Starshadw at aol.com writes: >In a message dated 7/19/2002 12:06:55 PM Mountain Daylight Time, >rsuitor at cjwrfs.net writes: >> I agree they *wanted* the gateway to open, but Jill wielded the >> closing wand. Therefore, as far as this particular operation went, >> they were on the winning side. >I disagree. Jill was wielding the closing wand, but she was doing so without >knowing. She thought she was wielding the opening wand. Her INTENTION was >to open, not to close. She was on the losing side and thus should have been >annihilated when the ritual ended in closing's favour. ... >I guess to me, given that we're talking about >something subconscious like magic, which is the realm of the mind and soul, >intention is far more important than logistical matters such as which wand >one happens to have in one's hand. I think this is a false parallel -- yes, when writing about magic, you want to have magical reality, where intentions matter, subtext leads into text, and actions (and intentions) have consequences. However, symbols -also- matter -- the whole point of Jack having wrong wand was that -despite- his intentions, by the rules of the game (the rules being a big ugly symbol), he was on the opening side because he was holding the opening wand. The key question is whether the "death of the losing side" is based on the symbolic (technical actions matter) level, or on the subtext (intention and forshadowing matters) level -- I -think- it's clear that it's only on the symbolic level that "loser's death" is required...which means that since Jill was holding the closer's wand, she was, de facto, a closer. The second question is why Jack survives -- I'd say that rather than this being because he dropped the opener's wand, it's because he's unkillable -- he doesn't expect to die if he loses to begin with, and his (known) survival makes it clear that he's an exception to this "rule". -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-'