From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue May 21 11:03:36 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 21 May 2002 13:03:36 -0500 Subject: The list is now officially open! Message-ID: <1022004216.2630.TMDA@dd-b.net> The Dragaera list is now officially open for business! -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From ahovey at caris.com Tue May 21 10:57:12 2002 From: ahovey at caris.com (Adam Hovey) Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 14:57:12 -0300 Subject: First Question Message-ID: <017d01c200f0$ef68f7a0$b9c8a8c0@caris.priv> I was re-reading my copy of Yendi last night and I noticed it said the book was dedicated to a person named Reen. Trying not to sound like a complete dolt or anything but I don't know who that is and was wondering. Can someone clue in the clueless? Cheers Adam From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue May 21 15:45:34 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 15:45:34 -0700 Subject: Welcoem to the Dragaera List! In-Reply-To: <1022004073.2544.TMDA@dd-b.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020521154407.00a6f080@pop3.lvcm.com> At 01:01 PM 5/21/2002 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >The Dragaera mailing list, dragaera at dragaera.info, is now officially >open for use. Woo-hoo! Let's start off off-topic: >-- >David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test Is TMDA a joke I'm not getting, or is there actually a useful system for reducing spam? From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue May 21 15:46:48 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 15:46:48 -0700 Subject: First Question In-Reply-To: <017d01c200f0$ef68f7a0$b9c8a8c0@caris.priv> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020521154610.00a738e0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 02:57 PM 5/21/2002 -0300, Adam Hovey wrote: >I was re-reading my copy of Yendi last night and I noticed it said the >book was dedicated to a person named Reen. Trying not to sound like a >complete dolt or anything but I don't know who that is and was >wondering. Can someone clue in the clueless? The mother of my children, and the woman I married. We've been apart since nineteen and eighty-six. From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue May 21 20:45:35 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 22:45:35 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Welcoem to the Dragaera List! In-Reply-To: Steven Brust's message <5.1.0.14.0.20020521154407.00a6f080@pop3.lvcm.com> of 21 May 2002 References: <1022004073.2544.TMDA@dd-b.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020521154407.00a6f080@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <15595.5215.878067.131279@gw.dd-b.net> Steven Brust writes on 21 May 2002 at 15:45:34 -0700 > At 01:01 PM 5/21/2002 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > >The Dragaera mailing list, dragaera at dragaera.info, is now officially > >open for use. > > Woo-hoo! > > Let's start off off-topic: > > >David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test > > Is TMDA a joke I'm not getting, or is there actually a useful system for > reducing spam? http://software.libertine.org/tmda/ Whether it's "effective" is a matter of opinion. It does require considerable user preparation, and has the potential to cause great confusion. You have to configure it to understand every mailing list you're on and accept those messages. It inconveniences new correspondents very slightly (a confirmation email on their first message). Every time you deal with a new ecommerce site you have to think about things, or they won't be able to reach you. But it does reduce spam received a *lot*. And I'm probably going to reenable it this week. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed May 22 06:44:35 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 06:44:35 -0700 Subject: Welcoem to the Dragaera List! In-Reply-To: <15595.5215.878067.131279@gw.dd-b.net> References: <1022004073.2544.TMDA@dd-b.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020521154407.00a6f080@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020522064405.00a42260@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:45 PM 5/21/2002 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >But it does reduce spam received a *lot*. I think I'm for it. From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed May 22 16:05:04 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 22 May 2002 23:05:04 -0000 Subject: Dragaera subscriber list Message-ID: <20020522230504.12949.qmail@dd-b.net> adina at panix.com (email) ahovey at caris.com (email) alipkin at learnlink.emory.edu (email) Christopher_M_Kane at brown.edu (email) chuning88 at yahoo.com (email) corwin at mpls.cx (email) dd-b at dd-b.net (email) den at monger.net (email) dgf at dd-b.net (post) diony at idiom.com (email) ejpeterson at attbi.com (email) FelixEisen at aol.com (email) felix_strates at hotmail.com (email) goldfarb at ocf.berkeley.edu (email) laurel at windowseat.org (email) list__dragaera_info at nocomment.com.au (email) matthew at image.infodancer.org (email) mike at plokta.com (email) monty at montykins.com (email) mss2 at attbi.com (email) naraku at comcast.net (email) paoluzi at luna.mat.uniroma1.it (email) pddb at demesne.com (email) pendragon at vaxer.net (email) pereillo at optonline.net (email) rachael at dd-b.net (email) scs at di.org (email) skzb at dreamcafe.com (email) tiamat at tsoft.com (email) From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed May 22 18:15:56 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 22 May 2002 20:15:56 -0500 Subject: Archive changes Message-ID: <1022116556.16246.TMDA@dd-b.net> I just fixed a problem with the archive index (I think; we'll see if it *stays* fixed), and while I was at it did some work on the style sheet to make the archive look like the rest of the Dragaera site. (The archive is available off the list page at http://dragaera.info/dragaera-list/ ) -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From FelixEisen at aol.com Wed May 22 21:12:18 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 00:12:18 EDT Subject: Where's Mario? Message-ID: Well, there goes yet another pet theory out the window; Barritt was 'too good' well before the Interregnum. Ergo, Barritt's Great Weapon (i.e. Pathfinder) had to have been 'complete' before that point, which means that Pathfinder couldn't 'just be' Mario's soul cast into an object in a similar manner as Aliera's was. The mystery extends. ;) Knightmarshall Felix Surnamed Eisen, or "Iron Felix" Hand of Morr, The Order of Bones From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu May 23 05:41:10 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 05:41:10 -0700 Subject: Where's Mario? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020523054044.00a46d20@pop3.lvcm.com> At 12:12 AM 5/23/2002 -0400, FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: >Well, there goes yet another pet theory out the window; Barritt was 'too >good' well before the Interregnum. Ergo, Barritt's Great Weapon (i.e. >Pathfinder) had to have been 'complete' before that point, which means that >Pathfinder couldn't 'just be' Mario's soul cast into an object in a similar >manner as Aliera's was. > >The mystery extends. ;) Nice try, though. :-) From ahovey at caris.com Thu May 23 05:50:13 2002 From: ahovey at caris.com (Adam Hovey) Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 09:50:13 -0300 Subject: Where's Mario? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020523054044.00a46d20@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <004501c20258$61927140$b9c8a8c0@caris.priv> An interesting thought of my own on the subject, I had once considered Loiosh to be a reincarnation of Mario. Though I have never dug through the books to search for any evidence of this one way or another. As I said it is just a thought. I may some day attempt to justify it, but for now I'll just enjoy the books. Adam ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Brust" To: Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 9:41 AM Subject: Re: Where's Mario? At 12:12 AM 5/23/2002 -0400, FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: >Well, there goes yet another pet theory out the window; Barritt was 'too >good' well before the Interregnum. Ergo, Barritt's Great Weapon (i.e. >Pathfinder) had to have been 'complete' before that point, which means that >Pathfinder couldn't 'just be' Mario's soul cast into an object in a similar >manner as Aliera's was. > >The mystery extends. ;) Nice try, though. :-) From zizban at adelphia.net Mon May 27 14:29:06 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 17:29:06 -0400 Subject: Map? Message-ID: Hi all! I was curious if there was a map of Dragaera? Will one ever be published, or posted to the web site, even in an unofficial matter? Cheers! From monty at montykins.com Mon May 27 14:30:54 2002 From: monty at montykins.com (Monty Ashley) Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 14:30:54 -0700 Subject: Map? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I was curious if there was a map of Dragaera? Will one ever be > published, or > posted to the web site, even in an unofficial matter? There's one at the beginning of _Brokedown Palace_, but it only covers Fenario in any detail; most of Dragaera is relegated to a corner marked "Faerie". -Monty From zizban at adelphia.net Mon May 27 14:56:29 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 17:56:29 -0400 Subject: Map? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 5/27/02 5:30 PM, "Monty Ashley" wrote: >> I was curious if there was a map of Dragaera? Will one ever be >> published, or >> posted to the web site, even in an unofficial matter? > > There's one at the beginning of _Brokedown Palace_, but it only covers > Fenario in any detail; most of Dragaera is relegated to a corner marked > "Faerie". > > -Monty > Ya, I saw that one. I was curious about one of Empire. From eshivak at netzero.net Mon May 27 20:27:50 2002 From: eshivak at netzero.net (Eric Shivak) Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 23:27:50 -0400 Subject: Map? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi there, I'm new to the list! I was under the impression that "Brokedown Palace" did not take place on Dragaera, but was an "alternate universe" of some kind. If that's the case, can you take it as a given that the map is the same? Eric (Monty, Thanks for the reply! I meant to send this to the list, not to you directly!) -----Original Message----- From: Monty Ashley [mailto:monty at montykins.com] Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 5:31 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: RE: Map? > I was curious if there was a map of Dragaera? Will one ever be > published, or > posted to the web site, even in an unofficial matter? There's one at the beginning of _Brokedown Palace_, but it only covers Fenario in any detail; most of Dragaera is relegated to a corner marked "Faerie". -Monty From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Tue May 28 05:31:56 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 07:31:56 -0500 Subject: Map? References: Message-ID: <3CF378BC.5BB0F517@attbi.com> Brokedown Palace is set in what Dragaerans would call one of the "Easterner" kingdoms. There are strong hints that it involves Cawti's parentage--I'm pretty sure it's in the same cosmos. Hi, there, y'all. I'm new. Mia McDavid. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue May 28 05:59:06 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 05:59:06 -0700 Subject: Map? In-Reply-To: <3CF378BC.5BB0F517@attbi.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020528055844.00a7cec0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 07:31 AM 5/28/2002 -0500, Mia McDavid wrote: >Brokedown Palace is set in what Dragaerans would call one of the >"Easterner" kingdoms. There are strong hints that it involves Cawti's >parentage--I'm pretty sure it's in the same cosmos. Yeah, that's my opinion as well. Of course, I might be deceived. From rachael at dd-b.net Tue May 28 08:30:09 2002 From: rachael at dd-b.net (Rachael Lininger) Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 10:30:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Map? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020528055844.00a7cec0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: On May 28, Steven Brust said: >At 07:31 AM 5/28/2002 -0500, Mia McDavid wrote: >>Brokedown Palace is set in what Dragaerans would call one of the >>"Easterner" kingdoms. There are strong hints that it involves Cawti's >>parentage--I'm pretty sure it's in the same cosmos. > >Yeah, that's my opinion as well. Of course, I might be deceived. Authors are easily confused. When one is cooking with paprika, how does one decide whether to use sweet or half-sharp? Rachael -- Rachael From the Dilbert Newsletter: Lininger "You should talk to her. rachael@ She is a minefield of information." clue-server.net From zizban at adelphia.net Tue May 28 08:34:15 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 11:34:15 -0400 Subject: Map? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 5/28/02 11:30 AM, "Rachael Lininger" wrote: > On May 28, Steven Brust said: > >> At 07:31 AM 5/28/2002 -0500, Mia McDavid wrote: >>> Brokedown Palace is set in what Dragaerans would call one of the >>> "Easterner" kingdoms. There are strong hints that it involves Cawti's >>> parentage--I'm pretty sure it's in the same cosmos. >> >> Yeah, that's my opinion as well. Of course, I might be deceived. > > Authors are easily confused. > > When one is cooking with paprika, how does one decide whether to use > sweet or half-sharp? > > Rachael > > -- > Rachael From the Dilbert Newsletter: > Lininger "You should talk to her. > rachael@ She is a minefield of information." > clue-server.net > > Speaking as an author myself, I can agree with the fact we're easily confused, on top of that, I'm an English Major, which just makes matters worse :-) So Steve, why did you include a map in the Brokedown Palace? Was it an excuse to use Grateful Dead songs on a map? From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue May 28 09:15:00 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 09:15:00 -0700 Subject: Map? In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020528055844.00a7cec0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020528091258.00a70ce0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:30 AM 5/28/2002 -0500, Rachael Lininger wrote: >When one is cooking with paprika, how does one decide whether to use >sweet or half-sharp? Actually, that's pretty easy. If you are *cooking* you use the sweet. If you are *seasoning* you use the half-sweet or hot. Sweet is used like curry, by the tablespoon, as an ingredient. A little bit of either of the others can be used to add some bite. Hot is wonderful for sprinkling on eggs. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue May 28 09:16:42 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 09:16:42 -0700 Subject: Map? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020528091540.00a6e590@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:34 AM 5/28/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: >So Steve, why did you include a map in the Brokedown Palace? Was it an >excuse to use Grateful Dead songs on a map? That was most of it, yes. Also, it was only later that I admitted to myself that I really didn't like maps in fantasy novels. They are always really detailed in the areas the characters visit, and almost blank everywhere else. That annoys me. From zizban at adelphia.net Tue May 28 09:29:32 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 12:29:32 -0400 Subject: Map? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020528091540.00a6e590@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: On 5/28/02 12:16 PM, "Steven Brust" wrote: > At 11:34 AM 5/28/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: > >> So Steve, why did you include a map in the Brokedown Palace? Was it an >> excuse to use Grateful Dead songs on a map? > > That was most of it, yes. Also, it was only later that I admitted to > myself that I really didn't like maps in fantasy novels. They are always > really detailed in the areas the characters visit, and almost blank > everywhere else. That annoys me. > > I can buy that. That makes a lot of sense, when I think about it. You said in Dzurlord that "The continent on which the Empire rests is roughly the shape of Europe, but twice the size, and the Empire encompasses (at the moment) more than half of it." Is this valid? Anyway, thanks for explaining your reasons for no map! From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue May 28 21:00:36 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 28 May 2002 21:00:36 -0700 Subject: Map? In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020528091540.00a6e590@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020528210013.00a4ee30@pop3.lvcm.com> > > >You said in Dzurlord that "The continent on which the Empire rests is >roughly the shape of Europe, but twice the size, and the Empire encompasses >(at the moment) more than half of it." Is this valid? I think so. From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed May 29 13:02:44 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 29 May 2002 15:02:44 -0500 Subject: Phatic interjectives Message-ID: <1022702564.5017.TMDA@dd-b.net> While scanning in the text of Jhereg (yes, Steven knew I was doing this before he read this message) I noticed a certain amusing and I'm sure intentional variablity in the spelling of "hmmm", having to do with the number of m's present. Then today I stumbled across a link to this paper investigating a closely related phenomenon on the web, and I just can't resist sharing. http://www.cs.unm.edu/~dlchao/flake/whee/index.html#rothman00 -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From dgf at dd-b.net Wed May 29 15:17:02 2002 From: dgf at dd-b.net (dgf at dd-b.net) Date: 29 May 2002 22:17:02 -0000 Subject: Dragaera subscriber list Message-ID: <20020529221702.9796.qmail@dd-b.net> adia at hellug.gr (email) =?iso-8859-7?B?wevd7uHt5PHv8iDE6eHs4e303+Tn8g==?= adina at panix.com (email) AeSedaiRi at aol.com (email) aheyman at rcn.com (email) "Adam Heyman" ahovey at caris.com (email) alan at 5sc.net (email) "Alan" alipkin at learnlink.emory.edu (email) arcangelxiii at angelfire.com (email) "Daryl Berry" BEERcons at aol.com (email) BEERcons at aol.com Beldarrin at aol.com (email) Beldarrin at aol.com bertowud at gator.net (email) briandmichelle at yahoo.com (email) Brian and Michelle Baskett Christopher_M_Kane at brown.edu (email) chuning88 at yahoo.com (email) corwin at mpls.cx (email) (Corwin Brust) cwalker at johnadamsmortgage.com (email) "Cal Walker" dan-tain_ishanti at attbi.com (email) "Brad Crawford" david.lish at sega.com (email) David Lish dd-b at dd-b.net (email) (David Dyer-Bennet) den at monger.net (email) dgf at dd-b.net (post) diony at idiom.com (email) divyasatyam at satyam.net.in (email) "Divya" ejpeterson at attbi.com (email) eshivak at netzero.net (email) "Eric Shivak" FelixEisen at aol.com (email) felix_strates at hotmail.com (email) (Felix Strates) gaertk at aol.com (email) Gaertk at aol.com gaku169 at hotmail.com (email) "Denis Berthelsen" geewiz at mac.com (email) Glenn Ellingson goldfarb at ocf.berkeley.edu (email) (David Goldfarb) grapawy at yahoo.com (email) Gregory Rapawy hhertzof at panix.com (email) Hilary Hertzoff igalbraith at ozonline.com.au (email) igalbraith at ozonline.com.au (Ian Galbraith) jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca (email) James and Mary Burbidge jbdelong at uclink.berkeley.edu (email) Brad DeLong jimkatz at ix.netcom.com (email) Jim Katz jmellby at attbi.com (email) "John R. Mellby" joel.davis at thedailytimes.com (email) "Joel Davis" joelynch at inreach.com (email) "Joe Lynch" jtoth at megrez.org (email) Jim Toth kknolte at ecity.net (email) K Kuhn l3iol2iot at hotmail.com (email) "Chuck Evans Jr" lairdb at email.com (email) "L. Broadfield" laurel at windowseat.org (email) (Laurel Krahn) lisa at spindot.com (email) "Lisa Grant Coffin" list__dragaera_info at nocomment.com.au (email) matthew at image.infodancer.org (email) mduda at oddpost.com (email) Matthew Duda mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (email) Mia McDavid mike at plokta.com (email) monty at montykins.com (email) moodygrrl at earthlink.net (email) "Lori Reeder" mporter at rogers.com (email) "Mark Porter" mss2 at attbi.com (email) mvillar2424 at earthlink.net (email) "Marcos Villaroman" naraku at comcast.net (email) nathan at player.org (email) "Nathan P. Bardsley" nthuleen at students.wisc.edu (email) Nancy Thuleen paoluzi at luna.mat.uniroma1.it (email) pddb at demesne.com (email) (Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet) pendragon at vaxer.net (email) pereillo at optonline.net (email) pmgardne at earthlink.net (email) "Paul Gardner" rachael at dd-b.net (email) (Rachael Lininger) Raellew at aol.com (email) Raellew at aol.com randomhonky at hotmail.com (email) "T J" rsuitor at cjwrfs.net (email) Richard Suitor ryan at fncinc.com (email) "Ryan Cogan" scs at di.org (email) skzb at dreamcafe.com (email) (Steven Brust) sraun at fireopal.org (email) Scott Raun terrick at cox.net (email) "ryan" thefr0g at hotmail.com (email) "The Fr0g" tmer at eudoramail.com (email) "Barbara Baj" tyan at twcny.rr.com (email) tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) unitcancellation at hotmail.com (email) "Alex Nixon" vidroth at hotmail.com (email) "Chris Bisanar" yhcrana13 at hotmail.com (email) "A. Nonymous" zizban at adelphia.net (email) Chris Turkel From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed May 29 16:28:58 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 29 May 2002 18:28:58 -0500 Subject: Subscriber list posting Message-ID: <1022714938.13612.TMDA@dd-b.net> A couple of people have inquired about (or asked that we stop) the subscriber list posting. I have not done that, but I thought I'd post a couple of comments on it. First of all, we did discuss this before starting the list, and while we recognize that it can result in people receiving spam, we also felt it had a lot of benefits. My personal position is that community discussions work better if people feel like they know who's around. We did realize this would be an issue, so we made sure to note it in the official rules, available on the web and mailed to each subscriber when they sign up. I've made a multi-year trial of spam coming to addresses harvested by web-crawlers, and it took over a year for the first spam to show up, and after that first batch, no more has shown up for over half a year so far. Obviously there's going to be at least some randomness in where they look for addresses. Also, this mailing list (and most mailing lists) has an archive on the web, so crawlers can find the addresses there anyway. However, I realized there was an easy thing I could change that wouldn't hurt the good parts a bit so far as I can see, and would make it at least a little less possible for spammers to pick up the list. I have changed the script so that it changes the "@" in each email address into " (at) ". The next time it appears, it should be in the new format. And the posting frequency was originally conceived to be once a month, and I will drop it to that soon -- although I must admit I'm fascinated to watch the fast growth of the subscriber list. I'd also like to recommend that people who want not to see spam consider installing something like spamassassin or TMDA, which seem to generally be thought to greatly cut down on the amount of spam you ever seen. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From zizban at adelphia.net Wed May 29 20:01:01 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 23:01:01 -0400 Subject: Phatic interjectives In-Reply-To: <1022702564.5017.TMDA@dd-b.net> Message-ID: On 5/29/02 4:02 PM, "David Dyer-Bennet" wrote: > While scanning in the text of Jhereg (yes, Steven knew I was doing > this before he read this message) I noticed a certain amusing and I'm > sure intentional variablity in the spelling of "hmmm", having to do > with the number of m's present. > > Then today I stumbled across a link to this paper investigating a > closely related phenomenon on the web, and I just can't resist > sharing. > > http://www.cs.unm.edu/~dlchao/flake/whee/index.html#rothman00 Wow, that's, um, ah, hmmmm...interesting! These people have way, way too much time on their hands! From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu May 30 06:50:06 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 06:50:06 -0700 Subject: Phatic interjectives In-Reply-To: <1022702564.5017.TMDA@dd-b.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020530064917.00a3d770@pop3.lvcm.com> At 03:02 PM 5/29/2002 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >Then today I stumbled across a link to this paper investigating a >closely related phenomenon on the web, and I just can't resist >sharing. > >http://www.cs.unm.edu/~dlchao/flake/whee/index.html#rothman00 Okay, now that is *weird* I can't decide if these are people with too much time on their hands, or kindred spirits. Both, I guess. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu May 30 06:52:04 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 06:52:04 -0700 Subject: Subscriber list posting In-Reply-To: <1022714938.13612.TMDA@dd-b.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020530065139.00a46600@pop3.lvcm.com> At 06:28 PM 5/29/2002 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >A couple of people have inquired about (or asked that we stop) the >subscriber list posting. I have not done that, but I thought I'd post >a couple of comments on it. > I like the like posting, but I'm not fanatical about it. From eshivak at netzero.net Thu May 30 18:48:28 2002 From: eshivak at netzero.net (eshivak) Date: Thu, 30 May 2002 21:48:28 -0400 Subject: Map? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020528055844.00a7cec0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: Methinks tis time to reread "Palace". It's been more than a few years and I guess that it *is* true that the memory is the first to go... Eric -----Original Message----- From: Steven Brust [mailto:skzb at dreamcafe.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 8:59 AM To: Mia McDavid; eshivak at netzero.net Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Map? At 07:31 AM 5/28/2002 -0500, Mia McDavid wrote: >Brokedown Palace is set in what Dragaerans would call one of the >"Easterner" kingdoms. There are strong hints that it involves Cawti's >parentage--I'm pretty sure it's in the same cosmos. Yeah, that's my opinion as well. Of course, I might be deceived. From usagigoya at hotmail.com Tue Jun 4 14:50:34 2002 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 21:50:34 +0000 Subject: new to list Message-ID: Is it true that Paths of the Dead is supposed to be released by Tor in November 2002? What's the status on the next book to come out? How many of the Taltos series of novels had hard-cover printings? I thought I had seen one of the earlier books for sale in hard-cover on E-bay a while back. Any chance of the Ace novels in the series being published in limited edition hard-cover versions with jacket layout which matched up with the Tor hard-covers? Abayo, Steve _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Jun 4 14:54:50 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 17:54:50 -0400 Subject: new to list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I believe Dragon was the first hardcover, all the rest before were paper back. The first three (?) books have been reprinted in a big trade paper back. I just say it the other day at Walden Books. On Tuesday, June 4, 2002, at 05:50 PM, Steve Hubbell wrote: > dragaera at dragaera.info -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Jun 4 15:36:09 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 15:36:09 -0700 Subject: new to list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020604153434.00a3d260@pop3.lvcm.com> At 09:50 PM 6/4/2002 +0000, Steve Hubbell wrote: >Is it true that Paths of the Dead is supposed to be released by Tor in >November 2002? What's the status on the next book to come out? Yes, that is true. The other two books are completed in first draft, but still have a fair bit of work to do on revisions. As far as I know, they are not yet scheduled. >How many of the Taltos series of novels had hard-cover printings? Issola and Dragon. This ingores book club editions, because I don't know about those. >Any chance of the Ace novels in the series being published in limited >edition hard-cover versions with jacket layout which matched up with the >Tor hard-covers? I have no idea. From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Jun 4 17:45:28 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 20:45:28 -0400 Subject: new to list & Re: Map Message-ID: <17FD6B72.3C4E9574.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Tue, 4 Jun 2002 ?6:36:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Steven Brust writes: > At 09:50 PM 6/4/2002 +0000, Steve Hubbell wrote: >> Any chance of the Ace novels in the series being >> published in limited edition hard-cover versions with >> jacket layout which matched up with the >> Tor hard-covers? > >I have no idea. I doubt it. From what I've seen, Ace almost never prints hardcovers in the first place, and they're already reprinting the early books in omnibuses: Jhereg, Yendi, and Teckla in _The Book of Jhereg_; Taltos and Phoenix in _The Book of Taltos_; and I expect Athyra and Orca in _The Book of Athyra_. Of course, if you ask me (not that anyone ever does), I'd put Taltos in the first omnbius, and make the second omnibus _The Book of Phoenix_ and have it contain Phoenix, Athyra, Orca, and Brokedown Palace so that BP doesn't get lost in the cracks (since both Ace and Tor seem to have fogotten that it's set in the same universe). To the left, the Tor hardbacks look *exactly* like bookclub editions, so if a bookclub *were* to reprint the Ace books, they'd match. ------ On 5/28/02 12:16 PM, "Steven Brust" wrote: > Also, it was only later that I admitted to myself that I > really didn't like maps in fantasy novels. They are > always really detailed in the areas the characters visit, > and almost blank everywhere else. That annoys me. In that case you still have two options: The Tolkien approach: make a map and meticulously label dozens of places the characters never visit, or have even heard of. If that sounds too much like work, just take whatever sketches you already have and instead of putting them in the next book, put them on your website. I'm willing to give credit for the irony of putting maps in the books where I didn't care where things were (Yendi and Brokedown Palace), and omitting them from the books where I really needed them (Dragon and Phoenix Guards). However, I'd really like a map of the whole Empire, because I've got this mental image of the Empire looking like the east and midwest US with the Eastern kingdoms on the other side of the Rockies, which is obviously backwards at the very least, but I just can't shake it. One final question: is Rakeland doing the cover art for Viscount? If so, could you tell the nice folks at Tor that I might be interested in buying a promotional poster with such artwork? --KG From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Jun 4 18:29:20 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 18:29:20 -0700 Subject: new to list & Re: Map In-Reply-To: <17FD6B72.3C4E9574.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020604182424.00a49dd0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 08:45 PM 6/4/2002 -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > BP doesn't get lost in the cracks (since both Ace and >Tor seem to have fogotten that it's set in the same >universe). I *think* Tor is planning to reprint BP, though I won't swear to it. I have a half memory of having signed a contract for that. >The Tolkien approach: make a map and meticulously label >dozens of places the characters never visit, or have even >heard of. Tolkien's map is one of my examples of fantasy maps with too much white space where the characters have never been. >If that sounds too much like work, just take whatever >sketches you already have and instead of putting them in >the next book, put them on your website. Hmm. I don't see that as being much different. Though, I admit, it is not impossible that something like that could happen someday. But then, of course, it makes it harder to do fun things like having Vlad refer to Kieron's Sea being to the south, and Paarfi refer to it being to the north. >I'm willing to give credit for the irony of putting maps in >the books where I didn't care where things were (Yendi and >Brokedown Palace), and omitting them from the books where I >really needed them (Dragon and Phoenix Guards). The Yendi one irked me a bit. I sent them both in with a note saying, "Do you think putting one of these in the book would be worthwhile?" And, instead of answering me, they printed them both. >One final question: is Rakeland doing the cover art for >Viscount? Nope. But I like the cover. Piro (The Viscount) looks incredibly cute. From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Jun 4 19:20:26 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 22:20:26 -0400 Subject: new to list & Re: Map In-Reply-To: <17FD6B72.3C4E9574.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: I would like to see a reprint of BDP and another Fenario book (Steve, hit, hint!) On Tuesday, June 4, 2002, at 08:45 PM, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > dragaera at dragaera.info -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From rachael at daedala.net Tue Jun 4 20:02:45 2002 From: rachael at daedala.net (Rachael Lininger) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 22:02:45 -0500 (CDT) Subject: new to list & Re: Map In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jun 4, Chris Turkel said: >I would like to see a reprint of BDP and another Fenario book (Steve, >hit, hint!) No attacking the author. At least wait until the revisions are done. Now, if you were talking about hitting Paarfi.... Rachael -- Rachael From the Dilbert Newsletter: Lininger "You should talk to her. rachael@ She is a minefield of information." daedala.net From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Jun 4 20:16:22 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 23:16:22 -0400 Subject: new to list & Re: Map In-Reply-To: <17FD6B72.3C4E9574.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <9C6422DC-7832-11D6-8D09-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Can you tell I'm an english major? I can't type! I actually (gasp!) don't like the Khraaven Romances. I read the first book and decided against reading the rest. Of course I don't like Thw Three Musketeers, either. Go figure. But I do like The Count of Monte Christo. On Tuesday, June 4, 2002, at 08:45 PM, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > dragaera at dragaera.info -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From Starshadw at aol.com Tue Jun 4 20:31:01 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 23:31:01 EDT Subject: Map and RPGs Message-ID: <7f.27161ca4.2a2edff5@aol.com> Bringing Tolkien back up, I for one am like Bilbo - I love maps. I love them, be they highly detailed or sketchy. Obviously, because I am anal-retentive and detail-oriented, the more details on the map, the better. So that places me firmly in the camp of those who would really like a good map. One of the reasons I'd like a good map bring me to my second point. I had contemplated sending a private Email to Mr. Brust, but then thought this would be a much better way to get an answer since, if the answer is "Yes, more power to you" then everyone here would know (and might then express an interest in participating), and if the answer is, "No, and what drug were you on when you thought of this?" then everyone would also know and hopefully the question wouldn't get asked again. :) I would dearly love to create a website where people could role-play (original characters only - any characters in the novels themselves would only show up as NPCs and would not be available for players to role-play) in Mr. Brust's world: what I see right now would have both chat- and message-based components. I have not decided what game system to go with yet: the sorcery is kinda giving me fits, so I'm trying to come up with something that allows for the incredible flexibility yet also deals with the limitations. In fact, if it ever happens, it's entirely possible I may use components from different systems....White Wolf's magic system might work here, whereas a D&D or GURPS system would work for the other aspects of the game. Anyhow, to get back to the actual question (for Mr. Brust): it is permissible to do this? I know there are many authors who are twitchy on this (because of copyright isues), so I don't want to do it if you do not care for the idea. I do know there is one MUSH/MUD out there, but that particular type of RPGing has never appealed to me. Frankly, I'm not even sure if what I envision is even possible, but I certainly don't want to pour more energy into thinking about it if it's not even a possibility. Merci, Stacy -still waiting for the paperback version of Issola to come out- From Beldarrin at aol.com Tue Jun 4 20:32:00 2002 From: Beldarrin at aol.com (Beldarrin at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 23:32:00 EDT Subject: new to list & Re: Map Message-ID: <126.11afd414.2a2ee030@aol.com> Damn it! I feel like such a newbie here! My Taltos-Brust-Dragaera-etc. knowledge base is just about nil compared to everyone else's. ::pouts:: Guess I'll just have to try and read a little quicker... ::wanders off, "Orca" in hand, still sulking:: From Beldarrin at aol.com Tue Jun 4 20:45:06 2002 From: Beldarrin at aol.com (Beldarrin at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 23:45:06 EDT Subject: Map and RPGs Message-ID: <102.162367a0.2a2ee342@aol.com> Wow! I think that having an RP going on is a splendid idea. (That is, of course, if it gets the thumbs up from Monsieur Brust.) I've been meaning to find me a new group of RPers, and I've failed miserably. (My character, Bel, now runs a place called Cafe Taltos, which she's been taking care of for almost five years, before I even knew who Steven Brust was. ~ No offense there, of course. My life has been enriched with my newfound fountain of experience. ) But anyway, I'm all for the idea. Just wanted to let you know you've got some support on it. I know it's kind of like cheating to take a world that's already been created and throw your characters into it, but I think it'd be pretty spiff. ~ Steph (who, by the way, is also waiting for "Issola" to come out in paperback, but is seriously thinking about giving up and purchasing it in hardback, even though it's infinitely more difficult to read in bed when the book's so large and so heavy! ::pouts some more, just for good measure::) From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Jun 4 20:57:44 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 20:57:44 -0700 Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: <7f.27161ca4.2a2edff5@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020604205558.00a4b210@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:31 PM 6/4/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >I would dearly love to create a website where people could role-play I hear stories about writers losing copyright over stuff like this. I dunno. As far as I'm concerned, as long as no money is changing hands, it doesn't bother me. Thanks for asking. >-still waiting for the paperback version of Issola to come out- December, I think. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Jun 4 21:11:03 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 21:11:03 -0700 Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: <102.162367a0.2a2ee342@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020604210026.00a4b040@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:45 PM 6/4/2002 -0400, Beldarrin at aol.com wrote: > > >~ Steph (who, by the way, is also waiting for "Issola" to come out in >paperback, It is taking Tor a *long* time to bring out the paperback. This is because the hardcover has been selling extraordinarily well, and they aren't stupid. To be honest, I have mixed feelings about this. I like the idea of the books being available as cheaply as possible as quickly as possible. I'm all for libraries and used book stores. On the other hand, paperback sales (for everyone, not just me) have been catastrophic since the jobbers and wholesalers have all bought been up. Writers a lot better than I am have had to get day jobs. The only reason I have been able to continue writing full time is because, for some reason (I think Tor has something to do with it), my hardcover sales took off just about the same time as the paperback market collapsed. So, as I say, I have mixed feelings. I really hate the idea of having to get a day job, but I'm not entirely happy with asking people to pay hardcover prices. So my tentative conclusion is: I'll write them, and let Tor worry about selling them, and let the readers do as they think best. Anyway, those are my thoughts on the paperback delay, in case anyone is interested. From joelynch at inreach.com Tue Jun 4 21:22:20 2002 From: joelynch at inreach.com (Joe Lynch) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 21:22:20 -0700 Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: <7f.27161ca4.2a2edff5@aol.com> Message-ID: Try Hero System. It has a ton of flexibility for magic and has the same skill system you see in GURPS and D&D 3RD Ed. Monte Cook, the primary behind D&D 3RD Ed. used to edit Hero. And I think it's a great idea. A tool I've used for online games is Open RPG, which might work for what you're describing for gaming sessions. >I have not decided what game system to go with >yet: the sorcery is kinda giving me fits, so I'm trying to come up with >something that allows for the incredible flexibility yet also deals with the >limitations. In fact, if it ever happens, it's entirely possible I may use >components from different systems....White Wolf's magic system might work >here, whereas a D&D or GURPS system would work for the other aspects of the >game. From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Jun 4 21:23:06 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 23:23:06 -0500 Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020604210026.00a4b040@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <102.162367a0.2a2ee342@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020604210026.00a4b040@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <20020605042306.GB1317@infodancer.org> On Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 09:11:03PM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: > So, as I say, I have mixed feelings. I really hate the idea of having to > get a day job, but I'm not entirely happy with asking people to pay > hardcover prices. Your books are worth hardcover prices. Even in the tiny little barely-an-inch-thick hardcovers that Dragon and Issola used. If you must feel guilt in this manner, write longer manuscripts such that the hardcovers contain even more of your wonderful writing. (Yet you must do this without taking substantially longer per-novel. Or reducing editorial quality. A quandrary, this is.) -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 240 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20020604/04af4189/attachment.pgp From singram at videotron.ca Tue Jun 4 21:25:33 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 00:25:33 -0400 Subject: Map and RPGs References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020604210026.00a4b040@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <000901c20c49$0884c4e0$17ecca18@ingram> Okay, still getting used to this email list; I responded to a previous email directly to Mr. Brust, not the list. I gather by 'jobbers and wholesalers' you're referring to small bookstores and their ilk? I can understand why this upsets people, but I don't understand how this would affect paperback sales. Is it the case that the larger chains are pushing the top-ten authors (Clancy, King, etc...) and not stocking the lesser known authors? Or is it that their increased buying power is forcing publishers to sell their wares at a lower price? Thanks! -Scott > At 11:45 PM 6/4/2002 -0400, Beldarrin at aol.com wrote: > > > > > >~ Steph (who, by the way, is also waiting for "Issola" to come out in > >paperback, > > It is taking Tor a *long* time to bring out the paperback. This is because > the hardcover has been selling extraordinarily well, and they aren't stupid. > > To be honest, I have mixed feelings about this. I like the idea of the > books being available as cheaply as possible as quickly as possible. I'm > all for libraries and used book stores. > > On the other hand, paperback sales (for everyone, not just me) have been > catastrophic since the jobbers and wholesalers have all bought been > up. Writers a lot better than I am have had to get day jobs. The only > reason I have been able to continue writing full time is because, for some > reason (I think Tor has something to do with it), my hardcover sales took > off just about the same time as the paperback market collapsed. > > So, as I say, I have mixed feelings. I really hate the idea of having to > get a day job, but I'm not entirely happy with asking people to pay > hardcover prices. > > So my tentative conclusion is: I'll write them, and let Tor worry about > selling them, and let the readers do as they think best. > > Anyway, those are my thoughts on the paperback delay, in case anyone is > interested. > > > From joelynch at inreach.com Tue Jun 4 21:26:30 2002 From: joelynch at inreach.com (Joe Lynch) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 21:26:30 -0700 Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020604210026.00a4b040@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: I fork over for my favorite authors.... (Mr. Brust, GRR Martin, Glen Cook) Besides, I reread books, so it's nice having something that won't fall apart in a year or two. It'd be nice if the books were thicker though. :) -----Original Message----- From: Steven Brust >So, as I say, I have mixed feelings. I really hate the idea of having to >get a day job, but I'm not entirely happy with asking people to pay >hardcover prices. >So my tentative conclusion is: I'll write them, and let Tor worry about >selling them, and let the readers do as they think best. >Anyway, those are my thoughts on the paperback delay, in case anyone is >interested. From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Jun 4 21:33:34 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 23:33:34 -0500 Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: <000901c20c49$0884c4e0$17ecca18@ingram> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020604210026.00a4b040@pop3.lvcm.com> <000901c20c49$0884c4e0$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: <20020605043334.GA1797@infodancer.org> On Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 12:25:33AM -0400, Scott Ingram wrote: > I gather by 'jobbers and wholesalers' you're referring to small bookstores > and their ilk? I can understand why this upsets people, but I don't > understand how this would affect paperback sales. Is it the case that the > larger chains are pushing the top-ten authors (Clancy, King, etc...) and not > stocking the lesser known authors? Or is it that their increased buying > power is forcing publishers to sell their wares at a lower price? It's certainly not lower prices. Paperbacks have been going UP. I have heard it expressed that publishers are having trouble making money on small-run paperbacks, and thus are reluctant to publish them. They are pushing to either move their authors to hardcover (stepping up) or cease publishing them at all (stepping down), whereas in the past it was possible to stay in the middle (midlist). It's annoying, because new authors basically get one shot at a major hit, and if it fails, drop off the face of the earth. Established midlist authors who have proven that they won't get that major hit just disappear, no chance given. I'm not sure what's causing this problem. I just wish it would stop. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 240 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20020604/310f11ac/attachment.pgp From shapeshifter13 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 4 21:40:27 2002 From: shapeshifter13 at hotmail.com (Christopher Gunning) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 04:40:27 +0000 Subject: [dragaera] RPGs Message-ID: Hi all (and Stacy in particular), >Anyhow, to get back to the actual question (for Mr. Brust): it is >permissible to do this? I know there are many authors who are twitchy >on >this (because of copyright isues), so I don't want to do it if you >do not >care for the idea. I do know there is one MUSH/MUD out there, >but that >particular type of RPGing has never appealed to me. For what it is worth, i would also like to throw my lot in and help you. I was simeltaneously thinking about dropping a line to Mr Brust about an rpg... something fan based and specifically not challenging any intellectual property. I would particularly like to work with the D&D 3E engine but would be cool with whatever direction you are keen on. If you decide to go with White Wolf, I may be of help since I freelance for the company (mostly Vampire). (I threw a subject tag in 'cause I am sometimes missing the Dragaera e-mails as the get mixed up with the copious amounts of junk mail out there. Hopefully, it will catch on) -Chris jd Gunning SPQR _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From ijamie at sympatico.ca Tue Jun 4 21:45:26 2002 From: ijamie at sympatico.ca (Ian sympatico) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 00:45:26 -0400 Subject: Map and RPGs References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020604210026.00a4b040@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <002b01c20c4b$cff7cfc0$e4835f41@idirect.com> I originally started buying the books with Jhereg which only came out in paperback. So, for continuity sake I would like to complete the set in paperback. As far as anal-retentiveness, all my paperbacks are in a database listed by author, publisher and series number. This comes in handy when you are trying to remember which book comes next when you re-read them. By the way, showing how much attention I pay I never noticed any maps in the paperbacks I bought. Were the maps only in the hardcover editions? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Brust" To: ; ; Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 12:11 AM Subject: Re: Map and RPGs > At 11:45 PM 6/4/2002 -0400, Beldarrin at aol.com wrote: > > > > > >~ Steph (who, by the way, is also waiting for "Issola" to come out in > >paperback, > > It is taking Tor a *long* time to bring out the paperback. This is because > the hardcover has been selling extraordinarily well, and they aren't stupid. > > To be honest, I have mixed feelings about this. I like the idea of the > books being available as cheaply as possible as quickly as possible. I'm > all for libraries and used book stores. > > On the other hand, paperback sales (for everyone, not just me) have been > catastrophic since the jobbers and wholesalers have all bought been > up. Writers a lot better than I am have had to get day jobs. The only > reason I have been able to continue writing full time is because, for some > reason (I think Tor has something to do with it), my hardcover sales took > off just about the same time as the paperback market collapsed. > > So, as I say, I have mixed feelings. I really hate the idea of having to > get a day job, but I'm not entirely happy with asking people to pay > hardcover prices. > > So my tentative conclusion is: I'll write them, and let Tor worry about > selling them, and let the readers do as they think best. > > Anyway, those are my thoughts on the paperback delay, in case anyone is > interested. > > > From mporter at rogers.com Tue Jun 4 21:45:04 2002 From: mporter at rogers.com (Mark Porter) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 00:45:04 -0400 Subject: new to list & Re: Map References: <126.11afd414.2a2ee030@aol.com> Message-ID: <001001c20c4b$c2a578e0$59a97218@slnt.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Ha! Excellent. And I was worried /I/ was the only one. In fact, I have only read 'The Phoenix Guards', 'Five Hundred Years After', and just earlier today I finished 'Jhereg'. I should have 'Yendi' and 'Teckla' done by the end of the week, though - but I guess my point is that you shouldn't worry. I doubt anyone here will hold it against you. Now, if you were to send a message to the list saying something like - oh, I don't know.. 'OMG whats up with that sethra chick is she like zombie or something!?!? shes pretty scary hahahah oh yeah and what kind of a name is vlad tatlos he must be liek a russian viking LOL!!!' ..then you might have a bit of a problem on your hands. -Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: > Damn it! I feel like such a newbie here! My Taltos-Brust-Dragaera-etc. > knowledge base is just about nil compared to everyone else's. ::pouts:: > Guess I'll just have to try and read a little quicker... ::wanders off, > "Orca" in hand, still sulking:: From shapeshifter13 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 4 21:54:10 2002 From: shapeshifter13 at hotmail.com (Christopher Gunning) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 04:54:10 +0000 Subject: [dragaera] How far will it go? Message-ID: Mr Brust, I was wondering how far you plan to take the Taltos series? I have been eating up your books since I found a beaten up copy of Jhereg (I really liked the cover) and have been wondering if you plan on going through the entire cycle? Do you envision a specific climax to the series or letting the books fall where they may? It seems to me that you have been writing the Taltos books one novel at a time, allowing the books to dictate their own conclsuions and, at this stage of the game, can you see yourself writing a final chapter to the series? (er, does that make sense? I apologise if it doesn't... I'm having trouble wording my questions correctly) Oh, and by the way, you were at a small convention in Columbus, Mississippi way back in 1995, no? Thanks for your time. -Chris jd Gunning SPQR _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From frank at exit.com Tue Jun 4 21:55:37 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 21:55:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: <002b01c20c4b$cff7cfc0$e4835f41@idirect.com> Message-ID: <200206050455.g554tbtk003096@realtime.exit.com> Ian sympatico wrote: > I originally started buying the books with Jhereg which only came out in > paperback. So, for continuity sake I would like to complete the set in > paperback. As far as anal-retentiveness, all my paperbacks are in a database > listed by author, publisher and series number. This comes in handy when you > are trying to remember which book comes next when you re-read them. > By the way, showing how much attention I pay I never noticed any maps in the > paperbacks I bought. Were the maps only in the hardcover editions? Nope, my (mass market paperback) copy of Brokedown Palace has the map. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From frank at exit.com Tue Jun 4 22:05:54 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 22:05:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: <20020605043334.GA1797@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <200206050505.g5555sQw006530@realtime.exit.com> Matthew Hunter wrote: > It's certainly not lower prices. Paperbacks have been going UP. Um, yeah. Sigh. > I have heard it expressed that publishers are having trouble making money on > small-run paperbacks, and thus are reluctant to publish them. They are pushing > to either move their authors to hardcover (stepping up) or cease publishing them > at all (stepping down), whereas in the past it was possible to stay in the middle > (midlist). One word: Remaindering. A pernicious practice that is one of the things killing the paperback industry. (Remaindering is where a store can buy lots of extra copies of a paperback, then if they don't sell, strip the cover off and send them back to the publisher for full credit. Books can get stripped straight out of the original box, without even hitting the shelves.) > I'm not sure what's causing this problem. I just wish it would stop. See above. Not to mention the big publishers that seem to be intent on killing their goose. I keep thinking that between just-in-time publishing and the Internet there _must_ be a way to satisfy both the authors and the readers, cutting those middlemen out of the loop. Haven't seen it happen yet, though. Oh, hi, SKZB! I've been reading your stuff since the beginning, with the original publication of Jhereg. I still have that paperback, although it's beginning to be a tad yellowed. (As am I, for that matter. :-/) You're one of my favorites. (My very favorite author of all time was Roger Zelazny. I got to meet him and hear him read just once, in Dallas a long time ago; he read his first "Croyd" story. I tell you, I miss him every time I pick up a book.) -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From nthuleen at students.wisc.edu Tue Jun 4 22:47:53 2002 From: nthuleen at students.wisc.edu (Nancy Thuleen) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 00:47:53 -0500 Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: <200206050505.g5555sQw006530@realtime.exit.com> References: <200206050505.g5555sQw006530@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: At 22:05 -0700 04.6.2002, Frank Mayhar wrote: > Oh, hi, SKZB! I've been reading your stuff since the beginning, with the > original publication of Jhereg. I still have that paperback, although it's > beginning to be a tad yellowed. (As am I, for that matter. :-/) You're > one of my favorites. At the risk of sounding fannish, well, me too! :) I bought Jhereg in 8th grade (late 1983), devoured it, and have purchased every book since. (Well, I missed out on The Gypsy, didn't know about it until a few years ago, but I think I have everything except the Liavek books now.) Yes, the first two books are pretty tattered by now, especially considering I reread the whole set every few years, usually when a new book comes out. For some reason Yendi looks a lot worse than Jhereg -- I must flip through it more often on rereads, looking for plot holes which I never find! I wonder if part of the reason SKZB's sales are doing so well (compared to others, as he said) is this "stay with him" approach -- unlike some authors where I may read one trilogy but not be too excited about standalones or whatever, I can't see myself *not* buying a Brust book the moment it's out. :) I would imagine the Brust attrition rate is pretty low ... and if he gains a few new readers every year, then the sales take off. Also, although I don't *ever* buy hardcovers, I've made exceptions for Brust, as well as for Zelazny (the latter Amber novels, which were new when I was reading them), and no one else. Which makes my bookshelves kind of lopsided (hardcovers at B and Z, but nothing in between), but I can live with that. Is Paths of the Dead coming out in hardcover, I assume? - Nancy. From corwin at mpls.cx Tue Jun 4 23:59:36 2002 From: corwin at mpls.cx (corwin at mpls.cx) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 01:59:36 -0500 Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: <200206050455.g554tbtk003096@realtime.exit.com> References: <002b01c20c4b$cff7cfc0$e4835f41@idirect.com> Message-ID: <3CFD7088.26505.5C3D3C7@localhost> On 4 Jun 2002 at 21:55, Frank Mayhar wrote: > Ian sympatico wrote: [CROPPED] > > By the way, showing how much attention I pay I never noticed any maps in the > > paperbacks I bought. Were the maps only in the hardcover editions? > > Nope, my (mass market paperback) copy of Brokedown Palace has the map. And the Original Ace publication of Yendi has the two which Steve was complaining about, earlier in this thread. -Corwin From zizban at adelphia.net Wed Jun 5 06:16:16 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 09:16:16 -0400 Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: <20020605042306.GB1317@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <6AC8527A-7886-11D6-89A5-00039386187A@adelphia.net> I'll buy hardcovers of books by authors I really like, including Steven Brust, Lawrence Watt-Evans and Robert Jordan, without hesitation because they are worth it. On a side note I got the ARC of Issola on Ebay, which was interesting, but I still purchased the hardcover when it came out a couple of weeks later. Now Tolkien's maps, though beautifully done, irritate me. He basicly said anything off to the east and south, off the map, were "darklands" and home to barbarians so everytime I looked at the map south of Gondor I always thought he should have written THIS IS WHERE THE WORLD ENDS. The maps in Yendi kind of made me scratch my head out the time. I'm glad I'm not the only one who was perplexed by them. -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From rachael at daedala.net Wed Jun 5 06:48:01 2002 From: rachael at daedala.net (Rachael Lininger) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 08:48:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: <000901c20c49$0884c4e0$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: On Jun 5, Scott Ingram said: >Okay, still getting used to this email list; I responded to a previous email >directly to Mr. Brust, not the list. > >I gather by 'jobbers and wholesalers' you're referring to small bookstores >and their ilk? Erm, no. I'm pretty sure Steve means the middlemen, who used to not be Ingram. The problem is that publishers don't sell their books directly to stores; they let the wholesalers do the distribution to retail outlets, like bookstores. The number of distributors has been shrinking. Now, if you can't get Ingram to carry something, you almost can't sell it at all. > I can understand why this upsets people, but I don't >understand how this would affect paperback sales. Is it the case that the >larger chains are pushing the top-ten authors (Clancy, King, etc...) and not >stocking the lesser known authors? Or is it that their increased buying >power is forcing publishers to sell their wares at a lower price? We are getting what is politely called a monopoly. Minneapolis just lost its regional distributor: http://www.bookmen.com/ http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:ROCXDSJDP-oC:www.startribune.com/stories/535/2616257.html+bookmen+wholesaler+minneapolis&hl=en&ie=utf-8 Rachael -- Rachael From the Dilbert Newsletter: Lininger "You should talk to her. rachael@ She is a minefield of information." daedala.net From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jun 5 07:25:57 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 07:25:57 -0700 Subject: [dragaera] How far will it go? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605072141.00a63650@pop3.lvcm.com> At 04:54 AM 6/5/2002 +0000, Christopher Gunning wrote: >Mr Brust, Make it Steve, okay? >I was wondering how far you plan to take the Taltos series? I have been >eating up your books since I found a beaten up copy of Jhereg (I really >liked the cover) and have been wondering if you plan on going through the >entire cycle? Do you envision a specific climax to the series or letting >the books fall where they may? I have bits and pieces of ideas for what happens to Vlad. I know what eventually becomes of him, and how he gets there. >It seems to me that you have been writing the Taltos books one novel at a >time, allowing the books to dictate their own conclsuions and, at this >stage of the game, can you see yourself writing a final chapter to the series? Here are some of the things that'll happen, in order of probability: 1) I die before finishing them 2) I get tired of them, and have enough integrity to stop writing them. 3) I get tired of them but continue writing them anyway, so they suck. 4) I don't get tired of them, and end up with nineteen Vlad books: 1 for each House, a first one called TALTOS, and a last one called THE LAST CONTRACT. At the moment, I'm under contract for two more, and I'm still enjoying the hell out of the little sonofabitch. >Oh, and by the way, you were at a small convention in Columbus, >Mississippi way back in 1995, no? I sure was. Had a blast, too. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jun 5 07:30:19 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 07:30:19 -0700 Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: <200206050505.g5555sQw006530@realtime.exit.com> References: <20020605043334.GA1797@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605072634.00a64c00@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:05 PM 6/4/2002 -0700, Frank Mayhar wrote: >One word: Remaindering. A pernicious practice that is one of the things >killing the paperback industry. Well, remaindering *is* pretty silly, but it's been going on for a lot longer than the paperback crunch. And in a sense, it actually helps: it permits smaller bookstores to take a chance with unknown authors. They know they can buy a box or so without risk. No, Rachel explained what has caused the real crunch. Instead of a lot of distributors working their areas and responding ("Hey, Jim, give us more westerns next time; people around here seem to like westerns") you have Ingrams, which gives you (the drug store with a book rack, or the airport, or whatever) the top ten NYT bestsellers and a few others that they pick out. >(My very favorite author of all time was Roger Zelazny. I got to meet >him and hear him read just once, in Dallas a long time ago; he read his >first "Croyd" story. I tell you, I miss him every time I pick up a book.) Me, too! From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jun 5 07:31:03 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 07:31:03 -0700 Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: References: <200206050505.g5555sQw006530@realtime.exit.com> <200206050505.g5555sQw006530@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605073044.00a66a90@pop3.lvcm.com> At 12:47 AM 6/5/2002 -0500, Nancy Thuleen wrote: >Is Paths of the Dead coming out in hardcover, I assume? Yep. From mss2 at attbi.com Wed Jun 5 07:41:10 2002 From: mss2 at attbi.com (Michael S. Schiffer) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 09:41:10 -0500 Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: <6AC8527A-7886-11D6-89A5-00039386187A@adelphia.net> References: <20020605042306.GB1317@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605093524.033a3f20@mail.attbi.com> At 09:16 AM 6/5/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: > >... >Now Tolkien's maps, though beautifully done, irritate me. He basicly said >anything off to the east and south, off the map, were "darklands" and home >to barbarians so everytime I looked at the map south of Gondor I always >thought he should have written THIS IS WHERE THE WORLD ENDS. >... It represented the part of the world then known to the peoples he was writing about, more or less. (The Eldar didn't do a lot of travelling outside the northwest of Middle-Earth, and neither did the people of Gondor by that time. Hobbits didn't even leave the Shire or Bree much.) European maps in the Middle Ages were similarly pretty vague and inaccurate about the rest of the world (though they were more willing to make things up to fill up the blank spaces). Mike From rachael at daedala.net Wed Jun 5 07:52:28 2002 From: rachael at daedala.net (Rachael Lininger) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 09:52:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605072634.00a64c00@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: On Jun 5, Steven Brust said: >At 10:05 PM 6/4/2002 -0700, Frank Mayhar wrote: > >>One word: Remaindering. A pernicious practice that is one of the things >>killing the paperback industry. > >Well, remaindering *is* pretty silly, but it's been going on for a lot >longer than the paperback crunch. It's still black necromancy. >And in a sense, it actually helps: it >permits smaller bookstores to take a chance with unknown authors. They >know they can buy a box or so without risk. The end may justify the means, though. I saw Dreamhaven doing that, sigh. In a weird way, mass-market paperbacks had the problem of digital copyright before digital got anywhere: the cost of the materials was _considered_ negligible (don't know if it actually was, as it is in digital); it's having that author's words you're paying for. >No, Rachel explained what has caused the real crunch. I wish my parents could spell. >Instead of a lot of distributors working their areas and responding >("Hey, Jim, give us more westerns next time; people around here seem to >like westerns") you have Ingrams, which gives you (the drug store with >a book rack, or the airport, or whatever) the top ten NYT bestsellers >and a few others that they pick out. I was going to say that that was a while back (drugstore and airport racks being of any use) and that the paperback market survived the collapse of the ID channels, and then I realized I didn't know if that was actually the case. Did sales actually survive, and the later consolidations kill them; or did they never quite recover, and stagger woozily to their extended demise? Rachael -- Rachael From the Dilbert Newsletter: Lininger "You should talk to her. rachael@ She is a minefield of information." daedala.net From Starshadw at aol.com Wed Jun 5 07:42:04 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 10:42:04 EDT Subject: Map and RPGs Message-ID: In a message dated 6/4/2002 9:58:13 PM Mountain Daylight Time, skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > I hear stories about writers losing copyright over stuff like this. I > dunno. As far as I'm concerned, as long as no money is changing hands, it > doesn't bother me. > -nodding- Yes. Let me be perfectly clear about this - anything I did as far as an RPG goes - website, maps, etc. - would belong to you. Anything ever created by anyone playing in said game would also belong to you. I/We would own nothing. Frankly, if you ever found anything useful, it would be flattering. I don't see that happening since there is no way possible for us to ever know your world as well as you - my anal-retentiveness demands that I remain as close to "canon" as possible so the first step would be to re-read the books carefully and take notes on how things "function" in your world. One thing that I would be certain to do would be to put your copyright notice on the website, along with a statement to the effect that everything and anything belonged to you. -thinks- We might even be able to create something along the lines of an agreement that people had to agree to in order to be able to play (like the software licenses where you have to click the "I Agree" button). Believe me, I have no desire nor intention of taking away your copyright. I would never exact a charge to anyone who wanted to role-play. The only thing I can see ever coming up would be that if suddenly this thing took off and the website got so enormous it was costing beaucoup bucks to keep it up (I know several fan-related websites that are this big and are in trouble because their owners never thought about this until it was too late. I know one person whose site costs them $200/month due to its size and the amount of traffic). In that case, I might ask for all of us (by "us" I refer to those participating in the game) to help chip in with the cost of keeping the website up and running. But there would be no profit involved whatsoever. I've never understood how people could charge for role-playing, nor how people could sit there and pay for it. To me, the nice thing about RPGs is that, once you have the basic books, you don't have to fork over more cash (you certainly can do so since all systems have a multitude of supplemental books) in order to enjoy role-playing. Ack! This went on longer than I intended. Stacy From Starshadw at aol.com Wed Jun 5 07:46:44 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 10:46:44 EDT Subject: Hardback vs. Paperback Message-ID: Actually, my reason for preferring paperbacks is simple - I can get more books on a bookshelf. :-) And I do re-read my books; I am just careful to be good to my paperbacks and I find I have no troubles with them lasting. In fact, I've got some paperbacks on my shelves that are 15-20 years old. But I, too, am about to break down and go buy the hardback. I'll just read it, then do what I always do when someone gifts me a hardback: take it to the used bookstore, turn it in for credit and get paperbacks. Of course, that would be after the paerback comes out. Stacy From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jun 5 07:56:21 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 07:56:21 -0700 Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605072634.00a64c00@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605075520.00a4c8e0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 09:52 AM 6/5/2002 -0500, Rachael Lininger wrote: > >No, Rachel explained what has caused the real crunch. > >I wish my parents could spell. Ooops. Sorry. >I was going to say that that was a while back (drugstore and airport >racks being of any use) and that the paperback market survived the >collapse of the ID channels, and then I realized I didn't know if that >was actually the case. Did sales actually survive, and the later >consolidations kill them; or did they never quite recover, and stagger >woozily to their extended demise? Good question. I don't know. I'm gonna try to talk Patrick into joining this list; he'd be the one to ask. From rsuitor at cjwrfs.net Wed Jun 5 07:57:09 2002 From: rsuitor at cjwrfs.net (Richard Suitor) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 10:57:09 -0400 Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Jun 2002 10:42:04 EDT, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >One thing that I would be certain to do would be to put your copyright notice >on the website, along with a statement to the effect that everything and >anything belonged to you. -thinks- We might even be able to create >something along the lines of an agreement that people had to agree to in >order to be able to play (like the software licenses where you have to click >the "I Agree" button). Believe me, I have no desire nor intention of taking >away your copyright. I belong to another list similar to this one where the author comes out to play. Anyone can sign up for that list, but to remain on it one has to send an email to the list saying that anything written or any idea is offered to the list as a whole. I thought it might be nice, considering the purpose, to word it as offered to the author, but that is the way it is done there. Anyway, I applaud efforts to protect the legal rights of authors on those occasions where their association can cause them legal risks. I suspect most of the participants of this list would be so willing and perhaps you could do something similar in your system. Richard From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jun 5 07:59:37 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 07:59:37 -0700 Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605075646.00a4a1f0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:42 AM 6/5/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >-nodding- Yes. Let me be perfectly clear about this - anything I did as far >as an RPG goes - website, maps, etc. - would belong to you. Anything ever >created by anyone playing in said game would also belong to you. I/We would >own nothing. Frankly, if you ever found anything useful, it would be >flattering. Cool. > I don't see that happening since there is no way possible for us >to ever know your world as well as you - my anal-retentiveness demands that I >remain as close to "canon" as possible so the first step would be to re-read >the books carefully and take notes on how things "function" in your world. Are you familiar Mark Mandel's web page, Cracks_and_Shards? He's done a lot of that stuff. Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, go for it. >Ack! This went on longer than I intended. Hmmm. I remember saying the same thing around the time I was working on TALTOS. From Starshadw at aol.com Wed Jun 5 07:59:25 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 10:59:25 EDT Subject: RPG Systems Message-ID: Eh, I don't think I'll go with the Hero system. Don't get me wrong - it's not a bad system, and I do play Champions. But it's also highly complex in certain areas, and doesn't translate very well online if you actually have to go through combat. The other reason is that there may be people who will want to play who aren't experienced RPers and I want to choose a system that is fairly easy to learn. I like the new 3e D&D for the most part - it's got some problems, but then what system doesn't? But the more I think about it, the more I wonder if it might not be better to use "bits and pieces" from a variety of systems......I'll have to think a little more now that we have the "go ahead" >from Mr. Brust. And what is this "Open RPG" tool? I'm wondering if I've heard of it under a different name. I don't think it cheating to use an already-created world. :-) I love world creation, but my time is at a premium and I don't have any spare left over to do that (wish I did). I know there are those RPGers out there who scoff at anyone using any of a game system's world-bits or modules, but I don't have a problem with it. I think it's a handy time-saver, and lets you get playing faster. That's essentially what we're talking about here - using the world as a backdrop for RPing. Those of us who are interested in this might want to get together in a chat room and talk more. I have AOL's AIM service - it's got a nifty feature that lets you create a chat room with other AIM members. It's a free download, so.....might I suggest we try getting together on AIM and batting some ideas about. Stacy From lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com Wed Jun 5 08:29:58 2002 From: lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com (Lowki Liesmith) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 11:29:58 -0400 Subject: rpg's & hard backs Message-ID: Personally I feel that there should be a "Dragaera" role playing system. I would love to play a dzur sorceror/warrior Phoenix Guard. weather it be on line or note book and pencil and dice. I could just envision being an officer of the guard, defending against those horrible easterner dwarves and put all of those harry little creatures in their place as the scum on the bottom of my boot. As to the hard-back/paper-back goes, sure the hard-back may be a bit more expensive than the paper-back but its the same story, and at the end as always you'll make a sigh of happiness or sorrow, but always wonder and say that was well worth the extra couple $. so if i were you I wouldn't wait any longer. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From zizban at adelphia.net Wed Jun 5 08:51:45 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 11:51:45 -0400 Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2372D8A2-789C-11D6-89A5-00039386187A@adelphia.net> I think charging for an RPG falls in the same category as buying a hardcover; it depends if you think it's worth it but I agree: A Dragaera RPG should be free and if it ever got the point where the web page cost $$$ to run, I'd be willing to donate cash to the effort. It doesn't make much difference what RPG system you use, I think. I prefer GURPS myself but anything that works is fine. So someone is going to make maps of the place, eh? I remember reading in Dzurlord that Dragaera was the same general shape as Europe, only twice as large with the Empire covering about a 1/3 of it, if that helps. Perhaps Steve can enlighten us a little? On Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 10:42 AM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/4/2002 9:58:13 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > > >> I hear stories about writers losing copyright over stuff like this. I >> dunno. As far as I'm concerned, as long as no money is changing >> hands, it >> doesn't bother me. >> > > -nodding- Yes. Let me be perfectly clear about this - anything I did > as far > as an RPG goes - website, maps, etc. - would belong to you. Anything > ever > created by anyone playing in said game would also belong to you. I/We > would > own nothing. Frankly, if you ever found anything useful, it would be > flattering. I don't see that happening since there is no way possible > for us > to ever know your world as well as you - my anal-retentiveness demands > that I > remain as close to "canon" as possible so the first step would be to > re-read > the books carefully and take notes on how things "function" in your > world. > > One thing that I would be certain to do would be to put your copyright > notice > on the website, along with a statement to the effect that everything and > anything belonged to you. -thinks- We might even be able to create > something along the lines of an agreement that people had to agree to in > order to be able to play (like the software licenses where you have to > click > the "I Agree" button). Believe me, I have no desire nor intention of > taking > away your copyright. > > I would never exact a charge to anyone who wanted to role-play. The > only > thing I can see ever coming up would be that if suddenly this thing > took off > and the website got so enormous it was costing beaucoup bucks to keep > it up > (I know several fan-related websites that are this big and are in > trouble > because their owners never thought about this until it was too late. I > know > one person whose site costs them $200/month due to its size and the > amount of > traffic). In that case, I might ask for all of us (by "us" I refer to > those > participating in the game) to help chip in with the cost of keeping the > website up and running. But there would be no profit involved > whatsoever. > I've never understood how people could charge for role-playing, nor how > people could sit there and pay for it. To me, the nice thing about > RPGs is > that, once you have the basic books, you don't have to fork over more > cash > (you certainly can do so since all systems have a multitude of > supplemental > books) in order to enjoy role-playing. > > Ack! This went on longer than I intended. > > Stacy > -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From zizban at adelphia.net Wed Jun 5 08:53:22 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 11:53:22 -0400 Subject: new to list & Re: Map In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5D50E54E-789C-11D6-89A5-00039386187A@adelphia.net> I may just. It's not that that I thought The Phoenix Guards was a bad book, it was actually quite well written, it just wasn't my "thing". After I finish The Nanny Diaries, I might try to read 500 Years After. On Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 10:47 AM, Lowki Liesmith wrote: > all I really must say is that you should really read 500 years after. > It is 10 times better than phoenix guards. > > >> From: Chris Turkel >> To: dragaera at dragaera.info >> Subject: Re: new to list & Re: Map >> Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 23:16:22 -0400 >> >> Can you tell I'm an english major? I can't type! >> I actually (gasp!) don't like the Khraaven Romances. I read the first >> book and decided against reading the rest. Of course I don't like Thw >> Three Musketeers, either. Go figure. But I do like The Count of Monte >> Christo. >> On Tuesday, June 4, 2002, at 08:45 PM, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >> >>> dragaera at dragaera.info -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel >> > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com > From geewiz at mac.com Wed Jun 5 08:58:21 2002 From: geewiz at mac.com (Glenn Ellingson) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 08:58:21 -0700 Subject: Hardback vs. Paperback In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0F55CF15-789D-11D6-A20A-003065C447F2@mac.com> 15-20 years? Pshaw! :-) The oldest paperback on my shelf seems to be a copy of _The Two Towers_ that is 36 years old (1966, 7th american printing by Houghton Mifflin). That's 4 years older than me. Actually, I also have a 4th printing of _Soviet Science Fiction_, edited b Asimov, from 1966. I don't seem to have old copies of any of Brust's (Steve's? How do you prefer to be referred to in the third person?) books, probably because I keep giving them away (spreading the word!). I loaned out To Reign in Hell once when I was drunk hosting a party in 1996 and didn't remember who I had loaned it to. Needless to say it was never returned, which left me without a copy for several years. And of course on Amazon all the reviewers say "don't even think about loaning this book to anybody." Doh! Now, thanks to the reprinting, I own 3 copies and I'm in position to loan it again :-). I still miss that first cover, though. I also pick up copies of Jhereg in used book stores so that I could give them to new friends. -- Glenn Ellingson On Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 07:46 AM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > Actually, my reason for preferring paperbacks is simple - I can get more > books on a bookshelf. :-) And I do re-read my books; I am just careful > to be > good to my paperbacks and I find I have no troubles with them lasting. In > fact, I've got some paperbacks on my shelves that are 15-20 years old. > > But I, too, am about to break down and go buy the hardback. I'll just > read > it, then do what I always do when someone gifts me a hardback: take it to > the > used bookstore, turn it in for credit and get paperbacks. Of course, that > would be after the paerback comes out. > > Stacy From Beldarrin at aol.com Wed Jun 5 09:13:48 2002 From: Beldarrin at aol.com (Beldarrin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 12:13:48 -0400 Subject: Cheers to all! Message-ID: <70213974.147B184E.0221815B@aol.com> Mark: 'OMG whats up with that sethra chick is she like zombie or something!?!? shes pretty scary hahahah oh yeah and what kind of a name is vlad tatlos he must be liek a russian viking LOL!!!' Steph: yeah, itotaly agree! i thought Vald must be like a vamp or somethning because of his name it would make sense because that Sethra chic is one to. wow yer pretty keen Good 4 u! and why does everyone drink so much (like beer and whine and stuff)? wow they must have hi tolarinces not like me ::scrunches up her nose:: Heh. That hurt just to type. Anyway, I'm glad to be a part of this board and in contact with all you spiffoid peoples! About the only other place you can find a bunch of fun fantasy/sci-fi-types is at the midnight opening of "Star Wars: Episode II" (which I was rather disappointed in), and at RenFests (one of which I will be attending in two weeks - yippeeyippeeyippee!). Umm... That's all. :) ~ Steph-Demri (who is going to give up and buy "Issola" from Amazon.com next week, when she has some money!) From cwalker at johnadamsmortgage.com Wed Jun 5 09:46:52 2002 From: cwalker at johnadamsmortgage.com (Cal Walker) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 12:46:52 -0400 Subject: Can you remove me from the email list? Message-ID: <009801c20cb0$9c890cc0$161b090a@realestateone.com> I'm sorry... I need to get myself removed from the list. I'm receiving too much mail. Thanks, Cal From terrick at cox.net Wed Jun 5 09:55:23 2002 From: terrick at cox.net (ryan) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 11:55:23 -0500 Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605075646.00a4a1f0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <006e01c20cb1$cc1d1d40$0364a8c0@darwin> Just tossing in my 2 cents on a good game engine for fantasy. Masterbook, very flexible and easy to understand. Best of all doesn't require more than a few d10's and d6's -Ryan -----Original Message----- From: Steven Brust [mailto:skzb at dreamcafe.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 10:00 AM To: Starshadw at aol.com; dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Map and RPGs At 10:42 AM 6/5/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >-nodding- Yes. Let me be perfectly clear about this - anything I did as far >as an RPG goes - website, maps, etc. - would belong to you. Anything ever >created by anyone playing in said game would also belong to you. I/We would >own nothing. Frankly, if you ever found anything useful, it would be >flattering. Cool. > I don't see that happening since there is no way possible for us >to ever know your world as well as you - my anal-retentiveness demands that I >remain as close to "canon" as possible so the first step would be to re-read >the books carefully and take notes on how things "function" in your world. Are you familiar Mark Mandel's web page, Cracks_and_Shards? He's done a lot of that stuff. Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, go for it. >Ack! This went on longer than I intended. Hmmm. I remember saying the same thing around the time I was working on TALTOS. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jun 5 10:02:18 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 10:02:18 -0700 Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: <2372D8A2-789C-11D6-89A5-00039386187A@adelphia.net> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605100145.00a6f1d0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:51 AM 6/5/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: > Perhaps Steve can enlighten us a little? I can, but I won't. Bwahahahaha. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jun 5 10:04:04 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 10:04:04 -0700 Subject: Hardback vs. Paperback In-Reply-To: <0F55CF15-789D-11D6-A20A-003065C447F2@mac.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605100305.00a6fc30@pop3.lvcm.com> At 08:58 AM 6/5/2002 -0700, Glenn Ellingson wrote: >I don't seem to have old copies of any of Brust's (Steve's? How do you >prefer to be referred to in the third person?) Either of those is fine. Thanks for asking. From frank at exit.com Wed Jun 5 10:05:22 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 10:05:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605100145.00a6f1d0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <200206051705.g55H5MIM041752@realtime.exit.com> Steven Brust wrote: > At 11:51 AM 6/5/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: > > Perhaps Steve can enlighten us a little? > I can, but I won't. Bwahahahaha. Shouldn't you be writing or something? :-| -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From jbearson at tampabay.rr.com Wed Jun 5 10:22:22 2002 From: jbearson at tampabay.rr.com (Jbearson) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 13:22:22 -0400 Subject: Map and RPGs References: <200206051705.g55H5MIM041752@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <00ff01c20cb5$91d56350$9865fea9@SSUD235A> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Mayhar" To: "Steven Brust" Cc: "Chris Turkel" ; Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 1:05 PM Subject: Re: Map and RPGs > Steven Brust wrote: > > At 11:51 AM 6/5/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: > > > Perhaps Steve can enlighten us a little? > > I can, but I won't. Bwahahahaha. > > Shouldn't you be writing or something? :-| HA! good point! :) > -- > Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ > Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From Starshadw at aol.com Wed Jun 5 10:40:30 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 13:40:30 EDT Subject: On the subject of peppers.....a warning Message-ID: <161.ec44ebd.2a2fa70e@aol.com> Lords and ladies, as one who enjoys cooking, I feel I must pass on a warning after what just happened to me. We all know of the dangers of cooking with peppers of the hot variety and I'm sure we all know about precuations that can be taken. Well, even after you've taken them, don't assume everything is OK. This morning, I made chili. With jalapenos. I do not like to expose myself to latex so I don't wear gloves. After I was done, I of course washed my hands well. I scrubbed them twice with soap, then rinsed them. Then, I went and did a few other things - took out the trash, etc. Then, I went into the bathroom, washed my hands AGAIN and prepared to put in my contacts. As soon as that left contact hit my eye, I thought someone had poured acid onto my eyeball. What's even worse, of course my eye reacted instinctively, and didn't want to re-open so I could take the contact out. Finally, I pried the eyelid back open and with my still-jalapeno-infested fingers get the contact back out. I now have a splitting headache and there is no way I will be putting contacts in today. So please, everyone be super-super careful. And then be even more careful after that - I took precautions, and still ended up in trouble. Yeesh. How come Vlad never had this problem? :) Stacy From alipkin at LearnLink.Emory.Edu Wed Jun 5 11:05:03 2002 From: alipkin at LearnLink.Emory.Edu (Adam Lipkin) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 14:05:03 -0400 Subject: On the subject of peppers.....a warning In-Reply-To: <161.ec44ebd.2a2fa70e@aol.com> References: <161.ec44ebd.2a2fa70e@aol.com> Message-ID: Starshadw at aol.com writes: > >Yeesh. How come Vlad never had this problem? :) He wears Dragaera-style leather cooking gloves? And he doesn't wear contacts. :-) --Adam Adam Lipkin Educational Analyst, Academic Technology Group alipkin at learnlink.emory.edu ___________________________________________________________ "If you don't turn your life into a story, you just become a part of someone else's story." --Terry Pratchett From singram at videotron.ca Wed Jun 5 11:10:28 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 14:10:28 -0400 Subject: On the subject of peppers.....a warning References: <161.ec44ebd.2a2fa70e@aol.com> Message-ID: <006001c20cbc$460123e0$17ecca18@ingram> > Starshadw at aol.com writes: > > > >Yeesh. How come Vlad never had this problem? :) > > He wears Dragaera-style leather cooking gloves? And he doesn't wear > contacts. :-) Damn straight. Kragar has all the contacts, and he doesn't cook. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jun 5 11:27:05 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 11:27:05 -0700 Subject: On the subject of peppers.....a warning In-Reply-To: <161.ec44ebd.2a2fa70e@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605112526.00a58c80@pop3.lvcm.com> At 01:40 PM 6/5/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >Yeesh. How come Vlad never had this problem? :) I actually wrote a scene in, I think it was Yendi, where Vlad and Cawti discuss the dangers of working with hot peppers. Good taste required that it be left on the cutting room floor. From ijamie at sympatico.ca Wed Jun 5 11:54:53 2002 From: ijamie at sympatico.ca (Ian sympatico) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 14:54:53 -0400 Subject: Book Releases Message-ID: <001a01c20cc2$7a93f1e0$e4835f41@idirect.com> Steven, here I am changing the subject. 'Issola' came out in hardcover last year and 'Paths of the Dead' is coming out in hardcover this November. When can we expect the next Vlad book and the next two sections of the 'Viscount of Adrilankha' book? From tyan at twcny.rr.com Wed Jun 5 12:02:11 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 15:02:11 -0400 Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1fdb5tu.8r9m7c2tso38M%tyan@twcny.rr.com> > On Jun 5, Steven Brust said: > >At 10:05 PM 6/4/2002 -0700, Frank Mayhar wrote: > > > >>One word: Remaindering. A pernicious practice that is one of the things > >>killing the paperback industry. > > > >Well, remaindering *is* pretty silly, but it's been going on for a lot > >longer than the paperback crunch. > > It's still black necromancy. Was the description of remaindering correct? I thought remaindering was when the publisher decided to stop taking returned books --and maybe gave some credit for unsold books-- and thus booksellers just sold it at whatever price they could. In fact, sometimes, for odd reasons some booksellers 'self-remainder': they just try to dump their stock instead of returning the books. Plus, can't (at least in theory) hardcover and trade paperback books be remaindered? (And when the publisher decides to remainder books, it seems like they often give the author the opportunity to buy some or all of their unsold stock.) Whereas stripping was what was described: In the U.S., to make 'returning' unsold mass market paperbacks cheaper, the covers were stripped and returned, and the contents (supposedly) destroyed. (Note that hardcovers and trade paperbacks, when returned, are returned whole -- not stripped. And I'm not sure if stripping is done anywhere else but the U.S.) Corrections on any/all of the above are welcome! -snip- > >No, Rachel explained what has caused the real crunch. > > I wish my parents could spell. I just noticed (from watching "She's All That") that the actor Rachael Leigh Cook spells it the same way. Anyway, another favorite scapegoat for publishing woes is the "Thor Power Tools" decision, which came up on rec.arts.sf.written recently. Since I remembered PNH and others talking about what they thought the main true culprits were, I searched RASFW and RASFF a little while back for posts about publishing woes and posted two articles with URLs: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1fbf7tj.172zuem1d8pzvsN%25tyan%40tw cny.rr.com http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1fbf9bx.zzs2ancu1j2vN%25tyan%40twcn y.rr.com Note that some URLs were split in my posts, so you'll have to reassemble them. I'm afraid it is a bit repetitive since the focus was on TPT, but it probably provides helpful context, including that stripping has been around since the 1940s. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to have (anything?) much to say about: > >Instead of a lot of distributors working their areas and responding > >("Hey, Jim, give us more westerns next time; people around here seem to > >like westerns") you have Ingrams, which gives you (the drug store with > >a book rack, or the airport, or whatever) the top ten NYT bestsellers > >and a few others that they pick out. > > I was going to say that that was a while back (drugstore and airport > racks being of any use) and that the paperback market survived the > collapse of the ID channels, and then I realized I didn't know if that > was actually the case. Did sales actually survive, and the later > consolidations kill them; or did they never quite recover, and stagger > woozily to their extended demise? Tangent: Another thing to get angry about is that (paraphrase from memory) acid-free paper doesn't cost more than non-acid-free paper in terms of cost per area. (For example, I believe if you look at 8.5"x11" paper, you'll find similar or identical prices.) Naturally, this leads to the question: why aren't mmpbs printed on acid-free paper? The answer is that acid-free paper is not produced in that trim size, so you have a chicken and egg problem. Publisher's don't have the option of using cheap acid-free paper because it isn't made. It isn't made because there isn't enough demand to make it cost effective to produce. Grr. Corrections on the above again very welcome. Note that it is based on my memory of posts made by Lis Carey on RASFW many years ago. - tky From rachael at daedala.net Wed Jun 5 12:33:14 2002 From: rachael at daedala.net (Rachael Lininger) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 14:33:14 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: <1fdb5tu.8r9m7c2tso38M%tyan@twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: Mucked with attributions--Steve didn't make the "black necromancy" crack, I did. On Jun 5, Thomas Yan said: > On Jun 5, Rachael said: >> >At 10:05 PM 6/4/2002 -0700, Frank Mayhar wrote: >> > >> >>One word: Remaindering. A pernicious practice that is one of the things >> >>killing the paperback industry. >> > >> >Well, remaindering *is* pretty silly, but it's been going on for a lot >> >longer than the paperback crunch. >> >> It's still black necromancy. > >Was the description of remaindering correct? No, you're absolutely right. Sorry. I wasn't thinking, I was just agreeing with whatever anyone said.... >I thought remaindering was when the publisher decided to stop taking >returned books --and maybe gave some credit for unsold books-- and thus >booksellers just sold it at whatever price they could. In fact, >sometimes, for odd reasons some booksellers 'self-remainder': they just >try to dump their stock instead of returning the books. Plus, can't (at >least in theory) hardcover and trade paperback books be remaindered? Now that I think of it, yes. I get hardcover/trades remaindered fairly often, as it's the only way I'll pay for them. >(And when the publisher decides to remainder books, it seems like they >often give the author the opportunity to buy some or all of their unsold >stock.) It's a contract thing; usually they're supposed to. It doesn't always happen, which is why some HTF books are so HTF. >Whereas stripping was what was described: In the U.S., to make >'returning' unsold mass market paperbacks cheaper, the covers were >stripped and returned, and the contents (supposedly) destroyed. (Note >that hardcovers and trade paperbacks, when returned, are returned whole >-- not stripped. And I'm not sure if stripping is done anywhere else >but the U.S.) _That's_ what I meant by "black necromancy." I was going with the description. >-snip- >> >No, Rachel explained what has caused the real crunch. >> >> I wish my parents could spell. > >I just noticed (from watching "She's All That") that the actor Rachael >Leigh Cook spells it the same way. She's wrong, too. >Tangent: Another thing to get angry about is that (paraphrase from >memory) acid-free paper doesn't cost more than non-acid-free paper in >terms of cost per area. (For example, I believe if you look at 8.5"x11" >paper, you'll find similar or identical prices.) Letter and A4 sizes might not be the best places to look; I'd want to see an average over several trim sizes. But I see no reason to disbelieve this. >Naturally, this leads to the question: why aren't mmpbs printed on >acid-free paper? The answer is that acid-free paper is not produced in >that trim size, so you have a chicken and egg problem. Publisher's >don't have the option of using cheap acid-free paper because it isn't >made. It isn't made because there isn't enough demand to make it cost >effective to produce. Grr. Grrr, indeed. (There's still no excuse for Baen's ink, though.) >Corrections on the above again very welcome. Note that it is based on >my memory of posts made by Lis Carey on RASFW many years ago. Memory is the first to go. Next is Komarr.... Rachael -- Rachael From the Dilbert Newsletter: Lininger "You should talk to her. rachael@ She is a minefield of information." daedala.net From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jun 5 12:30:40 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 12:30:40 -0700 Subject: Book Releases In-Reply-To: <001a01c20cc2$7a93f1e0$e4835f41@idirect.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605122811.00a44660@pop3.lvcm.com> At 02:54 PM 6/5/2002 -0400, Ian sympatico wrote: >Steven, here I am changing the subject. 'Issola' came out in hardcover >last year and 'Paths of the Dead' is coming out in hardcover this >November. When can we expect the next Vlad book and the next two sections >of the 'Viscount of Adrilankha' book? "I was pleased to be able to answer at once, and I did. I said I didn't know." --Twain I'm guessing that the next two volumes of Viscount will be scheduled between six months and a year after the first, but I don't actually know anything. I'll be starting on another Vlad novel after I've flogged Viscount a little more. It's still twitching, so it must not be dead yet. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jun 5 12:32:38 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 12:32:38 -0700 Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: <1fdb5tu.8r9m7c2tso38M%tyan@twcny.rr.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605123158.00a525a0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 03:02 PM 6/5/2002 -0400, Thomas Yan wrote: >you have a chicken and egg problem. Publisher's >don't have the option of using cheap acid-free paper because it isn't >made. It isn't made because there isn't enough demand to make it cost >effective to produce. Grr. Marx referred to this as, "The anarchy of capitalism." From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jun 5 12:35:10 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 12:35:10 -0700 Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: References: <1fdb5tu.8r9m7c2tso38M%tyan@twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605123433.00a51ac0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 02:33 PM 6/5/2002 -0500, Rachael Lininger wrote: >Memory is the first to go. Next is Komarr.... Canonically, memory is the *second* thing to go. From pddb at demesne.com Wed Jun 5 12:54:51 2002 From: pddb at demesne.com (pddb at demesne.com) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 14:54:51 -0500 Subject: Book Releases In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605122811.00a44660@pop3.lvcm.com>; from skzb@dreamcafe.com on Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 12:30:40PM -0700 References: <001a01c20cc2$7a93f1e0$e4835f41@idirect.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020605122811.00a44660@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <20020605145451.A4648@gw.dd-b.net> On Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 12:30:40PM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: > I'll be starting on another Vlad novel after I've flogged > Viscount a little more. It's still twitching, so it must not be dead yet. Paarfi will never stop twitching, not if you was to flog his prose until Doomsday. I think you are done when there are no longer any prepositions within shouting distance of the ends of independent clauses, no? -- Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet (pddb at demesne.com) "I will open my heart to a blank page and interview the witnesses." John M. Ford, "Shared World" From corwin at mpls.cx Wed Jun 5 13:10:48 2002 From: corwin at mpls.cx (corwin at mpls.cx) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 15:10:48 -0500 Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605123433.00a51ac0@pop3.lvcm.com> References: Message-ID: <3CFE29F8.586.1045F56@localhost> On 5 Jun 2002 at 12:35, Steven Brust wrote: > At 02:33 PM 6/5/2002 -0500, Rachael Lininger wrote: > > >Memory is the first to go. Next is Komarr.... > > Canonically, memory is the *second* thing to go. What's the first? From frank at exit.com Wed Jun 5 13:15:51 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 13:15:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: <3CFE29F8.586.1045F56@localhost> Message-ID: <200206052015.g55KFpJH002937@realtime.exit.com> corwin at mpls.cx wrote: > On 5 Jun 2002 at 12:35, Steven Brust wrote: > > At 02:33 PM 6/5/2002 -0500, Rachael Lininger wrote: > > >Memory is the first to go. Next is Komarr.... > > Canonically, memory is the *second* thing to go. > What's the first? Um, um, um, it's right on the tip of my tongue . . . -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jun 5 13:22:55 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 13:22:55 -0700 Subject: Book Releases In-Reply-To: <20020605145451.A4648@gw.dd-b.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605122811.00a44660@pop3.lvcm.com> <001a01c20cc2$7a93f1e0$e4835f41@idirect.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020605122811.00a44660@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605132155.00a560e0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 02:54 PM 6/5/2002 -0500, pddb at demesne.com wrote: >On Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 12:30:40PM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: > > > > I'll be starting on another Vlad novel after I've flogged > > Viscount a little more. It's still twitching, so it must not be dead yet. > >Paarfi will never stop twitching, not if you was to flog his prose >until Doomsday. I think you are done when there are no longer any >prepositions within shouting distance of the ends of independent >clauses, no? Yeah, that would be about it. The amount of rewriting I have to do in the first part of Volume 2 gives me to twitch myself. But that's why I get the big bucks. :-) From usagigoya at hotmail.com Wed Jun 5 14:32:46 2002 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 21:32:46 +0000 Subject: Hardcover vs. paperback Message-ID: Didn't realize that this list was so active... had a couple e-mails in my in-box, then I looked in my presorted junk mail folder and found another 60 odd messages hidden there... As far as paperbacks go, they are (or used to be)cheaper than hardcovers, but with hardcover remainder prices being $5.00 to $7.00, they are not much of a savings anymore. I've bought the various books of the Vlad Taltos series published by Ace in paperback, most of them within a week of publication. I started buying Steve's books in hardcover with the publication of the Pheonix Guards and Five Hundred Years After. As someone mentioned previously, some authors are worth the extra cost of the Hardcover edition, for a couple reasons I believe... 1) The wait between books is long enough without waiting for a paperback edition to be published eventually. 2) With frequent rereadings of my faverate titles and authors, the hardcover editions hold up better in the long run. 3) I read far fewer books than I used to, so I can afford to splurge the extra money on those authors whom I enjoy reading the most. I don't buy all my reading material in hardcover, but then again, I don't read every book or author several times over. Quick Question - What is the status of "A Dream of Passion" now that Issolla has been written? Was it all a dream or a somewhat distorted premonition of future events? Or is it still just a scene from Vlad's future which we the readers are only given a quick glimpse to wonder about? Will it ever be reprinted in some form or other? Abayo, Steve Hubbell _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jun 5 14:51:42 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 14:51:42 -0700 Subject: Hardcover vs. paperback In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605144927.00a7ecd0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 09:32 PM 6/5/2002 +0000, Steve Hubbell wrote: >Quick Question - What is the status of "A Dream of Passion" now that >Issolla has been written? Same as always: it was an unpaid little thingy written for the chapbook of a convention, and I refuse to be bound by it. Sheesh, I no longer even remember what happens in it except for the Zelazny reference that was sort's of it's whole point. >Will it ever be reprinted in some form or other? Probably not. From dgf at dd-b.net Wed Jun 5 15:17:01 2002 From: dgf at dd-b.net (dgf at dd-b.net) Date: 5 Jun 2002 22:17:01 -0000 Subject: Dragaera subscriber list Message-ID: <20020605221701.8068.qmail@dd-b.net> adia (at) hellug.gr (email) =?iso-8859-7?B?wevd7uHt5PHv8iDE6eHs4e303+Tn8g==?= adina (at) panix.com (email) aheyman (at) rcn.com (email) "Adam Heyman" ahovey (at) caris.com (email) akomins (at) midway.uchicago.edu (email) Arin Komins alan (at) 5sc.net (email) "Alan" alipkin (at) learnlink.emory.edu (email) arcangelxiii (at) angelfire.com (email) "Daryl Berry" BEERcons (at) aol.com (email) BEERcons (at) aol.com Beldarrin (at) aol.com (email) Beldarrin (at) aol.com bertowud (at) gator.net (email) books (at) bofh.com (email) jot (at) bofh.com briandmichelle (at) yahoo.com (email) Brian and Michelle Baskett Christopher_M_Kane (at) brown.edu (email) chuning88 (at) yahoo.com (email) corwin (at) mpls.cx (email) (Corwin Brust) cwalker (at) johnadamsmortgage.com (email) "Cal Walker" dan-tain_ishanti (at) attbi.com (email) "Brad Crawford" david.lish (at) sega.com (email) David Lish dd-b (at) dd-b.net (email) (David Dyer-Bennet) den (at) monger.net (email) dgf (at) dd-b.net (post) diony (at) idiom.com (email) divyasatyam (at) satyam.net.in (email) "Divya" dragaera (at) juima.org (email) Sander ejpeterson (at) attbi.com (email) eshivak (at) netzero.net (email) "Eric Shivak" FelixEisen (at) aol.com (email) felix_strates (at) hotmail.com (email) (Felix Strates) frank (at) exit.com (email) Frank Mayhar frozentitan (at) comcast.net (email) Frozen Titan gaertk (at) aol.com (email) Gaertk (at) aol.com gaku169 (at) hotmail.com (email) "Denis Berthelsen" geewiz (at) mac.com (email) Glenn Ellingson goldfarb (at) ocf.berkeley.edu (email) (David Goldfarb) grapawy (at) yahoo.com (email) Gregory Rapawy harrisonjeff (at) attbi.com (email) "Jeff Harrison" hhertzof (at) panix.com (email) Hilary Hertzoff igalbraith (at) ozonline.com.au (email) igalbraith (at) ozonline.com.au (Ian Galbraith) ijamie (at) sympatico.ca (email) "Ian sympatico" jamesandmary.burbidge (at) sympatico.ca (email) James and Mary Burbidge jbdelong (at) uclink.berkeley.edu (email) Brad DeLong jbearson (at) tampabay.rr.com (email) "Jbearson" jetdragn (at) bellsouth.net (email) jimkatz (at) ix.netcom.com (email) Jim Katz jmellby (at) attbi.com (email) "John R. 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Nonymous" zizban (at) adelphia.net (email) Chris Turkel From jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca Wed Jun 5 15:47:23 2002 From: jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca (James and Mary Burbidge) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 18:47:23 -0400 Subject: Map and RPGs References: <200206050505.g5555sQw006530@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <3CFE94FB.186498A1@sympatico.ca> Frank Mayhar wrote: > > Matthew Hunter wrote: > > It's certainly not lower prices. Paperbacks have been going UP. > > Um, yeah. Sigh. > > > I have heard it expressed that publishers are having trouble making money on > > small-run paperbacks, and thus are reluctant to publish them. They are pushing > > to either move their authors to hardcover (stepping up) or cease publishing them > > at all (stepping down), whereas in the past it was possible to stay in the middle > > (midlist). > > One word: Remaindering. A pernicious practice that is one of the things > killing the paperback industry. (Remaindering is where a store can buy lots > of extra copies of a paperback, then if they don't sell, strip the cover off > and send them back to the publisher for full credit. Books can get stripped > straight out of the original box, without even hitting the shelves.) > Erm. What you have described is indeed part of the book distribution system -- generally, returns are possible for most books if they don't sell; for paperbacks, the cost of returning the books is higher than they parties want to bear, so PBs are stripped and everything but the covers discarded. (HCs can normally be returned as well, but need to be returned entire.) The returns system, IIRC, has been in place since the thirties. However, it is not remaindering. Remaindering is when the publisher (or distributor, but usually the publisher) decides that it's costing it more to store copies of a (relatively) slow-moving book than they're likely to make (inventory space being equal to money), and sells the books in large lots at a small fraction of their cover price for resale at a much marked down cover price. There are various modern accounting and sales practices which affect the threshold at which remaindering kicks in, and practices vary by publisher. But it's been around for some time (at least since the '70's). -- James Burbidge jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca From frank at exit.com Wed Jun 5 15:54:13 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 15:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: <3CFE94FB.186498A1@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200206052254.g55MsDip066823@realtime.exit.com> James and Mary Burbidge wrote: > Erm. What you have described is indeed part of the book distribution > system -- generally, returns are possible for most books if they don't > sell; for paperbacks, the cost of returning the books is higher than > they parties want to bear, so PBs are stripped and everything but the > covers discarded. (HCs can normally be returned as well, but need to be > returned entire.) The returns system, IIRC, has been in place since the > thirties. However, it is not remaindering. I stand (well, sit) corrected. I had confused the two practices. They're still a pack of thieves, though. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From Beldarrin at aol.com Wed Jun 5 16:05:49 2002 From: Beldarrin at aol.com (Beldarrin at aol.com) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 19:05:49 -0400 Subject: Another Turn of Subject Message-ID: <7D6CEB52.2BA1BB0B.0221815B@aol.com> And to change the subject once more (and this is directed to Mr. Steve), one is curious as to why you decided to write "Athyra" in third person, and why "Orca" volleys back and forth between Vlad and Kiera. Was that so the reader could kind of step outside of Vlad and gain a different perspective on him, or because you were bored with first-person Vlad, or both? Personally, I rather enjoyed stepping outside Vlad's realm of understanding for a little while. It helped me to realize just how impressive his mind works, and how enamored of him Lady Luck (or fate or, um, karma, or something like that) really is, and how much I miss conversations between Vlad and Loiosh when they aren't there. (Anyone know where I can get me a cute little jhereg?) Oh, and on a rather ridiculous-sounding note, if you had to convert imperials into U.S. dollars, what would an imperial be worth? That's something (rather insignificant, true) I was just wondering about... ~ Steph From akomins at midway.uchicago.edu Wed Jun 5 16:25:01 2002 From: akomins at midway.uchicago.edu (Arin Komins) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 18:25:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: delurk and question (good sources for fenarian myths?) Message-ID: Just wanted to do a quick delurk and hello and ask a question. Steve -- I've been reading you (like others on the list ;-) ) since the initial publication of Jhereg, and have voraciously been consuming your books since then. (Even the silly associational stuff, like Dzurlord, and the graphic novel version of Jhereg.) Re: other points of discussion on list right now... 1) rpgs -- I recall an irc chat (from Pyramid) with you and Steve Jackson. Did anything come out of that? Like turning the Vladiverse into a GURPS supplement? 2) I vastly prefer hardcovers over paperbacks, and quietly applauded when Tor started issuing them as HC. I also have a severe inability to wait until paperbacks are published, so I'm really rather happy to like HC. I even like limited, beautifully bound HCs, but somehow I suspect that my tastes there aren't shared by others on the list ;-) New question stuff: I've long enjoyed the nonVlad Fenario stories. I've understood that Fenario is a reinterpretation of Hungary. Is there a decent collection of Hungarian folklore out there? Is the taltos (please forgive my lack of accents on that) strictly your invention, or did you borrow that? On rabid drooling fangirl notes: Any chance that we'll see the backhistory of Kragar? Or a Dolivar book? Arin ps. you help ease the loss of R.Z. Please do keep writing ;-) :-) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Arin Komins akomins at uchicago.edu Manager of Web Systems Architecture University of Chicago/NSIT tel: (773)834-4087 1155 E. 60th St. #302B Chicago, IL 60637 fax: (773)702-0559 ------------------------------------------------------------------ From akomins at midway.uchicago.edu Wed Jun 5 16:26:41 2002 From: akomins at midway.uchicago.edu (Arin Komins) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 18:26:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: oops. ebooks? Message-ID: Any chance we'll be seeing ebook versions of any of your books? They'd make good secondary copies (and then I could read good stuff rather than sitting in meetings at work ;-) ) Thanks, Arin -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Arin Komins akomins at uchicago.edu Manager of Web Systems Architecture University of Chicago/NSIT tel: (773)834-4087 1155 E. 60th St. #302B Chicago, IL 60637 fax: (773)702-0559 ------------------------------------------------------------------ From harrisonjeff at attbi.com Wed Jun 5 16:46:03 2002 From: harrisonjeff at attbi.com (Jeff Harrison) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:46:03 -0700 Subject: Paths of the Dead Message-ID: <000f01c20ceb$28273060$6401a8c0@attbi.com> Steven - without spilling too many of the beans, can you tell us a liitle bit of the storyline for Paths of the Dead? Maybe something along the lines of the jacket synopsis? I'm sure I speak for others,too, when I say that we are all eager! Thanks, Jeff From frozentitan at comcast.net Wed Jun 5 17:04:48 2002 From: frozentitan at comcast.net (Frozen Titan) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 20:04:48 -0400 Subject: Athyra Message-ID: <001d01c20ced$c60209c0$6601a8c0@joseph> Okay, I can't be the only one having this problem. I need to get ahold of Athyra. I am stuck in the series and will not read them out of release order. Heh heh. Does anyone know how I can get this book for a decent price? I just want to read it, not be a collecter of rare books. :) I just learned about this list from a friend. It is great! As a fun note, I have a beta account in Shadowbane and have had an assassin character named Vlad (of course, modeled after Taltos). *grin* -Frozentitan From mss2 at attbi.com Wed Jun 5 17:10:56 2002 From: mss2 at attbi.com (Michael S. Schiffer) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 19:10:56 -0500 Subject: oops. ebooks? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605185848.02eb7e30@mail.attbi.com> At 06:26 PM 6/5/2002 -0500, Arin Komins wrote: >Any chance we'll be seeing ebook versions of any of your books? I don't know if this has changed recently, but last I checked, Tor's entry into e-books has been slow and centered around relatively expensive e-books in encrypted formats. I think this is set at the level of their giant German parent company, with limited choice on the part of the Tor folks themselves, but I'm open to correction. (I'm not sure about the status of Brust's other publishers.) If it were possible, I'd pay up to paperback prices for most of the older books in an open electronic format, and hardcover prices for the new one (my objection to hardcovers is space rather than cost-related). >They'd make good secondary copies (and then I could read good stuff >rather than sitting in meetings at work ;-) ) I've taken to getting (open-format) e-books as primary copies, where possible. (But I'm a classic early-adopter, since I don't mind reading dark gray text on a light gray background on my Visor. Expanding the market will really require better reading hardware.) Mike From zizban at adelphia.net Wed Jun 5 17:05:34 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 20:05:34 -0400 Subject: oops. ebooks? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1FB0FAD0-78E1-11D6-B1F6-00039386187A@adelphia.net> I actually dislike ebooks myself, I really dislike reading on a screen. I'd rather hold a book, which would have clearer type, then stare a screen, but that might be just me. On Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 07:26 PM, Arin Komins wrote: > Any chance we'll be seeing ebook versions of any of your books? > > They'd make good secondary copies (and then I could read good stuff > rather than sitting in meetings at work ;-) ) > > Thanks, > > Arin > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Arin Komins akomins at uchicago.edu > Manager of Web Systems Architecture > University of Chicago/NSIT tel: (773)834-4087 > 1155 E. 60th St. #302B Chicago, IL 60637 fax: (773)702-0559 > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jun 5 17:18:31 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 17:18:31 -0700 Subject: Another Turn of Subject In-Reply-To: <7D6CEB52.2BA1BB0B.0221815B@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605170501.00a5dc00@pop3.lvcm.com> At 07:05 PM 6/5/2002 -0400, Beldarrin at aol.com wrote: > And to change the subject once more (and this is directed to Mr. > Steve), one is curious as to why you decided to write "Athyra" in third > person, and why "Orca" volleys back and forth between Vlad and Kiera. I don't think I can give a fully satisfying answer to that question. Part of it is this: When I finished Phoenix, I thought I might be done with Vlad. But I kept getting this image of Vlad walking into a bar, wearing a pancho, smoking a cheroot, with a Sergio Leone soundtrack. The image wouldn't go away, so I wrote Athyra to exorcise it, and there was just no way get that feel in first person. Another part of the answer is that there were machinations going on in Orca that Vlad just wouldn't have seen, and that I needed the reader to see. Also, I wanted to see if I could pull off the Kiera/Sethra thing while spending a lot of time in Kiera's head. I don't know. There's a reasonable argument that "the story" is a different thing from "how the story is told." But when I'm working on it, I can't separate them. Those stories had to be told that way, or they just wouldn't have worked for me. See? I told you the answer wouldn't be satisfying. > Oh, and on a rather ridiculous-sounding note, if you had to convert > imperials into U.S. dollars, what would an imperial be worth? That's > something (rather insignificant, true) I was just wondering about... The answer that jumps into my head is, of course, $17 to the Imperial. But that won't hold up because of cultural differences. Let's say Vlad earns $1500 imperials. In our terms, that would be about $25,000. Okay, you have $25,000. You go out to a fairly decent restaurant. You spend $25, or 1/1000th of the income. That same meal would cost Vlad about 3 or 4 Orbs, or, say, 1/3500 of the income (I think my math is right: 1 orb = 1/17th of an imperial). You decide to buy a pair of good boots. You might spend $250, or 1/100th of the income. Vlad might have to spend forty or fifty imperials for good boots, or 1/30th of the income. You see the problem? Things don't match up. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jun 5 17:23:31 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 17:23:31 -0700 Subject: delurk and question (good sources for fenarian myths?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605171859.00a49300@pop3.lvcm.com> At 06:25 PM 6/5/2002 -0500, Arin Komins wrote: >1) rpgs -- I recall an irc chat (from Pyramid) with you and Steve Jackson. >Did anything come out of that? Like turning the Vladiverse into a GURPS >supplement? It started to, but then petered out because of his financial situation. I'm still hoping something will happen. >2) I vastly prefer hardcovers over paperbacks, and quietly applauded >when Tor started issuing them as HC. I also have a severe inability to >wait until paperbacks are published, so I'm really rather happy to like >HC. I even like limited, beautifully bound HCs, but somehow I suspect >that my tastes there aren't shared by others on the list ;-) Oh, hell. I'd love to see a really deluxe hc edition of some of my stuff, like F&N, or The Phoenix Guards, just for the ego stroking implied in it. :-) >New question stuff: > >I've long enjoyed the nonVlad Fenario stories. I've understood that >Fenario is a reinterpretation of Hungary. Is there a decent collection >of Hungarian folklore out there? I recommend Folktales of Hungary, by Linda Degh, University of Chicago Press. > Is the taltos (please forgive my lack of >accents on that) strictly your invention, or did you borrow that? I stole it. The Taltos is sort of Hungary's contribution to internal folktales. (And you want to hear something funny? Hungary is one of few countries where vampires are not found in the folktales. Go figure.) >Any chance that we'll see the backhistory of Kragar? Or a Dolivar book? Could happen. I dunno. >Arin > >ps. you help ease the loss of R.Z. That is a wonderful thing to say. Thank you. I still miss him bitterly. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jun 5 17:24:32 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 17:24:32 -0700 Subject: oops. ebooks? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605172344.00a5b140@pop3.lvcm.com> At 06:26 PM 6/5/2002 -0500, Arin Komins wrote: >Any chance we'll be seeing ebook versions of any of your books? I have no plans for anything like that. I don't like them, so I don't feel any inclination to go that way. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jun 5 17:27:57 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 17:27:57 -0700 Subject: Paths of the Dead In-Reply-To: <000f01c20ceb$28273060$6401a8c0@attbi.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605172455.00a5c2c0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 04:46 PM 6/5/2002 -0700, Jeff Harrison wrote: >Steven - without spilling too many of the beans, can you tell us a liitle >bit of the storyline for Paths of the Dead? Maybe something along the lines >of the jacket synopsis? Khaavren's son meets up with a Phoenix and they go off to attempt to bring the Orb back from the Halls of Judgment. I don't want to give away too much, but I will tell you that there are swordfights in the book. And a young Morrolan. And a couple of brief appearances by my alter ego. From zizban at adelphia.net Wed Jun 5 17:12:43 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 20:12:43 -0400 Subject: Athyra In-Reply-To: <001d01c20ced$c60209c0$6601a8c0@joseph> Message-ID: <1EFD2CEA-78E2-11D6-B1F6-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Try Alibris http://www.alibris.com/ They seem to have out of print books galore. I found Athyra for $74 (!) I have no idea why it's that expensive. On Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 08:04 PM, Frozen Titan wrote: > Okay, I can't be the only one having this problem. I need to get > ahold of Athyra. I am stuck in the series and will not read them out of > release order. Heh heh. Does anyone know how I can get this book for a > decent price? I just want to read it, not be a collecter of rare > books. :) > I just learned about this list from a friend. It is great! > As a fun note, I have a beta account in Shadowbane and have had an > assassin character named Vlad (of course, modeled after Taltos). *grin* > > -Frozentitan > -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Jun 5 17:29:23 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 19:29:23 -0500 Subject: Paths of the Dead In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605172455.00a5c2c0@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <000f01c20ceb$28273060$6401a8c0@attbi.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020605172455.00a5c2c0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <20020606002923.GE6354@infodancer.org> On Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 05:27:57PM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: > And a couple of brief appearances by my alter ego. Will these explain why your alter ego has not ended up with a pair of quills protruding artistically from his eyesockets, like a certain painter of note? ;) -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 240 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20020605/1097c9e9/attachment.pgp From dan-tain_ishanti at attbi.com Wed Jun 5 17:25:24 2002 From: dan-tain_ishanti at attbi.com (Brad Crawford) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 17:25:24 -0700 Subject: On the subject of peppers.....a warning References: <161.ec44ebd.2a2fa70e@aol.com> Message-ID: <00f001c20cf0$a6959360$8fd47e18@we.client2.attbi.com> Ouch! When I was younger I worked in a pizza parlor and dropped a big ol' opened can of jalapenos and all the oily fluids splashed up into my eyes and onto my freshly shaven face. pain-o-rama. LOL Brad From tyan at twcny.rr.com Wed Jun 5 17:34:05 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 20:34:05 -0400 Subject: Athyra In-Reply-To: <001d01c20ced$c60209c0$6601a8c0@joseph> Message-ID: <1fdbmtx.mvlht78jgzomM%tyan@twcny.rr.com> Frozen Titan wrote: > Okay, I can't be the only one having this problem. I need to get ahold >of Athyra. I am stuck in the series and will not read them out of >release order. Heh heh. Does anyone know how I can get this book for a >decent price? I just want to read it, not be a collecter of rare books. >:) Assuming no one here offers to lend you a copy, here are some ideas: 1. There are a number of sites where you can leave a wantlist, e.g. I've used abebooks.com to obtain many out of print books. It sends you an e-mail when books matching your criteria are available. But for some books, you want to act as soon as you receive the e-mail. While searching for Pamela Dean's _The Hidden Land_ and _The Whim of the Dragon_, I had maybe 3 or 4 hits in as many months, and each time I e-mailed or called them up, I was told "Sorry, it's already been sold". I think I finally got a copy because one seller added, "but I expect to obtain more copies soon -- interested?". I haven't tried bookfinder.com in a while, but it's nice because it will do searches (but maybe not wantlists) at a whole bunch of sites, so that you don't have to go to them yourself. I stopped using it because it seemed like just about all the relevant hits were known by abebooks, which also has a wantlist. Actually, I haven't used abebooks recently, either (I've got about 90 books in my physical to-read pile, so that'll keep me busy for at least two years -- probably more since I'll buy other books, too, e.g. Steve's!), and I remember someone (a bookseller I think) complaining about ABE doing or planning to do something yucky. 2. Go to a used-book store and see if they'll do a search for you. I think some will ask for a small deposit, which you can then apply to the cost of the book if found, or can obtain entirely as a refund if you lose patience or find a better deal elsewhere. 3. Interlibrary loan is also something to consider. (But my experiences with it haven't been happy. A number of times, it came as microfiche --ok, I probably could have specified I wanted only dead-tree format-- and I didn't enjoy working the reader. Also, sometimes the loan period was rather short. Since I'm finicky about when I want to read a book, a short loan period + random arrival time = unhappy me.) 4. Wait a handful of years: Ace is slowly republishing the early books as omnibuses. Already out: The Book of Jhereg (Jhereg, Yendi, Teckla) and The Book of Taltos (Taltos, Phoenix). My guess is that Orca is, or will soon, go out of print, to set up for The Book of Athyra (Athyra, Orca). 5. I gather there are websites for booktrading, but I haven't used any, and currently doubt I will any time soon. If you want something to do in the meantime, you can try to spot more differences between the omnibuses and the original books. :) - tky From tyan at twcny.rr.com Wed Jun 5 17:45:19 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 20:45:19 -0400 Subject: oops. ebooks? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605172344.00a5b140@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <1fdbnxy.o0pt2zommu2oM%tyan@twcny.rr.com> Steven Brust wrote: > At 06:26 PM 6/5/2002 -0500, Arin Komins wrote: > >Any chance we'll be seeing ebook versions of any of your books? > > I have no plans for anything like that. I don't like them, so I don't feel > any inclination to go that way. Bummer. I think I prefer reading mmpbs becuase they're easier to hold in my hand than tp and hc and easier on the eyes than monitors, but surely a grep-able version would be a great addition [1] to a dead-tree version when searching for things, e.g. during a detailed discussion here or on RASFW. [1] Note to self: agitate for a reader with scroll lock, so that I more easily look for "wasn't there something about that on the lower left hand corner of some (even-numbered) page?"? From lisa at spindot.com Wed Jun 5 17:49:50 2002 From: lisa at spindot.com (Lisa Grant Coffin) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 20:49:50 -0400 Subject: paperbacks vs. hardcovers Message-ID: <013401c20cf4$10c93310$1401a8c0@Spencer> In my estimation, there are three great reasons to choose hardcovers over paperbacks when you love the author. The third one is my impression, and may be wrong, but I sincerely hope not, because I've been doing this for years. 1. They are tactile, luxurious, and last longer. 2. The covers are bigger and better quality. 2. They give the author more money. Lisa Grant Coffin -----------recent re-read favorite dialogue------- "Do irony and grey laughter help ease your fears?" "Yes." -Issola by Steven Brust --------------------------------------------------------------- From lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com Wed Jun 5 18:46:59 2002 From: lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com (Lowki Liesmith) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 21:46:59 -0400 Subject: old books in hard backs Message-ID: -short message- just a question for Stephen. Are any of your older taltos books that aren't TOR coming out in hard back covers?I would love to add them to my personal library. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From frank at exit.com Wed Jun 5 19:14:27 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 19:14:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: oops. ebooks? In-Reply-To: <1FB0FAD0-78E1-11D6-B1F6-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <200206060214.g562ERM6032866@realtime.exit.com> Chris Turkel wrote: > I actually dislike ebooks myself, I really dislike reading on a screen. > I'd rather hold a book, which would have clearer type, then stare a > screen, but that might be just me. Not just you. I'm convinced that electronic books will never catch on until the display is very nearly indistinguishable from a paper book. That may be a while... :-) -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Wed Jun 5 19:35:23 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 21:35:23 -0500 Subject: [dragaera] How far will it go? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605072141.00a63650@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <3CFECA6B.9C6FA980@attbi.com> Steve, You said: > Here are some of the things that'll happen, in order of probability: 1) I die before finishing them > The hell you say. You die before you're done, we're coming after you to Deathgate Falls! Mia From mporter at rogers.com Wed Jun 5 20:27:39 2002 From: mporter at rogers.com (Mark Porter) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 23:27:39 -0400 Subject: On the subject of peppers.....a warning Message-ID: <007201c20d0a$1c95ab40$59a97218@slnt.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Being a fan of cooking myself, I have run into this very same problem. Thankfully, the wonderful world of chemistry provided me with a solution which I will relay here, even though it's quite off-topic. The acid can get really into your skin, I /think/ because it mixes with your natural oils. Since I deal with hot peppers often (salsa is fun to make!), I've found that washing your hands once with soap and water, then covering them with a thin layer of baking soda, then rinsing them again, ensures that you will never be in riduculous amounts of burning pain if you for some reason need to start poking at your cornea. ;) The baking soda will neutralize those wonderful pepper acids lickety-split. Just so this post isn't COMPLETELY off-topic, I will bring up something I've curious about. Steve, I've noticed that you spend time carefully describing meals throughout your books, especially in the Khaavren Romances. As opposed to just saying 'they ate a meal of meat and bread', we get these savoury images of roasted kethna wrapped in warm flour pastries with an assortment of sauteed mushrooms. Have you, or has anyone, ever come up with recipes for some of these delicious meals? ____________________________________ Mark Porter Putting the 'Fun' back in Fundamentalist Dogma From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jun 5 20:45:12 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 20:45:12 -0700 Subject: old books in hard backs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605204454.00a56af0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 09:46 PM 6/5/2002 -0400, Lowki Liesmith wrote: >-short message- > >just a question for Stephen. Are any of your older taltos books that >aren't TOR coming out in hard back covers? Not so far as I know. From books at bofh.com Wed Jun 5 20:38:14 2002 From: books at bofh.com (books at bofh.com) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 20:38:14 -0700 (MST) Subject: On the subject of peppers.....a warning In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 05 Jun 2002 23:27:39 -0400" <007201c20d0a$1c95ab40$59a97218@slnt.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <01KIL2LKGRM60000A5@chud.net> > Being a fan of cooking myself, I have run into this very same problem. >Thankfully, the wonderful world of chemistry provided me with a solution >which I will relay here, even though it's quite off-topic. > The acid can get really into your skin, I /think/ because it mixes with >your >natural oils. Since I deal with hot peppers often (salsa is fun to make!), >I've found that washing your hands once with soap and water, then covering >them with a thin layer of baking soda, then rinsing them again, ensures that >you will never be in riduculous amounts of burning pain if you for some >reason need to start poking at your cornea. ;) The baking soda will >neutralize those wonderful pepper acids lickety-split. I just finished putting together a salsa recipe book for my sister, and we made a few of the recipes before we shipped it off. Living in the southwest, we get access to some Mexican food that is a _tad_ bit better/hotter than most found in the midwest. I have read the messages with regards to jalapeno's (sorry, can't provide correct letters in a 7 bit ascii message) and had to wonder if you all heard the call of the same bird I have. It sounds something like this: "Woosie! Woosie!" :) jalapeno's have a scoville of up to 4500. serrano's start at 7000. habanero. Ahhhhh! I made the mistake of mixing a serrano salsa up partially by hand (wearing gloves for the deribbing and seeding) and my hands had this burn for about 2 hours. But, it was a damn fine salsa. I have not had the ...umm...cajones... to make the Xinpec salsa with habaneros yet. Why yes, now that you mention it, I too hear the bird. :) -Jot p.s.: Note to self, pdf and put online the salsa cookbook. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jun 5 20:51:05 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 20:51:05 -0700 Subject: [dragaera] How far will it go? In-Reply-To: <3CFECA6B.9C6FA980@attbi.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605072141.00a63650@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605205039.00a53e00@pop3.lvcm.com> At 09:35 PM 6/5/2002 -0500, Mia McDavid wrote: >The hell you say. You die before you're done, we're coming after you to >Deathgate Falls! Don't get lost walking the paths. :-) From singram at videotron.ca Wed Jun 5 21:19:37 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 00:19:37 -0400 Subject: [dragaera] How far will it go? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605072141.00a63650@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020605205039.00a53e00@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <001d01c20d11$5f00faa0$17ecca18@ingram> Heh, speaking of maps for the Dragaera books, how about a map of the Paths? :) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Brust" To: "Mia McDavid" Cc: "Christopher Gunning" ; Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 11:51 PM Subject: Re: [dragaera] How far will it go? > At 09:35 PM 6/5/2002 -0500, Mia McDavid wrote: > > >The hell you say. You die before you're done, we're coming after you to > >Deathgate Falls! > > Don't get lost walking the paths. :-) > > From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jun 5 22:17:24 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 22:17:24 -0700 Subject: On the subject of peppers.....a warning In-Reply-To: <007201c20d0a$1c95ab40$59a97218@slnt.phub.net.cable.rogers. com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605221624.00a52740@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:27 PM 6/5/2002 -0400, Mark Porter wrote: > Have you, or has anyone, ever come up with >recipes for some of these delicious meals? Well, you can always ask DDB about anise-jelled winneaserous steak. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jun 5 22:17:46 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 22:17:46 -0700 Subject: [dragaera] How far will it go? In-Reply-To: <001d01c20d11$5f00faa0$17ecca18@ingram> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605072141.00a63650@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020605205039.00a53e00@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605221736.00a51520@pop3.lvcm.com> At 12:19 AM 6/6/2002 -0400, Scott Ingram wrote: >Heh, speaking of maps for the Dragaera books, how about a map of the Paths? >:) Yeah, right. From Raellew at aol.com Thu Jun 6 01:05:14 2002 From: Raellew at aol.com (Raellew at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 04:05:14 EDT Subject: [dragaera] How far will it go? Message-ID: <17e.95501f6.2a3071ba@aol.com> In a message dated 6/6/02, Steven Brust writes: > At 12:19 AM 6/6/2002 -0400, Scott Ingram wrote: >>Heh, speaking of maps for the Dragaera books, how about a map of the Paths? >>:) > >Yeah, right. Oh, go on. Make a few million different mysteriously copy-protected versions.... Rachel Whose parents could spell From FelixEisen at aol.com Thu Jun 6 01:52:48 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 04:52:48 EDT Subject: Another Turn of Subject Message-ID: <12c.12750b9a.2a307ce0@aol.com> Steve -- sorry about this popping into your mbox twice. :/ skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > I don't think I can give a fully satisfying answer to that question... (about why Athyra was written in the 3rd Person and Orca was 1st person multiple) > See? I told you the answer wouldn't be satisfying. Actually, it makes perfect sense to me -- but then, I too write. Some things would simply not come out any other way. Otherwise it'd be like (ObDragaeran) Kragar not having ever gotten kicked out of the House of Dragon. > > Oh, and on a rather ridiculous-sounding note, if you had to convert > > imperials into U.S. dollars, what would an imperial be worth? That's > > something (rather insignificant, true) I was just wondering about... > > The answer that jumps into my head is, of course, $17 to the Imperial. So 1500 Imperials == 25,500 Orbs -- 1 Orb to the dollar. > But that won't hold up because of cultural differences. Of course it's because of cultural differences -- but they're explainable. The problems that we have here is a matter of cost vs. value, and the radical shift in value (as compared to money, i.e. cost) that mass-production in America has worked. You could sit down to an excellent meal for $25 or $35 in the US -- 25-35 Orbs. But if you walked down a road in, say, Hungary (hurrah hurrah) and sat down in a little tavern and had that very same meal, it would cost you much less in American dollars -- not because the dollar is stronger (well, maybe a little), but because the economics of the situation are entirely different. The eggs come from the henhouse; the onions and peppers from the garden. The kethna (or beef, or pork, or whatever -- what IS kethna, anyhow?) is bought over at the market. It'll cost you three or four USD -- or about the same number of Orbs. The value is the same -- a great meal. You want boots? Vlad won't think twice about getting a pair of 50I boots -- which, to 'us', would be $850. But then, you also have to remember how Vlad's boots are made -- to order, shaped to his feet, not processed and stamped and sold in racks. I seem to recall a place in London that takes forms of peoples' feet, adjusting them (or redoing them completely) every two years, and whenever you want boots, shoes, whatever, they make them to the cast they have. Cost? $2,000+. At Pennsic War (a place I greatly recommend if you're in the SCA, and doubly so if you're a certain SKZB) there is a bootmaker who can make one pair of boots for you by the end of the War (1-2 weeks), but only if you get to him early. His cost? I seem to recall $400 for a basic pair, and if you want extra designs, well, it goes up from there. You may pay 'only' 250 USD for a pair of expensive off-the-rack boots, but they won't hold up for 7 days of constant on-your-feet 5-miles-daily walking the way the ones made by the guy at Pennsic do. The cost, in this case, is equal to the actual value. Vlad hates riding, so he's damn certain that he can 'easily' walk ten, twenty miles a day in his boots. They match up oddly well; it just requires a shift into 'similar circumstances'. --- As a side note, something I (eventually) recognized, and found quite intriguing: there is no archery on Dragaera. Throwing knives, shuriken, darts, javelins, they all made it. The bow and crossbow didn't. However, considering that sorcery is the 'equivalent' of firearms, it does make some sense. With the aforementioned weapons, you CAN just send a prayer to Verra and throw them, they'll make the enemy duck. You really have to practice with a bow, and why practice a bow when you could be practicing sorcery instead? I find the development of the flashstone to be an interesting/amusing parallel to gunpowder weapons, however -- the sticks (Orca not being handy, and my memory for once failing me) being the equivalent to arquebuses, working up to the 'pistols' of the flashstones in the Khaavren romances... By the way, Steve, you got me to link to a webpage of 'The Three Musketeers', dammit. And, IMO, you write better prose than Dumas -- but on the flip side, he did it first... :P :) Knightmarshall Felix Surnamed Eisen, or "Iron Felix" Hand of Morr, The Order of Bones From FelixEisen at aol.com Thu Jun 6 02:03:16 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 05:03:16 EDT Subject: RPG Message-ID: <158.eeb98db.2a307f54@aol.com> One simple system: HellMUSH. Considering that I'm (sort of by process of elimination) running the thing, the system currently used by HellMUSH would -- and is -- perfect for a Dragaera RPG. Specific levels of attributes cost increasing XP values; the same (though a bit less steep an incline) for skills. Skills have 'primary' attributes, but they are by no means exclusive -- more a 'default setting' than anything. Skills in various sorceries are (or would be) available, performing general categories of things; depending on whether you're affecting an individual in a fast-and-nasty battle, or working your will across a barony (or a princedom), the sorcery takes a different period of time, and can/not be particularly detailed. Granted, tweaking would be necessary, but the system is home-grown, and is only loosely inspired by the White Wolf and Amber Diceless systems. Heh. I didn't create it, but by god I enjoy it. We even have our Sethra and our Morollan 'reflections' there... Me, I play Sethra. Well, what the drek did you expect? The best response ever given me is saved in my notes ... "Christ, she's cold. She gives me the creeps." -- Count Micantos, regarding Hela, Princess of Niflheim. And, of course, the greeting page mixes quotes from two great Hellish authors -- John Milton's _Paradise_Lost_, and Steven K. Zoltan Brust's _To_Reign_In_Hell_. FYI -- http://www.hell.godlike.com or telnet://hell.godlike.com:6660 Knightmarshall Felix Surnamed Eisen, or "Iron Felix" Hand of Morr, The Order of Bones From rachael at daedala.net Thu Jun 6 06:09:09 2002 From: rachael at daedala.net (Rachael Lininger) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 08:09:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Athyra In-Reply-To: <1EFD2CEA-78E2-11D6-B1F6-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: On Jun 5, Chris Turkel said: >Try Alibris http://www.alibris.com/ >They seem to have out of print books galore. I found Athyra for $74 (!) >I have no idea why it's that expensive. Alibris is usually pricier than the other book services. ABE books and half.com are usually much better. I use bookfinder.com for price-checking, though...and having checked the prices, ATHYRA is really expensive. $40-$50 is more usual. If I didn't hate omnibi, I'd sell mine and replace it with the reprints. Rachael -- Rachael From the Dilbert Newsletter: Lininger "You should talk to her. rachael@ She is a minefield of information." daedala.net From rachael at daedala.net Thu Jun 6 06:18:18 2002 From: rachael at daedala.net (Rachael Lininger) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 08:18:18 -0500 (CDT) Subject: On the subject of peppers.....a warning Message-ID: On Jun 5, Steven Brust said: >At 11:27 PM 6/5/2002 -0400, Mark Porter wrote: >> Have you, or has anyone, ever come up with >>recipes for some of these delicious meals? > >Well, you can always ask DDB about anise-jelled winneaserous steak. Say, do they have poppyseeds in Dragaera? Do they call them anything? What would they call [googles] makos kalacs? I call it "Hungarian poppyseed strudel thing" when I make it. Rachael -- Rachael From the Dilbert Newsletter: Lininger "You should talk to her. rachael@ She is a minefield of information." daedala.net From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Jun 6 06:39:57 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 09:39:57 -0400 Subject: RPG Message-ID: <68E12902.59CC1EFB.0296E7C9@aol.com> Sorry, but I have never liked MUSHes or MUDs. They just don't appeal to me, for some reason. I think what I have in mind will appeal to a variety of gamers with different likes and dislikes. If time permits, I'll try and throw something together this weekend and then let everyone pick it to death. Stacy From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Jun 6 08:00:16 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 08:00:16 -0700 Subject: On the subject of peppers.....a warning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606075835.00a83900@pop3.lvcm.com> At 08:18 AM 6/6/2002 -0500, Rachael Lininger wrote: >Say, do they have poppyseeds in Dragaera? Do they call them anything? There must be poppyseeds at least in Fanario. If they ever come up, I'll either call them poppyseeds, or the Hungarian for it, depending on context. I'm sure the Dragaerans keep them around to account for positive results on drug tests. No, wait... From nthuleen at students.wisc.edu Thu Jun 6 09:31:41 2002 From: nthuleen at students.wisc.edu (Nancy Thuleen) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 11:31:41 -0500 Subject: Another Turn of Subject In-Reply-To: <12c.12750b9a.2a307ce0@aol.com> References: <12c.12750b9a.2a307ce0@aol.com> Message-ID: At 4:52 -0400 06.6.2002, FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: > As a side note, something I (eventually) recognized, and found quite > intriguing: there is no archery on Dragaera. Throwing knives, shuriken, > darts, javelins, they all made it. The bow and crossbow didn't. Hmmm. I sure thought that these were some sort of bow-and-arrow-like weapon: the "javelin shooters" on p.248-9, in the aftermath of which Vlad explains "one of the javelins had fallen about two feet from my right hand ... it was much smaller than the ones we were throwing, and had feathers near the back, and, at the very end, the wood had a small notch." Virt notes that the launchers (she doesn't call them bows, but I assume they are) use "green, bendable wood" with a string. Although I agree that the tradeoff between sorcery and archery is pretty apt, overall. Also, supporting your argument, the "javelin shooters" seem to be pretty uncommon, considering Vlad and Loiosh had no idea what they were, and even Virt didn't recognize them at first. (Xthread: now see, if I'd had an e-book version of Dragon, I wouldn't have had to flip through so many pages -- but on the other hand, as someone else pointed out, I knew the scene I was looking for was at the top half of a right-hand side page, and I don't know if I'd have been able to find that in an e-book. Still, I'm for them, in general terms.) - Nancy. From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Jun 6 09:37:26 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 12:37:26 -0400 Subject: Another Turn of Subject In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The relative rarity of bows on Dragaera would explain why someone hadn't thought of simply shooting down poor Vlad's Jhereg's with an arrow, not that it would be that easy, of course :) -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Jun 6 09:59:57 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 12:59:57 -0400 Subject: Group Reads Message-ID: <3939C3B2.64C01BEB.0296E7C9@aol.com> Would people be interested in doing group reads of the books? Meaning we all read parts of the book at the same time, and someone volunteers to "lead" (basically start off) the discussion of said part? Stacy From dragaera at juima.org Thu Jun 6 11:34:18 2002 From: dragaera at juima.org (Sander) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 20:34:18 +0200 Subject: oops. ebooks? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605172344.00a5b140@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <3CFFAB2A.7090106@juima.org> Steven Brust wrote: > At 06:26 PM 6/5/2002 -0500, Arin Komins wrote: >>Any chance we'll be seeing ebook versions of any of your books? > > I have no plans for anything like that. I don't like them, so I don't feel > any inclination to go that way. Steve, as someone with a distinct loathing of eBooks, thank you for that! Though actually it isn't eBooks themselves I hate so much, as it is the way publishers handle them. Proprietary encrypted formats (which you can be certain not to be able to read 20 years down the road), often no way to copy/paste or print text... It's not good. Having an electronic version of stories definitely is a great goodness though. As Thomas mentioned in another reply: grepping! Tad Williams is publishing Shadowmarch - http://www.shadowmarch.com - in pure HTML, and almost every week I find myself grepping through the text in search of all references to this or that obscure item or person. That way I do like the concept of online publishing (even though it's still very hard on your eyes), but publishers unfortunately seem incapable of trusting readers as Tad does. May you always find shade and water, Sander From mss2 at attbi.com Thu Jun 6 11:40:09 2002 From: mss2 at attbi.com (Michael S. Schiffer) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 13:40:09 -0500 Subject: oops. ebooks? In-Reply-To: <3CFFAB2A.7090106@juima.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605172344.00a5b140@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606133622.02ff0868@mail.attbi.com> At 08:34 PM 6/6/2002 +0200, Sander wrote: >Steven Brust wrote: > > At 06:26 PM 6/5/2002 -0500, Arin Komins wrote: > >>Any chance we'll be seeing ebook versions of any of your books? > > > > I have no plans for anything like that. I don't like them, so I don't > feel > > any inclination to go that way. > >Steve, as someone with a distinct loathing of eBooks, thank you for that! >Though actually it isn't eBooks themselves I hate so much, as it is the >way publishers handle them. Proprietary encrypted formats (which you can >be certain not to be able to read 20 years down the road), often no way >to copy/paste or print text... It's not good. There are exceptions, though. Baen is the big one of the major SF publishers. Fictionwise is also good (between the two of them, most of Lois McMaster Bujold's stuff is available in open e-book format). (Fictionwise has also started selling encrypted books if it's the only way to get it from the publisher, but I just ignore that half of the newsletter. :-) ) But yeah, most of the majors are stuck with a bad model, in some cases because the final say is at a level above theirs. Mike From dragaera at juima.org Thu Jun 6 11:55:06 2002 From: dragaera at juima.org (Sander) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 20:55:06 +0200 Subject: oops. ebooks? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605172344.00a5b140@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <3CFFB00A.6050708@juima.org> Michael S. Schiffer wrote: > At 08:34 PM 6/6/2002 +0200, Sander wrote: >> Though actually it isn't eBooks themselves I hate so much, as it is the >> way publishers handle them. Proprietary encrypted formats (which you can >> be certain not to be able to read 20 years down the road), often no way >> to copy/paste or print text... It's not good. > > There are exceptions, though. Baen is the big one of the major SF > publishers. Fictionwise is also good (between the two of them, most of > Lois McMaster Bujold's stuff is available in open e-book > format). Indeed. I love those things Eric Flint writes for the Baen library. How he has hard data that he's selling more book by giving them away in electronic format for free. Baen definitely has become one of my favorite publishers because of their free library. Didn't know fictionwise yet - I'll check them out, thanks. May you always find shade and water, Sander From dragaera at juima.org Thu Jun 6 12:02:20 2002 From: dragaera at juima.org (Sander) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 21:02:20 +0200 Subject: paperbacks vs. hardcovers References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605172344.00a5b140@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <3CFFB1BC.1070008@juima.org> Lisa Grant Coffin wrote: > In my estimation, there are three great reasons to choose hardcovers > over paperbacks when you love the author. The third one is my > impression, and may be wrong, but I sincerely hope not, because I've > been doing this for years. > 3. They give the author more money. That's indeed true. Depending on volumes (and who the author is), an author gets something like $0.50 for paperbacks and $3-$5 for hardcovers. I have no idea where that information came from - except that I read it within the last few weeks. Probably something either Tad Williams or Robin Hobb said. Heh, could even be this list though - growing way beyond what I'd expected. I hope I can keep up the reading. :) May you always find shade and water, Sander From sraun at fireopal.org Thu Jun 6 13:06:41 2002 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 15:06:41 -0500 Subject: oops. ebooks? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606133622.02ff0868@mail.attbi.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605172344.00a5b140@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020606133622.02ff0868@mail.attbi.com> Message-ID: <20020606200641.GB30207@fireopal.org> On Thu, Jun 06, 2002 at 01:40:09PM -0500, Michael S. Schiffer wrote: > There are exceptions, though. Baen is the big one of the major SF > publishers. Fictionwise is also good (between the two of them, most of > Lois McMaster Bujold's stuff is available in open e-book > format). (Fictionwise has also started selling encrypted books if it's the > only way to get it from the publisher, but I just ignore that half of the > newsletter. :-) ) But yeah, most of the majors are stuck with a bad > model, in some cases because the final say is at a level above theirs. I have a manual recipe for converting fictionwise KML files into HTML. Works rather nicely. Now, someday I need to sit down and learn enough perl so I don't _have_ to do it manually any more! -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Jun 6 14:34:26 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 17:34:26 -0400 Subject: paperbacks vs. hardcovers In-Reply-To: <3CFFB1BC.1070008@juima.org> Message-ID: On 6/6/02 3:02 PM, "Sander" wrote: > Lisa Grant Coffin wrote: >> In my estimation, there are three great reasons to choose hardcovers >> over paperbacks when you love the author. The third one is my >> impression, and may be wrong, but I sincerely hope not, because I've >> been doing this for years. > >> 3. They give the author more money. > > That's indeed true. Depending on volumes (and who the author is), an > author gets something like $0.50 for paperbacks and $3-$5 for hardcovers. > I have no idea where that information came from - except that I read it > within the last few weeks. Probably something either Tad Williams or > Robin Hobb said. Heh, could even be this list though - growing way > beyond what I'd expected. I hope I can keep up the reading. :) > > May you always find shade and water, > Sander > Lawrence Watt-Evans once told me a figure that sounds like your number, though he expressed it in percentages. That's one reason why I'll buy hardcovers from favorites: they make more money and (in theory) will have incentive to write more. From Raellew at aol.com Thu Jun 6 15:46:54 2002 From: Raellew at aol.com (Raellew at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 18:46:54 EDT Subject: [dragaera] Re: Athyra Message-ID: In a message dated 6/6/02, Rachael Lininger writes: >Alibris is usually pricier than the other book services. ABE books and >half.com are usually much better. I use bookfinder.com for >price-checking, though...and having checked the prices, ATHYRA is really >expensive. $40-$50 is more usual. Half.com had a copy a few months ago for $20. I hesitated, and it was gone. I'm still kicking myself. ATHYRA can't be as rare as the prices make it seem. If it was, everybody and his dog wouldn't have $50 copies to sell to people who don't have copies because everyone and his dog is selling them for $50. Alright, maybe that's a wee bit of an exaggeration. It still seems too common to be so expensive. I can only assume there are people actually *paying* those prices. Rae From dragaera at juima.org Thu Jun 6 16:12:42 2002 From: dragaera at juima.org (Sander) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 01:12:42 +0200 Subject: [dragaera] Re: Athyra References: Message-ID: <3CFFEC6A.5040009@juima.org> Raellew at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/6/02, Rachael Lininger writes: >>Alibris is usually pricier than the other book services. ABE books and >>half.com are usually much better. I use bookfinder.com for >>price-checking, though...and having checked the prices, ATHYRA is really >>expensive. $40-$50 is more usual. > > Half.com had a copy a few months ago for $20. I hesitated, and it was gone. > I'm still kicking myself. > > ATHYRA can't be as rare as the prices make it seem. If it was, everybody and > his dog wouldn't have $50 copies to sell to people who don't have copies > because everyone and his dog is selling them for $50. *blinks* I figured the $40-$50 comment was just a fluke, but these prices are for real? I bought Athyra six months ago for $4 or so, and that while I live in the Netherlands where you can never ever find even moderately rare books. (The book wasn't in mint condition of course, but still more than reasonable quality for a used book.) Looking at some auction sites these $40-$75 prices do indeed appear to be common though. *shakes his head in wonder* Any other of Steve's books that go for similar prices? May you always find shade and water, Sander From dan-tain_ishanti at attbi.com Thu Jun 6 16:07:05 2002 From: dan-tain_ishanti at attbi.com (Brad Crawford) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:07:05 -0700 Subject: Group Reads References: <3939C3B2.64C01BEB.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <003301c20dae$e0591400$8fd47e18@we.client2.attbi.com> Great idea. I'm totally up for that! Brad ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 9:59 AM Subject: Group Reads > Would people be interested in doing group reads of the books? Meaning we all read parts of the book at the same time, and someone volunteers to "lead" (basically start off) the discussion of said part? > > Stacy > From Gaertk at aol.com Thu Jun 6 16:50:49 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 19:50:49 -0400 Subject: Interlibrary Loan (was: Athyra ) Message-ID: <3B9867E0.2CF55781.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Wed, 5 Jun 2002 ?8:39:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) writes: > Interlibrary loan is also something to consider. ?(But my > experiences with it haven't been happy. ?A number of > times, it came as microfiche --ok, I probably could have > specified I wanted only dead-tree format-- and I didn't > enjoy working the reader. ?Also, sometimes the loan > period was rather short. ?Since I'm finicky about when I > want to read a book, a short loan period + random arrival > time = unhappy me.) Were you asking for periodicals or something? I've never heard of anyone putting books on microfiche. I've had really good experince with interlibrary loans, and I'm usually given about three weeks to read them (longer in some cases). Sure, you never know when it'll show up, but that's a small price to get something you can't find anywhere else. And so far, ILL has always found what I ask for, even Lindholm's _Wizard of the Pigeons_, Erikson's _Gardens of the Moon_ (in the ultra-rare trade paper edition), Lem's _A Perfect Vacuum_, the _Folktales of Hungary_ mentioned in another thread, and Mirrlees' _Lud-in-the-Mist_. AND the library I work for does participate in ILL, and has a copy of Athyra sitting on the shelf right now (well, a couple of hours ago, but it's probably still there). > If you want something to do in the meantime, you can try > to spot more differences between the omnibuses and the > original books. :) I bought the omnibuses for that very reason. Maybe a group read will encourage me to do it. Of course, the Author could save us the trouble by posting his change log. :) --KG From akomins at midway.uchicago.edu Thu Jun 6 17:06:36 2002 From: akomins at midway.uchicago.edu (Arin Komins) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 19:06:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: oops. ebooks? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605172344.00a5b140@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Jun 2002, Steven Brust wrote: : :At 06:26 PM 6/5/2002 -0500, Arin Komins wrote: :>Any chance we'll be seeing ebook versions of any of your books? : :I have no plans for anything like that. I don't like them, so I don't feel :any inclination to go that way. OK. I much prefer the good old fashioned printed book, but ebooks are good for goofing off at meetings. and reading on planes. ...but I'll be happy to stick to whatever comes out ;-) Arin -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Arin Komins akomins at uchicago.edu Manager of Web Systems Architecture University of Chicago/NSIT tel: (773)834-4087 1155 E. 60th St. #302B Chicago, IL 60637 fax: (773)702-0559 ------------------------------------------------------------------ From grapawy at yahoo.com Thu Jun 6 18:41:44 2002 From: grapawy at yahoo.com (Gregory Rapawy) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 18:41:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another Turn of Subject In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605170501.00a5dc00@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <20020607014144.91721.qmail@web21104.mail.yahoo.com> --- Steven Brust wrote: > Let's say Vlad earns $1500 imperials. In our terms, > that would be about $25,000. [example deleted] > You see the problem? Things don't match up. That would follow from (1) different marginal costs for labor and capital in Dragaera (as well as different technologies) and (2) an absence of trade between Dragaera and the U.S. Both seem reasonable assumptions. It makes me think about another question, which is: what does the Dragaeran economy at the time of the Vlad series look like? There are two observations that seem hard to reconcile: 1. In _Orca_, Kiera describes to Vlad the trouble caused by the death of Fyres. This trouble looks remarkably like the difficulties recently experienced by the U.S. savings & loan industry. Part of the trouble is caused by (or, perhaps more accurately, not prevented by) the Imperial system of banking regulation. From the discussion it seems that many people are borrowing money from many other people on a scale that suggests a functioning and liquid capital market. 2. If Dragaera has anything that looks like real-world capital-intensive industries -- either in the agricultural or manufacturing sectors -- Vlad hasn't mentioned it. In _Phoenix_, Verra tells Vlad in essence that the revolutionaries are working off a theory of society that does not correspond to the present state of the Empire. (Crossreferencing with what we know about the arrival of humanity on Dragaera -- and here I am thinking about the Serioli in _Dragon_ and Sethra in _Issola_ -- maybe humans brought that kind of social theory with them when they came.) Since the theory of society looks an awful lot like Marxism, we might guess that Dragaera does not look much like industrial capitalism, which corresponds most of what we've heard about it. So where is the capital generated by the bankers going? Someone has to be using it to generate a return, or no one would bother investing it. Some of it is going to what looks like a fairly large transportation industry -- Kiera's remarks about the importance of trade (which she describes primarily in terms of exchange of raw materials) to the Empire, and the lime from one area used to make bricks in another, may indicate that Dragaeran methods of production involve proportionally more effort spent on moving things from one place to another than ours do. Some of it -- a lot of it, probably -- is going to fund Imperial borrowing. (There is a pretty interesting discussion of Imperial finances in the early part of _Five Hundred Years After_, but of course the Interregnum would have produced drastic economic changes, along with changes in every other part of Dragaeran society.) Unless the economy is growing fast, though, the Empire won't be able to offer a particularly generous rate of return on its equivalent of Treasury bills; and if the Empire can't offer a good return, its borrowing shouldn't be able to support the kind of market that Kiera describes in _Orca_. There's also sorcery, of course. It may be that the Dragaeran society is relatively capital-intensive because it spends huge amounts of resources on training and maintaining sorcerers -- and according to Vlad at various times, almost everyone is now a sorcerer. So Dragaera has a system involving large investments in human capital? Or maybe the unexplained capital investments are somewhere else, somewhere that Vlad hasn't described because he isn't interested in it. One place to look for the answers to these would be the lives of the Houses described as bourgeois -- Jhegaala, I think, and Chreotha, and maybe a few others -- which are the ones Vlad very rarely talks about. -- Greg Rapawy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From Beldarrin at aol.com Thu Jun 6 19:09:20 2002 From: Beldarrin at aol.com (Beldarrin at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 22:09:20 EDT Subject: [dragaera] Re: Athyra Message-ID: <140.f8f30fb.2a316fd0@aol.com> Hmm... I kept looking for "Athyra" since I finished "Jhereg" and I saw it mostly for $40+. Lucky for me, while looking for Final Fantasy paraphernalia on e-bay, I got the brilliant idea of looking for "Athyra" on e-bay, too, and then got disgruntled and starting checking Amazon and Barnes & Noble online religiously (like four or five times a day). After about two weeks of doing this, I (well, okay, it was actually my husband - hey, even they're useful once in a while!) found a copy on Amazon for only $16 plus $3 shipping & handling. Deciding not to look a gift horse in the mouth, I purchased it right away. And so, the moral to this story is, just keep checking - on e-bay, Amazon, and Barnes & Noble... Also (and yes, this is a longshot), check out local used book stores. Some people don't know the treasures they have! ~ Stephles the Great From Beldarrin at aol.com Thu Jun 6 19:16:29 2002 From: Beldarrin at aol.com (Beldarrin at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 22:16:29 EDT Subject: Another Turn of Subject Message-ID: Thanks for answering my question, Steve. Actually, it did make perfect sense and it was rather satisfying, if only in that I my assumption was at least marginally right. :) (A rarity, indeed!) It's difficult for me to think along non-abstract lines, so saying that it just "felt" right is sufficient fuel to sate my curiosity. (To this point, I'd say "Athyra" is my favorite of the Taltos novels. I literally couldn't stop reading it on my day off last week and just keep reading and reading and reading. I can't quite figure out why, but I really, really liked it a lot, and it was definitely worth $20, even in paperback, while I prefer anyhow.) Just proves a point: Intuition is a better guide than logic. (Or is it really subconcious logical processes that lead us to have instantaneous, gut feelings, or intuition? Ack, why does everything have to be so damn grey??) 'Tis all for now, Steph From tyan at twcny.rr.com Thu Jun 6 19:27:04 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 22:27:04 -0400 Subject: Interlibrary Loan (was: Athyra ) In-Reply-To: <3B9867E0.2CF55781.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <1fddmuy.1wzp5v01e2pedoM%tyan@twcny.rr.com> Konrad wrote: > tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) writes: > > > Interlibrary loan is also something to consider. ?(But my > > experiences with it haven't been happy. ?A number of > > times, it came as microfiche --ok, I probably could have > > specified I wanted only dead-tree format-- and I didn't > > enjoy working the reader. ?Also, sometimes the loan > > period was rather short. ?Since I'm finicky about when I > > want to read a book, a short loan period + random arrival > > time = unhappy me.) > > Were you asking for periodicals or something? Nope, SF. I think I read two of Sheri S Tepper's Marianne books that way. I think one of the rolls also happened to have a book by Vonda McIntyre, whose books I was also trying to read, but I wasn't in the mood at the time, so it did me no good. >I've never > heard of anyone putting books on microfiche. Well, I guess books take up space, and libraries have limited space. Therefore, they must either cull books or convert them into a form that uses less space. > I've had really good experince with interlibrary loans, and > I'm usually given about three weeks to read them (longer in > some cases). Sure, you never know when it'll show up, but > that's a small price to get something you can't find > anywhere else. I don't expect to use it much again for fiction. I suspect I'll just about always have tons of other choices readily available as I wait for a used copy to become available or for it to come back into print. (I just read _Tea with the Black Dragon_.) I guess it's more of a problem for me than other people. If I were less picky about what to read next, my physical to-read pile would be much smaller. (Or, maybe given my willingness to systematically knock books off it, it would be even larger? Hm....) As it is, I look through and think, nah, I don't think I feel like reading that, or, I want to read a good book and that seems like it would fit the bill -- except that I'm feeling too tired to properly appreciate, etc. So I go reread some other book or go buy a book from my electronic or mental to-read list. I think Octavia Butler's _Survivor_ may have been the book with a one week period. Argh! (I now own a copy so that I can reread it whenever I want. In case you haven't heard, Butler retroactively hates that book and has vowed it will never be reprinted.) > And so far, ILL has always found what I ask > for, even Lindholm's _Wizard of the Pigeons_, Erikson's > _Gardens of the Moon_ (in the ultra-rare trade paper > edition), Lem's _A Perfect Vacuum_, the _Folktales of > Hungary_ mentioned in another thread, and Mirrlees' > _Lud-in-the-Mist_. I'd already given up on ILL when I wanted to read The Secret Country trilogy. Is David Goldfarb on this list? If so, he has a, um, interesting story to tell. > AND the library I work for does participate in ILL, and has > a copy of Athyra sitting on the shelf right now (well, a > couple of hours ago, but it's probably still there). Maybe I should give ILL another whirl: I suppose if I'm not in the mood when a book arrives, I can always return it and resubmit a request. (Maybe I should start doing that with my mail order DVD rental service, instead of hanging on to some DVDs for months....) > > If you want something to do in the meantime, you can try > > to spot more differences between the omnibuses and the > > original books. :) > > I bought the omnibuses for that very reason. Maybe a group > read will encourage me to do it. > > Of course, the Author could save us the trouble by posting > his change log. :) That reminds me. One thing I really, really, REALLY want out of e-books is the ability to annotate them *and* share annotations with others. Hm, maybe with some sort of version control so that many people could pool their efforts.... (I want a similar feature for movies, too, plus the ability to share, I guess they'd be called scripts, e.g. to allow viewers to pass their edits for what a "viewer's cut" of a movie.) From ijamie at sympatico.ca Thu Jun 6 20:55:37 2002 From: ijamie at sympatico.ca (Ian sympatico) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 23:55:37 -0400 Subject: Group Reads References: <3939C3B2.64C01BEB.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <002001c20dd7$2f3f4300$85815f41@idirect.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 12:59 PM Subject: Group Reads > Would people be interested in doing group reads of the books? Meaning we all read parts of the book at the same time, and someone volunteers to "lead" (basically start off) the discussion of said part? > > Stacy > I like the idea as well. I suggest we pick a chapter or 2 from one of the books and spend a couple days firing comments and conjecture back and forth. I am not sure Steve will be comfortable with the close scrutiny, he may change some of his ideas for future stories. Ian From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Jun 6 21:00:04 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 21:00:04 -0700 Subject: Another Turn of Subject In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606205808.00a4cc50@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:16 PM 6/6/2002 -0400, Beldarrin at aol.com wrote: > Actually, it did make perfect > (To this point, I'd say "Athyra" is my >favorite of the Taltos novels. That's nice to hear. Thanks. Generally, it my second Most Hated, after TECKLA. > (Or is it really >subconcious logical processes that lead us to have instantaneous, gut >feelings, or intuition? Trotsky defined inspiration as the creative unity of the conscious and the unconscious. I think that's about the best I've heard yet. :-) From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Jun 6 20:57:22 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 20:57:22 -0700 Subject: Another Turn of Subject In-Reply-To: <20020607014144.91721.qmail@web21104.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605170501.00a5dc00@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606205005.00a54080@pop3.lvcm.com> At 06:41 PM 6/6/2002 -0700, Gregory Rapawy wrote: >--- Steven Brust wrote: > > > Let's say Vlad earns $1500 imperials. In our terms, > > that would be about $25,000. > >[example deleted] > > > You see the problem? Things don't match up. > >That would follow from (1) different marginal costs >for labor and capital in Dragaera (as well as >different technologies) and (2) an absence of trade >between Dragaera and the U.S. Both seem reasonable >assumptions. Oh, sure, it's *reasonable.* But my point is, that a simple dollar translation isn't terribly useful. >It makes me think about another question, which is: >what does the Dragaeran economy at the time of the >Vlad series look like? It's strange and complex. In many ways, the culture is about that of Renaissance to Reformation Europe (and banking in that period was *very* complex--check 16th Century Italy or 17th Century England. Sheesh). But it is not at all consistant. I have specifically mentioned kerosene several times. Okay, what does the existence of kerosene imply? Work it out. (In Viscount I've gotten a bit more obvious and made explicit references to refineries). In essence, you have a strong cultural bias for a feudel economy, which, quite naturally, is going to strangle capitalist development. Then you have sorcery, which simultaneously acts in place of technology (ie, making labor more productive) and to stiffle it. The result is a society that is caught, trying desperately to hold motionless (and, in Vlad's time, just beginning to fail) with a whole lot of different forces all pushing very strongly in incompatible directions. Oh...and if all that weren't enough, remember that you've mostly seen the world through the eyes of Vlad, who has no clue, and Paarfi, who is convinced he knows everything. From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Jun 6 19:33:27 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 22:33:27 -0400 Subject: Another Turn of Subject In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 6/6/02 10:16 PM, "Beldarrin at aol.com" wrote: > Thanks for answering my question, Steve. Actually, it did make perfect > sense and it was rather satisfying, if only in that I my assumption was at > least marginally right. :) (A rarity, indeed!) It's difficult for me to > think along non-abstract lines, so saying that it just "felt" right is > sufficient fuel to sate my curiosity. (To this point, I'd say "Athyra" is my > favorite of the Taltos novels. I literally couldn't stop reading it on my > day off last week and just keep reading and reading and reading. I can't > quite figure out why, but I really, really liked it a lot, and it was > definitely worth $20, even in paperback, while I prefer anyhow.) Just proves > a point: Intuition is a better guide than logic. (Or is it really > subconcious logical processes that lead us to have instantaneous, gut > feelings, or intuition? Ack, why does everything have to be so damn grey??) > > 'Tis all for now, > Steph Funny, Athyra was my least favorite Vlad book. My favorite is Jhereg, followed by Yendi. Yes Steve you like to bash poor Yendi but I thought it was a great kick your feet up and read book. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Jun 6 21:17:29 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 21:17:29 -0700 Subject: Chinese Emperor Joke: The Sequel In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606205808.00a4cc50@pop3.lvcm.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606210144.00a4f030@pop3.lvcm.com> We all know, of course, how the artisan for his Majesty the Emperor of India at last agreed to accompany the artisan for his Majesty the Emperor of China (and, of course, the ubiquitous executioner) back to China to repair the bush in exchange for two delicacies, but not many know what happened when they got there. At last, thanks the uncovering of certain ancient scrolls, this can now be revealed. When at last (delete 6-8 pages of description of calamitous events) the three of them made it back to China, they were greeted by appalling news: There had been yet *another* storm, the equal to the one that had damaged the famous Glass Bush, and in the course of it, all of the Imperial pigs and Imperial chickens had escaped! Now the artisan from India had been promised two meals in exchange for his help: pork Ala Chinese Emperor, and chicken Ala Chinese Emperor; and he had no intention of engaging in the difficult task of repairing a Glass Bush without the delicacies he'd been promised. When the situation was explained to his Majesty the Emperor of China, all he could think to do was to command all of the Buddhist Monks to pray as hard as they could for the pigs and the chickens to find their way back. The Chinese artisan, however (being a rather materialist sort of fellow, as many artisans are), didn't have much faith in this solution, and he suggested that an emissary be sent to Japan in an effort to purchase more pigs and chickens. After some thought (and after a week's prayers by the monks produced neither bacon nor drumstick), the Emperor agreed, and the artisan himself (still manacled to the executioner, of course) was sent to Japan. Months and months went by with no word from the artisan. In the meantime, the artisan from his Majesty the Emperor of India was, not to put too fine a point on it, stubbornly sitting on his duff, waiting for the food he'd been promised. At length, the head of the local Buddhist monastery had a message sent to the artisan in Japan. The message said, "We've been praying so hard for these chickens and pigs that we've been forced to neglect our other duties. Of course, we are only too happy to continue, but we would like to know how things are going in Japan, because if you have secured the stock, we can get back to our other concerns." After several weeks, a reply was received by carrier pigeon: "No ham, no fowl; pray on." From lisa at spindot.com Thu Jun 6 21:40:50 2002 From: lisa at spindot.com (Lisa Grant Coffin) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 00:40:50 -0400 Subject: regarding banking in the Empire Message-ID: <002c01c20ddd$81b520e0$1401a8c0@Spencer> Hello >--- Steven Brust wrote: >It's strange and complex. In many ways, the culture is about that of >Renaissance to Reformation Europe (and banking in that period was *very* >complex--check 16th Century Italy or 17th Century England. Sheesh). But >it is not at all consistant. I have always found there was an interesting corallary between the banking systems in The Empire and the historical moneylending practices of both the jews and the knights templar.........also some of the more dubious consequences that went along with them...... Lisa Grant Coffin From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Jun 6 21:47:48 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 21:47:48 -0700 Subject: regarding banking in the Empire In-Reply-To: <002c01c20ddd$81b520e0$1401a8c0@Spencer> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606214714.00a71170@pop3.lvcm.com> At 12:40 AM 6/7/2002 -0400, Lisa Grant Coffin wrote: >Hello > >--- Steven Brust wrote: > > >It's strange and complex. In many ways, the culture is about that of > >Renaissance to Reformation Europe (and banking in that period was *very* > >complex--check 16th Century Italy or 17th Century England. Sheesh). But > >it is not at all consistant. > >I have always found there was an interesting corallary between the banking >systems in The Empire and the historical moneylending practices of both >the jews and the knights templar.........also some of the more dubious >consequences that went along with them...... God, I love having intelligent readers. From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Jun 6 21:46:09 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 23:46:09 -0500 Subject: Another Turn of Subject In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606205808.00a4cc50@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606205808.00a4cc50@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <20020607044609.GI6354@infodancer.org> On Thu, Jun 06, 2002 at 09:00:04PM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: > At 10:16 PM 6/6/2002 -0400, Beldarrin at aol.com wrote: > > Actually, it did make perfect > > (To this point, I'd say "Athyra" is my > >favorite of the Taltos novels. > That's nice to hear. Thanks. Generally, it my second Most Hated, after > TECKLA. Why do you dislike TECKLA? I've always liked it; mainly because it is the first book where Vlad shows himself as more than a wisecracking, badass assassin with a racial inferiority complex. It's where I point people to when starting them on the series, saying something along the lines of "Here is where it starts to get interesting." -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 240 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20020606/f1fd1811/attachment.pgp From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Jun 6 22:14:32 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 22:14:32 -0700 Subject: Another Turn of Subject In-Reply-To: <20020607044609.GI6354@infodancer.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606205808.00a4cc50@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020606205808.00a4cc50@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606221316.00a42d80@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:46 PM 6/6/2002 -0500, Matthew Hunter wrote: >On Thu, Jun 06, 2002 at 09:00:04PM -0700, Steven Brust > wrote: > > At 10:16 PM 6/6/2002 -0400, Beldarrin at aol.com wrote: > > > Actually, it did make perfect > > > (To this point, I'd say "Athyra" is my > > >favorite of the Taltos novels. > > That's nice to hear. Thanks. Generally, it my second Most Hated, after > > TECKLA. > >Why do you dislike TECKLA? *I* don't dislike TECKLA. I'm actually rather proud of how that one came out. It's the one that I hear the complaints about, though. From books at bofh.com Thu Jun 6 22:21:37 2002 From: books at bofh.com (books at bofh.com) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 22:21:37 -0700 (MST) Subject: Another Turn of Subject In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 06 Jun 2002 22:14:32 -0700" <5.1.0.14.0.20020606221316.00a42d80@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606205808.00a4cc50@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020606205808.00a4cc50@pop3.lvcm.com> <20020607044609.GI6354@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <01KIMKDHI75S0000A5@chud.net> >At 11:46 PM 6/6/2002 -0500, Matthew Hunter wrote: >>On Thu, Jun 06, 2002 at 09:00:04PM -0700, Steven Brust >> wrote: >> > At 10:16 PM 6/6/2002 -0400, Beldarrin at aol.com wrote: >> > > Actually, it did make perfect >> > > (To this point, I'd say "Athyra" is my >> > >favorite of the Taltos novels. >> > That's nice to hear. Thanks. Generally, it my second Most Hated, after >> > TECKLA. >> >>Why do you dislike TECKLA? >*I* don't dislike TECKLA. I'm actually rather proud of how that one came >out. It's the one that I hear the complaints about, though. The thing that always got me is that _Jhereg_ seemed more Yendi'ish that _Yendi_. I'm not a big _Athyra_, _Phoenix_ fan. But that means I've only read them ten times, not twenty and still re-read them occasionally as opposed to braving the library/second hand store stacks. I think it would be pretty hard to lose sleep over a condemnation like that. :) -Jot From FelixEisen at aol.com Fri Jun 7 05:34:47 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 08:34:47 EDT Subject: RPG Message-ID: <4f.1e8759f3.2a320267@aol.com> Starshadw at aol.com writes: > Sorry, but I have never liked MUSHes or MUDs. My apologies, Stacy, but this isn't what I'm saying. Any MUSH or MUD RPG is, at heart, a 'tabletop' RPG -- except that it's been 'dumbed down' so that the computer (a mere mathematical beast) can cope with most or the entire system. What I'm saying is that the RPG design that we created for HellMUSH would be easily 'expanded' to a tabletop version, or to a version that would be useable for your web-based RPG site. OTOH, if you want to design your own system from scratch, that's your perogative too... Knightmarshall Felix Surnamed Eisen, or "Iron Felix" Hand of Morr, The Order of Bones From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jun 7 06:04:25 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 09:04:25 -0400 Subject: Chinese Emperor Joke: The Sequel Message-ID: <4B4E00E0.10BD7C81.0296E7C9@aol.com> -groan- It's too early in the morning for stuff like this... Stacy From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jun 7 06:12:40 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 09:12:40 -0400 Subject: RPG Message-ID: <5156C742.73978D04.0296E7C9@aol.com> Ahhhhhh, I see what you're saying. And it's the very fact that the system has been, as you say, "dumped down" that makes me not like MUSH/MUD setups. Why, you ask? Because I don't do hack-n-slash. Meaning when I run a game, players who are actually role-playing will get far more experience than those just sitting on their duffs and rolling dice to kill things. Also, as a GM/DM, I will "fudge" rolls based on the role-playing going on. If a players really gets into a description of something he/she is trying, and I really like it, even if they botch the roll I may let them succeed anyway. Also, I take great care not to kill characters whose players make an effort to role-play. Yes, sometimes there is no avoiding it, and I'm more than willing to reward stupid behavior (on the part of the character, not the player) with death. But I don't want a character to die just because the dice went against him/her at the wrong time. Does any of that make sense? As far as creating an entirely new system, I'm not headed towards that (at least not at this moment). I'm thinking of going with a GURPS system simply because it's got a little more tweakability than 3e. However, given my thoughts on magic at midnight (which I will probably post and ask for ideas about later), it will be highly specialized and not simply use what GURPS has right now. Stacy In a message dated Fri, 7 Jun 2002 8:35:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, FelixEisen writes: > Any MUSH or MUD RPG is, at heart, a 'tabletop' RPG -- except that it's been > 'dumbed down' so that the computer (a mere mathematical beast) can cope with > most or the entire system. What I'm saying is that the RPG design that we > created for HellMUSH would be easily 'expanded' to a tabletop version, or to > a version that would be useable for your web-based RPG site. > > OTOH, if you want to design your own system from scratch, > that's your > perogative too... From ryan at fncinc.com Fri Jun 7 06:57:13 2002 From: ryan at fncinc.com (Ryan Cogan) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 08:57:13 -0500 Subject: [dragaera] Re: Athyra In-Reply-To: <140.f8f30fb.2a316fd0@aol.com> Message-ID: <086b01c20e2b$39c6fd00$57022b0c@fncinc.com> The preorder tool on half.com is good for this too. That way, you can set a price that you are willing to spend for a particular book and if the book shows up for that price or less, half.com automatically buys it for you. I wound up having to do that for Athyra. Wound up getting it for about 15 or so and didn't have to keep checking for it all the time. Ryan -----Original Message----- From: Beldarrin at aol.com [mailto:Beldarrin at aol.com] Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 9:09 PM To: Raellew at aol.com; dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: [dragaera] Re: Athyra Hmm... I kept looking for "Athyra" since I finished "Jhereg" and I saw it mostly for $40+. Lucky for me, while looking for Final Fantasy paraphernalia on e-bay, I got the brilliant idea of looking for "Athyra" on e-bay, too, and then got disgruntled and starting checking Amazon and Barnes & Noble online religiously (like four or five times a day). After about two weeks of doing this, I (well, okay, it was actually my husband - hey, even they're useful once in a while!) found a copy on Amazon for only $16 plus $3 shipping & handling. Deciding not to look a gift horse in the mouth, I purchased it right away. And so, the moral to this story is, just keep checking - on e-bay, Amazon, and Barnes & Noble... Also (and yes, this is a longshot), check out local used book stores. Some people don't know the treasures they have! ~ Stephles the Great From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Jun 7 07:29:01 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 10:29:01 -0400 Subject: Teckla and such Message-ID: I think that you get complaints about Teckla because after Jhereg and Ynedi, Teckla is such a change. Like one person said, it makes Vlad far more complex and interesting. I liked Teckla a lot. Don't let naysayers get you down. Teckla is a great book. Oh by the way, the Vlad books have great covers. You are so lucky to get such great covers. I am especially envious because my book, due out in September, is an Astonishing Purple. From meersan at mn.astound.net Fri Jun 7 07:39:28 2002 From: meersan at mn.astound.net (Melissa Fitzgerald) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 09:39:28 -0500 Subject: Another Turn of Subject In-Reply-To: <20020607044609.GI6354@infodancer.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606205808.00a4cc50@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020606205808.00a4cc50@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020607093928.007c1370@astound.net> I agree with Mr. Hunter. I'm new to the Vlad Taltos books, and I haven't read _Athyra_, but I think _Teckla_ is one of the strongest books in the series. (I read, and loved, _The Phoenix Guards_ when it came out, and that impelled me to get the omnibus versions when they were published.) One thing that has always bothered me about SF/F assassin books in general is the lack of character depth. I'm not going to name any names, but too often it feels like assassin characters are bland author surrogates, badasses without remorse. But unless the character is a primary sociopath--which Vlad clearly is not--he is going to experience some, um, emotional repercussions from his career choice. For me, _Teckla_ is fascinating because it's the first time Vlad starts to wake up and realize that what he's doing has the potential to destroy his life, and is destroying his relationship with Cawti. Of course, I like the straight up pre-_Teckla_ Vlad adventures, too. But a character that doesn't change is a pod person. And pod people are soulless and wrong. :) At 11:46 PM 6/6/02 -0500, Matthew Hunter wrote: >Why do you dislike TECKLA? I've always liked it; mainly because it is >the first book where Vlad shows himself as more than a wisecracking, badass >assassin with a racial inferiority complex. It's where I point people to >when starting them on the series, saying something along the lines of "Here >is where it starts to get interesting." From singram at videotron.ca Fri Jun 7 07:44:11 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 10:44:11 -0400 Subject: RPG References: <5156C742.73978D04.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <004701c20e31$c9866650$17ecca18@ingram> I don't really see how his 'simple' system will prevent you from fudging roles and rewarding XP based on roleplaying as well as hacking and slashing. > > Does any of that make sense? > Well, yeah, but it's not an adequate answer, you haven't even looked at his system yet. Why not just say that you want to use systems that you've had experience with, which is fine, since you seem to want to take lead in this anyway. From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jun 7 07:54:51 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 10:54:51 -0400 Subject: Another Turn of Subject Message-ID: <4320097D.5FA4355A.0296E7C9@aol.com> I think what drove me crazy while reading Teckla (and still does although I like the book) was Cawti's behaviour. Her "holier-than-thou" attitude made me want to strangle her. I'm all for soul-searching and for the evolution we see Vlad begin to go through. But Cawti's actions and words were simply horrendous and seemed out of line. If you supposedly love someone - then you don't treat them as if they are inferior. You help them by encouragin them, by talking things through with them, etc! I know that there are conversations between Vlad and Cawti that we readers don't get to see, but even so, I was appalled at her treatment of her husband. Stacy From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jun 7 08:19:25 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 11:19:25 -0400 Subject: RPG Message-ID: <0B23694A.28222DA3.0296E7C9@aol.com> The MUSH/MUD systems I've come across work, as he said, on a mathematical basis. Given that, I've not seen one yet that lets you "fudge/massage/call it what you want" when it comes to the dice rolls and whatnot. Either that, or they go the completely opposite way and are simply FFRP. You are right, though, in that I have not seen his specific MUSH. But if it works like the others, then I don't think it will work for what I've got brewing in my brain. And since some people seem to be getting touchy, let me say that this is no way says HellMUSH (or any MUSH/MUD for that matter) is inferior/bad/icky in any way. Just that I don't think a MUSH/MUD setup will work in this case. From Beldarrin at aol.com Fri Jun 7 08:22:01 2002 From: Beldarrin at aol.com (Beldarrin at aol.com) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 11:22:01 -0400 Subject: Teckla, Cawti, Book Covers, and Whatnot Message-ID: <77519E80.1D6559A1.0221815B@aol.com> I'd have to agree with what I've so far, pertaining to "Teckla." I rather enjoyed it myself, even though (and perhaps even because) it was so different from the winding, whirlwind excitement-adventure of "Jhereg" and "Yendi." It did, however, make me want to strangle Cawti, as well. Vlad's a nice guy and he doesn't deserve to be treated like Cawti treated him, just because he wasn't a born-again Teckla/Easterner sympathizer. Her evolution from assassin to horribly irritating pissed me off and I was actually happy when Vlad left South Adrilahnka (I think I spelled that wrong - it looks really weird) at the end of "Phoenix." I think the book covers are just wonderful, especially cute l'il Loiosh. One thing bothers me, though. Why does Vlad have such light hair on the covers, and no whiskers? It gets me kind of confused, but then, I confuse easily. And finally, we come to a question I doubt will (or can, maybe, at this point) be answered. What happened to Vlad in the two years between "Phoenix" and "Athyra?" How did his pinky get missing? (Oh, the suspense!) ~ Steph From meersan at mn.astound.net Fri Jun 7 08:44:33 2002 From: meersan at mn.astound.net (Melissa Fitzgerald) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 10:44:33 -0500 Subject: Teckla, Cawti, Book Covers, and Whatnot In-Reply-To: <77519E80.1D6559A1.0221815B@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020607104433.007c1ce0@astound.net> Ok, I can't agree with all the Cawti slamming. It's painfully obvious that in _Teckla_ we only hear Vlad's side of the story. Vlad feels irritated and maddened by Cawti's seemingly inexplicable behavior, so we do, too. I think, from what we learn in _Orca_, that Cawti's motivation becomes much more understandable. At any rate, she had a great deal of courage to confront Vlad and eventually leave him. Her spouse was a hired killer--it doesn't get much worse than that. At 11:22 AM 6/7/02 -0400, Beldarrin at aol.com wrote: > I'd have to agree with what I've so far, pertaining to "Teckla." I rather enjoyed it myself, even though (and perhaps even because) it was so different from the winding, whirlwind excitement-adventure of "Jhereg" and "Yendi." It did, however, make me want to strangle Cawti, as well. Vlad's a nice guy and he doesn't deserve to be treated like Cawti treated him, just because he wasn't a born-again Teckla/Easterner sympathizer. Her evolution from assassin to horribly irritating pissed me off and I was actually happy when Vlad left South Adrilahnka (I think I spelled that wrong - it looks really weird) at the end of "Phoenix." From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jun 7 08:58:57 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 08:58:57 -0700 Subject: Teckla, Cawti, Book Covers, and Whatnot In-Reply-To: <77519E80.1D6559A1.0221815B@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607085431.00a54e30@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:22 AM 6/7/2002 -0400, Beldarrin at aol.com wrote: > I think the book covers are just wonderful, especially cute l'il > Loiosh. One thing bothers me, though. Why does Vlad have such light > hair on the covers, and no whiskers? It gets me kind of confused, but > then, I confuse easily. As I've said before, I think the covers are wonderful, but neither Vlad nor Loiosh look in the least the way I envision them. There's no reason why they should, either. The point of the cover, in my opinion, is to grab the attention of the sort of person who would be inclined to like the book. There is no reason, in my opinion, for the picture on the cover to match the description inside--except emotionally. (In my own vision of Loiosh, he has two legs, is smaller, smoother, his head is more snakelike, and his wings more batlike). > And finally, we come to a question I doubt will (or can, maybe, at > this point) be answered. What happened to Vlad in the two years between > "Phoenix" and "Athyra?" How did his pinky get missing? (Oh, the suspense!) Oh come now, Steph. Vlad has explained how his pinky became missing. At least two or three different times. Just because the various explanations were mutually exclusive is no reason to doubt them. :-) From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Jun 7 09:10:11 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 11:10:11 -0500 Subject: Teckla, Cawti, Book Covers, and Whatnot In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20020607104433.007c1ce0@astound.net> References: <77519E80.1D6559A1.0221815B@aol.com> <3.0.5.32.20020607104433.007c1ce0@astound.net> Message-ID: <20020607161011.GC6357@infodancer.org> On Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 10:44:33AM -0500, Melissa Fitzgerald wrote: > Ok, I can't agree with all the Cawti slamming. It's painfully obvious that > in _Teckla_ we only hear Vlad's side of the story. Vlad feels irritated > and maddened by Cawti's seemingly inexplicable behavior, so we do, too. I > think, from what we learn in _Orca_, that Cawti's motivation becomes much > more understandable. This is true, but the way Cawti was treating Vlad still seemed very irritating, as if she didn't want things to work out and wasn't willing to explain herself to Vlad in hopes of helping them work out. This may, in fact, actually BE the case, though, which somewhat reduces the annoyance factor. However you swing it, Vlad was not the only one making mistakes in Teckla. > At any rate, she had a great deal of courage to > confront Vlad and eventually leave him. Her spouse was a hired killer--it > doesn't get much worse than that. This only gets you points when YOU aren't also a hired killer. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20020607/46a334af/attachment.pgp From frank at exit.com Fri Jun 7 09:12:58 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 09:12:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another Turn of Subject In-Reply-To: <4320097D.5FA4355A.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <200206071612.g57GCw5p096278@realtime.exit.com> Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > I think what drove me crazy while reading Teckla (and still does although I like the book) was Cawti's behaviour. Her "holier-than-thou" attitude made me want to strangle her. I'm all for soul-searching and for the evolution we see Vlad begin to go through. But Cawti's actions and words were simply horrendous and seemed out of line. If you supposedly love someone - then you don't treat them as if they are inferior. You help them by encouragin them, by talking things through with them, etc! I know that there are conversations between Vlad and Cawti that we readers don't get to see, but even so, I was appalled at her treatment of her husband. As for me, having lived through a couple of crashed-and-burned marriages, it sounds absolutely true. Yeah, Cawti's behavior was appalling but it's pretty accurate, too. People get focused on the insides of their own heads and forget that there's another person out there. I've been on both sides of that equation, sigh. There were a couple of points in Teckla where Vlad recognized that they were slipping into acrimony and yet couldn't help but be sucked in; these were somewhat painful for me to read, since the sensation was so familiar. I could go on and on about this (heh, don't get me started :-), but suffice to say that Steve got it right. (Steve, do you suspect that you might have picked up some vibrations from your life during this point? Feel free to not answer...) -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Jun 7 09:08:38 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 12:08:38 -0400 Subject: Teckla, Cawti, Book Covers, and Whatnot In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607085431.00a54e30@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: I bet he lost it while in the East. Just a wild, uneducated guess :-) On Friday, June 7, 2002, at 11:58 AM, Steven Brust wrote: > At 11:22 AM 6/7/2002 -0400, Beldarrin at aol.com wrote: > >> I think the book covers are just wonderful, especially cute l'il >> Loiosh. One thing bothers me, though. Why does Vlad have such light >> hair on the covers, and no whiskers? It gets me kind of confused, but >> then, I confuse easily. > > As I've said before, I think the covers are wonderful, but neither Vlad > nor Loiosh look in the least the way I envision them. There's no > reason why they should, either. The point of the cover, in my opinion, > is to grab the attention of the sort of person who would be inclined to > like the book. There is no reason, in my opinion, for the picture on > the cover to match the description inside--except emotionally. > > (In my own vision of Loiosh, he has two legs, is smaller, smoother, his > head is more snakelike, and his wings more batlike). > >> And finally, we come to a question I doubt will (or can, maybe, >> at this point) be answered. What happened to Vlad in the two years >> between "Phoenix" and "Athyra?" How did his pinky get missing? (Oh, >> the suspense!) > > Oh come now, Steph. Vlad has explained how his pinky became missing. > At least two or three different times. Just because the various > explanations were mutually exclusive is no reason to doubt them. :-) > > > -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From rachael at daedala.net Fri Jun 7 09:27:46 2002 From: rachael at daedala.net (Rachael Lininger) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 11:27:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Teckla, Cawti, Book Covers, and Whatnot In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607085431.00a54e30@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: On Jun 7, Steven Brust said: >As I've said before, I think the covers are wonderful, but neither Vlad nor >Loiosh look in the least the way I envision them. There's no reason why >they should, either. The point of the cover, in my opinion, is to grab the >attention of the sort of person who would be inclined to like the >book. There is no reason, in my opinion, for the picture on the cover to >match the description inside--except emotionally. > >(In my own vision of Loiosh, he has two legs, is smaller, smoother, his >head is more snakelike, and his wings more batlike). I avoided your books for years because the covers looked like they were for something I wouldn't like. I was imagining a poorly-written series of self-congratulatory badass assassin adventure books. Yes, I'm in the "gets _interesting_ with TECKLA" camp. Rachael -- Rachael From the Dilbert Newsletter: Lininger "You should talk to her. rachael@ She is a minefield of information." daedala.net From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jun 7 09:18:44 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 12:18:44 -0400 Subject: Ahhhhh.....Jhereg Message-ID: <22DF23F8.79BA8A82.0296E7C9@aol.com> are then more akin to what we think of as wyverns. Interesting. I can't remember if it was specifically mentioned in any of the descriptions, but are dragons six-limbed on Dragaera (four "walking" limbs, plus two wings?) or four-limbed like jhereg? And since you've brought it up, just how big -are- typical (not the giant ones) jhereg? Although I'd be curious just how big the giant ones are as well.... Stacy From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Jun 7 09:07:12 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 12:07:12 -0400 Subject: Teckla, etc Message-ID: I think part of Cawti's behavior had to do with her marriage falling apart. Spouses do odd things during divorce (been there, done that) so I can understand, to a point. What was frustrating was that she was in with a group whose rebellion was doomed to failure, she had to know that, yet she didn't try to stop them. The only RPG I know is GURPS but I haven't played any RPG in years (work does that to you). -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jun 7 09:21:32 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 12:21:32 -0400 Subject: RPG Draft Structure Message-ID: <489ABFBC.293DF4F6.0296E7C9@aol.com> Here are the thoughts going on in my head for this..... First off, everything will be accessed via a website. If wanted, a domain name could be purchased for that ? namesecure.com provides free forwarding so even if the site started out on Geocities or such, the domain name would forward to it. There would be general access (meaning anyone and everyone) to the homepage and several intro pages. Those wanting to go further (participate) would have to fill out a registration form. Why? Because anyone who wants to role-play has to agree to certain things which will protect Mr. Brust?s ownership/copyright of Dragaera and all things Dragaeran. That was the stipulation for being able to do this at all. This means than anything we create in connection to this RPG does not belong to us, but belongs to him. The registration form allows us to keep track of this and ensure that people have read said agreement. After registering, the person receives and username and password which lets them into the rest of the site. Restricted access would be to maps, PC pages, NPC pages, game system info, etc. To try and please as many as possible as well as provide multiple RPing experiences, I envision a ?hybrid? - There would be a message board, for: Message-based games Character Journals Campaign Journals FFRP between characters OOC talk There would be a chat component as well: Could be done through mIRC which allows for dice rolling Could be done via HellMUSH (I?m certainly not discounting any chat-based means right now. We could definitely test it and see how we like it) The chat component would allow for both ?regular? (aka structured campaigns/games using the game mechanics) and FFRP. The FFRP would not gain characters experience; rather, it would simply be for personal enjoyment There could easily be multiple GMs running multiple games, plus all of the FFRPing. How is this sounding to everyone? Comments, criticisms, thoughts, ideas, objections, etc? From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jun 7 09:18:26 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 12:18:26 -0400 Subject: Cawti discussion Message-ID: <4C8B0A23.225A2CD1.0296E7C9@aol.com> I agree that we are only seeing Vlad's side. However, your last comment struck a chord with me. "Her spouse was a hired killer - it doesn't get much worse than that." Cawti was also a hired killer - and a damn good one, by everything we've read/seen. It's not as if she married Vlad not knowing what he did for a living; heck, at the time they married, they were both in the same business. This is why her attitude and actions bothered me so much. If she hadn't been an assassin at one time, if she hadn't known what Vlad did at the time they got married.....then I might be a bit more understanding. Stacy In a message dated Fri, 7 Jun 2002 11:41:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, meersan at mn.astound.net writes: > Ok, I can't agree with all the Cawti slamming. It's painfully obvious that > in _Teckla_ we only hear Vlad's side of the story. Vlad feels irritated > and maddened by Cawti's seemingly inexplicable behavior, so we do, too. I > think, from what we learn in _Orca_, that Cawti's motivation becomes much > more understandable. At any rate, she had a great deal of courage to > confront Vlad and eventually leave him. Her spouse was a > hired killer--it > doesn't get much worse than that. From dan-tain_ishanti at attbi.com Fri Jun 7 09:23:14 2002 From: dan-tain_ishanti at attbi.com (Brad Crawford) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 09:23:14 -0700 Subject: RPG Draft Structure References: <489ABFBC.293DF4F6.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <005401c20e3f$a02b0e60$8fd47e18@we.client2.attbi.com> While I have never RPGed in any format except P&P this sounds pretty cool. One question...FFRP? Brad ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 9:21 AM Subject: RPG Draft Structure > Here are the thoughts going on in my head for this..... > > First off, everything will be accessed via a website. If wanted, a domain name could be purchased for that ? namesecure.com provides free forwarding so even if the site started out on Geocities or such, the domain name would forward to it. > > There would be general access (meaning anyone and everyone) to the homepage and several intro pages. Those wanting to go further (participate) would have to fill out a registration form. Why? Because anyone who wants to role-play has to agree to certain things which will protect Mr. Brust?s ownership/copyright of Dragaera and all things Dragaeran. That was the stipulation for being able to do this at all. This means than anything we create in connection to this RPG does not belong to us, but belongs to him. The registration form allows us to keep track of this and ensure that people have read said agreement. After registering, the person receives and username and password which lets them into the rest of the site. > > Restricted access would be to maps, PC pages, NPC pages, game system info, etc. To try and please as many as possible as well as provide multiple RPing experiences, I envision a ?hybrid? - > > There would be a message board, for: > > Message-based games > Character Journals > Campaign Journals > FFRP between characters > OOC talk > > There would be a chat component as well: > > Could be done through mIRC which allows for dice rolling > Could be done via HellMUSH (I?m certainly not discounting any chat-based means right now. We could definitely test it and see how we like it) > > The chat component would allow for both ?regular? (aka structured campaigns/games using the game mechanics) and FFRP. > > The FFRP would not gain characters experience; rather, it would simply be for personal enjoyment > > There could easily be multiple GMs running multiple games, plus all of the FFRPing. How is this sounding to everyone? Comments, criticisms, thoughts, ideas, objections, etc? From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Jun 7 09:24:04 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 12:24:04 -0400 Subject: RPG Draft Structure In-Reply-To: <489ABFBC.293DF4F6.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: It sounds amazingly ambitious but I think it's a great idea. I especially like the registration idea as tool to protect Steven's rights. As a published writer myself, that would be very important to me. On Friday, June 7, 2002, at 12:21 PM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > Here are the thoughts going on in my head for this..... > > First off, everything will be accessed via a website. If wanted, a > domain name could be purchased for that ? namesecure.com provides free > forwarding so even if the site started out on Geocities or such, the > domain name would forward to it. > > There would be general access (meaning anyone and everyone) to the > homepage and several intro pages. Those wanting to go further > (participate) would have to fill out a registration form. Why? > Because anyone who wants to role-play has to agree to certain things > which will protect Mr. Brust?s ownership/copyright of Dragaera and all > things Dragaeran. That was the stipulation for being able to do this > at all. This means than anything we create in connection to this RPG > does not belong to us, but belongs to him. The registration form > allows us to keep track of this and ensure that people have read said > agreement. After registering, the person receives and username and > password which lets them into the rest of the site. > > Restricted access would be to maps, PC pages, NPC pages, game system > info, etc. To try and please as many as possible as well as provide > multiple RPing experiences, I envision a ?hybrid? - > > There would be a message board, for: > > Message-based games > Character Journals > Campaign Journals > FFRP between characters > OOC talk > > There would be a chat component as well: > > Could be done through mIRC which allows for dice rolling > Could be done via HellMUSH (I?m certainly not discounting any > chat-based means right now. We could definitely test it and see how we > like it) > > The chat component would allow for both ?regular? (aka structured > campaigns/games using the game mechanics) and FFRP. > > The FFRP would not gain characters experience; rather, it would simply > be for personal enjoyment > > There could easily be multiple GMs running multiple games, plus all of > the FFRPing. How is this sounding to everyone? Comments, criticisms, > thoughts, ideas, objections, etc? > > -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Jun 7 09:26:25 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 12:26:25 -0400 Subject: Cawti discussion In-Reply-To: <4C8B0A23.225A2CD1.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <50169696-7A33-11D6-845E-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Yes, I agree. It's one thing to not know but it's a whole 'nother thing to know and still bash your spouse for it. It was my impression that even though Vlad kills Dragaerans, he doesn't have a deep hatred of the race. On Friday, June 7, 2002, at 12:18 PM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > I agree that we are only seeing Vlad's side. However, your last > comment struck a chord with me. > > "Her spouse was a hired killer - it doesn't get much worse than that." > > Cawti was also a hired killer - and a damn good one, by everything > we've read/seen. It's not as if she married Vlad not knowing what he > did for a living; heck, at the time they married, they were both in the > same business. > > This is why her attitude and actions bothered me so much. If she > hadn't been an assassin at one time, if she hadn't known what Vlad did > at the time they got married.....then I might be a bit more > understanding. > > Stacy > > > In a message dated Fri, 7 Jun 2002 11:41:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > meersan at mn.astound.net writes: > >> Ok, I can't agree with all the Cawti slamming. It's painfully obvious >> that >> in _Teckla_ we only hear Vlad's side of the story. Vlad feels >> irritated >> and maddened by Cawti's seemingly inexplicable behavior, so we do, >> too. I >> think, from what we learn in _Orca_, that Cawti's motivation becomes >> much >> more understandable. At any rate, she had a great deal of courage to >> confront Vlad and eventually leave him. Her spouse was a >> hired killer--it >> doesn't get much worse than that. > > > -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jun 7 09:33:57 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 12:33:57 -0400 Subject: "The time has come, the Walrus said Message-ID: <28500956.1EFD1ABF.0296E7C9@aol.com> to talk of other things." Specifically, Dragaeran magic. By this, I mean the Dragaeran world magic (is that the ?name? of the world?) in general and not Dragaeran sorcery specifically (although we?ll get to that). As I see it, we have: Eastern Witchcraft Dragaeran Sorcery We might also have: Serioli Enchantment (aka binding spells into inanimate objects) Psionics I?m not sure about the latter two. Are they merely sub-systems within the two above, or separate entities? Meaning, could they exist without one of the two former? We?ve see witches use psionics, and sorcerers/wizards use psionics. Could someone who is neither use psionics? (Jhereg do it, so perhaps all creatures on Dragaera can do it?) And what about enchantments? I?m guessing that the Serioli were making enchanted items and Morganti blades before the existence of the Orb (and sorcery) but perhaps that is incorrect? And Vlad also mentions using a ?generic? enchanted blade in his witchcraft spells ? is that created by the Serioli (I doubt it) or by someone else (in which case, who ? sorcerer or witch?) Stacy From frank at exit.com Fri Jun 7 09:36:01 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 09:36:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cawti discussion In-Reply-To: <50169696-7A33-11D6-845E-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <200206071636.g57Ga1IB000129@realtime.exit.com> Chris Turkel wrote: > Yes, I agree. It's one thing to not know but it's a whole 'nother thing > to know and still bash your spouse for it. It was my impression that > even though Vlad kills Dragaerans, he doesn't have a deep hatred of the > race. Actually, he does, at least at some level. Or at least that's how he rationalize(s,d) it. The fact that he excludes certain Dragaerans from that hatred, of course, just makes things more interesting... :-) (Chris didn't write this bit:) > > Cawti was also a hired killer - and a damn good one, by everything > > we've read/seen. It's not as if she married Vlad not knowing what he > > did for a living; heck, at the time they married, they were both in the > > same business. Do you remember how they met? She killed him. Talk about starting a relationship off with a bang. :-) -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From frank at exit.com Fri Jun 7 09:37:00 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 09:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "The time has come, the Walrus said In-Reply-To: <28500956.1EFD1ABF.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <200206071637.g57Gb0vq000329@realtime.exit.com> Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > to talk of other things." > > Specifically, Dragaeran magic. By this, I mean the Dragaeran world magic (is that the ???name??? of the world?) in general and not Dragaeran sorcery specifically (although we???ll get to that). > > As I see it, we have: > > Eastern Witchcraft > Dragaeran Sorcery Read _Issola_. Then we'll talk. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Jun 7 09:38:24 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 12:38:24 -0400 Subject: "The time has come, the Walrus said In-Reply-To: <28500956.1EFD1ABF.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: I think psionics and Sorcery are the same. I could be wrong but based on all the evidence I've seen I think that this is so. The Serioli are the original inhabitants of the world so their magic is probably unlike the other two varieties. On Friday, June 7, 2002, at 12:33 PM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > to talk of other things." > > Specifically, Dragaeran magic. By this, I mean the Dragaeran world > magic (is that the ?name? of the world?) in general and not Dragaeran > sorcery specifically (although we?ll get to that). > > As I see it, we have: > > Eastern Witchcraft > Dragaeran Sorcery > > We might also have: > > Serioli Enchantment (aka binding spells into inanimate objects) > Psionics > > I?m not sure about the latter two. Are they merely sub-systems within > the two above, or separate entities? Meaning, could they exist without > one of the two former? > > We?ve see witches use psionics, and sorcerers/wizards use psionics. > Could someone who is neither use psionics? (Jhereg do it, so perhaps > all creatures on Dragaera can do it?) > > And what about enchantments? I?m guessing that the Serioli were making > enchanted items and Morganti blades before the existence of the Orb > (and sorcery) but perhaps that is incorrect? And Vlad also mentions > using a ?generic? enchanted blade in his witchcraft spells ? is that > created by the Serioli (I doubt it) or by someone else (in which case, > who ? sorcerer or witch?) > > Stacy > > -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From lisa at spindot.com Fri Jun 7 09:38:13 2002 From: lisa at spindot.com (Lisa Grant Coffin) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 12:38:13 -0400 Subject: Cawti discussion References: <4C8B0A23.225A2CD1.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <003a01c20e41$ba2894c0$1401a8c0@Spencer> Regarding Cawti in Teckla, here's my Two Cents: I think we are all being obviously loyal to Vlad. We feel great affection for him and react to his pain. I also think that the disintegration of their relationship contains many of the regular disintegration-in-marraige benchmarks, such as: growing apart, becoming passionate about something the other doesn't get, painful silences where noone tells the truth or their version of it; etc. I also think i disagree with the person who said that the rebellion was 'doomed to failure.' I don't see it that way, myself. Perhaps *that* particular episode would result in smallish baby steps, or none at all; but most rebellions start this way. Society usually doesn't change in a flash, or by one action; but by a building up of many little things resulting in a bang of some type; or perhaps just a fundamental shift in the way people think, resulting in change (like Cawti). Remember that at the end of Teckla, Vlad himself 'owns' the territory of East Adrilankha. That's something of an ironic victory for Easterners too, is it not? And, we all must love irony, because we're here. ;) Lisa Grant Coffin From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jun 7 09:40:39 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 12:40:39 -0400 Subject: Cawti discussion Message-ID: <3050F4EB.3E654730.0296E7C9@aol.com> There's something to be said for that. I think there were a number of reasons the two were drawn to each other: 1. They were of the same race, living in a city/empire of another race 2. They were both assassins so they knew they didn't have to hide that fact from the other 3. They were both Jhereg. I do think you're right in that starting a relationship out by having one person try to kill the other probably says something about its future. Stacy In a message dated Fri, 7 Jun 2002 12:32:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, anthony at netdocuments.com writes: > The relationship between Vlad and Cawti started by her > killing him. How > healthy of a relationship is that? > > "So, how did you two meet?" > > "She stabbed me to death." > > It wasn't meant to last. From anthony at netdocuments.com Fri Jun 7 09:39:58 2002 From: anthony at netdocuments.com (Anthony Tedjamulia) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 10:39:58 -0600 Subject: Psionics/Sorcery Message-ID: You forgot about pre-empire sorcery. . . though that may be considered a cousin to Dragaeran Sorcery. My understanding (from the lastest, Issola) is that psionics is mind-to-mind mental powers being manipulated, sorcery is mind-to-orb. . . And that the psionic connection between Vlad and Loiosh is either nothing like psionics at all, or is a very strong conglomeration of psionics and something else entirely. As I see it, witchcraft is mind-to-matter instead of sorcery, which is mind-to-orb-to-chaos-to-matter---which is ironically faster than simple mind-to-matter manipulation. Am I making any sense? -----Original Message----- From: Starshadw at aol.com [mailto:Starshadw at aol.com] Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 10:34 AM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: "The time has come, the Walrus said to talk of other things." Specifically, Dragaeran magic. By this, I mean the Dragaeran world magic (is that the "name" of the world?) in general and not Dragaeran sorcery specifically (although we'll get to that). As I see it, we have: Eastern Witchcraft Dragaeran Sorcery We might also have: Serioli Enchantment (aka binding spells into inanimate objects) Psionics I'm not sure about the latter two. Are they merely sub-systems within the two above, or separate entities? Meaning, could they exist without one of the two former? We've see witches use psionics, and sorcerers/wizards use psionics. Could someone who is neither use psionics? (Jhereg do it, so perhaps all creatures on Dragaera can do it?) And what about enchantments? I'm guessing that the Serioli were making enchanted items and Morganti blades before the existence of the Orb (and sorcery) but perhaps that is incorrect? And Vlad also mentions using a "generic" enchanted blade in his witchcraft spells - is that created by the Serioli (I doubt it) or by someone else (in which case, who - sorcerer or witch?) Stacy From lisa at spindot.com Fri Jun 7 09:45:19 2002 From: lisa at spindot.com (Lisa Grant Coffin) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 12:45:19 -0400 Subject: Cawti discussion fixed References: <4C8B0A23.225A2CD1.0296E7C9@aol.com> <003a01c20e41$ba2894c0$1401a8c0@Spencer> Message-ID: <006401c20e42$b5e72510$1401a8c0@Spencer> Of course I meant South Adrilankha, before anyone points it out. Dreary day, need more coffee. lgc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lisa Grant Coffin" To: Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 12:38 PM Subject: Re: Cawti discussion > > Regarding Cawti in Teckla, here's my Two Cents: > > I think we are all being obviously loyal to Vlad. We feel great affection for him and react to his pain. > > I also think that the disintegration of their relationship contains many of the regular disintegration-in-marraige benchmarks, such as: growing apart, becoming passionate about something the other doesn't get, painful silences where noone tells the truth or their version of it; etc. > > I also think i disagree with the person who said that the rebellion was 'doomed to failure.' I don't see it that way, myself. Perhaps *that* particular episode would result in smallish baby steps, or none at all; but most rebellions start this way. Society usually doesn't change in a flash, or by one action; but by a building up of many little things resulting in a bang of some type; or perhaps just a fundamental shift in the way people think, resulting in change (like Cawti). > > Remember that at the end of Teckla, Vlad himself 'owns' the territory of East Adrilankha. That's something of an ironic victory for Easterners too, is it not? > And, we all must love irony, because we're here. ;) > > Lisa Grant Coffin > > From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jun 7 09:49:28 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 12:49:28 -0400 Subject: Psionics/Sorcery Message-ID: <0415088A.1BA008AC.0296E7C9@aol.com> You're making perfect sense. :) In Jhereg, though, we see that there is a psionic connection between vlad and Cawti and Loiosh and Daymar as a foursome as they begin to perform the spell that will create the "impression crystal" for Daymar to use to locate Mellar. In fact, there is a sentence which states that the fact that multiple witches can join in on a single spell is one advantage it has over sorcery. I find it intriguing that Daymar could join in, which is one reason why I do lean towards psionics being a separate entity from sorcery. Daymar is not a witch, so he could not join in that way, but he is a tremendous psionicist and that must have allowed him to bull his way in. We know that at least two of the Jenoine manipulated animal species deal in psionics: jhereg and dragons. Perhaps there are more species that do as well, to some extent? And of course, there are the Easterners and Dragaerans, both of whom are capable of psionic telepathy at the least. Stacy In a message dated Fri, 7 Jun 2002 12:40:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, anthony at netdocuments.com writes: > You forgot about pre-empire sorcery. . . though that may be considered a > cousin to Dragaeran Sorcery. > > My understanding (from the lastest, Issola) is that psionics is mind-to-mind > mental powers being manipulated, sorcery is mind-to-orb. . . And that the > psionic connection between Vlad and Loiosh is either nothing like psionics > at all, or is a very strong conglomeration of psionics and something else > entirely. > > As I see it, witchcraft is mind-to-matter instead of sorcery, which is > mind-to-orb-to-chaos-to-matter---which is ironically faster > than simple > mind-to-matter manipulation. > > Am I making any sense? From vidroth at hotmail.com Fri Jun 7 09:50:06 2002 From: vidroth at hotmail.com (Chris Bisanar) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 11:50:06 -0500 Subject: "The time has come, the Walrus said References: <28500956.1EFD1ABF.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 11:33 AM Subject: "The time has come, the Walrus said > to talk of other things." > > Specifically, Dragaeran magic. By this, I mean the Dragaeran world magic (is that the ?name? of the world?) in general and not Dragaeran sorcery specifically (although we?ll get to that). > > As I see it, we have: > > Eastern Witchcraft > Dragaeran Sorcery > > We might also have: > > Serioli Enchantment (aka binding spells into inanimate objects) > Psionics > Reading Issola is a must, to discuss this... my understanding is, the discrete types of magic that have been seen are: Elder Sorcery Dragaeran Sorcery Serioli magic Jenoine magic Necromancy Witchcraft Psionics Elder Sorcery is very clear, it's the ability to directly manipulate the power of Amorphia. Incredibly dangerous, incredibly difficult, and you have to have some Amorphia to work with. With enough knowledge and control, *anything* can be done with Elder Sorcery. Dragaeran Sorcery comes from the Orb. The function of the Orb is to draw unlimited amounts of power from the Sea of Amorphia and dish it out to whomever wants it, in a safe, controlled manner. Though very powerful, it's pretty much limited to creating physical effects. Serioli magic remains unexplained. Clearly a lot of it involves binding spirit and intelligence into inanimate objects, but who knows what else they can do? Jenoine magic is also unexplained. It's clear they have a great deal of power of their own, possibly in a way similar but much stronger than the Serioli. But since they're desperate to get their hands on Amorphia, it's obvious their native powers are less than Elder Sorcery at its best. Necromancy is pretty hard to understand, but may be similar in a way to Serioli/Jenoine magic, in that it deals with spirit and life essences. We need more time with the Necromancer to be sure. Witchcraft is thoroughly explained, and is unrelated (pretty much) to all of the above, but closely related to Psionics. It's the idea that the intelligent will, if brought into alignment with reality, can be used to then subtly change that reality. In that sense, it can do things none of the other magics can do, but its "raw power" caps out with the power of your will. Through time-honored methods, rituals and ceremonies have been found that help align your will with reality, and that's why you see all the odd spells and tools necessary in Witchcraft. Psionics, while primarily used for communication, works along the same lines as Witchcraft, and is instrumental in using your will, but lacks the ceremony and ritual that Witchcraft has. As such, the power is there to do a lot of the things a Witch can do, but the whole "aligning your will with reality" thing is generally not there. Only really, really gifted psionicists like Daymar can pull off spell-like effects with pure Psionics. Steve, what did I miss, or are you snickering already at how wrong I've got it all? :) From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Jun 7 09:39:41 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 12:39:41 -0400 Subject: Cawti discussion In-Reply-To: <200206071636.g57Ga1IB000129@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <2A911338-7A35-11D6-A1C2-00039386187A@adelphia.net> That's true. Maybe in fact he wants he wants to hate Dragaerans but fins himself liking some of them. Sometimes racial relationships are like that. On Friday, June 7, 2002, at 12:36 PM, Frank Mayhar wrote: > Chris Turkel wrote: >> Yes, I agree. It's one thing to not know but it's a whole 'nother thing >> to know and still bash your spouse for it. It was my impression that >> even though Vlad kills Dragaerans, he doesn't have a deep hatred of the >> race. > > Actually, he does, at least at some level. Or at least that's how he > rationalize(s,d) it. The fact that he excludes certain Dragaerans from > that hatred, of course, just makes things more interesting... :-) > > (Chris didn't write this bit:) >>> Cawti was also a hired killer - and a damn good one, by everything >>> we've read/seen. It's not as if she married Vlad not knowing what he >>> did for a living; heck, at the time they married, they were both in >>> the >>> same business. > > Do you remember how they met? She killed him. Talk about starting a > relationship off with a bang. :-) > -- > Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ > Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ > > -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From rsuitor at cjwrfs.net Fri Jun 7 09:58:18 2002 From: rsuitor at cjwrfs.net (Richard Suitor) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 12:58:18 -0400 Subject: Cawti discussion In-Reply-To: <4C8B0A23.225A2CD1.0296E7C9@aol.com> References: <4C8B0A23.225A2CD1.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <41p1gukiv5p9fpfn5i04hk91bg28a6qafk@4ax.com> On Fri, 07 Jun 2002 12:18:26 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >Cawti was also a hired killer - and a damn good one, by everything we've read/seen. It's not as if she married Vlad not knowing what he did for a living; heck, at the time they married, they were both in the same business. > >This is why her attitude and actions bothered me so much. If she hadn't been an assassin at one time, if she hadn't known what Vlad did at the time they got married.....then I might be a bit more understanding. She's Been Reformed? Seen the Light? As a result of her association with her new buddies. Which perhaps she became more receptive to as a result of positive changes due to her marriage. Anyway, she's a Recent Convert. Tough to live with. Vlad has problems because he is trying to be the same old guy and subconsciously he is going in the same direction Cawti is and is having trouble acknowledging it or giving in to it. Richard From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jun 7 10:01:17 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 13:01:17 -0400 Subject: Cawti discussion Message-ID: <37221E7A.629E7313.0296E7C9@aol.com> And lets not forget that he used to be one as well. :) That always complicates the issue. In fact, I tend to think that the reason Vlad "hates" Dragaerans stems from his Dolimar past-life "impressions" that are permanently stamped into his soul. One also has to wonder if it is the fact that his soul is inherently Dragaeran that was the real reason behind his being able to go to the Paths and return. Stacy In a message dated Fri, 7 Jun 2002 12:55:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, zizban at adelphia.net writes: > That's true. Maybe in fact he wants he wants to hate Dragaerans but fins > himself liking some of them. Sometimes racial relationships > are like > that. From mss2 at attbi.com Fri Jun 7 10:14:49 2002 From: mss2 at attbi.com (Michael S. Schiffer) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 12:14:49 -0500 Subject: Teckla, etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607113753.02ea9198@mail.attbi.com> At 12:07 PM 6/7/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: >I think part of Cawti's behavior had to do with her marriage falling >apart. Spouses do odd things during divorce (been there, done that) so I >can understand, to a point. What was frustrating was that she was in with >a group whose rebellion was doomed to failure, she had to know that, yet >she didn't try to stop them. This ties in with a lot of the problem I had with her change in Teckla. Cawti's having a political or social epiphany is perfectly in character (she was expressing more open concern for the plight of Easterners than Vlad as early as _Yendi_.) It wasn't in character for her IQ to apparently drop about fifty points. The Cawti of the earlier books was smart and aware of the world she lived in (as she could hardly help being, given the situation surrounding her partner and best friend). The Cawti of Teckla comes across as stubbornly refusing to acknowledge basic facts about her world that she's known since she was a child. It's one thing to take up a quixotic quest against impossible odds. It's another to act as if those odds don't exist. Half her conversations with Vlad come across as her ignoring (or rather, willfully choosing to ignore) the physical reality of the Cycle and the raw power at the disposal of the Empire and the noble Houses, not to mention her own personal experience with Imperial politics (or at least with people who are involved in Imperial politics). In any case, the issue of realism is, to some extent, a secondary one for me. Even if it could be shown that some real figure was a one-to-one match with Cawti's progression in her political opinions and her personal life, what it comes down to is this: I liked reading about Cawti before _Teckla_. I'm just as happy that she's faded mostly to the background now. That's not a matter of wanting her to stay as she was-- Vlad's changed quite a bit, and I still like reading about him. But Cawti's become such a prickly, intolerant, and unpleasant person (even talking to Kiera in _Orca_, she was cordial, but not warm) that I just find that the scenes with her leave me cold. Mike From books at bofh.com Fri Jun 7 10:13:23 2002 From: books at bofh.com (books at bofh.com) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 10:13:23 -0700 (MST) Subject: Cawti discussion In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 07 Jun 2002 12:39:41 -0400" <2A911338-7A35-11D6-A1C2-00039386187A@adelphia.net> References: <200206071636.g57Ga1IB000129@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <01KIN9C3IYA60000A5@chud.net> >That's true. Maybe in fact he wants he wants to hate Dragaerans but fins >himself liking some of them. Sometimes racial relationships are like >that. I think we have to face it that Vlad is a bigot. My "real world" definition of a bigot is someone who says "I dislike/hate [insert group here], but some of my best friends are [member of group]". Vlad himself admits this to Kiera in _Orca_, when he says something like, "Normally when I work with a people, I grow to like them, but with Orca, I just hate them all". He also says [in some book that is escaping me right now] something to the affect of, "Now I can get back to hatings Dragaerans in general, and liking them as individuals." I think the first shows that, as is often the case, knowledge/education of intelligent individuals is often a wonderful cure. The second shows the internal fortitude to recognize one's weaknesses. All, of course, IMHO. -Jot >On Friday, June 7, 2002, at 12:36 PM, Frank Mayhar wrote: >> Chris Turkel wrote: >>> Yes, I agree. It's one thing to not know but it's a whole 'nother thing >>> to know and still bash your spouse for it. It was my impression that >>> even though Vlad kills Dragaerans, he doesn't have a deep hatred of the >>> race. >> >> Actually, he does, at least at some level. Or at least that's how he >> rationalize(s,d) it. The fact that he excludes certain Dragaerans from >> that hatred, of course, just makes things more interesting... :-) >> >> (Chris didn't write this bit:) >>>> Cawti was also a hired killer - and a damn good one, by everything >>>> we've read/seen. It's not as if she married Vlad not knowing what he >>>> did for a living; heck, at the time they married, they were both in >>>> the >>>> same business. >> >> Do you remember how they met? She killed him. Talk about starting a >> relationship off with a bang. :-) >> -- >> Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ >> Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ >> >> >-------- >Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! >http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From anthony at netdocuments.com Fri Jun 7 10:21:01 2002 From: anthony at netdocuments.com (Anthony Tedjamulia) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 11:21:01 -0600 Subject: Cawti discussion Message-ID: Aleira (sp?) said that the souls of Easterners and Dragaerans were identical in essence. -----Original Message----- From: Starshadw at aol.com [mailto:Starshadw at aol.com] Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 11:01 AM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Cawti discussion And lets not forget that he used to be one as well. :) That always complicates the issue. In fact, I tend to think that the reason Vlad "hates" Dragaerans stems from his Dolimar past-life "impressions" that are permanently stamped into his soul. One also has to wonder if it is the fact that his soul is inherently Dragaeran that was the real reason behind his being able to go to the Paths and return. Stacy In a message dated Fri, 7 Jun 2002 12:55:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, zizban at adelphia.net writes: > That's true. Maybe in fact he wants he wants to hate Dragaerans but fins > himself liking some of them. Sometimes racial relationships > are like > that. From mporter at rogers.com Fri Jun 7 10:39:18 2002 From: mporter at rogers.com (Mark Porter) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 13:39:18 -0400 Subject: "The time has come, the Walrus said References: Message-ID: <003c01c20e4a$40832320$59a97218@slnt.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> >From what I've been reading, Psionics is something a bit different. Vlad explains CONSTANTLY that Sorcery, which Dragaeran's most prominently use, comes from the Orb. Each citizens has a link to the Orb, which is in turn linked to the Great Sea of Amorphia/Chaos, and you shape this power to make it do what you want. Vlad also says, I think in Jhereg, that Witchcraft relies on internal (mental?) power, and I believe this is part of psionics. It seems that all Dragaerans and Easterners have the ability to use psionics, but I always got the impression that it was necessary for Witchcraft, but not for Sorcery. Another point I've noticed, since I've been reading the books in rough chronological order starting with Phoenix Guards, that the widespread use of psionics is relatively new among Dragaerans. In Phoenix Guards, Garland and that sorceress (who's name I can't remember) seemed to be the only ones who could talk over long distances, and Khaavren & Co. seem surprised when they learn about the device. In Five Hundred Years After, we learn that the Emperor can contact people through their link to the Orb, but this only appears to be a direct connection. The Emperor can talk to you, or you can talk to the Emperor. Adron and Aliera are able to use psionics, but Tazendra and Sethra explain that this is due to their close bond of father and daughter. But by the time Vlad rolls into the scene, everyone and their lackey seems to be able to use psionics. Vlad constantly queries his own men, and Morrolan's men, using this method. Again, this could just be because since Vlad obviously has his organization set up how he likes it, and also set up security at Castle Black, he insisted on the use of psionics. Just some random musings. Some of this could be dead wrong, and since I'm only 3/4 of the way through Yendi, it could be explained more in later books, but, ah well. __________________________________________________ Mark Porter "Anyone can be nice, but it takes a truly special person to be evil." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Turkel" I think psionics and Sorcery are the same. I could be wrong but based on all the evidence I've seen I think that this is so. The Serioli are the original inhabitants of the world so their magic is probably unlike the other two varieties. From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Jun 7 11:02:51 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 07 Jun 2002 13:02:51 -0500 Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: <000901c20c49$0884c4e0$17ecca18@ingram> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020604210026.00a4b040@pop3.lvcm.com> <000901c20c49$0884c4e0$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: "Scott Ingram" writes: > Okay, still getting used to this email list; I responded to a previous email > directly to Mr. Brust, not the list. > > I gather by 'jobbers and wholesalers' you're referring to small bookstores > and their ilk? I can understand why this upsets people, but I don't > understand how this would affect paperback sales. Is it the case that the > larger chains are pushing the top-ten authors (Clancy, King, etc...) and not > stocking the lesser known authors? Or is it that their increased buying > power is forcing publishers to sell their wares at a lower price? No, jobbers and wholesalers are the ones who stock wire racks in airports and supermarkets and newsstands and drugstores. And bookstores do also buy from them. One of the biggest national ones is called "Ingram's", amusingly enough given who asked the question (I'm guessing no relation in this case). -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Jun 7 11:06:04 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 07 Jun 2002 13:06:04 -0500 Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: <1fdb5tu.8r9m7c2tso38M%tyan@twcny.rr.com> References: <1fdb5tu.8r9m7c2tso38M%tyan@twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) writes: > Whereas stripping was what was described: In the U.S., to make > 'returning' unsold mass market paperbacks cheaper, the covers were > stripped and returned, and the contents (supposedly) destroyed. (Note > that hardcovers and trade paperbacks, when returned, are returned whole > -- not stripped. And I'm not sure if stripping is done anywhere else > but the U.S.) > > Corrections on any/all of the above are welcome! More details -- the "paperback" distribution system was, in fact, the *magazine* distribution system. The procedure for returning unsold magazines was to strip the covers, since they were of no value past the sale date (but the covers proved they really hadn't been sold). When early paperback publishers sprang up and started putting their product through the magazine distribution system, they conformed to existing practice there. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Jun 7 11:06:34 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 07 Jun 2002 13:06:34 -0500 Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: <3CFE29F8.586.1045F56@localhost> References: <3CFE29F8.586.1045F56@localhost> Message-ID: corwin at mpls.cx writes: > On 5 Jun 2002 at 12:35, Steven Brust wrote: > > > At 02:33 PM 6/5/2002 -0500, Rachael Lininger wrote: > > > > >Memory is the first to go. Next is Komarr.... > > > > Canonically, memory is the *second* thing to go. > > What's the first? All together now... We don't remember! -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From geewiz at mac.com Fri Jun 7 10:57:27 2002 From: geewiz at mac.com (Glenn Ellingson) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 10:57:27 -0700 Subject: "The time has come, the Walrus said In-Reply-To: <003c01c20e4a$40832320$59a97218@slnt.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <07BE9B0F-7A40-11D6-A1FF-003065C447F2@mac.com> On Friday, June 7, 2002, at 10:39 AM, Mark Porter wrote: > Another point I've noticed, since I've been reading the books in rough > chronological order starting with Phoenix Guards, that the widespread use > of > psionics is relatively new among Dragaerans. The explanation given, which makes sense, is that the Interregnum (with the complete loss of "Empire" sorcery) caused many Dragaerans to study paths they had neglected while they had the easy power of the Orb. When Zerika brought back the Orb, sorcerers who had worked on their psionics and then regained connection to the Orb were able to accomplish much that had not been possible (or at least wasn't common) before the Interregnum. Hence the easy teleportation, the psionic communication between people with less mutual familiarity than Adron and Aliera, etc. This seems to show that all these disciplines are related. I think that mental control (psionics) would be both a fundamental skill for a witch and a great asset for a sorcerer. A sorcerer gets fed the power of Chaos via the Orb, but that doesn't mean they can do much (other than blow out their mind) without mental skills. Now, "pre-Empire sorcery" is very interesting, especially as relates to the Jenoine. In several books there is a clear distinction between being able to *control* pure chaos/amorphia and the ability to *make* it. Someone who studes pre-Empire sorcery can control chaos (without the intermediary of the Orb); only descendents (by genes or soul, apparently) of Kieron's family can make amorphia. This includes Adron and Aliera (by genes) and Vlad (by soul). This does *not* include Morollan, who has studied pre-Empire sorcery but cannot create the raw material it uses (chaos/amorphia). Most odd to me is that apparently the Jenoine, who certainly use amorphia in their "magic", also cannot create it (hence their desire to get it from Dragaera). This suggests that they did *not* breed the ability into Kieron' s family -- I would think that if they could give the ability to otehrs that they could have it themselves. Perhaps it was a "natural mutation" or whatever. Also, I wonder if the magic of the gods should be yet another category? -- Glenn Ellingson From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Jun 7 11:10:14 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 07 Jun 2002 13:10:14 -0500 Subject: Map and RPGs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Joe Lynch" writes: > I fork over for my favorite authors.... (Mr. Brust, GRR Martin, Glen Cook) > > Besides, I reread books, so it's nice having something that won't fall apart > in a year or two. It'd be nice if the books were thicker though. :) You should like the next ones, then. I think it's the biggest stack of paper I've ever seen representing one "work" (will be three books I believe as published). I'm a rereader too. Do you have any idea how you acquired the habit? My crackpot theory on it is that, when I'd read everything in the library with a rocketship on the spine, I had to start over, and I got used to it. Whatever, I *do* like rereading a lot. And it's not always the books I consider best that I reread, it's very strange. I think really *really* highly of Zelazny's _Lord of Light_, for example, but have only read it half a dozen or so times I think. Whereas I've reread about all the Doc Smith books more than that. I love them, but they're not "as good" in any meaningful sense I can think of. Ah well. Brains. They're just too complicated. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Jun 7 11:12:53 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 07 Jun 2002 13:12:53 -0500 Subject: [dragaera] How far will it go? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605221736.00a51520@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605072141.00a63650@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020605205039.00a53e00@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020605221736.00a51520@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: Steven Brust writes: > At 12:19 AM 6/6/2002 -0400, Scott Ingram wrote: > >Heh, speaking of maps for the Dragaera books, how about a map of the Paths? > >:) > > Yeah, right. You are in a maze of twisty little Paths of the Dead, all different. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Jun 7 11:17:12 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 07 Jun 2002 13:17:12 -0500 Subject: On the subject of peppers.....a warning In-Reply-To: <161.ec44ebd.2a2fa70e@aol.com> References: <161.ec44ebd.2a2fa70e@aol.com> Message-ID: Starshadw at aol.com writes: > Yeesh. How come Vlad never had this problem? :) Vlad has lots of contacts, but he never puts them in *his eyes*. I think that's where you went wrong. :-) -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Jun 7 11:19:31 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 07 Jun 2002 13:19:31 -0500 Subject: On the subject of peppers.....a warning In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605221624.00a52740@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605221624.00a52740@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: Steven Brust writes: > At 11:27 PM 6/5/2002 -0400, Mark Porter wrote: > > Have you, or has anyone, ever come up with > >recipes for some of these delicious meals? > > Well, you can always ask DDB about anise-jelled winneaserous steak. Or you could ask Steven about Ash-Mountain potatoes. Gotta get some more work on that content management system done, so we can start opening up some sections of the web site -- like a recipe section. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Jun 7 11:32:04 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 07 Jun 2002 13:32:04 -0500 Subject: Another Turn of Subject In-Reply-To: References: <12c.12750b9a.2a307ce0@aol.com> Message-ID: Nancy Thuleen writes: > (Xthread: now see, if I'd had an e-book version of Dragon, I > wouldn't have had to flip through so many pages -- but on the other > hand, as someone else pointed out, I knew the scene I was looking > for was at the top half of a right-hand side page, and I don't know > if I'd have been able to find that in an e-book. Still, I'm for > them, in general terms.) Okay, here's a bit of a teaser. I'm working on putting together a search engine with access to the full text of the books (I've got 4 books to work with, and now I'm working on getting the search engine part going; it'll be quite a bit of work to complete the set of books when that's ready). This should make it easy to look for things like that. The way existing search engines work isn't ideal for this -- they find a *document*, and don't go into details on hits within that document. So I've got htdig working in my test environment, but it's not really returning useful information yet and I'm pondering how much I can do by working with templates, and how much trouble it would be to go into the actual code. I think it assumes a very different model, unfortunately. But I hope to get something working eventually. It'll probably return hits mostly in terms of "20% into chapter 7 of _Dragon_" or something; because one constraint is we don't want it to give away the text of the books *too* easily. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Jun 7 11:35:44 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 07 Jun 2002 13:35:44 -0500 Subject: Chinese Emperor Joke: The Sequel In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606210144.00a4f030@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606210144.00a4f030@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: Steven Brust writes: > We all know, of course, how the artisan for his Majesty the Emperor of > India at last agreed to accompany the artisan for his Majesty the > Emperor of China (and, of course, the ubiquitous executioner) back to > China to repair the bush in exchange for two delicacies, but not many > know what happened when they got there. > > At last, thanks the uncovering of certain ancient scrolls, this can > now be revealed. And a stunned silence ensues. They didn't happen to run into a bar with a round pool table while they were in Japan, did they? -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From Beldarrin at aol.com Fri Jun 7 11:29:06 2002 From: Beldarrin at aol.com (Beldarrin at aol.com) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 14:29:06 -0400 Subject: Still not convinced about Cawti... Message-ID: <58136F33.20F994A1.0221815B@aol.com> Just to rebut my standpoint on Cawti (and taking into consideration the fact that I've only read up to "Orca," by publication date), I really don't like Cawti anymore. She was fine in the beginning, and her "change" was very much characteristic of her, but I still think she's a bitch. When she was supposed to be a stronghold for Vlad, she chose to selfishly (in my opinion)and uncompromisingly do something she had to have known could potentially ruin her relationship with her husband. I know people grow apart all the time, but it seems to me she chose to take up a new cause, a new life, and delivered Vlad an ultimatum. Alright, after talking in circles a bit, I think I've drawn two conclusions as to why I don't really like Cawti: 1.) The situation hits way too close to home, and I completely empathize with poor Vlad, and 2.) I just think Vlad's swell. :) Those are just some of my thoughts, anyway... ~ Steph From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Jun 7 11:41:15 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 07 Jun 2002 13:41:15 -0500 Subject: oops. ebooks? In-Reply-To: <1FB0FAD0-78E1-11D6-B1F6-00039386187A@adelphia.net> References: <1FB0FAD0-78E1-11D6-B1F6-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: Chris Turkel writes: > I actually dislike ebooks myself, I really dislike reading on a > screen. I'd rather hold a book, which would have clearer type, then > stare a screen, but that might be just me. Then I think we can say you're not part of the target market :-). I find the current Palm Pilot screens marginal for reading. I've read 5 novels on my Palm so far, I think, and another three or something on my big monitors. However, being able to carry three books for no additional weight (I'd have the palm with me for other reasons) is very useful. And while the Palm formats aren't ideal, I really like the utilities I can apply to ebooks (you can't grep dead trees). I won't venture to predict how the actual market goes, since it depends on everything from technological change to marketing to legal decisions. I'd *like* to get more things in ebook format, especially with improved readers (and I'm sure the Palm will continue to improve rapidly). I won't touch proprietary locked formats, though. It can also cause a real upset in the distribution chain, potentially, reducing prices to customers while increasing payments to authors, say. But remember that the vast majority of people read very few books, and wouldn't buy a special device to read them on. Luckily the penetration of the Palm device is going well enough that there's a market of people who already have the reader for other reasons. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Jun 7 11:45:35 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 07 Jun 2002 13:45:35 -0500 Subject: paperbacks vs. hardcovers In-Reply-To: <013401c20cf4$10c93310$1401a8c0@Spencer> References: <013401c20cf4$10c93310$1401a8c0@Spencer> Message-ID: "Lisa Grant Coffin" writes: > In my estimation, there are three great reasons to choose hardcovers > over paperbacks when you love the author. The third one is my > impression, and may be wrong, but I sincerely hope not, because I've > been doing this for years. > > 1. They are tactile, luxurious, and last longer. > 2. The covers are bigger and better quality. > 2. They give the author more money. They're heavier to carry around or to support while reading (especially in bed). They're more valuable, so I have to take more care in carrying them around. I feel worse when I wear them out. They take different bookshelves. And they're more expensive. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From tyan at twcny.rr.com Fri Jun 7 11:36:47 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 14:36:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "The time has come, the Walrus said In-Reply-To: <07BE9B0F-7A40-11D6-A1FF-003065C447F2@mac.com> (message from Glenn Ellingson on Fri, 7 Jun 2002 10:57:27 -0700) References: <07BE9B0F-7A40-11D6-A1FF-003065C447F2@mac.com> Message-ID: <200206071836.g57Ial701367@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Glenn Ellingson wrote: > > On Friday, June 7, 2002, at 10:39 AM, Mark Porter wrote: > > Another point I've noticed, since I've been reading the books in > > rough chronological order starting with Phoenix Guards, that the > > widespread use of psionics is relatively new among Dragaerans. > > The explanation given, which makes sense, is that the Interregnum (with (To elaborate: at least part of the explanation is given in _Phoenix_.) > the complete loss of "Empire" sorcery) caused many Dragaerans to study > paths they had neglected while they had the easy power of the Orb. When > Zerika brought back the Orb, sorcerers who had worked on their psionics > and then regained connection to the Orb were able to accomplish much that > had not been possible (or at least wasn't common) before the Interregnum. > Hence the easy teleportation, the psionic communication between people > with less mutual familiarity than Adron and Aliera, etc. -snip- Also... *** mild spoiler for Phoenix Guards *** ...note that revivification is new, e.g. the guards that the 'musketeers' kill and other dead people stay dead. The possibility of revification isn't brought up. - tky From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Jun 7 11:50:24 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 07 Jun 2002 13:50:24 -0500 Subject: Teckla, Cawti, Book Covers, and Whatnot In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20020607104433.007c1ce0@astound.net> References: <3.0.5.32.20020607104433.007c1ce0@astound.net> Message-ID: Melissa Fitzgerald writes: > Ok, I can't agree with all the Cawti slamming. It's painfully obvious that > in _Teckla_ we only hear Vlad's side of the story. Vlad feels irritated > and maddened by Cawti's seemingly inexplicable behavior, so we do, too. I > think, from what we learn in _Orca_, that Cawti's motivation becomes much > more understandable. At any rate, she had a great deal of courage to > confront Vlad and eventually leave him. Her spouse was a hired killer--it > doesn't get much worse than that. I think maybe Cawti isn't impressed by hired killers -- having been one herself, and all. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From tyan at twcny.rr.com Fri Jun 7 11:46:15 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 14:46:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Another Turn of Subject In-Reply-To: (message from David Dyer-Bennet on 07 Jun 2002 13:32:04 -0500) References: <12c.12750b9a.2a307ce0@aol.com> Message-ID: <200206071846.g57IkFO01370@localhost.twcny.rr.com> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > Nancy Thuleen writes: > > > (Xthread: now see, if I'd had an e-book version of Dragon, I > > wouldn't have had to flip through so many pages -- but on the other > > hand, as someone else pointed out, I knew the scene I was looking > > for was at the top half of a right-hand side page, and I don't know > > if I'd have been able to find that in an e-book. Still, I'm for > > them, in general terms.) I was the someone, and claim you'd be able to do that in a good e-book implementation. > Okay, here's a bit of a teaser. I'm working on putting together a > search engine with access to the full text of the books (I've got 4 > books to work with, and now I'm working on getting the search engine > part going; it'll be quite a bit of work to complete the set of books > when that's ready). This should make it easy to look for things like > that. Yay! > The way existing search engines work isn't ideal for this -- they find > a *document*, and don't go into details on hits within that document. > So I've got htdig working in my test environment, but it's not really > returning useful information yet and I'm pondering how much I can do > by working with templates, and how much trouble it would be to go into > the actual code. I think it assumes a very different model, > unfortunately. Could you make each page in the book a separate document, e.g. Dragon-Ch3-p72? Then returning the document automatically gives you the book, the chapter, and --for at least one edition-- the page number, from which you could also get "20% into the chapter", like you describe below: > But I hope to get something working eventually. It'll probably return > hits mostly in terms of "20% into chapter 7 of _Dragon_" or something; > because one constraint is we don't want it to give away the text of > the books *too* easily. - tky P.S. I'm switching to the digest. All this traffic is neat, but it is a constant flood! From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Jun 7 12:07:54 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 07 Jun 2002 14:07:54 -0500 Subject: Another Turn of Subject In-Reply-To: <200206071846.g57IkFO01370@localhost.twcny.rr.com> References: <12c.12750b9a.2a307ce0@aol.com> <200206071846.g57IkFO01370@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) writes: > Could you make each page in the book a separate document, > e.g. Dragon-Ch3-p72? Then returning the document automatically gives > you the book, the chapter, and --for at least one edition-- the page > number, from which you could also get "20% into the chapter", like you > describe below: I *could*, but it would have consequences. For example, looking for a phrase that crossed the page boundary would always fail, and looking for things "near" each other wouldn't find them on separate pages. > P.S. I'm switching to the digest. All this traffic is neat, but it is a > constant flood! Let me know if it works; it's supposed to be there, but I don't believe I've done anything to test it. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From nthuleen at students.wisc.edu Fri Jun 7 12:01:42 2002 From: nthuleen at students.wisc.edu (Nancy Thuleen) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 14:01:42 -0500 Subject: "The time has come, the Walrus said In-Reply-To: <07BE9B0F-7A40-11D6-A1FF-003065C447F2@mac.com> References: <07BE9B0F-7A40-11D6-A1FF-003065C447F2@mac.com> Message-ID: At 10:57 -0700 07.6.2002, Glenn Ellingson wrote: > When Zerika brought back the Orb, sorcerers who had worked on their > psionics and then regained connection to the Orb were able to > accomplish much that had not been possible (or at least wasn't common) > before the Interregnum. Hence the easy teleportation ... I'm sure someone has puzzled through this before, but there's one aspect of this I'm just not getting. It's clear (Paarfi states it explicitly) that teleportation was basically impossible before the Interregnum (well, not impossible, perhaps, but he says there were no reports of any successful attempts) ... and yet the Dragonlords had all of those floating castles, which Paarfi also makes a big deal about. And Vlad, upon his first visit to Castle Black, comments that the only way to get there was to teleport. So, umm, how did all of those pre-Interregnum Dragons get to and from their castles? I just don't have any answer, and I'd love to hear what people suggest. The only thing I've come up with is that the Dragonlords were keeping their teleportation a secret, but that doesn't make a lot of sense, since surely they would have wanted a few visitors from time to time ... - Nancy. From anthony at netdocuments.com Fri Jun 7 12:04:17 2002 From: anthony at netdocuments.com (Anthony Tedjamulia) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 13:04:17 -0600 Subject: "The time has come, the Walrus said Message-ID: How did they get into floating castles before the interregnum? I shall tell you: Really, really, really long rope ladders. "Don't look down, it only makes it worse!" Or, you could ride a giant Jhereg. "Don't tickle him there, he'll bite you!" -----Original Message----- From: Nancy Thuleen [mailto:nthuleen at students.wisc.edu] Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 1:02 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: "The time has come, the Walrus said At 10:57 -0700 07.6.2002, Glenn Ellingson wrote: > When Zerika brought back the Orb, sorcerers who had worked on their > psionics and then regained connection to the Orb were able to > accomplish much that had not been possible (or at least wasn't common) > before the Interregnum. Hence the easy teleportation ... I'm sure someone has puzzled through this before, but there's one aspect of this I'm just not getting. It's clear (Paarfi states it explicitly) that teleportation was basically impossible before the Interregnum (well, not impossible, perhaps, but he says there were no reports of any successful attempts) ... and yet the Dragonlords had all of those floating castles, which Paarfi also makes a big deal about. And Vlad, upon his first visit to Castle Black, comments that the only way to get there was to teleport. So, umm, how did all of those pre-Interregnum Dragons get to and from their castles? I just don't have any answer, and I'd love to hear what people suggest. The only thing I've come up with is that the Dragonlords were keeping their teleportation a secret, but that doesn't make a lot of sense, since surely they would have wanted a few visitors from time to time ... - Nancy. From tyan at twcny.rr.com Fri Jun 7 12:23:22 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 15:23:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Another Turn of Subject In-Reply-To: (message from David Dyer-Bennet on 07 Jun 2002 14:07:54 -0500) References: <12c.12750b9a.2a307ce0@aol.com> <200206071846.g57IkFO01370@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <200206071923.g57JNMj01457@localhost.twcny.rr.com> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) writes: > > > Could you make each page in the book a separate document, > > e.g. Dragon-Ch3-p72? Then returning the document automatically gives > > you the book, the chapter, and --for at least one edition-- the page > > number, from which you could also get "20% into the chapter", like you > > describe below: > > I *could*, but it would have consequences. For example, looking for a > phrase that crossed the page boundary would always fail, and looking > for things "near" each other wouldn't find them on separate pages. Oh yeah, that sucks. But it would be nice to get precise page numbers in there somehow, in addition to just a percentage. > > P.S. I'm switching to the digest. All this traffic is neat, but it is a > > constant flood! > > Let me know if it works; it's supposed to be there, but I don't > believe I've done anything to test it. Will do. Good thing I haven't yet unsubscribed to the undigested version, then! - tky From terrick at cox.net Fri Jun 7 12:24:23 2002 From: terrick at cox.net (ryan) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 14:24:23 -0500 Subject: "The time has come, the Walrus said In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004301c20e58$f1429a20$0364a8c0@darwin> I like the giant Jhereg idea, but I bet they probably just levitated up. -----Original Message----- From: Anthony Tedjamulia [mailto:anthony at netdocuments.com] Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 2:04 PM To: 'Nancy Thuleen'; dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: RE: "The time has come, the Walrus said How did they get into floating castles before the interregnum? I shall tell you: Really, really, really long rope ladders. "Don't look down, it only makes it worse!" Or, you could ride a giant Jhereg. "Don't tickle him there, he'll bite you!" -----Original Message----- From: Nancy Thuleen [mailto:nthuleen at students.wisc.edu] Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 1:02 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: "The time has come, the Walrus said At 10:57 -0700 07.6.2002, Glenn Ellingson wrote: > When Zerika brought back the Orb, sorcerers who had worked on their > psionics and then regained connection to the Orb were able to > accomplish much that had not been possible (or at least wasn't common) > before the Interregnum. Hence the easy teleportation ... I'm sure someone has puzzled through this before, but there's one aspect of this I'm just not getting. It's clear (Paarfi states it explicitly) that teleportation was basically impossible before the Interregnum (well, not impossible, perhaps, but he says there were no reports of any successful attempts) ... and yet the Dragonlords had all of those floating castles, which Paarfi also makes a big deal about. And Vlad, upon his first visit to Castle Black, comments that the only way to get there was to teleport. So, umm, how did all of those pre-Interregnum Dragons get to and from their castles? I just don't have any answer, and I'd love to hear what people suggest. The only thing I've come up with is that the Dragonlords were keeping their teleportation a secret, but that doesn't make a lot of sense, since surely they would have wanted a few visitors from time to time ... - Nancy. From frank at exit.com Fri Jun 7 12:24:41 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 12:24:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "The time has come, the Walrus said In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200206071924.g57JOf9S030784@realtime.exit.com> Nancy Thuleen wrote: > [About floating castles...] > I just don't have any answer, and I'd love to hear what people suggest. The only thing I've come up with is that the Dragonlords were keeping their teleportation a secret, but that doesn't make a lot of sense, since surely they would have wanted a few visitors from time to time ... I would think it obvious that while teleportation was out, levitation posed no particular problem... -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From nthuleen at students.wisc.edu Fri Jun 7 12:27:46 2002 From: nthuleen at students.wisc.edu (Nancy Thuleen) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 14:27:46 -0500 Subject: Teckla, Cawti, Book Covers, and Whatnot In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20020607104433.007c1ce0@astound.net> References: <3.0.5.32.20020607104433.007c1ce0@astound.net> Message-ID: At 10:44 -0500 07.6.2002, Melissa Fitzgerald wrote: > Ok, I can't agree with all the Cawti slamming. Since we're all stating our positions on Teckla, I'll chime in. I have to admit to being pretty severely disappointed when I read it for the very first time (in what, 1987?). But I was 15, and I'll admit that I really just wanted more ironic-assassin Vlad, not political activism and relationship pain. As the years went by and I started rereading the series, however, I found that not only is Teckla completely necessary for Vlad's further development, it's actually a really well-written book. The problem that I still have with it is that it's so well-written that it's *painful* to read, because it's too heart-wrenchingly realistic and the outcome is so unavoidable. I don't find it *fun* to read, but I sincerely doubt that Vlad found it fun to live through, so I don't fault it for that. So, although I'd never call it my favorite Vlad book (I think Orca ranks up there, along with Jhereg itself), I certainly don't dislike it. I had a similar reaction to Athyra, though less intense: the lack of Vlad's narration really threw me on a first read, but subsequent appraisals have placed it up near the top of my list, and I do very much appreciate the different viewpoint now. But then, every time I reread a Brust book it rises to the top of my list, to be displaced by the next one I reread. Sigh, such a problem. But yeah, I do want to slap Cawti for most of Teckla. At the same time, parts of her behavior and the relationship issues hit too close to home, so I can't totally hate her. - Nancy. From mss2 at attbi.com Fri Jun 7 12:34:02 2002 From: mss2 at attbi.com (Michael S. Schiffer) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 14:34:02 -0500 Subject: META: Quoting styles Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607142754.02fa8648@mail.attbi.com> It might not be a bad idea for the list to settle on a standard for quoting previous articles. (Such a standard could even go into an FAQ for the list, as and when.) I personally like Usenet-style quoting, where responses immediately follow the points they're responding to and extraneous material gets snipped. (I think it makes for a more conversational style.) But many people like the "quote the whole thing and insert responses at the top" (which some e-mail programs encourage). At this point, I think a majority of people here are doing the first, but a noticeable minority are doing the second. I think exchanges go more smoothly if everyone (or at least most people) are following the same standard-- otherwise, in long exchanges, you wind up with posts where you can't tell who said what, or in what order. Just a thought. Mike From nthuleen at students.wisc.edu Fri Jun 7 12:32:48 2002 From: nthuleen at students.wisc.edu (Nancy Thuleen) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 14:32:48 -0500 Subject: "The time has come, the Walrus said In-Reply-To: <200206071924.g57JOf9S030784@realtime.exit.com> References: <200206071924.g57JOf9S030784@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: At 12:24 -0700 07.6.2002, Frank Mayhar wrote: > [About floating castles...] > I would think it obvious that while teleportation was out, levitation > posed no particular problem... D'oh. Yeah, as I said, I knew someone must have puzzled it out. Oh well. :) Mystery solved, I suppose. - Nancy. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jun 7 12:33:50 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 12:33:50 -0700 Subject: Another Turn of Subject In-Reply-To: <200206071612.g57GCw5p096278@realtime.exit.com> References: <4320097D.5FA4355A.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607123246.00a5e9e0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 09:12 AM 6/7/2002 -0700, Frank Mayhar wrote: > (Steve, do you suspect that you might have >picked up some vibrations from your life during this point? Feel free to >not answer...) Oh, I've answered that one before. It was directly out of my life, only I didn't realize it at the time I was working on the book. I figured it out when I read the page proofs, and felt like a complete idiot. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jun 7 12:36:13 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 12:36:13 -0700 Subject: Ahhhhh.....Jhereg In-Reply-To: <22DF23F8.79BA8A82.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607123521.00a64c50@pop3.lvcm.com> At 12:18 PM 6/7/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >are then more akin to what we think of as wyverns. Interesting. I can't >remember if it was specifically mentioned in any of the descriptions, but >are dragons six-limbed on Dragaera (four "walking" limbs, plus two wings?) >or four-limbed like jhereg? Four-limbed. >And since you've brought it up, just how big -are- typical (not the giant >ones) jhereg? Wingspan of about four feet. >Although I'd be curious just how big the giant ones are as well.... They can carry away a normal man. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jun 7 12:47:29 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 12:47:29 -0700 Subject: "The time has come, the Walrus said In-Reply-To: References: <28500956.1EFD1ABF.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607124121.00a61150@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:50 AM 6/7/2002 -0500, Chris Bisanar wrote: >Steve, what did I miss, or are you snickering already at how wrong I've got >it all? :) Well, you left out wizardry. But while I have no actual disagreement with you, you ought to know that, in my own head, I do not *want* these things precisely defined. That doesn't mean if I object if you do, it just means that I won't. While I confess to being a closet Aristotelian, I am still aware that, in the real world, things don't fall into the nice, neat, distinct categories we'd like them to. Magic, especially, cannot be precisely defined, or it stops being magic. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jun 7 12:56:59 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 12:56:59 -0700 Subject: [dragaera] How far will it go? In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605221736.00a51520@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020605072141.00a63650@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020605205039.00a53e00@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020605221736.00a51520@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607125641.00a527b0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 01:12 PM 6/7/2002 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >Steven Brust writes: > > > At 12:19 AM 6/6/2002 -0400, Scott Ingram wrote: > > >Heh, speaking of maps for the Dragaera books, how about a map of the > Paths? > > >:) > > > > Yeah, right. > >You are in a maze of twisty little Paths of the Dead, all different. ROFL! From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jun 7 12:58:39 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 12:58:39 -0700 Subject: Chinese Emperor Joke: The Sequel In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606210144.00a4f030@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020606210144.00a4f030@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607125814.00a65a80@pop3.lvcm.com> At 01:35 PM 6/7/2002 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >Steven Brust writes: > > > We all know, of course, how the artisan for his Majesty the Emperor of > > India at last agreed to accompany the artisan for his Majesty the > > Emperor of China (and, of course, the ubiquitous executioner) back to > > China to repair the bush in exchange for two delicacies, but not many > > know what happened when they got there. > > > > At last, thanks the uncovering of certain ancient scrolls, this can > > now be revealed. > >And a stunned silence ensues. > >They didn't happen to run into a bar with a round pool table while >they were in Japan, did they? I can't tell you; you're not a monk. From anthony at netdocuments.com Fri Jun 7 12:58:19 2002 From: anthony at netdocuments.com (Anthony Tedjamulia) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 13:58:19 -0600 Subject: "The time has come, the Walrus said Message-ID: > Magic, especially, cannot be precisely defined, > or it stops being magic. The Magic of this particular universe seems very well-defined already---which is one of the reasons that I like it so much. I appreciate the fact that the "spells" weren't arbitrary and trite like they are in Harry Potter, for example. There seems to be an appropriate balance of mysticism and science behind the magics of Dragaera. I've always been of the belief that magic must have a set of rules for people to be able to write books about it, pass the learning on to others, and master it. How precise or imprecise is the magic in this story? From what I read, there is the insinuation of a significant amount of thought (and maybe even precision) put into it. From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Jun 7 13:15:04 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 07 Jun 2002 15:15:04 -0500 Subject: META: Quoting styles In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607142754.02fa8648@mail.attbi.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607142754.02fa8648@mail.attbi.com> Message-ID: "Michael S. Schiffer" writes: > It might not be a bad idea for the list to settle on a standard for > quoting previous articles. (Such a standard could even go into an FAQ > for the list, as and when.) I personally like Usenet-style quoting, > where responses immediately follow the points they're responding to > and extraneous material gets snipped. (I think it makes for a more > conversational style.) But many people like the "quote the whole > thing and insert responses at the top" (which some e-mail programs > encourage). At this point, I think a majority of people here are > doing the first, but a noticeable minority are doing the second. I > think exchanges go more smoothly if everyone (or at least most people) > are following the same standard-- otherwise, in long exchanges, you > wind up with posts where you can't tell who said what, or in what > order. Just a thought. Personally, I *despise* top-posting. It makes the quote useless, and you can't tell what paragraph people are responding to, and it ruins the quoting sequence of people posting properly. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jun 7 13:05:21 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 13:05:21 -0700 Subject: "The time has come, the Walrus said In-Reply-To: References: <07BE9B0F-7A40-11D6-A1FF-003065C447F2@mac.com> <07BE9B0F-7A40-11D6-A1FF-003065C447F2@mac.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607130433.00a65780@pop3.lvcm.com> At 02:01 PM 6/7/2002 -0500, Nancy Thuleen wrote: >At 10:57 -0700 07.6.2002, Glenn Ellingson wrote: > > > When Zerika brought back the Orb, sorcerers who had worked on their > > psionics and then regained connection to the Orb were able to > > accomplish much that had not been possible (or at least wasn't common) > > before the Interregnum. Hence the easy teleportation ... > >I'm sure someone has puzzled through this before, but there's one aspect >of this I'm just not getting. It's clear (Paarfi states it explicitly) >that teleportation was basically impossible before the Interregnum (well, >not impossible, perhaps, but he says there were no reports of any >successful attempts) ... and yet the Dragonlords had all of those floating >castles, which Paarfi also makes a big deal about. And Vlad, upon his >first visit to Castle Black, comments that the only way to get there was >to teleport. You keep forgetting that Vlad is an idiot. You *levitate* to the floating castles. (There will be more of this in Viscount). From vidroth at hotmail.com Fri Jun 7 13:09:02 2002 From: vidroth at hotmail.com (Chris Bisanar) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 15:09:02 -0500 Subject: "The time has come, the Walrus said References: <28500956.1EFD1ABF.0296E7C9@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020607124121.00a61150@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: From: "Steven Brust" > > >Steve, what did I miss, or are you snickering already at how wrong I've got > >it all? :) > > Well, you left out wizardry. > > But while I have no actual disagreement with you, you ought to know that, > in my own head, I do not *want* these things precisely defined. That > doesn't mean if I object if you do, it just means that I won't. While I > confess to being a closet Aristotelian, I am still aware that, in the real > world, things don't fall into the nice, neat, distinct categories we'd like > them to. Magic, especially, cannot be precisely defined, or it stops being > magic. > I agree entirely... if you turn magic into some kind of pseudoscience with clear, described rules, it ceases to be magical. Haha, midiclorians, anybody? Sigh... While I was reading Issola, I was afraid maybe the your rules for magic were getting a little to clear for my taste, but there were so many gray areas in my last e-mail that I've obviously got lots left to figure out. :) From mss2 at attbi.com Fri Jun 7 13:34:16 2002 From: mss2 at attbi.com (Michael S. Schiffer) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 15:34:16 -0500 Subject: "The time has come, the Walrus said In-Reply-To: References: <28500956.1EFD1ABF.0296E7C9@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020607124121.00a61150@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607152651.02ef6488@mail.attbi.com> At 03:09 PM 6/7/2002 -0500, Chris Bisanar wrote: >From: "Steven Brust" > > > > >Steve, what did I miss, or are you snickering already at how wrong I've >got > > >it all? :) > > Well, you left out wizardry. Vlad says that wizardry is just high-end sorcery. Of course, Vlad is an idiot. (As someone or other once said). After all, what does Vlad know about what wizards do, aside from failing to watch the space between their shoulder blades sufficiently carefully? > > But while I have no actual disagreement with you, you ought to know that, > > in my own head, I do not *want* these things precisely defined. That > > doesn't mean if I object if you do, it just means that I won't. >... >I agree entirely... if you turn magic into some kind of pseudoscience with >clear, described rules, it ceases to be magical. Haha, midiclorians, >anybody? Sigh... Though it can be done well: _Operation Chaos_, "Magic, Inc", the Lord Darcy stories, etc. My impression, actually, had been that sorcery was amenable to that sort of systemization, but that witchcraft was not (or at least hadn't yet been). The application of sorcery to things like genetics, the development of military sorcery, along with the general tone of discussion about sorcerous research, come across to me like nascent science, albeit science applied to forces that don't exist in our own world. (Of course, if the author disagrees... well I'll just have to read on and see how things develop. :-) ) Mike From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Jun 7 14:01:59 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 17:01:59 -0400 Subject: Ahhhhh.....Jhereg In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607123521.00a64c50@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: On Friday, June 7, 2002, at 03:36 PM, Steven Brust wrote: > At 12:18 PM 6/7/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >> are then more akin to what we think of as wyverns. Interesting. I >> can't remember if it was specifically mentioned in any of the >> descriptions, but are dragons six-limbed on Dragaera (four "walking" >> limbs, plus two wings?) or four-limbed like jhereg? > > Four-limbed. > >> And since you've brought it up, just how big -are- typical (not the >> giant ones) jhereg? > > Wingspan of about four feet. > >> Although I'd be curious just how big the giant ones are as well.... > > They can carry away a normal man. > > > > Whew! Good thing I'm not normal :-) -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From rachael at daedala.net Fri Jun 7 14:34:22 2002 From: rachael at daedala.net (Rachael Lininger) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 16:34:22 -0500 (CDT) Subject: META: Quoting styles In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607142754.02fa8648@mail.attbi.com> Message-ID: On Jun 7, Michael S. Schiffer said: >It might not be a bad idea for the list to settle on a standard for quoting >previous articles. (Such a standard could even go into an FAQ for the >list, as and when.) I personally like Usenet-style quoting, where >responses immediately follow the points they're responding to and >extraneous material gets snipped. (I think it makes for a more >conversational style.) Yes. >But many people like the "quote the whole thing and >insert responses at the top" (which some e-mail programs encourage). At >this point, I think a majority of people here are doing the first, but a >noticeable minority are doing the second. I think exchanges go more >smoothly if everyone (or at least most people) are following the same >standard-- otherwise, in long exchanges, you wind up with posts where you >can't tell who said what, or in what order. Just a thought. Top-posting is evil. I've spent my entire Internet career with normal quoting; then I started working at a place that uses Outlook, which nearly requires top-posting. The contrast is amazing--it makes conversations so much _stupider._ Interleaving quoting with your own text allows you to talk about individual statements and paragraphs. With top-posting, it takes major effort to provide enough information to discuss things. Besides, Steve quotes properly, and we should all do what Steve does so he doesn't get confused. Rachael, who isn't biased, no not a bit.... -- Rachael From the Dilbert Newsletter: Lininger "You should talk to her. rachael@ She is a minefield of information." daedala.net From grapawy at yahoo.com Fri Jun 7 14:32:00 2002 From: grapawy at yahoo.com (Gregory Rapawy) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 14:32:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Teckla, etc In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607113753.02ea9198@mail.attbi.com> Message-ID: <20020607213200.3574.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Michael S. Schiffer" wrote: [of Cawti in _Teckla_] > Half her conversations with Vlad come across as her > ignoring (or rather, willfully choosing to ignore) > the physical reality of the Cycle and the raw power > at the disposal of the Empire and the noble Houses, > not to mention her own personal experience with > Imperial politics (or at least with people who are > involved in Imperial politics). Well, they certainly do come across that way, and that is certainly how Vlad feels and how many others feel. I wonder if this is one of the places that we really do need to take Vlad's perceptions with a grain (or a shaker) of salt, though. Many historical and current cultures and regimes have made and now make extravagant claims about how their particular structure is (1) an inevitable consequence of physical reality or other natural law; (2) too well-entrenched ever to be shaken; (3) supported by overwhelming force too great to exist. At any given point in time these claims may appear from an internal (or even a contemporaneous external) perspective to be true, and then may either suddenly or gradually come to be not true. Vlad's perception of the Empire as something too big to fight realistically, rather than as merely a very big thing that would be difficult and dangerous to fight, could be explained by (1) his desire (having a comfortable position in the system) not to fight it; (2) his reliance on sources of information friendly to the established order of things (Aliera, Morrolan, Verra, the Jhereg, maybe Sethra -- her allegiances are complicated, though); (3) his temperament (Virt's comment in _Dragon_ that Vlad is a tactician and not a strategist, or Sethra's in _Issola_ that Vlad really isn't comfortable with root causes, which two observations come to a similar thing). It might be, of course, that the author does view the Cycle as a simple and unalterable physical reality, as Vlad almost describes it in _Taltos_ (though even Vlad says that a sufficiently strong person could move the Cycle -- and that raises the question: what kind of strength, and how much of it?). I sort of doubt it, though. It seems more likely to me that Vlad's conviction of the utter unreasonableness of Cawti's position is a combination of these sorts of things and as well of his predisposition at the time to think that Cawti is being utterly unreasonable. -- Greg __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From lisa at spindot.com Fri Jun 7 14:46:53 2002 From: lisa at spindot.com (Lisa Grant Coffin) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 17:46:53 -0400 Subject: Chinese Emperor Joke: The Sequel References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020606210144.00a4f030@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020606210144.00a4f030@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020607125814.00a65a80@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <003a01c20e6c$d6a72410$1401a8c0@Spencer> > At 01:35 PM 6/7/2002 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > >Steven Brust writes: > > > > > We all know, of course, how the artisan for his Majesty the Emperor of > > > India at last agreed to accompany the artisan for his Majesty the > > > Emperor of China (and, of course, the ubiquitous executioner) back to > > > China to repair the bush in exchange for two delicacies, but not many > > > know what happened when they got there. > > > > > > At last, thanks the uncovering of certain ancient scrolls, this can > > > now be revealed. > > > >And a stunned silence ensues. Here's a go, to fill in the stunned silence: Due to the prior usage of storms as plot device, there occurred another storm while the artisan for his Majesty the Emperor of China and the executioner were on their respective ways to Japan to secure livestock. During the course of said storm, an unknown device was placed by the moralist, and the executioner became seperated from the artisan. The artisan decided he could have a much better go of things well away from China; besides, he'd been able to irritate the monks, the Emperor, and the artisan for The Emperor of India. How much better could things get? Well, besides a pun thrown in for good measure, composed over drinks which made it even funnier. okay, who's next. anyone? From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Jun 7 14:47:15 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 17:47:15 -0400 Subject: Teckla, etc In-Reply-To: <20020607213200.3574.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <21CA7AA7-7A60-11D6-A1C2-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Friday, June 7, 2002, at 05:32 PM, Gregory Rapawy wrote: > --- "Michael S. Schiffer" wrote: > [of Cawti in _Teckla_] >> Half her conversations with Vlad come across as her >> ignoring (or rather, willfully choosing to ignore) >> the physical reality of the Cycle and the raw power >> at the disposal of the Empire and the noble Houses, > >> not to mention her own personal experience with >> Imperial politics (or at least with people who are >> involved in Imperial politics). > > Well, they certainly do come across that way, and that > is certainly how Vlad feels and how many others feel. > I wonder if this is one of the places that we really > do need to take Vlad's perceptions with a grain (or a > shaker) of salt, though. One of the first things you learn in lit class in college is that sometimes you have to decide if the narrator is trustworthy or not. I really like Vlad but I don't entirely trust him sometimes, I know there are things he's not saying, glossing over or outright lying about. Teckla is one of those books where you have decide how truthful he really is being. > > Many historical and current cultures and regimes have > made and now make extravagant claims about how their > particular structure is (1) an inevitable consequence > of physical reality or other natural law; (2) too > well-entrenched ever to be shaken; (3) supported by > overwhelming force too great to exist. At any given > point in time these claims may appear from an internal > (or even a contemporaneous external) perspective to be > true, and then may either suddenly or gradually come > to be not true. Rome? The United States? These seem to be two good examples off the top of my head. > > Vlad's perception of the Empire as something too big > to fight realistically, rather than as merely a very > big thing that would be difficult and dangerous to > fight, could be explained by (1) his desire (having a > comfortable position in the system) not to fight it; > (2) his reliance on sources of information friendly to > the established order of things (Aliera, Morrolan, > Verra, the Jhereg, maybe Sethra -- her allegiances are > complicated, though); (3) his temperament (Virt's > comment in _Dragon_ that Vlad is a tactician and not a > strategist, or Sethra's in _Issola_ that Vlad really > isn't comfortable with root causes, which two > observations come to a similar thing). > Hmmm...sounds reasonable. > It might be, of course, that the author does view the > Cycle as a simple and unalterable physical reality, as > Vlad almost describes it in _Taltos_ (though even Vlad > says that a sufficiently strong person could move the > Cycle -- and that raises the question: what kind of > strength, and how much of it?). I sort of doubt it, > though. God like strength, probably. The Cycle does seem simplistic, at least on one level but then again, sometimes that's the way it is is the best answer of all. > It seems more likely to me that Vlad's > conviction of the utter unreasonableness of Cawti's > position is a combination of these sorts of things and > as well of his predisposition at the time to think > that Cawti is being utterly unreasonable. > Ummm....yep -:) > -- Greg > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > > -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From mss2 at attbi.com Fri Jun 7 15:09:18 2002 From: mss2 at attbi.com (Michael S. Schiffer) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 17:09:18 -0500 Subject: Teckla, etc In-Reply-To: <20020607213200.3574.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607113753.02ea9198@mail.attbi.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607163618.02fae1f0@mail.attbi.com> At 02:32 PM 6/7/2002 -0700, Gregory Rapawy wrote: > >... >Many historical and current cultures and regimes have >made and now make extravagant claims about how their >particular structure is (1) an inevitable consequence >of physical reality or other natural law; (2) too >well-entrenched ever to be shaken; (3) supported by >overwhelming force too great to exist. At any given >point in time these claims may appear from an internal >(or even a contemporaneous external) perspective to be >true, and then may either suddenly or gradually come >to be not true. > >Vlad's perception of the Empire as something too big >to fight realistically, rather than as merely a very >big thing that would be difficult and dangerous to >fight, could be explained by (1) his desire (having a >comfortable position in the system) not to fight it; >(2) his reliance on sources of information friendly to >the established order of things (Aliera, Morrolan, >Verra, the Jhereg, maybe Sethra -- her allegiances are >complicated, though); (3) his temperament (Virt's >comment in _Dragon_ that Vlad is a tactician and not a >strategist, or Sethra's in _Issola_ that Vlad really >isn't comfortable with root causes, which two >observations come to a similar thing). He's also been to the Paths of the Dead, met the gods, and seen the Cycle in person. He knows that the Empire has supernatural underpinnings, regardless of how well he judges the strength of those underpinnings. This is an empire that's tens of thousands of years old. Even if it's possible to destroy it by revolution, the *first* thing you need to do is figure out how your revolution will differ from the Teckla revolts that fail 94.11% of the time, and for that matter how it will differ from the revolts that succeed at the right point of the Cycle (which, after all, gets you a temporary Teckla Republic, not the overthrow of the Cycle). I don't say that Cawti is wrong to lend herself to a goal like that. But she was the second or third-best assassin in the Empire once upon a time. She didn't get that way by lending herself to stupid plans, let alone by failing to plan at all. Maybe Vlad's reporting of her conversation was unfair or incomplete, but as given they even seem to be taking any of the above into account. As far as they seemed to be assuming, the Empire had lasted millennium upon millennium because no large group of Teckla ever figured out how to revolt before. >It might be, of course, that the author does view the >Cycle as a simple and unalterable physical reality, as >Vlad almost describes it in _Taltos_ (though even Vlad >says that a sufficiently strong person could move the >Cycle -- and that raises the question: what kind of >strength, and how much of it?). I would guess that it's possible to move or destroy the Cycle. It was possible to create it, after all. But in both cases, I would expect that it would require both mundane and magical power. The Empire was established by both, after all-- by warfare and by the manipulation of raw chaos into sorcerous power. Why would Cawti believe it could be destroyed by only one of those? She's seen the power of the people, and therefore ignores everything else she's ever learned about the world? If she were trying to assassinate someone, and knew that there had been 283 previous failed attempts, wouldn't she at least try to find out what had happened and avoid the same pitfalls? Yet there's no sense that she can articulate why this Teckla revolt is different from any other. (At least, when Vlad tries to poke around that part of the problem, she shuts him down, IIRC.) She needs more than justice on her side. The Teckla have been victims of injustice for longer than our subspecies has been unambiguously around. She (and her allies) need a plan for facing a powerful state backed by sorcery, the gods, and a few other mysterious supernatural forces. A state which, moreover, has endured (with one short Interregnum) for an order of magnitude or three longer than every state in our own world put together. For that, they need more than the conviction of their rightness backed by civil disobedience and popular revolt (or even whatever quarter-million-year-old copy of Lenin or Mao's Greatest Hits Paresh dug up). Mike From corwin at mpls.cx Fri Jun 7 15:13:52 2002 From: corwin at mpls.cx (corwin at mpls.cx) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 17:13:52 -0500 Subject: Group Reads In-Reply-To: <003301c20dae$e0591400$8fd47e18@we.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: <3D00E9D0.15140.8E433BB@localhost> On 6 Jun 2002 at 16:07, Brad Crawford wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 9:59 AM > Subject: Group Reads > > > > Would people be interested in doing group reads of the books? > Great idea. I'm totally up for that! Maybe we could create another (or a few more) lists for this. I also like the idea, but I'm worried about adding too much more traffic to this list, and driving away more cool people who get too much email already. readers at dragarea.info ? jhereg at dragaera.info, etc... Or something... From rachael at daedala.net Fri Jun 7 15:34:47 2002 From: rachael at daedala.net (Rachael Lininger) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 17:34:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Teckla, etc In-Reply-To: <21CA7AA7-7A60-11D6-A1C2-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: On Jun 7, Chris Turkel said: >One of the first things you learn in lit class in college is that >sometimes you have to decide if the narrator is trustworthy or not. I >really like Vlad but I don't entirely trust him sometimes, I know there >are things he's not saying, glossing over or outright lying about. >Teckla is one of those books where you have decide how truthful he >really is being. There are (at least) two kinds of unreliable narration: the ones where the narrator isn't seeing important things, and ones where the narrator is deliberately lying. Vlad is both dense and dishonest. So's Paarfi, in very different ways. >> It might be, of course, that the author does view the >> Cycle as a simple and unalterable physical reality, as >> Vlad almost describes it in _Taltos_ (though even Vlad >> says that a sufficiently strong person could move the >> Cycle -- and that raises the question: what kind of >> strength, and how much of it?). I sort of doubt it, >> though. > >God like strength, probably. The Cycle does seem simplistic, at least on >one level but then again, sometimes that's the way it is is the best >answer of all. Consider who he was, though: _even_ _if_ that were the case for Dragaera, Vlad might be able to do that sort of thing. Rachael -- Rachael From the Dilbert Newsletter: Lininger "You should talk to her. rachael@ She is a minefield of information." daedala.net From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Jun 7 15:18:52 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 18:18:52 -0400 Subject: Group Reads In-Reply-To: <3D00E9D0.15140.8E433BB@localhost> Message-ID: <8C5F66D8-7A64-11D6-8484-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Friday, June 7, 2002, at 06:13 PM, corwin at mpls.cx wrote: > On 6 Jun 2002 at 16:07, Brad Crawford wrote: >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 9:59 AM >> Subject: Group Reads >> >> >>> Would people be interested in doing group reads of the books? > >> Great idea. I'm totally up for that! > > Maybe we could create another (or a few more) lists for this. I also > like the idea, but I'm worried about adding too much more traffic to > this list, and driving away more cool people who get too much > email already. > > readers at dragarea.info ? > jhereg at dragaera.info, etc... > > Or something... > Perhaps readers at dragaera.info would be a good place to start. If trafic on that list gets too heavy, you can split it into different books. > -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jun 7 15:35:02 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 18:35:02 EDT Subject: "The time has come, the Walrus said Message-ID: <120.1150eb4f.2a328f16@aol.com> In a message dated 6/7/2002 1:55:02 PM Mountain Daylight Time, skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > Well, you left out wizardry. Now you've gone and muddied the waters even more. I thought that the use of the word wizard was simply used as a term for those who are really, really, REALLY good at sorcery??? Can you give us some idea, then, of what wizardry is? > > But while I have no actual disagreement with you, you ought to know that, > in my own head, I do not *want* these things precisely defined. That > doesn't mean if I object if you do, it just means that I won't. While I > confess to being a closet Aristotelian, I am still aware that, in the real > world, things don't fall into the nice, neat, distinct categories we'd like > > them to. Magic, especially, cannot be precisely defined, or it stops being > > magic. > I've always liked the ambiguity of Dragaeran (the world, not the race) magic - it allows for the creativity of the practitioner. If it was all clear-cut and about memorizing spells, poor Morrolan would still be stuck in the Paths of the Dead. Which would have irritated me greatly, as he is my favorite character. Maybe I shouldn't say that. :) Stacy From akomins at midway.uchicago.edu Fri Jun 7 15:37:06 2002 From: akomins at midway.uchicago.edu (Arin Komins) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 17:37:06 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Group Reads In-Reply-To: <3D00E9D0.15140.8E433BB@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Jun 2002 corwin at mpls.cx wrote: :Subject: Re: Group Reads : :On 6 Jun 2002 at 16:07, Brad Crawford wrote: :> ----- Original Message ----- :> From: :> To: :> Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 9:59 AM :> Subject: Group Reads :> :> :> > Would people be interested in doing group reads of the books? : :> Great idea. I'm totally up for that! : :Maybe we could create another (or a few more) lists for this. I also :like the idea, but I'm worried about adding too much more traffic to :this list, and driving away more cool people who get too much :email already. : :readers at dragarea.info ? :jhereg at dragaera.info, etc... I think splitting off the rpg stuff to a different list might be a good thing as well. Leave this list a bit less cluttered up ;-) Arin -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Arin Komins akomins at uchicago.edu Manager of Web Systems Architecture University of Chicago/NSIT tel: (773)834-4087 1155 E. 60th St. #302B Chicago, IL 60637 fax: (773)702-0559 ------------------------------------------------------------------ From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jun 7 15:37:36 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 18:37:36 EDT Subject: Ahhhhh.....Jhereg Message-ID: <13e.f7be452.2a328fb0@aol.com> In a message dated 6/7/2002 1:36:44 PM Mountain Daylight Time, skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > >are then more akin to what we think of as wyverns. Interesting. I can't > >remember if it was specifically mentioned in any of the descriptions, but > >are dragons six-limbed on Dragaera (four "walking" limbs, plus two wings?) > > >or four-limbed like jhereg? > > Four-limbed. So a four-limbed, Cthulhu-looking creature. Meep! Run away! Run away! > > >And since you've brought it up, just how big -are- typical (not the giant > >ones) jhereg? > > Wingspan of about four feet. That's pretty big right there. > > >Although I'd be curious just how big the giant ones are as well.... > > They can carry away a normal man. > Another Meep! for good measure, as I'm on the small end. No wonder Loiosh ducks inside Vlad's cloak. Stacy From mss2 at attbi.com Fri Jun 7 15:39:04 2002 From: mss2 at attbi.com (Michael S. Schiffer) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 17:39:04 -0500 Subject: Teckla, etc In-Reply-To: References: <21CA7AA7-7A60-11D6-A1C2-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607173334.0305e2c0@mail.attbi.com> At 05:34 PM 6/7/2002 -0500, Rachael Lininger wrote: >On Jun 7, Chris Turkel said: > > >One of the first things you learn in lit class in college is that > >sometimes you have to decide if the narrator is trustworthy or not. I > >really like Vlad but I don't entirely trust him sometimes, I know there > >are things he's not saying, glossing over or outright lying about. > >Teckla is one of those books where you have decide how truthful he > >really is being. > >There are (at least) two kinds of unreliable narration: the ones where >the narrator isn't seeing important things, and ones where the narrator >is deliberately lying. > >Vlad is both dense and dishonest. So's Paarfi, in very different >ways. > > >> It might be, of course, that the author does view the > >> Cycle as a simple and unalterable physical reality, as > >> Vlad almost describes it in _Taltos_ (though even Vlad > >> says that a sufficiently strong person could move the > >> Cycle -- and that raises the question: what kind of > >> strength, and how much of it?). I sort of doubt it, > >> though. > >God like strength, probably. The Cycle does seem simplistic, at least on > >one level but then again, sometimes that's the way it is is the best > >answer of all. >Consider who he was, though: _even_ _if_ that were the case for >Dragaera, Vlad might be able to do that sort of thing. Cawti, too-- *if* she'd start to think about the problem as something other than simply political and economic. Consider that there's at least strong circumstantial evidence that Devera is a god. Devera has only one known divine ancestor, her grandmother. Now, who else do we know who's the granddaughter of a being of that order (keeping in mind that the difference between gods and demons is one of degree, not kind)? Mike From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jun 7 15:42:48 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 18:42:48 EDT Subject: New Lists? Message-ID: <17d.96b70d5.2a3290e8@aol.com> Actually, I think supplemental lists are a great idea, although perhaps what we should do is just split off the RPG stuff, and leave the group reads here on the main list? Of course, if all goes well, most of the RPG talk should move to the message board on the website (once it gets created and such). You know, another option would be to create a message board with sub-areas for different things, then phase out the list(s) and then there wouldn't be the problem of lots and lots of Email (doesn't bother me much, as I'm used to vast amounts of Email). Stacy From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Jun 7 15:43:46 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 17:43:46 -0500 Subject: New Lists? In-Reply-To: <17d.96b70d5.2a3290e8@aol.com> References: <17d.96b70d5.2a3290e8@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020607224346.GA20595@infodancer.org> On Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 06:42:48PM -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > Actually, I think supplemental lists are a great idea, although perhaps what > we should do is just split off the RPG stuff, and leave the group reads here > on the main list? Of course, if all goes well, most of the RPG talk should > move to the message board on the website (once it gets created and such). > > You know, another option would be to create a message board with sub-areas > for different things, then phase out the list(s) and then there wouldn't be > the problem of lots and lots of Email (doesn't bother me much, as I'm used to > vast amounts of Email). This has the side effect of effectively preventing me (and others, I'm sure) from participating. I can't stand web-based message boards, while I live and breathe mailing lists. I don't mind the existance of a message board, but there are better ways to do it than phasing out the list. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20020607/7c705664/attachment.pgp From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jun 7 15:47:09 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 18:47:09 EDT Subject: "The time has come, the Walrus said Message-ID: In a message dated 6/7/2002 4:42:09 PM Mountain Daylight Time, Starshadw at aol.com writes: > Now you've gone and muddied the waters even more. I thought that the use of > > the word wizard was simply used as a term for those who are really, really, > > REALLY good at sorcery??? Can you give us some idea, then, of what > wizardry > is? > Good Lord. Talk about bad grammar..... ahem! What I was trying to say before my brain went off and tried to have me type the same thought in two different ways was that I thought wizard was just a term for someone who was top-notch as a sorcerer and not an entirely different "category" of magic. Of course, as others have pointed out, Vlad is our main source for this, and he can be dense about some things. Stacy From lisa at spindot.com Fri Jun 7 15:46:49 2002 From: lisa at spindot.com (Lisa Grant Coffin) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 18:46:49 -0400 Subject: New Lists? References: <17d.96b70d5.2a3290e8@aol.com> Message-ID: <00a801c20e75$3655a460$1401a8c0@Spencer> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 6:42 PM Subject: New Lists? > Actually, I think supplemental lists are a great idea, although perhaps what > we should do is just split off the RPG stuff, and leave the group reads here > on the main list? Of course, if all goes well, most of the RPG talk should > move to the message board on the website (once it gets created and such). > > You know, another option would be to create a message board with sub-areas > for different things, then phase out the list(s) and then there wouldn't be > the problem of lots and lots of Email (doesn't bother me much, as I'm used to > vast amounts of Email). > > Stacy i agree with *not* phasing out the lists. i like the lists. perhaps a digest version of each of the three? 1. natterings 2. specific book group read 3. RPG's I'll bet the posts are going to be archived eventually anyhow, is this right? Lisa Grant Coffin, who is still looking forward to someone else's artisan to the Emporer of China silence-filler. From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Jun 7 15:45:33 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 17:45:33 -0500 Subject: Ahhhhh.....Jhereg In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607123521.00a64c50@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <22DF23F8.79BA8A82.0296E7C9@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020607123521.00a64c50@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <20020607224533.GB20595@infodancer.org> On Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 12:36:13PM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: > >Although I'd be curious just how big the giant ones are as well.... > They can carry away a normal man. Dragaeran, human, or both? -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20020607/5e991042/attachment.pgp From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Jun 7 16:00:21 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 19:00:21 -0400 Subject: New Lists? In-Reply-To: <163.edd77d4.2a32948e@aol.com> Message-ID: <582D5844-7A6A-11D6-8484-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Friday, June 7, 2002, at 06:58 PM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/7/2002 4:51:33 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > zizban at adelphia.net writes: > > > Like I said earlier, the RPG stuff should be > moved to the RPG web site entirely. > > > > LOL!!? The website has to be created first!? I'm fast, but not that > fast! > > Stacy What?? you slacker!! :-) -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Fri Jun 7 16:03:55 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 18:03:55 -0500 Subject: Teckla, Cawti, Book Covers, and Whatnot Message-ID: <3D013BDB.484CAA47@attbi.com> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: Teckla, Cawti, Book Covers, and Whatnot Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 16:20:16 -0500 From: Mia McDavid To: Melissa Fitzgerald References: <3.0.5.32.20020607104433.007c1ce0 at astound.net> Melissa wrote: > Her spouse was a hired killer--it doesn't get much worse than that. > With respect, Nuts! *SHE* was a hired killer once upon a time, remember??? She knew the deal going in. He didn't court her under any kind of false pretenses. Hell, *she* killed *him*, how's that for a "meet cute" beginning? Yes, of course, there are economic and political imbalances in the Empire (as in all mundane societies we've managed to construct to date) that beg for redress. Woo hoo for her that she's interested in redressing. What I *can't wait* for (hint, hint, Steve) is, what has she done with her Organization in South Adrilahnka?? I love it that that was Vlad's parting gift to her--a sustenance, a reproach, and a political conundrum all at once. Did she just shut it down and put all those people (and herself) out of work? Did give it, or sell it, to someone? Did someone who wanted it worse than she *take* it? (I doubt it!) Can't wait to see! Write faster! Mia From corwin at mpls.cx Fri Jun 7 16:17:47 2002 From: corwin at mpls.cx (corwin at mpls.cx) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 18:17:47 -0500 Subject: Another Turn of Subject In-Reply-To: <01KIMKDHI75S0000A5@chud.net> References: "Your message dated Thu, 06 Jun 2002 22:14:32 -0700" <5.1.0.14.0.20020606221316.00a42d80@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <3D00F8CB.9360.91EB8EC@localhost> On 6 Jun 2002 at 22:21, books at bofh.com wrote: > >At 11:46 PM 6/6/2002 -0500, Matthew Hunter wrote: > >>On Thu, Jun 06, 2002 at 09:00:04PM -0700, Steven Brust > >> wrote: > >> > At 10:16 PM 6/6/2002 -0400, Beldarrin at aol.com wrote: > >> > > Actually, it did make perfect > >> > > (To this point, I'd say "Athyra" is my > >> > >favorite of the Taltos novels. > >> > That's nice to hear. Thanks. Generally, it my second Most Hated, after > >> > TECKLA. > >> > >>Why do you dislike TECKLA? > > >*I* don't dislike TECKLA. I'm actually rather proud of how that one came > >out. It's the one that I hear the complaints about, though. > > The thing that always got me is that _Jhereg_ seemed more Yendi'ish > that _Yendi_. Right, I get that too, but consider this: _Yendi_ and _Jhereg_ are both from the point of view of a very young man, even from the point of view of his own race. Given the lifespan of Vlad's race, the difference in Vlad's age is probably signifigent to his understanding, unravveling and spinning of the complex intregues with which he is involved in either story. I think, had _Yendi_ been written by Sethra, or even The Sourceress in Green, threads of the plots described therein which Vlad doesn't see at the time (and which he might never Grok) would probably have been visable to her, and therefor, us. Says me- who may be wrong. From singram at videotron.ca Fri Jun 7 16:17:53 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 19:17:53 -0400 Subject: "The time has come, the Walrus said References: <07BE9B0F-7A40-11D6-A1FF-003065C447F2@mac.com> <07BE9B0F-7A40-11D6-A1FF-003065C447F2@mac.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020607130433.00a65780@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <00bd01c20e79$8d079030$17ecca18@ingram> > You keep forgetting that Vlad is an idiot. You *levitate* to the floating > castles. (There will be more of this in Viscount). Phew! I thought you had written yourself into a corner on that one. From dragaera at juima.org Fri Jun 7 16:52:25 2002 From: dragaera at juima.org (Sander) Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 01:52:25 +0200 Subject: Another Turn of Subject References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605172344.00a5b140@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <3D014739.4060103@juima.org> Steven Brust wrote: > At 10:16 PM 6/6/2002 -0400, Beldarrin at aol.com wrote: >> Actually, it did make perfect >> (To this point, I'd say "Athyra" is my >>favorite of the Taltos novels. > > That's nice to hear. Thanks. Generally, it my second Most Hated, after > TECKLA. For me Athyra is also my favorite Taltos novel. It was the first book (in the order I read them, which has nothing to do with either chonological or publishing order) that showed me there was quite a bit more depth to your books than I'd noticed up to that point. Without Athyra I'd never have tried reading the Phoenix Guards, and that would have been a terrible loss. (Though really, when talking about the Phoenux Guards, I think it's completely unfair for books to show that an author had more fun writing them than a reader can ever have reading them.) :) May you always find shade and water, Sander From dragaera at juima.org Fri Jun 7 17:09:18 2002 From: dragaera at juima.org (Sander) Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 02:09:18 +0200 Subject: META: Quoting styles Michael S. Schiffer wrote: > It might not be a bad idea for the list to settle on a standard for quoting > previous articles. (Such a standard could even go into an FAQ for the > list, as and when.) I personally like Usenet-style quoting, where > responses immediately follow the points they're responding to and > extraneous material gets snipped. (I think it makes for a more > conversational style.) But many people like the "quote the whole thing and > insert responses at the top" (which some e-mail programs encourage). At > this point, I think a majority of people here are doing the first, but a > noticeable minority are doing the second. I think exchanges go more > smoothly if everyone (or at least most people) are following the same > standard-- otherwise, in long exchanges, you wind up with posts where you > can't tell who said what, or in what order. Just a thought. > > Mike > > References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605172344.00a5b140@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <3D014B2E.4020403@juima.org> Michael S. Schiffer wrote: > It might not be a bad idea for the list to settle on a standard for quoting > previous articles. (Such a standard could even go into an FAQ for the > list, as and when.) I personally like Usenet-style quoting, where > responses immediately follow the points they're responding to and > extraneous material gets snipped. (I think it makes for a more > conversational style.) I completely agree. Particularly the snipping. If it's not directly relevant to what you're replying to, _please_ don't include it in your reply. Reading the list takes quite enough time as it is already, without having to scan over irrelevant material and being forced to scroll down just for reading a few lines of reply. May you always find shade and water, Sander From dragaera at juima.org Fri Jun 7 17:15:38 2002 From: dragaera at juima.org (Sander) Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 02:15:38 +0200 Subject: ACK! - Re: META: Quoting styles References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605172344.00a5b140@pop3.lvcm.com> <3D014B2E.4020403@juima.org> Message-ID: <3D014CAA.7090808@juima.org> *slaps his Mozilla* Okay, I don't know what the hell I just did, but that huge subject definitely was not intended. My apologies. And that on a message about how to behave on the list. *scurries of in shame* Sander From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Jun 7 17:15:02 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 20:15:02 -0400 Subject: ACK! - Re: META: Quoting styles In-Reply-To: <3D014CAA.7090808@juima.org> Message-ID: On Friday, June 7, 2002, at 08:15 PM, Sander wrote: > *slaps his Mozilla* Okay, I don't know what the hell I just did, but > that huge subject definitely was not intended. My apologies. > And that on a message about how to behave on the list. *scurries of in > shame* > > Sander > > We forgive you, this time :-) -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From dragaera at juima.org Fri Jun 7 17:37:00 2002 From: dragaera at juima.org (Sander) Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 02:37:00 +0200 Subject: New Lists? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605172344.00a5b140@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <3D0151AC.7030402@juima.org> Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 06:42:48PM -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >> You know, another option would be to create a message board with sub-areas >> for different things, then phase out the list(s) and then there wouldn't be >> the problem of lots and lots of Email (doesn't bother me much, as I'm used to >> vast amounts of Email). > > This has the side effect of effectively preventing me (and > others, I'm sure) from participating. I can't stand web-based > message boards, while I live and breathe mailing lists. Although I think we should let the list run just a wee bit longer before already talking about phasing it out :) (particularly if we're indeed going to split off the group read and the RPG, which I think would be a very good idea) - I do wonder about what exactly you can't stand about web-based message boards. I mean, sure there are some abominations out there (ezBoard anyone?), but if you set a board to just do plain text and allow none of those annoying graphics, it does offer some distinct advantages over mailing lists. Particularly in that you _go_ to read the conversations, rather than that the conversations _come_ to you. So if you see a topic of a few thousand characters, you can simply choose not to open it, rather than get it delivered to your inbox without having anything to say about it. :) May you always find shade and water, Sander From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jun 7 17:48:33 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 20:48:33 EDT Subject: New Lists? Message-ID: <8.2767974f.2a32ae61@aol.com> In a message dated 6/7/2002 6:34:10 PM Mountain Daylight Time, dragaera at juima.org writes: > Although I think we should let the list run just a wee bit longer before > already talking about phasing it out :) Eh, I like both, so either works for me. I wasn't actually voting for getting rid of the listserv, it was only a thought to toss out since we have already gotten 2 or 3 people talking about the mail volume. :) (particularly if we're indeed> going to split off the group read and the RPG, > which I think would be a > very good idea) - I do wonder about what exactly you can't stand about > web-based message boards. I mean, sure there are some abominations out > there (ezBoard anyone?), but if you set a board to just do plain text > and allow none of those annoying graphics, it does offer some distinct > advantages over mailing lists. Particularly in that you _go_ to read the > conversations, rather than that the conversations _come_ to you. I do hope that once we get the RPG website up with a message board, those of you who don't normally traffic message boards will at least traffic that one? Especially given that you're interested in said RPG? I'm going to try and have -something- up and running this weekend (I should not be saying this because as soon as I do, some emergency will come up). There won't be a heck of a lot of content on it yet, but maybe I can create a link there to a freebie message board so we can start chatting there. That will get the RPG stuff off of the list. I apologize that it's such a bother to everyone. It'll be moved soon, I promise! Stacy From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Jun 7 17:46:42 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 19:46:42 -0500 Subject: New Lists? In-Reply-To: <3D0151AC.7030402@juima.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605172344.00a5b140@pop3.lvcm.com> <3D0151AC.7030402@juima.org> Message-ID: <20020608004642.GD20595@infodancer.org> On Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 02:37:00AM +0200, Sander wrote: > Matthew Hunter wrote: > > This has the side effect of effectively preventing me (and > > others, I'm sure) from participating. I can't stand web-based > > message boards, while I live and breathe mailing lists. > Although I think we should let the list run just a wee bit longer before > already talking about phasing it out :) (particularly if we're indeed > going to split off the group read and the RPG, which I think would be a > very good idea) - I do wonder about what exactly you can't stand about > web-based message boards. I mean, sure there are some abominations out > there (ezBoard anyone?), but if you set a board to just do plain text > and allow none of those annoying graphics, it does offer some distinct > advantages over mailing lists. Particularly in that you _go_ to read the I can't read them over a text link. There is no way to follow a developing thread while only reading the new posts. Reading each message invariably either requires 1 click/message or requires loading gobs of messages at once Reading long threads is horrible. The posting interface invariably sucks. Server-based web discussions means I can't read when the server is down, or when I'm downloading the entire Debian distribution to my local mirror. Mailing lists are push, not pull, thus not requiring me to go out and read them -- they come to me. Thus they queue up when I don't have time. Shall I continue? -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20020607/d58c22e3/attachment.pgp From nthuleen at students.wisc.edu Fri Jun 7 17:54:18 2002 From: nthuleen at students.wisc.edu (Nancy Thuleen) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 19:54:18 -0500 Subject: New Lists? In-Reply-To: <3D0151AC.7030402@juima.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605172344.00a5b140@pop3.lvcm.com> <3D0151AC.7030402@juima.org> Message-ID: At 2:37 +0200 08.6.2002, Sander wrote: > I do wonder about what exactly you can't stand about > web-based message boards. This wasn't addressed to me, but I'd have to say I really don't like web-based message boards, either. In my case, it's purely because I don't bother to go there every hour to check if there's a subject I want to contribute to. Instead, I forget about it for a day or two (or more, in many cases), and when I finally do check, any threads I might have been interested in are long dormant. I find email lists to be a lot more vibrant and immediate, which adds to the appeal, but does increase traffic (just look at the exponential volume of this list!), so I suppose it's a trade off. I also don't like, on web boards, the long load times and switching to a different page for every message or topic -- plus I find I get to know people better in content-heavy email, rather than when they have lots of spiffy smiley graphics and URL links to distract from their messages. Perhaps I've just had bad experiences with web boards, but I doubt it. With email, at least I know what people are talking about right away, and can immediately participate if I so desire. I really, really prefer the email list over a web-based board, though I'd have no problem with something like the Yahoo! groups board, where mail can be either delivered or not, depending on your settings, and all messages are available on the web no matter what. But that's kind of what we already have, isn't it? I mean, there is a nice archive at dragaera.info, so the only thing missing is posting via the web rather than email. And I'm all for splitting off the RPG discussions (which I personally am not interested in, but realize this is the perfect place for such a discussion), and if we want to form a separate reading list, that's fine, too. But I can't see why we would need to switch to a different (e.g. web-based) format when this one has hardly gotten off the ground yet. :) - Nancy. From rachael at daedala.net Fri Jun 7 18:18:33 2002 From: rachael at daedala.net (Rachael Lininger) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 20:18:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Teckla, etc In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607173334.0305e2c0@mail.attbi.com> Message-ID: On Jun 7, Michael S. Schiffer said: >At 05:34 PM 6/7/2002 -0500, Rachael Lininger wrote: [requiring godlike strength to change the Cycle?] >>Consider who he was, though: _even_ _if_ that were the case for >>Dragaera, Vlad might be able to do that sort of thing. > >Cawti, too-- *if* she'd start to think about the problem as something other >than simply political and economic. Consider that there's at least strong >circumstantial evidence that Devera is a god. Devera has only one known >divine ancestor, her grandmother. Now, who else do we know who's the >granddaughter of a being of that order (keeping in mind that the difference >between gods and demons is one of degree, not kind)? Dear Devera, I'm currently trying to think of ways to overthrow the Dragaeran Empire.... -- Rachael From the Dilbert Newsletter: Lininger "You should talk to her. rachael@ She is a minefield of information." daedala.net From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Jun 7 18:04:44 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 20:04:44 -0500 Subject: New Lists? In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605172344.00a5b140@pop3.lvcm.com> <3D0151AC.7030402@juima.org> Message-ID: <20020608010444.GE20595@infodancer.org> On Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 07:54:18PM -0500, Nancy Thuleen wrote: > And I'm all for splitting off the RPG discussions (which I > personally am not interested in, but realize this is the > perfect place for such a discussion), and if we want to form a > separate reading list, that's fine, too. But I can't see why > we would need to switch to a different (e.g. web-based) format > when this one has hardly gotten off the ground yet. :) Because RPG-discussions of fictional worlds inevitably end up flooding their environment with in-character quipping and extended arguments about minor technical points in the rules system, I think that an RPG-oriented list is a good idea. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20020607/ac57cffe/attachment.pgp From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Jun 7 18:12:17 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 21:12:17 -0400 Subject: New Lists? In-Reply-To: <20020608010444.GE20595@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Friday, June 7, 2002, at 09:04 PM, Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 07:54:18PM -0500, Nancy Thuleen > wrote: >> And I'm all for splitting off the RPG discussions (which I >> personally am not interested in, but realize this is the >> perfect place for such a discussion), and if we want to form a >> separate reading list, that's fine, too. But I can't see why >> we would need to switch to a different (e.g. web-based) format >> when this one has hardly gotten off the ground yet. :) > > Because RPG-discussions of fictional worlds inevitably end up > flooding their environment with in-character quipping and > extended arguments about minor technical points in the rules > system, I think that an RPG-oriented list is a good idea. > > -- > Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) > > I think a separate list is the way to go now. I don't mind web based boards but I'd like to be able to keep up without having to check the boards every hour. -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jun 7 18:43:34 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 18:43:34 -0700 Subject: META: Quoting styles In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607142754.02fa8648@mail.attbi.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607184239.00a4c460@pop3.lvcm.com> At 02:34 PM 6/7/2002 -0500, Michael S. Schiffer wrote: >It might not be a bad idea for the list to settle on a standard for >quoting previous articles. My preference should be obvious from context. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jun 7 18:47:18 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 18:47:18 -0700 Subject: "The time has come, the Walrus said In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607184446.00a62070@pop3.lvcm.com> At 01:58 PM 6/7/2002 -0600, Anthony Tedjamulia wrote: > I've always been of the belief that magic must have a >set of rules for people to be able to write books about it, pass the >learning on to others, and master it. I believe that magic, in fiction, needs to be poetically precise and literarily elegant. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jun 7 18:49:34 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 18:49:34 -0700 Subject: "The time has come, the Walrus said In-Reply-To: References: <28500956.1EFD1ABF.0296E7C9@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020607124121.00a61150@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607184843.00a62e30@pop3.lvcm.com> At 03:09 PM 6/7/2002 -0500, Chris Bisanar wrote: >I agree entirely... if you turn magic into some kind of pseudoscience with >clear, described rules, it ceases to be magical. Yep. >While I was reading Issola, I was afraid maybe the your rules for magic were >getting a little to clear for my taste, but there were so many gray areas in >my last e-mail that I've obviously got lots left to figure out. :) Well, I try very hard to avoid answering any question without raising three more. :-) From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Jun 7 18:51:00 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 21:51:00 -0400 Subject: "The time has come, the Walrus said In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607184446.00a62070@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <2EA701C0-7A82-11D6-8869-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Friday, June 7, 2002, at 09:47 PM, Steven Brust wrote: > At 01:58 PM 6/7/2002 -0600, Anthony Tedjamulia wrote: >> I've always been of the belief that magic must have a >> set of rules for people to be able to write books about it, pass the >> learning on to others, and master it. > > I believe that magic, in fiction, needs to be poetically precise and > literarily elegant. > > > There are authors who believe magic should have rules. I'm of the camp that believes magic should be taught master to apprentice, no books. -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jun 7 18:51:06 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 18:51:06 -0700 Subject: "The time has come, the Walrus said In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607152651.02ef6488@mail.attbi.com> References: <28500956.1EFD1ABF.0296E7C9@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020607124121.00a61150@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607185017.00a4cc50@pop3.lvcm.com> At 03:34 PM 6/7/2002 -0500, Michael S. Schiffer wrote: >My impression, actually, had been that sorcery was amenable to that sort >of systemization, but that witchcraft was not (or at least hadn't yet been). You may be interested to know that Paarfi agrees with you. *I* don't, but Paarfi does, and he might know more than I do. I mean, after all, he lives there. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jun 7 19:00:12 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 19:00:12 -0700 Subject: Teckla, etc In-Reply-To: <20020607213200.3574.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607113753.02ea9198@mail.attbi.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607185859.00a25aa0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 02:32 PM 6/7/2002 -0700, Gregory Rapawy wrote: >Many historical and current cultures and regimes have >made and now make extravagant claims about how their >particular structure is (1) an inevitable consequence >of physical reality or other natural law; (2) too >well-entrenched ever to be shaken; (3) supported by >overwhelming force too great to exist. At any given >point in time these claims may appear from an internal >(or even a contemporaneous external) perspective to be >true, and then may either suddenly or gradually come >to be not true. Heh. Give me a week and I'll make a Marxist out of you. :-) From frank at exit.com Fri Jun 7 19:00:22 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 19:00:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: META: Quoting styles In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607184239.00a4c460@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <200206080200.g5820MWG085628@realtime.exit.com> Steven Brust wrote: > At 02:34 PM 6/7/2002 -0500, Michael S. Schiffer wrote: > >It might not be a bad idea for the list to settle on a standard for > >quoting previous articles. > My preference should be obvious from context. And there we have it, our standard! :-) -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jun 7 19:03:09 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 19:03:09 -0700 Subject: Teckla, etc In-Reply-To: <21CA7AA7-7A60-11D6-A1C2-00039386187A@adelphia.net> References: <20020607213200.3574.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607190123.00a67bc0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 05:47 PM 6/7/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: >One of the first things you learn in lit class in college is that >sometimes you have to decide if the narrator is trustworthy or not. I >really like Vlad but I don't entirely trust him sometimes, I know there >are things he's not saying, glossing over or outright lying about. Teckla >is one of those books where you have decide how truthful he really is being. For the record, while I confess that there are times that Vlad is less than completely truthful, the rest of the time he's full of shit. :-) From frank at exit.com Fri Jun 7 19:04:28 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 19:04:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Teckla, etc In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607185859.00a25aa0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <200206080204.g5824SB0087241@realtime.exit.com> Steven Brust wrote: > At 02:32 PM 6/7/2002 -0700, Gregory Rapawy wrote: > >[Something.] > Heh. Give me a week and I'll make a Marxist out of you. :-) By any chance, have you read any of Ken Macleod's novels, particularly _The Star Fraction_ or _The Stone Canal_? One of many aspects to those books involves what he seems to describe as a Marxist-Trotskyist utopia. I would be willing to bet a small amount of money that he's a Trotskyist himself. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Jun 7 19:05:39 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 22:05:39 -0400 Subject: Teckla, etc In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607190123.00a67bc0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <3AB9CB1A-7A84-11D6-8869-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Friday, June 7, 2002, at 10:03 PM, Steven Brust wrote: > At 05:47 PM 6/7/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: > >> One of the first things you learn in lit class in college is that >> sometimes you have to decide if the narrator is trustworthy or not. I >> really like Vlad but I don't entirely trust him sometimes, I know >> there are things he's not saying, glossing over or outright lying >> about. Teckla is one of those books where you have decide how >> truthful he really is being. > > For the record, while I confess that there are times that Vlad is less > than completely truthful, the rest of the time he's full of shit. :-) > LOL > -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jun 7 19:08:36 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 19:08:36 -0700 Subject: "The time has come, the Walrus said In-Reply-To: <120.1150eb4f.2a328f16@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607190708.00a92ec0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 06:35 PM 6/7/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 6/7/2002 1:55:02 PM Mountain Daylight Time, >skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > > > > Well, you left out wizardry. > > >Now you've gone and muddied the waters even more. I thought that the use of >the word wizard was simply used as a term for those who are really, really, >REALLY good at sorcery??? Can you give us some idea, then, of what wizardry >is? There is some discussion of this in Viscount, and it is as reliable an acount as you can get from Paarfi. ("You know my Uncle, he's as honest as me. And I'm as honest as a Denver man can be.") From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jun 7 19:16:12 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 19:16:12 -0700 Subject: New Lists? In-Reply-To: <8.2767974f.2a32ae61@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607191331.00a97760@pop3.lvcm.com> At 08:48 PM 6/7/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 6/7/2002 6:34:10 PM Mountain Daylight Time, >dragaera at juima.org writes: > > > > Although I think we should let the list run just a wee bit longer before > > already talking about phasing it out :) > >Eh, I like both, so either works for me. I wasn't actually voting for >getting rid of the listserv, it was only a thought to toss out since we have >already gotten 2 or 3 people talking about the mail volume. :) I could see splitting the list into, say, four groups: 1) General discussion 2) RPGs 3) Readings 4) Cute girls who want to throw themselves at the author. Hmmmm. I could see splitting the list into, say, three groups. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jun 7 19:19:37 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 19:19:37 -0700 Subject: Another Turn of Subject In-Reply-To: <3D014739.4060103@juima.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605172344.00a5b140@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607191917.00a9aa10@pop3.lvcm.com> At 01:52 AM 6/8/2002 +0200, Sander wrote: >(Though really, when talking about the Phoenux Guards, I think it's >completely unfair for books to show that an author had more fun writing >them than a reader can ever have reading them.) :) You know, I really do feel a bit guilty about that. From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Jun 7 19:20:10 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 22:20:10 -0400 Subject: New Lists? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607191331.00a97760@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <41B3C918-7A86-11D6-8869-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Friday, June 7, 2002, at 10:16 PM, Steven Brust wrote: > At 08:48 PM 6/7/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >> In a message dated 6/7/2002 6:34:10 PM Mountain Daylight Time, >> dragaera at juima.org writes: >> >> >> > Although I think we should let the list run just a wee bit longer >> before >> > already talking about phasing it out :) >> >> Eh, I like both, so either works for me. I wasn't actually voting for >> getting rid of the listserv, it was only a thought to toss out since >> we have >> already gotten 2 or 3 people talking about the mail volume. :) > > I could see splitting the list into, say, four groups: > 1) General discussion > 2) RPGs > 3) Readings > 4) Cute girls who want to throw themselves at the author. > > Hmmmm. > > I could see splitting the list into, say, three groups. > > > I like those four categories. Make the fourth "author's desperate grab at attention" Yes, you are right. Three groups. -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Jun 7 19:20:41 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 22:20:41 -0400 Subject: Another Turn of Subject In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607191917.00a9aa10@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5483C53E-7A86-11D6-8869-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Friday, June 7, 2002, at 10:19 PM, Steven Brust wrote: > At 01:52 AM 6/8/2002 +0200, Sander wrote: > >> (Though really, when talking about the Phoenux Guards, I think it's >> completely unfair for books to show that an author had more fun writing >> them than a reader can ever have reading them.) :) > > You know, I really do feel a bit guilty about that. > > > I'm sure you do :-) -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Jun 7 19:19:48 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 21:19:48 -0500 Subject: New Lists? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607191331.00a97760@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <8.2767974f.2a32ae61@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020607191331.00a97760@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <20020608021948.GF20595@infodancer.org> On Fri, Jun 07, 2002 at 07:16:12PM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: > I could see splitting the list into, say, four groups: > 1) General discussion > 2) RPGs > 3) Readings > 4) Cute girls who want to throw themselves at the author. > I could see splitting the list into, say, three groups. So, drop the RPG list then? -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20020607/c8d53f4e/attachment.pgp From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Jun 7 19:23:08 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 22:23:08 -0400 Subject: Alternatives to this list? Message-ID: <060FC43C.1C1BDF76.00048EA6@aol.com> I can only read email through websites, so everything that people don't like about web boards applies to me and email lists. It's taken me all afternoon and evening just to catch up with this list (through a dailup connection while downloading a bunch of stuff in the background). I really like newsgroups for discussions like this; does anybody know what resources are needed for a non-propagating newsserver like sff.net has? For that matter, news.sff.net has personal newsgroups for a bunch of authors (and some editors and possibly others) so Brust could do try that (though it looks like he'd have to pay some sort of membership fee or something). But that would be downright ideal for me, personally. --KG From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jun 7 19:24:42 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 19:24:42 -0700 Subject: Teckla, etc In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607173334.0305e2c0@mail.attbi.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607192415.00a69c40@pop3.lvcm.com> At 08:18 PM 6/7/2002 -0500, Rachael Lininger wrote: >I'm currently trying to think of ways to overthrow the Dragaeran >Empire.... ROFL! And you weren't even there! Who's been telling tales? From pendragon at vaxer.net Fri Jun 7 19:26:47 2002 From: pendragon at vaxer.net (A Knight in White Satin) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 22:26:47 -0400 Subject: Ahhhhh.....Jhereg In-Reply-To: <13e.f7be452.2a328fb0@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20020607222252.02290458@maple.vaxer.net> At 06:37 PM 6/7/2002, Stacy wrote: >So a four-limbed, Cthulhu-looking creature. Meep! Run away! Run away! A two-eyed, four-limbed, flying Cthulhu-looking creature? Sure looks strange to me! Pendoug --- "We're at an awkward point in USian history-- it's too late to work within the system, but it's too soon to start shooting the bastards." From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Jun 7 19:27:10 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 22:27:10 -0400 Subject: Teckla, etc In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607192415.00a69c40@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <3C6299BC-7A87-11D6-8869-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Friday, June 7, 2002, at 10:24 PM, Steven Brust wrote: > At 08:18 PM 6/7/2002 -0500, Rachael Lininger wrote: > >> I'm currently trying to think of ways to overthrow the Dragaeran >> Empire.... > > ROFL! And you weren't even there! Who's been telling tales? > > > How about just getting rid of the pink smog? Or are Dragaerans easily sunburned? -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jun 7 19:29:30 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 19:29:30 -0700 Subject: Teckla, etc In-Reply-To: <200206080204.g5824SB0087241@realtime.exit.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607185859.00a25aa0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607192845.00a8aec0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 07:04 PM 6/7/2002 -0700, Frank Mayhar wrote: >Steven Brust wrote: > > At 02:32 PM 6/7/2002 -0700, Gregory Rapawy wrote: > > >[Something.] > > Heh. Give me a week and I'll make a Marxist out of you. :-) > >By any chance, have you read any of Ken Macleod's novels, particularly >_The Star Fraction_ or _The Stone Canal_? Yep. I think he's excellent. > One of many aspects to those >books involves what he seems to describe as a Marxist-Trotskyist utopia. >I would be willing to bet a small amount of money that he's a Trotskyist >himself. I think he'd describe himself that way. I'd call him a revisionist, but I'd be smiling a bit when I said it. In fact, I did and I was, now that I think of it. From books at bofh.com Fri Jun 7 20:35:26 2002 From: books at bofh.com (books at bofh.com) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 20:35:26 -0700 (MST) Subject: Teckla, etc In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 07 Jun 2002 19:04:28 -0700 (PDT)" <200206080204.g5824SB0087241@realtime.exit.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607185859.00a25aa0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <01KINUXBDMX20000A5@chud.net> >Steven Brust wrote: >> At 02:32 PM 6/7/2002 -0700, Gregory Rapawy wrote: >> >[Something.] >> Heh. Give me a week and I'll make a Marxist out of you. :-) >By any chance, have you read any of Ken Macleod's novels, particularly >_The Star Fraction_ or _The Stone Canal_? One of many aspects to those >books involves what he seems to describe as a Marxist-Trotskyist utopia. >I would be willing to bet a small amount of money that he's a Trotskyist >himself. I just finished _Dark Light_, and it was definitley a Marxist/Socialist vs. Democracy vs. a weird status quo. I would agree with your assumption only because people who are Trotskyist's don't know what one is and would never write about it. [1] The novel was decent enough, but he's no Brust. :) -Jot [1] Like me. Not a clue. Time to google to buy a clue. :) From Beldarrin at aol.com Fri Jun 7 21:25:18 2002 From: Beldarrin at aol.com (Beldarrin at aol.com) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 00:25:18 EDT Subject: New Lists? Message-ID: <1ab.35b26f7.2a32e12e@aol.com> I'm going to have to agree with pretty much everyone else that splitting up the list is a swell idea. I check my e-mail probably two or three times a day, and there's always such a large volume of e-mails now. Don't get me wrong, this is great because I'm forever whining about not getting enough e-mails, and complaining that I don't get enough e-mails and no one loves me. However, there are so many e-mails it takes up my entire lunch break to get through them all. So I give it the thumbs up. But then, that's just me... ::chuckles:: How about recreating the fourth item so it reads something like "Icky-pooh girls who want to throw themselves at the author." Okay, so I'm just be facitious. (Oh my, my husband would really choke me if he read this. Good thing he hasn't picked up any of Steve's books yet; otherwise, I'd be subject to sensoring myself a goodly bit. ) So, err... Yes, splitting the list sounds peachy. ~ Steph From mporter at rogers.com Fri Jun 7 21:29:38 2002 From: mporter at rogers.com (Mark Porter) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 00:29:38 -0400 Subject: Top-Posting Yendi seeks Teckla Artist Message-ID: <009201c20ea5$19d9ebe0$59a97218@slnt.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Basically, this e-mail is a bunch of ridiculous comments and questions that I thought I would combine into one. So let's get down to business. First, just finished reading Yendi, and loved it muchly. It has, in fact, my second favourite line ever in one of Steve's books. "How many Yendi does it take to sharpen a sword? Three. One to sharpen the sword, and one to confuse the issue." I laughed for a good period of time. Unfortunately, I was on a bus heading to work, so I got several odd looks. Also, the Monty Python reference when Morrolan and Vlad were discussing their upcoming confrontation with the Sorceress in Green was great too. My favourite line from one of Steve's books is I believe from 'The Gypsy', which is just pure evil. "Why are you doing this?" "Because I can." I have a thing for evil. I'm not evil myself, but you can always appreciate and respect a well-written, evil character. Anyways, Teckla is next, so I get to see what all of you have been so up-in-arms about over the last few days! ;-) But now for the questions, of which there are two. The first is regarding 'Paths of the Dead'. I'm not sure if this has been answered already, but is this a book entirely on it's own, or is it the first volume of Viscount? The second question is about art. I'm wondering if there is any fanart or even official art for any of the Vlad novels or the Khaavren Romances? I heard someone mention on this list an illustrated version of Jhereg, but I can't find it online for the life of me. I just think it would be nice to see some of our favourite characters 'in the flesh', as it were. I mean, I know /I'm/ curious about what all the fuss was about when Aliera came to court in Five Hundred Year After. ;-) _________________________________ Mark Porter If He Can't Do It, Most Anyone Else Can From singram at videotron.ca Fri Jun 7 22:09:41 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 01:09:41 -0400 Subject: Teckla, Cawti, Book Covers, and Whatnot References: <3D013BDB.484CAA47@attbi.com> Message-ID: <021001c20eaa$b2594820$17ecca18@ingram> Just my own two cents... Even in _Yendi_ Cawti and Vlad fought over his attitude towards the suffering of the Easterners. I think her attitude was exacerbated by the fact that, ... well... seems to me she's idle most of the time. When Cawti was *working* it seems she only worked one expensive contract at a time, thus giving her lots of leisure time. After Cawti married Vlad, the situation became even worse, aside from helping with the odd crisis that Vlad was involved in, she had little to do, even her former partner had retired. Vlad, on the other hand, was immersed in his business, interacting with the grubby world on a daily basis. On one hand, it's was easy for Vlad to view the organisation and the empire as insurmountable obstacles, he had to deal with aspects of it on a daily basis. On the other, Cawti's lack of immersion in the real world, and her abundant free time, made her ripe to become a disciple of the people's movement. Let's face it, she was/is a talented woman with too much time on her hands. Now, as Mia mentioned, the South Adrilanka territory is quite the quandary for Cawti: if she does nothing with it, the Organization will take it away >from her - they want their income. If she shuts down certain aspects of the business, ie: prostitution and gambling, someone else will provide the Johns and gamblers with their fix. Perhaps a Teckla organisation will form within South Adrilanka to provide the services Cawti is too principled to provide? I'm sure the Jhereg would love that. Assuming Vlad is now returning to Adrilanka, I wonder if he'll have obtained the perspective necessary to join Cawti in her fight... and now that Cawti is embroiled in the day-to-day struggles of running an area, I wonder if _she_ will still have the stomach for her fight. -Scott Ingram ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mia McDavid" To: Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 7:03 PM Subject: Re: Teckla, Cawti, Book Covers, and Whatnot > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: Teckla, Cawti, Book Covers, and Whatnot > Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 16:20:16 -0500 > From: Mia McDavid > To: Melissa Fitzgerald > References: <3.0.5.32.20020607104433.007c1ce0 at astound.net> > > Melissa wrote: > > > > Her spouse was a hired killer--it doesn't get much worse than that. > > > With respect, Nuts! *SHE* was a hired killer once upon a time, > remember??? She knew the deal going in. He didn't court her under any > kind of false pretenses. Hell, *she* killed *him*, how's that for a > "meet cute" beginning? > > Yes, of course, there are economic and political imbalances in the > Empire (as in all mundane societies we've managed to construct to date) > that beg for redress. Woo hoo for her that she's interested in > redressing. > > What I *can't wait* for (hint, hint, Steve) is, what has she done with > her Organization in South Adrilahnka?? I love it that that was Vlad's > parting gift to her--a sustenance, a reproach, and a political conundrum > all at once. Did she just shut it down and put all those people (and > herself) out of work? Did give it, or sell it, to someone? Did someone > who wanted it worse than she *take* it? (I doubt it!) Can't wait to > see! > > Write faster! > > Mia From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jun 7 22:54:42 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 22:54:42 -0700 Subject: Top-Posting Yendi seeks Teckla Artist In-Reply-To: <009201c20ea5$19d9ebe0$59a97218@slnt.phub.net.cable.rogers. com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607225352.00a66690@pop3.lvcm.com> At 12:29 AM 6/8/2002 -0400, Mark Porter wrote: >But now for the questions, of which there are two. The first is regarding >'Paths of the Dead'. I'm not sure if this has been answered already, but >is this a book entirely on it's own, or is it the first volume of Viscount? It's the first volume of Viscount. >The second question is about art. I'm wondering if there is any fanart or >even official art for any of the Vlad novels or the Khaavren Romances? Not that I'm aware of. From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jun 7 23:10:22 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 02:10:22 EDT Subject: Night Owls Message-ID: <7c.290de216.2a32f9ce@aol.com> -waves at Steve up north there where it's probably still freezing and snowing- Well, well. Looks like I'm not the only one who prefers the deep night hours to the day. :-) And I'll have everyone know that God wanted me to have Issola. Arriving in the mail today was my latest Media Play gift certificate for $20. Heh. Drove down there like a jhereg out of the Paths to get the book before they closed down. Stacy From dragaera at juima.org Sat Jun 8 03:21:17 2002 From: dragaera at juima.org (Sander) Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 12:21:17 +0200 Subject: Stupid Vlad? (was Re: "The time has come, the Walrus said) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605172344.00a5b140@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <3D01DA9D.7060209@juima.org> Steven Brust wrote: > You keep forgetting that Vlad is an idiot. This intrigues me. Do you really see Vlad as an idiot? I mean, sure, he's not a super intelligent Vance-like character with more intelligence and skills than a small town, and yes, sometimes when he's taking a stroll out on his own after making powerful enemies he's not thinking all that clearly and should have been a bit more practical, but despite that I still see Vlad as a pretty intelligent guy. And I don't believe this is just because of the bias of seeing things through his eyes. I usually have an instinctive loathing of less intelligent characters, but Vlad never made any warning bells ring. May you always find shade and water, Sander From bertowud at gator.net Sat Jun 8 06:35:29 2002 From: bertowud at gator.net (bertowud at gator.net) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 09:35:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Stupid Vlad? (was Re: 'The time has come, the Walrus said) In-Reply-To: <3D01DA9D.7060209@juima.org> References: <3D01DA9D.7060209@juima.org> Message-ID: <3038.24.136.62.181.1023543329.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> > Steven Brust wrote: >> You keep forgetting that Vlad is an idiot. > > This intrigues me. Do you really see Vlad as an idiot? > Sander I don't think of Vlad as an idiot, so much as a person who doesn't think ahead far enough. Robert From mgrindle at ameritech.net Sat Jun 8 07:14:38 2002 From: mgrindle at ameritech.net (Michael R. Grindle) Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 09:14:38 -0500 Subject: Stupid Vlad? (was Re: 'The time has come, the Walrus said) Message-ID: <3D02114E.9EE30C0B@ameritech.net> >From reading Vlad, and reading comments by Mr. Brust, the question keeps popping up in my mind; "How much of Vlad is autobiographical?" Not that I think Mr. Brust is a sorcerer-witch-Jhereg-assassin, but I wonder if Vlad's weaknesses are ones which Mr. Brust has, or fears he has? The incredible writing of Vlad and Cawti's breakup seems to me as though it MUST have come from a real life source...maybe I'm just not giving Mr. Brust credit enough as a writer though. And contrarily, it seems like Vlad's good actions, his noble actions, are ones which Mr. Brust would like to believe he would do in the same situation. Of course, this is all speculation as I don't know Mr. Brust. I just pester him with emails :) Maybe this mailing list will put a stop to that. Mike P.S. The 'Finland Station' was the train station in St. Petersburg that Lenin stopped at on his return(?) to Russia. From mgrindle at ameritech.net Sat Jun 8 07:24:44 2002 From: mgrindle at ameritech.net (Michael R. Grindle) Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 09:24:44 -0500 Subject: RPG Systems Message-ID: <3D0213AC.7DD99C51@ameritech.net> Do any of you RPGer's play any of the online games? Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot etc? I used to enjoy gaming, but now (at least until my 5 and 4 year-olds get a little bit older) have no one to game with, so have found the online ones to be a nearly-adequate substitute. If the sheer number of Brust-character names being used in the games is any indication, he's one hell of a popular writer :) From dan-tain_ishanti at attbi.com Sat Jun 8 07:35:55 2002 From: dan-tain_ishanti at attbi.com (Brad Crawford) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 07:35:55 -0700 Subject: RPG Systems References: <3D0213AC.7DD99C51@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <004201c20ef9$cc294ee0$8fd47e18@we.client2.attbi.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael R. Grindle" To: Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 7:24 AM Subject: RPG Systems > Do any of you RPGer's play any of the online games? Everquest, Dark Age > of Camelot etc? I used to enjoy gaming, but now (at least until my 5 > and 4 year-olds get a little bit older) have no one to game with, so > have found the online ones to be a nearly-adequate substitute. > > If the sheer number of Brust-character names being used in the games is > any indication, he's one hell of a popular writer :) > I've never even tried 'em. They scare me because they seem like gamer crack. I'm lucky though. I have a group of ten people to game with, and a waiting list of six or seven people that want to jump in. And amazingly enough, every one of them is cool and a good gamer. Ages 19 to 39. We even have an author (and son of author Orson Scott Card). Ten people can be a little unwieldy at times, but a lot of the fun of gaming is getting together with friends. That's another thing that has kept me away from MMRPG. I am interested in what Stacy has planned though. Even though I would prefer D&D3E because I'm lazy and don't want to learn a new system. lol Brad From zizban at adelphia.net Sat Jun 8 07:37:45 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 10:37:45 -0400 Subject: Top-Posting Yendi seeks Teckla Artist In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607225352.00a66690@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <4C28DB4E-7AED-11D6-84E6-00039386187A@adelphia.net> > >> The second question is about art. I'm wondering if there is any >> fanart or even official art for any of the Vlad novels or the Khaavren >> Romances? > > Not that I'm aware of. > Wasn't there a graphic comic book version of Jhereg in the late 80's? I remember seeing it. > > > -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From zizban at adelphia.net Sat Jun 8 07:39:40 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 10:39:40 -0400 Subject: RPG Systems In-Reply-To: <3D0213AC.7DD99C51@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <90B21D8C-7AED-11D6-84E6-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 10:24 AM, Michael R. Grindle wrote: > Do any of you RPGer's play any of the online games? Everquest, Dark Age > of Camelot etc? I used to enjoy gaming, but now (at least until my 5 > and 4 year-olds get a little bit older) have no one to game with, so > have found the online ones to be a nearly-adequate substitute. > > If the sheer number of Brust-character names being used in the games is > any indication, he's one hell of a popular writer :) > > I play Lineage and funny, I've never seen any Brust-related characters. Of course the vast majority of players are from Korea and Japan, which may explain things. -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sat Jun 8 08:13:47 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 08:13:47 -0700 Subject: Night Owls In-Reply-To: <7c.290de216.2a32f9ce@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020608081258.00a67c10@pop3.lvcm.com> At 02:10 AM 6/8/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >-waves at Steve up north there where it's probably still freezing and >snowing- Well, well. Looks like I'm not the only one who prefers the deep >night hours to the day. :-) Me, or a different Steve? Here it reached about 102 yesterday. But then, I'm not terribly far North any more. :-) Hope Is Ole doesn't disappoint. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sat Jun 8 08:14:52 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 08:14:52 -0700 Subject: Stupid Vlad? (was Re: "The time has come, the Walrus said) In-Reply-To: <3D01DA9D.7060209@juima.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605172344.00a5b140@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020608081401.00a6a5e0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 12:21 PM 6/8/2002 +0200, Sander wrote: >Steven Brust wrote: > > You keep forgetting that Vlad is an idiot. > >This intrigues me. Do you really see Vlad as an idiot? Really? No. He's pretty smart. But there are things he's incapable of seeing, and he's too arrogant about what he does know to consider that some of it might be wrong. From zizban at adelphia.net Sat Jun 8 08:16:48 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 11:16:48 -0400 Subject: Night Owls In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020608081258.00a67c10@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: On Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 11:13 AM, Steven Brust wrote: > At 02:10 AM 6/8/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >> -waves at Steve up north there where it's probably still freezing and >> snowing- Well, well. Looks like I'm not the only one who prefers the >> deep >> night hours to the day. :-) > > Me, or a different Steve? Here it reached about 102 yesterday. But > then, I'm not terribly far North any more. :-) > > Hope Is Ole doesn't disappoint. > Yes, Steve moved to Las Vegas. Probably got sick of watching glaciers cover his front yard every year -:) I have friends who live in North Las Vegas and I visited them two years ago. Nice place. My wife and I have considered moving there, > > -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sat Jun 8 08:17:09 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 08:17:09 -0700 Subject: Stupid Vlad? (was Re: 'The time has come, the Walrus said) In-Reply-To: <3D02114E.9EE30C0B@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020608081531.00a692b0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 09:14 AM 6/8/2002 -0500, Michael R. Grindle wrote: > From reading Vlad, and reading comments by Mr. Brust, the question keeps >popping up in my mind; "How much of Vlad is autobiographical?" Mostly the idiot part. Serious answer: I enjoy starting out with wish fullfillment, and then following the consequences. Vlad came from there, at least in part. >P.S. The 'Finland Station' was the train station in St. Petersburg that >Lenin stopped at on his return(?) to Russia. I believe that is correct. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sat Jun 8 08:18:24 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 08:18:24 -0700 Subject: Top-Posting Yendi seeks Teckla Artist In-Reply-To: <4C28DB4E-7AED-11D6-84E6-00039386187A@adelphia.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607225352.00a66690@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020608081810.00a6b4a0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:37 AM 6/8/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: >> >>>The second question is about art. I'm wondering if there is any fanart >>>or even official art for any of the Vlad novels or the Khaavren Romances? >> >>Not that I'm aware of. >Wasn't there a graphic comic book version of Jhereg in the late 80's? I >remember seeing it. Yes. From dan-tain_ishanti at attbi.com Sat Jun 8 08:18:11 2002 From: dan-tain_ishanti at attbi.com (Brad Crawford) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 08:18:11 -0700 Subject: Top-Posting Yendi seeks Teckla Artist References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607225352.00a66690@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020608081810.00a6b4a0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <006401c20eff$b43de600$8fd47e18@we.client2.attbi.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Brust" To: "Chris Turkel" ; Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 8:18 AM Subject: Re: Top-Posting Yendi seeks Teckla Artist > At 10:37 AM 6/8/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: > >> > >>>The second question is about art. I'm wondering if there is any fanart > >>>or even official art for any of the Vlad novels or the Khaavren Romances? > >> > >>Not that I'm aware of. > >Wasn't there a graphic comic book version of Jhereg in the late 80's? I > >remember seeing it. > > Yes. > > Darn Steve, that was helpful. LOL Do you remember the publisher or any other info on it? Brad From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sat Jun 8 09:10:43 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 09:10:43 -0700 Subject: Top-Posting Yendi seeks Teckla Artist In-Reply-To: <006401c20eff$b43de600$8fd47e18@we.client2.attbi.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607225352.00a66690@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020608081810.00a6b4a0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020608091021.00a44550@pop3.lvcm.com> At 08:18 AM 6/8/2002 -0700, Brad Crawford wrote: > > >Wasn't there a graphic comic book version of Jhereg in the late 80's? I > > >remember seeing it. > > > > Yes. > > > > >Darn Steve, that was helpful. LOL >Do you remember the publisher or any other info on it? I've mostly blocked it from my consciousness. From Starshadw at aol.com Sat Jun 8 09:21:45 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 12:21:45 -0400 Subject: Night Owls Message-ID: <1A82F340.0C8AEF61.0296E7C9@aol.com> In a message dated Sat, 8 Jun 2002 11:17:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, zizban at adelphia.net writes: > Yes, Steve moved to Las Vegas. Then we're practically neighbors! -waving again from Colorado- Stacy From mgrindle at ameritech.net Sat Jun 8 09:46:41 2002 From: mgrindle at ameritech.net (Michael R. Grindle) Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 11:46:41 -0500 Subject: Night Owls Message-ID: <3D0234F1.CE5C0B43@ameritech.net> Moved to Vegas? That explains all the poker playing talk. I have only been to Las Vegas once, but had a truly memorable time. Of course, since reading Powers' "Last Call", Las Vegas holds an odd fascination for me. I have a couple more questions for Mr. Brust. Are there any authors out there who you feel are great, but are relatively unknown? The kinds of writers you want to shake everyone and say "Hey! Read this person's work! It's great! They should be best-sellers instead of crap like Terry Goodkind!" And, are there ever times when your family or friends say to you, either about a whole work or parts of a work, "I didn't really like that." or "That's pretty crappy, Steven." or any negative criticism? Is there any work that you thought was simply some of the best you've ever done, and yet other people say 'eh, it was ok' or worse? Thanks again for being so responsive to your fans, I don't know if there are any authors whom you would have felt tongue-tied around, or in awe of, but its nice to be able to communicate with a creator of wonderful things like your books. Mike From zizban at adelphia.net Sat Jun 8 09:54:50 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 12:54:50 -0400 Subject: Night Owls In-Reply-To: <3D0234F1.CE5C0B43@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <72496117-7B00-11D6-84E6-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Saturday, June 8, 2002, at 12:46 PM, Michael R. Grindle wrote: > Moved to Vegas? That explains all the poker playing talk. I have only > been to Las Vegas once, but had a truly memorable time. Of course, > since reading Powers' "Last Call", Las Vegas holds an odd fascination > for me. > It's a cool place. On whim I saw Tom Jones at the MGM...don't laugh, this guy has more energy than acts 1/3 his age. Great show! > I have a couple more questions for Mr. Brust. > > Are there any authors out there who you feel are great, but are > relatively unknown? The kinds of writers you want to shake everyone and > say "Hey! Read this person's work! It's great! They should be > best-sellers instead of crap like Terry Goodkind!" > Being selfish: How me, I'm new ;-) > And, are there ever times when your family or friends say to you, either > about a whole work or parts of a work, "I didn't really like that." or > "That's pretty crappy, Steven." or any negative criticism? Is there any > work that you thought was simply some of the best you've ever done, and > yet other people say 'eh, it was ok' or worse? > > Thanks again for being so responsive to your fans, I don't know if there > are any authors whom you would have felt tongue-tied around, or in awe > of, but its nice to be able to communicate with a creator of wonderful > things like your books. > > Mike > > -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sat Jun 8 10:09:24 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 10:09:24 -0700 Subject: Night Owls In-Reply-To: <3D0234F1.CE5C0B43@ameritech.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020608100344.00a5a650@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:46 AM 6/8/2002 -0500, Michael R. Grindle wrote: >Are there any authors out there who you feel are great, but are >relatively unknown? The kinds of writers you want to shake everyone and >say "Hey! Read this person's work! I guess Megan Lindholm and Pamela Dean would fall into that category. >And, are there ever times when your family or friends say to you, either >about a whole work or parts of a work, "I didn't really like that." or >"That's pretty crappy, Steven." or any negative criticism? When my first book was published, a cousin came up to me and said, "Would you like some constructive criticism?" I said, "No." >Is there any >work that you thought was simply some of the best you've ever done, and >yet other people say 'eh, it was ok' or worse? Several books felt that way at one time, but, over the years, I've decided that they aren't the brilliant, stunning, world-shaking masterpieces I had thought they were when I was working on them. :-) >Thanks again for being so responsive to your fans, I don't know if there >are any authors whom you would have felt tongue-tied around, or in awe >of Zelazny, Patrick O'Brian, Twain, Dumas, Gene Wolfe. I eventually got over it in Roger's case, after getting to know him. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sat Jun 8 10:10:47 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 10:10:47 -0700 Subject: Night Owls In-Reply-To: <1A82F340.0C8AEF61.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020608101001.00a5e4b0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 12:21 PM 6/8/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >In a message dated Sat, 8 Jun 2002 11:17:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >zizban at adelphia.net writes: > > > Yes, Steve moved to Las Vegas. > >Then we're practically neighbors! -waving again from Colorado- "Oooooo, Colorda's calling me (Hey! You!)" -- Lemmings From rachael at daedala.net Sat Jun 8 11:42:28 2002 From: rachael at daedala.net (Rachael Lininger) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 13:42:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Teckla, etc In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607192415.00a69c40@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: On Jun 7, Steven Brust said: >At 08:18 PM 6/7/2002 -0500, Rachael Lininger wrote: >>Dear Devera, >> >>I'm currently trying to think of ways to overthrow the Dragaeran >>Empire.... > >ROFL! And you weren't even there! Who's been telling tales? DDB, of course. Though at one point I was helping Beth sort her Minneapo, so I might have seen one there. We looked it up, and I actually own a copy of the book with anise-gelled winneocerous. Lovely recipe, and I have all the ingredients but one; if I were inclined to afford three pounds of boned winneocerous shin, I could make some pretty easily. Hmmm... Rachael -- Rachael From the Dilbert Newsletter: Lininger "You should talk to her. rachael@ She is a minefield of information." daedala.net From rachael at daedala.net Sat Jun 8 12:04:20 2002 From: rachael at daedala.net (Rachael Lininger) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 14:04:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Teckla, etc In-Reply-To: <01KINUXBDMX20000A5@chud.net> Message-ID: On Jun 7, JOT at chud.net said: >The novel was decent enough, but he's no Brust. :) Please don't slag other authors, even in jest. Rachael -- Rachael From the Dilbert Newsletter: Lininger "You should talk to her. rachael@ She is a minefield of information." daedala.net From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Jun 8 13:07:17 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 08 Jun 2002 15:07:17 -0500 Subject: New Lists? In-Reply-To: <8.2767974f.2a32ae61@aol.com> References: <8.2767974f.2a32ae61@aol.com> Message-ID: Starshadw at aol.com writes: > In a message dated 6/7/2002 6:34:10 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > dragaera at juima.org writes: > > > > Although I think we should let the list run just a wee bit longer before > > already talking about phasing it out :) > > Eh, I like both, so either works for me. I wasn't actually voting for > getting rid of the listserv, it was only a thought to toss out since we have > already gotten 2 or 3 people talking about the mail volume. :) Adding additional lists is easy technically at this end. The RPG discussion, if it continues and gets big, seems a good candidate (or moving to their own web board if preferred). The "read this together" discussion also makes good sense -- having a private "room" to have that discussion in seems like a net win. Mentioning on the main list each time you're about to start something would be sensible too, if split off. A web board is unlikely; we discussed that quite a bit before launching this list. There *is* a nice threaded indexed archive of this mailing list on the web, though. Adding a mechanism to post to the mailing list from that might happen (but is *not* technically simple; I'd have to delve into the ezmlm-cgi code pretty seriously). (The web archive is at http://dragaera.info/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi ) -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Jun 8 13:09:13 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 08 Jun 2002 15:09:13 -0500 Subject: Official Rules Message-ID: Since they've just been updated, I'm reposting the official rules for this list. The updates as I remember them are: 1. Changing the email address listed for the Lord of the Keys. 2. Adding text about editing down quoted text, posting new text below old text, and keeping line lengths short. Welcome To The Dragaera Mailing List V1.1 8-Jun-2002 We've created this list, with Steven's support, to provide a central forum for fans of his work to find each other and discuss things. Day-to-day operation is handled by the "Lord of the Keys" (see _500 Years After_). All decisions of the LotK are final until he changes his mind. The current [8-Jun-2002] Lord of the Keys is Felix Strates <omaha at mpls.cx>. "On topic" material for this list includes general discussion among fans of Steven Brust, Paarfi, and the world of Dragaera; moderate amounts of "community" discussion; and such digressions as are more trouble to suppress than to ignore. This discussion must be conducted reasonably civilly. In particular, personal attacks are forbidden. Do NOT tell somebody that they're a poo-poo head; you may, if you wish, tell them that their claim to have found Devera on page 184 of _Dragon_ doesn't stand up to examination. When replying to a message on the list, relevant portions of the previous message should be quoted. The *entire* message should generally not be quoted, unless you're responding to each bit of it. New material should be placed *below* the old material it's responding to, not above. In other words, normal Usenet quoting conventions should be observed. Line lengths should be limited to less than 80 characters (70 is a better number, to allow for some buildup of quoting). Do not send file attachments to the list. Especially, do not send binary files to the list. Do not send HTML to the list. Send plain text messages to the list. All those other things will be stripped off by the software running the list. (Technicalities: MIME multipart/alternative is fine, so long as there is a text/plain part; that part will be passed through and the rest stripped.) (AOL users: that's what current AOL software does by default [as of 15-Apr-2002] so you shouldn't have trouble posting). The views expressed in messages on this list may be the views of the people who sent the messages; they are *not* the official views of anybody else. Note that this applies even to Steven and those of us running the list -- unless specifically stated otherwise, we're posting our personal opinions, not Official Truth. While Steven doesn't hate fan fiction on principle, he doesn't want to host it on the official web site or mailing list, so please don't send any. The information about the subscribers that we have (from the email headers; name and email address) will be posted to the list monthly, so people know with whom they are talking. The posts to this list are archived and are publicly available via email and on the web. Only list members may post to this list (this is primarily a spam-prevention measure). To subscribe, send email to <dragaera-subscribe at dragaera.info>, and respond to the confirmation message you will receive. (The confirmation message makes it much harder for somebody to subscribe you to this list as a "joke".) To unsubscribe, send email to <dragaera-unsubscribe at dragaera.info> >from the address you want unsubscribed, and respond to the confirmation message you will receive there. To send your message to all the subscribers on the list, send it to <dragaera at dragaera.info>. You must be a subscriber to the list yourself to do this. To communicate just with the Lord of the Keys, email your message to <dragaera-owner at dragaera.info>. To get help on the various commands the list management software supports, send email to <dragaera-help at dragaera.info>. (Technicalities: this list is run using ezmlm+idx). The home page for this list is http://dragaera.info/lists/dragaera/. Steven's web site is at http://www.dreamcafe.com This mailing list, and the eventual related web site, is a project of Corwin Brust, David Dyer-Bennet, and Felix Strates, with the support of Steven Brust. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Jun 8 13:23:04 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 08 Jun 2002 15:23:04 -0500 Subject: Stupid Vlad? (was Re: 'The time has come, the Walrus said) In-Reply-To: <3D02114E.9EE30C0B@ameritech.net> References: <3D02114E.9EE30C0B@ameritech.net> Message-ID: "Michael R. Grindle" writes: > >From reading Vlad, and reading comments by Mr. Brust, the question keeps > popping up in my mind; "How much of Vlad is autobiographical?" Not that > I think Mr. Brust is a sorcerer-witch-Jhereg-assassin, but I wonder if > Vlad's weaknesses are ones which Mr. Brust has, or fears he has? The > incredible writing of Vlad and Cawti's breakup seems to me as though it > MUST have come from a real life source...maybe I'm just not giving Mr. > Brust credit enough as a writer though. He's answered essentially this recently; see, in the archives: http://dragaera.info/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?mss:227:200206:nmpehcbmjbmmmljndknn -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From harrisonjeff at attbi.com Sat Jun 8 15:44:18 2002 From: harrisonjeff at attbi.com (Jeff Harrison) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 15:44:18 -0700 Subject: New Lists? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000801c20f3e$068d2ea0$6401a8c0@attbi.com> As for mail volume, let me add another email to the volume on the topic! I, too, was surprised at the volume...but, using Outlook, like many others, I quickly set up a folder and "rule" to automatically move emails from this list to the folder, and out of my inbox. That way they don't clog up my inbox, and I can go through all of the emails at my leisure when I need a Dragaera fix. This is working great for me, just my two cents....thanks, Jeff Jeff Harrison 503.645.0595 -----Original Message----- From: David Dyer-Bennet [mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net] Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 1:07 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: New Lists? Starshadw at aol.com writes: > In a message dated 6/7/2002 6:34:10 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > dragaera at juima.org writes: > > > > Although I think we should let the list run just a wee bit longer before > > already talking about phasing it out :) > > Eh, I like both, so either works for me. I wasn't actually voting for > getting rid of the listserv, it was only a thought to toss out since we have > already gotten 2 or 3 people talking about the mail volume. :) Adding additional lists is easy technically at this end. The RPG discussion, if it continues and gets big, seems a good candidate (or moving to their own web board if preferred). The "read this together" discussion also makes good sense -- having a private "room" to have that discussion in seems like a net win. Mentioning on the main list each time you're about to start something would be sensible too, if split off. A web board is unlikely; we discussed that quite a bit before launching this list. There *is* a nice threaded indexed archive of this mailing list on the web, though. Adding a mechanism to post to the mailing list from that might happen (but is *not* technically simple; I'd have to delve into the ezmlm-cgi code pretty seriously). (The web archive is at http://dragaera.info/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi ) -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From Starshadw at aol.com Sat Jun 8 16:46:54 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 19:46:54 EDT Subject: New Lists? Message-ID: <6a.2117fbca.2a33f16e@aol.com> In a message dated 6/8/2002 1:56:21 PM Mountain Daylight Time, dd-b at dd-b.net writes: > Adding additional lists is easy technically at this end. > > The RPG discussion, if it continues and gets big, seems a good > candidate (or moving to their own web board if preferred). The "read > this together" discussion also makes good sense -- having a private > "room" to have that discussion in seems like a net win. Mentioning on > the main list each time you're about to start something would be > sensible too, if split off. Would you be do kind as to create these two new lists? -bats her eyelashes at him at thorws coy looks, using all of her feminine wiles to get what she wants- Seriously, though, that way we could start setting up a schedule for a group read of Jhereg (might as well jump right in) and not continue to clutter up the regular list with RPG talk unilt I can get the site (yes, it's already started coming together although there isn't much of anything on it yet) hosted somewhere where I can get a decent message board software installed. I -could- just put up a Geocrappies page and use an EZBoard, but -shudders- Stacy From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Jun 8 18:14:54 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 08 Jun 2002 20:14:54 -0500 Subject: New Lists? In-Reply-To: <6a.2117fbca.2a33f16e@aol.com> References: <6a.2117fbca.2a33f16e@aol.com> Message-ID: Starshadw at aol.com writes: > In a message dated 6/8/2002 1:56:21 PM Mountain Daylight Time, dd-b at dd-b.net > writes: > > > > Adding additional lists is easy technically at this end. > > > > The RPG discussion, if it continues and gets big, seems a good > > candidate (or moving to their own web board if preferred). The "read > > this together" discussion also makes good sense -- having a private > > "room" to have that discussion in seems like a net win. Mentioning on > > the main list each time you're about to start something would be > > sensible too, if split off. > > Would you be do kind as to create these two new lists? -bats her > eyelashes at him at thorws coy looks, using all of her feminine > wiles to get what she wants- Seriously, though, that way we could > start setting up a schedule for a group read of Jhereg (might as > well jump right in) and not continue to clutter up the regular list > with RPG talk unilt I can get the site (yes, it's already started > coming together although there isn't much of anything on it yet) > hosted somewhere where I can get a decent message board software > installed. I -could- just put up a Geocrappies page and use an > EZBoard, but -shudders- I wouldn't want anybody to have to stoop to that, no. I've kicked off a quick back-stage discussion with the other site managers, to see if anybody thinks of any clever objections that have escaped me to creating the additional lists. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From Beldarrin at aol.com Sat Jun 8 19:09:10 2002 From: Beldarrin at aol.com (Beldarrin at aol.com) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 22:09:10 EDT Subject: Books to Movies Message-ID: <19d.36876f8.2a3412c6@aol.com> Alrightee, here's my question du jour. If someone offered you (Mr. Steve) lots of money to turn one of your books into a movie, which one would you want it to be, would you do it, and do you believe it would be selling out? I mean, money's a nice thing to have, but so's integrity, and I can see pros and cons on both sides, and I guess I was just wondering what you (or anyone else, for that matter) would do if confronted with the issue. (Oh, and my apologies for my e-mail last night... I was in rather rare form and I guess I really should have placed a post-it note on my computer before leaving the house that read "Do NOT compose any e-mails!" Unfortunately, I didn't and I got the splendid opportunity of signing on just a few minutes ago to be greeted by my horribly humiliating message. Ack. Just wanted to say sorry I did it and I hope it wasn't too irritating to anyone.) Wishing everyone an ice cold pina colada on such a humid day, Steph :) From matthew at infodancer.org Sat Jun 8 19:11:24 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 21:11:24 -0500 Subject: Books to Movies In-Reply-To: <19d.36876f8.2a3412c6@aol.com> References: <19d.36876f8.2a3412c6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020609021124.GB28869@infodancer.org> On Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 10:09:10PM -0400, Beldarrin at aol.com wrote: > Alrightee, here's my question du jour. If someone offered you (Mr. > Steve) lots of money to turn one of your books into a movie, which one would > you want it to be, would you do it, and do you believe it would be selling > out? Actually, the early Vlad books would make wonderful movies, I think. The later ones are trickier. Just think of Jhereg -- told from Looish's perspective, complete with witty repartee. Looish, being a familiar animal with human-level intelligence and flight capabilities, offers a truly excellent opportunity to indulge in some artistic camerawork as the "viewpoint focus". -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sat Jun 8 19:48:05 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 19:48:05 -0700 Subject: Books to Movies In-Reply-To: <19d.36876f8.2a3412c6@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020608194614.00a65cb0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:09 PM 6/8/2002 -0400, Beldarrin at aol.com wrote: > If someone offered you (Mr. >Steve) lots of money to turn one of your books into a movie, which one would >you want it to be, would you do it, and do you believe it would be selling >out? Do you mean turn it into a movie, or let someone else turn it into a movie? The former I wouldn't do, the latter I would. I think Agyar would make the best movie as long as it was very low-budget. For a big budget movie, I think Feng would work best. From lisa at spindot.com Sat Jun 8 22:17:33 2002 From: lisa at spindot.com (Lisa Grant Coffin) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 01:17:33 -0400 Subject: brokedown palace Message-ID: <00b501c20f74$f65d2e40$1401a8c0@Spencer> Hello All I just finished my re-read of Brokedown Palace. As is usual, I realized I missed a few things the last time I read it. Brigitta, who, according to one of the Dragaera FAQ's online, is Cawti's mother, was fathered by *something* other than an easterner. She said her father used to change shape to irritate her mother. Demon? God? How might this affect Cawti? Also....having finally secured 'Phoenix' after several years of keeping my eyes peeled; more questions came to light regarding the gods and magic. For instance, in Brokedown Palace, Sandor had no sorcery once Verra was "killed" (expelled?) and thus sunk into the River. In Phoenix, where there was no Orb; or sorcery, Verra could not reach Vlad. There also seemed to be limited psionic ability as well; and witchcraft wasn't working. Note this never affected Loiosh and Vlad's psionic communication. Comments? Analysis? Lisa Grant Coffin, who found 'Athyra' on a remote windswept cliff in Nova Scotia, upon which an exile built a cafe that sold used sci-fi-fantasy. From zizban at adelphia.net Sun Jun 9 08:40:50 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 11:40:50 -0400 Subject: brokedown palace In-Reply-To: <00b501c20f74$f65d2e40$1401a8c0@Spencer> Message-ID: <463E992A-7BBF-11D6-9069-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 01:17 AM, Lisa Grant Coffin wrote: > Hello All > > I just finished my re-read of Brokedown Palace. > As is usual, I realized I missed a few things the last time I read it. > Brigitta, who, according to one of the Dragaera FAQ's online, is > Cawti's mother, > was fathered by *something* other than an easterner. She said her father > used to change shape to irritate her mother. Demon? God? How might this > affect Cawti? Hmmm..how do I say this? It doesn't matter. For the foreseeable future, she isn't going to be a part of the series in any significant way. But if I had to place my bets, I'd say he was neither a demon or a god. The East is full of things that haven't been written about. Her father could have been some unknown Eastern thing. In the Vlad books, Cawti didn't exhibit any out of the normal traits so I would think she wasn't affected by any traits of her father's. > > Also....having finally secured 'Phoenix' after several years of keeping > my eyes peeled; > more questions came to light regarding the gods and magic. For > instance, in Brokedown > Palace, Sandor had no sorcery once Verra was "killed" (expelled?) and > thus sunk into the River. > In Phoenix, where there was no Orb; or sorcery, Verra could not reach > Vlad. There also > seemed to be limited psionic ability as well; and witchcraft wasn't > working. Note this > never affected Loiosh and Vlad's psionic communication. Comments? > Analysis? > I think Loioish's psionic communication was the result of adeep witchcraft bond that didn't need active magic to maintain. > Lisa Grant Coffin, > who found 'Athyra' on a remote windswept cliff in Nova Scotia, upon > which an exile built a cafe that sold used sci-fi-fantasy. > -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From Gaertk at aol.com Sun Jun 9 09:07:25 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 12:07:25 -0400 Subject: brokedown palace Message-ID: <517C41EA.621629C3.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Sun, 9 Jun 2002 ?1:18:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "Lisa Grant Coffin" writes: > Hello All Hi Lisa > Also....having finally secured 'Phoenix' after several > years of keeping my eyes peeled; more questions came to > light regarding the gods and magic. For instance, in > Brokedown Palace, Sandor had no sorcery once Verra was > "killed" (expelled?) and thus sunk into the River. Note the comments about Verra being the personification of sorcery (or the use made of sorcery). > In Phoenix, where there was no Orb; or sorcery, Verra > could not reach Vlad. There also seemed to be limited > psionic ability as well; and witchcraft wasn't working. > Note this never affected Loiosh and Vlad's psionic > communication. Comments? Analysis? Gold Phoenix Stone blocks Orb-sorcery; black stops witchcraft and psionics. That's about all we know. Speaking of _Phoenix_, when did Cawti start studying pre-Empire sorcery? Or did Aliera give her some pre-Empire plastic explosives or something? --KG From akomins at midway.uchicago.edu Sun Jun 9 11:43:22 2002 From: akomins at midway.uchicago.edu (Arin Komins) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 13:43:22 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Top-Posting Yendi seeks Teckla Artist In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020608091021.00a44550@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Steven Brust wrote: :Subject: Re: Top-Posting Yendi seeks Teckla Artist : :At 08:18 AM 6/8/2002 -0700, Brad Crawford wrote: : :> > >Wasn't there a graphic comic book version of Jhereg in the late 80's? I :> > >remember seeing it. :> > :> > Yes. :> > :> > :>Darn Steve, that was helpful. LOL :>Do you remember the publisher or any other info on it? : :I've mostly blocked it from my consciousness. Not that I'm recommending this, but the info on this: Steven Brust's Jhereg: The Graphic Novel. By Alan Zelenetz (Adaptation) & John Pierard (Art) (letterer was Kurt Hathaway) (an Epic graphic novel) Cost $8.95 US ISBN: 0-87135-674-0 Arin -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Arin Komins akomins at uchicago.edu Manager of Web Systems Architecture University of Chicago/NSIT tel: (773)834-4087 1155 E. 60th St. #302B Chicago, IL 60637 fax: (773)702-0559 ------------------------------------------------------------------ From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Sun Jun 9 18:48:55 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 20:48:55 -0500 Subject: brokedown palace References: <463E992A-7BBF-11D6-9069-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <3D040587.AD55611A@attbi.com> Chris remarked: > Hmmm..how do I say this? It doesn't matter. For the foreseeable future, she isn't going to be a part of the series in any significant way. But if I had to place my bets, I'd say he was neither a demon or a god. The East is full of things that haven't been written about. Her father could have been some unknown Eastern thing. > I dunno, Chris. The way things were left after Issola . . . s p o i l e r s p a c e With Vlad and Lady Teldra going back to Adrilankha, I wouldn't be at all surprised to run into Cawti any time now. She'll be around, I bet, at some point--she's still the mother of Vlad's son. And, she does have *something* nonhuman in her ancestry--I'd be disappointed if nothing is ever made of that. Mia From zizban at adelphia.net Sun Jun 9 19:05:05 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 22:05:05 -0400 Subject: brokedown palace In-Reply-To: <3D040587.AD55611A@attbi.com> Message-ID: <7B92077F-7C16-11D6-A211-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 09:48 PM, Mia McDavid wrote: > Chris remarked: >> > Hmmm..how do I say this? It doesn't matter. For the foreseeable future, > she isn't going to be a part of the series in any significant way. But > if I had to place my bets, I'd say he was neither a demon or a god. The > East is full of things that haven't been written about. Her father could > > have been some unknown Eastern thing. >> > > I dunno, Chris. The way things were left after Issola . . . > > s > p > o > i > l > e > r > s > p > a > c > e > > With Vlad and Lady Teldra going back to Adrilankha, I wouldn't be at all > surprised to run into Cawti any time now. She'll be around, I bet, at > some point--she's still the mother of Vlad's son. And, she does have > *something* nonhuman in her ancestry--I'd be disappointed if nothing is > ever made of that. > > Mia > I would like to see Vlad hang out in Adrilankha and maybe meet up with Cawti, plus some other "old" friends, but more I'd like a book about Vlad in the East. > -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From nthuleen at students.wisc.edu Sun Jun 9 19:19:30 2002 From: nthuleen at students.wisc.edu (Nancy Thuleen) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 21:19:30 -0500 Subject: Top-Posting Yendi seeks Teckla Artist In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020608091021.00a44550@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607225352.00a66690@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020608081810.00a6b4a0@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020608091021.00a44550@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: At 9:10 -0700 08.6.2002, Steven Brust wrote: > At 08:18 AM 6/8/2002 -0700, Brad Crawford wrote: > > > > >Wasn't there a graphic comic book version of Jhereg in the late 80's? I > > > >remember seeing it. > > > > > > Yes. > > > > >Darn Steve, that was helpful. LOL > >Do you remember the publisher or any other info on it? > > I've mostly blocked it from my consciousness. Probably with good reason. :) I haven't actually seen the book, but there are some sample images at http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/treats/jhereg_comic.html that just crack me up (the webmaster's captions aren't bad either). Still, I'd probably buy it if I saw it in a used bookstore somewhere, just for the novelty and amusement value. Those wacky blue-skinned Left Hand sorceresses! - Nancy. From zizban at adelphia.net Sun Jun 9 19:23:54 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 22:23:54 -0400 Subject: Top-Posting Yendi seeks Teckla Artist In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1C3457A0-7C19-11D6-A211-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 10:19 PM, Nancy Thuleen wrote: > > Probably with good reason. :) I haven't actually seen the book, but > there are some sample images at > http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/treats/jhereg_comic.html that just crack > me up (the webmaster's captions aren't bad either). Still, I'd > probably buy it if I saw it in a used bookstore somewhere, just for the > novelty and amusement value. Those wacky blue-skinned Left Hand > sorceresses! > > - Nancy. > > Wow...that is...um....well, not hideous :) -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From dan-tain_ishanti at attbi.com Sun Jun 9 19:23:35 2002 From: dan-tain_ishanti at attbi.com (Brad Crawford) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 19:23:35 -0700 Subject: Top-Posting Yendi seeks Teckla Artist References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607225352.00a66690@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020608081810.00a6b4a0@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020608091021.00a44550@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <001101c21025$d2f681c0$8fd47e18@we.client2.attbi.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nancy Thuleen" > Probably with good reason. :) I haven't actually seen the book, but there are some sample images at http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/treats/jhereg_comic.html that just crack me up (the webmaster's captions aren't bad either). Still, I'd probably buy it if I saw it in a used bookstore somewhere, just for the novelty and amusement value. Those wacky blue-skinned Left Hand sorceresses! > > - Nancy. Uhh...that actually physically hurt it was so bad. Alan Zelenetz (Adaptation) "well ya, I skimmed the book. I got the story, kiddo. Don't worry" John Pierard (Art) "Hey, I just draw what Zelenetz says to" Brad From singram at videotron.ca Sun Jun 9 19:44:06 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 22:44:06 -0400 Subject: Top-Posting Yendi seeks Teckla Artist References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020607225352.00a66690@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020608081810.00a6b4a0@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020608091021.00a44550@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <001c01c21028$b0cdaa80$17ecca18@ingram> > Probably with good reason. :) I haven't actually seen the book, but there are some sample images at http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/treats/jhereg_comic.html that just crack me up (the webmaster's captions aren't bad either). Still, I'd probably buy it if I saw it in a used bookstore somewhere, just for the novelty and amusement value. Those wacky blue-skinned Left Hand sorceresses! > > - Nancy. Wow, I hadn't really thought about what Aliera might look like, floating around like that. I'm pretty sure in the books her dress covers her legs, however. Heh, poor Steven "What have you done to my child????!!!!!" Brust From monty at montykins.com Sun Jun 9 19:48:04 2002 From: monty at montykins.com (Monty Ashley) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 19:48:04 -0700 Subject: Top-Posting Yendi seeks Teckla Artist In-Reply-To: <001c01c21028$b0cdaa80$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: > Wow, I hadn't really thought about what Aliera might look like, floating > around like that. I'm pretty sure in the books her dress covers her legs, > however. Yeah, it says somewhere that she wears dresses that go all the way to the ground, to hide the fact that she's a short floating woman. -Monty From joelynch at inreach.com Sun Jun 9 22:23:18 2002 From: joelynch at inreach.com (Joe Lynch) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 22:23:18 -0700 Subject: Story timeline and novel publication timeline- and digest! Message-ID: One of the very best things about the Vlad novels is how the publishing timeline is not linear to the story timeline. For example, Jhereg comes out, then Yendi comes out, covering a time period before Jhereg, then Teckla comes out, covering the time after Jhereg. And so on. I'm not aware of any other sci fi or fantasy series doing this and it's one of the main attractions of the stories. Steve- How much of this did you plan? Do you expect to do this for the full cycle, assuming you get to writing all of the Vlad books? (no, not a baseball reference. I'm a soccer fan who's not sleeping much these days. Go USA!) Thanks! Joe Lynch p.s. And as for list volume- try the digest option if you haven't noticed it before...I quickly switched after getting 50 emails in one day. :) From dd-b at dd-b.net Sun Jun 9 22:37:15 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 10 Jun 2002 00:37:15 -0500 Subject: Story timeline and novel publication timeline- and digest! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Joe Lynch" writes: > p.s. And as for list volume- try the digest option if you haven't noticed it > before...I quickly switched after getting 50 emails in one day. :) I really need to make that more prominent on the web page for the list. I'll keep it in mind for when I'm creating the new lists, which seems like it's going to happen. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Sun Jun 9 22:47:26 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 10 Jun 2002 00:47:26 -0500 Subject: META: New lists Message-ID: We seem to have agreement-in-principle to create two new mailing lists, for the RPG discussion and for a read-along project. Stacey / Starshadow has agreed to be in charge of the RPG one (every time I see that I still think "rocket propelled grenade" first!). We also need a statement of "purpose", or what's on-topic, for the charter (most of the rules I can crib, making them the same as this list, but especially since this is for a particular RPG project rather than general discussion of Dragaeran RPGs (or am I badly confused?), there needs to be some statement of that. Also, the list needs an email name; it'll be *something*@dragaera.info, and just "RPG" doesn't sound like the right something given that it's more focused than that. I'm not following that project closely, so I can't write that and get it right. Stacey? Give it a whack? Needn't be perfect, and remember the most important rule of running a mailing list: don't let people rules-lawyer you. The rules are written to say the people are in charge, and the rules are guidelines to get you started. We need somebody to be in charge of the list for the read-along project. (Well, Stacey did admit to being willing to do both, but why load everything onto one person?) If people interested in that project think somebody specific is "in charge" of the read-along project and that person is willing to be in charge of the list, that'd be perfect. Is that anybody's perception of reality? This one needs an email address, and "purpose" language for the rules, too. Seems like there's an obvious email address: readalong at dragaera.info. Being in charge of the list need not, but carries a risk of, leave you in charge of the actual read-along project. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sun Jun 9 23:34:52 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 23:34:52 -0700 Subject: Story timeline and novel publication timeline- and digest! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020609233230.00ab4af0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:23 PM 6/9/2002 -0700, Joe Lynch wrote: >One of the very best things about the Vlad novels is how the publishing >timeline is not linear to the story timeline. For example, Jhereg comes out, >then Yendi comes out, covering a time period before Jhereg, then Teckla >comes out, covering the time after Jhereg. And so on. I'm not aware of any >other sci fi or fantasy series doing this and it's one of the main >attractions of the stories. Darkover. >How much of this did you plan? It isn't a matter of planning; it's a matter of telling the next story I felt like telling. Plan? Me? Heh. I didn't even know I was writing a series until I was partway into TECKLA. >Do you expect to do this for the full cycle, assuming you get to writing all >of the Vlad books? We need an FAQ. If I don't either die or get tired of writing them, there will be 19 in all: One for each House, a first one called TALTOS, and a last one called THE LAST CONTRACT. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sun Jun 9 23:36:51 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 23:36:51 -0700 Subject: META: New lists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020609233536.00ab6330@pop3.lvcm.com> At 12:47 AM 6/10/2002 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >Stacey / Starshadow has agreed to be in charge of the RPG one (every >time I see that I still think "rocket propelled grenade" first!). I think Report Program Generator. Your reaction is healthier. From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Jun 10 00:06:11 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 02:06:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: META: New lists In-Reply-To: Steven Brust's message <5.1.0.14.0.20020609233536.00ab6330@pop3.lvcm.com> of 9 June 2002 References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020609233536.00ab6330@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <15620.20452.819.294929@gw.dd-b.net> Steven Brust writes on 9 June 2002 at 23:36:51 -0700 > At 12:47 AM 6/10/2002 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > >Stacey / Starshadow has agreed to be in charge of the RPG one (every > >time I see that I still think "rocket propelled grenade" first!). > > I think Report Program Generator. Your reaction is healthier. Eeeewwwwwwww! It was bad enough having to *read* that stuff. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From harrisonjeff at attbi.com Mon Jun 10 00:37:17 2002 From: harrisonjeff at attbi.com (Jeff Harrison) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 00:37:17 -0700 Subject: META: New lists In-Reply-To: <15620.20452.819.294929@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <000001c21051$a639dac0$6401a8c0@attbi.com> Well, at least that RPG has cycles, too! Bad, I know, sorry. Set my EOF indicator on high. I'll for the reign of a decadent compiler. Jeff Harrison -----Original Message----- From: David Dyer-Bennet [mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net] Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 12:06 AM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: META: New lists Steven Brust writes on 9 June 2002 at 23:36:51 -0700 > At 12:47 AM 6/10/2002 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > >Stacey / Starshadow has agreed to be in charge of the RPG one (every > >time I see that I still think "rocket propelled grenade" first!). > > I think Report Program Generator. Your reaction is healthier. Eeeewwwwwwww! It was bad enough having to *read* that stuff. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From Starshadw at aol.com Mon Jun 10 06:55:06 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 09:55:06 -0400 Subject: Draft RPG List Rules Message-ID: <5409A887.51C17565.0296E7C9@aol.com> David ? You are correct in that the reason for creation of the list was so the specific RPG project could be discussed. I don?t have a preference one way or the other as to the name: rpg at dragaera.info could work just fine, unless Steve plans on giving more people permission to run online RPGs, in which case it could still work fine because we could simply change the scope to have the list be a place for discussion of Dragaeran RPGs in general. dragaera-rpg at dragaera.info could also work, although I?m not sure if that?s the ?final? name of the RPG. It?s what I?ve been using so far and is a good, general name. ~~~~~~~~~~~ Scope of List and Rules Below ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This list, with Steven's permission, is to provide a central forum for those fans of his work also interested in role-playing to gather and talk about the Dragaera RPG. Steven has given permission to those interested to create and run an online RPG based on his Dragaera world. This is already in the works and a website is pending (and hopefully will be up and running NLT June 14, 2002 although it may take a little longer before the RPG itself is ready to start). Day-to-day operation is handled by the "Empress" (reference should be obvious). All decisions of the Empress are final until she changes her mind. The current [8-Jun-2002] empress is Stacy Storer (do I have to put my last name?? Eek. I will if I have to, but that?s kinda scary) . "On topic" material for this list includes all discussions related to the Dragaera RPG ? this includes rules discussions, campaign plots, etc. but will NOT include any in-character emails, journals, etc. Also acceptable are moderate amounts of "community" off-topic discussion; and such digressions as are more trouble to suppress than to ignore. Be aware that the main purpose of the list if to provide a place for discussion until the message board on the website is up and running. This means that if you only subscribe to this list, you may be missing a great deal of discussion. This discussion must be conducted reasonably civilly. In particular, personal attacks and flaming are forbidden. Do NOT tell somebody that they're a poo-poo head; you may, if you wish, tell them that their claim to have found Devera on page 184 of Dragon doesn't stand up to examination. When replying to a message on the list, relevant portions of the previous message should be quoted. The *entire* message should generally not be quoted, unless you're responding to each bit of it. New material should be placed *below* the old material it's responding to, not above. In other words, normal Usenet quoting conventions should be observed. Line lengths should be limited to less than 80 characters (70 is a better number, to allow for some buildup of quoting). Do not send file attachments to the list. Especially, do not send binary files to the list. Do not send HTML to the list. Send plain text messages to the list. All those other things will be stripped off by the software running the list. (Technicalities: MIME multipart/alternative is fine, so long as there is a text/plain part; that part will be passed through and the rest stripped.) (AOL users: that's what current AOL software does by default [as of 15-Apr-2002] so you shouldn't have trouble posting). The views expressed in messages on this list may be the views of the people who sent the messages (or their evil twins ? we don?t discriminate here); they are *not* the official views of anybody else. Note that this applies even to Steven and those of us running the list -- unless specifically stated otherwise, we're posting our personal opinions, not Official Truth. While Steven doesn't hate fan fiction on principle, he doesn't want to host it on the official web site or mailing list, so please don't send any. Hence the ?NO in-character? rule above. The information about the subscribers that we have (from the email headers; name and email address) will be posted to the list monthly, so people know with whom they are talking. The posts to this list are archived and are publicly available via email and on the web. Only list members may post to this list (this is primarily a spam-prevention measure). To subscribe, send email to , and respond to the confirmation message you will receive. (The confirmation message makes it much harder for somebody to subscribe you to this list as a "joke".) To unsubscribe, send email to from the address you want unsubscribed, and respond to the confirmation message you will receive there. To send your message to all the subscribers on the list, send it to . You must be a subscriber to the list yourself to do this. To communicate just with the Empress, email your message to . To get help on the various commands the list management software supports, send email to . (Technicalities: this list is run using ezmlm+idx). The home page for this list is http://dragaera.info/dragaera-list/. Steven's web site is at http://www.dreamcafe.com Dragaera RPG?s website is at: (will let you know as soon as I have it. www.dragaera-rpg.com is available and will probably be what I decide to go with for simplicity?s sake, even if we end up giving the RPG a different name. Most people searching for such an RPG wouldn?t know a specific name anyway.) This mailing list, and the eventual related web site, is a project of Corwin Brust, David Dyer-Bennet, and Felix Strates, with the support of Steven Brust. From Starshadw at aol.com Mon Jun 10 07:05:06 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 10:05:06 -0400 Subject: Draft Group Read Rules Message-ID: <11A7B043.324DA871.0296E7C9@aol.com> David ? (Just noticed a typo in the first set of rules. It's a small one; there is an "if" instead of an "is" in the third paragraph: "Be aware that the main purpose of the list IS to provide a place for discussion until the message board on the website is up and running.") Here are some draft rules for the Group Read, just because I have the time: readalong at dragaera.info is fine, and group-read at dragaera.info would also be fine. ~~~~~~~~~~~ Scope of List and Rules Below ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This list, with Steven's permission, is to provide a central forum for those fans of his work also interested in role-playing to ?read? one (only one at a time to avoid confusion) of his books at the same time and engage in discussion and speculation about said book. This is basically a virtual book club. Day-to-day operation is handled by "Paarfi" (reference should be obvious). All decisions of Paarfi are final until he changes his mind. The current [8-Jun-2002] Paarfi is ???????????? . "On topic" material for this list includes all discussions related to whatever book the list is currently reading ? this includes discussions and speculations about characters, plot, nit-picks, etc. Also acceptable are moderate amounts of "community" off-topic discussion; and such digressions as are more trouble to suppress than to ignore. This discussion must be conducted reasonably civilly. In particular, personal attacks and flaming are forbidden. Do NOT tell somebody that they're a poo-poo head; you may, if you wish, tell them that their claim to have found Devera on page 184 of Dragon doesn't stand up to examination. When replying to a message on the list, relevant portions of the previous message should be quoted. The *entire* message should generally not be quoted, unless you're responding to each bit of it. New material should be placed *below* the old material it's responding to, not above. In other words, normal Usenet quoting conventions should be observed. Line lengths should be limited to less than 80 characters (70 is a better number, to allow for some buildup of quoting). Do not send file attachments to the list. Especially, do not send binary files to the list. Do not send HTML to the list. Send plain text messages to the list. All those other things will be stripped off by the software running the list. (Technicalities: MIME multipart/alternative is fine, so long as there is a text/plain part; that part will be passed through and the rest stripped.) (AOL users: that's what current AOL software does by default [as of 15-Apr-2002] so you shouldn't have trouble posting). The views expressed in messages on this list may be the views of the people who sent the messages (or their evil twins ? we don?t discriminate here); they are *not* the official views of anybody else. Note that this applies even to Steven and those of us running the list -- unless specifically stated otherwise, we're posting our personal opinions, not Official Truth. While Steven doesn't hate fan fiction on principle, he doesn't want to host it on the official web site or mailing list, so please don't send any. The information about the subscribers that we have (from the email headers; name and email address) will be posted to the list monthly, so people know with whom they are talking. The posts to this list are archived and are publicly available via email and on the web. Only list members may post to this list (this is primarily a spam-prevention measure). To subscribe, send email to , and respond to the confirmation message you will receive. (The confirmation message makes it much harder for somebody to subscribe you to this list as a "joke".) To unsubscribe, send email to from the address you want unsubscribed, and respond to the confirmation message you will receive there. To send your message to all the subscribers on the list, send it to . You must be a subscriber to the list yourself to do this. To communicate just with the Empress, email your message to . To get help on the various commands the list management software supports, send email to . (Technicalities: this list is run using ezmlm+idx). The home page for this list is http://dragaera.info/dragaera-list/. Steven's web site is at http://www.dreamcafe.com This mailing list, and the eventual related web site, is a project of Corwin Brust, David Dyer-Bennet, and Felix Strates, with the support of Steven Brust. From Sams0n at aol.com Mon Jun 10 07:12:01 2002 From: Sams0n at aol.com (Sams0n at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 10:12:01 EDT Subject: Not to be a jerk.... Message-ID: <172.9792ac7.2a360db1@aol.com> But I have to admit....I'm shallow and thrifty with my time..and with the logical talk of reducing the mails through different lists...is there a way to only get Mr. Brust's contributions to the list? That's all that my shallow, limited-wit, unkind self really wants to read. Shallow Unkind Andy www.supertalkthemovie.com From ahovey at caris.com Mon Jun 10 07:22:45 2002 From: ahovey at caris.com (Adam Hovey) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 11:22:45 -0300 Subject: Not to be a jerk.... References: <172.9792ac7.2a360db1@aol.com> Message-ID: <027001c2108a$4a421050$b9c8a8c0@caris.priv> You're not being a jerk.... However how do you expect to understand what he is discussing if you only receive his emails....though you have a very valid underlying point. I had 200 plus messages in my inbox when I came back from my weekend vacation. Most I just deleted to be honest as I don't have time to sift through them all. I definately think that there should be a list strictly for book related discussion as I couldn't give two rats about all of this RPG crap. (My opinion) As such I also feel that thirty emails about spices in a Dragaera is absurd also(and I love to cook). So in light of the above, when the whole seperate list issue is figured out, please place me ont he Book list only...Thanks Adam ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 11:12 AM Subject: Not to be a jerk.... But I have to admit....I'm shallow and thrifty with my time..and with the logical talk of reducing the mails through different lists...is there a way to only get Mr. Brust's contributions to the list? That's all that my shallow, limited-wit, unkind self really wants to read. Shallow Unkind Andy www.supertalkthemovie.com From Starshadw at aol.com Mon Jun 10 07:28:41 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 10:28:41 -0400 Subject: Not to be a jerk.... Message-ID: <295E8280.31BA6DA1.0296E7C9@aol.com> In a message dated Mon, 10 Jun 2002 10:21:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ahovey at caris.com writes: though you have a very valid underlying point. I had > 200 plus messages in my inbox when I came back from my weekend vacation. Ummmm.....I have to ask: What exactly were you (and others who have complained about the number of Emails) expecting? It -is- a mailing list, after all. Did you simply think you would only get one or two Emails per week? Per day? And what would make you think that? I haven't seen a mailing list yet that had that few Emails: probably because the few that did ended up closing down due to lack of interest. I'm not trying to be argumentative; I'm genuinely curious. > I definately think that there should be a list strictly for book > related discussion as I couldn't give two rats about all of this RPG crap. David is working on two more lists. Hopefully, they will be up and running soon. > (My opinion) As such I also feel that thirty emails about spices in a > Dragaera is absurd also(and I love to cook). Actually, there was more going on in those "spice" discussions than just talking about spice. :) You do have to be careful in assuming too much by the subject line. Sometimes, the conversation veers away from what is directly stated in the subject. I guess I'm just kinda shocked (that's not really the word I'm looking for) that people are complaining about receiving Emails when they have subscribed to an Email(ing) list. Isn't that the whole point? I guess I'm just confused as to what the problem is.... Stacy From zizban at adelphia.net Mon Jun 10 07:29:54 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 10:29:54 -0400 Subject: Not to be a jerk.... In-Reply-To: <027001c2108a$4a421050$b9c8a8c0@caris.priv> Message-ID: <87D554BC-7C7E-11D6-AA7F-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Monday, June 10, 2002, at 10:22 AM, Adam Hovey wrote: > You're not being a jerk.... > > However how do you expect to understand what he is discussing if you > only > receive his emails....though you have a very valid underlying point. I > had > 200 plus messages in my inbox when I came back from my weekend vacation. > Most I just deleted to be honest as I don't have time to sift through > them > all. I definately think that there should be a list strictly for book > related discussion as I couldn't give two rats about all of this RPG > crap. > (My opinion) As such I also feel that thirty emails about spices in a > Dragaera is absurd also(and I love to cook). > > So in light of the above, when the whole seperate list issue is figured > out, > please place me ont he Book list only...Thanks > > Adam > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 11:12 AM > Subject: Not to be a jerk.... > > > > > But I have to admit....I'm shallow and thrifty with my time..and with > the > logical talk of reducing the mails through different lists...is there a > way > to only get Mr. Brust's contributions to the list? That's all that my > shallow, limited-wit, unkind self really wants to read. > > Shallow Unkind Andy > www.supertalkthemovie.com > > > Don't worry; the list is being split as we speak into three lists: rpg, group reads and this one. -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From zizban at adelphia.net Mon Jun 10 07:33:30 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 10:33:30 -0400 Subject: Not to be a jerk.... In-Reply-To: <295E8280.31BA6DA1.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <08B73D81-7C7F-11D6-AA7F-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Monday, June 10, 2002, at 10:28 AM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated Mon, 10 Jun 2002 10:21:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > ahovey at caris.com writes: > > though you have a very valid underlying point. I had >> 200 plus messages in my inbox when I came back from my weekend >> vacation. > > Ummmm.....I have to ask: What exactly were you (and others who have > complained about the number of Emails) expecting? It -is- a mailing > list, after all. Did you simply think you would only get one or two > Emails per week? Per day? And what would make you think that? I > haven't seen a mailing list yet that had that few Emails: probably > because the few that did ended up closing down due to lack of > interest. I'm not trying to be argumentative; I'm genuinely curious. > > >> I definately think that there should be a list strictly for book >> related discussion as I couldn't give two rats about all of this RPG >> crap. > > David is working on two more lists. Hopefully, they will be up and > running soon. > >> (My opinion) As such I also feel that thirty emails about spices in a >> Dragaera is absurd also(and I love to cook). > > Actually, there was more going on in those "spice" discussions than > just talking about spice. :) You do have to be careful in assuming too > much by the subject line. Sometimes, the conversation veers away from > what is directly stated in the subject. > > I guess I'm just kinda shocked (that's not really the word I'm looking > for) that people are complaining about receiving Emails when they have > subscribed to an Email(ing) list. Isn't that the whole point? I guess > I'm just confused as to what the problem is.... > > Stacy > > I think perhaps people were shocked by the volume. I am on several Macintosh related lists and at first I too was shocked but I realized, that's why they have mailing lists, to communicate with others who share your interest. Anyone who feels overwhelmed should try the digest version. Makes everything compact into one nifty email. The volume should decrease after the mailing list is split into threes. -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From rachael at daedala.net Mon Jun 10 08:39:08 2002 From: rachael at daedala.net (Rachael Lininger) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 10:39:08 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Not to be a jerk.... In-Reply-To: <172.9792ac7.2a360db1@aol.com> Message-ID: On Jun 10, Sams0n at aol.com said: >But I have to admit....I'm shallow and thrifty with my time..and with the >logical talk of reducing the mails through different lists...is there a way >to only get Mr. Brust's contributions to the list? That's all that my >shallow, limited-wit, unkind self really wants to read. > >Shallow Unkind Andy >www.supertalkthemovie.com Hmm. You're using AOL, so what applies to everyone else probably won't apply to you. I'd suggest checking with AOL about mail filtering. If you have some method available for sorting spam out into separate folders, you could sort out "dragaera at dragaera.info" posts that aren't Steve. And if Steve hasn't quoted sufficiently, you can check the previous emails in the archive. Rachael -- Rachael From the Dilbert Newsletter: Lininger "You should talk to her. rachael@ She is a minefield of information." daedala.net From zizban at adelphia.net Mon Jun 10 08:17:47 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 11:17:47 -0400 Subject: Not to be a jerk.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3898432E-7C85-11D6-95C9-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Monday, June 10, 2002, at 11:04 AM, Lowki Liesmith wrote: > pessonally my feelings are hurt but I havent touched my comp. in three > days and I have 239 new e-mails and only 15 were not the mailing list. > but I still have read them all. It makes me feel loved. > > >> From: Chris Turkel >> To: dragaera at dragaera.info >> Subject: Re: Not to be a jerk.... >> Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 10:33:30 -0400 >> >> >> On Monday, June 10, 2002, at 10:28 AM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >> >>> In a message dated Mon, 10 Jun 2002 10:21:04 AM Eastern Daylight >>> Time, ahovey at caris.com writes: >>> >>> though you have a very valid underlying point. I had >>>> 200 plus messages in my inbox when I came back from my weekend >>>> vacation. >>> >>> Ummmm.....I have to ask: What exactly were you (and others who have >>> complained about the number of Emails) expecting? It -is- a mailing >>> list, after all. Did you simply think you would only get one or two >>> Emails per week? Per day? And what would make you think that? I >>> haven't seen a mailing list yet that had that few Emails: probably >>> because the few that did ended up closing down due to lack of >>> interest. I'm not trying to be argumentative; I'm genuinely curious. >>> >>> >>>> I definately think that there should be a list strictly for book >>>> related discussion as I couldn't give two rats about all of this RPG >>>> crap. >>> >>> David is working on two more lists. Hopefully, they will be up and >>> running soon. >>> >>>> (My opinion) As such I also feel that thirty emails about spices in a >>>> Dragaera is absurd also(and I love to cook). >>> >>> Actually, there was more going on in those "spice" discussions than >>> just talking about spice. :) You do have to be careful in assuming >>> too much by the subject line. Sometimes, the conversation veers away >>> from what is directly stated in the subject. >>> >>> I guess I'm just kinda shocked (that's not really the word I'm >>> looking for) that people are complaining about receiving Emails when >>> they have subscribed to an Email(ing) list. Isn't that the whole >>> point? I guess I'm just confused as to what the problem is.... >>> >>> Stacy >>> >>> >> I think perhaps people were shocked by the volume. I am on several >> Macintosh related lists and at first I too was shocked but I realized, >> that's why they have mailing lists, to communicate with others who >> share your interest. Anyone who feels overwhelmed should try the >> digest version. Makes everything compact into one nifty email. >> >> The volume should decrease after the mailing list is split into threes. Be sure to read the rules. Reply at the bottom of quoted text (like this) and irrelevant material. This will help keep the list clean and easy to read, -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Jun 10 08:51:54 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 08:51:54 -0700 Subject: Not to be a jerk.... In-Reply-To: <295E8280.31BA6DA1.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020610085054.00a8db40@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:28 AM 6/10/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > > (My opinion) As such I also feel that thirty emails about spices in a > > Dragaera is absurd also(and I love to cook). > >Actually, there was more going on in those "spice" discussions than just >talking about spice. :) On the other hand, I could see creating yet another list: food at .... Maybe later. :-) From Starshadw at aol.com Mon Jun 10 09:00:16 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:00:16 -0400 Subject: Food List Message-ID: <30E18956.0E7A2788.0296E7C9@aol.com> In a message dated Mon, 10 Jun 2002 11:54:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > On the other hand, I could see creating yet another list: > food at .... Yummy.....although with my sulfite sensitivity and food allergies, my list of recipes that I can actually use has gone down drastically. -sighs- And I love to cook and collect cookbooks and recipes, too. Stacy From Beldarrin at aol.com Mon Jun 10 09:10:18 2002 From: Beldarrin at aol.com (Beldarrin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:10:18 -0400 Subject: To be a jerk... :) Message-ID: <4D6C777F.236664FD.0221815B@aol.com> Heh, since I seem to be not welcome here anyway (or at least that's the vibe I seem to unerringly be getting), I'll raise my hand and volunteer to be the jerk. Speaking for myself, I expected maybe 10, 20 at most, e-mails per day when I signed up for the mailing list, and I've been shocked at the number of e-mails swamping my poor little mailbox ever since. (Wouldn't some sort of a message board be more appropriate under the circumstances? That way at least we can sift through the topics and choose which ones we feel like subjecting ourselves to at any given moment.) I, too, was rather irritated with the pepper discussion and especially all the RPG discussion (after I decided it sounded far too time-consuming to suit my taste), and just wanted it to go away. And likewise, I'm sure many of you are not very happy with my random queries and ramblings. So... That is why I am all for the segmenting of the mailing list. Who has time to thoroughly (or even not-so-thoroughly) read like 50+ e-mails a day, especially when some of them are as lengthy as mine gnerally turn out to be? (Okay, someone be a smartass and chime in here.) While I'd love to be able to stay at home and check e-mails all day (okay, maybe no I wouldn't), it's simply not feasible for me, and apparently many others on this board, to do so. At first, I tried to keep up, then I just found it to be way too cumbersome. The problem is: Major lack of time! So, umm, there. Hope that sated your genuine curiosity. :) ~ Steph From Beldarrin at aol.com Mon Jun 10 09:13:32 2002 From: Beldarrin at aol.com (Beldarrin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:13:32 -0400 Subject: Food List Message-ID: <452FC6CC.7BCA56C6.0221815B@aol.com> Try being a vegan then. From Beldarrin at aol.com Mon Jun 10 09:10:22 2002 From: Beldarrin at aol.com (Beldarrin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:10:22 -0400 Subject: To be a jerk... :) Message-ID: <0B464459.0C2679CF.0221815B@aol.com> Heh, since I seem to be not welcome here anyway (or at least that's the vibe I seem to unerringly be getting), I'll raise my hand and volunteer to be the jerk. Speaking for myself, I expected maybe 10, 20 at most, e-mails per day when I signed up for the mailing list, and I've been shocked at the number of e-mails swamping my poor little mailbox ever since. (Wouldn't some sort of a message board be more appropriate under the circumstances? That way at least we can sift through the topics and choose which ones we feel like subjecting ourselves to at any given moment.) I, too, was rather irritated with the pepper discussion and especially all the RPG discussion (after I decided it sounded far too time-consuming to suit my taste), and just wanted it to go away. And likewise, I'm sure many of you are not very happy with my random queries and ramblings. So... That is why I am all for the segmenting of the mailing list. Who has time to thoroughly (or even not-so-thoroughly) read like 50+ e-mails a day, especially when some of them are as lengthy as mine gnerally turn out to be? (Okay, someone be a smartass and chime in here.) While I'd love to be able to stay at home and check e-mails all day (okay, maybe no I wouldn't), it's simply not feasible for me, and apparently many others on this board, to do so. At first, I tried to keep up, then I just found it to be way too cumbersome. The problem is: Major lack of time! So, umm, there. Hope that sated your genuine curiosity. :) ~ Steph From jtoth at megrez.org Mon Jun 10 09:17:41 2002 From: jtoth at megrez.org (Jim Toth) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:17:41 -0400 Subject: Not to be a jerk.... In-Reply-To: <3898432E-7C85-11D6-95C9-00039386187A@adelphia.net> References: <3898432E-7C85-11D6-95C9-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <20020610161741.GA24758@castor.megrez.org> On Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 11:17:47AM -0400, Chris Turkel (zizban at adelphia.net) said: > Be sure to read the rules. Reply at the bottom of quoted text (like > this) and irrelevant material. This will help keep the list clean > and easy to read, Let me weigh in as saying that both parts are important, but I think snipping is *far more* important...having to skip down a couple of pages of the bottom of a fairly long message just to read three lines is IMHO worse than top-posting. Some mailers make this easier than others, of course. -- Jim Toth jtoth at megrez.org Mostly lurking so far. From zizban at adelphia.net Mon Jun 10 09:09:54 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:09:54 -0400 Subject: Food List In-Reply-To: <30E18956.0E7A2788.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <804533B0-7C8C-11D6-95C9-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Monday, June 10, 2002, at 12:00 PM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated Mon, 10 Jun 2002 11:54:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > >> On the other hand, I could see creating yet another list: >> food at .... > > Yummy.....although with my sulfite sensitivity and food allergies, my > list of recipes that I can actually use has gone down drastically. > -sighs- And I love to cook and collect cookbooks and recipes, too. > > Stacy > > I make a killer french toast, does that count? ;-) -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From Starshadw at aol.com Mon Jun 10 09:42:22 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:42:22 -0400 Subject: To be a jerk... :) Message-ID: <03A65D19.744D838F.0296E7C9@aol.com> In a message dated Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:10:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Beldarrin writes: > Heh, since I seem to be not welcome here anyway (or at least that's the vibe I seem to unerringly be getting), I'll raise my hand and volunteer to be the jerk. Who says you're not welcome? I never got that impression at all! > I, too, was rather irritated with the pepper discussion and especially all the RPG discussion (after I decided it sounded far too time-consuming to suit my taste), and just wanted it to go away. And likewise, I'm sure many of you are not very happy with my random queries and ramblings. Once it's set up, it shouldn't be any more time-consuming for someone wanting to play than any offline RPG (I hope you'll join in). :) And I like all of your random queries as well as everyone else's. > Who has time to thoroughly (or even not-so-thoroughly) read like 50+ e-mails a day, especially when some of them are as lengthy as mine gnerally turn out to be? (Okay, someone be a smartass and chime in here.) I guess I'll be the smartass. :) 50+ Emails per day is LIGHT for me. Hence my confusion as to why some people are upset. I'm also a very fast reader, which helps with large mail volume. And I have access to a computer and my Email accounts pretty much all day since I work on a computer, so I can generally check it several times per day and keep things from exploding in my box. > So, umm, there. Hope that sated your genuine > curiosity. :) It helps. As I see it, we have two problems: 1. Volume, although I suspect this isn't the real problem. 2. Topics. Methinks if the topics were something you ("you" being used generally here and not specifically aimed) were interested in, the number of Emails on that topic wouldn't annoy you? It seems to me that people are confused as to what the mailing list is for. The official rules state: "On topic" material for this list includes general discussion among fans of Steven Brust, Paarfi, and the world of Dragaera; moderate amounts of "community" discussion; and such digressions as are more trouble to suppress than to ignore." which essentially means anything and everything is OK and acceptable within reason. I'm not sure what constitutes "moderate" amounts, but I would guess we haven't gone over it or we would have heard from the Lord of the Keys. :) Moderating lists/message boards/chatrooms is always subjective. As someone who has done said moderation for AOL since 1996, you don't want to squelch people, while at the same time not letting things get out of hand. It's a tough call, and the only thing that is certain is that you cannot please everyone (heh....you usually can't even please anyone). I think we all need to have some patience and understanding as the list(s) is/are still very new and so we are all in untested waters, swimming about and trying to see what floats and what sinks. Stacy, who likes everyone on this list and wants everyone to stay and be happy. :) From anthony at netdocuments.com Mon Jun 10 09:57:22 2002 From: anthony at netdocuments.com (Anthony Tedjamulia) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 10:57:22 -0600 Subject: Reflections on Issola Message-ID: So. . .when do you think Vlad's going to use Lady Teldra to "finalize" Zerika? From frank at exit.com Mon Jun 10 09:57:59 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 09:57:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reflections on Issola In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200206101657.g5AGvx4F000608@realtime.exit.com> Anthony Tedjamulia wrote: > So. . .when do you think Vlad's going to use Lady Teldra to "finalize" > Zerika? Um, never? My distinct impression is that Zerika (sp? can't check at the moment) peacefully steps down in favor of Norathar at the turn of the Cycle. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From Starshadw at aol.com Mon Jun 10 09:57:59 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:57:59 -0400 Subject: Reflections on Issola Message-ID: <7C320F93.0E1090B8.0296E7C9@aol.com> In a message dated Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:55:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, anthony at netdocuments.com writes: > > > So. . .when do you think Vlad's going to use Lady Teldra to > "finalize" > Zerika? Whoa. Where did that come from? Am I missing something? Stacy From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Jun 10 10:02:51 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:02:51 -0500 Subject: Reflections on Issola In-Reply-To: <7C320F93.0E1090B8.0296E7C9@aol.com> References: <7C320F93.0E1090B8.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020610170251.GB2051@infodancer.org> On Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 12:57:59PM -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:55:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, anthony at netdocuments.com writes: > > So. . .when do you think Vlad's going to use Lady Teldra to > > "finalize" Zerika? > Whoa. Where did that come from? Am I missing something? He keeps comparing himself unfavorably to Mario. Clearly he has a subconscious desire to even the score. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From ahovey at caris.com Mon Jun 10 10:11:18 2002 From: ahovey at caris.com (Adam Hovey) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 14:11:18 -0300 Subject: Reflections on Issola References: <7C320F93.0E1090B8.0296E7C9@aol.com> <20020610170251.GB2051@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <02f201c210a1$d6479630$b9c8a8c0@caris.priv> Does anybody else get these virus messages from Matthew Hunter?????? I've tried to tell him like four times now and they still get sent. Sorry to be completely off topic but it is my opinion that he since he never writes on here anyhow and only sends virus' that he should be removed fromt he list and sent a message telling him to clean up his PC and then re apply.....It may be mean but I am tired of getting these sent to me from him. Adam ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Hunter" To: Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 2:02 PM Subject: Re: Reflections on Issola From Raellew at aol.com Mon Jun 10 10:14:55 2002 From: Raellew at aol.com (Raellew at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 13:14:55 EDT Subject: [dragaera] Not to be a jerk.... Message-ID: <164.efd07a5.2a36388f@aol.com> I really do second whoever suggested using [dragaera] in the subject line. [List Name Here] seems standard practice, and it helps to separate out the spam. In a message dated 6/10/02, starshadw at aol.com writes: >Ummmm.....I have to ask: What exactly were you (and others who have >complained about the number of Emails) expecting? It -is- a mailing list, >after all. Did you simply think you would only get one or two Emails per >week? Per day? And what would make you think that? I haven't seen a >mailing list yet that had that few Emails: probably because the few that did >ended up closing down due to lack of interest. Well, yes. I've seen plenty of lists that get only a few emails a week -- a few emails a *month* -- and was expecting this to be one of them. I'm happy it isn't. In a message dated 6/10/02, Rachael Lininger writes: >Hmm. You're using AOL, so what applies to everyone else probably won't >apply to you. I'd suggest checking with AOL about mail filtering. > >If you have some method available for sorting spam out into separate >folders, you could sort out "dragaera at dragaera.info" posts that aren't >Steve. And if Steve hasn't quoted sufficiently, you can check the >previous emails in the archive. The best you can do with AOL is make a list of addresses you *can* receive mail from, or a list of addresses you *can't* receive mail from. It isn't terribly useful. I remember when I first got online, lo these many years ago, I tried putting every single address I got spam from on the second list. Heh. Shockingly, it didn't work. Rae From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Jun 10 10:15:13 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:15:13 -0500 Subject: Reflections on Issola In-Reply-To: <02f201c210a1$d6479630$b9c8a8c0@caris.priv> References: <7C320F93.0E1090B8.0296E7C9@aol.com> <20020610170251.GB2051@infodancer.org> <02f201c210a1$d6479630$b9c8a8c0@caris.priv> Message-ID: <20020610171513.GD2051@infodancer.org> On Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 02:11:18PM -0300, Adam Hovey wrote: > Does anybody else get these virus messages from Matthew Hunter?????? I've > tried to tell him like four times now and they still get sent. > > Sorry to be completely off topic but it is my opinion that he since he never > writes on here anyhow and only sends virus' that he should be removed fromt > he list and sent a message telling him to clean up his PC and then re > apply.....It may be mean but I am tired of getting these sent to me from > him. Excuse me while I cackle insanely now. My messages are cryptographically signed by GPG. They are NOT virus-infected. Adam's mail client, and/or virus-scanning mail server, is broken. Badly. I have received no messages (on the list or otherwise) from Adam, so clearly the breakage is present in more than one way. I will leave the cryptographic signature off of this message so Adam can read it. Hi Adam. Please fix your mail client. Thanks. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From frank at exit.com Mon Jun 10 10:16:48 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 10:16:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [dragaera] Not to be a jerk.... In-Reply-To: <164.efd07a5.2a36388f@aol.com> Message-ID: <200206101716.g5AHGmOk045045@realtime.exit.com> Raellew at aol.com wrote: > I really do second whoever suggested using [dragaera] in the subject line. > [List Name Here] seems standard practice, and it helps to separate out the > spam. Mailman does that automatically. David, can ezmlm do this as well? It would be useful. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Jun 10 10:18:36 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:18:36 -0500 Subject: [dragaera] Not to be a jerk.... In-Reply-To: <164.efd07a5.2a36388f@aol.com> References: <164.efd07a5.2a36388f@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020610171836.GE2051@infodancer.org> On Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 01:14:55PM -0400, Raellew at aol.com wrote: > I really do second whoever suggested using [dragaera] in the subject line. > [List Name Here] seems standard practice, and it helps to separate out the > spam. Dear God Please No. It may be common, but is not standard, and entirely unnecessary. You can filter messages into their own folder with almost every mail client available WITHOUT any need to waste 11 characters of a 70-character Subject: header. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From singram at videotron.ca Mon Jun 10 10:25:12 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 13:25:12 -0400 Subject: Not to be a jerk.... References: <295E8280.31BA6DA1.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <001701c210a3$c7531620$17ecca18@ingram> > Ummmm.....I have to ask: What exactly were you (and others who have complained about the number of Emails) expecting? It -is- a mailing list, after all. Did you simply think you would only get one or two Emails per week? Per day? And what would make you think that? I haven't seen a mailing list yet that had that few Emails: probably because the few that did ended up closing down due to lack of interest. I'm not trying to be argumentative; I'm genuinely curious. As others have stated, the volume of conversation is quite surprising. I wasn't sure what to expect, but judging from the volume of messages that were on the webboard when I joined up, I expected only a few emails per day. Oh well, I find they're quite easy to sift through. I don't know how AOL's email reader works, but Outlook Express rules make organizing the mails quite simple. As I said, quite an influx of messages. I'm glad to see that Steve has so many interested readers, however. -Scott Ingram From zizban at adelphia.net Mon Jun 10 10:08:19 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 13:08:19 -0400 Subject: Athyras Ebay Message-ID: Someone was looking for Athyra. There are two on Ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1542532280 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1542764711 -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From singram at videotron.ca Mon Jun 10 10:30:58 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 13:30:58 -0400 Subject: [dragaera] Mathew Hunter References: <164.efd07a5.2a36388f@aol.com> <20020610171836.GE2051@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <003b01c210a4$95913e40$17ecca18@ingram> Dunno what mail client Mathew is using, but the body of his emails always arrives at an attached .txt document and his PHP signature as an attached .dat document. It's not a virus... it's just his wacky opensource security stuff. :) I can't blame Adam for being wary of email attachments from 'strangers' however. From jbdelong at uclink.berkeley.edu Mon Jun 10 10:31:36 2002 From: jbdelong at uclink.berkeley.edu (Bradford DeLong) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 10:31:36 -0700 Subject: Stupid Vlad? (was Re: "The time has come, the Walrus said) Message-ID: >At 12:21 PM 6/8/2002 +0200, Sander wrote: >>Steven Brust wrote: >>> You keep forgetting that Vlad is an idiot. >> >>This intrigues me. Do you really see Vlad as an idiot? > >Really? No. He's pretty smart. But there are things he's >incapable of seeing, and he's too arrogant about what he does know >to consider that some of it might be wrong. Methinks our author has thrown his gauntlet down in front of the list, and has challenged us to... ...come up with a list of the ten most important things Vlad knows that are wrong. ...come up with a list of the ten most important things Vlad is incapable of seeing. ...come up with a list of the ten biggest lies that Paarfi has told us. Brad DeLong From ahovey at caris.com Mon Jun 10 10:36:15 2002 From: ahovey at caris.com (Adam Hovey) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 14:36:15 -0300 Subject: [dragaera] Mathew Hunter References: <164.efd07a5.2a36388f@aol.com> <20020610171836.GE2051@infodancer.org> <003b01c210a4$95913e40$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: <032601c210a5$52932b20$b9c8a8c0@caris.priv> Aye, true one can't be too careful, however I was a bit out of line, and as such I have apolgized to Matthew for it. Consider this my public one as well. Sorry Matthew. Adam ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Ingram" To: Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 2:30 PM Subject: [dragaera] Mathew Hunter Dunno what mail client Mathew is using, but the body of his emails always arrives at an attached .txt document and his PHP signature as an attached .dat document. It's not a virus... it's just his wacky opensource security stuff. :) I can't blame Adam for being wary of email attachments from 'strangers' however. From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Jun 10 10:38:12 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:38:12 -0500 Subject: [dragaera] Mathew Hunter In-Reply-To: <003b01c210a4$95913e40$17ecca18@ingram> References: <164.efd07a5.2a36388f@aol.com> <20020610171836.GE2051@infodancer.org> <003b01c210a4$95913e40$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: <20020610173812.GG2051@infodancer.org> On Mon, Jun 10, 2002 at 01:30:58PM -0400, Scott Ingram wrote: > Dunno what mail client Mathew is using, but the body of his emails always > arrives at an attached .txt document and his PHP signature as an attached > .dat document. Mutt with GPG. The behavior you are describing is a bug in a common Microsoft mail client. The more recent versions display signed emails correctly. I really should collect a URL with an explanation and instructions on how to fix the problem. > It's not a virus... it's just his wacky opensource security stuff. :) > I can't blame Adam for being wary of email attachments from 'strangers' > however. Being wary of attachments from strangers is one thing; having mail software that replaces valid messages with "virus" is, well, a couple steps beyond that. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From dragaera at juima.org Mon Jun 10 11:01:07 2002 From: dragaera at juima.org (Sander) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 20:01:07 +0200 Subject: [dragaera] Mathew Hunter References: <7C320F93.0E1090B8.0296E7C9@aol.com> <20020610170251.GB2051@infodancer.org> <02f201c210a1$d6479630$b9c8a8c0@caris.priv> <20020610171513.GD2051@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <3D04E963.5060706@juima.org> Matthew Hunter wrote: > My messages are cryptographically signed by GPG. They are NOT > virus-infected. Adam's mail client, and/or virus-scanning mail > server, is broken. Badly. *chuckles heartily* Since Enigmail (the 'plugin' for Mozilla that allows you to use GPG) finally is capable of PGP/MIME as well, I was planning to start signing all my email by default. Now I think I'd better refrain from doing so for a while longer - at least on lists where people are using YACMSP :) May you always find shade and water, Sander From tyan at twcny.rr.com Mon Jun 10 11:04:15 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 14:04:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Digest option + RASFW In-Reply-To: (message from David Dyer-Bennet on 10 Jun 2002 00:37:15 -0500) References: Message-ID: <200206101804.g5AI4FeX000388@localhost.twcny.rr.com> David Dyer-Bennet wrote on 10 Jun 2002 00:37:15 > > "Joe Lynch" writes: > > > p.s. And as for list volume- try the digest option if you haven't > > noticed it before...I quickly switched after getting 50 emails in > > one day. :) The volume surprised me, too. I know that different mailing lists have different characteristics, but I wasn't expecting this one to be so active without a new book having come out. > I really need to make that more prominent on the web page for the > list. I'll keep it in mind for when I'm creating the new lists, which > seems like it's going to happen. Note that it is currently set to send a digest if 30 e-mails accumulates, so it is possible to get multiple digests in one day, which has already happened since I switched to the digest. Note also that some mail programs might not have good support for digests, most notably a way of 'undigestify'ing a digest into individual email messages so that: + You can filter messages in a digest just like any other e-mail, e.g. to direct Steve's replies to a special inbox. + You can skip messages you're not interested in. + You can easily skip the rest of a message that contains spoilers. (If you read the entire digest as a text file and are manually trying to scroll past spoiled text, you have squint or block part of the screen to avoid reading the spoilers.) + You can reply to an individual message, with appropriate attribution (name of the sender) and quoting. Beldarrin at aol.com wrote on Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:10:18 > > Heh, since I seem to be not welcome here anyway (or at least >that's the vibe I seem to unerringly be getting), I'll raise my hand >and volunteer to be the jerk. I haven't got any vibes that anyone here is not welcome. > Speaking for myself, I expected maybe 10, 20 at most, e-mails >per day when I signed up for the mailing list, and I've been shocked >at the number of e-mails swamping my poor little mailbox ever since. >(Wouldn't some sort of a message board be more appropriate under the >circumstances? That way at least we can sift through the topics and >choose which ones we feel like subjecting ourselves to at any given >moment.) -snip- You can always try to skip some messages, and a good mail program should let you do filtering, but I have to admit that I don't do any filtering on my e-mail. But it is sentiments like the above that make me fond of newsgroups, including rec.arts.sf.written (RASFW), which does discuss Brust from time to time. As its name suggests, rasfw has a broader focus than this mailing list, which has its pluses and minuses. A good newsreader lets you easily: + auto-delete or auto-select articles with a given Subject + auto-delete or auto-select articles from a given author + delete (for today or forever) an article and all replies to it etc. And one thing I'm still need to learn, is that if there are many posts I'm not interested in, it is ok to be over-aggressive in (auto-)deleting subjects and authors and miss *some* interesting posts as long as a high enough fraction of the remaining posts keep me interested and happy. ( It's going to be interesting for me to when a new book comes out and I'll have to choose whether to post here or rasfw or both. I suspect I'll tend to choose rasfw because I'm more proficient at using my newsreader than I am at using my mailer. ) - tky From mporter at rogers.com Mon Jun 10 11:11:56 2002 From: mporter at rogers.com (Mark Porter) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 14:11:56 -0400 Subject: Food List Message-ID: <007c01c210aa$4eb27c40$59a97218@slnt.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> >On Monday, June 10, 2002, at 12:00 PM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >Yummy.....although with my sulfite sensitivity and food allergies, my >list of recipes that I can actually use has gone down drastically. >-sighs- And I love to cook and collect cookbooks and recipes, too. Ah, my sympathies. Having what many refer to as an Iron Stomach, but also having plenty of friends who also have many allergies and sensitivities to food, I know the difficulty in finding acceptable recipes, since I usually do all the cooking for them. I know /I/ wouldn't mine seeing a Food List. Mostly because I enjoy creating recipes, and there are plenty of meals in the Dragaera books to give us a start. That dessert that Mario eats in the Silver Shadow sounds absolutely delicious. ;-) ___________________________ Mark Porter Canada's Answer to Alan Greenspan From scs at di.org Mon Jun 10 11:52:14 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 14:52:14 -0400 Subject: Some available (and unavailable) books . . . Message-ID: <20020610185214.GA2675@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Please pardon the crass commecialism, but all these people mentioning ludicrous prices for books reminded me. Much to my surprise I find myself with two extra Brust books -- my original pb copies of `The Phoenix Guards' and `Five Hundred Years After' both found their way home after many years in a friends basement. I replaced both some years back and the friends basement was, well, kind of musty. So if you don't mind slightly smelly copies, send me $5.00 and they're both yours. I'll cover shipping. Steve -- is Athyra going to be re-issued in an Omnibus? On a related note, I'm continually astonished at the prices asked for first editions of `To Reign In Hell.' ABE currently shows four copies offered at prices from $400 to $550. Whew... glad I got that one when it was new. For those interested, ABE is at http://dogbert.abebooks.com/abe/BookSearch. I am not affiliated with, ya-da, ya-da. Steve From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Jun 10 12:21:03 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 10 Jun 2002 14:21:03 -0500 Subject: Not to be a jerk.... In-Reply-To: <172.9792ac7.2a360db1@aol.com> References: <172.9792ac7.2a360db1@aol.com> Message-ID: Sams0n at aol.com writes: > But I have to admit....I'm shallow and thrifty with my time..and with the > logical talk of reducing the mails through different lists...is there a way > to only get Mr. Brust's contributions to the list? That's all that my > shallow, limited-wit, unkind self really wants to read. Not via email, but the online web archive has the ability to show messages by author, and you can bookmark the URL to show messages by Steven. It's http://dragaera.info/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?aas:354:jmikhcjlblbeaehdleep#b -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Jun 10 12:25:34 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 10 Jun 2002 14:25:34 -0500 Subject: Not to be a jerk.... In-Reply-To: <001701c210a3$c7531620$17ecca18@ingram> References: <295E8280.31BA6DA1.0296E7C9@aol.com> <001701c210a3$c7531620$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: "Scott Ingram" writes: > > Ummmm.....I have to ask: What exactly were you (and others who have > complained about the number of Emails) expecting? It -is- a mailing list, > after all. Did you simply think you would only get one or two Emails per > week? Per day? And what would make you think that? I haven't seen a > mailing list yet that had that few Emails: probably because the few that did > ended up closing down due to lack of interest. I'm not trying to be > argumentative; I'm genuinely curious. > > As others have stated, the volume of conversation is quite surprising. I > wasn't sure what to expect, but judging from the volume of messages that > were on the webboard when I joined up, I expected only a few emails per day. Yeah, it's certainly grown fast. I checked subscriber counts the first three days after we announced the list, and got 22, 25, and 80. We're probably over 100 now (last I actually counted it was 96). And then it took a while for topics to get introduced that really brought people into the discussion. Getting the list in digest form can help keep the number of messages in the mailbox down, anyway (of course the same total traffic ends up arriving). > Oh well, I find they're quite easy to sift through. I don't know how AOL's > email reader works, but Outlook Express rules make organizing the mails > quite simple. Sorting into folders by mailing list is IMHO the winning strategy. I'm on a few dozen lists on topics ranging from black-and-white digital photo printing to science fiction convention running to Linux, and most of them generate a few dozen messages a day, and nearly every week there's at least one of them that's having a spike and generating over 100. Some messages I skim more superficially than others :-). -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Jun 10 12:27:34 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 10 Jun 2002 14:27:34 -0500 Subject: Food List In-Reply-To: <007c01c210aa$4eb27c40$59a97218@slnt.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> References: <007c01c210aa$4eb27c40$59a97218@slnt.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: "Mark Porter" writes: > >On Monday, June 10, 2002, at 12:00 PM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > >Yummy.....although with my sulfite sensitivity and food allergies, my > >list of recipes that I can actually use has gone down drastically. > >-sighs- And I love to cook and collect cookbooks and recipes, too. > > Ah, my sympathies. Having what many refer to as an Iron Stomach, but also > having plenty of friends who also have many allergies and sensitivities to > food, I know the difficulty in finding acceptable recipes, since I usually > do all the cooking for them. > > I know /I/ wouldn't mine seeing a Food List. Mostly because I enjoy > creating recipes, and there are plenty of meals in the Dragaera books to > give us a start. A recipes section on the web site is planned, but there's this grandiose content management plan I have to finish implementing before we can start opening up such sections. Might do an associated mailing list, if that seemed of interest. (I will *not* hint at any dates for this. There's too much stuff that isn't routine for me that I have to make work before we can start opening sections of the web site.) -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Jun 10 12:31:42 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 10 Jun 2002 14:31:42 -0500 Subject: To be a jerk... :) In-Reply-To: <4D6C777F.236664FD.0221815B@aol.com> References: <4D6C777F.236664FD.0221815B@aol.com> Message-ID: Beldarrin at aol.com writes: > So... That is why I am all for the segmenting of the mailing > list. Who has time to thoroughly (or even not-so-thoroughly) > read like 50+ e-mails a day, especially when some of them are > as lengthy as mine gnerally turn out to be? (Okay, someone be > a smartass and chime in here.) While I'd love to be able to > stay at home and check e-mails all day (okay, maybe no I > wouldn't), it's simply not feasible for me, and apparently many > others on this board, to do so. At first, I tried to keep up, > then I just found it to be way too cumbersome. The problem is: > Major lack of time! Priorities and such, or something. I read well over 500 messages a day, myself. Probably closer to 1000; I don't bother to count exactly. Have most days in the last 15 years, too. This is not a particularly active mailing list, by Internet mailing list standards. Nor by Usenet newsgroup standards. Really. Getting it in digest form can make it seem like less (fewer interruptions, anyway; it'd arrive once a day I believe). Having your mail program sort it into its own folder is the way most people handle mailing lists these days; then you go in and read it when you have time. And most mailers can sort by subject or thread or sender, and some can even do complex "scoring" where it decides which messages you want to see first based on criteria you give it. And you can browse the web archive, by author, thread, or date, too. I wouldn't want to make people less interested in the topic, so I don't think we can do anything about the overall volume, though. Other than making a few splits now and then, as they seem worth making. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Jun 10 12:36:41 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 10 Jun 2002 14:36:41 -0500 Subject: [dragaera] Mathew Hunter In-Reply-To: <3D04E963.5060706@juima.org> References: <7C320F93.0E1090B8.0296E7C9@aol.com> <20020610170251.GB2051@infodancer.org> <02f201c210a1$d6479630$b9c8a8c0@caris.priv> <20020610171513.GD2051@infodancer.org> <3D04E963.5060706@juima.org> Message-ID: Sander writes: > Matthew Hunter wrote: > > My messages are cryptographically signed by GPG. They are NOT > > virus-infected. Adam's mail client, and/or virus-scanning mail > > server, is broken. Badly. > > *chuckles heartily* > Since Enigmail (the 'plugin' for Mozilla that allows you to use GPG) > finally is capable of PGP/MIME as well, I was planning to start > signing all my email by default. Now I think I'd better refrain from > doing so for a while longer - at least on lists where people are using > YACMSP :) It could also be partly my fault; the list is configured to remove mime parts other than text/plain, and possibly the result when it takes a "multipart/signed" and removes the signature part may not be valid; or may be valid but unusual and enough to confuse programs. (Looking at Matthew's messages after passing through the list, the header says they are "multipart/signed" but there are no boundaries within the message.) -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Jun 10 12:38:11 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 10 Jun 2002 14:38:11 -0500 Subject: [dragaera] Not to be a jerk.... In-Reply-To: <164.efd07a5.2a36388f@aol.com> References: <164.efd07a5.2a36388f@aol.com> Message-ID: Raellew at aol.com writes: > I really do second whoever suggested using [dragaera] in the subject line. > [List Name Here] seems standard practice, and it helps to separate out the > spam. Not gonna happen. There are numerous other headers that already uniquely identify the list; most particularly, "Mailing-list:". Filter on that to your heart's content. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Jun 10 12:40:36 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 10 Jun 2002 14:40:36 -0500 Subject: Digest option + RASFW In-Reply-To: <200206101804.g5AI4FeX000388@localhost.twcny.rr.com> References: <200206101804.g5AI4FeX000388@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) writes: > But it is sentiments like the above that make me fond of newsgroups, > including rec.arts.sf.written (RASFW), which does discuss Brust from > time to time. As its name suggests, rasfw has a broader focus than > this mailing list, which has its pluses and minuses. A good > newsreader lets you easily: > > + auto-delete or auto-select articles with a given Subject > + auto-delete or auto-select articles from a given author > + delete (for today or forever) an article and all replies to it > etc. > > And one thing I'm still need to learn, is that if there are many posts > I'm not interested in, it is ok to be over-aggressive in > (auto-)deleting subjects and authors and miss *some* interesting posts > as long as a high enough fraction of the remaining posts keep me > interested and happy. > > ( > It's going to be interesting for me to when a new book comes out and > I'll have to choose whether to post here or rasfw or both. I suspect > I'll tend to choose rasfw because I'm more proficient at using my > newsreader than I am at using my mailer. > ) In my case, I read both mailing lists and newsgroups with the same tool, so I do the same kind of scoring and sorting on both. Very handy. (gnus) -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From frank at exit.com Mon Jun 10 12:31:33 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:31:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Digest option + RASFW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200206101931.g5AJVXXi053850@realtime.exit.com> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > In my case, I read both mailing lists and newsgroups with the same > tool, so I do the same kind of scoring and sorting on both. Very > handy. (gnus) I'll bet you use emacs, too, don't you? :-) -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Jun 10 12:43:56 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 10 Jun 2002 14:43:56 -0500 Subject: Some available (and unavailable) books . . . In-Reply-To: <20020610185214.GA2675@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20020610185214.GA2675@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: Steve Simmons writes: > On a related note, I'm continually astonished at the prices asked for > first editions of `To Reign In Hell.' ABE currently shows four copies > offered at prices from $400 to $550. Whew... glad I got that one when > it was new. Note that that price range is for the first-edition hardcover, from Steeldragon Press. It's a very nice package (we have I think three of them in the house here at the moment). It's illustrated by Kathy Marschall (whose name bears some resemblance to the name of a fictional artist mentioned in the Dragaera books...), and they're all signed. (One interesting aspect of Steven's signature is that it's so illegible to begin with that the difference from the start to the end of the print run isn't as great as one might expect.) I'll bet the Ace paperback is much cheaper. And of course it's currently in print from, I think, Orb (Tor's keep-stuff-in-print line), so you don't need to pay the $500 unless you're a collector. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Jun 10 12:49:19 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 10 Jun 2002 14:49:19 -0500 Subject: Digest option + RASFW In-Reply-To: <200206101931.g5AJVXXi053850@realtime.exit.com> References: <200206101931.g5AJVXXi053850@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: Frank Mayhar writes: > David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > In my case, I read both mailing lists and newsgroups with the same > > tool, so I do the same kind of scoring and sorting on both. Very > > handy. (gnus) > > I'll bet you use emacs, too, don't you? > > :-) Very clever guess! (Since that's where gnus runs...) In fact, I've considered Emacs to be the most wonderful text manipulation tool around since 1981, when I started using Stallman's original ITS Emacs (written in TECO) on a DECSYSTEM-20 (it could run ITS software becuase the underlying hardware is the same, and there's a software package called the "incompatibility package" that emulates the ITS system calls on TOPS-20). Since then I've used Gosling's Emacs and now Stallman's GNU Emacs, plus various Emacs-like editors including Jove, Amis, Fine, Epsilon, and various configurable editors set to their emacs-like modes, including Microsoft Visual Studio and Borland Sprint. I've even got Microsoft Word configured for the basic cursor movement commands; I do them so automatically I'm often 6 commands down the sequence before I notice the program isn't doing what I said. It as a *great* day for me when I found that GNU emacs could build for Windows and run natively! -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From singram at videotron.ca Mon Jun 10 13:10:39 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 16:10:39 -0400 Subject: Digest option + RASFW References: <200206101804.g5AI4FeX000388@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <001301c210ba$e47109d0$17ecca18@ingram> > > But it is sentiments like the above that make me fond of newsgroups, > > including rec.arts.sf.written (RASFW), which does discuss Brust from RASFW, ugh. Love the topic, even subscribe to it, but (yes, I'm a weenie) there's a huge volume of messages in there, most of which about authors I'm not familiar with, so I barely ever read it, as it is a pain to sort through them. If you want to get all the good Brust stuff from RASFW, cut and paste this link into your browser: http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search?q=group:rec.arts.sf.written+a uthor:Brust&hl=en From tyan at twcny.rr.com Mon Jun 10 13:58:37 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 16:58:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: To be a jerk... :) In-Reply-To: (message from David Dyer-Bennet on 10 Jun 2002 14:31:42 -0500) References: Message-ID: <200206102058.g5AKwbrN000553@localhost.twcny.rr.com> David Dyer-Bennet wrote on 10 Jun 2002 14:31:42 -snip- > Getting it in digest form can make it seem like less (fewer > interruptions, anyway; it'd arrive once a day I believe). -snip- Nope. Apparently in addition to a daily check, it also checks after each message to see if 30 unsent messages have accumulated. I've already received 2 digests today. ( I'm in the process of switching to a new newsreader -- I want to be able to attach expiration dates to all of my auto-select and auto-kill entries. RASFF has so much topic drift, I want to be able to kill off a sub-thread for 3 days or a week and then resample the subthreads. Lured by the promise of reading e-mail much as I do newsgroups, I played around with Gnus a little bit, but my initial impression of the interface wasn't favorable. Undoubtedly it is configurable up the wazoo, so maybe in principle it could be set up to make me happy, but that looks like too much work for now. I've managed to install slrn on my iLamp, so I'll play with that and see how it goes. But threaded e-mail does sound very attractive.... ) - tky From scs at di.org Mon Jun 10 14:13:33 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 17:13:33 -0400 Subject: Nicknaming the books Message-ID: <20020610211333.GA4943@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> A suggestion for Steve - You've had a habit of nicknaming your books. While it's probably too late, might I suggest the next volume be The Discount of Adam Lankhmar? -- "Every time I see [name deleted], I get the urge to drop my pants and water him. I'm hoping he'll either grow up or take the hint." -me From jbdelong at uclink.berkeley.edu Mon Jun 10 14:32:40 2002 From: jbdelong at uclink.berkeley.edu (Bradford DeLong) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 14:32:40 -0700 Subject: Stupid Vlad? (was Re: "The time has come, the Walrus said) Message-ID: >At 12:21 PM 6/8/2002 +0200, Sander wrote: >>Steven Brust wrote: >>> You keep forgetting that Vlad is an idiot. >> >>This intrigues me. Do you really see Vlad as an idiot? > >Really? No. He's pretty smart. But there are things he's >incapable of seeing, and he's too arrogant about what he does know >to consider that some of it might be wrong. Methinks our author has thrown his gauntlet down in front of the list, and has challenged us to... ...come up with a list of the ten most important things Vlad knows that are wrong. ...come up with a list of the ten most important things Vlad is incapable of seeing. ...come up with a list of the ten biggest lies that Paarfi has told us. Brad DeLong From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Jun 10 15:58:22 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 10 Jun 2002 17:58:22 -0500 Subject: META: proposed rules for onlinerpg list Message-ID: <1023749902.25837.TMDA@dd-b.net> Here's my current draft of the rules, based on Stacy's draft, based on the rules of the Dragaera list. Anything seriously wrong (either nonsense, or not what people intended) please let me know soon. Welcome to the Dragaera Onlinerpg Mailing List Version 0.1 10-Jun-2002 This list is to provide a central forum for those interested in the online Dragaera RPG being created by some fans (the idea got started on the Dragaera List, ). Steven has given permission to those interested to create and run an online RPG based on his Dragaera world. This is already in the works and a website is pending (and hopefully will be up and running NLT June 14, 2002 although it may take a little longer before the RPG itself is ready to start). Day-to-day operation is handled by the "Empress" (reference should be obvious). All decisions of the Empress are final until she changes her mind. The current [8-Jun-2002] empress is Stacy, . "On topic" material for this list includes all discussions related to the Dragaera RPG. This includes rules discussions, campaign plots, etc. but will NOT include any "in-character" emails, journals, etc. Also acceptable are moderate amounts of "community" off-topic discussion; and such digressions as are more trouble to suppress than to ignore. Be aware that the main purpose of the list is to provide a place for discussion until the message board on the website is up and running. This means that if you only subscribe to this list, you may be missing a great deal of discussion. This discussion must be conducted reasonably civilly. In particular, personal attacks and flaming are forbidden. Do NOT tell somebody that they're a poo-poo head; you may, if you wish, tell them that their claim to have found Devera on page 184 of Dragon doesn't stand up to examination. When replying to a message on the list, relevant portions of the previous message should be quoted. The *entire* message should generally not be quoted, unless you're responding to each bit of it. New material should be placed *below* the old material it's responding to, not above. In other words, normal Usenet quoting conventions should be observed. Line lengths should be limited to less than 80 characters (70 is a better number, to allow for some buildup of quoting). Do not send file attachments to the list. Especially, do not send binary files to the list. Do not send HTML to the list. Send plain text messages to the list. All those other things will be stripped off by the software running the list. (Technicalities: MIME multipart/alternative is fine, so long as there is a text/plain part; that part will be passed through and the rest stripped.) (AOL users: that's what current AOL software does by default [as of 15-Apr-2002] so you shouldn't have trouble posting). The views expressed in messages on this list may be the views of the people who sent the messages (or their evil twins -- we don't discriminate here); they are *not* the official views of anybody else. Note that this applies even to Stacy and those of us running the list -- unless specifically stated otherwise, we're posting our personal opinions, not Official Truth. While Steven doesn't hate fan fiction on principle, he doesn't want to host it on the official web site or mailing lists, so please don't send any. Hence the "in-character" rule above. The information about the subscribers that we have (from the email headers; name and email address) will be posted to the list monthly, so people know with whom they are talking. The posts to this list are archived and are publicly available via email and on the web. Only list members may post to this list (this is primarily a spam-prevention measure). To subscribe, send email to , and respond to the confirmation message you will receive. (The confirmation message makes it much harder for somebody to subscribe you to this list as a "joke".) To unsubscribe, send email to >from the address you want unsubscribed, and respond to the confirmation message you will receive there. To send your message to all the subscribers on the list, send it to . You must be a subscriber to the list yourself to do this. To communicate just with the Empress, email your message to . To get help on the various commands the list management software supports, send email to . (Technicalities: this list is run using ezmlm+idx). (You can get messages from the archive via email, and there's a digest version of the list you can switch to if you prefer to get fewer messages.) The home page for this list is http://dragaera.info/onlinerpg-list/. There will be a Dragaera online RPG site when the people working on it get it ready, and the URL will be included here when it's available. This mailing list is utimately the property of the dragaera.info website team, Corwin Brust, David Dyer-Bennet, Felix Strates, and Steven Brust. Control has been delegated to Stacy . -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Jun 10 16:54:46 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 16:54:46 -0700 Subject: Some available (and unavailable) books . . . In-Reply-To: <20020610185214.GA2675@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020610165419.00a74330@pop3.lvcm.com> At 02:52 PM 6/10/2002 -0400, Steve Simmons wrote: >Steve -- is Athyra going to be re-issued in an Omnibus? Yes, but I'm not sure when. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Jun 10 17:04:57 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 17:04:57 -0700 Subject: Nicknaming the books In-Reply-To: <20020610211333.GA4943@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020610170405.00a79a80@pop3.lvcm.com> At 05:13 PM 6/10/2002 -0400, Steve Simmons wrote: >A suggestion for Steve - > >You've had a habit of nicknaming your books. While it's probably too >late, might I suggest the next volume be The Discount of Adam Lankhmar? Not bad, not bad. From yhcrana13 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 10 17:56:05 2002 From: yhcrana13 at hotmail.com (A. Nonymous) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 19:56:05 -0500 Subject: Nicknaming the books Message-ID: This brings up something I've wanted to know for a while. I've seen several of the books refered to by nickname in interviews, but never the whole list, would you be so kind as to enlighten us, Steve? _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Jun 10 18:45:38 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 18:45:38 -0700 Subject: Nicknaming the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020610184250.00a76ec0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 07:56 PM 6/10/2002 -0500, A. Nonymous wrote: >This brings up something I've wanted to know for a while. > >I've seen several of the books refered to by nickname in interviews, but >never the whole list, would you be so kind as to enlighten us, Steve? Jar-head The Rain in Spain Yentil Ripple Tacky Crosby, Stills, & Nash Milquetoast Shit Happens Tucson The Kleenex Guards Aw, Gee Urethra Five Hundred Beers After Porker Drag Queen Is Ole Some of them are obvious; the rest are left as an exercise for the reader. :-) From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Jun 10 19:01:08 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 10 Jun 2002 21:01:08 -0500 Subject: To be a jerk... :) In-Reply-To: <200206102058.g5AKwbrN000553@localhost.twcny.rr.com> References: <200206102058.g5AKwbrN000553@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) writes: > David Dyer-Bennet wrote on 10 Jun 2002 14:31:42 > -snip- > > Getting it in digest form can make it seem like less (fewer > > interruptions, anyway; it'd arrive once a day I believe). > -snip- > > Nope. Apparently in addition to a daily check, it also checks after > each message to see if 30 unsent messages have accumulated. I've > already received 2 digests today. Ah. I must have misunderstood that part of the program. In that case it actually makes sense for me to consider what size digests I should send out; I'd left the default values since I thought the daily trigger was the only time it checked. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From lisa at spindot.com Mon Jun 10 19:11:38 2002 From: lisa at spindot.com (Lisa Grant Coffin) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:11:38 -0400 Subject: [dragaera] Mathew Hunter References: <7C320F93.0E1090B8.0296E7C9@aol.com> <20020610170251.GB2051@infodancer.org> <02f201c210a1$d6479630$b9c8a8c0@caris.priv> <20020610171513.GD2051@infodancer.org> <3D04E963.5060706@juima.org> Message-ID: <005301c210ed$52347ba0$1401a8c0@Spencer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sander" To: "Dragaera list" Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 2:01 PM Subject: Re: [dragaera] Mathew Hunter > Matthew Hunter wrote: > > My messages are cryptographically signed by GPG. They are NOT > > virus-infected. Adam's mail client, and/or virus-scanning mail > > server, is broken. Badly. > > *chuckles heartily* > Since Enigmail (the 'plugin' for Mozilla that allows you to use GPG) > finally is capable of PGP/MIME as well, I was planning to start signing > all my email by default. Now I think I'd better refrain from doing so > for a while longer - at least on lists where people are using YACMSP :) just for the record, matthew's emails come as attachments to me as well. i have been glad to see his discussions quoted, otherwise i wouldn't have known what he sent the list. excepting the last two, of course. lisa grant coffin who doesn't mind the mail at all, but admits to skimming the rpg stuff...... From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Mon Jun 10 19:15:40 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 21:15:40 -0500 Subject: how accurate is cracks and shards really? Message-ID: I've been wondering exactly how accurate most of Mark Mandel's analysis about Dragaera is. Not so much if his exact conclusions are correct but if he hasn't missed any very important details before getting to them. If you've not seen it his page is http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ You'd think there is at least a high level of validity; it is after all a direct link from Dreamcafe.com Anyway what are the opinions out there? - Angelo " I'll see you in court." Tripp-Russo From lisa at spindot.com Mon Jun 10 19:22:57 2002 From: lisa at spindot.com (Lisa Grant Coffin) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:22:57 -0400 Subject: how accurate is cracks and shards really? References: Message-ID: <009a01c210ee$e71a5a40$1401a8c0@Spencer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gametech" To: Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 10:15 PM Subject: how accurate is cracks and shards really? >I've been wondering exactly how accurate most of Mark Mandel's analysis about >Dragaera is. Not so much if his exact conclusions are correct but if he hasn't >missed any very important details before getting to them. >Anyway what are the opinions out there? i was actually wondering something about the speculation as well. i haven't seen a reference in the books that indicate Brigitta is Cawti's mother. yet it's on the list. where did i miss that? okay, not everyone yell at me at once ;) lisa grant coffin who could use some help on getting the responses Usenet Style like everyone like them. From singram at videotron.ca Mon Jun 10 19:39:00 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:39:00 -0400 Subject: how accurate is cracks and shards really? References: <009a01c210ee$e71a5a40$1401a8c0@Spencer> Message-ID: <001201c210f1$246a6370$17ecca18@ingram> > lisa grant coffin > who could use some help on getting the responses Usenet Style like everyone like them. I don't think we're using Usenet Style responses, I believe we're using Brust Style responses. Which is basically what I've just done here. Unless I'm mistaken.... From mporter at rogers.com Mon Jun 10 19:56:09 2002 From: mporter at rogers.com (Mark Porter) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:56:09 -0400 Subject: Quick Question regarding Teckla Message-ID: <002d01c210f3$89df3800$59a97218@slnt.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Well, I just finished reading it. I love it. I can't compare it to Jhereg or Yendi because it's just so different, but also refreshing, because these are problems we see in our world, and they're universal. Blah blah blah. I know it's been said before, I'll stop going on about it, sorry. I can see why people had problems with Cawti - I have a few comments of my own, but since the argument is dead, I won't try to revivify it. My question, though, is this. Much to my delight, 'Lord' Khaavren was mentioned twice. Now, I'm just curious what his current role is in the Empire. He can no longer be the Captain of the Guard, since Vlad seems to know of him, yet still wonders if the Dragon woman that showed up outside of Kelly's was the Captain, which I think leaves two possibilities. Obviously, Vlad was upset at him as if Khaavren had something to do with the troops being present, so I'm thinking he's either been promoted to Brigadier, or possible he's even gotten himself a job as Warlord. Has this been covered in a later book? ______________________ Mark Porter Don't Ask. Trust Me. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Jun 10 20:18:04 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 20:18:04 -0700 Subject: how accurate is cracks and shards really? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020610201740.00a76dc0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 09:15 PM 6/10/2002 -0500, Gametech wrote: >I've been wondering exactly how accurate most of Mark Mandel's analysis about >Dragaera is. Not so much if his exact conclusions are correct but if he >hasn't >missed any very important details before getting to them. Over-all, it's pretty good. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Jun 10 20:23:55 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 20:23:55 -0700 Subject: Quick Question regarding Teckla In-Reply-To: <002d01c210f3$89df3800$59a97218@slnt.phub.net.cable.rogers. com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020610202140.00a79630@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:56 PM 6/10/2002 -0400, Mark Porter wrote: >My question, though, is this. Much to my delight, 'Lord' Khaavren was >mentioned twice. Now, I'm just curious what his current role is in the >Empire. He can no longer be the Captain of the Guard, since Vlad seems to >know of him, yet still wonders if the Dragon woman that showed up outside >of Kelly's was the Captain, which I think leaves two >possibilities. Obviously, Vlad was upset at him as if Khaavren had >something to do with the troops being present, so I'm thinking he's either >been promoted to Brigadier, or possible he's even gotten himself a job as >Warlord. So far as I know, Khaavren is captain of the Phoenix Guards, unless he's gotten into another snit and resigned again; I haven't checked lately. Vlad, of course, is merely showing off his ignorance. In another book, I don't recall which, he refers to the Countess of Whitecrest as a Lyorn. From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Jun 10 20:46:35 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 10 Jun 2002 22:46:35 -0500 Subject: META: readalong list rules Message-ID: <1023767195.1388.TMDA@dd-b.net> Here's the current draft of the readalong list rules. Please point out any serious omissions and oversights quickly! Note that Chris Turkel is listed as in charge of the list. I haven't seen any other suggestions, and he volunteered, and I see no problem with him, so right now that's what's likely to happen. So if you have a strong objection to that that you want me to take into account, you need to let me know (email is okay if you don't want to be mean in public). Welcome To The Dragaera Readalong Mailing List V0.1 10-Jun-2002 This list is a spinoff of the Dragaera list, . It's for people who want to do group reads of Steven's books and discuss them as they go along. Day-to-day operation is handled by the list guru. All decisions of the guru are final until he changes his mind. The current [10-Jun-2002] guru is Chris Turkel . "On topic" material for this list includes picking the next book for the group read; discussing the book during and after the read; moderate amounts of "community" discussion; and such digressions as are more trouble to suppress than to ignore. Spoilers for the book in question will certainly come up during the discussion. If you don't want to see spoilers, you should avoid this list! This discussion must be conducted reasonably civilly. In particular, personal attacks are forbidden. Do NOT tell somebody that they're a poo-poo head; you may, if you wish, tell them that their claim to have found Devera on page 184 of _Dragon_ doesn't stand up to examination. When replying to a message on the list, relevant portions of the previous message should be quoted. The *entire* message should generally not be quoted, unless you're responding to each bit of it. New material should be placed *below* the old material it's responding to, not above. In other words, normal Usenet quoting conventions should be observed. Line lengths should be limited to less than 80 characters (70 is a better number, to allow for some buildup of quoting). Do not send file attachments to the list. Especially, do not send binary files to the list. Do not send HTML to the list. Send plain text messages to the list. All those other things will be stripped off by the software running the list. (Technicalities: MIME multipart/alternative is fine, so long as there is a text/plain part; that part will be passed through and the rest stripped.) (AOL users: that's what current AOL software does by default [as of 15-Apr-2002] so you shouldn't have trouble posting). The views expressed in messages on this list may be the views of the people who sent the messages; they are *not* the official views of anybody else. Note that this applies even to Steven and those of us running the list -- unless specifically stated otherwise, we're posting our personal opinions, not Official Truth. The information about the subscribers that we have (from the email headers; name and email address) will be posted to the list monthly, so people know with whom they are talking. The posts to this list are archived and are publicly available via email and on the web. Only list members may post to this list (this is primarily a spam-prevention measure). To subscribe, send email to <readalong-subscribe at dragaera.info>, and respond to the confirmation message you will receive. (The confirmation message makes it much harder for somebody to subscribe you to this list as a "joke".) To unsubscribe, send email to <readalong-unsubscribe at dragaera.info> from the address you want unsubscribed, and respond to the confirmation message you will receive there. To send your message to all the subscribers on the list, send it to <readalong at dragaera.info>. You must be a subscriber to the list yourself to do this. To communicate just with the list guru, email your message to <dragaera-owner at dragaera.info>. To get help on the various commands the list management software supports, send email to <readalong-help at dragaera.info>. (Technicalities: this list is run using ezmlm+idx). The home page for this list is http://dragaera.info/readalong-list/. This mailing list, and the eventual related web site, is a project of Corwin Brust, David Dyer-Bennet, and Felix Strates, with the support of Steven Brust. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Jun 10 20:48:38 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 10 Jun 2002 22:48:38 -0500 Subject: how accurate is cracks and shards really? In-Reply-To: <001201c210f1$246a6370$17ecca18@ingram> References: <009a01c210ee$e71a5a40$1401a8c0@Spencer> <001201c210f1$246a6370$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: "Scott Ingram" writes: > > lisa grant coffin > > who could use some help on getting the responses Usenet Style like > everyone like them. > > > I don't think we're using Usenet Style responses, I believe we're using > Brust Style responses. > Which is basically what I've just done here. > Unless I'm mistaken.... Which is Usenet style. Quote using ">", edit quotes as tightly as seems reasonable, and place new material immediately below the quoted material being responded to. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Mon Jun 10 20:40:37 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:40:37 -0500 Subject: how accurate is cracks and shards really? Message-ID: > >I've been wondering exactly how accurate most of Mark Mandel's analysis > about > >Dragaera is. Not so much if his exact conclusions are correct but if he > hasn't > >missed any very important details before getting to them. > >Anyway what are the opinions out there? > i was actually wondering something about the speculation as well. > i haven't seen a reference in the books that indicate Brigitta is Cawti's > mother. yet it's on the list.> i >was actually wondering something about the > speculation as well. Unless I'm on crack (which is very possible) at the end of Brokedown Palace it is said that she was carrying a unborn child(of you know who) and going elsewhere, I'd assume of course that means to the west and that the unborn child is Cawti. Unfortunetly since I don't actually own a copy of the book I can't exactly verify this, though if you do take a look yourself..... From lisa at spindot.com Mon Jun 10 20:41:30 2002 From: lisa at spindot.com (Lisa Grant Coffin) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 23:41:30 -0400 Subject: how accurate is cracks and shards really? References: <009a01c210ee$e71a5a40$1401a8c0@Spencer><001201c210f1$246a6370$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: <00ca01c210f9$e197fa90$1401a8c0@Spencer> > Which is Usenet style. Quote using ">", edit quotes as tightly as > seems reasonable, and place new material immediately below the quoted > material being responded to. > -- > David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test i meant automatically. ;) i just want to hit 'reply' and bang! instant correct reply order except the snipping. i don't mind doing the snipping. everyone else (well, many) seems to have the title: you sent x email at x time, followed by the correct sequence. that's all. if it's obvious, please tell me anyway. if its not, just ignore me. lgc From lisa at spindot.com Mon Jun 10 20:48:34 2002 From: lisa at spindot.com (Lisa Grant Coffin) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 23:48:34 -0400 Subject: how accurate is cracks and shards really? References: <009a01c210ee$e71a5a40$1401a8c0@Spencer> Message-ID: <00d101c210fa$dd4748a0$1401a8c0@Spencer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gametech" To: "Lisa Grant Coffin" Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 11:38 PM Subject: Re: how accurate is cracks and shards really? > Unless I'm on crack (which is very possible) at the end of Brokedown Palace > it is said that she was > carrying a unborn child(of you know who) and going elsewhere, I'd assume of > course that means to the west and that the unborn child is Cawti. > Unfortunetly since I don't actually own a copy of the book I can't exactly > verify this, though if you do take a look yourself..... yes it does say Brigitta's having a child, and she runs to the east. and yes, Cawti seems likely, but it could be one of those travelling mistrels our vlad-in-the-wilderness knows. maybe we get to meet her in, say, chreotha or something. ;) oh-i noticed also that Zerika names Llazlo as her eastern lover. i re-read brokedown palace just before phoenix. i missed that the last time around. lgc From lisa at spindot.com Mon Jun 10 20:56:04 2002 From: lisa at spindot.com (Lisa Grant Coffin) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 23:56:04 -0400 Subject: how accurate is cracks and shards really?..... also References: Message-ID: <00e001c210fb$e98ea2b0$1401a8c0@Spencer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gametech" To: Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 11:40 PM Subject: Re: how accurate is cracks and shards really? at the end of Brokedown Palace > it is said that she was > carrying a unborn child(of you know who) and going elsewhere, Brokedown Palace spoiler********************** the unborn child is the child of Prince Miklos. He's the one who exiles/kills Verra (if Cawti is Miklos' son, Verra must feel odd about her. Not to mention Aliera), and encourages the tree to grow, thus starting a rebirth in Fenario, literally and symbolically; and free from sorcery (and/or, Verra, depending upon how one reads that) the unknown/possible demon/possible god is the thing who fathers Brigitta. perhaps Barlen? lol. lgc From rachael at daedala.net Mon Jun 10 21:35:31 2002 From: rachael at daedala.net (Rachael Lininger) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 23:35:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: how accurate is cracks and shards really? In-Reply-To: <00ca01c210f9$e197fa90$1401a8c0@Spencer> Message-ID: On Jun 10, Lisa Grant Coffin said: >> Which is Usenet style. Quote using ">", edit quotes as tightly as >> seems reasonable, and place new material immediately below the quoted >> material being responded to. >> -- >> David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test > >i meant automatically. ;) >i just want to hit 'reply' and bang! instant correct reply order >except the snipping. i don't mind doing the snipping. >everyone else (well, many) seems to have the title: you sent x email >at x time, followed by the correct sequence. > >that's all. if it's obvious, please tell me anyway. if its not, just >ignore me. I don't know how to make Outlook [Express] behave properly by default. Does someone have a URL or Usenet post that can point people in the right direction? Gods know this comes up often enough. That said, your reply was almost perfect. Remember to include the attribution _before_ the message ("David Dyer-Bennet wrote" or something like that; the "Original Message" thing Outlook does is ok by me) and cut out the .signature file after it. Basically, anything after the -- needs to go, unless you're specifically talking about someone's sig. Rachael -- Rachael From the Dilbert Newsletter: Lininger "You should talk to her. rachael@ She is a minefield of information." daedala.net From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Jun 10 21:57:57 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 10 Jun 2002 23:57:57 -0500 Subject: Online RPG Mailing List Message-ID: <1023771477.3729.TMDA@dd-b.net> The Online RPG Mailing list is now open for business. Info is on the Dragaera Mailing List page at http://dragaera.info/mailing-lists.html To subscribe send email to . Thanks to Stacy for being Empress for this list! (The readalong list will probably open up tomorrow, pending unforseen difficulties.) -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing list, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Jun 10 22:03:37 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 11 Jun 2002 00:03:37 -0500 Subject: how accurate is cracks and shards really? In-Reply-To: <00ca01c210f9$e197fa90$1401a8c0@Spencer> References: <009a01c210ee$e71a5a40$1401a8c0@Spencer> <001201c210f1$246a6370$17ecca18@ingram> <00ca01c210f9$e197fa90$1401a8c0@Spencer> Message-ID: "Lisa Grant Coffin" writes: > > Which is Usenet style. Quote using ">", edit quotes as tightly as > > seems reasonable, and place new material immediately below the quoted > > material being responded to. > i meant automatically. ;) > i just want to hit 'reply' and bang! instant correct reply order > except the snipping. i don't mind doing the snipping. everyone else > (well, many) seems to have the title: you sent x email at x time, > followed by the correct sequence. > > that's all. if it's obvious, please tell me anyway. if its not, just > ignore me. I'm sorry, I wasn't meaning to be unhelpful; I guess I was reading too fast and didn't understand exactly what you were asking. Your headers say you post using Outlook Express, and I've never used that. In Outlook, it's possible to configure the quoting style to be pretty normal; it was on a preferences page I think. I'm sorry, I don't have Outlook available here (it was at a previous employer that I used it) so I can't look up exact sequences to get there. And Outlook Express may even not have them. Anybody have Outlook Express installed and know how to configure the quoting style? -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From mss2 at attbi.com Mon Jun 10 23:43:11 2002 From: mss2 at attbi.com (Michael S. Schiffer) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 01:43:11 -0500 Subject: how accurate is cracks and shards really? In-Reply-To: References: <00ca01c210f9$e197fa90$1401a8c0@Spencer> <009a01c210ee$e71a5a40$1401a8c0@Spencer> <001201c210f1$246a6370$17ecca18@ingram> <00ca01c210f9$e197fa90$1401a8c0@Spencer> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020611013956.03c3c160@mail.attbi.com> At 12:03 AM 6/11/2002 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >"Lisa Grant Coffin" writes: > >... > > i just want to hit 'reply' and bang! instant correct reply order > > except the snipping. i don't mind doing the snipping. everyone else > > (well, many) seems to have the title: you sent x email at x time, > > followed by the correct sequence. >... >Your headers say you post using Outlook Express, and I've never used >that. In Outlook, it's possible to configure the quoting style to be >pretty normal; it was on a preferences page I think. I'm sorry, I >don't have Outlook available here (it was at a previous employer that >I used it) so I can't look up exact sequences to get there. And >Outlook Express may even not have them. >Anybody have Outlook Express installed and know how to configure the >quoting style? I don't use Outlook Express either, but people on r.a.sf.w. seem to recommend OE-Quotefix to make Outlook quote and attribute properly. It appears to be available for download (it's freeware) at . Looking over the features, it looks as if it can do everything Lisa wants it to do, plus a few other things. Mike From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Tue Jun 11 00:46:19 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 02:46:19 -0500 Subject: how accurate is cracks and shards really? References: <00ca01c210f9$e197fa90$1401a8c0@Spencer> <009a01c210ee$e71a5a40$1401a8c0@Spencer> <001201c210f1$246a6370$17ecca18@ingram> <00ca01c210f9$e197fa90$1401a8c0@Spencer> <5.1.0.14.0.20020611013956.03c3c160@mail.attbi.com> Message-ID: Michael S. Schiffer wrote: > At 12:03 AM 6/11/2002 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >> "Lisa Grant Coffin" writes: >>> ... >>> i just want to hit 'reply' and bang! instant correct reply order >>> except the snipping. i don't mind doing the snipping. everyone else >>> (well, many) seems to have the title: you sent x email at x time, >>> followed by the correct sequence. > > >... > >> Your headers say you post using Outlook Express, and I've never used >> that. In Outlook, it's possible to configure the quoting style to be >> pretty normal; it was on a preferences page I think. I'm sorry, I >> don't have Outlook available here (it was at a previous employer that >> I used it) so I can't look up exact sequences to get there. And >> Outlook Express may even not have them. > >> Anybody have Outlook Express installed and know how to configure the >> quoting style? > > I don't use Outlook Express either, but people on r.a.sf.w. seem to > recommend OE-Quotefix to make Outlook quote and attribute properly. > It appears to be available for download (it's freeware) at > . Looking over the features, it looks > as if it can do everything Lisa wants it to do, plus a few other > things. > > Mike well this is what quote fix looks like in real use, I just hit reply, it's just that easy thanks for the advice Mike From Starshadw at aol.com Tue Jun 11 06:16:28 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:16:28 -0400 Subject: Ireland = Paths of the Dead?? Message-ID: <3A66CACC.01CF0AC6.0296E7C9@aol.com> Heh. While doing some research on the web this morning, I came across this website: http://indigo.ie/~kwood/wills.htm Which belongs to one Kieron Wood, an Irish barrister. It's a small world....universe...multiverse....whatever. Stacy From lisa at spindot.com Tue Jun 11 06:49:07 2002 From: lisa at spindot.com (Lisa Grant Coffin) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:49:07 -0400 Subject: how accurate is cracks and shards really? References: <00ca01c210f9$e197fa90$1401a8c0@Spencer> <009a01c210ee$e71a5a40$1401a8c0@Spencer> <001201c210f1$246a6370$17ecca18@ingram> <00ca01c210f9$e197fa90$1401a8c0@Spencer> <5.1.0.14.0.20020611013956.03c3c160@mail.attbi.com> Message-ID: <002001c2114e$c27fc570$1401a8c0@Spencer> Michael S. Schiffer wrote: > I don't use Outlook Express either, but people on r.a.sf.w. seem to > recommend OE-Quotefix to make Outlook quote and attribute properly. > It appears to be available for download (it's freeware) at > . Looking over the features, it looks > as if it can do everything Lisa wants it to do, plus a few other > things. Thank You Mike! That sure was easy. Lisa Grant Coffin From adina at panix.com Tue Jun 11 06:51:16 2002 From: adina at panix.com (Adina Adler) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:51:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: how accurate is cracks and shards really?..... also In-Reply-To: <00e001c210fb$e98ea2b0$1401a8c0@Spencer> (lisa@spindot.com) References: <00e001c210fb$e98ea2b0$1401a8c0@Spencer> Message-ID: <200206111351.g5BDpGe26655@panix3.panix.com> "Lisa Grant Coffin" wrote: >DQotLS0tLSBPcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tIA0KRnJvbTogIkdhbWV0ZWNoIiA8dm9sdHJv >bmFscGhhQGhvdG1haWwuY29tPg0KVG86IDxkcmFnYWVyYUBkcmFnYWVyYS5pbmZvPg0KU2VudDog [rest snipped] Everything that I get from Lisa Grant Coffin looks like this. Does anyone else have this problem? I read mail using emacs rmail, and I think this system is running in NetBSD. -- Adina From lisa at spindot.com Tue Jun 11 07:32:59 2002 From: lisa at spindot.com (Lisa Grant Coffin) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 10:32:59 -0400 Subject: how accurate is cracks and shards really?..... also References: <00e001c210fb$e98ea2b0$1401a8c0@Spencer> <200206111351.g5BDpGe26655@panix3.panix.com> Message-ID: <003c01c21154$e38144a0$1401a8c0@Spencer> Adina Adler wrote: > "Lisa Grant Coffin" wrote: > >> DQotLS0tLSBPcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tIA0KRnJvbTogIkdhbWV0ZWNoIiA8dm9sdHJv >> bmFscGhhQGhvdG1haWwuY29tPg0KVG86IDxkcmFnYWVyYUBkcmFnYWVyYS5pbmZvPg0KU2VudDog > > [rest snipped] > > Everything that I get from Lisa Grant Coffin looks like this. Does > anyone else have this problem? I read mail using emacs rmail, and I > think this system is running in NetBSD. eek! i use outlook express on a windows xp system over a windows 2000 network. i use plain text to send mail, the encoding is set to 'iso', i don't encrypt, and i've never seen this problem before. lisa grant coffin From singram at videotron.ca Tue Jun 11 07:44:03 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 10:44:03 -0400 Subject: how accurate is cracks and shards really?..... also References: <00e001c210fb$e98ea2b0$1401a8c0@Spencer> <200206111351.g5BDpGe26655@panix3.panix.com> Message-ID: <002201c21156$6eaaeb70$17ecca18@ingram> From: "Adina Adler" > Everything that I get from Lisa Grant Coffin looks like this. Does > anyone else have this problem? I read mail using emacs rmail, and I > think this system is running in NetBSD. It looks like Lisa is using Base64 (Unicode - which is useful for international characters) encoding in her emails, could that be the problem? Actually, it probably is. Adina could solve this by updating something, I'm sure Net BSD has some sort of Unicode capability. Lisa, if you're using Outlook Express, you can resolve (if you want) this by doing the following: In Outlook Express: - go to the 'Tools' menu - choose 'Options' - click on the 'Send' tab - under the 'Mail Sending Format' area click on the 'HTML Settings' button and in the 'Encode text using' area choose none. - click on OK - under the 'Mail Sending Format' area click on the 'Text Settings' button and in the 'Encode text using' area choose none. From Starshadw at aol.com Tue Jun 11 07:49:41 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 10:49:41 -0400 Subject: The Shape of Dragaera Message-ID: <6D41EC7E.64F0C2C7.0296E7C9@aol.com> OK, we've heard that the continent of Dragaera (which includes the Empire itself as well as "The East") is roughly the shape of Europe and about twice as big. But exactly what is meant by "Europe?" All of Europe, including Russia? What about the "Viking Nations" up north? Are those included as well? Or is Russia not included? Or are we talking about just Western Europe? Stacy From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Jun 11 07:39:09 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 10:39:09 -0400 Subject: Ireland = Paths of the Dead?? In-Reply-To: <3A66CACC.01CF0AC6.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tuesday, June 11, 2002, at 09:16 AM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > Heh. While doing some research on the web this morning, I came across > this website: > > http://indigo.ie/~kwood/wills.htm > > Which belongs to one Kieron Wood, an Irish barrister. It's a small > world....universe...multiverse....whatever. > > Stacy > > Interesting though I think it's a mere Freak of Nature. I always imagined the Paths as a labyrinth of corridors with the odd grassy area now and then. -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From rachael at daedala.net Tue Jun 11 08:09:30 2002 From: rachael at daedala.net (Rachael Lininger) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 10:09:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: The Shape of Dragaera In-Reply-To: <6D41EC7E.64F0C2C7.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: On Jun 11, Starshadw at aol.com said: >OK, we've heard that the continent of Dragaera (which includes the >Empire itself as well as "The East") is roughly the shape of Europe and >about twice as big. > >But exactly what is meant by "Europe?" All of Europe, including >Russia? What about the "Viking Nations" up north? Are those included >as well? Or is Russia not included? Or are we talking about just >Western Europe? Judging by the food, it's the Sino-Hungarian axis. Rachael -- Rachael From the Dilbert Newsletter: Lininger "You should talk to her. rachael@ She is a minefield of information." daedala.net From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Jun 11 09:01:22 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 11 Jun 2002 11:01:22 -0500 Subject: how accurate is cracks and shards really?..... also In-Reply-To: <200206111351.g5BDpGe26655@panix3.panix.com> References: <00e001c210fb$e98ea2b0$1401a8c0@Spencer> <200206111351.g5BDpGe26655@panix3.panix.com> Message-ID: Adina Adler writes: > "Lisa Grant Coffin" wrote: > > >DQotLS0tLSBPcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tIA0KRnJvbTogIkdhbWV0ZWNoIiA8dm9sdHJv > >bmFscGhhQGhvdG1haWwuY29tPg0KVG86IDxkcmFnYWVyYUBkcmFnYWVyYS5pbmZvPg0KU2VudDog > > [rest snipped] > > Everything that I get from Lisa Grant Coffin looks like this. Does > anyone else have this problem? I read mail using emacs rmail, and I > think this system is running in NetBSD. Previous messages I've looked at from Lisa are in plain text, but Base64 encoded for transfer (which makes sense if the message body is potentially unicode). Doesn't make any sense for an English-language plain text list though. Her most recent message *doesn't* show that when I look at it here, which probably means that the oe-quotefix patch has also taken care of the base64 encoding. Can you read her more recent messages? I'm reading in emacs using gnus, and gnus is capable of interpreting the bas64 encoding. I think VM might be also (and it seems to me nearly identical to rmail in user interface, so you might be able to switch to VM without much learning curve). -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Jun 11 07:57:59 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 10:57:59 -0400 Subject: The Shape of Dragaera In-Reply-To: <6D41EC7E.64F0C2C7.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <9F026A7C-7D4B-11D6-87A5-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Tuesday, June 11, 2002, at 10:49 AM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > OK, we've heard that the continent of Dragaera (which includes the > Empire itself as well as "The East") is roughly the shape of Europe and > about twice as big. > > But exactly what is meant by "Europe?" All of Europe, including > Russia? What about the "Viking Nations" up north? Are those included > as well? Or is Russia not included? Or are we talking about just > Western Europe? > > Stacy > > I would take it literally; I would say it's Europe from Ural Mountains west, including Scandinavia. makes England a good candidate for the Island of Elde. -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Tue Jun 11 09:17:32 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:17:32 -0500 Subject: Food and critters Message-ID: <3D06229C.31FA6C1E@attbi.com> One of the fun things about Draghera is trying to figure out what all the critters look like. Some of them are also used for food--it's fun figuring out something about them based on that. BTW, I wanna come out firmly in favor of food talk. I'd also like to know where the jellied winnecerous joke comes from . . . Here is a little bit I've been able to figure out. Anybody else? ~ means equivalent. Issola ~ egret Dzur ~ black panther Teckla ~ rabbit Kethna ~ pig (at least fills the same culinary niche) Athyra is a bird that lures its prey psionically Yendi is a kind of snake Chreothra spins *very large* webs. I have no idea what it looks like. Anybody else? Mia From adina at panix.com Tue Jun 11 09:31:57 2002 From: adina at panix.com (Adina Adler) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:31:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: how accurate is cracks and shards really?..... also In-Reply-To: (message from David Dyer-Bennet on 11 Jun 2002 11:01:22 -0500) References: <00e001c210fb$e98ea2b0$1401a8c0@Spencer> <200206111351.g5BDpGe26655@panix3.panix.com> Message-ID: <200206111631.g5BGVvT06057@panix1.panix.com> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > >Adina Adler writes: > >> "Lisa Grant Coffin" wrote: >> >> >DQotLS0tLSBPcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tIA0KRnJvbTogIkdhbWV0ZWNoIiA8dm9sdHJv >> >bmFscGhhQGhvdG1haWwuY29tPg0KVG86IDxkcmFnYWVyYUBkcmFnYWVyYS5pbmZvPg0KU2VudDog >> >> [rest snipped] >> >> Everything that I get from Lisa Grant Coffin looks like this. Does >> anyone else have this problem? I read mail using emacs rmail, and I >> think this system is running in NetBSD. > >Previous messages I've looked at from Lisa are in plain text, but >Base64 encoded for transfer (which makes sense if the message body is >potentially unicode). Doesn't make any sense for an English-language >plain text list though. Her most recent message *doesn't* show that >when I look at it here, which probably means that the oe-quotefix >patch has also taken care of the base64 encoding. Can you read her >more recent messages? Yes, the problem seems to have vanished. > >I'm reading in emacs using gnus, and gnus is capable of interpreting >the bas64 encoding. I think VM might be also (and it seems to me >nearly identical to rmail in user interface, so you might be able to >switch to VM without much learning curve). Actually, I once thought about reading mail in gnus, but I could never get the configuration to work. (I've been reading news in gnus for years, but it worked perfectly the first time I tried it.) Do you know of a good reference? I tried the method suggested in the gnus manual and my mail never seemed to go anywhere. -- Adina From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Jun 11 09:53:29 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 11 Jun 2002 11:53:29 -0500 Subject: Food and critters In-Reply-To: <3D06229C.31FA6C1E@attbi.com> References: <3D06229C.31FA6C1E@attbi.com> Message-ID: Mia McDavid writes: > One of the fun things about Draghera is trying to figure out what all > the critters look like. Some of them are also used for food--it's fun > figuring out something about them based on that. > > BTW, I wanna come out firmly in favor of food talk. I'd also like to > know where the jellied winnecerous joke comes from . . . At various times there have been talk and attempts at "Dragaeran dinners" (I believe the first few pre-date any books being written, and were related to the gaming group). Steven invented some recipes, and I found some suitable recipes and proposed Dragaeran names for them. Red Dragon Anise Gelled Wineocerous can be found in the Craig Claiborn / Virginia Lee chineese cookbook under the name "aromatic spiced beef", I believe. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Jun 11 09:43:19 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:43:19 -0700 Subject: The Shape of Dragaera In-Reply-To: <6D41EC7E.64F0C2C7.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020611094306.00a74080@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:49 AM 6/11/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >OK, we've heard that the continent of Dragaera (which includes the Empire >itself as well as "The East") is roughly the shape of Europe and about >twice as big. > >But exactly what is meant by "Europe?" All of Europe, including >Russia? What about the "Viking Nations" up north? Are those included as >well? Or is Russia not included? Or are we talking about just Western Europe? Good question. :-) From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Jun 11 09:47:54 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:47:54 -0700 Subject: Food and critters In-Reply-To: <3D06229C.31FA6C1E@attbi.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020611094606.00a76ec0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:17 AM 6/11/2002 -0500, Mia McDavid wrote: >Dzur ~ black panther Yes, in shape, but roughly the size of an albino tiger. >Teckla ~ rabbit Nope. The teckla is a sart marsh harvest mouse >Kethna ~ pig (at least fills the same culinary niche) Good catch. From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Tue Jun 11 11:39:17 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:39:17 -0500 Subject: Food and critters References: <3D06229C.31FA6C1E@attbi.com> Message-ID: <3D0643D5.F668FF77@attbi.com> DDB-- Thank you for clearing that up for me. I've just started re-reading the Taltos canon, starting with Taltos. (Yes, I know Steve thinks one should start with Jhereg. :-P ) It's fun to have the backstory from Paarfi's work. That's what I love about this stuff--there's enough tangled cross-referents to keep us going from now until the Cycle fails. Cheers! Mia From tyan at twcny.rr.com Tue Jun 11 11:47:39 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:47:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: how accurate is cracks and shards really?..... also In-Reply-To: <200206111351.g5BDpGe26655@panix3.panix.com> (message from Adina Adler on Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:51:16 -0400 (EDT)) References: <200206111351.g5BDpGe26655@panix3.panix.com> Message-ID: <200206111847.g5BIldk0000442@localhost.twcny.rr.com> [ Lisa -- Thank you very much! I appreciate your trying to conform to Usenet posting style. Struggling to get software to behave isn't fun; I used to have "Fight sucky software and learned helplessness." in my .sig to remind myself not to give up hope. Below I rant about broken software; it is *not* directed at you! ] Adina Adler wrote on Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:51:16 > > "Lisa Grant Coffin" wrote: > > >DQotLS0tLSBPcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tIA0KRnJvbTogIkdhbWV0ZWNoIiA8dm9sdHJv > >bmFscGhhQGhvdG1haWwuY29tPg0KVG86IDxkcmFnYWVyYUBkcmFnYWVyYS5pbmZvPg0KU2VudDog > > [rest snipped] > > Everything that I get from Lisa Grant Coffin looks like this. Does > anyone else have this problem? I read mail using emacs rmail, and I > think this system is running in NetBSD. I'm currently also using emacs rmail and *usually* have the same problem. It turns out that her mail program is set to use base64 for its Content-Transfer-Encoding. I downloaded and compiled a base64 en-/decoder from http://www.fourmilab.ch/webtools/base64 or thereabouts, and then just recently found out that my version of emacs (20.7.1) has base64-decode-region as a built-in function. Whoops! (I also wrote an elisp function to massage a dragaera digest so that undigestify-rmail-message would work.) However, a recent reply of hers to Mike Schiffer came out fine: "Lisa Grant Coffin" wrote on Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:49:07 > Michael S. Schiffer wrote: > > > I don't use Outlook Express either, but people on r.a.sf.w. seem to > > recommend OE-Quotefix to make Outlook quote and attribute properly. > > It appears to be available for download (it's freeware) at > > . Looking over the features, it looks > > as if it can do everything Lisa wants it to do, plus a few other > > things. > > Thank You Mike! That sure was easy. Yay! That came out nicely formatted. (Having the time and date as part of the attribution isn't a big deal to me.) I'm don't know what, if anything, you can do about it in Outlook Express, but one more gotcha to be aware of is auto-wrap, long lines, and/or a paragraph typed as "one long line" with RETURN typed at only the end. This is a sort point with me, so now I'm going to rant about it. =============================================================================== Below are 4 illustrations of what can go wrong. (If one's mail program auto-formats received messages, what one sees might not match what I've sent, which can be infuriating: How do you fix what you can't see?) But first, a quick tutorial on ">" as punctuation in Usenet style: the number of quote characters ">" at the start of the line is supposed to correspond to the author. If this were an an email message from Alice: Fred wrote: > Bob wrote: >> Hi? > Bye! Sky. Then here is who said what: Bob: Hi? Fred: Bye! Alice: Sky. Note: a possible point of confusion is that the attribution has one less quote character than the text that person wrote, e.g. "> Bob wrote" has 1 quote character, but his text ">> Hi?" has 2. If this correspondence is tampered with, then people accustomed to this use of punctuation will get confused about who said what, which is a problem in Examples 2 - 4. Example 1. Emacs shows a long line by wrapping it, but using blackslashes to indicate that it doesn't fit on the current line: I'm don't know what, if anything, you can do about it in Outlook Express, bu\ t one more gotcha to be aware of is auto-wrap, long lines, and/or a paragrap\ h typed as "one long line" with RETURN typed at only the end. Below are som\ e illustrations of what can go wrong. Example 2. When a long line gets quoted, Usenet style can make it look like the "1st line" is written by one person, and the "remaining lines" are written by someone else! > I'm don't know what, if anything, you can do about it in Outlook Express, \ but one more gotcha to be aware of is auto-wrap, long lines, and/or a paragr\ aph typed as "one long line" with RETURN typed at only the end. Below are s\ ome illustrations of what can go wrong. Example 3. When quoted text gets rewrapped, quote characters can get embedded, adding another problem on top of Example 2. > I'm don't know what, if anything, you can do about it in Outlook > Express, but one more gotcha to be aware of is auto-wrap, long > lines, and/or a paragraph typed as "one long line" with RETURN typed > at only the end. Below are some illustrations of what can go wrong. This is worse than (2) because of the embedded quote characters. Example 4. When long quoted lines get broken (instead of rewrapped), you can get a "fencepost" effect, which has the same problem as Example 2 in spades, *plus* is rather hard to read. > I'm don't know what, if anything, you can do about it in Outlook > Express, but one more gotcha to be aware of is auto-wrap, long lines, > and/or a paragraph typed as "one long line" with RETURN typed at only > the end. Below are some illustrations of what can go wrong. Grr! - tky From tyan at twcny.rr.com Tue Jun 11 12:01:27 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:01:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: META: readalong list rules In-Reply-To: <1023767195.1388.TMDA@dd-b.net> References: <1023767195.1388.TMDA@dd-b.net> Message-ID: <200206111901.g5BJ1RjQ000460@localhost.twcny.rr.com> [Whoops, I meant this to go to the whole list, not just DDB.] "David Dyer-Bennet" wrote on 10 Jun 2002 22:46:35 > Welcome To The Dragaera Readalong Mailing List > V0.1 10-Jun-2002 -snip- > Spoilers for the book in question will certainly come up during the > discussion. If you don't want to see spoilers, you should avoid this > list! Include something about spoiler protection for later chapters and other books? Aside: Does anyone here have a mail program that eats blank lines, and if so, do we want to (semi-)standardize spoiler-space? Below are about 10 blanks lines: If you don't see a blank area, then your mailer ate the blank lines, but hopefully something like s p o i l e r s would work. (You should see "spoilers" displayed vertically.) - tky From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Jun 11 12:02:35 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:02:35 -0700 Subject: Food and critters In-Reply-To: <3D0643D5.F668FF77@attbi.com> References: <3D06229C.31FA6C1E@attbi.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020611120045.00a730e0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 01:39 PM 6/11/2002 -0500, Mia McDavid wrote: >DDB-- > >Thank you for clearing that up for me. > >I've just started re-reading the Taltos canon, starting with Taltos. >(Yes, I know Steve thinks one should start with Jhereg. :-P ) Actually, I'm trying to have no opinion on the order one should read them in. I mean, I made an effort to write them so they could be read in any order. I know very well that I wasn't completely successful, but the fact that I made the effort precludes me from being able to suggest a reading order. From dragaera at juima.org Tue Jun 11 12:40:43 2002 From: dragaera at juima.org (Sander) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 21:40:43 +0200 Subject: how accurate is cracks and shards really? References: Message-ID: <3D06523B.6030105@juima.org> Rachael Lininger wrote: > Basically, anything after the > > -- > > needs to go, unless you're specifically talking about someone's sig. Except that "--" (dash-dash) doesn't denote a signature. "-- " (dash-dash-space) does, though. Most modern email clients will automatically remove that sig delimiter and everything below it when replying (which can give problems when top-posting with the sig also inserted above the old message, creating another incentive not to top-post), and often also display the sig differently (or not) when viewing the message. (Mozilla mail for example shows sigs in a light-gray color so you have a nice indicator of where you can stop reading.) *grins* If we're going for picky usenet behaviour, we gotto do it right... :) -- May you always find shade and water, Sander From anthony at netdocuments.com Tue Jun 11 12:39:40 2002 From: anthony at netdocuments.com (Anthony Tedjamulia) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:39:40 -0600 Subject: Food and critters Message-ID: > Actually, I'm trying to have no opinion > on the order one should read them in. > I mean, I made an effort to write them so > they could be read in any order. > I know very well that I wasn't completely > successful, but the fact that I made the > effort precludes me from being able to > suggest a reading order. I recommend chronological order. It gives Jhereg and Teckla more umph. From tyan at twcny.rr.com Tue Jun 11 13:04:05 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:04:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Nicknaming the books In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020610184250.00a76ec0@pop3.lvcm.com> (message from Steven Brust on Mon, 10 Jun 2002 18:45:38 -0700) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020610184250.00a76ec0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <200206112004.g5BK45Yx000504@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Steven Brust wrote on Mon, 10 Jun 2002 18:45:38 > At 07:56 PM 6/10/2002 -0500, A. Nonymous wrote: > > > >I've seen several of the books refered to by nickname in interviews, but > >never the whole list, would you be so kind as to enlighten us, Steve? [TKY moved list down and annotated it with the answers] > Some of them are obvious; the rest are left as an exercise for the reader. :-) I made a bunch of guesses --all correct-- and then realized you had given them in publication order. Still, I made spot checks using www.scifi.com/sfw/issue224/interview.html which revealed that, out of respect, you don't nickname collaborations (Freedom & Necessity; The Gypsy). > Jar-head [ Jhereg ] > The Rain in Spain [ To Reign in Hell ] > Yentil [ Yendi ] > Ripple [ Brokedown Palace ] > Tacky [ Teckla ] > Crosby, Stills, & Nash [ Sun, the Moon, and the Stars, The ] > Milquetoast [ Taltos ] > Shit Happens [ Cowboy Feng's Space Bar and Grille ] > Tucson [ Phoenix ] > The Kleenex Guards [ The Phoenix Guards ] > Aw, Gee [ Agyar ] > Urethra [ Athyra ] > Five Hundred Beers After [ Five Hundred Years After ] > Porker [ Orca ] > Drag Queen [ Dragon ] > Is Ole [ Issola ] (My google search didn't turn up any other sources of info.) - tky From rachael at daedala.net Tue Jun 11 13:40:39 2002 From: rachael at daedala.net (Rachael Lininger) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:40:39 -0500 (CDT) Subject: how accurate is cracks and shards really? In-Reply-To: <3D06523B.6030105@juima.org> Message-ID: On Jun 11, Sander said: >Rachael Lininger wrote: >> Basically, anything after the >> >> -- >> >> needs to go, unless you're specifically talking about someone's sig. > >Except that "--" (dash-dash) doesn't denote a signature. >"-- " (dash-dash-space) does, though. I know; some people have things set up so that they don't even see anything after that. Rachael -- Rachael From the Dilbert Newsletter: Lininger "You should talk to her. rachael@ She is a minefield of information." daedala.net From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Jun 11 13:36:50 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:36:50 -0400 Subject: Nicknaming the books In-Reply-To: <200206112004.g5BK45Yx000504@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: On Tuesday, June 11, 2002, at 04:04 PM, Thomas Yan wrote: > > (My google search didn't turn up any other sources of info.) > > - tky > > I suggest Lard of Doozer Mountain for Lord of Dzur Mountain. I know, I couldn't find anything that took the place of "mountain". -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From bertowud at gator.net Tue Jun 11 13:45:36 2002 From: bertowud at gator.net (Robert Wood) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:45:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Nicknaming the books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57620.209.208.44.34.1023828336.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> On Tuesday, June 11, 2002, at 4:36 pm Chris Turkel wrote: > I suggest Lard of Doozer Mountain for Lord of Dzur Mountain. I know, I > couldn't find anything that took the place of "mountain". How about "Like uh Duh Moron" for Lord of Dzur Mountan? Robert From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Jun 11 13:46:54 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:46:54 -0400 Subject: Nicknaming the books In-Reply-To: <57620.209.208.44.34.1023828336.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> Message-ID: <5D4834B0-7D7C-11D6-8203-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Tuesday, June 11, 2002, at 04:45 PM, Robert Wood wrote: > On Tuesday, June 11, 2002, at 4:36 pm Chris Turkel wrote: > >> I suggest Lard of Doozer Mountain for Lord of Dzur Mountain. I know, I >> couldn't find anything that took the place of "mountain". > > How about "Like uh Duh Moron" for Lord of Dzur Mountan? > > Robert > > Ya! I like that! :-) > -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From alan at 5sc.net Tue Jun 11 13:58:06 2002 From: alan at 5sc.net (Alan) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:58:06 -0400 Subject: Nicknaming the books In-Reply-To: <57620.209.208.44.34.1023828336.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Wood [mailto:bertowud at gator.net] > Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 16:46 > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Nicknaming the books > > > On Tuesday, June 11, 2002, at 4:36 pm Chris Turkel wrote: > > > I suggest Lard of Doozer Mountain for Lord of Dzur Mountain. I know, I > > couldn't find anything that took the place of "mountain". > > How about "Like uh Duh Moron" for Lord of Dzur Mountan? > > Robert > > How about Ted Turner ? Alan From bertowud at gator.net Tue Jun 11 13:54:49 2002 From: bertowud at gator.net (Robert Wood) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:54:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Nicknaming the books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58103.209.208.44.34.1023828889.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> >> How about "Like uh Duh Moron" for Lord of Dzur Mountan? >> >> Robert > > How about Ted Turner ? > > Alan You say Tomayto. I say Tomahto. Robert From bertowud at gator.net Tue Jun 11 14:00:13 2002 From: bertowud at gator.net (Robert Wood) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:00:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Nicknaming the books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58478.209.208.44.34.1023829213.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> >> You say Tomayto. I say Tomahto. >> >> Robert >> > You say tomahto, I'll say tomayto > And I'll be in Montana befooore ye.... > > Alan Ah hell! I live in the South. We can just call them 'maters. Robert From lisa at spindot.com Tue Jun 11 14:26:37 2002 From: lisa at spindot.com (Lisa Grant Coffin) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:26:37 -0400 Subject: Food and critters References: Message-ID: <000801c2118e$ac6602f0$1401a8c0@Spencer> Anthony Tedjamulia wrote: > I recommend chronological order. It gives Jhereg and Teckla more > umph. ah! well, i beg to disagree. :) the writing style and the characters develop in a more natural and interesting manner in the written order. that is, of course, just my humble opinion...... lisa grant coffin, flapping usenet-style agitator From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Jun 11 14:36:40 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:36:40 -0700 Subject: Nicknaming the books In-Reply-To: <57620.209.208.44.34.1023828336.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020611143624.00a95020@pop3.lvcm.com> At 04:45 PM 6/11/2002 -0400, Robert Wood wrote: >On Tuesday, June 11, 2002, at 4:36 pm Chris Turkel wrote: > > > I suggest Lard of Doozer Mountain for Lord of Dzur Mountain. I know, I > > couldn't find anything that took the place of "mountain". > >How about "Like uh Duh Moron" for Lord of Dzur Mountan? Unfortunately, I haven't written a book with that title. From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Jun 11 14:37:37 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:37:37 -0400 Subject: Food and critters In-Reply-To: <000801c2118e$ac6602f0$1401a8c0@Spencer> Message-ID: <73231AC3-7D83-11D6-8A0F-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Tuesday, June 11, 2002, at 05:26 PM, Lisa Grant Coffin wrote: > Anthony Tedjamulia wrote: > >> I recommend chronological order. It gives Jhereg and Teckla more >> umph. > > ah! well, i beg to disagree. :) the writing style and the characters > develop in a more natural and interesting manner in the written order. > that > is, of course, just my humble opinion...... > > lisa grant coffin, > flapping usenet-style agitator > > > I agree with Lisa as well; Read them in the published order. > -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Jun 11 14:38:28 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:38:28 -0400 Subject: Nicknaming the books In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020611143624.00a95020@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <91709FB3-7D83-11D6-8A0F-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Tuesday, June 11, 2002, at 05:36 PM, Steven Brust wrote: > At 04:45 PM 6/11/2002 -0400, Robert Wood wrote: >> On Tuesday, June 11, 2002, at 4:36 pm Chris Turkel wrote: >> >> > I suggest Lard of Doozer Mountain for Lord of Dzur Mountain. I >> know, I >> > couldn't find anything that took the place of "mountain". >> >> How about "Like uh Duh Moron" for Lord of Dzur Mountan? > > Unfortunately, I haven't written a book with that title. > > Not *yet* you haven't, but isn't it part of Viscount, along with paths of the Dead? > > -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Jun 11 14:52:59 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:52:59 -0400 Subject: Spoiler protection (was: META: readalong list rules) Message-ID: <3ECC4D7D.7D15295A.00048EA6@aol.com> [snip everything quoted] How do we want to handle spoiler protection when new books come out? I suggest putting "SPOILER" in the subject and at least ten lines of spoiler space preceding the spoilers. How long should we require spoiler protection? One month? --KG From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Jun 11 14:55:08 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:55:08 -0400 Subject: Spoiler protection (was: META: readalong list rules) In-Reply-To: <3ECC4D7D.7D15295A.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tuesday, June 11, 2002, at 05:52 PM, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > [snip everything quoted] > > How do we want to handle spoiler protection when new books > come out? I suggest putting "SPOILER" in the subject and > at least ten lines of spoiler space preceding the spoilers. > > How long should we require spoiler protection? One month? > > --KG > I can agree with that. I hate the "spoolier" that is spelt out down the page. As for a buffer; I'd say six months, at least. Not everyone can afford a hardcover. > -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Jun 11 15:02:28 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:02:28 -0400 Subject: Quick Question regarding Teckla Message-ID: <7D1261A0.71D0BB0A.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Mon, 10 Jun 2002 10:57:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Mark Porter" writes: > My question, though, is this. ?Much to my delight, 'Lord' > Khaavren was mentioned twice. ?Now, I'm just curious what > his current role is in the Empire. ?He can no longer be > the Captain of the Guard, since Vlad seems to know of him, > yet still wonders if the Dragon woman that showed up > outside of Kelly's was the Captain, which I think leaves > two possibilities. ?Obviously, Vlad was upset at him as if > Khaavren had something to do with the troops being > present, so I'm thinking he's either been promoted to > Brigadier, or possible he's even gotten himself a job as > Warlord. I think "captain" may be a mid-level rank in the Guards (or at least Vlad thinks so). My conviction is that Khaavren IS Warlord (compare the Warlord refernces in _Phoenix_ with comments about Khaavren in _Orca_), with the biggest piece of evidence the fact that Morrolan ain't. --KG From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Tue Jun 11 15:08:50 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:08:50 -0500 Subject: Food and critters References: Message-ID: <3D0674F2.D0B00972@attbi.com> Anthony said: > I recommend chronological order. It gives Jhereg and Teckla more umph. > Yeah? *Which* chronological order? The chronology of Vlad's life? Or publication dates? I like the life-chronology idea myself, though Steve occasionally messes me up by writing a whole volume of backstory. Gee. Too bad. Then I have to re-read the whole set . . . Mia From bertowud at gator.net Tue Jun 11 15:18:00 2002 From: bertowud at gator.net (Robert Wood) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:18:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Nicknaming the books In-Reply-To: <91709FB3-7D83-11D6-8A0F-00039386187A@adelphia.net> References: <91709FB3-7D83-11D6-8A0F-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <1106.24.136.62.181.1023833880.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> On Tuesday, June 11, 2002, at 05:36 PM, Steven Brust wrote: > Unfortunately, I haven't written a book with that title. Doh! It's "The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain". How about "It's a Red Dress You Moron"? Robert From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Jun 11 15:19:27 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:19:27 -0400 Subject: Nicknaming the books In-Reply-To: <1106.24.136.62.181.1023833880.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> Message-ID: <4AC518E8-7D89-11D6-8A0F-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Tuesday, June 11, 2002, at 06:18 PM, Robert Wood wrote: > On Tuesday, June 11, 2002, at 05:36 PM, Steven Brust wrote: >> Unfortunately, I haven't written a book with that title. > > Doh! It's "The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain". How about "It's a Red > Dress > You Moron"? > > Robert > > > D'oh!!! Yes, I like that. Easier to remember! > -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Jun 11 16:20:57 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:20:57 -0700 Subject: Nicknaming the books In-Reply-To: <91709FB3-7D83-11D6-8A0F-00039386187A@adelphia.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020611143624.00a95020@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020611161955.00a74ec0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 05:38 PM 6/11/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: >>>How about "Like uh Duh Moron" for Lord of Dzur Mountan? >> >>Unfortunately, I haven't written a book with that title. >> >Not *yet* you haven't, but isn't it part of Viscount, along with paths of >the Dead? The three volumes of Viscount are: The Paths of the Dead, The Lord of Castle Black, and the Enchantress of Dzur Mountain From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Jun 11 16:23:34 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:23:34 -0500 Subject: Spoiler protection (was: META: readalong list rules) In-Reply-To: References: <3ECC4D7D.7D15295A.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020611232334.GC16187@infodancer.org> On Tue, Jun 11, 2002 at 05:55:08PM -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: > I can agree with that. I hate the "spoolier" that is spelt out down the > page. As for a buffer; I'd say six months, at least. Not everyone can > afford a hardcover. This is far too long -- no one will remember that long, for one thing. Something around a month is reasonable (based on usenet precedent). I sympathize with the people who can't afford hardcovers, but there is a limit to that sympathy. Now, if you could get the paperbacks published 2 months after the hardcovers, it would be different... -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From meersan at mn.astound.net Tue Jun 11 16:45:49 2002 From: meersan at mn.astound.net (Melissa Fitzgerald) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:45:49 -0500 Subject: Quick Question regarding Teckla In-Reply-To: <7D1261A0.71D0BB0A.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020611184549.007ac720@astound.net> At 06:02 PM 6/11/02 -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >In a message dated Mon, 10 Jun 2002 10:57:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Mark Porter" writes: > > >> My question, though, is this. ?Much to my delight, 'Lord' >> Khaavren was mentioned twice. ?Now, I'm just curious what >> his current role is in the Empire. ?He can no longer be >> the Captain of the Guard, since Vlad seems to know of him, >> yet still wonders if the Dragon woman that showed up >> outside of Kelly's was the Captain, which I think leaves >> two possibilities. ?Obviously, Vlad was upset at him as if >> Khaavren had something to do with the troops being >> present, so I'm thinking he's either been promoted to >> Brigadier, or possible he's even gotten himself a job as >> Warlord. > >I think "captain" may be a mid-level rank in the Guards (or >at least Vlad thinks so). My conviction is that Khaavren >IS Warlord (compare the Warlord refernces in _Phoenix_ with >comments about Khaavren in _Orca_), with the biggest piece >of evidence the fact that Morrolan ain't. It seems that in Captain G'aereth's time the post of Brigadier-General of the Imperial Guard was vacant. From _Five Hundred Years After_, we know the Emperor promoted Lord Khaavren to Captain of the Red Boot Battalion of the Phoenix Guards. I believe it is likely that the admirable Tiassa, on resuming Imperial service, was promoted past that rank in the decades following the Interregnum. According to Kiera in _Orca_, Division Six of the Imperial Army General Staff Consultants is responsible to the Warlord. In the same paragraph, Kiera indicates that the Special Tasks Group reports to Lord Khaavren, and usage suggests Lord Khaavren and the Warlord are entirely separate people. Vlad says in _Teckla_ that Lord Khaavren is Brigadier of the Guards. While Vlad is only an Easterner, is therefore subject to both ignorance and wild ideas, I believe he may be right. Besides, no red-blooded Dragon would stand for a non-Dragon Warlord. I mean, really. The idea is very nearly preposterous. From Starshadw at aol.com Tue Jun 11 16:48:07 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 19:48:07 EDT Subject: Food and critters Message-ID: <106.135049fd.2a37e637@aol.com> > I recommend chronological order. It gives Jhereg and Teckla more > umph. ah! well, i beg to disagree. :) the writing style and the characters develop in a more natural and interesting manner in the written order. that is, of course, just my humble opinion...... I have to agree. I think you have to read them in the order they are written, at least the first time (and better for the first few times, really). After that, I don't think it matters as much which order. Stacy From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Jun 11 16:53:14 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 19:53:14 -0400 Subject: Nicknaming the books In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020611161955.00a74ec0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <649E1538-7D96-11D6-8B3B-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Tuesday, June 11, 2002, at 07:20 PM, Steven Brust wrote: > At 05:38 PM 6/11/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: > >>>> How about "Like uh Duh Moron" for Lord of Dzur Mountan? >>> >>> Unfortunately, I haven't written a book with that title. >>> >> Not *yet* you haven't, but isn't it part of Viscount, along with paths >> of the Dead? > > The three volumes of Viscount are: The Paths of the Dead, The Lord of > Castle Black, and the Enchantress of Dzur Mountain > Ahh...thank you! I was basing my knowledge on Internet rumors :-) > > > -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From Starshadw at aol.com Tue Jun 11 16:54:31 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 19:54:31 EDT Subject: Readalong-ing Message-ID: <4e.cc05ea9.2a37e7b7@aol.com> In a message dated 6/11/2002 3:52:35 PM Mountain Daylight Time, Gaertk at aol.com writes: > How do we want to handle spoiler protection when new books > come out? I suggest putting "SPOILER" in the subject and > at least ten lines of spoiler space preceding the spoilers. > > How long should we require spoiler protection? One month? > Well, technically, the readalong is supposed to work like a book club. So, the list would pick one book and then decide on how to "divvy" it up. For example, it might be decided to just give everyone a week to re-read an entire book, after which time whoever was leading the discussion would throw our some thoughts/questions to just get the discussion going. After that, others would of course respond and toss out ideas of their own. Or, we might decide to do a certain number of chapters per week instead of the entire book. So there wouldn't be a discussion going on any/all books at the same time - the intention (at least when I tossed it out there to see if we were all interested) was to keep it a wee bit more structured than that. Then, I would suggest that the subject line simply state the book title, then a quick description of the topic/question/speculation/idea of the post itself. I wouldn't think we'd need to worry about "spoiling" people since a book discussion HAS to discuss the book. If someone hadn't read Jhereg yet, then they would know by the fact that the title was in the subject line not to open any of the posts about said book. Stacy From mporter at rogers.com Tue Jun 11 17:13:41 2002 From: mporter at rogers.com (Mark Porter) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:13:41 -0400 Subject: Quick Question regarding Teckla Message-ID: <009701c211a6$01eabec0$59a97218@slnt.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Melissa Fitzgerald" > Vlad says in _Teckla_ that Lord Khaavren is Brigadier of the Guards. > While Vlad is only an Easterner, is therefore subject to both ignorance and > wild ideas, I believe he may be right. True, true. I glanced back at the last few pages today, and noticed that I had missed that. I have a bad tendency of reading all night, to the point where I'm almost falling asleep, because I just can't put the book down. However, this usually means I forget the last few pages I've read, and I had missed that mention of Khaavren. I'm glad to see he's still in action. ;-) > Besides, no red-blooded Dragon would stand for a non-Dragon Warlord. I > mean, really. The idea is very nearly preposterous. It IS preposterous - but fun to speculate about, however. Imagine a Yendi Warlord. If a war ever broke out, no doubt a Yendi would confuse them to the point that both sides completely forgot what they were fighting over, and probably manage to work out a new peace agreement in the process. (Actually, it would probably be even MORE complicated than that, but I don't even want to try to understand how a Yendi's mind works.) ______________________________ Mark Porter "Sword-chucks. God, I'm BRILLIANT!" From tyan at twcny.rr.com Tue Jun 11 17:19:33 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:19:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cawti's parentage Message-ID: <200206120019.g5C0JXOZ000794@localhost.twcny.rr.com> As mentioned here, there seem to be some clues about Cawti's lineage in _Brokedown Palace_. Here's some potentially relevant stuff I found. *** spoilers for Brokedown Palace *** (Her lineage is also interesting to consider when placed side by side with her clling someone a "Bastard" near the start of Ch14 in _Teckla_ (p443 in the omnibus edition).) Page numbers are for the mass market paperback version I own. Stuff in braces {like this} are my thoughts/questions. pp260-261. "Interlude" before Ch17 ** p260 ** "demons, demons, demons # everywhere # {3-fold repetition...?} part of life in Fenario, though not everyone knows this." "Pretty, pretty Margit, who lost her lover in the inn where the dzur stand. Will you never learn {what?}? Your daughter will learn, won't she {Brigitta?}? But only too late. Perhaps your daughter's daughter {Cawti?} will fare better {better? not ask too much of Vlad?}, and some say that will justify everything." "But in this land, # we don't ask to justify. We watch, and we wait, and we learn." {learn what?} ** {another *3*: Margit, daughter, grand-daughter} pp268-269. "Epilogue" ** p268 ** -"Devera tries not to say much about Brigitta, but her eyes fill with tears and she says although Brigitta will arrive safely, she cannot watch over Brigitta when she (Devera) is older."- ** [Devera says of Brigitta's daughter] "I won't have to watch *over* her; everyone else will have to watch *out* for her." {If Cawti: both as assassin *and* as revolutionary?} (This is from a bunch of detailed annotations I did -- and expect to continue. They can be found at http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/fandom/dbsa.html ) - tky From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Jun 11 17:47:20 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:47:20 -0400 Subject: META (was: Readalong-ing) Message-ID: <7A0E478A.5959DBAC.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Tue, 11 Jun 2002 ?8:01:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Starshadw at aol.com writes: > In a message dated 6/11/2002 3:52:35 PM Mountain Daylight > Time, Gaertk at aol.com writes: > > >> How do we want to handle spoiler protection when new >> books come out? ?I suggest putting "SPOILER" in the >> subject and at least ten lines of spoiler space >> preceding the spoilers. >> >> How long should we require spoiler protection? ?One >> month? Clarification: I was talking about spoiler protection for NEW books discussed on the main list (my fault for responding to a read along post). > Well, technically, the readalong is supposed to work like > a book club. ?So, the list would pick one book and then > decide on how to "divvy" it up. ?For example, it might be > decided to just give everyone a week to re-read an entire > book, after which time whoever was leading the discussion > would throw our some thoughts/questions to just get the > discussion going. ?After that, others would of course > respond and toss out ideas of their own. ?Or, we might > decide to do a certain number of chapters per week > instead of the entire book. I'm going to address these issues in another post on the readalong list. META It took me two tries to subscribe to the readalong list, and the same thing happened when I tried to suscribe to the main list. I'm not sure about the latter, but with the readalong list in my first attempt I cut&pasted to address given in the subscribe message, and the second time I just replied. Also, the web archive doesn't seem to thread messages; if you view by threads, you only get the latest message of each thread. And there's still nothing that says how to get the digest. --KG From eshivak at netzero.net Tue Jun 11 19:06:14 2002 From: eshivak at netzero.net (Eric Shivak) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 22:06:14 -0400 Subject: Athyra In-Reply-To: <1EFD2CEA-78E2-11D6-B1F6-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: You could also try ABE (American Book Exchange) www.abe.com. It's a website that is devoted to linking up small book sellers across the world that sell both new and used (mostly used) books. I've yet to be able to NOT find something I'm looking for... Eric -----Original Message----- From: Chris Turkel [mailto:zizban at adelphia.net] Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 8:13 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Athyra Try Alibris http://www.alibris.com/ They seem to have out of print books galore. I found Athyra for $74 (!) I have no idea why it's that expensive. On Wednesday, June 5, 2002, at 08:04 PM, Frozen Titan wrote: > Okay, I can't be the only one having this problem. I need to get > ahold of Athyra. I am stuck in the series and will not read them out of > release order. Heh heh. Does anyone know how I can get this book for a > decent price? I just want to read it, not be a collecter of rare > books. :) > I just learned about this list from a friend. It is great! > As a fun note, I have a beta account in Shadowbane and have had an > assassin character named Vlad (of course, modeled after Taltos). *grin* > > -Frozentitan > -------- Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Jun 11 21:11:36 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 11 Jun 2002 23:11:36 -0500 Subject: META: readalong list rules In-Reply-To: <200206111901.g5BJ1RjQ000460@localhost.twcny.rr.com> References: <1023767195.1388.TMDA@dd-b.net> <200206111901.g5BJ1RjQ000460@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) writes: > [Whoops, I meant this to go to the whole list, not just DDB.] > > "David Dyer-Bennet" wrote on 10 Jun 2002 22:46:35 > > Welcome To The Dragaera Readalong Mailing List > > V0.1 10-Jun-2002 > > -snip- > > > Spoilers for the book in question will certainly come up during the > > discussion. If you don't want to see spoilers, you should avoid this > > list! > > Include something about spoiler protection for later chapters and other books? I'm going to turn the readalong list loose tonight (people have already found it and signed up, I notice). I agree that what I wrote about spoilers is inadequate. The rules for that kind of synchronized-reading list will certainly want to be different from a general list. I put *something* in as a placeholder and encourage the list to work out what rules they actually want, and I'll put them in. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Jun 11 21:16:05 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 11 Jun 2002 23:16:05 -0500 Subject: Spoiler protection (was: META: readalong list rules) In-Reply-To: <3ECC4D7D.7D15295A.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <3ECC4D7D.7D15295A.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: Gaertk at aol.com writes: > [snip everything quoted] > > How do we want to handle spoiler protection when new books > come out? I suggest putting "SPOILER" in the subject and > at least ten lines of spoiler space preceding the spoilers. > > How long should we require spoiler protection? One month? We do need a policy, and hence some rules statement, in the main list. Unfortunately, I think serious spoilers need protection essentially *forever*. I see people running into trouble with that fairly frequently on rec.arts.sf.written, for example. Probably a shorter exclusion on *any* spoilers is a good idea too. Remember, lots of people will find the list after having just found the books and read the first few. Or maybe the most recent three instead. Or something. Serious spoilers coming... Examples of serious spoilers: Kiera the Thief is Sethra Lavode. Vlad has Aliera's brother's soul. Rosebud was his sled (oops, wrong universe). -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Jun 11 21:26:30 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 11 Jun 2002 23:26:30 -0500 Subject: META (was: Readalong-ing) In-Reply-To: <7A0E478A.5959DBAC.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <7A0E478A.5959DBAC.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: Gaertk at aol.com writes: > It took me two tries to subscribe to the readalong list, > and the same thing happened when I tried to suscribe to > the main list. I'm not sure about the latter, but with the > readalong list in my first attempt I cut&pasted to address > given in the subscribe message, and the second time I just > replied. It's certainly a long complicated address. Reply would be my first choice of how to respond to it. > Also, the web archive doesn't seem to thread messages; if > you view by threads, you only get the latest message of > each thread. It shows you the most recent message in the thread, but you can move forward and back in the thread using the appropriate arrows in the navigation bar, or see a list of messages in the thread by clicking the word "thread" between those arrows. > And there's still nothing that says how to get the digest. It's in the help message, but I do indeed mean to put *something* one the site to cue things a little. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From singram at videotron.ca Tue Jun 11 21:18:07 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 00:18:07 -0400 Subject: Spoiler protection (was: META: readalong list rules) and Kiera question References: <3ECC4D7D.7D15295A.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <000a01c211c8$27716730$17ecca18@ingram> > Remember, lots of people will find the list after having just found > the books and read the first few. Or maybe the most recent three > instead. Or something. > > Serious spoilers coming... > > Examples of serious spoilers: Okay, I think we're going to need a little more spoiler space than THAT. I read at a zillion words a minute so I read the spoilers while interpreting the single line spoiler warning. Fortunately for me, I've read all his books already, not that the secrets mentioned really assist that much (IMHO) in the understanding or enjoyments of his other books. Now that I think about it..... s p o i l e r Can anyone think of any instances in the Vlad books (aside from Orca, of course) where Sethra betrays her secret identity? For example: posesses knowledge or materials that she had no right to? From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Jun 11 21:36:28 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 11 Jun 2002 23:36:28 -0500 Subject: The Dragaera Readalong list is now open Message-ID: <1023856588.11364.TMDA@dd-b.net> Yeah, I know some of you found it last night. I knew it wasn't hidden. Chris Turkel volunteered to be in charge of the list, and we are gratefully accepting his offer. Further readalong discussion over there now! -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Jun 11 21:45:33 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 11 Jun 2002 23:45:33 -0500 Subject: Spoiler protection (was: META: readalong list rules) and Kiera question In-Reply-To: <000a01c211c8$27716730$17ecca18@ingram> References: <3ECC4D7D.7D15295A.00048EA6@aol.com> <000a01c211c8$27716730$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: "Scott Ingram" writes: > > Remember, lots of people will find the list after having just found > > the books and read the first few. Or maybe the most recent three > > instead. Or something. > > > > Serious spoilers coming... > > > > Examples of serious spoilers: > > > Okay, I think we're going to need a little more spoiler space than THAT. Ah. That was a standard form-feed spoiler space; should be guaranteed to produce a complete blank page, on any non-broken mail reader. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From nthuleen at students.wisc.edu Tue Jun 11 21:38:14 2002 From: nthuleen at students.wisc.edu (Nancy Thuleen) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 23:38:14 -0500 Subject: Spoiler protection In-Reply-To: References: <3ECC4D7D.7D15295A.00048EA6@aol.com> <000a01c211c8$27716730$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: At 23:45 -0500 11.6.2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > "Scott Ingram" writes: > > > Okay, I think we're going to need a little more spoiler space than THAT. > > Ah. That was a standard form-feed spoiler space; should be guaranteed > to produce a complete blank page, on any non-broken mail reader. Hmmm ... my newsreader interprets spoiler characters just fine, but my mail program (Eudora Mac) does not, apparently. I just got one blank line, which did seem a bit skimpy for any spoiler "space". Are spoiler characters really a standard for email as much as they are for Usenet? If so, Eudora is "broken", I guess. :( - Nancy. From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Jun 11 21:48:56 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 23:48:56 -0500 Subject: Spoiler protection (was: META: readalong list rules) In-Reply-To: References: <3ECC4D7D.7D15295A.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020612044856.GC22238@infodancer.org> On Tue, Jun 11, 2002 at 11:16:05PM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Gaertk at aol.com writes: > > [snip everything quoted] > > How do we want to handle spoiler protection when new books > > come out? I suggest putting "SPOILER" in the subject and > > at least ten lines of spoiler space preceding the spoilers. > > How long should we require spoiler protection? One month? > We do need a policy, and hence some rules statement, in the main > list. Unfortunately, I think serious spoilers need protection > essentially *forever*. I see people running into trouble with that > fairly frequently on rec.arts.sf.written, for example. Probably a > shorter exclusion on *any* spoilers is a good idea too. rasfw deals in a wide variety of authors. Any particular reader cannot hope to keep up with the reading of the entire group. In addition, many readers use discussion in rasfw as a way to locate new authors and books of interest. Thus, major spoilers need spoiler protection for long periods of time. Minor spoilers are protected after the first release for a short period of time, at least for works that receive significant discussion. However, more tightly focused discussion groups typically use a short spoiler period for new releases rather than the rasfw policy. As an example I cite rasfwr-j, perhaps the canonical "author-specialized rasfw subgroup". Spoiler protection operates there for perhaps a month following each new release, after which point it is assumed that those reading the group have acquired and read the latest. Any other policy will tend to stifle discussion of the latest works. > Remember, lots of people will find the list after having just found > the books and read the first few. Or maybe the most recent three > instead. Or something. This simply indicates that it is impossible to provide protection >from spoilers to everyone. Those who have not read everything available need to accept a risk of spoilage if they choose to participate in discussions about the work -- for that very reason I tend to be very careful what I read (on rasfw or elsewhere) about a given book or series if I intend to read it later. There is a short window of time after the release of a book when it is feasible to say "This particular book needs spoiler protection, because a significant number of people have not had the chance to read it." Trying to extend that to ALL books being discussed renders it pointless -- if all discussion must have spoiler warnings, just put a great big spoiler warning in the rules and be done with it. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Jun 11 21:55:47 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 23:55:47 -0500 Subject: Spoiler protection (was: META: readalong list rules) and Kiera question In-Reply-To: <000a01c211c8$27716730$17ecca18@ingram> References: <3ECC4D7D.7D15295A.00048EA6@aol.com> <000a01c211c8$27716730$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: <20020612045547.GD22238@infodancer.org> On Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 12:18:07AM -0400, Scott Ingram wrote: > > Remember, lots of people will find the list after having just found > > the books and read the first few. Or maybe the most recent three > > instead. Or something. > > Serious spoilers coming... > > Examples of serious spoilers: > > > Okay, I think we're going to need a little more spoiler space than THAT. Ah, yes, my old friend the "broken news/mail readers can't see ASCII formfeeds" discussion. Can we just pretend to have it and skip to the next step? > s > p > o > i > l > e > r > > > Can anyone think of any instances in the Vlad books (aside from Orca, of > course) where Sethra betrays her secret identity? For example: posesses > knowledge or materials that she had no right to? The obvious ones: she has the blood of a goddess, and she gives Vlad the gem during his Jhereg war. As Kiera, she never eats anything (always described as drinking something, or "picking at her food"). Vlad comments on this at least once before Orca. I remember finding a couple other minor discrepancies, but not recently enough for them to be fresh in my mind. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Jun 11 21:57:54 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 23:57:54 -0500 Subject: Spoiler protection In-Reply-To: References: <3ECC4D7D.7D15295A.00048EA6@aol.com> <000a01c211c8$27716730$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: <20020612045754.GE22238@infodancer.org> On Tue, Jun 11, 2002 at 11:38:14PM -0500, Nancy Thuleen wrote: > At 23:45 -0500 11.6.2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > "Scott Ingram" writes: > > > Okay, I think we're going to need a little more spoiler space than THAT. > > Ah. That was a standard form-feed spoiler space; should be guaranteed > > to produce a complete blank page, on any non-broken mail reader. > Hmmm ... my newsreader interprets spoiler characters just fine, > but my mail program (Eudora Mac) does not, apparently. I just > got one blank line, which did seem a bit skimpy for any spoiler > "space". Are spoiler characters really a standard for email as > much as they are for Usenet? If so, Eudora is "broken", I > guess. :( Nearly every Windows-based newsreader and mailreader are broken in this regard, last I checked. Newsgroups use spoiler characters more, so there is some demand for a newsreader that supports them. The actual character is defined in ASCII, however, and thus applies equally to news and mail readers. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Jun 11 23:00:56 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 12 Jun 2002 01:00:56 -0500 Subject: Spoiler protection In-Reply-To: References: <3ECC4D7D.7D15295A.00048EA6@aol.com> <000a01c211c8$27716730$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: Nancy Thuleen writes: > At 23:45 -0500 11.6.2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > "Scott Ingram" writes: > > > > > Okay, I think we're going to need a little more spoiler space than THAT. > > > > Ah. That was a standard form-feed spoiler space; should be guaranteed > > to produce a complete blank page, on any non-broken mail reader. > > Hmmm ... my newsreader interprets spoiler characters just fine, but my mail program (Eudora Mac) does not, apparently. I just got one blank line, which did seem a bit skimpy for any spoiler "space". Are spoiler characters really a standard for email as much as they are for Usenet? If so, Eudora is "broken", I guess. :( Formfeed is a standard ASCII character that means advance to the next page. If the program doesn't, that sounds pretty broken to me. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jun 12 00:24:48 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 00:24:48 -0700 Subject: Spoiler protection In-Reply-To: References: <3ECC4D7D.7D15295A.00048EA6@aol.com> <000a01c211c8$27716730$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020612002429.00a75e80@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:38 PM 6/11/2002 -0500, Nancy Thuleen wrote: >Hmmm ... my newsreader interprets spoiler characters just fine, but my >mail program (Eudora Mac) does not, apparently. I just got one blank >line, which did seem a bit skimpy for any spoiler "space". Are spoiler >characters really a standard for email as much as they are for Usenet? If >so, Eudora is "broken", I guess. :( My Eudora agrees with yours. From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Wed Jun 12 01:04:35 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 03:04:35 -0500 Subject: Food and critters References: <000801c2118e$ac6602f0$1401a8c0@Spencer> Message-ID: Lisa Grant Coffin wrote: > Anthony Tedjamulia wrote: > >> I recommend chronological order. It gives Jhereg and Teckla more >> umph. > > ah! well, i beg to disagree. :) the writing style and the characters > develop in a more natural and interesting manner in the written > order. that is, of course, just my humble opinion...... Hey think about how interesting it'd be if you just read one chapter from one book and then chapter 2 from the second, etc etc -- Pshaw reading whole books at a time you crazy people From singram at videotron.ca Wed Jun 12 05:01:59 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:01:59 -0400 Subject: Spoiler protection References: <3ECC4D7D.7D15295A.00048EA6@aol.com> <000a01c211c8$27716730$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: <000e01c21208$f50ca480$17ecca18@ingram> David Dyer-Bennet writes: > Formfeed is a standard ASCII character that means advance to the next > page. If the program doesn't, that sounds pretty broken to me. Perhaps, but if the standards are incompatible with Outlook Express and Eudora then your reasonable and logical standards are incompatible with the (probably, I haven't done a survey) majority of the subscriber's mail clients. Anyone know of a way to make OE and Eudora recognize formfeeds? If not, I suggest we use another 'character'. From dragaera at juima.org Wed Jun 12 05:29:21 2002 From: dragaera at juima.org (Sander) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:29:21 +0200 Subject: Spoiler protection (was: META: readalong list rules) References: <3ECC4D7D.7D15295A.00048EA6@aol.com> <20020612044856.GC22238@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <3D073EA1.9050700@juima.org> Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Tue, Jun 11, 2002 at 11:16:05PM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >>Gaertk at aol.com writes: >>>How long should we require spoiler protection? One month? >> >>We do need a policy, and hence some rules statement, in the main >>list. Unfortunately, I think serious spoilers need protection >>essentially *forever*. > > However, more tightly focused discussion groups typically use a > short spoiler period for new releases rather than the rasfw > policy. As an example I cite rasfwr-j, perhaps the canonical > "author-specialized rasfw subgroup". Spoiler protection operates > there for perhaps a month following each new release, after which > point it is assumed that those reading the group have acquired > and read the latest. > > Any other policy will tend to stifle discussion of the latest > works. Although I only look into rawsfr-j once or twice a month, I did get the distinct impression they warn for spoilers a lot longer than just one month. Maybe spoiler space is only included for a month, but spoiler warnings in the threadtitles can easily be applied a lot longer. I also disagree with this stifling discussion. The WoT Book Forum at wheeloftime.com has the policy of warning for spoilers for roughly three to six months after the release of a new book (and warning for the really serious spoilers (comparable to those David gave) at least until the release of the paperback a year later) and this does in no way stifle discussion. Adding a [spoiler] in the subject is no work at all for us, and the benefits to the people who haven't read the latest book can be huge. It's also the polite thing to do. As for the 'spoiler space' character, it's a shame most email clients are broken with regards to it, but since that's the case, using a few hard linebreaks seems preferable. (Also because the web-archives of the list don't do the right thing either.) I do hope we'll manage to keep this list slightly more accessible to less tech-savvy people, not to mention to those who haven't read all the books yet (and thus less 'elitist' if you want), than your typical usenet group. May you always find shade and water, Sander From adina at panix.com Wed Jun 12 06:36:33 2002 From: adina at panix.com (Adina Adler) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:36:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Spoiler protection In-Reply-To: (message from David Dyer-Bennet on 12 Jun 2002 01:00:56 -0500) References: <3ECC4D7D.7D15295A.00048EA6@aol.com> <000a01c211c8$27716730$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: <200206121336.g5CDaXh02697@panix3.panix.com> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > >Nancy Thuleen writes: > >> At 23:45 -0500 11.6.2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >> > "Scott Ingram" writes: >> > >> > > Okay, I think we're going to need a little more spoiler space than THAT. >> > >> > Ah. That was a standard form-feed spoiler space; should be guaranteed >> > to produce a complete blank page, on any non-broken mail reader. >> >> Hmmm ... my newsreader interprets spoiler characters just fine, but my mail program (Eudora Mac) does not, apparently. I just got one blank line, which did seem a bit skimpy for any spoiler "space". Are spoiler characters really a standard for email as much as they are for Usenet? If so, Eudora is "broken", I guess. :( > >Formfeed is a standard ASCII character that means advance to the next >page. If the program doesn't, that sounds pretty broken to me. Emacs rmail didn't do anything with it either, which really surprised me, because I know that ctrl-l works in gnus. There was a long discussion of this in rec.arts.sf.fandom recently, and the consensus was that we needed to actually insert 20 blank lines before any spoilers. Also, about one month being long enough--I've been in several newsgroups where we were discussing television, and people from different countries would be 1 or 2 seasons behind. We'd put up spoiler warnings on a new episode for at least a year, and it didn't stifle discussion. -- Adina From anthony at netdocuments.com Wed Jun 12 07:42:02 2002 From: anthony at netdocuments.com (Anthony Tedjamulia) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:42:02 -0600 Subject: Food and critters Message-ID: > Hey think about how interesting it'd be > if you just read one chapter from > one book and then chapter 2 from the > second, etc etc -- Pshaw reading whole > books at a time you crazy people Strangely, that's kinda the way it felt when reading Taltoss. All that jumping around like a kid on Pixie Stix and ADHD or something. I almost got motion sickness reading it. :P From Gaertk at aol.com Wed Jun 12 07:40:13 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:40:13 -0400 Subject: Spoiler protection with *SPOILERS* Message-ID: <4756A552.1941ED0B.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:16:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "Scott Ingram" writes: [attrib got snipped, this from dd-b] >> Remember, lots of people will find the list after having >> just found the books and read the first few. ?Or maybe >> the most recent three instead. ?Or something. >> >> Serious spoilers coming... Control-L doesn't apprear to be supported much (if at all) by email readers, so lets use 10-20 lines (blank or otherwise) instead. I usually do less spoiler space if its preceded by non-spoiler text. >> Examples of serious spoilers: > > > Okay, I think we're going to need a little more spoiler > space than THAT. Also, if you put spoilers in a post, please put "SPOILER" in the subject, IN A WAY that makes it clear you're not just talking about spoiler protection. Just for the record, I personally believe in eternal spoiler protection for the Greater Revelation of Orca. >s >p >o >i >l >e >r s p a c e > Can anyone think of any instances in the Vlad books (aside > from Orca, of course) where Sethra betrays her secret > identity? ?For example: posesses knowledge or materials > that she had no right to? The only ones I can think of are her understanding of Jhereg politics in _Jhereg_, and her guessing Vlad's reaction to getting a medal in _Dragon_. I think there were a few other times Vlad wonders how she knows him so well. --KG From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Wed Jun 12 08:14:29 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:14:29 -0500 Subject: Spoiler protection References: <3ECC4D7D.7D15295A.00048EA6@aol.com> <000a01c211c8$27716730$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: <3D076555.E7346FBE@attbi.com> DDB said: Formfeed is a standard ASCII character that means advance to the next page. If the program doesn't, that sounds pretty broken to me. I'm confused. Formfeed, I thought, was a printer command. I've never seen an email program that had actual "pages"; word processors do, but not email. What am I missing. Mia Just being curious. From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Jun 12 08:13:38 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:13:38 -0500 Subject: Spoiler protection (was: META: readalong list rules) In-Reply-To: <3D073EA1.9050700@juima.org> References: <3ECC4D7D.7D15295A.00048EA6@aol.com> <20020612044856.GC22238@infodancer.org> <3D073EA1.9050700@juima.org> Message-ID: <20020612151338.GA25666@infodancer.org> On Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 02:29:21PM +0200, Sander wrote: > Matthew Hunter wrote: > >Any other policy will tend to stifle discussion of the latest > >works. > > Although I only look into rawsfr-j once or twice a month, I did get the > distinct impression they warn for spoilers a lot longer than just one > month. Maybe spoiler space is only included for a month, but spoiler > warnings in the threadtitles can easily be applied a lot longer. This is true. Following is the Spoiler Policy from the rasfwr-j FAQ: Section 3.2: Spoiler Policy: NOTE: This section is left in so that people can see what the policy was last year, and what it will likely resemble for Book Ten. However, it is NOT CURRENTLY IN FORCE. When a new book comes out, some people obtain and read it before other people do. People who have read parts of the book want to talk about them, but people who haven't gotten that far don't want you to spoil the surprises for them. After long discussion prior to the release of _Winter's Heart_, there was consensus for the following policy: 1) Try to enforce spoiler protection for _Winter's Heart_ for two or three weeks after the release of the book. Trying to enforce anything for any longer than that simply turns out to be unfeasible, and very annoying. 2) Therefore, in the subject header, make people aware of the content by adding either the prefix tag WH: to the subject, or the word "Spoilers!" to the subject. Preferably both. Additionally, do not use a title that is, itself, a spoiler. For instance, if it turns out that Tam al'Thor killed Asmodean, then a subject of: WH: Tam killed Asmodean!! (Spoilers) Doesn't really help us. 3) Finally, once you've done that, then in the body of the message, insert either a page break or a screen of whitespace before your actual spoilers. While not all newsreaders accept page breaks, neither are all terminal sizes limited to 24 lines. It is the opinion of this FAQ writer that newsreaders that do not accept page breaks are broken by implementation. It is also the opinion of this FAQ writer that anyone who braves a post marked "Spoilers!" in the header gets exactly what he or she deserves, whether through a broken newsreader failing to implement a page break, or through a post with insufficient whitespace for his screen settings. ------------------- This is a good policy. I suggest we follow something close to it. > I also disagree with this stifling discussion. The WoT Book Forum at > wheeloftime.com has the policy of warning for spoilers for roughly three > to six months after the release of a new book (and warning for the > really serious spoilers (comparable to those David gave) at least until > the release of the paperback a year later) and this does in no way > stifle discussion. > > Adding a [spoiler] in the subject is no work at all for us, and the > benefits to the people who haven't read the latest book can be huge. > It's also the polite thing to do. I have no issue with this for recent books. > As for the 'spoiler space' character, it's a shame most email clients > are broken with regards to it, but since that's the case, using a few > hard linebreaks seems preferable. (Also because the web-archives of the > list don't do the right thing either.) I don't mind using linebreaks. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From sraun at fireopal.org Wed Jun 12 10:05:05 2002 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:05:05 -0500 Subject: Spoiler protection In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020612002429.00a75e80@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <3ECC4D7D.7D15295A.00048EA6@aol.com> <000a01c211c8$27716730$17ecca18@ingram> <5.1.0.14.0.20020612002429.00a75e80@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <20020612170505.GA14100@fireopal.org> On Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 12:24:48AM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: > At 11:38 PM 6/11/2002 -0500, Nancy Thuleen wrote: > > >Hmmm ... my newsreader interprets spoiler characters just fine, but my > >mail program (Eudora Mac) does not, apparently. I just got one blank > >line, which did seem a bit skimpy for any spoiler "space". Are spoiler > >characters really a standard for email as much as they are for Usenet? If > >so, Eudora is "broken", I guess. :( > > My Eudora agrees with yours. My mutt agrees - it shows ^L on a separate line, and that's all it does. I'll vote for physical space. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org From zizban at adelphia.net Wed Jun 12 10:10:28 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:10:28 -0400 Subject: Spoiler protection In-Reply-To: <20020612170505.GA14100@fireopal.org> Message-ID: <4B820D66-7E27-11D6-982F-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Wednesday, June 12, 2002, at 01:05 PM, Scott Raun wrote: > On Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 12:24:48AM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: >> At 11:38 PM 6/11/2002 -0500, Nancy Thuleen wrote: >> >>> Hmmm ... my newsreader interprets spoiler characters just fine, but my >>> mail program (Eudora Mac) does not, apparently. I just got one blank >>> line, which did seem a bit skimpy for any spoiler "space". Are >>> spoiler >>> characters really a standard for email as much as they are for >>> Usenet? If >>> so, Eudora is "broken", I guess. :( >> >> My Eudora agrees with yours. > > My mutt agrees - it shows ^L on a separate line, and that's all it does. > > I'll vote for physical space. > > -- > Scott Raun > sraun at fireopal.org I second the motion! From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Jun 12 10:41:26 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:41:26 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Spoiler protection In-Reply-To: Mia McDavid's message <3D076555.E7346FBE@attbi.com> of 12 June 2002 References: <3ECC4D7D.7D15295A.00048EA6@aol.com> <000a01c211c8$27716730$17ecca18@ingram> <3D076555.E7346FBE@attbi.com> Message-ID: <15623.34758.477818.522218@gw.dd-b.net> Mia McDavid writes on 12 June 2002 at 10:14:29 -0500 > DDB said: > > > Formfeed is a standard ASCII character that means advance to the next > page. If the program doesn't, that sounds pretty broken to me. > > I'm confused. Formfeed, I thought, was a printer command. I've never > seen an email program that had actual "pages"; word processors do, but > not email. What am I missing. Every mail and news viewing program I know divides long messages into pages. Most often, the space bar advances to the next page. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From books at bofh.com Wed Jun 12 10:32:56 2002 From: books at bofh.com (books at bofh.com) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:32:56 -0700 (MST) Subject: Spoiler protection (was: META: readalong list rules) In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:23:34 -0500" <20020611232334.GC16187@infodancer.org> References: <3ECC4D7D.7D15295A.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <01KIU9HD8Q080009IX@chud.net> >On Tue, Jun 11, 2002 at 05:55:08PM -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: >> I can agree with that. I hate the "spoolier" that is spelt out down the >> page. As for a buffer; I'd say six months, at least. Not everyone can >> afford a hardcover. Everyone can afford membership to their local library. -Jot From dragaera at juima.org Wed Jun 12 10:52:21 2002 From: dragaera at juima.org (Sander) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 19:52:21 +0200 Subject: Spoiler protection (was: META: readalong list rules) References: <3ECC4D7D.7D15295A.00048EA6@aol.com> <01KIU9HD8Q080009IX@chud.net> Message-ID: <3D078A55.40305@juima.org> books at bofh.com wrote: >>On Tue, Jun 11, 2002 at 05:55:08PM -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: >>>As for a buffer; I'd say six months, at least. Not everyone can >>>afford a hardcover. > > Everyone can afford membership to their local library. Sad to say, not all libraries stock Steve's books. Certainly not outside the USA. From bertowud at gator.net Wed Jun 12 09:53:20 2002 From: bertowud at gator.net (Robert Wood) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:53:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Spoiler protection (was: META: readalong list rules) In-Reply-To: <3D078A55.40305@juima.org> References: <3D078A55.40305@juima.org> Message-ID: <55864.209.208.44.34.1023900800.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> > books at bofh.com wrote: >>>On Tue, Jun 11, 2002 at 05:55:08PM -0400, Chris Turkel >>> wrote: >>>>As for a buffer; I'd say six months, at least. Not everyone can >>>>afford a hardcover. >> >> Everyone can afford membership to their local library. > > Sad to say, not all libraries stock Steve's books. Certainly not > outside the USA. And when the per capita age in your city is 65. From bertowud at gator.net Wed Jun 12 09:59:26 2002 From: bertowud at gator.net (Robert Wood) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:59:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Spoiler protection (was: META: readalong list rules) In-Reply-To: <55864.209.208.44.34.1023900800.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> References: <55864.209.208.44.34.1023900800.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> Message-ID: <56061.209.208.44.34.1023901166.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> >> Sad to say, not all libraries stock Steve's books. Certainly not >> outside the USA. > > And when the per capita age in your city is 65. No offense intended to anyone. From tyan at twcny.rr.com Wed Jun 12 11:04:58 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:04:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Readalong-ing again (was: META) In-Reply-To: <7A0E478A.5959DBAC.00048EA6@aol.com> (Gaertk@aol.com) References: <7A0E478A.5959DBAC.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <200206121804.g5CI4wXj000379@localhost.twcny.rr.com> [slightly rearranged] Gaertk at aol.com wrote on Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:47:20 > I'm going to address these issues in another post on the > readalong list. To give people a chance to sign up for the readalong list, I tentatively suggest we continue discussing it *here* for another day or so. > Starshadw at aol.com writes: > > > Well, technically, the readalong is supposed to work like > > a book club. So, the list would pick one book and then > > decide on how to "divvy" it up. [...] Idea: The readalong charter should include the requirement that *this* mailing list be informed of the following: + The start of a readalong discussion of a book. + The end of a readalong discussion of a book / The start of a readalong discussion of which book to do next. It also seems to me that when a new Brust book is out, it's one natural choice for a readalong. I almost want to say there should be another mailing list, latest-book, that is used for the first month or two that a new book is out: + It might simplify spoiler protection a bit. + Anyone who is still catching up, e.g. on the Vlad series, or doesn't have the resources to read a book the instant it is out can more easily avoid spoiler-filled discussion, of which there will probably be a lot. (Unsubscribing temporarily sounds double ungood unfun.) - tky From tyan at twcny.rr.com Wed Jun 12 11:05:53 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:05:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Spoiler protection (was: META: readalong list rules) and Kiera question In-Reply-To: <20020612045547.GD22238@infodancer.org> (message from Matthew Hunter on Tue, 11 Jun 2002 23:55:47 -0500) References: <20020612045547.GD22238@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <200206121805.g5CI5rj6000382@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Matthew Hunter wrote on Tue, 11 Jun 2002 23:55:47 > On Wed, Jun 12, 2002 Scott Ingram wrote: > > [DDB gave spoilers with only a form-feed for spoiler protection] > > > > Okay, I think we're going to need a little more spoiler space than THAT. Agreed! > Ah, yes, my old friend the "broken news/mail readers can't see > ASCII formfeeds" discussion. > > Can we just pretend to have it and skip to the next step? I vote for spoiler protection all the time. Yes, this mailing list is more focused than, say, RASFW, but I think it's kind of unfriendly to do otherwise to newcomers who have not read all of Steve's books. Heck, I still have not yet read his collaborations, and would be annoyed to stumble upon spoilers. I also prefer blank lines (say, 16), but on another mailing list, it turned out some people's mail programs ate blank lines (and/or it looked to them like the message was done, so they didn't scroll down). *** Spoilers for Orca *** > > s > > p > > o > > i > > l > > e > > r > > > > > > Can anyone think of any instances in the Vlad books (aside from Orca, of > > course) where Sethra betrays her secret identity? For example: posesses > > knowledge or materials that she had no right to? > > The obvious ones: she has the blood of a goddess, and she gives > Vlad the gem during his Jhereg war. > > As Kiera, she never eats anything (always described as drinking > something, or "picking at her food"). Vlad comments on this at > least once before Orca. Nitpick: She doesn't eat *much*. However, in Orca Kiera says she eats breakfast (p168), and she samples some of the raw ingredients that Vlad is cooking with (p112). > I remember finding a couple other minor discrepancies, but not > recently enough for them to be fresh in my mind. I don't remember discrepancies, exactly. In _Taltos_: ** pp66-77. ch7. p67: Loiosh meets Sethra: "Have we ever run into her before?" "Ummm, Loiosh, I think we'd remember if we had." - tky From mss2 at attbi.com Wed Jun 12 11:15:27 2002 From: mss2 at attbi.com (Michael S. Schiffer) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:15:27 -0500 Subject: Spoiler protection In-Reply-To: <15623.34758.477818.522218@gw.dd-b.net> References: <3ECC4D7D.7D15295A.00048EA6@aol.com> <000a01c211c8$27716730$17ecca18@ingram> <3D076555.E7346FBE@attbi.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020612125224.02a88008@mail.attbi.com> At 12:41 PM 6/12/2002 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >Mia McDavid writes on 12 June 2002 at 10:14:29 -0500 > > DDB said: > > Formfeed is a standard ASCII character that means advance to the next > > page. If the program doesn't, that sounds pretty broken to me. > > I'm confused. Formfeed, I thought, was a printer command. I've never > > seen an email program that had actual "pages"; word processors do, but > > not email. What am I missing. >Every mail and news viewing program I know divides long messages into >pages. Most often, the space bar advances to the next page. It's not really a division into pages, though. Sure, you can go a screen down. But you can also go a line down, or three lines down, by using the arrow keys or the mouse wheel-- and then go a screen down from there, which will give you a "page" starting and ending at different lines. The screen size varies with the size of the window as well-- it could be five lines high, or fifty-five, and can be changed with a click-and-drag. I'm sure that you could implement something along the lines of the formfeed character inserting as many lines as the current window size, or some standard number of lines like 25, but it doesn't seem to be commonly done. (Is one of these how gnus handles formfeed in different sized X windows?) Regardless of whether mail programs could or should implement the formfeed character in some way, in practice they mostly don't. This isn't just the usual case of Microsoft ignoring net standards-- it seems to be the case across operating systems and mail programs from different sources. At some point, a standard becomes pretty theoretical if it's only implemented in a minority of the available software. If we're going to have some sort of spoiler protection, it should be one that works or can work for most of the list members. I've even given up using Control-L on Usenet in favor of inserting whitespace. There are just too many programs-- not just OE-- that ignore it. (Though I hadn't know that there are e-mail programs that eat whitespace.) Mike From akomins at midway.uchicago.edu Wed Jun 12 11:37:17 2002 From: akomins at midway.uchicago.edu (Arin Komins) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:37:17 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Readalong-ing again (was: META) In-Reply-To: <200206121804.g5CI4wXj000379@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, Thomas Yan wrote: :Subject: Re: Readalong-ing again (was: META) : [snip] :Idea: The readalong charter should include the requirement that *this* :mailing list be informed of the following: : :+ The start of a readalong discussion of a book. : :+ The end of a readalong discussion of a book / : The start of a readalong discussion of which book to do next. I'd like to second this, as I'd like to discuss some of Brust's books (Agyar and To Reign in Hell are my main ones), but don't really feel like joining in for many of the Dragaera ones. With notification to this list, I could get notified when it's time to join readalong ;-) Arin -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Arin Komins akomins at uchicago.edu Manager of Web Systems Architecture University of Chicago/NSIT tel: (773)834-4087 1155 E. 60th St. #302B Chicago, IL 60637 fax: (773)702-0559 ------------------------------------------------------------------ From rsuitor at cjwrfs.net Wed Jun 12 12:18:48 2002 From: rsuitor at cjwrfs.net (Richard Suitor) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 15:18:48 -0400 Subject: Spoiler protection In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020612002429.00a75e80@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <3ECC4D7D.7D15295A.00048EA6@aol.com> <000a01c211c8$27716730$17ecca18@ingram> <5.1.0.14.0.20020612002429.00a75e80@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <157fgug2pkvkmaer6fmsbvf00oi1tn73s7@4ax.com> On Wed, 12 Jun 2002 00:24:48 -0700, Steven Brust wrote: >At 11:38 PM 6/11/2002 -0500, Nancy Thuleen wrote: > >>Hmmm ... my newsreader interprets spoiler characters just fine, but my >>mail program (Eudora Mac) does not, apparently. I just got one blank >>line, which did seem a bit skimpy for any spoiler "space". Are spoiler >>characters really a standard for email as much as they are for Usenet? If >>so, Eudora is "broken", I guess. :( > >My Eudora agrees with yours. Forte Agent does not do much with form feed, either. I will skip the dissertation about the difference between printer formatting and window formatting. I don't care about spoilers myself, but if you want to take it seriously, do the s p o .... etc or equivalent. If you wish to support spoiler warnings in linear digests, do it before and after the message. Personally, for an author whom I read because I like the way he writes and like to be in the worlds he creates, I think spoilers of little relevance. They will be an annoyance to Steve -- I would think that in this group that would be a major inducement not to use them. But others may have different views. Richard From Gaertk at aol.com Wed Jun 12 17:49:14 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 20:49:14 -0400 Subject: Readalong-ing again (was: META) Message-ID: <45B1EF8F.5198E3CD.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Wed, 12 Jun 2002 ?3:39:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Arin Komins writes: > On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, Thomas Yan wrote: > [snip] > >> Idea: The readalong charter should include the >> requirement that *this* mailing list be informed of the >> following: >> >> + The start of a readalong discussion of a book. >> >> + The end of a readalong discussion of a book / >> ? The start of a readalong discussion of which book to >> do next. > > I'd like to second this, as I'd like to discuss some of > Brust's books (Agyar and To Reign in Hell are my main > ones), but don't really feel like joining in for many of > the Dragaera ones. It never occurred to me to discuss non-Dragaera books on here (or there). I don't see any reason not to though. My vision of the readalong list was place to pick apart the books looking for clues to stuff in other books (including ones not yet written), and there just isn't much point in doing that with the stand alone books. YMMV Hmm. Now that I think about it, I wouldn't mind doing the Liavek stories on the readalong list, including the ones not written by Brust. Would that be too far off charter? --KG From Gaertk at aol.com Wed Jun 12 17:58:30 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 20:58:30 -0400 Subject: [Readalong] Administrivia Message-ID: <5AF429ED.31E431D3.00048EA6@aol.com> [This is a repost for folks who weren't on the readalong list when I originally sent it. If you saw that post, you can ignore this one.] Disclaimer: I'm not in charge of this list, and I don't want to be. Some questions: Are we discussing Khaavren books and Brokedown Palace too? How much are we biting off at a time? I like the idea of doing one chapter at a time so we can really delve in and analyse the heck out of eveything, but there's a total of about 250 chapters (including interludes, epilogues, etc) which at one a week would take 5 years, even at one a day it'd take nearly a year. A whole book at a time wouldn't allow too much depth of discussions before moving on. So compromise with a few chapters? And how much time between chunks? What order do we do them? Published, chronological, alphabetical, random, Cycle? For those of you unclear on the exact chronological order [checks for original, dang didn't copy that to this computer, Google, cut, paste, change a word...] ----------------- Dragaera Books Sorted By Chronological Order of Events This is very nearly [1] the closest you can get to the chronological order of events without actually chopping apart individual chapters. [The Khaavren Romances] _The Phoenix Guards_ _Five Hundred Years After_ _The Viscount of Adrilankha_ [not yet published] [Stand Alone Fenarian Book] _Brokedown Palace_ [Mobster Vlad] Prologue of _Jhereg_ (overlaps some flashbacks in _Taltos_) _Taltos_ _Dragon_, skipping Interludes _Yendi_ Interludes from _Dragon_ Rest of _Jhereg_ _Teckla_ _Phoenix_ [Retired Vlad] _Athyra_ _Orca_ [*] _Issola_ "A Dream of Passion" -- I've come to the conclusion that this short story is in fact just a dream that Vlad had sometime after the first couple of chapters in _Dragon_. Read it any time after you've read at least one of the mobster books. ------------ [1] Technically, the Prologues from _Athyra_ and _Orca_ and the Interludes of the latter should be moved to after Chapter 17 of their respective books, but this hurts the flow of the prose without adding anything. ------------ [*] Even if you ignore the rest of this post (due to availability or contrariness) please, Please read as many Vlad books as you can before _Orca_. A certain scene at the end of _Orca_ is the only thing that I believe really Needs spoiler protection. There are a few comments in _Issola_ that might spoil _Orca_, depending on how good you are at guessing. --------------- --KG From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Jun 13 07:55:11 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 13 Jun 2002 09:55:11 -0500 Subject: Readalong-ing again (was: META) In-Reply-To: <45B1EF8F.5198E3CD.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <45B1EF8F.5198E3CD.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: Gaertk at aol.com writes: > In a message dated Wed, 12 Jun 2002 ?3:39:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Arin Komins writes: > > > On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, Thomas Yan wrote: > > > [snip] > > > >> Idea: The readalong charter should include the > >> requirement that *this* mailing list be informed of the > >> following: > >> > >> + The start of a readalong discussion of a book. > >> > >> + The end of a readalong discussion of a book / > >> ? The start of a readalong discussion of which book to > >> do next. > > > > I'd like to second this, as I'd like to discuss some of > > Brust's books (Agyar and To Reign in Hell are my main > > ones), but don't really feel like joining in for many of > > the Dragaera ones. > > It never occurred to me to discuss non-Dragaera books on > here (or there). I don't see any reason not to though. While we've named the site, and the primary mailing lsit, "Dragaera", we definitely intended to cover *all* of Steven's works. So it doesn't seem strange to me for the readalong list to wish to do so. > My vision of the readalong list was place to pick apart the > books looking for clues to stuff in other books (including > ones not yet written), and there just isn't much point in > doing that with the stand alone books. YMMV Library reading groups and such frequently do standalone books. There isn't the same hunt for connections between books that you have with a series, but there's still plenty to discuss just in the single book. > Hmm. Now that I think about it, I wouldn't mind doing the > Liavek stories on the readalong list, including the ones > not written by Brust. Would that be too far off charter? Off-hand, I'm pretty sure it's not something we'd want to say "no" to. If the readalong list wants to do so at some future time, I mean. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From Gaertk at aol.com Thu Jun 13 07:42:25 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:42:25 -0400 Subject: Traffic Message-ID: <694E672C.68E152DD.00048EA6@aol.com> List volume is down from over 100 messages a day to a dozen or so the past couple days, and at the time I'm writing this, the last two messages are from me, and those are over 12 hours old. I guess the initial spike was from a ton of people finding out about a new list where the Author actually *answers* *questions* and hurried over to learn the answers to life, the universe, and how to make klava. After getting their answers, they're now busy catching up on all the stuff they were supposed to be doing last week. Which reminds me of something that's bugged me ever since I read _Orca_: Where was Kiera when Stony died? She stirs up trouble, chats with him, *hurries* to the blue cottage, and arrives almost exactly a *day* after he dies. --KG From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Jun 13 08:47:36 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:47:36 -0400 Subject: Traffic In-Reply-To: <694E672C.68E152DD.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thursday, June 13, 2002, at 10:42 AM, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > What's helped is the list being split in three. From singram at videotron.ca Thu Jun 13 08:51:43 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:51:43 -0400 Subject: Readalong-ing again (was: META) References: <45B1EF8F.5198E3CD.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <00f201c212f2$374ca270$17ecca18@ingram> > > In a message dated Wed, 12 Jun 2002 3:39:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Arin Komins writes: > > > > My vision of the readalong list was place to pick apart the > > books looking for clues to stuff in other books (including > > ones not yet written), and there just isn't much point in > > doing that with the stand alone books. YMMV I dunno. Rumor has it that Devera can be found in most of Steve's books, possibly in his income tax forms as well. You could always pick his other books apart for evidence of her. From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Jun 13 08:53:06 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:53:06 -0400 Subject: Readalong-ing again (was: META) In-Reply-To: <00f201c212f2$374ca270$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: On Thursday, June 13, 2002, at 11:51 AM, Scott Ingram wrote: >>> In a message dated Wed, 12 Jun 2002 3:39:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > Arin Komins writes: >>> >>> My vision of the readalong list was place to pick apart the >>> books looking for clues to stuff in other books (including >>> ones not yet written), and there just isn't much point in >>> doing that with the stand alone books. YMMV > > I dunno. Rumor has it that Devera can be found in most of Steve's books, > possibly in his income tax forms as well. You could always pick his > other > books apart for evidence of her. > > > I read an interview once where Steve said Devera would be in all his books. From Raellew at aol.com Thu Jun 13 08:59:10 2002 From: Raellew at aol.com (Raellew at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:59:10 EDT Subject: Traffic Message-ID: <4c.cd2e5d3.2a3a1b4e@aol.com> In a message dated 6/13/02, Gaertk at aol.com writes: >Which reminds me of something that's bugged me ever since I >read _Orca_: Where was Kiera when Stony died? She stirs >up trouble, chats with him, *hurries* to the blue cottage, >and arrives almost exactly a *day* after he dies. I always thought she was in Adrilankha, but you're right. She returns to Northport late morning, talks to Stony sometime after noon, gets back to the cottage late afternoon, then Vlad claims to have killed Stony the day before, when she *was* still in Adrilankha. Huh. Rae From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Jun 13 09:14:43 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:14:43 -0400 Subject: Traffic Message-ID: <29B6C829.6BB1EC96.0296E7C9@aol.com> In a message dated Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:55:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, zizban at adelphia.net writes: > What's helped is the list being split in three. Actually, I think he's probably correct. Otherwise, we would see traffic had increased in the two new lists, while decreasing here. And we aren't seeing that - traffic has decreased, period. I'm signed up for all three lists, and I haven't had nary a message from the Group Read, and very few for the RPG. Stacy From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Jun 13 09:17:50 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:17:50 -0400 Subject: Question about "Replying" Message-ID: <153CF0F9.4CC5B9EF.0296E7C9@aol.com> This is really a question for David: Can you set up the mailing lists so that when people click on their "Reply" buttons, it goes to the dragaera at dragaera.info address, and not their address? Otherwise, people are inclined now to hit the "Reply All" button which ends up sending the message to both addresses, and people end up getting the same message twice - once through the list, and once through their own Email. Stacy From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Jun 13 09:21:19 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:21:19 -0400 Subject: Question about "Replying" In-Reply-To: <153CF0F9.4CC5B9EF.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <97AA55AA-7EE9-11D6-BC2D-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Thursday, June 13, 2002, at 12:17 PM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > This is really a question for David: > > Can you set up the mailing lists so that when people click on their > "Reply" buttons, it goes to the dragaera at dragaera.info address, and not > their address? Otherwise, people are inclined now to hit the "Reply > All" button which ends up sending the message to both addresses, and > people end up getting the same message twice - once through the list, > and once through their own Email. > > Stacy > > That's a great idea. I was wondering if it was just me :) I don't subscribe to the other two lists (yet) so I figured that was why traffic had dropped. Hmmm. Interesting. From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Jun 13 09:19:06 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:19:06 -0400 Subject: My text messages Message-ID: <2C672527.13074585.0296E7C9@aol.com> Is anyone else receiving my messages as great long lines? I'm wondering if this a problem for most of you, or just a few. I use AOL, but access it in two different ways. If I'm at home, I access it directly through AOL. If I'm anywhere else, I access it via AOL Netmail on the web. If someone can tell me what preference/option to change in AOL to stop the problem, I'd be happy to do so. :) But when I look at my own messages, they look fine to me so I didn't know it was a problem until someone mentioned it. I have no idea how to fix it. Stacy From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Jun 13 09:22:32 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:22:32 -0400 Subject: My text messages In-Reply-To: <2C672527.13074585.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thursday, June 13, 2002, at 12:19 PM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > Is anyone else receiving my messages as great long lines? I'm > wondering if this a problem for most of you, or just a few. > > I use AOL, but access it in two different ways. If I'm at home, I > access it directly through AOL. If I'm anywhere else, I access it via > AOL Netmail on the web. > > If someone can tell me what preference/option to change in AOL to stop > the problem, I'd be happy to do so. :) But when I look at my own > messages, they look fine to me so I didn't know it was a problem until > someone mentioned it. I have no idea how to fix it. > > Stacy > > I don't get them as one long line. Everything looks okay here. From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Jun 13 09:23:11 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:23:11 -0500 Subject: My text messages In-Reply-To: <2C672527.13074585.0296E7C9@aol.com> References: <2C672527.13074585.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020613162311.GC29045@infodancer.org> On Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 12:19:06PM -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > Is anyone else receiving my messages as great long lines? I'm > wondering if this a problem for most of you, or just a few. Yes. Most mail programs will wrap automatically, but it's annoying when responding. No big deal, though. And not being an AOL user I have no idea how to fix it. Sorry. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From frank at exit.com Thu Jun 13 09:27:14 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:27:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: My text messages In-Reply-To: <2C672527.13074585.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <200206131627.g5DGREBk011867@realtime.exit.com> Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > Is anyone else receiving my messages as great long lines? I'm wondering if this a problem for most of you, or just a few. I am indeed getting your messages that way. I imagine it's a problem for those of use who use strictly text-based mailers. Dunno how to fix it, sorry, but if you look for "word wrap" or something similar in your preferences that would probably be it. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Jun 13 09:47:00 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 13 Jun 2002 11:47:00 -0500 Subject: Question about "Replying" In-Reply-To: <153CF0F9.4CC5B9EF.0296E7C9@aol.com> References: <153CF0F9.4CC5B9EF.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: Starshadw at aol.com writes: > Can you set up the mailing lists so that when people click on their > "Reply" buttons, it goes to the dragaera at dragaera.info address, and > not their address? Otherwise, people are inclined now to hit the > "Reply All" button which ends up sending the message to both > addresses, and people end up getting the same message twice - once > through the list, and once through their own Email. Technically it's easy. The problem is that it throws away information that can't be recovered any other way in a relatively few circumstances. A secondary problem is that it makes it hard to reply privately, and in turn makes it easy to *accidentally* send to the list something you *intended* to send privately. See, for example, http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html I hit "Followup" and then edit out the individual addresses, myself. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Jun 13 09:32:32 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:32:32 -0400 Subject: Question about "Replying" Message-ID: <1B55E2BE.0637A8D0.0296E7C9@aol.com> In a message dated Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:21:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, zizban at adelphia.net writes: > I don't subscribe to the other two lists (yet) so I figured > that was why > traffic had dropped. Hmmm. Interesting. WHAT?!?!? You haven't even subscribed to the list you're in charge of?!?!? For shame! :) Not to mention not joining the RPG list.....I'm hurt. Stacy From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Jun 13 09:48:31 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 13 Jun 2002 11:48:31 -0500 Subject: My text messages In-Reply-To: <2C672527.13074585.0296E7C9@aol.com> References: <2C672527.13074585.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: Starshadw at aol.com writes: > Is anyone else receiving my messages as great long lines? I'm wondering if this a problem for most of you, or just a few. The message I'm replying to had one long line for each paragaph (as the quoting shows). > I use AOL, but access it in two different ways. If I'm at home, I access it directly through AOL. If I'm anywhere else, I access it via AOL Netmail on the web. > If someone can tell me what preference/option to change in AOL to stop the problem, I'd be happy to do so. :) But when I look at my own messages, they look fine to me so I didn't know it was a problem until someone mentioned it. I have no idea how to fix it. No idea how to coerce AOL, sorry; never been on it. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Jun 13 09:34:09 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:34:09 -0400 Subject: My text messages Message-ID: <57378A64.3269A1B5.0296E7C9@aol.com> In a message dated Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:28:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, frank at exit.com writes: > Dunno how to fix it, sorry, but if you look for "word wrap" > or something > similar in your preferences that would probably be it. I already tried that and couldn't find anything. Maybe I'll check again. Stacy From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Jun 13 09:43:59 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:43:59 -0400 Subject: Question about "Replying" In-Reply-To: <1B55E2BE.0637A8D0.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thursday, June 13, 2002, at 12:32 PM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:21:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > zizban at adelphia.net writes: > >> I don't subscribe to the other two lists (yet) so I figured >> that was why >> traffic had dropped. Hmmm. Interesting. > > WHAT?!?!? You haven't even subscribed to the list you're in charge > of?!?!? For shame! :) Not to mention not joining the RPG list.....I'm > hurt. > > Stacy > Don't blow fuses. I was busy with college. I'm signed up for both now:) From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Jun 13 09:44:56 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:44:56 -0400 Subject: Question about "Replying" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thursday, June 13, 2002, at 12:47 PM, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Chris Turkel writes: > >> On Thursday, June 13, 2002, at 12:17 PM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >> >>> This is really a question for David: >>> >>> Can you set up the mailing lists so that when people click on their >>> "Reply" buttons, it goes to the dragaera at dragaera.info address, and >>> not their address? Otherwise, people are inclined now to hit the >>> "Reply All" button which ends up sending the message to both >>> addresses, and people end up getting the same message twice - once >>> through the list, and once through their own Email. >>> >>> Stacy >>> >>> >> That's a great idea. I was wondering if it was just me :) >> >> I don't subscribe to the other two lists (yet) so I figured that was >> why traffic had dropped. Hmmm. Interesting. > > You really should get on the readalong list, since you're in charge of > it. > -- > David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test > John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net > Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ > New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info > > I was away with college business. Sorry :) From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Jun 13 09:54:52 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:54:52 -0400 Subject: Question about "Replying" Message-ID: <0B58F404.1992E79E.0296E7C9@aol.com> In a message dated Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:44:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, zizban at adelphia.net writes: > Don't blow fuses. I was busy with college. I'm signed up > for both now:) I was teasing. :) Stacy From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Jun 13 09:58:28 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:58:28 -0400 Subject: Question about "Replying" Message-ID: <174A2A00.32174BEA.0296E7C9@aol.com> In a message dated Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:34:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dd-b at dd-b.net writes: > I hit "Followup" and then edit out the individual > addresses, myself. That's what I've been doing, but quite a few people forget to do this, and so I'm getting at least 60-75% of the messages twice. :) I love lots of messages, but I don't like duplicated messages - and I don't like to just assume it's a duplcation and delete it without opening because sometimes you reply to the same subject more than once, so I always have to open every message. Another thing that's interesting is I find I'm often getting replies before I get the original message. :) Stacy From rachael at daedala.net Thu Jun 13 10:30:07 2002 From: rachael at daedala.net (Rachael Lininger) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:30:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Question about "Replying" In-Reply-To: <174A2A00.32174BEA.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: On Jun 13, Starshadw at aol.com said: >In a message dated Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:34:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dd-b at dd-b.net writes: > >> I hit "Followup" and then edit out the individual >> addresses, myself. > >That's what I've been doing, but quite a few people forget to do this, >and so I'm getting at least 60-75% of the messages twice. :) I love >lots of messages, but I don't like duplicated messages - and I don't >like to just assume it's a duplcation and delete it without opening >because sometimes you reply to the same subject more than once, so I >always have to open every message. > >Another thing that's interesting is I find I'm often getting replies >before I get the original message. :) This is a religious issue; people have been arguing with David on this for _years._ But he is very strong in the Force (ie stubborn); and besides, he owns and runs the server. Just so you know what you're up against... Rachael -- Rachael From the Dilbert Newsletter: Lininger "You should talk to her. rachael@ She is a minefield of information." daedala.net From dragaera at juima.org Thu Jun 13 10:30:07 2002 From: dragaera at juima.org (Sander) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:30:07 +0200 Subject: Question about "Replying" References: <174A2A00.32174BEA.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D08D69F.4020502@juima.org> Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:34:15 PM Eastern Daylight > Time, dd-b at dd-b.net writes: > >> I hit "Followup" and then edit out the individual addresses, >> myself. > > That's what I've been doing, but quite a few people forget to do > this, and so I'm getting at least 60-75% of the messages twice. :) It's possible to set the Reply-To: address yourself. I have no idea how AOL handles this, but I assume you can create several 'profiles' or 'identities' or whatever, and set individual options for these. If so, create one for the list and give that a default Reply-To: address. May you always find shade and water, Sander From tyan at twcny.rr.com Thu Jun 13 10:51:21 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:51:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Traffic In-Reply-To: <694E672C.68E152DD.00048EA6@aol.com> (Gaertk@aol.com) References: <694E672C.68E152DD.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <200206131751.g5DHpLFr000393@localhost.twcny.rr.com> [sorry KG, I sent the previous to only you.] Gaertk at aol.com wrote on Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:42:25 > List volume is down from over 100 messages a day to a dozen > or so the past couple days, and at the time I'm writing > this, the last two messages are from me, and those are over > 12 hours old. I'm not surprised. When the high volume surprised me, I guessed that the traffic would probably shortly drop. I now expect this list to be bursty, with a predictable spike at new releases, plus spikes at other less well-defined times. > I guess the initial spike was from a ton of people finding > out about a new list where the Author actually *answers* > *questions* and hurried over to learn the answers to life, > the universe, and how to make klava. After getting their > answers, they're now busy catching up on all the stuff they > were supposed to be doing last week. I hope that's it, and not that the administrivia discussions have inhibited other posts. - tky From tyan at twcny.rr.com Thu Jun 13 10:56:34 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:56:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Spoiler protection In-Reply-To: <157fgug2pkvkmaer6fmsbvf00oi1tn73s7@4ax.com> (message from Richard Suitor on Wed, 12 Jun 2002 15:18:48 -0400) References: <157fgug2pkvkmaer6fmsbvf00oi1tn73s7@4ax.com> Message-ID: <200206131756.g5DHuYEp000396@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Richard Suitor wrote on Wed, 12 Jun 2002 15:18:48 > Personally, for an author whom I read because I like the way he writes > and like to be in the worlds he creates, I think spoilers of little > relevance. Yup, people vary wildly on how they feel about spoilers. I now often avoid reading blurbs on the book jackets. Surprisingly, attitudes don't seem tightly correlated with whether one rereads books. I like to reread books, and while it is true that I have been "spoiled" for the rereads, I still like to be unspoiled for my first pass, which is generally the only reliable time I can count on being maximally unspoiled. (But not always. Some books I've read so fast or made so little impression the first time, when I come back to them, it's almost as if I'm reading them the first time.) I guess roughly 1/5 to 1/2 of the books I read a year are rereads. > They will be an annoyance to Steve -- I would think that > in this group that would be a major inducement not to use them. But > others may have different views. Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying here. Please explain? - tky From tyan at twcny.rr.com Thu Jun 13 11:01:50 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:01:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Question about "Replying" In-Reply-To: <153CF0F9.4CC5B9EF.0296E7C9@aol.com> (Starshadw@aol.com) References: <153CF0F9.4CC5B9EF.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <200206131801.g5DI1oIL000399@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Starshadw at aol.com wrote on Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:17:50 > > Can you set up the mailing lists so that when people click on their > "Reply" buttons, it goes to the dragaera at dragaera.info address, and > not their address? Otherwise, people are inclined now to hit the > "Reply All" button which ends up sending the message to both > addresses, and people end up getting the same message twice - once > through the list, and once through their own Email. Heh. Or, in my case, I'm hardwired to hit "Reply to only sender" by default, so probably almost everyone I've followed up to has at one time another received a solo e-mail message first. I think I'm soon going to make replies to Dragaera messages go back to the list by default by either switching to a different mail program (gnus) or mangling the mail headers I receive.... - tky From tyan at twcny.rr.com Thu Jun 13 11:11:47 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:11:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Spoiler protection (was: META: readalong list rules) In-Reply-To: <20020612151338.GA25666@infodancer.org> (message from Matthew Hunter on Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:13:38 -0500) References: <20020612151338.GA25666@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <200206131811.g5DIBlKP000402@localhost.twcny.rr.com> The rasfwr-j FAQ was praised by Matthew Hunter > Additionally, do not use a title that is, itself, a spoiler. > For instance, if it turns out that Tam al'Thor killed > Asmodean, then a subject of: > > WH: Tam killed Asmodean!! (Spoilers) > > Doesn't really help us. Amen. > It is also the opinion of this FAQ writer that anyone > who braves a post marked "Spoilers!" in the header > gets exactly what he or she deserves, whether through > a broken newsreader failing to implement a page > break, or through a post with insufficient whitespace > for his screen settings. Hell no. It is very easy to lose track of the Subject, and hence easy to overlook a spoiler warning in the Subject line. In practice, generous (but not excessive) spoiler space is needed. - tky P.S. I think the gnus mail reader lets you choose whether or not to consolidate multiple blank lines into just one blank line and whether or not to hide quoted text. Those are cool options, and wisely, by default, both are off. From terrick at cox.net Thu Jun 13 11:21:14 2002 From: terrick at cox.net (ryan) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:21:14 -0500 Subject: Spoiler protection (was: META: readalong list rules) In-Reply-To: <200206131811.g5DIBlKP000402@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <00bf01c21307$1d587370$0364a8c0@darwin> >> It is also the opinion of this FAQ writer that anyone >> who braves a post marked "Spoilers!" in the header >> gets exactly what he or she deserves, whether through >> a broken newsreader failing to implement a page >> break, or through a post with insufficient whitespace >> for his screen settings. >Hell no. It is very easy to lose track of the Subject, and hence easy >to overlook a spoiler warning in the Subject line. In practice, >generous (but not excessive) spoiler space is needed. I disagree if you have spoiler in the subject line then you can filter those from the list with spoiler into another folder for such items, and even go so far as to instantly trash them if your not interested in reading such content. -- Ryan From tyan at twcny.rr.com Thu Jun 13 11:33:30 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:33:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Readalong] Administrivia In-Reply-To: <5AF429ED.31E431D3.00048EA6@aol.com> (Gaertk@aol.com) References: <5AF429ED.31E431D3.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <200206131833.g5DIXUhg000412@localhost.twcny.rr.com> [Good questions, but I think we'll have to answer most of them by trial an error or on a book by book basis. That said, I'll give my tentative preferences.] Gaertk at aol.com wrote on Wed, 12 Jun 2002 20:58:30> > How much are we biting off at a time? I like the idea of > doing one chapter at a time so we can really delve in and > analyse the heck out of eveything, A chapter at a time sounds good to me, too. > but there's a total of > about 250 chapters (including interludes, epilogues, etc) > which at one a week would take 5 years, even at one a day > it'd take nearly a year. I think we need to resign ourselves to realizing we won't be able to do that many of these intensive discussions a year. > A whole book at a time wouldn't > allow too much depth of discussions before moving on. So > compromise with a few chapters? And how much time between > chunks? These are hard questions. Tentative idea: Schedule the start of a discussion at least one month into the future, to give people who want to a chance to make a first pass through it before going into deep discussion. Also, I think many of us will want some breathing room between discussions. Then, aim to release chapters over the course of either 34 or 17 days, which comes out to 2 or 1 or .5 new chapter each day. But I think this should be subject to adjustment in the middle of a discussion. > What order do we do them? Published, chronological, > alphabetical, random, Cycle? I think I'd like to do _Paths of the Dead_ as soon as possible. Besides that, I guess I don't care too much about the order. - tky From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Jun 13 11:37:38 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:37:38 -0400 Subject: Spoiler protection Message-ID: <3A53F6B3.5A304621.0296E7C9@aol.com> In a message dated Thu, 13 Jun 2002 2:28:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, terrick at cox.net writes: > >> It is also the opinion of this FAQ writer that anyone > >> who braves a post marked "Spoilers!" in the header > >> gets exactly what he or she deserves, > > I disagree if you have spoiler in the subject line then you can filter > those from the list with spoiler into another folder for such items, and > even go so far as to instantly trash them if your not > interested in > reading such content. I have to agree with the two sentiments above. Not only that, but what exactly are we going to be discussing on a group read list except the books, which means that -every- -single- -post- will probably contain spoilers. Frankly, having to type "Spoiler" into the subject line is a waste of character space. Here on the general list is a different story. I think we'd be better off putting the title or an abbreviation of the title onto the subject line. That way, if someone hasn't read "Orca" then they know to simply delete those messages without opening them and reading them. Stacy From tyan at twcny.rr.com Thu Jun 13 11:53:48 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:53:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: My text messages In-Reply-To: <2C672527.13074585.0296E7C9@aol.com> (Starshadw@aol.com) References: <2C672527.13074585.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <200206131853.g5DIrmSU000468@localhost.twcny.rr.com> [resend] Starshadw at aol.com wrote on Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:19:06 > Is anyone else receiving my messages as great long lines? I'm > wondering if this a problem for most of you, or just a few. -snip- I do. > If someone can tell me what preference/option to change in AOL to > stop the problem, I'd be happy to do so. :) But when I look at my > own messages, they look fine to me so I didn't know it was a problem > until someone mentioned it. I have no idea how to fix it. There might not be a good a solution in AOL, in which case don't worry about it too much. My feeling is that if one makes a good faith effort to meet the style guidelines, then go ahead and post. - tky From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Jun 13 12:27:17 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 13 Jun 2002 14:27:17 -0500 Subject: Question about "Replying" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chris Turkel writes: > On Thursday, June 13, 2002, at 12:32 PM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:21:38 PM Eastern Daylight > > Time, zizban at adelphia.net writes: > > > >> I don't subscribe to the other two lists (yet) so I figured > >> that was why > >> traffic had dropped. Hmmm. Interesting. > > > > WHAT?!?!? You haven't even subscribed to the list you're in charge > > of?!?!? For shame! :) Not to mention not joining the RPG > > list.....I'm hurt. > Don't blow fuses. I was busy with college. I'm signed up for both now:) What, you think having a *life* is somehow an excuse around here? Oh. Um, okay, fine then. :-) -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Jun 13 12:29:50 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 13 Jun 2002 14:29:50 -0500 Subject: Question about "Replying" In-Reply-To: <174A2A00.32174BEA.0296E7C9@aol.com> References: <174A2A00.32174BEA.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: Starshadw at aol.com writes: > In a message dated Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:34:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dd-b at dd-b.net writes: > > > I hit "Followup" and then edit out the individual > > addresses, myself. > > That's what I've been doing, but quite a few people forget to do this, and so I'm getting at least 60-75% of the messages twice. :) I love lots of messages, but I don't like duplicated messages - and I don't like to just assume it's a duplcation and delete it without opening because sometimes you reply to the same subject more than once, so I always have to open every message. > > Another thing that's interesting is I find I'm often getting replies before I get the original message. :) Since the direct reply will go from the sender's mail server to your mail server, whereas a message in the list has to go through my mail server and my *list* mail server before it reaches your mail server, and since my list mail server is almost by definition somewhat busy when a message in one of the lists has just come through, I'm not *that* surprised. Plus it can happen just at random -- if one server fails to connect to another server for whatever reason, it sets a retry time and forgets about it for a while, so two messages taking different paths can very easily come out in either order. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Jun 13 14:08:00 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:08:00 -0700 Subject: Question about "Replying" In-Reply-To: <153CF0F9.4CC5B9EF.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020613140646.00a2ec60@pop3.lvcm.com> At 12:17 PM 6/13/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >This is really a question for David: > >Can you set up the mailing lists so that when people click on their >"Reply" buttons, it goes to the dragaera at dragaera.info address, and not >their address? Otherwise, people are inclined now to hit the "Reply All" >button which ends up sending the message to both addresses, and people end >up getting the same message twice - once through the list, and once >through their own Email. Tee hee. Here we go. :-) (For the record, I'm inclined to your side of that religious argument, but those who have actually studied the appropriate kabala have pretty much convinced me I'm a heretic.) From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Jun 13 14:08:40 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:08:40 -0700 Subject: My text messages In-Reply-To: <2C672527.13074585.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020613140822.00a8aec0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 12:19 PM 6/13/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >Is anyone else receiving my messages as great long lines? I'm wondering >if this a problem for most of you, or just a few. Your messages are working fine for me. From akomins at midway.uchicago.edu Thu Jun 13 14:16:05 2002 From: akomins at midway.uchicago.edu (Arin Komins) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 16:16:05 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Readalong-ing again (was: META) In-Reply-To: <45B1EF8F.5198E3CD.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Jun 2002 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: :Subject: Re: Readalong-ing again (was: META) : [snip] :Hmm. Now that I think about it, I wouldn't mind doing the :Liavek stories on the readalong list, including the ones :not written by Brust. Would that be too far off charter? The only problem I could envision with doing the Liavek stories, is that they really need to be read in the context of the Liavek universe. ...so doing those as just Steve's bit would be a bit confusing (as would any shared world, imho.) Also -- they are long OOP, so might be difficult to acquire for those folks who don't already have them ;-) BTW, I noticed in the latest Locus that the Book of Athyra (omnibus volume) is coming out soon. Thanks, Arin -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Arin Komins akomins at uchicago.edu Manager of Web Systems Architecture University of Chicago/NSIT tel: (773)834-4087 1155 E. 60th St. #302B Chicago, IL 60637 fax: (773)702-0559 ------------------------------------------------------------------ From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Jun 13 14:18:57 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 17:18:57 -0400 Subject: Readalong-ing again (was: META) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2C56407A-7F13-11D6-8B66-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Thursday, June 13, 2002, at 05:16 PM, Arin Komins wrote: > On Wed, 12 Jun 2002 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > :Subject: Re: Readalong-ing again (was: META) > : > > [snip] > > :Hmm. Now that I think about it, I wouldn't mind doing the > :Liavek stories on the readalong list, including the ones > :not written by Brust. Would that be too far off charter? > > The only problem I could envision with doing the Liavek stories, is that > they really need to be read in the context of the Liavek universe. > ...so doing those as just Steve's bit would be a bit confusing > (as would any shared world, imho.) > > Also -- they are long OOP, so might be difficult to acquire for those > folks who don't already have them ;-) > > BTW, I noticed in the latest Locus that the Book of Athyra (omnibus > volume) is coming out soon. > > Thanks, > > Arin > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Arin Komins akomins at uchicago.edu > Manager of Web Systems Architecture > University of Chicago/NSIT tel: (773)834-4087 > 1155 E. 60th St. #302B Chicago, IL 60637 fax: (773)702-0559 > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Let's see... as read along guru I say...Uh....I think the Liavek stories would be okay but we should stick to just Brust stories. From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Jun 13 14:32:13 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 16:32:13 -0500 Subject: Question about "Replying" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020613140646.00a2ec60@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <153CF0F9.4CC5B9EF.0296E7C9@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020613140646.00a2ec60@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <20020613213213.GF29045@infodancer.org> On Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 02:08:00PM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: > At 12:17 PM 6/13/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > >This is really a question for David: > >Can you set up the mailing lists so that when people click on their > >"Reply" buttons, it goes to the dragaera at dragaera.info address, and not > >their address? Otherwise, people are inclined now to hit the "Reply All" > >button which ends up sending the message to both addresses, and people end > >up getting the same message twice - once through the list, and once > >through their own Email. > Tee hee. Here we go. :-) > (For the record, I'm inclined to your side of that religious argument, but > those who have actually studied the appropriate kabala have pretty much > convinced me I'm a heretic.) >From an interface perspective I prefer the former; but from a technical perspective I prefer the latter. What I REALLY want is "reply to list", which mutt provides, if you take the time to specify the posting address of every list to which you subscribe. For various reasons[1] I find this insufficient. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) 1: image:~> wc -l .mailfilter 802 .mailfilter From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Jun 13 14:59:15 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:59:15 -0700 Subject: Readalong-ing again (was: META) In-Reply-To: References: <45B1EF8F.5198E3CD.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020613145843.00a7d990@pop3.lvcm.com> At 04:16 PM 6/13/2002 -0500, Arin Komins wrote: >BTW, I noticed in the latest Locus that the Book of Athyra (omnibus >volume) is coming out soon. No shit? Cool! From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Jun 13 15:39:16 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 18:39:16 EDT Subject: Question about "Replying" Message-ID: <96.27cad841.2a3a7914@aol.com> (For the record, I'm inclined to your side of that religious argument, but those who have actually studied the appropriate kabala have pretty much convinced me I'm a heretic.) Hah! I was about to call *them* heretics! Which just goes to show, everything is relative. Heh... Stacy From tyan at twcny.rr.com Thu Jun 13 15:43:19 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 18:43:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: How did you discover ... ? Message-ID: <200206132243.g5DMhJw3000718@localhost.twcny.rr.com> I'm curious. How did you discover Steve's books, and how did you learn of this mailing list? I learned of this mailing list from DDB's announcement on RASF*. I first discovered Steve's books one glorious summer many years ago when my family was house sitting for a friend. They had a ton of books, so I happily 2 to 3 books a day. That was mucho fun. One of the books was _To Reign in Hell_, which I think I found somewhat puzzling at the time. Anyway, for whatever reason, I didn't seek out Steve's books and, to some extent, forgot he was the author of TRiH. So more recently I re-discovered his books because there were lots of discussions on RASFW, and because Jo Walton had a rave about him at her website: It looked like I was missing out a lot of the fun. So then I made up for lost time: all the pre-Issola Vlad books, _The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars_, _Issola_, the Khaavren romances, _Brokedown Palace_, _Agyar_, _Cowboy Feng's Space Bar and Grille_, and all 5 Liavek books. Hm, I know I reread TRiH somewhere in there; looks like I forgot to record it in my minimalist booklog. Damn! - tky From pddb at demesne.com Thu Jun 13 16:01:33 2002 From: pddb at demesne.com (pddb at demesne.com) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 18:01:33 -0500 Subject: How did you discover ... ? In-Reply-To: <200206132243.g5DMhJw3000718@localhost.twcny.rr.com>; from tyan@twcny.rr.com on Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 06:43:19PM -0400 References: <200206132243.g5DMhJw3000718@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <20020613180133.B3422@gw.dd-b.net> On Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 06:43:19PM -0400, Thomas Yan wrote: > I'm curious. How did you discover Steve's books, and how did you > learn of this mailing list? > > I learned of this mailing list from DDB's announcement on RASF*. I learned of it because DD-B lives in my basement. Well, our basement. I just couldn't resist that formulation. [snip] > So then I made up for lost time: all the pre-Issola Vlad books, _The > Sun, the Moon, and the Stars_, _Issola_, the Khaavren romances, > _Brokedown Palace_, _Agyar_, _Cowboy Feng's Space Bar and Grille_, and > all 5 Liavek books. Lucky person. I had to read them one by one by one as they were finished. Only in retrospect could I wallow, and in rereading, which is a lot of fun but not the same as discovery. I knew Steve before he had written any books, but I must admit it was certainly great fun once he started. > Hm, I know I reread TRiH somewhere in there; looks like I forgot to > record it in my minimalist booklog. Damn! I hate it when that happens. (Hello, Thomas! I just recently played that tape of THE LADY'S NOT FOR BURNING you found me for a friend. Thank you again.) -- Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet (pddb at demesne.com) "I will open my heart to a blank page and interview the witnesses." John M. Ford, "Shared World" From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Jun 13 16:20:18 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 13 Jun 2002 18:20:18 -0500 Subject: Question about "Replying" In-Reply-To: <20020613213213.GF29045@infodancer.org> References: <153CF0F9.4CC5B9EF.0296E7C9@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020613140646.00a2ec60@pop3.lvcm.com> <20020613213213.GF29045@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Matthew Hunter writes: > On Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 02:08:00PM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: > > At 12:17 PM 6/13/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > > >This is really a question for David: > > >Can you set up the mailing lists so that when people click on their > > >"Reply" buttons, it goes to the dragaera at dragaera.info address, and not > > >their address? Otherwise, people are inclined now to hit the "Reply All" > > >button which ends up sending the message to both addresses, and people end > > >up getting the same message twice - once through the list, and once > > >through their own Email. > > Tee hee. Here we go. :-) > > (For the record, I'm inclined to your side of that religious argument, but > > those who have actually studied the appropriate kabala have pretty much > > convinced me I'm a heretic.) > > >From an interface perspective I prefer the former; but from a > technical perspective I prefer the latter. > > What I REALLY want is "reply to list", which mutt provides, if > you take the time to specify the posting address of every list to > which you subscribe. For various reasons[1] I find this > insufficient. Mutt won't recognize the "List-post:" header? (RFC 2369) -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Jun 13 16:23:57 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 13 Jun 2002 18:23:57 -0500 Subject: How did you discover ... ? In-Reply-To: <200206132243.g5DMhJw3000718@localhost.twcny.rr.com> References: <200206132243.g5DMhJw3000718@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) writes: > I'm curious. How did you discover Steve's books, and how did you > learn of this mailing list? > > I learned of this mailing list from DDB's announcement on RASF*. I posted to rec.arts.sf.written and .fandom (as it looks like you know, but I'm making it clear for others). I posted to the Minnesota Science Fiction Society's "natter" mailing list. And I've listed it in my sig line. I wrote a couple of web-site owners to say we were linking to them and asked if they'd consider a return link, and mentioned the list. And I believe that's all I did to promote this. I do know that the announcement got copied onto a few other mailing lists by other people. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Jun 13 16:24:54 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 18:24:54 -0500 Subject: Question about "Replying" In-Reply-To: References: <153CF0F9.4CC5B9EF.0296E7C9@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020613140646.00a2ec60@pop3.lvcm.com> <20020613213213.GF29045@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20020613232454.GA13314@infodancer.org> On Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 06:20:18PM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Matthew Hunter writes: > > What I REALLY want is "reply to list", which mutt provides, if > > you take the time to specify the posting address of every list to > > which you subscribe. For various reasons[1] I find this > > insufficient. > Mutt won't recognize the "List-post:" header? (RFC 2369) It doesn't appear to by default. Of course, I haven't checked the documentation in depth for some time. It may be time to re-examine it. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From tyan at twcny.rr.com Thu Jun 13 16:45:55 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:45:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: *Readalong* Spoiler protection [was: Spoiler protection] In-Reply-To: <3A53F6B3.5A304621.0296E7C9@aol.com> (Starshadw@aol.com) References: <3A53F6B3.5A304621.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <200206132345.g5DNjtOL000799@localhost.twcny.rr.com> [Since "readalong" wasn't in the Subject, I assumed we were talking about spoiler protection on this list. I've put "readalong" (back?) into the Subject.] Starshadw at aol.com wrote on Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:37:38 > terrick at cox.net writes: > > > >> It is also the opinion of this FAQ writer that anyone > > >> who braves a post marked "Spoilers!" in the header > > >> gets exactly what he or she deserves, > > I [agree:] > > > > if you have spoiler in the subject line then you can filter > > those from the list with spoiler into another folder for such items, and > > even go so far as to instantly trash them if your not > > interested in > > reading such content. > > I have to agree with the two sentiments above. Not only that, but > what exactly are we going to be discussing on a group read list > except the books, which means that -every- -single- -post- will > probably contain spoilers. Frankly, having to type "Spoiler" into > the subject line is a waste of character space. Here on the general > list is a different story. Er, aren't you disagreeing with the idea of putting "Spoiler" in the subject line, which was one of the sentiments above? I definitely agree that if we were discussing Teckla on the readalong list, then having to put spoiler space for Teckla would be silly, as would putting "Spoiler" in the subject. But to reiterate, I would still want to see labeled spoiler space for other books, even if they are broad spectrum. In fact, I expect to often resort to labels like: + "Spoilers for all Vlad books to date" + "Pub-o spoilers thru Phoenix" (What's a good abbreviation for "publication order?) + "Ser-o spoilers thru Phoenix" (What's a good abbreviation for "series order?) > I think we'd be better off putting the title or an abbreviation of > the title onto the subject line. That way, if someone hasn't read > "Orca" then they know to simply delete those messages without > opening them and reading them. Assuming you're talking about the readalong list, I think it's a waste of space to include the title of the readalong book in the Subject. - tky From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Jun 13 16:48:30 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:48:30 EDT Subject: *Readalong* Spoiler protection [was: Spoiler protection] Message-ID: <1e.2994171b.2a3a894e@aol.com> In a message dated 6/13/2002 5:44:10 PM Mountain Daylight Time, tyan at twcny.rr.com writes: > Assuming you're talking about the readalong list, I think it's a waste > of space to include the title of the readalong book in the Subject. I actually do as well, but at least if the book title is there, then people with mail readers (if I understand them correctly) would then have something to use to filter with - at least until we find a means of posting what book is being read when (need a webpage or maybe just use the Yahoo calendar feature to create a calendar). That's the only reason I suggested it. Stacy From dragaera at juima.org Thu Jun 13 16:54:11 2002 From: dragaera at juima.org (Sander) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 01:54:11 +0200 Subject: How did you discover ... ? References: <200206132243.g5DMhJw3000718@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <3D0930A3.3040509@juima.org> Thomas Yan wrote: > I'm curious. How did you discover Steve's books, and how did you > learn of this mailing list? Robin Hobb recommended them to me in response to a question about _vivid_ fantasy where forests weren't just green blothes on a map copy/pasted from a standard template but where the author actually took time to create his own world. (She actually regularly recommends Steve's books, but most of what she says when she does that we're not supposed to talk about where Steve can hear, so I'll wisely shut up now.) :D Uhm, anyhoo, that made me finally look up the books. I discovered that I had long ago read one of the Taltos books, but that was in my "going through all science fiction and fantasy authors in the library in alphabetical order" phase, so I sadly didn't even recall there was something to follow up on. I read Jhereg, and I read Taltos, and Dragon, and at that point I liked the books but thought they were all somewhat similar and would probably get boring if I read many more. *hides in shame* And then I picked up Athyra at a book-fair-event-thingumawhopper and discovered I'd been somewhat hasty in judging these books, and rushed through all other Taltos books I could get my hands on (still looking for Phoenix) and went on to the Khaavren Romances and... Somewhere around then I discovered Steve's weblog and got into the habit of checking back every few days. Then not too long ago I saw the list mentioned on the site and thought that since I already didn't have any time anyway, I might as well add another mailinglist, for how busy could it get? :) May you always find shade and water, Sander From tyan at twcny.rr.com Thu Jun 13 17:07:06 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:07:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: How did you discover ... ? In-Reply-To: <20020613180133.B3422@gw.dd-b.net> (pddb@demesne.com) References: <200206132243.g5DMhJw3000718@localhost.twcny.rr.com> <20020613180133.B3422@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <200206140007.g5E076uQ000815@localhost.twcny.rr.com> pddb at demesne.com wrote on Thu, 13 Jun 2002 18:01:33 > On Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 06:43:19PM -0400, Thomas Yan wrote: -snip- > > Hm, I know I reread TRiH somewhere in there; looks like I forgot to > > record it in my minimalist booklog. Damn! > > I hate it when that happens. Do you also keep a booklog? What do you put in it, and is it electronic? I put very little in mine, which is plain ASCII: For each month, I (try to) list the author and title of each book that I read. I figure that anything more, and it would feel like to much work and I'd give it up. I also do the same thing for movies, but I also try to record TV vs theater vs DVD, and I use the director in place of the author, even though that doesn't feel quite right to me. Hm. I haven't been to a play in the longest time. But when I do, I'll probably record those in my movie log. > (Hello, Thomas! I just recently played that tape of THE LADY'S NOT > FOR BURNING you found me for a friend. Thank you again.) You're welcome! :) - tky From lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com Thu Jun 13 17:09:33 2002 From: lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com (Lowki Liesmith) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:09:33 -0400 Subject: How did you discover ... ? Message-ID: well a friend of mine reads about 10 times more than i do and i was checking out his vast libraryof fantacy and si-fi, amongst those books were Khaavren romances, all of the vlad books,to reign in hell, gypsy and cow boy fengs...I asked him to recomend a book and he said the book of Jheregwas a good one to start with. Now I am obsessed with the novels of brust and that just lead me to the dream cafe (brust's home page(as if you did not know)) and that lead me to this list... >From: David Dyer-Bennet >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: How did you discover ... ? >Date: 13 Jun 2002 18:23:57 -0500 > >tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) writes: > > > I'm curious. How did you discover Steve's books, and how did you > > learn of this mailing list? > > > > I learned of this mailing list from DDB's announcement on RASF*. > >I posted to rec.arts.sf.written and .fandom (as it looks like you >know, but I'm making it clear for others). I posted to the Minnesota >Science Fiction Society's "natter" mailing list. And I've listed it >in my sig line. I wrote a couple of web-site owners to say we were >linking to them and asked if they'd consider a return link, and >mentioned the list. And I believe that's all I did to promote this. > >I do know that the announcement got copied onto a few other mailing >lists by other people. >-- >David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test > John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net > Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ > New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Jun 13 17:10:12 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 17:10:12 -0700 Subject: How did you discover ... ? In-Reply-To: <3D0930A3.3040509@juima.org> References: <200206132243.g5DMhJw3000718@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020613170912.00a66430@pop3.lvcm.com> At 01:54 AM 6/14/2002 +0200, Sander wrote: >Thomas Yan wrote: >>I'm curious. How did you discover Steve's books, and how did you >>learn of this mailing list? > >Robin Hobb recommended them to me What a sweetie. From lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com Thu Jun 13 17:12:24 2002 From: lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com (Lowki Liesmith) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:12:24 -0400 Subject: How did you discover ... ? Message-ID: what strikes me as odd is that someone would want to get rid of Athyra at the book fair. >From: Sander >Reply-To: dragaera at dragaera.info >To: Dragaera list >Subject: Re: How did you discover ... ? >Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 01:54:11 +0200 > >Thomas Yan wrote: >>I'm curious. How did you discover Steve's books, and how did you >>learn of this mailing list? > >Robin Hobb recommended them to me in response to a question about >_vivid_ fantasy where forests weren't just green blothes on a map >copy/pasted from a standard template but where the author actually took >time to create his own world. (She actually regularly recommends Steve's >books, but most of what she says when she does that we're not supposed >to talk about where Steve can hear, so I'll wisely shut up now.) :D >Uhm, anyhoo, that made me finally look up the books. I discovered that I >had long ago read one of the Taltos books, but that was in my "going >through all science fiction and fantasy authors in the library in >alphabetical order" phase, so I sadly didn't even recall there was >something to follow up on. >I read Jhereg, and I read Taltos, and Dragon, and at that point I liked >the books but thought they were all somewhat similar and would probably >get boring if I read many more. *hides in shame* And then I picked up >Athyra at a book-fair-event-thingumawhopper and discovered I'd been >somewhat hasty in judging these books, and rushed through all other >Taltos books I could get my hands on (still looking for Phoenix) and >went on to the Khaavren Romances and... >Somewhere around then I discovered Steve's weblog and got into the habit >of checking back every few days. Then not too long ago I saw the list >mentioned on the site and thought that since I already didn't have any >time anyway, I might as well add another mailinglist, for how busy could >it get? :) > >May you always find shade and water, >Sander > _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From rachael at daedala.net Thu Jun 13 17:55:42 2002 From: rachael at daedala.net (Rachael Lininger) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:55:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Question about "Replying" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jun 13, David Dyer-Bennet said: >Matthew Hunter writes: > >> >From an interface perspective I prefer the former; but from a >> technical perspective I prefer the latter. >> >> What I REALLY want is "reply to list", which mutt provides, if >> you take the time to specify the posting address of every list to >> which you subscribe. For various reasons[1] I find this >> insufficient. > >Mutt won't recognize the "List-post:" header? (RFC 2369) It's expecting that header per RFC 1149: http://www.blug.linux.no/rfc1149/ -- Rachael From the Dilbert Newsletter: Lininger "You should talk to her. rachael@ She is a minefield of information." daedala.net From Gaertk at aol.com Thu Jun 13 17:58:58 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:58:58 -0400 Subject: How did you discover ... ? Message-ID: <34CD1DA3.5E017A51.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Thu, 13 Jun 2002 ?6:42:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) writes: > I'm curious. ?How did you discover Steve's books, and how > did you learn of this mailing list? I used to hang out on rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan, where I eventually heard of Brust (and Pratchett), and then I started hanging out on rec.arts.sf.written to discuss them (where I discovered tons of other authors). I learned of this list from DDB's post to rasfw (I wouldn't have noticed Brust's mention on his website since I always go straight to the weblog). Interestingly enough, about an hour or so before Thomas wrote his post, I posted about this list to the Brust Yahoo group, in the hopes of alerting Damien and Mark (and anyone else there interested). --KG From Gaertk at aol.com Thu Jun 13 18:05:22 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:05:22 -0400 Subject: [readalong] What first? Message-ID: <6679EF63.26094911.00048EA6@aol.com> Since some people wanted notifications on this list of when we start readalongs, should we then discus what to read next here also? If so, I'd like to start off by suggesting using my chronological order (posted earlier), which means starting with _The Phoenix Guards_. And if we handle things right, we should be able to schedule it so we're ending our discussion of _Five Hundred Years After_ when _Paths of the Dead_ show up. --KG From frank at exit.com Thu Jun 13 18:07:05 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 18:07:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How did you discover ... ? In-Reply-To: <34CD1DA3.5E017A51.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <200206140107.g5E175lU096629@realtime.exit.com> In a message dated Thu, 13 Jun 2002 ?6:42:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) writes: > I'm curious. ?How did you discover Steve's books, and how > did you learn of this mailing list? I discovered Steve's novels long enough ago that I don't really remember how. I was all of 23 at the time, and I assume I picked up a copy of Jhereg from the local Waldenbooks in Nacogdoches, TX, cesspit of the universe. To know that much I had to check the copyright date in that copy of Jhereg; it was the second printing, in 1983. At that point, I didn't yet know about the ARPAnet (which is what it _was_ then) and Usenet was just getting off the ground itself. I discovered both about a year later. I liked Jhereg, bought Yendi when it came out and the rest is history. I was a starving student in those days, but now I can actually afford to buy the first-run hardbacks! :-) I found out about this mailing list from the reference on Steve's site, kind of by accident. Not that I needed any more email (I probably receive between 200 and 300 messages a day, at least), but at least it's mostly interesting. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From pendragon at vaxer.net Thu Jun 13 18:17:42 2002 From: pendragon at vaxer.net (A Knight in White Satin) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:17:42 -0400 Subject: How did you discover ... ? In-Reply-To: <200206132243.g5DMhJw3000718@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20020613211247.00b8d0f8@maple.vaxer.net> At 06:43 PM 6/13/2002, you wrote: >I'm curious. How did you discover Steve's books, and how did you >learn of this mailing list? Owner of my comic/book store way back when (Bill Hatfield, Novel Ideas, Gainesville, FL. Has since been driven out of business by the city over some truly idiotic obscenity charges. But I digress.) had two books with a "money-back if you don't like it" guarantee. _Taltos_ was one, _Pawn of Prophecy_ (Eddings) was the other. Not too long ago, google'd for Brust, found the website, found the mailing list link. Invited myself along. Have since noticed I lent _Athyra_ out several years ago. Damnit. Pendoug -- oh, look, it still defaults to a private reply. How annoying. -- "We're at an awkward point in USian history-- it's too late to work within the system, but it's too soon to start shooting the bastards." From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Jun 13 18:17:17 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:17:17 EDT Subject: What first? Message-ID: <95.1defe132.2a3a9e1d@aol.com> LOL. We're already going to be in a heated debate on where to start, given the two camps - published and chronological. Should majority vote rule on that? My vote is published order. Stacy From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Jun 13 18:23:10 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:23:10 -0500 Subject: [readalong] What first? In-Reply-To: <6679EF63.26094911.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <6679EF63.26094911.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020614012310.GD25666@infodancer.org> On Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 09:05:22PM -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > If so, I'd like to start off by suggesting using my > chronological order (posted earlier), which means starting > with _The Phoenix Guards_. And if we handle things right, > we should be able to schedule it so we're ending our > discussion of _Five Hundred Years After_ when _Paths of the > Dead_ show up. This is a significant advantage to this proposed order. Seconded. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Jun 13 16:50:57 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:50:57 -0400 Subject: Finding out above Steve's books.... Message-ID: <67ED034A-7F28-11D6-A97B-00039386187A@adelphia.net> tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) writes: I'm curious. How did you discover Steve's books, and how did you learn of this mailing list? I was working part time in a used bookstore and was browsing the fantasy section when I came across Taltos. I started reading it and was hooked. I soon discovered there were other books in the series, so I put it aside and started again with a used copy of Jhereg and loved it. I've been addicted every since. I regularly haunt Steven's web site. I like reading his web log and I like to read his comments about his books when I am in a writing funk. It gives me a pick up. It was there I saw the link to Dragaera.info and the rest, as they, is history. From alipkin at LearnLink.Emory.Edu Thu Jun 13 18:35:18 2002 From: alipkin at LearnLink.Emory.Edu (Adam Lipkin) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:35:18 -0400 Subject: How did you discover ... ? In-Reply-To: <200206132243.g5DMhJw3000718@localhost.twcny.rr.com> References: <200206132243.g5DMhJw3000718@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: tyan at twcny.rr.com writes: >I'm curious. How did you discover Steve's books, and how did you >learn of this mailing list? I'm embarrassed to admit how I discovered his books, but I'll excuse it in advance by saying that I was young (in the seventh grade, I think): I was a huge Piers Anthony fan (or, more accurately, Xanth), and was looking for other light fantasy. And Jhereg was packaged very much as a light fantasy novel (not that the fact that he was an assassin wasn't mentioned, but the cover and back of the book made it look like it was a pretty light-hearted world). Nearly twenty years later, I've long lost any enthusiasm for Anthony, but am still enjoying Steve's books. As for the list, Laurel posted about it in her Livejournal. I'm afraid it's been years since I had the patience to sift through Usenet. --Adam Adam Lipkin Educational Analyst, Academic Technology Group alipkin at learnlink.emory.edu ___________________________________________________________ "If you don't turn your life into a story, you just become a part of someone else's story." --Terry Pratchett From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Jun 13 18:37:09 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:37:09 -0500 Subject: How did you discover ... ? In-Reply-To: <200206140107.g5E175lU096629@realtime.exit.com> References: <34CD1DA3.5E017A51.00048EA6@aol.com> <200206140107.g5E175lU096629@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <20020614013709.GE25666@infodancer.org> On Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 06:07:05PM -0700, Frank Mayhar wrote: > In a message dated Thu, 13 Jun 2002 ?6:42:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) writes: > > I'm curious. ?How did you discover Steve's books, and how > > did you learn of this mailing list? > I discovered Steve's novels long enough ago that I don't really remember > how. I was all of 23 at the time, and I assume I picked up a copy of > Jhereg from the local Waldenbooks in Nacogdoches, TX, cesspit of the > universe. To know that much I had to check the copyright date in that > copy of Jhereg; it was the second printing, in 1983. At that point, I > didn't yet know about the ARPAnet (which is what it _was_ then) and Usenet > was just getting off the ground itself. I discovered both about a year > later. I don't recall exactly how I found Brust. I remember finding, reading, and liking Jhereg at some point congruent to my presence on Fidonet. From a used bookstore at the time, being as I was poor. I liked Jhereg enough to notice Brust on a Fidonet echo and send a fan letter. If memory serves, I got back a list of other books to look for, which is why I was able to pick up Cowboy Feng's and To Reign in Hell before it was hard. I believe I found Yendi at the same used bookstore (a second trip after Jhereg), got Phoenix new, and eventually backfilled Teckla and Taltos. It made for an interesting reading order.. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From lisa at spindot.com Thu Jun 13 18:49:16 2002 From: lisa at spindot.com (Lisa Grant Coffin) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:49:16 -0400 Subject: How did you discover ... ? Message-ID: <00f701c21345$b19cce30$1401a8c0@Spencer> Steven Brust wrote: > At 01:54 AM 6/14/2002 +0200, Sander wrote: >> Thomas Yan wrote: >>> I'm curious. How did you discover Steve's books, and how did you >>> learn of this mailing list? >> >> Robin Hobb recommended them to me > > What a sweetie. ah, couldn't resist this one. in the first place, i discovered steven's books through a list online some years ago. someone, don't remember who now, wrote a list of their library and notes about the various series and authors. thought i would like the adventures of vlad, and i loved them. i think people doing these lists are really helpful for readers seeking new sff authors. i could go on here about the lack of marketing in sff, but i won't. i think i'm going to do a list of my own to help others some day soon, now that i think about it. second, i found out about robin hobb through an interview of steven's. i now have all of her books as well. *she* send me bookplates for all of my books. :) lisa grant coffin From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Jun 13 18:51:04 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:51:04 -0500 Subject: *Readalong* Spoiler protection [was: Spoiler protection] In-Reply-To: <200206132345.g5DNjtOL000799@localhost.twcny.rr.com> References: <3A53F6B3.5A304621.0296E7C9@aol.com> <200206132345.g5DNjtOL000799@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <20020614015104.GA15198@infodancer.org> On Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 07:45:55PM -0400, Thomas Yan wrote: > But to reiterate, I would still want to see labeled spoiler space for > other books, even if they are broad spectrum. In fact, I expect to > often resort to labels like: > > + "Spoilers for all Vlad books to date" > + "Pub-o spoilers thru Phoenix" > (What's a good abbreviation for "publication order?) > + "Ser-o spoilers thru Phoenix" > (What's a good abbreviation for "series order?) This is just silly. EVERY post will end up having spoiler protection in it. There is a point at which you just have to assume people have read the books in order to have a discussion about the books. All the major Dragaera works are in print to the best of my knowledge. If people want to discuss the books and can't afford to buy what's currently published all at once, they would logically join the readalong list and buy one book per month or so as that list progresses. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From monty at montykins.com Thu Jun 13 18:58:41 2002 From: monty at montykins.com (Monty Ashley) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 18:58:41 -0700 Subject: How did you discover ... ? In-Reply-To: <00f701c21345$b19cce30$1401a8c0@Spencer> Message-ID: > I'm curious. How did you discover Steve's books, and how did you > learn of this mailing list? I wish I had a good answer for these questions. I don't remember when I first read Jhereg, but it was probably somewhere between 1985 and 1990. And I found out about this list through my vast network of spies, by which I mean Laurel Krahn's Livejournal. -Monty From pmgardne at earthlink.net Thu Jun 13 19:04:56 2002 From: pmgardne at earthlink.net (Paul Gardner) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:4:56 -0700 Subject: How did you discover ... ? Message-ID: <41200265142456654@earthlink.net> tyan at twcny.rr.com writes: >I'm curious. How did you discover Steve's books, and how did you >learn of this mailing list? I was reading through Terri Windling's novel recommendations in "The Year's Best Fantasy and Horror" (in whatever edition it was), and saw her enthusiastic rec for "The Phoenix Guards". I bought it, read it, loved it, and promptly went out and bought/read-at-the-library everything he'd written to that point. I've been a huge fan ever since. I found out about the list from dreamcafe.com, which I made it a point to check every so often (now that's not so important, since news comes to me in my Inbox). From rone at ennui.org Thu Jun 13 19:22:27 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (figmentality) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:22:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How did you discover ... ? In-Reply-To: <3D0930A3.3040509@juima.org> Message-ID: <20020614022227.CCAC726E2D@boredom.ennui.org> Thomas Yan wrote: > I'm curious. How did you discover Steve's books, and how did you > learn of this mailing list? My brother is the main purveyor of any cool reading i own (DC Vertigo stuff, Pratchett, skzb). Someone dropped a line on the Yahoo list about this list, so i signed up. I'll send a lame intro thingy soon... rone -- Constancy of the speed of light is a conclusion, yes it is a conclusion based on nonconvincing, irrational assumptions. WHAT IS LIGHT?! Whose light? From what sourse? Please do not mention electronagnetics - the same applies to them. - Alexander Abian From nthuleen at students.wisc.edu Thu Jun 13 19:24:10 2002 From: nthuleen at students.wisc.edu (Nancy Thuleen) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:24:10 -0500 Subject: How did you discover ... ? In-Reply-To: <200206132243.g5DMhJw3000718@localhost.twcny.rr.com> References: <200206132243.g5DMhJw3000718@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: At 18:43 -0400 13.6.2002, Thomas Yan wrote: > I'm curious. How did you discover Steve's books, and how did you > learn of this mailing list? I was in 7th grade in 1983 and reading everything I could get my hands on [1] -- mostly sf and fantasy with the occasional mystery. In one of my trips to the bookstore with a gift certificate, I picked up Jhereg because, as another poster said, it looked like the kind of fantasy I was enjoying (I think my other favorites at the time were Thieves' World, Darkover, Randall Garrett, and a year or two later, Zelazny). I loved the irony-laden 1st-person narration, and picked up everything else I saw by Brust from then on. I somehow missed The Gypsy when it came out, and I never saw To Reign in Hell until Orb reissued it, but just about everything else I read as it was published. My tastes have matured a bit, but I've found more and more to love about Steve's books, so at this point I'd call him one of my top 3 or 4 favorite authors. Like others, I saw DDB announce this list on rasfw, so I signed up; I'd been in the habit of checking Steve's webpage now and then, but rasfw got the news to me more quickly. - Nancy. 1: 'voracious' is hardly descriptive enough: my rate was around 6 books a week, if I recall correctly ... how I wish I could still keep that up! From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Thu Jun 13 19:27:28 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:27:28 -0500 Subject: How did you discover ... ? References: <200206132243.g5DMhJw3000718@localhost.twcny.rr.com> <20020613180133.B3422@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <3D09548F.73C18362@attbi.com> You know, I've been trying to remember that . . . Teckla was the first one I read, but i have no idea what led me to pick it out. I may have read a non-Dragheran novel first, and then picked out another random book by this guy . . . If so, it was probably The Sun, The Moon, and The Stars. As if anybody cares, the only two of Steve's books that I couldn't make it through were TRiH and Cowboy Feng's. Dunno why . . . Mia From sraun at fireopal.org Thu Jun 13 19:29:57 2002 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:29:57 -0500 Subject: How did you discover ... ? In-Reply-To: <200206132243.g5DMhJw3000718@localhost.twcny.rr.com> References: <200206132243.g5DMhJw3000718@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <20020614022957.GA29507@fireopal.org> On Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 06:43:19PM -0400, Thomas Yan wrote: > I'm curious. How did you discover Steve's books The Dragaeran Cultural Archives in MinneAPA. I have a first printing Ace paperback, signed by Steven 1 April 1983 at Minicon 19. It's also signed by Aliera, Daymar, Morollan and Kragar. This is NOT my reading copy! > and how did you learn of this mailing list? Listening to DD-B talk about it in my kitchen. Or was it my dining room? One of the two. When he posted the announcement to natter at mnstf.org, I passed it along to the Liaden Universe and Lois McMaster Bujold mailing lists. I recognize at least a couple of people from those lists. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Thu Jun 13 19:31:03 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:31:03 -0500 Subject: How did you discover ... ? References: <200206132243.g5DMhJw3000718@localhost.twcny.rr.com> <20020613180133.B3422@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <3D095567.A6B09027@attbi.com> Oh, yeah--how I learned about the list . . . that's easy. Glenn (spouse, for those of you who don't know us) keeps his ear to the cyberground, and he passed the word on--he knows I'm a big fan. Mia From meersan at mn.astound.net Thu Jun 13 20:17:23 2002 From: meersan at mn.astound.net (Melissa Fitzgerald) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 22:17:23 -0500 Subject: How did you discover ... ? In-Reply-To: <200206132243.g5DMhJw3000718@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020613221723.007b9380@astound.net> At 06:43 PM 6/13/02 -0400, Thomas Yan wrote: >I'm curious. How did you discover Steve's books, and how did you >learn of this mailing list? The first thing I read was _The Phoenix Guards_. I didn't know anything about Dragaera or any of the Houses--I felt like I was peeking over Paarfi's shoulder trying to figure out what everything meant. I understood none of the blithe references to thousands of years etc., and I thought maybe a 'year' was a lot shorter in the Empire, except that didn't always work out right. Anyway, I was fascinated, and I moved on to _Five Hundred Years After_. After that I read _Freedom and Necessity_. I'm pretty new to Vlad Taltos The Series; when I noticed the omnibus editions I picked them up. That was about 8 weeks ago. Haven't read Athyra yet--I'm not willing to pay $40 for a used paperback. Hopefully _The Book of Athyra_ will come out soon. Google led me to Cracks and Shards, which led me to Dream Caf?, which led me here. Great stuff. -- m e e r s a n . "Yea, though I walk through the - - -a t- - - . shadow of the valley of Brust, a s t o u n d . I will fear no spoilers: for I d o t - n e t . have read the books. Mostly." From rsuitor at cjwrfs.net Thu Jun 13 20:14:58 2002 From: rsuitor at cjwrfs.net (Richard Suitor) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 23:14:58 -0400 Subject: Spoiler protection In-Reply-To: <200206131756.g5DHuYEp000396@localhost.twcny.rr.com> References: <157fgug2pkvkmaer6fmsbvf00oi1tn73s7@4ax.com> <200206131756.g5DHuYEp000396@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:56:34 -0400 (EDT), tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) wrote: (I had written earlier: >> They will be an annoyance to Steve -- I would think that >> in this group that would be a major inducement not to use them. But >> others may have different views. > >Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying here. Please explain? He will never benefit from a spoiler warning. I hope. I think. Well, hardly ever. If we require such a thing he will have to choose between ignoring the practice, or taking the trouble to stick one in. I would rather make his participation easy - that's one of the reason's I'm here, although several of the books I haven't read, and it looks like it may be a while before I get the chance. I would rather say to those who legitimately don't wish to be spoiled - and it is, I agree, a very legitimate wish - "Read gingerly." "Look for discussion on books *after* you've read them." That is difficult here, because the books are tied together, and threads careen recklessly from volume to volume. But I'd say that is the nature of this particular beast, and people concerned about being spoiled should perhaps wait before lurking here. If not - "Read gingerly." Just one person's opinion. And I've appreciated your contributions on a variety of subjects in several groups. Richard From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Jun 13 20:26:29 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 23:26:29 EDT Subject: Spoiler protection Message-ID: <42.28a13d51.2a3abc65@aol.com> In a message dated 6/13/2002 9:15:57 PM Mountain Daylight Time, rsuitor at cjwrfs.net writes: > If we require such a thing he will have to choose between ignoring the > practice, or taking the trouble to stick one in. > Steve?!? Give out a spoiler? Hah! He's one of the most close-mouthed ba--- errr, umm, he's one of the most stingy---- err, ummm.....he's one of the most ambiguous, murk----err....he's the most handsome, bestest author around! Yeah! That's it! -winks- I'm only kidding, of course. Besides, I like that you (meaning Steve) don't give anything away, although I'd be willing to give you (again Steve) one of my ovaries to know who/what Devera really is. Stacy From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Jun 13 20:40:16 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 13 Jun 2002 22:40:16 -0500 Subject: How did you discover ... ? In-Reply-To: <34CD1DA3.5E017A51.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <34CD1DA3.5E017A51.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: Gaertk at aol.com writes: > In a message dated Thu, 13 Jun 2002 ?6:42:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) writes: > > > I'm curious. ?How did you discover Steve's books, and how > > did you learn of this mailing list? > > I used to hang out on rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan, > where I eventually heard of Brust (and Pratchett), and then > I started hanging out on rec.arts.sf.written to discuss > them (where I discovered tons of other authors). > > I learned of this list from DDB's post to rasfw (I wouldn't > have noticed Brust's mention on his website since I always > go straight to the weblog). > > Interestingly enough, about an hour or so before Thomas > wrote his post, I posted about this list to the Brust > Yahoo group, in the hopes of alerting Damien and Mark (and > anyone else there interested). I'm glad someone did. I knew about that group, but it seemed to me bad form to drop in as somebody who had never posted before and try to attract the members somewhere else. But on the other hand certainly the members would be interested to know. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Jun 13 20:45:42 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 13 Jun 2002 22:45:42 -0500 Subject: How did you discover ... ? In-Reply-To: <20020614022957.GA29507@fireopal.org> References: <200206132243.g5DMhJw3000718@localhost.twcny.rr.com> <20020614022957.GA29507@fireopal.org> Message-ID: Scott Raun writes: > On Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 06:43:19PM -0400, Thomas Yan wrote: > > I'm curious. How did you discover Steve's books > > The Dragaeran Cultural Archives in MinneAPA. I have a first printing > Ace paperback, signed by Steven 1 April 1983 at Minicon 19. It's also > signed by Aliera, Daymar, Morollan and Kragar. This is NOT my reading > copy! Ah, that was *you*. Didn't quite remember who had done that (though I suppose several people could have). > > and how did you learn of this mailing list? > > Listening to DD-B talk about it in my kitchen. Or was it my dining > room? One of the two. Given typical fannish behavior at parties, probably standing in the doorway between the two (and blocking traffic). > When he posted the announcement to natter at mnstf.org, I passed it along > to the Liaden Universe and Lois McMaster Bujold mailing lists. I > recognize at least a couple of people from those lists. Thanks! -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Jun 13 20:33:38 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 23:33:38 EDT Subject: How did you discover ... ? Message-ID: <152.f4f8f28.2a3abe12@aol.com> In a message dated 6/13/2002 9:32:49 PM Mountain Daylight Time, dd-b at dd-b.net writes: > Given typical fannish behavior at parties, probably standing in the > doorway between the two (and blocking traffic). > Why am I never invited to these parties? ;) Stacy From rachael at daedala.net Thu Jun 13 20:50:53 2002 From: rachael at daedala.net (Rachael Lininger) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 22:50:53 -0500 (CDT) Subject: How did you discover ... ? In-Reply-To: <152.f4f8f28.2a3abe12@aol.com> Message-ID: On Jun 13, Starshadw at aol.com said: >In a message dated 6/13/2002 9:32:49 PM Mountain Daylight Time, dd-b at dd-b.net >writes: > >> Given typical fannish behavior at parties, probably standing in the >> doorway between the two (and blocking traffic). > >Why am I never invited to these parties? ;) You're invited. First & third saturdays of the month. www.mnstf.org Rachael -- Rachael From the Dilbert Newsletter: Lininger "You should talk to her. rachael@ She is a minefield of information." daedala.net From tyan at twcny.rr.com Thu Jun 13 21:04:32 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 00:04:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [readalong] What first? In-Reply-To: <6679EF63.26094911.00048EA6@aol.com> (Gaertk@aol.com) References: <6679EF63.26094911.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <200206140404.g5E44Wv8001122@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Gaertk at aol.com wrote on Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:05:22 > Since some people wanted notifications on this list of when > we start readalongs, should we then discus what to read > next here also? My suggestion is that it be announced here that book selection is about to start, but actual discussion be on readalong. (Have we waited long enough to give those interested a chance to sign up?) The archive means it is not necessary to do so, but an optional courtesy might be to wait 24 hours after the announcement to start discussion, in case digest mechanics means that people (re)signing up for readalong might miss some messages posted before they sign up. > If so, I'd like to start off by suggesting using my > chronological order (posted earlier), which means starting > with _The Phoenix Guards_. And if we handle things right, > we should be able to schedule it so we're ending our > discussion of _Five Hundred Years After_ when _Paths of the > Dead_ show up. That sounds like a good book to start with, and I think it also means spoilers for other books are much less likely. - tky From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Jun 13 21:28:29 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 13 Jun 2002 23:28:29 -0500 Subject: How did you discover ... ? In-Reply-To: <152.f4f8f28.2a3abe12@aol.com> References: <152.f4f8f28.2a3abe12@aol.com> Message-ID: Starshadw at aol.com writes: > In a message dated 6/13/2002 9:32:49 PM Mountain Daylight Time, dd-b at dd-b.net > writes: > > > > Given typical fannish behavior at parties, probably standing in the > > doorway between the two (and blocking traffic). > > > > Why am I never invited to these parties? ;) http://www.mnstf.org/einblatt is the monthly newsletter of the Minnesota Science Fiction Society. Everybody with an interest in SF is invited to our semi-monthly gatherings, which we call meetings but which are actually parties of the "talking" as opposed to "recorded music" variety. (Exact dates and locations are in Einblatt; they're generally in members' homes.) Of course, nearly all of them are here in Minnesota, which may limit your interest in actually *attending* one. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Jun 13 21:32:12 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 13 Jun 2002 23:32:12 -0500 Subject: [readalong] What first? In-Reply-To: <200206140404.g5E44Wv8001122@localhost.twcny.rr.com> References: <6679EF63.26094911.00048EA6@aol.com> <200206140404.g5E44Wv8001122@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) writes: > Gaertk at aol.com wrote on Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:05:22 > > Since some people wanted notifications on this list of when > > we start readalongs, should we then discus what to read > > next here also? > > My suggestion is that it be announced here that book selection is > about to start, but actual discussion be on readalong. (Have we > waited long enough to give those interested a chance to sign up?) I'd also prefer that the discussion be conducted over in the readalong list. And am inclined to think that it's really time to move the discussion of how to organize the readlong list over to the readalong list. (Remember: I'm *not* the person in charge of this list, these are my personal opinions only and not a directive with any force to it.) (Sometimes gets confusing being simultaneously the person owning the hardware this runs on, the most visible voice (how's that for a mixed metaphor!) of the top level "owners" of the site, a very opinionated human being, and *not* the person actually in charge of this list. I *try* to keep from throwing my *weight*, as opposed to my *opinions*, around.) -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From tyan at twcny.rr.com Thu Jun 13 21:23:58 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 00:23:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: *Readalong* Spoiler protection [was: Spoiler protection] In-Reply-To: <20020614015104.GA15198@infodancer.org> (message from Matthew Hunter on Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:51:04 -0500) References: <20020614015104.GA15198@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <200206140423.g5E4NwYg001125@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Matthew Hunter wrote on Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:51:04 > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 07:45:55PM -0400, Thomas Yan wrote: > > But to reiterate, I would still want to see labeled spoiler space for > > other books, even if they are broad spectrum. In fact, I expect to > > often resort to labels like: > > > > + "Spoilers for all Vlad books to date" > > + "Pub-o spoilers thru Phoenix" > > (What's a good abbreviation for "publication order?) > > + "Ser-o spoilers thru Phoenix" > > (What's a good abbreviation for "series order?) > > This is just silly. *shrug* "Spoilers for all books to date" is simple and encompassing, and Usenet-style replies are auto-protected: The warning is there unless explicitly deleted or modified. > EVERY post will end up having spoiler protection in it. There is > a point at which you just have to assume people have read the > books in order to have a discussion about the books. All the > major Dragaera works are in print to the best of my knowledge. Doesn't this... > If people want to discuss the books and can't afford to buy > what's currently published all at once, they would logically join > the readalong list and buy one book per month or so as that list > progresses. ...imply there are books in the series that some participants won't have read, and thus would appreciate spoiler protection for such books? But it does look like maybe I'm the only one who feels this strongly regarding the readalong list, and since in fact I *have* read all the non-collaborative books, I'm not going to be deeply affected. So I'll stop flogging this issue shortly. It's just that I would be deeply frustrated to discover such a mailing list in the early stages of discovering a new author. - tky From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Jun 13 21:39:59 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:39:59 -0700 Subject: Spoiler protection In-Reply-To: <42.28a13d51.2a3abc65@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020613213829.00a4d990@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:26 PM 6/13/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >Steve?!? Give out a spoiler? Hah! He's one of the most close-mouthed ba--- >errr, umm, he's one of the most stingy---- err, ummm.....he's one of the most >ambiguous, murk----err....he's the most handsome, bestest author around! >Yeah! That's it! > >-winks- I'm only kidding, of course. Besides, I like that you (meaning >Steve) don't give anything away, although I'd be willing to give you (again >Steve) one of my ovaries to know who/what Devera really is. From moodygrrl at earthlink.net Thu Jun 13 21:40:01 2002 From: moodygrrl at earthlink.net (Lori Reeder) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 23:40:01 -0500 Subject: *Readalong* Spoiler protection [was: Spoiler protection] References: <3A53F6B3.5A304621.0296E7C9@aol.com> <200206132345.g5DNjtOL000799@localhost.twcny.rr.com> <20020614015104.GA15198@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <00c401c2135d$9abed880$aab6c343@moodygrrl> Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 07:45:55PM -0400, Thomas Yan > wrote: >> But to reiterate, I would still want to see labeled spoiler space for >> other books, even if they are broad spectrum. In fact, I expect to >> often resort to labels like: >> >> + "Spoilers for all Vlad books to date" >> + "Pub-o spoilers thru Phoenix" >> (What's a good abbreviation for "publication order?) >> + "Ser-o spoilers thru Phoenix" >> (What's a good abbreviation for "series order?) > > This is just silly. > > EVERY post will end up having spoiler protection in it. There is > a point at which you just have to assume people have read the > books in order to have a discussion about the books. All the > major Dragaera works are in print to the best of my knowledge. > If people want to discuss the books and can't afford to buy > what's currently published all at once, they would logically join > the readalong list and buy one book per month or so as that list > progresses. I agree. I would like to participate in the read-along but if we have to follow alot of complicated spoiler rules that would involve (at least for me) stacking all of Steve's books next to the pc and spending a fair amount of time leafing through them trying to remember which book(s) the incident(s) I want to talk about was in and then figuring the spoiler warning(s) that was necessary I would wind up never posting for fear of angering/spoiling someone. Perhaps spoiler warnings for any new books that are published for the first month or so to allow for budget/real life/workload interference would be the best, as someone mentioned the rasfwr-j ng does. Along with those folks who haven't read everything by Steve (yet) reading the list 'gingerly', as someone else suggested. Anyway, that's my vote. From moodygrrl at earthlink.net Thu Jun 13 21:43:49 2002 From: moodygrrl at earthlink.net (Lori Reeder) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 23:43:49 -0500 Subject: How did you discover ... ? References: <200206132243.g5DMhJw3000718@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <00c501c2135e$2cd2eef0$aab6c343@moodygrrl> Thomas Yan wrote: > I'm curious. How did you discover Steve's books, and how did you > learn of this mailing list? > (snippage) > - tky I discovered Steve's books when a co-worker at Borders recommended Jhereg to me. At the time,1992, it was easier to come by most of the other books which I eagerly read finishing the backlist and then as they came out. I have reread all of them at least once, usually right after finishing them the first time. I read them again, lingering rather than racing through to "see what happens." After a new book comes out I wind up flipping through the earlier books to pick up threads mentioned in the new book and get sucked right into the earlier books, so I wind up reading large chunks of the earlier books. The Khaavren romances were especially deadly for that. For some reason I also have a vague memory of The Hat being a factor in picking up Steve's books, as in "Anyone who wears a hat like that around probably either writes good fantasy books, or is really weird, or (hopefully) both." It would be great to be able to discuss the Liavek books as well since I like that world quite a bit. But after five years of checking each used bookstore I come across I've only managed to get three volumes (and I think one is from Ebay) so that could be problematic for those of us who don't have all the books. I learned about the website from seeing the announcement on Steve's site, which I discovered from his infrequent posts on rasfw and rassef, where I lurk occaisionally. As others have mentioned it's great to be on a mailing list for an author where he's a contributor! From meersan at mn.astound.net Thu Jun 13 21:50:58 2002 From: meersan at mn.astound.net (Melissa Fitzgerald) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 23:50:58 -0500 Subject: How did you discover ... ? In-Reply-To: References: <152.f4f8f28.2a3abe12@aol.com> <152.f4f8f28.2a3abe12@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020613235058.007ba370@astound.net> At 11:28 PM 6/13/02 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >http://www.mnstf.org/einblatt is the monthly newsletter of the >Minnesota Science Fiction Society. Everybody with an interest in SF >is invited to our semi-monthly gatherings, which we call meetings but >which are actually parties of the "talking" as opposed to "recorded >music" variety. (Exact dates and locations are in Einblatt; they're >generally in members' homes.) Hmm, now that I'm living in Mn again I should check out this sort of thing. Too bad it's Fathers' Day weekend. I'll have to keep an eye on the mnsft.org site. Thanks for the info, btw. -- m e e r s a n - - -a t- - - a s t o u n d d o t - n e t From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Jun 13 21:53:16 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 00:53:16 EDT Subject: Spoiler protection Message-ID: <142.fecf762.2a3ad0bc@aol.com> In a message dated 6/13/2002 10:40:16 PM Mountain Daylight Time, skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > in the air, and at last decides that there is simply no possible response> > Now, see, I have a very bizarre, sometimes twisted sense of humor. I almost didn't send the message, but then thought "Oh, what the heck" and clicked the button. Then, I immediately began to wonder if it would be taken the wrong way (not that there is necessarily a right way, but rather by wrong meaning not the way I intended). I'll be more careful in the future and triple-check before I hit "Send." Stacy From tyan at twcny.rr.com Thu Jun 13 22:00:26 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 01:00:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: *Readalong* Spoiler protection [was: Spoiler protection] In-Reply-To: <00c401c2135d$9abed880$aab6c343@moodygrrl> References: <00c401c2135d$9abed880$aab6c343@moodygrrl> Message-ID: <200206140500.g5E50Qtf001153@localhost.twcny.rr.com> [slightly rearranged] "Lori Reeder" wrote on Thu, 13 Jun 2002 23:40:01 > [...] I would like to participate in the read-along but if we > have to follow alot of complicated spoiler rules [...] I want simple rules, too. "Must protect if newer than months" strike *me* as more complicated than "always protect" :) wrote: > >> [...] I expect to often resort to labels like: > >> > >> + "Spoilers for all Vlad books to date" See, nice and simple. :) People who want to be more precise about their warnings are free to do so. - tky From rone at ennui.org Thu Jun 13 22:11:32 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (figmentality) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 22:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Food and critters Message-ID: <20020614051132.89EA526E26@boredom.ennui.org> Mia McDavid wrote: Anybody else? See . One animal which i see often referenced in Steven's books is the darr (more commonly in "darrskin boots"), but i've not found any guesses as to what it could be. I also greatly enjoyed the "smoked pinkfish and buttercheese" bit from _Issola_. rone -- Constancy of the speed of light is a conclusion, yes it is a conclusion based on nonconvincing, irrational assumptions. WHAT IS LIGHT?! Whose light? From what sourse? Please do not mention electronagnetics - the same applies to them. - Alexander Abian From mporter at rogers.com Thu Jun 13 22:26:27 2002 From: mporter at rogers.com (Mark Porter) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 01:26:27 -0400 Subject: Finding out above Steve's books.... References: <67ED034A-7F28-11D6-A97B-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <006f01c21364$0a413c60$59a97218@slnt.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> > tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) writes: > > I'm curious. How did you discover Steve's books, and how did you > learn of this mailing list? Since we're all sharing our fun stories, I'll take a turn. I had always been a fan of fantasy, ever since my father got me hooked on Tolkien. I got into the Weis & Hickman Dragonlance Books, a few Jordan and Pratchett books, but there was never alot of selection at the small bookstores in town. Then a Chapters, one of those huge huge book emporiums opened, which me and some friends raided. I noticed 'The Phoenix Guards' soon after starting to go through the Fantasy section alphabetically. I read a part of the first chapter, and I fell in love with Paarfi. ;-) Stangely though, they only had The Phoenix Guards and Five Hundred Years After. And being the dull-witted fellow I am, I never noticed the 'Books By Steven Brust' list at the beginning of the Phoenix Guards, so it wasn't until this past year I learned about Vlad. I found a copy of the first three Vlad books in omnibus form, picked that up, and now am DESPERATE for the rest. As for the list, I tracked down Steve's website when I was looking for info on when Viscount would be released, and the rest is history. __________________ Mark Porter Why? Why not? From lisa at spindot.com Thu Jun 13 22:41:05 2002 From: lisa at spindot.com (Lisa Grant Coffin) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 01:41:05 -0400 Subject: Spoiler protection Message-ID: <01ad01c21366$1653ae50$1401a8c0@Spencer> Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/13/2002 10:40:16 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > > >> > vacently in the air, and at last decides that there is simply no >> possible response> >> > > Now, see, I have a very bizarre, sometimes twisted sense of humor. I > almost didn't send the message, but then thought "Oh, what the heck" > and clicked the button. Then, I immediately began to wonder if it > would be taken the wrong way (not that there is necessarily a right > way, but rather by wrong meaning not the way I intended). > > I'll be more careful in the future and triple-check before I hit > "Send." > > Stacy if everyone was triple-checking their posts for, well, whatever they want to guard the list from, it would get boring! personally, i cracked up at the above exchange. lisa grant coffin From laurel at windowseat.org Thu Jun 13 22:55:10 2002 From: laurel at windowseat.org (Laurel Krahn) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 00:55:10 -0500 Subject: How did you discover ... ? In-Reply-To: <200206132243.g5DMhJw3000718@localhost.twcny.rr.com> References: <200206132243.g5DMhJw3000718@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <200206140055100130.1B643DFB@smtp-server> On 6/13/2002 at 6:43 PM tyan at twcny.rr.com wrote: >I'm curious. How did you discover Steve's books, and how did you >learn of this mailing list? I learned of the mailing list from DDB, during a discussion at a Minn-StF party (www.mnstf.org). Felix Strates may have mentioned it to me via ICQ, as well. I posted about it to my livejournal, some seem to have found it from there. I can no longer remember how exactly I discovered Steve's books. I know I picked up _Jhereg_ used and read it, seems like that was the first of Steve's novels that I read. Timeframe is difficult to narrow down. It's possible I read _To Reign In Hell_ first, I remember it wow-ing me. Yeah, seems like maybe I read it first, I think I was a little put off by diving into a series (even a relatively new one). By the time I read _Jhereg_, there were at least a couple books out in the series. I recall discovering Star Trek novels one dull summer right before I started high school (maybe?) and plowing through a ton of them and that those led me to seek out other books by John M. Ford and Diane Duane in particular. Got me hooked on sf/fantasy as an adult (I'd dug it as a kid, but hadn't read much of it in a good long while). First time I really examined the sf section of bookstores closely. And at around the same time, I discovered BBSes including Terraboard and FIDOnet and the FIDO SF Echo. And from people on various BBSes I learned of Minicon and on Terraboard I heard of Minn-StF. And I started looking for the books of people who posted to Fidonet. I think I meant to check out Steve's books, but didn't get around to it for a while. But at some point I binged on books by the Scribblies, pretty much. At the same time I started going to some Minn-StF events. And I remember trying to suss out relationships by reading the acknowledgement pages and dedications. Heh. I can't remember if I encountered Steven himself at Minicon or anywhere before I read his books or after. It's all a bit of a blur. Minicons and Fourth Streets and Fallcons and music parties and concerts and Renfest and like that. -- Laurel Krahn | www.windowseat.org | www.tvpicks.net From rone at ennui.org Thu Jun 13 23:32:04 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (figmentality) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 23:32:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: klava Message-ID: <20020614063204.70C1226E29@boredom.ennui.org> (i definitely see a need for a 'food' list...) Having read klava being defined in _Issola_, i am now curious about who exactly makes coffee this way, what fegra and crocra are, and how exactly you press coffee through eggshells. Do you use a French press or other equipment? I also note that the jhereg on the cover of _Issola_ is more birdlike, and looks like it only has two legs. Has Steven nudged the artist to render a more Brust-like jhereg? rone -- Constancy of the speed of light is a conclusion, yes it is a conclusion based on nonconvincing, irrational assumptions. WHAT IS LIGHT?! Whose light? From what sourse? Please do not mention electronagnetics - the same applies to them. - Alexander Abian From s.schwenk at wtal.de Thu Jun 13 23:52:39 2002 From: s.schwenk at wtal.de (Sebastian Schwenk) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 08:52:39 +0200 Subject: How did you discover ... ? References: <200206132243.g5DMhJw3000718@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <002a01c21370$6288e9c0$01c8c8c8@l5u8o3> On Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 06:43:19PM -0400, Thomas Yan wrote: > I'm curious. How did you discover Steve's books, and how did you > learn of this mailing list? > > I learned of this mailing list from DDB's announcement on RASF*. [rest snipped] Well, I learned of this ML from that announcement as well. It's only that I didn't discover *that* until yesterday ^^; The books I started reading some 2 months ago. The german edition of "Jhereg" was published and I liked what I read on the first few pages. But it was abominably expensive (though with this publisher it's "not a bug, it's a fea- ture"). So I bought the collection "The Book of Jhereg" instead (for roughly the same price and without any of the uncertainties and unpleasantnesses of translation). I'm now slowly catching up with the series, ATM halfway through the second book of the second ACE collection, and I still like it. Thus, here I am ^^; BTW, anybody happen to know if there's a third collection planned by ACE and if so when? Because it seems to be a little difficult to get my hands on a copy of "Athyra" from over here... so a third collection would be nice... ~Sebastian From goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU Fri Jun 14 00:02:17 2002 From: goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (David Goldfarb) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 00:02:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How did you discover ... ? Message-ID: <200206140702.g5E72Ht01634@apocalypse.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) >I'm curious. How did you discover Steve's books, and how did you >learn of this mailing list? > >I learned of this mailing list from DDB's announcement on RASF*. Ditto. As for the books, they first impinged on my radar back in the late eighties, when I worked part time at "The Other Change of Hobbit". I think it was _Taltos_ that had just come out, and one of the regular customers, seeing it, exclaimed, "Oh, wow, a new Steven Brust!" If it was _Taltos_, that would have been 1988. Later that summer I was buying books to prepare for a family vacation. So I thought I'd try out this Brust fellow. I bought _To Reign in Hell_, _Brokedown Palace_, _Jhereg_, _Yendi_, _Teckla_, and _Taltos_. (Which in retrospect seems like a lot of books to be buying "on spec", but I was younger then and paperbacks were cheaper.) I read _TRiH_ first and thought it was mildly clever but mostly kind of pointless. (My apologies to those of you who like it, but I have to call them as I see them. I especially disliked how you could tell which side a given character would end up on by their name.) Then I read _Brokedown Palace_, not knowing it had a connection to the series books. It was entertainingly weird, and the characters were enjoyable, and the prose was pleasantly engaging in much the same manner as Heinlein or early Niven -- this is a rare quality in a writer, and one I value. It was rather a brain-twisting experience to reconsider _BP_ in the light of the Vlad books, and realize that mighty wizard Sandor -- was a *Teckla*. _BP_ started making me a fan, and _Jhereg_ finished the job. The witty banter, the clever solution to the problem, the multifarious hints of a rich and complex cosmology; for me these were candy. _Yendi_ was similar; _Teckla_ wasn't, but _Taltos_ was enough of a return to the previous sort of book to ensure that I wasn't turned off. After that I started buying the books as they came out; I can well remember the suspense of waiting for _Phoenix_ to see what was going to happen to Vlad's marriage. David Goldfarb <*>|"I require three things in a man. He must be goldfarb at ocf.berkeley.edu | handsome, ruthless, and stupid." goldfarb at csua.berkeley.edu | -- Dorothy Parker From goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU Fri Jun 14 00:08:28 2002 From: goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (David Goldfarb) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 00:08:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How did you discover ... ? Message-ID: <200206140708.g5E78SJ01790@apocalypse.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) >Do you also keep a booklog? What do you put in it, and is it >electronic? I keep a booklog, though I don't log anything else. It isn't even plain ASCII -- it's ink-on-paper. I divide it by months, and record title, author, and genre; then at the end of the year I go back and count books read, both total and by genre. I started in 1993, but my first book was ruined when I had a fire in 1998. I therefore didn't log for the last quarter of '98, but I started up again in '99. -- David Goldfarb <*>|"You are trapped in that bright moment where you goldfarb at ocf.berkeley.edu | learned your doom." goldfarb at csua.berkeley.edu | -- Samuel R. Delany, _City of a Thousand Suns_ From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Jun 14 00:57:02 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 02:57:02 -0500 Subject: *Readalong* Spoiler protection [was: Spoiler protection] In-Reply-To: <200206140500.g5E50Qtf001153@localhost.twcny.rr.com> References: <00c401c2135d$9abed880$aab6c343@moodygrrl> <200206140500.g5E50Qtf001153@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <20020614075701.GA481@infodancer.org> On Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 01:00:26AM -0400, Thomas Yan wrote: > [slightly rearranged] > "Lori Reeder" wrote on Thu, 13 Jun 2002 23:40:01 > > [...] I would like to participate in the read-along but if we > > have to follow alot of complicated spoiler rules [...] > I want simple rules, too. "Must protect if newer than months" > strike *me* as more complicated than "always protect" :) Tell you what. Can you define criteria under which an on-topic message would NOT deserve spoiler protection? If you can, then we can have a discussion about whether that criteria is more or less suitable than "time since publication". If you can't, then lets put a warning *prominently* in the list rules that spoilers are rampant and if you have not read everything available, beware... because we'll be spoiler-protecting every message anyway and we might as well be efficient about it. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jun 14 02:36:23 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 02:36:23 -0700 Subject: Spoiler protection In-Reply-To: <142.fecf762.2a3ad0bc@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020614023511.00a4fe60@pop3.lvcm.com> At 12:53 AM 6/14/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >I'll be more careful in the future and triple-check before I hit "Send." Oh, heavens no! Don't do that! I don't want to be the only one with a send now regret later policy. From alan at 5sc.net Fri Jun 14 05:05:33 2002 From: alan at 5sc.net (Alan) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 08:05:33 -0400 Subject: How did you discover ... ? In-Reply-To: <200206132243.g5DMhJw3000718@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: I also belong to Liad. This mailing list of the Liaden Universe run by Sharon Lee and Steve Miller who wrote "Agent of Change", and "I Dare" among many others. *Wonderful* books. They are right up there with Steves books on my comfort shelf. The Dragaera list was mentioned there. Seeing as how Jhereg is one of favorite books of all time, I hoofed it over here as fast as I could type. :) Alan P.S. If you are interested in Liad, a note to Mr. Deagauss at deagauss at korval.com will get you started. > -----Original Message----- > From: Thomas Yan [mailto:tyan at twcny.rr.com] > Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 18:43 > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: How did you discover ... ? > > > I'm curious. How did you discover Steve's books, and how did you > learn of this mailing list? > > I learned of this mailing list from DDB's announcement on RASF*. > > I first discovered Steve's books one glorious summer many years ago > when my family was house sitting for a friend. They had a ton of > books, so I happily 2 to 3 books a day. That was mucho fun. One of > the books was _To Reign in Hell_, which I think I found somewhat > puzzling at the time. > > Anyway, for whatever reason, I didn't seek out Steve's books and, to > some extent, forgot he was the author of TRiH. > > So more recently I re-discovered his books because there were lots of > discussions on RASFW, and because Jo Walton had a rave about him at > her website: It looked like I was missing out a lot of the fun. > > So then I made up for lost time: all the pre-Issola Vlad books, _The > Sun, the Moon, and the Stars_, _Issola_, the Khaavren romances, > _Brokedown Palace_, _Agyar_, _Cowboy Feng's Space Bar and Grille_, and > all 5 Liavek books. > > Hm, I know I reread TRiH somewhere in there; looks like I forgot to > record it in my minimalist booklog. Damn! > > - tky > From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Fri Jun 14 06:29:23 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 08:29:23 -0500 Subject: Spoilers: (Was Spoiler protection) References: <42.28a13d51.2a3abc65@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D09EFB2.D8568A09@attbi.com> Hey, Steve, Something I've been wondering. Do *you* know where all this is going? Do you know how things are going to turn out in "The Last Contract", or are you making it up as you go along? Do you know who Devera is? Or is she just a way to mess with our heads? I don't expect any *answers*, mind you, but I do wonder . . . Mia From singram at videotron.ca Fri Jun 14 06:32:35 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 09:32:35 -0400 Subject: Spoiler protection References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020613213829.00a4d990@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <000e01c213a7$f1cc9d20$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Brust" To: ; Sent: Friday, June 14, 2002 12:39 AM Subject: Re: Spoiler protection > At 11:26 PM 6/13/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > > >Steve) don't give anything away, although I'd be willing to give you (again > >Steve) one of my ovaries to know who/what Devera really is. > > in the air, and at last decides that there is simply no possible response> He's probably wonder what he'd do with an ovary... From joelynch at inreach.com Fri Jun 14 07:08:35 2002 From: joelynch at inreach.com (Joe Lynch) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 07:08:35 -0700 Subject: klava In-Reply-To: <20020614063204.70C1226E29@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: From: figmentality [mailto:rone at ennui.org] > Having read klava being defined in _Issola_, i am now curious about > who exactly makes coffee this way, what fegra and crocra are, and how > exactly you press coffee through eggshells. Do you use a French press > or other equipment? Not sure the answer in Dragaera, but my dad used to make "cowboy coffee" using egg shells when we went camping. It was nasty, and if I remember right, he used the egg shells to hold the grounds. It was a very long time ago... From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Jun 14 07:13:05 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 10:13:05 -0400 Subject: Spoiler protection In-Reply-To: <000e01c213a7$f1cc9d20$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: On Friday, June 14, 2002, at 09:32 AM, Scott Ingram wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steven Brust" > To: ; > Sent: Friday, June 14, 2002 12:39 AM > Subject: Re: Spoiler protection > > >> At 11:26 PM 6/13/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >> >>> Steve) don't give anything away, although I'd be willing to give you > (again >>> Steve) one of my ovaries to know who/what Devera really is. >> >> > vacently >> in the air, and at last decides that there is simply no possible >> response> > > He's probably wonder what he'd do with an ovary... > > > I was stunned that you'd sacrifice body parts for Steve. Really, I think offering up like a family member for sacrifice or a pet would do just fine instead :-) From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Jun 14 07:23:52 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 10:23:52 -0400 Subject: Spoiler rules Message-ID: <59B367B6-7FA2-11D6-97E2-00039386187A@adelphia.net> I am going to post this on the readalong list as well. I offer up these few rules for discussion before I make them official. 1. Everything posted on the Readalong list is, by definition, spoilers. See my previous email to see what I mean. 2. Put only the work we are discussing in the header. If we are discussing Teckla, put Teckla in the header. If we are discussing a specific chapter of Teckla, put Teckla Chapter Two in the header. 3. I think the list will set the pace so I won't define how long we dwell on a specific part just yet but I might nudge if we spent, oh, 6 weeks on Chapter Five of The Phoenix Guards, for instance. 4. I think we should start with an older work of Steve's, perhaps the the much discussed Teckla, just to get our feet wet and we'll go from there. 5. Of course any of Steve's works are up for reading, including his stories in the Liavek books. Chris Readalong Guru From tyan at twcny.rr.com Fri Jun 14 10:18:57 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:18:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: To Reign in Hell [was: How did you discover] In-Reply-To: <200206140702.g5E72Ht01634@apocalypse.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> (message from David Goldfarb on Fri, 14 Jun 2002 00:02:17 -0700 (PDT)) References: <200206140702.g5E72Ht01634@apocalypse.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: <200206141718.g5EHIvQY000355@localhost.twcny.rr.com> David Goldfarb wrote on Fri, 14 Jun 2002 00:02:17 > > I read _TRiH_ first and thought it was mildly clever but mostly kind of > pointless. (My apologies to those of you who like it, but I have to call > them as I see them. When I first read it, I think I found it interesting, but was frustrated at how stupid the characters were behaving. When I reread it recently, I liked it more. I was more sympathetic to the characters; it read like a tragedy. > I especially disliked how you could tell which > side a given character would end up on by their name.) That was true for about a handful of characters, but I guess for the rest "ignorance is bliss": The names weren't familiar and didn't strike me as obviously belonging to one side or the other... ...Oh. Wait. *** (potential) Spoilers for To Reign in Hell *** How did you know Abdiel's side from his name? Was it the "iel" suffix -- did all such characters have the same allegiance? - tky From tyan at twcny.rr.com Fri Jun 14 10:21:22 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:21:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Devera [was: protection] In-Reply-To: <42.28a13d51.2a3abc65@aol.com> (Starshadw@aol.com) References: <42.28a13d51.2a3abc65@aol.com> Message-ID: <200206141721.g5EHLMSF000366@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Starshadw at aol.com wrote on Thu, 13 Jun 2002 23:26:29 EDT - snip entertaining stuff :) - > [...] I like that you (meaning > Steve) don't give anything away, although I'd be willing to give you (again > Steve) one of my ovaries to know who/what Devera really is. Spoilers for all Vlad books published thru Issola, plus Brokedown Palace, and, to muddy the waters, maybe --or maybe not-- some unattributed spoilers from Steve himself. Well, given who her mother is, she's got godhood in her veins, e.g. she is obviously comes and goes from the Halls of Judgment without any problem. Plus, she's got time travel -- she hasn't been born yet. She says explicitly in Brokedown that she'll live a very long time -- laughs as if it's obvious. At the big battle at the end of Issola, she's the dragon who seemed to recognize Vlad and who looked vaguely familiar to him, and had familiar manners. She's a god. (She's not a demon: Can you imagine her being under someone else's control? :) (Hm. Interesting that it skipped a generation [1].) So you can take her appearing in non-Dragaeran books as either (a) something to handwave away by the fact that she's a god, or (b) evidence that she can manifest in all sorts of places, i.e. evidence that she is a god. I forget. Do we ever explicitly see her simultaneously manifest in 2+ places? [1] Tangent: Supposedly having twins tends to alternate generations. Is there data for this, or is it folklore? - tky From tyan at twcny.rr.com Fri Jun 14 10:25:23 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:25:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: How did you discover ... ? In-Reply-To: <00c501c2135e$2cd2eef0$aab6c343@moodygrrl> References: <00c501c2135e$2cd2eef0$aab6c343@moodygrrl> Message-ID: <200206141725.g5EHPNhF000369@localhost.twcny.rr.com> "Lori Reeder" wrote on Thu, 13 Jun 2002 23:43:49 > It would be great to be able to discuss the Liavek books as well > since I like that world quite a bit. But after five years of > checking each used bookstore I come across I've only managed to get > three volumes (and I think one is from Ebay) so that could be > problematic for those of us who don't have all the books. *smug grin* I located someone selling the entire set on abebooks.com. I think the price per book was about trade paperback cost. (I did something similar to acquire all 7 of Dorothy Dunnett's mysteries.) - tky From meersan at mn.astound.net Fri Jun 14 10:31:13 2002 From: meersan at mn.astound.net (Melissa Fitzgerald) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:31:13 -0500 Subject: To Reign in Hell [was: How did you discover] In-Reply-To: <200206141718.g5EHIvQY000355@localhost.twcny.rr.com> References: <200206140702.g5E72Ht01634@apocalypse.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> <200206140702.g5E72Ht01634@apocalypse.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020614123113.007bc9c0@astound.net> At 01:18 PM 6/14/02 -0400, Thomas Yan wrote: >David Goldfarb wrote on Fri, 14 Jun 2002 00:02:17 >> >> I read _TRiH_ first and thought it was mildly clever but mostly kind of >> pointless. (My apologies to those of you who like it, but I have to call >> them as I see them. > >When I first read it, I think I found it interesting, but was >frustrated at how stupid the characters were behaving. > >When I reread it recently, I liked it more. I was more sympathetic to >the characters; it read like a tragedy. > >> I especially disliked how you could tell which >> side a given character would end up on by their name.) > >That was true for about a handful of characters, but I guess for the >rest "ignorance is bliss": The names weren't familiar and didn't >strike me as obviously belonging to one side or the other... > >...Oh. Wait. > >*** (potential) Spoilers for To Reign in Hell *** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >How did you know Abdiel's side from his name? Was it the "iel" suffix >-- did all such characters have the same allegiance? Abdiel literally means 'servant of God'. ;) It's been a while since I read _Paradise Lost_, though. I agree that TRIH comes off more as a tragedy, but it's epic material. From mss2 at attbi.com Fri Jun 14 10:38:12 2002 From: mss2 at attbi.com (Michael S. Schiffer) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:38:12 -0500 Subject: Devera [was: protection] In-Reply-To: <200206141721.g5EHLMSF000366@localhost.twcny.rr.com> References: <42.28a13d51.2a3abc65@aol.com> <42.28a13d51.2a3abc65@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020614123149.02acf520@mail.attbi.com> At 01:21 PM 6/14/2002 -0400, Thomas Yan wrote: >Starshadw at aol.com wrote on Thu, 13 Jun 2002 23:26:29 EDT >- snip entertaining stuff :) - > > [...] I like that you (meaning > > Steve) don't give anything away, although I'd be willing to give you > (again > > Steve) one of my ovaries to know who/what Devera really is. > >Spoilers for all Vlad books published thru Issola, plus Brokedown >Palace, and, to muddy the waters, maybe --or maybe not-- some >unattributed spoilers from Steve himself. Still spoilers: >... >She's a god. (She's not a demon: Can you imagine her being under >someone else's control? :) (Hm. Interesting that it skipped a >generation [1].) Do we know that it did? IIRC, Sethra mentioned in _Issola_ that she'd been offered godhood. That implies that Aliera might be able to take up godhood at some point in the future. Granted, Devera seems to have picked it up at an earlier age than Aliera is now. (*Seems*-- she's a time-travelling likely-immortal probable-shapeshifter, and could be any age from the child she appears to be to older than Sethra when she decides to go back and observe her origins. But from her behavior, she's probably actually young most of the times we see her.) Mike From tyan at twcny.rr.com Fri Jun 14 10:44:24 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:44:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: *Dragaera* Spoiler protection In-Reply-To: <20020614075701.GA481@infodancer.org> (message from Matthew Hunter on Fri, 14 Jun 2002 02:57:02 -0500) References: <20020614075701.GA481@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <200206141744.g5EHiOT7000374@localhost.twcny.rr.com> [Let's keep the discussions separate for the two lists. This message is going to only dragaera.] Matthew Hunter wrote on Fri, 14 Jun 2002 02:57:02 > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2002, Thomas Yan wrote: > > I want simple rules, too. "Must protect if newer than months" > > strike *me* as more complicated than "always protect" :) > > Tell you what. > > Can you define criteria under which an on-topic message would NOT > deserve spoiler protection? -snip- Yes, but I consider that a distraction. Let's pretend I can't. > If you can't, then lets put a warning *prominently* in the list > rules that spoilers are rampant and if you have not read > everything available, beware... Well, how do other people feel about this approach, especially if you're one of the ones who haven't read all the books you intend to? This seems to me like a great way to scare people off. > because we'll be > spoiler-protecting every message anyway and we might as well be > efficient about it. Please explain why a simple "Rampant spoilers for everything Brustian" warning is significantly inefficient? - tky From monty at montykins.com Fri Jun 14 10:55:41 2002 From: monty at montykins.com (Monty Ashley) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 10:55:41 -0700 Subject: Devera [was: protection] References: <42.28a13d51.2a3abc65@aol.com> <200206141721.g5EHLMSF000366@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <001101c213cc$b30328a0$6510010a@wotc.wizards.com> > Spoilers for all Vlad books published thru Issola, plus Brokedown > Palace, and, to muddy the waters, maybe --or maybe not-- some > unattributed spoilers from Steve himself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you can take her appearing in non-Dragaeran books > as either (a) something to handwave away by the fact that she's a god, > or (b) evidence that she can manifest in all sorts of places, > i.e. evidence that she is a god. I vote for b). While she's a child, she spends her time either hanging around Verra's palace or randomly traveling through dimensions and time. Eventually, it seems like she'll grow up, and I would think she'd have even more power then. If not an actual god, certainly close enough for most purposes. -Monty From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Jun 14 11:32:05 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:32:05 -0500 Subject: *Dragaera* Spoiler protection In-Reply-To: <200206141744.g5EHiOT7000374@localhost.twcny.rr.com> References: <20020614075701.GA481@infodancer.org> <200206141744.g5EHiOT7000374@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <20020614183205.GB4220@infodancer.org> On Fri, Jun 14, 2002 at 01:44:24PM -0400, Thomas Yan wrote: > Matthew Hunter wrote on Fri, 14 Jun 2002 02:57:02 > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2002, Thomas Yan wrote: > > If you can't, then lets put a warning *prominently* in the list > > rules that spoilers are rampant and if you have not read > > everything available, beware... > Well, how do other people feel about this approach, especially if > you're one of the ones who haven't read all the books you intend to? I think we're both interested in the answer to this. > This seems to me like a great way to scare people off. How is this different than putting spoiler warnings into every message? > > because we'll be > > spoiler-protecting every message anyway and we might as well be > > efficient about it. > Please explain why a simple "Rampant spoilers for everything Brustian" > warning is significantly inefficient? Look at the amount of traffic we can generate when discussions are running. Are you seriously arguing that typing a spoiler warning into every message -- of which there are already nearly 300, in a week or so -- is NOT significantly less efficient than a single warning? -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From singram at videotron.ca Fri Jun 14 13:03:54 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 16:03:54 -0400 Subject: Devera [was: protection] References: <42.28a13d51.2a3abc65@aol.com> <200206141721.g5EHLMSF000366@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <003a01c213de$9c380660$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Yan" To: Sent: Friday, June 14, 2002 1:21 PM Subject: Devera [was: protection] > At the big battle at the end of Issola, she's the dragon who seemed to > recognize Vlad and who looked vaguely familiar to him, and had > familiar manners. Whahuh? I'm going to need some more proof on that one. I assumed it was the incarnation of one of Vlad's ultimate siblings, or perhaps the dragon he met on the paths. -Scott Ingram From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Jun 14 13:47:18 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 16:47:18 -0400 Subject: [Poll] What haven't you read? Message-ID: <4EFDB4BD.046B2C63.00048EA6@aol.com> Now that we've heard all the arguments for and against spoiler protection, let's see if anyone actually needs it. The following is a list of all of the Brust stories that I know of. [Novels] Agyar Athyra Book of Jhereg (omnibus of Jhereg, Yendi, Teckla) Book of Taltos (omnibus of Taltos, Phoenix) Brokedown Palace Cowboy Feng's Space Bar and Grill Dragon Five Hundred Years After Freedom and Neccessity (with Emma Bull) Gyspy (with Megan Lindholm [aka Robin Hobb]) Issola Jhereg Orca Phoenix The Phoenix Guards The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars Taltos Teckla To Reign in Hell Yendi [Short stories] An Act of Contrition An Act of Love (with Gregory Frost and Megan Lindholm) An Act of Mercy (with Megan Lindholm) An Act of Trust Attention Shoppers Calling Pittsburg A Dream of Passion Drift A Hot Night at Cheeky's Valosag and Elet When the Bough Breaks For myself, I bounced off of Agyar, TRiH, and F&N but have read everything else. And I've already had Agyar's secret spoiled, so there isn't anything major left to spoil for me. I intend to spoiler protect the Greater Revelation of Orca regardless of what anyone else thinks, since that is the one thing that *I* would have been upset had it been spoiled. --KG From rone at ennui.org Fri Jun 14 13:52:20 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (figmentality) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:52:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Devera [was: protection] In-Reply-To: <003a01c213de$9c380660$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: <20020614205221.0C3B726E29@boredom.ennui.org> ***SPOILER*** Scott Ingram writes: From: "Thomas Yan" > At the big battle at the end of Issola, she's the dragon who seemed to > recognize Vlad and who looked vaguely familiar to him, and had > familiar manners. Whahuh? I'm going to need some more proof on that one. I assumed it was the incarnation of one of Vlad's ultimate siblings, or perhaps the dragon he met on the paths. Monty Ashley, the man behind the Devera FAQ, theorized it was Devera, and Steven confirmed this on rasfw. rone -- Constancy of the speed of light is a conclusion, yes it is a conclusion based on nonconvincing, irrational assumptions. WHAT IS LIGHT?! Whose light? From what sourse? Please do not mention electronagnetics - the same applies to them. - Alexander Abian From monty at montykins.com Fri Jun 14 14:15:50 2002 From: monty at montykins.com (Monty Ashley) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 14:15:50 -0700 Subject: Devera [was: protection] References: <20020614205221.0C3B726E29@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <000901c213e8$a9123b80$6510010a@wotc.wizards.com> > ***SPOILER*** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Monty Ashley, the man behind the Devera FAQ, theorized it was Devera, > and Steven confirmed this on rasfw. It was mostly because Sethra seems surprised that Aliera doesn't recognize the dragon and refers to the dragon as a female. -Monty From akomins at midway.uchicago.edu Fri Jun 14 14:26:04 2002 From: akomins at midway.uchicago.edu (Arin Komins) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 16:26:04 -0500 (CDT) Subject: How did you discover ... ? In-Reply-To: <200206132243.g5DMhJw3000718@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, Thomas Yan wrote: :Subject: How did you discover ... ? : :I'm curious. How did you discover Steve's books, and how did you :learn of this mailing list? : Like others, I learned of the list via DDB's post to rasfw. First found Steve's stuff with To Reign in Hell (which is still my favorite book involving the Fall.) Then I found Jhereg, and that was the end of it for me. I initially thought Jhereg was a Zelazny homage, and adored it for that. (Plus they are some of my favorite books for rereading. I love Vlad and his attitude towards his life ;-) Since then, I've been on a completist kick, and have everything save for the nonLiavek short stories I think. Arin -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Arin Komins akomins at uchicago.edu Manager of Web Systems Architecture University of Chicago/NSIT tel: (773)834-4087 1155 E. 60th St. #302B Chicago, IL 60637 fax: (773)702-0559 ------------------------------------------------------------------ From den at monger.net Fri Jun 14 14:39:55 2002 From: den at monger.net (den at monger.net) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 14:39:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How did you discover ... ? In-Reply-To: References: <200206132243.g5DMhJw3000718@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <3010.24.147.20.71.1024090795.squirrel@monger.net> I bought _Cowboy Feng's Space Bar and Grille_ back in the giddy days when I would still buy books because, "it looks cool." It did look cool, and it was cool. Then the brother of a friend suggested I pick up the Vlad books, and I did, one at a time over the course of 1990 (Phoenix having just come out when I finished). And here I am, twelve years later, on a mailing list that I saw an ad for in rasfw. -Dennis From Raellew at aol.com Fri Jun 14 14:48:33 2002 From: Raellew at aol.com (Raellew at aol.com) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:48:33 EDT Subject: [Poll] What haven't you read? Message-ID: <105.1736321c.2a3bbeb1@aol.com> I haven't read _Brokedown Palace_, _Cowboy Feng's Space Bar and Grill_, _Gypsy_, or any of the short stories except _A Dream of Passion_. In a message dated 6/14/02, Gaertk at aol.com writes: >I intend to spoiler protect the Greater Revelation of Orca >regardless of what anyone else thinks, since that is the >one thing that *I* would have been upset had it been >spoiled. I don't normally mind spoilers, but having _Orca_ spoiled would definitely have put me in a bad mood. As it was I thought the Great Revelation was pulled out of a hat (sorry, Steve) until I reread _Orca_ and the others and realized that yes, indeed, there were clues. Rae From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jun 14 15:26:57 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 18:26:57 EDT Subject: [Poll] What haven't you read? Message-ID: <25.2912b694.2a3bc7b1@aol.com> I have NOT read the following: > Freedom and Neccessity (with Emma Bull) > Gyspy (with Megan Lindholm [aka Robin Hobb]) > The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars > > [Short stories] > An Act of Contrition > An Act of Love (with Gregory Frost and Megan Lindholm) > An Act of Mercy (with Megan Lindholm) > An Act of Trust > Attention Shoppers > Calling Pittsburg > Drift > A Hot Night at Cheeky's > Valosag and Elet > When the Bough Breaks And I'm ticked off, because I didn't know about the short stories (with the sole exception of DoP) and have no idea where to go and find them! ARGH!! Point me in the right direction! Stacy From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jun 14 15:28:56 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 18:28:56 EDT Subject: Devera [was: protection] Message-ID: <44.2156b3d7.2a3bc828@aol.com> SPOILER BELOW In a message dated 6/14/2002 2:54:00 PM Mountain Daylight Time, rone at ennui.org writes: > Monty Ashley, the man behind the Devera FAQ, theorized it was Devera, > and Steven confirmed this on rasfw. > I've never heard this, either. Can someone post his theory and proof so we can catch up? Stacy From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Jun 14 15:48:47 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 14 Jun 2002 17:48:47 -0500 Subject: [Poll] What haven't you read? In-Reply-To: <4EFDB4BD.046B2C63.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <4EFDB4BD.046B2C63.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: Gaertk at aol.com writes: > Now that we've heard all the arguments for and against > spoiler protection, let's see if anyone actually needs it. This can't be conclusive; new people are still joining the list, and I hope continue to do so for years. Some people *definitely* need it. The fact that the early books are still in print shows that people are still buying them, which means mostly they haven't read them but are starting to. > I intend to spoiler protect the Greater Revelation of Orca > regardless of what anyone else thinks, since that is the > one thing that *I* would have been upset had it been > spoiled. I suspect that there are a *few* things that are *both* surprises *and* have far-reaching importance that people will regret having spoiled, whatever policy we adopt. I think that the policy we adopt should try to protect those things, and distinguish them from "moderate" spoilers which, frankly, on a list devoted to the works of one author, are so ubiquitous that it would be remarkably annoying to label each and every one. But things like... s - p - o - i - l - e - r - s - - c - o - m - i - n - g - ...Sethra and Kiera being the same person, or Lady Teldra becoming part of a Great Weapon that Vlad gets to keep, or whatever Spellbreaker really is (which we probably don't know yet), would be a shame to spoil for people. On the other hand, I'm not so clear on Vlad having Aliera's brother's soul. It's a surprise, but it hasn't had much in the way of consequences yet. It's not the "point" of the book it's revealed in, to my eyes, despite it's positioning. And any policy allowing any leeway at all is an invitation to endless discussions about classification of things, which I don't think would be that much fun really. This is *very* clearly one of those issues where there are a few moderately unsatisfactory solutions, a few disastrous solutions, and no clearly good solutions around (at least nobody has exhibited a good one yet to my taste). -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dragaera at juima.org Fri Jun 14 15:41:14 2002 From: dragaera at juima.org (Sander) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 00:41:14 +0200 Subject: [Poll] What haven't you read? References: <4EFDB4BD.046B2C63.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D0A710A.9090309@juima.org> I have NOT read the following: > Agyar > Brokedown Palace > Cowboy Feng's Space Bar and Grill > Freedom and Neccessity (with Emma Bull) > Gyspy (with Megan Lindholm [aka Robin Hobb]) > Issola > Phoenix > The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars > To Reign in Hell > > [Short stories] > An Act of Contrition > An Act of Love (with Gregory Frost and Megan Lindholm) > An Act of Mercy (with Megan Lindholm) > An Act of Trust > Attention Shoppers > Calling Pittsburg > Drift > A Hot Night at Cheeky's > Valosag and Elet > When the Bough Breaks Gah! That list is far too long. :( I hope to rectify the situation soon though; when in the USA this vacation I should at least be able to pick up a few more books (which are next to impossible to get my hands on here in the Netherlands). May you always find shade and water, Sander From mss2 at attbi.com Fri Jun 14 15:43:40 2002 From: mss2 at attbi.com (Michael S. Schiffer) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:43:40 -0500 Subject: Devera [was: protection] In-Reply-To: <44.2156b3d7.2a3bc828@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020614173641.02c1fa08@mail.attbi.com> At 06:28 PM 6/14/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: Spoilers for _Issola_ >In a message dated 6/14/2002 2:54:00 PM Mountain Daylight Time, >rone at ennui.org writes: > > > > Monty Ashley, the man behind the Devera FAQ, theorized it was Devera, > > and Steven confirmed this on rasfw. >I've never heard this, either. Can someone post his theory and proof so we >can catch up? The Devera FAQ, with Monty's evidence, is available at . For _Issola_, it has the following listed as a Devera appearance: *** [P]age 230. [start quote] We all stopped and looked, and discovered that we were, in fact, not the only ones moving directly at the Jenoine: the dragon was, too. "Well, that is hardly surprising," said Sethra. "Who is it?" asked Aliera. "You don't know?" "No, should I?" "Yes." "Well then, who--" "Not now," said Sethra. She frowned, and finally said, "Very well. Leave her alone, we'll adjust. page 235: The dragon, for no reason that I could see, stopped as if it had struck a wall, rolled over -- something that big does a lot of rolling over when it rolls -- and then came to its feet once more, and shook its head in a very human gesture. page 236: Then Aliera went flying backward, tumbling backward like a seed bag without the seed, landing next to the dragon. I thought she was dead, or at least injured, but she put her hand on the dragon's head, and, using it like a handhold, rose to her feet at once, shook her head in a gesture terribly reminiscent of the dragon's, then turned back toward the battle. [end quote] *** The authorial confirmation, "Monty wins the bannana." (sic :-) ), is at: Mike From moodygrrl at earthlink.net Fri Jun 14 15:55:18 2002 From: moodygrrl at earthlink.net (Lori Reeder) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:55:18 -0500 Subject: [Poll] What haven't you read? References: <4EFDB4BD.046B2C63.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <006c01c213f6$a1e86600$711fc343@moodygrrl> Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > The following is a list of all of the Brust stories that I > know of. > I have not read... > [Novels] > Freedom and Neccessity (with Emma Bull) > > [Short stories] > An Act of Love (with Gregory Frost and Megan Lindholm) > An Act of Mercy (with Megan Lindholm) > Attention Shoppers > Calling Pittsburg > Drift > Valosag and Elet > When the Bough Breaks > > I intend to spoiler protect the Greater Revelation of Orca > regardless of what anyone else thinks, since that is the > one thing that *I* would have been upset had it been > spoiled. > > --KG The above might be the best solution, if there's something you wouldn't feel right about posting without a spoiler warning then by all means do it, otherwise -- "1. Everything posted on the reading list is, by definition, spoilers." Sorry about the double post, the original came from the main list but it seemed to make sense to post it to the read-along list as well. Lori -------------------------------------------------------------------- "Books that you've bought and shelved, but not yet read emit a gentle, beneficial radiation, and when you finally do read them, they're almost old friends."--tnh From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Jun 14 15:59:11 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 18:59:11 -0400 Subject: [Poll] What haven't you read? Message-ID: <234CF457.3ABC102C.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Fri, 14 Jun 2002 ?6:27:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Starshadw at aol.com writes: [rearranging...] > And I'm ticked off, because I didn't know about the short > stories (with the sole exception of DoP) and have no idea > where to go and find them! ?ARGH!! ? That's because "Steven Brust, as he'll happily tell you, does not write short stories." [from Gaiman's intro to V&E]. > Point me in the right direction! >> An Act of Contrition >> An Act of Love (with Gregory Frost and Megan Lindholm) >> An Act of Mercy (with Megan Lindholm) >> An Act of Trust >> A Hot Night at Cheeky's The Liavek stories, found in the five volumes editted by Shetterly and Bull. Should be read in order. >> Attention Shoppers _Xanadu_ ed. Yolen >> Calling Pittsburg _Lord of the Fantastic: Stories in Honor of Roger Zelazny_ >> Drift _Space Opera_ ed McCaffrey and Scarborough (not to be confused with the other 6 books with that title). >> Valosag and Elet _Book of Dreams_ ed. Gaiman and someone else >> When the Bough Breaks _The Essential Bordertown_ ed. umm Windling? A good place to get info like this is ISFDB ( www.isfdb.org ) I also use Bookfinder ( www.bookfinder.com ) a lot to get bibliographic info since it covers far more titles, and not just SF. --KG From monty at montykins.com Fri Jun 14 16:09:29 2002 From: monty at montykins.com (Monty Ashley) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 16:09:29 -0700 Subject: Devera [was: protection] In-Reply-To: <44.2156b3d7.2a3bc828@aol.com> Message-ID: Starshadw writes: > SPOILER BELOW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've never heard this, either. Can someone post his theory and > proof so we can catch up? There are two Devera sightings in _Issola_. The first one, on page 50 (all pages are hardback) is pretty standard Devera: "a young girl who may have been human or Dragaeran and who I might or might not have recognized made impossible eye contact with me." But since Devera also serves a plot purpose in the Vlad books, when a cloud containing something sentient appears and Sethra first acts like Aliera should know who it is and then says (on page 230) "Very well. Leave her alone, we'll adjust," I get suspicious. And then on pages 235 and 236, the dragon and Aliera shake their heads in a very similar way, suggesting that they're related. And since Verra is already in the scene, it seems logical that this thing which: 1) is female 2) is powerful enough to make Sethra decide not to deal with it right now 3) has an interest in Aliera 4) acts in some ways similar to Aliera ... would be Aliera's daughter Devera. That was what convinced me. Then Mr. Brust was asked on Usenet and confirmed it, but that's sort of cheating. Incidentally, now that Devera has been brought up, I've never been terribly convinced by the sightings listed for _Gypsy_ or _Agyar_. If anyone has any alternate suggestions, I'd like to hear them. -Monty From dan-tain_ishanti at attbi.com Fri Jun 14 18:18:02 2002 From: dan-tain_ishanti at attbi.com (Brad Crawford) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 18:18:02 -0700 Subject: How did you discover ... ? References: <00c501c2135e$2cd2eef0$aab6c343@moodygrrl> <200206141725.g5EHPNhF000369@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <009c01c2140a$7f1b01a0$8fd47e18@we.client2.attbi.com> I stumbled onto Jhereg soon after it's initial publication. I don't remember if it was actually me who found it (I think it was though) or someone else in my D&D group (at that point about 14 strong - those were crazy games). I think I've read everything else within a week of publication. For the last ten years I have been a employee, then manager, at a bookstore so I can keep up with what comes in. Brad From dan-tain_ishanti at attbi.com Fri Jun 14 18:26:22 2002 From: dan-tain_ishanti at attbi.com (Brad Crawford) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 18:26:22 -0700 Subject: [Poll] What haven't you read? References: <4EFDB4BD.046B2C63.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <00a801c2140b$a917cbe0$8fd47e18@we.client2.attbi.com> I didn't finish Agyar (though I plan on giving it another try some day), And I don't think I have read any/many of the short stories. I am surprised that I seem to be in the minority in regards to TRiH. I love it. Of all of Steve's books this is the one I have reread the most. I would like to get my hands on a hardcover copy, but I'm not about to spend huge amounts of money for it. Brad From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Jun 14 18:31:43 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 21:31:43 -0400 Subject: [Poll] What haven't you read? In-Reply-To: <00a801c2140b$a917cbe0$8fd47e18@we.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: On Friday, June 14, 2002, at 09:26 PM, Brad Crawford wrote: > > I didn't finish Agyar (though I plan on giving it another try some > day), And > I don't think I have read any/many of the short stories. > > I am surprised that I seem to be in the minority in regards to TRiH. I > love > it. Of all of Steve's books this is the one I have reread the most. I > would > like to get my hands on a hardcover copy, but I'm not about to spend > huge > amounts of money for it. > > Brad > > You are not alone. I liked it as well. Very ambitious novel. But I must agree it's not for everyone. ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info From tyan at twcny.rr.com Fri Jun 14 18:55:51 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 21:55:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Poll] What haven't you read? In-Reply-To: <4EFDB4BD.046B2C63.00048EA6@aol.com> (Gaertk@aol.com) References: <4EFDB4BD.046B2C63.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <200206150155.g5F1tpOU000721@localhost.twcny.rr.com> These are the ones I have not yet read. > [Novels] > Freedom and Neccessity (with Emma Bull) > Gyspy (with Megan Lindholm [aka Robin Hobb]) > > [Short stories] > Calling Pittsburg > Drift > A Hot Night at Cheeky's > Valosag and Elet > When the Bough Breaks Gaertk at aol.com wrote on Fri, 14 Jun 2002 16:47:18 > For myself, I bounced off of Agyar, TRiH, and F&N but have > read everything else. And I've already had Agyar's secret > spoiled, so there isn't anything major left to spoil for > me. I also had Agyra spoiled before I read it. I think I probably would have figured it out reasonably quickly, but it would have been neat to have that brief period of confusion/uncertainty. - tky From tyan at twcny.rr.com Fri Jun 14 19:43:50 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 22:43:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: *Dragaera* Spoiler protection In-Reply-To: <20020614183205.GB4220@infodancer.org> (message from Matthew Hunter on Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:32:05 -0500) References: <20020614183205.GB4220@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <200206150243.g5F2hoWb000726@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Matthew Hunter wrote on Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:32:05 > On Fri, Jun 14, 2002, Thomas Yan wrote: > > Matthew Hunter wrote on Fri, 14 Jun 2002 02:57:02 > > > [...] lets put a warning *prominently* in the list > > > rules that spoilers are rampant and if you have not read > > > everything available, beware... > > > This seems to me like a great way to scare people off. > > How is this different than putting spoiler warnings into every > message? Here's a little table of how the trade-offs of these 2 alternatives look to me. [Please view in a fixed width font, e.g. Courier New.] If a reader is If a poster doesn't want worried about spoilers to add spoilers. -------------------------------------------------------------- | Spoiler protection is | Don't worry, be happy. | Protection | not required, so you probably | | is *not* | shouldn't join: Steve has done | | required | a great job of foreshadowing, | | | so spoilers are likely to | | | spring up even in previously | | | safe-for-you discussions. | | -------------------------------------------------------------- | Spoilers are supposed to be | Please make sure a post | Protection | protected, so you should be | has adequate protection, | *is* | able to avoid most by paying | e.g. at least a broad | required | heed to the warnings. | spectrum warning. | -------------------------------------------------------------- > > Please explain why a simple "Rampant spoilers for everything Brustian" > > warning is significantly inefficient? > > Look at the amount of traffic we can generate when discussions > are running. Are you seriously arguing that typing a spoiler > warning into every message -- of which there are already nearly > 300, in a week or so -- is NOT significantly less efficient than > a single warning? Do you retype in quoted text? I don't. So since I expect most posts in a discussion to be replies, I expect most posts to automagically inherit *some* protection without any extra work. Sure, protection will need broadening now and then, but I expect that to be unneeded most of the time. - tky From tyan at twcny.rr.com Fri Jun 14 20:24:49 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 23:24:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Devera [was: protection] In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020614123149.02acf520@mail.attbi.com> (mss2@attbi.com) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020614123149.02acf520@mail.attbi.com> Message-ID: <200206150324.g5F3OnXp000747@localhost.twcny.rr.com> *** Spoilers *** for Issola > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Michael S. Schiffer" wrote on Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:38:12 > At 01:21 PM 6/14/2002 -0400, Thomas Yan wrote: > >She's a god. [...] ([...] Interesting that it skipped a generation.) > > Do we know that it did? IIRC, Sethra mentioned in _Issola_ that she'd been > offered godhood. That implies that Aliera might be able to take up godhood > at some point in the future. [...] Agreed. Tangent: That reminds me. There's an interesting list on pp226-227. Barlen and "other Lords of Judgment appeared". There's a list of beings, ending with "even a dragon which {'should' be 'that' :)} [...] seemed [...] as if it knew me [but] didn't seem like [the "one from the Paths of the Dead"]". I guess "even" means (Vlad thinks) "in addition to the LoJs, there was also a dragon, who is not a LoJ" -- indeed, on p247, the LoJs and the dragon are listed separately. Damn. I *like* the idea of Devera as a Lord of Judgment. I suppose she still could become one. Aside: Let us all bow down and worship Tor: Hardcover and mass market paperbacks generally (always?) are identical, which makes citing pages ever so much more useful! "Monty Ashley" wrote on Fri, 14 Jun 2002 16:09:29 -snip- > But since Devera also serves a plot purpose in the Vlad books, when a cloud > containing something sentient appears and Sethra first acts like Aliera > should know who it is and then says (on page 230) "Very well. Leave her > alone, we'll adjust," I get suspicious. -snip rest of cool analysis- Nitpick: Sethra acts like Aliera should know who the *dragon*, not the *cloud*, is (p230). So, are there indications that the cloud, which manifests at the same time as the dragon, is also Devera? pp233-234. "tremendous flash of light"; Loiosh thinks it was "Something from that guy overhead". "{Vlad} Did it accomplish anything?" "{Loiosh} I don't know. But one of them is down." The dragon was savaging the downed Jenoine, so perhaps the dragon and cloud coordinated an attack. (Makes me think of fugue states in Zelazny's _Creatures of Light and Darkness_.) Hm. Why don't (more) gods do the simultaneous manifestation trick in that battle? Does it require too much concentration to be safe when facing Jenoine? Or did they do it, but Vlad didn't realize / notice? p236. Although the dragon rushes to Aliera's aid, "mouth open {in menace?}", cloud-guy-overhead was not (especially) evident in this fight, which mildly suggests to me that the cloud is not Devera. - tky From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jun 14 20:35:18 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 23:35:18 EDT Subject: Devera Message-ID: SPOILERS IN GENERAL and ISSOLA In a message dated 6/14/2002 9:23:31 PM Mountain Daylight Time, tyan at twcny.rr.com writes: > Damn. I *like* the idea of Devera as a Lord of Judgment. I suppose she > still could become one. I find it interesting that it's always assumed Devera will "grow up." Perhaps she won't - perhaps the form she is in now is her eternal form. > p236. Although the dragon rushes to Aliera's aid, "mouth open {in > menace?}", cloud-guy-overhead was not (especially) evident in this > fight, which mildly suggests to me that the cloud is not Devera. Perhaps cloud-guy is another form of Daddy? Because I think Daddy has to be a god in order for Devera to be so powerful. If Aliera had the kind of power Devera does....... -shudders- So I'm thinking that in order for Devera to be what she is, Aliera's somewhat diluted "god-blood" got a boost by another god. Who has definitively been removed from the list of possible fathers? Stacy From singram at videotron.ca Fri Jun 14 20:57:07 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 23:57:07 -0400 Subject: Devera [was: protection] References: <42.28a13d51.2a3abc65@aol.com> <200206141721.g5EHLMSF000366@localhost.twcny.rr.com> <001101c213cc$b30328a0$6510010a@wotc.wizards.com> Message-ID: <00d501c21420$b823d420$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Monty Ashley" To: Sent: Friday, June 14, 2002 1:55 PM Subject: Re: Devera [was: protection] > > Spoilers for all Vlad books published thru Issola, plus Brokedown > > Palace, and, to muddy the waters, maybe --or maybe not-- some > > unattributed spoilers from Steve himself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you can take her appearing in non-Dragaeran books > > as either (a) something to handwave away by the fact that she's a god, > > or (b) evidence that she can manifest in all sorts of places, > > i.e. evidence that she is a god. > > I vote for b). While she's a child, she spends her time either hanging > around Verra's palace or randomly traveling through dimensions and time. > Eventually, it seems like she'll grow up, and I would think she'd have even > more power then. If not an actual god, certainly close enough for most > purposes. I'm not certain that she'd have even more power after being born. As in all children, her 'potential' is probably much greater than the 'actualized' adult she'd grow into. My apologies for clipping out the spoiler protection in my previous post. I realized what I'd done about 3 seconds after clicking on 'send'. From goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU Sat Jun 15 01:46:46 2002 From: goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (David Goldfarb) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 01:46:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: To Reign in Hell [was: How did you discover] Message-ID: <200206150846.g5F8kkY22184@apocalypse.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) >David Goldfarb wrote on Fri, 14 Jun 2002 00:02:17 >> I especially disliked how you could tell which >> side a given character would end up on by their name.) > >That was true for about a handful of characters, but I guess for the >rest "ignorance is bliss": The names weren't familiar and didn't >strike me as obviously belonging to one side or the other... > >...Oh. Wait. > >*** (potential) Spoilers for To Reign in Hell *** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >How did you know Abdiel's side from his name? Was it the "iel" suffix >-- did all such characters have the same allegiance? Just so. The "-el" suffix derives from the Hebrew for "God" and in angelology is on the end of just about all the angel names. So, any character with a name ending in "-el" I knew would end up on Yahweh's side (frex: Abdiel, Uriel, Raphael) and any who didn't (Asmodai, Mepistopheles, Lilith, Harut) would end up aligned with Satan. It worked for the pair of "grunt" angels, Kyriel and Sith. In the original Hebrew, as well, "Satan" meant something like "Adversary" and was more a job title or description than a proper name. Having it used as a proper name all through the book grated. -- David Goldfarb <*>|"Feeling smug about one's opinions is the very goldfarb at ocf.berkeley.edu | lifeblood of the Net." goldfarb at csua.berkeley.edu | -- Dawn Friedman From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Sat Jun 15 01:52:54 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 03:52:54 -0500 Subject: Devera [was: protection] References: <42.28a13d51.2a3abc65@aol.com> <200206141721.g5EHLMSF000366@localhost.twcny.rr.com> <001101c213cc$b30328a0$6510010a@wotc.wizards.com> <00d501c21420$b823d420$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: Scott Ingram wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Monty Ashley" > To: > Sent: Friday, June 14, 2002 1:55 PM > Subject: Re: Devera [was: protection] > > >>> Spoilers for all Vlad books published thru Issola, plus Brokedown >>> Palace, and, to muddy the waters, maybe --or maybe not-- some >>> unattributed spoilers from Steve himself. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> So you can take her appearing in non-Dragaeran books >>> as either (a) something to handwave away by the fact that she's a >>> god, or (b) evidence that she can manifest in all sorts of places, >>> i.e. evidence that she is a god. >> >> I vote for b). While she's a child, she spends her time either >> hanging around Verra's palace or randomly traveling through >> dimensions and time. Eventually, it seems like she'll grow up, and I >> would think she'd have even more power then. If not an actual god, >> certainly close enough for most purposes. > > I'm not certain that she'd have even more power after being born. As > in all children, her 'potential' is probably much greater than the > 'actualized' adult she'd grow into. > > My apologies for clipping out the spoiler protection in my previous > post. I realized what I'd done about 3 seconds after clicking on > 'send'. I have a wild ass theory at this point about Devera. So there is pretty large stuggle between several groups; Jenoine, Seroli, Dragaerans, Verrra (whom is or is not actually aligned with the Gods), the Gods and Fernarians. Let up recap what limited Knowledge we know (I'm bound to screw something up here) The Seroli were on Dragaera first that was thier natural place then the Jenoine brought the Fernarians (human species x) and did some experiments and produced human species B or as they like to call themselves Dragaerans The Dragaerans kick the Jenoine out and then somehow the gods either existed before now or decided to pop up around this time but it's all real relative seeing as Verra is considered a Goddess dubbed the Demon Goddess the demon part is either important or desigend to screw with us either way we proabably don't know. Verra is from somewhere else I think it's mentioned she was a race that was enslaved to serve the Jenoine which is no doubt where we can determine why she has an issue with them which seems to be why she is at first glance to be though of as one of the Gods but you can't really believe a group of powerful beings all have the same motivations, they might have the same goal; killing the Jenoine or at least keeping them away from Dragaera and out of thier lives. But that doesn't mean she hasn't taken the Seroli 'an enemy of my enemy is my friend' attitude towards Dragaerans and the gods and essentialy Fernarians I would not be suprised to find out that fenarians are you terran class humans taken >from the crib so to speak and bred and brought to Dragaera What does this have to do with Devera you ask, I'll get to it let me cover some more ground first. Naw on second thought that could take forever, here is my conclusion: Devera is the offsrping or embodiment of Bolk (from Brokedown palace, the Taltos horse) and Verra. -Angelo 'it's okay to be wrong if you have fun doing it' Tripp-Russo From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Sat Jun 15 02:12:56 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 04:12:56 -0500 Subject: Devera [was: protection] Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gametech" To: Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 3:56 AM Subject: Re: Devera [was: protection] > Thomas Yan wrote: > > *** Spoilers *** for Issola > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Hm. Why don't (more) gods do the simultaneous manifestation trick in > > that battle? Does it require too much concentration to be safe when > > facing Jenoine? Or did they do it, but Vlad didn't realize / notice? > I would figure that you have only so much power and the more places at one time you are the more diluted your powers are for each manifestation of you hence 2 of me half as powerful still = one full me with less to worry about. From s.schwenk at wtal.de Sat Jun 15 02:21:41 2002 From: s.schwenk at wtal.de (Sebastian Schwenk) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 11:21:41 +0200 Subject: [Poll] What haven't you read? References: <4EFDB4BD.046B2C63.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <004b01c2144e$25b022a0$01c8c8c8@l5u8o3> In a message dated 6/14/02, Gaertk at aol.com writes: > Now that we've heard all the arguments for and against > spoiler protection, let's see if anyone actually needs it. > > The following is a list of all of the Brust stories that I > know of. I have READ: > [Novels] > Book of Jhereg (omnibus of Jhereg, Yendi, Teckla) > Book of Taltos (omnibus of Taltos, Phoenix) I think this way around it's better to keep my list reasonably short ^^; ~Sebastian From den at monger.net Sat Jun 15 06:01:34 2002 From: den at monger.net (Dennis Higbee) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 06:01:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Poll] What haven't you read? In-Reply-To: <004b01c2144e$25b022a0$01c8c8c8@l5u8o3> Message-ID: The only Steven Brust book I haven't read is _The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars_, as it is the only one I never bought in mmpb or hc or borrowed >from a library. Due to my intense dislike of large-size paperbacks. (Look! All the discomfort of a hardcover with none of the durability! And the flimsiness of a paperback with none of the convenience! Rapture!) I will undoubtedly break down at some point and buy it. As for the short stories, I've only read "A Dream of Passion" and one of the _Liavek_ stories. -Dennis From Raellew at aol.com Sat Jun 15 06:45:19 2002 From: Raellew at aol.com (Raellew at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 09:45:19 EDT Subject: Devera [was: protection] Message-ID: <173.9c33664.2a3c9eef@aol.com> *** Spoilers *** for Issola > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 6/14/02, tyan at twcny.rr.com writes: >There's an interesting list on pp226-227. Barlen and "other Lords of >Judgment appeared". There's a list of beings, ending with "even a >dragon which {'should' be 'that' :)} [...] seemed [...] as if it knew me >[but] didn't seem like [the "one from the Paths of the Dead"]". > >I guess "even" means (Vlad thinks) "in addition to the LoJs, there was >also a dragon, who is not a LoJ" -- indeed, on p247, the LoJs and the >dragon are listed separately. Damn. I *like* the idea of Devera as a >Lord of Judgment. I suppose she still could become one. Vlad, on p226, is describing the Lords of Judgment. There's: A burning stick a cat-centaur* a chunk of trellanstone with legs and spindly arms a walking prism a dragon There's no indication that any beings other than gods have appeared in that scene, and I don't see why Vlad, with all those strange shapes, would assume one of them *wasn't* a god. *Is the cat-centaur Kelchor? Vlad makes no mention in _Taltos_ of her looking like a cat-centaur, but she is their god, and if Devera can shapeshift, maybe Kelchor can too. In a message dated 6/14/02, tyan at twcny.rr.com writes: "Monty Ashley" wrote on Fri, 14 Jun 2002 16:09:29 >-snip- >> But since Devera also serves a plot purpose in the Vlad books, when a cloud >> containing something sentient appears and Sethra first acts like Aliera >> should know who it is and then says (on page 230) "Very well. Leave her >> alone, we'll adjust," I get suspicious. >-snip rest of cool analysis- > >Nitpick: Sethra acts like Aliera should know who the *dragon*, >not the *cloud*, is (p230). So, are there indications that the cloud, >which manifests at the same time as the dragon, is also Devera? I think the cloud is Adron. It could be another of the gods, though. p230 the cloud "appeared thick enough either to contain something sentient, or perhaps even to be something sentient, though if it was it was nothing I wanted to get to know personally." pp233-234 "there was a tremendous flash of light from directly overhead that left me seeing spots"; Loiosh says it came from "that guy overhead", and one of the Jenoine is down. p248: [begin quote] Sethra looked out over the Sea and said, "Adron is out there?" "Yes. I suspected he would be." "Conscious? Aware?" said Sethra. Aliera shrugged. I understood that shrug. "Consciousness" and "awareness" aren't always clear-cut concepts, as I had just learned." [end quote] Rae From lisa at spindot.com Sat Jun 15 08:32:13 2002 From: lisa at spindot.com (Lisa Grant Coffin) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 11:32:13 -0400 Subject: Devera [was: protection] Message-ID: <00af01c21481$d371c320$1401a8c0@Spencer> Gametech wrote: >>>> Spoilers for all Vlad books published thru Issola, plus Brokedown >>>> Palace, and, to muddy the waters, maybe --or maybe not-- some >>>> unattributed spoilers from Steve himself. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > > I have a wild ass theory at this point about Devera. > > Verra > is from somewhere else I think it's mentioned she was a race that was > enslaved to serve the Jenoine Weren't all Dragaerans, who were created by the Jenoine, initially slaves to them? And also, wasn't it mentioned in Issola that the gods are actually a combination of many different types of beings, some are even Jenoine who threw their lot in with the 'rebels' at the time of Kieron? >which is no doubt where we can > determine why she has an issue with them which seems to be why she is > at first glance to be though of as one of the Gods when someone hangs out in the Paths, sits with the gods, has Barlen for an enemy/lover, etc, i think it's *fairly* safe to assume she's a god.... she was certainly a goddess in Brokedown Palace. (Until she was ousted from Fenario) > Devera is the offsrping or embodiment of Bolk (from Brokedown palace, > the Taltos horse) and Verra. i suppose the fact that Bolk opposes Verra doesn't mean much, lol. And, possibly even the fact that Barlen is Verra's lover means even less. However, I have a theory-query of my own........how about that Aliera was pregnant when she was 'displaced' at Adron's disaster. By Mario, of course. This leads to interesting possibilities about Devera's birth and subsequent level of talents and abilities. lisa grant coffin From rachael at daedala.net Sat Jun 15 09:17:30 2002 From: rachael at daedala.net (Rachael Lininger) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 11:17:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Poll] What haven't you read? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jun 15, Dennis Higbee said: >The only Steven Brust book I haven't read is _The Sun, the Moon, and the >Stars_, as it is the only one I never bought in mmpb or hc or borrowed >from a library. Due to my intense dislike of large-size paperbacks. >(Look! All the discomfort of a hardcover with none of the durability! >And the flimsiness of a paperback with none of the convenience! >Rapture!) I will undoubtedly break down at some point and buy it. Contact dreamhavenbooks.com; they had the hardcovers still as of a month ago. With the Thomas Canty art. If they don't, Uncle Hugo's is a good bet. For some reason, lots of Steve's books can be found used in Minneapolis... Rachael -- Rachael From the Dilbert Newsletter: Lininger "You should talk to her. rachael@ She is a minefield of information." daedala.net From geewiz at mac.com Sat Jun 15 09:32:25 2002 From: geewiz at mac.com (Glenn Ellingson) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 09:32:25 -0700 Subject: The Demon Goddess (was Re: Devera [was: protection]) In-Reply-To: <00af01c21481$d371c320$1401a8c0@Spencer> Message-ID: <79B0D837-807D-11D6-94B1-003065C447F2@mac.com> There has been a bit of discussion around the Verra, but I havn't seen anyone come out and address the "demon goddess" part.... When I read BDP long ago I assumed that Verra was called the Demon Goddess because of her capricious nature. But having read all the Vlad books perhaps this "title" derives from the fact that Verra was once enslaved by the Jenoine? After all, we're told that the difference betweeen a god and a demon is that a demon can be controlled (if you dare to try...). But having once been a demon (who successfully rebelled against the Jenoine) she is now a god, sitting in the halls of judgement 'n all, no longer controlled and maybe not controllable? I also, having just gone back and re-read almost everything, don't really understand the *point* of BDP. I guess Fenario's worship of Verra had become stifling, so she had to go to allow the country to move on? But that seems a little shallow. I mean, killing a god so that a tiny postage-stamp "kingdom" can change its politics? It has to be deeper; otherwise why would Bolk untervene this way? But I don't get it, and I wonder if it will tie in further with the books that take place in the Dragaeran Empire. -- Glenn Ellingson From Starshadw at aol.com Sat Jun 15 09:36:28 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 12:36:28 EDT Subject: The Demon Goddess Message-ID: <147.1000977a.2a3cc70c@aol.com> VERRA SPOILERS In a message dated 6/15/2002 10:32:02 AM Mountain Daylight Time, geewiz at mac.com writes: > When I read BDP long ago I assumed that Verra was called the Demon Goddess > because of her capricious nature. But having read all the Vlad books > perhaps this "title" derives from the fact that Verra was once enslaved by > the Jenoine? After all, we're told that the difference betweeen a god and > a demon is that a demon can be controlled (if you dare to try...). But > having once been a demon (who successfully rebelled against the Jenoine) > she is now a god, sitting in the halls of judgement 'n all, no longer > controlled and maybe not controllable? > Or perhaps it is meant literally - as in demons worship her (as well as others)? Demon Goddess could very well = Goddess of Demons which kinda makes sense because of her enslaved past. Mayhaps demons pray to her to be released from their bondage/slavery. Stacy From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Sat Jun 15 10:27:27 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 12:27:27 -0500 Subject: Cracks and Shards! Message-ID: <3D0B78FF.5D2D8649@attbi.com> Do y'all realize that almost *everything* that's been on the list has has spoiler space, unless it's been a discussion *of* spoiler space? Can we just discuss the books? If you haven't read the books, and can't stand it, then unsubscribe till you *have* read the books! Don't hang around here making everybody else scroll down through all this Verra-be-damned spoiler space every single message! Or, we could start a list for people who *haven't* read the books where they could talk in an unspoiled way about . . . well . . . ummm . . . Come on, guys. This is a drag. Mia From lisa at spindot.com Sat Jun 15 10:41:56 2002 From: lisa at spindot.com (Lisa Grant Coffin) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 13:41:56 -0400 Subject: Cracks and Shards! Message-ID: <001701c21493$f21adcf0$1401a8c0@Spencer> Mia McDavid wrote: > Do y'all realize that almost *everything* that's been on the list has > has spoiler space, unless it's been a discussion *of* spoiler space? > > Can we just discuss the books? If you haven't read the books, and > can't stand it, then unsubscribe till you *have* read the books! > Don't hang around here making everybody else scroll down through all > this Verra-be-damned spoiler space every single message! > > Or, we could start a list for people who *haven't* read the books > where they could talk in an unspoiled way about . . . well . . . ummm > . . . > > Come on, guys. This is a drag. not everyone has read *all* the books. several people have been lamenting, for instance, that they haven't been able to get hold of athyra. until the omnibus came out, i didn't have phoenix, although i was on waiting lists for it at several used bookstores for years. several people, just today, for instance, mentioned they hadn't yet read To Reign in Hell and lots of the other non-Empire books. i don't think it's all that big a deal to scroll down a bit to be polite. today I personally skipped a To Reign in Hell post because i've not yet read the book. the poster mentioned it was a spoiler. no big deal for him, quite kind to me. lisa grant coffin From goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU Sat Jun 15 10:54:29 2002 From: goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (David Goldfarb) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Devera [was: protection] Message-ID: <200206151754.g5FHsTx28077@apocalypse.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> From: "Lisa Grant Coffin" >I have a theory-query of my own........how about that Aliera was >pregnant when she was 'displaced' at Adron's disaster. By Mario, of course. >This leads to interesting possibilities about Devera's birth and subsequent >level of talents and abilities. Um, are you and others aware that Steve has in fact revealed who Devera's father is? It's in an interview at the Sequential Tart website -- For those of you who are impatient, I'll reveal it below -- after some spoiler protection.... S P O I L E R S B E L O W ! B I G H O N K I N ' S P O I L E R S ! Her father is Kieron the Conqueror(!) That's all the information given in the interview, but we can speculate that he came out of the Paths of the Dead when Aliera gave away his sword, as he promised/threatened in _Taltos_. Or maybe something even stranger happened. -- David Goldfarb <*>|"If I haven't killed you yet, I'll take care of goldfarb at ocf.berkeley.edu | it right away." goldfarb at csua.berkeley.edu | -- S. P. Somtow From lisa at spindot.com Sat Jun 15 11:02:07 2002 From: lisa at spindot.com (Lisa Grant Coffin) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 14:02:07 -0400 Subject: Devera [was: protection] References: <200206151754.g5FHsTx28077@apocalypse.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: <005a01c21496$c4652c90$1401a8c0@Spencer> David Goldfarb wrote: > From: "Lisa Grant Coffin" >> I have a theory-query of my own........> > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > S > > B > E > L > O > W > ! > > B > I > G > > H > O > N > K > I > N > ' > > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > S > ! >>how about that Aliera was >> pregnant when she was 'displaced' at Adron's disaster. By Mario, of >> course. This leads to interesting possibilities about Devera's birth >> and subsequent level of talents and abilities. > > Um, are you and others aware that Steve has in fact revealed who > Devera's father is? It's in an interview at the Sequential Tart > website -- > > Her father is Kieron the Conqueror(!) > > That's all the information given in the interview, but we can > speculate that he came out of the Paths of the Dead when Aliera gave > away his sword, as he promised/threatened in _Taltos_. > > Or maybe something even stranger happened. okay, if vlad has aliera's brother's soul, and aliera has kieron's other brothers soul, then it does make sense that devera calls vlad 'uncle' then. so perhaps aliera isn't mom, but merely 'auntie' .......although i suppose she could still be mom *and* auntie. eww. lol. anyone else? From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Sat Jun 15 11:21:11 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 11:21:11 -0700 Subject: How did you discover ... ? Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 06:43:19PM -0400, Thomas Yan wrote: > I'm curious. How did you discover Steve's books, and how did you > learn of this mailing list? A friend of mine got me into ice skating/hockey in Miami, FL of all places four or five years ago. We'd go skating every Saturday, and afterwards, we'd somehow end up in a bookstore. He'd make book recommendations, since he?d read much more than I had, and at one point, he suggested I read Jhereg. I picked it up and read it that night. Twice. Enough to say that it blew me away. I then bought the next few in the series, up to Taltos. I also developed the habit of obsessively rereading the books every time I read a new one, to put the past ones in perspective. To date, I have all of the Vlad series, including the last two in hardcover. What can I say? I?m a book junkie. If I had to choose between the latest Steven Brust book and food? hey, a person can go hungry for a while, right? Luckily, I graduated from BC last year, and despite being a German major, I got myself a job in IT, which translated to enough money to get everything else Steve?s put out, with the exception of the Gypsy, which will eventually be mine. As for the list, I found out about it yesterday. I was buying stuff on amazon, and I was wishing that Steve had something out there that was readily available and I hadn?t read, when I saw that the Paths of the Dead was coming out in November. I immediately went to the tor website to see if any sample chapters had been put up, and from there, I hit Steve?s website, found the link to the list, caught up on the archived messages, and signed up. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From Starshadw at aol.com Sat Jun 15 11:36:23 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 14:36:23 EDT Subject: Devera [was: protection] Message-ID: <68.2191d5db.2a3ce327@aol.com> SPOILERS FOR DEVERA'S FATHER In a message dated 6/15/2002 12:01:25 PM Mountain Daylight Time, goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU writes: > Kieron the Conqueror LMAO!!!! I KNEW it!! OMG, I actually guessed something right!!! And I'll bet you Kieron ends up as a LoJ (or at the very least, a god) as well. From zizban at adelphia.net Sat Jun 15 15:29:06 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 18:29:06 -0400 Subject: TPG Scheduling In-Reply-To: <7a.28635f05.2a3d18fc@aol.com> Message-ID: <4DEEB93A-80AF-11D6-BFEB-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Saturday, June 15, 2002, at 06:26 PM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/15/2002 12:52:30 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > nthuleen at students.wisc.edu writes: > > >> With that in mind, I'd suggest 3 chapters a week. >> June 17-23: The Phoenix Guards Preface & Chapters 1 & 2 >> June 24-30: TPG Chapters 3, 4, 5 >> July 1-7: TPG Chapters 6, 7, 8 >> (you get the idea) >> Sept 2-8: TPG Chapters 33, 34 & Conclusion & Epilogue >> Sept 9-15: Five Hundred Years After, Preface & Chapters 1 & 2 >> (still the same idea) >> Nov 25-Dec 1: FHYA Chapters 33, 34 & Conclusion >> > > This looks pretty darn spiffy to me - I think 3-5 chapters per week > should > give us time for discussion, etc. Although I (and many of us, if I'm to > judge) are fast readers and we blaze through books like nobody's > business, I > do think we need to to try and take those into consideration who many > not be > as fast and who would really like to participate but can't read as > fast. I > think the 3-5 chapters is a dandy "norm" for us to try out at least and > see > how it goes. > > If 99.9% of the participants are chafing at the bit, then maybe we can > up it > a little until we find "the G spot" so to speak. > > Stacy > > Stacy > Cool! Anybody else want to chime in? I'll give you until 3 hours then this will be the schedule. ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Sat Jun 15 15:49:58 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 17:49:58 -0500 Subject: Devera [was: protection] References: <200206151754.g5FHsTx28077@apocalypse.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: David Goldfarb wrote: > From: "Lisa Grant Coffin" >> I have a theory-query of my own........how about that Aliera was >> pregnant when she was 'displaced' at Adron's disaster. By Mario, of >> course. This leads to interesting possibilities about Devera's birth >> and subsequent level of talents and abilities. > > Um, are you and others aware that Steve has in fact revealed who > Devera's father is? It's in an interview at the Sequential Tart > website -- > > For those of you who are impatient, I'll reveal it below -- after some > spoiler protection.... > > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > S > > B > E > L > O > W > ! > > B > I > G > > H > O > N > K > I > N > ' > > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > S > ! > > Her father is Kieron the Conqueror(!) > > That's all the information given in the interview, but we can > speculate that he came out of the Paths of the Dead when Aliera gave > away his sword, as he promised/threatened in _Taltos_. > > Or maybe something even stranger happened. Like Kieron is Bolk :) See how my imagination can work even provided with 'facts' anyway it's more fun being wrong, though if I had to commit I'd say my theory is pretty much tromped but hey it_was_fun thinking of the implications it would mean heh, tks for the info. From dan-tain_ishanti at attbi.com Sun Jun 16 08:17:27 2002 From: dan-tain_ishanti at attbi.com (Brad Crawford) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 08:17:27 -0700 Subject: [ot] happy... References: <200206151754.g5FHsTx28077@apocalypse.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: <000f01c21548$ece5b1a0$8fd47e18@we.client2.attbi.com> Hey all, Happy Father's Day to Steve and all the rest of us fathers! Brad From tyan at twcny.rr.com Sun Jun 16 11:16:32 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 14:16:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Issola] Cute Message-ID: <200206161816.g5GIGWaR000401@localhost.twcny.rr.com> (I've been reread Cherryh's _Cyteen_, which, among other things, has characters who are very good at reading body language and controlling their own, in part because they do things like practice being cute by watching themselves in videos and in the mirror....) How well do the races in the Dragaeran novels understand and experience the concept of "cute"? *** Spoilers for Issola *** I guess we know very little about Serioli, and Vlad doesn't even understand their body language, so who knows how they stand with "cute". Easterners appear to be pretty much the same as we are now, so they grok it good, e.g. Vlad watching Loiosh and Rocza (p216). Given Dragaeran's lineage, it wouldn't be surprising if they had many of our hard-wired responses, e.g. "big head and big eyes on a small body = cute". But although Teldra uses the word cute (p155), and Morrolan and Aliera don't like being called cute (unlike Loish, "I *am* cute" :), it seems like cute for them is an intellectual concept, not an emotional response. So I don't know. The Jenoine seem rather unemotional. Sure, they are said to hate Verra and be jealous of the gods, but that seems to me like a cold passion, not a hot fire. So Telda saying the Jenoine think they (Vlad, Morrolan, Aliera, Teldra) are cute (p155), particularly strikes me as Jenoine regarding "cute" as an intellectual concept, not an emotional response. Plus, Teldra may have been translating a Jenoine concept into Dragaeran/Easterner terms, which is another further remove. Tangent: Hell, what would a Jenoine joke be -- assuming they have a sense of humor?! Hm. Since Vlad's got a narrow view of the world, it doesn't necessarily mean much, but I don't remember there being anything like psychologists... [1] [1] Vlad in De Niro's role in "Analyze This"? (I haven't seen the movie yet.) ... or maybe I do. Couldn't we say that Yendi practice applied guerilla psychology? Anyway, what I'm wondering is: Should Dragaerans send in various teams to probe/provoke Jenoine to learn more about how they think from observing their responses? Except that the Jenoine might learn much about Dragaerans by analyzing the provocations. Damn. Or maybe it would be a good thing: Is it a plus or a minus that the Jenoine and others don't understand each other? Sethra says, "They don't understand us, that's all [2]. They never have. [...] that's been their flaw from the beginning." p252. [2] _Cyteen_ has (temporarily) sensitized me to "that's all", since it shows up so much in that book. Thoughts? - tky From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Sun Jun 16 13:50:10 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 15:50:10 -0500 Subject: [ot] happy... References: <200206151754.g5FHsTx28077@apocalypse.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> <000f01c21548$ece5b1a0$8fd47e18@we.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: Brad Crawford wrote: > Hey all, > Happy Father's Day to Steve and all the rest of us fathers! > Brad Hurah, Happy fathers day all! Angelo 'noting witty today' Tripp-Russo From singram at videotron.ca Sun Jun 16 13:55:09 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 16:55:09 -0400 Subject: [Issola] Cute References: <200206161816.g5GIGWaR000401@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <001701c21578$1a3f9ab0$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Yan" To: Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 2:16 PM Subject: [Issola] Cute > (I've been reread Cherryh's _Cyteen_, which, among other things, has > characters who are very good at reading body language and controlling > their own, in part because they do things like practice being cute by > watching themselves in videos and in the mirror....) > > How well do the races in the Dragaeran novels understand and > experience the concept of "cute"? > > *** Spoilers for Issola *** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess we know very little about Serioli, and Vlad doesn't even > understand their body language, so who knows how they stand with > "cute". > > Easterners appear to be pretty much the same as we are now, so they > grok it good, e.g. Vlad watching Loiosh and Rocza (p216). > > Given Dragaeran's lineage, it wouldn't be surprising if they had many > of our hard-wired responses, e.g. "big head and big eyes on a small > body = cute". But although Teldra uses the word cute (p155), and > Morrolan and Aliera don't like being called cute (unlike Loish, "I > *am* cute" :), it seems like cute for them is an intellectual concept, > not an emotional response. So I don't know. I think you're reading too much into this. Morrolan wears black and is a big bad witch living in Castle Black; Aliera is ... well, she's an e'Kieron, both of them have devoted their lives to being antithetical to 'cute'. I think even to us cute is both an intellectual concept and an emotional resonse. Humans contrive to be 'cute' or its opposite all the time. > The Jenoine seem rather unemotional. Sure, they are said to hate > Verra and be jealous of the gods, but that seems to me like a cold > passion, not a hot fire. So Telda saying the Jenoine think they > (Vlad, Morrolan, Aliera, Teldra) are cute (p155), particularly strikes > me as Jenoine regarding "cute" as an intellectual concept, not an > emotional response. Plus, Teldra may have been translating a Jenoine > concept into Dragaeran/Easterner terms, which is another further remove. I don't see the Jenoine being 'jealous' of the gods. I see them more as laboratory researchers being frustrated because the mice won't come out of their cages. My cats sometimes refuse to come out from under the bed and while they look so stubborn and cute under there, they still make me feel frustrated. > Tangent: Hell, what would a Jenoine joke be -- assuming they have a > sense of humor?! Question: Why did the Jenoine cross the road? Answer: It didn't, it only looks that way. Question: How many Jenoine does it take to change a lightbulb? Answer: None or all, the light bulb was changed tomorrow. From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Sun Jun 16 14:16:16 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 16:16:16 -0500 Subject: [Issola] Cute References: <200206161816.g5GIGWaR000401@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: Thomas Yan wrote: > (I've been reread Cherryh's _Cyteen_, which, among other things, has > characters who are very good at reading body language and controlling > their own, in part because they do things like practice being cute by > watching themselves in videos and in the mirror....) > > How well do the races in the Dragaeran novels understand and > experience the concept of "cute"? > > *** Spoilers for Issola *** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hm. Since Vlad's got a narrow view of the world, it doesn't > necessarily mean much, but I don't remember there being anything like > psychologists... [1] I think that Physickers are who would preform any psycology at least I get that impression from a comment that Vlad made to Morrolan in Dragon page 25 "You are Perspicacious" "Yeah, but my physicker says it can be treated." "He means you're perceptive, boss." "I know that Loiosh." If physickers do deal with damage to the mind then they would in some part have a hand into what a psychologists does. You'd have to remember than when you are in a world where mind probes are something that exists the time spent with a subject talking to determine the problem would almost be wasted other than to help the subject see what the problem was, but again there is likely a better way to do that available to them on Dragaera. In the same stride I'd think that witchcraft might aid the Easterners in that realm however if there had to be something more similar to psychologists it's more liekly from the east. From singram at videotron.ca Sun Jun 16 15:45:41 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 18:45:41 -0400 Subject: [Issola] Cute References: <200206161816.g5GIGWaR000401@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <000d01c21587$8ab4fb00$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gametech" To: Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 5:16 PM Subject: Re: [Issola] Cute > Thomas Yan wrote: > > (I've been reread Cherryh's _Cyteen_, which, among other things, has > > characters who are very good at reading body language and controlling > > their own, in part because they do things like practice being cute by > > watching themselves in videos and in the mirror....) > > > > How well do the races in the Dragaeran novels understand and > > experience the concept of "cute"? > > > > *** Spoilers for Issola *** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hm. Since Vlad's got a narrow view of the world, it doesn't > > necessarily mean much, but I don't remember there being anything like > > psychologists... [1] > > > I think that Physickers are who would preform any psycology at least I get > that impression from a comment that Vlad made to Morrolan in Dragon page 25 > > "You are Perspicacious" > "Yeah, but my physicker says it can be treated." > "He means you're perceptive, boss." > "I know that Loiosh." I think Vlad was just *trying* to be funny, then was reassuring Loiosh that he really did know what perspicacious meant. Judging from the training Vlad's Teckla friend underwent (his name escapes me), physickers didn't do much in the way of psychology... other than telling stories to distract their patients. > In the same stride I'd think that witchcraft might aid the Easterners in > that realm however if there had to be something more similar to > psychologists it's more liekly from the east. Seeing how the Serioli language is used in sorcery (P.G., Tazendra enchanting flash stones), I'd say the Dragaerans aren't above borrowing the best from any culture. From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Sun Jun 16 18:07:00 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 20:07:00 -0500 Subject: Dragheran psychology References: <200206161816.g5GIGWaR000401@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <3D0D3634.5A8354B7@attbi.com> Well, the Phoenix Emperor had a counselor (I forget his title) who listened to him when he needed advice. Didn't talk much, just listened, but it helped the Emperor figure out the wise thing to do. It struck me as pretty much of a psychologist role. Of course, then he was no longer available, and the Emperor replaced him, and things got nasty . . . Mia From zizban at adelphia.net Sun Jun 16 18:17:43 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 21:17:43 -0400 Subject: Dragheran psychology In-Reply-To: <3D0D3634.5A8354B7@attbi.com> Message-ID: <060BE98C-8190-11D6-B191-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Sunday, June 16, 2002, at 09:07 PM, Mia McDavid wrote: > Well, the Phoenix Emperor had a counselor (I forget his title) who > listened to him when he needed advice. Didn't talk much, just listened, > but it helped the Emperor figure out the wise thing to do. It struck me > as pretty much of a psychologist role. Of course, then he was no longer > available, and the Emperor replaced him, and things got nasty . . . > > Mia > > Through out the ages, leaders had advisors they could vent to. leaders who didn't vent tended to fail and bad. ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info From FelixEisen at aol.com Sun Jun 16 22:25:58 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 01:25:58 EDT Subject: Cawti Message-ID: <112.131745db.2a3ecce6@aol.com> I realize it's been days since I last posted to the list (or managed to empty my inbox -- 550+ messages!! -- but I simply had three things to point out in regards to Cawti's personality, actions, etc. during 'Teckla' and 'Phoenix': 1) Cawti was no longer an 'active' assassin -- she suddenly retired, becoming a stay-at-home wife who practiced knife-throwing because she was bored out of her skull. The boredom of an intelligent individual is amazingly fertile ground for large ideas. Consequently ... 2) When exposed to a -very- coherent argument -- which has been noted online as effectively being communistic in flavor, but which I'll make a guess and say is Marxism -- one grasps the thing and runs with it. Nobody, but -nobody- on this list can say that Marxism/communism as a philosophy didn't have its share of friggin' geniuses; Marx is one, Trotsky another. Simply put, when a 'large idea' fell into her lap, and one which coincided with her own despite for the Empire and (sort of) Dragaerans, Cawti of course took up with it with a fervor that would have done any of the revolutionaries of 1917 proud. This, naturally, leads to ... 3) There's no fanatic like an intelligent fanatic. An intelligent fanatic does not 'fail to recognize' problems; they simply begin to work to see how to use the enemy's strengths against them. The group in South Adrilankha is, at the very least, a test-bed for Kelly and the rest; the Russian Empire was incredibly entrenched, the communists were outnumbered, outgunned, and generally outmaneuvered, but they had one thing -- the repressed peasantry. Kelly as well has a vast (what, 95%?) base of Teckla, people who do all the work -- and, like the revolutionaries in 1917, a potentially vast store of resentment for the nobility. Cawti knows exactly how to kill a man, so she knows the approaches an assassin would use. She has given her passion to a cause, and though there are other, erm, spoiler details for her these days, she still holds the potential to be one of the most influential people in Empire politics in the future. Or, rather, revolutionary politics. As a side note, and having read my Paarfi, I seem to recall 'social injustice' as being one of the 'Top 3' reasons Dragons have used to overthrow the House of Phoenix and turn the Cycle. I would not be shocked to read in the future that a continuing unrest in South Adrilankha (and other parts of the Empire, all using the same 'rallying cry') was the reason either for Zerika's resignation or Norathaar's seizure of the throne... Who knows, Norathaar might actually 'do some good' for the Easterners. She obviously has (or had) a soft spot for them ... Knightmarshall Felix Surnamed Eisen, or "Iron Felix" Hand of Morr, The Order of Bones From FelixEisen at aol.com Sun Jun 16 22:37:22 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 01:37:22 EDT Subject: Cawti, Marxism Message-ID: <1ac.3c77e2e.2a3ecf92@aol.com> Please note that I wrote that post BEFORE I saw Steve's commentary about 'Give me a week and I'll make a Marxist out of you.' Either he's a rat bastard, or I am. I'm voting for both. Knightmarshall Felix Surnamed Eisen, or "Iron Felix" Hand of Morr, The Order of Bones From FelixEisen at aol.com Sun Jun 16 22:45:53 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 01:45:53 EDT Subject: Night Owls Message-ID: <150.f76e1df.2a3ed191@aol.com> > > Hope Is Ole doesn't disappoint. > Yes, Steve moved to Las Vegas. Probably got sick of watching glaciers > cover his front yard every year -:) Well, son of a dzur. I just LEFT Las Vegas. If I'd known His Nibs had moved there, I'd've given serious consideration to not leaving. Okay, so that was a year ago ... Knightmarshall Felix Surnamed Eisen, or "Iron Felix" Hand of Morr, The Order of Bones From unitcancellation at hotmail.com Sun Jun 16 22:59:46 2002 From: unitcancellation at hotmail.com (Alex Nixon) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 02:59:46 -0300 Subject: Cawti Message-ID: I've always been partial to Engles. He's probably the Marxist/Communist that I can appreciate the most- intelligent, funny, and posessing the best (in my opinon) and most straight-forward writing style of all the Marxist/Communist/Trotsky Sympathisizers(save for Mr. Brust, of course). Alex Nixon PS A belated hello to everyone. It's a pleasure to read everyone's comments. ----Original Message Follows---- From: FelixEisen at aol.com Nobody, but -nobody- on this list can say that Marxism/communism as a philosophy didn't have its share of friggin' geniuses; Marx is one, Trotsky another. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From FelixEisen at aol.com Mon Jun 17 00:42:28 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 03:42:28 EDT Subject: Devera Message-ID: <29.28c004f8.2a3eece4@aol.com> Everyone keeps throwing out these theories of who Devera is. There's two ways of handling this, both of which are in relation to Steve: the 'author' way, or the 'interviewer' way. Everyone else has been doing it the 'interviewer' way, and while I immensely appreciate Steve's attitude towards Dragaera as being a place that even -he- doesn't know 3/4 of what's going on, it does sometimes amuse me in this sort of discussion, since Devera shows up in non-Dragaera books. 'Author'-wise, IMNSHO, Devera is simply his Muse. Which I appreciate even more than the previous; if I am right, then I am both delighted and honored to be so granted the opportunity to see an author's Muse. Knightmarshall Felix Surnamed Eisen, or "Iron Felix" Hand of Morr, The Order of Bones From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Mon Jun 17 05:11:44 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 05:11:44 -0700 Subject: Cawti Message-ID: Alex Nixon wrote: > > I've always been partial to Engles. He's probably the Marxist/Communist > that I can appreciate the most- intelligent, funny, and posessing the best > (in my opinon) and most straight-forward writing style of all the > Marxist/Communist/Trotsky Sympathisizers(save for Mr. Brust, of course). I think my broadest exposure to Engels was in Freedom and Necessity. I don't know Emma Bull enough to be able to say which author wrote what (and in fact, I think in F&N they were trying to create separate, independent voices for each character, but also create a cohesive whole in terms of tone, an endeavor in which I believe they succeeded), but the conversations with Engels seemed to me to allude to some of the ideas in Teckla and Phoenix. But of course, I could be mistaken? Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From scs at di.org Mon Jun 17 10:45:24 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 13:45:24 -0400 Subject: An apology -- if you get error msgs from me Message-ID: <20020617174524.GA10347@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> I had a mail process run wild, possible generating lots of bounce messages to folks that shouldn't have gotten them. The mail did get thru, but bogus alerts were generated. It should be all fixed by the time you see this, with the exception of any still in transit. -- "Every time I see [name deleted], I get the urge to drop my pants and water him. I'm hoping he'll either grow up or take the hint." -me From scs at di.org Mon Jun 17 11:05:37 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:05:37 -0400 Subject: Devera [was: protection] Message-ID: <20020617180537.GA11199@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> No spoilers, since pretty much all of this is in the first book: > okay, if vlad has aliera's brother's soul, and aliera has kieron's other > brothers soul, then it does make sense that devera calls vlad 'uncle' > then. so perhaps aliera isn't mom, but merely 'auntie' .......although i > suppose she could still be mom *and* auntie. eww. lol. anyone else? Honorary unclehood. Happens all the time - I have a half-dozen honorary neices and nephews. -- "Every time I see [name deleted], I get the urge to drop my pants and water him. I'm hoping he'll either grow up or take the hint." -me From scs at di.org Mon Jun 17 11:07:54 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:07:54 -0400 Subject: How did you discover ... ? Message-ID: <20020617180754.GA11337@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Saw Jhereg in paperback, bought it because I had money and liked the cover. -- "Every time I see [name deleted], I get the urge to drop my pants and water him. I'm hoping he'll either grow up or take the hint." -me From jtoth at megrez.org Mon Jun 17 11:21:42 2002 From: jtoth at megrez.org (Jim Toth) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:21:42 -0400 Subject: How did you discover ... ? In-Reply-To: <200206132243.g5DMhJw3000718@localhost.twcny.rr.com> References: <200206132243.g5DMhJw3000718@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <20020617182142.GA15183@castor.megrez.org> On Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 06:43:19PM -0400, Thomas Yan (tyan at twcny.rr.com) said: > I'm curious. How did you discover Steve's books, and how did you > learn of this mailing list? Ran across _Jhereg_ in a used bookstore in, hmm, 1988. Liked it enough to seek out everything else by him at that point, which I think consisted of _Yendi_, _Brokedown Palace_, _To Reign in Hell_, and _Teckla_. And I've read everything since. > I learned of this mailing list from DDB's announcement on RASF*. I missed the original announcement in one of my mass catching-ups, but saw a mention of it in his sig. -- Jim Toth jtoth at megrez.org From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Jun 17 12:14:05 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 17 Jun 2002 14:14:05 -0500 Subject: How did you discover ... ? In-Reply-To: <20020617182142.GA15183@castor.megrez.org> References: <200206132243.g5DMhJw3000718@localhost.twcny.rr.com> <20020617182142.GA15183@castor.megrez.org> Message-ID: Jim Toth writes: > On Thu, Jun 13, 2002 at 06:43:19PM -0400, Thomas Yan (tyan at twcny.rr.com) said: > > I learned of this mailing list from DDB's announcement on RASF*. > > I missed the original announcement in one of my mass catching-ups, but > saw a mention of it in his sig. Ah, the fine art of newsgroup advertising! :-) -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dgf at dd-b.net Mon Jun 17 15:17:01 2002 From: dgf at dd-b.net (dgf at dd-b.net) Date: 17 Jun 2002 22:17:01 -0000 Subject: Dragaera subscriber list Message-ID: <20020617221701.28097.qmail@dd-b.net> adia (at) hellug.gr (email) =?iso-8859-7?B?wevd7uHt5PHv8iDE6eHs4e303+Tn8g==?= adina (at) panix.com (email) aheyman (at) rcn.com (email) "Adam Heyman" akomins (at) midway.uchicago.edu (email) Arin Komins alan (at) 5sc.net (email) "Alan" alipkin (at) learnlink.emory.edu (email) ambyrglow (at) softhome.net (email) ambyrglow (at) softhome.net anthony (at) netdocuments.com (email) Anthony Tedjamulia BEERcons (at) aol.com (email) Beldarrin (at) aol.com (email) bertowud (at) gator.net (email) BoneTone22 (at) aol.com (email) BoneTone22 (at) aol.com books (at) bofh.com (email) books (at) bofh.com bowman (at) mac.com (email) Michael Bowman briandmichelle (at) yahoo.com (email) Brian and Michelle Baskett Christopher_M_Kane (at) brown.edu (email) chuning88 (at) yahoo.com (email) cmt17 (at) cable-lynx.net (email) Craig corwin (at) mpls.cx (email) (Corwin Brust) cwalker (at) johnadamsmortgage.com (email) "Cal Walker" dale.kunz (at) wcom.com (email) Dale Kunz dan-tain_ishanti (at) attbi.com (email) "Brad Crawford" david.lish (at) sega.com (email) David Lish dd-b (at) dd-b.net (email) (David Dyer-Bennet) den (at) monger.net (email) dgf (at) dd-b.net (post) diony (at) idiom.com (email) divyasatyam (at) satyam.net.in (email) "Divya" dragaera (at) juima.org (email) Sander Eileenlufkin (at) visi.com (email) "Eileen Lufkin" ejpeterson (at) attbi.com (email) eshivak (at) netzero.net (email) "Eric Shivak" FelixEisen (at) aol.com (email) frank (at) exit.com (email) Frank Mayhar frankNfi (at) zip.com.au (email) frankNfi frozentitan (at) comcast.net (email) Frozen Titan furryjawa (at) yahoo.com (email) David Lish gaertk (at) aol.com (email) Gaertk (at) aol.com gaku169 (at) hotmail.com (digest) "Denis Berthelsen" geewiz (at) mac.com (email) Glenn Ellingson goldfarb (at) ocf.berkeley.edu (email) (David Goldfarb) grapawy (at) yahoo.com (email) Gregory Rapawy harrisonjeff (at) attbi.com (email) "Jeff Harrison" hhertzof (at) panix.com (email) Hilary Hertzoff igalbraith (at) ozonline.com.au (email) igalbraith (at) ozonline.com.au (Ian Galbraith) ijamie (at) sympatico.ca (email) "Ian sympatico" jamesandmary.burbidge (at) sympatico.ca (email) James and Mary Burbidge jbdelong (at) uclink.berkeley.edu (email) Brad DeLong jbearson (at) tampabay.rr.com (email) "Jbearson" jetdragn (at) bellsouth.net (email) jhereg69 (at) earthlink.net (email) Jose Marquez jimkatz (at) ix.netcom.com (email) Jim Katz joel.davis (at) thedailytimes.com (email) "Joel Davis" joelynch (at) inreach.com (digest) "Joe Lynch" jot (at) chud.net (post) jtoth (at) megrez.org (email) Jim Toth juliette_torres (at) yahoo.com (digest) Juliette Torres kknolte (at) ecity.net (email) K Kuhn kpadgett1 (at) cox.net (email) "Ken Padgett" KReaves739 (at) aol.com (email) KReaves739 (at) aol.com kunimon (at) wanadoo.es (email) =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ram=F3n=20Pe=F1a?= kyonne (at) shaw.ca (email) kyonne l3iol2iot (at) hotmail.com (email) "Chuck Evans Jr" lairdb (at) email.com (email) "L. 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Nonymous" zizban (at) adelphia.net (email) Chris Turkel From tyan at twcny.rr.com Mon Jun 17 16:08:54 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 19:08:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Devera [was: protection] References: <00af01c21481$d371c320$1401a8c0@Spencer> Message-ID: <200206172308.g5HN8sOR001699@localhost.twcny.rr.com> [Let's see if this gets through; earlier tries today didn't make it....] "Lisa Grant Coffin" writes: > Gametech wrote: > >>>> Spoilers for all Vlad books published thru Issola > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > > [...] And also, wasn't it mentioned in Issola that the gods are actually a > combination of many different types of beings, yes. > some are even Jenoine yes. > who threw their lot in with the 'rebels' at the time of Kieron? I don't remember that, all I remember about Jenoine gods was that they were Jenoine who managed to survive the creation of Amorphia. I don't remember anything involving Kieron and Jenoine gods. It seems to me like J-gods went splitsville, like their new status left them uninterested in / above plain-Jenoine affairs. At this point, it seems possible but unlikely to me that they're the ones running the show, and that the plain-Js we saw in Issola were their underlings. - tky From tyan at twcny.rr.com Mon Jun 17 16:13:01 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 19:13:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Devera [was: protection] References: <173.9c33664.2a3c9eef@aol.com> Message-ID: <200206172313.g5HND1LQ001702@localhost.twcny.rr.com> [slightly rearranged] Raellew at aol.com writes: > In a message dated 6/14/02, tyan at twcny.rr.com writes: > *** Spoilers *** for Issola > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >There's an interesting list on pp226-227. Barlen and "other Lords of > >Judgment appeared". There's a list of beings, ending with "even a > >dragon which {'should' be 'that' :)} [...] seemed [...] as if it knew me > >[but] didn't seem like [the "one from the Paths of the Dead"]". > >I guess "even" means (Vlad thinks) "in addition to the LoJs, there was > >also a dragon, who is not a LoJ" -- > There's no indication that any beings other than gods have appeared in > that scene, and I don't see why Vlad, with all those strange shapes, > would assume one of them *wasn't* a god. Agreed, [except for] / [which is why I found] p247 odd: > >indeed, on p247, the LoJs and the > >dragon are listed separately. Damn. I *like* the idea of Devera as a > >Lord of Judgment. I suppose she still could become one. I wonder if Vlad had started to figure out who the dragon was. - tky From tyan at twcny.rr.com Mon Jun 17 16:39:42 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 19:39:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Issola] Cute References: <001701c21578$1a3f9ab0$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: <200206172339.g5HNdgdE001725@localhost.twcny.rr.com> [Sorry Scott, for previously misdirecting my reply.] "Scott Ingram" writes: > "Thomas Yan" wrote: I had also said "I don't remember there being anything like psychologists", and follow-ups reminded me of a key fact I had forgotten: psionics, etc., have a number of implications for Dragaerans in the Dragaeran Empire: + There are mind reading techniques, i.e. ways to fairly directly finding out what another person is feeling and thinking. + So there might be less motivation for developing methods for indirectly deducing emotions and thoughts from facial expressions, body language, and actions. Except that there are also techniques for blocking mind probes, and the Empress obviously is good at accurately deducing thoughts without using mind readings. > > *** Spoilers for Issola *** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [...] although Teldra uses the word cute (p155), and > > Morrolan and Aliera don't like being called cute (unlike Loish, "I > > *am* cute" :), it seems like cute for them is an intellectual concept, > > not an emotional response. So I don't know. > > I think you're reading too much into this. Morrolan wears black and is a big > bad witch living in Castle Black; Aliera is ... well, she's an e'Kieron, > both of them have devoted their lives to being antithetical to 'cute'. True, so it is risky to try to gauge the range of Dragaeran emotions >from how they react, but my that's my impression. > I think even to us cute is both an intellectual concept and an emotional > resonse. Humans contrive to be 'cute' or its opposite all the time. Oh, no doubt. > > The Jenoine seem rather unemotional. Sure, they are said to hate > > Verra and be jealous of the gods, but that seems to me like a cold > > passion, not a hot fire. So Telda saying the Jenoine think they > > (Vlad, Morrolan, Aliera, Teldra) are cute (p155), particularly strikes > > me as Jenoine regarding "cute" as an intellectual concept, not an > > emotional response. Plus, Teldra may have been translating a Jenoine > > concept into Dragaeran/Easterner terms, which is another further remove. > > I don't see the Jenoine being 'jealous' of the gods. I see them more as > laboratory researchers being frustrated because the mice won't come out of > their cages. My cats sometimes refuse to come out from under the bed and > while they look so stubborn and cute under there, they still make me feel > frustrated. Sethra say, p38, the Jenoine are "filled with lust for this power, and hatred for those who destroyed their brethren -- or so I believe[.] Who [...] might protect us from this jealous and angry species [....]". - tky From ijamie at sympatico.ca Mon Jun 17 17:09:35 2002 From: ijamie at sympatico.ca (Ian sympatico) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 20:09:35 -0400 Subject: Teckla, etc References: <3C6299BC-7A87-11D6-8869-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <003301c2165c$6dfe9b80$ea815f41@idirect.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Turkel" To: Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 10:27 PM Subject: Re: Teckla, etc > How about just getting rid of the pink smog? Or are Dragaerans easily > sunburned? > -------- Speaking of which has the author ever given a reason for the pink smog. I was re-reading Dragon and tryingto remember. Ian > Read The World at the Edge of Time, my new book! > http://homepage.mac.com/christurkel > > From ijamie at sympatico.ca Mon Jun 17 17:15:54 2002 From: ijamie at sympatico.ca (Ian sympatico) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 20:15:54 -0400 Subject: Stupid Vlad? (was Re: "The time has come, the Walrus said) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020605172344.00a5b140@pop3.lvcm.com> <3D01DA9D.7060209@juima.org> Message-ID: <004401c2165d$501de020$ea815f41@idirect.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sander" To: "Dragaera list" Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 6:21 AM Subject: Stupid Vlad? (was Re: "The time has come, the Walrus said) > Steven Brust wrote: > > You keep forgetting that Vlad is an idiot. > > This intrigues me. Do you really see Vlad as an idiot? I mean, sure, > he's not a super intelligent Vance-like character with more intelligence > and skills than a small town, and yes, sometimes when he's taking a > stroll out on his own after making powerful enemies he's not thinking > all that clearly and should have been a bit more practical, but despite > that I still see Vlad as a pretty intelligent guy. > And I don't believe this is just because of the bias of seeing things > through his eyes. I usually have an instinctive loathing of less > intelligent characters, but Vlad never made any warning bells ring. > I agree Vlad may not be super-intelligent, but he does seem to think very fast on his feet. Slightly off topic, does he seem to be bragging in the books lately regarding his knife throwing prowess? P.S. I am trying to get used to this response style you have adopted. Ian From ijamie at sympatico.ca Mon Jun 17 17:22:25 2002 From: ijamie at sympatico.ca (Ian sympatico) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 20:22:25 -0400 Subject: [Poll] What haven't you read? References: <4EFDB4BD.046B2C63.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <00a001c2165e$38d1b6c0$ea815f41@idirect.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, June 14, 2002 4:47 PM Subject: [Poll] What haven't you read? > Now that we've heard all the arguments for and against > spoiler protection, let's see if anyone actually needs it. > > The following is a list of all of the Brust stories that I > know of. > > [Novels] > Agyar > Athyra > Book of Jhereg (omnibus of Jhereg, Yendi, Teckla) > Book of Taltos (omnibus of Taltos, Phoenix) > Brokedown Palace > Cowboy Feng's Space Bar and Grill > Dragon > Five Hundred Years After > Freedom and Neccessity (with Emma Bull) > Gyspy (with Megan Lindholm [aka Robin Hobb]) > Issola > Jhereg > Orca > Phoenix > The Phoenix Guards > The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars > Taltos > Teckla > To Reign in Hell > Yendi > > [Short stories] > An Act of Contrition > An Act of Love (with Gregory Frost and Megan Lindholm) > An Act of Mercy (with Megan Lindholm) > An Act of Trust > Attention Shoppers > Calling Pittsburg > A Dream of Passion > Drift > A Hot Night at Cheeky's > Valosag and Elet > When the Bough Breaks > > For myself, I bounced off of Agyar, TRiH, and F&N but have > read everything else. And I've already had Agyar's secret > spoiled, so there isn't anything major left to spoil for > me. > I agree, sorry Steve. I was really pumped when I picked up F&N but couldn't get into it. Agyar was a tough one to get into as well. I think I will give it another try. TRiH took three trys. The first two I coldn't get into it and then the third time I thought the book was fantastic, 4th, 5th and 6th times as well. I quess your mood when you pick up a book has a lot to do with how you react to it. Ian From ijamie at sympatico.ca Mon Jun 17 17:28:05 2002 From: ijamie at sympatico.ca (Ian sympatico) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 20:28:05 -0400 Subject: Spoiler rules References: <59B367B6-7FA2-11D6-97E2-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <00c501c2165f$03db40c0$ea815f41@idirect.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Turkel" To: Sent: Friday, June 14, 2002 10:23 AM Subject: Spoiler rules > I am going to post this on the readalong list as well. I offer up these > few rules for discussion before I make them official. > > 1. Everything posted on the Readalong list is, by definition, spoilers. > See my previous email to see what I mean. > > 2. Put only the work we are discussing in the header. If we are > discussing Teckla, put Teckla in the header. If we are discussing a > specific chapter of Teckla, put Teckla Chapter Two in the header. > > 3. I think the list will set the pace so I won't define how long we > dwell on a specific part just yet but I might nudge if we spent, oh, 6 > weeks on Chapter Five of The Phoenix Guards, for instance. > > 4. I think we should start with an older work of Steve's, perhaps the > the much discussed Teckla, just to get our feet wet and we'll go from > there. > > 5. Of course any of Steve's works are up for reading, including his > stories in the Liavek books. I think the whole point of the readalongs is discussing the spoilers and "why didn't we see that one coming?" The heading idea is very good. I have been away for a few days and just started catching up with the list, jumping all over the place with the list. I immediately deleted every thing with Issola in the title as I have not purchased the book YET. SOON. Ian From singram at videotron.ca Mon Jun 17 17:28:06 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 20:28:06 -0400 Subject: [Poll] What haven't you read? References: <4EFDB4BD.046B2C63.00048EA6@aol.com> <00a001c2165e$38d1b6c0$ea815f41@idirect.com> Message-ID: <001a01c2165f$0418e600$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian sympatico" To: Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 8:22 PM Subject: Re: [Poll] What haven't you read? > I agree, sorry Steve. I was really pumped when I picked up F&N but couldn't > get into it. Agyar was a tough one to get into as well. I think I will give > it another try. TRiH took three trys. The first two I coldn't get into it > and then the third time I thought the book was fantastic, 4th, 5th and 6th > times as well. I quess your mood when you pick up a book has a lot to do > with how you react to it. > > Ian I've bounced off of F&N about four times now. I have enjoyed all of his other books, however. From singram at videotron.ca Mon Jun 17 17:26:08 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 20:26:08 -0400 Subject: [Issola] Cute References: <001701c21578$1a3f9ab0$17ecca18@ingram> <200206172339.g5HNdgdE001725@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <001001c2165e$bdeb5a50$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Yan" To: Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 7:39 PM Subject: Re: [Issola] Cute > [Sorry Scott, for previously misdirecting my reply.] > > "Scott Ingram" writes: > > "Thomas Yan" wrote: > > + There are mind reading techniques, i.e. ways to fairly directly > finding out what another person is feeling and thinking. > > + So there might be less motivation for developing methods for > indirectly deducing emotions and thoughts from facial expressions, > body language, and actions. One motivation is the pursuit of courtesy, and everything that implies (See conversations between Vlad and Teldra). Also, common use of psionics is very recent, even in The Phoenix Guards psionic communication required a special device, and was unheard of by most of the characters in the book. > Except that there are also techniques for blocking mind probes, and > the Empress obviously is good at accurately deducing thoughts without > using mind readings. > > > > *** Spoilers for Issola *** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sethra say, p38, the Jenoine are "filled with lust for this power, and > hatred for those who destroyed their brethren -- or so I believe[.] > Who [...] might protect us from this jealous and angry species [....]". > > - tky I think Sethra is very confused with regard to the Jenoine, and honestly, it seems that encounters with the Jenoine are so few and far inbetween that even Teldra, with her one limited encounter, has perhaps greater insight than millenia-old Sethra. From harrisonjeff at attbi.com Mon Jun 17 17:33:51 2002 From: harrisonjeff at attbi.com (Jeff Harrison) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 17:33:51 -0700 Subject: Now here's an idea for this group..... Message-ID: <000401c2165f$d2352e40$6401a8c0@attbi.com> Due to some concerns re: e-mail volume, etc...we *could* consider using Yahoo Groups. They are free, and you can either choose to get emails, or just sign into the club when you wish, and catch up on the messages...there is even a chat section, specific to each group. Also, there wouldn't be any list maintenance for our administrator, and files could be shared....what do you think? Any interest? Jeff From ijamie at sympatico.ca Mon Jun 17 17:37:28 2002 From: ijamie at sympatico.ca (Ian sympatico) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 20:37:28 -0400 Subject: Books to Movies References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020608194614.00a65cb0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <011201c21660$52e66ea0$ea815f41@idirect.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Brust" To: ; Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 10:48 PM Subject: Re: Books to Movies > At 10:09 PM 6/8/2002 -0400, Beldarrin at aol.com wrote: > > If someone offered you (Mr. > >Steve) lots of money to turn one of your books into a movie, which one would > >you want it to be, would you do it, and do you believe it would be selling > >out? > > Do you mean turn it into a movie, or let someone else turn it into a > movie? The former I wouldn't do, the latter I would. I think Agyar would > make the best movie as long as it was very low-budget. For a big budget > movie, I think Feng would work best. Cowboy Feng movie. Whaaa hoooo. I picture a dark thing sort of like Blade Runner but a little more action. Or maybe like "Big Trouble in Little China". Yeah Ian From rick at 404.978.org Mon Jun 17 17:36:38 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 20:36:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Poll] What haven't you read? In-Reply-To: <00a001c2165e$38d1b6c0$ea815f41@idirect.com> References: <4EFDB4BD.046B2C63.00048EA6@aol.com> <00a001c2165e$38d1b6c0$ea815f41@idirect.com> Message-ID: <2183.192.168.1.1.1024360598.squirrel@404.978.org> > Subject: [Poll] What haven't you read? > >> Now that we've heard all the arguments for and against >> spoiler protection, let's see if anyone actually needs it. >> >> The following is a list of all of the Brust stories that I >> know of. >> >> [Novels] >> Agyar >> Athyra >> Book of Jhereg (omnibus of Jhereg, Yendi, Teckla) >> Book of Taltos (omnibus of Taltos, Phoenix) >> Brokedown Palace >> Cowboy Feng's Space Bar and Grill >> Dragon >> Five Hundred Years After >> Freedom and Neccessity (with Emma Bull) >> Gyspy (with Megan Lindholm [aka Robin Hobb]) >> Issola >> Jhereg >> Orca >> Phoenix >> The Phoenix Guards >> The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars >> Taltos >> Teckla >> To Reign in Hell >> Yendi >> >> [Short stories] >> An Act of Contrition >> An Act of Love (with Gregory Frost and Megan Lindholm) >> An Act of Mercy (with Megan Lindholm) >> An Act of Trust >> Attention Shoppers >> Calling Pittsburg >> A Dream of Passion >> Drift >> A Hot Night at Cheeky's >> Valosag and Elet >> When the Bough Breaks I'm a newbie here in more than one sense... I just joined the list today, and though I bought The Book of Jhereg a couple months ago, it only came up in my reading queue (it was behind _What Einstin Told His Cook: Kitchen Science Explained_) about two weeks ago. I tore through it, bought The Book of Taltos, read nearly all of it (then accidentaly left it at the vet on an emergency visit and have to get it still), ordered TRiH from a used bookseller online, and bought The Phoenix Guards yesterday to hold me over until I get TBoT back (and am 2/3 through it). I hate being the guy who needs the spoiler warnings, too! (Having to post spoiler warnings for Babylon 5 until episodes aired in the UK and otherwhere was a pain!) -Rick http://rick.978.org/ From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Jun 17 17:36:28 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 19:36:28 -0500 Subject: Now here's an idea for this group..... In-Reply-To: <000401c2165f$d2352e40$6401a8c0@attbi.com> References: <000401c2165f$d2352e40$6401a8c0@attbi.com> Message-ID: <20020618003628.GA27137@infodancer.org> On Mon, Jun 17, 2002 at 05:33:51PM -0700, Jeff Harrison wrote: > Due to some concerns re: e-mail volume, etc...we *could* consider using > Yahoo Groups. They are free, and you can either choose to get emails, or > just sign into the club when you wish, and catch up on the messages...there > is even a chat section, specific to each group. Also, there wouldn't be any > list maintenance for our administrator, and files could be shared....what do > you think? Any interest? Let's not feed the marketing monster any more than we have to. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From rick at 404.978.org Mon Jun 17 17:42:42 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 20:42:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Now here's an idea for this group..... In-Reply-To: <000401c2165f$d2352e40$6401a8c0@attbi.com> References: <000401c2165f$d2352e40$6401a8c0@attbi.com> Message-ID: <2213.192.168.1.1.1024360962.squirrel@404.978.org> Jeff Harrison said: > Due to some concerns re: e-mail volume, etc...we *could* consider using > Yahoo Groups. They are free, and you can either choose to get emails, > or just sign into the club when you wish, and catch up on the > messages...there is even a chat section, specific to each group. Also, > there wouldn't be any list maintenance for our administrator, and files > could be shared....what do you think? Any interest? > > Jeff Ugh! I'm new here, but I'd strongly advise against it. I'm a member of a few Yahoo Groups, and if the material weren't so compelling (Cloudmakers mostly), I wouldn't bother. The web interface is drowned in ads, not just on each message page, but also pages devoted entirely to ads sandwiched between every 7th message or so. Even if you only use the email version, you've still got ads on every message, and Yahoo "privacy" policies to deal with. Good list manager software, with a relatively loose configuration, can pretty much manage itself. Do the lists need more options than self-subscription, self-unsubscription, auto query options, and monthly mailing of member list? -Rick http://rick.978.org/ pretty From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Jun 17 18:00:24 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 17 Jun 2002 20:00:24 -0500 Subject: [Poll] What haven't you read? In-Reply-To: <2183.192.168.1.1.1024360598.squirrel@404.978.org> References: <4EFDB4BD.046B2C63.00048EA6@aol.com> <00a001c2165e$38d1b6c0$ea815f41@idirect.com> <2183.192.168.1.1.1024360598.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: "Rick Castello" writes: > I'm a newbie here in more than one sense... [snip] > ... and bought The Phoenix Guards yesterday to > hold me over until I get TBoT back (and am 2/3 through it). > > I hate being the guy who needs the spoiler warnings, too! > (Having to post spoiler warnings for Babylon 5 until episodes > aired in the UK and otherwhere was a pain!) We're just starting a group read of The Phoenix Guards over on the Dragaera Readalong list (see the web site, in my signature, for more info on that list). Currently reading prologue through chapter 2, so you're ahead of us, but the discussion is just getting started.... -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Jun 17 17:45:28 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 17:45:28 -0700 Subject: Spoilers: (Was Spoiler protection) In-Reply-To: <3D09EFB2.D8568A09@attbi.com> References: <42.28a13d51.2a3abc65@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020617174317.00a95a30@pop3.lvcm.com> At 08:29 AM 6/14/2002 -0500, Mia McDavid wrote: >Hey, Steve, > >Something I've been wondering. Do *you* know where all this is going? If we do an FAQ, this should be on it. :-) The answer is that I know *some* things. I have bits and pieces of Vlad's career mapped out, but I am leaving enough room in how he gets there to be able to do cool stuff I think of as it goes. > Do you know who Devera is? Or is >she just a way to mess with our heads? Well, both. I mean, I know things about her that I have not yet revealed. But there are enough things left for me to discover that I continue to be curious, and to hope to find out more. Be assured that, as I discover more, I will conceal it from you as entertainingly as possible. From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Jun 17 18:03:08 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 17 Jun 2002 20:03:08 -0500 Subject: Now here's an idea for this group..... In-Reply-To: <000401c2165f$d2352e40$6401a8c0@attbi.com> References: <000401c2165f$d2352e40$6401a8c0@attbi.com> Message-ID: "Jeff Harrison" writes: > Due to some concerns re: e-mail volume, etc...we *could* consider using > Yahoo Groups. They are free, and you can either choose to get emails, or > just sign into the club when you wish, and catch up on the messages...there > is even a chat section, specific to each group. Also, there wouldn't be any > list maintenance for our administrator, and files could be shared....what do > you think? Any interest? No. This group is specifically associated with the Dragaera web site at http://dragaera.info/ , and there are a lot of benefits for keeping full control over the list ourselves. And there's a web archive here, as well, where you can read the messages in chronological order, by thread, by author, whatever. You can also get them in digest mode (Yahoo offers that also). And Yahoo groups performance is really slow, and they're intrusive, you have to sign up for a yahoo id, and there's advertising and spam, and generally it's no fun. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From Starshadw at aol.com Mon Jun 17 17:52:03 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 20:52:03 EDT Subject: FAQ Message-ID: <9c.218c96e3.2a3fde33@aol.com> In a message dated 6/17/2002 6:45:54 PM Mountain Daylight Time, skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > If we do an FAQ, this should be on it. :-) > Is that a not-so-subtle hint, Steve?? Heh...seriously, though, what sorts of things would you (all of you) like to be/think should be covered on an FAQ? Obviously: 1. Do you know how it's all going to end? 2. Who is Devera? 3. ????? Stacy From harrisonjeff at attbi.com Mon Jun 17 17:54:07 2002 From: harrisonjeff at attbi.com (Jeff Harrison) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 17:54:07 -0700 Subject: OK, OK, OK!!!! That was a bad idea!!! Message-ID: <000501c21662$a7a66060$6401a8c0@attbi.com> Thanks for the good critiques on the Yahoo Groups idea....they were all right on the money....'nuff said! I formally withdraw the idea! Tahnks! Jeff From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Jun 17 18:12:54 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 18:12:54 -0700 Subject: To Reign in Hell [was: How did you discover] In-Reply-To: <200206150846.g5F8kkY22184@apocalypse.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020617181129.02cd0d40@pop3.lvcm.com> At 01:46 AM 6/15/2002 -0700, David Goldfarb wrote: > >*** (potential) Spoilers for To Reign in Hell *** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >How did you know Abdiel's side from his name? Was it the "iel" suffix > >-- did all such characters have the same allegiance? > >Just so. The "-el" suffix derives from the Hebrew for "God" and in >angelology is on the end of just about all the angel names. So, any >character with a name ending in "-el" I knew would end up on Yahweh's >side (frex: Abdiel, Uriel, Raphael) and any who didn't (Asmodai, >Mepistopheles, Lilith, Harut) would end up aligned with Satan. It worked >for the pair of "grunt" angels, Kyriel and Sith. What's funny is that *I* didn't realize that until you pointed it out. This is kinda weird. I mean, I remember as I was writing that I didn't know how Kyriel and Sith would jump. Strange. From Raellew at aol.com Mon Jun 17 18:20:14 2002 From: Raellew at aol.com (Raellew at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 21:20:14 EDT Subject: Spoilers: (Was Spoiler protection) Message-ID: <146.101f4a61.2a3fe4ce@aol.com> In a message dated 6/17/02, Steven Brust writes: >Be assured that, as I discover more, I will conceal it from you as >entertainingly as possible. Tease. Rae From zizban at adelphia.net Mon Jun 17 18:26:11 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 21:26:11 -0400 Subject: FAQ In-Reply-To: <9c.218c96e3.2a3fde33@aol.com> Message-ID: <5F7C14DC-825A-11D6-BF0C-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Monday, June 17, 2002, at 08:52 PM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/17/2002 6:45:54 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > > >> If we do an FAQ, this should be on it. :-) >> > Is that a not-so-subtle hint, Steve?? Heh...seriously, though, what > sorts of > things would you (all of you) like to be/think should be covered on an > FAQ? > > Obviously: > > 1. Do you know how it's all going to end? > 2. Who is Devera? > 3. ????? > > > Stacy > 1. Q:How many Vlad books will there be? A: 19. A first one,Taltos, one for each house and a last one called "The Last Contract" 2. Q:Does Steve still live in Minnesota? A: No, he now resides in Las Vegas. He got sick of hooking up a dog team and sled just to check the mail. There is my contribution :-) ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Jun 17 18:41:55 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 18:41:55 -0700 Subject: Cawti, Marxism In-Reply-To: <1ac.3c77e2e.2a3ecf92@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020617184139.02d139d0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 01:37 AM 6/17/2002 -0400, FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: >Please note that I wrote that post BEFORE I saw Steve's commentary about >'Give me a week and I'll make a Marxist out of you.' > >Either he's a rat bastard, or I am. I'm voting for both. "Both" would seem intuitively obvious. :-) From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Jun 17 18:43:24 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 18:43:24 -0700 Subject: Cawti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020617184230.02d11850@pop3.lvcm.com> At 02:59 AM 6/17/2002 -0300, Alex Nixon wrote: >I've always been partial to Engles. He's probably the Marxist/Communist >that I can appreciate the most- intelligent, funny, and posessing the best >(in my opinon) and most straight-forward writing style of all the >Marxist/Communist/Trotsky Sympathisizers I agree on all counts, except that I think Trotsky was even a better writer than Engles. From scs at di.org Mon Jun 17 18:53:59 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 21:53:59 -0400 Subject: To Reign in Hell [was: How did you discover] Message-ID: <20020618015359.GA19157@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Steven Brust writes: > At 01:46 AM 6/15/2002 -0700, David Goldfarb wrote: > > >Just so. The "-el" suffix derives from the Hebrew for "God" and in > >angelology is on the end of just about all the angel names. So, any > >character with a name ending in "-el" I knew would end up on Yahweh's > >side (frex: Abdiel, Uriel, Raphael) and any who didn't (Asmodai, > >Mepistopheles, Lilith, Harut) would end up aligned with Satan. It worked > >for the pair of "grunt" angels, Kyriel and Sith. > > What's funny is that *I* didn't realize that until you pointed it > out. This is kinda weird. I mean, I remember as I was writing that I > didn't know how Kyriel and Sith would jump. Strange. Taylor Caldwell wrote in a preface to `Dialogs With The Devil' that at some point the characters seemed to take over the novel. Other authors have reported similar actions by their characters, but in this particular case Caldwell found it quite disconcerting. Perhaps you should try a sequel and observe more closely . . . it would be sort of a cross between `Paradise Regained,' `Only Begotten Daughter,' and Vidals `Messiah.' :-) -- "Every time I see [name deleted], I get the urge to drop my pants and water him. I'm hoping he'll either grow up or take the hint." -me From zizban at adelphia.net Mon Jun 17 19:04:37 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 22:04:37 -0400 Subject: To Reign in Hell [was: How did you discover] In-Reply-To: <20020618015359.GA19157@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: On Monday, June 17, 2002, at 09:53 PM, Steve Simmons wrote: > Steven Brust writes: > >> At 01:46 AM 6/15/2002 -0700, David Goldfarb wrote: >> >>> Just so. The "-el" suffix derives from the Hebrew for "God" and in >>> angelology is on the end of just about all the angel names. So, any >>> character with a name ending in "-el" I knew would end up on Yahweh's >>> side (frex: Abdiel, Uriel, Raphael) and any who didn't (Asmodai, >>> Mepistopheles, Lilith, Harut) would end up aligned with Satan. It >>> worked >>> for the pair of "grunt" angels, Kyriel and Sith. >> >> What's funny is that *I* didn't realize that until you pointed it >> out. This is kinda weird. I mean, I remember as I was writing that I >> didn't know how Kyriel and Sith would jump. Strange. > > Taylor Caldwell wrote in a preface to `Dialogs With The Devil' that at > some point the characters seemed to take over the novel. Other authors > have reported similar actions by their characters, but in this > particular > case Caldwell found it quite disconcerting. > That happens to me all the time. Characters appear I hadn't planned for, etc. I find it disconcerting sometimes but that's one of the joys of writing: sometimes things write themselves > Perhaps you should try a sequel and observe more closely . . . it would > be sort of a cross between `Paradise Regained,' `Only Begotten > Daughter,' > and Vidals `Messiah.' > > :-) > -- > "Every time I see [name deleted], I get the urge to drop my pants > and water him. I'm hoping he'll either grow up or take the hint." > -me > > ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Jun 17 19:20:04 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 17 Jun 2002 21:20:04 -0500 Subject: Spoilers: (Was Spoiler protection) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020617174317.00a95a30@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <42.28a13d51.2a3abc65@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020617174317.00a95a30@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: Steven Brust writes: > At 08:29 AM 6/14/2002 -0500, Mia McDavid wrote: > >Hey, Steve, > > > >Something I've been wondering. Do *you* know where all this is going? > > If we do an FAQ, this should be on it. :-) I've got two things in the FAQ in the development database for the new version of the web site (which will have actual *content* in addition to the links page and the mailing lists). Whenever we get that launched; I promise it won't be *less* than a couple of weeks; no promises on the *other* end, though! And then it will be easy to add faqs, and links, and things. And a recipes section. And whatever else we need. I expect to discover the limitations of the design, and perhaps bring the whole thing crashing down, in the first week or so :-). > The answer is that I know *some* things. I have bits and pieces of > Vlad's career mapped out, but I am leaving enough room in how he gets > there to be able to do cool stuff I think of as it goes. > > > Do you know who Devera is? Or is > >she just a way to mess with our heads? > > Well, both. I mean, I know things about her that I have not yet > revealed. But there are enough things left for me to discover that I > continue to be curious, and to hope to find out more. > > Be assured that, as I discover more, I will conceal it from you as > entertainingly as possible. I shall look forward to it. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Jun 17 19:28:22 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 19:28:22 -0700 Subject: To Reign in Hell [was: How did you discover] In-Reply-To: <20020618015359.GA19157@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020617192735.00aaacf0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 09:53 PM 6/17/2002 -0400, Steve Simmons wrote: >Perhaps you should try a sequel and observe more closely . . . it would >be sort of a cross between `Paradise Regained,' `Only Begotten Daughter,' >and Vidals `Messiah.' To say that I will write a sequel to that book when Hell freezes over would be an accurate statement of my attitude in a number of ways. :-) From unitcancellation at hotmail.com Mon Jun 17 19:45:15 2002 From: unitcancellation at hotmail.com (Alex Nixon) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 23:45:15 -0300 Subject: Cawti Message-ID: I just read the Condition of the Working Class by Engles a couple of months ago, along with some other stuff of his. I thought it was pretty cool, and I'm just a simple capitalist pig. ;) He gave the situation as unbiasedly as one can expect, and then separately gave his opinons. Plus, you've got to respect someone who spends their 70th birthday party getting really drunk, eating oysters and trying (apparently with success) to pick up women. It's been at least 4 years since I picked up Trotsky and Marx, so my recollection of those two is a bit fuzzier. I seem to remember that I did not like them much, as I found them to be slightly dry and cumbersome. But as I said, it's been a few years and many books since them. Alex Nixon ----Original Message Follows---- From: Steven Brust At 02:59 AM 6/17/2002 -0300, Alex Nixon wrote: >I've always been partial to Engles. He's probably the Marxist/Communist >that I can appreciate the most- intelligent, funny, and posessing the best >(in my opinon) and most straight-forward writing style of all the >Marxist/Communist/Trotsky Sympathisizers I agree on all counts, except that I think Trotsky was even a better writer than Engles. What, me worry? I'm a Yankees fan! All Yankee fans would go to heaven... ...but we're already there! _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From Starshadw at aol.com Mon Jun 17 20:05:51 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 23:05:51 EDT Subject: Angel Names [was: To Reign in Hell] Message-ID: <173.9ea455b.2a3ffd8f@aol.com> > Just so. The "-el" suffix derives from the Hebrew for "God" and in > >angelology is on the end of just about all the angel names. So, any > >character with a name ending in "-el" I knew would end up on Yahweh's > >side (frex: Abdiel, Uriel, Raphael) and any who didn't (Asmodai, > >Mepistopheles, Lilith, Harut) would end up aligned with Satan. It worked > >for the pair of "grunt" angels, Kyriel and Sith. Be wary, though, of making generalizations. Angels were named BEFORE the Fall, so some of the Fallen do have the -iel suffix: Araqiel Araziel Ariel Barbiel Sariel Usiel And, many of the archangels (the "heavy hitters" not the order of the archangels) don't have the -iel suffix: Michael Raphael Raguel Chamuel Arael Iaoth Adonael I wonder if Steven has the same book I have - A Dictionary of Angels. From frank at exit.com Mon Jun 17 21:03:47 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 21:03:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Now here's an idea for this group..... In-Reply-To: <000401c2165f$d2352e40$6401a8c0@attbi.com> Message-ID: <200206180403.g5I43lgj013011@realtime.exit.com> Jeff Harrison wrote: > Due to some concerns re: e-mail volume, etc...we *could* consider using > Yahoo Groups. They are free, and you can either choose to get emails, or > just sign into the club when you wish, and catch up on the messages...there > is even a chat section, specific to each group. Also, there wouldn't be any > list maintenance for our administrator, and files could be shared....what do > you think? Any interest? No. They spam. (I'm on another list that recently _left_ Yahoo because of that, in fact.) -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Jun 17 22:32:46 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 22:32:46 -0700 Subject: Marx and Trotsky In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020617220729.00a91120@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:45 PM 6/17/2002 -0300, Alex Nixon wrote: >It's been at least 4 years since I picked up Trotsky and Marx, so my >recollection of those two is a bit fuzzier. I seem to remember that I did >not like them much, as I found them to be slightly dry and >cumbersome. But as I said, it's been a few years and many books since them. Marx suffers from having been born German, although in spite if this there are moments of brilliance. As for Trotsky, well, here a few of my favorites: A revolution is always distinguished by impoliteness, probably because the ruling classes did not take the trouble in good season to teach the people fine manners. Those who lose by a revolution are rarely inclined to call it by its real name. Nature, who was not thoughtful enough to arm the majority of men with rhinoceros skin, also endowed the soldier with a nervous system. Revolutions serve to remind us from time to time of this carelessness on the part of nature. ...That is the moral of the opponents of violence in politics: they renounce violence when it comes to introducing changes in what already exists, but in defence of the existing order they will not stop at the most ruthless acts. In practice a reformist party considers unshakable the foundations of that which it intends to reform. It thus inevitably submits to the ideas and morals of the ruling class. Technique is noticed most markedly in the case of those who have not mastered it. The human word is the most portable of all materials. Anarchism [is] a theory very sweeping in its verbal negations, but lifeless and cowardly in its practical conclusions. In the language of biology, one might say that the historical law is realized through the natural selection of accidents. Great revolutions deprive the property-holders even of the privilege of dignified hypocrisy. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Jun 17 22:35:43 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 22:35:43 -0700 Subject: Angel Names [was: To Reign in Hell] In-Reply-To: <173.9ea455b.2a3ffd8f@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020617223528.009d12a0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:05 PM 6/17/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >I wonder if Steven has the same book I have - A Dictionary of Angels. Yep. From Starshadw at aol.com Mon Jun 17 22:47:17 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 01:47:17 EDT Subject: Angel Names [was: To Reign in Hell] Message-ID: <187.961faaf.2a402365@aol.com> In a message dated 6/17/2002 11:35:54 PM Mountain Daylight Time, skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > Yep. Ahhhhh...another collector of "referential-type" books just in case one ever has need. I have many such books. Of course, you probably bought it in direct relation to writing TRIH but I love books, and can't help but take such books home. I see them and think, "you never know....." and the next thing you know, it's in my hands. I think my favorite is my cross-referenced index of Gods and Goddesses - over 20,000 of them. What a find! Stacy From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Jun 17 23:05:18 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 23:05:18 -0700 Subject: Angel Names [was: To Reign in Hell] In-Reply-To: <187.961faaf.2a402365@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020617230428.00a958b0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 01:47 AM 6/18/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >I think my favorite is my cross-referenced index of Gods and Goddesses - over >20,000 of them. What a find! I have no interest in wasting time, money, or bookshelf space with such nonsense. Uh...title, author, ISBN? From ijamie at sympatico.ca Tue Jun 18 05:24:24 2002 From: ijamie at sympatico.ca (Ian sympatico) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 08:24:24 -0400 Subject: How did you discover ... ? References: <200206132243.g5DMhJw3000718@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <032601c216c3$15192b40$ea815f41@idirect.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Yan" To: Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 6:43 PM Subject: How did you discover ... ? > I'm curious. How did you discover Steve's books, and how did you > learn of this mailing list? > > I learned of this mailing list from DDB's announcement on RASF*. > > I first discovered Steve's books one glorious summer many years ago > when my family was house sitting for a friend. They had a ton of > books, so I happily 2 to 3 books a day. That was mucho fun. One of > the books was _To Reign in Hell_, which I think I found somewhat > puzzling at the time. > > Anyway, for whatever reason, I didn't seek out Steve's books and, to > some extent, forgot he was the author of TRiH. > > So more recently I re-discovered his books because there were lots of > discussions on RASFW, and because Jo Walton had a rave about him at > her website: It looked like I was missing out a lot of the fun. > > So then I made up for lost time: all the pre-Issola Vlad books, _The > Sun, the Moon, and the Stars_, _Issola_, the Khaavren romances, > _Brokedown Palace_, _Agyar_, _Cowboy Feng's Space Bar and Grille_, and > all 5 Liavek books. > > Hm, I know I reread TRiH somewhere in there; looks like I forgot to > record it in my minimalist booklog. Damn! > > - tky > Picked up an original version of Jhereg when I was a lad at the local bookstore. I now regularly check the "B" section of the bookstore for new books. Found Steve's website and found a few books I didn't know existed and read them. Ian From alan at 5sc.net Tue Jun 18 06:31:20 2002 From: alan at 5sc.net (Alan) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:31:20 -0400 Subject: Now here's an idea for this group..... In-Reply-To: <000401c2165f$d2352e40$6401a8c0@attbi.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Harrison [mailto:harrisonjeff at attbi.com] > Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 20:34 > To: Dragaera (E-mail) > Subject: Now here's an idea for this group..... > > > Due to some concerns re: e-mail volume, etc...we *could* consider using > Yahoo Groups. They are free, and you can either choose to get emails, or > just sign into the club when you wish, and catch up on the > messages...there > is even a chat section, specific to each group. Also, there > wouldn't be any > list maintenance for our administrator, and files could be > shared....what do > you think? Any interest? > > Jeff > No. R. Alan Miller, CCNA, CBCP VP of Engineering Dragon Networks, Inc. ----------------- "Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come." From Starshadw at aol.com Tue Jun 18 06:19:06 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:19:06 -0400 Subject: Angel Names [was: To Reign in Hell] Message-ID: <23C05AAF.537B406D.0296E7C9@aol.com> In a message dated Tue, 18 Jun 2002 2:05:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > Uh...title, author, ISBN? -chuckles- Darn - I'm at work right now or I could get that info for you ASAP. As it is, you're going to have to wait about 6 hours or so until I get home. But I'll keep this message so I won't forget. Stacy From FelixEisen at aol.com Tue Jun 18 07:16:41 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 10:16:41 EDT Subject: Angel Names [was: To Reign in Hell] Message-ID: <12c.130c41d9.2a409ac9@aol.com> Starshadw at aol.com writes: > Be wary, though, of making generalizations. Angels were named BEFORE the > Fall, so some of the Fallen do have the -iel suffix: > > > > And, many of the archangels (the "heavy hitters" not the order of the > archangels) don't have the -iel suffix: Methinks the lady mischecks her information. It is not '-iel' that one should pay attention to, but '-el' -- as in the first part of 'Elohim', one of the (many) names for the Hebrew god. The suffix '-el' roughly means 'god' -- Ariel, 'Lion of God', or Michael, 'He who is like God'. I expect that, if you hit the Hebrew name stuff, you'll find fine translations for all of those... I wonder, though -- if Steve had known the meaning of 'Ariel', would he have made said character in TRiH (still one of my top 5 of all time) a lion, or kept him as he was? Felix Eisen aka Scott Crain From rick at 404.978.org Tue Jun 18 08:36:40 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 11:36:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Poll] What haven't you read? In-Reply-To: References: <4EFDB4BD.046B2C63.00048EA6@aol.com> <00a001c2165e$38d1b6c0$ea815f41@idirect.com> <2183.192.168.1.1.1024360598.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: <4335.192.168.1.1.1024414600.squirrel@404.978.org> David Dyer-Bennet said: > We're just starting a group read of The Phoenix Guards over on the > Dragaera Readalong list (see the web site, in my signature, for more > info on that list). Currently reading prologue through chapter 2, so > you're ahead of us, but the discussion is just getting started.... -- I am now officially subscribed to all three lists. See what you went and did? It has been recorded for posterity, so that later, when the entire community of lists regret this, everyone can point at you. :) -Rick From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Jun 18 09:23:40 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 11:23:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Poll] What haven't you read? In-Reply-To: Rick Castello's message <4335.192.168.1.1.1024414600.squirrel@404.978.org> of 18 June 2002 References: <4EFDB4BD.046B2C63.00048EA6@aol.com> <00a001c2165e$38d1b6c0$ea815f41@idirect.com> <2183.192.168.1.1.1024360598.squirrel@404.978.org> <4335.192.168.1.1.1024414600.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: <15631.24204.887373.986581@gw.dd-b.net> Rick Castello writes on 18 June 2002 at 11:36:40 -0400 > David Dyer-Bennet said: > > > We're just starting a group read of The Phoenix Guards over on the > > Dragaera Readalong list (see the web site, in my signature, for more > > info on that list). Currently reading prologue through chapter 2, so > > you're ahead of us, but the discussion is just getting started.... -- > > I am now officially subscribed to all three lists. > > See what you went and did? It has been recorded for posterity, > so that later, when the entire community of lists regret this, > everyone can point at you. :) Yeah, when I put my "promotional" hat on I'm downright *dangerous*. No judgement at all; just go for more *more* MORE! Heh. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From Randi128 at aol.com Tue Jun 18 10:28:22 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 13:28:22 EDT Subject: How did you discover ... ? Message-ID: I discovered his writings by buying a copy of The Phoenix Guards while I was in graduate school. I have read all his full length novels and enjoyed them all immensely. I had trouble getting a copy of TRiH and Ayagar, but perseverence paid off. I have not read any of the short stories, but would like to. Where would I find these gems? From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Jun 18 10:29:30 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 13:29:30 -0400 Subject: How did you discover ... ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tuesday, June 18, 2002, at 01:28 PM, Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > I discovered his writings by buying a copy of The Phoenix Guards while > I was > in graduate school. I have read all his full length novels and enjoyed > them > all immensely. I had trouble getting a copy of TRiH and Ayagar, but > perseverence paid off. I have not read any of the short stories, but > would > like to. Where would I find these gems? > You can find most of them in the Liavek shared world books. ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Jun 18 13:13:29 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 13:13:29 -0700 Subject: Angel Names [was: To Reign in Hell] In-Reply-To: <23C05AAF.537B406D.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618131312.00a9a540@pop3.lvcm.com> At 09:19 AM 6/18/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >In a message dated Tue, 18 Jun 2002 2:05:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > > > Uh...title, author, ISBN? > >-chuckles- Darn - I'm at work right now or I could get that info for you >ASAP. As it is, you're going to have to wait about 6 hours or so until I >get home. But I'll keep this message so I won't forget. Thanks kindly. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Jun 18 13:15:13 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 13:15:13 -0700 Subject: Angel Names [was: To Reign in Hell] In-Reply-To: <12c.130c41d9.2a409ac9@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618131403.00a9a190@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:16 AM 6/18/2002 -0400, FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: >I wonder, though -- if Steve had known the meaning of 'Ariel', would he have >made said character in TRiH (still one of my top 5 of all time) a lion, or >kept him as he was? I'd certainly have kept him. One of the (many, many) things that led me to write that one was irritation at Milton's handling of that character. He had to be there so I could, uh, set the record straight. From Randi128 at aol.com Tue Jun 18 13:15:30 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 16:15:30 EDT Subject: Cawti Message-ID: <78.28516095.2a40eee2@aol.com> I was prompted to reread the communist manifesto, the only book by Marx or Engels that I possess from college, after I had read Freedom and Necessity. It was several years ago, but, I remember noticing a parallel between what Marx and Engels had envisioned for thier social structure, and our own. The best example, off the top of my head, being public education. I did not get so interested in the writings that I read further works by them at that time. From Starshadw at aol.com Tue Jun 18 13:57:38 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 16:57:38 EDT Subject: Book Ref for Steve [was: Angel Names] Message-ID: I almost sent this just to Steve, but then I knew there was at least one other writer on this list who might find this books interesting and/or helpful, so I figured I'd just send it along to the list. Guide to the Gods by Marjorie Leach (b. 1911- ) ISBN: 0-87436-591-0 published in 1992 by ABC-CLIO What's even more fantastic is that she compiled a complete bibliography, and when she lists the names of the god, she also sticks in the reference. I warn you - the book is pretty darn big, and you can start wandering around in it and get lost - not necessarily a bad thing until you realize you've spent two hours looking. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Jun 18 14:24:19 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 14:24:19 -0700 Subject: Book Ref for Steve [was: Angel Names] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618142359.00a95a00@pop3.lvcm.com> At 04:57 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >Guide to the Gods >by Marjorie Leach (b. 1911- ) >ISBN: 0-87436-591-0 >published in 1992 by ABC-CLIO Thank ye kindly. From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Jun 18 14:28:54 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 17:28:54 -0400 Subject: Book Ref for Steve [was: Angel Names] Message-ID: <35726F1D.1410C743.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Tue, 18 Jun 2002 ?5:04:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Starshadw at aol.com writes: > I almost sent this just to Steve, but then I knew there > was at least one other writer on this list who might find > this books interesting and/or helpful, so I figured I'd > just send it along to the list. As well as some non-writers... >Guide to the Gods >by Marjorie Leach (b. 1911- ) >ISBN: 0-87436-591-0 >published in 1992 by ABC-CLIO Thanks. ?{reaches for the inter-library loan forms....} --KG From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Jun 18 14:58:19 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 17:58:19 -0400 Subject: Book Ref for Steve [was: Angel Names] In-Reply-To: <35726F1D.1410C743.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <7FEE0E38-8306-11D6-8057-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Tuesday, June 18, 2002, at 05:28 PM, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated Tue, 18 Jun 2002 ?5:04:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > Starshadw at aol.com writes: > >> I almost sent this just to Steve, but then I knew there >> was at least one other writer on this list who might find >> this books interesting and/or helpful, so I figured I'd >> just send it along to the list. > > As well as some non-writers... > >> Guide to the Gods >> by Marjorie Leach (b. 1911- ) >> ISBN: 0-87436-591-0 >> published in 1992 by ABC-CLIO > > Thanks. ?{reaches for the inter-library loan forms....} > > --KG > pretty cool....whatta tome :) > ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info From mporter at rogers.com Tue Jun 18 15:38:31 2002 From: mporter at rogers.com (Mark Porter) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 18:38:31 -0400 Subject: Book Ref for Steve [was: Angel Names] References: Message-ID: <002e01c21718$df7c1460$59a97218@slnt.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: > I almost sent this just to Steve, but then I knew there was at least one > other writer on this list who might find this books interesting and/or > helpful, so I figured I'd just send it along to the list. > > Guide to the Gods > by Marjorie Leach (b. 1911- ) > ISBN: 0-87436-591-0 > published in 1992 by ABC-CLIO Awesomeness. I will definitely need to look around for this one. As well, since we're on the subject of good reference books, I thought I would spread one around that has served me well. It's another Angelology book, but it also has some keen information on the religious contexts in which they appear. It's how I got so keen on Gnoticism, but that's a different story. Check it out! And, hopefully Stacy won't mind me stealing her listing format. ;) Encyclopedia of Angels by Rosemary Ellen Guiley ISBN: 0-8160-3825-2 published in 1996 by Facts on File _____________________ Mark Porter Now Low in Cholesterol From Starshadw at aol.com Tue Jun 18 16:03:54 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 19:03:54 EDT Subject: We're ONLINE!! Message-ID: Yup - the website is at least up. And of course, I already see things I want to change (for some reason, the banner graphic that looked FINE when I previewed it looks awful now but since the name is going to change anyway it doesn't matter. Anyhow, the actual name won't be attached to the site for another 24-72 hours, but if you type the following in: http://66.28.159.153 you can see the site (such as it is). Just click on the Login button. Note we will NOT be gaming until the registration feature is working. That's next on the list, but I had to actually get the website UP before being able to get the registration feature running. This will be the only announcement on the dragarea "regular" list. If you want more information on the site, and want to help add to the content, etc., you need to join the RPG list. Stacy From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Jun 18 16:06:09 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 19:06:09 -0400 Subject: We're ONLINE!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: (snippiness) > It looks good and yes, the banner runs right off the page but over all, I like it a lot. ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info From jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca Tue Jun 18 15:55:08 2002 From: jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca (James and Mary Burbidge) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 18:55:08 -0400 Subject: How did you discover ... ? References: <200206132243.g5DMhJw3000718@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <3D0FBA4C.7F495F67@sympatico.ca> Thomas Yan wrote: > > I'm curious. How did you discover Steve's books, and how did you > learn of this mailing list? > Re discovering Brust: I first read _Jhereg_ in a library copy somewhere back in the early '90s. Re the list: I saw David's announcement on r.a.sf.w. -- James Burbidge jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Jun 18 17:30:35 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 17:30:35 -0700 Subject: Book Ref for Steve [was: Angel Names] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618173000.00a79700@pop3.lvcm.com> At 04:57 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >Guide to the Gods >by Marjorie Leach (b. 1911- ) >ISBN: 0-87436-591-0 >published in 1992 by ABC-CLIO I've ordered it. Thanks again. From scs at di.org Tue Jun 18 17:34:43 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:34:43 -0400 Subject: Marx and Trorsky Message-ID: <20020619003443.GA10448@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Steven Brust wrote: > [ . . . tasty quotes from Trotsky elided . . . ] OK, you've almost convinced me to try again. (For the record, I tried to read The Communist Manifesto in high school and gave it up for reasons I no longer clearly recall -- and did the same with Ayn Rand.) Is there a single volume that you think best presents Trotsky's case and the differences from Marx/Engels/whoever? -- "Every time I see [name deleted], I get the urge to drop my pants and water him. I'm hoping he'll either grow up or take the hint." -me From Starshadw at aol.com Tue Jun 18 17:48:11 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:48:11 EDT Subject: Book Ref for Steve [was: Angel Names] Message-ID: <60.218d4910.2a412ecb@aol.com> In a message dated 6/18/2002 6:30:48 PM Mountain Daylight Time, skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > I've ordered it. Excellent!! I'm glad you're interested. Let me know what you think when you get it. Actually, I really like the idea of everyone on the list sharing their "odd" books. I'm going to look into that other Angel book as well. Anyone else have any "odd" books - referential, research, etc.? Stacy From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Jun 18 18:04:17 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 18:04:17 -0700 Subject: Marx and Trorsky In-Reply-To: <20020619003443.GA10448@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618174425.00a93ec0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 08:34 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, Steve Simmons wrote: >Is there >a single volume that you think best presents Trotsky's case Oh, geez. I don't where to start. _The History of the Russian Revolution_ is a favorite of mine, but it's *big*--three volumes. To me, it reads like an adventure novel; but I have enough familiarity with the history that I don't go screaming from the room in all the confusion among the "Cadets" and the "Social Revolutionaries" etc. etc. _The Revolution Betrayed_ is Trotsky's definitive work on the nature of the Soviet Union, and is probably the best single work that explains what "Trotskyism" is. _My Life_ is another personal favorite of mine, but, again, it's pretty big. And the introduction *sucks*. The one I've re-read most often is _Literature and Revolution_. The trouble is, a great deal of it consists of some brilliant criticism of works and authors you have never heard of. I like it, because I enjoy watching the critical process, but it might drive you nuts. A wee little pamphlet that I like a lot is called _Their Morals and Ours._ I've stolen sections of it for a scene in _The Viscount of Adrilankha,_ so you might get a kick when you come across that scene and recognize my source. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Jun 18 18:06:00 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 18:06:00 -0700 Subject: Book Ref for Steve [was: Angel Names] In-Reply-To: <60.218d4910.2a412ecb@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618180441.00a6a130@pop3.lvcm.com> At 08:48 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 6/18/2002 6:30:48 PM Mountain Daylight Time, >skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > > > > I've ordered it. > >Excellent!! I'm glad you're interested. Let me know what you think when you >get it. Actually, I really like the idea of everyone on the list sharing >their "odd" books. I'm going to look into that other Angel book as well. >Anyone else have any "odd" books - referential, research, etc.? Not really, if we assume that everyone should have a four volume Hungarian-English/English Hungarian dictionary. From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Jun 18 18:13:52 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 21:13:52 -0400 Subject: Odd Ref Books (was: Book Ref for Steve) Message-ID: <40E936B6.5C033968.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Tue, 18 Jun 2002 ?8:48:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Starshadw at aol.com writes: > > Excellent!! ?I'm glad you're interested. ?Let me know what > you think when you get it. ?Actually, I really like the > idea of everyone on the list sharing their "odd" books. > I'm going to look into that other Angel book as well. > Anyone else have any "odd" books - referential, research, > etc.? I don't care much for reading reference books, and when I do, it's generally shallow, pop-science type, like _The Science of Discworld_ (Pratchett, Stewart, Cohen), or _The Cartoon History of the Universe_ (Larry Gonick), or _Chaos: the Making of a Science_ (Gleick). I do have some more serious (and mostly unread) stuff including many collections of Asimov essays, and a two collections of Martin Gardner's. And one of these days I'll get my hands on a cheap copy of _The Art of Computer Programming_.... Hmmm what all have I left out? Oh yeah, Diana Wynne Jones' _Tough Guide to Fantasyland_. --KG From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Jun 18 18:17:38 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 21:17:38 -0400 Subject: Odd Ref Books (was: Book Ref for Steve) In-Reply-To: <40E936B6.5C033968.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <585241C0-8322-11D6-8D7A-00039386187A@adelphia.net> While in England in March, I read the "The Fall of Constantinople". It is a history, but like Steve mentioned about his book, it reads like an adventure novel. It's quite good and is worth reading. ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info From ambyrglow at softhome.net Tue Jun 18 18:18:34 2002 From: ambyrglow at softhome.net (ambyrglow at softhome.net) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 19:18:34 -0600 Subject: Odd Ref Books (was: Book Ref for Steve) In-Reply-To: <40E936B6.5C033968.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <40E936B6.5C033968.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: >> Excellent!! I'm glad you're interested. Let me know what >> you think when you get it. Actually, I really like the >> idea of everyone on the list sharing their "odd" books. >> I'm going to look into that other Angel book as well. >> Anyone else have any "odd" books - referential, research, >> etc.? There's nothing odd about having the complete Oxford English Dictionary, is there? No, of course not. How could anyone live without it? Claire From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Jun 18 18:20:46 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 21:20:46 -0400 Subject: Odd Ref Books (was: Book Ref for Steve) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tuesday, June 18, 2002, at 09:18 PM, ambyrglow at softhome.net wrote: >>> Excellent!! I'm glad you're interested. Let me know what you think >>> when you get it. Actually, I really like the idea of everyone on the >>> list sharing their "odd" books. I'm going to look into that other >>> Angel book as well. >>> Anyone else have any "odd" books - referential, research, >>> etc.? > > There's nothing odd about having the complete Oxford English > Dictionary, is there? No, of course not. How could anyone live > without it? > Claire > I have a thesaurus written in 1910 on bookshelf, because you never know when you'll need an archaic or obsolete word. > ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Jun 18 18:28:18 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 18:28:18 -0700 Subject: Odd Ref Books (was: Book Ref for Steve) In-Reply-To: References: <40E936B6.5C033968.00048EA6@aol.com> <40E936B6.5C033968.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618182658.00a53970@pop3.lvcm.com> At 07:18 PM 6/18/2002 -0600, ambyrglow at softhome.net wrote: >>>Excellent!! I'm glad you're interested. Let me know what you think >>>when you get it. Actually, I really like the idea of everyone on the >>>list sharing their "odd" books. I'm going to look into that other Angel >>>book as well. >>>Anyone else have any "odd" books - referential, research, >>>etc.? > >There's nothing odd about having the complete Oxford English Dictionary, >is there? No, of course not. How could anyone live without it? No, the complete, 13 volume edition is not odd, just pleasing. Sometimes I go over and just stroke it. You can have my dog, and even my computer. But leave me my OED. From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Jun 18 18:30:12 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 21:30:12 -0400 Subject: Odd Ref Books (was: Book Ref for Steve) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618182658.00a53970@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <19C6645E-8324-11D6-893C-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Tuesday, June 18, 2002, at 09:28 PM, Steven Brust wrote: > At 07:18 PM 6/18/2002 -0600, ambyrglow at softhome.net wrote: >>>> Excellent!! I'm glad you're interested. Let me know what you think >>>> when you get it. Actually, I really like the idea of everyone on >>>> the list sharing their "odd" books. I'm going to look into that >>>> other Angel book as well. >>>> Anyone else have any "odd" books - referential, research, >>>> etc.? >> >> There's nothing odd about having the complete Oxford English >> Dictionary, is there? No, of course not. How could anyone live >> without it? > > No, the complete, 13 volume edition is not odd, just pleasing. > Sometimes I go over and just stroke it. > > You can have my dog, and even my computer. But leave me my OED. > You have a dog? ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info From ijamie at sympatico.ca Tue Jun 18 18:33:27 2002 From: ijamie at sympatico.ca (Ian sympatico) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 21:33:27 -0400 Subject: Odd Ref Books (was: Book Ref for Steve) References: <585241C0-8322-11D6-8D7A-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <001201c21731$504487a0$82845f41@idirect.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Turkel" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 9:17 PM Subject: Re: Odd Ref Books (was: Book Ref for Steve) > While in England in March, I read the "The Fall of Constantinople". It > is a history, but like Steve mentioned about his book, it reads like an > adventure novel. It's quite good and is worth reading. Sounds Good, I am into Byzantine history Ian From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Jun 18 18:38:20 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 18:38:20 -0700 Subject: Odd Ref Books (was: Book Ref for Steve) In-Reply-To: <19C6645E-8324-11D6-893C-00039386187A@adelphia.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618182658.00a53970@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618183710.00a61160@pop3.lvcm.com> At 09:30 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: >You have a dog? Nope. No dog here. No dogs anywhere nearby. That brown thing looking brainless on my couch is, um, a lump of fabric. Yeah, yeah, that's it. From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Jun 18 18:39:04 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 21:39:04 -0400 Subject: Odd Ref Books (was: Book Ref for Steve) In-Reply-To: <001201c21731$504487a0$82845f41@idirect.com> Message-ID: <56F25E28-8325-11D6-893C-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Tuesday, June 18, 2002, at 09:33 PM, Ian sympatico wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Turkel" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 9:17 PM > Subject: Re: Odd Ref Books (was: Book Ref for Steve) > > >> While in England in March, I read the "The Fall of Constantinople". It >> is a history, but like Steve mentioned about his book, it reads like an >> adventure novel. It's quite good and is worth reading. > > Sounds Good, I am into Byzantine history > > Ian It's called "The Fall of Constantinople 1453" By Steven Runciman Cambridge University Press ISBN 0-521-039832-0 It paints a sad portraits of how the mistakes by the Byzantines in the centuries before the fall only hastened their demise and that if if any one mistake had not been made, Constantinople might have lasted a few centuries longer. Also interesting is the last Emperor, Constantine, was the right man for the job--he was just born about 250 years too late. ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info From Starshadw at aol.com Tue Jun 18 18:39:38 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 21:39:38 EDT Subject: Book Ref for Steve [was: Angel Names] Message-ID: In a message dated 6/18/2002 7:12:49 PM Mountain Daylight Time, skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > Hungarian-English/English Hungarian dictionary Why not? I've got language dictionaries for..... Latin, Welsh, Irish Gaelic, Russian, Japanese, Chinese, Egyptian Hieroglyphics, French (may have left a couple out there). And then, of course, there are the online dictionaries I have bookmarked. Stacy From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Jun 18 18:40:09 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 21:40:09 -0400 Subject: Odd Ref Books (was: Book Ref for Steve) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618183710.00a61160@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <7D7DB9B6-8325-11D6-893C-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Tuesday, June 18, 2002, at 09:38 PM, Steven Brust wrote: > At 09:30 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: > >> You have a dog? > > Nope. No dog here. No dogs anywhere nearby. That brown thing looking > brainless on my couch is, um, a lump of fabric. Yeah, yeah, that's it. > My friend in Las Vegas walks her dog behind her house and carries a pistol in case of rattlers. ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info From rick at 404.978.org Tue Jun 18 18:42:57 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 21:42:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FabricDog In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618183710.00a61160@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618182658.00a53970@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020618183710.00a61160@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <3688.192.168.1.1.1024450977.squirrel@404.978.org> Steven Brust said: > At 09:30 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: > >>You have a dog? > > Nope. No dog here. No dogs anywhere nearby. That brown thing looking > brainless on my couch is, um, a lump of fabric. Yeah, yeah, that's > it. Did this just become a stalker-esque FAQ question? Q: Do you have any pets? If so, what are their names and species? -Rick http://rick.978.org/ From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Jun 18 18:46:46 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 18:46:46 -0700 Subject: Odd Ref Books (was: Book Ref for Steve) In-Reply-To: <7D7DB9B6-8325-11D6-893C-00039386187A@adelphia.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618183710.00a61160@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618184558.00a44020@pop3.lvcm.com> At 09:40 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: >On Tuesday, June 18, 2002, at 09:38 PM, Steven Brust wrote: > >>At 09:30 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: >> >>>You have a dog? >> >>Nope. No dog here. No dogs anywhere nearby. That brown thing looking >>brainless on my couch is, um, a lump of fabric. Yeah, yeah, that's it. >My friend in Las Vegas walks her dog behind her house and carries a pistol >in case of rattlers. I should do the same. That way, if my dog attacks a rattler, I can shoot the dog to protect the snake. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Jun 18 18:48:10 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 18:48:10 -0700 Subject: FabricDog In-Reply-To: <3688.192.168.1.1.1024450977.squirrel@404.978.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618183710.00a61160@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020618182658.00a53970@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020618183710.00a61160@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618184716.00a44790@pop3.lvcm.com> At 09:42 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, Rick Castello wrote: >Steven Brust said: > > At 09:30 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: > > > >>You have a dog? > > > > Nope. No dog here. No dogs anywhere nearby. That brown thing looking > > brainless on my couch is, um, a lump of fabric. Yeah, yeah, that's > > it. > > Did this just become a stalker-esque FAQ question? > > Q: Do you have any pets? If so, what are their names and species? The dog about whom I am in denial is no threat to stalkers. If a burglar broke into my house, he'd hold the flashlight for him. From rick at 404.978.org Tue Jun 18 18:54:01 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 21:54:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FabricDog In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618184716.00a44790@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618183710.00a61160@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020618182658.00a53970@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020618183710.00a61160@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020618184716.00a44790@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <3750.192.168.1.1.1024451641.squirrel@404.978.org> Steven Brust said: > At 09:42 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, Rick Castello wrote: >>Steven Brust said: >> > At 09:30 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: >> > >> >>You have a dog? >> > >> > Nope. No dog here. No dogs anywhere nearby. That brown thing >> > looking >> > brainless on my couch is, um, a lump of fabric. Yeah, yeah, that's >> > it. >> >> Did this just become a stalker-esque FAQ question? >> >> Q: Do you have any pets? If so, what are their names and >> species? > > The dog about whom I am in denial is no threat to stalkers. If a > burglar broke into my house, he'd hold the flashlight for him. I misspoke, perhaps... I meant the sort of question that someone stalking a favorite author might ask. :) -Rick From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Jun 18 18:59:55 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 21:59:55 -0400 Subject: FabricDog In-Reply-To: <3750.192.168.1.1.1024451641.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: <40180D9E-8328-11D6-ADB7-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Tuesday, June 18, 2002, at 09:54 PM, Rick Castello wrote: > Steven Brust said: >> At 09:42 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, Rick Castello wrote: >>> Steven Brust said: >>>> At 09:30 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: >>>> >>>>> You have a dog? >>>> >>>> Nope. No dog here. No dogs anywhere nearby. That brown thing >>>> looking >>>> brainless on my couch is, um, a lump of fabric. Yeah, yeah, that's >>>> it. >>> >>> Did this just become a stalker-esque FAQ question? >>> >>> Q: Do you have any pets? If so, what are their names and >>> species? >> >> The dog about whom I am in denial is no threat to stalkers. If a >> burglar broke into my house, he'd hold the flashlight for him. > > I misspoke, perhaps... I meant the sort of question that someone > stalking a favorite author might ask. :) > > -Rick I'm an author myself and I would hope no one would stalk me. I have better things to do with my life instead of stalking, like writing books, reading, sleeping... > ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info From rick at 404.978.org Tue Jun 18 19:20:46 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 22:20:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FabricDog In-Reply-To: <40180D9E-8328-11D6-ADB7-00039386187A@adelphia.net> References: <3750.192.168.1.1.1024451641.squirrel@404.978.org> <40180D9E-8328-11D6-ADB7-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <3945.192.168.1.1.1024453246.squirrel@404.978.org> Chris Turkel said: > I'm an author myself and I would hope no one would stalk me. I have > better things to do with my life instead of stalking, like writing > books, reading, sleeping... Indeed. Nor am I the sort to stalk. When I read, "You have a dog?" I imagined the sort of thing that may have appeared in an 80's mens magazine: "Likes, dislikes, pets, turn-ons, turn-offs, favorite color..." and other foolishness to make you groan. :) -Rick From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Jun 18 19:22:50 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 22:22:50 -0400 Subject: FabricDog In-Reply-To: <3945.192.168.1.1.1024453246.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: <73A29EA5-832B-11D6-ADB7-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Tuesday, June 18, 2002, at 10:20 PM, Rick Castello wrote: > Chris Turkel said: >> I'm an author myself and I would hope no one would stalk me. I have >> better things to do with my life instead of stalking, like writing >> books, reading, sleeping... > > Indeed. Nor am I the sort to stalk. > > When I read, "You have a dog?" I imagined the sort of thing that > may have appeared in an 80's mens magazine: > > "Likes, dislikes, pets, turn-ons, turn-offs, favorite color..." and > other foolishness to make you groan. :) > > -Rick Oh ya I remember those LOL. It was more surprise than anything else because the bios in Steve's books mention a bird, but never a dog but since he is in denial, that explains it. :) > > ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info From rick at 404.978.org Tue Jun 18 19:31:14 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 22:31:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FabricDog In-Reply-To: <73A29EA5-832B-11D6-ADB7-00039386187A@adelphia.net> References: <3945.192.168.1.1.1024453246.squirrel@404.978.org> <73A29EA5-832B-11D6-ADB7-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <3991.192.168.1.1.1024453874.squirrel@404.978.org> Chris Turkel said: > On Tuesday, June 18, 2002, at 10:20 PM, Rick Castello wrote: >> When I read, "You have a dog?" I imagined the sort of thing that >> may have appeared in an 80's mens magazine: >> >> "Likes, dislikes, pets, turn-ons, turn-offs, favorite color..." >> and other foolishness to make you groan. :) >> >> -Rick > Oh ya I remember those LOL. It was more surprise than anything else > because the bios in Steve's books mention a bird, but never a dog but > since he is in denial, that explains it. :) Perhaps, though a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, a bird in a book is worth a faux hound on the sofa? I am firmly of the opinion that when one is fortunate enough to meet an author of which one is a fan, it is one's duty to to purchase said author an adult beverage, if they are of a mind to drink one. If they will accept multiple adult beverages, any resulting incriminating photographs are, by unspoken rule, not to appear on the internet. :) -Rick From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Jun 18 19:33:34 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 22:33:34 -0400 Subject: FabricDog In-Reply-To: <3991.192.168.1.1.1024453874.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: > (snippiness) > > I am firmly of the opinion that when one is fortunate enough > to meet an author of which one is a fan, it is one's duty to > to purchase said author an adult beverage, if they are of a > mind to drink one. > > If they will accept multiple adult beverages, any resulting > incriminating photographs are, by unspoken rule, not to > appear on the internet. :) > > -Rick > If I ever met Steve the first thing I would do would shake his hand then ask him if he will teach me some poker tricks :) > > ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info From rick at 404.978.org Tue Jun 18 19:43:49 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 22:43:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FabricDog In-Reply-To: References: <3991.192.168.1.1.1024453874.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: <4170.192.168.1.1.1024454629.squirrel@404.978.org> Chris Turkel said: >> (snippiness) >> >> I am firmly of the opinion that when one is fortunate enough to >> meet an author of which one is a fan, it is one's duty to to >> purchase said author an adult beverage, if they are of a mind to >> drink one. >> >> If they will accept multiple adult beverages, any resulting >> incriminating photographs are, by unspoken rule, not to >> appear on the internet. :) >> >> -Rick >> > If I ever met Steve the first thing I would do would shake his hand > then ask him if he will teach me some poker tricks :) Indeed, to actually play poker with the man himself would be something beyond wonderful. :) Hey Steve, have you ever played in the WRGPT? I keep missing the window, and haven't played in a few years. -Rick From scs at di.org Tue Jun 18 19:35:53 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 22:35:53 -0400 Subject: Marx and Trotsky Message-ID: <20020619023552.GA11674@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Steven Brust writes: > The History of the Russian Revolution_ is a favorite of mine, but it's > *big*--three volumes. To me, it reads like an adventure novel; but I have > enough familiarity with the history that I don't go screaming from the room > in all the confusion among the "Cadets" and the "Social Revolutionaries" > etc. etc. Well, it's still in print and even at a reasonable price - Amazon has a one-volume paperback for just over $25. At 1300 pages, I assume it's all three volumes. Does that seem to match up with the three volumes you have? If so, I'll order it after we get back from vacation. -- ``You gotta distinguish between telling a tale for amusement, as in "Well, there I was facing down the crowds at Riotcon...", and telling it for the record, as in "Well, you see, officer, it happened like this...". (Actually, that might not be the best example.)'' -- Chris Clayton, in private email From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Jun 18 20:17:12 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:17:12 -0700 Subject: FabricDog In-Reply-To: <3991.192.168.1.1.1024453874.squirrel@404.978.org> References: <73A29EA5-832B-11D6-ADB7-00039386187A@adelphia.net> <3945.192.168.1.1.1024453246.squirrel@404.978.org> <73A29EA5-832B-11D6-ADB7-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618201538.00a9bcb0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:31 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, Rick Castello wrote: > If they will accept multiple adult beverages, any resulting > incriminating photographs are, by unspoken rule, not to > appear on the internet. :) 10 feet of rope: $3.49 Riding crop: $12.27 Digital camera: $49.98 Your ass on the internet: Priceless. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Jun 18 20:18:26 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:18:26 -0700 Subject: FabricDog In-Reply-To: References: <3991.192.168.1.1.1024453874.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618201726.00aa56e0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:33 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: >If I ever met Steve the first thing I would do would shake his hand then >ask him if he will teach me some poker tricks :) I will then shake your hand and try to explain that you don't win at poker with tricks. You win at bridge with tricks. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Jun 18 20:21:43 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:21:43 -0700 Subject: FabricDog In-Reply-To: <4170.192.168.1.1.1024454629.squirrel@404.978.org> References: <3991.192.168.1.1.1024453874.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618201857.00aa20c0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:43 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, Rick Castello wrote: > Hey Steve, have you ever played in the WRGPT? I keep missing > the window, and haven't played in a few years. What's irritating is that I *know* what that stands for, only it keeps sliding around the corner of my memory. And, hey, it isn't hard to play poker with me. These days, I'm spending 30-35 hours in the card room at the Palms. Show up in Vegas, walk into the Palms card room, and ask if Pirate is around. Texas Hold 'em, 4-8 with a half kill, $1 & $2 blinds. $100 buy-in should keep you in the game for a long time, unless you play very badly indeed, or get horribly unlucky. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Jun 18 20:23:29 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:23:29 -0700 Subject: Marx and Trotsky In-Reply-To: <20020619023552.GA11674@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618202203.00aba0f0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:35 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, Steve Simmons wrote: >Steven Brust writes: > > > The History of the Russian Revolution_ is a favorite of mine, but it's > > *big*--three volumes. To me, it reads like an adventure novel; but I have > > enough familiarity with the history that I don't go screaming from the room > > in all the confusion among the "Cadets" and the "Social Revolutionaries" > > etc. etc. > >Well, it's still in print and even at a reasonable price - Amazon has >a one-volume paperback for just over $25. At 1300 pages, I assume it's >all three volumes. Does that seem to match up with the three volumes >you have? If so, I'll order it after we get back from vacation. Yep. That sounds right. From rachael at daedala.net Tue Jun 18 20:24:06 2002 From: rachael at daedala.net (Rachael Lininger) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 22:24:06 -0500 (CDT) Subject: FabricDog In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618201726.00aa56e0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: On Jun 18, Steven Brust said: >At 10:33 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: > >>If I ever met Steve the first thing I would do would shake his hand then >>ask him if he will teach me some poker tricks :) > >I will then shake your hand and try to explain that you don't win at poker >with tricks. You win at bridge with tricks. So now we know the secret of THE LAST CONTRACT! Rachael -- Rachael From the Dilbert Newsletter: Lininger "You should talk to her. rachael@ She is a minefield of information." daedala.net From rick at 404.978.org Tue Jun 18 20:25:58 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 23:25:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FabricDog In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618201857.00aa20c0@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <3991.192.168.1.1.1024453874.squirrel@404.978.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020618201857.00aa20c0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <4353.192.168.1.1.1024457158.squirrel@404.978.org> World Rec.Games.Poker Tournament- the poker by email tourney. Lots of fun, interesting play. A little slow, but decent for email. I'd point you to a site, but most of them are down or other foolishness. Next time I'm in the neighborhood, I'll have to stop in and pay my respects... :) -Rick Steven Brust said: > At 10:43 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, Rick Castello wrote: > >> Hey Steve, have you ever played in the WRGPT? I keep missing the >> window, and haven't played in a few years. > > What's irritating is that I *know* what that stands for, only it keeps > sliding around the corner of my memory. > > And, hey, it isn't hard to play poker with me. These days, I'm > spending 30-35 hours in the card room at the Palms. Show up in Vegas, > walk into the Palms card room, and ask if Pirate is around. Texas > Hold 'em, 4-8 with a half kill, $1 & $2 blinds. $100 buy-in should > keep you in the game for a long time, unless you play very badly > indeed, or get horribly unlucky. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Tue Jun 18 20:43:13 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:43:13 -0700 Subject: Odd Ref Books (was: Book Ref for Steve) Message-ID: Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > > Excellent!! I'm glad you're interested. Let me know what you think when you > get it. Actually, I really like the idea of everyone on the list sharing > their "odd" books. I'm going to look into that other Angel book as well. > Anyone else have any "odd" books - referential, research, etc.? Well, I might have mentioned I was a German major. I wrote my senior thesis on three of Goethe's plays, and I translated all of my supporting passages myself, so in addition to having all sorts of German literature, I've got several dictionaries. I think my favorite is the Oxford-Duden collaboration. And then there's my random collection of RPG research material... But I think my oddest item might be a collection of science fiction short stories, as well as essays on writing science fiction, all in German. I bought it for about 2 DM, and it fits in the palm of your hand. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Jun 18 22:27:26 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 22:27:26 -0700 Subject: FabricDog In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618201726.00aa56e0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618222700.00a9b9e0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:24 PM 6/18/2002 -0500, Rachael Lininger wrote: >On Jun 18, Steven Brust said: > >At 10:33 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: > > > >>If I ever met Steve the first thing I would do would shake his hand then > >>ask him if he will teach me some poker tricks :) > > > >I will then shake your hand and try to explain that you don't win at poker > >with tricks. You win at bridge with tricks. > >So now we know the secret of THE LAST CONTRACT! 3nt re-doubled, of course. Don't spread it around, though. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Jun 18 22:28:44 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 22:28:44 -0700 Subject: FabricDog In-Reply-To: <4353.192.168.1.1.1024457158.squirrel@404.978.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618201857.00aa20c0@pop3.lvcm.com> <3991.192.168.1.1.1024453874.squirrel@404.978.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020618201857.00aa20c0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618222743.00a99580@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:25 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, Rick Castello wrote: > World Rec.Games.Poker Tournament- the poker by email tourney. > Lots of fun, interesting play. A little slow, but decent for email. Right, right. I used to subscribe to rec.gambling.poker, and they'd talk about it. I used to play irc poker pretty regularly, but that's been down too for a while. From mss2 at attbi.com Tue Jun 18 22:54:23 2002 From: mss2 at attbi.com (Michael S. Schiffer) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 00:54:23 -0500 Subject: Byzantium In-Reply-To: <56F25E28-8325-11D6-893C-00039386187A@adelphia.net> References: <001201c21731$504487a0$82845f41@idirect.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618231406.03be7cc0@mail.attbi.com> At 09:39 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: >On Tuesday, June 18, 2002, at 09:33 PM, Ian sympatico wrote: >>From: "Chris Turkel" >>>While in England in March, I read the "The Fall of Constantinople". It >>>is a history, but like Steve mentioned about his book, it reads like an >>>adventure novel. It's quite good and is worth reading. >> >>Sounds Good, I am into Byzantine history Me too. Got into it with Asimov's _The Forgotten Empire_, and took a year-long sequence on Byzantium in college. (With a meeting on Wednesday nights-- the same night as the Science Fiction Club met. There were three members in the class, so we wound up moving the meeting day for that year.) >It's called "The Fall of Constantinople 1453" >By Steven Runciman >Cambridge University Press >ISBN 0-521-039832-0 > >It paints a sad portraits of how the mistakes by the Byzantines in the >centuries before the fall only hastened their demise and that if if any >one mistake had not been made, Constantinople might have lasted a few >centuries longer. I second the recommendation for the book-- one of the best and most entertaining narrative histories I've ever read. But IMHO, Constantinople wasn't going to survive the gunpowder age for centuries more without substantial outside help. (They'd already gotten an extra fifty years out of Tamerlane's attacks on the Turks' opposite frontier.) To really give them much more staying power, you probably have to reverse Manzikert, or at least the Fourth Crusade. (As it was, there aren't a lot of empires that can beat their run, whether it's measured from the beginnings of Rome, from Augustus, or from Constantine I.) >Also interesting is the last Emperor, Constantine, was the right man for >the job--he was just born about 250 years too late. You have to feel sorry for him. He did everything right, to the limits of his ability, and he even died well. Mike From Starshadw at aol.com Tue Jun 18 22:59:08 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 01:59:08 EDT Subject: More "odd" books Message-ID: <136.f8b3b4e.2a4177ac@aol.com> Here are a few others: The Sex Contract (anthro text) Helen E. Fisher 0-688-01599-9 pub 1982 by Quill Dictionary of Chinese Symbols Wolfram Eberhard 0-415-00228-1 pub 1983 by Routledge I have two copies of Sun Tzu: The Art of War trans. Samuel B. Griffith 0-19-501476-6 pub 1963 Oxford Uni trans. J.H. Huang 0-688-12400-3 pub 1993 by Quill Cunningham's Encyclopedia of Magical Herbs Scott Cunningham 0-87542-122-9 pub 1982 by Llewellyn From ijamie at sympatico.ca Wed Jun 19 04:51:13 2002 From: ijamie at sympatico.ca (Ian sympatico) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 07:51:13 -0400 Subject: Byzantium References: <001201c21731$504487a0$82845f41@idirect.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020618231406.03be7cc0@mail.attbi.com> Message-ID: <005901c21787$9cdabd40$82845f41@idirect.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael S. Schiffer" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 1:54 AM Subject: Byzantium > >It's called "The Fall of Constantinople 1453" > >By Steven Runciman > >Cambridge University Press > >ISBN 0-521-039832-0 Found it on the Chapters.ca website, I am Canadian, Eh. The ISBN is slightly different, 0-521-398320 but this is for a trade paperback. The book is not very expensive and seeing as vacation is coming up I think I will purchase it. And to change the topic again, is there a meaning behind the ISBN code? From zizban at adelphia.net Wed Jun 19 07:27:01 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 10:27:01 -0400 Subject: Byzantium In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618231406.03be7cc0@mail.attbi.com> Message-ID: <9E83C9C6-8390-11D6-83B8-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Wednesday, June 19, 2002, at 01:54 AM, Michael S. Schiffer wrote: >> > > I second the recommendation for the book-- one of the best and most > entertaining narrative histories I've ever read. But IMHO, > Constantinople wasn't going to survive the gunpowder age for centuries > more without substantial outside help. (They'd already gotten an extra > fifty years out of Tamerlane's attacks on the Turks' opposite > frontier.) To really give them much more staying power, you probably > have to reverse Manzikert, or at least the Fourth Crusade. (As it was, > there aren't a lot of empires that can beat their run, whether it's > measured from the beginnings of Rome, from Augustus, or from > Constantine I.) Probably the Fourth Crusade really did them in. Even at the very end, the Turks were ready to give up when they found the open sally gate. They would have porbbaly been back next year, but you never know, Constantinople lasted about a 1,000 years, picking up almost where the old Roman Empire left off. A remarkable run indeed. Arrogance in both Constantinople and in the West prevented aid from coming in time. > >> Also interesting is the last Emperor, Constantine, was the right man >> for the job--he was just born about 250 years too late. > > You have to feel sorry for him. He did everything right, to the limits > of his ability, and he even died well. Ya, The book painted a fair portrait of a man who faced incredible odds with great fortitude and character. > > Mike > > > ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info From rick at 404.978.org Wed Jun 19 08:14:42 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 11:14:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Byzantium In-Reply-To: <005901c21787$9cdabd40$82845f41@idirect.com> References: <001201c21731$504487a0$82845f41@idirect.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020618231406.03be7cc0@mail.attbi.com> <005901c21787$9cdabd40$82845f41@idirect.com> Message-ID: <1553.192.168.1.1.1024499682.squirrel@404.978.org> Ian sympatico said: > And to change the topic again, is there a meaning behind the ISBN code? http://www.isbn.org/ :) -Rick From rick at 404.978.org Wed Jun 19 08:21:53 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 11:21:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ISBN Explained In-Reply-To: <1553.192.168.1.1.1024499682.squirrel@404.978.org> References: <001201c21731$504487a0$82845f41@idirect.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020618231406.03be7cc0@mail.attbi.com> <005901c21787$9cdabd40$82845f41@idirect.com> <1553.192.168.1.1.1024499682.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: <1589.192.168.1.1.1024500113.squirrel@404.978.org> Rick Castello said: > Ian sympatico said: > >> And to change the topic again, is there a meaning behind the ISBN >> code? > > http://www.isbn.org/ :) A better resource for explanation: (Acrobat reader formatted page) http://www.centralplainsbook.com/forms/PDF%20Files/isbn.pdf "The International Standard Book Number (ISBN) is a worldwide identification system which has been in use in our country and abroad since the late 1960?s. The number itself is meant to identify you as a publisher and the individual version of the book. For instance, an ISBN of 0-961327-22-3 translates into the following: ?0? identifies the language, in this case it?s the United States. ?961327? is the publisher prefix which identifies your publishing company. This number is assigned to you by R.R. Bowker. ?22? identifies the title and edition of the book. You need a new number here for each incarnation of the book, like a foreign language edition or a Braille edition. ?3? is a mathematical check number that checks the accuracy of the other digits. It?s important to note that you need an ISBN number in today?s marketplace no matter how many copies you intend to sell. The ISBN catalogs the book in a system that is widely used internationally so that your book can be distributed on a larger scale if need be. It also adds a professional appearance to your book and to your publishing company." Good question. I'm glad I had a good excuse to look it up! -Rick From chuning88 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 19 08:45:12 2002 From: chuning88 at yahoo.com (Chris Huning) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 08:45:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Marx and Trorsky In-Reply-To: <20020619003443.GA10448@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <20020619154512.89496.qmail@web13902.mail.yahoo.com> I did read throught the the Communist Manifesto and was rather disapointed. It read like what it was, a very brief, rushed attempt to document an ideology. It seemed poorly argued, the conclusion rushed, and not well supported. Chris --- Steve Simmons wrote: > Steven Brust wrote: > > > [ . . . tasty quotes from Trotsky elided . . . ] > > OK, you've almost convinced me to try again. (For > the record, I tried > to read The Communist Manifesto in high school and > gave it up for reasons > I no longer clearly recall -- and did the same with > Ayn Rand.) Is there > a single volume that you think best presents > Trotsky's case and the > differences from Marx/Engels/whoever? > -- > "Every time I see [name deleted], I get the urge > to drop my pants > and water him. I'm hoping he'll either grow up or > take the hint." > -me __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From dragaera at juima.org Wed Jun 19 11:18:24 2002 From: dragaera at juima.org (Sander) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 20:18:24 +0200 Subject: FabricDog References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618182658.00a53970@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020618183710.00a61160@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <3D10CAF0.8090906@juima.org> Steven Brust wrote: > At 09:30 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: > >>You have a dog? > > Nope. No dog here. No dogs anywhere nearby. That brown thing looking > brainless on my couch is, um, a lump of fabric. Yeah, yeah, that's it. Oh yeah, I wondered about that - does John Henry Holliday truly tolerate Miska? (Yes, I had to dig up my copy of Dragon to remember those names.) We have a parrot (named Falko) very much like him (yellow-headed Amazon, but with a gray beak, so I have no idea what kind of parrot it _really_ is) but he quickly scares away any dog or cat foolish enough to venture near him. (He's great with little children though. The only reason I still have all my fingers.) :) May you always find shade and water, Sander From zizban at adelphia.net Wed Jun 19 12:16:47 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 15:16:47 -0400 Subject: FabricDog In-Reply-To: <3D10CAF0.8090906@juima.org> Message-ID: <194F7B28-83B9-11D6-8E7A-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Wednesday, June 19, 2002, at 02:18 PM, Sander wrote: > Steven Brust wrote: >> At 09:30 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: >>> You have a dog? >> Nope. No dog here. No dogs anywhere nearby. That brown thing >> looking brainless on my couch is, um, a lump of fabric. Yeah, yeah, >> that's it. > > Oh yeah, I wondered about that - does John Henry Holliday truly > tolerate Miska? (Yes, I had to dig up my copy of Dragon to remember > those names.) We have a parrot (named Falko) very much like him > (yellow-headed Amazon, but with a gray beak, so I have no idea what > kind of parrot it _really_ is) but he quickly scares away any dog or > cat foolish enough to venture near him. (He's great with little > children though. The only reason I still have all my fingers.) :) > > May you always find shade and water, > Sander > > I have a pair of a cockateels that my wife had before we were married, one gray, one yellow. The gray one (named Beula Bird) lays eggs still and the yellow one, Pagan, makes cat calls. ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info From corwin at mpls.cx Wed Jun 19 13:19:10 2002 From: corwin at mpls.cx (corwin at mpls.cx) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 15:19:10 -0500 Subject: FabricDog In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618222700.00a9b9e0@pop3.lvcm.com> References: Message-ID: <3D10A0EE.19357.464A97CC@localhost> On 18 Jun 2002 at 22:27, Steven Brust wrote: > At 10:24 PM 6/18/2002 -0500, Rachael Lininger wrote: > >On Jun 18, Steven Brust said: > > >At 10:33 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: > > > > > >>If I ever met Steve the first thing I would do would shake his hand then > > >>ask him if he will teach me some poker tricks :) > > > > > >I will then shake your hand and try to explain that you don't win at poker > > >with tricks. You win at bridge with tricks. > > > >So now we know the secret of THE LAST CONTRACT! > > 3nt re-doubled, of course. Don't spread it around, though. > I'm sure he'll change his mind on that, it's a passing thing, with him. From corwin at mpls.cx Wed Jun 19 13:49:51 2002 From: corwin at mpls.cx (corwin at mpls.cx) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 15:49:51 -0500 Subject: FabricDog In-Reply-To: <3D10CAF0.8090906@juima.org> Message-ID: <3D10A81F.27239.4666AEE1@localhost> On 19 Jun 2002 at 20:18, Sander wrote: > Steven Brust wrote: > > At 09:30 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: > > > >>You have a dog? > > > > Nope. No dog here. No dogs anywhere nearby. That brown thing looking > > brainless on my couch is, um, a lump of fabric. Yeah, yeah, that's it. > > Oh yeah, I wondered about that - does John Henry Holliday truly tolerate > Miska? Given he's already said he can't locate and dogs, we can only speculate; I'm sure Doc would ferociously defend his Dad from any occupation or incursion by dogs. Especially if brown dogs. (Yes, I had to dig up my copy of Dragon to remember those names.) > We have a parrot (named Falko) very much like him (yellow-headed Amazon, > but with a gray beak, so I have no idea what kind of parrot it _really_ > is) but he quickly scares away any dog or cat foolish enough to venture > near him. He was pretty nice to my cat, though she was mean to him. She stop in front of his cage to his if he climbed to the bottom of his recreational thing-ee when she walked by. If that made sence... Really though, he's pretty sweet - for a bird. Maybe a little more shy than you might expect, and -of course- he likes to be center stage sometimes too, which is kinda cute right there. I particulaly remember how well he could, and still can do our friend Liz's laugh. She has a marvolious laugh too. And it would make her laugh, which would encourgage him. Hehehehe. From anthony at netdocuments.com Wed Jun 19 13:57:31 2002 From: anthony at netdocuments.com (Anthony Tedjamulia) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 14:57:31 -0600 Subject: Has anyone noticed. . . Message-ID: Has anyone noticed how closely Alderac Entertainment (http://www.alderac.com/) modeled the Clans in Leged of the Five Rings (http://l5r.alderac.com/) after the houses in Dragaera? (Mantis Clan ~ House Orca, Lion Clan ~ House Dragon, Scorpion Clan ~ House Jhereg) From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jun 19 16:05:28 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 16:05:28 -0700 Subject: FabricDog In-Reply-To: <3D10CAF0.8090906@juima.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020618182658.00a53970@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020618183710.00a61160@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020619160425.0234c970@pop3.lvcm.com> At 08:18 PM 6/19/2002 +0200, Sander wrote: >Steven Brust wrote: >>At 09:30 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: >> >>>You have a dog? >>Nope. No dog here. No dogs anywhere nearby. That brown thing looking >>brainless on my couch is, um, a lump of fabric. Yeah, yeah, that's it. > >Oh yeah, I wondered about that - does John Henry Holliday truly tolerate >Miska? Yes, as long as Miska keeps those long, flappy ears out of beak-range. Doc sends his respects to Falco. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jun 19 16:15:28 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 16:15:28 -0700 Subject: Marx and Trorsky In-Reply-To: <20020619154512.89496.qmail@web13902.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20020619003443.GA10448@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020619155348.00acac60@pop3.lvcm.com> At 08:45 AM 6/19/2002 -0700, Chris Huning wrote: >I did read throught the the Communist Manifesto and >was rather disapointed. It read like what it was, a >very brief, rushed attempt to document an ideology. It >seemed poorly argued, the conclusion rushed, and not >well supported. I'd like to suggest you find a dictionary and look up the word, "Manifesto." One might say that Marx's and Engle's entire body of work consisted of backing up, sentence by sentence, the Communist Manifesto. "The history of all hitherto existing societies..." _Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State_ "...resulting in either..." _The Peasant War in Germany_ etc etc From Starshadw at aol.com Wed Jun 19 17:09:46 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 20:09:46 EDT Subject: Dragaeran Gender Equality?? Message-ID: <144.103be2c2.2a42774a@aol.com> I can't for the life of me decide. My concern is for the nobility - is it strictly a father-son inheritance (with those rare exceptions where a woman gets her hands on a title, but then must follow the rules and pass it on at her death to the eldest male heir)? Or are Dragaerans equal in that a woman can hold a title in her own right, even if she has brothers/uncles/other male relatives who could also hold it? And say we have a father who is a Duke. He has four children - the eldest is a daughter, followed by a second daughter, then two sons. To whom would his title go to when he died? Simply the eldest heir - in this case the daughter? Or would it skip the two daughters and go to the eldest SON? Stacy From lisa at spindot.com Wed Jun 19 21:36:32 2002 From: lisa at spindot.com (Lisa Grant Coffin) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 00:36:32 -0400 Subject: Dragaeran Gender Equality?? References: <144.103be2c2.2a42774a@aol.com> Message-ID: <00b601c21814$0fc7f390$1401a8c0@Spencer> Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > I can't for the life of me decide. My concern is for the nobility - > is it strictly a father-son inheritance (with those rare exceptions > where a woman gets her hands on a title, but then must follow the > rules and pass it on at her death to the eldest male heir)? Or are > Dragaerans equal in that a woman can hold a title in her own right, > even if she has brothers/uncles/other male relatives who could also > hold it? this is just a guess. given the manner in which women live in the Empire, wielding swords, serving in battalions, acting as Warlord, etc; coupled with the Aliera-as-Heir and Norathar-as-Heir scenarios, i would draw the conclusion that nobility inherences are not gender based. the only anomoly i have thus far seen within this context is the example of the Jhereg organization. there seems to be a gender-based deliniation in employment status. aside from Kiera, and a few assassins we know, most of the women in this organization appear to be sorceresses in the Left Hand. lisa grant coffin From chuning88 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 20 11:00:22 2002 From: chuning88 at yahoo.com (Chris Huning) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 11:00:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Marx and Trorsky In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020619155348.00acac60@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <20020620180022.96412.qmail@web13903.mail.yahoo.com> > I'd like to suggest you find a dictionary and look > up the word, "Manifesto." Well, yes now that you mention it. Of course being a manifesto (by definition) does not necessarily make it accessible. It would take some significant motivation to work through all the supporting materials to the original manifesto. If the reader is put off by the original document, he is less likely to check the back up. > > One might say that Marx's and Engle's entire body of > work consisted of > backing up, sentence by sentence, the Communist > Manifesto My understanding is that their later work did just as you say. My comment was meant more along the lines of, by itself the CM is not a good argument for communism. At the time I felt that if the central statement of principals is so poorly done, what is the point of slogging through the rest? Being at the time a 17yo college student rather full of myself, I admit that my insight as a reader and judge of political theory was lacking, and that not investigating further may have been a hasty decision. Nevertheless, even at this remove, I think the CM could have been written better, and been a better call to the readers of it to investigate further. The good news is I am going revisit their works now and see how I react today, so maybe we can talk again after I am better educated :) I'm realy looking forward to it, in fact. I would be interested to know of any specific works you consider most useful. Chris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From juliette_torres at yahoo.com Thu Jun 20 11:24:30 2002 From: juliette_torres at yahoo.com (Juliette Torres) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 11:24:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: dragaeran gender equality In-Reply-To: <1024596026.9764.ezmlm@dragaera.info> Message-ID: <20020620182430.431.qmail@web20903.mail.yahoo.com> > I can't for the life of me decide. My concern is for the nobility - > is it strictly a father-son inheritance (with those rare exceptions > where a woman gets her hands on a title, but then must follow the > rules and pass it on at her death to the eldest male heir)? Not necessarily either. TPG--Pepperfield didn't go to the late Marquis's son, it got fought over by the House of Dragon. ~j __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com From frankNfi at zip.com.au Sat Jun 22 02:46:13 2002 From: frankNfi at zip.com.au (frankNfi) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 19:46:13 +1000 Subject: Dragaeran Gender Equality?? References: <144.103be2c2.2a42774a@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D144765.8040808@zip.com.au> Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > I can't for the life of me decide. My concern is for the nobility - is it > strictly a father-son inheritance (with those rare exceptions where a woman > gets her hands on a title, but then must follow the rules and pass it on at > her death to the eldest male heir)? Or are Dragaerans equal in that a woman > can hold a title in her own right, even if she has brothers/uncles/other male > relatives who could also hold it? > > Stacy I get the impression that inheritance is gender neutral, but because Dragerians are so infertile I cannot prove it. Every female character I can think of with a title has no male siblings mentioned or is explicitly an only child. Alieria only child Cawti no siblings known. The Empress only child. Tazendra no siblings known. Norathar only child. Francesco From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Sun Jun 23 10:09:54 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 13:09:54 -0400 Subject: Dragaeran Gender Equality?? References: <144.103be2c2.2a42774a@aol.com> <3D144765.8040808@zip.com.au> Message-ID: <3D1600E2.9C7C3816@earthlink.net> frankNfi wrote: > > > I get the impression that inheritance is gender neutral, but because > Dragerians are so infertile I cannot prove it. > Every female character I can think of with a title has no male siblings > mentioned or is explicitly an only child. I think for that very reason, gender equality is required. Look at the Phoenix. Zerika is the lone survivor, and she is accepted out of hand as Empress. The first Empress was a female Phoenix. Sethra has played a huge role in Dragaeran history. And remembering my Khaavren romances, as well as stuff in the Taltos series, females can duel, and seem to duel, as much as any male. Female Dragons in particular are often spoken of as dueling to avenge their honor. I forget how many notches Aliera has on her belt, but I vaguely recall something about her constantly ripping apart anyone who mocked her levitation, and then revivifying them. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From tyan at twcny.rr.com Sun Jun 23 11:23:42 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: 23 Jun 2002 14:23:42 -0400 Subject: Siblings [Dragaeran Gender Equality??] In-Reply-To: Jose Marquez's message of "Sun, 23 Jun 2002 13:09:54 -0400" References: <144.103be2c2.2a42774a@aol.com> <3D144765.8040808@zip.com.au> <3D1600E2.9C7C3816@earthlink.net> Message-ID: frankNfi wrote: > > I get the impression that inheritance is gender neutral, but because > Dragerians are so infertile I cannot prove it. Every female > character I can think of with a title has no male siblings mentioned > or is explicitly an only child. Tangent: What siblings have we seen, period? Savn has a sister in _Athyra_, but no other examples, Easterner or Dragaeran, leaps immediately to my mind. - tky From rick at 404.978.org Sun Jun 23 13:03:53 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 16:03:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Birth Rate [was: Siblings [Dragaeran Gender Equality??]] In-Reply-To: References: <144.103be2c2.2a42774a@aol.com> <3D144765.8040808@zip.com.au> <3D1600E2.9C7C3816@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <2626.192.168.1.1.1024862633.squirrel@404.978.org> Thomas Yan said: > frankNfi wrote: >> >> I get the impression that inheritance is gender neutral, but because >> Dragerians are so infertile I cannot prove it. Every female >> character I can think of with a title has no male siblings mentioned >> or is explicitly an only child. > > Tangent: What siblings have we seen, period? Savn has a sister in > _Athyra_, but no other examples, Easterner or Dragaeran, leaps > immediately to my mind. > > - tky Excellent point! It gives me a thought: Vlad's grandfather has, on occasion, referred to Dragaerans as "elves" or "pixies", if I remember correctly. In much of fantasy lore, races with longer lifespans, such as elves, pixies, dwarves, etc, tend to have much lower birth rates. If you think about it, it would only make sense- if they don't die as quickly, high birth rates would quickly lead to overcrowding and poor conditions. I haven't yet seen any spot in the books where Dragaerans live in squalor- even Teckla. It's only the short-lived Easterners who live like that. Methinks this is just another way that SB has put excellent thought into the society and balance of Dragaera at large, without having to hit us over the head with it. :) -Rick From mss2 at attbi.com Sun Jun 23 13:20:43 2002 From: mss2 at attbi.com (Michael S. Schiffer) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 15:20:43 -0500 Subject: Birth Rate [was: Siblings [Dragaeran Gender Equality??]] In-Reply-To: <2626.192.168.1.1.1024862633.squirrel@404.978.org> References: <144.103be2c2.2a42774a@aol.com> <3D144765.8040808@zip.com.au> <3D1600E2.9C7C3816@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020623151215.03c7a7c0@mail.attbi.com> At 04:03 PM 6/23/2002 -0400, Rick Castello wrote: > >... > If you think about it, it would only make sense- if they > don't die as quickly, high birth rates would quickly lead to > overcrowding and poor conditions. I haven't yet seen any spot > in the books where Dragaerans live in squalor- even Teckla. > > It's only the short-lived Easterners who live like that. > > Methinks this is just another way that SB has put excellent > thought into the society and balance of Dragaera at large, > without having to hit us over the head with it. :) They also have good contraceptive sorcery (munged by Vlad into thinking that Dragaerans can only conceive voluntarily). Access to reliable contraceptives tends to be correlated with a lower birth rate, increased greater gender equality, etc. Hmm... you'd think Vlad would have figured out about the whole contraceptive sorcery thing during his marriage to Cawti. (Before that, he was mostly dealing with Dragaeran prostitutes, IIRC, and they're not interfertile with Easterners anyway.) Unless they weren't using it, or Cawti was handling that end of things (at least for a while) and Vlad was just being sort of clueless. Mike From zizban at adelphia.net Sun Jun 23 13:47:27 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 16:47:27 -0400 Subject: Birth Rate [was: Siblings [Dragaeran Gender Equality??]] In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020623151215.03c7a7c0@mail.attbi.com> Message-ID: <6DAF1604-86EA-11D6-9464-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Sunday, June 23, 2002, at 04:20 PM, Michael S. Schiffer wrote: > At 04:03 PM 6/23/2002 -0400, Rick Castello wrote: >> >... >> If you think about it, it would only make sense- if they >> don't die as quickly, high birth rates would quickly lead to >> overcrowding and poor conditions. I haven't yet seen any spot >> in the books where Dragaerans live in squalor- even Teckla. >> >> It's only the short-lived Easterners who live like that. >> >> Methinks this is just another way that SB has put excellent >> thought into the society and balance of Dragaera at large, >> without having to hit us over the head with it. :) > > > They also have good contraceptive sorcery (munged by Vlad into thinking > that Dragaerans can only conceive voluntarily). Access to reliable > contraceptives tends to be correlated with a lower birth rate, > increased greater gender equality, etc. > > Hmm... you'd think Vlad would have figured out about the whole > contraceptive sorcery thing during his marriage to Cawti. (Before > that, he was mostly dealing with Dragaeran prostitutes, IIRC, and > they're not interfertile with Easterners anyway.) Unless they weren't > using it, or Cawti was handling that end of things (at least for a > while) and Vlad was just being sort of clueless. > > Mike > > Yes, Grandfather referred to Dragaerans as "elfs" and in fantasy lore, elves have long life spans and very small families (look at the elves of Tolkein to see what I mean). Also, as a society matures, the birth rate starts to decline, for instance agricultural/primitive societies have high birth rates so moe children can work in the field, shorter lifespans, etc. but post industrial societies, like the US's have long life spans and fewer amounts of children born. > ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info From rsuitor at cjwrfs.net Sun Jun 23 13:48:27 2002 From: rsuitor at cjwrfs.net (Richard Suitor) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 16:48:27 -0400 Subject: Siblings [Dragaeran Gender Equality??] In-Reply-To: References: <144.103be2c2.2a42774a@aol.com> <3D144765.8040808@zip.com.au> <3D1600E2.9C7C3816@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3icchu0e45tvtior9h6b13vudokrghir90@4ax.com> On 23 Jun 2002 14:23:42 -0400, Thomas Yan wrote: >Tangent: What siblings have we seen, period? Savn has a sister in >_Athyra_, but no other examples, Easterner or Dragaeran, leaps >immediately to my mind. There have to be siblings in general to have a stable population. If the expected number of children per adult is less than or equal to two, the population is declining (especially with the incidence of unrevivable deaths that we've seen). We haven't been introduced to folks with no parents yet. Unknown, certainly, but not thought to be non-existent. Of course, maybe it is declining. The timescale is generations, and there have been recent disasters. Or maybe some folks have no parents and aren't aware of that fact. Richard From Gaertk at aol.com Sun Jun 23 14:11:29 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 17:11:29 -0400 Subject: Siblings [Dragaeran Gender Equality??] Message-ID: <0363E264.785B19B5.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Sun, 23 Jun 2002 1:23:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, Thomas Yan writes: > Tangent: What siblings have we seen, period? ?Savn has a > sister in _Athyra_, but no other examples, Easterner or > Dragaeran, leaps immediately to my mind. Miklos has three brothers, and some of the folktales in BP mention siblings (I remember the strong prince/smart prince one), and Brigitta may have had siblings. For some reason I suspect Noish-pa or Vlad's father had siblings. And someone may want to check _Teckla_ to see if Paresh(?) mentions siblings. I think Adron had a sister. And Kieron, Dolivar, and whoever Aliera was were siblings. And Verra supposedly has two sisters (Night and Pain I think). Pretty much everyone we meet is an adult on their own, so we never get much chance to learn about thier families. --KG From zizban at adelphia.net Sun Jun 23 15:24:19 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 18:24:19 -0400 Subject: Permission to quote in Distracted by Shadows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sunday, June 23, 2002, at 06:24 PM, Thomas Yan wrote: > I expect that I'll often want to snag observations posted here for my > DbS notes. Please let me know if I may do so, and if so: > > + How you'd like your name and e-mail address to appear --or not > appear at all-- in my Acknowledgments. > > + To save space, if I may use just your initials in the body of my > notes. > > In particular, I already would appreciate hearing from > > DDB: David Dyer-Bennet > KG: The guy posting [Notes] > SSS: Stacy/Starshadow > > - tky > Just my name, no email addy. > ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Sun Jun 23 16:19:01 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 18:19:01 -0500 Subject: Continuity References: <0363E264.785B19B5.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D165764.B7C1C052@attbi.com> Hey, all! I have a question about Teckla, which I'm in the midst of rereading. Paresh worked for a female Dzurlord who was a quite decent fellow, until some unidentified catastrophe destroyed her and her lands and people. Paresh therefore lived in her manse until a Lyorn came to call upon her; whereupon he was rude to the Lyorn and eventually had to flee back home. Ummm, does anybody else wonder if we *know* these people??? Has Steve spilled anything? Have we had this discussion before when I wasn't participating? Mia From tyan at twcny.rr.com Sun Jun 23 16:23:21 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: 23 Jun 2002 19:23:21 -0400 Subject: Siblings [Dragaeran Gender Equality??] In-Reply-To: Gaertk@aol.com's message of "Sun, 23 Jun 2002 17:11:29 -0400" References: <0363E264.785B19B5.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: Gaertk at aol.com writes: > In a message dated Sun, 23 Jun 2002 1:23:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, Thomas Yan writes: > > > Tangent: What siblings have we seen, period? ?Savn has a > > sister in _Athyra_, but no other examples, Easterner or > > Dragaeran, leaps immediately to my mind. [rearranged] > I think Adron had a sister. And Kieron, Dolivar, and > whoever Aliera was were siblings. And Verra supposedly > has two sisters (Night and Pain I think). > > Miklos has three brothers, and some of the folktales in BP > mention siblings (I remember the strong prince/smart prince > one), and Brigitta may have had siblings. For some reason Oh, yeah! > I suspect Noish-pa or Vlad's father had siblings. And Me, too. > someone may want to check _Teckla_ to see if Paresh(?) > mentions siblings. Good call on Paresh. ** pp336-344. ch2. (337) "...black tallow from lft..." p340: "I had an older sister and two younger brothers" > Pretty much everyone we meet is an adult on their own, so > we never get much chance to learn about thier families. I think it would be natural for there to be large families on a farm, to help out with all the work [1]. Elsewhere, there may be siblings, but separated by so many years that the older children have already moved out. [1] Tangent: Have you read _The Dubious Hills_ by Pamela Dean? Kids are born with magic, but lose it when they grow older, which makes it convenient to have another baby on the way. - tky From to_nige at mail.com Sun Jun 23 16:22:25 2002 From: to_nige at mail.com (Nigel Leslie) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 09:22:25 +1000 Subject: Continuity References: <0363E264.785B19B5.00048EA6@aol.com> <3D165764.B7C1C052@attbi.com> Message-ID: <000901c21b0c$d7ab23f0$380ea8c0@local.secureinteractive.com> [VIRGIN POST!] I've heard this theory before, and I've got to say I'm thinking it sounds pretty good, that the Dzurlord is Tazendra and hence the Lyorn would be Aeric. The problem with this theory is that the Lyorn was throwing spells around, which wasn't something that Aeric was known to do in the Romances (at least the first 2 books). Maybe he's been training up? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mia McDavid" Cc: Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 9:19 AM Subject: Continuity > Hey, all! > > I have a question about Teckla, which I'm in the midst of rereading. > > Paresh worked for a female Dzurlord who was a quite decent fellow, until > some unidentified catastrophe destroyed her and her lands and people. > Paresh therefore lived in her manse until a Lyorn came to call upon her; > whereupon he was rude to the Lyorn and eventually had to flee back home. > > Ummm, does anybody else wonder if we *know* these people??? Has Steve > spilled anything? Have we had this discussion before when I wasn't > participating? > > Mia > From meersan at mn.astound.net Sun Jun 23 17:56:35 2002 From: meersan at mn.astound.net (Melissa Fitzgerald) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 19:56:35 -0500 Subject: Continuity In-Reply-To: <000901c21b0c$d7ab23f0$380ea8c0@local.secureinteractive.com > References: <0363E264.785B19B5.00048EA6@aol.com> <3D165764.B7C1C052@attbi.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020623195635.007a6580@astound.net> At 09:22 AM 6/24/02 +1000, Nigel Leslie wrote: >[VIRGIN POST!] > >I've heard this theory before, and I've got to say I'm thinking it sounds >pretty good, that the Dzurlord is Tazendra and hence the Lyorn would be >Aeric. > >The problem with this theory is that the Lyorn was throwing spells around, >which wasn't something that Aeric was known to do in the Romances (at least >the first 2 books). Maybe he's been training up? Paarfi mentions an instance of an explosion at Tazendra's estate: "[W]hat of good Tazendra? I was pleased to learn that she was able to escape unscatched from the explosion at her home. I hope she has learned >from this, and will temper her studies with care." Personal correspondence, Khaavren to Aerich, FHYA Ch. 3, p. 52 (HC Ed.) However, I don't believe this particular incident correlates with the one Paresh mentions. I'm not sure it fits the timeline, and there are a number of other problems such as the prevalance of sorcery and the survival of Tazendra. Also, it seems unlikely that an explosion resulting from a thaumaturgical experiment would result in the sort of widescale devastation described by Paresh. From ijamie at sympatico.ca Sun Jun 23 18:24:06 2002 From: ijamie at sympatico.ca (Ian sympatico) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 21:24:06 -0400 Subject: Siblings [Dragaeran Gender Equality??] References: <0363E264.785B19B5.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <003501c21b1d$d56bab80$20855f41@idirect.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2002 5:11 PM Subject: Re: Siblings [Dragaeran Gender Equality??] > In a message dated Sun, 23 Jun 2002 1:23:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, Thomas Yan writes: > > > Tangent: What siblings have we seen, period? Savn has a > > sister in _Athyra_, but no other examples, Easterner or > > Dragaeran, leaps immediately to my mind. > > Miklos has three brothers, and some of the folktales in BP > mention siblings (I remember the strong prince/smart prince > one), and Brigitta may have had siblings. For some reason > I suspect Noish-pa or Vlad's father had siblings. And > someone may want to check _Teckla_ to see if Paresh(?) > mentions siblings. > > I think Adron had a sister. And Kieron, Dolivar, and > whoever Aliera was were siblings. And Verra supposedly > has two sisters (Night and Pain I think). > > Pretty much everyone we meet is an adult on their own, so > we never get much chance to learn about thier families. > > --KG In 'Athyra' the guy who dies ( I'm too lazy to look up his name) has three children; two daughters and a son. In 'The Phoenix Guards' the Captain of Khaavren's unit is the ' poor younger son of a poor father'. I think that the 'elfs' have multiple children, especially if there is an inheritance to ensure the continuance of the line. The society is decadent and people have children or not as the mood strikes them. This is exascerbated by the long life span. Ian From dd-b at dd-b.net Sun Jun 23 19:15:28 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 23 Jun 2002 21:15:28 -0500 Subject: Siblings [Dragaeran Gender Equality??] In-Reply-To: References: <144.103be2c2.2a42774a@aol.com> <3D144765.8040808@zip.com.au> <3D1600E2.9C7C3816@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Thomas Yan writes: > frankNfi wrote: > > > > I get the impression that inheritance is gender neutral, but because > > Dragerians are so infertile I cannot prove it. Every female > > character I can think of with a title has no male siblings mentioned > > or is explicitly an only child. > > Tangent: What siblings have we seen, period? Savn has a sister in > _Athyra_, but no other examples, Easterner or Dragaeran, leaps > immediately to my mind. Well, Aliera had a brother once. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Sun Jun 23 19:16:27 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 23 Jun 2002 21:16:27 -0500 Subject: Siblings [Dragaeran Gender Equality??] In-Reply-To: <3icchu0e45tvtior9h6b13vudokrghir90@4ax.com> References: <144.103be2c2.2a42774a@aol.com> <3D144765.8040808@zip.com.au> <3D1600E2.9C7C3816@earthlink.net> <3icchu0e45tvtior9h6b13vudokrghir90@4ax.com> Message-ID: Richard Suitor writes: > On 23 Jun 2002 14:23:42 -0400, Thomas Yan > wrote: > > >Tangent: What siblings have we seen, period? Savn has a sister in > >_Athyra_, but no other examples, Easterner or Dragaeran, leaps > >immediately to my mind. > > There have to be siblings in general to have a stable population. > If the expected number of children per adult is less than or equal > to two, the population is declining (especially with the incidence > of unrevivable deaths that we've seen). We haven't been > introduced to folks with no parents yet. Unknown, certainly, but > not thought to be non-existent. > > Of course, maybe it is declining. The timescale is generations, > and there have been recent disasters. Or maybe some folks have no > parents and aren't aware of that fact. If dragaerans are fertile a proportional amount of their lifespan, the first child could well be away from home before the second came along often. They'd *be* siblings, but not having grown up together, probably wouldn't have many of the trappings of siblinghood that we're used to. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Sun Jun 23 19:19:37 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 23 Jun 2002 21:19:37 -0500 Subject: Permission to quote in Distracted by Shadows In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thomas Yan writes: > I expect that I'll often want to snag observations posted here for my > DbS notes. Please let me know if I may do so, and if so: > > + How you'd like your name and e-mail address to appear --or not > appear at all-- in my Acknowledgments. > > + To save space, if I may use just your initials in the body of my > notes. > > In particular, I already would appreciate hearing from > > DDB: David Dyer-Bennet My stuff can be collected and quoted from this group for use in this group and on fan web pages and whatever. Please credit me by name, email is fine in addition. If you figure out a way to make a fortune >from my postings, I want some of it :-). > SSS: Stacy/Starshadow -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From rsuitor at cjwrfs.net Sun Jun 23 19:33:46 2002 From: rsuitor at cjwrfs.net (Richard Suitor) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 22:33:46 -0400 Subject: Siblings [Dragaeran Gender Equality??] In-Reply-To: References: <144.103be2c2.2a42774a@aol.com> <3D144765.8040808@zip.com.au> <3D1600E2.9C7C3816@earthlink.net> <3icchu0e45tvtior9h6b13vudokrghir90@4ax.com> Message-ID: On 23 Jun 2002 21:16:27 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >If dragaerans are fertile a proportional amount of their lifespan, the >first child could well be away from home before the second came along >often. They'd *be* siblings, but not having grown up together, >probably wouldn't have many of the trappings of siblinghood that we're >used to. Good point. In fact, since Khaavren seems to be 95 in actuality when we first meet him, but perhaps equivalent to 17 to 19 in human development, one could assume that they mature relatively faster and are fertile longer. ( a factor of 5 in reaching maturity, a factor of many tens in lifetime ? ) Thus strengthening your point. Richard From lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com Sun Jun 23 19:34:56 2002 From: lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com (Lowki Liesmith) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 22:34:56 -0400 Subject: Siblings [Dragaeran Gender Equality??] Message-ID: The way I think is that they can have multiple children if they wanted to but would they want to. I personally would not want children in times of poverty and famine such as in 500 years after. Or even in times of war (when aren't there times of war in dragaera?!) I just think they either can't find the time in thier long lives or they don't feel economisally stable. take Aerics parents, they die when he was very young or even tazendra's(sorry I won't go any further for those who haven't read the Khaavren Romances.) But I just think they are also afraid of sibling rivalries when the parents die, who gets the land or their fathes's sword...ect. I think that after putting up with your annoying little sister or brother for a millenia or two you might feel the need to smack them upside the with your morganti great weapon which may actually start another war. --Lowki >From: David Dyer-Bennet >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: Siblings [Dragaeran Gender Equality??] >Date: 23 Jun 2002 21:15:28 -0500 > >Thomas Yan writes: > > > frankNfi wrote: > > > > > > I get the impression that inheritance is gender neutral, but because > > > Dragerians are so infertile I cannot prove it. Every female > > > character I can think of with a title has no male siblings mentioned > > > or is explicitly an only child. > > > > Tangent: What siblings have we seen, period? Savn has a sister in > > _Athyra_, but no other examples, Easterner or Dragaeran, leaps > > immediately to my mind. > >Well, Aliera had a brother once. >-- >David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test > John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net > Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ > New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com Sun Jun 23 19:38:44 2002 From: lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com (Lowki Liesmith) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 22:38:44 -0400 Subject: Siblings [Dragaeran Gender Equality??] Message-ID: oh yeah...what about morralan's brother...Molric. --Lowki >From: Richard Suitor >Reply-To: rsuitor at cjwrfs.net >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: Siblings [Dragaeran Gender Equality??] >Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 22:33:46 -0400 > >On 23 Jun 2002 21:16:27 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet >wrote: > > >If dragaerans are fertile a proportional amount of their lifespan, the > >first child could well be away from home before the second came along > >often. They'd *be* siblings, but not having grown up together, > >probably wouldn't have many of the trappings of siblinghood that we're > >used to. > >Good point. In fact, since Khaavren seems to be 95 in actuality >when we first meet him, but perhaps equivalent to 17 to 19 in >human development, one could assume that they mature relatively >faster and are fertile longer. ( a factor of 5 in reaching >maturity, a factor of many tens in lifetime ? ) Thus >strengthening your point. > >Richard > > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com Sun Jun 23 19:45:04 2002 From: lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com (Lowki Liesmith) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 22:45:04 -0400 Subject: Continuity Message-ID: I think that is a very good idea. that never crossed my mind but then again I didn't read the Khaavren romances until long after i had read teckla. but the point of Aeric throwing around spells... it seems that every one knows a bit of sorcery after the interregnum. --Lowki >From: "Nigel Leslie" >To: "Mia McDavid" >CC: >Subject: Re: Continuity >Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 09:22:25 +1000 > >[VIRGIN POST!] > >I've heard this theory before, and I've got to say I'm thinking it sounds >pretty good, that the Dzurlord is Tazendra and hence the Lyorn would be >Aeric. > >The problem with this theory is that the Lyorn was throwing spells around, >which wasn't something that Aeric was known to do in the Romances (at least >the first 2 books). Maybe he's been training up? > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Mia McDavid" >Cc: >Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 9:19 AM >Subject: Continuity > > > > Hey, all! > > > > I have a question about Teckla, which I'm in the midst of rereading. > > > > Paresh worked for a female Dzurlord who was a quite decent fellow, until > > some unidentified catastrophe destroyed her and her lands and people. > > Paresh therefore lived in her manse until a Lyorn came to call upon her; > > whereupon he was rude to the Lyorn and eventually had to flee back home. > > > > Ummm, does anybody else wonder if we *know* these people??? Has Steve > > spilled anything? Have we had this discussion before when I wasn't > > participating? > > > > Mia > > _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From divyasatyam at satyam.net.in Sun Jun 23 22:10:59 2002 From: divyasatyam at satyam.net.in (Divya) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 10:40:59 +0530 Subject: Continuity Message-ID: <030a01c21b3d$aa8b3500$7e7cd2d2@satyam.net.in> "Mia McDavid" wrote: >>> Paresh worked for a female Dzurlord who was a quite decent fellow, >>> until some unidentified catastrophe destroyed her and her lands and >>> people. Paresh therefore lived in her manse until a Lyorn came to >>> call upon her; whereupon he was rude to the Lyorn and eventually >>> had to flee back home. >>> Ummm, does anybody else wonder if we *know* these people "Nigel Leslie" responded: >> I've heard this theory before, and I've got to say I'm thinking it >> sounds pretty good, that the Dzurlord is Tazendra and hence the >> Lyorn would be Aeric. >> The problem with this theory is that the Lyorn was throwing spells >> around, which wasn't something that Aeric was known to do in the >> Romances (at least the first 2 books). Maybe he's been training up? I don't have my copy of _Teckla_ to hand, but I believe Paresh mentions that this happened in the duchy of Arylle. That rather suggests that Aerich (or his heir) is the Lyorn noble pursuing Paresh through the castle. As regards spells, it does seem that, post the Interregnum, pretty much every citizen does some elementary spell casting. There is also the possibility that Paresh was 1) exagerating his peril 2) misremembering the extent of the pursuit 3) lying or all of the above. I hope we're going to find out what happened to Tazendra post the explosion in the _Viscount of Adrilankha_. cheers, Divya ----------- "He turned and looked upon them, and he wept very sore As he saw the yawning gateway and the hasps wrenched off the door, And the pegs whereon no mantle nor coat of vair there hung. There perched no moulting goshawk, and there no falcon swung." -- _The Lay of the Cid_, translated by R. Selden Rose and Leonard Bacon From lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com Mon Jun 24 23:22:34 2002 From: lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com (Lowki Liesmith) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 02:22:34 -0400 Subject: is this list gone? Message-ID: is this mailing list finished? I haven't recieved any mail from it at all today! which as we all know would be very odd. i would get 30-40 per day and now none... was i kicked out for some reason? and not told about it? _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From rone at ennui.org Mon Jun 24 23:23:34 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (figmentality) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 23:23:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: is this list gone? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020625062334.D249626E24@boredom.ennui.org> Lowki Liesmith writes: is this mailing list finished? I haven't recieved any mail from it at all today! which as we all know would be very odd. i would get 30-40 per day and now none... was i kicked out for some reason? and not told about it? Yes. That is exactly what happened. rone -- Constancy of the speed of light is a conclusion, yes it is a conclusion based on nonconvincing, irrational assumptions. WHAT IS LIGHT?! Whose light? From what sourse? Please do not mention electronagnetics - the same applies to them. - Alexander Abian From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Jun 25 07:12:30 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 10:12:30 -0400 Subject: is this list gone? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <964200C4-8845-11D6-8D2A-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Tuesday, June 25, 2002, at 02:22 AM, Lowki Liesmith wrote: > > is this mailing list finished? I haven't recieved any mail from it at > all today! which as we all know would be very odd. i would get 30-40 > per day and now none... was i kicked out for some reason? and not told > about it? > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com > Nah, it's still here...just quiet. Subscribe to my list, the readalong list, we're reading The Phoenix Guards and discussing it. > ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info From lisa at spindot.com Tue Jun 25 07:14:25 2002 From: lisa at spindot.com (Lisa Grant Coffin) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 10:14:25 -0400 Subject: is this list gone? Message-ID: <001501c21c52$9cc976a0$1401a8c0@Spencer> > figmentality wrote: > > Lowki Liesmith writes: > > is this mailing list finished? I haven't recieved any mail from it > > at all today! which as we all know would be very odd. i would get > > 30-40 per day and now none... was i kicked out for some reason? and > > not told about it? > > > > Yes. That is exactly what happened. > > > > rone > i can only speak for myself, summer vacation schedules and visiting relatives have been intruding upon my dragaera time. sigh. lisa grant coffin From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Jun 25 12:52:59 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 15:52:59 -0400 Subject: is this list gone? In-Reply-To: <001501c21c52$9cc976a0$1401a8c0@Spencer> Message-ID: <2671E086-8875-11D6-8D2A-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Tuesday, June 25, 2002, at 10:14 AM, Lisa Grant Coffin wrote: >> figmentality wrote: >>> Lowki Liesmith writes: >>> is this mailing list finished? I haven't recieved any mail from it >>> at all today! which as we all know would be very odd. i would get >>> 30-40 per day and now none... was i kicked out for some reason? and >>> not told about it? >>> >>> Yes. That is exactly what happened. >>> >>> rone >> > i can only speak for myself, summer vacation schedules and visiting > relatives have been intruding upon my dragaera time. sigh. > > lisa grant coffin > > I'm nearing the end of the summer semester in college so I'm very busy. Plus I just got ARCs of my book today, so I lurk but that's all I have time for right now. > ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info From Starshadw at aol.com Wed Jun 26 21:43:44 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 00:43:44 EDT Subject: Worth a chuckle or two Message-ID: <69.29309d7a.2a4bf200@aol.com> Heh.... found this while browsing around http://selectsmart.com/FREE/select.php3?client=dragaera It's one of those "quizzy" thingees where you make your choices, and see which character in the books you are most like. Thought some of you might enjoy it. Stacy From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Jun 27 07:39:19 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 10:39:19 -0400 Subject: "Fantasy" Films Message-ID: <29BB9A13.320F8938.0296E7C9@aol.com> Steve, I just read your scifi.com interview, and I'm going to link to it on the RPG site just because I thought many of the things you said were fecking brilliant. But that's not what this is about. I noted that you said you hadn't seen a single fantasty film that was really worth watching. I'm wondering if you have seen PJ's Fellowship of the Ring, and whether that changed your mind at all, or whether you still feel the same way? I'm also curious what others on the list thought of the film. For me, as a lover of fantasy, I have to basically agree with you re: fantasy films. Which is not to say I don't enjoy re-watching Hollywood's attempts at fantasy films, because I do occasionally re-watch them - mostly for nostalgia, I think. I can say I enjoyed most of them, but that I always felt they fell short of what they "could/should" have been. -thinking- Of course, the fact that most of the fantasy films had good-looking men in them (remembering David Bowie's codpieces in Labyrinth)...but I digress! Ahem! ANYway....heh....was just curious how you (and everyone else on the list) felt about FotR. I'll see what others start saying before I make any comments of my own. Sheesh! I've been single waaaaaay too long. -grins- Stacy From dale.kunz at wcom.com Thu Jun 27 07:48:09 2002 From: dale.kunz at wcom.com (Dale Kunz) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 08:48:09 -0600 Subject: "Fantasy" Films In-Reply-To: <29BB9A13.320F8938.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: I can think of at least a few "worthwhile" Fantasy films, even pre-LOTR: Dragonslayer Conan The Barbarian Excalibur and the greatest "guilty pleasure" of all time - Hawk the Slayer :-) -D > -----Original Message----- > From: Starshadw at aol.com [mailto:Starshadw at aol.com] > Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 8:39 AM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: "Fantasy" Films > > > Steve, I just read your scifi.com interview, and I'm going to > link to it on the RPG site just because I thought many of the > things you said were fecking brilliant. But that's not what this > is about. > > I noted that you said you hadn't seen a single fantasty film that > was really worth watching. I'm wondering if you have seen PJ's > Fellowship of the Ring, and whether that changed your mind at > all, or whether you still feel the same way? I'm also curious > what others on the list thought of the film. > > For me, as a lover of fantasy, I have to basically agree with you > re: fantasy films. Which is not to say I don't enjoy re-watching > Hollywood's attempts at fantasy films, because I do occasionally > re-watch them - mostly for nostalgia, I think. I can say I > enjoyed most of them, but that I always felt they fell short of > what they "could/should" have been. -thinking- Of course, the > fact that most of the fantasy films had good-looking men in them > (remembering David Bowie's codpieces in Labyrinth)...but I > digress! Ahem! ANYway....heh....was just curious how you (and > everyone else on the list) felt about FotR. > > I'll see what others start saying before I make any comments of my own. > > Sheesh! I've been single waaaaaay too long. -grins- > > Stacy From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Jun 27 08:00:35 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:00:35 -0400 Subject: "Fantasy" Films Message-ID: <3C21DDB9.39697AE6.0296E7C9@aol.com> In a message dated Thu, 27 Jun 2002 9:48:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, dale.kunz at wcom.com writes: > Conan The Barbarian Well, you know, as someone who has been playing D&D since she was 9 years old, Conan is a movie never to be missed when it is on TV. -winks- Just plain good, D&D-type entertainment. Heh. I wish they would show Big trouble in Little China on TV as often as they show the two Conan flicks. Stacy From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Jun 27 10:59:59 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 13:59:59 EDT Subject: "Fantasy" Films Message-ID: I have to put my two cents in on this one. I still watch Dragonslayer everytime it's run on tv. I also liked Conan, Time Bandits and Road Warrior. There have been many fantasy films done over the last twenty years that were at the very least entertaining. I agree that there has not been any that go to the scope of Lord of the Rings, but they do make a good effort. Let us remember that digital effects and computer graphics have come a long way and we should be seeing many more quality pictures in the near future. I have been disaapointed with many of the recent releases, namely Starship Troopers. A great book could have been made into a great movie. The director and producers chose instead to adapt the book to fit their budget. It did'nt work and was horrible. It is my opinion that fantasy and science fiction books do not translate well to the big screen because of cost constraints when designing sets and props. From frank at exit.com Thu Jun 27 11:10:57 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:10:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Fantasy" Films In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200206271810.g5RIAvrh009529@realtime.exit.com> Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > I have > been disaapointed with many of the recent releases, namely Starship Troopers. > A great book could have been made into a great movie. Not recent, but I only have one word to say about this: Dune. (Poor Herbert is spinning in his grave.) -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Jun 27 11:13:34 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 14:13:34 -0400 Subject: Is it just me??? Message-ID: <3EAEFFC9.7364E87F.0296E7C9@aol.com> Or are there a heck of lot of Coloradoans on this list? -getting paranoid- :) Maybe it's just a small world. Stacy From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Jun 27 11:46:16 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:46:16 -0700 Subject: "Fantasy" Films In-Reply-To: <29BB9A13.320F8938.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020627114301.00a501d0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:39 AM 6/27/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >I noted that you said you hadn't seen a single fantasty film that was >really worth watching. I'm wondering if you have seen PJ's Fellowship of >the Ring, and whether that changed your mind at all, or whether you still >feel the same way? I liked it. I'm not bouncing up and down about it, but I liked it. They get credit, above all, for taking the material seriously. And, while they cut some of my favorite parts (I'm especially partial to the relationship between Glordindel and Gimli), I think all the things they cut were reasonable. From rone at ennui.org Thu Jun 27 11:53:41 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (figmentality) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:53:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Fantasy" Films In-Reply-To: <200206271810.g5RIAvrh009529@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <20020627185341.57CA526E24@boredom.ennui.org> Frank Mayhar writes: Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > I have been disaapointed with many of the recent releases, namely > Starship Troopers. A great book could have been made into a great > movie. Not recent, but I only have one word to say about this: Dune. (Poor Herbert is spinning in his grave.) Although this is drifting off topic, Herbert noted in the introduction to "Eye" that, given the constraints, he was fairly happy with the movie. rone -- Constancy of the speed of light is a conclusion, yes it is a conclusion based on nonconvincing, irrational assumptions. WHAT IS LIGHT?! Whose light? From what sourse? Please do not mention electronagnetics - the same applies to them. - Alexander Abian From tsarren at alyra.org Thu Jun 27 11:53:12 2002 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Kat) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 13:53:12 -0500 Subject: "Fantasy" Films In-Reply-To: ; from Randi128@aol.com on Thu, Jun 27, 2002 at 01:59:59PM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20020627135312.A18030@galadriel.alyra.org> *delurk* *wave* Greetings, all. On Thu, Jun 27, 2002 at 01:59:59PM -0400, Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > It is my opinion that fantasy and science fiction books do > not translate well to the big screen because of cost constraints when > designing sets and props. While I think that is certainly a factor, imo the main reason behind any bad sf/f movie (whether it is being made from a book or not) is the same reason behind a bad movie of any genre: crappy script-writing, poor plot structure, and the general disregard of audience intelligence by the movie production industry (i.e., "as long as this movie has enough action scenes, scantily-clad people, and cool one-liners, the audience won't notice the complete and utter lack of believable plot and cerebral value"). Kat From frank at exit.com Thu Jun 27 12:00:27 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:00:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Fantasy" Films In-Reply-To: <20020627185341.57CA526E24@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <200206271900.g5RJ0RLI015739@realtime.exit.com> figmentality wrote: > [Re Dune] > Although this is drifting off topic, Herbert noted in the introduction > to "Eye" that, given the constraints, he was fairly happy with the movie. That had to have been _before_ the majority of the movie ended up on the cutting-room floor. (The bits and pieces of recovered footage that I've seen seem to indicate a much better movie than what finally reached theaters.) -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Jun 27 12:14:58 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 27 Jun 2002 14:14:58 -0500 Subject: "Fantasy" Films In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020627114301.00a501d0@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020627114301.00a501d0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: Steven Brust writes: > At 10:39 AM 6/27/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > > > I noted that you said you hadn't seen a single fantasty film that > > was really worth watching. I'm wondering if you have seen PJ's > > Fellowship of the Ring, and whether that changed your mind at all, > > or whether you still feel the same way? > > I liked it. I'm not bouncing up and down about it, but I liked it. > They get credit, above all, for taking the material seriously. And, > while they cut some of my favorite parts (I'm especially partial to > the relationship between Glordindel and Gimli), I think all the things > they cut were reasonable. *Legolas* and Gimli, maybe? -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From den at monger.net Thu Jun 27 12:25:53 2002 From: den at monger.net (Dennis Higbee) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:25:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Fantasy" Films In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Jun 2002 Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > I have to put my two cents in on this one. I still watch Dragonslayer > everytime it's run on tv. I also liked Conan, Time Bandits and Road Warrior. > There have been many fantasy films done over the last twenty years that were > at the very least entertaining. I agree that there has not been any that go > to the scope of Lord of the Rings, but they do make a good effort. Let us > remember that digital effects and computer graphics have come a long way and > we should be seeing many more quality pictures in the near future. I have If we do, I don't think it will be because of improved effects. The inherent flaw, I think, is that Hollywood doesn't take sf seriously, especially fantasy. Most of the "classic" fantasy or science-fantasy films are valued more their campiness or stylized violence than any real artistic merit. > been disaapointed with many of the recent releases, namely Starship Troopers. > A great book could have been made into a great movie. The director and > producers chose instead to adapt the book to fit their budget. It did'nt work > and was horrible. It is my opinion that fantasy and science fiction books do > not translate well to the big screen because of cost constraints when > designing sets and props. It's my opinion that sf books don't make good movies because of the differences in the media and the lack of interest in the work necessary to overcome those differences. The LotR films are the result of years of work on the part of a committed director, Peter Jackson, combined with a huge gamble by New Line (that has already paid off) and an unusual lever of tolerance, in allowing Jackson to proceed mostly unhindered. I don't forsee it happening again anytime soon. -Dennis From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Jun 27 12:29:30 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 15:29:30 EDT Subject: "Fantasy" Films Message-ID: <15b.10122d15.2a4cc19a@aol.com> In a message dated 6/27/2002 1:15:18 PM Mountain Daylight Time, dd-b at dd-b.net writes: > *Legolas* and Gimli, maybe? My bet is for Galadriel and Gimli. :-) Stacy From anthony at netdocuments.com Thu Jun 27 12:47:56 2002 From: anthony at netdocuments.com (Anthony Tedjamulia) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 13:47:56 -0600 Subject: "Fantasy" Films Message-ID: *snip* > It is my opinion that fantasy and science fiction books do > not translate well to the big screen because of cost > constraints when designing sets and props. These days, the budget of sets/props isn't what creates as much disappointment. With the new popularity and improvement in quality of the Computer Generated images, previous limitations (both financial and practical) aren't the reason sci-fi/fantasy turns out less-then phenomenal. Usually, the problem is corporate deadlines and an ill-appreciation for the art of the story in the first place. From alan at 5sc.net Thu Jun 27 13:16:06 2002 From: alan at 5sc.net (Alan) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 16:16:06 -0400 Subject: "Fantasy" Films In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: David Dyer-Bennet [mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net] > Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 15:15 > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: "Fantasy" Films > > > Steven Brust writes: > > > At 10:39 AM 6/27/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > > > > > I noted that you said you hadn't seen a single fantasty film that > > > was really worth watching. I'm wondering if you have seen PJ's > > > Fellowship of the Ring, and whether that changed your mind at all, > > > or whether you still feel the same way? > > > > I liked it. I'm not bouncing up and down about it, but I liked it. > > They get credit, above all, for taking the material seriously. And, > > while they cut some of my favorite parts (I'm especially partial to > > the relationship between Glordindel and Gimli), I think all the things > > they cut were reasonable. > > *Legolas* and Gimli, maybe? Galadriel, actually. R. Alan Miller CTO Dragon Networks, Inc. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Jun 27 14:23:45 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 14:23:45 -0700 Subject: "Fantasy" Films In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020627114301.00a501d0@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020627114301.00a501d0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020627142307.0235c040@pop3.lvcm.com> At 02:14 PM 6/27/2002 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > And, > > while they cut some of my favorite parts (I'm especially partial to > > the relationship between Glordindel and Gimli), I think all the things > > they cut were reasonable. > >*Legolas* and Gimli, maybe? Uh...let's shoot for Galadriel and Gimli. (Sheesh) From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Jun 27 14:39:35 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 27 Jun 2002 16:39:35 -0500 Subject: "Fantasy" Films In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020627142307.0235c040@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020627114301.00a501d0@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020627114301.00a501d0@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020627142307.0235c040@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: Steven Brust writes: > At 02:14 PM 6/27/2002 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > And, > > > while they cut some of my favorite parts (I'm especially partial to > > > the relationship between Glordindel and Gimli), I think all the things > > > they cut were reasonable. > > > >*Legolas* and Gimli, maybe? > > Uh...let's shoot for Galadriel and Gimli. > > (Sheesh) Okay, that makes sense too (though the Legolas / Gimli relationship got considerably more attention paid to it in the book). For that matter, it was the time in Rivendell that really cemented the Legolas / Gimli friendship, so it's not unrelated to the Galadriel. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU Thu Jun 27 15:25:00 2002 From: goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (David Goldfarb) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 15:25:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Fantasy" Films Message-ID: <200206272225.g5RMP0A06189@famine.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> From: David Dyer-Bennet >For that >matter, it was the time in Rivendell that really cemented the Legolas >/ Gimli friendship, so it's not unrelated to the Galadriel. For values of "Rivendell" equal to "Lothlorien", yes. -- David Goldfarb <*>|"I came to Casablanca for the waters." goldfarb at ocf.berkeley.edu | "The waters? What waters? We're in the desert." asteroid at slip.net |"I was misinformed." goldfarb at csua.berkeley.edu | From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Jun 27 15:30:23 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 18:30:23 EDT Subject: -chuckles- Message-ID: <45.196431c7.2a4cebff@aol.com> I think it's time for some of you to re-read the LotR trilogy. -grins- Stacy From lisa at spindot.com Thu Jun 27 15:36:43 2002 From: lisa at spindot.com (Lisa Grant Coffin) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 18:36:43 -0400 Subject: "Fantasy" Films References: <20020627185341.57CA526E24@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <004701c21e2b$1d6c9ec0$1401a8c0@Spencer> figmentality wrote: > Frank Mayhar writes: Not recent, but I only have one word to say about this: Dune. > (Poor Herbert is spinning in his grave.) > > Although this is drifting off topic, Herbert noted in the introduction > to "Eye" that, given the constraints, he was fairly happy with the > movie. the version of dune that ran as a serial on the sci-fi channel was inordinately better (in my humble opinion) than the movie version with sting et al. it is well worth watching, and is much more interesting in terms of maintaining the integrity of the writing than the rather campy flash-gordon-style movie version. lisa grant coffin From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Jun 27 15:44:02 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 18:44:02 EDT Subject: "Fantasy" Films Message-ID: <93.1f37ba69.2a4cef32@aol.com> Kat wrote about scantily clothed people. I like to see scantily clothed people in movies. Why else go????? If you have a bad plot what else is there to watch???? From yhcrana13 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 27 15:46:07 2002 From: yhcrana13 at hotmail.com (A. Nonymous) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 17:46:07 -0500 Subject: "Fantasy" Films Re: LOTR Message-ID: >From: Steven Brust >To: Starshadw at aol.com, dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: "Fantasy" Films >Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:46:16 -0700 >I liked it. I'm not bouncing up and down about it, but I liked it. They >get credit, above all, for taking the material seriously. And, while they >cut some of my favorite parts (I'm especially partial to the relationship >between Glordindel and Gimli), I think all the things they cut were >reasonable. There's a solid chance that anything you missed from the theatrical release will be on the collectors edition 4 dvd gift-set-thingie that comes out in November. I think that they added about 35 or so minutes to the movie making the run time like 3 hours and 45 minutes. Josh Collins The Guide is definitive. Reality is frequently inaccurate. (Douglas Adams - The Restaurant at the End of the Universe) yhcrana13 at hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From rick at 404.978.org Thu Jun 27 14:57:41 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 17:57:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 'Fantasy' Films In-Reply-To: <004701c21e2b$1d6c9ec0$1401a8c0@Spencer> References: <20020627185341.57CA526E24@boredom.ennui.org> <004701c21e2b$1d6c9ec0$1401a8c0@Spencer> Message-ID: <3713.192.168.1.1.1025215061.squirrel@404.978.org> Lisa Grant Coffin said: > the version of dune that ran as a serial on the sci-fi channel was > inordinately better (in my humble opinion) than the movie version with > sting et al. it is well worth watching, and is much more interesting in > terms of maintaining the integrity of the writing than the rather campy > flash-gordon-style movie version. > > lisa grant coffin Hmm... I'd have to disagree. I just liked the "feel" of the Lynch version better- particularly the "old tech" that was everywhere. Everything looked too new for a centuries-old empire in the new one, for my tastes. Another beef of mine about the new version- I felt that nearly all of the actors (there were a couple exceptions) weren't all that good. Much of the time, I felt the overacting was a 7 on the scale where Jeremy Irons in "Dungeons and Dragons" is a 10. I'd agree that the miniseries was closer to the book... but the tradeoff wasn't worth it, in my opinion. -Rick http://rick.978.org/ From alan at 5sc.net Thu Jun 27 16:23:00 2002 From: alan at 5sc.net (Alan) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 19:23:00 -0400 Subject: "Fantasy" Films In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020627142307.0235c040@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: R. Alan Miller CTO Dragon Networks, Inc. > -----Original Message----- > From: Steven Brust [mailto:skzb at dreamcafe.com] > Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 17:24 > To: David Dyer-Bennet; dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: "Fantasy" Films > > > At 02:14 PM 6/27/2002 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > And, > > > while they cut some of my favorite parts (I'm especially partial to > > > the relationship between Glordindel and Gimli), I think all the things > > > they cut were reasonable. > > > >*Legolas* and Gimli, maybe? > > Uh...let's shoot for Galadriel and Gimli. > > (Sheesh) > Galadriel *does* have some nice legolases..... *G* From andrew at networkharmoni.com.au Thu Jun 27 17:09:04 2002 From: andrew at networkharmoni.com.au (Andrew Bailey) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 08:09:04 +0800 Subject: "Fantasy" Films References: Message-ID: <3D1BA920.6020703@networkharmoni.com.au> Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > I have been disaapointed with many of the recent releases, namely Starship Troopers. > A great book could have been made into a great movie. The director and > producers chose instead to adapt the book to fit their budget. Ok I have to disagree with this. I found Starship Troopers to be a good film not so much cause of its special effects, but more because of it being an underlying resistant adaption of the book. That is one of the things I enjoy about SF is the commentry upon society. On the other hand, I have no taste when it comes to movies. I liked Hudson Hawk:) Andrew. From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Jun 27 18:15:45 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 27 Jun 2002 20:15:45 -0500 Subject: "Fantasy" Films In-Reply-To: <200206272225.g5RMP0A06189@famine.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> References: <200206272225.g5RMP0A06189@famine.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: David Goldfarb writes: > From: David Dyer-Bennet > >For that > >matter, it was the time in Rivendell that really cemented the Legolas > >/ Gimli friendship, so it's not unrelated to the Galadriel. > > For values of "Rivendell" equal to "Lothlorien", yes. Could I convince you it was a typo? -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Jun 27 18:17:29 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 27 Jun 2002 20:17:29 -0500 Subject: "Fantasy" Films In-Reply-To: <3D1BA920.6020703@networkharmoni.com.au> References: <3D1BA920.6020703@networkharmoni.com.au> Message-ID: Andrew Bailey writes: > Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > > > I have been disaapointed with many of the recent releases, namely > > Starship Troopers. A great book could have been made into a great > > movie. The director and producers chose instead to adapt the book to > > fit their budget. > > Ok I have to disagree with this. I found Starship Troopers to be a good > film not so much cause of its special effects, but more because of it > being an underlying resistant adaption of the book. That is one of the > things I enjoy about SF is the commentry upon society. We're getting a bit off-topic here, but I have to say that the movie of Starship Troopers was offensively stupid (farting superluminal asteroids????) *and* was grossly and intentionally disrespectful to the book it claimed to be based on. Did I mention I have strong opinions about this? -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dale.kunz at wcom.com Thu Jun 27 22:01:29 2002 From: dale.kunz at wcom.com (Dale Kunz) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 23:01:29 -0600 Subject: Film : Dragaera Dream Casting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: With all this talk of poor films of the past, and great film potential for the future, its got me thinking: have y'all done dream casting for the Dragaera books yet? I'll throw one out there to get the ball rolling: Vlad - Colin Farrel (Fed in Minority Report, check out some of his other roles) If this has been done to death previously, please ignore me and I'll go back to my corner :-) -D From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Jun 27 22:08:26 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 00:08:26 -0500 Subject: "Fantasy" Films In-Reply-To: <29BB9A13.320F8938.0296E7C9@aol.com> References: <29BB9A13.320F8938.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020628050826.GD1144@infodancer.org> On Thu, Jun 27, 2002 at 10:39:19AM -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > For me, as a lover of fantasy, I have to basically agree with > you re: fantasy films. Which is not to say I don't enjoy > re-watching Hollywood's attempts at fantasy films, because I do > occasionally re-watch them - mostly for nostalgia, I think. I > can say I enjoyed most of them, but that I always felt they > fell short of what they "could/should" have been. -thinking- Of > course, the fact that most of the fantasy films had > good-looking men in them (remembering David Bowie's codpieces > in Labyrinth)...but I digress! Ahem! ANYway....heh....was just > curious how you (and everyone else on the list) felt about > FotR. FotR was the first one that Hollyweird made a serious effort with, and they got it mostly right. Most of the rest end up being rather horrible because Hollyweird doesn't understand the medium. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From to_nige at mail.com Thu Jun 27 22:16:00 2002 From: to_nige at mail.com (Nigel Leslie) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 15:16:00 +1000 Subject: "Fantasy" Films References: <3D1BA920.6020703@networkharmoni.com.au> Message-ID: <001f01c21e62$e5e0abd0$380ea8c0@local.secureinteractive.com> Sir, With all due respect I think you have have been looking merely at the 'Bug-Hunting' veneer of the movie of Starship Troopers. There are some very strong anti-fascist and proganda statements within the movie, often hidden within metaphor and symbolism. The Director's Commentary on the DVD version is particularly enlightening, almost predicting America's current (and future?) stance. Nige ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Dyer-Bennet" To: Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 11:17 AM Subject: Re: "Fantasy" Films > Andrew Bailey writes: > > > Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > > > > > I have been disaapointed with many of the recent releases, namely > > > Starship Troopers. A great book could have been made into a great > > > movie. The director and producers chose instead to adapt the book to > > > fit their budget. > > > > Ok I have to disagree with this. I found Starship Troopers to be a good > > film not so much cause of its special effects, but more because of it > > being an underlying resistant adaption of the book. That is one of the > > things I enjoy about SF is the commentry upon society. > > We're getting a bit off-topic here, but I have to say that the movie > of Starship Troopers was offensively stupid (farting superluminal > asteroids????) *and* was grossly and intentionally disrespectful to > the book it claimed to be based on. > > Did I mention I have strong opinions about this? > -- > David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test > John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net > Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ > New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info > From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Jun 27 22:13:24 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 00:13:24 -0500 Subject: 'Fantasy' Films In-Reply-To: <3713.192.168.1.1.1025215061.squirrel@404.978.org> References: <20020627185341.57CA526E24@boredom.ennui.org> <004701c21e2b$1d6c9ec0$1401a8c0@Spencer> <3713.192.168.1.1.1025215061.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: <20020628051324.GE1144@infodancer.org> On Thu, Jun 27, 2002 at 05:57:41PM -0400, Rick Castello wrote: > Another beef of mine about the new version- I felt that nearly > all of the actors (there were a couple exceptions) weren't all > that good. Much of the time, I felt the overacting was a 7 on > the scale where Jeremy Irons in "Dungeons and Dragons" is a 10. Yes, but he KNEW the movie he was in sucked, and played up to it. ("GIVE ME THE ROD!") The D&D movie is a successful comedy... when it was trying to be a mediocre drama. That says a lot about its quality, as in, lack thereof. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From frank at exit.com Thu Jun 27 22:27:58 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 22:27:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Fantasy" Films In-Reply-To: <20020628050826.GD1144@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <200206280527.g5S5Rw6b036873@realtime.exit.com> Matthew Hunter wrote: > FotR was the first one that Hollyweird made a serious effort > with, and they got it mostly right. Most of the rest end up > being rather horrible because Hollyweird doesn't understand the > medium. Boy, _that's_ an understatement. The astounding thing is that those idiots occasionally actually make a movie worth seeing. Says a lot about the patience and endurance of the very few relatively smart people there. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Fri Jun 28 01:17:14 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 03:17:14 -0500 Subject: "Fantasy" Films References: <29BB9A13.320F8938.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > Steve, I just read your scifi.com interview, and I'm going to link to > it on the RPG site just because I thought many of the things you said > were fecking brilliant. But that's not what this is about. > > I noted that you said you hadn't seen a single fantasty film that was > really worth watching. I'm wondering if you have seen PJ's > Fellowship of the Ring, and whether that changed your mind at all, or > whether you still feel the same way? I'm also curious what others on > the list thought of the film. > > For me, as a lover of fantasy, I have to basically agree with you re: fantasy films. Which is not to say I don't enjoy re-watching Hollywood's attempts at fantasy films, because I do occasionally re-watch them - mostly for nostalgia, I think. I can say I enjoyed most of them, but that I always felt they fell short of what they "could/should" have been. -thinking- Of course, the fact that most of the fantasy films had good-looking men in them (remembering David Bowie's codpieces in Labyrinth)...but I digress! Ahem! ANYway....heh....was just curious how you (and everyone else on the list) felt about FotR. > > I'll see what others start saying before I make any comments of my > own. > > Sheesh! I've been single waaaaaay too long. -grins- > > Stacy I tend to think of all movies as fantasy, maybe not my type of fantasy but it's someones fantasy. I think this is proven by the fact that most of america likes to see things blown up, which says something about the average movie go-er's imagination. The best they can come up with is 'chicks' and 'guns' + a few explosions. This is not reality. Hence I consider it fantasy. What generally is classified as fantasy I like to think of as 'Imaginative' What about the Princess Bride? I think of that as a comedy and the premise behind it was a grandfather reading a story (heh, a book) to his ill grandson. It's like we've submitted that any really worthwhile story is made into a book, maybe from there it will see film. film is about money most of the artistic and imaginative film never makes it through the chain of distribution to us but on rare and special occasions. Just with any media it takes quality of workmanship, and generally creative thought to do well. The movie indistry hasn't seemed to think that is what makes good movies, they've realized the stories that are original to thier genere of storytelling haven't really been as good as they could be, look over the last few years and you might spot the shift of where movies are going. Harry potter (haven't seen) and FotR (haven't seen all of) made huge ammounts of money, I think there based on that a slew of really horrible 'fantasy' films will be made in the next few years, that's hollywood's trend; milk it for every buck. I'd be glad to see them prove me wrong and produce only good movies, don't forget though that something being good is only relative, there is no accounting for the publics taste. The guys in tinsel town know where the money is at at the moment, imaginative if not good 'fantasy' stories. Looks like I went on a bit of a rant, please excuse me. heh Angelo Tripp-Russo From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Fri Jun 28 01:32:26 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 03:32:26 -0500 Subject: Film : Dragaera Dream Casting References: Message-ID: Dale Kunz wrote: > With all this talk of poor films of the past, and great film > potential for the future, its got me thinking: have y'all done dream > casting for the Dragaera books yet? > I'll throw one out there to get the ball rolling: > Vlad - Colin Farrel (Fed in Minority Report, check out some of his > other roles) > > If this has been done to death previously, please ignore me and I'll > go back to my corner :-) > > -D I'd have to say Chris Sarandon 5-10 years before he did Princess Bride for Morrolan (he was prince humperdink btw) Linda Hamilton in 15 years or a good makeup crew who played Sarah Conner in Terminator 2 as Sethra Lavode http://us.imdb.com/Name?Hamilton,+Linda From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Fri Jun 28 01:43:20 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 03:43:20 -0500 Subject: 'Fantasy' Films References: <20020627185341.57CA526E24@boredom.ennui.org> <004701c21e2b$1d6c9ec0$1401a8c0@Spencer> <3713.192.168.1.1.1025215061.squirrel@404.978.org> <20020628051324.GE1144@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Thu, Jun 27, 2002 at 05:57:41PM -0400, Rick Castello > wrote: >> Another beef of mine about the new version- I felt that nearly >> all of the actors (there were a couple exceptions) weren't all >> that good. Much of the time, I felt the overacting was a 7 on >> the scale where Jeremy Irons in "Dungeons and Dragons" is a 10. > > Yes, but he KNEW the movie he was in sucked, and played up to it. > > ("GIVE ME THE ROD!") > > The D&D movie is a successful comedy... when it was trying to be > a mediocre drama. That says a lot about its quality, as in, lack > thereof. I think he needed a paycheck bad and either way he didn't care. And it being a comedy had to be on purpose, you can't cast a wayans brother and expect it to be serious - EVER I could have gamed a more entertaining story than they choose to use. the real problem is I as a viewer never felt as If I was looking into a world I wasn't part of and found interesting. From frankNfi at zip.com.au Fri Jun 28 02:19:01 2002 From: frankNfi at zip.com.au (frankNfi) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 19:19:01 +1000 Subject: "Fantasy" Films References: Message-ID: <3D1C2A05.3020301@zip.com.au> Dennis Higbee wrote: > On Thu, 27 Jun 2002 Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > > > It's my opinion that sf books don't make good movies because of the > differences in the media and the lack of interest in the work necessary > to overcome those differences. The LotR films are the result of years > of work on the part of a committed director, Peter Jackson, combined with > a huge gamble by New Line (that has already paid off) and an unusual lever > of tolerance, in allowing Jackson to proceed mostly unhindered. I don't > forsee it happening again anytime soon. > > -Dennis The interest may be blossoming. A few other movies have come out that have shown respect for their fantastic source material & not hacked the story into a normal hollywood form. Minority Report leaves all of its sf short story tricks in, spider man is a loving rendition of the comic & Harry Potter is so close to the book it is scary. Only minority report is a good movie mind you , but all of them respect thier sources. Francesco > From frankNfi at zip.com.au Fri Jun 28 02:36:24 2002 From: frankNfi at zip.com.au (frankNfi) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 19:36:24 +1000 Subject: "Fantasy" Films References: <3D1BA920.6020703@networkharmoni.com.au> Message-ID: <3D1C2E18.7000508@zip.com.au> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Andrew Bailey writes: > >> Randi128 at aol.com wrote: >> >>> I have been disappointed with many of the recent releases, namely >>> Starship Troopers. A great book could have been made into a great >>> movie. The director and producers chose instead to adapt the book to >>> fit their budget. >> >> Ok I have to disagree with this. I found Starship Troopers to be a good >> film not so much cause of its special effects, but more because of it >> being an underlying resistant adaption of the book. That is one of the >> things I enjoy about SF is the commentry upon society. > > > We're getting a bit off-topic here, but I have to say that the movie > of Starship Troopers was offensively stupid (farting superluminal > asteroids????) *and* was grossly and intentionally disrespectful to > the book it claimed to be based on. > > Did I mention I have strong opinions about this? Heinlein seems to me to have written in Starship Troopers an extrapolation of his experience in the US Navy in the Pacific in WW2, all duty , inhuman enemy and being drooped into & pulled out of the fighting to the safety of the ships. Verhooven seems to me to have made Starship Troopers as an extrapolation of his childhood in occupied Holland, random death & strutting Nazis. I suspect he made the movie deliberately disrespectful in order to belittle the ideas in the book. Francesco From frankNfi at zip.com.au Fri Jun 28 02:55:18 2002 From: frankNfi at zip.com.au (frankNfi) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 19:55:18 +1000 Subject: Castle Black References: <20020627185341.57CA526E24@boredom.ennui.org> <004701c21e2b$1d6c9ec0$1401a8c0@Spencer> <3713.192.168.1.1.1025215061.squirrel@404.978.org> <20020628051324.GE1144@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <3D1C3286.4010203@zip.com.au> Has anyone managed to reconstruct the layout of Castle Black ? It seems to be as convoluted as the paths of the dead. The access to tower room seems to move (e.g. Dragon p97 vs The Book Of Taltos p270). There are either one or 17 Libraries. The place has never come together in my head, past the front doors & grand staircase. Francesco From lisa at spindot.com Fri Jun 28 05:38:29 2002 From: lisa at spindot.com (Lisa Grant Coffin) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 08:38:29 -0400 Subject: "Fantasy" Films [LoTR, H.P.] References: <3D1C2A05.3020301@zip.com.au> Message-ID: <007801c21ea0$b71bfaa0$1401a8c0@Spencer> frankNfi wrote: > The interest may be blossoming. A few other movies have come out that > have shown respect for their > fantastic source material & not hacked the story into a normal > hollywood form. Minority Report leaves > all of its sf short story tricks in, spider man is a loving rendition > of the comic & Harry Potter is so close > to the book it is scary. Only minority report is a good movie mind > you , but all of them respect thier sources. > > Francesco i totally agree! much has been said about what Harry Potter has or hasn't done for the (ahem) genre. i disagree with everyone who says interest has dropped off. my nine year old son (and his mother) have been counting days until the next book, bought advance tickets for the first day of the movie, bought the video the first day it came out, etc. his interest in fantasy is huge. lloyd alexander, ursula k leguin, madeliene l'engle, and a whole slew of new authors like lemony snickett, diane duane, eoin colfer. whatever i can get my hands on and get into his, he eats it up. LoTR was lovingly done with real craft and an infectious enthusiasm for the series; we loved it as well. my son lamented the fact he has to wait for the next 'book' to come out in the theatre. he said he would have happily brought a pillow and sat for nine hours, no problem. i told him he didn't have to wait, and gave him my copies of the books, which he enjoyed many nights by flashlight under the covers, and went on to read the hobbit. when he gets a bit older he's going to love steven's books too. *here's hoping* that the successes of LoTR and Harry Potter gives hollywood a lesson in the draw of well-crafted fantasy movies.] lisa grant coffin From alan at 5sc.net Fri Jun 28 06:04:30 2002 From: alan at 5sc.net (Alan) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 09:04:30 -0400 Subject: "Fantasy" Films In-Reply-To: <3D1BA920.6020703@networkharmoni.com.au> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew Bailey [mailto:andrew at networkharmoni.com.au] > Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 20:09 > To: Dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: "Fantasy" Films > > > Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > > > I have been disaapointed with many of the recent releases, > namely Starship Troopers. > > A great book could have been made into a great movie. The director and > > producers chose instead to adapt the book to fit their budget. > > Ok I have to disagree with this. I found Starship Troopers to be a good > film not so much cause of its special effects, but more because of it > being an underlying resistant adaption of the book. That is one of the > things I enjoy about SF is the commentry upon society. > > On the other hand, I have no taste when it comes to movies. I liked > Hudson Hawk:) > > > Andrew. > I liked Starship Troopers. I thought it did a pretty good job of staying with the book. Keep in mind that I read the book as a juvenile, and it was part of Mr. Heinleins "buggle gum" science fiction writings. Johnny was perfectly cast. Denise Richards was supposed to be a petite blonde, but who cared ? :) I enjoy effort. I criticize when I can do a better job. Among those on my SF comfort shelf : Aliens2 ( Worldcon 2004: Vote LB426! ) LadyHawk Forbidden Planet Ferris Beuller ( Hey, if this doesn't qualify as fantasy, what does ? ) Jurassic Park The Abyss Stargate Ghostbusters Armegeddon D&D ( watch it with a sense of humor ) Dragonslayer Predator Real Genius Young Frankenstein ( Frau BREUKER! ) The Last Starfighter Spacecamp Big Trouble in Little China Who Framed Roger Rabbit The Name of the Rose Sneakers Monty Python ( any really, but Holy Grail of course ) Bill and Ted ( both ) The Day the Earth Stood Still The Mummy Shrek ( The last 2 minutes are worth the whole movie ) Dr. Who and the Pirate Planet Army of Darkness ( Trapped in Time, surrounded by evil, low on gas ) X-Men Batman ( Michael Keaton was the best in that roll ) Most recently: Harry Potter ( *shrug* I liked it, sue me ) Spiderman ( I work in the internet industry, *you* figure it out. ~grin~ ) In Search of: Stowaway to the Moon Salvage I Hawk the Slayer Alan ( and I liked Hudson Hawk too. One of my favorites, actually. ) From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jun 28 06:57:26 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 06:57:26 -0700 Subject: "Fantasy" Films In-Reply-To: References: <29BB9A13.320F8938.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020628065640.00a72860@pop3.lvcm.com> At 03:17 AM 6/28/2002 -0500, Gametech wrote: >What about the Princess Bride? Okay. Right. I'll give you that one. That was brilliant. From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jun 28 07:12:06 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:12:06 -0400 Subject: "Fantasy" Films Message-ID: <500B052D.349B0C13.0296E7C9@aol.com> In a message dated Fri, 28 Jun 2002 8:57:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > Okay. Right. I'll give you that one. That was brilliant. My faith in you is restored. :) You know, I think the reason we "forget" TPB is because it was so good, it really didn't have the "feel" of a "fantasy movie." It was almost like being in the presence of a really good storyteller - one who makes your own imagination come alive because their storytelling skill is so fantastic. I had completely forgotten about TPB myself. But you are right - that movie was/is brilliant. Considering how often I enjoy throwing out witty lines from the movie, I can't believe I forgot to mention it. Stacy From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jun 28 07:19:57 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 07:19:57 -0700 Subject: "Fantasy" Films In-Reply-To: <500B052D.349B0C13.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020628071833.00a53170@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:12 AM 6/28/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >In a message dated Fri, 28 Jun 2002 8:57:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, >skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > > > Okay. Right. I'll give you that one. That was brilliant. > >My faith in you is restored. :) You know, I think the reason we "forget" >TPB is because it was so good, it really didn't have the "feel" of a >"fantasy movie." I think that is exactly right. >Considering how often I enjoy throwing out witty lines from the movie, I >can't believe I forgot to mention it. Whenever I'm at an event where they pass out those stick-on tags that say, "Hello, my name is..." I put in "Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die." That I stole this from Mike Ford doesn't make it any less fun. From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jun 28 07:38:29 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:38:29 -0400 Subject: "Fantasy" Films Message-ID: <0D7D732E.638B3BB7.0296E7C9@aol.com> In a message dated Fri, 28 Jun 2002 9:19:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > Whenever I'm at an event where they pass out those stick-on >tags that say, > "Hello, my name is..." I put in "Inigo >Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die." That I >stole this from Mike Ford doesn't make it any less fun. -snickering- From stvitus at flash.net Fri Jun 28 08:08:37 2002 From: stvitus at flash.net (nikki m. pill) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:08:37 -0500 Subject: "Fantasy" Films/HP/Dream casts References: <3D1C2A05.3020301@zip.com.au> <007801c21ea0$b71bfaa0$1401a8c0@Spencer> Message-ID: <00ab01c21eb5$b158dce0$0201a8c0@kelly> > frankNfi wrote: > > of the comic & Harry Potter is so close> > to the book it is scary. I can't help wishing there were 2 versions of that movie, though... This one was directed by the same people who made Home Alone, and while HP isn't necessarily a kids' book, the movie is DEFINITELY a kids' movie. It's very, very, very close to the book, I agree... But I wish there were a Tim Burton version that kept the more "grown-up" humor. It's about time Tim Burton had a decent script to work with anyway. At a party, I was discussing FoTR with a friend (actually, we were talking about what we wish the film had done with Galadriel... the "lock of your hair" scene is one of the most touching in all literature), and someone barged in, insisting that you CAN'T compare a film with a book, because they're too separate. Now, I think it's a great idea to try seeing the film as a separate entity, because they are two different mediums, so they can't translate exactly. However, he insisted that it's like saying Monet or Picasso aren't good artists because their paintings aren't exact translations of the real world. I, who personally detest both painters, told him it's a perfectly valid reason... but I think that was irritation speaking. Thoughts? And if we could make a movie out of Steven's books... There aren't many actresses that I'd drop everything to see, except Helena Bonham-Carter -- and she doesn't seem all that Dragaeran. Vlad: Gabriel Byrne Cawti: PLEASE GOD NOT LIV TYLER. Sethra: IS there anyone who could pull this role off??? Maybe Glenn Close. Kragar: Tim Curry Morrolan: Jeremy Irons Aliera: Michelle Pfieffer? Khaavren: Gary Oldman or Cary Elwes Tazendra: Angelina Jolie? Aerich: John Malkovich Pel: Peter Murphy (So what if he's never acted? This IS a "dream" cast). Tim Roth. Adron: Rutger Hauer I will SHOOT myself if Kenneth Branagh comes anywhere near the script. Who should direct it? My favorite directors would put their own personal weirdness in it -- I shudder to imagine Darren Aronofsky or Peter Greenaway trying to direct *Jhereg.* Gilliam might do it well, as long as he doesn't get too carried away. Peter Jackson might be able to pull it off. I'd like to get some of the artistic directors from *The Cell* involved, especially for *Taltos.* Nikki From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Jun 28 08:09:16 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 11:09:16 -0400 Subject: "Fantasy" Films/HP/Dream casts In-Reply-To: <00ab01c21eb5$b158dce0$0201a8c0@kelly> Message-ID: <034E4D8A-8AA9-11D6-A0E8-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Friday, June 28, 2002, at 11:08 AM, nikki m. pill wrote: > > HP also had brilliant casting...I mean everyone just fit. I love Alan Rickman as Snape. Alan Rickman plays dark characters so well. ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Jun 28 10:05:51 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 28 Jun 2002 12:05:51 -0500 Subject: "Fantasy" Films In-Reply-To: <001f01c21e62$e5e0abd0$380ea8c0@local.secureinteractive.com> References: <3D1BA920.6020703@networkharmoni.com.au> <001f01c21e62$e5e0abd0$380ea8c0@local.secureinteractive.com> Message-ID: "Nigel Leslie" writes: > With all due respect I think you have have been looking merely at the > 'Bug-Hunting' veneer of the movie of Starship Troopers. > There are some very strong anti-fascist and proganda statements within the > movie, often hidden within metaphor and symbolism. The Director's Commentary > on the DVD version is particularly enlightening, almost predicting America's > current (and future?) stance. I feel like it's getting a bit far off-topic for here, anyway, so I'm going to let it drop for now. If he'd wanted to make a movie completely unrelated to Starship Troopers (which is in no way Fascist; it's closer to Libertarian), I think he shouldn't have claimed to be making a movie of Starship Troopers. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Jun 28 10:08:33 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 28 Jun 2002 12:08:33 -0500 Subject: "Fantasy" Films [LoTR, H.P.] In-Reply-To: <007801c21ea0$b71bfaa0$1401a8c0@Spencer> References: <3D1C2A05.3020301@zip.com.au> <007801c21ea0$b71bfaa0$1401a8c0@Spencer> Message-ID: "Lisa Grant Coffin" writes: > when he gets a bit older he's going to love steven's books too. *here's > hoping* that the successes of LoTR and Harry Potter gives hollywood a lesson > in the draw of well-crafted fantasy movies.] This is probably where I should recommend Diane Duane's Young Wizards books (starting with _So You Want To Be A Wizard_). Contemporary fantasy in which the younger you are, the more powerful a wizard you are (if you're a wizard at all), but it takes time to learn expertise and finesse. Very powerful books, especially _Deep Wizardry_. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Jun 28 10:10:30 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 28 Jun 2002 12:10:30 -0500 Subject: "Fantasy" Films In-Reply-To: <3D1C2E18.7000508@zip.com.au> References: <3D1BA920.6020703@networkharmoni.com.au> <3D1C2E18.7000508@zip.com.au> Message-ID: frankNfi writes: > Heinlein seems to me to have written in Starship Troopers an > extrapolation of his experience in the US Navy in the > Pacific in WW2, all duty , inhuman enemy and being drooped into & > pulled out of the fighting to the safety of the ships. Interesting theory, but Heinlein was medically retired from the Navy in, I believe, 1934; before the war, anyway. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From alan at 5sc.net Fri Jun 28 10:15:55 2002 From: alan at 5sc.net (Alan) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 13:15:55 -0400 Subject: "Fantasy" Films [LoTR, H.P.] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: David Dyer-Bennet [mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net] > Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 13:09 > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: "Fantasy" Films [LoTR, H.P.] > > > "Lisa Grant Coffin" writes: > > > when he gets a bit older he's going to love steven's books too. *here's > > hoping* that the successes of LoTR and Harry Potter gives > hollywood a lesson > > in the draw of well-crafted fantasy movies.] > > This is probably where I should recommend Diane Duane's Young Wizards > books (starting with _So You Want To Be A Wizard_). Contemporary > fantasy in which the younger you are, the more powerful a wizard you > are (if you're a wizard at all), but it takes time to learn expertise > and finesse. Very powerful books, especially _Deep Wizardry_. > -- Concur. I love re-reading these. Alan From mss2 at attbi.com Fri Jun 28 10:45:04 2002 From: mss2 at attbi.com (Michael S. Schiffer) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 12:45:04 -0500 Subject: "Fantasy" Films [LoTR, H.P.] In-Reply-To: References: <007801c21ea0$b71bfaa0$1401a8c0@Spencer> <3D1C2A05.3020301@zip.com.au> <007801c21ea0$b71bfaa0$1401a8c0@Spencer> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020628123833.03a96e40@mail.attbi.com> At 12:08 PM 6/28/2002 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > >... >This is probably where I should recommend Diane Duane's Young Wizards >books (starting with _So You Want To Be A Wizard_). Contemporary >fantasy in which the younger you are, the more powerful a wizard you >are (if you're a wizard at all), but it takes time to learn expertise >and finesse. Very powerful books, especially _Deep Wizardry_. I think _Deep Wizardry_ lost a lot of its power by S P O I L E R S copping out on the ending. I understand the problems involved in killing off a young adolescent girl, let alone your series protagonist, in a YA story. But I think it's cheating to get as much mileage as that story did over the necessity of such a sacrifice and the process of the protagonist reconciling to it, and then pull a rabbit out of a hat at the end to save her. The shark's decision didn't IMHO fit his character, and it that it worked didn't seem to fit what we'd been previously told about the situation. That said, they're good books, with a lot of nice subtle touches, and they're worth reading. Mike From randomhonky at hotmail.com Fri Jun 28 11:05:07 2002 From: randomhonky at hotmail.com (T J) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 14:05:07 -0400 Subject: "Fantasy" Films/HP/Dream casts Message-ID: >Sethra: IS there anyone who could pull this role off??? Maybe Glenn Close. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From randomhonky at hotmail.com Fri Jun 28 11:05:07 2002 From: randomhonky at hotmail.com (T J) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 14:05:07 -0400 Subject: "Fantasy" Films/HP/Dream casts Message-ID: >Sethra: IS there anyone who could pull this role off??? Maybe Glenn Close. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From ijamie at sympatico.ca Fri Jun 28 12:59:43 2002 From: ijamie at sympatico.ca (Ian sympatico) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 15:59:43 -0400 Subject: "Fantasy" Films/HP/Dream casts References: <3D1C2A05.3020301@zip.com.au> <007801c21ea0$b71bfaa0$1401a8c0@Spencer> <00ab01c21eb5$b158dce0$0201a8c0@kelly> Message-ID: <001501c21ede$58f4b3c0$e8815f41@idirect.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "nikki m. pill" To: > Sethra: IS there anyone who could pull this role off??? Maybe Glenn Close. Got to be Angelica Houston (did I spell that right?) > > > > From dale.kunz at wcom.com Fri Jun 28 13:01:25 2002 From: dale.kunz at wcom.com (Dale Kunz) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 14:01:25 -0600 Subject: "Fantasy" Films/HP/Dream casts In-Reply-To: <001501c21ede$58f4b3c0$e8815f41@idirect.com> Message-ID: Both are good for style, but too old to be cast now... How about Lucy Lawless? :-) > -----Original Message----- > From: Ian sympatico [mailto:ijamie at sympatico.ca] > Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 2:00 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: "Fantasy" Films/HP/Dream casts > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "nikki m. pill" > To: > > > > Sethra: IS there anyone who could pull this role off??? Maybe > Glenn Close. > > Got to be Angelica Houston (did I spell that right?) > > > > > > > > > > > From ijamie at sympatico.ca Fri Jun 28 13:10:18 2002 From: ijamie at sympatico.ca (Ian sympatico) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 16:10:18 -0400 Subject: "Fantasy" Films/HP/Dream casts References: Message-ID: <002f01c21edf$d2ea35a0$e8815f41@idirect.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dale Kunz" To: Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 4:01 PM Subject: RE: "Fantasy" Films/HP/Dream casts > Both are good for style, but too old to be cast now... > > How about Lucy Lawless? :-) Sethra is ageless and undead!!!! And so is Angelica Ian > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ian sympatico [mailto:ijamie at sympatico.ca] > > Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 2:00 PM > > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > > Subject: Re: "Fantasy" Films/HP/Dream casts > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "nikki m. pill" > > To: > > > > > > > Sethra: IS there anyone who could pull this role off??? Maybe > > Glenn Close. > > > > Got to be Angelica Houston (did I spell that right?) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jun 28 13:26:06 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 16:26:06 EDT Subject: "Fantasy" Films/HP/Dream casts Message-ID: <16b.fc1d56f.2a4e205e@aol.com> Actually, I think Michelle Pfiefer could play Sethra - just dye her hair dark. Or Cate Blanchett (again, with hair dyed). Stacy From yhcrana13 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 28 15:17:07 2002 From: yhcrana13 at hotmail.com (A. Nonymous) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 17:17:07 -0500 Subject: "Fantasy" Films/HP/Dream casts Message-ID: Sethra? I've always thought Angelica Houston or Sigourney Weaver... They're both pretty evil. Josh Collins The Guide is definitive. Reality is frequently inaccurate. (Douglas Adams - The Restaurant at the End of the Universe) yhcrana13 at hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From stvitus at flash.net Fri Jun 28 16:16:26 2002 From: stvitus at flash.net (Nikki M. Pill) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 18:16:26 -0500 Subject: More Dream casts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Josh wrote: > Sethra? I've always thought Angelica Houston or Sigourney Weaver... > They're both pretty evil. Sigourney is a brilliant choice too... Though she's not always an "evil" character, nor is Sethra -- so the flexibility is good. Just imagine Iceflame instead of flame throwers, and Jenoine instead of aliens. Could we get Geiger to design the Jenoine??? Stacy suggested: >Actually, I think Michelle Pfiefer could play Sethra - just dye her hair >dark. Or Cate Blanchett (again, with hair dyed). Michelle could do it. I still haven't forgiven Cate for the anemic Galadriel, though she was a good Elizabeth. More ideas: Taltos era: Teldra - Gong Li Demon - Christopher Walken Daymar - Alan Rickman... or perhaps Johnny Depp. We should just keep Johnny around and decide later because he can play anyone. Paarfi era: Mica - Kevin Spacey Garland - Michael Wincott Mario - Viggo Mortenson Nikki From randomhonky at hotmail.com Fri Jun 28 16:27:56 2002 From: randomhonky at hotmail.com (T J) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 19:27:56 -0400 Subject: and appearing as Sethra Lavode..... Message-ID: >Sethra: IS there anyone who could pull this role off??? Maybe Glenn Close. Sorry about those earlier emails, was at work, and had some problems. Anyway, as i see it, Sethra should be somone who can look very intelligent, as if intelligent by age, but not necessarily appear old. That is why my wote goes for Catherine Zeta-Jones, make that a Pale Catherine. She has the attitude (i know everything, you are in the way, MOVE!), the look ( finely aged, though not pushing the few mellinia of Sethra) and uhm, well, yeah. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From lisa at spindot.com Fri Jun 28 17:12:19 2002 From: lisa at spindot.com (Lisa Grant Coffin) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 20:12:19 -0400 Subject: More Dream casts References: Message-ID: <002001c21f01$a4753bd0$1401a8c0@Spencer> Nikki M. Pill wrote: > Mica - Kevin Spacey actually, i think Kevin Spacey would make an excellent Daymar lisa grant coffin From lisa at spindot.com Fri Jun 28 17:14:18 2002 From: lisa at spindot.com (Lisa Grant Coffin) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 20:14:18 -0400 Subject: "Fantasy" Films [LoTR, H.P.] References: <3D1C2A05.3020301@zip.com.au> <007801c21ea0$b71bfaa0$1401a8c0@Spencer> Message-ID: <002901c21f01$e9dabc90$1401a8c0@Spencer> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > "Lisa Grant Coffin" writes: > >> when he gets a bit older he's going to love steven's books too. >> *here's hoping* that the successes of LoTR and Harry Potter gives >> hollywood a lesson in the draw of well-crafted fantasy movies.] > > This is probably where I should recommend Diane Duane's Young Wizards > books (starting with _So You Want To Be A Wizard_). Contemporary > fantasy in which the younger you are, the more powerful a wizard you > are (if you're a wizard at all), but it takes time to learn expertise > and finesse. Very powerful books, especially _Deep Wizardry_. hah! bought four of them for him last week! :) it's rather hard to stay ahead of you ddb, deserving of a hah! thanks for the rec, more are certainly welcome lisa grant coffin From frank at exit.com Fri Jun 28 17:14:49 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 17:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More Dream casts In-Reply-To: <002001c21f01$a4753bd0$1401a8c0@Spencer> Message-ID: <200206290014.g5T0En6I089640@realtime.exit.com> Lisa Grant Coffin wrote: > actually, i think Kevin Spacey would make an excellent Daymar William Hurt. In one of his more spaced-out moments. :-) -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From yhcrana13 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 28 19:29:08 2002 From: yhcrana13 at hotmail.com (A. Nonymous) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 21:29:08 -0500 Subject: More Dream casts Message-ID: >Josh wrote: > > > Sethra? I've always thought Angelica Houston or Sigourney Weaver... > > They're both pretty evil. > >Sigourney is a brilliant choice too... Though she's not always an "evil" >character, nor is Sethra -- so the flexibility is good. Just imagine >Iceflame instead of flame throwers, and Jenoine instead of aliens. Could we >get Geiger to design the Jenoine??? Ahh, let me explain. My friends and I use "evil" as a synonym for cool, or totally sweet. This is why we've named our company Evil Industries Inc. Also, Walken or John Malkovich would be very sweet as the Demon. I don't know why, but I can really see Matthew McConaughey as Tortaalik. For Vlad and Loiosh it has to be suitably sarcastic people. Maybe Bruce Campbell and/or Denis Leary in either role. josh collins The Guide is definative. Reality is frequently inaccurate. (Douglas Adams - The Restaurant at the End of the Universe) yhcrana13 at hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From pereillo at optonline.net Fri Jun 28 20:49:04 2002 From: pereillo at optonline.net (Dr. Kathleen Pereillo) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 23:49:04 -0400 Subject: Film : Dragaera Dream Casting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c21f1f$ea6cc7c0$b57ba8c0@Magellan> Dale Kunz wrote: > With all this talk of poor films of the past, and great film > potential for the future, its got me thinking: have y'all done dream > casting for the Dragaera books yet? > I'll throw one out there to get the ball rolling: > Vlad - Colin Farrel (Fed in Minority Report, check out some of his > other roles) > > If this has been done to death previously, please ignore me and I'll > go back to my corner :-) > > -D >>Delurk<< Ooh, this is fun! I've thought about "dream casting" for awhile now... I'm glad that I'm not the only obsessed Dragaera fan! Vlad John Cusack (too tall?) Cawti Jennifer Connolly Kragar Kevin Kline/Colin Firth Daymar Hank Azaria Baritt John Cleese/Alan Rickman Sethra Angelica Huston/Sigourney Weaver (I wrote that before they were suggested! GMTA!!!) Necromancer Bebe Newirth (if only she were taller) Aliera Charlize Theron/Peta Wilson Morrollan Oded Fehr/Rupert Everett Zerika Jenna Elfman/Daryl Hannah Teldra Sandra Bullock Noish Pa Peter Falk Dr. Kathy Pereillo From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jun 28 20:57:02 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 23:57:02 EDT Subject: Film : Dragaera Dream Casting Message-ID: <42.296aa70d.2a4e8a0e@aol.com> In a message dated 6/28/2002 9:53:42 PM Mountain Daylight Time, pereillo at optonline.net writes: > Morrollan Oded Fehr Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Fri Jun 28 21:35:52 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 23:35:52 -0500 Subject: "Fantasy" Films/HP/Dream casts References: Message-ID: >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "nikki m. pill" >> To: >> >> >>> Sethra: IS there anyone who could pull this role off??? Maybe Glenn >>> Close. >> >> Got to be Angelica Houston (did I spell that right?) Dale Kunz wrote: > Both are good for style, but too old to be cast now... > > How about Lucy Lawless? :-) > If you made Lucy look old I don't think she'd look quite right, but I could be wrong amazing things can be done with make-up From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Fri Jun 28 21:40:13 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 23:40:13 -0500 Subject: "Fantasy" Films/HP/Dream casts References: <16b.fc1d56f.2a4e205e@aol.com> Message-ID: what about Fairuza Balk as Aliera? From stvitus at flash.net Fri Jun 28 22:24:09 2002 From: stvitus at flash.net (Nikki M. Pill) Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 00:24:09 -0500 Subject: More Dream casts In-Reply-To: <002001c21f01$a4753bd0$1401a8c0@Spencer> Message-ID: Lisa Grant Coffin wrote: > > actually, i think Kevin Spacey would make an excellent Daymar Kevin Spacey definitely has the sense of humor to pull it off... So if he's playing Daymar, we can make Alan Rickman G'aereth. Johnny Depp could be Mica. Oded Fehr is excellent. I am then tempted to make Gabriel Byrne Khaavren. Gary Oldman could be Shaltre. I hate to typecast him AGAIN, but imagine him playing off Michael Wincott! Willem Dafoe as Laris? Maybe we should save Angelica Huston for Verra. Nikki, geeking P. S. Directing style -- perhaps a Peter Jackson FoTR feel for the Paarfi romances, but for the Taltos series, a Guy Ritchie, *Snatch* style. From dale.kunz at wcom.com Sat Jun 29 08:32:24 2002 From: dale.kunz at wcom.com (Dale Kunz) Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 09:32:24 -0600 Subject: "Fantasy" Films/HP/Dream casts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: She would lend the role the requisite psycho factor... > -----Original Message----- > From: Gametech [mailto:voltronalpha at hotmail.com] > Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 10:40 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: "Fantasy" Films/HP/Dream casts > > > what about Fairuza Balk as Aliera? From rone at ennui.org Sat Jun 29 12:18:29 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (figmentality) Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 12:18:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More Dream casts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020629191829.9F12E26E24@boredom.ennui.org> A. Nonymous writes: Also, Walken or John Malkovich would be very sweet as the Demon. The Demon is young, so i don't think either would work. Also, Malkovich might not be a good choice for a Dragaeran because they don't lose their hair... As for Cawti... Christina Ricci. rone -- Constancy of the speed of light is a conclusion, yes it is a conclusion based on nonconvincing, irrational assumptions. WHAT IS LIGHT?! Whose light? From what sourse? Please do not mention electronagnetics - the same applies to them. - Alexander Abian From lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com Sat Jun 29 15:43:09 2002 From: lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com (Lowki Liesmith) Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:43:09 -0400 Subject: More Dream casts Message-ID: I think that vlad should be played by jhonny depp. he isabout what 34-35 years old appearently enjoys having a mustasche because i never seen him without one plus he is so cool and when i read that is who i picture as Vlad. think about it. --Lowki >From: "Nikki M. Pill" >To: >Subject: More Dream casts >Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 18:16:26 -0500 > >Josh wrote: > > > Sethra? I've always thought Angelica Houston or Sigourney Weaver... > > They're both pretty evil. > >Sigourney is a brilliant choice too... Though she's not always an "evil" >character, nor is Sethra -- so the flexibility is good. Just imagine >Iceflame instead of flame throwers, and Jenoine instead of aliens. Could we >get Geiger to design the Jenoine??? > >Stacy suggested: > > >Actually, I think Michelle Pfiefer could play Sethra - just dye her hair > >dark. Or Cate Blanchett (again, with hair dyed). > >Michelle could do it. I still haven't forgiven Cate for the anemic >Galadriel, though she was a good Elizabeth. > >More ideas: > >Taltos era: > >Teldra - Gong Li >Demon - Christopher Walken >Daymar - Alan Rickman... or perhaps Johnny Depp. We should just keep Johnny >around and decide later because he can play anyone. > >Paarfi era: > >Mica - Kevin Spacey >Garland - Michael Wincott >Mario - Viggo Mortenson > >Nikki _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From scs at di.org Sat Jun 29 18:27:43 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 21:27:43 -0400 Subject: "Fantasy" Films/HP/Dream casts Message-ID: <20020630012743.GA4394@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> nikki m. pill writes: > Sethra: IS there anyone who could pull this role off??? Angelica Huston would be great, tho she might be a bit old for the role now. Who played the witch in `Legend of Sleepy Hollow'? Great performance, she could do Sethra. Maybe save Huston for The Necromancer. And Alan Rickman as Krager. Frank Mayhar wrote: > Frank Mayhar [for Daymar]. In one of his more spaced-out moments. :-) Whose, Hurts or Daymars? :-) -- ``You gotta distinguish between telling a tale for amusement, as in "Well, there I was facing down the crowds at Riotcon...", and telling it for the record, as in "Well, you see, officer, it happened like this...". (Actually, that might not be the best example.)'' -- Chris Clayton, in private email From FelixEisen at aol.com Sun Jun 30 22:10:37 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 01:10:37 EDT Subject: "Fantasy" Films [LoTR, H.P.] Message-ID: <105.17fab85d.2a513e4d@aol.com> Mike writes, regarding 'Deep Wizardry': > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > S > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > copping out on the ending. I understand the problems involved in killing > off a young adolescent girl, let alone your series protagonist, in a YA > story. But I think it's cheating to get as much mileage as that story did > over the necessity of such a sacrifice and the process of the protagonist > reconciling to it, and then pull a rabbit out of a hat at the end to save > her. The shark's decision didn't IMHO fit his character, and it that it > worked didn't seem to fit what we'd been previously told about the situation. I think I disagree with you an enormous amount. While I haven't re-read this book in a while, and as a consequence I don't remember the girl's name (though I remember Kit's), I believe that Diane copped out not a whit on the ending. Through the entire book, as in the first, a young woman has to face the possibility -- though in this case, the probability -- that she is going to die. In 'So You Want to Be a Wizard', she has to deal with a close friend's death and its aftermath; in 'Deep Wizardry', she has to deal with her own impending death, and most importantly stay -balanced- about it, or else the Master-Shark (or whatever his title was) was going to end her pain right then and there. Side note -- I've always taken great delight in sharks; now I have a reason why. However, the Master-Shark's action seems to me to be eminently in-character for him. Consider that, in all of the reenactments of the ceremony they are doing, there has only ever been written in the shark's place 'the Master-Shark'. It has long been my preference to believe that the shark they met was -the- Master-Shark -- the original, the first. As it was put in the book, sharks do not die of age, of senescence; they are killed, by disease, by other predators, by something they ate. The Master-Shark was the supreme 'ender-of-pain' of his kind; I think that he was -tired-, and meeting Our Heroine just pointed it out to him. That sort of tiredness is an emotional pain, and he knew it in himself; as a consequence, to end his own pain, he persuaded ... is it Juanita? I don't remember ... to will her magic over to him, so that he might take her place as sacrifice -- and end his own pain. As well, Juanita (or whatever) was at that point -ready- for her own death; she was not, in any way, prepared for the Master-Shark's. His sacrifice wounded her as much or more than the one in the first book; Juanita in her own way loved and admired the Master-Shark, and he, her. This is one of the very few books that has ever made me cry; it is a very wrenching moment. But I was inordinately pleased to see him in Timeheart ... Felix Eisen aka Thomas Crain