On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Steven Brust wrote: #Because you didn't answer the general, I'm going to assume that, #more-or-less, we agree--some changes are good, and some are not. This #means we can get on to arguing about specific cases. Yes, we agree in general. #It seems to me that there is a phenomenon in language where a phrase #appears to say more than it does. That is, certain phrases cast an #illusion of meaning beyond the meaning. In another post, I gave the #classic example of, "Susan and I are having a relationship." This means #less than, (usually and in my opinion) both speaker and listener think it #means. Trying to define what they mean by this will show you what I mean. # #Q: Do you agree, even if not with the example of "relationship" with the #phenomenon? Sure, but. Much of what we say and write depends on implications beyond the literal meaning. #My problem with "hopefully" is exactly here. The illusion of saying more #than is actually said irritates me. To me, this outweighs the advantages #you mention. What is "actually said"? This comes down to asking for a strict definition of the word in this usage. I rather suspect that for a lot of people who use the word, *if* one could elicit such a definition from them [not easy, and not always possible at all], it would be different >from the one you're using and basing your irritation on. After all, they've picked up this usage from other people's usage, in context, the way most language change develops -- not by consulting a dictionary. Suppose that, to most people, "Hopefully, S" (where S is a sentence) means "I'm optimistic that S. I predict S, I'm not sure of it, but I more expect S than not-S, and I prefer S." How would you feel about the usage then? #>I am going to have to drop out of this discussion soon because it's #>absorbing me too much. Phooey. # #I will be *very* sorry to lose you from this discussion. Me, too. I'm trying to limit myself to this one. -- Mark A. Mandel