Dragaera

OT: Subjectivity vs. Objectivity (was: bois...)

Penney, Sean seanp at ea.com
Thu Aug 22 14:54:37 PDT 2002

Michelle Goepp wrote:

> My favorite is this: "In America, people who try to
> adhere to [the rules] run the risk of sounding
> pretentious or haughty."

which caused me (Steve Simmons) to write:

>I was sure that line was going to end 'British' rather than 'pretentious
>or haughty'.

Sean Penney writes in response to me:

> I think it is a sad fact that in our schools kids who speak well, are
> good at math and answer questions in class are generally saddled with
> derogative labels - "brain, geek, nerd, etc".

Then Steve responds:

>At first read, it was difficult to see how Sean got from my statement
>to his.  I now assume he's reacting to Michelle and I just happened to
>be the messenger.

>There are certianly cases like the ones Sean describes, but they are
>far from a general rule.  There were some kids treated like that going
>back at least 40 years (I raise my hand as example), but for every
>example I can also think of a counter-example.  In my graduating class
>(1970), the co-valedictorians were also a cheerleader and starting left
>guard on the football team.  Neither exactly hid their light under a
>bushel.  I see current examples of both types in my son and daughters
>high school classes.

>So I wouldn't sweat it.  More often than not, smart is respected.  And
>the situation hasn't changed in 40 years.

I usually yank all addresses except dragaera.info from my reply-tos.  Forgot
to in this case I guess.  

I wasn't so much replying to you, Steve, as commenting on the line "In
America, people who try to
adhere to [the rules] run the risk of sounding pretentious or haughty" and
your little joke - "or British" =)

I know it's true, and it bugs me that our best and brightest school kids
must labour under the threat of being berated by their peers because a few
thugs are worried that maybe that skinny kid in the corner is smarter then
they are.  And our society encourages this type of behaviour by the
nomenclature they use to label them.

But I must disagree with your ordering of general to specific.  Generally,
scholarly kids are targets of abuse, but there are specific examples of kids
who can be scholarly and athletic and accepted (my wife is one).  Generally,
having both brains and brawn is an excellent formula for success.

But those are the exceptions, not the rule.  And I believe the issue goes
back much further then 40 years, and will no doubt continue for some time to
come.  Oh, sure, there is a current trend that celebrates the computer nerd,
but they are still "nerds" or "geeks", even if they are trying to reclaim
and redefine what those words mean.

In general, the mob will ridicule those who make them feel small or stupid,
because in general, the mob is small-minded and stupid.

This is true here in Canada, where we have a less Darwinist approach to
education and society then (we Social-Democratic Canadians perceive in) the
US.

(Those last two comments should be good for a few flames hehe)