From alan at 5sc.net Mon Jul 1 05:16:42 2002 From: alan at 5sc.net (Alan) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 08:16:42 -0400 Subject: More Dream casts In-Reply-To: <002001c21f01$a4753bd0$1401a8c0@Spencer> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Lisa Grant Coffin [mailto:lisa at spindot.com] > Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 20:12 > To: Nikki M. Pill; dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: More Dream casts > > > Nikki M. Pill wrote: > > > Mica - Kevin Spacey > > actually, i think Kevin Spacey would make an excellent Daymar > > lisa grant coffin > I do not know his name, but I visualize Daymar as the gentleman who played "Mr Holmes" w/Lowoxana Troi in StarTrek TNG. Alan From Starshadw at aol.com Mon Jul 1 06:25:32 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 09:25:32 -0400 Subject: More Dream casts Message-ID: <47F2A19C.51186156.0296E7C9@aol.com> In a message dated Mon, 1 Jul 2002 7:16:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, alan at 5sc.net writes: > I do not know his name, but I visualize Daymar as the > gentleman > who played "Mr Holmes" w/Lowoxana Troi in StarTrek TNG. Oh, wow! Yes, he would be great! Or the other actor - the one that played that traveler fellow (who eventually took Wesley away - thank GOD - because he was a "higher being" or some such) Stacy From kpadgett1 at cox.net Tue Jul 2 17:50:21 2002 From: kpadgett1 at cox.net (Ken Padgett) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 19:50:21 -0500 Subject: Paths of the Dead Message-ID: <001a01c2222b$a1a86120$1f106644@kscable.com> I am a newbie, so please pardon any glaring lapses in netiquette. There might be spoiler material for some, but I noticed at Amazon that there is an editorial review of PotD. I must say it made me even more anxious for November. Drat this waiting thing anyway. Ken From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Jul 5 13:07:43 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 15:07:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Need volunteer(s) Message-ID: <15653.64655.556598.357379@gw.dd-b.net> We need one or more volunteers to scan and OCR a book for us. Specifically, we need to scan and OCR _The Phoenix Guards_. I did _Jhereg_, _Yendi_, and _Teckla_ myself. Each of them took 2-3 hours to scan, OCR, and look at all the things the spellcheck queried. I was using a somewhat slow flatbed scanner (I chose it for its ability to handle photos, not for its speed; *and* it's several years old), and Abbyy FineReader 6.0 OCR. (Note that TPG is in the range of 2-3 times as big as any of those three; so on this basis TPG might take a bit over 6 hours total.) (So far as I can see it's legal to OCR a book you own; it's what you do with it *after* that that may be illegal. It's certainly legal to OCR a book *for the copyright holder*, that is, for Steven, and pass the file to him. If you do this for us, we do ask you *not* to distribute the results to *anybody* else!) Obviously you need to have a flatbed scanner to do this, and OCR software. The package I used is downloadable for a 15-hour trial (hours of actual use, not elapsed hours). And you need to be willing to risk or sacrifice a copy of the book in question; we don't have a budget or a pile of free copies of the books sitting around anywhere. It was easiest to do with the pages loose rather than bound, which was pretty easy to arrange -- for $0.50 Kinko's cut the binding off for me on their big guillotine paper cutter. This does have the downside of ruining the book; but a used paperback in poor condition works fine for scanning. Doing it with the pages bound probably ruins the book anyway, through pressing it down flat on the scanner. When we get to the rare books, it may be worth considering alternatives, like photographing the pages with a digital camera. Anybody interested, please get in touch with me by email, dd-b at dd-b.net (no point tying up the group for it). I will provide more details about what we do and don't want in the resulting files, and coordinate assigning page number ranges to various volunteers. I'm hoping those who volunteer can put in a few hours fairly soon -- say, three people each putting in three hours in the next week would get the book done. This is for the full-text search engine for the books. We hope to make this available in "alpha" test mode to a very few selected people relatively soon (sorry, I've already figured out who I want to ask), and it will be a part of the new public web site when it opens. It'll also be useful to Steven to have an etext of the published version of the book (especially so for TPG, since the manuscript etext appears to have been lost). Oh, in fairness, I should say there's still some possibility a problem (political / legal) with making the search engine publicly available *could* still crop up, though it now looks unlikely. We will, of course, credit the people who scanned particular books for us in the credits on the search engine. I'm currently using Steven's manuscript etext for Issola and 500 Year's After, and will probably start with that for more recent books where one is available. But having the search engine reflect the actual published text is the long-term goal, so eventually if this goes ahead we'll need to scan the rest of the books, too. (Looking at the amount of work the scanning is, it's pretty clearly less work to just do the scan than it is to collate the manuscript etext manually against the published copy and update it.) -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From anthony at netdocuments.com Fri Jul 5 13:11:06 2002 From: anthony at netdocuments.com (Anthony Tedjamulia) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 14:11:06 -0600 Subject: Need volunteer(s) Message-ID: I'd do The Pheonix Guards except that I like my quality sleeping time, my job, my girlfriend, my life in general. . . . -----Original Message----- From: David Dyer-Bennet [mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net] Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 2:08 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Need volunteer(s) We need one or more volunteers to scan and OCR a book for us. Specifically, we need to scan and OCR _The Phoenix Guards_. I did _Jhereg_, _Yendi_, and _Teckla_ myself. Each of them took 2-3 hours to scan, OCR, and look at all the things the spellcheck queried. I was using a somewhat slow flatbed scanner (I chose it for its ability to handle photos, not for its speed; *and* it's several years old), and Abbyy FineReader 6.0 OCR. (Note that TPG is in the range of 2-3 times as big as any of those three; so on this basis TPG might take a bit over 6 hours total.) (So far as I can see it's legal to OCR a book you own; it's what you do with it *after* that that may be illegal. It's certainly legal to OCR a book *for the copyright holder*, that is, for Steven, and pass the file to him. If you do this for us, we do ask you *not* to distribute the results to *anybody* else!) Obviously you need to have a flatbed scanner to do this, and OCR software. The package I used is downloadable for a 15-hour trial (hours of actual use, not elapsed hours). And you need to be willing to risk or sacrifice a copy of the book in question; we don't have a budget or a pile of free copies of the books sitting around anywhere. It was easiest to do with the pages loose rather than bound, which was pretty easy to arrange -- for $0.50 Kinko's cut the binding off for me on their big guillotine paper cutter. This does have the downside of ruining the book; but a used paperback in poor condition works fine for scanning. Doing it with the pages bound probably ruins the book anyway, through pressing it down flat on the scanner. When we get to the rare books, it may be worth considering alternatives, like photographing the pages with a digital camera. Anybody interested, please get in touch with me by email, dd-b at dd-b.net (no point tying up the group for it). I will provide more details about what we do and don't want in the resulting files, and coordinate assigning page number ranges to various volunteers. I'm hoping those who volunteer can put in a few hours fairly soon -- say, three people each putting in three hours in the next week would get the book done. This is for the full-text search engine for the books. We hope to make this available in "alpha" test mode to a very few selected people relatively soon (sorry, I've already figured out who I want to ask), and it will be a part of the new public web site when it opens. It'll also be useful to Steven to have an etext of the published version of the book (especially so for TPG, since the manuscript etext appears to have been lost). Oh, in fairness, I should say there's still some possibility a problem (political / legal) with making the search engine publicly available *could* still crop up, though it now looks unlikely. We will, of course, credit the people who scanned particular books for us in the credits on the search engine. I'm currently using Steven's manuscript etext for Issola and 500 Year's After, and will probably start with that for more recent books where one is available. But having the search engine reflect the actual published text is the long-term goal, so eventually if this goes ahead we'll need to scan the rest of the books, too. (Looking at the amount of work the scanning is, it's pretty clearly less work to just do the scan than it is to collate the manuscript etext manually against the published copy and update it.) -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jul 5 15:42:53 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 18:42:53 EDT Subject: Need volunteer(s) Message-ID: <180.9fadcba.2a577aed@aol.com> In a message dated 7/5/2002 2:08:17 PM Mountain Daylight Time, dd-b at dd-b.net writes: > This is for the full-text search engine for the books. We hope to > make this available in "alpha" test mode to a very few selected people > relatively soon (sorry, I've already figured out who I want to ask), > and it will be a part of the new public web site when it opens. My heavens, have you any idea how helpful that would be to me in trying to piece together world info for the RPG????? :) From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Jul 5 15:55:10 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 18:55:10 -0400 Subject: Need volunteer(s) Message-ID: <0F85DAC9.4BA2277F.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Fri, 5 Jul 2002 3:07:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, David Dyer-Bennet writes: >Obviously you need to have a flatbed scanner to do this, and OCR >software. ?The package I used is downloadable for a 15-hour trial >(hours of actual use, not elapsed hours). ?And you need to be willing >to risk or sacrifice a copy of the book in question; we don't have a >budget or a pile of free copies of the books sitting around anywhere. > >It was easiest to do with the pages loose rather than bound, which was >pretty easy to arrange -- for $0.50 Kinko's cut the binding off for me >on their big guillotine paper cutter. ?This does have the downside of >ruining the book; but a used paperback in poor condition works fine >for scanning. ?Doing it with the pages bound probably ruins the book >anyway, through pressing it down flat on the scanner. ?When we get to >the rare books, it may be worth considering alternatives, like >photographing the pages with a digital camera. I scanned my copy of _Athyra_ on a flatbed scanner, and it didn't cause much damage. It won't be mistaken for a new book, but it's still in better condition many other books I purchased used. In fact, the only "damage" seemed to be a tilt to the spine, and that disappeared after being wedged on my bookshelf for a couple months. BTW, whose job is it to correct all the mistakes the OCR software puts in? For those of you who haven't tried scanning text, current state of the art OCR software is about 99% accurate. That means about 1 out of every 100 *characters* will be wrong. This is why Eric Flint over on rasfw said its cheaper to simply hire a professional typist to retype the whole thing. --KG From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jul 5 16:08:49 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 19:08:49 EDT Subject: Stacy's Latest Acquisitions Message-ID: <6f.2a02df21.2a578101@aol.com> Ahhhhh, more books. I love it. Two new additions to the "good grief, why on earth do you have THAT?" collection: The Idiot's Guide to Voodoo (no kidding - it's actually one of those yellow/white/black books like the ones for software programs. It's great, I love it) Poisons of the Past (historian with an very interesting theory about mold and certain events in history like the Salem witch trials and the Plague) From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jul 5 16:24:53 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 19:24:53 EDT Subject: Tidnits for Steve (when he gets back) Message-ID: <14d.1055d025.2a5784c5@aol.com> Was just perusing the weblog.... June 8th: I should introduce you to my father. He came very close to being a professional gambler once upon a time, and he still loves to play poker whenever he can. When he comes to visit us (myself, and two younger sisters) out here in Colorado, he always takes a trip up to Cripple Creek for some poker playing. June 14th - what makes you think ALL of your fans aren't nut cases?? We just blend better than Gaiman's nut cases. >;) June 18th: American History makes my teeth itch......I've never enjoyed it. Not one bit. Which is probably why........ June 28th: Better be careful - you'll soon be in my territory (or at least, familiar territory). I have an MA in Medieval History (with a smidgen of Renaissance thrown in because they made me and because the uni I went to had no Ancient History tract to do instead). June 29th: this is cool, is it not? All of the computers on the uni campus I work at part-time have the SETI thing crunching away whenever someone isn't using the computer. Stacy From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jul 5 16:32:02 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 19:32:02 EDT Subject: Will the Time Lord please stand up? Message-ID: <13c.10e348a8.2a578672@aol.com> I've trued digging through the archives (this one and the readalong because I seem to remember it showing up in both places at different times), but I can't find the post that talkes about how the Dragaeran dates and times work. I'd love to put that info on the website - would the person who did this please contact me? Stacy From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Jul 5 17:42:04 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 05 Jul 2002 19:42:04 -0500 Subject: Need volunteer(s) In-Reply-To: <0F85DAC9.4BA2277F.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <0F85DAC9.4BA2277F.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: Gaertk at aol.com writes: > In a message dated Fri, 5 Jul 2002 3:07:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, David Dyer-Bennet writes: > > >Obviously you need to have a flatbed scanner to do this, and OCR > >software. ?The package I used is downloadable for a 15-hour trial > >(hours of actual use, not elapsed hours). ?And you need to be willing > >to risk or sacrifice a copy of the book in question; we don't have a > >budget or a pile of free copies of the books sitting around anywhere. > > > >It was easiest to do with the pages loose rather than bound, which was > >pretty easy to arrange -- for $0.50 Kinko's cut the binding off for me > >on their big guillotine paper cutter. ?This does have the downside of > >ruining the book; but a used paperback in poor condition works fine > >for scanning. ?Doing it with the pages bound probably ruins the book > >anyway, through pressing it down flat on the scanner. ?When we get to > >the rare books, it may be worth considering alternatives, like > >photographing the pages with a digital camera. > > I scanned my copy of _Athyra_ on a flatbed scanner, and it > didn't cause much damage. It won't be mistaken for a new > book, but it's still in better condition many other books > I purchased used. In fact, the only "damage" seemed to be > a tilt to the spine, and that disappeared after being > wedged on my bookshelf for a couple months. > > BTW, whose job is it to correct all the mistakes the OCR > software puts in? For those of you who haven't tried > scanning text, current state of the art OCR software is > about 99% accurate. That means about 1 out of every 100 > *characters* will be wrong. This is why Eric Flint over > on rasfw said its cheaper to simply hire a professional > typist to retype the whole thing. The software I used produces copy considerably cleaner than that produced by a good copy-typist after you run through it's "spell check" function. That both does real spell checking (and you have to add a number of weird names to the dictionary when working with fantasy), and *also* in this product lets you look at and correct any word recognitions that it's doubtful about. It shows you both the bitmap image and the recognized text, and you can go in and edit the text arbitrarily to fix things it *didn't* have a question about if you happen to notice them. My 2-3 hours for each of the first 3 Vlad books was *including* the time to run through this spell / confidence check. I'm hoping to get results of roughly that quality from other people as well. (I found several actual typos in Jhereg in the process). I looked into commercial scanning and retyping services, and paying friends to type stuff in, and after I tried a good modern OCR product I find that OCR is *immensely* faster/cheaper than the other options. A good commercial typist won't exceed 100 words/minute over the course of a novel, so call it 1000 minutes or 16 2/3 hours for 100,000 (a good average, though the first three are shorter than that). Before any proofreading. I did Jhereg in *2* hours, *including* the spell / confidence check. (The current state of the art is considerably better than 99% on pure recognition, and *then* uses the dictionary to figure things out after that.) My experience with 1996-vintage OCR strongly suggested that paying people to type them in would be a win if I had to work with that level of OCR. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Jul 5 17:44:20 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 05 Jul 2002 19:44:20 -0500 Subject: Tidnits for Steve (when he gets back) In-Reply-To: <14d.1055d025.2a5784c5@aol.com> References: <14d.1055d025.2a5784c5@aol.com> Message-ID: Starshadw at aol.com writes: > June 29th: this is cool, is it not? All of the computers on the uni campus I > work at part-time have the SETI thing crunching away whenever someone isn't > using the computer. SETI is great fun. I'm currently at 2951 data units and counting. Somebody should start a Dragaera list SETI team (but I can't join; I'm already on the Minnesota Science Fiction Society (Minn-StF) team). I'm hoping my computer finds the "real" signal. Then I can get a t-shirt made which says "My computer detected the first signal from extraterrestrials, and all I got was this lousy t-shirt." -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Jul 5 18:26:28 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 21:26:28 -0400 Subject: Will the Time Lord please stand up? Message-ID: <21DF6968.6E7ABB32.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Fri, 5 Jul 2002 6:32:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, Starshadw at aol.com writes: >I've trued digging through the archives (this one and the readalong because I >seem to remember it showing up in both places at different times), but I >can't find the post that talkes about how the Dragaeran dates and times work. > I'd love to put that info on the website - would the person who did this >please contact me? That was me. The final result was in my first Notes post, and my detailed discussion was in a reply. Let's see if I can find it in the archives... ah, here it is: http://dragaera.info/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?2:mss:109:200206:jdahnfaepkapaogobmoo (That's one line, recombine if necessary) Also take a look at the time section of Cracks and Shards (link in my post). --KG From Starshadw at aol.com Sat Jul 6 10:56:57 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 13:56:57 EDT Subject: What's East of East?? Message-ID: <1bb.2cb05aa.2a588969@aol.com> I've been looking at the map in Brokedown Palace, and it looks to me like there may be a considerable amount of territory to the east of Fenario (and possible also to the south). And what is going on up there in the North? Do those mountains stop at the sea, or is there also land (or perhaps the two mountains chains become one large chain and continue north) above THEM as well? I'm assuming that there are/must be more "Easterner" kingdoms than just Fenario? Stacy From lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com Sat Jul 6 11:17:01 2002 From: lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com (Lowki Liesmith) Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 14:17:01 -0400 Subject: What's East of East?? Message-ID: maybe we will learn of that in the future brust books. >From: Starshadw at aol.com >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: What's East of East?? >Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 13:56:57 EDT > >I've been looking at the map in Brokedown Palace, and it looks to me like >there may be a considerable amount of territory to the east of Fenario (and >possible also to the south). And what is going on up there in the North? >Do >those mountains stop at the sea, or is there also land (or perhaps the two >mountains chains become one large chain and continue north) above THEM as >well? > >I'm assuming that there are/must be more "Easterner" kingdoms than just >Fenario? > >Stacy _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com Sat Jul 6 11:23:08 2002 From: lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com (Lowki Liesmith) Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 14:23:08 -0400 Subject: where is the readalong at? Message-ID: i see you all talking about it on the mailing list and no one told me where it is or i just deleted all of my messages one day without reading any of them. so can any one please tell me where and when, is it on a wab pageor what? _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From rone at ennui.org Sat Jul 6 11:31:08 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (figmentality) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 11:31:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's East of East?? In-Reply-To: <1bb.2cb05aa.2a588969@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020706183108.CD49426E2C@boredom.ennui.org> Starshadw at aol.com writes: I've been looking at the map in Brokedown Palace, and it looks to me like there may be a considerable amount of territory to the east of Fenario (and possible also to the south). And what is going on up there in the North? Do those mountains stop at the sea, or is there also land (or perhaps the two mountains chains become one large chain and continue north) above THEM as well? I'm gonna go with "There Be Dragyns Here". I'm assuming that there are/must be more "Easterner" kingdoms than just Fenario? S?ndor calls himself Alfredo, and the librarian in TPG is called Ricardo, so that lends me to believe there's an enclave of humans of Italian descent somewhere to the south of Fenario. rone -- Constancy of the speed of light is a conclusion, yes it is a conclusion based on nonconvincing, irrational assumptions. WHAT IS LIGHT?! Whose light? From what sourse? Please do not mention electronagnetics - the same applies to them. - Alexander Abian From rone at ennui.org Sat Jul 6 11:43:21 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (figmentality) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 11:43:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vilmos; Serioli phonetics Message-ID: <20020706184321.E62EF26E2D@boredom.ennui.org> Does anyone else visualize Vilmos as Kelley Jones' Thor from The Sandman's "Season of Mists"? Steven, how exactly should the Serioli '!' be vocalized? rone -- Constancy of the speed of light is a conclusion, yes it is a conclusion based on nonconvincing, irrational assumptions. WHAT IS LIGHT?! Whose light? From what sourse? Please do not mention electronagnetics - the same applies to them. - Alexander Abian From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Jul 6 13:15:08 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 06 Jul 2002 15:15:08 -0500 Subject: where is the readalong at? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Lowki Liesmith" writes: > i see you all talking about it on the mailing list and no one told me > where it is or i just deleted all of my messages one day without > reading any of them. so can any one please tell me where and when, is > it on a wab pageor what? Another near-by mailing list; readalong at dragaera.info. Check out the web site given at the bottom of my sig, below, for more information about the three mailing lists, and web archives of past messages, and such. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From zizban at adelphia.net Sat Jul 6 13:17:03 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 16:17:03 -0400 Subject: where is the readalong at? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5626F6F2-911D-11D6-BE14-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Saturday, July 6, 2002, at 04:15 PM, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > "Lowki Liesmith" writes: > >> i see you all talking about it on the mailing list and no one told me >> where it is or i just deleted all of my messages one day without >> reading any of them. so can any one please tell me where and when, is >> it on a wab pageor what? > > Another near-by mailing list; readalong at dragaera.info. Check out the > web site given at the bottom of my sig, below, for more information > about the three mailing lists, and web archives of past messages, and > such. > -- > David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test > John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net > Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ > New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info > We are on chapters 6, 7 and 8 of the Phoenix Guards. Not much discussion lately as it's summer and people are on vacations :-) > ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From Starshadw at aol.com Sat Jul 6 14:49:37 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 17:49:37 EDT Subject: Vilmos; Serioli phonetics Message-ID: In a message dated 7/6/2002 12:43:49 PM Mountain Daylight Time, rone at ennui.org writes: > Steven, how exactly should the Serioli '!' be vocalized? > I couldn't say for sure about Dragaera, but it's sometimes used to represent the click sound in certain African tongues here on good old Terra. From rone at ennui.org Sat Jul 6 23:57:37 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (figmentality) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 23:57:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: extra copy of _Athyra_? Message-ID: <20020707065737.4BD9326E27@boredom.ennui.org> I've looked online for a used copy of _Athyra_, but the cheapest one i've found is $20. Anyone out there have an extra copy they want to sell me? Or, in its stead, does anyone know if Tor will republish it in the near future? rone -- Constancy of the speed of light is a conclusion, yes it is a conclusion based on nonconvincing, irrational assumptions. WHAT IS LIGHT?! Whose light? From what sourse? Please do not mention electronagnetics - the same applies to them. - Alexander Abian From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Sun Jul 7 07:22:53 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 10:22:53 -0400 Subject: extra copy of _Athyra_? References: <20020707065737.4BD9326E27@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <3D284EBD.DE556099@earthlink.net> figmentality wrote: > > I've looked online for a used copy of _Athyra_, but the cheapest one > i've found is $20. Anyone out there have an extra copy they want to > sell me? Or, in its stead, does anyone know if Tor will republish it > in the near future? Well, if you don't object to omnibus (omnibuses? omnibi?) editions, I think Ace will be reprinting Athyra and Orca together in an omnibus, the way they did for Book of Jhereg and Book of Taltos. Otherwise, you'll have to either keep looking online or in used bookstores. Believe it or not, I've actually occasionally seen new copies of Athyra in bookstores in Florida, when I've been down there working or visiting family. I bought my copy new when I lived in Miami, for $5.99 (cover price). Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From rick at 404.978.org Sun Jul 7 07:20:34 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 10:20:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: extra copy of _Athyra_? In-Reply-To: <20020707065737.4BD9326E27@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20020707065737.4BD9326E27@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <4754.192.168.1.1.1026051634.squirrel@404.978.org> figmentality said: > I've looked online for a used copy of _Athyra_, but the cheapest one > i've found is $20. Anyone out there have an extra copy they want to > sell me? Or, in its stead, does anyone know if Tor will republish it in > the near future? > > rone I'm looking for the same thing. I have a "book hunter" looking for a copy for me, but I don't know that she'll find it for any cheaper at any of her usual used bookstores. Perhaps Athyra, Orca, and Dragon will be reprinted in the next "big book"? -Rick From randomhonky at hotmail.com Sun Jul 7 07:30:14 2002 From: randomhonky at hotmail.com (T J) Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 10:30:14 -0400 Subject: extra copy of _Athyra_? Message-ID: You mgiht not believe this, but about two weeks ago i snagged a first edition Athyra at a local book store called Half Price Books. only paid 2.28 and it was just when i was getting ready to bhreak down and buy one for 20$ TJS _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Sun Jul 7 15:40:15 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 17:40:15 -0500 Subject: extra copy of _Athyra_? References: Message-ID: T J wrote: > You mgiht not believe this, but about two weeks ago i snagged a first > edition Athyra at a local book store called Half Price Books. only > paid 2.28 and it was just when i was getting ready to bhreak down and > buy one for 20$ > > TJS > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com Don't forget there is ALWAYS someone selling something for less than it's market worth, it's a matter finding that someone. From yhcrana13 at hotmail.com Sun Jul 7 16:24:11 2002 From: yhcrana13 at hotmail.com (A. Nonymous) Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 18:24:11 -0500 Subject: extra copy of _Athyra_? Message-ID: figmentality said: > I've looked online for a used copy of _Athyra_, but the cheapest one > i've found is $20. Anyone out there have an extra copy they want to > sell me? Or, in its stead, does anyone know if Tor will republish it in > the near future? > > rone I found 2nd copies of Athyra, Orca, and Phoenix for the cover prices a little less than a year ago. It's an option that's easy to overlook in the internet world today, but I just went down to my locally owned bookstore and said : "Hi, I was wondering if you could order such-and-such for me?" It took them about a week, but they got here. Of course, this was the same bookstore that, a full month before it's release, I "Pre-ordered" Issola at and they called me 2 hours later and said they had it in. I ordered it, went down, picked it up and finished reading it within 6 hours. Thank-you Town Crier. josh collins The Guide is definitive. Reality is frequently inaccurate. (Douglas Adams - The Restaurant at the End of the Universe) yhcrana13 at hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From tyan at twcny.rr.com Mon Jul 8 14:46:08 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 17:46:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Kragar Message-ID: <200207082146.g68Lk8M2001757@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Do we have any idea how old Kragar is? (Anyone want to list everything we know about him?) - tky From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Jul 8 15:42:57 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 15:42:57 -0700 Subject: Tidnits for Steve (when he gets back) In-Reply-To: <14d.1055d025.2a5784c5@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020708154059.02f10040@pop3.lvcm.com> At 07:24 PM 7/5/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >June 8th: I should introduce you to my father. He came very close to being a >professional gambler once upon a time, and he still loves to play poker >whenever he can. I'd love to meet him. But if he plays well, I don't want him at my table. :-) >June 14th - what makes you think ALL of your fans aren't nut cases?? We just >blend better than Gaiman's nut cases. >;) I have never had any reason to worry about being stalked. I haven't yet run into any fan of mine who are nut cases. Many of them are nuts; that is an entirely different thing. :-) >June 28th: Better be careful - you'll soon be in my territory (or at least, >familiar territory). I have an MA in Medieval History (with a smidgen of >Renaissance thrown in because they made me and because the uni I went to had >no Ancient History tract to do instead). Naw. I have no interesting Medieval History. Armour is Not Cool. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Jul 8 15:51:52 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 15:51:52 -0700 Subject: Vilmos; Serioli phonetics In-Reply-To: <20020706184321.E62EF26E2D@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020708155132.00aadc00@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:43 AM 7/6/2002 -0700, figmentality wrote: >Steven, how exactly should the Serioli '!' be vocalized? It's a click. From Starshadw at aol.com Mon Jul 8 16:09:37 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 19:09:37 EDT Subject: Tidnits for Steve (when he gets back) Message-ID: <3f.e086828.2a5b75b1@aol.com> In a message dated 7/8/2002 4:43:18 PM Mountain Daylight Time, skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > >June 8th: I should introduce you to my father. He came very close to being > a > >professional gambler once upon a time, and he still loves to play poker > >whenever he can. > > I'd love to meet him. But if he plays well, I don't want him at my table. > :-) You almost made me spit water out of my mouth and onto my computer screen with that one. >:) > > > >June 14th - what makes you think ALL of your fans aren't nut cases?? We > just > >blend better than Gaiman's nut cases. >;) > > I have never had any reason to worry about being stalked. I haven't yet > run into any fan of mine who are nut cases. Many of them are nuts; that is > > an entirely different thing. :-) > Excellent point! > > >June 28th: Better be careful - you'll soon be in my territory (or at > least, > >familiar territory). I have an MA in Medieval History (with a smidgen of > >Renaissance thrown in because they made me and because the uni I went to > had > >no Ancient History tract to do instead). > > Naw. I have no interesting Medieval History. Armour is Not Cool. > > Heh.......I get it. Too true, both ways. I prefer the days before they went banging about like tin cans, myself. They never talk about how many knights were fainting because of heat prostration.......I wonder...... From zizban at adelphia.net Mon Jul 8 16:51:49 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 19:51:49 -0400 Subject: Tidnits for Steve (when he gets back) In-Reply-To: <3f.e086828.2a5b75b1@aol.com> Message-ID: > >> >>> June 28th: Better be careful - you'll soon be in my territory (or at >> least, >>> familiar territory). I have an MA in Medieval History (with a >>> smidgen of >>> Renaissance thrown in because they made me and because the uni I went >>> to >> had >>> no Ancient History tract to do instead). >> >> Naw. I have no interesting Medieval History. Armour is Not Cool. >> >> > > Heh.......I get it. Too true, both ways. I prefer the days before > they went > banging about like tin cans, myself. They never talk about how many > knights > were fainting because of heat prostration.......I wonder...... > I recently went to England as part of a travel course (right up Starshadow's alley; saw the Globe, Canterbury, York) and in the Tower of the London they had examples of armor used in England through the ages and writing about people in armor is on thing, seeing it in person gave me new appreciation for the stuff. ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From Starshadw at aol.com Mon Jul 8 17:05:44 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:05:44 EDT Subject: Tidnits for Steve (when he gets back) Message-ID: <3e.20d084aa.2a5b82d8@aol.com> In a message dated 7/8/2002 5:59:25 PM Mountain Daylight Time, zizban at adelphia.net writes: > Tower of > the London they had examples of armor used in England through the ages > and writing about people in armor is on thing, seeing it in person gave > me new appreciation for the stuff. My time in the Tower was one of the best parts (Tintagel was the absolute best) about my trip to the UK back in 1994. Of course, that might have something to do with the fact that one of my areas of specialty was medeival warfare. Stacy From Starshadw at aol.com Mon Jul 8 17:06:34 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:06:34 EDT Subject: Tidnits for Steve (when he gets back) Message-ID: <15c.1001313a.2a5b830a@aol.com> -sighs- And please ignore the hideous typo in that last message. -sighs again- Sometimes I hit "Send" too fast...... Stacy From zizban at adelphia.net Mon Jul 8 18:46:51 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 21:46:51 -0400 Subject: Tidnits for Steve (when he gets back) In-Reply-To: <15c.1001313a.2a5b830a@aol.com> Message-ID: The Tower was certainly the highlight of my trip (we didn't go very far west). I loved York, as well. Clifford's Tower was fun, as was walking the wall around the town. ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Jul 9 12:02:42 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 15:02:42 -0400 Subject: Kragar Message-ID: <3969F463.36B96A11.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Mon, 8 Jul 2002 4:46:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) writes: > Do we have any idea how old Kragar is? ?(Anyone want to > list everything we know about him?) I've been paying specific attention to ages when doing my Notes posts (in Readalong list), so once we get to the Vlad books I'll post what info we have. Until then, you can check the scene where Vlad first meets him (in a flashback) in either _Yendi_ or _Taltos_. --KG From lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com Tue Jul 9 12:06:59 2002 From: lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com (Lowki Liesmith) Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 15:06:59 -0400 Subject: extra copy of _Athyra_? Message-ID: Do you not think that $20 is a reasonable price for the continuation of what is one of the best fantacy series there are in the world. If not what you should do is break out the phone book and look up every bookstore in your city/town and ask around. that is how I got my copy of athyra for about $3 >From: "A. Nonymous" >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: extra copy of _Athyra_? >Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 18:24:11 -0500 > >figmentality said: > > I've looked online for a used copy of _Athyra_, but the cheapest one > > i've found is $20. Anyone out there have an extra copy they want to > > sell me? Or, in its stead, does anyone know if Tor will republish it in > > the near future? > > > > rone > >I found 2nd copies of Athyra, Orca, and Phoenix for the cover prices a >little less than a year ago. It's an option that's easy to overlook in the >internet world today, but I just went down to my locally owned bookstore >and said : "Hi, I was wondering if you could order such-and-such for me?" >It took them about a week, but they got here. > >Of course, this was the same bookstore that, a full month before it's >release, I "Pre-ordered" Issola at and they called me 2 hours later and >said they had it in. I ordered it, went down, picked it up and finished >reading it within 6 hours. Thank-you Town Crier. > >josh collins > > >The Guide is definitive. >Reality is frequently inaccurate. >(Douglas Adams - The Restaurant at the End of the Universe) >yhcrana13 at hotmail.com > > >_________________________________________________________________ >MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: >http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com Tue Jul 9 12:27:41 2002 From: lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com (Lowki Liesmith) Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 15:27:41 -0400 Subject: Kragar Message-ID: well I know that kragar is a former dragon, now a jhereg (but we all know that any way). He is just about the stealthiest man alive without doing it on purpose alot of the time(when cawti sat on his lap on accident was to die for). He doesn't like to lead people because of previous experiences in the house of the dragon. some people think he might be mario but i doubt that because they said thad that Kragar is looks fairly young still where as mario was born before the interegnum. But thats pretty much all I can remember off of the top of my head. >From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) >Reply-To: tyan at twcny.rr.com >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Kragar >Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 17:46:08 -0400 (EDT) > >Do we have any idea how old Kragar is? (Anyone want to list >everything we know about him?) > >- tky _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From tyan at twcny.rr.com Tue Jul 9 12:44:59 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: 09 Jul 2002 15:44:59 -0400 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: Gaertk@aol.com's message of "Tue, 09 Jul 2002 15:02:42 -0400" References: <3969F463.36B96A11.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: Gaertk at aol.com writes: > In a message dated Mon, 8 Jul 2002 4:46:08 PM Eastern > Standard Time, tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) writes: > > > Do we have any idea how old Kragar is? ?(Anyone want to > > list everything we know about him?) > > I've been paying specific attention to ages when doing my > Notes posts (in Readalong list), so once we get to the Vlad > books I'll post what info we have. Until then, you can > check the scene where Vlad first meets him (in a flashback) > in either _Yendi_ or _Taltos_. I flipped through both and didn't see anything about his age. The reason I ask is that I wonder if (his age makes it possible) we'll see him or the Demon in _Paths of the Dead_. - tky From rone at ennui.org Tue Jul 9 12:43:10 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (figmentality) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 12:43:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: extra copy of _Athyra_? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020709194310.E6DB126E26@boredom.ennui.org> Lowki Liesmith writes: Do you not think that $20 is a reasonable price for the continuation of what is one of the best fantacy series there are in the world. If i thought so, i would have paid my $20 and not started this thread in the first place. :) If not what you should do is break out the phone book and look up every bookstore in your city/town and ask around. that is how I got my copy of athyra for about $3 It might come to that. Gosh, that's a lot of work! rone -- Constancy of the speed of light is a conclusion, yes it is a conclusion based on nonconvincing, irrational assumptions. WHAT IS LIGHT?! Whose light? From what sourse? Please do not mention electronagnetics - the same applies to them. - Alexander Abian From MorgantiDagger at aol.com Tue Jul 9 13:45:06 2002 From: MorgantiDagger at aol.com (MorgantiDagger at aol.com) Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 16:45:06 -0400 Subject: Kragar Message-ID: <54371063.37365611.C7FF023B@aol.com> I seem to remember reading somewhere that Kragar was older than Morrolan. Hmm... +ponder+ I'll look it up. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Tue Jul 9 14:12:58 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 14:12:58 -0700 Subject: Kragar Message-ID: Thomas Yan wrote: > > > I flipped through both and didn't see anything about his age. The > reason I ask is that I wonder if (his age makes it possible) we'll see > him or the Demon in _Paths of the Dead_. I remember that the Demon was supposed to be extremely young, and that he methodically worked (and 'worked') his way up the Organization during the Interregnum, pulling together a broken House. I'm a thousand miles away from my books right now, though, so I can't check that. As for Kragar, I don't think he's so young that he missed the Interregnum. I don't know when young Dragons get their first command, but I'd assume that he got more than one chance to prove himself, before leaving (or being kicked out), so he can't be *that* young, in my opinion. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From den at monger.net Tue Jul 9 14:21:16 2002 From: den at monger.net (Dennis Higbee) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 14:21:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Jul 2002, Jose Marquez wrote: > > > Thomas Yan wrote: > > > > > > I flipped through both and didn't see anything about his age. The > > reason I ask is that I wonder if (his age makes it possible) we'll see > > him or the Demon in _Paths of the Dead_. > > I remember that the Demon was supposed to be extremely young, and that he > methodically worked (and 'worked') his way up the Organization during the > Interregnum, pulling together a broken House. I'm a thousand miles away from The Demon was, according to Vlad (and we know how trustworthy *he* is), under 800, which is young, I guess, though not as young as Morrolan. > my books right now, though, so I can't check that. As for Kragar, I don't > think he's so young that he missed the Interregnum. I don't know when young > Dragons get their first command, but I'd assume that he got more than one > chance to prove himself, before leaving (or being kicked out), so he can't be > *that* young, in my opinion. I've got to think Kragar is close to a thousand. I have no reason, other than that he had a failed career as a Dragon and, as you said, he probably took a while to get himself drummed out of the House. Add on to that a career in the Jhereg (which I suppose could have been as meteoric as Vlad's, though I find it unlikely), and you've got a pretty long time to have lived. Of course, this is assuming that anything said in the books about Kragar's past is true, but you've got to start somewhere. -Dennis From tyan at twcny.rr.com Tue Jul 9 15:09:43 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: 09 Jul 2002 18:09:43 -0400 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: Dennis Higbee's message of "Tue, 9 Jul 2002 14:21:16 -0700 (PDT)" References: Message-ID: Dennis Higbee writes: > The Demon was, according to Vlad (and we know how trustworthy *he* is), > under 800, which is young, I guess, though not as young as Morrolan. No, that was according to Kragar (ch1 of Jhereg), whom I believe is generally trustworthy except for his Dragon connections and background. - tky From den at monger.net Tue Jul 9 15:51:37 2002 From: den at monger.net (Dennis Higbee) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:51:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 9 Jul 2002, Thomas Yan wrote: > Dennis Higbee writes: > > > The Demon was, according to Vlad (and we know how trustworthy *he* is), > > under 800, which is young, I guess, though not as young as Morrolan. > > No, that was according to Kragar (ch1 of Jhereg), whom I believe is generally > trustworthy except for his Dragon connections and background. Well, I was more referring to the fact that everything in Jhereg is from Vlad. We get Kragar's info secondhand from Vlad. -Dennis From cmt17 at cable-lynx.net Tue Jul 9 17:02:07 2002 From: cmt17 at cable-lynx.net (Craig) Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 18:02:07 -0600 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020709175247.00cab048@pop.cable-lynx.net> >He doesn't like to lead people because of previous experiences in the >house of the dragon. some people think he might be mario but i doubt that >because they said thad that Kragar is looks fairly young still where as >mario was born before the interegnum. But thats pretty much all I can >remember off of the top of my head. From what I can recall offhand he is described by Vlad as being perfectly average in every way. I can't quote a source, but I also seem to recall his height being 7'0" (which I've been assuming is average for the dragaerans). I'm also guessing that he's not a young dragon since young ones are described as being "exciteable", and he seems much more mellow compared to the young dragons we do know, like Morrolan and Aliera. Other than that, he'd probably be middle aged to fit in with the rest of the average bit, 700-1300? The looking young part could be attributed to the fact that dragaerans don't go for wrinkles until they're quite advanced. Those are just my guesses and misrememberings. He'd be the perfect Man In Black (Men In Black And Silver?), indistinguishable from a thousand other people, able to blend in, etc. :) Craig From Alan.Halsted at mailus.com.au Tue Jul 9 21:19:51 2002 From: Alan.Halsted at mailus.com.au (Alan Halsted) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:19:51 +1000 Subject: OT: Medieval armour movies Message-ID: Hi All New to the list, huge fan of the Vlad series, and am impressed that SB takes the time to talk to his fans. I don't have any questions about the series, but will in good time. I stated the series 8 years ago and am about to restart them again just for fun. Following a thread about Medieval armour, I have been trying to compile a list of worthwhile flicks. So far, my meagre list is thus: Excalibur Joan of Arc (the fighting bits) Ladyhawke Monty Python & the Holy Grail (there are others, but cannot think of them in my bleary convalescent state) 'Timeline' is being made now. Any word on whether it will be worthwhile? The book was an interesting idea. Please feel free to add any worthy movies, even if they are predominantly Sword & Sorcery types Cheers, Alan Halsted > _______________________________________________________________ > ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please delete the e-mail & notify the system manager. We reserve the right to scan all e-mail traffic for restricted content and to monitor all e-mail traffic in general. The views and opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender and do not necessarily reflect the views of the organisation by whom they are employed, except where the sender expressly and with authority states them to be so. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been checked for the presence of computer viruses and script. We believe but do not warrant that this e-mail is free from viruses. Responsibility for virus checking rests entirely with the recipient. 5 at 356 ********************************************************************** From MorgantiDagger at aol.com Tue Jul 9 21:43:55 2002 From: MorgantiDagger at aol.com (MorgantiDagger at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 00:43:55 -0400 Subject: newbie here Message-ID: <77FE8F85.4E2E76C2.C7FF023B@aol.com> Hello. I am also a newbie here and since I have posted a couple of times already, I thought I should introduce myself. My name is Ness and I have been into the Taltos series for 6 years. I don't have any questions about the series either, right now, but things are so hectic around where I am that I'm not too surprised. I'm sure I'll think of some before long though. --Ness --- There are always choices. That is the pattern beneath all things. Universes appear and disappear with each choice- and words are destroyed with every breath. From FelixEisen at aol.com Tue Jul 9 22:38:08 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 01:38:08 EDT Subject: Armor (Was: Tidnits for Steve) Message-ID: <43.e1450f2.2a5d2240@aol.com> Starshadow writes: > Heh.......I get it. Too true, both ways. I prefer the days before they went > banging about like tin cans, myself. They never talk about how many knights > were fainting because of heat prostration.......I wonder...... Wonder no more -- or at least, wonder less. Instead, find out where your nearest major SCA event/war is going to happen, and go watch. At Pennsic, when there are somewhere around 4-500 men on the field -- this is just an estimate, btw, as I've never paid any attention to the actual numbers that participate in the field battle -- they break the action very, very frequently -- as in, every couple of minutes, at the very longest. At that point, the volunteers go to work, bringing water bottles to the fighters. Anyone who's been recently 'killed' stands and clears off, too. Really rather impressive, though it is generally a minute's worth of fighting followed by five minutes worth of watering. ;) There's almost always someone who suffers from heatstroke, though. Knightmarshall Felix Surnamed Eisen, or "Iron Felix" Hand of Morr, The Order of Bones From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Jul 10 01:14:37 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 03:14:37 -0500 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020709175247.00cab048@pop.cable-lynx.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020709175247.00cab048@pop.cable-lynx.net> Message-ID: <20020710081437.GO1523@infodancer.org> On Tue, Jul 09, 2002 at 06:02:07PM -0600, Craig wrote: > He'd be the perfect Man In Black (Men In Black And Silver?), > indistinguishable from a thousand other people, able to blend in, etc. :) Which leads me to my current pet theory... Kragar is Mario. No spoiler warnings, because it's not a known fact... yet. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From to_nige at mail.com Wed Jul 10 01:46:54 2002 From: to_nige at mail.com (Nigel Leslie) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 18:46:54 +1000 Subject: Kragar References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020709175247.00cab048@pop.cable-lynx.net> <20020710081437.GO1523@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <000901c227ee$592609c0$380ea8c0@local.secureinteractive.com> I'm really not too sure about that. When we met Mario in 500 Years After, he didn't seem have any kind of 'super blending' power. Just a lot of preparation, luck and youthful brashness.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Hunter" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 6:14 PM Subject: Re: Kragar > On Tue, Jul 09, 2002 at 06:02:07PM -0600, Craig wrote: > > He'd be the perfect Man In Black (Men In Black And Silver?), > > indistinguishable from a thousand other people, able to blend in, etc. :) > > Which leads me to my current pet theory... Kragar is Mario. > > No spoiler warnings, because it's not a known fact... yet. > > -- > Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) > From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Jul 10 02:00:44 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 04:00:44 -0500 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: <000901c227ee$592609c0$380ea8c0@local.secureinteractive.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020709175247.00cab048@pop.cable-lynx.net> <20020710081437.GO1523@infodancer.org> <000901c227ee$592609c0$380ea8c0@local.secureinteractive.com> Message-ID: <20020710090044.GQ1523@infodancer.org> On Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 06:46:54PM +1000, Nigel Leslie wrote: > I'm really not too sure about that. When we met Mario in 500 Years After, he > didn't seem have any kind of 'super blending' power. Just a lot of > preparation, luck and youthful brashness.... In Jhereg and Yendi, Vlad says a lot about how the art of the assassin includes blending into crowds and moving through them unseen. It's a skill he learned from Kiera, and then mastered on his own. You don't think a few hundred years of careful preperation and effort on developing that skill would pay off with Kragar's oh-so-casual nobody-notices-me? I'm about to reread 500YA, so I will be looking for evidence. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From andrew at networkharmoni.com.au Wed Jul 10 02:13:10 2002 From: andrew at networkharmoni.com.au (Andrew Bailey) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 17:13:10 +0800 Subject: Kragar References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020709175247.00cab048@pop.cable-lynx.net> <20020710081437.GO1523@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <3D2BFAA6.8040502@networkharmoni.com.au> Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Tue, Jul 09, 2002 at 06:02:07PM -0600, Craig wrote: > >>He'd be the perfect Man In Black (Men In Black And Silver?), >>indistinguishable from a thousand other people, able to blend in, etc. :) > > > Which leads me to my current pet theory... Kragar is Mario. > > No spoiler warnings, because it's not a known fact... yet. Umm, maybe not http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~phoenix/brust/mario.html Andrew. From divyasatyam at satyam.net.in Wed Jul 10 02:10:29 2002 From: divyasatyam at satyam.net.in (Divya) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:40:29 +0530 Subject: Kragar References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020709175247.00cab048@pop.cable-lynx.net> <20020710081437.GO1523@infodancer.org> <000901c227ee$592609c0$380ea8c0@local.secureinteractive.com> Message-ID: <015801c227f1$a58120e0$7e7cd2d2@satyam.net.in> Matthew Hunter" wrote: >Which leads me to my current pet theory... Kragar is Mario. Nigel Leslie responded: > I'm really not too sure about that. When we met Mario in 500 Years After, he > didn't seem have any kind of 'super blending' power. Just a lot of > preparation, luck and youthful brashness.... I agree. He was very young and relatively naive/inexperienced during _Five Hundred Years After_, and was already a Jhereg. It's unlikely he'd already been kicked out of the House of the Dragon at that point. And its even more unlikely that he somehow was admitted later, during or just after the interregnum, and then kicked out. A further point against their being the same person: Aliera liked Mario, and she has shown she despises Kragar. cheers, Divya ---------- proaireisqai te dei adunata eikota mallon h dunata apiqama. (A likely impossibility is always preferable to an unconvincing possibility.) -- Aristotle From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Jul 10 02:12:09 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 04:12:09 -0500 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: <3D2BFAA6.8040502@networkharmoni.com.au> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020709175247.00cab048@pop.cable-lynx.net> <20020710081437.GO1523@infodancer.org> <3D2BFAA6.8040502@networkharmoni.com.au> Message-ID: <20020710091209.GR1523@infodancer.org> On Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 05:13:10PM +0800, Andrew Bailey wrote: > http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~phoenix/brust/mario.html He's just the author, what does he know? Besides, that's hearsay. Inadmissable in court. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From adina at panix.com Wed Jul 10 06:44:43 2002 From: adina at panix.com (Adina Adler) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:44:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Armor (Was: Tidnits for Steve) In-Reply-To: <43.e1450f2.2a5d2240@aol.com> (FelixEisen@aol.com) References: <43.e1450f2.2a5d2240@aol.com> Message-ID: <200207101344.g6ADihO13033@panix1.panix.com> Felix wrote: > >Starshadow writes: >> Heh.......I get it. Too true, both ways. I prefer the days before they >went >> banging about like tin cans, myself. They never talk about how many >knights >> were fainting because of heat prostration.......I wonder...... > >Wonder no more -- or at least, wonder less. Instead, find out where your >nearest major SCA event/war is going to happen, and go watch. At Pennsic, >when there are somewhere around 4-500 men on the field -- this is just an >estimate, btw, as I've never paid any attention to the actual numbers that >participate in the field battle -- they break the action very, very >frequently -- as in, every couple of minutes, at the very longest. At that >point, the volunteers go to work, bringing water bottles to the fighters. >Anyone who's been recently 'killed' stands and clears off, too. Wait, was Starshadow talking about SCA combats or real historical ones? I thought she was talking about real historical combats, in which there were no volunteers to bring water bottles to the fighters. -- Adina From lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com Wed Jul 10 06:55:11 2002 From: lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com (Lowki Liesmith) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:55:11 -0400 Subject: mario and aliera= devera? Message-ID: >from the romance in 500 years after, do you think it possible that mario can be the father of the un-born devera? I heard that it might be Kieron the conqueror, but wasn't aliera his sister in a former life? hmmmm.... that would be a pretty neat twist. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From Starshadw at aol.com Wed Jul 10 07:04:29 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:04:29 -0400 Subject: Armor (Was: Tidnits for Steve) Message-ID: <404B8DE2.673A525B.0296E7C9@aol.com> In a message dated Wed, 10 Jul 2002 8:44:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, adina at panix.com writes: > Wait, was Starshadow talking about SCA combats or real historical > ones? I thought she was talking about real historical combats, in > which there were no volunteers to bring water bottles to > the fighters. Yep, I was talking about "the real thing." I've bene to SCA tournaments and wars. Nice, but really not all that realistic as far as -certain- aspects go. >:) Which is most fervently NOT to say anything against the SCA because I've always wished I had the time to join and participate. I've just always had other things to do. :( Stacy From lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com Wed Jul 10 07:06:18 2002 From: lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com (Lowki Liesmith) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:06:18 -0400 Subject: Kragar Message-ID: It just may be possible that mario could be kragar. in 500 years after, mario was barley 100 years old as it described him, do you not think it possible that he entered the house of the dragon afterwords. I do believe that it is, if you defeat 17 warriors of the house of the dragon you can get in. Isn't that what that one guy did in Jhereg ( I can't remember his name off of the top of my head). and I'm sure that durring the Interregnum, after adron's disaster, the house would be hurting and most likely that atleast 3 or 4 of those warriors would have died in Adron's disaster. so it would not have been as tough. after all it is mario. >From: Matthew Hunter >Reply-To: matthew at infodancer.org >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: Kragar >Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 04:12:09 -0500 > >On Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 05:13:10PM +0800, Andrew Bailey > wrote: > > http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~phoenix/brust/mario.html > >He's just the author, what does he know? > >Besides, that's hearsay. Inadmissable in court. > >-- >Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From shannon_bates at yahoo.com Wed Jul 10 07:20:19 2002 From: shannon_bates at yahoo.com (Shannon Bates) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 07:20:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: extra copy of _Athyra_? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020710142019.35112.qmail@web12503.mail.yahoo.com> Yeah - I dig through used books stores - they're wonderful! Check all of them in your area. I have multiple copies of most, just in case..... --- T J wrote: > You mgiht not believe this, but about two weeks ago i snagged a first > edition Athyra at a local book store called Half Price Books. only paid 2.28 > and it was just when i was getting ready to bhreak down and buy one for 20$ > > TJS > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Jul 10 07:51:31 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 10 Jul 2002 09:51:31 -0500 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: <015801c227f1$a58120e0$7e7cd2d2@satyam.net.in> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020709175247.00cab048@pop.cable-lynx.net> <20020710081437.GO1523@infodancer.org> <000901c227ee$592609c0$380ea8c0@local.secureinteractive.com> <015801c227f1$a58120e0$7e7cd2d2@satyam.net.in> Message-ID: "Divya" writes: > I agree. He was very young and relatively naive/inexperienced during _Five > Hundred Years After_, and was already a Jhereg. It's unlikely he'd already > been kicked out of the House of the Dragon at that point. And its even more > unlikely that he somehow was admitted later, during or just after the > interregnum, and then kicked out. A further point against their being the > same person: Aliera liked Mario, and she has shown she despises Kragar. I don't like the "Kragar is Mario" theory, *but* I think it's quite likely that Aliera's attitude would have changed at the same time and for the same reason that Kragar was kicked out of the House of the Dragon. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From rone at ennui.org Wed Jul 10 08:24:33 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (figmentality) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:24:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: <20020710081437.GO1523@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20020710152433.5B02726E25@boredom.ennui.org> Matthew Hunter writes: Which leads me to my current pet theory... Kragar is Mario. Steven has explicitly said that, after the _Orca_ surprise, nobody is nobody else (that is, no existing character is secretly another character). rone -- Constancy of the speed of light is a conclusion, yes it is a conclusion based on nonconvincing, irrational assumptions. WHAT IS LIGHT?! Whose light? From what sourse? Please do not mention electronagnetics - the same applies to them. - Alexander Abian From rsuitor at cjwrfs.net Wed Jul 10 08:26:52 2002 From: rsuitor at cjwrfs.net (Richard Suitor) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:26:52 -0400 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: <015801c227f1$a58120e0$7e7cd2d2@satyam.net.in> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020709175247.00cab048@pop.cable-lynx.net> <20020710081437.GO1523@infodancer.org> <000901c227ee$592609c0$380ea8c0@local.secureinteractive.com> <015801c227f1$a58120e0$7e7cd2d2@satyam.net.in> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:40:29 +0530, "Divya" wrote: >A further point against their being the >same person: Aliera liked Mario, and she has shown she despises Kragar. I really don't want to jump on the Mario=Kragar bandwagon, but Adron's disaster wasn't really Adron's disaster - it was Adron, Aliera and Mario's disaster. I could imagine Aliera's attitude toward Mario changing after she was retrieved. Also, Mario, who/wherever he is, has had several hundred years to find a new girlfriend. So Aliera's attitude is not a strong argument against and is possibly an argument for. And I'm not sure that Paarfi's colleague is that much more reliable a source than Paarfi is. How sure are we that the 500YA Mario was really Mario and not some other Jhereg of the same name? Richard :<) From stvitus at flash.net Wed Jul 10 08:41:46 2002 From: stvitus at flash.net (nikki m. pill) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:41:46 -0500 Subject: mario and aliera= devera? References: Message-ID: <002a01c22828$51f1d000$0201a8c0@kelly> Lowki suggested: > > from the romance in 500 years after, do you think it possible that mario can > be the father of the un-born devera? I heard that it might be Kieron the > conqueror, but wasn't aliera his sister in a former life? hmmmm.... that > would be a pretty neat twist. > But alas, no... http://www.math.ttu.edu/~kesinger/brust/devera.html "Q2: Who is Devera's father? A2: What a good question. Nobody knows, although pretty much every male character other than Noish-pa has been suggested. A common suggestion was Mario Greymist (on the theory that Aliera had a fling with him in Five Hundred Years After), but Steven Brust says no. It _is_ somebody we've met, though, and he claims that it's possible to figure it out. It ought to be a Dragon (since crossbreeding is considered Bad), which should cut down on the candidates. Morrolan is 'Uncle 'Rollan', so it's not him. " From cmt17 at cable-lynx.net Wed Jul 10 08:43:07 2002 From: cmt17 at cable-lynx.net (Craig) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:43:07 -0600 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: References: <015801c227f1$a58120e0$7e7cd2d2@satyam.net.in> <4.3.2.7.2.20020709175247.00cab048@pop.cable-lynx.net> <20020710081437.GO1523@infodancer.org> <000901c227ee$592609c0$380ea8c0@local.secureinteractive.com> <015801c227f1$a58120e0$7e7cd2d2@satyam.net.in> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020710093927.00c7b350@pop.cable-lynx.net> >How sure are we that the 500YA Mario was really Mario and not >some other Jhereg of the same name? I'm just guessing because Mario is as famous among assassins as he is because he's the only one who has managed to kill the emperor...what other assassin would want to call himself that for fear of bringing the attention of the real one? Craig From Gaertk at aol.com Wed Jul 10 08:57:19 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:57:19 -0400 Subject: Kragar Message-ID: <6ABE6527.7123F8BC.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Tue, 9 Jul 2002 4:21:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, Dennis Higbee writes: > I've got to think Kragar is close to a thousand. ?I have > no reason, other than that he had a failed career as a > Dragon and, as you said, he probably took a while to get > himself drummed out of the House. ?Add on to that a career > in the Jhereg (which I suppose could have been as meteoric > as Vlad's, though I find it unlikely), and you've got a > pretty long time to have lived. Meteoric?? When Vlad first meets him, Kragar is an assistant goon (which sounds like an entry level position). All the power and authority he's gained so far was directly handed to him by Vlad. --KG From books at bofh.com Wed Jul 10 08:59:30 2002 From: books at bofh.com (books at bofh.com) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:59:30 -0700 (MST) Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:06:18 -0400" Message-ID: <01KJXA8U4SBG000A5G@chud.net> >It just may be possible that mario could be kragar. in 500 years after, >mario was barley 100 years old as it described him, do you not think it >possible that he entered the house of the dragon afterwords. I do believe >that it is, if you defeat 17 warriors of the house of the dragon you can get No, it wasn't Dragon, it was Dzur. To get into Dragon I believe you have to insult 17 different Dragons on 17 different virtually inconsequential matters of honor, and then defeat them in duels. That's my guess at least. [*snip*] From zizban at adelphia.net Wed Jul 10 09:05:44 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:05:44 -0400 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: <01KJXA8U4SBG000A5G@chud.net> Message-ID: On Wednesday, July 10, 2002, at 11:59 AM, books at bofh.com wrote: >> It just may be possible that mario could be kragar. in 500 years after, >> mario was barley 100 years old as it described him, do you not think it >> possible that he entered the house of the dragon afterwords. I do >> believe >> that it is, if you defeat 17 warriors of the house of the dragon you >> can get > > No, it wasn't Dragon, it was Dzur. To get into Dragon I believe you > have to insult 17 different Dragons on 17 different virtually > inconsequential > matters of honor, and then defeat them in duels. That's my guess at > least. > > [*snip*] > Wow! No wonder Dragons are so anal :-) > ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From books at bofh.com Wed Jul 10 09:02:59 2002 From: books at bofh.com (books at bofh.com) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:02:59 -0700 (MST) Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:24:33 -0700 (PDT)" <20020710152433.5B02726E25@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20020710081437.GO1523@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <01KJXAEUXV38000A5G@chud.net> >Matthew Hunter writes: > Which leads me to my current pet theory... Kragar is Mario. >Steven has explicitly said that, after the _Orca_ surprise, nobody is >nobody else (that is, no existing character is secretly another >character). It is my recollection that Steve has also said the following: o We have met Mario in the Vlad books. o Kragar is not Mario o The Demon is not Mario (in spite of this statement, it's my favorite theory) I would interpret the 'no one is no one else' statement to mean that there are not two major characters who are one individual, not that we've never met a major character in disguise. -Jot From zizban at adelphia.net Wed Jul 10 09:12:01 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:12:01 -0400 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: <01KJXAEUXV38000A5G@chud.net> Message-ID: On Wednesday, July 10, 2002, at 12:02 PM, books at bofh.com wrote: >> Matthew Hunter writes: >> Which leads me to my current pet theory... Kragar is Mario. > >> Steven has explicitly said that, after the _Orca_ surprise, nobody is >> nobody else (that is, no existing character is secretly another >> character). > > It is my recollection that Steve has also said the following: > o We have met Mario in the Vlad books. > o Kragar is not Mario > o The Demon is not Mario (in spite of this statement, it's my favorite > theory) > > I would interpret the 'no one is no one else' statement to mean that > there are not two major characters who are one individual, not that > we've never met a major character in disguise. > > -Jot > I agree. I'm sure Mario is in disguise in the books. > ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From alan at 5sc.net Wed Jul 10 09:24:38 2002 From: alan at 5sc.net (Alan) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:24:38 -0400 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: <01KJXAEUXV38000A5G@chud.net> Message-ID: > >Matthew Hunter writes: > > Which leads me to my current pet theory... Kragar is Mario. Doubt it. > > >Steven has explicitly said that, after the _Orca_ surprise, nobody is > >nobody else (that is, no existing character is secretly another > >character). Good enough as it stands, but what about mis-direction ? ( who, Steve ??? Nah! ) > > It is my recollection that Steve has also said the following: > o We have met Mario in the Vlad books. > o Kragar is not Mario > o The Demon is not Mario (in spite of this statement, it's my favorite > theory) In that case, perhaps Mario is the Demon. :) > > I would interpret the 'no one is no one else' statement to mean that > there are not two major characters who are one individual, not that > we've never met a major character in disguise. This does not rule out Sethra (my guess). > > -Jot Alan From anthony at netdocuments.com Wed Jul 10 09:15:04 2002 From: anthony at netdocuments.com (Anthony Tedjamulia) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:15:04 -0600 Subject: Kragar Message-ID: > I would interpret the 'no one is no one > else' statement to mean that > there are not two major characters who > are one individual, not that > we've never met a major character in disguise. Sethra/Kiera From anthony at netdocuments.com Wed Jul 10 09:15:43 2002 From: anthony at netdocuments.com (Anthony Tedjamulia) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:15:43 -0600 Subject: Kragar Message-ID: > I would interpret the 'no one is no one > else' statement to mean that > there are not two major characters who > are one individual, not that > we've never met a major character in disguise. Sethra/Kiera From lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com Wed Jul 10 09:22:24 2002 From: lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com (Lowki Liesmith) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:22:24 -0400 Subject: Kragar Message-ID: yes i think it is the dragon because Morralan raid that he was one of the people who he had to fight and morralan said that he lost. but it has been about 4 years since I read Jhereg so i think I'll read it for the hell of it today. >From: books at bofh.com >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: Kragar >Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:59:30 -0700 (MST) > >>It just may be possible that mario could be kragar. in 500 years after, >>mario was barley 100 years old as it described him, do you not think it >>possible that he entered the house of the dragon afterwords. I do believe >>that it is, if you defeat 17 warriors of the house of the dragon you can >>get > >No, it wasn't Dragon, it was Dzur. To get into Dragon I believe you >have to insult 17 different Dragons on 17 different virtually >inconsequential >matters of honor, and then defeat them in duels. That's my guess at least. > >[*snip*] _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From books at bofh.com Wed Jul 10 09:19:31 2002 From: books at bofh.com (books at bofh.com) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:19:31 -0700 (MST) Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:24:38 -0400" References: <01KJXAEUXV38000A5G@chud.net> Message-ID: <01KJXAXGN78S000A5G@chud.net> >> >> I would interpret the 'no one is no one else' statement to mean that >> there are not two major characters who are one individual, not that >> we've never met a major character in disguise. >This does not rule out Sethra (my guess). Well, if the narrator of FYA can be trusted somewhat, this can't be, as Sethra and Mario were in the throne room at the same time. Additionally, Aliera and Mario seemed to have had an intiminate encounter. I think Sethra is good at disguise, but not THAT good. -Jot From books at bofh.com Wed Jul 10 09:23:33 2002 From: books at bofh.com (books at bofh.com) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:23:33 -0700 (MST) Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:15:04 -0600" Message-ID: <01KJXB13VXJI000A5G@chud.net> >> I would interpret the 'no one is no one >> else' statement to mean that >> there are not two major characters who >> are one individual, not that >> we've never met a major character in disguise. >Sethra/Kiera You lost the context on the quote from earlier in the thread. It was to the effect of: 'After _Orca_, Steve said there was 'no one who is someone else'' So, the statement still stands as Sethra/Kiera happened in _Orca_ -Jot From alan at 5sc.net Wed Jul 10 09:42:01 2002 From: alan at 5sc.net (Alan) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:42:01 -0400 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: <01KJXAXGN78S000A5G@chud.net> Message-ID: > >> > >> I would interpret the 'no one is no one else' statement to mean that > >> there are not two major characters who are one individual, not that > >> we've never met a major character in disguise. > > >This does not rule out Sethra (my guess). > > Well, if the narrator of FYA can be trusted somewhat, this can't be, > as Sethra and Mario were in the throne room at the same time. If they are the same, then that would be a given. :) > > Additionally, Aliera and Mario seemed to have had an intiminate encounter. > I think Sethra is good at disguise, but not THAT good. > Operative phrase is "seemed to" but regardless, yes, I think that Sethra *is* that good. Alan From scs at di.org Wed Jul 10 09:24:47 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:24:47 -0400 Subject: Adron's Disaster -- 99% Adron Message-ID: <20020710162447.GA13085@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Richard Suitor wrote: > I really don't want to jump on the Mario=Kragar bandwagon, but Adron's > disaster wasn't really Adron's disaster - it was Adron, Aliera and Mario's > disaster. And don't forget the emperor. If he hadn't been such a putz, Adron would never have had to do it, nor would Mario be trying to kill him. Right. :-) Mario and Aliera are only part of the disaster in the sense that more than one thing went wrong at a time. But IMHO, it's Adron's disaster. He's the one who chose to use an incredibly powerful weapon that he couldn't fully control. Analogy is always suspect, but here's one I think works. Someone cranks a car up to 100MPH in a residential area, swerves to miss an unleashed dog while his cellphone rings, and hits a kid on a bike. It's his, the dogs owners, the callers, and the kids accident. Police, prosecutors, judges, juries, and bereaved parents have been notably unsympathetic to this argument. -- ``You gotta distinguish between telling a tale for amusement, as in "Well, there I was facing down the crowds at Riotcon...", and telling it for the record, as in "Well, you see, officer, it happened like this...". (Actually, that might not be the best example.)'' -- Chris Clayton, in private email From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Wed Jul 10 10:02:04 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:02:04 -0700 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: <01KJXAEUXV38000A5G@chud.net> References: <20020710081437.GO1523@infodancer.org> <01KJXAEUXV38000A5G@chud.net> Message-ID: <20020710170204.GB19244@ofb.net> What's with this list not setting reply-to properly? On Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 09:02:59AM -0700, books at bofh.com wrote: > It is my recollection that Steve has also said the following: > o We have met Mario in the Vlad books. I've never seen that. I've seen a hint or statement that when Aliera is really happy in _Jhereg_ Mario has just left, so we've almost seen him, but not a "we've met Mario" statement. -xx- Damien X-) From pereillo at optonline.net Wed Jul 10 10:24:17 2002 From: pereillo at optonline.net (Dr. Kathleen Pereillo) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:24:17 -0400 Subject: Adron's Disaster -- 99% Adron In-Reply-To: <20020710162447.GA13085@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <000401c22836$9f4d8d40$a97ba8c0@3ComC> >>Richard Suitor wrote: >> I really don't want to jump on the Mario=Kragar bandwagon, but Adron's >> disaster wasn't really Adron's disaster - it was Adron, Aliera and Mario's >> disaster. >Steve Simmons wrote: >And don't forget the emperor. If he hadn't been such a putz, Adron would >never have had to do it, nor would Mario be trying to kill him. >Mario and Aliera are only part of the disaster in the sense that more >than one thing went wrong at a time. But IMHO, it's Adron's disaster. >He's the one who chose to use an incredibly powerful weapon that he >couldn't fully control. <<>> I agree that it was *Adron's Disaster* but I think it was more than a little bit Aliera's *fault*. My view of it is this: 1) Mario would have been done with this [after the failed assassination attempt] once he realized he had been set up; BUT FOR Aliera's egging him on. 2) She *knew* what her father was doing [and the full implication of his Spell], had psionic contact with her father [at a time when it was uncommon]; and yet did not *warn* him that she and Mario were going ahead with a second assassination attempt. 3) She did not at least *inform* Sethra of the plot [Sethra might have been able to intervene sooner to stop the massive destruction]. Though I can understand why she wouldn't involve Sethra at the time. I understand that it is Aliera's nature to be quick-tempered, impulsive, etc.; however, she precipitated the course of the final events by her interference and lack of communication with the right people. K- From rsuitor at cjwrfs.net Wed Jul 10 10:56:15 2002 From: rsuitor at cjwrfs.net (Richard Suitor) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:56:15 -0400 Subject: Adron's Disaster -- 99% Adron In-Reply-To: <20020710162447.GA13085@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20020710162447.GA13085@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:24:47 -0400, Steve Simmons wrote: >Mario and Aliera are only part of the disaster in the sense that more >than one thing went wrong at a time. But IMHO, it's Adron's disaster. >He's the one who chose to use an incredibly powerful weapon that he >couldn't fully control. > >Analogy is always suspect, but here's one I think works. > >Someone cranks a car up to 100MPH in a residential area, swerves to >miss an unleashed dog while his cellphone rings, and hits a kid on a >bike. It's his, the dogs owners, the callers, and the kids accident. > >Police, prosecutors, judges, juries, and bereaved parents have been >notably unsympathetic to this argument. And so am I. But Aliera was Adron's daughter, protective of him, and trying to help him - but she wound up having the Emperor killed at exactly the wrong time. I could imagine that affecting *her* outlook, which was my point - I agree that it is still Adron's disaster to everyone else. To carry your analogy further, the car driver's daughter is out walking a vicious dog, sees Daddy's enemy and tells the dog to sic 'em, and that's what triggers the accident. She's going to have some internal conflicts to straighten out. Daddy still loses the court case. But I'm not pushing the overall argument, Mario=Kragar. It's an interesting concept to keep in one of the back files . . . Richard From cmt17 at cable-lynx.net Wed Jul 10 11:19:38 2002 From: cmt17 at cable-lynx.net (Craig) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:19:38 -0600 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020710121356.00c59278@pop.cable-lynx.net> >yes i think it is the dragon because Morralan raid that he was one of the >people who he had to fight and morralan said that he lost. but it has been >about 4 years since I read Jhereg so i think I'll read it for the hell of >it today. When you re-read you'll find that it was the Dzur, Duke Keleth (Jhereg, chapter 10), who Vlad was shaking down for information who admitted to being 14th in line to lose to Mellar. But a re-read is always fun too, I'll have to put off reading some of the new books to go over some of these again just so I can refresh what happened in which book. Craig From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Jul 10 11:21:41 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 10 Jul 2002 13:21:41 -0500 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: <20020710170204.GB19244@ofb.net> References: <20020710081437.GO1523@infodancer.org> <01KJXAEUXV38000A5G@chud.net> <20020710170204.GB19244@ofb.net> Message-ID: Damien Sullivan writes: > What's with this list not setting reply-to properly? It is set properly. "Properly" means different things to different people. See http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html . -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jul 10 11:25:15 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:25:15 -0700 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: <20020710170204.GB19244@ofb.net> References: <01KJXAEUXV38000A5G@chud.net> <20020710081437.GO1523@infodancer.org> <01KJXAEUXV38000A5G@chud.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020710112500.00ac7930@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:02 AM 7/10/2002 -0700, Damien Sullivan wrote: >What's with this list not setting reply-to properly? > >On Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 09:02:59AM -0700, books at bofh.com wrote: > > > It is my recollection that Steve has also said the following: > > o We have met Mario in the Vlad books. > >I've never seen that. I've seen a hint or statement that when Aliera is >really happy in _Jhereg_ Mario has just left, so we've almost seen him, but >not a "we've met Mario" statement. That is correct. From alan at 5sc.net Wed Jul 10 11:43:36 2002 From: alan at 5sc.net (Alan) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:43:36 -0400 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020710112500.00ac7930@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: > At 10:02 AM 7/10/2002 -0700, Damien Sullivan wrote: > >What's with this list not setting reply-to properly? > > > >On Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 09:02:59AM -0700, books at bofh.com wrote: > > > > > It is my recollection that Steve has also said the following: > > > o We have met Mario in the Vlad books. > > > >I've never seen that. I've seen a hint or statement that when Aliera is > >really happy in _Jhereg_ Mario has just left, so we've almost > seen him, but > >not a "we've met Mario" statement. > > That is correct. > All three ? From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jul 10 12:03:34 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:03:34 -0700 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020710112500.00ac7930@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020710120315.00aa90a0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 02:43 PM 7/10/2002 -0400, Alan wrote: > > > > It is my recollection that Steve has also said the following: > > > > o We have met Mario in the Vlad books. > > > > > >I've never seen that. I've seen a hint or statement that when Aliera is > > >really happy in _Jhereg_ Mario has just left, so we've almost > > seen him, but > > >not a "we've met Mario" statement. > > > > That is correct. > > >All three ? The portion I quoted. From alan at 5sc.net Wed Jul 10 12:38:11 2002 From: alan at 5sc.net (Alan) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:38:11 -0400 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020710120315.00aa90a0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: > At 02:43 PM 7/10/2002 -0400, Alan wrote: > > > > > > It is my recollection that Steve has also said the following: > > > > > o We have met Mario in the Vlad books. > > > > > > > >I've never seen that. I've seen a hint or statement that > when Aliera is > > > >really happy in _Jhereg_ Mario has just left, so we've almost > > > seen him, but > > > >not a "we've met Mario" statement. > > > > > > That is correct. > > > > >All three ? > > The portion I quoted. Sorry for the tersely phrased interrogative. Here is what I should have asked: Underneath one short sentence that was followed by a long sentence that took up three lines, and proposed two separate but related guesses was your reply. "That is correct," I took to possibly mean that the the entire sentence is correct. This would mean that Mario HAD just left Aliera. This is the clarification that I was looking for. Alan From jbearson at tampabay.rr.com Wed Jul 10 12:33:36 2002 From: jbearson at tampabay.rr.com (Jon Bearson) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:33:36 -0400 Subject: Kragar References: Message-ID: <005b01c22848$b00c07d0$9865fea9@SSUD273B> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan" To: "Dragaera" Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 3:38 PM Subject: RE: Kragar > > > At 02:43 PM 7/10/2002 -0400, Alan wrote: > > > > > > > > It is my recollection that Steve has also said the following: > > > > > > o We have met Mario in the Vlad books. > > > > > > > > > >I've never seen that. I've seen a hint or statement that > > when Aliera is > > > > >really happy in _Jhereg_ Mario has just left, so we've almost > > > > seen him, but > > > > >not a "we've met Mario" statement. > > > > > > > > That is correct. > > > > > > >All three ? > > > > The portion I quoted. > > Sorry for the tersely phrased interrogative. Here is what I should have > asked: > > Underneath one short sentence that was followed by a long sentence that took > up three lines, and proposed two separate but related guesses was your > reply. > "That is correct," I took to possibly mean that the the entire sentence is > correct. This would mean that Mario HAD just left Aliera. This is the > clarification > that I was looking for. > > Alan > I'm pretty sure he meant that the one section he quoted is the one that is correct. We have *almost* met Mario From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Jul 10 12:35:57 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:35:57 -0500 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: <005b01c22848$b00c07d0$9865fea9@SSUD273B> References: <005b01c22848$b00c07d0$9865fea9@SSUD273B> Message-ID: <20020710193557.GB9285@infodancer.org> On Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 03:33:36PM -0400, Jon Bearson wrote: > > > > > > > It is my recollection that Steve has also said the following: > > > > > > > o We have met Mario in the Vlad books. > > > The portion I quoted. > I'm pretty sure he meant that the one section he quoted is the one that is > correct. We have *almost* met Mario No. We HAVE met Mario. No almost involved. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From alan at 5sc.net Wed Jul 10 12:54:59 2002 From: alan at 5sc.net (Alan) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:54:59 -0400 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: <005b01c22848$b00c07d0$9865fea9@SSUD273B> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Jon Bearson [mailto:jbearson at tampabay.rr.com] > Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 15:34 > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Kragar > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alan" > To: "Dragaera" > Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 3:38 PM > Subject: RE: Kragar > > > > > > > At 02:43 PM 7/10/2002 -0400, Alan wrote: > > > > > > > > > > It is my recollection that Steve has also said the following: > > > > > > > o We have met Mario in the Vlad books. > > > > > > > > > > > >I've never seen that. I've seen a hint or statement that > > > when Aliera is > > > > > >really happy in _Jhereg_ Mario has just left, so we've almost > > > > > seen him, but > > > > > >not a "we've met Mario" statement. > > > > > > > > > > That is correct. > > > > > > > > >All three ? > > > > > > The portion I quoted. > > > > Sorry for the tersely phrased interrogative. Here is what I should have > > asked: > > > > Underneath one short sentence that was followed by a long sentence that > took > > up three lines, and proposed two separate but related guesses was your > > reply. > > "That is correct," I took to possibly mean that the the entire > sentence is > > correct. This would mean that Mario HAD just left Aliera. This is the > > clarification > > that I was looking for. > > > > Alan > > > > I'm pretty sure he meant that the one section he quoted is the one that is > correct. We have *almost* met Mario > It was quoted before he replied to it. From rone at ennui.org Wed Jul 10 13:31:04 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (figmentality) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:31:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020710203104.8487026E25@boredom.ennui.org> Richard Suitor writes: I really don't want to jump on the Mario=Kragar bandwagon, but Adron's disaster wasn't really Adron's disaster - it was Adron, Aliera and Mario's disaster. Perhaps, but the characters refer to it as "Adron's Disaster", so who are we to niggle details? I mean, hell, to us it's just fiction, but to them, it's history. rone -- Constancy of the speed of light is a conclusion, yes it is a conclusion based on nonconvincing, irrational assumptions. WHAT IS LIGHT?! Whose light? From what sourse? Please do not mention electronagnetics - the same applies to them. - Alexander Abian From tyan at twcny.rr.com Wed Jul 10 13:49:03 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: 10 Jul 2002 16:49:03 -0400 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: Matthew Hunter's message of "Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:35:57 -0500" References: <005b01c22848$b00c07d0$9865fea9@SSUD273B> <20020710193557.GB9285@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Matthew Hunter writes: > On Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 03:33:36PM -0400, Jon Bearson wrote: > > > > > > > > It is my recollection that Steve has also said the following: > > > > > > > > o We have met Mario in the Vlad books. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > I'm pretty sure he meant that the one section he quoted is the one that is > > correct. We have *almost* met Mario > > No. > > We HAVE met Mario. No almost involved. But not in the Vlad-proper books. Steve confirmed that in the Vlad books, we just missed seeing him. From rick at 404.978.org Wed Jul 10 13:56:31 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:56:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: <20020710170204.GB19244@ofb.net> References: <20020710081437.GO1523@infodancer.org> <01KJXAEUXV38000A5G@chud.net> <20020710170204.GB19244@ofb.net> Message-ID: <1690.192.168.1.1.1026334591.squirrel@404.978.org> Damien Sullivan said: > What's with this list not setting reply-to properly? Oh jeez. Not THIS argument again. -Rick From alan at 5sc.net Wed Jul 10 14:12:39 2002 From: alan at 5sc.net (Alan) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 17:12:39 -0400 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: <1690.192.168.1.1.1026334591.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Castello [mailto:rick at 404.978.org] > Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 16:57 > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Kragar > > > Damien Sullivan said: > > What's with this list not setting reply-to properly? > > Oh jeez. Not THIS argument again. > > -Rick > > He looks on in disbelief. Saving throw! ( modifiers: +2 for wisdom, -1 for sarcasm ) Roll d20 ..... fails! Yep. This argument again. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jul 10 15:10:21 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:10:21 -0700 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020710120315.00aa90a0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020710150735.00a8b300@pop3.lvcm.com> At 03:38 PM 7/10/2002 -0400, you wrote: >Sorry for the tersely phrased interrogative. Here is what I should have >asked: > >Underneath one short sentence that was followed by a long sentence that took >up three lines, and proposed two separate but related guesses was your >reply. >"That is correct," I took to possibly mean that the the entire sentence is >correct. This would mean that Mario HAD just left Aliera. This is the >clarification >that I was looking for. Okay, now I'm really confused. It is true that, in Jar-head, there is a scene where Aliera appears looking rather happy. In that scene, we have just missed seeing Mario. Does that answer your question? From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Jul 10 15:41:25 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 17:41:25 -0500 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020710150735.00a8b300@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020710120315.00aa90a0@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020710150735.00a8b300@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <20020710224125.GC9285@infodancer.org> On Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 03:10:21PM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: > At 03:38 PM 7/10/2002 -0400, you wrote: > It is true that, in Jar-head, there is a scene where Aliera appears looking > rather happy. In that scene, we have just missed seeing Mario. > Does that answer your question? Have we met Mario face-to-face in the Vlad books (even if disguised as someone else)? -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jul 10 15:53:53 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:53:53 -0700 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: <20020710224125.GC9285@infodancer.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020710150735.00a8b300@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020710120315.00aa90a0@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020710150735.00a8b300@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020710155339.025cd210@pop3.lvcm.com> At 05:41 PM 7/10/2002 -0500, Matthew Hunter wrote: >Have we met Mario face-to-face in the Vlad books (even if >disguised as someone else)? No. From Starshadw at aol.com Wed Jul 10 16:00:12 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 19:00:12 EDT Subject: Kragar Message-ID: <112.143733cd.2a5e167c@aol.com> In a message dated 7/10/2002 4:54:20 PM Mountain Daylight Time, skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > No. Oooooooo!! - claps hands together gleefully- Twenty Questions! I loooooove Twenty Questions! Stacy From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Wed Jul 10 16:56:24 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:56:24 -0700 Subject: Kragar Message-ID: Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 7/10/2002 4:54:20 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > > > No. > > Oooooooo!! - claps hands together gleefully- Twenty Questions! I loooooove > Twenty Questions! Is Mario bigger than a bread box? *grin* Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From rsuitor at cjwrfs.net Wed Jul 10 17:51:34 2002 From: rsuitor at cjwrfs.net (Richard Suitor) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:51:34 -0400 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020710150735.00a8b300@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020710120315.00aa90a0@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020710150735.00a8b300@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:10:21 -0700, Steven Brust wrote: >It is true that, in Jar-head, there is a scene where Aliera appears looking >rather happy. In that scene, we have just missed seeing Mario. So unless the activities were somewhat different than we suppose, apparently the two are still getting along quite well despite the traumatic nature of the interruption of their earlier relationship. Rats. How . . . mundane. :<) Richard From Gaertk at aol.com Wed Jul 10 18:25:32 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 21:25:32 -0400 Subject: Kragar Message-ID: <0C6BF63C.3E492976.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Wed, 10 Jul 2002 1:21:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, David Dyer-Bennet writes: > Damien Sullivan writes: > >> What's with this list not setting reply-to properly? > > It is set properly. ?"Properly" means different things to > different people. Okay, but it didn't say one word about the problem seen here: people hitting group-reply (like they're told to), and creating 2 (or even 3 or 4) copies of their message. Yes, it's not a major problem, and doesn't really outweigh the arguments given, but still.... Also, that site mentioned very briefly being asked to add another reply option. Is that a reference to a reply-list option? I'd love to see that become standard. Of course, I'd still need to first convince Aol to allow third party clients.... --KG From Gaertk at aol.com Wed Jul 10 18:29:32 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 21:29:32 -0400 Subject: Kragar Message-ID: <0B77F954.4B4E0AAE.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Wed, 10 Jul 2002 2:35:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, Matthew Hunter writes: [Crossthread: I just sent my reply to David about setting the reply-to field, and then I open this message, tell it to reply to all, and find the mailing list in the Copy-to field. Ugh.] >We HAVE met Mario. ?No almost involved. *If* you believe what Paarfi says. Ask yourself what sources he could possibly be using for those scenes. --KG From Gaertk at aol.com Wed Jul 10 18:31:17 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 21:31:17 -0400 Subject: Kragar Message-ID: <430D3AAE.49002D37.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Wed, 10 Jul 2002 5:10:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, Steven Brust writes: > Okay, now I'm really confused. > > It is true that, in Jar-head, there is a scene where > Aliera appears looking rather happy. ?In that scene, we > have just missed seeing Mario. > > Does that answer your question? Oh darn, I was hoping you'd say "One of the previous statements is correct." ;) --KG From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Jul 10 18:36:37 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:36:37 -0500 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: <0B77F954.4B4E0AAE.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <0B77F954.4B4E0AAE.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020711013637.GW1523@infodancer.org> On Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 09:29:32PM -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated Wed, 10 Jul 2002 2:35:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, Matthew Hunter writes: > [Crossthread: I just sent my reply to David about setting > the reply-to field, and then I open this message, tell it > to reply to all, and find the mailing list in the Copy-to > field. Ugh.] That was deliberate. Occasionally, people who are especially busy may not read all the threads, and may thus miss questions directed at them from a thread they have not been following. In these cases it is polite to CC the individual if a response is expected (hoped for). > >We HAVE met Mario. ?No almost involved. > *If* you believe what Paarfi says. Ask yourself what > sources he could possibly be using for those scenes. I was misinterperting an authorial pronouncement. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From andrew at networkharmoni.com.au Wed Jul 10 18:51:43 2002 From: andrew at networkharmoni.com.au (Andrew Bailey) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 09:51:43 +0800 Subject: Kragar References: <01KJXAEUXV38000A5G@chud.net> <01KJXAXGN78S000A5G@chud.net> Message-ID: <3D2CE4AF.4040500@networkharmoni.com.au> books at bofh.com wrote: >>>I would interpret the 'no one is no one else' statement to mean that >>>there are not two major characters who are one individual, not that >>>we've never met a major character in disguise. >> > >>This does not rule out Sethra (my guess). > > > Well, if the narrator of FYA can be trusted somewhat, this can't be, > as Sethra and Mario were in the throne room at the same time. > Firstly I very much doubt that Mario is Sethra, but for the sake of argument:) If Mario and Sethra were in the throne room at the same time and Sethra is Mario , It logically follows that MarioSethra can be in two different places at the same time. Now this is where I get vauge, but I seem to remember that being in two diffenent places at the same time is considered as one of the defining characteristics of being a God( cant remember where I read that , and it could be completely incorrect :(, anyone confirm? ). So it follows then that Sethra would be a God:) Andrew. From eshivak at netzero.net Wed Jul 10 20:26:29 2002 From: eshivak at netzero.net (Eric Shivak) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 23:26:29 -0400 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Defeating 17 warriors gets you into the house of Dzur... -----Original Message----- From: Lowki Liesmith [mailto:lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 10:06 AM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Kragar It just may be possible that mario could be kragar. in 500 years after, mario was barley 100 years old as it described him, do you not think it possible that he entered the house of the dragon afterwords. I do believe that it is, if you defeat 17 warriors of the house of the dragon you can get in. Isn't that what that one guy did in Jhereg ( I can't remember his name off of the top of my head). and I'm sure that durring the Interregnum, after adron's disaster, the house would be hurting and most likely that atleast 3 or 4 of those warriors would have died in Adron's disaster. so it would not have been as tough. after all it is mario. >From: Matthew Hunter >Reply-To: matthew at infodancer.org >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: Kragar >Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 04:12:09 -0500 > >On Wed, Jul 10, 2002 at 05:13:10PM +0800, Andrew Bailey > wrote: > > http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~phoenix/brust/mario.html > >He's just the author, what does he know? > >Besides, that's hearsay. Inadmissable in court. > >-- >Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) _________________________________________________________________ Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------------------- Introducing NetZero Long Distance Unlimited Long Distance only $29.95/ month! Sign Up Today! www.netzerolongdistance.com From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Wed Jul 10 21:16:59 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 23:16:59 -0500 Subject: Kragar Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gametech" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 11:16 PM Subject: Re: Kragar > books at bofh.com wrote: > >> Matthew Hunter writes: > >> Which leads me to my current pet theory... Kragar is Mario. > > > >> Steven has explicitly said that, after the _Orca_ surprise, nobody is > >> nobody else (that is, no existing character is secretly another > >> character). > > > > It is my recollection that Steve has also said the following: > > o We have met Mario in the Vlad books. > > o Kragar is not Mario > > o The Demon is not Mario (in spite of this statement, it's my > > favorite theory) > > > > I would interpret the 'no one is no one else' statement to mean that > > there are not two major characters who are one individual, not that > > we've never met a major character in disguise. > > > > -Jot > Err... well none other than Sethra Lavode and Kiera err.... it isn't possible that it's all a big joke now is it? From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Wed Jul 10 21:34:29 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 23:34:29 -0500 Subject: Kragar References: Message-ID: Jose Marquez wrote: > Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >> >> In a message dated 7/10/2002 4:54:20 PM Mountain Daylight Time, >> skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: >> >>> No. >> >> Oooooooo!! - claps hands together gleefully- Twenty Questions! I >> loooooove Twenty Questions! > > Is Mario bigger than a bread box? > > *grin* > > Jose What part of Mario are you inquiring about? The worst part of what I just said is once you've read it you can't un-read it. From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Wed Jul 10 21:38:18 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 23:38:18 -0500 Subject: Kragar References: <01KJXAEUXV38000A5G@chud.net> <01KJXAXGN78S000A5G@chud.net> <3D2CE4AF.4040500@networkharmoni.com.au> Message-ID: Andrew Bailey wrote: > books at bofh.com wrote: >>>> I would interpret the 'no one is no one else' statement to mean >>>> that there are not two major characters who are one individual, >>>> not that we've never met a major character in disguise. >>> >> >>> This does not rule out Sethra (my guess). >> >> >> Well, if the narrator of FYA can be trusted somewhat, this can't be, >> as Sethra and Mario were in the throne room at the same time. >> > > Firstly I very much doubt that Mario is Sethra, but for the sake of > argument:) > > > If Mario and Sethra were in the throne room at the same time and > Sethra is Mario , > > It logically follows that MarioSethra can be in two different places > at the same time. > > Now this is where I get vauge, but I seem to remember that being in > two diffenent places at the same time is considered as one of the > defining characteristics of being a God( cant remember where I read > that , and it could be completely incorrect :(, anyone confirm? ). > > So it follows then that Sethra would be a God:) > > Andrew. Except for she explictly states she turned down learning how to become one in Issola I believe. From alan at 5sc.net Thu Jul 11 04:40:49 2002 From: alan at 5sc.net (Alan) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 07:40:49 -0400 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020710150735.00a8b300@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: > At 03:38 PM 7/10/2002 -0400, you wrote: > > >Sorry for the tersely phrased interrogative. Here is what I should have > >asked: > > > >Underneath one short sentence that was followed by a long > sentence that took > >up three lines, and proposed two separate but related guesses was your > >reply. > >"That is correct," I took to possibly mean that the the entire > sentence is > >correct. This would mean that Mario HAD just left Aliera. This is the > >clarification > >that I was looking for. > > Okay, now I'm really confused. > > It is true that, in Jar-head, there is a scene where Aliera > appears looking > rather happy. In that scene, we have just missed seeing Mario. > > Does that answer your question? > It sure does, thank you. :) Sorry for being such a minimalist earlier. Alan From alan at 5sc.net Thu Jul 11 04:45:25 2002 From: alan at 5sc.net (Alan) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 07:45:25 -0400 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: <3D2CE4AF.4040500@networkharmoni.com.au> Message-ID: > books at bofh.com wrote: > >>>I would interpret the 'no one is no one else' statement to mean that > >>>there are not two major characters who are one individual, not that > >>>we've never met a major character in disguise. > >> > > > >>This does not rule out Sethra (my guess). > > > > > > Well, if the narrator of FYA can be trusted somewhat, this can't be, > > as Sethra and Mario were in the throne room at the same time. > > > > Firstly I very much doubt that Mario is Sethra, but for the sake of > argument:) > > > If Mario and Sethra were in the throne room at the same time and > Sethra is Mario , > > It logically follows that MarioSethra can be in two different places at > the same time. > > Now this is where I get vauge, but I seem to remember that being in two > diffenent places at the same time is considered as one of the defining > characteristics of being a God( cant remember where I read that , and > it could be completely incorrect :(, anyone confirm? ). > > So it follows then that Sethra would be a God:) > Ok, I'll go along with Verra being Sethra too. *G* Look, whacked theories are what chairs and beer were invented FOR ! Alan From scs at di.org Thu Jul 11 07:14:23 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:14:23 -0400 Subject: Krager Message-ID: <20020711141423.GA3285@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Jose writes: > > Twenty Questions! > Is Mario bigger than a bread box? Gawd, I hope not. Poor Aliera. -- ``You gotta distinguish between telling a tale for amusement, as in "Well, there I was facing down the crowds at Riotcon...", and telling it for the record, as in "Well, you see, officer, it happened like this...". (Actually, that might not be the best example.)'' -- Chris Clayton, in private email From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Jul 11 07:26:05 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:26:05 -0400 Subject: Krager Message-ID: <30D72B8A.493162E3.0296E7C9@aol.com> In a message dated Thu, 11 Jul 2002 9:14:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, scs at di.org writes: > > > Twenty Questions! > > > Is Mario bigger than a bread box? > > Gawd, I hope not. Poor Aliera. -chokes on laughter- Hah! From Gaertk at aol.com Thu Jul 11 08:53:03 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:53:03 -0400 Subject: Who's in Viscount Message-ID: <1D2F8867.0FFB7AFC.00048EA6@aol.com> Thomas mentioned in the Kragar thread that he wondered if we'd see him in _Paths of the Dead_, so I thought I'd start a thread to speculate on who all we think we'll see in the Viscount books. * Khaavren, definitely * at least one of Pel, Aerich, and Tazendra: "some of ... even exerting their influences as far as the Interregnum itself" TPG xv-xv1 * Daro, since she seems to still be alive * Zerika IV, Morrolan, Sethra Lavode each have a book dedicated to them * when I asked about the cover art, Brust mentioned someone named Poli?, who I guess would be Khaavren's son * Grita, explicitly mentioned by Paarfi at end of FHYA * Ibronka, according to someone claiming to have heard Brust read an excerpt at a recent con * Teldra, since it'd be hard to talk about Morrolan without her Those are the ones I'm certain of, anyone want to add some more or start the wild speculation? --KG From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Jul 11 09:26:32 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:26:32 EDT Subject: extra copy of _Athyra_? Message-ID: <94.290ef219.2a5f0bb8@aol.com> The cheapest way to find any out of print book is to peruse your local book exchange. The Book Exchange in Cranford, NJ has an excellent selection of science fiction and fantasy. I found several of the Vlad Taltos books there. I know it takes alot of time to go through used book stores, but remember, the journey is half the fun of getting there. I often find that I go for one book but come home with totally diferent books, all of them treasures that I had been searching for. From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Jul 11 09:28:25 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:28:25 EDT Subject: Krager Message-ID: <3d.20f6d79b.2a5f0c29@aol.com> And all this time I thought Liosh was Mario!!!! Imagine my chagrin :( From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Jul 11 10:01:37 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:01:37 -0400 Subject: Who's in Viscount In-Reply-To: <1D2F8867.0FFB7AFC.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thursday, July 11, 2002, at 11:53 AM, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > Thomas mentioned in the Kragar thread that he wondered if > we'd see him in _Paths of the Dead_, so I thought I'd start > a thread to speculate on who all we think we'll see in the > Viscount books. > > * Khaavren, definitely > * at least one of Pel, Aerich, and Tazendra: "some of ... > even exerting their influences as far as the Interregnum > itself" TPG xv-xv1 > * Daro, since she seems to still be alive > * Zerika IV, Morrolan, Sethra Lavode each have a book > dedicated to them > * when I asked about the cover art, Brust mentioned someone > named Poli?, who I guess would be Khaavren's son > * Grita, explicitly mentioned by Paarfi at end of FHYA > * Ibronka, according to someone claiming to have heard Brust > read an excerpt at a recent con > * Teldra, since it'd be hard to talk about Morrolan without > her > > Those are the ones I'm certain of, anyone want to add some > more or start the wild speculation? > > --KG > I'll venture wildly here and say Kragar > ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Thu Jul 11 10:15:40 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:15:40 -0700 Subject: Who's in Viscount Message-ID: Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > * Ibronka, according to someone claiming to have heard Brust > read an excerpt at a recent con My memory fails me. Who is Ibronka again? The name is so familiar, but I can't remember from where... Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From moghan_david at yahoo.com Thu Jul 11 10:48:45 2002 From: moghan_david at yahoo.com (Robert Opramolla) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:48:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020711174846.2572.qmail@web20415.mail.yahoo.com> Jose Marquez wrote: Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 7/10/2002 4:54:20 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > > > No. > > Oooooooo!! - claps hands together gleefully- Twenty Questions! I loooooove > Twenty Questions! Is Mario bigger than a bread box? *grin* Jose Finally an intellgent question. Thanks for making my day. "big grin" --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access From nathan at player.org Thu Jul 11 11:05:47 2002 From: nathan at player.org (Nathan P. Bardsley) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:05:47 -0700 Subject: Cover art (Re: Who's in Viscount) In-Reply-To: <1D2F8867.0FFB7AFC.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020711105505.02174808@localhost> Yeah, I'm curious about the cover art, especially since Rakeland passed away in that horrible accident. --Nathan At 08:53 AM 11-07-02, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >Thomas mentioned in the Kragar thread that he wondered if >we'd see him in _Paths of the Dead_, so I thought I'd start >a thread to speculate on who all we think we'll see in the >Viscount books. > >* Khaavren, definitely >* at least one of Pel, Aerich, and Tazendra: "some of ... >even exerting their influences as far as the Interregnum >itself" TPG xv-xv1 >* Daro, since she seems to still be alive >* Zerika IV, Morrolan, Sethra Lavode each have a book >dedicated to them >* when I asked about the cover art, Brust mentioned someone >named Poli?, who I guess would be Khaavren's son >* Grita, explicitly mentioned by Paarfi at end of FHYA >* Ibronka, according to someone claiming to have heard Brust >read an excerpt at a recent con >* Teldra, since it'd be hard to talk about Morrolan without >her > >Those are the ones I'm certain of, anyone want to add some >more or start the wild speculation? > >--KG From lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com Thu Jul 11 11:40:23 2002 From: lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com (Lowki Liesmith) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:40:23 -0400 Subject: Who's in Viscount Message-ID: I'll also throw in and say that we will most likely see Devera at a few times in the Viscount of adrilanka. >From: Chris Turkel >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: Who's in Viscount >Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:01:37 -0400 > > >On Thursday, July 11, 2002, at 11:53 AM, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > >>Thomas mentioned in the Kragar thread that he wondered if >>we'd see him in _Paths of the Dead_, so I thought I'd start >>a thread to speculate on who all we think we'll see in the >>Viscount books. >> >>* Khaavren, definitely >>* at least one of Pel, Aerich, and Tazendra: "some of ... >>even exerting their influences as far as the Interregnum >>itself" TPG xv-xv1 >>* Daro, since she seems to still be alive >>* Zerika IV, Morrolan, Sethra Lavode each have a book >>dedicated to them >>* when I asked about the cover art, Brust mentioned someone >>named Poli?, who I guess would be Khaavren's son >>* Grita, explicitly mentioned by Paarfi at end of FHYA >>* Ibronka, according to someone claiming to have heard Brust >>read an excerpt at a recent con >>* Teldra, since it'd be hard to talk about Morrolan without >>her >> >>Those are the ones I'm certain of, anyone want to add some >>more or start the wild speculation? >> >>--KG >> >I'll venture wildly here and say Kragar >> >------ >Chris Turkel >Guru, Dragaera Readalong List >http://dragaera.info >Buy my Book! >www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html > _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com Thu Jul 11 11:44:59 2002 From: lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com (Lowki Liesmith) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:44:59 -0400 Subject: Mr. Brust please shead some light Message-ID: You have said we have met mario in the Vlad books, will you do me and the rest of the people on this mailing list a small favor? will you please tell us where we find Mario in the books because it seems you have us all stumped on this. thank you _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com Thu Jul 11 11:52:37 2002 From: lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com (Lowki Liesmith) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:52:37 -0400 Subject: was mario in Jhereg? Message-ID: was mario in the opening seen in Jhereg where vlad was just a little boy in his fathers restraunt, the first time Vlad met Kiera? Just wondering. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From Raellew at aol.com Thu Jul 11 11:54:17 2002 From: Raellew at aol.com (Raellew at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:54:17 EDT Subject: Who's in Viscount Message-ID: <135.111905aa.2a5f2e59@aol.com> In a message dated 7/11/02, Lowki Liesmith writes: >I'll also throw in and say that we will most likely see Devera at a few >times in the Viscount of adrilanka. Nah. Too far-fetched. Rae From mneme at io.com Thu Jul 11 12:06:25 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:06:25 -0500 Subject: Who's in Viscount In-Reply-To: References: <1D2F8867.0FFB7AFC.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <15661.55089.36105.908272@hagbard.io.com> Chris Turkel writes: >I'll venture wildly here and say Kragar Would we notice if he was? :) -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breath, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From bertowud at gator.net Thu Jul 11 12:59:04 2002 From: bertowud at gator.net (Robert Wood) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 15:59:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mr. Brust please shead some light In-Reply-To: <59003.209.208.44.34.1026417509.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> References: <59003.209.208.44.34.1026417509.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> Message-ID: <59003.209.208.44.34.1026417544.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> >> You have said we have met mario in the Vlad books, will you do me and >> the rest of the people on this mailing list a small favor? will you >> please tell us where we find Mario in the books because it seems you >> have us all stumped on this. >> >> thank you Yeah, like he's going to answer that! Ha! From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Thu Jul 11 13:15:55 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:15:55 -0700 Subject: Mr. Brust please shead some light Message-ID: Robert Wood wrote: > > >> You have said we have met mario in the Vlad books, will you do me and > >> the rest of the people on this mailing list a small favor? will you > >> please tell us where we find Mario in the books because it seems you > >> have us all stumped on this. > >> > >> thank you > > Yeah, like he's going to answer that! Ha! Um, he already has. See my quotation below: > Steven Brust wrote: > > > > At 05:41 PM 7/10/2002 -0500, Matthew Hunter wrote: > > > > >Have we met Mario face-to-face in the Vlad books (even if > > >disguised as someone else)? > > > > No. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Jul 11 13:34:14 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:34:14 -0700 Subject: Who's in Viscount In-Reply-To: <1D2F8867.0FFB7AFC.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020711133309.00ab2450@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:53 AM 7/11/2002 -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >* Zerika IV, Morrolan, Sethra Lavode each have a book >dedicated to them The fourth? Are you sure this is Zerika *the fourth*? Uh, on. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Jul 11 13:37:06 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:37:06 -0700 Subject: Cover art (Re: Who's in Viscount) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020711105505.02174808@localhost> References: <1D2F8867.0FFB7AFC.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020711133653.027db3b0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:05 AM 7/11/2002 -0700, Nathan P. Bardsley wrote: >Yeah, I'm curious about the cover art, especially since Rakeland passed >away in that horrible accident. What???? From bertowud at gator.net Thu Jul 11 13:56:20 2002 From: bertowud at gator.net (Robert Wood) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:56:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mr. Brust please shead some light In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56053.209.208.44.34.1026420980.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> Jose Marquez wrote: > Um, he already has. See my quotation below: I just meant if we had seen Mario, does anyone think Steve would let us in on it. Steve can, from what I can tell, dodge answering a question with the best of politicians. Actually, on second thought, he just doesn't answer them. Robert From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Jul 11 13:31:14 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:31:14 -0700 Subject: Mr. Brust please shead some light In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020711133048.00aad550@pop3.lvcm.com> At 02:44 PM 7/11/2002 -0400, Lowki Liesmith wrote: >You have said we have met mario in the Vlad books, No, in fact I said we *haven't* met Mario in the Vlad books. From nathan at player.org Thu Jul 11 14:25:25 2002 From: nathan at player.org (Nathan P. Bardsley) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:25:25 -0700 Subject: Cover art (Re: Who's in Viscount) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020711133653.027db3b0@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020711105505.02174808@localhost> <1D2F8867.0FFB7AFC.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020711141123.02174910@localhost> I had a chance to catch up with Rick Berry last year, who mentioned it. Didn't you see Rick at Minicon? Maybe I've got the details wrong, there was much whisky and beer at the time. --Nathan At 01:37 PM 11-07-02, Steven Brust wrote: >At 11:05 AM 7/11/2002 -0700, Nathan P. Bardsley wrote: >>Yeah, I'm curious about the cover art, especially since Rakeland passed >>away in that horrible accident. > >What???? From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Jul 11 14:45:57 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:45:57 EDT Subject: Mr. Brust please shead some light Message-ID: <18f.a86c705.2a5f5695@aol.com> Does this mean we will meet him in the future???? And- if we haven't met him, how did we get onto this disscussion in the first place? From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Jul 11 14:48:09 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:48:09 -0700 Subject: Mr. Brust please shead some light In-Reply-To: <18f.a86c705.2a5f5695@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020711144723.02823010@pop3.lvcm.com> At 05:45 PM 7/11/2002 -0400, Randi128 at aol.com wrote: >Does this mean we will meet him in the future???? It's not impossible. >And- if we haven't met him, how did we get onto this disscussion in the first >place? It is possible that he has been referred to by other characters. From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Jul 11 14:49:48 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:49:48 EDT Subject: was mario in Jhereg? Message-ID: <138.1112fbca.2a5f577c@aol.com> lowki liesmith wrote was mario in the opening scene in jhereg.... See Shed some light thread for the definitive answer from steve himself. From Gaertk at aol.com Thu Jul 11 14:57:11 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:57:11 -0400 Subject: Who's in Viscount Message-ID: <42283BA3.0237B388.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Thu, 11 Jul 2002 3:34:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, Steven Brust writes: > At 11:53 AM 7/11/2002 -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > >> * Zerika IV, Morrolan, Sethra Lavode each have a book >> dedicated to them > > The fourth? ?Are you sure this is Zerika *the fourth*? ? > Uh, on. Pretty sure. At least, that's what it says on the title page of TPG. --KG From frank at exit.com Thu Jul 11 14:57:38 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:57:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: was mario in Jhereg? In-Reply-To: <138.1112fbca.2a5f577c@aol.com> Message-ID: <200207112157.g6BLvcFH093369@realtime.exit.com> Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > lowki liesmith wrote was mario in the opening scene in jhereg.... > > See Shed some light thread for the definitive answer from steve himself. Better, why don't you go back and reread Jhereg, then return and tell us _your_ opinion? -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From Gaertk at aol.com Thu Jul 11 15:02:27 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 18:02:27 -0400 Subject: Who's in Viscount Message-ID: <585E72E9.557E2056.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:15:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, Jose Marquez writes: > Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >> >> * Ibronka, according to someone claiming to have heard >> Brust read an excerpt at a recent con > > My memory fails me. Who is Ibronka again? The name is so > familiar, but I can't remember from where... [click my way over to the Dramatis Personae page] Vlad's grandmother and also a former girlfriend. Though I don't expect either to appear in Viscount. There's also a classic Hungarian folktale "Fair Maid Ibronka". --KG From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Jul 11 15:33:10 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 15:33:10 -0700 Subject: Who's in Viscount In-Reply-To: <42283BA3.0237B388.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020711153215.00a8aad0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 05:57 PM 7/11/2002 -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >In a message dated Thu, 11 Jul 2002 3:34:14 PM Eastern >Standard Time, Steven Brust writes: > > > At 11:53 AM 7/11/2002 -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > > >> * Zerika IV, Morrolan, Sethra Lavode each have a book > >> dedicated to them > > > > The fourth? Are you sure this is Zerika *the fourth*? > > Uh, on. > >Pretty sure. At least, that's what it says on the title >page of TPG. No, it's okay. It is Zerika the Fourth, and that's what I used in Viscount. I just scared myself--it's what happens when I try to do email while drinking first cup of coffee. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Jul 11 15:34:19 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 15:34:19 -0700 Subject: Who's in Viscount In-Reply-To: <585E72E9.557E2056.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020711153352.00a8b2a0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 06:02 PM 7/11/2002 -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >There's also a classic Hungarian folktale "Fair Maid >Ibronka". Give the man a cigar. :-) From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Thu Jul 11 19:13:26 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 19:13:26 -0700 Subject: Mr. Brust please shead some light In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020711144723.02823010@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <18f.a86c705.2a5f5695@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020711144723.02823010@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <20020712021326.GA17437@ofb.net> On Thu, Jul 11, 2002 at 02:48:09PM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: > It is possible that he has been referred to by other characters. Oh, and here I thought it was a hallucination of the Hungarian drugs I'd been taking. (Because Hungarians invented pot and LSD, of course.) :) (Hmm, taltos shrooms...) -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Thu Jul 11 19:26:44 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 19:26:44 -0700 Subject: Mario In-Reply-To: <20020712021326.GA17437@ofb.net> References: <18f.a86c705.2a5f5695@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020711144723.02823010@pop3.lvcm.com> <20020712021326.GA17437@ofb.net> Message-ID: <20020712022644.GA18889@ofb.net> I've added the recent ex cathedra statements to my Mario page, BTW. So there's a reference to settle debates with. I suppose the clever thing would be to link directly to the archived e-mails, but that's more work than I care for, especially since the archive seems hard to navigate in lynx. -xx- Damien X-) From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Jul 11 20:02:14 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 11 Jul 2002 22:02:14 -0500 Subject: Mario In-Reply-To: <20020712022644.GA18889@ofb.net> References: <18f.a86c705.2a5f5695@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020711144723.02823010@pop3.lvcm.com> <20020712021326.GA17437@ofb.net> <20020712022644.GA18889@ofb.net> Message-ID: Damien Sullivan writes: > I've added the recent ex cathedra statements to my Mario page, BTW. So > there's a reference to settle debates with. This message? http://dragaera.info/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?mss:979:200207:ghghdgfbmiachhllcmpp > I suppose the clever thing would be to link directly to the archived e-mails, > but that's more work than I care for, especially since the archive seems hard > to navigate in lynx. Sorry about the lynx trouble. Unfortunately it's not my code, and I haven't configured many options, so I doubt I've turned on extra things that cause problems. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From frankNfi at zip.com.au Fri Jul 12 04:03:55 2002 From: frankNfi at zip.com.au (frankNfi) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 21:03:55 +1000 Subject: Kragar References: <01KJXAEUXV38000A5G@chud.net> <01KJXAXGN78S000A5G@chud.net> Message-ID: <3D2EB79B.2060405@zip.com.au> books at bofh.com wrote: >>> I would interpret the 'no one is no one else' statement to mean that >>> there are not two major characters who are one individual, not that >>> we've never met a major character in disguise. >> >> This does not rule out Sethra (my guess). > > > Well, if the narrator of FYA can be trusted somewhat, this can't be, > as Sethra and Mario were in the throne room at the same time. > > Additionally, Aliera and Mario seemed to have had an intiminate encounter. > I think Sethra is good at disguise, but not THAT good. > > -Jot > > Sethra is a shape shifter - not just good at disgiuse. But as Sethra is not a god (and therefore cannot be in two places at onece) she cannot be Mario. From frankNfi at zip.com.au Fri Jul 12 04:22:57 2002 From: frankNfi at zip.com.au (frankNfi) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 21:22:57 +1000 Subject: Kragar References: <0B77F954.4B4E0AAE.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D2EBC11.3090109@zip.com.au> > > >> We HAVE met Mario. No almost involved. > > > *If* you believe what Paarfi says. Ask yourself what > sources he could possibly be using for those scenes. > > --KG > FHYA is purportedly published in the year 11 of Reign of the Dragon Norathar the Second. By then Mario could have published his memoirs, or Paarfi could have interviewed the happy couple of Mario & Aliera. Francesco > From kknolte at ecity.net Sun Jul 14 15:28:39 2002 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 16:28:39 -0600 Subject: Kragar References: <0B77F954.4B4E0AAE.00048EA6@aol.com> <3D2EBC11.3090109@zip.com.au> Message-ID: <3D31FB15.7905@ecity.net> frankNfi wrote: > > *If* you believe what Paarfi says. Ask yourself what > > sources he could possibly be using for those scenes. > > > > --KG > > > FHYA is purportedly published in the year 11 of Reign of the Dragon > Norathar the Second. By then Mario could have published his memoirs, or > Paarfi could > have interviewed the happy couple of Mario & Aliera. Maybe Paarfi is Mario? Given Mario's payscale, he needs some way to explain the money he makes. And being officially known as a nosy researcher might make it easier to investigate someone. From Raellew at aol.com Sun Jul 14 15:33:20 2002 From: Raellew at aol.com (Raellew at aol.com) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 18:33:20 EDT Subject: Kragar Message-ID: <103.1836ecb5.2a635630@aol.com> In a message dated 7/14/02, K Kuhn writes: >Maybe Paarfi is Mario? Given Mario's payscale, he needs >some way to explain the money he makes. And being >officially known as a nosy researcher might make it easier >to investigate someone. I'm thinking of the interview in FYA, the new Vlad book Brust says he's considering: "Yes. In this one, he is paid an immense amount of money to kill an annoying, stuffy, pretentious historical novelist, but ends up doing the job for free, and, in the course of the book, he discovers he enjoys torture, and-" I'm picturing Vlad's face as he realizes.... I love it. I don't believe it, but I love it. Rae From rachael at daedala.net Sun Jul 14 19:21:28 2002 From: rachael at daedala.net (Rachael Lininger) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 21:21:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: <3D31FB15.7905@ecity.net> Message-ID: On Jul 14, K Kuhn said: >frankNfi wrote: > >> > *If* you believe what Paarfi says. Ask yourself what >> > sources he could possibly be using for those scenes. >> > >> FHYA is purportedly published in the year 11 of Reign of the Dragon >> Norathar the Second. By then Mario could have published his memoirs, or >> Paarfi could >> have interviewed the happy couple of Mario & Aliera. > >Maybe Paarfi is Mario? Given Mario's payscale, he needs some way to >explain the money he makes. And being officially known as a nosy >researcher might make it easier to investigate someone. This is sick. I love it. I don't believe it, but I love it. Rachael -- Rachael From the Dilbert Newsletter: Lininger "You should talk to her. rachael@ She is a minefield of information." daedala.net From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Sun Jul 14 19:39:52 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 21:39:52 -0500 Subject: Athyra Message-ID: <3D3235F8.2CFA18C0@attbi.com> Hey, all! I've been re-reading the Vlad books--I'm up to Athyra. Some random thoughts: Will we ever see Savn again? We know he recovered his faculties to a considerable degree and went home to his folks, but after that??? He's an interesting guy. I keep trying to figure out how old he would be in human terms. I'm guessing maybe 14 or 15? Any wisdom on this, O Authoratative One? Obviously at least one novel still missing between Phoenix and Athyra--looking forward to that . . . Oh, yeah--this is driving me crazy. I couldn't find Devera in there anywhere. Any clues? I loved seeing things from Rocza's POV. Poor thing had *no* idea what she was getting herself in for, did she? Cheers! Mia From andrew at networkharmoni.com.au Sun Jul 14 19:49:12 2002 From: andrew at networkharmoni.com.au (Andrew Bailey) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 10:49:12 +0800 Subject: Athyra References: <3D3235F8.2CFA18C0@attbi.com> Message-ID: <3D323828.8020400@networkharmoni.com.au> Mia McDavid wrote: > Hey, all! > > I've been re-reading the Vlad books--I'm up to Athyra. Some random > thoughts: > > Will we ever see Savn again? We know he recovered his faculties to a > considerable degree and went home to his folks, but after that??? He's > an interesting guy. > > I keep trying to figure out how old he would be in human terms. I'm > guessing maybe 14 or 15? Any wisdom on this, O Authoratative One? > > Obviously at least one novel still missing between Phoenix and > Athyra--looking forward to that . . . > > Oh, yeah--this is driving me crazy. I couldn't find Devera in there > anywhere. Any clues? http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~phoenix/brust/devfaq.html#sightings HTH Andrew. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sun Jul 14 19:55:22 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 19:55:22 -0700 Subject: Athyra In-Reply-To: <3D3235F8.2CFA18C0@attbi.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020714195416.00ab9010@pop3.lvcm.com> At 09:39 PM 7/14/2002 -0500, Mia McDavid wrote: >I keep trying to figure out how old he would be in human terms. I'm >guessing maybe 14 or 15? Any wisdom on this, O Authoratative One? Yeah, I was thinking 14 or 15. From kknolte at ecity.net Mon Jul 15 17:24:33 2002 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:24:33 -0600 Subject: Kragar References: <103.1836ecb5.2a635630@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D3367C0.2B10@ecity.net> Raellew at aol.com wrote: > I'm thinking of the interview in FYA, the new Vlad book > Brust says he's considering: "Yes. In this one, he is paid > an immense amount of money to kill an annoying, stuffy, > pretentious historical novelist, but ends up doing the job > for free, and, in the course of the book, he discovers he > enjoys torture, and-" > > I'm picturing Vlad's face as he realizes.... > > I love it. I don't believe it, but I love it. Wow - that makes the theory even better - after all, the quote is ambiguous enough that it could mean that Vlad discovers he likes being tortured, as well as torturing others, or both. So, Mario (Paarfi) kills his victims by reading some of his more convoluted passages to them [1] - Vlad discovers he likes it, which also explains why he's gone in for narrating his story to others. [1] - Presumably, listening to Dragaeran bureaucrats report on the Imperial finances can be as boring as listening to RL ones. It follows that the Orb doesn't protect the Emperor from being bored - otherwise he couldn't do his job. So, Mario figured out that boring an Emperor to death was the one way to assassinate an Emperor that the Orb wouldn't protect against. QED. From Raellew at aol.com Mon Jul 15 18:01:49 2002 From: Raellew at aol.com (Raellew at aol.com) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 21:01:49 EDT Subject: Kragar Message-ID: <1a3.53ddf6a.2a64ca7d@aol.com> In a message dated 7/15/02, K Kuhn writes: >Wow - that makes the theory even better - after all, the >quote is ambiguous enough that it could mean that Vlad >discovers he likes being tortured, as well as torturing >others, or both. Oh, god. >So, Mario (Paarfi) kills his victims by reading some of his >more convoluted passages to them As much as I love Paarfi, I can see this. Rae From zizban at adelphia.net Mon Jul 15 18:05:21 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 21:05:21 -0400 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: <1a3.53ddf6a.2a64ca7d@aol.com> Message-ID: <19E26D3B-9858-11D6-B0F1-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Monday, July 15, 2002, at 09:01 PM, Raellew at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/15/02, K Kuhn writes: > >> Wow - that makes the theory even better - after all, the >> quote is ambiguous enough that it could mean that Vlad >> discovers he likes being tortured, as well as torturing >> others, or both. > > Oh, god. > >> So, Mario (Paarfi) kills his victims by reading some of his >> more convoluted passages to them > > As much as I love Paarfi, I can see this. > > Rae It would fit, in a twisted way :-) > ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From alan at 5sc.net Tue Jul 16 05:14:43 2002 From: alan at 5sc.net (Alan) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 08:14:43 -0400 Subject: Kragar In-Reply-To: <19E26D3B-9858-11D6-B0F1-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: > On Monday, July 15, 2002, at 09:01 PM, Raellew at aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 7/15/02, K Kuhn writes: > > > >> Wow - that makes the theory even better - after all, the > >> quote is ambiguous enough that it could mean that Vlad > >> discovers he likes being tortured, as well as torturing > >> others, or both. > > > > Oh, god. > > > >> So, Mario (Paarfi) kills his victims by reading some of his > >> more convoluted passages to them > > > > As much as I love Paarfi, I can see this. > > > > Rae > It would fit, in a twisted way :-) > > > ------ > Chris Turkel These theories are on the right track, but don't go far enough. Sethra, who is really Steve, created us so we could read him. Alan ( who has had WAY too much coffee, but enjoys it anyway ) From Randi128 at aol.com Tue Jul 16 06:49:13 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 09:49:13 EDT Subject: was mario in Jhereg? Message-ID: <6e.1f86aaad.2a657e59@aol.com> Thu,11 Jul 2002 14:57:38 Frank Mayhar Wrote: Better, Why don't you go back and reread..... Dear frank, I did go back and reread the opening chapter on the off chance that in my enfeebled old age, I had missed something. I did not read anything that led me to believe that Mr. Brust was fabricating when he wrote that we had never met Mario face to to face in any of the Taltos books. I did see references in chapter 1 to Mario in the third person, in regards to an assination. I must stand on my original reply which directed the quester to look at Mr. Brusts original reply to this question of whether or not we had met Mario. Sorry it took so long to reply. I'm only here 2 days out of the week. Thankyou, John D. Barbato,OD From moghan_david at yahoo.com Tue Jul 16 16:10:11 2002 From: moghan_david at yahoo.com (Robert Opramolla) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: was mario in Jhereg? In-Reply-To: <6e.1f86aaad.2a657e59@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020716231011.37822.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com> After rereading the opener to Jhereg again myself, it is clear that the assassination attempt at Vlad?s Father?s restaurant was clearly not Mario. If Mario is as good as we are led to believe, Vlad would never have even noticed him. Besides I don?t remember Mario ever working with another Jhereg. And he would have paid for his meal too. Mario has real class. I think the question that needs to be asked. Was the whole assassination as set up by Sethra/Kiera to gain the confidence of Vlad? He was more shocked by her kindness than by witnessing a murder. How long as she been manipulating him or for that matter the whole Taltos family! While I believe that Sethra has come to have quite a fondness for our Assassin. She needed him, and ensured that he had the necessary tools to fulfill that need. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes From terrick at cox.net Tue Jul 16 22:09:27 2002 From: terrick at cox.net (ryan) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 00:09:27 -0500 Subject: was mario in Jhereg? In-Reply-To: <20020716231011.37822.qmail@web20418.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003b01c22d50$1fd0b3c0$0364a8c0@darwin> I've been wondering that very same thing myself for awhile. So far haven't picked up on any other hints that the murder was a setup. -----Original Message----- From: Robert Opramolla [mailto:moghan_david at yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 6:10 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: was mario in Jhereg? After rereading the opener to Jhereg again myself, it is clear that the assassination attempt at Vlad's Father's restaurant was clearly not Mario. If Mario is as good as we are led to believe, Vlad would never have even noticed him. Besides I don't remember Mario ever working with another Jhereg. And he would have paid for his meal too. Mario has real class. I think the question that needs to be asked. Was the whole assassination as set up by Sethra/Kiera to gain the confidence of Vlad? He was more shocked by her kindness than by witnessing a murder. How long as she been manipulating him or for that matter the whole Taltos family! While I believe that Sethra has come to have quite a fondness for our Assassin. She needed him, and ensured that he had the necessary tools to fulfill that need. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes From Gaertk at aol.com Wed Jul 17 07:06:21 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:06:21 -0400 Subject: was mario in Jhereg? Message-ID: <225C69FA.04459893.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Tue, 16 Jul 2002 6:10:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, Robert Opramolla writes: > After rereading the opener to Jhereg again myself, it is > clear that the assassination attempt at Vlad?s Father?s > restaurant was clearly not Mario. If Mario is as good as > we are led to believe, Vlad would never have even noticed > him. I assumed the person who first asked this question was talking about the guy Kiera was eating with, not the assassin. > I think the question that needs to be asked. Was the whole > assassination as set up by Sethra/Kiera to gain the > confidence of Vlad? He was more shocked by her kindness > than by witnessing a murder. I'm not sure about that scene (could have been coincidence that Kiera was there, or Verra's doing; Vlad did pray to her). But I am convinced that everything in _Taltos_ was set up to put Aliera and Morrolan in Vlad's debt. --KG From lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com Wed Jul 17 07:36:17 2002 From: lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com (Lowki Liesmith) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:36:17 -0400 Subject: was mario in Jhereg? Message-ID: you are right I was refering to the person kiera was eating with. >From: Gaertk at aol.com >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: was mario in Jhereg? >Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:06:21 -0400 > >In a message dated Tue, 16 Jul 2002 6:10:11 PM Eastern >Standard Time, Robert Opramolla >writes: > > > After rereading the opener to Jhereg again myself, it is > > clear that the assassination attempt at Vlad?s Father?s > > restaurant was clearly not Mario. If Mario is as good as > > we are led to believe, Vlad would never have even noticed > > him. > >I assumed the person who first asked this question was >talking about the guy Kiera was eating with, not the >assassin. > > > I think the question that needs to be asked. Was the whole > > assassination as set up by Sethra/Kiera to gain the > > confidence of Vlad? He was more shocked by her kindness > > than by witnessing a murder. > >I'm not sure about that scene (could have been coincidence >that Kiera was there, or Verra's doing; Vlad did pray to >her). But I am convinced that everything in _Taltos_ was >set up to put Aliera and Morrolan in Vlad's debt. > > >--KG _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com Wed Jul 17 07:43:37 2002 From: lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com (Lowki Liesmith) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:43:37 -0400 Subject: the next vlad book? Message-ID: does any one know when the next vlad book comes out, I read phoenix about 2 months ago and I'm starting to fiend for more stories of vlad. in that time I read the rest of the brust books (except gypsy because I can't find it).now all I have to read is wheel of time witch I'm starting today. I NEED MORE VLAD!!! _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From zizban at adelphia.net Wed Jul 17 09:19:47 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 12:19:47 -0400 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <03074898-99A1-11D6-9D37-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Wednesday, July 17, 2002, at 10:43 AM, Lowki Liesmith wrote: > does any one know when the next vlad book comes out, I read phoenix > about 2 months ago and I'm starting to fiend for more stories of vlad. > in that time I read the rest of the brust books (except gypsy because I > can't find it).now all I have to read is wheel of time witch I'm > starting today. > > > I NEED MORE VLAD!!! > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com > > The Great and Mighty Steve Knows and he may tell us, if we're lucky. He's mentioned he's under contract for two more vlad books. He just finished Viscount so I'm sure he'll start thinking about the next Vlad book Real Soon Now? ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Jul 17 10:05:31 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 17 Jul 2002 12:05:31 -0500 Subject: was mario in Jhereg? In-Reply-To: <225C69FA.04459893.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <225C69FA.04459893.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: Gaertk at aol.com writes: > I'm not sure about that scene (could have been coincidence > that Kiera was there, or Verra's doing; Vlad did pray to > her). But I am convinced that everything in _Taltos_ was > set up to put Aliera and Morrolan in Vlad's debt. "Set up" by Steven, or by a character in the books (and if so which one)? -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From rone at ennui.org Wed Jul 17 10:39:02 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (figmentality) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:39:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020717173902.6BC9726E25@boredom.ennui.org> Lowki Liesmith writes: does any one know when the next vlad book comes out, I read phoenix about 2 months ago and I'm starting to fiend for more stories of vlad. in that time I read the rest of the brust books (except gypsy because I can't find it).now all I have to read is wheel of time witch I'm starting today. Good god, that's terrible. Someone send this man something else to read! amazon.com says that _The Paths of the Dead_ "will be published in November 2002". They were only a month off with _Issola_, if memory serves. Hm, does Steven have a favorite online bookstore we could support? I only buy at Amazon when i have gift certificates. rone -- Constancy of the speed of light is a conclusion, yes it is a conclusion based on nonconvincing, irrational assumptions. WHAT IS LIGHT?! Whose light? From what sourse? Please do not mention electronagnetics - the same applies to them. - Alexander Abian From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Jul 17 10:47:13 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:47:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the next vlad book? Message-ID: <200207171747.g6HHlBG01375@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Hm, does Steven have a favorite online bookstore we could support? I > only buy at Amazon when i have gift certificates. You could always do what I do and get the ISBN # from Amazon or whoever, and contact a local small-business bookstore and have them order the book for you. They'll get it in within a few days (if it's out already) or they'll get it when the book goes out, and you'll be supporting a Good Cause! The price, btw, won't be much more, if any, than Amazon, who loses money every year anyway... :) OK, enough with the $.02... Chris (new list-member...:) "So farewell hope, and with hope, farewell fear, Farewell remorse! All good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my Good" - John Milton - 'Paradise Lost' From Gaertk at aol.com Wed Jul 17 13:20:52 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 16:20:52 -0400 Subject: was mario in Jhereg? Message-ID: <08977ED8.715E7BE2.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Wed, 17 Jul 2002 12:05:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, David Dyer-Bennet writes: >Gaertk at aol.com writes: > >> I'm not sure about that scene (could have been coincidence >> that Kiera was there, or Verra's doing; Vlad did pray to >> her). ?But I am convinced that everything in _Taltos_ was >> set up to put Aliera and Morrolan in Vlad's debt. > > "Set up" by Steven, or by a character in the books (and if > so which one)? Yes. :) Well, obviously Steven "set up" everything in the books, but I was actually thinking of Sethra. "I can't leave Dzur Mountain" is a really weak excuse. Aliera has been lost for 500 years by now, a couple weeks won't make any difference, and I doubt Sethra expected the Jenoine business to take longer than that. --KG From anthony at netdocuments.com Wed Jul 17 13:22:43 2002 From: anthony at netdocuments.com (Anthony Tedjamulia) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 14:22:43 -0600 Subject: was mario in Jhereg? Message-ID: > I was actually thinking of Sethra. "I can't leave Dzur > Mountain" is a really weak excuse. This is a spoiler, in case you haven't read issola. When she "couldn't leave Dzur Mountain" it was because the Jenowine (sp?) attacked it. From Gaertk at aol.com Wed Jul 17 13:36:19 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 16:36:19 -0400 Subject: the next vlad book? Message-ID: <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Wed, 17 Jul 2002 9:43:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Lowki Liesmith" writes: > does any one know when the next vlad book comes out, I > read phoenix about 2 months ago and I'm starting to fiend > for more stories of vlad. in that time I read the rest of > the brust books (except gypsy because I can't find it). > now all I have to read is wheel of time witch I'm > starting today. Be patient, Brust is worth the wait. Have you found the Liavek anthologies yet? Here's some other fantasy authors I enjoy: Tolkien, Pratchett, Robin Hobb (aka Megan Lindholm), Jo Walton, Diane Duane, and GRR Martin. Be warned that the Wheel of Time starts going downhill after book 4. These days, you can even find real good writing in comic books: Gaiman's , Foglio's , and I've just discovered Smith's . --KG From zizban at adelphia.net Wed Jul 17 13:37:40 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 16:37:40 -0400 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <09CAC615-99C5-11D6-9AB2-00039386187A@adelphia.net> > Snip! > Liavek anthologies yet? > > Here's some other fantasy authors I enjoy: Tolkien, > Pratchett, Robin Hobb (aka Megan Lindholm), Jo Walton, > Diane Duane, and GRR Martin. Be warned that the Wheel of > Time starts going downhill after book 4. > > These days, you can even find real good writing in comic > books: Gaiman's , Foglio's , and > I've just discovered Smith's . > > --KG > Yes the Wheel of Time kind of meanders after book four, though the latest, Winter's Heart, was great, once you get past the Perrin trash at the beginning. The Dragon Reborn remains my favorite of the series so far. Now if you are looking for a book to read, read mine! Sure I'm not in the same league as Steve but I try :-) > ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From Gaertk at aol.com Wed Jul 17 13:40:17 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 16:40:17 -0400 Subject: was mario in Jhereg? Message-ID: <46A1CDDC.5DE62BCD.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Wed, 17 Jul 2002 3:22:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, Anthony Tedjamulia \ writes: >> I was actually thinking of Sethra. ?"I can't leave Dzur >> Mountain" is a really weak excuse. > > This is a spoiler, in case you haven't read issola. ?When > she "couldn't leave Dzur Mountain" it was because the > Jenowine (sp?) attacked it. That's what I meant by the Jenoine business in the part you snipped. And I'm pretty sure that event was mentioned in _Jhereg_, though I'm not sure if it was clear when _Taltos_ came out that that was what was being referenced. --KG From tyan at twcny.rr.com Wed Jul 17 14:04:47 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: 17 Jul 2002 17:04:47 -0400 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: Gaertk@aol.com's message of "Wed, 17 Jul 2002 16:36:19 -0400" References: <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: Gaertk at aol.com writes: > > Be patient, Brust is worth the wait. [...] -snip- How many books do you all read anyway? I guess I average about one book per week, including rereading books. In 1999, I read about 80 books, but that was unusually high for me. > Here's some other fantasy authors I enjoy: Tolkien, > Pratchett, Robin Hobb (aka Megan Lindholm), Jo Walton, Heh, I liked the "a vanished Lindholm" throwaway line in Pamela Dean's JG&R. > Diane Duane, and GRR Martin. Be warned that the Wheel of > Time starts going downhill after book 4. -snip- Some additional fantasy authors I enjoy (not necessarily similar to Brust): P C Hodgell, Laurell K Hamilton, Diana Gabaldon, Patrice Kindl, Tove Jansson, Robin McKinley, Philip Pullman, Norton Juster, Jules Feiffer, Susan Cooper, Pamela Dean, Zenna Henderson, Patricia McKillip, Sheri S Tepper, Orson Scott Card. If you've been avoiding Harry Potter because you think it's just marketing hype, you should give it try, and keep in mind that the first book is the weakest. I liked _Dhalgren_ by Samuel Delany a lot, but I liked the joke Arthur Hlavaty relayed in response to Jo Walton's Scintilla fanzine: Answer: Absolute zero, the center of the Sun, and the end of Dhalgren. Question: Name three things man will never reach. -- from http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk/reviews/scintilla/scint1a.htm Also, I recommend giving Dorothy Dunnett a try. It's historical fiction, but reads to me a lot like fantasy. But do be warned that she likes to narrate from the point of view of characters who don't fully know what's going on, so you tend to be in the dark throughout most of each book until all is revealed at the end...and possibly subverted [1] in the next book. [1] That's not the right word. Overturned or superceded might be better. In general, there's lots of good SF out there, including books by Lois McMaster Bujold, C J Cherryh (hi DDB!), Vernor Vinge, Neal Stephenson, Raphael Carter, Jack Womack, plus many of the "fantasy authors" listed above. - tky From tyan at twcny.rr.com Wed Jul 17 14:09:11 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: 17 Jul 2002 17:09:11 -0400 Subject: Paarfi Message-ID: Do we have any idea how old Paarfi is? - tky From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Jul 17 14:38:34 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 16:38:34 -0500 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: References: <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020717213834.GB20035@infodancer.org> On Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 05:04:47PM -0400, Thomas Yan wrote: > Gaertk at aol.com writes: > > Be patient, Brust is worth the wait. [...] > -snip- > > How many books do you all read anyway? I guess I average about one > book per week, including rereading books. In 1999, I read about 80 > books, but that was unusually high for me. I tend to consume about 1 book per day, with some days where I don't read at all, and books longer than 500 pages sometimes taking two days. It probably averages out to 10-20 books per month. Speaking of which, since the readalong got me rereading Brust in general, and since I just finished Teckla.... Steve, I'm curious how much you agree with Kelly vs Vlad in terms of the "movement". In particular, Vlad is pretty harsh with some of his accusations, and there seems to be some truth to his comments about the "movement" not caring about individuals -- especially when viewed together with historical implementations of similar philosophies. (Plus, I'd like to share a chuckle at the exchange between Noish-pa and Vlad: "What is the word?" "Friends? Compatriots?" clearly a reference to "Comrades!") (Hmm. I wonder, would it be abusing the authorial metaphor too much if the list collectively came up with some interview questions for Vlad the next time he's caught with a tape recorder?) -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From mneme at io.com Wed Jul 17 14:46:15 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 16:46:15 -0500 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: References: <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <15669.58791.198412.512656@eris.io.com> Thomas Yan writes: >Gaertk at aol.com writes: >> Be patient, Brust is worth the wait. [...] >-snip- >How many books do you all read anyway? I guess I average about one >book per week, including rereading books. In 1999, I read about 80 >books, but that was unusually high for me. I vary a lot. Sometimes, I read books in a day; sometimes, it takes as much as a week. The couple of books (Agent of Vega and Mother of Demons) I read recently on my palm took about 2-3 days each, I think, but that was with a convention somewhere in there, and a full weekend. >> Here's some other fantasy authors I enjoy: Tolkien, >> Pratchett, Robin Hobb (aka Megan Lindholm), Jo Walton, >Heh, I liked the "a vanished Lindholm" throwaway line in Pamela Dean's JG&R. Missed that, I think. I like most of these, though I haven't read Jo Walton's fiction yet, and am not nearly as enthralled with Hobb's work as early Lindholm (and need to re-read _Wizard of the Pigeons_). >Some additional fantasy authors I enjoy (not necessarily similar to >Brust): P C Hodgell, Laurell K Hamilton, Diana Gabaldon, Patrice >Kindl, Tove Jansson, Robin McKinley, Philip Pullman, Norton Juster, >Jules Feiffer, Susan Cooper, Pamela Dean, Zenna Henderson, Patricia >McKillip, Sheri S Tepper, Orson Scott Card. Hodgell, McKinley [though I'm very behind on her stuff, and am somewhat more interested in rereading The Blue Sword, et al., than reading the new fairy tale stuff like Beauty, even if the new stuff does look cool], Cooper, and PCD are on my lists too, and Tepper, Card and Pullman get honorable mentions [I've gotten a bit tired of Card, over the years; I think he's a bit too self-similar]; also present are Patricia C. Wrede, Emma Bull, Lloyd Alexander (who is still writing, and even still writing good stuff), Dianne Wynne Jones, Peter Beagle, Bujold (her science fiction, of course..but also _Curse of Challion_, Lord Dunsany (hey, if he comes out with anything new, I'll buy it. :), Neil Gaiman [read Stardust. Just read it -- ideally, the illustrated version], Guy Gavriel Kay (who has been getting better recently), Ellen Kushner (who is coming out with Something New soon; the proofs are already out), Tim Powers, Nancy Springer (another writer who has been maturing recently), Carol Stevermer (even if she' still learning to end books), and Gene Wolfe. Hmm. I've got a pretty long "short list". >I liked _Dhalgren_ by Samuel Delany a lot, but I liked the joke Arthur >Hlavaty relayed in response to Jo Walton's Scintilla fanzine: > Answer: Absolute zero, the center of the Sun, and the end of Dhalgren. > Question: Name three things man will never reach. > -- from http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk/reviews/scintilla/scint1a.htm Even if I enjoyed reading Dhalgren a lot (and finished it despite my copy falling apart as I read it). I actually found Ulyssess [Joyce, of course] much harder...in fact, that was the book that taught me to slow down when reading books, occasionally; before reading it, I was pretty solidly book-a-day; after spending -5 months- reading it, I got a lot more tolerant of re-reading and taking a bit more time on a book. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breath, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Wed Jul 17 15:15:08 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 17:15:08 -0500 Subject: the next vlad book? References: Message-ID: <3D35EC6C.D836C3E8@attbi.com> Well, Paarfi is publishing the first book of his undoubtedly elegant interregnum trilogy this fall, but that coarse fellow Brust hasn't written any new Taltos books that I know of. Even Issola, which was *far* too short, was only written as a palate-cleanser when the trilogy got stuck, afik. Mia From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Wed Jul 17 15:20:26 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 17:20:26 -0500 Subject: the next vlad book? References: <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> <20020717213834.GB20035@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <3D35EDAA.1A20506B@attbi.com> Matthew Hunteer said: > (Hmm. I wonder, would it be abusing the authorial metaphor too much if the list collectively came up with some interview questions for Vlad the next time he's caught with a tape recorder?) > Something I hope will be answered someday . . . Where the *hell* did Vlad *get* the tape recorder??? Mia From dgf at dd-b.net Wed Jul 17 15:17:01 2002 From: dgf at dd-b.net (dgf at dd-b.net) Date: 17 Jul 2002 22:17:01 -0000 Subject: Dragaera subscriber list Message-ID: <20020717221701.8939.qmail@dd-b.net> adia (at) hellug.gr (email) =?iso-8859-7?B?wevd7uHt5PHv8iDE6eHs4e303+Tn8g==?= adina (at) panix.com (email) aheyman (at) rcn.com (email) "Adam Heyman" aiela (at) shellworld.net (email) Angie Burke akomins (at) midway.uchicago.edu (email) Arin Komins Alan.Halsted (at) mailus.com.au (email) Alan Halsted alan (at) 5sc.net (email) "Alan" alipkin (at) learnlink.emory.edu (email) ambyrglow (at) softhome.net (email) ambyrglow (at) softhome.net andrew (at) networkharmoni.com.au (email) Andrew Bailey annoying_dude (at) yahoo.com (digest) Matt Smit anthony (at) netdocuments.com (email) Anthony Tedjamulia baralier (at) optusnet.com.au (email) Baralier BEERcons (at) aol.com (email) BEERcons (at) aol.com Beldarrin (at) aol.com (email) Beldarrin (at) aol.com bertowud (at) gator.net (email) BoneTone22 (at) aol.com (email) BoneTone22 (at) aol.com books (at) bofh.com (email) books (at) bofh.com bowman (at) mac.com (email) Michael Bowman briandmichelle (at) yahoo.com (email) Brian and Michelle Baskett chris.mclaren (at) ieee.org (email) "Chris McLaren" Chrisf.Olson (at) sun.com (email) Chris Olson - SunPS Christopher_M_Kane (at) brown.edu (email) chuning88 (at) yahoo.com (email) cmt17 (at) cable-lynx.net (email) Craig corinna (at) otakurama.com (email) Corinna Cohn corwin (at) mpls.cx (email) (Corwin Brust) cwalker (at) johnadamsmortgage.com (email) "Cal Walker" dale.kunz (at) wcom.com (email) Dale Kunz dalvenjah (at) dal.net (email) Dalvenjah FoxFire dan-tain_ishanti (at) attbi.com (email) "Brad Crawford" david.lish (at) sega.com (email) David Lish dd-b (at) dd-b.net (email) (David Dyer-Bennet) deckelberry (at) yahoo.com (email) David Eckelberry den (at) monger.net (email) dgf (at) dd-b.net (post) diony (at) idiom.com (email) divyasatyam (at) satyam.net.in (email) "Divya" dragaera (at) juima.org (email) Sander Eileenlufkin (at) visi.com (email) "Eileen Lufkin" eimearnim (at) eircom.net (email) eimearnim (at) eircom.net ejpeterson (at) attbi.com (email) eshivak (at) netzero.net (email) "Eric Shivak" FelixEisen (at) aol.com (email) frank (at) exit.com (email) Frank Mayhar frankNfi (at) zip.com.au (digest) frankNfi frozentitan (at) comcast.net (email) Frozen Titan furryjawa (at) yahoo.com (email) David Lish gaertk (at) aol.com (email) Gaertk (at) aol.com gaku169 (at) hotmail.com (digest) "Denis Berthelsen" geewiz (at) mac.com (email) Glenn Ellingson goldfarb (at) ocf.berkeley.edu (email) (David Goldfarb) grapawy (at) yahoo.com (email) Gregory Rapawy harrisonjeff (at) attbi.com (email) "Jeff Harrison" hhertzof (at) panix.com (email) Hilary Hertzoff holden (at) salome.uchicago.edu (email) Brad hologram (at) algonet.se (email) Nicklas Andersson igalbraith (at) ozonline.com.au (email) igalbraith (at) ozonline.com.au (Ian Galbraith) ijamie (at) sympatico.ca (email) "Ian sympatico" j.clendening (at) verizon.net (email) "Verizon" jajohns (at) ilindor.org (email) "Jamie A. 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Nonymous" zizban (at) adelphia.net (email) Chris Turkel From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Wed Jul 17 15:29:19 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 17:29:19 -0500 Subject: the next vlad book? References: <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> <15669.58791.198412.512656@eris.io.com> Message-ID: <3D35EFBF.A257F302@attbi.com> Has anybody mentioned David Weber? Of course, if you haven't already, there's the classics--Asimov, Anderson, Boucher, Niven, Pournelle, Zelazney. I also like Diane Duane--she has done a lot of good young-adult stuff, and her Star Trek novels stand above the others like Gulliver among the Lilliputians. (Got to meet her at Convergence--Woo Hoo!). Neal Stephenson is a hell of a good ride. I'm sure I've missed/forgotten a lot. Gordy Dickson was big in his day, and he's being republished. Randall Garret's alternate universe Lord Darcy books are wonderful. How much I read (incl. rereading) depends on too many variables to be worth reporting. Is the weather nice for gardening? Do I have to take my younger son (constant supervision) someplace? Am I excited about a new needlework project? Lately it's been about a book a day. Mia From to_nige at mail.com Wed Jul 17 15:29:35 2002 From: to_nige at mail.com (Nigel Leslie) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 08:29:35 +1000 Subject: Dragaera subscriber list References: <20020717221701.8939.qmail@dd-b.net> Message-ID: <004f01c22de1$6f690400$380ea8c0@local.secureinteractive.com> Why are the emails of the subscriber list being sent around?? This is exactly how spam-lists are created in the first place! ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 8:17 AM Subject: Dragaera subscriber list <--SNIP--> From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Jul 17 15:43:07 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 17:43:07 -0500 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <3D35EDAA.1A20506B@attbi.com> References: <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> <20020717213834.GB20035@infodancer.org> <3D35EDAA.1A20506B@attbi.com> Message-ID: <20020717224307.GB20234@infodancer.org> On Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 05:20:26PM -0500, Mia McDavid wrote: > Matthew Hunteer said: > > > (Hmm. I wonder, would it be abusing the authorial metaphor too > much if the list collectively came up with some interview > questions for Vlad the next time he's caught with a tape > recorder?) > > Something I hope will be answered someday . . . > Where the *hell* did Vlad *get* the tape recorder??? >From Steve, of course. You would do better asking, "How did Steve get to Dragaera?" -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From Raellew at aol.com Wed Jul 17 16:11:25 2002 From: Raellew at aol.com (Raellew at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 19:11:25 EDT Subject: the next vlad book? Message-ID: <121.14060776.2a67539d@aol.com> In a message dated 7/17/02, Thomas Yan writes: Gaertk at aol.com writes: >> >> Be patient, Brust is worth the wait. [...] >-snip- > >How many books do you all read anyway? I guess I average about one >book per week, including rereading books. In 1999, I read about 80 >books, but that was unusually high for me. Varies. A lot. I read none in January (how did that happen?) and 20 in June. Lately it's a book every day or two. Last year was 100, total. Rae From Raellew at aol.com Wed Jul 17 16:20:28 2002 From: Raellew at aol.com (Raellew at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 19:20:28 EDT Subject: the next vlad book? Message-ID: In a message dated 7/17/02, Matthew Hunter writes: On Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 05:20:26PM -0500, Mia McDavid wrote: Matthew Hunter said: >>> >>> (Hmm. I wonder, would it be abusing the authorial metaphor too >>> much if the list collectively came up with some interview >>> questions for Vlad the next time he's caught with a tape >>> recorder?) >> >> Something I hope will be answered someday . . . >> Where the *hell* did Vlad *get* the tape recorder??? > >From Steve, of course. > >You would do better asking, "How did Steve get to Dragaera?" Hitched a ride with Devera? Rae From tyan at twcny.rr.com Wed Jul 17 16:54:39 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: 17 Jul 2002 19:54:39 -0400 Subject: That was really Devera [the next vlad book?] In-Reply-To: Raellew@aol.com's message of "Wed, 17 Jul 2002 19:20:28 EDT" References: Message-ID: Raellew at aol.com writes: -context snipped by tky- > Hitched a ride with Devera? In _Komarr_ by Bujold, there's a throwaway reference to a young girl that Miles hires. Mike Schilling on RASFW remarked that he's decided to believe that was Devera. Hee. - tky From andrew at networkharmoni.com.au Wed Jul 17 17:42:08 2002 From: andrew at networkharmoni.com.au (Andrew Bailey) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 08:42:08 +0800 Subject: Kelly (long) was Re: the next vlad book? References: <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> <20020717213834.GB20035@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <3D360EE0.3060001@networkharmoni.com.au> Matthew Hunter wrote: -snip- > > Steve, I'm curious how much you agree with Kelly vs Vlad in terms > of the "movement". In particular, Vlad is pretty harsh with some > of his accusations, and there seems to be some truth to his > comments about the "movement" not caring about individuals -- > especially when viewed together with historical implementations > of similar philosophies. > > (Plus, I'd like to share a chuckle at the exchange between > Noish-pa and Vlad: > "What is the word?" > "Friends? Compatriots?" > clearly a reference to "Comrades!") > Is that the cue for my anti-kelly rant? Of all the characters in the books Kelly is the one most in need of a good slapping. Why? Well he is a well read, highly intelligent individual who understands social systems quite well, but for some reason is completely unable to see why his marxist revolution is doomed to failure. Doomed? Yes. Basically for two reasons, they are out resourced, and, more importantly, the do not have a stanglehold on providing the means of production. If it came down to a revolt, I really don't think that Kelly's gang stand a chance. Fundamentally thay lack the magical resources to seriously challenge the current hierarchy. Yes they "Held" south adhrilanka. But when they come up against a Dragon Army, with Sethra, Morrolan , Aliera and a cohort of Athyra battle wizards how long do you give them? Whe have seen in Dragon how nessacary it is to have your own wizards to defend, lest you get slaughtered. And Morralan, Aleria et al are going to be Untouchable by your average Tekla, unless someone takes down there protective spell. It will be like Infrantry armed with swords taking on tanks. On the meta-physical side of things. In order to achieve Kellys stated goal of taking down the cycle he will have to, IMHO, attack on both the mudane and meta-physical levels. ( I belive that he may have to send people through the paths of the dead to physically destroy the cycle there, though this is just conjecture ). Anyway the gods are clearly against him, well at least some of them. Finally, there is Zerika. At the moment, or at least as far as we know, I feel she has prevented a complete slaughter of the rebels, firstly cause it would disrupt the empire far too much and secondly because I don't think she wants to kill a lot of people ( Kelly I believe does not seem to share that concern ). But at the end of the day, if the empire is threatened, she will and she has the orb. This is something that I have often considered. How powerful is the orb. We know that every citizen of Dragaera has a link to the Orb, Vlad uses it to tell the time, and it is also the source of power for sorcery. But the question is if every citizen can access the Ord, can that link operate in reverse, and what exactly can it do? How could that link be used by the establishment to defeat the revolution. Of course they could sever there links to the Orb, but that puts them at a severe disadvantage magically. Secondly, and this is much more interesting, lets look at the social situation in Dragaera it self. We are post Integrum, when magic is at the strongest it has ever been. Sorcerers, even those that aren't particalary good, can teleport them selves arround, a thing that even great wizards did not seemed to achive before, or if they did they weren't telling :). Revivication is possible, something that seems to have been unthought of before. So how does this effect the role of the working class, Tekla and Eastener. In brief , Welcome to the Industrial Revelotion. Even Kelly realises this. We see that people are becoming unemployed, more and more, in the services industry as the Middle/Higher classes choose to use magic rather than servants to do things. So what would happen if there was a revolt. If the crops needed to be delivered or harvested and the traditional suppliers of that labour, refused or weren't there to do it. Would this accellerate the erosion of the working classes traditional roles in society. And also would it generate a lack of trust between classes that could cause the Upper classes to prefer to use magic rather than servants out of distrust, this has happened before ( see TPG ), except without the magic bit, but back then they couldn't replace the Tekla on the farms and in most of the industry, now I believe they can, and in some ways this is already happening. All I can see happening is Kelly accellerating the Teklas displacement >from they traditional occupations in the empire and getting a lot of people dead, unless he creates an alliance with some other, better resourced, external power. The Eastern Kingdoms, maybe, but I can't see Feudal lords being all too keen on Kelly's republic either, after all it might give their subjects ideas. The Jenoine? He wouldn't, would he? Anyways sorry for the long rant, but he profoundly irritates me. Andrew. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jul 17 18:21:23 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 18:21:23 -0700 Subject: That was really Devera [the next vlad book?] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020717182038.00ab6970@pop3.lvcm.com> At 07:54 PM 7/17/2002 -0400, Thomas Yan wrote: >In _Komarr_ by Bujold, there's a throwaway reference to a young girl >that Miles hires. Mike Schilling on RASFW remarked that he's decided >to believe that was Devera. I think I might have to decide the same thing. :-) From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jul 17 18:23:12 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 18:23:12 -0700 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <20020717173902.6BC9726E25@boredom.ennui.org> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020717182228.00ac1c80@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:39 AM 7/17/2002 -0700, figmentality wrote: >Hm, does Steven have a favorite online bookstore we could support? No, but thanks for asking. I have used several, will continue to use them as needed, and don't much like any of them. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jul 17 18:28:31 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 18:28:31 -0700 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020717182401.00ab61b0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 04:36 PM 7/17/2002 -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >Here's some other fantasy authors I enjoy: Tolkien, >Pratchett, Robin Hobb (aka Megan Lindholm), Jo Walton, >Diane Duane, and GRR Martin. Good list! Permit me to add, if you haven't read them: Mark Twain, Alexandre Dumas, Pamela Dean, Lois Bujold, Neil Gaiman, Emma Bull, Will Shetterly, Tim Powers, Gene Wolfe, Glen Cook, Jane Yolen, and of course Roger Zelazny. And permit me to put in a special recommendation for the Aubrey/Maturin books of Patrick O'Brian, which are...well...just read them. The first one is called _Master and Commander_. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jul 17 18:33:41 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 18:33:41 -0700 Subject: the next Vlad book? In-Reply-To: <20020717213834.GB20035@infodancer.org> References: <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020717182931.02f02d90@pop3.lvcm.com> At 04:38 PM 7/17/2002 -0500, Matthew Hunter wrote: >Steve, I'm curious how much you agree with Kelly vs Vlad in terms >of the "movement". Interesting question. In brief, I don't hate Kelly nearly as much as Vlad does, but I do not believe that one can transfer a political system from one economic structure to another as he is attempting to do. To the extent that a "Marxist" theory (to be more precise, a scientific approach to ending class conflict) could ever be valid on Dragaera, it has to occur organically, and it is Millennia away at best. Of course, I might be wrong. >(Plus, I'd like to share a chuckle at the exchange between >Noish-pa and Vlad: >"What is the word?" >"Friends? Compatriots?" >clearly a reference to "Comrades!") Thanks for catching that. :-) >(Hmm. I wonder, would it be abusing the authorial metaphor too >much if the list collectively came up with some interview >questions for Vlad the next time he's caught with a tape >recorder?) I'd enjoy that. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jul 17 18:35:48 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 18:35:48 -0700 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <20020717224307.GB20234@infodancer.org> References: <3D35EDAA.1A20506B@attbi.com> <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> <20020717213834.GB20035@infodancer.org> <3D35EDAA.1A20506B@attbi.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020717183458.02f04020@pop3.lvcm.com> At 05:43 PM 7/17/2002 -0500, Matthew Hunter wrote: >You would do better asking, "How did Steve get to Dragaera?" My Stupid Brown Dog got out one day, and I was following him trying to get him back to the yard and just ended up there. Good thing I had my collating rack with me... From ijamie at sympatico.ca Wed Jul 17 18:48:38 2002 From: ijamie at sympatico.ca (Ian sympatico) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 21:48:38 -0400 Subject: the next vlad book? References: <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> <15669.58791.198412.512656@eris.io.com> <3D35EFBF.A257F302@attbi.com> Message-ID: <002901c22dfd$3d680c00$6c845f41@idirect.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mia McDavid" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 6:29 PM Subject: Re: the next vlad book? > Has anybody mentioned David Weber? Of course, if you haven't already, > there's the classics--Asimov, Anderson, Boucher, Niven, Pournelle, > Zelazney. If anyone has not read Zelazny yet I don't know why they are on this list! > Neal Stephenson is a hell of a good ride. I'm sure I've > missed/forgotten a lot. Gordy Dickson was big in his day, and he's > being republished. Randall Garret's alternate universe Lord Darcy books > are wonderful. Neal Stephenson's first book the Diamond Age was fantastic. His second book was not bad, can't remember the name. His last book Cryptonomicron (spelling?) I couldn't get through. Randall Garrett's Gandalara Cycle was very good. Ian From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Jul 17 18:58:28 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 17 Jul 2002 20:58:28 -0500 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: References: <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: Thomas Yan writes: > How many books do you all read anyway? I guess I average about one > book per week, including rereading books. In 1999, I read about 80 > books, but that was unusually high for me. About 140 according to my booklog (a bit fewer than that, but it's slightly over a year old and has 140 books on it, including some rereads). (url in sig) -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Jul 17 19:00:29 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 17 Jul 2002 21:00:29 -0500 Subject: Dragaera subscriber list In-Reply-To: <004f01c22de1$6f690400$380ea8c0@local.secureinteractive.com> References: <20020717221701.8939.qmail@dd-b.net> <004f01c22de1$6f690400$380ea8c0@local.secureinteractive.com> Message-ID: "Nigel Leslie" writes: > Why are the emails of the subscriber list being sent around?? > This is exactly how spam-lists are created in the first place! I already replied to you privately but didn't notice your message had also gone to the list. Briefly, it's our policy to be open, and that policy is announced in the rules as given on the web page and as mailed to people when they sign up, so it should be no surprise. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From Starshadw at aol.com Wed Jul 17 19:36:04 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:36:04 EDT Subject: the next vlad book? Message-ID: In a message dated 7/17/2002 7:58:41 PM Mountain Daylight Time, dd-b at dd-b.net writes: > About 140 according to my booklog (a bit fewer than that, but it's > slightly over a year old and has 140 books on it, including some > rereads). (url in sig) I lost count years ago. I couldn't even begin to guess how many books I've read. And we don't even want to talk about all of the many books I re-read. Stacy From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Jul 17 19:34:44 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 21:34:44 -0500 Subject: Kelly (long) was Re: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <3D360EE0.3060001@networkharmoni.com.au> References: <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> <20020717213834.GB20035@infodancer.org> <3D360EE0.3060001@networkharmoni.com.au> Message-ID: <20020718023444.GA27548@infodancer.org> On Thu, Jul 18, 2002 at 08:42:08AM +0800, Andrew Bailey wrote: > Is that the cue for my anti-kelly rant? I suppose it'll do... > Of all the characters in the books Kelly is the one most in need of a > good slapping. He's not the only candidate, to be sure... > Why? Well he is a well read, highly intelligent individual who > understands social systems quite well, but for some reason is completely > unable to see why his marxist revolution is doomed to failure. He's a well-read, highly-intelligent ideologue. This attitude tends to breed an inability to consider the flaws in your own ideas, while exacerbating the flaws in others. I think perhaps Kelly understands this -- he knows that he needs the support of the people in the country, not just the city. And the people in the country are still existing in a completely agricultural economic model. They produce surplus, to be sure, but if they stop producing, they starve. As such, initially his goals were limited. Clean up the section of town he was living in, basically, and acquire enough of a voice in the Empire to improve the conditions of his people in small ways. But when the "System" (ie, the Jhereg) took offense at this, his political philosophy forced him to escalate. Note that his demands didn't change -- investigate the killings, not "let us rule the empire". But given that he felt the "system" was opposing him, he had to fight the system, not the individuals. He is, at least, consistent in his blindness. > Doomed? Yes. Basically for two reasons, they are out resourced, and, > more importantly, the do not have a stanglehold on providing the means > of production. Indeed. > If it came down to a revolt, I really don't think that Kelly's gang > stand a chance. Fundamentally thay lack the magical resources to > seriously challenge the current hierarchy. Yes they "Held" south > adhrilanka. But when they come up against a Dragon Army, with Sethra, > Morrolan , Aliera and a cohort of Athyra battle wizards how long do you > give them? 30 seconds or so. > Whe have seen in Dragon how nessacary it is to have your own > wizards to defend, lest you get slaughtered. And Morralan, Aleria et al > are going to be Untouchable by your average Tekla, unless someone takes > down there protective spell. It will be like Infrantry armed with swords > taking on tanks. Little different from the armored nobility in the medieval period -- except spells are used instead of clumsy, weighty armor. > On the meta-physical side of things. In order to achieve Kellys stated > goal of taking down the cycle he will have to, IMHO, attack on both the > mudane and meta-physical levels. ( I belive that he may have to send > people through the paths of the dead to physically destroy the cycle > there, though this is just conjecture ). Anyway the gods are clearly > against him, well at least some of them. I am not sure if this would be necessary or not, but I would be very interested in seeing the consequences of success. How does the cycle keep the rule of the Empire in check? Is it merely a function of which house can control the Orb? (If everyone ignored the person with the Orb, instead of treating them as the Emperor, what happens?) > This is something that I have often considered. How powerful is the orb. > We know that every citizen of Dragaera has a link to the Orb, Vlad uses > it to tell the time, and it is also the source of power for sorcery. > But the question is if every citizen can access the Ord, can that link > operate in reverse, and what exactly can it do? How could that link be > used by the establishment to defeat the revolution. Of course they could > sever there links to the Orb, but that puts them at a severe > disadvantage magically. Clearly the link can operate in reverse -- consider the ability of every citizen to petition the Empress directly, and the consequences of doing so over a trivial matter. However, this is a red herring -- 90% of Kelly's forces would not have such a link or would be unable to derive significant benefits from it, as far as I can tell. Vlad has a link because he is Jhereg nobility; it does not appear to be the default for Easterners. And few Teckla are capable of more than mundane sorcery. We have seen elsewhere that the Orb is a Great Weapon, or of a power level on a similar scale. What's interesting is that we don't know what that means exactly. We know some of the properties of a Great Weapon, but not much about their powers other than being tied to their wielders, able to kill Gods, and drinking the souls of their victims. (I wonder if the Orb could drink the soul of any citizen of the Empire?) > All I can see happening is Kelly accellerating the Teklas displacement > from they traditional occupations in the empire and getting a lot of > people dead, unless he creates an alliance with some other, better > resourced, external power. The Eastern Kingdoms, maybe, but I can't see > Feudal lords being all too keen on Kelly's republic either, after all it > might give their subjects ideas. The Jenoine? He wouldn't, would he? I suspect he might, if given the chance, mainly because he would be too focused on opposing the Empire to carefully consider his allies. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From pendragon at vaxer.net Wed Jul 17 19:41:34 2002 From: pendragon at vaxer.net (A Knight in White Satin) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:41:34 -0400 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <002901c22dfd$3d680c00$6c845f41@idirect.com> References: <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> <15669.58791.198412.512656@eris.io.com> <3D35EFBF.A257F302@attbi.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20020717223829.00b77b90@maple.vaxer.net> At 09:48 PM 7/17/2002, "Ian Sympatico" wrote: >Neal Stephenson's first book the Diamond Age was fantastic. His second book Err... his .first. book was "The Big U". Then _Zodiac_ and _Snow Crash_. _Diamond Age_ doesn't show up until 1995. Just picking a nit. Pendoug -- working on a Neverwinter Nights campaign loosely based on Dragaera (now how do I make the DM's avatar be the small girl model...) -- First they came for the fourth amendment, and I didn't speak because I wasn't a drug dealer. Then they came for the fifth, and I didn't speak up because I was innocent. Then they came for the second, and I didn't speak up because I didn't own a gun. Then they came for the first, and I couldn't speak. From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Jul 17 20:02:32 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 17 Jul 2002 22:02:32 -0500 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Starshadw at aol.com writes: > In a message dated 7/17/2002 7:58:41 PM Mountain Daylight Time, dd-b at dd-b.net > writes: > > > > About 140 according to my booklog (a bit fewer than that, but it's > > slightly over a year old and has 140 books on it, including some > > rereads). (url in sig) > > I lost count years ago. I couldn't even begin to guess how many books I've > read. And we don't even want to talk about all of the many books I re-read. Maybe 20 years from now I'll actually know how many I read over the last 20 years. But probably not. Still, I'm having fun doing the book log for now. Notice how many of the things in my log are flagged as rereads. I do that a *lot*. And I've read several books more than once just in that year. I think I actually read one of them 4 times, but couldn't bring myself to write up all of them in the log. That's unusual, though -- a new Doc Smith book. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From Starshadw at aol.com Wed Jul 17 20:09:30 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 23:09:30 EDT Subject: Books we've read (was: the next vlad book?) Message-ID: <85.1e5e5991.2a678b6a@aol.com> Out of curiosity, am I the only one who still owns copies of AND reads books I loved as a child? Books which are found in the young adult section? I just picked up a new one today that I saw it and smiled because I remembered reading it so many years ago. Stacy From pddb at demesne.com Wed Jul 17 20:13:24 2002 From: pddb at demesne.com (pddb at demesne.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:13:24 -0500 Subject: Books we've read (was: the next vlad book?) In-Reply-To: <85.1e5e5991.2a678b6a@aol.com>; from Starshadw@aol.com on Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 11:09:30PM -0400 References: <85.1e5e5991.2a678b6a@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020717221324.B22797@gw.dd-b.net> On Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 11:09:30PM -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > Out of curiosity, am I the only one who still owns copies of AND reads books > I loved as a child? Books which are found in the young adult section? I > just picked up a new one today that I saw it and smiled because I remembered > reading it so many years ago. Oh, not at all. I go right through my battered collection of Louisa May Alcott from time to time, and the Harriet the Spy books. I even read YA books for the first time as an adult. I missed out on Zilpha Keatley Snyder and E.L. Koenigsberg and even L.M. Montgomery when I was actually a kid, but I reread them all now. And Katherine Paterson. I reread Madeleine L'Engle regularly too, although she does sometimes irritate me. And I was thrilled to find Barbara Sleigh's two Carbonel books on the Book Boat in Greenwich when I was in college. I thought that after I left the elementary school library where I found them I would never see them again, but now I own them. And David and I have copies of the Mushroom Planet books, too, and reread them with great pleasure. -- Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet (pddb at demesne.com) "I will open my heart to a blank page and interview the witnesses." John M. Ford, "Shared World" From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Jul 17 20:11:34 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:11:34 -0500 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020717182931.02f02d90@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020717182931.02f02d90@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <20020718031134.GB27548@infodancer.org> On Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 06:33:41PM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: > >(Hmm. I wonder, would it be abusing the authorial metaphor too > >much if the list collectively came up with some interview > >questions for Vlad the next time he's caught with a tape > >recorder?) > I'd enjoy that. Hmm, this seems promising. So... what does the world want to know about Vlad? Steve, would you prefer to take them as they come, or should I compile a list and get people to vote on questions to include or the like? Warning... spoilers below. My motivations in coming up with these questions are primarily to provide Vlad the chance to give interesting answers. Bear that in mind. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Some ideas to start with: 0) Is this thing on? Testing, testing, 1 2 3... 1) You go through life-threatening adventures on a regular basis, while the tales of your exploits are presented to others as witty entertainment, even a measure of comedy. Does this bother you? Do you have anything to say, directly, to those people who are following your adventures as an evening's passtime? Are you comfortable existing as a role-model for a generation of foreign children? 2) What *really* happened to your finger? 3) No, no, the TRUTH about your finger? 4) How do you feel about being a fa-... oh, no, that would be rude. 5) Are you aware that your "publisher" (or perhaps publicist?) is working with another individual, one "Paarfi", whose tales are in direct competition with yours? (If so, is Paarfi perhaps slated for elimination? ;)) 6) In some of your tales, you have mentioned suspicions that your memory had been altered at some point. You have so far failed to follow up on these allegations. Did it slip your mind? 7) There are a few scenes (before you met Cawti) which could be read to imply a certain amount of romantic tension between yourself and Kiera. Any comment? 8) Following your realization concerning Kiera and Sethra, have you given any further thought to the events early in your life which brought you into contact with Sethra, Morrolan, et al? 9) Some of your fans have speculated that Kragar is Mario. Does this speculation... concern you in any way? 10) There have been accusations that you are an unreliable narrator, and occasionally shade the truth in your favor. Any comment? 11) This next question is for the reptiles. Is Vlad really as smart as he thinks he is? -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From Starshadw at aol.com Wed Jul 17 20:23:59 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 23:23:59 EDT Subject: Vlad Interview Questions Message-ID: <167.10d12a6b.2a678ecf@aol.com> In a message dated 7/17/2002 9:17:50 PM Mountain Daylight Time, matthew at infodancer.org writes: > 7) There are a few scenes (before you met Cawti) which could be > read to imply a certain amount of romantic tension between > yourself and Kiera. Any comment? > > 8) Following your realization concerning Kiera and Sethra, have > you given any further thought to the events early in your life > which brought you into contact with Sethra, Morrolan, et al? And having come to said realization, how did that make you feel about the certain amount of romantic tension? (Just how dead and how UNdead, is she???) From pendragon at vaxer.net Wed Jul 17 20:24:06 2002 From: pendragon at vaxer.net (A Knight in White Satin) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 23:24:06 -0400 Subject: Books we've read (was: the next vlad book?) In-Reply-To: <85.1e5e5991.2a678b6a@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20020717231722.022f0e80@maple.vaxer.net> At 11:09 PM 7/17/2002, Starshadow wrote: >Out of curiosity, am I the only one who still owns copies of AND reads books Nope. I'll re-read my Heinlein juveniles. Or the lighter Asmiov stuff. I'll presume the spirit of your question doesn't stretch to "reads books" including "to your own kids"--the not-too-far-off fate of the _Little House_ series. Or Madeline L'Engel's stuff. (For some reason, I find myself .really. looking forward to reading _A Wrinkle in Time_ to Elizabeth in another few years. Unless she takes it from me to read herself, that is.) Pendoug -- Bones? -- First they came for the fourth amendment, and I didn't speak because I wasn't a drug dealer. Then they came for the fifth, and I didn't speak up because I was innocent. Then they came for the second, and I didn't speak up because I didn't own a gun. Then they came for the first, and I couldn't speak. From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Jul 17 20:23:37 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:23:37 -0500 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions In-Reply-To: <167.10d12a6b.2a678ecf@aol.com> References: <167.10d12a6b.2a678ecf@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020718032337.GC27548@infodancer.org> While I did argue against spoilerspace on this list, the below should probably be protected from casual browsing anyway -- at least until we have a firm decision not to. I would hate to spoil someone who was counting on not being spoiled but thought this list was safe. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . On Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 11:23:59PM -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/17/2002 9:17:50 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > matthew at infodancer.org writes: > > 7) There are a few scenes (before you met Cawti) which could be > > read to imply a certain amount of romantic tension between > > yourself and Kiera. Any comment? > > > > 8) Following your realization concerning Kiera and Sethra, have > > you given any further thought to the events early in your life > > which brought you into contact with Sethra, Morrolan, et al? > > And having come to said realization, how did that make you feel about the > certain amount of romantic tension? (Just how dead and how UNdead, is she???) *sniff* I asked already by implication, no need to make it obvious[0]. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) [0]: With a very large smile. From andrew at networkharmoni.com.au Wed Jul 17 20:31:10 2002 From: andrew at networkharmoni.com.au (Andrew Bailey) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:31:10 +0800 Subject: Kelly (long) was Re: the next vlad book? References: <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> <20020717213834.GB20035@infodancer.org> <3D360EE0.3060001@networkharmoni.com.au> <20020718023444.GA27548@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <3D36367E.1080400@networkharmoni.com.au> Matthew Hunter wrote: >>Of all the characters in the books Kelly is the one most in need of a >>good slapping. > > > He's not the only candidate, to be sure... > Very true, Vlad on occasion, perhaps. > > He's a well-read, highly-intelligent ideologue. This attitude > tends to breed an inability to consider the flaws in your own > ideas, while exacerbating the flaws in others. > > I think perhaps Kelly understands this -- he knows that he needs > the support of the people in the country, not just the city. And > the people in the country are still existing in a completely > agricultural economic model. They produce surplus, to be sure, > but if they stop producing, they starve. > > As such, initially his goals were limited. Clean up the section > of town he was living in, basically, and acquire enough of a > voice in the Empire to improve the conditions of his people in > small ways. > > But when the "System" (ie, the Jhereg) took offense at this, his > political philosophy forced him to escalate. Note that his > demands didn't change -- investigate the killings, not "let us > rule the empire". But given that he felt the "system" was > opposing him, he had to fight the system, not the individuals. > He is, at least, consistent in his blindness. > I am pretty sure that Kelly at least at one point, stated to Vlad that the ultimate point was to break the cycle. >>Whe have seen in Dragon how nessacary it is to have your own >>wizards to defend, lest you get slaughtered. And Morralan, Aleria et al >>are going to be Untouchable by your average Tekla, unless someone takes >>down there protective spell. It will be like Infrantry armed with swords >>taking on tanks. > > > Little different from the armored nobility in the medieval period > -- except spells are used instead of clumsy, weighty armor. > And they have far more firepower, A knight can only really be expected to kill one peasent at a time, I suspect that Warrior-Wizards are much more desctructive that that. > > > I am not sure if this would be necessary or not, but I would be > very interested in seeing the consequences of success. How does > the cycle keep the rule of the Empire in check? Is it merely a > function of which house can control the Orb? > > > (If everyone ignored the person with the Orb, instead of treating > them as the Emperor, what happens?) > You end up with a lesser sea of chaos :) But seriously, I feel that the manifestation of the cycle in the Halls of judgement reflect events that occur on the Mudane plane, and it is believed that the reverse is true. I kinda think it that in order to destroy the cycle some cataclysmic event must occur in halls of judgement, to relect the changes on the mundane plane. > > Clearly the link can operate in reverse -- consider the ability > of every citizen to petition the Empress directly, and the > consequences of doing so over a trivial matter. > > However, this is a red herring -- 90% of Kelly's forces would not > have such a link or would be unable to derive significant > benefits from it, as far as I can tell. Vlad has a link because > he is Jhereg nobility; it does not appear to be the default for > Easterners. And few Teckla are capable of more than mundane > sorcery. > Actually its stated somewhere that in order to get a link to the orb you have to either join the Tekla or buy a title in the Jehreg. If its not stated explictly its pretty heavily implied that ALL Citizens have a link to the Orb. It just a matter of whether The Emperor can affect more than one person simutaniously. Of course there are ways of severing your link, but that just leaves you with less resources. Even just having a central time server can be very useful in an inserrection. > >>All I can see happening is Kelly accellerating the Teklas displacement >>from they traditional occupations in the empire and getting a lot of >>people dead, unless he creates an alliance with some other, better >>resourced, external power. The Eastern Kingdoms, maybe, but I can't see >>Feudal lords being all too keen on Kelly's republic either, after all it >>might give their subjects ideas. The Jenoine? He wouldn't, would he? > > > I suspect he might, if given the chance, mainly because he would > be too focused on opposing the Empire to carefully consider his > allies. > Yes, or he might decide to start investigating pre-empire sorcery. The Author aslo wrote: > At 04:38 PM 7/17/2002 -0500, Matthew Hunter wrote: > >> Steve, I'm curious how much you agree with Kelly vs Vlad in terms >> of the "movement". > >Interesting question. In brief, I don't hate Kelly nearly as much as >Vlad does, but I do not believe that one can transfer a political system >from one economic structure to another as he is attempting to do. To the >extent that a "Marxist" theory (to be more precise, a scientific approach >to ending class conflict) could ever be valid on Dragaera, it has to occur >organically, and it is Millennia away at best. > > Of course, I might be wrong. > Well thats putting it much better than I did. *sigh*. Andrew. From Starshadw at aol.com Wed Jul 17 20:33:25 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 23:33:25 EDT Subject: Books we've read (was: the next vlad book?) Message-ID: In a message dated 7/17/2002 9:24:25 PM Mountain Daylight Time, pendragon at vaxer.net writes: > Nope. I'll re-read my Heinlein juveniles. Or the lighter Asmiov stuff. > I'll > presume the spirit of your question doesn't stretch to "reads books" > including > "to your own kids"--the not-too-far-off fate of the _Little House_ series. > Or > Madeline L'Engel's stuff. (For some reason, I find myself .really. looking > forward to reading _A Wrinkle in Time_ to Elizabeth in another few > years. Unless > she takes it from me to read herself, that is.) I'm all for reading to your kids. I'm all for reading to each other, period. In fact, I might add that to my "The next time I have a significant other, he has to like to do this" list. Books I have (or am in the process of attempting to find again): The Changeover Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of Nimh The Egypt Game The Witches of Worm (by the same author as TEG, above) L'Engle's books And another book question: Do you have "comfort" books? Sometimes, if I'm having trouble sleeping because I'm nervous or stressed or frightened, or if I'm not feeling well, or am going through one of my melancholies, I have books that I can go and grab off the bookshelf and sit down and read and they make me feel a little better. Mine are all easy reads - in fact, the L'Engle books and Nimh are probably some of my comfort books. Stacy From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Jul 17 20:30:25 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:30:25 -0500 Subject: Kelly (long) was Re: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <3D36367E.1080400@networkharmoni.com.au> References: <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> <20020717213834.GB20035@infodancer.org> <3D360EE0.3060001@networkharmoni.com.au> <20020718023444.GA27548@infodancer.org> <3D36367E.1080400@networkharmoni.com.au> Message-ID: <20020718033025.GD27548@infodancer.org> On Thu, Jul 18, 2002 at 11:31:10AM +0800, Andrew Bailey wrote: > Matthew Hunter wrote: > >But when the "System" (ie, the Jhereg) took offense at this, his > >political philosophy forced him to escalate. Note that his > >demands didn't change -- investigate the killings, not "let us > >rule the empire". But given that he felt the "system" was > >opposing him, he had to fight the system, not the individuals. > >He is, at least, consistent in his blindness. > I am pretty sure that Kelly at least at one point, stated to Vlad > that the ultimate point was to break the cycle. Ultimately? Sure. But not anytime soon, and I think not in Kelly's lifetime (as an Easterner). > >>Whe have seen in Dragon how nessacary it is to have your own > >>wizards to defend, lest you get slaughtered. And Morralan, Aleria et al > >>are going to be Untouchable by your average Tekla, unless someone takes > >>down there protective spell. It will be like Infrantry armed with swords > >>taking on tanks. > >Little different from the armored nobility in the medieval period > >-- except spells are used instead of clumsy, weighty armor. > And they have far more firepower, A knight can only really be expected > to kill one peasent at a time, I suspect that Warrior-Wizards are much > more desctructive that that. Indeed. > >I am not sure if this would be necessary or not, but I would be > >very interested in seeing the consequences of success. How does > >the cycle keep the rule of the Empire in check? Is it merely a > >function of which house can control the Orb? > > > > > >(If everyone ignored the person with the Orb, instead of treating > >them as the Emperor, what happens?) > > > > You end up with a lesser sea of chaos :) > > But seriously, I feel that the manifestation of the cycle in the Halls > of judgement reflect events that occur on the Mudane plane, and it is > believed that the reverse is true. I kinda think it that in order to > destroy the cycle some cataclysmic event must occur in halls of > judgement, to relect the changes on the mundane plane. > > >Clearly the link can operate in reverse -- consider the ability > >of every citizen to petition the Empress directly, and the > >consequences of doing so over a trivial matter. > > > >However, this is a red herring -- 90% of Kelly's forces would not > >have such a link or would be unable to derive significant > >benefits from it, as far as I can tell. Vlad has a link because > >he is Jhereg nobility; it does not appear to be the default for > >Easterners. And few Teckla are capable of more than mundane > >sorcery. > > > > Actually its stated somewhere that in order to get a link to the orb you > have to either join the Tekla or buy a title in the Jehreg. If its not > stated explictly its pretty heavily implied that ALL Citizens have a > link to the Orb. I agree; all citizens do. But few Teckla can use it, and Easterners may not have it at all (with a few exceptions), thus making its loss rather less of a sacrifice. > It just a matter of whether The Emperor can affect more > than one person simutaniously. Of course there are ways of severing your > link, but that just leaves you with less resources. Even just having a > central time server can be very useful in an inserrection. Well, if it's a choice between immolation on the Emperor's schedule, and doing without a central time server... > >I suspect he might, if given the chance, mainly because he would > >be too focused on opposing the Empire to carefully consider his > >allies. > Yes, or he might decide to start investigating pre-empire sorcery. Assuming he would even know of it, I suspect his ideology would prevent him from depending on it. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From sraun at fireopal.org Wed Jul 17 20:41:12 2002 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:41:12 -0500 Subject: Kelly (long) was Re: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <20020718023444.GA27548@infodancer.org> References: <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> <20020717213834.GB20035@infodancer.org> <3D360EE0.3060001@networkharmoni.com.au> <20020718023444.GA27548@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20020718034112.GE18051@fireopal.org> On Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 09:34:44PM -0500, Matthew Hunter wrote: > (If everyone ignored the person with the Orb, instead of treating > them as the Emperor, what happens?) Do we have any reason to believe that the Emperor CANNOT arbitrarily break someone else's link to the Orb? Seems to be a logical capability to me. I think that, when sorcery stopped working, people would change their mind about who was Emperor. He controls a rather significant resource. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org From yhcrana13 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 17 20:55:57 2002 From: yhcrana13 at hotmail.com (A. Nonymous) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:55:57 -0500 Subject: Books we've read (was: the next vlad book?) Message-ID: >The Changeover >Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of Nimh >The Egypt Game >The Witches of Worm (by the same author as TEG, above) >L'Engle's books These are all great reads, along with: >From the Mixed Up Files of Ms. Basil E. Frankweiler The Boy Who Reversed Himself The Westing Game The Headless Cupid This has brought up a lot of memories, I might have to dig into my storage boxes and re-read some of these. Josh Collins The Guide is definitive. Reality is frequently inaccurate. (Douglas Adams - The Restaurant at the End of the Universe) yhcrana13 at hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Wed Jul 17 21:12:10 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 23:12:10 -0500 Subject: Books we've read (was: the next vlad book?) References: <85.1e5e5991.2a678b6a@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D364019.A4B6460@attbi.com> Books we've loved . . . I still like things like Black Beauty and the Kjellgard animal books and so forth. I came to find Oz incredibly annoying, because my older son was into it, and it does *not* age well. I *do* read a lot of *current* YA stuff--Madeline L'Engle, Diane Duane's Wizard series, Tamora Pierce's fantasies . . . for both stuff in adult SF and YA, I will now say to my son: "OK, I'm willing to pay for it, but then I get to read it first. You want to pay for the privelege instead?" Mia From lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com Wed Jul 17 21:10:16 2002 From: lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com (Lowki Liesmith) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 00:10:16 -0400 Subject: Books we've read (was: the next vlad book?) Message-ID: I don't think so. I have been reading forgotten realms books and raven loft since I was twelve. and I have a copy of most of the ones I had read. maybe because I was hooked at a young age I am desperatly awaiting the next R. A. Salvatore book for the drow series. thae last one was disapointing but I'm hoping that the next will be better. but that is what got me interested in fantacy and if it wasn't for that I would have never come across Brust. by the way I was hoping that someone, particularly Steve, would answer my question from earlier. when will the next Vlad book come out? >From: Starshadw at aol.com >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Books we've read (was: the next vlad book?) >Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 23:09:30 EDT > >Out of curiosity, am I the only one who still owns copies of AND reads >books >I loved as a child? Books which are found in the young adult section? I >just picked up a new one today that I saw it and smiled because I >remembered >reading it so many years ago. > >Stacy _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From books at bofh.com Wed Jul 17 21:25:13 2002 From: books at bofh.com (books at bofh.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 21:25:13 -0700 (MST) Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 17 Jul 2002 21:48:38 -0400" <002901c22dfd$3d680c00$6c845f41@idirect.com> References: <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> <15669.58791.198412.512656@eris.io.com> <3D35EFBF.A257F302@attbi.com> Message-ID: <01KK7SCWEHIS000GU3@chud.net> >Neal Stephenson's first book the Diamond Age was fantastic. His second book >was not bad, can't remember the name. His last book Cryptonomicron >(spelling?) I couldn't get through. As someone else has pointed out, you've got the order pretty hosed up there. The fact that _Diamond Age_ was a pseudo-sequel was one clue. :) (I have also heard that _The Big U_ has been re-released, haven't looked for it yet). It also goes to show how different tastes are. I think _Cryptonomicon_ is his best book yet. Of course it helps being a fairly techical computer geek, so that some of the things are funny (Ordo, Finux) Right now, Steve and Neal Stephenson are my favorite authors, I would preorder anything from them, hardcover. -Jot From Alan.Halsted at mailus.com.au Wed Jul 17 21:25:38 2002 From: Alan.Halsted at mailus.com.au (Alan Halsted) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 14:25:38 +1000 Subject: Was fav books Message-ID: Thanks for the walk down my old bookshelves. There were some titles mentioned I forgot about years ago! Jeez i did a lot of reading... Cheers Alan ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please delete the e-mail & notify the system manager. We reserve the right to scan all e-mail traffic for restricted content and to monitor all e-mail traffic in general. The views and opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender and do not necessarily reflect the views of the organisation by whom they are employed, except where the sender expressly and with authority states them to be so. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been checked for the presence of computer viruses and script. We believe but do not warrant that this e-mail is free from viruses. Responsibility for virus checking rests entirely with the recipient. 5 at 356 ********************************************************************** From holden at salome.uchicago.edu Wed Jul 17 21:48:51 2002 From: holden at salome.uchicago.edu (Brad) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 23:48:51 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Kelly (long) was Re: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <20020718023444.GA27548@infodancer.org> (message from Matthew Hunter on Wed, 17 Jul 2002 21:34:44 -0500) References: <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> <20020717213834.GB20035@infodancer.org> <3D360EE0.3060001@networkharmoni.com.au> <20020718023444.GA27548@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <200207180448.g6I4mp625999@salome.uchicago.edu> >From: Matthew Hunter >On Thu, Jul 18, 2002 at 08:42:08AM +0800, Andrew Bailey wrote: >> Why? Well he is a well read, highly intelligent individual who >> understands social systems quite well, but for some reason is completely >> unable to see why his marxist revolution is doomed to failure. > >He's a well-read, highly-intelligent ideologue. This attitude >tends to breed an inability to consider the flaws in your own >ideas, while exacerbating the flaws in others. > I recently reread Teckla and Phoenix (in that order, skipping Taltos). Something really struck me this time. Kelly is, as a person, a real ass. He is egotistical and incredibly rude. He doesn't argue with you so much as batter you into insensibility. What I find fascinating about this is that he is the only character who espouses, in any great detail, the political philosophy of his movement (Natalia is actually a sympathetic characeter, despite all that she has gone through, but Vlad and her do not talk all that much). Now, as we all know, this philosophy is quite close to that of the author. I think it takes a certain amount guts to write a book where a complete twit is the closest voice to how one feels about an issue. The other intersting thing, to me, about Kelly is that Vlad's criticisms are correct. He really does not see people as individuals, but as parts of various the system or of the revolution. All philosophies, when taken to their extremes, see people this way. You could almost take the book as argument against Marxism but Kelly would be the same way regardless of what he was arguing for. Instead the books are more saying that for any group to succeed in changing the "system" they need to work with people as people, and not as classes. (To be honest, I have tried to find a less trite of saying this, and failed.) Of course, I might just be thinking a little much about all of this.... brad From holden at salome.uchicago.edu Wed Jul 17 21:55:26 2002 From: holden at salome.uchicago.edu (Brad) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 23:55:26 -0500 (CDT) Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020717182401.00ab61b0@pop3.lvcm.com> (message from Steven Brust on Wed, 17 Jul 2002 18:28:31 -0700) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020717182401.00ab61b0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <200207180455.g6I4tQr26012@salome.uchicago.edu> >From: Steven Brust >And permit me to put in a special recommendation for the Aubrey/Maturin >books of Patrick O'Brian, which are...well...just read them. The first one >is called _Master and Commander_. I second this nomination. They are wonderful, and there are like 18 of them so you can just keep reading and reading.... I also picked up a great collection of incredibly dark short stories by O'Brian called The Rendezvous and Other Stories. Little humor, different subject matter, it is good to see an author you enjoy stretch his legs, so to speak. brad From holden at salome.uchicago.edu Wed Jul 17 22:01:09 2002 From: holden at salome.uchicago.edu (Brad) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 00:01:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <01KK7SCWEHIS000GU3@chud.net> (books@bofh.com) References: <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> <15669.58791.198412.512656@eris.io.com> <3D35EFBF.A257F302@attbi.com> <01KK7SCWEHIS000GU3@chud.net> Message-ID: <200207180501.g6I519r26051@salome.uchicago.edu> >As someone else has pointed out, you've got the order pretty hosed >up there. The fact that _Diamond Age_ was a pseudo-sequel was one clue. :) >(I have also heard that _The Big U_ has been re-released, haven't looked >for it yet). For what it is worth, Stephenson does not think that The Big U was all that good. > >It also goes to show how different tastes are. I think _Cryptonomicon_ >is his best book yet. Of course it helps being a fairly techical >computer geek, so that some of the things are funny (Ordo, Finux) I would have wielded an editorial chainsaw to Cryptonomicon. I really like Stephenson, he is fast and he is funny. That gets old over 1200 pages or whatever it was.... Back to your regularly scheduled discussion of who Mario is.... brad From andrew at networkharmoni.com.au Wed Jul 17 22:17:09 2002 From: andrew at networkharmoni.com.au (Andrew Bailey) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:17:09 +0800 Subject: Kelly (long) was Re: the next vlad book? References: <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> <20020717213834.GB20035@infodancer.org> <3D360EE0.3060001@networkharmoni.com.au> <20020718023444.GA27548@infodancer.org> <200207180448.g6I4mp625999@salome.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <3D364F55.5050602@networkharmoni.com.au> Brad wrote: >>From: Matthew Hunter >>On Thu, Jul 18, 2002 at 08:42:08AM +0800, Andrew Bailey wrote: >> >>>Why? Well he is a well read, highly intelligent individual who >>>understands social systems quite well, but for some reason is completely >>>unable to see why his marxist revolution is doomed to failure. >> >>He's a well-read, highly-intelligent ideologue. This attitude >>tends to breed an inability to consider the flaws in your own >>ideas, while exacerbating the flaws in others. >> > > > I recently reread Teckla and Phoenix (in that order, skipping Taltos). > Something really struck me this time. Kelly is, as a person, a real > ass. He is egotistical and incredibly rude. He doesn't argue with > you so much as batter you into insensibility. What I find fascinating > about this is that he is the only character who espouses, in any great > detail, the political philosophy of his movement (Natalia is actually > a sympathetic characeter, despite all that she has gone through, but > Vlad and her do not talk all that much). Now, as we all know, this > philosophy is quite close to that of the author. I think it takes a > certain amount guts to write a book where a complete twit is the > closest voice to how one feels about an issue. > > The other intersting thing, to me, about Kelly is that Vlad's > criticisms are correct. He really does not see people as individuals, > but as parts of various the system or of the revolution. All > philosophies, when taken to their extremes, see people this way. You > could almost take the book as argument against Marxism but Kelly would > be the same way regardless of what he was arguing for. Instead the > books are more saying that for any group to succeed in changing the > "system" they need to work with people as people, and not as classes. > (To be honest, I have tried to find a less trite of saying this, and > failed.) Of course, I might just be thinking a little much about > all of this.... > Yeah well Kelly is a Revolutionary and not a Politician, and that IMHO this is his main failing. Compromise and pragmatism do not seem to be in his vocabilary as anything other than terms of derision. Its really the all or nothing approch that he has to reform that annoys me. I feel he had a chance to negotiate an improvement in conditions but since it wasn't going to be on his terms he wasn't interested in anything. Vlad on the other hand could become a great politician all he needs is access to an Issola politcal advisor and scriptwriter[0]. Anyway hard line Trotskyites irritate me, I always want to slap them and say "The long march is made up of many steps." Andrew. [0] Now I am thinking of the Dragaerian version of "Wag the Dog", I don't know why but I am. From rone at ennui.org Wed Jul 17 23:10:21 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (figmentality) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 23:10:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020717183458.02f04020@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <20020718061021.942DC26E25@boredom.ennui.org> Steven Brust writes: At 05:43 PM 7/17/2002 -0500, Matthew Hunter wrote: >You would do better asking, "How did Steve get to Dragaera?" My Stupid Brown Dog got out one day, and I was following him trying to get him back to the yard and just ended up there. Good thing I had my collating rack with me... This story better not involve ruby slippers. rone -- Constancy of the speed of light is a conclusion, yes it is a conclusion based on nonconvincing, irrational assumptions. WHAT IS LIGHT?! Whose light? From what sourse? Please do not mention electronagnetics - the same applies to them. - Alexander Abian From mneme at io.com Wed Jul 17 23:26:49 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 01:26:49 -0500 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <200207180501.g6I519r26051@salome.uchicago.edu> References: <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> <15669.58791.198412.512656@eris.io.com> <3D35EFBF.A257F302@attbi.com> <01KK7SCWEHIS000GU3@chud.net> <200207180501.g6I519r26051@salome.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <15670.24489.420949.513670@eris.io.com> Brad writes: >>As someone else has pointed out, you've got the order pretty hosed >>up there. The fact that _Diamond Age_ was a pseudo-sequel was one clue. :) >>(I have also heard that _The Big U_ has been re-released, haven't looked >>for it yet). >For what it is worth, Stephenson does not think that The Big U was >all that good. So I've heard. He's wrong, though -- it's one of his best books. And the decent into chaos there makes more sense in The Big U than it does in much of his other work. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breath, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Jul 18 03:48:40 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 03:48:40 -0700 Subject: Books we've read (was: the next vlad book?) In-Reply-To: <20020717221324.B22797@gw.dd-b.net> References: <85.1e5e5991.2a678b6a@aol.com> <85.1e5e5991.2a678b6a@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020718034811.02f76b20@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:13 PM 7/17/2002 -0500, pddb at demesne.com wrote: > And David and I have copies of >the Mushroom Planet books, too, and reread them with great pleasure. As I've said before, the Mushroom Planet books are still my favorite hard sf. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Jul 18 03:50:22 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 03:50:22 -0700 Subject: Books we've read (was: the next vlad book?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020718034948.02f752a0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 12:10 AM 7/18/2002 -0400, Lowki Liesmith wrote: >by the way I was hoping that someone, particularly Steve, would answer my >question from earlier. when will the next Vlad book come out? I have no idea. I haven't started it yet. I'm still doing revisions on _Viscount_. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Jul 18 04:01:29 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 04:01:29 -0700 Subject: Kelly (long) was Re: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <3D364F55.5050602@networkharmoni.com.au> References: <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> <20020717213834.GB20035@infodancer.org> <3D360EE0.3060001@networkharmoni.com.au> <20020718023444.GA27548@infodancer.org> <200207180448.g6I4mp625999@salome.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020718040045.00a6caf0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 01:17 PM 7/18/2002 +0800, Andrew Bailey wrote: >Anyway hard line Trotskyites irritate me Trotskyists, not Trotskyites, please. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Jul 18 04:08:19 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 04:08:19 -0700 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions In-Reply-To: <20020718031134.GB27548@infodancer.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020717182931.02f02d90@pop3.lvcm.com> <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020717182931.02f02d90@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020718040633.00a6e580@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:11 PM 7/17/2002 -0500, Matthew Hunter wrote: >Steve, would you prefer to take them as they come, or should I >compile a list and get people to vote on questions to include or >the like? My preference would be to take them as they come, but Vlad doesn't have the patience for it. If I can convince the asshole to answer them at all, it had better be all in one shot. From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Jul 18 06:55:08 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:55:08 -0400 Subject: Kelly (long) was Re: the next vlad book? Message-ID: <44DBE174.3AE4A04E.0296E7C9@aol.com> In a message dated Thu, 18 Jul 2002 6:01:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > Trotskyists, not Trotskyites, please. Is this similar to the whole "Trekkie/Trekker" debate?? >:) Stacy From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Jul 18 07:05:31 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 18 Jul 2002 09:05:31 -0500 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <200207180455.g6I4tQr26012@salome.uchicago.edu> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020717182401.00ab61b0@pop3.lvcm.com> <200207180455.g6I4tQr26012@salome.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: Brad writes: > >From: Steven Brust > >And permit me to put in a special recommendation for the Aubrey/Maturin > >books of Patrick O'Brian, which are...well...just read them. The first one > >is called _Master and Commander_. > > I second this nomination. They are wonderful, and there are like > 18 of them so you can just keep reading and reading.... 20, in fact. They just read so well it seems like fewer :-). > I also picked up a great collection of incredibly dark short stories > by O'Brian called The Rendezvous and Other Stories. Little humor, > different subject matter, it is good to see an author you enjoy stretch > his legs, so to speak. I've read some of his other works, and they seem to me *very* different. I wouldn't have placed them as by the same author. I like the A/M books better, but his other writing is certainly good if you like that kind of thing. Some of the stories in The Rendezvous were really quite excellent. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Jul 18 07:08:17 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 18 Jul 2002 09:08:17 -0500 Subject: Books we've read (was: the next vlad book?) In-Reply-To: <85.1e5e5991.2a678b6a@aol.com> References: <85.1e5e5991.2a678b6a@aol.com> Message-ID: Starshadw at aol.com writes: > Out of curiosity, am I the only one who still owns copies of AND reads books > I loved as a child? Books which are found in the young adult section? I > just picked up a new one today that I saw it and smiled because I remembered > reading it so many years ago. No, of course not :-). Everything from Heinlein juveniles, to Verne's _The Mysterious Island_, to Rick Brant books. Sitting near my desk waiting to be read are 4 W.E.Butterworth young-adult car books, which I can't resist looking into since I rather like his work as W.E.B. Griffin. I've been going back and getting hardcover editions of some of the older books I liked. Lots of fairly cheap ex-library editions of the Heinlein around, for example. I've picked up some Alan E. Nourse I liked as a child, too. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Jul 18 07:14:54 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 18 Jul 2002 09:14:54 -0500 Subject: Kelly (long) was Re: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <44DBE174.3AE4A04E.0296E7C9@aol.com> References: <44DBE174.3AE4A04E.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: Starshadw at aol.com writes: > In a message dated Thu, 18 Jul 2002 6:01:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > > > Trotskyists, not Trotskyites, please. > > Is this similar to the whole "Trekkie/Trekker" debate?? >:) And if so, wouldn't it be the *non*-preferred form that irritates people? :-) -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Jul 18 08:19:45 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:19:45 EDT Subject: the next vlad book? Message-ID: <6f.2aa3ffaa.2a683691@aol.com> I did not see any mention of Jack Chalker. I particularly liked his G.O.D. Inc books. Other books that I have enjoyed in the last few years are anything by Elizabeth Moon, Elizabeth Lynn, LE Modessit Jr and Terry Pratchett. As for childhood books that I pick-up and reread; there is Jefferson Mcgraw by Weldon Hill, All Summer in a Day by ??? and The Narnia series by C.S. Lewis. Regarding The Wheel of Time books. I opine that Mr. Jordan likes to write 10 scenes and chapters for what really should take 1. He seems to get lost in his own story alot. It is my opinion that his editors could do a much better job of cutting the chaff and streamlining a long and boring series into one that is a real page turner. John D. Barbato From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Jul 18 08:58:46 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 08:58:46 -0700 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <6f.2aa3ffaa.2a683691@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020718085749.02f2cdf0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:19 AM 7/18/2002 -0400, Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > I opine that Mr. Jordan likes to write 10 >scenes and chapters for what really should take 1. He seems to get lost in >his own story alot. I hate when writers do that. I mean, sheesh. Really. Tee hee From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Jul 18 09:03:48 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:03:48 -0400 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020718085749.02f2cdf0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: On Thursday, July 18, 2002, at 11:58 AM, Steven Brust wrote: > At 11:19 AM 7/18/2002 -0400, Randi128 at aol.com wrote: >> I opine that Mr. Jordan likes to write 10 >> scenes and chapters for what really should take 1. He seems to get >> lost in >> his own story alot. > > I hate when writers do that. I mean, sheesh. Really. > > > > Tee hee Yes, Robert Jordan tends to over write alot--sometimes I just want to scream "Get on with it!". At first, like during the first four books, I was impressed by the level of detail and nuances he described. Now, 5 books later, I find it irritating. I will finish The Wheel of Time, only because I have so much time invested in it and I don't want it all to go to waste. Now, Vlad, I like his narrative style. There are times when i want more but I'll live. The bastard wouldn't tell me anyway if asked him :-) ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Jul 18 09:07:41 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:07:41 -0500 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020718085749.02f2cdf0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <20020718160741.GC20035@infodancer.org> On Thu, Jul 18, 2002 at 12:03:48PM -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: > Yes, Robert Jordan tends to over write alot--sometimes I just want to > scream "Get on with it!". At first, like during the first four books, I > was impressed by the level of detail and nuances he described. Now, 5 > books later, I find it irritating. I don't mind the quantity of Jordan's writing much. What bugs me is how much the quality has declined. The first three or four books were tightly written, tightly paced, innovative fantasy. After that they started to bog down in relatively irrelevent details. You can spend quite a bit of time dissecting the books to extract every last tidbit of information (there's a LOT that's implied by the details, rather than stated outright), and I enjoy doing that. Lately, though, even trying that kind of analysis just leaves you spinning in circles, whereas before it could provide at least some clear answers. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Jul 18 09:33:11 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:33:11 -0400 Subject: the next vlad book? Message-ID: <2D99B54B.0BB57010.0296E7C9@aol.com> In a message dated Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:03:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, zizban at adelphia.net writes: > Yes, Robert Jordan tends to over write alot--sometimes I just want to > scream "Get on with it!". At first, like during the first four books, I > was impressed by the level of detail and nuances he > described. Now, 5 > books later, I find it irritating. There are writer who can get away with a style such as this, but most cannot. Tolkien and Richard Adams are two that do it well. Tad Williams is another who does NOT do it well. Stacy From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Jul 18 09:39:16 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:39:16 -0400 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <2D99B54B.0BB57010.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thursday, July 18, 2002, at 12:33 PM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > > > There are writer who can get away with a style such as this, but most > cannot. > > Tolkien and Richard Adams are two that do it well. > Tad Williams is another who does NOT do it well. > > Stacy > Tad Williams writes hot and cold in the same book. When he's hot the plot is tight, fast paced and unexpected twists. BUT when he's cold, he gets Really Boring. The second book of Memory, Sorrow and Thorn was really boring, a yawn fest. ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Thu Jul 18 09:53:35 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:53:35 -0500 Subject: Writers Message-ID: <3D36F28F.C8D7729D@attbi.com> Steven Brust wrote: "Tee hee." I don't know just why, but that comment reminded me of Paarfi. Did y'all notice the time in the middle of 500 Years After when he explained that he never described the horses because they were just transportation and the people who really *use* horses don't notice them much. Then for the entire rest of the novel he was careful to describe every horse that was mentioned. Tee hee, indeed. Mia From annoying_dude at yahoo.com Thu Jul 18 09:49:48 2002 From: annoying_dude at yahoo.com (Matt Smit) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:49:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Books we've read (was: the next vlad book?) Message-ID: <20020718164948.9391.qmail@web14202.mail.yahoo.com> I think the best think I ever read about YA and kids books was in Will Shetterly's book Elsewhere. In case you haven't read it (and not reading it is a transgression of serious magnitude, :->), the books are shelved in some...unusual categories, one of which is "Books for Children and Unusually Perceptive Adults." -Matt ===== A catalog of barely post-adolescent insanity: http://livejournal.com/users/mattador Where the voices in my head come out to play. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Jul 18 10:14:50 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:14:50 EDT Subject: the next vlad book? Message-ID: <7c.2b0b2e30.2a68518a@aol.com> Stacey wrote: Tad Williams is another that does not do it well. Bravo!!!! He tends to write and write and write, Then, lets you down with a perfunctory ending. I hate it when that happens. :) John Barbato From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Jul 18 10:16:48 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:16:48 -0400 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <7c.2b0b2e30.2a68518a@aol.com> Message-ID: <24C326CE-9A72-11D6-B671-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Thursday, July 18, 2002, at 01:14 PM, Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > Stacey wrote: Tad Williams is another that does not do it well. > > Bravo!!!! He tends to write and write and write, Then, lets you down > with a > perfunctory ending. I hate it when that happens. > > :) > > John Barbato > Kind of like the ending to "To Green Angel Tower"? After all that build up, we get this?? LOL ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From pddb at demesne.com Thu Jul 18 10:20:26 2002 From: pddb at demesne.com (pddb at demesne.com) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:20:26 -0500 Subject: Books we've read (was: the next vlad book?) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020718034811.02f76b20@pop3.lvcm.com>; from skzb@dreamcafe.com on Thu, Jul 18, 2002 at 03:48:40AM -0700 References: <85.1e5e5991.2a678b6a@aol.com> <85.1e5e5991.2a678b6a@aol.com> <20020717221324.B22797@gw.dd-b.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020718034811.02f76b20@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <20020718122026.C16711@gw.dd-b.net> On Thu, Jul 18, 2002 at 03:48:40AM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: > At 10:13 PM 7/17/2002 -0500, pddb at demesne.com wrote: > > And David and I have copies of > >the Mushroom Planet books, too, and reread them with great pleasure. > > As I've said before, the Mushroom Planet books are still my favorite hard sf. Yes, they have impossible elements but the basic hard-sf nature. AND they are in the rocketship-in-the-back-yard category, also one of my favorites. -- Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet (pddb at demesne.com) "I will open my heart to a blank page and interview the witnesses." John M. Ford, "Shared World" From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Jul 18 10:25:26 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:25:26 -0400 Subject: the next vlad book? Message-ID: <29269DB5.7DC52DFB.0296E7C9@aol.com> In a message dated Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:16:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, zizban at adelphia.net writes: > Kind of like the ending to "To Green Angel Tower"? After > all that build > up, we get this?? LOL His Tailchaser novel was QUITE good, though. Probably because he didn't go on and on with useless drivel. The writing was nice and tight, and the story moved along at a good pace. Stacy From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Jul 18 10:28:05 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:28:05 EDT Subject: the next vlad book? Message-ID: <177.b7bb613.2a6854a5@aol.com> To Chris Turkel: You wrote: ...we get this.... EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!! John Barbato From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Jul 18 10:30:45 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:30:45 -0400 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <29269DB5.7DC52DFB.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <175B9B22-9A74-11D6-B671-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Thursday, July 18, 2002, at 01:25 PM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:16:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, > zizban at adelphia.net writes: > >> Kind of like the ending to "To Green Angel Tower"? After >> all that build >> up, we get this?? LOL > > His Tailchaser novel was QUITE good, though. Probably because he > didn't go on and on with useless drivel. The writing was nice and > tight, and the story moved along at a good pace. > > Stacy > TailChaser was quite good, I agree. > ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From moghan_david at yahoo.com Thu Jul 18 10:31:31 2002 From: moghan_david at yahoo.com (Robert Opramolla) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 10:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <20020718061021.942DC26E25@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <20020718173131.78184.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com> figmentality wrote:Steven Brust writes: At 05:43 PM 7/17/2002 -0500, Matthew Hunter wrote: >You would do better asking, "How did Steve get to Dragaera?" My Stupid Brown Dog got out one day, and I was following him trying to get him back to the yard and just ended up there. Good thing I had my collating rack with me... This story better not involve ruby slippers. No, But I bet it does involve Kiera stealing some Blood Of Amber for Steve!!! --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Thu Jul 18 10:42:06 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 10:42:06 -0700 Subject: Comic books Message-ID: Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > > These days, you can even find real good writing in comic > books: Gaiman's , Foglio's , and > I've just discovered Smith's . I feel compelled to mention Ennis' . Great stuff -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Thu Jul 18 10:43:16 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 10:43:16 -0700 Subject: the next vlad book? Message-ID: figmentality wrote: > > Steven Brust writes: > At 05:43 PM 7/17/2002 -0500, Matthew Hunter wrote: > >You would do better asking, "How did Steve get to Dragaera?" > My Stupid Brown Dog got out one day, and I was following him trying to get > him back to the yard and just ended up there. Good thing I had my > collating rack with me... > > This story better not involve ruby slippers. How do silver ones work for ya? *grin* Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Thu Jul 18 10:44:54 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 10:44:54 -0700 Subject: the next vlad book? Message-ID: Brad wrote: > > > Back to your regularly scheduled discussion of who Mario is.... My current pet theory is that Mario is Mario. A distinct character, not masquerading as anyone we know, keeps mostly to himself, etc. Prosaic, but very effective... Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Thu Jul 18 10:46:17 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 10:46:17 -0700 Subject: Comfort Books Message-ID: Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > > > And another book question: Do you have "comfort" books? Sometimes, if I'm Mmm. Susan Cooper's Dark is Rising sequence comes to mind. One of the first series I read in this language, and I found it in our school library. My mother started me off by having me read The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings when I was about 9 or 10 and just learning English. She despises fantasy, but loves Tolkien. Anyway, off that tangent... comfort books. Elizabeth Moon's Deed of Paksenarrion. And sometimes I like to read as many of the Vlad books as I can in one sitting. Another one by Steve I reread for comfort: The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars. I'm not into art (I'm a visual philistine), but I'd love to see that painting. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Jul 18 10:47:14 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:47:14 EDT Subject: Comic books Message-ID: <187.ae9700f.2a685922@aol.com> I enjoy Heavy Metal Magazine. I do not read it as faithfully as I used to, but it has been a favorite of mine since I was 15 years old. From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Jul 18 10:51:26 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:51:26 -0400 Subject: the next vlad book? Message-ID: <62F4B1D1.1264E5E7.0296E7C9@aol.com> In a message dated Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:44:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, jhereg69 at earthlink.net writes: > My current pet theory is that Mario is Mario. A distinct character, not > masquerading as anyone we know, keeps mostly to himself, > etc. Prosaic, but > very effective... I agree. From tyan at twcny.rr.com Thu Jul 18 11:09:01 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: 18 Jul 2002 14:09:01 -0400 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: "Ian sympatico"'s message of "Wed, 17 Jul 2002 21:48:38 -0400" References: <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> <15669.58791.198412.512656@eris.io.com> <3D35EFBF.A257F302@attbi.com> <002901c22dfd$3d680c00$6c845f41@idirect.com> Message-ID: "Ian sympatico" writes: > > If anyone has not read Zelazny yet I don't know why they are on this list! ? Surely there are at least a few people here who haven't read any Zelazny. Right? Also, I like both Steve's and Zelazny's books, but in general, they don't feel that similar to me. I suspect I'm in the minority; anyone else in there with me? > Neal Stephenson's first book the Diamond Age was fantastic. His second book > was not bad, can't remember the name. His last book Cryptonomicron > (spelling?) I couldn't get through. -snip- I've read only _Cryptonomicon_ (no 'r' at the end), which I liked a lot. (I couldn't tell if Inner and Outer Q were real or not. I had to do a little Googling to find out.) I hear that he doesn't do endings ([well] / [at all], take your pick), but Crypto's was ok by me. - tky From tyan at twcny.rr.com Thu Jul 18 11:16:48 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: 18 Jul 2002 14:16:48 -0400 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: Starshadw@aol.com's message of "Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:36:04 EDT" References: Message-ID: Starshadw at aol.com writes: > > [book reading rate] > I lost count years ago. I couldn't even begin to guess how many books I've > read. And we don't even want to talk about all of the many books I re-read. I noticed that I had trouble remembering books I had read and movies I had seen, so I borrowed a friend's idea and started minimalist book and movie logs. Minimalist means title & author for books, directory & year & title & source (TV, DVD, theater) for movies, plus the year & month I read/saw them. The idea is that recording more information, such as a synopsis or review or rating, would make it too much work and I'd give up maintenance. It's been interesting. I read SF almost exclusively, where SF = speculative fiction, which includes science fiction, fantasy, horror, and maybe some alternate / secret history. Within SF, I thought that I read mostly science fiction. Well, that might be true over my lifetime, but to my surprise, for the last few years, when I have been keeping a booklog, I've read and reread more fantasy than science fiction. - tky From rachael at daedala.net Thu Jul 18 11:19:09 2002 From: rachael at daedala.net (Rachael Lininger) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:19:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Comfort Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Jul 18, jhereg69 at earthlink.net said: >Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >> >> >> And another book question: Do you have "comfort" books? Sometimes, if I'm > >Mmm. Susan Cooper's Dark is Rising sequence comes to mind. One of the first >series I read in this language, and I found it in our school library. My >mother started me off by having me read The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings when >I was about 9 or 10 and just learning English. She despises fantasy, but loves >Tolkien. Anyway, off that tangent... No, that's a good tangent. What a way to learn English! I'm jealous, I am. Rachael -- Rachael From the Dilbert Newsletter: Lininger "You should talk to her. rachael@ She is a minefield of information." daedala.net From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Thu Jul 18 11:19:21 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:19:21 -0700 Subject: the next vlad book? Message-ID: Thomas Yan wrote: > > "Ian sympatico" writes: > > > > If anyone has not read Zelazny yet I don't know why they are on this list! > > ? Surely there are at least a few people here who haven't read any > Zelazny. Right? A year ago, I would have been one of them. I only learned of Zelazny from Steve's mentioning him on several occasions (interviews, intro to To Reign in Hell, etc.). I bought the Great Book of Amber omnibus last August, but I haven't read anything else. I enjoyed the Amber series, but I don't know what else I should pick up. > Also, I like both Steve's and Zelazny's books, but in general, they > don't feel that similar to me. I suspect I'm in the minority; anyone > else in there with me? Something about Zelazny's tone and the style remind me of Steve's tone and style. That should probably be the other way around, except I read Steve's stuff before I read Zelazny. Alas, I have not really read enough Zelazny to do a good comparison. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From stvitus at flash.net Thu Jul 18 11:24:53 2002 From: stvitus at flash.net (nikki m. pill) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:24:53 -0500 Subject: Comfort Books References: Message-ID: <006101c22e88$6c23a320$0201a8c0@kelly> Stacy wrote: > > And another book question: Do you have "comfort" books? Sometimes, if I'm And Jose wrote: > Mmm. Susan Cooper's Dark is Rising sequence comes to mind. OOOOOH, I LOVED THOSE!!!! My comfort books -- particularly when I'm under stress: 1. Steven's books. All of them. All in a row. I used to read them back-to-back as soon as I finished my finals in college. I often re-read one at random when I've nothing new to read, because I always notice something new that changes my perspective when I read it. I go through them all at least once a year. 2. Neil Gaiman books. See above. 3. David Eddings' *Mallorean* and *Belgariad.* I got hooked on them when I was 13 and haven't been able to kick the habit. 4. The Harry Potter books My nostalgia books: 1. Hickman and Weis's *Dragonlance Lengends* Series -- Raistlin Majere was my first real character obsession. 2. The Chronicles of Narnia 3. The Oz Books 4. The "Anne" and "Emily" serieses by L.M. Montgomery 5. The Phantom Tollbooth I stilll have most of my childrens' books. I like to flip through them for deja vu purposes. Nikki From stvitus at flash.net Thu Jul 18 11:25:38 2002 From: stvitus at flash.net (nikki m. pill) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:25:38 -0500 Subject: Fw: SF pet peeves Message-ID: <006a01c22e88$872e8cc0$0201a8c0@kelly> > Stacy wrote: > > > There are writer who can get away with a style such as this, but most > cannot. An author's "clever humor" is the same way. Steven, of course, can be riotously funny without detracting from the story. So can Neil Gaiman & Terry Pratchett, as in *Good Omens,* or Douglas Adams (for the first few books, anyway). Neil Stephenson, on the other hand, overdoes the "look how clever I am" aspect. So do those Roberts who do the Illuminatus Trilogy. It's like reading Tom Robbins in SF, or even worse, Gore Vidal. I can't cope with smug writers. Nikki > From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Thu Jul 18 11:35:24 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:35:24 -0700 Subject: Comfort Books Message-ID: Rachael Lininger wrote: > > On Jul 18, jhereg69 at earthlink.net said: > >Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > >> > >> > >> And another book question: Do you have "comfort" books? Sometimes, if I'm > > > >Mmm. Susan Cooper's Dark is Rising sequence comes to mind. One of the first > >series I read in this language, and I found it in our school library. My > >mother started me off by having me read The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings when > >I was about 9 or 10 and just learning English. She despises fantasy, but loves > >Tolkien. Anyway, off that tangent... > > No, that's a good tangent. What a way to learn English! > > I'm jealous, I am. Yeah, it's not too bad. It means having a large vocabulary of words you often mispronounce, because you've never heard them used in conversation. Never use the word "doldrums" to describe the lack of airport traffic to a taxi driver. They look at you funny. Actually, nothing has confused my English more than learning German. I can't do spoken grammar particularly well any more (not to say that my written grammar is better, but at least grammar and spell checking help you avoid looking like a fool). Speaking English but putting verbs at the end of a sentence achieves a neat Yoda effect, but it's not so cool when you do it unintentionally. I've ended up able to speak three languages.... badly. *grin* Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Jul 18 11:40:04 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 14:40:04 EDT Subject: the next vlad book? Message-ID: <11e.13ca51d2.2a686584@aol.com> Jhereg69 wrote:..my current theory is that mario is mario... Not THAT old gag again. Sheesh!!!! How novel, a character that is not masquerading as another character. Enough sarcasm. I also believe that Mario is Mario. I have been lambasted for the last week for believing this. Someone else in my camp???....At long last.....bless you jherg69...... NAH NAH na NAH NAH!!! From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Jul 18 11:35:48 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:35:48 -0500 Subject: Comfort Books In-Reply-To: <006101c22e88$6c23a320$0201a8c0@kelly> References: <006101c22e88$6c23a320$0201a8c0@kelly> Message-ID: <20020718183548.GF20035@infodancer.org> On Thu, Jul 18, 2002 at 01:24:53PM -0500, "nikki m. pill" wrote: > And Jose wrote: > > Mmm. Susan Cooper's Dark is Rising sequence comes to mind. > OOOOOH, I LOVED THOSE!!!! One of my favorites as well. > My comfort books -- particularly when I'm under stress: > 3. David Eddings' *Mallorean* and *Belgariad.* I got hooked on them when I > was 13 and haven't been able to kick the habit. Reread them one last time, all in a row. Pay close attention to each cliche, stereotype, failure of a character to grow and change over the course of the books, and so on. In fact, just make up a checklist of the qualities of bad writing, and fill it out. At the end of each series, write a one-paragraph plot summary without referring to any proper names or places. When you have read all of the Eddings books you have available, note that your "bad writing" checklist for each one is completely filled out, and compare your plot summaries (noting that they are functionally identical). This will cure you. (Hey, it worked for me. I loved Edding first time through the Belgariad. I began to be annoyed at his lack of creativity through the Mallorean. As soon as the Sparhawk series was revealed to be a quest for Yet Another Blue Stone, I figured out what he was doing and threw the book across the room.) -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From stvitus at flash.net Thu Jul 18 12:00:53 2002 From: stvitus at flash.net (nikki m. pill) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 14:00:53 -0500 Subject: Comfort Books References: <006101c22e88$6c23a320$0201a8c0@kelly> <20020718183548.GF20035@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <00ad01c22e8d$746c0d60$0201a8c0@kelly> Matthew said, re Eddings: > Reread them one last time, all in a row. Pay close attention to > each cliche, stereotype, failure of a character to grow and > change over the course of the books, and so on. In fact, just > make up a checklist of the qualities of bad writing, and fill it > out. > > This will cure you. *giggle* I admit, the older I get, the more I flinch when I re-read them and the *Dragonlance* books. However, I think there's a certain window of time at which you can just fall in love with certain books and never really get tired of them. For me, that window was 12-13. Many books I loved at 15 and 16 (Poppy Z Brite, for instance) bore me to tears now. I still love my comfy old David Eddings books, and my comfy old blue jeans, and my comfy habit of eating French Toast smeared with peanut butter and pancake syrup drizzled over the top. In fact, add those all up with a rainy Sunday, a mug of coffee "to which thick cream and [sweet & low] have been liberally applied," a soft easy chair, and a purring cat at my side, and I'm about as happy as a human ever gets. [Note: was anyone else intrigued by the descriptions of making klava in *Issola*? Steven, have you ever really prepared such a thing, or are you just taunting us? While we're at it, am I correct in assuming kethna tastes like venison?] As soon as the Sparhawk series was > revealed to be a quest for Yet Another Blue Stone, I figured out > what he was doing and threw the book across the room I absolutely cannot cope with that series, nor with his "rehash" books (Belgarath the Sorcerer, etc). He hasn't earned the right to pay homage to himself (and for the record, neither has Kevin Smith)! Nikki, stuck on food today... Steven's books always make me hungry! From alan at 5sc.net Thu Jul 18 12:23:09 2002 From: alan at 5sc.net (Alan) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 15:23:09 -0400 Subject: Comfort Books Message-ID: > > I stilll have most of my childrens' books. I like to flip through them for > deja vu purposes. > > Nikki > By some chance, do you (or anyone, really) happen to have any "Dick and Jane" books for a Good Cause ? I am trying to find some for my autistic daughter without paying an arm and a leg for them. They hold her attention, and will be used for "learning to read" rather than collectables. Alan From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Jul 18 12:19:21 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 15:19:21 EDT Subject: Comfort Books Message-ID: <195.9e4e464.2a686eb9@aol.com> In a message dated 7/18/2002 1:00:02 PM Mountain Daylight Time, stvitus at flash.net writes: > I admit, the older I get, the more I flinch when I re-read them and the > *Dragonlance* books. Sorry. Weiss and Hickman lost me when they turned Raistlin into a bizzare psychotic, unrepentently evil person. And yes, I know that later they had hime "semi-redeem" himself, but it totally ruined the entire series for me. Stacy From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Jul 18 12:22:31 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 15:22:31 EDT Subject: Comfort Books Message-ID: In a message dated 7/18/2002 1:00:02 PM Mountain Daylight Time, stvitus at flash.net writes: > I still love my comfy > old David Eddings books, and my comfy old blue jeans, Yep, me too - I re-read Eddings frequently, although now I generally skip over the sections where there is a great deal of Ce'Nedra because I never liked the character. Another comfort author for me is Anne McCraffrey. Her stuff sometimes makes my teeth itch because it's got so many holes and contradictions, but I first read them when I was a child, and I fell in love with the IDEA of Pern. Now, I can see all of the flaws in the books themselves, but I still love the world itself. Stacy From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Jul 18 12:23:45 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 15:23:45 EDT Subject: Comfort Books Message-ID: <8.2973d82f.2a686fc1@aol.com> In a message dated 7/18/2002 1:12:37 PM Mountain Daylight Time, alan at 5sc.net writes: > By some chance, do you (or anyone, really) happen to have any "Dick and > Jane" > books for a Good Cause ? I am trying to find some for my autistic daughter > without paying an arm and a leg for them. They hold her attention, and > will > be used for "learning to read" rather than collectables. > Have you tried looking for E-texts at all??? Stacy From alan at 5sc.net Thu Jul 18 12:41:28 2002 From: alan at 5sc.net (Alan) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 15:41:28 -0400 Subject: Comfort Books In-Reply-To: <8.2973d82f.2a686fc1@aol.com> Message-ID: > In a message dated 7/18/2002 1:12:37 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > alan at 5sc.net > writes: > > > > By some chance, do you (or anyone, really) happen to have any "Dick and > > Jane" > > books for a Good Cause ? I am trying to find some for my > autistic daughter > > without paying an arm and a leg for them. They hold her attention, and > > will > > be used for "learning to read" rather than collectables. > > > > Have you tried looking for E-texts at all??? > > Stacy > What it is about them that holds her attention may never be known. Autism is very frustrating in that regard. Dr. Suess works too, but not nearly as well as the Dick and Jane ones. I have a couple, but under the "strike while the iron is hot" theory, am desparately looking for more. Alan From goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU Thu Jul 18 12:31:23 2002 From: goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (David Goldfarb) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:31:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Comfort Books Message-ID: <200207181931.g6IJVNZ23498@apocalypse.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> From: Matthew Hunter >(I loved Edding first time through the >Belgariad. I began to be annoyed at his lack of creativity >through the Mallorean. As soon as the Sparhawk series was >revealed to be a quest for Yet Another Blue Stone, I figured out >what he was doing and threw the book across the room.) Brother! -- David Goldfarb <*>|"It is curious that a dog runs already goldfarb at ocf.berkeley.edu | on the escalator." goldfarb at csua.berkeley.edu | -- Bella Abzug From hologram at algonet.se Thu Jul 18 12:32:55 2002 From: hologram at algonet.se (Nicklas Andersson) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 21:32:55 +0200 Subject: comfort books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20020718212438.009ebf00@pop.algonet.se> At 23:33 2002-07-17 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >And another book question: Do you have "comfort" books? Sometimes, >if I'm >having trouble sleeping because I'm nervous or stressed or frightened, >or if >I'm not feeling well, or am going through one of my melancholies, I >have >books that I can go and grab off the bookshelf and sit down and read >and they >make me feel a little better. Mine are all easy reads - in fact, the >L'Engle >books and Nimh are probably some of my comfort books. As when I start to read something, I continue reading it even if it is far to late and I should be sleeping, I tend to keep my comfort books short. I alos like them to be somewhat askew and remind me that sometimes reality ins't the way I percieve it. Paul Di Filippo's "The Jackdaw's Last Case". Short Story in his Lost Pages-book. It's about a superhero. And Kafka. The rest of the stories also feature authors and famous people in alternative universes. William Browning Spencer's ""R?sum? With Monsters". A Cthuhlianian love story. Terry Carr's "Fandom Harvest" too I guess. Selected fanzine writings. / Nicklas From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Jul 18 12:38:30 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 15:38:30 EDT Subject: Comfort Books Message-ID: <87.1e67234d.2a687336@aol.com> In a message dated 7/18/2002 1:30:54 PM Mountain Daylight Time, alan at 5sc.net writes: > What it is about them that holds her attention may never be known. > Autism is very frustrating in that regard. Dr. Suess works too, > but not nearly as well as the Dick and Jane ones. I have a couple, > but under the "strike while the iron is hot" theory, am desparately > looking for more. > -nods- Are you talking about the McGuffey Readers? If not, then you might try those as well. From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Jul 18 12:58:11 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 15:58:11 EDT Subject: Comfort Books Message-ID: All these David Eddings fans. I found his books to be too busy showing us what a clever conversationalist he is. He is another author that I put in the same catagory as Tad Williams and Robert Jordan. John Barbato From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Jul 18 13:13:51 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 16:13:51 -0400 Subject: Comfort Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thursday, July 18, 2002, at 03:58 PM, Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > All these David Eddings fans. I found his books to be too busy showing > us > what a clever conversationalist he is. He is another author that I put > in the > same catagory as Tad Williams and Robert Jordan. > > > John Barbato > The first five books were good, The Belgariad (Pawn of Prophecy, etc), but after that, they got bad. And how can leaders of kingdoms suddenly decide to go adventure? ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From tmer at eudoramail.com Thu Jul 18 14:12:38 2002 From: tmer at eudoramail.com (Barbara Baj) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 17:12:38 -0400 Subject: the next vlad book? Message-ID: -- On Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:19:21 Jose Marquez wrote: > >Thomas Yan wrote: >> >> "Ian sympatico" writes: >> > >> > If anyone has not read Zelazny yet I don't know why they are on this list! > >> >> ? Surely there are at least a few people here who haven't read any >> Zelazny. Right? > >A year ago, I would have been one of them. I only learned of Zelazny from >Steve's mentioning him on several occasions (interviews, intro to To Reign in >Hell, etc.). I bought the Great Book of Amber omnibus last August, but I >haven't read anything else. I enjoyed the Amber series, but I don't know what >else I should pick up. > >> Also, I like both Steve's and Zelazny's books, but in general, they >> don't feel that similar to me. I suspect I'm in the minority; anyone >> else in there with me? > >Something about Zelazny's tone and the style remind me of Steve's tone and >style. That should probably be the other way around, except I read Steve's >stuff before I read Zelazny. Alas, I have not really read enough Zelazny to do >a good comparison. > >Jose >-- >Jose Marquez >jhereg69 at earthlink.net Zelazny at his best was a Short Story writer, in my opinion. My favorite of his works is _Creatures of Light and Darkness_, which according to him, he wrote for the sheer fun of it. _Night of the Lonesome October_, if you can find it, is another 'great'. _Lord of Light_ won awards, was a good book, but somehow will not win a place in my heart. Any of his short story collections I think you'll not be disappointed in. Avoid the Jane Lindskold/ Zelazny joint efforts. In my opinion, they just aren't good, and only show painfully that his talent is gone forever. - Chance > Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From singram at videotron.ca Thu Jul 18 14:15:50 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 17:15:50 -0400 Subject: Kelly (long) was Re: the next vlad book? References: <44DBE174.3AE4A04E.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <054e01c22ea0$4ccacf40$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 9:55 AM Subject: Re: Kelly (long) was Re: the next vlad book? > In a message dated Thu, 18 Jul 2002 6:01:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > > > Trotskyists, not Trotskyites, please. > > Is this similar to the whole "Trekkie/Trekker" debate?? >:) > > Stacy You beat me to it! :) From singram at videotron.ca Thu Jul 18 14:22:25 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 17:22:25 -0400 Subject: Comfort Books References: Message-ID: <055b01c22ea1$372c55e0$17ecca18@ingram> My comfort shelf consists of: Steven's Dragheara books (yeah, I know, spelling is wrong :) The Sten series, by Allan Cole and Chris Bunch The Discworld books by Pratchett The Belgariad, by Eddings These aren't the only books I ever read, of course, just the ones that I re-read most often. -Scott From tyan at twcny.rr.com Thu Jul 18 14:29:09 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: 18 Jul 2002 17:29:09 -0400 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: "Barbara Baj"'s message of "Thu, 18 Jul 2002 17:12:38 -0400" References: Message-ID: "Barbara Baj" writes: > > Avoid the Jane Lindskold/ Zelazny joint efforts. In my opinion, they > just aren't good, and only show painfully that his talent is gone > forever. Wow, mileage sure varies. I thought _Lord Demon_ was fine, perfectly enjoyable, but nothing remarkable. _Donnerjack_, however, I loved, and regard fondly as a fitting farewell. Perhaps I should also say that while I like both Amber series, neither strikes me as either great or Zelazny at his best. - tky From singram at videotron.ca Thu Jul 18 14:43:58 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 17:43:58 -0400 Subject: Comfort shelf References: <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> <15669.58791.198412.512656@eris.io.com> <3D35EFBF.A257F302@attbi.com> <002901c22dfd$3d680c00$6c845f41@idirect.com> Message-ID: <05c801c22ea4$39809ec0$17ecca18@ingram> Woops, Add L.E. Modessit Jr and Neal Stephenson to my shelf :) I've just noticed that there's been some Eddings bashing on the list. Well, fair enough, I've never considered him to be an 'elegant' writer, but there's something about the Belgariad's environment that makes it particualarly 'comfortable' to slip into... which is why his books are on my 'comfort shelf'. My contribution to the Jordon conversation: I've been a long time happy contributor to the "Buy Robert Jordon a second (third?) yacht" club, but I'm beginning to feel a little abused.... I haven't experienced this much clumsy and prolonged foreplay without release since I was 15. Of course, back then, it was sort of fun... -Scott From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Jul 18 14:55:33 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 17:55:33 EDT Subject: Comfort shelf Message-ID: <29.2a4a4b3a.2a689355@aol.com> Scott Ingram Wrote: ...Theres been some Eddings bashing... No. No, Eddings bashing going on here. No bashing of any authors or books. Please do not take my or anyone else's personal opinions as a bash on anyone. I am merely stating an opinion. The majority of people on this list today have been very favorable to Mr Eddings. Obviously I read his books, they couldn't have been that bad. I just wouldn't read anything new by him. John Barbato From meersan at mn.astound.net Thu Jul 18 14:57:54 2002 From: meersan at mn.astound.net (Melissa Fitzgerald) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 16:57:54 -0500 Subject: Comfort Books In-Reply-To: <055b01c22ea1$372c55e0$17ecca18@ingram> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020718165754.007afb30@astound.net> Surprised I haven't seen people mention some of these.... Lighter stuff: Dave Duncan ... loved the _A Man of His Word_ series Melanie Rawn ... haven't read her new-ish series. The Sunrunner books seem to have a cast of thousands; I spend most of a book getting the names straight, and then half the characters die. $%*&! L. J. Smith ... leftover from my teen years :) Like several others on this list, I've found that some of the authors I loved when I was 13-15 haven't aged with me. Among these, I would have to include Piers Anthony, Terry Brooks, and David Eddings. Loved them at the time, but I guess my tastes have changed. Also Cool: Jane Austen Mervyn Peake Mary Stewart Vernor Vinge I've also read some Gene Wolfe and C.S. Friedman, and I can understand why people like them. Recently picked up _The Great Book of Amber_; wouldn't mind reading more Zelazny when I get the chance. I also read a lot of the Project Gutenberg e-texts--usually history but also some Dickens. Gibbons, Plutarch, all that jazz. Great stuff. -- meersan From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Jul 18 14:51:57 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 16:51:57 -0500 Subject: Comfort Books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020718215157.GI20035@infodancer.org> On Thu, Jul 18, 2002 at 03:58:11PM -0400, Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > All these David Eddings fans. I found his books to be too busy showing us > what a clever conversationalist he is. He is another author that I put in the > same catagory as Tad Williams and Robert Jordan. Don't even go there. Jordan can actually be a decent writer when he isn't trying to drag something out to 13 books. Dunno about Tad, never could read his stuff. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Jul 18 15:14:49 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 18:14:49 -0400 Subject: Comfort Books In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20020718165754.007afb30@astound.net> Message-ID: Yes, no one here is bashing Eddings, just expressing opinions. I don't think Eddings is a bad writer, I just won't read anymore by him. Kind of like Mercedes Lackey, who I feel doesn't aim her fiction at people like me. ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From yhcrana13 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 18 15:45:07 2002 From: yhcrana13 at hotmail.com (A. Nonymous) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 17:45:07 -0500 Subject: Comfort shelf Message-ID: I'll admit, it does really help to pick the Belgariad up at a relatively young age and get attached to the characters then. I think I was nine or ten when I first read them and Silk is still one of my heroes. Josh Collins The Guide is definitive. Reality is frequently inaccurate. (Douglas Adams - The Restaurant at the End of the Universe) yhcrana13 at hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From frank at exit.com Thu Jul 18 15:49:46 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 15:49:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Comfort shelf In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200207182249.g6IMnkge027439@realtime.exit.com> A. Nonymous wrote: > I'll admit, it does really help to pick the Belgariad up at a relatively > young age and get attached to the characters then. > I think I was nine or ten when I first read them and Silk is still one of my > heroes. Ah. I'll have to remember that. For, er, the next time. Or something. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Jul 18 16:01:29 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 19:01:29 -0400 Subject: Comfort shelf In-Reply-To: <200207182249.g6IMnkge027439@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <4B8C4802-9AA2-11D6-8FC5-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Thursday, July 18, 2002, at 06:49 PM, Frank Mayhar wrote: > A. Nonymous wrote: >> I'll admit, it does really help to pick the Belgariad up at a >> relatively >> young age and get attached to the characters then. >> I think I was nine or ten when I first read them and Silk is still one >> of my >> heroes. > > Ah. I'll have to remember that. For, er, the next time. > > Or something. > -- > Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ > Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ > > Ya! I remember Silk; he was great, as was Belgarath before he got Gandalf-like. ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From singram at videotron.ca Thu Jul 18 18:12:21 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 21:12:21 -0400 Subject: SF pet peeves References: <006a01c22e88$872e8cc0$0201a8c0@kelly> Message-ID: <068701c22ec1$563bf150$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: "nikki m. pill" To: Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 2:25 PM Subject: Fw: SF pet peeves > > Stacy wrote: > > > > > There are writer who can get away with a style such as this, but most > > cannot. > An author's "clever humor" is the same way. Steven, of course, can be > riotously funny without detracting from the story. So can Neil Gaiman & > Terry Pratchett, as in *Good Omens,* or Douglas Adams (for the first few The world needs more books like "Good Omens". That was an amazing collaboration, I wish they'd do it again. Scott From singram at videotron.ca Thu Jul 18 18:19:16 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 21:19:16 -0400 Subject: Books we've read (was: the next vlad book?) References: <85.1e5e5991.2a678b6a@aol.com> Message-ID: <06bb01c22ec2$4d3ece50$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Dyer-Bennet" To: Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 10:08 AM Subject: Re: Books we've read (was: the next vlad book?) > Starshadw at aol.com writes: > > > Out of curiosity, am I the only one who still owns copies of AND reads books > > I loved as a child? Books which are found in the young adult section? I > > just picked up a new one today that I saw it and smiled because I remembered > > reading it so many years ago. > > No, of course not :-). > Damn straight, I'm still continually combing second-hand bookstores (my favorite ones are the ones that have been built up around one or two cats) for old copies of the Destroyer series by Murphy and Sapir. Some of the pop culture references are dated, but they're still funny as hell. -Scott From randomhonky at hotmail.com Thu Jul 18 18:20:20 2002 From: randomhonky at hotmail.com (T J) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 21:20:20 -0400 Subject: CUrrent Theory: NEcromancer Message-ID: My current theory revolves around the idea that the necromancer is in actuallity the BAroness Kathana e'MArish'Chala. Firstly this is currently only derived from jhereg and TPG though i am looking for more info. In jhereg Vlad tells us the necromancer is a painter and painted the picture of the dieing drgaon hanging in morrolans castle, also he explain that Katana E'M'archala painted the cieling of Castle Black. I am guessing form the extra apostrophe in the last name he ment the baroness but got her first name a little wrong. And we all know the baroness painted a picture of a dieing dragon that belonged to Lord Rollandar e'Drien, if memory serves e'Drien is the line fo which Morrolan is a member, and the name is quite close. so i propose that the necromancer is indeed the baroness, and that vlad only recognizes the paintings as being by different people because of his lack of knowledge. Perhaps he only knows the painters through what he has over heard, or been told, in which cas eperhaps few people (only sethra) know who the necromancer truly is. Well, there it is. Enjoy. Any info to help or hurt this theory would be greatly appreciated THomas J _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From singram at videotron.ca Thu Jul 18 18:25:11 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 21:25:11 -0400 Subject: the next vlad book? References: Message-ID: <06d001c22ec3$20f93aa0$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barbara Baj" To: Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 5:12 PM Subject: RE: the next vlad book? > Zelazny at his best was a Short Story writer, in my opinion. My favorite of his works is _Creatures of Light and Darkness_, which according to him, he wrote for the sheer fun of it. > > _Night of the Lonesome October_, if you can find it, is another 'great'. _Lord of Light_ won awards, was a good book, but somehow will not win a place in my heart. Any of his short story collections I think you'll not be disappointed in. > Agreed! I remember his short stories to be a lot of fun, and _Night of (at?) the Lonesome October_ was a very fun book. I reread it once every few years or so. -Scott From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Jul 18 18:25:31 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 21:25:31 -0400 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <06d001c22ec3$20f93aa0$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: <6A43A542-9AB6-11D6-8FC5-00039386187A@adelphia.net> > >> > Agreed! I remember his short stories to be a lot of fun, and _Night of > (at?) > the Lonesome October_ was a very fun book. I reread it once every few > years > or so. > > -Scott > > Another good story is "Why I Left Harry's All Night Hamburgers" by Lawrence Watt-Evans. It's very good, if you can find a copy. ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From jedijane at yahoo.com Thu Jul 18 20:21:41 2002 From: jedijane at yahoo.com (Michelle Goepp) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 20:21:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vlad Interview Questions In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020718040633.00a6e580@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <20020719032141.41815.qmail@web12307.mail.yahoo.com> --- Steven Brust wrote: > My preference would be to take them as they come, > but Vlad doesn't have the > patience for it. If I can convince the asshole to > answer them at all, it > had better be all in one shot. Oh, golly. Have I died? Is this heaven? :-) Will someone please add this question to the list: Mr. Taltos: Have you ever wondered if memories of your past incarnation affect how some of your acquaintences deal with you? If so, why haven't you gone to see Sethra about that past life? Thanks! ===== Michelle "Black holes are where God divided by zero." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com From andrew at networkharmoni.com.au Thu Jul 18 20:28:08 2002 From: andrew at networkharmoni.com.au (Andrew Bailey) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:28:08 +0800 Subject: Kelly (long) was Re: the next vlad book? References: <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> <20020717213834.GB20035@infodancer.org> <3D360EE0.3060001@networkharmoni.com.au> <20020718023444.GA27548@infodancer.org> <200207180448.g6I4mp625999@salome.uchicago.edu> <5.1.0.14.0.20020718040045.00a6caf0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <3D378748.2050301@networkharmoni.com.au> Steven Brust wrote: > At 01:17 PM 7/18/2002 +0800, Andrew Bailey wrote: > > >> Anyway hard line Trotskyites irritate me > > > Trotskyists, not Trotskyites, please. > How about just Trots :) Though thinking about it Trotskyists probably wouldn't be annoying , Trotskyites however..... Andrew. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Thu Jul 18 20:49:17 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 23:49:17 -0400 Subject: Comfort shelf References: Message-ID: <3D378C3D.2F01227@earthlink.net> "A. Nonymous" wrote: > > I'll admit, it does really help to pick the Belgariad up at a relatively > young age and get attached to the characters then. > I think I was nine or ten when I first read them and Silk is still one of my > heroes. I forgot to list Eddings as part of my comfort shelf. Reading one of his books is like getting together with an old friend. Sure, some things have changed, but the core is still the same, and thus is the dilemma; his stuff will always be familiar (and, to me, comforting), but the other edge of that sword is that his stuff will be repetitive in theme and in plot. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From rone at ennui.org Thu Jul 18 20:45:01 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (figmentality) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 20:45:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kelly (long) was Re: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <3D360EE0.3060001@networkharmoni.com.au> Message-ID: <20020719034501.8331826E26@boredom.ennui.org> Andrew Bailey writes: Why? Well he is a well read, highly intelligent individual who understands social systems quite well, but for some reason is completely unable to see why his marxist revolution is doomed to failure. That depends on how you consider it a failure. He has decided that his people should not live the way they do any longer. If he topples the Empire, he wins. If the Empire slaughters them, they are no longer living the way they were, so it's also a win. The Jenoine? He wouldn't, would he? He might. It seems unlikely they would. Anyways sorry for the long rant, but he profoundly irritates me. He's an irritating fellow, and he seems to revel in it. He has, even for an Easterner, a remarkably short sight. Good thing there aren't any people like that in our world. rone -- Constancy of the speed of light is a conclusion, yes it is a conclusion based on nonconvincing, irrational assumptions. WHAT IS LIGHT?! Whose light? From what sourse? Please do not mention electronagnetics - the same applies to them. - Alexander Abian From rone at ennui.org Thu Jul 18 20:48:30 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (figmentality) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 20:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Zelazny In-Reply-To: <002901c22dfd$3d680c00$6c845f41@idirect.com> Message-ID: <20020719034830.7E7BC26E29@boredom.ennui.org> Ian sympatico writes: If anyone has not read Zelazny yet I don't know why they are on this list! Permit me a little blasphemy, but i finally picked up _Lord of Light_ some months ago, and while it was good, it certainly didn't seem to be "all that". Certainly not as good as, say, _American Gods_, or more topically, _Agyar_. I expect people will recommend me the Amber books, so i'll just say i have them on my "library" list. rone -- Constancy of the speed of light is a conclusion, yes it is a conclusion based on nonconvincing, irrational assumptions. WHAT IS LIGHT?! Whose light? From what sourse? Please do not mention electronagnetics - the same applies to them. - Alexander Abian From rone at ennui.org Thu Jul 18 20:50:47 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (figmentality) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 20:50:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Stephenson In-Reply-To: <15670.24489.420949.513670@eris.io.com> Message-ID: <20020719035047.B38A226E2A@boredom.ennui.org> Joshua Kronengold writes: Brad writes: >For what it is worth, Stephenson does not think that The Big U was >all that good. So I've heard. He's wrong, though -- it's one of his best books. I'd like Stephenson more if he ever decided to finish his books. rone -- Constancy of the speed of light is a conclusion, yes it is a conclusion based on nonconvincing, irrational assumptions. WHAT IS LIGHT?! Whose light? From what sourse? Please do not mention electronagnetics - the same applies to them. - Alexander Abian From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Jul 18 21:01:41 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 18 Jul 2002 23:01:41 -0500 Subject: Zelazny In-Reply-To: <20020719034830.7E7BC26E29@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20020719034830.7E7BC26E29@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: rone at ennui.org (figmentality) writes: > Ian sympatico writes: > If anyone has not read Zelazny yet I don't know why they are on this list! > > Permit me a little blasphemy, but i finally picked up _Lord of Light_ > some months ago, and while it was good, it certainly didn't seem to be > "all that". Certainly not as good as, say, _American Gods_, or more > topically, _Agyar_. It seems to me to contain some unfortunate youthful indiscretions, stuck on around a really staggeringly wonderful book. I prefer it very *very* much to _American Gods_, which I found slow and flat. (Which makes Neil 50/50 for me; _Good Omens_ is also staggeringly wonderful, in ways that I haven't found either Neil or Terry being individually.) I think I'll just stay out of comparing Steven's work in detail to Zelazny's; I can't figure out what my win condition would be there. > I expect people will recommend me the Amber books, so i'll just say i > have them on my "library" list. Not especially. While 9 Princes was pretty special, after that they was rather weaker. And I can really find very little good to say about the second series (at least the parts I've read). -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Jul 18 21:07:09 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 18 Jul 2002 23:07:09 -0500 Subject: [DbS] TPG ch12-ch14 In-Reply-To: References: <61D8E84F.22AD4D8D.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: Thomas Yan writes: > Selected notes and questions, edited to reduce duplicates with KG's notes. > ** pp135-143. ch14 "Eleemosynary Behavior is Sometimes Rewarded" > > {Merriam-Webster: "eleemosynary", adjective: "of, relating to, or > supported by charity"} Also a very fine play by Lee Blessing. > pp135-136: [Pel:G'aereth] dispatches; 6 witnesses = 6 different reports = > (according to Athyra philosopher Hydragaar) 6 different events; > Daridd of Diar-by-the-Bennaat is right: that's overreacting > {Heh. I hadn't noticed that name was like David Dyer-Bennet before now. > Hydragaar appears to be a corruption of Heidegger (Existentialism dude). > Hm, reincarnation doesn't seem totally impossible....} Strange coincidence, eh? :-) You might try comparing the name of the artist/dragonlord to that of the illustrator of the Steeldragon Press edition of _To Reign In Hell_, too. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From mneme at io.com Thu Jul 18 21:17:23 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 23:17:23 -0500 Subject: Zelazny In-Reply-To: <20020719034830.7E7BC26E29@boredom.ennui.org> References: <002901c22dfd$3d680c00$6c845f41@idirect.com> <20020719034830.7E7BC26E29@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <15671.37587.158409.458405@hagbard.io.com> figmentality writes: >I expect people will recommend me the Amber books, so i'll just say i >have them on my "library" list. Heavens, why? I mean, the first series is a lot of fun...but it's not much more than a cool light fantasy. _Creatures of Light and Darkness_, now...or _Jack of Shadows_, or a bunch of others... I like _Lord of Light_ a lot...but I haven't felt an urge to reread it...unlike the two above or _Isle of the Dead_ (and I'm looking forward to reading _To Die in Italbar_, which if I've read, I don't remember very well). -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breath, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From den at monger.net Thu Jul 18 21:47:43 2002 From: den at monger.net (Dennis Higbee) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 21:47:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Stephenson In-Reply-To: <20020719035047.B38A226E2A@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jul 2002, figmentality wrote: > Joshua Kronengold writes: > Brad writes: > >For what it is worth, Stephenson does not think that The Big U was > >all that good. > So I've heard. He's wrong, though -- it's one of his best books. > > I'd like Stephenson more if he ever decided to finish his books. You know, I just don't get that. I've read two Stephensons, _Snow Crash_ and _The Diamond Age_, and neither felt incomplete to me. tDA does end suddenly, but I think he gets to where he's going and as for SC, I don't see why anyone would think the story is not complete. What else do you want? -Dennis From rone at ennui.org Thu Jul 18 22:32:40 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (figmentality) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 22:32:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Stephenson In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020719053240.8ADF526E25@boredom.ennui.org> Dennis Higbee writes: On Thu, 18 Jul 2002, figmentality wrote: > I'd like Stephenson more if he ever decided to finish his books. You know, I just don't get that. I've read two Stephensons, _Snow Crash_ and _The Diamond Age_, and neither felt incomplete to me. tDA does end suddenly, but I think he gets to where he's going and as for SC, I don't see why anyone would think the story is not complete. What else do you want? A pony? rone -- Constancy of the speed of light is a conclusion, yes it is a conclusion based on nonconvincing, irrational assumptions. WHAT IS LIGHT?! Whose light? From what sourse? Please do not mention electronagnetics - the same applies to them. - Alexander Abian From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Jul 19 00:38:05 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 02:38:05 -0500 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020718040633.00a6e580@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020717182931.02f02d90@pop3.lvcm.com> <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020717182931.02f02d90@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020718040633.00a6e580@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <20020719073805.GH27548@infodancer.org> On Thu, Jul 18, 2002 at 04:08:19AM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: > At 10:11 PM 7/17/2002 -0500, Matthew Hunter wrote: > >Steve, would you prefer to take them as they come, or should I > >compile a list and get people to vote on questions to include or > >the like? > My preference would be to take them as they come, but Vlad doesn't have the > patience for it. If I can convince the asshole to answer them at all, it > had better be all in one shot. Well, over the course of a full day, I only got two more proposed questions, so with no further ado... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . The Official Press Questionaire for Vlad Taltos, (ex-)Baronet of the Jhereg, Imperial Count of Some Nameless Area he's never visited, etc: 0) Is this thing on? Testing, testing, 1 2 3... 1) You go through life-threatening adventures on a regular basis, while the tales of your exploits are presented to others as witty entertainment, even a measure of comedy. Does this bother you? Do you have anything to say, directly, to those people who are following your adventures as an evening's passtime? Are you comfortable existing as a role-model for a generation of foreign children? 2) What *really* happened to your finger? 3) No, no, the TRUTH about your finger? 4) How do you feel about being a fa-... oh, no, that would be rude. 5) Are you aware that your "publisher" (or perhaps publicist?) is working with another individual, one "Paarfi", whose tales are in direct competition with yours? (If so, is Paarfi perhaps slated for elimination? ;)) 6) In some of your tales, you have mentioned suspicions that your memory had been altered at some point. You have so far failed to follow up on these allegations. Did it slip your mind? 7) There are a few scenes (before you met Cawti) which could be read to imply a certain amount of romantic tension between yourself and Kiera. Any comment? 8) Following your realization concerning Kiera and Sethra, have you given any further thought to the events early in your life which brought you into contact with Sethra, Morrolan, et al? 8a) And having come to said realization, how did that make you feel about the certain amount of romantic tension? (Just how dead and How UNdead, is she???) 9) Some of your fans have speculated that Kragar is Mario. Does this speculation... concern you in any way? 10) There have been accusations that you are an unreliable narrator, and occasionally shade the truth in your favor. Any comment? 11) This next question is for the reptiles. Is Vlad really as smart as he thinks he is? 12) Mr. Taltos: Have you ever wondered if memories of your past incarnation affect how some of your acquaintences deal with you? If so, why haven't you gone to see Sethra about that past life? 13) Have you visited any of the lands you rule during your recent travels? Do you plan to? Would you know if you had? -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From s.schwenk at wtal.de Fri Jul 19 01:30:34 2002 From: s.schwenk at wtal.de (Sebastian Schwenk) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:30:34 +0200 Subject: Comfort Books References: Message-ID: <022d01c22efe$d85f72a0$01c8c8c8@l5u8o3> Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > > > And another book question: Do you have "comfort" books? Sometimes, if I'm Hmm, interesting question... I guess on my "comfort shelf" there would also be Eddings, of course, right up to Belgarath/Polgara... nothing after that though :P Also the Bahzell books by David Weber, the Spiral trilogy by Michael Scott Rohan (Chase the Morning, Gates of Noon, Cloud Castles), the Nightrunner books by Lynn Flewelling, the SERRAted Edge books of Mercedes Lackey and her differ- ent co-writers. Also maybe the Adept series of Katherine Kurtz and Deborah Turner Harris, at least the first three. Not to forget "Talion: Revenant" by Michael Stackpole. And, as a fairly new addition, *taa-dah* Steven Brust's books :P Although I would define this selection more as a "reread at any time" collection ;) ~Sebastian From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jul 19 02:25:57 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 02:25:57 -0700 Subject: [DbS] TPG ch12-ch14 In-Reply-To: References: <61D8E84F.22AD4D8D.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020719022536.02f5d680@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:07 PM 7/18/2002 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >You might try comparing the name of the artist/dragonlord to that of >the illustrator of the Steeldragon Press edition of _To Reign In >Hell_, too. Don't give away the *big* secret. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jul 19 02:32:33 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 02:32:33 -0700 Subject: Comfort Books In-Reply-To: <20020718215157.GI20035@infodancer.org> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020719023200.02f5f700@pop3.lvcm.com> At 04:51 PM 7/18/2002 -0500, Matthew Hunter wrote: >On Thu, Jul 18, 2002 at 03:58:11PM -0400, Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > > All these David Eddings fans. I found his books to be too busy showing us > > what a clever conversationalist he is. He is another author that I put > in the > > same catagory as Tad Williams and Robert Jordan. > >Don't even go there. Jordan can actually be a decent writer when >he isn't trying to drag something out to 13 books. Dunno about >Tad, never could read his stuff. I really enjoyed his first book, _Tailchaser's Song_. From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Jul 19 02:28:49 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 04:28:49 -0500 Subject: Comfort Books In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020719023200.02f5f700@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020719023200.02f5f700@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <20020719092849.GA16423@infodancer.org> On Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 02:32:33AM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: > At 04:51 PM 7/18/2002 -0500, Matthew Hunter wrote: > >On Thu, Jul 18, 2002 at 03:58:11PM -0400, Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > >> All these David Eddings fans. I found his books to be too busy showing us > >> what a clever conversationalist he is. He is another author that I put > >in the > >> same catagory as Tad Williams and Robert Jordan. > > > >Don't even go there. Jordan can actually be a decent writer when > >he isn't trying to drag something out to 13 books. Dunno about > >Tad, never could read his stuff. > I really enjoyed his first book, _Tailchaser's Song_. I keep being tempted by that. Unfortunately, I've tried his Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn trilogy and couldn't get through the first book. Ditto his "Otherland" books. It's annoying. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jul 19 02:37:39 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 02:37:39 -0700 Subject: Fw: SF pet peeves In-Reply-To: <006a01c22e88$872e8cc0$0201a8c0@kelly> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020719023518.02f618a0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 01:25 PM 7/18/2002 -0500, nikki m. pill wrote: >Neil Stephenson, on the other hand, overdoes the "look how > clever I am" aspect. So do those Roberts who do the Illuminatus Trilogy. > It's like reading Tom Robbins in SF, or even worse, Gore Vidal. I can't >cope > with smug writers. Now that is a fascinating post. I agree about Neil Stephenson; I spend have his books going, "He's really clever," and the other half going, "He thinks he's really clever." And I've referred to him as sf's answer to Tom Robbins. But it would never occur to me to put Gore Vidal in that category. He's entirely different, and yet, I can see where you're coming from. I must consider this. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jul 19 02:38:29 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 02:38:29 -0700 Subject: Kelly (long) was Re: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <3D378748.2050301@networkharmoni.com.au> References: <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> <20020717213834.GB20035@infodancer.org> <3D360EE0.3060001@networkharmoni.com.au> <20020718023444.GA27548@infodancer.org> <200207180448.g6I4mp625999@salome.uchicago.edu> <5.1.0.14.0.20020718040045.00a6caf0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020719023817.02f60c80@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:28 AM 7/19/2002 +0800, Andrew Bailey wrote: >Steven Brust wrote: >>At 01:17 PM 7/18/2002 +0800, Andrew Bailey wrote: >> >>>Anyway hard line Trotskyites irritate me >> >>Trotskyists, not Trotskyites, please. > >How about just Trots :) How about not. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jul 19 02:44:47 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 02:44:47 -0700 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020719024417.00aab480@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:44 AM 7/18/2002 -0700, Jose Marquez wrote: >Brad wrote: > > > > > > Back to your regularly scheduled discussion of who Mario is.... > >My current pet theory is that Mario is Mario. A distinct character, not >masquerading as anyone we know, keeps mostly to himself, etc. Prosaic, but >very effective... We seem to have the same pet theory. I wonder if we're right? From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jul 19 02:49:09 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 02:49:09 -0700 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020719024831.02f0aec0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:19 AM 7/18/2002 -0700, Jose Marquez wrote: >I only learned of Zelazny from >Steve's mentioning him on several occasions (interviews, intro to To Reign in >Hell, etc.). I bought the Great Book of Amber omnibus last August, but I >haven't read anything else. I enjoyed the Amber series, but I don't know what >else I should pick up. _Lord of Light_ From ijamie at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 19 04:27:25 2002 From: ijamie at sympatico.ca (Ian sympatico) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 07:27:25 -0400 Subject: the next vlad book? References: <2D99B54B.0BB57010.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <004101c22f17$41fc4400$6d805f41@idirect.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 12:33 PM Subject: Re: the next vlad book? > Tad Williams is another who does NOT do it well. > Speaking of Tad Williams, I was pumped for the first two books of 'Memory ,Sorrow and Thorn but the last two books weren't as good. The same was true for the 'Otherland' series. First book was fantastic, second OK but by the third I was wading through insignificant detail in order to finish the book and see what happened to the main characters in the end. Ian From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jul 19 04:35:41 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 04:35:41 -0700 Subject: Zelazny In-Reply-To: References: <20020719034830.7E7BC26E29@boredom.ennui.org> <20020719034830.7E7BC26E29@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020719043508.02f5dec0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:01 PM 7/18/2002 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > I expect people will recommend me the Amber books, so i'll just say i > > have them on my "library" list. > >Not especially. While 9 Princes was pretty special, after that they >was rather weaker. And I can really find very little good to say >about the second series (at least the parts I've read). For me, I'd say the first two--9 Princes and Guns. Other than that nitpick, I agree. From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Fri Jul 19 06:13:17 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 08:13:17 -0500 Subject: Comfort Books References: <022d01c22efe$d85f72a0$01c8c8c8@l5u8o3> Message-ID: <3D38106D.C113A88A@attbi.com> It's a bit of a digression, but if we're discussing comfort books I have to also mention Georgette Hayer's regency novels, Laurie King's Russell/Holmes novels, and anything Lord Peter. Mia From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jul 19 06:55:39 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 09:55:39 -0400 Subject: Comfort Books Message-ID: <6D182ECD.7591F86A.0296E7C9@aol.com> In a message dated Fri, 19 Jul 2002 4:32:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > I really enjoyed his first book, _Tailchaser's Song_. Yup. That's the only book of his I liked. I tried his first big trilogy, and wanted to tear my hair out, it dragged so badly. I ended up skimming most of it, only slowing down when the actual PLOT resurfaced. Stacy From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jul 19 06:53:59 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 09:53:59 -0400 Subject: Fw: SF pet peeves Message-ID: <62D32D83.3ACFEFE8.0296E7C9@aol.com> In a message dated Fri, 19 Jul 2002 4:37:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > I must consider this. Statements like this make me worry........ Stacy From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jul 19 07:01:35 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:01:35 -0400 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version Message-ID: <6DD06697.6059356C.0296E7C9@aol.com> We're stupid to have forgotten this. We should have asked something about how it feels to be carrying around the second most powerful artifact on the entire fecking planet, and when does the culling of the gods begin? :) Stacy From ijamie at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 19 07:03:09 2002 From: ijamie at sympatico.ca (Ian sympatico) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:03:09 -0400 Subject: the next vlad book? References: Message-ID: <003201c22f2d$03f4bdc0$a2845f41@idirect.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barbara Baj" To: Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 5:12 PM Subject: RE: the next vlad book? > >> > If anyone has not read Zelazny yet I don't know why they are on this list! > Zelazny at his best was a Short Story writer, in my opinion. My favorite of his works is _Creatures of Light and Darkness_, which according to him, he wrote for the sheer fun of it. > _Night of the Lonesome October_, if you can find it, is another 'great'. _Lord of Light_ won awards, was a good book, but somehow will not win a place in my heart. Any of his short story collections I think you'll not be disappointed in. I have not heard about this one!!! > Avoid the Jane Lindskold/ Zelazny joint efforts. In my opinion, they > just aren't good, and only show painfully that his talent is gone forever. Its true that towards the end Zealzny's work was not as good as it was, and all the collaborations he did towards the end were crap. I suspect he did not do any of the actual writing, sort of like 'John Clancy's Op Center' books. But most of his earlier books were classics, Creatures of Light and Darkness Four for Tomorrow (short stories) Isle of the Dead Jack of Shadows Lord of Light My Name is Legion Roadmarks This Immortal (absolutely great) The original Amber Series (one of the best things ever written) I read somewhere that his creative process involved imbibing large quantities of either alcohol (or other substances) and then writing whatever came to mind. After I read that I did not try to hard to reconcille the contradictions in each book and just went with the flow of the story. Ian From ijamie at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 19 07:14:25 2002 From: ijamie at sympatico.ca (Ian sympatico) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:14:25 -0400 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version References: <6DD06697.6059356C.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <008d01c22f2e$9635bb20$a2845f41@idirect.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 10:01 AM Subject: Re: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version > We're stupid to have forgotten this. We should have asked something about how it feels to be carrying around the second most powerful artifact on the entire fecking planet, and when does the culling of the gods begin? :) Good question! I assume we are talking about 'Spellbreaker'. More information about where it came from and what its original purpose was would be greatly appreciated. Ian From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Jul 19 07:19:01 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:19:01 -0400 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version In-Reply-To: <008d01c22f2e$9635bb20$a2845f41@idirect.com> Message-ID: <790854F4-9B22-11D6-BDCB-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Friday, July 19, 2002, at 10:14 AM, Ian sympatico wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 10:01 AM > Subject: Re: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version > > >> We're stupid to have forgotten this. We should have asked something >> about > how it feels to be carrying around the second most powerful artifact on > the > entire fecking planet, and when does the culling of the gods begin? :) > > Good question! I assume we are talking about 'Spellbreaker'. More > information about where it came from and what its original purpose was > would > be greatly appreciated. > > Ian > > let me modify that question somewhat, if I may, to "Now that you have have the second most powerful weapon on the planet, will return to Adrinlankha (spelling) and resume your former career?" ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jul 19 07:16:24 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:16:24 -0400 Subject: the next vlad book? Message-ID: <00267EDA.111B48BC.0296E7C9@aol.com> I really loved The Night in Lonesome October until the last page and a half when I realized he wasn't going to go through with it. Then I got mad. Grrrrrrrr But I still re-read it quite frequently. I just brace myself for the ending. :) Stact From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Jul 19 07:22:55 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:22:55 -0400 Subject: Comfort Books In-Reply-To: <6D182ECD.7591F86A.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <0443340E-9B23-11D6-BDCB-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Friday, July 19, 2002, at 09:55 AM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated Fri, 19 Jul 2002 4:32:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, > skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > >> I really enjoyed his first book, _Tailchaser's Song_. > > Yup. That's the only book of his I liked. I tried his first big > trilogy, and wanted to tear my hair out, it dragged so badly. I ended > up skimming most of it, only slowing down when the actual PLOT > resurfaced. > > Stacy > > That's Memory. Sorrow and Thorn. I read all three books. 1) The Dragonbone Chair: Tight and fast paced. great book. 2) The Stone of Farewell: This one nearly killed me it was So Boring. I had a lot more patience back then for Ponderous Novels. Now-a-days, I never finish books like these. 3) To Green Angel Tower: In hardcover this baby was 1066 pages long, the longest book I've ever read. pretty good, better if it had been another trilogy instead of One Epic Tome. In other words, read this trilogy at your own risk. It's thick and the ending may not be worth it. ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jul 19 07:31:58 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:31:58 -0400 Subject: Comfort Books Message-ID: <2A4ED7B1.1C4E4647.0296E7C9@aol.com> In a message dated Fri, 19 Jul 2002 9:22:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, zizban at adelphia.net writes: > That's Memory. Sorrow and Thorn. I read all three books. The fact that I can't remember the name of the trilogy nor the three books tells you how awful I thought it was. That, and the fact that I took all three books to the used bookstore immediately upon finishing them. Stacy From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Jul 19 07:34:38 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:34:38 -0400 Subject: Comfort Books In-Reply-To: <2A4ED7B1.1C4E4647.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: On Friday, July 19, 2002, at 10:31 AM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated Fri, 19 Jul 2002 9:22:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, > zizban at adelphia.net writes: > >> That's Memory. Sorrow and Thorn. I read all three books. > > The fact that I can't remember the name of the trilogy nor the three > books tells you how awful I thought it was. That, and the fact that I > took all three books to the used bookstore immediately upon finishing > them. > > Stacy > I kept the the last one, the 1066 pager, as a monument. ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From rachael at daedala.net Fri Jul 19 07:43:23 2002 From: rachael at daedala.net (Rachael Lininger) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 09:43:23 -0500 (CDT) Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020719024417.00aab480@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: On Jul 19, Steven Brust said: >At 10:44 AM 7/18/2002 -0700, Jose Marquez wrote: >>Brad wrote: >> > >> > >> > Back to your regularly scheduled discussion of who Mario is.... >> >>My current pet theory is that Mario is Mario. A distinct character, not >>masquerading as anyone we know, keeps mostly to himself, etc. Prosaic, but >>very effective... > >We seem to have the same pet theory. I wonder if we're right? What the hell would you know? Sheesh. Rachael -- Rachael From the Dilbert Newsletter: Lininger "You should talk to her. rachael@ She is a minefield of information." daedala.net From stvitus at flash.net Fri Jul 19 08:04:06 2002 From: stvitus at flash.net (nikki m. pill) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:04:06 -0500 Subject: Dick and Jane Message-ID: <002201c22f35$87403760$0201a8c0@kelly> > By some chance, do you (or anyone, really) happen to have any "Dick and > Jane"> books for a Good Cause ? I am trying to find some for my autistic daughter > without paying an arm and a leg for them. They hold her attention, and will > be used for "learning to read" rather than collectables. Sorry, have none. Have you tried "Goodnight Moon" by Margaret Brown, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060207051/qid=1027019912/sr=2-2/ref= sr_2_2/102-7695621-5224103 or "Pat the Bunny"? http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0307120007/qid=1027019948/sr=2-1/ref= sr_2_1/102-7695621-5224103 Howbout "Millions of Cats" (author's unfortunate last name is Gag). I love them, and they've been riveting to my neices and nephews too. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0698113632/qid=1027019971/sr=1-1/ref= sr_1_1/102-7695621-5224103 Also I always loved "Where Did the Baby Go?" I spent HOURS poring over it as a child. I felt chills when, years later, I looked at the pictures again... http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/exchange-glance/Y03Y4322615Y2638632/102- 7695621-5224103 Good luck... Nikki From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Fri Jul 19 08:13:46 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:13:46 -0500 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version References: <6DD06697.6059356C.0296E7C9@aol.com> <008d01c22f2e$9635bb20$a2845f41@idirect.com> Message-ID: <3D382CA9.78FC18A9@attbi.com> Ian: It is clear that you have not read Issola yet. This has much to do with the nature and the final fate of Spellbreaker, as it used to be called. Mia From singram at videotron.ca Fri Jul 19 08:11:30 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:11:30 -0400 Subject: Comfort Books References: Message-ID: <07c701c22f36$905dc8c0$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Turkel" To: Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 10:34 AM Subject: Re: Comfort Books > > On Friday, July 19, 2002, at 10:31 AM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated Fri, 19 Jul 2002 9:22:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > zizban at adelphia.net writes: > > > >> That's Memory. Sorrow and Thorn. I read all three books. > > > > The fact that I can't remember the name of the trilogy nor the three > > books tells you how awful I thought it was. That, and the fact that I > > took all three books to the used bookstore immediately upon finishing > > them. > > > > Stacy > > > I kept the the last one, the 1066 pager, as a monument. > ------ > Chris Turkel Yes, but as a monument to what, exactly? -Scott From holden at salome.uchicago.edu Fri Jul 19 08:10:22 2002 From: holden at salome.uchicago.edu (Brad) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:10:22 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version In-Reply-To: <790854F4-9B22-11D6-BDCB-00039386187A@adelphia.net> (message from Chris Turkel on Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:19:01 -0400) References: <790854F4-9B22-11D6-BDCB-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <200207191510.g6JFAM628717@salome.uchicago.edu> >Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:19:01 -0400 >From: Chris Turkel > >let me modify that question somewhat, if I may, to "Now that you have >have the second most powerful weapon on the planet, will return to >Adrinlankha (spelling) and resume your former career?" I think it is pretty clear that Vlad has given up on his previous..err...line of work. This whole journey into the wilderness thing has made Vlad a rather different person, more introspective, more inclined to do good and less likely to immediately assume all problems can be solved by killing the right person. Vlad's real skill is working as a detective, sniffing out conspiracies and the like. That is where his future lies. Though how Steve is gonna deal with this whole great weapon thing is beyond me. brad From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Jul 19 08:11:04 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:11:04 -0400 Subject: Comfort Books In-Reply-To: <07c701c22f36$905dc8c0$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: On Friday, July 19, 2002, at 11:11 AM, Scott Ingram wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Turkel" > To: > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 10:34 AM > Subject: Re: Comfort Books > > >> >> On Friday, July 19, 2002, at 10:31 AM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >> >>> In a message dated Fri, 19 Jul 2002 9:22:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, >>> zizban at adelphia.net writes: >>> >>>> That's Memory. Sorrow and Thorn. I read all three books. >>> >>> The fact that I can't remember the name of the trilogy nor the three >>> books tells you how awful I thought it was. That, and the fact that I >>> took all three books to the used bookstore immediately upon finishing >>> them. >>> >>> Stacy >>> >> I kept the the last one, the 1066 pager, as a monument. >> ------ >> Chris Turkel > > Yes, but as a monument to what, exactly? > > -Scott > > To "wow, I actually read that big bloated boat anchor! Never again!" :-) ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Jul 19 08:11:59 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:11:59 -0400 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version In-Reply-To: <200207191510.g6JFAM628717@salome.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: On Friday, July 19, 2002, at 11:10 AM, Brad wrote: > >> Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:19:01 -0400 >> From: Chris Turkel >> >> let me modify that question somewhat, if I may, to "Now that you have >> have the second most powerful weapon on the planet, will return to >> Adrinlankha (spelling) and resume your former career?" > > I think it is pretty clear that Vlad has given up on his > previous..err...line of work. > > This whole journey into the wilderness thing has made Vlad a rather > different person, more introspective, more inclined to do good and > less likely to immediately assume all problems can be solved by > killing the right person. > > Vlad's real skill is working as a detective, sniffing out conspiracies > and the like. That is where his future lies. Though how Steve is > gonna deal with this whole great weapon thing is beyond me. > > brad > let's ask him: Steve, how you going to deal with all this great weapon thing? ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From rsuitor at cjwrfs.net Fri Jul 19 08:11:33 2002 From: rsuitor at cjwrfs.net (Richard Suitor) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:11:33 -0400 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <00267EDA.111B48BC.0296E7C9@aol.com> References: <00267EDA.111B48BC.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:16:24 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >I really loved The Night in Lonesome October until the last page > and a half when I realized he wasn't going to go through with it. > Then I got mad. Grrrrrrrr Go through with it? Not sure what you mean. Jack is obviously the only survivor present of all of the previous outcomes - we know he has always been there, and the only recognitions seem to be by reputation. Without the wands being switched he is possibly strong enough to win anyway. As it is he gets a lot of help from the Count and the Wolfman, and his only effective adversary is - - himself, wielding the wrong wand. Richard From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jul 19 08:39:26 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:39:26 -0400 Subject: the next vlad book? Message-ID: <2B4CA579.33A0946F.0296E7C9@aol.com> In a message dated Fri, 19 Jul 2002 9:43:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, rachael at daedala.net writes: > What the hell would you know? -spews tea all over her computer screen- Stacy From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jul 19 08:41:00 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:41:00 -0400 Subject: Comfort Books Message-ID: <18CAF37C.51427DB6.0296E7C9@aol.com> In a message dated Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:11:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, singram at videotron.ca writes: > Yes, but as a monument to what, exactly? Sheer stupid stubborness at refusing to NOT stop reading a series even when it's awful and you know you're wasting your time? That's why I kept reading. I kept thinking, "Oh, maybe it'll get better. Or....I'm so close, I might as well finish now." Stacy From grapawy at yahoo.com Fri Jul 19 08:42:58 2002 From: grapawy at yahoo.com (Gregory Rapawy) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 08:42:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vlad and Mario (Re: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version) In-Reply-To: <200207191510.g6JFAM628717@salome.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <20020719154258.29168.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brad wrote: [...] > Vlad's real skill is working as a detective, > sniffing out conspiracies and the like. That is > where his future lies. Though how Steve is gonna > deal with this whole great weapon thing is beyond me. On a tangent (though one that takes us back towards another thread), it's interesting to see the parallels between Mario as depicted in _Five Hundred Years After_ (by Paarfi, through Steve) and Vlad. _Five Hundred Years_ is only briefly told from Mario's perspective (even indirectly), but I can very easily see how it could have been, and how it would have looked much like a Vlad story: * the initial offer (too big to pass up -- certainly a tendency of Vlad's we are familiar with from _Jhereg_ and _Taltos_); * the carefully planned first attempt that goes awry; * the sudden veer into emotional entanglement with Aliera (reminiscent of Vlad's meeting with Cawti, as in _Yendi_); * the development of a brilliant and dangerous scheme (motivated in part by vengeance and in part by love, as in _Teckla_ and _Phoenix_) from a chance- overheard remark (similar to Vlad's confrontation with Aliera in _Jhereg_ that leads to her faked death); * and the spectacular denouement (admittedly far more destructive than anything Vlad has done yet, but Vlad's own series is less than halfway through). Possible reasons for the correspondence, not mutually exclusive: (1) purely artistic (Steve is playing with recurring themes -- perhaps _Five Hundred Years_ can be read as a variation, much like _Athyra_ or _Orca_, told from a different point of view); (2) Vlad's character (consider Kiera's remark in _Orca_ that Vlad has a "superstitious dread" of Mario -- perhaps Vlad views Mario (who after all has an Eastern name) as a role model of sorts -- as we don't know *when* Vlad is telling his stories, I'm not sure whether we can rule out his having read Paarfi, and there is certainly a comment in _Orca_ that indicates he is familiar with Paarfi's work -- the "cut to pieces" line); (3) Mario as one of Vlad's reincarnations (probably ruled out by Steve's comments here and elsewhere regarding Mario -- both that he "is Mario" and that he is still alive at the time of _Jhereg_ although I think it is an interesting hypothesis from the purely textual evidence). -- Greg __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jul 19 08:42:46 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:42:46 -0400 Subject: the next vlad book? Message-ID: <3FD6A80D.2924A573.0296E7C9@aol.com> In a message dated Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:11:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, rsuitor at cjwrfs.net writes: > Go through with it? Not sure what you mean. Jack is obviously the > only survivor present of all of the previous outcomes - we know he > has always been there, and the only recognitions seem to be by > reputation. Without the wands being switched he is possibly strong > enough to win anyway. As it is he gets a lot of help from the Count > and the Wolfman, and his only effective adversary is - - > himself, > wielding the wrong wand. The story states that the losing side is supposed to be destroyed. Yet that doesn't happen. Not only does he save the world, but the girl and her familiar and they should have been dead. Stacy From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Jul 19 08:42:55 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:42:55 -0400 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <2B4CA579.33A0946F.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <316359F3-9B2E-11D6-BDCB-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Friday, July 19, 2002, at 11:39 AM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated Fri, 19 Jul 2002 9:43:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, > rachael at daedala.net writes: > >> What the hell would you know? > > -spews tea all over her computer screen- > > Stacy Us authors may seem like know it alls, but we're not. Most of the time. Well, usually we are, got a problem with that?? :-) ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jul 19 08:44:04 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:44:04 -0400 Subject: Great Weapons (was: interview) Message-ID: <35EDC2A8.23C63B72.0296E7C9@aol.com> In a message dated Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:11:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, zizban at adelphia.net writes: > let's ask him: Steve, how you going to deal with all this > great weapon > thing? Actually, I have a similar question: do you know the names of all Seventeen Great Weapons? Will we eventually "meet" them all? Stacy From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Jul 19 08:44:35 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:44:35 -0400 Subject: Comfort Books In-Reply-To: <18CAF37C.51427DB6.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <6D38F56A-9B2E-11D6-BDCB-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Friday, July 19, 2002, at 11:41 AM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:11:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, > singram at videotron.ca writes: > >> Yes, but as a monument to what, exactly? > > Sheer stupid stubborness at refusing to NOT stop reading a series even > when it's awful and you know you're wasting your time? That's why I > kept reading. I kept thinking, "Oh, maybe it'll get better. Or....I'm > so close, I might as well finish now." > > Stacy It's like Robert Jordan: I had so much time invested, why stop now? ------ Chris Turkel Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From lisa at spindot.com Fri Jul 19 08:47:31 2002 From: lisa at spindot.com (Lisa Grant Coffin) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:47:31 -0400 Subject: Comfort Books References: Message-ID: <00db01c22f3b$98a2feb0$1401a8c0@HAL1> hello everyone i've been following the strand and thought i would add some authors i re-read: kate elliot tolkien of course steven brust's vlad & khaavren, also brokedown p. robin hobb- both the farseer series and the ship of magic series lynn flewelling's nightrunner series (i think someone else mentioned this) katheryn kurtz, both the templars and the co-written adepts guy gavriel kay, sarantium series, tigana, and summer tree etc raymond feist's 18 or so books. i loved them. mercedes lackey; although one can only re-read them once every few years. i like the bards too weiss & hickman's dragonlance chronicles. (my ten year old son loves them now) -there's just too many fond memories to cause me to look at these any other way eddings (same reason as weiss & hickman) melanie rawn roger zelazny ( just read the entire amber chronicles omnibus. life changing read, disagreeing with every one who nitpicked him) anne perry- victorian mysteries george r.r. martin - the sweeping epic thing for a space of time david drake - another sweeping epic thing for another space of time mary stewart's merlin trilogy dave duncan-the 'sword' series and the 'blade' series. although there is a plot device in the third sword book that irritated me to no end. anne rice- in a cold winter, re-read is fun (any of the vampire chronicles) gene wolfe's torturer trilogy. ya books: ursula k leguin l'engle chronicles of narnia r.l. stevenson mark twain harry potter any lloyd alexander diane duane's witch series ibbotson's 'secret of platform 13, island of the aunts, which witch' roald dahl /. /. /. / ./. /. /. /. /. /. /. / lgc's weblog: http://radio.weblogs.com/0107188/ From rsuitor at cjwrfs.net Fri Jul 19 09:44:24 2002 From: rsuitor at cjwrfs.net (Richard Suitor) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:44:24 -0400 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <3FD6A80D.2924A573.0296E7C9@aol.com> References: <3FD6A80D.2924A573.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:42:46 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >The story states that the losing side is supposed to be destroyed. >Yet that doesn't happen. Not only does he save the world, but the >girl and her familiar and they should have been dead. Ahh. Yes. That was the Pack Rat's doing. They wound up, inadvertently, on the winning side. Brings up a good point. Just what defines that? Grey's earlier experience indicates that nominal adherence doesn't count for much. So why isn't Jack penalized? They all know him by now? Snuff redeems him in time by carping the baculum? Shows the virtue of keeping a bottle of good port on hand. Richard From mneme at io.com Fri Jul 19 09:50:05 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:50:05 -0500 Subject: Comfort Books In-Reply-To: <20020719092849.GA16423@infodancer.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020719023200.02f5f700@pop3.lvcm.com> <20020719092849.GA16423@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <15672.17213.316226.366922@hagbard.io.com> Matthew Hunter writes: >Unfortunately, I've tried his Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn trilogy >and couldn't get through the first book. Ditto his "Otherland" >books. It's annoying. I wasn't enthralled by Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn, though it does have some interesting stuff (along with the stereotypical fantasy and turgid writing). OTOH..._Tailchaser's Song_ was the book that was good enough for me to -bother- with the MS&T series; it's just really good, and -not- stereotypical fantasy (or badly written). -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breath, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jul 19 09:51:22 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:51:22 -0400 Subject: the next vlad book? Message-ID: <5C4B104F.3538558D.0296E7C9@aol.com> In a message dated Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:44:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, rsuitor at cjwrfs.net writes: > Ahh. Yes. That was the Pack Rat's doing. They wound up, > inadvertently, on the winning side. Brings up a good point. Just > what defines that? Grey's earlier experience indicates that nominal > adherence doesn't count for much. So why isn't Jack penalized? > They all know him by now? Snuff redeems him in time by carping the > baculum? Shows the virtue of keeping a bottle of good port > on hand. Well, Jack's not the one who should have been penalized since his side "won" - they managed to close the gateway. It's the witch and her familiar who were thus on the losing side (they wanted the gateway to open) and who should have been destroyed. Stacy From mneme at io.com Fri Jul 19 09:57:26 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:57:26 -0500 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version In-Reply-To: <200207191510.g6JFAM628717@salome.uchicago.edu> References: <790854F4-9B22-11D6-BDCB-00039386187A@adelphia.net> <200207191510.g6JFAM628717@salome.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <15672.17654.885048.982839@hagbard.io.com> Brad writes: >>From: Chris Turkel >>let me modify that question somewhat, if I may, to "Now that you have >>have the second most powerful weapon on the planet, will return to >>Adrinlankha (spelling) and resume your former career?" >I think it is pretty clear that Vlad has given up on his >previous..err...line of work. You mean "line of 'work'", yes? I may have a friend who knows about that. :) >less likely to immediately assume all problems can be solved by >killing the right person. More importantly, having someone he revered and trusted totally screw him over by giving him some 'work' which hurt quite a number of people he cared about extremely badly, and didn't even accomplish its (stated) purpose [I do wonder if that was it's real purpose -- could its real purpose have been to sour Vlad on 'work'? Or even to force him to totally change his way of life, as it did? The ways of gods are subtle; the ways of Verra, doubly so.] seem to have soured him on the whole idea. Imagine that. >Vlad's real skill is working as a detective, sniffing out conspiracies >and the like. That is where his future lies. Yes -- he was extremely good at this even when he 'worked', and, in fact, it was his primary skill in said 'work' (in addition to kicking butt). >Though how Steve is gonna deal with this whole great weapon thing is >beyond me. Remember that kicking butt? Mind, I've never been sure -how- a GW protects its wielder -- will it actually stop pointy things thrown at you or increase your fencing skill? Or is it simply that it makes you a lot harder to touch/stop with magic, and the whole "kill with a scratch" thing? -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breath, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From mneme at io.com Fri Jul 19 10:02:42 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:02:42 -0500 Subject: Vlad and Mario (Re: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version) In-Reply-To: <20020719154258.29168.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> References: <200207191510.g6JFAM628717@salome.uchicago.edu> <20020719154258.29168.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <15672.17970.891652.654453@hagbard.io.com> Gregory Rapawy writes: >* the initial offer (too big to pass up -- certainly > a tendency of Vlad's we are familiar with from > _Jhereg_ and _Taltos_); Though it's fairly clear, from the amounts that are talked about, that somewhere in there Vlad got addicted to murder -- he tends to do it even when the sums in question are -far- less than he gets from his normal business, and prices his stuff by the target rather than by the danger/risk, which causes screw-ups like that in Phoenix. Mind, this is less true in _Taltos_, where he's less affluent and the money's better, and in _Jhereg_, the money's -really- good. > stories, I'm not sure whether we can rule out his > having read Paarfi, and there is certainly a > comment in _Orca_ that indicates he is familiar > with Paarfi's work -- the "cut to pieces" line); Vlad mentions that he reads Paarfi at at least one point. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breath, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From ambyrglow at SoftHome.net Fri Jul 19 10:13:16 2002 From: ambyrglow at SoftHome.net (Claire Rojstaczer) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 13:13:16 -0400 Subject: Vlad and Mario (Re: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version) In-Reply-To: <15672.17970.891652.654453@hagbard.io.com> References: <200207191510.g6JFAM628717@salome.uchicago.edu> <20020719154258.29168.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> <15672.17970.891652.654453@hagbard.io.com> Message-ID: > >Vlad mentions that he reads Paarfi at at least one point. I thought it was Cawti that was reading Paarfi? I forget what book that shows up in. From mneme at io.com Fri Jul 19 10:18:48 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:18:48 -0500 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <5C4B104F.3538558D.0296E7C9@aol.com> References: <5C4B104F.3538558D.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <15672.18936.83286.412398@hagbard.io.com> Starshadw at aol.com writes: >Well, Jack's not the one who should have been penalized since his >side "won" - they managed to close the gateway. It's the witch and >her familiar who were thus on the losing side (they wanted the gateway >to open) and who should have been destroyed. Except that it's not clear that the losing side -is- destroyed; there's a lot of misinformation floating around, and it's clear that Jack expects to survive even if he loses (thus the Things). -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breath, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From mneme at io.com Fri Jul 19 10:19:14 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:19:14 -0500 Subject: Vlad and Mario (Re: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version) In-Reply-To: References: <200207191510.g6JFAM628717@salome.uchicago.edu> <20020719154258.29168.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> <15672.17970.891652.654453@hagbard.io.com> Message-ID: <15672.18962.883873.707218@hagbard.io.com> Claire Rojstaczer writes: >>Vlad mentions that he reads Paarfi at at least one point. >I thought it was Cawti that was reading Paarfi? I forget what book >that shows up in. Orca, I think -- you may be right about it being Cawti, though I'm not sure. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breath, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From moghan_david at yahoo.com Fri Jul 19 10:34:32 2002 From: moghan_david at yahoo.com (Robert Opramolla) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:34:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version In-Reply-To: <15672.17654.885048.982839@hagbard.io.com> Message-ID: <20020719173432.69786.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com> Spoiler for Issola . . . Joshua Kronengold wrote: Mind, I've never been sure -how- a GW protects its wielder -- will it actually stop pointy things thrown at you or increase your fencing skill? Or is it simply that it makes you a lot harder to touch/stop with magic, and the whole "kill with a scratch" thing? Great Weapons do not make you an unstoppable killing machines. I remember Morralon face down in the dirt, even with Blackwand! And he is a much better wielder of the sword and magic then Vlad. To borrow on of Mr. Brust Quotes "A knife in the back will...." I think you get the idea. Any one can be set up. Every one thought the Emperor was untouchable. Along came Mario, dead Emperor! I believe that each GW has a purpose. Pathfinder obviously finds things. What will be interesting is the conversations between the three of them, Vlad, Looish (Sp) and God Slayer. But I imagine that it will have Telda's personality. Perhaps our boy, will learn some manners after all. I've rambled enough Rob --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes From ijamie at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 19 10:38:36 2002 From: ijamie at sympatico.ca (Ian sympatico) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 13:38:36 -0400 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version References: <790854F4-9B22-11D6-BDCB-00039386187A@adelphia.net><200207191510.g6JFAM628717@salome.uchicago.edu> <15672.17654.885048.982839@hagbard.io.com> Message-ID: <002f01c22f4b$1d0ae0a0$a2845f41@idirect.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joshua Kronengold" To: "Brad" Cc: Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 12:57 PM Subject: Re: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version > Brad writes: > Mind, I've never been sure -how- a GW protects its wielder -- will it > actually stop pointy things thrown at you or increase your fencing > skill? Or is it simply that it makes you a lot harder to touch/stop with > magic, and the whole "kill with a scratch" thing? > I can't remember which Vlad book it is or even if it is Aliera or Morrolan who mentions that a GW can hold the soul of it's owner and thus prevent a Morganti weapon from destroying it. Ian From holden at salome.uchicago.edu Fri Jul 19 10:41:28 2002 From: holden at salome.uchicago.edu (Brad) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:41:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Vlad and Mario (Re: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version) In-Reply-To: <15672.18962.883873.707218@hagbard.io.com> (message from Joshua Kronengold on Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:19:14 -0500) References: <200207191510.g6JFAM628717@salome.uchicago.edu> <20020719154258.29168.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> <15672.17970.891652.654453@hagbard.io.com> <15672.18962.883873.707218@hagbard.io.com> Message-ID: <200207191741.g6JHfSh29000@salome.uchicago.edu> >From: Joshua Kronengold >Orca, I think -- you may be right about it being Cawti, though I'm not >sure. It was Cawti and it was in Phoenix. Vlad says she is reading one of Paarfi's "histories" which should tell you what Vlad thinks of them. From mneme at io.com Fri Jul 19 10:49:32 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:49:32 -0500 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version In-Reply-To: <002f01c22f4b$1d0ae0a0$a2845f41@idirect.com> References: <15672.17654.885048.982839@hagbard.io.com> <20020719173432.69786.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com> <790854F4-9B22-11D6-BDCB-00039386187A@adelphia.net> <200207191510.g6JFAM628717@salome.uchicago.edu> <002f01c22f4b$1d0ae0a0$a2845f41@idirect.com> Message-ID: <15672.20780.831021.854370@hagbard.io.com> Spoilers (for Issola, at least) ahoy! Ian sympatico writes: >I can't remember which Vlad book it is or even if it is Aliera or Morrolan >who mentions that a GW can hold the soul of it's owner and thus prevent a >Morganti weapon from destroying it. Several; certainly true in Jhereg (when Morollan gets killed). But the fact is that that's Just One Trick -- it certainly won't protect you from a knife in the back (though having a jhereg lookout can help with that last). and, Robert Opramolla writes: > Joshua Kronengold wrote: >>Mind, I've never been sure -how- a GW protects its wielder -- will it >>actually stop pointy things thrown at you or increase your fencing >>skill? Or is it simply that it makes you a lot harder to touch/stop with >>magic, and the whole "kill with a scratch" thing? > >Great Weapons do not make you an unstoppable killing machines. Well, the jury seems to be out on this -- Morrolan is taken out by a serious magical blast, taken by surprise...but Vlad seems pretty confident that with Godslayer at his side he can stand down pretty much anything the Jhereg are willing to throw at him, in the heart of their power. This -may- be hubris. OTOH: He's immune to Morgani weapons. He's immune to magic. He can cut through any magical defense, now matter how strong. He's openly carrying a Morganti weapon (effectively, legally, since Great Weapons are not restricted in the way normal Morganti weapons are -- or is he likely to be arrested?), which limits the number/type of people who are willing to go against him. -His- magic still works, and with Spellbreaker at his side he may be able to cut through a teleport block. He's still got his traditional defense against knives in his back, flying and scaly as it is. and, Even if he does get killed unrevifiably, Sethra can probably make him a new body, like she did Aleira. Maybe. So I guess Vlad -is- pretty difficult to touch...but I can guess where the next "normal chronology" book is likely to start, and it's not more than a few minutes after the last one ended. >I believe that each GW has a purpose. Pathfinder obviously finds things. Godslayer, despite its name, seems to do anti-magic. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From holden at salome.uchicago.edu Fri Jul 19 10:49:30 2002 From: holden at salome.uchicago.edu (Brad) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:49:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Great Weapons and You (was Re: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version) In-Reply-To: <002f01c22f4b$1d0ae0a0$a2845f41@idirect.com> (ijamie@sympatico.ca) References: <790854F4-9B22-11D6-BDCB-00039386187A@adelphia.net><200207191510.g6JFAM628717@salome.uchicago.edu> <15672.17654.885048.982839@hagbard.io.com> <002f01c22f4b$1d0ae0a0$a2845f41@idirect.com> Message-ID: <200207191749.g6JHnUr29016@salome.uchicago.edu> >From: "Ian sympatico" >> Brad writes: Actually, I didn't. >> Mind, I've never been sure -how- a GW protects its wielder -- will it >> actually stop pointy things thrown at you or increase your fencing >> skill? Or is it simply that it makes you a lot harder to touch/stop with >> magic, and the whole "kill with a scratch" thing? >> >I can't remember which Vlad book it is or even if it is Aliera or Morrolan >who mentions that a GW can hold the soul of it's owner and thus prevent a >Morganti weapon from destroying it. It is Jhereg. They use that as a trick to get Mellar to kill Aliera and thus force him to leave Castle Black. Aliera gets resurrected by the Necromancer. (Rereading that book, it strikes me as bit odd how many ridiculously powerful people Vlad seems to have just lying around waiting to do stuff for him. This gets a better later on.) Geesh. Am I the only person who spent last weekend rereading the Vlad series? The rest of you must have lives or something. brad From mneme at io.com Fri Jul 19 10:50:10 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:50:10 -0500 Subject: Vlad and Mario (Re: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version) In-Reply-To: <200207191741.g6JHfSh29000@salome.uchicago.edu> References: <200207191510.g6JFAM628717@salome.uchicago.edu> <20020719154258.29168.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> <15672.17970.891652.654453@hagbard.io.com> <15672.18962.883873.707218@hagbard.io.com> <200207191741.g6JHfSh29000@salome.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <15672.20818.451035.619001@hagbard.io.com> Brad writes: >>From: Joshua Kronengold >>Orca, I think -- you may be right about it being Cawti, though I'm not >>sure. >It was Cawti and it was in Phoenix. Vlad says she is reading one of >Paarfi's "histories" which should tell you what Vlad thinks of them. Pretty accurately...which may, or may not mean he's read them. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From mneme at io.com Fri Jul 19 10:51:14 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:51:14 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons and You (was Re: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version) In-Reply-To: <200207191749.g6JHnUr29016@salome.uchicago.edu> References: <790854F4-9B22-11D6-BDCB-00039386187A@adelphia.net> <200207191510.g6JFAM628717@salome.uchicago.edu> <15672.17654.885048.982839@hagbard.io.com> <002f01c22f4b$1d0ae0a0$a2845f41@idirect.com> <200207191749.g6JHnUr29016@salome.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <15672.20882.480142.72470@hagbard.io.com> Brad writes: >Geesh. Am I the only person who spent last weekend rereading the Vlad >series? The rest of you must have lives or something. Yes, you have no life. I just spent much of last month doing the same thing. :) -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Jul 19 10:52:35 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 19 Jul 2002 12:52:35 -0500 Subject: Comfort Books In-Reply-To: <3D38106D.C113A88A@attbi.com> References: <022d01c22efe$d85f72a0$01c8c8c8@l5u8o3> <3D38106D.C113A88A@attbi.com> Message-ID: Mia McDavid writes: > It's a bit of a digression, but if we're discussing comfort books I have > to also mention Georgette Hayer's regency novels, Laurie King's > Russell/Holmes novels, and anything Lord Peter. Yes, one can't forget Lord Peter. (Dorothy Sayers, for those not already familiar with them). Particularly of course the last two, _Gaudy Night_ and _Busman's Honeymoon_. And I recently steeled myself to read the unfinished (posthumously completed by somebody else) book, _Thrones, Dominations_, and was very pleasantly surprised (partly because my expectations weren't too high going in). It has a number of absolutely wonderful scenes, and I didn't feel the overall shape was too crude. I'm afraid I've bounced off many of the other things cited as comfort books here -- Eddings in particular. I got 5 pages into an Eddings book once. So it's nice to be able to agree with something. For me it's Heinlein, especially _The Rolling Stones_, and Doc Smith (pretty much anything). And Sayers. And _The Mote In God's Eye_. And _Dune_. And Anthony Price and Patrick O'Brian and Peter O'Donnell. It occurs to me that there may actually be people here who *don't know* about Peter O'Donnell's Modesty Blaise books. And even W.E.B Griffin (recent-historical military stuff mostly). -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Jul 19 10:58:28 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 19 Jul 2002 12:58:28 -0500 Subject: Zelazny In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020719043508.02f5dec0@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <20020719034830.7E7BC26E29@boredom.ennui.org> <20020719034830.7E7BC26E29@boredom.ennui.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020719043508.02f5dec0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: Steven Brust writes: > At 11:01 PM 7/18/2002 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > > > I expect people will recommend me the Amber books, so i'll just say i > > > have them on my "library" list. > > > >Not especially. While 9 Princes was pretty special, after that they > >was rather weaker. And I can really find very little good to say > >about the second series (at least the parts I've read). > > For me, I'd say the first two--9 Princes and Guns. Other than that > nitpick, I agree. On consideration I might go with that. The curve may be steeper after _guns_ than before. I will also say that when I finally sat down and read them all together, I found the later ones better than I remembered them from initial readings when they were new, which was pleasant. (There's room to be *considerably* less good than 9 Princes and still be pretty good, after all.) -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From tyan at twcny.rr.com Fri Jul 19 11:07:00 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: 19 Jul 2002 14:07:00 -0400 Subject: Comfort Books In-Reply-To: Chris Turkel's message of "Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:34:38 -0400" References: Message-ID: Chris Turkel writes: > I kept the the last one, the 1066 pager, as a monument. Aside: PNH likes to refer to refridgerator-sized fantasy, but I prefer the BFG-inspired, more general term BFB: big fucking book. (That's big fucking gun, not big friendly giant.) _Cyteen_ may be my favorite BFB. - tky From rsuitor at cjwrfs.net Fri Jul 19 11:05:12 2002 From: rsuitor at cjwrfs.net (Richard Suitor) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 14:05:12 -0400 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <5C4B104F.3538558D.0296E7C9@aol.com> References: <5C4B104F.3538558D.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <8lkgjukndvqdotor13qjh1g7tp8k778kvd@4ax.com> On Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:51:22 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >Well, Jack's not the one who should have been penalized since >his side "won" - they managed to close the gateway. It's the >witch and her familiar who were thus on the losing side Yes. That's what I meant about nominal adherence, and what *really* defines 'side'. >(they wanted the gateway to open) I agree they *wanted* the gateway to open, but Jill wielded the closing wand. Therefore, as far as this particular operation went, they were on the winning side. >and who should have been destroyed. When Snuff seized his master's wand, it removed all remaining significant obstacle to closing. Neither Jack nor Jill realized this until it was Too Late - then the closing port, just to make sure. So Jill, regardless of good intentions, was on the closing side - her main action was operating the closing wand. Jack's state is a little more ambiguous. He ran the opening wand very effectively, but apparently the final actions were sufficient for reprieve. Or maybe, with good reason, nothing wanted to mess with him ;<) Richard From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jul 19 12:03:36 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 15:03:36 EDT Subject: Great Weapons and You (was Re: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version) Message-ID: In a message dated 7/19/2002 12:18:02 PM Mountain Daylight Time, mneme at io.com writes: > > Yes, you have no life. > > I just spent much of last month doing the same thing. :) I've been re-reading Brust, as well as reading lots of new books lately. In fact, I just bought six new books at Media Play two nights ago. Stacy From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Fri Jul 19 12:48:25 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 14:48:25 -0500 Subject: Comfort Books (Thrones, Dominations) References: <022d01c22efe$d85f72a0$01c8c8c8@l5u8o3> <3D38106D.C113A88A@attbi.com> Message-ID: <3D386D08.99C10AFE@attbi.com> Actually, I thought the last Lord Peter was *magnificently* done. I've seen the original MS at the Inklings collection at Wheaton College--it consists of very little except a few scenes (I remember the dinner party scene--the theme of authors and faces) each re-written a few times. I understand there was also an outline. The fact that the co-author seamlessly welded those few scenes onto the scaffold of the outline and added as much of her own superstructure as she did, so well that I pretty much can't tell the difference, is *amazing*, imnsho. I would encourage any other Lord Peter fan who hasn't tried it to do so. Mia From alan at 5sc.net Fri Jul 19 13:25:31 2002 From: alan at 5sc.net (Alan) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:25:31 -0400 Subject: Comfort Books In-Reply-To: <00db01c22f3b$98a2feb0$1401a8c0@HAL1> Message-ID: *turns around and looks* I'll add a few. These are books to just reach for, whether I have 5 minutes or 5 hours and have places of honor in my collection: ....and in no particular order.... Agent of Change Jhereg Roadmarks A Brief History of Time Dragon and the George Witches of Karres The Cross-Time Engineer Callahan's Cross-Time Saloon Emergence Best Loved Poems of the American People The Gray Lensman (or any Doc Smith) Ringworld Operation Chaos Man of Steel Woman of Kleenex (in All the Myriad Ways) The Tar-Aiym Krang Jumper Myth Adventures A Stress Analysis of a Strapless Evening Gown The Secret Country "I never drempt of you in MY philosophy" :) The Rolling Stones (any Heinlein, actually) The Gods Themselves The Chosen Song of Sorcery Sector General series Jonathan Seagull Chicken The Compleat Enchanter The Weapon Shops of Isher Oath of Fealty The Pride of Chanur At The Seventh Level Thrice Upon a Time Limricks Shadow Magic Fahfrd and The Gray Mouser Hitchhikers Guide Pale Gray for Guilt (or any Travis McGee) The Warlock In Spite of Himself Rissa Kergulen Her Majesty's Wizard The Ship Who Sang Alan > -----Original Message----- > From: Lisa Grant Coffin [mailto:lisa at spindot.com] > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 11:48 > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Comfort Books > > > hello everyone > > i've been following the strand and thought i would add some authors i > re-read: > > kate elliot > tolkien > of course steven brust's vlad & khaavren, also brokedown p. > robin hobb- both the farseer series and the ship of magic series > lynn flewelling's nightrunner series (i think someone else mentioned this) > katheryn kurtz, both the templars and the co-written adepts > guy gavriel kay, sarantium series, tigana, and summer tree etc > raymond feist's 18 or so books. i loved them. > mercedes lackey; although one can only re-read them once every > few years. i > like the bards too > weiss & hickman's dragonlance chronicles. (my ten year old son loves them > now) -there's just too many fond memories to cause me to look at these any > other way > eddings (same reason as weiss & hickman) > melanie rawn > roger zelazny ( just read the entire amber chronicles omnibus. > life changing > read, disagreeing with every one who nitpicked him) > anne perry- victorian mysteries > george r.r. martin - the sweeping epic thing for a space of time > david drake - another sweeping epic thing for another space of time > mary stewart's merlin trilogy > dave duncan-the 'sword' series and the 'blade' series. although there is a > plot device in the third sword book that irritated me to no end. > anne rice- in a cold winter, re-read is fun (any of the vampire > chronicles) > gene wolfe's torturer trilogy. > > > ya books: > ursula k leguin > l'engle > chronicles of narnia > r.l. stevenson > mark twain > harry potter > any lloyd alexander > diane duane's witch series > ibbotson's 'secret of platform 13, island of the aunts, which witch' > roald dahl > /. /. /. / ./. /. /. /. /. /. /. / > lgc's weblog: http://radio.weblogs.com/0107188/ > From ijamie at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 19 13:16:12 2002 From: ijamie at sympatico.ca (Ian sympatico) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:16:12 -0400 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version References: <6DD06697.6059356C.0296E7C9@aol.com> <008d01c22f2e$9635bb20$a2845f41@idirect.com> <3D382CA9.78FC18A9@attbi.com> Message-ID: <008a01c22f61$210c90c0$a2845f41@idirect.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mia McDavid" To: "Ian sympatico" Cc: Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 11:13 AM Subject: Re: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version > Ian: > > It is clear that you have not read Issola yet. This has much to do with > the nature and the final fate of Spellbreaker, as it used to be called. > > Mia Dammit!! That's it. I'm ordering the hardcover of Issola right now!!!! No more ignoring spoilers. And I really want to know about Spellbreaker (old name apparently). Ian From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jul 19 13:30:33 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:30:33 EDT Subject: Comfort Books Message-ID: <18e.afb85ec.2a69d0e9@aol.com> In a message dated 7/19/2002 2:21:49 PM Mountain Daylight Time, alan at 5sc.net writes: > Myth Adventures I've been meaning to bring up Robert Asprin. I LOVE the Myth series. I keep hoping we'll see another one soon. I know there were plans for more. From alan at 5sc.net Fri Jul 19 13:47:05 2002 From: alan at 5sc.net (Alan) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:47:05 -0400 Subject: Comfort Books In-Reply-To: <18e.afb85ec.2a69d0e9@aol.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Starshadw at aol.com [mailto:Starshadw at aol.com] > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 16:31 > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Comfort Books > > > In a message dated 7/19/2002 2:21:49 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > alan at 5sc.net > writes: > > > > Myth Adventures > > I've been meaning to bring up Robert Asprin. I LOVE the Myth > series. I keep > hoping we'll see another one soon. I know there were plans for more. > Something M.Y.T.H. Inc. (Sept) Myth-Ion Improbable (July) Alan From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jul 19 13:39:57 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:39:57 EDT Subject: the next vlad book? Message-ID: <19e.587fe7d.2a69d31d@aol.com> In a message dated 7/19/2002 12:06:55 PM Mountain Daylight Time, rsuitor at cjwrfs.net writes: > I agree they *wanted* the gateway to open, but Jill wielded the > closing wand. Therefore, as far as this particular operation went, > they were on the winning side. I disagree. Jill was wielding the closing wand, but she was doing so without knowing. She thought she was wielding the opening wand. Her INTENTION was to open, not to close. She was on the losing side and thus should have been annihilated when the ritual ended in closing's favour. > Jack's state is a little more ambiguous. He ran the opening wand > very effectively, but apparently the final actions were sufficient > for reprieve. Or maybe, with good reason, nothing wanted to mess > with him ;<) > Again, I think it is intention and desire that matters. Jack's desire was to close, not to open - he did not know that the wands had been switched. So, he was on the winning side. I guess to me, given that we're talking about something subconscious like magic, which is the realm of the mind and soul, intention is far more important than logistical matters such as which wand one happens to have in one's hand. Stacy From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Jul 19 14:01:06 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 14:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version Message-ID: <200207192101.g6JL13G04008@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Dammit!! That's it. I'm ordering the hardcover of Issola right now!!!! > No more ignoring spoilers. And I really want to know about Spellbreaker (old > name apparently). Most assuredly go out and get it!! Not only does it answer a ton of questions, but it also piles up a nice batch of new ones, too! Besides, it's one of my favorites and the "courtesy" section is to die for... :) :) Chris "He is a lover of his country who rebukes and does not excuse its sins." - Frederick Douglass From mneme at io.com Fri Jul 19 14:10:40 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:10:40 -0500 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <19e.587fe7d.2a69d31d@aol.com> References: <19e.587fe7d.2a69d31d@aol.com> Message-ID: <15672.32848.753465.921202@hagbard.io.com> Starshadw at aol.com writes: >In a message dated 7/19/2002 12:06:55 PM Mountain Daylight Time, >rsuitor at cjwrfs.net writes: >> I agree they *wanted* the gateway to open, but Jill wielded the >> closing wand. Therefore, as far as this particular operation went, >> they were on the winning side. >I disagree. Jill was wielding the closing wand, but she was doing so without >knowing. She thought she was wielding the opening wand. Her INTENTION was >to open, not to close. She was on the losing side and thus should have been >annihilated when the ritual ended in closing's favour. ... >I guess to me, given that we're talking about >something subconscious like magic, which is the realm of the mind and soul, >intention is far more important than logistical matters such as which wand >one happens to have in one's hand. I think this is a false parallel -- yes, when writing about magic, you want to have magical reality, where intentions matter, subtext leads into text, and actions (and intentions) have consequences. However, symbols -also- matter -- the whole point of Jack having wrong wand was that -despite- his intentions, by the rules of the game (the rules being a big ugly symbol), he was on the opening side because he was holding the opening wand. The key question is whether the "death of the losing side" is based on the symbolic (technical actions matter) level, or on the subtext (intention and forshadowing matters) level -- I -think- it's clear that it's only on the symbolic level that "loser's death" is required...which means that since Jill was holding the closer's wand, she was, de facto, a closer. The second question is why Jack survives -- I'd say that rather than this being because he dropped the opener's wand, it's because he's unkillable -- he doesn't expect to die if he loses to begin with, and his (known) survival makes it clear that he's an exception to this "rule". -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From singram at videotron.ca Fri Jul 19 14:47:34 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 17:47:34 -0400 Subject: Vlad and Mario (Re: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version) References: <20020719154258.29168.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <080901c22f6d$e485a620$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregory Rapawy" To: Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 11:42 AM Subject: Vlad and Mario (Re: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version) > (3) Mario as one of Vlad's reincarnations (probably > ruled out by Steve's comments here and elsewhere > regarding Mario -- both that he "is Mario" and > that he is still alive at the time of _Jhereg_ > although I think it is an interesting hypothesis > from the purely textual evidence). > > -- Greg Yes, Steve is very insistant that "Mario is Mario" but notice that Steve has never once stated that "Vlad is Vlad"... -Scott From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Jul 19 14:54:18 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 17:54:18 -0400 Subject: Vlad and Mario (Re: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version) In-Reply-To: <080901c22f6d$e485a620$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: <137E5F28-9B62-11D6-8A02-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Friday, July 19, 2002, at 05:47 PM, Scott Ingram wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gregory Rapawy" > To: > Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 11:42 AM > Subject: Vlad and Mario (Re: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version) > > >> (3) Mario as one of Vlad's reincarnations (probably >> ruled out by Steve's comments here and elsewhere >> regarding Mario -- both that he "is Mario" and >> that he is still alive at the time of _Jhereg_ >> although I think it is an interesting hypothesis >> from the purely textual evidence). >> >> -- Greg > > Yes, Steve is very insistant that "Mario is Mario" but notice that > Steve has > never once stated that "Vlad is Vlad"... > > -Scott Why stop there? He's never said Cawti is Cawti, either :-) ------ Chris Turkel,Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From singram at videotron.ca Fri Jul 19 15:04:05 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 18:04:05 -0400 Subject: Comfort Books References: Message-ID: <088d01c22f70$f2593390$17ecca18@ingram> > > > Myth Adventures > > > > I've been meaning to bring up Robert Asprin. I LOVE the Myth > > series. I keep > > hoping we'll see another one soon. I know there were plans for more. > > > > Something M.Y.T.H. Inc. (Sept) > Myth-Ion Improbable (July) > > Alan Sadly there was some sort of legal problems involving the Myth books, and also some tax problems, which prevented him from publishing any more in the series. Check out : http://www.meishamerlin.com/ to find out about his new books. Also, check out: http://www.catch22.com/~espana/SFAuthors/SFA/Asprin,RL.php3 for all your Robert Asprin information needs. Oh yeah, don't forget this: http://www.olywa.net/cook/rlafaq.htm I nearly had a heart attack when I saw some paperback reprints of R.A's in a corner store recently. There's also a new Thieves World novel out... And a new Elric book... Ye gads... I'm in high school again! -Scott From yhcrana13 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 19 15:19:35 2002 From: yhcrana13 at hotmail.com (A. Nonymous) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 17:19:35 -0500 Subject: Comfort Books Message-ID: For comfort books I have to add any Dashiell Hammett, Raymond Chandler, James Ellroy, and Jim Thompson. The Travis McGee books by John D. MacDonald, especially The Deep Blue Good-By are great. McGee has the life I want: Sit on a houseboat slacking off until you run out of money, then solve a mystery, get paid and return to slacking. Also, the Fletch novels by Gregory McDonald are good for a laugh and a quick read. Josh Collins _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From yhcrana13 at hotmail.com Fri Jul 19 15:29:41 2002 From: yhcrana13 at hotmail.com (A. Nonymous) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 17:29:41 -0500 Subject: Comfort Books Message-ID: The Parker books by Richard Stark (aka Donald Westlake) are good if you're interested in seeing a totally morally bankrupt protagonist deal with even more morally bankrupt antagonists. The movie Payback starring Mel Gibson >from a few years ago was an adaptation of the first in the series, and toned WAY down. The Parker of the novels has absolutely no redeeming qualities, unless you count the ability to plan a great crime and get his money through sheer force-of-will. Josh Collins The Guide is definitive. Reality is frequently inaccurate. (Douglas Adams - The Restaurant at the End of the Universe) yhcrana13 at hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Jul 19 16:22:40 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 19 Jul 2002 18:22:40 -0500 Subject: Comfort Books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Alan" writes: > *turns around and looks* > > I'll add a few. These are books to just reach for, whether I have > 5 minutes or 5 hours and have places of honor in my collection: > > ....and in no particular order.... > Emergence I've reread that a number of times with great pleasure. Too bad he gave up; on the other hand his second book wasn't any great shakes. > Sector General series I've got one of those so old that I put a brown paper cover on the paperback. I did that to roughly the first 5 paperbacks I owned, to protect them. After that I got behind and shortly gave up. Which means I got it somewhere in the mid 1960s, I think. I liked James White's books very much. (And you listed a number of other books I like a lot, not even counting the ones I also listed already :-)) -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From rone at ennui.org Fri Jul 19 16:31:39 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (figmentality) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:31:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Comfort Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020719233139.98E0226E25@boredom.ennui.org> David Dyer-Bennet writes: And _Dune_. I was wondering how long it'd take for that one to pop up... i am a huge Herbert fan. I even read the crappy book he co-authored with his son. rone -- Constancy of the speed of light is a conclusion, yes it is a conclusion based on nonconvincing, irrational assumptions. WHAT IS LIGHT?! Whose light? From what sourse? Please do not mention electronagnetics - the same applies to them. - Alexander Abian From mario at seraphworks.com Fri Jul 19 16:33:58 2002 From: mario at seraphworks.com (Mario R. Delgado II) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:33:58 -0700 Subject: Comfort? What of guilty pleasures? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1027121638.3d38a1e6df52a@webmail.seraphworks.com> Hi all, New to the list myself, though I have been around long enough to catch the latest round of discussion about "comfort books,? and it has gotten me to thinking. What about those guilty pleasures? You know, books that are just trash but you love to read them anyway. Brainless, quick reads with enough pay- off to keep you coming back for more, but that you are loathe admitting you read. I'll start things off with my latest guilty pleasure: Luarel K Hamilton's Anita Blake series...the first book of which is appropriately titled _Guilty Pleasures_. Anyone brave enough to admit to his or her guilty pleasures out there? :) -- Mario R. Delgado II mario at seraphworks.com http://www.seraphworks.com/prison "Yes, my real name is Mario. No relation to the assassin or the brothers." --------------------------------------------------------------------- This mail sent through Seraphworks Webmail http://www.seraphworks.com Powered by IMP: http://horde.org/imp/ From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Jul 19 16:50:58 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 19:50:58 -0400 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version Message-ID: <051D880B.17B83899.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:10:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, Brad writes: > Vlad's real skill is working as a detective, sniffing out > conspiracies and the like. ?That is where his future lies. He stills needs some practice in this area; he made a real mess of things in _Orca_. --KG From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Jul 19 16:54:19 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 19:54:19 -0400 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version Message-ID: <091DFDD5.676C4ED2.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:49:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, Joshua Kronengold writes: No real spoilers, but replies may have Issola Spoilers.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > [...] but I can guess where the next "normal chronology" > book is likely to start, and it's not more than a few > minutes after the last one ended. I expect (and hope) that the next Vlad book will be a gap filler (there's a big gap between Phoenix and Athyra). As for the next post-Issola book, I'm not sure. If we DO see that meal, it'll be because he gets interrupted (Morrolan is the likeliest). Otherwise, I expect after the meal he'll go straight to Noish-pa for a long, long talk that we may or may not see. --KG From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Jul 19 16:59:14 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 18:59:14 -0500 Subject: Comfort? What of guilty pleasures? In-Reply-To: <1027121638.3d38a1e6df52a@webmail.seraphworks.com> References: <1027121638.3d38a1e6df52a@webmail.seraphworks.com> Message-ID: <20020719235914.GB16423@infodancer.org> On Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 04:33:58PM -0700, "Mario R. Delgado II" wrote: > I'll start things off with my latest guilty pleasure: > Luarel K Hamilton's Anita Blake series...the first book of which is > appropriately titled _Guilty Pleasures_. It's a decent series. Starts out quite well. Ends less well, but still fun reading. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Jul 19 17:05:29 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 20:05:29 -0400 Subject: Comfort Books Message-ID: <411F8678.7119EE39.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Fri, 19 Jul 2002 5:04:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Scott Ingram" writes: [Apsin's Myth series] >> >> Something M.Y.T.H. Inc. ?(Sept) This seems to still be on schedule for September. >> Myth-Ion Improbable ? ?(July) Came out last September. It's set between _Myth Directions_ and _Hit or Myth_, and matches those books in style and quality. > Sadly there was some sort of legal problems involving the > Myth books, and also some tax problems, which prevented > him from publishing any more in the series. I assumed that got cleared up, since he's writing solo works again. --KG From tyan at twcny.rr.com Fri Jul 19 17:53:00 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: 19 Jul 2002 20:53:00 -0400 Subject: Comfort Books In-Reply-To: rone@ennui.org's message of "Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:31:39 -0700 (PDT)" References: <20020719233139.98E0226E25@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: rone at ennui.org (figmentality) writes: > David Dyer-Bennet writes: > And _Dune_. > > I was wondering how long it'd take for that one to pop up... i am a huge > Herbert fan. Me, too: the _Dune_ series, _The Dosadi Experiment_, _Soul Catcher_, _The Godmakers_, _The White Plague_, _Under Pressure_, and _The Santaroga Barrier_, although I haven't managed to reread that last one yet. I don't think his collaborations with Bill Ransom were completely successful, but they were interesting. Hm. I don't think I've ever reread them yet, either. > I even read the crappy book he co-authored with his son. I was disappointed with it, but I have to say it wasn't a total loss. There were some pretty funny parts. - tky From tyan at twcny.rr.com Fri Jul 19 17:55:41 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: 19 Jul 2002 20:55:41 -0400 Subject: Comfort? What of guilty pleasures? In-Reply-To: Matthew Hunter's message of "Fri, 19 Jul 2002 18:59:14 -0500" References: <1027121638.3d38a1e6df52a@webmail.seraphworks.com> <20020719235914.GB16423@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Matthew Hunter writes: > On Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 04:33:58PM -0700, "Mario R. Delgado II" wrote: > > I'll start things off with my latest guilty pleasure: > > Luarel K Hamilton's Anita Blake series...the first book of which is > > appropriately titled _Guilty Pleasures_. > > It's a decent series. Starts out quite well. When I first discovered those books, I think I reread the first 5 something like 5 times each in as many weeks. Loads of fun. Definitely comfort reads for me. > Ends less well, > but still fun reading. Well, that remains to be seen. The latest book gives me hope the next books will get really good again. - tky From books at bofh.com Fri Jul 19 18:29:04 2002 From: books at bofh.com (books at bofh.com) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 18:29:04 -0700 (MST) Subject: Comfort Books In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:25:31 -0400" References: <00db01c22f3b$98a2feb0$1401a8c0@HAL1> Message-ID: <01KKAEOZJ5WM000IHH@chud.net> >A Stress Analysis of a Strapless Evening Gown This one is great. I love the discussion and diagrams for the 'cantilevered beams'. :) -Jot From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Jul 19 19:10:01 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 19 Jul 2002 21:10:01 -0500 Subject: Invalidated old archive URLs Message-ID: <1027131001.1029.TMDA@dd-b.net> Sorry, but I just invalidated most/all of the mailing list message archive URLs, so any old pointers you had probably didn't make it. Turned out one of the things I'd done in configuration, which worked well enough, wasn't compatible with the htdig indexing spider, so I had to change it. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Jul 19 19:11:43 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 19 Jul 2002 21:11:43 -0500 Subject: Comfort? What of guilty pleasures? In-Reply-To: <1027121638.3d38a1e6df52a@webmail.seraphworks.com> References: <1027121638.3d38a1e6df52a@webmail.seraphworks.com> Message-ID: "Mario R. Delgado II" writes: > I'll start things off with my latest guilty pleasure: > > Luarel K Hamilton's Anita Blake series...the first book of which is > appropriately titled _Guilty Pleasures_. I read the first three or four of those, but they didn't seem to be going anywhere. > Anyone brave enough to admit to his or her guilty pleasures out there? :) I might class the Griffin books that way. The rest, I'm willing to defend. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Jul 19 19:12:49 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 19 Jul 2002 21:12:49 -0500 Subject: Comfort Books In-Reply-To: References: <20020719233139.98E0226E25@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: Thomas Yan writes: > rone at ennui.org (figmentality) writes: > > David Dyer-Bennet writes: > > And _Dune_. > > > > I was wondering how long it'd take for that one to pop up... i am a huge > > Herbert fan. > > Me, too: the _Dune_ series, _The Dosadi Experiment_, _Soul Catcher_, > _The Godmakers_, _The White Plague_, _Under Pressure_, and _The > Santaroga Barrier_, although I haven't managed to reread that last one > yet. For me, it's definitely _Dune_, and *NOT* the Dune series. I read the first three, I think, possibly even 4, but it was definitely a mistake for me. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Jul 19 19:14:13 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 22:14:13 -0400 Subject: Comfort Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <62447802-9B86-11D6-8A02-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Friday, July 19, 2002, at 10:12 PM, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Thomas Yan writes: > >> rone at ennui.org (figmentality) writes: >>> David Dyer-Bennet writes: >>> And _Dune_. >>> >>> I was wondering how long it'd take for that one to pop up... i am a >>> huge >>> Herbert fan. >> >> Me, too: the _Dune_ series, _The Dosadi Experiment_, _Soul Catcher_, >> _The Godmakers_, _The White Plague_, _Under Pressure_, and _The >> Santaroga Barrier_, although I haven't managed to reread that last one >> yet. > > For me, it's definitely _Dune_, and *NOT* the Dune series. I read the > first three, I think, possibly even 4, but it was definitely a mistake > for me. > -- > David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test > John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net > Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ > New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info > > Ya, the first three are fine. God Emperor was terrible. ------ Chris Turkel,Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From bertowud at gator.net Fri Jul 19 19:29:24 2002 From: bertowud at gator.net (Robert Wood) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 22:29:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Comfort Books In-Reply-To: <18CAF37C.51427DB6.0296E7C9@aol.com> References: <18CAF37C.51427DB6.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <1972.24.136.62.181.1027132164.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> > Sheer stupid stubborness at refusing to NOT stop reading a series even > when it's awful and you know you're wasting your time? That's why I > kept reading. I kept thinking, "Oh, maybe it'll get better. Or....I'm > so close, I might as well finish now." > > Stacy That's kinda how I felt for the last third of Battlefield Earth. Robert From bertowud at gator.net Fri Jul 19 19:29:28 2002 From: bertowud at gator.net (Robert Wood) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 22:29:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Comfort Books In-Reply-To: <18CAF37C.51427DB6.0296E7C9@aol.com> References: <18CAF37C.51427DB6.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <1973.24.136.62.181.1027132168.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> > Sheer stupid stubborness at refusing to NOT stop reading a series even > when it's awful and you know you're wasting your time? That's why I > kept reading. I kept thinking, "Oh, maybe it'll get better. Or....I'm > so close, I might as well finish now." > > Stacy That's kinda how I felt for the last third of Battlefield Earth. Robert From bertowud at gator.net Fri Jul 19 19:42:15 2002 From: bertowud at gator.net (Robert Wood) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 22:42:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Vlad and Mario (Re: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version) In-Reply-To: <080901c22f6d$e485a620$17ecca18@ingram> References: <080901c22f6d$e485a620$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: <2029.24.136.62.181.1027132935.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> > Yes, Steve is very insistant that "Mario is Mario" but notice that > Steve has never once stated that "Vlad is Vlad"... > > -Scott This is something I've thought more than once. Robert From rsuitor at cjwrfs.net Fri Jul 19 20:01:05 2002 From: rsuitor at cjwrfs.net (Richard Suitor) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 23:01:05 -0400 Subject: Comfort? What of guilty pleasures? In-Reply-To: <1027121638.3d38a1e6df52a@webmail.seraphworks.com> References: <1027121638.3d38a1e6df52a@webmail.seraphworks.com> Message-ID: <2hjhjugov4nnpg5kp593p96dh1s8b86q3o@4ax.com> On Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:33:58 -0700, "Mario R. Delgado II" wrote: >You know, books that are just >trash but you love to read them anyway. > >I'll start things off with my latest guilty pleasure: > >Luarel K Hamilton's Anita Blake series. Possibly Hamilton - not sure I get enough pleasure yet. I haven't reread any yet. Haven't even read them all yet. But I like Anita as a character. And there is enough development of it that I'm not sure I'll feel all that guilty. Considering the various things said, most of which I agree with, Eddings. So what if they're all the same? I'm going to reread them anyway. I enjoy his blather, even as I cringe. Thorne Smith, maybe. The books celebrate a lifestyle I don't admire and am not interested in emulating (well, I guess most action stories do that, too) but they are fun reads and I reread them. Leslie Charteris' Saint. Edgar Rice Burroughs. Robert Howard. I recall a much better quality 50 years ago (who goes about replacing all those fine originals with the inferior imitations bearing the same titles, I wonder?), but I still reread them. Richard From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Jul 19 20:30:36 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 22:30:36 -0500 Subject: Comfort Books In-Reply-To: <1972.24.136.62.181.1027132164.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> References: <18CAF37C.51427DB6.0296E7C9@aol.com> <1972.24.136.62.181.1027132164.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> Message-ID: <20020720033036.GI27548@infodancer.org> On Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 10:29:24PM -0400, Robert Wood wrote: > > Sheer stupid stubborness at refusing to NOT stop reading a series even > > when it's awful and you know you're wasting your time? That's why I > > kept reading. I kept thinking, "Oh, maybe it'll get better. Or....I'm > > so close, I might as well finish now." > That's kinda how I felt for the last third of Battlefield Earth. You GOT to the last third of Battlefield Earth? (Before I found out about Elron, I tried, I really *tried* to finish that book... I even tried to get past the first chapter! Because it was clearly science fiction, and the library had a copy, and they had almost no other science fiction.) -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From bertowud at gator.net Fri Jul 19 20:50:44 2002 From: bertowud at gator.net (Robert Wood) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 23:50:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Comfort Books In-Reply-To: <20020720033036.GI27548@infodancer.org> References: <20020720033036.GI27548@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <2809.24.136.62.181.1027137044.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> > On Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 10:29:24PM -0400, Robert Wood > wrote: >> That's kinda how I felt for the last third of Battlefield Earth. > > You GOT to the last third of Battlefield Earth? > > (Before I found out about Elron, I tried, I really *tried* to > finish that book... I even tried to get past the first chapter! > Because it was clearly science fiction, and the library had a > copy, and they had almost no other science fiction.) > > -- > Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) I hate flying and it was the only book I had with me. What can I say? The middle third is OK/pretty good, but the rest is a waste of time. I don't think I'll ever even pick up (much less read) another of his books. Robert From frank at exit.com Fri Jul 19 20:55:28 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 20:55:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Comfort Books In-Reply-To: <2809.24.136.62.181.1027137044.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> Message-ID: <200207200355.g6K3tSnE023596@realtime.exit.com> Robert Wood wrote: > I hate flying and it was the only book I had with me. What can I say? The > middle third is OK/pretty good, but the rest is a waste of time. I don't > think I'll ever even pick up (much less read) another of his books. I'm ashamed to say that I, too, finished that book. What can I say, it was long ago and I was young. I've since learned that all those books that claim to be by "L. Ron Hubbard" are actually by various and sundry in Scientology and are only attributed to him. They keep them on the best-seller lists by making it the duty of each Scientologist to buy as many as possible. Take a look some time, every one of those books is published by a company called "Bridge Publications." It's a front for Scientology. Hubbard was bugfuck nuts, but he has to be the most prolific dead author in history. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From bertowud at gator.net Fri Jul 19 21:02:43 2002 From: bertowud at gator.net (Robert Wood) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 00:02:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Comfort? What of guilty pleasures? In-Reply-To: <2hjhjugov4nnpg5kp593p96dh1s8b86q3o@4ax.com> References: <2hjhjugov4nnpg5kp593p96dh1s8b86q3o@4ax.com> Message-ID: <2931.24.136.62.181.1027137763.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> A couple of guilty pleasure movies for me are Judge Dredd, Tank Girl & Pitch Black. I actually have several, but Judge Dredd & Tank Girl are probably the ones I'm most ashamed to admit to. Robert From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jul 19 21:03:35 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 21:03:35 -0700 Subject: Great Weapons (was: interview) In-Reply-To: <35EDC2A8.23C63B72.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020719210155.00a5f010@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:44 AM 7/19/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >Actually, I have a similar question: do you know the names of all >Seventeen Great Weapons? Will we eventually "meet" them all? Well, let me think: there's Godslayer, Blackwand, Pathfinder, Knightslayer (or was it Nightslayer? Damn, can't remember), and then there's Larry, Moe, Curley, Sneezy, Dopey... From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jul 19 21:04:53 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 00:04:53 EDT Subject: Great Weapons (was: interview) Message-ID: <71.22986e59.2a6a3b65@aol.com> In a message dated 7/19/2002 10:03:38 PM Mountain Daylight Time, skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > Well, let me think: there's Godslayer, Blackwand, Pathfinder, Knightslayer > (or was it Nightslayer? Damn, can't remember), and then there's Larry, > Moe, Curley, Sneezy, Dopey... Knightrider, perhaps? No, wait.....that was a car...... How about Truthseeker? Stacy From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jul 19 21:11:09 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 21:11:09 -0700 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <003201c22f2d$03f4bdc0$a2845f41@idirect.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020719211021.00a6b880@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:03 AM 7/19/2002 -0400, Ian sympatico wrote: >I read somewhere that his creative process involved imbibing large >quantities of either alcohol (or other substances) and then writing whatever >came to mind. After I read that I did not try to hard to reconcille the >contradictions in each book and just went with the flow of the story. I don't know where this came from, but I'm pretty sure it isn't true. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jul 19 21:12:22 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 21:12:22 -0700 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020719024417.00aab480@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020719211136.00a6a1c0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 09:43 AM 7/19/2002 -0500, Rachael Lininger wrote: >On Jul 19, Steven Brust said: > >At 10:44 AM 7/18/2002 -0700, Jose Marquez wrote: > >>Brad wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> > Back to your regularly scheduled discussion of who Mario is.... > >> > >>My current pet theory is that Mario is Mario. A distinct character, not > >>masquerading as anyone we know, keeps mostly to himself, etc. Prosaic, but > >>very effective... > > > >We seem to have the same pet theory. I wonder if we're right? > >What the hell would you know? > >Sheesh. Hey. I have much right to engage in groundless speculation as anyone else! From tyan at twcny.rr.com Fri Jul 19 21:14:42 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: 20 Jul 2002 00:14:42 -0400 Subject: Great Weapons (was: interview) In-Reply-To: Starshadw@aol.com's message of "Sat, 20 Jul 2002 00:04:53 EDT" References: <71.22986e59.2a6a3b65@aol.com> Message-ID: Starshadw at aol.com writes: > In a message dated 7/19/2002 10:03:38 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > > Well, let me think: there's Godslayer, Blackwand, Pathfinder, Knightslayer > > (or was it Nightslayer? Damn, can't remember), and then there's Larry, > > Moe, Curley, Sneezy, Dopey... > > Knightrider, perhaps? No, wait.....that was a car...... > > How about Truthseeker? Mr. Pointy, the Mighty Morganti Twig of Doom. [1] (I've joked in the past about non-blade Morganti weapons, e.g. a Morganti toothpicks, Morganti chewing gum, Morganti pocket lint, etc.; a friend suggested Morganti bed linen.) - tky [1] Patricia Wrede has the Frying Pan of Doom in her story, "Utensile Strength". From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jul 19 21:13:25 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 00:13:25 EDT Subject: Lonesome Oct (was: Re: the next vlad book?) Message-ID: <12c.14962466.2a6a3d65@aol.com> In a message dated 7/19/2002 3:10:43 PM Mountain Daylight Time, mneme at io.com writes: > However, symbols -also- matter -- the whole point of Jack having > wrong wand was that -despite- his intentions, by the rules of the game > (the rules being a big ugly symbol), he was on the opening side > because he was holding the opening wand. Not necessarily. I don't think that simply by holding the wrong instrument, one's side in the battle changes - unless one KNOWS one is holding the right instrument. The opening side was winning because Jack's willpower was being fed into the opening wand - but he didn't realize he was pouring energy into the wrong focus - he thought he was closing the gate, not opening it. I don't think one changes from open to close just based on what tool you happen to have in your hand. > > The key question is whether the "death of the losing side" is based on > the symbolic (technical actions matter) level, or on the subtext > (intention and forshadowing matters) level -- I -think- it's clear > that it's only on the symbolic level that "loser's death" is > required...which means that since Jill was holding the closer's wand, > she was, de facto, a closer. I still don't agree with your theory that simply be holding one tool over another, a person's side in the battle changes. It's not the TOOL that's doing the work - it's the WILLPOWER of the person. > > The second question is why Jack survives -- I'd say that rather than > this being because he dropped the opener's wand, it's because he's > unkillable -- he doesn't expect to die if he loses to begin with, and > his (known) survival makes it clear that he's an exception to this > "rule". > Again, not necessarily. Maybe he's survived this long because whenever he's managed to make it to one of these little shin-digs, the closers always win. He seems pretty powerful and his presence could keep things in the closers' favor. Stacy From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jul 19 21:14:57 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 00:14:57 EDT Subject: Guilty pleasures? Message-ID: <19e.5868568.2a6a3dc1@aol.com> In a message dated 7/19/2002 5:34:11 PM Mountain Daylight Time, mario at seraphworks.com writes: > Anyone brave enough to admit to his or her guilty pleasures out there? :) The only excuse I have for what I am about to say is that I was VERY young when I first read them, so they remind me of my childhood. -mumbles very low- Anne McCaffrey -slinks away- Stacy From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jul 19 21:18:18 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 00:18:18 EDT Subject: Guilty pleasures? Message-ID: <104.18c55e5d.2a6a3e8a@aol.com> In a message dated 7/19/2002 10:02:55 PM Mountain Daylight Time, bertowud at gator.net writes: > Pitch Black. I don't know as I'd consider this "guilty:" there are some very interesting concepts down under the surface sci-fi/action. The Conan movies - now THAT's a guilty pleasure. -sighs- Oh, and how about Big Trouble in Little China? Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai? Stacy From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jul 19 21:20:26 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 21:20:26 -0700 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version In-Reply-To: References: <200207191510.g6JFAM628717@salome.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020719212000.02f763a0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 11:11 AM 7/19/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: >let's ask him: Steve, how you going to deal with all this great weapon thing? Well, I hope to do something cool. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jul 19 21:26:58 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 21:26:58 -0700 Subject: Zelazny (Amber) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020719043508.02f5dec0@pop3.lvcm.com> <20020719034830.7E7BC26E29@boredom.ennui.org> <20020719034830.7E7BC26E29@boredom.ennui.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020719043508.02f5dec0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020719212331.00a5e240@pop3.lvcm.com> At 12:58 PM 7/19/2002 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >Steven Brust writes: > >I will also say that when I finally sat down and read them all >together, I found the later ones better than I remembered them from >initial readings when they were new, which was pleasant. (There's >room to be *considerably* less good than 9 Princes and still be pretty >good, after all.) Yes. In fact, I have reread the entire first series with great pleasure. And one of these days, I really am going to give the 2nd series another crack; I might enjoy it more going in with lower expectations. From bertowud at gator.net Fri Jul 19 21:32:33 2002 From: bertowud at gator.net (Robert Wood) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 00:32:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Guilty pleasures? In-Reply-To: <104.18c55e5d.2a6a3e8a@aol.com> References: <104.18c55e5d.2a6a3e8a@aol.com> Message-ID: <2967.24.136.62.181.1027139553.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> > In a message dated 7/19/2002 10:02:55 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > bertowud at gator.net writes: > > >> Pitch Black. > > I don't know as I'd consider this "guilty:" there are some very > interesting concepts down under the surface sci-fi/action. > > The Conan movies - now THAT's a guilty pleasure. -sighs- Oh, and how > about Big Trouble in Little China? Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai? > > Stacy Pitch Black is only a guilty pleasure cuz I get teased every time I tell people I know that I've seen it. Oh well, what are friends for? Oh, yeah! I forgot Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai. Definitely guilty pleasure there. I haven't seen that in a few years. Robert From bertowud at gator.net Fri Jul 19 21:45:46 2002 From: bertowud at gator.net (Robert Wood) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 00:45:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Zelazny In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020719212331.00a5e240@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020719212331.00a5e240@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <3158.24.136.62.181.1027140346.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> I read Damnation Alley recently (another flight). I liked it. Any book about a character named Hell has to be worth a read. Robert From FelixEisen at aol.com Fri Jul 19 21:56:53 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 00:56:53 EDT Subject: Comfort Books Message-ID: <111.15699f38.2a6a4795@aol.com> > For me, it's definitely _Dune_, and *NOT* the Dune series. I read the > first three, I think, possibly even 4, but it was definitely a mistake > for me. > -- > David Dyer-Bennet It would have been the fifth book that you stopped at. To be honest, I thought that way as well for the longest time -- I hit the fifth book, 'Heretics of Dune', and came to a dead stop by the third or fourth chapter. So I dropped it, came back to it a few years later, and still couldn't do it. Then -- eventually -- I tried it again, went through those chapters, and I burned through 'Heretics' and 'Chapterhouse: Dune' like a Colorado wildfire. (Ahem.) IMNSHO, these last two books are very much what the entire series is about: the Bene Gesserit and the desire for humankind to 'grow up'. Having read and re-read them, oh, a dozen or more times each, and the first four books (for y'all unfamiliar with the series, these are 'Dune', 'Dune Messiah', 'Children of Dune', and 'God-Emperor of Dune') three or four times in a row each, I have to say that Herbert started out basic and worked his way up the complexity scale with each book. Yes, one can say that 'Dune' is complex on many levels, that Herbert wanted to write a book about the dependence on oil (which is what he says in one of the fore- or afterwords, IIRC), the Messiah effect, all that sort of thing, but to be honest, 'Dune' is a very straightforward book in comparison with those that follow. If I can encourage you to do one thing in regards to books (considering that you already like Steve's writing), it would be to force yourself to read through the slow beginning of 'Heretics of Dune' and get to the meaty stuff. There are times I want to be Bene Gesserit ... but I'm the wrong gender. Felix Eisen aka Thomas Crain From rone at ennui.org Fri Jul 19 21:57:49 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (figmentality) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 21:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Comfort Books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020720045749.CE9A426E26@boredom.ennui.org> David Dyer-Bennet writes: For me, it's definitely _Dune_, and *NOT* the Dune series. I read the first three, I think, possibly even 4, but it was definitely a mistake for me. Too bad, i think _Heretics_, the fifth book, is the second-best of the series. Things really pick up after Leto dies... rone -- Constancy of the speed of light is a conclusion, yes it is a conclusion based on nonconvincing, irrational assumptions. WHAT IS LIGHT?! Whose light? From what sourse? Please do not mention electronagnetics - the same applies to them. - Alexander Abian From rone at ennui.org Fri Jul 19 22:00:26 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (figmentality) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 22:00:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Comfort? What of guilty pleasures? In-Reply-To: <1027121638.3d38a1e6df52a@webmail.seraphworks.com> Message-ID: <20020720050026.199F426E27@boredom.ennui.org> Mario R. Delgado II writes: What about those guilty pleasures? You know, books that are just trash but you love to read them anyway. Brainless, quick reads with enough pay- off to keep you coming back for more, but that you are loathe admitting you read. Evan Dorkin's "Milk & Cheese" seems to fit that bill for me. rone -- Constancy of the speed of light is a conclusion, yes it is a conclusion based on nonconvincing, irrational assumptions. WHAT IS LIGHT?! Whose light? From what sourse? Please do not mention electronagnetics - the same applies to them. - Alexander Abian From grapawy at yahoo.com Fri Jul 19 22:20:13 2002 From: grapawy at yahoo.com (Gregory Rapawy) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 22:20:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Great Weapons (was: interview) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020719210155.00a5f010@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <20020720052013.13098.qmail@web21109.mail.yahoo.com> --- Steven Brust wrote: [of the Great Weapons:] > Well, let me think: there's Godslayer, Blackwand, > Pathfinder, Knightslayer (or was it Nightslayer? > Damn, can't remember), and then there's Larry, Moe, > Curley, Sneezy, Dopey... Fascinating -- obviously loose translations from the Serioli. Clearly, after the Serioli faction responsible for Godslayer and Pathfinder failed to supplant the Lords of Judgment, they badly needed cheering up. So they created Generator-of-Amusing-Noises-Such-As-N!yuk- N!yuk-N!yuk, Device-for-Depositing-Mirth-in-the-Form- of-Unavoidable-Cream-Pies, and Implement-for-the- Poking-of-Eyes-in-a-Humorous-Although-Permanently- Fatal-Manner. Also, I think there should definitely be a Great Weapon whose name translates to "Grumpy." -- Greg __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jul 19 22:25:45 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 22:25:45 -0700 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version In-Reply-To: <20020719073805.GH27548@infodancer.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020718040633.00a6e580@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020717182931.02f02d90@pop3.lvcm.com> <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020717182931.02f02d90@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020718040633.00a6e580@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020719221318.00a627e0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 02:38 AM 7/19/2002 -0500, Matthew Hunter wrote: >On Thu, Jul 18, 2002 at 04:08:19AM -0700, Steven Brust > wrote: > > At 10:11 PM 7/17/2002 -0500, Matthew Hunter wrote: > >The Official Press Questionaire for Vlad Taltos, (ex-)Baronet of >the Jhereg, Imperial Count of Some Nameless Area he's never >visited, etc: > >0) Is this thing on? Testing, testing, 1 2 3... > >1) You go through life-threatening adventures on a regular basis, >while the tales of your exploits are presented to others as witty >entertainment, even a measure of comedy. Does this bother you? > >Do you have anything to say, directly, to those people who are >following your adventures as an evening's passtime? No. > Are you >comfortable existing as a role-model for a generation of foreign >children? Comfortable? I make a living. >2) What *really* happened to your finger? Which finger? My middle finger is fine. See? >3) No, no, the TRUTH about your finger? The middle finger on my other hand is also working well. >4) How do you feel about being a fa-... oh, no, that would be >rude. Don't be rude. >5) Are you aware that your "publisher" (or perhaps publicist?) >is working with another individual, one "Paarfi", whose tales are >in direct competition with yours? (If so, is Paarfi perhaps >slated for elimination? ;)) I don't think that's any of my business. >6) In some of your tales, you have mentioned suspicions that >your memory had been altered at some point. You have so far >failed to follow up on these allegations. Did it slip your >mind? You go investigate. Tell me what you find out. >7) There are a few scenes (before you met Cawti) which could be >read to imply a certain amount of romantic tension between >yourself and Kiera. Any comment? You're dreaming, boy. >8) Following your realization concerning Kiera and Sethra, have >you given any further thought to the events early in your life >which brought you into contact with Sethra, Morrolan, et al? Yes. A lot. >8a) And having come to said realization, how did that make you >feel about the certain amount of romantic tension? (Just how dead >and How UNdead, is she???) I came to the conclusion that you must be dreaming. >9) Some of your fans have speculated that Kragar is Mario. >Does this speculation... concern you in any way? Tell Kragar. He'll get a kick out of it. >10) There have been accusations that you are an unreliable >narrator, and occasionally shade the truth in your favor. >Any comment? I have never told anything except the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and if this statement isn't true, may Verra strike you dead. >11) This next question is for the reptiles. Is Vlad really as >smart as he thinks he is? Loiosh knows better than to answer that question. >12) Mr. Taltos: Have you ever wondered if memories of your >past incarnation affect how some of your acquaintences >deal with you? If so, why haven't you gone to see >Sethra about that past life? Why ask a question if you don't want the answer? >13) Have you visited any of the lands you rule during your >recent travels? Do you plan to? I haven't yet. I might one of these days. > Would you know if you had? So, let me get this straight: You are wondering if my mind has been tampered with? And you're the one conducting an interview with a fictional character? From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jul 19 22:27:36 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 22:27:36 -0700 Subject: Great Weapons (was: interview) In-Reply-To: <20020720052013.13098.qmail@web21109.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020719210155.00a5f010@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020719222659.02f611c0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:20 PM 7/19/2002 -0700, Gregory Rapawy wrote: >Also, I think there should definitely be a Great >Weapon whose name translates to "Grumpy." Remember, you heard it here first. From Raellew at aol.com Fri Jul 19 22:31:55 2002 From: Raellew at aol.com (Raellew at aol.com) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 01:31:55 EDT Subject: Guilty pleasures? Message-ID: <15e.10eb6344.2a6a4fcb@aol.com> In a message dated 7/20/02, Starshadw at aol.com writes: In a message dated 7/19/2002 10:02:55 PM Mountain Daylight Time, bertowud at gator.net writes: >> Pitch Black. > >I don't know as I'd consider this "guilty:" there are some very >interesting concepts down under the surface sci-fi/action. > >The Conan movies - now THAT's a guilty pleasure. -sighs- Oh, >and how about Big Trouble in Little China? Adventures of >Buckaroo Banzai? Four words: Hercules in New York. Another favorite is She (1985) starring Sandahl Bergman. Based on the H. Rider Haggard novel. You can tell it's based on the H. Rider Haggard novel because, uh, there's a character named She in it. Rae From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jul 19 22:38:19 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 01:38:19 EDT Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version Message-ID: <5f.2a29f3c9.2a6a514b@aol.com> You know, I NEVER go to conventions. I'm not big on large crowds of people pushing and shoving each other, nor do I suffer from "star fever." But by Verra, I just might try and make one for the opportunity to meet you, Steven - just so I can experience your wit in person. If I can laugh this much sitting in front of a computer, how much more hilarious will it be when I can watch your facial expressions? -grins- Are you a master at deadpan? Stacy From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Jul 19 22:40:23 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 22:40:23 -0700 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version In-Reply-To: <5f.2a29f3c9.2a6a514b@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020719223957.02f61040@pop3.lvcm.com> At 01:38 AM 7/20/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >You know, I NEVER go to conventions. I'm not big on large crowds of people >pushing and shoving each other, nor do I suffer from "star fever." But by >Verra, I just might try and make one for the opportunity to meet you, Steven >- just so I can experience your wit in person. If I can laugh this much >sitting in front of a computer, how much more hilarious will it be when I can >watch your facial expressions? -grins- Are you a master at deadpan? From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Jul 19 23:38:23 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 01:38:23 -0500 Subject: Comfort Books In-Reply-To: <200207200355.g6K3tSnE023596@realtime.exit.com> References: <2809.24.136.62.181.1027137044.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> <200207200355.g6K3tSnE023596@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <20020720063823.GJ27548@infodancer.org> On Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 08:55:28PM -0700, Frank Mayhar wrote: > Robert Wood wrote: > > I hate flying and it was the only book I had with me. What can I say? The > > middle third is OK/pretty good, but the rest is a waste of time. I don't > > think I'll ever even pick up (much less read) another of his books. > I'm ashamed to say that I, too, finished that book. What can I say, it was > long ago and I was young. I had those excuses and I still had better sense. Hrmph. :P > I've since learned that all those books that claim to be by "L. Ron Hubbard" > are actually by various and sundry in Scientology and are only attributed to > him. They keep them on the best-seller lists by making it the duty of each > Scientologist to buy as many as possible. Take a look some time, every one > of those books is published by a company called "Bridge Publications." It's > a front for Scientology. This is true to a certain extent, but there are books that are really by Hubbard. You just have to filter out the ones that were published before he died. The rest are of questionable authenticity. (They are ALL of questionable quality.) -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Jul 19 23:48:35 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 01:48:35 -0500 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020719221318.00a627e0@pop3.lvcm.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020718040633.00a6e580@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020717182931.02f02d90@pop3.lvcm.com> <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020717182931.02f02d90@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020718040633.00a6e580@pop3.lvcm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020719221318.00a627e0@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <20020720064835.GK27548@infodancer.org> *laugh* *applause* (Thanks for taking the time to answer). There are still spoilers below... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . On Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 10:25:45PM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: > At 02:38 AM 7/19/2002 -0500, Matthew Hunter wrote: > >6) In some of your tales, you have mentioned suspicions that > >your memory had been altered at some point. You have so far > >failed to follow up on these allegations. Did it slip your > >mind? > You go investigate. Tell me what you find out. Hmm. I wonder if this indicates there are clues? > >7) There are a few scenes (before you met Cawti) which could be > >read to imply a certain amount of romantic tension between > >yourself and Kiera. Any comment? > You're dreaming, boy. Not sure whether this is Vlad saying "buzz off" or Vlad saying "I don't know what you're talking about". If the latter, there are something like two throwaway lines concerning mildly involved kisses between Vlad and Kiera (one per book?), never mentioned again. I'm obviously going to have to dig out the books, find the references, and start a Loony Theory Compilation[1]. > >8) Following your realization concerning Kiera and Sethra, have > >you given any further thought to the events early in your life > >which brought you into contact with Sethra, Morrolan, et al? > Yes. A lot. I wonder if we'll be seeing the results of this before long... > >9) Some of your fans have speculated that Kragar is Mario. > >Does this speculation... concern you in any way? > Tell Kragar. He'll get a kick out of it. *chuckle* > > Would you know if you had? > So, let me get this straight: You are wondering if my mind has been > tampered with? And you're the one conducting an interview with a fictional > character? I *know* my mind has been tampered with; I caught myself red-handed! -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) 1: (Beware, for I am a Veteran of the diverse Bela[2] threads.) 2: Yes, those[3] Bela threads. 3: rasfwr-j. 'nuff said. From rsuitor at cjwrfs.net Sat Jul 20 04:12:24 2002 From: rsuitor at cjwrfs.net (Richard Suitor) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 07:12:24 -0400 Subject: [DbS] TPG ch12-ch14 In-Reply-To: References: <335199A0.770B930A.00048EA6@aol.com> <3.0.5.32.20020719195614.007d7290@astound.net> Message-ID: On 19 Jul 2002 23:19:19 -0400, Thomas Yan wrote: >Tangent: Looking at the page, I'm reminded that issola represents >courtesy and surprise. If gracefulness counts as courtesy, then it is >interesting that Aerich, a Lyorn, has been at least twice described as >fast yet graceful (p10 and p94 or p95), which seems more >characteristic of an Issola than a Lyorn. I believe that Aerich strives to behave correctly, and is courteous because that is frequently the correct thing to do. His courtesy does not prevent him from correcting people. Teldra would adapt rather than correct, unless she perceived a future difficulty for the person or was asked. Richard From Starshadw at aol.com Sat Jul 20 07:18:50 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 10:18:50 EDT Subject: [DbS] TPG ch12-ch14 Message-ID: <190.a148d6f.2a6acb4a@aol.com> In a message dated 7/20/2002 5:14:01 AM Mountain Daylight Time, rsuitor at cjwrfs.net writes: > Teldra would adapt > rather than correct, unless she perceived a future difficulty for > the person or was asked. Teldra also had an uncanny knack for anticipating and preventing people from making mistakes, thus no need to correct. But yes, she was an artiste at "the polite ignore." Stacy From zizban at adelphia.net Sat Jul 20 07:36:06 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 10:36:06 -0400 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version In-Reply-To: <5f.2a29f3c9.2a6a514b@aol.com> Message-ID: <0661B70B-9BEE-11D6-A897-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Saturday, July 20, 2002, at 01:38 AM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > You know, I NEVER go to conventions. I'm not big on large crowds of > people > pushing and shoving each other, nor do I suffer from "star fever." But > by > Verra, I just might try and make one for the opportunity to meet you, > Steven > - just so I can experience your wit in person. If I can laugh this much > sitting in front of a computer, how much more hilarious will it be when > I can > watch your facial expressions? -grins- Are you a master at deadpan? > > Stacy > > I must say this mailing list has been a lot of fun---not only Steve, but everyone. I have laughed more times reading messages on this list than I care to count ;-) And why go to a convention to see Steve? Let's all go to Vegas, take over a poker table and quiz Steve while he fleeces us. ------ Chris Turkel,Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From Starshadw at aol.com Sat Jul 20 07:39:00 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 10:39:00 EDT Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version Message-ID: <5b.2b0f6398.2a6ad004@aol.com> In a message dated 7/20/2002 8:36:52 AM Mountain Daylight Time, zizban at adelphia.net writes: > And why go to a convention to see Steve? Let's all go to Vegas, take > over a poker table and quiz Steve while he fleeces us. I'll bring my Dad, and let him fleece Steve (my father is also a poker player). >:) If we ever did that, it would have to be in the winter because it's WAY too hot in Vegas now. Stacy From zizban at adelphia.net Sat Jul 20 07:40:37 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 10:40:37 -0400 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version In-Reply-To: <5b.2b0f6398.2a6ad004@aol.com> Message-ID: On Saturday, July 20, 2002, at 10:39 AM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/20/2002 8:36:52 AM Mountain Daylight Time, > zizban at adelphia.net writes: > > >> And why go to a convention to see Steve? Let's all go to Vegas, take >> over a poker table and quiz Steve while he fleeces us. > > I'll bring my Dad, and let him fleece Steve (my father is also a poker > player). >:) If we ever did that, it would have to be in the winter > because > it's WAY too hot in Vegas now. > > Stacy > I was there about this time two years ago and it was hot...but it's dry heat. I lived in Florida (which is a giant swamp) and during the summer it felt a lot hotter than Vegas. Besides, we'll be indoors :-) ------ Chris Turkel,Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From books at bofh.com Sat Jul 20 07:58:21 2002 From: books at bofh.com (books at bofh.com) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 07:58:21 -0700 (MST) Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sat, 20 Jul 2002 10:40:37 -0400" References: <5b.2b0f6398.2a6ad004@aol.com> Message-ID: <01KKB6ZX7NSU000E4F@chud.net> >I was there about this time two years ago and it was hot...but it's dry >heat. I lived in Florida (which is a giant swamp) and during the summer >it felt a lot hotter than Vegas. Where I'm from, we go to Vegas to cool off. :) Then again we do it by staying inside all the time. :) -Jot (Phoenix, AZ) From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Jul 20 08:12:39 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 20 Jul 2002 10:12:39 -0500 Subject: Comfort Books In-Reply-To: <20020720063823.GJ27548@infodancer.org> References: <2809.24.136.62.181.1027137044.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> <200207200355.g6K3tSnE023596@realtime.exit.com> <20020720063823.GJ27548@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Matthew Hunter writes: > On Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 08:55:28PM -0700, Frank Mayhar wrote: > > Robert Wood wrote: > > > I hate flying and it was the only book I had with me. What can I say? The > > > middle third is OK/pretty good, but the rest is a waste of time. I don't > > > think I'll ever even pick up (much less read) another of his books. > > I'm ashamed to say that I, too, finished that book. What can I say, it was > > long ago and I was young. > > I had those excuses and I still had better sense. Hrmph. :P > > > I've since learned that all those books that claim to be by "L. Ron Hubbard" > > are actually by various and sundry in Scientology and are only attributed to > > him. They keep them on the best-seller lists by making it the duty of each > > Scientologist to buy as many as possible. Take a look some time, every one > > of those books is published by a company called "Bridge Publications." It's > > a front for Scientology. > > This is true to a certain extent, but there are books that are > really by Hubbard. You just have to filter out the ones that > were published before he died. The rest are of questionable > authenticity. (They are ALL of questionable quality.) _Typewriter In The Sky_ isn't bad; an interesting premise, and he works it our fairly completely. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From zizban at adelphia.net Sat Jul 20 08:14:04 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 11:14:04 -0400 Subject: Guilty pleasures? In-Reply-To: <2967.24.136.62.181.1027139553.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> Message-ID: <53DF5C88-9BF3-11D6-A897-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Saturday, July 20, 2002, at 12:32 AM, Robert Wood wrote: >> In a message dated 7/19/2002 10:02:55 PM Mountain Daylight Time, >> bertowud at gator.net writes: >> >> >>> Pitch Black. >> >> I don't know as I'd consider this "guilty:" there are some very >> interesting concepts down under the surface sci-fi/action. >> >> The Conan movies - now THAT's a guilty pleasure. -sighs- Oh, and how >> about Big Trouble in Little China? Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai? >> >> Stacy > > Pitch Black is only a guilty pleasure cuz I get teased every time I tell > people I know that I've seen it. Oh well, what are friends for? > > Oh, yeah! I forgot Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai. Definitely guilty > pleasure there. I haven't seen that in a few years. > > Robert Two of my guilty pleasures: Better Off Dead and Gremlins 2. Oh and A Christmas Story :-) ------ Chris Turkel,Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Jul 20 08:16:49 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 20 Jul 2002 10:16:49 -0500 Subject: Comfort Books In-Reply-To: <111.15699f38.2a6a4795@aol.com> References: <111.15699f38.2a6a4795@aol.com> Message-ID: FelixEisen at aol.com writes: > > For me, it's definitely _Dune_, and *NOT* the Dune series. I read the > > first three, I think, possibly even 4, but it was definitely a mistake > > for me. > > -- > > David Dyer-Bennet > > It would have been the fifth book that you stopped at. > > To be honest, I thought that way as well for the longest time -- I hit the > fifth book, 'Heretics of Dune', and came to a dead stop by the third or > fourth chapter. So I dropped it, came back to it a few years later, and > still couldn't do it. Then -- eventually -- I tried it again, went through > those chapters, and I burned through 'Heretics' and 'Chapterhouse: Dune' like > a Colorado wildfire. (Ahem.) No, definitely before heretics. That hadn't been published yet. I know I read Children, not sure if I read God Emperor. > IMNSHO, these last two books are very much what the entire series is about: > the Bene Gesserit and the desire for humankind to 'grow up'. Having read and > re-read them, oh, a dozen or more times each, and the first four books (for > y'all unfamiliar with the series, these are 'Dune', 'Dune Messiah', 'Children > of Dune', and 'God-Emperor of Dune') three or four times in a row each, I > have to say that Herbert started out basic and worked his way up the > complexity scale with each book. Yes, one can say that 'Dune' is complex on > many levels, that Herbert wanted to write a book about the dependence on oil > (which is what he says in one of the fore- or afterwords, IIRC), the Messiah > effect, all that sort of thing, but to be honest, 'Dune' is a very > straightforward book in comparison with those that follow. I can only talk to the three following Dune, of course, but I found Dune brilliant, I rank it as one of the top 5 SF novels of all time. The next three are much less well written, and much less consistent, and much less interesting. I know Dune was nearly an uncredited collaboration with John W. Campbell (the editor who originally published it in Astounding SF); I suspect that it worked so well because Campbell brought *his* strengths to the project as well, and Herbert was young enough to listen. > If I can encourage you to do one thing in regards to books (considering that > you already like Steve's writing), it would be to force yourself to read > through the slow beginning of 'Heretics of Dune' and get to the meaty stuff. > > There are times I want to be Bene Gesserit ... but I'm the wrong gender. I've heard from a lot of people that Heretics is where the series picks up again, but most of them didn't dislike the intermediate books as strongly as I did, so I'm haven't yet been convinced to spend more time and money on it. But I'll keep it in mind. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Jul 20 08:18:17 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 20 Jul 2002 10:18:17 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons (was: interview) In-Reply-To: References: <71.22986e59.2a6a3b65@aol.com> Message-ID: Thomas Yan writes: > Starshadw at aol.com writes: > > In a message dated 7/19/2002 10:03:38 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > > skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > > > Well, let me think: there's Godslayer, Blackwand, Pathfinder, Knightslayer > > > (or was it Nightslayer? Damn, can't remember), and then there's Larry, > > > Moe, Curley, Sneezy, Dopey... > > > > Knightrider, perhaps? No, wait.....that was a car...... > > > > How about Truthseeker? > > Mr. Pointy, the Mighty Morganti Twig of Doom. [1] > > (I've joked in the past about non-blade Morganti weapons, e.g. a > Morganti toothpicks, Morganti chewing gum, Morganti pocket lint, etc.; > a friend suggested Morganti bed linen.) And, of course, that most deadly of all weapons, the morganti fountain pen. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Jul 20 08:19:33 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 20 Jul 2002 10:19:33 -0500 Subject: Guilty pleasures? In-Reply-To: <19e.5868568.2a6a3dc1@aol.com> References: <19e.5868568.2a6a3dc1@aol.com> Message-ID: Starshadw at aol.com writes: > In a message dated 7/19/2002 5:34:11 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > mario at seraphworks.com writes: > > > > Anyone brave enough to admit to his or her guilty pleasures out there? :) > > The only excuse I have for what I am about to say is that I was VERY young > when I first read them, so they remind me of my childhood. > > -mumbles very low- Anne McCaffrey -slinks away- Dragonflight, Dragonquest, and Dragonsong and Dragonsinger I remember fondly. About when White Dragon came out I realized she'd lost it. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From zizban at adelphia.net Sat Jul 20 08:19:42 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 11:19:42 -0400 Subject: Great Weapons (was: interview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1D914B0C-9BF4-11D6-A897-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Saturday, July 20, 2002, at 11:18 AM, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Thomas Yan writes: > >> Starshadw at aol.com writes: >>> In a message dated 7/19/2002 10:03:38 PM Mountain Daylight Time, >>> skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: >>>> Well, let me think: there's Godslayer, Blackwand, Pathfinder, >>>> Knightslayer >>>> (or was it Nightslayer? Damn, can't remember), and then there's >>>> Larry, >>>> Moe, Curley, Sneezy, Dopey... >>> >>> Knightrider, perhaps? No, wait.....that was a car...... >>> >>> How about Truthseeker? >> >> Mr. Pointy, the Mighty Morganti Twig of Doom. [1] >> >> (I've joked in the past about non-blade Morganti weapons, e.g. a >> Morganti toothpicks, Morganti chewing gum, Morganti pocket lint, etc.; >> a friend suggested Morganti bed linen.) > > And, of course, that most deadly of all weapons, the morganti fountain > pen. > -- > David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test > John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net > Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ > New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info > I thought the morranti ink pens were bad, the ones that you had to dip in morganti india ink... ------ Chris Turkel,Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From zizban at adelphia.net Sat Jul 20 08:21:21 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 11:21:21 -0400 Subject: Guilty pleasures? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5875DDB4-9BF4-11D6-A897-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Saturday, July 20, 2002, at 11:19 AM, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Starshadw at aol.com writes: > >> In a message dated 7/19/2002 5:34:11 PM Mountain Daylight Time, >> mario at seraphworks.com writes: >> >> >>> Anyone brave enough to admit to his or her guilty pleasures out >>> there? :) >> >> The only excuse I have for what I am about to say is that I was VERY >> young >> when I first read them, so they remind me of my childhood. >> >> -mumbles very low- Anne McCaffrey -slinks away- > > Dragonflight, Dragonquest, and Dragonsong and Dragonsinger I remember > fondly. About when White Dragon came out I realized she'd lost it. > You know when I read one of her books, I can't help but think "This is a good idea, Too bad you ruined it" My aunt copy edited Acorna's World, BTW. ------ Chris Turkel,Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Jul 20 08:22:39 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 20 Jul 2002 10:22:39 -0500 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version In-Reply-To: <0661B70B-9BEE-11D6-A897-00039386187A@adelphia.net> References: <0661B70B-9BEE-11D6-A897-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: Chris Turkel writes: > On Saturday, July 20, 2002, at 01:38 AM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > > > You know, I NEVER go to conventions. I'm not big on large crowds of > > people > > pushing and shoving each other, nor do I suffer from "star fever." > > But by > > Verra, I just might try and make one for the opportunity to meet > > you, Steven > > - just so I can experience your wit in person. If I can laugh this much > > sitting in front of a computer, how much more hilarious will it be > > when I can > > watch your facial expressions? -grins- Are you a master at deadpan? > > > > Stacy > > > > > I must say this mailing list has been a lot of fun---not only Steve, > but everyone. I have laughed more times reading messages on this list > than I care to count ;-) > > And why go to a convention to see Steve? Let's all go to Vegas, take > over a poker table and quiz Steve while he fleeces us. Conventions are cheaper. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From Starshadw at aol.com Sat Jul 20 08:31:45 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 11:31:45 EDT Subject: Guilty pleasures? Message-ID: <34.2a4c6473.2a6adc61@aol.com> In a message dated 7/20/2002 9:19:56 AM Mountain Daylight Time, dd-b at dd-b.net writes: > Dragonflight, Dragonquest, and Dragonsong and Dragonsinger I remember > fondly. About when White Dragon came out I realized she'd lost it. > Yup. I went one more book forward - I think it was All the Weyrs of Pern. And I was so disgusted by the BLATANT use of deus ex machina (which she even admits to in an introduction) that I stopped there. I do enjoy her forays into the earlier times: in fact, Moreta is my favorite of the entire Pern series. Stacy From rsuitor at cjwrfs.net Sat Jul 20 08:49:55 2002 From: rsuitor at cjwrfs.net (Richard Suitor) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 11:49:55 -0400 Subject: Guilty pleasures? In-Reply-To: References: <19e.5868568.2a6a3dc1@aol.com> Message-ID: On 20 Jul 2002 10:19:33 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > >Starshadw at aol.com writes: > >> -mumbles very low- Anne McCaffrey -slinks away- > >Dragonflight, Dragonquest, and Dragonsong and Dragonsinger I remember >fondly. About when White Dragon came out I realized she'd lost it. Anne McCaffrey has written quite a bit. Perhaps White Dragon is a good watermark. I don't think anyone need feel guilty about most of the earlier ones. The later were mostly extruded, but the market seemed to think that these were better than no more McCaffrey. The market seems to generate this phenomenon a lot. It is a perennial Heinlein discussion - I should have added Time Enough for Love to my guilty pleasures, but I'm not going to apologize for revisiting Double Star or Citizen or early McCaffrey or even early Xanth. (and I don't revisit later Xanth, but, in fairness, Anthony obviously changed his target audience). Richard From frank at exit.com Sat Jul 20 09:33:35 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 09:33:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version In-Reply-To: <01KKB6ZX7NSU000E4F@chud.net> Message-ID: <200207201633.g6KGXZJR068814@realtime.exit.com> books at bofh.com wrote: > Where I'm from, we go to Vegas to cool off. :) Many years ago a former manager tried to get me to come to work for him in Phoenix. I told him that I had no particular desire to come out to the parking lot after a long day at work to find my car a spreading, bubbling pool of molten metal and plastic. I've never regretted that decision. :-) -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From ijamie at sympatico.ca Sat Jul 20 10:19:10 2002 From: ijamie at sympatico.ca (Ian sympatico) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 13:19:10 -0400 Subject: Guilty pleasures? References: <19e.5868568.2a6a3dc1@aol.com> Message-ID: <007401c23011$8fef5800$cb815f41@idirect.com> > Dragonflight, Dragonquest, and Dragonsong and Dragonsinger I remember > fondly. About when White Dragon came out I realized she'd lost it. No, No. White Dragon was the best of the lot. After that she lost it. Ian From yhcrana13 at hotmail.com Sat Jul 20 10:36:24 2002 From: yhcrana13 at hotmail.com (A. Nonymous) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 12:36:24 -0500 Subject: Guilty pleasures? Message-ID: Wow, I think I should maybe be embarassed or something. I'm totally unrepentant for liking nearly every movie anyone has listed on this thread, with the notable exception of Buckaroo Banzai. Maybe it comes from my classification system. I like Films and Movies. Films are for serious contemplation and dramatic resonance; the likes of Citizen Kane, The Battleship Potemkin, The Maltese Falcon, etc. Movies are strictly for entertainment, like nearly evey Schwarzeneggar movie, Big Trouble in Little China, The Jerk, etc. Josh Collins The Guide is definitive. Reality is frequently inaccurate. (Douglas Adams - The Restaurant at the End of the Universe) yhcrana13 at hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sat Jul 20 10:53:50 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 10:53:50 -0700 Subject: Guilty pleasures? In-Reply-To: References: <19e.5868568.2a6a3dc1@aol.com> <19e.5868568.2a6a3dc1@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020720105332.00ac0270@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:19 AM 7/20/2002 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >Dragonflight, Dragonquest, and Dragonsong and Dragonsinger I remember >fondly. About when White Dragon came out I realized she'd lost it. You went one further than I did. :-) From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sat Jul 20 10:58:22 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 10:58:22 -0700 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version In-Reply-To: <0661B70B-9BEE-11D6-A897-00039386187A@adelphia.net> References: <5f.2a29f3c9.2a6a514b@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020720105805.00a70ec0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:36 AM 7/20/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: >And why go to a convention to see Steve? Let's all go to Vegas, take over >a poker table and quiz Steve while he fleeces us. YES! From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sat Jul 20 11:01:17 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 11:01:17 -0700 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version In-Reply-To: <5b.2b0f6398.2a6ad004@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020720110008.02f60eb0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:39 AM 7/20/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 7/20/2002 8:36:52 AM Mountain Daylight Time, >zizban at adelphia.net writes: > > > > And why go to a convention to see Steve? Let's all go to Vegas, take > > over a poker table and quiz Steve while he fleeces us. > >I'll bring my Dad, and let him fleece Steve (my father is also a poker >player). >:) If we ever did that, it would have to be in the winter because >it's WAY too hot in Vegas now. He's welcome. I certainly won't claim to be among the top players in Las Vegas. But, so long as the game is limit Hold 'em, there is no one in this town I'm afraid of. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sat Jul 20 11:04:29 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 11:04:29 -0700 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version In-Reply-To: References: <0661B70B-9BEE-11D6-A897-00039386187A@adelphia.net> <0661B70B-9BEE-11D6-A897-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020720110411.02f632a0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:22 AM 7/20/2002 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >Conventions are cheaper. Shhhh From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Jul 20 11:53:45 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 20 Jul 2002 13:53:45 -0500 Subject: Guilty pleasures? In-Reply-To: <007401c23011$8fef5800$cb815f41@idirect.com> References: <19e.5868568.2a6a3dc1@aol.com> <007401c23011$8fef5800$cb815f41@idirect.com> Message-ID: "Ian sympatico" writes: > > Dragonflight, Dragonquest, and Dragonsong and Dragonsinger I remember > > fondly. About when White Dragon came out I realized she'd lost it. > > No, No. White Dragon was the best of the lot. After that she lost it. Think of the price of oatmeal! It came out after a long delay and with a lot of hoopla, and I and everybody I knew who read it then was very disappointed at the time. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From bertowud at gator.net Sat Jul 20 12:56:23 2002 From: bertowud at gator.net (Robert Wood) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 15:56:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Great Weapons (was: interview) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3901.24.136.62.181.1027194983.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> David Dyer-Bennit wrote: > Thomas Yan writes: >> Mr. Pointy, the Mighty Morganti Twig of Doom. [1] >> >> (I've joked in the past about non-blade Morganti weapons, e.g. a >> Morganti toothpicks, Morganti chewing gum, Morganti pocket lint, etc.; >> a friend suggested Morganti bed linen.) > > And, of course, that most deadly of all weapons, the morganti fountain > pen. The pen is of course mightier than the sword. Robert From Gaertk at aol.com Sat Jul 20 14:48:20 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 17:48:20 -0400 Subject: Great Weapons (was: interview) Message-ID: <7F7E6958.365F5462.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:14:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, Thomas Yan writes: > Starshadw at aol.com writes: >> Knightrider, perhaps? ?No, wait.....that was a car...... >> >> How about Truthseeker? > > Mr. Pointy, the Mighty Morganti Twig of Doom. [1] > > (I've joked in the past about non-blade Morganti weapons, > e.g. a Morganti toothpicks, Morganti chewing gum, Morganti > pocket lint, etc.; a friend suggested Morganti bed linen.) After _Dragon_, I was seriously expecting Godslayer to be a morningstar. And my vote for most evil weapon would be the Morganti blowdart. And we even know they exist: Vlad mentions carrying them when we see him changing weapons. --KG From Gaertk at aol.com Sat Jul 20 14:55:16 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 17:55:16 -0400 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version Message-ID: <1FF9A1E8.4467C9B2.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Sat, 20 Jul 2002 1:48:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, Matthew Hunter writes: [romantic tension between vald and Kiera] > there are something like two throwaway lines concerning > mildly involved kisses between Vlad and Kiera (one per > book?), never mentioned again. The only one I remember is in _Jhereg_, and they joke about it. >?I'm obviously going to have to dig out the books, find > the references, and start a Loony Theory Compilation. A while ago on rasfw I posted a bunch of predictions, including a bunch for the Dragaera books: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3CDD8DF5.9242E9D6%40worldnet.att.net (that link should be one line) --KG From matthew at infodancer.org Sat Jul 20 14:57:02 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 16:57:02 -0500 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version In-Reply-To: <1FF9A1E8.4467C9B2.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <1FF9A1E8.4467C9B2.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020720215702.GD16423@infodancer.org> On Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 05:55:16PM -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated Sat, 20 Jul 2002 1:48:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, Matthew Hunter writes: > [romantic tension between vald and Kiera] > > there are something like two throwaway lines concerning > > mildly involved kisses between Vlad and Kiera (one per > > book?), never mentioned again. > The only one I remember is in _Jhereg_, and they joke about > it. That is one of those that I remember; I vaguely recall another example in my rereading, in one of the other books. > >?I'm obviously going to have to dig out the books, find > > the references, and start a Loony Theory Compilation. > A while ago on rasfw I posted a bunch of predictions, > including a bunch for the Dragaera books: > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3CDD8DF5.9242E9D6%40worldnet.att.net > (that link should be one line) Thanks. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From matthew at infodancer.org Sat Jul 20 14:58:42 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 16:58:42 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons (was: interview) In-Reply-To: <3901.24.136.62.181.1027194983.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> References: <3901.24.136.62.181.1027194983.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> Message-ID: <20020720215842.GE16423@infodancer.org> On Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 03:56:23PM -0400, Robert Wood wrote: > David Dyer-Bennit wrote: > > Thomas Yan writes: > >> Mr. Pointy, the Mighty Morganti Twig of Doom. [1] > >> (I've joked in the past about non-blade Morganti weapons, e.g. a > >> Morganti toothpicks, Morganti chewing gum, Morganti pocket lint, etc.; > >> a friend suggested Morganti bed linen.) > > And, of course, that most deadly of all weapons, the morganti fountain > > pen. > The pen is of course mightier than the sword. Given that we have seen Morganti weapons of all shapes, sizes, and qualities... I shudder to propose the Morganti Bic. Available in packs of 20 for those especially long days. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Sat Jul 20 17:31:50 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 19:31:50 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons (was: interview) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020719210155.00a5f010@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: <3D3A00F6.C80D0DB9@attbi.com> Steve: Don't be rude. Her name is not Godslayer. Vlad says so, and he should know. Mia From scs at di.org Sat Jul 20 17:22:52 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 20:22:52 -0400 Subject: Great Weapons (was: interview) Message-ID: <20020721002252.GA26965@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) writes: > Given that we have seen Morganti weapons of all shapes, sizes, > and qualities... I shudder to propose the Morganti Bic. > > Available in packs of 20 for those especially long days. Seventeen. -- "I've thought of her every day for the last ten years, Jar Jar. Every handful of Reese's Pieces reminds me of her beautiful, dark eyes." "You'sa soundin' like you be needin' a Pepsi, Ani." Andrew Porter Glendinning, on Slashdot From scs at di.org Sat Jul 20 17:31:14 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 20:31:14 -0400 Subject: Guilty pleasures? Message-ID: <20020721003114.GA26972@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Stacy writes: > The Conan movies - now THAT's a guilty pleasure. -sighs- Oh, and how > about Big Trouble in Little China? Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai? For me it's just about any Kevin Smith movie. We just got our vacation pictures back. In one shot, my son and I bear a disgusting resemblance to Jay (him) and Silent Bob (me). Is this a sign? On the book front, my short-time fix is `Good Omens'. I can open it, read any ten pages, and be a happy camper. -- "I've thought of her every day for the last ten years, Jar Jar. Every handful of Reese's Pieces reminds me of her beautiful, dark eyes." "You'sa soundin' like you be needin' a Pepsi, Ani." Andrew Porter Glendinning, on Slashdot From singram at videotron.ca Sat Jul 20 17:44:36 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 20:44:36 -0400 Subject: Great Weapons (was: interview) References: <20020721002252.GA26965@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <0ab901c2304f$ca411e10$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Simmons" To: "Dragaera Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 8:22 PM Subject: Re: Great Weapons (was: interview) > Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) writes: > > > Given that we have seen Morganti weapons of all shapes, sizes, > > and qualities... I shudder to propose the Morganti Bic. > > > > Available in packs of 20 for those especially long days. > > Seventeen. > -- *GROAN* From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Sat Jul 20 18:52:26 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 18:52:26 -0700 Subject: Lonesome Oct (was: Re: the next vlad book?) In-Reply-To: <12c.14962466.2a6a3d65@aol.com> References: <12c.14962466.2a6a3d65@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020721015226.GA9635@ofb.net> On Sat, Jul 20, 2002 at 12:13:25AM -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/19/2002 3:10:43 PM Mountain Daylight Time, mneme at io.com > writes: > > > However, symbols -also- matter -- the whole point of Jack having > > wrong wand was that -despite- his intentions, by the rules of the game > > (the rules being a big ugly symbol), he was on the opening side > > because he was holding the opening wand. > > Not necessarily. I don't think that simply by holding the wrong instrument, > one's side in the battle changes - unless one KNOWS one is holding the right > instrument. The opening side was winning because Jack's willpower was being Um. Y'all seem to have interpreted things differently than I did. I never thought the losing side was supposed to be destroyed because of the rules, as some punishment or cosmic bookkeeping. I figured that the process of victory, of overcoming the opposing energy, had as a side effect the destruction of those wielding the opposing energy. Through Snuff's intervention Jack suddenly stopped opposing the closing wand and was taken out of the loop, so the portal got shut nice and easy without messy backlash and backwash. Had Snuff not intervened Jill would probably have been destroyed by the effects of Jack overcoming her and opening the gate. > I still don't agree with your theory that simply be holding one tool over > another, a person's side in the battle changes. It's not the TOOL that's > doing the work - it's the WILLPOWER of the person. By intent Jack was closer and Jill opener. By effect Jack was opener and Jill closer. For the purposes of being killed, I suggest that 'side' doesn't matter, no matter how you define it; all that matters is whether you get hit by the magical bulldozer of victory. > > unkillable -- he doesn't expect to die if he loses to begin with, and > > his (known) survival makes it clear that he's an exception to this > > "rule". > Again, not necessarily. Maybe he's survived this long because whenever he's > managed to make it to one of these little shin-digs, the closers always win. Logic says the closers have always won before, and I'm almost certain the textev says this as well. At some point Grey says to Snuff "This is your first time, of course" and Snuff says "No", 'knowing what I was giving away by that.' I.e. if you've been to these before and survived, you were a closer. If the openers had ever won the world would be rather different. That's the point... -xx- Damien X-) From randi128 at aol.com Sat Jul 20 19:11:26 2002 From: randi128 at aol.com (randi128 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 22:11:26 -0400 Subject: Zelazny Message-ID: <3D9AE809.0B804BBF.00A5729D@aol.com> Im going to put in my two cents. I read the Amber books when I was in high school. One of my buddies had them as a speacial edition with all the books together in two volumes. He gave them to me when he got religeon, he couldn't have them in his house. I was awed at the plot line and writing at the time. I have revisited them several times over the last 15 years and they are just as good today as they were then. I have read some of Zelazny's other works, but I still believ the Amber series to be his best.In my opinion they are a must for any fantasy buff's bookshelf. John Barbato From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Jul 20 21:24:30 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 20 Jul 2002 23:24:30 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons (was: interview) In-Reply-To: <3901.24.136.62.181.1027194983.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> References: <3901.24.136.62.181.1027194983.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> Message-ID: "Robert Wood" writes: > David Dyer-Bennit wrote: > > Thomas Yan writes: > >> Mr. Pointy, the Mighty Morganti Twig of Doom. [1] > >> > >> (I've joked in the past about non-blade Morganti weapons, e.g. a > >> Morganti toothpicks, Morganti chewing gum, Morganti pocket lint, etc.; > >> a friend suggested Morganti bed linen.) > > > > And, of course, that most deadly of all weapons, the morganti fountain > > pen. > > The pen is of course mightier than the sword. Yes, exactly. Of course, for risk of accidental fatal damage the morganti *paper* is actually the worst. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Jul 20 21:35:35 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 20 Jul 2002 23:35:35 -0500 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version In-Reply-To: <1FF9A1E8.4467C9B2.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <1FF9A1E8.4467C9B2.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: Gaertk at aol.com writes: > In a message dated Sat, 20 Jul 2002 1:48:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, Matthew Hunter writes: > > [romantic tension between vald and Kiera] > > > there are something like two throwaway lines concerning > > mildly involved kisses between Vlad and Kiera (one per > > book?), never mentioned again. > > The only one I remember is in _Jhereg_, and they joke about > it. Jhereg, chapter 4, 11.7% in: She flowed up to me and greeted me with a kiss that would have made Cawti jealous if she were the jealous type. I gave as good as I got, and pulled up a chair for her. Yendi, chapter 5, 51.3% also has one: She chuckled, gave me a courtesy, and kissed me warmly. I didn't find anything in Teckla, but I could have missed it buried in all the *other* kissing that was going on. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From bertowud at gator.net Sat Jul 20 21:35:36 2002 From: bertowud at gator.net (Robert Wood) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 00:35:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Great Weapons (was: interview) In-Reply-To: <2958.24.136.62.181.1027226086.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> References: <2958.24.136.62.181.1027226086.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> Message-ID: <2959.24.136.62.181.1027226136.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> > David Dyer-Bennit wrote: >> "Robert Wood" writes: >>> The pen is of course mightier than the sword. >> >> Yes, exactly. >> >> Of course, for risk of accidental fatal damage the morganti *paper* is >> actually the worst. > > Ooo! Death by paper cut! That's got to be the worst. > > Robert Why do I keep forgetting to hit the "Reply to All" button? Robert From FelixEisen at aol.com Sat Jul 20 23:47:03 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 02:47:03 EDT Subject: Kiera & Vlad, sittin' in a ... Message-ID: Hmmmm. Makes me wonder -- did Sethra and ... I don't remember Vlad's first incarnation's name ... have something between them, and if so, does Sethra still feel echos of that, in essence have a low-line desire for Vlad? Interesting; I hadn't thought of that angle. I'd be willing to bet that Steve hadn't thought of it either, but that's mostly because I'm no longer in Las Vegas -- which means he can't actually take me up on the bet. ;) And having lived in both LV and Florida (Ft. Lauderdale, right now), I can honestly say that Las Vegas is worse. In regards to the 'dry heat' comment, my reply is thus: 'An oven is a dry heat. Go turn your oven up to 450 and stand in front of the open door for a couple hours, see how YOU like it.' Felix Eisen aka Thomas Crain From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Sun Jul 21 05:30:38 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 07:30:38 -0500 Subject: Comic books References: Message-ID: Jose Marquez wrote: > Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >> >> >> These days, you can even find real good writing in comic >> books: Gaiman's , Foglio's , and >> I've just discovered Smith's . > > I feel compelled to mention Ennis' . Great stuff I agree if there is any one 'comic' book to read from Ennis it'd be Preacher, it has the quality of story that one expects from a novel, to say it is true art would be to desecrate the term art for my own purposes to display a lot of the other corporate driven 'comics' as being just that (money engines) and not being art. If you haven't try Dave Sim's cerebus it's worth the time. From mendo666 at hotmail.com Sun Jul 21 07:59:58 2002 From: mendo666 at hotmail.com (Ian Edwards) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 10:59:58 -0400 Subject: FHYA and Jhereg Message-ID: This just occured to me in idle musings while I am in the middle of rereading the Dragaera novels: Paarfi never once makes mention in FHYA of the Second Dragon-Jhereg War, which, according to Aliera in Jhereg, was a major part in Adron's Disaster. So, did Paarfi simply miss something big, or is Aliera lying (and considering that she is almost directly responsible for the Disaster, thanks to not telling her Daddy her plans, she might not like talking about it)? Ian "Wizard's first rule: people are stupid. People can be made to believe any lie, either because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it's true." _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From rone at ennui.org Sun Jul 21 11:25:12 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (figmentality) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 11:25:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who is that mystery man? Message-ID: <20020721182512.3F1A026E25@boredom.ennui.org> In _The Sandman_, issue 56, page 9 (or in the "World's End" trade collection, page 147), look at panels 5-6, the guy at the window. Does he look familiar, or is it just me? rone -- Constancy of the speed of light is a conclusion, yes it is a conclusion based on nonconvincing, irrational assumptions. WHAT IS LIGHT?! Whose light? From what sourse? Please do not mention electronagnetics - the same applies to them. - Alexander Abian From singram at videotron.ca Sun Jul 21 11:57:17 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 14:57:17 -0400 Subject: FHYA and Jhereg References: Message-ID: <001801c230e8$6f66f700$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Edwards" To: Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 10:59 AM Subject: FHYA and Jhereg > This just occured to me in idle musings while I am in the middle of > rereading the Dragaera novels: > > Paarfi never once makes mention in FHYA of the Second Dragon-Jhereg War, > which, according to Aliera in Jhereg, was a major part in Adron's Disaster. > So, did Paarfi simply miss something big, or is Aliera lying (and > considering that she is almost directly responsible for the Disaster, thanks > to not telling her Daddy her plans, she might not like talking about it)? > > Ian I'm more inclined to believe that Paarfi missed something big. Remember, most of the dialog would have been 'deduced' by Paarfi based on historical documents, second/third hand retellings and ... poetry. -Scott From Gaertk at aol.com Sun Jul 21 12:55:57 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 15:55:57 -0400 Subject: Who is that mystery man? Message-ID: <3F6E1292.7E62F14B.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Sun, 21 Jul 2002 1:25:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, rone at ennui.org (figmentality) writes: > In _The Sandman_, issue 56, page 9 (or in the "World's > End" trade collection, page 147), look at panels 5-6, the > guy at the window. > Does he look familiar, or is it just me? Gaiman is on record confirming that Brust has two cameos in that story arc (he's also the guy with the beerstein in the first issue). And supposedly Cats Laughing make a cameo in "Sunday Mourning", but I'm not sure where. The most likely place is the "four hairy guys with guitars", but none of them look much like Brust. Or Emma Bull. --KG From singram at videotron.ca Sun Jul 21 13:07:34 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 16:07:34 -0400 Subject: Who is that mystery man? References: <3F6E1292.7E62F14B.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <003a01c230f2$4f5a6be0$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 3:55 PM Subject: Re: Who is that mystery man? > In a message dated Sun, 21 Jul 2002 1:25:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, rone at ennui.org (figmentality) writes: > > And supposedly Cats Laughing make a cameo in "Sunday > Mourning", but I'm not sure where. The most likely place > is the "four hairy guys with guitars", but none of them look > much like Brust. Or Emma Bull. Cat's Laughing was also made frequent appearances in the X-men comics. They appeared so often I thought they were going to develop mutant powers. From Gaertk at aol.com Sun Jul 21 13:22:07 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 16:22:07 -0400 Subject: Comfort and Guilt Books Message-ID: <53DCA6CF.18E2DD44.00048EA6@aol.com> Things I feel a bit guilty about... I just spent $43 on Amazon for comics, but I HAD to do that to get free shipping on the Duane omnibus ;) I own all nine Wheel of Time books, the latest three were purchased new... in hardcover. I've read all four of Asprin's Phule books, and own all ten Myth books and will buy _Something M.Y.T.H. Inc._ if its ever published. I've read Lackey's Vlademar books through the Owl trilogy. I've read Pern through Dolphins. I've read Feist up to the first Krondor book. I've read Salvatore's Forgotten Realms books through Spine. But the most money I've ever wasted was on Magic: the Gathering. I don't know exactly how much, but I'm pretty sure its four digits. For comfort I've got Pratchett, Brust, Tolkien, , , Douglas Adams, Bill Watterson, Scott Adams, Larry Gonick, Gary Larson, Diane Duane, and Barry Hughart. --KG From stvitus at flash.net Sun Jul 21 13:47:14 2002 From: stvitus at flash.net (Nikki M. Pill) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 15:47:14 -0500 Subject: Who is that mystery man? In-Reply-To: <3F6E1292.7E62F14B.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: > Gaiman is on record confirming that Brust has two cameos in > that story arc (he's also the guy with the beerstein in the > first issue). > He's also a random gypsy at the Rennaissance Faire in *The Wake.* From tsarren at alyra.org Sun Jul 21 18:10:02 2002 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Kat) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 20:10:02 -0500 Subject: Comfort and Guilt Books In-Reply-To: <53DCA6CF.18E2DD44.00048EA6@aol.com>; from Gaertk@aol.com on Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 04:22:07PM -0400 References: <53DCA6CF.18E2DD44.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020721201002.C26799@galadriel.alyra.org> On Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 04:22:07PM -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > I've read Feist up to the first Krondor book. I read Feist's Riftwar Saga in my early teens, and have yet to re-read it... was it really that bad? Also, the Krondor books and the other two (Prince of the Blood and The King's Buccaneer, I think) that come between Riftwar and Serpentwar sagas range from being blase to downright bad. The PC game Betrayel at Krondor, otoh... wow, that was a great RPG. > But the most money I've ever wasted was on Magic: the > Gathering. I don't know exactly how much, but I'm pretty > sure its four digits. You are not alone. I'm pretty sure the leftmost digit for me is a 1, but still.. Kat From tyan at twcny.rr.com Sun Jul 21 18:38:54 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 21:38:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020720112505.00a6a4d0@mail.dd-b.net> (message from Lydia Nickerson on Sat, 20 Jul 2002 11:32:13 -0500) References: <"Ian sympatico"'s message of "Wed, 17 Jul 2002 21:48:38 -0400"> <2682B131.054154FE.00048EA6@aol.com> <15669.58791.198412.512656@eris.io.com> <3D35EFBF.A257F302@attbi.com> <002901c22dfd$3d680c00$6c845f41@idirect.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020720112505.00a6a4d0@mail.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <200207220138.g6M1csLL012837@localhost.twcny.rr.com> [Lydy accidentally emailed her reply to only me, but confirmed to me in e-mail that it was intended for the list. I haven't snipped anything out of her post.] Lydia Nickerson wrote on Sat, 20 Jul 2002 11:32:13 > TKY wrote: > >"Ian sympatico" writes: > > > > > > If anyone has not read Zelazny yet I don't know why they are on > > > this list! > > > >? Surely there are at least a few people here who haven't read any > >Zelazny. Right? > > > >Also, I like both Steve's and Zelazny's books, but in general, they > >don't feel that similar to me. I suspect I'm in the minority; anyone > >else in there with me? > > _To Reign in Hell_ is, I believe, a deliberate Zelazny pastiche. It's > certainly wonderful in its own way, and very like Zelazny. There are > things about the world building in Dragaera that remind me of Zelazny, even > though the stories and writing don't. Paarfi and Zelazny are in many ways > worlds apart. TRiH does remind somewhat of Zelazny. > >I've read only _Cryptonomicon_ (no 'r' at the end), which I liked a > >lot. (I couldn't tell if Inner and Outer Q were real or not. > >I had to do a little Googling to find out.) I hear that he doesn't do > >endings ([well] / [at all], take your pick), but Crypto's was ok by > >me. > > So, does this mean you can explain the ending to me? I utterly adore the > book, its shifts in time, its layered construction, its characters and > plot, but I'm damned if I can figure out what they're going to do at the > ending. Heh. I'm not sure what they're going to do, but I liked the way the various threads had converged by that point, and it was clear he was setting things up for a sequel. Did you catch the hints that there is a clear-cut SF element? Bill Snyder pointed this out on RASFW, and I'm afraid to say at first I thought it was all bullshit, but upon closer inspection, he's right that there's very good evidence that there is, um, let's call it a "Harry Potter connection". For spoiler details, see http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=F4635C5415B8DF0E.342CB2078C8B6B1E.4E9DA9C7BE55CBE2%40lp.airnews.net (You may need to reform that URL into one line -- *wow* that's a big Message-ID!) > _Cryptonomicon_ is the best worked up of his novels, in my opinion. I am > also very fond of _Snow Crash_, but it's an 80s sort of thing, cyberpunk on > speed. I didn't much like _Diamond Age_. I should read it again, since I > can't articulate why I didn't like it I probably wasn't paying enough > attention the first time through. It's structure is weird and limp, > though. Maybe that's why... - tky From Gaertk at aol.com Sun Jul 21 18:36:20 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 21:36:20 -0400 Subject: Comfort and Guilt Books Message-ID: <720F7370.6B52309A.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Sun, 21 Jul 2002 8:10:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, Kat writes: [Feist's Midkemia books] > I read Feist's Riftwar Saga in my early teens, and have > yet to re-read it... was it really that bad? Also, the > Krondor books and the other two (Prince of the Blood and > The King's Buccaneer, I think) that come between Riftwar > and Serpentwar sagas range from being blase to downright > bad. The Riftwar was pretty good, though I disliked the ending to _Magician_, and all the following books made that ending worse. When _Rage of a Demon King_ was announced, my first thought was "Pug finally realises that Macros is the archvillain and kills him." Unfortunately, that didn't happen. On a positive note, the Empire trilogy he co-wrote with Janny Wurts is pretty good; most people prefer it to anything either wrote solo. > The PC game Betrayel at Krondor, otoh... wow, that > was a great RPG. I'm a purist: I reserve "RPG" for games where you can truly roleplay, and so far I haven't seen a single-person game that manages that (Star Control 2 and Ultima 5 come closest). But BAK is definitely one of the all-time great fantasy adventure games, and I really love how magic was handled (spell effectiveness proportional to mana used). Too bad the spells implemented were horribly unbalanced. --KG From tsarren at alyra.org Sun Jul 21 19:07:07 2002 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Kat) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 21:07:07 -0500 Subject: Comfort and Guilt Books In-Reply-To: <720F7370.6B52309A.00048EA6@aol.com>; from Gaertk@aol.com on Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 09:36:20PM -0400 References: <720F7370.6B52309A.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020721210707.G26799@galadriel.alyra.org> On Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 09:36:20PM -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > The Riftwar was pretty good, though I disliked the ending to > _Magician_, and all the following books made that ending > worse. When _Rage of a Demon King_ was announced, my first > thought was "Pug finally realises that Macros is the > archvillain and kills him." Unfortunately, that didn't > happen. Heh. > On a positive note, the Empire trilogy he co-wrote with > Janny Wurts is pretty good; most people prefer it to > anything either wrote solo. I rather enjoyed it. > > The PC game Betrayel at Krondor, otoh... wow, that > > was a great RPG. > > I'm a purist: I reserve "RPG" for games where you can truly > roleplay, and so far I haven't seen a single-person game > that manages that (Star Control 2 and Ultima 5 come > closest). Ah, Starcon2. Beautiful game, well-done. One of the designers was also on the design team for a much older game called Starflight, which accounts for the similarities between the two. Though, from the descriptions I've heard of a game called Elite, that game would probably have the features necessary for you to call it an RPG; the most notable of which is that it is completely open-ended. > But BAK is definitely one of the all-time great fantasy > adventure games, and I really love how magic was handled > (spell effectiveness proportional to mana used). Too bad > the spells implemented were horribly unbalanced. I liked the mana-usage as well; the aspect that really made it enjoyable for me was the realism (as opposed to, say, a Final Fantasy game, to use an example with which the greatest number of people will probably be farmiliar). Kat From andrew at networkharmoni.com.au Sun Jul 21 21:43:38 2002 From: andrew at networkharmoni.com.au (Andrew Bailey) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:43:38 +0800 Subject: the next vlad book? References: Message-ID: <3D3B8D7A.3090508@networkharmoni.com.au> Thomas Yan wrote: > Starshadw at aol.com writes: > >>[book reading rate] >>I lost count years ago. I couldn't even begin to guess how many books I've >>read. And we don't even want to talk about all of the many books I re-read. > A couple of books that have been highlights of my reading year.. The light and the heavy: The Light: The Eyre Affair by Jasper Fforde. I liked this book , its funny and has some cute ideas. IMO a good first effort. Plus it comes with and online upgrade option http://www.jasperfforde.com/upgradegc.html NOTE: this site ( and the associated ones ) is Spoiler ridden. The Heavy: Perdido Street Station by China Mieville This was also a good book, kind of slow to start with but picks up about a third of the way through. Andrew. From mneme at io.com Mon Jul 22 10:34:05 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:34:05 -0500 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version In-Reply-To: <5f.2a29f3c9.2a6a514b@aol.com> References: <5f.2a29f3c9.2a6a514b@aol.com> Message-ID: <15676.16909.142550.700922@hagbard.io.com> Starshadw at aol.com writes: >You know, I NEVER go to conventions. I'm not big on large crowds of people >pushing and shoving each other, nor do I suffer from "star fever." Do people who never go to conventions really think this is what they are like? Huh. Josh, who goes to largish parties held by friends, which largely consist of friends and accquaintences sitting around munching snacks and chatting about anything they feel like, or playing music, whether said friends and acquaintences work in the SF publishing industry or some other field...which is what he means when he says "conventions". -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From mneme at io.com Mon Jul 22 10:44:06 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:44:06 -0500 Subject: Comfort and Guilt Books In-Reply-To: <720F7370.6B52309A.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <720F7370.6B52309A.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <15676.17510.646636.603500@hagbard.io.com> Gaertk at aol.com writes: >The Riftwar was pretty good, though I disliked the ending to >_Magician_, and all the following books made that ending >worse. Plus the paperback version of Magician had that -awful- cliff-hanger between books, where it cut away from the title character and focused on the boring characters for most of the first half, in a really ugly way. The other unfortunate thing is that Riftwar is apparently based on Feist's home campaign, which apparently had heavy EPT/Tekumel inclusions, which Fiest refuses to acknowledge despite their obviousness to anyone who has read the Barker books (which are, in any case, far better than any of the Fiest books except -maybe- the "Mistress of the Empire" (etc) trilogy). -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From Starshadw at aol.com Mon Jul 22 11:01:57 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 14:01:57 EDT Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version Message-ID: <41.207f1148.2a6da295@aol.com> In a message dated 7/22/2002 11:34:27 AM Mountain Daylight Time, mneme at io.com writes: > Do people who never go to conventions really think this is what they > are like? I've been to enough of them in the past that my opinion is based on my experience. I've been to big ones (StarCon in Denver - when Patrick Stewart made his last appearance) and to smaller ones (small gaming convention in Wisconsin) and they were all the same, whether they were big or little. Lots of people milling about aimlessly, crowding each other, etc. Stacy From hhertzof at panix.com Mon Jul 22 11:23:11 2002 From: hhertzof at panix.com (Hilary Hertzoff) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 14:23:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Athyra In-Reply-To: <001801c230e8$6f66f700$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: Hi, I've been lurking on this list for a while, but really haven't had time to post. However, I just found a copy of Athyra in our library's booksale and since the library collection already has a copy, I thought it should get to someone who really wants it. We charge 25 cents for paperbacks, so I'll send it to the first person who asks me for it for $2.50 including postage and handling...anything above the cost of postage will be given back to the library. Hilary Hilary L. Hertzoff From here to there, Mamaroneck Public Library a bunny goes where a bunny must. Mamaroneck, NY - Little Bunny on the Move hhertzof at panix.com by Peter McCarty From adina at panix.com Mon Jul 22 11:36:28 2002 From: adina at panix.com (Adina Adler) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 14:36:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version In-Reply-To: <41.207f1148.2a6da295@aol.com> (Starshadw@aol.com) References: <41.207f1148.2a6da295@aol.com> Message-ID: <200207221836.g6MIaSq12568@panix3.panix.com> Stacy wrote: > >In a message dated 7/22/2002 11:34:27 AM Mountain Daylight Time, mneme at io.com >writes: > > >> Do people who never go to conventions really think this is what they >> are like? > >I've been to enough of them in the past that my opinion is based on my >experience. I've been to big ones (StarCon in Denver - when Patrick Stewart >made his last appearance) and to smaller ones (small gaming convention in >Wisconsin) and they were all the same, whether they were big or little. Lots >of people milling about aimlessly, crowding each other, etc. You might want to try one of the smaller, more literary conventions, like Wiscon, or Potlatch, or Readercon. (Note: I'm on the committee that runs Readercon, so I'm biased.) Maybe Minicon, though I don't know how big it is these days. I've been to several conventions where Steve has given readings, and he's always delightful. -- Adina From tyan at twcny.rr.com Mon Jul 22 11:51:10 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: 22 Jul 2002 14:51:10 -0400 Subject: Cons [Vlad Interview Qs] In-Reply-To: Adina Adler's message of "Mon, 22 Jul 2002 14:36:28 -0400 (EDT)" References: <41.207f1148.2a6da295@aol.com> <200207221836.g6MIaSq12568@panix3.panix.com> Message-ID: Adina Adler writes: > Stacy wrote: > > > >In a message dated 7/22/2002 11:34:27 AM Mountain Daylight Time, mneme at io.com > >writes: > > > >> Do people who never go to conventions really think this is what they > >> are like? > > > >I've been to enough of them in the past that my opinion is based on my > >experience. I've been to big ones (StarCon in Denver - when Patrick Stewart > >made his last appearance) and to smaller ones (small gaming convention in > >Wisconsin) and they were all the same, whether they were big or little. Lots > >of people milling about aimlessly, crowding each other, etc. There are lots of different kinds of conventions. I don't like big crowds, either. > You might want to try one of the smaller, more literary conventions, > like Wiscon, or Potlatch, or Readercon. (Note: I'm on the committee > that runs Readercon, so I'm biased.) Maybe Minicon, though I don't > know how big it is these days. I've been to several conventions where > Steve has given readings, and he's always delightful. I understand at one point it was a lot bigger, but Minicon, when I went a few years ago, seemed pretty cozy to me. Of course, in large part this was due to having a friendly roommate (hi David!), who was one of a number of people I recognized online from RASFW and RASFF. I *did* stupidly shy away from saying hi to some people and totally avoided some events that, in retrospect, I should have at least sampled. But at least I finally did make it to one of the music-making sessions, where Steve was one of many talented, entertaining musicians. (It is true that if you're sensitive to smoke, you might want to listen from the hallway instead of in the room itself.) - tky From scs at di.org Mon Jul 22 12:06:27 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 15:06:27 -0400 Subject: Comfort and Guilt Books Message-ID: <20020722190626.GA14049@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Left one off my list -- Kinky Friedman always makes me feel better. Out on the streets of Greenwich Village, young men were picking up young women for the purpose of dining. Young women were picking up young men for the purpose of dining. Young men were picking up young men for the purpose of dining. You are what you eat. Most of his books are 20 pages of mystery and 200 pages of acerbic commentary and conversation. Recommended. -- "I've thought of her every day for the last ten years, Jar Jar. Every handful of Reese's Pieces reminds me of her beautiful, dark eyes." "You'sa soundin' like you be needin' a Pepsi, Ani." Andrew Porter Glendinning, on Slashdot From bertowud at gator.net Mon Jul 22 12:30:18 2002 From: bertowud at gator.net (Robert Wood) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 15:30:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Athyra In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57291.209.208.44.34.1027366218.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> > However, I just found a copy of Athyra in our library's booksale and > since the library collection already has a copy, I thought it should > get to someone who really wants it. > > We charge 25 cents for paperbacks, so I'll send it to the first person > who asks me for it for $2.50 including postage and handling...anything > above the cost of postage will be given back to the library. > > Hilary You go! From alan at 5sc.net Mon Jul 22 12:44:35 2002 From: alan at 5sc.net (Alan) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 15:44:35 -0400 Subject: Comfort and Guilt Books In-Reply-To: <20020722190626.GA14049@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: > Left one off my list -- Kinky Friedman always makes me feel better. > > Out on the streets of Greenwich Village, young men were > picking up young women for the purpose of dining. Young women > were picking up young men for the purpose of dining. Young men > were picking up young men for the purpose of dining. > You are what you eat. > > Most of his books are 20 pages of mystery and 200 pages of acerbic > commentary and conversation. Recommended. > -- > "I've thought of her every day for the last ten years, Jar Jar. Every > handful of Reese's Pieces reminds me of her beautiful, dark eyes." > "You'sa soundin' like you be needin' a Pepsi, Ani." > Andrew Porter Glendinning, on Slashdot I love this .sig and am unashamedly adding it to my "best of" file. thanks. :) Alan From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Jul 22 12:42:19 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 22 Jul 2002 14:42:19 -0500 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version In-Reply-To: <15676.16909.142550.700922@hagbard.io.com> References: <5f.2a29f3c9.2a6a514b@aol.com> <15676.16909.142550.700922@hagbard.io.com> Message-ID: Joshua Kronengold writes: > Starshadw at aol.com writes: > >You know, I NEVER go to conventions. I'm not big on large crowds of people > >pushing and shoving each other, nor do I suffer from "star fever." > > Do people who never go to conventions really think this is what they > are like? There are conventions, and then there are conventions. From what I hear the Creation cons, for example, are pretty much as described. But aren't what *I* mean when I say "convention" at all. > Huh. > > Josh, who goes to largish parties held by friends, which largely > consist of friends and accquaintences sitting around munching snacks > and chatting about anything they feel like, or playing music, whether > said friends and acquaintences work in the SF publishing industry or > some other field...which is what he means when he says "conventions". Yep, exactly. A wild party blowout, for people whose idea of a wild blowout is talking to their friends a lot. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Jul 22 12:42:50 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 22 Jul 2002 14:42:50 -0500 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version In-Reply-To: <41.207f1148.2a6da295@aol.com> References: <41.207f1148.2a6da295@aol.com> Message-ID: Starshadw at aol.com writes: > In a message dated 7/22/2002 11:34:27 AM Mountain Daylight Time, mneme at io.com > writes: > > > > Do people who never go to conventions really think this is what they > > are like? > > I've been to enough of them in the past that my opinion is based on my > experience. I've been to big ones (StarCon in Denver - when Patrick Stewart > made his last appearance) and to smaller ones (small gaming convention in > Wisconsin) and they were all the same, whether they were big or little. Lots > of people milling about aimlessly, crowding each other, etc. But media cons and gaming cons *aren't* conventions as I use the term; and from all I hear they're nothing like the conventions I go to. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Jul 22 12:43:35 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 22 Jul 2002 14:43:35 -0500 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version In-Reply-To: <200207221836.g6MIaSq12568@panix3.panix.com> References: <41.207f1148.2a6da295@aol.com> <200207221836.g6MIaSq12568@panix3.panix.com> Message-ID: Adina Adler writes: > Stacy wrote: > > > >In a message dated 7/22/2002 11:34:27 AM Mountain Daylight Time, mneme at io.com > >writes: > > > > > >> Do people who never go to conventions really think this is what they > >> are like? > > > >I've been to enough of them in the past that my opinion is based on my > >experience. I've been to big ones (StarCon in Denver - when Patrick Stewart > >made his last appearance) and to smaller ones (small gaming convention in > >Wisconsin) and they were all the same, whether they were big or little. Lots > >of people milling about aimlessly, crowding each other, etc. > > You might want to try one of the smaller, more literary conventions, > like Wiscon, or Potlatch, or Readercon. (Note: I'm on the committee > that runs Readercon, so I'm biased.) Maybe Minicon, though I don't > know how big it is these days. I've been to several conventions where > Steve has given readings, and he's always delightful. Nice and small these days; high hundreds I think, this most recent one. And Steven gets to them (so far at least). -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Jul 22 12:47:04 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 22 Jul 2002 14:47:04 -0500 Subject: Comfort and Guilt Books In-Reply-To: <15676.17510.646636.603500@hagbard.io.com> References: <720F7370.6B52309A.00048EA6@aol.com> <15676.17510.646636.603500@hagbard.io.com> Message-ID: Joshua Kronengold writes: > Gaertk at aol.com writes: > >The Riftwar was pretty good, though I disliked the ending to > >_Magician_, and all the following books made that ending > >worse. > > Plus the paperback version of Magician had that -awful- cliff-hanger > between books, where it cut away from the title character and focused > on the boring characters for most of the first half, in a really ugly > way. > > The other unfortunate thing is that Riftwar is apparently based on > Feist's home campaign, which apparently had heavy EPT/Tekumel > inclusions, which Fiest refuses to acknowledge despite their > obviousness to anyone who has read the Barker books (which are, in any > case, far better than any of the Fiest books except -maybe- the > "Mistress of the Empire" (etc) trilogy). I think it's one step further away -- it wasn't Feist's *own* campaign, and when he was in it he didn't know that many elements derived from EPT. And having forced myself through one Barker book and one Feist book, I have to say that the Barker book was far inferior. But neither was much to my taste, either. I think Barker was working much harder on the world- and culture-building, but he was so *totally* hopeless on the characters.... A bunch of friends locally have been (maybe still are) involved in Barker's own Tekumel campaign. I hear that if the player characters weren't going to do what the gamesmaster expected, it could get...interesting. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From anthony at netdocuments.com Mon Jul 22 12:54:23 2002 From: anthony at netdocuments.com (Anthony Tedjamulia) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 13:54:23 -0600 Subject: I have a question for Mr. Taltoss Message-ID: Warning, spoiler for anyone who hasn't read Issola. Now that you know that Dragaerans are genetically-engineered Easterners, does sex with them still strike you as bestiality? From bertowud at gator.net Mon Jul 22 12:52:12 2002 From: bertowud at gator.net (Robert Wood) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 15:52:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: I have a question for Mr. Taltoss In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58427.209.208.44.34.1027367532.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> Anthony Tedjamulia writes: > Warning, spoiler for anyone who hasn't read Issola. > > > > Now that you know that Dragaerans are genetically-engineered > Easterners, does sex with them still strike you as bestiality? Now there's a kinky one for you. Is this the Steven Brust list or one of those other e-mails I get? LOL Robert From mneme at io.com Mon Jul 22 12:59:29 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 14:59:29 -0500 Subject: Comfort and Guilt Books In-Reply-To: References: <720F7370.6B52309A.00048EA6@aol.com> <15676.17510.646636.603500@hagbard.io.com> Message-ID: <15676.25633.98315.652491@hagbard.io.com> David Dyer-Bennet writes: >Joshua Kronengold writes: >> The other unfortunate thing is that Riftwar is apparently based on >> Feist's home campaign, which apparently had heavy EPT/Tekumel >> inclusions, which Fiest refuses to acknowledge despite their >> obviousness to anyone who has read the Barker books (which are, in any >> case, far better than any of the Fiest books except -maybe- the >> "Mistress of the Empire" (etc) trilogy). >I think it's one step further away -- it wasn't Feist's *own* >campaign, and when he was in it he didn't know that many elements >derived from EPT. Sorry -- by "home campaign" I meant "a campaign he played in", not "a campaign he ran". >have to say that the Barker book was far inferior. But neither was >much to my taste, either. I think Barker was working much harder on >the world- and culture-building, but he was so *totally* hopeless on >the characters.... Um...you were reading _Flamesong_, not _Man of Gold_, right? _Flamesong_ is, IMO, far inferior -- it's basically a travelouge with a plot, and (very) flat characters. _Man of Gold_ is much more of a romp, and has an interesting convoluted plot and at least -some- characters worth the name. >A bunch of friends locally have been (maybe still are) involved in >Barker's own Tekumel campaign. I hear that if the player characters >weren't going to do what the gamesmaster expected, it could >get...interesting. Sounds interesting, at least. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Jul 22 13:04:43 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 22 Jul 2002 15:04:43 -0500 Subject: Comfort and Guilt Books In-Reply-To: <15676.25633.98315.652491@hagbard.io.com> References: <720F7370.6B52309A.00048EA6@aol.com> <15676.17510.646636.603500@hagbard.io.com> <15676.25633.98315.652491@hagbard.io.com> Message-ID: Joshua Kronengold writes: > David Dyer-Bennet writes: > >Joshua Kronengold writes: > >> The other unfortunate thing is that Riftwar is apparently based on > >> Feist's home campaign, which apparently had heavy EPT/Tekumel > >> inclusions, which Fiest refuses to acknowledge despite their > >> obviousness to anyone who has read the Barker books (which are, in any > >> case, far better than any of the Fiest books except -maybe- the > >> "Mistress of the Empire" (etc) trilogy). > >I think it's one step further away -- it wasn't Feist's *own* > >campaign, and when he was in it he didn't know that many elements > >derived from EPT. > > Sorry -- by "home campaign" I meant "a campaign he played in", not "a > campaign he ran". Important point IMHO -- if he didn't set it up himself, it's much easier to believe he didn't know the source of particular elements. > >have to say that the Barker book was far inferior. But neither was > >much to my taste, either. I think Barker was working much harder on > >the world- and culture-building, but he was so *totally* hopeless on > >the characters.... > > Um...you were reading _Flamesong_, not _Man of Gold_, right? > _Flamesong_ is, IMO, far inferior -- it's basically a travelouge with > a plot, and (very) flat characters. _Man of Gold_ is much more of a > romp, and has an interesting convoluted plot and at least -some- > characters worth the name. Which was first? I thought _Man of Gold_ was first; in any case the one I read was the first one. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Mon Jul 22 14:44:14 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 16:44:14 -0500 Subject: Conventions References: <41.207f1148.2a6da295@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D3C7CAD.99A9F8C3@attbi.com> But, Stacy, Have you ever been to a *fan-run* convention? Star Trek cons are put on by promoters to make money. Some gaming cons are the same. Fan-run cons are put on by fans, for fans, to discuss, buy/sell, watch, and wear pretty much anything they want to. Mind, like every long-standing society, it helps to go with people who already know the ropes. It's got its in-jokes, its odd quirks . . . and if you don't know anybody, then everyone's hanging with old friends and you're not. FWIW Mia From zizban at adelphia.net Mon Jul 22 14:59:53 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 17:59:53 -0400 Subject: Conventions In-Reply-To: <3D3C7CAD.99A9F8C3@attbi.com> Message-ID: <5A00ACDE-9DBE-11D6-B16A-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Monday, July 22, 2002, at 05:44 PM, Mia McDavid wrote: > But, Stacy, > > Have you ever been to a *fan-run* convention? Star Trek cons are put on > by promoters to make money. Some gaming cons are the same. Fan-run > cons are put on by fans, for fans, to discuss, buy/sell, watch, and wear > pretty much anything they want to. > > Mind, like every long-standing society, it helps to go with people who > already know the ropes. It's got its in-jokes, its odd quirks . . . and > if you don't know anybody, then everyone's hanging with old friends and > you're not. > > FWIW > > Mia > > I ran two fan run conventions here in Massachusetts in the 80's and they are fun when money isn't an issue. I never made a dime on the convention I ran (we usually broke even) but the fun made it all worthwhile. I'd do it again any day. Anybody want to start a Stevecon or a Vladcon? :-) ------ Chris Turkel,Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From singram at videotron.ca Mon Jul 22 15:09:13 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 18:09:13 -0400 Subject: Conventions References: <5A00ACDE-9DBE-11D6-B16A-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <010e01c231cc$6a30fd00$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Turkel" To: Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 5:59 PM Subject: Re: Conventions > I'd do it again any day. Anybody want to start a Stevecon or a > Vladcon? :-) Loishcon From yhcrana13 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 22 15:20:28 2002 From: yhcrana13 at hotmail.com (A. Nonymous) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 17:20:28 -0500 Subject: Conventions Message-ID: > > I'd do it again any day. Anybody want to start a Stevecon or a > > Vladcon? :-) > >Loishcon How about AssassinCon? Get Steve, Bob Salvatore, Robin Hobb, David Gemmel, etc. Josh Collins The Guide is definitive. Reality is frequently inaccurate. (Douglas Adams - The Restaurant at the End of the Universe) yhcrana13 at hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From zizban at adelphia.net Mon Jul 22 15:23:41 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 18:23:41 -0400 Subject: Conventions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Monday, July 22, 2002, at 06:20 PM, A. Nonymous wrote: >> > I'd do it again any day. Anybody want to start a Stevecon or a >> > Vladcon? :-) >> >> Loishcon > > How about AssassinCon? Get Steve, Bob Salvatore, Robin Hobb, David > Gemmel, etc. > That would be a pricey combo. Remember, we have to pay for all these authors to come. I Like Steve (of course) and I had Bob Salvatore at a convention I ran. May Steve can use his connections to get some to come :-) ------ Chris Turkel,Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From hhertzof at panix.com Mon Jul 22 15:45:58 2002 From: hhertzof at panix.com (Hilary Hertzoff) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 18:45:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Athyra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just so everyone knows, this has been claimed. I'll keep my eye open for other Brust books. Hilary Hilary L. Hertzoff From here to there, Mamaroneck Public Library a bunny goes where a bunny must. Mamaroneck, NY - Little Bunny on the Move hhertzof at panix.com by Peter McCarty From Alan.Halsted at mailus.com.au Mon Jul 22 17:58:59 2002 From: Alan.Halsted at mailus.com.au (Alan Halsted) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:58:59 +1000 Subject: Comfort Books Message-ID: And add these to the list: Anything by George McDonald Fraser, particularly the Flashman books (very guilty) Most of the Creighton stuff Charles De Lint and his urban Fantasy Dark Knight Returns by Stan lee - frequent revisits Perdido Street Station had some truly excellent monsters Smart alecky detective stuff, one of the many reasons I like Brust so much (inc Crais' Elvis Cole series, Stuart kaminsky, David Handler) Carl Hiiassen Iain Banks - SF and mysteries Blokey stuff like Christopher Brookmyre (angriest and funniest man in Scotland, loves his online gaming), Nick Hornby Julian May - Many Coloured Land - first in series brilliant Cheers Alan ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please delete the e-mail & notify the system manager. We reserve the right to scan all e-mail traffic for restricted content and to monitor all e-mail traffic in general. The views and opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender and do not necessarily reflect the views of the organisation by whom they are employed, except where the sender expressly and with authority states them to be so. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been checked for the presence of computer viruses and script. We believe but do not warrant that this e-mail is free from viruses. Responsibility for virus checking rests entirely with the recipient. 5 at 356 ********************************************************************** From randomhonky at hotmail.com Mon Jul 22 18:56:40 2002 From: randomhonky at hotmail.com (T J) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 21:56:40 -0400 Subject: Assassin Novels Message-ID: I am in desperate need of somethign new to read, anyone know any good assassin/thief genre Sci/fi books or authors, i am willing to try about anything. TJS _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From singram at videotron.ca Mon Jul 22 15:11:27 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 18:11:27 -0400 Subject: Conventions References: <5A00ACDE-9DBE-11D6-B16A-00039386187A@adelphia.net> <010e01c231cc$6a30fd00$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: <012c01c231f4$89e6c9e0$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Ingram" To: "Chris Turkel" ; Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 6:09 PM Subject: Re: Conventions > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Turkel" > To: > Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 5:59 PM > Subject: Re: Conventions > > > > I'd do it again any day. Anybody want to start a Stevecon or a > > Vladcon? :-) > > Loishcon "Loioshcon" DAMN TYPOS From mneme at io.com Mon Jul 22 21:20:38 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 23:20:38 -0500 Subject: Assassin Novels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15676.55702.405065.138483@eris.io.com> T J writes: >I am in desperate need of somethign new to read, anyone know any good >assassin/thief genre Sci/fi books or authors, i am willing to try about >anything. Have you read P.C.Hodgell (Jayn, escaping from the eternal enemy of her people (and of her people's God) hides in a city where she is trained as a superb thief, among other things? How about Daniel Keys Moran's _The Long Run_ (of Trent the Theif)? -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From Alan.Halsted at mailus.com.au Mon Jul 22 21:38:09 2002 From: Alan.Halsted at mailus.com.au (Alan Halsted) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:38:09 +1000 Subject: Assassin Novels Message-ID: And Mary Gentle's 'Architecture of Desire' and maybe 'Rats and Gargoyles' is set in a thief world. There is actually an academy. It is good stuff! Alan > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Kronengold [SMTP:mneme at io.com] > Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 2:21 PM > To: T J > Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Assassin Novels > > T J writes: > >I am in desperate need of somethign new to read, anyone know any good > >assassin/thief genre Sci/fi books or authors, i am willing to try about > >anything. > > Have you read P.C.Hodgell (Jayn, escaping from the eternal enemy of > her people (and of her people's God) hides in a city where she is > trained as a superb thief, among other things? > > How about Daniel Keys Moran's _The Long Run_ (of Trent the Theif)? > > -- > Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ > _,,,--,,_ ,) > --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, > ;-;;' > /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ > > /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' > ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. 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Responsibility for virus checking rests entirely with the recipient. 5 at 356 ********************************************************************** From singram at videotron.ca Mon Jul 22 19:58:33 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:58:33 -0400 Subject: Assassin Novels References: Message-ID: <014201c23243$acdac010$17ecca18@ingram> Cruise the second hand shops and check out the Destroyer novels. Lots of snarky repartee between master and apprentice and pop culture commentary. Loads of fun, especially if you can pick some up by the original authors! -Scott ----- Original Message ----- From: "T J" To: Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 9:56 PM Subject: Assassin Novels > I am in desperate need of somethign new to read, anyone know any good > assassin/thief genre Sci/fi books or authors, i am willing to try about > anything. > > TJS > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com > From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Jul 23 06:26:45 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 06:26:45 -0700 Subject: Assassin Novels In-Reply-To: <014201c23243$acdac010$17ecca18@ingram> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020723062605.02f45e30@pop3.lvcm.com> At 10:58 PM 7/22/2002 -0400, Scott Ingram wrote: >Cruise the second hand shops and check out the Destroyer novels. Oh, yes. They're a blast. I assume no one has mentioned the Fafhrd and Grey Mouser stories of Fritz Leiber because they're too obvious. From randomhonky at hotmail.com Tue Jul 23 06:48:53 2002 From: randomhonky at hotmail.com (T J) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:48:53 -0400 Subject: Assassin Novels Message-ID: Yeah, I read the Grey Mouser and Fritz stories, good stuff. >From: Steven Brust >To: "Scott Ingram" , "T J" , > >Subject: Re: Assassin Novels >Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 06:26:45 -0700 > >At 10:58 PM 7/22/2002 -0400, Scott Ingram wrote: >>Cruise the second hand shops and check out the Destroyer novels. > >Oh, yes. They're a blast. > >I assume no one has mentioned the Fafhrd and Grey Mouser stories of Fritz >Leiber because they're too obvious. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From alan at 5sc.net Tue Jul 23 07:43:01 2002 From: alan at 5sc.net (Alan) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:43:01 -0400 Subject: Assassin Novels In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020723062605.02f45e30@pop3.lvcm.com> Message-ID: R. Alan Miller CTO Dragon Networks, Inc. > -----Original Message----- > From: Steven Brust [mailto:skzb at dreamcafe.com] > Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 09:27 > To: Scott Ingram; T J; dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Assassin Novels > > > At 10:58 PM 7/22/2002 -0400, Scott Ingram wrote: > >Cruise the second hand shops and check out the Destroyer novels. > > Oh, yes. They're a blast. > > I assume no one has mentioned the Fafhrd and Grey Mouser stories of Fritz > Leiber because they're too obvious. > > I mentioned them in my comfort list, so I guess that I'm a bit obvious. Or was stating that too obvious ? wait a minute..... Alan From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Jul 23 07:34:00 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:34:00 -0400 Subject: Assassin Novels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3A3EC5DB-9E49-11D6-BE06-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Tuesday, July 23, 2002, at 10:43 AM, Alan wrote: > > > R. Alan Miller > CTO > Dragon Networks, Inc. > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Steven Brust [mailto:skzb at dreamcafe.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 09:27 >> To: Scott Ingram; T J; dragaera at dragaera.info >> Subject: Re: Assassin Novels >> >> >> At 10:58 PM 7/22/2002 -0400, Scott Ingram wrote: >>> Cruise the second hand shops and check out the Destroyer novels. >> >> Oh, yes. They're a blast. >> >> I assume no one has mentioned the Fafhrd and Grey Mouser stories of >> Fritz >> Leiber because they're too obvious. >> >> > > I mentioned them in my comfort list, so I guess that I'm a bit obvious. > Or was stating that too obvious ? wait a minute..... > > Alan > > I read those books in high school....very good! Do the Elric books count as assassin novels? he kills a lot of people in them... ------ Chris Turkel,Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Jul 23 09:58:48 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Guilty pleasures? Message-ID: <200207231658.g6NGwhG07857@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > > The Conan movies - now THAT's a guilty pleasure. -sighs- Oh, and how > > about Big Trouble in Little China? Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai? Ack! How could you feel guilty over Big Trouble?!?!? Great movie! And it takes place in my favorite city, too!! :) ~Chris "I feel if a person can't communicate, the very least they can do is to shut up." ~ Tom Lehrer ~ From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Jul 23 10:20:38 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FHYA and Jhereg Message-ID: <200207231720.g6NHKXG12672@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Paarfi never once makes mention in FHYA of the Second Dragon-Jhereg War, > which, according to Aliera in Jhereg, was a major part in Adron's Disaster. > So, did Paarfi simply miss something big, or is Aliera lying (and > considering that she is almost directly responsible for the Disaster, thanks > to not telling her Daddy her plans, she might not like talking about it)? As I recall, Paarfi's books were centered specificaly on Khavreen and his friends and what happened with their lives. It's possible the second D-J war just didn't involve them in any major way, and so he didn't write about it. Uh... could be... :) ~Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Jul 23 10:59:05 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 10:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Assassin Novels Message-ID: <200207231759.g6NHx0G20038@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > I am in desperate need of somethign new to read, anyone know any good > assassin/thief genre Sci/fi books or authors, i am willing to try about > anything. Well, if you're looking for "fun" reads, Harry Harrison's "Stainless Steel Rat" books are pretty good. They may not bend your mind into new and interesting shapes, warping the very fabric of thought into non-euclidean spapes of form, but you may get a laugh and a smile... Chris "I feel if a person can't communicate, the very least they can do is to shut up." ~ Tom Lehrer ~ From mendo666 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 23 11:13:29 2002 From: mendo666 at hotmail.com (Ian Edwards) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:13:29 -0400 Subject: FHYA and Jhereg Message-ID: Except that Aliera states that Adron was rushed and understaffed for the spell, and that was why things screwed up, but Paarfi makes no mention of this whatsoever. And considering Aerich, a Lyorn, was present with Adron for a great deal of time beforehand, and on the scene when the spell took effect, he would assuredly have written it all down at some point, and Paarfi makes mention of acquiring information from sources such as that. Ian "Wizard's first rule: people are stupid. People can be made to believe any lie, either because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it's true." _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com Tue Jul 23 11:14:44 2002 From: lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com (Lowki Liesmith) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 14:14:44 -0400 Subject: Assassin Novels Message-ID: I think you should read the Icewind dale series by R. A. Salvatore. Artemis Entreri is the best fantacy Assassin there is.(next to vlad of coarse) reading these books take a while because there are about 15 books. >From: "T J" >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Assassin Novels >Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 21:56:40 -0400 > >I am in desperate need of somethign new to read, anyone know any good >assassin/thief genre Sci/fi books or authors, i am willing to try about >anything. > >TJS > >_________________________________________________________________ >Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Jul 23 12:46:56 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 15:46:56 -0400 Subject: Assassin Novels Message-ID: <03E54BE6.04A15ED8.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Mon, 22 Jul 2002 8:56:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, "T J" writes: > I am in desperate need of somethign new to read, anyone > know any good assassin/thief genre Sci/fi books or > authors, i am willing to try about anything. I'm surprised no one has mentioned Robin Hobb's Farseer trilogy: Assassin's Apprentice, Royal Assassin, Assassin's Quest. Doesn't focus a whole lot on assassinations, but still a good read. The characters in Hughart's _Bridge of Birds_ aren't really thieves, but they do make a ton of money off some big scams. And I'll second the recommendations for _The Long Run_ and Fafhrd and Grey Mouser stories. --KG From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Tue Jul 23 19:43:56 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 21:43:56 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons (was: interview) References: <1D914B0C-9BF4-11D6-A897-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: > I thought the morranti ink pens were bad, the ones that you had to dip > in morganti india ink... > ------ You think that is bad?! What about morganti safety pins! They're a total contradiction! From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Tue Jul 23 19:49:23 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 21:49:23 -0500 Subject: Guilty pleasures? References: <104.18c55e5d.2a6a3e8a@aol.com> <2967.24.136.62.181.1027139553.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> Message-ID: Robert Wood wrote: >> In a message dated 7/19/2002 10:02:55 PM Mountain Daylight Time, >> bertowud at gator.net writes: >> >> >>> Pitch Black. >> >> I don't know as I'd consider this "guilty:" there are some very >> interesting concepts down under the surface sci-fi/action. >> >> The Conan movies - now THAT's a guilty pleasure. -sighs- Oh, and how >> about Big Trouble in Little China? Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai? >> >> Stacy > > Pitch Black is only a guilty pleasure cuz I get teased every time I > tell people I know that I've seen it. Oh well, what are friends for? > > Oh, yeah! I forgot Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai. Definitely guilty > pleasure there. I haven't seen that in a few years. > > Robert Buckaroo is out on Dvd, I should hope I know I have somehow aqquired it. "Laugha while you cana-monkey-boy!" From singram at videotron.ca Tue Jul 23 21:55:36 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:55:36 -0400 Subject: Great Weapons (was: interview) References: <1D914B0C-9BF4-11D6-A897-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <027401c232ce$59ddb8f0$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gametech" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 10:43 PM Subject: Re: Great Weapons (was: interview) > You think that is bad?! What about morganti safety pins! They're a total > contradiction! Speaking of contradictions, don't forget the morganti missionaries... they save your souls and take them at the same time. And morganti linoleum is hell to walk on... it keeps on destroying the soles of your feet... Hey, just because it's morganti doesn't mean it can spell. (Forgive me, I read to much Piers Anthony as a teenager) -Scott From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Wed Jul 24 11:11:46 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:11:46 -0500 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS Message-ID: <3D3EEDE2.3EE57EB3@attbi.com> Hey, all! I just finished re-reading all of the Taltos books. Random things that struck me. Once again, Steve does a *great* job of interweaving things. Everyone in the world, it seems, knows about Devera except her mother. Not only Verra, but Vlad and Sethra--Sethra can even recognize her when she's a dragon! Sethra was supposed to kill Vlad in his previous incarnation as Kieron's brother, but she didn't. Hmmmmm. Sethra has been kind to Vlad all his life. Hmmmmmm. Vlad doesn't know why, but I've developed this notion; related to the interview question about Vlad and Kiera. I wonder how it feels to know that an ages-old vampire loves you and always has??? It's fun thinking about the SF implications implied in Issola. Steve seems to be setting up a classic human-colony-stranded-on-alien-planet story. It must have been an awfully well established colony--not only did they have pigs and hawks, they even brought in orca. If Dragaerans are in sixteen tribes by bloodline and one tribe (Jhereg) of mixed-blood outcasts, where did the 31 tribes before Kieron come from? If a Great Weapon is sentient, and attached to its owner, what happens when its owner dies? Does the Great Weapon remain dormant until it finds a new, compatible owner??? How did Pathfinder come to allow itself to be imprisoned in a false sword and retrieved by the S in G? Did it somehow know its destiny? That's about it . . . more later, I suppose. Now to go back and pick up Paarfi's works in preparation for Paths of the Dead. Mia From scs at di.org Wed Jul 24 13:05:42 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:05:42 -0400 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS Message-ID: <20020724200541.GA28320@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Mia writes: > Sethra was supposed to kill Vlad in his previous incarnation as Kieron's > brother, but she didn't. Hmmmmm. Sethra has been kind to Vlad all his > life. Hmmmmmm. Vlad doesn't know why, but I've developed this notion; > related to the interview question about Vlad and Kiera. I wonder how it > feels to know that an ages-old vampire loves you and always has??? Interesting idea, but I beg to differ on the interpretation. Steve B may disagree with me (the rat!), but IMHO Sethra is the only one who knows who Vlad really is and what his place in the world is. She certianly hasn't told Vlad! On a similar thought, I don't think Vlad was able to get out of the Paths of the Dead because he's an easterner. As has been repeatedly demonstrated, dragaereans and easterners are of the same stock and their souls can transmigrate (is that the right word?) The Paths is where souls (and sometime bodies) go after death. Of those who reach the Paths, only three can return: Gods, those with the blood of the Gods, and those whom the Gods wish to release for a specific purpose can leave the Paths. If the Gods release one of the dead incarnate (like Sethra), they become vampires. But Vlad wasn't dead -- and therefore didn't become a vampire. The Gods have something they want Vlad to do. And Sethra is in on it. All of this is collected from notes from my upcoming `Sethra Lavode' page. -- "I've thought of her every day for the last ten years, Jar Jar. Every handful of Reese's Pieces reminds me of her beautiful, dark eyes." "You'sa soundin' like you be needin' a Pepsi, Ani." Andrew Porter Glendinning, on Slashdot From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Jul 24 13:25:55 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 24 Jul 2002 15:25:55 -0500 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS In-Reply-To: <20020724200541.GA28320@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20020724200541.GA28320@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: Steve Simmons writes: > All of this is collected from notes from my upcoming `Sethra Lavode' > page. Be sure to send us a pointer, so we can link to it (if it isn't a piece of a site we already link to, anyway). Or could I convince you to let us host it as an article on our dragaera.info site? -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Wed Jul 24 14:39:26 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:39:26 -0500 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS References: <20020724200541.GA28320@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <3D3F1E8E.9E412EC3@attbi.com> David said: >If the Gods release one of the dead incarnate (like Sethra), they become vampires. But Vlad wasn't dead -- and therefore didn't become a vampire. The Gods have something they want Vlad to do. And Sethra is in on it. < To the part of this, I agree. There's a *lot* the gods have wanted Vlad to do. In the first place, I think they wanted him to form House Jhereg. They wanted him to have Lady Teldra. They've got big stuff planned for our boy. Sethra in on it? Some, I'm sure. Maybe all. I dunno. I still think she stayed her hand back then because they were lovers. Maybe we'll never know. Maybe she built up the personality of Kiera for a couple of centuries just so she could be at the right place and time to befriend Vlad. (And make sure he had the blood of a goddess just handy to pull Morrolan out of the Paths.) It's been said repeatedly that Easterners do not go into the Paths. I agree with everything you said about Easterners and Dragaerans having the same souls--that's undeniable. They seem to have different processing facilities, however. There *were*, in fact, no Easterners of any description that Vlad and Morrolan encountered in the Paths. Steve has yet much explaining to do. Mia From zizban at adelphia.net Wed Jul 24 14:35:36 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:35:36 -0400 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS In-Reply-To: <3D3F1E8E.9E412EC3@attbi.com> Message-ID: <4AB838C7-9F4D-11D6-939A-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Wednesday, July 24, 2002, at 05:39 PM, Mia McDavid wrote: > It's been said repeatedly that Easterners do not go into the Paths. I > agree with everything you said about Easterners and Dragaerans having > the same souls--that's undeniable. They seem to have different > processing facilities, however. There *were*, in fact, no Easterners of > any description that Vlad and Morrolan encountered in the Paths. Steve > has yet much explaining to do. > > Mia > We probably won't get one. It's quite possible Steve himself doesn't know the answer. I would like to know what the original human colony was like. ------ Chris Turkel,Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From Gaertk at aol.com Wed Jul 24 14:51:18 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:51:18 -0400 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS Message-ID: <236BEC3D.2735CDE3.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Wed, 24 Jul 2002 1:11:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, Mia McDavid writes: Spoilers for all nine Vlad books. > Sethra was supposed to kill Vlad in his previous > incarnation as Kieron's brother, but she didn't. ?Hmmmmm. >?Sethra has been kind to Vlad all his life. ? Hmmmmmm. ? And partly from guilt. Hmmmm indeed. As for Sethra killing him, I believe the exact phrase was "hamstring the yendi" which is pretty rude, since IIRC she was addressing Vlad at the time. > It's fun thinking about the SF implications implied in > Issola. ?Steve seems to be setting up a classic > human-colony-stranded-on-alien-planet story. ?It must have > been an awfully well established colony--not only did they > have pigs and hawks, they even brought in orca. I would assume that if Brust meant pigs, he'd say pigs, not kethna. > If Dragaerans are in sixteen tribes by bloodline and one > tribe (Jhereg) of mixed-blood outcasts, where did the 31 > tribes before Kieron come from? The Jenoine mixed human genes with those of 31 speicies of animals. Fifteen of the results died out before Kieron's time. >?How did Pathfinder come to allow itself to be imprisoned > in a false sword and retrieved by the S in G? Minor correction: it was picked up by S the Y, not S in G. Speaking of Great Weapons, we've seen a proto-GW kill someone whose soul became a central (maybe neccessary) part of the result. And we saw the disguised Pathfinder kill someone right before Aliera got it (for Dragaeran values of "right before"). Hmmmmm. Wanna bet we see Blackwand kill someone right before Morrolan gets it? --KG From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Wed Jul 24 16:32:56 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 18:32:56 -0500 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS References: <236BEC3D.2735CDE3.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D3F3928.CE5A859E@attbi.com> KG said: > I would assume that if Brust meant pigs, he'd say pigs, not kethna. < Kethna fill the same culinary niche as pork, and they also stink--but they live in nests. Vlad refers to wild boar in Issola. That's a pig. >Speaking of Great Weapons, we've seen a proto-GW kill someone whose soul became a central (maybe neccessary) part of the result. And we saw the disguised Pathfinder kill someone right before Aliera got it (for Dragaeran values of "right before"). Hmmmmm. Wanna bet we see Blackwand kill someone right before Morrolan gets it? < My understanding was that Pathfinder was a Great Weapon before it was hidden. If all Great Weapons are created by the incorporation (as opposed to destruction) of a human soul, does this depend on *whose* soul? Or, is Lady Teldra a special case because it was created in Vlad's presence? Vlad wound the soul-stuff of Lady Teldra around his wrist, and knew he was wrapping her soul around his. Does this mean that, on some eternal plane, he has always been bound up with Lady Teldra? Who had Blackwand before Morrolan, and was it a Great Weapon already? Mia From ambyrglow at SoftHome.net Wed Jul 24 16:35:16 2002 From: ambyrglow at SoftHome.net (Claire Rojstaczer) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 19:35:16 -0400 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS Message-ID: >Vlad wound the soul-stuff of Lady Teldra around his wrist, and knew he >was wrapping her soul around his. Does this mean that, on some eternal >plane, he has always been bound up with Lady Teldra? Who had Blackwand >before Morrolan, and was it a Great Weapon already? > >Mia My question about Great Weapons is, if they're getting created all the time, or even occasionally, ala Vlad and Godslayer, how can anyone say that there are seventeen of them? Claire From singram at videotron.ca Wed Jul 24 16:43:04 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 19:43:04 -0400 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS References: Message-ID: <02f501c2336b$dae20d00$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Claire Rojstaczer" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 7:35 PM Subject: Re: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS > >Vlad wound the soul-stuff of Lady Teldra around his wrist, and knew he > >was wrapping her soul around his. Does this mean that, on some eternal > >plane, he has always been bound up with Lady Teldra? Who had Blackwand > >before Morrolan, and was it a Great Weapon already? > > > >Mia > > > My question about Great Weapons is, if they're getting created all > the time, or even occasionally, ala Vlad and Godslayer, how can > anyone say that there are seventeen of them? > > Claire I expect that if an 18th was created the universe would end or some such. Hey, if there are 17 Great Weapons, does that mean there were 16 before Godslayer was created? If there were 17, what happened to the one it supplanted? -Scott From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Jul 24 16:45:47 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:45:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS Message-ID: <200207242345.g6ONjgG13411@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Claire wrote: > My question about Great Weapons is, if they're getting created all > the time, or even occasionally, ala Vlad and Godslayer, how can > anyone say that there are seventeen of them? I would doubt they are getting "created" all the time, per se. I would suppose, instead, that they are more likely to have "dormant" times, such as the time spent as Spellbreaker. Or that 17 of them were crafted, and they stayed in certain "stages" or "forms" until they were picked up by the "correct" person. And I get the feeling that Mr. Brust just *loves* all this conjecture and supposition. I'm more interested in how often he says to himself, while reading this list, "Hey! I didn't think of that one!" ~Chris "So farewell hope, and with hope, farewell fear, Farewell remorse! All good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my Good" - John Milton - 'Paradise Lost' From cmt17 at cable-lynx.net Wed Jul 24 16:47:22 2002 From: cmt17 at cable-lynx.net (Craig) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:47:22 -0600 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020724173704.00cc2be0@pop.cable-lynx.net> At 07:35 PM 7/24/2002 -0400, you wrote: >>Vlad wound the soul-stuff of Lady Teldra around his wrist, and knew he >>was wrapping her soul around his. Does this mean that, on some eternal >>plane, he has always been bound up with Lady Teldra? Who had Blackwand >>before Morrolan, and was it a Great Weapon already? >> >>Mia I think that it just so happened that she was there, any soul will do without having to have any great destiny involved. Mind you, since we're unlikely to find out, it's open game to speculate however you want. >My question about Great Weapons is, if they're getting created all the >time, or even occasionally, ala Vlad and Godslayer, how can anyone say >that there are seventeen of them? > >Claire I didn't get the impression that great weapons are getting created all the time, it's just that they get hidden, misplaced, etc. I think that Godslayer was so powerful that the gods, or someone, tried to destroy it and so it became a couple of component parts (I'm thinking just the chain was the important bit and any powerful morganti weapon would have done to make up the rest, not that the dagger that the Jenoine gave Vlad was actually a component of the original Godslayer) that could form back into Godslayer at some point in the future, under the right circumstances. Craig From Starshadw at aol.com Wed Jul 24 16:47:54 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 19:47:54 EDT Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS Message-ID: <11c.1492321a.2a7096aa@aol.com> In a message dated 7/24/2002 5:35:32 PM Mountain Daylight Time, ambyrglow at SoftHome.net writes: > My question about Great Weapons is, if they're getting created all > the time, or even occasionally, ala Vlad and Godslayer, how can > anyone say that there are seventeen of them? > We already know time flows differently in certain situations - like around gods. Hence the little minx Devera wandering around when technically, she hasn't been born yet. And when Morrolan and Vlad visited the Serioli, the Serioli knew what Spellbreaker was, and what it was destoned to become. I figure the Serioli created the Seventeen, but some of them are still in an unfinished state, waiting for just the right moment to "blossom" as it were to their full potential - like Godslayer. Stacy From Starshadw at aol.com Wed Jul 24 16:48:55 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 19:48:55 EDT Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS Message-ID: In a message dated 7/24/2002 3:49:54 PM Mountain Daylight Time, Gaertk at aol.com writes: > Hmmmmm. Wanna bet we see > Blackwand kill someone right before Morrolan gets it? > DON'T say that. The first time he died, I nearly had a heart attack. Stacy From kpadgett1 at cox.net Wed Jul 24 16:55:27 2002 From: kpadgett1 at cox.net (Ken Padgett) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 18:55:27 -0500 Subject: Speculation on the Orb -- SPOILERS Message-ID: <003901c2336d$988fadc0$1f106644@kscable.com> I was re-reading FHYA and the way in which Mario defeated the Orb and the subsequent increase in the power of sorcery after the Interregnum got me thinking. Perhaps, like the Great Weapons, the Orb is sentient and learned from this attempt. Sethra had to use the then very experimental extreme of teleporting herself and others to escape. Perhaps the Orb realized that had things like teleportation and/or revivification been more easily done the emperor could have been saved or at least possibly brought back. Another thought: Sethra seemed to know a great deal about how the Orb functioned. Perhaps she was more directly responsible for the Orb's increased power. Ken From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Jul 24 16:56:01 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS Message-ID: <200207242355.g6ONtuG14960@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > > Hmmmmm. Wanna bet we see > > Blackwand kill someone right before Morrolan gets it? > > DON'T say that. The first time he died, I nearly had a heart attack. Hmmm... That leads to an interesting one... I wonder how many times Morrolan's had to be revivified? (I don't even WANT to know how many time's Sethra's been slain/revivified. Either a large or small number, I'd be scared...;) ~Chris "So farewell hope, and with hope, farewell fear, Farewell remorse! All good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my Good" - John Milton - 'Paradise Lost' From andrew at networkharmoni.com.au Wed Jul 24 17:00:58 2002 From: andrew at networkharmoni.com.au (Andrew Bailey) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 08:00:58 +0800 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS References: <200207242355.g6ONtuG14960@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <3D3F3FBA.30400@networkharmoni.com.au> Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: >>>Hmmmmm. Wanna bet we see >>>Blackwand kill someone right before Morrolan gets it? >> >>DON'T say that. The first time he died, I nearly had a heart attack. > > > Hmmm... That leads to an interesting one... > > I wonder how many times Morrolan's had to be > revivified? Well at least once for every time he has called Aliera Short Stuff :) Andrew. From Gaertk at aol.com Wed Jul 24 17:08:07 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 20:08:07 -0400 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS Message-ID: <58B062DB.250CB660.00048EA6@aol.com> Serious SPOILERS now for Issola and others. In a message dated Wed, 24 Jul 2002 6:32:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, Mia McDavid writes: > KG said: > >> I would assume that if Brust meant pigs, he'd say pigs, >> not kethna. >Vlad refers to wild boar in Issola. ?That's a pig. Ah, I missed that. I could defend myself by saying I was using "pig" to refer to the pinkish things found on modern farms, not the blackish, horned things that were a big part of "hunting accidents". ObComics: wild boar are the primary food for the characters in the Asterix series by Goscinny and Uderzo. >> Speaking of Great Weapons, we've seen a proto-GW kill >> someone whose soul became a central (maybe neccessary) >> part of the result. ?And we saw the disguised Pathfinder >> kill someone right before Aliera got it (for Dragaeran >> values of "right before"). ?Hmmmmm. ?Wanna bet we see >> Blackwand kill someone right before Morrolan gets it? > My understanding was that Pathfinder was a Great Weapon > before it was hidden. ?If all Great Weapons are created by > the incorporation (as opposed to destruction) of a human > soul, does this depend on *whose* soul? ?Or, is Lady > Teldra a special case because it was created in Vlad's > presence? Good questions; no idea if we'll get answers. > Vlad wound the soul-stuff of Lady Teldra around his wrist, > and knew he was wrapping her soul around his. ?Does this > mean that, on some eternal plane, he has always been bound > up with Lady Teldra? ?Who had Blackwand before Morrolan, > and was it a Great Weapon already? More good questions; we *may* get a few answers in _Lord of Castle Black_. Then again, maybe not. --KG From cmt17 at cable-lynx.net Wed Jul 24 17:10:25 2002 From: cmt17 at cable-lynx.net (Craig) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 18:10:25 -0600 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS In-Reply-To: <200207242352.g6ONqaG14507@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020724180902.00cc2be0@pop.cable-lynx.net> At 04:52 PM 7/24/2002 -0700, you wrote: > > I think that it just so happened that she was there, any soul will do > > without having to have any great destiny involved. Mind you, since we're > > unlikely to find out, it's open game to speculate however you want. > >Ahh... But don't forget: Vlad states that the Great Weapons >will do anything to protect it's wielder, and that one of, >if not the, largest reasons for this is because the GW's love >their wielders. Very good point, I had forgotten about that portion of it. I know it'll be a burden, but I guess it's time to re-read Issola. :) >Now, I'd be curious as to what would happen if Vlad had done >the same thing with someone that hated him... :) Heh. > >~Chris > >"Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you >in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." > -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From Gaertk at aol.com Wed Jul 24 17:14:21 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 20:14:21 -0400 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS Message-ID: <2FBCB47A.67345113.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Wed, 24 Jul 2002 6:48:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, Starshadw at aol.com writes: > In a message dated 7/24/2002 3:49:54 PM Mountain Daylight > Time, Gaertk at aol.com writes: > >> Hmmmmm. ?Wanna bet we see >> Blackwand kill someone right before Morrolan gets it? > > DON'T say that. ?The first time he died, I nearly had a > heart attack. Oops, didn't word that well... I meant before Morrolan gets Blackwand. --KG From scs at di.org Wed Jul 24 18:27:58 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 21:27:58 -0400 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS Message-ID: <20020725012758.GA3065@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Various responses to my statements about Vlad, Sethra, and what Vlads intended purpose is: David Dyer-Bennet asks: > Be sure to send us a pointer, so we can link to it (if it isn't a > piece of a site we already link to, anyway). > > Or could I convince you to let us host it as an article on our > dragaera.info site? I'll send a pointer as soon as it's ready, but wait until you see it until you decide if you want it on the site. I'm going to stretch my HTML skills in putting it together and the underlying structure may be . . . um . . . bizarre. Chris Olson writes: > And I get the feeling that Mr. Brust just *loves* all > this conjecture and supposition. I'm more interested > in how often he says to himself, while reading this > list, "Hey! I didn't think of that one!" IMHO, the members of this list can expect no greater compliment. Actually, in my personal fantasy Steve is so impressed that he sends me a pre-publication manuscript for review. (koff, koff) :-) Claire Rojstaczer writes: > My question about Great Weapons is, if they're getting created all > the time, or even occasionally, ala Vlad and Godslayer, how can > anyone say that there are seventeen of them? Here's my pure conjecture, backed by little or nothing from the text of the various novels: The Serioli invented the Great Weapons to be used against the Gods. These were made some time after the expelling of the Jenoine, but before the founding of the Empire. Some of weapons were very specialized, with particular talents that are useful to this day (Pathfinder). Others were just weapons (Iceflame). The Gods aligned with the Dragaereans to defend themselves against the Great Weapons. After some struggle, the Serioli lost and the weapons were taken from them. The Gods, unable to destroy them (or able to destroy all but 17), put them into the hands of the Dragaereans. Over the years, some have been lost. Some (like Godslayer) were disabled or disassembled for various reasons. Some may be in the Paths of the Dead. The only ones we know of are Iceflame, Godslayers, Blackwand, Pathfinder, and one whose holder we know but not the name of the weapon. That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it. Until, of course, we get a canonical answer. -- "I've thought of her every day for the last ten years, Jar Jar. Every handful of Reese's Pieces reminds me of her beautiful, dark eyes." "You'sa soundin' like you be needin' a Pepsi, Ani." Andrew Porter Glendinning, on Slashdot From scs at di.org Wed Jul 24 18:34:55 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 21:34:55 -0400 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS Message-ID: <20020725013454.GA3254@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Gaertk at aol.com writes: > Hmmmmm. Wanna bet we see > Blackwand kill someone right before Morrolan gets it? Speaking of that reminds me of a question -- We know of four specific Great Weapons, and the name of a holder of a fifth. Of the four: Pathfinder was hidden for an unknown period before being obtained by Aliera after Adrons Disaster; Godslayer was disassembled for an unknown period before being obtained by Aliera after Adrons Disaster; Blackwand never appears in Parfis stories but comes into Morrelans possession some time after Adrons Disaster; Sethra Lavode was banished from Empire politics but once again became (with Iceflame) a significant force some time after Adrons Disaster. Does anybody see a pattern here? Thinking back, I don't recall either way if Paarfi mentioned Iceflame (tho I'm gonna re-read those books soon), so its quite possible that all four of the GWs we know of were not available until after Adrons Disaster. I wonder what *that* means.... -- "I've thought of her every day for the last ten years, Jar Jar. Every handful of Reese's Pieces reminds me of her beautiful, dark eyes." "You'sa soundin' like you be needin' a Pepsi, Ani." Andrew Porter Glendinning, on Slashdot From mneme at io.com Thu Jul 25 05:18:02 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 07:18:02 -0500 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS In-Reply-To: <02f501c2336b$dae20d00$17ecca18@ingram> References: <02f501c2336b$dae20d00$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: <15679.60538.644975.253971@eris.io.com> Scott Ingram writes: >I expect that if an 18th was created the universe would end or some such. Eh -- It's been made mostly clear that 17 isn't -the- number -- it's just the number Drageran society is formed around. "But 17 is the magic number," indeed. There are 17 Great Weapons because the Seroli created 17, one for each of the major gods. I'd -guess-, given her reaction, that Godslayer was created to kill Verra (which would make sense -- she is the most powerful of the gods, and it's the weapon that's designed to kill someone with unimaginable protections and magical attacks). >Hey, if there are 17 Great Weapons, does that mean there were 16 before >Godslayer was created? No, there were 17 -- Godslayer was one of them, but it wasn't finished. Note that Verra recognized her, even though she didn't name her, quite a bit before she was "done". -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Jul 25 07:59:24 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 10:59:24 EDT Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS Message-ID: <169.11168e13.2a716c4c@aol.com> In a message dated 7/25/2002 6:18:37 AM Mountain Daylight Time, mneme at io.com writes: > (which would make sense -- she is the most > powerful of the gods, and it's the weapon that's designed to kill > someone with unimaginable protections and magical attacks). > She is??? Do we have that definitively somewhere? Stacy From mendo666 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 25 08:41:29 2002 From: mendo666 at hotmail.com (Ian Edwards) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 11:41:29 -0400 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS Message-ID: >Godslayer was disassembled for an unknown period before being obtained by Aliera after Adrons Disaster; That should be Vlad, not Aliera. :) >Sethra Lavode was banished from Empire politics but once again became (with Iceflame) a significant force some time after Adrons Disaster. Sethra has Iceflame in FHYA, although I don't believe Paarfi ever calls it anything except "her dagger." We can safely assume that it's Iceflame when she pulls it out right after the Emperor's death, in order to send the Orb to the Paths. Ian "Wizard's first rule: people are stupid. People can be made to believe any lie, either because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it's true." _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Jul 25 09:45:11 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 09:45:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS Message-ID: <200207251645.g6PGj6G23726@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Does anybody see a pattern here? Thinking back, I don't recall either > way if Paarfi mentioned Iceflame (tho I'm gonna re-read those books soon), > so its quite possible that all four of the GWs we know of were not > available until after Adrons Disaster. 500YA does mention Sethra's dagger, and I *think* I recall it mentioning that it was super-hoopty, but I could be mistaken on that last one. But then, maybe Sethra just likes small, pointy-things... ~Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Thu Jul 25 10:05:09 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 10:05:09 -0700 Subject: Speculation on the Orb -- SPOILERS In-Reply-To: <003901c2336d$988fadc0$1f106644@kscable.com> References: <003901c2336d$988fadc0$1f106644@kscable.com> Message-ID: <20020725170509.GA11453@ofb.net> On Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 06:55:27PM -0500, Ken Padgett wrote: > Another thought: Sethra seemed to know a great deal about how the Orb > functioned. Perhaps she was more directly responsible for the Orb's increased > power. In my head, Zerika IV updates the Orb with some of the developments in sorcery since Zerika I created the Orb, e.g. putting in new subroutines for teleportation and revivification. Possibly Sethra helped with the design work. -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Thu Jul 25 10:06:28 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 10:06:28 -0700 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS In-Reply-To: <20020725012758.GA3065@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20020725012758.GA3065@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <20020725170628.GB11453@ofb.net> On Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 09:27:58PM -0400, Steve Simmons wrote: > particular talents that are useful to this day (Pathfinder). Others > were just weapons (Iceflame). It's "Dzur Mountain in hand". I suspect it's more of an independent Orb-level power source for Sethra. -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Thu Jul 25 10:10:06 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 10:10:06 -0700 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS In-Reply-To: <15679.60538.644975.253971@eris.io.com> References: <02f501c2336b$dae20d00$17ecca18@ingram> <15679.60538.644975.253971@eris.io.com> Message-ID: <20020725171006.GC11453@ofb.net> On Thu, Jul 25, 2002 at 07:18:02AM -0500, Joshua Kronengold wrote: > There are 17 Great Weapons because the Seroli created 17, one for each > of the major gods. I'd -guess-, given her reaction, that Godslayer I don't remember any text evidence that there are 17 Great Weapons -- just Vlad's mentioning "the Seventeen", which could be urban legend -- or that there are 17 major gods, or that each weapon was created for a specific god, or that Verra is most powerful. She is considered the personification of magic, and might have a link with the Great Sea, and seems to be the interface god in _Issola_, and can beat up Barlen, but she's also the "Demon" Goddess, possibly controllable, and we've hardly seen any other gods. -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Thu Jul 25 10:12:46 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 10:12:46 -0700 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS In-Reply-To: <236BEC3D.2735CDE3.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <236BEC3D.2735CDE3.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020725171246.GD11453@ofb.net> On Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 05:51:18PM -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated Wed, 24 Jul 2002 1:11:46 PM Eastern > Standard Time, Mia McDavid writes: > > Spoilers for all nine Vlad books. > > > > > > > > > As for Sethra killing him, I believe the exact phrase was > "hamstring the yendi" which is pretty rude, since IIRC she > was addressing Vlad at the time. Yes, she was supposed to hamstring Dolivar, not kill him. Aliera claims she missed deliberately, and that she herself didn't say anything, implicating her in the guilt. "hamstring the yendi" is Aliera's phrase; Sethra wasn't around in that scene. > > It's fun thinking about the SF implications implied in > > Issola. ?Steve seems to be setting up a classic > > human-colony-stranded-on-alien-planet story. ?It must have > > been an awfully well established colony--not only did they Maybe they weren't stranded, at least until the Jenoine came and took over. -xx- Damien X-) the textcop From tmer at eudoramail.com Thu Jul 25 10:20:36 2002 From: tmer at eudoramail.com (Barbara Baj) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:20:36 -0400 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS Message-ID: >500YA does mention Sethra's dagger, and I *think* >I recall it mentioning that it was super-hoopty, >but I could be mistaken on that last one. > >But then, maybe Sethra just likes small, pointy-things... > >~Chris Having *just* re-read 500YA, I will note that Sethra's dagger is indeed mentioned on more than one occassion. Given the way it's referenced, if not by name, I'd be willing to bet my money that it's Iceflame. - Barb Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Jul 25 10:29:38 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:29:38 -0400 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <184A47D0-9FF4-11D6-BBE4-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Remember, even if humans colonized Dragaera, it was a long time ago, like 100,000 years. Think about that: 100,000 years ago on Earth we sitting in caves sharpening spears. ------ Chris Turkel,Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Jul 25 10:41:06 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 10:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS Message-ID: <200207251741.g6PHf1G05573@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Remember, even if humans colonized Dragaera, it was a long time ago, > like 100,000 years. Think about that: 100,000 years ago on Earth we > sitting in caves sharpening spears. If I recall correctly... The Easterners were there before Dragaerans, and they (Dragaerans) have been around for a couple hundred-thousand years. As the humans were there before the Jenoine came along, I'd suspect the humans have been around for even longer. Maybe they weren't as technologicaly-savvy as we on earth (heh.) Or maybe the Jenoine bred some intelligence into them the way they did with the Jhereg!! Hey! Maybe we've found the Missing Link!! ~Chris "So farewell hope, and with hope, farewell fear, Farewell remorse! All good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my Good" - John Milton - 'Paradise Lost' From mneme at io.com Thu Jul 25 10:48:52 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 12:48:52 -0500 Subject: SPOILERS Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS In-Reply-To: <169.11168e13.2a716c4c@aol.com> References: <169.11168e13.2a716c4c@aol.com> Message-ID: <15680.14852.534378.229395@eris.io.com> Starshadw at aol.com writes: >In a message dated 7/25/2002 6:18:37 AM Mountain Daylight Time, mneme at io.com >writes: >> (which would make sense -- she is the most >> powerful of the gods, and it's the weapon that's designed to kill >> someone with unimaginable protections and magical attacks). >She is??? Do we have that definitively somewhere? No, I'm making it up...sorta. She's the first of the gods, and clearly of a different nature than any of the rest (the rest seem to all be upgraded humans or maybe Seroli, while she is...something else). She is the god who represents magic (which seems to be the force that makes gods possible to begin with), and it is explicitly said that she's at the center of the struggle against the gods' main enemy, which means if she isn't their leader, I don't know who is (I guess you could say she's the gods' Warlord, though :). Regardless, even if she isn't -the- most powerful of the gods, she's still the one Lady Teldra was created to destroy -- its recognition of her (and her fear of it), combined with the fact that she -is- the Goddess of magic [and it is the sword that eats magic] makes that clear. Of course, it makes things interesting that the Necromancer, who isn't a god, is better at magic than Verra is...but these things happen. :) -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From mneme at io.com Thu Jul 25 11:03:28 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:03:28 -0500 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS In-Reply-To: <20020725171006.GC11453@ofb.net> References: <02f501c2336b$dae20d00$17ecca18@ingram> <15679.60538.644975.253971@eris.io.com> <20020725171006.GC11453@ofb.net> Message-ID: <15680.15728.140449.966874@eris.io.com> Damien Sullivan writes: >god in _Issola_, and can beat up Barlen, but she's also the "Demon" Goddess, >possibly controllable, and we've hardly seen any other gods. I'm curious about the "Demon" goddess thing myself. It -may- be there's something more to being a demon than we know, and that she's the only uncontrolable demon. :) But then, nothing says that being a demon means you're -not- amangly powerful (nor that being amazingly powerful means that you're the best; the Necromancer is both a demon and better than Verra). -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From tyan at twcny.rr.com Thu Jul 25 11:28:18 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: 25 Jul 2002 14:28:18 -0400 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS In-Reply-To: Steve Simmons's message of "Wed, 24 Jul 2002 21:27:58 -0400" References: <20020725012758.GA3065@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: Steve Simmons writes: > > Claire Rojstaczer writes: > > > My question about Great Weapons is, if they're getting created all > > the time, or even occasionally, ala Vlad and Godslayer, how can > > anyone say that there are seventeen of them? I see no reason to think they're created all the time. Ditto run-of-the-mill Morganti weapons, [which is interesting] / [although it is less certain] given how easily Vlad et al seem to procure them. I don't think it is at all clear whether anyone still knows how to make Morganti weapons. > Here's my pure conjecture, backed by little or nothing from the text > of the various novels: > > The Serioli invented the Great Weapons to be used against the Gods. > These were made some time after the expelling of the Jenoine, but before > the founding of the Empire. -snip- That's my guess, too. > The Gods aligned with the Dragaereans to defend themselves against the > Great Weapons. If "themselves" means just the Gods, then I agree, but if you meant the Gods *and* Dragaerans, then I disagree: It doesn't appear to me that the Serioli directly wielded the GWs against Dragaerans. > After some struggle, the Serioli lost and the weapons > were taken from them. The Gods, unable to destroy them (or able to > destroy all but 17), put them into the hands of the Dragaereans. Maybe they were reluctant to destroy them, recognizing that although a threat to themselves, the GWs are also a considerable threat against the Jenoine. Certainly, they appear to recognize that now. Plus, I guess I should say that "Lords of Judgment" is apparently more appropriate than "Gods". Below are my DbS notes for the first two chapters of _Issola_. Naturally, there are (potentially) spoilers for everything published up through that point. (I'm impressed by how much information was imparted and yet many prior questions remain and many new questions were raised. I included ch1 here just because.) - tky pp11-26. ch1: "Adapting Behavior to Environment" [Teldra finds & sleeps with Vlad] ** p14 ** [Vlad jokes about Teldra getting forward/intimate with him] {and by the end, they *are* intimately involved} ** p17 ** "Sethra {er, Timmer? (_Orca_)} had said something about--`Loiosh?'" ** p18 ** [new finger explanation] "sorceror tried to eviscerate me" pp27-42. ch2: "Being a Good Listener" [Sethra gives a history lesson] {however, I found it hard to follow: she appears to relate events by grouping them into related motivations, violating causal/chronological order to do so} ** p30 ** [Sethra] "vampire # superfluous" ** p34 ** {new event? new account of event we've already seen?} "Morrolan in his Great Hall defending me [Vlad] from the Sorceress in Green" {I tend to think "defense" is physical or magical, rather than verbal} ** pp34-35 ** [Sethra about gods; implies they gain strength from belief] "Is their power acquired only because there are those who worship them? Is their power, in fact, imaginary? There are no simple answers" {Remember Bolk in _Brokedown Palace_!} {creatures' power in Frank & Brian Herbert's _Man of Two Worlds_ is in fact the power of i(d)magination.} ** p35 ** [Sethra does not fully understand simultaneous manifestation] "I don't understand entirely how it works; I am neither god nor demon. [(The Necromancer is a demon, but don't try to control her!)] # this one skill implies many others {namely?}. # Some of the younger ones have been taught by some of the older ones; I was once offered godhood. But [w]hence came the oldest of the gods [?]" ** p36 ** [chronology] {*what* about the name "Demon Goddess"?} [The dragon, dzur, jhereg, and Serioli were produced by Nature. Easterners came from who knows where. Jenoine came afterwards, from who knows elsewhere. Jenoine performed genetic experiments on all: Easterners --> Dragaerans. Verra is of yet another species and was a servant of the Jenoine.] {RASFW: "servant" = "demon"?} "her you call the Demon Goddess. That name--but never mind that now." ** {how much did the Jenoine experiment on or modify *themselves*?} ** {inconsistency: _Jhereg_, ch9; p80 in _The Book of Jhereg_} [Aliera] "Not all [Jenoine] were destroyed # They had other interests besides genetics. One of them was the study of Chaos. [... boom!] # Great Sea of Amorphia, a few new gods, # no more Jenoine." [Aliera offended by idea: Dragaeran = Easterner original genetic stock] ** {inconsistency: _Phoenix_, pp107-108 of Lesson 8 (pp103-118)} [Morrolan] "Some [gods] are actually Jenoine {really?} who survived the Creation of the Great Sea of Chaos. Others are servants {ok} of theirs who managed to adapt when it occurred and use its energy, either while it was happening or in the millennia that followed." [Aliera] "Some # are simply wizards who have become immortal {?}, and acquired the power to exist on more than one plane at the same time." ** [back to _Issola_] p37 ** [big bang, fate of original Jenoine on Dragaera] "# it is clear that it was Verra, and a few others, # who unleashed upon the world that which we call sorcery, who themselves became the first of those we know as gods, and who destroyed all of the Jenoine who then lived on this world." {"sorcery" -- literally, no magic at all before, e.g. no witchcraft?} {wording intentionally ambiguous? how do we reconcile this account with the _Jhereg_ & _Phoenix_ quotes above? + "The first of those we know": Perhaps there were gods we don't know about, e.g. prior to the existence of sorcery? + There are no Jenoine gods? Or, some Jenoine who were not on Dragaera were nonetheless affected and became gods?} {ambiguous words in movies and TV tangents: + "Memento": for a while I wished the line "Sammi Jankis was a con man" had been delivered ambiguously to make "Sammi Jankis was a con, man" a feasible interpretation. + "The Conversation": piecing phrases together is key. + On "Babylon 5", I wondered if an instance of the word "born" was actually "borne", but JMS explicitly shot my theory down.} ** pp37-38 ** [Sethra relays a confusing chronology of 4 events] {1} "I cannot, in my own mind, imagine the cataclysm of the moment when [the Great Sea] came into being, that instant when for the first time the Unknowable took form." "What happens when the Unknowable takes form? One answers is, it ceases to be unknowable. As soon as there was a Sea of Amorphia, there had, sooner or later, {2} to be a Goddess [Verra] to codify and define the Elder Sorcery that could manipulate it; {3} and a Serioli named Cly!ng Fr'ngtha that made the Elder Sorcery tangible # in objects blurring the distinction between animate and inanimate; {4} and a [Dragaeran Zerika] to craft an Orb that would make this power subject to any mind # it is a power such as exists [apparently] nowhere else # in any universe, for there is more than one, as the Necromancer has demonstrated." {Consider also a 5th event, {5} creation of the Dragaeran Empire. In what order and over what time scale did these 5 events occur? I would guess it took Verra at least a few millennia to do {2}, roughly at the same time "new" gods were still coming into existence (see _Phoenix_ quote above). Then, the Serioli got increasing resentful and did {3}, including Great Weapons. Some time(s?) later (?), {5} and {4} happen in some order.} ** p39 ** [Sethra explains the Serioli's resentment] "they resent us both {Easterners and Dragaerans, I presume} # But above all, they resent the gods [... , ...] who # inspired Kieron the Conqueror # and # led Zerika to create the Orb" ** p40 ** [Sethra explains part of the Serioli counter-attack] "[they] crafted those half-living, half-inanimate artifacts called the Great Weapons, each of which is, in one way or another, obviously or not, directed against the gods." ** {inconsistency: _Dragon_, p36 in ch2 (pp29-41)} [Kragar] "# they say [... b]ack before the beginning of the Empire they [Morganti] were invented by a Serioli smith to make war so horrible no one would fight anymore. # it worked. # Among the Serioli." {RASFW discussed: "among" means what -- Serioli vs Serioli, Serioli vs others, others vs Serioli?} {What of Sethra's remarks on p37 about {event {3}}?} ** [backtracking] pp38-39 ** [Sethra explains what the gods do with souls] "[they] protect us from the Jenoine [.] The place we call the Paths of the Dead sits # both in and out of our world # [They] sift souls as a Serioli sifts for gold in a mountain stream. # [Some] have skills that might someday be useful, and those are held # or reincarnated # A few study for the Godhood themselves, and a tiny number are sent out once more, as Undead. [including Sethra]" {Are "study for Godhood" and "Undead" supposed to be roughly exclusive? Sethra was offered Godhood, but is not a god or demon. So, did she + Not study Godhood? + Study Godhood, but stop partway through, choosing instead to be Undead? + Something else?} ** p32, p35, p40 ** [Sethra describes how fearsome the Jenoine are] "I fear what we are facing is rather more powerful than a god." "Jenoine, for all their talents and skills, cannot be in 2 places at once." "almost perfect natural immunity to the disruptive effects of amorphia." "[can] resist even powerful Morganti weapons" "[But] Great Weapons are the only reliable way to kill Jenoine" ** p35 ** {what does the expression "to beg the question" mean? I seem to recall being told that it is often misused.} ** {I've decided I don't agree that irony or "irony" are overused in _Issola_; they appear a lot in the other books, too, where Vlad calls irony an old friend, and on p40, Sethra agrees Vlad was "always good with irony # even in the days before the Empire I remember that about you". ** p41 ** [Sethra explains the grand scheme of things] "We who carry the Great Weapons are the appointed of the gods # we must look out for each other # The gods hate our weapons and need us who wield them; the Jenoine fear our weapons and hate the gods. # I # am here, watching the Great Weapons, observing the Jenoine, listening to the gods, and trying to see that nothing upsets the balance. # I think we were all, even then, [while creating the Empire in past lives,] marked out by the gods." ** [Zungaroon has a Great Weapon] "only by accident and [has] not the least clue what it is for, or what to do with it". ** {Morrolan is conspicuously absent as one of those listed as being important around the time the Empire was created. Is he the reincarnation of someone important from back then?} ** p42 ** [Sethra of Trout, presumably a god] "knows the motives of the gods" ** {p67 of _Athyra_, ch5 (pp60-76): "Trout" and "Naro, the Lady Who Sleeps" } From tyan at twcny.rr.com Thu Jul 25 11:33:34 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: 25 Jul 2002 14:33:34 -0400 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS In-Reply-To: Steve Simmons's message of "Wed, 24 Jul 2002 21:34:55 -0400" References: <20020725013454.GA3254@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: Steve Simmons writes: -snip- > Sethra Lavode was banished from Empire politics but once again became > (with Iceflame) a significant force some time after Adrons Disaster. Nitpick: she was banished from the court and from leading the Lavodes. I am quite sure she remained a significant force (political, military, etc.) anyway. > Does anybody see a pattern here? Thinking back, I don't recall either > way if Paarfi mentioned Iceflame (tho I'm gonna re-read those books soon), > so its quite possible that all four of the GWs we know of were not > available until after Adrons Disaster. -snip- I very much doubt that. I'm inclined to believe Sethra was likely the first and only wielder of Iceflame, other than the Serioli. Hm. Yeah, yeah, the GWs are aimed at the LoJs, but does that necessarily mean all the LoJs never personally wielded any GWs? - tky From cmt17 at cable-lynx.net Thu Jul 25 11:34:54 2002 From: cmt17 at cable-lynx.net (Craig) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 12:34:54 -0600 Subject: Aliera's siblings? Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020724210435.00cc63c0@pop.cable-lynx.net> I was wondering, since Verra has been around so long and I'm guessing has had enough devoted followers to have taken at least a few lovers, does Aliera have any siblings running about that we may or may not meet...besides Vlad and Kieron that is? In re-reading Issola, Verra refers to Morrolan as lover so I'm guessing that there's the possibility for an interesting twist in the family tree there if something ever does come of it. Craig From rick at 404.978.org Thu Jul 25 11:49:27 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 14:49:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SPOILERS Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS In-Reply-To: <15680.14852.534378.229395@eris.io.com> References: <169.11168e13.2a716c4c@aol.com> <15680.14852.534378.229395@eris.io.com> Message-ID: <2933.192.168.1.1.1027622967.squirrel@404.978.org> > She's the first of the gods, and clearly of a different nature than any > of the rest (the rest seem to all be upgraded humans or maybe > Seroli, while she is...something else). Where do you see that she's the first of the gods? > She is the god who represents magic (which seems to be the force that > makes gods possible to begin with), and it is explicitly said that she's > at the center of the struggle against the gods' main enemy, > which means if she isn't their leader, I don't know who is (I guess you > could say she's the gods' Warlord, though :). Where do you see it explicitly said that she's at the center of the struggle against the Jenoine? > Regardless, even if she isn't -the- most powerful of the gods, she's > still the one Lady Teldra was created to destroy -- its recognition of > her (and her fear of it), combined with the fact that she -is- the > Goddess of magic [and it is the sword that eats magic] makes that > clear. I see nothing to make me believe that there is a one-to-one correlation between Great Weapons and gods. It seems more likely to me, both from the context in the books as well as the name the Serioli gave it that Godslayer/Lady Teldra was designed to kill gods in general, not Verra in particular. I'd like to see more supporting evidence for your one-to-one claim, if there is any. If it's just a pet theory, that's cool too. Theories are fun... just don't claim that something "makes that clear" if it's just a theory. :) > Of course, it makes things interesting that the Necromancer, who isn't a > god, is better at magic than Verra is...but these things happen. :) Having just read this bit a couple days ago, I find I still need to go back and clarify- is the Necromancer better at ALL magic than Verra, or just the particular barrier spells for keeping the Jenoine out and/or in? It seemed to me to be the latter, rather than ALL magic. I definitely need to reread that bit again. -Rick http://rick.978.org/ From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Jul 25 12:34:12 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 14:34:12 -0500 Subject: SPOILERS Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS In-Reply-To: <2933.192.168.1.1.1027622967.squirrel@404.978.org> References: <169.11168e13.2a716c4c@aol.com> <15680.14852.534378.229395@eris.io.com> <2933.192.168.1.1.1027622967.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: <20020725193411.GA25486@infodancer.org> On Thu, Jul 25, 2002 at 02:49:27PM -0400, Rick Castello wrote: > I see nothing to make me believe that there is a one-to-one > correlation between Great Weapons and gods. It seems more > likely to me, both from the context in the books as well as > the name the Serioli gave it that Godslayer/Lady Teldra was > designed to kill gods in general, not Verra in particular. I find the implication that you kill Gods by being polite to them immensely amusing. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From mneme at io.com Thu Jul 25 12:43:14 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 14:43:14 -0500 Subject: SPOILERS VERRA--SPOILERS In-Reply-To: <2933.192.168.1.1.1027622967.squirrel@404.978.org> References: <169.11168e13.2a716c4c@aol.com> <15680.14852.534378.229395@eris.io.com> <2933.192.168.1.1.1027622967.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: <15680.21714.143150.710220@eris.io.com> Rick Castello writes: > Where do you see that she's the first of the gods? > Where do you see it explicitly said that she's at the center of > the struggle against the Jenoine? Both of these are explicitly stated at some point in Issola, IIRC. Specfically, it talks about how the gods were created, and that Verra's existence predates the gods, and about her being the Jenoine's greatest enemy. > I see nothing to make me believe that there is a one-to-one > correlation between Great Weapons and gods. It seems more > likely to me, both from the context in the books as well as > the name the Serioli gave it that Godslayer/Lady Teldra was > designed to kill gods in general, not Verra in particular. All the Great Weapons were created to kill gods in general. But it seems more...appropriate that each was created for a specific god (well, specific Lord of Judgement), and Verra has shown much more trepidation toward Godslayer (before and after Lady Teldra merged with it) than she has toward the other Great Weapons we've seen. Plus it explains why the Jenoine sent him off to kill Verra -- because it's a long shot, sure...but he could, and she wouldn't expect that he could. > I'd like to see more supporting evidence for your one-to-one > claim, if there is any. If it's just a pet theory, that's > cool too. Theories are fun... just don't claim that something > "makes that clear" if it's just a theory. :) Some things are clear; some aren't -- I got the impression of 1-1ness a while into the books...and the fact that there are 17 Great Weapons and 17 Lords of Judgement (IIRC) does make a strong case... > Having just read this bit a couple days ago, I find I still > need to go back and clarify- is the Necromancer better at ALL > magic than Verra, or just the particular barrier spells for > keeping the Jenoine out and/or in? It seemed to me to be the > latter, rather than ALL magic. I definitely need to reread > that bit again. The quote is "Because she's better than I am." or a minor tweak of same. No "better at this" involved. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From den at monger.net Thu Jul 25 13:03:01 2002 From: den at monger.net (Dennis Higbee) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:03:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPOILERS VERRA--SPOILERS In-Reply-To: <15680.21714.143150.710220@eris.io.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Jul 2002, Joshua Kronengold wrote: > Rick Castello writes: > > Where do you see that she's the first of the gods? > > Where do you see it explicitly said that she's at the center of > > the struggle against the Jenoine? > > Both of these are explicitly stated at some point in Issola, IIRC. > Specfically, it talks about how the gods were created, and that > Verra's existence predates the gods, and about her being the Jenoine's > greatest enemy. I think the most that can be inferred from _Issola_ is that Verra was *among* the original gods, not specifically first, but in that first group that encompassed, and achieved apotheosis through, the creation of the Great Sea of Chaos. > > I see nothing to make me believe that there is a one-to-one > > correlation between Great Weapons and gods. It seems more > > likely to me, both from the context in the books as well as > > the name the Serioli gave it that Godslayer/Lady Teldra was > > designed to kill gods in general, not Verra in particular. > > All the Great Weapons were created to kill gods in general. But it > seems more...appropriate that each was created for a specific god > (well, specific Lord of Judgement), and Verra has shown much more > trepidation toward Godslayer (before and after Lady Teldra merged with > it) than she has toward the other Great Weapons we've seen. The Great Weapons were created to be used against the gods. This doesn't mean they were intended to kill them per se. After all, why name a Great Weapon Godslayer if all the others are essentially godslayers as well? > Plus it explains why the Jenoine sent him off to kill Verra -- because > it's a long shot, sure...but he could, and she wouldn't expect that he > could. I can think of a number of reasons why the Jenoine did what they did. The immediate one is, of course, that they wanted Godslayer to come into existence and everything else is creating a win-win situation: "Either we get Godslayer in the world OR we get a link to the Lesser Sea. We can't lose." > > I'd like to see more supporting evidence for your one-to-one > > claim, if there is any. If it's just a pet theory, that's > > cool too. Theories are fun... just don't claim that something > > "makes that clear" if it's just a theory. :) > > Some things are clear; some aren't -- I got the impression of 1-1ness > a while into the books...and the fact that there are 17 Great Weapons > and 17 Lords of Judgement (IIRC) does make a strong case... > > > Having just read this bit a couple days ago, I find I still > > need to go back and clarify- is the Necromancer better at ALL > > magic than Verra, or just the particular barrier spells for > > keeping the Jenoine out and/or in? It seemed to me to be the > > latter, rather than ALL magic. I definitely need to reread > > that bit again. > > The quote is "Because she's better than I am." or a minor tweak of > same. No "better at this" involved. Enh. That's *really* vague. Some people would say "better than this" and others would just say "better." Expecting Verra to be that precise in what is essentially an offhand comment seems a little unreasonable. -Dennis From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Jul 25 13:26:26 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:26:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPOILERS Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS Message-ID: <200207252026.g6PKQMG04239@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > I find the implication that you kill Gods by being polite to them > immensely amusing. "Pardon me, but would you mind doing me a favor? Yes, please turn around for a minute. And could you raise your arms just so? That's ALL of your arms, I mean. Yes, thank you. Now if you wouldn't mind closing your eyes for a just a second while I figure out where to stick this thing...." Yeah, I'd have to agree. Vlad's always been a "sweet" assassin. Now he can be a polite one, too!! ~Chris "So farewell hope, and with hope, farewell fear, Farewell remorse! All good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my Good" - John Milton - 'Paradise Lost' From Gaertk at aol.com Thu Jul 25 13:27:38 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:27:38 -0400 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS Message-ID: <15950547.706C7325.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Wed, 24 Jul 2002 8:27:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, Steve Simmons writes: > Claire Rojstaczer writes: > >> My question about Great Weapons is, if they're getting >> created all the time, or even occasionally, ala Vlad and >> Godslayer, how can anyone say that there are seventeen of >> them? > > Here's my pure conjecture, backed by little or nothing > from the text of the various novels: [actually, most of this is strongly backed by the text] > The Serioli invented the Great Weapons to be used against > the Gods. These were made some time after the expelling > of the Jenoine, but before the founding of the Empire. >?Some of weapons were very specialized, with particular > talents that are useful to this day (Pathfinder). ?Others > were just weapons (Iceflame). According to Mr. Lung (my name for the Serioli in _Dragon_), the Serioli created several artifacts (possibly including some non-weapons) for finding and replacing the Lord of Judgement with themselves. I can't see calling any of them "just weapons". And Pathfinder's current abilities are not what were intended. > The Gods aligned with the Dragaereans to defend themselves > against the Great Weapons. ?After some struggle, the > Serioli lost and the weapons were taken from them. ?The > Gods, unable to destroy them (or able to destroy all but > 17), put them into the hands of the Dragaereans. According to Vlad "legend says" there are 17. Why seventeen? Because Dragaerans always see things in terms of 17. If you put all 23 Great Weapons in a room at the same time and paraded Dragaerans past them, they'd still claim there's only 17. (And yes, I just made up that number.) --KG From tmer at eudoramail.com Thu Jul 25 13:30:33 2002 From: tmer at eudoramail.com (Barbara Baj) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:30:33 -0400 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS Message-ID: -- On Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:03:28 Joshua Kronengold wrote: >Damien Sullivan writes: >>god in _Issola_, and can beat up Barlen, but she's also the "Demon" Goddess, >>possibly controllable, and we've hardly seen any other gods. > >I'm curious about the "Demon" goddess thing myself. It -may- be >there's something more to being a demon than we know, and that she's >the only uncontrolable demon. :) > >But then, nothing says that being a demon means you're -not- amangly >powerful (nor that being amazingly powerful means that you're the best; >the Necromancer is both a demon and better than Verra). > My take on this is that since the difference between a demon and a god is that a Demon can be summoned... Perhaps Verra was summonable, once? It's been a very very long time since I read Brokedown Palace, but I seem to have a vague memory of her being summoned there? It is mentioned somewhere, that there's one place she can't appear, so maybe she was summoned there, 'killed' and so hence her title? Just my own guesswork, though. - Barb Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Jul 25 13:32:48 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPOILERS VERRA--SPOILERS Message-ID: <200207252032.g6PKWiG05774@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > > Where do you see that she's the first of the gods? If I recall correctly, Issola states that she was one of the ones brought by the Jenoine, and was one of (if not the) first to "betray" her "masters" and fight back. I don't recall any mention of her being the "first" god, however. > ...and Verra has shown much more > trepidation toward Godslayer (before and after Lady Teldra merged with > it) than she has toward the other Great Weapons we've seen. I would assume this is more because of the nature of that weapon, than because it was designed specificaly for her. She wouldn't have as much cause to fear, say, Pathfinder. What would she care if Aliera were to check out where she was? > The quote is "Because she's better than I am." or a minor tweak of > same. No "better at this" involved. Yes, but they are discussing a specific task, so it lends itself to interpretation (as if everything else we've been discussing doesn't...:) ~Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From Gaertk at aol.com Thu Jul 25 13:39:03 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:39:03 -0400 Subject: Random thoughts and musings Message-ID: <55874E1B.42EA60A0.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Thu, 25 Jul 2002 12:12:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, Damien Sullivan writes: > On Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 05:51:18PM -0400, Gaertk at aol.com > wrote: >> In a message dated Wed, 24 Jul 2002 1:11:46 PM Eastern >> Standard Time, Mia McDavid writes: >> >> As for Sethra killing him, I believe the exact phrase was >> "hamstring the yendi" which is pretty rude, since IIRC she >> was addressing Vlad at the time. > > Yes, she was supposed to hamstring Dolivar, not kill him. >?Aliera claims she missed deliberately, and that she > herself didn't say anything, implicating her in the guilt. >?"hamstring the yendi" is Aliera's phrase; Sethra wasn't > around in that scene. It's still rude to call him a yendi when talking to his reincarnation. I can't help wondering if there really was a yendi involved; yes, I know snakes don't have hamstrings, but that could be referring to severing the spinal column. --KG From tyan at twcny.rr.com Thu Jul 25 13:47:22 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: 25 Jul 2002 16:47:22 -0400 Subject: Random thoughts and musings In-Reply-To: Gaertk@aol.com's message of "Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:39:03 -0400" References: <55874E1B.42EA60A0.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: Gaertk at aol.com writes: > Damien Sullivan writes: -snip- > >?"hamstring the yendi" is Aliera's phrase; Sethra wasn't > > around in that scene. > > It's still rude to call him a yendi when talking to his > reincarnation. I can't help wondering if there really was > a yendi involved; yes, I know snakes don't have hamstrings, > but that could be referring to severing the spinal column. Why is it rude? - tky From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Jul 25 13:45:24 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:45:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS Message-ID: <200207252045.g6PKjKG08418@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Perhaps Verra was summonable, once? It's been a very very long time since I read Brokedown Palace, but I seem to have a vague memory of her being summoned there? Having just reread that one: Verra was "summoned" in BP, by both the prince and the Taltos horse (though it seemed to me that the horse did most of the summoning.) However, I'm not quite sure if this form of "summoning" would be the same as that which is used to summon demons. In fact, I would doubt it, really. I think Verra's been a goddess for awhile longer than she's been banished from Fenario... > It is mentioned somewhere, that there's one place she can't appear, so maybe she was summoned there, 'killed' and so hence her title? She was "summoned" and "killed" in BP, and that's where she can no longer appear, but I believe they reffered to her as the Demon Goddes in BP as well (though I can't recall, exactly...) ~Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From tmer at eudoramail.com Thu Jul 25 14:16:30 2002 From: tmer at eudoramail.com (Barbara Baj) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 17:16:30 -0400 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS Message-ID: >On a similar thought, I don't think Vlad was able to get out of the Paths >of the Dead because he's an easterner. As has been repeatedly >demonstrated, dragaereans and easterners are of the same stock and their >souls can transmigrate (is that the right word?) The Paths is where souls >(and sometime bodies) go after death. Of those who reach the Paths, only >three can return: Gods, those with the blood of the Gods, and those whom >the Gods wish to release for a specific purpose can leave the Paths. If >the Gods release one of the dead incarnate (like Sethra), they become >vampires. But Vlad wasn't dead -- and therefore didn't become a vampire. > >The Gods have something they want Vlad to do. And Sethra is in on it. > >All of this is collected from notes from my upcoming `Sethra Lavode' >page. >-- It could be, though that Verra was telling the truth about blood, especially given that the blood given to Morrolan *did* help him get out. Verra noted that he'd feel life seeping away until he emerged undead, if he could manage it. Maybe because the Paths were *specifically* designed for Dragaerans, to hold those the gods found useful (if I remember what was said correctly, my copy of Issola is out on loan.) it was easier for Vlad to leave alive because the differences that exist now between the two races is enough to let him leave. Then again, Zerika also left because the gods allowed it, so maybe they're not telling the entire truth. :) - Barb Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From mattonim at engineering.ucsb.edu Thu Jul 25 15:10:05 2002 From: mattonim at engineering.ucsb.edu (Michael Mattoni) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:10:05 -0700 Subject: SPOILERS VERRA--SPOILERS In-Reply-To: <15680.21714.143150.710220@eris.io.com> References: <2933.192.168.1.1.1027622967.squirrel@404.978.org> <169.11168e13.2a716c4c@aol.com> <15680.14852.534378.229395@eris.io.com> <2933.192.168.1.1.1027622967.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020725145847.00bc1788@imap.engr.ucsb.edu> > > Having just read this bit a couple days ago, I find I still > > need to go back and clarify- is the Necromancer better at ALL > > magic than Verra, or just the particular barrier spells for > > keeping the Jenoine out and/or in? It seemed to me to be the > > latter, rather than ALL magic. I definitely need to reread > > that bit again. > >The quote is "Because she's better than I am." or a minor tweak of >same. No "better at this" involved. Perhaps this is best thought of in the context of a law firm. There are partners (gods) and there are associates who might be elevated to partner (like Sethra) based on ability/senority/whatever. Just because you aren't a partner/god doesn't mean that you aren't just as powerful. We're a bit biased in believing that becoming a god suddenly makes you more than you were before. Sethra was probably content to pull the strings from Dzur Mountain and didn't want to put up with all the b.s. that comes along with being a god. Power is power. Again, we are assuming that a demon like the Necromancer wouldn't necessarily be as powerful as a god like Verra. While it is stated that a god can be in two places at once while a demon can't, there may be things demons can do which gods cannot. That doesn't necessarily imply a limit to the potential of either demon or god compared to each other. From mneme at io.com Thu Jul 25 15:17:10 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 17:17:10 -0500 Subject: SPOILERS VERRA--SPOILERS In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020725145847.00bc1788@imap.engr.ucsb.edu> References: <2933.192.168.1.1.1027622967.squirrel@404.978.org> <169.11168e13.2a716c4c@aol.com> <15680.14852.534378.229395@eris.io.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020725145847.00bc1788@imap.engr.ucsb.edu> Message-ID: <15680.30950.207313.50360@eris.io.com> Michael Mattoni writes: >>The quote is "Because she's better than I am." or a minor tweak of >>same. No "better at this" involved. >Perhaps this is best thought of in the context of a law firm. There are >partners (gods) and there are associates who might be elevated to partner >(like Sethra) based on ability/senority/whatever. I don't see how this is more true for a law firm than for any other company...but yeah. Being a god may very well confer certain powers (like bilocation) and immunities (being controled)...but it doesn't make you better at -everything- than -everyone- else. >Sethra was probably content to pull the strings from Dzur Mountain >and didn't want to put up with all the b.s. that comes along with >being a god. And possibly there are penalties (free will?) to being a god that you don't get if you're not one. >Power is power. Again, we are assuming that a demon like the Necromancer >wouldn't necessarily be as powerful as a god like Verra. Well, we would, except that in at least one extent, we've been told otherwise. Which totally floored Vlad, of course. >While it is stated that a god can be in two places at once while a >demon can't, No, both can bilocate; Jenoine can't, but both gods and demons can. >there may be things demons can do which gods cannot. Be controled? In any case, I think it comes down to individuals -- most demons are probably no better at sorcery than one of the Lords of Judgement, and probably far worse (after all, IIRC most demons aren't -interested- in the whole Jenoine/LoJ fight, and probably don't hold truck with the Orb or amorphine either). >That doesn't necessarily imply a limit to the potential of either >demon or god compared to each other. Nope. What's interesting is that while the Necromancer is fairly high-status among the Dragerans, she's of -far- less status than, say, Verra...but she's got so many special things about her that one might think it would be higher. How much -do- we know about her, anyway? -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From randomhonky at hotmail.com Thu Jul 25 16:01:48 2002 From: randomhonky at hotmail.com (T J) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 19:01:48 -0400 Subject: SPOILERS VERRA--SPOILERS Message-ID: Joshua Kronengold writes: >How much -do- we know about her, anyway? ( the necromancer) I have been thinking about that, and i have recently come to my own conclusion that the necromancer is The painting baroness from TPG. In jhereg Vlad tells us the necromancer is a painter and that she painted the picture of the dieing dragon hanging in morrolan's castle, also he explains that Katana E'M'archala painted the ceiling of Castle Black. I am guessing from the extra apostrophe in the last name that it is a shortening of her full last name, like G'aerth. And we all know the baroness painted a picture of a dieing dragon that belonged to Lord Rollandar e'Drien, if memory serves e'Drien is the line fo which Morrolan is a member, so he could have inherited it some way. so i propose that the necromancer is indeed the baroness and perhaps few people (only sethra since she and the baroness were apparently friends in TPG) know who the necromancer truly is. Like it or lump it TJS _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From ambyrglow at softhome.net Thu Jul 25 16:11:33 2002 From: ambyrglow at softhome.net (ambyrglow at softhome.net) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 17:11:33 -0600 Subject: The Gypsy Message-ID: We interrupt your regularly scheduled programming. . . . Erm. I'm about to start reading The Gypsy, but my (used) copy is unfortunately missing pages 295-298 (paperback edition). So here's my plea. . . . Is there anyone else with a copy who would be so kind as to scan in those pages, or type them, or (more likely) mail me a brief summary of events? . Thanks! . Claire From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Jul 25 16:22:00 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:22:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Gypsy Message-ID: <200207252321.g6PNLsG05384@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Erm. I'm about to start reading The Gypsy, but my (used) copy is > unfortunately missing pages 295-298 (paperback edition). So here's my plea. > . . . Is there anyone else with a copy who would be so kind as to scan in > those pages, or type them, or (more likely) mail me a brief summary of > events? Hmm... I seem to recall the same thing in that one (though it could have been another book.) Have you checked to see if it was just a misprint of page #'s?, or if those pages are in another part of the book? I'd have to go back and look at my copy to see what happened with it, as it's been a year or two since I read that one (which is a GREAT book, btw! Major Cat-Kudo's to Brust and Lindholm for that one!!:) Cheers and good luck! Chris (whose entered below one of his favorite lines from Gypsy:) "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, son." - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm From Gaertk at aol.com Thu Jul 25 16:29:35 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 19:29:35 -0400 Subject: Random thoughts and musings Message-ID: <5BD43867.723A6AFC.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Thu, 25 Jul 2002 3:47:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, Thomas Yan writes: > Gaertk at aol.com writes: >> Damien Sullivan writes: > -snip- >>>?"hamstring the yendi" is Aliera's phrase; Sethra wasn't >>> around in that scene. >> >> It's still rude to call him a yendi when talking to his >> reincarnation. ?I can't help wondering if there really was >> a yendi involved; > > Why is it rude? I can't see the term "yendi" being used as a compliment. And note that Aliera is speaking in the first person, not saying "my previous incarnation". --KG From kknolte at ecity.net Thu Jul 25 19:18:14 2002 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 20:18:14 -0600 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS References: Message-ID: <3D40B161.28D0@ecity.net> Barbara Baj wrote: > > It could be, though that Verra was telling the truth about blood, especially given that the blood given to Morrolan *did* help him get out. Verra noted that he'd feel life seeping away until he emerged undead, if he could manage it. Think I once saw a discussion on rasfw, which suggested that Vlad is a real taltos. Taltos who eat can't use any of their taltos powers, but once they stop, they can do all sorts of funky stuff. So, assuming I remembered correctly, perhaps Vlad just spent enough time in the Paths without eating to get the taltos powers working, and taltos are considered the same as undead as far as escaping the Paths? From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Thu Jul 25 18:30:43 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 18:30:43 -0700 Subject: Random thoughts and musings In-Reply-To: <55874E1B.42EA60A0.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <55874E1B.42EA60A0.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020726013043.GA29947@ofb.net> On Thu, Jul 25, 2002 at 04:39:03PM -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > It's still rude to call him a yendi when talking to his > reincarnation. I can't help wondering if there really was Oh no! Aliera being rude to a Jhereg! She seemed kind of dreamy at that point, like she was reliving it. Her previous incarnation probably thought Dolivar _was_ a yendi -- Dragons being Dragons, Aliera probably does too -- so she spoke naturally. Doesn't mean she thinks Vlad is a yendi, anyway, although maybe she does. -xx- Damien X-) From rick at 404.978.org Thu Jul 25 18:31:31 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 21:31:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SPOILERS VERRA--SPOILERS In-Reply-To: <200207252032.g6PKWiG05774@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200207252032.g6PKWiG05774@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <1534.192.168.1.1.1027647091.squirrel@404.978.org> Chris Olson - SunPS said: >> ...and Verra has shown much more >> trepidation toward Godslayer (before and after Lady Teldra merged with >> it) than she has toward the other Great Weapons we've seen. > > I would assume this is more because of the nature of that weapon, > than because it was designed specificaly for her. She wouldn't > have as much cause to fear, say, Pathfinder. What would she > care if Aliera were to check out where she was? Agreed. A more exhaustive test would be to parade other gods past Blackwand, Pathfinder, and Godslayer/Lady Teldra, and see if their reactions differ only for Godslayer, etc. >> The quote is "Because she's better than I am." or a minor tweak of >> same. No "better at this" involved. > > Yes, but they are discussing a specific task, so it lends > itself to interpretation (as if everything else we've been > discussing doesn't...:) Again, exactly my take on the passage. An aside- I just recieved my copy of Athyra today and finished reading it a few minutes ago- (worth every dollar of the $23 I paid for it... I just wish Steven would have got a few of those bucks!) I had to chuckle at Savn's query about G'amon, Lord of Dreams... :) -Rick From rick at 404.978.org Thu Jul 25 18:34:03 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 21:34:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Random thoughts and musings In-Reply-To: <55874E1B.42EA60A0.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <55874E1B.42EA60A0.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <1552.192.168.1.1.1027647243.squirrel@404.978.org> >> Yes, she was supposed to hamstring Dolivar, not kill him. >>?Aliera claims she missed deliberately, and that she >> herself didn't say anything, implicating her in the guilt. >>?"hamstring the yendi" is Aliera's phrase; Sethra wasn't >> around in that scene. > > It's still rude to call him a yendi when talking to his > reincarnation. I can't help wondering if there really was > a yendi involved; yes, I know snakes don't have hamstrings, > but that could be referring to severing the spinal column. Or referring metaphorically to simply "taking one out of commission". To be hamstrung is to be alive, but mostly immobile. -Rick From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Thu Jul 25 18:36:10 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 18:36:10 -0700 Subject: SPOILERS VERRA--SPOILERS In-Reply-To: <15680.21714.143150.710220@eris.io.com> References: <169.11168e13.2a716c4c@aol.com> <15680.14852.534378.229395@eris.io.com> <2933.192.168.1.1.1027622967.squirrel@404.978.org> <15680.21714.143150.710220@eris.io.com> Message-ID: <20020726013610.GB29947@ofb.net> On Thu, Jul 25, 2002 at 02:43:14PM -0500, Joshua Kronengold wrote: > Specfically, it talks about how the gods were created, and that > Verra's existence predates the gods, and about her being the Jenoine's > greatest enemy. You say the other gods are "upgraded humans or maybe Serioli". Aliera actually implies some of the gods might be upgraded Jenoine, but at any rate, Verra is just an upgraded alien, one the Jenoine had brought with them. > All the Great Weapons were created to kill gods in general. But it > seems more...appropriate that each was created for a specific god Not to me. Given their names, and what Mr. Lung said, it seems that they were created with specific functions, perhaps meant to work cooperatively. E.g. Pathfinder finds a god, Iceflame gives you the power to teleport there, Blackwand knocks off the purple robes or other servants getting in the way, and Godslayer takes out the god. > (well, specific Lord of Judgement), and Verra has shown much more > trepidation toward Godslayer (before and after Lady Teldra merged with > it) than she has toward the other Great Weapons we've seen. Verra can probably defend herself fomr the other Great Weapons, since the Jenoine could. Godslayer slices through sorcerous defenses. > a while into the books...and the fact that there are 17 Great Weapons Vlad-claim, not fact. > and 17 Lords of Judgement (IIRC) does make a strong case... I don't recall that one at all. -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Thu Jul 25 18:37:55 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 18:37:55 -0700 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020726013755.GC29947@ofb.net> On Thu, Jul 25, 2002 at 05:16:30PM -0400, Barbara Baj wrote: > Then again, Zerika also left because the gods allowed it, so maybe they're > not telling the entire truth. :) I like to think Zerika being a Phoenix had something to do with it. I thought the centaur-goddess said something like that, but won't swear to it. -xx- Damien X-) From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Jul 25 19:49:50 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 21:49:50 -0500 Subject: Random thoughts and musings In-Reply-To: <55874E1B.42EA60A0.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <55874E1B.42EA60A0.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020726024950.GH32424@infodancer.org> On Thu, Jul 25, 2002 at 04:39:03PM -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > It's still rude to call him a yendi when talking to his > reincarnation. I can't help wondering if there really was > a yendi involved; yes, I know snakes don't have hamstrings, > but that could be referring to severing the spinal column. Aliera is a person who has spent her lifetime killing people with a sword rather than avoid giving offense. I rather think she isn't too concerned about giving offense. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Thu Jul 25 19:39:07 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 21:39:07 -0500 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS References: <200207252045.g6PKjKG08418@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <3D40B64B.A84D1FCD@attbi.com> Chris said: > Verra was "summoned" in BP, by both the prince and the Taltos horse < I just realized . . . on this whole world, easterners and Dragherans are born and die all the time. It was a Taltos horse. Can a "human" soul in the broadest sense be reincarnated as a Taltos horse?????? Mia GD&RVVF From Raellew at aol.com Thu Jul 25 20:10:19 2002 From: Raellew at aol.com (Raellew at aol.com) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 23:10:19 EDT Subject: SPOILERS VERRA--SPOILERS Message-ID: <16d.111d7102.2a72179b@aol.com> In a message dated 7/25/02, T J writes: >I have been thinking about that, and i have recently come to >my own conclusion that the necromancer is The painting >baroness from TPG. In jhereg Vlad tells us the necromancer >is a painter and that she painted the picture of the dieing >dragon hanging in morrolan's castle, also he explains that >Katana E'M'archala painted the ceiling of Castle Black. I am >guessing from the extra apostrophe in the last name that it >is a shortening of her full last name, like G'aerth. The line is e'Marish'Chala. The line's originator was, in full, Marishori Cvorunn Chalionara. (TPG, 125-126) >And we all know the baroness painted a picture of a dieing >dragon that belonged to Lord Rollandar e'Drien, if memory >serves e'Drien is the line fo which Morrolan is a member, so >he could have inherited it some way. I'm trying to wait for the readalong list, so I haven't read FYA recently, but I think Kathana's painting was in the palace at the time of Adron's Disaster, which would make it gone, gone, gone. >so i propose that the necromancer is indeed the baroness and >perhaps few people (only sethra since she and the baroness >were apparently friends in TPG) know who the necromancer >truly is. Did I ever tell anyone about the theory I had after FYA, that Tazendra would become Sethra the Younger? I gave it up after a while, but still wish I'd been able to make it work. Rae From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Fri Jul 26 01:06:22 2002 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 01:06:22 -0700 Subject: Yo. Message-ID: <200207260106.AA870252872@amish2000.com> Hi. I'm a hapless newbie who is fery vond of the Dragaera series, and will probably lurk for a long time (except when I don't feel like it), but I just thought that I'd pipe up and say "hi" before disappearing into quasi-permanent lurkerdom. I once had a theory that Tazendra was the Dzurlord to whom Paresh was a serf, in _Teckla_, but I fear ridicule, so I won't try to convert anyone to it. (Er.) And.... that's it, really. *waves* ~ MJ ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ ~ Wait, Don't Leave Yet! ~ http://lextalionis.virtualave.net/ ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ ~ A Pirate Looks At Twenty ~ http://erythros.livejournal.com/ ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ ____________________________________________________________ ____ Get your own evilemail.com address at http://www.evilemail.com From FelixEisen at aol.com Thu Jul 25 22:30:03 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 01:30:03 EDT Subject: Musings, Sethra, Aliera, Verra, and being impolite with the word 'yendi' Message-ID: <2d.20ba9a79.2a72385b@aol.com> Good lord, some of you people talk a lot. OTOH, that's what I'm here for, so you don't hear me bitching -too- hard... All right. Consider that I don't have my books, so I can't give you specific locations. However, I have a -quite- good memory of things I've read (and enjoyed), so ... topics in no particular order, save that they occur to me in that order, and (maybe) I'm trying to fit them into the timeline. Gobs and gobs of spoilers, so here's your spoiler space. 17 traditional Great Weapons, a whole host of Morganti blades. It is clear (from commentary -- Kragar's?) that the Morganti weapon was the Serioli plan for the elimination of war, and maybe murder, too -- make the idea of killing someone so repugnant ('cause you're destroying their 'immortal soul') that the entire concept of war/murder becomes anathemic to your society. The Great Weapons don't exist, just 'regular' Morganti blades. Considering the timeline: I'd give a 95% chance this happened BEFORE the arrival of humans (Easterners) on Dragaera; if it'd happened before that, then the Serioli would have been willing to accept the existence of the human colonists amongst them. (Besides, humans are clearly widespread, while Dragaerans are, for the most part, centrally located. More on this in a bit.) It is possible, however, that it happened shortly -after- the arrival of the colony, but only if the Serioli are functionally immune to Morganti blades, as follows: war began between colonists and Serioli, and the weapons which the Serioli forged -- for -all- 'sharp artifacts of steel' made by the Serioli are Morganti, because that's the (maybe only?) way they make knives/swords/spears/etc. -- did more than just kill their opponents, it destroyed their comparatively weak spirits. The Serioli, horrified by this 'capability' of their weapons, withdraw and 'surrender', offering peaceful co-existence with the humans. (Humans, hereafter, spread throughout the world, generally mixing their villages with Serioli villages, etc. etc.) There were still, I imagine, a few zones where there are nothing but Serioli villages, and others where there are nothing but human residences. Please note -- for this suggestion of mine, Serioli don't make ordinary kitchen knives; ALL of their implements are (as such) Morganti. It's just the way they make things, the attention to crafting, the 'power' of themselves. The 'desire to cut' that is the ordinary Morganti weapon is, for these purposes, more a simple design philosophy; you want an edge that WANTS to cut, just as much as you would want a wheel that WANTS to turn, or a candle that WANTS to burn. Then the Jenoine show up. Immensely powerful, they form their own enclave, with which to experiment on the 'surrounding critters'. In this case, the primary 'surrounding critter' was the human; clearly sentient, they were a perfect subject for experimentation. The Serioli, having long since reached their 'no more war' policy, maybe send in a few protests, but they're not at the same power level as the Jenoine, so the Jenoine tell 'em to bite it before returning to their experiments. The Serioli shrug, and wander off. Humans aren't -that- high on their important list, and it's not like the Jenoine are destroying their souls, right? Then we have a big kaboom, a Great Sea of Chaos, a few gods, etc. etc. These aforementioned Gods have two primary motives: survival and freedom. For the moment they have freedom, and their enemies are (ahem) in chaos; the Gods turn to individuals they -know- will be their allies -- the 'new humans', i.e. Dragaerans, and the old humans, who undoubtedly dislike the Jenoine because, well, would YOU want aliens coming by to abduct and experiment on your sister? ... if you live in a remote area that has experienced abductions, PLEASE don't answer that one. The Primary assistance comes from the experiments (i.e. Dragaerans) who, having been direct victims, of course team up. During the lull in which the Jenoine who survived/fled the GSoC detonation recover before trying to return, the Gods encourage the 5,000 tribes (okay, okay, 31 or whatever) of Dragaerans to get together -- via Zerika. Zerika most likely was one of (if not -the-) the most powerful Shamans of the Tribes; she, possibly Sethra, maybe a Serioli, and maybe Verra (I don't recall if Verra was there, so someone can correct me if they want...) get together and create the Orb. This has the following effects: 1) The Orb, tapping the GSoC, feeds back into it, rendering it (essentially) immune to the influence of the Jenoine. 2) The Gods, tapping both the 'safe' power of the Orb and the 'dangerous' power of the Great Sea, create the Paths of the Dead between this world and 'the next', so that they can sift through the Dragaeran souls. (Humans aren't quite as useful is my conjecture -- more for the 'mass worship' power source than being actual tools.) 3) The Dragaerans gain a tap on a vast source of power, lowering/eliminating the risk of another such 'accident'; to ensure that it doesn't happen TOO often, Zerika outlaws 'elder sorcery', offering a link to the orb to everyone who agrees with her. This, incidentally, sets up ... 4) Zerika becomes the First Empress, forming the Empire of Dragaera, with noble houses and yadda yadda yadda. Why her? Because she had the tap on power, duh. He who has 'the gold' makes the rules, and Zerika had the gold, as well as a friend -- a brother? -- with a big-assed sword who was quite willing to 'debate with' the Council of Shamans at swordpoint to get 100% conformation to Zerika's idea. (This is what Zerika knew, or expected, or hoped, was going to happen. I suspect Sethra was just hoping that everyone wouldn't kill each other.) Once the Shamans agreed, they could influence the other leaders of the tribes, etc. etc. And EVERYONE could link with the Orb: voila', we have an Empire. Please note: the Dragaerans, during this last step, were under attack by other tribes of humans -- Easterners. Clearly someone 'on the other side' decided that the abominations made by the Jenoine shouldn't continue to exist, or that they were going to pose a major threat, or whatever. Dolivar & Crew (aka the House of the Jhereg) made Our Warlord Kieron (no, I DON'T think he was emperor, though he might've been the first Dragon emperor...) promise to include them in the agreement in exchange for scouting and spying services; Kieron gets to have LOTS of problems with the other tribes in enforcing this. I figure that when he died and went down to the Paths (being honorable), he commanded/cajoled/forced the Gods to create the physical representation of the Cycle, and made sure the Jhereg were on the wheel. Once the Empire got started, though, it -had- to expand. So they did, right out through Serioli and Easterner tribes, conquering and kicking ass, all with the encouragement and support of Our Lords (and Ladies) of Judgement. A few of the Lords, I imagine, circulate through the Easterners, to gain influence on THAT side of the coin, too; it never hurts to make EVERYONE you can your ally. Unfortunately, during that 'expansion phase', plenty of Serioli villages get the torch; the Serioli, not being stupid, can see that it's not the Dragaerans' fault, but that of the LoJ, who are encouraging this expansion in order to widen their own power base. The Easterners are no help, of course, 'cause too many of them are already agog over the LoJ. So where does a good, vengance-seeking Serioli turn in order to find help? The Jenoine. The Jenoine and the Serioli get together, and one genius Serioli smith (named in Issola, I don't remember what it is) figures out how to make one of their weapons not only -want- to cut, but even want to do other things -- i.e., how to bind a sentience previously in a human (or Dragaeran, or Serioli, or Jenoine -- or whatever) form into a very, very well-made (i.e. powerful) weapon of their manufacture, i.e. Morganti. After some experimentation, and probably a few failures, you have a Great Weapon -- say, 'Wand-In-The-Form-Of-A-Sword-For-Creating-Death', aka Blackwand, whose primary purpose is, let's face it, killing as many thousands of opponents it can. ('Infantry battalion disguised as a sword', I think Vlad understates once.) So they create others -- Pathfinder (what was it, 'Artifact for Finding When The Path Is True'?), Godslayer/Lady Teldra ('Artifact for Removal Of Aspects of Diety'), Iceflame, and others. Side note: I find it interesting that we never find out the Serioli name of Iceflame; it would, I expect, be REALLY telling about what power Dzur Mountain represents, how it got there, etc. My personal pet theory is that it was the first (and probably enormous) stockpile by the Jenoine for cracking back against the Lords of Judgement -- but someone slipped up, and Sethra got the one and only key. 'Take that, Bambridge Scholars!!' Likely the first time the Gods were 'informed' of the existence of the Great Weapons is, perhaps, when they were first used. A possible scenario might go like this: in concert, three or four Great Weapons are brought to a place where Verra can be often found, perhaps in the Paths of the Dead. This is the plan: one is used to clear away the riff-raff (Iceflame), one is used to trace the way between starting point and destination (Pathfinder), one is used to take down defenses and -- this is important -- eliminate the capability for the deity to split their essence, i.e. pin them down completely (Godslayer), and one is used to perform the coup de grace, utterly destroying the deity (Blackwand). Godslayer slays the 'god' part, you see; it doesn't kill the being, but rather, as the Serioli put it, 'removes aspects of diety' -- making yon god(dess) mortal once more. This scares the everliving shit out of Verra & Co., who put three of the four weapons into the hands of trusted retainers, err, lackeys, errr ... Dragaerans, and take the critical one -- Godslayer -- and rip it apart. Doesn't destroy it, but there you go. Anyhow. I don't remember if I even covered everything that I wanted to cover, but that's most of it. Oh yes, -- in FHYA, Iceflame is not mentioned by name, but is -definitely- mentioned by implication -- re-read the scene where Aliera and Sethra meet for the first time. 'I know that I have a greatsword to your dagger, but knowing something about that dagger, I believe I do you the honor of not overmatching you,' or something to that effect -- Aliera acknowledging that she with a greatsword against Sethra with Iceflame would, well, be 'at best' an even match. I wonder if Aliera and Sethra ever had that duel. For some reason, I think they did, Aliera with Kieron's Greatsword vs. Sethra and Iceflame. I can also clearly picture Sethra coolly defending herself until Aliera runs down, then politely (so to speak) asking, "Would you like to continue when you have regained your strength?" That or else letting Aliera slash, slash, clip a sliver of hair from her (to satisfy her honor), and then hammering her into oblivion, and giving her a couple of days to view life from the inside of Iceflame before revivifying her. "Don't piss me off again, little Dragon." Ahem. Hrm. Well... anyhow. :P Considering the implications, though, would -you- want to be called a 'yendi'? It's clearly used the way 'Machiavellian' tends to be -- generally an insult in casual conversation, but showing approval when describing a plot. Felix Eisen aka Thomas Crain From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Jul 25 23:28:57 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 01:28:57 -0500 Subject: Yo. In-Reply-To: <200207260106.AA870252872@amish2000.com> References: <200207260106.AA870252872@amish2000.com> Message-ID: <20020726062857.GI32424@infodancer.org> On Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 01:06:22AM -0700, M J wrote: > I once had a theory that Tazendra was the Dzurlord to whom Paresh was a serf, > in _Teckla_, but I fear ridicule, so I won't try to convert anyone to it. (Er.) Don't be shy, I think that's generally accepted to be the case. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From frankNfi at zip.com.au Fri Jul 26 01:48:46 2002 From: frankNfi at zip.com.au (frankNfi) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 18:48:46 +1000 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS Message-ID: <3D410CEE.1050204@zip.com.au> Remember, even if humans colonized Dragaera, it was a long time ago, like 100,000 years. Think about that: 100,000 years ago on Earth we sitting in caves sharpening spears. ------ Chris Turkel,Guru, Dragaera Readalong List That would be 100,000 Dragerian years ago. The estimate from the Dragerian time line is 200,000 years. That's about the current estimate of the age of Homo Sapiens. There is no evidence that time runs at the same speed on earth & Dragaera. From the off Dragerian experiences we know of Vlad & Sethra the Younger we now that time can flow differently in different places in the Dragerian Universe. From the evidence of the novels the original colonists to Dragaera would have had to originate on earth some time after the evolution of modern Italian & Hungarian ( within the last 1000 earth years) . And very probably during a period where communism existed & was taken seriously ( the 19th & 20th centuries). If the Steven Brust that is on this list is the same Steven Brust having the conversations with Parfi the now on Dragaera would be in the first Reign of the Dragon in the Second Great Cycle. Therefor time would seem to pass on Dragaera somewhere between 200 & 2000 times as fast as it would on earth. As no one but Mr. Brust has had interdimensional travel on Earth in the last 1000 years I am guessing that the original earth colonists were kidnapped by the Jenoine for their experiments. Francesco From Raellew at aol.com Fri Jul 26 08:01:42 2002 From: Raellew at aol.com (Raellew at aol.com) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 11:01:42 EDT Subject: SPOILERS VERRA--SPOILERS Message-ID: <8c.1b9d9ca3.2a72be56@aol.com> >FYA I just realized that I keep thinking of Five Hundred as a single unit and leaving out the H. Aargh. Rae From randomhonky at hotmail.com Fri Jul 26 11:40:41 2002 From: randomhonky at hotmail.com (T J) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 14:40:41 -0400 Subject: SPOILERS VERRA--SPOILERS Message-ID: >From: Raellew at aol.com >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: SPOILERS VERRA--SPOILERS >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 23:10:19 EDT > >In a message dated 7/25/02, T J writes: > > >I have been thinking about that, and i have recently come to > >my own conclusion that the necromancer is The painting > >baroness from TPG. In jhereg Vlad tells us the necromancer > >is a painter and that she painted the picture of the dieing > >dragon hanging in morrolan's castle, also he explains that > >Katana E'M'archala painted the ceiling of Castle Black. I am > >guessing from the extra apostrophe in the last name that it > >is a shortening of her full last name, like G'aerth. > >The line is e'Marish'Chala. The line's originator was, in full, >Marishori Cvorunn Chalionara. (TPG, 125-126) > > >And we all know the baroness painted a picture of a dieing > >dragon that belonged to Lord Rollandar e'Drien, if memory > >serves e'Drien is the line fo which Morrolan is a member, so > >he could have inherited it some way. > >I'm trying to wait for the readalong list, so I haven't read FYA >recently, but I think Kathana's painting was in the palace at >the time of Adron's Disaster, which would make it gone, gone, >gone. Acutally i got the impression that the painting would have been in the home of Rollander E'Drien, and possibly spared by the disaster. oh well back to TPG, i am gonna have to find that. TJS _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From scs at di.org Fri Jul 26 12:04:11 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 15:04:11 -0400 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS Message-ID: <20020726190411.GA11050@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> It seems that a lot of folks are assuming that `easterners' colonized Dragaera a long time ago. Can't be. Marx and Engels are central to at least two stories. Vlad is *way* in our future. -- "I've thought of her every day for the last ten years, Jar Jar. Every handful of Reese's Pieces reminds me of her beautiful, dark eyes." "You'sa soundin' like you be needin' a Pepsi, Ani." Andrew Porter Glendinning, on Slashdot From frank at exit.com Fri Jul 26 12:16:12 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 12:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS In-Reply-To: <20020726190411.GA11050@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <200207261916.g6QJGCUM071295@realtime.exit.com> Steve Simmons wrote: > It seems that a lot of folks are assuming that `easterners' colonized > Dragaera a long time ago. Can't be. Marx and Engels are central to at > least two stories. Vlad is *way* in our future. I think that they mean "a long time ago" relative to Vlad, not to us. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From tyan at twcny.rr.com Fri Jul 26 13:38:01 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: 26 Jul 2002 16:38:01 -0400 Subject: Musings, Sethra, Aliera, Verra, and being impolite with the word 'yendi' In-Reply-To: FelixEisen@aol.com's message of "Fri, 26 Jul 2002 01:30:03 EDT" References: <2d.20ba9a79.2a72385b@aol.com> Message-ID: FelixEisen at aol.com writes: -snip- > gobs of spoilers, so here's your spoiler space. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 17 traditional Great Weapons, a whole host of Morganti blades. It > is clear (from commentary -- Kragar's?) that the Morganti weapon was > the Serioli plan for the elimination of war, and maybe murder, too > -- make the idea of killing someone so repugnant ('cause you're > destroying their 'immortal soul') that the entire concept of > war/murder becomes anathemic to your society. -snip- That's what Kragar said [1]. Vlad thought the idea and maybe also that it worked was crazy, but Kragar pointed out that it worked *among the Serioli*. As you also point out, it isn't clear if the Serioli were trying to stop war among themselves, stop themselves from fighting Dragaerans/Easterners, or stop war between any of those three races. (Yeah, that was not a parallel grammatical construction. Deal.) [1] Quick reminder, I think Kragar's probably telling the truth, but: + Kragar's source might have been wrong. + Kragar might have misunderstood/misremembered his source. + Kragar might have been lying to Vlad. + Vlad might have misunderstood/misremembered Kragar. + Vlad might have lied to the -"shiny metal box with presumed-ears-at-both-ends". + The translater/transcriber might have screwed up. > The Great Weapons don't exist, just 'regular' Morganti blades. > Considering the timeline: I'd give a 95% chance this happened BEFORE > the arrival of humans (Easterners) on Dragaera; if it'd happened > before that, I think you mean after... > then the Serioli would have been willing to accept the existence of > the human colonists amongst them. (Besides, humans are clearly > widespread, while Dragaerans are, for the most part, centrally > located. More on this in a bit.) ...and I don't think it necessarily follows. Serioli are not necessarily monolothic, and anyway we don't understand how they think. Maybe the appearance of new races would have been enough to make them reconsider their stance on war. Furthermore, it appears to me that Morganti blades require magic and thus cannot be made until after the Big Bang that made the Greater Sea of Chaos, which post-dates the appearance of Easterners, Jenoine, and Dragaerans. > It is possible, however, that it happened shortly -after- the > arrival of the colony, but only if the Serioli are functionally > immune to Morganti blades, as follows: war began between colonists > and Serioli, and the weapons which the Serioli forged -- for -all- > 'sharp artifacts of steel' made by the Serioli are Morganti, -snip- Why would all Serioli-forged blades automatically be Morganti? Issola names the Serioli smith who invented Morganti blades [1]. Plus, doesn't it seem likely that it was war waged with metallic blades that was the motivating factor to stop war? (I don't remember if Morganti blades must be steel/iron-based. Note that Spellbreaker did not appear to be iron-based.) [1] I don't think it can convincingly be argued that Sethra meant Morganti blades had already been invented and that that smith invented (the advances that led to) *Great Weapons*. > Then the Jenoine show up. Immensely powerful, they form their own > enclave, with which to experiment on the 'surrounding critters'. In > this case, the primary 'surrounding critter' was the human; clearly > sentient, they were a perfect subject for experimentation. The > Serioli, having long since reached their 'no more war' policy, maybe > send in a few protests, but they're not at the same power level as > the Jenoine, so the Jenoine tell 'em to bite it before returning to > their experiments. The Serioli shrug, and wander off. Humans > aren't -that- high on their important list, and it's not like the > Jenoine are destroying their souls, right? Tangent: I wonder how intrusive the Jenoine presence generally was, especially given their odd (non-)view of location. Generally, did most Easterners even know the Jenoine existed, and if so, did they recognize them as a threat? Ditto the Dragaerans, if their numbers got large prior to the big kaboom. > Then we have a big kaboom, a Great Sea of Chaos, a few gods, > etc. etc. These aforementioned Gods have two primary motives: > survival and freedom. For the moment they have freedom, and their > enemies are (ahem) in chaos; the Gods turn to individuals they > -know- will be their allies -- the 'new humans', i.e. Dragaerans, > and the old humans, who undoubtedly dislike the Jenoine because, > well, would YOU want aliens coming by to abduct and experiment on > your sister? ... if you live in a remote area that has experienced > abductions, PLEASE don't answer that one. The Primary assistance > comes from the experiments (i.e. Dragaerans) who, having been direct > victims, of course team up. -snip- The few (?) Easterners and Dragaerans knowledgable about the Jenoine threat would be allies, but it's not clear the "general masses" would be particularly worried about the Jenoine or motivated to do anything about them. - tky From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Jul 26 15:25:27 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 18:25:27 -0400 Subject: Musings, Sethra, Aliera, Verra, and being impolite with the word 'yendi' Message-ID: <1844C6F3.1F48E498.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Fri, 26 Jul 2002 12:30:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, FelixEisen at aol.com writes: > Good lord, some of you people talk a lot. Us? Talk a lot? Never! Why, we are the very heart and soul and appendix of Brevity, and can not even conceive of writing one single, solitary word more than is utterly, in all ways, absolutely, critically necessary for us to convey to you, our worthy audience, the humble expressions of what it is we wish to say. :) >?Gobs and gobs of spoilers, so here's your spoiler space. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [invention of Morangti weapons] > Considering the timeline: I'd give a 95% chance this > happened BEFORE the arrival of humans (Easterners) on > Dragaera; if it'd happened before that, then the Serioli > would have been willing to accept the existence of the > human colonists amongst them. Based on what Sethra says on page 37 of _Issola_, its strongly implied that Morganti weapons weren't possible until after the Greater Sea allowed sorcery. >?(Besides, humans are > clearly widespread, while Dragaerans are, for the most > part, centrally located. ?More on this in a bit.) All the Dragaerans were originally experiments, and so presumably started off near the Jenoine research compound. And then Kieron organised them into a single nation (something that didn't happen with the Easterners). > war began between colonists and Serioli, Why must there have been war? Serioli oppose Dragaerans and their gods, but we haven't seen any ill feelings towards Easterners. > and the weapons which the Serioli forged -- for -all- > 'sharp artifacts of steel' made by the Serioli are > Morganti, because that's the (maybe only?) way they make > knives/swords/spears/etc. But then why would they claim that Morganti weapons were invented specifically to abolish war? > Then the Jenoine show up. ?Immensely powerful, they form > their own enclave, with which to experiment on the > 'surrounding critters'. ?In this case, the primary > 'surrounding critter' was the human; clearly sentient, > they were a perfect subject for experimentation. ?The > Serioli, having long since reached their 'no more war' > policy, maybe send in a few protests, but they're not at > the same power level as the Jenoine, so the Jenoine tell > 'em to bite it before returning to their experiments. ?The > Serioli shrug, and wander off. ? Hmmmm... wish we could see what the Serioli thought of the Jenoine when they arrived. > Then we have a big kaboom, a Great Sea of Chaos, a few > gods, etc. etc. ?These aforementioned Gods have two > primary motives: survival and freedom. ?For the moment > they have freedom, and their enemies are (ahem) in chaos; > the Gods turn to individuals they -know- will be their > allies -- the 'new humans', i.e. Dragaerans, and the old > humans, who undoubtedly dislike the Jenoine because, well, > would YOU want aliens coming by to abduct and experiment > on your sister? ? That reminds me; the impression that I got from Sethra's history lesson was that the gods sided with the Dragaerans against everyone else, which I consider to be a big mistake, and perhaps its starting to catch up with them. Of course, Verra seemed to be leading the early gods, and I'm not at all impressed with her god-like intellectual abilities. > During the lull in which the Jenoine who survived/fled the > GSoC detonation We could call it "Verra's Disaster". :) I remember someone on the newsgroup arguing that Zerika should arrest Aliera as a pre-emptive move, since BOTH of her parents destroyed significant amounts of geography. > recover before trying to return, the Gods encourage the > 5,000 tribes (okay, okay, 31 or whatever) of Dragaerans to > get together -- via Zerika. Uniteing the tribes was Kieron's idea (prompted by the gods I think). I'm not certain that Zerika I was even alive then. (Paintings aren't neccessarily canonical.) >?Zerika most likely was one of (if not -the-) the most > powerful Shamans of the Tribes; she, possibly Sethra, > maybe a Serioli, and maybe Verra (I don't recall if Verra I wouldn't think a Serioli would be invovled, but then myth claims the Orb was made by Jenoine, which is even less likely. > Side note: I find it interesting that we never find out > the Serioli name of Iceflame; it would, I expect, be > REALLY telling about what power Dzur Mountain represents, > how it got there, etc. According to Vlad, its Dagger-Shaped-Bearer-of-Fire-That- Burns-Like-Ice, which at least sounds Seriolian. See page 223 of _Phoenix_. >?My personal pet theory is that it was the first (and > probably enormous) stockpile by the Jenoine for cracking > back against the Lords of Judgement -- but someone slipped > up, and Sethra got the one and only key. ?'Take that, > Bambridge Scholars!!' There is speculation that it can be used like a personal Orb. --KG From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Jul 26 16:11:15 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 19:11:15 EDT Subject: Musings, Sethra, Aliera, Verra, and being impolite with the word 'yendi' Message-ID: <1a1.5e4419a.2a733113@aol.com> Spoilser Space In a message dated 7/26/2002 4:25:41 PM Mountain Daylight Time, Gaertk at aol.com writes: > I remember someone on the newsgroup arguing that Zerika > should arrest Aliera as a pre-emptive move, since BOTH of > her parents destroyed significant amounts of geography. Dragaeran Minority Report, eh? -grins- Stacy From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Jul 26 16:03:07 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 18:03:07 -0500 Subject: Musings, Sethra, Aliera, Verra, and being impolite with the word 'yendi' In-Reply-To: <1844C6F3.1F48E498.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <1844C6F3.1F48E498.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020726230307.GF25486@infodancer.org> On Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 06:25:27PM -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated Fri, 26 Jul 2002 12:30:03 AM Eastern > Standard Time, FelixEisen at aol.com writes: > >?Gobs and gobs of spoilers, so here's your spoiler space. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We could call it "Verra's Disaster". :) > I remember someone on the newsgroup arguing that Zerika > should arrest Aliera as a pre-emptive move, since BOTH of > her parents destroyed significant amounts of geography. What, and provide provocation for Aliera to destroy significant amounts of geography in retaliation? Rather counterproductive. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Fri Jul 26 16:31:49 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 16:31:49 -0700 Subject: Musings, Sethra, Aliera, Verra, and being impolite with the word 'yendi' In-Reply-To: <1844C6F3.1F48E498.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <1844C6F3.1F48E498.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020726233149.GA1434@ofb.net> On Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 06:25:27PM -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > >?Gobs and gobs of spoilers, so here's your spoiler space. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > strongly implied that Morganti weapons weren't possible > until after the Greater Sea allowed sorcery. Only if they're sorcerous in nature (and what about elder sorcery, which could tap its own sources of chaos?) The Jenoine bred psionic power into humans; possibly psionics are natural, and predate all the chaos experiments. Morganti soul-ripping/devouring could be psionic, or an aspect of some other natural 'mystical' force. Although now I remember an implication that Morganti weapons were elder sorcery made manifest. > > war began between colonists and Serioli, > Why must there have been war? Serioli oppose Dragaerans and > their gods, but we haven't seen any ill feelings towards > Easterners. Not now. But it's been a while. Way back then... gee, why would one suspect warfare erupting between a bunch of human colonists and the local natives? Why, has anything like that ever happened in history? :) -xx- Damien X-) From tyan at twcny.rr.com Fri Jul 26 16:41:01 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: 26 Jul 2002 19:41:01 -0400 Subject: Musings, Sethra, Aliera, Verra, and being impolite with the word 'yendi' In-Reply-To: Gaertk@aol.com's message of "Fri, 26 Jul 2002 18:25:27 -0400" References: <1844C6F3.1F48E498.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: Gaertk at aol.com writes: > >?Gobs and gobs of spoilers, so here's your spoiler space. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All the Dragaerans were originally experiments, and so > presumably started off near the Jenoine research compound. Only one compound? Maybe not near, given the Jenoine's attitude towards "location" -- maybe only tagged, for easy pickup. > That reminds me; the impression that I got from Sethra's > history lesson was that the gods sided with the Dragaerans > against everyone else, which I consider to be a big mistake, > and perhaps its starting to catch up with them. Of course, > Verra seemed to be leading the early gods, and I'm not at > all impressed with her god-like intellectual abilities. That's my impression, too, although keep in mind that Verra is Vlad's (ancestors') patron goddess. > I remember someone on the newsgroup arguing that Zerika > should arrest Aliera as a pre-emptive move, since BOTH of > her parents destroyed significant amounts of geography. Wow, my mind went blank for an extended moment. I was about to ask, wait, who is her mother and what did *she* do? > >?Zerika most likely was one of (if not -the-) the most > > powerful Shamans of the Tribes; she, possibly Sethra, > > maybe a Serioli, and maybe Verra (I don't recall if Verra > > I wouldn't think a Serioli would be invovled, but then > myth claims the Orb was made by Jenoine, which is even less > likely. Cite? p37 of Issola has Sethra attribute the Orb's creation to Zerika, under the directions of the gods. - tky From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Jul 26 16:39:41 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 19:39:41 -0400 Subject: Musings, Sethra, Aliera, Verra, and being impolite with the word 'yendi' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Friday, July 26, 2002, at 07:41 PM, Thomas Yan wrote: > Gaertk at aol.com writes: > >>> ?Gobs and gobs of spoilers, so here's your spoiler space. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> All the Dragaerans were originally experiments, and so >> presumably started off near the Jenoine research compound. > > Only one compound? Maybe not near, given the Jenoine's attitude > towards "location" -- maybe only tagged, for easy pickup. > >> That reminds me; the impression that I got from Sethra's >> history lesson was that the gods sided with the Dragaerans >> against everyone else, which I consider to be a big mistake, >> and perhaps its starting to catch up with them. Of course, >> Verra seemed to be leading the early gods, and I'm not at >> all impressed with her god-like intellectual abilities. > > That's my impression, too, although keep in mind that Verra is Vlad's > (ancestors') patron goddess. > >> I remember someone on the newsgroup arguing that Zerika >> should arrest Aliera as a pre-emptive move, since BOTH of >> her parents destroyed significant amounts of geography. > > Wow, my mind went blank for an extended moment. I was about to ask, > wait, who is her mother and what did *she* do? > >>> ?Zerika most likely was one of (if not -the-) the most >>> powerful Shamans of the Tribes; she, possibly Sethra, >>> maybe a Serioli, and maybe Verra (I don't recall if Verra >> >> I wouldn't think a Serioli would be invovled, but then >> myth claims the Orb was made by Jenoine, which is even less >> likely. > > Cite? p37 of Issola has Sethra attribute the Orb's creation to > Zerika, under the directions of the gods. > > - tky > > Was that the original orb? Thought there had been at least one before. I could be wrong. ------ Chris Turkel,Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Fri Jul 26 17:36:46 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:36:46 -0700 Subject: Morganti Musings Message-ID: Thomas Yan wrote: > > FelixEisen at aol.com writes: > -snip- > > > > 17 traditional Great Weapons, a whole host of Morganti blades. It > > is clear (from commentary -- Kragar's?) that the Morganti weapon was > > the Serioli plan for the elimination of war, and maybe murder, too > > -- make the idea of killing someone so repugnant ('cause you're > > destroying their 'immortal soul') that the entire concept of > > war/murder becomes anathemic to your society. > -snip- > > That's what Kragar said [1]. Vlad thought the idea and maybe also > that it worked was crazy, but Kragar pointed out that it worked *among > the Serioli*. As you also point out, it isn't clear if the Serioli > were trying to stop war among themselves, stop themselves from > fighting Dragaerans/Easterners, or stop war between any of those three > races. (Yeah, that was not a parallel grammatical construction. > Deal.) I've always interpreted that conversation to mean that the Serioli invented Morganti weapons to eliminate war amongst themselves (Serioli vs. Serioli). Then along comes the enterprising Dragaeran, who doesn't see the weapon as a deterrent, but rather a symbol of power. I can see a Dragaeran walking into a Serioli armory and saying, "Hmm. Kills the soul, as seen on TV. Great idea. I'll take ten." I mean, not only are Morganti weapons powerful in the practical sense, as symbols of power, two Dragonlords could conceivably go to war over a stash of them... hey, wait a minute... *grin* Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Fri Jul 26 17:37:53 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:37:53 -0700 Subject: Musings, Aliera Message-ID: FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: > > During the lull in which the Jenoine who survived/fled the GSoC detonation > recover before trying to return, the Gods encourage the 5,000 tribes (okay, > okay, 31 or whatever) of Dragaerans to get together -- via Zerika. Zerika > most likely was one of (if not -the-) the most powerful Shamans of the > Tribes; she, possibly Sethra, maybe a Serioli, and maybe Verra (I don't > recall if Verra was there, so someone can correct me if they want...) get > together and create the Orb. This has the following effects: Random tangent: Anyone know if reincarnation in Dragaerans occurs by house? I.e. Dragons only come back as Dragons, etc.? Where am I going with this? Well, does anyone know what Aliera's name was back at the beginning, when she was Kieron's sibling? If Zerika was the most powerful Shaman, and Aliera was *a* powerful Shaman.... it's a leap, but could Aliera's soul be Zerika's? The tribes were splitting up right about then, so it's plausible that three of the most important people of that time, Kieron, Dolivar, and whoever Aliera was, became the founders of their Houses, Dragon, Jhereg, Phoenix? This entire argument hinges on who Aliera was, since I can't remember if her name back then was ever explicitly mentioned. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From scs at di.org Fri Jul 26 18:21:59 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 21:21:59 -0400 Subject: Musings, Aliera Message-ID: <20020727012159.GA16697@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Jose Marquez asks: > Random tangent: Anyone know if reincarnation in Dragaerans occurs by > house? Nope, crosses all over the place. You don't even have to be dead -- there are methods in place for the living to become Dzur, Dragon, Jhereg, etc. Not to mention the half/quarter/octo-breeds we keep running into. -- "I've thought of her every day for the last ten years, Jar Jar. Every handful of Reese's Pieces reminds me of her beautiful, dark eyes." "You'sa soundin' like you be needin' a Pepsi, Ani." Andrew Porter Glendinning, on Slashdot From Raellew at aol.com Fri Jul 26 18:49:05 2002 From: Raellew at aol.com (Raellew at aol.com) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 21:49:05 EDT Subject: Musings, Sethra, Aliera, Verra, and being impolite with the word 'yendi' Message-ID: In a message dated 7/26/02, Gaertk at aol.com writes: In a message dated Fri, 26 Jul 2002 12:30:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, FelixEisen at aol.com writes: >> During the lull in which the Jenoine who survived/fled the >> GSoC detonation > >We could call it "Verra's Disaster". :) > >I remember someone on the newsgroup arguing that Zerika >should arrest Aliera as a pre-emptive move, since BOTH of >her parents destroyed significant amounts of geography. What, arrest a woman because her mother made sorcery, the Orb, and life as Dragaerans know it possible? Besides, it'd piss Aliera off. Rae From jedijane at yahoo.com Fri Jul 26 19:51:08 2002 From: jedijane at yahoo.com (Michelle Goepp) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 19:51:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020727025108.9197.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com> > Does anybody see a pattern here? Thinking back, I don't recall either > way if Paarfi mentioned Iceflame (tho I'm gonna re-read those books soon), > so its quite possible that all four of the GWs we know of were not > available until after Adrons Disaster. Whoa--Adron's Disaster as a cosmic deregulation of Great Weapons... :) "If you outlaw freaking scary soul-eating blades, then only outlaws will have freaking scary soul-eating blades." ===== Michelle "Black holes are where God divided by zero." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Fri Jul 26 20:15:31 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 20:15:31 -0700 Subject: Musings, Aliera In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020727031531.GA21198@ofb.net> On Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 05:37:53PM -0700, Jose Marquez wrote: > tribes were splitting up right about then, so it's plausible that three of the > most important people of that time, Kieron, Dolivar, and whoever Aliera was, > became the founders of their Houses, Dragon, Jhereg, Phoenix? This entire > argument hinges on who Aliera was, since I can't remember if her name back > then was ever explicitly mentioned. It wasn't, but I don't buy it. She's was Kieron's sibling (we don't actually know her old gender) and Kieron (and Dolivar) were Dragons. With dragon genes. The house of the Phoenix has phoenix genes. Dolivar founding the Jhereg is an exception. -xx- Damien X-) From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Fri Jul 26 22:37:49 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 22:37:49 -0700 Subject: Musings, Aliera Message-ID: Damien Sullivan wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 26, 2002 at 05:37:53PM -0700, Jose Marquez wrote: > > > tribes were splitting up right about then, so it's plausible that three of the > > most important people of that time, Kieron, Dolivar, and whoever Aliera was, > > became the founders of their Houses, Dragon, Jhereg, Phoenix? This entire > > argument hinges on who Aliera was, since I can't remember if her name back > > then was ever explicitly mentioned. > > It wasn't, but I don't buy it. She's was Kieron's sibling (we don't actually > know her old gender) and Kieron (and Dolivar) were Dragons. With dragon > genes. The house of the Phoenix has phoenix genes. Dolivar founding the > Jhereg is an exception. Yeah, it was a nice crackpot theory, but then, that's what happens when you're 1121 miles away from your books on a fairly regular basis. If I'd been home, I would have at least done some fact checking; I now recall that a) the Jenoine genetic experiments established the genes that determine House (except for Jhereg); and that b) the "tribes" or Houses were already more or less established. So unless there is some way for a genetic Dragon to also be a Phoenix, and also be the first Phoenix empress, my little theory won't wash. Oh, well, it was fun while it lasted. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From scs at di.org Sat Jul 27 00:32:19 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 03:32:19 -0400 Subject: Uncle Vlad - Spoilers, probably Message-ID: <20020727073219.GA21955@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> It could just be because I woke up at 2AM with a bad case of indigestion, but this sure feels like a new thought . . . spoilers ho. Verra is Vlads mother. I've made the case elsewhere that Vlad is a God unaware; Verra being his mother would help explain the how and why of it. It also makes him *literally* Uncle Vlad to Devera, as he's Aliera's half-brother. -- ``If you're a software engineer, your basic building material is human intellect and your primary tool is *you*.'' -- Steve McConnell, `Code Complete', pg 755 From grapawy at yahoo.com Sat Jul 27 10:08:27 2002 From: grapawy at yahoo.com (Gregory Rapawy) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 10:08:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Musings, Aliera In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020727170827.75684.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> (Warning: _Issola_ spoilers.) --- Jose Marquez wrote: > Damien Sullivan wrote: [...] >> [Aliera] was Kieron's sibling (we don't actually >> know her old gender) and Kieron (and Dolivar) were >> Dragons. With dragon genes. The house of the >> Phoenix has phoenix genes. Dolivar founding the >> Jhereg is an exception. [...] > I now recall that a) the Jenoine genetic experiments > established the genes that determine House (except for > Jhereg); and that b) the "tribes" or Houses were > already more or less established. So unless there is > some way for a genetic Dragon to also be a > Phoenix, and also be the first Phoenix empress, my > little theory won't wash. Oh, well, it was fun while > it lasted. After _Issola_, I think we must consider Aliera's explanation of Dragaeran genetics in _Jhereg_ to be suspect. First, Sethra tells Vlad that there were originally not seventeen but thirty-one tribes. Second, Sethra also tells Vlad (corroborated somewhat indirectly by the Serioli in _Dragon_) that the Dragaerans were originally of human stock -- and, specifically, that Aliera refuses to believe this. It could be, of course, that Aliera's account is substantially true but lacks some details. For example, there might have been thirty-one tribes constructed from thirty-one animals, almost half of which were wiped out or assimilated to the Teckla or Jhereg. It could also be that the concept of House (Phoenix and Dragon equally with Teckla and Jhereg) is socially constructed[1] -- a myth with slight or no basis in biological fact that is used to support certain social practices and institutions. Most likely, I think, there is some biological basis for the prevailing concept of House (and the distinction between Dragaerans and Easterners; there is considerable ambiguity concerning Vlad's relationship to the Paths in _Taltos_) but not nearly so much as Aliera would lead Vlad to believe, or as she herself believes. I have found generally that the Dragaera books contain a very interesting treatment of race and class in the fantasy context. -- Greg [1] Please forgive my use of an sometimes-abused and often-mocked phrase. At times specialized language, whatever its defects, is the easiest way to express an idea quickly. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Sat Jul 27 10:30:13 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 10:30:13 -0700 Subject: Uncle Vlad - Spoilers, probably Message-ID: Steve Simmons wrote: > > It could just be because I woke up at 2AM with a bad case of indigestion, > but this sure feels like a new thought . . . spoilers ho. > > > > > > > > > > Verra is Vlads mother. I've made the case elsewhere that Vlad is a > God unaware; Verra being his mother would help explain the how and why > of it. It also makes him *literally* Uncle Vlad to Devera, as he's > Aliera's half-brother. What about Vlad's father and the witch he married (mentioned in Jhereg, I think)? I'm sure Verra can make herself look like an Easterner, but why would she want to? And wouldn't Noish-pa have noticed? Or would he not care? As an aside, I've always wondered about that whole Uncle Vlad deal. It's possible that you're right, and that Vlad and Devera are blood relations. I was raised in Panama, in a fairly traditional hispanic family; this means that you have lots of "Aunts" and "Uncles" that aren't really related to you by blood, but by their friendship to your parents and their frequent prescence throughout your childhood. I suppose it wouldn't be considered polite for a child to address an adult with the familiarity of a first name. It seems to me that Vlad will always be close to Morrolan and Aliera (and he is Aliera's brother by means of their souls), and thus be able to be considered an Uncle. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From den at monger.net Sat Jul 27 10:24:45 2002 From: den at monger.net (Dennis Higbee) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 10:24:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Musings, Aliera In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Jul 2002, Jose Marquez wrote: Issola Spoilers: > Random tangent: Anyone know if reincarnation in Dragaerans occurs by house? > I.e. Dragons only come back as Dragons, etc.? Where am I going with this? > Well, does anyone know what Aliera's name was back at the beginning, when she > was Kieron's sibling? If Zerika was the most powerful Shaman, and Aliera was > *a* powerful Shaman.... it's a leap, but could Aliera's soul be Zerika's? The > tribes were splitting up right about then, so it's plausible that three of the > most important people of that time, Kieron, Dolivar, and whoever Aliera was, > became the founders of their Houses, Dragon, Jhereg, Phoenix? This entire > argument hinges on who Aliera was, since I can't remember if her name back > then was ever explicitly mentioned. I personally like the idea that Aliera's previous life was Drien. Drien is described as "a contemporary of Kieron the Conqueror" and "the first Shaman who was also a warrior" (or something like that; I don't have my copy of _Issola_ at the moment to check against), which is close to what Aliera said in _Jhereg_. -Dennis From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Sat Jul 27 10:44:50 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 10:44:50 -0700 Subject: Musings, Aliera Message-ID: Dennis Higbee wrote: > > On Fri, 26 Jul 2002, Jose Marquez wrote: > > Issola Spoilers: > > > > > > > > > I personally like the idea that Aliera's previous life was Drien. Drien > is described as "a contemporary of Kieron the Conqueror" and "the first > Shaman who was also a warrior" (or something like that; I don't have my > copy of _Issola_ at the moment to check against), which is close to what > Aliera said in _Jhereg_. That raises an interesting point. Aliera says that only those of Kieron's blood can create Chaos (or something like that). Vlad, being of Kieron's blood by way of his soul, is able to. Aliera, being both Kieron's sister by way of her soul and of the e'Kieron line, is also able to. But if Aliera's previous life was Drien, then the e'Drien clan would be of Kieron's blood and by extension should be able to create Chaos, and Morrolan cannot. Maybe the relationship between Drien's descendants and Kieron thins the Chaos blood too much for it to work, though. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From den at monger.net Sat Jul 27 10:54:55 2002 From: den at monger.net (Dennis Higbee) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 10:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Musings, Aliera In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Jul 2002, Jose Marquez wrote: > > Dennis Higbee wrote: > > > > On Fri, 26 Jul 2002, Jose Marquez wrote: > > > > Issola Spoilers: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I personally like the idea that Aliera's previous life was Drien. Drien > > is described as "a contemporary of Kieron the Conqueror" and "the first > > Shaman who was also a warrior" (or something like that; I don't have my > > copy of _Issola_ at the moment to check against), which is close to what > > Aliera said in _Jhereg_. > > That raises an interesting point. Aliera says that only those of Kieron's > blood can create Chaos (or something like that). Vlad, being of Kieron's blood > by way of his soul, is able to. Aliera, being both Kieron's sister by way of > her soul and of the e'Kieron line, is also able to. But if Aliera's previous > life was Drien, then the e'Drien clan would be of Kieron's blood and by > extension should be able to create Chaos, and Morrolan cannot. Maybe the > relationship between Drien's descendants and Kieron thins the Chaos blood too > much for it to work, though. It's not really an issue, since Morrolan is, if Vlad's narration of _Taltos_ can be believed, descended from Kieron anyway: Ta: p. 144, "I'm the eldest son of your father's youngest sister." Morrolan's mother is e'Kieron, which leads me to believe one of three things: 1) The power to control chaos descends in the male line. Females can inherit it, like Aliera, but not pass it on. I find this unlikely, since the Empire, or at least the House of the Dragon, doesn't seem to be entirely patrilineal, but it is possible. 2) Morrolan can wield raw chaos. We just haven't seen him do it. 3) Vlad misremembered the conversation and Morrolan and Aliera are not related in the way _Taltos_ says they are. I find this really unlikely. (Even if their relationship isn't confirmed by FHYA, in order for Morrolan to be both Aliera's first cousin and not descended from Kieron, they'd have to be related on her mother's side--does Verra have sisters?) So I don't think Drien's descendants not having the power to manipulate raw chaos is an issue as to whether Aliera was Drien in that life. -Dennis From holden at salome.uchicago.edu Sat Jul 27 12:16:01 2002 From: holden at salome.uchicago.edu (Brad) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 14:16:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Uncle Vlad - Spoilers, probably In-Reply-To: (message from Jose Marquez on Sat, 27 Jul 2002 10:30:13 -0700) References: Message-ID: <200207271916.g6RJG1M12698@salome.uchicago.edu> >From: Jose Marquez >As an aside, I've always wondered about that whole Uncle Vlad deal. It's >possible that you're right, and that Vlad and Devera are blood relations. I >was raised in Panama, in a fairly traditional hispanic family; this means that >you have lots of "Aunts" and "Uncles" that aren't really related to you by >blood, but by their friendship to your parents and their frequent prescence >throughout your childhood. I suppose it wouldn't be considered polite for a >child to address an adult with the familiarity of a first name. It seems to me >that Vlad will always be close to Morrolan and Aliera (and he is Aliera's >brother by means of their souls), and thus be able to be considered an Uncle. I had always seen it this way. Having grown up in a middle class white family in Michigan, I too had "uncles" and "aunts" who were very close friends of my parents. I had never even thought of the possibility of Vlad actually being a real uncle until it was just mentioned. Of course, it makes complete sense, as Aliera does call Vlad brother (in the soul sense). I request that the members of the list to please continue removing my preconceptions. brad From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sat Jul 27 12:46:17 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 12:46:17 -0700 Subject: The Gypsy In-Reply-To: <200207252321.g6PNLsG05384@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020727124456.026f0ca0@pop3.lvcm.com> At 04:22 PM 7/25/2002 -0700, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: >"Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and >everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes >tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, >son." > - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm You're the first one who has commented on that passage, which I remember being awfully proud of. Thank you! From lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com Sat Jul 27 18:02:03 2002 From: lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com (Lowki Liesmith) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 21:02:03 -0400 Subject: Morganti Musings Message-ID: Just a thought, could the morganti sword that adron got from that easterner (I forget his name... Crionefar or something)in Phoenix Guards be a great weapon? the sword was given to him by a Taltos horse so I think it possible. but then again, in dragaera, any thing is possible. >From: Jose Marquez >Reply-To: jhereg69 at earthlink.net >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: Morganti Musings >Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 17:36:46 -0700 > >Thomas Yan wrote: > > > > FelixEisen at aol.com writes: > > -snip- > > > > > > 17 traditional Great Weapons, a whole host of Morganti blades. It > > > is clear (from commentary -- Kragar's?) that the Morganti weapon was > > > the Serioli plan for the elimination of war, and maybe murder, too > > > -- make the idea of killing someone so repugnant ('cause you're > > > destroying their 'immortal soul') that the entire concept of > > > war/murder becomes anathemic to your society. > > -snip- > > > > That's what Kragar said [1]. Vlad thought the idea and maybe also > > that it worked was crazy, but Kragar pointed out that it worked *among > > the Serioli*. As you also point out, it isn't clear if the Serioli > > were trying to stop war among themselves, stop themselves from > > fighting Dragaerans/Easterners, or stop war between any of those three > > races. (Yeah, that was not a parallel grammatical construction. > > Deal.) > >I've always interpreted that conversation to mean that the Serioli invented >Morganti weapons to eliminate war amongst themselves (Serioli vs. Serioli). >Then along comes the enterprising Dragaeran, who doesn't see the weapon as >a >deterrent, but rather a symbol of power. I can see a Dragaeran walking into >a >Serioli armory and saying, "Hmm. Kills the soul, as seen on TV. Great idea. >I'll take ten." I mean, not only are Morganti weapons powerful in the >practical sense, as symbols of power, two Dragonlords could conceivably go >to >war over a stash of them... hey, wait a minute... > >*grin* > >Jose >-- >Jose Marquez >jhereg69 at earthlink.net _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Sat Jul 27 20:07:06 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 22:07:06 -0500 Subject: Food and critters References: <20020614051132.89EA526E26@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <3D435FDA.543EB2C3@attbi.com> rone wrote: > I also greatly enjoyed the "smoked pinkfish and buttercheese" bit from _Issola_. < I know this is weeks and weeks old, but I did want to mention that "smoked pinkfish and buttercheese" is a standard schtick in my household--my son and I never call it anything else. Mia From mneme at io.com Sat Jul 27 20:03:50 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 22:03:50 -0500 Subject: Food and critters In-Reply-To: <3D435FDA.543EB2C3@attbi.com> References: <20020614051132.89EA526E26@boredom.ennui.org> <3D435FDA.543EB2C3@attbi.com> Message-ID: <15683.24342.294498.492794@eris.io.com> Mia McDavid writes: >rone wrote: >>I also greatly enjoyed the "smoked pinkfish and >>buttercheese" bit from _Issola_. >I know this is weeks and weeks old, but I did want to mention that >"smoked pinkfish and buttercheese" is a standard schtick in my >household--my son and I never call it anything else. My only gripe with this is that "smoked pinkfish" is a pale immitation of the true delicacy eaten with round (boiled) loaves and buttercheese -- the salt-cured pinkfish. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Sun Jul 28 01:35:14 2002 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 01:35:14 -0700 Subject: Unraveling of Dragon family trees... Message-ID: <200207280135.AA669647198@amish2000.com> j0. I apologize if this has already been discussed; I've been skimming through the archives (yes, y'all talk FAR too damned much, or you would if it weren't all interesting) and haven't seen it, but I may have missed it. Molric e'Drien, Adron's chainman in FHYA... Would that have been Morrolan's elder brother? It's the right sort of name, and there's a line right after Molric dies that goes, "he would never meet his brother," which makes me think that said brother would be someone of importance. Morrolan is the only really important e'Drien we've met so far (those words will come back to haunt me as people throw e'Driens at me), and it charms me to think of Morrolan having a brother who served as gofer to his hero. ~ MJ ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ ~ Wait, Don't Leave Yet! ~ http://lextalionis.virtualave.net/ ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ ~ A Pirate Looks At Twenty ~ http://erythros.livejournal.com/ ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ ________________________________________________________________ Get your own evilemail.com address at http://www.evilemail.com From zizban at adelphia.net Sun Jul 28 17:03:50 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 20:03:50 -0400 Subject: Yellow Rose of Texas Message-ID: Great work, Steve! I had a girlfriend who was a pagan and it made me chuckle. ------ Chris Turkel,Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Sun Jul 28 23:38:09 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 01:38:09 -0500 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS References: <20020726190411.GA11050@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: Steve Simmons wrote: > It seems that a lot of folks are assuming that `easterners' colonized > Dragaera a long time ago. Can't be. Marx and Engels are central to > at least two stories. Vlad is *way* in our future. Well then........ that artifact can communicate through time *shrugs* not surprised. From lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com Mon Jul 29 02:22:17 2002 From: lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com (Lowki Liesmith) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 05:22:17 -0400 Subject: Unraveling of Dragon family trees... Message-ID: I have made a point of this before. I think that he most likely is morralan's brother but I have a feeling that we will find out in Viscount. I can't wait for those books. >From: "M J" >Reply-To: >To: >Subject: Unraveling of Dragon family trees... >Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 01:35:14 -0700 > >j0. > >I apologize if this has already been discussed; I've been skimming >through the archives (yes, y'all talk FAR too damned much, or you >would if it weren't all interesting) and haven't seen it, but I may >have missed it. > >Molric e'Drien, Adron's chainman in FHYA... > >Would that have been Morrolan's elder brother? It's the right sort >of name, and there's a line right after Molric dies that goes, "he >would never meet his brother," which makes me think that said >brother would be someone of importance. Morrolan is the only >really important e'Drien we've met so far (those words will come >back to haunt me as people throw e'Driens at me), and it charms me >to think of Morrolan having a brother who served as gofer to his >hero. > >~ >MJ > >~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ > ~ Wait, Don't Leave Yet! ~ > http://lextalionis.virtualave.net/ >~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ > ~ A Pirate Looks At Twenty ~ > http://erythros.livejournal.com/ >~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ > > >________________________________________________________________ >Get your own evilemail.com address at http://www.evilemail.com > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From tmer at eudoramail.com Mon Jul 29 10:17:48 2002 From: tmer at eudoramail.com (Barbara Baj) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 13:17:48 -0400 Subject: the next vlad book? Message-ID: -- On Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:03:09 Ian sympatico wrote: >I read somewhere that his creative process involved imbibing large >quantities of either alcohol (or other substances) and then writing whatever >came to mind. After I read that I did not try to hard to reconcille the >contradictions in each book and just went with the flow of the story. > >Ian > I'm not sure where you read that, but while he was writing the Merlin series he did a lecture in NYC. I had the luck to be able to go, and I remember people asking him where things were going to go with that series, and he replied that he simply didn't know yet. I'm pretty sure it wasn't substances that gave him the ability to write. He wrote as he went along. He wasn't someone who planned very far into his stories, he just *wrote* and watched where they went. This is sort of what he implied (which of course is subject to interpretation) given the questions asked and how he answered them then. I think he didn't sweat details, just went for the story. - Barb Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From tmer at eudoramail.com Mon Jul 29 10:25:59 2002 From: tmer at eudoramail.com (Barbara Baj) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 13:25:59 -0400 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version Message-ID: Warning: Issola Spoiler -- On Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:01:35 Starshadw wrote: >We're stupid to have forgotten this. We should have asked something about how it feels to be carrying around the second most powerful artifact on the entire fecking planet, and when does the culling of the gods begin? :) > >Stacy > This got me thinking. I don't have my book with me, but in _Issola_, the Necromancer tells Vlad: I'm going to miss you. Am I the only one who thinks she meant Vlad as Vlad, as opposed to Vlad just leaving Dragaera for the East? I get the strong notion that the Vlad/Teldra occurrence merged their souls for all time. - Barb Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From tyan at twcny.rr.com Mon Jul 29 10:55:08 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: 29 Jul 2002 13:55:08 -0400 Subject: [DbS] TPG ch12-ch14 In-Reply-To: David Dyer-Bennet's message of "18 Jul 2002 23:07:09 -0500" References: <61D8E84F.22AD4D8D.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: David Dyer-Bennet writes: > Thomas Yan writes: > > > pp135-136: [Pel:G'aereth] dispatches; 6 witnesses = 6 different > > reports = (according to Athyra philosopher Hydragaar) 6 > > different events; Daridd of Diar-by-the-Bennaat is right: > > that's overreacting {Heh. I hadn't noticed that name was > > like David Dyer-Bennet before now. Hydragaar appears to be > > a corruption of Heidegger (Existentialism dude). Hm, > > reincarnation doesn't seem totally impossible....} > > Strange coincidence, eh? :-) > > You might try comparing the name of the artist/dragonlord to that of > the illustrator of the Steeldragon Press edition of _To Reign In > Hell_, too. Heh heh. From amazon: Kathana e'Marish'Chala Kathy Marschall - tky From singram at videotron.ca Mon Jul 29 14:31:24 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 17:31:24 -0400 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version References: Message-ID: <09c901c23747$4a7a2600$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barbara Baj" To: ; Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 1:25 PM Subject: Re: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version > Warning: Issola Spoiler > > > > > > -- > > On Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:01:35 Starshadw wrote: > >We're stupid to have forgotten this. We should have asked something about how it feels to be carrying around the second most powerful artifact on the entire fecking planet, and when does the culling of the gods begin? :) I think carrying the second most powerful artifact in the world around is taking a back seat to carrying Teldra around in his head. Re: culling of the gods: I think Teldra would find indescriminate culling to be rude, so I doubt Vlad will be doing this. From zizban at adelphia.net Mon Jul 29 14:37:56 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 17:37:56 -0400 Subject: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version In-Reply-To: <09c901c23747$4a7a2600$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: <722362FA-A33B-11D6-B4D6-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Monday, July 29, 2002, at 05:31 PM, Scott Ingram wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Barbara Baj" > To: ; > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 1:25 PM > Subject: Re: Vlad Interview Questions -- Final Version > > >> Warning: Issola Spoiler >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> On Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:01:35 Starshadw wrote: >>> We're stupid to have forgotten this. We should have asked something > about how it feels to be carrying around the second most powerful > artifact > on the entire fecking planet, and when does the culling of the gods > begin? > :) > > I think carrying the second most powerful artifact in the world around > is > taking a back seat to carrying Teldra around in his head. > Re: culling of the gods: I think Teldra would find indescriminate > culling to > be rude, so I doubt Vlad will be doing this. > > > I agree. If Vlad is getting antsy about killing people for a living, I would think killing gods would give him pause as well. ------ Chris Turkel,Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From eshivak at netzero.net Mon Jul 29 18:57:45 2002 From: eshivak at netzero.net (eshivak) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 21:57:45 -0400 Subject: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS In-Reply-To: <200207251741.g6PHf1G05573@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: And maybe it all takes place on Earth.... -----Original Message----- From: Chris Olson - SunPS [mailto:Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM] Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 1:41 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Random thoughts and musings--SPOILERS > Remember, even if humans colonized Dragaera, it was a long time ago, > like 100,000 years. Think about that: 100,000 years ago on Earth we > sitting in caves sharpening spears. If I recall correctly... The Easterners were there before Dragaerans, and they (Dragaerans) have been around for a couple hundred-thousand years. As the humans were there before the Jenoine came along, I'd suspect the humans have been around for even longer. Maybe they weren't as technologicaly-savvy as we on earth (heh.) Or maybe the Jenoine bred some intelligence into them the way they did with the Jhereg!! Hey! Maybe we've found the Missing Link!! ~Chris "So farewell hope, and with hope, farewell fear, Farewell remorse! All good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my Good" - John Milton - 'Paradise Lost' ------------------------------------------- Introducing NetZero Long Distance Unlimited Long Distance only $29.95/ month! Sign Up Today! www.netzerolongdistance.com From tyan at twcny.rr.com Wed Jul 31 20:49:32 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 23:49:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours Message-ID: <200208010349.g713nWBR011670@localhost.twcny.rr.com> When did you first become aware of the Overcast? I think I had already read a handful of books and still managed not to notice it until it was forcibly brought to my attention on RASFW. Of course, *afterwards*, I saw that it had been mentioned or alluded to in many places. (Anyone care to speculate how long it has been around?) I also passed over my non-comprehension regarding the "box with presumed ears at both ends" until it was explained to me. Is there something else you needed a clue-by-four to recognize? - tky From holden at salome.uchicago.edu Wed Jul 31 21:23:57 2002 From: holden at salome.uchicago.edu (Brad) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 23:23:57 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours In-Reply-To: <200208010349.g713nWBR011670@localhost.twcny.rr.com> (tyan@twcny.rr.com) References: <200208010349.g713nWBR011670@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <200208010423.g714NvR19437@salome.uchicago.edu> >From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) >Is there something else you needed a clue-by-four to recognize? I hate to tell you this, but Kiera and Sethra are the same person. Seriously, everytime I reread the Vlad books, I kick myself for missing all of the hints. You should see the welts. From ijamie at sympatico.ca Thu Aug 1 06:21:52 2002 From: ijamie at sympatico.ca (Ian sympatico) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 09:21:52 -0400 Subject: Spoilers for Issola Message-ID: <000d01c2395e$66606e60$c8815f41@idirect.com> Forgive me if some of these questions are repeated somewhere else, but I just finished reading Issola the other day and have not quite made it through all the spoiler e-mail yet. s p o i l e r s f o r I s s o l a Questions regarding Lady Teldra and Godslayer 1. Was Godslayer created whole in the first place? Or was it created as 'Spellbreaker' and combined with any Morganti weapon would become Godslayer? 2. If Godslayer was created whole originally, and since it seems every great weapon needs a trapped soul as a personality, what happened to the personality it had in the first place? 3. Vlad said in Issola that he did not get all the 'pieces' of Lady Teldra's soul when he was creating Godslayer. What are the implications of the missing 'pieces' to the personality of 'Lady Teldra'? 4. If 'Lady Teldra' is protection against magic, does it have to be drawn from its sheath or will it protect Vlad because it loves him no matter where it is? 5. Vlad cannot be located because of the phoenix stones he wears and 'Lady Teldra' will protect him from magic directly. What would protect Vlad from indirect magic, i.e. a levitating stone dropped on his head? 6. Will Cawti be jealous that Vlad in essence carries a lover ( albeit not physical, but who knows all the ins and outs of great weapons) in his back pocket? 7. Can 'Lady Teldra' be separated into its constituent parts, i.e. 'Spellbreaker' and a Morganti dagger, and what happpens to Lady Teldra's soul if this happens? 8. Did it matter what Morganti weapon was combined with Spellbreaker to create Godslayer? Did the dagger given to Vlad by the Jenoine have particular properties. They expected him to kill Verra with it, it may not have been an ordinary Morganti dagger! Unless the Jenoine knew Vlad could create Godslayer using Spellbreaker. But, if the Jenoine knew this, you think they would have made conditions a little better for the creation of the weapon, i.e. it needs a soul for a personality. 9. It also seems that Sethra knew what Spellbreaker was. Was she setting up the conditions necessary to create Godslayer? Just some musings Ian From scs at di.org Thu Aug 1 07:05:40 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 10:05:40 -0400 Subject: Spoilers for Issola Message-ID: <20020801140540.GA3527@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Presumably anyone who hasn't read Issola isn't reading this, given the Subject: line. I can take a few guesses, but the other Steve might give more, er, accurate answers. > 1. Was Godslayer created whole in the first place? Or was it created > as 'Spellbreaker' and combined with any Morganti weapon would become > Godslayer? One clue is Verras reaction to Spellbreaker. She doesn't recognize it before it reacts to her. When it does, she *still* doesn't seem to know what it is - although she recognizes it as threatening her and (I think) as an object of power. To me, this argues that *if* Godslayer had existed as a unit and was later disassembled, that Verra and the other gods had nothing to do with that disassembly. Otherwise she would have recognized the pieces. Conversely, the first Serioli that sees Spellbreaker knows exactly what it is and says it is 'not yet' a Great Weapon. If it had been one in the past, he probably would have said `not at the moment'. I base this opinion on the clear Serioli tendency to try and say *exactly* what they mean, in mind-numbing detail. > 3. Vlad said in Issola that he did not get all the 'pieces' of Lady > Teldra's soul when he was creating Godslayer. What are the implications > of the missing 'pieces' to the personality of 'Lady Teldra'? I believe this is what the author would call a `plot device'. :-) Should the plot of some future story require that Lady Teldra forget something she should have known, there's a convenient and reasonably plausible excuse. So long as it's not overdone, anyway. > 7. Can 'Lady Teldra' be separated into its constituent parts, i.e. > 'Spellbreaker' and a Morganti dagger, and what happpens to Lady > Teldra's soul if this happens? On purely personal grounds, I would like to think that Lady Teldras soul (since is it clearly not destroyed) would return entire to the Paths of the Dead for re-incarnation. > 8. Did it matter what Morganti weapon was combined with Spellbreaker > to create Godslayer? Did the dagger given to Vlad by the Jenoine have > particular properties. They expected him to kill Verra with it, it > may not have been an ordinary Morganti dagger! Unless the Jenoine > knew Vlad could create Godslayer using Spellbreaker. But, if the > Jenoine knew this, you think they would have made conditions a little > better for the creation of the weapon, i.e. it needs a soul for a > personality. I believe that not just *any* Morganti weapon was required. If memory serves (which means I'm too lazy to go find the reference) Vlad obtained Spellbreaker from a wizard who had a bunch of Morganti weapons stored with it. Presumably he'd been experimenting with reassembling Godslayer. On the other hand, it's possible that a consumed soul was also required and/or that the soul was *freshly* consumed. My guess is that the Jenoine saw Spellbreaker and assumed Vlad knew what he carried and could recombine them. This might argue that the Jenoine assisted the Serioli in designing and building the Great Weapons. > 9. It also seems that Sethra knew what Spellbreaker was. Was she > setting up the conditions necessary to create Godslayer? No. Sethra seems honestly shocked by what happened, but she immediately recognized the situation for what it was. She's rarely been afraid to tell Vlad after the fact that she knew something in advance. Taking those two together, I think Sethra was truely shocked at what occurred. -- ``If you're a software engineer, your basic building material is human intellect and your primary tool is *you*.'' -- Steve McConnell, `Code Complete', pg 755 From rachael at daedala.net Thu Aug 1 08:07:15 2002 From: rachael at daedala.net (Rachael Lininger) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 10:07:15 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Spoilers for Issola In-Reply-To: <20020801140540.GA3527@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: On Aug 1, Steve Simmons said: >> 3. Vlad said in Issola that he did not get all the 'pieces' of Lady >> Teldra's soul when he was creating Godslayer. What are the implications >> of the missing 'pieces' to the personality of 'Lady Teldra'? > >I believe this is what the author would call a `plot device'. :-) >Should the plot of some future story require that Lady Teldra forget >something she should have known, there's a convenient and reasonably >plausible excuse. So long as it's not overdone, anyway. The CYA method of series development! Rachael -- Rachael From the Dilbert Newsletter: Lininger "You should talk to her. rachael@ She is a minefield of information." daedala.net From ijamie at sympatico.ca Thu Aug 1 09:46:22 2002 From: ijamie at sympatico.ca (Ian sympatico) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 12:46:22 -0400 Subject: Spoilers for Issola References: <20020801140540.GA3527@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <000801c2397a$f82590c0$c8815f41@idirect.com> > > > 1. Was Godslayer created whole in the first place? Or was it created > > as 'Spellbreaker' and combined with any Morganti weapon would become > > Godslayer? > > One clue is Verras reaction to Spellbreaker. She doesn't recognize it > before it reacts to her. When it does, she *still* doesn't seem to > know what it is - although she recognizes it as threatening her and > (I think) as an object of power. > > To me, this argues that *if* Godslayer had existed as a unit and was > later disassembled, that Verra and the other gods had nothing to do > with that disassembly. Otherwise she would have recognized the pieces. > > Conversely, the first Serioli that sees Spellbreaker knows exactly > what it is and says it is 'not yet' a Great Weapon. If it had been > one in the past, he probably would have said `not at the moment'. I > base this opinion on the clear Serioli tendency to try and say *exactly* > what they mean, in mind-numbing detail. This raises a question. How do the Dragaerans know about Godslayer, if it has not existed whole up to this point? > I believe that not just *any* Morganti weapon was required. If memory > serves (which means I'm too lazy to go find the reference) Vlad obtained > Spellbreaker from a wizard who had a bunch of Morganti weapons stored > with it. Presumably he'd been experimenting with reassembling Godslayer. > On the other hand, it's possible that a consumed soul was also required > and/or that the soul was *freshly* consumed. Good point. It explains all the Morganti weapons on site when Vlad aquired Spellbreaker. Ian From kpadgett1 at cox.net Thu Aug 1 10:50:37 2002 From: kpadgett1 at cox.net (kpadgett1 at cox.net) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:50:37 -0400 Subject: Spoilers for Issola Message-ID: <20020801175039.SOTY29627.lakemtao01.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net> > Vlad obtained > Spellbreaker from a wizard who had a bunch of Morganti weapons stored > with it. Presumably he'd been experimenting with reassembling Godslayer. > On the other hand, it's possible that a consumed soul was also required > and/or that the soul was *freshly* consumed. Based on the fact that Loraan had both Spellbreaker and Aliera e'Kieron's soul, I wonder if he was trying to create "Lady Aliera." Ken From Gaertk at aol.com Thu Aug 1 13:11:44 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 16:11:44 -0400 Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours Message-ID: <546A206E.01820CC0.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Wed, 31 Jul 2002 10:49:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) writes: > When did you first become aware of the Overcast? No idea. I remember a whole bunch of things confusing me in _Jhereg_: the Interregnum, Cawti, "humans", etc. I think it took me half the book to figure out why it was funny for Loiosh to ask to eat the Teckla. >(Anyone care to speculate how long it has been around?) Quite a while. It was taken for granted before Adron's Disaster. > Is there something else you needed a clue-by-four to > recognize? The Sorceress in Green's secret ("what is the name of this book?"). I first read Lord of the Rings at a young age, and I remember my surprise near the end when I realised that Sauron and Saruman were not the same person. --KG From singram at videotron.ca Thu Aug 1 15:01:03 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 18:01:03 -0400 Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours References: <546A206E.01820CC0.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <0bbb01c239a6$ee1d09b0$17ecca18@ingram> > I first read Lord of the Rings at a young age, and I remember > my surprise near the end when I realised that Sauron and > Saruman were not the same person. > > --KG You too? -Scott Ingram From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Aug 1 15:01:16 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 18:01:16 -0400 Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours In-Reply-To: <0bbb01c239a6$ee1d09b0$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: <33EF7AF6-A59A-11D6-8560-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Thursday, August 1, 2002, at 06:01 PM, Scott Ingram wrote: >> I first read Lord of the Rings at a young age, and I remember >> my surprise near the end when I realised that Sauron and >> Saruman were not the same person. >> >> --KG > > You too? > > -Scott Ingram > Me three :) > ------ Chris Turkel,Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From cmt17 at cable-lynx.net Thu Aug 1 15:54:41 2002 From: cmt17 at cable-lynx.net (Craig) Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 16:54:41 -0600 Subject: Spoilers for Issola In-Reply-To: <000d01c2395e$66606e60$c8815f41@idirect.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020801164918.032a4b10@pop.cable-lynx.net> >5. Vlad cannot be located because of the phoenix stones he wears and 'Lady >Teldra' will protect him from magic directly. What would protect Vlad from >indirect magic, i.e. a levitating stone dropped on his head? I'm going to guess that advance warning from Loiosh is going to handle that one. I'm also wondering if Lady Teldra doesn't have some sort of extra protection she can use on behalf of Vlad in a similar way that Blackwand attacked the Jenoine when Morrolan was dead. >7. Can 'Lady Teldra' be separated into its constituent parts, i.e. >'Spellbreaker' and a Morganti dagger, and what happpens to Lady Teldra's >soul if this happens? I'm guessing that it can be destroyed again, however it was in the first place since I'm going with the theory that this isn't the first time that Godslayer has been fully assembled. And if it is destroyed I don't know, if there's enough of a soul left, it would probably go to the plane of waiting souls to wait to be reincarnated and if not, then it would just be lost without any kind of divine intervention. >Ian Craig From cmt17 at cable-lynx.net Thu Aug 1 16:07:23 2002 From: cmt17 at cable-lynx.net (Craig) Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 17:07:23 -0600 Subject: Spoilers for Issola In-Reply-To: <20020801140540.GA3527@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020801164616.00ce8b40@pop.cable-lynx.net> >To me, this argues that *if* Godslayer had existed as a unit and was >later disassembled, that Verra and the other gods had nothing to do >with that disassembly. Otherwise she would have recognized the pieces. Maybe it was done so long ago that she doesn't get jumpy anymore when she sees a gold chain and only reacted when she saw that the chain was hostile towards her. The process of destroying it might have flung the component parts away from whoever was trying to destroy it so that they'd know that they've destroyed Godslayer, but perhaps not know what form, if any, it was in after it got blasted. >Conversely, the first Serioli that sees Spellbreaker knows exactly >what it is and says it is 'not yet' a Great Weapon. If it had been >one in the past, he probably would have said `not at the moment'. I >base this opinion on the clear Serioli tendency to try and say *exactly* >what they mean, in mind-numbing detail. There is that, although you have to remember that it was translated into English (or whatever language they speak), and not native Serioli, so it's still a second language to them, although I don't believe they're as precise as you're giving them credit for. I'm with a previous poster in that Godslayer has existed before, or else how would people even know that there is something called Godslayer out there? Are the Serioli out there telling their kids about the boogeyman called Godslayer that will come and claim them all (and their little diety too) should they fail to eat all their vegetables? >My guess is that the Jenoine saw Spellbreaker and assumed Vlad knew >what he carried and could recombine them. This might argue that the >Jenoine assisted the Serioli in designing and building the Great Weapons. I'm not going with this since the Serioli have had as much reason to dislike the Jenoine since they're the ones who were at the root of these Dragaerans. Despite the enemy of my enemy is my friend stuff discussed in Issola, I can't see the Serioli wanting to get assistance from a race who just wants to become another set of masters over the world. >No. Sethra seems honestly shocked by what happened, but she immediately >recognized the situation for what it was. I'm in agreement there, she knew that Vlad had a powerful/useful artifact in Spellbreaker and would have brought along anyone else with useful equipment if they would have been handy. Craig From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Thu Aug 1 17:06:06 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 20:06:06 -0400 Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours References: <200208010349.g713nWBR011670@localhost.twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <3D49CCEE.20FD743A@earthlink.net> Thomas Yan wrote: > When did you first become aware of the Overcast? > > I think I had already read a handful of books and still managed not to > notice it until it was forcibly brought to my attention on RASFW. Of > course, *afterwards*, I saw that it had been mentioned or alluded to > in many places. What exactly do you mean by "become aware"? Maybe I'm not aware... Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Thu Aug 1 19:18:37 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 21:18:37 -0500 Subject: Spoilers for Issola References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020801164616.00ce8b40@pop.cable-lynx.net> Message-ID: <3D49EBFD.AB5271CF@attbi.com> I'm gonna go out on a limb here. I don't have any evidence--I don't think there *is* much evidence one way or another--but I don't think the weapon that can be called Godslayer did exist before. After all, there's such things as precognition and prophecy, aren't there? The Serioli that recognized that Spellbreaker was part of a great weapon-to-be may not have known when it would be completed, but he recognized what it was intended for. That is all that is necessary. I also find it difficult to believe that Verra, who has been watching Vlad fairly closely, did not know what Spellbreaker was. Just my $.02. Oh, yes, and about the shreds of Lady Teldra's soul. It says, if you re-read that passage, that Vlad stopped, and gathered all of them carefully in, and wove them in snugly. I don't think there's anything missing. Mia From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Fri Aug 2 11:13:14 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 13:13:14 -0500 Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gametech" To: "Jose Marquez" Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 1:12 PM Subject: Re: Overcast, clue-by-fours > Jose Marquez wrote: > > Thomas Yan wrote: > > > >> When did you first become aware of the Overcast? > >> > >> I think I had already read a handful of books and still managed not > >> to notice it until it was forcibly brought to my attention on RASFW. > >> Of course, *afterwards*, I saw that it had been mentioned or alluded > >> to in many places. > > > > What exactly do you mean by "become aware"? Maybe I'm not aware... > > > > > I believe that he is referring to the color of the sky over Dragaera (not > all of Dragaera just the area that is part of the empire more or less?) This > effect is created I believe from the greater sea of chos? I could be wrong > about that. Everything I can recall suggests that it is a reddish or orange > hue. I'd liken it to a red-orange sunset -- but all the time, well except > for night time but it only would make a little sense if it affected the > night sky as well just a little bit. > From mneme at io.com Fri Aug 2 12:19:21 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 14:19:21 -0500 Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15690.56121.888677.448060@hagbard.io.com> Gametech writes: > I believe that he is referring to the color of the sky over Dragaera (not > all of Dragaera just the area that is part of the empire more or less?) Isn't "Dragaera" the empire, not the whole world? Thus the citizens of said empire being referred to as "Dragaerans"... And yeah, Dragaera is faerieland; the land of perpetual twilight. I thought this was pretty clear throughout (hell, it becomes something to look for the moment the Dragaerans are referred to as "elves"), though I never thoguht of it as "Overcast", per se. I'm not sure what book Vlad mentions that he hasn't ever seen the stars, but... -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From adina at panix.com Fri Aug 2 14:01:07 2002 From: adina at panix.com (Adina Adler) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 17:01:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours In-Reply-To: <15690.56121.888677.448060@hagbard.io.com> (message from Joshua Kronengold on Fri, 2 Aug 2002 14:19:21 -0500) References: <15690.56121.888677.448060@hagbard.io.com> Message-ID: <200208022101.g72L17001118@panix1.panix.com> Joshua Kronengold wrote: > >Gametech writes: >> I believe that he is referring to the color of the sky over Dragaera (not >> all of Dragaera just the area that is part of the empire more or less?) > >Isn't "Dragaera" the empire, not the whole world? Thus the citizens >of said empire being referred to as "Dragaerans"... > >And yeah, Dragaera is faerieland; the land of perpetual twilight. I >thought this was pretty clear throughout (hell, it becomes something >to look for the moment the Dragaerans are referred to as "elves"), >though I never thoguht of it as "Overcast", per se. I never got the impression that it was a perpetual twilight, just that you could never see the sky. Which, to me, says "overcast". I think Vlad mentioned it in chapter where he goes off to get a Jhereg egg; something about being startled by the sky because of the different way it looked outside the Empire, despite having been there a couple of times before on trips with his grandfather. -- Adina From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Aug 2 14:52:25 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 17:52:25 -0400 Subject: Spoilers for Issola Message-ID: <3F733B40.07899761.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Thu, 1 Aug 2002 9:18:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, Mia McDavid writes: > I'm gonna go out on a limb here. ?I don't have any > evidence--I don't think there *is* much evidence one way or > another--but I don't think the weapon that can be called > Godslayer did exist before. ?After all, there's such things > as precognition and prophecy, aren't there? ?The Serioli > that recognized that Spellbreaker was part of a great > weapon-to-be may not have known when it would be completed, > but he recognized what it was intended for. ?That is all > that is necessary. But that Serioli aslo said that an attempt was made to destroy Godslayer [page 112 pb]. Why would he speak in the past tense if Godslayer has never been in one piece to date? --KG From tyan at twcny.rr.com Fri Aug 2 18:33:04 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: 02 Aug 2002 21:33:04 -0400 Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours In-Reply-To: <546A206E.01820CC0.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <546A206E.01820CC0.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: Gaertk at aol.com writes: > tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) writes: > > > When did you first become aware of the Overcast? > > No idea. I remember a whole bunch of things confusing me in > _Jhereg_: the Interregnum, Cawti, "humans", etc. I think it > took me half the book to figure out why it was funny for > Loiosh to ask to eat the Teckla. Er, you mean because jhereg eat teckla and carrion? > > Is there something else you needed a clue-by-four to > > recognize? > > The Sorceress in Green's secret ("what is the name of this > book?"). Yeah, I didn't realize that either. And I almost wrote to ask you what you meant. Rather, I started typing in, "What does your parenthetical remark mean? If it weren't for that, I would think I understood what you were referring to.", deleted it, and decided to amuse you all by putting it back in. > I first read Lord of the Rings at a young age, and I remember > my surprise near the end when I realised that Sauron and > Saruman were not the same person. Ok, I find that surprising, as I did when I learned my brother and a friend had trouble telling Michelle Pfeiffer and Uma Thurman apart in "Dangerous Liasons". - tky From scs at di.org Fri Aug 2 18:35:47 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 21:35:47 -0400 Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours Message-ID: <20020803013547.GA8208@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Thomas Yan writes: > Gaertk at aol.com writes: > > > . . . No idea. I remember a whole bunch of things confusing me in > > _Jhereg_: the Interregnum, Cawti, "humans", etc. I think it > > took me half the book to figure out why it was funny for > > Loiosh to ask to eat the Teckla. > > Er, you mean because jhereg eat teckla and carrion? I had the same reaction as gaertk -- when Loiosh asked if he could eat the teckla, I though he was referring to eating a Dragaerean. -- ``If you're a software engineer, your basic building material is human intellect and your primary tool is *you*.'' -- Steve McConnell, `Code Complete', pg 755 From davids at kithrup.com Fri Aug 2 18:54:08 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 18:54:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours In-Reply-To: <20020803013547.GA8208@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, Steve Simmons wrote: >Thomas Yan writes: > >> Gaertk at aol.com writes: >> >> > . . . No idea. I remember a whole bunch of things confusing me in >> > _Jhereg_: the Interregnum, Cawti, "humans", etc. I think it >> > took me half the book to figure out why it was funny for >> > Loiosh to ask to eat the Teckla. >> >> Er, you mean because jhereg eat teckla and carrion? > >I had the same reaction as gaertk -- when Loiosh asked if he could eat >the teckla, I though he was referring to eating a Dragaerean. But he was. Wasn't he? House Teckla are Dragaerans who are intimidated and exploited by House Jhereg, and teckla are small furry animals that jhereg eat. Usually you can tell them apart by the first letter being capitalized, sometimes you need to have the context. The humor arises from deliberately confusing the context. I mean, it's the same low humor that human males might get from talking about a girl named "Candy". Hur hur hur. From tyan at twcny.rr.com Fri Aug 2 18:57:20 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: 02 Aug 2002 21:57:20 -0400 Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Gametech" writes: > Jose Marquez wrote: > > Thomas Yan wrote: > > > >> When did you first become aware of the Overcast? > >> > >> I think I had already read a handful of books and still managed not > >> to notice it until it was forcibly brought to my attention on RASFW. > >> Of course, *afterwards*, I saw that it had been mentioned or alluded > >> to in many places. > > > > What exactly do you mean by "become aware"? Maybe I'm not aware... Someone mentioned "the Overcast" on RASFW, and I thought to myself, the *what*? Since you appear to understand what "the Overcast" refers to, you're already aware of it. I wasn't. Obviously, references to it in the book had gone in one ear and out the other. > I believe that he is referring to the color of the sky over Dragaera > (not all of Dragaera just the area that is part of the empire more > or less?) The sky is clear in Fenario. From my DbS notes: _Issola_, p119: -"[spoiler] sky like Fenarian sky: blue, with a sun/Furnace"-. _Taltos_ ch3, p36: [Vlad spent much time with Noish-pa] "tours of his memories of his homeland", "clear blue sky", "white puffy clouds", [bright] "sun" {typo? "Furnace"?}, "stars" {!}, _Brokedown Palace_ ch1, p8: "Overcast [in Vlad books]" = "The Hand of Faerie" {Overcast: related to mist = energy-conduit in _500 Years After_?}; p14: {Overcast = "Hand" again} ch9, p137: -"blue sky"- {no orange overcast!} I think it may also be clear over Elde Island (_Phoenix_). > This effect is created I believe from the greater sea of > [chaos]? I could be wrong about that. I don't think there's been anything explicit to confirm or deny that. > Everything I can recall suggests > that it is a reddish or orange hue. I'd liken it to a red-orange > sunset -- but all the time, well except for night time but it only > would make a little sense if it affected the night sky as well just > a little bit. That reminds me. In _The Phoenix Guards_, ch16, p159, Paarfi describes a character with -"brown hair, almost red beneath the natural orangish light of day"-. True, Paarfi is verbose, but -"natural orangish"- still strikes me as unusually redundant even for him. It also makes me wonder about their sources of light, some of which evidently are not "orangish". It's been a while -- what's candle light like? (I guess Earth's incandescent light bulbs are yellowish.) In another message, Joshua Kronengold wrote: > Gametech writes: > > I believe that he is referring to the color of the sky over Dragaera (not > > all of Dragaera just the area that is part of the empire more or less?) > > Isn't "Dragaera" the empire, not the whole world? The whole planet is apparently also called "Dragaera". (I try not to use "world" because I find it ambiguous.) > Thus the citizens > of said empire being referred to as "Dragaerans"... No, I think "Dragaerans" there refers to the race; I don't think we've ever seen "Dragaeran" used to mean "subject of the Dragaeran empire". Thus, inhabitants of Elde Island are Dragaerans, and empire-Dragaeran subjects who are Serioli or Easterner are never called Dragaerans. - tky From sraun at fireopal.org Fri Aug 2 19:21:18 2002 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 21:21:18 -0500 Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020803022118.GB27336@fireopal.org> On Fri, Aug 02, 2002 at 09:57:20PM -0400, Thomas Yan wrote: > "Gametech" writes: > > This effect is created I believe from the greater sea of > > [chaos]? I could be wrong about that. > > I don't think there's been anything explicit to confirm or deny > that. To the best of my recollection, there is nothing canonical. I have it >from a knowledgeable source (ran a character in the universe) that it's pollution - the overcast is some kind of byproduct of sorcery. So, it is, in a rather round-about way, from the Great Sea of Chaos. > > Everything I can recall suggests > > that it is a reddish or orange hue. I'd liken it to a red-orange > > sunset -- but all the time, well except for night time but it only > > would make a little sense if it affected the night sky as well just > > a little bit. > > That reminds me. > > In _The Phoenix Guards_, ch16, p159, Paarfi describes a character with > -"brown hair, almost red beneath the natural orangish light of day"-. > True, Paarfi is verbose, but -"natural orangish"- still strikes me as > unusually redundant even for him. It also makes me wonder about their > sources of light, some of which evidently are not "orangish". It's > been a while -- what's candle light like? Yellow-white flame. Definitely a different color from our ordinary sunlight. > (I guess Earth's incandescent light bulbs are yellowish.) What's the difference between some people's hair under bright noon-day sun, incandescent light bulb, cool blue flourescent, and warm orange flourescent? And how do you describe it? Personally, it makes perfect sense to me. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org From scs at di.org Fri Aug 2 19:50:46 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 22:50:46 -0400 Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours Message-ID: <20020803025046.GA9659@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Thomas Yan writes: > The sky is clear in Fenario. From my DbS notes . . . Some else mentioned that it's always twilight in Faerie. Before anyone starts speculating about weird orbital mechanics, etc, remember that Loiosh has flown *above the overcast* and reported there is a sun up there. Sorry, but I don't recall the exact book in which this occurred. -- ``If you're a software engineer, your basic building material is human intellect and your primary tool is *you*.'' -- Steve McConnell, `Code Complete', pg 755 From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Fri Aug 2 21:54:40 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 21:54:40 -0700 Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours In-Reply-To: <20020803022118.GB27336@fireopal.org> References: <20020803022118.GB27336@fireopal.org> Message-ID: <20020803045440.GA23034@ofb.net> On Fri, Aug 02, 2002 at 09:21:18PM -0500, Scott Raun wrote: > To the best of my recollection, there is nothing canonical. I have it > from a knowledgeable source (ran a character in the universe) that > it's pollution - the overcast is some kind of byproduct of sorcery. I always did think of it as something like smog, like LA at night. Well, when I didn't think it was Sethra's personal sunblock, which idea Steve shot down. Rocza flies through it a lot in _Athyra_, though, so it's not immediately toxic or anything. Out of curiosity, have people looked at my notes page? http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~phoenix/brust/notes.html Well, I'm being coy; I know some people have, and someone (Thomas? gaertk?) wrote a response, which I promtly ruined by changing the list numbers. But I thought it might stimulate more discussion. -xx- Damien X-) From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Fri Aug 2 23:02:26 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 02:02:26 -0400 Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours Message-ID: <3D4B71F2.9341C584@earthlink.net> Thomas Yan wrote: > "Gametech" writes: > > Jose Marquez wrote: > > > Thomas Yan wrote: > > > > > >> When did you first become aware of the Overcast? > > >> > > >> I think I had already read a handful of books and still managed not > > >> to notice it until it was forcibly brought to my attention on RASFW. > > >> Of course, *afterwards*, I saw that it had been mentioned or alluded > > >> to in many places. > > > > > > What exactly do you mean by "become aware"? Maybe I'm not aware... > > Someone mentioned "the Overcast" on RASFW, and I thought to myself, > the *what*? Since you appear to understand what "the Overcast" refers > to, you're already aware of it. I wasn't. Obviously, references to > it in the book had gone in one ear and out the other. Ah. Yes, I was aware of the Overcast, although I've always had trouble picturing it. Sometimes I see it as a perpetual orange haze, but I've never really thought about the source of it, which is what I thought you meant by being aware of the Overcast. I thought I had missed something incredibly obvious to everyone else, so I checked out RASFW. After going through a few messages, I found that the explanation I liked the most is that the Overcast is a by-product of magical energies expended. Magical pollution. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From slothman at amurgsval.org Fri Aug 2 23:38:27 2002 From: slothman at amurgsval.org (Max Rible) Date: 02 Aug 2002 23:38:27 -0700 Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours In-Reply-To: <3D4B71F2.9341C584@earthlink.net> References: <3D4B71F2.9341C584@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1028356708.1631.87.camel@diogenes> On Fri, 2002-08-02 at 23:02, Jose Marquez wrote: > Sometimes I see it as a perpetual orange haze > I found that the > explanation I liked the most is that the Overcast is a by-product of > magical energies expended. Magical pollution. The Overcast reminds me of the night sky above a densely packed city on a cloudy night-- glowing orange with reflected streetlights. (On such a night in my home in Sunnyvale, I can read by the skyglow.) I'm not sure if that's the exact color that's above Dragaera, but it seems suspiciously similar... -- %% Max Rible % slothman at amurgsval.org % www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %% %% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %% %% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." %% From FelixEisen at aol.com Sat Aug 3 08:19:06 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 11:19:06 EDT Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours Message-ID: <170.11913f9f.2a7d4e6a@aol.com> jhereg69 at earthlink.net writes: > the explanation I liked the most is that the Overcast is a by-product of > magical energies expended. Magical pollution. > > Jose Well, this -is- the official explanation -- not positive, but I think it's >from 'Dzurlord'. Let me pause for a moment to go check... Damn. Can't find it online, don't actually -have- the book... anyhow. IIRC, the quote from the Brust-written preface ran along the lines of '... caused by people using magic to take out the garbage for something like 100,000 years.' If that ain't an explanation, I don't know what is. ;) Knightmarshall Felix Surnamed Eisen, or "Iron Felix" Hand of Morr, The Order of Bones From Gaertk at aol.com Sat Aug 3 13:19:22 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 16:19:22 -0400 Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours Message-ID: <101CF36F.7924CA2D.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Fri, 2 Aug 2002 11:54:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, Damien Sullivan writes: > Out of curiosity, have people looked at my notes page? > http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~phoenix/brust/notes.html > > Well, I'm being coy; I know some people have, and someone > (Thomas? ?gaertk?) wrote a response, which I promtly ruined > by changing the list numbers. That was me, but it concerned your Girl Genius[1] notes. I did send you some comments on your Brust notes, but you didn't do anything in response (except fix a HTML typo). [1] Did you notice that the first collection is in stores? >?But I thought it might stimulate more discussion. Maybe it'd be better if you just post it on the list. Right now, people have to go to your link, then read your notes, *then* try to figure out a way to respond that's better than what I did to the GG notes. PS. I noticed you're not on the readalong list; but if you have some free time, you'll probably be interested in searching the archive for my "Notes:" posts and Thomas' DbS. PPS. A while ago Thomas was asking permission to quote folks here, and I noticed that searching Google for my email gets only one hit: http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~phoenix/brust/bp_verra.html --KG From kknolte at ecity.net Sat Aug 3 17:30:25 2002 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 18:30:25 -0600 Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours References: <170.11913f9f.2a7d4e6a@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D4C759C.52DE@ecity.net> FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: > Damn. Can't find it online, don't actually -have- the book... anyhow. IIRC, > the quote from the Brust-written preface ran along the lines of '... caused > by people using magic to take out the garbage for something like 100,000 > years.' If that ain't an explanation, I don't know what is. ;) >From my copy of Dzurlord... "There is an orange-red overcast that hangs over the Dragaeran Empire. Standing near the eastern border, there are, indeed, times when the overcast will break and you can see a blue sky, or a gray overcast, or white clouds, or a yellow sun, or bright stars. Other times, with a strong wind from the west, the Easterners will see orange-red instead of blue or gray or white." Which is kindof interesting - if the winds can move it, that implies its physical, and therefore it's being constantly renewed by Dragaeran sorcery - so was the sky blue during the Interegnum? "The overcast may, if you are so inclined, be considered pollution. It is the result of sorcerers casually using magic for war, pleasure, and taking out the garbage for something like two hundred thousand years." Which could be taken as meaning that there are no other effects beyond an overcast, so you can't blame the apparently rather low Dragaeran birthrate on magical pollution - although it could be interesting to see what happened if someone did think that, since Dragaerans probably like their sorcery even more than Americans like their SUVs. From mneme at io.com Sat Aug 3 22:30:17 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 00:30:17 -0500 Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours In-Reply-To: <200208022101.g72L17001118@panix1.panix.com> References: <15690.56121.888677.448060@hagbard.io.com> <200208022101.g72L17001118@panix1.panix.com> Message-ID: <15692.48105.121672.878466@hagbard.io.com> Adina Adler writes: >Joshua Kronengold wrote: >>And yeah, Dragaera is faerieland; the land of perpetual twilight. I >>thought this was pretty clear throughout (hell, it becomes something >>to look for the moment the Dragaerans are referred to as "elves"), >>though I never thoguht of it as "Overcast", per se. >I never got the impression that it was a perpetual twilight, just that >you could never see the sky. Well, it's always orange, day or night (except in the rare case where said orange clears, I guess). And that orange is apparently lit, and therefore visible, even in night. >Which, to me, says "overcast". That may be how the elves think about it. OTOH, Fenarians and other eastern realms probably think of it as perpetual twilight -- it's never as bright as full day, or as dark as full night, with that eerie orange glow all the time. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From mss2 at attbi.com Sun Aug 4 21:56:12 2002 From: mss2 at attbi.com (Michael S. Schiffer) Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 23:56:12 -0500 Subject: Spoilers for Issola In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020801164918.032a4b10@pop.cable-lynx.net> References: <000d01c2395e$66606e60$c8815f41@idirect.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020804235301.03ccb328@mail.attbi.com> At 04:54 PM 8/1/2002 -0600, Craig wrote: > >... >>7. Can 'Lady Teldra' be separated into its constituent parts, i.e. >>'Spellbreaker' and a Morganti dagger, and what happpens to Lady Teldra's >>soul if this happens? > >I'm guessing that it can be destroyed again, however it was in the first >place since I'm going with the theory that this isn't the first time that >Godslayer has been fully assembled. And if it is destroyed I don't know, >if there's enough of a soul left, it would probably go to the plane of >waiting souls to wait to be reincarnated and if not, then it would just be >lost without any kind of divine intervention. It's possible that being in the immediate vicinity of what are now again a sorcery-eating chain and a Morganti blade would not be healthy for the soul in question. Morganti blades can't normally destroy souls outside a body (stabbing a corpse doesn't destroy the soul, for example) but Teldra's soul is already *in* the blade. Get rid of whatever turns the three components into a Great Weapon, and the Morganti weapon may suddenly remember what it normally does with souls in close proximity. Mike From mtiller at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 5 07:23:59 2002 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 15:23:59 +0100 Subject: Next Vlad book? Message-ID: <000001c23c8b$bd7976d0$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> Hi All, Newbie question I'm sure, but is there a FAQ that discusses when the next Vlad book will be out? I've just reread Issola (again) and I can't wait for the next installment :-) Thanks in advance. Regards Mark Tiller From zizban at adelphia.net Mon Aug 5 07:32:27 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 10:32:27 -0400 Subject: Next Vlad book? In-Reply-To: <000001c23c8b$bd7976d0$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> Message-ID: <2A530FAD-A880-11D6-9C33-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Monday, August 5, 2002, at 10:23 AM, Mark Tiller wrote: > Hi All, > > Newbie question I'm sure, but is there a FAQ that discusses when the > next Vlad book will be out? I've just reread Issola (again) and I can't > wait for the next installment :-) > > Thanks in advance. > > Regards > > > Mark Tiller > > Considering that Steve just finished (and is revising) Viscount, it will be a while. There is no "official" FAQ. Just an unofficial one with two entries (I'll add a third right now): 1. Q: Does Steve still live in Minnesota? A: No, he moved to Las Vegas. He got sick of having to cross country ski to his mailbox. 2. Q: How many Vlad books will there be? A: 19. A first one, Taltos, one for each house and a last one, The Last Contract. This assumes that Steve doesn't get bored of the series, or dies first. 3: Q: When will the Vlad book be out? A: Steve's answer: "When it's ready". Steve just finished Viscount and still revising it so the next Vlad book will be a while. ------ Chris Turkel,Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From books at bofh.com Mon Aug 5 08:24:48 2002 From: books at bofh.com (books at bofh.com) Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 08:24:48 -0700 (MST) Subject: Next Vlad book? In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 05 Aug 2002 15:23:59 +0100" <000001c23c8b$bd7976d0$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> Message-ID: <01KKXKM5HSLG000U29@chud.net> >Newbie question I'm sure, but is there a FAQ that discusses when the >next Vlad book will be out? I've just reread Issola (again) and I can't >wait for the next installment :-) I just added the answer to my completely non-official FAQ, which at some time will probably be stolen to be the basis of the official FAQ at: http://www.bofh.com/books/brust-faq.html The answer is: There is currently no timeline for the next Vlad book, but Steve does have a contract for 2 more, so they'll probably be out eventually. The 3 volume sequel to FYA however is due to have it's first volume debut in November (last we heard). From casey at trinityhartford.org Mon Aug 5 08:44:29 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 11:44:29 -0400 Subject: Next Vlad book? In-Reply-To: <2A530FAD-A880-11D6-9C33-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: > 1. Q: Does Steve still live in Minnesota? > A: No, he moved to Las Vegas. Ya know, that fact pretty much single handedly increased the likelihood that I'll ever take a trip out to LV from nil to maybe. Then again, I don't much play poker, so ... Casey From zizban at adelphia.net Mon Aug 5 09:53:51 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 12:53:51 -0400 Subject: Next Vlad book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Monday, August 5, 2002, at 11:44 AM, Casey Rousseau wrote: >> 1. Q: Does Steve still live in Minnesota? >> A: No, he moved to Las Vegas. > > Ya know, that fact pretty much single handedly increased the likelihood > that > I'll ever take a trip out to LV from nil to maybe. Then again, I don't > much > play poker, so ... > > Casey > I've been there. pretty cool place. Lots of lights. > ------ Chris Turkel,Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From tyan at twcny.rr.com Mon Aug 5 11:36:20 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: 05 Aug 2002 14:36:20 -0400 Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours In-Reply-To: <15692.48105.121672.878466@hagbard.io.com> References: <15690.56121.888677.448060@hagbard.io.com> <200208022101.g72L17001118@panix1.panix.com> <15692.48105.121672.878466@hagbard.io.com> Message-ID: Joshua Kronengold writes: > Adina Adler writes: > >I never got the impression that it was a perpetual twilight, just that > >you could never see the sky. > > Well, it's always orange, day or night (except in the rare case where > said orange clears, I guess). And that orange is apparently lit, and > therefore visible, even in night. I also don't remember this. Could you remind me where this is said or implied? - tky From mneme at io.com Mon Aug 5 12:19:38 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 14:19:38 -0500 Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours In-Reply-To: References: <15690.56121.888677.448060@hagbard.io.com> <200208022101.g72L17001118@panix1.panix.com> <15692.48105.121672.878466@hagbard.io.com> Message-ID: <15694.53194.500039.351189@hagbard.io.com> Thomas Yan writes: >> Well, it's always orange, day or night (except in the rare case where >> said orange clears, I guess). And that orange is apparently lit, and >> therefore visible, even in night. >I also don't remember this. Could you remind me where this is said or >implied? Er...if the sky is always orange, it is, by definition, lit -- otherwise, it would be black at night. In any case, it's pretty subtle, since Vlad -knows- what the sky is supposed to look like in the Empire. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From RuhlenR at missouri.edu Mon Aug 5 12:33:06 2002 From: RuhlenR at missouri.edu (Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student)) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 14:33:06 -0500 Subject: clue-by-fours Message-ID: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E01245334@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> I totally missed at the end of _Orca_, I believe it was, that Vlad had a kid. My husband mentioned it and when I said "What are you talking about?" his reply was "Who did you think Vlad Norathar was then?" Vlad who? I know I read the whole book... Rachel From tyan at twcny.rr.com Mon Aug 5 12:55:21 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: 05 Aug 2002 15:55:21 -0400 Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours In-Reply-To: <15694.53194.500039.351189@hagbard.io.com> References: <15690.56121.888677.448060@hagbard.io.com> <200208022101.g72L17001118@panix1.panix.com> <15692.48105.121672.878466@hagbard.io.com> <15694.53194.500039.351189@hagbard.io.com> Message-ID: [Could you please leave in all attributions? They help me follow a discussion.] Joshua Kronengold writes: > Thomas Yan writes: > >> Well, it's always orange, day or night (except in the rare case where > >> said orange clears, I guess). And that orange is apparently lit, and > >> therefore visible, even in night. > >I also don't remember this. Could you remind me where this is said or > >implied? > > Er...if the sky is always orange, This is what I don't remember. > it is, by definition, lit -- > otherwise, it would be black at night. > > In any case, it's pretty subtle, since Vlad -knows- what the sky is > supposed to look like in the Empire. Sure, although he is also aware that it is different in other places. - tky From zizban at adelphia.net Mon Aug 5 13:14:08 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:14:08 -0400 Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Monday, August 5, 2002, at 02:36 PM, Thomas Yan wrote: > Joshua Kronengold writes: >> Adina Adler writes: >>> I never got the impression that it was a perpetual twilight, just that >>> you could never see the sky. >> >> Well, it's always orange, day or night (except in the rare case where >> said orange clears, I guess). And that orange is apparently lit, and >> therefore visible, even in night. > > I also don't remember this. Could you remind me where this is said or > implied? > > - tky > > I always imagined the overcast being like the color of the skies of Mars: pink salmon but a little denser. ------ Chris Turkel,Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From harrisonjeff at attbi.com Mon Aug 5 15:18:51 2002 From: harrisonjeff at attbi.com (Jeff Harrison) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 15:18:51 -0700 Subject: Next Vlad book? In-Reply-To: <2A530FAD-A880-11D6-9C33-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <000c01c23cce$140fbb20$6401a8c0@attbi.com> On Monday, August 5, 2002, at 10:23 AM, Mark Tiller wrote: > Hi All, > > Newbie question I'm sure, but is there a FAQ that discusses when the > next Vlad book will be out? I've just reread Issola (again) and I can't > wait for the next installment :-) > > Thanks in advance. > > Regards > > > Mark Tiller I thought the new Vlad book was Paths of the Dead...with some kind of milestone date passing this November???? Or is that just wishful thinking on my part? Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Chris Turkel [mailto:zizban at adelphia.net] Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 7:32 AM To: Mark Tiller Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Next Vlad book? > > Considering that Steve just finished (and is revising) Viscount, it will be a while. There is no "official" FAQ. Just an unofficial one with two entries (I'll add a third right now): 1. Q: Does Steve still live in Minnesota? A: No, he moved to Las Vegas. He got sick of having to cross country ski to his mailbox. 2. Q: How many Vlad books will there be? A: 19. A first one, Taltos, one for each house and a last one, The Last Contract. This assumes that Steve doesn't get bored of the series, or dies first. 3: Q: When will the Vlad book be out? A: Steve's answer: "When it's ready". Steve just finished Viscount and still revising it so the next Vlad book will be a while. ------ Chris Turkel,Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Aug 5 15:22:55 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 05 Aug 2002 17:22:55 -0500 Subject: Next Vlad book? In-Reply-To: <000c01c23cce$140fbb20$6401a8c0@attbi.com> References: <000c01c23cce$140fbb20$6401a8c0@attbi.com> Message-ID: "Jeff Harrison" writes: > On Monday, August 5, 2002, at 10:23 AM, Mark Tiller wrote: > > > Hi All, > > > > Newbie question I'm sure, but is there a FAQ that discusses when the > > next Vlad book will be out? I've just reread Issola (again) and I can't > > wait for the next installment :-) > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > Regards > > > > > > Mark Tiller > > I thought the new Vlad book was Paths of the Dead...with some kind of > milestone date passing this November???? Or is that just wishful thinking > on my part? That's a Dragaera book, but not a Vlad book. That is, it's a Paarfi book. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Mon Aug 5 15:49:33 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 17:49:33 -0500 Subject: Next Vlad book? References: <000c01c23cce$140fbb20$6401a8c0@attbi.com> Message-ID: <3D4F00FD.1D3841B8@attbi.com> Jeff wrote: >I thought the new Vlad book was Paths of the Dead...with some kind of milestone date passing this November???? Or is that just wishful thinking on my part? Jeff< No, Paths of the Dead is the next *Draghera* book; but it's not about Vlad. It's about the interregnum--I think it's another "historical novel" by Paarfi. If I have this right (It's been on here, but I don't always so good with the remembering), Paths of the Dead is the name of the upcoming *novel*, but it's the first part of a trilogy called Viscount of Adrilankh. HTH Mia From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Mon Aug 5 15:53:03 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 17:53:03 -0500 Subject: Spoilers for Issola References: <3F733B40.07899761.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D4F01CF.FEDFB6F7@attbi.com> Gartk said: > But that Serioli aslo said that an attempt was made to destroy Godslayer [page 112 pb]. Why would he speak in the past tense if Godslayer has never been in one piece to date? < Yes, but there was all kinds of "was and will be" doubletalk in there. An attempt (by the gods) was made to destroy Godslayer; but was Godslayer in the form of a Morganti dagger with a gold chain hilt at the time? Or, some other form altogether? Riddles, riddles . . . Mia From tyan at twcny.rr.com Mon Aug 5 15:58:00 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: 05 Aug 2002 18:58:00 -0400 Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours In-Reply-To: References: <15690.56121.888677.448060@hagbard.io.com> <200208022101.g72L17001118@panix1.panix.com> <15692.48105.121672.878466@hagbard.io.com> <15694.53194.500039.351189@hagbard.io.com> Message-ID: Thomas Yan writes: > Joshua Kronengold writes: > > Thomas Yan writes: > > >I also don't remember this. Could you remind me where this is said or > > >implied? > > > > Er...if the sky is always orange, > > This is what I don't remember. Hm. At the start of ch9 of _Teckla_, Vlad has stayed up all night: "When daylight began to filter down through the orange-red haze that Dragaerans think is a sky, I still wasn't feeling sleepy." I think this particular sentence is ambiguous regarding whether it means the sky is always orange...but perhaps this is, in part, because I don't clearly remember how [visible] / [well-lit] clouds are at night here on Earth. Hm. I don't remember one way or the other: Are there any moons? As I recall, Vlad doesn't seem to pay much attention to the stars, so who knows if that solar system has other planets that sometimes shine more brightly than stars. - tky From zizban at adelphia.net Mon Aug 5 16:26:58 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 19:26:58 -0400 Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Hm. I don't remember one way or the other: Are there any moons? > > As I recall, Vlad doesn't seem to pay much attention to the stars, so > who knows if that solar system has other planets that sometimes shine > more brightly than stars. > > - tky Tides have been mentioned, which infers the presence of a moon. Tides without a moon (with just a sun) would be very small, akin to those found on lakes. ------ Chris Turkel,Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From Gaertk at aol.com Mon Aug 5 16:34:31 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 19:34:31 -0400 Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours Message-ID: <7E994AAB.1D3C49F0.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Mon, 5 Aug 2002 5:58:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, Thomas Yan writes: > > Hm. ?At the start of ch9 of _Teckla_, Vlad has stayed up > all night: > > ? ?"When daylight began to filter down through the > orange-red haze?that Dragaerans think is a sky, I still > wasn't feeling sleepy." > > I think this particular sentence is ambiguous regarding > whether it means the sky is always orange...but perhaps > this is, in part, because I don't clearly remember how > [visible] / [well-lit] clouds are at night here on Earth. Since Vlad's living in a city, there's probably a good deal of light from street lights and night businesses; the "light pollution" amateur astronomers keep complaining about. > Hm. ?I don't remember one way or the other: Are there any > moons? I believe Vlad mentions tides in _Phoenix_, and that would pretty much guarantee a moon. > As I recall, Vlad doesn't seem to pay much attention to the > stars, so who knows if that solar system has other planets > that sometimes shine more brightly than stars. As far as we know, Vlad may never have *seen* the stars from this planet, except through Noish-pa's memories. He's seen stars in the Halls of Judgement (did he see stars in _Issola_?). Of course, he's made at least one trip East, so he may of seen stars then, but then again, maybe not. He didn't seem to stay there very long (he didn't improve his language skills). --KG From eshivak at netzero.net Mon Aug 5 18:54:59 2002 From: eshivak at netzero.net (eshivak) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 21:54:59 -0400 Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours In-Reply-To: <7E994AAB.1D3C49F0.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: He actually did mention "several" trips to the east in a conversation with Loiosh in Orca... something to the effect of where they were going to go next. L: "We could go east again, we've been there several times..." V: "Nah... Not again". I'm paraphrasing VERY loosely. -----Original Message----- From: Gaertk at aol.com [mailto:Gaertk at aol.com] Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 7:35 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Overcast, clue-by-fours In a message dated Mon, 5 Aug 2002 5:58:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, Thomas Yan writes: > > Hm. At the start of ch9 of _Teckla_, Vlad has stayed up > all night: > > "When daylight began to filter down through the > orange-red haze that Dragaerans think is a sky, I still > wasn't feeling sleepy." > > I think this particular sentence is ambiguous regarding > whether it means the sky is always orange...but perhaps > this is, in part, because I don't clearly remember how > [visible] / [well-lit] clouds are at night here on Earth. Since Vlad's living in a city, there's probably a good deal of light from street lights and night businesses; the "light pollution" amateur astronomers keep complaining about. > Hm. I don't remember one way or the other: Are there any > moons? I believe Vlad mentions tides in _Phoenix_, and that would pretty much guarantee a moon. > As I recall, Vlad doesn't seem to pay much attention to the > stars, so who knows if that solar system has other planets > that sometimes shine more brightly than stars. As far as we know, Vlad may never have *seen* the stars from this planet, except through Noish-pa's memories. He's seen stars in the Halls of Judgement (did he see stars in _Issola_?). Of course, he's made at least one trip East, so he may of seen stars then, but then again, maybe not. He didn't seem to stay there very long (he didn't improve his language skills). --KG ------------------------------------------- Introducing NetZero Long Distance Unlimited Long Distance only $29.95/ month! Sign Up Today! www.netzerolongdistance.com From tyan at twcny.rr.com Mon Aug 5 19:48:08 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: 05 Aug 2002 22:48:08 -0400 Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chris Turkel writes: > > > Hm. I don't remember one way or the other: Are there any moons? > > Tides have been mentioned, which infers the presence of a moon. Tides > without a moon (with just a sun) would be very small, akin to those > found on lakes. Good point. But here's a didactic grammar nitpick: [Tides imply] or [We can infer >from tides] the presence of a moon, but tides, presumably being non-sentient, do not infer anything at all. As my linguistics professor liked to say, quoting his advisor, "Linguists have more fun than people.". <-- Yeah, yeah, I know; I hate standard style guidelines for how quotes interact with punctuation because it can be [highly confusing] / [wrong] in technical settings, I so I usually use logical rather than stylistic formatting. - tky From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Mon Aug 5 20:14:22 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 22:14:22 -0500 Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours References: <15690.56121.888677.448060@hagbard.io.com> <200208022101.g72L17001118@panix1.panix.com> <15692.48105.121672.878466@hagbard.io.com> <15694.53194.500039.351189@hagbard.io.com> Message-ID: <3D4F3F0E.201D83FE@attbi.com> Thomas Yan said: > As I recall, Vlad doesn't seem to pay much attention to the stars, so who knows if that solar system has other planets that sometimes shine more brightly than stars. < Well, of course he doesn't. He can't see them--has never seen them. BTW, when Rocza flies through the Overcast in Athyra, she holds her breath. I don't know if the stuff's toxic, but she sure thinks it is. Vlad has only seen stars in paintings and in his Grandfather's memories. Mia From cmt17 at cable-lynx.net Mon Aug 5 20:24:09 2002 From: cmt17 at cable-lynx.net (Craig) Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 21:24:09 -0600 Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours In-Reply-To: <3D4F3F0E.201D83FE@attbi.com> References: <15690.56121.888677.448060@hagbard.io.com> <200208022101.g72L17001118@panix1.panix.com> <15692.48105.121672.878466@hagbard.io.com> <15694.53194.500039.351189@hagbard.io.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020805211912.00cd9260@pop.cable-lynx.net> >BTW, when Rocza flies through the Overcast in Athyra, she holds her >breath. I don't know if the stuff's toxic, but she sure thinks it is. Probably one of those things you only have to do once, like touching a stove burner when you're young. >Vlad has only seen stars in paintings and in his Grandfather's memories. > >Mia And on Greenaire, and when he was out east, and in the halls of judgement, and perhaps on one or two other instances I'm forgetting. Craig From lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com Mon Aug 5 21:59:06 2002 From: lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com (Lowki Liesmith) Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 00:59:06 -0400 Subject: Next Vlad book? Message-ID: about to weeks ago I asked the same question about the next vlad book and Brust said he had not even started it yet he was still working on the rest of Viscount of Adrilanka, which the first book is Paths of the Dead.followed by i believe it is the lord of castle black and the Enchantress of Dzur Mountain. I personally can't wait for the back history of Morralan and Sethera. I wonder who esle we will see a back history of. I hoping maybe Kragar, Daymar would be nice. and also the sword and dagger of the Jhereg. oh yeah, and a story about mario would be nice. >From: Mia McDavid >CC: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: Next Vlad book? >Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 17:49:33 -0500 > >Jeff wrote: > > > >I thought the new Vlad book was Paths of the Dead...with some kind of >milestone date passing this November???? Or is that just wishful >thinking >on my part? > >Jeff< > >No, Paths of the Dead is the next *Draghera* book; but it's not about >Vlad. It's about the interregnum--I think it's another "historical >novel" by Paarfi. If I have this right (It's been on here, but I don't >always so good with the remembering), Paths of the Dead is the name of >the upcoming *novel*, but it's the first part of a trilogy called >Viscount of Adrilankh. > >HTH > >Mia > _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com Mon Aug 5 22:03:15 2002 From: lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com (Lowki Liesmith) Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 01:03:15 -0400 Subject: Next Vlad book? Message-ID: about to weeks ago I asked the same question about the next vlad book and Brust said he had not even started it yet he was still working on the rest of Viscount of Adrilanka, which the first book is Paths of the Dead.followed by i believe it is the lord of castle black and the Enchantress of Dzur Mountain. I personally can't wait for the back history of Morralan and Sethera. I wonder who esle we will see a back history of. I hoping maybe Kragar, Daymar would be nice. and also the sword and dagger of the Jhereg. oh yeah, and a story about mario would be nice. >From: Mia McDavid >CC: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: Next Vlad book? >Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 17:49:33 -0500 > >Jeff wrote: > > > >I thought the new Vlad book was Paths of the Dead...with some kind of >milestone date passing this November???? Or is that just wishful >thinking >on my part? > >Jeff< > >No, Paths of the Dead is the next *Draghera* book; but it's not about >Vlad. It's about the interregnum--I think it's another "historical >novel" by Paarfi. If I have this right (It's been on here, but I don't >always so good with the remembering), Paths of the Dead is the name of >the upcoming *novel*, but it's the first part of a trilogy called >Viscount of Adrilankh. > >HTH > >Mia > _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From rsuitor at cjwrfs.net Mon Aug 5 21:12:38 2002 From: rsuitor at cjwrfs.net (Richard Suitor) Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 00:12:38 -0400 Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <81iuku0vqu5qnh5nf67lihmfq2vbntimcr@4ax.com> On Mon, 5 Aug 2002 19:26:58 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: >Tides have been mentioned, which infers the presence of a moon. Tides >without a moon (with just a sun) would be very small, akin to those >found on lakes. Actually, suns do reasonably well - ours has a significant effect. I believe the effects are proportional to the density times (r/R)^3 - since our sun and moon have approx. the same r/R from us, the density is the important factor, and our moon wins by over a factor of 2. Also, we have a large, close moon, compared to others in our solar system. But our sun has to be taken into account and is the reason for the difference in our tidal magnitudes throughout the month. So regardless of who's doing the inferring it is not clear that there is a moon. A need for a tidal schedule would imply a moon - purely solar tides should be the same each day. I haven't read Brokedown Palace. Presumably one can see the sky occasionally there. Was there any mention? Richard From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue Aug 6 08:29:56 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 08:29:56 -0700 Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours In-Reply-To: <3D4F3F0E.201D83FE@attbi.com> References: <15690.56121.888677.448060@hagbard.io.com> <200208022101.g72L17001118@panix1.panix.com> <15692.48105.121672.878466@hagbard.io.com> <15694.53194.500039.351189@hagbard.io.com> <3D4F3F0E.201D83FE@attbi.com> Message-ID: <20020806152956.GA30838@ofb.net> On Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 10:14:22PM -0500, Mia McDavid wrote: > BTW, when Rocza flies through the Overcast in Athyra, she holds her > breath. I don't know if the stuff's toxic, but she sure thinks it is. Doh. That's even in my own notes, but I hadn't remembered. -xx- Damien X-) From tysen2k at yahoo.com Tue Aug 6 13:01:58 2002 From: tysen2k at yahoo.com (Tysen Streib) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 13:01:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: weapons, games, and more Message-ID: <20020806200158.3956.qmail@web40008.mail.yahoo.com> I have a couple questions for Steve, if he would be so kind to share his vision: 1. We know that metal attracts magic, which is why there isn't anyone wearing heavy armor, etc. Why does everyone use swords and we rarely hear any mention of wooden weapons? 2. In _Dragon_ we see the first use of bows or crossbows, and Vlad has no idea what they are. Is there some honor thing that we don't understand that allows them to be used in warfare, but not on the streets? Also I remember in _Phoenix Guards_ (or 500YA) that a guard was shot with "a bolt" in the streets. So were bows/crossbows invented recently? Centuries ago? Is Vlad just ignorant? I like the setting created when there aren't any long-range weapons, it creates a more cloak-and-dagger type feel. But doesn't it seem like a crossbow is something Vlad would go for? 3. Is the game of S'yang stones based on a real game and do you have rules for it? I created my own dice game trying to match as many of the clues given in the books as possible. If you made up some rules, I'm just wondering how closely I came... 4. I know that Vlad doesn't understand Psychics that well, but are there any general principles that you can tell us? What CAN it do, what CAN'T it do, and so forth? 5. Is Elder Sorcery very different from normal Sorcery, or is it just mostly learning how to do it without the Orb? Thanks, Tysen ===== Outside of a dog, a deck of cards is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to play bridge. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From jedijane at yahoo.com Tue Aug 6 18:46:57 2002 From: jedijane at yahoo.com (Michelle Goepp) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 18:46:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Next Vlad book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020807014657.18760.qmail@web12303.mail.yahoo.com> --- Lowki Liesmith wrote: > by i believe it is the lord of castle black and the > Enchantress of Dzur > Mountain. I personally can't wait for the back > history of Morralan and > Sethera. I wonder who esle we will see a back General question: as much as I would LOVE/maim for/am anxiously awaiting Sethra's backstory...I somehow wonder if we're ever going to get it. Is it possible that "The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain" is actually the story of how Tazendra becomes a Lavode (or something confused for one, I wouldn't put it past Paarfi)? Just a horrid little thought... ===== Michelle "Black holes are where God divided by zero." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Wed Aug 7 06:12:45 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 09:12:45 -0400 Subject: weapons, games, and more References: <20020806200158.3956.qmail@web40008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3D511CCD.3DB0CF46@earthlink.net> Tysen Streib wrote: > I have a couple questions for Steve, if he would be so > kind to share his vision: > > 1. We know that metal attracts magic, which is why > there isn't anyone wearing heavy armor, etc. Why does > everyone use swords and we rarely hear any mention of > wooden weapons? I don't think it's a matter of metal attracting magic, I think that the Dragaeran battle mages would call lighting down on the assembled troops (in addition to all sorts of other nastiness), and wearing lots of heavy metal armor would make you an easier target. Metal swords are probably a danger also, but less so than all the metal in armor. Just don't point it at the sky when the mages are calling down the lightning. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Aug 7 14:32:24 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 14:32:24 -0700 Subject: weapons, games, and more In-Reply-To: <20020806200158.3956.qmail@web40008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020807142926.0318aec0@localhost> At 01:01 PM 8/6/2002 -0700, Tysen Streib wrote: >1. We know that metal attracts magic, which is why >there isn't anyone wearing heavy armor, etc. Why does >everyone use swords and we rarely hear any mention of >wooden weapons? Steel is more effective, and that amount of steel is a reasonable gamble. >2. In _Dragon_ we see the first use of bows or >crossbows, and Vlad has no idea what they are. Is >there some honor thing that we don't understand that >allows them to be used in warfare, but not on the >streets? The Dragaeran culture originated in a tropical rain forest, where bows are no effective. They are very slow to accept change. >3. Is the game of S'yang stones based on a real game >and do you have rules for it? Nope. >4. I know that Vlad doesn't understand Psychics that >well, but are there any general principles that you >can tell us? Nope. >5. Is Elder Sorcery very different from normal >Sorcery Yep. From zizban at adelphia.net Wed Aug 7 14:36:25 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 17:36:25 -0400 Subject: weapons, games, and more In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020807142926.0318aec0@localhost> Message-ID: On Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 05:32 PM, Steven Brust wrote: > At 01:01 PM 8/6/2002 -0700, Tysen Streib wrote: > >> 1. We know that metal attracts magic, which is why >> there isn't anyone wearing heavy armor, etc. Why does >> everyone use swords and we rarely hear any mention of >> wooden weapons? > > Steel is more effective, and that amount of steel is a reasonable > gamble. Besides, if you have all that steel around, why use wood? >> 2. In _Dragon_ we see the first use of bows or >> crossbows, and Vlad has no idea what they are. Is >> there some honor thing that we don't understand that >> allows them to be used in warfare, but not on the >> streets? > > The Dragaeran culture originated in a tropical rain forest, where bows > are no effective. They are very slow to accept change. That has to be the under statement of the year :) > > > >> 3. Is the game of S'yang stones based on a real game >> and do you have rules for it? > > Nope. > > >> 4. I know that Vlad doesn't understand Psychics that >> well, but are there any general principles that you >> can tell us? > > Nope. > >> 5. Is Elder Sorcery very different from normal >> Sorcery > > Yep. > > Can you be specific? > > ------ Chris Turkel,Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Aug 7 14:47:41 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 14:47:41 -0700 Subject: weapons, games, and more In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020807142926.0318aec0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020807144512.03161800@localhost> At 05:36 PM 8/7/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: >>>5. Is Elder Sorcery very different from normal >>>Sorcery >> >>Yep. >> >Can you be specific? I can, but I shan't. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Aug 7 14:53:29 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 14:53:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: weapons, games, and more Message-ID: <200208072153.g77LrJG05390@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > >>>5. Is Elder Sorcery very different from normal > >>>Sorcery > >> > >>Yep. > >> > >Can you be specific? > > I can, but I shan't. And would we REALLY want it any other way?!? Steve has dropped a few hints along the way, and I've a few speculations about it; but I'm far more interested in learning if I'm right by reading about it later. Let's the anticipation build to an engaging climax... ;) Chris "He is a lover of his country who rebukes and does not excuse its sins." - Frederick Douglass From zizban at adelphia.net Wed Aug 7 15:22:15 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 18:22:15 -0400 Subject: weapons, games, and more In-Reply-To: <200208072153.g77LrJG05390@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <20E37B28-AA54-11D6-B5B2-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Wednesday, August 7, 2002, at 05:53 PM, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: >>>>> 5. Is Elder Sorcery very different from normal >>>>> Sorcery >>>> >>>> Yep. >>>> >>> Can you be specific? >> >> I can, but I shan't. > > And would we REALLY want it any other way?!? > > Steve has dropped a few hints along the way, and I've > a few speculations about it; but I'm far more > interested in learning if I'm right by reading > about it later. Let's the anticipation build to > an engaging climax... ;) I didn't think he'd elaborate but what the heck, I was feeling "bold" today :) > > Chris > > "He is a lover of his country who rebukes and does > not excuse its sins." - Frederick Douglass > > > ------ Chris Turkel,Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From singram at videotron.ca Wed Aug 7 15:47:55 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 18:47:55 -0400 Subject: weapons, games, and more References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020807142926.0318aec0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020807144512.03161800@localhost> Message-ID: <017101c23e64$78e10620$17ecca18@ingram> Below is a response from Steve, regarding rules in magic. At 01:58 PM 6/7/2002 -0600, Anthony Tedjamulia wrote: > I've always been of the belief that magic must have a >set of rules for people to be able to write books about it, pass the >learning on to others, and master it. I believe that magic, in fiction, needs to be poetically precise and literarily elegant. -Steven Brust Honestly, I hope Steve reveals just enough about magic on Dragera to drive the plots and make the structure of his books interesting (see, _Taltos_). I'd really HATE to start seeing questions like: "In your last book Vlad had thrown two knives, had cast a 'energy blast' spell, and pulled a sword before his enemies reacted. Even assuming that Vlad had the maximum initiative role, the casting of the EB spell should take a full turn execute - how is it possible that he was able to execute what should have been 2 turns worth of action in one?" I mean really, that would suck. (Heh, sorry Chris, I know you weren't asking for that much detail.) -Scott ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Brust" To: "Chris Turkel" ; Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 5:47 PM Subject: Re: weapons, games, and more > At 05:36 PM 8/7/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: > > >>>5. Is Elder Sorcery very different from normal > >>>Sorcery > >> > >>Yep. > >> > >Can you be specific? > > I can, but I shan't. > > > > From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Aug 7 15:57:07 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 15:57:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: weapons, games, and more Message-ID: <200208072256.g77MuvG16507@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > I believe that magic, in fiction, needs to be poetically precise and > literarily elegant. I have to agree with this belief. Makes much sense... > Honestly, I hope Steve reveals just enough about magic on Dragera to drive > the plots and make the structure of his books interesting (see, _Taltos_). Yep. Gotta agree with this one as well. Too much information can ruin the mystique...:) > I'd really HATE to start seeing questions like: "In your last book Vlad had > thrown two knives, had cast a 'energy blast' spell, and pulled a sword > before his enemies reacted. Even assuming that Vlad had the maximum > initiative role, the casting of the EB spell should take a full turn > execute - how is it possible that he was able to execute what should have > been 2 turns worth of action in one?" > > I mean really, that would suck. (Heh, sorry Chris, I know you weren't > asking for that much detail.) Ewww!!! What a disgusting thought! And I actualy wasn't asking the question. Used to play in a larp where one of my favorite lines was "I don't want to know!" I'm quite pleased with being tossed little morsels and the occasional hint, thank you... Cheers! Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From zizban at adelphia.net Wed Aug 7 16:24:50 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 19:24:50 -0400 Subject: weapons, games, and more In-Reply-To: <017101c23e64$78e10620$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: > > I'd really HATE to start seeing questions like: "In your last book Vlad > had > thrown two knives, had cast a 'energy blast' spell, and pulled a sword > before his enemies reacted. Even assuming that Vlad had the maximum > initiative role, the casting of the EB spell should take a full turn > execute - how is it possible that he was able to execute what should > have > been 2 turns worth of action in one?" > > I mean really, that would suck. (Heh, sorry Chris, I know you weren't > asking for that much detail.) > > -Scott Ya that would suck. I was speaking in generalities; I don't want to know the specifics. From I what read what Steven writes here, he is the kind of writer that doesn't define everything about his world before writing. Some do (Lawrence Watt Evans). I personally like that; it leaves room for the imagination on both ends. ------ Chris Turkel,Guru, Dragaera Readalong List http://dragaera.info Buy my Book! www.xlibris.com/TheWorldattheEdgeofTime.html From nytemuse at auros.org Wed Aug 7 16:58:51 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 16:58:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Overcast Message-ID: Hiya, new to the list (a week or 2 now), and I think I may have missed something on the overcast/sky discussion...did someone say they thought the orange-red color was a result of the whole Interregnum or Adron's Disaster or something? Just curious if any resolution had been found on that one... ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From FelixEisen at aol.com Wed Aug 7 23:24:33 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 02:24:33 EDT Subject: S'yang Stones Message-ID: <9f.2b6ac434.2a8368a1@aol.com> tysen2k at yahoo.com writes: > 3. Is the game of S'yang stones based on a real game > and do you have rules for it? I created my own dice > game trying to match as many of the clues given in the > books as possible. If you made up some rules, I'm > just wondering how closely I came... S'yang Stones is, quite clearly, NOT a dice game. The closest thing it could be would be a cross between craps, marbles, and hopscotch. The game consists of each player having several (possibly as many as twenty, at my guess) stones, about half of which are flat, the other half of which are rounded (or just 'round', I'm not quite sure on that one). The object of the game seems to be trying to place your stones into scoring positions while knocking the other guy's stones OUT of scoring position. 'Scoring positions' are squares drawn onto the board, or perhaps slight concavities, considering that the round stones are also able to score, and you've a BITCH of a time scoring when the stone just rolls on off the end. The playing of the game seems to consist of two players plus the actual owner of the game; Vlad, as we see, far prefers to be the owner, as compared to a player. 'About three copper's worth.' The feel of S'yang Stones to me is a game of good-sized stones; silver-dollar sized for the flat ones, perhaps smaller than that for the round ones, I don't know. With that, you also have to have a good-sized table for the game, perhaps the size of a pool table or -- here's where the craps comes in -- a craps table. Why do I say that? Because Vlad, with Loiosh's egg, is 'bumped' into one such table. I don't recall the table moving much. Now, considering the Empire's approach to illegal gambling, owning a good table runs its own risks, since if the Guard decides to crack down, they're going to bust tables as well as heads; you're going to have to pay to get a new table made, and start working on earning the money you spent on it. Other than that, I'd guess the thing really isn't all that complicated. You could play the game in the dust in the street; you could play it on campaign (wherein Vlad considers going and fleecing all those poor soldiers of their pay, but thinks better on't). The table, then, clearly doesn't matter, nor are the stones overly burdensome to carry around. Just don't get into a game with a Jhereg. Knightmarshall Felix Surnamed Eisen, or "Iron Felix" Hand of Morr, The Order of Bones From kpadgett1 at cox.net Wed Aug 7 23:32:05 2002 From: kpadgett1 at cox.net (Ken Padgett) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 01:32:05 -0500 Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours References: <15690.56121.888677.448060@hagbard.io.com> <200208022101.g72L17001118@panix1.panix.com> <15692.48105.121672.878466@hagbard.io.com> <15694.53194.500039.351189@hagbard.io.com> <3D4F3F0E.201D83FE@attbi.com> <20020806152956.GA30838@ofb.net> Message-ID: <000f01c23ea5$535b1800$8f096644@kscable.com> I must have been holding my eyes just right on this re-read of Phoenix, but I just caught Steve's commentary on the publishing industry and it's hilarious. Starting on pg. 257 of Phoenix in The Book Of Taltos: "...eight or ten who keep it pretty well locked up." "There's a woman named Aisse. I wouldn't work with her though... She never seems to know quite what she's doing. And when she does, she never lets the musicians know. Word is she lies a lot, especially when she screws up." "D'rai keeps you working, but she'll also get a hold on you and try to keep everything you play sounding the same." "The best of the lot is an outfit run by three Easterners named Tomas, Oscar, and Ramon." I've figured out who the three I listed above are, but my question to others more observant than me is who are Phent ("...who doesn't lie quite as much, but he's about as incompetent and he charges twice what everyone else does.") and Greenbough ("He's not too bad when he isn't drunk.") It's finding stuff like this on the tenth re-read that is one of the things that makes these books so cool! Ken From mss2 at attbi.com Wed Aug 7 23:41:37 2002 From: mss2 at attbi.com (Michael S. Schiffer) Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 01:41:37 -0500 Subject: Overcast, clue-by-fours In-Reply-To: <000f01c23ea5$535b1800$8f096644@kscable.com> References: <15690.56121.888677.448060@hagbard.io.com> <200208022101.g72L17001118@panix1.panix.com> <15692.48105.121672.878466@hagbard.io.com> <15694.53194.500039.351189@hagbard.io.com> <3D4F3F0E.201D83FE@attbi.com> <20020806152956.GA30838@ofb.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020808013841.03c049d0@mail.attbi.com> At 01:32 AM 8/8/2002 -0500, Ken Padgett wrote: > >... >I've figured out who the three I listed above are, but my question to others >more observant than me is who are Phent ("...who doesn't lie quite as much, >but he's about as incompetent and he charges twice what everyone else >does.") and Greenbough ("He's not too bad when he isn't drunk.") Answered in , originally posted by David Goldfarb, excerpted below: *** ) ...is Brust poking fun at the SF publishing industry? And, if so, ) who are Phent and Greenbough? When Brust signed at The Other Change of Hobbit in early '92 I asked him about this. He said they were Minneapolis-area music promoters that he didn't like. It strikes me as somewhat cheating to mix media like that, but I don't get a vote. *** Mike From spenn at shaw.ca Tue Aug 13 16:08:07 2002 From: spenn at shaw.ca (Sean) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 16:08:07 -0700 Subject: new guy Message-ID: <002a01c2431e$496b64d0$883e5418@dontbenosy> Hey everyone - I'm pleased to be a new member of this group. I've read the first 145 posts, but I couldn't get the last group of 300. For some reason it just sends me the header list with no other attachments. Oh well. As way of introduction, I offer a tidbit that may not have been discussed (at least I haven't found it on any of the fan pages, but since I haven't read the last 300 posts I could very well be mistaken). On the topic of puns, real-world allusions and such, on pages 96-97 of Phoenix (paperback edition) Sticks is talking about people who connect musicians with inns needing musicians. The names he reels off are: Aisse - incompetent, liar Phent - less incompetent, lies less, charges 2x as much Greenbough - usually drunk D'Rai - gets a hold on the artist and homogenises his work Tomas, Oscar and Ramon - best of the bunch Now I think Steve is poking fun at some book publishers here Aisse = Ace Phent = ? Greenbough = ? D'Rai = Del Rey Tomas, Oscar and Ramon = TOR Any ideas for Greenbough and Phent? I'm thinking maybe record companies. From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Aug 13 16:11:20 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 19:11:20 -0400 Subject: new guy In-Reply-To: <002a01c2431e$496b64d0$883e5418@dontbenosy> Message-ID: On Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 07:08 PM, Sean wrote: > Hey everyone - I'm pleased to be a new member of this group. I've read > the first 145 posts, but I couldn't get the last group of 300. For > some reason it just sends me the header list with no other > attachments. Oh well. > > As way of introduction, I offer a tidbit that may not have been > discussed (at least I haven't found it on any of the fan pages, but > since I haven't read the last 300 posts I could very well be mistaken). > > On the topic of puns, real-world allusions and such, on pages 96-97 of > Phoenix (paperback edition) Sticks is talking about people who connect > musicians with inns needing musicians. The names he reels off are: > > Aisse - incompetent, liar > Phent - less incompetent, lies less, charges 2x as much > Greenbough - usually drunk > D'Rai - gets a hold on the artist and homogenises his work > Tomas, Oscar and Ramon - best of the bunch > > Now I think Steve is poking fun at some book publishers here > > Aisse = Ace > Phent = ? > Greenbough = ? > D'Rai = Del Rey > Tomas, Oscar and Ramon = TOR > > Any ideas for Greenbough and Phent? I'm thinking maybe record > companies. This was mentioned before. I believe Steve said that Phent and Greenbough were Minneapolis record promoters. From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Aug 13 16:14:19 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 13 Aug 2002 18:14:19 -0500 Subject: new guy In-Reply-To: <002a01c2431e$496b64d0$883e5418@dontbenosy> References: <002a01c2431e$496b64d0$883e5418@dontbenosy> Message-ID: Sean writes: > Hey everyone - I'm pleased to be a new member of this group. I've > read the first 145 posts, but I couldn't get the last group of 300. > For some reason it just sends me the header list with no other > attachments. Oh well. Maybe smaller groups? I'm not sure what the limit is supposed to be, or what the size limit on your ISP is either. Or try the web archive (start at dragaera.info, look for mailing lists and then the web archive for each of them). And welcome to the group! -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From attjen at gwu.edu Tue Aug 13 18:24:07 2002 From: attjen at gwu.edu (Matt Jennings) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 21:24:07 -0400 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain Message-ID: <3D5DC69F@webmailbackup> Hello All, This is also my first message to this group, and I wanted to see what everyone thinks of skzb's naming of part two of Viscount. (check out dreamcafe's weblog if you haven't heard) Originally it had been said (rumored?) that the titles would be The Paths of the Dead The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain The Lord of Castle Black So what do you all think of the new title "Sethra Lavode", and what speculation do you have for the "variety of reasons" skzb refers too (which he might correct or confuse if we come close to the mark)? My thoughts, - This would make a trio of "name" books for skzb. Taltos, Agyar, Sethra Lavode. We all should know (from Brokedown Palace, Sun Moon & Stars) what "taltos" means (even if you haven't heard of the Anne Rice book). Agyar if you've read it should be obvious, and Sethra is a ancient long dead mythical figure... who eats little... etc etc... - I actually like the original titles in that they were all "place" related, and wonder what the shift from "place" to "person" might mean as far as story goes... - I can't exactly remember the equivalent titles for Dumas' work, someone who knows off hand what the equivalent work is titled might see some parallels I don't.... - This new title might indicate that our loyal Tiassa and Sethra have nearly as close a connection as Sethra and Vlad... (remember Sethra did stay over one night in 500ya) ... um... otherstuff that I might think of during tomorrow's metro ride... MattJ "Forward in all directions." - 3m3 From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Aug 13 18:26:57 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 21:26:57 -0400 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: <3D5DC69F@webmailbackup> Message-ID: On Tuesday, August 13, 2002, at 09:24 PM, Matt Jennings wrote: > Hello All, > > This is also my first message to this group, and I wanted to see what > everyone > thinks of skzb's naming of part two of Viscount. (check out dreamcafe's > weblog > if you haven't heard) I am simply amazed he updated his web log twice on one day! I think Steve is the best source of info for this. Hello? Steve? From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Aug 13 18:29:21 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 13 Aug 2002 20:29:21 -0500 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: <3D5DC69F@webmailbackup> References: <3D5DC69F@webmailbackup> Message-ID: Matt Jennings writes: > Hello All, > > This is also my first message to this group, and I wanted to see what everyone > thinks of skzb's naming of part two of Viscount. (check out dreamcafe's weblog > if you haven't heard) Welcome to the group! > Originally it had been said (rumored?) that the titles would be > > The Paths of the Dead > The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain > The Lord of Castle Black > > So what do you all think of the new title "Sethra Lavode", and what > speculation do you have for the "variety of reasons" skzb refers too (which he > might correct or confuse if we come close to the mark)? I like the old title better. The three titles have a very nice parallel structure. Of course I don't know the reasons for the change; possibly there's an artistic reason I don't know about why it's a much better title. But I'm suspecting some kind of commercial reason. Which is fine; if it actually matters significantly commercially, that's a valid reason for that kind of title change. There are certainly levels of changes that I think one should resist pressure for, but this title change is very minor; I just have a personal preference for the old title. > My thoughts, > > - This would make a trio of "name" books for skzb. Taltos, Agyar, Sethra > Lavode. We all should know (from Brokedown Palace, Sun Moon & Stars) what > "taltos" means (even if you haven't heard of the Anne Rice book). Agyar if > you've read it should be obvious, and Sethra is a ancient long dead mythical > figure... who eats little... etc etc... > > - I actually like the original titles in that they were all "place" related, > and wonder what the shift from "place" to "person" might mean as far as story > goes... In fact two of them were people referred to by their place associations. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Aug 13 18:59:18 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 18:59:18 -0700 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: References: <3D5DC69F@webmailbackup> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020813185742.029832f0@localhost> At 09:26 PM 8/13/2002 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: >I think Steve is the best source of info for this. Hello? Steve? Patrick noticed that the production people were all having trouble pronouncing it, and looking embarrassed. He thought it would be a good idea to be a little more friendly to new readers. I agreed. Patrick has amazing instincts for this sort of thing--I need to have a very strong preference to dispute with him. From rsuitor at cjwrfs.net Tue Aug 13 19:35:39 2002 From: rsuitor at cjwrfs.net (Richard Suitor) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 22:35:39 -0400 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: <3D5DC69F@webmailbackup> References: <3D5DC69F@webmailbackup> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Aug 2002 21:24:07 -0400, Matt Jennings wrote: > >Originally it had been said (rumored?) that the titles would be > >The Paths of the Dead >The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain >The Lord of Castle Black > >So what do you all think of the new title "Sethra Lavode", and what >speculation do you have for the "variety of reasons" skzb refers too (which he >might correct or confuse if we come close to the mark)? Well, I can understand the pronunciation concern ;<). Parallelism has been mentioned - the former *structure* is parallel but the first refers to a place, the other two to people -- or whatever. But I *really* like the former trio. The structure parallelism is quite sufficient. The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain has a lot more mystery and romance than Sethra Lavode. If it is another Paarfi book, that's what you are doing. But if sales clerks can't spell it, are any going to be sold? Ecch. That's not my expertise or decision. But I like The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain a lot more. I suppose if you had to compromise you could have a subtitle Sethra Lavode: The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain Then the sales clerk just has to type Sethra. And the third one could be Morrolan: The Lord of Castle Black and since Zerika is *not* the Paths of the Dead, she just went there, you haven't lost your parallelism, you've just banged it up a bit. Richard From davids at kithrup.com Tue Aug 13 20:16:31 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 20:16:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Aug 2002, Richard Suitor wrote: > >But I like The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain a lot more. > >I suppose if you had to compromise you could have a subtitle > >Sethra Lavode: >The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain > I second the motion (what do you mean, it's not up for a vote?). And Paarfi could make some learned and/or snarky remarks about certain people having problems with pronouncing certain phonemes, and difficult words in other languages. Like, say, "Hwdf'rjaanci" or "b?lcsess?g", [1] for example. :-) [1] (or "bolcsesseg", if you have problems with accented characters) From scs at di.org Tue Aug 13 22:24:30 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 01:24:30 -0400 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain Message-ID: <20020814052430.GA8447@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Matt Jennings points out the name change. Well, for what my opinion is worth `Enchantress' sounds more Paarfi-ish. -- * Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has evolved from smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front of smart terminals. -- obs at burnout.demon.co.uk (obscurity) From spenn at shaw.ca Wed Aug 14 00:38:56 2002 From: spenn at shaw.ca (Sean) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 00:38:56 -0700 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain References: <20020814052430.GA8447@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <006201c24365$a56d5940$883e5418@dontbenosy> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Simmons" To: "Dragaera Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 10:24 PM Subject: Re: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain > Matt Jennings points out the name change. > > Well, for what my opinion is worth `Enchantress' sounds more Paarfi-ish. > -- > * Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has evolved from > smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front of > smart terminals. -- obs at burnout.demon.co.uk (obscurity) Who's going to have trouble pronouncing it? Not the returning book buyer. They're going to know how to spell it as well. Clerk: "Jhereg? How do you spell that?" or "Brust? How do you spell that?" or "Athyra..." ad nauseum New readers won't care if they can pronounce the title either. They're looking at the pretty picture and reading the back after they've picked it up. And I must agree that it seems more like Paarfi to use her legendary appellation rather then her given name, especially in a book title. Our marketing guys always assume the consumer is dumb too. (with apologies to any marketing folks on the list). From andrew at networkharmoni.com.au Wed Aug 14 00:57:11 2002 From: andrew at networkharmoni.com.au (Andrew Bailey) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:57:11 +0800 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain References: <20020814052430.GA8447@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <006201c24365$a56d5940$883e5418@dontbenosy> Message-ID: <3D5A0D57.50905@networkharmoni.com.au> Sean wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Simmons" > To: "Dragaera Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 10:24 PM > Subject: Re: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain > > > >>Matt Jennings points out the name change. >> >>Well, for what my opinion is worth `Enchantress' sounds more Paarfi-ish. >>-- >> * Progress (n.): The process through which Usenet has evolved from >> smart people in front of dumb terminals to dumb people in front of >> smart terminals. -- obs at burnout.demon.co.uk (obscurity) > > > Who's going to have trouble pronouncing it? Not the returning book buyer. > They're going to know how to spell it as well. > The sales clerk when being asked about new books, perhaps. Basically anything that helps Steve sell more books is a good thing:) Andrew. From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Aug 14 01:39:54 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 03:39:54 -0500 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: <3D5A0D57.50905@networkharmoni.com.au> References: <20020814052430.GA8447@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <006201c24365$a56d5940$883e5418@dontbenosy> <3D5A0D57.50905@networkharmoni.com.au> Message-ID: <20020814083954.GD26309@infodancer.org> On Wed, Aug 14, 2002 at 03:57:11PM +0800, Andrew Bailey wrote: >>Who's going to have trouble pronouncing it? Not the >>returning book buyer. >>They're going to know how to spell it as well. >The sales clerk when being asked about new books, perhaps. >Basically anything that helps Steve sell more books is a good >thing:) Not when it reduces their quality. Not that this is such a significant change, but "The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain" is IMHO clearly the better title. "Sethra Lavode" is harder to pronounce and spell, even. I mean, think about it... clueless reader sees one book with each title. Clueless reader A has NO idea who or what Sethra Lavode is, and ignores the book. A does, however, know what an "Enchantress" and "Mountain" are, and can make a reasonable guess that it's a fantasy novel about an enchantress who lives in, or comes from, a mountain. "Dzur" works just fine taken as a proper name, even unrecognized. Clueful reader B, however, will recognize both titles, and buy the book regardless of title. Thus, I don't really see anything gained by the new title. Anyone have any real idea what the clue percentage of SF novel buyers is? That is, of a given novel, what percentage sell to people with clue and what percentage sell to people who pick up the cover, say "Oooh, shiny!", and fail their saving throw vs marketing? -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Aug 14 02:22:16 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 02:22:16 -0700 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: <006201c24365$a56d5940$883e5418@dontbenosy> References: <20020814052430.GA8447@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814021625.02971b10@localhost> At 12:38 AM 8/14/2002 -0700, Sean wrote: >Our marketing guys always assume the consumer is dumb too. (with apologies >to any marketing folks on the list). The marketing guys didn't suggest the change. Patrick suggested the change. He's an editor, and someone in whose judgment I have a *lot* of faith. I agree--those who have been reading all of my books for twenty years will not have a problem. New readers might. And sales staff will, and that will have an effect on how hard they push it. Not a deliberate effect, but... "We also have the Enchantress of GH, DH, DZ...uh...a new Robert Jorden book." There are some things I think are vital, and that I will insist on. Other things are not important, and in those, I don't see any reason not to accept the advice of those I trust. Anyone who thinks Patrick Neilsen Hayden is lacking in integrety needs to get to know the individual. He has done more to promote and encourage *good* science fiction than just about anyone else I can think of. From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Wed Aug 14 03:27:18 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 05:27:18 -0500 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain References: <20020814052430.GA8447@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <006201c24365$a56d5940$883e5418@dontbenosy> <3D5A0D57.50905@networkharmoni.com.au> <20020814083954.GD26309@infodancer.org> Message-ID: > Anyone have any real idea what the clue percentage of SF novel > buyers is? That is, of a given novel, what percentage sell to > people with clue and what percentage sell to people who pick up > the cover, say "Oooh, shiny!", and fail their saving throw vs > marketing? Hey now saving throw vs marketing is like 15 on two six siders, they cheat. I like all the titles, and I may be a bit prejudice because I like Sethra's character a lot. So to me naming the books after her propper name and not her referenced title doesn't really do any harm if for no other reason than the first book somone reads from Steve happens to be 'Sethra Lavode'(and that spurns some intrigue like who is this sethra and why does she have a book named after her?!) Marketers have jobs becuase they help make a product sell better if they didn't they'd be out of a job. From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Wed Aug 14 03:33:32 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 05:33:32 -0500 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain References: <20020814052430.GA8447@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <006201c24365$a56d5940$883e5418@dontbenosy> <3D5A0D57.50905@networkharmoni.com.au> <20020814083954.GD26309@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Gametech wrote: >> Anyone have any real idea what the clue percentage of SF novel >> buyers is? That is, of a given novel, what percentage sell to >> people with clue and what percentage sell to people who pick up >> the cover, say "Oooh, shiny!", and fail their saving throw vs >> marketing? > > Hey now saving throw vs marketing is like 15 on two six siders, they > cheat. I like all the titles, and I may be a bit prejudice because I > like Sethra's character a lot. So to me naming the books after her > propper name and not her referenced title doesn't really do any harm > if for no other reason than the first book somone reads from Steve > happens to be 'Sethra Lavode'(and that spurns some intrigue like who > is this sethra and why does she have a book named after her?!) I hate it when I think I've read all of the mailing list replies and then, poof on last one is hanging offscreen, Steven Brust wrote: > At 12:38 AM 8/14/2002 -0700, Sean wrote: > >> Our marketing guys always assume the consumer is dumb too. (with >> apologies to any marketing folks on the list). > > The marketing guys didn't suggest the change. Patrick suggested the > change. He's an editor, and someone in whose judgment I have a *lot* > of faith. Okay then :) I'll neatly revise me statement, heh-hum from Marketers have jobs becuase they help make a product sell better if they didn't they'd be out of a job. to Editors have jobs becuase they help make a product sell better if they didn't they'd be out of a job. :) From casey at trinityhartford.org Wed Aug 14 06:26:03 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 09:26:03 -0400 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814021625.02971b10@localhost> Message-ID: Steven Brust wrote: > Patrick suggested the change. He's an editor, and someone in whose > judgment I have a *lot* of faith. You gotta go with it I guess, but do you have any proofs of a cover with the working title? I'd love to have one. > I agree--those who have been reading all of my books for twenty > years will not have a problem. New readers might. And sales staff > will, and that will have an effect on how hard they push it. Not a > deliberate effect, but... "We also have the Enchantress of GH, DH, > DZ...uh...a new Robert Jorden book." I can't remember the last time I asked a sales clerk for advice on what to buy, but I can see the point. OTOH, eventually there should be a _Dzur_, right? What are they going to do with that? What did they do with _Dzurlord_? > There are some things I think are vital, and that I will insist > on. Other things are not important, and in those, I don't see any > reason not to accept the advice of those I trust. This probably answers the question about _Dzur_. When will _The Paths of the Dead_ hit store shelves? From attjen at gwu.edu Wed Aug 14 07:16:28 2002 From: attjen at gwu.edu (Matt Jennings) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 10:16:28 -0400 Subject: Sethra vs. Enchantress (cont.) Message-ID: <3D5F7FBA@webmailbackup> first new comment: I took a couple seconds and looked this up about Dumas' Vicomte. The Vicomte de Bragelonne Louise de La Valliere The Man in the Iron Mask (and as I read somewhere before, occasionaly they will drop in a fourth book called "10 years after" somewhere in the middle of those three.) skzb's Viscount stands as Paths of the Dead Sethra Lavode The Lord of Castle Black taking for granted that Dumas probably didn't really intend for his Vicomte to be divided up into three titles, skzb is still running pretty parallel to how it is typically split. Out of curiousity, are the covers going to read "Viscount of Adrilankha: Paths of the Dead" etc? (in which case "Viscount of Adrilankha: Sethra Lavode: Enchantress of Dzur Mountain" would pretty much take up the whole cover) second new comment: It occured to me last night that it could just have easily been named "Sethra" vs "Sethra Lavode"... the leaving in of "Lavode" implies to me that Tazendra's becoming "gallant Lavode" carries some weight... last comment: The Lord of Castle Black is (imho) a great title. Hopefully it will stay. MattJ "Forward in all directions." - 3m3 From mam at theworld.com Wed Aug 14 08:25:30 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 11:25:30 -0400 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Aug 2002, David Silberstein wrote: #"b?lcsess?g", [1] for example. :-) # #[1] (or "bolcsesseg", if you have problems with accented characters) "B?lcses?g" / "Bolcseseg", actually, with single "s", as well as (as you have) umlaut on the "o", and acute accent on the second "e". http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/names.html#Wisdom -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From spenn at shaw.ca Wed Aug 14 08:54:32 2002 From: spenn at shaw.ca (Sean) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:54:32 -0700 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain References: <20020814052430.GA8447@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814021625.02971b10@localhost> Message-ID: <002c01c243aa$e1c17ad0$883e5418@dontbenosy> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Brust" To: "Sean" ; "Dragaera Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 2:22 AM Subject: Re: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain > At 12:38 AM 8/14/2002 -0700, Sean wrote: > > >Our marketing guys always assume the consumer is dumb too. (with apologies > >to any marketing folks on the list). > > The marketing guys didn't suggest the change. Patrick suggested the > change. He's an editor, and someone in whose judgment I have a *lot* of faith. > snip > > There are some things I think are vital, and that I will insist on. Other > things are not important, and in those, I don't see any reason not to > accept the advice of those I trust. > > Anyone who thinks Patrick Neilsen Hayden is lacking in integrety needs to > get to know the individual. He has done more to promote and encourage > *good* science fiction than just about anyone else I can think of. Not being as down with the Brust real-world mythos as I obviously should have been, I'm going to have to back-pedal madly here, duck a nod towards Patrick, and say something smarmy. Nothing intelligable comes out because there's a size 11 in the way... Oh well. From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Aug 14 09:02:06 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 11:02:06 -0500 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814021625.02971b10@localhost> References: <20020814052430.GA8447@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814021625.02971b10@localhost> Message-ID: <20020814160206.GA30378@infodancer.org> On Wed, Aug 14, 2002 at 02:22:16AM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: > There are some things I think are vital, and that I will insist on. Other > things are not important, and in those, I don't see any reason not to > accept the advice of those I trust. > > Anyone who thinks Patrick Neilsen Hayden is lacking in integrety needs to > get to know the individual. He has done more to promote and encourage > *good* science fiction than just about anyone else I can think of. Amid the sound of frantic backpedalling elsewhere, I'd like to add that I can disagree with pnh without questioning his integrity, as I do in this case (disagree, that is). Certainly the man has done a great deal for the genre, and that is much appreciated. I can't say that he's wrong in this case, either. But I still disagree with the change. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From l3iol2iot at hotmail.com Wed Aug 14 09:20:29 2002 From: l3iol2iot at hotmail.com (Chuck Evans) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:20:29 -0400 Subject: Sethra vs. Enchantress (cont.) Message-ID: >The Lord of Castle Black is (imho) a great title. Hopefully it will >stay. > >MattJ > >"Forward in all directions." - 3m3 I don't know, some people may have trouble spelling 'Castle' (Casel, Castel, Kassel, etc.)... Seems kind of silly to me. If they were going to search for the book why would they have to be able to pronounce Dzur? Couldn't the person inquiring simply spell it for them? Or even, just, leave out Dzur; with the words Enchantress and Mountain I would think that anyone would be able to locate the book with hardly any difficulty. I dunno, I suppose thats why I'm not either an editor or a sales...person... I know, shh, sorry. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From usagigoya at hotmail.com Wed Aug 14 11:09:34 2002 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 18:09:34 +0000 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain Message-ID: I was unaware of this title change until reading the various postings about it...personnally, I prefer the original title, but I know I'll still buy the book no matter what the title on the cover... Amazon will love the title change though, they are still trying to get people to special order the so-called out-of-print book "Nor Even Death Destroy" by Glen Cook, the name being the working title / originally planned title for his book "Tower of Fear". Something about Tor Books, they love to change titles prior to publication... Seems that "Paths of the Dead" was originally listed as part of the title for "Taltos" or was that just the U.K. edition? Steve P.S. for SKZB - have you found any of those Zelazny short stories yet? If not, I can send you a print-out of them, care of your hotel or whatever... >From: Steven Brust >To: Sean , Dragaera Mailing List >Subject: Re: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain >Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 02:22:16 -0700 > >At 12:38 AM 8/14/2002 -0700, Sean wrote: > >>Our marketing guys always assume the consumer is dumb too. (with >>apologies >>to any marketing folks on the list). > >The marketing guys didn't suggest the change. Patrick suggested the >change. He's an editor, and someone in whose judgment I have a *lot* of >faith. > >I agree--those who have been reading all of my books for twenty years will >not have a problem. New readers might. And sales staff will, and that >will have an effect on how hard they push it. Not a deliberate effect, >but... "We also have the Enchantress of GH, DH, DZ...uh...a new Robert >Jorden book." > >There are some things I think are vital, and that I will insist on. Other >things are not important, and in those, I don't see any reason not to >accept the advice of those I trust. > >Anyone who thinks Patrick Neilsen Hayden is lacking in integrety needs to >get to know the individual. He has done more to promote and encourage >*good* science fiction than just about anyone else I can think of. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From casey at trinityhartford.org Wed Aug 14 11:14:48 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 14:14:48 -0400 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Steve Hubbell wrote: > I was unaware of this title change until reading the various > postings about it... Steve's weblog note from yesterday. Don't feel too bad. Breaking news. http://www.dreamcafe.com/weblog.cgi From davids at kithrup.com Wed Aug 14 11:14:52 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 11:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Tue, 13 Aug 2002, David Silberstein wrote: > >#"b?lcsess?g", [1] for example. :-) ># >#[1] (or "bolcsesseg", if you have problems with accented characters) > >"B?lcses?g" / "Bolcseseg", actually, with single "s", as well as (as you >have) umlaut on the "o", and acute accent on the second "e". > >http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/names.html#Wisdom > It may be spelled that way in "Brokedown Palace", but every Hungarian dictionary I've checked, online and off, as well as a native Hungarian speaker, confirms that "wisdom" is spelled "b?lcsess?g" in Hungarian. Dueling URLs... http://consulting.medios.fi/dictionary/?language=en&search=wisdom&allow=false (this site is useful for researching other Hungarian terms that Steve uses, e.g., http://consulting.medios.fi/dictionary/?language=hu&search=agyar ) http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=a93l98$nf5$1 at mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU (this was an interesting thread with all sorts of fun speculation (and facts) about what various words mean; you might want to check it out) From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Aug 14 11:29:53 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 11:29:53 -0700 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814021625.02971b10@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814112731.02a36160@localhost> At 09:26 AM 8/14/2002 -0400, Casey Rousseau wrote: >Steven Brust wrote: > > Patrick suggested the change. He's an editor, and someone in whose > > judgment I have a *lot* of faith. > >You gotta go with it I guess, but do you have any proofs of a cover >with the working title? I'd love to have one. > No, it hasn't gotten that far yet. > > I agree--those who have been reading all of my books for twenty > > years will not have a problem. New readers might. And sales staff > > will, and that will have an effect on how hard they push it. Not a > > deliberate effect, but... "We also have the Enchantress of GH, DH, > > DZ...uh...a new Robert Jorden book." > >I can't remember the last time I asked a sales clerk for advice on >what to buy, but I can see the point. No, no, no. I don't mean the sales staff that sells you a book at your local bookstore, I mean the sales staff that sells several boxes to the jobbers, or a truckload to the chains. > OTOH, eventually there should >be a _Dzur_, right? What are they going to do with that? I don't know. I'll burn that bridge behind me when I come to it. > What did >they do with _Dzurlord_? It never existed. I'm in denial about that one. >When will _The Paths of the Dead_ hit store shelves? November, I believe. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Aug 14 11:33:14 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 11:33:14 -0700 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814113206.029eab80@localhost> At 06:09 PM 8/14/2002 +0000, Steve Hubbell wrote: > Seems that "Paths of the Dead" was originally listed as part of the > title for "Taltos" or was that just the U.K. edition? Yes, that is the U.K. edition is called. That's the one with the Hitler Youth on the cover. >Steve >P.S. for SKZB - have you found any of those Zelazny short stories yet? If >not, I can send you a print-out of them, care of your hotel or whatever... Oh, man! That would rock! From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Aug 14 11:38:50 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 11:38:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain Message-ID: <200208141838.g7EIcbo18073@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > >I can't remember the last time I asked a sales clerk for advice on > >what to buy, but I can see the point. Ah, now. Where have you been shopping? There are a few stores around here (Bay Area, CA) whose employee's I would trust to give me good advice on books to read. Granted, none of them are chain-stores, but... :) > > OTOH, eventually there should > >be a _Dzur_, right? What are they going to do with that? > > I don't know. I'll burn that bridge behind me when I come to it. I doubt it would be a problem. He's already had Jhereg, Taltos, Athyra, Agyar... Dzur shouldn't be a problem as a stand-alone, at any rate. > > What did > >they do with _Dzurlord_? > > It never existed. I'm in denial about that one. Isn't that a river in Africa somewhere? > >When will _The Paths of the Dead_ hit store shelves? > > November, I believe. November?!? Oh, fine. It'll just give me more time to practice my patience... ;) Chris "You will be required to do wrong no matter where you go. It is the basic condition of life, to be required to violate your own identity. At some time, every creature which lives must do so. It is the ultimate shadow, the defeat of creation; this is the curse at work, the curse that feeds on all life. Everywhere in the universe." - "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" - Philip K. Dick From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Aug 14 11:40:34 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 11:40:34 -0700 Subject: Sethra vs. Enchantress (cont.) In-Reply-To: <3D5F7FBA@webmailbackup> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814113620.029e9920@localhost> At 10:16 AM 8/14/2002 -0400, Matt Jennings wrote: >first new comment: > >I took a couple seconds and looked this up about Dumas' Vicomte. > >The Vicomte de Bragelonne >Louise de La Valliere >The Man in the Iron Mask My edition (Little, Brown & Co., 1887) has them in 9 volumes -- 10 Years Later Raul De Bragalonne Vol 1 and 2 Louisa de la Valliere Vol 1 and 2 The Man in the Iron Mask Vol 1 and 2 Fortunes of d'Artagnon Vol 1 and 2 >Out of curiousity, are the covers going to read "Viscount of Adrilankha: >Paths >of the Dead" etc? (in which case "Viscount of Adrilankha: Sethra Lavode: >Enchantress of Dzur Mountain" would pretty much take up the whole cover) I'm not sure exactly. I should probably try to drag Patrick onto this list. >last comment: > >The Lord of Castle Black is (imho) a great title. Hopefully it will stay. Seems like it so far. Glad you like it. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Aug 14 13:46:40 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:46:40 -0700 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814112731.02a36160@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814133016.00a8c3c0@localhost> At 04:04 PM 8/14/2002 -0400, Casey Rousseau wrote: >SKZB replied to my questions: > > >I can't remember the last time I asked a sales clerk for advice on > > >what to buy, but I can see the point. > > > > No, no, no. I don't mean the sales staff that sells you a book at your > > local bookstore, I mean the sales staff that sells several boxes to the > > jobbers, or a truckload to the chains. > >The light dawneth. Of course! I suppose though this would be smaller >audience that would be easier to give a pronunciation guide to, you really >don't want to have to do so. Patrick is undoubtedly right. I'm trying to figure out why I've been so sensitive about this. The notion that I might make an artistic compromise for commercial reasons irritates me enough that I have to wonder if there is something I haven't been admitting to myself. Well, if so, I still haven't admitted it to myself. The other thing, though, is that there seems to be some sort of preconception of "Big Narsty Publisher forcing Poor Artist to change work in line with commercial requirements." Certainly this happens--in fact, forms of it starting happening right about the time art was invented. But it isn't that simple, and it isn't always the case. The reason I'm so happy with Tor is because the people I work with there actually care about books--all the way from Tom Doherty to the publicity people--as far as I can tell, this is probably even true of the sales staff. Now, as Patrick was working with production, he happened to observe that some of the production people were having a bit of trouble with the name of that book--they stumbled over it, and then became embarrassed. One of the little things that makes a book work is the enthusiasm of the production staff (those who lay out the type, make the cover right, dot the "t"s and cross the "i"s. Patrick concluded that this little bit of embarrassment might have a tiny effect on how everything came down. Also, it might have a tiny effect on those who would go forth to see how many books got into the hands of those who, so far, have never heard from me. He said, "Consider a new title. If you think it important, we'll stay with the one it has, but this is worth thinking about." I thought about it, and decided to change it, because it struck that me that losing a tinge of Paarfi-ism (and I agree with those who say the original title is more Paarfi-like) was a reasonable trade-off for making production people a little happier, and maybe making the sales people a tich more enthusiastic. Okay, that was my choice, good or bad, artist or hack. But to then hear stuff that I took as, "the publisher" (i.e., my friend Patrick) sacrificing artistic integrity for evil marketing considerations annoyed me, and I got rather more irritated about it than I should have, under the circumstances. For that, I apologize. >Looking forward to an early Christmas present. Any chance you know when B&T >will start taking preorders? No, sorry. In other news, the Official Title for the three volume novel is-- (drum roll) _The Miscreant of Cowabunga_ From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Aug 14 14:07:05 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 14:07:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain Message-ID: <200208142106.g7EL6qo12755@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > I'm trying to figure out why I've been so sensitive about this. The notion > that I might make an artistic compromise for commercial reasons irritates > me enough that I have to wonder if there is something I haven't been > admitting to myself. Well, if so, I still haven't admitted it to myself. Tehe... Yeah. Steven Brust is just another commercial hack. I mean, can't you tell with his interesting writing style and breaking-the-mold originality? Sorry, just can't see it. I wouldn't worry about compromising your artistic merit. It just does NOT look like it's going to happen anytime soon (and doubtful anyway, but we must have the caveat...:) > The reason I'm so happy with Tor is because the people I work with there > actually care about books--all the way from Tom Doherty to the publicity > people--as far as I can tell, this is probably even true of the sales staff. >From everything I've read about Tor, they seem an excellent publisher. > He said, > "Consider a new title. If you think it important, we'll stay with the one > it has, but this is worth thinking about." I thought about it, and decided > to change it, because it struck that me that losing a tinge of Paarfi-ism > (and I agree with those who say the original title is more Paarfi-like) was > a reasonable trade-off for making production people a little happier, and > maybe making the sales people a tich more enthusiastic. I don't see the change as being so major. Yes, the original title was more... interesting, more so for people who've followed the books in the Dragaera world, but I see it as: If you've a chance to gain more readers, new people who will pick up a book and then delve into all the others, the change is for the better. > Okay, that was my choice, good or bad, artist or hack. Besides, it's almost a moot point. It would be near-impossible to judge what degree a changing of title would make. And choices are good, anyway. Gives the chance to grow, and all... > In other news, the Official Title for the three volume novel is-- > > (drum roll) > > _The Miscreant of Cowabunga_ Woohoo!! Where is Cowabunga, anyway? Is that out East? :) Chris From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Wed Aug 14 17:11:00 2002 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 17:11:00 -0700 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain Message-ID: <200208141711.AA153551190@amish2000.com> >In other news, the Official Title for the three volume novel is-- > >(drum roll) > > >_The Miscreant of Cowabunga_ .... _gosh_. *wistfully* Hearing "cowabunga" pass from behind Khaavren's teeth, preferably when introducing himself to someone like dear little twerp Morrolan, would make me weep with joy. ~ MJ ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ ~ A Pirate Looks At Twenty ~ http://erythros.livejournal.com/ ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ ________________________________________________________________ Get your own evilemail.com address at http://www.evilemail.com From mtiller at ntlworld.com Wed Aug 14 14:15:26 2002 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 22:15:26 +0100 Subject: A simple...I think question In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814113620.029e9920@localhost> Message-ID: <000001c243d7$b5d4ffa0$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> Dear All, I'm sure that someone may have already asked this, but exactly how are you supposed to pronounce Dzur? Regards Mark From zizban at adelphia.net Wed Aug 14 14:23:11 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 17:23:11 -0400 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814133016.00a8c3c0@localhost> Message-ID: <08DC1330-AFCC-11D6-A27A-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 04:46 PM, Steven Brust wrote: > > In other news, the Official Title for the three volume novel is-- > > (drum roll) > > > _The Miscreant of Cowabunga_ > Wow, that ought to many copies? Is that some obscure Fenario reference? :-) From scs at di.org Wed Aug 14 14:54:02 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 17:54:02 -0400 Subject: On Paarfi and his translators Message-ID: <20020814215402.GA23387@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Steve Brust wrote: > My edition (Little, Brown & Co., 1887) has them in 9 volumes -- > 10 Years Later > Raul De Bragalonne Vol 1 and 2 > Louisa de la Valliere Vol 1 and 2 > The Man in the Iron Mask Vol 1 and 2 > Fortunes of d'Artagnon Vol 1 and 2 Some years back one of your publishers reprinted 'The Three Musketeers' in what was supposedly your favored translation. TTM had left me cold in high school and one or two attempts afterwards, but since I'd enjoyed Paarfi and his language, I gave it a shot. It was great fun, primarily because the language finally clicked for me. Thinking it was just all those years of personal development since high school, I picked up a translation of 'Twenty Years After' -- and bombed. So I have two questions, really. Do the other Little/Brown editions you have seem to be by the same translator, and does Tor have any interest in doing the rest of them? Advanced Book Exchange shows a number of items in print at prices from the reasonable to $17,500(!), but even `reasonable' is more than I'd go for a pig in a poke. For those who are wondering, the reprinted volume was 'The Three Musketeers' by Alexander Dumas, printed 1994, paperback, ISBN 0-812-53602-9. Amazon says it's still in print at $4.99. For the Little/ Brown versions, use ABE page with author 'Dumas, Alexandre' and publisher 'Little, Brown'. -- It is far more impressive when others discover your good qualities, without hour help. -- Chuck Pyle 'The Zen Cowboy' http://www.chuckpyle.com/bio.html From mam at theworld.com Wed Aug 14 15:18:09 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 18:18:09 -0400 Subject: A simple...I think question In-Reply-To: <000001c243d7$b5d4ffa0$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Mark Tiller wrote: #I'm sure that someone may have already asked this, but exactly how are #you supposed to pronounce Dzur? I pronounce it dz as in oDDS ur as in bURn Words in English don't begin with "dz" or the similar "ts", so this is troublesome for many. In _Jhereg_ SKZB issued a pronunciation guide which says "tser". But I regret to say that I have considerable trouble with that guide; not that I consider its source unreliable!, but that inventing pronunciation guides is a lot more complicated and difficult than it seems. I'm speaking professionally here; I'm not a lexicographer, but I am a linguist (language scientist), and some of my work at Dragon Systems for 12 years was closely allied to this. In defense of the general statement in my second sentence, I'll just point to the line Jhereg jhuh-REG 1. There's no indication of what "jh" means. Unlike "j" and "zh", it has no conventional meaning either in English spelling or in customary transliteration of foreign languages. 2. The stress (accent) is contrary to what otherwise seems to be the most straightforward reading of the Cycle poem: Jhereg feeds on others' kills JHEreg FEEDS on OTHers' KILLS That, of course, doesn't prove that SKZB slipped up. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From Starshadw at aol.com Wed Aug 14 15:41:34 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 18:41:34 EDT Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain Message-ID: <1bb.4d0fa05.2a8c369e@aol.com> In a message dated 8/14/2002 2:48:19 PM Mountain Daylight Time, skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > >Looking forward to an early Christmas present. Any chance you know when B& > T > >will start taking preorders? > > No, sorry. > You mean we don't get one free as a gift for joining this list? >:) From feaelin at kemenel.org Wed Aug 14 15:42:43 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 17:42:43 -0500 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain Message-ID: > >Looking forward to an early Christmas present. Any chance you know > >when B&T will start taking preorders? I don't know about B&T, but Amazon has it for preorder: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312864787/qid=1029364343/ sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-4494393-7283861?s=books&n=507846 As a matter of fact, I think I'll order it right now. :) From Starshadw at aol.com Wed Aug 14 15:43:13 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 18:43:13 EDT Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain Message-ID: <167.1248d6a7.2a8c3701@aol.com> In a message dated 8/14/2002 3:23:39 PM Mountain Daylight Time, saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com writes: > *wistfully* Hearing "cowabunga" pass from behind Khaavren's teeth, > preferably when introducing himself to someone like dear little > twerp Morrolan, would make me weep with joy. Hey! None of that name-calling, now! Hmph! Stacy, defending Morrolan's honour From zizban at adelphia.net Wed Aug 14 15:47:03 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 18:47:03 -0400 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: <1bb.4d0fa05.2a8c369e@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 06:41 PM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/14/2002 2:48:19 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > > >>> Looking forward to an early Christmas present. Any chance you know >>> when B& >> T >>> will start taking preorders? >> >> No, sorry. >> > > You mean we don't get one free as a gift for joining this list? >:) I was one of the first on this list. If anyone deserves a free gift, it's me :-) From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Aug 14 15:53:52 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:53:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain Message-ID: <200208142253.g7EMreo01954@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > I was one of the first on this list. If anyone deserves a free gift, > it's me :-) Oh, yeah?!? Well...uh... I make sacrificial offerings of small, furry animals to Brust during full moons!! 'Course, that probably deserves a small, padded white room with a white coat and long sleeves... Sorry, bored at work today... Chris "You will be required to do wrong no matter where you go. It is the basic condition of life, to be required to violate your own identity. At some time, every creature which lives must do so. It is the ultimate shadow, the defeat of creation; this is the curse at work, the curse that feeds on all life. Everywhere in the universe." - "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" - Philip K. Dick From Alan.Halsted at mailus.com.au Wed Aug 14 16:11:47 2002 From: Alan.Halsted at mailus.com.au (Alan Halsted) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 09:11:47 +1000 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain Message-ID: I totally agree with what you say about Tor. I used to rep for them in NYC 10 years ago and they were absolutely fantastic to work with. And they were also quite indulgent of my interest in so many of the titles and authors they represent. I hope you stay with them for a long time! Having been out of the loop for a while, any chance of the Taltos series apearring in the Orb imprint? And hopefully you can keep the artwork as it is amongst the best cover art ever done. Cheers Al > -----Original Message----- > From: Steven Brust [SMTP:skzb at dreamcafe.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 6:47 AM > To: Casey Rousseau; dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain > > At 04:04 PM 8/14/2002 -0400, Casey Rousseau wrote: > >SKZB replied to my questions: > > > >I can't remember the last time I asked a sales clerk for advice on > > > >what to buy, but I can see the point. > > > > > > No, no, no. I don't mean the sales staff that sells you a book at > your > > > local bookstore, I mean the sales staff that sells several boxes to > the > > > jobbers, or a truckload to the chains. > > > >The light dawneth. Of course! I suppose though this would be smaller > >audience that would be easier to give a pronunciation guide to, you > really > >don't want to have to do so. Patrick is undoubtedly right. > > I'm trying to figure out why I've been so sensitive about this. The > notion > that I might make an artistic compromise for commercial reasons irritates > me enough that I have to wonder if there is something I haven't been > admitting to myself. Well, if so, I still haven't admitted it to myself. > > The other thing, though, is that there seems to be some sort of > preconception of "Big Narsty Publisher forcing Poor Artist to change work > in line with commercial requirements." Certainly this happens--in fact, > forms of it starting happening right about the time art was invented. But > > it isn't that simple, and it isn't always the case. > > The reason I'm so happy with Tor is because the people I work with there > actually care about books--all the way from Tom Doherty to the publicity > people--as far as I can tell, this is probably even true of the sales > staff. > > Now, as Patrick was working with production, he happened to observe that > some of the production people were having a bit of trouble with the name > of > that book--they stumbled over it, and then became embarrassed. One of the > > little things that makes a book work is the enthusiasm of the production > staff (those who lay out the type, make the cover right, dot the "t"s and > cross the "i"s. Patrick concluded that this little bit of embarrassment > might have a tiny effect on how everything came down. Also, it might have > > a tiny effect on those who would go forth to see how many books got into > the hands of those who, so far, have never heard from me. He said, > "Consider a new title. If you think it important, we'll stay with the one > > it has, but this is worth thinking about." I thought about it, and decided > > to change it, because it struck that me that losing a tinge of Paarfi-ism > (and I agree with those who say the original title is more Paarfi-like) > was > a reasonable trade-off for making production people a little happier, and > maybe making the sales people a tich more enthusiastic. > > Okay, that was my choice, good or bad, artist or hack. > > But to then hear stuff that I took as, "the publisher" (i.e., my friend > Patrick) sacrificing artistic integrity for evil marketing considerations > annoyed me, and I got rather more irritated about it than I should have, > under the circumstances. > > For that, I apologize. > > > > > >Looking forward to an early Christmas present. Any chance you know when > B&T > >will start taking preorders? > > No, sorry. > > In other news, the Official Title for the three volume novel is-- > > (drum roll) > > > _The Miscreant of Cowabunga_ > ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please delete the e-mail & notify the system manager. We reserve the right to scan all e-mail traffic for restricted content and to monitor all e-mail traffic in general. The views and opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender and do not necessarily reflect the views of the organisation by whom they are employed, except where the sender expressly and with authority states them to be so. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been checked for the presence of computer viruses and script. We believe but do not warrant that this e-mail is free from viruses. Responsibility for virus checking rests entirely with the recipient. 5 at 356 ********************************************************************** From zizban at adelphia.net Wed Aug 14 16:23:45 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 19:23:45 -0400 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: <200208142253.g7EMreo01954@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 06:53 PM, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: >> I was one of the first on this list. If anyone deserves a free gift, >> it's me :-) > > Oh, yeah?!? Well...uh... I make sacrificial offerings of > small, furry animals to Brust during full moons!! > > 'Course, that probably deserves a small, padded white > room with a white coat and long sleeves... > > Sorry, bored at work today... > > Chris > No! Not small furry animals! Of course, Poodles are okay. I hate poodles. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Aug 14 16:27:10 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 16:27:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain Message-ID: <200208142326.g7ENQwo07324@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > No! Not small furry animals! Of course, Poodles are okay. I hate poodles. Oh, well. Certainly poodles. Little yappy-dogs, they are! Appetizers!! Pugs, too, now I think about it... OK, fine! I admit it!!... I'm a cat person... Woof, Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real" -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From zizban at adelphia.net Wed Aug 14 16:30:55 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 19:30:55 -0400 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: <200208142326.g7ENQwo07324@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 07:27 PM, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: >> No! Not small furry animals! Of course, Poodles are okay. I hate >> poodles. > > Oh, well. Certainly poodles. Little yappy-dogs, > they are! Appetizers!! Pugs, too, now I think about > it... > > OK, fine! I admit it!!... I'm a cat person... > > Woof, > Chris I'm a cat person too but I like medium to large dogs. I have a yellow lab that loves playing with our cats (the cats don't return the favor, usually) From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Wed Aug 14 19:44:55 2002 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 19:44:55 -0700 Subject: Morrolan is too a twerp! (was: Re: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) Message-ID: <200208141944.AA173539714@amish2000.com> >> *wistfully* Hearing "cowabunga" pass from behind Khaavren's teeth, >> preferably when introducing himself to someone like dear little >> twerp Morrolan, would make me weep with joy. > >Hey! None of that name-calling, now! Hmph! What? Why noooooooot? *grin* It's not like he'd care. There's got to be some benefit to being dirt below a Dragonlord's feet, and one of those benefits is being able to mutter "twerptwinkiwannaswordlikethat," secure in the knowledge that even if he did hear, he wouldn't give a sniglet about _my_ opinion. ... would it help if I said that "twerp" is now recognized, in anime fandom at least, to mean "extreme envy-inducing person," cf. Vejiita from _Dragonball Z_, Ifurita from _El Hazard_, or Sephiroth from _FFVII_? >Stacy, defending Morrolan's honour Now, now. He can defend his own honor. You joining the fray is overkill, innit? Cheers, ~MJ, not, unfortunately, a twerp... just a twit. ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ ~ A Pirate Looks At Twenty ~ http://erythros.livejournal.com/ ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ ____________________________________________________________ ____ Get your own evilemail.com address at http://www.evilemail.com From Gaertk at aol.com Wed Aug 14 17:15:43 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 20:15:43 -0400 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain Message-ID: <3E68F8AF.42B0F9A4.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Thu, 15 Aug 2002 09:11:47 +1000, Alan Halsted writes: >?Having been out of the loop for a while, any chance of the > Taltos series apearring in the Orb imprint? ?And hopefully > you can keep the artwork as it is amongst the best cover > art ever done. Ace is reprinting the Vlad books in trade paperback omnibuses; they've already published _Book of Jhereg_ and _Book of Taltos_ and will presumably publish _Book of Athyra_ soon. I think Steve said something about Tor considering reprinting _Brokedown Palace_, but don't quote me on that. Is it possible to search the mailing list archives for stuff in the message bodies? BTW, is anyone still looking for _Athyra_? I was in a local used bookstore today, and saw ten of the Dragaera books (everything except tPG and Issola) for sale at the normal half off the mass market list price. --KG From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Aug 14 17:13:38 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 17:13:38 -0700 Subject: A simple...I think question In-Reply-To: References: <000001c243d7$b5d4ffa0$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814170851.02962910@localhost> At 06:18 PM 8/14/2002 -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Mark Tiller wrote: > >#I'm sure that someone may have already asked this, but exactly how are >#you supposed to pronounce Dzur? > >I pronounce it > dz as in oDDS > ur as in bURn Exactly right. >In defense of the general statement in my second sentence, I'll just >point to the line > Jhereg jhuh-REG Typo. It was supposed to be zhuh-REG. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Aug 14 17:25:24 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 17:25:24 -0700 Subject: On Paarfi and his translators In-Reply-To: <20020814215402.GA23387@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814172310.00a75070@localhost> At 05:54 PM 8/14/2002 -0400, you wrote: >Steve Brust wrote: > > > My edition (Little, Brown & Co., 1887) has them in 9 volumes -- > > 10 Years Later > > Raul De Bragalonne Vol 1 and 2 > > Louisa de la Valliere Vol 1 and 2 > > The Man in the Iron Mask Vol 1 and 2 > > Fortunes of d'Artagnon Vol 1 and 2 > >Some years back one of your publishers reprinted 'The Three Musketeers' >in what was supposedly your favored translation. TTM had left me cold >in high school and one or two attempts afterwards, but since I'd enjoyed >Paarfi and his language, I gave it a shot. > >It was great fun, primarily because the language finally clicked for me. >Thinking it was just all those years of personal development since high >school, I picked up a translation of 'Twenty Years After' -- and bombed. I feel validated. Yes. The translation is everything. Modern translation suck. It would be nice if Tor reissued Twenty Years After, but TTM didn't do well, so that's unlikely. >So I have two questions, really. Do the other Little/Brown editions >you have seem to be by the same translator, and does Tor have any >interest in doing the rest of them? Yes and no. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Aug 14 17:28:13 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 17:28:13 -0700 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: <200208142253.g7EMreo01954@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814172722.02a348d0@localhost> At 03:53 PM 8/14/2002 -0700, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > I was one of the first on this list. If anyone deserves a free gift, > > it's me :-) > >Oh, yeah?!? Well...uh... I make sacrificial offerings of >small, furry animals to Brust during full moons!! Is *that* where those damned things are coming from? Cut it out. I can't get rid of 'em. Now, if you were to offer cute little Asian girls who want to be chained up and beaten, we could talk.... From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Aug 14 17:29:47 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 17:29:47 -0700 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814172838.02a357c0@localhost> At 09:11 AM 8/15/2002 +1000, Alan Halsted wrote: >Having been out >of the loop for a while, any chance of the Taltos series apearring in the >Orb imprint? I don't know. They are doing very well at keeping my stuff in print so far, but I don't know what the future plans are. > And hopefully you can keep the artwork as it is amongst the >best cover art ever done. I have been so lucky with cover art it should be illegal. From unitcancellation at hotmail.com Wed Aug 14 17:36:01 2002 From: unitcancellation at hotmail.com (Alex Nixon) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 21:36:01 -0300 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain Message-ID: Well, that's about the creepiest thing I've heard today. Well, maybe second most creepy. Alex PS If you start a BDSM club, can I be Head Recruiter? ----Original Message Follows---- From: Steven Brust Now, if you were to offer cute little Asian girls who want to be chained up and beaten, we could talk.... _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From rachael at daedala.net Wed Aug 14 17:40:15 2002 From: rachael at daedala.net (Rachael Lininger) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 19:40:15 -0500 (CDT) Subject: On Paarfi and his translators In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814172310.00a75070@localhost> Message-ID: On Aug 14, Steven Brust said: >At 05:54 PM 8/14/2002 -0400, you wrote: > >>So I have two questions, really. Do the other Little/Brown editions >>you have seem to be by the same translator, and does Tor have any >>interest in doing the rest of them? > >Yes and no. Talk to DDB and ABBYY about that, I think. Rachael -- Rachael From the Dilbert Newsletter: Lininger "You should talk to her. rachael@ She is a minefield of information." daedala.net From nytemuse at auros.org Wed Aug 14 17:45:55 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 17:45:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814172722.02a348d0@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: > At 03:53 PM 8/14/2002 -0700, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > > I was one of the first on this list. If anyone deserves a free gift, > > > it's me :-) > >Oh, yeah?!? Well...uh... I make sacrificial offerings of > >small, furry animals to Brust during full moons!! > Is *that* where those damned things are coming from? Cut it out. I can't > get rid of 'em. Now, if you were to offer cute little Asian girls who want > to be chained up and beaten, we could talk.... Ooh! Ooh! I can help with that! Not myself personally (not quite Asian, but the latter part, sure), but I know cute little girls and bois of many types. :) How I love San Francisco...*giggle* ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From mam at theworld.com Wed Aug 14 17:56:37 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 20:56:37 -0400 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: <200208142253.g7EMreo01954@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: #Oh, yeah?!? Well...uh... I make sacrificial offerings of #small, furry animals to Brust during full moons!! # #'Course, that probably deserves a small, padded white #room with a white coat and long sleeves... Yeah. Sorry we can't arrange a room at the top of a tower, with a varying number of windows, one of which shows... -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mam at theworld.com Wed Aug 14 17:59:55 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 20:59:55 -0400 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814172838.02a357c0@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: #I have been so lucky with cover art Yes, you have, and so have we! # it should be illegal. Watch that! (knock on wood) Somebody might take you up on it. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mam at theworld.com Wed Aug 14 18:01:01 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 21:01:01 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Nytemuse wrote: #Ooh! Ooh! I can help with that! Not myself personally (not quite Asian, #but the latter part, sure), but I know cute little girls and bois of many #types. :) How I love San Francisco...*giggle* What's the difference between a boy and a boi? -- Mark A. Mandel Inquiring minds (and other parts) want to know From mam at theworld.com Wed Aug 14 18:02:48 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 21:02:48 -0400 Subject: A simple...I think question In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814170851.02962910@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: #>In defense of the general statement in my second sentence, I'll just #>point to the line #> Jhereg jhuh-REG # #Typo. It was supposed to be zhuh-REG. Oh. So, jheREG FEEDS on OTHers' KILLS ? And "zh" for any other "jh"s, as in "Jhegaala"? -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From nytemuse at auros.org Wed Aug 14 18:11:27 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 18:11:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Nytemuse wrote: > #Ooh! Ooh! I can help with that! Not myself personally (not quite Asian, > #but the latter part, sure), but I know cute little girls and bois of many > #types. :) How I love San Francisco...*giggle* > What's the difference between a boy and a boi? Personal preference...bois are generally the cool ones who are, if not either goth, poly, bi/gay, or into BDSM, are at least tolerant of it. Mature boys, but possibly not quite "men", in the way the rest of the world see men. I use "boy" as more of a mildly derogatory "you haven't grown up yet, so you're still a boy" term. ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From mam at theworld.com Wed Aug 14 18:40:03 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 21:40:03 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Nytemuse wrote: #> What's the difference between a boy and a boi? # #Personal preference...bois are generally the cool ones who are, if not #either goth, poly, bi/gay, or into BDSM, are at least tolerant of it. #Mature boys, but possibly not quite "men", in the way the rest of the #world see men. I use "boy" as more of a mildly derogatory "you haven't #grown up yet, so you're still a boy" term. Ah. Thanks. I sort of thought something like that, having seen the term around. May I forward this to the discussion list of the American Dialect Society? With or without your name & e-dress, at your choice. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Aug 14 18:41:34 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 18:41:34 -0700 Subject: A simple...I think question In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814170851.02962910@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814184115.00acc370@localhost> At 09:02 PM 8/14/2002 -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: > >#>In defense of the general statement in my second sentence, I'll just >#>point to the line >#> Jhereg jhuh-REG ># >#Typo. It was supposed to be zhuh-REG. > >Oh. So, > jheREG FEEDS on OTHers' KILLS > ? Yes. >And "zh" for any other "jh"s, as in "Jhegaala"? Yep. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Aug 14 18:49:58 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 18:49:58 -0700 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814184909.029ecdf0@localhost> At 09:36 PM 8/14/2002 -0300, Alex Nixon wrote: >Well, that's about the creepiest thing I've heard today. > >Well, maybe second most creepy. > >Alex > >PS If you start a BDSM club, can I be Head Recruiter? What would I do with a bunch of heads? From nytemuse at auros.org Wed Aug 14 18:52:19 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 18:52:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote: > Ah. Thanks. I sort of thought something like that, having seen the term > around. > > May I forward this to the discussion list of the American Dialect > Society? With or without your name & e-dress, at your choice. Absolutment. Heck, include the "name" & e-dress, for all I care. It's a non-traceable alias anyway *shrug* ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From nytemuse at auros.org Wed Aug 14 18:53:24 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 18:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814184909.029ecdf0@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: > At 09:36 PM 8/14/2002 -0300, Alex Nixon wrote: > >PS If you start a BDSM club, can I be Head Recruiter? > > What would I do with a bunch of heads? Um...that would depend on which kind of heads. OK, I'm going back to my pervy li'l corner now, before I really scare people. ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Aug 14 18:58:24 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 18:58:24 -0700 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814185340.029eeec0@localhost> At 06:11 PM 8/14/2002 -0700, Nytemuse wrote: >On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote: > > On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Nytemuse wrote: > > #Ooh! Ooh! I can help with that! Not myself personally (not quite Asian, > > #but the latter part, sure), but I know cute little girls and bois of many > > #types. :) How I love San Francisco...*giggle* > > What's the difference between a boy and a boi? > >Personal preference...bois are generally the cool ones who are, if not >either goth, poly, bi/gay, or into BDSM, are at least tolerant of it. >Mature boys, but possibly not quite "men", in the way the rest of the >world see men. I use "boy" as more of a mildly derogatory "you haven't >grown up yet, so you're still a boy" term. As I understand it, a "boi" is a female who identifies as a submissive male in a lesbian relationship. A "boy" identifies a submissive in a gay male relationship. As I understand it, the BDSM community is in a race with the business community to see who can do the most damage to our language in the least time. From unitcancellation at hotmail.com Wed Aug 14 19:02:32 2002 From: unitcancellation at hotmail.com (Alex Nixon) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 23:02:32 -0300 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain Message-ID: I was right there with you. Does that mean we're both pervs? Alex ----Original Message Follows---- From: Nytemuse On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: > At 09:36 PM 8/14/2002 -0300, Alex Nixon wrote: > >PS If you start a BDSM club, can I be Head Recruiter? > > What would I do with a bunch of heads? Um...that would depend on which kind of heads. OK, I'm going back to my pervy li'l corner now, before I really scare people. ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com What, me worry? I'm a Yankees fan! All Yankee fans would go to heaven... ...but we're already there! _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From unitcancellation at hotmail.com Wed Aug 14 19:03:53 2002 From: unitcancellation at hotmail.com (Alex Nixon) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 23:03:53 -0300 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain Message-ID: For use in the Necrophyllia Club, obviously. Do I have to spell everything out? ;) Alex ----Original Message Follows---- From: Steven Brust What would I do with a bunch of heads? _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From nytemuse at auros.org Wed Aug 14 19:13:48 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 19:13:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814185340.029eeec0@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: > As I understand it, a "boi" is a female who identifies as a submissive male > in a lesbian relationship. A "boy" identifies a submissive in a gay male > relationship. > > As I understand it, the BDSM community is in a race with the business > community to see who can do the most damage to our language in the least time. Well, maybe in your circles *shrug* I've never heard those definitions used. But, then again, the goth and BDSM and poly communities will probably never get organized enough to agree on a unified dictionary. Unless we take over the world, or something. *smirk* I think the business community is winning on that one... but who cares. Language is subjective, like all things. ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Aug 14 19:37:12 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 14 Aug 2002 21:37:12 -0500 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: <3E68F8AF.42B0F9A4.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <3E68F8AF.42B0F9A4.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: Gaertk at aol.com writes: > I think Steve said something about Tor considering reprinting > _Brokedown Palace_, but don't quote me on that. Is it > possible to search the mailing list archives for stuff in the > message bodies? Not yet; but it's a side-effect of the Dragaera site search engine, now in alpha test, which will be in the New Improved Dragaera site. Um, don't hold your breath; *lots* of new code, and I just let the first couple of people beyond the development group in this week, and I made them promise not to talk until we said they could. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Aug 14 19:45:20 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 14 Aug 2002 21:45:20 -0500 Subject: On Paarfi and his translators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Rachael Lininger writes: > On Aug 14, Steven Brust said: > > >At 05:54 PM 8/14/2002 -0400, you wrote: > > > >>So I have two questions, really. Do the other Little/Brown editions > >>you have seem to be by the same translator, and does Tor have any > >>interest in doing the rest of them? > > > >Yes and no. > > Talk to DDB and ABBYY about that, I think. That'd be interesting; I haven't tried it on any typefaces that *old*. And my copies are practically falling apart anyway. Worth checking of somebody has *alread* done them for Gutenberg, too; they're generally careful about identifying the source, so we should be able to tell what they used. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From Starshadw at aol.com Wed Aug 14 20:05:43 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 23:05:43 EDT Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain Message-ID: <102.19ae32b1.2a8c7487@aol.com> In a message dated 8/14/2002 6:30:06 PM Mountain Daylight Time, skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > Is *that* where those damned things are coming from? Cut it out. I can't > get rid of 'em. Now, if you were to offer cute little Asian girls who want > > to be chained up and beaten, we could talk.... I had a rather raunchy response to this, but decided NOT to post it. Stacy From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Aug 14 20:18:08 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 20:18:08 -0700 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814185340.029eeec0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> At 07:13 PM 8/14/2002 -0700, Nytemuse wrote: >I think the business community is winning on that one... I think you're right. > but who >cares. Language is subjective, like all things. Oh, how splendid! An argument! "Language is subjective, like all things." Well, in the first place, we're simply going to have to disagree about all things being subjective. In fact, I believe that there is an objective reality, and that we will never understand it fully does not relieve us of the responsibility to try. But let us pass on to language. Can it simply be dismissed as "subjective?" I'm not sure. My inclination is to say no. Language has at least two important uses--first, it is how we think, second, it is how we communicate our thoughts. Let us consider the second. The easiest two examples to illustrate my point would be mathematics and music. Let us consider mathematics. It is obviously a language--that is, a coherent system of symbols. Is there any objective truth to the proposition that 2+3=5? Well, sure, at least insofar as if I pile up two books, add another three to the pile, I will have five books in the pile. Now, two individuals can agree that, amongst themselves, they will use the symbol "4" to represent three. Among the two of them, that would work, so I guess in that sense language could be considered subjective. But if they want to communicate with the rest of the world, they really ought to agree about what symbols mean what. Obviously, if I write down some sheet music that an F# occurs here for four bars, and one of the musicians decides that, for his purposes, "F#" means the chord that rest of us call "C" and that "four bars" means "six bars" the music will not come out the way I had intended it. It seems to me that language, while often subjective, has an objective element insofar as it is shared. As for English, well, consider that you and I pretty much agree, at least in general, on what "subjective" means, and that, if we didn't, we'd be unable to have this delightful discussion. While it is clear that not all words in English have exact, precise meanings in which all nuances are completely understood and agreed upon by everyone, there are two things I believe-- 1) The more any given group agrees on the meaning of a word, the better they are able to exchange ideas. 2) The more we have words available that make clear, nice distinctions, the more precisely, elegantly, and, ultimately, creatively we are able to think. Okay, we're off. *Now* we're having fun. From spenn at shaw.ca Wed Aug 14 20:21:35 2002 From: spenn at shaw.ca (Sean) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 20:21:35 -0700 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain References: <102.19ae32b1.2a8c7487@aol.com> Message-ID: <002601c2440a$dc6407a0$883e5418@dontbenosy> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 8:05 PM Subject: Re: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain > In a message dated 8/14/2002 6:30:06 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > > > > Is *that* where those damned things are coming from? Cut it out. I can't > > get rid of 'em. Now, if you were to offer cute little Asian girls who want > > > > to be chained up and beaten, we could talk.... > > I had a rather raunchy response to this, but decided NOT to post it. > > Stacy > Dis a Pointing! From spenn at shaw.ca Wed Aug 14 20:41:31 2002 From: spenn at shaw.ca (Sean) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 20:41:31 -0700 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814185340.029eeec0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> Message-ID: <003001c2440d$a5077c30$883e5418@dontbenosy> snip > > but who > >cares. Language is subjective, like all things. > > Oh, how splendid! An argument! > > > snip > It seems to me that language, while often subjective, has an objective > element insofar as it is shared. snip > 1) The more any given group agrees on the meaning of a word, the better > they are able to exchange ideas. > 2) The more we have words available that make clear, nice distinctions, the > more precisely, elegantly, and, ultimately, creatively we are able to think. > All true, I think, but consider street lingo. Example: Wack. The first time I ever heard wack used it had a positive connotation (mid 80s). "That song is wack!" meaning it was "da bomb", or good. However, today, wack is negative. Street language continually evolves, almost like a code. These words filter into the language in general and are changed again, losing many of their more subjective connotations and taking on a more concrete form. But still, those forms are driven by their usage and popularization on the street. There are east-coast hip-hop words that have exactly the opposite meaning on the west-coast. This, I think, is healthy, and necessary, to keep the language healthy. In France they say "un hotdog", or "une dollar", but in Quebec, where they protect their language like a dog protects her young, they insist on francophed versions. This is not healthy, but I digress. I guess my point is that I think language is wonderfully subjective, especially English. Take the conceits of John Donne or Shakespeare as examples. Without the subjectivity of our language, "The Flea" would simply be a poem about two lovers bitten by a common pest. Add a dram of subjectivity and voila, we have a conceit within which Donne is seducing his mistress by comparing the mixing of their blood within the beast to the mixing of other "fluids". And he was a minister too! Naughty fellow. From nytemuse at auros.org Wed Aug 14 20:41:22 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 20:41:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: > "Language is subjective, like all things." Well, in the first place, we're > simply going to have to disagree about all things being subjective. In > fact, I believe that there is an objective reality, and that we will never > understand it fully does not relieve us of the responsibility to try. There may be currently an objective reality, but it started subjectively. > But let us pass on to language. Can it simply be dismissed as > "subjective?" I'm not sure. My inclination is to say no. Language has at > least two important uses--first, it is how we think, second, it is how we > communicate our thoughts. Language has BECOME objective, but it began as subjective. Some random person saw a tree and said "I'm going to call that a 'tree'." and he told his friends and they believed him until it became "commonly known". This can also be illustrated in naming drugs. The name for new drugs is created by the creator of the drug. Even in the case of a community or group deciding collectively or voting on a word, SOMEONE had to suggest it. And the rules for coming up with new words and such were decided by SOMEONE. > Let us consider the second. The easiest two examples to illustrate my > point would be mathematics and music. Let us consider mathematics. It is > obviously a language--that is, a coherent system of symbols. Is there any > objective truth to the proposition that 2+3=5? Well, sure, at least > insofar as if I pile up two books, add another three to the pile, I will > have five books in the pile. Now, two individuals can agree that, amongst > themselves, they will use the symbol "4" to represent three. Among the two > of them, that would work, so I guess in that sense language could be > considered subjective. But if they want to communicate with the rest of > the world, they really ought to agree about what symbols mean what. I think that memo needs to go out to the rest of the world... In studying language, I was just shocked in some systems where 1 word can mean several different things, depending on the context. Then I look at English and realize it's universal. The problem is just that: people decide on a different definition, get their friends to use it, and soon there are double-meanings. Take, for example, the word "nauseous". Following the "rules" of grammar and language construction and such, it ORIGINALLY was created to mean "causing nausea or disgust; nauseating". But, due to popular MIS-usage, it now is accepted by the world (and Merriam-Webster OnLine) to mean "affected with nausea or disgust". The PROPER word for that condition is "nauseated", but since so many people started using "nauseous" in the same context, it has now been accepted. All it takes is a properly influential group to mis-use words on a regular basis, and in some amount of years, it can be assimilated into language. Even slang has been accepted into the dictionary, like "dude", and "gnarly". > It seems to me that language, while often subjective, has an objective > element insofar as it is shared. I'll agree to that, while amending that it was originally subjective, using the definition "characteristic of or belonging to reality as perceived rather than as independent of mind". Someone perceived that that object that fell from the sky when it got dark was "rain". And since there was no name previously, people accepted it willingly. Hell, if I had been alive when language was being created, and I thought that a rock should be called an "ouch" or an "aclob", and I could come up with the word before anyone else, things would be different. > As for English, well, consider that you and I pretty much agree, at least > in general, on what "subjective" means, and that, if we didn't, we'd be > unable to have this delightful discussion. While it is clear that not all > words in English have exact, precise meanings in which all nuances are > completely understood and agreed upon by everyone, there are two things I > believe-- > 1) The more any given group agrees on the meaning of a word, the better > they are able to exchange ideas. > 2) The more we have words available that make clear, nice distinctions, the > more precisely, elegantly, and, ultimately, creatively we are able to think. Exactly...of course slang, also, detracts from these objectives...but *shrug* Whatcha gonna do? ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From frank at exit.com Wed Aug 14 20:51:48 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 20:51:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> Message-ID: <200208150351.g7F3pmiv052509@realtime.exit.com> Steven Brust wrote: > 1) The more any given group agrees on the meaning of a word, the better > they are able to exchange ideas. I can testify to this, by painful experience. My wife is Chinese. She speaks English very well, but she is nowhere near the point at which she will begin to _think_ in English, so she is constantly translating from Mandarin. This makes our communication, um, interesting, at times. She will use a word that she understands has the meaning closest to the Mandarin word she wants, but when I hear the word, I think something distinctly different from what she has in mind. For a real example that happened just the other day: She used the word "complicated" to describe elementary school classmates. Now, when I think of that word, I think "complex, multilayered, hidden levels," all about personality. I gradually began to realize, though, that she was referring not to their personalities but to their behaviors, in that they were always looking for ways to advance themselves, to make new and better personal contacts so that they would be more successful in school (and in society in general). I'm reasonably sure that the Mandarin word that she translated expresses her true meaning pretty precisely. Unfortunately, the English word "complicated" didn't (and, in fact, there isn't an English word that I'm aware of offhand that _would_ capture the meaning she intended). So confusion ensued until I realized that what she meant wasn't what I was hearing. So, yeah, people have to agree on the meanings of words before they can communicate effectively, or at all. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From frank at exit.com Wed Aug 14 20:55:46 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 20:55:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200208150355.g7F3tkbe052683@realtime.exit.com> Nytemuse wrote: > Language has BECOME objective, but it began as subjective. Some random > person saw a tree and said "I'm going to call that a 'tree'." and he told > his friends and they believed him until it became "commonly known". This > can also be illustrated in naming drugs. The name for new drugs is > created by the creator of the drug. Even in the case of a community or > group deciding collectively or voting on a word, SOMEONE had to suggest > it. And the rules for coming up with new words and such were decided by > SOMEONE. On the Nature website I read today that researchers have begun to understand a gene which has a pivotal role in human language. Given that the capability for language is inborn in humans, and in fact is hardwired in the structures of our brains, how can you say that language is truly subjective? We are getting close to a truly objective understanding of the mechanisms that underly language. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From nytemuse at auros.org Wed Aug 14 20:58:02 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 20:58:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <200208150351.g7F3pmiv052509@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Frank Mayhar wrote: > I'm reasonably sure that the Mandarin word that she translated expresses > her true meaning pretty precisely. Unfortunately, the English word > "complicated" didn't (and, in fact, there isn't an English word that I'm > aware of offhand that _would_ capture the meaning she intended). So > confusion ensued until I realized that what she meant wasn't what I was > hearing. Well, this is evident to any anime otaku as well *g* If you know ANY Japanese and watch subtitled anime, you can see that the english translation doesn't exactly match the original Japanese message. Especially where it pertains to suffixes (-sama, -san, -chan). One anime translated "-sama" to "princess", "-san" to Mr./Miss, and "-chan" to "-ster", as in "Hikaru-ster". Doesn't capture all the dimensions. There are many, MANY language barriers, that have developed as a result of languages growing with people from different perspectives. ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Aug 14 20:58:58 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 20:58:58 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> At 08:41 PM 8/14/2002 -0700, Nytemuse wrote: > In studying >language, I was just shocked in some systems where 1 word can mean several >different things, depending on the context. Then I look at English and >realize it's universal. The problem is just that: people decide on a >different definition, get their friends to use it, and soon there are >double-meanings. Take, for example, the word "nauseous". Following the >"rules" of grammar and language construction and such, it ORIGINALLY was >created to mean "causing nausea or disgust; nauseating". But, due to >popular MIS-usage, it now is accepted by the world (and Merriam-Webster >OnLine) to mean "affected with nausea or disgust". Now, as the other post I just read did, we're getting into how language changes. First of all, I'm hardly about to deny that it does so. But it seems to me that those of us who care about language ought to and are able to have some influence, albeit small. Not all changes are the same. Some extend the language. Other changes weaken it. Some changes are just ugly. I do not use the word, "proactive" because I find it ugly. I use "hopefully" to mean, "in a hopeful frame of mind." And so on. We all make those choices. And it is worth mentioning that some dictionaries are more willing accept changes than others. My American Heritage dictionary does not agree with Miriam-Webster about what "nauseous" means. Certainly, when we insist on the more precise, useful term we are fighting a rear-guard action, and are probably doomed. But I consider it a fight worth waging anyway. > > > It seems to me that language, while often subjective, has an objective > > element insofar as it is shared. > >I'll agree to that, while amending that it was originally subjective, >using the definition "characteristic of or belonging to reality as >perceived rather than as independent of mind". Someone perceived that >that object that fell from the sky when it got dark was "rain". And since >there was no name previously, people accepted it willingly. Hell, if I >had been alive when language was being created, and I thought that a rock >should be called an "ouch" or an "aclob", and I could come up with the >word before anyone else, things would be different. Umm...that isn't *exactly* how it happened, but your point is still valid. Apropos--did you know that some students at MIT invented an onomatopoeiatron? > >Exactly...of course slang, also, detracts from these objectives. Hmm. Some slang does. Other slang is, I think, useful. I look at them on a case-by-case basis. I mean, I'd be hard-pressed to give a definition of "cool" as I use it, but I'd have a lot of trouble expressing certain thoughts if I didn't have it available to me. From andrew at networkharmoni.com.au Wed Aug 14 21:01:12 2002 From: andrew at networkharmoni.com.au (Andrew Bailey) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:01:12 +0800 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814185340.029eeec0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> Message-ID: <3D5B2788.20900@networkharmoni.com.au> Steven Brust wrote: > > Oh, how splendid! An argument! > Arguments are good! Though I think that the term argument is interpreted incorrectly :) > > But let us pass on to language. Can it simply be dismissed as > "subjective?" I'm not sure. My inclination is to say no. Language has > at least two important uses--first, it is how we think, second, it is > how we communicate our thoughts. > Except of course when language is used as an aethetic artifact. Then the meaning can become entirly subjective. > Let us consider the second. The easiest two examples to illustrate my > point would be mathematics and music. Let us consider mathematics. It > is obviously a language--that is, a coherent system of symbols. I would contend that mathematics is more like a whole heap of languages, being as the grammers are not particualy consistant:) eg 2+3= is the same as 23+= just using a different notation > Is > there any objective truth to the proposition that 2+3=5? Well, sure, at > least insofar as if I pile up two books, add another three to the pile, > I will have five books in the pile. Now, two individuals can agree > that, amongst themselves, they will use the symbol "4" to represent > three. Among the two of them, that would work, so I guess in that sense > language could be considered subjective. But if they want to > communicate with the rest of the world, they really ought to agree about > what symbols mean what. > Unfortunalty this is often not the case, often understanding of symbols is ambigous, hence we have lawyers. > > As for English, well, consider that you and I pretty much agree, at > least in general, on what "subjective" means, and that, if we didn't, > we'd be unable to have this delightful discussion. While it is clear > that not all words in English have exact, precise meanings in which all > nuances are completely understood and agreed upon by everyone, there are > two things I believe-- > 1) The more any given group agrees on the meaning of a word, the better > they are able to exchange ideas. > 2) The more we have words available that make clear, nice distinctions, > the more precisely, elegantly, and, ultimately, creatively we are able > to think. > I find written english to be far more subjective than spoken english mainly cause the "voice" and context of the symbol is not always apparent, online this is compensated for by the use of emoticons for instance. OK time for logical argument. Can ambiguosity exist in a statement. Yes, for example consider the following statement "In my opinion, you will be very fortunate to get this person to work for you." This statement has two distict and contradictory meanings, hence it is up to the reader to interpret. If the reader is intrepreting a statement, does that not mean, by definition, that the statement is subjective? There are more examples of this kind at: http://www.vuse.vanderbilt.edu/~jgray/funny.html#LIAR So is it time to start talking about "relative truths" and post-modernism yet? On the other hand, as my wife says "Action is not a verb." Andrew. From nytemuse at auros.org Wed Aug 14 21:02:34 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 21:02:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <200208150355.g7F3tkbe052683@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Frank Mayhar wrote: > On the Nature website I read today that researchers have begun to understand > a gene which has a pivotal role in human language. > Given that the capability for language is inborn in humans, and in fact > is hardwired in the structures of our brains, how can you say that language > is truly subjective? We are getting close to a truly objective understanding > of the mechanisms that underly language. That would depend. What do you mean by "pivotal"? Exactly what role does the gene play in establishing language? I will agree that certain aspects of language, or perhaps a desire towards language, are innate or hardwired. But I haven't heard any of the evidence of this gene, or what constitutes the notion of getting close to that understanding. If someone HAS that evidence handy, I'll be happy to review it and amend my viewpoint accordingly, if necessary, but until then I continue to hold to my current theories that are based on my experiences to this point. And, on that note, I've said my peace, so except for direct questions/challenges, I'm going to back off the topic and see what everyone else has to say. (Wouldn't want to tie up the list!) ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From nytemuse at auros.org Wed Aug 14 21:06:06 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 21:06:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: > Apropos--did you know that some students at MIT invented an onomatopoeiatron? *l* No, I did not...do tell, what is an "onomatopoeiatron"? (I have a guess or two, but I'd be more interested in the exact definition) > >Exactly...of course slang, also, detracts from these objectives. > Hmm. Some slang does. Other slang is, I think, useful. I look at them on > a case-by-case basis. I mean, I'd be hard-pressed to give a definition of > "cool" as I use it, but I'd have a lot of trouble expressing certain > thoughts if I didn't have it available to me. I'll concur on that one. As it is obvious, I use some slang, and also computer acronyms *hangs head in shame*. ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Aug 14 21:14:21 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 21:14:21 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814211236.00ab3e60@localhost> At 09:06 PM 8/14/2002 -0700, Nytemuse wrote: >On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: > > Apropos--did you know that some students at MIT invented an > onomatopoeiatron? > >*l* No, I did not...do tell, what is an "onomatopoeiatron"? Just what it sounds like. >I'll concur on that one. As it is obvious, I use some slang, and also >computer acronyms *hangs head in shame*. You should be ashamed. You must now be severely spanked with a rolled up hardcopy of jargon.txt. From scs at di.org Wed Aug 14 21:10:21 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 00:10:21 -0400 Subject: Random thoughts on bois and language Message-ID: <20020815041021.GA29965@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> I'm going to happily come down on neither side of this arguement. As Steven points out, language is mutually agreed-upon symbolism. As long as those symbols match up between speakers and there is some reasonably good mapping to reality, that's good enough. On the other hand, language evolves. On a different list I'm on, we're currently discussing the meanings of the words gumboots, gumshoes, wellies, wellingtons and galoshes; our amusement that they all mean the same thing; and which of them also means detective, overshoes, a dance, a song, and a dead British politician (the discussion crew includes a number of professional linguists, a half-dozen writers, a number of computer programmers, and a lot of musicians.) It's all in good fun, and we all realize the importance of meaning what you say and saying what you mean. Language will never fully map cleanly to reality, but to fail to try is to intentionally fail to communicate. And talking about it will lead to an ever-shrinking death spiral. As Zelazny said, `Listen instead to the Nameless...' (Lord of Light, Sam's parable). -- It is far more impressive when others discover your good qualities, without hour help. -- Chuck Pyle 'The Zen Cowboy' http://www.chuckpyle.com/bio.html From nytemuse at auros.org Wed Aug 14 21:26:37 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 21:26:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814211236.00ab3e60@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: > > > Apropos--did you know that some students at MIT invented an > > onomatopoeiatron? > >*l* No, I did not...do tell, what is an "onomatopoeiatron"? > Just what it sounds like. *groan* Oh dear, I walked right into that one... So, if I'm reading this right, it is something one inputs a sound file into and receives a text printout of the sound, ne? (Have to use this one on my grad student friends...) K, while we're on this, does anyone practice "tetrapyloctomy" or have "triskadekaphobia"? > >I'll concur on that one. As it is obvious, I use some slang, and also > >computer acronyms *hangs head in shame*. > You should be ashamed. You must now be severely spanked with a rolled up > hardcopy of jargon.txt. And will that follow with oral sex? (For anyone who didn't get that, GO WATCH MONTY PYTHON!) "First, you must give us all a spanking." "Ooh, a spanking!" "And then, the oral sex!" ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From scs at di.org Wed Aug 14 21:27:04 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 00:27:04 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <20020815042704.GA114@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Frank Mayhar writes: > On the Nature website I read today that researchers have begun to > understand a gene which has a pivotal role in human language. Assuming they are correct, the features that gene expresses are well- described in the wonderful and highly recommended book `Grammatical Man' by Jeremy Campbell. > . . . how can you say that > language is truly subjective? We are getting close to a truly objective > understanding of the mechanisms that underly language. The latter sentence does not imply the former. We're getting to a good understanding of the mechanisms that underly music, but response to it will always be subjective. -- It is far more impressive when others discover your good qualities, without hour help. -- Chuck Pyle 'The Zen Cowboy' http://www.chuckpyle.com/bio.html From books at bofh.com Wed Aug 14 21:38:55 2002 From: books at bofh.com (books at bofh.com) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 21:38:55 -0700 (MST) Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 14 Aug 2002 20:15:43 -0400" <3E68F8AF.42B0F9A4.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <01KLAWW75WG60013MG@chud.net> >In a message dated Thu, 15 Aug 2002 09:11:47 +1000, Alan >Halsted writes: >>?Having been out of the loop for a while, any chance of the >> Taltos series apearring in the Orb imprint? ?And hopefully >> you can keep the artwork as it is amongst the best cover >> art ever done. >Ace is reprinting the Vlad books in trade paperback >omnibuses; they've already published _Book of Jhereg_ and >_Book of Taltos_ and will presumably publish _Book of Athyra_ >soon. http://www.bofh.com/books/brust-faq.html#athyra -Jot From singram at videotron.ca Wed Aug 14 21:51:40 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 00:51:40 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) References: Message-ID: <000d01c24417$72765750$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nytemuse" To: "Dragaera Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:02 AM Subject: Re: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) > And, on that note, I've said my peace, so except for direct > questions/challenges, I'm going to back off the topic and see what > everyone else has to say. (Wouldn't want to tie up the list!) Why not? The list might like it!! -Scott From frank at exit.com Wed Aug 14 21:56:21 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 21:56:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200208150456.g7F4uLvk053110@realtime.exit.com> Nytemuse wrote: > That would depend. What do you mean by "pivotal"? Exactly what role does > the gene play in establishing language? In this case, it is a gene that affects fine voluntary muscular control of the mouth and larynx. It is a difference in this gene that lets humans have language and chimpanzees (and the rest) _not_ have language. In the area of neuropsychology, by the way, there has been a lot of study of the processing of speech in the brain. (I wanted to say "language," but it's a lot harder to demonstrate language in general than it is to demonstrate speech.) It appears that our language ability is, indeed, hardwired, and I am convinced that further study will only confirm that understanding. The interesting thing in this, for me, is that, given that this is the case, there must be an underlying biological logic to language that is shared by all humans. I was amazed to learn in school that as parents we are very much programmed to _teach_ language to infants, and, in fact, "baby talk" is very nearly the same in all cultures and languages. Given that there is an objective basis for language, I find it difficult to accept that very much at all of it can be truly "subjective," at least in a way that cannot be expressed and explained given sufficient understanding of ourselves. As for the Nature article, check out www.nature.com; registration and certain articles and abstracts are free. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From books at bofh.com Wed Aug 14 21:50:26 2002 From: books at bofh.com (books at bofh.com) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 21:50:26 -0700 (MST) Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:46:40 -0700" <5.1.0.14.0.20020814133016.00a8c3c0@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814112731.02a36160@localhost> Message-ID: <01KLAXHY683A0013MG@chud.net> >The reason I'm so happy with Tor is because the people I work with there >actually care about books--all the way from Tom Doherty to the publicity >people--as far as I can tell, this is probably even true of the sales staff. As a mere peon purchaser, I have had only one complaint with them. They have a decent website. They have a funny FAQ. They have no way to get ahold of them electronically. Now, you would think serving a geeky audience like SF they would have that. I spent about two weeks trying to track down an address, being forced to go through their Admin contact with the NIC before being told it appeared they didn't have access. Now, everyone I dealt with was very helpful, and they even gave me an 800 number to call, so I guess I can't complain _too_ much, but it was still frustrating. About 2 months later I checked their FAQ again, and it gave what the address should be (it bounced) and a 'temporary' address while they tried to get the 'real' address fixed. This address succesfully masqueraded as a black-hole. (The goal was to find out what I could do to get my copy of _Dragon_ replaced, as the back separated from the binding and the store I bought it from doesn't have any copies, and apparently can't get any more. :( ) -Jot From Alan.Halsted at mailus.com.au Wed Aug 14 22:04:55 2002 From: Alan.Halsted at mailus.com.au (Alan Halsted) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:04:55 +1000 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain Message-ID: Unless they moved, they used to be neatly situated in the Flatiron Building in NYC, on the floor below the St Martin's Press office. (Jeez, I miss the old life sometimes...) > -----Original Message----- > From: books at bofh.com [SMTP:books at bofh.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 2:50 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain > > >The reason I'm so happy with Tor is because the people I work with there > >actually care about books--all the way from Tom Doherty to the publicity > >people--as far as I can tell, this is probably even true of the sales > staff. > > As a mere peon purchaser, I have had only one complaint with them. > > They have a decent website. They have a funny FAQ. They have > no way to get ahold of them electronically. Now, you would > think serving a geeky audience like SF they would have that. > > I spent about two weeks trying to track down an address, being > forced to go through their Admin contact with the NIC before > being told it appeared they didn't have access. Now, everyone > I dealt with was very helpful, and they even gave me an 800 > number to call, so I guess I can't complain _too_ much, but > it was still frustrating. > > About 2 months later I checked their FAQ again, and it gave > what the address should be (it bounced) and a 'temporary' address > while they tried to get the 'real' address fixed. This address > succesfully masqueraded as a black-hole. > > (The goal was to find out what I could do to get my copy of > _Dragon_ replaced, as the back separated from the binding > and the store I bought it from doesn't have any copies, and > apparently can't get any more. :( ) > > -Jot ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please delete the e-mail & notify the system manager. We reserve the right to scan all e-mail traffic for restricted content and to monitor all e-mail traffic in general. The views and opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender and do not necessarily reflect the views of the organisation by whom they are employed, except where the sender expressly and with authority states them to be so. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been checked for the presence of computer viruses and script. We believe but do not warrant that this e-mail is free from viruses. Responsibility for virus checking rests entirely with the recipient. 5 at 356 ********************************************************************** From tsarren at alyra.org Wed Aug 14 22:20:28 2002 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Kat) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 00:20:28 -0500 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814185340.029eeec0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> Message-ID: <20020815052028.GE13289@galadriel.alyra.org> On Wed, Aug 14, 2002 at 08:18:08PM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: > > But let us pass on to language. Can it simply be dismissed as > "subjective?" I'm not sure. My inclination is to say no. Language has at > least two important uses--first, it is how we think, second, it is how we > communicate our thoughts. This is really an aside to how this discussion, but I figure it's worth tossing out there just to get people to think a bit more... Language is one of the ways in which we think. Another that comes to mind is spatial - I make chainmaille and work leather for a living; I spend quite a bit of my time thinking spatially rather than lingually, and am rather aware of the process of translation from spatial to lingual thought that occurs in my mind when I'm talking about maille to another mailler. Tsarren From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Aug 14 22:40:03 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 22:40:03 -0700 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <20020815052028.GE13289@galadriel.alyra.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814185340.029eeec0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814223532.029e7ec0@localhost> At 12:20 AM 8/15/2002 -0500, Kat wrote: >Language is one of the ways in which we think. Another that comes to mind is >spatial - I make chainmaille and work leather for a living; I spend quite a >bit of my time thinking spatially rather than lingually, and am rather aware >of the process of translation from spatial to lingual thought that occurs in >my mind when I'm talking about maille to another mailler. I'm not certain what it means to think spatially. I know that when I am involved in any sort of craft I tend to think in terms of that craft. That is, a carpenter does not think, "measure, mark, measure again, select nail, align, drive nail." Rather, he is thinking in the symbols associated with that skill. When I drum, I don't think, "Hit the bass, hit the snare, keep the ride going..." I am thinking in drum terms, which don't directly translate into language. Yet, the more I learn, the more skill I develop in mentally working with those symbols. As I "speak the language" better, I drum better. From nytemuse at auros.org Wed Aug 14 22:56:42 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 22:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <20020815052028.GE13289@galadriel.alyra.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Kat wrote: > Language is one of the ways in which we think. Another that comes to mind is > spatial - I make chainmaille and work leather for a living; I spend quite a > bit of my time thinking spatially rather than lingually, and am rather aware > of the process of translation from spatial to lingual thought that occurs in > my mind when I'm talking about maille to another mailler. That is true...I know I think more in images and pictures and stuff than in words. Sometimes, when I grasp a concept or get an idea, it can take me up to 10 minutes to put it into words. ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From mike at plokta.com Wed Aug 14 23:26:47 2002 From: mike at plokta.com (Mike Scott) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 07:26:47 +0100 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> (Steven Brust's message of "Wed, 14 Aug 2002 20:58:58 -0700") References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> Message-ID: Steven Brust writes: > And it is worth mentioning that some dictionaries are more willing > accept changes than others. My American Heritage dictionary does not > agree with Miriam-Webster about what "nauseous" means. Certainly, > when we insist on the more precise, useful term we are fighting a > rear-guard action, and are probably doomed. But I consider it a fight > worth waging anyway. I'd have to disagree that the older meaning of "nauseous" is either more precise or more useful. It seems to me that both meanings are about equally precise, just different. And if it was more useful in its older role, it would probably have stayed in it. It's not as if it filled some linguistic niche which is now vacant -- the concept can be expressed perfectly well with "nauseating". -- Mike Scott From tsarren at alyra.org Wed Aug 14 23:28:22 2002 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Kat) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 01:28:22 -0500 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814223532.029e7ec0@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814185340.029eeec0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814223532.029e7ec0@localhost> Message-ID: <20020815062822.GF13289@galadriel.alyra.org> On Wed, Aug 14, 2002 at 10:40:03PM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: > At 12:20 AM 8/15/2002 -0500, Kat wrote: > > >Language is one of the ways in which we think. Another that comes to mind > >is > >spatial > I'm not certain what it means to think spatially. Unfortunately I'm not sure I can describe it properly... it's like having a 3-dimensional modelling program in one's head. It isn't just working with visual symbols (i.e., a visual language), it's having a representation of an object, or several objects within a space, and being able to manipulate that representation in the same way one might physically manipulate the objects themselves. For me, at least, there is no language involved. Two other examples of which I can produce - when I'm driving, I'm processing what's going on around me in a purely spatial sense, noting the relative speeds of as many vehicles as possible in my general vicinity, changes in their direction, etc. In this case there almost isn't an internal representation, just external sensory input to which I respond in such a manner that my vehicle doesn't end up in a space that's already occupied or will imminently be occupied by someone else. The second is in a martial art, aikido in my case. Processing all of the factors that make up a person's stability and balance, and pinpointing the vector(s) along which sufficient applied force will change that balance in a desired manner, is entirely non-lingual for me. Hope that helps. > When I drum, I don't think, "Hit the bass, hit the snare, keep > the ride going..." I am thinking in drum terms, which don't directly > translate into language. Yet, the more I learn, the more skill I develop > in mentally working with those symbols. As I "speak the language" better, > I drum better. Being a percussionist, I know *exactly* what you're talking about. ;) Tsarren From mtiller at ntlworld.com Thu Aug 15 00:16:07 2002 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 08:16:07 +0100 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000b01c2442b$a04823c0$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Kat wrote: >> Language is one of the ways in which we think. Another that comes to >> mind is spatial - I make chainmaille and work leather for a living; I >> spend quite a bit of my time thinking spatially rather than lingually, >> and am rather aware of the process of translation from spatial to >> lingual thought that occurs in my mind when I'm talking about maille >> to another mailler. >That is true...I know I think more in images and pictures and stuff than in words. Sometimes, when I grasp a concept or >get an idea, it can take me up to 10 minutes to put it into words. Pictures, Sounds, Feeling are the mode of the Subconcious, that's what it works in, and since creativity is a function of the subconcious that's why you have to "translate" to words which are used by the concious mind. If you want to know more on the subject, study NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming). Regards Mark From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Aug 15 01:03:28 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 15 Aug 2002 03:03:28 -0500 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814185340.029eeec0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> Message-ID: Steven Brust writes: > "Language is subjective, like all things." Well, in the first place, > we're simply going to have to disagree about all things being > subjective. In fact, I believe that there is an objective reality, > and that we will never understand it fully does not relieve us of the > responsibility to try. Reality is what causes our nose to hurt when we attempt to treat a wall as subjective. > But let us pass on to language. Can it simply be dismissed as > "subjective?" I'm not sure. My inclination is to say no. Language > has at least two important uses--first, it is how we think, second, it > is how we communicate our thoughts. Aspects of language take place outside any one individual, and in that sense are not completely subjective. (Like the *other* individuals you wish to communicate with.) > Let us consider the second. The easiest two examples to illustrate my > point would be mathematics and music. Let us consider mathematics. > It is obviously a language--that is, a coherent system of symbols. Is > there any objective truth to the proposition that 2+3=5? Well, sure, > at least insofar as if I pile up two books, add another three to the > pile, I will have five books in the pile. Now, two individuals can > agree that, amongst themselves, they will use the symbol "4" to > represent three. Among the two of them, that would work, so I guess > in that sense language could be considered subjective. But if they > want to communicate with the rest of the world, they really ought to > agree about what symbols mean what. The symbol "5" is arbitrarily chosen to represent the mathematical concept of 5. That concept is pretty "objective", as such things go, even though it's completely intangible. > Obviously, if I write down some sheet music that an F# occurs here for > four bars, and one of the musicians decides that, for his purposes, > "F#" means the chord that rest of us call "C" and that "four bars" > means "six bars" the music will not come out the way I had intended it. > > It seems to me that language, while often subjective, has an objective > element insofar as it is shared. I'm groping after something here. There are at least two kinds (or perhaps a continuum) of "subjective". If you have read some books, and considered them carefully, and discussed them with friends, and decided you don't like them very much (i.e. reached a carefully considered judgement on them), do you much care (in the sense of it being likely to change your opinion) to know that 86.3% of the American population likes those books? On the other hand, if you discovered that 86.3% of people disagreed with you on what chord was "C", would *that* be likely to cause you to change your opinion? In the first case, personal opinion, there's not that much relevance to what other people think. In the other case, consensus reality, it's useful to be in step with other people, particularly as to word usage. And yet both are pretty subjective. We can watch words change their meanings just because people decide they have. > As for English, well, consider that you and I pretty much agree, at > least in general, on what "subjective" means, and that, if we didn't, > we'd be unable to have this delightful discussion. While it is clear > that not all words in English have exact, precise meanings in which > all nuances are completely understood and agreed upon by everyone, > there are two things I believe-- > 1) The more any given group agrees on the meaning of a word, the > better they are able to exchange ideas. > 2) The more we have words available that make clear, nice > distinctions, the more precisely, elegantly, and, ultimately, > creatively we are able to think. > > > Okay, we're off. > > *Now* we're having fun. Yup. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Aug 15 01:08:25 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 15 Aug 2002 03:08:25 -0500 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <200208150456.g7F4uLvk053110@realtime.exit.com> References: <200208150456.g7F4uLvk053110@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: Frank Mayhar writes: > Nytemuse wrote: > > That would depend. What do you mean by "pivotal"? Exactly what role does > > the gene play in establishing language? > > In this case, it is a gene that affects fine voluntary muscular control of > the mouth and larynx. It is a difference in this gene that lets humans have > language and chimpanzees (and the rest) _not_ have language. Except that chimps can be taught sign-language, and will come up with new words, and will pass it on to their children. They may lack the *vocal* control to have language, but they can have it other ways, and their brains can handle it. > In the area of neuropsychology, by the way, there has been a lot of study > of the processing of speech in the brain. (I wanted to say "language," but > it's a lot harder to demonstrate language in general than it is to demonstrate > speech.) It appears that our language ability is, indeed, hardwired, and I > am convinced that further study will only confirm that understanding. There seems to be hardware support for it, is the way I'd put it. "Hardwired" suggests a rather stronger pre-determination of how it will come out than *I*, at least, think the evidence supports. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From FelixEisen at aol.com Thu Aug 15 01:48:10 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 04:48:10 EDT Subject: Having just read... Message-ID: <16f.122a3942.2a8cc4ca@aol.com> ... a) 'My Girlfriend Is A Pagan', I must admit to needing several minutes to recover from the hardest case of suppressed laughter I have ever had. "My girlfriend is a Pagan, who could ask for more? // At the altar she's a heathan, in the bedroom she's just fine." Steve, you never fail to amuse me. ... b) 'War for the Oaks' (Emma Bull), I am pleased to say that I actually recognized 'Boiled in Lead'. For a moment I thought the drummer who comes around and goes onstage was Our Fearless Hero, errr, Steve, but then I checked the BiL page and, well ... okay, so Steve only wrote some music for 'em. BTW -- do you read X-Men, do/did you enjoy the 'Cats Laughing' references made by Kitty Pryde, and in the Excalibur/X-Babies/Kitty Pryde annual, what did that comment mean, about someone being a prince, but in exile? Knightmarshall Felix Surnamed Eisen, or "Iron Felix" Hand of Morr, The Order of Bones From FelixEisen at aol.com Thu Aug 15 01:48:27 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 04:48:27 EDT Subject: Having just read... Message-ID: ... a) 'My Girlfriend Is A Pagan', I must admit to needing several minutes to recover from the hardest case of suppressed laughter I have ever had. "My girlfriend is a Pagan, who could ask for more? // At the altar she's a heathan, in the bedroom she's just fine." Steve, you never fail to amuse me. ... b) 'War for the Oaks' (Emma Bull), I am pleased to say that I actually recognized 'Boiled in Lead'. For a moment I thought the drummer who comes around and goes onstage was Our Fearless Hero, errr, Steve, but then I checked the BiL page and, well ... okay, so Steve only wrote some music for 'em. BTW -- do you read X-Men, do/did you enjoy the 'Cats Laughing' references made by Kitty Pryde, and in the Excalibur/X-Babies/Kitty Pryde annual, what did that comment mean, about someone being a prince, but in exile? Knightmarshall Felix Surnamed Eisen, or "Iron Felix" Hand of Morr, The Order of Bones From FelixEisen at aol.com Thu Aug 15 01:48:27 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 04:48:27 EDT Subject: Having just read... Message-ID: <3f.ffbc24f.2a8cc4db@aol.com> ... a) 'My Girlfriend Is A Pagan', I must admit to needing several minutes to recover from the hardest case of suppressed laughter I have ever had. "My girlfriend is a Pagan, who could ask for more? // At the altar she's a heathan, in the bedroom she's just fine." Steve, you never fail to amuse me. ... b) 'War for the Oaks' (Emma Bull), I am pleased to say that I actually recognized 'Boiled in Lead'. For a moment I thought the drummer who comes around and goes onstage was Our Fearless Hero, errr, Steve, but then I checked the BiL page and, well ... okay, so Steve only wrote some music for 'em. BTW -- do you read X-Men, do/did you enjoy the 'Cats Laughing' references made by Kitty Pryde, and in the Excalibur/X-Babies/Kitty Pryde annual, what did that comment mean, about someone being a prince, but in exile? Knightmarshall Felix Surnamed Eisen, or "Iron Felix" Hand of Morr, The Order of Bones From goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU Thu Aug 15 01:52:35 2002 From: goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (David Goldfarb) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 01:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Having just read... Message-ID: <200208150852.g7F8qZM06509@apocalypse.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> >BTW -- do you read X-Men, do/did you enjoy the 'Cats Laughing' references >made by Kitty Pryde, and in the Excalibur/X-Babies/Kitty Pryde annual, what >did that comment mean, about someone being a prince, but in exile? Read Emma Bull's novel _Falcon_ and that comment will be more clear. -- David Goldfarb <*>|"I'm reconsidering my desire to go to college, as goldfarb at ocf.berkeley.edu | from what I've seen on this group it drives one | immediately and incurably insane." goldfarb at csua.berkeley.edu | -- Aili Contini-Morava, on rec.arts.comics.xbooks From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Thu Aug 15 03:37:28 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 05:37:28 -0500 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) References: <200208150456.g7F4uLvk053110@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: Just being in aggreeance about what something means doesn't make it objective. When we speak or write we are 'formatting' our thoughts so they can be shared, and to many other extents we communicate with our body and it's simple reactions like wincing or wide eyes this is almost involuntary for many. The content of all of those verbalizations can be and almost always is subjective. Language places a thought you wish to convey into terms like '# 5' into both verbal and symbolic representation. That seems fairly arbitrary and feels subjective. If it is true that the concept behind the number 5 in mathematics is objective (becuase saying so is really only a subjective opinion of mine) then words by thier existance are objective and thier uses are generally subjective. When we bend the objective sense of a word because of subjective uses what are we doing? From baralier at optusnet.com.au Thu Aug 15 05:00:32 2002 From: baralier at optusnet.com.au (Baralier) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 22:00:32 +1000 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) References: Message-ID: <013b01c24453$da38b900$18a231d2@valadan> Original Message From: "Nytemuse" > I'll concur on that one. As it is obvious, I use some slang, and also > computer acronyms *hangs head in shame*. But TLAs are l33+ *cough* Baralier -- If you steal from one person, it's plagiarism. If you steal from many, it's research http://members.optushome.com.au/velvetspyder Costumier & Reprobate From baralier at optusnet.com.au Thu Aug 15 05:13:44 2002 From: baralier at optusnet.com.au (Baralier) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 22:13:44 +1000 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) References: Message-ID: <01b601c24455$61bfe4b0$18a231d2@valadan> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nytemuse" To: "Dragaera Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 12:13 PM Subject: Re: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) Original Message From: "Nytemuse" > On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: > > As I understand it, a "boi" is a female who identifies as a submissive male > > in a lesbian relationship. A "boy" identifies a submissive in a gay male > > relationship. > > > > As I understand it, the BDSM community is in a race with the business > > community to see who can do the most damage to our language in the least time. > > Well, maybe in your circles *shrug* I've never heard those definitions > used. But, then again, the goth and BDSM and poly communities will > probably never get organized enough to agree on a unified > dictionary. Well given that we *still* can't agree on "What is goth" do you think we'll ever bother? > Unless we take over the world, or something. *smirk* Sshhhhh! Don't tell them! Baralier -- If you steal from one person, it's plagiarism. If you steal from many, it's research http://members.optushome.com.au/velvetspyder Costumier & Reprobate From baralier at optusnet.com.au Thu Aug 15 05:15:59 2002 From: baralier at optusnet.com.au (Baralier) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 22:15:59 +1000 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814185340.029eeec0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <003001c2440d$a5077c30$883e5418@dontbenosy> Message-ID: <01c801c24455$a797d650$18a231d2@valadan> Original Message From: "Sean" > All true, I think, but consider street lingo. Example: Wack. The first > time I ever heard wack used it had a positive connotation (mid 80s). "That > song is wack!" meaning it was "da bomb", or good. Wack also started out as a euphemism for murder. And it's also a term for masterbation (which may be considered positive or negative depending on who you ask.) Baralier -- If you steal from one person, it's plagiarism. If you steal from many, it's research http://members.optushome.com.au/velvetspyder Costumier & Reprobate From baralier at optusnet.com.au Thu Aug 15 05:15:18 2002 From: baralier at optusnet.com.au (Baralier) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 22:15:18 +1000 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814185340.029eeec0@localhost> Message-ID: <01c701c24455$a7764490$18a231d2@valadan> Original Message From: "Steven Brust" > As I understand it, a "boi" is a female who identifies as a submissive male > in a lesbian relationship. A "boy" identifies a submissive in a gay male > relationship. > > As I understand it, the BDSM community is in a race with the business > community to see who can do the most damage to our language in the least time. Can't say that I've ever heard "boi" used to describe a female of any sort either in or out of a BDSM community. Could be an American thing. But given the number of online Americans I'm in contact with I would have thought I'd have come across the term before. Baralier -- If you steal from one person, it's plagiarism. If you steal from many, it's research http://members.optushome.com.au/velvetspyder Costumier & Reprobate From baralier at optusnet.com.au Thu Aug 15 05:16:48 2002 From: baralier at optusnet.com.au (Baralier) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 22:16:48 +1000 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain References: Message-ID: <01c901c24455$a7bc9c60$18a231d2@valadan> Original Message From: "Alan Halsted" > Unless they moved, they used to be neatly situated in the Flatiron Building > in NYC, on the floor below the St Martin's Press office. (Jeez, I miss the > old life sometimes...) Yes but all speak strangely over there. Not like us here hey Alan :-) Baralier -- If you steal from one person, it's plagiarism. If you steal from many, it's research http://members.optushome.com.au/velvetspyder Costumier & Reprobate From mtiller at ntlworld.com Thu Aug 15 05:21:29 2002 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:21:29 +0100 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <20020815062822.GF13289@galadriel.alyra.org> Message-ID: <000501c24456$48984490$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> >Unfortunately I'm not sure I can describe it properly... it's like having a 3-dimensional modelling program in one's head. >It isn't just working with visual symbols (i.e., a visual language), it's having a representation of an object, or several >objects within a space, and being able to manipulate that representation in the same way one might physically manipulate >the objects themselves. For me, at least, there is no language involved. I know exactly what you're talking about, I do it all the time. I'm going to have to disagree with Steven, Language is NOT how we think, it's how we communicate. We think at the subconcious level in the Pictures, Sounds and Feelings at least that's how memory is organised. We may CHOOSE at the concious level to verbalise our thoughts, it's good if we are trying to follow a logic chain. But thinking in pictures is much faster as in a picture's worth a thousand words. I do agree that it's an agreed set fo standards among people, at least for physical objects...It's a little more difficult when we are trying to discuss honor or duty...That's why trying to discuss God with someone is just about pointless. No physical referents. Regards Mark P.S. Kat, the ability you describe is regarded as a prerequisite for being a good computer programmer...or at least for findig it easy. From usagigoya at hotmail.com Thu Aug 15 06:43:54 2002 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:43:54 +0000 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain Message-ID: >What would I do with a bunch of heads? what else, throw a wild party!!! _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Aug 15 06:48:10 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 09:48:10 -0400 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 09:43 AM, Steve Hubbell wrote: > > > > >> What would I do with a bunch of heads? > > what else, throw a wild party!!! > Use them as inspiration for a sequel to Agyar? From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Aug 15 07:19:06 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 10:19:06 EDT Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) Message-ID: In a message dated 8/15/2002 6:15:02 AM Mountain Daylight Time, baralier at optusnet.com.au writes: > Wack also started out as a euphemism for murder. Um, no. You're getting it confused with a homophone - whack. Whack was a slang (I don't think I'd call it a euphenism, really) term for killing/murdering someone. From mneme at io.com Thu Aug 15 07:52:39 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 09:52:39 -0500 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15707.49207.853318.436410@hagbard.io.com> Alan Halsted writes: >Unless they moved, they used to be neatly situated in the Flatiron Building >in NYC, on the floor below the St Martin's Press office. (Jeez, I miss the >old life sometimes...) Unless they moved between yesterday and today, I'd stay they are still on the 14th floor of the Flatiron... :) -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From l3iol2iot at hotmail.com Thu Aug 15 07:54:47 2002 From: l3iol2iot at hotmail.com (Chuck Evans) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 10:54:47 -0400 Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain Message-ID: >>>What would I do with a bunch of heads? >> >>what else, throw a wild party!!! > >Use them as inspiration for a sequel to Agyar? What does he evolve, or devolve rather, into a zombie? _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From books at bofh.com Thu Aug 15 08:30:23 2002 From: books at bofh.com (books at bofh.com) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 08:30:23 -0700 (MST) Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 15 Aug 2002 03:03:28 -0500" References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814185340.029eeec0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> Message-ID: <01KLBJNCPGQO0013MG@chud.net> >> there any objective truth to the proposition that 2+3=5? Well, sure, ObMildlyOffTopicQuote: "2+2=4, even for very large values of 2". -Jot From mam at theworld.com Thu Aug 15 08:47:46 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 11:47:46 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Merci beaucoup! -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Thu Aug 15 09:15:22 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:15:22 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <200208150456.g7F4uLvk053110@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: I've been trying to stay out of this discussion, not because it doesn't interest me or I have nothing to say on it, but for the opposite reason: It interests me very much and I have a great deal to say on it -- and, I daresay, to contribute, linguistics being my lifelong profession. But I'm afraid of being pulled in too deeply when I'm preparing for a new job with lots of arrangements to be made. But I couldn't help myself with one or two corrections that I hope won't be too controversial. On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Frank Mayhar wrote: #In this case, it is a gene that affects fine voluntary muscular control of #the mouth and larynx. It is a difference in this gene that lets humans have #language and chimpanzees (and the rest) _not_ have language. *Spoken* language. Signed languages, obviously, do not require the control affected by this gene. And signed languages 1. are not simple code-like translations of spoken languages 2. are not pantomime 3. are not universal (Many people seem to believe all of these myths, not recognizing that 1 and 3 are directly contradictory.) (Credentials, to show that I know something of what I'm talking about here. I received my Ph.D. in linguistics from UC Berkeley, 1981. I wrote my dissertation on American Sign Language ("Phonotactics and morphophonology in American Sign Language"). At the LabPhon8 conference at Yale at the end of this past June, much to my astonishment and gratification, people were coming up and saying things like "*The* Mark Mandel?" and "You know, we still haven't answered some of the questions you raised.") There is a respectable theory that signed language preceded spoken language and may have in some ways paved the way for it. Unfortunately, AFAIK the general opinion is currently that this theory probably can't be either proved or disproved, short of a time television to watch our distant ancestors. #Given that there is an objective basis for language, I find it difficult to #accept that very much at all of it can be truly "subjective," at least in #a way that cannot be expressed and explained given sufficient understanding #of ourselves. Much of the mechanisms that underlie language are probably genetically influenced: "objective". A very great deal of the actualization is arbitrary, and this definitely includes most of the link between a meaning and the sounds with which it is expressed: "subjective" in that it is not physically determined, but partially "objective" in that it resides in the society, not in the individual. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Aug 15 09:24:50 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 09:24:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) Message-ID: <200208151624.g7FGOao11153@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > As I understand it, the BDSM community is in a race with the business > community to see who can do the most damage to our language in the least time. LOL!! OK, now THAT'S funny!!! (and true...:) Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From mam at theworld.com Thu Aug 15 09:26:21 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:26:21 -0400 Subject: OT: language (was: Sethra Lavode...) In-Reply-To: <000b01c2442b$a04823c0$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Mark Tiller wrote: [Kat] #>That is true...I know I think more in images and pictures and stuff #than in words. Sometimes, when I grasp a concept or >get an idea, it #can take me up to 10 minutes to put it into words. # #Pictures, Sounds, Feeling are the mode of the Subconcious, that's what #it works in, and since creativity is a function of the subconcious #that's why you have to "translate" to words which are used by the #concious mind. Oh, I disagree on that! I think in pictures and spatial relationships when I'm trying to fit things into spaces, like packing luggage into my car. I think in sounds when I'm composing a song or trying to work out chords to fit a tune. I think in feeling when I'm deciding what to wear and considering fit and comfort. And all these thought processes are as conscious as what I do when I think in words to compose a paragraph like this one. The difference is that in order to communicate the first three to another person, I usually have to translate them into words: to *communicate*, not to *think*. And that's "usually", not "always". If I were collaborating on packing with someone I shared no language with, we would use nonlinguistic gestures. If I were working on a song with someone, I'd say, "How about this?", and play what I was thinking of. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Aug 15 09:40:40 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 09:40:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) Message-ID: <200208151640.g7FGeQo14211@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > > but who > >cares. Language is subjective, like all things. > > Oh, how splendid! An argument! > > Uh oh, Nytemuse, what did you start now?!? > As for English, well, consider that you and I pretty much agree, at least > in general, on what "subjective" means, and that, if we didn't, we'd be > unable to have this delightful discussion. While it is clear that not all > words in English have exact, precise meanings in which all nuances are > completely understood and agreed upon by everyone, there are two things I > believe-- > 1) The more any given group agrees on the meaning of a word, the better > they are able to exchange ideas. > 2) The more we have words available that make clear, nice distinctions, the > more precisely, elegantly, and, ultimately, creatively we are able to think. I believe I agree. At any rate, I've always felt it would be better to create new words for new concepts and ideas, rather than change the meaning of old words. At the same time, words are constantly being "slanged", and new definitions are being forced onto sometimes long-standing words. I think, because of a lack of understanding of actual definitions, people generaly don't know what a word is supposed to mean, and only knows its definition by its source or the definition a reader/ user will give to it at the time. Someone reading the word "subjective" might not know the actual definition, and may assume it has something to do with, say, the subject of a sentence. It doesn't help, either, that different dictionaries can offer slight variations of definition. (A friend of mine just bought (from a bookstore-owner friend) the "OED" - Oxford English Dictionary. 20 VOLUME set. For those SERIOUS english majors!!:) I do agree with Brust's two points above. It would be immensly easier (and, imo better) if we agreed on the meanings of words, and if they made those clear, nice distinctions... Wishful thinking, I know... :) Chris "So farewell hope, and with hope, farewell fear, Farewell remorse! All good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my Good" - John Milton - 'Paradise Lost' From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Aug 15 10:11:08 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 15 Aug 2002 12:11:08 -0500 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <000501c24456$48984490$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> References: <000501c24456$48984490$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> Message-ID: "Mark Tiller" writes: > >Unfortunately I'm not sure I can describe it properly... it's like > having a 3-dimensional modelling program in one's head. >It isn't just > working with visual symbols (i.e., a visual language), it's having a > representation of an object, or several >objects within a space, and > being able to manipulate that representation in the same way one might > physically manipulate >the objects themselves. For me, at least, there > is no language involved. > > I know exactly what you're talking about, I do it all the time. > > I'm going to have to disagree with Steven, Language is NOT how we think, > it's how we communicate. We think at the subconcious level in the > Pictures, Sounds and Feelings at least that's how memory is organised. > We may CHOOSE at the concious level to verbalise our thoughts, it's good > if we are trying to follow a logic chain. But thinking in pictures is > much faster as in a picture's worth a thousand words. Sure, maybe a picture is worth 1000 words. But... 1. Only the thousand words that describe *that picture*. 2. It takes about 30k of bandwidth to deliver that 6k worth of content :-). (I say this as a photographer, most of shose bandwidth is expended serving pictures, often at more than 30k each....) > P.S. Kat, the ability you describe is regarded as a prerequisite for > being a good computer programmer...or at least for findig it easy. I'm a counterexample. To me "non-verbal thought" is an oxymoron. Writing badly is to me a clear sign of thinking unclearly. And so forth. (Professional software developer since I was 15 years old, in 1969). I also do reasonably well taking things apart and putting them together, for that matter. I think it's why I can often give *useful instructions* about this stuff to other people. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Aug 15 10:17:30 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 10:17:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) Message-ID: <200208151717.g7FHHHo21359@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > I'm going to have to disagree with Steven, Language is NOT how we think, > it's how we communicate. We think at the subconcious level in the > Pictures, Sounds and Feelings at least that's how memory is organised. > We may CHOOSE at the concious level to verbalise our thoughts, it's good > if we are trying to follow a logic chain. But thinking in pictures is > much faster as in a picture's worth a thousand words. Hmmm... Yes and no. It's hard to say exactly what one "Thinks" in, as we're all different. I know, however, that when you want to describe (in your head), say, the taste of an apple you just bit into, you wouldn't think in feelings, pictures, or sounds, you'd think in words. In this case: juicy, yummy, ew-yuck, etc. I'll agree that memory may be "organized" by sight, sound and feeling, and we can even access those memories and see those. But once having accessed a piece of memory, the only way to describe it, to ourselves or to others, is through language. Which is all to say that I believe we think in both language and feelings. Actualy, I believe we think because of slight electrical impulses running around in our brains, and scientists haven't even discovered exactly why this makes us "think". Silly scientists, go feed Cthulhu!! :) Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From moghan_david at yahoo.com Thu Aug 15 10:27:53 2002 From: moghan_david at yahoo.com (Robert Opramolla) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 10:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814172722.02a348d0@localhost> Message-ID: <20020815172753.1974.qmail@web20422.mail.yahoo.com> Steven Brust wrote: At 03:53 PM 8/14/2002 -0700, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > I was one of the first on this list. If anyone deserves a free gift, > > it's me :-) > >Oh, yeah?!? Well...uh... I make sacrificial offerings of >small, furry animals to Brust during full moons!! Is *that* where those damned things are coming from? Cut it out. I can't get rid of 'em. Now, if you were to offer cute little Asian girls who want to be chained up and beaten, we could talk.... There is so much that is wrong with the above statements. I don't know where to begin. So very, very wrong! Rob --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs From casey at trinityhartford.org Thu Aug 15 10:37:11 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:37:11 -0400 Subject: language (was: Sethra Lavode...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark Mandel wrote: > would use nonlinguistic gestures. If I were working on a song with > someone, I'd say, "How about this?", and play what I was thinking of. You might even be able to drop the "How about this?" depending on the context (Jazz). We communicate in a wide variety of non-linguistic manners all the time. As for thinking, much of my thought has little if any connection to language as I understand it. I would echo the spatial/visual description of the process. Isn't there a physiological connection to the translation of creative thought into language? The whole left/right brain theory, thin vs. thick corpus callosum , etc. I'm way out of date even with lay understanding of all of this, but did the genetic study address any physiological connections to go with the observations on language acquisition? These distinctions also contribute to the difference between verbal and nonverbal expression. David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > I'm a counterexample. To me "non-verbal thought" is an oxymoron. > Writing badly is to me a clear sign of thinking unclearly. And so > forth. (Professional software developer since I was 15 years old, in > 1969). > > I also do reasonably well taking things apart and putting them > together, for that matter. I think it's why I can often give *useful > instructions* about this stuff to other people. I'd say this is an indication that you have both strong verbal thinking ability and strong spatial/visual thinking ability along with a facility that has been described to me as dependent on the physical structure of the corpus callosum to translate the latter using the former in order to communicate it to another person. The only other contribution I have time to add at the moment is to point to two examples of language "growth", while at the same time affirming that I do not like the use of office as a verb or different as an adverb. (A different way to office. Think different.) 1) How many meanings can you think of for the simple monosyllabic English word 'box'? How many of them are new in your lifetime? 2) There is a children's book _Frindle_ http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0689818769 that is worth checking out (at your local library or bookseller as you choose I am not intending to advertise for Amazon). Casey From scs at di.org Thu Aug 15 10:27:22 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:27:22 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) Message-ID: <20020815172721.GA12213@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Boralier writes: > Can't say that I've ever heard "boi" used to describe a female of any > sort either in or out of a BDSM community. One characteristic of small, inwardly facing communities is a fast pace of change in slang. I spent a year on the periphery of the gay community in LA, then went back once a year or so for the next five years. During that time the word `nelly' moved from being applied to a passive male in a homosexual pair to a passive female in a pair, the word `diesel' was replaced by `butch', and `chicken' went from being an underage boy to a pseudo oh-I've-never-done-this-before adult male. I'd be willing to be there are regionalisms, too. -- It is far more impressive when others discover your good qualities, without hour help. -- Chuck Pyle 'The Zen Cowboy' http://www.chuckpyle.com/bio.html From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Aug 15 10:45:49 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:45:49 EDT Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain Message-ID: <18d.c7bf2b8.2a8d42cd@aol.com> On 8/15/2002 moghan_david at yahoo wrote "Theres so much wrong that is with the above statements. So ...very wrong." Yeah, so what? We are all adults-maybe? right? huh? Hey guys theres kids out there!!!!!!! Are any of them willing to be tied up? John Barbato "Over the edge into oblivion lies a path to greater glory and the eternal inferno." St. Eliasas of the order of elemental searching From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Aug 15 10:47:29 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 10:47:29 -0700 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <20020815062822.GF13289@galadriel.alyra.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814223532.029e7ec0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814185340.029eeec0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814223532.029e7ec0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814235906.00a8cc60@localhost> At 01:28 AM 8/15/2002 -0500, Kat wrote: >Two other examples of which I can produce - when I'm driving, I'm processing >what's going on around me in a purely spatial sense, noting the relative >speeds of as many vehicles as possible in my general vicinity, changes in >their direction, etc. In this case there almost isn't an internal >representation, just external sensory input to which I respond in such a >manner that my vehicle doesn't end up in a space that's already occupied or >will imminently be occupied by someone else. > >The second is in a martial art, aikido in my case. Processing all of the >factors that make up a person's stability and balance, and pinpointing the >vector(s) along which sufficient applied force will change that balance in a >desired manner, is entirely non-lingual for me. > >Hope that helps. What you are talking about is exactly the same thing happens to me under those circumstances, but I don't call it thinking spatially, I am just aware that my thinking, under those conditions, is not happening in English, but in terms appropriate to the skills being used. You call it thinking spatially, I call it thinking in the language of those skills. That it is, at some level in my mind, I am still manipulating a set of symbols. Facility, or it's lack, with the language of those skills is one of the main things that limits our abilities. Mmm...is this making sense? From nytemuse at auros.org Thu Aug 15 10:49:35 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 10:49:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain In-Reply-To: <18d.c7bf2b8.2a8d42cd@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > On 8/15/2002 moghan_david at yahoo wrote > "Theres so much wrong that is with the above statements. So ...very wrong." > Yeah, so what? We are all adults-maybe? right? huh? > Hey guys theres kids out there!!!!!!! > Are any of them willing to be tied up? Speaking of ambiguous...you asking if any kids are willing to be tied up, or any of us? ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Aug 15 10:56:09 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:56:09 EDT Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain Message-ID: <1a8.6d134bf.2a8d4539@aol.com> in response to nytemuse: I refuse to answer on the grounds that I will be inundated with death threat e-mails. john barbato From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Aug 15 10:56:28 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 10:56:28 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815104810.029f41c0@localhost> At 07:26 AM 8/15/2002 +0100, Mike Scott wrote: >Steven Brust writes: > > > And it is worth mentioning that some dictionaries are more willing > > accept changes than others. My American Heritage dictionary does not > > agree with Miriam-Webster about what "nauseous" means. Certainly, > > when we insist on the more precise, useful term we are fighting a > > rear-guard action, and are probably doomed. But I consider it a fight > > worth waging anyway. > >I'd have to disagree that the older meaning of "nauseous" is either >more precise or more useful. It seems to me that both meanings are >about equally precise, just different. Uh...that is clearly not the case. There was already a word for the other, "nauseating." Now, if we accept Webster, there is no single word that means what "nauseous" used to mean. Thus our language is now weaker, not stronger. > And if it was more useful in >its older role, it would probably have stayed in it. The argument that it changed therefore it is useful and good will not, I think, stand up to close examination. To take the classic case, most people have now accepted "hopefully" to mean something vaguely like, "I hope," "you should hope," "we hope," and "all right thinking people ought to hope," all rolled into one. It is less precise than any of those, and longer than half of them (what people usually mean is, "I hope" which is shorter). And the older, more useful sense of, "with a hopeful attitude" is now difficult to say. The change has pretty much happened, but I cannot imagine how it could be construed as improving the language. > It's not as if it >filled some linguistic niche which is now vacant -- the concept can be >expressed perfectly well with "nauseating". So, you want to completely swap the two meanings? I suppose that would give us something, but, hitherto, it has not happened. And if it did, it would be really ugly. "How are you today?" "I shouldn't have eaten the dog, because I'm really nauseating." No, I don't think I like that. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Aug 15 10:59:56 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 10:59:56 -0700 Subject: Having just read... In-Reply-To: <16f.122a3942.2a8cc4ca@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815105845.00abb530@localhost> At 04:48 AM 8/15/2002 -0400, FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: >... b) 'War for the Oaks' (Emma Bull), I am pleased to say that I actually >recognized 'Boiled in Lead'. For a moment I thought the drummer who comes >around and goes onstage was Our Fearless Hero, errr, Steve, but then I >checked the BiL page and, well ... okay, so Steve only wrote some music for >'em. Actually, that drummer is Robin Adnan Anders, my drum teacher, and the model for Aibynn. >BTW -- do you read X-Men, do/did you enjoy the 'Cats Laughing' references >made by Kitty Pryde, and in the Excalibur/X-Babies/Kitty Pryde annual, what >did that comment mean, about someone being a prince, but in exile? No, yes, and didn't see it. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Aug 15 11:11:39 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 11:11:39 -0700 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814185340.029eeec0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815110514.029c2d90@localhost> At 03:03 AM 8/15/2002 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >Steven Brust writes: > > > "Language is subjective, like all things." Well, in the first place, > > we're simply going to have to disagree about all things being > > subjective. In fact, I believe that there is an objective reality, > > and that we will never understand it fully does not relieve us of the > > responsibility to try. > >Reality is what causes our nose to hurt when we attempt to treat a >wall as subjective. Oh yes, very nice. >Aspects of language take place outside any one individual, and in that >sense are not completely subjective. (Like the *other* individuals >you wish to communicate with.) Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at. >In the first case, personal opinion, there's not that much relevance >to what other people think. In the other case, consensus reality, >it's useful to be in step with other people, particularly as to word >usage. And yet both are pretty subjective. We can watch words change >their meanings just because people decide they have. Okay, that makes sense. From rone at ennui.org Thu Aug 15 11:20:32 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 11:20:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: language (was: Sethra Lavode...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020815182032.55D7626E2B@boredom.ennui.org> Casey Rousseau writes: The only other contribution I have time to add at the moment is to point to two examples of language "growth", while at the same time affirming that I do not like the use of office as a verb or different as an adverb. (A different way to office. Think different.) That seems to be more peculiar to English than other languages, though. But i expect that mocking English's shortcomings will only result in people rallying in an attempt to turn them into strengths, which will in turn make me wish we'd stuck to discussing sexual perversions. rone and what is a greater sexual perversion that discussing what language is or isn't? why, it's my favorite form of foreplay... -- {Reagan's} presidency always reminded me of a remark made by a woman to Heywood Broun following Secretariat's victory in the Triple Crown. After the trauma of Vietnam and Watergate, she said, Secretariat had "restored her faith in humanity." I like to think Reagan was the Secretariat of the eighties. - Garry Trudeau From rone at ennui.org Thu Aug 15 11:22:57 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 11:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815104810.029f41c0@localhost> Message-ID: <20020815182257.DB1F026E25@boredom.ennui.org> Steven Brust writes: So, you want to completely swap the two meanings? I suppose that would give us something, but, hitherto, it has not happened. And if it did, it would be really ugly. "How are you today?" "I shouldn't have eaten the dog, because I'm really nauseating." No, I don't think I like that. We could banish "nauseous" and stick with "nauseating" and "nauseated". That's what i do, in order to avoid pedants. rone -- {Reagan's} presidency always reminded me of a remark made by a woman to Heywood Broun following Secretariat's victory in the Triple Crown. After the trauma of Vietnam and Watergate, she said, Secretariat had "restored her faith in humanity." I like to think Reagan was the Secretariat of the eighties. - Garry Trudeau From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Aug 15 11:23:29 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 11:23:29 -0700 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <000b01c2442b$a04823c0$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815111616.00abc730@localhost> At 08:16 AM 8/15/2002 +0100, Mark Tiller wrote: >Pictures, Sounds, Feeling are the mode of the Subconcious, that's what >it works in, and since creativity is a function of the subconcious >that's why you have to "translate" to words which are used by the >concious mind. I certainly cannot accept that creativity is a function of the subconscious. Indeed, the more I learn, the more I become conscious of different aspects of technique, and the more creative I get. I am not terribly creative as a trap-drummer or guitarist or singer, because, to be blunt, I'm not all that good at those things. I haven't learned enough of their particular language to go much beyond certain rote techniques. On the other hand, I have made a fairly serious study of the doumbek (a middle eastern percussion instrument). I am able to be *much* more creative in playing it than when playing any of the others, because my technique is stronger, my thinking in, if you will, drumereese, is more precise and elegant, my awareness of possibilities is more open to my conscious mind, and so my options increase and a certain amount of creativity has become possible. Reducto ad absurdum--try being creative in a language you do not speak. From mike at plokta.com Thu Aug 15 11:25:59 2002 From: mike at plokta.com (Mike Scott) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 19:25:59 +0100 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815104810.029f41c0@localhost> (Steven Brust's message of "Thu, 15 Aug 2002 10:56:28 -0700") References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815104810.029f41c0@localhost> Message-ID: Steven Brust writes: > Uh...that is clearly not the case. There was already a word for the > other, "nauseating." Now, if we accept Webster, there is no single > word that means what "nauseous" used to mean. Thus our language is > now weaker, not stronger. There have always been alternatives for *both* meanings of "nauseous"; nauseating and nauseated. "Nauseous" switching from one meaning to the other has no particular affect on the language one way or the other. > The argument that it changed therefore it is useful and good will not, > I think, stand up to close examination. To take the classic case, > most people have now accepted "hopefully" to mean something vaguely > like, "I hope," "you should hope," "we hope," and "all right thinking > people ought to hope," all rolled into one. It is less precise than > any of those, and longer than half of them (what people usually mean > is, "I hope" which is shorter). And the older, more useful sense of, > "with a hopeful attitude" is now difficult to say. The change has > pretty much happened, but I cannot imagine how it could be construed > as improving the language. Sure it could. There is clearly a linguistic niche for a gerundive meaning "it is to be hoped". English doesn't *have* gerundives, formally speaking, but the ever-adaptable English language has bolted a secondary usage onto a little-used adverb in order to construct one where it is formally not allowed. I can only see this as a strength, and a useful adaptation that is to be encouraged (which last construction is another place where a gerundive would come in useful, although unfortunately there's no handy adverb that can be co-opted in this instance). From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Aug 15 11:29:19 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 11:29:19 -0700 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <000501c24456$48984490$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> References: <20020815062822.GF13289@galadriel.alyra.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815112401.029e8130@localhost> At 01:21 PM 8/15/2002 +0100, Mark Tiller wrote: >I'm going to have to disagree with Steven, Language is NOT how we think, >it's how we communicate. We think at the subconcious level in the >Pictures, Sounds and Feelings at least that's how memory is organised. I do not believe that can be called "thinking" as the term is usually understood. It is certainly not cognition. Remember that a great deal besides thinking goes on in the brain. In the case of my dog--well, but that's another issue. Certainly, not all thinking takes place in our native language (although obviously a great deal does). >We may CHOOSE at the concious level to verbalise our thoughts, it's good >if we are trying to follow a logic chain. But thinking in pictures is >much faster as in a picture's worth a thousand words. I have often closed my eyes and called up a pleasing picture. That is not thinking, that is exercising my memory. If I make conclusions about that picture, such as, "I'd like to go back to that beach," or, "I wonder what she's up to today?" I am thinking. But sometimes--often--those pictures merely call up emotion, they bring with them feelings. That is *feeling* it is not *thinking*. God, this is fun! From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Aug 15 11:32:23 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 14:32:23 EDT Subject: language (was: Sethra Lavode...) Message-ID: <155.128bd6a2.2a8d4db7@aol.com> I, too, unfortunately do not have the time to get entangled into this fascinating discussion, but two quotes sprang to mind: Quote #1 "When *I* use a word, " Humpty Dumpty said in a rathe scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alive, "whether you *can* make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all." ~~~Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass Quote #2 "If one man says whore and another hears hoar, of what use it it? Speech, no matter how eloquent, is not communication. If one man draws a star and another sees a cross, of what use is it? Pictures, even if they contain color, even if they move, are not communication. If a man caresses a woman and the woman feels the blade of a knife, of what use is it? Touch, no matter how deeply felt, is not communication. For a communication to happen, the construct in one mind must be duplicated by another mind." (Foeti pno-Kaiel, creche teacher of the maran-Kaiel) ~~Donald Kingsbury, Courtship Rite From nytemuse at auros.org Thu Aug 15 11:33:40 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 11:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815111616.00abc730@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: > >Pictures, Sounds, Feeling are the mode of the Subconcious, that's what > >it works in, and since creativity is a function of the subconcious > >that's why you have to "translate" to words which are used by the > >concious mind. > I certainly cannot accept that creativity is a function of the > subconscious. Indeed, the more I learn, the more I become conscious of > different aspects of technique, and the more creative I get. I am not I totally agree...I always thought that creativity was a collaboration of the conscious and...well, some other part. Maybe the subconscious, maybe something else. But the more I consciously know about a topic or audience etc, the more creative an idea I can come up with. But I don't think it's just a conscious mind thing. ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Aug 15 11:40:27 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 14:40:27 EDT Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) Message-ID: on 8/15/2002: skzb wrote "Okay, that makes sense." in response to DBB writing "in thr first case, personal opinion, thers not that much relevance to what other people think. In other cases, consensus reality, it's useful to be in step with other people, particularly as to word usage. And yet both are pretty subjective. We can watch words change thier meaning just because people decide they have." All of communication between two people is made by consensus of reality. When two people do not agree on reality, no communication can take place. For example- I say ' That is a bad haircut.' You respond ' Thankyou, I like it too.' If we agree that a 'bad haircut ' is not desirable then the response makes no sense. If we agree that a 'bad haircut' is desirable then it does make sense. If the "bad haircut' is not desirable then communication has broken down and left me in a state of confusion. Therefore- no communication. It is like the conversation never took place or even worse, it leaves my communication line in a state of confusion and I am unable to effectively communicate due to the confusion over the 'bad haircut' inference. L. Ron Hubbard writes extensively on communication and bad vs good communication and the importance of agreement on reality in order for communication to take place. If this conversation interests you, I recomend that you read Dianetics or Handbook of Scientolgy, both by the aforementioned author. No, I am not a scientologist. I like philosophy, and L Ron Hubbard produced one of the most profound and interesting philosophies of the twentieth century. (In my opinion.) John Barbato From dar at horusinc.com Thu Aug 15 11:44:20 2002 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:44:20 -0500 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814235906.00a8cc60@localhost> Message-ID: > What you are talking about is exactly the same thing happens to me under > those circumstances, but I don't call it thinking spatially, I am just > aware that my thinking, under those conditions, is not happening in > English, but in terms appropriate to the skills being used. You call it > thinking spatially, I call it thinking in the language of those > skills. That it is, at some level in my mind, I am still manipulating a > set of symbols. Facility, or it's lack, with the language of > those skills > is one of the main things that limits our abilities. > > Mmm...is this making sense? Certainly, but as another point. Being able to think creatively with a skill/symbol set doesn't mean you can translate it. For example: My JKD instructor is a great martial artist, he's well educated, and an all around nice guy. He is not however the greatest instructor when it comes to translating body mechanics. He can demonstrate at speeds which will allow you to see what he's doing, talk generally about balance, where to put your feet, why you are doing things, etc., and is otherwise an excellent instructor. But try and get him to define '30% speed' or '50% force' and he's always way off (and to the high end also, ), or where a balance point is for other people. My wife's instructor (various arts), who has no higher education that I know of, can do so in language that a seven year old can understand. David From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Thu Aug 15 11:52:23 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:52:23 -0500 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814185340.029eeec0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815110514.029c2d90@localhost> Message-ID: <3D5BF867.64484A95@attbi.com> Steve and David, I stand with you. One for all and all for one! Mia From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Aug 15 11:58:21 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 11:58:21 -0700 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815111616.00abc730@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815115727.029ea070@localhost> At 11:33 AM 8/15/2002 -0700, Nytemuse wrote: >I totally agree...I always thought that creativity was a collaboration of >the conscious and...well, some other part. Maybe the subconscious, maybe >something else. But the more I consciously know about a topic or audience >etc, the more creative an idea I can come up with. But I don't think it's >just a conscious mind thing. In _Literature and Revolution_ Trotsky refers to inspiration as, "The creative unity of the conscious and the unconscious." I've always liked that. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Aug 15 12:01:22 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:01:22 -0700 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <3D5BF867.64484A95@attbi.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814185340.029eeec0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815110514.029c2d90@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815120056.029f10f0@localhost> At 01:52 PM 8/15/2002 -0500, Mia McDavid wrote: >Steve and David, > >I stand with you. One for all and all for one! > >Mia Three of us now? Dare I believe we have a chance? No, but we shall fall nobly. From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Thu Aug 15 12:07:36 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 14:07:36 -0500 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) References: Message-ID: <3D5BFBF8.49D1DC3E@attbi.com> Language . . . I have a contribution to make about the nature and development of language and thought. A young child may have good receptive language but a great deal of trouble learning to talk--oral-motor dyspraxis. If this child cannot master functional language by the age of about 7, s/he will never, no matter what later developments occur, be able to advance to symbolic language; to the abstract thought. Philosophy, theology, honor, duty, ideals, will forever be a closed book to this person; and for this reason, history, politics, economics, literature. A developmental window closes, and a mind is forever crippled. So--Do we think in language. No, if it's food or tools or cloth or anything else we can see and touch. Beyond that, language is absolutely imperative for thought: The thoughts are literally impossible without the language to couch them in. Mia McDavid From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Thu Aug 15 12:05:50 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:05:50 -0700 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <3D5B2788.20900@networkharmoni.com.au> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814185340.029eeec0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <3D5B2788.20900@networkharmoni.com.au> Message-ID: <20020815190550.GA10305@ofb.net> On Thu, Aug 15, 2002 at 12:01:12PM +0800, Andrew Bailey wrote: > "In my opinion, you will be very fortunate to get this person to work > for you." > > This statement has two distict and contradictory meanings, > hence it is up to the reader to interpret. But only two meanings. It does not mean "I just saw an elephant fly into the White House" or any other of an infinite possibility of meanings. There has been communication, even if the missing bit of data in this case is crucial for your hiring decision... > If the reader is intrepreting a statement, does that not mean, > by definition, that the statement is subjective? The statement, as a string of words someone uttered, is an objective fact. The intention of the speaker is usually an objective fact (leaving aside complications of competing mental processes within one brain) although not necessarily an objectively determinable fact, until brain scans get much better. The meaning the listener derives from interpreting the sentence is a third objective fact. The process of interpretation is yet another objective fact, but one operating within the listener's brain, and one which is not necessarily the same as the process which produced the statement in the first place, thus original intention and derived meaning may not be the same. Thus subjectivity. But for communication to happen the two processes should be highly similar, leading to similarity or identity between intention and meaning. That _is_ communication. (At least, of facts, and even of fiction and poetry, leaving aside complications of deception and emotional reassurance.) > So is it time to start talking about "relative truths" and > post-modernism yet? My relative truth is "post-modernism is a crock of shit". Refute! -xx- Damien X-) From casey at trinityhartford.org Thu Aug 15 12:08:34 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:08:34 -0400 Subject: language, Vlad's description of magic (was: OT: bois, etc.) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815112401.029e8130@localhost> Message-ID: Steven Brust wrote: > >We may CHOOSE at the concious level to verbalise our thoughts, it's good > >if we are trying to follow a logic chain. But thinking in pictures is > >much faster as in a picture's worth a thousand words. > > I have often closed my eyes and called up a pleasing picture. > That is not thinking, that is exercising my memory. If I make conclusions > about that picture, such as, "I'd like to go back to that beach," or, "I > wonder what she's up to today?" I am thinking. But sometimes--often-- > those pictures merely call up emotion, they bring with them feelings. > That is *feeling* it is not *thinking*. > > God, this is fun! I would hope so. :) I wonder how Vlad would compare all this talk of thinking/communication/language to his sort of magic. I was just reading Jhereg again last night and was struck by a few things (pp4-5, Prologue). Quotes out of context, apologies for typos, I hope (almost wrote "hopefully" :)) that everyone has access to it and can refer to the entire passage.[1] "With my body relaxed, my mind had no choice but to follow." "I held each one for a moment, feeling its shape and texture, letting the soot rub off on my palms." "Of course, one can always just cast one's mind out, concentrating on the desired result, and hope. The odds of success that way aren't very good." "As I said each word, I *cast* it, sending it out into the jungle as far and as clearly as I could."[2] "I agonized over each word, each syllable, exploring it, letting my tongue and mouth linger over and taste each of the sounds, and willing my brain to full understanding of each of the thoughts that I was sending." [1] As in scripture, quotes can refer to much more than simply the text they contain, rather they should be understood to refer to the text that contains them. [2] In the text the emphasis on cast is provided by italics. Casey, who really should be wrapping up things at work before going on vacation next week. -- "The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offence." ?Edsger W. Dijkstra, How do we tell truths that might hurt? From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Aug 15 12:07:10 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:07:10 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815104810.029f41c0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815104810.029f41c0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815120226.029f19a0@localhost> At 07:25 PM 8/15/2002 +0100, Mike Scott wrote: > The change has > > pretty much happened, but I cannot imagine how it could be construed > > as improving the language. > >Sure it could. There is clearly a linguistic niche for a gerundive >meaning "it is to be hoped". Why? That is, what does "it is to be hoped" mean? It is to be hoped by *whom*? By persons unknown? Why say that? By you? Then say, "I hope." By me? Then say, "You should hope." By all right-thinking people? Then say that. Why this insistence on vagueness? In fact, "hopefully" in its vague use developed from the German word that sounds like it but that I can't possibly spell--something like huffentlich. I asked my father (German lit. professor) what that word meant, and he said, with no hesitation, "I hope." From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Thu Aug 15 12:16:18 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:16:18 -0700 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814235906.00a8cc60@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814223532.029e7ec0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814185340.029eeec0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814223532.029e7ec0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814235906.00a8cc60@localhost> Message-ID: <20020815191618.GB10305@ofb.net> On Thu, Aug 15, 2002 at 10:47:29AM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: > What you are talking about is exactly the same thing happens to me under > those circumstances, but I don't call it thinking spatially, I am just > aware that my thinking, under those conditions, is not happening in > English, but in terms appropriate to the skills being used. You call it > thinking spatially, I call it thinking in the language of those > skills. That it is, at some level in my mind, I am still manipulating a > set of symbols. Facility, or it's lack, with the language of those skills At some level everything a computer does is manipulating a set of symbols. Not very many symbols, at that. Yet it can be productive and predictive to describe a program in terms of it rotating objects (okay, representation of objects)... spatial thinking. (Response not just to Steve but to much of the thread here) Also, people don't think alike. Wolfram mentions four different methods used by mathematicians. I think more in terms of language and symbol manipulation, and suck at rotating objects in my head, a friend is better at that and isn't as good at abstract symbols. We're both good programmers, although he's more enthusiastic about object oriented, and I'd probably be better at assembly. And Feynman found that he counted 'verbally' and thus couldn't talk out loud while counting, while someone else watched a mental ticker tape of numbers go by and thus couldn't read. Reading out loud while counting was suspected to be impossible for humans. How much of this can be changed with practice, I don't know. I'd _like_ to be able to have a solar system model in my head (that's what I suck at and my friend is better at.) Whether assembly modeling and figuring out a TV/VCR really is symbolic or constraint satisfying or is some form of visualization I'm not actually sure. -xx- Damien X-) From cmclaren at netegrity.com Thu Aug 15 12:29:17 2002 From: cmclaren at netegrity.com (Chris McLaren) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:29:17 -0300 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815120056.029f10f0@localhost> Message-ID: <00b401c24492$0c20b7e0$150aa8c0@CR173412A> I think I'm too old to be D'Artagnan, but I stand with you, armed with 'hopably' and a very old Fowler's. Chris, Yr lrg Canadian. > -----Original Message----- > From: Steven Brust [mailto:skzb at dreamcafe.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 4:01 PM > To: Mia McDavid > Cc: David Dyer-Bennet; dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of > Dzur Mountain) > > > At 01:52 PM 8/15/2002 -0500, Mia McDavid wrote: > >Steve and David, > > > >I stand with you. One for all and all for one! > > > >Mia > > Three of us now? Dare I believe we have a chance? > > No, but we shall fall nobly. > From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Aug 15 12:31:13 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:31:13 -0700 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <200208151857.g7FIvZo08919@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815122714.00abc3c0@localhost> At 11:57 AM 8/15/2002 -0700, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: >With this in mind, would you agree that, after coming >to understand and develop certain techniques to the point >where you are no longer conciously "thinking" of what you >are doing, and instead are "thinking" in the "language" of >your actions, you can reach the point where you can deviate >from the standard, rote forms and creativity can take over? It happens. It's easy if I've dropped enough acid. >To put another way, using martial arts as an example, after >years of practicing the techniques, developing the movements >to the point where they are ingrained into your body, no longer >having to "think" of what you're doing, you can then >allow yourself to improvise and be creative in what you're doing. >This would, I would think, mean that the subconscious is what houses >the ingrained techniques, and the conscious is where the creativity >comes from. I think I can provisionally accept that, ready to backtrack and deny I ever agreed if it turns out I've been trapped into an untenable position. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Aug 15 12:32:17 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:32:17 -0700 Subject: Fwd: RE: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815123207.00ac31a0@localhost> >Delivered-To: drmcafe-skzb at dreamcafe.com >Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 11:57:48 -0700 (PDT) >From: Chris Olson - SunPS >Reply-To: Chris Olson - SunPS >Subject: RE: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) >To: skzb at dreamcafe.com >X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.4.2 SunOS 5.8 sun4u sparc > >Steven Brust wrote: > > I certainly cannot accept that creativity is a function of the > > subconscious. Indeed, the more I learn, the more I become conscious of > > different aspects of technique, and the more creative I get. I am not > > terribly creative as a trap-drummer or guitarist or singer, because, to be > > blunt, I'm not all that good at those things. I haven't learned enough of > > their particular language to go much beyond certain rote techniques. On > > the other hand, I have made a fairly serious study of the doumbek (a > middle > > eastern percussion instrument). I am able to be *much* more creative in > > playing it than when playing any of the others, because my technique is > > stronger, my thinking in, if you will, drumereese, is more precise and > > elegant, my awareness of possibilities is more open to my conscious mind, > > and so my options increase and a certain amount of creativity has become > > possible. > >With this in mind, would you agree that, after coming >to understand and develop certain techniques to the point >where you are no longer conciously "thinking" of what you >are doing, and instead are "thinking" in the "language" of >your actions, you can reach the point where you can deviate >from the standard, rote forms and creativity can take over? > >To put another way, using martial arts as an example, after >years of practicing the techniques, developing the movements >to the point where they are ingrained into your body, no longer >having to "think" of what you're doing, you can then >allow yourself to improvise and be creative in what you're doing. >This would, I would think, mean that the subconscious is what houses >the ingrained techniques, and the conscious is where the creativity >comes from. > >I know, for instance, in opera singing (something I've trained in) >it takes years to develop the proper amounts of relaxation in the >throat and larynx, muscles used in the diaphram, proper formation >of vowels, etc. After these techniques are so ingrained that you need >not think about them to perform them, you can move away from them and >be "creative" in your singing. You can add tension here and there, and >get a musical-theater sound. You can tighten the throat and get rid >of vibratto. You can "create" a different sound. But if you try >this before the "proper" techinique is second nature, you may be >damaging your voice, or not getting the sound you're really looking for. > >I'm not a drummer, but I know enough about rhythm to guess that it >is similar. When you've got the proper technique and rhythms >down, you can start going off on your own ad-hoc. Until then, you >can try, but you'd most likely stumble around, miss a beat, get >tangled between the quarters and the 16ths, etc. > > >Or I'm just talking out of my lower extremities... :) > >Chris > >"Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and >everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes >tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, >son." > - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Aug 15 12:36:19 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:36:19 -0700 Subject: language, Vlad's description of magic (was: OT: bois, etc.) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815112401.029e8130@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815123443.00ab8010@localhost> At 03:08 PM 8/15/2002 -0400, Casey Rousseau wrote: >I wonder how Vlad would compare all this talk of >thinking/communication/language to his sort of magic. I've actually played with exactly this concept a couple of times in those books. I believe there is something in Urethra, though I might be mis-remembering. From scs at di.org Thu Aug 15 12:29:03 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:29:03 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <20020815192903.GA12223@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Frank Mayhar point out > . . . a gene that affects fine voluntary muscular control of > the mouth and larynx. It is a difference in this gene that lets humans > have language and chimpanzees (and the rest) _not_ have language. My understanding of the situation is that the fine voluntary control permits humans to produce a rich palate of sounds. However, this is not in any way *required* for language. The thriving deaf communities using sign language are a perfect counter-example. One outgrowth of the rich palate is incredible redundancy in the sounds (phonemes) that we use. Most phonemes carry multiple characterists that don't overlap significantly with other phonemes. Thus if any significant parts of the phoneme come thru, we recognise the word in spite of background noise, physical disability, etc. My very limited exposure to AMSLAN doesn't show as much redundancy. The inborn palate has regular failures. I had extreme speed problems as a child (inability to produce 'r' or 's'; it took years of speech therapy to get around it. One lingering effect is an inability to trill an 'r' such as in Spanish, Russian and others (so guess what two languages I took in school). That's not an uncommon problem for some, but it's much rarer in Spanish or Portuguese countries. Genetics? Environment? The jury is still out. But due to phoneme redundancy, Spaniards and Russians recognize my stumbled r for what it is. Other folks talk about language being hard-wired, etc. Language per se doesn't seem to be hard-wired, but grammar does. By grammar I mean breaking things down into subject, verb, object, clauses, modifiers, etc, etc. Even the oddest of languages (Basque, Navaho) have common characteristics. Our brains seem to be hard-wired for grammar. Within the patterns set down for grammar (subject-verb-object, verb-subject-object, etc, etc) we wind up with lots of different languages. Gene Wolfe did some very interesting things with this in the 'Return To The Whorl', the last book of the Short Sun series. Several groups there speak using English words but in orders and arrangements that are very rare but valid. Think of Yoda on LSD. In a surprisingly short time the reader becomes accustomed to the new structure and is able to not just follow the dialog but can actually speak a bit of it. But it always comes back to a core human grammer. A language seems to be formed by using one of the valid grammar forms, then hanging a bunch of phonemes (words) onto mutually agreed meanings. There's the famous Mark Twain quote about the difference between a word and the right word being like the diffence between lightning and a lightning bug. He's right, but the inevitible evolution of language (or erosion of language, if you prefer) means that even the most important distinctions become lost or changed over time. Which brings me back to Paarfi, or more correctly, to Dumas and translations. American English doesn't easily express the `tone of voice' that Paarfi writes in. After reading the Dumas translation that Steve got Tor to do and comparing it to other translations of Dumas, two things become clear. First, there's a certain tone in Dumas that doesn't pass easily to modern American readers. But (and second), once you *do* tune into that tone it becomes natural and a helluva lot of fun. It would not surprise me that most of the other translations of Dumas (almost all of which are quite old) were done by speakers of British English. Despite the protestations of folks on this side of the pond, they're not the same language. But it's not the obvious things that catch you (hood/bonnet, wellie/galosh, wireless/radio, etc). It's the more subtle stuff, particularly the better usage of irony and tone. What drips with irony for the British comes across as weak sarcasm here. Subtle irony is likely to be misunderstood - or worse, not even noticed. I suspect that whatever the American ear lacks with respect to irony is closely related to the tone of Dumas. Gads, that's enough for now. I'm supposed to be cleaning house... stagnation and confusion. -- It is far more impressive when others discover your good qualities, without hour help. -- Chuck Pyle 'The Zen Cowboy' http://www.chuckpyle.com/bio.html From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Aug 15 12:42:27 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 15 Aug 2002 14:42:27 -0500 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815111616.00abc730@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815111616.00abc730@localhost> Message-ID: Steven Brust writes: > Reducto ad absurdum--try being creative in a language you do not speak. Yes. And now, try being stodgy and rule-bound in a language you do not speak. I think that example is off on some *other* axis entirely. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Aug 15 12:47:51 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:47:51 -0700 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <00b401c24492$0c20b7e0$150aa8c0@CR173412A> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815120056.029f10f0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815124715.029f2020@localhost> At 04:29 PM 8/15/2002 -0300, Chris McLaren wrote: >I think I'm too old to be D'Artagnan, but I stand with you, armed with >'hopably' and a very old Fowler's. No, but you're just the right size to be Porthos. Good to have you aboard. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Aug 15 12:52:30 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:52:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <200208151952.g7FJqHo17608@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > >Sure it could. There is clearly a linguistic niche for a gerundive > >meaning "it is to be hoped". > > Why? That is, what does "it is to be hoped" mean? It is to be hoped by > *whom*? By persons unknown? Why say that? By you? Then say, "I > hope." By me? Then say, "You should hope." By all right-thinking > people? Then say that. Why this insistence on vagueness? Here's what the online Merriam-Websters has to say: Main Entry: hope?ful?ly Pronunciation: 'hOp-f&-lE Function: adverb Date: circa 1639 1 : in a hopeful manner 2 : it is hoped : I hope : we hope Usage: In the early 1960s the second sense of hopefully, which had been in sporadic use since around 1932, underwent a surge of popular use. A surge of popular criticism followed in reaction, but the criticism took no account of the grammar of adverbs. Hopefully in its second sense is a member of a class of adverbs known as disjuncts. Disjuncts serve as a means by which the author or speaker can comment directly to the reader or hearer usually on the content of the sentence to which they are attached. Many other adverbs (as interestingly, frankly, clearly, luckily, unfortunately) are similarly used; most are so ordinary as to excite no comment or interest whatsoever. The second sense of hopefully is entirely standard. Personaly, whenever I learn about a words "proper" usage, I prefer to use it as such. It's one of the reasons I've grown more interested in language and the words we use, where they came from, and what they mean, used to mean, and "should" mean. Yes, over time words change their meaning as people bastardize them (harsh word, I know:) But I tend to enjoy older works because of the language used. Hence my total enjoyment of authors like Milton, Poe, Lovecraft, and others. The timelessness of their writing is meaningful to me. Not only that, but they teach, by their word usage, a more complete understanding of the language. When a writer can mix the old with the new (eg: Brust, Zelazny, Thomas Ligotti, Neil Gaiman) I find it even more interesting. They've combined older usage with a more modern understanding of the overall language used. It's quite... engaging... Procrastinating work, Chris "So farewell hope, and with hope, farewell fear, Farewell remorse! All good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my Good" - John Milton - 'Paradise Lost' From Chrisf.Olson at sun.com Thu Aug 15 12:56:06 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at sun.com (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:56:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) Message-ID: <200208151955.g7FJtro18128@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > It happens. It's easy if I've dropped enough acid. Heck. Everything seems easy if you've dropped enough acid... > I think I can provisionally accept that, ready to backtrack and deny I ever > agreed if it turns out I've been trapped into an untenable position. Then we're agreed completely, as I'm great at backtracking when trapped into an untenable position... Grinnin' fool, Chris "You will be required to do wrong no matter where you go. It is the basic condition of life, to be required to violate your own identity. At some time, every creature which lives must do so. It is the ultimate shadow, the defeat of creation; this is the curse at work, the curse that feeds on all life. Everywhere in the universe." - "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" - Philip K. Dick From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Aug 15 12:57:40 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 15 Aug 2002 14:57:40 -0500 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815120226.029f19a0@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815104810.029f41c0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815104810.029f41c0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815120226.029f19a0@localhost> Message-ID: Steven Brust writes: > At 07:25 PM 8/15/2002 +0100, Mike Scott wrote: > > The change has > > > pretty much happened, but I cannot imagine how it could be construed > > > as improving the language. > > > >Sure it could. There is clearly a linguistic niche for a gerundive > >meaning "it is to be hoped". > > Why? That is, what does "it is to be hoped" mean? It is to be hoped > by *whom*? By persons unknown? Why say that? By you? Then say, "I > hope." By me? Then say, "You should hope." By all right-thinking > people? Then say that. Why this insistence on vagueness? > > In fact, "hopefully" in its vague use developed from the German word > that sounds like it but that I can't possibly spell--something like > huffentlich. I asked my father (German lit. professor) what that word > meant, and he said, with no hesitation, "I hope." Drat, I don't have a German dictionary any more. The word is either "hoffentlich" or else there's an umlaut over the o, and I can't remember which. What evidence is there for blaming this innocent German word for the abuse of "hopefully", though? I mean, it looks reasonable on the face of it, but we all know how reliable *that* is! -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From mike at plokta.com Thu Aug 15 12:57:54 2002 From: mike at plokta.com (Mike Scott) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 20:57:54 +0100 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815120226.029f19a0@localhost> (Steven Brust's message of "Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:07:10 -0700") References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815104810.029f41c0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815104810.029f41c0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815120226.029f19a0@localhost> Message-ID: Steven Brust writes: > Why? That is, what does "it is to be hoped" mean? It is to be hoped > by *whom*? By persons unknown? Why say that? By you? Then say, "I > hope." By me? Then say, "You should hope." By all right-thinking > people? Then say that. Why this insistence on vagueness? Vagueness is one of the uses of language, which is full of constructions that allow one to be precise about the bits you *want* to be precise about, and imprecise where it doesn't matter. It's also quite useful to be able to express the concept using three syllables rather than the twelve required for "it is to be hoped by all right-thinking people". Note that Cato, one of the most famous orators in history, didn't feel it necessary to specify exactly *who* should be destroying Carthage when deploying a genuine gerundive to (literally) devastating effect. -- Mike Scott mike at plokta.com From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Aug 15 12:58:20 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 15 Aug 2002 14:58:20 -0500 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815120056.029f10f0@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814185340.029eeec0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815110514.029c2d90@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815120056.029f10f0@localhost> Message-ID: Steven Brust writes: > At 01:52 PM 8/15/2002 -0500, Mia McDavid wrote: > >Steve and David, > > > >I stand with you. One for all and all for one! > > > >Mia > > Three of us now? Dare I believe we have a chance? > > No, but we shall fall nobly. And, I trust, take a LARGE honor-guard to hell with us. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From nytemuse at auros.org Thu Aug 15 13:00:45 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:00:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <200208151952.g7FJqHo17608@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > Personaly, whenever I learn about a words "proper" usage, I > prefer to use it as such. It's one of the reasons I've > grown more interested in language and the words we use, where > they came from, and what they mean, used to mean, and "should" > mean. Yes, over time words change their meaning as people > bastardize them (harsh word, I know:) But I tend to enjoy > older works because of the language used. Hence my total > enjoyment of authors like Milton, Poe, Lovecraft, and others. > The timelessness of their writing is meaningful to me. Not > only that, but they teach, by their word usage, a more complete > understanding of the language. An amusing side note; there was a David Letterman rerun last night with Will Smith (just before MIB2 came out) and my roommate told me that he heard an interview with Jada Pinkett Smith once who complained that Will corrected her grammar on a regular basis *giggle* and I have to respect that. I use proper usage when I find out about them, and try and tell others (politely). ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Aug 15 13:00:32 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:00:32 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815115727.029ea070@localhost> Message-ID: On Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 02:58 PM, Steven Brust wrote: > At 11:33 AM 8/15/2002 -0700, Nytemuse wrote: > >> I totally agree...I always thought that creativity was a collaboration >> of >> the conscious and...well, some other part. Maybe the subconscious, >> maybe >> something else. But the more I consciously know about a topic or >> audience >> etc, the more creative an idea I can come up with. But I don't think >> it's >> just a conscious mind thing. > > In _Literature and Revolution_ Trotsky refers to inspiration as, "The > creative unity of the conscious and the unconscious." I've always > liked that. > > I like that too. I must use it has my sig! From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Aug 15 13:03:49 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <200208152003.g7FK3ao19561@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > One outgrowth of the rich palate is incredible redundancy in the sounds > (phonemes) that we use. Most phonemes carry multiple characterists > that don't overlap significantly with other phonemes. Thus if any > significant parts of the phoneme come thru, we recognise the word in > spite of background noise, physical disability, etc. My very limited > exposure to AMSLAN doesn't show as much redundancy. I am reminded by this of the various "tribes" of the Sunami in Africa, whose language consists less of "words" (as we would use the term) and more of sounds, clicks of the tongue, and phonemes, combined with words as well. Just reminded me, sorry...:) Chris From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Aug 15 13:03:20 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:03:20 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0BF7D188-B08A-11D6-8249-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 03:57 PM, Mike Scott wrote: > Steven Brust writes: > >> Why? That is, what does "it is to be hoped" mean? It is to be hoped >> by *whom*? By persons unknown? Why say that? By you? Then say, "I >> hope." By me? Then say, "You should hope." By all right-thinking >> people? Then say that. Why this insistence on vagueness? > > Vagueness is one of the uses of language, which is full of > constructions that allow one to be precise about the bits you *want* > to be precise about, and imprecise where it doesn't matter. It's also > quite useful to be able to express the concept using three syllables > rather than the twelve required for "it is to be hoped by all > right-thinking people". > > Note that Cato, one of the most famous orators in history, didn't feel > it necessary to specify exactly *who* should be destroying Carthage > when deploying a genuine gerundive to (literally) devastating effect. That's right! Also, probably in the mists of prehistory, when one caveman was asked where he killed the big nasty beast, he probably just said, "over there, somewhere" and awed his fellow cave people with the knowledge he went into the "unknown" to kill this "monster" (and inventing a whole book genre in the process!) From mam at theworld.com Thu Aug 15 13:04:40 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:04:40 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <200208151640.g7FGeQo14211@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: #I believe I agree. At any rate, I've always felt it #would be better to create new words for new concepts and #ideas, rather than change the meaning of old words. However, human nature, as displayed by the history of languages, disagrees with you. When you speaking of hailing a cab, you don't think of a cabriolet ("cab" for short), a two-wheeled, two-seat, one-horse carriage with a folding top; but that's where the name came from. And when you read "carriage" in the previous sentence you probably weren't connecting it with "carry", but that's its origin. Word meanings and usages have fuzzy boundaries, and extending them is natural. We would have a much harder time communicating if we had to invent a new word every time we encountered something that was a bit different from the last thing we had seen that was similar to it. #At the same time, words are constantly being "slanged", Did you mean that to be self-referential? #and new definitions are being forced onto sometimes long-standing #words. # #I think, because of a lack of understanding of actual definitions, #people generaly don't know what a word is supposed to mean, and #only knows its definition by its source or the definition a reader/ #user will give to it at the time. Someone reading the word #"subjective" might not know the actual definition, and may assume #it has something to do with, say, the subject of a sentence. As it does when it is the name of a grammatical case. #It doesn't help, either, that different dictionaries can offer #slight variations of definition. (A friend of mine just bought #(from a bookstore-owner friend) the "OED" - Oxford English Dictionary. #20 VOLUME set. For those SERIOUS english majors!!:) Well, if they copied each other there'd be real fights about copyright. -- Do you believe that dictionaries create or fix meaning? They do not. They describe the meaning of words as they are used. People consult dictionaries to find out what other people mean when they use the words, just as they consult atlases to find out where places are, because these reference books reflect the real world -- unlike consulting a company's web site to find out the exact title of their chief financial officer. The company creates the title; if they call her "Comptroller" or "Chief Financial Officer" or "Vice President for Finance", that IS her title, and if they change it, it IS changed; they define it, so they cannot be wrong. (This is a made-up example, so please, nobody tell me that there's a legal reason to keep them distinct.) But if Merriam-Webster decided to change the definition of "fig" in their next edition to make it the same as the definition of "prune", the definition would be wrong. Lexicographers look at usage and try to figure out how people mean a word. They may quite honestly and competently come to somewhat different conclusions. Such is life. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Thu Aug 15 13:09:02 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:09:02 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 15 Aug 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: #I'm a counterexample. To me "non-verbal thought" is an oxymoron. #Writing badly is to me a clear sign of thinking unclearly. And so #forth. Does not compute. Writing is not the same as thinking. Writing requires words; it is by definition verbal. So the fact that a person writes badly does not prove that thought is verbal unless you assume that thought can be transmitted directly through writing, without a stage of transforming thought into words: i.e., that thought is verbal, the very point you are claiming to prove. -- Or do I misunderstand you? -- Mark A. Mandel From scs at di.org Thu Aug 15 13:01:04 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:01:04 -0400 Subject: Speaking of irony... Message-ID: <20020815200104.GA14956@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> >From some of the documentation and advice flying about my former employers bankruptcy: . . . Failure is a great business opportunity if you know what you're doing. There was a web site for quite some time, dotcomfailures.com, that existed to document the collapse of the dot-com economy. Of course, as that collapse slowed down through attrition (nobody was left TO fail), dotcomfailures itself went away. (Note to Alanis Morrisette: THAT'S what "ironic" means.) Full text at . -- It is far more impressive when others discover your good qualities, without hour help. -- Chuck Pyle 'The Zen Cowboy' http://www.chuckpyle.com/bio.html From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Aug 15 13:14:17 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:14:17 -0400 Subject: Speaking of irony... In-Reply-To: <20020815200104.GA14956@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <93B24A96-B08B-11D6-8249-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 04:01 PM, Steve Simmons wrote: > From some of the documentation and advice flying about my former > employers bankruptcy: > > . . . Failure is a great business opportunity if you know what > you're > doing. There was a web site for quite some time, dotcomfailures.com, > that existed to document the collapse of the dot-com economy. Of > course, as that collapse slowed down through attrition (nobody was > left TO fail), dotcomfailures itself went away. (Note to Alanis > Morrisette: THAT'S what "ironic" means.) > > Full text at . That IS a very good irony! From mam at theworld.com Thu Aug 15 13:17:30 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:17:30 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815104810.029f41c0@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: #At 07:26 AM 8/15/2002 +0100, Mike Scott wrote: #>Steven Brust writes: #> #> > And it is worth mentioning that some dictionaries are more willing #> > accept changes than others. My American Heritage dictionary does not #> > agree with Miriam-Webster about what "nauseous" means. Certainly, #> > when we insist on the more precise, useful term we are fighting a #> > rear-guard action, and are probably doomed. But I consider it a fight #> > worth waging anyway. #> #>I'd have to disagree that the older meaning of "nauseous" is either #>more precise or more useful. It seems to me that both meanings are #>about equally precise, just different. # #Uh...that is clearly not the case. There was already a word for the other, #"nauseating." Now, if we accept Webster, there is no single word that #means what "nauseous" used to mean. Thus our language is now weaker, not #stronger. Come again? "Nauseous" used to be used with the meaning 'nauseating'. A person who felt nauseated would complain of feeling "sick". "Sick" now has a somewhat different meaning, at least in the US, and "nauseous" is now used most often with the meaning 'nauseated'. The old meaning of "nauseous" is still covered by "nauseating", or "sickening". #The argument that it changed therefore it is useful and good will not, I #think, stand up to close examination. To take the classic case, most #people have now accepted "hopefully" to mean something vaguely like, "I #hope," "you should hope," "we hope," and "all right thinking people ought #to hope," all rolled into one. It is less precise than any of those, and #longer than half of them (what people usually mean is, "I hope" which is #shorter). And the older, more useful sense of, "with a hopeful attitude" #is now difficult to say. The change has pretty much happened, but I cannot #imagine how it could be construed as improving the language. Ah, you don't like imprecision? You must be very unhappy with English, which, unlike German, fails to force its speakers to distinguish a male friend (Freund) from a female one (Freundin) and an intimate "you" (du) >from a polite one (Sie)... let alone Hebrew, which distinguishes male "you" (atah) from female "you" (at). --- Oh, but German *does* have a word that means just what the newer use of "hopefully" covers: hoeffentlich. #So, you want to completely swap the two meanings? I suppose that would #give us something, but, hitherto, it has not happened. And if it did, it #would be really ugly. "How are you today?" "I shouldn't have eaten the #dog, because I'm really nauseating." No, I don't think I like that. And nobody is proposing it AFAIK. -- Mark A. Mandel From nytemuse at auros.org Thu Aug 15 13:17:45 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:17:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A bit of self-promotion... Message-ID: In case anyone hadn't read it, when _Issola_ was first released last year, it was reviewed by the magazine that I work for. So if anyone hasn't read it, or would like to check out the site in general, the review is at http://www.strangehorizons.com/2001/20011008/issola.shtml Strange Horizons is a free non-profit e-zine that works at promoting good speculative fiction, usually focusing on the lesser known or less popular authors (although not always). Usually the authors who we feel could benefit from our help and more publicity. *g* Or ones that we just feel are really good :) And we got nominated for this year's Hugos, so keep your fingers crossed for us! ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Aug 15 13:19:46 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:19:46 EDT Subject: language, Vlad's description of magic (was: OT: bois, etc.) Message-ID: <109.171381e0.2a8d66e2@aol.com> Skzb writes .....I believe there is something in urethra...... I had gotton several off the list e-mails regarding one of my postings. The posting was a response to another e-mail and not meant for the list. But..... Thanks for making my statements relevant. I owe you yet another one. John Barbato From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Aug 15 13:22:09 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:22:09 EDT Subject: language, Vlad's description of magic (was: OT: bois, etc.) Message-ID: <46.2c18a79b.2a8d6771@aol.com> Skzb - You played that as the masterful poker player that you are. You sneaky ba$@ard. JB From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Aug 15 13:28:35 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:28:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) Message-ID: <200208152028.g7FKSMo23847@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > However, human nature, as displayed by the history of languages, > disagrees with you. When you speaking of hailing a cab, you don't think > of a cabriolet ("cab" for short), a two-wheeled, two-seat, one-horse > carriage with a folding top; but that's where the name came from. And > when you read "carriage" in the previous sentence you probably weren't > connecting it with "carry", but that's its origin. Word meanings and > usages have fuzzy boundaries, and extending them is natural. We would > have a much harder time communicating if we had to invent a new word > every time we encountered something that was a bit different from the > last thing we had seen that was similar to it. True. At the same time, however, human nature does not mean "correct". In your above examples, for instance, No one ever told me where the word "cab" came from (yes, I knew by making an educated guess:) And I'll even go so far as to agree with what you say. But "carriage" is a new word, compared to "carry". "Cab" is a word apart from "cabriolet". So we are, in a sense, in the habit of inventing new words for slightly different usages. At the same time, we also have a tendency, as human beings (or at least American's, I'm not a linguist:) to create or change words where there is no real need. Slang being the most obvious example. How many words do we need to express, for instance, killing someone? Yes, words do change over time, and I take greate enjoyment in learning the etymology of words, but when we've got words to use, and they're just being changed for no visible reason, or used because they "sound good" (read: most words used in business "jargon":) it doesn't make much sense to me. > #At the same time, words are constantly being "slanged", > > Did you mean that to be self-referential? I love irony... :) > #I think, because of a lack of understanding of actual definitions, > #people generaly don't know what a word is supposed to mean, and > #only knows its definition by its source or the definition a reader/ > #user will give to it at the time. Someone reading the word > #"subjective" might not know the actual definition, and may assume > #it has something to do with, say, the subject of a sentence. > > As it does when it is the name of a grammatical case. Yes, but person "A" who uses it in conversation to person "B" might mean one thing, while person "B" hears another. > Well, if they copied each other there'd be real fights about copyright. > -- Do you believe that dictionaries create or fix meaning? They do not. Of course they don't (and no, I don't:) > They describe the meaning of words as they are used. People consult > dictionaries to find out what other people mean when they use the words, But that alone can cause confusion in a language. Which dictionary do "we" use if, say, there's an argument over the meaning of a word? > just as they consult atlases to find out where places are, because these > reference books reflect the real world -- unlike consulting a company's > web site to find out the exact title of their chief financial officer. > The company creates the title; if they call her "Comptroller" or "Chief > Financial Officer" or "Vice President for Finance", that IS her title, > and if they change it, it IS changed; they define it, so they cannot be > wrong. (This is a made-up example, so please, nobody tell me that > there's a legal reason to keep them distinct.) But if Merriam-Webster > decided to change the definition of "fig" in their next edition to make > it the same as the definition of "prune", the definition would be wrong. OK, now what if all the dictionary-writers got together and decided to change "fig" to mean "prune"? Would that make it right? > Lexicographers look at usage and try to figure out how people mean a > word. They may quite honestly and competently come to somewhat different > conclusions. Such is life. Certainly... :) Chris "I feel if a person can't communicate, the very least they can do is shut up." ~ Tom Lehrer ~ From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Aug 15 13:29:05 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:29:05 -0400 Subject: A bit of self-promotion... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 04:17 PM, Nytemuse wrote: > In case anyone hadn't read it, when _Issola_ was first released last > year, > it was reviewed by the magazine that I work for. So if anyone hasn't > read > it, or would like to check out the site in general, the review is at > http://www.strangehorizons.com/2001/20011008/issola.shtml > > Strange Horizons is a free non-profit e-zine that works at promoting > good > speculative fiction, usually focusing on the lesser known or less > popular > authors (although not always). Usually the authors who we feel could > benefit from our help and more publicity. *g* Or ones that we just feel > are really good :) And we got nominated for this year's Hugos, so keep > your fingers crossed for us! Shameless self promotion is allowed in small does on this list. Like I'm about to do: I have a book recently published, The World at the Edge of Time. You can gander at it's purpleness (and order it) here: http://homepage.mac.com/zizban Your review of Issola was interesting and it even managed to encapsulate some of my feelings toward the book, though you don't seem to decide whether you like it or not. I liked it, despite it's relatively light tone with Serious Matters. But that's Vlad, after all. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Aug 15 13:31:57 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:31:57 -0700 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815132932.029f2b30@localhost> At 04:09 PM 8/15/2002 -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On 15 Aug 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > >#I'm a counterexample. To me "non-verbal thought" is an oxymoron. >#Writing badly is to me a clear sign of thinking unclearly. And so >#forth. > >Does not compute. Writing is not the same as thinking. Writing requires >words; it is by definition verbal. So the fact that a person writes >badly does not prove that thought is verbal unless you assume that >thought can be transmitted directly through writing, without a stage of >transforming thought into words: i.e., that thought is verbal, the very >point you are claiming to prove. -- Or do I misunderstand you? For my part, I would not insist that thought has to be verbal, but I would say that thought has to be in language, where language is defined as a system of symbols. It may be that my definition of "language" is too broad to be useful. But I certainly agree with David that sloppy writing indicates sloppy thinking. I am not certain I can prove, or even defend this belief. From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Aug 15 13:34:36 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:34:36 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815132932.029f2b30@localhost> Message-ID: <69D7AB98-B08E-11D6-8249-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 04:31 PM, Steven Brust wrote: > But I certainly agree with David that sloppy writing indicates sloppy > thinking. I am not certain I can prove, or even defend this belief. I am living proof, alas ::sighs:: From nytemuse at auros.org Thu Aug 15 13:38:46 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:38:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A bit of self-promotion... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Chris Turkel wrote: > Your review of Issola was interesting and it even managed to encapsulate > some of my feelings toward the book, though you don't seem to decide > whether you like it or not. I liked it, despite it's relatively light > tone with Serious Matters. But that's Vlad, after all. There are several different people writing reviews for our site, so the voice of the review can change from week to week, but I believe I have heard that some of our reviewers prefer NOT to express an opinion, rather they provide the key points they see and allow people to make their own judgements. ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Aug 15 13:40:10 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:40:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Speaking of irony... Message-ID: <200208152039.g7FKdvo25917@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > . . . Failure is a great business opportunity if you know what you're > doing. There was a web site for quite some time, dotcomfailures.com, > that existed to document the collapse of the dot-com economy. Of > course, as that collapse slowed down through attrition (nobody was > left TO fail), dotcomfailures itself went away. (Note to Alanis > Morrisette: THAT'S what "ironic" means.) Heh. Yeah, the most ironic thing about her song is its severe lack of actual irony... I'd hope that it was intended that way, but I doubt it... :) Chris From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Aug 15 13:39:52 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:39:52 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <200208151952.g7FJqHo17608@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815133215.02a36ec0@localhost> At 12:52 PM 8/15/2002 -0700, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > >Sure it could. There is clearly a linguistic niche for a gerundive > > >meaning "it is to be hoped". > > > > Why? That is, what does "it is to be hoped" mean? It is to be hoped by > > *whom*? By persons unknown? Why say that? By you? Then say, "I > > hope." By me? Then say, "You should hope." By all right-thinking > > people? Then say that. Why this insistence on vagueness? > >Here's what the online Merriam-Websters has to say: Ummm...I hope you understand that, in Steve-world, to quote a Webster's dictionary is functionally equivalent to leaving the word undefined. However, that isn't the point. I've already conceded that this is a lot battle. The word has changed. It now means what you quoted. I was using it as an example of a change that weakened the language, and I have yet to see anything like a reasonable counter-argument. Here is the usage note from the American Heritage dictionary 1981-- "Hopefully, as used to mean it is to be hoped or let us hope, is still not accepted by a substantial number of authorities on grammar and usage. The following example...is acceptable to only 44 per cent of the Usage Panel." I imagine that, by now, even American Heritage finds it acceptable. But it is still a *weakening* of the language. Because something is inevitable does not make it good. > Many other adverbs (as >interestingly, frankly, clearly, luckily, unfortunately) are similarly >used; most are so ordinary as to excite no comment or interest >whatsoever. The second sense of hopefully is entirely standard. Interestingly means, "this interests me and ought to interest you." There is no ambiguity. Same with frankly, luckily, and clearly. The problem with hopefully is its ambiguity. From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Aug 15 13:42:49 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 15 Aug 2002 15:42:49 -0500 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <20020815192903.GA12223@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20020815192903.GA12223@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: Steve Simmons writes: > Language per se doesn't seem to be hard-wired, but grammar does. By > grammar I mean breaking things down into subject, verb, object, clauses, > modifiers, etc, etc. Even the oddest of languages (Basque, Navaho) > have common characteristics. > > Our brains seem to be hard-wired for grammar. Within the patterns > set down for grammar (subject-verb-object, verb-subject-object, etc, etc) > we wind up with lots of different languages. It's hard to ascertain really certainly, at our current level of knowledge. Many people expect mathematics to be a good way to establish communications with aliens (along with basic physics), because they believe they're universal. I the subject, verb, object concepts may be basic to any possible language in the same way. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Aug 15 13:42:09 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:42:09 -0400 Subject: A bit of self-promotion... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <783B828B-B08F-11D6-8249-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 04:38 PM, Nytemuse wrote: > On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Chris Turkel wrote: >> Your review of Issola was interesting and it even managed to >> encapsulate >> some of my feelings toward the book, though you don't seem to decide >> whether you like it or not. I liked it, despite it's relatively light >> tone with Serious Matters. But that's Vlad, after all. > > There are several different people writing reviews for our site, so the > voice of the review can change from week to week, but I believe I have > heard that some of our reviewers prefer NOT to express an opinion, > rather > they provide the key points they see and allow people to make their own > judgements. See, that's my problem. I prefer an opinion, like "stand up for yourself, man!". It was a well written review, though. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Aug 15 13:41:33 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:41:33 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815120226.029f19a0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815104810.029f41c0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815104810.029f41c0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815120226.029f19a0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815134032.00acd830@localhost> At 02:57 PM 8/15/2002 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > >What evidence is there for blaming this innocent German word for the >abuse of "hopefully", though? I mean, it looks reasonable on the face >of it, but we all know how reliable *that* is! Dammit, I no longer remember my source on that one. It came up in a discussion about fifteen years ago, before I was willing to concede the battle lost. From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Aug 15 13:46:12 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:46:12 -0400 Subject: Speaking of irony... In-Reply-To: <200208152039.g7FKdvo25917@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <08EDBA47-B090-11D6-8249-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Thursday, August 15, 2002, at 04:40 PM, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: >> . . . Failure is a great business opportunity if you know what >> you're >> doing. There was a web site for quite some time, >> dotcomfailures.com, >> that existed to document the collapse of the dot-com economy. Of >> course, as that collapse slowed down through attrition (nobody was >> left TO fail), dotcomfailures itself went away. (Note to Alanis >> Morrisette: THAT'S what "ironic" means.) > > Heh. Yeah, the most ironic thing about her song > is its severe lack of actual irony... I'd hope that > it was intended that way, but I doubt it... :) > > Chris > That would be dramatic irony, if it was intended that. Irony in a lack of irony! I love irony! ironic we are discussing irony, which makes this whole thing ironic in itself. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Aug 15 13:50:03 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:50:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <200208152049.g7FKnoo27497@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Ummm...I hope you understand that, in Steve-world, to quote a Webster's > dictionary is functionally equivalent to leaving the word > undefined. However, that isn't the point. I've already conceded that this > is a lot battle. The word has changed. It now means what you quoted. I > was using it as an example of a change that weakened the language, and I > have yet to see anything like a reasonable counter-argument. Haven't yet found another online-dictionary (know of another one I can use? I actualy don't LIKE M-W...:) However, I happen to agree with you in regards to "hopefully", it does seem to have a weakened meaning, with no word to make up for the lack... > But it is still a *weakening* of the language. > > Because something is inevitable does not make it good. THAT, I agree with!! I'll also state that, just because "everybody's doing it", makes "it" neither right or good! > Interestingly means, "this interests me and ought to interest you." There > is no ambiguity. Same with frankly, luckily, and clearly. The problem > with hopefully is its ambiguity. Again, I'm agreed. I wasn't defending an argument, but pointing out a source (that I still think is wrong, as is also evidenced by my countless arguments with a friend of mine, who INSISTS that the dictionary is right, no matter what...:) Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Aug 15 13:55:43 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 15 Aug 2002 15:55:43 -0500 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mark A Mandel writes: > On 15 Aug 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > #I'm a counterexample. To me "non-verbal thought" is an oxymoron. > #Writing badly is to me a clear sign of thinking unclearly. And so > #forth. > > Does not compute. Writing is not the same as thinking. Writing requires > words; it is by definition verbal. So the fact that a person writes > badly does not prove that thought is verbal unless you assume that > thought can be transmitted directly through writing, without a stage of > transforming thought into words: i.e., that thought is verbal, the very > point you are claiming to prove. -- Or do I misunderstand you? You're confusing argument with opinions, actually, is what's happening. Which is why "to me" occurs twice in those three sentences. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From RuhlenR at missouri.edu Thu Aug 15 13:55:32 2002 From: RuhlenR at missouri.edu (Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student)) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:55:32 -0500 Subject: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E01245372@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> > -----Original Message----- > From: Steven Brust [mailto:skzb at dreamcafe.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 3:40 PM > To: Chris Olson - SunPS; mike at plokta.com; dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) > > But it is still a *weakening* of the language. > > Because something is inevitable does not make it good. I have seen a lot of posts today disparaging the tendency to change language, either in certain groups (gay/les/bi community, business) or general usage and slang. I am no expert in any of this and probably someone has already done a complete dissertation on it, but it occurred to me that this tendency to change the language has a huge social role. My comment about the army made me think of that. All of these groups have their "jargon" and I heard someone say "What's your MOS?" I would immediately know they were in the army (or military; I'm not familiar with how much cross-over there is in the jargon between branches). I think having one's own jargon serves a role in making a cohesive group. Don't people fight wars over what language should be spoken? I've very recently heard some vehement remarks from people whom I had thought were reasonable, mature adults over the "sin" of speaking Spanish in public places like Walmart! It's not so hard to imagine wars over how the language will be spoken. Maybe we object to "weakening" the language because inherent in the ambiguity is the fact that someone else is communicating perfectly clearly and it is possible that they are changing the language in order to exclude us, who are confused by the change. Just for the record, I'm a biology grad student and have spent the day dissecting mice, which profoundly impacts thought processes. That's my disclaimer. Rachel From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Aug 15 14:01:21 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 15 Aug 2002 16:01:21 -0500 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mark A Mandel writes: > On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > #I believe I agree. At any rate, I've always felt it > #would be better to create new words for new concepts and > #ideas, rather than change the meaning of old words. > > However, human nature, as displayed by the history of languages, > disagrees with you. When you speaking of hailing a cab, you don't think > of a cabriolet ("cab" for short), a two-wheeled, two-seat, one-horse > carriage with a folding top; but that's where the name came from. And > when you read "carriage" in the previous sentence you probably weren't > connecting it with "carry", but that's its origin. Word meanings and > usages have fuzzy boundaries, and extending them is natural. We would > have a much harder time communicating if we had to invent a new word > every time we encountered something that was a bit different from the > last thing we had seen that was similar to it. "Cab", however, is not the same word as "cabriolet", merely a word *descended from* it. Our use of "cab" is no hindrance to people wishing to use "cabriolet" to refer to what it still, in fact, refers to. And I certainly *do* connect "carriage" with "carry". One of the things I very much like about computer jargon is the tendency to borrow words that mean about the right thing and give them a specific meaning in the software context. With a twist. I'm thinking of "demon" and "cookie" and such. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Aug 15 14:00:32 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 14:00:32 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815120226.029f19a0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815104810.029f41c0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815104810.029f41c0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815120226.029f19a0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815134155.00acfb70@localhost> At 08:57 PM 8/15/2002 +0100, Mike Scott wrote: >Steven Brust writes: > > > Why? That is, what does "it is to be hoped" mean? It is to be hoped > > by *whom*? By persons unknown? Why say that? By you? Then say, "I > > hope." By me? Then say, "You should hope." By all right-thinking > > people? Then say that. Why this insistence on vagueness? > >Vagueness is one of the uses of language, which is full of >constructions that allow one to be precise about the bits you *want* >to be precise about, and imprecise where it doesn't matter. It's also >quite useful to be able to express the concept using three syllables >rather than the twelve required for "it is to be hoped by all >right-thinking people". No insult intended, but, nonsense. It is *easy* to be vague. We have no trouble being vague. "Thing." "Stuff." "Kind of." "Tends toward." "Sort of." The challenge lies in precision. We do not have to make changes in English because the language is crying out for ways in which we can be less precise. The argument that one requires dull tools as well as sharp ones in the kitchen is not sufficient explanation for why you took the edge off my chef's knife. The reason you don't say, "All right-thinking people should hope" is because you don't really mean that. Well, do you? Uh, what exactly *do* you mean when you say, "Hopefully Dan will not try to drive after all the drinking he's done"? Generally, you mean, "I hope." Which is, by the way, shorter than "hopefully." Again, to emphasize, my point is simply this--because a change has occurred in English, and is now accepted, does not make the change good and useful. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Aug 15 14:04:21 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 14:04:21 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: References: <200208151952.g7FJqHo17608@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815140146.029f0ec0@localhost> At 01:00 PM 8/15/2002 -0700, Nytemuse wrote: >An amusing side note; there was a David Letterman rerun last night with >Will Smith (just before MIB2 came out) and my roommate told me that he >heard an interview with Jada Pinkett Smith once who complained that Will >corrected her grammar on a regular basis *giggle* and I have to respect >that. I use proper usage when I find out about them, and try and tell >others (politely). I try very hard not to correct other people's grammar. But it really irritates me when someone "corrects" my grammar when I'm right. I have been bitched at about my (admittedly stubborn) use of the generic "he." I have said, "I'll make a deal with you--I won't complain when you make grammatical errors, if you won't complain when I speak correctly." From scs at di.org Thu Aug 15 13:55:36 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:55:36 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) Message-ID: <20020815205536.GA15813@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Steve Brust writes: > I certainly cannot accept that creativity is a function of the > subconscious. Indeed, the more I learn, the more I become conscious > of different aspects of technique, and the more creative I get. Some agreement, some disagreement. There's no question that creative technique can be enhanced and improved. Nontheless, there is also a certain non-conscious component to it. I've noticed this in two particular cases. When writing music (which I do with guitar in hand and mouth in gear), I some times let go and free associate. Good things often come of it. This requires some part of my brain sitting back from what's going on and periodicly butting in to say ``Hey! Remember that change'' when a particularly useful thing occurs. But sometimes it's like a direct line opens up from God and music just pours out. That's rare, but it does happen. Two of my favorite songs came that way, and both bear little or no relationship to the rest of the music I've written. In one case I was setting a poem to music, in the other the music and topic poured out and then I struggled for weeks to get the words right. Both songs use odd (for me) time signatures and no recognizable key. A friend with much better musical training says they're in some weird mode and I shouldn't think about it too hard. By contrast, almost everything that I write while fully engaged is in a square time and standard keys. The other non-concious creativity comes in my sleep. No, it's not dreams, it's something grinding away at a problem while I'm asleep. Last year I spent an incredible amount of time working on a project that required learning and applying some complex abstractions in new (to me) environments. Several times I'd get out of bed in the morning, crawl into the shower, and about half way through the shampoo a solution would present itself seemingly full-blown. And I sure wasn't thinking about the problem in the shower; it usually took until the rinse to actually wake up. It wasn't that I hadn't been working on the problem; if anything I was pushing it a bit too hard (deadline pressure and all that crap). But some time while I was asleep the brain found the critical component and linked it in. Creative? Maybe . . . maybe just the brain doing an exhaustive search through all the pieces to find the one that fit. But it sure *felt* creative when it happened. -- It is far more impressive when others discover your good qualities, without hour help. -- Chuck Pyle 'The Zen Cowboy' http://www.chuckpyle.com/bio.html From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Aug 15 14:06:44 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 14:06:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) Message-ID: <200208152106.g7FL6Wo00399@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > One of the things I very much like about computer jargon is the > tendency to borrow words that mean about the right thing and give them > a specific meaning in the software context. With a twist. I'm > thinking of "demon" and "cookie" and such. Yeah, I know I'VE always liked my demons served with cookies... (Hmm... I wonder how the Necromancer would feel about that? :) I really should do some work today, but this is so much FUN!! ;) Chris "He is a lover of his country who rebukes and does not excuse its sins." - Frederick Douglass From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Aug 15 14:08:00 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 14:08:00 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815104810.029f41c0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815140624.00ac8510@localhost> At 04:17 PM 8/15/2002 -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote: > >#The argument that it changed therefore it is useful and good will not, I >#think, stand up to close examination. To take the classic case, most >#people have now accepted "hopefully" to mean something vaguely like, "I >#hope," "you should hope," "we hope," and "all right thinking people ought >#to hope," all rolled into one. It is less precise than any of those, and >#longer than half of them (what people usually mean is, "I hope" which is >#shorter). And the older, more useful sense of, "with a hopeful attitude" >#is now difficult to say. The change has pretty much happened, but I cannot >#imagine how it could be construed as improving the language. > >Ah, you don't like imprecision? You must be very unhappy with English, >which, unlike German, fails to force its speakers to distinguish a male >friend (Freund) from a female one (Freundin) and an intimate "you" (du) >from a polite one (Sie)... let alone Hebrew, which distinguishes male >"you" (atah) from female "you" (at). --- Oh, but German *does* have a >word that means just what the newer use of "hopefully" covers: >hoeffentlich. I've already answered the latter--no it doesn't. As to the former, well, yes, I like precision. And the problem with this is...? From scs at di.org Thu Aug 15 14:06:20 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 17:06:20 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) Message-ID: <20020815210620.GA16090@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> An aside -- wow, what a great discussion this has turned out to be. My thanks to all involved. Mia McDavid writes: > So--Do we think in language. No, if it's food or tools or cloth or > anything else we can see and touch. Beyond that, language is absolutely > imperative for thought: The thoughts are literally impossible without > the language to couch them in. I find this incredibly seductive, as it matches up well with my own thought processes. When I'm working on a hard problem that I don't yet understand, it feels like there's underground rivers rolling around in my brain. But they have no form, and they're not clear. Sometimes they crystalize and become describeable. Sometimes I can force it to crystalize by trying to put it in words, either written or spoken. Sometimes the attempt to articulate destroys the idea. I can almost feel it drain away when that happens, and it's usually lost for good. (OK, it could have been a bad idea and articulation reveals that). But no matter what, the idea rarely works until I can write it down. The few exceptions are when something other than language articulates the idea. This can be music, where the act of playing crystalizes it. Other times it's physical process -- I'll know that if these three things happen at once, the proper result will occur, but until we do it I can't tell them in advance why it's going to work. So yes, an articulation is necessary. But it needn't be language that expresses it. A supporting question: is your cat or dog ever creative? -- It is far more impressive when others discover your good qualities, without hour help. -- Chuck Pyle 'The Zen Cowboy' http://www.chuckpyle.com/bio.html From casey at trinityhartford.org Thu Aug 15 14:27:47 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 17:27:47 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) Message-ID: Mia McDavid wrote: > If this child cannot master functional language by the age of about 7, > s/he will never, no matter what later developments occur, be able to > advance to symbolic language; to the abstract thought. Philosophy, > theology, honor, duty, ideals, will forever be a closed book to this > person; and for this reason, history, politics, economics, literature. > A developmental window closes, and a mind is forever crippled. Is the failure to master language the cause of the handicap or simply symptomatic? I am keying on your use of cannot rather than doesn't in the first sentence. Which do you mean? Casey From casey at trinityhartford.org Thu Aug 15 14:28:21 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 17:28:21 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) Message-ID: David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > One of the things I very much like about computer jargon is the > tendency to borrow words that mean about the right thing and give them > a specific meaning in the software context. With a twist. I'm > thinking of "demon" and "cookie" and such. Not to mention object, handle, library, thread and window or even the shorter stretches of class, address and mouse. :) Ain't it grand? Casey From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Aug 15 14:47:56 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 17:47:56 EDT Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) Message-ID: <160.124e4cfb.2a8d7b8c@aol.com> Sloppy writing indicates sloppy thinking? Not always. Sometimes it represents a poor vocabulary or a poor education. Sometimes it represents an individule who does not take the time to phrase their reply well. I know several doctors who cannot write their way out of a paper bag, yet their clinical reasoning skills and diagnostic prowess are phenomenal. No sloppy thinking there. John Barbato From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Thu Aug 15 15:02:47 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 17:02:47 -0500 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020814223532.029e7ec0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814185340.029eeec0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814223532.029e7ec0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814235906.00a8cc60@localhost> <20020815191618.GB10305@ofb.net> Message-ID: <3D5C2506.3C22B674@attbi.com> How we think: Tempel Grandin is a well-known high-functioning autist with a strong skill for thinking visually--she says it is like a film running in her head. She has a great love for animals and has done important work in humane slaughterhouse design. She runs her "film" of animals walking into the slaughterhouse to see if she's done the design well. Me, I can scarcely create a good picture in my head of a dear family member. I am *incapable* of seeing a printed word without hearing it in my head, but I read music like a three-year-old trying to sound out C-A-T. If I have a point here, it is that modes of thought, and the relationship between thought process and language, are complex and not entirely understood. Some people can learn by hearing. Some people cannot learn without seeing. Some people learn better without language, but by seeing objects and images. So, yes, we're all different here. Mia From nthuleen at students.wisc.edu Thu Aug 15 15:04:16 2002 From: nthuleen at students.wisc.edu (Nancy Thuleen) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 17:04:16 -0500 Subject: Hopefully (was OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815134032.00acd830@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815120226.029f19a0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815104810.029f41c0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815104810.029f41c0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815120226.029f19a0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815134032.00acd830@localhost> Message-ID: At 13:41 -0700 15.8.2002, Steven Brust wrote: > At 02:57 PM 8/15/2002 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > > >What evidence is there for blaming this innocent German word for the > >abuse of "hopefully", though? I mean, it looks reasonable on the face > >of it, but we all know how reliable *that* is! > > Dammit, I no longer remember my source on that one. It came up in a > discussion about fifteen years ago, before I was willing to concede the > battle lost. This is in the back of my head as well; I'm sure it came up in one of my "history of the German language" classes (I'm working on my Ph.D. in German Literature) several years ago, but I can't recall the details. It's certainly true that the German word "hoffentlich" (no umlaut -- they don't put umlauts on *everything* in German, you know!) sounds a bit like 'hopefully' but means 'I hope; hopingly'. But the Germans also have "hoffnungsvoll" which is the direct equivalent of 'hopeful, full of hope'. So I don't quite understand why German gets blamed, either. The only source I could find online was an article from the 1990 Verbatim Language Quarterly, which blames the 'hopefully' issue on German speakers trying to speak English; the author states in part: "Alas, it was only a beginning. Germans who wanted to translate their word interessanterweise into English tried 'interestingly,' which in those days sounded horrible to British ears; but the Americans at once pounded on it. There followed a number of other, similar formations, such as 'importantly.' Americans must have realized about this time that the German ending -weise has an English equivalent. and this was accordingly resuscitated: the old likewise and crosswise family was joined by neologisms like countrywise and stylewise. Then came hopefully, a word which had long existed in English and meant 'in a hopeful manner': you could apply for a job hopefully because you were 'full of hope.' The Germans, however, stumbled upon hopefully because they wanted a word for their own hoffentlich, admittedly a useful word; so hopefully was soon being used in a quite different sense, viz. to mean 'it is to be hoped.' Consequently we now have a measure of confusion, which, be it noted, is not shared by the Germans, as they have two different words for the two senses: hoffentlich for 'it is to be hoped,' and hoffnungsvoll for 'hopeful(ly).'" He also implies that the change took widespread effect after WWII, but that it had started to creep in before that. Unfortunately I don't see that he provides any real citations or proof, and that's the only source I immediately saw, so I'll reserve my judgement for now as to whether to blame it on the Germans! :) - Nancy. From Gaertk at aol.com Thu Aug 15 15:09:35 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 18:09:35 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <499F5747.65F3D05C.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Wed, 14 Aug 2002 11:26:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, Nytemuse writes: > K, while we're on this, does anyone practice > "tetrapyloctomy" or have "triskadekaphobia"? Not sure, but I know this list has at least one practicing heptadekaphiliac :) --KG From alan at 5sc.net Thu Aug 15 15:48:10 2002 From: alan at 5sc.net (Alan) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 18:48:10 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <200208152049.g7FKnoo27497@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: > > Haven't yet found another online-dictionary (know of > another one I can use? I actualy don't LIKE M-W...:) > Try www.refdesk.com for a nice consolidation of reference links. I have been following this discussion with great enjoyment and fascination. Christopher Stashef had an interestingly, twistly discussion on this topic, involving symbols related to language and communication, in "King Kobold." I'll have to dig it up and enjoy it again. Alan (the other one) ----------------- "Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come." From mam at theworld.com Thu Aug 15 16:45:35 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 19:45:35 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: # A tall, lean, pedantic chap -- with unruly light-colored hair, a great many pockets overflowing with markers, pens, and slips of paper, and a striped scarf that brushes the floor at both ends -- appears next to Steve, snatches the Strunk & White from his hand, and slaps the back of his wrist with it. "'Hordes', not 'hoards'! Or are you under attack by heaps of hidden goods?" -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody ;-) a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From scs at di.org Thu Aug 15 16:41:54 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 19:41:54 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) Message-ID: <20020815234154.GA18462@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Damien Sullivan writes: > My relative truth is "post-modernism is a crock of shit". Refute! I'd say that's relatively true. See also , one of the best and wittiest discussions of post-modernism ever written. -- It is far more impressive when others discover your good qualities, without hour help. -- Chuck Pyle 'The Zen Cowboy' http://www.chuckpyle.com/bio.html From scs at di.org Thu Aug 15 16:43:06 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 19:43:06 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <20020815234305.GA18499@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Mun. Mun mun mun mun mun. Mun mun, mun. Mun mun, mun mun. Mun mun? Mun! Mun mun mun. -- It is far more impressive when others discover your good qualities, without hour help. -- Chuck Pyle 'The Zen Cowboy' http://www.chuckpyle.com/bio.html From mam at theworld.com Thu Aug 15 16:56:31 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 19:56:31 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815112401.029e8130@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: #I have often closed my eyes and called up a pleasing picture. That is not #thinking, that is exercising my memory. If I make conclusions about that #picture, such as, "I'd like to go back to that beach," or, "I wonder what #she's up to today?" I am thinking. But sometimes--often--those pictures #merely call up emotion, they bring with them feelings. That is *feeling* #it is not *thinking*. Now suppose you're planning a day at that beach as part of a road trip. You know the roads in the area pretty well, but you'll be driving there >from a different place than you usually do. You start figuring out how to get from point A to point B. What goes on in your mind? When I do that, my -- well, not to bias the discussion I'll say "what goes on in my mind" includes - images of parts of the road as I see them when driving - muscle-memories of making turns (not exactly of turning the wheel, but of the car as an extension of my body, so not exactly "muscle" either) - partial maps - fragments of sentences like "If I turn there", except that I'm not sure the words "turn there" are part of it; more like "If I [visual and kinesthetic sketch of making the turn]" - and probably more kinds of thing. Now, I contend that all of those are parts of my thought process. The only parts there that I'm sure are linguistic are connectives, conditionals, and the like, the most abstract pieces of the logic. Most of the rest is in other forms. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Thu Aug 15 17:18:00 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 20:18:00 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815120226.029f19a0@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: #At 07:25 PM 8/15/2002 +0100, Mike Scott wrote: #>Sure it could. There is clearly a linguistic niche for a gerundive #>meaning "it is to be hoped". # #Why? That is, what does "it is to be hoped" mean? It is to be hoped by #*whom*? By persons unknown? Why say that? By you? Then say, "I #hope." By me? Then say, "You should hope." By all right-thinking #people? Then say that. Why this insistence on vagueness? Let us ban the word "obviously". Why? Obvious to whom? To persons unknown? Why say that? To you? Then say, "It's obvious to me." To me? Then say, "It should be obvious to you." By all right-thinking people? Then say that. Why this insistence on vagueness? (What's that? You say those expressions are all too long to be easy? Namby-pamby kids! Why, when I was a boy, by the time we finished saying "Good morning, teacher!" it was time for lunch!) #In fact, "hopefully" in its vague use developed from the German word that #sounds like it but that I can't possibly spell--something like #huffentlich. I asked my father (German lit. professor) what that word #meant, and he said, with no hesitation, "I hope." You asked your father to translate a German word ("hoeffentlich", or replace the "oe" with an o-umlaut) into English. English has no precise translation for it, other than "it is to be hoped". Therefore your father translated it into the most convenient approximation; but it is not an exact translation. Another point. You, Steve, or someone else in this thread, have spoken of the potential confusion between this use of "hopefully" and its more traditional use to refer to the emotional state in which a person does something. But the two uses are no more likely to be confused than the two senses of "comfortable" when applied to a chair and to a person... neither of which means "capable of being comforted", as one would expect >from analyzing the parts of the word. The newer, and currently more common (imho), use of "hopefully", as a sentence adverb, is rarely used in a way that would make sense if interpreted emotionally, and often it would not even be grammatical. ISTM that objecting to a sentence like "Hopefully the job will be finished on time" on the grounds that (1) a job can't hope and (2) that's not what the speaker means is no more reasonable than objecting to "Are you comfortable?" on the grounds that (1) no one is sitting on the addressee and (2) that's not what the speaker means. (But I'm pretty sure that some people *did* object to "are you comfortable?" in the third quarter of the 18th century, when what the OED calls the "passive or neuter" sense of "comfortable" came into use.) Summary: The sentence-adverbial use of "hopefully" is not confusing, does not supplant the emotional sense, and provides a short, convenient way of saying something useful. God, this is fun! -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Thu Aug 15 17:21:50 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 20:21:50 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois... In-Reply-To: <20020815192903.GA12223@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Steve Simmons wrote: #My understanding of the situation is that the fine voluntary control #permits humans to produce a rich palate of sounds. However, this is #not in any way *required* for language. The thriving deaf communities #using sign language are a perfect counter-example. I enjoyed this post, and I won't add to it. But I have to ask: is "palate" for "palette" a deliberate pun? Intended or not, it's great! -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Thu Aug 15 17:38:23 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 20:38:23 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <200208152003.g7FK3ao19561@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: #I am reminded by this of the various "tribes" of #the Sunami in Africa, whose language consists #less of "words" (as we would use the term) and more #of sounds, clicks of the tongue, and phonemes, combined #with words as well. Chris, I don't know where you got your information from, but it's incorrect. When I speak -- imagine that I am saying this to your ear, not typing it to your eye -- I produce spoken sounds that can be analyzed as phonemes of our language. This applies whatever language we're speaking. (Sign languages are subject to comparable analysis, but let's stick with spoken ones for now.) I'm about to simplify a bit, but not much. At one level, every word in this language is composed of phonemes, and its pronunciation can be described completely in terms of them. F'rex, using the SAMPA ASCII representation for American English, the word "phonemes" is pronounced "fonimz (The initial quotation mark is a symbol in its own right representing primary word stress.) In the languages of sub-Saharan Africa that have clicks, these clicks are part of the phonemic system of the language, just as much as the voiceless "th" sound of English "think" is part of our phonemic system, even though most other European languages don't have such a sound. Now imagine a French or German or Swedish or Hungarian person saying "The language of the English consists less of 'words' (as we would use the term) and more of sounds, obscure hisses of the tongue, and phonemes, combined with words as well." I won't try to rebut Chris's paragraph point by point. It is, not simply but richly and complexly, totally incorrect. -- Mark A. Mandel former Senior Linguist for Dragon Systems, Inc., speech recognition From mam at theworld.com Thu Aug 15 17:51:02 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 20:51:02 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <200208152028.g7FKSMo23847@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: #True. At the same time, however, human nature does not #mean "correct". In your above examples, for instance, #No one ever told me where the word "cab" came from (yes, #I knew by making an educated guess:) And I'll even go #so far as to agree with what you say. But "carriage" is #a new word, compared to "carry". "Cab" is a word apart from #"cabriolet". So we are, in a sense, in the habit of inventing #new words for slightly different usages. But these are adaptations of existing words to new meanings. I wasn't clear. "Cab" was not invented to refer to taxicabs; it was applied to cabriolets and other horse-drawn vehicles, and then to motor vehicles, and now only to motor vehicles for hire and usually equipped with a (ta-dahh!) taximeter to calculate the fare. (Oh, also to a part of a locomotive, etc.) "Carriage" meant an act of carrying or the manner of carrying for centuries before it was applied to a vehicle. # At the same time, #we also have a tendency, as human beings (or at least American's, #I'm not a linguist:) to create or change words where there is #no real need. Slang being the most obvious example. How many #words do we need to express, for instance, killing someone? Language does much, much more than express truth-value meaning. It demonstrates group membership (I talk like one of OUR people; that person doesn't), attitude (I scorn the person I am talking about: "and then what do you think the b*****d did?"), and many other things. A language without slang is like a kitchen without pepper. [...] #> They describe the meaning of words as they are used. People consult #> dictionaries to find out what other people mean when they use the words, # #But that alone can cause confusion in a language. Which dictionary #do "we" use if, say, there's an argument over the meaning of a word? What remedy do you recommend? #OK, now what if all the dictionary-writers got together and #decided to change "fig" to mean "prune"? Would that make it #right? Of course not. That's my point. What's yours? I mean that literally, not as challenge. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From scs at di.org Thu Aug 15 18:06:14 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 21:06:14 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <20020816010613.GA19735@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Dr. Whom writes: > I enjoyed this post, and I won't add to it. But I have to ask: is > "palate" for "palette" a deliberate pun? Intended or not, it's great! Hey! Look! It's the Winged Victory of Samothrace! (while they're distracted, Steve walks away, smacking self in forehead and muttering `idiot! idiot! idiot!...') -- "Deconstruction is [when] a work is interpreted as a statement about itself, using a literary version of the same cheap trick that Kurt Godel used to try to frighten mathematicians back in the thirties." -- Chip Morningstar in From sakura_dreamz at hotmail.com Thu Aug 15 18:25:03 2002 From: sakura_dreamz at hotmail.com (Sakura Dreamz) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 19:25:03 -0600 Subject: Dragaera? Human? Message-ID: Um, does anyone know the exact different of a Dragaerian and a Easterner? I mean, I know that Dragaerian's are like, taller and such but is there anything else? They're not actually dragons, right? And also, about the house of Phoenix, how does one become part of that house? Wasn't it said that there are only a few left or something? I know the Empress is one... is there anyone else? ^^;; Probably a dumb question, but oh well. Thanks in advance! - Sev - - http://yasashii_yoake.tripod.com/ - From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Aug 15 18:58:14 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 15 Aug 2002 20:58:14 -0500 Subject: Dragaera? Human? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Sakura Dreamz" writes: > Um, does anyone know the exact different of a Dragaerian and a Easterner? I > mean, I know that Dragaerian's are like, taller and such but is there > anything else? They're not actually dragons, right? Well, they live for thousands of years instead of dozens. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca Thu Aug 15 19:16:14 2002 From: jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca (James and Mary Burbidge) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 22:16:14 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) References: Message-ID: <3D5C606E.F67E2A03@sympatico.ca> Mark A Mandel wrote: > > Ah, you don't like imprecision? You must be very unhappy with English, > which, unlike German, fails to force its speakers to distinguish a male > friend (Freund) from a female one (Freundin) and an intimate "you" (du) > from a polite one (Sie)... let alone Hebrew, which distinguishes male > "you" (atah) from female "you" (at). --- Oh, but German *does* have a > word that means just what the newer use of "hopefully" covers: > hoeffentlich. > I'm afraid I have to agree with Steve on this one -- shifts in language which lead to loss of the possibility of nuanced expression are to be deplored; but that isn't the same as wanting to import all the distinctions of other languages simply to expand the language (FWIW, I would think that Greek, with its very much greater flexibility, is an even better counterexample than German). _My_ bete noire, however, is not "hopefully", but the breakdown in the distinction between "shall" and "will". -- James Burbidge jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca From spenn at shaw.ca Thu Aug 15 19:30:07 2002 From: spenn at shaw.ca (Sean) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 19:30:07 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815104810.029f41c0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815104810.029f41c0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815120226.029f19a0@localhost> Message-ID: <009001c244cc$d66055d0$883e5418@dontbenosy> Steve said: > Why? That is, what does "it is to be hoped" mean? It is to be hoped by > *whom*? By persons unknown? Why say that? By you? Then say, "I > hope." By me? Then say, "You should hope." By all right-thinking > people? Then say that. Why this insistence on vagueness? > I can't argue against the need for precise language. There are words like "denude", which means "to strip". Figure that one out. Almost as if a 'word' like "dethaw" had been accepted into general usage. (No doubt someone will look it up for me). These words could be seen as a weakening of the language, because they tend to promote confusion. However, determining whether a word is evolving or devolving is tough, even when tracing etymology. And, IMHO, subjective ; ) But isn't ambiguity what makes English so delicious? (and incidentally so difficult for non-English speakers to learn). I don't completely agree with Steve that having words evolve (or devolve) into forms that function in a less precise manner is a weakening of the language. Oh, I guess I agree in principle, but English is a whore who has had many lovers, and this is where her strength lies. She keeps souvenirs. And this is where we get double entendre, innuendo, hyperbole and scads of other devices that cajole the reader to make connections, read between the lines and truly absorb what they are reading; interpret it and make it their own. The French revel in ambiguity of phrase, and there's nothing so sweet as an insult delivered that momentarily goes over your victim's head. Gives you a moment to think up another one. A rose by any other name... And of course a dog is a dog, but maybe I'm not referring to a canine or mutt or bitch or pooch or, oh, well, hopefully you get the idea. From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Thu Aug 15 19:53:18 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 19:53:18 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <200208152049.g7FKnoo27497@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200208152049.g7FKnoo27497@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <20020816025318.GA23886@ofb.net> On Thu, Aug 15, 2002 at 01:50:03PM -0700, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > THAT, I agree with!! I'll also state that, just because "everybody's > doing it", makes "it" neither right or good! Depends what 'it' is. For things which are arbitrary, whose value is exactly that everyone else is doing it -- driving on one side of the road, say -- that everyone else is doing it does make it right. Left side or right side? Doesn't matter -- just be sticking to the same side as everyone else going your way! -xx- Damien X-) From mam at theworld.com Thu Aug 15 20:05:23 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 23:05:23 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 15 Aug 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: #You're confusing argument with opinions, actually, is what's #happening. Which is why "to me" occurs twice in those three #sentences. Hmmmm. Yes, I overlooked that, though it seemed (to me ;-) ) to make sense in the flow of the text. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Thu Aug 15 20:10:09 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 23:10:09 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) Message-ID: On 15 Aug 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: #Mark A Mandel writes: #> #> However, human nature, as displayed by the history of languages, #> disagrees with you. When you speaking of hailing a cab, you don't think #> of a cabriolet ("cab" for short), a two-wheeled, two-seat, one-horse #> carriage with a folding top; but that's where the name came from. And #> when you read "carriage" in the previous sentence you probably weren't #> connecting it with "carry", but that's its origin. Word meanings and #> usages have fuzzy boundaries, and extending them is natural. We would #> have a much harder time communicating if we had to invent a new word #> every time we encountered something that was a bit different from the #> last thing we had seen that was similar to it. # #"Cab", however, is not the same word as "cabriolet", merely a word #*descended from* it. Our use of "cab" is no hindrance to people #wishing to use "cabriolet" to refer to what it still, in fact, refers #to. But when "cab" was first extended to what is now its sole meaning (as far as road vehicles go), people surely objected just as you're objecting to the extension of "hopefully". Were they right? #And I certainly *do* connect "carriage" with "carry". But it's not, for you, 'an act of carrying'. At some time the extension was new, and probably decried. See prev. paragraph. #One of the things I very much like about computer jargon is the #tendency to borrow words that mean about the right thing and give them #a specific meaning in the software context. With a twist. I'm #thinking of "demon" and "cookie" and such. Oh, dear, shouldn't they be inventing new words? Or am I confusing your position with Steve's or someone else's? -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Thu Aug 15 20:14:42 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 23:14:42 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815140624.00ac8510@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: #At 04:17 PM 8/15/2002 -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote: #>#shorter). And the older, more useful sense of, "with a hopeful attitude" #>#is now difficult to say. No, it isn't. Almost any sentence you would have said before in which "hopefully" meant 'with a hopeful attitude', you can still say without ambiguity. Go ahead, try it. (I said this upthread, but not so simply.) The change has pretty much happened, but I cannot #>#imagine how it could be construed as improving the language. #>Ah, you don't like imprecision? You must be very unhappy with English, #>which, unlike German, fails to force its speakers to distinguish a male #>friend (Freund) from a female one (Freundin) and an intimate "you" (du) #>from a polite one (Sie)... let alone Hebrew, which distinguishes male #>"you" (atah) from female "you" (at). --- Oh, but German *does* have a #>word that means just what the newer use of "hopefully" covers: #>hoeffentlich. # #I've already answered the latter--no it doesn't. As to the former, well, #yes, I like precision. And the problem with this is...? That, as someone else has said, we don't always want to be perfectly precise. English-speakers sometimes are dismayed at not being able to be vague in German or Spanish about the sex of the "friend" they went out drinking with. Etc. -- Mark M. From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Thu Aug 15 20:14:35 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 20:14:35 -0700 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <000501c24456$48984490$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> References: <20020815062822.GF13289@galadriel.alyra.org> <000501c24456$48984490$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> Message-ID: <20020816031435.GB23886@ofb.net> On Thu, Aug 15, 2002 at 01:21:29PM +0100, Mark Tiller wrote: > I'm going to have to disagree with Steven, Language is NOT how we think, > it's how we communicate. We think at the subconcious level in the How do you know how we think at the subconcious level? > Pictures, Sounds and Feelings at least that's how memory is organised. Not entirely. Are smells supposed to count as feelings? ... more relevantly for this debate, it's a simple cognitive science experiment to have people read a passage, and then some time later try to identify the passage they read >from among others written differently with the same meaning. From what I've read, most people won't pick out the right passage. They can, though, reject passages with different meanings. Certainly I know that if I read something without intentionally paying attention to the specific words my ability to regenerate the exact words will be crap -- but I'll know the gist of what was said. So this somewhat argues against Steve's case -- there's a level of memory, and probably thinking, more abstract than that of the specific language we use. I think the ability to identify ambiguous sentences may be another argument -- we note the sentence doesn't resolve to a unique meaning. On the other hand, we may then wonder about the sentence in terms of more precise alternate sentences. This isn't something I've introspected about -- and I might be a bad example, because most of my conscious thinking _is_ me talking to myself in my head (or talking to other people in my head... but talking.) But I think my first example argues against your case as well, unless you expand 'feelings' to these hidden abstract meaning structures in our head. But I doubt that'd be useful. > We may CHOOSE at the concious level to verbalise our thoughts, it's good > if we are trying to follow a logic chain. But thinking in pictures is > much faster as in a picture's worth a thousand words. "Not if you can't draw." I do not think in pictures, okay? And I think fast. (Although not, perhaps, about pictorial stuff.) People are insisting their way is right. It's not. People think differently. Some people natter to themselves. Others can manipulate pictures in their brain. A few others have rather different experiences, associating colors with words and sounds all the time, seeing colors in different numbers, not as a choice but because they do -- I'd guess some neurons took a wrong path, but what do I know? Some people can't express themselves well in speech or writing but are good at figuring out mechanical things. Some are the opposite. Some are good at advanced math (and in different ways, if I believe Wolfram.) Some of us combine proficiencies. There is no one right way to proces information. It is universal that we seem hard-wired to pick up the languages around us at a young age. (In the case of creoles, even making a new language with other children, out of the parental mishmash.) How much we use that language to ourselves varies. -xx- Damien X-) From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Aug 15 20:41:58 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 15 Aug 2002 22:41:58 -0500 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oops, saw this in direct email without the list in the headers, so I've already replied privately. So you'll see something like this twice Mark, sorry. Mark A Mandel writes: > On 15 Aug 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > #Mark A Mandel writes: > #> > #> However, human nature, as displayed by the history of languages, > #> disagrees with you. When you speaking of hailing a cab, you don't think > #> of a cabriolet ("cab" for short), a two-wheeled, two-seat, one-horse > #> carriage with a folding top; but that's where the name came from. And > #> when you read "carriage" in the previous sentence you probably weren't > #> connecting it with "carry", but that's its origin. Word meanings and > #> usages have fuzzy boundaries, and extending them is natural. We would > #> have a much harder time communicating if we had to invent a new word > #> every time we encountered something that was a bit different from the > #> last thing we had seen that was similar to it. > # > #"Cab", however, is not the same word as "cabriolet", merely a word > #*descended from* it. Our use of "cab" is no hindrance to people > #wishing to use "cabriolet" to refer to what it still, in fact, refers > #to. > > But when "cab" was first extended to what is now its sole meaning (as > far as road vehicles go), people surely objected just as you're > objecting to the extension of "hopefully". Were they right? Depends if the technology was more important (that particular kind of carriage needed to keep its own special name and the abbreviation thereof) or if the use was more important (a name was needed to refer to for-hire vehicles). Given the ongoing importance of small two-wheel carriages, I think a sensible choice was made. > #And I certainly *do* connect "carriage" with "carry". > > But it's not, for you, 'an act of carrying'. At some time the extension > was new, and probably decried. See prev. paragraph. Sorry, it is. "Carriage" is an archaism now, and if I lived in a time when I used the vehicle regularly, that meaning probably *would* have displaced all the others, but for me now they're all historical and several of them are readily accessible. The phrase "carriage trade" and a number of technical legal terms around there are clearly hark back to the "carry" meaning. > #One of the things I very much like about computer jargon is the > #tendency to borrow words that mean about the right thing and give them > #a specific meaning in the software context. With a twist. I'm > #thinking of "demon" and "cookie" and such. > > Oh, dear, shouldn't they be inventing new words? Or am I confusing your > position with Steve's or someone else's? What's being done doesn't make the existing words less useful, so it's not against *my* principle's. Or Steven's either if I understand that right. One of the reasons I like them so well is that they clearly represent play by highly-literate people. They build on and work with the existing meanings, rather than clashing with them. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Aug 15 21:39:09 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 23:39:09 -0500 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquintance with their length In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815105845.00abb530@localhost> References: <16f.122a3942.2a8cc4ca@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815105845.00abb530@localhost> Message-ID: <20020816043909.GC10352@infodancer.org> I've started in on 500YA, and in the course of so doing, found myself examining the cover art, which brought to my mind an incongruity; and that raised the question of whether I ought to seek an answer in the appropriate venue, now that I have the capability to do so; wherefore previously, I have had the question, but not the capability, and hence, still lack the answer. My question, then, is this: Vlad continually refers to the advantages of Eastern-style fencing over the Dragaeran hack-and-slash style, with very heavy, broad blades (that, in fact, he is nearly unable to lift on one occasion). In contrast, the Paarfi novels clearly are written as Dumas pastiches, and as such, the appropriate sword form is the rapier; this is borne out by the cover art of both 500YA and tPG, as well as the descriptions of swordfights within, at least in some cases. (Tazendra uses either a broadsword or a hand-and-a-half sword; Khaavren and the others appear to carry and fight with rapiers). So, what's up with that? Are the Dragaerans so much bigger and stronger that Vlad perceives their rapiers as broadswords, while the Dragaerans perceive them as light fencing blades? Is it that Khaavren and his companions, excepting Tazendra, are unusual with respect to their armament? Is it that Vlad is unusual in the opponents that he faces? Is it that Dragaerans fight with (large) rapiers in a full-forward medieval style, more suited to different weapons? Is it that Vlad is actually wielding something closer in form to the foil or epee or sabre (modern fencing weapons) than their common ancestor the rapier? Is Paarfi being an idiot? -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Aug 15 21:51:35 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 23:51:35 -0500 Subject: Dragaera? Human? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020816045135.GD10352@infodancer.org> Minor spoilers below for early Vlad books. On Thu, Aug 15, 2002 at 07:25:03PM -0600, Sakura Dreamz wrote: > Um, does anyone know the exact different of a Dragaerian and a Easterner? I > mean, I know that Dragaerian's are like, taller and such but is there > anything else? They're not actually dragons, right? Each Dragaeran house, excepting the Jhereg and perhaps the Teckla, were genetically modified with (some of) the genes of their name animals, and presumably granted some psychic ability at the same time. Aside from that, well, they appear to be taller, stronger, thinner, and lack facial hair. Oh, and they live nearly forever. > And also, about the house of Phoenix, how does one become part of that > house? Wasn't it said that there are only a few left or something? I know > the Empress is one... is there anyone else? ^^;; Probably a dumb question, > but oh well. How you become a Phoenix is unclear. It certainly involves a real phoenix passing over you at the night of your birth, according to one of the Paarfi books. Whether the child must also be a trueblood phoenix is unspecified (if so, no wonder the house is so small). -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From nytemuse at auros.org Thu Aug 15 22:49:47 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 22:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <20020815210620.GA16090@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Steve Simmons wrote: > An aside -- wow, what a great discussion this has turned out to be. My > thanks to all involved. Wow, yet another compliment...glad I helped start it! > A supporting question: is your cat or dog ever creative? Oh gods, yes. I've seen cats do some of the craziest things to accomplish their objective. Whether they perceive that as creativity or not is beyond my scope, but it's so funny watching them trying to get somewhere/thing they want. *giggle* ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From nytemuse at auros.org Thu Aug 15 22:50:59 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 22:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <499F5747.65F3D05C.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > K, while we're on this, does anyone practice > > "tetrapyloctomy" or have "triskadekaphobia"? > > Not sure, but I know this list has at least one practicing > heptadekaphiliac :) *blinkblink* What, praytell, makes 17 better than 13? I know I'm a triskadekaphiliac... But that's due to screwing with superstition *giggle* Not sure what the significance of loving 17 is... ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From nytemuse at auros.org Thu Aug 15 23:03:47 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 23:03:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ConJose Message-ID: So how many people will be coming to ConJose (WorldCon) this month? I'm not sure how many Bay Areans there are, or if anyone's flying in, but just curious. I'll be there (for my first time) and promoting Strange Horizons. ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From ambyrglow at softhome.net Thu Aug 15 23:16:35 2002 From: ambyrglow at softhome.net (ambyrglow at softhome.net) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 00:16:35 -0600 Subject: ConJose In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'll be there. . . . That is, if my membership actually managed to get on the records. They've sent me no mail, haven't listed me on the membership list, and don't respond to my e-mails. I'm beginning to get slightly nervous about the whole affair. . Still, I'm very much looking forward to it. . Claire . Nytemuse writes: > So how many people will be coming to ConJose (WorldCon) this month? I'm > not sure how many Bay Areans there are, or if anyone's flying in, but just > curious. I'll be there (for my first time) and promoting Strange > Horizons. > > ****** > NyteMuse > > "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. > Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." > AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) > MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse > http://www.crowfire.com > From davids at kithrup.com Thu Aug 15 23:16:55 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 23:16:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Nytemuse wrote: >On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >> > K, while we're on this, does anyone practice >> > "tetrapyloctomy" or have "triskadekaphobia"? >> >> Not sure, but I know this list has at least one practicing >> heptadekaphiliac :) > >*blinkblink* What, praytell, makes 17 better than 13? I know I'm a >triskadekaphiliac... But that's due to screwing with superstition >*giggle* >Not sure what the significance of loving 17 is... > Hmm. Have you forgotten which mailing list this is? Well, maybe you are not aware of this signifier. Here's a hint: Pick up any book by Steve Brust, and count the number of chapters. In the case of the Khaavren romances, note where "Book One" ends & Book Two begins. If you don't want to bother, you could always follow this link created by our esteemed colleague & fellow listmember: http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/seventeen.html#17 From mike at plokta.com Thu Aug 15 23:40:43 2002 From: mike at plokta.com (Mike Scott) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 07:40:43 +0100 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815134155.00acfb70@localhost> (Steven Brust's message of "Thu, 15 Aug 2002 14:00:32 -0700") References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815120226.029f19a0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815104810.029f41c0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815104810.029f41c0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815120226.029f19a0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815134155.00acfb70@localhost> Message-ID: <4rdvs3v8.fsf@plokta.com> Steven Brust writes: > No insult intended, but, nonsense. It is *easy* to be vague. We have > no trouble being vague. "Thing." "Stuff." "Kind of." "Tends > toward." "Sort of." The challenge lies in precision. We do not have > to make changes in English because the language is crying out for ways > in which we can be less precise. The argument that one requires dull > tools as well as sharp ones in the kitchen is not sufficient > explanation for why you took the edge off my chef's knife. You certainly need sharp knives to be available. But shall I come and put a razor edge on your butter knife? -- Mike Scott mike at plokta.com From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Aug 15 23:39:36 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 23:39:36 -0700 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815233202.029cb3e0@localhost> At 11:10 PM 8/15/2002 -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote: >#"Cab", however, is not the same word as "cabriolet", merely a word >#*descended from* it. Our use of "cab" is no hindrance to people >#wishing to use "cabriolet" to refer to what it still, in fact, refers >#to. > >But when "cab" was first extended to what is now its sole meaning (as >far as road vehicles go), people surely objected just as you're >objecting to the extension of "hopefully". Were they right? Is it your position that because people objected to certain changes that later proved useful, all objections to changes are bound to prove useful? I don't think that argument will hold up. I don't remember anyone stating that language either does not or ought not to change. Is it your position that all changes to the language should be instantly approved of and used by everyone when they first enter? My position can be expressed as follows: Some changes to the language make it more flexible, powerful, and precise. Other changes make the language more rigid, weak, and vague. I support the former by employing the new usages as they occur, and oppose the latter by not using them, and by objecting to them when they happen to come up as a subjects of conversation. What is your position? From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Aug 15 23:44:20 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 23:44:20 -0700 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815112401.029e8130@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815234105.029ceb80@localhost> At 07:56 PM 8/15/2002 -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: > >#I have often closed my eyes and called up a pleasing picture. That is not >#thinking, that is exercising my memory. If I make conclusions about that >#picture, such as, "I'd like to go back to that beach," or, "I wonder what >#she's up to today?" I am thinking. But sometimes--often--those pictures >#merely call up emotion, they bring with them feelings. That is *feeling* >#it is not *thinking*. > >Now suppose you're planning a day at that beach as part of a road trip. >You know the roads in the area pretty well, but you'll be driving there >from a different place than you usually do. You start figuring out how >to get from point A to point B. What goes on in your mind? A sudden desire to call up someone who can read maps. If I *could* read maps, or had any geographical skill, I would use those techniques to make decisions. In other words, I would be manipulating symbols in my mind. I call this activity "thinking." If those other activities should occur, then I would take those feelings and images and process them with my thoughts. I know of no law that says one cannot think about feelings. Indeed, if one were unable to think about feelings, many, many people I know would have nothing to talk about. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Aug 15 23:47:43 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 23:47:43 -0700 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <20020815205536.GA15813@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815234517.029ce580@localhost> At 04:55 PM 8/15/2002 -0400, Steve Simmons wrote: >But sometimes it's like a direct line opens up from God and music just >pours out. I call that "inspiration." See my earlier comment on that. The most sustained period of inspiration I've ever had was writing the first draft of _Agyar_, which was a joyous experience like no other I've had. There is no doubt in my mind that there were elements of my subconscious very much at work then. But I have certainly been creative at times when nothing remotely like that was going on. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Aug 15 23:51:11 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 23:51:11 -0700 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <160.124e4cfb.2a8d7b8c@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815234831.029c9100@localhost> At 05:47 PM 8/15/2002 -0400, Randi128 at aol.com wrote: >Sloppy writing indicates sloppy thinking? > > >Not always. Sometimes it represents a poor vocabulary or a poor education. >Sometimes it represents an individule who does not take the time to phrase >their reply well. I know several doctors who cannot write their way out of a >paper bag, yet their clinical reasoning skills and diagnostic prowess are >phenomenal. No sloppy thinking there. Unless I am misunderstanding you, this seems to support the point you are trying to refute. When engaged in clinical reasoning, a different language is used--a language in which they have skills, and can thus use effectively. When engaged in reasoning which requires verbal language, they do not have the skill, and thus do not think clearly. Those without education or who have a poor vocabulary are limited in their ability to engage in the sort of thought that uses verbal language--or, to put it another way, they tend to think sloppily. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Aug 16 00:02:32 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 00:02:32 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815120226.029f19a0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815235625.00a9d990@localhost> At 08:18 PM 8/15/2002 -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: > >#At 07:25 PM 8/15/2002 +0100, Mike Scott wrote: >#>Sure it could. There is clearly a linguistic niche for a gerundive >#>meaning "it is to be hoped". ># >#Why? That is, what does "it is to be hoped" mean? It is to be hoped by >#*whom*? By persons unknown? Why say that? By you? Then say, "I >#hope." By me? Then say, "You should hope." By all right-thinking >#people? Then say that. Why this insistence on vagueness? > >Let us ban the word "obviously". Why? Obvious to whom? To persons >unknown? Why say that? To you? Then say, "It's obvious to me." To me? >Then say, "It should be obvious to you." By all right-thinking people? >Then say that. Why this insistence on vagueness? "Obviously" means "it is obvious to me." Whence comes the vagueness? A lovely word--very useful and elegant. Obviously, you haven't thought this through. > >#In fact, "hopefully" in its vague use developed from the German word that >#sounds like it but that I can't possibly spell--something like >#huffentlich. I asked my father (German lit. professor) what that word >#meant, and he said, with no hesitation, "I hope." > >You asked your father to translate a German word ("hoeffentlich", or >replace the "oe" with an o-umlaut) into English. English has no precise >translation for it Exactly. Because the German word it has been taken from means something different. And (for the nth time) I am not suggesting a ban on the word. I have already conceded that this battle is lost. But are you claiming this change is useful? That it helps the language? That it permits us to make nice distinctions? Or do you have a different standard for what changes are useful? Or, as I asked in another post, do you consider the fact that a change has occurred sufficient proof that it is a boon to the language? >Another point. You, Steve, or someone else in this thread, have spoken >of the potential confusion between this use of "hopefully" and its more >traditional use to refer to the emotional state in which a person does >something. I have never spoken of that confusion. I could probably, with a great deal of work, create a situation in which they might be confused, but it would be a pretty ugly sentence. >Summary: The sentence-adverbial use of "hopefully" is not confusing, >does not supplant the emotional sense, and provides a short, convenient >way of saying something useful. What useful thing does it say that, "I hope" does not? (And, yes, I agree, this *is* fun!) From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Aug 16 00:05:29 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 00:05:29 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <3D5C606E.F67E2A03@sympatico.ca> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816000424.029ca8f0@localhost> At 10:16 PM 8/15/2002 -0400, James and Mary Burbidge wrote: >Mark A Mandel wrote: > > > > Ah, you don't like imprecision? You must be very unhappy with English, > > which, unlike German, fails to force its speakers to distinguish a male > > friend (Freund) from a female one (Freundin) and an intimate "you" (du) > > from a polite one (Sie)... let alone Hebrew, which distinguishes male > > "you" (atah) from female "you" (at). --- Oh, but German *does* have a > > word that means just what the newer use of "hopefully" covers: > > hoeffentlich. > > > >I'm afraid I have to agree with Steve on this one -- shifts in language >which lead to loss of the possibility of nuanced expression are to be >deplored; but that isn't the same as wanting to import all the >distinctions of other languages simply to expand the language (FWIW, I >would think that Greek, with its very much greater flexibility, is an >even better counterexample than German). Well put. >_My_ bete noire, however, is not "hopefully", but the breakdown in the >distinction between "shall" and "will". Hmmm. I believe I shall pick up that banner myself. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Aug 16 00:14:33 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 00:14:33 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <4rdvs3v8.fsf@plokta.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815134155.00acfb70@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815120226.029f19a0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815104810.029f41c0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815104810.029f41c0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815120226.029f19a0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815134155.00acfb70@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816001330.00a859b0@localhost> At 07:40 AM 8/16/2002 +0100, Mike Scott wrote: >Steven Brust writes: > > > No insult intended, but, nonsense. It is *easy* to be vague. We have > > no trouble being vague. "Thing." "Stuff." "Kind of." "Tends > > toward." "Sort of." The challenge lies in precision. We do not have > > to make changes in English because the language is crying out for ways > > in which we can be less precise. The argument that one requires dull > > tools as well as sharp ones in the kitchen is not sufficient > > explanation for why you took the edge off my chef's knife. > >You certainly need sharp knives to be available. But shall I come and >put a razor edge on your butter knife? No one is suggesting you do so. I like butter knives as they are, that's why I have them. And I have as many as I want; there is no need to turn my Chef's knife into another one. From davids at kithrup.com Fri Aug 16 01:15:20 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 01:15:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816001330.00a859b0@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: >No one is suggesting you do so. I like butter knives as they are, that's >why I have them. And I have as many as I want; there is no need to turn my >Chef's knife into another one. You may want to consider the following notion (which I am not sure is correct, so if you see a flaw in my reasoning, feel free to point it out): Language is used for more than one purpose. Often it is used purely for communication - and the most pure example I can think of is instruction, where one wants to communicate the steps that need to be followed in order to reach some specific goal. But language is also used to cause an emotional change in the hearer or reader - for example, not just to communicate the fact that Romeo & Juliet love each other, but to inspire in us the feelings of sympathy for their reckless passion and sadness at the resulting tragedy. And language is also used to manipulate - to inspire strong emotions which will, in the intent of the speaker or writer, lead to some action being taken. I suppose the best example of this is persuasion (convincing a loan officer or job interviewer to have confidence in you) or seduction (trying to inspire lust in some hot young thing so she (or he, depending on your tastes) will have hot sex with you). At its worst, language can be pure demagoguery; Hitler's [1] rants to the German people about how they are destined to greatness, and have been held back by those who are not pure Aryans, which were meant to inspire nationalistic fervor & militancy, and a willingness to accept the Nazi party's policies and actions. Getting back to "hopefully", I don't think it means exactly "I hope" or "you hope" - those are emotions specific to the speaker or the listener, and if the speaker wants to be that specific, he is perfectly free to say one or the other - to use the chef's knife, as it were. I think the word "hopefully" is used when the speaker is referring to himself, but wants to persuade the hearer to agree, but is unwilling to attribute that emotion without knowing the hearer's internal state. Being deliberately vague as to who besides the speaker is hoping allows the hearer to agree (which affirms the speakers hopes) or disagree (which may clash with the speakers intentions, but it is not a direct contradiction since no specific feelings of hope were attributed to the hearer), and if the hearer *does* disagree, holds the possibility that others out there *do* agree. So yes, I think "hopefully" is shorthand for the phrase "I hope, and all right-thinking people (that is, those that think like the speaker) also hope", and it's shorter and less clunky than that phrase. Or, to put it in terms of your kitchen, this isn't a matter of turning your Chef's knife into a butter knife. The proper analogy is that of taking one of your extra bread knives and turning it into a peeler, or even a melon-baller - a new tool that does something similar to what you could do with the old tool, yet is obviously [2] easier & less clumsy with the new tool. Hopefully, you will agree. :-) [1] Oh, no! I killed the thread! [2] Obvious to me, and it should be obvious to you too. :-) From mike at plokta.com Fri Aug 16 02:19:29 2002 From: mike at plokta.com (Mike Scott) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:19:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816001330.00a859b0@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815134155.00acfb70@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815120226.029f19a0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815104810.029f41c0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815104810.029f41c0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815120226.029f19a0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815134155.00acfb70@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020816001330.00a859b0@localhost> Message-ID: <33414.195.110.95.117.1029489569.squirrel@plokta.dyndns.org> Steven Brust said: > At 07:40 AM 8/16/2002 +0100, Mike Scott wrote: >> >>You certainly need sharp knives to be available. But shall I come and >> put a razor edge on your butter knife? > > No one is suggesting you do so. I like butter knives as they are, > that's why I have them. And I have as many as I want; there is no need > to turn my Chef's knife into another one. You certainly seem to be suggesting that imprecise constructs such as "hopefully" have no place in the language, and that only precise ones should be allowed. My position is similar to your position on knives -- I like both of them, as long as they're used for an appropriate task. -- Mike Scott mike at plokta.com From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Aug 16 03:12:14 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 03:12:14 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <33414.195.110.95.117.1029489569.squirrel@plokta.dyndns.org > References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816001330.00a859b0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815134155.00acfb70@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815120226.029f19a0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815104810.029f41c0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815104810.029f41c0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815120226.029f19a0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815134155.00acfb70@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020816001330.00a859b0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816030853.029cb9a0@localhost> At 10:19 AM 8/16/2002 +0100, Mike Scott wrote: >Steven Brust said: > > At 07:40 AM 8/16/2002 +0100, Mike Scott wrote: > >> > >>You certainly need sharp knives to be available. But shall I come and > >> put a razor edge on your butter knife? > > > > No one is suggesting you do so. I like butter knives as they are, > > that's why I have them. And I have as many as I want; there is no need > > to turn my Chef's knife into another one. > >You certainly seem to be suggesting that imprecise constructs such as >"hopefully" have no place in the language, and that only precise ones >should be allowed. My position is similar to your position on knives -- I >like both of them, as long as they're used for an appropriate task. I am suggesting that English is already so well supplied with imprecise formulations that adding more is absurd. Introducing changes that make it easy and natural to be imprecise is not something I can conceive as being a positive change. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Aug 16 03:27:25 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 03:27:25 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816001330.00a859b0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816031342.00aaf590@localhost> At 01:15 AM 8/16/2002 -0700, David Silberstein wrote: >Getting back to "hopefully", I don't think it means exactly "I hope" >or "you hope" No, it doesn't. That's the problem. >- those are emotions specific to the speaker or the >listener, and if the speaker wants to be that specific, he is >perfectly free to say one or the other - to use the chef's knife, as >it were. But most people don't bother, because there is easy way out, that doesn't encourage us to think about what we mean. We say, "I'm involved in a relationship with Susan." What does "relationship" mean in that context? Do you know? Can you define it? It *sounds* like it's saying something, but it really isn't. How has this use of "relationship" made it easier to communicate? It hasn't. Instead, you have a lot of people who *think* they understand what you've said, and nod, but, in reality, they are living in a world of muddied, unclear thoughts. The same is true of "hopefully," although not as much. It gives the illusion of saying something more precisely than it has. It is very much of a kind to what the businessmen and politicians do--making it sound like they said more than they have. I mislike it that so many of us do this accidentally. From calianng_graves at yahoo.com Fri Aug 16 04:11:02 2002 From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 04:11:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816031342.00aaf590@localhost> Message-ID: <20020816111102.74281.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com> Steven Brust wrote: >- those are emotions specific to the speaker or the >listener, and if the speaker wants to be that specific, he is >perfectly free to say one or the other - to use the chef's knife, as >it were. But most people don't bother, because there is easy way out, that doesn't encourage us to think about what we mean. We say, "I'm involved in a relationship with Susan." What does "relationship" mean in that context? Do you know? Can you define it? It *sounds* like it's saying something, but it really isn't. How has this use of "relationship" made it easier to communicate? It hasn't. Instead, you have a lot of people who *think* they understand what you've said, and nod, but, in reality, they are living in a world of muddied, unclear thoughts. The same is true of "hopefully," although not as much. It gives the illusion of saying something more precisely than it has. It is very much of a kind to what the businessmen and politicians do--making it sound like they said more than they have. I mislike it that so many of us do this accidentally. ********************************************************************************************** Hhhmmm, you would prefer the first speaker said " I am banging Susan like a nail every night"? Most of the changes in language that evolve are due to people trying to be MORE considerate of one another. Including such little things as "Hopefully". I do agree that language, over the course of millinia, has become LESS complex, even though the culture it describes has become MORE complex. However, since this lessoning of complexity has occurred since the first known beginnings of language, I cannot see a way to change the trend. It is true that the very ancient languages, like ancient Egyptian, Hebrew and Babylonian, were much more complex and accurate than our modern languages today. However, the simplification of language seems to be an ongoing trend. Why argue about it or debate it? Language DOES change as societies evolve. It is part of the course of history. We have the choice of fighting it or evolving with it. With Respect, Caliann Graves *Written WITHOUT Steve's imput, although she caters to him in other ways* "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Aug 16 04:21:22 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 04:21:22 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <20020816110638.18141.qmail@web21106.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816031342.00aaf590@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816041713.029a9160@localhost> At 04:06 AM 8/16/2002 -0700, Caliann the Elf wrote: >>Hhhmmm, you would prefer the first speaker said " I am banging Susan like >>a nail every night"? If that's the essence of what's going on, then yes. >>Most of the changes in language that evolve are due to people trying to >>be MORE considerate of one another. Including such little things as >>"Hopefully". I beg to disagree. I think very few changes have to do with consideration. >>I do agree that language, over the course of millinia, has become LESS >>complex, even though the culture it describes has become MORE >>complex. However, since this lessoning of complexity has occurred since >>the first known beginnings of language, I cannot see a way to change the trend. Nor have I any desire to do so. >>Language DOES change as societies evolve. It is part of the course of >>history. We have the choice of fighting it or evolving with it. We have a third choice: attempting to influence, so that the changes that take place help to make the language more useful, flexible, and powerful. I don't think simplicity vs complexity is the issue--the exact details, and how they effect language, are the issue. From calianng_graves at yahoo.com Fri Aug 16 04:36:35 2002 From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 04:36:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816041713.029a9160@localhost> Message-ID: <20020816113635.43075.qmail@web21109.mail.yahoo.com> Steven Brust wrote: We have a third choice: attempting to influence, so that the changes that take place help to make the language more useful, flexible, and powerful. I don't think simplicity vs complexity is the issue--the exact details, and how they effect language, are the issue. ********************************************************************************************* Wow, why didn't you tell me in all this time you wished to be French? They use that sort of control over their language. Parle vous Fran?ais, mon cher, n'est pas? With love and good humor, Caliann Graves Yahoo I.D. calianng_graves *girl of the Grand Poohbah Cheese of the Universe, Steve* "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs From calianng_graves at yahoo.com Fri Aug 16 04:51:57 2002 From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 04:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816043601.029b2e00@localhost> Message-ID: <20020816115157.51131.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> Steven Brust wrote:At 04:36 AM 8/16/2002 -0700, Caliann the Elf wrote: Steven Brust wrote: We have a third choice: attempting to influence, so that the changes that take place help to make the language more useful, flexible, and powerful. I don't think simplicity vs complexity is the issue--the exact details, and how they effect language, are the issue. ********************************************************************************************* Wow, why didn't you tell me in all this time you wished to be French? They use that sort of control over their language. I don't know enough about French Institute to speak intelligently. My father minored in French, and one time, based on some 2nd hand things I'd heard, I made the mistake of making disparaging remarks about it. I don't remember the details of the ensuing lecture, but at least I'm convinced that there are two sides to that argument. -- Steve (Grand Poohbah Cheese of the Universe) "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Fri Aug 16 05:38:23 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 07:38:23 -0500 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) References: Message-ID: <3D5CF23F.A79A23AB@attbi.com> I mean that, however much native intelligence the brain was born with, if the brain has not mastered the expressive use of concrete language--that is, speaking--by a certain age, then it will be forever closed to the manufacture or understanding of abstract language. The developmental time when this can happen will have passed, never to be recalled. The brain must be able to create and use phrases like "I want some Jello" before the age of seven, or else it will *never be able to conceive of or comprehend* phrases like "Language is our mutual struggle to discuss objective truth." Mia From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Fri Aug 16 05:48:38 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 07:48:38 -0500 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815104810.029f41c0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815104810.029f41c0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815120226.029f19a0@localhost> <009001c244cc$d66055d0$883e5418@dontbenosy> Message-ID: <3D5CF4A6.EF253C4@attbi.com> Sean said: >I can't argue against the need for precise language. There are words like >"denude", which means "to strip". Figure that one out. Almost as if a >'word' like "dethaw" had been accepted into general usage. (No doubt >someone >will look it up for me). Ummm. "Nude" is an adjective. Denude means "to render something into a nude condition." By this analogy, "dethaw" would mean "to render something into a thaw condition," which is nonsense, because thaw is a verb. The prefix de- is not the same one as in de-ice. It has a different origin and meaning here. Mia From singram at videotron.ca Fri Aug 16 05:47:34 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 08:47:34 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) References: <20020816113635.43075.qmail@web21109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005201c24523$180025f0$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Caliann the Elf" To: "Steven Brust" ; Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 7:36 AM Subject: Re: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) > > > Steven Brust wrote: > We have a third choice: attempting to influence, so that the changes that > take place help to make the language more useful, flexible, and > powerful. I don't think simplicity vs complexity is the issue--the exact > details, and how they effect language, are the issue. > > **************************************************************************** ***************** > > Wow, why didn't you tell me in all this time you wished to be French? They use that sort of control over their language. > "I hope" that when Steve speaks of influencing the evolution of our language that he envisions people modifying their own language usage at home, in the workplace, and in the streets... which is where language evolves. "Hopefully" he's not about to promote official government bodies such as they use in Quebec, Canada (http://www.olf.gouv.qc.ca/) and in France (http://www.academie-francaise.fr/). The Quebec incarnation is a particularly ugly one, they go around ensuring that the text of bilingual signs display the French text at twice the size of the other language text, and that unilingual non-French signs are torn down/replaced. -Scott Ingram From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Aug 16 06:20:45 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:20:45 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <2B2F9802.60EB61FB.0296E7C9@aol.com> In a message dated Fri, 16 Aug 2002 5:12:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > I am suggesting that English is already so well supplied with imprecise > formulations that adding more is absurd. Introducing changes that make it > easy and natural to be imprecise is not something I can > conceive as being a > positive change. Out of curiosity, Steve, are you desiring English to be a dead language, where it no longer evolves or adds new constructs and words at all? This is not a facetious question, but an honest one. Because that's the impression I'm starting to get, so I thought I'd ask and if it isn't what you want, you can clarify what it is you DO want and remove my confusion. Stacy From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Aug 16 06:28:07 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:28:07 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <2B2F9802.60EB61FB.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <002C42A4-B11C-11D6-9ABC-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Friday, August 16, 2002, at 09:20 AM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated Fri, 16 Aug 2002 5:12:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, > skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > >> I am suggesting that English is already so well supplied with imprecise >> formulations that adding more is absurd. Introducing changes that >> make it >> easy and natural to be imprecise is not something I can >> conceive as being a >> positive change. > > > Out of curiosity, Steve, are you desiring English to be a dead > language, where it no longer evolves or adds new constructs and words > at all? This is not a facetious question, but an honest one. Because > that's the impression I'm starting to get, so I thought I'd ask and if > it isn't what you want, you can clarify what it is you DO want and > remove my confusion. > > Stacy He wants everyone to speak Hungarian, of course :-) From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Aug 16 06:33:46 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 16 Aug 2002 08:33:46 -0500 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <2B2F9802.60EB61FB.0296E7C9@aol.com> References: <2B2F9802.60EB61FB.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: Starshadw at aol.com writes: > In a message dated Fri, 16 Aug 2002 5:12:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > > > I am suggesting that English is already so well supplied with imprecise > > formulations that adding more is absurd. Introducing changes that make it > > easy and natural to be imprecise is not something I can > > conceive as being a > > positive change. > Out of curiosity, Steve, are you desiring English to be a dead > language, where it no longer evolves or adds new constructs and > words at all? This is not a facetious question, but an honest one. > Because that's the impression I'm starting to get, so I thought I'd > ask and if it isn't what you want, you can clarify what it is you DO > want and remove my confusion. Then you're not paying attention. He's explicitly talked about supporting certain kinds of changes, *and* he's explicitly acknowledged that changes happen without his consent from time to time. What more do you want? Any arbitrary change to be automatically supported? That you won't be getting, from Steven *or* me. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Aug 16 06:35:38 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 06:35:38 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <005201c24523$180025f0$17ecca18@ingram> References: <20020816113635.43075.qmail@web21109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816063447.0298bd90@localhost> At 08:47 AM 8/16/2002 -0400, Scott Ingram wrote: > > Steven Brust wrote: > > We have a third choice: attempting to influence, so that the changes that > > take place help to make the language more useful, flexible, and > > powerful. I don't think simplicity vs complexity is the issue--the exact > > details, and how they effect language, are the issue. > > > > >**************************************************************************** >***************** > > > > Wow, why didn't you tell me in all this time you wished to be French? >They use that sort of control over their language. > > >"I hope" that when Steve speaks of influencing the evolution of our language >that he envisions people modifying their own language usage at home, in the >workplace, and in the streets... which is where language evolves. Well, actually, I meant what I said in an earlier post. Mostly, if I don't like a usage, I avoid it. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Aug 16 06:37:30 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 06:37:30 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <2B2F9802.60EB61FB.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816063604.0298b250@localhost> At 09:20 AM 8/16/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >In a message dated Fri, 16 Aug 2002 5:12:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, >skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > > > I am suggesting that English is already so well supplied with imprecise > > formulations that adding more is absurd. Introducing changes that make it > > easy and natural to be imprecise is not something I can > > conceive as being a > > positive change. > > >Out of curiosity, Steve, are you desiring English to be a dead language, >where it no longer evolves or adds new constructs and words at all? I'm not sure how many times I am supposed to answer this one. No. I am well aware that language changes. I reserve the right to consider some of the changes good, and use them; and to consider other changes bad, and not use them, and even object to them under certain circumstances. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Aug 16 06:40:46 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 06:40:46 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <2B2F9802.60EB61FB.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816063822.0298d150@localhost> Repeated message, because I accidentally replied only to Stacy the first time: At 09:20 AM 8/16/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >In a message dated Fri, 16 Aug 2002 5:12:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, >skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > > > I am suggesting that English is already so well supplied with imprecise > > formulations that adding more is absurd. Introducing changes that make it > > easy and natural to be imprecise is not something I can > > conceive as being a > > positive change. > > >Out of curiosity, Steve, are you desiring English to be a dead language, >where it no longer evolves or adds new constructs and words at all? This >is not a facetious question, but an honest one. Because that's the >impression I'm starting to get, so I thought I'd ask and if it isn't what >you want, you can clarify what it is you DO want and remove my confusion. I'm not certain how many times I'm supposed to answer this. No. I am aware that language changes. I reserve the right to consider some changes good, and use them; and to consider other changes bad, and avoid using them, and even object to them under certain circumstances. From calianng_graves at yahoo.com Fri Aug 16 06:43:07 2002 From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 06:43:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816063447.0298bd90@localhost> Message-ID: <20020816134307.16163.qmail@web21104.mail.yahoo.com> Hhhmmm, to Stacy: Steve is NOT a stagnant person, either in language or in action. TRUST me on this one. As for the rest, if Steve EVER gets as snobbish as the French about language, I'll let all of you know and we can gather together in an effort to talk him out of such ideas. Perhaps over an open fire? To my love: mon cher, mon illuminate, mon amour, you say what you mean and mean what you say. I'll race you to learn Hungarian. With humor and love, Caliann Graves ICQ 43242946 *Owned and Operated in Heart by the Grand Poohbah Cheese of the Universe* "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Aug 16 07:02:09 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:02:09 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <348584D4.7ADDE365.0296E7C9@aol.com> (Text is snipped below from two Emails) Well, the reason I ask the question again is that #1: I don't think anyone can honestly say that they like every single new word that's ever been added to the English language, or that they like every single new way of using an old word, and #2: to point out the inconsistency that should be blatantly apparent. Steve's and David's responses beg the questions: Who gets to decide what is a good change and what is a bad change?? Where is this "line" to be drawn, or will it be completely arbitrary and there will be no guidelines?? Are we supposed to have a new department in the US government that decides how people get to use words to communicate? Or perhaps the Department of Education can handle it? But this only covers the US - I supposed we should approach ALL countries that speak English and get them involved, too. I think you see where I'm headed here. As I stated previously, I don't think anyone would say they like every single language change or addition. I know I certainly don't, and I myself often cringe at certain words or turns of phrase. Voicing a small complaint is one thing, but this discussion has gone past that to the point where it seems more like....well, like whining. "Why, oh why can't everyone use just the words *I* like in the ways *I* like to use them? People who "abuse" the language [according to the speaker's definition of abuse] should stop!" Well, please. That's not going to happen. I could understand your stridency a little better if you (plural here, not singular) were at least CONSISTENT about it. If you at least could say "I hate every single time the English language evolves and I wish it would stop" then I might not find this discussion increasingly silly because then your arguments would be logical. But that's not what you're saying. Essentially, you seem to be saying that you know better, and so anyone who dares step off the same use of language path that you're on is nasty, ignorant, or somehow defective. In which case, you're never going to be happy because there never will be an office whose job it is to tell people what words they can and can not use (at least let us sincerely hope not). Or I guess you could simply publish your addresses, phone numbers, and Emails and tell people that you know better, and if they use a word they should give you a call and ask if they are using it properly. This post is pretty blunt, but I'm really not trying to be offensive. Maybe my question should be: So what do you want to do about it? Is it just that you need to vent and complain for a bit? If so, OK then, vent away. Do you honestly think you can fix it or control it? If so, then please explain how. In other words, what is the point of the arguing and complaining? Just to argue for argument's sake, or is something actually supposed to be accomplished? Stacy In a message dated Fri, 16 Aug 2002 8:33:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, dd-b at dd-b.net writes: > Then you're not paying attention. He's explicitly talked about > supporting certain kinds of changes, *and* he's explicitly > acknowledged that changes happen without his consent from time to > time. What more do you want? Any arbitrary change to be > automatically supported? That you won't be getting, from > Steven *or* > me. In a message dated Fri, 16 Aug 2002 8:37:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > I'm not sure how many times I am supposed to answer this one. > > No. > > I am well aware that language changes. I reserve the right to consider > some of the changes good, and use them; and to consider other changes bad, > and not use them, and even object to them under certain > circumstances. From casey at trinityhartford.org Fri Aug 16 07:15:58 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:15:58 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <348584D4.7ADDE365.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: Starshadw at aol.com asked: > Who gets to decide what is a good change and what is a bad change?? Asked and answered, sir. Steve has made it clear that he reserves the right, as we all do and should to consider any particular change to English either good or bad. It is an opinion. One may express such opinions without casting aspersions on people who use the "bad". I think Steve has done a good job of explaining what he means. Others (myself included) may have muddied the waters a bit, and raised several questions in this discussion, but rereading Steve's posts, I see a consistent declaration of his position, most recently in his reply to your question. SKZB wrote: > I am well aware that language changes. I reserve the right to consider > some of the changes good, and use them; and to consider other changes bad, > and not use them, and even object to them under certain circumstances. This is the essence of "usage." Casey From singram at videotron.ca Fri Aug 16 07:16:11 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:16:11 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) References: <348584D4.7ADDE365.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <002201c2452f$79781ed0$17ecca18@ingram> > So what do you want to do about it? Is it just that you need to vent and complain for a bit? If so, OK then, vent away. Do you honestly think you can fix it or control it? If so, then please explain how. In other words, what is the point of the arguing and complaining? Just to argue for argument's sake, or is something actually supposed to be accomplished? > > Stacy I can't speak for Steve (or anyone else) but to the small extent that I'm involved in this conversation, it's for the pleasure of the argument and debate. As for something getting accomplished... You do realize that this is the internet right? Nothing ever gets done here!!! -Scott From mneme at io.com Fri Aug 16 07:21:50 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:21:50 -0500 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <33414.195.110.95.117.1029489569.squirrel@plokta.dyndns.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815134155.00acfb70@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815120226.029f19a0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815104810.029f41c0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814204805.00ab6e20@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020814193410.02a33950@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020816001330.00a859b0@localhost> <33414.195.110.95.117.1029489569.squirrel@plokta.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <15709.2686.803199.586237@hagbard.io.com> Mike Scott writes: >You certainly seem to be suggesting that imprecise constructs such as >"hopefully" have no place in the language, and that only precise ones >should be allowed. -If- Steven were suggesting that (which I do not think to be the case), then he'd be wrong -- "hopefully" and the like are useful words, which would have somewhat improved a recentish movie by its addition (as in "by now, my cousin -should- be able to welcome us to Moria"). >My position is similar to your position on knives -- I >like both of them, as long as they're used for an appropriate task. Quite. Though...with some exceptions, turning a precises word -into- a more generic one can be problematic (and not useful), just as turning a precise word into an offensive and avoided one can be. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Aug 16 07:25:48 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:25:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: Starshadw@aol.com's message <348584D4.7ADDE365.0296E7C9@aol.com> of 16 August 2002 References: <348584D4.7ADDE365.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <15709.2924.651473.186063@gw.dd-b.net> Starshadw at aol.com writes on 16 August 2002 at 10:02:09 -0400 > (Text is snipped below from two Emails) > > Well, the reason I ask the question again is that #1: I don't think > anyone can honestly say that they like every single new word that's > ever been added to the English language, or that they like every > single new way of using an old word, and #2: to point out the > inconsistency that should be blatantly apparent. Steve's and > David's responses beg the questions: > > Who gets to decide what is a good change and what is a bad change?? > > Where is this "line" to be drawn, or will it be completely > arbitrary and there will be no guidelines?? > > Are we supposed to have a new department in the US government that > decides how people get to use words to communicate? Or perhaps the > Department of Education can handle it? But this only covers the US > - I supposed we should approach ALL countries that speak English > and get them involved, too. > > I think you see where I'm headed here. Yes. You can't conceive of anything happening by any method other than central regulation. Whereas this is so completely foreign to the way I think that it has no bearing on my position at all. If I don't like a new usage, I avoid using it and I complain when other people use it, and attempt to explain why it's bad. Individually, it's very unlikely that I will make or break a new usage. However, *everybody* does this, consciously or not. And, in the end, the usage is widely adopted for a while, or it isn't. None of this involves the American Academy pronouncing on the usage. I've never suggested such an approach. I've never done anything but express my own opinions and the reasoning behind them. > As I stated previously, I don't think anyone would say they like > every single language change or addition. I know I certainly > don't, and I myself often cringe at certain words or turns of > phrase. Voicing a small complaint is one thing, but this > discussion has gone past that to the point where it seems more > like....well, like whining. "Why, oh why can't everyone use just > the words *I* like in the ways *I* like to use them? People who > "abuse" the language [according to the speaker's definition of > abuse] should stop!" Well, please. That's not going to happen. > I could understand your stridency a little better if you (plural > here, not singular) were at least CONSISTENT about it. If you at > least could say "I hate every single time the English language > evolves and I wish it would stop" then I might not find this > discussion increasingly silly because then your arguments would be > logical. But that's not what you're saying. Essentially, you seem > to be saying that you know better, and so anyone who dares step off > the same use of language path that you're on is nasty, ignorant, or > somehow defective. In which case, you're never going to be happy > because there never will be an office whose job it is to tell > people what words they can and can not use (at least let us > sincerely hope not). If you think *this* is strident, I guess you don't watch the news or read the newspaper much. This is a calm, rational, discussion, with no name-calling (until yours just now) or insults being thrown around, a respectful discussion among adults. Compare to politics, or newspaper letter columns sometime. > Or I guess you could simply publish your addresses, phone numbers, > and Emails and tell people that you know better, and if they use a > word they should give you a call and ask if they are using it > properly. Always happy to provide advice. I'm in the phone book. > This post is pretty blunt, but I'm really not trying to be > offensive. Maybe my question should be: > > So what do you want to do about it? Is it just that you need to > vent and complain for a bit? If so, OK then, vent away. Do you > honestly think you can fix it or control it? If so, then please > explain how. In other words, what is the point of the arguing and > complaining? Just to argue for argument's sake, or is something > actually supposed to be accomplished? This is one stall in the "marketplace of ideas", the language section. People discuss new stuff coming around, and each day by how they speak and write they spread their decisions. I hope to change some people's decisions, of course; at least to make them think more, and I hope sometimes to change their minds about certain things. You accuse me of being inconsistent because I don't have the same opinion about every single proposed change. Why do you want or expect that? I don't have the same opinion about every new proposed law, or every new book, or every new food. Why would you expect or want me to have the same opinion about every proposed change to the language? Do *you* have the same opinion about every single proposed change to the language? Do you support *every single one*? You say above that you don't. The whole point is to *not* mindlessly accept or reject, but to consider the effects, look at the costs and the benefits, and make a *considered* choice for or against each case. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Aug 16 07:25:18 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 07:25:18 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <348584D4.7ADDE365.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816072227.00acb770@localhost> At 10:02 AM 8/16/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: >Who gets to decide what is a good change and what is a bad change?? Excellent question! My own answer is: anyone who cares enough to argue about it. >Where is this "line" to be drawn, or will it be completely arbitrary and >there will be no guidelines?? No, there will be no guidelines--just a lot of us doing what we've been doing: arguing each case on its merits. All of which will, at best, accomplish little, but *might* accomplish something. Oh--and improving education of basic language skills would help some, I think. >Essentially, you seem to be saying that you know better, and so anyone who >dares step off the same use of language path that you're on is nasty, >ignorant, or somehow defective. That's pretty close. But I expect them to feel the same way about the changes I like that they don't, and to argue with me about them. :-) From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Aug 16 07:27:21 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 07:27:21 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <002201c2452f$79781ed0$17ecca18@ingram> References: <348584D4.7ADDE365.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816072658.00ac4340@localhost> At 10:16 AM 8/16/2002 -0400, Scott Ingram wrote: >I can't speak for Steve (or anyone else) but to the small extent that I'm >involved in this conversation, it's for the pleasure of the argument and >debate. Well, yeah, that's a big part of it. :-) From calianng_graves at yahoo.com Fri Aug 16 07:29:13 2002 From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 07:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <348584D4.7ADDE365.0296E7C9@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020816142913.96506.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> Whoa, whoa, whoa....easy Stacy. Steve isn't saying that he wants to decide which words get usage and which do not. Only which words HE will use and which changes HE accepts. He certainly does not desire to make those decisions for anyone besides himself. ( myself excluded) I am running for Empress of North America in 2008, so , if you vote for me, *I'll* decide which words enter the American-English language, agreed? I am much nicer than Steve about new words. I happen to LIKE new words. Maybe it is the computer-geek in me ( that is what I do for a living) that thrives on new words and new definitions. Give me time and maybe I'll "larn hem sum new uns". With Love and Peace, Caliann *Servant of the Sage of the English Language and Keeper of the Oxford English Unabridged Dictionary.* "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs From mneme at io.com Fri Aug 16 07:52:12 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:52:12 -0500 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquintance with their length In-Reply-To: <20020816043909.GC10352@infodancer.org> References: <16f.122a3942.2a8cc4ca@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815105845.00abb530@localhost> <20020816043909.GC10352@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <15709.4508.291271.881260@hagbard.io.com> Matthew Hunter writes: >My question, then, is this: > >Vlad continually refers to the advantages of Eastern-style fencing >over the Dragaeran hack-and-slash style, with very heavy, broad >blades (that, in fact, he is nearly unable to lift on one >occasion). In contrast, the Paarfi novels clearly are written as >Dumas pastiches, and as such, the appropriate sword form is the >rapier; this is borne out by the cover art of both 500YA and tPG, >as well as the descriptions of swordfights within, at least in >some cases. (Tazendra uses either a broadsword or a >hand-and-a-half sword; Khaavren and the others appear to carry >and fight with rapiers). > >So, what's up with that? I've got my own explaination for that, which relates to my own problem with swords in the books. [um. I'm a historical and classical fencer with a fair amount of training. I'll try to explain and/or footnote any terminlogy I use, but I may miss some. ] The initial problem is that, as far as modern terminology is concerned. Vlad doesn't fight with a rapier [1]. He's constantly talking about parry-ripostes, stop cuts, and a bunch of things you can't, or shouldn't do with a rapier -- instead, he appears to be fencing (with a somewhat cut-oriented style) with a smallsword [2] or dueling sabre, which he's calling a rapier (which makes sense for the smallsword, since the transition from rapier to smallsword was a largely smooth -- people didn't suddenly start calling their weapons smallswords so much as that we look at two -very- different styles of weapons and several languages, and point to one set of weapons and call them all a rapiers, and another and call them all smallswords). By this logic, the civilian Draegeran weapon is probably some form of rapier (well, some of them are, anyways) -- very well trained Dragerans probably use it stesso-tempo with occasional cuts; Dragons generally probably prefer battle-swords (longswords) with similar theory but very different handling characteristics, and there are probably a few other weapons on use. [1] In modern parlance, a rapier is a 36-45" (aprox) long weapon which could both cut and thrust but preferred the thrust, in civilian use from about the 1400's to the early 1700s. All known masters, of this weapon, AFAIK, advised avoiding/blocking an attack at the same time as the counterattack (ie Stesso tempo -- "at the same time") rather than stopping/parrying the attack, and -then- responding (duo-tempi -- two times). [2] A smallsword was a 30" long weapon, almost exclusively cut-centered (though it was usually sharped at least a third of its length, and often all the way up), extremely light, and one of the first weapons light and fast enough to perform the parry-riposte effectively. It was, in fact, exteremly deadly, though its adaption seemed to be as much fashion (and the fact that it can be worn for long periods much more comfortably than a rapier-lenght weapon) and metalurgy as armnament -- it's also a civilian weapon, of course. French smallswords generally used abreiviated guards, with a handguard but no functional quillions, and were held in the style of a modern french weapon (mostly); Italian smallswords were basically very small rapiers, with a smaller guard but functional quillions and hand-guard. I have no idea what Hungarian smallswords looked like. :) -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From mneme at io.com Fri Aug 16 07:52:44 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:52:44 -0500 Subject: ConJose In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15709.4540.310823.6458@hagbard.io.com> Nytemuse writes: >So how many people will be coming to ConJose (WorldCon) this month? I'm >not sure how many Bay Areans there are, or if anyone's flying in, but just >curious. I'll be there (for my first time) and promoting Strange >Horizons. I'll be there, flying in from NYC. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From calianng_graves at yahoo.com Fri Aug 16 08:15:46 2002 From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 08:15:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <15709.2924.651473.186063@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <20020816151546.86484.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> CHILDREN! Irony is accepted, sarcasm is not. There is no reason to make snide remarks nor is there reason to logically attack another. I am the Queen of logic, and I recognize an intellectual attack. So why don't we just calm down sweetly and use some irony, hhhmmmm? You give an attack power if you respond with an attack. You also give an attack power if you respond with defense. Only when you respond with humor does an attack lose it's power. Emotion has no place in an intellectual debate. Remember that.:):):) With love and hugs, Caliann *Owned and Operated by the Great Sage of All Dictionaries.* "People are offended all the time......it's a hobby for manyof them." --Author Unknown "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Aug 16 08:23:58 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:23:58 -0500 (CDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: Caliann the Elf's message <20020816151546.86484.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> of 16 August 2002 References: <15709.2924.651473.186063@gw.dd-b.net> <20020816151546.86484.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <15709.6414.530733.647905@gw.dd-b.net> Caliann the Elf writes on 16 August 2002 at 08:15:46 -0700 > CHILDREN! Irony is accepted, sarcasm is not. There is no > reason to make snide remarks nor is there reason to logically > attack another. I am the Queen of logic, and I recognize an > intellectual attack. So why don't we just calm down sweetly and > use some irony, hhhmmmm? In the absence of quotes it's a bit confusing to guess what you're talking about. > You give an attack power if you respond with an attack. You also > give an attack power if you respond with defense. Only when you > respond with humor does an attack lose it's power. Responding with humor tends to mean ridicule, yes? Which is escalating more than I really want. And acknowledging the valid points an attacker makes is important etiquette, and gives no additional power (if one cares about that). > Emotion has no place in an intellectual debate. Remember > that.:):):) Which is why you're suggesting a basically emotional architecture for thinking about attacks and responses? -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From mneme at io.com Fri Aug 16 08:30:35 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:30:35 -0500 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <20020816115157.51131.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816043601.029b2e00@localhost> <20020816115157.51131.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <15709.6811.389798.198803@hagbard.io.com> Caliann the Elf writes: > Steven Brust wrote: >>We have a third choice: attempting to influence, so that the changes that >>take place help to make the language more useful, flexible, and >>powerful. I don't think simplicity vs complexity is the issue--the exact >>details, and how they effect language, are the issue. >Wow, why didn't you tell me in all this time you wished to be French? >They use that sort of control over their language. No -- the French government attempts to use that sort of control over the French language. By contrast, -all- of us use the kind of influence Steve is describing with our language -- and about everything else we are participatory in creating; simply by what words we chose to create, learn, adapt, use, and ignore. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From Chrisf.Olson at sun.com Fri Aug 16 08:50:42 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at sun.com (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 08:50:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <200208161550.g7GFoSo14043@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Chris, I don't know where you got your information from, but it's > incorrect. Mark, Thanks! See... I learned something new today... :) Thanks for the correction! Now I'll have to go reanalyze my way of thinking (great, more to do...:) Cheers! Chris From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Aug 16 09:04:31 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:04:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hopefully - Found it! :) Message-ID: <200208161604.g7GG4Ho16212@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Finaly found the passage in "Line by Line" by Claire Kehrwald Cook, in which is written: Hopefully - Word watchers who wince at what some call a "dangling hopefully" have much to endure these days. "Hopefully" sometimes seems to begin every third sentence, but only rarely does the sentence indicate who is full of hope. The adverb is unexcetionable when it means "in a hopeful manner," as in 'The candidates are hopefully awaiting the election results,' but it's suspect in 'Hopefully the results will be favorable,' where no one is behaving hopefully. Some critics maintain that you cannot make hopefully mean "it is hoped that." If that's the sense you intend, that's the wording you should use--or, less formally, 'I hope that' or 'let's hope that.' While you still risk criticism if you use a dangling hopefully, many commentators seem resigned to this usage, bowing to its wide popularity.....A note in the 1982 edition of the American Heritage Dictionary, while not condemning the secondary sense of hopefully as incorrect, concludes that it has become "such a bugbear to traditionalists that it is best avoided on grounds of civility." You might decide to forgo the controversial hopefully simply because it's overworked, but if you object to it as ungrammatical, you should recognize that certain other adverbs are in the same category. Any adverb describing a mental attitude is inappropriate, by strict standards, in a sentence that does not indicate who has that attitude. If 'hopefully' is incorrect in 'Hopefully it is not true,' words like sorrowfully and regretfully would also be wrong. But adverbs like fortunately and regrettably, which do not describe states of mind, are acceptable sentence modifiers; they mean "it is fortunate that" and "it is regretable that." 'Regrettably' can safely replace the objectionable 'regretfully' in a sentence like 'Regretfully, the trains don't leave at convenient times.' Unfortunately, English does not have a 'hopably' to replace the questionable 'hopefully' in 'Hopefully, the trains will run on time.' Taken from Line by Line (which is a pretty good book, >from all that I've read.) Just thought I'd share another opinion on the subject...:) Chris From mam at theworld.com Fri Aug 16 09:16:12 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:16:12 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <3D5C2506.3C22B674@attbi.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Mia McDavid wrote: #How we think: [...] #If I have a point here, it is that modes of thought, and the #relationship between thought process and language, are complex and not #entirely understood. Some people can learn by hearing. Some people #cannot learn without seeing. Some people learn better without language, #but by seeing objects and images. # #So, yes, we're all different here. Ah, you've keyed me to an important personal point. Our son and our foster son both have learning disabilities that interfere with writing. They are also both, as measured, way up at the top ends of the "intelligence" scales. For our foster son, expressing his thoughts in speech was an effort; they raced on, usually quite soundly, far in advance of his ability to express them. And handwriting was not the automatic process most of us assume it to be: he literally could not write without conscious attention to constructing the shape of each letter. Of course, this effort almost destroyed any attempt to express his thoughts in handwriting, and made his speech noticeably slow and halting. This tended to be reflected in his grades, but for the SATs we (i.e., my wife) got the proper Special Ed. permissions for him to take them untimed, and, iirc, write his essays on a computer. He is now beginning his senior year at Berkeley in physics. Yes, we do think in different ways. This is a key point for Special Education advocates, and something that affects everyone in some way. -- Mark A. Mandel From casey at trinityhartford.org Fri Aug 16 09:17:07 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:17:07 -0400 Subject: Hopefully - Found it! :) In-Reply-To: <200208161604.g7GG4Ho16212@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: Chris Olson quoted an example from Line by Line: > 'The candidates are hopefully awaiting the election results,' I would say that contrary to the statement from the text, this is exactly the sort of usage that has been made vague by the additional meaning of hopefully. Either meaning works in this sentence, especially when spoken. The candidates are (hopefully) awaiting the election results. (as opposed to some other, less useful activity) The candidates are hopefully awaiting the election results. (in anticipation of their hoped-for results) From Chrisf.Olson at sun.com Fri Aug 16 09:17:15 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at sun.com (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:17:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) Message-ID: <200208161617.g7GGH1o18177@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > But these are adaptations of existing words to new meanings. I wasn't > clear. "Cab" was not invented to refer to taxicabs; it was applied to > cabriolets and other horse-drawn vehicles, and then to motor vehicles, > and now only to motor vehicles for hire and usually equipped with a > (ta-dahh!) taximeter to calculate the fare. (Oh, also to a part of a > locomotive, etc.) "Carriage" meant an act of carrying or the manner of > carrying for centuries before it was applied to a vehicle. Between this list and the Cthulhu lists I'm on, I'm gaining a multitude of new information... :) > Language does much, much more than express truth-value meaning. > It demonstrates group membership (I talk like one of OUR people; that > person doesn't), attitude (I scorn the person I am talking about: "and > then what do you think the b*****d did?"), and many other things. A > language without slang is like a kitchen without pepper. Heh. I like... And don't get me wrong. I'm not saying slang is bad, or that words should stay stagnant. Aside from the fact that it's impossible, it would be boring. However, I also feel that many english speakers have become "lazy" over the years (I've been training myself to not be as lazy in this regard...:) This, in some areas, is perfectly fine with me. In other areas, I feel it devalues the language. > What remedy do you recommend? I actualy don't. I'm just being philosophical. And, I tend to like arguments. Good for the brain, and I learn alot that way... :) > Of course not. That's my point. What's yours? I mean that literally, not > as challenge. Now I'll have to go back and see if I can find an earlier email... but it seemed (and I could be wrong, as I've been responding to multiple people:) that someone mentioned that it's people's usage of a word that defines it's meaning, as in the sense of the word "hopefully." People start using it, and it generates a word. Think of "higgley-piggley" as well. Not a real "word" per se, but people started using it, and now it's out there. Perhaps I should have expanded the "dictionaries getting together to change the word 'fig'" to "english-language users get together to change..." If you're saying people can't just get together and change a word that's already been established, what happened to nauseous? 'Course, it's early now, and I'm probably confused on who's saying what...:) (as an aside, I'm enjoying the discussion. If I get too annoying, just let me know...:) Chris From mam at theworld.com Fri Aug 16 09:22:39 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:22:39 -0400 Subject: Dragaera? Human? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Sakura Dreamz wrote: #Um, does anyone know the exact different of a Dragaerian and a Easterner? I #mean, I know that Dragaerian's are like, taller and such but is there #anything else? They're not actually dragons, right? See http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/peoples.html#DvsE (And -- excuse me, but: there's no "i" in "Dragaer<>an".) -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mam at theworld.com Fri Aug 16 09:28:43 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:28:43 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 15 Aug 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: #Oops, saw this in direct email without the list in the headers, so #I've already replied privately. So you'll see something like this #twice Mark, sorry. My fault, actually, because I didn't hit "reply to all" and had to forward to the list. Some other lists I'm on have a "Reply-to:" in the header, and I'm used to that. #> But when "cab" was first extended to what is now its sole meaning (as #> far as road vehicles go), people surely objected just as you're #> objecting to the extension of "hopefully". Were they right? # #Depends if the technology was more important (that particular kind of #carriage needed to keep its own special name and the abbreviation #thereof) or if the use was more important (a name was needed to refer #to for-hire vehicles). Given the ongoing importance of small #two-wheel carriages, I think a sensible choice was made. And given the apparent importance to many people of being able to express an optimistic prediction concisely, and since that use does not cause confusion with the older use, I think the sentence adverb "hopefully" is a sensible creation. BTW -- I love this discussion TOO MUCH. I am going to drop out of it very soon, and maybe all OT: discussions on this list; it is taking way too much of my time. :-( [Mark M, ironically] #> Oh, dear, shouldn't they be inventing new words? Or am I confusing your #> position with Steve's or someone else's? # #What's being done doesn't make the existing words less useful, so it's #not against *my* principle's. Or Steven's either if I understand that #right. One of the reasons I like them so well is that they clearly #represent play by highly-literate people. They build on and work with #the existing meanings, rather than clashing with them. I agree. The play is clear to those of us who understand it. "Cookie? Gimme cookie!" -- Mark A. Mandel From attjen at gwu.edu Fri Aug 16 09:37:56 2002 From: attjen at gwu.edu (Matt Jennings) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:37:56 -0400 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquintance with their length Message-ID: <3D5D3E91@webmailbackup> Don't forget that one of the most important factors in the different styles (Eastern vs Dragaerian) is the stance. Vlad uses the 'modern' side stance, which exposes little of his body. This means he can parry/attack with one hand while using his other to do his little tricks. (throw knives, shurikens, etc...) Khaavren et al use a full-face stance, meaning they usually need a poinard to defend that side of their body. If they happen not to have one, just check out the results in 500ya (Garland & co. vs. our heroes). I think that most of the duel/fighting descriptions in PG and 500ya do a good job of showing how both hands (poinard & sword) are generally used for attack and defense in the Dragaerian style. That is, except for Bruce Le... excuse me, Aerich. Khaavren does seem to exhibit the mentality of an epee fencer (which if memory serves is what skzb himself said he used to do) in that he won't necessarily go for the kill, but contents himself with making little hits & scratches, until his opponnent makes a mistake or gets frustrated. In the Vlad books, it is more difficult to see how he does what he does... but then Vlad cheats. MattJ "Forward in all directions." - 3m3 From mam at theworld.com Fri Aug 16 09:38:47 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:38:47 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815233202.029cb3e0@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: #Is it your position that because people objected to certain changes that #later proved useful, all objections to changes are bound to prove #useful? I don't think that argument will hold up. # #I don't remember anyone stating that language either does not or ought not #to change. Is it your position that all changes to the language should be #instantly approved of and used by everyone when they first enter? # #My position can be expressed as follows: Some changes to the language make #it more flexible, powerful, and precise. Other changes make the language #more rigid, weak, and vague. I support the former by employing the new #usages as they occur, and oppose the latter by not using them, and by #objecting to them when they happen to come up as a subjects of conversation. # #What is your position? With regard to the innovation under discussion, the use of "hopefully" as a sentence adverb, my position is that 1. It is useful. It provides a convenient way of expressing something that is difficult to express otherwise -- see my previous post quoting the Usage Note from AHD4 and commenting on it. 2. It does not interfere with previous usage. The sentence-adverbial use of "hopefully" is usually syntactically distinct from the simple adverbial use. Do you have any trouble telling which is which in these sentences? 1. Hopefully, the override will pass. 2. "The override will pass," he said hopefully. 3. Working hopefully, we will get the override passed. (Actually, #3 is pretty strange. "Working with hope" would imho be more natural.) Can you come up with any sentences where one use could easily be mistaken for the other? How hard did you have to try to develop those examples? What rough proportion of the number of simple-adverb uses could be easily mistaken for sentence-adverb uses, and vice versa? In short, what's the cost-benefit ratio of the new construction? I think it's strongly on the side of benefit. I am going to have to drop out of this discussion soon because it's absorbing me too much. Phooey. -- Mark A. Mandel From mneme at io.com Fri Aug 16 09:39:59 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:39:59 -0500 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15709.10975.443706.233911@hagbard.io.com> Mark A Mandel writes: >My fault, actually, because I didn't hit "reply to all" and had to >forward to the list. Some other lists I'm on have a "Reply-to:" in the >header, and I'm used to that. Actually, this is a pretty good example of why genralizing a language is bad -- by adding a "reply to: list" field, lists tend to blur the semantic distinction between "reply to the whole list" and "reply to just the person who sent this", thus making it harder, in general, to say "no, I want to send to just this person", or alternatively "no, I want to send to the whole list" in contexts where that isn't treated as the default. [1] [1] Which isn't to open that topic, since there are good arguments on both sides, the ones on the other one than mine generally being that there isn't a decent way to stop names from piling up on both sides without user trimming otherwise; a failing in the protocol and the way the software has grown...and paradoxically, since I've made some modifications to ignore reply-tos on replies, but not on followups for lists, I actually find lists with reply-to set more convenient -because- it means that (for me) when I hit "r" it goes only to the user, and when I hit "f" it goes (only) to the list [and anyone CCed). -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From mam at theworld.com Fri Aug 16 09:41:22 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:41:22 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815234105.029ceb80@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: #At 07:56 PM 8/15/2002 -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote: #>On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: #> #>#I have often closed my eyes and called up a pleasing picture. That is not #>#thinking, that is exercising my memory. If I make conclusions about that #>#picture, such as, "I'd like to go back to that beach," or, "I wonder what #>#she's up to today?" I am thinking. But sometimes--often--those pictures #>#merely call up emotion, they bring with them feelings. That is *feeling* #>#it is not *thinking*. #> #>Now suppose you're planning a day at that beach as part of a road trip. #>You know the roads in the area pretty well, but you'll be driving there #>from a different place than you usually do. You start figuring out how #>to get from point A to point B. What goes on in your mind? # #A sudden desire to call up someone who can read maps. If I *could* read #maps, or had any geographical skill, I would use those techniques to make #decisions. In other words, I would be manipulating symbols in my mind. I #call this activity "thinking." So do I, but that's not thinking in language. What about packing stuff into a small space? What about comparing colors and what would look good next to what else, or what's a good sequence of chords, or -- heck, Steve, figuring out how to drum to a particular song? Do you figure THAT verbally? -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Fri Aug 16 09:43:52 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:43:52 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <200208161617.g7GGH1o18177@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: #If you're saying people can't just get together and change a word #that's already been established, what happened to nauseous? #'Course, it's early now, and I'm probably confused on who's saying #what...:) People don't "just get together and change a word". Nobody plans these changes, much less by committee! They come out of people's usage and their unconscious reaction to other people's usage, just like almost all language change. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From FelixEisen at aol.com Fri Aug 16 09:46:09 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:46:09 EDT Subject: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain Message-ID: <153.128eb711.2a8e8651@aol.com> > > >When will _The Paths of the Dead_ hit store shelves? > > > > November, I believe. All good things come in November -- my birthday, my SO's birthday, the gold edition of 'Fellowship of the Ring', _Paths_of_the_Dead_, Thanksgiving ... Knightmarshall Felix Surnamed Eisen, or "Iron Felix" Hand of Morr, The Order of Bones From mam at theworld.com Fri Aug 16 09:48:32 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:48:32 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815133215.02a36ec0@localhost> Message-ID: Whoops. I started this reply and then put it on the stack while checking the thread. Then I forgot that I'd spiked it, and referred to it as "my earlier post", although I'm only about to send it now. Sorry for the confusion!! -- Mark A. Mandel, chronologically impaired On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: #> Many other adverbs (as #>interestingly, frankly, clearly, luckily, unfortunately) are similarly #>used; most are so ordinary as to excite no comment or interest #>whatsoever. The second sense of hopefully is entirely standard. # #Interestingly means, "this interests me and ought to interest you." There #is no ambiguity. Same with frankly, luckily, and clearly. The problem #with hopefully is its ambiguity. Well, now... ISTM that "hopefully" runs parallel to "luckily": X thinks that the event referred to is a good thing, "luckily" if it is known to be the case, "hopefully" if its actuality is in doubt (either future or already fixed but not known to the speaker). And if the definitions that we can find in dictionaries don't reflect this parallelism, maybe it's because people's intuitions about "hopefully", when they tried to look at them, were still in flux at the time, and maybe they still are. Hmm. American Heritage Dict, 4th edn, 2000: ===== Usage Note ... It is not easy to explain why critics dislike this use of "hopefully". The use is justified by analogy to similar uses of many other advers, as in "Mercifully, the play was brief" or "Frankly, I have no use for your friend". ... Someone who says "Hopefully, the treaty will be ratified" makes a hopeful prediction about the fate of the treaty, whereas someone who says "I hope" (or "We hope" or "It is hoped") "the treaty will be ratified" expresses a bald statement about what is desired. Only the latter could be continued with a clause such as "but it isn't likely". ... It is not the use of sentence adverbs per se that bothers the [AHD's Usage] Panel; rather the specific use of "hopefully" in this way has become a shibboleth. shibboleth n. 1. A word or pronunciation that distinguishes people of one group or class from those of another. ... 3. A custom or practice that betrays one as an outsider. ===== Intending no disrespect to the rear guard, I nevertheless agree with the Usage Note. I can see no harm done to the language by adding this use of "hopefully" to the old one, which is not generally confusable with it. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Fri Aug 16 09:55:04 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:55:04 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <15709.6811.389798.198803@hagbard.io.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Joshua Kronengold wrote: #By contrast, -all- of us use the kind of influence Steve is describing #with our language -- and about everything else we are participatory #in creating; simply by what words we chose to create, learn, adapt, use, and #ignore. # On both paragraphs, agreed! -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From RuhlenR at missouri.edu Fri Aug 16 10:00:00 2002 From: RuhlenR at missouri.edu (Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student)) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:00:00 -0500 Subject: Changing language (was: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity) Message-ID: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E01245379@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark A Mandel [mailto:mam at theworld.com] > Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 11:55 AM > To: Joshua Kronengold > Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) > > > On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Joshua Kronengold wrote: > > #By contrast, -all- of us use the kind of influence Steve is > describing #with our language -- and about everything else we > are participatory #in creating; simply by what words we chose > to create, learn, adapt, use, and #ignore. # bracelets together, reminiscent of a certain #Janet Kagan > novel that everyone should read> > > On both paragraphs, agreed! would cause my bracelets to jangle if I had them> And the books we read influences are language. It's now common to hear in my family "I've been asking for nothing less for the last hour!" :) Rachel From mneme at io.com Fri Aug 16 10:00:15 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:00:15 -0500 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquintance with their length In-Reply-To: <3D5D3E91@webmailbackup> References: <3D5D3E91@webmailbackup> Message-ID: <15709.12191.8341.761605@hagbard.io.com> Matt Jennings writes: >Don't forget that one of the most important factors in the different styles >(Eastern vs Dragaerian) is the stance. >Vlad uses the 'modern' side stance, which exposes little of his body. This >means he can parry/attack with one hand while using his other to do >his little tricks. (throw knives, shurikens, etc...) >Khaavren et al use a full-face stance, meaning they usually need a poinard to >defend that side of their body. It actually goes the other way -- smallsword fencers tend to use a somewhat more extreme stance, since the smallsword is fast enough that fencing tends to get a bit linear (and in 18th century duels, off-hand weapons -tended- to be discouraged, though they were certainly used for both fencing and self defense; it also helps that the speed difference between an off-hand weapon and a smallsword is -much- less than that between a dagger and a rapier or heavier weapon; this means that it doesn't improve your defense nearly as much); a slightly less extreme (ie, 45 degree) stance is much more defensive, since you've got better three dimensional movement and can bring an off-hand or off-hand weapon into play (and can do a stesso-tempo attack by parrying with the dagger, rather than having to oppose with your blade while moving your body enough that your point is also attacking; something that's very good...but very hard). Basically, like the style, the stance comes >from the weapon and the best way to use it, not the other way around. Earlier weapons, incidentally, tended to use an off-side-fowrward stance and attack on the pass (by crossing your feet, ending sword-side forward) rather than the lunge (a big step with your sword-side foot, which started forward); I don't know enought about this style of fighting to speak about it with authority, but I get the impression that this was because of an even greater reliance on stesso tempo (thus the counter-attack on the pass would force your opponent to commit to their action and give you a better chance of success on counterattack) and circular action. [rapier fencing involved attacks on both the pass and the lunge; smallsword generally only involved attacks on the lunge or step, since circular actions were somewhat less important] >I think that most of the duel/fighting descriptions in PG and 500ya do a good >job of showing how both hands (poinard & sword) are generally used for attack >and defense in the Dragaerian style. That is, except for Bruce Le... excuse >me, Aerich. Hmm. I need to re-read 500 years after. >Khaavren does seem to exhibit the mentality of an epee fencer (which >if memory serves is what skzb himself said he used to do) in that he >won't necessarily go for the kill, but contents himself with making >little hits & scratches, until his opponnent makes a mistake or gets >frustrated. This actually feels very sabre-like (and we do know that Vlad does sabre as well as whatever art he calls "rapier") -- go for the kill if it's offered, but strike the closest and easiest available target. Actually, Silver (English shortsword, 1600's) recommends something similar -- a quick stop-cut on an oponent's advance, followed by stepping back; mind, with his weapon a quick cut could easily disable an opponent, but still... >In the Vlad books, it is more difficult to see how he does what he >does... but then Vlad cheats. He does seem to use a fair number of stop-cuts to the extremities, combined with lunges. I'm actually surprised, given the strength advantage, that none of Vlad's opponents have closed and gripped -- it seems to very well fit the styles they use, and would likely be fairly effective if he didn't have a dagger on hand at the time (but that's the trick, isn't it?). -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Aug 16 10:05:15 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:05:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <200208161705.g7GH51o26957@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > We say, "I'm involved in a relationship with Susan." What does > "relationship" mean in that context? Do you know? Can you define it? In regards to this, would qualifying it be better? If one was to say "I have a purely sexual, open and honest relationship with Susan", would that be a more accurate use of the word? I'm actualy really curious about this one, as the word is used constantly, and I've always had trouble with it... Thanks! Chris From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Aug 16 10:07:32 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:07:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) Message-ID: <200208161707.g7GH7Io27482@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > What is your position? Currently? In front of my computer, sitting... (Sorry, had to...:) Chris From nytemuse at auros.org Fri Aug 16 10:21:05 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:21:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816072227.00acb770@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: > At 10:02 AM 8/16/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > >Who gets to decide what is a good change and what is a bad change?? > Excellent question! > My own answer is: anyone who cares enough to argue about it. I think this kind of answers itself, as "good" and "bad" are rather subjective and/or personal terms. By which I mean; what _I_ think is good may be bad to Mr. X down the street. So I think it has to be a personal decision, as I hesitate to think that there will EVER be a universal agreement on what is good/bad. As long as we don't try and tell others what is good/bad, what does it matter? If we individually think that a new word is bad or inadequate, we can choose not to use it. And if someone asks, just say "I don't particularly care for that word, so I use alternatives" *shrug* And, maybe if you support your case well, others can be turned and the word will eventually be phased out. But I think that approach will have more of a positive effect than an all-out aggressive attack. ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From rone at ennui.org Fri Aug 16 10:31:16 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815132932.029f2b30@localhost> Message-ID: <20020816173116.DEA2426E2D@boredom.ennui.org> Steven Brust writes: But I certainly agree with David that sloppy writing indicates sloppy thinking. I am not certain I can prove, or even defend this belief. I think it might be symptomatic, but it can simply indicate inherent sloppiness in the writer; that is, not sloppy thinking, but sloppy doing. rone -- {Reagan's} presidency always reminded me of a remark made by a woman to Heywood Broun following Secretariat's victory in the Triple Crown. After the trauma of Vietnam and Watergate, she said, Secretariat had "restored her faith in humanity." I like to think Reagan was the Secretariat of the eighties. - Garry Trudeau From nytemuse at auros.org Fri Aug 16 10:38:17 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:38:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ConJose In-Reply-To: <15709.4540.310823.6458@hagbard.io.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Joshua Kronengold wrote: > Nytemuse writes: > >So how many people will be coming to ConJose (WorldCon) this month? I'm > >not sure how many Bay Areans there are, or if anyone's flying in, but just > >curious. I'll be there (for my first time) and promoting Strange > >Horizons. > I'll be there, flying in from NYC. Well, anyone going to be there, drop by the Strange Horizons tea party on Saturday and say hi! (That's the only place I know I'll be for sure over the weekend, 'cept our hotel suite at night.) ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From nytemuse at auros.org Fri Aug 16 10:41:56 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:41:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquintance with their length In-Reply-To: <3D5D3E91@webmailbackup> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Matt Jennings wrote: > Don't forget that one of the most important factors in the different styles > (Eastern vs Dragaerian) is the stance. > I think that most of the duel/fighting descriptions in PG and 500ya do a good > job of showing how both hands (poinard & sword) are generally used for attack > and defense in the Dragaerian style. That is, except for Bruce Le... excuse > me, Aerich. *wince* OK, I've been good on not correcting grammar, but can we correct spelling, Steve? I believe the accepted spelling is "Dragaeran" (no i). I wouldn't send it to the list, but I think I saw another person misspell... *crosses fingers hoping not to be flamed* ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From singram at videotron.ca Fri Aug 16 11:13:52 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:13:52 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) References: <200208161707.g7GH7Io27482@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <017101c24550$ad73e8b0$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Olson - SunPS" To: ; ; Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 1:07 PM Subject: Re: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) > > What is your position? > > Currently? In front of my computer, sitting... > > (Sorry, had to...:) > (No, no you didn't...) From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Aug 16 11:19:21 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 16 Aug 2002 13:19:21 -0500 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mark A Mandel writes: > So do I, but that's not thinking in language. What about packing stuff > into a small space? What about comparing colors and what would look good > next to what else, or what's a good sequence of chords, or -- heck, > Steve, figuring out how to drum to a particular song? Do you figure THAT > verbally? I definitely don't figure color comparisons verbally. I only have the "guy" list of color names (I think it's a 16-color palette); and then overlaid on top of it the ability from years of photography and design play the ability to say "too much red in that" or "needs a little more green". I have no idea how I do that; I certainly don't see images of the colors in my head. For that matter, I seem to have a better color memory than most people -- I can pick things that work together from memory most of the time, I don't need to see them side by side. And again, it isn't based on mental images of the colors or objects. I hardly form mental images at all (maybe that's why I got into photography?). I'm one of the weird right-handed/left-eyed people. Not sure what that "means"; after all the brain sides map to visual field side (inverted as usual) rather than to eye. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Aug 16 11:21:04 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 16 Aug 2002 13:21:04 -0500 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquintance with their length In-Reply-To: <3D5D3E91@webmailbackup> References: <3D5D3E91@webmailbackup> Message-ID: Matt Jennings writes: > I think that most of the duel/fighting descriptions in PG and 500ya do a good > job of showing how both hands (poinard & sword) are generally used for attack > and defense in the Dragaerian style. That is, except for Bruce Le... excuse > me, Aerich. Hmmm; I suppose there's something to that. > Khaavren does seem to exhibit the mentality of an epee fencer (which if memory > serves is what skzb himself said he used to do) in that he won't necessarily > go for the kill, but contents himself with making little hits & scratches, > until his opponnent makes a mistake or gets frustrated. Saber, as I remember it. But that same style can be applied in saber, so.... > In the Vlad books, it is more difficult to see how he does what he does... but > then Vlad cheats. He'd be silly not to. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Aug 16 11:23:58 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 16 Aug 2002 13:23:58 -0500 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquintance with their length In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nytemuse writes: > On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Matt Jennings wrote: > > Don't forget that one of the most important factors in the different styles > > (Eastern vs Dragaerian) is the stance. > > > > > I think that most of the duel/fighting descriptions in PG and 500ya do a good > > job of showing how both hands (poinard & sword) are generally used for attack > > and defense in the Dragaerian style. That is, except for Bruce Le... excuse > > me, Aerich. > > *wince* OK, I've been good on not correcting grammar, but can we correct > spelling, Steve? > I believe the accepted spelling is "Dragaeran" (no i). > > I wouldn't send it to the list, but I think I saw another person > misspell... > > *crosses fingers hoping not to be flamed* It bugs me too, so I'm glad somebody said something. And I'm glad you did it as "I believe it's..." rather than the far-too-common "You're obviously an idiot not to know...". The second I'd really prefer we avoid! -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Aug 16 11:29:03 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 16 Aug 2002 13:29:03 -0500 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <200208161705.g7GH51o26957@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200208161705.g7GH51o26957@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: Chris Olson - SunPS writes: > > We say, "I'm involved in a relationship with Susan." What does > > "relationship" mean in that context? Do you know? Can you define it? > > In regards to this, would qualifying it be better? > > If one was to say "I have a purely sexual, open and honest > relationship with Susan", would that be a more accurate use > of the word? I'm actualy really curious about this one, as > the word is used constantly, and I've always had trouble with > it... "Relationship" is a case of deliberate vagueness, and as such is very useful. Most people neither need *nor want* to know "Susan and I screw like minks on every flat surface at every opportunity". I think this vague use of "relationship" is generally understood to mean "ongoing emotional/sexual entanglement". A one-night stand is not a relationship. Being married for 20 years is a relationship. Being engaged is a relationship even if you haven't gotten into sex yet. So "lover" isn't right (and is still Too Much Information in many contexts), "fiancee" is wrong these days, "significant other" means close to the same thing but is longer. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Aug 16 11:30:30 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 16 Aug 2002 13:30:30 -0500 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <20020816173116.DEA2426E2D@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20020816173116.DEA2426E2D@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: rone at ennui.org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) writes: > Steven Brust writes: > But I certainly agree with David that sloppy writing indicates sloppy > thinking. I am not certain I can prove, or even defend this belief. > > I think it might be symptomatic, but it can simply indicate inherent > sloppiness in the writer; that is, not sloppy thinking, but sloppy doing. And how many people who are "inherenly sloppy" actually think clearly? -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From singram at videotron.ca Fri Aug 16 11:33:49 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:33:49 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) References: <200208161705.g7GH51o26957@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <000c01c24553$773cca70$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Dyer-Bennet" To: Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 2:29 PM Subject: Re: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) > Chris Olson - SunPS writes: > > > > We say, "I'm involved in a relationship with Susan." What does > > > "relationship" mean in that context? Do you know? Can you define it? > > > > In regards to this, would qualifying it be better? > > > > If one was to say "I have a purely sexual, open and honest > > relationship with Susan", would that be a more accurate use > > of the word? I'm actualy really curious about this one, as > > the word is used constantly, and I've always had trouble with > > it... > > "Relationship" is a case of deliberate vagueness, and as such is very > useful. Most people neither need *nor want* to know "Susan and I > screw like minks on every flat surface at every opportunity". I think > this vague use of "relationship" is generally understood to mean > "ongoing emotional/sexual entanglement". A one-night stand is not a > relationship. There's certainly a case to be made for deliberate vagueness, even when the result is misleading. From holden at salome.uchicago.edu Fri Aug 16 11:37:37 2002 From: holden at salome.uchicago.edu (Brad) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:37:37 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquintance with their length In-Reply-To: (message from David Dyer-Bennet on 16 Aug 2002 13:21:04 -0500) References: <3D5D3E91@webmailbackup> Message-ID: <200208161837.g7GIbbG15187@salome.uchicago.edu> From: David Dyer-Bennet >Matt Jennings writes: >> Khaavren does seem to exhibit the mentality of an epee fencer (which if memory >> serves is what skzb himself said he used to do) in that he won't necessarily >> go for the kill, but contents himself with making little hits & scratches, >> until his opponnent makes a mistake or gets frustrated. > >Saber, as I remember it. But that same style can be applied in saber, >so.... Saber fencing, without the modern rules of right of way, would quickly degenerate into something like Epee fencing. Both Khaavren and Vlad seem to execute an absurd number of stop cuts, which makes me think that Steve was a saber fencer with fast hands, well, faster than your average saber fencer. (What is funny, to me, is that Noish-Pa seems to fence more like a classical foil fencer to me, not that we see him fence much.) Modern saber fencing was developed in Hungary, which really ought to answer any questions about what style Vlad is using. brad From mneme at io.com Fri Aug 16 11:41:27 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:41:27 -0500 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquintance with their length In-Reply-To: <200208161837.g7GIbbG15187@salome.uchicago.edu> References: <3D5D3E91@webmailbackup> <200208161837.g7GIbbG15187@salome.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <15709.18263.815049.572945@hagbard.io.com> Brad writes: >fence much.) Modern saber fencing was developed in Hungary, which >really ought to answer any questions about what style Vlad is using. Er...which is to say that the most popular style among modern saber fencers is Hungarian -- the actual type of combat was mostly developed in Italy [and the Italian style is still somewhat closer to the dueling sabre rather than designed exclusively to win tournaments with practice weapons]. Which doesn't, of course, answer the question of what weapon Vlad is using, in modern rather than his own parlance. :) -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From nytemuse at auros.org Fri Aug 16 11:51:01 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:51:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <000c01c24553$773cca70$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Scott Ingram wrote: > > "Relationship" is a case of deliberate vagueness, and as such is very > > useful. Most people neither need *nor want* to know "Susan and I > > screw like minks on every flat surface at every opportunity". I think > > this vague use of "relationship" is generally understood to mean > > "ongoing emotional/sexual entanglement". A one-night stand is not a > > relationship. > > There's certainly a case to be made for deliberate vagueness, even when the > result is misleading. Especially in the case of polyamorous people. If you are poly and in a relationship or two, and flirting with someone who you are not quite sure is into polyamory, you don't want to use "boy/girlfriend" because they may assume you're taken. At least, you don't want to say it before you get a chance to explain. I've been known to say "roommate" when discussing stories involving my primary (which is true, as we do live together) and then once I'm fairly confident they're cool with it, I'll change it out for boyfriend or primary. ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From singram at videotron.ca Fri Aug 16 11:55:10 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:55:10 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) References: Message-ID: <005e01c24556$72cc4990$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nytemuse" To: "Dragaera Mailing List" Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 2:51 PM Subject: Re: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) > On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Scott Ingram wrote: > > > "Relationship" is a case of deliberate vagueness, and as such is very > > > useful. Most people neither need *nor want* to know "Susan and I > > > screw like minks on every flat surface at every opportunity". I think > > > this vague use of "relationship" is generally understood to mean > > > "ongoing emotional/sexual entanglement". A one-night stand is not a > > > relationship. > > > > There's certainly a case to be made for deliberate vagueness, even when the > > result is misleading. > > Especially in the case of polyamorous people. If you are poly and in a > relationship or two, and flirting with someone who you are not quite sure > is into polyamory, you don't want to use "boy/girlfriend" because they may Heh, shouldn't that be 'boi/girlfriend"? > assume you're taken. At least, you don't want to say it before you get a > chance to explain. I've been known to say "roommate" when discussing > stories involving my primary (which is true, as we do live together) and > then once I'm fairly confident they're cool with it, I'll change it out > for boyfriend or primary. > > ****** > NyteMuse I could be mistaken (HAH!) but people in monogamous relationships have been known to do that as well... at least until they've figured out how interested they are in the new prospect. -Scott From davids at kithrup.com Fri Aug 16 11:56:37 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:56:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 16 Aug 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >Chris Olson - SunPS writes: > >> > We say, "I'm involved in a relationship with Susan." What does >> > "relationship" mean in that context? Do you know? Can you define it? >> >> In regards to this, would qualifying it be better? >> >> If one was to say "I have a purely sexual, open and honest >> relationship with Susan", would that be a more accurate use >> of the word? I'm actualy really curious about this one, as >> the word is used constantly, and I've always had trouble with >> it... > >"Relationship" is a case of deliberate vagueness, and as such is very >useful. Exactly. I find it interesting that Steve is so much in favor of flat, unambiguous statements when so much of his writing is about characters who often are quite deliberately ambiguous, or deliberately vague, or who use carefully worded statements to give a completely wrong impression of the facts (like Aerich's accusation to Shaltre). Sometimes one wishes to be Discreet. From seanp at ea.com Fri Aug 16 12:00:53 2002 From: seanp at ea.com (Penney, Sean) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:00:53 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A1D@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Yeah, but Steve's writing is never vague. It is just that precise language, the usage in the vernacular of the common man, that keeps me coming back for more. Paarfi may be long-winded, but I feel Steve laboured long over each sentence to ensure it communicated exactly what he wanted. That's good, tight writing. Damn - I've swung over to the other side! -----Original Message----- From: David Silberstein [mailto:davids at kithrup.com] Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 11:57 AM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) On 16 Aug 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >Chris Olson - SunPS writes: > >> > We say, "I'm involved in a relationship with Susan." What does >> > "relationship" mean in that context? Do you know? Can you define it? >> >> In regards to this, would qualifying it be better? >> >> If one was to say "I have a purely sexual, open and honest >> relationship with Susan", would that be a more accurate use >> of the word? I'm actualy really curious about this one, as >> the word is used constantly, and I've always had trouble with >> it... > >"Relationship" is a case of deliberate vagueness, and as such is very >useful. Exactly. I find it interesting that Steve is so much in favor of flat, unambiguous statements when so much of his writing is about characters who often are quite deliberately ambiguous, or deliberately vague, or who use carefully worded statements to give a completely wrong impression of the facts (like Aerich's accusation to Shaltre). Sometimes one wishes to be Discreet. From seanp at ea.com Fri Aug 16 12:09:16 2002 From: seanp at ea.com (Penney, Sean) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:09:16 -0700 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquintance with their length Message-ID: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A1E@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Brad writes: >fence much.) Modern saber fencing was developed in Hungary, which >really ought to answer any questions about what style Vlad is using. >Er...which is to say that the most popular style among modern saber >fencers is Hungarian -- the actual type of combat was mostly developed >in Italy [and the Italian style is still somewhat closer to the >dueling sabre rather than designed exclusively to win tournaments with >practice weapons]. >Which doesn't, of course, answer the question of what weapon Vlad is >using, in modern rather than his own parlance. :) It seems to me that when Vlad claims to use Eastern style fencing, wielding a rapier, as opposed to the Dragaerean "hack hack slash" type, he's trying to say that eastern fencing is more evolved and refined then dragaerean sword-play. Dragaereans use sword and dagger, but then so does Vlad - the main difference is the stance and footwork. When he identifies his blade as a rapier, I think it is just that (or maybe a smallsword - the difference between a rapier and a smallsword is really one of length, and that only a half dozen inches)- a blade lighter then a longsword that is excellent for both thrusts and cuts. Khaavern is shown in a classic epee stance (high ward I think), but that doesn't assume he is an epee fighter. The Italians (cappo ferro maybe?) also "discovered" the lunge before "modern" fencing, the sport, evolved (and kept it a secret). I see elements of both the sport and dueling art in Steve's descriptions. Vlad uses lunges and tip cuts, but no ballista (sp?). This is logical because Vlad's ancestors had thousands of years to perfect their art and "discover", or develop, the best of both the sport and the art. Rapier fighting uses all the moves of epee, foil and sabre, because those sports evolved from the art. Vlad seems to use them all as well. From nytemuse at auros.org Fri Aug 16 12:10:05 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:10:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <005e01c24556$72cc4990$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Scott Ingram wrote: > > Especially in the case of polyamorous people. If you are poly and in a > > relationship or two, and flirting with someone who you are not quite sure > > is into polyamory, you don't want to use "boy/girlfriend" because they may > > Heh, shouldn't that be 'boi/girlfriend"? Not always. I've known some weird combinations... Like one of my old girlfriends was poly and took up with a new primary who said she couldn't see bois (or boys) anymore, but she could continue to see girls, although he preferred it if he were around. Now, setting those kinds of restrictions in a supposedly poly relationship demotes him to "boy" > I could be mistaken (HAH!) but people in monogamous relationships have been > known to do that as well... at least until they've figured out how > interested they are in the new prospect. *ROFL* True dat... I can't say I find the prospect of monogamy all that promising. Well, ENFORCED monogamy. I'm poly (obviously) but don't currently really have other partners. We agreed to leave the prospect open of having other lovers and/or relationships, but if we never do, oh well. ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From holden at salome.uchicago.edu Fri Aug 16 12:31:51 2002 From: holden at salome.uchicago.edu (Brad) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:31:51 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquintance with their length In-Reply-To: <15709.18263.815049.572945@hagbard.io.com> (message from Joshua Kronengold on Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:41:27 -0500) References: <3D5D3E91@webmailbackup> <200208161837.g7GIbbG15187@salome.uchicago.edu> <15709.18263.815049.572945@hagbard.io.com> Message-ID: <200208161931.g7GJVpW15292@salome.uchicago.edu> From: Joshua Kronengold >Brad writes: >>fence much.) Modern saber fencing was developed in Hungary, which >>really ought to answer any questions about what style Vlad is using. > >Er...which is to say that the most popular style among modern saber >fencers is Hungarian -- the actual type of combat was mostly developed >in Italy [and the Italian style is still somewhat closer to the >dueling sabre rather than designed exclusively to win tournaments with >practice weapons]. Well, what I said in that sentences was a joke. Sorry, I guess I should stuck a smiley in there. From mneme at io.com Fri Aug 16 12:39:04 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:39:04 -0500 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquintance with their length In-Reply-To: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A1E@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> References: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A1E@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Message-ID: <15709.21720.773180.629771@hagbard.io.com> Penney, Sean writes: >Joshua Kroenngold writes: >>Which doesn't, of course, answer the question of what weapon Vlad is >>using, in modern rather than his own parlance. :) >It seems to me that when Vlad claims to use Eastern style fencing, wielding >a rapier, as opposed to the Dragaerean "hack hack slash" type, he's trying >to say that eastern fencing is more evolved and refined then dragaerean >sword-play. Which doesn't make much sense, unless Dragaerans, as a whole, are dumb, which they don't seem to be. What they are is very strong, and tall, and have different ideas of fashion than Vlad does...which would lead to a different set of weapons being preferred (and, of course, the fact that Vlad is more comfortable dealing with Drageran fencers than they are dealing with Eastern fencers is a significant advantage, as is Loish). >Dragaereans use sword and dagger, but then so does Vlad - the >main difference is the stance and footwork. Well...and blade. >When he identifies his blade as a rapier, I think it is just that (or >maybe a smallsword - the difference between a rapier and a smallsword >is really one of length, and that only a half dozen inches)- a blade >lighter then a longsword that is excellent for both thrusts and cuts. A one-handed, civilian blade suited to both thrusts and cuts, yes. (longswords are 1 1/2 handed, really). And FWIW, the difference is closer to a foot -- an "average" rapier is about 42 inches (varying with height; I wouldn't be surprised if an average Drageran rapier was 50 inches or more); an average smallsword is in the low 30's (my salle usually cuts down epee blades for the purpose). >Khaavern is shown in a classic epee stance (high ward I think), Mixing terms? Wards is a rapier term; I don't remmeber what stance Khaavern took, though from what you said it could be a high seven or two or a prima ward. (mixing terminology of my own...but 7 is palm up, point down, on the inside (right if you're left handed, left if your'e right handed); 2 is palm down, point down, outside (the opposite of inside), prima is palm down, point down, inside.) >but that doesn't assume he is an epee fighter. Quite unlikely, in fact, since epee [modern term, of course; epee is just "sword" in French] is a 19th century dueling sword, which was never worn, only used for dueling or competition. >The Italians (cappo ferro maybe?) also "discovered" the lunge before >"modern" fencing, the sport, evolved (and kept it a secret). Not very -- it was in manuals throughout europe bu the end of the 15th or 16th centuries. The Italians did perfect the lunge-based stance and linear form (the lunge was pre Cappo Ferro, who was 17th century; he did invent the linear approach to fencing, though), though there are certainly advantages to some of the other approaches (frex, Destreza, a form of Spanish fencing, avoids actions as committed as the lunge, and instead relies on redirection and taking advantage of an opponent's actions, among other things). >I see elements of both the sport and dueling art in Steve's descriptions. I do see elements of the Steve's experience with the sport in the descriptions, which is why I try to make things make sense. :) >Vlad uses lunges and tip cuts, but no ballista (sp?). Balestra, (plural balestrae?); mostly irrelevant, since Vlad doesn't describe footwork much...and isn't a fool enough to jump onto the point of his Dragaeran opponents, but will generally make them come to him and hit what he can get (which actually makes his preference for hands quite reasonable -- if he doesn't want to walk through his opponent's sweet spot, he's going to have to take the targets presented). >Rapier fighting uses all the moves of epee, foil and sabre, because those >sports evolved from the art. Vlad seems to use them all as well. This is simply not true -- a rapier is a very different weapon from a foil or sabre (or epee, for that matter), and techniques that work with those weapons simply -will not- work with a full-size rapier. This is like saying that a carriage can do everything that a car can, since a car evolved from a carriage. They're simply very different things, even if the goal is similar. A smallsword is actually somewhat closer, simply from being shorter and closer to the handling characteristics of a foil (the modern version of which was invented as a practice waapon for the smallsword) and even a sabre (but with a different grip); it's still nothing like an epee, though -- an epee is a later weapon, evolved with the assumption of matched weapons (dueling only, remember) and without the need or expectation that you'd be carrying the thing around with you. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From mneme at io.com Fri Aug 16 12:39:59 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:39:59 -0500 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquintance with their length In-Reply-To: <200208161931.g7GJVpW15292@salome.uchicago.edu> References: <3D5D3E91@webmailbackup> <200208161837.g7GIbbG15187@salome.uchicago.edu> <15709.18263.815049.572945@hagbard.io.com> <200208161931.g7GJVpW15292@salome.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <15709.21775.373037.394951@hagbard.io.com> Brad writes: >From: Joshua Kronengold >>Brad writes: >>>fence much.) Modern saber fencing was developed in Hungary, which >>>really ought to answer any questions about what style Vlad is using. >>Er...which is to say that the most popular style among modern saber >>fencers is Hungarian -- the actual type of combat was mostly developed >Well, what I said in that sentences was a joke. Sorry, I guess I >should stuck a smiley in there. Probably; I did kinda get the joke, but was kinda in fencing pedant mode -- I guess all the language pedant conversation, fun as it is, got me in the mood. :) -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Aug 16 12:43:59 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 16 Aug 2002 14:43:59 -0500 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David Silberstein writes: > On 16 Aug 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > >Chris Olson - SunPS writes: > > > >> > We say, "I'm involved in a relationship with Susan." What does > >> > "relationship" mean in that context? Do you know? Can you define it? > >> > >> In regards to this, would qualifying it be better? > >> > >> If one was to say "I have a purely sexual, open and honest > >> relationship with Susan", would that be a more accurate use > >> of the word? I'm actualy really curious about this one, as > >> the word is used constantly, and I've always had trouble with > >> it... > > > >"Relationship" is a case of deliberate vagueness, and as such is very > >useful. > > Exactly. > > I find it interesting that Steve is so much in favor of flat, > unambiguous statements when so much of his writing is about characters > who often are quite deliberately ambiguous, or deliberately vague, or > who use carefully worded statements to give a completely wrong > impression of the facts (like Aerich's accusation to Shaltre). > > Sometimes one wishes to be Discreet. I think you're misreading him. He wants the scalpel in the toolbox, but *also* the butterknife. Because they are *both* useful in various situations. The choice of which to use is a practical or artistic decision. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Aug 16 12:52:24 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <200208161952.g7GJqBo24866@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > I could be mistaken (HAH!) but people in monogamous relationships have been > known to do that as well... at least until they've figured out how > interested they are in the new prospect. No, no. That's called "serial monogamy"... :) Chris From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Aug 16 12:53:53 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:53:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <200208161953.g7GJreo25069@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > I find it interesting that Steve is so much in favor of flat, > unambiguous statements when so much of his writing is about characters > who often are quite deliberately ambiguous, or deliberately vague, or > who use carefully worded statements to give a completely wrong > impression of the facts (like Aerich's accusation to Shaltre). However, where his characters might be vague, his writing style and word-choice is not... At least as far as I can recall from my numerous readings... :) Chris From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Aug 16 12:54:10 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:54:10 -0400 Subject: November (was Sethra Lavode...) Message-ID: <501D084B.4EBB53D9.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:46:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, FelixEisen at aol.com writes: > All good things come in November -- my birthday, And my birthday... > my SO's birthday, the gold edition of 'Fellowship of > the Ring', Is that the director's cut? If so, I'll have to add it to my list. > _Paths_of_the_Dead_, Thanksgiving ... Pratchett's _Night Watch_, Jo Walton's _Prize in the Game_, Duane's _Stealing the Elf-King's Roses_, and Jordan's _Crossroads of Twilight_. --KG From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Aug 16 13:04:00 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 16 Aug 2002 15:04:00 -0500 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <200208161952.g7GJqBo24866@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200208161952.g7GJqBo24866@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: Chris Olson - SunPS writes: > > I could be mistaken (HAH!) but people in monogamous relationships have been > > known to do that as well... at least until they've figured out how > > interested they are in the new prospect. > > No, no. That's called "serial monogamy"... :) I thought that was when you alwayse ate the same thing for breakfast? -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From seanp at ea.com Fri Aug 16 13:05:44 2002 From: seanp at ea.com (Penney, Sean) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:05:44 -0700 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquintance with their length Message-ID: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A1F@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Sorry for any vagueness - I am an SCA rapier fighter with only vicarious Olympic experience. We tend to mix terms since our teachers are often modern fencers who have joined and of course excelled. When we discuss wards we do not refer to the modern sport - only how they can be used in our recreationist sport. I have and use two types of blades - a 32 inch Schlager blade (guess that's a smallsword) and a 43 inch Deltin (rapier - but we call them all rapiers regardless of length), one with a bell guard and the other spanish. We fight sword and main gauche (or baton, or cloak, or buckler or open hand). They lend themselves to different styles and stances. We take the best of modern fencing (I hope), mix it with cavalier stylings and generally have a blast. Because of this past-time I can easily envision Vlad or Khaavren stamping and beating back and forth when fighting - it seems very similar to what we do at the Academy. But because many of our Dons are modern fencers, we generally adapt modern moves to our sport. We whip our blades like sabre fighters; many of us use classic French or Italian hand positions for effective epee parries, while others prefer sabre parries; some use a reversed stance and parry mostly with dagger, while others take the forward stance and parry with the sword more often. Some use overhand grips, (usually with the Deltins), while others use underhand (generally with the Schlagers). This mixing of styles and periods seems very similar to what Steve describes as swordplay, especially in the Khaavren novels - and I guess that was my point. A one-handed, civilian blade suited to both thrusts and cuts, yes. (longswords are 1 1/2 handed, really). And FWIW, the difference is closer to a foot -- an "average" rapier is about 42 inches (varying with height; I wouldn't be surprised if an average Drageran rapier was 50 inches or more); an average smallsword is in the low 30's (my salle usually cuts down epee blades for the purpose). >Khaavern is shown in a classic epee stance (high ward I think), Mixing terms? Wards is a rapier term; I don't remmeber what stance Khaavern took, though from what you said it could be a high seven or two or a prima ward. (mixing terminology of my own...but 7 is palm up, point down, on the inside (right if you're left handed, left if your'e right handed); 2 is palm down, point down, outside (the opposite of inside), prima is palm down, point down, inside.) >but that doesn't assume he is an epee fighter. Quite unlikely, in fact, since epee [modern term, of course; epee is just "sword" in French] is a 19th century dueling sword, which was never worn, only used for dueling or competition. >The Italians (cappo ferro maybe?) also "discovered" the lunge before >"modern" fencing, the sport, evolved (and kept it a secret). Not very -- it was in manuals throughout europe bu the end of the 15th or 16th centuries. The Italians did perfect the lunge-based stance and linear form (the lunge was pre Cappo Ferro, who was 17th century; he did invent the linear approach to fencing, though), though there are certainly advantages to some of the other approaches (frex, Destreza, a form of Spanish fencing, avoids actions as committed as the lunge, and instead relies on redirection and taking advantage of an opponent's actions, among other things). >I see elements of both the sport and dueling art in Steve's descriptions. I do see elements of the Steve's experience with the sport in the descriptions, which is why I try to make things make sense. :) >Vlad uses lunges and tip cuts, but no ballista (sp?). Balestra, (plural balestrae?); mostly irrelevant, since Vlad doesn't describe footwork much...and isn't a fool enough to jump onto the point of his Dragaeran opponents, but will generally make them come to him and hit what he can get (which actually makes his preference for hands quite reasonable -- if he doesn't want to walk through his opponent's sweet spot, he's going to have to take the targets presented). >Rapier fighting uses all the moves of epee, foil and sabre, because those >sports evolved from the art. Vlad seems to use them all as well. This is simply not true -- a rapier is a very different weapon from a foil or sabre (or epee, for that matter), and techniques that work with those weapons simply -will not- work with a full-size rapier. This is like saying that a carriage can do everything that a car can, since a car evolved from a carriage. They're simply very different things, even if the goal is similar. A smallsword is actually somewhat closer, simply from being shorter and closer to the handling characteristics of a foil (the modern version of which was invented as a practice waapon for the smallsword) and even a sabre (but with a different grip); it's still nothing like an epee, though -- an epee is a later weapon, evolved with the assumption of matched weapons (dueling only, remember) and without the need or expectation that you'd be carrying the thing around with you. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From seanp at ea.com Fri Aug 16 13:09:15 2002 From: seanp at ea.com (Penney, Sean) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:09:15 -0700 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquintance with their length Message-ID: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A20@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Sorry I keep forgetting to place my replies at the bottom of the threads. My bad. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Aug 16 13:10:38 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:10:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More word usage... Message-ID: <200208162010.g7GKAOo27835@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> First, I apologise for not keeping up with everything. The list got busy REAL fast!! However, here's something else to ponder: The use of "I" or "Me", in sentences like: She gave John and I presents. or Between you and I... >From my understanding, both are incorrect (or were at one point...:) Any thoughts? Personaly, I feel this discussion is more interesting, informative, and fun than anything else. We can debate words in which meaning has been changed or garbled, like "impact" which in "legaliese" and the "business world" has become a substitute for words like "bearing", "influence", and "effect." I think this is what, at least in some ways, Steve is getting at. That instead of using words like influence or bearing, we use impact. It's use not only devalues the word "impact" itself, but it lessens our vocabulary as a whole, because we no longer use the "proper" word to describe what we mean. When someone says "What's the impact of this process", they don't mean what they're saying, or at least the meaning is muddled. OK, I'm done...:) Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From attjen at gwu.edu Fri Aug 16 13:22:10 2002 From: attjen at gwu.edu (Matt Jennings) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:22:10 -0400 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquintance with their length Message-ID: <3D5E9CEC@webmailbackup> >===== Original Message From Joshua Kronengold ===== >Matt Jennings writes: >>Vlad uses the 'modern' side stance, which exposes little of his body. This >>means he can parry/attack with one hand while using his other to do >>his little tricks. (throw knives, shurikens, etc...) > >>Khaavren et al use a full-face stance, meaning they usually need a poinard to >>defend that side of their body. > >It actually goes the other way -- smallsword fencers tend to use a somewhat >more extreme stance, since the smallsword is fast enough that fencing >tends to get a bit linear (and in 18th century duels, off-hand weapons I am really only referring to how the styles are described in the books (I don't have nearly the knowledge you have). But I always thought the general idea of 'modern' fencing (stance and all) is also based on having a good length to the sword in combination with the side stance, gives a excellent range to the attack. (Which is why Vlad does fine against the Dragerans larger swords.) >Hmm. I need to re-read 500 years after. I just read it again recently. It so rocks. MattJ "Forward in all directions." - 3m3 From attjen at gwu.edu Fri Aug 16 13:26:00 2002 From: attjen at gwu.edu (Matt Jennings) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:26:00 -0400 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquintance with their length Message-ID: <3D5EA2B3@webmailbackup> >> *wince* OK, I've been good on not correcting grammar, but can we correct >> spelling, Steve? >> I believe the accepted spelling is "Dragaeran" (no i). >> >> I wouldn't send it to the list, but I think I saw another person >> misspell... >> >> *crosses fingers hoping not to be flamed* > >It bugs me too, so I'm glad somebody said something. And I'm glad you >did it as "I believe it's..." rather than the far-too-common "You're >obviously an idiot not to know...". The second I'd really prefer we >avoid! I actually only typed it that way because I had seen it from another poster. When I saw the earlier correction, I realized my mistake. MattJ "Forward in all directions." - 3m3 From books at bofh.com Fri Aug 16 13:15:51 2002 From: books at bofh.com (books at bofh.com) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:15:51 -0700 (MST) Subject: More word usage... In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:10:38 -0700 (PDT)" <200208162010.g7GKAOo27835@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <01KLD846WSWY0013MG@chud.net> >However, here's something else to ponder: >The use of "I" or "Me", in sentences like: >She gave John and I presents. >or >Between you and I... >From my understanding, both are incorrect (or were >at one point...:) >Any thoughts? I like this example because, for me, it demonstrates a flaw in my English. For whatever reason, I always use " and I", even though I believe both of your examples are flawed. BUT, it sounds right to me. So, if someone corrects me, I say , "You're right, it's a flaw in my use of the language, but for whatever reason, I haven't been able to fix it." I find the same thing with some plural words. I will never use "houses", but instead use "homes" for a plural of house. Wrong? Probably. Then there are others which I deem wrong, and dictionaries allow multiple right answers. Fish, comes to mind. One fish. Two fish. Not, two fishes, although when I have looked it up the dictionary allows it. Fundamentally the reason I believe these flaws developled was because I learned English from reading, far before I learned about grammar, and as a result I lack a solid foundation. At least I learned it reading Tolkein. :) -Jot From mneme at io.com Fri Aug 16 13:29:53 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:29:53 -0500 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquintance with their length In-Reply-To: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A1F@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> References: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A1F@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Message-ID: <15709.24769.130117.575335@hagbard.io.com> Penney, Sean writes: >Sorry for any vagueness - I am an SCA rapier fighter with only >vicarious Olympic experience. I don't have any, though I have played SCA. (and have studied historical and classsical fencing from a master at both). >I have and use two types of blades - a 32 inch Schlager blade (guess >that's a smallsword) Close enough, in dimensions. >and a 43 inch Deltin (rapier - but we call them all rapiers >regardless of length), Sure...but the Del Tins tend to match (to some extent; they don't taper enough) the historical weapons much closer than the little short things [not to meanion the single-wide epees and foils used by [SCA] Easterners [1]]. In any case, SCA fencing is a lot of fun...but it's not really very historical, and doesn't have the reality of "kill or be killed" in the way that techniques developed when weapons were used for real, and only the masters whose techniques worked survived to teach them did. Thus, invented techniques are rather suspect and I have significant doubt that fencing, in the East[2] or Dragaera, is closer to any invented artificial style than it is to any of the ones that actually existed in history. [1] People from the SCA "Kingdom of the East", which covers the US north of Maryland and east of Pennsylvania, not from Fenario or whatever. [2] The one in the books. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From mneme at io.com Fri Aug 16 13:31:45 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:31:45 -0500 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquintance with their length In-Reply-To: <3D5EA2B3@webmailbackup> References: <3D5EA2B3@webmailbackup> Message-ID: <15709.24881.948365.751529@hagbard.io.com> Matt Jennings writes: >I actually only typed it that way because I had seen it from another poster. >When I saw the earlier correction, I realized my mistake. Probably my fault -- I'm pretty attrocious, and remember thinking as I was typing "is that how it's spelled, not sure, guess it will work". :) Mea culpa. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From nytemuse at auros.org Fri Aug 16 13:34:53 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquintance with their length In-Reply-To: <15709.24881.948365.751529@hagbard.io.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Joshua Kronengold wrote: > Matt Jennings writes: > >I actually only typed it that way because I had seen it from another poster. > >When I saw the earlier correction, I realized my mistake. > > Probably my fault -- I'm pretty attrocious, and remember thinking as I > was typing "is that how it's spelled, not sure, guess it will > work". :) Well, I recall who it was, but no need to point fingers. If it had happened once, I would have assumed typo, but twice in the same eMail...especially on a list "dedicated" to certain authors/works. I've given misinformation before and just wished someone had corrected me before I made an arse of myself, so I try and politely correct spelling (a hell of a lot more than I do grammar), just in case. ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Aug 16 13:41:33 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 16 Aug 2002 15:41:33 -0500 Subject: More word usage... In-Reply-To: <200208162010.g7GKAOo27835@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200208162010.g7GKAOo27835@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: Chris Olson - SunPS writes: > First, I apologise for not keeping up with > everything. The list got busy REAL fast!! > > However, here's something else to ponder: > > The use of "I" or "Me", in sentences like: > > She gave John and I presents. > > or > > Between you and I... > > > >From my understanding, both are incorrect (or were > at one point...:) > > Any thoughts? "She gave I presents". Oh, must be wrong, must need "me". -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From singram at videotron.ca Fri Aug 16 13:44:27 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:44:27 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) References: <200208161952.g7GJqBo24866@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <005601c24565$b6a4c3e0$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Dyer-Bennet" To: Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 4:04 PM Subject: Re: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) > Chris Olson - SunPS writes: > > > > I could be mistaken (HAH!) but people in monogamous relationships have been > > > known to do that as well... at least until they've figured out how > > > interested they are in the new prospect. > > > > No, no. That's called "serial monogamy"... :) > > I thought that was when you alwayse ate the same thing for breakfast? > -- Why yes, that is exactly what it means. From attjen at gwu.edu Fri Aug 16 13:50:28 2002 From: attjen at gwu.edu (Matt Jennings) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:50:28 -0400 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquintance with their length Message-ID: <3D5EC478@webmailbackup> >===== Original Message From Nytemuse ===== >On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Joshua Kronengold wrote: >> Matt Jennings writes: >> >I actually only typed it that way because I had seen it from another poster. >> >When I saw the earlier correction, I realized my mistake. >> >> Probably my fault -- I'm pretty attrocious, and remember thinking as I >> was typing "is that how it's spelled, not sure, guess it will >> work". :) > >Well, I recall who it was, but no need to point fingers. If it had >happened once, I would have assumed typo, but twice in the same >eMail...especially on a list "dedicated" to certain authors/works. I've >given misinformation before and just wished someone had corrected me >before I made an arse of myself, so I try and politely correct spelling (a >hell of a lot more than I do grammar), just in case. Heck, usually I don't even type a word if I am not sure how to spell it. I'll look it up if I can't think of an alternative. (See earlier post where I used Tiassa instead of Khaavren.) I wish I could do the same for my horrible grammar. MattJ "Forward in all directions." - 3m3 From tsarren at alyra.org Fri Aug 16 13:46:19 2002 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Kat) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:46:19 -0500 Subject: More word usage... In-Reply-To: <01KLD846WSWY0013MG@chud.net> References: <200208162010.g7GKAOo27835@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <01KLD846WSWY0013MG@chud.net> Message-ID: <20020816204619.GO13289@galadriel.alyra.org> On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 01:15:51PM -0700, books at bofh.com wrote: > > Fish, comes to mind. One fish. Two fish. Not, two fishes, > although when I have looked it up the dictionary allows it. Trivia: "fishes" is correct when referring to a group of said animal which consists of more than one species. "Fish" is for a group of the same species. Kat, who has far too many tanks of fishes for her own good. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Aug 16 13:48:30 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More word usage... Message-ID: <200208162048.g7GKmHo04238@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > I like this example because, for me, it demonstrates a flaw > in my English. > > For whatever reason, I always use " and I", even though > I believe both of your examples are flawed. I believe this comes about from parents telling us not to use "You and me", but instead use "you and I", which is correct, but I think it carried over in our heads so that "___ and me", we felt, was never correct. Or maybe that was just my parents... > Fish, comes to mind. One fish. Two fish. Not, two fishes, > although when I have looked it up the dictionary allows it. English seems notorious for this. Singular and plural forms of nouns are invariably different. Maybe they're all reading >from different rule books? :) I'm reminded of: Goose - Geese, Moose - Moose, > Fundamentally the reason I believe these flaws developled was > because I learned English from reading, far before I learned > about grammar, and as a result I lack a solid foundation. Heh. Well, there is always that... :) Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From seanp at ea.com Fri Aug 16 13:50:17 2002 From: seanp at ea.com (Penney, Sean) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:50:17 -0700 Subject: OT: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length Message-ID: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A21@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Joshua writes: >I don't have any, though I have played SCA. (and have studied >historical and classsical fencing from a master at both). >>I have and use two types of blades - a 32 inch Schlager blade (guess >>that's a smallsword) >Close enough, in dimensions. The Schlagers we use are oval, with no taper whatsoever. They tend to measure 32 to 36 inches. >>and a 43 inch Deltin (rapier - but we call them all rapiers >>regardless of length), >Sure...but the Del Tins tend to match (to some extent; they don't >taper enough) the historical weapons much closer than the little short >things [not to meanion the single-wide epees and foils used by [SCA] >Easterners [1]]. Kingdom of the West here (An Tir - Vancouver BC, Oregon, N. California)) - we also use these new double-wides (not epees - they are about 1 1/2 times the width of a Deltin at the forte and have much less taper - I dunno why they call them double-wides) and are starting to use some other experimentals in an effort to get closer to the historical blades. They tend to be a bit stiff though. We do not allow any modern fencing weapons. I'm not so much an aficionado of historical accuracy - more so the application of the blade, if you know what I mean... I use whatever works for me, and I do well in the tournaments. Of course, I move like the wind = ) >In any case, SCA fencing is a lot of fun...but it's not really very >historical, and doesn't have the reality of "kill or be killed" in the >way that techniques developed when weapons were used for real, and Definitely true - the number of double kills I see is point in fact. >only the masters whose techniques worked survived to teach them did. >Thus, invented techniques are rather suspect and I have significant >doubt that fencing, in the East[2] or Dragaera, is closer to any invented >artificial style than it is to any of the ones that actually existed >in history. Well I guess in this we are in agreement. Sean Penney Associate Producer Phone: 604-456-3001 Fax: 604-456-5018 Electronics Arts Canada Main: 604-456-3600 Email: seanp at ea.com From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Aug 16 13:52:24 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <200208162052.g7GKqBo05087@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > > > No, no. That's called "serial monogamy"... :) > > > > I thought that was when you alwayse ate the same thing for breakfast? > > -- > Why yes, that is exactly what it means. Wouldn't that be "Cereal Monogamy"? For which I prefer adding sliced bananas... :) Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From scs at di.org Fri Aug 16 13:41:47 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:41:47 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) Message-ID: <20020816204147.GA8974@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Mia McDavid writes: > Tempel Grandin is a well-known high-functioning autist with a strong > skill for thinking visually--she says it is like a film running in her > head. Temple Grandin is written up in one chapter of Oliver Sacks' excellent book `An Anthropologist on Mars' (Grandins own description of how she deals with humans). Her autobiography, `Thinking In Pictures', lacks some of Sacks' insight but is fascinating in its own right. > . . . I am *incapable* of seeing a printed word without hearing it in > my head . . . Interesting. I'm the opposite. I've gone years being perfectly comfortable reading and writing a given word only to be pulled up short the first time I actually attempt to say it. -- "Deconstruction is [when] a work is interpreted as a statement about itself, using a literary version of the same cheap trick that Kurt Godel used to try to frighten mathematicians back in the thirties." -- Chip Morningstar in From scs at di.org Fri Aug 16 13:42:49 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:42:49 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) Message-ID: <20020816204248.GA9112@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Chris Olson writes: > OK, now what if all the dictionary-writers got together and > decided to change "fig" to mean "prune"? Would that make it > right? Only in France. -- "Deconstruction is [when] a work is interpreted as a statement about itself, using a literary version of the same cheap trick that Kurt Godel used to try to frighten mathematicians back in the thirties." -- Chip Morningstar in From mneme at io.com Fri Aug 16 13:53:05 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:53:05 -0500 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquintance with their length In-Reply-To: <3D5E9CEC@webmailbackup> References: <3D5E9CEC@webmailbackup> Message-ID: <15709.26161.886764.315844@hagbard.io.com> Matt Jennings writes: >>===== Original Message From Joshua Kronengold ===== >>Matt Jennings writes: >>>Vlad uses the 'modern' side stance, which exposes little of his body. This >>>means he can parry/attack with one hand while using his other to do >>>his little tricks. (throw knives, shurikens, etc...) >> >>>Khaavren et al use a full-face stance, meaning they usually need a poinard >to >>>defend that side of their body. >> >>It actually goes the other way -- smallsword fencers tend to use a somewhat >>more extreme stance, since the smallsword is fast enough that fencing >>tends to get a bit linear (and in 18th century duels, off-hand weapons > >I am really only referring to how the styles are described in the books (I >don't have nearly the knowledge you have). Understood. >But I always thought the general idea of 'modern' fencing (stance and >all) is also based on having a good length to the sword in >combination with the side stance, gives a excellent range to the >attack. Kinda there are a bunch of things combining here: The ability to make a vigorous attack can be very powerful, and a fully sideways stance allows a lunge of maximal power and distance (and decreases the visible target). However, it makes it harder to get the off-hand into play without contorting the body, and the off-hand can also be very powerful, and makes diagonal and circular movement somewhat more awkward. With a light enough blade, it becomes less necessary to step away from an attacking blow (to gain time) as -well- as defend against the blow the hand is faster enough than the foot that you can parry and riposte in the same time (or faster) that you can take a single step. So the main reasons for circular and diagonal movement (to act as a secondary defense against a blow) lower in prominence, rendering things more linear (and therefore also giving more of an advantage to a linear stance, since you're less likely to face an attack from other angles). Control of distance, since to an extent, things are 1-dimensional (along a line), rather than 2-dimensional, becomes much more important [not that it wasn't important before; it's just even more important] -- the balestra, the lunge, the patanando (quick step+lunge) and so on are all intended to control distance. Another (minor) thing to remember is that fencing blows aren't really "thrown" so much as "placed" -- a blow (thrust or cut) can be certainly be made with vigor...but a sequence like "thrust, partial parry, deception of the parry, counter into the attack, deception of the counter, replacing the point" as what is effectively a single action (with minor adjustments throughout) isn't all -that- unusual; the fact that you can, with one action, lunge into your opponent's distance doesn't mean they can't side-step and hit you in the middle of your lunge (in fact, that's the ideal Spanish (well, La Veda Destreza) response to an over-committed lunge). I'm not sure if I answered your question above; feel free to restate if not. :) >(Which is why Vlad does fine against the Dragerans >larger swords.) Vlad's control of distance and timing is clearly masterful...but I think at least as much of it is that he's using an unfamiliar style...and that he tends to go for easy targets rather than trying a deep lunge (most of the time), plus the fact that with a lighter and smaller weapon, he can often deceive his opponent's blades (one reason the smallsword, in expert hands, is often more deadly than a rapier). Frex, he could convince them to move one way and quickly disengage (and attack along their blades with opposition, though I don't remember this type of maneuver being described). >>Hmm. I need to re-read 500 years after. >I just read it again recently. It so rocks. Oh, yeah. I actually need to re-read both the historical, preparatory to the new release. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From singram at videotron.ca Fri Aug 16 13:53:44 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:53:44 -0400 Subject: More word usage... References: <200208162048.g7GKmHo04238@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <008801c24567$0285b3e0$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Olson - SunPS" To: ; Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 4:48 PM Subject: Re: More word usage... > > I like this example because, for me, it demonstrates a flaw > > in my English. > > > > For whatever reason, I always use " and I", even though > > I believe both of your examples are flawed. > > I believe this comes about from parents telling us > not to use "You and me", but instead use "you and I", > which is correct, but I think it carried over in our heads so that > "___ and me", we felt, was never correct. > > Or maybe that was just my parents... Well, as I understand it, "I" is used as a subject and "me" as an object. So, "I will give the ball to me." is correct. > She gave John and I presents. > > or > > Between you and I... The first is wrong because "She" is the subject and "John and I" are the objects of the sentence. The second is wrong because there is an implied subject (It or She/He, ie: It is between you and ...). So, you would pair the object "you" with another object: "me" -Scott From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Aug 16 14:02:09 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More word usage... Message-ID: <200208162101.g7GL1uo06795@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > > She gave John and I presents. > > > > or > > > > Between you and I... > > The first is wrong because "She" is the subject and "John and I" are the > objects of the sentence. > > The second is wrong because there is an implied subject (It or She/He, ie: > It is between you and ...). > So, you would pair the object "you" with another object: "me" This is my understanding as well. I just found it interesting, and something many people tend to do without thinking about it. Cheers! Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From mneme at io.com Fri Aug 16 14:06:25 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:06:25 -0500 Subject: OT: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length In-Reply-To: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A21@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> References: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A21@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Message-ID: <15709.26961.681379.163835@hagbard.io.com> Penney, Sean writes: >>>I have and use two types of blades - a 32 inch Schlager blade (guess >>>that's a smallsword) >>Close enough, in dimensions. >The Schlagers we use are oval, with no taper whatsoever. They tend to >measure 32 to 36 inches. Well, I do know this, though I haven't seen all that many <35 inch schlagers. The small ones, aside from taper (and weight, but that's actually less of an issue than length for handling characteristics) aren't that far >from a smallsword. >>Sure...but the Del Tins tend to match (to some extent; they don't >>taper enough) the historical weapons much closer than the little short >>things [not to meanion the single-wide epees and foils used by [SCA] >>Easterners [1]]. >Kingdom of the West here Cool -- say high to Jan Kees for me (from Fiacha). >we also use these new double-wides (not epees - they are about 1 1/2 times >the width of a Deltin at the forte and have much less taper - I dunno why >they call them double-wides) Because Del Tin makes them, and they are wider than their other weapons? >>In any case, SCA fencing is a lot of fun...but it's not really very >>historical, and doesn't have the reality of "kill or be killed" in the >>way that techniques developed when weapons were used for real, and >Definitely true - the number of double kills I see is point in fact. Quite. A lot of people use, and even do well with, things that would never have worked were the blades sharp. >>only the masters whose techniques worked survived to teach them did. >>Thus, invented techniques are rather suspect and I have significant >>doubt that fencing, in the East[2] or Dragaera, is closer to any invented >>artificial style than it is to any of the ones that actually existed >>in history. >Well I guess in this we are in agreement. Good -- even if my use of the double-negative (sorta) made it hard for me to tell if I got it right [simplified: I think historical fencing and manuals of same is and are a better model for Dragaeran/Eastern than either modern or SCA fencing]. :) -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From anthony at netdocuments.com Fri Aug 16 14:37:08 2002 From: anthony at netdocuments.com (Anthony Tedjamulia) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:37:08 -0600 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquintance with their length Message-ID: Here's an interesting link. It concernes fencing styles, footwork and the like. http://www.thehaca.com/essays/Regole.htm From rone at ennui.org Fri Aug 16 14:59:08 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:59:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020816215908.88E4526E25@boredom.ennui.org> David Dyer-Bennet writes: rone at ennui.org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) writes: > Steven Brust writes: > But I certainly agree with David that sloppy writing indicates sloppy > thinking. I am not certain I can prove, or even defend this belief. > I think it might be symptomatic, but it can simply indicate inherent > sloppiness in the writer; that is, not sloppy thinking, but sloppy doing. And how many people who are "inherenly sloppy" actually think clearly? I could investigate this... but i don't feel like it... so i'll say "500". rone -- {Reagan's} presidency always reminded me of a remark made by a woman to Heywood Broun following Secretariat's victory in the Triple Crown. After the trauma of Vietnam and Watergate, she said, Secretariat had "restored her faith in humanity." I like to think Reagan was the Secretariat of the eighties. - Garry Trudeau From rone at ennui.org Fri Aug 16 15:03:18 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:03:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <200208152028.g7FKSMo23847@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <20020816220318.DE15226E25@boredom.ennui.org> Chris Olson - SunPS writes: OK, now what if all the dictionary-writers got together and decided to change "fig" to mean "prune"? Would that make it right? If it reflected usage, yes. See how the definition of "nice" mutated >from a negative one to a positive one, for example. rone -- {Reagan's} presidency always reminded me of a remark made by a woman to Heywood Broun following Secretariat's victory in the Triple Crown. After the trauma of Vietnam and Watergate, she said, Secretariat had "restored her faith in humanity." I like to think Reagan was the Secretariat of the eighties. - Garry Trudeau From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Aug 16 15:13:53 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) Message-ID: <200208162213.g7GMDdo18316@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Chris Olson - SunPS writes: > OK, now what if all the dictionary-writers got together and > decided to change "fig" to mean "prune"? Would that make it > right? > > If it reflected usage, yes. See how the definition of "nice" mutated > from a negative one to a positive one, for example. Ok, but what about the rest of humanity who still see fig as fig? Basicly, where does one draw the line? How many people need to be using a word differently for it to have a different meaning? As for "nice", I've heard it used (and, I'll admit, use it myself) as an exclamation of disbelief, irony, or sarcasm... "You say your boss just fired you? Nice..." And I'd be curious to know where others on this list draw their own lines as to new word usage, or do they just take everything as it comes and accept it? "Well, it's being used that way, so now it means that..." Still having fun, Chris "So farewell hope, and with hope, farewell fear, Farewell remorse! All good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my Good" - John Milton - 'Paradise Lost' From rone at ennui.org Fri Aug 16 15:27:15 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:27:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <200208162213.g7GMDdo18316@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <20020816222715.D723326E26@boredom.ennui.org> Chris Olson - SunPS writes: > Chris Olson - SunPS writes: > OK, now what if all the dictionary-writers got together and > decided to change "fig" to mean "prune"? Would that make it > right? > If it reflected usage, yes. See how the definition of "nice" mutated > from a negative one to a positive one, for example. Ok, but what about the rest of humanity who still see fig as fig? Obviously, they will be wrong, and as such, re-educated. Basicly, where does one draw the line? How many people need to be using a word differently for it to have a different meaning? It entirely depends on the context. Ask a UNIX sysadmin and a priest what a demon is and you'll get two entirely different, correct answers. As for "nice", I've heard it used (and, I'll admit, use it myself) as an exclamation of disbelief, irony, or sarcasm... "You say your boss just fired you? Nice..." Irony is a separate boat. The word itself doesn't change meaning; rather, the tone conveys your meaning. I meant that "nice" comes from the same Latin root as Spanish's "necio", which means 'ignorant' or 'stubborn'. And I'd be curious to know where others on this list draw their own lines as to new word usage, or do they just take everything as it comes and accept it? "Well, it's being used that way, so now it means that..." Humpty Dumpty once said, "When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less." I would call myself an extreme antihumptydumptyan. Thus, i scorn the ridiculous current usage of "impact" as a synonym for "affect", even though usage has rendered my protestations effectively moot. There will come a time when people wonder why a molar is "impacted". And at that time i will start a violence spree marked by the headline: "MAN IMPACTS PEOPLE IN FACE WITH DICTIONARY". rone -- {Reagan's} presidency always reminded me of a remark made by a woman to Heywood Broun following Secretariat's victory in the Triple Crown. After the trauma of Vietnam and Watergate, she said, Secretariat had "restored her faith in humanity." I like to think Reagan was the Secretariat of the eighties. - Garry Trudeau From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Aug 16 15:47:08 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:47:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) Message-ID: <200208162246.g7GMkro22845@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > There will come a time > when people wonder why a molar is "impacted". And at that time i will > start a violence spree marked by the headline: "MAN IMPACTS PEOPLE IN > FACE WITH DICTIONARY". Uh.... Can you make that "TWO MEN" (Unless others want to join in the Dictionary Carnage?;) No, really... I'm a pacifist!!! Chris "So farewell hope, and with hope, farewell fear, Farewell remorse! All good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my Good" - John Milton - 'Paradise Lost' From feaelin at kemenel.org Fri Aug 16 15:53:19 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 17:53:19 -0500 Subject: OT: November (was Sethra Lavode...) Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Gaertk at aol.com [mailto:Gaertk at aol.com] > Sent: Friday, 2002 August 16 14:54 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: November (was Sethra Lavode...) > Is that the director's cut? If so, I'll have to add it to my > list. Well..."Director's Cut" isn't quite the right term, but yes, that's the Extended/Special Edition. According to the previews and comments on the non-extended version, the extended version will have 30 minutes (bringing the total time to 208 minutes!) of extra footage, some of which was filmed specifically for the extended version. Lists for a painful $39.99 on DVD (4 discs). Details of each disc can be found here: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/dvd/B000067DNF/revi ews/qid=1029538178/sr=2-2/ref=sr_2_2/102-0978205-5989766 From dar at horusinc.com Fri Aug 16 15:58:04 2002 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 17:58:04 -0500 Subject: OT: November (was Sethra Lavode...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Is that the director's cut? If so, I'll have to add it to my > > list. > > Well..."Director's Cut" isn't quite the right term, but yes, that's the > Extended/Special Edition. According to the previews and comments on the > non-extended version, the extended version will have 30 minutes > (bringing the total time to 208 minutes!) of extra footage, some of > which was filmed specifically for the extended version. Lists for a > painful $39.99 on DVD (4 discs). Details of each disc can be found > here: And Rated R... David From rone at ennui.org Fri Aug 16 16:02:44 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:02:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More word usage... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020816230244.7B4F026E25@boredom.ennui.org> David Dyer-Bennet writes: Chris Olson - SunPS writes: > She gave John and I presents. > Between you and I... > > From my understanding, both are incorrect (or were > at one point...:) "She gave I presents". Oh, must be wrong, must need "me". Likewise, "between us", not "between we", ergo, "between you and me", not "between you and i". rone -- {Reagan's} presidency always reminded me of a remark made by a woman to Heywood Broun following Secretariat's victory in the Triple Crown. After the trauma of Vietnam and Watergate, she said, Secretariat had "restored her faith in humanity." I like to think Reagan was the Secretariat of the eighties. - Garry Trudeau From singram at videotron.ca Fri Aug 16 16:30:06 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 19:30:06 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) References: <200208162246.g7GMkro22845@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <00c801c2457c$daaa99b0$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Olson - SunPS" To: ; Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 6:47 PM Subject: Re: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) > > There will come a time > > when people wonder why a molar is "impacted". And at that time i will > > start a violence spree marked by the headline: "MAN IMPACTS PEOPLE IN > > FACE WITH DICTIONARY". > > Uh.... Can you make that "TWO MEN" (Unless others > want to join in the Dictionary Carnage?;) > > No, really... I'm a pacifist!!! > > Chris Add me to the anit-humptydumptyan team! The following story illustrates why the evolution of language is all well and good, but by God... PEOPLE, GET A FREAKING CLUE!!!! ...or at least a dictionary http://www.adversity.net/special/niggardly.htm From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Aug 16 17:14:02 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 17:14:02 -0700 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815233202.029cb3e0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816170335.029de9b0@localhost> At 12:38 PM 8/16/2002 -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: > >#My position can be expressed as follows: Some changes to the language make >#it more flexible, powerful, and precise. Other changes make the language >#more rigid, weak, and vague. I support the former by employing the new >#usages as they occur, and oppose the latter by not using them, and by >#objecting to them when they happen to come up as a subjects of conversation. ># >#What is your position? > >With regard to the innovation under discussion, the use of "hopefully" >as a sentence adverb, my position is that Because you didn't answer the general, I'm going to assume that, more-or-less, we agree--some changes are good, and some are not. This means we can get on to arguing about specific cases. > 1. It is useful. It provides a convenient way of expressing something >that is difficult to express otherwise -- see my previous post quoting >the Usage Note from AHD4 and commenting on it. Okay, excellent. This permits us to go from the general to the particular and back to the general, which is how knowledge develops according to Hegal, and we can't argue with Hegal because he's dead. It seems to me that there is a phenomenon in language where a phrase appears to say more than it does. That is, certain phrases cast an illusion of meaning beyond the meaning. In another post, I gave the classic example of, "Susan and I are having a relationship." This means less than, (usually and in my opinion) both speaker and listener think it means. Trying to define what they mean by this will show you what I mean. Q: Do you agree, even if not with the example of "relationship" with the phenomenon? My problem with "hopefully" is exactly here. The illusion of saying more than is actually said irritates me. To me, this outweighs the advantages you mention. > 2. It does not interfere with previous usage. I agree with you on this. >I am going to have to drop out of this discussion soon because it's >absorbing me too much. Phooey. I will be *very* sorry to lose you from this discussion. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Aug 16 17:21:01 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 17:21:01 -0700 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815234105.029ceb80@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816171651.029d7b30@localhost> At 12:41 PM 8/16/2002 -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: > >#At 07:56 PM 8/15/2002 -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote: >#>On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: >#> >#>#I have often closed my eyes and called up a pleasing picture. That is not >#>#thinking, that is exercising my memory. If I make conclusions about that >#>#picture, such as, "I'd like to go back to that beach," or, "I wonder what >#>#she's up to today?" I am thinking. But sometimes--often--those pictures >#>#merely call up emotion, they bring with them feelings. That is *feeling* >#>#it is not *thinking*. >#> >#>Now suppose you're planning a day at that beach as part of a road trip. >#>You know the roads in the area pretty well, but you'll be driving there >#>from a different place than you usually do. You start figuring out how >#>to get from point A to point B. What goes on in your mind? ># >#A sudden desire to call up someone who can read maps. If I *could* read >#maps, or had any geographical skill, I would use those techniques to make >#decisions. In other words, I would be manipulating symbols in my mind. I >#call this activity "thinking." > >So do I, but that's not thinking in language. I believe it is. In an earlier post, I defined language as a system of symbols, and used the term, "verbal language" for word-based languages such as Hungarian, English, and the unimportant tongues of man. It may be that my definition of "language" is too broad to be useful. But it seems to me that it is valid to make the point that thought occurs by manipulating symbols in our brains. I believe that the learning of a skill involves (in part) learning the language associated with that skill. That was my point. From rone at ennui.org Fri Aug 16 17:25:27 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 17:25:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020817002527.6C26226E26@boredom.ennui.org> Mike Scott writes: Vagueness is one of the uses of language, which is full of constructions that allow one to be precise about the bits you *want* to be precise about, and imprecise where it doesn't matter. It's also quite useful to be able to express the concept using three syllables rather than the twelve required for "it is to be hoped by all right-thinking people". You can be precisely vague; that is, vague by intent, and precise by intent. But being vague out of laziness does not aid communication. Since English lacks a direct translation for Spanish's "ojal?", one could instead just use "god willing" (or "luck willing", if you're allergic to god), in lieu of "hopefully". Same number of syllables, even. One idiom i'm trying to excise from my diction is "sort of/kind of" as a poor substitute for "somewhat". "An eel is a kind of fish" is OK, "a dolphin is kind of like a fish" is not. rone -- {Reagan's} presidency always reminded me of a remark made by a woman to Heywood Broun following Secretariat's victory in the Triple Crown. After the trauma of Vietnam and Watergate, she said, Secretariat had "restored her faith in humanity." I like to think Reagan was the Secretariat of the eighties. - Garry Trudeau From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Aug 16 17:29:48 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 17:29:48 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <20020816151546.86484.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> References: <15709.2924.651473.186063@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816172735.00a86cd0@localhost> At 08:15 AM 8/16/2002 -0700, Caliann the Elf wrote: >Emotion has no place in an intellectual debate. Remember that.:):):) > Hmmm...I'm afraid that, while agreeing with your main point, I'll have to dispute this one. I think emotion is often important in intellectual debates--at least, to me that frequently involve passion. Sometimes this leads to irritation, and sometimes that goes too far. Being called back >from that is a good thing. Your over-all point is valid; I'm just being pedantic. From rone at ennui.org Fri Aug 16 17:36:39 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 17:36:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020817003639.20A1526E26@boredom.ennui.org> Mark A Mandel writes: Let us ban the word "obviously". Obviously, we should. Summary: The sentence-adverbial use of "hopefully" is not confusing, does not supplant the emotional sense, and provides a short, convenient way of saying something useful. Yes, but it is inelegant, given that there are other ways of expressing the same content that are not cumbersome. Let's face it: we're lazy speakers. rone -- {Reagan's} presidency always reminded me of a remark made by a woman to Heywood Broun following Secretariat's victory in the Triple Crown. After the trauma of Vietnam and Watergate, she said, Secretariat had "restored her faith in humanity." I like to think Reagan was the Secretariat of the eighties. - Garry Trudeau From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Aug 16 17:37:44 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 17:37:44 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816072227.00acb770@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816173519.0299e580@localhost> At 10:21 AM 8/16/2002 -0700, Nytemuse wrote: >On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: > > At 10:02 AM 8/16/2002 -0400, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > > >Who gets to decide what is a good change and what is a bad change?? > > Excellent question! > > My own answer is: anyone who cares enough to argue about it. > >I think this kind of answers itself, as "good" and "bad" are rather >subjective and/or personal terms. By which I mean; what _I_ think is good >may be bad to Mr. X down the street. Well, sure. But sometimes we can find objective criteria that determine whether we react to something as "good" or "bad." This permits us to discuss those criteria, and, I hope, learn something from the discussion. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Aug 16 17:41:46 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 17:41:46 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816174004.00ac2120@localhost> At 11:56 AM 8/16/2002 -0700, David Silberstein wrote: > > I find it interesting that Steve is so much in favor of flat, >unambiguous statements when so much of his writing is about characters >who often are quite deliberately ambiguous, or deliberately vague, or >who use carefully worded statements to give a completely wrong >impression of the facts (like Aerich's accusation to Shaltre). But David, that is exactly the point. I cannot make an elegant point of how vague a character is being unless he has the ability to precise and doesn't take it. From rone at ennui.org Fri Aug 16 17:52:25 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 17:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: _Orca_ cover Message-ID: <20020817005225.1F3DF26E29@boredom.ennui.org> (back on topic...) I've _just_ noticed the "orca" constellation on the cover. _Orca_ is, so far, my favorite Taltos book. rone (and to drag language back into it, p. 281: "Who's life was I careless with?") -- {Reagan's} presidency always reminded me of a remark made by a woman to Heywood Broun following Secretariat's victory in the Triple Crown. After the trauma of Vietnam and Watergate, she said, Secretariat had "restored her faith in humanity." I like to think Reagan was the Secretariat of the eighties. - Garry Trudeau From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Fri Aug 16 17:58:59 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 19:58:59 -0500 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815234105.029ceb80@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020816171651.029d7b30@localhost> Message-ID: <3D5D9FD3.48DC337@attbi.com> SKZB wrote: >I believe that the learning of a skill >involves (in part) learning the language associated with that skill. That >was my point. This ties in nicely with a thought that occurred to me once while I was studying biology. A *huge* (but not, admittedly, total) portion of a doctor's knowledge and skill lies in terminology. If she can name every part of the human body, she therefore knows (at least in terms of existence and location) about every part of the body. If she can name the hormones, enzymes, glands, etc., this too is essential medical knowledge. Vocabulary is the bulk of the skill. The rest is observation--learning to recognize the vocabulary "in the flesh". Even here, the memory skills necessary to hook the pieces of knowledge together--yellow sclera means bile buildup; check liver functions--will greatly assist the doctor in making good use of clinical experience. Mia From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Aug 16 17:55:38 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 17:55:38 -0700 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length In-Reply-To: <15709.4508.291271.881260@hagbard.io.com> References: <20020816043909.GC10352@infodancer.org> <16f.122a3942.2a8cc4ca@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815105845.00abb530@localhost> <20020816043909.GC10352@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816174632.00ac26a0@localhost> At 09:52 AM 8/16/2002 -0500, Joshua Kronengold wrote: > >[um. I'm a historical and classical fencer with a fair amount of >training. I'll try to explain and/or footnote any terminlogy I use, >but I may miss some. ] > >The initial problem is that, as far as modern terminology is >concerned. Vlad doesn't fight with a rapier [1]. He's constantly talking >about parry-ripostes, stop cuts, and a bunch of things you can't, or >shouldn't do with a rapier That's odd. I've done all of those repeatedly with a rapier in stage-combat classes and informal duels. The real answer to his question is that he is paying too much attention to the cover, fer chrissakes. It is a *wonderful* cover, but attempting to translate that kind of detail from text to cover is just asking to be confused. As for why Vlad uses techniques with a rapier that, in fact, were not developed during the historical period on Earth when the rapier was in use, I will only say that there is a reason, and that this is one of the things I had figured out before I wrote the first word of the first story about Vlad. Clue: In college, I was a sabre-man as well as doing a lot of stage combat. My definition of "rapier" includes the sort of weapon in general use in France and England from about 1600-1650, a weapon originally developed to kill people in plate armour, but gradually modified as armour fell out of use because too many armored men were being killed by assholes with rapiers. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Aug 16 17:59:02 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 17:59:02 -0700 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length In-Reply-To: <200208161837.g7GIbbG15187@salome.uchicago.edu> References: <3D5D3E91@webmailbackup> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816175823.00ac08b0@localhost> At 01:37 PM 8/16/2002 -0500, Brad wrote: >Saber fencing, without the modern rules of right of way, would quickly >degenerate into something like Epee fencing. Both Khaavren and Vlad >seem to execute an absurd number of stop cuts, which makes me think >that Steve was a saber fencer with fast hands, well, faster than your >average saber fencer. (What is funny, to me, is that Noish-Pa seems >to fence more like a classical foil fencer to me, not that we see him >fence much.) Modern saber fencing was developed in Hungary, which >really ought to answer any questions about what style Vlad is using. *sigh* You people are too smart for me. Maybe I'll switch to writing about spaceships. From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Aug 16 19:37:41 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 21:37:41 -0500 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816174632.00ac26a0@localhost> References: <20020816043909.GC10352@infodancer.org> <16f.122a3942.2a8cc4ca@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815105845.00abb530@localhost> <20020816043909.GC10352@infodancer.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020816174632.00ac26a0@localhost> Message-ID: <20020817023741.GJ30233@infodancer.org> On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 05:55:38PM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: > The real answer to his question is that he is paying too much attention to > the cover, fer chrissakes. It is a *wonderful* cover, but attempting to > translate that kind of detail from text to cover is just asking to be > confused. Well, I'm trying to reconcile the text with the cover, and wondering where in a number of possibilities the error lay. If the answer is "The cover artist is smoking crack", so be it. > As for why Vlad uses techniques with a rapier that, in fact, were not > developed during the historical period on Earth when the rapier was in use, > I will only say that there is a reason, and that this is one of the things > I had figured out before I wrote the first word of the first story about > Vlad. Interestink. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From scs at di.org Fri Aug 16 20:59:31 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 23:59:31 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <20020817035931.GA16523@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Steve Brust writes: > At 04:06 AM 8/16/2002 -0700, Caliann the Elf wrote: > > >>Most of the changes in language that evolve are due to people trying to > >>be MORE considerate of one another. Including such little things as > >>"Hopefully". > > I beg to disagree. I think very few changes have to do with > consideration. I can't see `hopefully' in that class, but there are a significant set of words (terms, more accurately) which began with or acquired connotations that people wished to avoid, so new words were developed which then acquired those same connotations, ad nauseum. I specificly recall being informed in 1963 that we were to call kids with certian learning problems `retarded', not `stupid.' Now, of course, 'special' has slid down that slippery slope and there's probably some new term that people are trying to use to avoid a negative connotation for intelligence deficits. This might be just an English-ism, can't speak for other languages. But it goes back quite a ways -- supposedly `moron' and 'idiot' were coined at the turn of the century as clinical terms. The previous century turn, you moron. :-) -- "Deconstruction is [when] a work is interpreted as a statement about itself, using a literary version of the same cheap trick that Kurt Godel used to try to frighten mathematicians back in the thirties." -- Chip Morningstar in From scs at di.org Fri Aug 16 21:04:46 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 00:04:46 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <20020817040446.GA16658@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> There's a dynamic here that just ain't gonna fly. If we retain the subtle distinction between various words while simultaneously adding new words as they crop up and letting things evolve as they should, we wind up with a language so large and complex that no-one can master it. Hell, with English we probably reached that point centuries ago. We're getting like the Latin of Rome, which most Romans couldn't use correctly. That's probably what let the goddamn barbarians in and we wind up with beautiful Latin broken into worthless crap like French, Spanish and Italian. Do I need a smiley? -- "Deconstruction is [when] a work is interpreted as a statement about itself, using a literary version of the same cheap trick that Kurt Godel used to try to frighten mathematicians back in the thirties." -- Chip Morningstar in From sakura_dreamz at hotmail.com Fri Aug 16 21:25:07 2002 From: sakura_dreamz at hotmail.com (Sakura Dreamz) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:25:07 -0600 Subject: Dragaeran? Human? Message-ID: ( Ahhh.. I posted this to someone by accident AGAIN!! I hate my e-mail. Sorry to whoever accidentally got this message....:: sobs :: ) Ahh! Thankyou! That does clear things up... But who was the one who originally combined the genes (or DNA?) of the animals with the Dragaeran's?? ^^;; I must be annoying.. And why wasn't Teckla and Jhereg the same way? I can maybe understand Jhereg, but Teckla?? Yes, that would definitely make sense why there was no Pheonix people... Uwah! And sorry about the Typo back there... I suck at spelling, as you can probably already tell... - Sev - ----------------------- ----------------------- "You heard me... I said it loud and clear and you heard it and I'm not repeating it because you heard what I said because I said it for you to hear." ----------------------- ----------------------- From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Aug 16 21:21:34 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 23:21:34 -0500 Subject: Dragaeran? Human? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020817042134.GK30233@infodancer.org> On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 10:25:07PM -0600, Sakura Dreamz wrote: > ( Ahhh.. I posted this to someone by accident AGAIN!! I hate my e-mail. > Sorry to whoever accidentally got this message....:: sobs :: ) No worries. > Ahh! Thankyou! That does clear things up... But who was the one who > originally combined the genes (or DNA?) of the animals with the > Dragaeran's?? ^^;; I must be annoying.. And why wasn't Teckla and Jhereg > the same way? I can maybe understand Jhereg, but Teckla?? Jhereg were formed from the outcasts of all the other houses. Teckla I am uncertain of - that is, I am uncertain whether their genetic heritage was melded with that of their name animal, and if not, uncertain of the reasons. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From scs at di.org Fri Aug 16 21:18:13 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 00:18:13 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <20020817041813.GA16807@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> magical roney writes: > Since English lacks a direct translation for Spanish's "ojal?", one > could instead just use "god willing" (or "luck willing", if you're > allergic to god), in lieu of "hopefully". Same number of syllables, > even. If my Spanish teacher was correct in the '60, 'ojala' was a leftover >from the Moorish occupation and was a corruption of 'o, allah'. So `god willing' is a pretty good replacement. But it's also worth remembering that the Spanish tend to be Catholic, so when saying 'ojala,' they tend to ignore (or be ignorant of) the original meaning. That's not too dissimilar to a non-Christian being comfortable saying 'goodbye' (from 'God be with ye', I believe). Damn, this discussion makes me wish I had a good entymological dictionary. -- "Deconstruction is [when] a work is interpreted as a statement about itself, using a literary version of the same cheap trick that Kurt Godel used to try to frighten mathematicians back in the thirties." -- Chip Morningstar in From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Aug 16 21:22:39 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 23:22:39 -0500 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <20020817035931.GA16523@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20020817035931.GA16523@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <20020817042239.GL30233@infodancer.org> On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 11:59:31PM -0400, Steve Simmons wrote: > Now, of course, 'special' has slid down that slippery slope and there's > probably some new term that people are trying to use to avoid a negative > connotation for intelligence deficits. "challenged". -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From casey at trinityhartford.org Fri Aug 16 21:58:38 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 00:58:38 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816172735.00a86cd0@localhost> Message-ID: Steven wrote: > ... I'm just being pedantic. Pedants of the world, unite! Sorry, getting a wee bit punchy... Casey From casey at trinityhartford.org Fri Aug 16 21:59:13 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 00:59:13 -0400 Subject: FW: More word usage... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kat wrote: > Trivia: "fishes" is correct when referring to a group of said animal which > consists of more than one species. "Fish" is for a group of the same > species. Fishes is also the traditional usage when speaking of Jesus' feeding miracles AKA the miracle of the Loaves and the Fishes. From Lydy at demesne.com Fri Aug 16 22:03:15 2002 From: Lydy at demesne.com (Lydia Nickerson) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 00:03:15 -0500 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: References: <200208150456.g7F4uLvk053110@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: At 3:08 AM -0500 8/15/02, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >Frank Mayhar writes: > > >> In the area of neuropsychology, by the way, there has been a lot of study >> of the processing of speech in the brain. (I wanted to say "language," but >> it's a lot harder to demonstrate language in general than it is to >>demonstrate >> speech.) It appears that our language ability is, indeed, hardwired, and I >> am convinced that further study will only confirm that understanding. > >There seems to be hardware support for it, is the way I'd put it. >"Hardwired" suggests a rather stronger pre-determination of how it >will come out than *I*, at least, think the evidence supports. My understanding is that any human growing up in contact with at least one other human will develop language. Bruce Schneier mentioned a case where a set of twins grew up together. I believe they were institutionalized, although perhaps it was just that their family completely isolated them. They were considered to be profoundly retarded, incapable of any learning. However, researchers discovered that the two girls had developed a language between themselves. It was a peculiar and limited language in which peanut butter was a vital element. Consider, also, hearing children born to deaf parents. Those babies will learn ASL, if that is what is spoken in the home. Babies of deaf parents babble in ASL exactly the same way babies of parents who speak babble: ba ba ba da ba ba. The child of deaf parents will make those signs with their hands. Later, as they acquire vocabulary and grammar, they make exactly the same mistakes that their hearing compatriots make, including the pronoun confusion. At a certain age, children tend to get confused by pronouns and say you instead of I. In ASL, those words are pointing at oneself, or the person one is talking to. The fact that a child makes this mistake when speaking, even though they would not make it if you asked them to point to themselves, or their mother, is one of the key indications that ASL is a natural language, and not just a code. Completely abandoned children, the ones that grow up in closets and are never spoken to, are the only people we know that don't acquire language. After a certain age, they won't be able to, either. Learning language is part of the development of a child's brain, and there's a limited window in which this can happen. Lack of language in turn limits other brain development. I think that the evidence does support the claim of hardwired. Admittedly, we can't point to the exact pieces of the genetic makeup and the precise functions within the brain that cause the acquisition of language, but observation of language acquisition in many different cultures supports that claim. -- Lydy Nickerson lydy at demesne.com lydy at lydy.com Dulciculi Aliquorum From casey at trinityhartford.org Fri Aug 16 22:06:12 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 01:06:12 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <20020817040446.GA16658@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: > There's a dynamic here that just ain't gonna fly. If we retain the > subtle distinction between various words while simultaneously adding > new words as they crop up and letting things evolve as they should, > we wind up with a language so large and complex that no-one can master it. > > Hell, with English we probably reached that point centuries ago. We're What's the count on Shakespeare's vocabulary vs the average well educated speaker of American English? From casey at trinityhartford.org Fri Aug 16 22:08:46 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 01:08:46 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <20020817041813.GA16807@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: Steve Simmons wrote: > > Damn, this discussion makes me wish I had a good entymological > dictionary. Yeah, but then the words start crawling around on the page and you really wish you could blame it on dropping too much acid in your college years. :) Casey From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Aug 16 22:14:14 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:14:14 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: References: <200208150456.g7F4uLvk053110@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816221251.00a98a80@localhost> At 12:03 AM 8/17/2002 -0500, Lydia Nickerson wrote: >Completely abandoned children, the ones that grow up in closets and are >never spoken to, are the only people we know that don't acquire language. There are cases of children growing up in complete isolation who develop "ideologues" or whatever they are called--languages only they can understand. I have a theory that Mark will be able to identify the sources for this arcane knowledge that I can't remember how I acquired. From Lydy at demesne.com Fri Aug 16 22:17:23 2002 From: Lydy at demesne.com (Lydia Nickerson) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 00:17:23 -0500 Subject: language (was: Sethra Lavode...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 1:37 PM -0400 8/15/02, Casey Rousseau wrote: > > >David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >> I'm a counterexample. To me "non-verbal thought" is an oxymoron. >> Writing badly is to me a clear sign of thinking unclearly. And so >> forth. (Professional software developer since I was 15 years old, in >> 1969). >> >> I also do reasonably well taking things apart and putting them >> together, for that matter. I think it's why I can often give *useful >> instructions* about this stuff to other people. > >I'd say this is an indication that you have both strong verbal thinking >ability and strong spatial/visual thinking ability along with a facility >that has been described to me as dependent on the physical structure of the >corpus callosum to translate the latter using the former in order to >communicate it to another person. Heh. His wife once described him as bilingual; he speaks both English and computer programming. -- Lydy Nickerson lydy at demesne.com lydy at lydy.com Dulciculi Aliquorum From casey at trinityhartford.org Fri Aug 16 22:37:56 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 01:37:56 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <15709.10975.443706.233911@hagbard.io.com> Message-ID: > more convenient -because- it means that (for me) when I hit "r" it > goes only to the user, and when I hit "f" it goes (only) to the > list [and anyone CCed). ooo. Thanks, I just recalled one of the reasons I like using my wife's iBook as a mail client machine, the Mac version of OE allows one to override the default reply-to: behavior on a list by list basis. From rone at ennui.org Sat Aug 17 00:34:11 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 00:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <20020817041813.GA16807@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <20020817073411.4D37D26E25@boredom.ennui.org> Steve Simmons writes: Damn, this discussion makes me wish I had a good entymological dictionary. Is that the one that tells you what bugs mean? rone -- {Reagan's} presidency always reminded me of a remark made by a woman to Heywood Broun following Secretariat's victory in the Triple Crown. After the trauma of Vietnam and Watergate, she said, Secretariat had "restored her faith in humanity." I like to think Reagan was the Secretariat of the eighties. - Garry Trudeau From calianng_graves at yahoo.com Sat Aug 17 02:11:45 2002 From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 02:11:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Evolving language In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816221251.00a98a80@localhost> Message-ID: <20020817091145.55182.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> I have to agree that the English Language is large, ponderous and unweildy. It could stand to be whittled down into something more efficient. When was the last time anyone used the word "druthers" as a synonym for "choice"? Actually, when was the last time anyone used the word "druthers" when it was not precluded by the words "Give my..." or "If I had my..."? Then again, new words do come into the language. Being a computer geek for a living, I do not believe I could live and without many of the new words and acronyms. Besides, I am rather fond of the word "squick". I never realized how much that word was necessary to my lifestyle until I learned it. Now it is a regular part of my vocabulary. Useful word! You won't find it in the dictionary.....yet. There is a point to this, which is that I DO feel that English can use a lot of help. It could be streamlined into what is actually USED. I'd like a dictionary that didn't have the name of a piece of harness used for draft horses in the 1200's. A "modern use in vocabulary" dictionary. As for Shakespear, I adore Shakespear, but the language has changed in many ways since then. I am sure thee knowest of what I speak, forsooth. Perhaps these changes are good, perhaps not. I do know I have not read anything in Shakespear that describes what I do for a living. Peace and Hugs, Caliann *Owned and Operated by the Grand Poohbah Cheese of the Universe* "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs From mtiller at ntlworld.com Sat Aug 17 02:56:31 2002 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 10:56:31 +0100 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401c245d4$5d13fed0$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> > What's the count on Shakespeare's vocabulary vs the average well educated speaker of American English? Shakespeare had a vocabulary of 20,000 words, most english speakers use between...I think it's 3,000 to 5,000. Mind you, Shapkespeare made up a large number of words. Mark Tiller "Argue for your limitations and you get to keep them" - Richard Bach, Illusions From spenn at shaw.ca Sat Aug 17 04:57:25 2002 From: spenn at shaw.ca (Sean) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 04:57:25 -0700 Subject: Evolving language References: <20020817091145.55182.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001301c245e5$40b58360$883e5418@dontbenosy> Calian said: > > There is a point to this, which is that I DO feel that English can use a lot of help. It could be streamlined into what is actually USED. I'd like a dictionary that didn't have the name of a piece of harness used for draft horses in the 1200's. A "modern use in vocabulary" dictionary. > Save us! Let a coder streamline the the language? Yowch! That would be a terrifying trend. First one, then another would opitimise the original streamlining, and this would go on until we were left with nothing but true and false. Then some joker would come along and ascribe a symbol to each of the two remaining words and THEN what would we have?!! > As for Shakespear, I adore Shakespear, but the language has changed in many ways since then. I am sure thee knowest of what I speak, forsooth. > I believe it would properly be used as: *thou* knowest (since we're being pedants these days) ; ) > Perhaps these changes are good, perhaps not. I do know I have not read anything in Shakespear that describes what I do for a living. In a general way, a good coder (you let's say) is like a good playwright (oh, say Shakespeare). You both create intricate, smoothly running constructs using a complex language in a precise yet innovative manner. From mam at theworld.com Sat Aug 17 06:24:35 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 09:24:35 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 16 Aug 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: #I definitely don't figure color comparisons verbally. I only have the #"guy" list of color names (I think it's a 16-color palette); and then #overlaid on top of it the ability from years of photography and design #play the ability to say "too much red in that" or "needs a little more #green". # #I have no idea how I do that; I certainly don't see images of the #colors in my head. So there's one example of non-verbal thought, right? -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Sat Aug 17 06:35:54 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 09:35:54 -0400 Subject: More word usage... In-Reply-To: <01KLD846WSWY0013MG@chud.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 somebody wrote: #Fundamentally the reason I believe these flaws developled was #because I learned English from reading, far before I learned #about grammar, and as a result I lack a solid foundation. # #At least I learned it reading Tolkein. :) Tolkn. And the second syllable rhymes with "seen", not "vine". Back to topic... -- Mark M. From mam at theworld.com Sat Aug 17 06:41:11 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 09:41:11 -0400 Subject: More word usage... In-Reply-To: <008801c24567$0285b3e0$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Scott Ingram wrote: #So, "I will give the ball to me." is correct. Except that it violates the reflexive rule: it should be "I will give the ball to myself". Take out that confusing issue by changing the subject and we get a clear example: "They will give the ball to me." -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Sat Aug 17 06:57:55 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 09:57:55 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816170335.029de9b0@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: #Because you didn't answer the general, I'm going to assume that, #more-or-less, we agree--some changes are good, and some are not. This #means we can get on to arguing about specific cases. Yes, we agree in general. #It seems to me that there is a phenomenon in language where a phrase #appears to say more than it does. That is, certain phrases cast an #illusion of meaning beyond the meaning. In another post, I gave the #classic example of, "Susan and I are having a relationship." This means #less than, (usually and in my opinion) both speaker and listener think it #means. Trying to define what they mean by this will show you what I mean. # #Q: Do you agree, even if not with the example of "relationship" with the #phenomenon? Sure, but. Much of what we say and write depends on implications beyond the literal meaning. #My problem with "hopefully" is exactly here. The illusion of saying more #than is actually said irritates me. To me, this outweighs the advantages #you mention. What is "actually said"? This comes down to asking for a strict definition of the word in this usage. I rather suspect that for a lot of people who use the word, *if* one could elicit such a definition from them [not easy, and not always possible at all], it would be different >from the one you're using and basing your irritation on. After all, they've picked up this usage from other people's usage, in context, the way most language change develops -- not by consulting a dictionary. Suppose that, to most people, "Hopefully, S" (where S is a sentence) means "I'm optimistic that S. I predict S, I'm not sure of it, but I more expect S than not-S, and I prefer S." How would you feel about the usage then? #>I am going to have to drop out of this discussion soon because it's #>absorbing me too much. Phooey. # #I will be *very* sorry to lose you from this discussion. Me, too. I'm trying to limit myself to this one. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Sat Aug 17 07:13:21 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 10:13:21 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) (fwd) Message-ID: Rats! Forgot the "reply to all" again! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 10:12:47 -0400 From: Mark A Mandel To: Steven Brust Subject: Re: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: #At 12:03 AM 8/17/2002 -0500, Lydia Nickerson wrote: # #>Completely abandoned children, the ones that grow up in closets and are #>never spoken to, are the only people we know that don't acquire language. # #There are cases of children growing up in complete isolation who develop #"ideologues" or whatever they are called--languages only they can #understand. I have a theory that Mark will be able to identify the sources #for this arcane knowledge that I can't remember how I acquired. Idioglossia. -- Mark A. Mandel From singram at videotron.ca Sat Aug 17 07:38:51 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 10:38:51 -0400 Subject: More word usage... References: Message-ID: <002701c245fb$ce8696f0$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark A Mandel" To: "Scott Ingram" Cc: "Chris Olson - SunPS" ; ; Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 9:41 AM Subject: Re: More word usage... > On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Scott Ingram wrote: > > #So, "I will give the ball to me." is correct. > > Except that it violates the reflexive rule: it should be "I will give > the ball to myself". Take out that confusing issue by changing the > subject and we get a clear example: "They will give the ball to me." > Woops! My shortcomings are showing! Yeah, "myself" makes seems to be the proper word. Thanks! -Scott From mam at theworld.com Sat Aug 17 07:40:35 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 10:40:35 -0400 Subject: Hopefully - Found it! :) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Casey Rousseau wrote: #Chris Olson quoted an example from Line by Line: #> 'The candidates are hopefully awaiting the election results,' # #I would say that contrary to the statement from the text, this is exactly #the sort of usage that has been made vague by the additional meaning of #hopefully. Either meaning works in this sentence, especially when spoken. # #The candidates are (hopefully) awaiting the election results. (as opposed to #some other, less useful activity) #The candidates are hopefully awaiting the election results. (in anticipation #of their hoped-for results) Yes, this one is ambiguous. It could have been disambiguated (ugly, ugly word, but too useful for a linguist to throw away) with little change: 1. Hopefully, the candidates are awaiting the election results. (sentence adverb) 2. The candidates are awaiting the election results hopefully. (simple adverb) Yes, #1 *can* be read as a simple adverb, but this construction -- sentence-initial, separated by a pause (comma) -- is the most typical one for the sentence adverb and should be considered a signal of it. -- Mark A. Mandel From baralier at optusnet.com.au Sat Aug 17 08:38:05 2002 From: baralier at optusnet.com.au (Baralier) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 01:38:05 +1000 Subject: Evolving language References: <20020817091145.55182.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003201c24604$27c5e790$18a231d2@valadan> Caliann the Elf wrote... > I have to agree that the English Language is large, ponderous and unweildy. > It could stand to be whittled down into something more efficient. When was > the last time anyone used the word "druthers" as a synonym for "choice"? > Actually, when was the last time anyone used the word "druthers" when it was > not precluded by the words "Give my..." or "If I had my..."? > > Then again, new words do come into the language. Being a computer geek for > a living, I do not believe I could live and without many of the new words and > acronyms. Most "new words" are usually ones that have been taken form other languages or are old words with new meanings. Occasionally there are words that are compounds of existing words but the German language does that all the time anyway. > Besides, I am rather fond of the word "squick". I never realized how much > that word was necessary to my lifestyle until I learned it. Now it is a > regular part of my vocabulary. Useful word! You won't find it in the > dictionary.....yet. As long as you're only using the word and not practicing it : http://www.mich.com/~pnsnv/othershit/squick.html > There is a point to this, which is that I DO feel that English can use a lot > of help. It could be streamlined into what is actually USED. I'd like a > dictionary that didn't have the name of a piece of harness used for draft > horses in the 1200's. A "modern use in vocabulary" dictionary. The language IS streamlined. The vocabulary of your average newspaper is aimed at an 8-year-old. Published dictionaries will only use common to rare words. For archaic words and definitions you need an encyclopaedic dictionary or an expanded multiple volume edition. Your average Pocket Dictionary is not going to contain "aventaille" or "hastif". However if you check a dictionary for Middle English you'll probably find them. Language is not static. Sethra seems to have a remarkably modern grip on her language for someone who learned to speak 20,000 years ago! > As for Shakespear, I adore Shakespear, but the language has changed in many > ways since then. I am sure thee knowest of what I speak, forsooth. It's spelt Shakespeare > Perhaps these changes are good, perhaps not. I do know I have not read > anything in Shakespear that describes what I do for a living. True. But I doubt very few people would be able to *comprehend* Shakespeare's life from a modern point of view. Baralier -- If you steal from one person, it's plagiarism. If you steal from many, it's research http://members.optushome.com.au/velvetspyder Costumier & Reprobate From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Sat Aug 17 08:48:50 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 10:48:50 -0500 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length References: <20020816043909.GC10352@infodancer.org> <16f.122a3942.2a8cc4ca@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815105845.00abb530@localhost> <20020816043909.GC10352@infodancer.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020816174632.00ac26a0@localhost> Message-ID: <3D5E7062.76D3E00F@attbi.com> SKZB said: > As for why Vlad uses techniques with a rapier that, in fact, were not developed during the historical period on Earth when the rapier was in use, I will only say that there is a reason, and that this is one of the things I had figured out before I wrote the first word of the first story about Vlad. > See, Steve, I am *totally* cool with waiting for all 19 novels if necessary for the Cool Unrevealed Backstory, but if you drop dead, is there a letter somewhere to fill your fans in? We're all loving the gleaning of hints and the making of guesses, but we're really *hoping* to be able to piece it all together someday. Thanks! Mia From meersan at mn.astound.net Sat Aug 17 08:47:44 2002 From: meersan at mn.astound.net (Melissa Fitzgerald) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 10:47:44 -0500 Subject: Evolving language In-Reply-To: <001301c245e5$40b58360$883e5418@dontbenosy> References: <20020817091145.55182.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020817104744.007ae170@astound.net> At 04:57 AM 8/17/02 -0700, Sean wrote: >Save us! Let a coder streamline the the language? Yowch! That would be a >terrifying trend. First one, then another would opitimise the original >streamlining, and this would go on until we were left with nothing but true >and false. Then some joker would come along and ascribe a symbol to each of >the two remaining words and THEN what would we have?!! A programmer manipulates objectively-defined symbols to express a very particular sort of meaning. But programming languages are very, very strictly defined. Unlike natural language, programming languages very rarely possess symbols that have simultaneous meanings depending on the context. How does a compiler handle ambiguity? It doesn't. We define the rules so there is no ambiguity. When symbols do have multiple meanings, such as operator overloading, or maybe programmer-defined functions with identical names, we can determine for a fact which meaning takes precedence. Natural language is much fuzzier. I wonder whether the built-in strictness of programming languages is a cause, or merely a symptom, of the difficulty we have had in developing artificial intelligence. I'm not aware of any computer's ability to make sense of symbols with multiple, simultaneous and contradictory meanings. (Is this something that fuzzy logic addresses? I'm not familiar with that field, but I think it is mostly handles boolean values with partial truth/partial falsity. So, it might be a help in determining which particular sense of "red", of the many available, is meant in an English language sentence, but it might not help with simultaneous/contradictory. I'm sure there are people on this list who know much more about it than I do!) When I'm thinking of normal, every-day things, my thoughts, to me, feel nowhere near as specific and concrete as they do when I'm programming. When I'm coding something, although one could say that I'm merely expressing ideas in another language, I subjectively feel that my brain is working differently. Maybe it's similar to the differences in spatial vs verbal thinking mentioned previously on the list. -- meersan From zizban at adelphia.net Sat Aug 17 08:51:13 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 11:51:13 -0400 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length In-Reply-To: <3D5E7062.76D3E00F@attbi.com> Message-ID: <284176C2-B1F9-11D6-A8C7-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 11:48 AM, Mia McDavid wrote: > SKZB said: > >> > As for why Vlad uses techniques with a rapier that, in fact, were not > developed during the historical period on Earth when the rapier was in > use, > I will only say that there is a reason, and that this is one of the > things > I had figured out before I wrote the first word of the first story > about > > Vlad. >> > > See, Steve, I am *totally* cool with waiting for all 19 novels if > necessary for the Cool Unrevealed Backstory, but if you drop dead, is > there a letter somewhere to fill your fans in? We're all loving the > gleaning of hints and the making of guesses, but we're really *hoping* > to be able to piece it all together someday. > > Thanks! > > Mia > Yes, kind of like the JRR Tolkien effect; leave plenty of notes so you can publish books for years after you are dead. From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Sat Aug 17 08:56:43 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 10:56:43 -0500 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) References: <20020817035931.GA16523@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <3D5E723B.249BFFBE@attbi.com> Steve Simmons said: > Now, of course, 'special' has slid down that slippery slope and there's probably some new term that people are trying to use to avoid a negative connotation for intelligence deficits. > AFIK, *every* term we have for the toilet (including toilet) was devised as a euphemism for a previous term, which was devised as a euphemism for the previous term . . . And so it goes. Now 'gay' meaning, "happy, carefree" is ruined forever. 'Special' has gotten all smarmy around the edges. Who the hell decided, while I'm on a rant, that "Customer" was a dirty word? A lot of stores now call me a 'guest.' I'll be a guest when they give me a hot meal and a place to sleep, not before. Do y'all realize that 'woman' is a dirty word? Try it. "See that woman over there?" "Ask the nice woman where they keep the shampoo in this store." "I need a woman to help me here." Just try using 'woman' in every context where the equivalent usage would be 'man' for a week and see if you can stick with it. Mia From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Sat Aug 17 09:01:54 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 11:01:54 -0500 Subject: Evolving language References: <20020817091145.55182.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> <001301c245e5$40b58360$883e5418@dontbenosy> Message-ID: <3D5E7372.B57511F@attbi.com> I use 'druthers,' and you'll take it from me whe you pry it off of my cold, dead tongue! Mia From rhwhit10 at attbi.com Sat Aug 17 09:00:23 2002 From: rhwhit10 at attbi.com (Rich Whitten AT&T) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 12:00:23 -0400 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length In-Reply-To: <3D5E7062.76D3E00F@attbi.com> Message-ID: <000801c24607$3206b150$09c03d18@pcjones2001> Mia McDavid [mailto:mia_mcdavid at attbi.com] wrote: > > SKZB said: > > > > As for why Vlad uses techniques with a rapier that, in fact, > were not developed during the historical period on Earth > when the rapier was in use, I will only say that there is a > reason, and that this is one of the things I had figured out > before I wrote the first word of the first story about > > Vlad. > > > > See, Steve, I am *totally* cool with waiting for all 19 > novels if necessary for the Cool Unrevealed Backstory, but > if you drop dead, is there a letter somewhere to fill your > fans in? We're all loving the gleaning of hints and the > making of guesses, but we're really *hoping* to be able to > piece it all together someday. > Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh! Bad thought, bad thought! Someone arrest Mia for starting bad karma! Brrrrr, the thought of a premature death just chills me.... Although, a Secrets of Dragaera notebook would be very cool. How about an online only version? Nahh, on second thought, back to work on the next book of the trilogy! Cracks 'n' Shards -- http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ -- will have to suffice! Rich From singram at videotron.ca Sat Aug 17 09:00:13 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 12:00:13 -0400 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length References: <284176C2-B1F9-11D6-A8C7-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <000801c24607$2be182f0$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Turkel" To: Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 11:51 AM Subject: Re: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length > > On Saturday, August 17, 2002, at 11:48 AM, Mia McDavid wrote: > > > SKZB said: > > > >> > > As for why Vlad uses techniques with a rapier that, in fact, were not > > developed during the historical period on Earth when the rapier was in > > use, > > I will only say that there is a reason, and that this is one of the > > things > > I had figured out before I wrote the first word of the first story > > about > > > > Vlad. > >> > > > > See, Steve, I am *totally* cool with waiting for all 19 novels if > > necessary for the Cool Unrevealed Backstory, but if you drop dead, is > > there a letter somewhere to fill your fans in? We're all loving the > > gleaning of hints and the making of guesses, but we're really *hoping* > > to be able to piece it all together someday. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Mia > > > > Yes, kind of like the JRR Tolkien effect; leave plenty of notes so you > can publish books for years after you are dead. > So, if we wait a generation or so, we'll finally get to see _Vlad: The Movie_? .... and it's 16 sequels. From singram at videotron.ca Sat Aug 17 09:16:12 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 12:16:12 -0400 Subject: Evolving language References: <20020817091145.55182.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> <003201c24604$27c5e790$18a231d2@valadan> Message-ID: <004401c24609$67a4f8b0$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Baralier" To: "Caliann the Elf" ; Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 11:38 AM Subject: Re: Evolving language > > Besides, I am rather fond of the word "squick". I never realized how much > > that word was necessary to my lifestyle until I learned it. Now it is a > > regular part of my vocabulary. Useful word! You won't find it in the > > dictionary.....yet. > > As long as you're only using the word and not practicing it : > http://www.mich.com/~pnsnv/othershit/squick.html > Ewwww, now that's taking non-stagnant to the extreme!!! From mneme at io.com Sat Aug 17 10:05:16 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 12:05:16 -0500 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816174632.00ac26a0@localhost> References: <20020816043909.GC10352@infodancer.org> <16f.122a3942.2a8cc4ca@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815105845.00abb530@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020816174632.00ac26a0@localhost> Message-ID: <15710.33356.447192.105859@hagbard.io.com> Steven Brust writes: >At 09:52 AM 8/16/2002 -0500, Joshua Kronengold wrote: >>[um. I'm a historical and classical fencer with a fair amount of >>training. I'll try to explain and/or footnote any terminlogy I use, >>but I may miss some. ] >>The initial problem is that, as far as modern terminology is >>concerned. Vlad doesn't fight with a rapier [1]. He's constantly talking >>about parry-ripostes, stop cuts, and a bunch of things you can't, or >>shouldn't do with a rapier >That's odd. I've done all of those repeatedly with a rapier in >stage-combat classes and informal duels. Oh, sure -- they work fine, depending on your simulator and circumstances. (and stop-cuts work, they're just pretty slow). But parry-ripostes, while they can work, were known about by pretty much all the historical masters...and recommended against as too dangerous -- there's just too much chance that your opponent will replace their point when you're riposting. >The real answer to his question is that he is paying too much attention to >the cover, fer chrissakes. It is a *wonderful* cover, but attempting to >translate that kind of detail from text to cover is just asking to be confused. This makes a lot of sense, yes, even if the flashstones contribute to the idea that we're in the Dragaeran Renniscance. >As for why Vlad uses techniques with a rapier that, in fact, were not >developed during the historical period on Earth when the rapier was in use, As above, they were -- they were just dicouraged because the weapon didn't really do them very well. >I will only say that there is a reason, and that this is one of the things >I had figured out before I wrote the first word of the first story about Vlad. >Clue: In college, I was a sabre-man as well as doing a lot of stage combat. Hmm. I got this impression of both you and Vlad (that he's clearly studied Sabre, and says so), but am not sure how that reflects on things. Hmm. >My definition of "rapier" includes the sort of weapon in general use in >France and England from about 1600-1650, Cool. The kind that Elizabeth's laws said couldn't be more than 36 inches long on penalty of the end being cut off? >a weapon originally developed to >kill people in plate armour, but gradually modified as armour fell out of >use because too many armored men were being killed by assholes with rapiers. Historical falacy, I think, or at least incomplete -- the Spado de Lato (er, the Itallian sidesword) -was- an arming sword meant to be used against people in armor, was a cut and thrust (rather than the rapier's thrust and cut) weapon, was used in both civilian and military combat (and was what Di Grassi was writing for, IIRC; translations of his "spada" as "rapier" were later) (though not, AFAIK, against full plate); I don't know of a connection between that and the thrusting weapons developed for use against people in heavy armor much earlier -- such certainly existed, but they -seem- to me to be on a different evolutionary tree [but this is somewhat past my knowledge], and was developed by the Italians into the rapier, a civilian-only weapon intended to be used against unarmored opponents, in a period where most people didn't wear armor except in battle. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From mam at theworld.com Sat Aug 17 11:08:02 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 14:08:02 -0400 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length In-Reply-To: <000801c24607$3206b150$09c03d18@pcjones2001> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Aug 2002, Rich Whitten AT&T wrote: #Nahh, on second thought, back to work on the next book of the trilogy! #Cracks 'n' Shards -- http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ -- #will have to suffice! Sir, you honor me beyond my deserts. If the gods allow me the time, I shall endeavor to bring my site up to date. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From spenn at shaw.ca Sat Aug 17 11:24:18 2002 From: spenn at shaw.ca (Sean) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 11:24:18 -0700 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length References: <20020816043909.GC10352@infodancer.org> <16f.122a3942.2a8cc4ca@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815105845.00abb530@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020816174632.00ac26a0@localhost> <15710.33356.447192.105859@hagbard.io.com> Message-ID: <003901c2461b$4d23fa60$883e5418@dontbenosy> Steve said: > >a weapon originally developed to > >kill people in plate armour, but gradually modified as armour fell out of > >use because too many armored men were being killed by assholes with rapiers. > I always assumed it was assholes with guns From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Aug 17 11:56:37 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 17 Aug 2002 13:56:37 -0500 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <200208162052.g7GKqBo05087@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200208162052.g7GKqBo05087@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: Chris Olson - SunPS writes: > > > > No, no. That's called "serial monogamy"... :) > > > > > > I thought that was when you alwayse ate the same thing for breakfast? > > > -- > > Why yes, that is exactly what it means. > > Wouldn't that be "Cereal Monogamy"? For which That's when you want to eat breakfast with the same person each morning, I thought. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Aug 17 11:59:10 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 17 Aug 2002 13:59:10 -0500 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816172735.00a86cd0@localhost> References: <15709.2924.651473.186063@gw.dd-b.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020816172735.00a86cd0@localhost> Message-ID: Steven Brust writes: > At 08:15 AM 8/16/2002 -0700, Caliann the Elf wrote: > > >Emotion has no place in an intellectual debate. Remember that.:):):) > > > > Hmmm...I'm afraid that, while agreeing with your main point, I'll have > to dispute this one. I think emotion is often important in > intellectual debates--at least, to me that frequently involve passion. > Sometimes this leads to irritation, and sometimes that goes too far. > Being called back from that is a good thing. I'd say that emotion is often *involved* in intellectual debates, and that they frequently *do* involve passion -- but that this is a bad thing. Well, it's a bad thing if the emotion prevents you from seeing valid objections to your position, or leads you to treat others so as to engage *their* emotions negatively. This is your "goes too far" case I believe. If it just leads you to work hard at the argument, then I guess that's good. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Aug 17 12:00:55 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 17 Aug 2002 14:00:55 -0500 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <20020817042239.GL30233@infodancer.org> References: <20020817035931.GA16523@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <20020817042239.GL30233@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Matthew Hunter writes: > On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 11:59:31PM -0400, Steve Simmons wrote: > > Now, of course, 'special' has slid down that slippery slope and there's > > probably some new term that people are trying to use to avoid a negative > > connotation for intelligence deficits. > > "challenged". Or "differently". Which has lead to the sarcastic phrase "differently clued", which I *adore*. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Aug 17 12:02:44 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 17 Aug 2002 14:02:44 -0500 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Casey Rousseau writes: > > There's a dynamic here that just ain't gonna fly. If we retain the > > subtle distinction between various words while simultaneously adding > > new words as they crop up and letting things evolve as they should, > > we wind up with a language so large and complex that no-one can master it. > > > > Hell, with English we probably reached that point centuries ago. We're > > What's the count on Shakespeare's vocabulary vs the average well educated > speaker of American English? You're expecting our vocabulary to be as larger or larger, I presume? Could be. Of course, it's not how big it is; it's what you *do* with it that matters. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Aug 17 12:07:51 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 17 Aug 2002 14:07:51 -0500 Subject: Evolving language In-Reply-To: <20020817091145.55182.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20020817091145.55182.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Caliann the Elf writes: > I have to agree that the English Language is large, ponderous and > unweildy. It could stand to be whittled down into something more > efficient. When was the last time anyone used the word "druthers" > as a synonym for "choice"? Actually, when was the last time anyone > used the word "druthers" when it was not precluded by the words > "Give my..." or "If I had my..."? Dunno *when*, but it popped right up in my head. Very colloquial, but still current IMHO. > Then again, new words do come into the language. Being a computer > geek for a living, I do not believe I could live and without many of > the new words and acronyms. > > Besides, I am rather fond of the word "squick". I never realized > how much that word was necessary to my lifestyle until I learned it. > Now it is a regular part of my vocabulary. Useful word! You won't > find it in the dictionary.....yet. Very important word. You are aware of the ongoing search for citations to document vaious SF terms into the OED, mostly being discussed in usenet rec.arts.sf.written, aren't you? The OED team seems to be working the net hard to help them. > There is a point to this, which is that I DO feel that English can > use a lot of help. It could be streamlined into what is actually > USED. I'd like a dictionary that didn't have the name of a piece of > harness used for draft horses in the 1200's. A "modern use in > vocabulary" dictionary. I'd like a *spelling* dictionary for my word processor based on that principle. That's where it hurts to have unused words. I don't mind a big dictionary -- the CD is the same size regardless :-). (Proud owner of the OED on CD rom). > *Owned and Operated by the Grand Poohbah Cheese of the Universe* Wow, the Grand Poohbah Cheese himself? You're so very fortunate! -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Aug 17 12:10:31 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 17 Aug 2002 14:10:31 -0500 Subject: Evolving language In-Reply-To: <003201c24604$27c5e790$18a231d2@valadan> References: <20020817091145.55182.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> <003201c24604$27c5e790$18a231d2@valadan> Message-ID: "Baralier" writes: > Caliann the Elf wrote... > > Besides, I am rather fond of the word "squick". I never realized how much > > that word was necessary to my lifestyle until I learned it. Now it is a > > regular part of my vocabulary. Useful word! You won't find it in the > > dictionary.....yet. > > As long as you're only using the word and not practicing it : > http://www.mich.com/~pnsnv/othershit/squick.html People don't practice it, pretty much by definition -- since the general use is to describe practices they *strongly* don't want to engage in. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From FelixEisen at aol.com Sat Aug 17 12:14:19 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 15:14:19 EDT Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length Message-ID: <15f.126c2c22.2a8ffa8b@aol.com> Believe it or not, I got the impression that Vlad was, well ... barely tolerable as a sorcerer, passingly competent as a witch, and pretty good as a fencer -- but he clearly wasn't anywhere near the level of skill with the latter two as his grandfather. I also got the impression that Vlad was too, well, spread out; Noish-Pa did his witchcraft (or ran his witchcraft shop, really the same thing) and fenced and cooked; Vlad ran his area, and got involved in Dragaeran politics, and went to war and the Land of the Dead, and dabbled in sorcery, and threw knives and darts, and assassinated people, and worked on witchcraft now and then, and got romantically involved with a whole -string- of people (losing his lunch to far too many teleports, IIRC), and learned three or four different styles of swordfighting, and traded banter with Loiosh and Cawti and Kragar and Morrolan, and ... well, you get the idea. Vlad is good against Dragaerans because their full-frontal nudi -- err, full-frontal gosh-I've-got-a-big-sword-here style is comparatively slow. His sword style is, pretty clearly, a bastardization; he fights the way he fights because all of these different styles are muddled together so he uses what his instincts are at the moment, combined with what he's trying to do, and generally trying to survive. Vlad ISN'T ... dammit, I forget Noish-Pa's actual name; Kelly says it at one point. Anyhow, the point (ha!) is that Vlad isn't his grandfather, Vlad would not (and probably could not) take on four Phoenix Guards at one time and emerge unscathed. Noish-Pa, on the other hand, left four puncture holes over four elf hearts ... wasn't he drinking tea in the kitchen? So. Steve, whilst he may have everything figured out, etc. etc., still has a durn good excuse to fall back on in the meantime. ;) Vlad likes to think he's a fencer, and that's the primary 'style' he uses, but he's got too much of everything else to be a really good point man the way his grandfather is. Knightmarshall Felix Surnamed Eisen, or "Iron Felix" Hand of Morr, The Order of Bones From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Aug 17 12:16:36 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 17 Aug 2002 14:16:36 -0500 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816171651.029d7b30@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815234105.029ceb80@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020816171651.029d7b30@localhost> Message-ID: Steven Brust writes: > It may be that my definition of "language" is too broad to be useful. > But it seems to me that it is valid to make the point that thought > occurs by manipulating symbols in our brains. I believe that the > learning of a skill involves (in part) learning the language > associated with that skill. That was my point. Now, at *some* level thought occurs by diffusing neurotransmitters through the soup. If what's in our head *actually* works anything like a "neural network" (the modern technological concept) works, I'd say that "symbol" isn't a very relevent concept to it. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Aug 17 12:18:59 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 17 Aug 2002 14:18:59 -0500 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <3D5D9FD3.48DC337@attbi.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815234105.029ceb80@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020816171651.029d7b30@localhost> <3D5D9FD3.48DC337@attbi.com> Message-ID: Mia McDavid writes: > SKZB wrote: > > >I believe that the learning of a skill > >involves (in part) learning the language associated with that skill. > That > >was my point. > > This ties in nicely with a thought that occurred to me once while I was > studying biology. > > A *huge* (but not, admittedly, total) portion of a doctor's knowledge > and skill lies in terminology. If she can name every part of the human > body, she therefore knows (at least in terms of existence and location) > about every part of the body. If she can name the hormones, enzymes, > glands, etc., this too is essential medical knowledge. Vocabulary is > the bulk of the skill. The rest is observation--learning to recognize > the vocabulary "in the flesh". Even here, the memory skills necessary > to hook the pieces of knowledge together--yellow sclera means bile > buildup; check liver functions--will greatly assist the doctor in making > good use of clinical experience. Which is one reason I never was tempted to be a doctor. I've always *hated* memorization, and argue that it's a horrible way to learn most things. Stuff I actually need I'll end up learning by repeated use. Stuff I memorize will depart shortly after the test. There are obvious examples, medicine being one of the best, and foreign languages also featuring prominently, where specifically memorizing things clearly *is* relevant. And I even took two foreign languages, voluntarily (german and russian). And memorizing vocabulary didn't bother me that much -- it was so obviously relevant. But mostly, memorization gives me hives. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Aug 17 12:19:30 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 17 Aug 2002 14:19:30 -0500 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mark A Mandel writes: > On 16 Aug 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > #I definitely don't figure color comparisons verbally. I only have the > #"guy" list of color names (I think it's a 16-color palette); and then > #overlaid on top of it the ability from years of photography and design > #play the ability to say "too much red in that" or "needs a little more > #green". > # > #I have no idea how I do that; I certainly don't see images of the > #colors in my head. > > So there's one example of non-verbal thought, right? Is that "thought"? I tend to reserve that word for verbal reasoning. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From rone at ennui.org Sat Aug 17 12:56:11 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 12:56:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Evolving language In-Reply-To: <20020817091145.55182.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020817195611.25E5726E26@boredom.ennui.org> Caliann the Elf writes: As for Shakespear, I adore Shakespear, but the language has changed in many ways since then. I am sure thee knowest of what I speak, forsooth. I have no joke here, i just like saying, "Thou look'st passing fair, milady, excepst thou manglest the Queen's good English and your tits are hanging out." rone -- {Reagan's} presidency always reminded me of a remark made by a woman to Heywood Broun following Secretariat's victory in the Triple Crown. After the trauma of Vietnam and Watergate, she said, Secretariat had "restored her faith in humanity." I like to think Reagan was the Secretariat of the eighties. - Garry Trudeau From scs at di.org Sat Aug 17 12:47:19 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 15:47:19 -0400 Subject: What's a duck, or thinking in pictures Message-ID: <20020817194718.GA1386@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> In relation to the discussion of language and thinking in words -- Yesterday evening we went to dinner with friends and then afterwards walked thru the riverside paths in Brighton, MI. While there we saw a kind of duck we'd never seen before. Definately ducks, and since there were three of them we were pretty sure it wasn't a fluke or weird cross-breed. I took a mental snapshot, came home, and headed for the bird books. The closest I got to verbalizing my intent was `I've got to look up at in the .' It would be more accurate to say I had a moving picture in my head of grabbing the book and opening it to the index. Not really thinking in words at all. -- "Deconstruction is [when] a work is interpreted as a statement about itself, using a literary version of the same cheap trick that Kurt Godel used to try to frighten mathematicians back in the thirties." -- Chip Morningstar in From books at bofh.com Sat Aug 17 13:02:09 2002 From: books at bofh.com (books at bofh.com) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:02:09 -0700 (MST) Subject: Evolving language In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sat, 17 Aug 2002 10:47:44 -0500" <3.0.5.32.20020817104744.007ae170@astound.net> References: <20020817091145.55182.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> <001301c245e5$40b58360$883e5418@dontbenosy> Message-ID: <01KLELQL5ZWO0013MG@chud.net> >very particular sort of meaning. But programming languages are >very, very strictly defined. Unlike natural language, programming >languages very rarely possess symbols that have simultaneous >meanings depending on the context. How does a compiler handle >ambiguity? It doesn't. We define the rules so there is no Counterexample: sendmail.cf -> $: (as well as any number of other $ variables) It is, however the exception, not the rule. -Jot From scs at di.org Sat Aug 17 12:53:36 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 15:53:36 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <20020817195336.GA1660@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> David Dyer-Bennet writes: > I'd say that emotion is often *involved* in intellectual debates, and > that they frequently *do* involve passion -- but that this is a bad > thing. I may be stepping outside the province of `intellectual debates,' but emotion (if it's honest emotion, not faked or exaggerated for effect) is a good indication of the intensity or importance of something to the expressing person. There's a helluva difference between my wife's opinion of leaving the toilet seat up and the right way to put the toilet paper in the dispenser. Both seem to me to be 50/50 propositions; I can make a decent intellectual arguement that both *are* 50/50 propositions. Nonetheless the strength of her reaction to one of them leads me to yield the point without an arguement. And no, let's not talk about the validity of either of those choices. -- "Deconstruction is [when] a work is interpreted as a statement about itself, using a literary version of the same cheap trick that Kurt Godel used to try to frighten mathematicians back in the thirties." -- Chip Morningstar in From rone at ennui.org Sat Aug 17 12:32:22 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 12:32:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length In-Reply-To: <284176C2-B1F9-11D6-A8C7-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <20020817193222.BAE8C26E26@boredom.ennui.org> Chris Turkel writes: Yes, kind of like the JRR Tolkien effect; leave plenty of notes so you can publish books for years after you are dead. Well, the problem with that is, taking the Herbert-Anderson Dune prequels as an example, it might be better to will all notes to someone who can actually write something /good/ with them. rone -- {Reagan's} presidency always reminded me of a remark made by a woman to Heywood Broun following Secretariat's victory in the Triple Crown. After the trauma of Vietnam and Watergate, she said, Secretariat had "restored her faith in humanity." I like to think Reagan was the Secretariat of the eighties. - Garry Trudeau From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Sat Aug 17 13:16:11 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 16:16:11 -0400 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length References: <15f.126c2c22.2a8ffa8b@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D5EAF0B.7605D8A3@earthlink.net> FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: > > Believe it or not, I got the impression that Vlad was, well ... barely > tolerable as a sorcerer, passingly competent as a witch, and pretty good as a > fencer -- but he clearly wasn't anywhere near the level of skill with the > latter two as his grandfather. I also got the impression that Vlad was too, I would argue that Vlad is more than competent as a witch. Teleporting the blood of a goddess from his apartment to the Paths of the Dead is, in my opinion, an extraordinary feat; the resulting spell is one that should put him on par with his grandfather. As a fighter, Vlad's skills lie in his improvisational abilities; he understands the Dragaeran style well enough to defend against it even when overmatched, and more to the point, he fights dirty, using every conceivable advantage he can. I believe that the fight involving Noish-pa and the Phoenix Guards resulted as it did in part because of Noish-pa's skill with the blade, but also because I think that the Guards underestimated him, and probably did not or could not use sorcery. In most fights Vlad is in, he has to defend against sorcery as well as steel, and he's managed to survive so far. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Aug 17 12:33:16 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 17 Aug 2002 14:33:16 -0500 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length In-Reply-To: <20020817023741.GJ30233@infodancer.org> References: <20020816043909.GC10352@infodancer.org> <16f.122a3942.2a8cc4ca@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815105845.00abb530@localhost> <20020816043909.GC10352@infodancer.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020816174632.00ac26a0@localhost> <20020817023741.GJ30233@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Matthew Hunter writes: > On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 05:55:38PM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: > > The real answer to his question is that he is paying too much attention to > > the cover, fer chrissakes. It is a *wonderful* cover, but attempting to > > translate that kind of detail from text to cover is just asking to be > > confused. > > Well, I'm trying to reconcile the text with the cover, and > wondering where in a number of possibilities the error lay. > If the answer is "The cover artist is smoking crack", so be it. Detailed accuracy in a cover is very much not something to expect. Heck, I've stopped even *hoping* for it. Apart from everything else, it often interferes with the important purpose of the cover. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From rone at ennui.org Sat Aug 17 12:35:14 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 12:35:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length In-Reply-To: <003901c2461b$4d23fa60$883e5418@dontbenosy> Message-ID: <20020817193514.74A7E26E26@boredom.ennui.org> Sean writes: Steve said: > >a weapon originally developed to > >kill people in plate armour, but gradually modified as armour fell out of > >use because too many armored men were being killed by assholes with > >rapiers. I always assumed it was assholes with guns No, this is definitely pre-guns. The English longbow could punch through plate armor. rone -- {Reagan's} presidency always reminded me of a remark made by a woman to Heywood Broun following Secretariat's victory in the Triple Crown. After the trauma of Vietnam and Watergate, she said, Secretariat had "restored her faith in humanity." I like to think Reagan was the Secretariat of the eighties. - Garry Trudeau From books at bofh.com Sat Aug 17 13:19:24 2002 From: books at bofh.com (books at bofh.com) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:19:24 -0700 (MST) Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length Message-ID: <01KLEMAU4ZGE0013MG@chud.net> *Grrrr* Forgot to change the To: header -Jot -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: books at bofh.com Subject: Re: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:12:41 -0700 (MST) Size: 1839 Url: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20020817/78a71f64/attachment.mht From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Aug 17 12:36:18 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 17 Aug 2002 14:36:18 -0500 Subject: FW: More word usage... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Casey Rousseau writes: > Kat wrote: > > Trivia: "fishes" is correct when referring to a group of said animal which > > consists of more than one species. "Fish" is for a group of the same > > species. > > Fishes is also the traditional usage when speaking of Jesus' feeding > miracles AKA the miracle of the Loaves and the Fishes. Obviously, he provided a *variety* of fishes. We can deduce this from that usage :-) -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From books at bofh.com Sat Aug 17 13:05:29 2002 From: books at bofh.com (books at bofh.com) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:05:29 -0700 (MST) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sat, 17 Aug 2002 10:56:43 -0500" <3D5E723B.249BFFBE@attbi.com> References: <20020817035931.GA16523@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <01KLELWK2ZV20013MG@chud.net> >And so it goes. Now 'gay' meaning, "happy, carefree" is ruined >forever. 'Special' has gotten all smarmy around the edges. One of my favorite examples of this is "fagged". A word that I would never even have thought to use. Where did I see it? One of the early _Martian Chronicles_ fron Edgar Rice Burroughs. (A definite guilty pleasure) >Do y'all realize that 'woman' is a dirty word? Try it. "See that woman >over there?" "Ask the nice woman where they keep the shampoo in this >store." "I need a woman to help me here." Just try using 'woman' in >every context where the equivalent usage would be 'man' for a week and >see if you can stick with it. I had a fried a few years ago who was an avowed feminist, and she told me the story of how she went on a kick where every occurrence of "man" could equally be "woman". She gave it up when she realized that she didn't really want them referred to as "womanholes". -Jot From mam at theworld.com Sat Aug 17 13:37:15 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 16:37:15 -0400 Subject: Evolving language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 17 Aug 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: #"Baralier" writes: # #> As long as you're only using the word and not practicing it : #> http://www.mich.com/~pnsnv/othershit/squick.html # #People don't practice it, pretty much by definition -- since the #general use is to describe practices they *strongly* don't want to #engage in. For anyone reading this thread who may take that URL's text seriously: to the people I've learned "squick" from -- people who use the word, as distinguished from people who say, "Oh, here's a fun word, what can I do with it?" -- it means something like "to be a strong turn-off to (a person), to upset or disgust (someone)": 1."That squicks me, please stop doing/ describing it." 2. "Who's at the door? Are they bothered by nudity?" "Oh, it's Mark. He's OK. Mark?" "Nudity doesn't squick me." "It doesn't squick him." "Come on in." 3."The stuff at that URL *really* squicked me, and no, what it says isn't 'squick' really means." And I have no trouble at all believing that there are people who get a kick out of describing something that they think will make the other person turn green and say "Oh, ICK!", or worse. And some of them, alas, have somehow gotten past fourth grade. And to do that is to practice squicking, in the sense I have described, which I think is the only sense in which the word is used for real. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Sat Aug 17 13:44:38 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 16:44:38 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [David Dyer-Bennet] #> #I definitely don't figure color comparisons verbally. I only have the #> #"guy" list of color names (I think it's a 16-color palette); and then #> #overlaid on top of it the ability from years of photography and design #> #play the ability to say "too much red in that" or "needs a little more #> #green". #> # #> #I have no idea how I do that; I certainly don't see images of the #> #colors in my head. [MM] #> So there's one example of non-verbal thought, right? [DDB again] #Is that "thought"? I tend to reserve that word for verbal reasoning. I think this is where we came in: whether or not "thinking" can be done without words. If you define it away, then (ISTM) you're opting out of the discussion. When I visualize what would happen to the space in the car trunk if I put THIS suitcase THERE, turned on its side, and then slid THAT box in next to it in SUCH-AND-SUCH orientation and laid THAT bag on top of the box, slipping it in under the overhang JUST SO... I'm *thinking*, by any definition I care to use, but the content of my thinking is largely visual, partly kinesthetic, and only slightly verbal, if at all. Would you call that "non-verbal reasoning"? Why would you not call it "thinking"? -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Sat Aug 17 13:50:04 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 16:50:04 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) (fwd) Message-ID: Grr. Missed "reply to all" again. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 16:49:25 -0400 From: Mark A Mandel To: magical truthsaying bastard roney! Subject: Re: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) On Sat, 17 Aug 2002, magical truthsaying bastard roney! wrote: #Mark A Mandel writes: # But I disagree. "Hopefully, X is the case" is not the same as "I hope X # is the case". As AHD4's Usage Note observes, you can follow the latter, # but not the former, with "but probably not". # #Use "with any luck," instead. You may feel comfortable equating them. I don't feel the same about the phrases, nor about "God willing", though I use all three of them with, I suppose, similar semantic values. Hmm, why not?... "With any luck" emphasizes a random or uncontrolled aspect of the situation, the risks. "Hopefully" focuses on the positive side: half full, rather than half empty. And "God willing" has religious aspects, of course. The choice of which of these to use is significant. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Sat Aug 17 13:51:45 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 16:51:45 -0400 Subject: Evolving language In-Reply-To: <20020817195611.25E5726E26@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Aug 2002, magical truthsaying bastard roney! wrote: #I have no joke here, i just like saying, "Thou look'st passing fair, #milady, excepst thou manglest the Queen's good English and your tits #are hanging out." If thou seekest consistency in thy speech, conclude instead by saying not "your tits", but "thy tits". -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Sat Aug 17 13:54:29 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 16:54:29 -0400 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length In-Reply-To: <20020817193222.BAE8C26E26@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Aug 2002, magical truthsaying bastard roney! wrote: #Chris Turkel writes: # Yes, kind of like the JRR Tolkien effect; leave plenty of notes so you # can publish books for years after you are dead. # #Well, the problem with that is, taking the Herbert-Anderson Dune #prequels as an example, it might be better to will all notes to #someone who can actually write something /good/ with them. If we're going there, then I'll add: While you're still living and writing, don't get so pumped with your big success that you decide you don't need any editing. Ever notice how much crisper _Dune_ is than (especially the later) sequels? Huge amounts of stuff got sent to the appendices, and probably lots more to the shredder. -- Mark M. From Gaertk at aol.com Sat Aug 17 13:55:55 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 16:55:55 -0400 Subject: OT: November (was Sethra Lavode...) Message-ID: <224AD1CD.5E935F6A.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Fri, 16 Aug 2002 5:53:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Davis, Iain E." writes: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Gaertk at aol.com [mailto:Gaertk at aol.com] >> Sent: Friday, 2002 August 16 14:54 PM >> To: dragaera at dragaera.info >> Subject: November (was Sethra Lavode...) > >> Is that the director's cut? ?If so, I'll have to add it to >> my list. > > Well..."Director's Cut" isn't quite the right term, but > yes, that's the Extended/Special Edition. ?According to the > previews and comments on the non-extended version, the > extended version will have 30 minutes (bringing the total > time to 208 minutes!) of extra footage, some of which was > filmed specifically for the extended version. ?Lists for a > painful $39.99 on DVD (4 discs). Hmm. But does it have all the footage cut from the original? >?Details of each disc can be found here: >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/dvd/B000067DNF/reviews/qid=1029538178/sr=2-2/ref=sr_2_2/102-0978205-5989766 The stuff listed for discs 3 and 4 I don't care about nor need. And is there any way to shorten Amazon's links? I know all the tricks for linking Usenet articles through Google, but nothing about what is and is not neccessary in Amazon links. --KG From mam at theworld.com Sat Aug 17 13:56:37 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 16:56:37 -0400 Subject: Evolving language In-Reply-To: <01KLELQL5ZWO0013MG@chud.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 books at bofh.com wrote: #>very particular sort of meaning. But programming languages are #>very, very strictly defined. Unlike natural language, programming #>languages very rarely possess symbols that have simultaneous #>meanings depending on the context. How does a compiler handle #>ambiguity? It doesn't. We define the rules so there is no # #Counterexample: # #sendmail.cf -> $: #(as well as any number of other $ variables) Is that a counterexample? Variables have, well, variable meanings, but in any context -- at runtime -- only one of them will be in effect. I'm putting this as a question rather than an assertion because I don't know the language of this construction. But am I right here? -- Mark A. Mandel From Gaertk at aol.com Sat Aug 17 14:09:25 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 17:09:25 -0400 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length Message-ID: <4F135C3E.3A83D787.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Sat, 17 Aug 2002 10:51:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, Chris Turkel writes: > Yes, kind of like the JRR Tolkien effect; leave plenty of > notes so you can publish books for years after you are > dead. At least let someone publish your file of Cool Opening Lines, please. --KG From rone at ennui.org Sat Aug 17 14:13:00 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 14:13:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ugly amazon.com links In-Reply-To: <224AD1CD.5E935F6A.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020817211300.C3BC326E27@boredom.ennui.org> Gaertk at aol.com writes: >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/dvd/B000067DNF/reviews/qid=1029538178/sr=2-2/ref=sr_2_2/102-0978205-5989766 And is there any way to shorten Amazon's links? You can cut off anything after 'reviews'. If you cut off 'reviews', you get the item's main page. rone -- {Reagan's} presidency always reminded me of a remark made by a woman to Heywood Broun following Secretariat's victory in the Triple Crown. After the trauma of Vietnam and Watergate, she said, Secretariat had "restored her faith in humanity." I like to think Reagan was the Secretariat of the eighties. - Garry Trudeau From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Aug 17 14:15:23 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 17 Aug 2002 16:15:23 -0500 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <20020817195336.GA1660@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20020817195336.GA1660@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: Steve Simmons writes: > David Dyer-Bennet writes: > > > I'd say that emotion is often *involved* in intellectual debates, and > > that they frequently *do* involve passion -- but that this is a bad > > thing. > > I may be stepping outside the province of `intellectual debates,' but > emotion (if it's honest emotion, not faked or exaggerated for effect) > is a good indication of the intensity or importance of something to the > expressing person. I do think that's going outside the province of intellectual debates. *How much* somebody cares about something *in an intellectual debate* is completely irrelevant, except tactically. The truth of a belief is not increased by believing it more passionately. And intellectual debate is about *truth*. Obviously, many issues that we debate with people in day-to-day life are not issues best settled in a purely intellectual debate. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From rone at ennui.org Sat Aug 17 14:09:22 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 14:09:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Evolving language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020817210923.0279626E27@boredom.ennui.org> Mark A Mandel writes: On Sat, 17 Aug 2002, magical truthsaying bastard roney! wrote: #I have no joke here, i just like saying, "Thou look'st passing fair, #milady, excepst thou manglest the Queen's good English and your tits #are hanging out." If thou seekest consistency in thy speech, conclude instead by saying not "your tits", but "thy tits". Don't tell me, tell Neil Gaiman... rone -- {Reagan's} presidency always reminded me of a remark made by a woman to Heywood Broun following Secretariat's victory in the Triple Crown. After the trauma of Vietnam and Watergate, she said, Secretariat had "restored her faith in humanity." I like to think Reagan was the Secretariat of the eighties. - Garry Trudeau From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Aug 17 14:21:23 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 17 Aug 2002 16:21:23 -0500 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mark A Mandel writes: > [David Dyer-Bennet] > #> #I definitely don't figure color comparisons verbally. I only have the > #> #"guy" list of color names (I think it's a 16-color palette); and then > #> #overlaid on top of it the ability from years of photography and design > #> #play the ability to say "too much red in that" or "needs a little more > #> #green". > #> # > #> #I have no idea how I do that; I certainly don't see images of the > #> #colors in my head. > > [MM] > #> So there's one example of non-verbal thought, right? > > [DDB again] > #Is that "thought"? I tend to reserve that word for verbal reasoning. > > I think this is where we came in: whether or not "thinking" can be done > without words. If you define it away, then (ISTM) you're opting out of > the discussion. > > When I visualize what would happen to the space in the car trunk if I > put THIS suitcase THERE, turned on its side, and then slid THAT box in > next to it in SUCH-AND-SUCH orientation and laid THAT bag on top of the > box, slipping it in under the overhang JUST SO... I'm *thinking*, by any > definition I care to use, but the content of my thinking is largely > visual, partly kinesthetic, and only slightly verbal, if at all. Would > you call that "non-verbal reasoning"? Why would you not call it > "thinking"? The color matching thing, I simply don't *know*. Too little of it takes place anywhere I can see it to have any idea how it's done, so I have no opinion if it's thought or what. By one definition everything taking place in the human head is thought, but I suspect that of being too broad to be useful. And I think if you can't justify your conclusion, that you haven't achieved "thought", or at least you can't *show* that you've achieved thought. A guess that happens to be right isn't "thought" as I understand it. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From spenn at shaw.ca Sat Aug 17 14:16:10 2002 From: spenn at shaw.ca (Sean) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 14:16:10 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) References: <20020817035931.GA16523@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <3D5E723B.249BFFBE@attbi.com> Message-ID: <005a01c24633$4f303130$883e5418@dontbenosy> > AFIK, *every* term we have for the toilet (including toilet) was devised > as a euphemism for a previous term, which was devised as a euphemism for > the previous term . . . > > And so it goes. Now 'gay' meaning, "happy, carefree" is ruined > forever. 'Special' has gotten all smarmy around the edges. > I don't really have a point or counter-point - everyone is making good sense, but the discussion and different viewpoints are so interesting and informative that I can't help but splash some of my paint on this technicolour canvas. 'Twas brillig, and the slithey toves did gyre and and gimble in the wabe All mimsy were the borogroves And the mome raths out gabe Lewis Carrol - from "Jabberwocky". (from memory too, so please don't get upset if it's not perfect) I've heard these words called "port_man_teau" -- spelled wrongly <= ; ) no doubt -- meaning they are nonsensical combination words - slithey - maybe a combination of slimey and slither (we can only guess; Carrol doesn't explain his words). This is definitely subjective, and you can only get the gist of what he is describing, and you need to read the whole poem to get a better context, but it works. He is celebrating subjectivity, busting down pedantic rules and regulations regarding word use, definition, case, type, spelling, etc, and entertaining us too. Instruction and delight. I like it. It tickles. I think there's a place and need for this type of exploration of the language. In fact, I believe it is unavoidable. It's natural. Our language IS closely linked to how we think. Or actually, the reverse. How we think is dictated by language. If you think in Chinese you will have a different perspective from one who thinks in English. You can't help it - there is so much cultural and historical baggage attached to each expression and word and sound in a language. Compare the size of a Chinese translation of an English engineering textbook to the original. The Chinese translation is 3 or 4 times as large. Poetry translations generally fall way short of the truths the authors are entertaining. Chinese is *very* different from western languages, and carries immense amounts of baggage. (I've lived there, and speak enough to shop and travel, and believe me, it assumes a different thought process - and I'm not talking about grammatical construction - I don't want to (hell, can't) even get into the written language). So by definition (or at least by MY definition), language is extremely subjective. Its elastic nature is natural. Words are simulacrums of thoughts and ideas, and fuzzy ones at that, but we create them as naturally as a bird building a nest. Steve said: >There are cases of children growing up in complete isolation who develop >"ideologues" or whatever they are called--languages only they can >understand. As we get older our minds become less flexible, and tend to resist change. So we agree to definitions, and muddle through as best we can, and some of us, like Steve, can do more, and some of us, like Shakespeare, add to our vocabulary, and others, like Snoop Dog or Mace, co-op it, and some like Carrol destroy it and remake it into something else. Maybe Carrol was a destroyer because he was a mathematician. I had a calculus instructor in university who would never use traditional variables. He always called them something wacky, or used a mundane word like "elephant" instead (of X or Y). Functions and derivatives were a nightmare =). From Gaertk at aol.com Sat Aug 17 14:32:56 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 17:32:56 -0400 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length Message-ID: <28F061A2.513087E4.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Fri, 16 Aug 2002 7:55:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, Steven Brust writes: > As for why Vlad uses techniques with a rapier that, in > fact, were not developed during the historical period on > Earth when the rapier was in use, I will only say that > there is a reason, and that this is one of the things I had > figured out before I wrote the first word of the first > story about Vlad. oh oh I know this one: "I like cloaks and rapiers. So I write stories with a lot of cloaks and rapiers in 'em, 'cause that's cool." http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue224/interview.html Or did you mean the part about this world being colonized by a bunch of Hungarian socialists led by a master fencer? --KG From davids at kithrup.com Sat Aug 17 14:34:57 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 14:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Evolving language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Aug 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Sat, 17 Aug 2002, magical truthsaying bastard roney! wrote: > >#I have no joke here, i just like saying, "Thou look'st passing fair, >#milady, excepst thou manglest the Queen's good English and your tits >#are hanging out." > >If thou seekest consistency in thy speech, conclude instead by saying >not "your tits", but "thy tits". Well, it should actually have an attribution, since it's a quote: "Thou look'st passing fair, milady, excepst thou manglest the Queen's good English and your tits are hanging out." -- Robert Gadling to his girlfriend Guenevere, in "The Wake: Sunday Mourning" (Sandman 73) Rob (and Neil) knows the correct grammar, but he's taking the piss. From Gaertk at aol.com Sat Aug 17 14:37:42 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 17:37:42 -0400 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length Message-ID: <2F451885.12D6588B.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Sat, 17 Aug 2002 2:14:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, FelixEisen at aol.com writes: > dammit, I forget Noish-Pa's actual name; Kelly says it at > one point. Actually, he doesn't. I remember specifically looking for that last time I read _Teckla_. Teldra doesn't use it in _Phoenix_ either, nor Cawti at the end of _Yendi_. We just plain don't know his name yet. --KG From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Sat Aug 17 14:38:19 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 17:38:19 -0400 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length References: <2F451885.12D6588B.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D5EC24B.1132B825@earthlink.net> Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated Sat, 17 Aug 2002 2:14:19 PM Eastern > Standard Time, FelixEisen at aol.com writes: > > > dammit, I forget Noish-Pa's actual name; Kelly says it at > > one point. > > Actually, he doesn't. I remember specifically looking for > that last time I read _Teckla_. Teldra doesn't use it in > _Phoenix_ either, nor Cawti at the end of _Yendi_. We just > plain don't know his name yet. In fact, Kelly calls him "Taltos". Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~jhereg69 From Gaertk at aol.com Sat Aug 17 14:48:31 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 17:48:31 -0400 Subject: Evolving language Message-ID: <428F2DAF.36938AA4.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Sat, 17 Aug 2002 3:51:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, Mark A Mandel writes: > On Sat, 17 Aug 2002, magical truthsaying bastard roney! > wrote: > ># I have no joke here, i just like saying, "Thou look'st ># passing fair, milady, excepst thou manglest the Queen's ># good English and your tits are hanging out." > > If thou seekest consistency in thy speech, conclude instead > by saying not "your tits", but "thy tits". I believe from the context [1] that the last part was intended to be humorously contrasting instead of consistent. [1] Gaiman's Sandman, "Sunday Mourning", in _The Wake_ (need I add this series is a must read?) --KG From singram at videotron.ca Sat Aug 17 14:51:31 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 17:51:31 -0400 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length References: <20020816043909.GC10352@infodancer.org><16f.122a3942.2a8cc4ca@aol.com><5.1.0.14.0.20020815105845.00abb530@localhost><20020816043909.GC10352@infodancer.org><5.1.0.14.0.20020816174632.00ac26a0@localhost><20020817023741.GJ30233@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <001d01c24638$400b9910$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Dyer-Bennet" To: Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 3:33 PM Subject: Re: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length > Matthew Hunter writes: > > > On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 05:55:38PM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: > > > The real answer to his question is that he is paying too much attention to > > > the cover, fer chrissakes. It is a *wonderful* cover, but attempting to > > > translate that kind of detail from text to cover is just asking to be > > > confused. > > > > Well, I'm trying to reconcile the text with the cover, and > > wondering where in a number of possibilities the error lay. > > If the answer is "The cover artist is smoking crack", so be it. > > Detailed accuracy in a cover is very much not something to expect. > Heck, I've stopped even *hoping* for it. Apart from everything else, > it often interferes with the important purpose of the cover. > -- One of the most glaring cover errors is that Vlad is always depicted as clean-shaven; when we know for a fact that he takes pride in facial hair, because Dragaerans don't have facial hair. Having said that, I really really like all of Steve's covers. P.S. 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Nonymous" yulia_nixie (at) mail.ru (email) "nixie" zizban (at) adelphia.net (email) Chris Turkel From rone at ennui.org Sat Aug 17 15:18:08 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 15:18:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cover muffs In-Reply-To: <001d01c24638$400b9910$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: <20020817221808.1BE6626E29@boredom.ennui.org> Scott Ingram writes: One of the most glaring cover errors is that Vlad is always depicted as clean-shaven; when we know for a fact that he takes pride in facial hair, because Dragaerans don't have facial hair. Less glaring but just as big an error is that Steven has mentioned that jhereg have two legs, not four. rone -- {Reagan's} presidency always reminded me of a remark made by a woman to Heywood Broun following Secretariat's victory in the Triple Crown. After the trauma of Vietnam and Watergate, she said, Secretariat had "restored her faith in humanity." I like to think Reagan was the Secretariat of the eighties. - Garry Trudeau From tsarren at alyra.org Sat Aug 17 15:20:47 2002 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Kat) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 17:20:47 -0500 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length Message-ID: <20020817222047.GB19109@galadriel.alyra.org> On Sat, Aug 17, 2002 at 12:35:14PM -0700, magical truthsaying bastard roney! wrote: > Sean writes: > Steve said: > > >a weapon originally developed to > > >kill people in plate armour, but gradually modified as armour fell out of > > >use because too many armored men were being killed by assholes with > > >rapiers. > I always assumed it was assholes with guns > > No, this is definitely pre-guns. The English longbow could punch > through plate armor. Hrm. I talked to a professor at GenCon who was giving a talk on pre-firearms era arms and armor. I asked him, "can arrows penetrate plate armor?" His answer: "If they hit the plate square-on, yes. If they strike at an angle, even a slight one, they're more likely to glance off." To me it seems likely that this is true, but I have no sources to cite. That being said, I'm still not clear to what extent the crossbow (outlawed at some point by... the Pope? not sure... because it was so effective against heavy armor [so I have to ask here - was the crossbow really more effective than the longbow because of its massive draw weights, or some other factor?]) firearms, and rapiers each influenced the outphasing of heavy plate armor. Tsarren From spenn at shaw.ca Sat Aug 17 15:30:46 2002 From: spenn at shaw.ca (Sean) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 15:30:46 -0700 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length References: <20020817222047.GB19109@galadriel.alyra.org> Message-ID: <00a401c2463d$bb5897d0$883e5418@dontbenosy> Kat said: > That being said, I'm still not clear to what extent the crossbow (outlawed > at some point by... the Pope? not sure... because it was so effective > against heavy armor [so I have to ask here - was the crossbow really more > effective than the longbow because of its massive draw weights, or some > other factor?]) firearms, and rapiers each influenced the outphasing of > heavy plate armor. I read somewhere that some archbishop, after watching a demonstration of the crossbow, declared that it was the most terrible weapon on earth and that it would end warfare completely. 640k ought to be enough for anyone, right? From davids at kithrup.com Sat Aug 17 15:55:33 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 15:55:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816174004.00ac2120@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: >But David, that is exactly the point. I cannot make an elegant point of >how vague a character is being unless he has the ability to precise and >doesn't take it. > Then are we really disagreeing about anything? Let me restate how I see things, and you can tell me what part you disagree with. The fact that some words have become ambiguous [1] and some vague phrases have come into vogue [2] doesn't really bother me because the clear and precise words *are still there*. Ultimately, the decision to use a vague or specific phrase is a personal one, and it's not really the fault of the *words* that people use them that way. In addition, I can certainly understand how some people might *want* to be vague on certain matters, because those matters are very private to them, or because they aren't quite sure themselves how things stand. For example, the hypothetical person saying "Susan and I are in a relationship" might use that phrase because the speaker doesn't want to say anything more on the matter, or because he might not be 100 percent sure of Susan's feelings on the matter and doesn't want to divulge that uncertainty. But if he *is* sure, *and* does want to communicate the nature of that vague term, he can surely be specific if he wants to: "Susan and I are soulmates with a deep and loving connection" or "Susan and I are engaged to be married" or "Susan and I are just fuckbuddies but we have no deeper emotional attachment" or "Susan and I meet once a week to play chess and drink coffee and natter on about current events and grammatical minutiae. We don't have sex." But it's the speaker's choice, so I don't feel bothered by his lack of specificity. The only reason I would have to feel annoyed is because something is being obscured that's important to me (such as if I were interested in Susan). And there I can agree with you - if someone is *supposed* to be communicating something important, and is using a lot of vague words and phrases, I would be annoyed *at that person*, since he's obviously hiding information that I want or need to know. This contributes to why politicians so often find themselves despised [3]. But again, I'd be annoyed at the person for choosing to *use* those words and phrases, not the words themselves. If this vagueness was in writing, it would have to be a damn good story to keep holding my interest - but it would be the writer's fault for deliberately being vague, not the exact words the writer chose. Finally, I don't think the language is weakened by the examples you've given. Yes, there are some blunt tools out there, and some sharp tools may have been slightly blunted by giving them an additional ambiguous meaning, but there have always been such things - and the sharp tools are still there for everyone to use. [4] There. I hope that was clear enough. [1] I was going to write "vaguified", but I decided that I didn't want to piss you off. [2] I like alliteration. [3] Can you say "Slick Willie"? [4] Afterthought: Or are they? The recent spate of archaic grammar reminds me that we no longer distinguish between single and plural second person, for example. Although I note that certain phrases have been coined in certain dialects to re-create that distinction - I am thinking of "you all" or "y'all" in the Southern U.S. Is that what you see happening with the vaguification [5] problem? Wouldst thou mayhap support the resurrection of the archaic forms? [5] Oops, sorry. From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Sat Aug 17 16:30:33 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 18:30:33 -0500 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) References: <20020817035931.GA16523@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <3D5E723B.249BFFBE@attbi.com> <005a01c24633$4f303130$883e5418@dontbenosy> Message-ID: <3D5EDC99.27E77DF5@attbi.com> Sean said: > Our language IS closely linked to how we think. Or actually, the reverse. How we think is dictated by language. If you think in Chinese you will have a different perspective from one who thinks in English. > (God, this is fun!) Samuel Delany (I think!) wrote a book called Babel 17--damn good book--in which the bad guys invented a language that contained no "I". Without "I", there cannot be "you"; without a concept of "I" and "you" . . . well, let's just say the poor guy grew up pretty strange. Great novel. Mia From davids at kithrup.com Sat Aug 17 17:04:56 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 17:04:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Map(s) from YENDI Message-ID: In the paperback of YENDI (but not in the reprint in THE BOOK OF JHEREG) are a couple of maps of subsections of Andrilankha; specifically, Wellock's Area & Vlad's Area. A year ago, I scanned the image in, and asked SKZB if it would be OK to post them to a website. He agreed, but I dropped the matter because I wanted to clean them up a bit first, and then I sort-of forgot about it, being distracted by other things. At any rate, I found the diskette I put them on, and I cleaned up the uglier scanning shadows, and I now have a nice clean image. Since I don't have a Brust website myself, I offer it to anyone here who wants it. Hopefully, someone with a website will put the map on the web. From mam at theworld.com Sat Aug 17 17:48:16 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 20:48:16 -0400 Subject: Evolving language In-Reply-To: <20020817210923.0279626E27@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Aug 2002, magical truthsaying bastard roney! wrote: #Mark A Mandel writes: # If thou seekest consistency in thy speech, conclude instead by saying # not "your tits", but "thy tits". # #Don't tell me, tell Neil Gaiman... Uhhhh... damn, and I was just rereading that one the other day, after it'd been years buried in a box! Hob's epilogue to "The Wake", at a RenFair. I knew it sounded familiar. See http://world.std.com/~mam/filks/MenOfGoodFortune.html -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname http://world.std.com/~mam/filk.html From mam at theworld.com Sat Aug 17 17:51:03 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 20:51:03 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 17 Aug 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: #Mark A Mandel writes: #> I think this is where we came in: whether or not "thinking" can be done #> without words. If you define it away, then (ISTM) you're opting out of #> the discussion. #> #> When I visualize what would happen to the space in the car trunk if I #> put THIS suitcase THERE, turned on its side, and then slid THAT box in #> next to it in SUCH-AND-SUCH orientation and laid THAT bag on top of the #> box, slipping it in under the overhang JUST SO... I'm *thinking*, by any #> definition I care to use, but the content of my thinking is largely #> visual, partly kinesthetic, and only slightly verbal, if at all. Would #> you call that "non-verbal reasoning"? Why would you not call it #> "thinking"? # #The color matching thing, I simply don't *know*. Too little of it #takes place anywhere I can see it to have any idea how it's done, so I #have no opinion if it's thought or what. By one definition everything #taking place in the human head is thought, but I suspect that of being #too broad to be useful. # #And I think if you can't justify your conclusion, that you haven't #achieved "thought", or at least you can't *show* that you've achieved #thought. A guess that happens to be right isn't "thought" as I #understand it. AFAIR, you haven't defined thought, except to say that as you use the word it requires (internal) verbalization. What do you demand as proof that I've "achieved thought"? The process of mental manipulation of shapes that I describe above is generally successful, at a rate well above chance. Do you demand that verbal "thought" be generally successful? Please, give me a definition I can work with to answer your challenge, or else give off. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Sat Aug 17 17:53:17 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 20:53:17 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <005a01c24633$4f303130$883e5418@dontbenosy> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Aug 2002, Sean wrote: #'Twas brillig, #and the slithey toves did gyre and and gimble in the wabe #All mimsy were the borogroves #And the mome raths out gabe # #Lewis Carrol - from "Jabberwocky". (from memory too, so please don't get #upset if it's not perfect) # #I've heard these words called "port_man_teau" -- spelled wrongly <= ; ) no #doubt -- meaning they are nonsensical combination words - slithey - maybe a #combination of slimey and slither (we can only guess; Carrol doesn't explain #his words). "Portmanteau" is a Victorian word for a large suitcase; from French, literally, a coat-carrier. IIRC Humpty Dumpty tells Alice that these words pack up two meanings in them, just as you pack things into a portmanteau. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Sat Aug 17 17:56:53 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 20:56:53 -0400 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length In-Reply-To: <2F451885.12D6588B.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: #In a message dated Sat, 17 Aug 2002 2:14:19 PM Eastern #Standard Time, FelixEisen at aol.com writes: # #> dammit, I forget Noish-Pa's actual name; Kelly says it at #> one point. # #Actually, he doesn't. I remember specifically looking for #that last time I read _Teckla_. Teldra doesn't use it in #_Phoenix_ either, nor Cawti at the end of _Yendi_. We just #plain don't know his name yet. Kelly, or somebody, refers to Noish-pa as "Taltos", which we know anyway is Vlad's patronymic, which in Steve's use means a surname passed down >from the father. See discussion at http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/names.html#Surnames -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From tyan at twcny.rr.com Sat Aug 17 18:02:06 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: 17 Aug 2002 21:02:06 -0400 Subject: OT: November (was Sethra Lavode...) In-Reply-To: <224AD1CD.5E935F6A.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <224AD1CD.5E935F6A.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: [Huge, silent snips by TKY] Gaertk at aol.com writes: > >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/dvd/B000067DNF/reviews/qid=1029538178/sr=2-2/ref=sr_2_2/102-0978205-5989766 > > And is there any way to shorten Amazon's links? You can shorten the URL for an item that Amazon sells. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000067DNF [1]^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ [2]^^^^^^^^ [3]^^^^^^^^^^^^ [1] Well, duh. (Except: you might be able to omit the www., as apparently you can with google.) [2] Amazon's server/script engine (term?) is called "obidos". [3] Amazon has what it calls ASINs (amazon identification numbers). For dead-tree books, ASINs coincide with ISBNs. I'm not sure how Amazon creates ASINs for other things, including DVDs, books on tape, and CDs. - tky From books at bofh.com Sat Aug 17 18:31:54 2002 From: books at bofh.com (books at bofh.com) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 18:31:54 -0700 (MST) Subject: Evolving language In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sat, 17 Aug 2002 16:56:37 -0400" References: <01KLELQL5ZWO0013MG@chud.net> Message-ID: <01KLEXA70GYK0013MG@chud.net> >On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 books at bofh.com wrote: >#>very particular sort of meaning. But programming languages are >#>very, very strictly defined. Unlike natural language, programming >#>languages very rarely possess symbols that have simultaneous >#>meanings depending on the context. How does a compiler handle >#>ambiguity? It doesn't. We define the rules so there is no ># >#Counterexample: ># >#sendmail.cf -> $: >#(as well as any number of other $ variables) >Is that a counterexample? Variables have, well, variable meanings, but >in any context -- at runtime -- only one of them will be in effect. >I'm putting this as a question rather than an assertion because I don't >know the language of this construction. But am I right here? I don't believe so. Sendmail is an ugly beast, and it's configuration file is, I believe, in it's own right a programming language. For instance, people have implemented calculators, and even the Towers of Hanoi in the sendmail configuration file. The example I'm thinking of (which doesn't make sense in context, but was valid when I was playing with this was): $: $: $: In which all three $:'s meant different things. -Jot From Lydy at demesne.com Sat Aug 17 18:44:51 2002 From: Lydy at demesne.com (Lydia Nickerson) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 20:44:51 -0500 Subject: Evolving language In-Reply-To: <20020817091145.55182.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20020817091145.55182.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 2:11 AM -0700 8/17/02, Caliann the Elf wrote: >I have to agree that the English Language is large, ponderous and unweildy. I don't agree. I think it is complex, elegant, and beautiful. However, I only speak English, so I'm biased. > It could stand to be whittled down into something more efficient. In a practical sense, that has already happened. Very few people use a large vocabulary on a regular basis. The word most commonly in use are only a fraction of the total words available. I don't see any reason to dispense with the ones that are used less frequently. They're terribly useful as reserve ammunition, in my opinion. As a discussion becomes more technical, more precise, it starts using less commonly used but more precise terms. >When was the last time anyone used the word "druthers" as a synonym >for "choice"? Actually, when was the last time anyone used the word >"druthers" when it was not precluded by the words "Give my..." or >"If I had my..."? Sometime in the last week, I expect. I happen to like the word druther, myself. If I had my druthers, people wouldn't look at me like I'd just sprouted tentacles when I used it, but what can you do? > >Besides, I am rather fond of the word "squick". Oh, me too. >There is a point to this, which is that I DO feel that English can >use a lot of help. It could be streamlined into what is actually >USED. Betcha it can't. How on earth would you go about getting other people to accept some new standards of what words can and can't be used? Language is not static, it's a process, and a process we don't even understand all that well. >I'd like a dictionary that didn't have the name of a piece of >harness used for draft horses in the 1200's. A "modern use in >vocabulary" dictionary. There are lots of them. How small does it need to be? And why do you resent the extra words? Seems to me that one of my collegiate dictionaries only claims 20,000 definitions, which is a pretty small percentage of the total words in the English language. > >As for Shakespear, I adore Shakespear, but the language has changed >in many ways since then. I am sure thee knowest of what I speak, >forsooth. What amazes me about Shakespeare is how well I can understand language that is 600 years old. I've been reading the Patrick O'Brian books, lately. They're written using early 19th century English, and it, too, is very diffferent from the English spoken today. I have a copy of the 11th Edition of the Enclyclopaedia Britannica, which is written in fine Victorian prose. In structure and vocabulary, it is quite unlike modern English, but it is delightfully comprehensible and a joy to read. The fact that I, who am but lightly educated, having only a high school diploma and a couple of college classes, can easily work my way through a Victorian sentence the length of an octavo page with only a moderate amount of effort, and that I can enjoy Shakespeare needing little more than footnotes and an occasional use of a good dictionary, proves to me that English is not inefficient and ponderous, but rather it is flexible and remarkably resilient, even when left in the untutored hands of someone like myself. -- Lydy Nickerson lydy at demesne.com lydy at lydy.com Dulciculi Aliquorum From meersan at mn.astound.net Sat Aug 17 19:50:40 2002 From: meersan at mn.astound.net (Melissa Fitzgerald) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 21:50:40 -0500 Subject: Evolving language In-Reply-To: <01KLEXA70GYK0013MG@chud.net> References: <"Your message dated Sat, 17 Aug 2002 16:56:37 -0400" <01KLELQL5ZWO0013MG@chud.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020817215040.007bf3a0@astound.net> At 06:31 PM 8/17/02 -0700, books at bofh.com wrote: >I don't believe so. Sendmail is an ugly beast, and it's configuration >file is, I believe, in it's own right a programming language. For instance, >people have implemented calculators, and even the Towers of Hanoi in >the sendmail configuration file. > >The example I'm thinking of (which doesn't make sense in context, >but was valid when I was playing with this was): > >$: $: $: > >In which all three $:'s meant different things. A variable in a programming language can be likened to a pronoun in English. "You" may have any number of values depending on the speaker, his audience and his situation. It may even have different meanings depending on its position in a sentence. I intended to refer more to statements such as the following, quoted >from http://www.vuse.vanderbilt.edu/~jgray/funny.html#LIAR "I am pleased to say that this candidate is a former colleague of mine." This statement has at least two equally valid interpretations. The speaker could fully intend to express both of them simultaneously. There is an inherent ambiguity here which has never been approximated in computer programming languages. I believe the example you furnished does not quite achieve the same level of complexity. Obviously a program statement like $: $: $: looks very ambiguous to a _human_ reader. But to sendmail, its meaning is quite clear. Regardless of sendmail's semantic brilliance (or lack thereof--it's quite a beast!), ultimately, there are very concrete rules that determine how sendmail parses its config file. If there _were_ any ambiguity, sendmail would puke out an error message. I find it interesting that some programming languages, like Haskell or Miranda, are "lazy" in that they don't evaluate an expression until its value is required. So you can finally define infinite data data structures, like: evens = [2,4..] although no computer can actually represent all even numbers. -- meersan From frank at exit.com Sat Aug 17 21:23:38 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 21:23:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Evolving language In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200208180423.g7I4Nc00016900@realtime.exit.com> Lydia Nickerson wrote: > What amazes me about Shakespeare is how well I can understand > language that is 600 years old. [...] > [...] I can enjoy Shakespeare needing little more than > footnotes and an occasional use of a good dictionary, proves to me > that English is not inefficient and ponderous, but rather it is > flexible and remarkably resilient, even when left in the untutored > hands of someone like myself. Well, Shakespeare was just a genius with the English language. My wife and I went to see a live performance of Much Ado About Nothing when we were in Manhattan over Memorial Day; my wife is Chinese and although she speaks English pretty well, she has difficulty understanding most movies and television shows. I was a tad concerned that she would be lost by the language of Shakespeare, as well, but I needn't have worried. As accessible as that play is, she had no problem at all understanding virtually everything. That says a lot about the writing. (It didn't hurt that the venue was almost microscopic, as well; we were perhaps twenty feet from the actors.) -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From mtiller at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 18 03:17:46 2002 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:17:46 +0100 Subject: Evolving language In-Reply-To: <01KLEXA70GYK0013MG@chud.net> Message-ID: <000501c246a0$7f74fc00$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> PL\1 uses the "=" symbol differently depending on context. It's either an assignment statement e.g. A=1 or it can be used in an If test e.g. If A=1 then B else C. That's assuming I've remembered it correctly, it's 15 years since I last used PL/1 :-) Mark Tiller. "To iterate is human, to recurse divine" From spenn at shaw.ca Sun Aug 18 08:42:26 2002 From: spenn at shaw.ca (Sean) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 08:42:26 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) References: <20020817035931.GA16523@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <3D5E723B.249BFFBE@attbi.com> <005a01c24633$4f303130$883e5418@dontbenosy> <3D5EDC99.27E77DF5@attbi.com> Message-ID: <004401c246cd$da526c70$883e5418@dontbenosy> > Sean said: > Our language IS closely linked to how we think. Or actually, the > reverse. > How we think is dictated by language. If you think in Chinese you will > have > a different perspective from one who thinks in English. Mia said: > (God, this is fun!) > > Samuel Delany (I think!) wrote a book called Babel 17--damn good > book--in which the bad guys invented a language that contained no "I". > Without "I", there cannot be "you"; without a concept of "I" and "you" . > . . well, let's just say the poor guy grew up pretty strange. Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis. Generally out of vogue nowadays (as am I!). The Delany book is circa 1960s, the hypothesis the late 20s. They took it a bit far, stating that language determines thought, whereas today most believe it only influences thought. http://venus.va.com.au/suggestion/sapir.html From Starshadw at aol.com Sun Aug 18 09:01:47 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:01:47 EDT Subject: Map(s) from YENDI Message-ID: <196.bb05450.2a911eeb@aol.com> I'd be happy to put them up on the RPG website. >:) Stacy From Gaertk at aol.com Sun Aug 18 09:04:22 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:04:22 -0400 Subject: List problems? Message-ID: <52407075.7A1C69BB.00048EA6@aol.com> This past 24 hours I've been noticing a lot of replies to posts that have not yet shown up on my server. Checking the web archive (sorted by date, starting with message 2000), I've found 8 of the 19 most recent messages didn't come through[1]: 00: Re: Evolving language (Gaertk.aol.com) 01: Re: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length (Scott Ingram) 03: Cover muffs (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) 05: Re: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length (Sean) 06: Re: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) (David Silberstein) 07: Re: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) (Mia McDavid) 14: Re: Evolving language (books.bofh.com) 15: Re: Evolving language (Lydia Nickerson) [1] I may be mistaken on a couple; the list software is displaying different values for Sender and Subject than my software. Can the software be changed to archive messages by *actual* subject instead of what the thread started with? --KG From grapawy at yahoo.com Sun Aug 18 10:49:53 2002 From: grapawy at yahoo.com (Gregory Rapawy) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 10:49:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reason and passion (was: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020818174953.83595.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Dyer-Bennet wrote: [...] > I do think that's going outside the province of > intellectual debates. *How much* somebody cares > about something *in an intellectual debate* is > completely irrelevant, except tactically. The > truth of a belief is not increased by believing it > more passionately. And intellectual debate is about > *truth*. > > Obviously, many issues that we debate with people in > day-to-day life are not issues best settled in a > purely intellectual debate. I disagree, although it is possible that your qualifier "purely" may remove my grounds for disagreement by narrowing the breadth of your claim to a subset of what I would generally consider "intellectual debate." Taking your broader claim ("*How much* somebody cares about something *in an intellectual debate* is completely irrelevant, except tactically."), I think that in certain areas of debate the strength of the participants' beliefs in certain emotional (or, perhaps, value) propositions is relevant to the truth they are seeking to ascertain. Examples include political philosophy, rhetoric, and aesthetics. First, in political philosophy, the strengths of our beliefs in certain propositions of value are, at least within some methodologies, the raw data from which we construct theories of the good or the right. I am thinking here of Rawls's concept of reflective equilibrium, in which any value proposition may be revised at any point after reasoned consideration; but all others are taken as given while consideration is given. Other methodologies insist that we proceed a priori (some utilitarians fall into this category, as does the Kantian tradition) but whichever side of that debate one takes, I do not think it is fair to say that only the latter are engaged in intellectual debate. Second, in rhetoric, the goal is to find the argument that the ultimate listeners (not the present companion with whom one is having the intellectual debate about rhetoric) will find persuasive, which will almost certainly depend on the strength of their beliefs in various propositions. The debaters therefore, again, may use their own beliefs as data on the assumption that the ultimate listeners share them, or perhaps with the intent of deriving the listeners' beliefs >from their own by adjusting for known differences in attitude. (This resembles your caveat about tactics; but here the tactical, or strategic proposition, is itself the truth the debaters seek to ascertain.) Third, in aesthetics, I suspect -- although I have little knowledge of formal, as opposed to casual, aesthetics, and so may be completely mistaken -- that even quite sophisticated arguments about what is beautiful (which I think is a kind of truth) may need to rely on beliefs about what is good or right. It may be that you will simply respond that these are therefore not subjects of *purely* intellectual debate. Then, however, I would say that purely intellectual debate, within your definition, is quite rare and restricted to a few technical subjects such as mathematics and computer science. And even there (I am neither a mathematician nor a programmer) is it really true that some aesthetic propositions -- and therefore ultimately matters of belief -- do not creep in? -- Greg __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com From rick at 404.978.org Sun Aug 18 13:54:09 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 16:54:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length In-Reply-To: <15f.126c2c22.2a8ffa8b@aol.com> References: <15f.126c2c22.2a8ffa8b@aol.com> Message-ID: <2915.192.168.1.1.1029704049.squirrel@404.978.org> > ... dammit, I forget Noish-Pa's actual name; Kelly says it at one > point. Having just reread this yesterday, I believe Kelly only refers to Noish-Pa as "Taltos". -Rick From rick at 404.978.org Sun Aug 18 14:06:27 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 17:06:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length In-Reply-To: <3D5EAF0B.7605D8A3@earthlink.net> References: <15f.126c2c22.2a8ffa8b@aol.com> <3D5EAF0B.7605D8A3@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <2976.192.168.1.1.1029704787.squirrel@404.978.org> Jose Marquez wrote: > FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: >> >> Believe it or not, I got the impression that Vlad was, well ... barely >> tolerable as a sorcerer, passingly competent as a witch, and pretty >> good as a fencer -- but he clearly wasn't anywhere near the level of >> skill with the latter two as his grandfather. I also got the >> impression that Vlad was too, > > I would argue that Vlad is more than competent as a witch. Teleporting > the blood of a goddess from his apartment to the Paths of the Dead is, > in my opinion, an extraordinary feat; the resulting spell is one that > should put him on par with his grandfather. Agreed. Add to that his ability to successfully cast a modified spell originally designed to summon(?) a familiar *DURING* a swordfight in which he was doing a passable (albeit slowly failing) job of holding at bay a significantly superior opponent. Further consider: Noish-Pa told Vlad in _Jhereg_ that he could teach him nothing else of witchcraft, and to increase his abilities as a witch, Vlad would need to get a familiar. If we consider Noish-Pa to be an accomplished witch of great skill who has taught Vlad everything he can (and we take it as fact that Vlad has actually *learned* all that Noish-Pa has taught him of witchcraft), then I think it's fair to say that Vlad is an accomplished witch. -Rick From rick at 404.978.org Sun Aug 18 14:13:55 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 17:13:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: November (was Sethra Lavode...) In-Reply-To: <224AD1CD.5E935F6A.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <224AD1CD.5E935F6A.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <3047.192.168.1.1.1029705235.squirrel@404.978.org> > In a message dated Fri, 16 Aug 2002 5:53:19 PM Eastern > Standard Time, "Davis, Iain E." writes: > And is there any way to shorten Amazon's links? I know all > the tricks for linking Usenet articles through Google, but > nothing about what is and is not neccessary in Amazon links. > > --KG There's a good way to shorten *any* link: http://www.makeashorterlink.com/ or, the shorter version, *grin* http://www.shorterlink.com/ -Rick From rick at 404.978.org Sun Aug 18 14:17:08 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 17:17:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Evolving language In-Reply-To: References: <20020817195611.25E5726E26@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <3097.192.168.1.1.1029705428.squirrel@404.978.org> > On Sat, 17 Aug 2002, magical truthsaying bastard roney! wrote: > > #I have no joke here, i just like saying, "Thou look'st passing fair, > #milady, excepst thou manglest the Queen's good English and your tits > #are hanging out." > > If thou seekest consistency in thy speech, conclude instead by saying > not "your tits", but "thy tits". Ah, but I rather appreciate the "when in Rome" or "plank in thy own eye" effect of Gaiman's version... a coarsening of the tongue as the subject grows more coarse... :) -Rick From davids at kithrup.com Sun Aug 18 15:36:04 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 15:36:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: November (was Sethra Lavode...) In-Reply-To: <3047.192.168.1.1.1029705235.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Aug 2002, Rick Castello wrote: > > There's a good way to shorten *any* link: > > http://www.makeashorterlink.com/ > > or, the shorter version, *grin* > > http://www.shorterlink.com/ > Even shorter: http://tinyurl.com/ From matthew at infodancer.org Sun Aug 18 17:13:31 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 19:13:31 -0500 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length In-Reply-To: <2976.192.168.1.1.1029704787.squirrel@404.978.org> References: <15f.126c2c22.2a8ffa8b@aol.com> <3D5EAF0B.7605D8A3@earthlink.net> <2976.192.168.1.1.1029704787.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: <20020819001331.GD12111@infodancer.org> On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 05:06:27PM -0400, Rick Castello wrote: > Further consider: Noish-Pa told Vlad in _Jhereg_ that he could > teach him nothing else of witchcraft, and to increase his > abilities as a witch, Vlad would need to get a familiar. > > If we consider Noish-Pa to be an accomplished witch of great > skill who has taught Vlad everything he can (and we take it as > fact that Vlad has actually *learned* all that Noish-Pa has > taught him of witchcraft), then I think it's fair to say that > Vlad is an accomplished witch. While I agree that Vlad is an accomplished witch, we can't assume that he is on an equal level with Noish-pa just because Noish-pa says he can't teach him anything else. In effect, that statement means that Vlad has finished his apprenticeship as a witch, and has to complete his initiation (obtain a familiar) and go out on his own. There are two ways to take this -- as a journeyman period, prior to becoming a master witch, or as a graduation straight to master witch. Since Vlad is offered a half-interest in Noish-pa's shop, I think we can discard the journeyman possibility. However, being a "master witch" doesn't make him equal to Noish-pa. Neither of them are students or children, and that is most likely all that that comment refers to. Vlad needs to gain experience on his own to mature in witchcraft. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Sun Aug 18 17:30:52 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 20:30:52 -0400 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length References: <15f.126c2c22.2a8ffa8b@aol.com> <3D5EAF0B.7605D8A3@earthlink.net> <2976.192.168.1.1.1029704787.squirrel@404.978.org> <20020819001331.GD12111@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <3D603C3C.70A3353D@earthlink.net> Matthew Hunter wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 05:06:27PM -0400, Rick Castello wrote: > > Further consider: Noish-Pa told Vlad in _Jhereg_ that he could > > teach him nothing else of witchcraft, and to increase his > > abilities as a witch, Vlad would need to get a familiar. > > > > If we consider Noish-Pa to be an accomplished witch of great > > skill who has taught Vlad everything he can (and we take it as > > fact that Vlad has actually *learned* all that Noish-Pa has > > taught him of witchcraft), then I think it's fair to say that > > Vlad is an accomplished witch. > > While I agree that Vlad is an accomplished witch, we can't assume > that he is on an equal level with Noish-pa just because Noish-pa > says he can't teach him anything else. I think there is more evidence of Vlad's mastery of witchcraft in addition to things Noish-pa says. The spell I mentioned previously, which entailed the teleport of the vial of blood from his apartment to the Paths of the Dead, as well as summoning Rocza and his ability to use Morrolan's necromantic gates to get himself to Verra, all come to mind. But I think this places Vlad on a higher level as an improvisational witch, where he uses techniques closer to sorcery to channel his power (using witchcraft without ritual, in essence the energy of his self, to throw a knife past Loraan's sorcerous defenses is another example). Noish-pa is better at the research-theoretical witchcraft, evidenced by his ability to step into Morrolan's lab and come up with a charm to prevent the teleportation sickness humans feel. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From dd-b at dd-b.net Sun Aug 18 18:47:09 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 18 Aug 2002 20:47:09 -0500 Subject: Map(s) from YENDI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David Silberstein writes: > In the paperback of YENDI (but not in the reprint in THE BOOK OF > JHEREG) are a couple of maps of subsections of Andrilankha; > specifically, Wellock's Area & Vlad's Area. > > A year ago, I scanned the image in, and asked SKZB if it would be > OK to post them to a website. He agreed, but I dropped the matter > because I wanted to clean them up a bit first, and then I sort-of > forgot about it, being distracted by other things. > > At any rate, I found the diskette I put them on, and I cleaned up the > uglier scanning shadows, and I now have a nice clean image. > > Since I don't have a Brust website myself, I offer it to anyone here > who wants it. Hopefully, someone with a website will put the map on > the web. Be happy to have them for dragaera.info! -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Sun Aug 18 18:49:04 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 18 Aug 2002 20:49:04 -0500 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mark A Mandel writes: > On 17 Aug 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > #Mark A Mandel writes: > > #> I think this is where we came in: whether or not "thinking" can be done > #> without words. If you define it away, then (ISTM) you're opting out of > #> the discussion. > #> > #> When I visualize what would happen to the space in the car trunk if I > #> put THIS suitcase THERE, turned on its side, and then slid THAT box in > #> next to it in SUCH-AND-SUCH orientation and laid THAT bag on top of the > #> box, slipping it in under the overhang JUST SO... I'm *thinking*, by any > #> definition I care to use, but the content of my thinking is largely > #> visual, partly kinesthetic, and only slightly verbal, if at all. Would > #> you call that "non-verbal reasoning"? Why would you not call it > #> "thinking"? > # > #The color matching thing, I simply don't *know*. Too little of it > #takes place anywhere I can see it to have any idea how it's done, so I > #have no opinion if it's thought or what. By one definition everything > #taking place in the human head is thought, but I suspect that of being > #too broad to be useful. > # > #And I think if you can't justify your conclusion, that you haven't > #achieved "thought", or at least you can't *show* that you've achieved > #thought. A guess that happens to be right isn't "thought" as I > #understand it. > > AFAIR, you haven't defined thought, except to say that as you use the > word it requires (internal) verbalization. What do you demand as proof > that I've "achieved thought"? The process of mental manipulation of > shapes that I describe above is generally successful, at a rate well > above chance. Do you demand that verbal "thought" be generally > successful? Please, give me a definition I can work with to answer your > challenge, or else give off. I don't think we're actually disagreeing (yet; but there's hope). Thought is the conscious mental manipulation of symbols to achieve a desired result. It doesn't have to be successful, but you do have to know what you're doing. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Sun Aug 18 18:50:48 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 18 Aug 2002 20:50:48 -0500 Subject: List problems? In-Reply-To: <52407075.7A1C69BB.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <52407075.7A1C69BB.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: Gaertk at aol.com writes: > This past 24 hours I've been noticing a lot of replies to > posts that have not yet shown up on my server. Checking the > web archive (sorted by date, starting with message 2000), > I've found 8 of the 19 most recent messages didn't come > through[1]: I suspect some messages failed to reach individuals (at random for all practical purposes) because I screwed up the mail queue briefly the other day. > [1] I may be mistaken on a couple; the list software is > displaying different values for Sender and Subject than my > software. Can the software be changed to archive messages > by *actual* subject instead of what the thread started with? Not really. I'm not interested in diverging from the standard package, and I actually like having the real thread structure preserved. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Sun Aug 18 18:59:00 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 18 Aug 2002 20:59:00 -0500 Subject: Reason and passion (was: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity) In-Reply-To: <20020818174953.83595.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20020818174953.83595.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Gregory Rapawy writes: > --- David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > [...] > > I do think that's going outside the province of > > intellectual debates. *How much* somebody cares > > about something *in an intellectual debate* is > > completely irrelevant, except tactically. The > > truth of a belief is not increased by believing it > > more passionately. And intellectual debate is about > > > *truth*. > > > > Obviously, many issues that we debate with people in > > day-to-day life are not issues best settled in a > > purely intellectual debate. > > I disagree, although it is possible that your > qualifier "purely" may remove my grounds for > disagreement by narrowing the breadth of your claim to > a subset of what I would generally consider > "intellectual debate." In deciding how to spend a vacation with a partner, the issue of the partner's personal preferences pretty much have to come into it. No amount of argument about how they *should* prefer something else is likely to be beneficial to reaching an agreement. In broader terms, if other people you need to interact with hold positions you view as irrational, intellectual debate leads to a deadlock. Sometimes you may wish to implement the deadlock, by avoiding associating with those people, but other times you will prefer to not do that. > Taking your broader claim ("*How much* somebody cares > about something *in an intellectual debate* is > completely irrelevant, except tactically."), I think > that in certain areas of debate the strength of the > participants' beliefs in certain emotional (or, > perhaps, value) propositions is relevant to the truth > they are seeking to ascertain. Examples include > political philosophy, rhetoric, and aesthetics. Well, for your particular benefit, I will disagree *passionately* and *vehemently* with this position. Maybe it'll help, who knows? To me, these are precisely the subjects that *must* be considered rationally and not emotionally. Well, except for aesthetics, which are entirely subjective anyway. > First, in political philosophy, the strengths of our > beliefs in certain propositions of value are, at least > within some methodologies, the raw data from which we > construct theories of the good or the right. I am > thinking here of Rawls's concept of reflective > equilibrium, in which any value proposition may be > revised at any point after reasoned consideration; but > all others are taken as given while consideration is > given. Other methodologies insist that we proceed a > priori (some utilitarians fall into this category, as > does the Kantian tradition) but whichever side of that > debate one takes, I do not think it is fair to say > that only the latter are engaged in intellectual > debate. Statistically, how strongly people feel about something is relevant to policy certainly. I see that as completely unrelated to the act of debate, though. > Second, in rhetoric, the goal is to find the argument > that the ultimate listeners (not the present companion > with whom one is having the intellectual debate about > rhetoric) will find persuasive, which will almost > certainly depend on the strength of their beliefs in > various propositions. The debaters therefore, again, > may use their own beliefs as data on the assumption > that the ultimate listeners share them, or perhaps > with the intent of deriving the listeners' beliefs > from their own by adjusting for known differences in > attitude. (This resembles your caveat about tactics; > but here the tactical, or strategic proposition, is > itself the truth the debaters seek to ascertain.) Rhetoric is in direct opposition to intellectual debate; rhetoric is the attempt to *convince* by tactical trickery. Intellectual debate is the attempt to *demonstrate* by *logic*. > Third, in aesthetics, I suspect -- although I have > little knowledge of formal, as opposed to casual, > aesthetics, and so may be completely mistaken -- that > even quite sophisticated arguments about what is > beautiful (which I think is a kind of truth) may need > to rely on beliefs about what is good or right. As I said, aesthetics are subjective. If one attempts to make an axiomatic formal system of aesthetics one could have intellectual debates with it, but they'd have little to do with how anybody liked a piece of art. > It may be that you will simply respond that these are > therefore not subjects of *purely* intellectual > debate. Then, however, I would say that purely > intellectual debate, within your definition, is quite > rare and restricted to a few technical subjects such > as mathematics and computer science. And even there > (I am neither a mathematician nor a programmer) is it > really true that some aesthetic propositions -- and > therefore ultimately matters of belief -- do not creep > in? Matters of belief certainly come up, and need to be recognized as such. Sometimes you can change beliefs by showing how they are wrong, other times you cannot. People often fall short of intellectual debate in discussing politics, for example, but that's a personal failing, not an inherent difficulty. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From mneme at io.com Sun Aug 18 19:41:36 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 21:41:36 -0500 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816175823.00ac08b0@localhost> References: <3D5D3E91@webmailbackup> <5.1.0.14.0.20020816175823.00ac08b0@localhost> Message-ID: <15712.23264.772353.485389@hagbard.io.com> Steven Brust writes: >At 01:37 PM 8/16/2002 -0500, Brad wrote: >>seem to execute an absurd number of stop cuts, which makes me think >>that Steve was a saber fencer with fast hands, well, faster than your >>average saber fencer. (What is funny, to me, is that Noish-Pa seems >*sigh* You people are too smart for me. Maybe I'll switch to writing about >spaceships. But, but...swords are more -fun-! -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From rick at 404.978.org Sun Aug 18 20:31:24 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 23:31:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length In-Reply-To: <20020819001331.GD12111@infodancer.org> References: <15f.126c2c22.2a8ffa8b@aol.com> <3D5EAF0B.7605D8A3@earthlink.net> <2976.192.168.1.1.1029704787.squirrel@404.978.org> <20020819001331.GD12111@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <1525.192.168.1.1.1029727884.squirrel@404.978.org> Matthew Hunter said: > On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 05:06:27PM -0400, Rick Castello > wrote: >> Further consider: Noish-Pa told Vlad in _Jhereg_ that he could >> teach him nothing else of witchcraft, and to increase his >> abilities as a witch, Vlad would need to get a familiar. >> >> If we consider Noish-Pa to be an accomplished witch of great >> skill who has taught Vlad everything he can (and we take it as >> fact that Vlad has actually *learned* all that Noish-Pa has >> taught him of witchcraft), then I think it's fair to say that >> Vlad is an accomplished witch. > > While I agree that Vlad is an accomplished witch, we can't assume > that he is on an equal level with Noish-pa just because Noish-pa > says he can't teach him anything else. > > In effect, that statement means that Vlad has finished his > apprenticeship as a witch, and has to complete his initiation > (obtain a familiar) and go out on his own. There are two > ways to take this -- as a journeyman period, prior to > becoming a master witch, or as a graduation straight to > master witch. > > Since Vlad is offered a half-interest in Noish-pa's shop, I think > we can discard the journeyman possibility. > > However, being a "master witch" doesn't make him equal to > Noish-pa. Neither of them are students or children, and that is > most likely all that that comment refers to. Vlad needs to gain > experience on his own to mature in witchcraft. Note that at no time do I claim Vlad's talents at witchcraft are equal to or greater than those of Noish-Pa. In all else you state, we are in violent agreement. -Rick From grapawy at yahoo.com Sun Aug 18 21:16:50 2002 From: grapawy at yahoo.com (Gregory Rapawy) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 21:16:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reason and passion (was: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020819041650.22427.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Gregory Rapawy writes: [...] >> I think that in certain areas of debate the strength >> of the participants' beliefs in certain emotional >> (or, perhaps, value) propositions is relevant to the >> truth they are seeking to ascertain. Examples >> include political philosophy, rhetoric, and >> aesthetics. > Well, for your particular benefit, I will disagree > *passionately* and *vehemently* with this position. > Maybe it'll help, who knows? It will certainly have the effect of keeping the two of us interested in the conversation, although this may not promote the common welfare if everyone else on the list gets bored. > To me, these are precisely the subjects that *must* > be considered rationally and not emotionally. What is the source of that obligation? >> First, in political philosophy, the strengths of our >> beliefs in certain propositions of value are, at >> least within some methodologies, the raw data from >> which we construct theories of the good or the >> right. [...] > Statistically, how strongly people feel about > something is relevant to policy certainly. I see > that as completely unrelated to the act of debate, > though. Probably the only way to approach this point is with specific examples. That is dangerous, because there is some chance of getting sidetracked onto the merits of the political issue, and to make the point well I need to use an issue about which people have strong feelings. Take abortion. Pro-Life (PL) claims that a fetus is a person, and that an abortion is the unjustified killing of a person, morally indistinguishable from murder even though our present unjust laws draw a legal distinction. Pro-Choice (PC) responds that a fetus is not a person, but only a potential person; that it lacks certain characteristics (for example, the ability to think) by which we define, or should define, a person. PL then counters that these characteristics are also not present in some recognized people, such as people with certain disabilities or diseases, so that PC's position on abortion if accepted implies that it is also acceptable to kill these people without other justification. I'll give PL the last word for the moment. PL and PC have begun with mutually contradictory positions -- to which, I think I can assume, they are passionately attached. The argument made by PL that I have sketched is an attempt to show that PC cannot simultaneously maintain his original position (that abortion is permissible) without either being logically inconsistent, or else also adopting another position that PC presumably finds unacceptable (that euthanasia of people with certain disabilities is permissible). PC's options are either to find a different reason that justifies abortion (or perhaps to state more precisely his originally given reason), to accept PL's original position that abortion is impermissble, to accept the second position that euthanasia as described is permissble, or to reject the obligation to give consistent reasons for his decisions. PL's argument has force only because most members of our society are passionately opposed to euthanasia. If PC is Peter Singer, who advocates euthanasia, PL will get nowhere -- except perhaps to convince some members of an audience who disagree with PC on the euthanasia point. Would you consider PL's arguments illegitimate? I'm not asking whether you consider them right or wrong; my personal sympathies are with PC. (I could give a parallel set in which PC argues that PL's position of protecting potential humans implies that birth control is impermissible -- which, of course, won't work if PL is also opposed to the use of contraceptives.) I am asking only whether you think they violate the obligation that "these . . . subjects . . . *must* be considered rationally and not emotionally." (Note that PL is *not* engaging in the fallacy of the slippery slope, in which one thing is asserted to follow after another without a justification for the sequence. PL is instead arguing that the reason PC gives to justify abortion here and now also justifies euthanasia.) >> Second, in rhetoric, the goal is to find the >> argument that the ultimate listeners (not the >> present companion with whom one is having the >> intellectual debate about rhetoric) will find >> persuasive, which will almost certainly depend on >> the strength of their beliefs in various >> propositions. [...] > Rhetoric is in direct opposition to intellectual > debate; rhetoric is the attempt to *convince* by > tactical trickery. Intellectual debate is the > attempt to *demonstrate* by *logic*. Thus the distinction I drew between ultimate listeners and present companion. That is, you (present companion) and I can discuss intellectually whether the crowd to whom I will speak tomorrow (ultimate listeners) will find one tactic or another persuasive. You can demonstrate to me logically that one tactic is persuasive, or another unpersuasive. Indeed, you do me a disservice if you *persuade* me that a certain tactic will be persuasive when in fact it will not. But in making your demonstration, you are likely to draw on our shared intuitions and emotions. You might draw on those we share with the crowd; or on those that you share with the crowd and I do not, or vice versa; or even on those that we share but the crowd does not. Each has its uses. [...] > If one attempts to make an axiomatic formal system of > aesthetics one could have intellectual debates with > it, but they'd have little to do with how anybody > liked a piece of art. I am, as I said, not a student of aesthetics. But have you really never had the experience of discussing intellectually whether a certain work of art was good or bad, and why? It doesn't require an axiomatic formal system. Nor is it wholly divorced from intuitions, feelings, and emotions. Rather, it is an attempt to make some sense of one's feelings, pro or con, by comparisons between different works of art, and an attempt to draw principles from one's impressions. Sometimes it may lead to a subjective reassessment of the work. ("Oh -- I hadn't thought of it that way. Maybe the artist *was* trying to do that. That's interesting.") -- Greg __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com From Alan.Halsted at mailus.com.au Sun Aug 18 22:15:17 2002 From: Alan.Halsted at mailus.com.au (Alan Halsted) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:15:17 +1000 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquintance with their length Message-ID: Fascinating suff! Thanks! > -----Original Message----- > From: Anthony Tedjamulia [SMTP:anthony at netdocuments.com] > Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 7:37 AM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE: Swords, and a tolerable acquintance with their length > > Here's an interesting link. It concernes fencing styles, footwork and the > like. > > http://www.thehaca.com/essays/Regole.htm ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please delete the e-mail & notify the system manager. We reserve the right to scan all e-mail traffic for restricted content and to monitor all e-mail traffic in general. The views and opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender and do not necessarily reflect the views of the organisation by whom they are employed, except where the sender expressly and with authority states them to be so. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been checked for the presence of computer viruses and script. We believe but do not warrant that this e-mail is free from viruses. Responsibility for virus checking rests entirely with the recipient. 5 at 356 ********************************************************************** From dd-b at dd-b.net Sun Aug 18 22:28:29 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 19 Aug 2002 00:28:29 -0500 Subject: Reason and passion (was: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity) In-Reply-To: <20020819041650.22427.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20020819041650.22427.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Gregory Rapawy writes: > --- David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > Gregory Rapawy writes: > [...] > >> I think that in certain areas of debate the > strength > >> of the participants' beliefs in certain emotional > >> (or, perhaps, value) propositions is relevant to > the > >> truth they are seeking to ascertain. Examples > >> include political philosophy, rhetoric, and > >> aesthetics. > > Well, for your particular benefit, I will disagree > > *passionately* and *vehemently* with this position. > > Maybe it'll help, who knows? > > It will certainly have the effect of keeping the two > of us interested in the conversation, although this > may not promote the common welfare if everyone else on > the list gets bored. > > > To me, these are precisely the subjects that *must* > > be considered rationally and not emotionally. > > What is the source of that obligation? Arriving at the truth, of course. > >> First, in political philosophy, the strengths of > our > >> beliefs in certain propositions of value are, at > >> least within some methodologies, the raw data from > >> which we construct theories of the good or the > >> right. > [...] > > Statistically, how strongly people feel about > > something is relevant to policy certainly. I see > > that as completely unrelated to the act of debate, > > though. > > Probably the only way to approach this point is with > specific examples. That is dangerous, because there > is some chance of getting sidetracked onto the merits > of the political issue, and to make the point well I > need to use an issue about which people have strong > feelings. I don't see this example relating to your argument; it's certainly an example of an argument where the positions are passionate, but if any thing it's a poster child for how pointless that is. If the positions are *passionate* rather than *rational*, intellectual discussion will not arrive at anything much useful. > >> Second, in rhetoric, the goal is to find the > >> argument that the ultimate listeners (not the > >> present companion with whom one is having the > >> intellectual debate about rhetoric) will find > >> persuasive, which will almost certainly depend on > >> the strength of their beliefs in various > >> propositions. > [...] > > Rhetoric is in direct opposition to intellectual > > debate; rhetoric is the attempt to *convince* by > > tactical trickery. Intellectual debate is the > > attempt to *demonstrate* by *logic*. > > Thus the distinction I drew between ultimate listeners > and present companion. That is, you (present > companion) and I can discuss intellectually whether > the crowd to whom I will speak tomorrow (ultimate > listeners) will find one tactic or another persuasive. > You can demonstrate to me logically that one tactic > is persuasive, or another unpersuasive. Indeed, you > do me a disservice if you *persuade* me that a certain > tactic will be persuasive when in fact it will not. > > But in making your demonstration, you are likely to > draw on our shared intuitions and emotions. You might > draw on those we share with the crowd; or on those > that you share with the crowd and I do not, or vice > versa; or even on those that we share but the crowd > does not. Each has its uses. Sure; this seems just like what I was thinking on this part. > [...] > > If one attempts to make an axiomatic formal system > of > > aesthetics one could have intellectual debates with > > it, but they'd have little to do with how anybody > > liked a piece of art. > > I am, as I said, not a student of aesthetics. But > have you really never had the experience of discussing > intellectually whether a certain work of art was good > or bad, and why? It doesn't require an axiomatic > formal system. Nor is it wholly divorced from > intuitions, feelings, and emotions. Rather, it is an > attempt to make some sense of one's feelings, pro or > con, by comparisons between different works of art, > and an attempt to draw principles from one's > impressions. Sometimes it may lead to a subjective > reassessment of the work. ("Oh -- I hadn't thought of > it that way. Maybe the artist *was* trying to do > that. That's interesting.") Well, you can rationalize why you feel the way you do. That seems to me what it always comes down to. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From Alan.Halsted at mailus.com.au Mon Aug 19 00:29:00 2002 From: Alan.Halsted at mailus.com.au (Alan Halsted) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 17:29:00 +1000 Subject: Evolving language Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Baralier [SMTP:baralier at optusnet.com.au] > Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2002 1:38 AM > To: Caliann the Elf; dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Evolving language > > Hey paul Charming site! Cheers Al > . > > As long as you're only using the word and not practicing it : > http://www.mich.com/~pnsnv/othershit/squick.html > > ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please delete the e-mail & notify the system manager. We reserve the right to scan all e-mail traffic for restricted content and to monitor all e-mail traffic in general. The views and opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender and do not necessarily reflect the views of the organisation by whom they are employed, except where the sender expressly and with authority states them to be so. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been checked for the presence of computer viruses and script. We believe but do not warrant that this e-mail is free from viruses. Responsibility for virus checking rests entirely with the recipient. 5 at 356 ********************************************************************** From mneme at io.com Mon Aug 19 07:21:57 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 09:21:57 -0500 Subject: Evolving language In-Reply-To: References: <20020817195611.25E5726E26@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <15712.65285.254451.122345@hagbard.io.com> Mark A Mandel writes: >On Sat, 17 Aug 2002, magical truthsaying bastard roney! wrote: >#I have no joke here, i just like saying, "Thou look'st passing fair, >#milady, excepst thou manglest the Queen's good English and your tits >#are hanging out." >If thou seekest consistency in thy speech, conclude instead by saying >not "your tits", but "thy tits". Methinks that was the point... (Or Gaiman's point, at least). -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Mon Aug 19 11:39:36 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:39:36 -0700 Subject: Evolving language In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20020817104744.007ae170@astound.net> References: <20020817091145.55182.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> <3.0.5.32.20020817104744.007ae170@astound.net> Message-ID: <20020819183936.GA3320@ofb.net> On Sat, Aug 17, 2002 at 10:47:44AM -0500, Melissa Fitzgerald wrote: > I wonder whether the built-in strictness of programming languages > is a cause, or merely a symptom, of the difficulty we have had in > developing artificial intelligence. I'm not aware of any computer's I'd hazard more like a symptom, but not really that. We want our computers to be precise and predictable; this calls for easily resolvable, ambiguity free languages. AI, or dealing with humans, is a different problem than computers have usually had to solve... "Error: user is ill-defined." > ability to make sense of symbols with multiple, simultaneous and > contradictory meanings. (Is this something that fuzzy logic This is something I've thought about, trying to figure out what my cognitive science research will be. The work out of Douglas Hofstadter's lab, by Melanie Mitchell and others, has aspects of this: the programs are all about finding analogies, and at least while 'thinking' the programs can contain multiple pressures competing over the 'meaning' or best analogy. (Sample problems might be: if abc goes to abd, what does ijk go to? Or xyz? Or mrrjjj?) One can argue for ijk->ijl, or ijk->ijd, or ijk->ijk... the Copycat program has to figure out how to describe the abc->abd transformation. But yeah, I'd like to work on ambiguity resolution in language. -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Mon Aug 19 11:43:11 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:43:11 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: References: <200208161705.g7GH51o26957@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <20020819184311.GB3320@ofb.net> On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 01:29:03PM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > "ongoing emotional/sexual entanglement". A one-night stand is not a > relationship. Being married for 20 years is a relationship. Being > engaged is a relationship even if you haven't gotten into sex yet. So > "lover" isn't right (and is still Too Much Information in many > contexts), "fiancee" is wrong these days, "significant other" means > close to the same thing but is longer. 'consort' would be a useful noun, even doubling as a verb. But then people think you're pretending to be royalty. -xx- Damien X-) From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Aug 19 11:59:43 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <200208191859.g7JIxRo17462@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 01:29:03PM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > > "ongoing emotional/sexual entanglement". A one-night stand is not a > > relationship. Being married for 20 years is a relationship. Being > > engaged is a relationship even if you haven't gotten into sex yet. So > > "lover" isn't right (and is still Too Much Information in many > > contexts), "fiancee" is wrong these days, "significant other" means > > close to the same thing but is longer. I'll agree a one-night stand is not a relationship, at least how I think of the term. But out of curiosity, can a friendship be a relationship, or do I have a relationship with a friend? What about long-term dating with or without sexual entanglement? As a person who defines myself as polyamorous, I'm always hard-pressed to "define" my relationships with others. Are we boyfriend/girlfriend? Lovers? Dating? Casual "friends with fun-stuff on the side"? "Relationship" is vague, but it holds less stigma* than other words, and it's hard enough explaining multiple loving partners to people as it is... :) * - May be the wrong word, but I've been told I'm a master malapropist, so at least I have a lame excuse... Chris "So farewell hope, and with hope, farewell fear, Farewell remorse! All good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my Good" - John Milton - 'Paradise Lost' From rone at ennui.org Mon Aug 19 12:02:17 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 12:02:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <20020819184311.GB3320@ofb.net> Message-ID: <20020819190217.2798326E26@boredom.ennui.org> Damien Sullivan writes: 'consort' would be a useful noun, even doubling as a verb. But then people think you're pretending to be royalty. "Pretending"? rone -- {Reagan's} presidency always reminded me of a remark made by a woman to Heywood Broun following Secretariat's victory in the Triple Crown. After the trauma of Vietnam and Watergate, she said, Secretariat had "restored her faith in humanity." I like to think Reagan was the Secretariat of the eighties. - Garry Trudeau From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Aug 19 12:33:13 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 19 Aug 2002 14:33:13 -0500 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <200208191859.g7JIxRo17462@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200208191859.g7JIxRo17462@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: Chris Olson - SunPS writes: > > On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 01:29:03PM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > > > > "ongoing emotional/sexual entanglement". A one-night stand is not a > > > relationship. Being married for 20 years is a relationship. Being > > > engaged is a relationship even if you haven't gotten into sex yet. So > > > "lover" isn't right (and is still Too Much Information in many > > > contexts), "fiancee" is wrong these days, "significant other" means > > > close to the same thing but is longer. > > I'll agree a one-night stand is not a relationship, at > least how I think of the term. > > But out of curiosity, can a friendship be a relationship, > or do I have a relationship with a friend? What about > long-term dating with or without sexual entanglement? "Relationship" has varying contextual meanings. Certainly friendship *is* a relationship in one sense. So is being enemies. But in other contexts, which includes most contexts where you actually talk about the relationship by name, no, you don't have "relationships" with your friends. It's even used for humor now and then, having somebody refer to "his relationship with X" and have people make the assumption that he means the "emotional/sexual entanglement" definition when he doesn't. > As a person who defines myself as polyamorous, I'm > always hard-pressed to "define" my relationships with > others. Are we boyfriend/girlfriend? Lovers? Dating? > Casual "friends with fun-stuff on the side"? I've just spent the weekend at my 30th highschool class reunion avoiding going into that. Only one of my close friends was there, and he either already knows or there'll be a chance to explain later. Around here we use "sweetie" a lot. > "Relationship" is vague, but it holds less stigma* than other > words, and it's hard enough explaining multiple loving partners > to people as it is... :) > > * - May be the wrong word, but I've been told I'm a master > malapropist, so at least I have a lame excuse... Sorry, you got that one right :-) -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Aug 19 12:43:57 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 12:43:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <200208191943.g7JJhfo29597@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> David Dyer-Bennet responded with: > "Relationship" has varying contextual meanings. Certainly friendship > *is* a relationship in one sense. So is being enemies. But in other > contexts, which includes most contexts where you actually talk about > the relationship by name, no, you don't have "relationships" with your > friends. It's even used for humor now and then, having somebody refer > to "his relationship with X" and have people make the assumption that > he means the "emotional/sexual entanglement" definition when he > doesn't. I generaly use the term to mean a "long-term dating" involvement. Though I should probably say, instead of long-term, "as long as the relationship lasts" I've been in very serious "relationships" that have only lasted 10 months... :) > I've just spent the weekend at my 30th highschool class reunion > avoiding going into that. Only one of my close friends was there, and > he either already knows or there'll be a chance to explain later. Heh. I usualy just try to avoid the issue entirely. I'll use "friend" or "girlfriend" or the persons name (dear god, no!:) and just skirt the issue as best I can. It's easier than getting into a huge discussion. :) > Around here we use "sweetie" a lot. See, that works. But I tend to use that term, and others like it, for most anyone I care about, whether or not I'm dating them. (See also: "love", "darling", etc.) ;) > > * - May be the wrong word, but I've been told I'm a master > > malapropist, so at least I have a lame excuse... > > Sorry, you got that one right :-) Dagnabbit! Oh well. I'll have to try again sometime... Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From Gaertk at aol.com Mon Aug 19 12:46:05 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:46:05 -0400 Subject: Reason and passion (was: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity) Message-ID: <1F61CF4A.5E579BA3.00048EA6@aol.com> David Dyer-Bennet writes: > Gregory Rapawy writes: > >> Taking your broader claim ("*How much* somebody cares >> about something *in an intellectual debate* is >> completely irrelevant, except tactically."), I think >> that in certain areas of debate the strength of the >> participants' beliefs in certain emotional (or, >> perhaps, value) propositions is relevant to the truth >> they are seeking to ascertain. ?Examples include >> political philosophy, rhetoric, and aesthetics. > > Well, for your particular benefit, I will disagree > *passionately* and *vehemently* with this position. ?Maybe > it'll help, who knows? I'm with you, David. The more passionate someone is, the less attention I pay to their claims; anyone who can't stop ranting goes straight to my killfile. Lurk a while on rec.arts.sf.written for reasons why I do this; the thread with "Iraq" in the subject is probably a good place to start. As for sincerity, I'll put forward the claim that the most sincere people on the planet are suicide bombers. Discuss. --KG From dar at horusinc.com Mon Aug 19 17:03:48 2002 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:03:48 -0500 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <200208191859.g7JIxRo17462@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: Chris, > But out of curiosity, can a friendship be a relationship, > or do I have a relationship with a friend? What about > long-term dating with or without sexual entanglement? Yes, yes, yes, yes. > As a person who defines myself as polyamorous, I'm > always hard-pressed to "define" my relationships with > others. Are we boyfriend/girlfriend? Lovers? Dating? > Casual "friends with fun-stuff on the side"? I think that the term you are looking for is 'umfriend' As in: 'So who is this?' 'X? Oh, X is my um... friend.' David From rone at ennui.org Mon Aug 19 17:25:59 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 17:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reason and passion (was: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity) In-Reply-To: <1F61CF4A.5E579BA3.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020820002559.7BFE826E26@boredom.ennui.org> Gaertk at aol.com writes: As for sincerity, I'll put forward the claim that the most sincere people on the planet are suicide bombers. Discuss. Pff. Let's try to show SOME restraint on this mailing list, yes? rone -- {Reagan's} presidency always reminded me of a remark made by a woman to Heywood Broun following Secretariat's victory in the Triple Crown. After the trauma of Vietnam and Watergate, she said, Secretariat had "restored her faith in humanity." I like to think Reagan was the Secretariat of the eighties. - Garry Trudeau From Alan.Halsted at mailus.com.au Mon Aug 19 20:32:39 2002 From: Alan.Halsted at mailus.com.au (Alan Halsted) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:32:39 +1000 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: > "Relationship" has varying contextual meanings. Certainly friendship > *is* a relationship in one sense. So is being enemies. But in other > contexts, which includes most contexts where you actually talk about > the relationship by name, no, you don't have "relationships" with your > friends. It's even used for humor now and then, having somebody refer > to "his relationship with X" and have people make the assumption that > he means the "emotional/sexual entanglement" definition when he > doesn't. > And we can thank the business world for muddying the water even further. A business relationship begins at first meeting, either with a transaction (money or just a business card) or the promise or 'hopefulness' of future transactions. If anyone wishes to expound this further, go ahead. My lunch break is over! Ambiguity abounds! Cheers Alan ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please delete the e-mail & notify the system manager. We reserve the right to scan all e-mail traffic for restricted content and to monitor all e-mail traffic in general. The views and opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender and do not necessarily reflect the views of the organisation by whom they are employed, except where the sender expressly and with authority states them to be so. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been checked for the presence of computer viruses and script. We believe but do not warrant that this e-mail is free from viruses. Responsibility for virus checking rests entirely with the recipient. 5 at 356 ********************************************************************** From mtiller at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 20 10:36:50 2002 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 18:36:50 +0100 Subject: Reason and passion (was: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity) In-Reply-To: <1F61CF4A.5E579BA3.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <000001c24870$2a9f5fa0$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> > As for sincerity, I'll put forward the claim that the most sincere people on the planet are suicide bombers. Discuss. Sincere? I'm not sure, the ones in Palestine at the moment are being paid $US 25,000 by Saddam Hussein. That wil certainly go a long way for there families. On the other hand, there is the old quote about Suicide being the sincerest for of self criticism. Mark. From Randi128 at aol.com Tue Aug 20 11:01:25 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:01:25 EDT Subject: Reason and passion (was: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity) Message-ID: <8d.1cec8670.2a93ddf5@aol.com> >I'll put forward the claim that the most sincere people on earth are the suicide bombers. Sincere or not it is a cowardly and cruel act of evil. If you want to see the face of the devil, just look at the posters of the martyrs that are pasted all over the west bank. I will openly admit my sympathies lie with Israel. Historically the Palistinians have no claim to the west bank or any other land in Israel. They are the malcontents and criminals that have been thrown out of Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran ..... There has never been and, hopefully(heh,heh), never will be a Palistinian state. By the way, what does this discussion have to do with Steves books? Is this leading to a discussion of the Easterner and Teckla revolt in Andhrilanka? John D. Barbato From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Aug 20 11:03:45 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 11:03:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reason and passion (was: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity) Message-ID: <200208201803.g7KI3To17813@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Sincere? I'm not sure, the ones in Palestine at the moment are being > paid $US 25,000 by Saddam Hussein. That wil certainly go a long way for > there families. Can I ask where you read/heard this piece of information? I *can* see Hussein doing something like this, but I have not heard it yet, and I tend to be watchful of the goings-on of the Palenstinians. Thanks, Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From Randi128 at aol.com Tue Aug 20 11:07:00 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:07:00 EDT Subject: Reason and passion (was: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity) Message-ID: Regarding the $25,000 reward offered to the families of suicide bombers. It's all over the news and internet. If you have not seen this before you are not following the story very closely. It is common knowledge at this point. John Barbato From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Aug 20 11:08:25 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 11:08:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reason and passion (was: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity) Message-ID: <200208201808.g7KI89o18914@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Sincere or not it is a cowardly and cruel act of evil. If you want to see the > face of the devil, just look at the posters of the martyrs that are pasted > all over the west bank. I will openly admit my sympathies lie with Israel. > Historically the Palistinians have no claim to the west bank or any other > land in Israel. They are the malcontents and criminals that have been thrown > out of Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran ..... > There has never been and, hopefully(heh,heh), never will be a Palistinian > state. > > By the way, what does this discussion have to do with Steves books? > Is this leading to a discussion of the Easterner and Teckla revolt in > Andhrilanka? Acualy, unless Steve joins this discussion, I would ask that we PLEASE move on to something else. Like Steve with politics, I turn into a RAVING a-hole on topics like this, and just can't seem to control myself to not put in my $5.50 worth... So, unless we continue this, I'll not respond to the above... Chris "He is a lover of his country who rebukes and does not excuse its sins." - Frederick Douglass From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Aug 20 11:11:46 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 11:11:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reason and passion (was: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity) Message-ID: <200208201811.g7KIBTo19672@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Regarding the $25,000 reward offered to the families of suicide bombers. > > > It's all over the news and internet. If you have not seen this before you are > not following the story very closely. It is common knowledge at this point. A $25k *reward* is different than "being paid $US 25,000 by Saddam Hussein." A HUGE difference. And, though I've not heard the news in the last couple of days, I tend to listen to non-mainstream news as well. Much more informative, and I get a different side of the story (which is what, IMO, our country is all about...:) Chris "He is a lover of his country who rebukes and does not excuse its sins." - Frederick Douglass From nytemuse at auros.org Tue Aug 20 15:15:43 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Volunteer Opportunity Message-ID: OK, so this isn't quite self-promotion, but it IS a request for help, sort of. Anyone who did get a chance to check out Strange Horizons, there's a position that needs to be filled that's not posted on the page yet. I'm sure everyone on the list has more on their plate than they want (like me), but the staff and all are really cool and it's a great way to hear about new speculative fiction authors, books, games, movies, anime, and more. True, it's not a paid position, but Strange Horizons is rapidly becoming a prestigious publication, mentioned in many circles. We are in the running for the Hugos now, and I believe we recently got recognized by a certain organization so that authors who get published in our magazine counts for professional credits... But it's a good opportunity! There are 2 other extremely competent editors on staff who are showing no signs of leaving in the near future, so you won't be on your own. They just need someone to take a small portion of the work off of them and someone to fall back on during vacations or illness. And if you have any other questions, I am in regular contact with one of the editors, so just ask! The Strange Horizons Reviews Department is looking for a reviews editor with strong editing and interpersonal skills. Editor will need to work with reviewers to edit one or two reviews each month and will need to work with other editors to evaluate submitted materials (both books for review and reviews themselves), and to select books for review. Willingness to help in contacting publishers and authors expected. Editor will have opportunities to write occasional reviews. Editor must be good at meeting deadlines and helping authors to meet them. For more info and to express interest, go to http://www.strangehorizons.com/ ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From kknolte at ecity.net Tue Aug 20 17:45:03 2002 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 18:45:03 -0600 Subject: Reason and passion (was: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity) References: <8d.1cec8670.2a93ddf5@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D62E28B.3DE9@ecity.net> Randi128 at aol.com wrote: I will openly admit my sympathies lie with Israel. > Historically the Palistinians have no claim to the west bank or any other > land in Israel. They are the malcontents and criminals that have been thrown > out of Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran ..... Well, except replace Jordan et al. with Germany and Bohemia et al, and that sounds suspiciously like it could be used against my ancestors and their claim to their little piece of North America. (I don't know - are draft dodgers criminals, or just malcontents?) Anyway, if you really want to continue this further, why not obDragaera and discuss whether the Serioli might be interested in suicide bombing as a way of reclaiming their land? Sorta 1) It's their land (or maybe the cat-centaurs too?) 2) Serioli don't fight if there's a chance Morganti weapons will be used (the reason they were invented, supposedly), but that does imply that they were willing to fight if their soul would exist afterwards 3) OTOH, no hint that Morganti weapons can destroy a soul if the body is dead before the Morganti weapon is used, so...... From Lydy at demesne.com Tue Aug 20 19:10:34 2002 From: Lydy at demesne.com (Lydia Nickerson) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 21:10:34 -0500 Subject: Reason and passion (was: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity) In-Reply-To: <1F61CF4A.5E579BA3.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <1F61CF4A.5E579BA3.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: At 3:46 PM -0400 8/19/02, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >David Dyer-Bennet writes: > >> Gregory Rapawy writes: >> >>> Taking your broader claim ("*How much* somebody cares >>> about something *in an intellectual debate* is >>> completely irrelevant, except tactically."), I think >>> that in certain areas of debate the strength of the >>> participants' beliefs in certain emotional (or, >>> perhaps, value) propositions is relevant to the truth >>> they are seeking to ascertain. ?Examples include >>> political philosophy, rhetoric, and aesthetics. >> >> Well, for your particular benefit, I will disagree >> *passionately* and *vehemently* with this position. ?Maybe >> it'll help, who knows? > >I'm with you, David. The more passionate someone is, the >less attention I pay to their claims; anyone who can't stop >ranting goes straight to my killfile. Lurk a while on >rec.arts.sf.written for reasons why I do this; the thread >with "Iraq" in the subject is probably a good place to start. I _like_ rants. I admire well writen ones. I go on them myself (as David will testify). Indeed, I think they serve useful rhetorical purposes. Mistaking a rant for a constructive argument, by either party, leads to miscommunication. But anger, moral outrage, despair, and agony are part of many important issues. I think that the argument that emotion leads to flawed arguments isn't true. I think that many people substitute emotion for logic, and that many people mistake emotion for reasoned argument. In my opinion, a good argument has both a sufficient emotional component as to give it weight and meaning and carefully reasoned argumentation, and clear distinctions between the two. -- Lydy Nickerson lydy at demesne.com lydy at lydy.com Dulciculi Aliquorum From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Aug 21 00:02:18 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 00:02:18 -0700 Subject: Evolving language In-Reply-To: <003201c24604$27c5e790$18a231d2@valadan> References: <20020817091145.55182.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020821000129.02b53ec0@localhost> At 01:38 AM 8/18/2002 +1000, Baralier wrote: >Caliann the Elf wrote... > > > > Besides, I am rather fond of the word "squick". I never realized how much > > that word was necessary to my lifestyle until I learned it. Now it is a > > regular part of my vocabulary. Useful word! You won't find it in the > > dictionary.....yet. > >As long as you're only using the word and not practicing it : >http://www.mich.com/~pnsnv/othershit/squick.html Interesting. A classic case. The meaning of that word as *certainly* expanded. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Aug 21 12:20:40 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 12:20:40 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816172735.00a86cd0@localhost> <15709.2924.651473.186063@gw.dd-b.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20020816172735.00a86cd0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020821122005.029c6050@localhost> At 01:59 PM 8/17/2002 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > >Well, it's a bad thing if the emotion prevents you from seeing valid >objections to your position, or leads you to treat others so as to >engage *their* emotions negatively. This is your "goes too far" case >I believe. > >If it just leads you to work hard at the argument, then I guess that's >good. In a word, I agree. Passionately. :-) From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Aug 21 12:30:45 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 12:30:45 -0700 Subject: Reason and passion (was: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity) In-Reply-To: <200208201808.g7KI89o18914@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020821122942.029be700@localhost> At 11:08 AM 8/20/2002 -0700, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > Sincere or not it is a cowardly and cruel act of evil. If you want to > see the > > face of the devil, just look at the posters of the martyrs that are pasted > > all over the west bank. I will openly admit my sympathies lie with Israel. > > Historically the Palistinians have no claim to the west bank or any other > > land in Israel. They are the malcontents and criminals that have been > thrown > > out of Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran ..... > > There has never been and, hopefully(heh,heh), never will be a Palistinian > > state. > >Acualy, unless Steve joins this discussion, I would ask >that we PLEASE move on to something else. I second the motion. I am exercising *great* self-restraint at this point and not respond to the above...um....post. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Aug 21 12:33:07 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 12:33:07 -0700 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length In-Reply-To: <3D5E7062.76D3E00F@attbi.com> References: <20020816043909.GC10352@infodancer.org> <16f.122a3942.2a8cc4ca@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815105845.00abb530@localhost> <20020816043909.GC10352@infodancer.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020816174632.00ac26a0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020821123232.029ba730@localhost> At 10:48 AM 8/17/2002 -0500, Mia McDavid wrote: >SKZB said: > > > >As for why Vlad uses techniques with a rapier that, in fact, were not >developed during the historical period on Earth when the rapier was in >use, >I will only say that there is a reason, and that this is one of the >things >I had figured out before I wrote the first word of the first story about > >Vlad. > > > >See, Steve, I am *totally* cool with waiting for all 19 novels if >necessary for the Cool Unrevealed Backstory, but if you drop dead, is >there a letter somewhere to fill your fans in? Nope. Want to start a fund to get me medical coverage. :-) From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Aug 21 12:38:13 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 12:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length Message-ID: <200208211937.g7LJbvo10802@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > >See, Steve, I am *totally* cool with waiting for all 19 novels if > >necessary for the Cool Unrevealed Backstory, but if you drop dead, is > >there a letter somewhere to fill your fans in? > > Nope. > > Want to start a fund to get me medical coverage. :-) Well, I'm allowed to carry "live-in partners" on my work coverage... How do you like the Bay Area? :-) Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Aug 21 12:38:18 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 12:38:18 -0700 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length In-Reply-To: <15710.33356.447192.105859@hagbard.io.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816174632.00ac26a0@localhost> <20020816043909.GC10352@infodancer.org> <16f.122a3942.2a8cc4ca@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815105845.00abb530@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020816174632.00ac26a0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020821123652.029bd680@localhost> At 12:05 PM 8/17/2002 -0500, Joshua Kronengold wrote: > > >My definition of "rapier" includes the sort of weapon in general use in > >France and England from about 1600-1650, > >Cool. The kind that Elizabeth's laws said couldn't be more than 36 >inches long on penalty of the end being cut off? Make it simple: The weapon used by the historical figure upon whom D'artagnan was based. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Aug 21 12:39:55 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 12:39:55 -0700 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length In-Reply-To: References: <20020817023741.GJ30233@infodancer.org> <20020816043909.GC10352@infodancer.org> <16f.122a3942.2a8cc4ca@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815105845.00abb530@localhost> <20020816043909.GC10352@infodancer.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020816174632.00ac26a0@localhost> <20020817023741.GJ30233@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020821123935.029ae240@localhost> At 02:33 PM 8/17/2002 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > >Detailed accuracy in a cover is very much not something to expect. >Heck, I've stopped even *hoping* for it. Apart from everything else, >it often interferes with the important purpose of the cover. Yes! Exactly! From nytemuse at auros.org Wed Aug 21 12:41:43 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 12:41:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reason and passion (was: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020821122942.029be700@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: > At 11:08 AM 8/20/2002 -0700, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > > Sincere or not it is a cowardly and cruel act of evil. If you want to > > see the > > > face of the devil, just look at the posters of the martyrs that are pasted > > > all over the west bank. I will openly admit my sympathies lie with Israel. > > > Historically the Palistinians have no claim to the west bank or any other > > > land in Israel. They are the malcontents and criminals that have been > > thrown > > > out of Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran ..... > > > There has never been and, hopefully(heh,heh), never will be a Palistinian > > > state. > > > >Acualy, unless Steve joins this discussion, I would ask > >that we PLEASE move on to something else. > I second the motion. I am exercising *great* self-restraint at this point > and not respond to the above...um....post. I third. I stopped following when it got all political-like. All in favor? ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From mtiller at ntlworld.com Wed Aug 21 15:14:57 2002 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 23:14:57 +0100 Subject: Reason and passion (was: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity) In-Reply-To: <3D62E28B.3DE9@ecity.net> Message-ID: <000101c24960$2f177630$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> >3) OTOH, no hint that Morganti weapons can destroy a soul if the body is dead before the Morganti weapon is used. In fact in one book, I can't remember which one, it specifically says that a Morganti weapon has no effect if the person is already dead. Regards Mark From spiderman92 at attbi.com Wed Aug 21 17:22:54 2002 From: spiderman92 at attbi.com (Sunny Han) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 19:22:54 -0500 Subject: Reason and passion (was: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity) References: <000101c24960$2f177630$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> Message-ID: <000701c24972$0f01f0c0$f4892942@SUNNY1> yeah, Aliera is trying to explain to Vlad about souls, i think it was in Issola, although, not sure. she says something along the lines of ...it doesn't work if you stick a Morganti weapon into a dead body... Your Friend, Cordially, Sunny ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Tiller" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 5:14 PM Subject: RE: Reason and passion (was: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity) > >3) OTOH, no hint that Morganti weapons can destroy a soul if the body > is dead before the Morganti weapon is used. > > In fact in one book, I can't remember which one, it specifically says > that a Morganti weapon has no effect if the person is already dead. > > Regards > > Mark > > From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Aug 21 18:12:28 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 18:12:28 -0700 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816170335.029de9b0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020821181058.02a50890@localhost> At 09:57 AM 8/17/2002 -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote: > > >#My problem with "hopefully" is exactly here. The illusion of saying more >#than is actually said irritates me. To me, this outweighs the advantages >#you mention. > >Suppose that, to most people, "Hopefully, S" (where S is a sentence) >means "I'm optimistic that S. I predict S, I'm not sure of it, but I >more expect S than not-S, and I prefer S." How would you feel about the >usage then? Interesting question, and worth thinking about. I think if I had been convinced that that was the meaning twenty years ago, I'd have conceded this battle as lost sooner than I did. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Aug 21 18:22:25 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 18:22:25 -0700 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816171651.029d7b30@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815234105.029ceb80@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020816171651.029d7b30@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020821182054.02a53b90@localhost> At 02:16 PM 8/17/2002 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >Steven Brust writes: > > > It may be that my definition of "language" is too broad to be useful. > > But it seems to me that it is valid to make the point that thought > > occurs by manipulating symbols in our brains. I believe that the > > learning of a skill involves (in part) learning the language > > associated with that skill. That was my point. > >Now, at *some* level thought occurs by diffusing neurotransmitters >through the soup. If what's in our head *actually* works anything >like a "neural network" (the modern technological concept) works, I'd >say that "symbol" isn't a very relevent concept to it. Deffusing neurotransmitters through the soup, as you put it, happens during a lot of activity that cannot be considered "thought" by any reasonable definition. What distinguishes what we call thought from the other brain activity? I contend that it is, in fact, symbol manipulation. From mam at theworld.com Wed Aug 21 18:49:30 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 21:49:30 -0400 Subject: Evolving language In-Reply-To: <01KLEXA70GYK0013MG@chud.net> Message-ID: [Jot] #>#>very particular sort of meaning. But programming languages are #>#>very, very strictly defined. Unlike natural language, programming #>#>languages very rarely possess symbols that have simultaneous #>#>meanings depending on the context. How does a compiler handle #>#>ambiguity? It doesn't. We define the rules so there is no #># #>#Counterexample: #># #>#sendmail.cf -> $: #>#(as well as any number of other $ variables) [Mark M] #>Is that a counterexample? Variables have, well, variable meanings, but #>in any context -- at runtime -- only one of them will be in effect. # #>I'm putting this as a question rather than an assertion because I don't #>know the language of this construction. But am I right here? [Jot, round 2] #The example I'm thinking of (which doesn't make sense in context, #but was valid when I was playing with this was): # #$: $: $: # #In which all three $:'s meant different things. Oh, sure. Contextual distinction. In Perl, the '#' character begins a comment, but '$#foo', iirc, is an assignable variable meaning the highest subscript value in the array @foo. -- Mark A. Mandel From spiderman92 at attbi.com Wed Aug 21 18:57:31 2002 From: spiderman92 at attbi.com (Sunny Han) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 20:57:31 -0500 Subject: Evolving language References: Message-ID: <000e01c2497f$470a3240$f4892942@SUNNY1> However, programming languages are similar to natural languages in that they started very simple, only what programmers need it, but with routes for expansion as well. As technology developed and programmers needed a firmer grasp and control on the operations of the machine, thing were added. Such as C and C++. Further, many different programming languages can be traced back to say... shell scripting, which is like many romantic languages have similarites with Latin. Sunny. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark A Mandel" To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 8:49 PM Subject: Re: Evolving language > [Jot] > #>#>very particular sort of meaning. But programming languages are > #>#>very, very strictly defined. Unlike natural language, programming > #>#>languages very rarely possess symbols that have simultaneous > #>#>meanings depending on the context. How does a compiler handle > #>#>ambiguity? It doesn't. We define the rules so there is no > #># > #>#Counterexample: > #># > #>#sendmail.cf -> $: > #>#(as well as any number of other $ variables) > > [Mark M] > #>Is that a counterexample? Variables have, well, variable meanings, but > #>in any context -- at runtime -- only one of them will be in effect. > # > #>I'm putting this as a question rather than an assertion because I don't > #>know the language of this construction. But am I right here? > > [Jot, round 2] > #The example I'm thinking of (which doesn't make sense in context, > #but was valid when I was playing with this was): > # > #$: $: $: > # > #In which all three $:'s meant different things. > > Oh, sure. Contextual distinction. In Perl, the '#' character begins a > comment, but '$#foo', iirc, is an assignable variable meaning the > highest subscript value in the array @foo. > > -- Mark A. Mandel > > From mam at theworld.com Wed Aug 21 19:00:02 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 22:00:02 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 18 Aug 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: #I don't think we're actually disagreeing (yet; but there's hope). #Thought is the conscious mental manipulation of symbols to achieve a #desired result. It doesn't have to be successful, but you do have to #know what you're doing. OK. Now, when I visualize placing THIS object THERE, etc., I am certainly performing a conscious mental manipulation. Am I using symbols, in your view? -- Mark A. Mandel From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Aug 21 19:01:28 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 19:01:28 -0700 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020821190111.02a44400@localhost> At 10:00 PM 8/21/2002 -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On 18 Aug 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > >#I don't think we're actually disagreeing (yet; but there's hope). >#Thought is the conscious mental manipulation of symbols to achieve a >#desired result. It doesn't have to be successful, but you do have to >#know what you're doing. > >OK. Now, when I visualize placing THIS object THERE, etc., I am >certainly performing a conscious mental manipulation. Am I using >symbols, in your view? Dunno about David, but I would say yes. From mam at theworld.com Wed Aug 21 19:05:24 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 22:05:24 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <004401c246cd$da526c70$883e5418@dontbenosy> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Aug 2002, Sean wrote: # #Mia said: #> (God, this is fun!) #> #> Samuel Delany (I think!) wrote a book called Babel 17--damn good #> book--in which the bad guys invented a language that contained no "I". #> Without "I", there cannot be "you"; without a concept of "I" and "you" . #> . . well, let's just say the poor guy grew up pretty strange. # #Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis. Generally out of vogue nowadays (as am I!). The #Delany book is circa 1960s, the hypothesis the late 20s. They took it a bit #far, stating that language determines thought, whereas today most believe it #only influences thought. # #http://venus.va.com.au/suggestion/sapir.html I have a colleague who argues persuasively that Whorf never espoused this hypothesis at all. Hmmm... Dan Alford is his name; if you want to find his arguments, go to http://www.linguistlist.org and search the archives for posts to the LINGUIST List from "Alford" containing the string "Whorf". -- Mark A. Mandel From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Aug 21 19:07:11 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 21:07:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: Mark A Mandel's message of 21 August 2002 References: Message-ID: <15716.18255.399083.159144@gw.dd-b.net> Mark A Mandel writes on 21 August 2002 at 22:00:02 -0400 > On 18 Aug 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > #I don't think we're actually disagreeing (yet; but there's hope). > #Thought is the conscious mental manipulation of symbols to achieve a > #desired result. It doesn't have to be successful, but you do have to > #know what you're doing. > > OK. Now, when I visualize placing THIS object THERE, etc., I am > certainly performing a conscious mental manipulation. Am I using > symbols, in your view? Since you're not moving the real objects, but rather have something representing them, I think that's symbols within the meaning of the act, yes. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Aug 21 19:54:56 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 21 Aug 2002 21:54:56 -0500 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020821182054.02a53b90@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816171651.029d7b30@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020815234105.029ceb80@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020816171651.029d7b30@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020821182054.02a53b90@localhost> Message-ID: Steven Brust writes: > At 02:16 PM 8/17/2002 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > >Steven Brust writes: > > > > > It may be that my definition of "language" is too broad to be useful. > > > But it seems to me that it is valid to make the point that thought > > > occurs by manipulating symbols in our brains. I believe that the > > > learning of a skill involves (in part) learning the language > > > associated with that skill. That was my point. > > > >Now, at *some* level thought occurs by diffusing neurotransmitters > >through the soup. If what's in our head *actually* works anything > >like a "neural network" (the modern technological concept) works, I'd > >say that "symbol" isn't a very relevent concept to it. > > Deffusing neurotransmitters through the soup, as you put it, happens > during a lot of activity that cannot be considered "thought" by any > reasonable definition. What distinguishes what we call thought from > the other brain activity? I contend that it is, in fact, symbol > manipulation. At the moment I can't get any closer to this than "I don't know". I have a fair amount of idea of what it feels like from the inside, and some anecdotal reports from other people on that topic. And I know a bit about what's been learned about the low-level mechanics of the brain. But I have *absolutely no clue* how those hook up in the middle. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From frank at exit.com Wed Aug 21 20:11:01 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 20:11:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020821182054.02a53b90@localhost> Message-ID: <200208220311.g7M3B1i2052162@realtime.exit.com> Steven Brust wrote: > Deffusing neurotransmitters through the soup, as you put it, happens during > a lot of activity that cannot be considered "thought" by any reasonable > definition. What distinguishes what we call thought from the other brain > activity? In a word, nothing. "Thought" _is_ the release and reuptake of neurotransmitters, the electrical impulses transferred along the axons of neurons. Of course, it's not those themselves, it, like any other brain function, is the combined activity of tens and hundreds of thousands, millions, of neurons activating and inhibiting in incredibly complex combinations and patterns. The more I consider it and the more I learn about the state of the art in neurophysiology and neuropsychology, the more I have become convinced that what we perceive as "thought" arises entirely out of this cacaphony of apparently chaotic activity. (In fact, chaos appears to be an integral part of brain activity. The most regular patterns occur only during an epileptic seizure.) > I contend that it is, in fact, symbol manipulation. Well, that is what neural networks do best, eh? :-) -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From frank at exit.com Wed Aug 21 20:16:53 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 20:16:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200208220316.g7M3GrIJ053557@realtime.exit.com> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > At the moment I can't get any closer to this than "I don't know". I > have a fair amount of idea of what it feels like from the inside, and > some anecdotal reports from other people on that topic. And I know a > bit about what's been learned about the low-level mechanics of the > brain. But I have *absolutely no clue* how those hook up in the > middle. I'm beginning to suspect that the subjective perception (the "I" that thinks and the self-awareness) is an illusion. So if that's the case, they _don't_ "hook up in the middle." You go from the complexity of the low-level stuff straight to the high-level stuff in one leap, since in a way the high-level stuff doesn't really exist. (I know that I'm overstating a bit but I think the point is valid.) -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From jedijane at yahoo.com Wed Aug 21 20:18:25 2002 From: jedijane at yahoo.com (Michelle Goepp) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 20:18:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <20020817003639.20A1526E26@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <20020822031825.75390.qmail@web12304.mail.yahoo.com> --- magical truthsaying bastard roney! wrote: > Let's face it: we're lazy speakers. Of course we are. If one tried to refine, simplify, and most clearly express every thought verbally, our conversations would last hours rather than the 15 minutes our boss allows us. Or, in the case of some of my acquaintences, weeks. We would then speak as we thoughtfully write (as opposed to quickly write, such as IM-speak). Being lazy, therefore, saves time at the expense of clarity, using common phrases and assumptions to communicate in an almost shorthand form of the language. ~M ===== Michelle "Black holes are where God divided by zero." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com From jedijane at yahoo.com Wed Aug 21 20:27:54 2002 From: jedijane at yahoo.com (Michelle Goepp) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 20:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020816000424.029ca8f0@localhost> Message-ID: <20020822032754.76938.qmail@web12304.mail.yahoo.com> --- Steven Brust wrote: > At 10:16 PM 8/15/2002 -0400, James and Mary Burbidge > wrote: > >Mark A Mandel wrote: > >_My_ bete noire, however, is not "hopefully", but > the breakdown in the > >distinction between "shall" and "will". > > Hmmm. I believe I shall pick up that banner myself. I love what The American Heritage Book of English Usage has to say about that-- the traditional rules vs. reality-- at http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/056.html My favorite is this: "In America, people who try to adhere to [the rules] run the risk of sounding pretentious or haughty." ~M ===== Michelle "Black holes are where God divided by zero." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com From rone at ennui.org Wed Aug 21 20:58:25 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 20:58:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <20020822031825.75390.qmail@web12304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020822035825.C0CB926E26@boredom.ennui.org> Michelle Goepp writes: --- magical truthsaying bastard roney! wrote: > Let's face it: we're lazy speakers. Of course we are. If one tried to refine, simplify, and most clearly express every thought verbally, our conversations would last hours rather than the 15 minutes our boss allows us. Or, in the case of some of my acquaintences, weeks. We would then speak as we thoughtfully write (as opposed to quickly write, such as IM-speak). Being lazy, therefore, saves time at the expense of clarity, using common phrases and assumptions to communicate in an almost shorthand form of the language. If one speaks lazily at the expense of clarity, one will more often than not need to be more specific. So the time you saved will disappear. "Penny wise and pound foolish," i think it's called. rone -- {Reagan's} presidency always reminded me of a remark made by a woman to Heywood Broun following Secretariat's victory in the Triple Crown. After the trauma of Vietnam and Watergate, she said, Secretariat had "restored her faith in humanity." I like to think Reagan was the Secretariat of the eighties. - Garry Trudeau From rsuitor at cjwrfs.net Wed Aug 21 21:26:55 2002 From: rsuitor at cjwrfs.net (Richard Suitor) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 00:26:55 -0400 Subject: OT: brain activity (was bois) In-Reply-To: <200208220311.g7M3B1i2052162@realtime.exit.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020821182054.02a53b90@localhost> <200208220311.g7M3B1i2052162@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <52p8mu4fbtbibm1020g7qrnj3ios985g46@4ax.com> On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 20:11:01 -0700 (PDT), Frank Mayhar wrote: >(In fact, chaos appears to be an integral part of brain activity. The most >regular patterns occur only during an epileptic seizure.) Is that surprising? Regular patterns imply low information content - not a characteristic of the alert, functioning brain. But an apparently random signal does not imply chaos. A highly compressed file will appear pretty chaotic until processed in the correct way. Living on the inside, I posit that the randomness does not imply chaos but instead implies our ignorance of the code. (Plus what we measure of brain activity is likely a severe projection of the full activity and thus not subject to more than gross decoding anyway. Going back to the compressed file analogy, someone took the original compressed file, did something like a running average over a thousand bits and gave you the results to look at and try to comprehend ;<) Richard From scs at di.org Wed Aug 21 21:24:39 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 00:24:39 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lav<>hantress of Dzur Mountain) Message-ID: <20020822042439.GA26119@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> At 02:16 PM 8/17/2002 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Now, at *some* level thought occurs by diffusing neurotransmitters > through the soup. If what's in our head *actually* works anything > like a "neural network" (the modern technological concept) works, I'd > say that "symbol" isn't a very relevent concept to it. Great Ghu, have we stumbled past the classic mind/brain question without even discussing it? Not that I *want* to discuss it, just want to put a stake in the ground saying we've skipped it. -- "Deconstruction is [when] a work is interpreted as a statement about itself, using a literary version of the same cheap trick that Kurt Godel used to try to frighten mathematicians back in the thirties." -- Chip Morningstar in From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Aug 21 23:24:37 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 23:24:37 -0700 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <200208220311.g7M3B1i2052162@realtime.exit.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020821182054.02a53b90@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020821232251.029b7ec0@localhost> At 08:11 PM 8/21/2002 -0700, Frank Mayhar wrote: >Steven Brust wrote: > > Deffusing neurotransmitters through the soup, as you put it, happens > during > > a lot of activity that cannot be considered "thought" by any reasonable > > definition. What distinguishes what we call thought from the other brain > > activity? > >In a word, nothing. "Thought" _is_ the release and reuptake of >neurotransmitters, the electrical impulses transferred along the axons >of neurons. That's like saying, "What distinguishes prose from random collections of words? Nothing. Both are made up of letters." From spiderman92 at attbi.com Thu Aug 22 08:10:45 2002 From: spiderman92 at attbi.com (Sunny Han) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 10:10:45 -0500 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020821182054.02a53b90@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020821232251.029b7ec0@localhost> Message-ID: <001601c249ee$16e892e0$f4892942@SUNNY1> > At 08:11 PM 8/21/2002 -0700, Frank Mayhar wrote: > >Steven Brust wrote: > > > Deffusing neurotransmitters through the soup, as you put it, happens > > during > > > a lot of activity that cannot be considered "thought" by any reasonable > > > definition. What distinguishes what we call thought from the other brain > > > activity? > > > >In a word, nothing. "Thought" _is_ the release and reuptake of > >neurotransmitters, the electrical impulses transferred along the axons > >of neurons. > We can't define "Thought" we can define the transfer of information between axons and neurons and evaulate the action potential needed to activate those cells... etc. But, "Thought" is the understanding of those messages by our brain, and no scientist can chemically or scientifically evaluate that process yet... From mam at theworld.com Thu Aug 22 08:23:14 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 11:23:14 -0400 Subject: Evolving language In-Reply-To: <000e01c2497f$470a3240$f4892942@SUNNY1> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Aug 2002, Sunny Han wrote: #However, programming languages are similar to natural languages in that they #started very simple, only what programmers need it, but with routes for #expansion as well. There is no evidence whatever that natural languages ever "started very simple", unless you accept texts such as Genesis 2:19-20 as evidence. # As technology developed and programmers needed a firmer #grasp and control on the operations of the machine, thing were added. Such #as C and C++. Further, many different programming languages can be traced #back to say... shell scripting, which is like many romantic languages have #similarites with Latin. Yes, the Romance (not "romantic") languages resemble each other and Latin somewhat as siblings resemble each other and their parents. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Aug 22 09:00:12 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 22 Aug 2002 11:00:12 -0500 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <200208220316.g7M3GrIJ053557@realtime.exit.com> References: <200208220316.g7M3GrIJ053557@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: Frank Mayhar writes: > David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > At the moment I can't get any closer to this than "I don't know". I > > have a fair amount of idea of what it feels like from the inside, and > > some anecdotal reports from other people on that topic. And I know a > > bit about what's been learned about the low-level mechanics of the > > brain. But I have *absolutely no clue* how those hook up in the > > middle. > > I'm beginning to suspect that the subjective perception (the "I" that > thinks and the self-awareness) is an illusion. So if that's the case, > they _don't_ "hook up in the middle." You go from the complexity of > the low-level stuff straight to the high-level stuff in one leap, since > in a way the high-level stuff doesn't really exist. (I know that I'm > overstating a bit but I think the point is valid.) That raises the always-troublesome issue of "an illusion *of what*", though. I like the phrase "Consciousness is an emergent phenomemon of the brain", but I'm not sure how much it really explains. But then we're up against the nastiest area of metaphysics, so I guess it's to be expected that things are a bit peculiar. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Aug 22 09:04:25 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 22 Aug 2002 11:04:25 -0500 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lav<>hantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <20020822042439.GA26119@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20020822042439.GA26119@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: Steve Simmons writes: > At 02:16 PM 8/17/2002 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > > Now, at *some* level thought occurs by diffusing neurotransmitters > > through the soup. If what's in our head *actually* works anything > > like a "neural network" (the modern technological concept) works, I'd > > say that "symbol" isn't a very relevent concept to it. > > Great Ghu, have we stumbled past the classic mind/brain question > without even discussing it? Not that I *want* to discuss it, just > want to put a stake in the ground saying we've skipped it. Be careful pounding that stake in, I hear there are land mines hereabouts. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Aug 22 09:05:58 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 22 Aug 2002 11:05:58 -0500 Subject: Evolving language In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mark A Mandel writes: > On Wed, 21 Aug 2002, Sunny Han wrote: > > #However, programming languages are similar to natural languages in that they > #started very simple, only what programmers need it, but with routes for > #expansion as well. > > There is no evidence whatever that natural languages ever "started very > simple", unless you accept texts such as Genesis 2:19-20 as evidence. There is also no evidence that anything with the depth and complexity we associate today with "natural languages" leaped up full-blown -- and I must say it seems extremely unlikely. But the lack of evidence should really interfere with it being cited as evidence, yes :-). -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From mam at theworld.com Thu Aug 22 09:16:16 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 12:16:16 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lav<>hantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <20020822042439.GA26119@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Steve Simmons wrote: #Great Ghu, have we stumbled past the classic mind/brain question #without even discussing it? Not that I *want* to discuss it, just #want to put a stake in the ground saying we've skipped it. Put the stake through that undead horse's heart. -- Mark A. Mandel From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Aug 22 09:31:31 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 09:31:31 -0700 Subject: Evolving language In-Reply-To: References: <000e01c2497f$470a3240$f4892942@SUNNY1> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020822092939.02a09260@localhost> At 11:23 AM 8/22/2002 -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote: > >Yes, the Romance (not "romantic") languages resemble each other I remember when I was eight or nine and overhearing conversations including my parents and some of my father's MLA colleagues. I couldn't quite figure what made a language "romantic" as opposed to "dramatic." From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Aug 22 09:41:40 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 12:41:40 -0400 Subject: Evolving language In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020822092939.02a09260@localhost> Message-ID: <08898F11-B5EE-11D6-9542-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 12:31 PM, Steven Brust wrote: > At 11:23 AM 8/22/2002 -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote: >> >> Yes, the Romance (not "romantic") languages resemble each other > > I remember when I was eight or nine and overhearing conversations > including my parents and some of my father's MLA colleagues. I > couldn't quite figure what made a language "romantic" as opposed to > "dramatic." > > Well you know those Romans, a romantic bunch From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Aug 22 09:48:34 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 09:48:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <200208221648.g7MGmIC26357@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > My favorite is this: "In America, people who try to > adhere to [the rules] run the risk of sounding > pretentious or haughty." So, uh... What's wrong with pretentious and haughty? Without them, we wouldn't have humble people!! :) Chris From scs at di.org Thu Aug 22 09:50:23 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 12:50:23 -0400 Subject: Evolving language Message-ID: <20020822165023.GA8623@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> IMHO (and maybe strike the H) the evolution of programming languages does not in the slightest resemble that of natural language. I've been a close follower of several language revisions (C, C++, perl, tcl), and there little similarity to what I see in natural language evolution. In fact, I deliberately chose the term 'revision' rather than 'evolution' for programming languages. You might be able to make a marginally better case that the establishment of *new* programming languages resembles natural language evolution, but I suspect that when I see your case I'd be willing to shoot it down. :-) -- "Deconstruction is [when] a work is interpreted as a statement about itself, using a literary version of the same cheap trick that Kurt Godel used to try to frighten mathematicians back in the thirties." -- Chip Morningstar in From scs at di.org Thu Aug 22 09:51:25 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 12:51:25 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <20020822165125.GA8651@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Michelle Goepp wrote: > My favorite is this: "In America, people who try to > adhere to [the rules] run the risk of sounding > pretentious or haughty." I was sure that line was going to end 'British' rather than 'pretentious or haughty'. -- "Deconstruction is [when] a work is interpreted as a statement about itself, using a literary version of the same cheap trick that Kurt Godel used to try to frighten mathematicians back in the thirties." -- Chip Morningstar in From books at bofh.com Thu Aug 22 10:32:34 2002 From: books at bofh.com (books at bofh.com) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 10:32:34 -0700 (MST) Subject: Evolving language In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 21 Aug 2002 21:49:30 -0400" References: <01KLEXA70GYK0013MG@chud.net> Message-ID: <01KLLGK7L8EC0017QT@chud.net> [Mark M] >Oh, sure. Contextual distinction. In Perl, the '#' character begins a >comment, but '$#foo', iirc, is an assignable variable meaning the >highest subscript value in the array @foo. I think in this case #, is a special character, that only has meaning in the comment case and the array indexing. I suspect that it's something that Larry put in for convienence, but I'm unsure how the interpreter/compiler handles it. (since you can accomplish the same thing with size(@array) -1 ). Then again, that seems like a bit of a kludge, and Larry doesn't generally kludge stuff. Regardless, in both cases it is not an operator but more of a variable. (In the comment case it isn't really a variable, but it's also not an operator.) Ok, so I broke out my _Bat_ book, and if you'll excuse some sweeping, and perhaps wrong, generalizations I'll explain why I think sendmail is the conterexample. Brief background: Sendmail rules are broken into 3 parts, only 2 of which are of real interest to us: Left Hand Side (LHS) [tab] Right Hand Side (RHS) [tab] Comment The LHS is used as a pattern match with the workspace to determine if a rule is invoked. The RHS rewrites the workspace. The sytax for the RHS is: Operator rule Discussion: Consider the rule matching an address where the workspace as 0 remaining tokes and you want to rewrite it once and return (don't continue within the rule) and you want to do it the rewrite on a lookup from the database. Here is an example of how this could be done: R$@ $@$(U $2 $@$1 $:$2.XXX $) In this case $@ is the matching string (I think operator would be incorrect here), the rewrite operator and finally the substitution determinator (again a string). This strikes me as an example of when a single 'symbol' is being used in multiple contexts, and thus is a counter-example. -Jot P.S: No warranty is made, expressed or implied about the validity of this in any sendmail configuration. It takes me a not inconsiderable amount of time, immersing myself in a particular problem, to really grok sendmail configurations. I've done it before, but not unlike hitting yourself in the testicles, it's not much fun. :) From seanp at ea.com Thu Aug 22 11:32:12 2002 From: seanp at ea.com (Penney, Sean) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 11:32:12 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A4C@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Michelle Goepp wrote: > My favorite is this: "In America, people who try to > adhere to [the rules] run the risk of sounding > pretentious or haughty." Steve Said: >I was sure that line was going to end 'British' rather than 'pretentious >or haughty'. I think it is a sad fact that in our schools kids who speak well, are good at math and answer questions in class are generally saddled with derogative labels - "brain, geek, nerd, etc". Kids will deliberately play dumb to be accepted by the mob. It's an even sadder fact that media, through TV and movies, supports and perpetuates this movement by portraying scholastic achievers as dorky, and athletic achievers as cool. This is especially obvious in the stereotypical portrayals of males and females. The coolest guys are dumb jocks, and the un_cool_est are computer dorks. The coolest girls are tall and beautiful and smart and class president, while the uncoolest are short dumpy underachievers, (or short dumpy overachievers - I guess to be forgiven for being a smart chick you have to be blonde and beautiful). From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Aug 22 11:39:24 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 11:39:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <200208221839.g7MId6C21436@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> "Penney, Sean" said: > I think it is a sad fact that in our schools kids who speak well, are good > at math and answer questions in class are generally saddled with derogative > labels - "brain, geek, nerd, etc". Kids will deliberately play dumb to be > accepted by the mob. It's an even sadder fact that media, through TV and > movies, supports and perpetuates this movement by portraying scholastic > achievers as dorky, and athletic achievers as cool. This is especially > obvious in the stereotypical portrayals of males and females. The coolest > guys are dumb jocks, and the un_cool_est are computer dorks. The coolest > girls are tall and beautiful and smart and class president, while the > uncoolest are short dumpy underachievers, (or short dumpy overachievers - I > guess to be forgiven for being a smart chick you have to be blonde and > beautiful). This is a sad-but-true state of affairs in our country (not sure about other countries.) And it is perpetuated by most all media outlets, politicians, and others (just look at the state of our libraries compared to the state of our stadiums.) As to the labels - There's always those who don't get good grades because they don't care, but STILL get labeled as "geeks, nerds, etc." I guess apathetic kids have to be lumped under another catagory; "Apathy" being much to "geeky" a term for the mob to use...:) Cheers, Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From scs at di.org Thu Aug 22 14:12:52 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 17:12:52 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <20020822211252.GA13085@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Michelle Goepp wrote: > My favorite is this: "In America, people who try to > adhere to [the rules] run the risk of sounding > pretentious or haughty." which cause me to write: >I was sure that line was going to end 'British' rather than 'pretentious >or haughty'. Sean Penney writes in response to me: > I think it is a sad fact that in our schools kids who speak well, are > good at math and answer questions in class are generally saddled with > derogative labels - "brain, geek, nerd, etc". At first read, it was difficult to see how Sean got from my statement to his. I now assume he's reacting to Michelle and I just happened to be the messenger. There are certianly cases like the ones Sean describes, but they are far from a general rule. There were some kids treated like that going back at least 40 years (I raise my hand as example), but for every example I can also think of a counter-example. In my graduating class (1970), the co-valedictorians were also a cheerleader and starting left guard on the football team. Neither exactly hid their light under a bushel. I see current examples of both types in my son and daughters high school classes. So I wouldn't sweat it. More often than not, smart is respected. And the situation hasn't changed in 40 years. -- "Deconstruction is [when] a work is interpreted as a statement about itself, using a literary version of the same cheap trick that Kurt Godel used to try to frighten mathematicians back in the thirties." -- Chip Morningstar in From spiderman92 at attbi.com Thu Aug 22 14:41:52 2002 From: spiderman92 at attbi.com (Sunny Han) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 16:41:52 -0500 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) References: <20020822211252.GA13085@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <000a01c24a24$ba59ca80$f4892942@SUNNY1> > > > I think it is a sad fact that in our schools kids who speak well, are > > good at math and answer questions in class are generally saddled with > > derogative labels - "brain, geek, nerd, etc". > Some students who are very smart, as I have observed in my current high school career, command much respect from other social groups. I also know quite a few kids who speak will, are good at math and answer questions in class that are very stupid indeed. From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Aug 22 14:51:57 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 17:51:57 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <000a01c24a24$ba59ca80$f4892942@SUNNY1> Message-ID: <60E97906-B619-11D6-BF1F-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 05:41 PM, Sunny Han wrote: >> >>> I think it is a sad fact that in our schools kids who speak well, are >>> good at math and answer questions in class are generally saddled with >>> derogative labels - "brain, geek, nerd, etc". >> > > Yes it is a shame. When you get to college, such traits being you respect from your fellow students and professors. I met my wife in college and she was one of those people who answered everything. From seanp at ea.com Thu Aug 22 14:54:37 2002 From: seanp at ea.com (Penney, Sean) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 14:54:37 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A53@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Michelle Goepp wrote: > My favorite is this: "In America, people who try to > adhere to [the rules] run the risk of sounding > pretentious or haughty." which caused me (Steve Simmons) to write: >I was sure that line was going to end 'British' rather than 'pretentious >or haughty'. Sean Penney writes in response to me: > I think it is a sad fact that in our schools kids who speak well, are > good at math and answer questions in class are generally saddled with > derogative labels - "brain, geek, nerd, etc". Then Steve responds: >At first read, it was difficult to see how Sean got from my statement >to his. I now assume he's reacting to Michelle and I just happened to >be the messenger. >There are certianly cases like the ones Sean describes, but they are >far from a general rule. There were some kids treated like that going >back at least 40 years (I raise my hand as example), but for every >example I can also think of a counter-example. In my graduating class >(1970), the co-valedictorians were also a cheerleader and starting left >guard on the football team. Neither exactly hid their light under a >bushel. I see current examples of both types in my son and daughters >high school classes. >So I wouldn't sweat it. More often than not, smart is respected. And >the situation hasn't changed in 40 years. I usually yank all addresses except dragaera.info from my reply-tos. Forgot to in this case I guess. I wasn't so much replying to you, Steve, as commenting on the line "In America, people who try to adhere to [the rules] run the risk of sounding pretentious or haughty" and your little joke - "or British" =) I know it's true, and it bugs me that our best and brightest school kids must labour under the threat of being berated by their peers because a few thugs are worried that maybe that skinny kid in the corner is smarter then they are. And our society encourages this type of behaviour by the nomenclature they use to label them. But I must disagree with your ordering of general to specific. Generally, scholarly kids are targets of abuse, but there are specific examples of kids who can be scholarly and athletic and accepted (my wife is one). Generally, having both brains and brawn is an excellent formula for success. But those are the exceptions, not the rule. And I believe the issue goes back much further then 40 years, and will no doubt continue for some time to come. Oh, sure, there is a current trend that celebrates the computer nerd, but they are still "nerds" or "geeks", even if they are trying to reclaim and redefine what those words mean. In general, the mob will ridicule those who make them feel small or stupid, because in general, the mob is small-minded and stupid. This is true here in Canada, where we have a less Darwinist approach to education and society then (we Social-Democratic Canadians perceive in) the US. (Those last two comments should be good for a few flames hehe) From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Aug 22 14:56:11 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 17:56:11 EDT Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: From seanp at ea.com Thu Aug 22 14:56:47 2002 From: seanp at ea.com (Penney, Sean) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 14:56:47 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A54@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> >> >>> I think it is a sad fact that in our schools kids who speak well, are >>> good at math and answer questions in class are generally saddled with >>> derogative labels - "brain, geek, nerd, etc". >> On Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 05:41 PM, Sunny Han wrote: >Yes it is a shame. When you get to college, such traits being you >respect from your fellow students and professors. I met my wife in >college and she was one of those people who answered everything. Absolutely. And the brainy kids get good jobs and run big companies. Still, 12 grades of being crapped on is no good for anyone. From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Aug 22 15:05:12 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 18:05:12 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A53@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Message-ID: <3AEF75B2-B61B-11D6-BF1F-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 05:54 PM, Penney, Sean wrote: > This is true here in Canada, where we have a less Darwinist approach to > education and society then (we Social-Democratic Canadians perceive > in) the > US. > > (Those last two comments should be good for a few flames hehe) > No flames from me. I have a cousin who lives near Toronto. If Canada wasn't so freakin' cold, I'd take his offer and move there :-) From seanp at ea.com Thu Aug 22 15:13:44 2002 From: seanp at ea.com (Penney, Sean) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:13:44 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A58@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Penney, Sean wrote: > This is true here in Canada, where we have a less Darwinist approach to > education and society then (we Social-Democratic Canadians perceive > in) the > US. > > (Those last two comments should be good for a few flames hehe) Chris Turkel said: >No flames from me. I have a cousin who lives near Toronto. If Canada >wasn't so freakin' cold, I'd take his offer and move there :-) Ah yes, the frozen north. You know in the States when a baby is born they give it a couple slaps until it starts crying, but here in our frozen wasteland we toss the newborn into a snowdrift and if it doesn't start crying we leave it there. That's why our hockey players are so nasty. Sean "Nanook of the North" Penney From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Aug 22 15:37:15 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 18:37:15 EDT Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: On thursday, 8-22, Sunny Han wrote: I think that in our schools kids who speak well, are good at math and answer questions in class are generally saddled with derogatory lables- I have always been that "geeky" kid. I was lucky and I never found myself the victim of taunts or discrimination. It was the exact opposite. My fellow students respected me more, valued and asked for my opinion, and generally liked me for who I was. Yes, I was a varsity athlete, yet I had a 4.0 average for high school. I went to a public high school so it wasn't like I was at a school for the gifted where everyone else was a "geek" too. The one thing that I did experience was a feeling of isolation from my fellow students. I did not feel like I fit in until I attended graduate school. Everyone there was a "geek", just like me. I think that sometimes the lines between catagorisers and catagorees can become blurred. I know a group of people that feels proud to call themselves 'nerds' and has developed an identity with the term. Yes, they are all computer programmers, and very talented at that. They are proud of thier brains and are unashamed to be 'nerds'. A name can only hurt you if you let it. John D. Barbato From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Aug 22 15:40:39 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:40:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <200208222240.g7MMeNC13878@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > John D. Barbato said: > A name can only hurt you if you let it. Hmm... This could, in fact, be argued... unfortunate as it may be. Tossing in a couple farthings, Chris "I feel if a person can't communicate, the very least they can do is shut up." ~ Tom Lehrer ~ From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Aug 22 15:44:53 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 18:44:53 EDT Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <60.24ceeb69.2a96c365@aol.com> Penney, sean wrote: This is true in Canada, where....Should be good for a few flames. I have never seen anyone flamed on this list. Believe me- there are some knock down, drag outs, but no one gets derided or flamed. I don't think I've written more than two comments that have gotton a general agreement, but this list is fun and the discussions stimulating. Half the fun is the disagreement. Say what you want, we are listening, we may not agree, and reply in kind, but you won't ever be belittled. John Barbato From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Aug 22 15:50:52 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 18:50:52 EDT Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <15e.12afebe1.2a96c4cc@aol.com> Chris.olson wrote :This could be argued... Why did i know you would disagree with me (grin)? Yeah, it could but ...oh all right, go ahead and argue it, thats what the list is for.(rubs hands toghther) John Barbato From seanp at ea.com Thu Aug 22 15:53:24 2002 From: seanp at ea.com (Penney, Sean) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:53:24 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A5B@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Penney, sean wrote: This is true in Canada, where....Should be good for a few flames. Randi Wrote: >I have never seen anyone flamed on this list. Believe me- there are some >knock down, drag outs, but no one gets derided or flamed. I don't think I've >written more than two comments that have gotton a general agreement, but this >list is fun and the discussions stimulating. Half the fun is the >disagreement. Say what you want, we are listening, we may not agree, and >reply in kind, but you won't ever be belittled. >John Barbato Thanks Randi (or John?). I've only been on the list a short while, but that does seem to be the case. It's a really good group, though I think we may tend to get a bit prickly on the details at times, and so sometimes forget the main point. But I suppose that's also why it's fun. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Aug 22 16:07:42 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 16:07:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <200208222307.g7MN7PC19542@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Chris.olson wrote :This could be argued... > > Why did i know you would disagree with me (grin)? Yeah, it could but ...oh > all right, go ahead and argue it, thats what the list is for.(rubs hands > toghther) Well, see... The reason I *didn't* argue it, was that it would probably bring up stuff that we shouldn't get into. However, I'll toss out an older one. The word "Communist" Nowadays, not as much of a problem, but a few years ago? (sorry, I'm speaking relative here. EVERYTHING is a few years ago, relatively speaking...:) And I wasn't picking on you!! Was not, was not!!! Uh... I just like arguing. Ranting, too, but that's usualy just to myself, unless someone is unfortunate or unlucky enough to actualy listen to me...(Shiver at the thought!!:) Chris "You will be required to do wrong no matter where you go. It is the basic condition of life, to be required to violate your own identity. At some time, every creature which lives must do so. It is the ultimate shadow, the defeat of creation; this is the curse at work, the curse that feeds on all life. Everywhere in the universe." - "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" - Philip K. Dick From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Aug 22 16:10:50 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 16:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <200208222310.g7MNAYC20225@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> "Penney, Sean" wrote: > Thanks Randi (or John?). I've only been on the list a short while, but that > does seem to be the case. It's a really good group, though I think we may > tend to get a bit prickly on the details at times, and so sometimes forget > the main point. But I suppose that's also why it's fun. Oh! And don't forget: This list has the actual AUTHOR on it, who actualy takes part in the discussions!! That's way cool... (Unless it's someone who's impersonating Steve... Hmmm... Has anyone checked him? He may be one of the Pod-People!!!) Going goofy today, Chris "So farewell hope, and with hope, farewell fear, Farewell remorse! All good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my Good" - John Milton - 'Paradise Lost' From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Aug 22 16:17:40 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 19:17:40 EDT Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <17f.d2f944f.2a96cb14@aol.com> Chris olson: Wrote: I just like arguing.. I just like to write things that make you want to argue. I don't take any of this personally. As I've seen and wrote myself, time and again---GOD this is fun :) John Barbato From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Aug 22 16:22:55 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 16:22:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <200208222322.g7MNMdC22810@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > John Barbato Wrote: > I just like to write things that make you want to argue. I don't take any of > this personally. As I've seen and wrote myself, time and again---GOD this is > fun :) You and everyone else I know... Why is it everyone I know likes pushing my buttons?!?!? It's because of my over-reactions, isn't it?!? Oh well. At least they get a laugh... Chris (who's having a blast with this list...:) From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Aug 22 16:26:32 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 19:26:32 EDT Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <14d.12d26059.2a96cd28@aol.com> Chris Olson wrote: However, I'll toss out an older one. The word "communist" Yeah, your right, ok. I understand that the J. Edgar Hoovers of the world are out there, but that is an extreme example. I must admit that I also feel this discussion will come to no good because of side tracking. So I will leave it at that. See you all next tuesday. John Barbato From holden at salome.uchicago.edu Thu Aug 22 16:42:24 2002 From: holden at salome.uchicago.edu (Brad) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 18:42:24 -0500 (CDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: (Randi128@aol.com) References: Message-ID: <200208222342.g7MNgOI25823@salome.uchicago.edu> >From: Randi128 at aol.com >I have always been that "geeky" kid. I was lucky and I never found myself the >victim of taunts or discrimination. It was the exact opposite. My fellow >students respected me more, valued and asked for my opinion, and generally >liked me for who I was. Yes, I was a varsity athlete, yet I had a 4.0 average ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ That's it. People are more likely to respect you if you are a good athelete. I went to a magnet high school, so about half of the people were "gifted and talented" or some such. There was still a strong pecking order. Some of the cool kids got really good grades, some didn't, but if you were an athelete, you got a lot more respect. Most of this, I think, comes from the self-confidence that comes from being atheletic. I have yet to figure out why this but ever since I started doing more physical activities, I have seen my confidence grow. There is something about doing something hard with my body, be it climing a mountain, running a race or making a nice pass, that affects me in ways that purely mental things do not. I think I would have been on the end of a lot less abuse in high school if I had just done some sport. People are much more likely to give you a hard time if they think you already have a low self-opinion. >A name can only hurt you if you let it. This is certainly true. But high school can really suck when a certain group of people goes out of their way to torment and isolate you, even if they never call you a name. I have dealt with some high school students in a special program (not so much for gifted and talented, but for people who want to learn, or at least have parents who want them to learn and whose kids are willing to try). Every student in the program played at least one sport, it was a requirement. These kids were from an urban high school with a rather different set of standards then, say, where I went. You did not get good grades (if you did, you hid it well). You would not be called a nerd, you would be physically attacked. I simply bring this up as an extreme example of the diversity of school cultures in this country. brad From tyan at twcny.rr.com Thu Aug 22 16:45:48 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: 22 Aug 2002 19:45:48 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A4C@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> References: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A4C@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Message-ID: "Penney, Sean" writes: > Michelle Goepp wrote: > > > My favorite is this: "In America, people who try to > > adhere to [the rules] run the risk of sounding > > pretentious or haughty." -snip- > I think it is a sad fact that in our schools kids who speak well, are good > at math and answer questions in class are generally saddled with derogative > labels - "brain, geek, nerd, etc". Kids will deliberately play dumb to be > accepted by the mob. -snip- Agreed. Now I'm going to go off on some tangents. Students at college often work hard to hide their accents and to stick to the local dialect because they fear being perceived as being stupid. For example, someone from Tennessee might try to excise "might could" from his speech. Plus, my linguistics professor told us an anecdote of how even linguists who should know better tend to perceive someone with a Southern accent as "cute" or "dumb" or both. But I had an acquaintance who spoke Mandarin Chinese with an Oklahoman accent. That was neat. I really like the way Chinese sounds with that accent. I recently read _Starlight 2_, a collection of SF stories edited by PNH. Two deserve mention for being great and, apropos to (of?) recent discussions here, having interesting linguistic connections: "Story of Your Life", by Ted Chiang "Congenital Agenesis of Gender Ideation", by Raphael Carter Do you go out and read them posthaste. - tky From seanp at ea.com Thu Aug 22 16:57:57 2002 From: seanp at ea.com (Penney, Sean) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 16:57:57 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A5C@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> >From: Randi128 at aol.com >liked me for who I was. Yes, I was a varsity athlete, yet I had a 4.0 average ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Brad said: >That's it. People are more likely to respect you if you are a good >athelete. [snip] >Most of this, I think, comes from the self-confidence that comes from being >atheletic. I have yet to figure out why this but ever since I started >doing more physical activities, I have seen my confidence grow. [snip] >You did not get good grades (if you did, you hid it well). You would not be called a >nerd, you would be physically attacked. I simply bring this up as an >extreme example of the diversity of school cultures in this country. I have to agree with Brad. My folks were both hippies who home-schooled me until my little brother was born, at which point I was enrolled in grade 5 (in the city no less!). I was pretty bookish and excited to be in school and proud to show off what I knew. Not a great combination. I was knocked around a lot. I joined the wrestling team in grade seven and started pushing weight, and kept it up until I graduated High School. I find it interesting that by grade nine I was no longer getting pushed around, yet I was still the same bookish fellow, albeit with a larger, more muscular frame, and the ability tie people into knots. Kids, especially the males, can be opportunistic little animals. Girls do it differently I guess - more emotional torture (I'm speculating here), but with the guys it was always a physical thing, but once they knew they no longer had an easy target or were in risk of being dropped on their head, they suddenly got real polite-like. I think it's vile and a sad testament to our culture. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Aug 22 17:15:02 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 17:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) Message-ID: <200208230014.g7N0EkC02986@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Kids, especially the males, can be opportunistic little animals. > Girls do it differently I guess - more emotional torture (I'm speculating > here), but with the guys it was always a physical thing, but once they knew > they no longer had an easy target or were in risk of being dropped on their > head, they suddenly got real polite-like. I think it's vile and a sad > testament to our culture. I never got super-muscular, but I DID get a best-friend who was a football player-type (odd, that we were friends), and that kept me from getting into too much trouble. Martial arts helped, but by then I never had a need to use it (and I'm grateful for that!). Chris From scs at di.org Thu Aug 22 17:09:41 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 20:09:41 -0400 Subject: Canadians (was OT . . . too damned many things to list) Message-ID: <20020823000941.GA16294@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Sean Penney writes: > This is true here in Canada, where we have a less Darwinist approach to > education and society then (we Social-Democratic Canadians perceive in) > the US. > > (Those last two comments should be good for a few flames hehe) Oh, Canadian jokes. Now *there's* a topic we can all agree on. :-) I'll start: William Shatner. :-) (obligatory disclaimer for [fill in as needed]). PS: Almost every summer for the past five years we've spent a long weekend with a couple in K-W, Ontario, eating fine food and seeing plays at Stratford. This past winter he took a job at Microsoft. We decided that a change of location shouldn't interfere with a happy tradition, so we spent a week in Seattle being tourists. Much to my shock, they'd learned many many new Canadian jokes from the other Canadian ex-pats now at MicroSoft. But IMHO, brevity remains the soul of wit. Ergo: Brian Mulrooney. -- "Deconstruction is [when] a work is interpreted as a statement about itself, using a literary version of the same cheap trick that Kurt Godel used to try to frighten mathematicians back in the thirties." -- Chip Morningstar in From spenn at shaw.ca Thu Aug 22 17:57:22 2002 From: spenn at shaw.ca (Sean) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 17:57:22 -0700 Subject: Canadians (was OT . . . too damned many things to list) References: <20020823000941.GA16294@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <002201c24a40$09eca020$883e5418@dontbenosy> Steve Simmons said: > Oh, Canadian jokes. Now *there's* a topic we can all agree on. :-) > > I'll start: William Shatner. > Hands off Bill! He's a Canadian cultural Icon, the grandfather of the Canadian School of Over Acting, the progenitor of alien - human couplings and a role-model for egomaniacs around the world. Why, without him, there would be no Michael J Fox, no Dan Ackroyd, Jason Priestly, Corey Haim... hmm. Ok. So maybe we would all have been better off without him. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Aug 22 17:55:43 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 17:55:43 -0700 Subject: Canadians (was OT . . . too damned many things to list) In-Reply-To: <002201c24a40$09eca020$883e5418@dontbenosy> References: <20020823000941.GA16294@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020822175522.0298f080@localhost> At 05:57 PM 8/22/2002 -0700, Sean wrote: >Steve Simmons said: > > Oh, Canadian jokes. Now *there's* a topic we can all agree on. :-) > > > > I'll start: William Shatner. > > > >Hands off Bill! He's a Canadian cultural Icon, the grandfather of the >Canadian School of Over Acting, the progenitor of alien - human couplings >and a role-model for egomaniacs around the world. Why, without him, there >would be no Michael J Fox, no Dan Ackroyd, Jason Priestly, Corey Haim... >hmm. Ok. So maybe we would all have been better off without him. What's wrong with Dan Ackroyd? From mam at theworld.com Thu Aug 22 17:58:34 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 20:58:34 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A58@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Penney, Sean wrote: #Sean "Nanook of the North" Penney Oh, sorry, I thought you were a guy. -- As I understand it, Nanook of the North, in the film of that name, was a woman. -- Mark A. Mandel From spiderman92 at attbi.com Thu Aug 22 18:04:25 2002 From: spiderman92 at attbi.com (Sunny Han) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 20:04:25 -0500 Subject: Canadians (was OT . . . too damned many things to list) References: <20020823000941.GA16294@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <5.1.0.14.0.20020822175522.0298f080@localhost> Message-ID: <000701c24a41$06aac620$f4892942@SUNNY1> >Hands off Bill! He's a Canadian cultural Icon, the grandfather of the > >Canadian School of Over Acting, the progenitor of alien - human couplings > >and a role-model for egomaniacs around the world. Why, without him, there > >would be no Michael J Fox, no Dan Ackroyd, Jason Priestly, Corey Haim... > >hmm. Ok. So maybe we would all have been better off without him. > > What's wrong with Dan Ackroyd? What's wrong with Michael J. Fox? From spenn at shaw.ca Thu Aug 22 18:00:29 2002 From: spenn at shaw.ca (Sean) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 18:00:29 -0700 Subject: Canadians (was OT . . . too damned many things to list) References: <20020823000941.GA16294@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <5.1.0.14.0.20020822175522.0298f080@localhost> Message-ID: <003801c24a40$79870790$883e5418@dontbenosy> > At 05:57 PM 8/22/2002 -0700, Sean wrote: > >Steve Simmons said: > > > Oh, Canadian jokes. Now *there's* a topic we can all agree on. :-) > > > > > > I'll start: William Shatner. > > > > > > >Hands off Bill! He's a Canadian cultural Icon, the grandfather of the > >Canadian School of Over Acting, the progenitor of alien - human couplings > >and a role-model for egomaniacs around the world. Why, without him, there > >would be no Michael J Fox, no Dan Ackroyd, Jason Priestly, Corey Haim... > >hmm. Ok. So maybe we would all have been better off without him. Steven Brust asked: > What's wrong with Dan Ackroyd? > > Did you see Blues Brothers 2000? Ok ok, so Dan doesn't belong on the list, being an icon himself. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Aug 22 18:00:25 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 18:00:25 -0700 Subject: Canadians (was OT . . . too damned many things to list) In-Reply-To: <000701c24a41$06aac620$f4892942@SUNNY1> References: <20020823000941.GA16294@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <5.1.0.14.0.20020822175522.0298f080@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020822175956.02a54bd0@localhost> At 08:04 PM 8/22/2002 -0500, Sunny Han wrote: > >Hands off Bill! He's a Canadian cultural Icon, the grandfather of the > > >Canadian School of Over Acting, the progenitor of alien - human couplings > > >and a role-model for egomaniacs around the world. Why, without him, >there > > >would be no Michael J Fox, no Dan Ackroyd, Jason Priestly, Corey Haim... > > >hmm. Ok. So maybe we would all have been better off without him. > > > > What's wrong with Dan Ackroyd? > >What's wrong with Michael J. Fox? He's the only human being with absolutely no Elvis in him. He's the anti-Elvis. Ask Mojo Nixon. From mam at theworld.com Thu Aug 22 18:04:44 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 21:04:44 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <200208222342.g7MNgOI25823@salome.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: [Randi128] #>A name can only hurt you if you let it. [Brad] #This is certainly true. Yeah... like poison ivy, bee stings, and rusty nails. The adults always told me, "Just don't let it get to you. Ignore them." I didn't have the self-possession to challenge them: "HOW? If I were epileptic, would you tell me to just not have a seizure? If I were diabetic, would you say I shouldn't let my blood sugar level get to me? Which muscle do I use to ignore them?" At least for some of us, this is certainly false. Or, thank God, WAS false... mostly "was". Is there nothing that ever pushes your buttons, even as an adult? How long did it take you to learn not to react visibly? -- Mark A. Mandel From spiderman92 at attbi.com Thu Aug 22 18:22:58 2002 From: spiderman92 at attbi.com (Sunny Han) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 20:22:58 -0500 Subject: Canadians (was OT . . . too damned many things to list) References: <20020823000941.GA16294@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <5.1.0.14.0.20020822175522.0298f080@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020822175956.02a54bd0@localhost> Message-ID: <002b01c24a43$9e12c650$f4892942@SUNNY1> > >What's wrong with Michael J. Fox? > > He's the only human being with absolutely no Elvis in him. He's the > anti-Elvis. Ask Mojo Nixon. > out of my top ten movies, Back to the Future Part I is like... number 4. He is the all singing, all dancing *movie star* of the world... From spenn at shaw.ca Thu Aug 22 18:35:12 2002 From: spenn at shaw.ca (Sean) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 18:35:12 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) References: Message-ID: <004001c24a45$531b92b0$883e5418@dontbenosy> > On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Penney, Sean wrote: > > #Sean "Nanook of the North" Penney > > Oh, sorry, I thought you were a guy. -- As I understand it, Nanook of > the North, in the film of that name, was a woman. > > -- Mark A. Mandel > > Gotta keep em guessing, y'know... From frank at exit.com Thu Aug 22 20:19:10 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 20:19:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Canadians (was OT . . . too damned many things to list) In-Reply-To: <002b01c24a43$9e12c650$f4892942@SUNNY1> Message-ID: <200208230319.g7N3JAWg005564@realtime.exit.com> Sunny Han wrote: > > >Michael J. Fox? > He > is the all singing, all dancing *movie star* of the world... . . . or not. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From frank at exit.com Thu Aug 22 20:22:39 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 20:22:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <001601c249ee$16e892e0$f4892942@SUNNY1> Message-ID: <200208230322.g7N3MdWx006399@realtime.exit.com> Sunny Han wrote: > We can't define "Thought" we can define the transfer of information between > axons and neurons and evaulate the action potential needed to activate those > cells... etc. But, "Thought" is the understanding of those messages by our > brain, and no scientist can chemically or scientifically evaluate that > process yet... "The understanding of those messages by our brain?!" Those neurons _are_ our brain, and those messages _are_ our thought. Granted, we don't yet understand how it all goes together and exactly how our consciousness arises from it, but it seems pretty clear that we are an emergent property ;-) of that mush in our heads. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From frank at exit.com Thu Aug 22 20:26:42 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 20:26:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200208230326.g7N3QgLR007386@realtime.exit.com> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Frank Mayhar writes: > > I'm beginning to suspect that the subjective perception (the "I" that > > thinks and the self-awareness) is an illusion. So if that's the case, > > they _don't_ "hook up in the middle." You go from the complexity of > > the low-level stuff straight to the high-level stuff in one leap, since > > in a way the high-level stuff doesn't really exist. (I know that I'm > > overstating a bit but I think the point is valid.) > That raises the always-troublesome issue of "an illusion *of what*", > though. Close your eyes. Think of yourself thinking (it's easier if one is accustomed to introspection). Feel yourself, your "self-ness," your sense of identity. _That_ would be the illusion. That sense of self-ness and identity. That sense of an "I" that perceives. (This is one idea, though, that I would really like to be wrong about, btw.) > I like the phrase "Consciousness is an emergent phenomemon of > the brain", but I'm not sure how much it really explains. I think it's pretty much a complicated way of saying "it just happens." > But then > we're up against the nastiest area of metaphysics, so I guess it's to > be expected that things are a bit peculiar. Um, yeah. :-P This is all a very good way to tie ones brain in large and very complicated knots. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From frank at exit.com Thu Aug 22 20:36:32 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 20:36:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020821232251.029b7ec0@localhost> Message-ID: <200208230336.g7N3aW8k009736@realtime.exit.com> Steven Brust wrote: > At 08:11 PM 8/21/2002 -0700, Frank Mayhar wrote: > >Steven Brust wrote: > > > Deffusing neurotransmitters through the soup, as you put it, happens > > during > > > a lot of activity that cannot be considered "thought" by any reasonable > > > definition. What distinguishes what we call thought from the other brain > > > activity? > > > >In a word, nothing. "Thought" _is_ the release and reuptake of > >neurotransmitters, the electrical impulses transferred along the axons > >of neurons. > > That's like saying, "What distinguishes prose from random collections of > words? Nothing. Both are made up of letters." I, um, disagree. Strongly. The "other brain activity" you spoke of, as distinguished from "thought" is by no means random. In fact, that "other brain activity" affects ones thought, both directly and indirectly. You seem to consider "thought" as distinct from other processes. I, on the other hand, lean much more to the view that it is part of a continuum, inseparable from the processes of which it is a part. There are all kinds of "thought," from stuff we have no conscious knowledge of at all, through stuff that appears in our consciousness as if instantly full-blown, through stuff we are only dimly aware of, to the kind of thing I'm doing now, as I quite consciously order and interpret my thoughts to write them down in this message. The low-level neuronal functions are by no means analogous to letters in an alphabet. They might be more closely analogous to individual computers in the huge seti at home project, or one of the other distributed-computation projects. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Aug 22 20:39:17 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 22 Aug 2002 22:39:17 -0500 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <200208222342.g7MNgOI25823@salome.uchicago.edu> References: <200208222342.g7MNgOI25823@salome.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: Brad writes: > This is certainly true. But high school can really suck when a > certain group of people goes out of their way to torment and isolate > you, even if they never call you a name. I have dealt with some high > school students in a special program (not so much for gifted and > talented, but for people who want to learn, or at least have parents > who want them to learn and whose kids are willing to try). Every > student in the program played at least one sport, it was a > requirement. These kids were from an urban high school with a rather > different set of standards then, say, where I went. You did not get > good grades (if you did, you hid it well). You would not be called a > nerd, you would be physically attacked. I simply bring this up as an > extreme example of the diversity of school cultures in this country. I attended my 30th higshchool reunion last weekend, and it was very interesting in several ways. First of all, I should say that I didn't have the typical hellish highschool experience so common among fans. The school was very decent at the time, which helped some. This was in Northfield MN, and a lot of the town people were faculty or staff at Carleton or St. Olaf, both quite good liberal arts colleges in town. (My father, and Steven's father while we're at it, both taught at Carleton; I later attended Carleton). But I think the big thing was that I was almost new to the school (I'd lived there through all of grade school, but my family spent 1966-67 in Switzerland; so when we came back, I started in 8th grade, and only knew a small number of the other 8th graders since they combined 4 elementary schools into the one junior high), and that I started learning to program coputers and getting serious about photography all at the same time. That kept me busy for 4 years solid. But it was also a very reasonable school environment. Cheerleaders and football players were in my advanced math classes. Members of the "Hiliners" dance line (tended to perform at athletic events) also played in the school orchestra. Physical violence was almost unheard of, and when it did turn up it tended to be between kids in the "hood" social group, not between than and somebody from another group. There were cetainly "cliques", in the sense that people tended to hang around with who they tended to hang around with, but they weren't that hostile, and they didn't follow the obvious social / political lines. One of the things that was most interesting at the reunion was how nice it was to see even people I'd had hardly anything to do with back then. And that seemed to be a common experience this time. At the 20th, 10 years back, I was more seeing people I'd actively thought about and wanted to see again, not so surprising (except that some of them actually showed up). -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Aug 22 20:57:25 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 20:57:25 -0700 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <200208230336.g7N3aW8k009736@realtime.exit.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020821232251.029b7ec0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020822205358.00a90270@localhost> At 08:36 PM 8/22/2002 -0700, Frank Mayhar wrote: >Steven Brust wrote: > > At 08:11 PM 8/21/2002 -0700, Frank Mayhar wrote: > > >Steven Brust wrote: > > > > Deffusing neurotransmitters through the soup, as you put it, happens > > > during > > > > a lot of activity that cannot be considered "thought" by any reasonable > > > > definition. What distinguishes what we call thought from the other > brain > > > > activity? > > > > > >In a word, nothing. "Thought" _is_ the release and reuptake of > > >neurotransmitters, the electrical impulses transferred along the axons > > >of neurons. > > > > That's like saying, "What distinguishes prose from random collections of > > words? Nothing. Both are made up of letters." > >I, um, disagree. Strongly. The "other brain activity" you spoke of, as >distinguished from "thought" is by no means random. Ummm...that's sort of my point. > There are all kinds >of "thought," from stuff we have no conscious knowledge of at all, through >stuff that appears in our consciousness as if instantly full-blown, through >stuff we are only dimly aware of, to the kind of thing I'm doing now, as I >quite consciously order and interpret my thoughts to write them down in this >message. Perhaps I should use the term "cognition." But, in any case, I don't see how we can even talk about this unless we are able to distinguish between what happens when, say, a random scent strikes my nose and I process it without even being aware of doing so, and, on the other hand, the processes that lead me to write this paragraph in exactly the way I did. These seem different in kind, not just in degree. Or, if it is a matter of degree, then quantity at some point transforms into quality, and that is just another way of saying the same thing. From bertowud at gator.net Thu Aug 22 21:48:34 2002 From: bertowud at gator.net (Robert Wood) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 00:48:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020822205358.00a90270@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020821232251.029b7ec0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020822205358.00a90270@localhost> Message-ID: <1230.24.136.62.181.1030078114.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> Steven Brust wrote: > Perhaps I should use the term "cognition." But, in any case, I don't > see how we can even talk about this unless we are able to distinguish > between what happens when, say, a random scent strikes my nose and I > process it without even being aware of doing so, and, on the other > hand, the processes that lead me to write this paragraph in exactly the > way I did. These seem different in kind, not just in degree. Or, if > it is a matter of degree, then quantity at some point transforms into > quality, and that is just another way of saying the same thing. Not that it matters, but I tend to agree with Steve here. I think of thought as the congitive process that is the result of all the other randomness and other stimuli that "pops" through my head. Robert From spenn at shaw.ca Thu Aug 22 22:47:51 2002 From: spenn at shaw.ca (Sean) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 22:47:51 -0700 Subject: Canadians (was OT . . . too damned many things to list) References: <20020823000941.GA16294@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <5.1.0.14.0.20020822175522.0298f080@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020822175956.02a54bd0@localhost> <002b01c24a43$9e12c650$f4892942@SUNNY1> Message-ID: <002501c24a68$9ee3f930$883e5418@dontbenosy> > > >What's wrong with Michael J. Fox? > > > > He's the only human being with absolutely no Elvis in him. He's the > > anti-Elvis. Ask Mojo Nixon. > > > out of my top ten movies, Back to the Future Part I is like... number 4. He > is the all singing, all dancing *movie star* of the world... Oh yes, he is. He definately is. http://nepit.visi.com/stuff/01_Mojo_Nixon_Skid_Roper_Elvis_Is_Everywhere.mp3 From spenn at shaw.ca Thu Aug 22 22:33:05 2002 From: spenn at shaw.ca (Sean) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 22:33:05 -0700 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) References: <200208222342.g7MNgOI25823@salome.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: <001b01c24a66$8e829f80$883e5418@dontbenosy> > > But it was also a very reasonable school environment. Cheerleaders > and football players were in my advanced math classes. Members of the > "Hiliners" dance line (tended to perform at athletic events) also > played in the school orchestra. Physical violence was almost unheard > of, and when it did turn up it tended to be between kids in the "hood" > social group, not between than and somebody from another group. > > There were cetainly "cliques", in the sense that people tended to hang > around with who they tended to hang around with, but they weren't that > hostile, and they didn't follow the obvious social / political lines. It's interesting how things have changed - depressing, really. You had a fairly benign HS experience in the late 60s - I wonder if it was typical? I had a moderately stressful one in the early 80s in the booming little city of Calgary (~500,000) - I think it was fairly typical, plus or minus N degrees of coolness. I was a private tutor in the late 90s in Vancouver, BC, and some of the senior HS kids would talk about having to have "backup" or they might get tooled. These were kids from upper middle class+ families. From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Aug 23 06:30:23 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 09:30:23 -0400 Subject: Canadians (was OT . . . too damned many things to list) In-Reply-To: <003801c24a40$79870790$883e5418@dontbenosy> Message-ID: <7A50EE55-B69C-11D6-A459-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Thursday, August 22, 2002, at 09:00 PM, Sean wrote: > >> At 05:57 PM 8/22/2002 -0700, Sean wrote: >>> Steve Simmons said: >>>> Oh, Canadian jokes. Now *there's* a topic we can all agree on. :-) >>>> >>>> I'll start: William Shatner. >>>> >>> >>> Hands off Bill! He's a Canadian cultural Icon, the grandfather of >>> the >>> Canadian School of Over Acting, the progenitor of alien - human >>> couplings >>> and a role-model for egomaniacs around the world. Why, without him, > there >>> would be no Michael J Fox, no Dan Ackroyd, Jason Priestly, Corey >>> Haim... >>> hmm. Ok. So maybe we would all have been better off without him. > > Steven Brust asked: >> What's wrong with Dan Ackroyd? >> >> > > Did you see Blues Brothers 2000? > > Ok ok, so Dan doesn't belong on the list, being an icon himself. > Coneheads the movie wasn't the pinnacle of cinema, either. From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Aug 23 08:35:44 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 23 Aug 2002 10:35:44 -0500 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <001b01c24a66$8e829f80$883e5418@dontbenosy> References: <200208222342.g7MNgOI25823@salome.uchicago.edu> <001b01c24a66$8e829f80$883e5418@dontbenosy> Message-ID: Sean writes: > > > > But it was also a very reasonable school environment. Cheerleaders > > and football players were in my advanced math classes. Members of the > > "Hiliners" dance line (tended to perform at athletic events) also > > played in the school orchestra. Physical violence was almost unheard > > of, and when it did turn up it tended to be between kids in the "hood" > > social group, not between than and somebody from another group. > > > > There were cetainly "cliques", in the sense that people tended to hang > > around with who they tended to hang around with, but they weren't that > > hostile, and they didn't follow the obvious social / political lines. > > It's interesting how things have changed - depressing, really. You had a > fairly benign HS experience in the late 60s - I wonder if it was > typical? Quite possibly not. A lot of SF fans around my age had the bad canonical experience people talke about. > I had a moderately stressful one in the early 80s in the booming > little city of Calgary (~500,000) - I think it was fairly typical, > plus or minus N degrees of coolness. I was a private tutor in the > late 90s in Vancouver, BC, and some of the senior HS kids would talk > about having to have "backup" or they might get tooled. These were > kids from upper middle class+ families. There *is* also the question of how much of that was "style" as opposed to real worry. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From spiderman92 at attbi.com Fri Aug 23 16:16:19 2002 From: spiderman92 at attbi.com (Sunny Han) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 18:16:19 -0500 Subject: The World as We Know It. Message-ID: <004301c24afb$16900860$f4892942@SUNNY1> Yesterday evening, a child was shot in melee shootout in an urban part of Minnesota. The Law Enforcement Officers were raiding a house suspected of harboring drug dealers and large quantites of narcotics. An innocent by-stander, a child, minor, was shot in the "confusion." The police officers claim that the child was hit by a ricochet off of a car. However, the family claims that based on the information given to them by the hospital, it must have been a direct and delibrate shot. The Police department is not taking responsibility for this issue at the moment. What do you guys think?? Sunny From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Aug 23 16:13:15 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 16:13:15 -0700 Subject: The World as We Know It. In-Reply-To: <004301c24afb$16900860$f4892942@SUNNY1> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020823161258.00ab2ec0@localhost> At 06:16 PM 8/23/2002 -0500, Sunny Han wrote: >Yesterday evening, a child was shot in melee shootout in an urban part of >Minnesota. The Law Enforcement Officers were raiding a house suspected of >harboring drug dealers and large quantites of narcotics. An innocent >by-stander, a child, minor, was shot in the "confusion." The police >officers claim that the child was hit by a ricochet off of a car. However, >the family claims that based on the information given to them by the >hospital, it must have been a direct and delibrate shot. The Police >department is not taking responsibility for this issue at the moment. What >do you guys think?? I think, "Don't get me started." From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Aug 23 16:17:38 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 16:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The World as We Know It. Message-ID: <200208232317.g7NNHMC12824@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > At 06:16 PM 8/23/2002 -0500, Sunny Han wrote: > > The Police > >department is not taking responsibility for this issue at the moment. What > >do you guys think?? > > I think, "Don't get me started." Uh... Hear, hear!! And my other personality thirds the motion... Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From holden at salome.uchicago.edu Fri Aug 23 16:19:00 2002 From: holden at salome.uchicago.edu (Brad) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 18:19:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: The World as We Know It. In-Reply-To: <004301c24afb$16900860$f4892942@SUNNY1> (spiderman92@attbi.com) References: <004301c24afb$16900860$f4892942@SUNNY1> Message-ID: <200208232319.g7NNJ0p27565@salome.uchicago.edu> >However, the family claims that based on the information given to them = >by the hospital, it must have been a direct and delibrate shot. The = >Police department is not taking responsibility for this issue at the = >moment. What do you guys think?? Ah! That was the critical bit missing in the wire feeds I read today. Apparently, whether the child was deliberately shot or not, a large number of people believed it was. I find it disheartening that yet another city has such a horrid relationship with it's police force. brad From rone at ennui.org Fri Aug 23 16:30:26 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 16:30:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The World as We Know It. In-Reply-To: <004301c24afb$16900860$f4892942@SUNNY1> Message-ID: <20020823233026.38BCB26E25@boredom.ennui.org> Sunny Han writes: Yesterday evening, a child was shot in melee shootout in an urban part of Minnesota. The Law Enforcement Officers were raiding a house suspected of harboring drug dealers and large quantites of narcotics. An innocent by-stander, a child, minor, was shot in the "confusion." The police officers claim that the child was hit by a ricochet off of a car. However, the family claims that based on the information given to them by the hospital, it must have been a direct and delibrate shot. The Police department is not taking responsibility for this issue at the moment. What do you guys think?? I think, "What does this have to do with the price of dreamgrass in Adrilankha?" rone -- {Reagan's} presidency always reminded me of a remark made by a woman to Heywood Broun following Secretariat's victory in the Triple Crown. After the trauma of Vietnam and Watergate, she said, Secretariat had "restored her faith in humanity." I like to think Reagan was the Secretariat of the eighties. - Garry Trudeau From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Aug 23 16:32:10 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 19:32:10 -0400 Subject: The World as We Know It. In-Reply-To: <20020823233026.38BCB26E25@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <8BCF7F8A-B6F0-11D6-BAB6-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Friday, August 23, 2002, at 07:30 PM, magical truthsaying bastard roney! wrote: > Sunny Han writes: > Yesterday evening, a child was shot in melee shootout in an urban > part of Minnesota. The Law Enforcement Officers were raiding a house > suspected of harboring drug dealers and large quantites of > narcotics. An innocent by-stander, a child, minor, was shot in the > "confusion." The police officers claim that the child was hit by a > ricochet off of a car. However, the family claims that based on the > information given to them by the hospital, it must have been a > direct and delibrate shot. The Police department is not taking > responsibility for this issue at the moment. What do you guys > think?? > > I think, "What does this have to do with the price of dreamgrass in > Adrilankha?" > > rone I agree, though sad, this discussion belongs elsewhere. From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Fri Aug 23 17:57:19 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 17:57:19 -0700 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815234105.029ceb80@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020816171651.029d7b30@localhost> Message-ID: <20020824005719.GA30658@ofb.net> On Sat, Aug 17, 2002 at 02:16:36PM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Now, at *some* level thought occurs by diffusing neurotransmitters > through the soup. If what's in our head *actually* works anything > like a "neural network" (the modern technological concept) works, I'd > say that "symbol" isn't a very relevent concept to it. I'd disagree. Nothing stops symbols from being shunted around in, or implemented in, a neural network. And one book had specific examples where a neural net was trained in the standard way, and then the resulting black box was examined very carefully, and lo, you could see the logical rules right there. They're obfuscated, not magical. -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Fri Aug 23 18:00:48 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 18:00:48 -0700 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <200208230326.g7N3QgLR007386@realtime.exit.com> References: <200208230326.g7N3QgLR007386@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <20020824010048.GB30658@ofb.net> On Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 08:26:42PM -0700, Frank Mayhar wrote: > Close your eyes. Think of yourself thinking (it's easier if one is > accustomed to introspection). Feel yourself, your "self-ness," your > sense of identity. > > _That_ would be the illusion. That sense of self-ness and identity. That > sense of an "I" that perceives. Maybe. But I'll give you another picture: low-level stuff happens in the brain. Some of it gets reported to the high-level 'self' system, which then thinks it's responsible for it all. It may often be wrong, but the self-system which really is monitoring a bunch of stuff does seem to be able to exert influence on low-level processes, which is pretty close to making decisions. It's not all soup. Or at least some soup is more equal than other soup. Screw that, not equal at all... -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Fri Aug 23 18:07:05 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 18:07:05 -0700 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <15709.10975.443706.233911@hagbard.io.com> References: <15709.10975.443706.233911@hagbard.io.com> Message-ID: <20020824010705.GC30658@ofb.net> On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 11:39:59AM -0500, Joshua Kronengold wrote: > Actually, this is a pretty good example of why genralizing a language > is bad -- by adding a "reply to: list" field, lists tend to blur the > semantic distinction between "reply to the whole list" and "reply to > just the person who sent this", thus making it harder, in general, to I think the solution is to get smarter mailers. I squawked at first when I came on the list, but really it's no big deal. For lists like this I can define the address for mutt, and then use 'L' instead of 'r' to reply, so it'll mail the list address, not the author. For the more common IME lists, where Reply-To: is set, when I hit 'r' it asks if I want to mail to the list; if I say no, it'll mail to the author instead. 'group-reply', where you reply to everyone in the headers, is distinct from either of these. So mutt's introducted more distinctions, and therefore rules. -xx- Damien X-) From nytemuse at auros.org Fri Aug 23 18:09:15 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 18:09:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Topics? Message-ID: So, I'm curious, being rather new on the list...I've been on several other lists and once you're on them for a long period of time, certain topics keep getting brought up and done to death. I've had several ideas for things that might be interesting to discuss that are at least somewhat related to Brust or Dragaera or something, but I'm not 100% sure if they're taboo or have been done to death. So, if there are any topics or questions that people who have been here a while would specifically NOT like to see, please let me know, either on or offlist? Then, based on those, I'll try and get some Brust or speculative fiction-related discussion started. ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From dar at horusinc.com Fri Aug 23 18:21:51 2002 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 20:21:51 -0500 Subject: Topics? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ok, Has anyone else read _The Club Dumas_ (let's forget the movie please) and/or _The Fencing Master_ by Arturo Perez-Reverte? The recent thread on fencing and the whole Dumas homage has me wondering what other opinions were. I enjoyed both a great deal, and would happily suggest them to anyone who hasn't read them. David > So, I'm curious, being rather new on the list...I've been on several other > lists and once you're on them for a long period of time, certain topics > keep getting brought up and done to death. I've had several ideas for > things that might be interesting to discuss that are at least somewhat > related to Brust or Dragaera or something, but I'm not 100% sure if > they're taboo or have been done to death. > So, if there are any topics or questions that people who have been here a > while would specifically NOT like to see, please let me know, either on or > offlist? Then, based on those, I'll try and get some Brust or speculative > fiction-related discussion started. From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Fri Aug 23 18:24:37 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 18:24:37 -0700 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length In-Reply-To: <00a401c2463d$bb5897d0$883e5418@dontbenosy> References: <20020817222047.GB19109@galadriel.alyra.org> <00a401c2463d$bb5897d0$883e5418@dontbenosy> Message-ID: <20020824012437.GD30658@ofb.net> > Kat said: > > That being said, I'm still not clear to what extent the crossbow (outlawed > > at some point by... the Pope? not sure... because it was so effective I'd just read "banned by the Church". > > against heavy armor [so I have to ask here - was the crossbow really more > > effective than the longbow because of its massive draw weights, or some I think the crossbow is easier to train people to use, and at the heavy end might be able to pack in more power, and from weaker people -- you pump lots of energy into a spring, and can use a crank, even if you're not strong enough to move stuff by brute muscle. Longbows have a faster rate of fire, but you're kind of training for life [insert paeans to the independent yeoman class of England, with spare time] and all the female archers of fantasy are kind of silly. You need upper body strength to bend that thing. I mean, sure, some women, but having it be a female specialty (cf. Queens Susan and Lucy of Narnia) doesn't work. -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Fri Aug 23 18:29:18 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 18:29:18 -0700 Subject: Topics? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020824012918.GE30658@ofb.net> On Fri, Aug 23, 2002 at 06:09:15PM -0700, Nytemuse wrote: > So, I'm curious, being rather new on the list...I've been on several other The list itself isn't all that old. Go ahead, start a new tradition. -xx- Damien X-) From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Aug 23 19:11:26 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 21:11:26 -0500 Subject: Topics? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020824021126.GD25487@infodancer.org> On Fri, Aug 23, 2002 at 08:21:51PM -0500, David Rodemaker wrote: > Has anyone else read _The Club Dumas_ (let's forget the movie please) and/or > _The Fencing Master_ by Arturo Perez-Reverte? Yes, both; they were well done. The movie was ALSO well done, only it bore very little relationship to the book. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Aug 23 19:14:13 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 21:14:13 -0500 Subject: The World as We Know It. In-Reply-To: <004301c24afb$16900860$f4892942@SUNNY1> References: <004301c24afb$16900860$f4892942@SUNNY1> Message-ID: <20020824021413.GE25487@infodancer.org> On Fri, Aug 23, 2002 at 06:16:19PM -0500, Sunny Han wrote: > Yesterday evening, a child was shot in melee shootout in an > urban part of Minnesota. The Law Enforcement Officers were > raiding a house suspected of harboring drug dealers and large > quantites of narcotics. An innocent by-stander, a child, minor, > was shot in the "confusion." The police officers claim that the > child was hit by a ricochet off of a car. However, the family > claims that based on the information given to them by the > hospital, it must have been a direct and delibrate shot. The > Police department is not taking responsibility for this issue at > the moment. What do you guys think?? I think you need to wrap your paragraphs around the 72nd column or so. Other than that, though.... I think it's a horrible, inevitable consequence of the police state we now indisputably live in, complete with a "war" on segments of our own population and fully militarized law enforcement. Deliberate or not... it is something we will either need to get used to, or force the government to change. And the window for freedom is shrinking fast. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Fri Aug 23 19:17:54 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 22:17:54 -0400 Subject: Tiassa or Lyorn Message-ID: <3D66ECD2.28265F18@earthlink.net> This has been bugging me for some time now. In one of the Vlad books, Vlad refers to Daro, Countess of Whitecrest, as a Lyorn, whereas Paarfi in 500YA explicitly states that, while she might wear Lyorn colors, she is in fact a Tiassa. I'm inclined to side with Paarfi on this one, but I'm not sure why Vlad would think she's a Lyorn, other than coming to that conclusion after having seen her in her Lyorn colors. Anyone have any ideas? Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From davids at kithrup.com Fri Aug 23 19:32:44 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 19:32:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The *real* thing? Message-ID: Can we post requests? Well, I suppose we can post, but the answer might easily be "no". ;-) I was browsing through "Phoenix Guards" in order to make sure I'd spelled "Kathana e'Marish'Chala" correctly, and I happened across the paragraph where there being attacked in an inn, and Tazenda declaims this ridiculously long line, and then discharges her flashstone. One of the things I'd like to see is the characters of the Khaavren romances through any eyes that aren't Paarfi; how they talk and how they act. Yes, we've seen Khaavren a little through Vlad's eyes, but I'd like to see more, and possibly by a *reliable* narrator. Man, Paarfi is *ever* so much *long-winded*. It's fun if you like that sort of thing, but I know of two people who liked the story of TPG but hated the style... From dar at horusinc.com Fri Aug 23 19:37:26 2002 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 21:37:26 -0500 Subject: Topics? In-Reply-To: <20020824021126.GD25487@infodancer.org> Message-ID: > > Has anyone else read _The Club Dumas_ (let's forget the movie > please) and/or > > _The Fencing Master_ by Arturo Perez-Reverte? > > Yes, both; they were well done. What did you think of TFM? Why did you like it? The novel was quite different in style and tone from TCD (and closer to the _The Seville Communion_) and in some ways I enjoyed it more. The action seemed more concentrated to me, but that may have been a bit of an illusion due to the fencing aspects. I also haven't read TCD in about 3 years. > The movie was ALSO well done, only it bore very little > relationship to the book. Yes, I agree. But didn't want to get sucked into a debate on that. I thought the movie was suprisingly good, and a excellent adaptation of a complex novel to the screen. ObD? Dumas and fencing masters? Well Duh! But also: I could picture Vlad walking into any of these books and making a wry, throw-away comment and then wallking off. These strike me as very 'Brustian' in tone. David From tyan at twcny.rr.com Fri Aug 23 19:52:17 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: 23 Aug 2002 22:52:17 -0400 Subject: Topics? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nytemuse writes: > So, I'm curious, being rather new on the list...I've been on several > other lists and once you're on them for a long period of time, > certain topics keep getting brought up and done to death. -snip- I wouldn't worry about this too much. First, this is a fairly new mailing list. Second, if a topic has been done to death, then presumably you won't get many replies, so it will quickly die off anyway without seriously annoying anyone. Third, as long as threads have good Subject headers, people who aren't interested can skip stuff they're not interested it. > So, if there are any topics or questions that people who have been > here a while would specifically NOT like to see, please let me know, > either on or offlist? Then, based on those, I'll try and get some > Brust or speculative fiction-related discussion started. One thing you might consider is flow control. Throw the topics out one at a time instead of simultaneously. Once one discussion and its spawn die down, then bring out the next topic. - tky From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Aug 23 19:44:47 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 21:44:47 -0500 Subject: Topics? In-Reply-To: References: <20020824021126.GD25487@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20020824024447.GF25487@infodancer.org> On Fri, Aug 23, 2002 at 09:37:26PM -0500, David Rodemaker wrote: > > > Has anyone else read _The Club Dumas_ (let's forget the movie > > please) and/or > > > _The Fencing Master_ by Arturo Perez-Reverte? > > Yes, both; they were well done. > What did you think of TFM? Why did you like it? The novel was quite > different in style and tone from TCD (and closer to the _The Seville > Communion_) and in some ways I enjoyed it more. The action seemed more > concentrated to me, but that may have been a bit of an illusion due to the > fencing aspects. The action was more concentrated, I agree. Also there was more OF it. > I also haven't read TCD in about 3 years. Nor I for some time; I don't recall exactly when. > > The movie was ALSO well done, only it bore very little > > relationship to the book. > Yes, I agree. But didn't want to get sucked into a debate on that. I thought > the movie was suprisingly good, and a excellent adaptation of a complex > novel to the screen. Well, it succeeded only by cutting large parts of the book out, and adding in its own explanations to some things. > I could picture Vlad walking into any of these books and making a wry, > throw-away comment and then wallking off. These strike me as very 'Brustian' > in tone. Eh. I didn't see this as much. Let me put it this way -- I am sure Brust could write a scene where Vlad walked into those worlds, make some comments, and walked out, and the scene would fit perfectly into the voice of the book -- but that's because he's very flexible in his authorial voice. ;) It would be much easier to place Khaavren into TFM, and/or Sethra into TCD. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Aug 23 19:48:32 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 21:48:32 -0500 Subject: Tiassa or Lyorn In-Reply-To: <3D66ECD2.28265F18@earthlink.net> References: <3D66ECD2.28265F18@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20020824024832.GG25487@infodancer.org> On Fri, Aug 23, 2002 at 10:17:54PM -0400, Jose Marquez wrote: > This has been bugging me for some time now. In one of the Vlad books, > Vlad refers to Daro, Countess of Whitecrest, as a Lyorn, whereas Paarfi > in 500YA explicitly states that, while she might wear Lyorn colors, she > is in fact a Tiassa. I'm inclined to side with Paarfi on this one, but > I'm not sure why Vlad would think she's a Lyorn, other than coming to > that conclusion after having seen her in her Lyorn colors. Anyone have > any ideas? As I believe Brust has said before, sometimes Vlad is a moron. (He misses the Sorceress In Green's House in Yendi, for example; while she is a Yendi, which explains part of it, he holds to his conviction no matter how his friends try to contradict him. I'm sure there are other examples, too.) -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Aug 23 20:01:51 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 20:01:51 -0700 Subject: Tiassa or Lyorn In-Reply-To: <3D66ECD2.28265F18@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020823200133.02a96c20@localhost> At 10:17 PM 8/23/2002 -0400, Jose Marquez wrote: >This has been bugging me for some time now. In one of the Vlad books, >Vlad refers to Daro, Countess of Whitecrest, as a Lyorn, whereas Paarfi >in 500YA explicitly states that, while she might wear Lyorn colors, she >is in fact a Tiassa. I'm inclined to side with Paarfi on this one, but >I'm not sure why Vlad would think she's a Lyorn, other than coming to >that conclusion after having seen her in her Lyorn colors. Anyone have >any ideas? My theory is the same as yours. From spiderman92 at attbi.com Fri Aug 23 20:37:26 2002 From: spiderman92 at attbi.com (Sunny Han) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 22:37:26 -0500 Subject: Round or Flat References: <200208222342.g7MNgOI25823@salome.uchicago.edu><001b01c24a66$8e829f80$883e5418@dontbenosy> Message-ID: <000701c24b1f$90ea0380$f4892942@SUNNY1> is Dragaera a flat world or a round one...? Sunny From grapawy at yahoo.com Fri Aug 23 20:51:14 2002 From: grapawy at yahoo.com (Gregory Rapawy) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 20:51:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The *real* thing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020824035114.5144.qmail@web21110.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Silberstein wrote: [...] > One of the things I'd like to see is the characters > of the Khaavren romances through any eyes that > aren't Paarfi; how they talk and how they act. Yes, > we've seen Khaavren a little through Vlad's eyes, but > I'd like to see more, and possibly by a *reliable* > narrator. I don't know about the rest of your request, but I suspect you will have much difficulty convincing our Estimable Author to create anything resembling a reliable narrator. He seems to have far too much fun playing with different sources of unreliability. In any event, although I certainly recognize that this is not a democracy (and would not want it to be one), I cast my nonexistent vote for more Paarfi, not less. In fact, considering how well-known Vlad has become, or is likely about to become, after the events in _Phoenix_ and _Issola_, I think he runs every risk of having romances written about him. Perhaps his travels in the East, in the style of _Monte Cristo_? -- Greg __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Aug 23 21:16:36 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 23 Aug 2002 23:16:36 -0500 Subject: MN vanity plate DEVERA? Message-ID: <1030162596.12331.TMDA@dd-b.net> Got this from a friend this evening: On my way in to work today, I briefly followed a nice shiny red pickup with interesting Minnesota vanity plates: "DEVERA" Anybody you know? And I don't. Anybody else happen to know? -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Aug 23 21:27:24 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 21:27:24 -0700 Subject: The *real* thing? In-Reply-To: <20020824035114.5144.qmail@web21110.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020823212617.029f6870@localhost> At 08:51 PM 8/23/2002 -0700, Gregory Rapawy wrote: > >I don't know about the rest of your request, but I >suspect you will have much difficulty convincing our >Estimable Author to create anything resembling a >reliable narrator. He seems to have far too much fun >playing with different sources of unreliability. That, and I'd have trouble believing anyone could possibly *be* a reliable narrator for anything as long as a novel. From davids at kithrup.com Fri Aug 23 21:38:15 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 21:38:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The *real* thing? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020823212617.029f6870@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: >At 08:51 PM 8/23/2002 -0700, Gregory Rapawy wrote: >> >>I don't know about the rest of your request, but I >>suspect you will have much difficulty convincing our >>Estimable Author to create anything resembling a >>reliable narrator. He seems to have far too much fun >>playing with different sources of unreliability. > >That, and I'd have trouble believing anyone could possibly *be* a >reliable narrator for anything as long as a novel. > Wasn't _Athyra_ from the POV of an omniscient narrator? I would settle for "slightly more reliable". ;-) It wouldn't have to be a whole novel, either. In fact, what I had in mind was to have some included notes or correspondence or a transcript excerpt at the end of one of the romances, showing at the very least a different perspective of the characters. But what the hell do I know, anyway? From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Aug 23 21:38:20 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 23 Aug 2002 23:38:20 -0500 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <20020824005719.GA30658@ofb.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020815234105.029ceb80@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20020816171651.029d7b30@localhost> <20020824005719.GA30658@ofb.net> Message-ID: Damien Sullivan writes: > On Sat, Aug 17, 2002 at 02:16:36PM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > > Now, at *some* level thought occurs by diffusing neurotransmitters > > through the soup. If what's in our head *actually* works anything > > like a "neural network" (the modern technological concept) works, I'd > > say that "symbol" isn't a very relevent concept to it. > > I'd disagree. Nothing stops symbols from being shunted around in, or > implemented in, a neural network. And one book had specific examples where a > neural net was trained in the standard way, and then the resulting black box > was examined very carefully, and lo, you could see the logical rules right > there. They're obfuscated, not magical. I'm not surprised they might be findable. I wonder, though, if any properties of neural networks *guarantee* that they're findable? At one level we understand neural networks very well (after all most of them are software simulations, quite deterministic), but at other levels I don't think we understand them *at all*. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Aug 23 21:40:42 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 23 Aug 2002 23:40:42 -0500 Subject: Topics? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nytemuse writes: > So, I'm curious, being rather new on the list...I've been on several other > lists and once you're on them for a long period of time, certain topics > keep getting brought up and done to death. I've had several ideas for > things that might be interesting to discuss that are at least somewhat > related to Brust or Dragaera or something, but I'm not 100% sure if > they're taboo or have been done to death. > So, if there are any topics or questions that people who have been here a > while would specifically NOT like to see, please let me know, either on or > offlist? Then, based on those, I'll try and get some Brust or speculative > fiction-related discussion started. Well, the list was only started back in May, so we haven't have time for a *huge* amount of history yet. While there's a fair amount of it, you can go through the archives at dragaera.info to see what's been discussed (if you stick to the thread view you can see general topics pretty quickly). -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Aug 23 21:43:18 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 23 Aug 2002 23:43:18 -0500 Subject: Topics? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "David Rodemaker" writes: > Ok, > > Has anyone else read _The Club Dumas_ (let's forget the movie please) and/or > _The Fencing Master_ by Arturo Perez-Reverte? > > The recent thread on fencing and the whole Dumas homage has me wondering > what other opinions were. > > I enjoyed both a great deal, and would happily suggest them to anyone who > hasn't read them. I don't know about them, but they sound interesting. Modern historical fiction, or actual period fiction? Currently in print? Hmmm, yes, I see, currently in print, and a number of other titles too. But it only gives edition dates, not copyright, so I'm not so clear on the first question still. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From rone at ennui.org Fri Aug 23 22:22:32 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 22:22:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Round or Flat In-Reply-To: <000701c24b1f$90ea0380$f4892942@SUNNY1> Message-ID: <20020824052232.BF04926E25@boredom.ennui.org> Sunny Han writes: is Dragaera a flat world or a round one...? Ha. Now i'm trying to imagine Vlad as a member of Ankh-Morpork's Assassin Guild. rone -- {Reagan's} presidency always reminded me of a remark made by a woman to Heywood Broun following Secretariat's victory in the Triple Crown. After the trauma of Vietnam and Watergate, she said, Secretariat had "restored her faith in humanity." I like to think Reagan was the Secretariat of the eighties. - Garry Trudeau From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Fri Aug 23 22:46:24 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 01:46:24 -0400 Subject: Round or Flat References: <20020824052232.BF04926E25@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <3D671DB0.3085D29F@earthlink.net> "magical truthsaying bastard roney!" wrote: > > Sunny Han writes: > is Dragaera a flat world or a round one...? > > Ha. Now i'm trying to imagine Vlad as a member of Ankh-Morpork's > Assassin Guild. Hmmm. A Brust/Pratchett collaboration could be extremely entertaining... Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Fri Aug 23 22:48:44 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 01:48:44 -0400 Subject: The *real* thing? References: Message-ID: <3D671E3C.A3F90488@earthlink.net> David Silberstein wrote: > > On Fri, 23 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: > > >At 08:51 PM 8/23/2002 -0700, Gregory Rapawy wrote: > >> > >>I don't know about the rest of your request, but I > >>suspect you will have much difficulty convincing our > >>Estimable Author to create anything resembling a > >>reliable narrator. He seems to have far too much fun > >>playing with different sources of unreliability. > > > >That, and I'd have trouble believing anyone could possibly *be* a > >reliable narrator for anything as long as a novel. > > > > Wasn't _Athyra_ from the POV of an omniscient narrator? > > I would settle for "slightly more reliable". ;-) I actually enjoy the unreliability of Vlad and Paarfi. It's a part of their personality to embellish or see things from different perspectives, and besides, it generates discussion. *grin* Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From spenn at shaw.ca Fri Aug 23 23:38:14 2002 From: spenn at shaw.ca (Sean) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 23:38:14 -0700 Subject: Round or Flat References: <20020824052232.BF04926E25@boredom.ennui.org> <3D671DB0.3085D29F@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001101c24b38$d2d98e00$883e5418@dontbenosy> >> > Hmmm. A Brust/Pratchett collaboration could be extremely entertaining... > Eww!! From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Sat Aug 24 02:45:25 2002 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 02:45:25 -0700 Subject: Round or Flat Message-ID: <200208240245.AA225313406@amish2000.com> >> is Dragaera a flat world or a round one...? >> >> Ha. Now i'm trying to imagine Vlad as a member of Ankh- Morpork's >> Assassin Guild. > >Hmmm. A Brust/Pratchett collaboration could be extremely entertaining... Oh, man, now I'm trying to envision the faculty of UU trying to make sense of the Orb, Sethra Lavode, and/or Morganti weapons. Those would be some DEAD fat wizards before very long, methinks. ~ MJ ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ ~ A Pirate Looks At Twenty ~ http://erythros.livejournal.com/ ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ ________________________________________________________________ Get your own evilemail.com address at http://www.evilemail.com From mam at theworld.com Sat Aug 24 06:35:44 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 09:35:44 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 23 Aug 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: #I'm not surprised they might be findable. I wonder, though, if any #properties of neural networks *guarantee* that they're findable? At #one level we understand neural networks very well (after all most of #them are software simulations, quite deterministic), but at other #levels I don't think we understand them *at all*. And let's not forget that despite their name, the software constructs that their creators optimistically named "neural nets" probably have very little in common with wetware. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Sat Aug 24 06:41:19 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 09:41:19 -0400 Subject: Round or Flat In-Reply-To: <000701c24b1f$90ea0380$f4892942@SUNNY1> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Aug 2002, Sunny Han wrote: #is Dragaera a flat world or a round one...? Especially ever since we had that bit where Vlad is talking to the recording machine -- if not before -- I've assumed that Dragaera is a planet. -- Mark M. From spiderman92 at attbi.com Sat Aug 24 07:30:06 2002 From: spiderman92 at attbi.com (Sunny Han) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 09:30:06 -0500 Subject: MN vanity plate DEVERA? References: <1030162596.12331.TMDA@dd-b.net> Message-ID: <000701c24b7a$be2d2c40$f4892942@SUNNY1> > Got this from a friend this evening: > > On my way in to work today, I briefly followed a nice shiny red pickup > with interesting Minnesota vanity plates: "DEVERA" > > Anybody you know? > > And I don't. Anybody else happen to know? *chuckles* I'll keep an eye out for it here in the land of 10 million lakes. If I see it, I'll flag them down and ask them... Sunny From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Aug 24 10:11:47 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 24 Aug 2002 12:11:47 -0500 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mark A Mandel writes: > On 23 Aug 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > #I'm not surprised they might be findable. I wonder, though, if any > #properties of neural networks *guarantee* that they're findable? At > #one level we understand neural networks very well (after all most of > #them are software simulations, quite deterministic), but at other > #levels I don't think we understand them *at all*. > > And let's not forget that despite their name, the software constructs > that their creators optimistically named "neural nets" probably have > very little in common with wetware. I'm not so sure. They certainly exhibit startlingly wetware-like properties. I'm thinking especially of some of the artificial insects that have been built. And after all, we *do* understand the neuronal biochemistry pretty decently. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From scs at di.org Sat Aug 24 09:58:35 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 12:58:35 -0400 Subject: The *real* thing? Message-ID: <20020824165835.GA27287@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> David Silberstein writes: > One of the things I'd like to see is the characters of the Khaavren > romances through any eyes that aren't Paarfi; how they talk and how > they act. . . . Well, we've seen Khaavren through Vlads eyes (in Phoenix, I think). If memory serves, the converstaion was considerably less florid than one would expect from the descriptions as given by Paarfi. -- "Deconstruction is [when] a work is interpreted as a statement about itself, using a literary version of the same cheap trick that Kurt Godel used to try to frighten mathematicians back in the thirties." -- Chip Morningstar in From zaphod at charter.net Sat Aug 24 11:32:11 2002 From: zaphod at charter.net (Greg Schwartz) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 14:32:11 -0400 Subject: The *real* thing? References: <20020824165835.GA27287@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <000701c24b9c$90031e20$6401a8c0@zaphod> > Well, we've seen Khaavren through Vlads eyes (in Phoenix, I think). If > memory serves, the converstaion was considerably less florid than one > would expect from the descriptions as given by Paarfi. I particularly like the bit where someone mentions the head of the Phoenix Guards had another spat with Zerika and resigned.. and someone says "Again?" Heh. I'm sure from Khaavren or Paarfi's perspective it's a bit more involved. =D -Greg Schwartz From mam at theworld.com Sat Aug 24 11:37:25 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 14:37:25 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 24 Aug 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: #Mark A Mandel writes: #> And let's not forget that despite their name, the software constructs #> that their creators optimistically named "neural nets" probably have #> very little in common with wetware. # #I'm not so sure. They certainly exhibit startlingly wetware-like #properties. I'm thinking especially of some of the artificial insects #that have been built. # #And after all, we *do* understand the neuronal biochemistry pretty #decently. That's simulation of behavior at an insect level. ELIZA can simulate conversation convincingly at a certain level, too. How similar (homeomorphic?) are the innards? How far does it scale toward human cognition? -- Mark A. Mandel From spiderman92 at attbi.com Sat Aug 24 11:46:12 2002 From: spiderman92 at attbi.com (Sunny Han) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 13:46:12 -0500 Subject: Witchcraft Message-ID: <002101c24b9e$8544a6a0$f4892942@SUNNY1> Are there such things as practicing witches? I've heard all of the arguments >from scientists about how it's physically impossibile to make things happen based strictly on desire. Are there any arguments fro it? I've read a book "A Plague of Sorcerers" by a Mrs. Zambreno, Mary Frances, and I think that defines my look on witchcraft... Sunny From rone at ennui.org Sat Aug 24 11:50:11 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 11:50:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Round or Flat In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020824185011.7676626E25@boredom.ennui.org> Mark A Mandel writes: On Fri, 23 Aug 2002, Sunny Han wrote: #is Dragaera a flat world or a round one...? Especially ever since we had that bit where Vlad is talking to the recording machine -- if not before -- I've assumed that Dragaera is a planet. Also the part in Phoenix where the Orca captain talks about sailing beyond the Maelstrom. It seems the population hasn't yet reached the Age of Exploration. rone -- {Reagan's} presidency always reminded me of a remark made by a woman to Heywood Broun following Secretariat's victory in the Triple Crown. After the trauma of Vietnam and Watergate, she said, Secretariat had "restored her faith in humanity." I like to think Reagan was the Secretariat of the eighties. - Garry Trudeau From spiderman92 at attbi.com Sat Aug 24 11:57:44 2002 From: spiderman92 at attbi.com (Sunny Han) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 13:57:44 -0500 Subject: Round or Flat References: <20020824185011.7676626E25@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <000a01c24ba0$21a9ec70$f4892942@SUNNY1> Also the part in Phoenix where the Orca captain talks about sailing > beyond the Maelstrom. It seems the population hasn't yet reached the > Age of Exploration. > I always had the funny impression that Dragaera was just another version of Earth as we know it, something else that might have happened in the deep past to create something else. Like, as it's called "Another Plane of Existance." Sunny From rone at ennui.org Sat Aug 24 12:00:56 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 12:00:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Round or Flat In-Reply-To: <000a01c24ba0$21a9ec70$f4892942@SUNNY1> Message-ID: <20020824190056.2163726E25@boredom.ennui.org> Sunny Han writes: > Also the part in Phoenix where the Orca captain talks about sailing > beyond the Maelstrom. It seems the population hasn't yet reached the > Age of Exploration. I always had the funny impression that Dragaera was just another version of Earth as we know it, something else that might have happened in the deep past to create something else. Like, as it's called "Another Plane of Existance." There are striking similarities. The Fenario map in BP somewhat resembles a map of Hungary. Greenaere and Elde Island seem to be conveniently located in a location not unlike Ireland and Great Britain with relation to Western Europe. Of course, i may simply be projecting. rone -- {Reagan's} presidency always reminded me of a remark made by a woman to Heywood Broun following Secretariat's victory in the Triple Crown. After the trauma of Vietnam and Watergate, she said, Secretariat had "restored her faith in humanity." I like to think Reagan was the Secretariat of the eighties. - Garry Trudeau From rone at ennui.org Sat Aug 24 12:02:19 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 12:02:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Round or Flat In-Reply-To: <20020824190056.2163726E25@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <20020824190219.5D81226E25@boredom.ennui.org> magical truthsaying bastard roney! writes: conveniently located in a location not unlike Ireland and Great ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I think i need more coffee. rone -- {Reagan's} presidency always reminded me of a remark made by a woman to Heywood Broun following Secretariat's victory in the Triple Crown. After the trauma of Vietnam and Watergate, she said, Secretariat had "restored her faith in humanity." I like to think Reagan was the Secretariat of the eighties. - Garry Trudeau From dar at horusinc.com Sat Aug 24 12:06:51 2002 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 14:06:51 -0500 Subject: Witchcraft In-Reply-To: <002101c24b9e$8544a6a0$f4892942@SUNNY1> Message-ID: > Are there such things as practicing witches? Sure, hit your local occult bookstore and you'll probably find a gazillion covens advertising... Or do a web search. > I've heard all of > the arguments > from scientists about how it's physically impossible to make > things happen > based strictly on desire. Ohhhh... You mean people who practice the art of causing reality to conform with one's will? Not a religious practice? Or semi-religious practice? Well... It all depends where you draw the line now doesn't it? At a very, very hard line, everybody who works with modern applied mathematics does since there are a whole host of inherent paradoxes to the way mathematics works on paper vs. how it works in reality... (e.g. various variants on Zeno's paradox) On a more fuzzy line? See above comment on occult bookstores. > Are there any arguments fro it? Try a web search, Or better yet, do you think that the majority of the population of the earth throughout recorded history has managed to be so completely wrong about so broad a topic? The argument that one can shoot lightning bolts from one's fingertips is certainly one that begs some verification... However the sticky question of hypnosis, NLP, other trance-phenomena, most branches of psychology and medicine, basically the whole of organized and much non-organized religion, and whatnot really makes such a question rather hard to answer without offending somebody. David From nytemuse at auros.org Sat Aug 24 12:25:19 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 12:25:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Witchcraft In-Reply-To: <002101c24b9e$8544a6a0$f4892942@SUNNY1> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Aug 2002, Sunny Han wrote: > Are there such things as practicing witches? I've heard all of the arguments > from scientists about how it's physically impossibile to make things happen > based strictly on desire. Are there any arguments fro it? I've read a book > "A Plague of Sorcerers" by a Mrs. Zambreno, Mary Frances, and I think that > defines my look on witchcraft... Yes, there is such a thing. I am one *g* And so's my primary, sort of. I'm Wiccan, he's not, but we both practice magic. Yeah, a lot of the things the media says witches do is BS and most likely can't happen, but there are some things that are true. I think the best explanation is how my primary goes into it. He doesn't believe in deities or external forces, except as vehicles to help one focus. He believes in magic as a force for internal change. Like when one does a spell to, say, get a job; he doesn't believe it causes anything to happen to the hiring manager, but it kind of instructs all parts of one's self to do the right things in obtaining a job. Or love spells. I even say the same about telepathy, etc. Telepathy and empathy are very much based on observational skills and data-extraction, for me. I've never gotten a clear message in my head from someone, but I have on occasion known what they were going to say, based on what I knew of them. And I've been able to intuit emotions that might have been hidden, based on body language and other things. I am, by no means, saying that there is nothing mystical or magickal out there, just that this is where my beliefs and practices stand now. I do agree that I have a hard time seeing people making things happen to outside forces by desire alone, but there are subtleties that haven't been really grasped yet, especially about how a slight modification to a person's behavior and/or attitude can cause another person's decision or what-have-you to change. But I do agree that we can't MAKE someone else do something we want, just like that, without doing something to ourselves. I have a rather large library of fairly good books on the subject, so if anyone wants recommendations, not a problem. ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From spenn at shaw.ca Sat Aug 24 12:25:06 2002 From: spenn at shaw.ca (Sean) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 12:25:06 -0700 Subject: Witchcraft References: Message-ID: <003801c24ba3$f3f30e20$883e5418@dontbenosy> The argument that one can shoot > lightning bolts from one's fingertips is certainly one that begs some > verification... But, but, you just roll that die 20 to hit and then shake up a handfull of six siders, don't you? From singram at videotron.ca Sat Aug 24 12:50:12 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 15:50:12 -0400 Subject: Witchcraft References: <003801c24ba3$f3f30e20$883e5418@dontbenosy> Message-ID: <001501c24ba7$76171100$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean" To: "Dragaera" Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 3:25 PM Subject: Re: Witchcraft > The argument that one can shoot > > lightning bolts from one's fingertips is certainly one that begs some > > verification... > > But, but, you just roll that die 20 to hit and then shake up a handfull of > six siders, don't you? > I usually just rub my feet on carpet on a dry winter's day... From frank at exit.com Sat Aug 24 12:59:04 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 12:59:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200208241959.g7OJx4vr058907@realtime.exit.com> > #Mark A Mandel writes: > #> And let's not forget that despite their name, the software constructs > #> that their creators optimistically named "neural nets" probably have > #> very little in common with wetware. This is not true. The reason they are called "neural networks" is that the are modelled after the biological structures for which they are named. In their implementation, of course, they are quite different, but in what they do and how they do it they are very similar. > On 24 Aug 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > #I'm not so sure. They certainly exhibit startlingly wetware-like > #properties. I'm thinking especially of some of the artificial insects > #that have been built. > # > #And after all, we *do* understand the neuronal biochemistry pretty > #decently. What we understand of it, we understand pretty well. There's still a lot of stuff (mostly relating to how the connections and feedback systems work) that we still don't understand. But our understanding is getting better all the time. Mark A Mandel wrote: > That's simulation of behavior at an insect level. ELIZA can simulate > conversation convincingly at a certain level, too. How similar > (homeomorphic?) are the innards? How far does it scale toward human > cognition? Considering that the most complex software neural network ever developed has at most the complexity of an insect, comparing it to the complexity underlying human cognition doesn't make much sense. On the other hand, though, I am becoming more and more convinced that the difference between the complexity of an insect and that of a human is a matter of amount, not kind. It's the same set of processes, with some modifications and much, much increased complexity. ELIZA was a keyword-based recogizer and can't be thought of in the same context as a neural network. For a brief description of artificial neural networks, I suggest http://www.emsl.pnl.gov:2080/proj/neuron/neural/what.html Particularly: "Artificial neural networks are collections of mathematical models that emulate some of the observed properties of biological nervous systems and draw on the analogies of adaptive biological learning." (Ibid) (I'm somewhat pleased at the vehemence of some of the reactions I've seen to this discussion. It can be difficult to consider that we are not what we think we are; the reactions suggest that some preconceptions may be being challenged.) -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From dar at horusinc.com Sat Aug 24 12:59:46 2002 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 14:59:46 -0500 Subject: Witchcraft In-Reply-To: <003801c24ba3$f3f30e20$883e5418@dontbenosy> Message-ID: > The argument that one can shoot > > lightning bolts from one's fingertips is certainly one that begs some > > verification... > > But, but, you just roll that die 20 to hit and then shake up a handfull of > six siders, don't you? Sorry... I'm old school- I just gather up 18+ d6 as an archmage and roll for effect. Mind you, I'll bounce the lightning bolt off the back wall so it hits you twice *You* roll the d20 to save for half-damage. Twice. Unless I throw a Wall of Force in front of you, and then cast the LB in front of it, thus making you save three times as it rebounds again off of it... Good Luck. ;-) David Started playing AD&D in 1979. From spenn at shaw.ca Sat Aug 24 13:05:49 2002 From: spenn at shaw.ca (Sean) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 13:05:49 -0700 Subject: Witchcraft References: Message-ID: <004601c24ba9$a4703b10$883e5418@dontbenosy> > > > > But, but, you just roll that die 20 to hit and then shake up a handfull of > > six siders, don't you? > > Sorry... > I'm old school- > I just gather up 18+ d6 as an archmage and roll for effect. > Mind you, I'll bounce the lightning bolt off the back wall so it hits you > twice > *You* roll the d20 to save for half-damage. > Twice. > Unless I throw a Wall of Force in front of you, and then cast the LB in > front of it, thus making you save three times as it rebounds again off of > it... > Good Luck. > David > Started playing AD&D in 1979. But first I gotta save vs rule-mongering, and failing that, we argue bitterly until the pizza comes. From mam at theworld.com Sat Aug 24 13:12:21 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 16:12:21 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <200208241959.g7OJx4vr058907@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Aug 2002, Frank Mayhar wrote: #> #Mark A Mandel writes: #> #> And let's not forget that despite their name, the software constructs #> #> that their creators optimistically named "neural nets" probably have #> #> very little in common with wetware. # #This is not true. The reason they are called "neural networks" is that #the are modelled after the biological structures for which they are named. #In their implementation, of course, they are quite different, but in what #they do and how they do it they are very similar. OK. I knew they were modelled after nerve complexes, but my point was that they were modelled after *what was known or believed about those structures at the time NNs were developed*. If subsequent research has supported the parallelism, good. Although ISTR reading that NNs have fairly small numbers of links, while human neurons have links to many thousands of other neurons-- or am I totally misremembering? #Mark A Mandel wrote: #> That's simulation of behavior at an insect level. ELIZA can simulate #> conversation convincingly at a certain level, too. How similar #> (homeomorphic?) are the innards? How far does it scale toward human #> cognition? # #Considering that the most complex software neural network ever developed has #at most the complexity of an insect, comparing it to the complexity underlying #human cognition doesn't make much sense. On the other hand, though, I am #becoming more and more convinced that the difference between the complexity #of an insect and that of a human is a matter of amount, not kind. It's the #same set of processes, with some modifications and much, much increased #complexity. Well, we'll just have to wait and see. #ELIZA was a keyword-based recogizer and can't be thought of in the same #context as a neural network. For a brief description of artificial #neural networks, I suggest # http://www.emsl.pnl.gov:2080/proj/neuron/neural/what.html Yes, I know the basics of how ELIZA works. I meant that criticism in concert with the limitations of our knowledge, per my first para above. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From spiderman92 at attbi.com Sat Aug 24 13:20:25 2002 From: spiderman92 at attbi.com (Sunny Han) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 15:20:25 -0500 Subject: Witchcraft References: Message-ID: <002301c24bab$ae4fc770$f4892942@SUNNY1> > David > Started playing AD&D in 1979. > I was *born* after you started to play... Anyway, D&D sucks if you don't have a good DM, and it takes too long. For a funny parody on D&D playing, check out Dr. Demento - Dungeons and Dragons Sunny From dar at horusinc.com Sat Aug 24 13:20:19 2002 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 15:20:19 -0500 Subject: Witchcraft In-Reply-To: <004601c24ba9$a4703b10$883e5418@dontbenosy> Message-ID: > > > But, but, you just roll that die 20 to hit and then shake up > > > a handfull of six siders, don't you? > > Sorry... > > I'm old school- > > I just gather up 18+ d6 as an archmage and roll for effect. > > Mind you, I'll bounce the lightning bolt off the back wall so > > it hits you twice > > *You* roll the d20 to save for half-damage. > > Twice. > > Unless I throw a Wall of Force in front of you, and then cast the LB in > > front of it, thus making you save three times as it rebounds > > again off of it... > > Good Luck. > But first I gotta save vs rule-mongering, and failing that, we argue > bitterly until the pizza comes. Bah! I was the DM! There was no rules-mongering! I watched a player to that in somebody else's game once, read, then re-read, then re-re-read the rules and decided that it *was* legal... It was hard to set up mind you, it generally had to be a stone wall of decent thickness, and the whole angle on incidence = the angle of refraction thing came into play... But when it succeeded.... SNAP! CRACKLE! POP! It's a bit of shock when you're not expecting it... ObD- I have seen it written that Dragerea had it's start in a RP campaign. Has St. Brust ever confirmed or denied this? Or spilled what system they used if the rumor be true? David On a trip down memory lane... From spenn at shaw.ca Sat Aug 24 13:27:29 2002 From: spenn at shaw.ca (Sean) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 13:27:29 -0700 Subject: Witchcraft References: Message-ID: <005601c24bac$ab55a4d0$883e5418@dontbenosy> > I have seen it written that Dragerea had it's start in a RP campaign. Has > St. Brust ever confirmed or denied this? Or spilled what system they used if > the rumor be true? That was one of the first things I thought when I read Jhereg - "this smacks of a long-running campaign." In the acknowledgments for "Jhereg" Steven writes: "And special thanks to Adrienne Thornley, who set up the canvas and lent me her brushes." I'm thinking this is either a reference to one of his teachers who inspired him in his youth, or a favoured GM = ) From dar at horusinc.com Sat Aug 24 13:26:25 2002 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 15:26:25 -0500 Subject: Witchcraft In-Reply-To: <002301c24bab$ae4fc770$f4892942@SUNNY1> Message-ID: > > David > > Started playing AD&D in 1979. > > > I was *born* after you started to play... Thanks... I feel old now. My wife is laughing at me. David From tsarren at alyra.org Sat Aug 24 13:49:35 2002 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Kat) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 15:49:35 -0500 Subject: Witchcraft In-Reply-To: <002101c24b9e$8544a6a0$f4892942@SUNNY1> References: <002101c24b9e$8544a6a0$f4892942@SUNNY1> Message-ID: <20020824204935.GJ31463@galadriel.alyra.org> On Sat, Aug 24, 2002 at 01:46:12PM -0500, Sunny Han wrote: > Are there such things as practicing witches? Yes. Wiccans would be a good example (though by the technical definitions I give below, they would be mages, not witches). It might be useful for me to pull out some information from an anthropology class... we have several terms we can use here. Religion, witchcraft, sorcery, and magic (or magick, however you want to spell it) come to mind. For most fantasy fans, the latter three are roughly equivalent; if we want to discuss this subject as it occurs in the real world, then as an option we can use the anthropological definitions of the terms. The are a convenient way of sorting belief systems, though they may not (and generally don't) accurately reflect the personal nomenclature of people who ascribe to such systems of thought (with the exception of religions). We have a spectrum of belief systems. At one end is the complete or near-complete lack of empirical evidence in the systems; at the other is a reliance on said evidence. So if you have a lack of empirical evidence, you have the presence of 'faith'; these systems are labled as religions. Move across a notch on the spectrum: here is placed sorcery, and it includes all sorts of supersticions and luck-based beliefs. The idea behind sorcery is that anyone can do it - anyone can carry a rabbit's foot, anyone can blow on the dice before casting them, anyone can knock on wood. Some belief systems in this category include the existence of spirit-beings to whom one can appeal, or whom one can placate. When the resulting outcomes are favorable, they provide something in the way of evidence. Another notch: witchcraft. In this category, the power to affect things comes from within a person, and a typical facet of these systems is that only certain people can do it. Makes for interesting ways of dealing with misfortune: person A and person B don't like each other. Something bad happens to B, and they accuse A of cursing them. A publicly apologizes, claiming they didn't know they were cursing B. Everyone is happy. It also makes for self-fulfilling prophecies: if someone believes they've been cursed, then the psychological stress starts to impact their mental and physical health; this can lead to death if it goes unchecked. Nice big chunk of evidence for everyone else in the community. Opposite end: magick. Practicioners make use of what they see as causal relationships between ritual and results. It's sort of based on the idea that your thoughts can exert influence; if you order your thoughts in a certain way or pattern them by means of a ritual, your chances of achieving a desired result go up. Some magickal systems involve tapping into external power sources (some of which are believed to be provided by deities; this would be a mixture of faith and magick). Some internal effects can be explained to the satisfaction of the scientific community, simply because they still don't understand just how much the mind can affect the body, nor the exact mechanisms behind it. Hypnosis could be considered an example of this - it involves the patterning of subconscious thought towards a desired result, such as pain reduction, stress management, healing, etc. A lot of the 'internal' magick is geared towards mental growth and enlightenment, Cabbalistic Pathwalking would be an example. In regards to flashy external effects - fireballs, levitation, and the like - I've yet to see *anyone*, online or rl, who claimed to be able to do these things (well, I met one guy who claimed to have witnessed a shapeshifting. Based on his description of the group ritual, I suspect it was a mass hallucination brought on by a trance state). Most mages are going for the smaller, subtler effects - an extra boost to one's garden, for example. Then there's all sorts of new-age stuff; people who can supposedly see auras, psychics, etc. None of it has been proved or disproved either (well, a lot of folk who have predicted wars and the end of the world and such have been proven wrong). Something to consider: If I had the power of precognition or knew a way of scientifically proving that I could astrally travel, I wouldn't exactly go blurting this out to the world (though some who claim the former have done so. They make strange websites and tend to gather followers). I'm not farmiliar enough with Eastern philosophies and religions to say where they might fit or not fit. Though as an intersting aside - about two months ago I watched my aikido instructor break a chopstick in half with a piece of paper held edge-on. The concept behind it is extending one's ki (energy) into the paper... if you want to look at it from a standpoint of Western science, this is a good example of someone patterening their thoughts to achieve a desirable and highly improbable result. Hope that helps. Kat > I've heard all of the arguments > from scientists about how it's physically impossibile to make things happen > based strictly on desire. Are there any arguments fro it? I've read a book > "A Plague of Sorcerers" by a Mrs. Zambreno, Mary Frances, and I think that > defines my look on witchcraft... > > > Sunny From sraun at fireopal.org Sat Aug 24 13:52:49 2002 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 15:52:49 -0500 Subject: Witchcraft In-Reply-To: <005601c24bac$ab55a4d0$883e5418@dontbenosy> References: <005601c24bac$ab55a4d0$883e5418@dontbenosy> Message-ID: <20020824205249.GA20167@fireopal.org> On Sat, Aug 24, 2002 at 01:27:29PM -0700, Sean wrote: > > I have seen it written that Dragerea had it's start in a RP campaign. Has > > St. Brust ever confirmed or denied this? Or spilled what system they used > > if the rumor be true? > > > That was one of the first things I thought when I read Jhereg - "this smacks > of a long-running campaign." It was. I have a copy of _Jhereg_ signed by Damar, Kragar, Morrolan, and Cawti. (There may be another signature in there, I'd have to go check.) > In the acknowledgments for "Jhereg" Steven writes: > > "And special thanks to Adrienne Thornley, who set up the canvas and lent me > her brushes." > > I'm thinking this is either a reference to one of his teachers who inspired > him in his youth, or a favoured GM = ) IIRC, Adrienne's Campaign set up Steven's. The system was home-brew. And from what I can tell, very ... fluid? It was one of those 'I can do this' type systems, where the ground rules were few and far between, and worked because the GM and players cooperated to tell the story. I should look at Amber Diceless sometime - it's the only published system I know of that might come close. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Sat Aug 24 13:55:42 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 13:55:42 -0700 Subject: Witchcraft In-Reply-To: <002101c24b9e$8544a6a0$f4892942@SUNNY1> References: <002101c24b9e$8544a6a0$f4892942@SUNNY1> Message-ID: <20020824205542.GA12858@ofb.net> On Sat, Aug 24, 2002 at 01:46:12PM -0500, Sunny Han wrote: > Are there such things as practicing witches? I've heard all of the arguments There are people who call themselves that, certainly. A fraction of them, size unknown to me, do seem to believe they can have real effects, beyond the self-control described by NyteMuse. On the Buffy list someone commented on how the magic in the show was the opposite of the real world, with easy transformation of humans into animals and hard protection spells. I suggested that in the real world, transformation and physical protection (against, say, a bullet) via spells were of equal difficulty, i.e. impossible. This did not go down well with the original poster, and a friend who's into Wicca for psychological and 'spiritual' reasons (to simplify, for fun) says he knows others in the physical change through magic crowd. James Randi has a million bucks for anyone who can prove anything paranormal... > from scientists about how it's physically impossibile to make things happen > based strictly on desire. Are there any arguments fro it? I've read a book There's the theoretical arguments, and there's also the lack of repeatable evidence. Strong evidence, say Talia Winters or Spock reading ten-digit numbers out of someone else's head, would trump theory. -xx- Damien X-) From Gaertk at aol.com Sat Aug 24 14:30:11 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 17:30:11 -0400 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?B?UmU6IE9UOiBib2lzICh3YXM6IFNldGhyYSBMYXZvZGUgdnMuIEVuY2hhbnRyZXNzIG9mIER6dXIgoCBNb3VudGFpbik=?= Message-ID: <6FD693C1.58462C4E.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Fri, 23 Aug 2002 8:07:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, Damien Sullivan writes: > On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 11:39:59AM -0500, Joshua Kronengold > wrote: > >> Actually, this is a pretty good example of why genralizing >> a language is bad -- by adding a "reply to: list" field, >> lists tend to blur the semantic distinction between "reply >> to the whole list" and "reply to just the person who sent >> this", thus making it harder, in general, to > > I think the solution is to get smarter mailers. ?I squawked > at first when I came on the list, but really it's no big > deal. ?For lists like this I can define the address for > mutt, and then use 'L' instead of 'r' to reply, so it'll > mail the list address, not the author. ?For the more common > IME lists, where Reply-To: is set, when I hit 'r' it asks > if I want to mail to the list; if I say no, it'll mail to > the author instead. ?'group-reply', where you reply to > everyone in the headers, is distinct from either of these. Unfortunately, some of us have email accounts that don't allow mail clients :( --KG From scs at di.org Sat Aug 24 14:19:00 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 17:19:00 -0400 Subject: Witchcraft Message-ID: <20020824211859.GA3059@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> David Rodemaker writes: > I have seen it written that Dragerea had it's start in a RP campaign. > Has St. Brust ever confirmed or denied this? St. Brust? St. Brust? When did he get Sainted? -- "Deconstruction is [when] a work is interpreted as a statement about itself, using a literary version of the same cheap trick that Kurt Godel used to try to frighten mathematicians back in the thirties." -- Chip Morningstar in From singram at videotron.ca Sat Aug 24 15:00:09 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 18:00:09 -0400 Subject: Witchcraft References: <005601c24bac$ab55a4d0$883e5418@dontbenosy> <20020824205249.GA20167@fireopal.org> Message-ID: <001701c24bb9$9d50daf0$17ecca18@ingram> > It was. > > I have a copy of _Jhereg_ signed by Damar, Kragar, Morrolan, and > Cawti. (There may be another signature in there, I'd have to go > check.) > Holy shit. That's all. -Scott From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sat Aug 24 15:00:15 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 15:00:15 -0700 Subject: Witchcraft In-Reply-To: <20020824205249.GA20167@fireopal.org> References: <005601c24bac$ab55a4d0$883e5418@dontbenosy> <005601c24bac$ab55a4d0$883e5418@dontbenosy> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020824145915.029cbb30@localhost> At 03:52 PM 8/24/2002 -0500, Scott Raun wrote: > >I have a copy of _Jhereg_ signed by Damar, Kragar, Morrolan, and >Cawti. (There may be another signature in there, I'd have to go >check.) Hmm. Aliera I'd believe. But I don't think you had one signed by Cawti. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sat Aug 24 15:03:38 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 15:03:38 -0700 Subject: Witchcraft In-Reply-To: <20020824211859.GA3059@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020824150208.029c37d0@localhost> At 05:19 PM 8/24/2002 -0400, Steve Simmons wrote: >David Rodemaker writes: > > > I have seen it written that Dragerea had it's start in a RP campaign. > > Has St. Brust ever confirmed or denied this? > >St. Brust? St. Brust? When did he get Sainted? Simple and understandable confusion. He heard of a plan, and just didn't understand the terminology. David: "Canonized" and "Shot with a cannon" don't mean the same thing. From mam at theworld.com Sat Aug 24 15:10:41 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 18:10:41 -0400 Subject: Witchcraft In-Reply-To: <002301c24bab$ae4fc770$f4892942@SUNNY1> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Aug 2002, Sunny Han wrote: #I was *born* after you started to play... Anyway, D&D sucks if you don't #have a good DM, True. # and it takes too long. O impatient youth! I raised my kids playing D&D. -- Mark M. From Starshadw at aol.com Sat Aug 24 15:54:39 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 18:54:39 EDT Subject: Witchcraft Message-ID: <9c.24f5fce8.2a9968af@aol.com> In a message dated 8/24/2002 2:16:41 PM Mountain Daylight Time, spiderman92 at attbi.com writes: > > > David > > Started playing AD&D in 1979. > > > I was *born* after you started to play... Anyway, D&D sucks if you don't > have a good DM, and it takes too long. > 1978 here. Yeesh, I AM old. Any RPG system has the potential for greatness or lousiness and it is impossible to place blame solely on the shoulders of the GM or the players. It's a two-way street. As for taking too long - that's the whole point. Who'd want to play an RPG that only lasted two hours and was over and done with? Stacy From zizban at adelphia.net Sat Aug 24 16:17:00 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 19:17:00 -0400 Subject: Witchcraft In-Reply-To: <9c.24f5fce8.2a9968af@aol.com> Message-ID: <979CD8FC-B7B7-11D6-9D5B-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 06:54 PM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/24/2002 2:16:41 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > spiderman92 at attbi.com writes: > > >> >>> David >>> Started playing AD&D in 1979. >>> >> I was *born* after you started to play... Anyway, D&D sucks if you >> don't >> have a good DM, and it takes too long. >> > > 1978 here. Yeesh, I AM old. Any RPG system has the potential for > greatness > or lousiness and it is impossible to place blame solely on the > shoulders of > the GM or the players. It's a two-way street. As for taking too long > - > that's the whole point. Who'd want to play an RPG that only lasted > two hours > and was over and done with? > > Stacy 1982 here. The DM makes all the difference. I've played very good games and very bad ones. From davids at kithrup.com Sat Aug 24 16:47:40 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 16:47:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Witchcraft In-Reply-To: <20020824205249.GA20167@fireopal.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Aug 2002, Scott Raun wrote: >On Sat, Aug 24, 2002 at 01:27:29PM -0700, Sean wrote: >>> I have seen it written that Dragerea had it's start in a RP >>>campaign. Has St. Brust ever confirmed or denied this? Or >>>spilled what system they used if the rumor be true? [snip] >> In the acknowledgments for "Jhereg" Steven writes: >> "And special thanks to Adrienne Thornley, who set up the canvas and >> lent me her brushes." Interestingly enough, in a later edition of "Jhereg" (I think it is the 16th printing, or at least the numbers on the copyright page go "20 19 18 17 16"), it says "Adrian Morgan". But SKZB confirmed that Adrienne changed her name to Adrian Morgan, so that explains that. Adrienne's original campaign was called "Piara" (or "Piarra" - he couldn't quite remember the spelling at the time), and Dragaera was a spinoff campaign. Or something like that. > >IIRC, Adrienne's Campaign set up Steven's. > >The system was home-brew. And from what I can tell, very ... fluid? >It was one of those 'I can do this' type systems, where the ground >rules were few and far between, and worked because the GM and players >cooperated to tell the story. > Yeah, that's about what Steve said when I asked him if there were any campaign materials buried in boxes that could be scanned in for historical interest. Oh well. From dar at horusinc.com Sat Aug 24 17:03:19 2002 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 19:03:19 -0500 Subject: Topics? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Has anyone else read _The Club Dumas_ (let's forget the movie > please) and/or > > _The Fencing Master_ by Arturo Perez-Reverte? > I don't know about them, but they sound interesting. Modern > historical fiction, or actual period fiction? Currently in print? > Hmmm, yes, I see, currently in print, and a number of other titles > too. But it only gives edition dates, not copyright, so I'm not so > clear on the first question still. Contemporary writing but _The Fending Master_ is set in the mid-19th century in Madrid. -The Club Dumas_ is the novel that the movie 'The Ninth Gate' is based on. Prior comments are correct, there is a huge plot thread that is ommited from the movie (like the concept that gives the book it's name) but the flavor remains the same. The book is still better mind you. _The Seville Communion_ also has a modern setting, and is well written. All three are short easy reads, being 250 pages or so. My prior comment to being 'Brustian' is that all are rather fast-paced, and have a sense of 'depth of undercurrent' that I enjoy in his works. David From dar at horusinc.com Sat Aug 24 17:03:21 2002 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 19:03:21 -0500 Subject: Witchcraft In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020824150208.029c37d0@localhost> Message-ID: > >St. Brust? St. Brust? When did he get Sainted? If you have to ask, it was when he made that comment about cute Asian girls and bondage. My wife almost spit her coffee up when I told her. > Simple and understandable confusion. He heard of a plan, and just didn't > understand the terminology. > > David: "Canonized" and "Shot with a cannon" don't mean the same thing. Here in Illinois, that comment will get you both. ;-) David From randi128 at aol.com Sat Aug 24 17:22:43 2002 From: randi128 at aol.com (randi128 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 20:22:43 -0400 Subject: Topics? Message-ID: <35A97F99.4E18A746.00A5729D@aol.com> Ah, come now. Don't be shy. Speak up and let yourself be heard. If no one wants to discuss it we'll let you know. You had to have seen the - I'll not go there- responses. John Barbato From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Aug 24 17:44:53 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 19:44:53 -0500 (CDT) Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: Mark A Mandel's message of 24 August 2002 References: Message-ID: <15720.10373.170067.976023@gw.dd-b.net> Mark A Mandel writes on 24 August 2002 at 14:37:25 -0400 > On 24 Aug 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > #Mark A Mandel writes: > #> And let's not forget that despite their name, the software constructs > #> that their creators optimistically named "neural nets" probably have > #> very little in common with wetware. > # > #I'm not so sure. They certainly exhibit startlingly wetware-like > #properties. I'm thinking especially of some of the artificial insects > #that have been built. > # > #And after all, we *do* understand the neuronal biochemistry pretty > #decently. > > That's simulation of behavior at an insect level. ELIZA can simulate > conversation convincingly at a certain level, too. How similar > (homeomorphic?) are the innards? How far does it scale toward human > cognition? The two are pretty completely unrelated. The inset behavior ones demonstrate the behavioral complexity possible from a simple net; ELIZA by contrast is specifically programmed in straight-forward procedural terms. Neither one has much to do with human cognition that I can see, but the inset behavior one is starting to explore the behavior and capabilities of stuff related to the hardware that human cognition runs on. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Aug 24 18:26:16 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 24 Aug 2002 20:26:16 -0500 Subject: Witchcraft In-Reply-To: <002101c24b9e$8544a6a0$f4892942@SUNNY1> References: <002101c24b9e$8544a6a0$f4892942@SUNNY1> Message-ID: "Sunny Han" writes: > Are there such things as practicing witches? I've heard all of the arguments > from scientists about how it's physically impossibile to make things happen > based strictly on desire. Are there any arguments fro it? I've read a book > "A Plague of Sorcerers" by a Mrs. Zambreno, Mary Frances, and I think that > defines my look on witchcraft... You mean, like, in the real world? Certainly; I know many. The question of whether they actually get results not explainable scientifically is more controversial. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Aug 24 18:31:04 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 24 Aug 2002 20:31:04 -0500 Subject: Witchcraft In-Reply-To: <002301c24bab$ae4fc770$f4892942@SUNNY1> References: <002301c24bab$ae4fc770$f4892942@SUNNY1> Message-ID: "Sunny Han" writes: > > David > > Started playing AD&D in 1979. > I was *born* after you started to play... Anyway, D&D sucks if you don't > have a good DM, and it takes too long. And this differs from other role-playing games exactly how? :-) I've never played D&D; in fact the only published role-playing system I've ever worked in was GURPS-based (John M. Ford ran a magical 17th century campaign that eventually morphed into a space pirates type thing). And even he tried to avoid the mechanics intruding deeply. I like figuring out what one should try, and having the DM do the odds, without my having to worry about it. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From mam at theworld.com Sat Aug 24 18:34:15 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 21:34:15 -0400 Subject: Witchcraft In-Reply-To: <20020824211859.GA3059@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Aug 2002, Steve Simmons wrote: #David Rodemaker writes: # #> I have seen it written that Dragerea had it's start in a RP campaign. #> Has St. Brust ever confirmed or denied this? # #St. Brust? St. Brust? When did he get Sainted? Oh, don't you know St.? He's in the same group as Wm., Jas., and Jno. (That's William, James, and Jonathan; yes, Jonathan.) -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Sat Aug 24 18:47:24 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 21:47:24 -0400 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <15720.10373.170067.976023@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Aug 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: #The two are pretty completely unrelated. The inset behavior ones #demonstrate the behavioral complexity possible from a simple net; #ELIZA by contrast is specifically programmed in straight-forward #procedural terms. Neither one has much to do with human cognition #that I can see, but the inset behavior one is starting to explore the #behavior and capabilities of stuff related to the hardware that human #cognition runs on. (Read "insect" for "inset"; ddb's fingers are betraying him.) I agree, their internals are quite different and ELIZA's don't generalize. I was reacting only to what I understood to be a statement about the *behavior* of the NN "insects": making a black box to black box comparison. -- Mark M. From ajmcguigan at yahoo.com Sat Aug 24 19:49:43 2002 From: ajmcguigan at yahoo.com (Andrew McGuigan) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 19:49:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Cycle Message-ID: <20020825024943.59074.qmail@web12706.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, my name is Andrew, I'm a long time listener/first time caller. :) I have a question about the Cycle, in 500 Years, we have this: "You," said Tazendra, startled "are now the very Emperor that your spell is attempting to win control away from in order to give it to you." and "I believe" said Andron, attempting to laugh "that I shall be remembered as having the shortest reign of any Emperor in History" However, in Taltos, Aliera says "It is the reign of a re-born Phoenix, isn't it?" and "A Great Cycle -seventeen cycles; it had to be a reborn Phoenix" So if the cycle didn't turn to Dragon, but to a reborn Phoenix, why did the Andron become the Emperor? My own thought is that he didn't, and that the spell went wrong because there was no Emperor for the spell to work against, the connection being already severed between the Orb and Tortaalik. I'd be interested in other's thoughts on this. From zaphod at charter.net Sat Aug 24 20:21:07 2002 From: zaphod at charter.net (Greg Schwartz) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:21:07 -0400 Subject: The Cycle References: <20020825024943.59074.qmail@web12706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002701c24be6$73b072a0$6401a8c0@zaphod> > I'd be interested in other's thoughts on this. It seems to me that the answer lies within the phrase "The cycle was broken". Not merely interrupted, but damaged. If Adron did not unleash the forces of elder sorcery against the orb itself, events would have lead to a Dragon reign. As it was, Zerika had to go get the orb from the paths of the dead, and once returned, the cycle began anew with the Phoenix reborn. Whether the mystical wheel within the paths of the dead was forceably pushed backwards a bit, or spun far forwards only the gods in the Halls of Judgment are likely to know... and maybe Sethra. -Greg Schwartz From zizban at adelphia.net Sat Aug 24 20:20:18 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:20:18 -0400 Subject: The Cycle In-Reply-To: <002701c24be6$73b072a0$6401a8c0@zaphod> Message-ID: <94B98C8E-B7D9-11D6-A33B-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 11:21 PM, Greg Schwartz wrote: > >> I'd be interested in other's thoughts on this. > > It seems to me that the answer lies within the phrase "The cycle was > broken". Not merely interrupted, but damaged. > > If Adron did not unleash the forces of elder sorcery against the orb > itself, > events would have lead to a Dragon reign. As it was, Zerika had to go > get > the orb from the paths of the dead, and once returned, the cycle began > anew > with the Phoenix reborn. Whether the mystical wheel within the paths > of the > dead was forceably pushed backwards a bit, or spun far forwards only > the > gods in the Halls of Judgment are likely to know... and maybe Sethra. > > -Greg Schwartz > Remember, it was an Interregnum, that is the Empire "ended" so when Zerika got the Orb the Cycle started anew. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sat Aug 24 20:46:43 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 20:46:43 -0700 Subject: Witchcraft In-Reply-To: References: <20020824211859.GA3059@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020824204602.029deec0@localhost> At 09:34 PM 8/24/2002 -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote: > >Oh, don't you know St.? He's in the same group as Wm., Jas., and Jno. >(That's William, James, and Jonathan; yes, Jonathan.) Everyone on this list ought to know that Jno. is Johnathan. That is, I *hope* everyone here reads Patrick O'Brian. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Sat Aug 24 20:48:10 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:48:10 -0400 Subject: Witchcraft References: <979CD8FC-B7B7-11D6-9D5B-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <3D68537A.723C99@earthlink.net> Chris Turkel wrote: > > On Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 06:54 PM, Starshadw at aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 8/24/2002 2:16:41 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > > spiderman92 at attbi.com writes: > > > > > >> > >>> David > >>> Started playing AD&D in 1979. > >>> > >> I was *born* after you started to play... Anyway, D&D sucks if you > >> don't > >> have a good DM, and it takes too long. > >> > > > > 1978 here. Yeesh, I AM old. Any RPG system has the potential for > > greatness > > or lousiness and it is impossible to place blame solely on the > > shoulders of > > the GM or the players. It's a two-way street. As for taking too long > > - > > that's the whole point. Who'd want to play an RPG that only lasted > > two hours > > and was over and done with? > > > > Stacy > > 1982 here. The DM makes all the difference. I've played very good games > and very bad ones. So when you guys say 1978 and 1982, I'm assuming you mean those as the years you began roleplaying. I first started in 1998, in a AD&D Darksun set campaign that didn't last very long. I tend to prefer other systems to D&D in terms of the mechanics, but I'll always remember Athas fondly. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From zaphod at charter.net Sat Aug 24 21:13:54 2002 From: zaphod at charter.net (Greg Schwartz) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 00:13:54 -0400 Subject: Witchcraft References: <20020824211859.GA3059@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <5.1.0.14.0.20020824204602.029deec0@localhost> Message-ID: <000e01c24bed$d3cc2920$6401a8c0@zaphod> > >Oh, don't you know St.? He's in the same group as Wm., Jas., and Jno. > >(That's William, James, and Jonathan; yes, Jonathan.) > > Everyone on this list ought to know that Jno. is Johnathan. That is, I > *hope* everyone here reads Patrick O'Brian. I'm amused that this also links nicely with *cannon*ization. -Greg Schwartz From spiderman92 at attbi.com Sat Aug 24 21:43:32 2002 From: spiderman92 at attbi.com (Sunny Han) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:43:32 -0500 Subject: Witchcraft References: <20020824211859.GA3059@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <5.1.0.14.0.20020824204602.029deec0@localhost> Message-ID: <002501c24bf1$f7b37510$f4892942@SUNNY1> > Everyone on this list ought to know that Jno. is Johnathan. That is, I > *hope* everyone here reads Patrick O'Brian. > Wow, I have to start reading more, and a wider variety of, literature *grumble.* Any suggestions? From mtiller at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 25 04:32:39 2002 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 12:32:39 +0100 Subject: Witchcraft In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020824204602.029deec0@localhost> Message-ID: <000001c24c2b$1ea24190$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> Okay, so who's Patrick O'Brian (says he preparing to be flamed) -----Original Message----- From: Steven Brust [mailto:skzb at dreamcafe.com] Sent: 25 August 2002 04:47 Everyone on this list ought to know that Jno. is Johnathan. That is, I *hope* everyone here reads Patrick O'Brian. From dar at horusinc.com Sun Aug 25 06:34:39 2002 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 08:34:39 -0500 Subject: Witchcraft In-Reply-To: <3D68537A.723C99@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > So when you guys say 1978 and 1982, I'm assuming you mean those as the > years you began roleplaying. I first started in 1998, in a AD&D Darksun > set campaign that didn't last very long. I tend to prefer other systems > to D&D in terms of the mechanics, but I'll always remember Athas fondly. With dice and paper and character classes and everything? Yes. But I was a creative little git before that also. 1978 was AD&D, 1979 was Traveller, and the whole slew of 'Golden Age' RPG's followed. But there are few games that I still play and have campaigns that I dust off every six months or so. (Until my burn-out at least, I've been taking a break while my wife runs a Mage campaign which I and the whole group have loved) I dropped AD&D about 1995ish, and began running my own home-brew rules system. Which I called btw, 'SMS' for 'The Sun, Moon, and Stars';-) Using my old AD&D campaign world and 'fixing' the problems of AD&D, it made that game-world much more consistant and fun to run. I'm running a small PBEM in that setting right now, and will get back to to table-top GMing when my wife grows tired of GMing herself... I still run (when running games) a Traveller campaign, which I run using the Cyberpunk rules system. Lot's of fun, and certainly not a canon Traveller campaign but the players haven't seemed to have any complaints. Call of Cthulhu/Delta Green is one of the few games that remains on my shelf, but I haven't played or run it in years. I also have Pendragon, which I have never actually run or played at all, but which makes a great resource for my SMS game. And I play in (besides the Mage game), of all things, a PBEM Morrow Project game run by by a Canadian! ObD- I am amazed by how much the Dragerea 'mythos' has permeated campaigns by the people I know. Morganti Weapons, Great Weapons, The Great Orb, etc. Is it because they are evocative? Or because gamers are inherently 'idea-thieves' and steal something they recognize as a good one? Heck, I even had Verra as a diety in my world for a bit because she seemed to fit. David From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Sun Aug 25 08:13:02 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 11:13:02 -0400 Subject: Witchcraft References: Message-ID: <3D68F3FE.744E6EBB@earthlink.net> David Rodemaker wrote: > > > So when you guys say 1978 and 1982, I'm assuming you mean those as the > > years you began roleplaying. I first started in 1998, in a AD&D Darksun > > set campaign that didn't last very long. I tend to prefer other systems > > to D&D in terms of the mechanics, but I'll always remember Athas fondly. > > With dice and paper and character classes and everything? Yup. I played a halfling Psionicist/Thief, before anyone ever told me how much the psionicist class is hated. For Darksun races and/or classes used, well, we had a Mul warrior PC and a Thri-kreen NPC. Nowadays, my preferred system is 7th Sea, both to play in and to GM in. I've only done campaigns in 7th Sea and 2nd & 3rd Edition D&D; I have done one-shots in Shadowrun, Werewolf, Cthulu (mostly LARPs, actually), and others. For some reason, I've never done Vampire. Dragaera frequently appears in my games: I've found myself bantering with other characters in a manner I can only describe as Brustian, and I frequently steal Paarfi's voice for certain courtier-types. I probably haven't copied the Dragaeran characters completely (at least, for originality's sake, I hope not), but the books have certainly influenced how I deal with a fantasy setting. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From mam at theworld.com Sun Aug 25 10:12:07 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 13:12:07 -0400 Subject: The Cycle In-Reply-To: <002701c24be6$73b072a0$6401a8c0@zaphod> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Aug 2002, Greg Schwartz wrote: #If Adron did not unleash the forces of elder sorcery against the orb itself, #events would have lead to a Dragon reign. But he *did* unleash them. -- Do you mean "if Adron the forces of elder sorcery against the orb itself, events would have led to a Dragon reign"? -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Sun Aug 25 10:14:09 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 13:14:09 -0400 Subject: Witchcraft In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020824204602.029deec0@localhost> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: #Everyone on this list ought to know that Jno. is Johnathan. That is, I #*hope* everyone here reads Patrick O'Brian. Jo<>nathan has no "h" after the "o". -- I don't. Should I? No, cancel that question, your reply is obvious; make it, Why should I? (Not a challenge, a real question.) Is he the author of the Aubrey/Maturin series? If so, what I lack is time. -- Mark A. Mandel From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Sun Aug 25 10:27:16 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 10:27:16 -0700 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20020825172716.GA30478@ofb.net> On Sat, Aug 24, 2002 at 09:35:44AM -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On 23 Aug 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > #I'm not surprised they might be findable. I wonder, though, if any > #properties of neural networks *guarantee* that they're findable? At [ they being logical rules ] After reading Wolfram, I have to admit perhaps not. You can execute simple rules in a large space and get behavior not derivable from the rules, except by seeing what they do. Of course, that's not peculiar to NNs. Whether a trained NN tends to be understandable or magic might depend on the training. (There was the genetic algorithm grown electronic circuit for adding or multiplying numbers which was smaller than usual, and had a portion not even conventionally connected to the rest of the circuit; turned out it was doing funky stuff with induction. Within a very narrow temperature range, though, not really robust.) > #one level we understand neural networks very well (after all most of > #them are software simulations, quite deterministic), but at other > #levels I don't think we understand them *at all*. Also depends on the NNs we're talking about. Simple feedforward ones have been likened to regression techniques in statistics. Cool implementation, but nothing all that special. Recurrent NNs have a lot more potential for being hard to predict and analyze (but again, the same is true of a randomly generated Turing machine, say. It's the halting problem generalized.) > And let's not forget that despite their name, the software constructs > that their creators optimistically named "neural nets" probably have > very little in common with wetware. To try to respond to subsequent discussion, again, yes and no. If our brains are doing information processing we should have to simulated only the firing patterns and neurotransmitter diffusion, and the latter shuold be imitatable by proper auxiliary wiring. Ignoring fine details of biology shouldn't matter. And obviously the basic idea of NNs is taken from ideas about brains. OTOH, Michael Dawson's _Understanding Cognitive Science_ said that NNs aren't always as biologically imitative as they could be. Threshold functions, for example, have been slowly getting more lifelike (improving the NN performance, too.) Recurrent NNs have often been avoided, because they're hard to write math equations about. And the learning mechanisms are often utterly unlifelike: this backpropagation or other teaching mechanism comes in from outside and messes with the weights. Yeah, right. But Dawson outlined a network which would be self-training. Of course, this about tripled the size of the network. The point is that NNs aren't just limited by current knowledge of biology; according to Dawson, they've also avoiding known and relevant details because they were too hard. Mark later brings up number of connections. NNs I've read abot often start life fully connected, at least from level to level, and I think Hopfield nets are totally connected. In brains the average number of synapses is 1000, vs. millions or billions or 100 billion neurons. OTOH, our NNs are often small, so "fully connected" isn't saying that much. -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Sun Aug 25 10:35:40 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 10:35:40 -0700 Subject: OT: bois (was: Sethra Lavode vs. Enchantress of Dzur Mountain) In-Reply-To: <200208241959.g7OJx4vr058907@realtime.exit.com> References: <200208241959.g7OJx4vr058907@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <20020825173540.GB30478@ofb.net> On Sat, Aug 24, 2002 at 12:59:04PM -0700, Frank Mayhar wrote: > human cognition doesn't make much sense. On the other hand, though, I am > becoming more and more convinced that the difference between the complexity > of an insect and that of a human is a matter of amount, not kind. It's the > same set of processes, with some modifications and much, much increased > complexity. Sufficient quantity becomes quality. And humans have well integrated memory, strong timesense, and above all approximate Turing universality. Insects don't seem to have long-term memory, and no other lifeform is known to be able to be computationally universal. That's a big difference in kind of complexity. Or relatedly, we're programmable, as are other higher animals, not hard-wired. (We usually call this 'learning'.) -xx- Damien X-) From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sun Aug 25 10:46:12 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 10:46:12 -0700 Subject: Witchcraft In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020824204602.029deec0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020825104415.029d71e0@localhost> At 01:14 PM 8/25/2002 -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote: > Why should I? (Not a >challenge, a real question.) Is he the author of the Aubrey/Maturin >series? If so, what I lack is time. Yes, the Aubrey Maturin books. I hope you eventually find the time. I never guarantee that anyone will like any book; but with those, I can come pretty close. But, yes, you do need time; there are twenty of them, and they are *very* addictive. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sun Aug 25 10:47:30 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 10:47:30 -0700 Subject: Witchcraft In-Reply-To: <000001c24c2b$1ea24190$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020824204602.029deec0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020825104642.029e1190@localhost> At 12:32 PM 8/25/2002 +0100, Mark Tiller wrote: >Okay, so who's Patrick O'Brian (says he preparing to be flamed) No, no flame; just a strong recommendation. Napoleonic war navel adventure comedy of manners. The first one is _Master and Commander_. They are wonderful. From pendragon at vaxer.net Sun Aug 25 11:09:51 2002 From: pendragon at vaxer.net (A Knight in White Satin) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 14:09:51 -0400 Subject: Witchcraft In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020825104642.029e1190@localhost> References: <000001c24c2b$1ea24190$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> <5.1.0.14.0.20020824204602.029deec0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20020825140702.00b79708@maple.vaxer.net> At 01:47 PM 8/25/2002, St. Steven wrote: >At 12:32 PM 8/25/2002 +0100, Mark Tiller wrote: >>Okay, so who's Patrick O'Brian (says he preparing to be flamed) > >No, no flame; just a strong recommendation. Napoleonic war navel >adventure comedy of manners. The first one is _Master and >Commander_. They are wonderful. Given that you are one of the few authors that I will buy .anything. from, sight unseen, (Hmm...publish your shopping list, maybe call it _A Canticle for St. Brust_ ... whaddya mean it's already been done?) your recommendation carries a great deal of weight. Consider the first one purchased. Doug the Lurker -- First they came for the fourth amendment, and I didn't speak because I wasn't a drug dealer. Then they came for the fifth, and I didn't speak up because I was innocent. Then they came for the second, and I didn't speak up because I didn't own a gun. Then they came for the first, and I couldn't speak. From scs at di.org Sun Aug 25 11:01:44 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 14:01:44 -0400 Subject: Witchcraft Message-ID: <20020825180144.GA10690@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Mark Tiller asks: > Okay, so who's Patrick O'Brian (says he preparing to be flamed) Author of a series of naval adventures featuring british officer Jack Aubrey and his friend and companion, MD and naturalist Stephen Maturin. They're mostly set in the Napoleonic Era, and are both rollicking good adventure stories and and a wonderfully detailed and enjoyable way to learn about the naval life of the period. There are 20 or 21; I've just finished the last after saving it for a year or so. The books aren't without flaws; for one thing, there's no way they could have made all the voyages they did within the time frame they had. And if you read them too close together, they can get a bit repetitious. But the stories are good, the characters are excellent, the writing is clear and clean, and all in all it's huge fun. I've never seen any of them in standard paperback, you'll have to pop for trade paper or hardcover (or used, I suppose). You *will* want to read them in order, and they're all still in print. Also worth chasing down are several of the companion books. Mine are out on loan at the moment, so I can only describe them generally here. One is a set of maps detailing most of the first 16 books, the other is a dictionary and glossary of terms used in the books. Both were written by devoted fans of the series; my apologies for not being more precise. O'Brien also wrote 'Men-of-War: Life in Nelson's Navy'. It's rather short but well worth the price for the illustrations. Most of them are gorgeous paintings of various ships, encounters, etc, as painted by various folks of the era. It also contains one of the most *frustrating* bits of history I've ever read -- the story of two ships in a 24-hour engagement that included multiple ramming and (at one point) the two ships tied together with the few surviving crew firing point-blank broadsides into each other. O'Brien describes it all in a few paragraphs; I'd have loved to see him describe the whole thing in the same detail given to the engagements in Aubrey and Maturin. -- "The faster you go DEAF the more time you have to READ." edu-core heavy-metal band Bloodhag From rick at 404.978.org Sun Aug 25 11:23:37 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 14:23:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Steven's recommendations- Aubrey/Maturin In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20020825140702.00b79708@maple.vaxer.net> References: <000001c24c2b$1ea24190$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> <5.1.0.14.0.20020824204602.029deec0@localhost> <5.0.2.1.0.20020825140702.00b79708@maple.vaxer.net> Message-ID: <3666.192.168.1.1.1030299817.squirrel@404.978.org> A Knight in White Satin said: > At 01:47 PM 8/25/2002, St. Steven wrote: >>At 12:32 PM 8/25/2002 +0100, Mark Tiller wrote: >>>Okay, so who's Patrick O'Brian (says he preparing to be flamed) >> >>No, no flame; just a strong recommendation. Napoleonic war navel >> adventure comedy of manners. The first one is _Master and >>Commander_. They are wonderful. > > Given that you are one of the few authors that I will buy .anything. > from, sight > unseen, (Hmm...publish your shopping list, maybe call it _A Canticle for > St. Brust_ > ... whaddya mean it's already been done?) your recommendation carries a > great deal of weight. Consider the first one purchased. I did the same, on Steven's recommendation. My only regret is having only bought the first of the books! -Rick From Gaertk at aol.com Sun Aug 25 11:50:04 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 14:50:04 -0400 Subject: Witchcraft Message-ID: <329D4B44.270F8DDE.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Sun, 25 Aug 2002 12:46:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, Steven Brust writes: > At 01:14 PM 8/25/2002 -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote: >> Why should I? (Not a challenge, a real question.) Is he >> the author of the Aubrey/Maturin series? If so, what I >> lack is time. > > Yes, the Aubrey Maturin books. ?I hope you eventually find > the time. ?I never guarantee that anyone will like any > book; but with those, I can come pretty close. > > But, yes, you do need time; there are twenty of them, and > they are *very* addictive. Not to me for some reason. I got about 2/3 through Master and Commander and decided I didn't really care about these people or events. But then, I'm beginning to suspect I'm becoming a munchkin in my old age... --KG From spenn at shaw.ca Sun Aug 25 11:48:28 2002 From: spenn at shaw.ca (Sean) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 11:48:28 -0700 Subject: Witchcraft References: <3D68F3FE.744E6EBB@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001a01c24c68$00c9a540$883e5418@dontbenosy> > > > So when you guys say 1978 and 1982, I'm assuming you mean those as the > > > years you began roleplaying. I first started in 1998, in a AD&D Darksun > > > set campaign that didn't last very long. I tend to prefer other systems > > > to D&D in terms of the mechanics, but I'll always remember Athas fondly. I have > done one-shots in Shadowrun, Werewolf, Cthulu (mostly LARPs, actually), > and others. For some reason, I've never done Vampire. > > Dragaera frequently appears in my games: I've found myself bantering > with other characters in a manner I can only describe as Brustian, and I > frequently steal Paarfi's voice for certain courtier-types. Like many of you, I played for years. Brust made his way into one of my campaigns in the form of a place I called "the hole" and certain vocabulary - it was the perfect place to find "work" and join the "organisation". The whole acquiring and holding territory thing developed into many enjoyable sessions. I abandoned AD&D a long time ago and began experimenting with different systems, combining and home-brewing systems, which led me to the Champions system. It used to be divided up into Fantasy Hero, Champions(super-heroes) and a Sci-Fi version the name for which I cannot remember. They took it further and combined the three into one system, Champions. The system was excellent for several reasons, but the foremost one for me was that it was a generic system. You built your characters using points, and the GM would set limits based on the type of campaign (200pts for superheroes, 100 for Fantasy Hero, 50 for real-world stuff). But the best part were the special effects. Say you were in a superhero campaign. You wanted to be a human torch kinda hero. You could buy a power blast, flight and a force shield all with the special effect "fire", and any limitations and advantages that seemed logical to modify the cost. Another person might want an iceman. They could by the same powers, but with different special effects and limitations, and have a completely different character. The system is particularly strong for developing a wide variety of magic systems in a fantasy campaign. This allowed me to create lots of different types and styles of campaigns - superheroes, cyberpunk, cartoons, gangsters, fantasy meets sci-fi, etc etc. I don't game much anymore, but did set up a fantasy campaign last winter using Champions, with 4 people who had never used the system b4 and they fell right into it no problem. I highly recommend it. From Starshadw at aol.com Sun Aug 25 11:57:22 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 14:57:22 EDT Subject: Witchcraft Message-ID: <164.12d674f4.2a9a8292@aol.com> In a message dated 8/25/2002 12:51:52 PM Mountain Daylight Time, spenn at shaw.ca writes: > This allowed me to create lots of different types and styles of campaigns - > superheroes, cyberpunk, cartoons, gangsters, fantasy meets sci-fi, etc etc. > I don't game much anymore, but did set up a fantasy campaign last winter > using Champions, with 4 people who had never used the system b4 and they > fell right into it no problem. I highly recommend it. Champions is good, except it can be VERY number-crunching intensive. GURPS has the same kind of flexibility, and it's got a heck of a lot less number-crunching and calculating. I've played both systems and while I like Champions, I prefer GURPS simply because it's less complicated for new players to RPGs. Those who are more experienced with RPGs in general have less trouble adapting to Champions. From spenn at shaw.ca Sun Aug 25 13:22:29 2002 From: spenn at shaw.ca (Sean) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 13:22:29 -0700 Subject: Witchcraft References: <164.12d674f4.2a9a8292@aol.com> Message-ID: <001201c24c75$23085b30$883e5418@dontbenosy> > Champions is good, except it can be VERY number-crunching intensive. GURPS > has the same kind of flexibility, and it's got a heck of a lot less > number-crunching and calculating. I've played both systems and while I like > Champions, I prefer GURPS simply because it's less complicated for new > players to RPGs. Those who are more experienced with RPGs in general have > less trouble adapting to Champions. > All true, but I did all the crunching - the players just rolled dice. This works well with Champions - keeps the rule-mongering to a minimum. From dd-b at dd-b.net Sun Aug 25 14:00:13 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 25 Aug 2002 16:00:13 -0500 Subject: Witchcraft In-Reply-To: <000001c24c2b$1ea24190$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> References: <000001c24c2b$1ea24190$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> Message-ID: "Mark Tiller" writes: > Okay, so who's Patrick O'Brian (says he preparing to be flamed) Very excellent author, the best-known (and most numerous) of which are historical novels set in the Napoleonic-era British navy. A number of people have reported that the first book, _Master and Commander_, is a poor introduction to the series, but I found it sucked me right in. Of course I was already a fan of C.S. Forester's Horatio Hornblower, and had some exposure to other authors in that sub-field (Alexander Kent, among others). For whatever reason, I didn't get into Dudley Pope until rather later, and David Donachie is new since then. But anyway. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Sun Aug 25 14:01:28 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 25 Aug 2002 16:01:28 -0500 Subject: Witchcraft In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20020825140702.00b79708@maple.vaxer.net> References: <000001c24c2b$1ea24190$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> <5.1.0.14.0.20020824204602.029deec0@localhost> <5.0.2.1.0.20020825140702.00b79708@maple.vaxer.net> Message-ID: A Knight in White Satin writes: > At 01:47 PM 8/25/2002, St. Steven wrote: > >At 12:32 PM 8/25/2002 +0100, Mark Tiller wrote: > >>Okay, so who's Patrick O'Brian (says he preparing to be flamed) > > > > No, no flame; just a strong recommendation. Napoleonic war navel > > adventure comedy of manners. The first one is _Master and > > Commander_. They are wonderful. > > Given that you are one of the few authors that I will buy > .anything. from, sight > unseen, (Hmm...publish your shopping list, maybe call it _A Canticle > for St. Brust_ > ... whaddya mean it's already been done?) your recommendation carries a great > deal of weight. Consider the first one purchased. Nah, it was his *laundry* list. Well, okay, it was *Vlad's* laundry list. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From mtiller at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 25 15:31:06 2002 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 23:31:06 +0100 Subject: Witchcraft In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020825104642.029e1190@localhost> Message-ID: <000301c24c87$1a234450$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> Thanks to all for the info, I'll find them. Mark -----Original Message----- From: Steven Brust [mailto:skzb at dreamcafe.com] Sent: 25 August 2002 18:48 To: Mark Tiller; 'Dragaera Mailing List' Subject: RE: Witchcraft At 12:32 PM 8/25/2002 +0100, Mark Tiller wrote: >Okay, so who's Patrick O'Brian (says he preparing to be flamed) No, no flame; just a strong recommendation. Napoleonic war navel adventure comedy of manners. The first one is _Master and Commander_. They are wonderful. From rone at ennui.org Sun Aug 25 18:23:16 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 18:23:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Witchcraft In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020825104642.029e1190@localhost> Message-ID: <20020826012316.E5AF526E25@boredom.ennui.org> Steven Brust writes: [Aubrey Maturin books] Napoleonic war navel adventure comedy of manners. "Behold! The Great Sea of Belly Button Lint!" rone -- {Reagan's} presidency always reminded me of a remark made by a woman to Heywood Broun following Secretariat's victory in the Triple Crown. After the trauma of Vietnam and Watergate, she said, Secretariat had "restored her faith in humanity." I like to think Reagan was the Secretariat of the eighties. - Garry Trudeau From righel at msn.com Mon Aug 26 08:07:07 2002 From: righel at msn.com (Rosemary Ighel) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 10:07:07 -0500 Subject: Prospective stories Message-ID: SB Says: >navel adventure comedy of manners. Pretty sure that concept should be explored. R. From casey at trinityhartford.org Mon Aug 26 09:32:49 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 12:32:49 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David Dyer-Bennet responding to my question: > > What's the count on Shakespeare's vocabulary vs the average > > well educated speaker of American English? > > You're expecting our vocabulary to be as larger or larger, I presume? > Could be. No. Actually, I expected it to be quite a bit smaller despite the vast number of words introduced over the intervening four centuries. Perhaps "working vocabulary" would be a better measure, since I'm certain that I use many fewer words than I know. > Of course, it's not how big it is; it's what you *do* with it that > matters. Natch. From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Aug 26 10:32:16 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 26 Aug 2002 12:32:16 -0500 Subject: Prospective stories In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Rosemary Ighel" writes: > SB Says: > > >navel adventure comedy of manners. > > Pretty sure that concept should be explored. I dunno, navel gazing never seemed to me to lead to much of anything except a stiff neck. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Aug 26 11:30:55 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 11:30:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Prospective stories Message-ID: <200208261830.g7QIUbC00448@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > >navel adventure comedy of manners. > > Pretty sure that concept should be explored. Does that have something to do with the Office of Navel Contemplation? :) Chris From mam at theworld.com Mon Aug 26 11:38:41 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 14:38:41 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Aug 2002, Casey Rousseau wrote: #David Dyer-Bennet responding to my question: #> > What's the count on Shakespeare's vocabulary vs the average #> > well educated speaker of American English? #> #> You're expecting our vocabulary to be as larger or larger, I presume? #> Could be. # #No. Actually, I expected it to be quite a bit smaller despite the vast #number of words introduced over the intervening four centuries. Perhaps #"working vocabulary" would be a better measure, since I'm certain that I use #many fewer words than I know. AAMOF, although I don't remember it I have seen counts of Willy's vocab, and IIRC it's impressively large when compared to the average USAian's working vocabulary. Remember that: 1. Anyone's recognition vocab is much larger than their production vocab. 2. The words introduced in the past four centuries have mostly been highly technical words that most of us wouldn't even recognize, let alone use. Lessee... pharyngealization, cytochrome, intertextuality... well, maybe in THIS crowd, but not to the average English speaker. 3. The gain of everyday words has been at least partly balanced by the loss of everyday words, not least as we move from rural low-tech to city hi-tech life. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From RuhlenR at missouri.edu Mon Aug 26 11:52:51 2002 From: RuhlenR at missouri.edu (Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student)) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 13:52:51 -0500 Subject: The *real* thing? Message-ID: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E01245394@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> > -----Original Message----- > From: David Silberstein [mailto:davids at kithrup.com] > Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 9:33 PM > To: Dragaera Mailing List > Subject: The *real* thing? > Man, Paarfi is *ever* so much *long-winded*. It's fun if you > like that sort of thing, but I know of two people who liked > the story of TPG but hated the style... I personally like reading the Khaavren romances more frequently than Vlad (particularly the depressing stories...Teckla...) I took my copy of Phoenix Guards to my mom's house and she hated it. She said he was trying to sound like Dumas only Dumas did it a whole lot better. I think she sort of missed the point. Without telling her it was the same author, I then bought her Book of Jhereg for Christmas (even though it includes the depressing one). She liked it lots. And that's not her preferred genre. Go figure. Rachel From mam at theworld.com Mon Aug 26 11:40:13 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 14:40:13 -0400 Subject: Prospective stories In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 26 Aug 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: #I dunno, navel gazing never seemed to me to lead to much of anything #except a stiff neck. Oh, sure, if you're contemplating your own navel. That's no fun. With a friend, OTOH... Of course, gazing is just part of the game. -- Mark A. Mandel From casey at trinityhartford.org Mon Aug 26 12:24:25 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 15:24:25 -0400 Subject: The *real* thing? In-Reply-To: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E01245394@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: Rachel Louise Ruhlen wrote: > I personally like reading the Khaavren romances more frequently than > Vlad (particularly the depressing stories...Teckla...) I just re-read the first 4 Vlad novels last week. I remember being torn up over Vlad and Cawti when I read it for the first time. Now, in close succession and knowing a bit more of the 'lay of the land', I would argue that Teckla is _not_ depressing. It is an integral piece of Vlad's story that shows how he got to the point in his life where the events of Orca and Issola could happen. Casey From aheyman at rcn.com Mon Aug 26 12:43:01 2002 From: aheyman at rcn.com (Adam Heyman) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 15:43:01 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) References: Message-ID: <003b01c24d38$c9d6f390$6401a8c0@death> Mark A Mandel wrote: || 2. The words introduced in the past four centuries have mostly been || highly technical words that most of us wouldn't even recognize, let || alone use. Lessee... pharyngealization, cytochrome, || intertextuality... well, maybe in THIS crowd, but not to the average || English speaker. Not all technical words are "highly" technical. Car, plane, radio, radar, stereo, etc. are words that are not considered technical but have been added to common parlance in the last century due to certain technologies becoming common. I expect some of the computer jargon that professionals use will seep into everyday use (like 'logging on' has). Balanced against this addition must also be considered the words lost due to technology gains. The profession of cooper, for example, is not as important now as in Shakespeare's time and most people today would not even know what a cooper did. Wainwright is another example of the same. ______________ Adam Heyman aheyman at rcn.com 1000 Lexington St. #48 Waltham, MA 02452 781 642 6917 From mam at theworld.com Mon Aug 26 12:41:51 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 15:41:51 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <003b01c24d38$c9d6f390$6401a8c0@death> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Aug 2002, Adam Heyman wrote: #Mark A Mandel wrote: #|| 2. The words introduced in the past four centuries have mostly been #|| highly technical words that most of us wouldn't even recognize, let #|| alone use. Lessee... pharyngealization, cytochrome, #|| intertextuality... well, maybe in THIS crowd, but not to the average #|| English speaker. # #Not all technical words are "highly" technical. Car, plane, radio, #radar, stereo, etc. are words that are not considered technical but #have been added to common parlance in the last century due to #certain technologies becoming common. I completely agree. That's why I said "highly technical" #Balanced against this addition must also be considered the words lost #due to technology gains. The profession of cooper, for example, is not #as important now as in Shakespeare's time and most people today would not #even know what a cooper did. Wainwright is another example of the same. I think I hit this in, was it point three? -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From singram at videotron.ca Mon Aug 26 12:54:26 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 15:54:26 -0400 Subject: The *real* thing? References: Message-ID: <002101c24d3a$625f2640$17ecca18@ingram> > Rachel Louise Ruhlen wrote: > > I personally like reading the Khaavren romances more frequently than > > Vlad (particularly the depressing stories...Teckla...) > > I just re-read the first 4 Vlad novels last week. I remember being torn up > over Vlad and Cawti when I read it for the first time. Now, in close > succession and knowing a bit more of the 'lay of the land', I would argue > that Teckla is _not_ depressing. It is an integral piece of Vlad's story > that shows how he got to the point in his life where the events of Orca and > Issola could happen. Oh sure, in the context of the more recent books, it isn't that depressing, but to read Teckla by itself and be left dangling... Heh, actually I found it depressing AND I rubbed my hands with glee as Vlad 'gifted' her with authority over his Teckla area. Quite the conundrum for social activist Cawti. After all, she can't just ignore his 'gift' as another Jhereg would take over the area... so, she'd be stuck operating it... trying to be a 'politically correct' gangster, all the while knowing that if she didn't have brothels or gambling dens, all the Teckla whom she was trying to save from themselves, would just go elsewhere... Man, I really didn't like her by the end of the book. I can't wait to see how St. Brust portrays her now. -Scott From aheyman at rcn.com Mon Aug 26 13:02:55 2002 From: aheyman at rcn.com (Adam Heyman) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 16:02:55 -0400 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) References: Message-ID: <004c01c24d3b$914a4c90$6401a8c0@death> Mark A Mandel wrote: || On Mon, 26 Aug 2002, Adam Heyman wrote: || || #Mark A Mandel wrote: || 2. The words introduced in the past four centuries have mostly been || highly technical words that most of us wouldn't even recognize, ...... || #Not all technical words are "highly" technical. Car, plane, radio, || #radar, stereo, etc. are words that are not considered technical but || #have been added to common parlance in the last century due to || #certain technologies becoming common. || || I completely agree. That's why I said "highly technical" || You said the words introduced in the last 4 centuries have been **mostly highly technical words**. I was just pointing out that there are far more words that have been added that are not hightly technical, but may have been at one point. Science adds words to its lexicon constantly (after all if you discover something new, it needs a name), but the words that actually get added to most people's lexicons are not that technical. || #Balanced against this addition must also be considered the words || lost #due to technology gains. The profession of cooper, for || example, is not #as important now as in Shakespeare's time and most || people today would not #even know what a cooper did. Wainwright is || another example of the same. || || I think I hit this in, was it point three? || You did. Sorry. ______________ Adam Heyman aheyman at rcn.com 1000 Lexington St. #48 Waltham, MA 02452 781 642 6917 From davids at kithrup.com Mon Aug 26 13:38:48 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 13:38:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The *real* thing? In-Reply-To: <002101c24d3a$625f2640$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Aug 2002, Scott Ingram wrote: > >Heh, actually I found it depressing AND I rubbed my hands with glee >as Vlad 'gifted' her with authority over his Teckla area. Quite the >conundrum for social activist Cawti. After all, she can't just ignore >his 'gift' as another Jhereg would take over the area... so, she'd be >stuck operating it... trying to be a 'politically correct' gangster, >all the while knowing that if she didn't have brothels or gambling >dens, all the Teckla whom she was trying to save from themselves, >would just go elsewhere... > I can see her trying different schemes, such as kicking out all the pimps and collectivizing the brothels, plowing profits back into the area in the form of education and social services, turning the loan sharking into a more benevolent microloan system (although Vlad makes it sound like that's what it is anyway), and for the gambling... Hm. Well, for the relatively wealthy, or tourists (wealthy enough to travel, and only gambling part-time anyway) it's not such a big deal. For those who are so addicted that they impoverish themselves, perhaps she could set up system where those who bust out are steered to something that will refocus their efforts (for example, instead of loaning them more money to lose, let them work off their debt by volunteering in her social services collective). Can drug addiction or gambling addiction be cured sorcerously, I wonder? In other words, compromising enough to the point where she recognizes that the Jhereg make their money because they exploit the flaws in human nature, and while she can clean up the worst excesses, she has to take those flaws into account in her planning, or fail utterly. And at least from what we see in "Orca", she's not doing too badly. From bertowud at gator.net Mon Aug 26 13:44:41 2002 From: bertowud at gator.net (Robert Wood) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 16:44:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cawti In-Reply-To: References: <002101c24d3a$625f2640$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: <55913.209.208.44.34.1030394681.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> It would be really cool to read a Cawti novel dealing with how she handles Vlad's turf. It wouldn't even have to be one of the Vlad books. Anyone who marries Vlad has to be a dynamic character. From seanp at ea.com Mon Aug 26 14:07:29 2002 From: seanp at ea.com (Penney, Sean) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 14:07:29 -0700 Subject: Cawti Message-ID: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A7D@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Robert Wood said: >It would be really cool to read a Cawti novel dealing with how she handles >Vlad's turf. It wouldn't even have to be one of the Vlad books. Anyone >who marries Vlad has to be a dynamic character. It would also be interesting to see some of the events we are already familiar with through Cawti's eyes - such as her time as the Dagger of the Jhereg, leading up to meeting/killing Vlad and helping him nail the fellow who holed up in Morrolan's castle (can't remember the name), and then her time with Kelly and his band of social agitators, etc etc, touching base with Vlad while he is in the middle of the adventures we have already read - sort of like the Alexandrian Quartet - http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140153179/ref=ase_categoricalgeome/1 02-6863620-7076916 - which details the same story from 4 perspectives. From mr1 at rcosta.com Mon Aug 26 14:33:53 2002 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 17:33:53 -0400 Subject: The *real* thing? In-Reply-To: <002101c24d3a$625f2640$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: <3D6A6681.8067.1D3B3BC@localhost> On 26 Aug 2002 at 15:54, Scott Ingram wrote > > Man, I really didn't like her by the end of the book. I can't wait to > see how St. Brust portrays her now. > > -Scott > I wasn't pleased with her either by then. OK, the first time I read "Teckla" I was on the verge of loathing her - but I was in the midst of a crumbling "relationship" at the time, so I might have been a bit sensitive...I remember identifying strongly with Vlad, although not to the point of making bold self sacrificing gestures. M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From davids at kithrup.com Mon Aug 26 15:38:53 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 15:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cawti In-Reply-To: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A7D@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Aug 2002, Penney, Sean wrote: >Robert Wood said: >>It would be really cool to read a Cawti novel dealing with how she >>handles Vlad's turf. It wouldn't even have to be one of the Vlad >>books. Anyone who marries Vlad has to be a dynamic character. >It would also be interesting to see some of the events we are already >familiar with through Cawti's eyes I'd also like to see her early childhood - who trained her as a witch? What happened to her mom, Brigitta? How *did* an Easterner hook up with a Dragaeran - and a Dragon ex-heir-to-the-Empire, no less? I thought up some titles for a Cawti series, which I thought were apropos and/or amusing: > - such as her time as the Dagger of the Jhereg, "Sword & Dagger" (Subtitle: "How I met Norathar and began a beautiful friendship") >leading up to meeting/killing Vlad "The Taltos Contract" (Subtitle: "How I got my man") >and then her time with Kelly and his band of social agitators, etc "The People's Republic of South Adrilankha" (Subtitle: "How I learned to start worrying and hate the Mob") > touching base with Vlad while he is in the middle of the adventures >we have already read - But she doesn't, does she? >sort of like the Alexandrian Quartet - >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140153179 Note that you only need the URL up to the ASIN (which is the ISBN) in order to access the book. And this way, it doesn't wrap on 80-column screens. From scs at di.org Mon Aug 26 15:09:30 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 18:09:30 -0400 Subject: The *real* thing? Message-ID: <20020826220930.GA5443@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Casey Rousseau writes: > I just re-read the first 4 Vlad novels last week. I remember being torn > up over Vlad and Cawti when I read it for the first time. Now, in close > succession and knowing a bit more of the 'lay of the land', I would argue > that Teckla is _not_ depressing. It is an integral piece of Vlad's story > that shows how he got to the point in his life where the events of Orca > and Issola could happen. Naw, it's still depressing. Sigh. I suppose I shouldn't just let that sentence lie there. OK, in more detail: Certianly the occurances in Teckla are an incredibly important part of the lives of both Vlad and Cawti, and important to the Empire as a whole. But from our point of view (the reader) what we see is two people we know and like heading down a road that leads to inevitable tragedy for both. That's depressing, even if it is inevitible. Equally depressing is the fact that Cawti and group, while certianly on the moral high ground, are doomed to failure -- probably bloody failure. As Brust-speaking-through-Sethra says, this is basicly a `you can't get there from here' problem. You (Dragaeraian society) has to get somewhere else first, and that place is generations away. -- "The faster you go DEAF the more time you have to READ." edu-core heavy-metal band Bloodhag From scs at di.org Mon Aug 26 15:03:20 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 18:03:20 -0400 Subject: Cawti Message-ID: <20020826220320.GA5288@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> You know, that's a helluva idea. When the last time was you read a book about a single-mother, ex-assassin-turned-revolutionary socialist gangster friend of the Imperial Heir? Put that way it almost sounds silly, but (assuming there's a plot) it could be a helluva story. And Steve's done Vlad stories from various viewpoints, usually to good end. This would make another. Assuming Vlad's in it, of course. Hmm . . . (Steve is thinking out loud, or rather, typing as he thinks) . . . if by chance there's to be a reconciliation between Vlad and Cawti, I can't see the story working from Vlad's viewpoint. As Steve B has pointed out, Vlad is sometimes and idiot. Vlad doesn't understand Cawti's current viewpoint, and I doubt he'd understand what changed in him or her to cause a reconciliation. But from Cawti's point of view - yeah, there's a helluva character-oriented story there. Speaking of other characters viewpoints, we've had a Keira viewpoint story. I'd like to see a Morrolan viewpoint. Not to mention a Vlad Norathar's point of view, or Morrolans. On the other hand, a Sethra viewpoint story would probably have too damned many spoilers. :-) -- "The faster you go DEAF the more time you have to READ." edu-core heavy-metal band Bloodhag From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Aug 26 15:40:33 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 15:40:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The *real* thing? Message-ID: <200208262240.g7QMeEC27994@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> "Michele Riccio" wrote: > > Man, I really didn't like her by the end of the book. I can't wait to > > see how St. Brust portrays her now. > > > > -Scott > > > I wasn't pleased with her either by then. Am I the ONLY freak who didn't hate the poor woman during Teckla/Phoenix? I'll admit that I was very much saddened by the whole break-up, and it hit very close to home a couple years after I read it (when I had a major break-up of my own), and I'll even agree that there are some things I cannot agree with her on; but on the whole, she didn't do anything that I completely disagreed with. People change. If the relationship can't change with the people, it disolves. This is usualy sad, and Teckla was one of the hardest of the Vlad books for me to get through for this reason (I kept saying to myself "No!! He can't do that!! I thought this was fun-fantasy!?!?") However, I must commend St. Brust for putting into story the kind of relationship we don't often hear about. That is, the kind where love for the individual is not the issue, but that outside forces and a change in character bring about the distancing of two people who care very much about the other. All in all, masterfully done; even to the extent that some people dislike one or both of the characters for their realworld-like interactions. But it still makes me sad when I read it... Going off to be mopey in the corner, Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From nytemuse at auros.org Mon Aug 26 15:46:00 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 15:46:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The *real* thing? In-Reply-To: <200208262240.g7QMeEC27994@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Aug 2002, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > "Michele Riccio" wrote: > > > Man, I really didn't like her by the end of the book. I can't wait to > > > see how St. Brust portrays her now. > > I wasn't pleased with her either by then. > Am I the ONLY freak who didn't hate the poor > woman during Teckla/Phoenix? Nope, here's another freak. I could somewhat understand what happened, saddening as it was. ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Aug 26 15:51:32 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 26 Aug 2002 17:51:32 -0500 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: <003b01c24d38$c9d6f390$6401a8c0@death> References: <003b01c24d38$c9d6f390$6401a8c0@death> Message-ID: "Adam Heyman" writes: > Mark A Mandel wrote: > || 2. The words introduced in the past four centuries have mostly been > || highly technical words that most of us wouldn't even recognize, let > || alone use. Lessee... pharyngealization, cytochrome, > || intertextuality... well, maybe in THIS crowd, but not to the average > || English speaker. > > Not all technical words are "highly" technical. Car, plane, radio, > radar, stereo, etc. are words that are not considered technical but > have been added to common parlance in the last century due to > certain technologies becoming common. I expect some of the > computer jargon that professionals use will seep into > everyday use (like 'logging on' has). And, to pick an example at random, "cabriolet" is a technical term *now* but was an ordinary, common, term to people back a while, in the same way "car" is to us now. > Balanced against this addition must also be considered the words lost > due to technology gains. The profession of cooper, for example, is not > as important now as in Shakespeare's time and most people today would not > even know what a cooper did. Wainwright is another example of the same. True enough. Of course *I* know both of those off the top of my head without even thinking about them, and most of the people I hang around with do too. Which just goes to show that the range of human variation is *far wider* than most of us know about, because people sort themselves and society sorts people into relatively homogenous chunks. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From rone at ennui.org Mon Aug 26 15:54:33 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 15:54:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The *real* thing? In-Reply-To: <200208262240.g7QMeEC27994@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <20020826225433.6C72426E2A@boredom.ennui.org> Chris Olson - SunPS writes: Am I the ONLY freak who didn't hate the poor woman during Teckla/Phoenix? I couldn't (and can't) hate her. But i was certainly disappointed in her priorities, even though i can't particularly fault her for them. And let's just say that Vlad wasn't helping much, either... But both were true to themselves (perhaps a little too true at times). rone -- {Reagan's} presidency always reminded me of a remark made by a woman to Heywood Broun following Secretariat's victory in the Triple Crown. After the trauma of Vietnam and Watergate, she said, Secretariat had "restored her faith in humanity." I like to think Reagan was the Secretariat of the eighties. - Garry Trudeau From kknolte at ecity.net Mon Aug 26 17:51:13 2002 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 18:51:13 -0600 Subject: The *real* thing? References: <20020826220930.GA5443@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <3D6ACCFE.6592@ecity.net> Steve Simmons wrote: > > Equally depressing is the fact that Cawti and group, while certianly on > the moral high ground, are doomed to failure -- probably bloody failure. > As Brust-speaking-through-Sethra says, this is basicly a `you can't get > there from here' problem. You (Dragaeraian society) has to get somewhere > else first, and that place is generations away. Could you really get there even in several generations? Wasn't their a Vlad-type observation in one of the books where he talks about Aliera and Morrolan killing huge numbers of ordinary Easterners in a battle who didn't have a chance against them? Guess I'm wondering if you need a precondition where masses of ordinary Teckla who would have a chance against the noble Houses in a fight before the society could get to the place where Kelly et al have a chance, or if the existence of magic changes things too much. Shrug - maybe Cawti should be investing the proceeds of her territory in magic colleges for Teckla and Easterners? From zaphod at charter.net Mon Aug 26 16:57:30 2002 From: zaphod at charter.net (Greg Schwartz) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 19:57:30 -0400 Subject: The *real* thing? References: <20020826225433.6C72426E2A@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <003d01c24d5c$56b30ce0$6401a8c0@zaphod> > > I couldn't (and can't) hate her. But i was certainly disappointed in > her priorities, even though i can't particularly fault her for them. > And let's just say that Vlad wasn't helping much, either... But both > were true to themselves (perhaps a little too true at times). I was actually mostly dissapointed in Vlad in that story. Cawti had undergone a pretty radical change, but seemed to have a clear understanding of who she was, and what she was doing with her life. Vlad was still Vlad.. reacting, surviving, but not really *contributing*. Granted the changes taking place in Vlad's life were painful, and he dealt with them the only way he understood how. I care enough about the characters to want them to rebuild a loving relationship, but I simply can't see how that would happen after some of the revelations in Issola. How would the new Cawti react to the idea of the whole world being controlled by the gods? How would she feel about the harvesting of souls that are useful for the gods purposes? What have the gods done to manipulate her husband through his life/lives? That mess is not going to help them reconcile. -Greg Schwartz From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Aug 26 16:58:54 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 16:58:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The *real* thing? Message-ID: <200208262358.g7QNwZC09839@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> K Kuhn wrote: > Shrug - maybe Cawti should be investing the > proceeds of her territory in magic colleges for Teckla and Easterners? With her background, why bother? Easier to teach them a trade: "No matter how subtle the wizard..." Can't you just see a few thousand Teckla assassins running around like rabid...uh...Teckla? Chris "He is a lover of his country who rebukes and does not excuse its sins." - Frederick Douglass From scs at di.org Tue Aug 27 00:02:09 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 03:02:09 -0400 Subject: The *real* thing? Message-ID: <20020827070208.GA13689@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> K Kuhn writes in response to me: > > . . . [Dragaeraian society] has to get somewhere > > else first, and that place is generations away. > Could you really get there even in several generations? Several? No, probably not even several Dragaerean generations. But I used the word metaphoricly, not literally. -- "The faster you go DEAF the more time you have to READ." edu-core heavy-metal band Bloodhag From Randi128 at aol.com Tue Aug 27 07:03:39 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:03:39 EDT Subject: The *real* thing? Message-ID: <137.135be5fb.2a9ce0bb@aol.com> On 8-26-02 Chris Olson wrote: Am I the only Freak who didn't hate the poor woman during Teckla/Phoenix. Refering, of course, to Cawti. No, I have to say that I didn't hate the woman either. I thought that she was misguided, but I harbored no ill will against her. Reletionships do not always work out and I liked the way that Vlad was able to find love with another Jhereg, assassin, easterner, only to lose it when she decided she didn't want to be any of those things anymore. I think she's being a hypocrite. Just because "she's seen the light" doesn't mean that she's right. She reminds me of my born again christian brother in law who feels because he's found god everyone else has to, or else. I think she's been hard on Vlad and agree with the comments that by dumping South Andhrilanka on her, Vlad is teaching her what it is like to be in his shoes. Yes i meant that she doesn't want to be an "easterner" anymore. Easterner is a dragaeran term used to describe "humans". They are the lowest of the low accordinf to the Dragaeran hierarchy. She wants to see an end to class and racial distinctions. John Barbato From singram at videotron.ca Tue Aug 27 07:35:01 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:35:01 -0400 Subject: The *real* thing? References: <20020826225433.6C72426E2A@boredom.ennui.org> <003d01c24d5c$56b30ce0$6401a8c0@zaphod> Message-ID: <004901c24dd6$ed525050$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Schwartz" To: "SKZB List" ; "magical truthsaying bastard roney!" Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 7:57 PM Subject: Re: The *real* thing? > I was actually mostly dissapointed in Vlad in that story. Cawti had > undergone a pretty radical change, but seemed to have a clear understanding > of who she was, and what she was doing with her life. Vlad was still Vlad.. > reacting, surviving, but not really *contributing*. Granted the changes > taking place in Vlad's life were painful, and he dealt with them the only > way he understood how. "Not really *contributing*" Yeeesh. No, he was too busy PAYING THE RENT and other non-contributing things like that. I think this whole Cawti came up once before (which is fine, membership changes, subjects slip and slide and are never really done with) but my opinion on Cawti's social activism hasn't really changed. You do realize, of course, that aside from the odd contract for Vlad, Cawti wasn't doing a bloody thing? I don't have the books in front of me yet I don't seem to recall her cooking or cleaning or doing anything to contribute to the household or bring money into it (and yes, there were examples of Vlad doing both). Now being idle all the time, it's quite easy to 'undergo radical changes'. Vlad, working (and 'working') everyday, is submerged in empire and the Jhereg, of course he isn't going to sympathise with Cawti or the new ideals that she brought home from the market one day. > I care enough about the characters to want them to rebuild a loving > relationship, but I simply can't see how that would happen after some of the > revelations in Issola. How would the new Cawti react to the idea of the > whole world being controlled by the gods? How would she feel about the > harvesting of souls that are useful for the gods purposes? What have the > gods done to manipulate her husband through his life/lives? That mess is not > going to help them reconcile. > Heh, no it isn't. I'm looking forward to reading about it, however! -Scott From rachael at daedala.net Tue Aug 27 08:13:06 2002 From: rachael at daedala.net (Rachael Lininger) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:13:06 -0500 (CDT) Subject: The *real* thing? In-Reply-To: <004901c24dd6$ed525050$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: On Aug 27, Scott Ingram said: >"Not really *contributing*" Yeeesh. No, he was too busy PAYING THE RENT and >other non-contributing things like that. > >I think this whole Cawti came up once before (which is fine, membership >changes, subjects slip and slide and are never really done with) but my >opinion on Cawti's social activism hasn't really changed. You do realize, of >course, that aside from the odd contract for Vlad, Cawti wasn't doing a >bloody thing? I don't have the books in front of me yet I don't seem to >recall her cooking or cleaning or doing anything to contribute to the >household or bring money into it (and yes, there were examples of Vlad doing >both). It's quite clear that Cawti and Vlad traded off cooking. Also, just because Vlad didn't talk about what she did doesn't mean she didn't do anything. His focus was very much not on who was doing what regarding his home life. Rachael -- Rachael From the Dilbert Newsletter: Lininger "You should talk to her. rachael@ She is a minefield of information." daedala.net From rick at 404.978.org Tue Aug 27 09:20:26 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 12:20:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: This little Cawti went to market... In-Reply-To: <004901c24dd6$ed525050$17ecca18@ingram> References: <20020826225433.6C72426E2A@boredom.ennui.org> <003d01c24d5c$56b30ce0$6401a8c0@zaphod> <004901c24dd6$ed525050$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: <1347.192.168.1.1.1030465226.squirrel@404.978.org> Scott Ingram said: > I think this whole Cawti came up once before (which is fine, membership > changes, subjects slip and slide and are never really done with) but my > opinion on Cawti's social activism hasn't really changed. You do > realize, of course, that aside from the odd contract for Vlad, Cawti > wasn't doing a bloody thing? I don't have the books in front of me yet I > don't seem to recall her cooking or cleaning or doing anything to > contribute to the household or bring money into it (and yes, there were > examples of Vlad doing both). We've read more than once that Vlad and Cawti took turns cooking and cleaning for meals, and that Vlad owed Cawti some insane multiple of 17 times of doing either, because he'd either forgotten, or was just recovering from another attempt on his life. :) As for her not doing anything else... we really have no idea. Just because you didn't read about it in one of the books doesn't mean that she sits in the same exact spot on the couch, motionless, for the entire time Vlad isn't in her presence. Keep in mind that these books are told from Vlad's point of view, and it's unlikely, with the intrigues he deals with on a daily basis, that he spends a whole lot of time thinking about her taking a trip to the market or emptying the chamberpots. -Rick From singram at videotron.ca Tue Aug 27 09:24:36 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 12:24:36 -0400 Subject: Fw: The *real* thing? Message-ID: <001701c24de6$3cc55f60$17ecca18@ingram> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rachael Lininger" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 11:13 AM > Subject: Re: The *real* thing? > > > > On Aug 27, Scott Ingram said: > > > > >"Not really *contributing*" Yeeesh. No, he was too busy PAYING THE RENT > and > > >other non-contributing things like that. > > > > > >I think this whole Cawti came up once before (which is fine, membership > > >changes, subjects slip and slide and are never really done with) but my > > >opinion on Cawti's social activism hasn't really changed. You do realize, > of > > >course, that aside from the odd contract for Vlad, Cawti wasn't doing a > > >bloody thing? I don't have the books in front of me yet I don't seem to > > >recall her cooking or cleaning or doing anything to contribute to the > > >household or bring money into it (and yes, there were examples of Vlad > doing > > >both). > > > > It's quite clear that Cawti and Vlad traded off cooking. > > > > Also, just because Vlad didn't talk about what she did doesn't mean she > > didn't do anything. His focus was very much not on who was doing what > > regarding his home life. > > > > Rachael > 'K, I'll concede the cooking/housecleaning points. Like I said, I don't have the books in front of me. Also, I hadn't had my coffee yet. :) Ugh, I originally sent the above directly to Rachael, instead of the list From singram at videotron.ca Tue Aug 27 09:28:23 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 12:28:23 -0400 Subject: This little Cawti went to market... References: <20020826225433.6C72426E2A@boredom.ennui.org> <003d01c24d5c$56b30ce0$6401a8c0@zaphod> <004901c24dd6$ed525050$17ecca18@ingram> <1347.192.168.1.1.1030465226.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: <001f01c24de6$c3a8c670$17ecca18@ingram> > We've read more than once that Vlad and Cawti took turns cooking and > cleaning for meals, and that Vlad owed Cawti some insane multiple of > 17 times of doing either, because he'd either forgotten, or was just > recovering from another attempt on his life. :) Okay, I'll take that criticism. Obviously my memory of that book is faulty in places. > > As for her not doing anything else... we really have no idea. > > Just because you didn't read about it in one of the books doesn't > mean that she sits in the same exact spot on the couch, motionless, > for the entire time Vlad isn't in her presence. Obviously not, she's out changing society. > Keep in mind that > these books are told from Vlad's point of view, and it's unlikely, > with the intrigues he deals with on a daily basis, that he spends > a whole lot of time thinking about her taking a trip to the market > or emptying the chamberpots. Good point. And at this point I will concede the housework issue. -Scott From casey at trinityhartford.org Tue Aug 27 09:45:15 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 12:45:15 -0400 Subject: This little Cawti went to market... In-Reply-To: <1347.192.168.1.1.1030465226.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: Rick Castello wrote: > Just because you didn't read about it in one of the books doesn't > mean that she sits in the same exact spot on the couch, motionless, > for the entire time Vlad isn't in her presence. Keep in mind that > these books are told from Vlad's point of view, and it's unlikely, > with the intrigues he deals with on a daily basis, that he spends > a whole lot of time thinking about her taking a trip to the market > or emptying the chamberpots. And the way I read them now, (in hindsight, not the first time through) this is probably a large contributing factor to the breakdown of their relationship. Vlad is a dolt sometimes. Casey From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Aug 27 10:06:14 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:06:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: This little Cawti went to market... Message-ID: <200208271705.g7RH5uC17482@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Rick Castello wrote: > > Just because you didn't read about it in one of the books doesn't > > mean that she sits in the same exact spot on the couch, motionless, > > for the entire time Vlad isn't in her presence. Keep in mind that > > these books are told from Vlad's point of view, and it's unlikely, > > with the intrigues he deals with on a daily basis, that he spends > > a whole lot of time thinking about her taking a trip to the market > > or emptying the chamberpots. Yes. Cawti and Vlad seem very independent, too (a must for any relationship) but they also jumped into it VERY quickly (even in human-terms!!) One minute they're trying to kill each other, the next week their getting married. (Well, Vlad DOES move fast...:) Also, Cawti had Norathar as her partner, and without her probably wasn't as interested in "working" anymore. So she found something else that struck her fancy and that she could work towards. And all in all, it's not a bad goal, even if it IS a totaly preposterous one...:) :::) Chris From bertowud at gator.net Tue Aug 27 10:16:45 2002 From: bertowud at gator.net (Robert Wood) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 13:16:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: This little Cawti went to market... In-Reply-To: References: <1347.192.168.1.1.1030465226.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: <57702.209.208.44.34.1030468605.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> Casey wrote: > And the way I read them now, (in hindsight, not the first time through) > this is probably a large contributing factor to the breakdown of their > relationship. Vlad is a dolt sometimes. Nah! He's an idiot. LOL! Robert From den at monger.net Tue Aug 27 10:11:28 2002 From: den at monger.net (Dennis Higbee) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:11:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: This little Cawti went to market... In-Reply-To: <1347.192.168.1.1.1030465226.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Aug 2002, Rick Castello wrote: [Cawti's life outside of Vlad] > Just because you didn't read about it in one of the books doesn't > mean that she sits in the same exact spot on the couch, motionless, > for the entire time Vlad isn't in her presence. Keep in mind that > these books are told from Vlad's point of view, and it's unlikely, > with the intrigues he deals with on a daily basis, that he spends > a whole lot of time thinking about her taking a trip to the market > or emptying the chamberpots. Unless, of course, Cawti DOESN'T empty the chamberpots, in which case Vlad probably spends a great deal thinking about it. -Dennis From singram at videotron.ca Tue Aug 27 13:18:12 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 16:18:12 -0400 Subject: This little Cawti went to market... References: Message-ID: <003d01c24e06$ded13ca0$17ecca18@ingram> > Unless, of course, Cawti DOESN'T empty the chamberpots, in which case Vlad > probably spends a great deal thinking about it. > > -Dennis I seem to recall that Vlad used the contents of an unemptied chamberpot as an analogy for his mood once. Maybe he DOES spend a great time thinking about it. Of course, he might have been single at that point. I don't remember which book it was in. As I recall, he was talking to Kragar at the time. -Scott From casey at trinityhartford.org Tue Aug 27 13:33:30 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 16:33:30 -0400 Subject: This little Cawti went to market... In-Reply-To: <003d01c24e06$ded13ca0$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: Scott Ingram wrote: > I seem to recall that Vlad used the contents of an unemptied chamberpot as > an analogy for his mood once. Maybe he DOES spend a great time thinking > about it. > > Of course, he might have been single at that point. I don't remember which > book it was in. As I recall, he was talking to Kragar at the time. > Beginning of Yendi I believe, so yeah he'd've been single. When asked how he feels about an unauthorized game being opened in his area... One of the many great lines from Vlad. From mam at theworld.com Tue Aug 27 14:27:08 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 17:27:08 -0400 Subject: The *real* thing? In-Reply-To: <004901c24dd6$ed525050$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Aug 2002, Scott Ingram wrote: #bloody thing? I don't have the books in front of me yet I don't seem to #recall her cooking or cleaning or doing anything to contribute to the #household or bring money into it (and yes, there were examples of Vlad doing #both). Her turn to cook that night, after he'd nearly been assassinated (or had been and restored)-- no it wasn't, it was his, and now he owed her another one. (Then they went to bed, and balanced the accounts, or not, depending on how one figures these things.) In _Jhereg_. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mr1 at rcosta.com Tue Aug 27 14:36:33 2002 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 17:36:33 -0400 Subject: The *real* thing? In-Reply-To: <137.135be5fb.2a9ce0bb@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D6BB8A1.16825.1D14073@localhost> On 27 Aug 2002 at 10:03, Randi128 at aol.com wrote > No, I have to say that I didn't hate the woman either. I thought that > she was misguided, but I harbored no ill will against her. She reminds me of my born again > christian brother in law who feels because he's found god everyone > else has to, or else. I think she's been hard on Vlad . > > John Barbato > Yes, that's why was was so annoyed with her (I hadn't noticed the "Born Again" similarities). I realize that people change, but I felt Cawti's attitude to be one of "I've changed, therefore you, Vlad, should change in order to be like me". Not everyone changes at the same pace - or in the same way. I don't know if I can see Vlad as a social activist. His cynicism is seems too deeply ingrained. MMichele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From seanp at ea.com Tue Aug 27 15:41:48 2002 From: seanp at ea.com (Penney, Sean) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 15:41:48 -0700 Subject: The *real* thing? Message-ID: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A81@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> I don't think the strain on Vlad and Cawti's relationship has anything to do with chamber pots or cooking or cleaning or boredom. They are rich and magically adept. They could pay for a housekeeper or clean the place with sorcery. Both of their lives are exciting (to say the least). I think Cawti got a conscience. She got it, indirectly, from Vlad. She killed him - it was the first time she ever "worked" on a Easterner, and it affected her deeply. She killed him then loved him. Her best friend is a powerful Dragon, basically a professional mass killer (or killer of the masses). These events, plus Vlad's confession to being a Dragon/Jhereg reborn as an easterner, made Cawti THINK about it all. Vlad never bothered - he was too busy hating everything. Cawti stopped hating and started caring. It was the only way she could resolve the hypocrisy of being an assassin, a lover, a Jhereg, an easterner and a friend to the Dragon heir to the throne. From mtiller at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 27 16:15:44 2002 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 00:15:44 +0100 Subject: OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c24e1f$ab596370$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> >AMOF, although I don't remember it I have seen counts of Willy's vocab, and IIRC it's impressively large when compared to >the average USAian's working vocabulary. 20,000 words I'm told. Mark From zaphod at charter.net Tue Aug 27 17:32:58 2002 From: zaphod at charter.net (Greg Schwartz) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 20:32:58 -0400 Subject: The *real* thing? References: <20020826225433.6C72426E2A@boredom.ennui.org> <003d01c24d5c$56b30ce0$6401a8c0@zaphod> <004901c24dd6$ed525050$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: <002f01c24e2a$75e91e00$6401a8c0@zaphod> > "Not really *contributing*" Yeeesh. No, he was too busy PAYING THE RENT and > other non-contributing things like that. I was thinking more in terms of contributing to society rather than contributing to the relationship... As for the problems resulting from Cawti's social awakening, the actual trouble resulted not directly from Cawti's activity, but from what Vlad felt he *had* to do as a result. Remember, that Vlad routinely placed himself in great danger, and Cawti had to accept that. Vlad was unable to watch Cawti do the same without interfering, because he didn't understand why she was driven to do the things she felt she must do. I do wonder how their son is being raised, and what he might think of his father. I hope Noish-pa is able to keep things in perspective a bit for him in the same way he was able to provide Vlad his emotional anchor. -Greg Schwartz From rislyn23 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 27 20:01:14 2002 From: rislyn23 at hotmail.com (Rislyn Feruch) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 21:01:14 -0600 Subject: Cawti and the "revolution" Message-ID: I think Cawti's problem is very similar to the problem the revolutionaries have in general. They've become so involved in fighting for their ideals that they've forgotten to pratice those ideals. Not that tis is an unusual problem. Cawti was given, in fact was practically forced into, the oppertunity to look at her life from a new perspective. She kept this a secret from her husband, the person she should have talked about it with. She changed and then expected him to have changed as well without giving him the time and opertunity to look at things. She knew he's a reactive being. He reacted to her change. She was upset at him for it. I think that it has a lot to do with the fact that she hasn't accepted how she use to be. She despises that part of her; hates herself for it. She is, however, in her mind changed, enlightened. Why should she hate herself? So she directs her hate to someone else she loves. He now personifies the part of herself she hates and has changed. Why hasn't this part of her changed as well? Why does she love what she hates? She's forgotten that he is not her. Now the revolutionaries are angry bacause of the way the individuals have been treated: The empire hasn't looked at us Teckla and Easterners because their cycle, their system works in general. What do they do about it? They forget to look at the individuals and attack the "system". They are now noble. They know how things should be. They have a right to attack the lifestyle everybody has always known and lived by. Vlad probably could have been a really good ally if they had given him the chance; if they have tried to understand him. They don't try to understand why people are having such a hard time with this "wonderful" change. >From: "Penney, Sean" >To: Dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: RE: The *real* thing? >Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 15:41:48 -0700 > >I don't think the strain on Vlad and Cawti's relationship has anything to >do >with chamber pots or cooking or cleaning or boredom. They are rich and >magically adept. They could pay for a housekeeper or clean the place with >sorcery. Both of their lives are exciting (to say the least). > >I think Cawti got a conscience. She got it, indirectly, from Vlad. She >killed him - it was the first time she ever "worked" on a Easterner, and it >affected her deeply. She killed him then loved him. Her best friend is a >powerful Dragon, basically a professional mass killer (or killer of the >masses). These events, plus Vlad's confession to being a Dragon/Jhereg >reborn as an easterner, made Cawti THINK about it all. Vlad never bothered >- he was too busy hating everything. Cawti stopped hating and started >caring. It was the only way she could resolve the hypocrisy of being an >assassin, a lover, a Jhereg, an easterner and a friend to the Dragon heir >to >the throne. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From casey at trinityhartford.org Wed Aug 28 06:53:54 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 09:53:54 -0400 Subject: Cawti and the "revolution" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rislyn Feruch wrote: > I think Cawti's problem is very similar to the problem the > revolutionaries have in general. They've become so involved in > fighting for their ideals that they've forgotten to pratice those > ideals. Not that tis is an unusual problem. This is certainly Vlad's perception at points in Teckla > Cawti was given, in fact was practically forced into, the oppertunity > to look at her life from a new perspective. She kept this a secret > from her husband, the person she should have talked about it with. She > changed and then expected him to have changed as well without giving > him the time and opertunity to look at things. She knew he's a > reactive being. He reacted to her change. She was upset at him for > it. There is at least one explicitly reported conversation in Teckla where Cawti attempts to explain to Vlad that she's been trying to tell him what's going on with her, and complains that he hasn't been listening. She gets mad at him for getting mad at her, for interfering with other people's lives, and for putting other people in danger in order to protect her. She does not need his protection. She can take care of herself. Recall that for the most part you have only heard Vlad's side of this story, except where Vlad has reported her words. Vlad is a dolt sometimes and has been known to ignore what people around him if it doesn't fit with his preconceptions (see Yendi for the prime example). [snip] > Now the revolutionaries are angry bacause of the way the individuals > have been treated: The empire hasn't looked at us Teckla and > Easterners because their cycle, their system works in general. What do > they do about it? They forget to look at the individuals and attack > the "system". They are now noble. They know how things should be. > They have a right to attack the lifestyle everybody has always known > and lived by. I think it is important to note that most of the key revolutionaries are Easterners. Easterners cannot take the same long view that a Dragaeran can. Their lives are Way Too Short (tm). For extra-textual indications of motivations, see Steve's comments about Teckla on dreamcafe.com. I also strongly recommend reading _Freedom & Necessity_. There's a lot going on here. More than meets the eye necessarily on first reading. As I said in an earlier post, I took Cawti's 'defection' much harder in 1987 than I do today, having reread Jhereg, Yendi, Teckla, and Taltos in quick succession in the light of all the other Vlad books. > Vlad probably could have been a really good ally if they had given him > the chance; if they have tried to understand him. They don't try to > understand why people are having such a hard time with this "wonderful" > change. Perhaps Vlad might temporarily have become an open ally, but recall that a) his soul is that of an original Jhereg, b) he has been friends with Morrolan, Sethra, and Aliera longer than he has known Cawti, not to mention Kiera (yeah I know). In any case, I fail to see how Vlad could have been more active and effective in his support than he has turned out to be without ending up unrevivifiable. Casey Rousseau From nytemuse at auros.org Wed Aug 28 19:34:38 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 19:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dragons Message-ID: So forgive me if I'm being stupid, but I'm trying to remember and blanking; did they ever specify what line Kragar belonged to? Also, this brings up another question; how does a line get named? I mean, I know Dragon lines come from an ancestor (e'Kieron, e'Drien, e'Terics, e'Lanya, etc) but I recall reading of someone in TPG, not a main character, who used to be an e'Kieron and then somehow a new line started with them as the "ancestor". Possibly Lanya? ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From Starshadw at aol.com Wed Aug 28 20:02:08 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 23:02:08 EDT Subject: Dragons Message-ID: <106.175b6171.2a9ee8b0@aol.com> In a message dated 8/28/2002 8:34:58 PM Mountain Daylight Time, nytemuse at auros.org writes: > Also, this brings up another question; how does a line get named? I mean, > I know Dragon lines come from an ancestor (e'Kieron, e'Drien, e'Terics, > e'Lanya, etc) but I recall reading of someone in TPG, not a main > character, who used to be an e'Kieron and then somehow a new line started > with them as the "ancestor". Possibly Lanya? That was Barritt you're thinking of, I believe. After his "death," a new line, e'Barritt, came into being. The naming of a family line seems to be only a Dragon trait - I can't recall any other House doing so? Does anyone else? Stacy From nytemuse at auros.org Thu Aug 29 02:41:40 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 02:41:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Mildly Amusing Political-Type Humor Message-ID: Heya, so someone sent me this today from a list they were on and it looked kinda silly. Hope I don't get in trouble for this (but I DID put OT and "political" in the title, so if you look, it's not like you didn't know!) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- I haven't verified it in written text, but, as hilarious as it may sound, the BBC just reported that today Rumsfeld stated (in response to Saudi Arabia's assertion that the United States should not attack Iraq) that Saddam is comparable to Hitler (very arguable) and that, just like the in WWII against Hitler, the United States has no need for support to topple Hussein. On behalf of the citizenry of the United States, I would like to be the first to apologize to the Russian, the British, the French, and every other ally who lost millions in that war, for our military leaders' arrogance and stupidly. ---------------------------------------- From mam at theworld.com Thu Aug 29 05:16:11 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 08:16:11 -0400 Subject: Dragons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Aug 2002, Nytemuse wrote: #So forgive me if I'm being stupid, but I'm trying to remember and #blanking; did they ever specify what line Kragar belonged to? I don't think so. But I suspect that not all Dragons belong to named lines. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From den at monger.net Thu Aug 29 06:02:48 2002 From: den at monger.net (Dennis Higbee) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 06:02:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dragons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Wed, 28 Aug 2002, Nytemuse wrote: > > #So forgive me if I'm being stupid, but I'm trying to remember and > #blanking; did they ever specify what line Kragar belonged to? > > I don't think so. But I suspect that not all Dragons belong to named > lines. I disagree. Dragons are nobility, and I would be very willing to bet that they all have a surname specifying their line. Kragar, being outcast, may be denied the right or choose not to use his. -Dennis From andrew at networkharmoni.com.au Thu Aug 29 06:31:04 2002 From: andrew at networkharmoni.com.au (Andrew Bailey) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 21:31:04 +0800 Subject: Dragons References: Message-ID: <3D6E2218.80405@networkharmoni.com.au> Dennis Higbee wrote: > On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote: > > >>On Wed, 28 Aug 2002, Nytemuse wrote: >> >>#So forgive me if I'm being stupid, but I'm trying to remember and >>#blanking; did they ever specify what line Kragar belonged to? >> >>I don't think so. But I suspect that not all Dragons belong to named >>lines. > > > I disagree. Dragons are nobility, and I would be very willing to bet > that they all have a surname specifying their line. > > Kragar, being outcast, may be denied the right or choose not to use his. > I always felt that the situation was that a Dragon could choose, of course if any other Dragons were upset by your choice you may have to fight a duel or two:) Andrew. > -Dennis > From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Aug 29 06:48:37 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 09:48:37 EDT Subject: Dragons Message-ID: <32.2c384cff.2a9f8035@aol.com> on 8/28/02 Nytemuse asked if there had been reference to what line Kragar belonged to in house Dragon. I did not recall seeing a reference to his line. I looked quickly through the books last night and was unable to find said reference. I guess he is a little sensitive about being from house dragon and chooses to keep his past to himself. Maybe it will be a plot line in the future. Steve seems to like to throw little things like this in and then expand on them later as needed. John Barbato, O.D. From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Thu Aug 29 07:49:52 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 09:49:52 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Dragons] Message-ID: <3D6E3490.C77811E9@attbi.com> Dang! Did it again! -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: Dragons Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 08:51:06 -0500 From: Mia McDavid To: den at monger.net References: Dennis said: > I disagree. Dragons are nobility, and I would be very willing to bet that they all have a surname specifying their line. > I agree with Dennis. Initially, when Kieron formed the Sixteen Houses (was Seventeen a magic number before Kieron? Was there a wheel before Kieron? Were the Paths there before Kieron?) it may only have been *his* descendants who went around e'Kieroning themselves, but knowing Dragons, it's Dzur-pelts to Teckla-scat that they all found themselves heroic ancestors sooner or later. Mia From casey at trinityhartford.org Thu Aug 29 07:54:36 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 10:54:36 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Dragons] In-Reply-To: <3D6E3490.C77811E9@attbi.com> Message-ID: Mia asked: > (was Seventeen a magic number before Kieron? Was there a wheel before > Kieron? Were the Paths there before Kieron?) I suspect we may get some answers to these either in _Paths_ or in _Sethra Lavode_. Whether or not we can rely on Paarfi to accurately report history is another matter altogether. C. From mam at theworld.com Thu Aug 29 07:56:29 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 10:56:29 -0400 Subject: Dragons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Dennis Higbee wrote: #On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote: #> #> I don't think so. But I suspect that not all Dragons belong to named #> lines. # #I disagree. Dragons are nobility, and I would be very willing to bet #that they all have a surname specifying their line. All Dragaerans in the Empire are nobility, except Teckla and the rare outcast, such as Leareth. One way to look for evidence, though it wouldn't be proof either way: How many Dragons do we hear of by name? How many of them are identified by line? #Kragar, being outcast, may be denied the right or choose not to use his. That's certainly possible. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From den at monger.net Thu Aug 29 08:24:59 2002 From: den at monger.net (Dennis Higbee) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 08:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dragons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Dennis Higbee wrote: > > #On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote: > #> > #> I don't think so. But I suspect that not all Dragons belong to named > #> lines. > # > #I disagree. Dragons are nobility, and I would be very willing to bet > #that they all have a surname specifying their line. > > All Dragaerans in the Empire are nobility, except Teckla and the rare > outcast, such as Leareth. One way to look for evidence, though it > wouldn't be proof either way: How many Dragons do we hear of by name? > How many of them are identified by line? That was sort of my point. If all Dragons are nobility (and we know they are), why would there be one set of Dragaons with last names and another set without? _Dragon_ has the most Dragons in it, obviously, and there is a wide enough cross-section of Dragons with surnames to make me think that having one isn't a deliniation of "high" nobility. We know that Napper is e'Drien and Virt is e'Terics, and Napper, at least, doesn't strike me as a nob on the level of Morrolan e'Drien or Fornia e'Lanya. I don't remember if Aelburr's line is given and I'm fairly sure that Ori's wasn't, but that could just as easily be because Vlad didn't know or feel like sharing their lineage. -Dennis From mam at theworld.com Thu Aug 29 08:48:42 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 11:48:42 -0400 Subject: Dragons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Dennis Higbee wrote: [Mark M] #> All Dragaerans in the Empire are nobility, except Teckla and the rare #> outcast, such as Leareth. One way to look for evidence, though it #> wouldn't be proof either way: How many Dragons do we hear of by name? #> How many of them are identified by line? # #That was sort of my point. If all Dragons are nobility (and we know they #are), why would there be one set of Dragaons with last names and another #set without? All Dragons are nobility w.r.t. Tecklas. Obviously, some Dragons look down on other Dragons: nobility among Dragons, so to speak. (Are Morrolan's guards, like Fentor and Ulanor ["A Dream of Passion"], Dragons?) Having a famous ancestor is a good excuse. *If* you have a famous ancestor, you can claim him or her in your surname. But what if you don't have an ancestor who is great enough to inspire respect from other Dragons? You're S.O.L. You don't want to be known as Lord/Lady Floop e'Shnorgle, descendant of Shnorgle the So-so, who defeated four hundred rioting Teckla; so you're just (relatively) plain Lord/Lady Floop. This, I submit, is a plausible explanation for why there might be Dragons who don't use a surname of lineage. #_Dragon_ has the most Dragons in it, obviously, and there is a wide enough #cross-section of Dragons with surnames to make me think that having one #isn't a deliniation of "high" nobility. We know that Napper is e'Drien #and Virt is e'Terics, and Napper, at least, doesn't strike me as a nob on #the level of Morrolan e'Drien or Fornia e'Lanya. I don't remember if #Aelburr's line is given and I'm fairly sure that Ori's wasn't, but that #could just as easily be because Vlad didn't know or feel like sharing #their lineage. OK, that's data. The weight is fairly evenly balanced, and I'd say the jury is still out. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From den at monger.net Thu Aug 29 09:22:44 2002 From: den at monger.net (Dennis Higbee) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 09:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dragons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Dennis Higbee wrote: [Dragons and their names] > *If* you have a famous ancestor, you can claim him or her in your > surname. But what if you don't have an ancestor who is great enough to > inspire respect from other Dragons? You're S.O.L. You don't want to be > known as Lord/Lady Floop e'Shnorgle, descendant of Shnorgle the So-so, > who defeated four hundred rioting Teckla; so you're just (relatively) > plain Lord/Lady Floop. This, I submit, is a plausible explanation for > why there might be Dragons who don't use a surname of lineage. I'm sure that every Dragon by now has a famous ancestor. The earlier you go back into the Empire, using your argument, the more likely it is that you would have single name Dragons. The Empire is now over 200,000 years old. Even if Dragaeran generations are as long as, say, 1000 years, that's still 200 generations. In all that time, I would suspect that there enough heroes for everyone to be part of some lineage. After all, given what we know of Dragons, it seems reasonable that the status of being e'SomethingOrOther would make one a more desireable mate. The more desirable a mate, the more likely one is to reproduce and the more the e'Somethings reproduce, the more of them there are to mate with. By now, 200 generations on, I'd suspect that the e'Somethings have competetely taken over, even if they didn't start out that way. > #_Dragon_ has the most Dragons in it, obviously, and there is a wide enough > #cross-section of Dragons with surnames to make me think that having one > #isn't a deliniation of "high" nobility. We know that Napper is e'Drien > #and Virt is e'Terics, and Napper, at least, doesn't strike me as a nob on > #the level of Morrolan e'Drien or Fornia e'Lanya. I don't remember if > #Aelburr's line is given and I'm fairly sure that Ori's wasn't, but that > #could just as easily be because Vlad didn't know or feel like sharing > #their lineage. > > OK, that's data. The weight is fairly evenly balanced, and I'd say the > jury is still out. Yeah, it proves nothing, unless I missed references to the lineage of the rest of the Dragons in the book. (And even then...) -Dennis From casey at trinityhartford.org Thu Aug 29 09:44:54 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 12:44:54 -0400 Subject: Dragons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dennis wrote: > That was sort of my point. If all Dragons are nobility (and we know they > are), why would there be one set of Dragaons with last names and another > set without? > > _Dragon_ has the most Dragons in it, obviously, and there is a > wide enough > cross-section of Dragons with surnames to make me think that having one > isn't a deliniation of "high" nobility. We know that Napper is e'Drien > and Virt is e'Terics, and Napper, at least, doesn't strike me as a nob on > the level of Morrolan e'Drien or Fornia e'Lanya. I don't remember if > Aelburr's line is given and I'm fairly sure that Ori's wasn't, but that > could just as easily be because Vlad didn't know or feel like sharing > their lineage. Mark replied: > *If* you have a famous ancestor, you can claim him or her in your > surname. But what if you don't have an ancestor who is great enough to > inspire respect from other Dragons? You're S.O.L. You don't want to be > known as Lord/Lady Floop e'Shnorgle, descendant of Shnorgle the So-so, > who defeated four hundred rioting Teckla; so you're just (relatively) > plain Lord/Lady Floop. This, I submit, is a plausible explanation for > why there might be Dragons who don't use a surname of lineage. What's interesting to me is that there is discussion I think in _Yendi_ that the Dragon Council had met prior to the interregnum and decided that the next Dragon heir should be e'Lanya, which is why Norathar becomes the heir, but before she resurfaces, Aliera e'Kieron, and Morrolan e'Drien had been the Dragon heirs to the throne. Seems to be all a bit arbitrary. There seems to be a mixture of personal selection of surname (as evidenced by the e'Barritt line) and simple passage of the surname from parent to child. What I haven't noticed is a) if any lines are named for female heroes, and b) any evidence of a Dragon taking their mother's surname as opposed to their father's. See also a discussion on Drageran surnames (including a bit on Dragon surnames in particular) on Mark's site http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/names.html#Dragaeran From nytemuse at auros.org Thu Aug 29 09:54:57 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 09:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dragons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Casey Rousseau wrote: > What's interesting to me is that there is discussion I think in _Yendi_ that > the Dragon Council had met prior to the interregnum and decided that the > next Dragon heir should be e'Lanya, which is why Norathar becomes the heir, > but before she resurfaces, Aliera e'Kieron, and Morrolan e'Drien had been > the Dragon heirs to the throne. Seems to be all a bit arbitrary. There > seems to be a mixture of personal selection of surname (as evidenced by the > e'Barritt line) and simple passage of the surname from parent to child. > What I haven't noticed is a) if any lines are named for female heroes, and > b) any evidence of a Dragon taking their mother's surname as opposed to > their father's. In my limited experience, I was led to think that Lanya and/or Terics were female...but I could be wrong. Yeah, I always wondered about the line of ascension. I could understand why Aliera would be the next heir (being e'Kieron, and Adron's daughter). Could the whole creating the Sea of Chaos have caused a certain amount of shame or dishonor or distrust from the Dragon Council on Adron's line, so that if a more suitable line was surviving, they'd prefer them to be the heir? Or possibly does Norathar have any other redeeming features or special accolades that would make her a better heir? ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Aug 29 10:04:05 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 10:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dragons Message-ID: <200208291703.g7TH3kC20419@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > a) if any lines are named for female heroes, and I recall the one about the male/female switch, Drien. Does she/he count? :) Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Aug 29 10:44:51 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 13:44:51 EDT Subject: Dragons Message-ID: <1a5.7968786.2a9fb793@aol.com> In a message dated 8/29/2002 10:55:18 AM Mountain Daylight Time, nytemuse at auros.org writes: > In my limited experience, I was led to think that Lanya and/or Terics were > female...but I could be wrong. > Yeah, I always wondered about the line of ascension. I could understand > why Aliera would be the next heir (being e'Kieron, and Adron's > daughter). Could the whole creating the Sea of Chaos have caused a > certain amount of shame or dishonor or distrust from the Dragon Council on > Adron's line, so that if a more suitable line was surviving, they'd prefer > them to be the heir? Or possibly does Norathar have any other redeeming > features or special accolades that would make her a better heir? > Well, I remember that Aliera was looking into the e'Lanya line because it was "purer" - at least, that's what I recall. Which of course, begs the question: what does "purer" mean? I could hazard a guess and say it means that the line in question bred with fewer "lower nobility" Dragons than other lines. Stacy From mam at theworld.com Thu Aug 29 11:00:47 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 14:00:47 -0400 Subject: Dragons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Casey Rousseau wrote: #What I haven't noticed is a) if any lines are named for female heroes, and [...] #See also a discussion on Drageran surnames (including a bit on Dragon #surnames in particular) on Mark's site #http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/names.html#Dragaeran I'm AFB (away from books) at the moment, but that section -- more precisely, http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/names.html#D-surnames -- contains this: >>> Marish'Chala, the eponym of the e'Marish'Chala line of the Dragon to which Kathana e'Marish'Chala belongs, was called Marishori Cvorunn Chalionara. [TPG126] <<< Wasn't Marishori (etc.) female? -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From casey at trinityhartford.org Thu Aug 29 11:11:54 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 14:11:54 -0400 Subject: Dragons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark wrote: > > Marish'Chala, the eponym of the e'Marish'Chala line of the Dragon to > which Kathana e'Marish'Chala belongs, was called Marishori Cvorunn > Chalionara. [TPG126] > <<< > > Wasn't Marishori (etc.) female? Mmm. I wondered about that when I reread that section of your site. The name has a female "flavor"* to it in my mind, but I haven't read TPG lately. I'm hoping to finish my reread of Vlad books and then the Khaavren histories by the time Paths comes out in November. I only got as far as the beginning of Phoenix on my vacation last week. Too many hours wiled away playing cards. :) Casey * Flavor was the best fit I could come up with to describe the indistinct memory - hard to describe in words and difficult to nail down, but recognizable nonetheless. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Thu Aug 29 11:06:47 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 14:06:47 -0400 Subject: Dragons References: Message-ID: <3D6E62B7.503A6AAB@earthlink.net> Nytemuse wrote: > > > In my limited experience, I was led to think that Lanya and/or Terics were > female...but I could be wrong. > Yeah, I always wondered about the line of ascension. I could understand > why Aliera would be the next heir (being e'Kieron, and Adron's > daughter). Could the whole creating the Sea of Chaos have caused a > certain amount of shame or dishonor or distrust from the Dragon Council on > Adron's line, so that if a more suitable line was surviving, they'd prefer > them to be the heir? Or possibly does Norathar have any other redeeming > features or special accolades that would make her a better heir? >From what I recall of TPG and 500YA, Lanya is female. I seem to recall in Yendi that the e'Lanya line was originally the line meant to inherit the throne come the reign of the Dragon; this was a decision made by the Dragon Council. When it was suggested that the daughter of the Dragon heir was a bastard (said daughter being Norathar), the e'Lanyas went to war against Sethra and lost. The resulting investigation disqualified the e'Lanya line and thus Adron e'Kieron became heir. This is all pre-TPG. In TPG, we see Adron as heir, and Uttrik e'Lanya seems to have no problem with that. After Adron's Disaster, since Adron and Aliera are both gone, and the e'Lanya line hasn't been cleared of bastardy (is that a word?), the e'Driens get it, with Morrolan becoming heir. But then Aliera resurfaces, so e'Kieron gets it back, and then Norathar is shown to be legitimate, which gets the ascension back to the e'Lanya line. It must be fun to be a Dragon. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From casey at trinityhartford.org Thu Aug 29 11:22:41 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 14:22:41 -0400 Subject: Dragons In-Reply-To: <200208291703.g7TH3kC20419@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: Chris Olson wrote: > > a) if any lines are named for female heroes, and > > I recall the one about the male/female switch, Drien. > Does she/he count? Which book is that in? Sounds vaguely familiar, but I can't pin it down. (This is why I'm rereading the Dragaeran books. There are so many cross references I don't want to miss. After all, it's getting on for 20 years since I first found Jhereg in my local B. Dalton. I'm still relatively young, but the old noggin's getting a bit leaky.) From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Aug 29 11:25:01 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 14:25:01 EDT Subject: Dragons Message-ID: <1ac.7988381.2a9fc0fd@aol.com> on 8-29-2002- Jereg69 wrote- ...Aliera resurfaces, so e'Kieron gets it back, and then Norathar is shown to be legitamate, which gets the ascention back to the e'Lanya line. It must be fun to be a dragon. Gosh I can't believe that slipped my mind. Fun? It must be a godd#$#d nightmare. Thanks for reminding me of that 'trivial' plot line. How could I forget that? John Barbato, O.D. From casey at trinityhartford.org Thu Aug 29 11:29:11 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 14:29:11 -0400 Subject: Dragons In-Reply-To: <3D6E62B7.503A6AAB@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Jose Marquez wrote: > I seem to recall in Yendi that the e'Lanya line was originally the line > meant to inherit the throne come the reign of the Dragon; this was a > decision made by the Dragon Council. When it was suggested that the > daughter of the Dragon heir was a bastard (said daughter being > Norathar), the e'Lanyas went to war against Sethra and lost. The > resulting investigation disqualified the e'Lanya line and thus Adron > e'Kieron became heir. This is all pre-TPG. In TPG, we see Adron as heir, > and Uttrik e'Lanya seems to have no problem with that. After Adron's > Disaster, since Adron and Aliera are both gone, and the e'Lanya line > hasn't been cleared of bastardy (is that a word?), the e'Driens get it, > with Morrolan becoming heir. But then Aliera resurfaces, so e'Kieron > gets it back, and then Norathar is shown to be legitimate, which gets > the ascension back to the e'Lanya line. It must be fun to be a Dragon. Yeah that generally fits with what I just read in Yendi, but I think a close comparison of the accounts in Yendi (and Taltos) and the account you're describing in TPG may show some fuzziness if not contradictions. That shouldn't be surprising, I suppose, but I'm trying to get it as straight in my head as the text(s) allow(s). From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Aug 29 11:33:13 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 11:33:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dragons Message-ID: <200208291832.g7TIWtC05990@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > > I recall the one about the male/female switch, Drien. > > Does she/he count? > > Which book is that in? Sounds vaguely familiar, but I can't pin it down. > (This is why I'm rereading the Dragaeran books. There are so many cross > references I don't want to miss. After all, it's getting on for 20 years > since I first found Jhereg in my local B. Dalton. I'm still relatively > young, but the old noggin's getting a bit leaky.) I *want* to say Issola, but I could be way off, and I've been reading far too much lately (as if there is such a thing!) so I can't recall. Anyone else? I believe Vlad was talking to Sethra, maybe Lady Teldra? His question was: "Who was Drien, anyway?" (or something very close to that) Now I'm curious... Going to have to go look at some point, 'less someone else can come up with the answer... Chris "I feel if a person can't communicate, the very least they can do is shut up." ~ Tom Lehrer ~ From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Aug 29 11:57:14 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 11:57:14 -0700 Subject: OT: Mildly Amusing Political-Type Humor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020829115656.00ac3c60@localhost> Holy Christ. From rsuitor at cjwrfs.net Thu Aug 29 14:51:36 2002 From: rsuitor at cjwrfs.net (Richard Suitor) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 17:51:36 -0400 Subject: OT: Mildly Amusing Political-Type Humor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8g5tmu86phqgnk3o6jdrvkae4i8cki9ifj@4ax.com> On Thu, 29 Aug 2002 02:41:40 -0700 (PDT), Nytemuse wrote: >I haven't verified it in written text, I haven't either. I did find this http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_politics/2223188.stm which has a similar theme, but really is not quite the same. As for the apology - - there's enough other reason . . . Richard From moghan_david at yahoo.com Thu Aug 29 14:16:06 2002 From: moghan_david at yahoo.com (Robert Opramolla) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 14:16:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Mildly Amusing Political-Type Humor In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020829115656.00ac3c60@localhost> Message-ID: <20020829211606.2999.qmail@web20419.mail.yahoo.com> Steven Brust wrote: Holy Christ. Actually, if it is the same article that I read on the BBC web site. Rumsfeld compared Bush to Winston Churchill and that Bush is the lone voice against Iraq, where Churchill was the lone voice against Hitler. It didn?t say anything about us Beating Germany without our Allies. But it might have been in some other sound byte that Rumsfeld muttered. I dislike him simple for the fact that his eyes are to close together. Yes, I know I?m being stereotypical. But he just seems really power hungry. Which only reminds me of that famous quote. ?May you live in interesting times!? I miss the days of being an ?Ignorant American!? Rob --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Aug 29 15:38:17 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 18:38:17 EDT Subject: OT: Mildly Amusing Political-Type Humor Message-ID: I'm constantly surprised by the Bush administrations antics. They are not always amusing. This is one of those cases. I knew winston churchhill, and you george bush, are no winston churchhill. LOL John Barbato, O.D. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Aug 29 15:40:50 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 15:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Mildly Amusing Political-Type Humor Message-ID: <200208292240.g7TMeVC16709@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Robert Opramolla wrote: > I miss the days of being an ?Ignorant American!? Ah, yes. I sometimes do myself... Then I remember that without knowledge, I can't do anything to change the course of events in order to bring about a better world (better in the sense of what *I* feel is better, of course.:) Ignorance can be bliss, but only until It comes and bites you from behind. Heh. Chris (Politically active for the last six years, and bummed he didn't start earlier...:) "He is a lover of his country who rebukes and does not excuse its sins." - Frederick Douglass From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Aug 29 15:46:55 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 15:46:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Mildly Amusing Political-Type Humor Message-ID: <200208292246.g7TMkaC17541@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Randi128 at aol.com said: > I'm constantly surprised by the Bush administrations antics. They are not > always amusing. This is one of those cases. Well, that's a very... kind way of putting it. How many years do we have left? Chris "He is a lover of his country who rebukes and does not excuse its sins." - Frederick Douglass From tmer at eudoramail.com Thu Aug 22 11:48:37 2002 From: tmer at eudoramail.com (Barbara Baj) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 14:48:37 -0400 Subject: Swords, and a tolerable acquaintance with their length Message-ID: -- On Sat, 17 Aug 2002 15:30:46 Sean wrote: >Kat said: > >> That being said, I'm still not clear to what extent the crossbow (outlawed >> at some point by... the Pope? not sure... because it was so effective >> against heavy armor [so I have to ask here - was the crossbow really more >> effective than the longbow because of its massive draw weights, or some >> other factor?]) firearms, and rapiers each influenced the outphasing of >> heavy plate armor. > >I read somewhere that some archbishop, after watching a demonstration of the >crossbow, declared that it was the most terrible weapon on earth and that it >would end warfare completely. > >640k ought to be enough for anyone, right? > Actually, the main difference between the longbow and the crossbow is that the longbow required lots of training to use, since you had to get up the strength to use it. The crossbow, on the other hand, was easy to draw (well, easy is a relative term, you usually needed a crank mechanism or a foot pusher or...) by anyone, and could be fired by almost anyone, and required a great deal less training to use. And because you did use the crank, you could get a lot more poundage than your average longbowman could generally pull. So when you look at it, when you go from an age where skill and training counted in battle, to a situation where your average joe peasant can nail a trained knight from a distance with a weapon that wasn't all that hard to use or require great strength and long training to use...it can be a bit of an unpleasant shock to those nobles who wouldn't use such things. - Barb Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Aug 29 15:51:16 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 18:51:16 EDT Subject: OT: Mildly Amusing Political-Type Humor Message-ID: <180.cedf15b.2a9fff64@aol.com> Chrisf.olson wrote: How many years do we have left? Way too many. The best thing we can hope for is that he chokes on another pretzel---with happier results this time. Biding my time, John Barbato, O.D. From tmer at eudoramail.com Thu Aug 22 12:16:50 2002 From: tmer at eudoramail.com (Barbara Baj) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:16:50 -0400 Subject: Question for Steve Message-ID: Steve: On the RPG list, a discussion has come up amongst two of us, that I hope you'll deign to resolve rather than leave it as a mystery... In the Phoenix Guards series, the tendency seemed to be for rapier and dagger weapons, with Tazendra's blade being the exception. In Vlad's day, did this remain the same, or are weapons like Morolloan and Aliera's more the norm, i.e. Heavier longsword, two-handed sword weapons more the norm and rapier and dagger a thing of the past. Or do things remain the same, where it's a sort of personal preference in regards to weapons? Obviously, different weapon types necessitate some radically different styles to use them effectively. A greatsword versus a rapier would be thing to see, in my opinion, though it might be a very short fight. :) On a second note, the thought popped into my head: Often it's mentinoned that a citizen gets a link to the orb. How is this actually done? I mean, an Easterner can get one by becoming Teckla and Jhereg, one assumes there might be a 'spell' that masquerades as an oath or something. Is that the case, or is it more complicated? Just curious.... - Barb Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From seanp at ea.com Thu Aug 29 16:08:49 2002 From: seanp at ea.com (Penney, Sean) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 16:08:49 -0700 Subject: Question for Steve Message-ID: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A8D@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Barbara Baj said: >A greatsword versus a rapier would be thing to see, in my opinion, though it might be >a very short fight. :) My money's on the person with the rapier. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Aug 29 15:57:14 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 15:57:14 -0700 Subject: Question for Steve In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020829155538.029e4b40@localhost> At 03:16 PM 8/22/2002 -0400, Barbara Baj wrote: > >Or do things remain the same, where it's a sort of personal preference in >regards to weapons? Yep. > >Often it's mentinoned that a citizen gets a link to the orb. How is this >actually done? In most cases, it happens some time shortly before birth. Paarfi will be discussing this in, I think, volume 2 of Viscount. From Starshadw at aol.com Thu Aug 29 15:59:10 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 18:59:10 EDT Subject: Question for Steve Message-ID: <22.2dff2cbc.2aa0013e@aol.com> Barb: The weapons questions have already been answered by Steve - on the RPG website, his responses are posted on the message board. >:) Hope this helps! Stacy From Gaertk at aol.com Thu Aug 29 17:37:12 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 20:37:12 -0400 Subject: Question for Steve Message-ID: <5F34585A.7D69E43C.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Thu, 29 Aug 2002 5:57:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, Steven Brust writes: > At 03:16 PM 8/22/2002 -0400, Barbara Baj wrote: >> >> Often it's mentinoned that a citizen gets a link to the >> orb. How is this actually done? > > In most cases, it happens some time shortly before birth. >?Paarfi will be discussing this in, I think, volume 2 of > Viscount. Hmmm, I would never have guessed something like that. And it leaves the question of how Vlad got his link, since he father didn't buy his Jhereg title until after Vlad was born. Also, Vlad had sorcery lessons before his father's death. I would expect House Jhereg of all the Houses to not count someone as a citizen unless they've bought a title. So how did this all work? Possible answers: Vlad didn't have a link until his father's death, which explains why he isn't very good at sorcery; or Vlad's mother was a citizen (presumably a Teckla); or Vlad was officially a Teckla sworn to his father. Also, House Jhereg is all about *buying* titles, not inheriting them. So how exactly did Vlad get his father's title? 1) Vlad's father made a will specifically giving the title to Vlad. 2) Vlad's father gave him the title >from his deathbed. 3) When a Jhereg dies, all his titles are converted to cash and added to the estate (allowing the House and Empire to tax them), then after the estate is divided among the heirs, they're given an opportunity to buy back those titles (if they can afford it). That last one is my favorite. And note in _Phoenix_ when Vlad puts on his official insignia, he comments that he hasn't worn it since inheriting, which implies there was some sort of official ceremony involved then that he couldn't avoid. --KG From rone at ennui.org Thu Aug 29 17:56:52 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (magical truthsaying bastard roney!) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 17:56:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Question for Steve In-Reply-To: <5F34585A.7D69E43C.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020830005652.C3A6826E27@boredom.ennui.org> Gaertk at aol.com writes: In a message dated Thu, 29 Aug 2002 5:57:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, Steven Brust writes: > At 03:16 PM 8/22/2002 -0400, Barbara Baj wrote: >> Often it's mentinoned that a citizen gets a link to the >> orb. How is this actually done? > In most cases, it happens some time shortly before birth. >?Paarfi will be discussing this in, I think, volume 2 of > Viscount. Hmmm, I would never have guessed something like that. I had seen it mentioned on, i think, rasfw. And it leaves the question of how Vlad got his link, since he father didn't buy his Jhereg title until after Vlad was born. Steve did say "most cases". House Jhereg probably buys a crate of Orb links and hands them out with the purchased title. rone -- {Reagan's} presidency always reminded me of a remark made by a woman to Heywood Broun following Secretariat's victory in the Triple Crown. After the trauma of Vietnam and Watergate, she said, Secretariat had "restored her faith in humanity." I like to think Reagan was the Secretariat of the eighties. - Garry Trudeau From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Aug 29 19:27:56 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 21:27:56 -0500 Subject: Question for Steve In-Reply-To: <5F34585A.7D69E43C.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <5F34585A.7D69E43C.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020830022756.GA12619@infodancer.org> On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 08:37:12PM -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > Also, House Jhereg is all about *buying* titles, not > inheriting them. So how exactly did Vlad get his father's > title? 1) Vlad's father made a will specifically giving > the title to Vlad. 2) Vlad's father gave him the title > from his deathbed. 3) When a Jhereg dies, all his titles > are converted to cash and added to the estate (allowing the > House and Empire to tax them), then after the estate is > divided among the heirs, they're given an opportunity to > buy back those titles (if they can afford it). That last > one is my favorite. Your initial premise (that House Jhereg ONLY provides titles by purchase) seems a mighty big assumption to me. Much more likely is a system which mirrors a standard feudal system in most particulars, including inheritance of title, but allows purchase of titles upon initial entry or to rise within the House. I believe this situation has occured in reality as well -- "bought" nobility never quite being the same as old blood, of course, but in the eyes of the king... -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Aug 29 19:29:55 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 21:29:55 -0500 Subject: Question for Steve In-Reply-To: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A8D@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> References: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A8D@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Message-ID: <20020830022955.GB12619@infodancer.org> On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 04:08:49PM -0700, "Penney, Sean" wrote: > Barbara Baj said: > >A greatsword versus a rapier would be thing to see, in my opinion, though > it might be > >a very short fight. :) > My money's on the person with the rapier. It's never that simple. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Aug 29 19:50:38 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 29 Aug 2002 21:50:38 -0500 Subject: Question for Steve In-Reply-To: <20020830022756.GA12619@infodancer.org> References: <5F34585A.7D69E43C.00048EA6@aol.com> <20020830022756.GA12619@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Matthew Hunter writes: > On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 08:37:12PM -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > Also, House Jhereg is all about *buying* titles, not > > inheriting them. So how exactly did Vlad get his father's > > title? 1) Vlad's father made a will specifically giving > > the title to Vlad. 2) Vlad's father gave him the title > > from his deathbed. 3) When a Jhereg dies, all his titles > > are converted to cash and added to the estate (allowing the > > House and Empire to tax them), then after the estate is > > divided among the heirs, they're given an opportunity to > > buy back those titles (if they can afford it). That last > > one is my favorite. > > Your initial premise (that House Jhereg ONLY provides titles by > purchase) seems a mighty big assumption to me. Much more likely > is a system which mirrors a standard feudal system in most > particulars, including inheritance of title, but allows purchase > of titles upon initial entry or to rise within the House. I > believe this situation has occured in reality as well -- "bought" > nobility never quite being the same as old blood, of course, but > in the eyes of the king... One of the reasons Baronet never quite made it as a "real" title of nobility in England. Also maybe it was kinda late in the game. The association with the Irish adventure probably didn't help either. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From spenn at shaw.ca Thu Aug 29 23:17:48 2002 From: spenn at shaw.ca (Sean) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 23:17:48 -0700 Subject: Question for Steve References: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A8D@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> <20020830022955.GB12619@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <000b01c24fec$f6971d90$883e5418@dontbenosy> > On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 04:08:49PM -0700, "Penney, Sean" wrote: > > Barbara Baj said: > > >A greatsword versus a rapier would be thing to see, in my opinion, though > > it might be > > >a very short fight. :) > > My money's on the person with the rapier. Matthew Hunter: > It's never that simple. How do you figure? From tmer at eudoramail.com Sat Aug 24 10:34:28 2002 From: tmer at eudoramail.com (Barbara Baj) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 13:34:28 -0400 Subject: Topics? Message-ID: -- On Fri, 23 Aug 2002 21:11:26 Matthew Hunter wrote: >On Fri, Aug 23, 2002 at 08:21:51PM -0500, David Rodemaker wrote: >> Has anyone else read _The Club Dumas_ (let's forget the movie please) and/or >> _The Fencing Master_ by Arturo Perez-Reverte? > >Yes, both; they were well done. > >The movie was ALSO well done, only it bore very little >relationship to the book. > >-- >Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) > Excellent writer. I strongly recommend his later books as well, _The Flanders Panel_, _The Seville Communion_ and his latest whose title escapes me at the moment. I think he gets better with practice, so the reading because just more enjoyable. - Barb Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com From dar at horusinc.com Fri Aug 30 03:28:21 2002 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 05:28:21 -0500 Subject: Question for Steve In-Reply-To: <000b01c24fec$f6971d90$883e5418@dontbenosy> Message-ID: > > On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 04:08:49PM -0700, "Penney, Sean" > wrote: > > > Barbara Baj said: > > > >A greatsword versus a rapier would be thing to see, in my opinion, > though > > > it might be > > > >a very short fight. :) > > > My money's on the person with the rapier. > > Matthew Hunter: > > It's never that simple. > > How do you figure? Because a fight is much more of an organic process than simply hack-slash-stab-bleed-die... You then can get into all sorts of qualifiers: Equal skill, equal size and physical attributes, etc, etc, etc. But the world is rarely *that* perfect. One advantage the greatsword has is reach for example, and if even if it doesn't have a point getting poked by a x-lb piece if metal never feels good. If the 'greatsworder' (ugh- That's awkward) is decent he might just use the sword as a staff and that changes the entire tempo of the fight. The other thing is that Greatsword vs.Rapier is a streetfight not a duel, so then you have all the environmental factors that come into play, dirt in the eyes, the odd kick, punch, or elbow, etc. Mind you, assuming to fighters of decent to good skill, I would tend to bet on the Rapier also... But Matthew is right- It's never that simple. David From corwin at mpls.cx Fri Aug 30 06:01:36 2002 From: corwin at mpls.cx (Corwin Brust) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 08:01:36 -0500 Subject: Question for Steve In-Reply-To: <20020830005652.C3A6826E27@boredom.ennui.org> References: <5F34585A.7D69E43C.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D6F2660.9090.8B97371@localhost> On 29 Aug 2002 at 17:56, magical truthsaying bastard roney! wrote: > Gaertk at aol.com writes: > In a message dated Thu, 29 Aug 2002 5:57:14 PM Eastern > Standard Time, Steven Brust writes: > > At 03:16 PM 8/22/2002 -0400, Barbara Baj wrote: > >> Often it's mentinoned that a citizen gets a link to the > >> orb. How is this actually done? > > In most cases, it happens some time shortly before birth. > >?Paarfi will be discussing this in, I think, volume 2 of > > Viscount. > Hmmm, I would never have guessed something like that. > > I had seen it mentioned on, i think, rasfw. > > And it leaves the question of how Vlad got his link, since > he father didn't buy his Jhereg title until after Vlad was > born. I seem to remember something about people getting links through parentage, so I'll go out on a limb and assert that Vlad got his link when his father bought title. As to the actual 'how' of it, I suppose we'll have to wait a read what Paarfi says, then go back to making up our own answers, untill and unless someone more credible is will to address the subject. Corwin From spiderman92 at attbi.com Fri Aug 30 06:52:31 2002 From: spiderman92 at attbi.com (Sunny Han) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 08:52:31 -0500 Subject: Question for Steve References: <5F34585A.7D69E43C.00048EA6@aol.com> <3D6F2660.9090.8B97371@localhost> Message-ID: <000901c2502c$7ccbf680$f4892942@SUNNY1> > > I seem to remember something about people getting links through > parentage, so I'll go out on a limb and assert that Vlad got his link > when his father bought title. > yeah otherwise how could he learn how to use sorcery? I remember, I think in _Jhereg_ that it talks about Noish-pa teaching him witchcraft and his father hiring a tutor to teach him Sorcery. See, when he goes to summon the wild jhereg, he teleports to the clearing, and he found that ironic. wow. Sunny From casey at trinityhartford.org Fri Aug 30 06:50:49 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 09:50:49 -0400 Subject: Question for Steve In-Reply-To: <3D6F2660.9090.8B97371@localhost> Message-ID: Corwin Brust wrote: > I seem to remember something about people getting links through > parentage, so I'll go out on a limb and assert that Vlad got his link > when his father bought title. Further, it is pretty clear that without a link to the Orb it is not possible to perform sorcery. When Vlad laments that he was not a good enough sorcerer to cure his father of the plague that killed him, he does not mention anything about not having a link to the orb, rather he regrets only that he didn't study more diligently. > As to the actual 'how' of it, I suppose we'll have to wait a read what > Paarfi says, then go back to making up our own answers, untill and > unless someone more credible is will to address the subject. :) Casey From seanp at ea.com Fri Aug 30 10:44:27 2002 From: seanp at ea.com (Penney, Sean) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 10:44:27 -0700 Subject: Greatsword vs Rapier (was Question for Steve) Message-ID: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A90@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> > > > Barbara Baj said: > > > >A greatsword versus a rapier would be thing to see, in my opinion, > though > > > it might be > > > >a very short fight. :) > > > My money's on the person with the rapier. > > Matthew Hunter: > > It's never that simple. >Sean Penney wrote: > How do you figure? David Rodemaker wrote: >Because a fight is much more of an organic process than simply >hack-slash-stab-bleed-die... >You then can get into all sorts of qualifiers: Equal skill, equal size and >physical attributes, etc, etc, etc. But the world is rarely *that* perfect. >One advantage the greatsword has is reach for example, and if even if it >doesn't have a point getting poked by a x-lb piece if metal never feels >good. If the 'greatsworder' (ugh- That's awkward) is decent he might just >use the sword as a staff and that changes the entire tempo of the fight. >The other thing is that Greatsword vs.Rapier is a streetfight not a duel, so >then you have all the environmental factors that come into play, dirt in the >eyes, the odd kick, punch, or elbow, etc. >Mind you, assuming to fighters of decent to good skill, I would tend to bet >on the Rapier also... But Matthew is right- >It's never that simple. Well, of course. I wasn't after a review of hand-to-hand 101, but thanks anyway. It's easy to speculate and imagine scenarios where one fighter or another may be the victor. But let's look at the weapons themselves. If the 30"+ smallsword replaced the 40"+ rapier because guys wielding smallswords were schooling the guys with rapiers, well, a weapon that entered the field in the middle ages against a weapon that incorporates all the refinements of the next couple hundred years would be like bringing a knife to a gun-fight. The greatsword was an infantry weapon of the 15th and 16th centuries, not a duelling weapon. So let's speculate. Your average wielder of a greatsword would be a soldier of the line, trained to fight in a line. So I would speculate that the soldier would opt to not use his greatsword in a duel, prefering a faster, lighter blade. But let's say he's foolish enough to go greatsword vs rapier. On reach, well, the rapier fighter doesn't have a problem with that, given his speed advantage, and the fact that he can fight both in close, and has the lunge, which gives him equal, if not more, reach. He just has to be careful not to step into any of the soldier's swings to parry. Avoidance would be easiest and the best way to conserve energy while the soldier is expending it at a tremendous rate. The rapier fighter can go defensive and wait until greatsword-boy tires, or simply wait for a bit too much backswing and pow, 4 inches of slim sword blade enters the fellow's head. And if greatswod-boy starts to use it as a thrusting weapon he's doomed, because now the rapier fighter can engage him blade to blade, pass-step and use his dagger. No future in it =) From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Aug 30 10:55:30 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 12:55:30 -0500 Subject: Greatsword vs Rapier (was Question for Steve) In-Reply-To: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A90@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> References: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A90@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Message-ID: <20020830175530.GD2674@infodancer.org> On Fri, Aug 30, 2002 at 10:44:27AM -0700, "Penney, Sean" wrote: > > > > Barbara Baj said: > > > > >A greatsword versus a rapier would be thing to see, in my opinion, > > though > > > > it might be > > > > >a very short fight. :) > > > > My money's on the person with the rapier. > > Matthew Hunter: > > > It's never that simple. > Well, of course. > I wasn't after a review of hand-to-hand 101, but thanks anyway. It's easy > to speculate and imagine scenarios where one fighter or another may be the > victor. But let's look at the weapons themselves. If the 30"+ smallsword > replaced the 40"+ rapier because guys wielding smallswords were schooling > the guys with rapiers, well, a weapon that entered the field in the middle > ages against a weapon that incorporates all the refinements of the next > couple hundred years would be like bringing a knife to a gun-fight. The > greatsword was an infantry weapon of the 15th and 16th centuries, not a > duelling weapon. We were not discussing exclusively duels. I agree that, in a one-on-one duel, fought honorably, without armor, the rapier has a significant advantage. Yet, those are a narrow set of circumstances. Add armor, the odds change. Add more people (on both sides, to be fair) and the odds change. Limit the ability of the rapier to evade by making the fight take place in close quarters, and the odds change. The fact is, any given swordfight depends a great deal on the skill of the participants. Environmental factors (including choice of weapon) show themselves in the aggregate, but much less so in individual matches. > So let's speculate. > Your average wielder of a greatsword would be a soldier of the line, trained > to fight in a line. So I would speculate that the soldier would opt to not > use his greatsword in a duel, prefering a faster, lighter blade. But let's > say he's foolish enough to go greatsword vs rapier. Or desperate enough, as he may not have a choice, of course. > On reach, well, the rapier fighter doesn't have a problem with that, given > his speed advantage, and the fact that he can fight both in close, and has > the lunge, which gives him equal, if not more, reach. He just has to be > careful not to step into any of the soldier's swings to parry. Avoidance > would be easiest and the best way to conserve energy while the soldier is > expending it at a tremendous rate. Throwing around a greatsword takes energy, but not nearly as much as you might expect if you know how to use it. I don't, but I know enough to use the balance of the blade to my advantage, and that alone makes a big difference. > The rapier fighter can go defensive and > wait until greatsword-boy tires, or simply wait for a bit too much backswing > and pow, 4 inches of slim sword blade enters the fellow's head. And if > greatswod-boy starts to use it as a thrusting weapon he's doomed, because > now the rapier fighter can engage him blade to blade, pass-step and use his > dagger. The greatsword can be used in a very similar move, nearly as fast -- thrust, engage the blade far enough towards the hilt to prevent a quick backstep, step in and strike with the pommel without ever disengaging, then nail the opponent as he staggers backwards. The rapier can't easily strike cross-body with his dagger to counter. Another effective tactic would be to begin with a disarm -- strike at the rapier itself rather than the wielder. Pin the blade, even briefly, and you can snap it, or bend it sufficiently to reduce its usefulness; advantage greatsword, from then on. In short... it's never that simple. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From seanp at ea.com Fri Aug 30 11:15:28 2002 From: seanp at ea.com (Penney, Sean) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 11:15:28 -0700 Subject: Greatsword vs Rapier (was Question for Steve) Message-ID: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A92@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> >Another effective tactic would be to begin with a disarm -- strike >at the rapier itself rather than the wielder. Pin the blade, even >briefly, and you can snap it, or bend it sufficiently to reduce >its usefulness; advantage greatsword, from then on. The rapier fighter would have to be incompetent to allow that to happen. Bull-fighters do not attempt to outbull the bull, and neither would a any rapier fighter with half a brain. >In short... >it's never that simple. Very few things in life are, but my money's still on the rapier fighter. In fact, I'll double down. From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Aug 30 12:01:55 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 14:01:55 -0500 Subject: Greatsword vs Rapier (was Question for Steve) In-Reply-To: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A92@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> References: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A92@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Message-ID: <20020830190155.GE2674@infodancer.org> On Fri, Aug 30, 2002 at 11:15:28AM -0700, "Penney, Sean" wrote: > >Another effective tactic would be to begin with a disarm -- strike > >at the rapier itself rather than the wielder. Pin the blade, even > >briefly, and you can snap it, or bend it sufficiently to reduce > >its usefulness; advantage greatsword, from then on. > The rapier fighter would have to be incompetent to allow that to happen. > Bull-fighters do not attempt to outbull the bull, and neither would a any > rapier fighter with half a brain. If all we consider is what the rapier-fighter allows to happen, then yes, it will be a short fight indeed. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From Starshadw at aol.com Fri Aug 30 12:38:12 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 15:38:12 EDT Subject: Greatsword vs. Rapier Message-ID: I thought some might like to read this article about swords: http://www.thehaca.com/essays/nobest.htm From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Fri Aug 30 15:09:49 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 15:09:49 -0700 Subject: Question for Steve In-Reply-To: <5F34585A.7D69E43C.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <5F34585A.7D69E43C.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020830220949.GA29808@ofb.net> On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 08:37:12PM -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > And it leaves the question of how Vlad got his link, since > he father didn't buy his Jhereg title until after Vlad was I'd say that once Papa had bought the title, he and his descendants were members of House Jhereg, and of the nobility, and all got the link. When Papa died Vlad inherited the actual title, and the land and peasants (and income???) but Vlad was already Jhereg. And this isn't the English nobility, where nobility is really tied to the actual title, and other close relatives are just vaguely noble, and children of younger sons drop out of the upper class (AIUI all). No, entire Houses are noble, and it's hard to escape your House. Although there is some distinction between the noble Houses (everyone not a Teckla) and the Real Aristocracy -- which, ironically, Vlad is more of than some titleless Dragon soldier. But all the focus on nobility is misplaced; Teckla get links too. Basically Papa's title must include membership for the family in House Jhereg, and that's that. -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Fri Aug 30 15:21:23 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 15:21:23 -0700 Subject: OT: Mildly Amusing Political-Type Humor In-Reply-To: <20020829211606.2999.qmail@web20419.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020829115656.00ac3c60@localhost> <20020829211606.2999.qmail@web20419.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20020830222123.GB29808@ofb.net> On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 02:16:06PM -0700, Robert Opramolla wrote: > Actually, if it is the same article that I read on the BBC web site. > Rumsfeld compared Bush to Winston Churchill and that Bush is the lone voice > against Iraq, where Churchill was the lone voice against Hitler. It didn?t *snort* That's so sad, it's almost funny. Comparing Bush to Churchill? Lone voice, maybe, but Churchill's voice was witty and articulate and grammatical. At least AFAIK Cheney breaks the Republican trend of being so silver-footed that you can make a humor book just out of the President's or Vice-President's quotations, like the Quayle Quarterly or _Is Our Children Learning?_ -xx- Damien X-) From scs at di.org Fri Aug 30 20:24:01 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 23:24:01 -0400 Subject: Three brief reflections on Cawti Message-ID: <20020831032401.GA8675@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Three brief reflections on Cawti. First, in JHEREG it's stated quite clearly that Cawti is still doing "work". From the questions Vlad asks her about the Mellar contract, I very much got the impression that she works for folks other than Vlad. This ought to settle the issue discussed earlier in this group. Second, it's clear in ORCA that Cawti is not in the dungeons. Given her intention to remain active in the movement when Vlad leaves, I would assume that either the movement has moderated, Cawti has moderated, or she's become somewhat separated from the movement. Third, I think there's an error in JHEREG. In Chapter 16 (pg 151 of Book of Jhereg), Cawti is tasked with taking out one of the bodyguards. But it is then Keira who says 'Which one am I going to be taking out?' This line (and the next couple of paragraphs) make a lot mre sense if that was Cawti speaking. -- `The skills needed for dealing with a computer are not simply irrelevant to those needed for dealing with people; they are actually a negative. You cannot reboot, reinstall, or power cycle a human being no matter how desperately they need it.' -- me, in forthcoming article From scs at di.org Fri Aug 30 20:24:07 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 23:24:07 -0400 Subject: Generic Dragaerian Joke Message-ID: <20020831032406.GA9440@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Generic Dragaerian joke: Q: How many does it take to sharpen a sword? A: N , and M acting in a manner stereotypical for their type, thereby causing the N to want a sharp sword for reasons stereotypical their type. Example: How many Dzurlords does it take to sharpen a sword? Only one, but there's gotta be 30 Teckla rioting in the streets for him to consider it worth his time. You may now resume your previous activity. -- `The skills needed for dealing with a computer are not simply irrelevant to those needed for dealing with people; they are actually a negative. You cannot reboot, reinstall, or power cycle a human being no matter how desperately they need it.' -- me, in forthcoming article From mam at theworld.com Fri Aug 30 20:52:16 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 23:52:16 -0400 Subject: Generic Dragaerian Joke In-Reply-To: <20020831032406.GA9440@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Aug 2002, there appeared in the consensual illusion known as the Internet: #Generic Dragaeran joke: No "i": just "Dragaeran", in three syllables. (And later, "dragarian" without the silent "e" may be just a slip.) We now return you to the topic of generic Dragaeran jokes. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mam at theworld.com Fri Aug 30 20:57:22 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 23:57:22 -0400 Subject: Generic Dragaeran Joke In-Reply-To: <20020831032406.GA9440@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: How many Teckla does it take to sharpen a sword? Six: one to hold the sword, one to turn the grindstone, and four more to keep them from running away screaming from being so close to a blade. How many Easterners does it take to sharpen a sword? Five: two just to hold it up, one to hold it to the grindstone, and two to turn the wheel. How many drummers does it take to sharpen a sword? ... ... ... Excuse me, did you just say something? -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Aug 30 22:22:56 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 22:22:56 -0700 Subject: Three brief reflections on Cawti In-Reply-To: <20020831032401.GA8675@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020830222217.00abd8a0@localhost> At 11:24 PM 8/30/2002 -0400, Steve Simmons wrote: > >Third, I think there's an error in JHEREG. In Chapter 16 (pg 151 of Book >of Jhereg), Cawti is tasked with taking out one of the bodyguards. But >it is then Keira who says 'Which one am I going to be taking out?' This >line (and the next couple of paragraphs) make a lot mre sense if that was >Cawti speaking. I think you're right. From mneme at io.com Sat Aug 31 16:54:37 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 18:54:37 -0500 Subject: Greatsword vs Rapier (was Question for Steve) In-Reply-To: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A90@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> References: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF6BB9A90@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Message-ID: <15729.22333.138625.318217@hagbard.io.com> Penney, Sean writes: >> Matthew Hunter: >> > It's never that simple. >>Sean Penney wrote: >> How do you figure? >David Rodemaker wrote: >>Because a fight is much more of an organic process than simply >>hack-slash-stab-bleed-die... >victor. But let's look at the weapons themselves. If the 30"+ smallsword >replaced the 40"+ rapier because guys wielding smallswords were schooling >the guys with rapiers, While a smallsword can defeat a rapier...it's not really that simple -- the rise of the smallsword was -more- because it fit the fashion of the time to have a wearable weapon, and because metalurgy made -really- light smallswords possible, than that smallsword provided a clear combat advantage. > well, a weapon that entered the field in the middle >ages against a weapon that incorporates all the refinements of the next >couple hundred years would be like bringing a knife to a gun-fight. This statement assumes combat advancements are linear, and always toward "more deadly". They're not. >On reach, well, the rapier fighter doesn't have a problem with that, given >his speed advantage, You vastly underestimate the speed difference between a lighter one-handed weapon and a two-handed weapon. >and the fact that he can fight both in close, and has >the lunge, which gives him equal, if not more, reach. No, sorry. Flinging your body at your opponent, despite the -tempo- advantage it gives you, is not a substitute for reach. >He just has to be >careful not to step into any of the soldier's swings to parry. You don't know how to use a greatsword. I don't either, but I've seen people who do...and they don't use it the way you think they do. In other words, you have no idea what you're talking about -- you think real greatsword is fought like swordfighting (wheras Mathew clearly has a better idea of what a greatsword fight looks like). -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From zizban at adelphia.net Sat Aug 31 16:58:27 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 19:58:27 -0400 Subject: Greatsword vs Rapier (was Question for Steve) In-Reply-To: <15729.22333.138625.318217@hagbard.io.com> Message-ID: <8AFE1F8C-BD3D-11D6-A4AB-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Saturday, August 31, 2002, at 07:54 PM, Joshua Kronengold wrote: >> well, a weapon that entered the field in the middle >> ages against a weapon that incorporates all the refinements of the >> next >> couple hundred years would be like bringing a knife to a gun-fight. > > This statement assumes combat advancements are linear, and always > toward "more deadly". They're not. > That is true. The Turks had cannons at the siege of Constantinople (The largest designed by a Hungarian, go figure) but they did killed very few people. Their effect was mostly psychological. ------ "Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself (I am large, I contain multiitudes)"---Walt Whitman From zaphod at charter.net Sat Aug 31 17:57:13 2002 From: zaphod at charter.net (Greg Schwartz) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 20:57:13 -0400 Subject: Greatsword vs Rapier (was Question for Steve) References: <8AFE1F8C-BD3D-11D6-A4AB-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <000901c25152$82894ec0$6401a8c0@zaphod> I also know little of real sword fighting.. I was under the impression that the rapier was adopted as the 'swashbuckler' stereotype weapon because cheap mass made armor (i.e. city guard's armor) was often ringmail.. which has certain obvious problems against rapiers and stillettos. -Greg Schwartz From Starshadw at aol.com Sun Sep 1 07:56:21 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 10:56:21 EDT Subject: Wizardry Reference?? Message-ID: <22.2e1d5c34.2aa38495@aol.com> I'm probably wrong, and I'm sure Steve will let me know if I am, but in re-reading Dragon I just came across a rather interesting passage that I had forgotten about.... SPOILER SPACE "His left hand was clenched into a fist, turned up, and held stiffly out in front of him at about chin height, the elbow bent. His right hand and arm were moving, going through various gyrations while the fingers extended, contracted, wiggled, twitched and generally appeared to have a life of their own. Morrolan's eyes were narrowed to slits, and he was breathing loudly through opened lips, creating a very slight whistling sound through his clenched teeth." "The thought, Earth, water, fire and air came into my mind as I compared left hand, right hand, eyes and mouth; but I strongly suspect it wasn't anything that simple. I've seen sorcery, and I've seen witchcraft, and this didn't look like either one. I wasn't certain I wanted to know what it was." Is this perhaps a reference to wizardry at work? Stacy From eshivak at netzero.net Sun Sep 1 08:47:30 2002 From: eshivak at netzero.net (eshivak) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 11:47:30 -0400 Subject: Baen Web Site? In-Reply-To: <22.2e1d5c34.2aa38495@aol.com> Message-ID: Hey all, I haven't been able to access the Baen website (www.baen.com) for nearly three days, anyone else having a problem or have heard of anything that might be causing this? Thanks! Eric From zizban at adelphia.net Sun Sep 1 08:56:00 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 11:56:00 -0400 Subject: Baen Web Site? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4F51BBE8-BDC3-11D6-81B5-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Sunday, September 1, 2002, at 11:47 AM, eshivak wrote: > Hey all, > > I haven't been able to access the Baen website (www.baen.com) for > nearly > three days, anyone else having a problem or have heard of anything that > might be causing this? > > Thanks! > > Eric No luck here, either. Odd. ---- Buy my book! http://hompeage.mac.com/zizban From tyan at twcny.rr.com Sun Sep 1 10:48:23 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: 01 Sep 2002 13:48:23 -0400 Subject: Dragons In-Reply-To: <200208291832.g7TIWtC05990@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200208291832.g7TIWtC05990@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: [Some attributions lost -- *please* leave in attributions!] Chris Olson - SunPS writes: > > > I recall the one about the male/female switch, Drien. > > > Does she/he count? > > > > Which book is that in? Sounds vaguely familiar, but I can't pin it down. -snip- > > I *want* to say Issola, -snip- Yup. From my DbS notes on Issola: ** p138 ** "Drien" ["Shaman" warrior], "brilliant, fiery, talented, creative, powerful, and unstable", [changed genders] - tky From scs at di.org Sun Sep 1 11:03:22 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 14:03:22 -0400 Subject: An observation on Cawti, Vlad and the movement Message-ID: <20020901180321.GA10164@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> An observation on Cawti, Vlad and the movement: In TECKLA (which is placed only briefly after JHEREG), Cawti is full wrapped up in the movement. This always seemed odd to me (and Vlad), as he has no idea how she got from being the apparently apolitical woman we see in JHEREG to what she is in TECKLA. But there's a clue back further. Shortly after Vlad and Cawti meet in YENDI, Cawti refers to 'our people.' She and Vlad have a very brief discussion of it, and then the plot moves on. I came away from that scene with the impression that Vlad didn't care much for Cawtis way of thinking on the topic and that Cawti detected that. It's not much of a reed to build on . . . but here's what I think happend both on paper and off-scene. A couple, hot in the flush of first passion, is not going to focus on things they deeply disagree with. Cawti mentions 'our people' to Vlad a couple of times, gets a negative response, and sets the topic aside for a while. Vlad, the observant fellow that he is, lets it pass completely out of his mind. But Cawti silently continues with the movement in her spare time, from YENDI through JHEREG. She becomes more and more deeply convinced the movement is correct, and knowing the difficulty of the gap between she and Vlad, does not bring it up. Finally, the first murder in TECKLA radicalizes her enough that she commits fully to the movement. But now she's stuck. She despises what she was before, and what Vlad still is. She *knows* she's right, with the full arrogance of the newly converted, and has forgotten that it was a long journey from what she was to what she believes now. So whenever she talks to Vlad about it, that arrogance is in full view. She knows she's right, it's perfectly obvious she right, why can't he see it? Her opinion of her former occupation is not far from the surface, either. It further antagonizes the discussions. Ultimately it ends where we see it several books later. Separation, anger, and non-communication to a degree that I consider . . . well, not criminal (which I originally wrote) but far beyond the bounds of what's right. I'm avoiding spoilers for ORCA and later here, but you probably know what I mean. * * * All I'd intended to write initially was the above. But looking it over, it makes me hungry for the rest of Cawti's story. There is the mystery of her patronymic, which she says in YENDI maybe she'll tell Vlad about some day. And there's the mystery of how she can be out and about so (apparently) freely as Keiri implies in ORCA. Cawti made a long journey in her life to get to what she is in YENDI. Vlads presentation of it probably gives us an unfair view, and certianly an incomplete one. It appears her journey has continued to someplace else by ORCA, but we get no view of it. We know Sethras opinion of the movement: that it might be the right answer, but it's definately the wrong time. Did Cawti come to that opinion? Did Sethra (and others) influence her? Was there a minor but failed revolution that Cawti somehow came thru relatively unscathed? I don't know. But it's a story I'd like to read. And Steven, given your skill, politics and experience, I suspect it's one you could tell very well. Just one more for your groaning plate. :-) Of course, maybe you could pass it to Emma Bull. Seriously. Steve From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sun Sep 1 12:08:11 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 12:08:11 -0700 Subject: An observation on Cawti, Vlad and the movement In-Reply-To: <20020901180321.GA10164@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020901120714.02b51170@localhost> At 02:03 PM 9/1/2002 -0400, Steve Simmons wrote: >An observation on Cawti, Vlad and the movement: I'm very impressed. You've put together pretty much exactly what I had in mind. From Gaertk at aol.com Sun Sep 1 13:32:04 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 16:32:04 -0400 Subject: An observation on Cawti, Vlad and the movement Message-ID: <788E0E68.5B14FC32.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Sun, 1 Sep 2002 1:03:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, Steve Simmons writes: >?We know Sethras opinion of the movement: that it might > be the right answer, but it's definately the wrong time. >?Did Cawti come to that opinion? ?Did Sethra (and others) > influence her? ? I think you mean Verra, not Sethra; I don't recall Sethra ever giving her opinion on the movement. --KG From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Mon Sep 2 00:58:49 2002 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 03:58:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: An observation on Cawti, Vlad and the movement References: <788E0E68.5B14FC32.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <200209020758.DAA22424@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Gaertk at aol.com writes: >> We know Sethras opinion of the movement: that it might >> be the right answer, but it's definately the wrong time. >> Did Cawti come to that opinion? Did Sethra (and others) >> influence her? >I think you mean Verra, not Sethra; I don't recall Sethra >ever giving her opinion on the movement. Hmmm... well, I'll be re-reading those books shortly and will update my notes. I think it's been mentioned twice, and could have sworn one of them was Sethra. But we'll see. -- `The skills needed for dealing with a computer are not simply irrelevant to those needed for dealing with people; they are actually a negative. You cannot reboot, reinstall, or power cycle a human being no matter how desperately they need it.' -- me, in forthcoming article From casey at trinityhartford.org Mon Sep 2 04:39:55 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 07:39:55 -0400 Subject: An observation on Cawti, Vlad and the movement In-Reply-To: <788E0E68.5B14FC32.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: gaertk at aol.com wrote: > I think you mean Verra, not Sethra; I don't recall Sethra > ever giving her opinion on the movement. In Phoenix. She and Vlad discuss it shortly after the siege is broken. From mam at theworld.com Mon Sep 2 07:40:43 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 10:40:43 -0400 Subject: Wizardry Reference?? In-Reply-To: <22.2e1d5c34.2aa38495@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Sep 2002 Starshadw at aol.com wrote: #Is this perhaps a reference to wizardry at work? Interesting! Vlad said something like "'Wizard' can mean a very good sorcerer, or it can mean someone who's good at his job." I don't remember anything about "wizardry" being a kind of magic (or other power), the way sorcery, witchcraft, pre-Empire sorcery, and psionics are. When I read this passage I wondered if Morrolan was using Serioli magic. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From Starshadw at aol.com Mon Sep 2 07:55:43 2002 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 10:55:43 EDT Subject: Wizardry Reference?? Message-ID: <2f.2c76642f.2aa4d5ef@aol.com> In a message dated 9/2/2002 8:40:13 AM Mountain Daylight Time, mam at theworld.com writes: > Interesting! > > Vlad said something like "'Wizard' can mean a very good sorcerer, or it > can mean someone who's good at his job." I don't remember anything about > "wizardry" being a kind of magic (or other power), the way sorcery, > witchcraft, pre-Empire sorcery, and psionics are. > > When I read this passage I wondered if Morrolan was using Serioli magic. > > We know wizardry is a separate magical discipline because Steve has stated it is so. >;) Also, we find out in Issola that Morrolan has the title of Court Wizard (IIRC). But we know very little about what wizardry actually is, or how it differs from the other magical disciplines except for the fact that wizards carry wands/staves of some kind. I hope we learn more about it in future books. Stacy From mam at theworld.com Mon Sep 2 08:10:49 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 11:10:49 -0400 Subject: Wizardry Reference?? In-Reply-To: <2f.2c76642f.2aa4d5ef@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Sep 2002 Starshadw at aol.com wrote: #We know wizardry is a separate magical discipline because Steve has stated it #is so. >;) Ah. Before my time on this list, I guess. # Also, we find out in Issola that Morrolan has the title of Court #Wizard (IIRC). But that's still consistent with Vlad's definition as I recall it: a very skilled sorcerer. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Mon Sep 2 10:04:53 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 12:04:53 -0500 Subject: Wizardry Reference?? References: Message-ID: <3D739A34.47B2D2A4@attbi.com> Mark says: > # Also, we find out in Issola that Morrolan has the title of Court #Wizard (IIRC). But that's still consistent with Vlad's definition as I recall it: a very skilled sorcerer.< Yes, but wizards have staves. Morrolan in Issola has no access to sorcery in the Jenoine prison, but he has access to his wizardry. We learn here that Morrolan carries his staff at all times disguised as a ring on his hand. Mia From den at monger.net Mon Sep 2 09:55:53 2002 From: den at monger.net (Dennis Higbee) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 09:55:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wizardry Reference?? In-Reply-To: <3D739A34.47B2D2A4@attbi.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Sep 2002, Mia McDavid wrote: > Mark says: > > > > # Also, we find out in Issola that Morrolan has the title of Court > #Wizard (IIRC). > > But that's still consistent with Vlad's definition as I recall it: a > very skilled sorcerer.< > > Yes, but wizards have staves. Morrolan in Issola has no access to > sorcery in the Jenoine prison, but he has access to his wizardry. We > learn here that Morrolan carries his staff at all times disguised as a > ring on his hand. There's a passage in (I think) _Issola_ that says something along the lines of "...until you achieve the requisite skills in sorcery, necromancy [and some other skills], then bind your soul into object, allowing you to call yourself a wizard, whatever that is worth." Wizardry, if Vlad can be believed there, requires some sort of biding beyond just being a great sorceror. -Dennis From rislyn23 at hotmail.com Mon Sep 2 13:40:28 2002 From: rislyn23 at hotmail.com (Rislyn Feruch) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 14:40:28 -0600 Subject: An observation on Cawti, Vlad and the movement Message-ID: >From: Steve Simmons >To: Dragaera Mailing List >Subject: An observation on Cawti, Vlad and the movement >Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 14:03:22 -0400 > >An observation on Cawti, Vlad and the movement: > >In TECKLA (which is placed only briefly after JHEREG), Cawti is full >wrapped up in the movement. This always seemed odd to me (and Vlad), >as he has no idea how she got from being the apparently apolitical >woman we see in JHEREG to what she is in TECKLA. > >But there's a clue back further. Shortly after Vlad and Cawti meet in >YENDI, Cawti refers to 'our people.' She and Vlad have a very brief >discussion of it, and then the plot moves on. I came away from that >scene with the impression that Vlad didn't care much for Cawtis way of >thinking on the topic and that Cawti detected that. > >It's not much of a reed to build on . . . but here's what I think happend >both on paper and off-scene. > >A couple, hot in the flush of first passion, is not going to focus on >things they deeply disagree with. Cawti mentions 'our people' to Vlad >a couple of times, gets a negative response, and sets the topic aside >for a while. Vlad, the observant fellow that he is, lets it pass >completely out of his mind. > >But Cawti silently continues with the movement in her spare time, from >YENDI through JHEREG. She becomes more and more deeply convinced the >movement is correct, and knowing the difficulty of the gap between >she and Vlad, does not bring it up. Finally, the first murder in >TECKLA radicalizes her enough that she commits fully to the movement. > >But now she's stuck. She despises what she was before, and what Vlad >still is. She *knows* she's right, with the full arrogance of the newly >converted, and has forgotten that it was a long journey from what she >was to what she believes now. So whenever she talks to Vlad about it, >that arrogance is in full view. She knows she's right, it's perfectly >obvious she right, why can't he see it? Her opinion of her former >occupation is not far from the surface, either. It further antagonizes >the discussions. > >Ultimately it ends where we see it several books later. Separation, anger, >and non-communication to a degree that I consider . . . well, not criminal >(which I originally wrote) but far beyond the bounds of what's right. >I'm avoiding spoilers for ORCA and later here, but you probably know >what I mean. Thank you! This is part of what I was trying to say before but I failed miserably. Maybe I should leave it up to other people to state my opinion >from now on. *grin* _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Mon Sep 2 14:26:33 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 14:26:33 -0700 Subject: Wizardry Reference?? In-Reply-To: References: <22.2e1d5c34.2aa38495@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020902212633.GA591@ofb.net> On Mon, Sep 02, 2002 at 10:40:43AM -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote: > Vlad said something like "'Wizard' can mean a very good sorcerer, or it > can mean someone who's good at his job." I don't remember anything about Probably in Jhereg, Yendi, or Taltos, and check again. I think he says it's more than "very good sorcerer". It's sorcery plus necromancy and foo-foo. And they tend to carry staffs. -xx- Damien X-) From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Sep 2 15:08:05 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 02 Sep 2002 17:08:05 -0500 Subject: Wizardry Reference?? In-Reply-To: <20020902212633.GA591@ofb.net> References: <22.2e1d5c34.2aa38495@aol.com> <20020902212633.GA591@ofb.net> Message-ID: Damien Sullivan writes: > On Mon, Sep 02, 2002 at 10:40:43AM -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote: > > > Vlad said something like "'Wizard' can mean a very good sorcerer, or it > > can mean someone who's good at his job." I don't remember anything about > > Probably in Jhereg, Yendi, or Taltos, and check again. I think he says it's > more than "very good sorcerer". It's sorcery plus necromancy and foo-foo. > And they tend to carry staffs. Yendi, chapter 5, a bit more than half-way through. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/ New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From kknolte at ecity.net Mon Sep 2 16:38:40 2002 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 17:38:40 -0600 Subject: Wizardry Reference?? References: Message-ID: <3D73F67F.3ECB@ecity.net> Dennis Higbee wrote: > > There's a passage in (I think) _Issola_ that says something along the > lines of "...until you achieve the requisite skills in sorcery, > necromancy [and some other skills], then bind your soul into object, > allowing you to call yourself a wizard, whatever that is worth." Almost looks like Lady Teldra would be a wizard now, if you put it that way. Makes me wonder if any Athyra would-be wizard ever experimented with binding his soul into a Morganti weapon, and what were the results. From scs at di.org Mon Sep 2 19:57:17 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 22:57:17 -0400 Subject: Some observations on Fenario vs. the Easterner homeland Message-ID: <20020903025716.GA8036@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> I've just completed