Well, y'all have pretty much convinced me there's nothing to my theory of
Fenarians being special (different from other Easterners) with respect
to sorcerous power. Yes, I'd completely missed the bit that Easterners
were admitted to the Teckla and got links to the Orb. Mea culpa. Anyway,
we'll put that one to bed and talk about a few other things that came up.
I certainly bow to Marks superior knowledge of linguistics and his
statements that it's very unlikely that Dragaeran would not have changed
hugely in 200,000 years.
Mark wrote (#quoting me):
> # [[ An aside: I've made the claim that the increased sorcerous powers
> # post-Interregnum are not due to skills honed during the low-power
> # Interregnum days; that's just plain silly. If it were true, folks
> # born after the Interregnum (like Vlad) wouldn't be able to teleport
> # because they didn't get those centuries of skill honing.
>
> ISTR that it wasn't attributed to honing of individual skills, but to
> advancement of the state of the art. And those developments would have
> been passed on to anyone learning sorcery.
Hmmm. OK, I can see a difference between general advancement of the
state of the art and improvement of a individual sorcerers skills.
But the impression I get (translation: I haven't found the text ref
yet) is that sorcery isn't simply better, it's also more powerful.
There have been a couple of suggestions here and in the texts about
why this is so. Simple reasoning tells me the most obvious change to
the world from BI to PI is the creation of the Lesser Sea, and hence
it's the first place to look for a reason why sorcery would change.
Yes, it's possible the Orb improved while in the Paths or that Zerika
reprogrammed it, or that the state of the art advanced. But I've not
found a definitive reference in the text that says `we know *this*
is why sorcery is better.'
Mark, again quoting me:
> #Possible, but I don't think so. Fenarr gets there by going past the
> #lake the bears his name; so I think the Pepperfields is the area just
> #NW of the mountains of Faerie.
> It's an area very good for growing peppers (paprika). The Treaty granted
> the Fenarians the right to *come in* and farm it. It's not their own
> homeland, though I think it may have been disputed -- claimed by both
> sides -- before the treaty. Oughta check the text, eh?
Ah, but I *did* check the text. Here's what I found (paraphrased by
me) in the Prologue to BROKEDOWN PALACE, pg 1-3.
Fenarr finds a land bounded to the west by the Mountains of Faerie, and
falls in love with it. It's a land that Faerie periodicly contends for.
He decides to travel to Faerie to win peace for Fenario. He travels deep
into the mountains to find a passage, but finds Bolk instead. Bolk takes
Fenarr "through the secret ways of the mountains until they came to a land
on the other side, where the sun hid its face from the lords of Faerie."
Note that: *through* the mountains to the other side. Now look at the map.
I think this pretty thoroughly says that the Pepperfields is outside of
what the map tells us is Fenario, and what the text tells us is Fenario.
Yes, the Pepperfields is contended for, just like Faerie periodicly
contends for Fenario. Remember Sethra the Youngers plans in YENDI?
Sometimes the Dragaerans range pretty far afield for the purpose of
conquest. Fenario is the triangular realm *usually* held by Fenarians,
the Pepperfields is an area usually held by the Empire. But things swing
back and forth.
David Silberman writes, quoting me:
> > I don't recall the textual statements about Easterners and
> >Dragaerans not being able to inter-breed; do they come from a
> >reliable source?
>
> Do you consider Aliera e'Kieron, semi-professional genescanner, to be
> a reliable source?
>
> She might be *wrong*, but not about a whole population.
I'm afraid we may have to agree to disagree here. This is the same
Aliera that likes to "indulge in enlightened speculation", as Sethra
Lavode puts it (ISSOLA pg 36). The Aliera who "refuses to believe
[Dragaerans were bred from Easterners], but it is true" (ISSOLA pg
37). Who merrily challenges anyone who disagrees with her to a duel,
including Sethra Lavode, who's forgotten more than she's had time to
learn (FHYA). Yes, I think Aliera could be wrong big time. She's hasty
and she's prejudiced and sometimes she's willfully blind. If Sethra
is to be believed in ISSOLA (and if modern genetics holds) there has
to be an incredible genetic overlap between Easterners and Dragaerans.
IMHO Alieras definition of Dragaeran involves the animal genes inserted
by the Jenoine. If you've got 'em, you're Dragaeran. If you don't,
you're an Easterner. And thus any Easterner/Dragaeran mix would be,
in Alieras opinion a Dragaeran. He just doesn't happen to express his
Dragaeran subspecies as much as a Dragaeran does.
More broadly, we've got this sort of problem all through the books.
Vlad makes mistakes, Sethra makes mistakes, even Verra makes mistakes
(she may be a Goddess, but she ain't the brightest bulb in the box).
Vlad learns things by hearsay, Aliera puts too much weight on her own
opinions, even Jove (Brust) nods. It makes even the textual references
unreliable. They're the best we've got, but we can't take them as
gospel. We should take them as correct until we've got good reason not
to. That good reason is sometimes because of a visible correction in
the text (Vlad spent about 1 1/2 books believing Sethra was 10-20,000
years old). And sometimes it's because the text make statements that
are just flat-out difficult to swallow.
Dave continues:
> > [[ And what about Vlads parentage? I remain convinced there are gods
> > in his bloodline, specificly Verra. ]]
>
> Do you think Verra was lying when she told Vlad that he was descended
> from peasant stock?
The two aren't mutually exclusive. Check the context where she says that.
Vlad asks if it was an ancestor of his who caused Verra to be unable to
manifest in (presumably) Fenario. She replies "No, it was a blood prince
and you are of peasant stock." A few sentences later she says "Don't
try my patience, Fenarian." In both, her words are intended to put Vlad
into his place, as he's starting to irritate her. And we already know
she's capricious. It would make perfect sense for her to tell him *part*
of the truth -- his Fenarian ancestry is peasant stock -- but not tell
him everything. And the books are rife with hints and portents that Vlad
isn't what he seems. I regret that I can't recall the specific text ref
for this one, but doesn't Aliera or Devera once sternly tell Vlad that
he doesn't even know what (not who) he is? Whatever Vlad is, it would
be no surprise to me and no contradiction to the text if it were part god.
Damien Sullivan writes (quoting me):
> > 116, it's clear that the Communist documents that Kelly found and read
> > were originals, and therefore not something translated into modern,
> > er, Dragaeran or Easterner. So we're talking millions of years with
>
> 250,000 years, under odd conditions, and Kelly's bright enough to follow
> linguistic scholarship and use Rosetta documents, if there are any. Which
> there probably are at least with the Lyorn. And who knows about Serioli
> scholarship... Verra didn't say the ancient documents were written in
> modern X.
I'll go the linguistic changes, but will stand by 'millions' of years.
The actual textual ref is PHOENIX pg 116, "many vaults were unearthed
that had lain buried and forgotten for so long that you cannot conceive
of the time." Since Vlad seems to have no problem conceiving of Sethra
being 200,000+ years old, 'millions' looks like a good bet to me.
Damien continues:
> > [[ An aside: I've made the claim that the increased sorcerous powers
> > post-Interregnum are not due to skills honed during the low-power
> > Interregnum days; that's just plain silly. If it were true, folks
>
> I agree that explanation never made sense. But I don't think the Orb now
> is drawing on the Lesser Sea, else _Issola_ wouldn't have happened the way
> it did. I nominate Zerika upgrading the Orb's programming. One could
> be mythic and wonder if it picked something up from being teleported and
> hanging around the Paths, but I prefer Sethra and the Necromancer just
> coaching Zerika on new routines. Hmm, unless it can learn from experience
> on its own.
Interesting ideas, and Marks made some good points as quoted above. Note,
tho, what Sethra says in ISSOLA pg 37:
"... As soon as there was a Sea of Amorphia, there had, sooner or
later to be ... a Human" -- she meant a Dragaeran -- "named Zerika
to craft an Orb that would make this power subject to any mind that
could discipline itself t learn the patterns and codes by which the
Orb translated the raw power of amorphia into the fingers that shape
reality..."
Assuming I'm reading that correctly, a sorcerer uses the orb to translate
the raw power. If raw power has gone up (and it certainly seems to),
an increase in the amount of amorphia would certainly be an explanation.
Heck, more than one of these could be true -- more amorphia, better state
of the Art, better Orb programming, all combining to push the power scale
up and make formerly high-skill things now within the reach of the masses.
Damien notes:
> I recall a vague reference to Morganti weapons as objects of elder sorcery.
It's in that same paragraph in ISSOLA, "a Serioli named Cly!ng Fr'ngtha
that made the Elder Sorcery tangible by embodying it in objects blurring
the distinction between animate and inanimate." I believe that Morganti
weapons are referred to several times as blurring that distinction. But
that's Elder Sorcery, which I'd presume is a prettier way of saying pre-
Empire sorcery. We don't yet know if that's something from the Serioli
or whatever Dragaerans (and the Gods?) used for sorcery before the Orb
and the Greater Sea.
Last of all, someone somewhere commented that Alexx's timeline isn't
canonical. Of course. On the other hand, Alexx does a damned fine job
of citing text to back up his statements. I've looked up an awful lot
of them, and have yet to find a case where I can clearly say 'this is
wrong.' He's also pretty honest about what's shakey and what's not. So
it may not be canonical, but short of new canon from Brust, used honestly
it's about as good as we've got.
(Now watch, someone will find a flat-out error in it... :-))
Ah, great fun . . . thanks to all involved.