From davids at kithrup.com Tue Oct 1 00:18:11 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 00:18:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Phoenix Guards - Lavode or Warlord? In-Reply-To: <40C162F6.3D4603DF.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: Some more stuff I caught upon re-reading the books: On Wed, 11 Sep 2002 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >In a message dated Wed, 11 Sep 2002 4:15:36 AM Eastern >Standard Time, David Silberstein writes: > >> On Mon, 9 Sep 2002 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >> >>> In a message dated Mon, 9 Sep 2002 7:18:22 PM Eastern >>> Standard Time, David Silberstein >>> writes: >>> >>>> This is a question which I always want to ask Steve every >>>> time I read the ending of "Phoenix Guards", and I keep >>>> forgetting. ?Well, this time I'll not forget! [In Phoenix Guards, it is Gyorg Lavode who meets with Seodra in the beginning of the book (and who precipitates Our Heros leaving for Eastmanswatch); yet at the end of the book, only Lytra e'Tenith is accused of having been in the meeting with Seodra - Gyorg is not even mentioned!] [snippage] >>>> Did Paarfi err? >>> >>> My motto: when in doubt, blame Paarfi. >> >> Several hypotheses: >> >> 1) Paarfi is in fact reflecting a discrepancy in the >> historical record: Khaavren's (or somebody's) earlier >> reports or letters refer to Gyorg Lavode, and the records >> of the later testimony mention only Lytra e'Tenith. ?Paarfi >> left this in deliberately, figuring that if *he* was >> confused, so should everyone else be. > >Heh. He does make a comment about not revising the parts >he's already written when faced with new information. > >> 2) Khaavren was the victim of an illusion or shape-shift >> (or memory edit spell), perhaps created by Seodra, and he >> later found out the truth. ?Or perhaps the Orb itself >> *compelled* him to state the truth? (Interesting thought, >> that). > >Hmmm... interesting, but kinda weak. Definitely weak. I re-read some of the Vlad books, and it turns out Vlad has in fact testified under the Orb for the murder of a Jhereg Duke! The thing is, he twisted his testimony (so much so that I find it hard to believe the Imperial interrogators let him get away with it) so that he was not convicted. You can say pretty much anything you want under the Orb as long as it has *some* truth value... Ditto with the notion of a memory-edit spell or illusion. Doesn't feel right. >> 3) Politics: ?Both Gyorg & Lytra were tied to Seodra, but >> Gyorg was, for whatever reason, untouchable, and was left >> alone after the plot was uncovered. The discrepancy was >> Paarfi's way of pointing this out. > >Ooooo... I like this one. A bit more subtle than normal for >Paarfi, but not beyond reason. OK, this is interesting: on re-reading the end of PG I came across the reference to the White Goblet Affair. It seems Lytra e'Tenith was in the White Goblet affair, and in fact lost her position and her head >from her involvement. And at the beginning of FHYA, it says that Gyorg Lavode was the one who in fact uncovered the plot (apparently poison in the White Goblets was undetectable to the Orb, but Gyorg spotted it anyway). Do you see what this subtly implies? I'm speechless with how damn *twistified* SKZB was being if this was deliberate: The scenario is that Gyorg & Lytra *were* both involved with Seodra - but Gyorg redeeming himself 90 years later allowed the stain to be removed from his record (as it were), while Lytra's guilt in the same affair meant that she was the only one condemned in the records of the earlier plot (or even more twisty: Gyorg *was* the only one guilty of plotting with Seodra - but the White Goblet Affair caused his earlier guilt to be shifted to Lytra retroactively)(or even twistiest: Gyorg cooked up the White Goblet Affair himself precisely for to make himself look good after the Seodra debacle!). Or so it seems right now, I may read something later on that contradicts this notion... Damn, but that man is twistier than a bunch of knotted, twisted Moebius knots. Now I'm curious - does anyone who has read "Les Trois Mousquetaires" et "Vingt Ans apr?s" know if there is anything similar in those tales? From casey at trinityhartford.org Tue Oct 1 05:36:03 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 08:36:03 -0400 Subject: Phoenix Guards - Lavode or Warlord? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David Silberstein wrote: > Definitely weak. I re-read some of the Vlad books, and it turns out > Vlad has in fact testified under the Orb for the murder of a Jhereg > Duke! The thing is, he twisted his testimony (so much so that I find > it hard to believe the Imperial interrogators let him get away with > it) so that he was not convicted. You can say pretty much anything > you want under the Orb as long as it has *some* truth value... As long as you are not telling a falsehood. Vlad said something to the effect of 'he killed himself' and comments to the reader that the Duke's death was a natural consequence of his own actions. In other words, it's basically the magical equivalent of a lie detector. Also note that based on Vlad's conversations with Zerika, it is clear that Zerika might well know that a person testifying under the Orb is lying and allow them to get away with it to serve the political needs of the Empire. > Now I'm curious - does anyone who has read "Les Trois Mousquetaires" > et "Vingt Ans apr?s" know if there is anything similar in those tales? Vague recollections - it's been at least 15 years - Yes. I'll probably be getting back to them either just before or or just after Paths comes out. From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Oct 1 09:42:23 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 01 Oct 2002 11:42:23 -0500 Subject: Titles, and the Warlord In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David Silberstein writes: > On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, David Silberstein wrote: > > > > >Hmm. Do we know what happened to Uttrik e'Lanya? I note that at the > >end of Phoenix Guards, he is steward of the Pepperfields under Adron, > >but I don't remember if FHYA tells of him. > > > > Hey, DDB - if you get the chance, could you perhaps grep your > scanned-in copy of FHYA for references to Uttrik & Kathana? I looked, > and while Kathana is mentioned a few times for her paintings, I > couldn't find where, if anywhere, the book mentioned their fates. 500ya chapter 3: "And, speaking of friendship, I heard, some thirty years ago, from our old friend, Kathana e'Marish'Chala. She has married a Dragonlord of the e'Lanya line, whose name escapes me. I was invited ... No mention of Uttrik (though the version of 500YA is from Steven's manuscript file, rather than the published version). -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Oct 1 12:05:55 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 15:05:55 -0400 Subject: Titles, and the Warlord Message-ID: <2CA44379.15594DA6.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Tue, 1 Oct 2002 11:42:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, David Dyer-Bennet writes: [asking about Kathana and Uttrik] > 500ya chapter 3: "And, speaking of friendship, I heard, > some thirty years ago, from our old friend, Kathana > e'Marish'Chala. She has married a Dragonlord of the e'Lanya > line, whose name escapes me. I was invited ... > > No mention of Uttrik (though the version of 500YA is from > Steven's manuscript file, rather than the published > version). Uttrik could be the Dragonlord she married. --KG From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Oct 1 13:10:35 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 01 Oct 2002 15:10:35 -0500 Subject: Titles, and the Warlord In-Reply-To: <2CA44379.15594DA6.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <2CA44379.15594DA6.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: Gaertk at aol.com writes: > In a message dated Tue, 1 Oct 2002 11:42:23 AM Eastern > Standard Time, David Dyer-Bennet writes: > > [asking about Kathana and Uttrik] > > > 500ya chapter 3: "And, speaking of friendship, I heard, > > some thirty years ago, from our old friend, Kathana > > e'Marish'Chala. She has married a Dragonlord of the e'Lanya > > line, whose name escapes me. I was invited ... > > > > No mention of Uttrik (though the version of 500YA is from > > Steven's manuscript file, rather than the published > > version). > > Uttrik could be the Dragonlord she married. So he could. No mention of the *name* "Uttrik", anyway :-). -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Tue Oct 1 16:29:22 2002 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 16:29:22 -0700 Subject: Titles, and the Warlord Message-ID: <200210011629.AA804651548@amish2000.com> >> In a message dated Tue, 1 Oct 2002 11:42:23 AM Eastern >> Standard Time, David Dyer-Bennet writes: >> >> [asking about Kathana and Uttrik] >> >> > 500ya chapter 3: "And, speaking of friendship, I heard, >> > some thirty years ago, from our old friend, Kathana >> > e'Marish'Chala. She has married a Dragonlord of the e'Lanya >> > line, whose name escapes me. I was invited ... >> > >> > No mention of Uttrik (though the version of 500YA is from >> > Steven's manuscript file, rather than the published >> > version). >> >> Uttrik could be the Dragonlord she married. > >So he could. No mention of the *name* "Uttrik", anyway :-). Er. Well, he _could_, but I doubt like heck that our polite and spiffy Khaavren would _forget_ the name of someone by whose side he faced down a whole huge army of Easterners and stuff like that. Besides, everyone knows that Uttrik is really Kragar. ? M"kibabe"J ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ ~ A Pirate Looks At Twenty ~ http://erythros.livejournal.com/ ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ ________________________________________________________________ Get your own evilemail.com address at http://www.evilemail.com From mam at theworld.com Tue Oct 1 13:36:17 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 16:36:17 -0400 Subject: Titles, and the Warlord In-Reply-To: <200210011629.AA804651548@amish2000.com> Message-ID: [attribution omitted] #>So he could. No mention of the *name* "Uttrik", anyway :-). [M J] #Er. Well, he _could_, but I doubt like heck that our polite and #spiffy Khaavren would _forget_ the name of someone by whose side he #faced down a whole huge army of Easterners and stuff like that. # #Besides, everyone knows that Uttrik is really Kragar. Well, that explains why Khaavren forgot his name! -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From casey at trinityhartford.org Tue Oct 1 13:46:52 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 16:46:52 -0400 Subject: Titles, and the Warlord In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark A Mandel wrote: > [attribution omitted] > #>So he could. No mention of the *name* "Uttrik", anyway :-). > > [M J] > #Er. Well, he _could_, but I doubt like heck that our polite and > #spiffy Khaavren would _forget_ the name of someone by whose side he > #faced down a whole huge army of Easterners and stuff like that. > # > #Besides, everyone knows that Uttrik is really Kragar. > > Well, that explains why Khaavren forgot his name! But in any case, Kragar isn't married, is he? From dmc at risecom.net Tue Oct 1 14:38:04 2002 From: dmc at risecom.net (Supratik Lahiri) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 16:38:04 -0500 Subject: Titles, and the Warlord Message-ID: <002d01c26992$d3ea13f0$0300a8c0@blackwand> Woah woah woah, Since when Uttrik = Kragar? That's definite news to me. =D Supratik Lahiri _________ dmc at risecom.net my83dmc at aol.com dmc at mail.utexas.edu _________ "Of course," said Sethra. "You are a Dzurlord, as was he. To the Dzur, there is a ritual to the sharpening of the sword - so warlike and yet so soothing; a preparation for the future, a defiance, a threat, and at the same time, it is rhythmical, and, while so engaged, one is given to dream, and to think about the blade, its history and destiny; and to contemplate and wonder, above all, for what one strives - and always one finds answers to this question, for finding those answers is what it means to be a Dzur." - Five Hundred Years After From davids at kithrup.com Tue Oct 1 14:56:22 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 14:56:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Titles, and the Warlord In-Reply-To: <002d01c26992$d3ea13f0$0300a8c0@blackwand> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Supratik Lahiri wrote: >Woah woah woah, > >Since when Uttrik = Kragar? > >That's definite news to me. =D > Oh, someone is just being silly. Kragar isn't *Uttrik*. Kragar is *Mario*. *Loiosh* is Uttrik. ;-) From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Tue Oct 1 18:58:55 2002 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 18:58:55 -0700 Subject: Titles, and the Warlord Message-ID: <200210011858.AA1435501134@amish2000.com> David Silberstein was being someone who was just being silly when he wrote the following: >On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Supratik Lahiri wrote: > >>Woah woah woah, >> >>Since when Uttrik = Kragar? >> >>That's definite news to me. =D > >Oh, someone is just being silly. > >Kragar isn't *Uttrik*. Kragar is *Mario*. > >*Loiosh* is Uttrik. ;-) Are you _sure_? Because that pokes a real hole in my theory that Loiosh is ACTUALLY Kieron the Conqueror, because there is just no better way of coming back and thwapping Aliera for giving away his sword than to be a smart-aleck jhereg. Also, I have long believed and have now confirmed in my own mind that Zerika _is_ Morrolan, and that Sethra is not only Bruce Wayne but Clark Kent, too. Now IS ANYONE ELSE GOING TO BE SILLY? *glare* _Honestly_, you people! :D ? M"a troll a day"J ________________________________________________________________ Get your own evilemail.com address at http://www.evilemail.com From davids at kithrup.com Tue Oct 1 21:49:12 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 21:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Titles, and the Warlord In-Reply-To: <200210011858.AA1435501134@amish2000.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, M J wrote: > >David Silberstein was being someone who was just being silly when >he wrote the following: > >>On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Supratik Lahiri wrote: >> >>>Woah woah woah, >>> >>>Since when Uttrik = Kragar? >>> >>>That's definite news to me. =D >> >>Oh, someone is just being silly. >> >>Kragar isn't *Uttrik*. Kragar is *Mario*. >> >>*Loiosh* is Uttrik. ;-) > >Are you _sure_? Because that pokes a real hole in my theory that >Loiosh is ACTUALLY Kieron the Conqueror, because there is just no >better way of coming back and thwapping Aliera for giving away his >sword than to be a smart-aleck jhereg. Of *course* I'm sure. I'm never, ever, wrogn. And it all makes sense because... KIERON THE CONQUEROR IS SECRETLY MARIO!!!! That explains why Aliera wants to, uh, "boink" him. >Also, I have long believed and have now confirmed in my own mind >that Zerika _is_ Morrolan, and that Sethra is not only Bruce Wayne >but Clark Kent, too. Ridiculous! Sethra is really *Zerika*. You can tell, because (a) Do you really believe that story that Sethra just happened to find this one last Phoenix? Yeah, *right*. (b) Zerika likes an Easterner. Sethra likes an Easterner. As they say, ah-ha. They're both pervy Easterner fanciers. Or rather, it only makes sense if they're the *same* pervy Easterner fancier. (c) Notice how Zerika disappears all the time. Funny how Sethra only appears while Zerika's missing, huh? Morrolan is secretly Vlad Norathar. Cawti was being really tricky in order to confuse the issue, perhaps because she is really Aliera. Oh, and Noish-Pa is the Warlord. > >Now IS ANYONE ELSE GOING TO BE SILLY? > *I* am *never* silly. I am also secretly Marie of Roumania. From mam at theworld.com Wed Oct 2 11:18:01 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:18:01 -0400 Subject: Titles, and the Warlord In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, David Silberstein wrote: # KIERON THE CONQUEROR IS SECRETLY MARIO!!!! # #That explains why Aliera wants to, uh, "boink" him. Her soul-brother? But then Vlad must be Luigi! -- Mark M. From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Wed Oct 2 14:21:53 2002 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:21:53 -0700 Subject: Titles, and the Warlord Message-ID: <200210021421.AA1025966430@amish2000.com> Mark A. Mandel, whom I'm going to call Dr. Which just because, wrote: >On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, David Silberstein wrote: > ># KIERON THE CONQUEROR IS SECRETLY MARIO!!!! ># >#That explains why Aliera wants to, uh, "boink" him. > >Her soul-brother? > >But then Vlad must be Luigi! ... ... :APPLAUSE: Congratulations; that's even worse than the "because he's not a Marian man!" Quintus Sertorius punchline we had in Latin today. If you can find a way to work in Sonic the Hedgehog, I will promote Morrolan to being Vlad, not just pipsqueak Vlad Norathar. ? M"the real rose of versailles"J ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ ~ A Pirate Looks At Twenty ~ http://erythros.livejournal.com/ ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ ________________________________________________________________ Get your own evilemail.com address at http://www.evilemail.com From rick at 404.978.org Wed Oct 2 14:40:34 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 17:40:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Meta: Mailing list delivery problems? In-Reply-To: <20020927143727.51512.qmail@web12701.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20020927143727.51512.qmail@web12701.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49729.64.158.24.147.1033594834.squirrel@404.978.org> I have seen this message at least 20 times in the last few days. *Please* clear your mail spool or something, Andrew... this is getting ridiculous. -Rick Andrew McGuigan said: > I saw a delay, not sure how long, on my Amazon cover > e-mail post. > > --- David Silberstein wrote: >> I am curious to know if I am the only one seeing >> very long delays >> (more than a day, in some cases, and often out of >> order) in the >> delivery of messages from the Dragaera mailing list. >> Is anyone else >> out there having problems? >> >> This is very recent, so perhaps no one else has yet >> noticed. I've >> compared the contents of my inbox with the web >> archives, and I see >> that a couple of messages are still undelivered. >> >> DDB says that the server IP address changed, and >> perhaps the list >> server is running afoul of this mail server's >> anti-spam measures. >> Having more data would help narrow down the source >> of the problem. >> >> Thanks! >> >> >> From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Oct 3 11:02:27 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 11:02:27 -0700 Subject: Book of Athyra In-Reply-To: <200209201942.g8KJghl8029572@everymail01.reddot.at> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021003110145.02b42ec0@localhost> At 09:42 PM 9/20/2002 +0200, s.schwenk at wtal.de wrote: > > >Oh well, I guess it will be "Athyra" and "Orca", and not >also "Dragon" in there. Correct. And that will mean all 7 of the Vlad novels from Ace will be collected. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Oct 3 11:29:00 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 11:29:00 -0700 Subject: funny the things you catch In-Reply-To: References: <004801c2649b$41f244a0$2b20d118@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021003112850.02aecb40@localhost> At 10:19 AM 9/25/2002 -0400, Casey Rousseau wrote: >Chris Cunningham wrote: > > the gentle one: "...when each is placed in its own position, the > > outline of the secret will be laid bare..." > > no idea. refers to the way in which she assembles her fiction, i suppose? > > by process of elimination this should be patricia wrede, and that's my > > guess, but i have zero confidence in this guess, even after a quick reread > > of her story, "ancient curses." > >Not sure if you were meaning to say this, but it seems to me that the >description could be read as saying 'You can only figure this one out by >process of elimination. Figure the others first and the remaining piece of >the puzzle goes here.' > >Bravo. You convinced me on all counts. Me, too. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Oct 3 11:34:01 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 11:34:01 -0700 Subject: funny the things you catch In-Reply-To: <20020925173943.A26910@gw.dd-b.net> References: <004801c2649b$41f244a0$2b20d118@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021003113222.02aebcf0@localhost> At 05:39 PM 9/25/2002 -0500, pddb at demesne.com wrote: > >I snipped too far, but there was a passing remark about people's >analogues in THE SUN, THE MOON, AND THE STARS. Bear in mind that >the artists' group has five people in it, so a one-to-one mapping >is exceedingly improbable. Correct. In fact, I was trying very hard *not* to do a 1 to 1 mapping in that book. I was taking bits of pieces of all of us (as I perceived us at the time), and, more, of the various *relationships among us* and playing around with them. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Oct 3 11:36:17 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 11:36:17 -0700 Subject: funny the things you catch In-Reply-To: <20020926125526.F18050@gw.dd-b.net> References: <20020925173943.A26910@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021003113519.02aedc60@localhost> At 12:55 PM 9/26/2002 -0500, pddb at demesne.com wrote: > > > Who is the potential ringer, and why? > >I'd thought it might be Raphael Carter, but I am not sure the timing >works out for that. No doubt Steve will now fail to tell us in a >very amusing manner. Uh...what ringer? I mean, last I checked, 7=7, at least for medium-range values of 7. From davids at kithrup.com Thu Oct 3 12:13:07 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 12:13:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: funny the things you catch In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021003113519.02aedc60@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Oct 2002, Steven Brust wrote: >At 12:55 PM 9/26/2002 -0500, pddb at demesne.com wrote: >> >> > Who is the potential ringer, and why? >> >>I'd thought it might be Raphael Carter, but I am not sure the timing >>works out for that. No doubt Steve will now fail to tell us in a >>very amusing manner. > >Uh...what ringer? > >I mean, last I checked, 7=7, at least for medium-range values of 7. > As I understood it, what PDDB meant was that while Scribblies (Original) := { "Kara Dalkey", "Emma Bull", "Pamela Dean", "Will Shetterly", "Steven Brust", "Patricia Wrede", "Nate Bucklin" } there was a possiblity that you intended something along the lines of Scribblies (Some of Original mixed with One from Later period) := { "Kara Dalkey", "Emma Bull", "Pamela Dean", "Will Shetterly", "Steven Brust", "Raphael Carter", "Nate Bucklin" } Which did not seem completely impossible to me at least because Book_of_the_Seven_Wizards[6] uses "One" rather than "She", and the gender-neutral identifier *could* have been a nod to Raphael Carter's Androgyny RAQ: http://www.chaparraltree.com/raq/ But by all means, please, feel free to clarify who you meant. Or, I suppose, you could fail to disambiguate in a very amusing manner. :-) From davids at kithrup.com Sun Oct 6 01:28:23 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 01:28:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useful Stuff Message-ID: Perhaps I said the wrong thing? Did I err? Anyway, while waiting for *someone* to say something, I thought I'd mention a couple of useful utilities I found for grabbing stuff from Yahoo's site. If you have a Yahoo e-mail account, you are probably aware that Yahoo no longer allows free POP3 access to said account. Well, guess what? You don't need to put up with Yahoo's nonsense; you can just download all of your web e-mail to an mbox-format file: http://web.mit.edu/ravir/fetchyahoo/ In addition, you might want to access Yahoo's groups. Some of the groups (like the stevenbrust group, to make this slightly on-topic) require yahoo membership to access the archives, while some are anonymous. Either way, if you want to pull down all of the group's messages to an mbox-format file, you can: http://parthe.lpthe.jussieu.fr/~zeitlin/yahoo2mbox.html If the stevenbrust list moderator is on this list as well, perhaps he or she could change the yahoo group so that the archives could be accessed anonymously? There were a few threads that were moderately amusing. Hmm. Perhaps a copy of the stevenbrust yahoo group archives (cleaned up a bit, since they are full of the SPAM that yahoo attaches to all outgoing messages) could be archived on dragaera.info as well? Just a thought... From davids at kithrup.com Sun Oct 6 12:10:50 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 12:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Souls and Great Weapons Message-ID: [Spoilers for all of the books, of course. You have been warned.] Some speculation concerning Serioli artifacts & souls. [These ideas may be completely wrong. You have been warned.] I had a thought - which might have been obvious to others - about the nature of the "strength" of Morganti weapons, which lead inevitably to other notions about what we've seen in the various Dragaera books regarding souls. Since the strength of a Morganti weapon seems to be unrelated to its size (c.f., a "weak" Morganti greatsword (Drg), or a very "strong" Morganti dagger (Iss)), perhaps that quality of strength might be compared to an attracting force, such as gravity - a Morganti blade "pulls" on any soul close by, or perhaps on that part of the soul that extends out from the body (what mystics in our world would call the aura); hence the deep disturbance felt by those who come near them. Gravity, of course, is an inaccurate analogy. If it were, the greatsword concealing Pathfinder should not have been able to do so - it would have simply added to the "pull" of the Great Weapon. But perhaps the nature of that "pull" is such that one can mask another. Part of the problem is we don't really know what a soul *is*. How are souls created? Where do they come from (is there some central repository of life essence)? Are souls created at all, and if not can they even be destroyed? Maybe souls can split, and that's how new souls are created (and perhaps that's how they can be destroyed as well - split so finely that they no longer have anything like their original nature). Where do they go after death? Well, some souls go to the Paths of the Dead, where the Lords of Judgment try and figure out what they want to do with them, and some souls go to limbo. Yet they seem to retain some sort of cohesion, even in limbo, otherwise, how could reincarnation take place? This travel (to either the Paths of the Dead or to limbo) does not appear to happen immediately, so for a certain amount of time (approximately 3 days), the soul stays "near" the body. It is noted that if someone is killed in a mundane fashion, using a Morganti weapon on the corpse doesn't harm the soul. Perhaps normal death transforms the soul, which is to say, translates it in a direction that the Morganti weapon can't reach, or, to use a quantum mechanical analogy, perhaps it is more like a neutrino of one type transforming into another type, one of which has mass (and is therefore affected by gravity), and one of which doesn't, and therefore, revivification is possible by reversing the transform. Let's say souls *can't* be destroyed, and hypothesize about what Morganti weapons actually do assuming that is the case: What the Morganti weapons are actually doing is taking the soul and transferring it to somewhere else - some dimension that is completely outside of the reality of Dragaera, such that it cannot ever hope to return. In support of this idea, I note that when the Serioli that Vlad and Morrolan met was discussing Blackwand (Magical-Wand-for-Creating-Death-in-the-Form-of-a-Black-Sword), he suggested that instead of "creating death", a closer translation would be "removing life-substance" or (and this is what really supports my notion) "sending the life-substance to..." (and he unfortunately fails to complete the sentence). Now, my notion may be wrong because perhaps the Serioli is only describing how *Blackwand* behaves (although I note that given the above full name, perhaps Blackwand is actually the very first Morganti weapon created, or the strongest Morganti weapon ever created (a black hole to a regular Morganti weapon's mere planetary gravity). Or perhaps my notion is completely wrong because the final word that the Serioli was about to say was something like "annihilation". In Issola, we actually *see* a Morganti weapon acting on a soul, and >from the description, it sounds like the soul is shredded and then stored. Well, that doesn't quite contradict my notion. Perhaps each Morganti weapon has a pocket dimension for storing the souls that it pulls in and shreds. From the point of view of the outside world, it would certainly seem like the soul was destroyed. But if the Morganti weapon were properly destroyed, perhaps the soul-shreds captive within could be released. This may not be useful, other than releasing the life-essence to be reincarnated, but it might still be better than having them trapped forever. Some thoughts about the events in "Taltos": When Aliera's soul is captive in a staff, some have questioned why it was necessary to petition the Lords of Judgment so quickly - couldn't the expedition have waited until Sethra could go herself, or at least join Vlad? But I noticed that when Vlad asked "What is the state of her soul at the moment?", Sethra starts talking about Morganti weapons, which makes me think that Aliera's soul was in danger of being lost to them forever (like the soul of someone more than 3 days dead) or destroyed (like a soul shredded (or transported) by a Morganti weapon). Perhaps the staff was doing very slowly what a Morganti weapon would do? Another question that arose from "Taltos" in "Athyra": How did Loraan come to be undead when his soul was presumably consumed by Blackwand? When Vlad and Morrolan killed Loraan, I think Morrolan must have thought, "We may need him to undo whatever was done to Aliera", and told Blackwand "Hold his soul but don't shred it". That seems sort of obvious, but what happens next? Well, here's a few ideas: 1) Loraan, being a necromancer, has sorcerous machinations in place which are meant to pull his soul in if it ever became detached from his body. Those mechanisms came into play, and slowly reeled Loraan's soul back to its body. Of course, more than 3 days had passed, so either the soul or the body or both had changed to the point where he could no longer go in living as a "normal" entity. 2) Morrolan took Blackwand to the Paths of the Dead, which has its own pull on souls. Perhaps Blackwand would have been able to hold on to Loraan's soul indefinitely in most cases, but was unable to do so in the Paths of the Dead, which are by definition where souls go to anyway. From there, Loraan's hypothetical necromantic soul retrieval routines took effect, or he had his own little adventure with the Lords of Judgment. 3) While in the Paths of the Dead, Morrolan fought the a Dragon and killed her, but (presumably) didn't shred her soul because "[Blackwand] does what he tells her to". Then he fights several other Dragons at once because Vlad has bollixed things up. Perhaps Blackwand couldn't juggle 2 sets of instructions for multiple different souls, and lost hold of Loraan at that point. A thought about Jenoine souls: Ignoring the whole question of what happens after the Great Weapon pulls in the soul, the notion of a Morganti "gravity" might explain why the Jenoine are so tough, yet vulnerable to Morganti (Great) Weapons - they have a personal "gravity" on their souls, or some form of "gravity" nullification, that is sufficiently powerful that even the Greatest of Weapons can't affect them unless the Jenoine is distracted to the point where his control over his soul slips. A thought about Iceflame: As long as I am speculating about Great Weapons, I wonder if Iceflame's name is a broad hint towards its special property, which might have something to do with control over thermodynamics - a Maxwell's Demon, as it were. In fact, I wonder if *that* is why Sethra has lived so long (and needs to eat so little, even as a vampire): Iceflame grants her direct control over entropy, at least on a personal scale. From unitcancellation at hotmail.com Sun Oct 6 13:02:21 2002 From: unitcancellation at hotmail.com (Alex Nixon) Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 17:02:21 -0300 Subject: Souls and Great Weapons Message-ID: No need to make it so complex- perhaps it's the easiest explaination: Morrolan told Blackwand not to do anything to Loraan's soul in the first place. Perhaps Morrolan just killed Loraan normally, allowing him to undergo whatever he needed to do to become undead. I would assume that he needed to go through the Halls of Judgement to do so- after all, that's how Sethra became undead. Alex --Previous Message from davids at kithrup.com------ Another question that arose from "Taltos" in "Athyra": How did Loraan come to be undead when his soul was presumably consumed by Blackwand? When Vlad and Morrolan killed Loraan, I think Morrolan must have thought, "We may need him to undo whatever was done to Aliera", and told Blackwand "Hold his soul but don't shred it". That seems sort of obvious, but what happens next? Well, here's a few ideas: 1) Loraan, being a necromancer, has sorcerous machinations in place which are meant to pull his soul in if it ever became detached from his body. Those mechanisms came into play, and slowly reeled Loraan's soul back to its body. Of course, more than 3 days had passed, so either the soul or the body or both had changed to the point where he could no longer go in living as a "normal" entity. 2) Morrolan took Blackwand to the Paths of the Dead, which has its own pull on souls. Perhaps Blackwand would have been able to hold on to Loraan's soul indefinitely in most cases, but was unable to do so in the Paths of the Dead, which are by definition where souls go to anyway. From there, Loraan's hypothetical necromantic soul retrieval routines took effect, or he had his own little adventure with the Lords of Judgment. 3) While in the Paths of the Dead, Morrolan fought the a Dragon and killed her, but (presumably) didn't shred her soul because "[Blackwand] does what he tells her to". Then he fights several other Dragons at once because Vlad has bollixed things up. Perhaps Blackwand couldn't juggle 2 sets of instructions for multiple different souls, and lost hold of Loraan at that point. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From davids at kithrup.com Sun Oct 6 13:58:03 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 13:58:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Souls and Great Weapons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Oct 2002, Alex Nixon wrote: >No need to make it so complex- perhaps it's the easiest explanation: >Morrolan told Blackwand not to do anything to Loraan's soul in the first >place. Perhaps Morrolan just killed Loraan normally, allowing him to >undergo whatever he needed to do to become undead. While that cannot be ruled out completely, I think that if Loraan had been killed normally, he would have been revivified normally, well within the necessary timeframe (he did have retainers and servants who were still alive, who could have seen to that). > I would assume that he needed to go through the Halls of Judgment >to do so- after all, that's how Sethra became undead. > That's how Sethra became undead, and presumably how some other souls became undead, but is that how *all* undead become undead? I am not sure that that question has been definitely answered. Perhaps it is possible for a sufficiently powerful wizard, skilled in necromancy -- which Loraan most certainly was -- to bootstrap himself to an undead state without the intervention of the gods. From davids at kithrup.com Sun Oct 6 14:18:27 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 14:18:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Souls and Great Weapons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Oct 2002, David Silberstein wrote: > >Perhaps it is possible for a sufficiently powerful wizard, skilled in >necromancy -- which Loraan most certainly was -- to bootstrap himself >to an undead state without the intervention of the gods. > And indeed, in the first draft of Athyra (which I won off of Steve in a game of Assumption Poker, long story there), Loraan is described as not only being unnaturally pale, but also having a slight blue tint to his skin, which proves that his soul crashed into his body. Obviously, it is the Blue Sheen Of UnDeath. (runs off, whistling off-key chase music) From rone at ennui.org Sun Oct 6 15:02:11 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 15:02:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Souls and Great Weapons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021006220211.1ADBC26E27@boredom.ennui.org> David Silberstein writes: And indeed, in the first draft of Athyra (which I won off of Steve in a game of Assumption Poker, long story there), Loraan is described as not only being unnaturally pale, but also having a slight blue tint to his skin, which proves that his soul crashed into his body. Either that or he was taking colloidal silver in a futile attempt to become immune to Morganti weapons... rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From unitcancellation at hotmail.com Sun Oct 6 15:14:48 2002 From: unitcancellation at hotmail.com (Alex Nixon) Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 19:14:48 -0300 Subject: Souls and Great Weapons Message-ID: Not necessarily. After all, the process is shown to be a difficult one, and so it's possible they tried and failed. Or perhaps he knew he would become undead, and left instructions to be left alone. Just possibilites. Alex ----Original Message Follows---- From: David Silberstein >No need to make it so complex- perhaps it's the easiest explanation: >Morrolan told Blackwand not to do anything to Loraan's soul in the first >place. Perhaps Morrolan just killed Loraan normally, allowing him to >undergo whatever he needed to do to become undead. While that cannot be ruled out completely, I think that if Loraan had been killed normally, he would have been revivified normally, well within the necessary timeframe (he did have retainers and servants who were still alive, who could have seen to that). _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Sun Oct 6 15:54:47 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 17:54:47 -0500 Subject: Useful Stuff References: Message-ID: <3DA0BF37.C633B133@attbi.com> David, Perhaps you didn't say anything--I can't recall a post from you lately--haven't gotten any mail from this list in a couple of days. Anyway, I still like you! Mia From davids at kithrup.com Sun Oct 6 19:37:38 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 19:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useful Stuff In-Reply-To: <3DA0BF37.C633B133@attbi.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Oct 2002, Mia McDavid wrote: >David, > >Perhaps you didn't say anything--I can't recall a post from you >lately--haven't gotten any mail from this list in a couple of days. Yes, that's what I meant. Being the last one to post for a few days makes one wonder if perhaps it was one's own words that shut everyone up. It's slightly disconcerting, especially if one was expecting more commentary. >Anyway, I still like you! <*bows*> It is my only hope that I have the honor to amuse you, and that I will continue to amuse you in the future, until the time comes for me to go to Deathsgate. You must allow me the privilege of being cut into pieces for you. (You may perhaps have heard of the event known in the East as "Talk like a Pirate" Day. May I have the honor of suggesting a corresponding "Talk like a Paarfi" Day, here among civilized Humans?) From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Sun Oct 6 20:30:26 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 22:30:26 -0500 Subject: Useful Stuff References: Message-ID: <3DA0FFD2.18D39C8B@attbi.com> I believe I understand you! You would have us all speak in elegant and elevated diction, suitable for use in court and among those of fine sensibility. Truly, I love you for this idea, and would be honored to play my small part in it. Mia From cbickell at bigpond.net.au Sun Oct 6 20:44:01 2002 From: cbickell at bigpond.net.au (Claire Bickell) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 13:44:01 +1000 Subject: Useful Stuff In-Reply-To: <3DA0FFD2.18D39C8B@attbi.com> Message-ID: Mia McDavid wrote on 7/10/02 1:30 PM: > I believe I understand you! You would have us all speak in elegant and > elevated diction, suitable for use in court and among those of fine > sensibility. Truly, I love you for this idea, and would be honored to > play my small part in it. I can see only one flaw to mark such an estimable plan, and that is my own foolish presumption in believing myself worthy to take part. I hope your sweet graciousness can do me the honour of excusing this as an unavoidable product of my overwhelming delight and enthusiasm for this grand project. Claire Bickell, waving hello to people From davids at kithrup.com Sun Oct 6 22:22:32 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 22:22:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useful Stuff In-Reply-To: <3DA0FFD2.18D39C8B@attbi.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Oct 2002, Mia McDavid wrote: >I believe I understand you! Milady is perspicacious. It is indeed an honor to have my humble words accepted by one so noble as yourself. > You would have us all speak in elegant and elevated diction, >suitable for use in court and among those of fine sensibility. Indeed, it is as you have the honor to say. >Truly, I love you for this idea, and would be honored to play my >small part in it. It is too much for me to dare to hope that others in this forum might perhaps be tempted to respond in kind. Except, of course, for that Easterner, Steven Brust, who I understand is required in these sorts of situations to hold his face in his hands and moan words along the lines of "I have created a *monster*". From davids at kithrup.com Sun Oct 6 22:34:37 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 22:34:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useful Stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Oct 2002, Claire Bickell wrote: >Mia McDavid wrote on 7/10/02 1:30 PM: > >> I believe I understand you! You would have us all speak in elegant and >> elevated diction, suitable for use in court and among those of fine >> sensibility. Truly, I love you for this idea, and would be honored to >> play my small part in it. > >I can see only one flaw to mark such an estimable plan, and that is >my own foolish presumption in believing myself worthy to take part. Oh, not foolish at all, nor indeed presumptious in the least. You are indeed worthy. In fact, you are more than worthy: you are welcome. I hope that you will continue to participate. > I hope your sweet graciousness can do me the honour of excusing >this as an unavoidable product of my overwhelming delight and >enthusiasm for this grand project. Your enthusiasm and delight only serve to make your presence all the more welcome. Indeed, your enthusiam and delight shine out in a world that is often sadly lacking in those qualities. >Claire Bickell, waving hello to people <*bows*> From FelixEisen at aol.com Sun Oct 6 22:34:36 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 01:34:36 EDT Subject: Souls and Great Weapons Message-ID: davids at kithrup.com writes: > How did Loraan come to be undead when his soul was presumably consumed > by Blackwand? Actually, it has only just now occurred to me, because we have recently had conversations in regards to the various sorts of magics in Dragaera. Specifically, wizardry. What's a wizard? Something to the effect of 'get real good at X, Y, and Z, then bind your soul into an item and poof, you're a wizard'. We all know where Morrolan carries HIS soul; Blackwand, of course. She's also his witch's familiar, but that doesn't come into this. So when the Athyra wizard Loraan gets killed ... his soul cannot be claimed by Blackwand -because-it-is-not-there-. His body, however, is dead; the wizard can get his soul to the Paths of the Dead and, as souls seem to 'reconstitute' bodies in the Paths, and as well as being something of an accomplished necromancer, he can perform the necessary ceremonies and walk out of the Paths as a member of that most suppressed underclass in all worlds except for Dragaera, the undead. Well, it sort of hangs together for -me-... Knightmarshall Felix Surnamed Eisen, or "Iron Felix" Hand of Morr, The Order of Bones From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Sun Oct 6 22:49:00 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 01:49:00 -0400 Subject: Souls and Great Weapons References: Message-ID: <3DA1204C.1C1EFE46@earthlink.net> FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: > > So when the Athyra wizard Loraan gets killed ... his soul cannot be claimed > by Blackwand -because-it-is-not-there-. His body, however, is dead; the > wizard can get his soul to the Paths of the Dead and, as souls seem to > 'reconstitute' bodies in the Paths, and as well as being something of an > accomplished necromancer, he can perform the necessary ceremonies and walk > out of the Paths as a member of that most suppressed underclass in all worlds > except for Dragaera, the undead. It occurs to me that Loraan could have been revivified by family/friends/servants, but as a necromancer, he might have desired practical knowledge that required him to become undead. Just a thought. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From scs at di.org Mon Oct 7 12:22:07 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 15:22:07 -0400 Subject: Souls and Great Weapons Message-ID: <20021007192207.GA2804@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> The idea that Morganti weapons have various strengths can lead to some odd (and IMHO wrong) conclusions. In use, a Morganti weapon (which I'm not confusing with a Great Weapon) has one and only one effect -- it destroys the soul of the person cut by it. They come in various strengths, but the strength seems to be irrelevant to the effect. Vlad describes some Morganti weapons as practically screaming 'use me! use me!' I believe this is the strength referred to. Take one in hand, and you've got the urge to use it. I like the theory that Morganti-taken souls go Someplace Else; it jibes better with my own personal interpretation of 'soul.' As for Pathfinder being successfully disguised by embedding it inside a large, ordinary broadsword -- that's certianly consistant with the other things we've seen about Morganti weapons. Putting them in a sheath seems to make their special characteristics almost undetectable. Loraans experience is most easily explained by Morrolan having instructed Blackwand not to take his soul. Vampires, at least Dragaeran ones, have their original souls. -- 'Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity.' -- credited to various people, I heard it from Robert A Heinlein. From mneme at io.com Mon Oct 7 12:57:56 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 14:57:56 -0500 Subject: Souls and Great Weapons In-Reply-To: <20021007192207.GA2804@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20021007192207.GA2804@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <15777.59204.101166.679729@hagbard.io.com> Steve Simmons writes: >Loraans experience is most easily explained by Morrolan having instructed >Blackwand not to take his soul. Vampires, at least Dragaeran ones, have >their original souls. Um...isn't there something about how, to become a wizard, you have to stick your soul in an object (usually, a staff)? I mean, clearly, Morollan now has his soul protected by Blackwand, but might any more "ordinary" wizard be fairly immune to that effect of Great/Morganti weapons simply by being a wizard? -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From mr1 at rcosta.com Mon Oct 7 13:22:25 2002 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 16:22:25 -0400 Subject: Souls and Great Weapons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3DA1B4C1.6232.1A3E514@localhost> Thanks for the giggle. Unfortunately my co-workers now think I have gone over the edge as I can not possibly explain why I think "Blue Sheen of UnDeath" is amusing. M mr1 at rcosta.com On 6 Oct 2002 at 14:18, David Silberstein wrote Date sent: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 14:18:27 -0700 (PDT) From: David Silberstein To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Souls and Great Weapons > Obviously, it is the Blue Sheen Of UnDeath. > > (runs off, whistling off-key chase music) From davids at kithrup.com Tue Oct 8 13:17:12 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 13:17:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Souls and Great Weapons In-Reply-To: <3DA1204C.1C1EFE46@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Oct 2002, Jose Marquez wrote: > >It occurs to me that Loraan could have been revivified by >family/friends/servants, but as a necromancer, he might have desired >practical knowledge that required him to become undead. Just a thought. > Hm. I don't think he personally wanted to become undead, because it appears that the undead have more vulnerabilities [1], and may be weaker in general. In fact, note that Loraan, while still alive, managed to hold his own (for a while, anyway) against Vlad and an expert swordsman & sorcerer (Morrolan), whereas after he became undead, he wasn't doing very well against a severely injured Vlad and 2 Teckla children, with some assistance from a couple of jhereg. [1] Although what was up with that Dark Water business, anyway? Why should it *matter* if plain, ordinary ground water has been exposed to light or not? Although it occurs to me that this may have been yet another thing misunderstood (or miscommunicated) by Vlad - perhaps the groundwater picked up traces of some particular mineral (necrophia?) that was affected by light, and which also had sorcerous and/ or necromantic properties. From davids at kithrup.com Tue Oct 8 13:18:38 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 13:18:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Souls and Great Weapons In-Reply-To: <15777.59204.101166.679729@hagbard.io.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Oct 2002, Joshua Kronengold wrote: >Steve Simmons writes: >>Loraans experience is most easily explained by Morrolan having >>instructed Blackwand not to take his soul. Vampires, at least >>Dragaeran ones, have their original souls. > >Um...isn't there something about how, to become a wizard, you have to >stick your soul in an object (usually, a staff)? I think it says bind your soul *to* an object. Now, that might mean *in* an object, but I doubt it. >I mean, clearly, Morollan now has his soul protected by Blackwand, but >might any more "ordinary" wizard be fairly immune to that effect of >Great/Morganti weapons simply by being a wizard? That's an interesting but unlikely notion. Loraan was killed by a Morganti dagger, and that was the end of him. And if other ordinary wizards were immune to Morganti weapons (or even ordinary weapons), I think Vlad would have found that out by now. The line about knives and cramping of style comes to mind... From cmt17 at cable-lynx.net Tue Oct 8 13:30:16 2002 From: cmt17 at cable-lynx.net (Craig) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 14:30:16 -0600 Subject: Souls and Great Weapons In-Reply-To: References: <15777.59204.101166.679729@hagbard.io.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021008142406.0244a610@pop.cable-lynx.net> >That's an interesting but unlikely notion. Loraan was killed by a >Morganti dagger, and that was the end of him. And if other ordinary >wizards were immune to Morganti weapons (or even ordinary weapons), I >think Vlad would have found that out by now. There is that, but then you have to consider how many wizards has Vlad had to kill before? I don't think there would be that many wizards in the Jhereg, and since it's mainly the Jhereg who get assassinated, the chances of needing to worry about them would be small. I've always been under the impression that morganti weapons literally eat the soul, but as someone earlier posted, maybe they just sever the tie between the soul and body then it might be different. What if the wizard's soul is bound to some other object, say a staff, so that when the connection between soul and body is cut, the soul doesn't depart forever, but it remains tied to the staff. All it would take would be some sufficiently powerful wizard friend/relative/whoever can then reconnect the soul to the now undead body? As for Vlad's knowledge, there's always the fallback that he's an idiot. :) Craig From RuhlenR at missouri.edu Tue Oct 8 13:31:52 2002 From: RuhlenR at missouri.edu (Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student)) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 15:31:52 -0500 Subject: Souls and Great Weapons Message-ID: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E01245453@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> > -----Original Message----- > From: David Silberstein [mailto:davids at kithrup.com] > [1] Although what was up with that Dark Water business, > anyway? Why should it *matter* if plain, ordinary ground > water has been exposed to light or not? Although it occurs This reminds me of the theory that there is no body of water in the entire world that is uncontaminated by synthetic organochlorines which have been produced wide-scale only since WWII. It certainly matters to us if there is such a source of water. As it stands now, we experimenters can't even find a control population of any critter to do experiments to prove that organochlorines are bad things and convince the public that it's in their interests to convince the legislators to pass some stringent regulations even if the it might hurt the oil companies... Sorry, my tirade. Anyway, could the sorcerous pollution be similar? Rachel From mam at theworld.com Tue Oct 8 13:43:49 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 16:43:49 -0400 Subject: Souls and Great Weapons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Oct 2002, David Silberstein wrote: #[1] Although what was up with that Dark Water business, anyway? Why #should it *matter* if plain, ordinary ground water has been exposed to #light or not? It doesn't *matter* in our universe, where there are AFAWK no such things as magic, psychic traces, undead, and so on. IMHO it's perfectly believeable in the Dragaeran universe. If you accept those as part of the story, you have to be willing to accept this at least as a possibility. # Although it occurs to me that this may have been yet #another thing misunderstood (or miscommunicated) by Vlad He is certainly misinformed about plenty of other things. This is very useful for Steve as author; cf. http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/cracks.html#Principles and its subsection http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/cracks.html#premise -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From RuhlenR at missouri.edu Tue Oct 8 13:50:12 2002 From: RuhlenR at missouri.edu (Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student)) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 15:50:12 -0500 Subject: Jhereg-Dragon War #1 Message-ID: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E0CEB77@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> In _Jhereg_, Vlad tells the story about the first Jhereg-Dragon war. Is this covered on the Cracks & Shards page? or another page? I was curious how many inconsistencies have been noted in this one story alone. Here's what I've found: He says it occurred nearly a full cycle before the Interregnum, about 10,000 years, during the Athyran reign which was followed by a long Phoenix reign which was fortunately long enough to give the Dragon house time to rebuild and come up with a strong heir for the Dragon reign. This was definitely not immediately before the Interregnum, when the Phoenix reign was never followed by a Dragon reign. Therefore, it had to be a bit more than a full cycle before the Interregnum, not "nearly" a full cycle. 10,000 years is an awfully short time for a full cycle. The shortest reign is 17*17, or 289 years (that's from his discourse in some later book, don't recall which off the top of my head, where he's talking about how he likes to rub their noses in it that they think the number 17 is so mystical). The longest is 17*17*17, 4913, for an average of 2601. The shortest possible *cycle* is 4913 (17 Houses, 289 years each). An average cycle is 44,217. Plus a long Athyra reign followed by a long Phoenix reign, in addition to the entire cycle, in that 10,000 years. I wonder if a "0" got left out. Cracks & Shards has a good discussion about the bit about the head in a bucket being revivifiable. Anyone want to offer an "explanation" for the 1st two? Vlad prefaces this story with something about Jhereg records not being reliable because anyone with enough money can have information pulled...or inserted. Perhaps history gets so re-written that it's contradictory. I also wonder if Vlad wasn't paying attention to what he was saying and just spouting numbers without thinking. I've never done anything like that myself... From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue Oct 8 13:50:42 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 13:50:42 -0700 Subject: Souls and Great Weapons In-Reply-To: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E01245453@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> References: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E01245453@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: <20021008205042.GA18183@ofb.net> On Tue, Oct 08, 2002 at 03:31:52PM -0500, Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student) wrote: > This reminds me of the theory that there is no body of water in the > entire world that is uncontaminated by synthetic organochlorines which > have been produced wide-scale only since WWII. It certainly matters to > us if there is such a source of water. As it stands now, we > experimenters can't even find a control population of any critter to do > experiments to prove that organochlorines are bad things and convince Eh? You could _make_ pure water, and raise a population in that, compared with a population in normal water. -xx- Damien X-) From RuhlenR at missouri.edu Tue Oct 8 13:54:55 2002 From: RuhlenR at missouri.edu (Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student)) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 15:54:55 -0500 Subject: Souls and Great Weapons Message-ID: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E01245455@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> > -----Original Message----- > From: Damien Sullivan [mailto:phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu] > Eh? You could _make_ pure water, and raise a population in > that, compared with a population in normal water. Pure water costs $50 for 4 liters. :( And how are you going to keep their food from being contaminated? Bad enough we have to use charcoal-filtered stuff because our water pipes are all plastic. This is just for a bunch of mice. I drink my water straight from the plastic bottle. Rachel From davids at kithrup.com Tue Oct 8 14:18:37 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 14:18:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Souls and Great Weapons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Oct 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Tue, 8 Oct 2002, David Silberstein wrote: > >#[1] Although what was up with that Dark Water business, anyway? Why >#should it *matter* if plain, ordinary ground water has been exposed to >#light or not? > >It doesn't *matter* in our universe, where there are AFAWK no such >things as magic, psychic traces, undead, and so on. IMHO it's perfectly >believeable in the Dragaeran universe. If you accept those as part of >the story, you have to be willing to accept this at least as a >possibility. Well.... Let me expand on my objection a bit: Every other instance of magical activity appears to be tied to either the actual practitioner, or to some artifact that some practitioner has imbued with some sort of magical energy, or to something that is magical because it derives >from something else magical. Vlad even admits that most of the paraphernalia for witchcraft is symbolic and can be dispensed with. Morganti & Great weapons were deliberately crafted to be magical. The blood of a goddess has magical properties that derive from the original goddess. And so on But the water wasn't modified deliberately, as far as we are told. It's just water, from the ground, that hasn't been exposed to light, and yet has some inherent nature that causes it to affect the undead. That's very unusual, I think, in this milieu. The only other thing(s) that is specifically magical from its inherent nature is trellanstone (& necrophia), and trellanstone is incredibly rare (I don't remember if the same applies to necrophia, which is why I suggested that it might be in the water). Although I wonder now if perhaps there *is* something odd going on with the water in the Dragaeran Empire. I suddenly recall the River out of Faerie in Fenario, which was magical for no explained reason. ># Although it occurs to me that this may have been yet >#another thing misunderstood (or miscommunicated) by Vlad > >He is certainly misinformed about plenty of other things. Yup. :-) From feaelin at kemenel.org Tue Oct 8 14:43:05 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 16:43:05 -0500 Subject: Dark Water (was: Souls and Great Weapons) Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: David Silberstein [mailto:davids at kithrup.com] > Sent: Tuesday, 2002 October 08 16:19 > To: Dragaera > Subject: Re: Souls and Great Weapons > > > On Tue, 8 Oct 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote: > > >On Tue, 8 Oct 2002, David Silberstein wrote: > > > >#[1] Although what was up with that Dark Water business, > anyway? Why > >#should it *matter* if plain, ordinary ground water has been > exposed to > >#light or not? > > > >It doesn't *matter* in our universe, where there are AFAWK no such > >things as magic, psychic traces, undead, and so on. IMHO > it's perfectly > >believeable in the Dragaeran universe. If you accept those > as part of > >the story, you have to be willing to accept this at least as a > >possibility. > But the water wasn't modified deliberately, as far as we are told. > It's just water, from the ground, that hasn't been exposed to Actually, that's not strictly true. There was a discussion between Vlad and Savn about places of power, presumably where prior magics had been performed, they mention that the place that Loraan did his necromatic work would probably be one of those places. One could assume that the water flowing through caves where "necromancy" has been performed extensively, taints the water, and for some reason exposure to "light" (light confuses the issue, given the "overcast") mitigates the effect. Or the water isn't different at all. Undead simply have an aversion to water contained (which makes me want to go offer Kiera a glass of water!). Hmm. Was the water flowing? I can't remember. Or was it in stagnant pools? That could be the critical difference, and actually, I've read something besides a Vlad novel where stagnant water was significant with undead/magic (I no longer recall what, though). Iain From davids at kithrup.com Tue Oct 8 15:09:00 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 15:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dark Water (was: Souls and Great Weapons) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Oct 2002, Davis, Iain E. wrote: >On Tue, 8 Oct 2002, David Silberstein wrote: > >> But the water wasn't modified deliberately, as far as we are told. >> It's just water, from the ground, that hasn't been exposed to >Actually, that's not strictly true. There was a discussion between Vlad >and Savn about places of power, presumably where prior magics had been >performed, they mention that the place that Loraan did his necromatic >work would probably be one of those places. One could assume that the >water flowing through caves where "necromancy" has been performed >extensively, taints the water, and for some reason exposure to "light" >(light confuses the issue, given the "overcast") mitigates the effect. Good point; I had forgotten about that. Although Vlad doesn't say that the Dark Water was affected by the prior necromancy. >Hmm. Was the water flowing? I can't remember. Or was it in stagnant >pools? That could be the critical difference, and actually, I've read >something besides a Vlad novel where stagnant water was significant with >undead/magic (I no longer recall what, though). Yes; that's part of Athyra. I don't have the exact quote to hand, but it was something along the lines of actively flowing Dark Water would enhance the power of the undead, while "stagnant and contained" Dark Water would inhibit it. At the end, Polyi (Savn's sister) has some Dark Water "contained" in a lamp, which does seem to affect Loraan for the worse (he complains about it out loud to the Jhereg assassin). Loraan then kicks the lamp & breaks it, which seems to cause the water to flow enough to strengthen him again. I wonder if there might be some electrical analog involved where something static is an insulator, and moving is a conductor. Eh, not very likely, I guess. From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Oct 8 15:25:13 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 18:25:13 -0400 Subject: Jhereg-Dragon War #1 Message-ID: <51CC6B78.7C756F39.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated 10/8/2002 3:50:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student)" writes: > Here's what I've found: > He says it occurred nearly a full cycle before the > Interregnum, about 10,000 years, [...] > 10,000 years is an awfully short time for a full cycle. >?The shortest reign is 17*17, or 289 years [...] ?The > longest is 17*17*17, 4913, for an average of 2601. ?The > shortest possible *cycle* is 4913 (17 Houses, 289 years > each). ?An average cycle is 44,217. The average isn't neccessarily the median. And Vlad's just giving a very rough estimate, so getting within an order of magnitude is good enough. Note that in the passage where he discusses the min/max reigns, he's way off for the max. --KG From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Oct 8 15:28:25 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 18:28:25 -0400 Subject: Jhereg-Dragon War #1 In-Reply-To: <51CC6B78.7C756F39.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <42B7611F-DB0D-11D6-9889-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Tuesday, October 8, 2002, at 06:25 PM, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/8/2002 3:50:12 PM Eastern Standard > Time, "Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student)" > writes: > >> Here's what I've found: >> He says it occurred nearly a full cycle before the >> Interregnum, about 10,000 years, > [...] >> 10,000 years is an awfully short time for a full cycle. >> ?The shortest reign is 17*17, or 289 years [...] ?The >> longest is 17*17*17, 4913, for an average of 2601. ?The >> shortest possible *cycle* is 4913 (17 Houses, 289 years >> each). ?An average cycle is 44,217. > > The average isn't neccessarily the median. And Vlad's just > giving a very rough estimate, so getting within an order of > magnitude is good enough. Note that in the passage where he > discusses the min/max reigns, he's way off for the max. > > --KG Also remember that Steve has said many times Vlad doesn't always know whaat he is talking about so I would take Vlad's calculations with a grain of salt. ---- "Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself (I am large, I contain multitudes)"--Walt Whitman From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Oct 8 15:32:15 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 15:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jhereg-Dragon War #1 Message-ID: <200210082231.g98MVdC29509@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > The average isn't neccessarily the median. And Vlad's just > giving a very rough estimate, so getting within an order of > magnitude is good enough. Note that in the passage where he > discusses the min/max reigns, he's way off for the max. That makes sense. He's an assasin more than a Jhereg boss. He doesn't do bookkeeping... Wonder if they've got Math 101 on Dragaera... "So, Vlad... You've got two brothels, and Mellar destroys one of them... How many you got left?" Being pulled back to work... forcibly, Chris From den at monger.net Tue Oct 8 16:45:58 2002 From: den at monger.net (Dennis Higbee) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 16:45:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jhereg-Dragon War #1 In-Reply-To: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E0CEB77@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Oct 2002, Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student) wrote: > In _Jhereg_, Vlad tells the story about the first Jhereg-Dragon war. Is > this covered on the Cracks & Shards page? or another page? I was > curious how many inconsistencies have been noted in this one story > alone. > > Here's what I've found: > He says it occurred nearly a full cycle before the Interregnum, about > 10,000 years, during the Athyran reign which was followed by a long > Phoenix reign which was fortunately long enough to give the Dragon house > time to rebuild and come up with a strong heir for the Dragon reign. > This was definitely not immediately before the Interregnum, when the > Phoenix reign was never followed by a Dragon reign. Therefore, it had > to be a bit more than a full cycle before the Interregnum, not "nearly" > a full cycle. > > 10,000 years is an awfully short time for a full cycle. The shortest > reign is 17*17, or 289 years (that's from his discourse in some later > book, don't recall which off the top of my head, where he's talking > about how he likes to rub their noses in it that they think the number > 17 is so mystical). The longest is 17*17*17, 4913, for an average of > 2601. The shortest possible *cycle* is 4913 (17 Houses, 289 years > each). An average cycle is 44,217. Plus a long Athyra reign followed > by a long Phoenix reign, in addition to the entire cycle, in that 10,000 > years. I wonder if a "0" got left out. That's not at issue. We know the rough age of the Empire, which is 200,000 years, and the number of cycles, which is 17. Hence, the average cycle is a shade under 12,000 years give or take. Vlad's "about ten thousand" looks much more reasonable, then. The Dragon- Jhereg War was near the beginning of the Sixteenth Athyra reign, so it's one full cycle plus two reigns, the Interregnum, and another Phoenix reign (Zerika's). So, while 10,000 years does seem a bit short, especially given the "long Athyra and even longer Phoenix" reigns, it probably wasn't more than about 15,000 years. -Dennis From zaphod at charter.net Tue Oct 8 17:59:51 2002 From: zaphod at charter.net (Greg Schwartz) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 20:59:51 -0400 Subject: Souls and Great Weapons (warning, Issola spoilers) References: Message-ID: <001c01c26f2f$2cc74c80$6501a8c0@zaphod> The matter of Loraan's soul surviving Blackwand is an interesting question. It probably is a clue that points towards some strange things about great weapons as a whole. The great weapons we are familiar with are being used against the Jenoine in the interests of the Lords of Judgement. It stands to reason that if something odd happens, or doesn't happen involving one of these powerful artifacts, it is in the best interests of the gods against the Jenoine, particularly if the odd thing involves a soul. Could they have decided not to destroy Loraan? In the second conflict with Loraan, who actually *did* kill Reigns? It could have been Loraan, or it could have been someone manipulating Vlad into killing him again. Which side of the gods/Jenoine conflict wanted Vlad to have a great weapon? Who exactly did choose to reincarnate his soul into an easterner? The answers to these questions could be either the gods, or the Jenoine. I can' t decide if I'm being a good Yendi by looking for all the potential twisted plots, or a bad Yendi in not figuring them out. -Greg Schwartz From cmt17 at cable-lynx.net Tue Oct 8 18:06:13 2002 From: cmt17 at cable-lynx.net (Craig) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 19:06:13 -0600 Subject: Souls and Great Weapons (warning, Issola spoilers) In-Reply-To: <001c01c26f2f$2cc74c80$6501a8c0@zaphod> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021008190144.0244aff0@pop.cable-lynx.net> >The matter of Loraan's soul surviving Blackwand is an interesting question. >It probably is a clue that points towards some strange things about great >weapons as a whole. Another thought is that Morrolan chose not to destroy Loraan, and instructed Blackwand not to take his soul. They just killed him, the family dumped him over Deathsgate and then he crawled out as an undead instead of going to the Halls of Judgement. Now as to why Morrolan wouldn't destroy him...it could be that it's a wizardly courtesy. Or he knew that he'd be making many Athyra enemies by killing outside his own house in a permanent way. It seems that houses are allowed to do what they wish internally, but they have to be a bit more careful when attacking other houses, especially with morganti weapons. Craig From andrew at networkharmoni.com.au Tue Oct 8 18:24:21 2002 From: andrew at networkharmoni.com.au (Andrew Bailey) Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 09:24:21 +0800 Subject: Souls and Great Weapons (warning, Issola spoilers) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021008190144.0244aff0@pop.cable-lynx.net> Message-ID: <3DA38545.7010403@networkharmoni.com.au> Craig wrote: > > Another thought is that Morrolan chose not to destroy Loraan, and > instructed Blackwand not to take his soul. They just killed him, the > family dumped him over Deathsgate and then he crawled out as an undead > instead of going to the Halls of Judgement. > The really interesting thing is of course the fact he is undead. ***********Mild Spoilers for Issola**************************** According to Sethra in Issola, being Undead means that the Gods have further uses for you in this life. I am not sure someone can become undead without the Gods allowing it[1]. So that raises the question "What was Loraan still to do in his current life?" Personally I think Verra sent him back to annoy Vlad[2]:) Andrew. [1] Caveat: I don't include Demons in this statement. [2] Not that Verra necessarily wants to annoy Vlad, its just that Vlad expects her to , so she obliges. Also I think there may be other motives, like Verra trying to create experiences in Vlads life that alter his outlook. From unitcancellation at hotmail.com Tue Oct 8 18:31:35 2002 From: unitcancellation at hotmail.com (Alex Nixon) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 22:31:35 -0300 Subject: Souls and Great Weapons (warning, Issola spoilers) Message-ID: Or perhaps another god had use for him and now Vlad's pissed that deity off. Or perhaps Loraan beat the system. Or perhaps Loraan won undeath off of Trout in a game of Hold 'Em. Or perhaps we all should start reading each others' posts more closely. We're repeating almost every[1] post. ;) Alex [1] That doesn't include Andrew's. ----Original Message Follows---- From: Andrew Bailey Personally I think Verra sent him back to annoy Vlad[2]:) Andrew. [1] Caveat: I don't include Demons in this statement. [2] Not that Verra necessarily wants to annoy Vlad, its just that Vlad expects her to , so she obliges. Also I think there may be other motives, like Verra trying to create experiences in Vlads life that alter his outlook. What, me worry? I'm a Yankees fan! All Yankee fans would go to heaven... ...but we're already there! _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From mam at theworld.com Wed Oct 9 10:01:11 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 13:01:11 -0400 Subject: Souls and Great Weapons (warning, Issola spoilers) In-Reply-To: <001c01c26f2f$2cc74c80$6501a8c0@zaphod> Message-ID: #In the second conflict with Loraan, who actually *did* kill Reigns? It could Reins -- no 'g' -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Oct 9 20:50:52 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 22:50:52 -0500 Subject: Westeros mailing list Message-ID: <20021010035052.GG15455@infodancer.org> I've been hankering for a reread of _A Song of Ice and Fire_ (GRRM's medieval fantasy series, begun to _A Game of Thrones_). I've also been hankering for some serious analysis of that series, since I haven't had time to do any in-depth thinking about it since the latest book. I know a lot of you have read the series, and I presume some of you are interested in discussing it. Therefore, I have created a mailing list. After posting it here and a couple other places, I'll give it a couple days to stabilize and then start a reread >from scratch with points for discussion posted. I'll probably start to compile a FAQ from the resulting discussions. To subscribe, email westeros-subscribe at lists.infodancer.org. For the digest, email westeros-digest-subscribe at lists.infodancer.org. I'd like to thank David Dyer-Bennett for letting me post the announcement here, too. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Oct 11 16:24:37 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 19:24:37 -0400 Subject: Weblog comments Message-ID: <11857376.7D940A5F.00048EA6@aol.com> >From the Author's weblog: http://www.dreamcafe.com/weblog.cgi > Thu Oct 10th, 2002 4:03 PM > Once I finish with this cold, I'm going to put a bit more > effort into the murder mystery, because it's starting to > grab me a bit. Is this a non-Dragaera novel you're working on or what? > The Vlad novel is still percolating in my head, so I'll > just let it do that for a while longer. Want to tease us with the title or where it fits in the timeline? > Fri Oct 11th, 2002 3:11 PM > I've come to the conclusion that the real trick to being > successful in any field is to surround yourself with really > talented people who can not only teach you stuff, but make > you look good. Of course, other than stumbling into them > by blind luck, as I did, I have no idea how to accomplish > this. I wouldn't call it blind luck; part of the job description for folks like Patrick and Teresa is to wander around trying to stumble into folks like you. > But _Paths_ will be bracketed by work from Emma Bull and > Teresa; so I'm feeling like, even if my stuff sucks, it > ought to be worth reading just for the preface and > afterword. BTW, we're still wondering who the cover artist is... --KG From davids at kithrup.com Fri Oct 11 16:59:35 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:59:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Weblog comments In-Reply-To: <11857376.7D940A5F.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Oct 2002 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >>From the Author's weblog: http://www.dreamcafe.com/weblog.cgi > >> Fri Oct 11th, 2002 3:11 PM Just thought I'd point out that today is a year and a day since the web log was first started. I thought that was amusing. >> But _Paths_ will be bracketed by work from Emma Bull and >> Teresa; so I'm feeling like, even if my stuff sucks, it >> ought to be worth reading just for the preface and >> afterword. > >BTW, we're still wondering who the cover artist is... > And *I* am hoping that someone (does PNH lurk here? Can someone who lurks here ping PNH?) will put up sample chapters, so we can, y'know, read stuff. And hopefully be intrigued & want to read more. [The above is grammatically painfully wrong, and I used Steve's bete noir of "hopefully", too. Some days it just doesn't pay to try and craft even the simplest of sentences. Perhaps I need a better incentive: "Now then, Davdi of Silverrock, you *will* write a clear sentence in the subjunctive future perfect, or you shall be stabbed in the eye with this needle-sharp Morganti dagger."] From nytemuse at auros.org Fri Oct 11 18:02:30 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 18:02:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Weblog comments In-Reply-To: <11857376.7D940A5F.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: Speaking of weblog comments, I have a q for SKZB... >From the Author's weblog: http://www.dreamcafe.com/weblog.cgi > Thu Oct 10th, 2002 4:03 PM > > I've got a comention in San Jose in a week; after that, I won't have to > leave home for some time, and can get serious about work. I'm looking > forward to that. Was this supposed to be talking about San Diego? Just curious, b/c I grew up in SJ so I generally know what's going on down there most of the time, and the only Brust appearances I was aware of in a week's time was at Conjecture in San Diego, CA. (Of course, I'm also assuming here that "comention" is supposed to read "convention", which could also be wrong) ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Oct 11 18:56:10 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 21:56:10 -0400 Subject: More weblog Message-ID: I have decided to dissect Steve's weblog. Bear with me, I'm feeling goofy tonight (Capre diem, this is all in good fun) >>>Just received the "About the Author" for _Paths of the Dead_ written by Teresa Neilsen Hayden. I am *so* psyched! You mean you didn't write it yourself? Slacker! >>>I've come to the conclusion that the real trick to being successful in any field is to surround yourself with really talented people who can not only teach you stuff, but make you look good. Of course, other than stumbling into them by blind luck, as I did, I have no idea how to accomplish this. I hear bribery and/or blackmail works wonders in this regard >>>But _Paths_ will be bracketed by work from Emma Bull and Teresa; so I'm feeling like, even if my stuff sucks, it ought to be worth reading just for the preface and afterword. So it will be like an Oreo cookie? With the good stuff I'll have to suck of the middle or lick off obscenely? >>>Tee hee. Laugh while you can, Monkey Boy Heh heh :) --- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds; and the pessimist fears this is true." -- James Branch Cabell From mam at theworld.com Sat Oct 12 12:17:55 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 15:17:55 -0400 Subject: More weblog In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I had the nagging feeling there was something I was supposed to be thinking about. Oh, yeah. Psychic communication. In Latin. #(Capre diem, this is all in good fun) (Nota bene, this is all in good fun.) Capre: vocative singular of "caper", (he-)goat. Translation: "Goat! O goat! Yo, goat!" Diem: accusative singular of "dies", day. Translation: "day", generally as object of the verb. "Goat! ... day." Huh? Obvious re-interpretation: A typo for "carpe diem", "seize the day". Clear enough, but what's it doing here? -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sat Oct 12 12:55:31 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 12:55:31 -0700 Subject: Weblog comments In-Reply-To: References: <11857376.7D940A5F.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021012125325.00aa90f0@localhost> At 06:02 PM 10/11/2002 -0700, Nytemuse wrote: >Speaking of weblog comments, I have a q for SKZB... > > >From the Author's weblog: http://www.dreamcafe.com/weblog.cgi > > > Thu Oct 10th, 2002 4:03 PM > > > > I've got a comention in San Jose in a week; after that, I won't have to > > leave home for some time, and can get serious about work. I'm looking > > forward to that. > >Was this supposed to be talking about San Diego? Just curious, b/c I grew >up in SJ so I generally know what's going on down there most of the time, >and the only Brust appearances I was aware of in a week's time was at >Conjecture in San Diego, CA. >(Of course, I'm also assuming here that "comention" is supposed to read >"convention", which could also be wrong) Uh...it is indeed, Conjecture. And it is in San Jose, for those values of San Jose that are equal to San Diego. From rone at ennui.org Sat Oct 12 13:21:27 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 13:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Weblog comments In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021012125325.00aa90f0@localhost> Message-ID: <20021012202127.C9CE026E27@boredom.ennui.org> Steven Brust writes: Uh...it is indeed, Conjecture. And it is in San Jose, for those values of San Jose that are equal to San Diego. More's the pity... had it been in San Jose, i wouldn't be looking at an 8hr drive (if anyone in the area is interested, there's space in my car). rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From zizban at adelphia.net Sat Oct 12 17:08:09 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 20:08:09 -0400 Subject: More weblog In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Saturday, October 12, 2002, at 03:17 PM, Mark A Mandel wrote: > I had the nagging feeling there was something I was supposed to be > thinking about. Oh, yeah. Psychic communication. In Latin. > > #(Capre diem, this is all in good fun) > > (Nota bene, this is all in good fun.) > > Capre: vocative singular of "caper", (he-)goat. Translation: "Goat! O > goat! Yo, goat!" > > Diem: accusative singular of "dies", day. Translation: "day", generally > as object of the verb. > > "Goat! ... day." Huh? > > Obvious re-interpretation: A typo for "carpe diem", "seize the day". > Clear enough, but what's it doing here? > Huh, things you learn. How do you say, "I came, I saw, slept"? --- "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein From davids at kithrup.com Mon Oct 14 13:55:33 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 13:55:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff Message-ID: Hey Steve, - What were Morrolan's parent's names? - What is Noish-pa's real full name? - What is Vlad's father's name? - Have we seen some woman who is actually Vlad's mother? - Have we at least seen the *name* of some woman who is actually Vlad's mother? - Does a yendi differ from a snake in any meaningful way (besides the name)? - Will "Hawk" be about Daymar, or will it be about Paarfi, or will it be *by* Paarfi about Vlad? Thanks for any answers. I seem to be suffering from the curiosity. From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Mon Oct 14 17:59:24 2002 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 17:59:24 -0700 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff Message-ID: <200210141759.AA784466488@amish2000.com> >Hey Steve, > > - What were Morrolan's parent's names? I'm not Steve but I _am_ bored, so I give you my theory: Rollandar e'Drien was Morrolan's pop. Mother's name was never given, but she's the one who kicked Rollandar's ass at some battle. Apparently their troops found great fun in musing upon their leisure activities. This may explain why Morrolan is the ... charming badass mofo that he is. > - What is Noish-pa's real full name? I'd say something snarky but I am unable to be snarky about Noish- pa who is amazingly wonderful. > - What is Vlad's father's name? "Sam," I think it was? > - Does a yendi differ from a snake in any meaningful way (besides the >name)? I wish that yendi had cobra-hoods, but they DON'T just because Steve wants to inconvenience me and make my fanart invalid. *sulk* > - Will "Hawk" be about Daymar, or will it be about Paarfi, or will it >be *by* Paarfi about Vlad? If it's about Daymar I'm buying FIFTY COPIES. Of hardcover AND of soft. Daymar makes me want to cuddle him. ? MJ, making an Arshesu Nei costume ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ ~ A Pirate Looks At Twenty ~ http://erythros.livejournal.com/ ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Mon Oct 14 19:48:43 2002 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 19:48:43 -0700 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff Message-ID: <200210141948.AA2565079316@amish2000.com> Julie Alipaz se scripsit: >i not teve either, Well, relatively few people _are_, when you stop to think about it. >>Rollandar e'Drien was Morrolan's pop. Mother's name was never >>given, but she's the one who kicked Rollandar's ass at some battle. >>Apparently their troops found great fun in musing upon their >>leisure activities. This may explain why Morrolan is the ... > >where was this ? which book ? Ehrm. It's never explicitly stated, but when Morrolan tells Aliera who he is in the Paths of the Dead (TAL, pg. something I forget), she said something along the lines of, "Yes, that's the right sort of name." The only one we've seen whose name is close to "Morrolan" is "Rollandar," and there are lots of little clues, such as Castle Black having the wounded dragon painting that Kathana gave to Lord Rollandar. I admit that's kind of specious -- Morrolan could've bought it from someone else -- but it gels for me. Besides, it amuses me to think of Morrolan seething in jealousy that his brother Molric got to be Adron's CHAINMAN, and he never even got to MEET Adron. >> >>> - What is Vlad's father's name? >> >>"Sam," I think it was? > >this is all in the brokedown palace, you meet both of his parents ... Really? I'd thought we only saw Cawti's mother in BP... ? MJ, eating chocolate ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ ~ A Pirate Looks At Twenty ~ http://erythros.livejournal.com/ ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ From mam at theworld.com Mon Oct 14 18:04:06 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:04:06 -0400 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff In-Reply-To: <200210141759.AA784466488@amish2000.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, M J wrote: #Rollandar e'Drien was Morrolan's pop. Mother's name was never Wasn't it Rollndar? (AFB: away from books.) #> - What is Noish-pa's real full name? # #I'd say something snarky but I am unable to be snarky about Noish- #pa who is amazingly wonderful. We do know, pretty surely, that his patronymic is "Taltos", as Kelly (iirc) calls him "Taltos" and Sethra calls him "Master Taltos". -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mam at theworld.com Mon Oct 14 18:05:32 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:05:32 -0400 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, David Silberstein wrote: # - Does a yendi differ from a snake in any meaningful way (besides the #name)? Does a garter snake differ from a cobra in any meaningful way? -- That is, a yendi may be a particular species (or group of species) of snake... among other possibilities. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From davids at kithrup.com Mon Oct 14 18:15:58 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 18:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff In-Reply-To: <200210141948.AA2565079316@amish2000.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, M J wrote: >>>Rollandar e'Drien was Morrolan's pop. Mother's name was never >>>given, but she's the one who kicked Rollandar's ass at some >>>battle. >>>Apparently their troops found great fun in musing upon their >>>leisure activities. This may explain why Morrolan is the ... >>where was this ? which book ? > >Ehrm. It's never explicitly stated, but when Morrolan tells Aliera >who he is in the Paths of the Dead (TAL, pg. something I forget), >she said something along the lines of, "Yes, that's the right sort >of name." The only one we've seen whose name is close to >"Morrolan" is "Rollandar," and there are lots of little clues, such >as Castle Black having the wounded dragon painting that Kathana >gave to Lord Rollandar. I admit that's kind of specious -- >Morrolan could've bought it from someone else -- but it gels for >me. Morrolan's dragon painting was by the Necromancer, wasn't it? See also: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=9hu8jr$4js at gap.cco.caltech.edu I take your point about Morrolan's name & Rollondar, but I wanted Steve to confirm it (or provide a correction), and tell us what Adron's sister's name was. >Besides, it amuses me to think of Morrolan seething in jealousy >that his brother Molric got to be Adron's CHAINMAN, and he never >even got to MEET Adron. Is it stated that Molric is Rollondar's son? I was looking for that, but again, grepping dead trees is difficult. (DDB? Sorry to impose on you yet again, but.... ) I did find the line that says that Molric "would never meet his brother", but it is not said that his brother was definitely Morrolan. >>this is all in the brokedown palace, you meet both of his parents > >... Really? I'd thought we only saw Cawti's mother in BP... *And* her father. She's the bastard of a royal revolutionary; it kinda makes sense that she would turn out to be noble (well, a Jhereg title at any rate) and yet also a kicker-over of applecarts. :-) Something else I've been wondering is whether Dragons name their kids according to the father's name or by the dominant lineage (although it may be that the father's lineage is always the dominant one, I dunno). So theoretically, if Morrolan (for example) marries someone of the e'Terics line, and they have a child who takes after the mother, s/he might be named [something] e'Terics rather than [something] e'Drien. It would match up with the egalitarian character of Dragons, and would also seem to imply that the ability to do genescanning goes back to the founding of the Empire and the first Dragon lineages. From davids at kithrup.com Mon Oct 14 18:30:24 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 18:30:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, David Silberstein wrote: > ># - Does a yendi differ from a snake in any meaningful way (besides the >#name)? > >Does a garter snake differ from a cobra in any meaningful way? -- That >is, a yendi may be a particular species (or group of species) of >snake... among other possibilities. I was wondering if yendi had any special characteristics, such as human-level intelligence or psychic powers (like jhereg), or physical features not usually associated with snakes (like the wings of a tiassa) or behaviours not usually snakelike (like norska being bunny rabbits, but hey! they're carnivorous! And they eat dragons, even!)... Little things like that. That's what I'm wondering about. If for all practical purposes, they are reptiles with long, limbless, slithering bodies and a poisonous bite, and that's *all*, then yeah, I guess they're just snakes by another name (or a type of snake). From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Mon Oct 14 21:47:55 2002 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:47:55 -0700 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff Message-ID: <200210142147.AA118948212@amish2000.com> Dr. Whom, bless 'em, wrote: >On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, M J wrote: > >#Rollandar e'Drien was Morrolan's pop. Mother's name was never > >Wasn't it Rollndar? (AFB: away from books.) ARRRRRGH GRAG OH CURSE MY STUBBORN FINGERS... Yes. Yes it is. That "Morroln"/"Rollndar" throws the HELL out of me. This is all Morrolan's fault. I now declare his name to be Morrolon. Jerk. >#> - What is Noish-pa's real full name? ># >#I'd say something snarky but I am unable to be snarky about Noish- >#pa who is amazingly wonderful. > >We do know, pretty surely, that his patronymic is "Taltos", as Kelly >(iirc) calls him "Taltos" and Sethra calls him "Master Taltos". Well, yes. But his given name is PROBABLY NOT "Edward" or "Sal." (Pity. "Sal Taltos." Has a ring to it.") ? MJ, deeply humbled by her inability to spell in Dragon. From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Mon Oct 14 21:57:35 2002 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:57:35 -0700 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff Message-ID: <200210142157.AA670958106@amish2000.com> David Silberstein wrote, because he felt like it: >On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, M J wrote: > >>>>Rollandar e'Drien was Morrolan's pop. Mother's name was never >>>>given, but she's the one who kicked Rollandar's ass at some >>>>battle. >>>>Apparently their troops found great fun in musing upon their >>>>leisure activities. This may explain why Morrolan is the ... > >>>where was this ? which book ? >> >>Ehrm. It's never explicitly stated, but when Morrolan tells Aliera >>who he is in the Paths of the Dead (TAL, pg. something I forget), >>she said something along the lines of, "Yes, that's the right sort >>of name." The only one we've seen whose name is close to >>"Morrolan" is "Rollandar," and there are lots of little clues, such >>as Castle Black having the wounded dragon painting that Kathana >>gave to Lord Rollandar. I admit that's kind of specious -- >>Morrolan could've bought it from someone else -- but it gels for >>me. > >Morrolan's dragon painting was by the Necromancer, wasn't it? There's more than one. There's one by the Necromancer, and there's at least one by "Katana e'Mar'Chala [sic]", so Mawdyearized by Vlad, because darn it if someone can mistake "Khaavren" for "Khaav'n", then Vlad can hear "Kathana e'Marish'Chala" and spell it "Katana e'Mar'Chala" -- Where was I? Right. Morrolan has a WHOLE SLEW of paintings about dragons, and the description of one of them makes me think that it's the painting about which the whole Kathana-foofooraw got started, and which she presented to Lord Rollondar. (Note "o". Yay.) >I take your point about Morrolan's name & Rollondar, but I wanted >Steve to confirm it (or provide a correction), and tell us what >Adron's sister's name was. Hmm. We ought to devise a foolproof way to make Mister Brust respond to our guesses IMMEDIATELY. Perhaps he can be trolled into it. => BRUSTBAIT: "Roger Zelazny's ghost sez Aliera's brother's name is Molric." Ha ha! That'll get him. >>Besides, it amuses me to think of Morrolan seething in jealousy >>that his brother Molric got to be Adron's CHAINMAN, and he never >>even got to MEET Adron. > >Is it stated that Molric is Rollondar's son? I was looking for that, >but again, grepping dead trees is difficult. Ayup. Rollondar sez at one point in FHYA that "[my] eldest son is the Heir's chainman". ... Okay, fine, Adron could've had two chainmen, but when we only see one chainman and his name is Molric e'Drien, I think that's as good as ... well, it's as proofy as we're going to get bar an ex cathedra statement from Brust-sensei. >(DDB? Sorry to impose on you yet again, but.... ) > >I did find the line that says that Molric "would never meet his >brother", but it is not said that his brother was definitely Morrolan. ... True. I was about to say that "Well, gosh, Morrolan could've looked him up while they were in the Paths of the Dead," but then remembered that poor Molric has gone the way of the chaoticnessish. >>>this is all in the brokedown palace, you meet both of his parents >> >>... Really? I'd thought we only saw Cawti's mother in BP... > >*And* her father. Yesh. I missed it. I am sorry and will write out a few lines on the list chalkboard. *grin* >Something else I've been wondering is whether Dragons name their kids >according to the father's name or by the dominant lineage (although it >may be that the father's lineage is always the dominant one, I dunno). Doesn't square with Khaavren's assertion that daughters take after mothers and that sons take after their fathers, does it? So, then, are sons named for their father's line, and then daughters are named for their mothe -- NO, BECAUSE OF ALIERA E'KIERON. Rats. MJ, not as clever as she'd thought. From andrew at networkharmoni.com.au Mon Oct 14 19:32:46 2002 From: andrew at networkharmoni.com.au (Andrew Bailey) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:32:46 +0800 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff References: <200210142157.AA670958106@amish2000.com> Message-ID: <3DAB7E4E.3080800@networkharmoni.com.au> M J wrote: > Ayup. Rollondar sez at one point in FHYA that "[my] eldest son is > the Heir's chainman". ... Okay, fine, Adron could've had two > chainmen, but when we only see one chainman and his name is Molric > e'Drien, I think that's as good as ... well, it's as proofy as > we're going to get bar an ex cathedra statement from Brust-sensei. > Also in FYA , as Molric dies he is happy that his father won. Thats seems to me to make it pretty clear that his father is the Warlord, which is of course Rollondar. On names and lineages, it seems that when someone signs something they put down their Lineage block, I wonder what the lineage block of Aliera e'Kieron looks like? Oh and I am firmly of the belief that Dragonlords basically choose their second name, like the ones calling themselves e'Barrit. Of course I expect there is a certain ammount of politeness or courtesy involved[1] :) Andrew. [1] see the conversation between Vlad and Lady Teldra on the nature of politeness in Issola. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Oct 14 19:56:04 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 19:56:04 -0700 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021014195405.00a95510@localhost> At 01:55 PM 10/14/2002 -0700, David Silberstein wrote: > > - Does a yendi differ from a snake in any meaningful way (besides the >name)? That's rather like asking if a cocker-spaniel differs from a dog. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Oct 14 19:57:10 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 19:57:10 -0700 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff In-Reply-To: <200210141759.AA784466488@amish2000.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021014195645.032900b0@localhost> At 05:59 PM 10/14/2002 -0700, M J wrote: > > > - Will "Hawk" be about Daymar, or will it be about Paarfi, or >will it > >be *by* Paarfi about Vlad? > >If it's about Daymar I'm buying FIFTY COPIES. Of hardcover AND of >soft. Daymar makes me want to cuddle him. Someone really needs to pass this on to you-know-who. From davids at kithrup.com Mon Oct 14 21:48:37 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:48:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021014195405.00a95510@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, Steven Brust wrote: >At 01:55 PM 10/14/2002 -0700, David Silberstein wrote: >> >> - Does a yendi differ from a snake in any meaningful way? > >That's rather like asking if a cocker-spaniel differs from a dog. > So you're saying that the yendi is the small, cute, bouncy, tail-wagging floppy-eared fluffywuffy member of the snake family? From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Tue Oct 15 00:47:51 2002 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 00:47:51 -0700 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff Message-ID: <200210150047.AA3277192@amish2000.com> Someone, probably cool, wrote: >At 05:59 PM 10/14/2002 -0700, M J wrote: >> >> > - Will "Hawk" be about Daymar, or will it be about Paarfi, or >>will it >> >be *by* Paarfi about Vlad? >> >>If it's about Daymar I'm buying FIFTY COPIES. Of hardcover AND of >>soft. Daymar makes me want to cuddle him. > >Someone really needs to pass this on to you-know-who. REALLY? Do you think Daymar would LET me cuddle him?! MJ, starry-eyed, possibly snarky ? From andrew at networkharmoni.com.au Mon Oct 14 21:54:04 2002 From: andrew at networkharmoni.com.au (Andrew Bailey) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 12:54:04 +0800 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff References: Message-ID: <3DAB9F6C.30207@networkharmoni.com.au> David Silberstein wrote: > On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, Steven Brust wrote: > > >>At 01:55 PM 10/14/2002 -0700, David Silberstein wrote: >> >>> - Does a yendi differ from a snake in any meaningful way? >> >>That's rather like asking if a cocker-spaniel differs from a dog. >> > > > So you're saying that the yendi is the small, cute, bouncy, > tail-wagging floppy-eared fluffywuffy member of the snake family? > No , they just want you to _think_ they are. Andrew. From ambyrglow at softhome.net Mon Oct 14 22:00:52 2002 From: ambyrglow at softhome.net (Claire Rojstaczer) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 01:00:52 -0400 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff In-Reply-To: <200210150047.AA3277192@amish2000.com> References: <200210150047.AA3277192@amish2000.com> Message-ID: >Someone, probably cool, wrote: > >>At 05:59 PM 10/14/2002 -0700, M J wrote: >>> >>> > - Will "Hawk" be about Daymar, or will it be about Paarfi, or >>>will it >>> >be *by* Paarfi about Vlad? >>> >>>If it's about Daymar I'm buying FIFTY COPIES. Of hardcover AND >of >>>soft. Daymar makes me want to cuddle him. >> >>Someone really needs to pass this on to you-know-who. > >REALLY? Do you think Daymar would LET me cuddle him?! > >MJ, >starry-eyed, possibly snarky > >? If he thought he could learn something interesting from it, certainly. He'd probably be too distracted to stop. Claire PS MJ, your computer clock appears to be a bit ahead of reality. Any chance of fixing it? From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Oct 14 23:21:24 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 23:21:24 -0700 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021014195405.00a95510@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021014232030.0334c240@localhost> At 09:48 PM 10/14/2002 -0700, David Silberstein wrote: >On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, Steven Brust wrote: > > >At 01:55 PM 10/14/2002 -0700, David Silberstein wrote: > >> > >> - Does a yendi differ from a snake in any meaningful way? > > > >That's rather like asking if a cocker-spaniel differs from a dog. > > > >So you're saying that the yendi is the small, cute, bouncy, >tail-wagging floppy-eared fluffywuffy member of the snake family? I was thinking more of an irritating, always underfoot, peeing on the carpet, yapping to go out member of the snake family, but I guess it works either way. From books at bofh.com Mon Oct 14 23:34:07 2002 From: books at bofh.com (books at bofh.com) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 23:34:07 -0700 (MST) Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:48:37 -0700 (PDT)" References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021014195405.00a95510@localhost> Message-ID: <01KNO8OIV926000TIT@chud.net> >On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, Steven Brust wrote: >>At 01:55 PM 10/14/2002 -0700, David Silberstein wrote: >>> >>> - Does a yendi differ from a snake in any meaningful way? >> >>That's rather like asking if a cocker-spaniel differs from a dog. >> >So you're saying that the yendi is the small, cute, bouncy, >tail-wagging floppy-eared fluffywuffy member of the snake family? No, he's saying that a yendi snake will pee on your feet and floor. -Jot From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Oct 14 23:39:30 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 01:39:30 -0500 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021014232030.0334c240@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021014195405.00a95510@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20021014232030.0334c240@localhost> Message-ID: <20021015063930.GG1082@infodancer.org> On Mon, Oct 14, 2002 at 11:21:24PM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: > At 09:48 PM 10/14/2002 -0700, David Silberstein wrote: > >On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, Steven Brust wrote: > >>At 01:55 PM 10/14/2002 -0700, David Silberstein wrote: > >>> - Does a yendi differ from a snake in any meaningful way? > >>That's rather like asking if a cocker-spaniel differs from a dog. > >So you're saying that the yendi is the small, cute, bouncy, > >tail-wagging floppy-eared fluffywuffy member of the snake family? > I was thinking more of an irritating, always underfoot, peeing on the > carpet, yapping to go out member of the snake family, but I guess it works > either way. Now, it seems to me that if you had paid attention to the irritating, always-underfoot, and yapping behaviors in a timely fashion, you would have fewer issues with the floor being peed upon. But that's just me. (And let this example state a clear and compelling case *against* a command economy! The invisible hand of the market will allocate its waste-disposal resources more efficiently without the interference of a communal gatekeeper whose excretory needs are not closely tied to the other individuals in his community! Thus proven, ladies and gentlefolk: Communism results in a pile of crap.) There, that should be inflammatory enough to draw a response. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From andrew at networkharmoni.com.au Tue Oct 15 00:02:26 2002 From: andrew at networkharmoni.com.au (Andrew Bailey) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:02:26 +0800 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021014195405.00a95510@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20021014232030.0334c240@localhost> <20021015063930.GG1082@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <3DABBD82.8090103@networkharmoni.com.au> Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Mon, Oct 14, 2002 at 11:21:24PM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: > >>At 09:48 PM 10/14/2002 -0700, David Silberstein wrote: >> >>>On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, Steven Brust wrote: >>> >>>>At 01:55 PM 10/14/2002 -0700, David Silberstein wrote: >>>> >>>>> - Does a yendi differ from a snake in any meaningful way? >>>> >>>>That's rather like asking if a cocker-spaniel differs from a dog. >>> >>>So you're saying that the yendi is the small, cute, bouncy, >>>tail-wagging floppy-eared fluffywuffy member of the snake family? >> >>I was thinking more of an irritating, always underfoot, peeing on the >>carpet, yapping to go out member of the snake family, but I guess it works >>either way. > > > Now, it seems to me that if you had paid attention to the > irritating, always-underfoot, and yapping behaviors in a timely > fashion, you would have fewer issues with the floor being peed > upon. But that's just me. > > (And let this example state a clear and compelling case *against* > a command economy! The invisible hand of the market will > allocate its waste-disposal resources more efficiently without > the interference of a communal gatekeeper whose excretory needs > are not closely tied to the other individuals in his community! > Thus proven, ladies and gentlefolk: Communism results in a pile > of crap.) > Ahh, but it could be equally said, that in a true free market economy the most effcient and cost effective method of waste disposal is to tip it out the window. so under said economy you end up spending your life wading through shit:) > There, that should be inflammatory enough to draw a response. Andrew. From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Oct 15 00:09:47 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 02:09:47 -0500 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff In-Reply-To: <3DABBD82.8090103@networkharmoni.com.au> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021014195405.00a95510@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20021014232030.0334c240@localhost> <20021015063930.GG1082@infodancer.org> <3DABBD82.8090103@networkharmoni.com.au> Message-ID: <20021015070947.GA7519@infodancer.org> On Tue, Oct 15, 2002 at 03:02:26PM +0800, Andrew Bailey wrote: > Matthew Hunter wrote: > >Now, it seems to me that if you had paid attention to the > >irritating, always-underfoot, and yapping behaviors in a timely > >fashion, you would have fewer issues with the floor being peed > >upon. But that's just me. > > > >(And let this example state a clear and compelling case *against* > >a command economy! The invisible hand of the market will > >allocate its waste-disposal resources more efficiently without > >the interference of a communal gatekeeper whose excretory needs > >are not closely tied to the other individuals in his community! > >Thus proven, ladies and gentlefolk: Communism results in a pile > >of crap.) > Ahh, but it could be equally said, that in a true free market economy > the most effcient and cost effective method of waste disposal is to tip > it out the window. so under said economy you end up spending your life > wading through shit:) Not so. Wading through shit is a distinct negative, raising the practical cost for that method of waste non-disposal. Combined with the demand for shit on farms as fertilizer, the cheapest way to dispose of your shit is to sell it to a shit-collection service, which will then sell it to the farmers, thus producing a net profit from the sale of shit (and, if we may speculate, creating the profession of "salesman"?). Of course, honest communists could never participate in such a capitalist system, thus birthing the phrase "I ain't givin' you no shit," as a synonym for honesty, and shortly afterward, the phrase "No shit?!" as an expression for suprise, when they see it working. And finally, exaperated capitalists can answer the communistic demands for government shit to be given to the farmers by withholding food fertilized with private shit, using the now-immortal words... "EAT SHIT!" -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From casey at trinityhartford.org Tue Oct 15 05:47:41 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:47:41 -0400 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff In-Reply-To: <20021015063930.GG1082@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Matthew Hunter wrote: > Now, it seems to me that if you had paid attention to the > irritating, always-underfoot, and yapping behaviors in a timely > fashion, you would have fewer issues with the floor being peed > upon. But that's just me. > > (And let this example state a clear and compelling case *against* > a command economy! The invisible hand of the market will > allocate its waste-disposal resources more efficiently without > the interference of a communal gatekeeper whose excretory needs > are not closely tied to the other individuals in his community! > Thus proven, ladies and gentlefolk: Communism results in a pile > of crap.) Ah, but Matthew your argument presumes that the communal gatekeeper does not have the same excretory needs as other individuals in his community. I must conclude that you have no young children or you could not have missed that best-selling masterpiece of toddler non-fiction _Everyone Poops_. > There, that should be inflammatory enough to draw a response. For inflammatory, you should read _The Gas We Pass_, which came up as a companion offer when I looked up _Everyone Poops_ on Amazon. Casey From feaelin at kemenel.org Tue Oct 15 07:29:19 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:29:19 -0500 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: M J [mailto:saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com] > Sent: Monday, 2002 October 14 23:58 > To: Draegara List > Subject: Re: Questions about genealogy & stuff > There's more than one. There's one by the Necromancer, and there's > at least one by "Katana e'Mar'Chala [sic]", so Mawdyearized by > Vlad, because darn it if someone can mistake "Khaavren" for > "Khaav'n", then Vlad can hear "Kathana e'Marish'Chala" and spell it > "Katana e'Mar'Chala" -- Or Vlad is correct, and Paarfi "fancied" it up, or Kathana changed the spelling of her name between the two eras, or the court scribes and such changed it/mispelled it somewhere, etc. etc. A likely possibility is that some accents drop the 'sh' and 'th' (and substitute 't') constructions (although I don't recall any evidence of this elsewhere), leading to the different spelling. :) I am, of course, making all of this up. :) Iain From casey at trinityhartford.org Tue Oct 15 08:19:40 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:19:40 -0400 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Iain replied to M J's post: > > Vlad, because darn it if someone can mistake "Khaavren" for > > "Khaav'n", then Vlad can hear "Kathana e'Marish'Chala" and spell it > > "Katana e'Mar'Chala" -- [snip] > A likely possibility is that some accents drop the 'sh' and 'th' (and > substitute 't') constructions (although I don't recall any evidence of > this elsewhere), leading to the different spelling. :) Or perhaps the culprit is the r that appears in both names. I can hear in my minds ear an accent in which the vowel following the r gets swallowed up in the quietly rolled r to Vlad and he can't distinguish between shch and ch when this happens (think the difference between the consonant in the middle of misshapen and the one in the middle of mission). Meanwhile, the vowel proceeding the r in Katana's surname is sufficiently altered that Vlad can deduce that it was there. Also, I have not seen any 'rule' described about the use of the apostrophe in Dragaeran names. the e' patronymic prefix aside, what names other than the aforementioned have we seen with one? If in these cases it is simply short hand for "I know there are more letters in here somewhere, but I don't know what they should be and rather than offending someone by misspelling their name, I'm going to admit it up front and hope you can tell who I'm talking about". For that matter, there is no evidence that in fact it is _Vlad_ who misspelled those names, is there? I mean, even though most of the stories are told in first person, does Vlad-as-narrator ever refer to _writing_ down the account that we are reading? There is of course one book that explicitly depicts Vlad giving the story orally, so perhaps the error (if there is one) belongs to an ignorant transcriptionist. > I am, of course, making all of this up. :) As am I. :) Casey From mtiller at ntlworld.com Tue Oct 15 08:33:13 2002 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:33:13 +0100 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501c27460$2cd00d30$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> Sigh.... I had hoped this list would avoid toilet humor...sadly I was mistaken..... Mark -----Original Message----- From: Casey Rousseau [mailto:casey at trinityhartford.org] Sent: 15 October 2002 13:48 To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: RE: Questions about genealogy & stuff Matthew Hunter wrote: > Now, it seems to me that if you had paid attention to the irritating, > always-underfoot, and yapping behaviors in a timely fashion, you would > have fewer issues with the floor being peed upon. But that's just me. > > (And let this example state a clear and compelling case *against* a > command economy! The invisible hand of the market will allocate its > waste-disposal resources more efficiently without the interference of > a communal gatekeeper whose excretory needs are not closely tied to > the other individuals in his community! Thus proven, ladies and > gentlefolk: Communism results in a pile of crap.) Ah, but Matthew your argument presumes that the communal gatekeeper does not have the same excretory needs as other individuals in his community. I must conclude that you have no young children or you could not have missed that best-selling masterpiece of toddler non-fiction _Everyone Poops_. > There, that should be inflammatory enough to draw a response. For inflammatory, you should read _The Gas We Pass_, which came up as a companion offer when I looked up _Everyone Poops_ on Amazon. Casey From casey at trinityhartford.org Tue Oct 15 08:43:54 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:43:54 -0400 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff In-Reply-To: <000501c27460$2cd00d30$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> Message-ID: Mark Tiller wrote: > Sigh.... I had hoped this list would avoid toilet humor...sadly I was > mistaken..... Given the choice between reasonably mild toilet humor and a political flame war I'll go with the mild toilet humor. If we can't laugh at each other's jokes while having a political discussion, we probably should take it offline anyway. Casey From feaelin at kemenel.org Tue Oct 15 09:22:20 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:22:20 -0500 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Casey Rousseau [mailto:casey at trinityhartford.org] > Sent: Tuesday, 2002 October 15 10:44 > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE: Questions about genealogy & stuff > Mark Tiller wrote: > > Sigh.... I had hoped this list would avoid toilet > humor...sadly I was > > mistaken..... > > Given the choice between reasonably mild toilet humor and a > political flame war I'll go with the mild toilet humor. > > If we can't laugh at each other's jokes while having a > political discussion, we probably should take it offline anyway. :). That's my preference for both of those. :). But, then, I'm told that I have no sense of humor. ;) From feaelin at kemenel.org Tue Oct 15 09:29:18 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:29:18 -0500 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Casey Rousseau [mailto:casey at trinityhartford.org] > Sent: Tuesday, 2002 October 15 10:20 > To: Dragaera > Subject: RE: Questions about genealogy & stuff > For that matter, there is no evidence that in fact it is > _Vlad_ who misspelled those names, is there? I mean, even > though most of the stories are told in first person, does > Vlad-as-narrator ever refer to _writing_ down the account > that we are reading? There is of course one book that > explicitly depicts Vlad giving the story orally, so perhaps > the error (if there is one) belongs to an ignorant transcriptionist. Oh definitely. Or any number of similar failure points along the way >from the oral comments to the final book form (editors, typesetters, etc. etc.) From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Oct 15 09:19:53 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:19:53 -0500 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff In-Reply-To: References: <20021015063930.GG1082@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20021015161953.GA12606@infodancer.org> On Tue, Oct 15, 2002 at 08:47:41AM -0400, Casey Rousseau wrote: > Matthew Hunter wrote: > > Now, it seems to me that if you had paid attention to the > > irritating, always-underfoot, and yapping behaviors in a timely > > fashion, you would have fewer issues with the floor being peed > > upon. But that's just me. > > (And let this example state a clear and compelling case *against* > > a command economy! The invisible hand of the market will > > allocate its waste-disposal resources more efficiently without > > the interference of a communal gatekeeper whose excretory needs > > are not closely tied to the other individuals in his community! > > Thus proven, ladies and gentlefolk: Communism results in a pile > > of crap.) > Ah, but Matthew your argument presumes that the communal gatekeeper does not > have the same excretory needs as other individuals in his community. I must > conclude that you have no young children or you could not have missed that > best-selling masterpiece of toddler non-fiction _Everyone Poops_. I have severe concerns about any human whose excretory needs exactly match those of a yipping, irritating, door-scratching entity, whether yendi or canine. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From RuhlenR at missouri.edu Tue Oct 15 09:30:59 2002 From: RuhlenR at missouri.edu (Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student)) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:30:59 -0500 Subject: Excretory Discussion Message-ID: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E0124546C@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> > -----Original Message----- > From: Matthew Hunter [mailto:matthew at infodancer.org] > I have severe concerns about any human whose excretory needs > exactly match those of a yipping, irritating, door-scratching > entity, whether yendi or canine. You shouldn't. Such a human is called a "child". Rachel From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Oct 15 09:41:16 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 15 Oct 2002 11:41:16 -0500 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021014195645.032900b0@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021014195645.032900b0@localhost> Message-ID: Steven Brust writes: > At 05:59 PM 10/14/2002 -0700, M J wrote: > > > > > - Will "Hawk" be about Daymar, or will it be about Paarfi, or > >will it > > >be *by* Paarfi about Vlad? > > > >If it's about Daymar I'm buying FIFTY COPIES. Of hardcover AND of > >soft. Daymar makes me want to cuddle him. > > Someone really needs to pass this on to you-know-who. Done, if the address in the directory is correct. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Oct 15 09:32:07 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:32:07 -0500 Subject: Excretory Discussion In-Reply-To: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E0124546C@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> References: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E0124546C@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: <20021015163207.GB12606@infodancer.org> On Tue, Oct 15, 2002 at 11:30:59AM -0500, "Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student)" wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Matthew Hunter [mailto:matthew at infodancer.org] > > I have severe concerns about any human whose excretory needs > > exactly match those of a yipping, irritating, door-scratching > > entity, whether yendi or canine. > You shouldn't. Such a human is called a "child". Your children yip and scratch doors to go outside when they...? Oh dear. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From bertowud at gator.net Tue Oct 15 10:04:49 2002 From: bertowud at gator.net (Robert Wood) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 13:04:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Excretory Discussion In-Reply-To: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E0124546C@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> References: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E0124546C@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: <59640.209.208.44.34.1034701489.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Matthew Hunter [mailto:matthew at infodancer.org] > >> I have severe concerns about any human whose excretory needs >> exactly match those of a yipping, irritating, door-scratching >> entity, whether yendi or canine. > > You shouldn't. Such a human is called a "child". > Rachel I think Matthew covered that except for maybe the door scratching. Robert From mtiller at ntlworld.com Tue Oct 15 10:05:41 2002 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 18:05:41 +0100 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401c2746d$17e44b90$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> Casey....I was kidding..... -----Original Message----- From: Casey Rousseau [mailto:casey at trinityhartford.org] Sent: 15 October 2002 16:44 To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: RE: Questions about genealogy & stuff Mark Tiller wrote: > Sigh.... I had hoped this list would avoid toilet humor...sadly I was > mistaken..... Given the choice between reasonably mild toilet humor and a political flame war I'll go with the mild toilet humor. If we can't laugh at each other's jokes while having a political discussion, we probably should take it offline anyway. Casey From rone at ennui.org Tue Oct 15 10:17:14 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:17:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Excretory Discussion In-Reply-To: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E0124546C@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: <20021015171714.3459326E2E@boredom.ennui.org> Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student) writes: From: Matthew Hunter [mailto:matthew at infodancer.org] > I have severe concerns about any human whose excretory needs > exactly match those of a yipping, irritating, door-scratching > entity, whether yendi or canine. You shouldn't. Such a human is called a "child". Oh, i thought we were talking about politicians again. rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From davids at kithrup.com Tue Oct 15 11:09:23 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 11:09:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021014195645.032900b0@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, Steven Brust wrote: >At 05:59 PM 10/14/2002 -0700, M J wrote: >> >> > - Will "Hawk" be about Daymar, or will it be about Paarfi, or >>will it >> >be *by* Paarfi about Vlad? >> >>If it's about Daymar I'm buying FIFTY COPIES. Of hardcover AND of >>soft. Daymar makes me want to cuddle him. > >Someone really needs to pass this on to you-know-who. > I had a Thought about Daymar - namely, that during the Interregnum, he (and others like him) would have been incredibly important, with his powers very much in demand. There may even have been someone who controlled access to Daymar, and made suggestions as to what Daymar should pay attention to. Perhaps that was Kragar? Of course, after the Interregnum ended demands on him would have quickly petered out. Except from those who wanted to cuddle him, of course. From vikipants at hotmail.com Tue Oct 15 12:07:18 2002 From: vikipants at hotmail.com (Rob Bokkon) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:07:18 -0500 Subject: Questions about genealogy (the e'Mar'Chala thing) Message-ID: I think what's going on here is not a fumble on Vlad's part, nor a transcription error, but rather a general linguistic habit on the part of Dragaerans. For example, in PG (pp. 49-50 in the paperback edition) we have a reference to the "Sivali-Yangorra stones", a game you may recognize from the Vlad books as "S'yang Stones". It could be that, either as a result of the general pragmatism of post-Interregnum society, or simple laziness, Dragaerans have taken to leaving a few letters out of the most polysyllabic words/names. Think modern French versus Medieval French. Just a thought... RMB From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Tue Oct 15 12:37:45 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:37:45 -0400 Subject: Excretory Discussion References: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E0124546C@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> <20021015163207.GB12606@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <3DAC6E89.608E0375@earthlink.net> Matthew Hunter wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 15, 2002 at 11:30:59AM -0500, "Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student)" wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Matthew Hunter [mailto:matthew at infodancer.org] > > > I have severe concerns about any human whose excretory needs > > > exactly match those of a yipping, irritating, door-scratching > > > entity, whether yendi or canine. > > You shouldn't. Such a human is called a "child". > > Your children yip and scratch doors to go outside when they...? That's on a good day. *grin* Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From RuhlenR at missouri.edu Tue Oct 15 12:56:20 2002 From: RuhlenR at missouri.edu (Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student)) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:56:20 -0500 Subject: Questions about genealogy (the e'Mar'Chala thing) Message-ID: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E01245470@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Bokkon [mailto:vikipants at hotmail.com] > or simple laziness, Dragaerans have taken to leaving a few > letters out of the most polysyllabic words/names. Think > modern French versus Medieval French. Just a thought... RMB Paarfi says in an interview (or preface?) that he used phrases & language that would or might have been in use at the time. Perhaps this includes spelling. Either that's the spelling that was used at the time, and it did change (along with pronunciation), or he's using poetic license to give it that flavor. Paarfi aside, SKZB may have chosen these discrepencies as a way of emphasizing the different "authors". Rachel From davids at kithrup.com Tue Oct 15 13:48:54 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 13:48:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Excretory Discussion In-Reply-To: <3DAC6E89.608E0375@earthlink.net> Message-ID: [snip *everything*] Way to keep the tone up, guys. "What's this thing? The... drag a era list? Sounds painful." "It's pronounced 'Dra-GAH-ra'" "Oh, like that's real obvious. So, what do you talk about?" "Books by this guy <*holds up book*>" "<*reads*>: 'Orca, by Steven Burst'. "It's "*Brust*, dammit." "Sorry. He writes about whales? Why's there a microdragon on the cover?" "It's not about whales. And that's a jhereg, not a dragon." "OK, whatever. So what do you talk about?" "Uh. Guys with swords & Hungarian & shit. And magic & shit. Parodies of French adventure novels & shit. Vampires & weapons that suck the souls out of people's bodies & shit. Real badass warriors & sorcerors & goth necromancers & shit. Marxism & writing & shit. You know. All kinds of shit." "Oooo-kay. Got it." From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Oct 15 13:54:51 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 16:54:51 -0400 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff Message-ID: <314EB36D.7F70308A.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated 10/14/2002 11:57:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, "M J" writes: > ... ?True. ?I was about to say that "Well, gosh, Morrolan > could've looked him up while they were in the Paths of the > Dead," but then remembered that poor Molric has gone the > way of the chaoticnessish. So? Tortaalik got chaosified too, but we're told he ended up in the Paths with the Orb anyway. --KG From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Oct 15 14:01:54 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 17:01:54 -0400 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff Message-ID: <5E07127B.04C8CA49.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:32:46 +0800, Andrew Bailey writes: > On names and lineages, it seems that when someone signs > something they put down their Lineage block, I wonder what > the lineage block of Aliera e'Kieron looks like? I want to see Sethra's. We're told her parents' names are listed, but no one else. --KG From den at monger.net Tue Oct 15 13:48:42 2002 From: den at monger.net (Dennis Higbee) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 13:48:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff In-Reply-To: <314EB36D.7F70308A.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Oct 2002 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/14/2002 11:57:35 PM Eastern Standard > Time, "M J" writes: > > > ... ?True. ?I was about to say that "Well, gosh, Morrolan > > could've looked him up while they were in the Paths of the > > Dead," but then remembered that poor Molric has gone the > > way of the chaoticnessish. > > So? Tortaalik got chaosified too, but we're told he ended > up in the Paths with the Orb anyway. I don't think he did. He took the trip BEFORE Adron's Disaster. His body got dissolved, but his soul may already have left. (Or Vlad may have been wrong about the details of Zerika's recovery of the Orb.) -Dennis From pendragon at vaxer.net Tue Oct 15 14:23:27 2002 From: pendragon at vaxer.net (A Knight in White Satin) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 17:23:27 -0400 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff References: <314EB36D.7F70308A.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <3DAC874F.40002@vaxer.net> Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > So? Tortaalik got chaosified too, but we're told he ended > up in the Paths with the Orb anyway. If memory serves... Tortaalik's *body* is now part of the Lesser Sea of Flux, but his *soul* had already departed for the Paths, courtesy of Mario. Sethra acted to protect the Orb by sending it to the Paths *before* it could be destroyed. Doug O. -- "Can I go look for the holy grail again?" Tom requested. * TagZilla 0.025 From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Oct 15 17:17:31 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 20:17:31 -0400 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff Message-ID: <2BAF502D.68676E4A.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated 10/15/2002 4:23:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, A Knight in White Satin writes: > Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > >> So? ?Tortaalik got chaosified too, but we're told he ended >> up in the Paths with the Orb anyway. > > If memory serves... > > Tortaalik's *body* is now part of the Lesser Sea of Flux, > but his *soul* had already departed for the Paths, courtesy > of Mario. ?Sethra acted to protect the Orb by sending it to > the Paths *before* it could be destroyed. But souls normally hang around their body for a couple days before departing for other places. Sure, Sethra may have done something, but she already had her hands full trying to save the Orb, herself, and Aliera (in that order), so why would she bother? --KG From davids at kithrup.com Wed Oct 16 00:29:54 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 00:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff In-Reply-To: <200210142157.AA670958106@amish2000.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, M J wrote: >David Silberstein wrote, because he felt like it: > >>On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, M J wrote: >> [huge snippage] >>>Besides, it amuses me to think of Morrolan seething in jealousy >>>that his brother Molric got to be Adron's CHAINMAN, and he never >>>even got to MEET Adron. >> >>Is it stated that Molric is Rollondar's son? I was looking for >>that, but again, grepping dead trees is difficult. > >Ayup. Rollondar sez at one point in FHYA that "[my] eldest son is >the Heir's chainman". I found a couple corrborating quotes (or something like it): pg 141 (Khaavren goes to meet Adron the first time around). Adron sez: "To-day my cousin is Warlord, and his younger son is my chainman [...]", and a little further on, Khaavren sez: " [...] Lord Rollondar -- your cousin [...]" I am curious to know if you misremembered the above, or whether Rollondar really does say "eldest" in contradiction to Adron saying "youngest". (Also, on pg 137, it says that Molric e'Drien is Adron's nephew & chainman). >> >>I did find the line that says that Molric "would never meet his >>brother", but it is not said that his brother was definitely >>Morrolan. > >... True. I was about to say that "Well, gosh, Morrolan could've >looked him up while they were in the Paths of the Dead," but then >remembered that poor Molric has gone the way of the chaoticnessish. I am not sure that chaos destroys the soul. And we have evidence that at least one soul remains intact within the Lesser Sea even to the current point in time, so perhaps all of the other souls escaped as well, and maybe Molric has already reincarnated. >>Something else I've been wondering is whether Dragons name their >>kids according to the father's name or by the dominant lineage >>(although it may be that the father's lineage is always the >>dominant one, I dunno). >Doesn't square with Khaavren's assertion that daughters take after >mothers and that sons take after their fathers, does it? So, then, >are sons named for their father's line, and then daughters are >named for their mothe -- NO, BECAUSE OF ALIERA E'KIERON. Ah, but Aliera is very unusual in more than one way. So perhaps she's different in her lineage & naming & whatnot as well. But Steve refuses to give clue one in that direction. From davids at kithrup.com Wed Oct 16 00:46:42 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 00:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff In-Reply-To: <5E07127B.04C8CA49.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Oct 2002 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >In a message dated Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:32:46 +0800, Andrew >Bailey writes: > >> On names and lineages, it seems that when someone signs >> something they put down their Lineage block, I wonder what >> the lineage block of Aliera e'Kieron looks like? >I want to see Sethra's. We're told her parents' names are >listed, but no one else. > No, we're told (pg 103): "Her lineage block [...] is in the form of a downward pointing arrowhead or triangle, entirely self-contained, with no lines either entering or emerging, as if her maternal and paternal ancestor had appeared from nowhere at all, begotten her, and vanished." No names mentioned at all. I wonder if she is perhaps an uncreated looping time-traveller, like [spoiler] from Pratchett's "Pyramids". From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Wed Oct 16 03:59:47 2002 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 03:59:47 -0700 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff Message-ID: <200210160359.AA197067198@amish2000.com> >>David Silberstein wrote, because he felt like it: >[huge snippage] Boy, was it ever. >>Ayup. Rollondar sez at one point in FHYA that "[my] eldest son is >>the Heir's chainman". > >I found a couple corrborating quotes (or something like it): pg 141 >(Khaavren goes to meet Adron the first time around). Adron sez: >"To-day my cousin is Warlord, and his younger son is my chainman >[...]", and a little further on, Khaavren sez: " [...] Lord Rollondar >-- your cousin [...]" > >I am curious to know if you misremembered the above, or whether >Rollondar really does say "eldest" in contradiction to Adron saying >"youngest". ... I won't know until I get to my copy, or beat its current location out of my brother's hide, but I swear that I remember Rollondar saying that his eldest son is Adron's chainman... ... And if Rollondar is Adron's cousin and his wife was Adron's sister, and ... by jeepers, this is worse than the Wars of the Roses or trying to figure out Muscovite treasury forms. >(Also, on pg 137, it says that Molric e'Drien is Adron's nephew & >chainman). AND cousin once removed, then! Dragons are like hobbits, apparently. >>>I did find the line that says that Molric "would never meet his >>>brother", but it is not said that his brother was definitely >>>Morrolan. >> >>... True. I was about to say that "Well, gosh, Morrolan could've >>looked him up while they were in the Paths of the Dead," but then >>remembered that poor Molric has gone the way of the chaoticnessish. > >I am not sure that chaos destroys the soul. Well, since it's chaos, it probably mucks it up something horrible, unless that soul happens to be someone who may or may not have been mentioned in a book that may or may not be titled _Issola_. (I don't have enough patience to write out spoiler warnings.) >And we have evidence that >at least one soul remains intact within the Lesser Sea even to the >current point in time, so perhaps all of the other souls escaped as >well, and maybe Molric has already reincarnated. ... If Kragar is Molric-again, Molric having seemed to be such a nice unassuming modest little Dragonling, I will squee from joy several times over. But he probably won't be. BUT IF HE IS, I will squee. >>>Something else I've been wondering is whether Dragons name their >>>kids according to the father's name or by the dominant lineage >>>(although it may be that the father's lineage is always the >>>dominant one, I dunno). > >>Doesn't square with Khaavren's assertion that daughters take after >>mothers and that sons take after their fathers, does it? So, then, >>are sons named for their father's line, and then daughters are >>named for their mothe -- NO, BECAUSE OF ALIERA E'KIERON. > >Ah, but Aliera is very unusual in more than one way. So perhaps >she's different in her lineage & naming & whatnot as well. But Steve >refuses to give clue one in that direction. Yay Steve! Well, yesh, Aliera's a thorny sort of tricksomeness. Perhaps we should just declare her "UNIQUELY NAMED AND BLOCKED" and set her aside in her own widdle COOL CATEGORY, and that would be great, because I am becoming strangely fond of my mother-daughter, father- son naming theory. ? MJ, up far past her bedtime From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Wed Oct 16 04:05:02 2002 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 04:05:02 -0700 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff Message-ID: <200210160405.AA195428772@amish2000.com> A bunch of people, some of them me but most being David Silberstein, wrote: >>>soft. Daymar makes me want to cuddle him. >> >>Someone really needs to pass this on to you-know-who. > >I had a Thought about Daymar - namely, that during the Interregnum, >he (and others like him) would have been incredibly important, with >his powers very much in demand. This'd be true for some things like psionic tags and ... those cool psi-print map things and whatnot, but I'm not too sure about how useful Daymar, however much a wonderful cuddlebug he is, would have been against the plagues... >There may even have been someone who controlled access to Daymar, >and made suggestions as to what Daymar should pay attention to. >Perhaps that was Kragar? DAYMAR ON A LEASH WITH JESSES AND HOOD! ... I am terribly terribly sorry. That was a horrible horrible thing to say. I coudln't help myself. But yeah, that makes sense. Personally, if I were Daymar's .. information-broker-person, I wouldn't let him out of my sight, in case he stumbled into an interesting-looking patch of sumac or the like. >Except from those who wanted to cuddle him, of course. _Everyone_ wants to cuddle Daymar, whether they'll admit it or not. You remember Vlad nattering on about how memory is a funny thing? One of the things he doens't remember is glomping Daymar hello whenever he sees him. Morrolan glomps Daymar whenever the opportunity presents itself. Even Aliera will snuggle with Daymar. Daymar is IRRESISTABLE. ? MJ, struck by thoughts of making a Daymar plushie From davids at kithrup.com Wed Oct 16 01:45:46 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 01:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff In-Reply-To: <200210160405.AA195428772@amish2000.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, M J wrote: >_Everyone_ wants to cuddle Daymar, whether they'll admit it or not. >You remember Vlad nattering on about how memory is a funny thing? >One of the things he doens't remember is glomping Daymar hello >whenever he sees him. Morrolan glomps Daymar whenever the >opportunity presents itself. Even Aliera will snuggle with Daymar. >Daymar is IRRESISTABLE. You know, if you are planning to write "The Secret Diaries of Daymar (etc)", full of humourous repetitions of "Kragar will kill him if he tries anything", I *strongly* recommend that you not post them here. You might break Steve's brain, and remember, you can't get any more books if you break the writer's brain. From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Wed Oct 16 04:37:55 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 06:37:55 -0500 Subject: Excretory Discussion References: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E0124546C@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> <20021015163207.GB12606@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Tue, Oct 15, 2002 at 11:30:59AM -0500, "Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC- > Student)" wrote: >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Matthew Hunter [mailto:matthew at infodancer.org] >>> I have severe concerns about any human whose excretory needs >>> exactly match those of a yipping, irritating, door-scratching >>> entity, whether yendi or canine. You shouldn't. Such a human is >>> called a "child". > > Your children yip and scratch doors to go outside when they...? > If only they did my life would be easier. From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Wed Oct 16 04:53:48 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 06:53:48 -0500 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff Message-ID: > Andrew Bailey wrote: > > Matthew Hunter wrote: > >> On Mon, Oct 14, 2002 at 11:21:24PM -0700, Steven Brust > >> wrote: > >> > >>> At 09:48 PM 10/14/2002 -0700, David Silberstein wrote: > >>> > >>>> On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, Steven Brust wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> At 01:55 PM 10/14/2002 -0700, David Silberstein wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> - Does a yendi differ from a snake in any meaningful way? > >>>>> > >>>>> That's rather like asking if a cocker-spaniel differs from a dog. > >>>> > >>>> So you're saying that the yendi is the small, cute, bouncy, > >>>> tail-wagging floppy-eared fluffywuffy member of the snake family? > >>> > >>> I was thinking more of an irritating, always underfoot, peeing on > >>> the carpet, yapping to go out member of the snake family, but I > >>> guess it works either way. > >> > >> > >> Now, it seems to me that if you had paid attention to the > >> irritating, always-underfoot, and yapping behaviors in a timely > >> fashion, you would have fewer issues with the floor being peed > >> upon. But that's just me. > >> > >> (And let this example state a clear and compelling case *against* > >> a command economy! The invisible hand of the market will > >> allocate its waste-disposal resources more efficiently without > >> the interference of a communal gatekeeper whose excretory needs > >> are not closely tied to the other individuals in his community! > >> Thus proven, ladies and gentlefolk: Communism results in a pile > >> of crap.) > >> > > > > Ahh, but it could be equally said, that in a true free market economy > > the most effcient and cost effective method of waste disposal is to > > tip it out the window. so under said economy you end up spending your > > life wading through shit:) > > > >> There, that should be inflammatory enough to draw a response. > > > > > > Andrew. > As the inflamatory debate insues the quiet socialists think to themselves "Poo on you!" and chuckle at us. Bastards. Bugger this I'm going to a Canada to take a shit. From rick at 404.978.org Wed Oct 16 07:24:36 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:24:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Glomps? (was: Re: Questions about genealogy & stuff) In-Reply-To: <200210160405.AA195428772@amish2000.com> References: <200210160405.AA195428772@amish2000.com> Message-ID: <4199.192.168.1.1.1034778276.squirrel@404.978.org> M J said: >>>>Daymar makes me want to cuddle him. > _Everyone_ wants to cuddle Daymar, whether they'll admit it or not. > You remember Vlad nattering on about how memory is a funny thing? One > of the things he doens't remember is glomping Daymar hello > whenever he sees him. Morrolan glomps Daymar whenever the > opportunity presents itself. Even Aliera will snuggle with Daymar. > Daymar is IRRESISTABLE. Glomps? I waded through three pages of Google links full of pages of references to fixation on anime characters, with nothing approximating a definition of "glomp", and only the most general of contextual clues. Please explain? -Rick From rick at 404.978.org Wed Oct 16 07:39:41 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:39:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Glomps? (was: Re: Questions about genealogy &amp; stuff) In-Reply-To: <4199.192.168.1.1.1034778276.squirrel@404.978.org> References: <200210160405.AA195428772@amish2000.com> <4199.192.168.1.1.1034778276.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: <4281.192.168.1.1.1034779181.squirrel@404.978.org> Rick Castello said: > Glomps? > > I waded through three pages of Google links full of pages > of references to fixation on anime characters, with nothing > approximating a definition of "glomp", and only the most > general of contextual clues. > > Please explain? From the answering your own question department: After trying out different search terms, I was finally able to find a definition: Glomp - is a very tight hug given by one person to another. (http://hannah.firedrop.nu/glomp/) Hmph. -Rick From pendragon at vaxer.net Wed Oct 16 07:43:13 2002 From: pendragon at vaxer.net (A Knight in White Satin) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:43:13 -0400 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff References: Message-ID: <3DAD7B01.1010409@vaxer.net> David Silberstein wrote: >>Doesn't square with Khaavren's assertion that daughters take after >>mothers and that sons take after their fathers, does it? So, then, >>are sons named for their father's line, and then daughters are >>named for their mothe -- NO, BECAUSE OF ALIERA E'KIERON. > Ah, but Aliera is very unusual in more than one way. So perhaps > she's different in her lineage & naming & whatnot as well. But Steve > refuses to give clue one in that direction. I can readily see Aliera breaking convention on naming, if she was entitled to take "e'Kieron" but "convention" said otherwise. It's another excuse to challenge for a duel, after all, if anybody makes an issue of it. [Remember, the bit about levitating under longer gowns to disguise her height] Doug O. -- A cat is only domestic so far as suits its own needs. -- Heinlein * TagZilla 0.025 -- Always remember no matter where you go, there you are. * TagZilla 0.025 From rick at 404.978.org Wed Oct 16 07:49:24 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:49:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Glomps? (was: Re: Questions about genealogy &amp; stuff) In-Reply-To: <4281.192.168.1.1.1034779181.squirrel@404.978.org> References: <200210160405.AA195428772@amish2000.com> <4199.192.168.1.1.1034778276.squirrel@404.978.org> <4281.192.168.1.1.1034779181.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: <4323.192.168.1.1.1034779764.squirrel@404.978.org> Rick Castello said: > Rick Castello said: >> Glomps? >> >> I waded through three pages of Google links full of pages >> of references to fixation on anime characters, with nothing >> approximating a definition of "glomp", and only the most >> general of contextual clues. >> >> Please explain? > > From the answering your own question department: > > After trying out different search terms, I was finally able to > find a definition: > > Glomp - is a very tight hug given by one person to another. > > (http://hannah.firedrop.nu/glomp/) or again: What does "Glomp" mean? When a person [usually a female], latches onto a bishonen or cute guy and refuses to let go. Expresses a crazed form of affection. -Rick From RuhlenR at missouri.edu Wed Oct 16 08:32:30 2002 From: RuhlenR at missouri.edu (Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student)) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:32:30 -0500 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff Message-ID: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E01245472@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> > -----Original Message----- > From: A Knight in White Satin [mailto:pendragon at vaxer.net] > David Silberstein wrote: > >>Doesn't square with Khaavren's assertion that daughters take after > >>mothers and that sons take after their fathers, does it? So, then, > >>are sons named for their father's line, and then daughters are > >>named for their mothe -- NO, BECAUSE OF ALIERA E'KIERON. > > > Ah, but Aliera is very unusual in more than one way. So > perhaps she's > > different in her lineage & naming & whatnot as well. But Steve > > refuses to give clue one in that direction. > > I can readily see Aliera breaking convention on naming, if > she was entitled to > take "e'Kieron" but "convention" said otherwise. It's > another excuse to > challenge for a duel, after all, if anybody makes an issue of > it. [Remember, > the bit about levitating under longer gowns to disguise her height] Perhaps the girl-mother boy-father theory is right. But how would you go about naming your daugther after Verra, her mother? It's logical to take "e'Kieron"...and then duel anyone who breathes the word "bastard". Rachel From nytemuse at auros.org Wed Oct 16 09:50:28 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 09:50:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, David Silberstein wrote: > >Doesn't square with Khaavren's assertion that daughters take after > >mothers and that sons take after their fathers, does it? So, then, > >are sons named for their father's line, and then daughters are > >named for their mothe -- NO, BECAUSE OF ALIERA E'KIERON. > > Ah, but Aliera is very unusual in more than one way. So perhaps > she's different in her lineage & naming & whatnot as well. But Steve > refuses to give clue one in that direction. Well, my take on this was always the uniqueness of Aliera's mother. I mean, who would believe it if she called herself Aliera e'Verra? *shrug* I also wonder if the child or parents maybe chose the last name to pass on, depending on mother/father achivements, nobleness of line, possibilities of inheritance, etc. ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From davids at kithrup.com Wed Oct 16 10:50:43 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:50:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Glomps? (was: Re: Questions about genealogy &amp; stuff) In-Reply-To: <4323.192.168.1.1.1034779764.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, Rick Castello wrote: >Rick Castello said: >> Rick Castello said: >>> Glomps? [snipped] >> >> Glomp - is a very tight hug given by one person to another. >> >> (http://hannah.firedrop.nu/glomp/) > > or again: > > What does "Glomp" mean? > > When a person [usually a female], latches onto a bishonen > or cute guy and refuses to let go. Expresses a crazed form > of affection. Ah. When I saw the first definition, I thought it was kind of redundant (why not just *say* "tight hug"?). But from the above, it would appear to mean "Attempt by someone to graft themselves to a target person through sheer force of will". Definitely crazed affection. :-) From davids at kithrup.com Wed Oct 16 11:29:07 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 11:29:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff In-Reply-To: <3DAD7B01.1010409@vaxer.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, A Knight in White Satin wrote: >David Silberstein wrote: >>>Doesn't square with Khaavren's assertion that daughters take after >>>mothers and that sons take after their fathers, does it? So, then, >>>are sons named for their father's line, and then daughters are >>>named for their mothe -- NO, BECAUSE OF ALIERA E'KIERON. >> Ah, but Aliera is very unusual in more than one way. So perhaps >> she's different in her lineage & naming & whatnot as well. But >> Steve refuses to give clue one in that direction. > >I can readily see Aliera breaking convention on naming, if she was >entitled to take "e'Kieron" but "convention" said otherwise. I'm not sure I take your meaning. Aliera, daughter of Adron e'Kieron, is entitled to be called "e'Kieron" (we know that the e'Kieron lineage is dominant in her because she can work with amorphia in the raw state) (plus she has Adron's arrogance, but I wouldn't say that to her face). On her mother's side, she's the daughter of a goddess. I don't think convention covers that situation. :-) I wondered at one point in rasfw how that might have been accepted by the Dragon Council, and came up with the following scenario: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=selm=GJL5JD.5F5 at kithrup.com DS>And while I'm on the topic, I found myself wondering how DS>Aliera was accepted as a legitimate heir to Adron. Wouldn't DS>the question of where the mother is come up? But then again, DS>I could just see Verra herself showing up before the Dragon DS>Council, just *daring* them to try and rule Aliera illegitimate. DS> DS>Council: "Uh... this council finds Aliera e'Kieron, fathered DS>by Adron e'Kieron and borne by, uh, Verra the Demon Goddess, DS>with e'Kieron dominant, to be a full member of the House of DS>the Dragon and heir to Lord Adron." DS> DS>Verra: "Damn straight." DS> DS>Infant Aliera: *smirk* I see that I was also speculating that perhaps Verra was not actually Aliera's genetic mother and that the Necromancer was the egg donor. Hmm. From vikipants at hotmail.com Wed Oct 16 11:59:31 2002 From: vikipants at hotmail.com (Rob Bokkon) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 13:59:31 -0500 Subject: Jhereg-Dragon War #1 Message-ID: I think this story is a classic example of Vlad not knowing wtf he's talking about...it's absolutely filled with inconsistencies. For example: 1. The mention of "Lower Kieron Road". I'm sure that Dragaera City probably had a Lower Kieron Road, but don't you get the impression that Vlad means the one in Adrilankha? 2. The mention of teleportation. As made clear in FHYA, teleportation wasn't possible (except for one or two notable exceptions) until /after/ the Interregnum. 3. The mention of revivification. When Vlad talks to Verra in Phoenix (p. 117) she mentions that, in the post-Interregnum society, "even resurrection of the dead has become possible". I have a feeling that Verra knows what she's talking about here. Of course, what's really going on here is that Jhereg was the first book written, and there was nothing like a set-in-stone chronology at the time...but for the sake of argument, let's just say that Vlad doesn't have the vaguest idea what he's talking about. From RuhlenR at missouri.edu Wed Oct 16 16:09:04 2002 From: RuhlenR at missouri.edu (Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student)) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 18:09:04 -0500 Subject: Loraan & Blackwand Message-ID: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E0CEB7F@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> After the discussion about why didn't Blackwand kill Loraan? I happened to be reading Taltos and noticed that Vlad did not actually see Morollan kill Loraan with Blackwand. Vlad is knocked over, and when he gets back up, he sees Loraan lying on the floor with a wound, and Morollan standing over him with bloody Blackwand. Here are 3 of the many possibilities: 1) Morollan killed Loraan with Blackwand but as discussed previously this didn't eat his soul for whatever reason. 2) Morollan stabbed Loraan with Blackwand right after he already died (either by Morollan's non-Blackwand carrying hand or by someone else's hand). Morganti & Great Weapons only take the soul of a living person. 3) Someone else killed Loraan and Morollan's sword was bloody from all those other Athyra he just killed. I suspect that for whatever reason, SKZB wrote that scene that way, and then chuckled evilly to himself as he thought of ways he could use that, and poof we have the plot for Athyra. On another issue, as I was reading Athyra, I was troubled that Savn thought Vlad looked old, even though he knew Vlad was probably chronologically younger than himself. According to all the timelines, Vlad should be about 24 in Athyra, unless I'm missing something. Any thoughts on that? Even if Dragaerans tend to look young most of their lives, surely they don't look younger than a 24 year old human? Actually the whole issue of how Dragaerans look at various ages puzzles me, because Vlad talks about being beaten up the first time by Orca kids his size, which meant they were in their early teens, when he was 4 or 5, but Morollan growing up in the East is considered a tall human for his age. A kid who is 15 years old but the size of a 5 year old would be thought of as a short human. Maybe adult Dragaerans all are tall (compared to humans. With the exception of Aliera.) but their growth rates differ depending on their house? Rachel From mam at theworld.com Wed Oct 16 16:14:30 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 19:14:30 -0400 Subject: Loraan & Blackwand In-Reply-To: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E0CEB7F@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student) wrote: #On another issue, as I was reading Athyra, I was troubled that Savn #thought Vlad looked old, even though he knew Vlad was probably #chronologically younger than himself. According to all the timelines, #Vlad should be about 24 in Athyra, unless I'm missing something. Any #thoughts on that? Even if Dragaerans tend to look young most of their #lives, surely they don't look younger than a 24 year old human? Savn is a teenager, maybe about 15, in Easterner terms. Any adult is "old" to a teenager. And whatever Vlad's actual age, he's been through a lot and has been wandering around the countryside avoiding civilization for some time; that will age a person, too. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From RuhlenR at missouri.edu Wed Oct 16 16:15:00 2002 From: RuhlenR at missouri.edu (Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student)) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 18:15:00 -0500 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff Message-ID: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E0124547A@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> > -----Original Message----- > From: Nytemuse [mailto:nytemuse at auros.org] > Well, my take on this was always the uniqueness of Aliera's > mother. I mean, who would believe it if she called herself > Aliera e'Verra? *shrug* I also wonder if the child or > parents maybe chose the last name to pass on, depending on > mother/father achivements, nobleness of line, possibilities > of inheritance, etc. Now that I think about it, it seems more likely that a Dragon chooses his/her patronymic from their ancestors, given that Barritt was such a big shot that his descendants started calling themselves e'Barritt (although almost all of them were wiped out in one of the Dragon-Jhereg wars, and this must have occurred long before Barritt was assassinated). Rachel From davids at kithrup.com Wed Oct 16 16:50:02 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 16:50:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Loraan & Blackwand In-Reply-To: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E0CEB7F@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student) wrote: >After the discussion about why didn't Blackwand kill Loraan? I >happened to be reading Taltos and noticed that Vlad did not actually >see Morollan kill Loraan with Blackwand. Vlad is knocked over, and >when he gets back up, he sees Loraan lying on the floor with a wound, I think the wound is described as a long slash across his chest, "as >from a cut from a greatsword", which is either evidence that Blackwand hit him at *some* point, or is part of the misdirection. >and Morollan standing over him with bloody Blackwand. Here are 3 of >the many possibilities: >1) Morollan killed Loraan with Blackwand but as discussed previously >this didn't eat his soul for whatever reason. >2) Morollan stabbed Loraan with Blackwand right after he already died >(either by Morollan's non-Blackwand carrying hand or by someone else's >hand). Morganti & Great Weapons only take the soul of a living person. Slashed, not stabbed, but OK. Note that others *were* coming to Loraan's rescue right then, which is why Morrolan wanted to flee so precipitously. >3) Someone else killed Loraan and Morollan's sword was bloody from all >those other Athyra he just killed. Maybe Loraan expelled his *own* soul from his body, just to keep it >from the danger of being eaten by hungry Blackwand! But why can't he be revivified from that, I wonder? 4) Maybe one of Morrolans spells that got through (perhaps witchcraft rather than sorcery, which Loraan my not have been expecting) caused the physical damage that is described, without (as you say) Blackwand ever actually touching him. >I suspect that for whatever reason, SKZB wrote that scene that way, >and then chuckled evilly to himself as he thought of ways he could >use that, and poof we have the plot for Athyra. I bet Steve chuckles evilly *all the time*. Especially when reading this list. From Gaertk at aol.com Thu Oct 17 07:15:41 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 10:15:41 -0400 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff Message-ID: <2788B232.24A2A86B.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated 10/16/2002 1:29:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, David Silberstein writes: [Aliera e'Keiron] > On her mother's side, she's the daughter of a goddess. ?I > don't think convention covers that situation. ?:-) > > I wondered at one point in rasfw how that might have been > accepted by the Dragon Council, and came up with the > following scenario: > >http://groups.google.com/groups?q=selm=GJL5JD.5F5 at kithrup.com You need to remove the "q=" to make that link work. > >DS> And while I'm on the topic, I found myself wondering how >DS> Aliera was accepted as a legitimate heir to Adron. >DS>?Wouldn't the question of where the mother is come up? >DS>?But then again, I could just see Verra herself showing >DS> up before the Dragon Council, just *daring* them to try >DS> and rule Aliera illegitimate. >DS> >DS> Council: "Uh... this council finds Aliera e'Kieron, >DS> fathered by Adron e'Kieron and borne by, uh, Verra the >DS> Demon Goddess, with e'Kieron dominant, to be a full >DS> member of the House of the Dragon and heir to Lord >DS> Adron." >DS> >DS> Verra: "Damn straight." >DS> >DS> Infant Aliera: *smirk* > > I see that I was also speculating that perhaps Verra was > not actually Aliera's genetic mother and that the > Necromancer was the egg donor. > Hmm. For some reason I don't remember that discussion, which is odd since I was quoted in that post. Hrm indeed. Of course, they could have just gene-scanned her, and found that she had enough e'Keiron genes to be heir regardless of who her mother was. --KG From davids at kithrup.com Thu Oct 17 09:17:56 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 09:17:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff In-Reply-To: <2788B232.24A2A86B.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 10/16/2002 1:29:07 PM Eastern Standard >Time, David Silberstein writes: > >[Aliera e'Keiron] > >>http://groups.google.com/groups?q=selm=GJL5JD.5F5 at kithrup.com > >You need to remove the "q=" to make that link work. D'oh! Sorry about that. (Memo to self: *always* verify links) http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=GJL5JD.5F5 at kithrup.com [Dragon Council gets testimony straight from Verra] >> I see that I was also speculating that perhaps Verra was >> not actually Aliera's genetic mother and that the >> Necromancer was the egg donor. >> Hmm. > >For some reason I don't remember that discussion, which is >odd since I was quoted in that post. Hrm indeed. > >Of course, they could have just gene-scanned her, and found >that she had enough e'Keiron genes to be heir regardless of >who her mother was. > True, but they would want to know who the mother is as well - with her blonde hair, for example, Aliera could be a Dragon-Phoenix crossbreed, and crossbreeding is Bad. But if they did the scan, and found Dragon genes (and e'Kieron lineage within that set of genes), and *no* other Dragaeran genes of any other House... They might then be willing to accept Adron's sworn testimony that Verra was Aliera's mother. Still, I think Verra herself telling the council is more amusing. :-) From mr1 at rcosta.com Thu Oct 17 09:50:10 2002 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 12:50:10 -0400 Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff In-Reply-To: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E0124547A@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: <3DAEB202.5795.E0FF32@localhost> On 16 Oct 2002 at 18:15, Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-St wrote > Now that I think about it, it seems more likely that a Dragon chooses > his/her patronymic from their ancestors, given that Barritt was such a > big shot that his descendants started calling themselves e'Barritt > (although almost all of them were wiped out in one of the > Dragon-Jhereg wars, and this must have occurred long before Barritt > was assassinated). Rachel I seem to remember that one of the books did mention something about being able to chose which lineage became part of a person's name. I can't seem to remember which one though... And, being that I am at work, none of my books are within checking distance. Anyone willing to check for me? :-) M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From nytemuse at auros.org Thu Oct 17 10:44:31 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 10:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff In-Reply-To: <3DAEB202.5795.E0FF32@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, Michele Riccio wrote: > I seem to remember that one of the books did mention something > about being able to chose which lineage became part of a person's > name. I can't seem to remember which one though... Hrm. I wonder if hyphenation has ever been done...y'know, like a child wanting to acknowledge both lines of his/her family. Kind of like So-and-So e'Kieron-Drien or something *wry g* ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." 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Nonymous" yulia_nixie (at) mail.ru (email) "nixie" zaphod (at) charter.net (email) "Greg Schwartz" zizban (at) adelphia.net (email) Chris Turkel From irtheweasel at hotmail.com Thu Oct 17 16:39:44 2002 From: irtheweasel at hotmail.com (Wes) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:39:44 -0700 Subject: Dream of Passion Vs. Issola (major spoiler for Issola and DoP) Message-ID: I just read A Dream Of Passion and noted that there were some serious discrepancies between that story and Issola. And even more perplexing questions that I thought that maybe others had speculated upon. 1. How did Vlad have Spellbreaker again? He even referred to it as >the gold chain I had misnamed Spellbreaker 2. Kragar's dead?!? Did the mysterious woman in white kill him? Vlad says: >she'd killed two people I knew 3. Who was the second person she killed? 4. Who is she? 5. I thought Dragons and Dzur didn't mix...how did she love Morrolan? (mind you Dzur was the only house that Vlad could recognize about her) 6. How did she know about the window? and how could she know that if Morrolan doesn't even know about her? 7. How is godslayer separate from spellbreaker again? spellbreaker became godslayer in Issola...and Vlad had called it "Lady Teldra" 8. Why is Vlad afraid of godslayer? that contradicts the pride he had at the end of Issola. 9. Vlad refers to the woman as a god...which one? 10. Why was Vlad so upset over killing the woman? I know this is a lot of questions, but they vex me. Any ideas? Wes ---------------------------------------------------------------- Please "Help Wes" go to college! Visit his website by clicking here Send Wes To College From mam at theworld.com Thu Oct 17 17:23:54 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 20:23:54 -0400 Subject: Dream of Passion Vs. Issola (major spoiler for Issola and DoP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, Wes wrote: #I just read A Dream Of Passion and noted that there were some serious #discrepancies between that story and Issola. And even more perplexing #questions that I thought that maybe others had speculated upon. 0. There sure are. I believe the listmind's opinion is that ADOP can't be made to fit with _Issola_ and maybe some stuff before that, and is best considered a dream, just as the title says. (Steve left himself an out so he wouldn't be bound by this in developing the continuity -- that's my guess.) That makes most of your questions moot. #1. How did Vlad have Spellbreaker again? He even referred to it as # >the gold chain I had misnamed Spellbreaker See 0. #2. Kragar's dead?!? Did the mysterious woman in white kill him? Vlad says: # >she'd killed two people I knew Two guards, yes? Kragar's apparently dead before this. #3. Who was the second person she killed? See 2. #4. Who is she? Some goddess; see 9. #5. I thought Dragons and Dzur didn't mix...how did she love Morrolan? #(mind you Dzur was the only house that Vlad could recognize about her) So he thought. See 4. #6. How did she know about the window? and how could she know that if #Morrolan doesn't even know about her? See 4. #7. How is godslayer separate from spellbreaker again? spellbreaker #became godslayer in Issola...and Vlad had called it "Lady Teldra" See 0. #8. Why is Vlad afraid of godslayer? that contradicts the pride he had #at the end of Issola. See 0. #9. Vlad refers to the woman as a god...which one? Nobody we know, as far as I know. There are lots of them. #10. Why was Vlad so upset over killing the woman? She wanted his help. She was gorgeous. She offered him a huge bribe. She knew that if he didn't take the job, he would kill her, and she'd given him the means. It was a dream of passion. Does that help? -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Thu Oct 17 17:32:39 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 19:32:39 -0500 Subject: Dream of Passion Vs. Issola (major spoiler for Issola and DoP) References: Message-ID: Wes wrote: > I just read A Dream Of Passion and noted that there were some serious > discrepancies between that story and Issola. And even more > perplexing questions that I thought that maybe others had speculated > upon. > > 1. How did Vlad have Spellbreaker again? He even referred to it as > >the gold chain I had misnamed Spellbreaker > 2. Kragar's dead?!? Did the mysterious woman in white kill him? > Vlad says: > >she'd killed two people I knew > 3. Who was the second person she killed? > 4. Who is she? > 5. I thought Dragons and Dzur didn't mix...how did she love Morrolan? > (mind you Dzur was the only house that Vlad could recognize about > her) > 6. How did she know about the window? and how could she know that if > Morrolan doesn't even know about her? > 7. How is godslayer separate from spellbreaker again? spellbreaker > became godslayer in Issola...and Vlad had called it "Lady Teldra" > 8. Why is Vlad afraid of godslayer? that contradicts the pride he > had at the end of Issola. > 9. Vlad refers to the woman as a god...which one? > 10. Why was Vlad so upset over killing the woman? > > I know this is a lot of questions, but they vex me. Any ideas? > > Wes > Did Steve write this? It's interesting to see where he was in 86' with the godslayer situation, there are obvious contradictions but it would simply appear that this really isn't writ in stone, just pretend for a moment this was Alternate Universe Dragaera and everything works out just fine for that universe becuase this one the one we know about so severely conflicts. From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Thu Oct 17 17:37:24 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 19:37:24 -0500 Subject: Dream of Passion Vs. Issola (major spoiler for Issola and DoP) References: Message-ID: Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, Wes wrote: > > #I just read A Dream Of Passion and noted that there were some serious > #discrepancies between that story and Issola. And even more > perplexing #questions that I thought that maybe others had speculated > upon. > > 0. There sure are. I believe the listmind's opinion is that ADOP can't > be made to fit with _Issola_ and maybe some stuff before that, and is > best considered a dream, just as the title says. (Steve left himself > an out so he wouldn't be bound by this in developing the continuity -- > that's my guess.) That makes most of your questions moot. That really feels like a better fit. I feel silly for not seeing how much the title prefaced the work to let us glimpse into it as being a dream. From davids at kithrup.com Thu Oct 17 17:49:02 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 17:49:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dream of Passion Vs. Issola (major spoiler for Issola and DoP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, Wes wrote: > >#I just read A Dream Of Passion and noted that there were some serious >#discrepancies between that story and Issola. And even more perplexing >#questions that I thought that maybe others had speculated upon. > >0. There sure are. I believe the listmind's opinion is that ADOP can't >be made to fit with _Issola_ and maybe some stuff before that, and is >best considered a dream, just as the title says. (Steve left himself an >out so he wouldn't be bound by this in developing the continuity -- >that's my guess.) That makes most of your questions moot. Also, see Steve's comment on the matter: http://dragaera.info/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?1:mss:96:200206:aldmdlcbgdfjfnllkeep ] [Dream of Passion] was an unpaid little thingy written for the ] chapbook of a convention, and I refuse to be bound by it. Sheesh, ] I no longer even remember what happens in it except for the Zelazny ] reference that was sort's of it's whole point. > >#5. I thought Dragons and Dzur didn't mix...how did she love Morrolan? >#(mind you Dzur was the only house that Vlad could recognize about her) > Just thought I'd point out that "don't mix" *only* means "don't crossbreed". I think love affairs are considered OK as long as there are no children resulting. Consider "The Phoenix Guards", where Khaavren (Tiassa) has the hots for Illista (Phoenix), Pel (Yendi) is sparking Jenicor e'Terics (Dragon), Tazendra has several unnamed "friends", some of whose houses are named as being Hawk & Issola - and no stigma seems to attach to these affairs. Ditto in FHYA, where Aliera (Dragon) gets it on with Mario (Jhereg), and the Vlad books, where Zerika IV (Phoenix) has an Easterner lover - and while that is slightly scandalous, it doesn't seem to have the stigma that would attach to actually having or being a crossbreed would. Incidentally, when Zerika confirms to Vlad that an Easterner is her lover, she says something along the lines of "because that is where his soul resides" - which makes me wonder if perhaps Zerika will be shown to have a Dragaeran lover who is killed at some point in the Khaavren books, and the Easterner Laszlo is the reincarnation of this person. From irtheweasel at hotmail.com Thu Oct 17 17:56:32 2002 From: irtheweasel at hotmail.com (Wes) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 17:56:32 -0700 Subject: Dream of Passion Vs. Issola (major spoiler for Issola and DoP) Message-ID: > 0. There sure are. I believe the listmind's opinion is that ADOP can't > be made to fit with _Issola_ and maybe some stuff before that, and is > best considered a dream, just as the title says. (Steve left himself > an out so he wouldn't be bound by this in developing the continuity -- > that's my guess.) That makes most of your questions moot. That does all seem to make more sense...now if only we knew when Vlad was dreaming...must have been after Issola or he wouldn't have godslayer accessible to him within the dream...you only dream things that are little tidbits of reality....and then seriously twisted. I do hope Steve decides to leave Kragar alone...I don't want him dead. I think Steve should write a sequel to this dream...a recurring dream if you will. Wes From irtheweasel at hotmail.com Thu Oct 17 18:02:54 2002 From: irtheweasel at hotmail.com (Wes) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 18:02:54 -0700 Subject: Dream of Passion Vs. Issola (major spoiler for Issola and DoP) Message-ID: and the Vlad books, where Zerika IV (Phoenix) has an Easterner lover - and while that is slightly scandalous, it doesn't seem to have the stigma that would attach to actually having or being a crossbreed would. I'd forgotten about that part...never really seemed to effect a whole lot, but I guess it does show the social norms pertaining to relationships between peoples of different houses. Incidentally, when Zerika confirms to Vlad that an Easterner is her lover, she says something along the lines of "because that is where his soul resides" - which makes me wonder if perhaps Zerika will be shown to have a Dragaeran lover who is killed at some point in the Khaavren books, and the Easterner Laszlo is the reincarnation of this person. Would be interesting to find out... Wes From davids at kithrup.com Thu Oct 17 18:11:36 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 18:11:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dream of Dragaera In-Reply-To: Message-ID: All this talk of dreams reminds me - has anyone else had dreams of stuff that took place in Dragaera? I had one a while back where Vlad was wandering around some city, and happened to enter a teleportation shipping warehouse (and mentioned that the shippers had to work in shifts so as to avoid spell burnout). He also wrote (or read) a letter which mentioned Aliera taking up witchcraft, and had successfully bonded with an athyra as a familiar (which actually seems plausible because she has experience of at least two places (Greenaere & the [spoiler]'s place in Issola) where she was prevented from using normal sorcery, and she might want to have an alternative to Elder Sorcery (besides powerlessness) available if such a thing happens again. Less plausibly, the letter seemed to say that Kragar had also taken a tiassa (or some other sort of cat) as a familiar (maybe he likes how Loiosh can fly around and give Vlad more info on a situation), or perhaps just as a pet (that part of the letter is fuzzier in my mind). More recently, I had this epic of a dream (by Paarfi, of course) where Dragaerans discovered space flight, and were adventuring all over the galaxy. It was somewhat autobiographical, since Paarfi introduced himself as a character, and started making these absurdly unreliable statements that made me want to shout at him (although I couldn't tell you what they were). At some point he started talking about Great Weapons, and how Vlad Taltos' life was extended by his possessing one. He also seemed to perhaps say that that was why Valabar's had lasted for so long - the head of the Valabar family secretly owned a Great Weapon as well (Morganti chopping knife, anyone? :-) ). There was the implication that in the course of exploring, they came across other peoples who had been manipulated by the Jenoine in a manner similar to Dragaerans - there was something about how House Lion had a character similar to Dragons and Dzur. There was more to it than that, but that's all I retain a coherent memory of. And some months back, I dreamed about reading about an Issola who interviewed a Dragon, which had some very cool setup & dialogue. Pity I don't remember most of what they said. But it was very cool. From andrew at networkharmoni.com.au Thu Oct 17 18:14:42 2002 From: andrew at networkharmoni.com.au (Andrew Bailey) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 09:14:42 +0800 Subject: Dream of Dragaera References: Message-ID: <3DAF6082.2010408@networkharmoni.com.au> David Silberstein wrote: > He also > seemed to perhaps say that that was why Valabar's had lasted for > so long - the head of the Valabar family secretly owned a Great > Weapon as well (Morganti chopping knife, anyone? :-) ). > that-which-disassembles-peppers-in-the-shape-of-a-cooking-utensil? Andrew. From davids at kithrup.com Thu Oct 17 20:07:04 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 20:07:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dream of Dragaera In-Reply-To: <3DAF6082.2010408@networkharmoni.com.au> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Oct 2002, Andrew Bailey wrote: >David Silberstein wrote: > > >> He also seemed to perhaps say that that was why Valabar's had >> lasted for so long - the head of the Valabar family secretly >> owned a Great Weapon as well >> (Morganti chopping knife, anyone? :-)). > > >that-which-disassembles-peppers-in-the-shape-of-a-cooking-utensil? > It slices! It dices! But wait, there's still more! It will be your dearest friend! It will keep you looking young and fit for thousands of years, make you into a master-chef, and will devour the soul of your enemies, or of anyone who tries to steal samples! NOW how much would you pay? But if you make psionic contact right now, you can get this incredible knife for only 17 Orbs & 17 Coppers! Yes, you heard right! The amazing Boneslicer can be yours for only 17.17! Act NOW! From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Oct 17 19:57:47 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 21:57:47 -0500 Subject: Dream of Dragaera In-Reply-To: <3DAF6082.2010408@networkharmoni.com.au> References: <3DAF6082.2010408@networkharmoni.com.au> Message-ID: <20021018025747.GB615@infodancer.org> On Fri, Oct 18, 2002 at 09:14:42AM +0800, Andrew Bailey wrote: > David Silberstein wrote: > >He also > >seemed to perhaps say that that was why Valabar's had lasted for > >so long - the head of the Valabar family secretly owned a Great > >Weapon as well (Morganti chopping knife, anyone? :-) ). > that-which-disassembles-peppers-in-the-shape-of-a-cooking-utensil? That-which-prepares-souls-for-the-flame-and-sauce... -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Thu Oct 17 21:45:13 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 23:45:13 -0500 Subject: Dream of Dragaera References: <3DAF6082.2010408@networkharmoni.com.au> Message-ID: Andrew Bailey wrote: > David Silberstein wrote: > > >> He also >> seemed to perhaps say that that was why Valabar's had lasted for >> so long - the head of the Valabar family secretly owned a Great >> Weapon as well (Morganti chopping knife, anyone? :-) ). >> > > that-which-disassembles-peppers-in-the-shape-of-a-cooking-utensil? > > Andrew. Do vegetables have souls? From mneme at io.com Thu Oct 17 22:10:53 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 00:10:53 -0500 Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ Message-ID: <15791.38877.8321.143928@eris.io.com> It's bit about 3 months and more since the last "fantasy movie cast" thread, (which was before I joined up) so I thought I'd try to start one. To keep things (er, kinda) manageable, how about just the characters >from _Jhereg_? I don't have all -that- many ideas, so I've left most of the cast list blank... (and as an aside, I do think that at least some of the Jhereg books would film really well...even if they did need digital manipulation to get the heights correct). Director: Quentin Tarintino (ok, maybe not -- but wouldn't it be cool?) Maybe Yuen Woo Ping to do the fight choreography/direction. Vlad: Cawti: Aliera: Alison Hannigon Morollan Sethra: Michelle Yeoh Kragar: Loish (voice): -NOT- Robin Williams Kiera: Norathar: Noish-Pa: If he were alive, Danny Kaye The Demon: Daymar: Mellar/Leareth: Lady Teldra: Minor appearances: Keleth (the Dzurlord): The Necromancer: The Sorceress in Green: Sethra the Younger: The Left Hand sorceress: Fentor: Rocza (voice): -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Oct 17 22:02:52 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 00:02:52 -0500 Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ In-Reply-To: <15791.38877.8321.143928@eris.io.com> References: <15791.38877.8321.143928@eris.io.com> Message-ID: <20021018050252.GF615@infodancer.org> On Fri, Oct 18, 2002 at 12:10:53AM -0500, Joshua Kronengold wrote: > It's bit about 3 months and more since the last "fantasy movie cast" > thread, (which was before I joined up) so I thought I'd try to start > one. No offense, but this is what I hate about casting threads. They never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, end. I recognize that some people love to speculate and cast and so on, but if we have a new casting thread every time one of those people joins the list or feels enough time has passed, well, it's going to get annoying rapidly. I'm not asking for a ban or anything. But please -- think before you cast. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From rone at ennui.org Thu Oct 17 22:21:42 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 22:21:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ In-Reply-To: <15791.38877.8321.143928@eris.io.com> Message-ID: <20021018052142.302EB26E2E@boredom.ennui.org> Joshua Kronengold writes: To keep things (er, kinda) manageable, how about just the characters from _Jhereg_? I don't have all -that- many ideas, so I've left most of the cast list blank... Here's my additions. Kragar: Jeff Bridges Loish (voice): Brent Spiner Kiera: Catherine Keener Noish-Pa: Patrick Stewart Daymar: Vincent Schiavelli I'll be driving to San Diego early tomorrow. See some of you there. Look for the guy in the derby. rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From irtheweasel at hotmail.com Fri Oct 18 00:09:55 2002 From: irtheweasel at hotmail.com (Wes) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 00:09:55 -0700 Subject: Brust appearances Message-ID: Anyone know of any other upcoming Brust appearances in CA besides conjecture this weekend? Wes From dar at horusinc.com Fri Oct 18 03:54:13 2002 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 05:54:13 -0500 Subject: Dream of Dragaera In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > All this talk of dreams reminds me - has anyone else had dreams of > stuff that took place in Dragaera? Not really, but my wife and I ran a Cyberpunk campaign about a year ago where the 'Big Secret/Metaplot' was the 'return of Faerie'... Sort of. Using Dragaera as the model for Faerie. There was the Dragon Corporation, Castle Black was a orbital palace, the various Dragaeran's were basically immortal super-psychics (except for Sethra who was a *real* elf), the Great Weapons were all AI's, the Jenoine were noxious alien spiits that were possessing people, all the Easterners who were witches were humans who didn't have the immortality gene, but did have the psychic genome. The players were all psychics, though they didn't know it, and all had the potential to be 'Dragaeran' also if they RP'd well enough... My wife and I had great fun running it, but the players never figured out what the hek was going on. David From RuhlenR at missouri.edu Fri Oct 18 07:59:27 2002 From: RuhlenR at missouri.edu (Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student)) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 09:59:27 -0500 Subject: Dream of Dragaera Message-ID: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E0CEB82@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> > -----Original Message----- > From: David Silberstein [mailto:davids at kithrup.com] > > All this talk of dreams reminds me - has anyone else had > dreams of stuff that took place in Dragaera? I have been told that I have weird dreams. After reading Phoenix (where he goes to the Empire on the Jhereg and then runs for his life), I dreamed that I was hiding out in a trailer home and the Jhereg were after me. I had to stay away from windows, and was getting very very frustrated at people who kept unlocking or even opening the doors. I finally woke up, heart pounding, etc. It probably means something but I don't care to speculate what. Usually my nightmares have something to do with graduate school. Speaking of which, I'm up to Issola again, and found myself identifying with Verra for a change, because of her role as a servant in the Jenoine laboratory. Now that's a pleasant thought: ousting the faculty & taking control of the lab. I wonder if the mice would set me up as a god. But I think faculty are tougher and more indestructable than Jenoine. Rachel From egyptianbloom at yahoo.com Fri Oct 18 08:20:08 2002 From: egyptianbloom at yahoo.com (Karin Bassett) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 08:20:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ In-Reply-To: <15791.38877.8321.143928@eris.io.com> Message-ID: <20021018152008.17574.qmail@web21302.mail.yahoo.com> Vlad could be played by the lovely Johnny Depp Morollan by patrick Stewart(purrrrr...) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From mneme at io.com Fri Oct 18 08:39:18 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 10:39:18 -0500 Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ In-Reply-To: <20021018152008.17574.qmail@web21302.mail.yahoo.com> References: <15791.38877.8321.143928@eris.io.com> <20021018152008.17574.qmail@web21302.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <15792.11046.472892.739008@fnord.io.com> Karin Bassett writes: >Morollan by patrick Stewart(purrrrr...) Hmm. I've always thought of Morollan as a bit more solid than that...but it could work, I guess. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From rick at 404.978.org Fri Oct 18 08:46:08 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 11:46:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ In-Reply-To: <15792.11046.472892.739008@fnord.io.com> References: <15791.38877.8321.143928@eris.io.com> <20021018152008.17574.qmail@web21302.mail.yahoo.com> <15792.11046.472892.739008@fnord.io.com> Message-ID: <1458.192.168.1.1.1034955968.squirrel@404.978.org> Joshua Kronengold said: > Karin Bassett writes: >>Morollan by patrick Stewart(purrrrr...) > > Hmm. I've always thought of Morollan as a bit more solid than > that...but it could work, I guess. Yes, I'm adding fuel to the fire... but who do Oded Fehr and Lani Tupu get to play? I'm a slightly bent male hetero, and even *I* think they're required casting. ;) -Rick From RuhlenR at missouri.edu Fri Oct 18 08:51:50 2002 From: RuhlenR at missouri.edu (Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student)) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 10:51:50 -0500 Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ Message-ID: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E0CEB83@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> > Joshua Kronengold said: > > Karin Bassett writes: > >>Morollan by patrick Stewart(purrrrr...) > > > > Hmm. I've always thought of Morollan as a bit more solid than > > that...but it could work, I guess. Morollan is supposed to be young, too. I'd rather have Antonio Banderas as Morollan, and Hugh Grant as Kragar. I vote Madonna for Sethra Lavode. How about Rosie O'Donnell for Rocza's voice, and Eddie Murphy as Loiosh? *ducks as things are thrown at me* Rachel From holden at salome.uchicago.edu Fri Oct 18 08:52:46 2002 From: holden at salome.uchicago.edu (Brad) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 10:52:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Dream of Dragaera In-Reply-To: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E0CEB82@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> (RuhlenR@missouri.edu) References: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E0CEB82@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: <200210181552.g9IFqkc21794@salome.uchicago.edu> >From: "Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student)" > >It probably means something but I don't care to speculate what. Usually >my nightmares have something to do with graduate school. Speaking of >which, I'm up to Issola again, and found myself identifying with Verra >for a change, because of her role as a servant in the Jenoine >laboratory. Now that's a pleasant thought: ousting the faculty & taking >control of the lab. I wonder if the mice would set me up as a god. But >I think faculty are tougher and more indestructable than Jenoine. > The more I think about this, the funnier it is. I just have these vivid images of a faculty meeting being stormed by white lab rats led by a bunch of graduate students (armed with flasks which are ideally suited for conking the pasty, bald heads of your average tenured lint). brad From casey at trinityhartford.org Fri Oct 18 09:05:09 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:05:09 -0400 Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ In-Reply-To: <1458.192.168.1.1.1034955968.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: Rick Castello wrote: > Yes, I'm adding fuel to the fire... but who do Oded Fehr > and Lani Tupu get to play? Oded Fehr would make a great Glowbug. Never heard of Tupu. No pics on imdb. Ruhlen, Rachel Louise wrote: > How about Rosie O'Donnell for Rocza's voice, and Eddie Murphy as Loiosh? > *ducks as things are thrown at me* Rocza doesn't say much, but I'll go along with it. Eddie would work for me, too. My first thought had been Billy Crystal. From rick at 404.978.org Fri Oct 18 09:09:48 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:09:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ In-Reply-To: References: <1458.192.168.1.1.1034955968.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: <1665.192.168.1.1.1034957388.squirrel@404.978.org> Casey Rousseau said: > Rick Castello wrote: >> Yes, I'm adding fuel to the fire... but who do Oded Fehr >> and Lani Tupu get to play? > > Oded Fehr would make a great Glowbug. > > Never heard of Tupu. No pics on imdb. Lani Tupu played Peacekeeper Captain Bialar Crais (and the voice of Moya) on Farscape. TV Tome has got him: http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/PersonDetail/personid-9640 More pics here: (URL from TV Tome site) http://www.angelfire.com/tv/crais/pics.html Perhaps one of the local area bosses... -Rick From righel at msn.com Fri Oct 18 10:34:24 2002 From: righel at msn.com (Rosemary Ighel) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:34:24 -0500 Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ References: <1458.192.168.1.1.1034955968.squirrel@404.978.org> <1665.192.168.1.1.1034957388.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: <016401c276cc$9a47d500$47440aa9@mmm.com> From: "Rick Castello" > Yes, I'm adding fuel to the fire... but who do Oded Fehr > and Lani Tupu get to play? > > I'm a slightly bent male hetero, and even *I* think they're > required casting. ;) Dare I suggest Oded as Vlad? Tupu as another area boss. Owen Wilson as Daymar, of course.... I would not mind Reese Witherspoon as Aliera, either. R. From rick at 404.978.org Fri Oct 18 11:49:40 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:49:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ In-Reply-To: <016401c276cc$9a47d500$47440aa9@mmm.com> References: <1458.192.168.1.1.1034955968.squirrel@404.978.org> <1665.192.168.1.1.1034957388.squirrel@404.978.org> <016401c276cc$9a47d500$47440aa9@mmm.com> Message-ID: <2132.192.168.1.1.1034966980.squirrel@404.978.org> Rosemary Ighel said: > From: "Rick Castello" > >> Yes, I'm adding fuel to the fire... but who do Oded Fehr >> and Lani Tupu get to play? >> >> I'm a slightly bent male hetero, and even *I* think they're >> required casting. ;) > > Dare I suggest Oded as Vlad? Tupu as another area boss. Owen Wilson as > Daymar, of course.... > > I would not mind Reese Witherspoon as Aliera, either. I could see Oded as Vlad... or even Morrolan, really. Strong jaw, strong will, cool accent, which I believe both should have a slight hint of somewhere... :) -Rick From mneme at io.com Fri Oct 18 12:22:20 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:22:20 -0500 Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ In-Reply-To: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E0CEB83@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> References: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E0CEB83@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: <15792.24428.122925.271287@fnord.io.com> Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student) writes: >> Joshua Kronengold said: >> > Karin Bassett writes: >> >>Morollan by patrick Stewart(purrrrr...) >> > Hmm. I've always thought of Morollan as a bit more solid than >> > that...but it could work, I guess. >Morollan is supposed to be young, too. As Dragaerans go, anyway. >I'd rather have Antonio Banderas as Morollan, and Hugh Grant as >Kragar. Hugh Grant might actually make a decent Vlad, but I'm not sure who I'd actually want as Kragar. >I vote Madonna for Sethra Lavode. Eeek! No! I mean, she's got the strenght of character, but...no! >How about Rosie O'Donnell for Rocza's voice, and Eddie Murphy as Loiosh? >*ducks as things are thrown at me* -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From thefr0g at hotmail.com Fri Oct 18 15:38:08 2002 From: thefr0g at hotmail.com (The Fr0g) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 17:38:08 -0500 Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ Message-ID: >Vlad: Dennis Leary >Cawti: Katie Holmes (no reason for this, I'm just obsessed) >Aliera: Morollan: Al Pacino (CGed to be much taller) >Sethra: Angelica Houston Kragar: Steve Buscemi >Loish (voice): Bruce Campbell >Kiera: Catherine Zeta Jones Norathar: >Noish-Pa: Anthony Quinn if he was still alive >The Demon: >Daymar: Henry Rollins (no idea why, just sounds cool) >Mellar/Leareth: Danny Trejo >Lady Teldra: Kate Hudson My casting picks have nothing to do with descriptions given in the books, my head chooses an image of a person and won't let go no matter how many times I read the author's description. _________________________________________________________________ Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp From FelixEisen at aol.com Fri Oct 18 22:46:27 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 01:46:27 EDT Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ Message-ID: <1ab.a8874a3.2ae24bb3@aol.com> rick at 404.978.org writes: > Lani Tupu played Peacekeeper Captain Bialar Crais (and the > voice of Moya) on Farscape. Cancel all other applicants for Morollan; we have a winner. Considering how well Tupu plays Crais, how can anyone who's ever seen Farscape and read Brust even THINK of anyone else for the Lord of Castle Black? He'd have to shave -- a pity -- but he's got everything else right on the money. ... okay, I'd maybe settle for having him play Vlad, too. But he's really made for Morollan. And who's Oded Fehr again, the main character on that new detective show? Speaking of detective shows, you know who I'd get as Noish-Pa? Peter Faulk, aka Columbo. Sethra ... mmmm. Angelica Houston has enough zing to her to do it properly; she did Morticia well enough. I don't recall if the hair is right, though. Knightmarshall Felix Surnamed Eisen, or "Iron Felix" Hand of Morr, The Order of Bones From righel at msn.com Sat Oct 19 05:36:08 2002 From: righel at msn.com (Rosemary Ighel) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 07:36:08 -0500 Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dennis Leary as the voice of Loiosh makes me giggle ("Teckla flavored teckla."). I like Angelica Houston as Sethra and Peter Boyle in his prime as Kragar. Buscemi would make a good Melestav. Felix - Oded Fehr was in the Mummy, he was the dashing tattooed Arab in the black robes, Ardeth Bey. He's on Presidio Med these days, if you catch it before it's cancelled. IMDB has a picture. http://us.imdb.com/Name?Fehr,+Oded R. -----Original Message----- From: The Fr0g [mailto:thefr0g at hotmail.com] >Vlad: Dennis Leary >Cawti: Katie Holmes (no reason for this, I'm just obsessed) >Aliera: Morollan: Al Pacino (CGed to be much taller) >Sethra: Angelica Houston Kragar: Steve Buscemi >Loish (voice): Bruce Campbell >Kiera: Catherine Zeta Jones Norathar: >Noish-Pa: Anthony Quinn if he was still alive >The Demon: >Daymar: Henry Rollins (no idea why, just sounds cool) >Mellar/Leareth: Danny Trejo >Lady Teldra: Kate Hudson From zaphod at charter.net Sat Oct 19 07:54:23 2002 From: zaphod at charter.net (Greg Schwartz) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 10:54:23 -0400 Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ References: Message-ID: <001d01c2777f$69b95220$6501a8c0@zaphod> I'll dip into Tombstone for my casting call.. Billy Zane as Vlad, and Val Kilmer as Daymar. Is he cuddly enough? As for Aliera, when I think small, and beautiful, but still aggressive, Gwen Stefani of No Doubt pops into my mind. I've no idea if she has any acting talent though. Excuses for Gwen entering my mind are often flimsy things. I'll second Dennis Leary as the voice of Loiosh, or propose the alternate Jason Alexander. I can hear either of them saying *two* dead teckla on your pillow! -Greg Schwartz From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Sat Oct 19 07:57:11 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 09:57:11 -0500 Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ References: Message-ID: Casey Rousseau wrote: > Rick Castello wrote: >> Yes, I'm adding fuel to the fire... but who do Oded Fehr >> and Lani Tupu get to play? > > Oded Fehr would make a great Glowbug. > > Never heard of Tupu. No pics on imdb. > > Ruhlen, Rachel Louise wrote: >> How about Rosie O'Donnell for Rocza's voice, and Eddie Murphy as >> Loiosh? *ducks as things are thrown at me* > > Rocza doesn't say much, but I'll go along with it. Eddie would work > for me, too. My first thought had been Billy Crystal. Eddie Murphy isn'y sarcastic enough rather his tone doesn't depict that at least as a type cast, though I'm sure he'd be capable. If you want to see him playing a different cold blooded creature go watch Mulan. I think of Loiosh as a toned down Gilbert Gottfried. (Also ducks to avoid thrown objects) From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Sat Oct 19 16:16:27 2002 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 16:16:27 -0700 Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ Message-ID: <200210191616.AA856752434@amish2000.com> Greg Schwartz was dead on the money when he wrote: >I'll dip into Tombstone for my casting call.. > >Billy Zane as Vlad, Mwai! ... What a strangely cute typo. It was meant to be "wai." I think I'll keep it. Mwai, Billy-Zane-Vlad! >and Val Kilmer as Daymar. Is he cuddly enough? MOST DEFINITELY. In fact I think he's TOO cuddly; if Val Kilmer's amazing cuddliness were added to Daymar's SUPREME cuddliness, I might explode from the imperativeness of glomping him TO BITS. He does have the sharp Hawkish features, though. ... Judging by Morrolan and Aliera's reactions to being called "cute," they'd likely implode from outrage at being glomped. >As for Aliera, when I think small, and beautiful, but still aggressive, Gwen >Stefani of No Doubt pops into my mind. PING. Oooh, that _is_ a good one. She'd have to stop bleaching her hair and dye it golden, though, and that might make her pout. >I've no idea if she has any acting >talent though. She's got more than Reese Witherspoon. >I'll second Dennis Leary as the voice of Loiosh, or propose the alternate >Jason Alexander. I can hear either of them saying *two* dead teckla on your >pillow! ... Jason Alexander. How odd. And to think that I was going to nominate him as Adron. MJ, with a lollipop From mam at theworld.com Sat Oct 19 19:32:11 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 22:32:11 -0400 Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ In-Reply-To: <20021018050252.GF615@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Oct 2002, Matthew Hunter wrote: #No offense, but this is what I hate about casting threads. They #never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, end. I don't get anything out of them. I'm going to delete all messages on this subject, unread. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Sat Oct 19 19:34:41 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 22:34:41 -0400 Subject: Dream of Dragaera In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, David Silberstein wrote: # He also wrote (or read) a letter which mentioned #Aliera taking up witchcraft, [...] #and she might want to have an alternative to Elder Sorcery (besides #powerlessness) available if such a thing happens again. And we all know how much Aliera loves being powerless, or anything short (sorry, milady!) of being in command of a situation. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mam at theworld.com Sat Oct 19 19:35:34 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 22:35:34 -0400 Subject: Dream of Dragaera In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, Gametech wrote: #Do vegetables have souls? Song: Carrot Juice Is Murder. -- Mark A. Mandel From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Sat Oct 19 22:18:05 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 22:18:05 -0700 Subject: Loraan & Blackwand In-Reply-To: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E0CEB7F@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> References: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E0CEB7F@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: <20021020051805.GA29903@ofb.net> On Wed, Oct 16, 2002 at 06:09:04PM -0500, Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student) wrote: > kill Loraan with Blackwand. Vlad is knocked over, and when he gets back > up, he sees Loraan lying on the floor with a wound, and Morollan > standing over him with bloody Blackwand. Here are 3 of the many > 2) Morollan stabbed Loraan with Blackwand right after he already died > (either by Morollan's non-Blackwand carrying hand or by someone else's > hand). Morganti & Great Weapons only take the soul of a living person. 2a) Vlad's psi-imbued dagger killed Loraan. Heh. -xx- Damien X-) From egyptianbloom at yahoo.com Sat Oct 19 23:51:04 2002 From: egyptianbloom at yahoo.com (Karin Bassett) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 23:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021020065104.20956.qmail@web21304.mail.yahoo.com> Don't be so grumpy, I signed up just so I could read funny little sh*t like this. ;> __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From vikipants at hotmail.com Sun Oct 20 04:16:21 2002 From: vikipants at hotmail.com (Rob Bokkon) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 06:16:21 -0500 Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ Message-ID: Ever since I've become a /Sopranos/ fan, I can't help but imagine James Gandolfini as the voice of Loiosh. From vikipants at hotmail.com Sun Oct 20 04:23:33 2002 From: vikipants at hotmail.com (Rob Bokkon) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 06:23:33 -0500 Subject: Casting the Khaavren Romances Message-ID: Here goes another one: I think Vincent Perez would be a fabulous Khaavren (anyone who's seen /Queen Margot/ should agree...). That Corbett fellow from /Sex and the City/ and /Northern Exposure/ would be a fine Aerich. He has integrity. Jolene Blaylock from /Enterprise/ for Tazendra. I'm a little vague on Pel, he's not anyone in particular in my imagination. Kyle Maclachlan would be great as Adron. Isabelle Adjani for Daro. Leo diCaprio for Tortaalik, and John Malkovich (with a wig, natch) for Rollondar e'Drien. Uma Thurman as Illista. Jonathan Rhys-Myers as Uttrik. Sian Phillips for Seodra. Jennifer Connely wouldn't be bad as Lytra e'Tenith. Johnny Depp as Count Shaltre. Christopher Plummer as G'aereth. Gabriel Byrne as Greycat/ Lord Garland. My 2c, feel free to disagree (or fill in the huge gaps I've left). From dar at horusinc.com Sun Oct 20 07:04:10 2002 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 09:04:10 -0500 Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ In-Reply-To: <20021020065104.20956.qmail@web21304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Don't be so grumpy, I signed up just so I could read > funny little sh*t like this. ;> Yes, that is the wonder of email. Deleting is easy, and you can even set up a junkfile/sorter for a thread if you like... David From Gaertk at aol.com Sun Oct 20 08:50:36 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 11:50:36 -0400 Subject: Dream of Dragaera Message-ID: <3E42C8DC.637C9796.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated 10/19/2002 9:35:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, Mark A Mandel writes: >On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, Gametech wrote: > >#Do vegetables have souls? > >Song: Carrot Juice Is Murder. I've heard one whose title may be "Don't Slay that Potato". --KG From mneme at io.com Sun Oct 20 18:21:31 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 20:21:31 -0500 Subject: Dream of Dragaera In-Reply-To: <3E42C8DC.637C9796.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <3E42C8DC.637C9796.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <15795.22171.269814.607940@eris.io.com> Gaertk at aol.com writes: >In a message dated 10/19/2002 9:35:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, Mark A Mandel writes: >>On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, Gametech wrote: >>#Do vegetables have souls? >>Song: Carrot Juice Is Murder. >I've heard one whose title may be "Don't Slay that Potato". (from Carrot Juice is Murder): How low do we have as people to stoop, Making young broccoli bleed in the soup? Untie your beans, uncage your tomatoes, Let cabbage plants free, don't mash that potato! :) -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Sun Oct 20 21:42:47 2002 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 21:42:47 -0700 Subject: Casting the Khaavren Romances Message-ID: <200210202142.AA97518140@amish2000.com> "Rob Bokkon" announced that the sleeper had awakened when he wrote: >Here goes another one: >I think Vincent Perez would be a fabulous Khaavren (anyone who's seen /Queen Margot/ should agree...). .. Okay. I think I'm with you on this. He's sufficiently Tiassa- ish. >I'm a little vague on Pel, he's not anyone in particular in my imagination. Kenneth Branagh. >Kyle Maclachlan would be great as Adron. OH COME _ON_, would *Adron e'Kieron* go around yelling "THE SPICE MUST FLOW"? Counterproposal: Christopher Walken. >Isabelle Adjani for Daro. Leo diCaprio for Tortaalik, ... ... ... Leo as Tortaalik. HA! YAY! YES! >and John Malkovich (with a wig, natch) for Rollondar e'Drien. But of course. Malkovich is the Dragoniest person I can _think_ of. >Johnny Depp as Count Shaltre. Yes, but then Aerich would be (justifiably) mean to him, and then I'd be sad. I _hate_ it when bad things happen to (people) Johny Depp (is playing). MJ, sleepy From davids at kithrup.com Sun Oct 20 22:57:48 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 22:57:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pictures Message-ID: Browsing the web, I found the following: http://www.godlike.com/~lucifer/dramatis/morrolan.shtml Does that look like the Lord of Castle Black? I think it's pretty close, except for the sword - I think Blackwand is a lot longer, and has a simpler guard. But maybe it's not Blackwand. I like the damascene patterns on the boots. And the long, thin face looks right. How about this one? While I like what he's wearing, the face looks kinda bland. http://members.limitless.org/~morpheum/mem.jpg Er. Is this how a jhereg should look? I don't like the way the scales stick up. http://members.limitless.org/~morpheum/jhereg.jpg From nytemuse at auros.org Sun Oct 20 23:11:14 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 23:11:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pictures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Oct 2002, David Silberstein wrote: > Er. Is this how a jhereg should look? I don't like the way the > scales stick up. > http://members.limitless.org/~morpheum/jhereg.jpg Um, I was always under the impression that a jhereg should like like this: http://www.crowfire.com/images/brust.gif ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From davids at kithrup.com Sun Oct 20 23:47:24 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 23:47:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pictures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Oct 2002, Nytemuse wrote: >On Sun, 20 Oct 2002, David Silberstein wrote: >> Er. Is this how a jhereg should look? I don't like the way the >> scales stick up. >> http://members.limitless.org/~morpheum/jhereg.jpg > >Um, I was always under the impression that a jhereg should like like this: >http://www.crowfire.com/images/brust.gif > I believe Steve has stated that none of the cover artists' renditions were what he had in mind - frex, the jhereg's head is supposed to be more snakelike (which is what I think the artist that I linked to was trying to do). <*greps & googles...*> Here's the cite: http://dragaera.info/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?1:msp:174:gknlagjinepdjbcnnkjc ] As I've said before, I think the covers are wonderful, but neither ] Vlad nor Loiosh look in the least the way I envision them. [...] ] (In my own vision of Loiosh, he has two legs, is smaller, smoother, ] his head is more snakelike, and his wings more batlike). See also: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=YzL61.1260$E34.5680889 at ptah.visi.com (While searching for cites, I turned this up, which is also amusing): http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=QYn22.1765$i63.6005491 at ptah.visi.com ] As a matter of fact, Loiosh is a transliteration of the ] Hungarian Lajos, which was the name of a dog my father had as a ] child. And the bio is wrong--we changed the parrot's name to Lojo ] upon discovering that she wasn't quite as masculine as we had first ] thought. So now we know how Loiosh's name should be spelled in Fenario. :-) From rone at ennui.org Mon Oct 21 11:22:07 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:22:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pictures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021021182207.2E84926E2A@boredom.ennui.org> David Silberstein writes: Browsing the web, I found the following: http://www.godlike.com/~lucifer/dramatis/morrolan.shtml Ah, thanks for finding that for me. I'd lost it and couldn't find it again. That whole site is pretty cool, especially the part about swordplay. I also wonder where he found the bits about House colors. rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From rone at ennui.org Mon Oct 21 12:12:34 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 12:12:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Conjecture report Message-ID: <20021021191234.C04CF26E2B@boredom.ennui.org> It was loads of fun. The panels were very interesting, even if they strayed from the topic at moments (but it seems that is the nature of the beast). Steve is a Swell and Fun Guy, and i don't mean Swell because he complained that his ego was swelling. rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From Gaertk at aol.com Mon Oct 21 12:30:38 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:30:38 -0400 Subject: OT: Silly Food Songs Message-ID: <11A8B331.32C5BBC7.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated 10/20/2002 8:21:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, Joshua Kronengold writes: > Gaertk at aol.com writes: >> In a message dated 10/19/2002 9:35:34 PM Eastern Standard >> Time, Mark A Mandel writes: >>> Song: Carrot Juice Is Murder. >> I've heard one whose title may be "Don't Slay that >> Potato". > > (from Carrot Juice is Murder): > > How low do we have as people to stoop, > Making young broccoli bleed in the soup? > Untie your beans, uncage your tomatoes, > Let cabbage plants free, don't mash that potato! Similar, but not the song I was thinking of. IIRC, here's the refrain of the one I'm thinking of: :Oh, no, don't slay that potato, let us be merciful please! :[maybe a line ending in "cheese"] :Don't fry it or (shake?) it, for God's sake don't bake it! :Don't shed the poor blood, of that poor helpless spud, :It's the worst kind of thing you could do. :Oh, no, don't slay that potato, what never done nothin to you. Does Mr. Brust have any favorite food songs he wants to share with us? --KG From lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com Mon Oct 21 14:43:35 2002 From: lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com (Lowki Liesmith) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 17:43:35 -0400 Subject: Casting the Khaavren Romances Message-ID: I think jhonny depp would play a good khaavren, but then again I also said a few months ago that he would make a good vlad. he is just such a great actor. >From: "M J" >Reply-To: >To: >Subject: Re: Casting the Khaavren Romances >Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 21:42:47 -0700 > > >"Rob Bokkon" announced that the sleeper had awakened when he wrote: > > >Here goes another one: > >I think Vincent Perez would be a fabulous Khaavren (anyone who's >seen /Queen Margot/ should agree...). > >.. Okay. I think I'm with you on this. He's sufficiently Tiassa- >ish. > > >I'm a little vague on Pel, he's not anyone in particular in my >imagination. > > Kenneth Branagh. > > >Kyle Maclachlan would be great as Adron. > >OH COME _ON_, would *Adron e'Kieron* go around yelling "THE SPICE >MUST FLOW"? > >Counterproposal: Christopher Walken. > > >Isabelle Adjani for Daro. Leo diCaprio for Tortaalik, > >... ... ... > >Leo as Tortaalik. > >HA! YAY! YES! > > >and John Malkovich (with a wig, natch) for Rollondar e'Drien. > >But of course. Malkovich is the Dragoniest person I can _think_ >of. > > >Johnny Depp as Count Shaltre. > >Yes, but then Aerich would be (justifiably) mean to him, and then >I'd be sad. I _hate_ it when bad things happen to (people) Johny >Depp (is playing). > >MJ, >sleepy _________________________________________________________________ Surf the Web without missing calls!?Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp From mam at theworld.com Mon Oct 21 16:32:56 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 19:32:56 -0400 Subject: OT: Silly Food Songs In-Reply-To: <11A8B331.32C5BBC7.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: #Similar, but not the song I was thinking of. IIRC, here's #the refrain of the one I'm thinking of: # #:Oh, no, don't slay that potato, let us be merciful please! #:[maybe a line ending in "cheese"] #:Don't fry it or (shake?) it, for God's sake don't bake it! #:Don't shed the poor blood, of that poor helpless spud, #:It's the worst kind of thing you could do. #:Oh, no, don't slay that potato, what never done nothin to you. It's by Tom Paxton. See http://www.geocities.com/willboyne/nosurrender/DontSlay.html -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname http://world.std.com/~mam/filk.html From davids at kithrup.com Mon Oct 21 18:52:35 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 18:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pictures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Oct 2002, David Silberstein wrote: >Browsing the web, I found the following: [shnippity] >Er. Is this how a jhereg should look? I don't like the way the >scales stick up. > http://members.limitless.org/~morpheum/jhereg.jpg > It looks like the artist I referenced above is aware of problems with how the jhereg she made looks (in terms of accuracy, that is - as others commented, it does look like an interesting sort of reptile): http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/d/a/danisylv/jhereg.jpg.html She's also done a couple more Dragaera characters (well, not exactly, but to say more would be a spoiler :-) ): http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/d/a/danisylv/kiera.jpg.html http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/d/a/danisylv/sethra.jpg.html From davids at kithrup.com Mon Oct 21 19:23:02 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 19:23:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Google hits on "jhereg" Message-ID: Some of the weirder stuff: http://www.leyweb.net/jhereg/ http://tsamaris.com/view.php?Links If you want to run a campaign in Dragaera, why not just do so, and give acknowledgements to SKZB? If you're going to make stuff up, why not make up your own names (& poetry)? I wouldn't name a kid "Jhereg" either. That's just wrong... http://www.angelfire.com/or3/tinyzoo/Jhereg/Jheregs.htm http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Bluffs/9933/jhereg.htm http://tinyzoo.50megs.com/HS4Bush/Bush2000.html Although I suppose it's a good name for a knife: http://pub42.ezboard.com/fcustomknifedirectoryforumfrm36.showMessage?topicID=148.topic The Spanish titles are amusing: http://www.cyberdark.net/autores.php3?cod=748 Jhereg. Intriga en el Castillo Negro Yendi. Duelo de rufianes Teckla. Revuelta en Adrilankha La Guardia F?nix From nytemuse at auros.org Mon Oct 21 21:11:18 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 21:11:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Google hits on "jhereg" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Oct 2002, David Silberstein wrote: > Some of the weirder stuff: > > http://www.leyweb.net/jhereg/ > http://tsamaris.com/view.php?Links > > If you want to run a campaign in Dragaera, why not just do so, and > give acknowledgements to SKZB? If you're going to make stuff up, why > not make up your own names (& poetry)? > > I wouldn't name a kid "Jhereg" either. That's just wrong... > > http://www.angelfire.com/or3/tinyzoo/Jhereg/Jheregs.htm > http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Bluffs/9933/jhereg.htm > http://tinyzoo.50megs.com/HS4Bush/Bush2000.html This kind of leads me to wonder if "jhereg" perhaps means something outside of Brust's books. Anyone know? ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From irtheweasel at hotmail.com Tue Oct 22 01:08:24 2002 From: irtheweasel at hotmail.com (Wes) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 01:08:24 -0700 Subject: Question for Steve re: Devera Message-ID: Is Devera like your muse? Is that why she seems to show up in virtually all of your novels even outside of the Dragaerian series? Wes From FelixEisen at aol.com Tue Oct 22 01:45:48 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 04:45:48 EDT Subject: Google hits on "jhereg" Message-ID: <115.1964c6cd.2ae66a3c@aol.com> davids at kithrup.com writes: > I wouldn't name a kid "Jhereg" either. That's just wrong... Yeah, well, consider the names of the rest of the kids. Clearly the parents are a bit ... under the influence. Of what (or whom) I have no idea... Knightmarshall Felix Surnamed Eisen, or "Iron Felix" Hand of Morr, The Order of Bones From davids at kithrup.com Tue Oct 22 16:16:47 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 16:16:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pictures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Some more Dragaera art - Dzur Mountain & a Phoenix: http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/k/a/kathyg/dzur96.jpg.html http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/k/a/kathyg/phoenixcolor96.jpg.html And it appears that I have found Kathana e'Marish'Chala - the artist's name is Katherine J. Grantham, and as she says here: http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/k/a/kathyg/kathyg.html "I was somewhat active in SF fandom and art for many years under my maiden name Marschall before burning out and getting married. You'll see some of my older art signed 'Marschall.'" (Also, last night I noticed that it was Kathy Marschall who did the map of Fenario in "Brokedown Palace") She doesn't have a picture of a wounded dragon protecting her young (or at least, not on this website), but she does have this: http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/k/a/kathyg/dragoneye.jpg.html Stephen Hickman's home page has a nice image of the cover of "Dragon": http://www.stephenhickman.com/index1.html Which is cool, even if it is inaccurate. :-) From egyptianbloom at yahoo.com Tue Oct 22 16:35:28 2002 From: egyptianbloom at yahoo.com (Karin Bassett) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 16:35:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Question for Steve re: Devera In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021022233528.80959.qmail@web21304.mail.yahoo.com> --- Wes wrote: > Is Devera like your muse? Is that why she seems to > show up in virtually all of your novels even outside > of the Dragaerian series? > > Wes > > Maybe she's more like his succubus? __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From irtheweasel at hotmail.com Tue Oct 22 16:42:42 2002 From: irtheweasel at hotmail.com (Wes) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 16:42:42 -0700 Subject: Question for Steve re: Devera Message-ID: hmm...a 9 or 10 yo, little brown-eyed succubus...kinky. Wes ---------------------------------------------------------------- Please "Help Wes" go to college! Visit his website by clicking here Send Wes To College From egyptianbloom at yahoo.com Tue Oct 22 22:17:06 2002 From: egyptianbloom at yahoo.com (Karin Bassett) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:17:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Question for Steve re: Devera In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021023051706.46202.qmail@web21306.mail.yahoo.com> Well demons come in all sizes, just the fact that she is female should make her sufficient. Plus he could be changing her charactoristics for the books....out of fear of her catching him...;) --- Wes wrote: > hmm...a 9 or 10 yo, little brown-eyed > succubus...kinky. > Wes > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Please "Help Wes" go to college! > > Visit his website by clicking here Send Wes To > College > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Oct 22 22:40:39 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:40:39 -0700 Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ In-Reply-To: <1ab.a8874a3.2ae24bb3@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021022223748.02dcbd20@localhost> At 01:46 AM 10/19/2002 -0400, FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: > >Speaking of detective shows, you know who I'd get as Noish-Pa? Peter Faulk, >aka Columbo. Oh my God! He'd be *perfect*! Okay, as long I've said this, I'll give the few picks I have: Vlad: Bruce Willis. (Yeah, yeah. Shut up. He can do action, and he has brilliant comic timing. Check out Hudson Hawk) Voice of Loiosh: Robin Williams. Cawti: Uh...that chic who played Josie Marcus in that horrid Wyatt Earp movie starring Kevin Costner. Sethra Lavode: Susan Sarandon. I don't care what you've seen her in, she can pull it off. She can pull off any role she's given. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Oct 22 22:42:51 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:42:51 -0700 Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ In-Reply-To: <001d01c2777f$69b95220$6501a8c0@zaphod> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021022224203.02dc9080@localhost> At 10:54 AM 10/19/2002 -0400, Greg Schwartz wrote: >I'll dip into Tombstone for my casting call.. > >Billy Zane as Vlad, and Val Kilmer as Daymar. Is he cuddly enough? I knew it was a mistake for me to get into this. No, Val Kilmer is Morrolan. Daymar is played by Steven Wright. Okay...I think I'm done now. From calianng_graves at yahoo.com Tue Oct 22 22:51:09 2002 From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021022223748.02dcbd20@localhost> Message-ID: <20021023055109.30217.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> Hhhmmm, I think Geena Davis would make a PERFECT Cawti. She played in "Long Kiss Goodnight" with Samuel Jackson and in the Pirate flick "Cut-throat Island". She ciould pull off Cawti in a heatbeat. Caliann *Owned and Operated by the Grand Cheese Poohbah of the Universe* Steven Brust wrote:At 01:46 AM 10/19/2002 -0400, FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: > >Speaking of detective shows, you know who I'd get as Noish-Pa? Peter Faulk, >aka Columbo. Oh my God! He'd be *perfect*! Okay, as long I've said this, I'll give the few picks I have: Vlad: Bruce Willis. (Yeah, yeah. Shut up. He can do action, and he has brilliant comic timing. Check out Hudson Hawk) Voice of Loiosh: Robin Williams. Cawti: Uh...that chic who played Josie Marcus in that horrid Wyatt Earp movie starring Kevin Costner. Sethra Lavode: Susan Sarandon. I don't care what you've seen her in, she can pull it off. She can pull off any role she's given. "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site From kristoph at gci.net Wed Oct 23 00:11:42 2002 From: kristoph at gci.net (Kristoph) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 23:11:42 -0800 Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ Message-ID: Vlad: Bruce Willis. (Yeah, yeah. Shut up. He can do action, and he has brilliant comic timing. Check out Hudson Hawk) Agree to all of the above, but can we give the man some hair! He needs it more than I do. From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Wed Oct 23 12:07:23 2002 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:07:23 -0700 Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ Message-ID: <200210231207.AA39059948@amish2000.com> >At 10:54 AM 10/19/2002 -0400, Greg Schwartz wrote: >>I'll dip into Tombstone for my casting call.. >> >>Billy Zane as Vlad, and Val Kilmer as Daymar. Is he cuddly enough? > >I knew it was a mistake for me to get into this. > >No, Val Kilmer is Morrolan. ... I now declare Morrolan "perfect". Forever. >Daymar is played by Steven Wright. STEVEN WRIGHT. DAYMAR. CUDDLINESS EXPLOSION. For Daymar's sake, I'd damn well better not get an alternate- dimension-gate thing, because I would glomp him to pieces. STEVEN WRIGHT HAWKLORD DAYMAR. Oh, my lord. I now have the strength to face midterms. DAYMAR WRIGHT. BEST MENTAL IMAGE EVAR. FLAWLESS VICTORY. (... "Morrolan Kombat." Huh.) MJ, blissful ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ ~ A Pirate Looks At Twenty ~ http://erythros.livejournal.com/ ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ From mam at theworld.com Wed Oct 23 09:47:36 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:47:36 -0400 Subject: Pictures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Oct 2002, David Silberstein wrote: #And it appears that I have found Kathana e'Marish'Chala - #the artist's name is Katherine J. Grantham, and as she says here: # # http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/k/a/kathyg/kathyg.html # # "I was somewhat active in SF fandom and art for many years under my # maiden name Marschall before burning out and getting married. # You'll see some of my older art signed 'Marschall.'" # #(Also, last night I noticed that it was Kathy Marschall who did the #map of Fenario in "Brokedown Palace") # #She doesn't have a picture of a wounded dragon protecting her young #(or at least, not on this website), but she does have this: # # http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/k/a/kathyg/dragoneye.jpg.html Excellent find! May I post this on my Cracks and Shards website? I am bcc-ing this to Ms. Graham and will not post without her permission as well. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From yhcrana13 at hotmail.com Wed Oct 23 10:08:14 2002 From: yhcrana13 at hotmail.com (A. Nonymous) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:08:14 -0500 Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ Message-ID: I'll definately cast my vote for Steven Wright. He's almost too perfect. Josh Collins The Guide is definitive. Reality is frequently inaccurate. (Douglas Adams - The Restaurant at the End of the Universe) yhcrana13 at hotmail.com >From: Steven Brust >To: "Greg Schwartz" , "Dragaera" > >Subject: Re: Casting _Jhereg_ >Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:42:51 -0700 > >At 10:54 AM 10/19/2002 -0400, Greg Schwartz wrote: >>I'll dip into Tombstone for my casting call.. >> >>Billy Zane as Vlad, and Val Kilmer as Daymar. Is he cuddly enough? > >I knew it was a mistake for me to get into this. > >No, Val Kilmer is Morrolan. Daymar is played by Steven Wright. > >Okay...I think I'm done now. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From calianng_graves at yahoo.com Wed Oct 23 18:16:25 2002 From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:16:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jhereg_Casting Message-ID: <20021024011625.52524.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> ************************************************************************************************ I have been thinking of Davis as Aliera. She's almost exactly the correct height, and a natural athlete (I understand her sport is archery). -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net ************************************************************************************************* I have to agree that she would make a terrific Aliera. Steve's actress for Cawti is Joanna Going, although I think she would make a good Aliera also. Perhaps the actress who played Niki in "point Blank" ( the off-shoot of the French film "La Femme Nikita") would have the proper look and attitude for Cawti. Caliann Owned and operated by the Grand Poohbah Cheese of the Universe "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site From FelixEisen at aol.com Thu Oct 24 00:48:29 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 03:48:29 EDT Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ Message-ID: <125.18cdaa83.2ae8ffcd@aol.com> skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > At 01:46 AM 10/19/2002 -0400, FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: > >Speaking of detective shows, you know who I'd get as Noish-Pa? Peter Faulk, > >aka Columbo. > Oh my God! He'd be *perfect*! There is something that goes *ping* in your heart when you hit on just the right person for a part -- and the author agrees with you. Steve, it was the bit he did as the Grandfather in 'The Princess Bride' that did it for you, wasn't it? I know that's what popped into -my- mind ... > Okay, as long I've said this, I'll give the few picks I have: > Vlad: Bruce Willis. (Yeah, yeah. Shut up. He can do action, and he has > brilliant comic timing. Check out Hudson Hawk) Despite what virtually everyone says about 'Hudson Hawk', I -liked- that movie. Especially keeping time to the songs. And yeah, I'd have to admit that Bruce would probably make a pretty good Vlad. > Voice of Loiosh: Robin Williams. > > Sethra Lavode: Susan Sarandon. I don't care what you've seen her in, she > can pull it off. She can pull off any role she's given. ... young enough, old enough, and those -eyes- ... okay, I'm sold. > No, Val Kilmer is Morrolan. Daymar is played by Steven Wright. Hmmm. I still think Lani Tupu would make a better Morrolan. He bears a greater sense of impending violence around him than Val Kilmer -- though that -may- just be the role of Peacekeeper Captain Crais. Of course, I have a character on a Pern-style MUSH named after Crais (C'rais, on brown Talynth), so I'm probably more than a mite biased. Steve, please tell me you watch Farscape every now and then. You -gotta- watch Farscape and see Crais, and determine whether or not he'd be the perfect Morrolan. Steven Wright as Daymar, on the other hand ... just the right amount of 'who, me?' and 'I don't care...' for the part. Wright would do an excellent job of showing the vast offhand power that Daymar pulls. You know, I'm almost surprised that Sethra & Co. didn't draw on Daymar during the big to-do against the Jenoine. They certainly know OF him ... but he is sort of a loose cannon. Knightmarshall Felix Surnamed Eisen, or "Iron Felix" Hand of Morr, The Order of Bones From feaelin at kemenel.org Thu Oct 24 06:43:31 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 08:43:31 -0500 Subject: Jhereg_Casting Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Caliann the Elf [mailto:calianng_graves at yahoo.com] > Sent: Wednesday, 2002 October 23 20:16 > To: Drageara List > Subject: Jhereg_Casting > Perhaps the actress who played Niki in "point Blank" ( the > off-shoot of the French film "La Femme Nikita") would have > the proper look and attitude for Cawti. Actually that was "Point of No Return" starring Bridget Fonda. :) Point Blank is something else entirely. :) From randomhonky at hotmail.com Thu Oct 24 07:32:56 2002 From: randomhonky at hotmail.com (T J) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 10:32:56 -0400 Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ Message-ID: Hmm, i cannot picture bruce willis as vlad. When i picture vlad i see smone a bit thinner and lively looking. Kinda like a dartagnan in all the really awful 3 musketeer movies. Actually, i think the perfect Vlad would be the main charachter from 'The Count of Monty Cristo'. I just saw that movie, and i thought he did an outstanding job. Thomas J >From: FelixEisen at aol.com >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: Casting _Jhereg_ >Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 03:48:29 EDT > >skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > > At 01:46 AM 10/19/2002 -0400, FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: > > >Speaking of detective shows, you know who I'd get as Noish-Pa? Peter >Faulk, > > >aka Columbo. > > Oh my God! He'd be *perfect*! > >There is something that goes *ping* in your heart when you hit on just the >right person for a part -- and the author agrees with you. Steve, it was >the >bit he did as the Grandfather in 'The Princess Bride' that did it for you, >wasn't it? I know that's what popped into -my- mind ... > > > Okay, as long I've said this, I'll give the few picks I have: > > Vlad: Bruce Willis. (Yeah, yeah. Shut up. He can do action, and he >has > > brilliant comic timing. Check out Hudson Hawk) > >Despite what virtually everyone says about 'Hudson Hawk', I -liked- that >movie. Especially keeping time to the songs. And yeah, I'd have to admit >that Bruce would probably make a pretty good Vlad. > > > Voice of Loiosh: Robin Williams. > > > > Sethra Lavode: Susan Sarandon. I don't care what you've seen her in, >she > > can pull it off. She can pull off any role she's given. > >... young enough, old enough, and those -eyes- ... okay, I'm sold. > > > No, Val Kilmer is Morrolan. Daymar is played by Steven Wright. > >Hmmm. I still think Lani Tupu would make a better Morrolan. He bears a >greater sense of impending violence around him than Val Kilmer -- though >that >-may- just be the role of Peacekeeper Captain Crais. Of course, I have a >character on a Pern-style MUSH named after Crais (C'rais, on brown >Talynth), >so I'm probably more than a mite biased. > >Steve, please tell me you watch Farscape every now and then. You -gotta- >watch Farscape and see Crais, and determine whether or not he'd be the >perfect Morrolan. > >Steven Wright as Daymar, on the other hand ... just the right amount of >'who, >me?' and 'I don't care...' for the part. Wright would do an excellent job >of >showing the vast offhand power that Daymar pulls. > >You know, I'm almost surprised that Sethra & Co. didn't draw on Daymar >during >the big to-do against the Jenoine. They certainly know OF him ... but he >is >sort of a loose cannon. > > >Knightmarshall Felix >Surnamed Eisen, or "Iron Felix" >Hand of Morr, The Order of Bones _________________________________________________________________ Get faster connections?-- switch to?MSN Internet Access! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From electrictwilight at hotmail.com Thu Oct 24 09:48:43 2002 From: electrictwilight at hotmail.com (H T) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 16:48:43 +0000 Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ Message-ID: This is my first time posting to this so I hope I did this correctly. __________________________________________ Let's see, since Vlad, Cawti, Morrolan, Daymar, etc., have had many good suggestions of who may play the roles, here are two other suggestions I thought of: Mellar - Gary Oldman I know he's not exactly who you (or I for that matter) would picture as Mellar, but he's so versatile in his roles and always plays such an excellent bad guy; I'm sure he could pull it off. Beside, I could see his character taking great pleasure in having deceived 3 houses and Morrolan. Another suggestion for Mellar, maybe Tim Curry? _______________________________________________ As far as directors, I saw that Quinten Terrantino was suggested. Another suggestion is Tim Burton. _________________________________________________________________ Get faster connections?-- switch to?MSN Internet Access! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Oct 24 09:58:44 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ Message-ID: <200210241658.g9OGwhC01235@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > This is my first time posting to this > so I hope I did this correctly. Welcome! (And Gary Oldman is great!!:) This is slightly off-topic, but a friend of mine made mention that, whenever she reads Phoenix Guards or 500YA, Paarfi's voice always sounds like John Cleese from Monty Python, and she can't get it out of her head... I thought that was funny. Haven't tried to imagine it while reading them, though. Don't think I could help but laugh all the way through them, and I do that enough anyway! :) ~Chris "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, son." - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm From bertowud at gator.net Thu Oct 24 10:06:28 2002 From: bertowud at gator.net (Robert Wood) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 13:06:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58245.209.208.44.34.1035479188.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> > Hmm, i cannot picture bruce willis as vlad. When i picture vlad i see > smone a bit thinner and lively looking. Kinda like a dartagnan in all > the really awful 3 musketeer movies. Actually, i think the perfect Vlad > would be the main charachter from 'The Count of Monty Cristo'. I just > saw that movie, and i thought he did an outstanding job. > Thomas J That would be Guy Pearce. He's been my pick to play Vlad for some time. He was also in Priscilla, Queen of the Desert. Loiosh I imagine having either Robin Williams' voice or Dennis Leary's. Robert From bertowud at gator.net Thu Oct 24 10:06:31 2002 From: bertowud at gator.net (Robert Wood) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 13:06:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59200.209.208.44.34.1035479191.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> > Hmm, i cannot picture bruce willis as vlad. When i picture vlad i see > smone a bit thinner and lively looking. Kinda like a dartagnan in all > the really awful 3 musketeer movies. Actually, i think the perfect Vlad > would be the main charachter from 'The Count of Monty Cristo'. I just > saw that movie, and i thought he did an outstanding job. > Thomas J That would be Guy Pearce. He's been my pick to play Vlad for some time. He was also in Priscilla, Queen of the Desert. Loiosh I imagine having either Robin Williams' voice or Dennis Leary's. Robert From seanp at ea.com Thu Oct 24 10:12:52 2002 From: seanp at ea.com (Penney, Sean) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 10:12:52 -0700 Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ Message-ID: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F5945C@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> >> Okay, as long I've said this, I'll give the few picks I have: >> Vlad: Bruce Willis. (Yeah, yeah. Shut up. He can do action, and he has >> brilliant comic timing. Check out Hudson Hawk) >Despite what virtually everyone says about 'Hudson Hawk', I -liked- that >movie. Especially keeping time to the songs. And yeah, I'd have to admit >that Bruce would probably make a pretty good Vlad. >> Sethra Lavode: Susan Sarandon. I don't care what you've seen her in, she >> can pull it off. She can pull off any role she's given. >... young enough, old enough, and those -eyes- ... okay, I'm sold. And with Susan and Bruce in the lineup you could make it into a musical! Vlad plays saxophone while Sethra sings "toucha toucha touch me". It could double-bill with "Bollywood Hollywood". From jjm57 at cornell.edu Thu Oct 24 10:36:42 2002 From: jjm57 at cornell.edu (Jeremy Michel) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 13:36:42 -0400 Subject: JHEREG CASTING Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021024133626.026dd8e0@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> just one addition so far... Wendy from South Prak as Deverra look at the facts: brown hair, brown eyes, permanently 8 PERFECT MATCH -ME From RuhlenR at missouri.edu Thu Oct 24 10:47:39 2002 From: RuhlenR at missouri.edu (Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student)) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 12:47:39 -0500 Subject: JHEREG CASTING Message-ID: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E01245496@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeremy Michel [mailto:jjm57 at cornell.edu] > just one addition so far... Wendy from South Prak as Deverra > look at the facts: brown hair, brown eyes, permanently 8 > PERFECT MATCH -ME Hm. I was thinking of myself (when I was a kid) as Devera. :) How about Jackie Chan as Vlad? I know the ethnicity is all wrong but he's got the right feel. I still vote for Madonna as Sethra. I know a lot of people hate her, but have you seen her in Evita? She looks like 5 completely different people at various times. I keep thinking how tired I am of this topic but somehow succumb to the temptation to add another suggestion anyway... Rachel > > From feaelin at kemenel.org Thu Oct 24 10:53:01 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 12:53:01 -0500 Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: H T [mailto:electrictwilight at hotmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, 2002 October 24 11:49 > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Casting _Jhereg_ > > Mellar - Gary Oldman > Oh. Excellent. Oldman's villians rock. > > Another suggestion for Mellar, maybe Tim Curry? No...I think you were right the first time. ;) Ack. I'm getting sucked in. From rone at ennui.org Thu Oct 24 11:36:38 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 11:36:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ In-Reply-To: <59200.209.208.44.34.1035479191.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> Message-ID: <20021024183638.2065726E2E@boredom.ennui.org> Robert Wood writes: [ Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, converting... ] > Hmm, i cannot picture bruce willis as vlad. When i picture vlad i see > smone a bit thinner and lively looking. Kinda like a dartagnan in all > the really awful 3 musketeer movies. Actually, i think the perfect Vlad > would be the main charachter from 'The Count of Monty Cristo'. I just > saw that movie, and i thought he did an outstanding job. That would be Guy Pearce. He's been my pick to play Vlad for some time. He was also in Priscilla, Queen of the Desert. Loiosh I imagine having either Robin Williams' voice or Dennis Leary's. Guy Pearce was the villain. Jim Caviezel was the Count. I could see Pearce as the Demon... rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From attjen at gwu.edu Thu Oct 24 12:16:42 2002 From: attjen at gwu.edu (Matt Jennings) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 15:16:42 -0400 Subject: Jhereg Casting (old school style) Message-ID: <3DBCDAFD@webmailbackup> Vlad: William Powell Cawti: Myrna Loy (of course) Morrolan: Tyrone Power Sethra: Marlene Dietrich Aliera: Carole Lombard Mellar: Basil Rathbone voice of Loiosh: ...Peter Lorre From righel at msn.com Thu Oct 24 12:18:21 2002 From: righel at msn.com (Rosemary Ighel) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 14:18:21 -0500 Subject: Jhereg Casting (old school style) References: <3DBCDAFD@webmailbackup> Message-ID: <013801c27b92$1e030030$47440aa9@mmm.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Jennings" > Vlad: William Powell > > Cawti: Myrna Loy (of course) > > Morrolan: Tyrone Power > > Sethra: Marlene Dietrich > > Aliera: Carole Lombard > > Mellar: Basil Rathbone > > voice of Loiosh: ...Peter Lorre and Jerry Mathers as the Beaver? R. From bertowud at gator.net Thu Oct 24 13:19:41 2002 From: bertowud at gator.net (Robert Wood) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 16:19:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ In-Reply-To: <20021024183638.2065726E2E@boredom.ennui.org> References: <59200.209.208.44.34.1035479191.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> <20021024183638.2065726E2E@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <59055.209.208.44.34.1035490781.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> > Guy Pearce was the villain. Jim Caviezel was the Count. I could see > Pearce as the Demon... > > rone Oh, yeah, I was thinking The Time Machine. Oops! I still vote for Guy Pearce as Vlad. Robert From nytemuse at auros.org Thu Oct 24 13:48:07 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 13:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: (I think) Brust webpage Message-ID: Hey all. I finally got enough done on the Steven Brust section of my website to post a prelim version. So if you contributed something for the site, or just need something to do, go check it out (and the other sections too *g*). And if you find any gross mis-information or stuff that should be there that I missed, please let me know? Thanks. Hope you like it. http://www.crowfire.com/ ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From Alan.Halsted at mailus.com.au Thu Oct 24 16:49:35 2002 From: Alan.Halsted at mailus.com.au (Alan Halsted) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:49:35 +1000 Subject: Unsubscribing Message-ID: Hi all I need to unsubscribe from this list as i finish up today at work. What do i do? Any help greatly appreciated! This has been fun, especially the casting thread! Kind Regards, Alan Halsted > _______________________________________________________________ > > *********************** Alan Halsted > ****** _/ ****** Product Specialist > **** _/ **** Customer Information Centre > *** _/_/_/ _/_/_/ *** Hewlett-Packard Australia Ltd > *** _/ _/ _/ _/ *** > *** _/ _/ _/_/_/ *** Ph: 13 23 47 > **** _/ **** Fax: 03 9254 7853 > ****** _/ ****** E Mail: alan.halsted at mailus.com.au > *********************** www.hp.com.au > i n v e n t _______________________________________________________________ ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please delete the e-mail & notify the system manager. We reserve the right to scan all e-mail traffic for restricted content and to monitor all e-mail traffic in general. The views and opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender and do not necessarily reflect the views of the organisation by whom they are employed, except where the sender expressly and with authority states them to be so. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been checked for the presence of computer viruses and script. We believe but do not warrant that this e-mail is free from viruses. Responsibility for virus checking rests entirely with the recipient. 5 at 356 ********************************************************************** From calianng_graves at yahoo.com Thu Oct 24 16:50:08 2002 From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 16:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jhereg_casting Message-ID: <20021024235008.4925.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com> >Actually that was "Point of No Return" starring Bridget Fonda. :) > >Point Blank is something else entirely. :) Actually, I believe you are completely correct. It has been a long time since I have seen it, but I remember the actress pulled the part rather well. I still think she'd make a good Cawti. :) Caliann Owned and operated by the Grand Poohbah Cheese of the Universe "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site From books at bofh.com Thu Oct 24 21:34:59 2002 From: books at bofh.com (books at bofh.com) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 21:34:59 -0700 (MST) Subject: Jhereg_casting In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 24 Oct 2002 16:50:08 -0700 (PDT)" <20021024235008.4925.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01KO23JDH2D6000U8J@chud.net> >>Actually that was "Point of No Return" starring Bridget Fonda. :) >> >>Point Blank is something else entirely. :) And "Grosse Pointe Blank" something else. Which leads me to Cusak as Vlad. I think that could really work. (included on my list of favorite cheesy movies at http://www.bofh.com/other/cheese.html) -Jot From jjm57 at cornell.edu Thu Oct 24 22:19:37 2002 From: jjm57 at cornell.edu (Jeremy Michel) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 01:19:37 -0400 Subject: Jhereg_Casting Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021025011847.025f2ec0@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> At 09:34 PM 10/24/2002 -0700, you wrote: >>Actually that was "Point of No Return" starring Bridget Fonda. :) >> >>Point Blank is something else entirely. :) And "Grosse Pointe Blank" something else. Which leads me to Cusak as Vlad. I think that could really work. (included on my list of favorite cheesy movies at http://www.bofh.com/other/cheese.html) -Jot If Jon Cusak played vlad does that mean Joan would be Melestav? Also shouldn't the Left-hand be doing this? From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Oct 24 22:45:29 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 25 Oct 2002 00:45:29 -0500 Subject: OT: (I think) Brust webpage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nytemuse writes: > Hey all. I finally got enough done on the Steven Brust section of my > website to post a prelim version. So if you contributed something for the > site, or just need something to do, go check it out (and the other > sections too *g*). And if you find any gross mis-information or stuff > that should be there that I missed, please let me know? Thanks. Hope you > like it. > http://www.crowfire.com/ Added to our links page (and thinks for the link from you). -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From mam at theworld.com Fri Oct 25 07:24:08 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:24:08 -0400 Subject: Brust webpage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: IMHO this is definitely NOT off topic! I have to be working right now, so only a quick glance and three comments: 1. Shaping up nice. 2. Bad color scheme. Black background makes it hard for some to read, especially those whose sight is less than perfect for whatever reason, such as (in my case) middle age or later. Purple on black: Loiosh, attack! 3. I like the character bios. I once started taking notes for something like that myself, but it was way too much for me. You say about Aliera: Aliera e'Kieron is a rather powerful Dragonlord, and second Dragon Heir to the throne. She is the daughter of Adron e'Kieron, who was responsible for Adron's Disaster (which destroyed the capital of Dragaera City and created the Great Sea of Chaos) many years ago. She survived the disaster with the help of Sethra Lavode. Her mother is someone a little less common: Verra, the Easterners' Demon Goddess. <> Small in stature, but large in determination, Aliera e'Kieron is a wild force. You write about her in the present tense, as we usually do about characters, but you're inconsistent in the next to last sentence, which I have marked in <>. Elder sorcery is still illegal in Vlad's time, isn't it? -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mam at theworld.com Fri Oct 25 07:36:56 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:36:56 -0400 Subject: Brust webpage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've just added a link to your Brust site to Cracks and Shards http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/index.html#Other%20Web%20sites -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mam at theworld.com Fri Oct 25 07:44:22 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:44:22 -0400 Subject: Brust webpage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/index.html#Other%20Web%20sites Boy, that's an ugly link. It will now work with Othersites in place of the part after the '#'. I will try to de-space the other links as well, in my negative spare time. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mam at theworld.com Fri Oct 25 07:50:57 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:50:57 -0400 Subject: Cracks and Shards minor update Message-ID: Several people have complained that the backgrounds on the Cracks and Shards pages make the text hard to read. I've reduced the stripes to lines in hopes of improving the situation. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From dalvenjah at DAL.NET Fri Oct 25 09:32:32 2002 From: dalvenjah at DAL.NET (Dalvenjah FoxFire) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:32:32 -0700 Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ In-Reply-To: <125.18cdaa83.2ae8ffcd@aol.com> References: <125.18cdaa83.2ae8ffcd@aol.com> Message-ID: <20021025163232.GA8959@dragonlair.dal.net> >>>>> "FelixEisen" == FelixEisen writes: FelixEisen> skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: >> Okay, as long I've said this, I'll give the few picks I have: >> Vlad: Bruce Willis. (Yeah, yeah. Shut up. He can do action, >> and he has brilliant comic timing. Check out Hudson Hawk) FelixEisen> Despite what virtually everyone says about 'Hudson FelixEisen> Hawk', I -liked- that movie. Especially keeping time FelixEisen> to the songs. And yeah, I'd have to admit that Bruce FelixEisen> would probably make a pretty good Vlad. I've actually been thinking someone else for Vlad -- Johnny Depp. Though now that I think about it harder, he might also be good for Khaavren. I liked him lots in both Sleepy Hollow and From Hell. The unassuming form that could kick some butt if it were in character. I do have to admit that the image of Vlad muttering "Yippie-kay-yay, motherf*ckers!" right before laying waste to several someones is a somewhat pleasing thought. -dalvenjah -- Dalvenjah FoxFire (aka Sven Nielsen) "It brought me a Mr. Potato Head, Scully. It knew that I wanted a Mr. Potato Head!" e-mail: dalvenjah at dal.net From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Oct 25 09:50:36 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:50:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Brust webpage Message-ID: <200210251650.g9PGoZC21224@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Aliera e'Kieron is a rather powerful Dragonlord, and second Dragon Heir > to the throne. She is the daughter of Adron e'Kieron, who was > responsible for Adron's Disaster (which destroyed the capital of > Dragaera City and created the Great Sea of Chaos) many years ago. She > survived the disaster with the help of Sethra Lavode. Her mother is > someone a little less common: Verra, the Easterners' Demon Goddess. > < in her day was illegal, but she didn't care.>> Small in stature, but > large in determination, Aliera e'Kieron is a wild force. So, maybe I'm completely wrong here, but: Adron's Disaster created the Lesser Sea of Chaos, correct? Just a minor correction... :) Chris "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, son." - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Oct 25 10:04:39 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ Message-ID: <200210251704.g9PH4cC24328@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Mailing-List: contact dragaera-help at dragaera.info; run by ezmlm > X-No-Archive: yes > X-Archive-Number: 2910 > List-Post: > List-Help: > List-Unsubscribe: > List-Subscribe: > Delivered-To: mailing list dragaera at dragaera.info > I've actually been thinking someone else for Vlad -- Johnny Depp. > Though now that I think about it harder, he might also be good > for Khaavren. I liked him lots in both Sleepy Hollow and From Hell. > The unassuming form that could kick some butt if it were in character. Hmm... I'm not sure about Vlad, but I'm sure we could find a place for him somewhere! The other that comes to mind is Ewan McGregor. Between him and Depp, we'd have two of the most attractive actors out there! (IMO:) > I do have to admit that the image of Vlad muttering "Yippie-kay-yay, > motherf*ckers!" right before laying waste to several someones is > a somewhat pleasing thought. This is frightening. I mean, REALLY frightening. I loved Hudson Hawk, and even 5th Element. But I could see either of those two as Vlad-types before the "Yippie-Ki-Yay" type. Not as much comedic timing in those... :) Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From dalvenjah at DAL.NET Fri Oct 25 10:14:23 2002 From: dalvenjah at DAL.NET (Dalvenjah FoxFire) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:14:23 -0700 Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ In-Reply-To: <200210251704.g9PH4cC24328@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200210251704.g9PH4cC24328@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <20021025171422.GA11116@dragonlair.dal.net> >>>>> "Chrisf.Olson" == Chris Olson <- SunPS > writes: Chrisf.Olson> This is frightening. I mean, REALLY frightening. I Chrisf.Olson> loved Hudson Hawk, and even 5th Element. But I Chrisf.Olson> could see either of those two as Vlad-types before Chrisf.Olson> the "Yippie-Ki-Yay" type. Not as much comedic Chrisf.Olson> timing in those... Well true. (I haven't seen Hudson Hawk yet.) But that line is my quintessential Bruce Willis line; sort of like Ahnold's "I'll be back." (Though Pablo Francisco's version of Ahnold*: "They're coming to take my tortillas!!" competes well with it.) -dalvenjah * Listen the last track of Pablo's album "Knee to the Groin" for details -- Dalvenjah FoxFire (aka Sven Nielsen) "He was the kind of guy who wouldn't crack a smile if Strom Thurmond showed up on his driveway doing the Macarena." - Time Mag, on Millenium's Frank Black e-mail: dalvenjah at dal.net From AkodoBob at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 25 10:40:29 2002 From: AkodoBob at sbcglobal.net (Akodo Bob) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:40:29 -0700 Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ In-Reply-To: <200210251704.g9PH4cC24328@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: on 10/25/02 10:04 AM, Chris Olson - SunPS at Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM wrote: > Hmm... I'm not sure about Vlad, but I'm sure we could > find a place for him somewhere! > > The other that comes to mind is Ewan McGregor. Between > him and Depp, we'd have two of the most attractive actors > out there! (IMO:) > Yeah Depp would be a great choice from someone in the movie (anyone see the Ninth Gate?) but i think he's a little too passive for the job of Vlad. I was thinking about Kragar, but it just doesn't seem right either. Maybe (and forgive me fangirls) as Daymar? I actually don't know, Depp is adept at playing the sort of antihero, guy who you like but is distinctly flawed. But he's also a wuss. I can't rectify how incredibly slick Vlad is at combat with the utter lack of the same Depp has displayed. >> I do have to admit that the image of Vlad muttering "Yippie-kay-yay, >> motherf*ckers!" right before laying waste to several someones is >> a somewhat pleasing thought. I think Willis gets my vote too. AkodoBob From nytemuse at auros.org Fri Oct 25 10:42:24 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:42:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Brust webpage In-Reply-To: <200210251650.g9PGoZC21224@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: Thanks for all the suggestions/corrections. I did the whole thing w/o looking at the books, (didn't have time right now) so I knew there'd be some discrepancies. I plan to go through them sometime in the future to get more info and to check accuracy on what I do have. Just to give some other info, for any comments/complaints on color scheme or layout suggestions, that template is used globally on the website and not totally likely to change in the near future. If I get enough spare time, I'm going to fix my CSS, so the link colors may possibly change, or they may not. I don't know, but everything on the page has been written for a black background, which is staying. If you are having trouble seeing it, you can try adjusting the brightness/contrast on your monitor. Again, thanks for the fixes on content, and also for the links! (And I sent the original message as OT just to cover my arse. I agree it's not necessarily OT) :) ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From ajmcguigan at yahoo.com Fri Oct 25 11:01:11 2002 From: ajmcguigan at yahoo.com (Andrew McGuigan) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:01:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ In-Reply-To: <20021025163232.GA8959@dragonlair.dal.net> Message-ID: <20021025180111.68792.qmail@web12705.mail.yahoo.com> So I'd like to thank everyone for this thread, I was reading *Yendi* last night and I heard Dennis Leary's voice for Loiosh. Sheesh. Andrew From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Oct 25 14:27:37 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 17:27:37 -0400 Subject: Brust webpage Message-ID: <49E30178.30D74D39.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated 10/25/2002 9:24:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, Mark A Mandel writes: > Elder sorcery is still illegal in Vlad's time, isn't it? Yes, Morrolan admits the book Mellar stole and returned is illegal and the Empress knows about it, but chooses not to harrass him over it. --KG From FelixEisen at aol.com Fri Oct 25 22:20:52 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 01:20:52 EDT Subject: Casting _Jhereg_ Message-ID: <17.309b522d.2aeb8034@aol.com> Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM writes: > This is frightening. I mean, REALLY frightening. I loved > Hudson Hawk, and even 5th Element. But I could see either > of those two as Vlad-types before the "Yippie-Ki-Yay" type. > Not as much comedic timing in those... > :) > Chris Think 'Hudson Hawk' combined with 'Last Man Standing'. But hell, even in LMS Willis STILL had a great sense of comedic timing. It was all just very black humor. Knightmarshall Felix Surnamed Eisen, or "Iron Felix" Hand of Morr, The Order of Bones From FelixEisen at aol.com Fri Oct 25 22:33:25 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 01:33:25 EDT Subject: Illegal Elder Sorcery Message-ID: <99.2eb2ec3a.2aeb8325@aol.com> Sort of like a morganti weapon -- illegal, but overlooked so long as you don't use it, and so long as the authorities don't need to hassle you. But if they need to hassle you, hey, expect it to be pulled out of the drawer. Makes me curious, though; morganti weapons are illegal. The Great Weapons are morganti. By simple logic, the Great Weapons are all illegal. Of course, arresting someone who is in full possession of a Great Weapon is probably not high on the Phoenix Guards' list of things to take pleasure doing ... Knightmarshall Felix Surnamed Eisen, or "Iron Felix" Hand of Morr, The Order of Bones From davids at kithrup.com Fri Oct 25 23:22:30 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 23:22:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Illegal Elder Sorcery In-Reply-To: <99.2eb2ec3a.2aeb8325@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Oct 2002 FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: >Sort of like a morganti weapon -- illegal, but overlooked so long as >you don't use it, and so long as the authorities don't need to hassle >you. But if they need to hassle you, hey, expect it to be pulled out >of the drawer. > >Makes me curious, though; morganti weapons are illegal. The Great >Weapons are morganti. By simple logic, the Great Weapons are all >illegal. I think the fact that the bearers of Great Weapons are serving the will of the gods renders the issue moot in the eyes of the Empire. Tangental to that, though, I can't help but wonder - if the Empire suspected (or knew) that Vlad had used Morganti weapons, they might very well have asked him about it while they had him under the Orb. The more I think about it, the more it seems to me that Vlad's interrogation under the Orb was probably scripted such as to let him walk. I mean, if they had an infallible method of determining the exact truth to such statements as "Have you ever killed anyone using a Morganti weapon?", wouldn't they have used it and nailed him on that (at the very least)? I also find it hard to believe that they couldn't find the right questions to nail him for the murder itself - his derisive evasions and carefully worded "truths" would only go so far if they *really* wanted him. Perhaps the issues of soft interrogation and laws which exist but are rarely & selectively enforced will be explored more in "IORICH". >Of course, arresting someone who is in full possession of a Great >Weapon is probably not high on the Phoenix Guards' list of things to >take pleasure doing ... > Heck, owning a Great Weapon and experimenting in Elder Sorcery hasn't even hurt Morrolan's Imperial career - he's Court Wizard (per ISSOLA). From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Sat Oct 26 05:38:07 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 08:38:07 -0400 Subject: Illegal Elder Sorcery References: Message-ID: <3DBA8CAF.23CB8D0E@earthlink.net> David Silberstein wrote: > > The more I think about it, the more it seems to me that Vlad's > interrogation under the Orb was probably scripted such as to let him > walk. I mean, if they had an infallible method of determining the > exact truth to such statements as "Have you ever killed anyone using a > Morganti weapon?", wouldn't they have used it and nailed him on that > (at the very least)? I also find it hard to believe that they > couldn't find the right questions to nail him for the murder itself - > his derisive evasions and carefully worded "truths" would only go so > far if they *really* wanted him. I think the nature of the crime colored the investigation. In that particular case, Vlad was brought in and interrogated only because the Jhereg he killed had bought a Duchy. Had it just been a lower ranked noble, the Empire would have ignored the whole thing. Another thought just struck me: Vlad killed the guy with a regular dagger in the left eye, destroying the brain and preventing revivification. Therefore, the empire would have no grounds on which to ask about Morganti weapons, as that would be irrelevant to that investigation. I have a feeling that interrogation under the Orb is strictly confined to the crime in question so as to prevent Imperial abuse of power; they don't sit you down and force you to admit to every crime you've committed, but rather question you closely about the one they think you have. Jose, rambling -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From eshivak at netzero.net Sat Oct 26 08:04:18 2002 From: eshivak at netzero.net (eshivak) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 11:04:18 -0400 Subject: Illegal Elder Sorcery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I seem to recall that Vlad himself explained how he was able to lie under the orb. It only works if the person being questioned believes the answer to be a lie... Q: Did you kill "X". A: No, he killed himself. (By pissing me off enough to need to kill him) -----Original Message----- From: David Silberstein [mailto:davids at kithrup.com] Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 2:23 AM To: Draegara List Subject: Re: Illegal Elder Sorcery On Sat, 26 Oct 2002 FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: >Sort of like a morganti weapon -- illegal, but overlooked so long as >you don't use it, and so long as the authorities don't need to hassle >you. But if they need to hassle you, hey, expect it to be pulled out >of the drawer. > >Makes me curious, though; morganti weapons are illegal. The Great >Weapons are morganti. By simple logic, the Great Weapons are all >illegal. I think the fact that the bearers of Great Weapons are serving the will of the gods renders the issue moot in the eyes of the Empire. Tangental to that, though, I can't help but wonder - if the Empire suspected (or knew) that Vlad had used Morganti weapons, they might very well have asked him about it while they had him under the Orb. The more I think about it, the more it seems to me that Vlad's interrogation under the Orb was probably scripted such as to let him walk. I mean, if they had an infallible method of determining the exact truth to such statements as "Have you ever killed anyone using a Morganti weapon?", wouldn't they have used it and nailed him on that (at the very least)? I also find it hard to believe that they couldn't find the right questions to nail him for the murder itself - his derisive evasions and carefully worded "truths" would only go so far if they *really* wanted him. Perhaps the issues of soft interrogation and laws which exist but are rarely & selectively enforced will be explored more in "IORICH". >Of course, arresting someone who is in full possession of a Great >Weapon is probably not high on the Phoenix Guards' list of things to >take pleasure doing ... > Heck, owning a Great Weapon and experimenting in Elder Sorcery hasn't even hurt Morrolan's Imperial career - he's Court Wizard (per ISSOLA). From davids at kithrup.com Sat Oct 26 11:42:33 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 11:42:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Illegal Elder Sorcery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Oct 2002, eshivak wrote: >I seem to recall that Vlad himself explained how he was able to lie under >the orb. It only works if the person being questioned believes the answer >to be a lie... > >Q: Did you kill "X". >A: No, he killed himself. (By pissing me off enough to need to kill him) I don't think he said "no" in answer to the question [checks...]. It's described in "Phoenix", pg 152-153: And somehow my name came up, and, after spending a couple of weeks in the Imperial Dungeons, I was ordered to testify "Under the Orb," [...] and all these peers of House Jhereg who had no power at all in the running of the Organization. I was asked things like, "When did you last see him alive?" and I'd say, "Oh, I don't know; he was always pretty dead," and they'd rebuke me sternly. They asked my opinion as to who killed him and I said that I believed he had killed himself. The Orb showed that I was telling the truth, and I was; messing with me the way he'd been doing was like asking to die. The thing is, if they really wanted to nail him, they could have asked him a series of questions, and demanded he answer "yes" or "no". Questions like "Do you know who killed him?", "Did you kill him yourself?" and "Did you pay someone else to kill him?" are really tough to evade when you can only answer "yes" or "no", and have the truth verified by the Orb. Unless, of course, he *didn't* actually have anything to to with Taishatinin's (or whatever his name was) death - I think it's not stated specifically that he did, only that he was (a) severely pissed off at him and (b) took advantage of the man's death to take over his area. It's possible Vlad has been messing with us all along. :-) From Gaertk at aol.com Sat Oct 26 13:20:45 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 16:20:45 -0400 Subject: Illegal Elder Sorcery Message-ID: <1E71C11A.17227133.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated 10/26/2002 1:22:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, David Silberstein writes: > > Tangental to that, though, I can't help but wonder - if the > Empire suspected (or knew) that Vlad had used Morganti > weapons, they might very well have asked him about it while > they had him under the Orb. *Had* he used Morganti weapons by that time? He's only been interrogated once, for the death of God-Boss. > The more I think about it, the more it seems to me that > Vlad's interrogation under the Orb was probably scripted > such as to let him walk. ?I mean, if they had an infallible > method of determining the exact truth to such statements as > "Have you ever killed anyone using a Morganti weapon?", > wouldn't they have used it and nailed him on that (at the > very least)? "Your Majesty, that question is totally irrelevent to what you are accusing me of." --KG From davids at kithrup.com Sat Oct 26 13:44:58 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 13:44:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Some amusing linguisitic trivia Message-ID: This may only be of interest to a few folks, but wotthehell. I don't know how much thought Steve has given to his various languages (Dragearan, Serioli, Kanefthali, the secret languages of the Dragons and the secret language of the Orca, Fenarian (in the sense that it has diverged somewhat from Hungarian), etc, etc), but he (and others here) might be interested in perusing the Language Construction Kit pages: http://www.zompist.com/kit.html There's even a section on politeness, to be vaguely on-topic: http://www.zompist.com/kitgram.html#polite For the linguistically inclined, the site owner has many linguistic web pages: http://www.zompist.com/default.html Also, I stumbed across this page: http://members.aol.com/gulfhigh2/words1.html that has the following tidbits (which reminded me of "Brokedown Palace", to be vaguely on-topic): The Hungarian word ?jj??p?t?s?r?l ("about its reconstruction") has 7 diacritical marks. The Hungarian word ?jj??p?t?s?re ("for its reconstruction") has 6 diacritical marks. [...] In Lithuanian, [...] kraujijimas is archaic for "staining with blood". From tyan at twcny.rr.com Sat Oct 26 14:35:28 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: 26 Oct 2002 17:35:28 -0400 Subject: Jhereg-Dragon War #1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Rob Bokkon writes: > I think this story is a classic example of Vlad not knowing wtf he's > talking about...it's absolutely filled with inconsistencies. For > example: 1. The mention of "Lower Kieron Road". I'm sure that Dragaera > City probably had a Lower Kieron Road, but don't you get the > impression that Vlad means the one in Adrilankha? 2. The mention of > teleportation. As made clear in FHYA, teleportation wasn't possible > (except for one or two notable exceptions) until /after/ the > Interregnum. 3. The mention of revivification. When Vlad talks to If you're talking about _Jhereg_, then note that Steve edited it out of the _The Book of Jhereg_ omnibus (and also did something like use "amorphia" and "chaos" interchangeably). This is why I've joked that someone with a lot of time should compare _The Book of Taltos_ with the originals. > Verra in Phoenix (p. 117) she mentions that, in the post-Interregnum > society, "even resurrection of the dead has become possible". I have a > feeling that Verra knows what she's talking about here. Of course, > what's really going on here is that Jhereg was the first book written, > and there was nothing like a set-in-stone chronology at the time...but > for the sake of argument, let's just say that Vlad doesn't have the > vaguest idea what he's talking about. - tky From den at monger.net Sat Oct 26 14:21:52 2002 From: den at monger.net (Dennis Higbee) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 14:21:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Illegal Elder Sorcery In-Reply-To: <1E71C11A.17227133.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Oct 2002 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/26/2002 1:22:30 AM Eastern Standard > Time, David Silberstein writes: > > > > > Tangental to that, though, I can't help but wonder - if the > > Empire suspected (or knew) that Vlad had used Morganti > > weapons, they might very well have asked him about it while > > they had him under the Orb. > > *Had* he used Morganti weapons by that time? He's only been > interrogated once, for the death of God-Boss. If the timeline as laid out in _Taltos_ can be believed, Vlad offed Raiet before tangling with God-boss. -Dennis From FelixEisen at aol.com Sat Oct 26 22:51:14 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 01:51:14 EDT Subject: Illegal Elder Sorcery Message-ID: <34.2f396be2.2aecd8d2@aol.com> davids at kithrup.com writes: > The more I think about it, the more it seems to me that Vlad's > interrogation under the Orb was probably scripted such as to let him > walk. I mean, if they had an infallible method of determining the > exact truth to such statements as "Have you ever killed anyone using a > Morganti weapon?", wouldn't they have used it and nailed him on that > (at the very least)? I disagree on a number of points. Let us first take the idea of bringing up the topic of a morganti weapon and convicting an individual of its use when that is not what you are on trial for. Consider: even in today's egalitarian (well, sort of) society, a prosecutor cannot merely begin to wander off on a tangent without getting the defense all riled up. 'My client is not on trial for buying automatic weapons, Your Honor, he is on trial for murder.' "Objection sustained. Mr. Prosecutor?" Even more restrictive is the questioning of a noble. So the House of the Jhereg isn't particularly picky about its nobility. So the rank of Baronet is barely noble at all. The point of it is that, especially with the Empress sitting right there, the examiners are not going to wander off on a tangent, questioning you about morganti weapons when the issue at hand is the murder of a duke. Next, consider the idea of 'infallible method of determining the exact truth'. Except for a straight-out mind probe -- probably something illegal in and of itself -- there is likely no actual way of determining the exact FACT. Fact is not truth, remember; truth is relative, individual. 'Did you kill him?' "I think he committed suicide." From Vlad's point of view, Tagiwhateverchan killed himself by screwing around with Vlad -- sort of 'never laugh at live dragons', except it's 'never fuck with accomplished assassins'. The facts -- Vlad caused a wound by the use of a knife or whatever, said wound being the ultimate cause of the end of Tagitchan's life -- were not verified by the questioning of Baronet Taltos. There is a lesson here -- if you're ever going to prosecute, you want to establish facts, then establish that the individual in question has 'guilty knowledge' -- which is to say, knowledge of all the facts of the case. This is the proper use of the lie detector, whatever it happens to be -- voice stress analysis, polygraph, or mystic Imperial Orb. This is, however, a somewhat side issue; the fact of the matter is that Vlad is clearly a successful player of the verbal game that Steve Perry calls 'fugue' -- the art of saying something, but having something else understood. It is in such doublespeak that 'truth' gets twisted, bent, but never quite mutilated or broken. The Iorich, I expect, are not the experts that the Issola are in doublespeak, and they clearly underestimated a lowly Easterner Jhereg Baronet in regards to that game. You have to understand: a sharp player of fugue can avoid almost -any- answer unless the questioner is incredibly exacting. One person can ask another, 'Do you know what my location is?" and the other could answer, 'No' -- the hidden meaning being something like 'no, I don't know your precise latitude and longitude'. The Iorich questioners simply weren't exacting enough in their questioning, leaving Vlad enough squirming room to escape. Whether this was intentional or not (considering the Iorich, I don't think it was) may be material, but I certainly don't think it was scripted. Besides, I think the Empress had a good old time watching Vlad weasel his way out from under the Iorich. She clearly had ... 'fond' recollections of him. Knightmarshall Felix Surnamed Eisen, or "Iron Felix" Hand of Morr, The Order of Bones From dar at horusinc.com Sun Oct 27 06:39:37 2002 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 08:39:37 -0600 Subject: Illegal Elder Sorcery In-Reply-To: <34.2f396be2.2aecd8d2@aol.com> Message-ID: > I disagree on a number of points. > > Let us first take the idea of bringing up the topic of a morganti > weapon and > convicting an individual of its use when that is not what you are > on trial > for. Consider: even in today's egalitarian (well, sort of) society, a > prosecutor cannot merely begin to wander off on a tangent without > getting the > defense all riled up. I think that you're making a huge set assumptions about the issues involving Dragaeran legal practice. Anybody care to think about the fact that this whole issue involves the *Empress*? Her time is undoubtedly more valuable than 'fishing trips' for possible crimes, no matter how obnoxious. The point was made that she was involved because it involved the murder of a Duke (or a Grand-Duke?) and despite that fact that it involved the Jhereg, the authorities became involved when Dukes were murdered on general principle... Not only that, but the Emperess has been shown to be a very canny and savvy individual, why bother with that sort of question when it isn't evidently that hard to get ahold of the darn things in the first place? David From grapawy at yahoo.com Sun Oct 27 07:00:43 2002 From: grapawy at yahoo.com (Greg Rapawy) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 07:00:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Illegal Elder Sorcery In-Reply-To: <34.2f396be2.2aecd8d2@aol.com> Message-ID: <20021027150043.67458.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> --- FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: > davids at kithrup.com writes: >> The more I think about it, the more it seems to me >> that Vlad's interrogation under the Orb was probably >> scripted such as to let him walk. > [...] Vlad is clearly a successful player of the > verbal game that Steve Perry calls 'fugue' -- the > art of saying something, but having something else > understood. It is in such doublespeak that 'truth' > gets twisted, bent, but never quite mutilated or > broken. The Iorich, I expect, are not the experts > that the Issola are in doublespeak, and they clearly > underestimated a lowly Easterner Jhereg Baronet in > regards to that game. I agree with most of Felix's reasoning, but with David's conclusion. Vlad is definitely good at playing with words; look at his report to Kiera of his next-to-last conversation with Timmer in _Orca_. ("I mean, you speak Jhereg -- You know what we were talking about, or, rather, _not_ talking about. . . .") (p. 268). It's also true, as Felix comments in a section I've omitted, that under modern trial procedure or anything like it it's easy to get away with evasive answers or those that are merely literally true. And I think that Dragaera probably has something like modern trial procedure, because Vlad comments in _Jhereg_ that the Empire foregoes the niceties when someone is killed with a Morganti weapon -- which implies that there are niceties in other cases. Vlad, however, isn't a lawyer (Brust uses "advocate"). Furthermore, he tells Teldra in _Issola_ that he didn't have an advocate with him when he was questioned under the Orb in connection with his former employers. Here's where my disagreement with Felix comes in. A good trial lawyer can deal with evasive answers and half-truths. (In the example of Tajichatn's "committing suicide" or "killing himself," one follow-up is to ask why Vlad thinks that -- what he observed that led him to that conclusion -- and then to follow up on the response, and so on. It's easy to answer questions evasively taken one at a time; it's hard to do it when the questioner is actively probing for weaknesses and contradictions.) The reason a witness can sometimes get away with evasion on the stand is that there's usually another good trial lawyer trying to protect him. So why *did* Vlad get away with it? It's possible that SKZB just thinks a smart, glib layperson can generally outsmart a good lawyer on the witness stand. If so, I disagree. It can happen once in a while, and it's possible that Vlad was just lucky; but, if so, he doesn't know how lucky he was. It's also possible that, whatever SKZB may think of real lawyers, the Iorich just aren't that good at crossexamination. I think that's unlikely. Each House is very good at the specific thing it does. The Dragons are good warriors; the Jhereg are good criminals; the Issola are good diplomats. Why would the Iorich be bad lawyers? I prefer the explanation that the Empire just wasn't looking very hard for the killer. Sure, the Jhereg was a Duke; when a Duke dies, the Empire looks into it. But, then, the Duke was a Jhereg, and the Empire really doesn't care about the Jhereg killing each other. So long as Vlad danced reasonably well and kept up appearances, they were willing to let him go. "Scripted," as David puts it, might be a little strong. But it may well have been perfectly obvious to everyone involved that a little more questioning would have pinned Vlad down. It was certainly obvious to the Empress that he was being evasive, as she commented in _Phoenix_. -- Greg __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From davids at kithrup.com Sun Oct 27 10:29:10 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 10:29:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Illegal Elder Sorcery In-Reply-To: <34.2f396be2.2aecd8d2@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Oct 2002 FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: >davids at kithrup.com writes: >> The more I think about it, the more it seems to me that Vlad's >> interrogation under the Orb was probably scripted such as to let him >> walk. I mean, if they had an infallible method of determining the >> exact truth to such statements as "Have you ever killed anyone using a >> Morganti weapon?", wouldn't they have used it and nailed him on that >> (at the very least)? > >I disagree on a number of points. Your disagreements are mostly reasonable. Let me see if I can argue with them, though. :-) >Let us first take the idea of bringing up the topic of a morganti >weapon and convicting an individual of its use when that is not what >you are on trial for. [snip parallels in our legal system] > The point of it is that, especially with the Empress sitting right >there, the examiners are not going to wander off on a tangent, >questioning you about morganti weapons when the issue at hand is the >murder of a duke. I had forgotten exactly what had occurred (and by the way, in TALTOS, Vlad states quite clearly that "Killing Tadishat may have been one of the easiest things I've ever done."), and I thought that perhaps it *had* been Morganti. But I don't think Vlad hated him *that* much. If it had been, questioning Vlad about Morganti weapons might have been within reason. But I accept that they might not have seen fit to question him on every illegal act he *might* have done, unless they really wanted to nail him. Part of the problem is that we don't really know what the legal standards are in the Empire. On the one hand, the legal system might be whatever the judges and advocates say it is, on the other hand (as pointed out in ORCA), the Empire has to keep the Houses happy, and that might well mean that (as you say), certain rules must be followed when nobles are on trial. But I recall Khaavren's interrogation under the Orb, and the rules seemed to be that whatever Tortaalik says, goes. But Paarfi may have been unreliable on that point. :-) Or Zerika has higher standards. >Next, consider the idea of 'infallible method of determining the >exact truth'. Except for a straight-out mind probe -- probably >something illegal in and of itself -- there is likely no actual way >of determining the exact FACT. Fact is not truth, remember; truth is >relative, individual. 'Did you kill him?' "I think he committed >suicide." From Vlad's point of view, Tagiwhateverchan killed himself >by screwing around with Vlad -- sort of 'never laugh at live >dragons', except it's 'never fuck with accomplished assassins'. Incidentally, in TALTOS, Vlad doesn't say that Ta fucked with him, only that they didn't like each other (and also that Ta "made enemies", presumably besides Vlad), and that Vlad wanted to advance himself. That's it. Of course, he may have been omitting a few important details... > The facts -- Vlad caused a wound by the use of a knife or whatever, >said wound being the ultimate cause of the end of Tagitchan's life -- >were not verified by the questioning of Baronet Taltos. >There is a lesson here -- if you're ever going to prosecute, you want >to establish facts, then establish that the individual in question >has 'guilty knowledge' -- which is to say, knowledge of all the facts >of the case. This is the proper use of the lie detector, whatever it >happens to be -- voice stress analysis, polygraph, or mystic Imperial >Orb. True, but other lie detectors are fallible, and (if I am not mistaken) not admissible in court with the current state of technology. The Orb (presumably) is accurate (or at least accepted as such). And I still maintain that if Vlad's interrogators had been in the least bit interested in determining the facts of the case, they could have done so by asking the questions more carefully. >This is, however, a somewhat side issue; the fact of the matter is >that Vlad is clearly a successful player of the verbal game that >Steve Perry calls 'fugue' -- the art of saying something, but having >something else understood. That sounds familiar - is it from "The Man Who Never Missed"? > It is in such doublespeak that 'truth' gets twisted, bent, but never >quite mutilated or broken. Like, "I did not have sex with that woman"? :-D ( For values of sex equal to coitus). > The Iorich, I expect, are not the experts that the Issola are in >doublespeak, and they clearly underestimated a lowly Easterner Jhereg >Baronet in regards to that game. I don't think we know enough about the interrogation to be able to assume that. >The Iorich questioners simply weren't exacting enough in their >questioning, leaving Vlad enough squirming room to escape. Whether >this was intentional or not (considering the Iorich, I don't think it >was) may be material, but I certainly don't think it was scripted. OK, "scripted" may not have been the right word to use to describe it. But the incompetence was so great that I can't see how it was anything other than intentional (although not necessarily on the part of the interrogators - for example, they ask "Who do you think killed Ta?"; Vlad says "I believe he killed himself"; they see that that's kinda evasive and want to press on to get the facts; then the Empress says (perhaps psionically) "I think that's enough" - and the questioning is ended). > >Besides, I think the Empress had a good old time watching Vlad weasel >his way out from under the Iorich. > The Empress is indeed shown to be exceptionally perceptive, and she clearly understood what had happened. From AkodoBob at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 27 13:03:10 2002 From: AkodoBob at sbcglobal.net (Akodo Bob) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 13:03:10 -0800 Subject: Illegal Elder Sorcery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think we are missing a very big point about the whole relationship between the Jhereg and the Empire. My theory is that the Empire's attitude is very much a "Let them kill each other off" type of approach. The Empire has to perform an investigation because a noble died, and Morganti was used, but its only going to be a cursory investigation. The Empress probably knew Vlad did it, and most of the investigators suspected, but its likely that they simply went through the motions. The Empire and Jhereg have an understanding where that sort of laundry is kept in house and the Jhereg will take care of it themselves. The empire will investigate and probably end up with "Mario did it," and leave it at that. Similarly, I'd imagine that the Empress knows quite well that Moronlann and Aleria dabble in Elder Sorcery, but wisely keeps her eye blind to the transgression since they are both loyal to the Empress and are quite well able to put up a fight if the Empire tried to discourage their use. AkodoBob From nytemuse at auros.org Sun Oct 27 14:17:37 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 14:17:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Illegal Elder Sorcery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Oct 2002, Akodo Bob wrote: > My theory is that the Empire's attitude is very > much a "Let them kill each other off" type of approach. The Empire has to > perform an investigation because a noble died, and Morganti was used, but > its only going to be a cursory investigation. The Empress probably knew > Vlad did it, and most of the investigators suspected, but its likely that > they simply went through the motions. The Empire and Jhereg have an > > Similarly, I'd imagine that the Empress knows quite well that Moronlann and > Aleria dabble in Elder Sorcery, but wisely keeps her eye blind to the > transgression since they are both loyal to the Empress and are quite well > able to put up a fight if the Empire tried to discourage their use. That's how I always saw it...that it would "cost" too much time/resources/energy to actually do something about those. There is a rich history of legislators turning a blind eye to certain rules or certain cases, or at least minimizing the issue. Although I also wouldn't put it past the Empress and/or Iorich to REALLY go after Vlad or another Jhereg for the same case if someone more important was involved, like say Norathar or another House Heir, outside of Jhereg. Speaking of House Heirs, I don't recall if this issue was ever raised before, but has there ever been mention of who the current Jhereg Heir is? Theoretically, the Jhereg are included in the Cycle, and even if their reign is a long way off, I'm kind of curious if it was ever mentioned who would be the Heir. ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From davids at kithrup.com Sun Oct 27 14:39:44 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 14:39:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Illegal Elder Sorcery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Oct 2002, Nytemuse wrote: >Speaking of House Heirs, I don't recall if this issue was ever raised >before, but has there ever been mention of who the current Jhereg Heir >is? Theoretically, the Jhereg are included in the Cycle, and even if >their reign is a long way off, I'm kind of curious if it was ever >mentioned who would be the Heir. Well, most of the other Houses care about lineage. I suspect the Jhereg, like the Teckla, don't give a rat's ass about who your great-great-grandfather was. Unlike with the Teckla, I suspect that the Jhereg Emperorship is for sale to the highest bidder (or it goes to the highest-ranking member of the Jhereg Council, whoever that may happen to be at the time). Alternatively, maybe it goes to whoever "persuades" (by whatever means) the Vallista Emperor to step down. From mam at theworld.com Sun Oct 27 17:12:53 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 20:12:53 -0500 Subject: Illegal Elder Sorcery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Oct 2002, David Silberstein wrote: #Well, most of the other Houses care about lineage. I suspect the #Jhereg, like the Teckla, don't give a rat's ass about who your #great-great-grandfather was. Unlike with the Teckla, I suspect that #the Jhereg Emperorship is for sale to the highest bidder (or it goes #to the highest-ranking member of the Jhereg Council, whoever that #may happen to be at the time). # #Alternatively, maybe it goes to whoever "persuades" (by whatever #means) the Vallista Emperor to step down. I see the Jhereg as more inclined to pragmaticism than to tradition. IOW, it'll be whatever happens to work in a particular Cycle. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From Gaertk at aol.com Sun Oct 27 17:44:33 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 20:44:33 -0500 Subject: Illegal Elder Sorcery Message-ID: <4095AEE4.4A4A2C35.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated 10/27/2002 5:17:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, Nytemuse writes: > Speaking of House Heirs, I don't recall if this issue was > ever raised before, but has there ever been mention of who > the current Jhereg Heir is? ?Theoretically, the Jhereg are > included in the Cycle, and even if their reign is a long > way off, I'm kind of curious if it was ever mentioned who > would be the Heir. I'd guess Soffta, since he's the Jhereg representative to the Court, but looking the spelling of his name, I noticed he's only a Count, so maybe not. --KG From rone at ennui.org Sun Oct 27 18:06:12 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 18:06:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Illegal Elder Sorcery In-Reply-To: <4095AEE4.4A4A2C35.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20021028020612.A191C26E2A@boredom.ennui.org> Gaertk at aol.com writes: I'd guess Soffta, since he's the Jhereg representative to the Court, but looking the spelling of his name, I noticed he's only a Count, so maybe not. Yeah, i thought of Soffta and dismissed him for that, too. I'd imagine that the Council votes on it when the time comes. rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From mam at theworld.com Sun Oct 27 19:46:04 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 22:46:04 -0500 Subject: Illegal Elder Sorcery In-Reply-To: <20021028020612.A191C26E2A@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Oct 2002, definitely what wrote: #Yeah, i thought of Soffta and dismissed him for that, too. I'd #imagine that the Council votes on it when the time comes. I still think it'd be (what we might call) a "Jhereg vote". Votes are very much subject to any kind of influence one Jhereg might bring to bear on another, and not all votes count the same. -- Mark M. From andrew at networkharmoni.com.au Sun Oct 27 20:06:24 2002 From: andrew at networkharmoni.com.au (Andrew Bailey) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 12:06:24 +0800 Subject: Illegal Elder Sorcery References: Message-ID: <3DBCB7C0.6000801@networkharmoni.com.au> Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Sun, 27 Oct 2002, definitely what wrote: > > #Yeah, i thought of Soffta and dismissed him for that, too. I'd > #imagine that the Council votes on it when the time comes. > > I still think it'd be (what we might call) a "Jhereg vote". Votes are > very much subject to any kind of influence one Jhereg might bring to > bear on another, and not all votes count the same. > Jhereg-mander? *ducks* Andrew. > -- Mark M. > > From RuhlenR at missouri.edu Mon Oct 28 06:38:31 2002 From: RuhlenR at missouri.edu (Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student)) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 08:38:31 -0600 Subject: Illegal Elder Sorcery Message-ID: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E012454A3@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> > -----Original Message----- > From: Akodo Bob [mailto:AkodoBob at sbcglobal.net] > > I think we are missing a very big point about the whole > relationship between the Jhereg and the Empire. My theory is > that the Empire's attitude is very much a "Let them kill each > other off" type of approach. The Empire has to perform an > investigation because a noble died, and Morganti was used, > but its only going to be a cursory investigation. The > Empress probably knew Vlad did it, and most of the > investigators suspected, but its likely that they simply went > through the motions. The Empire and Jhereg have an > understanding where that sort of laundry is kept in house and > the Jhereg will take care of it themselves. The empire will > investigate and probably end up with "Mario did it," and > leave it at that. This is sort of true, only that particular example (where a Morganti weapon is involved) is not a good example. Vlad says that is the one case where the Empire WILL take a great interest and if they find the guy who did it, feed what is left of his soul after 'questioning' to a Morganti blade. The case under discussion (where Vlad was interrogated under the Orb) did not involve a Morganti weapon. The murder was unrevivifiable, but not Morganti. Rachel From mam at theworld.com Mon Oct 28 10:16:08 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:16:08 -0500 Subject: Illegal Elder Sorcery In-Reply-To: <3DBCB7C0.6000801@networkharmoni.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Oct 2002, Andrew Bailey wrote: #Jhereg-mander? # #*ducks* Why a duck? -- Mark A. Mandel From eriktdahl at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 10:55:27 2002 From: eriktdahl at yahoo.com (Erik Dahl) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:55:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Illegal Elder Sorcery Message-ID: <20021028185527.99843.qmail@web13703.mail.yahoo.com> Mark A Mandel (>) and Andrew Bailey (>>) wrote: >> *ducks* > Why a duck? "Because it's dull, you twit; it'll hurt more." From calianng_graves at yahoo.com Mon Oct 28 23:30:44 2002 From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 23:30:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Jhereg Heirs Message-ID: <20021029073044.46655.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> Well, most of the other Houses care about lineage. I suspect the Jhereg, like the Teckla, don't give a rat's ass about who your great-great-grandfather was. Unlike with the Teckla, I suspect that the Jhereg Emperorship is for sale to the highest bidder (or it goes to the highest-ranking member of the Jhereg Council, whoever that may happen to be at the time). Alternatively, maybe it goes to whoever "persuades" (by whatever means) the Vallista Emperor to step down. I have it straight from the voice of Steve that NO Jhereg Council-member would EVER agree to be Emperor. It is also unlikely to go to the highest bidder. What is likeliest is that it will go to a bidder who the Council feels will follow orders and be the most easily controlled from behind the scenes. Why be the one IN power when you can have all of the power and none of the risk of that power? Leaders get assassinated alot. Caliann *Owned and Operated by the Grand Poohbah Cheese of the Universe* "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now From rone at ennui.org Tue Oct 29 00:04:39 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 00:04:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Jhereg Heirs In-Reply-To: <20021029073044.46655.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20021029080439.3243826E2B@boredom.ennui.org> Caliann the Elf writes: I have it straight from the voice of Steve that NO Jhereg Council-member would EVER agree to be Emperor. It is also unlikely to go to the highest bidder. What is likeliest is that it will go to a bidder who the Council feels will follow orders and be the most easily controlled from behind the scenes. Why be the one IN power when you can have all of the power and none of the risk of that power? Leaders get assassinated a lot. That's what i figured, too; the Jhereg wouldn't consent to merely handing the Heirship to someone with a lot of cash. They'd probably work hard to achieve some sort of consensus pick, someone who, as you say, is readily manipulated. However, the Jhereg emperor probably isn't going to get assassinated because of the Orb; plus, it would be in House Jhereg's best interest to ensure that their Emperor lasts as long as possible. I imagine that the House of the Dragon gets collective nausea during a Jhereg reign. I wonder how they deal with the wholesale bad feelings... probably declare war on each other a lot. rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Oct 28 23:55:58 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 01:55:58 -0600 Subject: Jhereg Heirs In-Reply-To: <20021029073044.46655.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20021029073044.46655.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20021029075558.GC30730@infodancer.org> On Mon, Oct 28, 2002 at 11:30:44PM -0800, Caliann the Elf wrote: > Well, most of the other Houses care about lineage. I suspect the > Jhereg, like the Teckla, don't give a rat's ass about who your > great-great-grandfather was. Unlike with the Teckla, I suspect that > the Jhereg Emperorship is for sale to the highest bidder (or it goes > to the highest-ranking member of the Jhereg Council, whoever that > may happen to be at the time). We don't even know that there is always a Jhereg Council. I suspect that candidates are put forward by powerful Jhereg backers and the only one left alive gets to be Emperor. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From davids at kithrup.com Tue Oct 29 00:51:17 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 00:51:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Google hits on "jhereg" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Oct 2002, Nytemuse wrote: > >This kind of leads me to wonder if "jhereg" perhaps means something >outside of Brust's books. Anyone know? > Google is supersaturated with references to Brust's stuff (or the RPG which was derived from his stuff), so that's no help. However, I happened to notice the following: The Hungarian for "child" is "gyerek" ("gy" is sounded something like "dy", according to the intro to "Brokedown Palace") http://consulting.medios.fi/dictionary/?language=hu&search=gyerek&allow=true So I find myself wondering if SKZB changed the pronunciation of the word slightly ("dy" -> "zh", "k" -> "g") to "jhereg". (Perhaps he heard "gyerek" a lot from his dad, when he was young? Maybe in combination with "szemtelen" (naughty)? :-) ) From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Tue Oct 29 05:55:30 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 08:55:30 -0500 Subject: Jhereg Heirs References: <20021029073044.46655.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3DBE9352.AE545AD5@earthlink.net> Caliann the Elf wrote: > > > I have it straight from the voice of Steve that NO Jhereg Council-member would EVER agree to be Emperor. > > It is also unlikely to go to the highest bidder. > > What is likeliest is that it will go to a bidder who the Council feels will follow orders and be the most easily controlled from behind the scenes. > > Why be the one IN power when you can have all of the power and none of the risk of that power? Leaders get assassinated alot. I seem to recall reading somewhere (maybe Phoenix) that the Jhereg actually do have a nobility, but that none of them are involved in the Organization. The impression that I got is that they're there for show, and to have an established line from which a Jhereg heir can come. They're sort of irrelevant until the Jhereg reign comes around, and even then, I have a feeling that the Organization operates independently of them. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From mam at theworld.com Tue Oct 29 09:07:05 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 12:07:05 -0500 Subject: Illegal Elder Sorcery In-Reply-To: <20021028185527.99843.qmail@web13703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Oct 2002, Erik Dahl wrote: #Mark A Mandel (>) and Andrew Bailey (>>) wrote: # #>> *ducks* # #> Why a duck? # #"Because it's dull, you twit; it'll hurt more." Obviously a gap in my education. Explenn, plizz? -- Mark M. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Oct 29 09:12:30 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 09:12:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Illegal Elder Sorcery Message-ID: <200210291712.g9THCTC12803@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > #"Because it's dull, you twit; it'll hurt more." > > Obviously a gap in my education. Explenn, plizz? I believe it's a reference to the Robin Hood movie with the no-accent 'Hood... (why is his name escaping me at the moment? Guess I've tried to cast it out of my head...:) (You know, the Prince of Thieves one.) Except that, in the movie, it's a spoon not a duck. If I'm wrong, shoot some other guy... :) Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From mam at theworld.com Tue Oct 29 09:14:07 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 12:14:07 -0500 Subject: Jhereg Heirs In-Reply-To: <20021029080439.3243826E2B@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Oct 2002, definitely what wrote: #However, the Jhereg emperor probably isn't going to get assassinated #because of the Orb; plus, it would be in House Jhereg's best interest #to ensure that their Emperor lasts as long as possible. And of all Houses*, the Jhereg are probably best able to guard the Emperor against assassination. Unless, of course, the Council itself decides that he needs to be replaced. * Except perhaps the Yendi. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mam at theworld.com Tue Oct 29 09:17:29 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 12:17:29 -0500 Subject: Google hits on "jhereg" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Oct 2002, David Silberstein wrote: #The Hungarian for "child" is "gyerek" ("gy" is sounded something like #"dy", according to the intro to "Brokedown Palace") # #http://consulting.medios.fi/dictionary/?language=hu&search=gyerek&allow=true # #So I find myself wondering if SKZB changed the pronunciation of the #word slightly ("dy" -> "zh", "k" -> "g") to "jhereg". I'd noticed that, but I haven't asked him. Has anyone? It wouldn't make much sense in terms of the Houses as we know them by this point, but in terms of just _Jhereg_ it would. That's the first book, and much of it involves not only Vlad's childhood and coming of age, but also his "adoption" and raising of Loiosh. Oh, also, the accent (stress) shifts. All Hungarian words are stressed on the first syllable, but "jhereg" is stressed on the second, as Steve made clear in an exchange on this list, um, some months ago. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From tsarren at alyra.org Tue Oct 29 09:40:53 2002 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Kat) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 11:40:53 -0600 Subject: Illegal Elder Sorcery In-Reply-To: <200210291712.g9THCTC12803@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200210291712.g9THCTC12803@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <20021029174053.GD5817@galadriel.alyra.org> On Tue, Oct 29, 2002 at 09:12:30AM -0800, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > #"Because it's dull, you twit; it'll hurt more." > > > > Obviously a gap in my education. Explenn, plizz? > > I believe it's a reference to the Robin Hood movie > with the no-accent 'Hood... (why is his name escaping me > at the moment? Costner, I believe. Guess I've tried to cast it out of my > head...:) Though I am unable to evaluate it with anything approaching objectivity (I saw it when it first came out, and I was ~10 years old, so of course I devoured it and thought it was great), I seem to remember general opinion being that it was just an action movie and didn't have any really redeeming aspects, except maybe Alan Rickman's performance. (You know, the Prince of Thieves one.) > > Except that, in the movie, it's a spoon not a duck. I'm going to cut your heart out with a spoon! (said by the Sheriff, played by Rickman, to the back of the fleeing 'hood) Why a spoon, cousin; why not an axe, or a sword? (sheriff's cousin) 'Cause it's dull, you twit... Anon, Kat From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Oct 29 09:45:52 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 09:45:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Illegal Elder Sorcery Message-ID: <200210291745.g9THjpC22331@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > > I believe it's a reference to the Robin Hood movie > > with the no-accent 'Hood... (why is his name escaping me > > at the moment? > > Costner, I believe. See, I KNEW he had "Kevin" somewhere in his name... Thanks! > Though I am unable to evaluate it with anything approaching objectivity (I > saw it when it first came out, and I was ~10 years old, so of course I > devoured it and thought it was great), I seem to remember general opinion > being that it was just an action movie and didn't have any really redeeming > aspects, except maybe Alan Rickman's performance. Oh, don't get me wrong. I actualy enjoyed it (Like Hudson Hawk, it's one of those "don't tell anyone" pleasures:) I just couldn't stand Kevin's performance. Alan's was great, but he usualy is, and it was a "fun" movie. Thanks for the correction!! (I figured someone would know it!:) Cheers, Chris "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, son." - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm From electrictwilight at hotmail.com Tue Oct 29 10:14:32 2002 From: electrictwilight at hotmail.com (H.T. -- L.M.C.) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:14:32 +0000 Subject: Google hits on "jhereg" Message-ID: > >This kind of leads me to wonder if "jhereg" perhaps means something > >outside of Brust's books. Anyone know? > > >The Hungarian for "child" is "gyerek" ("gy" is sounded something like >"dy", according to the intro to "Brokedown Palace") > >So I find myself wondering if SKZB changed the pronunciation of the >word slightly ("dy" -> "zh", "k" -> "g") to "jhereg". > _______________________________________________________________________ Okay, just thought I'd share my thoughts on this. oh, oh, oh, I love when I get to ask my grandfather a question, which is rare. I had the opportunity to speak with my him, about, em, other things, and he speaks Hungarian, (though I'm not sure if he's still fluent and if you ask him he'd say it's NOT Hungarian, it Magyar, he's something like 75 or 78, and is not in a position where he is speaking the language on a daily basis or anything like that. He, more or less he grew up there and flew back every few years until he was like 60 or something. However, I love when I get to ask him questions that bring back memories of his youth, and I love it even more when I get to bug him with some dumb question about Hungry or his youth, which is extremely rare since I exhausted most of his patience with these sorts of questions when I was younger. But, none the less, I asked and here's what he said about "Jhereg". As far as he knows it's not a word in Hungarian, well it certianly didn't take a brain-surgeon to figure that one out, and secondly, he would stress the first vowel, Jh-e-reg, (though he pronounced it like nothing I would have ever thought, J basically =Y, and there were other variations that I still don't agree with.) Like that wasn't already figured out too. Thirdly, he said that the only thing close he could think of would be Fereg, accent on the first vowel, which means "something close to worm or creepy crawley slimey thing". To me this seems to fit pretty close to what the other houses think about the Jhereg, does it not? Lastly, he said that "-ereg-" (prefix?/suffix?) he associates with things that creep and crawl and the actual action of creeping and crawling, though other words use the "-ereg-" it is just what he would think of ("first thing that would come to mind") if it was all he had to go from. So, without going into more detail, that was my language lesson for the day from dear-old-gramps. It sure does bring back memories of him telling "ewwey-gooey was a worm..." in Hungarian when I was em, four(?), younger(?), heh, oh yeah and memories of the "gripsnitch", though no one probably remembers or knows a damn thing about what I'm talking about, I just thought I'd share it with you all. Oh, yeah, if anyone knows this all to be wrong, I mean the language thing, not the brain of Steven Brust, (as I am sure that would take several minds collaborating for a century before getting anywhere, and then not even far), let me know, I could always use an opportunity to talk to my grandpa, and get him to talk about things he forgot long ago. _________________________________________________________________ Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Oct 29 10:49:11 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 29 Oct 2002 12:49:11 -0600 Subject: Google hits on "jhereg" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mark A Mandel writes: > On Tue, 29 Oct 2002, David Silberstein wrote: > > #The Hungarian for "child" is "gyerek" ("gy" is sounded something like > #"dy", according to the intro to "Brokedown Palace") > # > #http://consulting.medios.fi/dictionary/?language=hu&search=gyerek&allow=true > # > #So I find myself wondering if SKZB changed the pronunciation of the > #word slightly ("dy" -> "zh", "k" -> "g") to "jhereg". > > I'd noticed that, but I haven't asked him. Has anyone? It wouldn't make > much sense in terms of the Houses as we know them by this point, but in > terms of just _Jhereg_ it would. That's the first book, and much of it > involves not only Vlad's childhood and coming of age, but also his > "adoption" and raising of Loiosh. That house was originally named "vereg". The name got changed when the books started being written to avoid potential rights issues. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From davids at kithrup.com Tue Oct 29 11:53:15 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 11:53:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Google hits on "jhereg" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Oct 2002, H.T. -- L.M.C. wrote: [A genuine magyar nagypa!] > >I could always use an opportunity to talk to my grandpa, and >get him to talk about things he forgot long ago. > Hey, cool! If you have time, maybe you could find out if he knows any folktales. And specifically, if he knows anything about taltos, taltos horses and maybe garaboncias. :-) A Hungarian folklore link which look interesting, but I've never been able to translate fully: http://terebess.hu/keletkultinfo/dioszegi.html#1 (page text mirrored at: http://mektukor.oszk.hu/limbo/keszul/Andi/dioszegi/dioszegi.html which you may need because the first link seems to be down) Especially this part, which looks like it's suggesting that Faust was either a garaboncias or a taltos: A magyar "garabonci?s" nem m?s, mint a t?ltos. Tudom?ny?t akarat?n k?v?l, sot akarata ellen?re, elore val? kiv?laszt?s ?s k?nyszer ?tj?n kapja a "term?szetf?l?tti hatalmakt?l". Viszont az eur?pai garabonci?s "di?k" mindezt a maga akarat?b?l, tudatosan tanulja meg. Vagyis Faust val?ban ?s hitelesen n?met. Berceli J?sk?b?l ?s sok-sok elodj?bol sohasem lehetett volna Faust. Az o l?bnyomaik egyenesen Szib?ria f?ves puszt?ira vezetnek. From tyan at twcny.rr.com Tue Oct 29 12:57:24 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 15:57:24 -0500 Subject: Google hits on "jhereg" In-Reply-To: (David Silberstein's message of "Tue, 29 Oct 2002 00:51:17 -0800 (PST)") References: Message-ID: David Silberstein writes: > On Mon, 21 Oct 2002, Nytemuse wrote: > >>This kind of leads me to wonder if "jhereg" perhaps means something >>outside of Brust's books. Anyone know? > > Google is supersaturated with references to Brust's stuff (or the RPG > which was derived from his stuff), so that's no help. ? I'm not sure what you mean. Can't you just ask Google to reject a bunch of keywords, e.g. type in jhereg -brust -dragaera -dragaeran etc.? Although it *is* true that since Google allows only 10 search terms (last I checked), so maybe that will screw things up. -snip- - tky From ambyrglow at softhome.net Tue Oct 29 13:06:16 2002 From: ambyrglow at softhome.net (Claire Rojstaczer) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 16:06:16 -0500 Subject: Google hits on "jhereg" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > Google is supersaturated with references to Brust's stuff (or the RPG >> which was derived from his stuff), so that's no help. > >? I'm not sure what you mean. Can't you just ask Google to reject a >bunch of keywords, e.g. type in > > jhereg -brust -dragaera -dragaeran > >etc.? Although it *is* true that since Google allows only 10 search >terms (last I checked), so maybe that will screw things up. > >-snip- > >- tky That particular search string still pulls up 3,400 results, the first few of which, at least, seem to be for a vaguely Dragaeran-related RPG. Curiously, Amazon's page for Jhereg also comes up in the top 10, despite having "Brust" smack in the middle of it. Hmph. Claire From davids at kithrup.com Tue Oct 29 22:17:10 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 22:17:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Questions about genealogy & stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Oct 2002, David Silberstein wrote: > > - What is Noish-pa's real full name? > Incidentally, I had one last thought about this: Perhaps "Taltos" *is* his full name. It may be, for example, that he does not know himself who his family is, and therefore he has no patronymic. It's mentioned in "Dragon" that he served as a conscript soldier in an Eastern army. I wonder if that was the army in "Brokedown Palace" that Laszlo sent to deal with the maurauding Northmen? From eriktdahl at yahoo.com Wed Oct 30 08:52:39 2002 From: eriktdahl at yahoo.com (Erik Dahl) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 08:52:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Illegal Elder Sorcery Message-ID: <20021030165239.91855.qmail@web13706.mail.yahoo.com> Chris Olson (>, >>>), Kat (>>), Mark A Mandel (>>>>, >>>>>>) and I (>>>>>) wrote: >>>>>> Why a duck? >>>>> "Because it's dull, you twit; it'll hurt more." >>>> Obviously a gap in my education. Explenn, plizz? >>> I believe it's a reference to the Robin Hood movie >>> with the no-accent 'Hood... (why is his name escaping me >>> at the moment? >> Costner, I believe. > Thanks for the correction!! (I figured someone would know it!:) Sorry I was so arcane. This is the source of the quote. Lately, it has become my stock answer whenever someone asks "Why a _____?" and since the thread had become so frivolous I thought I'd follow suit. :) From spenn at shaw.ca Wed Oct 30 10:16:38 2002 From: spenn at shaw.ca (Sean) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 10:16:38 -0800 Subject: Google hits on "jhereg" References: Message-ID: <001b01c28040$7d4f0c70$883e5418@dontbenosy> I know that "Jereg" (Jhereg without an H) is a German surname, but I haven't been able to find a definition for it - I also didn't spend much time on it since it's likely coincidental. From jjm57 at cornell.edu Wed Oct 30 20:31:25 2002 From: jjm57 at cornell.edu (Jeremy Michel) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 23:31:25 -0500 Subject: Cracks and Shards Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021030233123.020584d0@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> I read a remark on cracks and shards about a coinage issue in teckla where vlad pays the girl 10 and 7, if you read further he actually does give the 7 coins to the inn keeper so the later explanation of Echeverri is very likely correct. -ME From mam at theworld.com Thu Oct 31 09:38:41 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:38:41 -0500 Subject: Cracks and Shards In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021030233123.020584d0@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Oct 2002, Jeremy Michel wrote: #I read a remark on cracks and shards about a coinage issue in teckla where #vlad pays the girl 10 and 7, if you read further he actually does give the #7 coins to the inn keeper so the later explanation of Echeverri is very #likely correct. -ME Oh, nice. Thank you. Can you find the page ref. for this? -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From FelixEisen at aol.com Fri Nov 1 06:35:09 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 09:35:09 EST Subject: NaNoWriMo Madness Message-ID: <139.16e20a68.2af3eb1d@aol.com> I don't believe I'm doing this. Yes, taking part in National Novel Writing Month, I have (perhaps foolishly) dedicated myself to slamming out 150,000 words in 30 days. For all of you who want to go watch my progress, point your finger, and snigger behind your hand, you can look me up at www.nanowrimo.com, author name 'The Wyrm Ouroboros'. If you happen to have published your own novels (*cough* Pam *cough* Steve *cough* Dave *cough cough*) and you want to give me advice, tips, suggestions, or encouragement, feel free to write me direct. :P :) If you think it's really good, you can tell your editor about me. ;) Knightmarshall Felix Surnamed Eisen, or "Iron Felix" Hand of Morr, The Order of Bones From calianng_graves at yahoo.com Fri Nov 1 18:52:42 2002 From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 18:52:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: NaNoWriMo Madness Message-ID: <20021102025242.82317.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com> Felix, You have my extreme condolences on your choice to commit suicide via brain anuerism, however, I wish you the very BEST of luck. If we do not hear from you by the 32nd day, I will send both the Mental Health people and the Coroner over to your house to check on you. Good luck in your madness and don't hurt yourself! Caliann *Owned and operated by the Grand Poohbah Cheese of the Universe* "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now From davids at kithrup.com Sun Nov 3 16:00:40 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 16:00:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Morrolan: Just a Big Softy, Really? Message-ID: Well, not exactly a *softy*. We know he's arrogant and ambitious, and more than willing to kill when it comes down to a fight. Yet I find myself wondering more and more whether he has actually used Blackwand to destroy anyone's soul. Vlad, of course, thinks Morrolan has, or would, perhaps because Vlad has committed Morganti murders himself, and figures that Morrolan is so much more badass than he himself is that it goes without saying that Morrolan would de-soul someone he was enraged at. Yet I note that there is strikingly little evidence in that direction (although I admittedly have not searched that intensely yet). Loraan is a prime example, of course. [1] There's others as well, I think - the Sorceress in Green is another example, whom he didn't even kill permanently [2]. In "Yendi", when Vlad is wondering whether Norathar & Cawti would have survived if Aliera & Morrolan had arrived in slightly different places, Morrolan does say that "I'd have used Blackwand", and Vlad shudders, thinking that Morrolan would have destroyed Norathar's soul. But besides all of the ways that Vlad has been wrong before, in this case Morrolan might have meant that since Blackwand was a sorcerous tool as well as a conventional weapon, he'd have cast a spell using it that would have made sure that Norathar died, perhaps unrevivifiably - but not necessarily destroyed her soul. At any rate, this notion seems more plausible in light of Morrolan's efforts to bend over backwards to temper (or soften, heh) his own nature. He has stringent non-permanent death rules set up for dueling in his domain, he only slaughtered a village of people because they had in fact committed a slaughter themselves, and he did in fact hire Lady Teldra, which gives him a whole lot of niceness points. Of course, he would probably never come out and *say*, "I don't usually destroy people's souls" because he thinks defending his actions is undignified. So Vlad probably thinks a whole lot more soldiers were desouled at the battle of Baritt's Tomb than is actually the case. Or have I overlooked something? [1] Yet another Loraan scenario - Blackwand swallows his soul, and Morrolan says "No! Bad girl! Let it go!". The soul is released, but is so mangled from having been inside a Morganti sword that normal revivification fails. [2] Incidentally, I wonder if Baritt has any friends or descendants who would make any effort to kill the Sorceress in Green dead permanently, once her role in his death came to light? From matthew at infodancer.org Sun Nov 3 16:17:56 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 18:17:56 -0600 Subject: Morrolan: Just a Big Softy, Really? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20021104001756.GD416@infodancer.org> On Sun, Nov 03, 2002 at 04:00:40PM -0800, David Silberstein wrote: > Well, not exactly a *softy*. We know he's arrogant and ambitious, and > more than willing to kill when it comes down to a fight. Yet I find > myself wondering more and more whether he has actually used Blackwand > to destroy anyone's soul. > > Vlad, of course, thinks Morrolan has, or would, perhaps because Vlad > has committed Morganti murders himself, and figures that Morrolan is > so much more badass than he himself is that it goes without saying > that Morrolan would de-soul someone he was enraged at. This is an excellent point. Given the Empire's attitude towards Morganti weapons, I suspect that ownership by a noble might well be tolerated, but use -- especially regular use -- would not be. Great Weapons might be matters of less hassle than ordinary Morganti weapons precisely because they can choose not to devour the soul. Furthermore, Morrolan has shown in the past quite a bit of civility and decorum even in matters of combat (cf the paths of the dead, etc). I doubt he is truly wroth with most of the people he kills. Offended, perhaps, but not enraged. Vlad may well be the only one of his compatriots to have actually used a Morganti weapon to destroy someone's soul, and it will probably have interesting effects on him when he realizes this. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From FelixEisen at aol.com Sun Nov 3 17:33:33 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 20:33:33 EST Subject: Morrolan: Just a Big Softy, Really? Message-ID: <157.16e5eda0.2af7286d@aol.com> matthew at infodancer.org writes: > Vlad may well be the only one of his compatriots to have actually > used a Morganti weapon to destroy someone's soul, and it will > probably have interesting effects on him when he realizes this. Oddly, I doubt this. I -do- suspect that Sethra Lavode has destroyed her fair share of souls. I can see her acting for the gods in the way Vlad is used for assassinating 'problems' in the Jhereg -- 'This guy has been a continuing problem for the last X lives. Make it permanent.' And the Dzur hero comes up the mountain to find Sethra Lavode standing there, Iceflame alive in her hand ... Knightmarshall Felix Surnamed Eisen, or "Iron Felix" Hand of Morr, The Order of Bones From irtheweasel at hotmail.com Sun Nov 3 17:48:40 2002 From: irtheweasel at hotmail.com (Wes) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 17:48:40 -0800 Subject: Morrolan: Just a Big Softy, Really? References: <157.16e5eda0.2af7286d@aol.com> Message-ID: Warning: ISSOLA spoilers > > Vlad may well be the only one of his compatriots to have actually > > used a Morganti weapon to destroy someone's soul, and it will > > probably have interesting effects on him when he realizes this. This would be interesting, but I think the biggest struggle that Vlad will have is that it is not polite to destroy someone's sole. Also, with Aliera's temper, I suspect that pathfinder has destroyed souls a plenty since it's acquisition. Of course, I can't think of a specific instance, but she hasn't had it very long really; only since DRAGON which in terms of drageareans isn't very long at all. So it might very well be possible for there to be a sort of unwritten code against destroying somebody's soul with a great weapon. This code though might be very loose as is implied at the end of Issola with Verra's reactions. She seemed generally fearful of what might be her fate. As a goddess, she would probably know about any sort of code like that. I still think though that the interesting internal struggle with Vlad regarding the use of Godslayer will be to do what is proper versus doing what is in Vlad's nature. From davids at kithrup.com Sun Nov 3 18:27:34 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 18:27:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Morrolan: Just a Big Softy, Really? In-Reply-To: <157.16e5eda0.2af7286d@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Nov 2002 FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: >matthew at infodancer.org writes: > >> Vlad may well be the only one of his compatriots to have actually >> used a Morganti weapon to destroy someone's soul, and it will >> probably have interesting effects on him when he realizes this. >Oddly, I doubt this. I -do- suspect that Sethra Lavode has destroyed >her fair share of souls. I can see her acting for the gods in the >way Vlad is used for assassinating 'problems' in the Jhereg -- 'This >guy has been a continuing problem for the last X lives. Make it >permanent.' And the Dzur hero comes up the mountain to find Sethra >Lavode standing there, Iceflame alive in her hand ... > In fact, I think destroying a soul is so drastic, so permanent, that the gods may have requested that the bearers of Great Weapons *not* implement that solution *unless* the gods directly request it. After all, judging souls for their use is the gods' *job* - and once a soul is in the Paths of the Dead, they (the gods) seem to have almost complete control over what happens to that soul. If they want to destroy a soul, I think they can do so themselves. So Sethra has probably taken that step a lot less frequently than you might imagine. I can just see Verra telling this to Aliera after Aliera gets hold of Pathfinder ... "Now, I know you want to try out your new toy right away, dear, but there are some conditions you are going to have follow..." [Aliera rolls her eyes and says, in exasperated tones:] "Fine, fine. I won't destroy anyone's soul without your permission. I promise, mother. There, are you happy now?" From matthew at infodancer.org Sun Nov 3 18:25:25 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 20:25:25 -0600 Subject: Morrolan: Just a Big Softy, Really? In-Reply-To: <157.16e5eda0.2af7286d@aol.com> References: <157.16e5eda0.2af7286d@aol.com> Message-ID: <20021104022525.GA618@infodancer.org> On Sun, Nov 03, 2002 at 08:33:33PM -0500, FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: > matthew at infodancer.org writes: > > Vlad may well be the only one of his compatriots to have actually > > used a Morganti weapon to destroy someone's soul, and it will > > probably have interesting effects on him when he realizes this. > Oddly, I doubt this. I -do- suspect that Sethra Lavode has destroyed her > fair share of souls. I can see her acting for the gods in the way Vlad is > used for assassinating 'problems' in the Jhereg -- 'This guy has been a > continuing problem for the last X lives. Make it permanent.' And the Dzur > hero comes up the mountain to find Sethra Lavode standing there, Iceflame > alive in her hand ... This would preclude sending the Dzur hero back as a teckla. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From davids at kithrup.com Sun Nov 3 18:42:14 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 18:42:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Morrolan: Just a Big Softy, Really? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Nov 2002, Wes wrote: > Warning: ISSOLA spoilers [Big spoiler - skip now if you havn't read it yet] > I still think though that the interesting internal struggle with >Vlad regarding the use of Godslayer will be to do what is proper >versus doing what is in Vlad's nature. > You know, thinking about how the Great Weapons love their bearers, and are determined to protect them, I find myself wondering if Vlad will even want to use the soul-destroying feature of Godslayer that often. If he kills his enemy at all, he's already won, and is in no danger - going furthur than that is quite literally overkill. And that's besides the fact that he doesn't want to distress Lady Teldra by making her do something so unnecessary & impolite. That may be a factor which drives Sethra, Aliera & Morrolan not using the soulkilling option as well. Simply killing their enemies may be sufficient; destroying their souls *as well* is... excessive, even for Dragons in the heat of rage. From FelixEisen at aol.com Sun Nov 3 20:22:07 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 23:22:07 EST Subject: Great Weapons (Issola Spoilers) Message-ID: <1ba.8deb17c.2af74fef@aol.com> davids at kithrup.com writes: > ... he doesn't want to distress Lady Teldra by > making her do something so unnecessary & impolite. I think you're overestimating -- or underestimating -- Vlad and Teldra. I mean, consider their conversation throughout the book. Clearly, Teldra respects Vlad, even considers him to be a sharp cookie. Vlad knows, either through experience or instinct, what is appropriate at what times. People keep thinking of Teldra and the Issola in general as getting all distressed over impoliteness. I think that the generalized 'you' have it wrong on that count. The Issola don't concern themselves with politeness, they concern themselves with what is -appropriate-. Paraphrased, Vlad says, "Lady Teldra. Was that polite??" Teldra smiles and replies, "No, but it was appropriate." As she points out, there are a lot of things that Vlad could do that, in various circumstances, are -appropriate-. To the guy on the road who says, 'Move aside, whiskers,' Vlad could bow and scrape, tell him to fuck off, bust his kneecaps, or stick a dagger in his left eye. All of them can be appropriate actions -- certainly not all of them can be described as -polite-. Consider the line from the Cycle: 'Issola strikes from courtly bow'. Striking, in whatever manner, isn't POLITE. It can, however, be appropriate. What is appropriate when a Dragonlord insults you, busts up your home, and takes your things? Declaring war on him. What about a Dzurlord? Challenging him. How about a Jhereg? Sending an assassin after him. How about a Phoenix? Hey, who knows, right now there's only Zerika. Maybe you send her a bottle of wine, work that entire 'decay' angle, you know? Whatever an Issola does, it is supposed to be APPROPRIATE. That isn't the same as polite. Of all the Houses, the Issola and the Yendi may be the most dangerous, because you never see it coming. But at least with the Yendi, you expect them to be devious; the Issola don't strike people that way, because they forget that the easiest way to seize a castle is to take it from within... Knightmarshall Felix Surnamed Eisen, or "Iron Felix" Hand of Morr, The Order of Bones From rone at ennui.org Sun Nov 3 21:19:19 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 21:19:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Morrolan: Just a Big Softy, Really? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021104051920.071E926E2E@boredom.ennui.org> Wes writes: Warning: ISSOLA spoilers > > Vlad may well be the only one of his compatriots to have actually > > used a Morganti weapon to destroy someone's soul, and it will > > probably have interesting effects on him when he realizes this. This would be interesting, but I think the biggest struggle that Vlad will have is that it is not polite to destroy someone's sole. Destroying someone's sole would leave them with only one foot to stand on... Regardless, i should point out that Lady Teldra didn't seem to have any compunction regarding using a Morganti weapon on the Jenoine. It is my opinion that people are making too much of Vlad's "new politeness". He was already quite polite before his new weapon, as Lady Teldra pointed out during _Issola_. rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Sun Nov 3 21:41:53 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 23:41:53 -0600 Subject: Great Weapons (Issola Spoilers) References: <1ba.8deb17c.2af74fef@aol.com> Message-ID: FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: > davids at kithrup.com writes: >> ... he doesn't want to distress Lady Teldra by >> making her do something so unnecessary & impolite. > > I think you're overestimating -- or underestimating -- Vlad and > Teldra. I mean, consider their conversation throughout the book. > Clearly, Teldra respects Vlad, even considers him to be a sharp > cookie. Vlad knows, either through experience or instinct, what is > appropriate at what times. Vlad does know how to 'respond' rather well in various situations, but he clearly makes too many assumptions. For instance: something to site in reference would be in Yendi when he decides that it's time to get back to the office after recuperating while at Dzur mountain he clearly didn't realize it was inappropriate to teleport back near the office and walk back (the ambush he thought would be really unlikely because of it's cost to have done to him) Even though he was aware of the possible danger he didn't follow the path of total paranoia, then again this was important for us to see, later in that chapter he starts taking some appropriate actions regarding his weapons and cycling them out so as not to let them pick up his aura. Maybe in this example it is (his assumptions) forgivable to help us see Vlad learning because after all he was pretty fresh in the organization at that point and later we see him being unrelentlessly paranoid with reference to the phoenix stones and staying hidden. So I guess his assumptions have a good place, if he assumes wrong he almost or does die (or it doesn't really matter, he spends most of his time trying to stay alive anyway) after which he learns that he was wrong about something and either continues the cycle by making a new assumption or flat out learning what to do in that kind of situation or one like it. after having enough 'learning experiences' you'll find many that are relevant to another which help his assumptions to be more accurate. This seems fundamental to Vlad's character. Others see Vlad as making the right actions for the situation as he often does but we can see breaks in this and see where him being wrong yet those around him find his actions appropriate, *When Vlad bitches out Kragar in that same chapter you might notice that none of the proceeding crap would have happened if he had made the appropriate action when leaving Dzur mountain leaving me feeling like even though Vlad had some good points to make to Kragar and Kragar accepted it all as his fault. Kragar was even likely convinced Vlad acted appropriately I don't think Vlad thought so entirely, remember that Vlad wanted to show Kragar a little trust to in a way apologize in not so many words. He's the boss he's got to look like he's doing the right things, and he knows that appearance is rather important. The fact that he pays attention helps. From davids at kithrup.com Sun Nov 3 23:43:00 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 23:43:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Morrolan: Just a Big Softy, Really? In-Reply-To: <20021104051920.071E926E2E@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Nov 2002, definitely what wrote: >Wes writes: > > Warning: ISSOLA spoilers > > > > > > > > >Regardless, i should point out that Lady Teldra didn't seem to have >any compunction regarding using a Morganti weapon on the Jenoine. > Well, yes. In that case, the Jenoine are so tough that that was the only possible way of even hurting it (and you'll note that it was only distracted and hurt, not killed). It was, in fact, an appropriate action. They were fighting an enemy. Negotiation was no longer an option. And it was correct for her to attack the enemy when she saw the opportunity. If Vlad & Lady Teldra ever go up against a Jenoine again, or a god, I'm sure that the appropriate action will be to use whatever level of power it takes to end the enemy as a threat. >It is my opinion that people are making too much of Vlad's "new >politeness". He was already quite polite before his new weapon, >as Lady Teldra pointed out during _Issola_. I suspect she was being courteous in her acceptance of his choice of behaviors. :-) Anyway, my point is that I don't think he will be using Lady Teldra to destroy people's souls all the time, even if they are his enemies, because it would be an inappropriate use of force if they aren't gods or Jenoine. I could be wrong, of course. Time will no doubt tell. From FelixEisen at aol.com Mon Nov 4 00:38:18 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 03:38:18 EST Subject: Great Weapons (Issola Spoilers) Message-ID: <19d.b5f1784.2af78bfa@aol.com> voltronalpha at hotmail.com writes: > Vlad does know how to 'respond' rather well in various situations, but he > clearly makes too many assumptions. ** vast number of examples deleted ** You're missing the point, here. Vlad does what he does in your examples because he is acting, not 'doing what is appropriate'. 'Doing what is appropriate' is, a matter of a social situation, not a matter of walking down the street. After Sethra revivifies him, he does what is appropriate; he thanks Sethra and leaves Dzur Mountain. What he does AFTER that has nothing to do with a social situation. You might say that Vlad has an unerring sense of propriety, but can fuck up with the best of 'em. Don't presume that his well-argued ability to act appropriately means that everything he does is magic. Be a damn boring series, that way. Knightmarshall Felix Surnamed Eisen, or "Iron Felix" Hand of Morr, The Order of Bones From RuhlenR at missouri.edu Mon Nov 4 06:58:30 2002 From: RuhlenR at missouri.edu (Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student)) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 08:58:30 -0600 Subject: Undead Message-ID: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E012454CB@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> > -----Original Message----- > From: David Silberstein [mailto:davids at kithrup.com] > > [1] Yet another Loraan scenario - Blackwand swallows his soul, and > Morrolan says "No! Bad girl! Let it go!". The soul is released, > but is so mangled from having been inside a Morganti sword that > normal revivification fails. This reminds me of something that keeps bothering me. Loraan came back as undead. It might be Teldra, or Sethra, who tells Vlad in _Issola_ that the point of the Paths of the Dead with all its games, and the gods, is to sort out souls and save those who might be helpful in the fight against the Jenoine and reincarnate them or send them back as undead. She doesn't say this is the only way to become undead (I think it was Teldra) but it's the only way we've heard about so far. What if some god thought Loraan would be really helpful against the Jenoine and sent him back undead? I bet Vlad just really pissed that god off. And I bet it wasn't Verra. Maybe Barlen, or Trout. Rachel From scs at di.org Wed Nov 6 09:42:27 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 12:42:27 -0500 Subject: Just a Big Softy, Really? Message-ID: <20021106174227.GA13380@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On the whole, I doubt that Morrolan or Aliera or anyone else with a Great Weapon has engaged in wholesale (or even massive retail) destruction of souls. It's been made very clear that Great Weapons are *capable* of not consuming souls. On the other hand, Morganti weapons which are *not* Great Weapons seem to always destroy the soul. And the destruction of souls use is frowned upon with varying degrees by almost all groups (nit-pickers: note the 'almost'). From the various comments in the texts, there seems to be no stigma whatsoever against carrying and using a Great Weapon. Sethra Lavode alludes in ISSOLA that possession of one will ultimately drive the holder to live up to the various responsibilities of ownership and use (whatever the heck they are), and that this is an honorable thing. Taking all of that together, I conjecture that the holders of Great Weapons usually refrain from destroying the souls of their victims. -- "BSD is for people that love Unix. Linux is for people that hate windows." Anonymous Coward on 09-24-02 04:50 PM (#4322372), on Slashdot From scs at di.org Wed Nov 6 09:45:47 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 12:45:47 -0500 Subject: Just a Big Softy, Really? Message-ID: <20021106174547.GA13393@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Wes writes: > . . . I think the biggest struggle that Vlad will > have is that it is not polite to destroy someone's sole. There's nothing wrong with destroying someones sole; it's not that tasty a fish. But destroying their salmon would indeed be a sin. The jury is still out on cod. (Sorry, I couldn't resist. No spelling flame intended, see .sigfile.) -- "The above text is a natural product. Slight variations in spelling and grammar enhance its individual character & beauty and in no way are to be considered flaws or defects." -- from the .sigfile of Jan Dimasi From books at bofh.com Wed Nov 6 10:13:53 2002 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 11:13:53 -0700 Subject: New POTD review... Message-ID: <20021106111353.A21734@bofh.com> Look at www.bn.com to see about preordering and saw there is a critic review that has more details on the book. A few may be spoilers, so consider yourself forewarned. http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=0312864787 -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From scs at di.org Wed Nov 6 12:15:06 2002 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 15:15:06 -0500 Subject: Paths publication date? Message-ID: <20021106201506.GA16014@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> OK, we're now into November. What day should I run down to the local Borders and pick up my copy of "Paths of the Dead"? From den at monger.net Wed Nov 6 12:14:20 2002 From: den at monger.net (Dennis Higbee) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 12:14:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Paths publication date? In-Reply-To: <20021106201506.GA16014@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Nov 2002, Steve Simmons wrote: > OK, we're now into November. What day should I run down to the local > Borders and pick up my copy of "Paths of the Dead"? According to Amazon, December 1. (Dosage: Information should be taken with a grain of salt.) -Dennis From mbogen at stagnito.com Wed Nov 6 12:32:41 2002 From: mbogen at stagnito.com (Matt Bogen) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 14:32:41 -0600 Subject: Paths publication date? In-Reply-To: <20021106201506.GA16014@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: Last time I check Amazon (a week ago), pub date was 12/1/02 - strange, because that's a Sunday! I'll leave it to the gremlins of virtual booksellers to explain that one. I already have $25 tucked away in a safe place for this book. - Matt Bogen -----Original Message----- From: Steve Simmons [mailto:scs at di.org] Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 2:15 PM To: Dragaera Mailing List Subject: Paths publication date? OK, we're now into November. What day should I run down to the local Borders and pick up my copy of "Paths of the Dead"? From pgranzeau at cox.net Wed Nov 6 13:17:21 2002 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 16:17:21 -0500 Subject: Tor books Web site abandoned? Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20021106161532.01d920b0@pop.east.cox.net> Does anyone know why Tor has seemingly abandoned their Web site? I notice the last time anyone seems to have maintained it was in mid-summer; the publishing schedule ends in August, 2002 (three months ago). -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From rone at ennui.org Wed Nov 6 13:34:27 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 13:34:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tor books Web site abandoned? In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20021106161532.01d920b0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <20021106213427.9729626E2C@boredom.ennui.org> Peter H. Granzeau writes: Does anyone know why Tor has seemingly abandoned their Web site? I notice the last time anyone seems to have maintained it was in mid-summer; the publishing schedule ends in August, 2002 (three months ago). No idea, and the published e-mail addresses don't work. I've e-mailed pnh directly as well, but got no response. I can only guess they're ultra-busy. rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From mneme at io.com Wed Nov 6 13:57:10 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 15:57:10 -0600 Subject: Tor books Web site abandoned? In-Reply-To: <20021106213427.9729626E2C@boredom.ennui.org> References: <5.1.1.6.2.20021106161532.01d920b0@pop.east.cox.net> <20021106213427.9729626E2C@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <15817.36918.228095.791864@fnord.io.com> definitely what writes: >No idea, and the published e-mail addresses don't work. I've e-mailed >pnh directly as well, but got no response. I can only guess they're >ultra-busy. Probably; I'll see I can ask about it tonight if I get an opprotunity. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From irtheweasel at hotmail.com Wed Nov 6 14:02:53 2002 From: irtheweasel at hotmail.com (Wes) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 14:02:53 -0800 Subject: Just a Big Softy, Really? References: <20021106174547.GA13393@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: > Wes writes: > > > . . . I think the biggest struggle that Vlad will > > have is that it is not polite to destroy someone's sole. > Steve Simmons writes: > There's nothing wrong with destroying someones sole; it's not that tasty a > fish. > > But destroying their salmon would indeed be a sin. The jury is still out > on cod. > > (Sorry, I couldn't resist. No spelling flame intended, see .sigfile.) > -- > "The above text is a natural product. Slight variations in spelling and > grammar enhance its individual character & beauty and in no way are to be > considered flaws or defects." -- from the .sigfile of Jan Dimasi > Actually, I noticed that little error shortly after pressing send. I do however appreciate the humor of your reply. *enjoys fishing immensely* Wes From lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com Thu Nov 7 07:34:57 2002 From: lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com (Lowki Liesmith) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 10:34:57 -0500 Subject: Paths publication date? Message-ID: I talked to a manager at my local borders, and she reads the series also and told me in the third week of november. Oh God I can't wait any longer!!!! --lowkiliesmith >From: "Matt Bogen" >To: "Dragaera Mailing List" >Subject: RE: Paths publication date? >Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 14:32:41 -0600 > >Last time I check Amazon (a week ago), pub date was 12/1/02 - strange, >because that's a Sunday! I'll leave it to the gremlins of virtual >booksellers to explain that one. > >I already have $25 tucked away in a safe place for this book. > >- Matt Bogen > >-----Original Message----- >From: Steve Simmons [mailto:scs at di.org] >Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 2:15 PM >To: Dragaera Mailing List >Subject: Paths publication date? > > >OK, we're now into November. What day should I run down to the local >Borders and pick up my copy of "Paths of the Dead"? _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com Thu Nov 7 07:41:30 2002 From: lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com (Lowki Liesmith) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 10:41:30 -0500 Subject: the next vlad book? Message-ID: I'm sure this question has been asked about a million times, and I have asked it myself once, but when? I've been reading the wheel of time for the last few months since I finished Issola (oh man was that a good book). that series is quite addicting but the taltos series is ten times more. its like a drug and i need more to stay happy. --lowkiliesmith _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From casey at trinityhartford.org Thu Nov 7 09:18:22 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 12:18:22 -0500 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I'm sure this question has been asked about a million times, and I > have asked it myself once, but when? I've been reading the wheel > of time for the last few months since I finished Issola (oh man > was that a good book). that series is quite addicting but the > taltos series is ten times more. its like a drug and i need more > to stay happy. > --lowkiliesmith ???? Issola _is_ in the (Vlad) Taltos series. POTD is the first volume of a new series that follows The Phoenix Guard and Five Hundred Years After From rone at ennui.org Thu Nov 7 09:40:11 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 09:40:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021107174011.8584226E2C@boredom.ennui.org> Lowki Liesmith writes: I'm sure this question has been asked about a million times, and I have asked it myself once, but when? I've been reading the wheel of time for the last few months since I finished Issola (oh man was that a good book). that series is quite addicting but the taltos series is ten times more. its like a drug and i need more to stay happy. At Conjecture, Steve gave no indication that he'd even started writing it. Sorry, buddy! rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Nov 7 10:52:30 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 10:52:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: the next vlad book? Message-ID: <200211071852.gA7IqUC03447@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > that series is quite addicting but the taltos series is ten times more. its like > a drug and i need more to stay happy. > --lowkiliesmith Hear that? The man NEEDS his Vlad-Crack!!! I believe Brust will be working on it coming up soon. Working on Viscount right now (IIRC). On a slightly related note: At Conjecture, Brust read some of Viscount during a reading. Which book did he read from? Not the November-release one. Oh no. He had to read from the NEXT one. The one that won't be out for ages!! He's such a bastard... (and I mean that in the greatest possible way....:) ~Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From egyptianbloom at yahoo.com Thu Nov 7 12:01:56 2002 From: egyptianbloom at yahoo.com (Karin Bassett) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 12:01:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021107200156.78632.qmail@web21308.mail.yahoo.com> In my wildest fantasies it will be the one where Vlad and Cawti get back together, he finally sees his kid and then travels to the East with nosh-pa but then again Brust in a bastad(in the sexist way) and will probably just tease us for years... --- Lowki Liesmith wrote: > I'm sure this question has been asked about a > million times, and I have > asked it myself once, but when? I've been reading > the wheel of time for the > last few months since I finished Issola (oh man was > that a good book). that > series is quite addicting but the taltos series is > ten times more. its like > a drug and i need more to stay happy. > --lowkiliesmith > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 > months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 From egyptianbloom at yahoo.com Thu Nov 7 12:04:15 2002 From: egyptianbloom at yahoo.com (Karin Bassett) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 12:04:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <20021107200156.78632.qmail@web21308.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20021107200415.28284.qmail@web21304.mail.yahoo.com> shoot, I meant "he is a bastard", I knew I should have studied in high school.lol. --- Karin Bassett wrote: > In my wildest fantasies it will be the one where > Vlad > and Cawti get back together, he finally sees his kid > and then travels to the East with nosh-pa > but then again Brust in a bastad(in the sexist way) > and will probably just tease us for years... > > > > > --- Lowki Liesmith > wrote: > > I'm sure this question has been asked about a > > million times, and I have > > asked it myself once, but when? I've been reading > > the wheel of time for the > > last few months since I finished Issola (oh man > was > > that a good book). that > > series is quite addicting but the taltos series is > > ten times more. its like > > a drug and i need more to stay happy. > > --lowkiliesmith > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 > > months FREE* > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos > http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Nov 7 12:32:01 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 12:32:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: the next vlad book? Message-ID: <200211072032.gA7KW1C26710@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > shoot, I meant "he is a bastard", I knew I should have > studied in high school.lol. Oh, no. He's a "bastad'", too... (And now that I've had a semi-request for the story...:) At Conjecture, Brust was playing guitar and singing songs in his room Saturday night (holding Court, basicly:) and he dedicated a song to me. Which was great! What was the song?: "Hard Lovin' Loser" by Richard Farina (lyrics, if you're interested: http://sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/pages/tiHARDLOSE.html I tried REALLY hard to be offended, but I don't think it came across right through my huge smile and burning cheeks... Yeah, he's a bastad' alright... It takes one to know one, afterall... ;) Chris "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, son." - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm From kalio_plaid at yahoo.ca Thu Nov 7 15:00:47 2002 From: kalio_plaid at yahoo.ca (Kalio Plaid) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 18:00:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021107230047.56177.qmail@web40810.mail.yahoo.com> >???? Issola _is_ in the (Vlad) Taltos series. I think that by "that series is quite addicting", Lowki was referring to _The Wheel of Time_, rather than Issola. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Nov 7 20:55:49 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 07 Nov 2002 22:55:49 -0600 Subject: Tor books Web site abandoned? In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20021106161532.01d920b0@pop.east.cox.net> References: <5.1.1.6.2.20021106161532.01d920b0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: "Peter H. Granzeau" writes: > Does anyone know why Tor has seemingly abandoned their Web site? I > notice the last time anyone seems to have maintained it was in > mid-summer; the publishing schedule ends in August, 2002 (three months > ago). I think it comes down to "because it's a low-priority job for people (pnh mostly I think) with many other responsibilities". -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From rone at ennui.org Thu Nov 7 21:31:46 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 21:31:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tor books Web site abandoned? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021108053146.C4C5126E2C@boredom.ennui.org> David Dyer-Bennet writes: "Peter H. Granzeau" writes: > Does anyone know why Tor has seemingly abandoned their Web site? I > notice the last time anyone seems to have maintained it was in > mid-summer; the publishing schedule ends in August, 2002 (three months > ago). I think it comes down to "because it's a low-priority job for people (pnh mostly I think) with many other responsibilities". They could probably hire a teenager once a month to do updates and pay him in pizza... rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From ambyrglow at softhome.net Thu Nov 7 21:37:10 2002 From: ambyrglow at softhome.net (Claire Rojstaczer) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 00:37:10 -0500 Subject: Tor books Web site abandoned? In-Reply-To: <20021108053146.C4C5126E2C@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20021108053146.C4C5126E2C@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: >David Dyer-Bennet writes: > "Peter H. Granzeau" writes: > > Does anyone know why Tor has seemingly abandoned their Web site? I > > notice the last time anyone seems to have maintained it was in > > mid-summer; the publishing schedule ends in August, 2002 (three months > > ago). > I think it comes down to "because it's a low-priority job for people > (pnh mostly I think) with many other responsibilities". > >They could probably hire a teenager once a month to do updates and pay >him in pizza... > >rone Or chocolate. Chocolate is good. I'd probably do it for chocolate. . . . Claire, resident teenager. From egyptianbloom at yahoo.com Thu Nov 7 23:27:58 2002 From: egyptianbloom at yahoo.com (Karin Bassett) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 23:27:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tor books Web site abandoned? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021108072758.8380.qmail@web21301.mail.yahoo.com> --- Claire Rojstaczer wrote: > >David Dyer-Bennet writes: > > "Peter H. Granzeau" writes: > > > Does anyone know why Tor has seemingly > abandoned their Web site? I > > > notice the last time anyone seems to have > maintained it was in > > > mid-summer; the publishing schedule ends in > August, 2002 (three months > > > ago). > > I think it comes down to "because it's a > low-priority job for people > > (pnh mostly I think) with many other > responsibilities". > > > >They could probably hire a teenager once a month to > do updates and pay > >him in pizza... > > > >rone > > Or chocolate. Chocolate is good. I'd probably do > it for chocolate. . . . I'll do it for chocolate, how much are we talking here? (I'll do a lot for dark chocolate.) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 From pyranf at attbi.com Thu Nov 7 23:50:07 2002 From: pyranf at attbi.com (Pyran Firebrand) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 23:50:07 -0800 Subject: Just a Big Softy, Really? In-Reply-To: <20021106174227.GA13380@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <000001c286fb$75640e40$749de60c@shitstorm> > On the whole, I doubt that Morrolan or Aliera or anyone else > with a Great > Weapon has engaged in wholesale (or even massive retail) destruction > of souls. It's been made very clear that Great Weapons are *capable* > of not consuming souls. On the other hand, Morganti weapons which are > *not* Great Weapons seem to always destroy the soul. And the > destruction > of souls use is frowned upon with varying degrees by almost all groups If I remember correctly, Vlad mentions at some point that Great Weapons are sentient enough to be able to *choose* whether or not to destroy a soul. Also, while the wielder of the Great Weapon likely has some say in the matter, that is not always the case. For example, in "Jhereg", Aliera says "I think I have a good chance of surviving..." So she, as a wielder, can't be certain how the sword would react. All this put together, I submit that the question is moot: in the end, it's the sword's choice. Later... -Ari From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Nov 8 00:39:11 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 02:39:11 -0600 Subject: Tor books Web site abandoned? In-Reply-To: <20021108072758.8380.qmail@web21301.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20021108072758.8380.qmail@web21301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20021108083911.GC7789@infodancer.org> On Thu, Nov 07, 2002 at 11:27:58PM -0800, Karin Bassett wrote: > > Or chocolate. Chocolate is good. I'd probably do > > it for chocolate. . . . > I'll do it for chocolate, how much are we talking > here? Just in case pnh is listening, I'd do it for preview copies. And I build *dynamic* websites for a living, so it would be worth it. :) -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From rick at 404.978.org Fri Nov 8 07:21:18 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 10:21:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: Tor books Web site abandoned? In-Reply-To: <20021108083911.GC7789@infodancer.org> References: <20021108072758.8380.qmail@web21301.mail.yahoo.com> <20021108083911.GC7789@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <2031.192.168.1.1.1036768878.squirrel@404.978.org> Matthew Hunter said: > On Thu, Nov 07, 2002 at 11:27:58PM -0800, Karin Bassett > wrote: >> > Or chocolate. Chocolate is good. I'd probably do >> > it for chocolate. . . . >> I'll do it for chocolate, how much are we talking >> here? > > Just in case pnh is listening, I'd do it for preview copies. And I > build *dynamic* websites for a living, so it would be worth it. :) This is more realistic... I'd definitely to it for BOOKS... not even preview copies... :) (Another site designer) -Rick From mam at theworld.com Fri Nov 8 08:26:55 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 11:26:55 -0500 Subject: Morrolan: Just a Big Softy, Really? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: (Catching up kind of late...) On Sun, 3 Nov 2002, Wes wrote: # Also, with #Aliera's temper, I suspect that pathfinder has destroyed souls a plenty #since it's acquisition. Of course, I can't think of a specific instance, #but she hasn't had it very long really; only since DRAGON which in terms of #drageareans isn't very long at all. Vlad tells us though -- I forget where and I'm AFB (away from books); maybe when he's introducing us to Aliera in _Jhereg_ -- that although she continually issues challenges over perceived comments on her height, "she doesn't hold a grudge-- she almost always revivifies them afterward" (approx. quote). That hardly sounds like the level of viciousness that would destroy her opponent's soul, which even the Organization is extremely reluctant to do. I'd say that killing the body satisfies her bloodthirstiness. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Nov 8 09:38:15 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 12:38:15 -0500 Subject: Tor books Web site abandoned? In-Reply-To: <2031.192.168.1.1.1036768878.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: On Friday, November 8, 2002, at 10:21 AM, Rick Castello wrote: > Matthew Hunter said: >> On Thu, Nov 07, 2002 at 11:27:58PM -0800, Karin Bassett >> wrote: >>>> Or chocolate. Chocolate is good. I'd probably do >>>> it for chocolate. . . . >>> I'll do it for chocolate, how much are we talking >>> here? >> >> Just in case pnh is listening, I'd do it for preview copies. And I >> build *dynamic* websites for a living, so it would be worth it. :) > > This is more realistic... I'd definitely to it for BOOKS... > not even preview copies... :) > > (Another site designer) > > -Rick What's funny about the Tor web page is it will go idle for sometime, then it will get updated with a note that "we're back on track now, expect more updates" which never happens and the cycle repeats itself. ---- "We cannot accomplish great things - just little ones, with great love." -Mother Teresa From mam at theworld.com Fri Nov 8 19:59:27 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 22:59:27 -0500 Subject: the next vlad book? In-Reply-To: <200211072032.gA7KW1C26710@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Nov 2002, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: #"Hard Lovin' Loser" by Richard Farina # #(lyrics, if you're interested: # #http://sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/pages/tiHARDLOSE.html :-) Don't need 'em. He's the kind of guy puts on a motorcycle jacket and he weighs about a hundred and five. ... But when he takes off his shoes, it don't come as news that they're lining up in threes and in twos! Been listening to that one since it came out on vinyl, and I've got the vinyl in the living room. #I tried REALLY hard to be offended, but I don't think it #came across right through my huge smile and burning cheeks... Hee hee heeeee! -- Mark M. From mam at theworld.com Fri Nov 8 20:07:00 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 23:07:00 -0500 Subject: Just a Big Softy, Really? In-Reply-To: <000001c286fb$75640e40$749de60c@shitstorm> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Nov 2002, Pyran Firebrand wrote: #If I remember correctly, Vlad mentions at some point that Great Weapons #are sentient enough to be able to *choose* whether or not to destroy a #soul. Also, while the wielder of the Great Weapon likely has some say #in the matter, that is not always the case. For example, in "Jhereg", #Aliera says "I think I have a good chance of surviving..." So she, as a #wielder, can't be certain how the sword would react. That's different. One is whether a GW destroys the soul of a person killed with it; Morrolan says of Blackwand "It does what I tell it to" (in the Paths of the Dead). The other is how a GW preserves the life or soul of its owner/wielder, acting in this case against an ordinary Morganti blade, and the question of retrieving that soul from the weapon and restoring it to the body. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From kpadgett1 at cox.net Mon Nov 11 11:32:40 2002 From: kpadgett1 at cox.net (Ken Padgett) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 14:32:40 -0500 Subject: Next Viscount book? Message-ID: <20021111193226.NKLI16972.lakemtao08.cox.net@smtp.central.cox.net> Tor finally updated their Upcoming books schedule and it lists the next book in the series as The Lord of Castle Black next August. Did Sethra Lavode get moved to the end or am I confused? I certainly wouldn't discount the possibility of me being confused. Ken From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Nov 11 12:24:27 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 11 Nov 2002 14:24:27 -0600 Subject: Next Viscount book? In-Reply-To: <20021111193226.NKLI16972.lakemtao08.cox.net@smtp.central.cox.net> References: <20021111193226.NKLI16972.lakemtao08.cox.net@smtp.central.cox.net> Message-ID: Ken Padgett writes: > Tor finally updated their Upcoming books schedule and it lists the > next book in the series as The Lord of Castle Black next August. Did > Sethra Lavode get moved to the end or am I confused? I certainly > wouldn't discount the possibility of me being confused. Well, there's a bit of a story behind that. But the *answer* is that the order got confused in *everybody's* heads for a while, and was rescued at the last second when cover copy was being written and tnh noticed the books weren't in the order she remembered. Frantic research ensued, eventually getting things straightened out. I'm pleased to be able to say I contributed my share to the confusion at the time. And the current schedule matches my current understanding of the order of the books. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From casey at trinityhartford.org Mon Nov 11 12:37:13 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:37:13 -0500 Subject: Next Viscount book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David D-B. writ: > straightened out. I'm pleased to be able to say I contributed my > share to the confusion at the time. Which philosopher was it who said out of confusion comes knowledge? From mtiller at ntlworld.com Mon Nov 11 13:54:46 2002 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 21:54:46 -0000 Subject: Next Viscount book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c289cc$f5692e80$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> Confucicus? :-) -----Original Message----- From: Casey Rousseau [mailto:casey at trinityhartford.org] Sent: 11 November 2002 20:37 To: Dragaera Subject: RE: Next Viscount book? David D-B. writ: > straightened out. I'm pleased to be able to say I contributed my > share to the confusion at the time. Which philosopher was it who said out of confusion comes knowledge? From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Nov 11 14:35:06 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 11 Nov 2002 16:35:06 -0600 Subject: Next Viscount book? In-Reply-To: <000001c289cc$f5692e80$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> References: <000001c289cc$f5692e80$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> Message-ID: > > > straightened out. I'm pleased to be able to say I contributed my > > > share to the confusion at the time. > > > > Which philosopher was it who said out of confusion comes knowledge? > Confucicus? :-) If it wasn't, it should have been. This is related to the observation that it ain't the things you don't know that hurt you, it's the things you know that ain't so. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From jedijane at yahoo.com Mon Nov 11 16:19:05 2002 From: jedijane at yahoo.com (Michelle Goepp) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 16:19:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Brandy Question Message-ID: <20021112001905.51875.qmail@web12301.mail.yahoo.com> A plea for help, all you nitpickers out there! I was merrily re-reading along in the Vlad novels when I was brought up short by The Brandy Question. In either Jhereg or Yendi (I can't now recall which), Vlad makes the comment that he couldn't stand brandy, yet in Taltos he meets Kiera while tasting Fenarian brandies with all apparent enjoyment. Has something put him off the drink between these books? Am I missing something, or is something missing? Thanks in advance for your help, ladies and gentlement. ~M ===== Michelle "Black holes are where God divided by zero." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Mon Nov 11 16:58:36 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 19:58:36 -0500 Subject: The Brandy Question References: <20021112001905.51875.qmail@web12301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3DD0523C.1E388FEC@earthlink.net> Michelle Goepp wrote: > > A plea for help, all you nitpickers out there! I was > merrily re-reading along in the Vlad novels when I was > brought up short by The Brandy Question. In either > Jhereg or Yendi (I can't now recall which), Vlad makes > the comment that he couldn't stand brandy, yet in > Taltos he meets Kiera while tasting Fenarian brandies > with all apparent enjoyment. Has something put him > off the drink between these books? Am I missing > something, or is something missing? I don't remember Vlad saying that he doesn't like brandy; I just remember that he got annoyed that Dragaerans called it wine. Naturally, this doesn't answer your questions... *grin* Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From FelixEisen at aol.com Mon Nov 11 19:08:46 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 22:08:46 EST Subject: The Brandy Question Message-ID: <1a4.bb1140f.2b01cabe@aol.com> Jose Marquez wrote: > Michelle Goepp wrote: > > ... Has something put him > > off the drink between these books? Am I missing > > something, or is something missing? > I don't remember Vlad saying that he doesn't like brandy; I just > remember that he got annoyed that Dragaerans called it wine. Naturally, > this doesn't answer your questions... Well, it rather does -- yes, Michelle, you're missing something, or rather, you're mis-remembering something. Like Jose says, it isn't that Vlad doesn't like brandy, it's that he dislikes Dragaerans completely missing the point between brandy and its less potent cousin, wine. Dragaerans make no difference, calling everything wine; Vlad, and probably a lot of Easterners as well, probably get annoyed with yet another small difference between Dragaerans and humans. At least a few people, such as Kiera and Morrolan, know enough about it to be able to be polite to call it 'brandy'. Betcha Lady Teldra *knows too ... Knightmarshall Felix Surnamed Eisen, or "Iron Felix" Hand of Morr, The Order of Bones * -- Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean. From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Tue Nov 12 23:55:03 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 01:55:03 -0600 Subject: Tor books Web site abandoned? References: <20021108072758.8380.qmail@web21301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Karin Bassett wrote: > --- Claire Rojstaczer wrote: >>> David Dyer-Bennet writes: >>> "Peter H. Granzeau" writes: >>> > Does anyone know why Tor has seemingly abandoned their Web >>> site? I > notice the last time anyone seems to have >> maintained it was in >>> > mid-summer; the publishing schedule ends in August, 2002 (three >>> months > ago). >>> I think it comes down to "because it's a low-priority job for >>> people (pnh mostly I think) with many other >> responsibilities". >>> >>> They could probably hire a teenager once a month to do updates and >>> pay him in pizza... >>> >>> rone >> >> Or chocolate. Chocolate is good. I'd probably do >> it for chocolate. . . . > > I'll do it for chocolate, how much are we talking > here? > (I'll do a lot for dark chocolate.) > I was wondering why I've found only a few contracts lately, everyone in my field is willing to 'work for food' Hmph There I go again thinking people get paid to do web work. Seriously though If I had to make a guess I'd say whomever it is who usually would take care of web things doesn't do that work anymore, hasn't thought about it in a really long time, or a combination of both. Sometimes when a employee leaves a company they take with them the knowledge of how to access the companies webserver which is more often than not 'out of house' From books at bofh.com Wed Nov 13 00:20:10 2002 From: books at bofh.com (books at bofh.com) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 01:20:10 -0700 (MST) Subject: Tor books Web site abandoned? In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 13 Nov 2002 01:55:03 -0600" References: <20021108072758.8380.qmail@web21301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01KOSUXTXQP00006T4@chud.net> >Karin Bassett wrote: > >I was wondering why I've found only a few contracts lately, everyone in my >field is willing to 'work for food' Hmph There I go again thinking people >get paid to do web work. Seriously though If I had to make a guess I'd say >whomever it is who usually would take care of web things doesn't do that >work anymore, hasn't thought about it in a really long time, or a >combination of both. Sometimes when a employee leaves a company they take >with them the knowledge of how to access the companies webserver which is >more often than not 'out of house' The most difficult part of any web site design/maintenance is simple: Content The problem is that the people generating the content in their normal days doing their normal work are typically more interested in doing their normal work than updating a website to let people know what work they were doing. The process of actually updating a website is normally pretty trivial, and in the case of the Tor website (which I admire for it's simplicity) it appears to me that the content people and the website people are the same people, and are just too busy to be updating the website as often as us, in the screaming masses, would like. -Jot From casey at trinityhartford.org Wed Nov 13 07:11:54 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:11:54 -0500 Subject: Tor books Web site abandoned? Message-ID: Jot wrote: > The process of actually updating a website is normally pretty trivial, > and in the case of the Tor website (which I admire for it's simplicity) > it appears to me that the content people and the website people are > the same people, and are just too busy to be updating the website as > often as us, in the screaming masses, would like. Not to mention the fact that the incremental changes that mean so much to the screaming masses happen so much more slowly when it is what you do than when you look at it from the outside. Seems to me like the basic journalism problem. What's news to the outsider is just precisely what the insider has been living through. For the insider its old hat. From feaelin at kemenel.org Wed Nov 13 09:29:48 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 11:29:48 -0600 Subject: FW: Next Viscount book? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: David Dyer-Bennet [mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net] > Sent: Monday, 2002 November 11 16:35 > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Next Viscount book? > > This is related to the observation that it ain't the things > you don't know that hurt you, it's the things you know that ain't so. Hmm. Who said this? (Besides yourself on this list :) From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Nov 13 09:35:32 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 13 Nov 2002 11:35:32 -0600 Subject: Tor books Web site abandoned? In-Reply-To: References: <20021108072758.8380.qmail@web21301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: "Gametech" writes: > Karin Bassett wrote: > > --- Claire Rojstaczer wrote: > >>> David Dyer-Bennet writes: > >>> "Peter H. Granzeau" writes: > >>> > Does anyone know why Tor has seemingly abandoned their Web > >>> site? I > notice the last time anyone seems to have > >> maintained it was in > >>> > mid-summer; the publishing schedule ends in August, 2002 (three > >>> months > ago). > >>> I think it comes down to "because it's a low-priority job for > >>> people (pnh mostly I think) with many other > >> responsibilities". > >>> > >>> They could probably hire a teenager once a month to do updates and > >>> pay him in pizza... > >>> > >>> rone > >> > >> Or chocolate. Chocolate is good. I'd probably do > >> it for chocolate. . . . > > > > I'll do it for chocolate, how much are we talking > > here? > > (I'll do a lot for dark chocolate.) > I was wondering why I've found only a few contracts lately, everyone in my > field is willing to 'work for food' Hmph There I go again thinking people > get paid to do web work. Seriously though If I had to make a guess I'd say > whomever it is who usually would take care of web things doesn't do that > work anymore, hasn't thought about it in a really long time, or a > combination of both. Sometimes when a employee leaves a company they take > with them the knowledge of how to access the companies webserver which is > more often than not 'out of house' It says in the FAQ who the people are (Patrick and Teresa), and they're still there. And the schedule got updated recently, and now stretches out into the future (up through August 2003 I believe) again. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Nov 13 09:37:15 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 13 Nov 2002 11:37:15 -0600 Subject: FW: Next Viscount book? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Davis, Iain E." writes: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: David Dyer-Bennet [mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net] > > Sent: Monday, 2002 November 11 16:35 > > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > > Subject: Re: Next Viscount book? > > > > > > This is related to the observation that it ain't the things > > you don't know that hurt you, it's the things you know that ain't so. > > Hmm. Who said this? (Besides yourself on this list :) Will Rogers, or Mark Twain, or somebody, looks like. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From books at bofh.com Wed Nov 13 10:25:17 2002 From: books at bofh.com (books at bofh.com) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 11:25:17 -0700 (MST) Subject: Tor books Web site abandoned? In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:11:54 -0500" Message-ID: <01KOTG01MPRS00077J@chud.net> >Jot wrote: >> The process of actually updating a website is normally pretty trivial, >> and in the case of the Tor website (which I admire for it's simplicity) >> it appears to me that the content people and the website people are >> the same people, and are just too busy to be updating the website as >> often as us, in the screaming masses, would like. I would like to apologize to the entire list for allowing this gramatical monstrosity to escape my fingers. My only defense is that it was really early in the morning. :) -Jot From frank at exit.com Wed Nov 13 11:05:12 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 11:05:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tor books Web site abandoned? In-Reply-To: <01KOTG01MPRS00077J@chud.net> Message-ID: <200211131905.gADJ5C7v016081@realtime.exit.com> books at bofh.com wrote: > I would like to apologize to the entire list for allowing this > gramatical monstrosity to escape my fingers. My only defense ^^^^^^^^^^ > is that it was really early in the morning. :) "Grammatical." :-) -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From davids at kithrup.com Wed Nov 13 12:06:18 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 12:06:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Next Viscount book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11 Nov 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > >And the current schedule matches my current understanding of the order >of the books. > So the release schedule for books by Steven Brust looks like this? (cutting and pasting from the Tor web page, except for "Sethra Lavode", of course): New Hardcover releases: THE PATHS OF THE DEAD, Hardcover, 2002/12 THE LORD OF CASTLE BLACK, Hardcover, 2003/08 SETHRA LAVODE [1], Hardcover, 2004/?? [2] [1] Formerly titled "The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain" [2] I really hope that "??" == 03. PB releases: ISSOLA, MMPB, 2002/12 THE PATHS OF THE DEAD, MMPB, 2003/08 Republished: COWBOY FENG'S SPACE BAR AND GRILLE, Orb TPB., 2003/03 I am somewhat surprised that they're republishing CFSB&G rather than "Brokedown Palace", since (a) BP ties into the Vlad Taltos & Khaavren books and (b) BP is a better book (or at least I think so). From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Wed Nov 13 12:38:00 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 14:38:00 -0600 Subject: Tor books Web site abandoned? References: <20021108072758.8380.qmail@web21301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Gametech wrote: > David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >> "Gametech" writes: >> >>> Karin Bassett wrote: >>>> --- Claire Rojstaczer wrote: >>>>>> David Dyer-Bennet writes: >>>>>> "Peter H. Granzeau" writes: >>>>>> > Does anyone know why Tor has seemingly abandoned their Web >>>>>> site? I > notice the last time anyone seems to have maintained >>>>>> it was in > mid-summer; the publishing schedule ends in August, >>>>>> 2002 (three months > ago). >>>>>> I think it comes down to "because it's a low-priority job for >>>>>> people (pnh mostly I think) with many other >>>>> responsibilities". >>>>>> >>>>>> They could probably hire a teenager once a month to do updates >>>>>> and pay him in pizza... >>>>>> >>>>>> rone >>>>> >>>>> Or chocolate. Chocolate is good. I'd probably do >>>>> it for chocolate. . . . >>>> >>>> I'll do it for chocolate, how much are we talking >>>> here? >>>> (I'll do a lot for dark chocolate.) >> >>> I was wondering why I've found only a few contracts lately, everyone >>> in my field is willing to 'work for food' Hmph There I go again >>> thinking people get paid to do web work. Seriously though If I had >>> to make a guess I'd say whomever it is who usually would take care >>> of web things doesn't do that work anymore, hasn't thought about it >>> in a really long time, or a combination of both. Sometimes when a >>> employee leaves a company they take with them the knowledge of how >>> to access the companies webserver which is more often than not 'out >>> of house' >> >> It says in the FAQ who the people are (Patrick and Teresa), and >> they're still there. And the schedule got updated recently, and now >> stretches out into the future (up through August 2003 I believe) >> again. > My first thought is well so much for that theory and second I wonder if they got paid with comestibles. From jalipaz at stanford.edu Wed Nov 13 13:31:08 2002 From: jalipaz at stanford.edu (Julie Alipaz) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:31:08 -0800 Subject: sample chapters In-Reply-To: References: <20021108072758.8380.qmail@web21301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: speaking of the website, are there any sample chapters to be had ? jaa From mtiller at ntlworld.com Wed Nov 13 14:25:44 2002 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 22:25:44 -0000 Subject: Tor books Web site abandoned? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501c28b63$9b82f7f0$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> > My first thought is well so much for that theory and second I wonder if they got paid with comestibles. What, Cheesy ones? :-) Mark. P.S. I hope the reference isn't too obscure From ijamie at sympatico.ca Wed Nov 13 14:33:52 2002 From: ijamie at sympatico.ca (Ian Jamieson) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 17:33:52 -0500 Subject: Next Viscount book? References: Message-ID: <003501c28b64$be94abc0$5e885f41@srnmnigo> > On 11 Nov 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > Republished: > > COWBOY FENG'S SPACE BAR AND GRILLE, Orb TPB., 2003/03 > I am somewhat surprised that they're republishing CFSB&G rather than > "Brokedown Palace", since (a) BP ties into the Vlad Taltos & Khaavren > books and (b) BP is a better book (or at least I think so). I disagree. While I liked BP and it answered a few questions about Dragaera, I really liked CFSB&G. I thought it was like a better version of Big Trouble in Little China. A rollicking ride and funny too. Ian From eriktdahl at yahoo.com Wed Nov 13 14:41:38 2002 From: eriktdahl at yahoo.com (Erik Dahl) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 14:41:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tor books Web site abandoned? Message-ID: <20021113224138.83006.qmail@web13703.mail.yahoo.com> Mark Tiller (>) and 'Gametech' (>>) wrote: >> My first thought is well so much for that theory and second I wonder >> if they got paid with comestibles. > What, Cheesy ones? :-) Come again? > P.S. I hope the reference isn't too obscure Oh, I thought you were complaining about the bazouki player. From rone at ennui.org Wed Nov 13 15:23:55 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:23:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Next Viscount book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021113232355.6E9DB26E27@boredom.ennui.org> David Silberstein writes: I am somewhat surprised that they're republishing CFSB&G rather than "Brokedown Palace", since (a) BP ties into the Vlad Taltos & Khaavren books and (b) BP is a better book (or at least I think so). On that second note, Steven would probably agree with you. rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From feaelin at kemenel.org Thu Nov 14 07:01:43 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 09:01:43 -0600 Subject: Brokedown Palace & CFSB&G (was: Next Viscount book?) Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: David Silberstein [mailto:davids at kithrup.com] > Sent: Wednesday, 2002 November 13 14:06 > To: Draegara List > Subject: Re: Next Viscount book? > I am somewhat surprised that they're republishing CFSB&G > rather than "Brokedown Palace", since (a) BP ties into the > Vlad Taltos & Khaavren books and (b) BP is a better book (or > at least I think so). I don't think they're comparable books. Very different types of stories. I have to admit that I have enjoyed Cowboy Feng's more, and re-read it more often that BP. But that doesn't make it a better book...that's more likely a reflection of my preferences, rather than quality. :) From mneme at io.com Thu Nov 14 07:39:12 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 09:39:12 -0600 Subject: Brokedown Palace & CFSB&G (was: Next Viscount book?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15827.50080.994010.644287@fnord.io.com> Davis, Iain E. writes: >I have to admit that I have enjoyed Cowboy Feng's more, and re-read it >more often that BP. But that doesn't make it a better book...that's more >likely a reflection of my preferences, rather than quality. :) I have to admit that I thought Coyboy Feng's was a snoozer -- the only Brust novel I actively disliked. Wheras Brokedown Palace...was damned good, and I really need to reread it, since I don't remember all that much of it. And, BTW, _Paths of the Dead_ is out. I'm a bit over a hundred pages in, and have, I believe, surmised a few things that have been hinted at but not outright stated. This -is- fun. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From mneme at io.com Thu Nov 14 07:41:40 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 09:41:40 -0600 Subject: Tor books Web site abandoned? In-Reply-To: <20021113224138.83006.qmail@web13703.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20021113224138.83006.qmail@web13703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <15827.50228.369332.555760@fnord.io.com> BTW, re the web site. I asked around, and got the following info: Until recently, the web site was maintained by one person. Who has a -lot- of other duities, and has ended up having to update it only when he had time. In the near future, it will be run by a committe within Tor, which should make sure things are actually updated much more frequiently. This isn't a case of them not caring, or thinking it's old news; it's just a case of the infrastructure needing to be in place, and it was'nt. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From jimkatz at ix.netcom.com Thu Nov 14 08:04:03 2002 From: jimkatz at ix.netcom.com (Jim Katz) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 11:04:03 -0500 Subject: Brokedown Palace & CFSB&G (was: Next Viscount book?) References: Message-ID: <3DD3C973.9D7A73B@ix.netcom.com> I liked it because of the BMW space scooter on the cover. "Davis, Iain E." wrote: > > I have to admit that I have enjoyed Cowboy Feng's more, and re-read it > more often that BP. But that doesn't make it a better book...that's more > likely a reflection of my preferences, rather than quality. :) -- ! Jim Katz ! Former BMW Dealer and rider From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Nov 14 08:11:01 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 08:11:01 -0800 Subject: Brokedown Palace & CFSB&G (was: Next Viscount book?) In-Reply-To: <15827.50080.994010.644287@fnord.io.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021114081024.00aabec0@localhost> At 09:39 AM 11/14/2002 -0600, Joshua Kronengold wrote: > >And, BTW, _Paths of the Dead_ is out. Oh, my. That *is* news. I wonder when I'll get to see a copy. Steve From ajmcguigan at yahoo.com Thu Nov 14 08:22:45 2002 From: ajmcguigan at yahoo.com (Andrew McGuigan) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 08:22:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Brokedown Palace & CFSB&G (was: Next Viscount book?) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021114081024.00aabec0@localhost> Message-ID: <20021114162245.59643.qmail@web12702.mail.yahoo.com> This is also interesting, from bn.com: Yendi, Vol. 2 Steven Brust Format: Paperback, 224pp. ISBN: 0441944590 Publisher: Berkley Publishing Group Pub. Date: January 1987 This title is not presently stocked by Barnes & Noble. A used copy of this title may be available. Check availability from our network of book dealers. Write your own Review Be the first to write a review ABOUT THIS ITEM >From the Publisher Vlad Taltos tells the story of his early days in the House Jhereg, how he found himself in a Jhereg war, and how he fell in love with the wonderful woman, Yendi, who killed him. ---------------------------- Yendi, a good Eastern name...YEN-di...Yendiiiii --- Steven Brust wrote: > At 09:39 AM 11/14/2002 -0600, Joshua Kronengold > wrote: > > > >And, BTW, _Paths of the Dead_ is out. > > > Oh, my. > > That *is* news. I wonder when I'll get to see a > copy. > > Steve > > > > From righel at msn.com Thu Nov 14 09:23:05 2002 From: righel at msn.com (Rosemary Ighel) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 11:23:05 -0600 Subject: CFSB&G References: <3DD3C973.9D7A73B@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <014801c28c02$7e8f77f0$47440aa9@mmm.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Katz" > > I have to admit that I have enjoyed Cowboy Feng's more, and re-read it > > more often that BP. But that doesn't make it a better book...that's more > > likely a reflection of my preferences, rather than quality. :) I _like_ Cowboy Feng's, even though Steve doesn't. I understand his issues with it, but it's still a really fun read, neener neener. My Borders tells me PotD isn't in their store yet. R. From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Thu Nov 14 09:22:37 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 11:22:37 -0600 Subject: Brokedown Palace & CFSB&G (was: Next Viscount book?) References: <15827.50080.994010.644287@fnord.io.com> Message-ID: <3DD3DBDD.5040500@attbi.com> Where did you find it????? From mneme at io.com Thu Nov 14 10:28:05 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:28:05 -0600 Subject: Brokedown Palace & CFSB&G (was: Next Viscount book?) In-Reply-To: <3DD3DBDD.5040500@attbi.com> References: <15827.50080.994010.644287@fnord.io.com> <3DD3DBDD.5040500@attbi.com> Message-ID: <15827.60213.883424.712731@fnord.io.com> Mia McDavid writes: >Where did you find it????? Er...Tor's office, actually. But I'm sure it will make it out to stores soon, now that the books actually exist. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Nov 14 11:26:21 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:26:21 EST Subject: Brokedown Palace &CFS&G(was: Next Viscount book?) Message-ID: <97.30b5cdf9.2b0552dd@aol.com> Josua is reading Paths of the Dead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Got it at Tor's office huh. Why don't you update the website next time your there too, ya bastage. Everyone- Pile on Joshua!!!!!!! UH, OW, OH. Get your elbow out of my face and GET THE BOOK. John D. Barbato,O.D. "I miss everything I'll never be.", Billy Corgin, smashing punkins From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Nov 14 11:29:34 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:29:34 EST Subject: CFSB Message-ID: <1ba.9746ec3.2b05539e@aol.com> I liked both books. I found Brokedown Palace a little confusing the first read, but it has become one of my favorite Brust novels. I think it's a shame they are not publishing both. John D. Barbato,O.D. "I miss everything I'll never be.", Billy Corgin, smashing punkins From mneme at io.com Thu Nov 14 11:34:13 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 13:34:13 -0600 Subject: Brokedown Palace &CFS&G(was: Next Viscount book?) In-Reply-To: <97.30b5cdf9.2b0552dd@aol.com> References: <97.30b5cdf9.2b0552dd@aol.com> Message-ID: <15827.64181.676171.170783@fnord.io.com> Randi128 at aol.com writes: >Josua is reading Paths of the Dead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >Got it at Tor's office huh. Why don't you update the website next time your >there too, ya bastage. Hey, I just visit -- I don't work there. (But I do hear from some fairly highly placed sources that the web site -will- be updated much more regularly soon). And I've got better -- Lisa, my girlfriend, is reviewing the book...and read it at least 3 weeks ago (in proofs). But she hasn't let -me- at it at all, until the book was actually -out-. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Nov 14 11:37:38 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:37:38 EST Subject: Brokedown Palace &CFS&G(was: Next Viscount book?) Message-ID: Joshua writes: I don't work there..... Oh, well. At least you are getting us inside information. Thanks alot. John D. Barbato,O.D. "I miss everything I'll never be.", Billy Corgin, smashing punkins From davids at kithrup.com Thu Nov 14 11:42:04 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 11:42:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Brokedown Palace & CFSB&G (was: Next Viscount book?) In-Reply-To: <15827.60213.883424.712731@fnord.io.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, Joshua Kronengold wrote: >Mia McDavid writes: >>Where did you find it????? > >Er...Tor's office, actually. But I'm sure it will make it out to >stores soon, now that the books actually exist. > In other words, the publisher has received it from the *printers*. Now it has to go through the whole process of going to the distributors, and from there to the bookstores. It may be some time. Do you also eat chocolate cake in front of starving people, you sadist? From mneme at io.com Thu Nov 14 12:53:00 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:53:00 -0600 Subject: Brokedown Palace & CFSB&G (was: Next Viscount book?) In-Reply-To: References: <15827.60213.883424.712731@fnord.io.com> Message-ID: <15828.3372.454162.923612@fnord.io.com> David Silberstein writes: >In other words, the publisher has received it from the *printers*. >Now it has to go through the whole process of going to the >distributors, and from there to the bookstores. It may be some time. >From my experience, it shouldn't take more than a week or so. Possibly less -- usually, the publisher gets the books at about the same time that the distributor does -- they aren't shipped to the publisher, then the distributor; instead, the printer ships the books to both directly. >Do you also eat chocolate cake in front of starving people, you >sadist? Yes. I usually offer them some, though, if I can. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Thu Nov 14 12:59:00 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:59:00 -0600 Subject: Brokedown Palace & CFSB&G (was: Next Viscount book?) References: <15827.50080.994010.644287@fnord.io.com> <3DD3DBDD.5040500@attbi.com> <15827.60213.883424.712731@fnord.io.com> Message-ID: <3DD40E94.5040304@attbi.com> I'll have to start calling around. Some stores are strict about holding onto things until the release date, some not so much. Mia From davids at kithrup.com Thu Nov 14 13:14:55 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 13:14:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Brokedown Palace & CFSB&G (was: Next Viscount book?) In-Reply-To: <15828.3372.454162.923612@fnord.io.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, Joshua Kronengold wrote: > >>Do you also eat chocolate cake in front of starving people, you >>sadist? > >Yes. I usually offer them some, though, if I can. > Feel free to offer us some of "The Paths of the Dead", then. :-) From jedijane at yahoo.com Thu Nov 14 19:56:41 2002 From: jedijane at yahoo.com (Michelle Goepp) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:56:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Brandy Question In-Reply-To: <1a4.bb1140f.2b01cabe@aol.com> Message-ID: <20021115035641.55435.qmail@web12302.mail.yahoo.com> > Jose Marquez wrote: > > I don't remember Vlad saying that he doesn't like > brandy; I just > > remember that he got annoyed that Dragaerans > called it wine. Naturally, > > this doesn't answer your questions... --- FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: > Well, it rather does -- yes, Michelle, you're > missing something, or rather, > you're mis-remembering something. Like Jose says, > it isn't that Vlad doesn't > like brandy, it's that he dislikes Dragaerans > completely missing the point > between brandy and its less potent cousin, wine. I beg to differ. I've finally tracked down the quote (see, I *knew* I wasn't going crazy!) to page 197 of my ACE paperback copy of Yendi, where Vlad comments: "I helped myself to a large glass of brandy, which I despise, but it's stronger than wine..." I would say that's a pretty strong indication that he doesn't like the stuff. ~M ===== Michelle "Black holes are where God divided by zero." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com From davids at kithrup.com Thu Nov 14 21:35:04 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 21:35:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Brandy Question In-Reply-To: <20021115035641.55435.qmail@web12302.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, Michelle Goepp wrote: > >I beg to differ. I've finally tracked down the quote >(see, I *knew* I wasn't going crazy!) to page 197 of >my ACE paperback copy of Yendi, where Vlad comments: >"I helped myself to a large glass of brandy, which I >despise, but it's stronger than wine..." I would say >that's a pretty strong indication that he doesn't like >the stuff. Well, we here at the SKZBRBHAM [1] Department of the AES SAEDI [2] would be simply delighted to tackle this one for you: 1) He was referring to the behavior of drinking brandy without rinsing one's mouth out first. 2) He despises *Dragaeran* brandy, not Fenarian brandy. Or maybe he despises just the particular type of brandy that he had at that moment (sort of how I despise "beer" - *if* it's one of the mass-produced pisswater brands. But I delight in Real Beer that is properly brewed [4]). 3) Ever since he took a sorcerous hit that nearly killed him during his stint in the army that he wasn't in, nothing tastes quite the same as it did before. 4) Incidentally, right after that line, he mentions a drink called "Piarran Mist" (which I've also noted elsewhere, mostly in the earlier books). That's an in-joke reference to the RPG that predated Dragaera (Piarra). So now you know. [1] Steve Karl Zoltan Brust Retcon, Back-filling, and Handwaving [2] Adrilankha Eleemosynary Society, Silly-Ass Explanations DIvision [3] [3] What? [4] Recently discovered "Old Rasputin Russian Imperial Stout". Recommended! From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Thu Nov 14 21:36:52 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 23:36:52 -0600 Subject: The Brandy Question References: <20021115035641.55435.qmail@web12302.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Michelle Goepp wrote: >> Jose Marquez wrote: >>> I don't remember Vlad saying that he doesn't like >> brandy; I just >>> remember that he got annoyed that Dragaerans called it wine. >>> Naturally, this doesn't answer your questions... > > --- FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: > >> Well, it rather does -- yes, Michelle, you're >> missing something, or rather, >> you're mis-remembering something. Like Jose says, >> it isn't that Vlad doesn't >> like brandy, it's that he dislikes Dragaerans >> completely missing the point >> between brandy and its less potent cousin, wine. > > > I beg to differ. I've finally tracked down the quote > (see, I *knew* I wasn't going crazy!) to page 197 of > my ACE paperback copy of Yendi, where Vlad comments: > "I helped myself to a large glass of brandy, which I > despise, but it's stronger than wine..." I would say > that's a pretty strong indication that he doesn't like > the stuff. > > ~M Well in Teckla he goes to a inn and has two glasses of an eastern brandy, If I remember correctly. If you remember it. It's the only scene where Kiera runs into him in that book, I believe. Teckla happens after Yendi in chron. so maybe his opinion of Brandy is improving or he dislikes it less than wine or one of other reasons. From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Fri Nov 15 00:01:55 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 02:01:55 -0600 Subject: The Brandy Question Message-ID: Gametech wrote: > Michelle Goepp wrote: >>> Jose Marquez wrote: >>>> I don't remember Vlad saying that he doesn't like >>> brandy; I just >>>> remember that he got annoyed that Dragaerans called it wine. >>>> Naturally, this doesn't answer your questions... >> >> --- FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: >> >>> Well, it rather does -- yes, Michelle, you're >>> missing something, or rather, >>> you're mis-remembering something. Like Jose says, >>> it isn't that Vlad doesn't >>> like brandy, it's that he dislikes Dragaerans >>> completely missing the point >>> between brandy and its less potent cousin, wine. >> >> >> I beg to differ. I've finally tracked down the quote >> (see, I *knew* I wasn't going crazy!) to page 197 of >> my ACE paperback copy of Yendi, where Vlad comments: >> "I helped myself to a large glass of brandy, which I >> despise, but it's stronger than wine..." I would say >> that's a pretty strong indication that he doesn't like >> the stuff. >> >> ~M > > Well in Teckla he goes to a inn and has two glasses of an eastern > brandy, If I remember correctly. > If you remember it. It's the only scene where Kiera runs into him in > that book, I believe. > > Teckla happens after Yendi in chron. so maybe his opinion of Brandy is > improving or he dislikes it less than wine or one of other reasons. Err... wait That wasn't in Teckla it was in Taltos which was in the past related to Teckla and Yendi so I'd have to say that maybe the experience I referenced was onto his journey of discovering he didn't much care for brandy. -thanks self for catching his own mistake before anyone else. heh From seanp at ea.com Fri Nov 15 13:29:17 2002 From: seanp at ea.com (Penney, Sean) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 13:29:17 -0800 Subject: The Brandy Question Message-ID: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F594D3@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Michelle Goepp wrote: >> Jose Marquez wrote: >>> I don't remember Vlad saying that he doesn't like >> brandy; I just >>> remember that he got annoyed that Dragaerans called it wine. >>> Naturally, this doesn't answer your questions... > > --- FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: > >> Well, it rather does -- yes, Michelle, you're >> missing something, or rather, >> you're mis-remembering something. Like Jose says, >> it isn't that Vlad doesn't >> like brandy, it's that he dislikes Dragaerans >> completely missing the point >> between brandy and its less potent cousin, wine. > > > I beg to differ. I've finally tracked down the quote > (see, I *knew* I wasn't going crazy!) to page 197 of > my ACE paperback copy of Yendi, where Vlad comments: > "I helped myself to a large glass of brandy, which I > despise, but it's stronger than wine..." I would say > that's a pretty strong indication that he doesn't like > the stuff. > > ~M Gametech wrote >Well in Teckla he goes to a inn and has two glasses of an eastern brandy, If >I remember correctly. >If you remember it. It's the only scene where Kiera runs into him in that >book, I believe. >Teckla happens after Yendi in chron. so maybe his opinion of Brandy is >improving or he dislikes it less than wine or one of other reasons. I recall he was sampling peach brandies. Is that a type of liquor? I'm not familiar with peach brandies, but I'll bet they're different then your standard Napoleon style brandy - peach brandy=sweet and regular brandy=gag reflex? From davids at kithrup.com Fri Nov 15 16:04:13 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 16:04:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [META] List broken again? Message-ID: Uh... Am I the only one seeing the same problems we had a while back (long delays between post & arrival from the list and multiple copies copies copies copies copies copies <*whack*> of posts)? From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Nov 15 16:10:22 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 15 Nov 2002 18:10:22 -0600 Subject: [META] List broken again? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David Silberstein writes: > Uh... > > Am I the only one seeing the same problems we had a while back (long > delays between post & arrival from the list and multiple copies copies > copies copies copies copies <*whack*> of posts)? I have no reason to believe the multiple copies are the fault of the list engine. Things are likely to be a bit slow because this is the day Crypto-Gram goes out, which puts quite a heavy load on the mail system. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From electrictwilight at hotmail.com Fri Nov 15 16:19:15 2002 From: electrictwilight at hotmail.com (H. T.) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 00:19:15 +0000 Subject: Multiple copies of postings: A bit off topic but where else does it belong? Message-ID: This is a bit off topic, but I can't find where else to post it. Please let me know if there is another place for this sort of thing, and I will post there instead. ___________________________________________________ Emmm, I noticed today, (and this has only happened today), that I have been receiving multiple copies of the same postings. Has anyone else encountered this? To be exact, >from certain people I have received seven copies of each. Usually, I would think this is a problem with whatever server is routing the postings to my e-mail address and disregard this occurrence, but, since this is not happening with everyone that posts, only a few people, I propose the following questions: Is it just me? Is there a problem with the server/router? Certain people's ISP's? Or, are we developing a new etiquette wherein we will start sending everything seven times and work our way toward seventeen? Just curious. Oh, BTW, I really don't mind, I am simply more or less curious, if it is just me, then I need to troubleshoot my e-mail. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From mam at theworld.com Fri Nov 15 15:42:23 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 18:42:23 -0500 Subject: the list server In-Reply-To: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F594D3@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Message-ID: All right, where's the hiccup? When I saw about ten identical copies of Gametech's post I thought it was on his end, but here are six of Sean's. The list server needs a swift boot! -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Fri Nov 15 15:26:43 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 18:26:43 -0500 Subject: The Brandy Question In-Reply-To: <20021115035641.55435.qmail@web12302.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, Michelle Goepp wrote: #I beg to differ. I've finally tracked down the quote #(see, I *knew* I wasn't going crazy!) to page 197 of #my ACE paperback copy of Yendi, where Vlad comments: #"I helped myself to a large glass of brandy, which I #despise, but it's stronger than wine..." I would say #that's a pretty strong indication that he doesn't like #the stuff. What's the chronology of the textev? Is is possible that he learned to like brandy, or discovered that there are some good brandies and Morrolan (or whoever) was serving the second time had one? -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Nov 15 17:09:33 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 19:09:33 -0600 Subject: [META] List broken again? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20021116010933.GA3024@infodancer.org> On Fri, Nov 15, 2002 at 06:10:22PM -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > David Silberstein writes: > > Uh... > > Am I the only one seeing the same problems we had a while back (long > > delays between post & arrival from the list and multiple copies copies > > copies copies copies copies <*whack*> of posts)? > I have no reason to believe the multiple copies are the fault of the > list engine. Things are likely to be a bit slow because this is the > day Crypto-Gram goes out, which puts quite a heavy load on the mail > system. That's going out through the same servers? Interesting. :) -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From AkodoBob at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 15 18:30:22 2002 From: AkodoBob at sbcglobal.net (Erik Berman) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 18:30:22 -0800 Subject: Multiple copies of postings: A bit off topic but where else does it belong? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5B156A5E-F90B-11D6-AEB9-0005027712ED@sbcglobal.net> Define Irony: Receiving Multiple copies of a post complaining about multiple copies of posts. On Friday, November 15, 2002, at 04:19 PM, H. T. wrote: > This is a bit off topic, but I can't find where else to > post it. Please let me know if there is another place > for this sort of thing, and I will post there instead. > > ___________________________________________________ > Emmm, I noticed today, (and this has only happened today), > that I have been receiving multiple copies of the same > postings. Has anyone else encountered this? To be exact, > from certain people I have received seven copies of each. > Usually, I would think this is a problem with whatever > server is routing the postings to my e-mail address and > disregard this occurrence, but, since this is not happening > with everyone that posts, only a few people, I propose the > following questions: Is it just me? Is there a problem with > the server/router? Certain people's ISP's? Or, are we > developing a new etiquette wherein we will start sending > everything seven times and work our way toward seventeen? > Just curious. > > Oh, BTW, I really don't mind, I am simply more or less > curious, if it is just me, then I need to troubleshoot > my e-mail. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Nov 15 22:30:35 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 16 Nov 2002 00:30:35 -0600 Subject: [META] List broken again? In-Reply-To: <20021116010933.GA3024@infodancer.org> References: <20021116010933.GA3024@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Matthew Hunter writes: > On Fri, Nov 15, 2002 at 06:10:22PM -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > David Silberstein writes: > > > Uh... > > > Am I the only one seeing the same problems we had a while back (long > > > delays between post & arrival from the list and multiple copies copies > > > copies copies copies copies <*whack*> of posts)? > > I have no reason to believe the multiple copies are the fault of the > > list engine. Things are likely to be a bit slow because this is the > > day Crypto-Gram goes out, which puts quite a heavy load on the mail > > system. > > That's going out through the same servers? Interesting. :) Kinda coincidentally, and they plan to move it to one of their own sometime, but neither I nor they consider it urgent, so it hasn't happened yet. It ended up here before Counterpane was a big company, when this was the server that the guy who got the job of setting it up had good access to. It's grown a bit now -- something like 60,000 subscribers. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dar at horusinc.com Sat Nov 16 06:20:34 2002 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 08:20:34 -0600 Subject: Multiple copies of postings: A bit off topic but where else does it belong? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes it happens at this ends also. David From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Sat Nov 16 09:50:14 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 11:50:14 -0600 Subject: [META] List broken again? References: Message-ID: David Silberstein wrote: > Uh... > > Am I the only one seeing the same problems we had a while back (long > delays between post & arrival from the list and multiple copies copies > copies copies copies copies <*whack*> of posts)? Yes multiple cpies are showing up for a couple of different posts, one of them was mine. I have seen a delay as well. From Gaertk at aol.com Sat Nov 16 12:43:35 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 15:43:35 -0500 Subject: The Brandy Question Message-ID: <7911AF83.343949E8.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated 11/15/2002 12:35:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, David Silberstein writes: > [2] Adrilankha Eleemosynary Society, Silly-Ass Explanations > DIvision [3] Silly Explanation Division, Ask Inside > [3] What? But wouldn't Vlad be great in that series? Esp. if the phoenix stones block the One Power. --KG From matthew at infodancer.org Sat Nov 16 12:34:06 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 14:34:06 -0600 Subject: The Brandy Question In-Reply-To: <7911AF83.343949E8.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <7911AF83.343949E8.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20021116203406.GA4927@infodancer.org> On Sat, Nov 16, 2002 at 03:43:35PM -0500, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/15/2002 12:35:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, David Silberstein writes: > > [2] Adrilankha Eleemosynary Society, Silly-Ass Explanations > > DIvision [3] > Silly Explanation Division, Ask Inside > > [3] What? > But wouldn't Vlad be great in that series? Esp. if the > phoenix stones block the One Power. He's already *in* that series. Disguised as Bela. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From zizban at adelphia.net Sat Nov 16 12:54:48 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 15:54:48 -0500 Subject: The Brandy Question In-Reply-To: <20021116203406.GA4927@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 03:34 PM, Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Sat, Nov 16, 2002 at 03:43:35PM -0500, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >> In a message dated 11/15/2002 12:35:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, >> David Silberstein writes: >>> [2] Adrilankha Eleemosynary Society, Silly-Ass Explanations >>> DIvision [3] >> Silly Explanation Division, Ask Inside >>> [3] What? >> But wouldn't Vlad be great in that series? Esp. if the >> phoenix stones block the One Power. > > He's already *in* that series. > > Disguised as Bela. > What??? I thought he was Egwene. Damn! --- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds; and the pessimist fears this is true." -- James Branch Cabell From matthew at infodancer.org Sat Nov 16 12:40:59 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 14:40:59 -0600 Subject: The Brandy Question In-Reply-To: References: <20021116203406.GA4927@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20021116204059.GB4927@infodancer.org> On Sat, Nov 16, 2002 at 03:54:48PM -0500, Chris Turkel wrote: > On Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 03:34 PM, Matthew Hunter wrote: > >On Sat, Nov 16, 2002 at 03:43:35PM -0500, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > >>In a message dated 11/15/2002 12:35:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, > >>David Silberstein writes: > >>>[2] Adrilankha Eleemosynary Society, Silly-Ass Explanations > >>>DIvision [3] > >>Silly Explanation Division, Ask Inside > >>>[3] What? > >>But wouldn't Vlad be great in that series? Esp. if the > >>phoenix stones block the One Power. > >He's already *in* that series. > >Disguised as Bela. > What??? I thought he was Egwene. Damn! Only in order to kill Asmodean. You'll note Bela had vanished around that time. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From ijamie at sympatico.ca Sat Nov 16 15:37:51 2002 From: ijamie at sympatico.ca (Ian Jamieson) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 18:37:51 -0500 Subject: New Brust Book? YAVN? Message-ID: <002001c28dc9$2e27d320$9c885f41@srnmnigo> I was just surfing on the Amazon site under "Brust" and came across a listing for a soon to be published book called 'YAVN' Mass Market Paperback 0 edition Language: English Tom Doherty ; ISBN: 0765341549 Have I missed a thread? Is this book going to be released? Why have we, or at least I, heard no rumblings of this till now? Ian From agrajag at dragaera.net Sat Nov 16 18:57:53 2002 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 16 Nov 2002 21:57:53 -0500 Subject: New Brust Book? YAVN? In-Reply-To: <002001c28dc9$2e27d320$9c885f41@srnmnigo> References: <002001c28dc9$2e27d320$9c885f41@srnmnigo> Message-ID: <1037501872.1178.1.camel@loiosh> On Sat, 2002-11-16 at 18:37, Ian Jamieson wrote: > I was just surfing on the Amazon site under "Brust" and came across a listing for a soon to be published book called 'YAVN' > Mass Market Paperback 0 edition > Language: English > Tom Doherty ; ISBN: 0765341549 > > Have I missed a thread? Is this book going to be released? Why have we, or at least I, heard no rumblings of this till now? Hmm.. never heard of it myself. And I'm also unable to find anything on amazon.com about it (even when searching by ISBN). In fact, the only place I was able to find it was on Barnes & Nobles' site, and it didn't even have an author mentioned there. So, I have no idea how you were even able to find this other than a bug somewhere. But to answer your real question, to the best of my knowledge, SB isn't working on any such book. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sun Nov 17 13:26:04 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 13:26:04 -0800 Subject: New Brust Book? YAVN? In-Reply-To: <002001c28dc9$2e27d320$9c885f41@srnmnigo> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021117132352.00a71420@localhost> At 06:37 PM 11/16/2002 -0500, Ian Jamieson wrote: > I was just surfing on the Amazon site under "Brust" and came across a > listing for a soon to be published book called 'YAVN' >Mass Market Paperback 0 edition >Language: English >Tom Doherty ; ISBN: 0765341549 > > Have I missed a thread? Is this book going to be released? Why have > we, or at least I, heard no rumblings of this till now? Good lord! That is *weird*. That was the working title of the book that eventually became ORCA, I think. YAVN, of course, stands for Yet Another Vlad Novel. Which now reveals how Savn got his name. But I'm very curious about how they came across that bit of arcana, and how it turned into a new book at this point. Strange.... From jedijane at yahoo.com Sun Nov 17 14:11:39 2002 From: jedijane at yahoo.com (Michelle Goepp) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:11:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Brandy Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021117221139.56787.qmail@web12302.mail.yahoo.com> > On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, Michelle Goepp wrote: > > #I beg to differ. I've finally tracked down the > quote > #(see, I *knew* I wasn't going crazy!) to page 197 > of > #my ACE paperback copy of Yendi, where Vlad > comments: > #"I helped myself to a large glass of brandy, which > I > #despise, but it's stronger than wine..." I would > say > #that's a pretty strong indication that he doesn't > like > #the stuff. > --- Mark A Mandel wrote: > What's the chronology of the textev? Is is possible > that he learned to > like brandy, or discovered that there are some good > brandies and > Morrolan (or whoever) was serving the second time > had one? I'm not entirely certain what you're referring to by "chronology of the textev", Mark. As noted in my original post, the comment about not liking brandy (Yendi, 197) does after the scene in Taltos (Talktos, 14) where Vlad's tasting brandies, which prompted me to inquire whether it was ever mentioned how he came to dislike the drink. Was that the chronology you're seeking? ~M ===== Michelle "Black holes are where God divided by zero." __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com From ijamie at sympatico.ca Sun Nov 17 14:12:07 2002 From: ijamie at sympatico.ca (Ian Jamieson) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 17:12:07 -0500 Subject: New Brust Book? YAVN? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021117132352.00a71420@localhost> Message-ID: <000d01c28e86$5e9b67c0$97885f41@srnmnigo> > At 06:37 PM 11/16/2002 -0500, Ian Jamieson wrote: > > I was just surfing on the Amazon site under "Brust" and came across a > > listing for a soon to be published book called 'YAVN' > > Have I missed a thread? Is this book going to be released? Why have > > we, or at least I, heard no rumblings of this till now? > > > Good lord! That is *weird*. That was the working title of the book that > eventually became ORCA, I think. YAVN, of course, stands for Yet Another > Vlad Novel. Which now reveals how Savn got his name. > > But I'm very curious about how they came across that bit of arcana, and how > it turned into a new book at this point. > > Strange.... I only found this on the Amazon Canada site, Amazon.ca, the full listing is Yavn by Brust Steven Our Price: CDN$ 9.95 Availability: Not yet published Mass Market Paperback 0 edition Language: English Tom Doherty ; ISBN: 0765341549 Amazon.ca Sales Rank 88,717 My question is, ...... how do they rank a book that has not been released yet? Ian And feel free to write another Vlad book as soooooon as possible. From dgf at dd-b.net Sun Nov 17 15:17:02 2002 From: dgf at dd-b.net (dgf at dd-b.net) Date: 17 Nov 2002 23:17:02 -0000 Subject: Dragaera subscriber list Message-ID: <20021117231702.24857.qmail@dd-b.net> acwest-dragaera (at) craigwest.net (email) "A. 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Nonymous" yulia_nixie (at) mail.ru (email) "nixie" zaphod (at) charter.net (email) "Greg Schwartz" zizban (at) adelphia.net (email) Chris Turkel From davids at kithrup.com Sun Nov 17 17:56:43 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 17:56:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: New Brust Book? YAVN? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021117132352.00a71420@localhost> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Nov 2002, Steven Brust wrote: [regarding "Yavn": http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/0765341549 Yavn by Brust Steven Mass Market Paperback 0 edition Language: English Tom Doherty ; ISBN: 0765341549 Amazon.ca Sales Rank 88,717 ] > >Good lord! That is *weird*. That was the working title of the book >that eventually became ORCA, I think. YAVN, of course, stands for >Yet Another Vlad Novel. Which now reveals how Savn got his name. > >But I'm very curious about how they came across that bit of arcana, >and how it turned into a new book at this point. > Probably the same way that BINP has this: Title: The Paths of the Dead Author: Steven Brust Publication Date: April 1996 Publisher: Tom Doherty Associates, LLC Imprint: Tor Books ISBN: 0-312-85579-6 Item Status: Active Record Binding Format: Trade Cloth Bowker Subjects: FICTION_FANTASY_GENERAL General Subjects (BISAC): FICTION / Fantasy / General Dewey #: 813/.54 Yes, it says it was published in "April 1996". No doubt they have a copy that fell through a time warp. Note that they *do* also have a record for the current, *real* book (different ISBN, though). They also have the following: Title: Untitled Steven Brust: Brust Fantasy Author: Steven Brust Publication Date: Not Supplied. Contact publisher for more information Publisher: Tom Doherty Associates, LLC ISBN: 0-8125-3416-6 EAN: 9780812534160 Item Status: Active Record Binding Format: Mass Market They also have records for "The Lord of Castle Black" & "The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain." Someone should send them a memo about the latter... From andrew at networkharmoni.com.au Sun Nov 17 18:11:21 2002 From: andrew at networkharmoni.com.au (Andrew Bailey) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:11:21 +0800 Subject: PotD References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021114081024.00aabec0@localhost> Message-ID: <3DD84C49.10706@networkharmoni.com.au> Steven Brust wrote: > At 09:39 AM 11/14/2002 -0600, Joshua Kronengold wrote: > >> >> And, BTW, _Paths of the Dead_ is out. > > ouch! The Paths of the Dead (Dragaeron: Khaavren Romances #03) by STEVEN BRUST ( Hardback - November 2002 AUS ) Coming Soon. Pre order now. AUD$71.00 oh well it will be cheaper somewhere else *sighs* stupid australian currency :( Andrew. From ijamie at sympatico.ca Sun Nov 17 18:30:14 2002 From: ijamie at sympatico.ca (Ian Jamieson) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 21:30:14 -0500 Subject: PotD References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021114081024.00aabec0@localhost> <3DD84C49.10706@networkharmoni.com.au> Message-ID: <006c01c28eaa$6dd11a40$97885f41@srnmnigo> > The Paths of the Dead (Dragaeron: Khaavren Romances #03) > by STEVEN BRUST ( Hardback - November 2002 AUS ) > > Coming Soon. Pre order now. > AUD$71.00 > > > > oh well it will be cheaper somewhere else *sighs* > > stupid australian currency :( > > Andrew. I know what you mean, well, maybe not quite that bad. Amazon has it listed for $18.17 US. Amazon.ca has it listed for $25.17 CAN. I couldn't resist. Ian SATMB(standing at the mail box) From mam at theworld.com Sun Nov 17 20:34:24 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 23:34:24 -0500 Subject: New Brust Book? YAVN? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021117132352.00a71420@localhost> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Nov 2002, Steven Brust wrote: #Good lord! That is *weird*. That was the working title of the book that #eventually became ORCA, I think. YAVN, of course, stands for Yet Another #Vlad Novel. Which now reveals how Savn got his name. Hoo-HAH! Another item for my "names" section. Thank you, Steve! # #But I'm very curious about how they came across that bit of arcana, and how #it turned into a new book at this point. Kinda like the way the title of Gene Wolfe's fourth "New Sun" book, _The Citadel of the Autarch_, leaked out as "The Castle of the Otter". So he used the latter title for a book of notes and musings. -- Mark A. Mandel From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Nov 18 08:01:04 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 08:01:04 -0800 Subject: New Brust Book? YAVN? In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021117132352.00a71420@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021118075958.03311ec0@localhost> At 11:34 PM 11/17/2002 -0500, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Sun, 17 Nov 2002, Steven Brust wrote: > >#Good lord! That is *weird*. That was the working title of the book that >#eventually became ORCA, I think. YAVN, of course, stands for Yet Another >#Vlad Novel. Which now reveals how Savn got his name. > >Hoo-HAH! Another item for my "names" section. Thank you, Steve! You are most welcome. ># >#But I'm very curious about how they came across that bit of arcana, and how >#it turned into a new book at this point. > >Kinda like the way the title of Gene Wolfe's fourth "New Sun" book, _The >Citadel of the Autarch_, leaked out as "The Castle of the Otter". So he >used the latter title for a book of notes and musings. And dedicated it to the folks at Locus. Yes, indeed. One of the great comebacks in the history of sf. From loki at twwol.dyndns.org Mon Nov 18 08:49:19 2002 From: loki at twwol.dyndns.org (Loki) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 12:49:19 -0400 Subject: New Brust Book? YAVN? In-Reply-To: <000d01c28e86$5e9b67c0$97885f41@srnmnigo> Message-ID: On 11/17/02 6:12 PM, "Ian Jamieson" wrote: > Amazon.ca Sales Rank 88,717 > > My question is, ...... how do they rank a book that has not been released > yet? Pre-orders. People are ordering it. Somebody ought to let Amazon know. :) -- Government is essentially immoral. --- Herbert Spenser From Gaertk at aol.com Mon Nov 18 13:57:59 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 16:57:59 -0500 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) Message-ID: <6C53695B.774D7AE0.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated 11/16/2002 3:40:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, Matthew Hunter writes: > On Sat, Nov 16, 2002 at 03:54:48PM -0500, Chris Turkel > wrote: >> On Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 03:34 PM, Matthew >> Hunter wrote: >>> He's already *in* that series. >>> Disguised as Bela. >> What??? I thought he was Egwene. Damn! > > Only in order to kill Asmodean. ?You'll note Bela had > vanished around that time. Actually, Bela shows up in _Path of Daggers_ on page 349. If you want to find Vlad, you need to look for someone ruthless, who lies, is a pathetic horseman, capable of setting up and maintaining a large and effective spy network, and is generally devious as hell.... This of course would mean Bela is Loiosh. Mat is Aliera, Herid Fel was Daymar, Egwene is Sethra, and Perrin is Morrolan. --KG From FelixEisen at aol.com Mon Nov 18 14:36:01 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 17:36:01 EST Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) Message-ID: <149.2dbd07c.2b0ac551@aol.com> In some ways, I'm sorry I don't understand this particular thread. Mostly, though, I am vastly pleased. WoT seems to me to be a particularly blatant 'milk' series, not unlike Xanth. Knightmarshall Felix Surnamed Eisen, or "Iron Felix" Hand of Morr, The Order of Bones From zizban at adelphia.net Mon Nov 18 14:57:01 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 17:57:01 -0500 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) In-Reply-To: <149.2dbd07c.2b0ac551@aol.com> Message-ID: <0CCB92C8-FB49-11D6-8122-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Monday, November 18, 2002, at 05:36 PM, FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: > In some ways, I'm sorry I don't understand this particular thread. > Mostly, > though, I am vastly pleased. WoT seems to me to be a particularly > blatant > 'milk' series, not unlike Xanth. > You'd be wrong. if you read the series you'd understand. Robert Jordan is simply taking a loooooooong time to tell his story. Book 10 is due soon, he says there will be twelve, unlike Xanth which is what, 30 book? From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Nov 18 14:56:07 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 16:56:07 -0600 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) In-Reply-To: <6C53695B.774D7AE0.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <6C53695B.774D7AE0.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20021118225607.GD2019@infodancer.org> On Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 04:57:59PM -0500, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/16/2002 3:40:59 PM Eastern Standard > Time, Matthew Hunter writes: > > On Sat, Nov 16, 2002 at 03:54:48PM -0500, Chris Turkel > > wrote: > >> On Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 03:34 PM, Matthew > >> Hunter wrote: > >>> He's already *in* that series. > >>> Disguised as Bela. > >> What??? I thought he was Egwene. Damn! > > Only in order to kill Asmodean. ?You'll note Bela had > > vanished around that time. > Actually, Bela shows up in _Path of Daggers_ on page 349. Well after Asmodean's death. :) -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Nov 18 14:58:48 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 16:58:48 -0600 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) In-Reply-To: <0CCB92C8-FB49-11D6-8122-00039386187A@adelphia.net> References: <149.2dbd07c.2b0ac551@aol.com> <0CCB92C8-FB49-11D6-8122-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <20021118225848.GE2019@infodancer.org> On Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 05:57:01PM -0500, Chris Turkel wrote: > On Monday, November 18, 2002, at 05:36 PM, FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: > >In some ways, I'm sorry I don't understand this particular thread. > >Mostly, > >though, I am vastly pleased. WoT seems to me to be a particularly > >blatant > >'milk' series, not unlike Xanth. > You'd be wrong. if you read the series you'd understand. Robert Jordan > is simply taking a loooooooong time to tell his story. Book 10 is due > soon, he says there will be twelve, unlike Xanth which is what, 30 book? More accurately, Jordan isn't deliberately milking the story -- he's just lost track of where exactly he was going in all the details. Recent books show some evidence of returning to appropriate course. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From seanp at ea.com Mon Nov 18 15:29:15 2002 From: seanp at ea.com (Penney, Sean) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 15:29:15 -0800 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) Message-ID: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F594E4@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> On Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 05:57:01PM -0500, Chris Turkel wrote: > On Monday, November 18, 2002, at 05:36 PM, FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: > >In some ways, I'm sorry I don't understand this particular thread. > >Mostly, > >though, I am vastly pleased. WoT seems to me to be a particularly > >blatant > >'milk' series, not unlike Xanth. > You'd be wrong. if you read the series you'd understand. Robert Jordan > is simply taking a loooooooong time to tell his story. Book 10 is due > soon, he says there will be twelve, unlike Xanth which is what, 30 book? >More accurately, Jordan isn't deliberately milking the story -- >he's just lost track of where exactly he was going in all the >details. Recent books show some evidence of returning to >appropriate course. I disagree. I gave up on Jordan after book 5 or 6 when I became confused as to whether or not I had already read the book. I hadn't, but the events in each book were sufficiently alike that I was having trouble telling the difference. Charles Dickens and other Victorian writers used to milk their serial publications because they were being paid by the word. Books like "Bleak House" were the result. Jordan is a modern day Victorian serial writer. It's a great formula - develop a rich world, fill it with interesting people and places, then advance the story a plot-point per book. (OK, I'm exaggerating, but the series had a lot of promise and he's gone and scared me off). As for Anthony, I think he's gone senile - "The colour of her Panties" - puh-lease. And puns are the lowest form of humour - the ONLY form of humour he seems capable of nowadays. To think this is the same fellow who wrote "Macroscope" and the "Omnivore, Orn & Ox" series. From casey at trinityhartford.org Mon Nov 18 15:35:00 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 18:35:00 -0500 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) In-Reply-To: <0CCB92C8-FB49-11D6-8122-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: Chris Turkel wrote: > On Monday, November 18, 2002, at 05:36 PM, FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: > > WoT seems to me to be a particularly blatant 'milk' series, > > not unlike Xanth. > > You'd be wrong. if you read the series you'd understand. Robert Jordan > is simply taking a loooooooong time to tell his story. Book 10 is due > soon, he says there will be twelve, unlike Xanth which is what, 30 book? As I said previously, I have an irrational, uninformed aversion to anything by RJ. I think it has something to do with the horror I experienced as a relatively impressionable lad seeing LRH milk the Mission Earth series from beyond the grave. Note that WoT volumes are about the same size as ME vols were, and don't have nearly as good cover art as Steve's books, (a deficit shared by ME), and if I'm not mistaken there were also ten of them, all but the first was released posthumously. Oh god, that's just too scary. OK, I didn't read those either, but ... [shrug] There are stories that take a long time to tell. My experience is that they also take a long time to write. FWIW, 10 vols in 10 years does not strike me as a long time. However, I sense that comparing any "prolific" writer to Piers Anthony is probably not fair to either one. Xanth started out as mildly clever. It has endured as fantastical popcorn. If you don't think there's a place in the world for such, ask a librarian what circulates. Casey From scott_bland at hotmail.com Mon Nov 18 15:38:06 2002 From: scott_bland at hotmail.com (Scott Bland) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 17:38:06 -0600 Subject: Waylander Message-ID: Hey you guys, Have any of you all read the Waylander trilogy by David Gemmell? I just finished it and really enjoyed it. Scott _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From zizban at adelphia.net Mon Nov 18 15:45:31 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 18:45:31 -0500 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) In-Reply-To: <20021118225607.GD2019@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Monday, November 18, 2002, at 05:56 PM, Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 04:57:59PM -0500, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >> In a message dated 11/16/2002 3:40:59 PM Eastern Standard >> Time, Matthew Hunter writes: >>> On Sat, Nov 16, 2002 at 03:54:48PM -0500, Chris Turkel >>> wrote: >>>> On Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 03:34 PM, Matthew >>>> Hunter wrote: >>>>> He's already *in* that series. >>>>> Disguised as Bela. >>>> What??? I thought he was Egwene. Damn! >>> Only in order to kill Asmodean. ?You'll note Bela had >>> vanished around that time. >> Actually, Bela shows up in _Path of Daggers_ on page 349. > > Well after Asmodean's death. :) > > -- > Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) > Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp > Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt > On a side note, I met RJ at a book signing and said Asmodean's killer is "obvious" but he said Bela wasn't the killer, nor any other kind of animal. --- "We cannot accomplish great things - just little ones, with great love." -Mother Teresa From zizban at adelphia.net Mon Nov 18 15:48:40 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 18:48:40 -0500 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) In-Reply-To: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F594E4@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Message-ID: <43CF6340-FB50-11D6-AAD9-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Monday, November 18, 2002, at 06:29 PM, Penney, Sean wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 05:57:01PM -0500, Chris Turkel > wrote: >> On Monday, November 18, 2002, at 05:36 PM, FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: >>> In some ways, I'm sorry I don't understand this particular thread. >>> Mostly, >>> though, I am vastly pleased. WoT seems to me to be a particularly >>> blatant >>> 'milk' series, not unlike Xanth. >> You'd be wrong. if you read the series you'd understand. Robert Jordan >> is simply taking a loooooooong time to tell his story. Book 10 is due >> soon, he says there will be twelve, unlike Xanth which is what, 30 >> book? > >> More accurately, Jordan isn't deliberately milking the story -- >> he's just lost track of where exactly he was going in all the >> details. Recent books show some evidence of returning to >> appropriate course. > > I disagree. I gave up on Jordan after book 5 or 6 when I became > confused as to whether or not I had already read the book. I hadn't, > but the events in each book were sufficiently alike that I was having > trouble telling the difference. Charles Dickens and other Victorian > writers used to milk their serial publications because they were being > paid by the word. Books like "Bleak House" were the result. Jordan > is a modern day Victorian serial writer. It's a great formula - > develop a rich world, fill it with interesting people and places, then > advance the story a plot-point per book. (OK, I'm exaggerating, but > the series had a lot of promise and he's gone and scared me off). > > As for Anthony, I think he's gone senile - "The colour of her Panties" > - puh-lease. And puns are the lowest form of humour - the ONLY form > of humour he seems capable of nowadays. To think this is the same > fellow who wrote "Macroscope" and the "Omnivore, Orn & Ox" series. > You should WoT again. Its gotten better, especially book eight on (ignore the blatant plot manipulation in Path of Daggers and you'll be fine). --- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds; and the pessimist fears this is true." -- James Branch Cabell From seanp at ea.com Mon Nov 18 15:55:47 2002 From: seanp at ea.com (Penney, Sean) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 15:55:47 -0800 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) Message-ID: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F594E5@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> > > On Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 05:57:01PM -0500, Chris Turkel > wrote: >> On Monday, November 18, 2002, at 05:36 PM, FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: >>> In some ways, I'm sorry I don't understand this particular thread. >>> Mostly, >>> though, I am vastly pleased. WoT seems to me to be a particularly >>> blatant >>> 'milk' series, not unlike Xanth. >> You'd be wrong. if you read the series you'd understand. Robert Jordan >> is simply taking a loooooooong time to tell his story. Book 10 is due >> soon, he says there will be twelve, unlike Xanth which is what, 30 >> book? > >> More accurately, Jordan isn't deliberately milking the story -- >> he's just lost track of where exactly he was going in all the >> details. Recent books show some evidence of returning to >> appropriate course. > > I disagree. I gave up on Jordan after book 5 or 6 when I became > confused as to whether or not I had already read the book. I hadn't, > but the events in each book were sufficiently alike that I was having > trouble telling the difference. Charles Dickens and other Victorian > writers used to milk their serial publications because they were being > paid by the word. Books like "Bleak House" were the result. Jordan > is a modern day Victorian serial writer. It's a great formula - > develop a rich world, fill it with interesting people and places, then > advance the story a plot-point per book. (OK, I'm exaggerating, but > the series had a lot of promise and he's gone and scared me off). > > As for Anthony, I think he's gone senile - "The colour of her Panties" > - puh-lease. And puns are the lowest form of humour - the ONLY form > of humour he seems capable of nowadays. To think this is the same > fellow who wrote "Macroscope" and the "Omnivore, Orn & Ox" series. > Chris Wrote >You should WoT again. Its gotten better, especially book eight on >(ignore the blatant plot manipulation in Path of Daggers and you'll be >fine). My brother reads them. I'll wait until the series is wrapped up then borrow the whole lot and hole up in a cabin for a week. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, right? From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Nov 18 15:57:48 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 17:57:48 -0600 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) In-Reply-To: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F594E4@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> References: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F594E4@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Message-ID: <20021118235748.GA1205@infodancer.org> On Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 03:29:15PM -0800, "Penney, Sean" wrote: > On Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 05:57:01PM -0500, Chris Turkel wrote: > > On Monday, November 18, 2002, at 05:36 PM, FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: > > >In some ways, I'm sorry I don't understand this particular thread. > > >Mostly, > > >though, I am vastly pleased. WoT seems to me to be a particularly > > >blatant > > >'milk' series, not unlike Xanth. > > You'd be wrong. if you read the series you'd understand. Robert Jordan > > is simply taking a loooooooong time to tell his story. Book 10 is due > > soon, he says there will be twelve, unlike Xanth which is what, 30 book? > >More accurately, Jordan isn't deliberately milking the story -- > >he's just lost track of where exactly he was going in all the > >details. Recent books show some evidence of returning to > >appropriate course. > I disagree. I gave up on Jordan after book 5 or 6 when I > became confused as to whether or not I had already read the > book. I hadn't, but the events in each book were sufficiently > alike that I was having trouble telling the difference. That was the beginning of the doldrums, yes. But you have a bit of gall to be making judgements on the whole series when you have only read half of it. Yes, it has gone pretty far down, but calling it "blatant milking" is IMO incorrect. Hopefully it will recover -- and as noted, the last book made some significant progress. Now, you want blatant milking... try Piers Anthony, > Charles Dickens and other Victorian writers used to milk their > serial publications because they were being paid by the word. I'm familiar with the form, yes. > Books like "Bleak House" were the result. Jordan is a modern > day Victorian serial writer. It's a great formula - develop a > rich world, fill it with interesting people and places, then > advance the story a plot-point per book. (OK, I'm exaggerating, > but the series had a lot of promise and he's gone and scared me > off). Don't be scared off yet. He still has the chance to end the series well. > As for Anthony, I think he's gone senile - "The colour of her > Panties" - puh-lease. And puns are the lowest form of humour - > the ONLY form of humour he seems capable of nowadays. To think > this is the same fellow who wrote "Macroscope" and the > "Omnivore, Orn & Ox" series. Senile would be one word for it. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Nov 18 16:14:04 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 16:14:04 -0800 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) In-Reply-To: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F594E5@eac-exch4.eac.ad. ea.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021118161331.039b7cd0@localhost> At 03:55 PM 11/18/2002 -0800, Penney, Sean wrote: > >My brother reads them. I'll wait until the series is wrapped up then >borrow the whole lot and hole up in a cabin for a week. What doesn't kill >you makes you stronger, right? As my friend Merlin says, what doesn't kill me provides me the opportunity to return fire. From zizban at adelphia.net Mon Nov 18 16:20:34 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 19:20:34 -0500 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) In-Reply-To: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F594E5@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Message-ID: On Monday, November 18, 2002, at 06:55 PM, Penney, Sean wrote: >> >> On Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 05:57:01PM -0500, Chris Turkel >> wrote: >>> On Monday, November 18, 2002, at 05:36 PM, FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: >>>> In some ways, I'm sorry I don't understand this particular thread. >>>> Mostly, >>>> though, I am vastly pleased. WoT seems to me to be a particularly >>>> blatant >>>> 'milk' series, not unlike Xanth. >>> You'd be wrong. if you read the series you'd understand. Robert >>> Jordan >>> is simply taking a loooooooong time to tell his story. Book 10 is due >>> soon, he says there will be twelve, unlike Xanth which is what, 30 >>> book? >> >>> More accurately, Jordan isn't deliberately milking the story -- >>> he's just lost track of where exactly he was going in all the >>> details. Recent books show some evidence of returning to >>> appropriate course. >> >> I disagree. I gave up on Jordan after book 5 or 6 when I became >> confused as to whether or not I had already read the book. I hadn't, >> but the events in each book were sufficiently alike that I was having >> trouble telling the difference. Charles Dickens and other Victorian >> writers used to milk their serial publications because they were being >> paid by the word. Books like "Bleak House" were the result. Jordan >> is a modern day Victorian serial writer. It's a great formula - >> develop a rich world, fill it with interesting people and places, then >> advance the story a plot-point per book. (OK, I'm exaggerating, but >> the series had a lot of promise and he's gone and scared me off). >> >> As for Anthony, I think he's gone senile - "The colour of her Panties" >> - puh-lease. And puns are the lowest form of humour - the ONLY form >> of humour he seems capable of nowadays. To think this is the same >> fellow who wrote "Macroscope" and the "Omnivore, Orn & Ox" series. >> > Chris Wrote >> You should WoT again. Its gotten better, especially book eight on >> (ignore the blatant plot manipulation in Path of Daggers and you'll be >> fine). > > My brother reads them. I'll wait until the series is wrapped up then > borrow the whole lot and hole up in a cabin for a week. What doesn't > kill you makes you stronger, right? > All in one week? Wow, you are a glutton for self abuse ;-) --- "We cannot accomplish great things - just little ones, with great love." -Mother Teresa From ijamie at sympatico.ca Mon Nov 18 16:21:27 2002 From: ijamie at sympatico.ca (Ian Jamieson) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 19:21:27 -0500 Subject: Waylander References: Message-ID: <005d01c28f61$99cddb80$91885f41@srnmnigo> > Hey you guys, > > Have any of you all read the Waylander trilogy by David Gemmell? I just > finished it and really enjoyed it. > > Scott No, but, I have read some of his other stuff. 'Legend' springs to mind. The characters are rather two dimensional and the plotlines obvious, but they are fun to read. Ian From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Nov 18 16:06:33 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 18:06:33 -0600 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) In-Reply-To: References: <20021118225607.GD2019@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20021119000633.GB1205@infodancer.org> On Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 06:45:31PM -0500, Chris Turkel wrote: > On Monday, November 18, 2002, at 05:56 PM, Matthew Hunter wrote: > >On Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 04:57:59PM -0500, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > >>In a message dated 11/16/2002 3:40:59 PM Eastern Standard > >>Time, Matthew Hunter writes: > >>>On Sat, Nov 16, 2002 at 03:54:48PM -0500, Chris Turkel > >>> wrote: > >>>>On Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 03:34 PM, Matthew > >>>>Hunter wrote: > >>>>>He's already *in* that series. > >>>>>Disguised as Bela. > >>>>What??? I thought he was Egwene. Damn! > >>>Only in order to kill Asmodean. ?You'll note Bela had > >>>vanished around that time. > >>Actually, Bela shows up in _Path of Daggers_ on page 349. > >Well after Asmodean's death. :) > On a side note, I met RJ at a book signing and said Asmodean's killer > is "obvious" but he said Bela wasn't the killer, nor any other kind of > animal. Well, of course, if Bela is really Vlad... Yes, I am familiar with the Asmodean killer quote, which he has given at a number of signings. At risk of being overly pedantic, if you're really interested (and not just joking around): http://www.linuxmafia.com/jordan/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.6_asmo.html -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From zizban at adelphia.net Mon Nov 18 16:30:04 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 19:30:04 -0500 Subject: Waylander In-Reply-To: <005d01c28f61$99cddb80$91885f41@srnmnigo> Message-ID: <0C6BB82A-FB56-11D6-A2DF-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Monday, November 18, 2002, at 07:21 PM, Ian Jamieson wrote: >> Hey you guys, >> >> Have any of you all read the Waylander trilogy by David Gemmell? I >> just >> finished it and really enjoyed it. >> >> Scott > > No, but, I have read some of his other stuff. 'Legend' springs to > mind. > The characters are rather two dimensional and the plotlines obvious, > but > they are fun to read. > > Ian > > Why stop there? Read my book! heh :-) http://homepage.mac.com/zizban/edge.html --- "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein From seanp at ea.com Mon Nov 18 16:27:42 2002 From: seanp at ea.com (Penney, Sean) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 16:27:42 -0800 Subject: Waylander Message-ID: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F594E8@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> > Hey you guys, > > Have any of you all read the Waylander trilogy by David Gemmell? I just > finished it and really enjoyed it. > > Scott > No, but, I have read some of his other stuff. 'Legend' springs to mind. >The characters are rather two dimensional and the plotlines obvious, but >they are fun to read. >Ian My wife *loves* them and has been bugging me to read them for a couple years now. But I'm scared my he-man friends will notice and lose all respect for me... (I'm joking of course - hey, not the face, not the face!) From zizban at adelphia.net Mon Nov 18 16:39:02 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 19:39:02 -0500 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) In-Reply-To: <20021119000633.GB1205@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <4CCA5AA6-FB57-11D6-A2DF-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Monday, November 18, 2002, at 07:06 PM, Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 06:45:31PM -0500, Chris Turkel > wrote: >> On Monday, November 18, 2002, at 05:56 PM, Matthew Hunter wrote: >>> On Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 04:57:59PM -0500, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >>>> In a message dated 11/16/2002 3:40:59 PM Eastern Standard >>>> Time, Matthew Hunter writes: >>>>> On Sat, Nov 16, 2002 at 03:54:48PM -0500, Chris Turkel >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> On Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 03:34 PM, Matthew >>>>>> Hunter wrote: >>>>>>> He's already *in* that series. >>>>>>> Disguised as Bela. >>>>>> What??? I thought he was Egwene. Damn! >>>>> Only in order to kill Asmodean. ?You'll note Bela had >>>>> vanished around that time. >>>> Actually, Bela shows up in _Path of Daggers_ on page 349. >>> Well after Asmodean's death. :) >> On a side note, I met RJ at a book signing and said Asmodean's killer >> is "obvious" but he said Bela wasn't the killer, nor any other kind of >> animal. > > Well, of course, if Bela is really Vlad... > > Yes, I am familiar with the Asmodean killer quote, which he has > given at a number of signings. At risk of being overly pedantic, > if you're really interested (and not just joking around): > > http://www.linuxmafia.com/jordan/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.6_asmo.html > > -- > Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) > Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp > Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt > > How addicted am I? I have the entire wehll FAQ downloaded. I need a life :-) --- "It's a bad critic who tries to use fiction to psychoanalyze the author."---Orson Scott Card From davids at kithrup.com Mon Nov 18 16:57:36 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 16:57:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) In-Reply-To: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F594E4@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Penney, Sean wrote: >I disagree. I gave up on Jordan after book 5 or 6 Disclaimer: All I know about Robert Jordan & the Wheel of Time series is what I've read as snippets in rasfw and other SF lists. But I still thought this was freakin' hilarious: http://www.darkfriends.net/princessmoo/Humor/wrapup.txt Snork! From pyranf at attbi.com Mon Nov 18 18:44:16 2002 From: pyranf at attbi.com (Pyran Firebrand) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 18:44:16 -0800 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001901c28f75$8e3a3480$749de60c@shitstorm> [snipping everything said on this thread as there's too much I'd end up quoting ;-)] I read the first 8 Wheel of Time books. I probably won't read any more. My problem, ultimately, was twofold: the story was lost entirely, and throwaway characters. There were entire books -- Path of Daggers comes to mind, as does the one previous to it -- that were unnecessary. They didn't materially advance the plot, and all they did was further confuse the reader. There is an overarching plot to the series; unfortunately, the Robert Jordan has gotten so wrapped up in the tiny little details of his world that the plot itself has been thrown to the winds in many cases. The other problem was that RJ spent way too much time on throwaway characters. EVERYONE had a name and backstory. You'd get a new little character, and he'd be on for exactly three pages: one for his introduction and purpose, one for his *entire life story*, and one for his exit from the book. Then he'd never be seen again. The end result is a plot further confused by a plethora of names that are of no use. This is especially frustrating when you wait a year to read the next book -- by that time, you need three whiteboards and a Rolodex to get everyone's name and purpose straight. I liked the series -- it was very good at the beginning. But it lost its way around the 6th book or so, and by the time it found it again (from what I'm told the latest book is excellent and, more importantly, relevant again) I had lost interest. The only way I'd be able to make sense of a new book is to reread all 6400 pages or so of the first 8 books, and I have other things I want to read. By the way, re: Asmodean -- my friend and I came up with what we think is the answer to the mystery -- it's the only answer that makes sense in light of RJ's comments and the available evidence. I really want to post it here, but I don't want to give away spoilers to those interested in the books. Therefore, if you're curious, email me and I'll tell you. Or, if people don't mind, I'll post it here. :-) Later... -Ari From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Nov 18 18:52:16 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 20:52:16 -0600 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) In-Reply-To: <001901c28f75$8e3a3480$749de60c@shitstorm> References: <001901c28f75$8e3a3480$749de60c@shitstorm> Message-ID: <20021119025216.GA8913@infodancer.org> On Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 06:44:16PM -0800, Pyran Firebrand wrote: > [snipping everything said on this thread as there's too much I'd end up > quoting ;-)] > I read the first 8 Wheel of Time books. I probably won't read any more. A number of people said that prior to the last book and found themselves buying it anyway. > There were entire books -- Path of Daggers comes to mind, as does the > one previous to it -- that were unnecessary. They didn't materially > advance the plot, and all they did was further confuse the reader. > There is an overarching plot to the series; unfortunately, the Robert > Jordan has gotten so wrapped up in the tiny little details of his world > that the plot itself has been thrown to the winds in many cases. This is true. > The other problem was that RJ spent way too much time on throwaway > characters. EVERYONE had a name and backstory. You'd get a new little > character, and he'd be on for exactly three pages: one for his > introduction and purpose, one for his *entire life story*, and one for > his exit from the book. Then he'd never be seen again. The end result > is a plot further confused by a plethora of names that are of no use. > This is especially frustrating when you wait a year to read the next > book -- by that time, you need three whiteboards and a Rolodex to get > everyone's name and purpose straight. I do not know if it will terrify you or merely evoke a small, resigned sigh, but I am obligated to inform you that in the entire Wheel of Time, Robert Jordan has yet to include a throwaway character. Literally everyone we meet has an important story function to fulfill, and if we have never seen them before and they get 3 pages of life story, it's practically certain we will see them later on or have seen them before -- in disguise if nothing else. > I liked the series -- it was very good at the beginning. But it lost > its way around the 6th book or so, and by the time it found it again > (from what I'm told the latest book is excellent and, more importantly, > relevant again) I had lost interest. The only way I'd be able to make > sense of a new book is to reread all 6400 pages or so of the first 8 > books, and I have other things I want to read. This is much easier when you read quickly. > By the way, re: Asmodean -- my friend and I came up with what we think > is the answer to the mystery -- it's the only answer that makes sense in > light of RJ's comments and the available evidence. If only there was such an answer. > I really want to > post it here, but I don't want to give away spoilers to those interested > in the books. Therefore, if you're curious, email me and I'll tell you. > Or, if people don't mind, I'll post it here. :-) The fact that Asmodean is dead is a sufficient spoiler. RJ shows no hints of revealing the real killer in subsequent books. (Feel free to send it to me privately, if you've read the FAQ entry and taken those arguments into account). -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From ladybirdsleeps at hotmail.com Mon Nov 18 21:10:46 2002 From: ladybirdsleeps at hotmail.com (The Hostile Takeover Party) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 05:10:46 +0000 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) Message-ID: And here I thought I'd be jumping into a Vlad trivia game. I'm /so/ disappointed. No, really. Imagining Morrolan as Vanna White has made my day. -[Snap!] goes the dragon. http://snapdragon.cjb.net ---------------------------------------------- "I'm lots smarter than you are. I challenge you to understand even one of my paragraphs!" ---------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ MSN Motor: K?p & s?lj din bil h?r http://carview.msn.se/bilsok/ From Randi128 at aol.com Tue Nov 19 08:56:37 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:56:37 EST Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) Message-ID: <129.1b6fd2e9.2b0bc745@aol.com> On Mon Nov 18, 2002 at 5:57 PM Chris Turkel wrote >More accurately, Jordan isn't deliberately milking the story-- >he's just lost track of where exactly he was going...... Ha, ha, ha, ha-- We've been down this thread before and I do believe it got real ugly. I have to say once again that a truly promising series turned dissapointing after the author decided they were Homer. Anyone for Herman Wouk?????? Now there is a guy who can milk a story. You gotta love an author like Steve, who can write a book that is to the point, exciting and moves quickly. John D. Barbato,O.D. "I miss everything I'll never be.", Billy Corgin, smashing punkins From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Nov 19 09:12:48 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 09:12:48 -0800 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) In-Reply-To: <129.1b6fd2e9.2b0bc745@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021119091221.00a97ac0@localhost> At 11:56 AM 11/19/2002 -0500, Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > You gotta love an author >like Steve, who can write a book that is to the point, exciting and moves >quickly. Like _The Phoenix Guards_, right? From jalipaz at stanford.edu Tue Nov 19 09:19:33 2002 From: jalipaz at stanford.edu (Julie Alipaz) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 09:19:33 -0800 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have read them all and this is hilarious jaa >On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Penney, Sean wrote: > >>I disagree. I gave up on Jordan after book 5 or 6 > >Disclaimer: All I know about Robert Jordan & the Wheel of Time series >is what I've read as snippets in rasfw and other SF lists. > >But I still thought this was freakin' hilarious: > > http://www.darkfriends.net/princessmoo/Humor/wrapup.txt > >Snork! From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Nov 19 09:24:32 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 09:24:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) Message-ID: <200211191724.gAJHOTC11016@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > > You gotta love an author > >like Steve, who can write a book that is to the point, exciting and moves > >quickly. > > Like _The Phoenix Guards_, right? Exactly, like the Phoenix Gua... Uh.... Nevermind... (Actualy, Phoenix Guards kept MY attention, was exciting, and moved fast enough to keep me interested. I've read other books that weren't as "Dumas"-y and found myself yawning. So, yeah! Like TPG!!!) Chris "Bush wakes up in the morning just to piss me off." ~Amanda Cotten From Randi128 at aol.com Tue Nov 19 09:33:26 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 12:33:26 EST Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) Message-ID: <184.12221988.2b0bcfe6@aol.com> Skzb wrote: Like Phoenix Guards??? Alright- so when in your "Dumas mode" you are a little long winded. I can only say I overlook your weak points out of admiration (or just plain stupidity, which is more likely). And I thought Phoneix Guards moved along quite nicely, even when trying to be long winded and verbose, you tend to keep it interesting. Stop trying to be humble, we all know your head is swollen to 10 times that of a normal man! John D. Barbato,O.D. "I miss everything I'll never be.", Billy Corgin, smashing punkins From loki at twwol.dyndns.org Tue Nov 19 09:33:58 2002 From: loki at twwol.dyndns.org (Loki) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:33:58 -0400 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021119091221.00a97ac0@localhost> Message-ID: On 11/19/02 1:12 PM, "Steven Brust" wrote: > At 11:56 AM 11/19/2002 -0500, Randi128 at aol.com wrote: >> You gotta love an author like Steve, who can write a book that is to the >> point, exciting and moves quickly. > > Like _The Phoenix Guards_, right? Can is not the same as "always does." :) With that said, the most-fun part of the Khaavren romances is reading about Paarfi. Paarfi's a terrible writer but a fascinating character. So the best way I find to read the books is to treat them as an extended monologue. -- "Computer games don't affect kids. I mean if Pacman affected us as kids, we'd all run around in a darkened room munching pills and listening to repetitive music." --- Steven Poole From mneme at io.com Tue Nov 19 09:48:41 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:48:41 -0600 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) In-Reply-To: <200211191724.gAJHOTC11016@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200211191724.gAJHOTC11016@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <15834.31097.686606.792130@fnord.io.com> Chris Olson - SunPS writes: >SB: >> Like _The Phoenix Guards_, right? >Exactly, like the Phoenix Gua... Uh.... Nevermind... Well, actually, exactly like The Phoenix Guards. Like Paths of the Dead, too, actually. >(Actualy, Phoenix Guards kept MY attention, was exciting, >and moved fast enough to keep me interested. I've read >other books that weren't as "Dumas"-y and found myself >yawning. So, yeah! Like TPG!!!) The thing is...yeah, the Phoenix Guards books (all three of them, to date) do move slower than the Vlad series. But they're -still- a lot faster than their source material (certainly, Paths moves amazingly faster than it's source -- Vicompte is OK, but I'm currently plodding my way through 10 Years After [in the four book version], and it's got some extended periods where nothing happens except for some very slow intrigue. Wheras in Paths....well, I'm not going to talk about that, but it's a lot faster. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From jbdelong at uclink.berkeley.edu Tue Nov 19 10:20:12 2002 From: jbdelong at uclink.berkeley.edu (Bradford DeLong) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:20:12 -0800 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) Message-ID: >As for Anthony, I think he's gone senile - "The colour of her >Panties" - puh-lease. And puns are the lowest form of humour - the >ONLY form of humour he seems capable of nowadays. To think this is >the same fellow who wrote "Macroscope" and the "Omnivore, Orn & Ox" >series. Ah. _Macroscope_. I read _Macroscope_ once... In the first few pages he introduced a character named Brad--intelligent, charming, decisive, an excellent companion and assistant to the somewhat-confused protagonist Ivo. By page 100 Brad's mind had been destroyed by an alien video transmission. By page 200 Brad had been accidently turned into a giant starfish by a misguided attempt by his ex-girlfriend to cure his mind using alien technology that she did not understand. The giant starfish then immediately died. I have *never* read anything else by Piers Anthony. Do you think I'm too sensitive? :-) Brad DeLong From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Nov 19 13:21:19 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 16:21:19 -0500 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) In-Reply-To: <200211191724.gAJHOTC11016@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Tuesday, November 19, 2002, at 12:24 PM, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: >>> You gotta love an author >>> like Steve, who can write a book that is to the point, exciting and >>> moves >>> quickly. >> >> Like _The Phoenix Guards_, right? > > Exactly, like the Phoenix Gua... Uh.... Nevermind... > > > (Actualy, Phoenix Guards kept MY attention, was exciting, > and moved fast enough to keep me interested. I've read > other books that weren't as "Dumas"-y and found myself > yawning. So, yeah! Like TPG!!!) Dumas certainly isn't for everyone. I tried to read The Three Musketeers but failed bad. It just wasn't my thing, tho Count of Monte Christo was awesome. From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Tue Nov 19 17:14:28 2002 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 17:14:28 -0800 Subject: Aerich's family crest. Message-ID: <200211191714.AA899613154@amish2000.com> j0, and things. After re-reading TPG and FHYA, and finishing _The Paths of the Dead_, I have concluded that, like Daymar, Paarfi is extremely glompable. I'm not sure if this is all Hawklords or just those two in particular, but I'd like to think that Steve sat down one day and thought, "I need a very glompable House. I bet Hawklords could be glomped very easily. Moreover, it should be a House full of people who, unlike Morrolan, would probably not start taking off heads after being glomped, but instead blink bemusedly." And so on. I could say other things about TPotD, such as that it's YAY to the nth power and that it kept me up all night when I should've been sleeping or studying, but I think that Paarfi's glompiness is the main thing, and in fact the main reason that Steve wrote the entire book. ... If you are wondering about the subject line, it's because I've decided that I want to be as cool as Aerich, and would like to crochet a patch of his family crest. However, I've not been able to find any description of the crest, and wanted to know if Steve had a mental picture of it that he'd be willing to share, or if I'm allowed to just make up something in the Lyorn colors and slap an "A E R I C H" in the middle of it. ? MJ ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ ~ A Pirate Looks At Twenty ~ http://erythros.livejournal.com/ ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Nov 19 14:36:29 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 14:36:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) Message-ID: <200211192236.gAJMaSC02642@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Dumas certainly isn't for everyone. I tried to read The Three > Musketeers but failed bad. It just wasn't my thing, tho Count of Monte > Christo was awesome. Really? I actualy enjoyed it. Even more entertaining were the many changes and alterations between the original book and the few movie versions I've seen of it. I prefered the book to the movies... :) Haven't read Count of Monte Cristo yet, but it's on my "List". Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From davids at kithrup.com Tue Nov 19 14:52:20 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 14:52:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Aerich's family crest. In-Reply-To: <200211191714.AA899613154@amish2000.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Nov 2002, M J wrote: > > >... If you are wondering about the subject line, it's because I've >decided that I want to be as cool as Aerich, and would like to >crochet a patch of his family crest. However, I've not been able >to find any description of the crest, and wanted to know if Steve >had a mental picture of it that he'd be willing to share, or if I'm >allowed to just make up something in the Lyorn colors and slap an >"A E R I C H" in the middle of it. > Ahem. You mean: "Temma, Duke of Arylle, Count of Bra-moor". I mean, I'm sure he'd want to have everything proper and correct. From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Nov 19 15:15:23 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:15:23 -0500 Subject: Aerich's family crest. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tuesday, November 19, 2002, at 05:52 PM, David Silberstein wrote: > On Tue, 19 Nov 2002, M J wrote: > >> >> >> ... If you are wondering about the subject line, it's because I've >> decided that I want to be as cool as Aerich, and would like to >> crochet a patch of his family crest. However, I've not been able >> to find any description of the crest, and wanted to know if Steve >> had a mental picture of it that he'd be willing to share, or if I'm >> allowed to just make up something in the Lyorn colors and slap an >> "A E R I C H" in the middle of it. >> > > Ahem. You mean: "Temma, Duke of Arylle, Count of Bra-moor". > I mean, I'm sure he'd want to have everything proper and correct. > > I hope Bra-moor is a more cheerful place than its name sounds :-) --- "It's a bad critic who tries to use fiction to psychoanalyze the author."---Orson Scott Card From sirchuck at macomb.com Tue Nov 19 15:49:06 2002 From: sirchuck at macomb.com (John Mietus) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 17:49:06 -0600 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Long-time lurker, first-time poster. Chris Turkel said: > Dumas certainly isn't for everyone. I tried to read The Three > Musketeers but failed bad. It just wasn't my thing, tho Count of Monte > Christo was awesome. Depends on the translation. I'm unsure of the version I'm familiar with ("with which I am familiar"), but I enjoy it thoroughly. Monkey pudding, John "Either I think up an idea, or, tomorrow, we die - which, Baldrick, I have to tell you, I have no intention of doing, because I want to be young and wild, and then I want to be middle-aged and rich, and then I want to be old and annoy people by pretending that I'm deaf." -- Edmund Blackadder III, Esq From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Nov 19 16:33:51 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:33:51 -0600 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) In-Reply-To: <15834.31097.686606.792130@fnord.io.com> References: <200211191724.gAJHOTC11016@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <15834.31097.686606.792130@fnord.io.com> Message-ID: <20021120003351.GD1205@infodancer.org> On Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 11:48:41AM -0600, Joshua Kronengold wrote: > The thing is...yeah, the Phoenix Guards books (all three of them, to > date) do move slower than the Vlad series. But they're -still- a lot > faster than their source material (certainly, Paths moves amazingly > faster than it's source -- Vicompte is OK, but I'm currently plodding > my way through 10 Years After [in the four book version], and it's got > some extended periods where nothing happens except for some very slow > intrigue. Wheras in Paths....well, I'm not going to talk about that, > but it's a lot faster. ARGH! I have bribed bookstore employees, bugged the storerooms, planted webcams with a view of the "New Releases" section, pestered the website support staff, debugged the B&N stock database, taught principles of search engine usage to centenarians, AND I STILL DO NOT HAVE THIS BOOK. This expression of frustration is dedicated to Tor, the publishers who keep us in loving agony. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From loki at twwol.dyndns.org Tue Nov 19 17:08:44 2002 From: loki at twwol.dyndns.org (Loki) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 21:08:44 -0400 Subject: Aerich's family crest. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11/19/02 7:15 PM, "Chris Turkel" wrote: > I hope Bra-moor is a more cheerful place than its name sounds :-) I can't think of anywhere that sounds more cheerful than the Moor of Bras. :) -- This is way beyond my ken... and my Barbie, and all of my action figures. --- Lorne From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Nov 19 17:19:06 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 20:19:06 -0500 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) In-Reply-To: <20021120003351.GD1205@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <106D0765-FC26-11D6-9301-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Tuesday, November 19, 2002, at 07:33 PM, Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 11:48:41AM -0600, Joshua Kronengold > wrote: >> The thing is...yeah, the Phoenix Guards books (all three of them, to >> date) do move slower than the Vlad series. But they're -still- a lot >> faster than their source material (certainly, Paths moves amazingly >> faster than it's source -- Vicompte is OK, but I'm currently plodding >> my way through 10 Years After [in the four book version], and it's got >> some extended periods where nothing happens except for some very slow >> intrigue. Wheras in Paths....well, I'm not going to talk about that, >> but it's a lot faster. > > ARGH! > > I have bribed bookstore employees, bugged the storerooms, > planted webcams with a view of the "New Releases" section, > pestered the website support staff, debugged the B&N stock > database, taught principles of search engine usage to > centenarians, AND I STILL DO NOT HAVE THIS BOOK. > > This expression of frustration is dedicated to Tor, the > publishers who keep us in loving agony. > > -- > Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) > Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp > Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt > > The release date is 12/01..relax ;-) --- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds; and the pessimist fears this is true." -- James Branch Cabell From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Nov 19 17:34:20 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 19:34:20 -0600 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) In-Reply-To: <106D0765-FC26-11D6-9301-00039386187A@adelphia.net> References: <20021120003351.GD1205@infodancer.org> <106D0765-FC26-11D6-9301-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <20021120013420.GE1205@infodancer.org> On Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 08:19:06PM -0500, Chris Turkel wrote: > On Tuesday, November 19, 2002, at 07:33 PM, Matthew Hunter wrote: > >I have bribed bookstore employees, bugged the storerooms, > >planted webcams with a view of the "New Releases" section, > >pestered the website support staff, debugged the B&N stock > >database, taught principles of search engine usage to > >centenarians, AND I STILL DO NOT HAVE THIS BOOK. > >This expression of frustration is dedicated to Tor, the > >publishers who keep us in loving agony. > The release date is 12/01..relax ;-) Not when I've found a bookstore (which shall remain nameless to protect the innocent) that still has it listed as a November release. The books have to be delivered early in order to have a coordinated release, and if the employees don't know enough not to give it to me right off the delivery vehicle... Someday I will run a bookstore for exactly this reason. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From ambyrglow at softhome.net Tue Nov 19 18:04:12 2002 From: ambyrglow at softhome.net (Claire Rojstaczer) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 21:04:12 -0500 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) In-Reply-To: <20021120013420.GE1205@infodancer.org> References: <20021120003351.GD1205@infodancer.org> <106D0765-FC26-11D6-9301-00039386187A@adelphia.net> <20021120013420.GE1205@infodancer.org> Message-ID: >Matthew Hunter said: >Not when I've found a bookstore (which shall remain nameless to >protect the innocent) that still has it listed as a November >release. The books have to be delivered early in order to have a >coordinated release, and if the employees don't know enough not >to give it to me right off the delivery vehicle... > >Someday I will run a bookstore for exactly this reason. > Which reason? So you can get them right off the delivery vehicle, or so you can prevent your employees from selling them in such a fashion, thereby continuing the torment of those not in such a priviledged position? Claire From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Nov 19 18:02:20 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 20:02:20 -0600 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) In-Reply-To: References: <20021120003351.GD1205@infodancer.org> <106D0765-FC26-11D6-9301-00039386187A@adelphia.net> <20021120013420.GE1205@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20021120020220.GF1205@infodancer.org> On Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 09:04:12PM -0500, Claire Rojstaczer wrote: > >Matthew Hunter said: > >Not when I've found a bookstore (which shall remain nameless to > >protect the innocent) that still has it listed as a November > >release. The books have to be delivered early in order to have a > >coordinated release, and if the employees don't know enough not > >to give it to me right off the delivery vehicle... > >Someday I will run a bookstore for exactly this reason. > Which reason? So you can get them right off the delivery vehicle, or > so you can prevent your employees from selling them in such a > fashion, thereby continuing the torment of those not in such a > priviledged position? Both. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Nov 19 18:31:58 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 21:31:58 -0500 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) In-Reply-To: <20021120020220.GF1205@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <3E479283-FC30-11D6-9301-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Tuesday, November 19, 2002, at 09:02 PM, Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 09:04:12PM -0500, Claire Rojstaczer > wrote: >>> Matthew Hunter said: >>> Not when I've found a bookstore (which shall remain nameless to >>> protect the innocent) that still has it listed as a November >>> release. The books have to be delivered early in order to have a >>> coordinated release, and if the employees don't know enough not >>> to give it to me right off the delivery vehicle... >>> Someday I will run a bookstore for exactly this reason. >> Which reason? So you can get them right off the delivery vehicle, or >> so you can prevent your employees from selling them in such a >> fashion, thereby continuing the torment of those not in such a >> priviledged position? > > Both. I had a friend who worked barnes and noble and he told me that if the bookstore put a book on the shelf before the release date they get fined by the publisher, whatever that means. --- "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Nov 19 18:34:17 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:34:17 -0800 Subject: Aerich's family crest. In-Reply-To: <200211191714.AA899613154@amish2000.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021119183240.033e8030@localhost> At 05:14 PM 11/19/2002 -0800, M J wrote: > > >... If you are wondering about the subject line, it's because I've >decided that I want to be as cool as Aerich, and would like to >crochet a patch of his family crest. However, I've not been able >to find any description of the crest, and wanted to know if Steve >had a mental picture of it that he'd be willing to share, or if I'm >allowed to just make up something in the Lyorn colors and slap an >"A E R I C H" in the middle of it. > Nope, I have nothing in mind. Glad you liked the book. I'm currently running at %100 on reader reactions. This is unlikely to last after a second person has read it, so I propose to enjoy it now, like the baseball player who gets a hit in his first major league at bat, and knows that never again will he have a career batting average of 1000. From jjm57 at cornell.edu Tue Nov 19 18:39:21 2002 From: jjm57 at cornell.edu (Jeremy Michel) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 21:39:21 -0500 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) In-Reply-To: References: <200211191724.gAJHOTC11016@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021119213148.02579090@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> At 04:21 PM 11/19/2002 -0500, you wrote: >On Tuesday, November 19, 2002, at 12:24 PM, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > >>>> You gotta love an author >>>>like Steve, who can write a book that is to the point, exciting and moves >>>>quickly. >>> >>>Like _The Phoenix Guards_, right? >> >>Exactly, like the Phoenix Gua... Uh.... Nevermind... >> >> >>(Actualy, Phoenix Guards kept MY attention, was exciting, >>and moved fast enough to keep me interested. I've read >>other books that weren't as "Dumas"-y and found myself >>yawning. So, yeah! Like TPG!!!) > >Dumas certainly isn't for everyone. I tried to read The Three Musketeers >but failed bad. It just wasn't my thing, tho Count of Monte Christo was >awesome. want something wierd The first time i read The Three Musketeers i started at the begining and read the forward even. About half way through i though 'hmm, this voice sounds familiar" so i go to the end of the forward to see who wrote it and guess what "Steven Brust, PJF". I started laughing (I had read Phoenix Guards before Musketeers.) but it was definately something i thought to share here. Popcorn? -ME From tyan at twcny.rr.com Tue Nov 19 18:49:47 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 21:49:47 -0500 Subject: Aerich's family crest. In-Reply-To: (Loki's message of "Tue, 19 Nov 2002 21:08:44 -0400") References: Message-ID: Loki writes: > On 11/19/02 7:15 PM, "Chris Turkel" wrote: > >> I hope Bra-moor is a more cheerful place than its name sounds :-) > > I can't think of anywhere that sounds more cheerful than the Moor of Bras. > > :) Bra-moor is sounds awfully close to me to "rommalB" backwards, from McKillip's _The Forgotten Beasts of Eld_, so it sounds like a scary place to me. From agrajag at dragaera.net Tue Nov 19 19:43:47 2002 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 19 Nov 2002 22:43:47 -0500 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) In-Reply-To: <106D0765-FC26-11D6-9301-00039386187A@adelphia.net> References: <106D0765-FC26-11D6-9301-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <1037763827.1419.6.camel@loiosh> On Tue, 2002-11-19 at 20:19, Chris Turkel wrote: > > I have bribed bookstore employees, bugged the storerooms, > > planted webcams with a view of the "New Releases" section, > > pestered the website support staff, debugged the B&N stock > > database, taught principles of search engine usage to > > centenarians, AND I STILL DO NOT HAVE THIS BOOK. > > > > This expression of frustration is dedicated to Tor, the > > publishers who keep us in loving agony. > > > > -- > > Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) > > Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp > > Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt > > > > > The release date is 12/01..relax ;-) When I called the local B&N on Thur, they said that it was scheduled for a November release, and that they had 14 copies on order (don't see why they didn't order 17 :), but none of them were in yet. But they did give every indication that I should be able to get the book before the month is through. And in all actuallity I would have been calling them every day since (and hopefully have had it by now) if I wasn't stuck out of town on a business trip. But this just gives me more time to finish reading FHYA before picking up PotD :) From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Nov 19 22:59:55 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 00:59:55 -0600 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) In-Reply-To: <3E479283-FC30-11D6-9301-00039386187A@adelphia.net> References: <20021120020220.GF1205@infodancer.org> <3E479283-FC30-11D6-9301-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <20021120065955.GK1205@infodancer.org> On Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 09:31:58PM -0500, Chris Turkel wrote: > On Tuesday, November 19, 2002, at 09:02 PM, Matthew Hunter wrote: > >On Tue, Nov 19, 2002 at 09:04:12PM -0500, Claire Rojstaczer > > wrote: > >>>Matthew Hunter said: > >>>Not when I've found a bookstore (which shall remain nameless to > >>>protect the innocent) that still has it listed as a November > >>>release. The books have to be delivered early in order to have a > >>>coordinated release, and if the employees don't know enough not > >>>to give it to me right off the delivery vehicle... > >>>Someday I will run a bookstore for exactly this reason. > >>Which reason? So you can get them right off the delivery vehicle, or > >>so you can prevent your employees from selling them in such a > >>fashion, thereby continuing the torment of those not in such a > >>priviledged position? > >Both. > I had a friend who worked barnes and noble and he told me that if the > bookstore put a book on the shelf before the release date they get > fined by the publisher, whatever that means. If I own the bookstore, I don't have to put it on the shelf to read my copy. :) (But this is my understand of what happens as well -- if the bookstore is caught; there are ways around it, such as, for example, their misfiling the release date, or calling me about a reserve copy before it is officially released, or simple bribery). -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From nytemuse at auros.org Tue Nov 19 23:23:27 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 23:23:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) In-Reply-To: <3E479283-FC30-11D6-9301-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Nov 2002, Chris Turkel wrote: > I had a friend who worked barnes and noble and he told me that if the > bookstore put a book on the shelf before the release date they get > fined by the publisher, whatever that means. This is true. I didn't work at B&N, but I DID work at Blockbuster Video for a few years and I believe the policies are the same. When a publisher or studio agrees to supplement stores with their merchandise, they kind of sign a contract with the store that they'll follow certain guidelines, otherwise the deal is off or penalties incur. One of those guidelines is that the store releases the merchandise on the date dictated by the publisher. As employees, we were allowed to view the material up to a week in advance, because it was like review copies, since Blockbuster Video expected its employees to be able to tell customers about the movies. Once or twice, some of the ppl at our store rented them to friends (non-employee friends), and got in big trouble because if the studios found out, they'd cancel their contract with Blockbuster. ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From nytemuse at auros.org Tue Nov 19 23:27:59 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 23:27:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) In-Reply-To: <20021120065955.GK1205@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Nov 2002, Matthew Hunter wrote: > If I own the bookstore, I don't have to put it on the shelf to > read my copy. :) (But this is my understand of what happens as > well -- if the bookstore is caught; there are ways around it, > such as, for example, their misfiling the release date, or > calling me about a reserve copy before it is officially > released, or simple bribery). Actually, I suspect that if you owned the bookstore, you _personally_ could read it early. Since you, as an employee, should be up-to-date to best serve your customers, it'd be the same as we could do at Blockbuster. Review copies; gotta love 'em. :) ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From zizban at adelphia.net Wed Nov 20 05:11:40 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:11:40 -0500 Subject: Aerich's family crest. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9BC25B00-FC89-11D6-A4F9-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Tuesday, November 19, 2002, at 09:49 PM, Thomas Yan wrote: > Loki writes: > >> On 11/19/02 7:15 PM, "Chris Turkel" wrote: >> >>> I hope Bra-moor is a more cheerful place than its name sounds :-) >> >> I can't think of anywhere that sounds more cheerful than the Moor of >> Bras. >> >> :) > > Bra-moor is sounds awfully close to me to "rommalB" backwards, from > McKillip's _The Forgotten Beasts of Eld_, so it sounds like a scary > place to me. and knowing how Steve likes to put in sly references in his works, I wouldn't be surprised if this was true. --- "I won't eat anything I can't pronounce."---overheard in class From RuhlenR at missouri.edu Wed Nov 20 06:30:49 2002 From: RuhlenR at missouri.edu (Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student)) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:30:49 -0600 Subject: Aerich's family crest. Message-ID: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E01245524@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> > -----Original Message----- > From: Loki [mailto:loki at twwol.dyndns.org] > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 7:09 PM > To: Dragaera Mailing List > Subject: Re: Aerich's family crest. > I can't think of anywhere that sounds more cheerful than the > Moor of Bras. Do you have to wear them? I think Bra-less sounds way better. So would at least one male of my acquaintance! Rachel From mtiller at ntlworld.com Wed Nov 20 06:37:06 2002 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 14:37:06 -0000 Subject: Aerich's family crest. In-Reply-To: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E01245524@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: <000001c290a2$4cab9490$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> Actually, all these spelling variations on a theme remind me of the dDyslexic agnostic insommniac who lay awake at night wondering if there really was a dog. :-) -----Original Message----- From: Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student) [mailto:RuhlenR at missouri.edu] Sent: 20 November 2002 14:31 To: Dragaera Mailing List Subject: RE: Aerich's family crest. > -----Original Message----- > From: Loki [mailto:loki at twwol.dyndns.org] > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 7:09 PM > To: Dragaera Mailing List > Subject: Re: Aerich's family crest. > I can't think of anywhere that sounds more cheerful than the > Moor of Bras. Do you have to wear them? I think Bra-less sounds way better. So would at least one male of my acquaintance! Rachel From loki at twwol.dyndns.org Wed Nov 20 08:12:27 2002 From: loki at twwol.dyndns.org (Loki) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:12:27 -0400 Subject: Aerich's family crest. In-Reply-To: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E01245524@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: On 11/20/02 10:30 AM, "Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student)" wrote: >> I can't think of anywhere that sounds more cheerful than the >> Moor of Bras. > > Do you have to wear them? I think Bra-less sounds way better. So would > at least one male of my acquaintance! Perhaps the Moor removes them. After all, what woman can resist a handsome Moor? ;) -- The unwise man thinks he will live for ever if he shuns fight, But old age gives him no peace though spears may shun him. --- The Havamal From jalipaz at stanford.edu Wed Nov 20 09:15:02 2002 From: jalipaz at stanford.edu (Julie Alipaz) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 09:15:02 -0800 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) In-Reply-To: <1037763827.1419.6.camel@loiosh> References: <106D0765-FC26-11D6-9301-00039386187A@adelphia.net> <1037763827.1419.6.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: my local Borders told me i couldd have it on friday, they have it down for a nove 18 release. jaa > > >When I called the local B&N on Thur, they said that it was scheduled for >a November release, and that they had 14 copies on order (don't see why >they didn't order 17 :), but none of them were in yet. But they did >give every indication that I should be able to get the book before the >month is through. And in all actuallity I would have been calling them >every day since (and hopefully have had it by now) if I wasn't stuck out >of town on a business trip. > >But this just gives me more time to finish reading FHYA before picking >up PotD :) From electrictwilight at hotmail.com Wed Nov 20 10:35:27 2002 From: electrictwilight at hotmail.com (H. T.) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 18:35:27 +0000 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) Message-ID: >I had a friend who worked barnes and noble and he told me that if the >bookstore put a book on the shelf before the release date they get fined by >the publisher, whatever that means. I do not know about being fined by the publisher, but as set forth in Naval Institute v. Charter Communications (1996?), they can be liable for damages resulting profits earned for early releases. In fact, the trial court in this case went as far as to say that early release was copyright infringement; however, the Court of Appeals overturned this. Before this case, which involved the paperback release of "Red October", it was common practice in the book trade to release books before the scheduled date (these facts come straight from the case itself). However, after this, I would think, though I do not know for sure, distributors started rethinking their practice of releasing books early. According to my contracts professor, however, distributors and book stores will still release books early IF they think that the liability(damages/money)they will incur (have to pay) will be less than the profits they will earn for releasing the book early. (Such in the case of Naval v. Charter, wherein they made something like $100,000 and were only forced to pay out around $30,000). Therefore, my logic is this: perhaps if everyone starts calling the bookstores and distributors like mad and somehow, someway, make them believe they will turn a larger profit for an early release than the liability they may/may not incur, they will release the book early. Just a thought. See what the first year of legal education can get you, the ability to b/s everything even better than you could before! Gee wowie! I can only guess what trivial junk my head will be filled with by the third year. On another note, or maybe not so much another note, PoD is wonderful, and for whoever said it is slower than the Vlad series though faster than TPG and FYA I completely disagree. So far, (as I am only 2 1/2 chapters into it) I think it is as fast paced as the most of the books of the Vlad series, but like TPG and FYA, it is more descriptive in nature as to its scenes, history, etc. Thank you Steve for writing something new and interesting to keep my mind off of this ever so boring stuff I probably should be keeping it on. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Nov 20 12:04:26 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:04:26 -0800 Subject: Paths In-Reply-To: References: <1037763827.1419.6.camel@loiosh> <106D0765-FC26-11D6-9301-00039386187A@adelphia.net> <1037763827.1419.6.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021120120350.038cce70@localhost> I got mine today. And a handsome volume it is. From rone at ennui.org Wed Nov 20 12:49:41 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:49:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Paths In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021120120350.038cce70@localhost> Message-ID: <20021120204941.3BF6126E2C@boredom.ennui.org> Steven Brust writes: I got mine today. And a handsome volume it is. Well, do give us a review when you're done reading it. rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Wed Nov 20 15:51:20 2002 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 15:51:20 -0800 Subject: Paths Message-ID: <200211201551.AA1354302116@amish2000.com> From: Steven Brust Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:04:26 -0800 >I got mine today. And a handsome volume it is. *squeak* I got mine before Steve did! Mind, he probably didn't have to bribe several people and threaten to cry all over bookstore-owning boyfriends in order to get his mitts on the sucker. ? MJ From mneme at io.com Wed Nov 20 13:06:07 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 15:06:07 -0600 Subject: Paths In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021120120350.038cce70@localhost> References: <1037763827.1419.6.camel@loiosh> <106D0765-FC26-11D6-9301-00039386187A@adelphia.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20021120120350.038cce70@localhost> Message-ID: <15835.63807.354083.79280@hagbard.io.com> Steven Brust writes: >I got mine today. And a handsome volume it is. It is indeed. But...who's the guy on the cover? M.? And why the smirk? -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com Wed Nov 20 13:09:37 2002 From: lowkiliesmith at hotmail.com (Lowki Liesmith) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:09:37 -0500 Subject: Paths Message-ID: sorry, i think i just may be an idiot, but when does paths come out? or did it already come out. i was told the 18th by borders and december 1st by media play. please? any one? >From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) >To: SKZB List >Subject: Re: Paths >Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:49:41 -0800 (PST) > >Steven Brust writes: > I got mine today. And a handsome volume it is. > >Well, do give us a review when you're done reading it. > >rone >-- >New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear >that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Nov 20 13:29:47 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 13:29:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Paths Message-ID: <200211202129.gAKLTjC09586@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > I got mine today. And a handsome volume it is. Steven Brust - Redefining the word "EVIL"!!!! OK, time to call my bookstore-owning ex and see how quickly I can get a copy... Grrr.... Chris "I feel if a person can't communicate, the very least they can do is shut up." ~ Tom Lehrer ~ From zizban at adelphia.net Wed Nov 20 13:35:47 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:35:47 -0500 Subject: Paths In-Reply-To: <200211202129.gAKLTjC09586@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <08178CFE-FCD0-11D6-A4F9-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Wednesday, November 20, 2002, at 04:29 PM, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: >> I got mine today. And a handsome volume it is. > > Steven Brust - Redefining the word "EVIL"!!!! > > OK, time to call my bookstore-owning ex and see > how quickly I can get a copy... > > Grrr.... > > Chris > > "I feel if a person can't communicate, > the very least they can do is shut up." > ~ Tom Lehrer ~ Remember authors get freebie copies when their book goes into production, regardless of actual 'release date'. This doesn't change the fact that Steve is evil, evil-evil-evil! (Kids in the Hall reference there). ----- Buy my book! http://homepage.mac.com/zizban From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Wed Nov 20 16:32:46 2002 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:32:46 -0800 Subject: Paths Message-ID: <200211201632.AA913900150@amish2000.com> From: Chris Turkel Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:35:47 -0500 >On Wednesday, November 20, 2002, at 04:29 PM, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: >> Steven Brust - Redefining the word "EVIL"!!!! >> >> OK, time to call my bookstore-owning ex and see >> how quickly I can get a copy... > >Remember authors get freebie copies when their book goes into >production, regardless of actual 'release date'. This doesn't change >the fact that Steve is evil, evil-evil-evil! (Kids in the Hall >reference there). O_o It is YOUR FAULT that I will now be thinking of Khaavren as Sir Simon Milligan and Pel as Hecubus for the next long while. ? MJ From zizban at adelphia.net Wed Nov 20 13:43:54 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:43:54 -0500 Subject: Paths In-Reply-To: <200211201632.AA913900150@amish2000.com> Message-ID: <2A51F67C-FCD1-11D6-A4F9-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Wednesday, November 20, 2002, at 07:32 PM, M J wrote: > > > From: Chris Turkel > Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:35:47 -0500 >> On Wednesday, November 20, 2002, at 04:29 PM, Chris Olson - SunPS > wrote: >>> Steven Brust - Redefining the word "EVIL"!!!! >>> >>> OK, time to call my bookstore-owning ex and see >>> how quickly I can get a copy... >> >> Remember authors get freebie copies when their book goes into >> production, regardless of actual 'release date'. This doesn't > change >> the fact that Steve is evil, evil-evil-evil! (Kids in the Hall >> reference there). > > O_o It is YOUR FAULT that I will now be thinking of Khaavren as > Sir Simon Milligan and Pel as Hecubus for the next long while. > hey hey ;-) I think that's a good thing. I actually named my old cat Hecubus. --- "We cannot accomplish great things - just little ones, with great love." -Mother Teresa From mneme at io.com Wed Nov 20 14:14:26 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:14:26 -0600 Subject: Paths In-Reply-To: <200211201551.AA1354302116@amish2000.com> References: <200211201551.AA1354302116@amish2000.com> Message-ID: <15836.2370.304465.12285@hagbard.io.com> M J writes: >From: Steven Brust > >>I got mine today. And a handsome volume it is. >*squeak* I got mine before Steve did! >Mind, he probably didn't have to bribe several people and threaten >to cry all over bookstore-owning boyfriends in order to get his >mitts on the sucker. What have I done? Ok, what I've done is allow MJ to get her hands on the book before Steve did, but I mean, aside from that. :) -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From Spamme13 at aol.com Wed Nov 20 14:22:27 2002 From: Spamme13 at aol.com (Spamme13 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 17:22:27 EST Subject: Is this, in fact, the correct address to post to the Draegara list? Message-ID: <19c.c3eb621.2b0d6523@aol.com> I think I covered my conerns in the subject. ---AS From mam at theworld.com Wed Nov 20 14:28:24 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 17:28:24 -0500 Subject: Is this, in fact, the correct address to post to the Draegara list? In-Reply-To: <19c.c3eb621.2b0d6523@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Nov 2002 Spamme13 at aol.com wrote: #I think I covered my conerns in the subject. Yes, you did, but that's not generally a good idea. Some mail- and news-readers don't display all of a long subject line, so it's best to put any critical information in the text even if you have it in the subject line as well. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Nov 20 15:31:29 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 20 Nov 2002 17:31:29 -0600 Subject: Paths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Lowki Liesmith" writes: > sorry, i think i just may be an idiot, but when does paths come out? > or did it already come out. i was told the 18th by borders and > december 1st by media play. please? any one? Book release dates aren't as cut-and-dried as some sources try to make us think. However, since copies have been reported in bookstores, the real-world answer is that copies will be available somewhere between now and 1-Dec, depending on who told which bookstores what release date, and how carefully they adhere to release dates. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From ambyrglow at softhome.net Wed Nov 20 15:38:58 2002 From: ambyrglow at softhome.net (Claire Rojstaczer) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 18:38:58 -0500 Subject: Paths In-Reply-To: <200211201632.AA913900150@amish2000.com> References: <200211201632.AA913900150@amish2000.com> Message-ID: To whom it may interest. . . http://half.ebay.com/cat/buy/prod.cgi?cpid=1081461950&domain_id=1856&meta_id=1 Two copies of Paths of the Dead available. Claire From dan-tain_ishanti at attbi.com Wed Nov 20 17:34:37 2002 From: dan-tain_ishanti at attbi.com (Brad Crawford) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 17:34:37 -0800 Subject: about release dates References: <08178CFE-FCD0-11D6-A4F9-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <002001c290fe$275b8f40$8fd47e18@we1.client2.attbi.com> Hey all, It seems that there is a lot of confusion regarding release dates. I hope I'm not covering things already gone over. All books have a release date. This is used by the publishers to set schedules, bookstore buyers to know what is coming out when, etc. Some books have a "Strict on Sale" date. Usually books by the big selling authors, and sometimes as a vanity thing for others. This is a firm Do Not Sell Before This Date kind of thing. It can cause fines and/or legal hassles. Paths of the Dead does not have a Strict on Sale date. So, it can be sold as soon as it is received. Brad From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Nov 21 00:17:12 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 00:17:12 -0800 Subject: Paths In-Reply-To: <20021120204941.3BF6126E2C@boredom.ennui.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021120120350.038cce70@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021121001638.0333d2f0@localhost> At 12:49 PM 11/20/2002 -0800, definitely what wrote: >Steven Brust writes: > I got mine today. And a handsome volume it is. > >Well, do give us a review when you're done reading it. Naw. I don't read that guy, I just collect him. Anyone know when Terry Brooks is due to release another? From davids at kithrup.com Thu Nov 21 01:19:20 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 01:19:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Paths In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021121001638.0333d2f0@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Nov 2002, Steven Brust wrote: >At 12:49 PM 11/20/2002 -0800, definitely what wrote: >>Steven Brust writes: >> I got mine today. And a handsome volume it is. >> >>Well, do give us a review when you're done reading it. > >Naw. I don't read that guy, I just collect him. Oh, give it a shot. Why, I've heard tell that he's nearly as good as Piers Anthony. From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Nov 21 06:44:07 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 09:44:07 EST Subject: Paths Message-ID: <129.1b9b50df.2b0e4b37@aol.com> on 12/21 SKZB wrote: Naw, I don't read that guy. Anybody ..... I hear Mr. Brust's Khaveren romances are long winded and boring. I wouldn't know because I could never get through the first two pages of witticisms. Your better off reading the Junie B. Jones series. I hear there is a new one about her losing her teeth. ; ) John D. Barbato,O.D. "I miss everything I'll never be.", Billy Corgin, smashing punkins From righel at msn.com Thu Nov 21 10:07:22 2002 From: righel at msn.com (Rosemary Ighel) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 12:07:22 -0600 Subject: Paths References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021120120350.038cce70@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20021121001638.0333d2f0@localhost> Message-ID: <00df01c29188$d737bfd0$47440aa9@mmm.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Brust" To: "definitely what" ; "SKZB List" Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 2:17 AM Subject: Re: Paths > At 12:49 PM 11/20/2002 -0800, definitely what wrote: > >Steven Brust writes: > > I got mine today. And a handsome volume it is. > > > >Well, do give us a review when you're done reading it. > > Naw. I don't read that guy, I just collect him. Anyone know when Terry > Brooks is due to release another? I see "Two Dead Teckla on the Pillow of Shannara" is on Amazon's "Coming Soon' list, but I'm sorry there's no official Release Date.... R. From jjm57 at cornell.edu Thu Nov 21 10:30:12 2002 From: jjm57 at cornell.edu (Jeremy Michel) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 13:30:12 -0500 Subject: Paths In-Reply-To: <00df01c29188$d737bfd0$47440aa9@mmm.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021120120350.038cce70@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20021121001638.0333d2f0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021121132815.025e74b0@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> At 12:07 PM 11/21/2002 -0600, you wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Steven Brust" >To: "definitely what" ; "SKZB List" >Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 2:17 AM >Subject: Re: Paths > > > > At 12:49 PM 11/20/2002 -0800, definitely what wrote: > > >Steven Brust writes: > > > I got mine today. And a handsome volume it is. > > > > > >Well, do give us a review when you're done reading it. > > > > Naw. I don't read that guy, I just collect him. Anyone know when Terry > > Brooks is due to release another? > >I see "Two Dead Teckla on the Pillow of Shannara" is on Amazon's "Coming >Soon' list, but I'm sorry there's no official Release Date.... > >R. Is that going to be the start of a new crossover series. I wonder how much havok Morrolan would reek on that post apocolyptic world. -ME From seanp at ea.com Thu Nov 21 11:27:34 2002 From: seanp at ea.com (Penney, Sean) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:27:34 -0800 Subject: Paths Message-ID: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F594FD@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> > At 12:49 PM 11/20/2002 -0800, definitely what wrote: > >Steven Brust writes: > > I got mine today. And a handsome volume it is. > > > >Well, do give us a review when you're done reading it. > > Naw. I don't read that guy, I just collect him. Anyone know when Terry > Brooks is due to release another? >I see "Two Dead Teckla on the Pillow of Shannara" is on Amazon's "Coming >Soon' list, but I'm sorry there's no official Release Date.... >R. Don't you mean "Somehow Two Dead Teckla ended up on the Pillow of Shannara"? (Sorry - that might be vague - it's a personal pet peeve of mine with Brooks - count the number of times he uses "somehow" when describing his "fantastical" scenes. From Gaertk at aol.com Thu Nov 21 11:50:23 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:50:23 -0500 Subject: Paths Message-ID: <789AE0B7.37C7F50C.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated 11/20/2002 6:31:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, David Dyer-Bennet writes: >?However, since copies have been reported in bookstores, Have they been spotted in stores? I had the impression that everyone here claiming to see it has connections to Tor. More significantly (to me), there's not even a whisper of it on rec.arts.sf.written. Contrast with _Issola_ (officially published in July) where several people announced buying copies on June 19. --KG From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Nov 21 12:02:48 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 15:02:48 EST Subject: Paths Message-ID: On 11/21/02 SeanP wrote >Don't you mean"Somehow Two Dead Teckla ended up on the Pillow of Shannara"(Sorry- that might be vague- it's a personal pet peeve of mine with Brooks- count the number of times he uses "somehow" when describing his"fantastical" scenes.) Maybe he meant "Somehow Two Dead Teckla ended up on the Pillow of Shannara along side a decapitated horse's head" John D. Barbato,O.D. "I miss everything I'll never be.", Billy Corgin, smashing punkins From dragaera at juima.org Thu Nov 21 12:09:08 2002 From: dragaera at juima.org (Sander) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 21:09:08 +0100 Subject: Paths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3DDD3D64.3050506@juima.org> Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > Maybe he meant "Somehow Two Dead Teckla ended up on the Pillow of Shannara > along side a decapitated horse's head" The sad thing with long since having stopped bothering to read Brooks is that you get the feeling you're missing all the really good jokes at his expense... :/ :) Sander From sraun at fireopal.org Thu Nov 21 13:03:10 2002 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 15:03:10 -0600 Subject: Paths In-Reply-To: <789AE0B7.37C7F50C.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <789AE0B7.37C7F50C.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20021121210310.GA25661@fireopal.org> On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 02:50:23PM -0500, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/20/2002 6:31:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, David Dyer-Bennet writes: > > >?However, since copies have been reported in bookstores, > > Have they been spotted in stores? I had the impression that > everyone here claiming to see it has connections to Tor. > More significantly (to me), there's not even a whisper of it > on rec.arts.sf.written. Contrast with _Issola_ (officially > published in July) where several people announced buying > copies on June 19. My understanding is that, since then, ALL the publishing companies have change d their shipping so that they are now shipping books to arrive much closer to their official release date. No longer are the December books being shipped to arrive in stores in early November. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org From Spamme13 at aol.com Thu Nov 21 14:21:38 2002 From: Spamme13 at aol.com (Spamme13 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:21:38 EST Subject: Paths Message-ID: <43.14b93919.2b0eb672@aol.com> In a message dated 11/21/02 2:35:32 PM, dragaera at juima.org writes: <> There is nothing whatsoever sad about stopping bothering to read Brooks. --Adam S. p.s. Steve, regarding your 100% approval rating on your latest-- You and your stupid books suck. Send money. ;) From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Nov 21 14:32:22 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:32:22 -0500 Subject: Paths In-Reply-To: <43.14b93919.2b0eb672@aol.com> Message-ID: <1A7B612E-FDA1-11D6-A048-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Thursday, November 21, 2002, at 05:21 PM, Spamme13 at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 11/21/02 2:35:32 PM, dragaera at juima.org writes: > > < Brooks is > that you get the feeling you're missing all the really good jokes at > his > expense... :/>> > > There is nothing whatsoever sad about stopping bothering to read > Brooks. > I read the first three Shannara books, plus some Magic Kingdom books before giving up on him. Elfstones was pretty good but Terry Brooks writes for a certain audience---I guess we're not it. --- "We cannot accomplish great things - just little ones, with great love." -Mother Teresa From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Nov 21 15:44:07 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:44:07 EST Subject: Paths Message-ID: <67.2b3758d.2b0ec9c7@aol.com> Zizban writes: Elfstones was good, but I guess he writes to a certain auduence, we're not it. Your right. We're not. I enjoyed Brooks when I was an early teen. His stories are good as a primer for fantasy or if you have never read fantasy. Hey, he continues to sell. If only I could be that 'bad' a writer. ; ) John D. Barbato,O.D. "I miss everything I'll never be.", Billy Corgin, smashing punkins From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Nov 21 15:47:37 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:47:37 -0500 Subject: Paths In-Reply-To: <67.2b3758d.2b0ec9c7@aol.com> Message-ID: <9D0D33D8-FDAB-11D6-8F39-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Thursday, November 21, 2002, at 06:44 PM, Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > Zizban writes: Elfstones was good, but I guess he writes to a certain > auduence, we're not it. > > Your right. We're not. I enjoyed Brooks when I was an early teen. His > stories > are good as a primer for fantasy or if you have never read fantasy. > Hey, he > continues to sell. If only I could be that 'bad' a writer. ; ) > Yes, thats when I read them too...when I was 14. I don't think Terry Brooks is a 'bad' writer per se, as his style is catered to a specific audience. ----- Buy my book! http://homepage.mac.com/zizban From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Fri Nov 22 05:38:02 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 07:38:02 -0600 Subject: Fantasy References: <9D0D33D8-FDAB-11D6-8F39-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <3DDE333A.7010400@attbi.com> The Brooks thread reminds me: have you all read Diana Wynne Jones' Rough Guide to Fantasy? It's a glossary of everything Terry Brooks would ever need to construct Yet Another Shananana Novel. The amazing thing is, she then took her own glossary and used it to write The Dark Lord of Derkholm, which is rousing good fun. Mia From feaelin at kemenel.org Fri Nov 22 06:18:08 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 08:18:08 -0600 Subject: Paths Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Turkel [mailto:zizban at adelphia.net] > Sent: Thursday, 2002 November 21 17:48 > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Paths > On Thursday, November 21, 2002, at 06:44 PM, Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > > > Zizban writes: Elfstones was good, but I guess he writes to > a certain > > auduence, we're not it. > > > > Your right. We're not. I enjoyed Brooks when I was an early > teen. His > > stories > > are good as a primer for fantasy or if you have never read fantasy. > > Hey, he > > continues to sell. If only I could be that 'bad' a writer. ; ) > > > > Yes, thats when I read them too...when I was 14. I don't think Terry > Brooks is a 'bad' writer per se, as his style is catered to a > specific > audience. Actually, I hated Shannara when I was 14, and my opinion went down-hill >from there. Clearly, I'm entirely the wrong audience. :). Just one of those things I don't understand why it is popular. :) From seanp at ea.com Fri Nov 22 11:51:06 2002 From: seanp at ea.com (Penney, Sean) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:51:06 -0800 Subject: Fantasy Message-ID: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F5950A@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Mia Said: >The Brooks thread reminds me: have you all read Diana Wynne Jones' >Rough Guide to Fantasy? It's a glossary of everything Terry Brooks >would ever need to construct Yet Another Shananana Novel. >The amazing thing is, she then took her own glossary and used it to >write The Dark Lord of Derkholm, which is rousing good fun. >Mia I thought "rousing" was only used by Zelazny when reviewing books he hadn't actually read... From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Nov 22 12:41:31 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:41:31 -0500 Subject: Fantasy Message-ID: <710BFB9D.5E230CFA.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated 11/22/2002 8:38:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, Mia McDavid writes: > The Brooks thread reminds me: ?have you all read Diana > Wynne Jones' Rough Guide to Fantasy? ?It's a glossary of > everything Terry Brooks would ever need to construct Yet > Another Shananana Novel. Great book, but it might be easy to find using the title _The Tough Guide to Fantasyland_. And while Brooks is likely one of the reasons she wrote it, I think it was aimed at other authors like David Eddings. At least, there were many entries I didn't recognise, and Eddings is the only major fantasy author I'm not familiar with. _Dark Lord_ wasn't bad, but it didn't make me rush out and read more of her stuff. --KG From mneme at io.com Fri Nov 22 13:07:50 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:07:50 -0600 Subject: Fantasy In-Reply-To: <710BFB9D.5E230CFA.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <710BFB9D.5E230CFA.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <15838.40102.295508.566432@fnord.io.com> Gaertk at aol.com writes: >_Dark Lord_ wasn't bad, but it didn't make me rush out and >read more of her stuff. It's pretty atypical; she doesn't -usually- write that kind of parody, but then, Diana Wynne Jones does not write like Diana Wynne Jones (which is something she shares with Steven Brust, who does not write like Steven Brust). Read _Archer's Goon_. Or the Dalemark books. Or Charmed Life, (one of her Chrestomanci books, one of the best of them), or _Fire and Hemlock_, a marvelous riff off the True Thomas theme. -Then- rush out and buy more of her stuff. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Nov 22 13:06:19 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:06:19 -0500 Subject: Fantasy In-Reply-To: <15838.40102.295508.566432@fnord.io.com> Message-ID: <3EFDA80D-FE5E-11D6-A3FF-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Friday, November 22, 2002, at 04:07 PM, Joshua Kronengold wrote: > Gaertk at aol.com writes: >> _Dark Lord_ wasn't bad, but it didn't make me rush out and >> read more of her stuff. > > It's pretty atypical; she doesn't -usually- write that kind of parody, > but then, Diana Wynne Jones does not write like Diana Wynne Jones > (which is something she shares with Steven Brust, who does not write > like Steven Brust). > > Read _Archer's Goon_. Or the Dalemark books. Or Charmed Life, (one > of her Chrestomanci books, one of the best of them), or > _Fire and Hemlock_, a marvelous riff off the True Thomas theme. > > -Then- rush out and buy more of her stuff. > > > -- > Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ > _,,,--,,_ ,) > --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, > ;-;;' > /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ > ) /\ > /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' > (_/-' > > I remember reading Eddings in high school. The five books of the Belgariad were pretty good and fairly original. Too bad he has used the same formula over and over ever since. ---- "I've always wanted to be somebody, but I see now I should have been more specific."---Lily Tomlin From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Fri Nov 22 14:03:26 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:03:26 -0600 Subject: Fantasy References: <3EFDA80D-FE5E-11D6-A3FF-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <3DDEA9AE.9000204@attbi.com> Diana Wynne Jones . . . Actually, the one I read that I liked first and best was Deep Secrets. Mia From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Sat Nov 23 16:16:43 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 18:16:43 -0600 Subject: (Orca related) Overcast queries Message-ID: I've noticed a reference that I'm not sure which definition to take the passage is from Orca PG 10. Paragraph 2 Darkness came as it always does, with shadows becoming dusk---shadows that were a bit sharper here than in Adrilankha, I suppose because the westerly winds thin out the overcast, so the Furnace is more apparent. Everything is brighter in the west of the Empire, as it is in the far east; all of which makes the darkness seem even darker. Now my first inclination is to take the reference to the 'Furnace' as it's their equivalent to the 'Sun' or our 'Sol' I think that it only became apparent to me because the word was capitalized as a proper name would be (go fig.). But... It could also be a proper name for the effect of sorcerous pollution or something to have to do with the use of sorcery. The word furnace can easily be defined as to exhale or exhaust (pollution in this case) which might be the exact effect that is caused >from using sorcery. I only battle my first inclination because of the capitalization -- where Jhereg and jhereg are two distinct and completely different things 'page to eye' the only difference is the capitalization. That makes me ponder, at any rate those are my two theories about it. Is there any other evidence pointing towards either of these possibilities? From mam at theworld.com Sat Nov 23 16:20:15 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:20:15 -0500 Subject: a filk: A Small Snarky Voice Message-ID: I have a small red-and-white "Beanie Baby"-type dragon who accompanies me to fannish events. His name is Loiosh, and ... well, I posted this just the other day to rec.music.filk ======== Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:24:43 GMT Just written last night and this morning, and up at http://world.std.com/~mam/filks/SmallSnarkyVoice.html . Those who have met me at cons or filksings have seen my familiar, Loiosh. This is not the first time he's been in my songs; see verse 3 of Con From Argo, http://world.std.com/~mam/filks/ConArgo.html . A Small Snarky Voice Mark A. Mandel, Copyright 2002 ttto Home on the Range Dedicated to Loiosh (Backtick [`] precedes the first strong beat of a line where it could be confusing.) ------------------- One night in my home While perusing a tome I heard my familiar's voice say: "Better get to your bed And `lay down your head For the morning is not far away." CHORUS (after every verse): Late, late in the night, In the quiet and peace of my home How strange to have heard An admonishing word From a creature of fabric and foam. I ignored that small voice, Barely making a choice And addicted to narrative prose. Many hours had gone By the time that the dawn Saw my eyelids unwillingly close. As I staggered to work Well, I `felt like a jerk, For my toy was far wiser than I. "How'd you `do that?" I asked. He replied, "It's my task Not to let your organic brain fry." He will often advise When my plans are unwise, My attention distracted or wrong. But he's uttered no word In the hour-and-a-third During which I have written this song. ============== Kay Shapero commented: : Sounds a lot like the original, actually... :-> And I replied: #Oh, yes. When I ask him if they're related he just chuckles. Recently #when I introduced him -- I think it was at Drexel U's 2nd annual #Tolkienfest, a week or 2 ago -- someone asked, "As in 'Shut up, #Loiosh!'?" I said, "Exactly!" -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname http://world.std.com/~mam/filk.html From mam at theworld.com Sat Nov 23 16:26:50 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:26:50 -0500 Subject: (Orca related) Overcast queries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Nov 2002, Gametech wrote: #Adrilankha, I suppose because the westerly winds thin out #the overcast, so the Furnace is more apparent. Everything is #brighter in the west of the Empire, as it is in the far east; all #of which makes the darkness seem even darker. # #Now my first inclination is to take the reference to the 'Furnace' as #it's their equivalent to the 'Sun' or our 'Sol' I think that it only #became apparent to me because the word was capitalized as a proper #name would be (go fig.). But... It could also be a proper name for the #effect of sorcerous pollution or something to have to do with the use #of sorcery. The word furnace can easily be defined as to exhale or #exhaust (pollution in this case) which might be the exact effect that #is caused from using sorcery. I only battle my first inclination #because of the capitalization -- where Jhereg and jhereg are two #distinct and completely different things 'page to eye' the only #difference is the capitalization. That makes me ponder, at any rate #those are my two theories about it. Is there any other evidence #pointing towards either of these possibilities? In either _Jhereg_ or TPG, I believe, we read something about being able to feel the direction of the Furnace, through the overcast, by the warmth on one's face. Ah ha! I checked my files, and here's a quote from Steve in a letter >from "Rage" on June 20, 1998: >>> * Do Dragaerans call the sun "the Furnace" because it can hurt them, like some versions of the Good Folk in old tales? = Steve sez, "No, the sun does no harm to Dragaerans, but they just don't see it because of the overcast." (RAGE sez, if what you, Mark, say about the Serioli's furnaces being proverbial is true, well, that explains it, right?" <<< Since Steve doesn't correct Rage's assumption, I believe we can take it as confirmed. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From electrictwilight at hotmail.com Sat Nov 23 17:05:42 2002 From: electrictwilight at hotmail.com (H. T.) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 01:05:42 +0000 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth Message-ID: Since it appears the majority of everyone that had typed in the discussion of "fantasy" had began reading fantasy when they were still young I thought I might ask what is appropriate for a young fantasy reader? I have an 11-year old step-brother who very much enjoys fantasy, and he has asked me what else there is in this genera to read. I, however, do not know exactly what to tell him. To tie this post a little bit into this discussion board, I will say that I hesitate to tell him to read Steven's novels, because (no offence to the author), but, my experience in reading his works is that they are written to a more mature audience (which is great because we do need something to read that is not tiresome because it is geared at children). Though I think Steven is at least the most interesting if not the best fantasy writer out there today, and I would love to give my step-brother a copy of TPG or Jhereg because then we could have many not-so-great discussions regarding Steven?s works, I also hesitate at doing this because my father or his mother would murder me if I were to give him something to read above his maturity level (they have been asking me for the last nine-years when I am going to get out of this ?dark phase?, so I can only imagine what they would do if I were to help my step-brother into one). Because I did not start reading fantasy until I was already an adult, I have mostly been geared to authors that write for an older audience, so with very few exceptions, I do not know what is out there that is appropriate for him. (I also might add that I have not the faintest idea of what the maturity level of an 11-year old is these days, so again, I have no ideas). Do any of you that started reading all of this when you were his age, have any thoughts? P.S. For those of you that cringe at poor syntax and diction please forgive me, I only had a few seconds to write these thoughts down. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From matthew at infodancer.org Sat Nov 23 17:20:54 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:20:54 -0600 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20021124012054.GR1205@infodancer.org> On Sun, Nov 24, 2002 at 01:05:42AM +0000, "H. T." wrote: > Since it appears the majority of everyone that had typed in the discussion > of "fantasy" had began reading fantasy when they were still young I thought > I might ask what is appropriate for a young fantasy reader? Anything he is capable of understanding and appreciating. I believe a children's book is marked more by the style of writing than any kind of self-censorship of topic. With that in mind, the initial Vlad Taltos books are probably perfect for that age -- and they will allow him to grow intellectually as the books become more complex. Other excellent "children's" books that are still enjoyable as adults: * Ursula K Le Guin's Earthsea trilogy (the first three books only) * The Dark is Rising sequence (I can't recall the author) * Heinlein's young-adult novels -- most are science fiction, but there are some fantasy novels. Those are the real gems. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From jimkatz at ix.netcom.com Sat Nov 23 17:55:34 2002 From: jimkatz at ix.netcom.com (Jim Katz) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:55:34 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth References: Message-ID: <3DE03196.D90F5CCE@ix.netcom.com> Hi H.T. Well I cut my teeth on Edgar Rice Burroughs. The Martian series were just great as a kid. For kids of all ages there is "The Wind in the Willows" as well, can't remember the author right off hand. My 2 cents. Jim "H. T." wrote: > > Since it appears the majority of everyone that had typed in the discussion > of "fantasy" had began reading fantasy when they were still young I thought > I might ask what is appropriate for a young fantasy reader? > > I have an 11-year old step-brother who very much enjoys fantasy, and he has > asked me what else there is in this genera to read. I, however, do not know > exactly what to tell him. To tie this post a little bit into this discussion > board, I will say that I hesitate to tell him to read Steven's novels, > because (no offence to the author), but, my experience in reading his works > is that they are written to a more mature audience (which is great because > we do need something to read that is not tiresome because it is geared at > children). Though I think Steven is at least the most interesting if not the > best fantasy writer out there today, and I would love to give my > step-brother a copy of TPG or Jhereg because then we could have many > not-so-great discussions regarding Steven?s works, I also hesitate at doing > this because my father or his mother would murder me if I were to give him > something to read above his maturity level (they have been asking me for the > last nine-years when I am going to get out of this ?dark phase?, so I can > only imagine what they would do if I were to help my step-brother into one). > Because I did not start reading fantasy until I was already an adult, I have > mostly been geared to authors that write for an older audience, so with very > few exceptions, I do not know what is out there that is appropriate for him. > (I also might add that I have not the faintest idea of what the maturity > level of an 11-year old is these days, so again, I have no ideas). Do any of > you that started reading all of this when you were his age, have any > thoughts? > > P.S. For those of you that cringe at poor syntax and diction please forgive > me, I only had a few seconds to write these thoughts down. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 -- ! Jim Katz From jimkatz at ix.netcom.com Sat Nov 23 18:27:29 2002 From: jimkatz at ix.netcom.com (Jim Katz) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 21:27:29 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth References: Message-ID: <3DE03911.39FDA5B9@ix.netcom.com> Hi H.T. I forgot to mention "The Chronicles of Narnia" by CS Lewis. also an excellent series for kids of all ages. Jim "H. T." wrote: > > Since it appears the majority of everyone that had typed in the discussion > of "fantasy" had began reading fantasy when they were still young I thought > I might ask what is appropriate for a young fantasy reader? > > -- ! Jim Katz From davids at kithrup.com Sat Nov 23 19:00:36 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:00:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Nov 2002, H. T. wrote: >Since it appears the majority of everyone that had typed in the >discussion of "fantasy" had began reading fantasy when they were >still young I thought I might ask what is appropriate for a young >fantasy reader? I think most of the books on this page: http://www.starscapebooks.com/ would be appropriate. I have only read about 8 of them, but they were all ranging from "very good" to "stellar" in quality. The taste of whoever is choosing these books [1] seems to be spot-on for stories that have an all-ages appeal. By the way, Starscape books is an imprint of Tor Publishing, who also bring us the books by that Hungarian guy who occasionaly posts here. [2] [1] All of the ones that I read were actually published elsewhere; the current editions are reprints. [2] Some of the authors are friends of this guy, too. There's an in-joke in one of the books ["Magician's Ward"], where some books in a library were pulled out by a would-be thief. One of them was "Apres Cinq Cent Ans". From randomhonky at hotmail.com Sat Nov 23 19:30:00 2002 From: randomhonky at hotmail.com (T J) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:30:00 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth Message-ID: My first fantasy book was the Dragon Lance series as a very young child. Of course the later books have gotten poorly written, and the storyline of the books was destroyed through the later books i think they are a great beginning fantasy. Atleast as far as the first thre go. The dragonlance chronicales (the first three in the nfinity long series,) are worth a read. Though i suggest being wary, i liked them as a yongster and even to this day i buy every book in the main story line just to see what else new is happening, and i dont ven like the books anymore. Thomas J >From: "H. T." >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth >Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 01:05:42 +0000 > >Since it appears the majority of everyone that had typed in the discussion >of "fantasy" had began reading fantasy when they were still young I thought >I might ask what is appropriate for a young fantasy reader? > >I have an 11-year old step-brother who very much enjoys fantasy, and he has >asked me what else there is in this genera to read. I, however, do not know >exactly what to tell him. To tie this post a little bit into this >discussion board, I will say that I hesitate to tell him to read Steven's >novels, because (no offence to the author), but, my experience in reading >his works is that they are written to a more mature audience (which is >great because we do need something to read that is not tiresome because it >is geared at children). Though I think Steven is at least the most >interesting if not the best fantasy writer out there today, and I would >love to give my step-brother a copy of TPG or Jhereg because then we could >have many not-so-great discussions regarding Steven?s works, I also >hesitate at doing this because my father or his mother would murder me if I >were to give him something to read above his maturity level (they have been >asking me for the last nine-years when I am going to get out of this ?dark >phase?, so I can only imagine what they would do if I were to help my >step-brother into one). Because I did not start reading fantasy until I was >already an adult, I have mostly been geared to authors that write for an >older audience, so with very few exceptions, I do not know what is out >there that is appropriate for him. (I also might add that I have not the >faintest idea of what the maturity level of an 11-year old is these days, >so again, I have no ideas). Do any of you that started reading all of this >when you were his age, have any thoughts? > >P.S. For those of you that cringe at poor syntax and diction please forgive >me, I only had a few seconds to write these thoughts down. > >_________________________________________________________________ >Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online >http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From zizban at adelphia.net Sat Nov 23 19:41:08 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:41:08 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <919B6192-FF5E-11D6-A555-00039386187A@adelphia.net> My first book was The Horse and His Boy, a Narnia book. The first three Dragonlance books were stellar...the rest were average fare. Believe it or not I would say Sword of Shannara is a fine book to start out with. --- "It's a bad critic who tries to use fiction to psychoanalyze the author."---Orson Scott Card From jazzfish at softhome.net Sat Nov 23 20:11:33 2002 From: jazzfish at softhome.net (Tucker) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 23:11:33 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <20021124012054.GR1205@infodancer.org> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20021123230611.0289ef50@pop.softhome.net> Short-term lurker, first post: hi, all. > > Since it appears the majority of everyone that had typed in the discussion > > of "fantasy" had began reading fantasy when they were still young I > thought > > I might ask what is appropriate for a young fantasy reader? >* Ursula K Le Guin's Earthsea trilogy (the first three books only) I dunno... they're a little dry and slow-moving. Good, but maybe not great as an introduction to fantasy. >* The Dark is Rising sequence (I can't recall the author) Susan Cooper. Highly recommended. Also, Lloyd Alexander's Prydain Chronicles are good stuff. (As is just about everything by Alexander.) The Phantom Tollbooth, by Norton Juster. Robert Asprin's Myth Adventures would probably go well. ---- The time for action is past-- now is the time for senseless bickering! --Ashleigh Brilliant From rick at 404.978.org Sat Nov 23 20:24:19 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 23:24:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: A question re: Begining Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20021123230611.0289ef50@pop.softhome.net> References: <5.1.0.14.1.20021123230611.0289ef50@pop.softhome.net> Message-ID: <2512.192.168.1.1.1038111859.squirrel@404.978.org> Tucker said: > Short-term lurker, first post: hi, all. > >> > Since it appears the majority of everyone that had typed in the >> discussion of "fantasy" had began reading fantasy when they were >> still young I >> thought >> > I might ask what is appropriate for a young fantasy reader? I found Joel Rosenberg's _Guardian of the Flame_ series to be a very good and accessible start for young readers (I read them myself in 4th grade or so). They fall into my list of comfort books as well, though (predictably) the last book or two isn't quite as good as the first 3-4, they're worth a reread every few years... I am continually thankful and amazed at SKZB's ability to keep writing new stuff in this world and setting, without it getting old or going flat. Aces, Steve! :) -Rick From singram at videotron.ca Sat Nov 23 20:33:59 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 23:33:59 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth References: Message-ID: <002401c29372$b5769ec0$17ecca18@ingram> Not to be over anal or anything, but I think a better translation would be, "Cinq Cent Plus Tard". But still, gotta love the in jokes. > [2] Some of the authors are friends of this guy, too. There's an > in-joke in one of the books ["Magician's Ward"], where some books in a > library were pulled out by a would-be thief. One of them was "Apres > Cinq Cent Ans". > I almost hate to recommend these books, seeing as how every bookstore and movie theatre in North America is promoting them, but the Harry Potter series really isn't all that bad. I enjoyed them quite a bit, actually. The Belgariad by the much maligned Eddings is pretty good. The first and best of his 'hunt for the blue stone and meet people' series of series. If you're going to introduce the lad to C.S. Lewis, then by all means let him read about Vlad as well, just to balance out Lewis' subversive content :). I enjoyed some Kipling, when I was his age (and yes, I still kipple). And you know what I really liked, when I was his age, my subscription to Analog magazine. Great birthday presents! -Scott From singram at videotron.ca Sat Nov 23 20:41:48 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 23:41:48 -0500 Subject: Roger Zelazny's the Dawn of Amber References: <5.1.0.14.1.20021123230611.0289ef50@pop.softhome.net> <2512.192.168.1.1.1038111859.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: <003901c29373$cce929f0$17ecca18@ingram> There's a new book out in the Amber series, "Roger Zelazny's the Dawn of Amber" by John Gregory Betancourt. Has anyone read this and have any opinions on it? I've been pondering whether or not I should pick it up. Thanks! -Scott From jjm57 at cornell.edu Sat Nov 23 21:25:50 2002 From: jjm57 at cornell.edu (Jeremy Michel) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 00:25:50 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021124001913.02643ee0@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> 11 yr old don't really have that much of an attention span I let my ten year old campers read vlad (not techla or phoenix, just jhereg and the prequils) But in truth though it's sci-fi Enders Game is really the best suggestion i can make. I've read it 6 times in three years. If he liked Willow (the movie not the buffy read-head) and reads x-men THe Elora Danan series might be a good idea but the second one was a bit confusing (Written by George Lucas and Chris Clairmont, of x-men). I opposition to dragon lance, Forgotten Realms might be better (drizzt series) - they are shorter and seem to be getting better as the series progresses. and just a question, isn't it Fantasy? Popcorn? -ME From nytemuse at auros.org Sat Nov 23 22:13:57 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:13:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <002401c29372$b5769ec0$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Nov 2002, Scott Ingram wrote: > If you're going to introduce the lad to C.S. Lewis, then by all means let > him read about Vlad as well, just to balance out Lewis' subversive content > :). *snerk* Good point. I just had to add my 2 cents. Actually, the first fantasy books I remember reading was _The Vampire Diaries_ by LJ Smith, although that's marketed more towards young adults...what can I say, I'm advanced *g* There was also a book called _The Ivory Lyre_, but I can't remember the author. It was mildly amusing dragon stuff, but not the best dragon books ever. My b/f wanted me to add that Phillip Pullman's _His Dark Materials_ Trilogy is good for kids (pre-teens). Also Salman Rushdie's _Haroun and the Sea of Stories_. And nothing can beat _The Neverending Story_ :) Also, for future reference, a friend of ours compiled this list on her website of good SF/Fantasy books for kids, with recommended ages listed as well, that you might want to check out. http://www.mamohanraj.com/kidsf.html ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Sat Nov 23 22:52:31 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 00:52:31 -0600 Subject: (Orca related) Overcast queries References: Message-ID: Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Sat, 23 Nov 2002, Gametech wrote: > > #Adrilankha, I suppose because the westerly winds thin out > #the overcast, so the Furnace is more apparent. Everything is > #brighter in the west of the Empire, as it is in the far east; all > #of which makes the darkness seem even darker. > # > #Now my first inclination is to take the reference to the 'Furnace' as > #it's their equivalent to the 'Sun' or our 'Sol' I think that it only > #became apparent to me because the word was capitalized as a proper > #name would be (go fig.). But... It could also be a proper name for > the #effect of sorcerous pollution or something to have to do with > the use #of sorcery. The word furnace can easily be defined as to > exhale or #exhaust (pollution in this case) which might be the exact > effect that #is caused from using sorcery. I only battle my first > inclination #because of the capitalization -- where Jhereg and jhereg > are two #distinct and completely different things 'page to eye' the > only #difference is the capitalization. That makes me ponder, at any > rate #those are my two theories about it. Is there any other evidence > #pointing towards either of these possibilities? > > In either _Jhereg_ or TPG, I believe, we read something about being > able to feel the direction of the Furnace, through the overcast, by > the warmth on one's face. > > Ah ha! I checked my files, and here's a quote from Steve in a letter > from "Rage" on June 20, 1998: > >>>> > > * Do Dragaerans call the sun "the Furnace" because it can hurt them, > like some versions of the Good Folk in old tales? = Steve sez, "No, > the sun does no harm to Dragaerans, but they just don't see it > because of the overcast." (RAGE sez, if what you, Mark, say about > the Serioli's furnaces being proverbial is true, well, that explains > it, right?" > > <<< > > Since Steve doesn't correct Rage's assumption, I believe we can take > it as confirmed. > > -- Mark A. Mandel Yeah ok this is good. Part of me Screams well Steve might not neccesarily correct someones assumption which of course is another assumption. But I like the idea that the Furnace is the proper name just as much as the other. Re-reading the context again and again doesn't help even though I think it does, the quote really does kinda nail it down. Thanks From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Sat Nov 23 23:26:23 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 01:26:23 -0600 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth References: <002401c29372$b5769ec0$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: Scott Ingram wrote: > Not to be over anal or anything, but I think a better translation > would be, "Cinq Cent Plus Tard". But still, gotta love the in jokes. > >> [2] Some of the authors are friends of this guy, too. There's an >> in-joke in one of the books ["Magician's Ward"], where some books in >> a library were pulled out by a would-be thief. One of them was >> "Apres Cinq Cent Ans". >> > > I almost hate to recommend these books, seeing as how every bookstore > and movie theatre in North America is promoting them, but the Harry > Potter series really isn't all that bad. I enjoyed them quite a bit, > actually. > No need to be ashamed J.K. Rowling sold her Soul to the devil so that her books were al least aggreable to anyone who ever read them, which is kinda smart becuase all you have to do is find a movie producer.... well then there is the whole not having your soul thing, but hey people keep doing it and keep entertaining me so I'm not gonna stop them. (as if I could) I don't see why but almost everyone I know has the "Harry Potter series really isn't all that bad." attitude and is usually translates into I love the series I can't get enough of it gimmie gimmie gimmie but are too ashamed to just say, I think somehow that's the case in relation to lots of fantasy, at least trying to convince virgin-fantasy readers to give some a try. I know as a kid I would have gotten something different from Steve's books just as I would have gotten something different from J.K. Rowlings, take that as you will. From ijamie at sympatico.ca Sun Nov 24 06:22:20 2002 From: ijamie at sympatico.ca (Ian Jamieson) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 09:22:20 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth References: Message-ID: <004f01c293c4$e682cc80$9d825f41@srnmnigo> > I have an 11-year old step-brother who very much enjoys fantasy, and he has > asked me what else there is in this genera to read. I have a few ideas: The Harper Hall books of Anne McCaffrey, 'Dragonsinger', 'Dragonsong' and 'Dragondrums' are excellent books for an 11 year old. I liked McCaffrey until she milked the idea too much, ala, Eddings. A second vote for 'Ender's Game' by Orson Scott Card. I can't believe that noone has mentioned 'The Hobbit' by JRR Tolkien. The Heinlien youth books as mentioned are good, especially, 'Space Cadet' and 'Starman Jones'. Stephen King's 'Dragoneye' was written originally for his daughter and is pretty good. If others pop into my head I will let you know. Ian From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Sun Nov 24 07:19:57 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 09:19:57 -0600 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth References: Message-ID: <3DE0EE1D.7080605@attbi.com> At risk of repeating what others have surely said: The Narnia books by C S Lewis Anything by Madeline L'Engle Anything by E. Nesbitt Anything by Edward Eagar (sp?) such as Half Magic or Magic by the Lake Harry Potter The Dark is Rising series by Susan Cooper Andre Norton The Hobbit. If he is very advanced, the Lord of the Rings The Heinlein juvies Asimov's original Robot and Foundation stories Diane Duane's "So You Want to be a Wizard" series Anything by Diane Wynne Jones That should do to start on . . . Mia From zizban at adelphia.net Sun Nov 24 07:21:34 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:21:34 -0500 Subject: (Orca related) Overcast queries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6AD42B9E-FFC0-11D6-B1C8-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Sunday, November 24, 2002, at 01:52 AM, Gametech wrote: > Part of me Screams well Steve might not neccesarily correct someones > assumption which of course is another assumption. But I like the idea > that > the Furnace is the proper name just as much as the other. Re-reading > the > context again and again doesn't help even though I think it does, the > quote > really does kinda nail it down. Thanks > It was my impression as well as that Furnace was what the Dragaerans called the sun. I wonder what the Easterners call it since they can see it? --- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds; and the pessimist fears this is true." -- James Branch Cabell From zizban at adelphia.net Sun Nov 24 07:23:47 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:23:47 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <3DE0EE1D.7080605@attbi.com> Message-ID: On Sunday, November 24, 2002, at 10:19 AM, Mia McDavid wrote: > > That should do to start on . . . > > Mia I like the Harry Potter books as well. My wife, a devout Roman Catholic, likes them too. If Rowling sold her soul, that's OK by me. My soul is for sale, but I haven't found any takers yet :-) ---- "Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself (I am large, I contain multitudes)"--Walt Whitman From rsuitor at cjwrfs.net Sun Nov 24 07:25:28 2002 From: rsuitor at cjwrfs.net (Richard Suitor) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:25:28 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: <002401c29372$b5769ec0$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Nov 2002 01:26:23 -0600, "Gametech" wrote: >I don't see why but almost everyone I know has the "Harry Potter series >really isn't all that bad." attitude and is usually translates into I love >the series I can't get enough of it gimmie gimmie gimmie but are too ashamed >to just say, I think somehow that's the case in relation to lots of fantasy, >at least trying to convince virgin-fantasy readers to give some a try. I think there is too much schoolboy bias to amuse some adults for long, although the inventiveness and liveliness make up for a lot. I have read some and get tired of the same-old of his exaggerated relationships with his family and the stringent rules which always get broken and the exaggerated penalties which always get abated. (And why don't I get tired of Eddings who is arguably worse? Don't know. I reserve my choice of cliche to wallow in :<) ) I think when I was in school I would have loved it. I know my ten-year-old granddaughter has been vacuuming up anything Potter-related she can get to. Richard P.S. re Analog subscription - I was given a subscription to Astounding (as it was named then) at age 14 - it opened up new areas of thought and reading, although I had read all Burroughs and Swifties I could obtain. I haven't kept up with them as well - Asimov's is good, perhaps others could weigh Asimov's vs Analog vs F&SF for an 11 yr old. I'm not sure I would have been as interested at age 11, and editorial aims have changed a lot in 50 years. PPS Someone mentioned Kipling - particularly Kim and the Jungle Books. From rsuitor at cjwrfs.net Sun Nov 24 07:33:38 2002 From: rsuitor at cjwrfs.net (Richard Suitor) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:33:38 -0500 Subject: Roger Zelazny's the Dawn of Amber In-Reply-To: <003901c29373$cce929f0$17ecca18@ingram> References: <5.1.0.14.1.20021123230611.0289ef50@pop.softhome.net> <2512.192.168.1.1.1038111859.squirrel@404.978.org> <003901c29373$cce929f0$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Nov 2002 23:41:48 -0500, Scott Ingram wrote: >There's a new book out in the Amber series, "Roger Zelazny's the Dawn of >Amber" by John Gregory Betancourt. > >Has anyone read this and have any opinions on it? >I've been pondering whether or not I should pick it up. I have not read it yet. There has been discussion on alt.books.roger-zelazny avaliable on Google. http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=alt.books.roger-zelazny From agrajag at dragaera.net Sun Nov 24 08:24:03 2002 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 24 Nov 2002 11:24:03 -0500 Subject: (Orca related) Overcast queries In-Reply-To: <6AD42B9E-FFC0-11D6-B1C8-00039386187A@adelphia.net> References: <6AD42B9E-FFC0-11D6-B1C8-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <1038155043.1154.3.camel@loiosh> On Sun, 2002-11-24 at 10:21, Chris Turkel wrote: > On Sunday, November 24, 2002, at 01:52 AM, Gametech wrote: > > > Part of me Screams well Steve might not neccesarily correct someones > > assumption which of course is another assumption. But I like the idea > > that > > the Furnace is the proper name just as much as the other. Re-reading > > the > > context again and again doesn't help even though I think it does, the > > quote > > really does kinda nail it down. Thanks > > > It was my impression as well as that Furnace was what the Dragaerans > called the sun. I wonder what the Easterners call it since they can see > it? I'm tempted to say they still call it the Furnace, since they overcast isn't required to think of a star as a giant furnace. However, I also know the Easterners don't speak Dragaeran (and the Dragaerans don't speak English), so I'm sure whatever word the Easterners use, gets translated to the word in Dragaeran that gets translated to 'Furnace' in english :) From curtis.humes at verizon.net Sun Nov 24 08:40:46 2002 From: curtis.humes at verizon.net (Gnosis) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 08:40:46 -0800 Subject: Roger Zelazny's the Dawn of Amber References: <5.1.0.14.1.20021123230611.0289ef50@pop.softhome.net> <2512.192.168.1.1.1038111859.squirrel@404.978.org> <003901c29373$cce929f0$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: <004801c293d8$56bde620$2462fa43@res17vcq> While I have not personally read it, I have heard only negative remarks about the book. It appears that Roger Zelazny's estranged wife authorized the commission of the book, even though Zelazny himself requested that nothing further be written about his Amber world. If I were to pick up the book, I would wait to find a used copy, I think they may become plentiful, imho. Curtis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Ingram" To: Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 8:41 PM Subject: Roger Zelazny's the Dawn of Amber > There's a new book out in the Amber series, "Roger Zelazny's the Dawn of > Amber" by John Gregory Betancourt. > > Has anyone read this and have any opinions on it? > I've been pondering whether or not I should pick it up. > > Thanks! > > -Scott > > From curtis.humes at verizon.net Sun Nov 24 08:50:28 2002 From: curtis.humes at verizon.net (Gnosis) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 08:50:28 -0800 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth References: Message-ID: <005001c293d9$99156e20$2462fa43@res17vcq> My first thought was "The Hobbit" by J.R.R. Tolkien. It was published in 1937 as a children's book. And with the popularity of the movies, it should appease and "dark phase" thoughts your parents have. If this seems a little too much for your brother, you could also give him any of the books based on Dungeons & Dragons worlds (Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, etc). Since I am not sure how your parents feel about RPGs, I will leave this to your discretion. I often see Sci-fi/fantasy grouped together at book stores. If your brother is interested in the sci-fi side of things, Douglas Hill wrote some books years ago (I think they may be out of print, but I have seen a few around). The series is called the "Last Legionary." The titles for the four books are: Galactic Warlord Deathwing Over Veynaa Day of the Starwind Planet of the Warlord I read these books in 6th grade, and they introduced me to sci-fi/fantasy. I have been hooked ever since. Hope this helps. Curtis ----- Original Message ----- From: "H. T." To: Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 5:05 PM Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth > Since it appears the majority of everyone that had typed in the discussion > of "fantasy" had began reading fantasy when they were still young I thought > I might ask what is appropriate for a young fantasy reader? > > I have an 11-year old step-brother who very much enjoys fantasy, and he has > asked me what else there is in this genera to read. I, however, do not know > exactly what to tell him. To tie this post a little bit into this discussion > board, I will say that I hesitate to tell him to read Steven's novels, > because (no offence to the author), but, my experience in reading his works > is that they are written to a more mature audience (which is great because > we do need something to read that is not tiresome because it is geared at > children). Though I think Steven is at least the most interesting if not the > best fantasy writer out there today, and I would love to give my > step-brother a copy of TPG or Jhereg because then we could have many > not-so-great discussions regarding Steven's works, I also hesitate at doing > this because my father or his mother would murder me if I were to give him > something to read above his maturity level (they have been asking me for the > last nine-years when I am going to get out of this "dark phase", so I can > only imagine what they would do if I were to help my step-brother into one). > Because I did not start reading fantasy until I was already an adult, I have > mostly been geared to authors that write for an older audience, so with very > few exceptions, I do not know what is out there that is appropriate for him. > (I also might add that I have not the faintest idea of what the maturity > level of an 11-year old is these days, so again, I have no ideas). Do any of > you that started reading all of this when you were his age, have any > thoughts? > > P.S. For those of you that cringe at poor syntax and diction please forgive > me, I only had a few seconds to write these thoughts down. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > From matthew at infodancer.org Sun Nov 24 09:25:33 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 11:25:33 -0600 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20021123230611.0289ef50@pop.softhome.net> References: <5.1.0.14.1.20021123230611.0289ef50@pop.softhome.net> Message-ID: <20021124172533.GA26487@infodancer.org> On Sat, Nov 23, 2002 at 11:11:33PM -0500, Tucker wrote: > Short-term lurker, first post: hi, all. > >> Since it appears the majority of everyone that had typed in the > >discussion > >> of "fantasy" had began reading fantasy when they were still young I > >thought > >> I might ask what is appropriate for a young fantasy reader? > >* Ursula K Le Guin's Earthsea trilogy (the first three books only) > I dunno... they're a little dry and slow-moving. Good, but maybe not great > as an introduction to fantasy. Umm... mileage definitely does vary. *boggle* > >* The Dark is Rising sequence (I can't recall the author) > Susan Cooper. Highly recommended. > > Also, Lloyd Alexander's Prydain Chronicles are good stuff. (As is just > about everything by Alexander.) Check. > The Phantom Tollbooth, by Norton Juster. Check. > Robert Asprin's Myth Adventures would probably go well. Never read those. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From mam at theworld.com Sun Nov 24 09:45:50 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:45:50 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20021123230611.0289ef50@pop.softhome.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Nov 2002, Tucker wrote: #Short-term lurker, first post: hi, all. Hiya! [unattributed] #>* Ursula K Le Guin's Earthsea trilogy (the first three books only) # #I dunno... they're a little dry and slow-moving. Good, but maybe not great #as an introduction to fantasy. I found them "living", enthralling, and unputdownable, and have gone back to them year after year after year. I guess it's very much a matter of YMMV (your mileage may vary ~ de gustibus non est disputandum). #>* The Dark is Rising sequence (I can't recall the author) # #Susan Cooper. Highly recommended. Agreed! #Also, Lloyd Alexander's Prydain Chronicles are good stuff. (As is just #about everything by Alexander.) # #The Phantom Tollbooth, by Norton Juster. # #Robert Asprin's Myth Adventures would probably go well. Yes, yes, yes. Add most of Diana Wynne Jones. -- Mark A. Mandel From spenn at shaw.ca Sun Nov 24 09:50:40 2002 From: spenn at shaw.ca (Sean) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 09:50:40 -0800 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth References: <004f01c293c4$e682cc80$9d825f41@srnmnigo> Message-ID: <001e01c293e2$00d6bc00$883e5418@dontbenosy> > > I have an 11-year old step-brother who very much enjoys fantasy, and he > has > > asked me what else there is in this genera to read. > > I have a few ideas: > The Harper Hall books of Anne McCaffrey, 'Dragonsinger', 'Dragonsong' > and 'Dragondrums' are excellent books for an 11 year old. I liked McCaffrey > until she milked the idea too much, ala, Eddings. Why stop there? The Dragonriders of Pern trilogy is (IMHO) excellent for an 11 year old going on 16 (they all are, aren't they?), esp the last one - The White Dragon. > The Heinlien youth books as mentioned are good, especially, 'Space > Cadet' and 'Starman Jones'. I loved these too as a young'un, but if you're worried about subversive content... oh well - add Red Planet, Starship Troopers and The Star Beast to the Heinlien list I personally do not recommend Narnia or The Neverending Story as a first exposure - they are somewhat longwinded (written for youth of a different time - esp. Narnia) and may actually turn him off Fantasy - get him into the lighter stuff first, or rent the movies first and then turn him onto the books. The Hobbit is great - you might even consider reading it to him, as it has a "grandpa in his rocking chair telling a story to a circle of children" style. From mam at theworld.com Sun Nov 24 09:47:26 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:47:26 -0500 Subject: (Orca related) Overcast queries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Nov 2002, Gametech wrote: [...] #> Since Steve doesn't correct Rage's assumption, I believe we can take #> it as confirmed. #> #> -- Mark A. Mandel # # #Yeah ok this is good. # #Part of me Screams well Steve might not neccesarily correct someones #assumption which of course is another assumption. But I like the idea that #the Furnace is the proper name just as much as the other. Re-reading the #context again and again doesn't help even though I think it does, the quote #really does kinda nail it down. Thanks My pleasure. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mam at theworld.com Sun Nov 24 09:52:05 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:52:05 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <3DE0EE1D.7080605@attbi.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Nov 2002, Mia McDavid wrote: #Anything by E. Nesbitt #Anything by Edward Eagar (sp?) such as Half Magic or Magic by the Lake Nesbit (one T), I believe, and Eager, as in the adjective. He was a great admirer of hers. So am I. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Sun Nov 24 09:52:39 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:52:39 -0500 Subject: (Orca related) Overcast queries In-Reply-To: <6AD42B9E-FFC0-11D6-B1C8-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Nov 2002, Chris Turkel wrote: #It was my impression as well as that Furnace was what the Dragaerans #called the sun. I wonder what the Easterners call it since they can see #it? Probably (in translation) "the sun". Why not? -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From akomins at midway.uchicago.edu Sun Nov 24 10:04:46 2002 From: akomins at midway.uchicago.edu (Arin Komins) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:04:46 -0600 (CST) Subject: Roger Zelazny's the Dawn of Amber In-Reply-To: <003901c29373$cce929f0$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Nov 2002, Scott Ingram wrote: :Subject: Roger Zelazny's the Dawn of Amber : :There's a new book out in the Amber series, "Roger Zelazny's the Dawn of :Amber" by John Gregory Betancourt. : :Has anyone read this and have any opinions on it? :I've been pondering whether or not I should pick it up. It reads very much like a fanzine homage to Zelazny, wherein Oberon has the Corwin role. Not bad....just you probably want to grab a used version, rather than the new HC. Arin -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Arin Komins akomins at uchicago.edu Manager of Web Systems Architecture University of Chicago/NSIT tel: (773)834-4087 1155 E. 60th St. #302B Chicago, IL 60637 fax: (773)702-0559 ------------------------------------------------------------------ From ambyrglow at softhome.net Sun Nov 24 10:32:32 2002 From: ambyrglow at softhome.net (Claire Rojstaczer) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 13:32:32 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not sure why no one has mentioned Brian Jacques's Redwall books yet, but they're definitely aimed at that age group. They haven't survived the test of time as comfort books for me, but I do recall enjoying them when I was 10 or so. Someone mentioned Patricia C. Wrede's Magician's Ward, but I don't think anyone's mentioned her Enchanted Forest Chronicles yet. Those were my absolute favorite books at that age, and I still read them all the time. Tamora Pierce's books are targetted primarily towards girls, but she does have two series, Circle of Magic and The Circle Opens, that are a bit more egalitarian. Her other books are good for that age, too, but I don't know if a boy would enjoy them. Robin McKinley's The Blue Sword and the Hero and the Crown managed to win a Newbery between the two, so I can't be the only person who thinks they're good. Honestly, though, it seems at 11 he'd be ready for just about anything the fantasy/sci-fi section of the library could throw at him. Claire From rone at ennui.org Sun Nov 24 10:43:01 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:43:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: from Claire Rojstaczer at "Nov 24, 2002 01:32:32 pm" Message-ID: <20021124184301.7C2C126E2E@boredom.ennui.org> Claire Rojstaczer writes: Someone mentioned Patricia C. Wrede's Magician's Ward, but I don't think anyone's mentioned her Enchanted Forest Chronicles yet. Those were my absolute favorite books at that age, and I still read them all the time. Let me add a vote for those as well. Also, i've not yet seen Madeleine L'Engle mentioned, "A Wrinkle In Time" and sequels. rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From righel at msn.com Sun Nov 24 11:18:18 2002 From: righel at msn.com (Rosemary Ighel) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 13:18:18 -0600 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <3DE03196.D90F5CCE@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: The 15 year old tells me that the Harry Potter series is appropriate for anyone. As far as McCaffrey goes, he thinks the Harper Hall series is age appropriate, as opposed to the Dragonrider series, since it "has all that sex, mom." His other suggestions are just about the same as what everyone's mentioned already with the addition of the Redwall series by Brian Jacques, which is not at all dark. R. From tlinkenback at cox.net Sun Nov 24 11:50:49 2002 From: tlinkenback at cox.net (Tom Linkenback) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 14:50:49 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth Message-ID: In the same category as Eddings (Belgariad) or Asprin (Myth), you might want to include the Xanth books or Apprentice Adept books (first trilogy of either; both by Piers Anthony). They're *VERY* light, but still entertaining. -- Tom Linkenback tlinkenback at cox.net From den at monger.net Sun Nov 24 13:12:44 2002 From: den at monger.net (Dennis Higbee) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 13:12:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Nov 2002, Claire Rojstaczer wrote: > Tamora Pierce's books are targetted primarily towards girls, but she > does have two series, Circle of Magic and The Circle Opens, that are > a bit more egalitarian. Her other books are good for that age, too, > but I don't know if a boy would enjoy them. Only in the sense that the main characters are girls. There are certainly strong male characters, and many of themes (the difficulty of growing up, the struggle to find one's place, dealing with cruelty and bullying) are universal. I certainly think they're worth a look. -Dennis From dd-b at dd-b.net Sun Nov 24 14:27:20 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 24 Nov 2002 16:27:20 -0600 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: <002401c29372$b5769ec0$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: "Gametech" writes: > I don't see why but almost everyone I know has the "Harry Potter series > really isn't all that bad." attitude and is usually translates into I love > the series I can't get enough of it gimmie gimmie gimmie but are too ashamed > to just say, I think somehow that's the case in relation to lots of fantasy, > at least trying to convince virgin-fantasy readers to give some a try. It's kinda fun, but it's thin. I'm not at all tempted to reread it, and even thinking about it too hard causes holes to appear. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From nytemuse at auros.org Sun Nov 24 14:43:53 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 14:43:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fantasy Message-ID: OK, so while I was doing research on what to name our new kittens *squeal*, I hit across a name that reminded me of a book I really loved as a kid. It's called "The Castle In the Attick" by Elizabeth Winthrop (sp?) about a 10-year-old ish kid whose English nanny is going back to England and he doesn't want her to. She gives him a toy castle to play with and he discovers it's all magical and stuff when he shrinks down to its size and adventures through it in his quest to find a way for Mrs. Phillips to stay with him. And apparently there's a sequel, although I can't remember for sure if I've read that one too... It's listed as appropriate for 9-12 yo ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From ambyrglow at softhome.net Sun Nov 24 14:47:58 2002 From: ambyrglow at softhome.net (Claire Rojstaczer) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:47:58 -0500 Subject: Fantasy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >OK, so while I was doing research on what to name our new kittens >*squeal*, I hit across a name that reminded me of a book I really loved as >a kid. It's called "The Castle In the Attick" by Elizabeth Winthrop >(sp?) about a 10-year-old ish kid whose English nanny is going back to >England and he doesn't want her to. She gives him a toy castle to play >with and he discovers it's all magical and stuff when he shrinks down to >its size and adventures through it in his quest to find a way for >Mrs. Phillips to stay with him. And apparently there's a sequel, although >I can't remember for sure if I've read that one too... It's listed as >appropriate for 9-12 yo > >****** >NyteMuse > >"Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. >Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." >AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) >MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse >http://www.crowfire.com Oh, yes, forgot all about those. The sequel is The Battle for the Castle, and it's pretty good, although not up the standard of the first one. Highly recommend them. Claire From Gaertk at aol.com Sun Nov 24 14:54:45 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:54:45 -0500 Subject: Fantasy Message-ID: <5B9E62F6.3B5F03DF.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated 11/24/2002 5:43:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, Nytemuse writes: > name our new kittens *squeal* Good choice. --KG From casey at trinityhartford.org Sun Nov 24 14:51:19 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:51:19 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c2940c$04830910$a902a8c0@KCRINSP8200> H.T. asked: > Since it appears the majority of everyone that had typed in > the discussion of "fantasy" had began reading fantasy when > they were still young I thought I might ask what is > appropriate for a young fantasy reader? Stephen R. Donaldson's Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever is notably missing from the discussion so far. My favorite of these is the middle volume, The Illearth War. I'd also recommend his short story collection Daughter of Regals and the two volume Mordant's Need series (The Mirror of her Dreams and A Man Rides Through) was reasonably entertaining. I think by the time these came out I was older than your brother is now. I was given the first of Raymond E. Feist's books, Magician, later released in two volumes in massmarket paper on hard cover for Christmas '82 when I was 12. I ate it up. K. Kurtz's Deryini and Camber trilogies were fare for my summer vacation earlier that same year. The rest of these have all been mentioned by others and are books that I read by 14 or so. Note that I read Jhereg when it first appeared in 1983. Read everything else Drageran as it came out. As a side note, I'm fairly certain I read the Three Musketeers, a few of the sequels (Twenty Years After and The Man in the Iron Mask) as well as the Count of Monte Christo about that time, so TPG and FHYA should be fine for him. I'm vaguely looking to get my hands on a copy of the translation that Steve recommends for these to go back and reread them after I've finished with Paths. A Wrinkle in Time and its sequels by L'Engle is great, but can't tell if they'd go over his head. I read them at 9, a bit too early. I read The Phantom Tollbooth around the same time and loved it. A Wizard of Earthsea and the next two sequels I read at about 11 and love to this day. I also enjoyed Tehanu and the more recent stuff LeGuin has done in the milieu although plenty of people will tell you to stay away from them. They follow a progression and do get darker as they go along. The basic Tolkein package is a definite winner, although I'd start him on the Hobbit and let him come back to the Lord of the Rings on his own. Lloyd Alexander, Robin McKinley and McCaffrey's Harper Hall books were all favorites of mine at 10 or 11. I read the Dragonriders trilogy at 12. CS Lewis's Narnia he can definitely handle. Prince Ombra, by Roderick MacLeish is a great book. It links up lots of hero myths, esp. King Arthur, which is itself a great category to look at. From rone at ennui.org Sun Nov 24 15:08:06 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 15:08:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <000001c2940c$04830910$a902a8c0@KCRINSP8200> from Casey Rousseau at "Nov 24, 2002 05:51:19 pm" Message-ID: <20021124230806.F254526E2E@boredom.ennui.org> Casey Rousseau writes: Stephen R. Donaldson's Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever is notably missing from the discussion so far. Some people i know (including myself) have a very strong aversion to the Unbeliever trilogy. It is definitely not what i would recommend to any 11-year-old. rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From tyan at twcny.rr.com Sun Nov 24 15:09:19 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:09:19 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: ("H. T."'s message of "Sun, 24 Nov 2002 01:05:42 +0000") References: Message-ID: "H. T." writes: > Since it appears the majority of everyone that had typed in the > discussion of "fantasy" had began reading fantasy when they were still > young I thought I might ask what is appropriate for a young fantasy > reader? > > I have an 11-year old step-brother who very much enjoys fantasy, and > he has asked me what else there is in this genera to read. -snip- Pamela Dean's Secret Country trilogy; it is currently out of print, but will be reprinted in late 2003 by Firebird Books. Patrice Kindl's books, especially _Owl in Love_ and maybe _The Woman in the Wall_. (I don't like _Goose Chase_ or _Lost in the Labyrinth" nearly as much.) Patricia McKillip's Riddlemaster trilogy/book, _The Forgotten Beasts of Eld_, and some of her other books. Zenna Henderson's The People short stories. NESFA publishes a book with all of them. I see that Susan Cooper's The Dark is Rising series has already been mentioned. I am also very fond of _The Boggart_. (Hm, I suppose some slightly older kids might feel it beneath them to read books marketed for younger kids; I forget what age group _The Boggart_ is supposedly aimed at.) - tky From zizban at adelphia.net Sun Nov 24 16:05:20 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 19:05:20 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <20021124230806.F254526E2E@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <960D5C4E-0009-11D7-8844-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Sunday, November 24, 2002, at 06:08 PM, definitely what wrote: > Casey Rousseau writes: > Stephen R. Donaldson's Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever > is > notably missing from the discussion so far. > > Some people i know (including myself) have a very strong aversion to > the Unbeliever trilogy. It is definitely not what i would recommend > to any 11-year-old. > > rone I dislike them. I hated them when I was in high school and I still dislike them now. I wouldn't force them,on anyone. --- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds; and the pessimist fears this is true." -- James Branch Cabell From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Sun Nov 24 16:17:06 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:17:06 -0600 Subject: Fantasy References: <5B9E62F6.3B5F03DF.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: >> name our new kittens *squeal* > > Good choice. > I got 2 kittens about 6 months ago one is completely gray (no stripes) and the other is competely black, I was laying on my couch last night snuggling with them when I realized I have Jhereg themed cats, funny thing the sub-concious, the funier part is that I named the gray one Argento which translates to silver in english and the black one Anero which translates into very black (both from Italian), so thier names are the Dragon colors, sorry this is way off topic but I couldn't resist. From andrew at networkharmoni.com.au Sun Nov 24 16:26:11 2002 From: andrew at networkharmoni.com.au (Andrew Bailey) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 08:26:11 +0800 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth References: <000001c2940c$04830910$a902a8c0@KCRINSP8200> Message-ID: <3DE16E23.9060306@networkharmoni.com.au> Casey Rousseau wrote: > H.T. asked: > > > > Stephen R. Donaldson's Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever is > notably missing from the discussion so far. My favorite of these is the > middle volume, The Illearth War. I'd also recommend his short story > collection Daughter of Regals and the two volume Mordant's Need series > (The Mirror of her Dreams and A Man Rides Through) was reasonably > entertaining. I think by the time these came out I was older than your > brother is now. > Giving a 11 year old Donaldson? Is that legal? *shudder* On the scifi front I have to recommend "The Stainless Steel Rat" series by Harry Harrison. I would suggest Fritz Leiber, but it may be just a bit too old. Andrew. From jimkatz at ix.netcom.com Sun Nov 24 16:29:00 2002 From: jimkatz at ix.netcom.com (Jim Katz) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 19:29:00 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth References: <960D5C4E-0009-11D7-8844-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <3DE16ECC.F3FA2B96@ix.netcom.com> I have to agree on this one. I found the Unbeliever series to be the most depressing fantasy books I have ever read, or I should say, attempted to read. His later stuff the true science fiction series was much better, although it too was intended for a much more mature audience. Chris Turkel wrote: > > On Sunday, November 24, 2002, at 06:08 PM, definitely what wrote: > > > Casey Rousseau writes: > > Stephen R. Donaldson's Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever > > is > > notably missing from the discussion so far. > > > > Some people i know (including myself) have a very strong aversion to > > the Unbeliever trilogy. It is definitely not what i would recommend > > to any 11-year-old. > > > > rone > > I dislike them. I hated them when I was in high school and I still > dislike them now. I wouldn't force them,on anyone. > --- > "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible > worlds; and the pessimist fears this is true." -- James Branch Cabell -- ! Jim Katz From mtiller at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 24 16:48:11 2002 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 00:48:11 -0000 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <3DE16E23.9060306@networkharmoni.com.au> Message-ID: <000401c2941c$5457a3a0$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Bailey >On the scifi front I have to recommend "The Stainless Steel Rat" series by Harry Harrison. I would suggest Fritz Leiber, >but it may be just a bit too old. I'll second that motion. Long live Jim DeGriz, the Stainless steel rat! I'd also say that the Deryni novels by Katheriner Kurtz would be good for a child of that age. Mark From zizban at adelphia.net Sun Nov 24 16:53:13 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 19:53:13 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <000401c2941c$5457a3a0$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> Message-ID: <46591DF5-0010-11D7-8A71-00039386187A@adelphia.net> > I'd also say that the Deryni novels by Katheriner Kurtz would be good > for a child of that age. > > Mark > Only the first trilogy and the camber trilogy, after that it goes down hill fast. --- "I won't eat anything I can't pronounce."---overheard in class From mtiller at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 24 16:54:11 2002 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 00:54:11 -0000 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <005001c293d9$99156e20$2462fa43@res17vcq> Message-ID: <000501c2941d$2b1edac0$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> -----Original Message----- From: Gnosis [mailto:curtis.humes at verizon.net] Sent: 24 November 2002 16:50 >I often see Sci-fi/fantasy grouped together at book stores. If your brother is interested in the sci-fi side of things, >Douglas Hill wrote some books years ago (I think they may be out of print, but I have seen a few around). The series is >called the "Last Legionary." The titles for the four books are: >Galactic Warlord >Deathwing Over Veynaa >Day of the Starwind >Planet of the Warlord I know that they are Space opera, but as a kid I really enjoyed the books by E.E. 'Doc' Smith, the "Lensman" & "Skylark" series particularly. Try your local library, you may find them there. Regards Mark From mtiller at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 24 16:55:06 2002 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 00:55:06 -0000 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <46591DF5-0010-11D7-8A71-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <000601c2941d$4bd7c6f0$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> Those were the ones I was thinking of. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Turkel [mailto:zizban at adelphia.net] Sent: 25 November 2002 00:53 To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth > I'd also say that the Deryni novels by Katheriner Kurtz would be good > for a child of that age. > > Mark > Only the first trilogy and the camber trilogy, after that it goes down hill fast. --- "I won't eat anything I can't pronounce."---overheard in class From zizban at adelphia.net Sun Nov 24 17:01:20 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 20:01:20 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <000601c2941d$4bd7c6f0$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> Message-ID: <68D1551A-0011-11D7-8A71-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Katherine Kurtz reached a high point in the third Camber book, Camber the Heretic. It was a very powerful novel. Never again has she come even close to that book. --- "It's a bad critic who tries to use fiction to psychoanalyze the author."---Orson Scott Card From mam at theworld.com Sun Nov 24 17:03:19 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 20:03:19 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <000001c2940c$04830910$a902a8c0@KCRINSP8200> Message-ID: These will be easier to find if spelled right: #K. Kurtz's Deryini Deryni #1983. Read everything else Drageran as it Dragaeran #(Twenty Years After and The Man in the Iron Mask) as well as the Count #of Monte Christo about that time, so TPG and FHYA should be fine for Cristo #The basic Tolkein package is a definite winner, although I'd start him Tolkien; a pet peeve of mine. It's "i-e" and rhymes with "seen", not "sign". -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Sun Nov 24 17:17:45 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 19:17:45 -0600 Subject: a filk: A Small Snarky Voice References: Message-ID: <3DE17A39.8050104@attbi.com> Funny, I've been working on a filk myself . . . To the tune of The Ants go Marching: Jhereg go marching one by one, hurrah, hurrah (etc) The little one stops to kill someone asks around for news needs to break a knee claps at a Demon's door tries to stay alive gives a job to Sticks sips a glass of K'haaven wrestles with his fate threatens the Divine finds a new best friend and they all go marching to the back room, to hide from the Guards, boom, boom, boom, boom . . . (good thing Steve moved to Nevada . . .) Mia From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Sun Nov 24 17:42:20 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 19:42:20 -0600 Subject: Fantasy References: Message-ID: Nytemuse wrote: > On Sun, 24 Nov 2002, Gametech wrote: >> I got 2 kittens about 6 months ago one is completely gray (no >> stripes) and the other is competely black, I was laying on my couch >> last night snuggling with them when I realized I have Jhereg themed >> cats, funny thing the sub-concious, the funier part is that I named >> the gray one Argento which translates to silver in english and the >> black one Anero which translates into very black (both from >> Italian), so thier names are the Dragon colors, sorry this is way >> off topic but I couldn't resist. > > OMG...that is so freaky. OUR kittens are completely gray (blue-gray) > and completely black, with green eyes. They're younger, about 8 > weeks (and way too small for that age), and sisters. Are your two > littermates? *giggle* Brust names...now I'm half tempted to name one > Kiera and the other Aliera or Sethra or something...esp because the > black one has a tiny tiny puff of white hair on her chest, and since > Dzur colors are black and white... > > ****** > NyteMuse They were't actually littermates but they were sharing the same cage at the pet store, and they are both male they act just lke brothers. the gray one has yellow eyes and the black has green. I would've named one Ambrus if I hadn't found another suitable 'A' name eveyone in my family unit has an 'A' name and I admit that is kinda silly... From merlin at quickfinger.com Sun Nov 24 18:20:25 2002 From: merlin at quickfinger.com (Michael Graves) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 19:20:25 -0700 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth References: <000501c2941d$2b1edac0$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> Message-ID: <003e01c29429$378f66b0$85c9fc42@merlin> >I often see Sci-fi/fantasy grouped together at book stores. If your > brother is interested in the sci-fi side of things, > >Douglas Hill wrote some books years ago (I think they may be out of > print, but I have seen a few around). The series is > >called the "Last Legionary." The titles for the four books are: > >Galactic Warlord > >Deathwing Over Veynaa > >Day of the Starwind > >Planet of the Warlord > > I know that they are Space opera, but as a kid I really enjoyed the > books by E.E. 'Doc' Smith, the "Lensman" & "Skylark" series > particularly. Try your local library, you may find them there. Someone may have already suggested this (I haven't caught the entire thread- just joined today) but for SciFi what about the Heinlein young adult books? Tunnel in the Sky, Podkayne of Mars, Starman Jones, etc? Even some of his more "adult" stuff is pretty good for most yougins- I really REALLY liked Glory Road and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress when I was 12-13 years old- but then I was a weird kid ::grin:: Merlin From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sun Nov 24 18:37:49 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:37:49 -0800 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <000501c2941d$2b1edac0$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> References: <005001c293d9$99156e20$2462fa43@res17vcq> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021124183705.025a1a30@localhost> At 12:54 AM 11/25/2002 +0000, Mark Tiller wrote: > >I know that they are Space opera, but as a kid I really enjoyed the >books by E.E. 'Doc' Smith, the "Lensman" & "Skylark" series >particularly. Try your local library, you may find them there. You're using "space opera" as if it were something one needs to apologize for liking. Humph. From dd-b at dd-b.net Sun Nov 24 18:40:12 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 24 Nov 2002 20:40:12 -0600 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <000001c2940c$04830910$a902a8c0@KCRINSP8200> References: <000001c2940c$04830910$a902a8c0@KCRINSP8200> Message-ID: "Casey Rousseau" writes: > H.T. asked: > > Since it appears the majority of everyone that had typed in > > the discussion of "fantasy" had began reading fantasy when > > they were still young I thought I might ask what is > > appropriate for a young fantasy reader? > > Stephen R. Donaldson's Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever is > notably missing from the discussion so far. My favorite of these is the > middle volume, The Illearth War. I'd also recommend his short story > collection Daughter of Regals and the two volume Mordant's Need series > (The Mirror of her Dreams and A Man Rides Through) was reasonably > entertaining. I think by the time these came out I was older than your > brother is now. I would consider this both unfit for human consumption, and specifically unfit for children. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Sun Nov 24 18:51:10 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 20:51:10 -0600 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth References: <20021124184301.7C2C126E2E@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <3DE1901E.2030805@attbi.com> Claire Rojstaczer writes: Someone mentioned Patricia C. Wrede's Magician's Ward, but I don't think anyone's mentioned her Enchanted Forest Chronicles yet. Those were my absolute favorite books at that age, and I still read them all the time. Me, three!!! How could I forget them? I was enchanted (pardon it) when I picked up Dealing with Dragons, and the princess got magical advice to leave the castle, ignore the people at the oasis, and enter the tumbledown shack. She did *exactly* what the magical advice told her to do!!! The first not-totally-stupid (in fact, very bright) princess in history! Mia (who must be in an emphatic mood tonight) From mtiller at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 24 18:52:50 2002 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 02:52:50 -0000 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021124183705.025a1a30@localhost> Message-ID: <000001c2942d$be09d5f0$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> True, but I'm just trying to head off the flak from those who don't like it. :-) -----Original Message----- From: Steven Brust [mailto:skzb at dreamcafe.com] Sent: 25 November 2002 02:38 To: Mark Tiller; 'Gnosis'; dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: RE: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth At 12:54 AM 11/25/2002 +0000, Mark Tiller wrote: > >I know that they are Space opera, but as a kid I really enjoyed the >books by E.E. 'Doc' Smith, the "Lensman" & "Skylark" series >particularly. Try your local library, you may find them there. You're using "space opera" as if it were something one needs to apologize for liking. Humph. From matthew at infodancer.org Sun Nov 24 18:44:34 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 20:44:34 -0600 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <000001c2940c$04830910$a902a8c0@KCRINSP8200> References: <000001c2940c$04830910$a902a8c0@KCRINSP8200> Message-ID: <20021125024434.GS1205@infodancer.org> On Sun, Nov 24, 2002 at 05:51:19PM -0500, Casey Rousseau wrote: > > H.T. asked: > > Since it appears the majority of everyone that had typed in > > the discussion of "fantasy" had began reading fantasy when > > they were still young I thought I might ask what is > > appropriate for a young fantasy reader? > > Stephen R. Donaldson's Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever is > notably missing from the discussion so far. My favorite of these is the > middle volume, The Illearth War. I'd also recommend his short story > collection Daughter of Regals and the two volume Mordant's Need series > (The Mirror of her Dreams and A Man Rides Through) was reasonably > entertaining. I think by the time these came out I was older than your > brother is now. Donaldson has yet to write a work suitable for younger readers. They are all consistently dark and horrific, even in their moments of beauty. Wonderful stuff, but not in a childish way at all. > I was given the first of Raymond E. Feist's books, Magician, later > released in two volumes in massmarket paper on hard cover for Christmas > '82 when I was 12. I ate it up. > > K. Kurtz's Deryini and Camber trilogies were fare for my summer vacation > earlier that same year. Kurtz has a lot more than just two trilogies in the Deryni universe now, but they are all worthwhile if not high literature. The original Deryni series was rather clumsy, but the rest are of much improved quality. > A Wizard of Earthsea and the next two sequels I read at about 11 and > love to this day. I also enjoyed Tehanu and the more recent stuff > LeGuin has done in the milieu although plenty of people will tell you to > stay away from them. They follow a progression and do get darker as > they go along. Tehanu destroys everything the initial trilogy worked so hard to build. The recent stuff is somewhere in between. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From AkodoBob at sbcglobal.net Sun Nov 24 19:45:24 2002 From: AkodoBob at sbcglobal.net (Erik Berman) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 19:45:24 -0800 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5474CACA-0028-11D7-8AC2-0005027712ED@sbcglobal.net> On Sunday, November 24, 2002, at 10:32 AM, Claire Rojstaczer wrote: > Not sure why no one has mentioned Brian Jacques's Redwall books yet, > but they're definitely aimed at that age group. They haven't survived > the test of time as comfort books for me, but I do recall enjoying them > when I was 10 or so. That's a definite yes. The Redwall series has exactly what I think a 10 or 11 year old would like. Despite the formulaic style, I still enjoy returning to them once and a while. > > > Tamora Pierce's books are targetted primarily towards girls, but she > does have two series, Circle of Magic and The Circle Opens, that are a > bit more egalitarian. Her other books are good for that age, too, but > I don't know if a boy would enjoy them. I never read anything by her until I was 20 but after it was recommended to me b a friend, I ended up loving her "Song of the Lioness" quartet, especially the first one. It has a great story and it is refreshing to see a "girl dresses up like boy" concept be told so well. AkodoBob From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Sun Nov 24 20:27:44 2002 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 23:27:44 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth References: <5474CACA-0028-11D7-8AC2-0005027712ED@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <3DE1A6C0.D998B272@earthlink.net> I'd recommend Elizabeth Moon's The Deed of Paksenarrion. My little brothers were about 11 when they first read it, and they enjoyed it greatly. It's still one of my favorites. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~jhereg69 From don at easterlys.com Mon Nov 25 00:30:12 2002 From: don at easterlys.com (Don Easterly) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 23:30:12 -0900 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth References: <000401c2941c$5457a3a0$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> Message-ID: <007501c2945c$e0941b60$0300a8c0@dad> Throw a little H.Beam Piper in there too? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Tiller" To: "'Andrew Bailey'" ; Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 3:48 PM Subject: RE: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew Bailey > > >On the scifi front I have to recommend "The Stainless Steel Rat" series > by Harry Harrison. I would suggest Fritz Leiber, > >but it may be just a bit too old. > > I'll second that motion. Long live Jim DeGriz, the Stainless steel rat! > > I'd also say that the Deryni novels by Katheriner Kurtz would be good > for a child of that age. > > Mark > > > > From sirchuck at macomb.com Mon Nov 25 03:37:35 2002 From: sirchuck at macomb.com (John Mietus) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 05:37:35 -0600 Subject: (Orca related) Overcast queries In-Reply-To: <1038155043.1154.3.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: Jag said: >> It was my impression as well as that Furnace was what the Dragaerans >> called the sun. I wonder what the Easterners call it since they can see >> it? > > I'm tempted to say they still call it the Furnace, since they overcast > isn't required to think of a star as a giant furnace. However, I also > know the Easterners don't speak Dragaeran (and the Dragaerans don't > speak English), so I'm sure whatever word the Easterners use, gets > translated to the word in Dragaeran that gets translated to 'Furnace' in > english :) I would go further in suggesting that, since there is ample evidence to support the idea that the overcast is primarily only over the Dragaeran Empire, the humans/Easterners who live outside its influence (e.g. Fenario) still simply refer to the sun as "the sun." Monkey pudding, John "Either I think up an idea, or, tomorrow, we die - which, Baldrick, I have to tell you, I have no intention of doing, because I want to be young and wild, and then I want to be middle-aged and rich, and then I want to be old and annoy people by pretending that I'm deaf." -- Edmund Blackadder III, Esq From sirchuck at macomb.com Mon Nov 25 03:50:17 2002 From: sirchuck at macomb.com (John Mietus) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 05:50:17 -0600 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <000001c2940c$04830910$a902a8c0@KCRINSP8200> Message-ID: Casey Rousseau said: > > H.T. asked: >> Since it appears the majority of everyone that had typed in >> the discussion of "fantasy" had began reading fantasy when >> they were still young I thought I might ask what is >> appropriate for a young fantasy reader? > > Stephen R. Donaldson's Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever is > notably missing from the discussion so far. My favorite of these is the I wouldn't think the themes involved, the overly-depressing characterization of the utterly unappealing protagonist through the entire series, nor the rape scene early in the first book and subsequent whinging over it through the rest of the series are really appropriate recommendations in this case, particularly when the parents are worried about any "dark" influence the elder sibling has on the younger. Later on, yes, by all means these books are recommended; right now, no. Has anyone mentioned the Mushroom Planet books yet? Granted, they're science fiction, but still. Tender quails, John "No, you see, the thing about Heaven, is that Heaven is for people who like the sort of things that go on in Heaven, like, uh, well, singing, talking to God, watering potted plants... Whereas Hell, on the other hand, is for people who like the other sorts of things: adultery, pillage, torture - those areas." -- Prince Edmund Blackadder, Duke of Edinburgh From jimkatz at ix.netcom.com Mon Nov 25 06:24:44 2002 From: jimkatz at ix.netcom.com (Jim Katz) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 09:24:44 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth References: <000401c2941c$5457a3a0$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> <007501c2945c$e0941b60$0300a8c0@dad> Message-ID: <3DE232AC.F0A51C85@ix.netcom.com> Yup, Nothing wrong with little Fuzzies. Don Easterly wrote: > > Throw a little H.Beam Piper in there too? > -- ! Jim Katz From pgranzeau at cox.net Mon Nov 25 07:16:15 2002 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:16:15 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20021125101509.01d9b6b0@pop.east.cox.net> At 18:09 11/24/2002 -0500, Thomas Yan wrote: >"H. T." writes: > > > Since it appears the majority of everyone that had typed in the > > discussion of "fantasy" had began reading fantasy when they were still > > young I thought I might ask what is appropriate for a young fantasy > > reader? > > > > I have an 11-year old step-brother who very much enjoys fantasy, and > > he has asked me what else there is in this genera to read. >-snip- > >Pamela Dean's Secret Country trilogy; it is currently out of print, >but will be reprinted in late 2003 by Firebird Books. While written about children, I think Dean's books are aimed at an adult, and very literate, readership. I'm a grandfather, and _I_ have trouble reading her novels, because of my lack of background in literature (only one college course in Modern Literature). I would think that many of the other novels being suggested are a bit beyond the typical 11 year old. A look at the "Young Adult" genre might find a few gems, however. How about Jane Yolen's two "Jenna" books, _Sister Light, Sister Dark_ and _White Jenna_? Yolen also edited a series of YA novels, which might turn up some good books for kids, as well as authored many more herself. Diane Duane has also written a series of novels aimed at the YA reader. The "Wizards" series starts with _So You Want to be a Wizard_, I believe. Patricia Wrede has also written a set of YA novels--the "Enchanted Forest" starts with _Dealing with Dragons_. I am assuming your step-brother has already been through Harry Potter, by the way... My own grandson, at 11, was still reading "Animorph" books, by the way. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From RuhlenR at missouri.edu Mon Nov 25 07:22:47 2002 From: RuhlenR at missouri.edu (Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student)) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 09:22:47 -0600 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth Message-ID: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E0CEBB9@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> The only one I haven't seen mentioned is Meridith Ann Pierce's _Dark Angel_ trilogy, although it's main character is female. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Katz [mailto:jimkatz at ix.netcom.com] > Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 8:27 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth > I forgot to mention "The Chronicles of Narnia" by CS Lewis. > also an excellent series for kids of all ages. The only caution about Narnia is I wouldn't recommend it to someone of Arabic background, at least not _Horse & His Boy_. I have a friend who was amazed that her boyfriend hadn't read them, and then after re-reading them decided not to suggest he read it, because he's Iranian and these days is a little sensitive about that. CS Lewis was way too obvious about his own prejudices in that book. Rachel From casey at trinityhartford.org Mon Nov 25 07:40:01 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:40:01 -0500 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E0CEBB9@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: Rachel wrote: > The only caution about Narnia is I wouldn't recommend it to someone of > Arabic background, at least not _Horse & His Boy_. I have a friend who > was amazed that her boyfriend hadn't read them, and then after > re-reading them decided not to suggest he read it, because he's Iranian > and these days is a little sensitive about that. CS Lewis was way too > obvious about his own prejudices in that book. Yes. In case anyone is not aware, Narnia is fairly explicitly Christian allegory. For that matter, so is Ender's Game, but Ender seems to slip under most people's radar. Card and Lewis are two writers who make no bones about their religious beliefs. To me it enriches their fiction, but YMMV. From agrajag at dragaera.net Mon Nov 25 07:40:11 2002 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 25 Nov 2002 10:40:11 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: <002401c29372$b5769ec0$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: <1038238811.1277.11.camel@loiosh> On Sun, 2002-11-24 at 02:26, Gametech wrote: > I don't see why but almost everyone I know has the "Harry Potter series > really isn't all that bad." attitude and is usually translates into I love > the series I can't get enough of it gimmie gimmie gimmie but are too ashamed > to just say Most of my friends just have to 'I can't get enough of it gimmie gimmie gimmie when's the d at mn 5th book coming out?' attitude. This includes the friend who handed me my first Brust novel[1]. I'm of the opinion that the series is great for audiences of all ages, and with the exception of the second book[2], only gets better as they go along. Yeah, the books aren't to terribly deep, but you don't always need that to be entertained. If you did, we wouldn't have any action movies out there :) [1] Actually, she handed me a bookbag full off all the Vlad/Khaavren novels published at the time. [2] Everyone I know agrees that the second book wasn't quite as good as the rest. From casey at trinityhartford.org Mon Nov 25 07:48:46 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:48:46 -0500 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: OK. I withdraw my recommendation of the Thomas Covenant series as _beginning_ fantasy, and will admit that I read them after I was already a well established reader of the genre (even if I was 11 or 12). As for forcing anything on anyone, well that I just would not do. As for the typos in my post, I am indebted to Mark for the corrections. Thank you kind sir. I can't believe I misspelled Dragaeran. The rest I might get away with pleading AFB, but ... As for Kurtz, yes, I was explicitly recommending the first two trilogies. I can't speak from personal experience reading the Redwall books, but they were favorites of my sister-in-law for many years (including at age 11), and I have enjoyed catching the animated series on PBS on Saturday mornings. Casey. Wow. People feel strongly about Donaldson! John Mietus > I wouldn't think the themes involved, the overly-depressing > characterization of the utterly unappealing protagonist > through the entire series, nor the rape scene early in the > first book and subsequent whinging over it through the rest > of the series are really appropriate recommendations in this > case, particularly when the parents are worried about any > "dark" influence the elder sibling has on the younger. Later > on, yes, by all means these books are recommended; right now, > no. David Dyer-Bennet > I would consider this both unfit for human consumption, and > specifically unfit for children. Matthew Hunter > Donaldson has yet to write a work suitable for younger readers. > > They are all consistently dark and horrific, even in their > moments of beauty. > > Wonderful stuff, but not in a childish way at all. Jim Katz > ... I found the Unbeliever series to be the most depressing fantasy > books I have ever read, or I should say, attempted to read.... Andrew Bailey > Giving a 11 year old Donaldson? Is that legal? *shudder* Chris Turkel > I dislike them. I hated them when I was in high school and I still > dislike them now. I wouldn't force them,on anyone. rone > Some people i know (including myself) have a very strong aversion to > the Unbeliever trilogy. It is definitely not what i would recommend > to any 11-year-old. From rick at 404.978.org Mon Nov 25 08:21:29 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:21:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: A question re: Begining Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: <004f01c293c4$e682cc80$9d825f41@srnmnigo> References: <004f01c293c4$e682cc80$9d825f41@srnmnigo> Message-ID: <49309.65.58.84.220.1038241289.squirrel@404.978.org> Ian Jamieson said: >> I have an 11-year old step-brother who very much enjoys fantasy, and >> he > has >> asked me what else there is in this genera to read. > > I have a few ideas: > The Harper Hall books of Anne McCaffrey, 'Dragonsinger', > 'Dragonsong' > and 'Dragondrums' are excellent books for an 11 year old. I liked > McCaffrey until she milked the idea too much, ala, Eddings. > A second vote for 'Ender's Game' by Orson Scott Card. > I can't believe that noone has mentioned 'The Hobbit' by JRR > Tolkien. The Heinlien youth books as mentioned are good, especially, > 'Space > Cadet' and 'Starman Jones'. I think people had been purposely staying away from SF titles because of the original request for beginning FANTASY books... Yes, if you open things up to SF as well, I'm sure there will be a further outpouring... ...though really, these lists are starting to look like carbon copies of the younger end of everyone's "comfort books" from the recent thread of some weeks back. -Rick From rick at 404.978.org Mon Nov 25 08:25:34 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:25:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: More FantaSy books... Message-ID: <49325.65.58.84.220.1038241534.squirrel@404.978.org> Though perhaps more appropriate for an older (say young adult) reader, I was tearing through the Moorcock's Elric books at 10 as well. Good stuff, but perhaps a bit on the dark side for one so young. -Rick From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Nov 25 08:32:55 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 25 Nov 2002 10:32:55 -0600 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20021125101509.01d9b6b0@pop.east.cox.net> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20021125101509.01d9b6b0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: "Peter H. Granzeau" writes: > At 18:09 11/24/2002 -0500, Thomas Yan wrote: > >"H. T." writes: > > > > > Since it appears the majority of everyone that had typed in the > > > discussion of "fantasy" had began reading fantasy when they were still > > > young I thought I might ask what is appropriate for a young fantasy > > > reader? > > > > > > I have an 11-year old step-brother who very much enjoys fantasy, and > > > he has asked me what else there is in this genera to read. > >-snip- > > > >Pamela Dean's Secret Country trilogy; it is currently out of print, > >but will be reprinted in late 2003 by Firebird Books. > > While written about children, I think Dean's books are aimed at an > adult, and very literate, readership. I'm a grandfather, and _I_ have > trouble reading her novels, because of my lack of background in > literature (only one college course in Modern Literature). On the other hand, they're being reprinted in a young-adult line, and quite a few younger readers have liked them. Probably without getting every single bit of them; that's true of all the best books and *especially* the best children's books -- you keep getting more from them as you grow. > I would think that many of the other novels being suggested are a bit > beyond the typical 11 year old. A look at the "Young Adult" genre > might find a few gems, however. Kids vary so much. I unfortunately can't remember for sure what I was reading at 11; not that *I'm* in any way typical, either. I'm pretty sure I read Heinlein's _Glory Road_ within a year of 11 one way or the other, for example, and I liked that a *lot*. > How about Jane Yolen's two "Jenna" books, _Sister Light, Sister Dark_ > and _White Jenna_? Yolen also edited a series of YA novels, which > might turn up some good books for kids, as well as authored many more > herself. > > Diane Duane has also written a series of novels aimed at the YA > reader. The "Wizards" series starts with _So You Want to be a > Wizard_, I believe. > > Patricia Wrede has also written a set of YA novels--the "Enchanted > Forest" starts with _Dealing with Dragons_. I've seen these mentioned earlier, but they bear mentioning again certainly. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Nov 25 08:34:00 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 25 Nov 2002 10:34:00 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Casey Rousseau" writes: > Rachel wrote: > > The only caution about Narnia is I wouldn't recommend it to someone of > > Arabic background, at least not _Horse & His Boy_. I have a friend who > > was amazed that her boyfriend hadn't read them, and then after > > re-reading them decided not to suggest he read it, because he's Iranian > > and these days is a little sensitive about that. CS Lewis was way too > > obvious about his own prejudices in that book. > > Yes. In case anyone is not aware, Narnia is fairly explicitly Christian > allegory. For that matter, so is Ender's Game, but Ender seems to slip > under most people's radar. Card and Lewis are two writers who make no bones > about their religious beliefs. To me it enriches their fiction, but YMMV. Fascinating. Narnia ticked me off, but Ender's Game which I read *much* later slipped completely past me. In fact I really can't see any allegory there even now. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From jazzfish at softhome.net Mon Nov 25 08:35:28 2002 From: jazzfish at softhome.net (Tucker) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:35:28 -0500 Subject: Earthsea (was A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth) In-Reply-To: <20021125024434.GS1205@infodancer.org> References: <000001c2940c$04830910$a902a8c0@KCRINSP8200> <000001c2940c$04830910$a902a8c0@KCRINSP8200> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20021125112920.025a9468@pop.softhome.net> > >>* Ursula K Le Guin's Earthsea trilogy (the first three books only) > >I dunno... they're a little dry and slow-moving. Good, but maybe not great > >as an introduction to fantasy. >Umm... mileage definitely does vary. *boggle* It's the density of the prose, I think. I didn't find them to be an easy read at all. (I enjoyed the first two immensely, the third less so, but they all took effort.) I'd be personally a little wary of using them as a first intro to fantasy, although definitely throw them at him later. >Tehanu destroys everything the initial trilogy worked so hard to >build. The recent stuff is somewhere in between. Maybe I'm projecting bad memories of Tehanu onto the original three. (Haven't read anything past Tehanu yet; not entirely sure if I'm going to.) ---- The time for action is past-- now is the time for senseless bickering! --Ashleigh Brilliant From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Nov 25 08:36:31 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 25 Nov 2002 10:36:31 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Casey Rousseau" writes: > As for Kurtz, yes, I was explicitly recommending the first two trilogies. That's about right. Either that or just the first 1. I'd be very doubtful about anything past that, anyway. > Wow. People feel strongly about Donaldson! True. Well, about his *books*. From what little I've seen of him personally, he's not only a generally nice man, he even expresses all the right attitudes (i.e. he agrees with me) in philosophy-of-writing discussions. I just can't stand the books he writes. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From rick at 404.978.org Mon Nov 25 08:37:57 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:37:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fantasy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49394.65.58.84.220.1038242277.squirrel@404.978.org> Nytemuse said: > OK, so while I was doing research on what to name our new kittens > *squeal*, I hit across a name that reminded me of a book I really loved > as a kid. It's called "The Castle In the Attick" by Elizabeth Winthrop > (sp?) about a 10-year-old ish kid whose English nanny is going back to > England and he doesn't want her to. She gives him a toy castle to play > with and he discovers it's all magical and stuff when he shrinks down to > its size and adventures through it in his quest to find a way for > Mrs. Phillips to stay with him. And apparently there's a sequel, > although I can't remember for sure if I've read that one too... It's > listed as appropriate for 9-12 yo So it's a fantasy version of "The Indian in the Cupboard"? -Rick From casey at trinityhartford.org Mon Nov 25 09:02:43 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:02:43 -0500 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David Dyer-Bennet wrote (in response to me): > > As for Kurtz, yes, I was explicitly recommending the first two > > trilogies. > > That's about right. Either that or just the first 1. I'd be very > doubtful about anything past that, anyway. I was trying to stick firmly to books published by 1982 or '83 at the latest to be sure to be close to the right age range. Then again, by the time I was 11, I was well into Fantasy and working my way through Heinlein, Herbert and a bunch of other hard SF. > > Wow. People feel strongly about Donaldson! > > True. Well, about his *books*. From what little I've seen of him Touch?. > personally, he's not only a generally nice man, he even expresses all > the right attitudes (i.e. he agrees with me) in philosophy-of-writing > discussions. I just can't stand the books he writes. I'm curious. A question especially for those who responded strongly to my recommendation for the Covenant series, how old were you when you read them, if you recall. I, for example, do not recall the rape scene mentioned by someone as being at the begining of the first one - Lord Foul's Bane - although I think I do remember a human sacrifice. It has been many years since I went back an reread this one. Ususally I'll start with The Illearth War if I want to dip back into it. I definitely read them before The One Tree came out in April of '82 which means I was not yet 12 and may have been only 10 when I started reading these. Casey From zizban at adelphia.net Mon Nov 25 09:28:26 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:28:26 -0500 Subject: Earthsea (was A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20021125112920.025a9468@pop.softhome.net> Message-ID: <4E1F0CF4-009B-11D7-ADA0-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Monday, November 25, 2002, at 11:35 AM, Tucker wrote: > >> >>* Ursula K Le Guin's Earthsea trilogy (the first three books only) >> >I dunno... they're a little dry and slow-moving. Good, but maybe not >> great >> >as an introduction to fantasy. >> Umm... mileage definitely does vary. *boggle* > > It's the density of the prose, I think. I didn't find them to be an > easy read at all. (I enjoyed the first two immensely, the third less > so, but they all took effort.) I'd be personally a little wary of > using them as a first intro to fantasy, although definitely throw them > at him later. > >> Tehanu destroys everything the initial trilogy worked so hard to >> build. The recent stuff is somewhere in between. > > Maybe I'm projecting bad memories of Tehanu onto the original three. > (Haven't read anything past Tehanu yet; not entirely sure if I'm going > to.) > > I found the second book, the Tombs of Ataun, the most boring to read. I had a lot more patience in High School so I slogged through it but Earthsea is dense reading, to be sure. From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Nov 25 09:13:09 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:13:09 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20021125171309.GB7875@infodancer.org> On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 10:34:00AM -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > "Casey Rousseau" writes: > > Rachel wrote: > > > The only caution about Narnia is I wouldn't recommend it to someone of > > > Arabic background, at least not _Horse & His Boy_. I have a friend who > > > was amazed that her boyfriend hadn't read them, and then after > > > re-reading them decided not to suggest he read it, because he's Iranian > > > and these days is a little sensitive about that. CS Lewis was way too > > > obvious about his own prejudices in that book. > > Yes. In case anyone is not aware, Narnia is fairly explicitly Christian > > allegory. For that matter, so is Ender's Game, but Ender seems to slip > > under most people's radar. Card and Lewis are two writers who make no bones > > about their religious beliefs. To me it enriches their fiction, but YMMV. > Fascinating. Narnia ticked me off, but Ender's Game which I read > *much* later slipped completely past me. In fact I really can't see > any allegory there even now. Ender's Game seems clean to me too. The later books are a little more arguable, and certain of Card's work is very explicitly religious. As for Narnia, no denying the allegory, but it's a good story nonetheless. It's not a book that tries to convert you, it's just told from an explicitly Christian viewpoint. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From nytemuse at auros.org Mon Nov 25 09:34:33 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 09:34:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20021125101509.01d9b6b0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > How about Jane Yolen's two "Jenna" books, _Sister Light, Sister Dark_ and > _White Jenna_? Yolen also edited a series of YA novels, which might turn > up some good books for kids, as well as authored many more herself. I would put those two at more of a young adult level than children, really. ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Nov 25 09:35:51 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 25 Nov 2002 11:35:51 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Casey Rousseau" writes: > I'm curious. A question especially for those who responded strongly to my > recommendation for the Covenant series, how old were you when you read them, > if you recall. I, for example, do not recall the rape scene mentioned by > someone as being at the begining of the first one - Lord Foul's Bane - > although I think I do remember a human sacrifice. It has been many years > since I went back an reread this one. Ususally I'll start with The Illearth > War if I want to dip back into it. I definitely read them before The One > Tree came out in April of '82 which means I was not yet 12 and may have been > only 10 when I started reading these. I read the very first of the Covenant series, and no others. I read it when it was first released, which would be 1977; so I was 23 at the time. I don't recall the rape business at all either, I don't think I especially noticed it as a big deal at the time. Unpleasant characters committing rapes was hardly a new thing in fiction, and this one didn't strike me as especially significant. I just found the entire book both boring and unpleasant in all possible ways. I found the characters to be unpleasant people and not believable, and I found the use of language to be very poor. I didn't mind his use of archaic words (lots of people do that, Gene Wolfe did it much more extensively and brilliantly in the New Sun books), but I minded that he used some of them *too much*, and he used them incorrectly. The prose just limped and clunked for me. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Nov 25 09:37:15 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 25 Nov 2002 11:37:15 -0600 Subject: Earthsea (was A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20021125112920.025a9468@pop.softhome.net> References: <000001c2940c$04830910$a902a8c0@KCRINSP8200> <000001c2940c$04830910$a902a8c0@KCRINSP8200> <5.1.0.14.1.20021125112920.025a9468@pop.softhome.net> Message-ID: Tucker writes: > > >>* Ursula K Le Guin's Earthsea trilogy (the first three books only) > > >I dunno... they're a little dry and slow-moving. Good, but maybe not great > > >as an introduction to fantasy. > >Umm... mileage definitely does vary. *boggle* > > It's the density of the prose, I think. I didn't find them to be an > easy read at all. (I enjoyed the first two immensely, the third less > so, but they all took effort.) I'd be personally a little wary of > using them as a first intro to fantasy, although definitely throw them > at him later. Very strange. I loved them, a long time ago. So much that, after reading them many times, I finally bought the hardcovers. I'm not sure I read them as early as 11, but definitely before 18. I found them very easy, approachable, books, I'd have classified them as excellent for YA and younger children. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Nov 25 09:38:53 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 25 Nov 2002 11:38:53 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: <20021125171309.GB7875@infodancer.org> References: <20021125171309.GB7875@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Matthew Hunter writes: > On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 10:34:00AM -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > "Casey Rousseau" writes: > > > Rachel wrote: > > > > The only caution about Narnia is I wouldn't recommend it to someone of > > > > Arabic background, at least not _Horse & His Boy_. I have a friend who > > > > was amazed that her boyfriend hadn't read them, and then after > > > > re-reading them decided not to suggest he read it, because he's Iranian > > > > and these days is a little sensitive about that. CS Lewis was way too > > > > obvious about his own prejudices in that book. > > > Yes. In case anyone is not aware, Narnia is fairly explicitly Christian > > > allegory. For that matter, so is Ender's Game, but Ender seems to slip > > > under most people's radar. Card and Lewis are two writers who make no bones > > > about their religious beliefs. To me it enriches their fiction, but YMMV. > > Fascinating. Narnia ticked me off, but Ender's Game which I read > > *much* later slipped completely past me. In fact I really can't see > > any allegory there even now. > > Ender's Game seems clean to me too. The later books are a little > more arguable, and certain of Card's work is very explicitly > religious. Like _Saints_, for example? Didn't bother me a bit there, since it clearly belonged. > As for Narnia, no denying the allegory, but it's a good story > nonetheless. It's not a book that tries to convert you, it's > just told from an explicitly Christian viewpoint. That's what bugged me, it's *not* explicitly christian. It's a fantasy world, with non-christian fantasy religious elements, which he whips the covers off at the end and blatantly associates with christianity. That's what pissed me off about it. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From nytemuse at auros.org Mon Nov 25 09:42:22 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 09:42:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fantasy In-Reply-To: <49394.65.58.84.220.1038242277.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, Rick Castello wrote: > Nytemuse said: > > OK, so while I was doing research on what to name our new kittens > > *squeal*, I hit across a name that reminded me of a book I really loved > > as a kid. It's called "The Castle In the Attick" by Elizabeth Winthrop > > (sp?) about a 10-year-old ish kid whose English nanny is going back to > > England and he doesn't want her to. She gives him a toy castle to play > > with and he discovers it's all magical and stuff when he shrinks down to > > its size and adventures through it in his quest to find a way for > > Mrs. Phillips to stay with him. And apparently there's a sequel, > > although I can't remember for sure if I've read that one too... It's > > listed as appropriate for 9-12 yo > > So it's a fantasy version of "The Indian in the Cupboard"? Um, I would guess so...it being a long time since I read "Indian", I can't remember for sure, but from what I remember, "Castle" seemed a little more complicated, possibly "darker"...but I couldn't swear on that. All I can say is I rather liked "Castle" but not so much "Indian". ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From pddb at demesne.com Mon Nov 25 10:00:16 2002 From: pddb at demesne.com (pddb at demesne.com) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:00:16 -0600 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20021125101509.01d9b6b0@pop.east.cox.net>; from pgranzeau@cox.net on Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 10:16:15AM -0500 References: <5.2.0.9.2.20021125101509.01d9b6b0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <20021125120016.A16403@gw.dd-b.net> On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 10:16:15AM -0500, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > At 18:09 11/24/2002 -0500, Thomas Yan wrote: > >"H. T." writes: > > > > > Since it appears the majority of everyone that had typed in the > > > discussion of "fantasy" had began reading fantasy when they were still > > > young I thought I might ask what is appropriate for a young fantasy > > > reader? > > > > > > I have an 11-year old step-brother who very much enjoys fantasy, and > > > he has asked me what else there is in this genera to read. > >-snip- > > > >Pamela Dean's Secret Country trilogy; it is currently out of print, > >but will be reprinted in late 2003 by Firebird Books. > > While written about children, I think Dean's books are aimed at an adult, > and very literate, readership. I'm a grandfather, and _I_ have trouble > reading her novels, because of my lack of background in literature (only > one college course in Modern Literature). They're aimed at people who don't mind having a lot of stuff go over their heads, or who actively enjoy the sensation. That probably applies to more 11-year-olds than adults, but, as indeed with most of these suggestions, it'll depend on the 11-year-old. > I would think that many of the other novels being suggested are a bit > beyond the typical 11 year old. A look at the "Young Adult" genre might > find a few gems, however. The YA fantasy field has grown enormously in recent years. I think a couple of the URL's suggested earlier in the discussion address this supply of stuff. I'm so far behind on it I can't suggest much. A lot of the YA I read is not fantasy, anyway. > How about Jane Yolen's two "Jenna" books, _Sister Light, Sister Dark_ and > _White Jenna_? Yolen also edited a series of YA novels, which might turn > up some good books for kids, as well as authored many more herself. That's where the Enchanted Forest Books were first published. And Kara Dalkey's THE LITTLE SISTER is another real goody from that line. Whimsical Japanese-based reverse-quest fantasy, with a bittersweet core. > Diane Duane has also written a series of novels aimed at the YA > reader. The "Wizards" series starts with _So You Want to be a Wizard_, I > believe. Yep, and it's brilliant. > My own grandson, at 11, was still reading "Animorph" books, by the way. When I was 11 I was reading Dickens, but I was also still reading picture books. In some ways it's a fairly expansive age. -- Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet (pddb at demesne.com) "I will open my heart to a blank page and interview the witnesses." John M. Ford, "Shared World" From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Nov 25 09:54:42 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:54:42 -0600 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20021125101509.01d9b6b0@pop.east.cox.net> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20021125101509.01d9b6b0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <20021125175442.GC7875@infodancer.org> On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 10:16:15AM -0500, "Peter H. Granzeau" wrote: > How about Jane Yolen's two "Jenna" books, _Sister Light, Sister Dark_ and > _White Jenna_? Yolen also edited a series of YA novels, which might turn > up some good books for kids, as well as authored many more herself. Gods, no. That is the ONLY book I have literally torn up and thrown against the wall. > Diane Duane has also written a series of novels aimed at the YA > reader. The "Wizards" series starts with _So You Want to be a Wizard_, I > believe. > Patricia Wrede has also written a set of YA novels--the "Enchanted Forest" > starts with _Dealing with Dragons_. Excellent recommendations here. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Mon Nov 25 10:14:40 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:14:40 -0600 Subject: Verse and Verse Message-ID: <3DE26890.6030702@attbi.com> Gee, Mark, Steve hasn't said *anything* about our deathless rhyme! My poor widdle feewings are hurt. Mia From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Nov 25 10:02:04 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:02:04 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20021125180204.GD7875@infodancer.org> On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 10:36:31AM -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > "Casey Rousseau" writes: > > As for Kurtz, yes, I was explicitly recommending the first two trilogies. > That's about right. Either that or just the first 1. I'd be very > doubtful about anything past that, anyway. That's odd. IMHO they get better, rather than worse. Particularly the first trilogy -- it's very rough, obviously an early and unpolished set of books. But then, I am a bit of an occultist myself, so I speak Kurtz's language regarding the endless use of ritual magic by the Deryni. That's such a large component of the later books that anyone not on her wavelength would find it rough going. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Nov 25 10:04:21 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:04:21 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20021125180421.GE7875@infodancer.org> On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 12:02:43PM -0500, Casey Rousseau wrote: > I'm curious. A question especially for those who responded strongly to my > recommendation for the Covenant series, how old were you when you read them, > if you recall. I, for example, do not recall the rape scene mentioned by > someone as being at the begining of the first one - Lord Foul's Bane - > although I think I do remember a human sacrifice. The rape scene is there. It forms a major plot point for the rest of the trilogy! The human sacrifice comes at the beginning of the Seocnd Chronicles, which are even darker and more disturbing. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From den at monger.net Mon Nov 25 10:08:51 2002 From: den at monger.net (Dennis Higbee) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:08:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: <20021125180204.GD7875@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 10:36:31AM -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > "Casey Rousseau" writes: > > > As for Kurtz, yes, I was explicitly recommending the first two trilogies. > > That's about right. Either that or just the first 1. I'd be very > > doubtful about anything past that, anyway. > > That's odd. IMHO they get better, rather than worse. > Particularly the first trilogy -- it's very rough, obviously an > early and unpolished set of books. This is the consensus among Deryni fans. The author herself has said on numerous occasions that she'd like to take out a number of elements from the first trilogy that she only put in because she "thought they had to be there." > But then, I am a bit of an occultist myself, so I speak Kurtz's > language regarding the endless use of ritual magic by the Deryni. > That's such a large component of the later books that anyone not > on her wavelength would find it rough going. I'm not interested in the occult at all, and I enjoy all the Deryni books. I am interested in medieval history, though. I think that might be another core audience for her. -Dennis From AkodoBob at sbcglobal.net Mon Nov 25 10:49:03 2002 From: AkodoBob at sbcglobal.net (Erik Berman) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:49:03 -0800 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: <20021125171309.GB7875@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <913D785F-00A6-11D7-9BD0-0005027712ED@sbcglobal.net> On Monday, November 25, 2002, at 09:13 AM, Matthew Hunter wrote: >>>> The only caution about Narnia is I wouldn't recommend it to someone >>>> of >>>> Arabic background, at least not _Horse & His Boy_. I have a friend >>>> who >>>> was amazed that her boyfriend hadn't read them, and then after >>>> re-reading them decided not to suggest he read it, because he's >>>> Iranian >>>> and these days is a little sensitive about that. CS Lewis was way too >>>> obvious about his own prejudices in that book. >>> Yes. In case anyone is not aware, Narnia is fairly explicitly >>> Christian >>> allegory. For that matter, so is Ender's Game, but Ender seems to >>> slip >>> under most people's radar. Card and Lewis are two writers who make >>> no bones >>> about their religious beliefs. To me it enriches their fiction, but >>> YMMV. >> Fascinating. Narnia ticked me off, but Ender's Game which I read >> *much* later slipped completely past me. In fact I really can't see >> any allegory there even now. > > Ender's Game seems clean to me too. The later books are a little > more arguable, and certain of Card's work is very explicitly > religious. I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure that Card mentioned in his foreword that he wrote Ender's Game without intending to add any extra or hidden meaning to it, but instead it just happens to be one of those books that people will take away some meaning. Soldiers have thought it was about the tragedy of war, kids about isolation because of intelligence, I suppose it could be seen as religious allegory too, though I can't see it myself, I'd like to hear how you though Ender's game a Christian allegory. In addition, I don't deny that there must be some sort of religious aspect to his works, he did grow up in Utah, and probably grew up with a certain amount of conscious and unconscious religious influences. AkodoBob who can't think up a witty quote From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Nov 25 11:14:17 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 25 Nov 2002 13:14:17 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: <20021125180204.GD7875@infodancer.org> References: <20021125180204.GD7875@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Matthew Hunter writes: > On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 10:36:31AM -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > "Casey Rousseau" writes: > > > As for Kurtz, yes, I was explicitly recommending the first two trilogies. > > That's about right. Either that or just the first 1. I'd be very > > doubtful about anything past that, anyway. > > That's odd. IMHO they get better, rather than worse. > Particularly the first trilogy -- it's very rough, obviously an > early and unpolished set of books. They're rough in some ways, but they also have that first-novel gleam on them. *That's* the story that finally drove her to telling it formally. > But then, I am a bit of an occultist myself, so I speak Kurtz's > language regarding the endless use of ritual magic by the Deryni. > That's such a large component of the later books that anyone not > on her wavelength would find it rough going. Yeah, I felt she got bogged down in the made-up minutia rather too much. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From davids at kithrup.com Mon Nov 25 11:20:09 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:20:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: <913D785F-00A6-11D7-9BD0-0005027712ED@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, Erik Berman wrote: > >On Monday, November 25, 2002, at 09:13 AM, Matthew Hunter wrote: [ I think the poster that wrote this part was Casey Rousseau ] >>>> Yes. In case anyone is not aware, Narnia is fairly explicitly >>>> Christian allegory. For that matter, so is Ender's Game, but >>>> Ender seems to slip under most people's radar. Card and >>>> Lewis are two writers who make no bones about their religious >>>> beliefs. To me it enriches their fiction, but YMMV. >>> Fascinating. Narnia ticked me off, but Ender's Game which I read >>> *much* later slipped completely past me. In fact I really can't see >>> any allegory there even now. >> >> Ender's Game seems clean to me too. The later books are a little >> more arguable, and certain of Card's work is very explicitly >> religious. > > I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure that Card mentioned in his >foreword that he wrote Ender's Game without intending to add any extra >or hidden meaning to it, but instead it just happens to be one of those >books that people will take away some meaning. > I suppose it could be seen as religious allegory too, though I can't >see it myself, I'd like to hear how you though Ender's game a >Christian allegory. Well, I'm not the original poster, but some of the points in Ender's Game that could be seen as vaguely Christian came to mind as soon as I read that allegation of allegory. Spoiler space: - Ender is perceived as the potential savior, the only one capable of defeating the great evil that besets humanity. - In the ending, Ender decides to "sacrifice" himself by losing the game by breaking the rules. Instead of losing, he wins completely. - Ender's relationship with his sister might be seen as an echo of Jesus' relationship to his mother and/or Mary Magdalene. - Ender's brother is named "Peter", and this brother capitalizes on Ender's sacrifice for his own benefit. This might be a dig at the Roman Catholic Church. Or maybe not. It's a lot vaguer than Narnia, and I believe Card when he says that it wasn't deliberate. From seanp at ea.com Mon Nov 25 11:21:04 2002 From: seanp at ea.com (Penney, Sean) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:21:04 -0800 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth Message-ID: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F59519@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> > I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure that Card mentioned in his >foreword that he wrote Ender's Game without intending to add any extra >or hidden meaning to it, but instead it just happens to be one of those >books that people will take away some meaning. >In addition, I don't deny that there must be some sort of religious >aspect to his works, he did grow up in Utah, and probably grew up with a >certain amount of conscious and unconscious religious influences. Card is a Mormon. He served as a missionary in Brazil. You can see it in the later books of the Ender sequence, and it's also evident in the Alvin Maker series, but not as preaching or recruitment speeches - not like Heinlein. But I would not call any of it explicit or subversive - and I'm an atheist. I think Erik is right - it's part of who he is and so it is naturally part of his writing. From ez031929 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 25 11:40:06 2002 From: ez031929 at yahoo.com (Byron Hu) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:40:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <005001c293d9$99156e20$2462fa43@res17vcq> Message-ID: <20021125194006.4459.qmail@web10003.mail.yahoo.com> > I often see Sci-fi/fantasy grouped together at book > stores. If your brother > is interested in the sci-fi side of things, Douglas > Hill wrote some books > years ago (I think they may be out of print, but I > have seen a few around). > The series is called the "Last Legionary." The > titles for the four books > are: > Galactic Warlord > Deathwing Over Veynaa > Day of the Starwind > Planet of the Warlord These books are great, but I think they are out of print, unfortunately... I have been looking for copies for the past few years and if anyone has an idea where to pick them up, I would appreciate it. They should be available at the library, however.... __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus ? Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From davids at kithrup.com Mon Nov 25 11:50:04 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:50:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: (Orca related) Overcast queries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Nov 2002, Gametech wrote: > >Now my first inclination is to take the reference to the 'Furnace' as >it's their equivalent to the 'Sun' or our 'Sol' I think that it only >became apparent to me because the word was capitalized as a proper >name would be (go fig.). But... It could also be a proper name for >the effect of sorcerous pollution or something to have to do with the >use of sorcery. The word furnace can easily be defined as to exhale >or exhaust (pollution in this case) which might be the exact effect >that is caused from using sorcery. > That makes me ponder, at any rate those are my two theories about >it. Is there any other evidence pointing towards either of these >possibilities? > Since no one has yet mentioned it, there's also a paragraph in "Issola", which you might not want to read since it is quite a large honkin' spoiler (so here's some space): "And above it all (quite literally) was this terrible, bright object burning down on everything. I'm not trying to be mysterious -- I had been to the East, and I knew damned well that it was a Furnace, just as we had in the Empire, only here, as out East (and a few places in the far West), it wasn't hidden by a constant overcast. But I had forgotten how painfully bright it was, and how dark were the shadows it caused when it met anything else." It occurs to me that the Overcast should dissapate if you get far enough North or South as well. From casey at trinityhartford.org Mon Nov 25 12:23:17 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:23:17 -0500 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: <913D785F-00A6-11D7-9BD0-0005027712ED@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Erik Berman wrote: > I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure that Card mentioned in his > foreword that he wrote Ender's Game without intending to add any extra > or hidden meaning to it, but instead it just happens to be one of those > books that people will take away some meaning. Soldiers have thought it > was about the tragedy of war, kids about isolation because of > intelligence, I suppose it could be seen as religious allegory too, > though I can't see it myself, I'd like to hear how you though Ender's > game a Christian allegory. I wouldn't dispute any such claim by Card that this is the case, this conviction actually came to me full force yesterday after reading the story "The Polish Boy" that appeared in a collection with the original novella this year. I have long felt that the source of Card's unique voice is his religion. It just became clear to me how much that is reflected in the novel. Perhaps I'm wrong on _explicit_, but I think a strong case can be made for it being allegory, intentional or no. In addition to the elements David Silberstein noted, there are: His parents were allowed to have him despite strict population controls (the escape to Egypt) His maturity of insight at an early age (Jesus in the temple as a young boy) He totally turns upside down all the "rules" of the Battle game. (kicking the moneychangers out of the temple/challenging the teachings of the Pharisees) His army is made up of the rejects from other armies. (sinners and tax collectors) His best lieutenants are made generals of their own armies (scattering of the disciples) His separation from the other kids after the victory, (Three days in the tomb) His discovery of the Hive Queen, and writing the stories of the Hive Queen and the Hegemon which allow a complete recasting of the events and characters (post resurrection appearances) In drawing the links, I wouldn't parallel Peter to Simon, but rather to Judaism, Alai is the Simon in the story, Bean is closest to Paul. I haven't thought about Valentine's role, probably closer to the Church, since there is Petra in the Mary M. role. There are also temptation, wilderness, and baptism elements, but I think I can stop there. These are just the bits that come to mind without having read the novel anytime recently. If I actively tried to I'm sure I could interpret into it anything I wanted to. Casey From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Nov 25 12:15:17 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:15:17 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: <913D785F-00A6-11D7-9BD0-0005027712ED@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20021125201517.GC427@infodancer.org> > There are also temptation, wilderness, and baptism elements, but I think I > can stop there. These are just the bits that come to mind without having > read the novel anytime recently. If I actively tried to I'm sure I could > interpret into it anything I wanted to. Not to rain on your parade, but I think ALL of the examples you cited are stretches -- at best. If your criteria is that low you can draw meaning from just about anything. Ender's Game is a powerful story in its own right. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From feaelin at kemenel.org Mon Nov 25 14:29:39 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 16:29:39 -0600 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Gnosis [mailto:curtis.humes at verizon.net] > Sent: 24 November 2002 16:50 > > >I often see Sci-fi/fantasy grouped together at book stores. If your > brother is interested in the sci-fi side of things, > >Douglas Hill wrote some books years ago (I think they may be out of > print, but I have seen a few around). The series is > >called the "Last Legionary." The titles for the four books are: > >Galactic Warlord Deathwing Over Veynaa > >Day of the Starwind > >Planet of the Warlord > > I know that they are Space opera, but as a kid I really > enjoyed the books by E.E. 'Doc' Smith, the "Lensman" & > "Skylark" series particularly. Try your local library, you > may find them there. Me too. They're very dated and male-centric, though. They're also difficult to find. Our library definitely doesn't have them, and it took some effort on my part to pick up the five skylark books I have. :) From feaelin at kemenel.org Mon Nov 25 14:32:19 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 16:32:19 -0600 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew Bailey [mailto:andrew at networkharmoni.com.au] > Sent: Sunday, 2002 November 24 18:26 > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth > On the scifi front I have to recommend "The Stainless Steel > Rat" series by Harry Harrison. I would suggest Fritz Leiber, > but it may be just a > bit too old. I liked Leiber best when I was in my teens. I'm not sure I would have liked them as much when I was younger. :) From electrictwilight at hotmail.com Mon Nov 25 14:26:10 2002 From: electrictwilight at hotmail.com (H. T.) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 22:26:10 +0000 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth Message-ID: My, my, my, what a mess I have started. *evil grin* Well, thank you all for your many responses, I have enjoyed reading them, and my boss has appreciated me having something to do beside work all morning *grin*. See, after realizing the overwhelming response I decided to create a matrix of the suggestions to see what comes out on top, (I am sort of an anal person and get-off on organizing everything that is not important and making a mess out of everything that is). With 46 suggestions in total -- excluding some that I just completely disagreed with -- so far, in the lead is Heinlien, Patricia Wrede and Norton Juster, closely followed by Susan Cooper, Ursula Le Guin and C.S. Lewis (though I must say that I think Lewis is a little old for an 11 year old, and especially a little old for my step-brother). With your suggestions in mind, it looks like what was going to be a small project of buying a few books here and there and saying "read this" because Harry Potter is far to trendy and it makes me ill how "into it" he is, I now have a little shopping adventure for that ever-so-great marketing paradigm that was created so we could pretend to help boost our economy by purchasing things for people that we could care less about; known as Christmas. Seriously though, thank you all, as every year I struggle with what to buy this kid, and now I have many many wonderful ideas. *smile* Oh, I also Responded to some of the posts so if you're interested, read below: >With that in mind, the initial Vlad Taltos books are probably >perfect for that age -- and they will allow him to grow intellectually as >the books become more complex. I still disagree. In my opinion Steven Brust's works are far to mature at least this 11-year old to understand. I also am not so sure if my father and his wife would agree to my step-brother reading Vlad where he speaks about his "work" so nonchalantly. With my step-brothers active imagination he may not find any wit in it but take it quite seriously. He also might read straight through all of what Vlad internalizes and not understand it completely. Also, while reading some of Steven's works (a little here and there) to my boyfriend the other night (I was deciding whether it was appropriate for my step-brother), he asked me to repeat various paragraphs ? and he's 29, a little dim-witted, but none the less 29. In the end, he said it sounds like "literature" compared to "pulp fiction" and didn?t know if my step-brother would understand it. By boyfriend would know the difference too as when I was acquiring my masters I was reading him what is considered "great literature" all the time. >I am continually thankful and amazed as SKZB's ability to keep writing new >stuff in this world and setting, without it getting >old or going flat. Aces, Steve! :) Yeah, second me on that. >If you're going to introduce the lad to C.S. Lewis, then by all means let >him read Vlad as well, just to balance out Lewis' subversive content :). Emmm, I think Lewis is also probably a little too "old" for him. >No need to be ashamed J.K. Rowling sold her soul to the devil so that her >books were al least agreeable to anyone who ever read them, which >is kinda smart because all you have to do is find a movie producer >.... well then there is the whole not having your soul thing, but >hey people keep doing it and keep entertaining me so I'm not gonna >stop them. (as if I could) So, emmmmm, does anyone out there, (Steven?) know where I go to sell my soul? Do I actually have to go to the 'cross-roads' or can it be accomplished simpler? ... Oh, damn, then there?s that "not having a soul thing," ... but... well let me know and I may consider it further. >I am assuming your step-brother has already been through Harry >Potter, by the way... Oh yes, it was what started this inquiry. He was reading and going on and on about Harry Potter, and I asked him what he likes to read beside Harry Potter, at the same time I was re-reading "Guns of Avalon," he said fantasy, so I let him read some of what I was reading but he became tired with it quickly. I asked him what other authors he likes, and he said that he didn't really know what else was out there. So, after seeing the post "fantasy?, I thought I would ask everyone here what they would suggest for someone in his age range. (Oh, btw, if this seems like I don't know him too well, it's because I do not, in fact beside this conversation, the only thing we could agree upon was that the movie "Labyrinth" was one of our favorite movies, but then, I think Bowie is very cool.) >Honestly, though, it seems at 11 he'd be ready for just about >anything the fantasy/sci-fi section of the library could >throw at him. Hummm, not sure at this. I tried giving him Lovecraft (one of my absolute favorites) and he thought it was too slow moving and he didn't understand all of the words. I tried Orwell next and Bradbury, he didn't understand these because he has no understanding of politics, and Orwell especially just shouldn't be read at face level. I next tried very selective Vonnegut, which he liked, but in my opinion there simply isn't much that Kurt Vonnegut wrote which is appropriate for an 11 year old. I think my father and his wife would hang me by the feet until I come to my senses if I were to give him ?Cats Cradle?. >I would think that many of the other novels being suggested are a >bit beyond the typical 11 year old. Yeah, I agree. >The Hobbit is great - you might even consider reading it to him, >as it has a "grandpa in his rocking chair telling a story to a >circle of children" style. Yes, I know and completely agree. Yet, trying to get this one to sit still unless he has a book or Nintendo in his hands is like ... emmm, well it's impossible. >And you know what I really liked, when I was his age, my subscription to >Analog magazine. Great birthday presents! GREAT IDEA!! >as for Narnia, no denying the allegory, but it's a good story >nonetheless. It's not a book that tries to convert you, it's >just told from an explicitly Christian viewpoint. Hahahahahaha, my father and his wife would LOVE for me to give him something like this, truly, they would think I finally turned to their viewpoints, hahahahhahahaha. >Actually, the first fantasy books I remember reading was _The >Vampire Diaries_ by LJ Smith Are these fantasy? Well, I suppose to say they are not would be like to say Celestia Quinn Yarbo is not Sci-Fi or to classify H.P. Lovecraft as only horror. >I was given the first of Raymond E. Feist's books, Magician, later >released in two volumes in massmarket paper on hard cover for Christmas '82 >when I was 12. I ate it up. Feist seems a little old but maybe not. Then, perhaps you were a mature 12 year old? >Giving an 11 year old Donaldson? Is that legal? *shudder* Re: This and everything else Re: Donaldson -- I think I will avoid giving this to him at all costs... *shudder* _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From feaelin at kemenel.org Mon Nov 25 14:53:01 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 16:53:01 -0600 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantasy for Youth Message-ID: > >> discussion of "fantasy" had began reading fantasy when they were > >> still young I thought > >> > I might ask what is appropriate for a young fantasy reader? > > I found Joel Rosenberg's _Guardian of the Flame_ series to be a > very good and accessible start for young readers (I read them > myself in 4th grade or so). I would have mixed feelings about that one. Some of the scenes are little mature for a young reader. They're nicely handled, I think, but I'd be pretty cautious about recommending them to anyone who has a problem with mature subjects. From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Mon Nov 25 14:57:49 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 16:57:49 -0600 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth References: Message-ID: <3DE2AAED.6070604@attbi.com> Hey, Enjoyed your post. Am a little confused about Narnia being "old" for your stepbrother. I'd say the stuff is aimed at about an 8-year-old. Perhaps you're thinking of some of his other stuff? Mia From electrictwilight at hotmail.com Mon Nov 25 15:02:27 2002 From: electrictwilight at hotmail.com (H. T.) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 23:02:27 +0000 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth Message-ID: >Perhaps you're thinking of some of his other stuff? > >Mia Yes, indeed. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From pgranzeau at cox.net Mon Nov 25 14:47:27 2002 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 17:47:27 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <20021125175442.GC7875@infodancer.org> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20021125101509.01d9b6b0@pop.east.cox.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20021125101509.01d9b6b0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20021125174435.01d95060@pop.east.cox.net> At 11:54 11/25/2002 -0600, Matthew Hunter wrote: >On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 10:16:15AM -0500, "Peter H. Granzeau" > wrote: > > How about Jane Yolen's two "Jenna" books, _Sister Light, Sister Dark_ and > > _White Jenna_? Yolen also edited a series of YA novels, which might turn > > up some good books for kids, as well as authored many more herself. > >Gods, no. That is the ONLY book I have literally torn up and >thrown against the wall. A very atypical response. You obviously don't like Jane Yolen. You shouldn't convert your personal likes and dislikes into a general recommendation, is what I think. You also have never read "The Golden Hawk of Zandraya", by Mike somebody (whose name I have mercifully long since forgotten). -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From pgranzeau at cox.net Mon Nov 25 14:53:21 2002 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 17:53:21 -0500 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20021125174902.01d8ecb0@pop.east.cox.net> At 12:02 11/25/2002 -0500, Casey Rousseau wrote: > > > Wow. People feel strongly about Donaldson! > > > > True. Well, about his *books*. From what little I've seen of him > >Touch?. > > > personally, he's not only a generally nice man, he even expresses all > > the right attitudes (i.e. he agrees with me) in philosophy-of-writing > > discussions. I just can't stand the books he writes. > >I'm curious. A question especially for those who responded strongly to my >recommendation for the Covenant series, how old were you when you read them, >if you recall. I, for example, do not recall the rape scene mentioned by >someone as being at the begining of the first one - Lord Foul's Bane - >although I think I do remember a human sacrifice. It has been many years >since I went back an reread this one. Ususally I'll start with The Illearth >War if I want to dip back into it. I definitely read them before The One >Tree came out in April of '82 which means I was not yet 12 and may have been >only 10 when I started reading these. I have some sort of visceral response to the Donaldson books--so much so, that although I have picked one up and actually read the blurb, I have never been able to force myself to actually take it to the clerk and BUY it. I have about the same reponse when faced with a book by John Norman. With Norman, I can understand why I feel that way. It seems that Donaldson just turns on my squick sensor. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From pgranzeau at cox.net Mon Nov 25 14:57:15 2002 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 17:57:15 -0500 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: <20021125180204.GD7875@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20021125175537.01d94ec0@pop.east.cox.net> At 10:08 11/25/2002 -0800, Dennis Higbee wrote: >On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, Matthew Hunter wrote: > > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 10:36:31AM -0600, David Dyer-Bennet > wrote: > > > "Casey Rousseau" writes: > > > > As for Kurtz, yes, I was explicitly recommending the first two > trilogies. > > > That's about right. Either that or just the first 1. I'd be very > > > doubtful about anything past that, anyway. > > > > That's odd. IMHO they get better, rather than worse. > > Particularly the first trilogy -- it's very rough, obviously an > > early and unpolished set of books. > >This is the consensus among Deryni fans. The author herself has said on >numerous occasions that she'd like to take out a number of elements from >the first trilogy that she only put in because she "thought they had to >be there." I read the first Kurtz novel. For some reason, it turned on my squick sensor, so much that I have avoided reading anything else by her. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From casey at trinityhartford.org Mon Nov 25 15:17:43 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:17:43 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: H.T. responded to my suggestion: > >I was given the first of Raymond E. Feist's books, Magician, later > >released in two volumes in massmarket paper on hard cover for > >Christmas '82 when I was 12. I ate it up. > > Feist seems a little old but maybe not. Then, perhaps you were a > mature 12 year old? Given that I'm the one that suggested Donaldson, yeah, I probably don't work as a model for what to give your step-brother. At twelve I had a paper route so that I could fund my book habit. I bought The One Tree in hard cover when it came out around my 12th birthday. OK, so I'm twisted enough to hold my own on this list, aren't I? :) Casey From mam at theworld.com Mon Nov 25 15:17:13 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:17:13 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <20021125024434.GS1205@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Nov 2002, Matthew Hunter wrote: #Tehanu destroys everything the initial trilogy worked so hard to #build. The recent stuff is somewhere in between. I guess we have different views of "everything the initial trilogy worked so hard to build", although I certainly wouldn't recommend Tehanu to, say, an under-12. -- Mark M. From casey at trinityhartford.org Mon Nov 25 15:21:20 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:21:20 -0500 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20021125175537.01d94ec0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > I read the first Kurtz novel. For some reason, it turned on my squick > sensor, so much that I have avoided reading anything else by her. Yeah my 12-year-old self and you have very different senses of what is squick. FWIW, I started with the Camber trilogy, which several people here apparently liked better. Casey From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Nov 25 15:20:30 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 25 Nov 2002 17:20:30 -0600 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Davis, Iain E." writes: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Gnosis [mailto:curtis.humes at verizon.net] > > Sent: 24 November 2002 16:50 > > > > >I often see Sci-fi/fantasy grouped together at book stores. If your > > brother is interested in the sci-fi side of things, > > >Douglas Hill wrote some books years ago (I think they may be out of > > print, but I have seen a few around). The series is > > >called the "Last Legionary." The titles for the four books are: > > >Galactic Warlord Deathwing Over Veynaa > > >Day of the Starwind > > >Planet of the Warlord > > > > I know that they are Space opera, but as a kid I really > > enjoyed the books by E.E. 'Doc' Smith, the "Lensman" & > > "Skylark" series particularly. Try your local library, you > > may find them there. > > Me too. They're very dated and male-centric, though. They're also > difficult to find. Our library definitely doesn't have them, and it > took some effort on my part to pick up the five skylark books I have. :) Now I'm interested; which previously-unknown skylark book do you have? :-) Okay, I've got multiple copies of most of them too. The *are* in many clear ways male-centric, and at least one friend simply can't read them for that reason. On the other hand, it was in one of the Skylark books that Dorothy insists on strapping on her guns and going with Seaton on a critical mission, and makes him accept it, and makes him acknowledge afterwards that that was where she belonged. Even though they had a young child (left with safe reliable people at the time). -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From mam at theworld.com Mon Nov 25 15:33:55 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:33:55 -0500 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth Message-ID: On 25 Nov 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: #Matthew Hunter writes: #> As for Narnia, no denying the allegory, but it's a good story #> nonetheless. It's not a book that tries to convert you, it's #> just told from an explicitly Christian viewpoint. # #That's what bugged me, it's *not* explicitly christian. It's a #fantasy world, with non-christian fantasy religious elements, which he #whips the covers off at the end and blatantly associates with #christianity. That's what pissed me off about it. Well, yeah. Except that for Lewis, the Christian mythos is absolutely true about the universe. The fair question, as I see it, is: Did Lewis expect the series to hit people this way, or could he reasonably have expected it to? And if so, how did he feel about it? -- Not necessarily questions we can answer. -- Mark A. Mandel From nytemuse at auros.org Mon Nov 25 15:41:22 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:41:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, H. T. wrote: > >Actually, the first fantasy books I remember reading was _The > >Vampire Diaries_ by LJ Smith > > Are these fantasy? Well, I suppose to say they are not would be like to say > Celestia Quinn Yarbo is not Sci-Fi or to classify H.P. Lovecraft as only > horror. Yeah, I'd sure call it fantasy...her arcs involve fey, vampires, psychics, witches, "Shadowmen", ghosts, and shapeshifters. Like a younger Laurell K. Hamilton, without all the sex *chuckle* There are other series, Vampire Diaries happened to be the first I came up with. I have a section on all her books on my site at http://www.crowfire.com/books/ljs/ I'd even say Yarbro is fantasy, albeit maybe too old... "Castle in the Attic" would be great, I'd bet, if he likes Arthurian stuffs and chivalry and knights. Or I also have to add my support for "The Last Unicorn". Everything else I can think of has already been suggested. ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From nytemuse at auros.org Mon Nov 25 15:43:51 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:43:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20021125174435.01d95060@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > At 11:54 11/25/2002 -0600, Matthew Hunter wrote: > >On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 10:16:15AM -0500, "Peter H. Granzeau" > > wrote: > > > How about Jane Yolen's two "Jenna" books, _Sister Light, Sister Dark_ and > > > _White Jenna_? Yolen also edited a series of YA novels, which might turn > > > up some good books for kids, as well as authored many more herself. > > > >Gods, no. That is the ONLY book I have literally torn up and > >thrown against the wall. > > A very atypical response. You obviously don't like Jane Yolen. You > shouldn't convert your personal likes and dislikes into a general > recommendation, is what I think. Actually, I read this as more of a criticism of _SLSD_ and _WJ_. I'm not saying I agree with the crit, but I do recognize that those 2 aren't her best. If I was going to give someone new to fantasy and stuff Yolen, I'd give the Dragon books, which I think are much better. I read _SLSD_ and _WJ_ b/c I enjoy Amazon-esque adventure stories. The interludes and history bits bothered me a bit, but still somewhat enjoyed them. I didn't mention them b/c I agree they're not appropriate for a neophyte. ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Nov 25 15:36:23 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 17:36:23 -0600 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20021125174435.01d95060@pop.east.cox.net> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20021125101509.01d9b6b0@pop.east.cox.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20021125101509.01d9b6b0@pop.east.cox.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20021125174435.01d95060@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <20021125233623.GD427@infodancer.org> On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 05:47:27PM -0500, "Peter H. Granzeau" wrote: > At 11:54 11/25/2002 -0600, Matthew Hunter wrote: > >On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 10:16:15AM -0500, "Peter H. Granzeau" > > wrote: > >> How about Jane Yolen's two "Jenna" books, _Sister Light, Sister Dark_ and > >> _White Jenna_? Yolen also edited a series of YA novels, which might turn > >> up some good books for kids, as well as authored many more herself. > >Gods, no. That is the ONLY book I have literally torn up and > >thrown against the wall. > A very atypical response. You obviously don't like Jane Yolen. You > shouldn't convert your personal likes and dislikes into a general > recommendation, is what I think. I was *disgusted* with Jane Yolen. I got less than 3 chapters in and already, by that point, the cliches had piled up higher than I could stand. The only other books that came close to that reaction were Eddings (after 12 books) and the Wizard's First Rule horror. Eddings was at least enjoyable to read, until he realized he was writing the same book over and over. WFR I went into knowing it would be bad, and I still barely lasted 10 chapters. Neither of the latter got thrown against the wall. SLSD stands out as uniquely bad in my experience. Since a recommendation thread is all about opinions, and we only have personal opinions, I don't see any problem expressing my dismay at this suggestion. Particularly since I flatter myself by thinking that I can distinguish between "I don't like this book personally" and "this book sucks", and the book in question was firmly in the latter category. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Nov 25 15:42:10 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 17:42:10 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20021125174902.01d8ecb0@pop.east.cox.net> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20021125174902.01d8ecb0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <20021125234210.GE427@infodancer.org> On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 05:53:21PM -0500, "Peter H. Granzeau" wrote: > At 12:02 11/25/2002 -0500, Casey Rousseau wrote: > I have some sort of visceral response to the Donaldson books--so much so, > that although I have picked one up and actually read the blurb, I have > never been able to force myself to actually take it to the clerk and BUY > it. I have about the same reponse when faced with a book by John > Norman. With Norman, I can understand why I feel that way. It seems that > Donaldson just turns on my squick sensor. ^^^^^^ You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means. (Not for kids) http://www.mich.com/~pnsnv/othershit/squick.html -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Nov 25 16:02:28 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 25 Nov 2002 18:02:28 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: <20021125234210.GE427@infodancer.org> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20021125174902.01d8ecb0@pop.east.cox.net> <20021125234210.GE427@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Matthew Hunter writes: > On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 05:53:21PM -0500, "Peter H. Granzeau" wrote: > > At 12:02 11/25/2002 -0500, Casey Rousseau wrote: > > I have some sort of visceral response to the Donaldson books--so much so, > > that although I have picked one up and actually read the blurb, I have > > never been able to force myself to actually take it to the clerk and BUY > > it. I have about the same reponse when faced with a book by John > > Norman. With Norman, I can understand why I feel that way. It seems that > > Donaldson just turns on my squick sensor. > ^^^^^^ > > You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think > it means. > > (Not for kids) > http://www.mich.com/~pnsnv/othershit/squick.html That is not the commonly-used definition of the term, though the act described there *would* squick most people. It's a much more general term, meaning pretty much "that allegedly sexual activity disgusts me". Many people feel that way about Gor. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From nytemuse at auros.org Mon Nov 25 16:13:12 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 16:13:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 25 Nov 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > > Norman. With Norman, I can understand why I feel that way. It seems that > > > Donaldson just turns on my squick sensor. > > ^^^^^^ > > You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think > > it means. > > (Not for kids) > > http://www.mich.com/~pnsnv/othershit/squick.html > > That is not the commonly-used definition of the term, though the act > described there *would* squick most people. > It's a much more general term, meaning pretty much "that allegedly > sexual activity disgusts me". Many people feel that way about Gor. Actually, that's a limited definition. The most basic definition of squick is something that disgusts or puts someone on the edge of heebie-jeebies. If something squicks you, the thought of it makes you feel just not right, like scat play for some people, or needles (used in a non-sexual manner). ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From nthuleen at students.wisc.edu Mon Nov 25 16:15:59 2002 From: nthuleen at students.wisc.edu (Nancy Thuleen) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:15:59 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20021125174902.01d8ecb0@pop.east.cox.net> <20021125234210.GE427@infodancer.org> Message-ID: At 18:02 -0600 25.11.2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > That is not the commonly-used definition of the term, though the act > described there *would* squick most people. > > It's a much more general term, meaning pretty much "that allegedly > sexual activity disgusts me". Many people feel that way about Gor. That was my understanding of the term as well -- which made me puzzle about why someone would find Katherine Kurtz "squicky". There's very little sex of any kind in her books, especially the early ones. Or am I forgetting something? Anyway, for the record, I'm squicked by Donaldson as well, don't really like Card that much, but have loved nearly all of the other suggestions (LeGuin, Lewis, Leiber, etc). Has McKillip been mentioned? The Riddle-Master trilogy would be a great choice, I would think. And although they're completely EFP, as a young teen I did enjoy those Stasheff "Warlock" books, though I can't really read them these days. :) I also really loved the Gandalara cycle by Randall Garrett, but I think those are pretty hard to find now. Is he too young for Douglas Adams? I was reading that by 6th grade, or 7th at the very latest. - Nancy. From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Nov 25 15:59:57 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 17:59:57 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20021125174902.01d8ecb0@pop.east.cox.net> <20021125234210.GE427@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20021125235957.GF427@infodancer.org> On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 06:02:28PM -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Matthew Hunter writes: > > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 05:53:21PM -0500, "Peter H. Granzeau" wrote: > > > At 12:02 11/25/2002 -0500, Casey Rousseau wrote: > > > I have some sort of visceral response to the Donaldson books--so much so, > > > that although I have picked one up and actually read the blurb, I have > > > never been able to force myself to actually take it to the clerk and BUY > > > it. I have about the same reponse when faced with a book by John > > > Norman. With Norman, I can understand why I feel that way. It seems that > > > Donaldson just turns on my squick sensor. > > ^^^^^^ > > You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think > > it means. > > > > http://www.mich.com/~pnsnv/othershit/squick.html > > That is not the commonly-used definition of the term, though the act > described there *would* squick most people. It is the original definition, which was then adopted for lesser acts. > It's a much more general term, meaning pretty much "that allegedly > sexual activity disgusts me". Many people feel that way about Gor. I am aware of this. However, I was objecting to being "squicked" by Donaldson without even reading past the blurb, much less by anything that happens in the first Deryni trilogy. There's more than enough in Donaldson to squick a small army, but applying it to the first Deryni trilogy and the back-cover blurb of Donaldson weakens one of the few remaining powerfully evocative words. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From zizban at adelphia.net Mon Nov 25 16:20:24 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 19:20:24 -0500 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Did anybody mention the Alvin maker books? Might be too 'deep' for a young teenager but maybe someone would like to try them. ----- Buy my book! http://homepage.mac.com/zizban From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Nov 25 16:22:52 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 16:22:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth Message-ID: <200211260022.gAQ0MmG24306@phys-hanwk14-2.ebay.sun.com> > or needles (used in a non-sexual manner). No, but the reverse is true... Eep! Chris (who's ducking back into work now...:) "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From mam at theworld.com Mon Nov 25 16:37:31 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 19:37:31 -0500 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: <20021125234210.GE427@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, Matthew Hunter wrote: #> At 12:02 11/25/2002 -0500, Casey Rousseau wrote: #> Donaldson just turns on my squick sensor. # ^^^^^^ # #You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think #it means. As a matter of fact, the people I know who actually use that word, and >from whose use I learned it, use it in a way very close to Casey's use, which the definition on that website (which I have seen before) has almost nothing to do with. To the best of my knowledge, "squick", in the usage of people who USE the word, as opposed to inventing oddball definitions for words they don't use (cf. _The Meaning of Liff_, Douglas Adams & somebody else), is an experiencer-as-object verb meaning approximately 'disgust, nauseate; turn off or repel (i.e., cause [someone] to feel turned off or repelled]'. By "experiencer-as-object" I mean that the syntax is like that of "disgust" rather than "hate": That squicks me. GRAMMATICAL That disgusts me. " I hate that. " I squick that. UNGRAMMATICAL Its original sense *may* have been restricted to sexual practices and related subjects: 1. made-up example: You can do that with your other friends if you like, but not with me. It squicks me. 2. real example: KNOCK KNOCK (voices from inside): Who is it? And are they squicked by nudity? (voice from peephole): Oh, it's [name]. (visitor): No, it doesn't squick me. The word is also used in contexts without sexual reference, which *may* be an expansion of its domain. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Mon Nov 25 16:38:59 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 19:38:59 -0500 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: <20021125235957.GF427@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, Matthew Hunter wrote: #It is the original definition, which was then adopted for lesser #acts. I am professionally interested. Can you give me a citation for this? -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel, Ph.D., working linguist From electrictwilight at hotmail.com Mon Nov 25 16:47:12 2002 From: electrictwilight at hotmail.com (H. T.) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 00:47:12 +0000 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth Message-ID: >Yeah, I'd sure call it fantasy...her arcs involve fey, vampires, psychics, >witches, "Shadowmen", ghosts, and shapeshifters. Like a >younger Laurell K. Hamilton, without all the sex *chuckle* >There are other series, Vampire Diaries happened to be the first I came up > >I'd even say Yarbro is fantasy, albeit maybe too old... Humm, interesting. You are the second person to ever have mentioned this series to me, before it was my (emmm, my paternal? blood-related? actual? -- someone please give me a better word for this, as I am at a loss right now) brother when I was first beginning to read "darker" (to use a word my father might)-fiction. My brother recommended it as light-gothic style-"whatever you want to call non-disgusting"-horror, as at the time that was where my interest lied. Of course though, being that my brother recommended it, and even worse my YOUNGER brother recommended it, I never gave it a chance. I think the first things I found to my liking were Yarbro, McKee's "Unicorn Tapestry", followed by Anne Rice *ducking and cringing before someone slaps me for this last one*, but then I was a very strange 14 year old. Though, now that the "adolescent competition" between my brother and I is over, and you recommend it, (even if as something for a younger person), and he had recommended it (and I have learnt NEVER to question something my brother recommends because he is pretty much always right about everything), perhaps I will go back and give it a shot and then pass it on to my step-brother. If nothing else, it may be something to read after studying and before bed when my mind is too full of information to comprehend much of anything. Thanks. =) _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Nov 25 16:59:57 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:59:57 -0600 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20021126005957.GA3780@infodancer.org> On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 10:26:10PM +0000, "H. T." wrote: > >With that in mind, the initial Vlad Taltos books are probably > >perfect for that age -- and they will allow him to grow intellectually as > >the books become more complex. > > I still disagree. In my opinion Steven Brust's works are far to mature at > least this 11-year old to understand. I also am not so sure if my father > and his wife would agree to my step-brother reading Vlad where he speaks > about his "work" so nonchalantly. With my step-brothers active imagination > he may not find any wit in it but take it quite seriously. He also might > read straight through all of what Vlad internalizes and not understand it > completely. By the "initial" books, I meant Jhereg and Yendi, which are certainly written in the mold of young-adult adventure story. There are far, far, far, far worse sources of casual death and graphic violence in this world, even accessible to kids, and most of those don't come with inherent maturity-boosters as Vlad's later understanding of consequences and morality provides. > Also, while reading some of Steven's works (a little here and there) to my > boyfriend the other night (I was deciding whether it was appropriate for my > step-brother), he asked me to repeat various paragraphs ? and he's 29, a > little dim-witted, but none the less 29. In the end, he said it sounds like > "literature" compared to "pulp fiction" and didn?t know if my step-brother > would understand it. By boyfriend would know the difference too as when I > was acquiring my masters I was reading him what is considered "great > literature" all the time. This varies widely depending on the books. Later Vlad books, Paarfi novels, Freedom and Necessity, The Gypsy, etc, all provide a much more literary feel that doesn't necessarily contradict the initial Vlad books as suitable. > >If you're going to introduce the lad to C.S. Lewis, then by all means let > >him read Vlad as well, just to balance out Lewis' subversive content :). > Emmm, I think Lewis is also probably a little too "old" for him. He is at the age that the Narnia books were intended for. Wait too much longer for the "mature young adult" type books and you will miss the window where they are enjoyable. > >No need to be ashamed J.K. Rowling sold her soul to the devil so that her > >books were al least agreeable to anyone who ever read them, which > >is kinda smart because all you have to do is find a movie producer > >.... well then there is the whole not having your soul thing, but > >hey people keep doing it and keep entertaining me so I'm not gonna > >stop them. (as if I could) > So, emmmmm, does anyone out there, (Steven?) know where I go to sell my > soul? Do I actually have to go to the 'cross-roads' or can it be > accomplished simpler? ... Oh, damn, then there?s that "not having a soul > thing," ... but... well let me know and I may consider it further. For the sum of... ONE... MILLION... DOLLARS... I have a ritual that will enable you to summon the Devil. After that, it's up to you. Cash up front, no refunds, small unmarked bills only please. > >Honestly, though, it seems at 11 he'd be ready for just about > >anything the fantasy/sci-fi section of the library could > >throw at him. > Hummm, not sure at this. I tried giving him Lovecraft (one of my absolute > favorites) and he thought it was too slow moving and he didn't understand > all of the words. You gave him LOVECRAFT and you are complaining that he's too young for CS Lewis and Vlad??!?!?!?!!! -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From mam at theworld.com Mon Nov 25 17:19:48 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:19:48 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, H. T. wrote: #series to me, before it was my (emmm, my paternal? blood-related? actual? -- #someone please give me a better word for this, as I am at a loss right now) #brother when I was first beginning to read "darker" (to use a word my father What concept are you trying to express? If you and he have both parents in common, he is your brother, plain and simple. If you want, you can specify "genetic" brother to distinguish >from adoptive or foster or metaphorical (as in, e.g., "all men are..." or "blood ...") brother. If you and he have only one parent in common, he is your half-brother. You can say "maternal" or "paternal" half-brother to be specific. My extended family has some unusual extensions, like our foster son's (maternal adoptive) half-brother's (maternal) half-brother. Foster son calls this relative his quarter-brother. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Mon Nov 25 17:21:02 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:21:02 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <20021126005957.GA3780@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, Matthew Hunter wrote: #> Hummm, not sure at this. I tried giving him Lovecraft (one of my absolute #> favorites) and he thought it was too slow moving and he didn't understand #> all of the words. # #You gave him LOVECRAFT and you are complaining that he's too #young for CS Lewis and Vlad??!?!?!?!!! Oingggg!!!! Doubled and redoubled, in spades!! -- Mark A. Mandel fan of Gonzur the Mediocre Old One From electrictwilight at hotmail.com Mon Nov 25 17:23:18 2002 From: electrictwilight at hotmail.com (H. T.) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 01:23:18 +0000 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth Message-ID: >You are looking for a word for your brother? > >Is it maybe half-brother? That's the one for if you share one parent, but >not both. > >Mia No, the type you are completely related to by mother and father, to distinguish from "step-brother". _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From dar at horusinc.com Mon Nov 25 17:26:08 2002 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 19:26:08 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > #Matthew Hunter writes: > #> As for Narnia, no denying the allegory, but it's a good story > #> nonetheless. It's not a book that tries to convert you, it's > #> just told from an explicitly Christian viewpoint. > # > #That's what bugged me, it's *not* explicitly christian. It's a > #fantasy world, with non-christian fantasy religious elements, which he > #whips the covers off at the end and blatantly associates with > #christianity. That's what pissed me off about it. > > Well, yeah. Except that for Lewis, the Christian mythos is absolutely > true about the universe. The fair question, as I see it, is: Did Lewis > expect the series to hit people this way, or could he reasonably have > expected it to? And if so, how did he feel about it? -- Not necessarily > questions we can answer. The same argument could be made about LOTR, it's certainly as Christian as Narnia is... The argument can be made that both T. and L. were Christian mystics (not in the occult sense but in the religious one) and were quite aware of what they were doing. David From dar at horusinc.com Mon Nov 25 17:26:12 2002 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 19:26:12 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On 25 Nov 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > > > Norman. With Norman, I can understand why I feel that way. > It seems that > > > > Donaldson just turns on my squick sensor. > > > ^^^^^^ > > > You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think > > > it means. > > > (Not for kids) > > > http://www.mich.com/~pnsnv/othershit/squick.html > > > > That is not the commonly-used definition of the term, though the act > > described there *would* squick most people. > > It's a much more general term, meaning pretty much "that allegedly > > sexual activity disgusts me". Many people feel that way about Gor. > > Actually, that's a limited definition. The most basic definition of > squick is something that disgusts or puts someone on the edge of > heebie-jeebies. If something squicks you, the thought of it makes you > feel just not right, like scat play for some people, or needles (used in a > non-sexual manner). Hmmmm... I don't know about that... Whenever I use, or have seen squick used it has a sexual connotation. I'll toss this into the Delta-Green mailing list, where the term get's used with a cerain amount of regularity. David From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Nov 25 17:08:10 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 19:08:10 -0600 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: <20021126005957.GA3780@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20021126010810.GD3780@infodancer.org> On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 08:21:02PM -0500, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, Matthew Hunter wrote: > #> Hummm, not sure at this. I tried giving him Lovecraft (one of my absolute > #> favorites) and he thought it was too slow moving and he didn't understand > #> all of the words. > #You gave him LOVECRAFT and you are complaining that he's too > #young for CS Lewis and Vlad??!?!?!?!!! > Oingggg!!!! Doubled and redoubled, in spades!! It's been established in private email that we are actually trying to select books to suit the maturity level of the parents. :) -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From electrictwilight at hotmail.com Mon Nov 25 17:26:50 2002 From: electrictwilight at hotmail.com (H. T.) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 01:26:50 +0000 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth Message-ID: >So what you are really looking for is not a book to fit his >maturity level, but a book which fits the maturity level of his >parents. Oh yes, most defiantly, to defy my father would not be a good thing. Though, when I decided to go against what they would desire he still wasn't mature enough to comprehend it. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From electrictwilight at hotmail.com Mon Nov 25 17:29:48 2002 From: electrictwilight at hotmail.com (H. T.) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 01:29:48 +0000 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth Message-ID: >It's been established in private email that we are actually >trying to select books to suit the maturity level of the parents. >:) Oops, sorry, I thought I also made sure to add the message board to the e-mail address. *shurg* It's been a very long day. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From electrictwilight at hotmail.com Mon Nov 25 17:20:43 2002 From: electrictwilight at hotmail.com (H. T.) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 01:20:43 +0000 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth Message-ID: > >You gave him LOVECRAFT and you are complaining that he's too >young for CS Lewis and Vlad??!?!?!?!!! > I know! I know! This is how I know for positive that my father and fathers wife would KILL ME if I gave him anything to mature. I believe they told me as they ripped it out of his hands while he read it aloud. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From rone at ennui.org Mon Nov 25 18:12:55 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:12:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: from Chris Turkel at "Nov 25, 2002 07:20:24 pm" Message-ID: <20021126021255.09B4726E2F@boredom.ennui.org> Chris Turkel writes: Did anybody mention the Alvin maker books? Might be too 'deep' for a young teenager but maybe someone would like to try them. I don't know about 'deep', but i read the first two and had a hard time swallowing the two-dimensional bad guys who were just so evil and if you didn't notice how evil they were why the author would make sure to LET YOU KNOW AGAIN AND AGAIN and who would want to be mean to this magical, sweet boy? Feh. rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Nov 25 17:55:43 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 19:55:43 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20021126015543.GA7051@infodancer.org> On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 07:26:08PM -0600, David Rodemaker wrote: > > Well, yeah. Except that for Lewis, the Christian mythos is absolutely > > true about the universe. The fair question, as I see it, is: Did Lewis > > expect the series to hit people this way, or could he reasonably have > > expected it to? And if so, how did he feel about it? -- Not necessarily > > questions we can answer. > The same argument could be made about LOTR, it's certainly as Christian as > Narnia is... Um, no. Narnia is very much a direct analogy, and the author admits it. Tolkien in LOTR denies any allegory along those lines, and it's a much weaker connection. I don't deny there are some parallels, but Narnia is several large steps closer to Christianity than Middle-Earth. > The argument can be made that both T. and L. were Christian mystics (not in > the occult sense but in the religious one) and were quite aware of what they > were doing. Tolkien was certainly such, but their works are not necessarily the same in that respect. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From agrajag at dragaera.net Mon Nov 25 18:48:59 2002 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 25 Nov 2002 21:48:59 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1038278939.1164.21.camel@loiosh> On Mon, 2002-11-25 at 17:26, H. T. wrote: > > Hummm, not sure at this. I tried giving him Lovecraft (one of my absolute > favorites) and he thought it was too slow moving and he didn't understand > all of the words. This last bit isn't necessarily that bad of a thing. One of reasons a lot of parents and educators like to see kids reading is that it expands their vocabulary. And that only happens if they read books with a few words they don't understand. I can remember when I was a little older than your step-brother and I used to always read with a big dictionary right next to me. From zizban at adelphia.net Mon Nov 25 18:51:24 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 21:51:24 -0500 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: <20021126021255.09B4726E2F@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On Monday, November 25, 2002, at 09:12 PM, definitely what wrote: > Chris Turkel writes: > Did anybody mention the Alvin maker books? Might be too 'deep' for a > young teenager but maybe someone would like to try them. > > I don't know about 'deep', but i read the first two and had a hard > time swallowing the two-dimensional bad guys who were just so evil and > if you didn't notice how evil they were why the author would make sure > to LET YOU KNOW AGAIN AND AGAIN and who would want to be mean to this > magical, sweet boy? Feh. > I enjoyed the books but there is a distinct lack of bad guys besides some kind of ever present Unmaker. These books are a straight Mormon allegory, Card says. --- "We cannot accomplish great things - just little ones, with great love." -Mother Teresa From dar at horusinc.com Mon Nov 25 18:54:10 2002 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:54:10 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: <20021126015543.GA7051@infodancer.org> Message-ID: > On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 07:26:08PM -0600, David Rodemaker > wrote: > > > Well, yeah. Except that for Lewis, the Christian mythos is absolutely > > > true about the universe. The fair question, as I see it, is: Did Lewis > > > expect the series to hit people this way, or could he reasonably have > > > expected it to? And if so, how did he feel about it? -- Not > necessarily > > > questions we can answer. > > The same argument could be made about LOTR, it's certainly as > Christian as > > Narnia is... > > Um, no. Narnia is very much a direct analogy, and the author > admits it. Tolkien in LOTR denies any allegory along those > lines, and it's a much weaker connection. > > I don't deny there are some parallels, but Narnia is several > large steps closer to Christianity than Middle-Earth. Bah. Denial does not equate actuality. The amount of mystical Christian allegory in LOTR is quite high, and any degree of 'less/more' really starts to hinge on the intentional/unintentional axis. Besides, while Narnia is a somewhat direct analogy, and explicitly so, of the NT, that does not mean that LOTR *isn't* a less explicit but no less direct analogy. IIRC, his denials mainly tendered to the question that LOTR was written as a commentary of WWII. (That is based btw, on reading done *many* years ago of his letters, etc. Specific denials of Ring=Nukes and a specific comment comes to mind along the obverse, 'Gandalf is an angel') I can't think of medium-to-large 'sized' concept from Christianity that I cannot find without difficulty in LOTR. David From AkodoBob at sbcglobal.net Mon Nov 25 19:00:32 2002 From: AkodoBob at sbcglobal.net (Erik Berman) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 19:00:32 -0800 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: <20021125235957.GF427@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <3A316E2F-00EB-11D7-BB6D-0005027712ED@sbcglobal.net> On Monday, November 25, 2002, at 03:59 PM, Matthew Hunter wrote: >>> You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think >>> it means. >>> >>> http://www.mich.com/~pnsnv/othershit/squick.html >> >> That is not the commonly-used definition of the term, though the act >> described there *would* squick most people. > > It is the original definition, which was then adopted for lesser > acts. This is far more disturbing than I wish to ponder. AkodoBob -far too disturbed to make up an amusing quote From AkodoBob at sbcglobal.net Mon Nov 25 19:15:22 2002 From: AkodoBob at sbcglobal.net (Erik Berman) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 19:15:22 -0800 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <20021126005957.GA3780@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <4CA46AAA-00ED-11D7-BB6D-0005027712ED@sbcglobal.net> On Monday, November 25, 2002, at 04:59 PM, Matthew Hunter wrote: > >>> Honestly, though, it seems at 11 he'd be ready for just about >>> anything the fantasy/sci-fi section of the library could >>> throw at him. >> Hummm, not sure at this. I tried giving him Lovecraft (one of my >> absolute >> favorites) and he thought it was too slow moving and he didn't >> understand >> all of the words. > > You gave him LOVECRAFT and you are complaining that he's too > young for CS Lewis and Vlad??!?!?!?!!! > Come on! All Lovecraft has is a few insane people, gibbering faceless horrors, and High Priest Cthuthu manipulating the world. What's the harm in that. I bet old Morollan's got a beat up copy of the Necronomicon in his study somewhere. AkodoBob -Cthulhu F'thagn what a wonderful phrase From jjm57 at cornell.edu Mon Nov 25 19:56:49 2002 From: jjm57 at cornell.edu (Jeremy Michel) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 22:56:49 -0500 Subject: A different Track Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021125225209.0263ef50@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> So i got 84 messages about youth fantasy today (and i will admit that i've contributed a bit myself in days past) but this is getting rediculous, i'm sorry i can't keep up anymore I prepose we start a new conversation. -ME From agrajag at dragaera.net Mon Nov 25 20:13:31 2002 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 25 Nov 2002 23:13:31 -0500 Subject: A question on FHYA Message-ID: <1038284011.1161.35.camel@loiosh> I've been rereading FHYA and noticed something a little odd. Near the end of the book, the last straw that causes Adron to go from waiting to attacking is learning of the arrest of his daughter. At the time Aerich comments on how he'd like to know the details of the arrest, and Adron confers and says that he will ask when he storms the city. However, earlier in the book it is noted that Adron and Aliera are capable of psionic communication with each other. So, this leads me to wonder, why didn't Aliera just tell her father what happened? And why didn't Adron try to communicate with Aliera to ask her? As best I can figure, Aliera hoped her arrest would lead to Adron taking action. That's why she was so nonchalant about Khaavren coming to arrest her. As for Adron, I suppose we can just assume that he was so outraged at what happened that he didn't think to, or want to[1], find out what really happened. I'm also somewhat surprised that Paarfi didn't predict this possible question from the reader and try to answer it for us.[2] Does anyone else have any possible explinations for why Adron and Aliera didn't communicate with one another following her arrest? Jag [1] There was a comment on how Adron was purposefully keeping some of his 'steam' in so that he would attack the Emporer. [2] Unless he did it in about the last 50 pages of the book, in which case I'm going to feel really stupid once I get to that part again. From AkodoBob at sbcglobal.net Mon Nov 25 20:20:05 2002 From: AkodoBob at sbcglobal.net (Erik Berman) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:20:05 -0800 Subject: A question on FHYA In-Reply-To: <1038284011.1161.35.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: <572E263C-00F6-11D7-BB6D-0005027712ED@sbcglobal.net> On Monday, November 25, 2002, at 08:13 PM, Jag wrote: > I've been rereading FHYA and noticed something a little odd. Near the > end of the book, the last straw that causes Adron to go from waiting to > attacking is learning of the arrest of his daughter. At the time Aerich > comments on how he'd like to know the details of the arrest, and Adron > confers and says that he will ask when he storms the city. > > However, earlier in the book it is noted that Adron and Aliera are > capable of psionic communication with each other. So, this leads me to > wonder, why didn't Aliera just tell her father what happened? And why > didn't Adron try to communicate with Aliera to ask her? > > As best I can figure, Aliera hoped her arrest would lead to Adron taking > action. That's why she was so nonchalant about Khaavren coming to > arrest her. As for Adron, I suppose we can just assume that he was so > outraged at what happened that he didn't think to, or want to[1], find > out what really happened. > > I'm also somewhat surprised that Paarfi didn't predict this possible > question from the reader and try to answer it for us.[2] > > Does anyone else have any possible explinations for why Adron and Aliera > didn't communicate with one another following her arrest? I haven't read FHYA for a while, but maybe he wanted to know the offical side of the arrest rather than just Aliera's. On the other hand, since there have been advances in sorcerery since then, maybe psionic communication has advanced too, and in FHYA it requires some sort of effort to be receptive to communication AkodoBob -It is not my ken to know the will of the Author, only to obey and buy more books From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Mon Nov 25 23:14:36 2002 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 23:14:36 -0800 Subject: *frustrated* Message-ID: <200211252314.AA1687159432@amish2000.com> Well, Paarfi's words are mutating on the pages of my books again, so I can't find the quote I want, but -- "So, is Zerika Tortaalik-n-Noima's granddaughter, or what?" Thank you and good night. ? MJ From agrajag at dragaera.net Mon Nov 25 20:42:50 2002 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 25 Nov 2002 23:42:50 -0500 Subject: *frustrated* In-Reply-To: <200211252314.AA1687159432@amish2000.com> References: <200211252314.AA1687159432@amish2000.com> Message-ID: <1038285770.1161.38.camel@loiosh> On Tue, 2002-11-26 at 02:14, M J wrote: > Well, Paarfi's words are mutating on the pages of my books again, > so I can't find the quote I want, but -- > > "So, is Zerika Tortaalik-n-Noima's granddaughter, or what?" I don't believe so. At one point in FHYA, there is a member of the court from the House of the Phoenix who mentions to Khaavren that his wife is about to have a child and wonders if they should stay in the city or not, and Khaavren urges them to leave as soon as possible. I believe that Zerika is that child. I can't remember her parent's names though. If I can find that part of the book again, I'll email it to the list. From tyan at twcny.rr.com Mon Nov 25 20:43:53 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 23:43:53 -0500 Subject: Squick [was: Beginning Fantasy for Youth] In-Reply-To: (Mark A Mandel's message of "Mon, 25 Nov 2002 19:37:31 -0500") References: Message-ID: Mark A Mandel writes: > On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, Matthew Hunter wrote: > > #> At 12:02 11/25/2002 -0500, Casey Rousseau wrote: Actually, I think it was Pete Granzeau. > #> Donaldson just turns on my squick sensor. > # ^^^^^^ > # > #You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think > #it means. > > As a matter of fact, the people I know who actually use that word, and > from whose use I learned it, use it in a way very close to Casey's use, > which the definition on that website (which I have seen before) has > almost nothing to do with. > > To the best of my knowledge, "squick", in the usage of people who USE > the word, as opposed to inventing oddball definitions for words they > don't use (cf. _The Meaning of Liff_, Douglas Adams & somebody else), is > an experiencer-as-object verb meaning approximately 'disgust, nauseate; > turn off or repel (i.e., cause [someone] to feel turned off or > repelled]'. -snip- My impression was that "squick" was coined on alt.sex or alt.sex.bondage roughly around the 1990s (but maybe that was only where I saw it first) to refer to sexual things that were squicky. I think the story goes that a term was desired and that was a canonical (for some value of "canonical") example, so "squick" was born because it is onomatopoe(t)ic for that act. It is possible that the term was invented, and then people wanted a canonical example, and s[censored]-fucking was the winner because it was so squicky and had the benefit of having "squick" be onomatopoe(t)ic for it. Its meaning then became more general, not necessarily related to things sexual. So much for my fallible memory of fallible folklore. Let's see if we can get some concrete evidence. Googling for "squick" on alt.sex yields a post on 1991/9/29 by Richard Chandler, where he refers to "the a.s.b [alt.sex.bondage] term Squick" http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=28E385CB.6B2D%40intercon.com Googling for "squick OR squicks OR squicking OR squicked" on alt.sex.bondage for dates up through the end of May 1991 didn't yield anything terribly definitive about its origins. However, Googling on that date range suggests that its appearance on Usenet was in alt.sex.bondage: 22 hits for alt.sex.bondage, 0 hits for alt.sex. There were a total of 37 total "hits". Most non-ASB hits were in alt.tasteless; Alt.sex/ASB regular STella used it once in rec.pets; the other "hits" appear to be false positives, e.g. "sQuick" in comp.sys.mac, or "squicked the tent" in rec.arts.movies. I believe Google's archives are pretty spotty when you get back that far, so it's not clear to me how much confidence should be put in the search results, but I'd say it looks pretty likely that "squick" got its start on Usenet in ASB. - tky From seanp at ea.com Mon Nov 25 20:50:00 2002 From: seanp at ea.com (Penney, Sean) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:50:00 -0800 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth Message-ID: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F59529@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> David said: >I can't think of medium-to-large 'sized' concept from Christianity that I >cannot find without difficulty in LOTR. Or practically any form of heroic fiction, if you sweep broadly enough. From agrajag at dragaera.net Mon Nov 25 20:50:42 2002 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 25 Nov 2002 23:50:42 -0500 Subject: *frustrated* In-Reply-To: <1038285770.1161.38.camel@loiosh> References: <200211252314.AA1687159432@amish2000.com> <1038285770.1161.38.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: <1038286242.1164.46.camel@loiosh> On Mon, 2002-11-25 at 23:42, Jag wrote: > On Tue, 2002-11-26 at 02:14, M J wrote: > > Well, Paarfi's words are mutating on the pages of my books again, > > so I can't find the quote I want, but -- > > > > "So, is Zerika Tortaalik-n-Noima's granddaughter, or what?" > > I don't believe so. At one point in FHYA, there is a member of the > court from the House of the Phoenix who mentions to Khaavren that his > wife is about to have a child and wonders if they should stay in the > city or not, and Khaavren urges them to leave as soon as possible. I > believe that Zerika is that child. I can't remember her parent's names > though. If I can find that part of the book again, I'll email it to the > list. > Found it! Roughly page 320 from the FHYA paperback. Khaavren is talking with Lord Vernoi who has wedded Princess Loudin, the Phoenix Heir. It only makes since the Zerika would be the daughter of the previous Phoenix Heir. However, this does lead to an interesting question. If Zerika is the only Phoenix remaining (as I believe it is mentioned in a few of the Vlad novels), then how will the House of the Phoenix survive until the Cycle turns to them again. I think if a House were eliminated now that the Cycle has been so well established[1], there would be great problems. I do not believe a cross-breed would be accepted as Heir to the house, so I only see one way for Zerika to produce a viable heir. That is the same way Adron produced Aliera (who was Heir once upon a time), with a God(dess). [1] At one point Sethra mentions that originally there were more than 17 Houses or breeds of Dragaerans, but the rest died off. Jag From davids at kithrup.com Mon Nov 25 20:51:20 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:51:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, H. T. wrote: > >> >>You gave him LOVECRAFT and you are complaining that he's too >>young for CS Lewis and Vlad??!?!?!?!!! >> >I know! I know! This is how I know for positive that my father and >fathers wife would KILL ME if I gave him anything to mature. I >believe they told me as they ripped it out of his hands while he read >it aloud. > Oho-HO! So *that's* what you have been hiding behind your innocent query! I see that no one has yet mentioned Terry Pratchett. I guess that it's up to me, then. Besides the obvious Discworld books, he's written 2 non-Discworld series that are aimed more specifically at younger readers. Those are the Johnny Maxwell books & the Bromeliad (Truckers, Diggers, Wings). There's also "The Amazing Maurice & his Educated Rodents", which is Discworld. Terry Pratchett's books tend to have a strong humanist motif, and there's a certain subversiveness in many of them. The more recent ones do have a certain darkness to them, but unless the parental units read the books themselves, cover to cover, they probably won't see it. ( "Question Authority", because Authority may not know what the hell it's doing ) "Whoever had created humanity had left in a major design flaw. It was its tendency to bend at the knees." -- Cmdr. Vimes on kings, "Feet of Clay", by Terry Pratchett. From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Mon Nov 25 21:25:39 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 23:25:39 -0600 Subject: A question on FHYA References: <1038284011.1161.35.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: Jag wrote: > I've been rereading FHYA and noticed something a little odd. Near the > end of the book, the last straw that causes Adron to go from waiting > to attacking is learning of the arrest of his daughter. At the time > Aerich comments on how he'd like to know the details of the arrest, > and Adron confers and says that he will ask when he storms the city. > > However, earlier in the book it is noted that Adron and Aliera are > capable of psionic communication with each other. So, this leads me > to wonder, why didn't Aliera just tell her father what happened? And > why didn't Adron try to communicate with Aliera to ask her? > > As best I can figure, Aliera hoped her arrest would lead to Adron > taking action. That's why she was so nonchalant about Khaavren > coming to arrest her. As for Adron, I suppose we can just assume > that he was so outraged at what happened that he didn't think to, or > want to[1], find out what really happened. > > I'm also somewhat surprised that Paarfi didn't predict this possible > question from the reader and try to answer it for us.[2] > > Does anyone else have any possible explinations for why Adron and > Aliera didn't communicate with one another following her arrest? > > > Jag > > > [1] There was a comment on how Adron was purposefully keeping some of > his 'steam' in so that he would attack the Emporer. > > [2] Unless he did it in about the last 50 pages of the book, in which > case I'm going to feel really stupid once I get to that part again. Here is the simple answer... If you read I believe Phoenix there is description of a black stone in the prisons... Yep... Black Phoenix stone, it prevents Psionic communication so I believe that should answer your question. (and it makes sense that it would be in the prisons) From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Nov 25 21:26:30 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 25 Nov 2002 23:26:30 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mark A Mandel writes: > On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, Matthew Hunter wrote: > > #> At 12:02 11/25/2002 -0500, Casey Rousseau wrote: > #> Donaldson just turns on my squick sensor. > # ^^^^^^ > # > #You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think > #it means. > > As a matter of fact, the people I know who actually use that word, and > from whose use I learned it, use it in a way very close to Casey's use, > which the definition on that website (which I have seen before) has > almost nothing to do with. > > To the best of my knowledge, "squick", in the usage of people who USE > the word, as opposed to inventing oddball definitions for words they > don't use (cf. _The Meaning of Liff_, Douglas Adams & somebody else), is > an experiencer-as-object verb meaning approximately 'disgust, nauseate; > turn off or repel (i.e., cause [someone] to feel turned off or > repelled]'. > > By "experiencer-as-object" I mean that the syntax is like that of > "disgust" rather than "hate": > That squicks me. GRAMMATICAL > That disgusts me. " > I hate that. " > I squick that. UNGRAMMATICAL > > Its original sense *may* have been restricted to sexual practices and > related subjects: > > 1. made-up example: > You can do that with your other friends if you like, but not > with me. It squicks me. > > 2. real example: > KNOCK KNOCK > (voices from inside): > Who is it? > And are they squicked by nudity? > (voice from peephole): > Oh, it's [name]. > (visitor): > No, it doesn't squick me. > > The word is also used in contexts without sexual reference, which *may* > be an expansion of its domain. Your definition includes "turn off", which is sexual. And your real example involves nudity, which to essentially everybody in the US is sexual. I think the sexual connection is pretty basic. I agree that the word may be starting to grow beyond that maybe. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Nov 25 21:28:31 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 25 Nov 2002 23:28:31 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "David Rodemaker" writes: > > #Matthew Hunter writes: > > #> As for Narnia, no denying the allegory, but it's a good story > > #> nonetheless. It's not a book that tries to convert you, it's > > #> just told from an explicitly Christian viewpoint. > > # > > #That's what bugged me, it's *not* explicitly christian. It's a > > #fantasy world, with non-christian fantasy religious elements, which he > > #whips the covers off at the end and blatantly associates with > > #christianity. That's what pissed me off about it. > > > > Well, yeah. Except that for Lewis, the Christian mythos is absolutely > > true about the universe. The fair question, as I see it, is: Did Lewis > > expect the series to hit people this way, or could he reasonably have > > expected it to? And if so, how did he feel about it? -- Not necessarily > > questions we can answer. > > The same argument could be made about LOTR, it's certainly as Christian as > Narnia is... Oh, nonsense. I'll agree that LotR is compatible with (Tolkien's view of) Catholic doctrine in some ways, but in fact one of the things I like about it is the clear *absence* of religion from that world. > The argument can be made that both T. and L. were Christian mystics (not in > the occult sense but in the religious one) and were quite aware of what they > were doing. I'm sure they were too. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Nov 25 21:30:24 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 25 Nov 2002 23:30:24 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "David Rodemaker" writes: > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 07:26:08PM -0600, David Rodemaker > > wrote: > > > > Well, yeah. Except that for Lewis, the Christian mythos is absolutely > > > > true about the universe. The fair question, as I see it, is: Did Lewis > > > > expect the series to hit people this way, or could he reasonably have > > > > expected it to? And if so, how did he feel about it? -- Not > > necessarily > > > > questions we can answer. > > > The same argument could be made about LOTR, it's certainly as > > Christian as > > > Narnia is... > > > > Um, no. Narnia is very much a direct analogy, and the author > > admits it. Tolkien in LOTR denies any allegory along those > > lines, and it's a much weaker connection. > > > > I don't deny there are some parallels, but Narnia is several > > large steps closer to Christianity than Middle-Earth. > > Bah. > > Denial does not equate actuality. The amount of mystical Christian allegory > in LOTR is quite high, and any degree of 'less/more' really starts to hinge > on the intentional/unintentional axis. Besides, while Narnia is a somewhat > direct analogy, and explicitly so, of the NT, that does not mean that LOTR > *isn't* a less explicit but no less direct analogy. > > IIRC, his denials mainly tendered to the question that LOTR was written as a > commentary of WWII. That's the way I remember the particular denial of "allegory". I'm not absolutely sure whether he specifically limits the denial to the case he's discussing; but even if he doesn't, in context such a limit may have been applied. > (That is based btw, on reading done *many* years ago of his letters, etc. > Specific denials of Ring=Nukes and a specific comment comes to mind along > the obverse, 'Gandalf is an angel') Nothing about nukes or angels that I remember. > I can't think of medium-to-large 'sized' concept from Christianity that I > cannot find without difficulty in LOTR. I can't think of one that's particularly unique to Christianity that you *can* find in LotR. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From den at monger.net Mon Nov 25 21:09:07 2002 From: den at monger.net (Dennis Higbee) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 21:09:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, David Rodemaker wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 07:26:08PM -0600, David Rodemaker > > wrote: [LotR and Narnia as christian fiction] > > > The same argument could be made about LOTR, it's certainly as > > Christian as > > > Narnia is... > > > > Um, no. Narnia is very much a direct analogy, and the author > > admits it. Tolkien in LOTR denies any allegory along those > > lines, and it's a much weaker connection. > > > > I don't deny there are some parallels, but Narnia is several > > large steps closer to Christianity than Middle-Earth. > > Bah. Double Bah right back at you. > Denial does not equate actuality. The amount of mystical Christian allegory > in LOTR is quite high, and any degree of 'less/more' really starts to hinge > on the intentional/unintentional axis. Besides, while Narnia is a somewhat > direct analogy, and explicitly so, of the NT, that does not mean that LOTR > *isn't* a less explicit but no less direct analogy. Speaking solely of _The Lord of the Rings_, and not Tolkien's entire cosmology, there is virtually NO explicit Christian mysticism. It's a version of the monomyth written by a devout Catholic, but there's nothing more Christ-like about Frodo than King Arthur, or even Paul Maud'dib from Dune. You can certainly see Christian values peeking through the story, but they are implicit in the author's worldview and not explicit in the story. This is distinct from Narnia, in which each book is either a retelling (reliving, perhaps, since according to Lewis, Aslan is not an allegory for Jesus, Aslan IS Jesus) of a Bible story, an attempt to make some point about the rightness of Christian belief, or a combination of both. It ain't the same thing. > IIRC, his denials mainly tendered to the question that LOTR was written as a > commentary of WWII. The statement was made in response to that question, yes, but the statement was that he despised allegory in all its forms. > (That is based btw, on reading done *many* years ago of his letters, etc. > Specific denials of Ring=Nukes and a specific comment comes to mind along > the obverse, 'Gandalf is an angel') Yes, but at no point in the story does he TELL you that Gandalf is an angel. You're left to find that if you wish. > I can't think of medium-to-large 'sized' concept from Christianity that I > cannot find without difficulty in LOTR. Considering that Christianity has provided the framework for Western thought for a good sixteen hundred years at least, I doubt that this phenomenon is in any way unique to _The Lord of the Rings_. It's a book informed by the author's faith. Unlike the Narnia books and much of Lewis' other writings, it is not a book ABOUT the author's faith. -Dennis From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Mon Nov 25 21:32:21 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 23:32:21 -0600 Subject: A question on FHYA References: <1038284011.1161.35.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: Gametech wrote: > Jag wrote: >> I've been rereading FHYA and noticed something a little odd. Near >> the end of the book, the last straw that causes Adron to go from >> waiting to attacking is learning of the arrest of his daughter. At >> the time Aerich comments on how he'd like to know the details of the >> arrest, and Adron confers and says that he will ask when he storms >> the city. >> >> However, earlier in the book it is noted that Adron and Aliera are >> capable of psionic communication with each other. So, this leads me >> to wonder, why didn't Aliera just tell her father what happened? And >> why didn't Adron try to communicate with Aliera to ask her? >> >> As best I can figure, Aliera hoped her arrest would lead to Adron >> taking action. That's why she was so nonchalant about Khaavren >> coming to arrest her. As for Adron, I suppose we can just assume >> that he was so outraged at what happened that he didn't think to, or >> want to[1], find out what really happened. >> >> I'm also somewhat surprised that Paarfi didn't predict this possible >> question from the reader and try to answer it for us.[2] >> >> Does anyone else have any possible explinations for why Adron and >> Aliera didn't communicate with one another following her arrest? >> >> >> Jag >> >> >> [1] There was a comment on how Adron was purposefully keeping some >> of his 'steam' in so that he would attack the Emporer. >> >> [2] Unless he did it in about the last 50 pages of the book, in which >> case I'm going to feel really stupid once I get to that part again. > > > Here is the simple answer... If you read I believe Phoenix there is > description of a black stone in the prisons... Yep... Black Phoenix > stone, it prevents Psionic communication so I believe that should > answer your question. (and it makes sense that it would be in the > prisons) Let me rephrase it answers the question about why Adron didn't speak with Aliera via psionic communication. From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Nov 25 21:33:53 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 25 Nov 2002 23:33:53 -0600 Subject: A different Track In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021125225209.0263ef50@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021125225209.0263ef50@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: Jeremy Michel writes: > So i got 84 messages about youth fantasy today (and i will admit that > i've contributed a bit myself in days past) but this is getting > rediculous, i'm sorry i can't keep up anymore I prepose we start a > new conversation. Oh, that'll help, *another* topic to add to the message cascade! :-) But seriously, the way to start a discussion is to *say* something; asking somebody else to do the work is far less likely to work. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From andrew at networkharmoni.com.au Mon Nov 25 21:50:24 2002 From: andrew at networkharmoni.com.au (Andrew Bailey) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:50:24 +0800 Subject: A question on FHYA References: <1038284011.1161.35.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: <3DE30BA0.3070202@networkharmoni.com.au> Gametech wrote: > Gametech wrote: > >>Jag wrote: >> >>>I've been rereading FHYA and noticed something a little odd. Near >>>the end of the book, the last straw that causes Adron to go from >>>waiting to attacking is learning of the arrest of his daughter. At >>>the time Aerich comments on how he'd like to know the details of the >>>arrest, and Adron confers and says that he will ask when he storms >>>the city. >>> >>>However, earlier in the book it is noted that Adron and Aliera are >>>capable of psionic communication with each other. So, this leads me >>>to wonder, why didn't Aliera just tell her father what happened? And >>>why didn't Adron try to communicate with Aliera to ask her? >>> >>>As best I can figure, Aliera hoped her arrest would lead to Adron >>>taking action. That's why she was so nonchalant about Khaavren >>>coming to arrest her. As for Adron, I suppose we can just assume >>>that he was so outraged at what happened that he didn't think to, or >>>want to[1], find out what really happened. >>> >>>I'm also somewhat surprised that Paarfi didn't predict this possible >>>question from the reader and try to answer it for us.[2] >>> >>>Does anyone else have any possible explinations for why Adron and >>>Aliera didn't communicate with one another following her arrest? >>> >>> >>>Jag >>> >>> >>>[1] There was a comment on how Adron was purposefully keeping some >>>of his 'steam' in so that he would attack the Emporer. >>> >>>[2] Unless he did it in about the last 50 pages of the book, in which >>>case I'm going to feel really stupid once I get to that part again. >> >> >>Here is the simple answer... If you read I believe Phoenix there is >>description of a black stone in the prisons... Yep... Black Phoenix >>stone, it prevents Psionic communication so I believe that should >>answer your question. (and it makes sense that it would be in the >>prisons) > > > > Let me rephrase it answers the question about why Adron didn't speak with > Aliera via psionic communication. Not really. Given that they are different buildings :) They may have used Black Phoneix stone in the old building, but then they may not have, since psionic communication wasn't particullary common. Andrew. > From davids at kithrup.com Mon Nov 25 21:57:56 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 21:57:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: A different Track In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 25 Nov 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >Jeremy Michel writes: > >> So i got 84 messages about youth fantasy today (and i will admit that >> i've contributed a bit myself in days past) but this is getting >> rediculous, i'm sorry i can't keep up anymore I prepose we start a >> new conversation. > >Oh, that'll help, *another* topic to add to the message cascade! :-) > >But seriously, the way to start a discussion is to *say* something; >asking somebody else to do the work is far less likely to work. Yes. In other words, yammering on about how everybody else is yammering on isn't going to *stop* people from yammering on; they're just going to yammer on about how you're yammering on about *their* yammering on. Which is counterproductive, unless that's the sort of thing you like to do. Uh. Anyway, to change the subject, here's a question for Steve, about something he wrote in his weblog: "Listening to music while reading is like putting ketchup on steak." What does that *mean*? I'm a vegetarian, so I don't really understand how ketchup affects steak. To the left, I do sometimes listen to music while reading, and I find that sometimes what I'm reading is so interesting that I start ignoring the music, and sometimes the music is so compelling that I no longer give the text my full attention. Some people have spoken of a particular piece of music being a good "soundtrack" for a particular written work, but I have not yet found such an example that works for me. From jjm57 at cornell.edu Mon Nov 25 22:05:52 2002 From: jjm57 at cornell.edu (Jeremy Michel) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 01:05:52 -0500 Subject: A different Track Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126010441.0266f410@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> >Yes. In other words, yammering on about how everybody else is >yammering on isn't going to *stop* people from yammering on; they're >just going to yammer on about how you're yammering on about *their* >yammering on. Which is counterproductive, unless that's the sort of >thing you like to do. That was my point...It was a joke... laugh next time -ME From merlin at quickfinger.com Mon Nov 25 22:09:30 2002 From: merlin at quickfinger.com (Merlin Graves) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 23:09:30 -0700 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth Message-ID: <007201c29512$62768680$0202a8c0@merlin> > > > You gave him LOVECRAFT and you are complaining that he's too > > > young for CS Lewis and Vlad??!?!?!?!!! Lovecraft's not bad for that age group- I went on a Lovecraft binge when I was about that age and read everything the man ever published (everything I could find, anywho) No sex, not too terribly graphic (compared to a lot of the horror out these days), little if any foul language. Good kid fodder, if my somewhat fragile memory is holding up. Only danger I see if the kid might do what I did- chase down and try to read the Necronomicon That one was amusing, but maybe a little much for your average pre-teen. Merlin > > > From ambyrglow at softhome.net Mon Nov 25 22:17:03 2002 From: ambyrglow at softhome.net (Claire Rojstaczer) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 01:17:03 -0500 Subject: A different Track In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126010441.0266f410@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126010441.0266f410@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: > >Yes. In other words, yammering on about how everybody else is >>yammering on isn't going to *stop* people from yammering on; they're >>just going to yammer on about how you're yammering on about *their* >>yammering on. Which is counterproductive, unless that's the sort of >>thing you like to do. > >That was my point...It was a joke... laugh next time -ME Commanding people to laugh at your jokes is about as effective as commanding people to pick a new discussion topic. Claire ponders multiple levels of irony From davids at kithrup.com Mon Nov 25 22:23:58 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 22:23:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: A question on FHYA In-Reply-To: <3DE30BA0.3070202@networkharmoni.com.au> Message-ID: Note: spoilers below. Summarizing previous messages: Jag wrote: > [Why didn't Aliera and Adron psionically communicate about her > arrest?] Another possibility that occurs to me is that Aliera may have been too proud to tell her father about the arrest, since that might have a taint of cowardice ("Oh Daddy, I've been arrested, come save me!"). But maybe not. See below. Gametech wrote: > [The prisons have black phoenix stone, which prevents such > communication.] On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Andrew Bailey wrote: > >Not really. Given that they are different buildings :) > >They may have used Black Phoneix stone in the old building, but then >they may not have, since psionic communication wasn't particullary >common. > It was uncommon, but it was known. There may have been some situation, early in the history of the Empire, where the ruler needed to be sure that prisoners who were also sorcerors were unable to communicate at all with the outside, and the only way to do that was to use black phoenix stone. So it may be a traditional component of all prisons, not just the one in Adrilankha. Indeed, perhaps gold phoenix stone is used as well. After all, if there isn't anything, what is to prevent a sufficiently competent sorcerer from simply breaking out? From davids at kithrup.com Mon Nov 25 22:32:03 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 22:32:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: A different Track In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126010441.0266f410@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Jeremy Michel wrote: > >Yes. In other words, yammering on about how everybody else is > >yammering on isn't going to *stop* people from yammering on; they're > >just going to yammer on about how you're yammering on about *their* > >yammering on. Which is counterproductive, unless that's the sort of > >thing you like to do. > >That was my point...It was a joke... laugh next time -ME > Well, I was being facetious as well. I think mine was funnier. Especially since it was an obvious homage to Monty Python. From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Mon Nov 25 22:35:46 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 00:35:46 -0600 Subject: A question on FHYA References: <1038284011.1161.35.camel@loiosh> <3DE30BA0.3070202@networkharmoni.com.au> Message-ID: Andrew Bailey wrote: > Gametech wrote: >> Gametech wrote: >> >>> Jag wrote: >>> >>>> I've been rereading FHYA and noticed something a little odd. Near >>>> the end of the book, the last straw that causes Adron to go from >>>> waiting to attacking is learning of the arrest of his daughter. At >>>> the time Aerich comments on how he'd like to know the details of >>>> the arrest, and Adron confers and says that he will ask when he >>>> storms the city. >>>> >>>> However, earlier in the book it is noted that Adron and Aliera are >>>> capable of psionic communication with each other. So, this leads >>>> me to wonder, why didn't Aliera just tell her father what >>>> happened? And why didn't Adron try to communicate with Aliera to >>>> ask her? >>>> >>>> As best I can figure, Aliera hoped her arrest would lead to Adron >>>> taking action. That's why she was so nonchalant about Khaavren >>>> coming to arrest her. As for Adron, I suppose we can just assume >>>> that he was so outraged at what happened that he didn't think to, >>>> or want to[1], find out what really happened. >>>> >>>> I'm also somewhat surprised that Paarfi didn't predict this >>>> possible question from the reader and try to answer it for us.[2] >>>> >>>> Does anyone else have any possible explinations for why Adron and >>>> Aliera didn't communicate with one another following her arrest? >>>> >>>> >>>> Jag >>>> >>>> >>>> [1] There was a comment on how Adron was purposefully keeping some >>>> of his 'steam' in so that he would attack the Emporer. >>>> >>>> [2] Unless he did it in about the last 50 pages of the book, in >>>> which case I'm going to feel really stupid once I get to that part >>>> again. >>> >>> Here is the simple answer... If you read I believe Phoenix there is >>> description of a black stone in the prisons... Yep... Black Phoenix >>> stone, it prevents Psionic communication so I believe that should >>> answer your question. (and it makes sense that it would be in the >>> prisons) >> >> >> >> Let me rephrase it answers the question about why Adron didn't speak >> with Aliera via psionic communication. > > Not really. Given that they are different buildings :) > > They may have used Black Phoneix stone in the old building, but then > they may not have, since psionic communication wasn't particullary > common. > > Andrew. I guess you are right, there isn't really any likely hood there is a connection between the new set up of the prisons and the old, I guess we should just guess Adron was stupid and didn't think to contact Aliera and that the Empire is stupid and allows thier prisoners to talk to anyone whom they can make psionic contact with. Yeah... and Morrolan and Sethra are actually jenoine shapeshifters who are decendants of Verra whom actually isn't real at all but is a figment of Vlad's imagination (after all he needs some creative outlet while being so paraniod.) which is of course how Parfi came to exist though you had though him to be a creation of Steve's. Common or not I don't think the Empire would overlook it as such. I stand by my first suggestion that in fact the reason Adron didn't contact Aliera psionicaly was because he couldn't -- which under normal circumstances was possible for him hence a source of interference, If *You* have a better suggestion to what is more likely I'm all ears. From andrew at networkharmoni.com.au Mon Nov 25 22:42:56 2002 From: andrew at networkharmoni.com.au (Andrew Bailey) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:42:56 +0800 Subject: A question on FHYA References: Message-ID: <3DE317F0.3020405@networkharmoni.com.au> David Silberstein wrote: > Note: spoilers below. > > > Another possibility that occurs to me is that Aliera may have been too > proud to tell her father about the arrest, since that might have a > taint of cowardice ("Oh Daddy, I've been arrested, come save me!"). > > But maybe not. See below. Actually, that makes more sense to me, especially when its "Oh Daddy, I have been arrestted for helping a Jehreg Assain escape cause he was cute." That one might not go down quite well. > > Gametech wrote: > > >>[The prisons have black phoenix stone, which prevents such >>communication.] > > > > On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Andrew Bailey wrote: > > >>Not really. Given that they are different buildings :) >> >>They may have used Black Phoneix stone in the old building, but then >>they may not have, since psionic communication wasn't particullary >>common. >> > > > It was uncommon, but it was known. There may have been some > situation, early in the history of the Empire, where the ruler needed > to be sure that prisoners who were also sorcerors were unable to > communicate at all with the outside, and the only way to do that was > to use black phoenix stone. So it may be a traditional component of > all prisons, not just the one in Adrilankha. > Yes but was it known that Black Phoenix stone stops psionics :) If psionics weren't _that_ commonly used then finding out that information is not that likely. And when I say uncommon, its like really uncommon. Basically the impression I got was psionic communication required a quite substantial link , and a great deal of compentance on both sides or devices. Of cource there are exceptions but you're unlikly to be imprisoning either of those[1]. And anyway I didn't say that it didn't I just said you cannot infer >from the construction of one prison, the constructions of all prisons. > Indeed, perhaps gold phoenix stone is used as well. After all, if > there isn't anything, what is to prevent a sufficiently competent > sorcerer from simply breaking out? Their Honour? Andrew. [1] The Emperor/Emperess and Sethra[2] [2] Sethra is the exception to everything :) From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Mon Nov 25 22:45:47 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 00:45:47 -0600 Subject: A question on FHYA References: Message-ID: David Silberstein wrote: > Note: spoilers below. > > Summarizing previous messages: > > Jag wrote: > >> [Why didn't Aliera and Adron psionically communicate about her >> arrest?] > > Another possibility that occurs to me is that Aliera may have been too > proud to tell her father about the arrest, since that might have a > taint of cowardice ("Oh Daddy, I've been arrested, come save me!"). > > But maybe not. See below. > > Gametech wrote: > >> [The prisons have black phoenix stone, which prevents such >> communication.] > > > On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Andrew Bailey wrote: > >> >> Not really. Given that they are different buildings :) >> >> They may have used Black Phoneix stone in the old building, but then >> they may not have, since psionic communication wasn't particullary >> common. >> > > It was uncommon, but it was known. There may have been some > situation, early in the history of the Empire, where the ruler needed > to be sure that prisoners who were also sorcerors were unable to > communicate at all with the outside, and the only way to do that was > to use black phoenix stone. So it may be a traditional component of > all prisons, not just the one in Adrilankha. > > Indeed, perhaps gold phoenix stone is used as well. After all, if > there isn't anything, what is to prevent a sufficiently competent > sorcerer from simply breaking out? I'd fugure a teleport block at least, and a damn good one. I think something more effective though would be removing one's link from the orb while in custody, becuase if it can be given, which clearly it can -- Vlad has access because of his house association, it can at least be restriced from a persons use, likely there is someone who serves the Empire who'd be responsible for doing such a thing if it did indeed occur. But on the flipside Gold phoenix stone would do a nice job as well of course. From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Nov 25 22:44:35 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 00:44:35 -0600 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <007201c29512$62768680$0202a8c0@merlin> References: <007201c29512$62768680$0202a8c0@merlin> Message-ID: <20021126064435.GD7051@infodancer.org> On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 11:09:30PM -0700, Merlin Graves wrote: > > > > You gave him LOVECRAFT and you are complaining that he's too > > > > young for CS Lewis and Vlad??!?!?!?!!! > Lovecraft's not bad for that age group- I went on a Lovecraft binge when I > was about that age and read everything the man ever published (everything > I could find, anywho) No sex, not too terribly graphic (compared to a lot > of the horror out these days), little if any foul language. Good kid fodder, > if my somewhat fragile memory is holding up. Only danger I see if the kid > might do what I did- chase down and try to read the Necronomicon I think this is a truly classic example of the modern parenting fallacy -- that is, that sex, foul language, and gore are the arbiters of childworthiness. I concede that Lovecraft did not write much that was focused on those problematic topics. Yet, he DID write about horrifying, supernatural beasts and terrible, scary consequences of man's dealings with those beasts. He wrote about powers gained from pacts with the inhuman, the hopelessness of humanity before an unstoppable force far greater than they could even comprehend. He wrote about the gruesome (if not gorey) consequences of scientific experimentation, and the darkness of the human soul to which we are all occasional victims. Is he a great writer? Hell yes. Is he suitable, or even comprehensible, to an 11 year old? Maybe some, but certainly not most. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Mon Nov 25 23:02:44 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 01:02:44 -0600 Subject: A question on FHYA References: <3DE317F0.3020405@networkharmoni.com.au> Message-ID: Andrew Bailey wrote: > David Silberstein wrote: >> Note: spoilers below. >> >> >> Another possibility that occurs to me is that Aliera may have been >> too proud to tell her father about the arrest, since that might have >> a taint of cowardice ("Oh Daddy, I've been arrested, come save me!"). >> >> But maybe not. See below. > > Actually, that makes more sense to me, especially when its > > "Oh Daddy, I have been arrestted for helping a Jehreg Assain escape > cause he was cute." > > That one might not go down quite well. > >> >> Gametech wrote: >> >> >>> [The prisons have black phoenix stone, which prevents such >>> communication.] >> >> >> >> On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Andrew Bailey wrote: >> >> >>> Not really. Given that they are different buildings :) >>> >>> They may have used Black Phoneix stone in the old building, but then >>> they may not have, since psionic communication wasn't particullary >>> common. >>> >> >> >> It was uncommon, but it was known. There may have been some >> situation, early in the history of the Empire, where the ruler needed >> to be sure that prisoners who were also sorcerors were unable to >> communicate at all with the outside, and the only way to do that was >> to use black phoenix stone. So it may be a traditional component of >> all prisons, not just the one in Adrilankha. >> > > Yes but was it known that Black Phoenix stone stops psionics :) > > If psionics weren't _that_ commonly used then finding out that > information is not that likely. > > And when I say uncommon, its like really uncommon. > > Basically the impression I got was psionic communication required a > quite substantial link , and a great deal of compentance on both sides > or devices. > > > Of cource there are exceptions but you're unlikly to be imprisoning > either of those[1]. > > And anyway I didn't say that it didn't I just said you cannot infer > from the construction of one prison, the constructions of all prisons. > Even if it is the most likely conclusion? If Adron Knew that was good enough for him to inquire to Aliera, From the way I gathered things if Aliera said 'Daddy I helped a Jhereg Assassin that wants to kill the Emperor out' I doubt he'd have been reprimanding her, or at least I think that Aliera wouldn't fail to tell her father because she was embarrassed.. err.. is Aliera capable of being embarrassed?, heh. My basis was on two specific things 1. I'm damn sure (unless my perceptions deceive me) that Phoenix stone (black) exists in the Empire's capital city's dungeon (of Vlad's time) and 2. that that dungeon/prison/hotel room depending on who you are was the Empire's capital city's and it's not like we are comparing two random apples one being granny smith and the other being yellow delicious we are comparing two very similar things the prisons of the Empire's capital city, and moreover we know that Aliera and Adron were capable of, etc., etc. From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Nov 25 22:47:15 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 00:47:15 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20021126064715.GE7051@infodancer.org> On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 11:28:31PM -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Oh, nonsense. I'll agree that LotR is compatible with (Tolkien's view > of) Catholic doctrine in some ways, but in fact one of the things I > like about it is the clear *absence* of religion from that world. Who needs religion when the gods still walk the earth? It has always seemed to me that religion is a way of remembering the times when they did just that... and it is necessary because they no longer do. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Nov 25 23:15:45 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 26 Nov 2002 01:15:45 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: <20021126064715.GE7051@infodancer.org> References: <20021126064715.GE7051@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Matthew Hunter writes: > On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 11:28:31PM -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > Oh, nonsense. I'll agree that LotR is compatible with (Tolkien's view > > of) Catholic doctrine in some ways, but in fact one of the things I > > like about it is the clear *absence* of religion from that world. > > Who needs religion when the gods still walk the earth? The use of the plural there isn't very compatible with Catholicism. > It has always seemed to me that religion is a way of remembering > the times when they did just that... and it is necessary because > they no longer do. It sure improved real-estate values. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From nytemuse at auros.org Mon Nov 25 23:21:19 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 23:21:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: A different Track In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, David Silberstein wrote: > Anyway, to change the subject, here's a question for Steve, about > something he wrote in his weblog: > > "Listening to music while reading is like putting ketchup on steak." > > What does that *mean*? I'm a vegetarian, so I don't really understand > how ketchup affects steak. Well, if I'm reading it correctly, putting ketchup on steak is being used to mean something like two opposing forces/entities in a way that they compete with each other, if not negate each other. Steak has its own flavor (if spiced properly), and ketchup has its own (rather strong) flavor, so it seems unnecessary and even unwise to use both. In the same token, if you're reading a book, your brain is trying to work on comprehending the book. If you have music going as well, that takes part of your brain away from the book task and you lose something in the end. That's how it sounds to me... I don't necessarily agree. My b/f had the hardest time understanding why I couldn't get any work done on the computer or doing homework or something without the TV on or music or chatting with someone. When I'm reading, I don't watch TV, though. I DO listen to music, preferably something that my brain perceives as "white noise" (something familiar and not too distracting), if not white noise itself. If I don't, any background noise will distract me. I guess because I've trained my brain to multi-task? And I live in an apartment complex with children and animals, so there are MANY distractions. :) And forgive me if that didn't scan right...I've been packing all day for trip to Australia tomorrow and am frazzled from trying to make sure I have everything. Personally, I wonder more about the next quote: "If you're going to permit yourself to be offended by a cat, you might as well just pack it in." What did the cat in question do to offend? ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From andrew at networkharmoni.com.au Mon Nov 25 23:30:37 2002 From: andrew at networkharmoni.com.au (Andrew Bailey) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:30:37 +0800 Subject: A question on FHYA References: <3DE317F0.3020405@networkharmoni.com.au> Message-ID: <3DE3231D.2000603@networkharmoni.com.au> Gametech wrote: > Ok firstly, I think that there is a likleyhood that psionics were blocked, I am just stating that we do not have any real proof. And anyway I kinda like the idea that they didn't rather than they couldn't. > Even if it is the most likely conclusion? If Adron Knew that was good enough > for him to inquire to Aliera, From the way I gathered things if Aliera said > 'Daddy I helped a Jhereg Assassin that wants to kill the Emperor out' I > doubt he'd have been reprimanding her, or at least I think that Aliera > wouldn't fail to tell her father because she was embarrassed.. err.. is > Aliera capable of being embarrassed?, heh. True, but Dragons tend to get funny about assination. But then again I don't understand Dragons. I feel that had Ardon wanted to get in touch with his daughter he could have, phoenix stone or no phoenix stone. He was after all the preminent sourcerer of his era and an adept at per-empire magic. Also he may have realised that if he knew why his daughter was imprisoned, politically he could have difficulty justifing getting angry. It seemed to me that his attitude was, this gives me an excuse to something I kind of want to do, finding out more information could remove that excuse. > > My basis was on two specific things 1. I'm damn sure (unless my perceptions > deceive me) that Phoenix stone (black) exists in the Empire's capital city's > dungeon (of Vlad's time) and 2. that that dungeon/prison/hotel room > depending on who you are was the Empire's capital city's and it's not like > we are comparing two random apples one being granny smith and the other > being yellow delicious we are comparing two very similar things the prisons > of the Empire's capital city, and moreover we know that Aliera and Adron > were capable of, etc., etc. > And my basis is that the imperial prison in Adrihlanka(sp?) is not the same building and if it was not built post Ardons disastor was at least heavily rebuilt. I doubt very much that they could move the capital without some serious remodelling of the facilities. Basically you are comparing architecture from different cities and probably of a different era of construction. Of course I could be completely wrong I just don't think we have enough evidence to make a conclusive argument on either side. Andrew. From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Tue Nov 26 00:00:11 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 02:00:11 -0600 Subject: A question on FHYA References: <3DE317F0.3020405@networkharmoni.com.au> <3DE3231D.2000603@networkharmoni.com.au> Message-ID: Andrew Bailey wrote: > Gametech wrote: >> > > Ok firstly, I think that there is a likleyhood that psionics were > blocked, I am just stating that we do not have any real proof. > And anyway I kinda like the idea that they didn't rather than > they couldn't. > >> Even if it is the most likely conclusion? If Adron Knew that was >> good enough for him to inquire to Aliera, From the way I gathered >> things if Aliera said 'Daddy I helped a Jhereg Assassin that wants >> to kill the Emperor out' I doubt he'd have been reprimanding her, or >> at least I think that Aliera wouldn't fail to tell her father >> because she was embarrassed.. err.. is Aliera capable of being >> embarrassed?, heh. > > True, but Dragons tend to get funny about assination. But then again > I don't understand Dragons. > > I feel that had Ardon wanted to get in touch with his daughter he > could have, phoenix stone or no phoenix stone. He was after all the > preminent sourcerer of his era and an adept at per-empire magic. Also > he may have realised that if he knew why his daughter was imprisoned, > politically he could have difficulty justifing getting angry. It > seemed to me that his attitude was, this gives me an excuse to > something I kind of want to do, finding out more information could > remove that excuse. > >> >> My basis was on two specific things 1. I'm damn sure (unless my >> perceptions deceive me) that Phoenix stone (black) exists in the >> Empire's capital city's dungeon (of Vlad's time) and 2. that that >> dungeon/prison/hotel room depending on who you are was the Empire's >> capital city's and it's not like we are comparing two random apples >> one being granny smith and the other being yellow delicious we are >> comparing two very similar things the prisons of the Empire's >> capital city, and moreover we know that Aliera and Adron were >> capable of, etc., etc. >> > > And my basis is that the imperial prison in Adrihlanka(sp?) is not the > same building and if it was not built post Ardons disastor was at > least heavily rebuilt. I doubt very much that they could move the > capital without some serious remodelling of the facilities. > > Basically you are comparing architecture from different cities and > probably of a different era of construction. > > Of course I could be completely wrong I just don't think we have > enough evidence to make a conclusive argument on either side. > > Andrew. We don't have enough evidence because the reason wasn't written to begin with, even if we have several sources of confirming evidence it still isn't cannon because we the reader made the connection not explicitly Steve. I'm satisfied that the reasonability that there would be phoenix stone (black) in the new prisons is a good theory because it is in fact a reason for why they couldn't if they did in fact try, I don't particularly care if they did try and failed that is all speculation but the fact that they didn't communicate at least to our knowledge is why this question was brought up in the first place. *However, earlier in the book it is noted that Adron and Aliera are *capable of psionic communication with each other. So, this leads me to *wonder, why didn't Aliera just tell her father what happened? Either because she couldn't or because as you said she didn't want to tell him why. I think it is more likely she couldn't than didn't try. *And why *didn't Adron try to communicate with Aliera to ask her? Either he did and failed, didn't because he knew it wouldn't work or didn't because he didn't want to know because he could have acted more angry if he didn't know (I doubt that last one heavily because he likely had a guess even if he was way off and a man like Adron seems like the type to stay informed and verify his guess.) Lastly it being two different types of architectures is I think is beside the point becuase the stones just sit around anyway it's like saying well you live in a tudor and I live in a victorian but I'll bet you we both have a toilet becuase it's something that makes logistical sense to be there. The stones aren't just there for decoration (unless Steve is being devious) They were there to block communication, Oh and lastly even if psionic communication is rare between people it is the way in which you'd communicate to your patron diety so if nothing else it would block communication of some variety that is to say the person couldn't pray to thier god to save them (this tidbit of information is shared by vlad in I believe Orca) Alas nothing else I must say that if I *had* to pick a specific reason why there was no communication between the two I'd pick the one that made the most sense, and was less obscure. That is up to the individual reader to decide. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Nov 26 00:06:52 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 00:06:52 -0800 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126000405.0258d080@localhost> At 07:26 PM 11/25/2002 -0600, David Rodemaker wrote: > > > > It's a much more general term, meaning pretty much "that allegedly > > > sexual activity disgusts me". Many people feel that way about Gor. > > > > Actually, that's a limited definition. The most basic definition of > > squick is something that disgusts or puts someone on the edge of > > heebie-jeebies. If something squicks you, the thought of it makes you > > feel just not right, like scat play for some people, or needles (used in a > > non-sexual manner). > >Hmmmm... > >I don't know about that... > >Whenever I use, or have seen squick used it has a sexual connotation. Whenever I've either heard or used the term, it has been related to an activity that is sexual to at least some people. On the other hand, I'm having trouble coming up with an actifity that isn't sexual to at least some people. The reason I like the term, however, is that it doesn't, so far as I know, mean, "that disgusts me." It more means, "I don't care for that." In other words, it is a way to say, "I have no interest in that activity," without saying, "ICK. YUCK! YOU MUST BE *SICK*." This is especially important if the latter is what you're actually thinking. I believe Miss Manners would thoroughly approve of the term. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Nov 26 00:08:50 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 00:08:50 -0800 Subject: A different Track In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126000735.0258b930@localhost> At 09:57 PM 11/25/2002 -0800, David Silberstein wrote: > > > "Listening to music while reading is like putting ketchup on steak." > >What does that *mean*? I'm a vegetarian, so I don't really understand >how ketchup affects steak. It means you are covering over the flavor of the steak, which is reasonable in the case of badly prepared steaks (although even then, you can certainly do better than ketchup). >To the left, I do sometimes listen to music while reading, and I find >that sometimes what I'm reading is so interesting that I start >ignoring the music, and sometimes the music is so compelling that I no >longer give the text my full attention. Yes. Exactly. From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Nov 25 23:57:38 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 01:57:38 -0600 Subject: A different Track In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126000735.0258b930@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126000735.0258b930@localhost> Message-ID: <20021126075738.GA9010@infodancer.org> On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 12:08:50AM -0800, Steven Brust wrote: > At 09:57 PM 11/25/2002 -0800, David Silberstein wrote: > > "Listening to music while reading is like putting ketchup on steak." > >What does that *mean*? I'm a vegetarian, so I don't really understand > >how ketchup affects steak. > It means you are covering over the flavor of the steak, which is reasonable > in the case of badly prepared steaks (although even then, you can certainly > do better than ketchup). Ketchup is a very poor match for steak. Proper sauces can contrast and combine with the flavor of the steak. Ketchup is sufficiently strong and different to be jarring, dischordant, and overwhelm the subtle flavorings. > >To the left, I do sometimes listen to music while reading, and I find > >that sometimes what I'm reading is so interesting that I start > >ignoring the music, and sometimes the music is so compelling that I no > >longer give the text my full attention. > Yes. Exactly. Sometimes it helps, sometimes it hurts. It depends on how the music complements the text, and how intrusive the music is. I listen to very text-friendly music -- carefully chosen to occupy a different part of my mental space than reading a book or programming or writing does. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From davids at kithrup.com Tue Nov 26 00:17:09 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 00:17:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: A question on FHYA In-Reply-To: <3DE317F0.3020405@networkharmoni.com.au> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Andrew Bailey wrote: >David Silberstein wrote: >> Note: spoilers below. >> >> Yet another possibility - Aliera deliberately refrained from communicating because she wanted her father to attack, and not send a rescue operation (which he might have done if he knew the specifics of where she was being held, and of her impending execution). Or possibly, since no one's mentioned it, Paarfi wrote what he wanted to write. :-) >> >> On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Andrew Bailey wrote: >> > >Yes but was it known that Black Phoenix stone stops psionics :) It's part of the base assumption. Work with me here - I assume that at least the top-level Athyra experimentalists would find out, once they find out that there's something weird going on on Greenaere. > >Basically the impression I got was psionic communication required a >quite substantial link , and a great deal of compentance on both sides >or devices. > True. So? It was still *known*. If, say, in our would, one person in a thousand has a radio transmitter / receiver in their skulls (and this device is known about when the person is captured), wouldn't you have at least one or two cells set aside that are radio-frequency shielded, so that such a prisoner can't coordinate with his/her accomplices? Similarly, the prisons in the Dragaera City Palace might well have had at least one or two cells with black (and gold?) phoenix stone for imprisoning wizards, even if not all of them were constructed that way. > >And anyway I didn't say that it didn't I just said you cannot infer >from the construction of one prison, the constructions of all prisons. > If the construction material has a specific analogous purpose (inhibit the prisoners actions and movements), I rather think I can. > >> Indeed, perhaps gold phoenix stone is used as well. After all, if >> there isn't anything, what is to prevent a sufficiently competent >> sorcerer from simply breaking out? > >Their Honour? > If you're going to rely on their honor, why even have bars, locks and guards? From andrew at networkharmoni.com.au Tue Nov 26 00:37:45 2002 From: andrew at networkharmoni.com.au (Andrew Bailey) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:37:45 +0800 Subject: A question on FHYA References: <3DE317F0.3020405@networkharmoni.com.au> <3DE3231D.2000603@networkharmoni.com.au> Message-ID: <3DE332D9.7090502@networkharmoni.com.au> Gametech wrote: > Andrew Bailey wrote: > > > We don't have enough evidence because the reason wasn't written to begin > with, even if we have several sources of confirming evidence it still isn't > cannon because we the reader made the connection not explicitly Steve. I'm > satisfied that the reasonability that there would be phoenix stone (black) > in the new prisons is a good theory because it is in fact a reason for why > they couldn't if they did in fact try, I don't particularly care if they did > try and failed that is all speculation but the fact that they didn't > communicate at least to our knowledge is why this question was brought up in > the first place. > Very very true. > > > > > *However, earlier in the book it is noted that Adron and Aliera are > *capable of psionic communication with each other. So, this leads me to > *wonder, why didn't Aliera just tell her father what happened? > > > > Either because she couldn't or because as you said she didn't want to tell > him why. I think it is more likely she couldn't than didn't try. > Fair enough. > > > *And why > *didn't Adron try to communicate with Aliera to ask her? > > > > Either he did and failed, didn't because he knew it wouldn't work or didn't > because he didn't want to know because he could have acted more angry if he > didn't know (I doubt that last one heavily because he likely had a guess > even if he was way off and a man like Adron seems like the type to stay > informed and verify his guess.) > Ok I kind of agree with that. I could be reading to much into his statement where he says to the effect "I'll find out when I get there". I also find if very hard to believe that Ardon could guess that Aliera was imprisoned 'cause she helped an assasin get away. There are other things that she could have done that are more obvious to Ardons point of view. > Lastly it being two different types of architectures is I think is beside > the point becuase the stones just sit around anyway it's like saying well > you live in a tudor and I live in a victorian but I'll bet you we both have > a toilet becuase it's something that makes logistical sense to be there. The > stones aren't just there for decoration (unless Steve is being devious) They > were there to block communication, Oh and lastly even if psionic > communication is rare between people it is the way in which you'd > communicate to your patron diety so if nothing else it would block > communication of some variety that is to say the person couldn't pray to > thier god to save them (this tidbit of information is shared by vlad in I > believe Orca) > Ok the point about architecture is not a point about architecture but more a point about technology. I probably didn't put it very well. Also there is an implicit assumption that the dragerians knew that black phoenix stone stops psionics. I can't remember any evidence that they did during the timeframe of FYA, again of course I could be wrong. Also there is no mention of stones set into the wall in the TPG scene where Katana e'M'archala and Tazenrda are painting on the wall. However that is not conclusive as A) Aliera may have been in a special cell and B) absence of description does not mean something isn't there. On the other hand Parfi does like to go into quite a lot of detail:) > Alas nothing else I must say that if I *had* to pick a specific reason why > there was no communication between the two I'd pick the one that made the > most sense, and was less obscure. That is up to the individual reader to > decide I just like the idea of Ardon choosing not to know, it suits my reading of his character more. Andrew. From baralier at optusnet.com.au Tue Nov 26 02:02:52 2002 From: baralier at optusnet.com.au (Baralier) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:02:52 +1100 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth References: Message-ID: <00e901c29533$824054c0$18a231d2@valadan> "David Rodemaker" said... > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 07:26:08PM -0600, David Rodemaker > > wrote: > > > > Well, yeah. Except that for Lewis, the Christian mythos is absolutely > > > > true about the universe. The fair question, as I see it, is: Did Lewis > > > > expect the series to hit people this way, or could he reasonably have > > > > expected it to? And if so, how did he feel about it? -- Not > > necessarily > > > > questions we can answer. > > > The same argument could be made about LOTR, it's certainly as > > Christian as > > > Narnia is... > > > > Um, no. Narnia is very much a direct analogy, and the author > > admits it. Tolkien in LOTR denies any allegory along those > > lines, and it's a much weaker connection. > > > > I don't deny there are some parallels, but Narnia is several > > large steps closer to Christianity than Middle-Earth. > > Bah. > > Denial does not equate actuality. The amount of mystical Christian allegory > in LOTR is quite high, and any degree of 'less/more' really starts to hinge > on the intentional/unintentional axis. Besides, while Narnia is a somewhat > direct analogy, and explicitly so, of the NT, that does not mean that LOTR > *isn't* a less explicit but no less direct analogy. > > IIRC, his denials mainly tendered to the question that LOTR was written as a > commentary of WWII. > > (That is based btw, on reading done *many* years ago of his letters, etc. > Specific denials of Ring=Nukes and a specific comment comes to mind along > the obverse, 'Gandalf is an angel') > > I can't think of medium-to-large 'sized' concept from Christianity that I > cannot find without difficulty in LOTR. And I can find Judaic concepts in Christian Myths. I can find Druidic concepts in Christian Myths. I can find Wiccan concepts in Christian Myths. I can find Buddhist concepts in Christian Myths. This does not make Christianity Pagan or Buddhist any more than finding Christian concepts in LotR makes it a "Christian" work. Paul -- Good planning and organisation are just crutches for people who can't handle stress and caffeine. http://members.optushome.com.au/velvetspyder Costumier & Reprobate From sirchuck at macomb.com Tue Nov 26 03:52:49 2002 From: sirchuck at macomb.com (John Mietus) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 05:52:49 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Casey Rousseau said: > I'm curious. A question especially for those who responded strongly to my > recommendation for the Covenant series, how old were you when you read them, > if you recall. I, for example, do not recall the rape scene mentioned by > someone as being at the begining of the first one - Lord Foul's Bane - > although I think I do remember a human sacrifice. It has been many years > since I went back an reread this one. Ususally I'll start with The Illearth > War if I want to dip back into it. I definitely read them before The One > Tree came out in April of '82 which means I was not yet 12 and may have been > only 10 when I started reading these. > > Casey I read tried reading them in high school as they were being published initially. The first thing Thomas Covenant does when he reaches the Land and realizes his leprosy no longer affects him is rape the young girl who tries to help him. At which point I put the book the book down and didn't pick it up again for another five years, and then only read the series at the insistence of friends. Combustible yeti, John "Baldrick, does it have to be this way? Our valued friendship coming to an end with me cutting you into long strips, then telling the Prince you walked over a sharp cattle grid wearing an extremely heavy hat?" -- Edmund Blackadder From mtiller at ntlworld.com Tue Nov 26 04:07:12 2002 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:07:12 -0000 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: <20021125234210.GE427@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <000501c29544$5a938fd0$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> > On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, Matthew Hunter wrote: > > #You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Yes, but the word was unbeleivable. My name is Inego Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die! From mtiller at ntlworld.com Tue Nov 26 04:12:28 2002 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:12:28 -0000 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000601c29545$16f0ff50$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> >The *are* in many clear ways male-centric, and at least one friend simply can't read them for that reason. On the other >hand, it was in one of the Skylark books that Dorothy insists on strapping on her guns and going with Seaton on a critical >mission, and makes him accept it, and makes him acknowledge afterwards that that was where she belonged. Even though they >had a young child (left with safe reliable people at the time). And in the 2 Galaxy Primes books, the males & females are equal. The female Earth prime is (what would now be called agressively feminist). It didn't strike me when I first read the books, because the Women's lib movement was just getting started. The books were however quite old even then. Regards Mark From mam at theworld.com Tue Nov 26 06:08:15 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:08:15 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, H. T. wrote: #No, the type you are completely related to by mother and father, to #distinguish from "step-brother". Drat, I knew I was leaving something out of my earlier list of possibilities. If your parents divorced or one of them died, and one of them then marries someone who has a son by a previous marriage, your parent's new spouse is your stepparent (stepfather or stepmother, hyphen optional in all cases) and their son is your stepbrother. A stepbrother has no genetic relationship to you and should not be confused with a half-brother (hyphen required, IMHO), who is the son of one of your parents but not the other. This situation typically arises when someone who has a child by a previous marriage remarries and has a child with the new spouse. The children of the remarried person, by the different marriages, are each other's half-siblings. "Full brother" can be used to refer to a male who is the (genetic) son of both the people who are your (genetic) parents, to distinguish him >from a half- or step-brother. (And this doesn't even get into the question of host mothers and sperm-donor fathers.) -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From jazzfish at softhome.net Tue Nov 26 06:13:46 2002 From: jazzfish at softhome.net (Tucker) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:13:46 -0500 Subject: Donaldson (was RE: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20021126091300.00ad0658@pop.softhome.net> >I'm curious. A question especially for those who responded strongly to my >recommendation for the Covenant series, how old were you when you read them, >if you recall. Um. Eleven? Fifth grade, I think. Any subtleties were basically incomprehensible (meaning I Missed The Point Entirely) but I read them anyway. I wouldn't have recommended Donaldson to myself at that age, but I hadn't quite reached the point where I could walk into a bookstore/library and start on a new author on my own, and someone else recommended him. ---- The time for action is past-- now is the time for senseless bickering! --Ashleigh Brilliant From merlin at quickfinger.com Tue Nov 26 06:19:20 2002 From: merlin at quickfinger.com (Merlin Graves) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 07:19:20 -0700 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth References: <007201c29512$62768680$0202a8c0@merlin> <20021126064435.GD7051@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <004801c29556$d067e0f0$0202a8c0@merlin> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Hunter" To: Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 23:44 Subject: Re: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth > On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 11:09:30PM -0700, Merlin Graves wrote: > > > > > You gave him LOVECRAFT and you are complaining that he's too > > > > > young for CS Lewis and Vlad??!?!?!?!!! > > Lovecraft's not bad for that age group- I went on a Lovecraft binge when I > > was about that age and read everything the man ever published (everything > > I could find, anywho) No sex, not too terribly graphic (compared to a lot > > of the horror out these days), little if any foul language. Good kid fodder, > > if my somewhat fragile memory is holding up. Only danger I see if the kid > > might do what I did- chase down and try to read the Necronomicon > > I think this is a truly classic example of the modern parenting > fallacy -- that is, that sex, foul language, and gore are the > arbiters of childworthiness. > > I concede that Lovecraft did not write much that was focused on > those problematic topics. Yet, he DID write about horrifying, > supernatural beasts and terrible, scary consequences of man's > dealings with those beasts. He wrote about powers gained from > pacts with the inhuman, the hopelessness of humanity before an > unstoppable force far greater than they could even comprehend. > He wrote about the gruesome (if not gorey) consequences of > scientific experimentation, and the darkness of the human soul > to which we are all occasional victims. > > Is he a great writer? Hell yes. > > Is he suitable, or even comprehensible, to an 11 year old? Maybe > some, but certainly not most. > > -- > Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) > Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp > Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt > From mam at theworld.com Tue Nov 26 06:21:35 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:21:35 -0500 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, David Rodemaker wrote: [Mark M.] #> Well, yeah. Except that for Lewis, the Christian mythos is absolutely #> true about the universe. The fair question, as I see it, is: Did Lewis #> expect the series to hit people this way, or could he reasonably have #> expected it to? And if so, how did he feel about it? -- Not necessarily #> questions we can answer. # #The same argument could be made about LOTR, it's certainly as Christian as #Narnia is... Distinguo (as somebody quotes Lewis as typically saying to Tolkien, a term from their student debating days): I disagree. Narnia has the same Christ as our world (in the Christian view), and the betrayal, sacrifice, and resurrection, reenacted in different form in another world, all presented as illustration of the Christian story as Christians believe it to have occurred in our world. Tolkien's Middle-earth certainly has "the character who is never named and always present", as some critic has put it; that is, God. But unlike some, I do not see a particularly forceful Christian symbolism in such themes as loss (Frodo's finger), giving up something so that others may have it (Frodo's departure), or resurrection (Gandalf). To me, at least, these are universal tropes; they are all there in the soup of story, to borrow an image from Tolkien's essay "On fairy stories" (I may have the title wrong), and they are certainly not combined to form a presentation of the Christian story in anything like the way Lewis does it. Someone may have made a convincing demonstration somewhere that these elements do make a Christian theme in LotR... but even if that argument can be made, nobody has to do that for Lewis! He puts his Christian story together right on stage under the spotlights and thrusts it in your face. #The argument can be made that both T. and L. were Christian mystics (not in #the occult sense but in the religious one) I'll agree with that. # and were quite aware of what they were doing. That, too, but IMHO they weren't at all doing the same thing, in Christian terms. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Tue Nov 26 06:23:54 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:23:54 -0500 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, David Rodemaker wrote: #I can't think of medium-to-large 'sized' concept from Christianity that I #cannot find without difficulty in LOTR. Maybe, but in Narnia you don't have to go looking; you land hip-deep in them just walking down the main path! -- Mark A. Mandel From merlin at quickfinger.com Tue Nov 26 06:27:55 2002 From: merlin at quickfinger.com (Merlin Graves) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 07:27:55 -0700 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth Message-ID: <004e01c29558$03a99020$0202a8c0@merlin> > > I concede that Lovecraft did not write much that was focused on > > those problematic topics. Yet, he DID write about horrifying, > > supernatural beasts and terrible, scary consequences of man's > > dealings with those beasts. He wrote about powers gained from > > pacts with the inhuman, the hopelessness of humanity before an > > unstoppable force far greater than they could even comprehend. > > He wrote about the gruesome (if not gorey) consequences of > > scientific experimentation, and the darkness of the human soul > > to which we are all occasional victims. It is entirely possible that I am wrong, but I have always held the belief that these subjects are good points for younger kids, if they can grasp them (and most kids of average to average plus intelligence can, contrary to popular opinion). Consequences of dealing with "beasts": consequences of ones actions. Same with scientific experimentation. Darkness of the human spirit? Kids don't have any problem understanging that- look at the social dynamics of a group of kids. Dark? Absolutely! Comprehensible for an 11 year old? You might be suprised. Kids may get something different out of Lovecraft than an adult- I know my take on the books was a LOT different then than it is now- but they DO get something out of it, usually. If I had a child that age who wanted to read and was interested in horror, that is prolly what I'd hand them. Merlin From feaelin at kemenel.org Tue Nov 26 06:40:00 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 08:40:00 -0600 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: David Dyer-Bennet [mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net] > Sent: Monday, 2002 November 25 17:20 > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth > > Me too. They're very dated and male-centric, though. They're also > > difficult to find. Our library definitely doesn't have > them, and it > > took some effort on my part to pick up the five skylark > books I have. > > :) > > Now I'm interested; which previously-unknown skylark book do you have? > :-) A better question might be "what brain-eating disease do you have that randomly increments numbers?" :) What I have is the 4 Skylarks, and a D'Alembert. :) From feaelin at kemenel.org Tue Nov 26 06:50:26 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 08:50:26 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Nancy Thuleen [mailto:nthuleen at students.wisc.edu] > Sent: Monday, 2002 November 25 18:16 > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth > > completely EFP, as a young teen I did enjoy those Stasheff > "Warlock" books, though I can't really read them these days. I still like them now! Although, I may have worn them out completely. Stasheff was the "other" author that I would read the "entire" series, get to the end, switch to the other author, get to the end again, switch back. :) > :) I also really loved the Gandalara cycle by Randall > Garrett, but I think those are pretty hard to find now. They're awesome, but difficult to find. I keep hoping for a reprint before my copies self-destruct (I've read them many times now. :) From feaelin at kemenel.org Tue Nov 26 06:57:37 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 08:57:37 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Dennis Higbee [mailto:den at monger.net] > Sent: Monday, 2002 November 25 23:09 > To: Dragaera > Subject: RE: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth > > Yes, but at no point in the story does he TELL you that Gandalf is an > angel. You're left to find that if you wish. Or at least, a being with power on par (or more) with what is usually attributed to angels. In personality and methods, however, Mithrandir is not what one would usually think of when someone talks about angels. Hmm....which reminds me. Can anyone remember a book titled "Damiano's Lute"? One book of a trilogy that I can't remember the author or the other titles. I guess I should go look it up. :) From pgranzeau at cox.net Tue Nov 26 06:41:34 2002 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:41:34 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <20021125233623.GD427@infodancer.org> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20021125174435.01d95060@pop.east.cox.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20021125101509.01d9b6b0@pop.east.cox.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20021125101509.01d9b6b0@pop.east.cox.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20021125174435.01d95060@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20021126094028.01d8ecc0@pop.east.cox.net> At 17:36 11/25/2002 -0600, Matthew Hunter wrote: >I was *disgusted* with Jane Yolen. I got less than 3 >chapters in and already, by that point, the cliches had >piled up higher than I could stand. I get down on my knees ever night, and thank the Lord that I am not saddled with such a refined sense of literary taste. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From nthuleen at students.wisc.edu Tue Nov 26 07:09:55 2002 From: nthuleen at students.wisc.edu (Nancy Thuleen) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:09:55 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 8:57 -0600 26.11.2002, Davis, Iain E. wrote: > Hmm....which reminds me. Can anyone remember a book titled "Damiano's > Lute"? One book of a trilogy that I can't remember the author or the > other titles. I guess I should go look it up. :) MacAvoy! Roberta A. MacAvoy. I was going to recommend those in the Youth Fantasy category as well, although I think I didn't read them until 8th grade. She's a very talented author, IMHO, but she hasn't written a whole lot. There's also her Book of Kells, as well as a very hard-to-find "Nazhuret" series, and of course the Tea With a Black Dragon - Twisting the Rope set, in addition to the Damiano trilogy (Damiano, Damiano's Lute, Raphael). All, I would think, excellent for a young teen, though perhaps not quite an 11-year-old, depending on maturity level, of course. I *adored* the Damiano trilogy when I read it, but I haven't reread it in years, so I don't know how it stands up for an adult. - Nancy. From feaelin at kemenel.org Tue Nov 26 07:15:48 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:15:48 -0600 Subject: A different Track Message-ID: From: Nytemuse [mailto:nytemuse at auros.org] > reading, I don't watch TV, though. I DO listen to music, > preferably something that my brain perceives as "white noise" > (something familiar and not too distracting), if not white > noise itself. If I don't, any background noise will distract > me. I guess because I've trained my brain to multi-task? > And I live in an apartment complex with children and animals, > so there are MANY distractions. :) From: Matthew Hunter [mailto:matthew at infodancer.org] > Sometimes it helps, sometimes it hurts. It depends on how the > music complements the text, and how intrusive the music is. I > listen to very text-friendly music -- carefully chosen to occupy > a different part of my mental space than reading a book or > programming or writing does. Some kind of music or "white-noise" will help me doing non-fiction reading or study, programming, cleaning, etc. However, when writing I find it too distracting. When reading fiction, unless the book is especially unappealing, it doesn't matter what kind of external noise is going on. I tend to immerse completely, to the point I may not notice even if there are nearby explosions. :) From feaelin at kemenel.org Tue Nov 26 07:17:56 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:17:56 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Nancy Thuleen [mailto:nthuleen at students.wisc.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, 2002 November 26 9:10 > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth > MacAvoy! Roberta A. MacAvoy. I was going to recommend those That'd be the one. Other than being somewhat depressing, I found the trilogy to be excellent. I've not read any others by her. From rick at 404.978.org Tue Nov 26 07:25:12 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 10:25:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: A question on FHYA In-Reply-To: <1038284011.1161.35.camel@loiosh> References: <1038284011.1161.35.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: <1925.192.168.1.1.1038324312.squirrel@404.978.org> Jag said: > As best I can figure, Aliera hoped her arrest would lead to Adron taking > action. That's why she was so nonchalant about Khaavren coming to > arrest her. This was exactly how I read things. Aliera was trying to force her father's hand to break the stalemate. -Rick From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Tue Nov 26 07:28:37 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:28:37 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: Message-ID: <3DE39325.1060401@attbi.com> Patricia McKillip wrote these. They are explicitly theist, but not Christian. Speaking of religion in literature, one of the *many* things I love about David Weber's work is that the Christian church is very much present in Honor's universe. I get cranky when societies have total absence of religion--individuals may be athiests, but humans as a group are going to worship *something*. Mia From frank at exit.com Tue Nov 26 07:33:05 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 07:33:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <3DE39325.1060401@attbi.com> Message-ID: <200211261533.gAQFX5Ja042623@realtime.exit.com> Mia McDavid wrote: > Speaking of religion in literature, one of the *many* things I love > about David Weber's work is that the Christian church is very much > present in Honor's universe. I get cranky when societies have total > absence of religion--individuals may be athiests, but humans as a group > are going to worship *something*. Um. Why? Any particular reason or just your personal prejudice? (I don't mean that as an insult, I'm genuinely curious.) -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Tue Nov 26 07:34:11 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:34:11 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth References: Message-ID: <3DE39473.4080700@attbi.com> Dang!!! Pardon my previous post. Indeed it's MacAvoy. Sorry 'bout that. While checking my bookshelves, I dran across H. Beam Piper. He'd be good for kids, I think--Little Fuzzy would be a place to start. Did I mention Poul Anderson? His underlying worldview is pretty Norse--there's going to be a final battle and then darkness, but a lot of individual works are fine for kids. The Trouble Twisters and Satan's World, Tales of the Flying Moutains, Three Hearts and Three Lions . . . Mia From rick at 404.978.org Tue Nov 26 07:37:24 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 10:37:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: A different Track In-Reply-To: <20021126075738.GA9010@infodancer.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126000735.0258b930@localhost> <20021126075738.GA9010@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <1987.192.168.1.1.1038325044.squirrel@404.978.org> Matthew Hunter said: > On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 12:08:50AM -0800, Steven Brust > wrote: >> At 09:57 PM 11/25/2002 -0800, David Silberstein wrote: >> > "Listening to music while reading is like putting ketchup on >> steak." >> >What does that *mean*? I'm a vegetarian, so I don't really >> understand how ketchup affects steak. >> It means you are covering over the flavor of the steak, which is >> reasonable in the case of badly prepared steaks (although even then, >> you can certainly do better than ketchup). > > Ketchup is a very poor match for steak. Proper sauces can > contrast and combine with the flavor of the steak. Ketchup is > sufficiently strong and different to be jarring, dischordant, and > overwhelm the subtle flavorings. > >> >To the left, I do sometimes listen to music while reading, and I find >> that sometimes what I'm reading is so interesting that I start >> >ignoring the music, and sometimes the music is so compelling that I >> no longer give the text my full attention. >> Yes. Exactly. > > Sometimes it helps, sometimes it hurts. It depends on how the > music complements the text, and how intrusive the music is. I > listen to very text-friendly music -- carefully chosen to occupy > a different part of my mental space than reading a book or > programming or writing does. Programming with music - Yes. Reading with music - No. A well-written work creates its own sort of background score in my head... it doesn't need any other music to compete with, if I'd even notice what was going on in the background. I'm known among my friends for not even hearing them speak (unless they're in my range of vision or speaking loudly) when I'm engrossed in a good book. Likewise, if something/someone creates enough of a distraction to actually make me notice it/them, I'm more likely to be mildly annoyed than pleased at the disturbance.* -Rick * Some methods of interruption are ALWAYS welcome, and left up to the reader. From mbogen at stagnito.com Tue Nov 26 07:36:57 2002 From: mbogen at stagnito.com (Matt Bogen) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:36:57 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <200211261533.gAQFX5Ja042623@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: Seems to me that humans, no matter where they have evolved, have worshipped something - whether animist spirits, ancestors, or creating a polytheist or monotheist system. Humans want some explanation for what's out there, something beyond our immediate tactile knowledge. And no matter how far out in space humans go, these influences will follow - whether individual characters believe them or not - because they are human. Alien races have their own problems to deal with. :) - matt bogen -----Original Message----- From: Frank Mayhar [mailto:frank at exit.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 9:33 AM To: Mia McDavid Cc: Dragaera Subject: Re: Damiano's Lute Mia McDavid wrote: > Speaking of religion in literature, one of the *many* things I love > about David Weber's work is that the Christian church is very much > present in Honor's universe. I get cranky when societies have total > absence of religion--individuals may be athiests, but humans as a group > are going to worship *something*. Um. Why? Any particular reason or just your personal prejudice? (I don't mean that as an insult, I'm genuinely curious.) -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From mneme at io.com Tue Nov 26 07:51:06 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:51:06 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <3DE39325.1060401@attbi.com> References: <3DE39325.1060401@attbi.com> Message-ID: <15843.39018.386458.32635@hagbard.io.com> Mia McDavid writes: >Patricia McKillip wrote these. They are explicitly theist, but not >Christian. You Mean the _Damiano's Lute_ books? Er...no. R. A. MacAvoy wrote those. Patricia McKillip wrote a fot of things, and with the exception of _Fool's Run_, they all kick much ass...but her only "trilogy" is _Riddlemaster_. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From chrislee at neo.rr.com Tue Nov 26 07:57:07 2002 From: chrislee at neo.rr.com (chris cunningham) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 10:57:07 -0500 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth References: <000501c29544$5a938fd0$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> Message-ID: <011301c29564$7a27eba0$2b20d118@neo.rr.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Tiller" To: ; "'Peter H. Granzeau'" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 7:07 AM Subject: RE: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth > > On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, Matthew Hunter wrote: > > > > #You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it > means. > > Yes, but the word was unbeleivable. > My name is Inego Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die! "inconceivable!" also, isn't the name "inigo"? chris cunningham From RuhlenR at missouri.edu Tue Nov 26 07:58:06 2002 From: RuhlenR at missouri.edu (Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student)) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:58:06 -0600 Subject: A different Track Message-ID: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E0124553C@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Castello [mailto:rick at 404.978.org] > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 9:37 AM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: A different Track > A well-written work creates its own sort of background score > in my head... it doesn't need any other music to compete with, > if I'd even notice what was going on in the background. Sometimes silence can be more distracting than a little background noise. Rachel From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Tue Nov 26 08:04:36 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 10:04:36 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: <200211261533.gAQFX5Ja042623@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <3DE39B94.9030402@attbi.com> In our previous conversation: Mia McDavid wrote: >> Speaking of religion in literature, one of the *many* things I love >> about David Weber's work is that the Christian church is very much >> present in Honor's universe. I get cranky when societies have total >> absence of religion--individuals may be athiests, but humans as a >group >> are going to worship *something*. >Um. Why? Any particular reason or just your personal prejudice? (I >don't >mean that as an insult, I'm genuinely curious.) >-- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting >http://www.gpsclock.com/ It is, in fact, part of my belief system. However, I also point to the fact that, historically, societies *do* have religions. Whether the *government* is religious or not, people worship. Greeks, Romans, Hindus, Jews, African Animists, Christians, Muslims, Shinto, NeoPagan, Materialist, SuperPatriot--it is in human nature to follow the call of a higher power, whether we call it God, or the Ancestors, or the Forest Spirit, or the Destiny of America. Individuals may be athiests, but humans as a group are religious creatures. Mia From fides at kludgeco.com Tue Nov 26 08:24:48 2002 From: fides at kludgeco.com (fides) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:24:48 +0000 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126000405.0258d080@localhost> Message-ID: <3DE3A050.6050904@kludgeco.com> Steven Brust wrote: >> Hmmmm... >> >> I don't know about that... >> >> Whenever I use, or have seen squick used it has a sexual connotation. > > > Whenever I've either heard or used the term, it has been related to an > activity that is sexual to at least some people. On the other hand, I'm > having trouble coming up with an actifity that isn't sexual to at least > some people. I have seen it used with reference to violence ("if violence squicks you then don't read this..."). And by that I mean non-sexual violence. I had always assumed that it was used about anything that made you go "eeek" and shut the browser window very fast. However the context I know it from *cough*fanfiction*cough* tends to be quite elastic in it's use of terminology with one term meaning one thing in one fandom and one thing in another. I think most terms are slowly becoming less and less precise in there meaning. ;-) Fides P.S. I don't know if it necessarly counts as fantasy: Roald Dahl. Fun for kids of all ages. And since you are counting votes: My little Bro who is 12 is reading the adult Pratchett and loving them (although I don't think he gets all the jokes). I second Stasheff especially the earlier Warlock books and, if you can get hold of them, the The Starship Trooper series (about a group of actors. Not to be confused with any other books involving the words 'Starship' and 'Troopers') Early Robert Asprin. Especially the Phule series. Guy Gavriel Kay - The Fionavar Tapestry Trilogy (can't remember how kiddie friendly they are) Susan Cooper's Dark is Rising series Kipling - Espec Puck of Pooks Hill etc Alan Garner - The Wierdstone of Brisingamen etc (based on Arthur legend) Tolkien - Most of my friends (and myself) had read or been read LotR by that point, the rest can't stand the language even now. Harry Harrison - Stainless Steel Rat books especially Douglas Adams Eddings - At that age you don't care Redwall - Haven't read it but my little bro loves it Mary H. Herbert - Valorian & Dark Horse Also, I don't think anyone has mentioned, The Hounds of the Morrigan by Pat O'Shea. As the name suggests it is based in Irish Mythology. When he is a bit older then: Mervyn Peake - Ghormangast (what my SO was being read while I was being read Tolkien) Anne McCaffery (there isn't that much sex, or possibly I just don't notice any more). Sheri S. Tepper - Espec True Game (but I think it's out of print) Ursula Le Guin - Personally Tombs was my favourite but the early Earthsea books are great Maybe Mercedes Lackey (another set I think is more aimed at girls but then I think why should books be for girls just because they have strong female lead characters). Lackey is pretty much pulp fantasy (especially the Valdemar series) and the early books are better than the latter ones (I'm biased since I don't think she's topped her Last Herald-Mage trilogy) but the later ones are probably more kiddy friendly. Not to be read by the narrow minded and check the blurbs - some of them deal with some quite nasty topics even if it's 'off page' (I hadn't actually realised how much until I started writing this.) . There is also Bedlam Boyz by Eleen Guon set in the Mercedes Lack/other 'elves in modern day' setting. It and other books can be found free at the Baen Free Library (http://www.baen.com/library/). Simon R. Green - The first one 'Blue Moon Rising' is probably fine for early teen but the later books have a fair amount of violence (for fair amount read a lot). Some of them have an annoying and really out of place Christian insertion but it's mostly ignorable and it's only in his later books. His Sci-Fi stuff is also good and a good way of bridging the fantasy/sci-fi bridge. The Dragonlance and Forgotton Realms books. (Salvatore has a lot to answer for but I like Drizzt. Preferably presented to me naked and... *cough* anyway). Of course if we are including books based on RPGs then some of the Shadowrun books were very good. Peter Morwood - some violence, small amount of sex (mostly off-page as I recall). The Warlord's Domain is a darker but your chances of getting hold of a copy are very small. His books based on Russian legends aren't quite as good (imho) but I think are much more kiddy friendly (in content). Alan Dean Foster - O.K. his stuff is a bit variable. R A. MacAvoy - Tea With a Black Dragon etc (Didn't like Damino's Lute for some reason but loved the dragon books) I loved the Ridlemaster of Hed trilogy (swiped them from my parent went I moved out). Raymond E Feist Magician Trio and the X of the Empire trilogy. David Gemmel Zelazney Moorcock And... Darn - I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion. Signing off before I think of any more... F From feaelin at kemenel.org Tue Nov 26 08:45:04 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 10:45:04 -0600 Subject: A different Track Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student) > Sent: Tuesday, 2002 November 26 9:58 > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE: A different Track > Sometimes silence can be more distracting than a little > background noise. Bah! You're just afraind that if it is too quiet, you'll hear those voices in your head! :) From agrajag at dragaera.net Tue Nov 26 08:46:46 2002 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 26 Nov 2002 11:46:46 -0500 Subject: A question on FHYA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1038329206.1158.11.camel@loiosh> On Tue, 2002-11-26 at 03:17, David Silberstein wrote: > On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Andrew Bailey wrote: > > >David Silberstein wrote: > >> Note: spoilers below. > >> > >> > > Yet another possibility - Aliera deliberately refrained from > communicating because she wanted her father to attack, and not send a > rescue operation (which he might have done if he knew the specifics of > where she was being held, and of her impending execution). That's what I was thinking of at first. However, Aliera knew what spell Adron had in store. And I also feel its safe to assume that 1) Aliera asked Mario to free her from prison, and 2) Aliera asked Mario to actully kill the Emperor. Given this, it seems to be a mis-step on Aliera's part[1][2] that she did not think what would happen if her father was using his spell when the Emperor was killed. Perhaps talking to her father before her arrest could have prevented the Disaster. Also, something that quite a few people seem to be forgetting is that Aliera knew she was going to be arrested. When Khaavren came to arrest her, she simply asked him what took so long. There was plenty of time (a matter of hours) during which she knew she would be arrested and could have easily spoken with Adron then if she'd wished, no matter what stones are or aren't in the prison. [1] She is a young Dragonlord afterall. [2] Yes, it does pain me to think of Aliera as partially responsible. Jag From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Tue Nov 26 09:06:50 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:06:50 -0600 Subject: A question on FHYA References: <3DE317F0.3020405@networkharmoni.com.au> <3DE3231D.2000603@networkharmoni.com.au> <3DE332D9.7090502@networkharmoni.com.au> Message-ID: Andrew Bailey wrote: > Gametech wrote: >> Andrew Bailey wrote: >> > >> >> We don't have enough evidence because the reason wasn't written to >> begin with, even if we have several sources of confirming evidence >> it still isn't cannon because we the reader made the connection not >> explicitly Steve. I'm satisfied that the reasonability that there >> would be phoenix stone (black) in the new prisons is a good theory >> because it is in fact a reason for why they couldn't if they did in >> fact try, I don't particularly care if they did try and failed that >> is all speculation but the fact that they didn't communicate at >> least to our knowledge is why this question was brought up in the >> first place. >> > > Very very true. > >> >> >> >> >> *However, earlier in the book it is noted that Adron and Aliera are >> *capable of psionic communication with each other. So, this leads >> me to *wonder, why didn't Aliera just tell her father what happened? >> >> >> >> Either because she couldn't or because as you said she didn't want >> to tell him why. I think it is more likely she couldn't than didn't >> try. >> > > Fair enough. > >> >> >> *And why >> *didn't Adron try to communicate with Aliera to ask her? >> >> >> >> Either he did and failed, didn't because he knew it wouldn't work or >> didn't because he didn't want to know because he could have acted >> more angry if he didn't know (I doubt that last one heavily because >> he likely had a guess even if he was way off and a man like Adron >> seems like the type to stay informed and verify his guess.) >> > > Ok I kind of agree with that. I could be reading to much into his > statement where he says to the effect "I'll find out when I get > there". > > I also find if very hard to believe that Ardon could guess that Aliera > was imprisoned 'cause she helped an assasin get away. There are other > things that she could have done that are more obvious to Ardons point > of view. > > Oh deffinately I don't think he had a clue but I said "he likely had a guess even if he was way off " I very much doubt he knew but he'd have an idea and he'd check into it >> Lastly it being two different types of architectures is I think is >> beside the point becuase the stones just sit around anyway it's like >> saying well you live in a tudor and I live in a victorian but I'll >> bet you we both have a toilet becuase it's something that makes >> logistical sense to be there. The stones aren't just there for >> decoration (unless Steve is being devious) They were there to block >> communication, Oh and lastly even if psionic communication is rare >> between people it is the way in which you'd communicate to your >> patron diety so if nothing else it would block communication of some >> variety that is to say the person couldn't pray to thier god to save >> them (this tidbit of information is shared by vlad in I believe Orca) >> > Ok the point about architecture is not a point about architecture but > more a point about technology. I probably didn't put it very well. > > Also there is an implicit assumption that the dragerians knew that > black phoenix stone stops psionics. I can't remember any evidence > that they did during the timeframe of FYA, again of course I could be > wrong. > > Also there is no mention of stones set into the wall in the TPG scene > where Katana e'M'archala and Tazenrda are painting on the wall. > However that is not conclusive as A) Aliera may have been in a > special cell and B) absence of description does not mean something > isn't there. On the other hand Parfi does like to go into quite a lot > of detail:) > >> Alas nothing else I must say that if I *had* to pick a specific >> reason why there was no communication between the two I'd pick the >> one that made the most sense, and was less obscure. That is up to >> the individual reader to decide > > I just like the idea of Ardon choosing not to know, it suits my > reading of his character more. Proper. > Andrew. From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Nov 26 09:08:07 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:08:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: Mark Tiller's message <000601c29545$16f0ff50$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> of 26 November 2002 References: <000601c29545$16f0ff50$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> Message-ID: <15843.43639.743389.164607@gw.dd-b.net> Mark Tiller writes on 26 November 2002 at 12:12:28 -0000 > >The *are* in many clear ways male-centric, and at least one friend > >simply can't read them for that reason. On the other > >hand, it was in one of the Skylark books that Dorothy insists on > >strapping on her guns and going with Seaton on a critical > >mission, and makes him accept it, and makes him acknowledge afterwards > >that that was where she belonged. Even though they > >had a young child (left with safe reliable people at the time). > > And in the 2 Galaxy Primes books, the males & females are equal. The > female Earth prime is (what would now be called agressively feminist). > It didn't strike me when I first read the books, because the Women's lib > movement was just getting started. The books were however quite old > even then. Yes, that's true. That was one of his later books (1959 magazine publication). (And unless there's a Doc Smith book I've never heard of, there was only on Galaxy Primes book.) Same thing in the Subspace books, actually. Even in Spacehounds of IPC (1931), the woman goes out and hunts (with a 100-lb bow) while the man forges civilization >from scratch. All mixed in with some of the most appalling romantic love clap-trap it has ever been my pleasure to read. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Nov 26 09:15:28 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 26 Nov 2002 11:15:28 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <3DE39325.1060401@attbi.com> References: <3DE39325.1060401@attbi.com> Message-ID: Mia McDavid writes: > Patricia McKillip wrote these. They are explicitly theist, but not > Christian. > > Speaking of religion in literature, one of the *many* things I love > about David Weber's work is that the Christian church is very much > present in Honor's universe. I get cranky when societies have total > absence of religion--individuals may be athiests, but humans as a > group are going to worship *something*. I get cranky when far-future societies have anything recognizable as religion, personally. Makes no sense it would last that long. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Nov 26 09:16:09 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 26 Nov 2002 11:16:09 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Matt Bogen" writes: > Seems to me that humans, no matter where they have evolved, have worshipped > something - whether animist spirits, ancestors, or creating a polytheist or > monotheist system. Humans want some explanation for what's out there, > something beyond our immediate tactile knowledge. And no matter how far out > in space humans go, these influences will follow - whether individual > characters believe them or not - because they are human. Alien races have > their own problems to deal with. :) But eventually we will learn to look for our explanations in ways more likely to produce the truth. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From mtiller at ntlworld.com Tue Nov 26 08:11:33 2002 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:11:33 -0000 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: <000501c29544$5a938fd0$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> Message-ID: <000001c29566$84cff820$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> Oops! my apologies all , I misremembered, the word was inconceivable :-( -----Original Message----- From: Mark Tiller [mailto:mtiller at ntlworld.com] Sent: 26 November 2002 12:07 To: matthew at infodancer.org; 'Peter H. Granzeau' Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: RE: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth > On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, Matthew Hunter wrote: > > #You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Yes, but the word was unbeleivable. My name is Inego Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die! From ajmcguigan at yahoo.com Tue Nov 26 09:18:59 2002 From: ajmcguigan at yahoo.com (Andrew McGuigan) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:18:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021126171859.66503.qmail@web12707.mail.yahoo.com> What if the truth *is* that there are really god(s)? Certainly it makes sense to write about that possibility as any other. Also, it seems we had some kind of religion for what, 5000 years? (Egyptians being 3000 B.C. I believe) So why not in the far future? Andrew --- David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > "Matt Bogen" writes: > > > Seems to me that humans, no matter where they have > evolved, have worshipped > > something - whether animist spirits, ancestors, or > creating a polytheist or > > monotheist system. Humans want some explanation > for what's out there, > > something beyond our immediate tactile knowledge. > And no matter how far out > > in space humans go, these influences will follow - > whether individual > > characters believe them or not - because they are > human. Alien races have > > their own problems to deal with. :) > > But eventually we will learn to look for our > explanations in ways more > likely to produce the truth. > -- > David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / > http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ > John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site > http://john.dyer-bennet.net > Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Nov 26 09:19:45 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 26 Nov 2002 11:19:45 -0600 Subject: A question on FHYA In-Reply-To: <3DE3231D.2000603@networkharmoni.com.au> References: <3DE317F0.3020405@networkharmoni.com.au> <3DE3231D.2000603@networkharmoni.com.au> Message-ID: Andrew Bailey writes: > Gametech wrote: > > > > Ok firstly, I think that there is a likleyhood that psionics were > blocked, I am just stating that we do not have any real proof. > And anyway I kinda like the idea that they didn't rather than > they couldn't. > > > Even if it is the most likely conclusion? If Adron Knew that was good enough > > for him to inquire to Aliera, From the way I gathered things if Aliera said > > 'Daddy I helped a Jhereg Assassin that wants to kill the Emperor out' I > > doubt he'd have been reprimanding her, or at least I think that Aliera > > wouldn't fail to tell her father because she was embarrassed.. err.. is > > Aliera capable of being embarrassed?, heh. > > True, but Dragons tend to get funny about assination. But then again > I don't understand Dragons. I can't resist; in this context that could have been intended to say "assignation" or "assassination". Either one pretty much fits :-) -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From rsuitor at cjwrfs.net Tue Nov 26 09:20:33 2002 From: rsuitor at cjwrfs.net (Richard Suitor) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:20:33 -0500 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <200211261533.gAQFX5Ja042623@realtime.exit.com> References: <3DE39325.1060401@attbi.com> <200211261533.gAQFX5Ja042623@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <3h97uu0brbgd3162mrl6rip6dcs0d8bm4m@4ax.com> On Tue, 26 Nov 2002 07:33:05 -0800 (PST), Frank Mayhar wrote: >Mia McDavid wrote: >> Speaking of religion in literature, one of the *many* things I love >> about David Weber's work is that the Christian church is very much >> present in Honor's universe. I get cranky when societies have total >> absence of religion--individuals may be athiests, but humans as a group >> are going to worship *something*. >Um. Why? Any particular reason or just your personal prejudice? (I don't >mean that as an insult, I'm genuinely curious.) 1. There are some things that science can't answer, even in principle. 2. There are other things that in principle might be answered but aren't, because: A. Nobody understands the principles yet. B. Somebody professes to understand the principles, but the person involved doesn't understand. C. The principles might be understood, but not enough data is available yet - e.g. do I believe my (boss, employee, spouse, child, parent, neighbor) when I am told such and such? Am I (physically, mentally, emotionally) able to accomplish such and such? What will the (financial picture, resource picture, political picture) be in the future that I must plan for? I submit that to the person that doesn't understand, as in A and B, there is no operational difference between a scientist and a priest. The current flap over the Bogdanoffs' theses represents an extreme case of how limited the range of distinction can be. I am *not* presenting the Bogdanoffs as "priests" - I am saying that only a few people know enough to feel certain about their reasoning and the rest of us don't have the time and ability to come to a reliable opinion. Therefore most of us take much of science on the same sort of informed faith basis that the devout take the teachings of their faith. That in case C, the only approach is an informed faith. That given the observed spread in ability and access to training, a large percentage of the population is getting information from people who are operationally priests and they are making significant decisions based on informed faith. There are some other characteristics of the human psyche that play a role, but I think the above is sufficient for religions to develop. I'd be tempted to classify most economic and social theories as religions - i.e. the basic tenets are based on an informed faith. Notice I haven't mentioned a Supreme Being until now. I obviously don't consider that a necessary part of what I mean by a religion. Extrapolating the development of science backwards, I don't consider it odd that many religions developed such, but the question you asked might be extrapolated forward, also. I could conceive of a society without a culture based around a Supreme Being - I could not conceive of a society of evolutionary intelligent beings without religions. Richard From loki at twwol.dyndns.org Tue Nov 26 09:22:11 2002 From: loki at twwol.dyndns.org (Loki) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:22:11 -0400 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126000405.0258d080@localhost> Message-ID: On 11/26/02 4:06 AM, "Steven Brust" wrote: > ... I'm > having trouble coming up with an actifity that isn't sexual to at least > some people. Bing! Welcome to the sigfile quote rotation, Mr. Brust. :) Well, except that I fixed the spelling. -- Problems Defining the Phrase "Sexual Activity": I'm having trouble coming up with an activity that isn't sexual to at least some people. --- Steven Brust From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Nov 26 09:24:33 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:24:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth Message-ID: <200211261724.gAQHOSu16900@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Come on! All Lovecraft has is a few insane people, gibbering faceless > horrors, and High Priest Cthuthu manipulating the world. What's the > harm in that. > > I bet old Morollan's got a beat up copy of the Necronomicon in his study > somewhere. LOL... Great. Next time the Lords of Judgement gather, I'm going to keep an eye out for a Great Old One amoung the other Gods... Of course, with the overcast, how can Morollan know when the stars are right? Cthulhu 2004 - Why vote for the lesser evil? :) Chris (Die-hard Lovecraft fan...:) "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Nov 26 09:25:05 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 26 Nov 2002 11:25:05 -0600 Subject: Donaldson (was RE: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20021126091300.00ad0658@pop.softhome.net> References: <5.1.0.14.1.20021126091300.00ad0658@pop.softhome.net> Message-ID: Tucker writes: > >I'm curious. A question especially for those who responded strongly to my > >recommendation for the Covenant series, how old were you when you read them, > >if you recall. > > Um. Eleven? Fifth grade, I think. Any subtleties were basically > incomprehensible (meaning I Missed The Point Entirely) but I read them > anyway. > I wouldn't have recommended Donaldson to myself at that age, but I > hadn't quite reached the point where I could walk into a > bookstore/library and start on a new author on my own, and someone > else recommended him. I'm sure I was picking new authors on my own at 9. Maybe earlier. Until I was in 8th grade, I wasn't around anybody else who was into fantasy and SF, so I didn't get many suggestions. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From chrislee at neo.rr.com Tue Nov 26 09:30:03 2002 From: chrislee at neo.rr.com (chris cunningham) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:30:03 -0500 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth References: Message-ID: <014601c29571$7453fea0$2b20d118@neo.rr.com> From: "Casey Rousseau" >I'm curious. A question especially for those who responded strongly to my >recommendation for the Covenant series, how old were you when you read them, >if you recall. I, for example, do not recall the rape scene mentioned by >someone as being at the begining of the first one - Lord Foul's Bane - >although I think I do remember a human sacrifice. It has been many years >since I went back an reread this one. Ususally I'll start with The Illearth >War if I want to dip back into it. I definitely read them before The One >Tree came out in April of '82 which means I was not yet 12 and may have been >only 10 when I started reading these. ah, the memories that this has dredged up. summer of 1977, i think; was 11 and my mom somehow scraped the money together to allow me to buy whatever i wanted from the scifi book club. mainly bought collections, like _again dangerous visions_ and _epoch_, most of which went right over my head, but i also recall sitting outside of our soon-to-be-condemned one-bedroom house, on the front porch sofa, reading _lord foul's bane_, my first or second fantasy book. the other was _sword of shannara_ which was the first non-children's book that disappointed me. recall being boggled by this, that a book might not be *good*. but as for covenant, loved it. hated the main character, thought that was odd, that the main character could be someone not likeable; but loved the world, and all the other characters: saltheart foamfollower and lord mhoram most of all. was asked a couple of years back if there were any fictional characters that i could see myself as, in the place of, and struggled, couldn't think of any at first: corwin, vlad, elric, etc....i'm not like any of these people. but then remembered the lord mhoram. ah, have to reread them now :) and i recall being fourteen, in freshman english, the teacher/football coach called away from class because football trumped english, and my best friend bemoaning the lack of series in progress, saying all the great series were finished: _dune_, _foundation_, etc. (back when there were only three of each of those, and no sequels yet in sight) and i was able to pipe in with donaldson and chalker. he did, iirc, get into _the well of souls_, but had no interest in fantasy. i recall waiting impatiently for _the one tree_ to arrive, and then being floored by what lord foul had done to the land, so terrible and enthralling. remember several friends in high school telling me that they couldn't finish _lord foul's bane_, and my giving them what became a stock reply: "yes, yes, covenant's an asshole, but...", and prevailing upon them, sometimes successfully, to continue reading. and lying on the floor of my dorm room in korea in 1985, listening to my new old zeppelin records and rereading the series, because ketchup goes with everything. ah, a million pardons for my dreadful nostalgification, but, come to think of it, i wouldn't recommend these either, not in this situation. although, it does have a pro-theistic point, in that covenant was chosen by the creator, who had hope that he could defeat lord foul. this is another of my favorite things about the series, that the person to pass from our world to the land would have to be acceptable to both the creator and his enemy, someone that lord foul would believe to be corruptable, but that the creator would believe to be redeemable. one last memory, apologies again to whoever might still be reading, remember telling people that "yes, it's a terrible book, perhaps poorly written, too, but it's also a great book." had forgotten that, even though that's how i describe _atlas shrugged_, nowadays. appy polly loggies, chris cunningham From casey at trinityhartford.org Tue Nov 26 09:29:29 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:29:29 -0500 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark wrote: > A stepbrother has no genetic relationship to you and should not be > confused with a half-brother (hyphen required, IMHO), who is the son of > one of your parents but not the other. This situation typically arises > when someone who has a child by a previous marriage remarries and has a > child with the new spouse. The children of the remarried person, by the > different marriages, are each other's half-siblings. > > "Full brother" can be used to refer to a male who is the (genetic) son > of both the people who are your (genetic) parents, to distinguish him > from a half- or step-brother. One note from personal experience that the more frequently you can drop the step or half- when referring to your brother, the better your relationship will be. It may be necessary occasionally for clarification, but most people don't need to know that my brother and I don't share the same mother. Either they know it from some other context or it is irrelevant to most discussions. "So, how come your brother's so [good looking/smart/different/tall/skinny/athletic/intellectual]?" "What am I, chopped liver?" "Oh, No. It's just..." "Yeah, I know. He's my half-brother." "Oh, that explains it." From chrislee at neo.rr.com Tue Nov 26 09:39:26 2002 From: chrislee at neo.rr.com (chris cunningham) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:39:26 -0500 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: <20021126171859.66503.qmail@web12707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <016501c29572$c3ed14a0$2b20d118@neo.rr.com> From: "Andrew McGuigan" > What if the truth *is* that there are really god(s)? then, obviously, we team up with them and destroy the jenoine. chris cunningham From jalipaz at stanford.edu Tue Nov 26 09:42:37 2002 From: jalipaz at stanford.edu (Julie Alipaz) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:42:37 -0800 Subject: Music and books In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > >To the left, I do sometimes listen to music while reading, and I find >that sometimes what I'm reading is so interesting that I start >ignoring the music, and sometimes the music is so compelling that I no >longer give the text my full attention. Some people have spoken of a >particular piece of music being a good "soundtrack" for a particular >written work, but I have not yet found such an example that works for >me. Steven King's Talisamn (Sp?) and the best of the doors double CD--- I don't read King, except for this novel, and I was in a remote place with limited choices, but the doors album fits absolutely perfectly. JAA p.s. I agree drop the youth fiction lines -- Department of Biological Sciences Palumbi Lab Hopkins Marine Station of Stanford University Blinks Oceanview Blvd Pacific Grove, Ca 93950 jalipaz at stanford.edu phone: 831-655-6210 Often statistics are used as drunken men use lampposts... for support rather than illumination. Albert Einstein From chrislee at neo.rr.com Tue Nov 26 09:48:16 2002 From: chrislee at neo.rr.com (chris cunningham) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:48:16 -0500 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: Message-ID: <018c01c29574$0034cb00$2b20d118@neo.rr.com> From: "Matt Bogen" > Seems to me that humans, no matter where they have evolved, have worshipped > something - whether animist spirits, ancestors, or creating a polytheist or > monotheist system. Humans want some explanation for what's out there, > something beyond our immediate tactile knowledge. And no matter how far out > in space humans go, these influences will follow - whether individual > characters believe them or not - because they are human. Alien races have > their own problems to deal with. :) agreed. tiger gotta hunt bird gotta fly man got to ask himself "why, why, why?" tiger gotta sleep bird gotta land man got to tell himself he understand. -- kurt vonnegut chris cunningham, who may have not gotten the poem verbatim :) From jalipaz at stanford.edu Tue Nov 26 09:46:06 2002 From: jalipaz at stanford.edu (Julie Alipaz) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:46:06 -0800 Subject: A question on FHYA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > >I'd fugure a teleport block at least, and a damn good one. I wonder if any teleport blocks could keep Daymar in prison? -- Department of Biological Sciences Palumbi Lab Hopkins Marine Station of Stanford University Blinks Oceanview Blvd Pacific Grove, Ca 93950 jalipaz at stanford.edu phone: 831-655-6210 Often statistics are used as drunken men use lampposts... for support rather than illumination. Albert Einstein From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Nov 26 09:50:08 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:50:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > I get cranky when far-future societies have anything recognizable as > religion, personally. Makes no sense it would last that long. Now, as a die-hard skeptic and militant agnostic, I'd *like* to agree with you, but... Why do you think we, as a species, would have no religion in the far-future? Up to now, it seems to be going strong, and we've been around and evolving (well, SOME of us have been evolving:) for what, twenty thousand years, give or take? (I'm not sure exactly how long homo sapiens have been conducting religious practices...:) But I'm curious as to why you think it would be gone... Chris (Who's always willing to discuss the taboo topics...:>) "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, son." - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm From jalipaz at stanford.edu Tue Nov 26 09:55:18 2002 From: jalipaz at stanford.edu (Julie Alipaz) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:55:18 -0800 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: <000501c29544$5a938fd0$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> References: <000501c29544$5a938fd0$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> Message-ID: > > >Yes, but the word was unbeleivable. >My name is Inego Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die! actually, inconcieveable From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Nov 26 09:56:31 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:56:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: A question on FHYA Message-ID: <200211261756.gAQHuQu22863@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > I wonder if any teleport blocks could keep Daymar in prison? They could, at least for awhile. And I'd bet that Sethra could put a block up that would keep Daymar out... But I recall, in Dragon, that Daymar was blocked from teleporting out of the final battle. (Though he DID say to give him half an hour and he might be able to bust through...) Chris "He is a lover of his country who rebukes and does not excuse its sins." - Frederick Douglass From nytemuse at auros.org Tue Nov 26 09:57:22 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:57:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote: > But unlike some, I do not see a particularly forceful Christian > symbolism in such themes as loss (Frodo's finger), giving up something > so that others may have it (Frodo's departure), or resurrection > (Gandalf). Hey! Not all of us have finished the LotR trilogy! True, I'm working my way through it (slowly), but I hadn't gotten to the finger part...*pout* Spoiler space next time, please? ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU Tue Nov 26 10:01:35 2002 From: goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (David Goldfarb) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 10:01:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth Message-ID: <200211261801.gAQI1Zm08371@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> >Hey! Not all of us have finished the LotR trilogy! True, I'm working my >way through it (slowly), but I hadn't gotten to the finger part...*pout* >Spoiler space next time, please? Um, I'm sorry, but if we have to use spoiler space for classic works of literature that are a half-century old, then we have to use spoiler space for EVERYTHING; and in my humble opinion that is just not reasonable. (I'm envisioning putting in spoiler space before talking about how Jesus came back from the dead....) -- David Goldfarb <*>|"Get your mind out of the gutter -- you're blocking goldfarb at ocf.berkeley.edu | my snorkel." goldfarb at csua.berkeley.edu | -- Frank Ney, on rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Nov 26 10:02:19 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:02:19 -0600 (CST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: Chris Olson - SunPS's message <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> of 26 November 2002 References: <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <15843.46891.246035.618358@gw.dd-b.net> Chris Olson - SunPS writes on 26 November 2002 at 09:50:08 -0800 > > I get cranky when far-future societies have anything recognizable as > > religion, personally. Makes no sense it would last that long. > > Now, as a die-hard skeptic and militant agnostic, I'd > *like* to agree with you, but... > > Why do you think we, as a species, would have no religion in the > far-future? Up to now, it seems to be going strong, and we've > been around and evolving (well, SOME of us have been evolving:) > for what, twenty thousand years, give or take? (I'm not sure exactly > how long homo sapiens have been conducting religious practices...:) It's going strong *here*, and in a lot of third-world places, but it's remarkably dead throughout the rest of the developed world. We're kind of an outlier. > But I'm curious as to why you think it would be gone... Partly optimism, partly that it is so clearly counter-productive. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Nov 26 10:03:28 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 10:03:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth Message-ID: <200211261803.gAQI3Nu24476@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Hey! Not all of us have finished the LotR trilogy! True, I'm working my > way through it (slowly), but I hadn't gotten to the finger part...*pout* > Spoiler space next time, please? Oh, you haven't? Well, Frodo teams up with Sauron to create the Dynamic Duo of Evil, and they tromp all over Middle Earth, destroying everything in their path (with the exception of Tom Bombadil, cause he's cool). Then they high-tail it over to Narnia, Pern, and a few other places, before they both get off'ed by some mustached human with a flying lizard on his shoulder... Sorry, hope I didn't spoil anything... Chris (ducking for cover) "You will be required to do wrong no matter where you go. It is the basic condition of life, to be required to violate your own identity. At some time, every creature which lives must do so. It is the ultimate shadow, the defeat of creation; this is the curse at work, the curse that feeds on all life. Everywhere in the universe." - "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" - Philip K. Dick From nytemuse at auros.org Tue Nov 26 10:05:28 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 10:05:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <3DE39325.1060401@attbi.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Mia McDavid wrote: > Speaking of religion in literature, one of the *many* things I love > about David Weber's work is that the Christian church is very much > present in Honor's universe. I get cranky when societies have total > absence of religion--individuals may be athiests, but humans as a group > are going to worship *something*. *shrug* I just always assumed that unless the characters specifically said there was no god/religion, it was just behind the scenes and deemed not terribly important to the story, or too complicated to be worth getting into. But in response to the last statement, couldn't humans worship/believe in themselves, and thus appear to be atheists? ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From nytemuse at auros.org Tue Nov 26 10:07:53 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 10:07:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <3h97uu0brbgd3162mrl6rip6dcs0d8bm4m@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Richard Suitor wrote: > I submit that to the person that doesn't understand, as in A and B, there is > no operational difference between a scientist and a priest. Well, except for the fact that a scientist is, for the most part, perfectly happy to be proven wrong. I've never seen a priest react that way. :) ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From chrislee at neo.rr.com Tue Nov 26 10:14:34 2002 From: chrislee at neo.rr.com (chris cunningham) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:14:34 -0500 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth References: <200211261803.gAQI3Nu24476@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <01b901c29577$ac82df20$2b20d118@neo.rr.com> From: "Chris Olson - SunPS" > Well, Frodo teams up with Sauron to create the Dynamic Duo of > Evil, and they tromp all over Middle Earth, destroying everything > in their path (with the exception of Tom Bombadil, cause he's cool). > Then they high-tail it over to Narnia, Pern, and a few other places, > before they both get off'ed by some mustached human with a flying > lizard on his shoulder... > > Sorry, hope I didn't spoil anything... > > Chris (ducking for cover) you forgot to mention the part about frodo's finger: how he takes to waggling it at sauron and saying, in a squikky voice, "rod roM!, rod roM!" chris cunningham From mtiller at ntlworld.com Tue Nov 26 10:10:32 2002 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 18:10:32 -0000 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c29577$1c7b88a0$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> >From: Julie Alipaz [mailto:jalipaz at stanford.edu] >Sent: 26 November 2002 17:55 >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: RE: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth > >Yes, but the word was unbeleivable. >My name is Inego Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die! actually, inconcieveable Yeah I know, I was getting mixed up with Vince Sorenti, which is only going to make sense to the Aussies on the list :-) From nytemuse at auros.org Tue Nov 26 10:12:49 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 10:12:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: <200211261801.gAQI1Zm08371@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, David Goldfarb wrote: > Um, I'm sorry, but if we have to use spoiler space for classic works > of literature that are a half-century old, then we have to use spoiler > space for EVERYTHING; and in my humble opinion that is just not reasonable. > (I'm envisioning putting in spoiler space before talking about how > Jesus came back from the dead....) Do you really make THAT many references to events in literature? This is the first time, in the months that I've been on the list, that I've seen a citation of plot w/o space. Besides, I don't care so much about the actual 20 lines of blank space as I do of just mentioning in ONE LINE at the beginning of the post that there are possible spoilers for some book, which doesn't seem too _unreasonable_ to me. Not everyone is obviously as advanced in literature and history as you. ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From nytemuse at auros.org Tue Nov 26 10:15:09 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 10:15:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: <200211261803.gAQI3Nu24476@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > Well, Frodo teams up with Sauron to create the Dynamic Duo of > Evil, and they tromp all over Middle Earth, destroying everything > in their path (with the exception of Tom Bombadil, cause he's cool). > Then they high-tail it over to Narnia, Pern, and a few other places, > before they both get off'ed by some mustached human with a flying > lizard on his shoulder... Yeah, and I thought they also took Galadriel as their live-in girlfriend and slave. *smirk* ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From casey at trinityhartford.org Tue Nov 26 10:21:12 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:21:12 -0500 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: <200211261801.gAQI1Zm08371@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: David Goldfarb wrote: > Um, I'm sorry, but if we have to use spoiler space for classic works > of literature that are a half-century old, then we have to use spoiler > space for EVERYTHING; and in my humble opinion that is just not > reasonable. > (I'm envisioning putting in spoiler space before talking about how > Jesus came back from the dead....) OTOH, LotR is receiving a fairly significant bit of new readership due to certain cinematic adaptations. The NT has had no such dramatic first or second order change in readership. I'd say that at this point FotR is fair game without spoiler warnings, but significant events of TT and RotK are worthy of some respect. I will say what I said to NyteMuse on the particular incident. By the time you get to that part, it shouldn't matter that it was mentioned here. Casey From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Nov 26 10:22:52 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 26 Nov 2002 12:22:52 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <20021126171859.66503.qmail@web12707.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20021126171859.66503.qmail@web12707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Andrew McGuigan writes: > What if the truth *is* that there are really god(s)? > Certainly it makes sense to write about that > possibility as any other. In fantasy, sure. Like Lois Bujold's _Curse of Chalion_. Religion plays a large role in that book, and I like it very well. > Also, it seems we had some kind of religion for what, > 5000 years? (Egyptians being 3000 B.C. I believe) So > why not in the far future? Lots of things we've been doing for thousands of years that we're starting to give up, and a good thing too. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From electrictwilight at hotmail.com Tue Nov 26 10:23:07 2002 From: electrictwilight at hotmail.com (H. T.) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 18:23:07 +0000 Subject: A question on FHYA Message-ID: Notice: Spoilers Below I am at work so please forgive any inaccuracies I may have in my statements as I do not have any of the books in front of me to ensure accuracy. I am more or less ?winging? my statements from memory. >Here is the simple answer... If you read I believe Phoenix there is > >description of a black stone in the prisons... Yep... Black Phoenix > >stone, it prevents Psionic communication so I believe that should >answer >your question. (and it makes sense that it would be in the >prisons) Agreed black and gold phoenix stone makes more sense than anything else. >I feel that had Ardon wanted to get in touch with his daughter he >could >have, phoenix stone or no phoenix stone. He was after all the >preminent >sourcerer of his era and an adept at per-empire magic. Yes, but what difference does this really make? If I recall in Vlad?s era (which is further along with sorcery than Adron?s era), in Orca Vlad writes to "Kiera" instead of communicating with her psionically because the black stone would block his communication. Furthermore, toward the end of the book he tells "her" to get Savn and the old lady out of there, I am thinking he doesn?t say "get us all out of here" because the gold stone is still around his neck and this renders it impossible. Then, in Issola, when Vlad asks Lady Teldra how she found him she tells Vlad that she had to go through one of M?s windows in the tower, with the help of Sethra (wasn?t it? Again, I don't have the books so this may not be accurate). What she doesn?t say is "I was able to get here because Sethra is an extremely powerful sorcerer and was able to track you whether you wanted to be found or not and then she (or I) teleported [me] here" >And my basis is that the imperial prison in Adrihlanka(sp?) is not the > >same building and if it was not built post Ardons disastor was at >least >heavily rebuilt. I doubt very much that they could move the >capital >without some serious remodelling of the facilities. Still, "IF" they did have it in the first prisons why wouldn?t they use it in the "new" prisons. As I see it, if you have something that worked during the existence of the first prisons why wouldn?t you use it for the second. To use a cliche, "If it isn?t broken, don?t fix it." As I see it the black and gold phoenix stones would be in the prisons for more than esthetic reasons. >Of course I could be completely wrong I just don't think we have >enough >evidence to make a conclusive argument on either side. OF COURSE! But then we couldn?t have fun speculating... we don?t really know anything, but the speculating part is loads of fun and keeps us from doing the work we should be doing. >I think it is more likely she couldn't than didn't try. Right, why wouldn?t she at least tell him even if under a different guise than what her actual reasons for being there were. Perhaps tell him not the whole truth or subdue the actuality so her daddy wouldn?t get mad at her yet still would help her our of prison. >Also, something that quite a few people seem to be forgetting is that > >Aliera knew she was going to be arrested. When Khaavren came to arrest > >her, she simply asked him what took so long. There was plenty of time (a >matter of hours) during which she knew she would be arrested and >could >have easily spoken with Adron then if she'd wished, no matter >what stones >are or aren't in the prison. Oh, excellent point. Well this just puts my paragraph above to shame doesn?t it. >Indeed, perhaps gold phoenix stone is used as well. After all, if there >isn't anything, what is to prevent a sufficiently competent sorcerer from >simply breaking out? Their Honour? > > >If you're going to rely on their honor, why even have bars, locks and > >guards? Not only this, but one also has to take the ?less than honorable? houses into account, why would they stay put if they can care less about honor? >Also there is no mention of stones set into the wall in the TPG scene > >where Katana e'M'archala and Tazenrda are painting on the wall. >However >that is not conclusive as A) Aliera may have been in a special >cell and B) >absence of description does not mean something isn't >there. On the other >hand Parfi does like to go into quite a lot of >detail:) Emmm, as I stated above, because I?m at work I don?t have the books in hand to ensure accuracy, but if I recall correctly, (and I am probably wrong in actuality), in Phoenix does M. say he picked up the black phoenix stone off the ground of the cells, rather than he removed it from the wall? If it is simply placed on the ground in the second prisons how can we be certain it wouldn?t be the same for the first, perhaps it makes more sense to them. (i.e. Maybe the more people the more phoenix stone required, and having it on the ground allows them to add as needed. ? And, before anyone says "I never saw any mention of this (more people/more stone idea) in any book", there is of course, no evidence or facts to support this idea, I more or less was writing as reason why it would "make more sense" to put it on the ground instead of in the walls.) _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From frank at exit.com Tue Nov 26 10:27:25 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 10:27:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <20021126171859.66503.qmail@web12707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200211261827.gAQIRPGZ043329@realtime.exit.com> Andrew McGuigan wrote: > What if the truth *is* that there are really god(s)? > Certainly it makes sense to write about that > possibility as any other. Well, not entirely. At the moment, the universe is looking pretty deity-free. (Discounting for the moment any purely subjective belief system.) -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From Randi128 at aol.com Tue Nov 26 10:31:38 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:31:38 EST Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: <162.17b79431.2b15180a@aol.com> dd-b wrote:> I get cranky when far-future societies have anything recognizable as religeon, personally. Makes no sense it would last that long. People, we are talking about fiction. There can be religeon or atheism or whatever the author wants to have. Atheism is a religeon of non-belief in god. So even atheists have a religeon. Also keep in mind that the main purpose of religeon is not to comfort people and explain things. It's about POWER. He who controls the church controls the state. Especially in medieval times. As much as I loath religeon, I have to admit that I find it fascinating also. Where you find society, you will find religeon of some kind. There is always some charlatan out there trying to convince the gullible that he can make it rain fire. John D. Barbato,O.D. "I miss everything I'll never be.", Billy Corgin, smashing punkins From frank at exit.com Tue Nov 26 10:37:40 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 10:37:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <3DE39B94.9030402@attbi.com> Message-ID: <200211261837.gAQIbegj043382@realtime.exit.com> Mia McDavid wrote: > It is, in fact, part of my belief system. However, I also point to the > fact that, historically, societies *do* have religions. Whether the > *government* is religious or not, people worship. Greeks, Romans, > Hindus, Jews, African Animists, Christians, Muslims, Shinto, NeoPagan, > Materialist, SuperPatriot--it is in human nature to follow the call of a > higher power, whether we call it God, or the Ancestors, or the Forest > Spirit, or the Destiny of America. Individuals may be athiests, but > humans as a group are religious creatures. This seems to me to be a terribly bleak view of humanity. That we as a species cannot but continue to cling to superstition to "explain" things that we don't understand. I'll grant you that religion seems to satisfy something innate in our species (although I suspect that the what it satisfies is our compulsion to find patterns in our environment, even when those patterns don't really exist), but why does that preclude an ability to overcome that innate predisposition? It would seem to me that it is possible, even desirable, to accept the physical nature of the universe, and to accept that there are things we as individuals (or as a species) don't know, without resorting to some supernatural belief system not based in reality. Sigh. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From agrajag at dragaera.net Tue Nov 26 10:37:25 2002 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 26 Nov 2002 13:37:25 -0500 Subject: A question on FHYA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1038335844.1161.2.camel@loiosh> On Tue, 2002-11-26 at 13:23, H. T. wrote: > Notice: Spoilers Below > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, but what difference does this really make? If I recall in Vlad?s era > (which is further along with sorcery than Adron?s era), in Orca Vlad writes > to "Kiera" instead of communicating with her psionically because the black > stone would block his communication. That's a little inaccurate. In previous Vlad novels, when he was still in the city, he would never contact Kiera directly, instead he would just leave word in the street that he wanted to talk to her, and she would appear. The reason stated at the time was that Kiera didn't allow psionic communication with anyone.. and those who've read all the books can probablly guess why she wouldn't allow psionic communication with anyone. Jag From frank at exit.com Tue Nov 26 10:39:23 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 10:39:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <200211261839.gAQIdN6s043397@realtime.exit.com> Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > But I'm curious as to why you think it would be gone... Due to a better and more complete understanding of ourselves in particular, and of the universe. Knowing _why_ we as a species find religion so compelling may give us the tools we need to discard it. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Nov 26 10:24:29 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:24:29 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: <200211261801.gAQI1Zm08371@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: <20021126182429.GA1988@infodancer.org> On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 01:21:12PM -0500, Casey Rousseau wrote: > OTOH, LotR is receiving a fairly significant bit of new readership due to > certain cinematic adaptations. The NT has had no such dramatic first or > second order change in readership. I'd say that at this point FotR is fair > game without spoiler warnings, but significant events of TT and RotK are > worthy of some respect. Um, no. The books are available and have been for *decades*. This is the problem with spoiler space... someone is always spoiled, so you can't discuss anything without spoiler space, so you may as well just mark the whole LIST as a spoiler. It's a useful courtesy in certain narrow cases; it's not appropriate as a general policy for readily-available books. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From electrictwilight at hotmail.com Tue Nov 26 10:45:10 2002 From: electrictwilight at hotmail.com (H. T.) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 18:45:10 +0000 Subject: A question on FHYA Message-ID: >The reason stated at the time was that Kiera didn't allow >psionic communication with anyone.. and those who've read all the books >can probablly guess why she wouldn't allow psionic communication with >anyone. Ahhh, of course! point well taken. I think I was thinking about how the book started and ended with a letter "from" Kiera. Humm, never really thought about "why" she wouldn't allow psionic communication, but that makes much sense and makes that part of that novel even neater. (After reading that book I remember taking about a week and a half and going back through every novel and thinking "wow that is neat! gee wiz that cool!" heh. :) ...) _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From frank at exit.com Tue Nov 26 10:47:29 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 10:47:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <162.17b79431.2b15180a@aol.com> Message-ID: <200211261847.gAQIlTAB043480@realtime.exit.com> Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > Atheism is a religeon of non-belief in > god. So even atheists have a religeon. I dare you to say that on alt.atheism.moderated! (Boy, would _you_ be sorry! :-) In my life (and in that of any of the other atheists I know), religion plays no part whatsoever. Atheism is quite emphatically _not_ a religion. (Of course, one can make it so, but then one can make pretty much _anything_ a religion.) -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From Randi128 at aol.com Tue Nov 26 11:16:40 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:16:40 EST Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: Frank wrote: I dare you to say that at alt.atheism.moderated. Boy, would you be sorry. My dear Frank, I am never sorry and live for theological, philosophical and epistemological debate. I have degrees in biology, chemistry, philosophy and religion. I am never sorry to debate. Remember in an intellectual discussion there are never winners or losers, just those who cannot support their positions. John D. Barbato,O.D. "I miss everything I'll never be.", Billy Corgin, smashing punkins From rsuitor at cjwrfs.net Tue Nov 26 11:19:35 2002 From: rsuitor at cjwrfs.net (Richard Suitor) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:19:35 -0500 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: References: <3h97uu0brbgd3162mrl6rip6dcs0d8bm4m@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Nov 2002 10:07:53 -0800 (PST), Nytemuse wrote: >Well, except for the fact that a scientist is, for the most part, >perfectly happy to be proven wrong. I've never seen a priest react that >way. :) heh. I have have found it extraordinarily difficult to prove a priest wrong (to the priest's satisfaction), so have little data ;<) I'd have to say that of the scientists I've worked with and respected, all were willing to be proved wrong, but I've seen enough and heard enough stories to make me doubt "for the most part". I'm not sure that I can say that that is universally bad. Einstein directed his post-GR efforts based on an informed faith that he was taking a reasonable approach. That is an example of a very talented individual making a very well informed decision of faith and failing. We tend to celebrate those people who make similar choices and turn out to have been right. I suspect there are many achievements that would not be made without such commitments and that there are many more such commitments that fail than succeed. What is necessary to succeed is a firm conviction that the decision taken will ultimately turn out to be right, despite all the intermediate setbacks. What is that but a strong unwillingness to be demonstrated wrong? The "scientist" is one who can recognize the logical consequences of an experiment and, as you say, alter her beliefs based on this. But what experiments reveal is quite different than what is needed to decide what to do next, where to devote one's efforts, what area to study, what will prove fruitful - these are matters of informed faith in the field of hard science - such decisions form a much larger percentage of all decisions in other aspects of life. Richard From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Nov 26 11:20:45 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:20:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: <200211261920.gAQJKeu10711@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > But I'm curious as to why you think it would be gone... > > Due to a better and more complete understanding of ourselves in particular, > and of the universe. Knowing _why_ we as a species find religion so > compelling may give us the tools we need to discard it. Oh, I completely agree that it would be a Good Thing for us, as a species, to accept that there are things we may not be able to prove, without believing in other things that we cannot prove. I was just curious as to what other people might have thought. Chris From ladybirdsleeps at hotmail.com Tue Nov 26 11:20:47 2002 From: ladybirdsleeps at hotmail.com (The Hostile Takeover Party) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:20:47 +0000 Subject: A question on FHYA Message-ID: >That's what I was thinking of at first. However, Aliera knew what spell >Adron had in store. And I also feel its safe to assume that 1) Aliera >asked Mario to free her from prison, and 2) Aliera asked Mario to >actully kill the Emperor. Given this, it seems to be a mis-step on >Aliera's part[1][2] that she did not think what would happen if her >father was using his spell when the Emperor was killed. Perhaps talking >to her father before her arrest could have prevented the Disaster. Three reasons why this couldn't be the case: 1) Aliera is impetuous, but not stupid, and throughout the book it's implied that she understands her father's plan. If she thought Mario might try to kill the Emperor, wouldn't she have contacted him and told him? Even if the prisons *are* guarded against psionics, she had time beforehand. 2) Mario learns of Aliera's arrest from Khaavren *after* he escapes and kills Dunaan. He's surprised -- I don't think he would have accepted Aliera's help if he knew it would lead to her arrest (although, maybe he would, if he was confident he could rescue her). 3) On pg. 459, he's "set upon by an idea." Instead of going home, as he planned, he visits the woman who gives him the sorcery needed to kill the emperor. This implies that killing the Emperor was a sudden decision. -Snapdragon (Who just finished FHYA while taking a bath.) _________________________________________________________________ Hitta billigaste resan p? MSN Resor http://www.msn.se/resor/default.asp From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Nov 26 11:25:00 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:25:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: <200211261924.gAQJOtu11805@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > > Atheism is a religeon of non-belief in > > god. So even atheists have a religeon. Ah! And what about us agnostic nihilists, huh? You saying I have faith in not knowing what the truth is? Granted, you could make an argument that my nihilistic leanings are quasi-religious, I suppose... :) Chris From feaelin at kemenel.org Tue Nov 26 11:27:42 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:27:42 -0600 Subject: Donaldson (was RE: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth) Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: David Dyer-Bennet [mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net] > I'm sure I was picking new authors on my own at 9. Maybe > earlier. Until I was in 8th grade, I wasn't around anybody > else who was into fantasy and SF, so I didn't get many suggestions. Same here, at least, that were I my age group. Of course, I'm not sure how many of my *cough* peers could actually read... Fortunately, my mother had a great many books covering a broad range of Fantasy and SF plus some Mystery and other things. Throw in the few westerns I liked from Grandma's collection, and some of the stuff my Great Grandmother liked (I'm not sure where those fall) I had a pretty broad selection of books to choose from. None of them really made _recommendations_, just didn't stop me from reading any of it. From den at monger.net Tue Nov 26 11:08:04 2002 From: den at monger.net (Dennis Higbee) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:08:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <200211261847.gAQIlTAB043480@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Frank Mayhar wrote: > Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > > Atheism is a religeon of non-belief in > > god. So even atheists have a religeon. > > I dare you to say that on alt.atheism.moderated! (Boy, would _you_ be > sorry! :-) > > In my life (and in that of any of the other atheists I know), religion > plays no part whatsoever. Atheism is quite emphatically _not_ a religion. > (Of course, one can make it so, but then one can make pretty much _anything_ > a religion.) Atheism is not a religion, but there are atheists who make it into one. -Dennis From mneme at io.com Tue Nov 26 11:36:35 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:36:35 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <200211261837.gAQIbegj043382@realtime.exit.com> References: <3DE39B94.9030402@attbi.com> <200211261837.gAQIbegj043382@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <15843.52547.509682.600392@hagbard.io.com> Frank Mayhar writes: >This seems to me to be a terribly bleak view of humanity. That we as a >species cannot but continue to cling to superstition to "explain" things >that we don't understand. There's a major falacy here -- supersition is one of the trappings of religon, but you don't need religon to have superstition (last time I did X, bad things happened, so I'll avoid doing X even though it was unrelated to the bad things, frex), and you certainly don't need superstitions to have a religon. >when those patterns don't really exist), but why does that preclude an >ability to overcome that innate predisposition? Why? It's possible that we'll evolve less theistic, and more holistic religons over time...but rituals and even axiomatic beliefs are psychologically -useful-. For that matter, there's no inherent bias toward making speculations about the "unprovable" category any more than there is toward assuming that "nothing" is in that category. It's astronomicaly unlikely that any given guess is correct...but the simple "something" and "nothing" speculations are about equally likely past that event horizon. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Nov 26 11:16:22 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:16:22 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <200211261847.gAQIlTAB043480@realtime.exit.com> References: <162.17b79431.2b15180a@aol.com> <200211261847.gAQIlTAB043480@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <20021126191622.GB1988@infodancer.org> On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 10:47:29AM -0800, Frank Mayhar wrote: > Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > > Atheism is a religeon of non-belief in > > god. So even atheists have a religeon. > I dare you to say that on alt.atheism.moderated! (Boy, would _you_ be > sorry! :-) > > In my life (and in that of any of the other atheists I know), religion > plays no part whatsoever. Atheism is quite emphatically _not_ a religion. > (Of course, one can make it so, but then one can make pretty much _anything_ > a religion.) Atheism can be defined as faith in the non-existance of God, above and beyond the evidence available. That's very similar to religion and many atheists treat it as such, absent the trappings of ceremony and ritual. You could make an argument that baiting the religious constitutes ritualized worship, though. Agnosticism is a better non-religion claim. While there is no clear and unequivocal evidence for God, there is no way to prove not-God, thus leaving strong atheism in the position of the religions it despises. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt From agrajag at dragaera.net Tue Nov 26 11:34:37 2002 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 26 Nov 2002 14:34:37 -0500 Subject: A question on FHYA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1038339277.1156.9.camel@loiosh> On Tue, 2002-11-26 at 14:20, The Hostile Takeover Party wrote: > >That's what I was thinking of at first. However, Aliera knew what spell > >Adron had in store. And I also feel its safe to assume that 1) Aliera > >asked Mario to free her from prison, and 2) Aliera asked Mario to > >actully kill the Emperor. Given this, it seems to be a mis-step on > >Aliera's part[1][2] that she did not think what would happen if her > >father was using his spell when the Emperor was killed. Perhaps talking > >to her father before her arrest could have prevented the Disaster. > > Three reasons why this couldn't be the case: > > 1) Aliera is impetuous, but not stupid, and throughout the book it's implied > that she understands her father's plan. If she thought Mario might try to > kill the Emperor, wouldn't she have contacted him and told him? Even if the > prisons *are* guarded against psionics, she had time beforehand. Hmm.. I doesn't make since that she would intentionally foul things up like this, but I'm still think she might be the reason why Mario made his second attempt. > > 2) Mario learns of Aliera's arrest from Khaavren *after* he escapes and > kills Dunaan. He's surprised -- I don't think he would have accepted > Aliera's help if he knew it would lead to her arrest (although, maybe he > would, if he was confident he could rescue her). You're right on this. I forgot that Mario found out about Aliera's arrest from Khaavren. > > 3) On pg. 459, he's "set upon by an idea." Instead of going home, as he > planned, he visits the woman who gives him the sorcery needed to kill the > emperor. This implies that killing the Emperor was a sudden decision. When Aliera is helping Mario escape, she mentions that she has a way Mario can repay her for her help. I think this comes down to what you think she means. I could easily mean that she either wanted sex from him, or wanted him to really kill the Emperor. I lean towards the latter as she mentioned how splendid an idea she thought killing the Emperor would be, and IIRC seems almost disappointed when Mario says he isn't intending to strike again. Now, assuming Aliera did ask Mario to make a second attempt, it is quite possible that he was heading home to devise a plan to attack the Emperor, but instead had the idea that lead to the plan while on his way home. To play the devil's advocate though, it's also likely that he wasn't intending to kill the Emperor again, but as soon as he figured out how he could, he decided to do it as a gift for his love, and possibly as a way to bring him notorioty within the Jhereg. Jag From Randi128 at aol.com Tue Nov 26 11:40:07 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:40:07 EST Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: on 11/26/2002 Chris Olson wrote: You are saying that I have faith in not knowing what the truth is? Granted you could argue my nihilistic leanings are quasi-religeous, I suppose...:) Bingo. Religeon is a system of beliefs. In many instances culture and religeon are indistinguishable(ie:the jewish faith not eating pork. Religeous? Cultural? Both.). Keep in mind that philosophy and religeon are two sides of the same coin. Nihilism, belief, faith, philosophy-----religeon in a different form. I love it when you make my point for me. :) John D. Barbato,O.D. "I miss everything I'll never be.", Billy Corgin, smashing punkins From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Nov 26 11:41:31 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:41:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: A question on FHYA Message-ID: <200211261941.gAQJfQu17853@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > To play the devil's advocate though, it's also likely that he wasn't > intending to kill the Emperor again, but as soon as he figured out how > he could, he decided to do it as a gift for his love, and possibly as a > way to bring him notorioty within the Jhereg. Another thought: Mario may have just gotten pissed that he had been set up, with the intention that he be caught and killed for an attempt on the Emperor that wouldn't have worked. In this instance, he may have just said "Ya know, I'll show those Jhereg bastads up and do the job they never intended me to finish! Yeah! I'm gonna go kill the Emperor and get it right! Serves 'em right for doing that to me!" I dunno. I could see myself doing this. But I'm stubborn and full of spite, so... Chris "I feel if a person can't communicate, the very least they can do is shut up." ~ Tom Lehrer ~ From Randi128 at aol.com Tue Nov 26 11:45:36 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:45:36 EST Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: <114.1b2e0f75.2b152960@aol.com> Dennis wrote: Atheism is not a religion, but there are people who may make it into one. Atheists believe there is no God. Religion is a belief. By answering the question 'Do you believe in God' you are professing your religeous beliefs. The only way to be non-religeous is to not even acknowledge the question. Semantics my dear boy. John D. Barbato,O.D. "I miss everything I'll never be.", Billy Corgin, smashing punkins From tsarren at alyra.org Tue Nov 26 11:46:26 2002 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Kat) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:46:26 -0600 Subject: A different Track In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20021126194626.GA10348@galadriel.alyra.org> I am fascinated with the myriad ways that people's brains process different types of data at the same time. For any who wish to share, a query: 1. Are any of you musicians? I had a really weird moment at a Renaissance faire last spring - I was listening to a pipe & drum band play a lively tune along with a non-musician partner; after a handful of measures he turned to me and said, "is the snare in any way at all related to what the bagpipes are playing?" I was astounded; the snares were playing a rich counter-rythm and apparrently he couldn't hear the relationship *at all*; the quantity of the difference in cognition was suprising. I am curious to know if being / not being a musician affects the types of music that work or don't work with your multi-tasking in any predictable way. > From: Nytemuse [mailto:nytemuse at auros.org] > > I don't necessarily agree. My b/f had the hardest time understanding why > > I couldn't get any work done on the computer or doing homework or > > something without the TV on or music or chatting with someone. Are you actually processing the TV/music at the same time you're doing work? or is it white noise in this case? I also have a situation in which I need extra input of a different type - lecture. Processing a spoken monologue for any length of time over about 5 minutes will drive me up the wall and send me deep into my own thoughts in search of more stimulation and input, unless a) the person has a great enough density of information in their speech such that I'm devoting all of my effort to it, or b) I either draw stuff or play a minesweeper-type game. I just wish I'd figured this out in high school instead of my last year of college... doodling was always frowned upon because it meant you weren't "paying attention", so for awhile I kept telling myself I wasn't supposed to be doing it. If anyone else has extra-input needs, I'd be interested in hearing them. > > When I'm > > reading, I don't watch TV, though. I DO listen to music, > > preferably something that my brain perceives as "white noise" > > (something familiar and not too distracting), if not white > > noise itself. Do you listen to music with clear and obvious lyrics, or no? If you don't, that would seem to imply that verbalized language interferes somewhat with the part of your brain that's processing the book. That is certainly the case with me; I can follow a conversation or process lyrics and read at the same time, but my reading speed drops by about 75% when I do. > > If I don't, any background noise will distract > > me. I'm guessing that the TV ends up in the same category as "background noise"? > > I guess because I've trained my brain to multi-task? In the case of your computer work, that would seem to be the case if you are actually processing the TV/music. Query, does chatting include in-person, online, phone, or some combination thereof? In the case of you reading... it would seem as if your multi-tasking isn't working the way you want it to if the background noises can actually distract you from your reading. > From: Matthew Hunter [mailto:matthew at infodancer.org] > > Sometimes it helps, sometimes it hurts. It depends on how the > > music complements the text, and how intrusive the music is. I > > listen to very text-friendly music -- carefully chosen to occupy > > a different part of my mental space than reading a book or > > programming or writing does. Do you (does anyone else who's reading this) ever select music specifically for a particular book? As a possible example, coupling the score from The Crow with Agyar, or Willow with one of the more rollicking Vlad books. Is there anyone out there who can actually listen to song lyrics (even better, actually sing along with them) and still read at their full speed? At 09:57 PM 11/25/2002 -0800, David Silberstein wrote: >To the left, I do sometimes listen to music while reading, and I find >that sometimes what I'm reading is so interesting that I start >ignoring the music, and sometimes the music is so compelling that I no >longer give the text my full attention. I think that even if we're passively ignoring it, music still has the possibility of affecting us subconsciously... one time I put on a CD of 20th Century classical works, and was talking with some friends when I became consciously aware that I was feeling slightly depressed for no apparent reason... and then realized that we were in the middle of Barber's Adagio for Strings. About that time one of my friends looked up and said, "we need to change the music, this is making me sad." On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 10:37:24AM -0500, Rick Castello wrote: > Programming with music - Yes. > > Reading with music - No. > > A well-written work creates its own sort of background score > in my head... it doesn't need any other music to compete with, > if I'd even notice what was going on in the background. I do this sometimes as well. Is it a matter of the music actually jarring with what your mind is providing, or is it something else? > I'm known among my friends for not even hearing them speak > (unless they're in my range of vision or speaking loudly) when > I'm engrossed in a good book. Likewise, if something/someone > creates enough of a distraction to actually make me notice > it/them, I'm more likely to be mildly annoyed than pleased at > the disturbance.* I ended up with a set of mental filters since I am averse to being unaware of my environment in some cases. I can read at full speed right in the middle of a group conversation, and I won't consciously process any of it unless the filters catch something - someone says my name, for example; or says something upon which I have a strong opinion. The sensation of the filters catching something is a bit odd; it's almost like waking up to the sound of voices - you comprehend that the voices are there, and then in the next few seconds the sentences actually start making sense / being processed. Anon, Kat From rick at 404.978.org Tue Nov 26 11:55:34 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:55:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: A different Track In-Reply-To: <20021126194626.GA10348@galadriel.alyra.org> References: <20021126194626.GA10348@galadriel.alyra.org> Message-ID: <2684.192.168.1.1.1038340534.squirrel@404.978.org> Kat said: > On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 10:37:24AM -0500, Rick Castello wrote: > >> Programming with music - Yes. >> Reading with music - No. >> >> A well-written work creates its own sort of background score in >> my head... it doesn't need any other music to compete with, if >> I'd even notice what was going on in the background. > > I do this sometimes as well. > > Is it a matter of the music actually jarring with what your mind is > providing, or is it something else? It's not even jarring, usually... it's probably best described the same way I'd describe someone trying to talk to me about something unimportant while I'm obviously curled up and engrossed in my reading... like a buzzing pesky insect. Something naggingly annoying that I'd just like to snap my fingers and make it stop. ;) >> I'm known among my friends for not even hearing them speak >> (unless they're in my range of vision or speaking loudly) when >> I'm engrossed in a good book. Likewise, if something/someone >> creates enough of a distraction to actually make me notice >> it/them, I'm more likely to be mildly annoyed than pleased at the >> disturbance.* > > I ended up with a set of mental filters since I am averse to being > unaware of my environment in some cases. I can read at full speed right > in the middle of a group conversation, and I won't consciously process > any of it unless the filters catch something - someone says my name, for > example; or says something upon which I have a strong opinion. The > sensation of the filters catching something is a bit odd; it's almost > like waking up to the sound of voices - you comprehend that the voices > are there, and then in the next few seconds the sentences actually start > making sense / being processed. Agreed. I do the same thing... sometimes when someone is speaking at me... kinda like seeing a word whizz by but red-tinted, so you instinctively say, "What?? What were you saying about dinner, drinks, and sex on the beach? Rewind, please?!" I can't even begin to count the number of times since getting my TiVo that I wished upon wish to have a rewind button for EVERYTHING in life... :) Radio, conversations, etc. When the Cyberpunk age arrives, sign me up for an earjack! -Rick From seanp at ea.com Tue Nov 26 11:54:56 2002 From: seanp at ea.com (Penney, Sean) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:54:56 -0800 Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F5952E@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> >Agnosticism is a better non-religion claim. While there is no >clear and unequivocal evidence for God, there is no way to prove >not-God, thus leaving strong atheism in the position of the >religions it despises. Bah - semantics, pedantics... Atheists say since you can't prove there is a God, I believe there is no God. "Just the facts, man" Agnostics say since you can't prove there is not a God, I'll keep my options open. "I believe there ain't no Heaven and I pray there ain't no Hell." From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Nov 26 11:58:29 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:58:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: <200211261958.gAQJwOu20366@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Bingo. Religeon is a system of beliefs. In many instances culture and > religeon are indistinguishable(ie:the jewish faith not eating pork. > Religeous? Cultural? Both.). Keep in mind that philosophy and religeon are > two sides of the same coin. Nihilism, belief, faith, philosophy-----religeon > in a different form. > I love it when you make my point for me. :) I wasn't making it *for* you, per se. I was simply making the same argument that I hear about the subject >from others. However, what difference do you give for, say, belief in a god/religion, and belief that the sky is blue? Personaly, I usualy define religion in terms of faith, not belief. A system of beliefs? Possible, yes. But that only describes the nihilism part, not the agnostisism. I don't "believe" that I don't know; I just don't know, and am not so arrogant (geesh, did *I* say that?!?) to think that I know, hands down, what's going on. I like nihilism because, ultimately, I think the human race doesn't matter diddly-squat to the universe at large, and only our own mortality dictates we believe otherwise. However, I'm still in the Militant Agnostic camp, and until I can't find anyone with whom I can debate such topics in a calm, rationalized manner, I'll stick with that, and only be partialy nihilistic... (and I won't get into my ex's view of "Every thought, feeling, idea, concept, sense, etc., is all a product of chemical reactions in our brain, and it's perfectly possible that no one is in the universe except me"... It's a little too much...:) Chris From casey at trinityhartford.org Tue Nov 26 12:01:23 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:01:23 -0500 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <200211261924.gAQJOtu11805@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: Chris Olson wrote: > > Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > > > Atheism is a religeon of non-belief in > > > god. So even atheists have a religeon. > > Ah! And what about us agnostic nihilists, huh? > > You saying I have faith in not knowing what the > truth is? Granted, you could make an argument > that my nihilistic leanings are quasi-religious, > I suppose... :) > > Chris Ah, but according to Descartes you have only two choices, belief and unbelief. Delaying the choice (being agnostic) too long ends up being indistinguishable from atheism. :) OK, I'm not sure I can support that one either, but... Some of the most devout people I know are atheists. Dennis Higbee wrote: > Atheism is not a religion, but there are atheists who make it into one. I think we are saying the same thing but making different divisions. I would say there are people who have no religion but they are not atheists. It may boil down to the difference between: I believe in no god. and I believe there is no god The first is not a statement of religion. The second is indistinguishable >from a religion. Matthew Hunter wrote: > Atheism can be defined as faith in the non-existance of God, > above and beyond the evidence available. That's very similar to > religion and many atheists treat it as such, absent the trappings > of ceremony and ritual. You could make an argument that baiting > the religious constitutes ritualized worship, though. The devout atheists I describe above in fact do create ceremonies and ritual that parallel ones that might be practiced in other faiths. These rituals meet their own needs and those of their family and friends who do not universally share their faith. Casey In the interests of full disclosure, the grains of salt you need to take with any of the above statements are: a) I am religious. I am a devout Christian. I am an Episcopalian. b) Matthew, Joshua and I (and probably others if I were to check) have all been discussing this issue on another list. From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Tue Nov 26 12:00:05 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:00:05 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: <3DE39325.1060401@attbi.com> Message-ID: <3DE3D2C5.7060308@attbi.com> DDB writes: >I get cranky when far-future societies have anything recognizable as >religion, personally. Makes no sense it would last that long. -- Why not? It's lasted since at least the creation of writing--before that we're just guessing, but there's evidence of prehistoric religion if you want it to point that way. You want to argue that *any one* religion would fade out over time? I have less problem with that one. OTOH, Judaism has lasted 4000 years or so, and is still going strong. Who's to say it won't be around and recognizable for the next 4000 years? The Chosen People have held tenaciously to their religious identity through generations of diapora and exile; why would that change? Mia From den at monger.net Tue Nov 26 11:38:55 2002 From: den at monger.net (Dennis Higbee) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:38:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <114.1b2e0f75.2b152960@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Nov 2002 Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > Dennis wrote: Atheism is not a religion, but there are people who may make it > into one. > > Atheists believe there is no God. Religion is a belief. By answering the > question 'Do you believe in God' you are professing your religeous beliefs. > The only way to be non-religeous is to not even acknowledge the question. Your definition seems overly inclusive to me. For instance, I believe I'll be stuck in rush hour traffic this evening. Does that mean I've just started the Holy Reverend Church of Sitting on My Ass and Screaming "Fucking Traffic" Every Two Minutes While Honking My Horn? If someone allows their atheism to dominate their life in the same way Christianity dominites the lives of devout Christians, then as far as I'm concerned, they are religious. If someone just makes peace with the fact that they believe that there is no God and then gets on with their lives, never bothering with it again, that person has no religion. That's what I meant. -Dennis From rone at ennui.org Tue Nov 26 12:00:57 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:00:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: from "Randi128@aol.com" at "Nov 26, 2002 02:40:07 pm" Message-ID: <20021126200057.444CF26E32@boredom.ennui.org> Randi128 at aol.com writes: Religion is a system of beliefs. Religion is much more than that. It often involves spiritualism, mysticism, and mythology. Religions often include a system of belief, but not all systems of belief are religions. rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From rone at ennui.org Tue Nov 26 12:01:29 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:01:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <200211261958.gAQJwOu20366@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> from Chris Olson - SunPS at "Nov 26, 2002 11:58:29 am" Message-ID: <20021126200129.053DD26E34@boredom.ennui.org> Chris Olson - SunPS writes: (and I won't get into my ex's view of "Every thought, feeling, idea, concept, sense, etc., is all a product of chemical reactions in our brain, and it's perfectly possible that no one is in the universe except me"... It's a little too much...:) Solipsism is for chumps. rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From den at monger.net Tue Nov 26 11:43:09 2002 From: den at monger.net (Dennis Higbee) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:43:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Casey Rousseau wrote: > Dennis Higbee wrote: > > Atheism is not a religion, but there are atheists who make it into one. > > I think we are saying the same thing but making different divisions. I > would say there are people who have no religion but they are not atheists. > > It may boil down to the difference between: > > I believe in no god. > and > I believe there is no god > > The first is not a statement of religion. The second is indistinguishable > from a religion. You're right. We do agree. You just expressed it much more simply and elegantly than I did. -Dennis From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Nov 26 12:06:11 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:06:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: <200211262006.gAQK67u21617@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Chris Olson - SunPS writes: > (and I won't get into my ex's view of "Every thought, feeling, > idea, concept, sense, etc., is all a product of chemical reactions > in our brain, and it's perfectly possible that no one is in the > universe except me"... It's a little too much...:) > > Solipsism is for chumps. Sure. Now try arguing that to an extremely intelligent and reasonable obsessive-compulsive.... Heh. Chris From ladybirdsleeps at hotmail.com Tue Nov 26 11:55:34 2002 From: ladybirdsleeps at hotmail.com (The Hostile Takeover Party) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:55:34 +0000 Subject: A question on FHYA Message-ID: > > 1) Aliera is impetuous, but not stupid, and throughout the book it's >implied > > that she understands her father's plan. If she thought Mario might try >to > > kill the Emperor, wouldn't she have contacted him and told him? Even if >the > > prisons *are* guarded against psionics, she had time beforehand. > >Hmm.. I doesn't make since that she would intentionally foul things up >like this, but I'm still think she might be the reason why Mario made >his second attempt. Then I have to ask you *why* you think it. There's no evidence that Aliera /asked/ Mario to kill the Emperor. She's still part of the reason, however, since he was angry at the Emperor for arresting her. Since Paarfi writes like this was his primary motivation, either Paarfi is wrong, or Mario didn't decide to kill the Emperor until after his conversation with Khaavren. Why, if Aliera asked Mario to kill Tortaalik, did she not contact Adron? >When Aliera is helping Mario escape, she mentions that she has a way >Mario can repay her for her help. I think this comes down to what you >think she means. I could easily mean that she either wanted sex from >him, or wanted him to really kill the Emperor. I lean towards the >latter as she mentioned how splendid an idea she thought killing the >Emperor would be, and IIRC seems almost disappointed when Mario says he >isn't intending to strike again. So, in other words, you think that Aliera asked him to kill the Emperor, and Mario just undertook the matter with renewed determination after he learned of her arrest? This is possible, I suppose, but it makes me wonder why, if his lady-love had asked him a favor, he would go about hunting down Dunaan before doing what she wished. He seemed to think Aliera was the sun in the sky. Maybe it really *was* sex. I hope so -- Mario deserves it, for being so cute. >Now, assuming Aliera did ask Mario to make a second attempt, it is quite >possible that he was heading home to devise a plan to attack the >Emperor, but instead had the idea that lead to the plan while on his way >home. True, it's possible, but I still see no evidence to believe it. >To play the devil's advocate though, it's also likely that he wasn't >intending to kill the Emperor again, but as soon as he figured out how >he could, he decided to do it as a gift for his love, and possibly as a >way to bring him notorioty within the Jhereg. I don't think that Mario's reasons were so dispassionate -- remember that when he faces Tortaalik, he has an expression of ferocity. Mario is a Jhereg, and killing is business, except in this case. Why? Because Tortaalik was going to execute Aliera, who he loves. -Snapdragon (Spending too much time on the computer while she should be marinating mushrooms.) _________________________________________________________________ Senaste nytt fr?n motormarknaden http://motor.msn.se/ From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Nov 26 12:11:05 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:11:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: marinating mushrooms WAS: Re: A question on FHYA Message-ID: <200211262011.gAQKB0u22367@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > -Snapdragon > (Spending too much time on the computer while she should be marinating > mushrooms.) Mmm.... Now I'm getting hungry... I still think we should start a recipe swap. I wonder if Brust would mind? Chris (who's wanting to make Greek Salad and Sheery Cake, now...:) From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Tue Nov 26 12:12:54 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:12:54 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <15843.46891.246035.618358@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> DDB said: >It's going strong *here*, and in a lot of third-world places, but it's >remarkably dead throughout the rest of the developed world. We're >kind of an outlier. Yeah, but the rest of the developed world (Europe, yes?) only represents a few percent of humankind. You apparently believe that they indicate the direction that the rest of us are going in; given enough time and resources. Maybe. You've made me curious, though. What is *their* answer to "why, why, why?" Mia From RuhlenR at missouri.edu Tue Nov 26 12:15:38 2002 From: RuhlenR at missouri.edu (Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student)) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:15:38 -0600 Subject: A different Track Message-ID: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E0124553E@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> > -----Original Message----- > From: Kat [mailto:tsarren at alyra.org] > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 1:46 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: A different Track > I also have a situation in which I need extra input of a > different type - lecture. Processing a spoken monologue for > any length of time over about 5 minutes will drive me up the > wall and send me deep into my own thoughts in search of more > stimulation and input, unless a) the person has a great > enough density of information in their speech such that I'm > devoting all of my effort to it, or b) I either draw stuff or > play a minesweeper-type game. I just wish I'd figured this > out in high school instead of my last year of college... > doodling was always frowned upon because it meant you weren't > "paying attention", so for awhile I kept telling myself I > wasn't supposed to be doing it. > > If anyone else has extra-input needs, I'd be interested in > hearing them. If you are a TA for a class, the prof's lecture has a whole new meaning. You have NO problem staying awake and staying focused, because you are listening for all the students, the ones who attended, the ones who skipped, and the ones who are asleep; as well as for yourself. Rachel From rick at 404.978.org Tue Nov 26 12:14:52 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:14:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <15843.52547.509682.600392@hagbard.io.com> References: <3DE39B94.9030402@attbi.com> <200211261837.gAQIbegj043382@realtime.exit.com> <15843.52547.509682.600392@hagbard.io.com> Message-ID: <2830.192.168.1.1.1038341692.squirrel@404.978.org> Joshua Kronengold said: > Why? It's possible that we'll evolve less theistic, and more > holistic religons over time...but rituals and even axiomatic beliefs are > psychologically -useful-. Just ask Vlad or Noish-Pa. -Rick From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Tue Nov 26 12:15:32 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:15:32 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: <20021126171859.66503.qmail@web12707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3DE3D664.8010704@attbi.com> DDB said: >Lots of things we've been doing for thousands of years that we're >starting to give up, and a good thing too. Ummm, yeah. Like war, right? ;-> From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Tue Nov 26 12:20:09 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:20:09 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: <200211261847.gAQIlTAB043480@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <3DE3D779.7060904@attbi.com> Frank, Since there is no *belief* involved in atheism, that means you've *proven* that there is no god? Neat trick if you can do it. Mia From electrictwilight at hotmail.com Tue Nov 26 12:22:18 2002 From: electrictwilight at hotmail.com (H. T.) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:22:18 +0000 Subject: A different Track Message-ID: >I am curious to know if being / >not being a musician affects the types of music that work or don't >work >with your multi-tasking in any predictable way. I have a masters degree in music and another subject. My emphasis in music was on Baroque contra-puncture, particularly in chamber music. As far as the requirement of what music works for ME when I am trying to work, read (and I actually have no problem reading to music), whatever, is that must be harmonic, and "pleasing to the ear," with a steady beat and simple melody. Irregular beats are generally unagreeable to me, and anything with too strong of a bass-drum line (bass lines are okay) I do not like at all. Needless to say, though I enjoy "most" styles of music, classical, folk, jazz, blues, blue-grass, etc., grateful dead (what does one call their type of music? I've been listening to them nearly all my life and I am still baffled), is great for multi-tasking, and I avoid rap, hip-hop, hard-rock, punk, dance-hall, etc. at all costs. (Though at least one of these I may listen to when not trying to multi-task). The strange thing though, is that my brother is an "electric musician", far more talented than I can ever hope to be, and he is the exact opposite. In order to work/multitask/study/read, etc., he needs louder sounds with more irregular beats. Particularly, he studies to dance-hall reggae, rap, and punk. Like me, he listens to everything too, though his choices are different when multi-tasking. So, in sum, EVERYONE is Different. The only thing I have noticed is in work musicians tend to be the exact opposite in what you would think as they are far sloppier in their multi-tasking as say someone who's focus is psychology or math. Though, that may just be the majority of the musicians I've ever known. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Nov 26 12:24:29 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:24:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: <200211262024.gAQKOOu24799@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > >Lots of things we've been doing for thousands of years that we're > >starting to give up, and a good thing too. > > Ummm, yeah. Like war, right? ;-> Well, in some ways we've made progress, and in others, we've remained the same over the years. However, evolution is the process of evolving, and for all my pessimistic attitudes, I still have hope. But you don't need to stop at war. If anything it would be the last to go, after some of the -isms out there (I'm trying to not mention them, lest we delve further into annoying our fellow list-members...:) Chris From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Tue Nov 26 12:25:52 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:25:52 -0600 Subject: A different Track References: <20021126194626.GA10348@galadriel.alyra.org> Message-ID: <3DE3D8D0.5090007@attbi.com> Like (I suspect) every other member of this list, I read fluently. I can't, in fact *not read*. I can't look at a word without knowing what it says. I can look at a musical staff and have *no idea* what I'm supposed to be hearing. I can, with a piano and *a lot* of effort, painfully sound out the notes, but that's not reading. For all practical purposes, I learn music the way a blind woman does, and I'm really sad about that. I keep working, but all that good early-childhood learning stuff stopped happening for me *long* time ago. Mia From rick at 404.978.org Tue Nov 26 12:34:20 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:34:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Squick: Usage vs. Claimed origin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2974.192.168.1.1.1038342860.squirrel@404.978.org> David Dyer-Bennet said: > Your definition includes "turn off", which is sexual. And your real > example involves nudity, which to essentially everybody in the US is > sexual. I think the sexual connection is pretty basic. I agree that > the word may be starting to grow beyond that maybe. It was only recently that I heard of squick in anything other than a general use, along the lines of a feeling of distates or discomfort. Occasional addition of "out" to usage, as in "she got all squicked out over it." My experience with the term: Occasional use over 8-10 years in and around Central California by teens to twentysomethings. More frequently regarding physical sensation, but occasionally in reference to an idea or thought. "Eww, bugs! Creepy crawly things squick me (out)." "The thought of being stuck married to and having kids with him squicks me. Run awaaaaay!" -Rick From rick at 404.978.org Tue Nov 26 12:38:22 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:38:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Inconceivable! In-Reply-To: <000501c29544$5a938fd0$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> References: <20021125234210.GE427@infodancer.org> <000501c29544$5a938fd0$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> Message-ID: <3033.192.168.1.1.1038343102.squirrel@404.978.org> Mark Tiller said: >> On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, Matthew Hunter wrote: >> >> #You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it > means. > > Yes, but the word was unbeleivable. > My name is Inego Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die! No, the word was inconceivable. And it's Inigo. ;) -Rick From mneme at io.com Tue Nov 26 12:46:15 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:46:15 -0600 Subject: Squick: Usage vs. Claimed origin In-Reply-To: <2974.192.168.1.1.1038342860.squirrel@404.978.org> References: <2974.192.168.1.1.1038342860.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: <15843.56727.253240.269307@hagbard.io.com> Rick Castello writes: > My experience with the term: Occasional use over 8-10 years > in and around Central California by teens to twentysomethings. > More frequently regarding physical sensation, but occasionally > in reference to an idea or thought. It first showed up in my sphere about 11-12 years ago in certain parts of Usenet. While it did have a sexual usage (or at least was used in specific alt.sex groups), the usage did make it clearly a portmanteau of "squeamish" and "ick", which isn't actually sexual per-se. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From nytemuse at auros.org Tue Nov 26 12:56:39 2002 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:56:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: A different Track In-Reply-To: <20021126194626.GA10348@galadriel.alyra.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Kat wrote: > 1. Are any of you musicians? I had a really weird moment at a Renaissance > faire last spring - I was listening to a pipe & drum band play a lively tune > along with a non-musician partner; after a handful of measures he turned to > me and said, "is the snare in any way at all related to what the bagpipes > are playing?" I was astounded; the snares were playing a rich counter-rythm > and apparrently he couldn't hear the relationship *at all*; the quantity of > the difference in cognition was suprising. I am curious to know if being / > not being a musician affects the types of music that work or don't work with > your multi-tasking in any predictable way. Yes, I am a musician, and I agree, somewhat. I think almost anyone can enjoy a good piece of music, but there are some songs that I like that non-musicians despise because they don't necessarily sound outstanding, but they do something musically that I like or find intriguing. And likewise, I can't explain to some non-musical people what kinds of qualities I look for in some white noise music. > Are you actually processing the TV/music at the same time you're doing work? > or is it white noise in this case? Depends on the TV show, music, and work being done. When I'm just doing some search & replace work or fixing bad code where I already know what the problem is, then I generally process both. Meaning, I can remember the story and dialogue or tune and also remember what I changed and what I did. If I'm writing original content or creating new pages with new codes/scripts, it's more white noise. > Do you listen to music with clear and obvious lyrics, or no? If you don't, > that would seem to imply that verbalized language interferes somewhat with > the part of your brain that's processing the book. That is certainly the > case with me; I can follow a conversation or process lyrics and read at the > same time, but my reading speed drops by about 75% when I do. Sometimes. If it's a CD I'm REALLY familiar with or if the words are in another language, I can read to it. But I generally prefer ones w/o clear lyrics or w/o lyrics at all. :) So I guess I do have a little trouble with language interfering, but under conditions. > > > If I don't, any background noise will distract > > > me. > I'm guessing that the TV ends up in the same category as "background noise"? Unfamiliar shows, yes. I'm in the habit of watching sitcoms and movies I've already seen. Otherwise I'm going to want to hear every conversation outside. > > > I guess because I've trained my brain to multi-task? > > In the case of your computer work, that would seem to be the case if you are > actually processing the TV/music. Query, does chatting include in-person, > online, phone, or some combination thereof? In the case of you reading... it > would seem as if your multi-tasking isn't working the way you want it to if > the background noises can actually distract you from your reading. Um, all of the above? eMail, AIM (and like systems), phone, in-person, eavesdropping... ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Tue Nov 26 13:03:47 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:03:47 -0600 Subject: Thanksgiving Message-ID: <3DE3E1B3.4000305@attbi.com> What are everyone's Thanksgiving favorites??? We're trying cornbread and oyster dressing this year. I used to do apple/prune/walnut dressing, and then Paul Prudhomme's gingersnap gravy. Yum. Mia From tyan at twcny.rr.com Tue Nov 26 13:04:29 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:04:29 -0500 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126000405.0258d080@localhost> (Steven Brust's message of "Tue, 26 Nov 2002 00:06:52 -0800") References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126000405.0258d080@localhost> Message-ID: Steven Brust writes: -snip- > The reason I like the term, however, is that it doesn't, so far as I > know, mean, "that disgusts me." It more means, "I don't care for > that." In my experience, it means "that freaks me out / disturbs me a lot", which is much stronger than "I don't care for that", and thus is closer to "that disgusts me". > In other words, it is a way to say, "I have no interest in that > activity," without saying, "ICK. YUCK! YOU MUST BE *SICK*." This > is especially important if the latter is what you're actually > thinking. I think I would agree, however, that indeed it does not necessarily convey "that freaks me out, therefore if you [like it] / [aren't bothered by it] there is something wrong with you". On ASB, where it apparently was first used on Usenet, I think a mantra was -"that is not my kink, but your kink is ok"-. > I believe Miss Manners would thoroughly approve of the term. Heh. - tky From rick at 404.978.org Tue Nov 26 13:12:17 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:12:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: Kink and Squick (a new animated movie?) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126000405.0258d080@localhost> Message-ID: <3334.192.168.1.1.1038345137.squirrel@404.978.org> I think the recent description of "squeamish + ick" is an excellent one (sorry, forgot who!). More of the world needs to grok the idea of "that is not my kink, but it's okay if it's yours" for non-socially- dangerous values of kink. -Rick Thomas Yan said: > Steven Brust writes: > > -snip- >> The reason I like the term, however, is that it doesn't, so far as I >> know, mean, "that disgusts me." It more means, "I don't care for >> that." > > In my experience, it means "that freaks me out / disturbs me a lot", > which is much stronger than "I don't care for that", and thus is > closer to "that disgusts me". > >> In other words, it is a way to say, "I have no interest in that >> activity," without saying, "ICK. YUCK! YOU MUST BE *SICK*." This is >> especially important if the latter is what you're actually >> thinking. > > I think I would agree, however, that indeed it does not necessarily > convey "that freaks me out, therefore if you [like it] / [aren't > bothered by it] there is something wrong with you". On ASB, where it > apparently was first used on Usenet, I think a mantra was -"that is not > my kink, but your kink is ok"-. > >> I believe Miss Manners would thoroughly approve of the term. > > Heh. > > - tky From tyan at twcny.rr.com Tue Nov 26 13:20:06 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:20:06 -0500 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: (Nytemuse's message of "Tue, 26 Nov 2002 10:12:49 -0800 (PST)") References: Message-ID: Nytemuse writes: > On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, David Goldfarb wrote: >> Um, I'm sorry, but if we have to use spoiler space for classic works >> of literature that are a half-century old, then we have to use spoiler >> space for EVERYTHING; and in my humble opinion that is just not reasonable. >> (I'm envisioning putting in spoiler space before talking about how >> Jesus came back from the dead....) I think it is courteous to protect big spoilers, no matter how old or readily available the work. > Do you really make THAT many references to events in literature? This is > the first time, in the months that I've been on the list, that I've seen a > citation of plot w/o space. AOL. > Besides, I don't care so much about the actual 20 lines of blank > space as I do of just mentioning in ONE LINE at the beginning of the > post that there are possible spoilers for some book, which doesn't > seem too _unreasonable_ to me. Not everyone is obviously as > advanced in literature and history as you. Luckily, the bit about the finger is not a big spoiler, so although I agree with your sentiments, I don't think they apply strongly in this case. The bit about Gandalf is a biggish spoiler, but the trailers for "The Two Towers" give it away, so I regard protecting that as largely a lost cause right now. Maybe in a few years it will be worth protecting again. OK. I better stop here before repeating everything I've said before about spoiler protection. - tky From seanp at ea.com Tue Nov 26 13:20:42 2002 From: seanp at ea.com (Penney, Sean) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:20:42 -0800 Subject: Thanksgiving Message-ID: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F59532@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Mia grossed us out by saying: >We're trying cornbread and oyster dressing this year. I'm sorry, but that sounds DISGUSTING! I've never had cornbread dressing before - on it's own I'll bet it's good. From jjm57 at cornell.edu Tue Nov 26 13:23:13 2002 From: jjm57 at cornell.edu (Jeremy Michel) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:23:13 -0500 Subject: marinating mushrooms WAS: Re: A question on FHYA Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126162230.00ab19f0@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> speaking of recipes does anyone know Cowboy Fengs Matzah Ball recipe (i've had ogod matzah ball soup before and would like to compare) From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Nov 26 13:26:17 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:26:17 -0500 Subject: Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F59532@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Message-ID: On Tuesday, November 26, 2002, at 04:20 PM, Penney, Sean wrote: > Mia grossed us out by saying: > >> We're trying cornbread and oyster dressing this year. > > > I'm sorry, but that sounds DISGUSTING! > > I've never had cornbread dressing before - on it's own I'll bet it's > good. Heh, I second that remark but the cornbread dressing does sound good. A winter storm will probably keep us at home so we got an emrgency turkeky. Oh and our Dish of the Holiday is Waldorf salad. --- "I won't eat anything I can't pronounce."---overheard in class From Randi128 at aol.com Tue Nov 26 13:42:13 2002 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:42:13 EST Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: <17e.1287c57a.2b1544b5@aol.com> Lady birdsleeps wrote> I suppose my belief in doorknobs is also a religeon? It depends. Do you know there is a doorknob or just take it on faith? I can prove whether or not a door knob exists. This makes a great religeon, no arguments or doubts. Ladybirdsleeps wrote: There's an important difference between saying "I don't believe in God" and "I believe there is no God". I meant what I said. Atheists believe there is no god. Period. To say that you no longer, or do not beleive in god does not make you an atheist it makes you someone who has lost their faith. You still acknowledge Gods existance you just no longer have faith. I must apologize if I used the two interchangably, I am very busy today and have been answering these in between patients. Thankyou for pointing that out. Ladybirdsleeps also writes>I find it difficult to understand how someone holding a degree in philosophy could fail to see the difference. There are other websites where you can bait and insult people. Maybe you should find one. I hold a minor in philosophy from LeMoyne college in Syracuse, New York. As to the rest , sorry I'm going home. see you all next week. Happy Thanksgiving. John D. Barbato From mneme at io.com Tue Nov 26 13:57:43 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:57:43 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <17e.1287c57a.2b1544b5@aol.com> References: <17e.1287c57a.2b1544b5@aol.com> Message-ID: <15843.61015.176661.413207@hagbard.io.com> Randi128 at aol.com writes: > Lady birdsleeps wrote> I suppose my belief in doorknobs is also a >religeon? It can be. When I took a course on religons, an example included The Great Broom. :) IMO, it involves two things: Axiomatic, non-derived truths...and religous practice (ritual). But like everything else, it's a fuzzy set. >I meant what I said. Atheists believe there is no god. Period. That's one definition. Another (older) one is that Agnosticism is a form of Atheism -- where all atheists are not theist (ie, do not believe in "god"), agnostics emphasise their lack of knowledge, where other types of atheists may have a certainty, or at least stronger belief in the lack of the supernatural, validity of faith-based religons, or whatnot. >To say that you no longer, or do not beleive in god does not make you >an atheist it makes you someone who has lost their faith. This, on the other hand, is bull pocky (which unlike "Men's Pocky", isn't particularly edible. It presumes a whole mess of garbage, from dualistic views of religion (ie, either monotheistic or atheistic) to all people under consideration being raised in a specific or specific religons. I'm a self-professed neopagan agnostic, who is tribally Jewish. I haven't "lost my faith" -- I have plenty of faith, in a variety of things...but I don't have any specific beliefs about what, if anything, is beyond the fields we know. And that faith I've discarded isn't "lost" -- it was taken to pieces and discarded as no longer useful. I find the phrase "lost their faith" to be somewhat insulting. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From eriktdahl at yahoo.com Tue Nov 26 13:58:14 2002 From: eriktdahl at yahoo.com (Erik Dahl) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:58:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: E'Barritt Line? Message-ID: <20021126215814.22100.qmail@web13702.mail.yahoo.com> I was rereading /Jhereg/ while waiting for /Paths of the Dead/ to appear at my local bookstore, and I came across a reference to the first Dragon-Jhereg war. The book says that "The e'Kieron line was almost wiped out, and for a while it seemed the e'Barritt line had been" (Jhereg, p74). This confused me. I thought I remember it being a point of /Dragon/ that when Barritt died, his descendants began calling themselves e'Barritt as a tribute to his greatness. So how could there have been any e'Barritts before the Interregnum, let alone during the first Dragon-Jhereg war? Anyone have any ideas? From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Nov 26 14:16:35 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:16:35 -0800 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <20021126171859.66503.qmail@web12707.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126141008.02583540@localhost> At 09:18 AM 11/26/2002 -0800, Andrew McGuigan wrote: >What if the truth *is* that there are really god(s)? >Certainly it makes sense to write about that >possibility as any other. > >Also, it seems we had some kind of religion for what, >5000 years? (Egyptians being 3000 B.C. I believe) So >why not in the far future? > To say, "there has always been religion" and leave it at that is like saying, "there has always been interest in numbers," as if our understanding of mathematics has not progressed in the last five thousand years. This would lead to the conclusion that any place you put your finger on the time line of man's knowledge of mathematics is as valid as any other; we can thus throw out logarithms, the square root of -1, all of calculous, &tc &tc. Man's religious beliefs have changed over the millennia. In my opinion, an examination of these changes would lead to the conclusion that the gods have been shrinking. Those areas where the supernatural is required for understanding have gotten smaller and smaller. The idea that they might vanish entirely in the not-to-distant future doesn't seem farfetched to me. On the other hand, it might be that the devil is making me say this. >--- David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > "Matt Bogen" writes: > > > > > Seems to me that humans, no matter where they have > > evolved, have worshipped > > > something - whether animist spirits, ancestors, or > > creating a polytheist or > > > monotheist system. Humans want some explanation > > for what's out there, > > > something beyond our immediate tactile knowledge. > > And no matter how far out > > > in space humans go, these influences will follow - > > whether individual > > > characters believe them or not - because they are > > human. Alien races have > > > their own problems to deal with. :) > > > > But eventually we will learn to look for our > > explanations in ways more > > likely to produce the truth. > > From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Nov 26 14:24:25 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:24:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: <200211262224.gAQMOKu13735@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Steven Brust wrote: > On the other hand, it might be that the devil is making me say this. I am not!! Geesh... blame me for everything... Chris From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Nov 26 14:30:15 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:30:15 -0600 (CST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: Mia McDavid's message <3DE3D664.8010704@attbi.com> of 26 November 2002 References: <20021126171859.66503.qmail@web12707.mail.yahoo.com> <3DE3D664.8010704@attbi.com> Message-ID: <15843.62967.772019.588408@gw.dd-b.net> Mia McDavid writes on 26 November 2002 at 14:15:32 -0600 > DDB said: > > >Lots of things we've been doing for thousands of years that we're > >starting to give up, and a good thing too. > > Ummm, yeah. Like war, right? ;-> Yes. We've given up a *lot* of war. And we're even starting to require international consensus to wage it. Even when we, the remaining superpower, are involved. Slavery is another one we've made great progress in giving up. We're also improving our record on ecological stability fairly quickly. Not to say we've *arrived* on these or any other issues, mind you! -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Tue Nov 26 17:29:06 2002 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:29:06 -0800 Subject: *frustrated* Message-ID: <200211261729.AA1530659292@amish2000.com> >On Mon, 2002-11-25 at 23:42, Jag wrote: >> On Tue, 2002-11-26 at 02:14, M J wrote: >> > Well, Paarfi's words are mutating on the pages of my books again, >> > so I can't find the quote I want, but -- >> > >> > "So, is Zerika Tortaalik-n-Noima's granddaughter, or what?" >> >> I don't believe so. At one point in FHYA, there is a member of the >> court from the House of the Phoenix who mentions to Khaavren that his >> wife is about to have a child and wonders if they should stay in the >> city or not, and Khaavren urges them to leave as soon as possible. I >> believe that Zerika is that child. YES, BUT -- I don't think anyone's ever questioned that Zerika's the child of Vernoi and Loudin. I mean, Morrolan-n-Aliera came right out and said it. What I was wondering was that, since Tortaalik and Noima did have a child, whether Loudin was that child. If she was, that would make Zerika Tortaalik's granddaughter. ? MJ From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Nov 26 14:37:02 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:37:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: <200211262236.gAQMawu16393@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Yes. We've given up a *lot* of war. And we're even starting to > require international consensus to wage it. Even when we, the > remaining superpower, are involved. > > Slavery is another one we've made great progress in giving up. > > We're also improving our record on ecological stability fairly > quickly. > > Not to say we've *arrived* on these or any other issues, mind you! Phew! Glad I caught that before I started in. Wasn't going to be that bad, just a comment that, though we've made progress, we've also side-stepped many issues. I mean, yes we've made progress, but in some issues, instead of "fixing" the problem, we seem to just shuffle it around, creating new problems, or calling old problems new names. We may have come far in the last few centuries, but compared to where I'd like to see us, we're a LONG way off... (Kinda like congratulating the marathon runner after the first hundred yards...:) Chris (Who's way too messed in the head. Optimism and Pessimism? Sure!;) "He is a lover of his country who rebukes and does not excuse its sins." - Frederick Douglass From dar at horusinc.com Tue Nov 26 14:38:05 2002 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:38:05 -0600 Subject: LOTR and Christianity (apologies) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Started to respond to a series of emails and then realized a serious error on my part... I write LOTR and I *think* LOTR, tS, UT, & BOLT1-whatever... So... I am looking at a larger picture. My bad. People still want to debate, that's fine, but remind me in two weeks when I have time to drag everything out of the basement. I will also say that I do not think that T. had the goal as L. in writing a specifically NT/Christian allegory, merely that his writings are rich in Christian mystic/mythic imagery. David From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Nov 26 14:44:03 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 26 Nov 2002 16:44:03 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <162.17b79431.2b15180a@aol.com> References: <162.17b79431.2b15180a@aol.com> Message-ID: Randi128 at aol.com writes: > dd-b wrote:> I get cranky when far-future societies have anything > recognizable as religeon, personally. Makes no sense it would last that long. > > People, we are talking about fiction. There can be religeon or atheism or > whatever the author wants to have. Atheism is a religeon of non-belief in > god. So even atheists have a religeon. Now, that last is one of the standard slanders against atheism. I hereby take offense. Can we take the rant as read, though? Trying to keep a civil tone and all. Although I will stoop to correcting spelling: "religion". -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Nov 26 14:44:37 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 26 Nov 2002 16:44:37 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <20021126191622.GB1988@infodancer.org> References: <162.17b79431.2b15180a@aol.com> <200211261847.gAQIlTAB043480@realtime.exit.com> <20021126191622.GB1988@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Matthew Hunter writes: > On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 10:47:29AM -0800, Frank Mayhar wrote: > > Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > > > Atheism is a religeon of non-belief in > > > god. So even atheists have a religeon. > > I dare you to say that on alt.atheism.moderated! (Boy, would _you_ be > > sorry! :-) > > > > In my life (and in that of any of the other atheists I know), religion > > plays no part whatsoever. Atheism is quite emphatically _not_ a religion. > > (Of course, one can make it so, but then one can make pretty much _anything_ > > a religion.) > > Atheism can be defined as faith in the non-existance of God, > above and beyond the evidence available. A tail can be defined as a leg. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Nov 26 14:47:46 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 26 Nov 2002 16:47:46 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Casey Rousseau" writes: > It may boil down to the difference between: > > I believe in no god. > and > I believe there is no god > > The first is not a statement of religion. The second is indistinguishable > from a religion. Not in my universe (blue sky, first guy on the moon Neil Armstrong). My belief that there is no god is because all the claims for a god have failed spectacularly to prove themselves. Non-belief is the default state, and there's no evidence to move me from it. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Nov 26 14:48:04 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:48:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: <200211262248.gAQMm0u20789@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > > Atheism can be defined as faith in the non-existance of God, > > above and beyond the evidence available. > > A tail can be defined as a leg. And "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar..." Chris (who must be bored at work, though he should be doing more of it...:) From dar at horusinc.com Tue Nov 26 14:48:30 2002 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:48:30 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126000405.0258d080@localhost> Message-ID: > >Hmmmm... > >I don't know about that... > >Whenever I use, or have seen squick used it has a sexual connotation. > > Whenever I've either heard or used the term, it has been related to an > activity that is sexual to at least some people. On the other hand, I'm > having trouble coming up with an actifity that isn't sexual to at least > some people. > The reason I like the term, however, is that it doesn't, so far > as I know, mean, "that disgusts me." It more means, "I don't care for that." In > other words, it is a way to say, "I have no interest in that activity," > without saying, "ICK. YUCK! YOU MUST BE *SICK*." This is especially > important if the latter is what you're actually thinking. The consusus (though a small sample, n=4) of the Delta-Green list (Modern day Cthulhu RPG FYI) was there is a sexual connotation, with pointing towards alt.sex also. I have to admit that for me, anything that has a scale that reaches 'squicky' goes beyond something of the scale of BDSM (Nothing wrong with that!), scat-play (which is merely, IMHO, gross), paedophillia (just plain sad, even if it is gut-wrenching) and devolves into the pervo-necro-shubby-sex level of squeamishness... You have to get pretty far down in the gutter before *I* consider you a pervert. > I believe Miss Manners would thoroughly approve of the term. LOL! Probably... David From dar at horusinc.com Tue Nov 26 14:48:31 2002 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:48:31 -0600 Subject: Spoilers for LOTR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Agaaaaggggrrrrhhhhh! This just came up on a list that my wife is on also. I have to say that I don't think you need to have spoiler space for LOTR. Certainly not on a Fantasy literature list where frankly, there is a general assumption among 'fandom' that you *have* read the series. Even if you haven't, most people have managed to pick up on the major point(s): The Good Guys win and it predates the 'Dark Fantasy' era of writing where they have to ruin the world and themselves in the process. There have been previous movies, radio drama, and it's major piece of literature that has been in print since the 50's. The better point might be that people might want to re-title a thread now and again David From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Nov 26 14:43:58 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:43:58 -0800 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126000405.0258d080@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126144332.0257d7a0@localhost> At 01:22 PM 11/26/2002 -0400, Loki wrote: >On 11/26/02 4:06 AM, "Steven Brust" wrote: > > > ... I'm > > having trouble coming up with an actifity that isn't sexual to at least > > some people. > >Bing! Welcome to the sigfile quote rotation, Mr. Brust. :) > >Well, except that I fixed the spelling. Thanks for using it, and double thanks for fixing the spelling. From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Nov 26 14:51:15 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 26 Nov 2002 16:51:15 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> References: <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <15843.46891.246035.618358@gw.dd-b.net> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> Message-ID: Mia McDavid writes: > DDB said: > > >It's going strong *here*, and in a lot of third-world places, but it's > >remarkably dead throughout the rest of the developed world. We're > >kind of an outlier. > > Yeah, but the rest of the developed world (Europe, yes?) only > represents a few percent of humankind. You apparently believe that > they indicate the direction that the rest of us are going in; given > enough time and resources. Yes. Developing out of savagery into civilization and then into modernity seems to consistently involve shucking that nonsense. > Maybe. We are, after all, talking about the future. > You've made me curious, though. What is *their* answer to "why, why, why?" The obsessive need to know "answers" to meaningless "questions" is (and should be recognized as) a personality disorder. We'll eventually learn to treat it, and root out the memes that lead to it. My need to believe in goals, order, and a direction to evolution (for example) impose no obligation on the universe to actually work that way. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Nov 26 14:52:48 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:52:48 -0500 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126144332.0257d7a0@localhost> Message-ID: On Tuesday, November 26, 2002, at 05:43 PM, Steven Brust wrote: > At 01:22 PM 11/26/2002 -0400, Loki wrote: >> On 11/26/02 4:06 AM, "Steven Brust" wrote: >> >> > ... I'm >> > having trouble coming up with an actifity that isn't sexual to at >> least >> > some people. >> >> Bing! Welcome to the sigfile quote rotation, Mr. Brust. :) >> >> Well, except that I fixed the spelling. > > Thanks for using it, and double thanks for fixing the spelling. > > I need a new quote for my sigfile rotation, Steve want to chime in with a suggestion? --- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds; and the pessimist fears this is true." -- James Branch Cabell From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Nov 26 14:55:05 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 26 Nov 2002 16:55:05 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126000405.0258d080@localhost> Message-ID: Thomas Yan writes: > Steven Brust writes: > > -snip- > > The reason I like the term, however, is that it doesn't, so far as I > > know, mean, "that disgusts me." It more means, "I don't care for > > that." > > In my experience, it means "that freaks me out / disturbs me a lot", > which is much stronger than "I don't care for that", and thus is > closer to "that disgusts me". I think of it as "that disgusts me, glad you like it" or some such. I *do* think it indicates a fairly strong negative reaction. > > In other words, it is a way to say, "I have no interest in that > > activity," without saying, "ICK. YUCK! YOU MUST BE *SICK*." This > > is especially important if the latter is what you're actually > > thinking. > > I think I would agree, however, that indeed it does not necessarily > convey "that freaks me out, therefore if you [like it] / [aren't > bothered by it] there is something wrong with you". On ASB, where it > apparently was first used on Usenet, I think a mantra was -"that is > not my kink, but your kink is ok"-. My canonical version is "Your kink is ok, but it is not my kink". > > I believe Miss Manners would thoroughly approve of the term. > > Heh. She might well. Although it's pretty honest for her. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Nov 26 14:57:21 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 26 Nov 2002 16:57:21 -0600 Subject: Donaldson (was RE: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Davis, Iain E." writes: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: David Dyer-Bennet [mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net] > > > I'm sure I was picking new authors on my own at 9. Maybe > > earlier. Until I was in 8th grade, I wasn't around anybody > > else who was into fantasy and SF, so I didn't get many suggestions. > > Same here, at least, that were I my age group. Of course, I'm not sure > how many of my *cough* peers could actually read... Pretty much at all. (The person in 8th grade was my English teacher; he'd loan me a stack of a half dozen or so books from his collection each week to read.) And by the time friends were reading the stuff, I was so far ahead of them they never found anything new for me. Until college, anyway. > Fortunately, my mother had a great many books covering a broad range of > Fantasy and SF plus some Mystery and other things. Throw in the few > westerns I liked from Grandma's collection, and some of the stuff my > Great Grandmother liked (I'm not sure where those fall) I had a pretty > broad selection of books to choose from. Sounds good. We didn't have that much fiction at home, and no sf or fantasy, so it was all from libraries, or mine. I did find Dorothy Sayers at home, I remember. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From akomins at midway.uchicago.edu Tue Nov 26 14:59:54 2002 From: akomins at midway.uchicago.edu (Arin Komins) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:59:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: Music and books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Julie Alipaz wrote: :Subject: Music and books : :> :>To the left, I do sometimes listen to music while reading, and I find :>that sometimes what I'm reading is so interesting that I start :>ignoring the music, and sometimes the music is so compelling that I no :>longer give the text my full attention. Some people have spoken of a :>particular piece of music being a good "soundtrack" for a particular :>written work, but I have not yet found such an example that works for :>me. : :Steven King's Talisamn (Sp?) and the best of the doors double CD--- I :don't read King, except for this novel, and I was in a remote place :with limited choices, but the doors album fits absolutely perfectly. : Robert Holdstock's Mythago Wood and Tangerine Dream's Logos. Made the perfect soundtrack for me. Thx, Arin -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Arin Komins akomins at uchicago.edu Manager of Web Systems Architecture University of Chicago/NSIT tel: (773)834-4087 1155 E. 60th St. #302B Chicago, IL 60637 fax: (773)702-0559 ------------------------------------------------------------------ From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Nov 26 15:01:21 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 26 Nov 2002 17:01:21 -0600 Subject: A different Track In-Reply-To: <20021126194626.GA10348@galadriel.alyra.org> References: <20021126194626.GA10348@galadriel.alyra.org> Message-ID: Kat writes: > I am fascinated with the myriad ways that people's brains process different > types of data at the same time. For any who wish to share, a query: > > 1. Are any of you musicians? I had a really weird moment at a Renaissance > faire last spring - I was listening to a pipe & drum band play a lively tune > along with a non-musician partner; after a handful of measures he turned to > me and said, "is the snare in any way at all related to what the bagpipes > are playing?" I was astounded; the snares were playing a rich counter-rythm > and apparrently he couldn't hear the relationship *at all*; the quantity of > the difference in cognition was suprising. I am curious to know if being / > not being a musician affects the types of music that work or don't work with > your multi-tasking in any predictable way. Interesting in connection to work music. I've seen a tendency for musicians to have broader tastes in music than their listeners, at least. And for musicians to have less critical tastes in stereo equipment than non-musicians (I *think* I've corrected for the traditional poverty of musicians here, but I could be wrong). It makes sense that a muscian might be more likely to be fully engaged by the music, hence find it clashes with other things. > > From: Nytemuse [mailto:nytemuse at auros.org] > > > I don't necessarily agree. My b/f had the hardest time understanding why > > > I couldn't get any work done on the computer or doing homework or > > > something without the TV on or music or chatting with someone. > > Are you actually processing the TV/music at the same time you're doing work? > or is it white noise in this case? > > I also have a situation in which I need extra input of a different type - > lecture. Processing a spoken monologue for any length of time over about 5 > minutes will drive me up the wall and send me deep into my own thoughts in > search of more stimulation and input, unless a) the person has a great enough > density of information in their speech such that I'm devoting all of my > effort to it, or b) I either draw stuff or play a minesweeper-type game. I > just wish I'd figured this out in high school instead of my last year of > college... doodling was always frowned upon because it meant you weren't > "paying attention", so for awhile I kept telling myself I wasn't supposed to > be doing it. > > If anyone else has extra-input needs, I'd be interested in hearing them. I survived some audio-cassette courses at one point by playing them at double-speed on an old cassette recorder (thus playing them at twice the original frequency, too). The distortion of the speech added enough cognitive work that I didn't get bored having to go through them at only *double* the usual data rate. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Nov 26 15:05:33 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 26 Nov 2002 17:05:33 -0600 Subject: Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: <3DE3E1B3.4000305@attbi.com> References: <3DE3E1B3.4000305@attbi.com> Message-ID: Mia McDavid writes: > What are everyone's Thanksgiving favorites??? > > We're trying cornbread and oyster dressing this year. I used to do > apple/prune/walnut dressing, and then Paul Prudhomme's gingersnap > gravy. Yum. There is only One True stuffing -- bread and herbs. Peperidge farm breadcrumbs (not cubes), with onion, cellery, summer savory, thyme, black pepper, and lots of butter and some broth added. Luckily I've learned to make it myself, so I'm not dependent on outside suppliers (except peperidge farm). -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Nov 26 15:03:17 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:03:17 -0800 Subject: Domino's Lute In-Reply-To: <114.1b2e0f75.2b152960@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126145741.0271ed90@localhost> At 02:45 PM 11/26/2002 -0500, Randi128 at aol.com wrote: >Dennis wrote: Atheism is not a religion, but there are people who may make it >into one. > >Atheists believe there is no God. Religion is a belief. By answering the >question 'Do you believe in God' you are professing your religeous beliefs. >The only way to be non-religeous is to not even acknowledge the question. It is certainly possible to define religion that way. It even makes a certain amount of sense. But then we're left with needing a word that means, belief in and reverence for a superhuman power. Right now we have a perfectly good word for that: religion. If you want religion to mean something else, please supply me with a word that means what we now mean by religion, so we can talk about it. From electrictwilight at hotmail.com Tue Nov 26 14:59:10 2002 From: electrictwilight at hotmail.com (H. T.) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 22:59:10 +0000 Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: >Atheism is a religeon of non-belief in god. So even atheists have a >religeon. According to the book "Our Religions" and the damn instructor who taught the course that used that horrible book, both Buddhism and Taoism are "atheistic" religions (did I spell it correctly? heh.). Therefore, I suppose one can say, some Atheists have religion to the point they have a name for what they believe in. (Is this a contradiction? Not sure.) Just thought I might point this fact out. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From seanp at ea.com Tue Nov 26 15:09:48 2002 From: seanp at ea.com (Penney, Sean) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:09:48 -0800 Subject: Thanksgiving Message-ID: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F59539@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >There is only One True stuffing -- bread and herbs. Peperidge farm >breadcrumbs (not cubes), with onion, cellery, summer savory, thyme, >black pepper, and lots of butter and some broth added. Luckily I've >learned to make it myself, so I'm not dependent on outside suppliers >(except peperidge farm). A few years ago my mother started making a spectacular dressing that has sausage meat in it. I know! I was also skeptical at first , but it's excellent - moist and flavourful and the sausage does not overpower the dressing. I'm afraid I don't know what kind of sausage she uses, but I'm betting it's not Chorizo. From seanp at ea.com Tue Nov 26 15:13:50 2002 From: seanp at ea.com (Penney, Sean) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:13:50 -0800 Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F5953A@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> >Atheism is a religeon of non-belief in god. So even atheists have a >religeon. >According to the book "Our Religions" and the damn instructor who taught the >course that used that horrible book, both Buddhism and Taoism are >"atheistic" religions (did I spell it correctly? heh.). >Therefore, I suppose one can say, some Atheists have religion to the point >they have a name for what they believe in. (Is this a contradiction? Not >sure.) Gah! Your prof was an "oxymoronic" knob. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Tue Nov 26 15:18:45 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:18:45 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com><15843.46891.246035.618358@gw.dd-b.net> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> Message-ID: David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Mia McDavid writes: > >> DDB said: >> >> >It's going strong *here*, and in a lot of third-world places, but >> it's >remarkably dead throughout the rest of the developed world. >> We're >kind of an outlier. >> >> Yeah, but the rest of the developed world (Europe, yes?) only >> represents a few percent of humankind. You apparently believe that >> they indicate the direction that the rest of us are going in; given >> enough time and resources. > > Yes. Developing out of savagery into civilization and then into > modernity seems to consistently involve shucking that nonsense. > >> Maybe. > > We are, after all, talking about the future. > >> You've made me curious, though. What is *their* answer to "why, >> why, why?" > > The obsessive need to know "answers" to meaningless "questions" is > (and should be recognized as) a personality disorder. We'll > eventually learn to treat it, and root out the memes that lead to it. > My need to believe in goals, order, and a direction to evolution (for > example) impose no obligation on the universe to actually work that > way. This brings up a though I had not but a week ago, we are constantly focused on finding an answer to some question, when I think it's clear we ought to be asking better questions. Question the question if it answers; answer it. From mneme at io.com Tue Nov 26 15:21:18 2002 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:21:18 -0600 Subject: Domino's Lute In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126145741.0271ed90@localhost> References: <114.1b2e0f75.2b152960@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20021126145741.0271ed90@localhost> Message-ID: <15844.494.844242.742191@hagbard.io.com> Steven Brust writes: >It is certainly possible to define religion that way. It even makes a >certain amount of sense. But then we're left with needing a word that >means, belief in and reverence for a superhuman power. I think that's "'holy other'-style religon". There are lots of existing, self-proclaimed religons that don't have belief or reverence for a superhuman power -- Zen (the universal counterexample, and usually mixed up with a lot of superstitions that -do- have supernatural powers attached, but nevertheless); confucianism, and discordianism don't, certainly. (also, a lot of things are hard to seperate -- a lot of religons that feature belief in and/or reverance for superhuman powers also have other distinctive aspects; reverence for stories, traditions, or codes of behavior, which are part of religion and tend to get unfairly deemphasized if you overemphasize the "holy other" bit). -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From rone at ennui.org Tue Nov 26 15:21:27 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:21:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: from David Dyer-Bennet at "Nov 26, 2002 04:47:46 pm" Message-ID: <20021126232127.3149A26E32@boredom.ennui.org> David Dyer-Bennet writes: My belief that there is no god is because all the claims for a god have failed spectacularly to prove themselves. Non-belief is the default state, and there's no evidence to move me from it. I think the difference is more explicitly, "I believe there is no god," versus, "I deny that your god, or any god, exists." The latter definitely requires a certitude that lacks proof, which some people would call "faith". rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From rone at ennui.org Tue Nov 26 15:22:01 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:22:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F5953A@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> from "Penney, Sean" at "Nov 26, 2002 03:13:50 pm" Message-ID: <20021126232201.B869E26E33@boredom.ennui.org> Penney, Sean writes: Gah! Your prof was an "oxymoronic" knob. So we're back to belief in doorknobs? rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From eriktdahl at yahoo.com Tue Nov 26 15:24:30 2002 From: eriktdahl at yahoo.com (Erik Dahl) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:24:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: <20021126232430.81265.qmail@web13709.mail.yahoo.com> I find this recent trend towards defining atheism as a religion of non-belief very disconcerting. Instead of maintaining that atheism is "belief in no god," or "belief there is no god," can't we say instead that it is "no belief in god?" For me, at any rate, it is more about not believing in something than believing in something opposed to something else. I'm aiming for accuracy of the term; I don't wish to offend anyone. From electrictwilight at hotmail.com Tue Nov 26 15:31:34 2002 From: electrictwilight at hotmail.com (H. T.) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 23:31:34 +0000 Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: >Penney, Sean writes: >Gah! Your prof was an "oxymoronic" knob. > So we're back to belief in doorknobs? Yeah. So is being an "oxymoronic knob" like being an "Orthodox Knob"? Perhaps I should check out this doorknob thing, it sounds easier than trying to make sense out of anything. ~ H.T. -- bowing to the closest doorknob _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Nov 26 15:34:18 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:34:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth Message-ID: <200211262334.gAQNYEu28241@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > The consusus (though a small sample, n=4) of the Delta-Green list (Modern > day Cthulhu RPG FYI) was there is a sexual connotation, with pointing > towards alt.sex also. THANK YOU!! I KNEW that I had seen this debate before... One of the Cthulhu-lists I'm on, then. OK, I'm not going crazy. Uh... fine. I'm already crazy, I'll admit. You know what I mean! Heh. Chris From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Tue Nov 26 15:34:30 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:34:30 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <15843.46891.246035.618358@gw.dd-b.net> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> Message-ID: <3DE40506.9010901@attbi.com> DDB wrote: >The obsessive need to know "answers" to meaningless "questions" is (and should be recognized as) a personality disorder. We'll eventually learn to treat it, and root out the memes that lead to it. You have great faith indeed. Mia From rone at ennui.org Tue Nov 26 15:37:09 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:37:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <20021126232430.81265.qmail@web13709.mail.yahoo.com> from Erik Dahl at "Nov 26, 2002 03:24:30 pm" Message-ID: <20021126233709.5103926E31@boredom.ennui.org> Erik Dahl writes: I find this recent trend towards defining atheism as a religion of non-belief very disconcerting. Instead of maintaining that atheism is "belief in no god," or "belief there is no god," can't we say instead that it is "no belief in god?" For me, at any rate, it is more about not believing in something than believing in something opposed to something else. I'm aiming for accuracy of the term; I don't wish to offend anyone. That's traditionally called agnosticism. rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Nov 26 15:36:57 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:36:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth Message-ID: <200211262336.gAQNaru28607@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > I need a new quote for my sigfile rotation, Steve want to chime in with > a suggestion? Oh dear lord... Do you have ANY idea of the kind of CatBag you just opened?!? I'm probably going to have to add a few to my own sig list... And it's got half a dozen at the moment! Ah, well. Can't be helped...:) Chris From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Tue Nov 26 15:41:57 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:41:57 -0600 Subject: Domino's Lute References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126145741.0271ed90@localhost> Message-ID: <3DE406C5.3040908@attbi.com> The term I use is 'belief' and 'believer.' I tend to dislike 'religious' because it is often identified with outward show and trappings as opposed to really trying to walk the walk. Of course, I contend that an atheist "believes" in the absence of God (unlike a blue sky, not easily provable). So, we're no farther forrader, are we? 'Faith' and 'faithful', same problem. DDB expresses great faith in his atheistic worldview. What about 'mystic?' What we're really looking for, I think, is the antonym to 'materialist.' Mia From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Tue Nov 26 15:44:01 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:44:01 -0600 Subject: Thanksgiving References: <3DE3E1B3.4000305@attbi.com> Message-ID: <3DE40741.6060409@attbi.com> One True Stuffing? Ah, the faith of my childhood. Problem is, Glenn doesn't really like New England cooking. We're still working on finding something that tastes like Thanksgiving to me and like food to him. Mia From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Nov 26 15:45:01 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:45:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: <200211262344.gAQNiwu29618@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Now, that last is one of the standard slanders against atheism. I > hereby take offense. Can we take the rant as read, though? Trying to > keep a civil tone and all. Although I will stoop to correcting > spelling: "religion". I have to agree. Atheism does get quite a bit of flak. The only reason I'm not one myself, is that it's still taking a firm stand on something that I can't see as being proven, one way or the other. But that's just me. I try to deal only in fact (which is why I'm such a cocky bastard...:) Chris "You know why I like talking about the Kennedy assasination? Because to me, it's a great archtype example of how the totalitarian government who rules this planet partitions off information in such a way that we, the masses, are forced to base our conclusions on erroneous... Oh, I'm sorry. Wrong meeting..." ~ Bill Hicks, Comedian of the Highest Order From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Nov 26 15:44:59 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 18:44:59 -0500 Subject: King Tut parody Message-ID: <13242E7C-0199-11D7-9557-00039386187A@adelphia.net> hi all Anyone remember an illustrated book that parodies the digging up of Tut's grave, only this book details the exploration of a roadside hotel? Its a long shot, but does anyone know the name, a fragment or the author's name? --- "It's a bad critic who tries to use fiction to psychoanalyze the author."---Orson Scott Card From slothman at amurgsval.org Tue Nov 26 15:46:33 2002 From: slothman at amurgsval.org (Max Rible) Date: 26 Nov 2002 15:46:33 -0800 Subject: Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: <3DE3E1B3.4000305@attbi.com> References: <3DE3E1B3.4000305@attbi.com> Message-ID: <1038354392.22585.27.camel@diogenes> On Tue, 2002-11-26 at 13:03, Mia McDavid wrote: > What are everyone's Thanksgiving favorites??? My fiancee is making her delectable calzone with spicy Italian sausage. She has a wonderful secret recipe for the bread that makes it very tasty (and works well for cinnamon rolls on Friday morning as well). (It's turkey sausage, in honor of the holiday.) -- %% Max Rible % slothman at amurgsval.org % www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %% %% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %% %% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." %% From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Nov 26 15:46:52 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 18:46:52 -0500 Subject: Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: <3DE40741.6060409@attbi.com> Message-ID: <56C68DCC-0199-11D7-9557-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Tuesday, November 26, 2002, at 06:44 PM, Mia McDavid wrote: > One True Stuffing? Ah, the faith of my childhood. > > Problem is, Glenn doesn't really like New England cooking. We're > still working on finding something that tastes like Thanksgiving to me > and like food to him. > > Mia What?? How can anyone NOT like New England cooking? :-) --- "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein From electrictwilight at hotmail.com Tue Nov 26 15:49:19 2002 From: electrictwilight at hotmail.com (H. T.) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 23:49:19 +0000 Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: >From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) >To: SKZB List >Subject: Re: Damiano's Lute >Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:37:09 -0800 (PST) > >Erik Dahl writes: > I find this recent trend towards defining atheism as a religion of > non-belief very disconcerting. Instead of maintaining that atheism > is "belief in no god," or "belief there is no god," can't we say > instead that it is "no belief in god?" For me, at any rate, it is > more about not believing in something than believing in something > opposed to something else. > I'm aiming for accuracy of the term; I don't wish to offend anyone. > >That's traditionally called agnosticism. > >rone Let's have some fun with this shall we? I just love looking things up that aren't that important --I'm just sick this way--, sometimes it answers loads of questions and other times it opens up others, but generally everyone is at least then on the same page. So: AGNOSTIC: 1. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God. 2. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism. 3. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something. WORD HISTORY: An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist. The term agnostic was fittingly coined by the 19th-century British scientist Thomas H. Huxley, who believed that only material phenomena were objects of exact knowledge. He made up the word from the prefix a-, meaning ?without, not,? as in amoral, and the noun Gnostic. Gnostic is related to the Greek word gnsis, ?knowledge,? which was used by early Christian writers to mean ?higher, esoteric knowledge of spiritual things? hence, Gnostic referred to those with such knowledge. In coining the term agnostic, Huxley was considering as ?Gnostics? a group of his fellow intellectuals?ists,? as he called themwho had eagerly embraced various doctrines or theories that explained the world to their satisfaction. Because he was a ?man without a rag of a label to cover himself with,? Huxley coined the term agnostic for himself, its first published use being in 1870. ATHEISM: 1. The disbelief or denial of the existence of a God, or supreme intelligent Being. Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness. --R. Hall. Atheism and pantheism are often wrongly confounded. --Shipley. 2. Godlessness __________________________________________________________- (Hummm, wonder if this means that my prof. and that writer of that horrible book were full of it or if this just fails to give a complete definition. Oh, I should point out there was a second book in that course that wasn't nearly as horrible, but it wasn't as complete.) _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Tue Nov 26 15:53:05 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:53:05 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: > Richard Suitor wrote: >> On Tue, 26 Nov 2002 07:33:05 -0800 (PST), Frank Mayhar >> >> wrote: >> >>> Mia McDavid wrote: >>>> Speaking of religion in literature, one of the *many* things I love >>>> about David Weber's work is that the Christian church is very much >>>> present in Honor's universe. I get cranky when societies have >>>> total absence of religion--individuals may be athiests, but humans >>>> as a group are going to worship *something*. >> >>> Um. Why? Any particular reason or just your personal prejudice? >>> (I don't mean that as an insult, I'm genuinely curious.) >> >> 1. There are some things that science can't answer, even in >> principle. >> >> 2. There are other things that in principle might be answered but >> aren't, >> because: >> >> A. Nobody understands the principles yet. >> >> B. Somebody professes to understand the principles, but the person >> involved doesn't understand. >> >> C. The principles might be understood, but not enough data is >> available >> yet - e.g. do I believe my (boss, employee, spouse, child, parent, >> neighbor) >> when I am told such and such? Am I (physically, mentally, >> emotionally) able >> to accomplish such and such? What will the (financial picture, >> resource >> picture, political picture) be in the future that I must plan for? >> >> >> I submit that to the person that doesn't understand, as in A and B, >> there is >> no operational difference between a scientist and a priest. The >> current >> flap over the Bogdanoffs' theses represents an extreme case of how >> limited >> the range of distinction can be. I am *not* presenting the >> Bogdanoffs as >> "priests" - I am saying that only a few people know enough to feel >> certain >> about their reasoning and the rest of us don't have the time and >> ability to >> come to a reliable opinion. Therefore most of us take much of >> science on >> the same sort of informed faith basis that the devout take the >> teachings of >> their faith. >> >> That in case C, the only approach is an informed faith. >> >> That given the observed spread in ability and access to training, a >> large >> percentage of the population is getting information from people who >> are >> operationally priests and they are making significant decisions based >> on >> informed faith. >> >> There are some other characteristics of the human psyche that play a >> role, >> but I think the above is sufficient for religions to develop. I'd be >> tempted to classify most economic and social theories as religions - >> i.e. >> the basic tenets are based on an informed faith. >> >> Notice I haven't mentioned a Supreme Being until now. I obviously >> don't >> consider that a necessary part of what I mean by a religion. >> Extrapolating >> the development of science backwards, I don't consider it odd that >> many >> religions developed such, but the question you asked might be >> extrapolated >> forward, also. I could conceive of a society without a culture based >> around >> a Supreme Being - I could not conceive of a society of evolutionary >> intelligent beings without religions. >> >> Richard > It looks like semantics to me because all I can see from the definitions of religion is that is does in fact have to do with a higher being or spiritual belief vs. a logistical belief. From eriktdahl at yahoo.com Tue Nov 26 16:01:32 2002 From: eriktdahl at yahoo.com (Erik Dahl) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:01:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: <20021127000132.71788.qmail@web13707.mail.yahoo.com> H. T. (>) wrote: > Let's have some fun with this shall we? I just love looking things up > that aren't that important --I'm just sick this way--, sometimes it > answers loads of questions and other times it opens up others, but > generally everyone is at least then on the same page. To complicate this further, I'll mention that for some reason your post struck me to wonder at the etymological relationship between "theism" and "atheism," and "gnosticism" and "agnosticism." Based on my limited understanding of gnosticism, I don't see the connection. :) From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Nov 26 16:13:17 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:13:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thanksgiving Message-ID: <200211270013.gAR0DDu03983@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > What?? How can anyone NOT like New England cooking? :-) That depends... Are we comparing it to, say, New Orleans cooking? And, as an aside, the first time I went to Boston (I've lived on the West Coast) I missed my chance at Clam Chowder the first night. The only other time I remember it was when we stopped at a McDonald's. There was no way IN HELL that I was going to have New Englad Clam Chowder at a friggin' McDonald's!!!! Just thought I'd share... :) Chris (who likes too many foods to name...:) From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Nov 26 16:16:23 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:16:23 -0500 Subject: Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: <200211270013.gAR0DDu03983@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <766EA7ED-019D-11D7-9B0A-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Tuesday, November 26, 2002, at 07:13 PM, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: >> What?? How can anyone NOT like New England cooking? :-) > > That depends... Are we comparing it to, say, New Orleans > cooking? > > And, as an aside, the first time I went to Boston (I've > lived on the West Coast) I missed my chance at Clam Chowder > the first night. The only other time I remember it was > when we stopped at a McDonald's. There was no way IN HELL > that I was going to have New Englad Clam Chowder at a > friggin' McDonald's!!!! > > Just thought I'd share... :) > > Chris (who likes too many foods to name...:) Hey hey, the McDonald's clam chowder is used as landfill in these parts. I don't like new Orleans food but I don't have anything against it. Now Chris, get out of Sun and come to new England and you'll learn about food :-) --- "We cannot accomplish great things - just little ones, with great love." -Mother Teresa From electrictwilight at hotmail.com Tue Nov 26 16:20:02 2002 From: electrictwilight at hotmail.com (H. T.) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 00:20:02 +0000 Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: >Penney, Sean writes: > > >I think it has promise: > > >O my Knob, I firmly believe that Thou art one Knob in three Divine >Organs: >Shlong, Testes and Holy Spunk; I believe that Thy divine >Testes became >man, and shriveled for our sins, and that They will come >to judge the >living and the dead. I believe these and all the truths >which the Holy >Organ teaches, because Thou hast revealed them, who >canst neither deceive >nor be deceived. Or this: Hail thee knob full of grace the door is with thee. Blessed is thee amongst handles and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, the key Holy knob which rests in the door pray for us spinners now and in the hour of our need Ht: *rolling her eyes and still bowing to the doorknob* _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From mam at theworld.com Tue Nov 26 16:21:44 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:21:44 -0500 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 26 Nov 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: #I get cranky when far-future societies have anything recognizable as #religion, personally. Makes no sense it would last that long. Oh, heck, why not say the same about sexism or bigotry? Do you get cranky about societies without those? Unless you foresee basic changes in human nature, I tend to agree with another poster that there is a very strong tendency in humans, in general, to look for patterns and powers beyond what is accessible to perception and reason. And if you change human nature your characters and their society will be harder for a reader to identify with or feel emotionally invested in. -- Mark A. Mandel From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Nov 26 16:25:32 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:25:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thanksgiving Message-ID: <200211270025.gAR0PTu05633@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Hey hey, the McDonald's clam chowder is used as landfill in these > parts. I don't like new Orleans food but I don't have anything against > it. Now Chris, get out of Sun and come to new England and you'll learn > about food :-) I've tried to get out of Sun. But the darn chains are just too damn strong!! So, it looks like we may have to have a Dragaera-List Cook-Off sometime... I'll bring my best recipe's, and we'll get some judges!! I haven't found many who could out-cook my New-Orleans- born ex, but I'm certainly willing to try!! All set and ready to eat again, Chris (Who should probably put on a pound or two anyway...) From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Nov 26 16:28:56 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:28:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: <200211270028.gAR0Squ06721@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Or this: > > Hail thee knob > full of grace > the door is with thee. > > Blessed is thee amongst handles > and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, the key > > Holy knob > which rests in the door > pray for us spinners > now and in the hour of our need Woohoo!! OK, who's with me in starting the choir? I'd like the tenors and sopranos over here, the basses and the altos in this corner, and the rest of you: Find a place in between! All sing the Psalms of the Knob!! Psalm 32; Verses 105 through 413... And, uh... we can cover full-part harmony here, right? Tehehe... Too much fun... All Hail the Great Knob! Chris From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Tue Nov 26 16:36:51 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 18:36:51 -0600 Subject: Thanksgiving References: <56C68DCC-0199-11D7-9557-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <3DE413A3.4000504@attbi.com> Chris said: >What?? How can anyone NOT like New England cooking? :-) Gosh, you got me hangin'. This guy, if it's not full of Tabasco sauce, he's like a cat with dry food. Mia From mam at theworld.com Tue Nov 26 16:40:13 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:40:13 -0500 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126141008.02583540@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Steven Brust wrote: #Man's religious beliefs have changed over the millennia. In my opinion, an #examination of these changes would lead to the conclusion that the gods #have been shrinking. Those areas where the supernatural is required for #understanding have gotten smaller and smaller. The idea that they might #vanish entirely in the not-to-distant future doesn't seem farfetched to me. Let's not make the mistake of judging universally by the sample most familiar to us. I don't think the overall level of religious belief in the world is anywhere near as low as the level among my friends and acquaintances. And social trends have a way of not running to completion, but finding a new equilibrium and then swinging the other way, or ANother way. -- Mark A. Mandel From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Nov 26 16:42:18 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:42:18 -0500 Subject: Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: <3DE413A3.4000504@attbi.com> Message-ID: <1537F4F8-01A1-11D7-8222-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Tuesday, November 26, 2002, at 07:36 PM, Mia McDavid wrote: > Chris said: > > >What?? How can anyone NOT like New England cooking? :-) > > Gosh, you got me hangin'. This guy, if it's not full of Tabasco > sauce, he's like a cat with dry food. > > Mia > Ewwwwwwwwwww Thats one thing in life I had, besides Liver and that's Tabasco sauce. ---- "I've always wanted to be somebody, but I see now I should have been more specific."---Lily Tomlin From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Tue Nov 26 16:43:09 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 18:43:09 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: Message-ID: <3DE4151D.90906@attbi.com> HT wrote: many funny things. ROFLMAO!!! Then, of course, there is the prayer from Creatures of Light and Darkness, which goes, if my memory serves me correctly: Our Father (if indeed thou art our father), Who art in Heaven (if indeed Heaven is the place in which thou doest reside) Hallowed be thy name (If indeed thou hast any wish or need to have it so hallowed) . . . Mia From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Nov 26 16:44:33 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:44:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thanksgiving Message-ID: <200211270044.gAR0iSu12812@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Chris said: > > >What?? How can anyone NOT like New England cooking? :-) > > Gosh, you got me hangin'. This guy, if it's not full of Tabasco sauce, > he's like a cat with dry food. Uh... I didn't say that, someone else did... And hey, I know at least one cat that will eat Cheeze-Its!!! Now that's some pretty dry food!! Heh. Chris From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Tue Nov 26 16:46:01 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 18:46:01 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <15843.46891.246035.618358@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Chris Olson - SunPS writes on 26 November 2002 > at 09:50:08 -0800 > > I get cranky when far-future societies have > anything recognizable as > > religion, personally. Makes no sense > it would last that long. > > > Now, as a die-hard skeptic and militant agnostic, I'd > > *like* to agree with you, but... > > > > Why do you think we, as a species, would have no religion in the > > far-future? Up to now, it seems to be going strong, and we've > > been around and evolving (well, SOME of us have been evolving:) > > for what, twenty thousand years, give or take? (I'm not sure > exactly > how long homo sapiens have been conducting religious > practices...:) > > It's going strong *here*, and in a lot of third-world places, but it's > remarkably dead throughout the rest of the developed world. We're > kind of an outlier. > > > But I'm curious as to why you think it would be gone... > > Partly optimism, partly that it is so clearly counter-productive. ooops.... I dare say that I've seen the positive affect that can happen when someone who practices their faith does so, even if the very act is neanderthalic to you, anything that enriches the life of humanity to me doesn't seem clearly counter-productive. What is counter-productive is arguing about it, there is always going to be someone out there that believes the exact opposite of you and to them on a fundamental or 'spiritual' level if you prefer. Fundamentals don't budge otherwise they wouldn't be fundamental to those people. I'm faithless so to speak, but I have witnessed the power of what faith can do by watching others. It has been my personal opinion for quite a while there is no greater human force than belief, after all we don't act based on things we don't believe to be true. Near as I can tell mostly every religion has pushed some pretty key concepts in human interaction -- of which Bill and Ted can best sum up "Be excellent to each other." What I think is actually counter-productive is idiots believing they need to 'convert someone' or 'kill in the name of god', or pretty much anything else in the name of god (the idea of their faith or whatever), after all if god wants something done I'm sure It'd prefer to do it itself but I could be wrong about that. I'd like to believe that is what most atheists are missing because it's what I felt I was missing for so long when trying to decide if I was one. I've seen the argument that not believing in a god makes more 'sense' because you lack any proof for it's existence therefore the default is 'no god' have you thought that it is actually just as rational to believe exactly the opposite? That God exists unless I am given some good reason for his incapability to exist? How would you explain reality? Here's the big part Can you prove it?! Not a chance; and you know it. Being an atheist as far as I can tell means you've decided there is no such thing as god. Being 'x religion' that believes in god means you've decided you believe in god. That is all. The two of those factions arguing is in fact futile if their goal is to convince the other. They have along the way spurned plenty of ideas and good ones too, just like many other beliefs have for humanity. Mostly everyone you will see accepts that the universe exists and that if for no other reason than without it's existence we wouldn't be here right this second and that it's the biggest force we know of. that I owe any 'patronage' or what have you to the universe or the power that is behind it's existence, if that's a god so be it. Somehow I think that if it mattered if I personally believed in the existence of said god it'd be clearer than it is, as it stands I exist and I'm pleased about that, 1500 years ago maybe someone thought what I'm thinking and limited themselves to the concept of owing their patronage to the earth... what's the worst thing that we could do?(destroy each other? Ha we already do that! In the name of many things, things as mundane as money) and then what's the best thing? Cherish the earth? Cherish the universe?! How counter-productive is it ponder these things? The lack of religion in Sf/fantasy would to me make it to me Less believable. "Be excellent to each other." From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Nov 26 16:46:25 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:46:25 -0500 Subject: Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: <200211270044.gAR0iSu12812@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Tuesday, November 26, 2002, at 07:44 PM, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: >> Chris said: >> >>> What?? How can anyone NOT like New England cooking? :-) >> >> Gosh, you got me hangin'. This guy, if it's not full of Tabasco >> sauce, >> he's like a cat with dry food. > > Uh... I didn't say that, someone else did... > > And hey, I know at least one cat that will eat Cheeze-Its!!! > Now that's some pretty dry food!! > > Heh. > Chris One of our cats will eat Toaster Stroodles. Disturbing. --- "We cannot accomplish great things - just little ones, with great love." -Mother Teresa From mam at theworld.com Tue Nov 26 16:49:50 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:49:50 -0500 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F5953A@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Message-ID: [attribution lost] #>Atheism is a religeon of non-belief in god. So even atheists have a #>religeon. [H.T.] #>According to the book "Our Religions" and the damn instructor who taught the #>course that used that horrible book, both Buddhism and Taoism are #>"atheistic" religions (did I spell it correctly? heh.). #>Therefore, I suppose one can say, some Atheists have religion to the point #>they have a name for what they believe in. (Is this a contradiction? Not #>sure.) [Sean Penney] #Gah! Your prof was an "oxymoronic" knob. Before we get started in on name-calling in earnest, let's just check somewhere, like the American Heritage Dictionary, 4th edition, s.v. "religion": 1a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. (2 omitted, irrelevant) 3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. ==== I think the Buddha's teachings qualify him as a spiritual leader. Is there any disagreement on that? Hearing no dissent, the chair rules that Buddhism is a non-theistic religion, though not an atheistic one insofar as the nonexistence of any divine power is not a tenet of Buddhism. -- Mark A. Mandel From baralier at optusnet.com.au Tue Nov 26 16:50:07 2002 From: baralier at optusnet.com.au (Baralier) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:50:07 +1100 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth References: Message-ID: <00ec01c295af$32c40dc0$18a231d2@valadan> "Nytemuse" said... > On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, David Goldfarb wrote: > > Um, I'm sorry, but if we have to use spoiler space for classic works > > of literature that are a half-century old, then we have to use spoiler > > space for EVERYTHING; and in my humble opinion that is just not reasonable. > > (I'm envisioning putting in spoiler space before talking about how > > Jesus came back from the dead....) > > Do you really make THAT many references to events in literature? This is > the first time, in the months that I've been on the list, that I've seen a > citation of plot w/o space. Besides, I don't care so much about the > actual 20 lines of blank space as I do of just mentioning in ONE LINE at > the beginning of the post that there are possible spoilers for some book, > which doesn't seem too _unreasonable_ to me. > Not everyone is obviously as advanced in literature and history as you. We already mentioned the rape scene from Lord Foul's Bane, we've had detailed descriptions of the Christian elements in Narnia, and we're currently discussing plot points to FHYA. All without spoiler spaces. And since the details of how Frodo lost a finger weren't given I wouldn't have thought it needed a spoiler space anyway. Baralier -- Good planning and organisation are just crutches for people who can't handle stress and caffeine. http://members.optushome.com.au/velvetspyder Costumier & Reprobate From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Nov 26 16:54:41 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:54:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: <200211270054.gAR0sZu16647@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > I'd like to believe that is what most atheists are missing because it's what > I felt I was missing for so long when trying to decide if I was one. I've > seen the argument that not believing in a god makes more 'sense' because you > lack any proof for it's existence therefore the default is 'no god' have you > thought that it is actually just as rational to believe exactly the > opposite? That God exists unless I am given some good reason for his > incapability to exist? How would you explain reality? Here's the big part > Can you prove it?! That is (kinda like this whole thread:) a circular argument. My position states that, being as how Man created God (in a sense, and in my opinion), I am inclined to feel that his (Ha!:) incapability to exist is just as valid as his capability to exist. It's a flip of the coin. Neither argument can be proven, and so we're left with a philosophical discussion (which is how I take all of these threads and discussions. They're fun!!:) One person feels that, without proof, god doesn't exist. Another feels that, without proof, god must exist. And, though it makes for good conversation and interesting reading, that's about all that can really be proven. Or I'm just starting to get tired and need to go home... Chris From kate at mail.browser.net Tue Nov 26 16:59:19 2002 From: kate at mail.browser.net (Kate Jones) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:59:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: King Tut parody Message-ID: <200211270059.gAR0xU930104@mail.browser.net> > Anyone remember an illustrated book that parodies the digging up of > Tut's grave, only this book details the exploration of a roadside > hotel? Its a long shot, but does anyone know the name, a fragment or > the author's name? That'd be Motel of the Mysteries, by David Macaulay. Kate -- Kate Jones | I turned my world upside-down kate at tulgey.browser.net | and that's how everything landed... From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Tue Nov 26 17:04:46 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:04:46 -0600 Subject: Thanksgiving References: <200211270025.gAR0PTu05633@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: >> Hey hey, the McDonald's clam chowder is used as landfill in these >> parts. I don't like new Orleans food but I don't have anything >> against it. Now Chris, get out of Sun and come to new England and >> you'll learn about food :-) > > I've tried to get out of Sun. But the darn chains > are just too damn strong!! > > So, it looks like we may have to have a Dragaera-List > Cook-Off sometime... > If the list gets bigger and bigger and bigger... heh well we'll just end up having 'Dragcon' No doubt it's be misinterpreted and we'll be intermingled with cross-dressers (*disclaimer*not that there is anything wrong with crossdressing, mind you) From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Nov 26 17:06:05 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:06:05 -0500 Subject: Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6764286C-01A4-11D7-8222-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Tuesday, November 26, 2002, at 08:04 PM, Gametech wrote: > Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: >>> Hey hey, the McDonald's clam chowder is used as landfill in these >>> parts. I don't like new Orleans food but I don't have anything >>> against it. Now Chris, get out of Sun and come to new England and >>> you'll learn about food :-) >> >> I've tried to get out of Sun. But the darn chains >> are just too damn strong!! >> >> So, it looks like we may have to have a Dragaera-List >> Cook-Off sometime... >> > If the list gets bigger and bigger and bigger... heh well we'll just > end up > having 'Dragcon' No doubt it's be misinterpreted and we'll be > intermingled > with cross-dressers (*disclaimer*not that there is anything wrong with > crossdressing, mind you) > Nice catch :-) let's call it Vladcon (hey, unintentional pun there!) ---- "Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself (I am large, I contain multitudes)"--Walt Whitman From loki at twwol.dyndns.org Tue Nov 26 17:07:49 2002 From: loki at twwol.dyndns.org (Loki) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:07:49 -0400 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11/26/02 6:59 PM, "H. T." wrote: >> Atheism is a religeon of non-belief in god. So even atheists have a >> religeon. > > According to the book "Our Religions" and the damn instructor who taught the > course that used that horrible book, both Buddhism and Taoism are > "atheistic" religions (did I spell it correctly? heh.). It depends on which variety of Buddhism. Buddhists on the whole don't worship gods, but some believe they exist. -- In the future the planet earth is imperiled because humanity has evolved into a bunch of flat, tepid and utterly predictable characters. On the plus side, we've also evolved perfectly square jaws, and in the military women not only fight along side the men, they also shower with them. --- Albatross on "Starship Troopers" From electrictwilight at hotmail.com Tue Nov 26 17:09:07 2002 From: electrictwilight at hotmail.com (H. T.) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 01:09:07 +0000 Subject: Thanksgiving Message-ID: > > So, it looks like we may have to have a Dragaera-List > > Cook-Off sometime... > > >If the list gets bigger and bigger and bigger... heh well we'll just >end >up >having 'Dragcon' No doubt it's be misinterpreted and we'll be intermingled >with cross-dressers (*disclaimer*not that there is anything wrong with >crossdressing, mind you) Oh! Oh! I'll bring the pop-tarts and make some walnut-poppy-seed bread and I am sure I can find at least two cross-dressers somewhere, there not hard to find in these parts, I'll just drive on up to Century City. :P _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Nov 26 17:13:33 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:13:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thanksgiving Message-ID: <200211270113.gAR1DSu20903@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Oh! Oh! I'll bring the pop-tarts and make some walnut-poppy-seed bread and I > am sure I can find at least two cross-dressers somewhere, there not hard to > find in these parts, I'll just drive on up to Century City. Oh, is it cross-dressers we'd like? Well, I'll swing by San Fran and grab a few. And for kicks, I'll grab my friend Alexis, a self-described: Transsexual Vegan Lesbian Epidemiologist Punk! She's fun no matter where she is!! The walnut poppy-seed bread sounds pretty good... Mmm.... Glad I'm not on a diet reading this list!! Chris From eriktdahl at yahoo.com Tue Nov 26 17:15:37 2002 From: eriktdahl at yahoo.com (Erik Dahl) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:15:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thanksgiving Message-ID: <20021127011537.72503.qmail@web13706.mail.yahoo.com> Mia McDavid (>) wrote: > What are everyone's Thanksgiving favorites??? This year I'm brining the turkey again, because osmosis is a wonderful thing. If you've never soaked the bird in such a solution, I heartily recommend it. It keeps it moist throughout the long cooking time and adds incredible flavor. We're also having mashed Yukon Gold potatoes, gravy, crouton dressing, green beans, sweet potatoes, cranberry sauce, and pumpkin cheesecake. Nothing very different except for dessert. I'll be quite thankful if we can eat all of it over the four days alloted to us. :) From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Tue Nov 26 17:21:55 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:21:55 -0600 Subject: Thanksgiving References: <6764286C-01A4-11D7-8222-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: Chris Turkel wrote: > On Tuesday, November 26, 2002, at 08:04 PM, Gametech wrote: > >> Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: >>>> Hey hey, the McDonald's clam chowder is used as landfill in these >>>> parts. I don't like new Orleans food but I don't have anything >>>> against it. Now Chris, get out of Sun and come to new England and >>>> you'll learn about food :-) >>> >>> I've tried to get out of Sun. But the darn chains >>> are just too damn strong!! >>> >>> So, it looks like we may have to have a Dragaera-List >>> Cook-Off sometime... >>> >> If the list gets bigger and bigger and bigger... heh well we'll just >> end up >> having 'Dragcon' No doubt it's be misinterpreted and we'll be >> intermingled >> with cross-dressers (*disclaimer*not that there is anything wrong >> with crossdressing, mind you) >> > Nice catch :-) let's call it Vladcon (hey, unintentional pun there!) > ---- > "Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself (I am large, I > contain multitudes)"--Walt Whitman I like it Vladcon is good Okay I'll start collecting memberships: $145.00 pre-reg before some unamed date $170.00 some later pre-reg before some unamed date $1,200.00 at the door (Screw with my maticulate planning membership fee) Guest of honor: Vladimir Taltos (when he doesn't show up you can't sue because we advertised in the name, You got what you paid for) From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Tue Nov 26 17:24:00 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:24:00 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth References: <00ec01c295af$32c40dc0$18a231d2@valadan> Message-ID: Baralier wrote: > "Nytemuse" said... >> On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, David Goldfarb wrote: >>> Um, I'm sorry, but if we have to use spoiler space for classic works >>> of literature that are a half-century old, then we have to use >>> spoiler space for EVERYTHING; and in my humble opinion that is just >>> not reasonable. (I'm envisioning putting in spoiler space before >>> talking about how Jesus came back from the dead....) >> >> Do you really make THAT many references to events in literature? >> This is the first time, in the months that I've been on the list, >> that I've seen a citation of plot w/o space. Besides, I don't care >> so much about the actual 20 lines of blank space as I do of just >> mentioning in ONE LINE at the beginning of the post that there are >> possible spoilers for some book, which doesn't seem too >> _unreasonable_ to me. Not everyone is obviously as advanced in >> literature and history as you. > > We already mentioned the rape scene from Lord Foul's Bane, we've had > detailed descriptions of the Christian elements in Narnia, and we're > currently discussing plot points to FHYA. > > All without spoiler spaces. > > And since the details of how Frodo lost a finger weren't given I > wouldn't have thought it needed a spoiler space anyway. > > Baralier Oh for crying out loud I had missed that it was frodo who lost a finger (and I too am reading the trilogy for the first time about half way in thus far) as I quickly skimmed that e-mail... Jeepers... but is doesn't help me because I can't 'un-read' it We could all use spoiler space for anything that has to do with anything else but then we'd get nowhere Really though I think that if you are trying to keep a secret from yourself about something in a story or movie the best way to do that is stick you fingers in your ears and go nah-nah-nah while mumbling that you in fact don't want to hear about something or other otherwise at any given moment someone else may reveal that to you, even though it does infact suck to have happen you can consloe yourself what without thinking about it you are likely doing it to someone else and that there are in fact other stories, or for fun you can practice putting titles and key information together like so when you refer to star-wars you can instead say "Star Wars Darth Vader is Lukes Father" followed by whatever it is you want to say about star wars. I think my problem is I agree with both of you, It sucks either way what you do defines who you are though. From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Tue Nov 26 17:26:24 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:26:24 -0600 Subject: Thanksgiving References: <20021127011537.72503.qmail@web13706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Erik Dahl wrote: > Mia McDavid (>) wrote: > >> What are everyone's Thanksgiving favorites??? > > This year I'm brining the turkey again, because osmosis is a > wonderful thing. If you've never soaked the bird in such a solution, > I heartily recommend it. It keeps it moist throughout the long > cooking time and adds incredible flavor. We're also having mashed > Yukon Gold potatoes, gravy, crouton dressing, green beans, sweet > potatoes, cranberry sauce, and pumpkin cheesecake. Nothing very > different except for dessert. I'll be quite thankful if we can eat > all of it over the four days alloted to us. :) Okay that's just not fair, where was the spoiler space? Now I have to go find something to eat..... From rick at 404.978.org Tue Nov 26 17:28:04 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:28:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: <20021127011537.72503.qmail@web13706.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20021127011537.72503.qmail@web13706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1858.192.168.1.1.1038360484.squirrel@404.978.org> Erik Dahl said: > Mia McDavid (>) wrote: > >> What are everyone's Thanksgiving favorites??? > > This year I'm brining the turkey again, because osmosis is a wonderful > thing. If you've never soaked the bird in such a solution, I heartily > recommend it. It keeps it moist throughout the long cooking time and > adds incredible flavor. We're also having mashed Yukon Gold potatoes, > gravy, crouton dressing, green beans, sweet potatoes, cranberry sauce, > and pumpkin cheesecake. Nothing very different except for dessert. I'll > be quite thankful if we can eat all of it over the four days alloted to > us. :) Alton Brown is the man, and his Good Eats show on Food Network is basically Mr. Wizard Goes to the Kitchen. Always brine your bird. :) -Rick From loki at twwol.dyndns.org Tue Nov 26 17:34:35 2002 From: loki at twwol.dyndns.org (Loki) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:34:35 -0400 Subject: Domino's Lute In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126145741.0271ed90@localhost> Message-ID: On 11/26/02 7:03 PM, "Steven Brust" wrote: > At 02:45 PM 11/26/2002 -0500, Randi128 at aol.com wrote: >> Dennis wrote: Atheism is not a religion, but there are people who may make it >> into one. >> >> Atheists believe there is no God. Religion is a belief. By answering the >> question 'Do you believe in God' you are professing your religeous beliefs. >> The only way to be non-religeous is to not even acknowledge the question. > > It is certainly possible to define religion that way. It even makes a > certain amount of sense. But then we're left with needing a word that > means, belief in and reverence for a superhuman power. Right now we have a > perfectly good word for that: religion. If you want religion to mean > something else, please supply me with a word that means what we now mean by > religion, so we can talk about it. Buddhism's a religion. However, there's no belief in or reverence for any superhuman powers in it. Thus, I think your definition is somewhat broken. ;) Perhaps this: A systematic set of spiritual beliefs? Of course, that still rules out atheism, as atheism is not a set of beliefs, but a single supposition. -- We all remember. It's our curse. It is our freedom. --- an old madwoman in a cage from "Black Wine" by Candas Jane Dorsey From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Tue Nov 26 17:53:26 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:53:26 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: Message-ID: Dennis Higbee wrote: > On Tue, 26 Nov 2002 Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > >> Dennis wrote: Atheism is not a religion, but there are people who >> may make it into one. >> >> Atheists believe there is no God. Religion is a belief. By answering >> the question 'Do you believe in God' you are professing your >> religeous beliefs. The only way to be non-religeous is to not even >> acknowledge the question. > > Your definition seems overly inclusive to me. For instance, I believe > I'll be stuck in rush hour traffic this evening. Does that mean I've > just started the Holy Reverend Church of Sitting on My Ass and > Screaming "Fucking Traffic" Every Two Minutes While Honking My Horn? Hey I've been part of that religion well actually a different faction; we honk every 3 minutes and scream 'stupid Minnesotan drivers' every 5 We like to call it 'stupid people who complain about stupid shit' What's great is we are completely unbaised (unless you are from another state and then we change the chant based on that, or perhaps if we are in another state ourselves) we practice this ritual upon eachother unrelentingly. From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Tue Nov 26 17:56:50 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:56:50 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: <200211262006.gAQK67u21617@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: >> Chris Olson - SunPS writes: >> (and I won't get into my ex's view of "Every thought, feeling, >> idea, concept, sense, etc., is all a product of chemical reactions >> in our brain, and it's perfectly possible that no one is in the >> universe except me"... It's a little too much...:) >> >> Solipsism is for chumps. > > Sure. Now try arguing that to an extremely intelligent and > reasonable obsessive-compulsive.... Heh. > > Chris isn't 'reasonable obsessive-compulsive' an oxy-moron? no jabs here, I'm clinicaly light obsessive-compulsive. From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Tue Nov 26 18:13:57 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:13:57 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: <000c01c295ba$9ee86040$883e5418@dontbenosy> Message-ID: Sean wrote: > You're from Minnesota? I'm from Vancouver. Great game last night - > we were hanging on by our fingernails the last 5 minutes. > > > Sean > > "I support Free Trade - Minnesota for Quebec, straight across." Hot damn then my whole family would have good health care! From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Nov 26 18:26:39 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 26 Nov 2002 20:26:39 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mark A Mandel writes: > Before we get started in on name-calling in earnest, let's just check > somewhere, like the American Heritage Dictionary, 4th edition, s.v. > "religion": > > 1a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded > as creator and governor of the universe. > b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and > worship. > > (2 omitted, irrelevant) > > 3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a > spiritual leader. > > ==== > > I think the Buddha's teachings qualify him as a spiritual leader. Is > there any disagreement on that? > > Hearing no dissent, the chair rules that Buddhism is a non-theistic > religion, though not an atheistic one insofar as the nonexistence of any > divine power is not a tenet of Buddhism. Sounds right to me. What's the date of that dictionary? I wouldn't wonder if older ones might not have anything equivalent to #3. The OED is...complicated on the subject. But really only two definitions seems to bear on the particular meaning we're discussing, which are 4. a. A particular system of faith and worship. and 5. a. Recognition on the part of man of some higher unseen power as having control of his destiny, and as being entitled to obedience, reverence, and worship; the general mental and moral attitude resulting from this belief, with reference to its effect upon the individual or the community; personal or general acceptance of this feeling as a standard of spiritual and practical life. Interestingly, 4a has citations back to 1300, whereas 5a kicks in in 1535. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From tsarren at alyra.org Tue Nov 26 18:31:56 2002 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Kat) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:31:56 -0600 Subject: A different Track In-Reply-To: References: <20021126194626.GA10348@galadriel.alyra.org> Message-ID: <20021127023156.GG1625@galadriel.alyra.org> On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 05:01:21PM -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > Interesting in connection to work music. > > I've seen a tendency for musicians to have broader tastes in music > than their listeners, at least. I see the same tendancy. To give an example, a pop song that is popular and also has high musical value can be enjoyed by musicians and non-musicians alike. Anything ethnic (especially with ethnic instrumentation) that has musical value isn't going to be nearly as appreciated by your average layperson as it is by a musician. And for musicians to have less > critical tastes in stereo equipment than non-musicians (I *think* I've > corrected for the traditional poverty of musicians here, but I could > be wrong). Musicians in general, what with their trained ears, are much more likely to hear - and appreciate - the differences between a shelftop boom box, an overmarketed set of Bose speakers (Bose Blows, No Lows... there's a reason that the high-end audio stores don't carry Bose), and a nice two-channel in its own room that someone has sunk a couple k into. Musicians who make their living with their music are less likely to be capable of affording the hi-fi system, true, but that doesn't mean their tastes are any less critical than non-musicians or musicians who make their living elsewhere. Speaking personally, if I was in a bad monetary situation, I'd stoop to eating ramen in order to avoid selling my two-channel if I had to. Having a system that can reproduce music with sufficient (fillintheblank with words like clarity, accuracy, and other subjective audiophile terms) is extraordinarily important to me. I am a musician but not one by profession. > It makes sense that a muscian might be more likely to be fully engaged > by the music, hence find it clashes with other things. *shrug* I dunno...(I'm taking your definition of 'engaged' as a direct measurement of devotion of conscious processing power) I can get so engaged (in the Zone) in it that it doesn't matter what's going on around me, it isn't going to clash, because I'm barely aware of it (that's one of those rare times when I am willing to be unaware of my environment). OTOH, I appreciate a 'clean' listening environment as much as anyone, when it's available. I suppose I'm much more likely to Zone when I'm playing rather than just listening. If you're saying that music catches our attention easier, well, yes, it can... if I'm reading and listening to something new and musically interesting at the same time, I have to make a conscious effort to block out the music - otherwise I'm going to actively listen and cut my reading speed by half to do so; I can't just passively listen to it because my brain keeps saying "New stuff here! Devote more power to process it!" If it's something I've heard before, it isn't nearly as hard to listen passively. To make a generic statement - the better you are at something, the easier it is to focus on that thing and block out external stuff. > > If anyone else has extra-input needs, I'd be interested in hearing them. > > I survived some audio-cassette courses at one point by playing them at > double-speed on an old cassette recorder (thus playing them at twice > the original frequency, too). The distortion of the speech added > enough cognitive work that I didn't get bored having to go through > them at only *double* the usual data rate. Hehe. I wish I could've done that with some of my college prof's. There were a rare few that I would've liked to slow down... From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Nov 26 18:33:12 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 26 Nov 2002 20:33:12 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <20021126233709.5103926E31@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20021126233709.5103926E31@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) writes: > Erik Dahl writes: > I find this recent trend towards defining atheism as a religion of > non-belief very disconcerting. Instead of maintaining that atheism > is "belief in no god," or "belief there is no god," can't we say > instead that it is "no belief in god?" For me, at any rate, it is > more about not believing in something than believing in something > opposed to something else. > I'm aiming for accuracy of the term; I don't wish to offend anyone. > > That's traditionally called agnosticism. Since I've got the OED up, here's what they have to say about that: agnostic: A. n. One who holds that the existence of anything beyond and behind material phenomena is unknown and (so far as can be judged) unknowable, and especially that a First Cause and an unseen world are subjects of which we know nothing. [Suggested by Prof. Huxley at a party held previous to the formation of the now defunct Metaphysical Society, at Mr. James Knowles's house on Clapham Common, one evening in 1869, in my hearing. He took it from St. Paul's mention of the alter to 'the Unknown God.' R.H Hutton in letter 13 Mar. 1881.] Atheist is much simpler: 1. One who denies or disbelieves the existence of a God. And dates to at least 1568. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Nov 26 18:38:18 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 26 Nov 2002 20:38:18 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <3DE4151D.90906@attbi.com> References: <3DE4151D.90906@attbi.com> Message-ID: Mia McDavid writes: > HT wrote: many funny things. > > ROFLMAO!!! > > Then, of course, there is the prayer from Creatures of Light and > Darkness, which goes, if my memory serves me correctly: > > Our Father (if indeed thou art our father), > Who art in Heaven (if indeed Heaven is the place in which thou doest > reside) > Hallowed be thy name (If indeed thou hast any wish or need to have it > so hallowed) . . . It doesn't seem to be on the web! How remarkable. (There is, however, the "possibly proper death litany" from the same source). I'm sure that last bit is "if name thous hast, and any desire to see it hallowed", though. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Nov 26 18:39:03 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 26 Nov 2002 20:39:03 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mark A Mandel writes: > On 26 Nov 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > #I get cranky when far-future societies have anything recognizable as > #religion, personally. Makes no sense it would last that long. > > Oh, heck, why not say the same about sexism or bigotry? Do you get > cranky about societies without those? Um, with, actually, just to be consistent. > Unless you foresee basic changes in human nature, I tend to agree with > another poster that there is a very strong tendency in humans, in > general, to look for patterns and powers beyond what is accessible to > perception and reason. And if you change human nature your characters > and their society will be harder for a reader to identify with or feel > emotionally invested in. Lacking much of that drive myself, I find it hard to identify with characters driven by it. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Nov 26 18:43:01 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 26 Nov 2002 20:43:01 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: <00ec01c295af$32c40dc0$18a231d2@valadan> References: <00ec01c295af$32c40dc0$18a231d2@valadan> Message-ID: "Baralier" writes: > We already mentioned the rape scene from Lord Foul's Bane, we've had > detailed descriptions of the Christian elements in Narnia, and we're > currently discussing plot points to FHYA. > > All without spoiler spaces. > > And since the details of how Frodo lost a finger weren't given I > wouldn't have thought it needed a spoiler space anyway. You mean how he accidently sliced it off with Sting while chopping onions in their camp one evening? -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From tsarren at alyra.org Tue Nov 26 18:44:18 2002 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Kat) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:44:18 -0600 Subject: A different Track In-Reply-To: References: <20021126194626.GA10348@galadriel.alyra.org> Message-ID: <20021127024418.GH1625@galadriel.alyra.org> On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 12:56:39PM -0800, Nytemuse wrote: > And > likewise, I can't explain to some non-musical people what kinds of > qualities I look for in some white noise music. Yeah... I have yet to find any way to predict what kinds of white noise / background / working music that a person of a given musical background will like. > > Are you actually processing the TV/music at the same time you're doing work? > > or is it white noise in this case? > > Depends on the TV show, music, and work being done. When I'm just doing > some search & replace work or fixing bad code where I already know what > the problem is, then I generally process both. Meaning, I can remember > the story and dialogue or tune and also remember what I changed and what I > did. If I'm writing original content or creating new pages with new > codes/scripts, it's more white noise. *nods* That seems to be pretty consistent with my general set of observations. > > Do you listen to music with clear and obvious lyrics, or no? If you don't, > > that would seem to imply that verbalized language interferes somewhat with > > the part of your brain that's processing the book. That is certainly the > > case with me; I can follow a conversation or process lyrics and read at the > > same time, but my reading speed drops by about 75% when I do. > > Sometimes. If it's a CD I'm REALLY familiar with or if the words are in > another language, I can read to it. But I generally prefer ones w/o > clear lyrics or w/o lyrics at all. :) So I guess I do have a little > trouble with language interfering, but under conditions. I'm sort of the same way, though I have this weird thing were I can filter music such that I'm not linguistically processing the lyrics, only musically processing the voice, and thus I can successfully use it as background. TV, otoh, because it is spoken instead of sung, will give me fits. I can barely read in a room with a TV on if it's at normal listening volumes. I don't know why this is different for me than a group of people conversing in my presence. I just can't block the damned thing out unless it's turned down. > > Query, does chatting include in-person, > > online, phone, or some combination thereof? > > Um, all of the above? eMail, AIM (and like systems), phone, in-person, > eavesdropping... One of the effects of modern technology that I appreciate the most are the multiple avenues of communication that can be used at the same time. I especially like IM, in which the speed (of typing) is just right so that one can carry on two simultaneous threads of conversation with the same person. Anon, Kat From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Nov 26 18:48:39 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 26 Nov 2002 20:48:39 -0600 Subject: Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: <20021127011537.72503.qmail@web13706.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20021127011537.72503.qmail@web13706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Erik Dahl writes: > Mia McDavid (>) wrote: > > > What are everyone's Thanksgiving favorites??? > > This year I'm brining the turkey again, because osmosis is a wonderful thing. > If you've never soaked the bird in such a solution, I heartily recommend it. It > keeps it moist throughout the long cooking time and adds incredible flavor. Is this the politically correct alternative to injecting it with broth? > We're also having mashed Yukon Gold potatoes, gravy, crouton dressing, green > beans, sweet potatoes, cranberry sauce, and pumpkin cheesecake. Nothing very > different except for dessert. I'll be quite thankful if we can eat all of it > over the four days alloted to us. :) Pumpkin pie and mince pie for dessert. Cranberry sauce, check; I'm fairly interested in all sorts of different cranberry sauces and relishes. Gravy, not for me. Potatoes, not for me (in a meal with stuffing in it). Sweet potatoes, traditional, but not important to me. And a good dry white wine. That's crucial. Or two, or three. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Nov 26 18:51:19 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:51:19 -0500 Subject: Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1B2F1861-01B3-11D7-BEE5-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Tuesday, November 26, 2002, at 09:48 PM, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Erik Dahl writes: > >> Mia McDavid (>) wrote: >> >>> What are everyone's Thanksgiving favorites??? >> >> This year I'm brining the turkey again, because osmosis is a >> wonderful thing. >> If you've never soaked the bird in such a solution, I heartily >> recommend it. It >> keeps it moist throughout the long cooking time and adds incredible >> flavor. > > Is this the politically correct alternative to injecting it with > broth? > >> We're also having mashed Yukon Gold potatoes, gravy, crouton >> dressing, green >> beans, sweet potatoes, cranberry sauce, and pumpkin cheesecake. >> Nothing very >> different except for dessert. I'll be quite thankful if we can eat >> all of it >> over the four days alloted to us. :) > > Pumpkin pie and mince pie for dessert. Cranberry sauce, check; I'm > fairly interested in all sorts of different cranberry sauces and > relishes. Gravy, not for me. Potatoes, not for me (in a meal with > stuffing in it). Sweet potatoes, traditional, but not important to > me. > > And a good dry white wine. That's crucial. Or two, or three. Make sure you use Ocean Spray brand cranberries. Its owned by the cranberry farmers themselves, all grown here in Massachusetts. I grew up in cranberry growing land. ---- "We cannot accomplish great things - just little ones, with great love." -Mother Teresa From tsarren at alyra.org Tue Nov 26 18:53:54 2002 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Kat) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:53:54 -0600 Subject: A different Track In-Reply-To: <3DE3D8D0.5090007@attbi.com> References: <20021126194626.GA10348@galadriel.alyra.org> <3DE3D8D0.5090007@attbi.com> Message-ID: <20021127025354.GI1625@galadriel.alyra.org> On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 02:25:52PM -0600, Mia McDavid wrote: > Like (I suspect) every other member of this list, I read fluently. I > can't, in fact *not read*. I can't look at a word without knowing what > it says. Ever glanced at a sign that has a large collection of stuff on it, and had your brain pick out the one thing of interest to you without you actually reading any of the sign first? > I can look at a musical staff and have *no idea* what I'm supposed to be > hearing. I can, with a piano and *a lot* of effort, painfully sound out > the notes, but that's not reading. For all practical purposes, I learn > music the way a blind woman does, and I'm really sad about that. I keep > working, but all that good early-childhood learning stuff stopped > happening for me *long* time ago. Yeah, I know how you feel. I became quite proficient at snare and timpani, such that I could read that kind of music as easily as language. I learned keyboard music in exactly the manner you describe - sound out the notes (the rythm was effortless, given the rest of my percussion background). Do it again and again until I'd memorized it. Add in the musical stuff as I go along. Let me know if you ever do become proficient... it might give me some hope and a reason to buy a marimba at some point in the future. Anon, Kat From loki at twwol.dyndns.org Tue Nov 26 18:56:20 2002 From: loki at twwol.dyndns.org (Loki) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 22:56:20 -0400 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11/26/02 10:43 PM, "David Dyer-Bennet" wrote: > "Baralier" writes: > >> We already mentioned the rape scene from Lord Foul's Bane, we've had >> detailed descriptions of the Christian elements in Narnia, and we're >> currently discussing plot points to FHYA. >> >> All without spoiler spaces. >> >> And since the details of how Frodo lost a finger weren't given I >> wouldn't have thought it needed a spoiler space anyway. > > You mean how he accidently sliced it off with Sting while chopping > onions in their camp one evening? What an obvious fake. Everybody knows hobbits prefer mushrooms. :) -- Winter sports, out of necessity, have come out of cold places. One place where many came from is Scandinavia, which is also home to death metal. As many of us know, death metal kids are an odd bunch, who seem to enjoy rather weird things, like burning down churches and whatnot. Is it really a coincidence that suicidal sports and death metal came from the same area? --- Satan Claus From rick at 404.978.org Tue Nov 26 19:00:38 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 22:00:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Pattern matching In-Reply-To: <20021127025354.GI1625@galadriel.alyra.org> References: <20021126194626.GA10348@galadriel.alyra.org> <3DE3D8D0.5090007@attbi.com> <20021127025354.GI1625@galadriel.alyra.org> Message-ID: <2458.192.168.1.1.1038366038.squirrel@404.978.org> Kat said: > On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 02:25:52PM -0600, Mia McDavid wrote: >> Like (I suspect) every other member of this list, I read fluently. I >> can't, in fact *not read*. I can't look at a word without knowing >> what it says. > > Ever glanced at a sign that has a large collection of stuff on it, and > had your brain pick out the one thing of interest to you without you > actually reading any of the sign first? Definitely. Other good examples: Skimming a manual, putting together a puzzle. The human brain (some more than others) is an EXCELLENT machine for pattern-matching. -Rick From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Nov 26 19:11:36 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 26 Nov 2002 21:11:36 -0600 Subject: A different Track In-Reply-To: <20021127023156.GG1625@galadriel.alyra.org> References: <20021126194626.GA10348@galadriel.alyra.org> <20021127023156.GG1625@galadriel.alyra.org> Message-ID: Kat writes: > On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 05:01:21PM -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > > > Interesting in connection to work music. > > > > I've seen a tendency for musicians to have broader tastes in music > > than their listeners, at least. > > I see the same tendancy. To give an example, a pop song that is popular and > also has high musical value can be enjoyed by musicians and non-musicians > alike. Anything ethnic (especially with ethnic instrumentation) that has > musical value isn't going to be nearly as appreciated by your average > layperson as it is by a musician. > > And for musicians to have less > > critical tastes in stereo equipment than non-musicians (I *think* I've > > corrected for the traditional poverty of musicians here, but I could > > be wrong). > > Musicians in general, what with their trained ears, are much more likely to > hear - and appreciate - the differences between a shelftop boom box, an > overmarketed set of Bose speakers (Bose Blows, No Lows... there's a reason > that the high-end audio stores don't carry Bose), and a nice two-channel in > its own room that someone has sunk a couple k into. Musicians who make > their living with their music are less likely to be capable of affording the > hi-fi system, true, but that doesn't mean their tastes are any less critical > than non-musicians or musicians who make their living elsewhere. What I saw was in college, where the serious musicians were on the average in the same financial situation as the rest of us. They had considerably less invested in their stereos, and didn't mind, and didn't particularly think the "better" ones sounded better. My theory is that their ears are good enough that even with the *good* stereos, they're hearing the artifacts anyway, so the difference doesn't much matter to them. I never had a chance to test them on *really good* equipment, which none of us had in college. It might be good enough to get past that, and thus produce a different result. > Speaking personally, if I was in a bad monetary situation, I'd stoop to > eating ramen in order to avoid selling my two-channel if I had to. Having a > system that can reproduce music with sufficient (fillintheblank with words > like clarity, accuracy, and other subjective audiophile terms) is > extraordinarily important to me. I am a musician but not one by profession. Selling used equipment is hopeless for money recovery anyway. So definitely hold onto it :-) > > It makes sense that a muscian might be more likely to be fully engaged > > by the music, hence find it clashes with other things. > > *shrug* I dunno...(I'm taking your definition of 'engaged' as a direct > measurement of devotion of conscious processing power) I can get so engaged > (in the Zone) in it that it doesn't matter what's going on around me, it > isn't going to clash, because I'm barely aware of it (that's one of those > rare times when I am willing to be unaware of my environment). OTOH, I > appreciate a 'clean' listening environment as much as anyone, when it's > available. I suppose I'm much more likely to Zone when I'm playing rather > than just listening. > > If you're saying that music catches our attention easier, well, yes, it > can... if I'm reading and listening to something new and musically > interesting at the same time, I have to make a conscious effort to block out > the music - otherwise I'm going to actively listen and cut my reading speed > by half to do so; I can't just passively listen to it because my brain keeps > saying "New stuff here! Devote more power to process it!" If it's something > I've heard before, it isn't nearly as hard to listen passively. > > To make a generic statement - the better you are at something, the easier it > is to focus on that thing and block out external stuff. Attractive theory, anyway. > > > If anyone else has extra-input needs, I'd be interested in hearing them. > > > > I survived some audio-cassette courses at one point by playing them at > > double-speed on an old cassette recorder (thus playing them at twice > > the original frequency, too). The distortion of the speech added > > enough cognitive work that I didn't get bored having to go through > > them at only *double* the usual data rate. > > Hehe. I wish I could've done that with some of my college prof's. There were > a rare few that I would've liked to slow down... That didn't come up as often, but I was at a school appropriate for my level, whereas the tape courses were for a more general audience. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Nov 26 19:13:03 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 26 Nov 2002 21:13:03 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Loki writes: > On 11/26/02 10:43 PM, "David Dyer-Bennet" wrote: > > > "Baralier" writes: > > > >> We already mentioned the rape scene from Lord Foul's Bane, we've had > >> detailed descriptions of the Christian elements in Narnia, and we're > >> currently discussing plot points to FHYA. > >> > >> All without spoiler spaces. > >> > >> And since the details of how Frodo lost a finger weren't given I > >> wouldn't have thought it needed a spoiler space anyway. > > > > You mean how he accidently sliced it off with Sting while chopping > > onions in their camp one evening? > > What an obvious fake. Everybody knows hobbits prefer mushrooms. :) Sure, they *prefer* mushrooms, but this was while traveling in Morder. Would *you* eat the mushrooms there? -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Nov 26 19:14:40 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 26 Nov 2002 21:14:40 -0600 Subject: Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: <1B2F1861-01B3-11D7-BEE5-00039386187A@adelphia.net> References: <1B2F1861-01B3-11D7-BEE5-00039386187A@adelphia.net> Message-ID: Chris Turkel writes: > Make sure you use Ocean Spray brand cranberries. Its owned by the > cranberry farmers themselves, all grown here in Massachusetts. I grew > up in cranberry growing land. Particularly since the other brand of frozen concentrate, at least, is Welches. (Okay, not relevant to cranberry sauce. I use the frozen concentrate for making cranberry daiquiris.) -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca Tue Nov 26 19:15:20 2002 From: jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca (James and Mary Burbidge) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 22:15:20 -0500 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth Message-ID: <3DE438C8.5C6F00A8@sympatico.ca> Matthew Hunter wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 07:26:08PM -0600, David Rodemaker wrote: > > > Well, yeah. Except that for Lewis, the Christian mythos is absolutely > > > true about the universe. The fair question, as I see it, is: Did Lewis > > > expect the series to hit people this way, or could he reasonably have > > > expected it to? And if so, how did he feel about it? -- Not necessarily > > > questions we can answer. > > The same argument could be made about LOTR, it's certainly as Christian as > > Narnia is... > > Um, no. Narnia is very much a direct analogy, and the author > admits it. Tolkien in LOTR denies any allegory along those > lines, and it's a much weaker connection. > > I don't deny there are some parallels, but Narnia is several > large steps closer to Christianity than Middle-Earth. > Ummm ... I would be willing to make an extended argument that the _Ainulindale_ is at least as Christian as anything in the Narnia books. There's some later writing published in _Morgoth's Ring_ which goes even further (a dialogue between Finrod and a human wise-woman). -- James Burbidge jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca From jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca Tue Nov 26 19:16:31 2002 From: jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca (James and Mary Burbidge) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 22:16:31 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: Re: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth] Message-ID: <3DE4390F.76D86A0E@sympatico.ca> Matthew Hunter wrote: > > Ender's Game seems clean to me too. The later books are a little > more arguable, and certain of Card's work is very explicitly > religious. > > As for Narnia, no denying the allegory, but it's a good story > nonetheless. It's not a book that tries to convert you, it's > just told from an explicitly Christian viewpoint. > Well, there actually is denying the allegory. In the absence of Dorothy Heydt on this list, let me point out: the Narnia books are not allegory. Lewis was an _expert_ on allegory. His first serious book was about it. He wrote a true allegory (_Pilgrim's Regress_). The Narnia books do not have the defining characteristic of an allegory -- they do not carry through two or more layers of continuous story using one set of representations. They don't even have allegorical elements. They are set in a multiverse in which Christianity is true; Aslan does not allegorically stand for God the Son -- he _is_ God the Son, straight out, although the identity is not shoved in one's face. In addition, Lewis was very thoroughly influenced by _The Golden Bough_ when he was young; the item which most people see as allegorical -- the dying and rising god theme in TLTWATW -- is almost certainly one of the ones he would have pointed out was not by any means specifically Christian, but reflects Attis, Osiris, et al. as well. -- James Burbidge jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca From andrew at networkharmoni.com.au Tue Nov 26 19:23:53 2002 From: andrew at networkharmoni.com.au (Andrew Bailey) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:23:53 +0800 Subject: Pattern matching References: <20021126194626.GA10348@galadriel.alyra.org> <3DE3D8D0.5090007@attbi.com> <20021127025354.GI1625@galadriel.alyra.org> <2458.192.168.1.1.1038366038.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: <3DE43AC9.7080109@networkharmoni.com.au> Rick Castello wrote: > Kat said: > >>On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 02:25:52PM -0600, Mia McDavid wrote: >> >>>Like (I suspect) every other member of this list, I read fluently. I >>>can't, in fact *not read*. I can't look at a word without knowing >>>what it says. >> >>Ever glanced at a sign that has a large collection of stuff on it, and >>had your brain pick out the one thing of interest to you without you >>actually reading any of the sign first? > > > Definitely. > > Other good examples: Skimming a manual, putting together a puzzle. > > The human brain (some more than others) is an EXCELLENT machine > for pattern-matching. > > -Rick > Very very good at it, to the point it can generate false positives. Think "Face of Jesus in a tortilla" . Andrew. > From rone at ennui.org Tue Nov 26 19:40:32 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:40:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pattern matching In-Reply-To: <3DE43AC9.7080109@networkharmoni.com.au> from Andrew Bailey at "Nov 27, 2002 11:23:53 am" Message-ID: <20021127034032.4601426E30@boredom.ennui.org> Andrew Bailey writes: Rick Castello wrote: > The human brain (some more than others) is an EXCELLENT machine > for pattern-matching. Very very good at it, to the point it can generate false positives. Think "Face of Jesus in a tortilla" . That's not a false positive, unless you happen to think a tortilla that looks like Jesus is a miracle. rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue Nov 26 19:46:11 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:46:11 -0800 Subject: Wheel of Taltos (was Brandy) In-Reply-To: <149.2dbd07c.2b0ac551@aol.com> References: <149.2dbd07c.2b0ac551@aol.com> Message-ID: <20021127034611.GA1174@ofb.net> On Mon, Nov 18, 2002 at 05:36:01PM -0500, FelixEisen at aol.com wrote: > though, I am vastly pleased. WoT seems to me to be a particularly blatant > 'milk' series, not unlike Xanth. "Wheel of Overtime" From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue Nov 26 20:06:33 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:06:33 -0800 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021124001913.02643ee0@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021124001913.02643ee0@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: <20021127040633.GB1174@ofb.net> On Sun, Nov 24, 2002 at 12:25:50AM -0500, Jeremy Michel wrote: > 11 yr old don't really have that much of an attention span I let my ten Depends on the 11 year old! After all, many don't want to read, period. This one seems to. -xx- Damien X-) From spenn at shaw.ca Tue Nov 26 19:52:50 2002 From: spenn at shaw.ca (Sean) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:52:50 -0800 Subject: Domino's Lute References: Message-ID: <001b01c295c8$7547e900$883e5418@dontbenosy> For your amusement... >From the Frantics skit, "Worshippers R Us", off of the _Boot to the Head_ album. Please open your generic prayer books and pray along with me as you sit, stand, kneel, face Mecca or dance.... O large person or persons of whatever gender or branch of the animal kingdom, Who did something great and is now someplace we aren't, Please forgive us for whatever you deem bad, And help us to do whatever strikes you as good, Whether that be to work hard, eat no pork, or wage a holy war, Grant us whatever you tend to grant, Unless you don't interfere with earthly concerns, Watch over us, or save us from evil, or let us find out for ourselves, or damn us randomly, Amen, Praise Allah Have a nice day. From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue Nov 26 20:29:35 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:29:35 -0800 Subject: LOTR and Christianity (apologies) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20021127042935.GC1174@ofb.net> On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 04:38:05PM -0600, David Rodemaker wrote: > I will also say that I do not think that T. had the goal as L. in writing a > specifically NT/Christian allegory, merely that his writings are rich in > Christian mystic/mythic imagery. But also Norse/Germanic imagery. And "Christian imagery" should be careful to distinguish between actual Christ-related imagery, and stuff related to monotheism and angels which is shared with Judaism (maybe?) and Islam and owes a lot to general mystic interest in the Middle Ages. For example, there's a comic right now, "Lucifer", with much the same cosmology as Neil Gaiman's "Sandman". God, angels, heaven, hell. Christian, right? Only, there's no _Christ_. Not a hint. (At least not these days, I've heard of one in some Swamp Thing. But Gaiman implied Christ was just one of the Great Stories, and Carey doesn't touch it at all.) (Uh, whoops. Okay, Lucifer does mention the "triune godhead" at one point. But that's it.) And heaven and hell don't work the way most real-world Christians would expect. Actually that's true for other stuff, like _Good Omens_. A lot of stuff seems to use _Paradise Lost_ as its mythic background, while stopping before the Messiah entered the scene. -xx- Damien X-) From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Nov 26 20:13:41 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 22:13:41 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: <3DE438C8.5C6F00A8@sympatico.ca> References: <3DE438C8.5C6F00A8@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20021127041341.GF7051@infodancer.org> On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 10:15:20PM -0500, James and Mary Burbidge wrote: > Matthew Hunter wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 07:26:08PM -0600, David Rodemaker wrote: > > > > Well, yeah. Except that for Lewis, the Christian mythos is absolutely > > > > true about the universe. The fair question, as I see it, is: Did Lewis > > > > expect the series to hit people this way, or could he reasonably have > > > > expected it to? And if so, how did he feel about it? -- Not necessarily > > > > questions we can answer. > > > The same argument could be made about LOTR, it's certainly as Christian as > > > Narnia is... > > Um, no. Narnia is very much a direct analogy, and the author > > admits it. Tolkien in LOTR denies any allegory along those > > lines, and it's a much weaker connection. > > I don't deny there are some parallels, but Narnia is several > > large steps closer to Christianity than Middle-Earth. > Ummm ... I would be willing to make an extended argument that the > _Ainulindale_ is at least as Christian as anything in the Narnia books. > There's some later writing published in _Morgoth's Ring_ which goes even > further (a dialogue between Finrod and a human wise-woman). Neither of which, as I understand it, are part of LOTR. I have avoided reading anything other than The Hobbit and LOTR for a reason. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From frank at exit.com Tue Nov 26 20:35:43 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:35:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <200211261958.gAQJwOu20366@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <200211270435.gAR4ZhjO046297@realtime.exit.com> (Boy, what a free-for-all. This is the most traffic I've seen on this list so far. :-) Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > (and I won't get into my ex's view of "Every thought, feeling, > idea, concept, sense, etc., is all a product of chemical reactions > in our brain, and it's perfectly possible that no one is in the > universe except me"... It's a little too much...:) Oh, why not? Except for the bit of solipsism at the end, that statement appears to be true. When I was in college twenty years ago, neuroscience had already gotten a handle on a few things, and lately it seems that hardly a week goes by that some new neural mechanism isn't uncovered and explained. More and more, it appears that we truly _are_ these wet, mushy lumps inside our skulls. And, the more I learn about this kind of thing, the more I wonder whether we would, after all, be able to communicate effectively with an intelligent being from a different evolutionary background. It seems that huge areas of our basic modes of communication are based in our neurophysiology. Interesting times, these, definitely. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From frank at exit.com Tue Nov 26 20:37:17 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:37:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> Message-ID: <200211270437.gAR4bH5Q046318@realtime.exit.com> Mia McDavid wrote: > You've made me curious, though. What is *their* answer to "why, why, why?" "Because." :-) -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue Nov 26 20:48:24 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:48:24 -0800 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <17e.1287c57a.2b1544b5@aol.com> References: <17e.1287c57a.2b1544b5@aol.com> Message-ID: <20021127044824.GD1174@ofb.net> On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 04:42:13PM -0500, Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > I meant what I said. Atheists believe there is no god. Period. To say that > you no longer, or do not beleive in god does not make you an atheist it makes > you someone who has lost their faith. You still acknowledge Gods existance > you just no longer have faith. I must apologize if I used the two Bull pockey. I never _had_ faith. To me God is some weird concept that other people believe in, just like the Hindu gods or the ghosts and spirits of more shamanistic/animistic peoples. I've found arguing over precise definitions of 'atheist' and 'agnostic' to be useless; they mean different things to different atheists and agnostics, and the dictionaries, pace Steve writing _Dragon_, tend to kindly offer all the definitions in use, so you can't even run to them, unless you do so selectively. E.g. I use 'atheist' as Greek 'a-theist', not a theist. I'm not a theist, God isn't in my life, or on my radar. Others emphasie 'a-theism'. A friend of mine has indistinguishable beliefs from mine but prefers the term agnostic where I prefer atheist. We've since moseyed in the direction of 'godless', which has less baggage and seems clearer. Because we sure are godless. -xx- Damien X-) From frank at exit.com Tue Nov 26 20:49:52 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:49:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <17e.1287c57a.2b1544b5@aol.com> Message-ID: <200211270449.gAR4nqAp046407@realtime.exit.com> Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > I meant what I said. Atheists believe there is no god. Period. Thank _you_ for telling me what I believe. Hmph. Wotta maroon. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue Nov 26 20:59:08 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:59:08 -0800 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <200211262344.gAQNiwu29618@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200211262344.gAQNiwu29618@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <20021127045908.GE1174@ofb.net> On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 03:45:01PM -0800, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > I have to agree. Atheism does get quite a bit of flak. > The only reason I'm not one myself, is that it's still > taking a firm stand on something that I can't see as On the schoolbus in 7th or 8th grade religion came up. I thought of myself as atheist, but said I was agnostic. "What's that?" my gifted peers asked. "An agnostic is just an atheist who's chicken", or words to that effect, came >from a better-read peer. Since being a chicken was exactly why I'd just called myself agnostic, this left a scar of shame... > being proven, one way or the other. But that's just me. I mentioned my friend and I arguing over atheist/agnostic. I think part of the issue is different sense of 'belief'. My friend wants to emphasize the lack of proof, so goes for agnostic. I have a scientific sense of belief in general and don't feel a need to emphasize it for the case of religion. E.g. I don't believe there are penguins on a planet orbiting Alpha Centauri. Can I prove there aren't? No; the aliens I don't believe in either could have snagged some for zoo samples. But if you live like a scientist you don't worry about _proving_ your beliefs; you roll with the preponderance of evidence (as interpreted by theory, usually.) If you turn out to be wrong, well, la. So I don't believe there's a god. Can I prove it? No. It just seems like an absurd hypothesis for me to hold. (Actually I could live with _a_ god. Believing in a specific and detailed religion, now that's absurd.) -xx- Damien X-) From zaphod at charter.net Tue Nov 26 21:05:01 2002 From: zaphod at charter.net (Greg Schwartz) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 00:05:01 -0500 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: <3DE39325.1060401@attbi.com> Message-ID: <00d901c295d2$8aedb460$6501a8c0@ma.charter.com> > > Speaking of religion in literature, one of the *many* things I love > > about David Weber's work is that the Christian church is very much > > present in Honor's universe. I get cranky when societies have total > > absence of religion--individuals may be athiests, but humans as a > > group are going to worship *something*. and... > I get cranky when far-future societies have anything recognizable as > religion, personally. Makes no sense it would last that long. It seems to me that among the attempts to rigidly define athiesm, we have two opposing viewpoints. Perhaps what we like to see in the future is molded by our own beliefs. Someone with faith prefers a far future where religion has discarded most of it's negative baggage, and someone without faith feels that faith itself is negative baggage. I'd say that athiesm is not a religion, and you can firmly be an athiest without absolute proof of the non-existance of god/s... if you absolutely lack faith, than you are an athiest. -Greg Schwartz From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue Nov 26 21:01:58 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:01:58 -0800 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <20021127000132.71788.qmail@web13707.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20021127000132.71788.qmail@web13707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20021127050158.GF1174@ofb.net> On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 04:01:32PM -0800, Erik Dahl wrote: > To complicate this further, I'll mention that for some reason your post struck > me to wonder at the etymological relationship between "theism" and "atheism," > and "gnosticism" and "agnosticism." Based on my limited understanding of > gnosticism, I don't see the connection. :) gnosis in general is "knowledge"; Tolkien mapped his Noldor Elves to the Gnomes once -- the wise ones. a-gnosticism here is related to claiming a lack of knowledge, or denying the possibility of knowledge, depending on your flavor of agnosticism. Not to be confused with Gnosticism, the mystics around the time of Christ who discovered secret mysteries aren't a good way to have your religion survive. :) -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue Nov 26 21:11:29 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:11:29 -0800 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20021127051129.GG1174@ofb.net> On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 10:59:10PM +0000, H. T. wrote: > According to the book "Our Religions" and the damn instructor who taught > the course that used that horrible book, both Buddhism and Taoism are > "atheistic" religions (did I spell it correctly? heh.). If you wander though an Asian art museum, this commonly repeated idea of Buddhism as an atheistic religion seems pretty implausible. They don't have a Creator like the monotheist religions, but so what? They've got Buddhas and boddhisattvas and demons and hells. And above all the soul; without reincarnation of the soul Buddhism makes no sense. It's a ground belief, like original sin/salvation for Christianity. As an AI researcher and general materialist I actually have less trouble with a Creator (universe could be someone's SimUniverse game) than with a soul (that's what we have brains for.) California Buddhism may be a fairly austere and supernatural-being-less religion, but I think Buddhism in its home ground is just as rich in beings as Catholicism with its saints or Greek religion with its various divine aspects and demigods. Taoism I know less about, but you've got the various Immortals... > Therefore, I suppose one can say, some Atheists have religion to the point > they have a name for what they believe in. (Is this a contradiction? Not Atheists have a name to distinguish themselves from the believers. The problem with calling atheism a religion is that atheists, outside of maybe American Atheists, don't live lives informed by atheism. They just get along in life; the atheism only comes out in contrast with a theist. It's just absence. Now if someone wanted to say materialism or Communism were religions, or at least life-defining belief systems, there'd at least be a case. I think a useful concept which got lost is one of "moral philosophy". Like Stoicism or Epicureanism. Which often included statements about the gods, but the gods weren't really important to the meat of the philosophy. Confucianism might be another example. -xx- Damien X-) From rone at ennui.org Tue Nov 26 21:11:45 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:11:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <00d901c295d2$8aedb460$6501a8c0@ma.charter.com> from Greg Schwartz at "Nov 27, 2002 00:05:01 am" Message-ID: <20021127051145.3167726E31@boredom.ennui.org> Greg Schwartz writes: I'd say that athiesm is not a religion, and you can firmly be an athiest without absolute proof of the non-existance of god/s... if you absolutely lack faith, than you are an athiest. That makes no sense at all. You can have faith in something other than a god and still be an atheist. The question seems to be: Can the certain denial of any god's existence on part of atheists be called faith? I think so. I am not alone in this belief (HA!). rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From frank at exit.com Tue Nov 26 21:13:20 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:13:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <20021126232430.81265.qmail@web13709.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200211270513.gAR5DKKi046537@realtime.exit.com> Erik Dahl wrote: > I find this recent trend towards defining atheism as a religion of non-belief > very disconcerting. Instead of maintaining that atheism is "belief in no god," > or "belief there is no god," can't we say instead that it is "no belief in > god?" For me, at any rate, it is more about not believing in something than > believing in something opposed to something else. That has always been my position, the many times I've engaged in this kind of discussion. It's not a belief, it's a _lack_ of belief. I similarly don't believe that an invisible asthmatic squid is hovering over my lamp, as well. I don't know why this seems so difficult for some folks to understand. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From zaphod at charter.net Tue Nov 26 21:19:53 2002 From: zaphod at charter.net (Greg Schwartz) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 00:19:53 -0500 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: <20021127051145.3167726E31@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <012201c295d4$9dd85100$6501a8c0@ma.charter.com> > That makes no sense at all. You can have faith in something other > than a god and still be an atheist. > read it as absolute lack of faith in god/s then.. was trying to keep it as simple as possible. -Greg Schwartz From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue Nov 26 21:17:50 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:17:50 -0800 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: References: <20021126171859.66503.qmail@web12707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20021127051750.GH1174@ofb.net> On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 12:22:52PM -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > In fantasy, sure. Like Lois Bujold's _Curse of Chalion_. Religion > plays a large role in that book, and I like it very well. Whereas a lot of Bujold list members get very grumpy about the lack of organized religion in the Miles books, despite -- or maybe because of[1] -- the relatively high (for science fiction) level of spirituality of various characters, and sympathy for nebulous religious feeling. They're never happy about my bringing up the trend to religionlessness in those parts of the First World which aren't the United States either... [1] I suspect the spirituality of the books attracts more religious people to the list, increasing the sensitivity to organized religion in general. By contrast imagine an Iain Banks or Vernor Vinge list -- they don't attack religion the way Greg Egan, say, does, but I wouldn't expect a lot of religiosity[2] among their dedicated fans. [2] Except for socialism for the Banksies, and Singularitarianism for some Vingeans... -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue Nov 26 21:39:11 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:39:11 -0800 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20021127053911.GI1174@ofb.net> On Mon, Nov 25, 2002 at 10:26:10PM +0000, H. T. wrote: > in the lead is Heinlien, Patricia Wrede and Norton Juster, closely followed > by Susan Cooper, Ursula Le Guin and C.S. Lewis (though I must say that I > think Lewis is a little old for an 11 year old, and especially a little old > for my step-brother). Narnia was _written_ for 11 year olds. Stuff I read at young, young, ages: Roald Dahl's children books, which are kind of fantasy.[1] L'Engle's Wrinkle et al. books. Le Guin's Earthsea. The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings Lloyd Alexander's Prydain books. MacAvoy's _Raphael_. (I'm Damien Raphael Sullivan. I had to read it.) The Blue Sword, although I then totally forgot it. But lots like it. The Harper Hall of Pern books. Jane Yolen's dragon books seem good too. Besides, very few books actually take place in another galaxy. :) Now, I'm a freak, because I read LotR before 10, Moby Dick at 8, and much of Mallory at 7. (I'm not sure that much chivalry before puberty is a good thing.) But none of the above books are like Moby Dick; except for LotR and MacAvoy, they're pretty much written for children/young adults, but not in a dumb way. And often shelved for children/young adults. There's also a dim, dim, memory of Dr. Doolittle. [1] I'd also read Dahl's short stories, but your parents would kill you for those. > Christmas. Seriously though, thank you all, as every year I struggle with > what to buy this kid, and now I have many many wonderful ideas. *smile* I sympathize with the situation, especially if you're used to books-as-gifts and the kid isn't much of a reader. -xx- Damien X-) From andrew at networkharmoni.com.au Tue Nov 26 21:47:56 2002 From: andrew at networkharmoni.com.au (Andrew Bailey) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:47:56 +0800 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: <200211270513.gAR5DKKi046537@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <3DE45C8C.2010902@networkharmoni.com.au> Frank Mayhar wrote: > Erik Dahl wrote: > >>I find this recent trend towards defining atheism as a religion of non-belief >>very disconcerting. Instead of maintaining that atheism is "belief in no god," >>or "belief there is no god," can't we say instead that it is "no belief in >>god?" For me, at any rate, it is more about not believing in something than >>believing in something opposed to something else. > > > That has always been my position, the many times I've engaged in this kind > of discussion. It's not a belief, it's a _lack_ of belief. I similarly > don't believe that an invisible asthmatic squid is hovering over my lamp, > as well. > It depends, for some people it is a belief. I know a few people who describe them selves as Atheists and are almost evangelical in their belief "That there is _no_ god". As opposed to people like myself, who admit they don't know and futher feel the question is irrelevent to how they view the world. Oh and I consider myself an agnostic, though reading the dictionary definitions posted for that word I may have to invent a new term :) > I don't know why this seems so difficult for some folks to understand. Because some people feel that there is more than two answers to the question "Is there a God?". And so if we choose to categorise people by their answer to that question , we have to have more that two terms. But basically it gets tied down a lot in exact definitions of Agnostic vs Atheist, and what a religion is. For a bit of fun, consider the following question: "If Gods existance was proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt , tomorrow, how would that affect you?" Andrew. From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue Nov 26 21:59:51 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:59:51 -0800 Subject: [Fwd: Re: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth] In-Reply-To: <3DE4390F.76D86A0E@sympatico.ca> References: <3DE4390F.76D86A0E@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20021127055951.GJ1174@ofb.net> On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 10:16:31PM -0500, James and Mary Burbidge wrote: > it. He wrote a true allegory (_Pilgrim's Regress_). The Narnia books > do not have the defining characteristic of an allegory -- they do not > carry through two or more layers of continuous story using one set of > representations. > > They don't even have allegorical elements. They are set in a multiverse > in which Christianity is true; Aslan does not allegorically stand for > God the Son -- he _is_ God the Son, straight out, although the identity > is not shoved in one's face. They're to some extent re-tellings of Christian tales. I was really shocked when I did re-read the books. In _Wardrobe_ you have the Witch claiming Edmond's life under the Law -- the Emperor's own law, as written on the stone table (tablets, anyone?) Aslan doesn't roar and fight; he acknowledges the claim, and offers himself up for Edmond's sin... The Black Dwarfs seemed uncomfortably like Jews to me, and that was reinforced when I hit _The Last Battle_, where they keep on denying Aslan even in Heaven itself, which they don't see. All the humans of the world of Narnia, of course, are actually Sons and Daughters of Adam and Eve. There are other examples, but it's been a while. 'allegory' might not be the right word, but it seems like there should be a word. 'allegory' seems to have been drafted in popular discourse. I've read real allegories are very rare; maybe that's why the word got drafted... -xx- Damien X-) From books at bofh.com Tue Nov 26 21:58:31 2002 From: books at bofh.com (books at bofh.com) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 22:58:31 -0700 (MST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Tue, 26 Nov 2002 23:31:34 +0000" Message-ID: <01KPCA06K0BU000JK5@chud.net> >>Penney, Sean writes: >>Gah! Your prof was an "oxymoronic" knob. >> So we're back to belief in doorknobs? Fscking atheists. It's "The One True Doorknob". ;) -Jot From books at bofh.com Tue Nov 26 22:14:33 2002 From: books at bofh.com (books at bofh.com) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 23:14:33 -0700 (MST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:51:15 -0600" References: <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <15843.46891.246035.618358@gw.dd-b.net> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> Message-ID: <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> >The obsessive need to know "answers" to meaningless "questions" is >(and should be recognized as) a personality disorder. We'll >eventually learn to treat it, and root out the memes that lead to it. >My need to believe in goals, order, and a direction to evolution (for >example) impose no obligation on the universe to actually work that >way. One of the things that struck me when looking at MIT's OpenCourseWare stuff (http://ocw.mit.edu/index.html) was the course on Quantum Mechanics. (http://ocw.mit.edu/5/5.61/f01/index.html). Now most of this was clearly out of my league, with my engineering math, thankfully, well behind me. BUT, the interesting thing to me (and the portion relevant to this conversation) was the discovery that many things (at least on the quantum level) are not deterministic, but instead probablistic (sp). This is a fundamental difference that makes things very difficult for people who believe in logic and order. (It turns out I'm one of these people, ah the interesting connundrum). I also do not believe that DDB is not religious. I will offer as inflamatory examples requests for discussions on the following subjects by him: 1) List headers should have the list address set as reply-to 2) Vi is better than Emacs 3) Ksh is the best shell 4) Sendmail is clearly superior to qmail 5) HTML is necessary for effective email communications ... These are clearly religious issues. :) -Jot From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Nov 26 22:46:56 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 22:46:56 -0800 Subject: Domino's Lute In-Reply-To: <001b01c295c8$7547e900$883e5418@dontbenosy> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126224624.02788c60@localhost> At 07:52 PM 11/26/2002 -0800, Sean wrote: >For your amusement... > > From the Frantics skit, "Worshippers R Us", off of the _Boot to the Head_ >album. Feh. Zelazny did it much better in _Creatures of Light and Darkness_ From don at easterlys.com Tue Nov 26 23:47:01 2002 From: don at easterlys.com (Don Easterly) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 22:47:01 -0900 Subject: There are 201 unread Mail messages in your Inbox Message-ID: <001a01c295e9$2c99a2e0$0300a8c0@dad> Jesus Christ. :D From books at bofh.com Wed Nov 27 00:13:23 2002 From: books at bofh.com (books at bofh.com) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 01:13:23 -0700 (MST) Subject: There are 201 unread Mail messages in your Inbox In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Tue, 26 Nov 2002 22:47:01 -0900" <001a01c295e9$2c99a2e0$0300a8c0@dad> Message-ID: <01KPCEP8BMPM000JN9@chud.net> An embedded message was scrubbed... From: unknown sender Subject: no subject Date: no date Size: 136 Url: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20021127/f00dc791/attachment.mht From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Wed Nov 27 00:16:08 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 02:16:08 -0600 Subject: There are 201 unread Mail messages in your Inbox References: <001a01c295e9$2c99a2e0$0300a8c0@dad> Message-ID: Don Easterly wrote: > Jesus Christ. > > > >> D Oh yeah well I've got 649 unread messages from a while back that number was closer to 1,000 before I started working on it, that's what I got for being away for a week, I did go through them to make sure none were time critical what's left is all messages from this list, I had planned to read them during the week I had thought I'd be offline when I moved two weeks ago. The cable guy showed up the next day after I called him so I was only offline for a day, it's funny how preparing for the worst left me unprepared for the best. From calianng_graves at yahoo.com Wed Nov 27 00:16:43 2002 From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 00:16:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: There are 201 unread Mail messages in your Inbox In-Reply-To: <01KPCEP8BMPM000JN9@chud.net> Message-ID: <20021127081644.48172.qmail@web21106.mail.yahoo.com> Mine was 269.....jeez. Caliann *Owned and Operated by the Grand Poohbah Cheese of the Universe* books at bofh.com wrote:> ATTACHMENT part TEXT message/rfc822 >Jesus Christ. You're not helping. What discussion do you think caused half of them? ;) -Jot "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now From andrew at networkharmoni.com.au Wed Nov 27 00:18:56 2002 From: andrew at networkharmoni.com.au (Andrew Bailey) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 16:18:56 +0800 Subject: There are 201 unread Mail messages in your Inbox References: <20021127081644.48172.qmail@web21106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3DE47FF0.1000109@networkharmoni.com.au> Caliann the Elf wrote: > Mine was 269.....jeez. > Caliann > *Owned and Operated by the Grand Poohbah Cheese of the Universe* > books at bofh.com wrote:> ATTACHMENT part TEXT message/rfc822 > >>Jesus Christ. > > > You're not helping. > > What discussion do you think caused half of them? ;) > > -Jot > > "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby > > And the new book isn't quite out yet. Imagine what its going to be like when people start reading Paths of the Dead :) Andrew. > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now From calianng_graves at yahoo.com Wed Nov 27 00:35:24 2002 From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 00:35:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: There are 201 unread Mail messages in your Inbox In-Reply-To: <3DE47FF0.1000109@networkharmoni.com.au> Message-ID: <20021127083524.59842.qmail@web21109.mail.yahoo.com> Do I have to? Isn't that going to be a LOT of work for me? Caliann *Owned and Operated by the Grand Poohbah Cheese of the Universe* Andrew Bailey wrote:And the new book isn't quite out yet. Imagine what its going to be like when people start reading Paths of the Dead :) Andrew. "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now From ambyrglow at softhome.net Wed Nov 27 00:40:56 2002 From: ambyrglow at softhome.net (Claire Rojstaczer) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 03:40:56 -0500 Subject: There are 201 unread Mail messages in your Inbox In-Reply-To: <3DE47FF0.1000109@networkharmoni.com.au> References: <20021127081644.48172.qmail@web21106.mail.yahoo.com> <3DE47FF0.1000109@networkharmoni.com.au> Message-ID: > >And the new book isn't quite out yet. Imagine what its going to be >like when people start reading Paths of the Dead :) > >Andrew. > It's not when people -start- reading Paths of the Dead that has me worried, it's when people -finish- and emerge from their reading cocoons to actually write ;-). Right, back to cocooning myself in Robin Hobb's latest, then. Claire From JealousGerbil at aol.com Wed Nov 27 01:20:35 2002 From: JealousGerbil at aol.com (JealousGerbil at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 04:20:35 EST Subject: There are 201 unread Mail messages in your Inbox Message-ID: <97.3162bc8e.2b15e863@aol.com> >Right, back to cocooning myself in Robin Hobb's latest, then. Yay Robin Hobb... I wish I had enough money to buy Fool's Errand. Mm, can't wait for Paths of the Dead.. it's totally going to be on my Christmas List. Oh, and I just joined this mailing list, so, salutations to all :) - Juils From davids at kithrup.com Wed Nov 27 01:50:37 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 01:50:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Domino's Lute In-Reply-To: <3DE406C5.3040908@attbi.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Mia McDavid wrote: >The term I use is 'belief' and 'believer.' I tend to dislike >'religious' because it is often identified with outward show and >trappings as opposed to really trying to walk the walk. > >Of course, I contend that an atheist "believes" in the absence of God >(unlike a blue sky, not easily provable). So, we're no farther >forrader, are we? 'Faith' and 'faithful', same problem. DDB expresses >great faith in his atheistic worldview. > >What about 'mystic?' What we're really looking for, I think, is the >antonym to 'materialist.' > 'Immaterialist'? <*rimshot*> I found almost all of the Agnostics Prayer/Litany, by the way: http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/lennybruce/jokes/agnostics-prayer.txt (and added in the missing line below) Madrak the Preacher, from "Creatures of Light and Darkness". Ah, the classics. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The Possibly Proper Death Litany "Insofar as I may be heard by anything, which may or may not care what I say, I ask, if it matters, that you be forgiven for anything you may have done or failed to do which requires forgiveness. Conversely, if not forgiveness but something else may be required to insure any possible benefit for which you may be eligible after the destruction of your body, I ask that this, whatever it may be, be granted or withheld, as the case may be, in such a manner as to insure your receiving said benefit. I ask this in my capacity as your elected intermediary between yourself and that which may not be yourself, but which may have an interest in the matter of your receiving as much as it is possible for you to receive of this thing, and which may in some way be influenced by this ceremony. Amen." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Then into the hands of Whatever May Be that is greater than life or death, I resign myself -- if this act will be of any assistance in preserving my life. If it will not, I do not. If my saying this thing at all be presumptuous, and therefore not well received by Whatever may or may not care to listen, then I withdraw the statement and ask forgiveness, if this thing be desired. If not, I do not. On the other hand ..." (at this point, Madrak is interrupted, as his companion feels the accomplishment of the objective of Madrak's prayer -- and the preservation of his own life -- will be better served by getting the hell out of there). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Thou who might be our Father, Who perhaps may be in heaven..." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "...hallowed be thy name, if a name thou hast and any desire to see it hallowed..." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From righel at msn.com Wed Nov 27 04:45:31 2002 From: righel at msn.com (Rosemary Ighel) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 06:45:31 -0600 Subject: Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: <1858.192.168.1.1.1038360484.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Castello [mailto:rick at 404.978.org] > > Alton Brown is the man, and his Good Eats show on Food Network > is basically Mr. Wizard Goes to the Kitchen. > > Always brine your bird. :) Wherever were we before Post-it Notes and FoodTV? This year, we are in charge of the bird. Make that bird(s). Since my Domestic Associate detests turkey, he's been on a 22 year (I can't answer for before I met him) mission to make it palatable to him. This year's offerings are pepper smoked turkey and citrus fried turkey. Both of them brining as we 'speak'. I'm waiting for Alton to tell us that sometimes you just have to cut the bad part of the onion out, and then I'll be all set. R. From rsuitor at cjwrfs.net Wed Nov 27 07:10:00 2002 From: rsuitor at cjwrfs.net (Richard Suitor) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 10:10:00 -0500 Subject: Domino's Lute In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126145741.0271ed90@localhost> References: <114.1b2e0f75.2b152960@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20021126145741.0271ed90@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:03:17 -0800, Steven Brust wrote: >It is certainly possible to define religion that way. It even makes a >certain amount of sense. But then we're left with needing a word that >means, belief in and reverence for a superhuman power. Right now we have a >perfectly good word for that: religion. If you want religion to mean >something else, please supply me with a word that means what we now mean by >religion, so we can talk about it. The problem is that religion covers many sins. We'd like to reserve it for the continuation that we think is the most essential. Obviously there are a variety of opinions on that subject. Other posters have cited belief systems that are normally called "religions" that in fact do not involve a superhuman power, although they do involve belief in and reverence for historical teachers and a particular approach to living. I submit that the presence of one or more superhuman powers (and for monotheistic religions, Judaism and Christianity seem to come up with an awful lot of superhuman powers :) ) is not the essential characteristic of a religion. So, to answer your question, religion, such as theistic. It's not my field, there may be a more widely used term. I prefer to generalize the term even more, to cover the approaches people take to make decisions when they don't know what's going on. That is because personally I am very concerned about the numbers of people in the US in particular that reject scientifically established facts in favor of neo-traditional systems (such as creationism). I think it all too easy to dismiss such people as unenlightened - it doesn't solve the problem. I think part of the problem lies in the fact that for most people it is very hard to distinguish a scientist from a priest (other than by reading the label). Except the priest has more practical suggestions for keeping a strong society and/or marriage going, doesn't make terrifying weapons, doesn't invent clever gadgets that change society and the economy and doesn't invent ingenious chemicals that turn out twenty years later to cause terrifying problems.[1] These considerations are much more important to many people than is the search for "truth". The problem that religion presents to people is part of its virtue - a system of beliefs that people have successfully used to order and bring meaning to their lives and are consequently antagonistic to attempts to erode. One doesn't require a superhuman power to make that work. Richard [1] I don't present that as a fair assessment of science - I do present it as a widely held one. From chrislee at neo.rr.com Wed Nov 27 07:33:36 2002 From: chrislee at neo.rr.com (chris cunningham) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 10:33:36 -0500 Subject: Pattern matching References: <20021126194626.GA10348@galadriel.alyra.org> <3DE3D8D0.5090007@attbi.com> <20021127025354.GI1625@galadriel.alyra.org> <2458.192.168.1.1.1038366038.squirrel@404.978.org> <3DE43AC9.7080109@networkharmoni.com.au> Message-ID: <013601c2962a$5ad693c0$2b20d118@neo.rr.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Bailey" > Rick Castello wrote: > > The human brain (some more than others) is an EXCELLENT machine > > for pattern-matching. > Very very good at it, to the point it can generate false positives. > Think "Face of Jesus in a tortilla" . ooh, freaky. was going to post the exact same observation, down to the tortilla. great minds think alike, as do ours. chris cunningham From casey at trinityhartford.org Wed Nov 27 07:50:33 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 10:50:33 -0500 Subject: Early readers In-Reply-To: <20021127053911.GI1174@ofb.net> Message-ID: Damien wrote: > Now, I'm a freak, because I read LotR before 10, Moby Dick at 8, > and much of I tried and failed to read MD at 7 or 8. I should have waited until I was 9 or 10. As a result, I've never read the whole thing, only abridged versions. :( Casey From ajmcguigan at yahoo.com Wed Nov 27 08:38:05 2002 From: ajmcguigan at yahoo.com (Andrew McGuigan) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 08:38:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126141008.02583540@localhost> Message-ID: <20021127163805.16928.qmail@web12704.mail.yahoo.com> --- Steven Brust wrote: > > > To say, "there has always been religion" and leave > it at that is like > saying, "there has always been interest in numbers," > as if our > understanding of mathematics has not progressed in > the last five thousand > years. Well, it was a start, and I wasn't sure I would get agreement even with those statements. :) >This would lead to the conclusion that any > place you put your > finger on the time line of man's knowledge of > mathematics is as valid as > any other; we can thus throw out logarithms, the > square root of -1, all of > calculous, &tc &tc. > I think we are discussing more man's interest in religion (or mathematics) than his achievements. David seemed to be saying it's not believable that there would be interest in religion (or, as I prefer it, spirituality) in the far future, since we would have explained everything with science that religion sought to answer. I think there are questions that are unanswerable by science > Man's religious beliefs have changed over the > millennia. In my opinion, an > examination of these changes would lead to the > conclusion that the gods > have been shrinking. Those areas where the > supernatural is required for > understanding have gotten smaller and smaller. The > idea that they might > vanish entirely in the not-to-distant future doesn't > seem farfetched to me. I agree if you restrict your focus to the Western world (by which I mean Europe and North America). I would argue that religion is THE focus of many populous societies in other parts of the world; India, China (Falon Gong), the MidEast... > > On the other hand, it might be that the devil is > making me say this. > No, the Devil wants people to be religious so that they believe in him as well. :) From zizban at adelphia.net Wed Nov 27 08:30:48 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:30:48 -0500 Subject: Early readers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <963322F6-0225-11D7-92EC-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Wednesday, November 27, 2002, at 10:50 AM, Casey Rousseau wrote: > Damien wrote: >> Now, I'm a freak, because I read LotR before 10, Moby Dick at 8, >> and much of > > I tried and failed to read MD at 7 or 8. I should have waited until I > was 9 > or 10. As a result, I've never read the whole thing, only abridged > versions. > > :( The read the Illustrated Classics version of MD, does that count? :-) I also had to read the real deal in college but I never finished it. I don't think its that great of a book. I did read LoTR at age 14 and have reread it many times. --- "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -Albert Einstein From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Nov 27 08:51:30 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 08:51:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: <200211271651.gARGpOu17800@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > isn't 'reasonable obsessive-compulsive' an oxy-moron? > > no jabs here, I'm clinicaly light obsessive-compulsive. In her case, no. She's one of the most reasonable people I have EVER met. She just has a hard time, sometimes, getting out of the door to go to work. (And a few other things.) But she tends to be (underline that bit:) extremely calm and collected when others would be totaly unreasonable. Go figure. Chris From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Nov 27 08:55:03 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 08:55:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: <200211271654.gARGsvu18215@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > agnostic: > A. n. One who holds that the existence of anything beyond and behind > material phenomena is unknown and (so far as can be judged) > unknowable, and especially that a First Cause and an unseen world are > subjects of which we know nothing. > [Suggested by Prof. Huxley at a party held previous to the formation > of the now defunct Metaphysical Society, at Mr. James Knowles's house > on Clapham Common, one evening in 1869, in my hearing. He took it from > St. Paul's mention of the alter to 'the Unknown God.' R.H Hutton in > letter 13 Mar. 1881.] > > Atheist is much simpler: > > 1. One who denies or disbelieves the existence of a God. > > And dates to at least 1568. Hey! Does this mean Agnostisism was the next evolutionary step from Atheism? (What? I can hope for a superior outlook on life from my atheist brothers and sisters, can't I? Does that make me evil?) Chris From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Nov 27 09:00:11 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 09:00:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pattern matching Message-ID: <200211271700.gARH06u19376@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Very very good at it, to the point it can generate false positives. > Think "Face of Jesus in a tortilla" . > > That's not a false positive, unless you happen to think a tortilla > that looks like Jesus is a miracle. Hey! I've never been on a tortilla!! (Uh... Sorry. I see the "J" word, and it's a force of habit to look up and say "What?"...) Chris (Who got to be crucified on stage!!) From chrislee at neo.rr.com Wed Nov 27 09:27:06 2002 From: chrislee at neo.rr.com (chris cunningham) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 12:27:06 -0500 Subject: Domino's Lute References: <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <15843.46891.246035.618358@gw.dd-b.net> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> Message-ID: <01cb01c2963a$355aae00$2b20d118@neo.rr.com> > DDB said: > > >It's going strong *here*, and in a lot of third-world places, but it's > >remarkably dead throughout the rest of the developed world. We're > >kind of an outlier. > > Yeah, but the rest of the developed world (Europe, yes?) only represents > a few percent of humankind. You apparently believe that they indicate > the direction that the rest of us are going in; given enough time and > resources. > > Maybe. > > You've made me curious, though. What is *their* answer to "why, why, why?" > > Mia 'In the beginning, God created the earth, and he looked upon it in His cosmic loneliness. And God said, "Let Us make living creatures out of mud, so the mud can see what We have done." And God created every living creature that now moveth, and one was man. Mud as man alone could speak. God leaned close as mud as man sat up, looked around, and spoke. Man blinked. "What is the purpose of all this?" he asked politely. "Everything must have a purpose?" asked God. "Certainly," said man. "Then I leave it to you to think of one for all this," said God. And He went away.' (also from vonnegut's _cat's cradle_) i suppose that's why religion in some form or another will be with us for a long time, the need to ask "why?" and the expectation that such a question must have an answer. don't know about *their answer*, but mine is that i don't worry about the (religious) "why's", as i find the (scientific) "how's" much more interesting. also, the two get mixed up sometimes, like "why is the sky blue?" i mean, i can tell you *how/by what process* it is that the sky is blue, but i don't see any *why/wherefore/for what reason/towards what goal* involved with the sky's coloration. any multilingual types out there know if there are languages where "why" and "how" don't get easily mixed up? i know some arabic, and it seems just as confusable, therein. chris cunningham From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Nov 27 09:27:43 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:27:43 -0600 (CST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: Chris Olson - SunPS's message <200211271654.gARGsvu18215@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> of 27 November 2002 References: <200211271654.gARGsvu18215@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <15845.143.931169.306917@gw.dd-b.net> Chris Olson - SunPS writes on 27 November 2002 at 08:55:03 -0800 > > agnostic: > > A. n. One who holds that the existence of anything beyond and behind > > material phenomena is unknown and (so far as can be judged) > > unknowable, and especially that a First Cause and an unseen world are > > subjects of which we know nothing. > > [Suggested by Prof. Huxley at a party held previous to the formation > > of the now defunct Metaphysical Society, at Mr. James Knowles's house > > on Clapham Common, one evening in 1869, in my hearing. He took it from > > St. Paul's mention of the alter to 'the Unknown God.' R.H Hutton in > > letter 13 Mar. 1881.] > > > > Atheist is much simpler: > > > > 1. One who denies or disbelieves the existence of a God. > > > > And dates to at least 1568. > > Hey! Does this mean Agnostisism was the next evolutionary > step from Atheism? (What? I can hope for a superior outlook on > life from my atheist brothers and sisters, can't I? Does that > make me evil?) Looks like it in some ways to me. Atheism denies god, Agnosticism denies the whole non-material world *and* asserts the importance of knowability. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Nov 27 09:31:33 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 27 Nov 2002 11:31:33 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <20021127051145.3167726E31@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20021127051145.3167726E31@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) writes: > Greg Schwartz writes: > I'd say that athiesm is not a religion, and you can firmly be an athiest > without absolute proof of the non-existance of god/s... if you absolutely > lack faith, than you are an athiest. > > That makes no sense at all. You can have faith in something other > than a god and still be an atheist. > > The question seems to be: Can the certain denial of any god's > existence on part of atheists be called faith? I think so. I am not > alone in this belief (HA!). English doesn't have the moods, or something, for precise discussion in this area. The Christian god (or any other god) doesn't exist for me in the same way that Doc Smith's intelligent, immortal, energy beings don't exist -- they seem unlikely, and there isn't the slightest evidence for their existence. Since it's impossible to prove a negative, I can't farther than that on *anything*. Either one *could* exist, certainly. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From eriktdahl at yahoo.com Wed Nov 27 09:34:35 2002 From: eriktdahl at yahoo.com (Erik Dahl) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 09:34:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thanksgiving Message-ID: <20021127173435.21558.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com> David Dyer-Bennet (>) and I (>>) wrote: >> This year I'm brining the turkey again, because osmosis is a wonderful >> thing. If you've never soaked the bird in such a solution, I heartily >> recommend it. It keeps it moist throughout the long cooking time and >> adds incredible flavor. > Is this the politically correct alternative to injecting it with > broth? I don't know about "politically correct," and I've never injected a turkey with broth, but my instinct is that injection wouldn't work as well, because it would puncture the skin, allowing juices to seep out during cooking, and it would be very hit-and-miss between the parts that were flavored and those that weren't. Basically, by immersing the turkey in a salty solution for many hours, the water in the meat and the water in the bucket want to reach equilibrium, so the salty water gets sucked into the turkey, bringing all the flavors in with it. Then they get trapped there. Here's the brine I'm using (taken directly from Alton Brown's Good Eats): 1 cup kosher salt (has more flavor, but regular salt will work) 1/2 cup light brown sugar 1 gallon vegetable stock 1 tablespoon black peppercorns 1/2 tablespoon allspice berries 1/2 tablespoon candied ginger Combine all these in a stockpot and bring to a boil. Stir to dissolve, then remove from heat, cool to room temperature, then refrigerate until thoroughly chilled. At least six hours before roasting, combine the brine and one gallon of iced water in an unused 5-gallon bucket, place the thawed turket breast side down in it, cover, and set it in a cool area. Turn the turkey once. The recipe goes on to talk about roasting it with aromatics (an apple, an onion, and cinnamon) in the cavity instead of stuffing, since the stuffing can dry out the bird and doesn't contribute as much to the flavor. Basting is also discouraged, since opening the oven a lot lengthens the cooking time and all the flavor should already be inside the skin. You can find the recipe at http://www.foodtv.com/foodtv/recipe/0,6255,8865,00.html. > Pumpkin pie and mince pie for dessert. Mmmm. Pumpkin pie is the norm for us, but we thought we'd try the cheesecake this year. I'm reconsidering now, though. :) > Cranberry sauce, check; I'm fairly interested in all sorts of different > cranberry sauces and relishes. You might be interested in trying a cranberry dipping sauce, like this one: http://www.foodtv.com/foodtv/recipe/0,6255,6953,00.html My family seems to prefer having it in a communal dish and slathering it on everything on the plate itself, but it seems like an efficient idea for applying cranberry to the meat to me. > Gravy, not for me. Potatoes, not for me (in a meal with > stuffing in it). Sweet potatoes, traditional, but not important to > me. I think I'd be impaled on my own electric knife if I tried to remove the potatoes or gravy from the menu. :) > And a good dry white wine. That's crucial. Or two, or three. Alas, my parents-in-law, if they are not teetotalers, are disinterested in alcohol. We'll have a lot of sparkling apple cider, instead. But what wines do you favor? From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Nov 27 09:35:46 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 27 Nov 2002 11:35:46 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> References: <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <15843.46891.246035.618358@gw.dd-b.net> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> Message-ID: books at bofh.com writes: > >The obsessive need to know "answers" to meaningless "questions" is > >(and should be recognized as) a personality disorder. We'll > >eventually learn to treat it, and root out the memes that lead to it. > >My need to believe in goals, order, and a direction to evolution (for > >example) impose no obligation on the universe to actually work that > >way. > > One of the things that struck me when looking at MIT's OpenCourseWare > stuff (http://ocw.mit.edu/index.html) was the course on Quantum Mechanics. > (http://ocw.mit.edu/5/5.61/f01/index.html). Now most of this was clearly > out of my league, with my engineering math, thankfully, well behind me. > BUT, the interesting thing to me (and the portion relevant to this > conversation) was the discovery that many things (at least on the quantum > level) are not deterministic, but instead probablistic (sp). This is a > fundamental difference that makes things very difficult for people who > believe in logic and order. (It turns out I'm one of these people, ah > the interesting connundrum). > > I also do not believe that DDB is not religious. I will offer > as inflamatory examples requests for discussions on the following > subjects by him: > > 1) List headers should have the list address set as reply-to > 2) Vi is better than Emacs > 3) Ksh is the best shell > 4) Sendmail is clearly superior to qmail > 5) HTML is necessary for effective email communications > ... > These are clearly religious issues. :) Not in the sense we're discussing. There are solid, real-world, observable, measurable, reasons for preferences among the things on those lists. And, unlike god, there aren't people questioning the very existence of emacs. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Nov 27 09:37:44 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 27 Nov 2002 11:37:44 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <20021127163805.16928.qmail@web12704.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20021127163805.16928.qmail@web12704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Andrew McGuigan writes: > I think we are discussing more man's interest in > religion (or mathematics) than his achievements. > David seemed to be saying it's not believable that > there would be interest in religion (or, as I prefer > it, spirituality) in the far future, since we would > have explained everything with science that religion > sought to answer. I think there are questions that > are unanswerable by science I'm not saying it's isn't conceivable, or believable, that there would be religion. Just that I thought there wouldn't be. Actually, that I *hoped* there wouldn't be, because religion makes the world a worse place. Religion is a bad source of answers for moral questions. By relating things to outside absolutes, it loses any sanity-check on the results. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From electrictwilight at hotmail.com Wed Nov 27 09:48:48 2002 From: electrictwilight at hotmail.com (H. T.) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 17:48:48 +0000 Subject: Domino's Lute Message-ID: ahhhhh, finally an explanation, well to that I say: "busy busy busy :) tee hee hee" **looking at what "could be" ice-nine and asking "should I? should I? Should I drop it?" oops! too late*** (Sorry, woke up in a stranger mood than usual...okay I'll stop now before my boss fires me :P) _______________________________________________________________________ >From: "chris cunningham" >To: >Subject: Re: Domino's Lute >Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 12:27:06 -0500 > >DDB said: > >It's going strong *here*, and in a lot of third-world places, but >it's >remarkably dead throughout the rest of the developed world. We're >kind of an outlier. > >Yeah, but the rest of the developed world (Europe, yes?) only >represents >a few percent of humankind. You apparently believe that they >indicate >the direction that the rest of us are going in; given enough time >and >resources. > >Maybe. > >You've made me curious, though. What is *their* answer to "why, >why, >why?" > >Mia > >'In the beginning, God created the earth, and he looked upon it in His >cosmic loneliness. >And God said, "Let Us make living creatures out of mud, so the mud can >see >what We have done." And God created every living creature that now > >moveth, >and one was man. Mud as man alone could speak. God leaned close as >mud >as >man sat up, looked around, and spoke. Man blinked. "What is the >purpose >of >all this?" he asked politely. >"Everything must have a purpose?" asked God. >"Certainly," said man. >"Then I leave it to you to think of one for all this," said God. >And He went away.' > >(also from vonnegut's _cat's cradle_) > >i suppose that's why religion in some form or another will be with us >for >a >long time, the need to ask "why?" and the expectation that such a >question >must have an answer. don't know about *their answer*, but mine is >that i >don't worry about the (religious) "why's", as i find the (scientific) >"how's" much more interesting. > >also, the two get mixed up sometimes, like "why is the sky blue?" i >mean, >i >can tell you *how/by what process* it is that the sky is blue, but i don't >see any *why/wherefore/for what reason/towards what goal* involved >with >the >sky's coloration. any multilingual types out there know if there are >languages where "why" and "how" don't get easily mixed up? i know some >arabic, and it seems just as confusable, therein. > >chris cunningham _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Nov 27 09:50:31 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 27 Nov 2002 11:50:31 -0600 Subject: Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: <20021127173435.21558.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20021127173435.21558.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Erik Dahl writes: > David Dyer-Bennet (>) and I (>>) wrote: > > >> This year I'm brining the turkey again, because osmosis is a wonderful > >> thing. If you've never soaked the bird in such a solution, I heartily > >> recommend it. It keeps it moist throughout the long cooking time and > >> adds incredible flavor. > > > Is this the politically correct alternative to injecting it with > > broth? > > I don't know about "politically correct," and I've never injected a turkey with > broth, but my instinct is that injection wouldn't work as well, because it > would puncture the skin, allowing juices to seep out during cooking, and it > would be very hit-and-miss between the parts that were flavored and those that > weren't. I'm thinking of the fuss people make about commercial frozen turkeys being brine-injected. > Basically, by immersing the turkey in a salty solution for many hours, the > water in the meat and the water in the bucket want to reach equilibrium, so the > salty water gets sucked into the turkey, bringing all the flavors in with it. > Then they get trapped there. Yep. Pretty clearly the same idea. (Mind you, I'm not using this to diss brining the turkey; more to diss whinging about broth injection.) > Here's the brine I'm using (taken directly from Alton Brown's Good Eats): > > 1 cup kosher salt (has more flavor, but regular salt will work) > 1/2 cup light brown sugar > 1 gallon vegetable stock > 1 tablespoon black peppercorns > 1/2 tablespoon allspice berries > 1/2 tablespoon candied ginger > > Combine all these in a stockpot and bring to a boil. Stir to dissolve, then > remove from heat, cool to room temperature, then refrigerate until thoroughly > chilled. At least six hours before roasting, combine the brine and one gallon > of iced water in an unused 5-gallon bucket, place the thawed turket breast side > down in it, cover, and set it in a cool area. Turn the turkey once. All looks very reasonable and hopeful. > The recipe goes on to talk about roasting it with aromatics (an apple, an > onion, and cinnamon) in the cavity instead of stuffing, since the stuffing can > dry out the bird and doesn't contribute as much to the flavor. Basting is also > discouraged, since opening the oven a lot lengthens the cooking time and all > the flavor should already be inside the skin. You can find the recipe at > http://www.foodtv.com/foodtv/recipe/0,6255,8865,00.html. Ooh. Lost me on the stuffing bit. The purpose of the turkey is largely to provide flavor to the stuffing, which is the centerpiece of the meal. It's mere coincidence that I actually like the turkey. > > Pumpkin pie and mince pie for dessert. > > Mmmm. Pumpkin pie is the norm for us, but we thought we'd try the cheesecake > this year. I'm reconsidering now, though. :) > > > Cranberry sauce, check; I'm fairly interested in all sorts of different > > cranberry sauces and relishes. > > You might be interested in trying a cranberry dipping sauce, like this one: > > http://www.foodtv.com/foodtv/recipe/0,6255,6953,00.html > > My family seems to prefer having it in a communal dish and slathering it on > everything on the plate itself, but it seems like an efficient idea for > applying cranberry to the meat to me. Intereting. I'll keep that idea in mind (I'm just the broccoli this year, Matt is the cranberry sauce). But I'm doing the turkey for Christmas I think, so I may try the brining. > > Gravy, not for me. Potatoes, not for me (in a meal with > > stuffing in it). Sweet potatoes, traditional, but not important to > > me. > > I think I'd be impaled on my own electric knife if I tried to remove the > potatoes or gravy from the menu. :) Most electric knives I've seen have pretty blunt points, so that doesn't sound *that* dangerous. > > And a good dry white wine. That's crucial. Or two, or three. > > Alas, my parents-in-law, if they are not teetotalers, are disinterested in > alcohol. We'll have a lot of sparkling apple cider, instead. But what wines do > you favor? Turkey dinners are one of the things I think a chardonnay, even a fairly big one, really does go with. But we've also used fairly dry rieslings some years. The big surprise and good result, though, was something that I haven't seen available for years, namely a well-made, dry, white zinfandel. Not this modern sweet blush nonsense. Back before the white zin became pop wine, several companies made good ones. Sebastiani had one called "Eye of the Swan". It was wonderful with turkey. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Nov 27 09:51:10 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 09:51:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Domino's Lute Message-ID: <200211271751.gARHp5u29765@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > (Sorry, woke up in a stranger mood than usual...okay I'll stop now before my > boss fires me :P) Bah. Just tell him you know someone who does "work".... Chris From rone at ennui.org Wed Nov 27 10:02:23 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 10:02:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: from David Dyer-Bennet at "Nov 27, 2002 11:35:46 am" Message-ID: <20021127180223.A1A0D26E2B@boredom.ennui.org> David Dyer-Bennet writes: And, unlike god, there aren't people questioning the very existence of emacs. If emacs did not exist, it would be necessary to invent it? rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From pgranzeau at cox.net Wed Nov 27 08:36:04 2002 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:36:04 -0500 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: <011301c29564$7a27eba0$2b20d118@neo.rr.com> References: <000501c29544$5a938fd0$0101a8c0@realityeed26l1> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20021127113438.01d9a5c0@pop.east.cox.net> At 10:57 11/26/2002 -0500, chris cunningham wrote: >"inconceivable!" I thought that meant "unable to have children"? Or was that "unbearable"? Or "impregnable"? -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From pgranzeau at cox.net Wed Nov 27 09:05:36 2002 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 12:05:36 -0500 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <20021126232430.81265.qmail@web13709.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20021127115956.01d905f0@pop.east.cox.net> At 15:24 11/26/2002 -0800, Erik Dahl wrote: >I find this recent trend towards defining atheism as a religion of non-belief >very disconcerting. Instead of maintaining that atheism is "belief in no god," >or "belief there is no god," can't we say instead that it is "no belief in >god?" For me, at any rate, it is more about not believing in something than >believing in something opposed to something else. > >I'm aiming for accuracy of the term; I don't wish to offend anyone. Someone once said that Madalyn Murray O'Hare, the noted atheist activist, in fact believed in God, she just had an argument with Him. I went hunting once for a word to describe lack of belief in any Deity (including active non-belief in a Deith) and failed miserably. I always wondered if "infidel" fit? It's got a lot of baggage, unfortunately. We need something that not only says "there is no God", but says, "and I don't care if there is one or not". -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From pgranzeau at cox.net Wed Nov 27 10:21:44 2002 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:21:44 -0500 Subject: Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: <1537F4F8-01A1-11D7-8222-00039386187A@adelphia.net> References: <3DE413A3.4000504@attbi.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20021127131646.01db55b0@pop.east.cox.net> At 19:42 11/26/2002 -0500, Chris Turkel wrote: >Ewwwwwwwwwww Thats one thing in life I had, besides Liver and that's >Tabasco sauce. Time for my liver story, I guess. My mothr served liver once a month for 35 or so years, regular as clockwork. No onions, as both she and my father couldn't eat onions. Anyway, one day, there was a sale on liver, so my mother bought extra, and served it again after about a week. My father (who seldome commented on the food) asked "Aren't we having a lot of liver lately?" My mother exclaimed, "Why! I thought you _liked_ liver>" "Not especially," my father replied. It turned out that Mom personally hated liver, and only served it because she thought Dad liked it, and had been doing so for 35 years. Needless to say, they never had liver again. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From sraun at fireopal.org Wed Nov 27 10:30:34 2002 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 12:30:34 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20021127115956.01d905f0@pop.east.cox.net> References: <20021126232430.81265.qmail@web13709.mail.yahoo.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20021127115956.01d905f0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <20021127183033.GC12143@fireopal.org> On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 12:05:36PM -0500, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > I went hunting once for a word to describe lack of belief in any Deity > (including active non-belief in a Deith) and failed miserably. I always > wondered if "infidel" fit? It's got a lot of baggage, unfortunately. We > need something that not only says "there is no God", but says, "and I don't > care if there is one or not". How about agnostic? Trimming from the www.dictionary.com definition: : One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a : God. : : One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess : true atheism. My favorite definition of agnostic is 'I don't know and I don't care'. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org From electrictwilight at hotmail.com Wed Nov 27 10:31:58 2002 From: electrictwilight at hotmail.com (H. T.) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 18:31:58 +0000 Subject: Domino's Lute Message-ID: >From: Chris Olson - SunPS >Reply-To: Chris Olson - SunPS >To: dragaera at dragaera.info, electrictwilight at hotmail.com >Subject: Re: Domino's Lute >Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 09:51:10 -0800 (PST) > >Bah. Just tell him you know someone who does "work".... > > >Chris hummm, better not, he may make an attempt to "tickle my toes" in an effort to persuade me to persuade this someone to allow him to represent this someone when this someone is questioned under the "orb" -- as at one time or another probably happens with all that do "work". And then, I would just have to go to "papa" and while following the "rules of court" ask the chief to capture my boss and interrogate my boss and then place him on the "hook"... and then... well, I would be out of a job... and this would not be not a good thing, and what type of Bokononist would I be then? Well, I suppose I would be "busy busy busy". _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Nov 27 10:42:27 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 27 Nov 2002 12:42:27 -0600 Subject: Liver In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20021127131646.01db55b0@pop.east.cox.net> References: <3DE413A3.4000504@attbi.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20021127131646.01db55b0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: "Peter H. Granzeau" writes: > At 19:42 11/26/2002 -0500, Chris Turkel wrote: > > > > Ewwwwwwwwwww Thats one thing in life I had, besides Liver and that's > > Tabasco sauce. > > Time for my liver story, I guess. My mothr served liver once a month > for 35 or so years, regular as clockwork. No onions, as both she and > my father couldn't eat onions. Anyway, one day, there was a sale on > liver, so my mother bought extra, and served it again after about a > week. My father (who seldome commented on the food) asked "Aren't we > having a lot of liver lately?" My mother exclaimed, "Why! I thought > you _liked_ liver>" "Not especially," my father replied. > > It turned out that Mom personally hated liver, and only served it > because she thought Dad liked it, and had been doing so for 35 years. > > Needless to say, they never had liver again. The worst "liver night" story I know: -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Nov 27 10:43:23 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 27 Nov 2002 12:43:23 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <20021127180223.A1A0D26E2B@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20021127180223.A1A0D26E2B@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) writes: > David Dyer-Bennet writes: > And, unlike god, there aren't people questioning the very existence of > emacs. > > If emacs did not exist, it would be necessary to invent it? Apparently. Note how, historically, it appeared on all sorts of systems that the original just couldn't be ported to. Gosling's emacs. And of course JOVE. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Nov 27 10:45:14 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 27 Nov 2002 12:45:14 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20021127115956.01d905f0@pop.east.cox.net> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20021127115956.01d905f0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: "Peter H. Granzeau" writes: > At 15:24 11/26/2002 -0800, Erik Dahl wrote: > >I find this recent trend towards defining atheism as a religion of non-belief > >very disconcerting. Instead of maintaining that atheism is "belief in no god," > >or "belief there is no god," can't we say instead that it is "no belief in > >god?" For me, at any rate, it is more about not believing in something than > >believing in something opposed to something else. > > > >I'm aiming for accuracy of the term; I don't wish to offend anyone. > > Someone once said that Madalyn Murray O'Hare, the noted atheist > activist, in fact believed in God, she just had an argument with Him. > > I went hunting once for a word to describe lack of belief in any Deity > (including active non-belief in a Deith) and failed miserably. I > always wondered if "infidel" fit? It's got a lot of baggage, > unfortunately. We need something that not only says "there is no > God", but says, "and I don't care if there is one or not". We don't need that combination *for me*. Anybody who doesn't *care* if a being with the characteristics asserted for the Great Sky Father exists is -- well, a long way from me, anyway. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From loki at twwol.dyndns.org Wed Nov 27 10:48:17 2002 From: loki at twwol.dyndns.org (Loki) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:48:17 -0400 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11/27/02 1:37 PM, "David Dyer-Bennet" wrote: > I'm not saying it's isn't conceivable, or believable, that there would > be religion. Just that I thought there wouldn't be. Actually, that I > *hoped* there wouldn't be, because religion makes the world a worse > place. So you think that religions should only appear in dystopic books, then? ;) -- Oonh: 100% Fake. No reality added. Reality is so gosh-smarmy dill. Dillhood is just dripping. Oh wait. I can't be one hundred percent fake, because there is a realm of more fakeness by not admitting it. --- Oonh From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Wed Nov 27 10:57:50 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 10:57:50 -0800 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20021127115956.01d905f0@pop.east.cox.net> References: <20021126232430.81265.qmail@web13709.mail.yahoo.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20021127115956.01d905f0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <20021127185750.GA8994@ofb.net> On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 12:05:36PM -0500, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > I went hunting once for a word to describe lack of belief in any Deity > (including active non-belief in a Deith) and failed miserably. I always "godless" > need something that not only says "there is no God", but says, "and I don't > care if there is one or not". "apatheist" While I understand David's denial of a lack of interest in the matter, it's also nice to be able to say "go away, I don't care". A Gordian knot approach. After all, a Great Sky Father who doesn't _do anything_ needn't be of that much concern, really. And if He did something noticeable, then we wouldn't be arguing over His existence... -xx- Damien X-) From bertowud at gator.net Wed Nov 27 10:59:55 2002 From: bertowud at gator.net (Robert Wood) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:59:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Liver In-Reply-To: References: <3DE413A3.4000504@attbi.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20021127131646.01db55b0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <57760.209.208.44.34.1038423595.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> > The worst "liver night" story I know: > > -- > David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ Worst? That has to be the most horribly depressing liver story I've ever heard...or read as the case may be. Especially since I like liver. Robert From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Nov 27 11:03:56 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:03:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: <200211271903.gARJ3pu17627@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > My favorite definition of agnostic is 'I don't know and I don't care'. I've always liked the term my ex gave me: Militant Agnostic: "I don't know, and YOU DON'T EITHER!" Chris From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Nov 27 11:03:59 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 27 Nov 2002 13:03:59 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Loki writes: > On 11/27/02 1:37 PM, "David Dyer-Bennet" wrote: > > > I'm not saying it's isn't conceivable, or believable, that there would > > be religion. Just that I thought there wouldn't be. Actually, that I > > *hoped* there wouldn't be, because religion makes the world a worse > > place. > > So you think that religions should only appear in dystopic books, then? ;) Or fantasy, of course. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From chrislee at neo.rr.com Wed Nov 27 11:33:40 2002 From: chrislee at neo.rr.com (chris cunningham) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:33:40 -0500 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com><15843.46891.246035.618358@gw.dd-b.net> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com><3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> Message-ID: <020201c2964b$e3e5d880$2b20d118@neo.rr.com> From: "David Dyer-Bennet" > And, unlike god, there aren't people questioning the very existence of > emacs. god is questioning the existence of emacs? man, he *is* out of the loop :) chris cunningham From rsuitor at cjwrfs.net Wed Nov 27 11:44:21 2002 From: rsuitor at cjwrfs.net (Richard Suitor) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:44:21 -0500 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:53:05 -0600, "Gametech" wrote: >It looks like semantics to me because all I can see from the >definitions of religion is that is does in fact have to do with a >higher being or spiritual belief vs. a logistical belief. I'm OK with "higher being or spiritual belief". My points: 1. No-one can get through life on just logical belief (I'm used to thinking of logistics as involving supply, so allow me to switch terms - I don't think I'm changing your meaning.) 2. There is a big difference from person to person on where the limit of logical belief lies, and it is nice if the two people have a basis for talking to each other. Thus I think that there is more than semantics involved - that it is necessary for those who find logical consequences more easily to realize that they are asking those who do not to believe what they say in a way similar to the way proponents of faith do. I doubt that this list comprises a representative sample of this particular human parameter of awareness of and ability to draw logical consequences. :<) But furthermore, I observe many people who can reason just fine, thank you, and are not agitating for creationism, nonetheless feel the need for a spiritual life. That is another reason, to return to the original topic I addressed, why I think any future with our descendants will include religions. They may not look much like today's religions, but they will involve less-than-rational belief systems that nonetheless survive because they have been shown to work in some important fashion. Richard From seanp at ea.com Wed Nov 27 11:46:02 2002 From: seanp at ea.com (Penney, Sean) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:46:02 -0800 Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F59546@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Damien Sullivan wrote: On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 12:05:36PM -0500, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: >> I went hunting once for a word to describe lack of belief in any Deity >> (including active non-belief in a Deith) and failed miserably. I always >"godless" >> need something that not only says "there is no God", but says, "and I don't >> care if there is one or not". >"apatheist" >While I understand David's denial of a lack of interest in the matter, it's >also nice to be able to say "go away, I don't care". A Gordian knot approach. >After all, a Great Sky Father who doesn't _do anything_ needn't be of that >much concern, really. And if He did something noticeable, then we wouldn't be >arguing over His existence... I think one of my main problems with modern religions, esp. those of "The Book" (ie: those with a history of non-tolerance in the form of crusades/jihads and inquisitions) is the idea of a male creator. It seems like such an obvious co-opting of power from the myriad female fertility gods of antiquity. The vengeful desert god of the Old Testament seems logical - male, unrelenting and without mercy, whereas the god of the new law, the New Testament, seems to have the qualities of those earlier feminine gods. It's like a rival broadcasting company contriving a white Oprah. A forgiving male god will appeal to a larger audience, and more importantly, an audience that holds most of the power in the world. And Jesus laid the smackdown when necessary - exactly what you want in a ruler - justice and strength to free the oppressed, and mercy for the masses. So while I cannot prove that there is or is not a god, I can look at the evolution of Christianity (what happened to all those folks who went to Hell for eating meat on Sundays(?) now that it is no longer an imperil-your-soul sin?) and see how it responded to the needs of the time, and think to myself, wow, good PR, excellent timing - who's in charge of this company? How do I buy stock? From adina at panix.com Wed Nov 27 11:48:24 2002 From: adina at panix.com (Adina Adler) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:48:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: (message from David Dyer-Bennet on 27 Nov 2002 11:50:31 -0600) References: <20021127173435.21558.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200211271948.gARJmOQ14698@panix3.panix.com> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > >Erik Dahl writes: > >> David Dyer-Bennet (>) and I (>>) wrote: >> >> >> This year I'm brining the turkey again, because osmosis is a wonderful >> >> thing. If you've never soaked the bird in such a solution, I heartily >> >> recommend it. It keeps it moist throughout the long cooking time and >> >> adds incredible flavor. >> >> > Is this the politically correct alternative to injecting it with >> > broth? >> >> I don't know about "politically correct," and I've never injected a turkey with >> broth, but my instinct is that injection wouldn't work as well, because it >> would puncture the skin, allowing juices to seep out during cooking, and it >> would be very hit-and-miss between the parts that were flavored and those that >> weren't. > >I'm thinking of the fuss people make about commercial frozen turkeys >being brine-injected. One of the articles I read said that if you can't find the time to brine a turkey, one of those pre-injected things might actually work better than one that isn't. I don't remember where I saw that, though. > >> Basically, by immersing the turkey in a salty solution for many hours, the >> water in the meat and the water in the bucket want to reach equilibrium, so the >> salty water gets sucked into the turkey, bringing all the flavors in with it. >> Then they get trapped there. > >Yep. Pretty clearly the same idea. (Mind you, I'm not using this to >diss brining the turkey; more to diss whinging about broth injection.) > >> Here's the brine I'm using (taken directly from Alton Brown's Good Eats): >> >> 1 cup kosher salt (has more flavor, but regular salt will work) WARNING: Kosher salt and regular salt are very different and you can't substitute them one-for-one. Kosher salt is preferred by a lot of chefs because it dissolves more readily and doesn't have any additives. I believe that regular salt is "saltier" than kosher salt and therefore you'd want to use less of it, but unfortunately my books are all at home and I can't find anything useful on-line. >> 1/2 cup light brown sugar >> 1 gallon vegetable stock >> 1 tablespoon black peppercorns >> 1/2 tablespoon allspice berries >> 1/2 tablespoon candied ginger >> >> Combine all these in a stockpot and bring to a boil. That's interesting. I've brined chickens before using kosher salt and white sugar dissolved in water, and I never had to boil the mixture ahead of time. As I said above, kosher salt dissolves really quickly. There are lots of recipes that call for many spices besides salt and sugar, but I've also seen articles saying that the additions don't really do much more for the flavor. What I've noticed after brining poultry is that it ends up being moister and a little saltier all through. The brined turkey had the most tender white meat I've ever experienced. [rest of brine recipe snipped] > >All looks very reasonable and hopeful. > >> The recipe goes on to talk about roasting it with aromatics (an apple, an >> onion, and cinnamon) in the cavity instead of stuffing, since the stuffing can >> dry out the bird and doesn't contribute as much to the flavor. Basting is also >> discouraged, since opening the oven a lot lengthens the cooking time and all >> the flavor should already be inside the skin. You can find the recipe at >> http://www.foodtv.com/foodtv/recipe/0,6255,8865,00.html. > >Ooh. Lost me on the stuffing bit. The purpose of the turkey is >largely to provide flavor to the stuffing, which is the centerpiece of >the meal. It's mere coincidence that I actually like the turkey. I'm with David on this one. Also, my mother's traditional stuffing has large quantities of chopped carrot, onion, and celery, so that probably does contribute to the bird's flavor. You might be interested in a book called _The Perfect Recipe_. It doesn't have a lot of recipes, but each one is accompanied by a long article discussing all of the alternatives that the author tried before deciding that she'd found the perfect way of making roast turkey (or meatloaf, or chicken soup). Everything from there that I've tried has been superb. -- Adina From rick at 404.978.org Wed Nov 27 11:48:31 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:48:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Pattern matching In-Reply-To: <200211271700.gARH06u19376@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200211271700.gARH06u19376@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <2807.192.168.1.1.1038426511.squirrel@404.978.org> Chris Olson - SunPS said: >> Very very good at it, to the point it can generate false positives. >> Think "Face of Jesus in a tortilla" . >> >> That's not a false positive, unless you happen to think a tortilla >> that looks like Jesus is a miracle. > > Hey! I've never been on a tortilla!! > > (Uh... Sorry. I see the "J" word, and it's a force of > habit to look up and say "What?"...) > > Chris (Who got to be crucified on stage!!) You played the big J in Jesus Christ Superstar? (/me was one of the Apostles in a Central CA theatre production of the same.) ;) -Rick From feaelin at kemenel.org Wed Nov 27 12:01:34 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:01:34 -0600 Subject: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Damien Sullivan [mailto:phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, 2002 November 26 23:39 > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: A question re: Begining Fantacy for Youth > There's also a dim, dim, memory of Dr. Doolittle. Dr. Doolittle rules! I read every volume of Hugh Lofting's series that I could get my hands on. Which reminds me, I should put his books on my wishlist. :) I saw a few months ago at an acquaintance's house "an updated" version. Normally I don't like "updated/cleaned up" versions, but the in the foreward the editors of the new version discussed their intentions and goals, and I was impressed by the integerity they intended, in terms of making an effort to retain as much of Hugh Lofting's words as possible, while carefully changing the "political sensitive" portions. I would have liked to read it and see how well they did (as well as possibly comparing to the original), but there wasn't time for that at the time, and I don't possess a copy of my own (of either version). Hmm. Searching for it on the web turned up the entire text at: http://www.pagebypagebooks.com/Hugh_Lofting/The_Story_of_Doctor_Dolittle /index.html From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Nov 27 12:11:13 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 12:11:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pattern matching Message-ID: <200211272011.gARKB8u28221@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > > Chris (Who got to be crucified on stage!!) > > You played the big J in Jesus Christ Superstar? > > (/me was one of the Apostles in a Central CA theatre > production of the same.) ;) Yep! And I got the pictures to prove it! (They also let me keep my loincloth and crown of thorns, which are up in my room. And I claim to be an agnostic!!) LOL. Irony, thy name is Chris... Where in Central CA? My production was in May of this year, in the Bay Area. It was fun!! (And so, so terribly wrong. But hey, I know why they cast me; I look far too much the part when I grow some facial hair...:) As a semi-topical aside: Have you read Christopher Moore's book "Lamb - The Gospels According to Biff, Christs' Childhood Pal"? It's hysterical, and VERY good... "What should we give the dumbf**ks?" "How about a fruit basket?" (JC and Biff, writing the Sermon on the Mount speach...:) Chris (Who had WAY too much fun with that show...;) From rick at 404.978.org Wed Nov 27 12:16:33 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:16:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Pattern matching In-Reply-To: <200211272011.gARKB8u28221@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200211272011.gARKB8u28221@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <2908.192.168.1.1.1038428193.squirrel@404.978.org> Chris Olson - SunPS said: >> > Chris (Who got to be crucified on stage!!) >> >> You played the big J in Jesus Christ Superstar? >> >> (/me was one of the Apostles in a Central CA theatre >> production of the same.) ;) > > Yep! And I got the pictures to prove it! (They also > let me keep my loincloth and crown of thorns, which are > up in my room. And I claim to be an agnostic!!) LOL. > Irony, thy name is Chris... Likewise, I fall into the agnostic camp... damn fun show, though. > Where in Central CA? My production was in May of this > year, in the Bay Area. It was fun!! (And so, so terribly > wrong. But hey, I know why they cast me; I look far too much > the part when I grow some facial hair...:) I was in San Luis Obispo, and probably back in 1997 or so. JCS was nearly as fun as West Side Story, but the leaping and fighting bit puts WSS over the top. ;) > As a semi-topical aside: Have you read Christopher Moore's > book "Lamb - The Gospels According to Biff, Christs' Childhood > Pal"? It's hysterical, and VERY good... Never... gotta add it to the list. -Rick From rick at 404.978.org Wed Nov 27 12:38:39 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:38:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. In-Reply-To: <20021127183033.GC12143@fireopal.org> References: <20021126232430.81265.qmail@web13709.mail.yahoo.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20021127115956.01d905f0@pop.east.cox.net> <20021127183033.GC12143@fireopal.org> Message-ID: <2955.192.168.1.1.1038429519.squirrel@404.978.org> Scott Raun said: > On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 12:05:36PM -0500, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: >> I went hunting once for a word to describe lack of belief in any Deity >> (including active non-belief in a Deith) and failed miserably. I >> always wondered if "infidel" fit? It's got a lot of baggage, >> unfortunately. We need something that not only says "there is no >> God", but says, "and I don't care if there is one or not". > > How about agnostic? > > Trimming from the www.dictionary.com definition: > > : One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a : > God. > : > : One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess : > true atheism. > > My favorite definition of agnostic is 'I don't know and I don't care'. These are two different meanings, and do not track. One is a merely logical statement: I do not and cannot with existing evidence know if there is a being matching current agreed-upon definitions of God. The other is making a value judgement: If there were a being matching God, I would not care about it. Not the same, and though the second may be an opinion of SOME agnostics, it is NOT part of the definition of agnostic. I am agnostic, but I'll tell you now that if the available evidence DID change, and it could be PROVEN that there is a being matching one of the many descriptions of God, I would be VERY interested to learn more about it, and ask a hell of a lot of questions. I might get squashed for my impudence, but I'd certainly TRY to get some answers to some interesting questions. :) I don't know many well-balanced atheists that wouldn't swallow their pride and assess new evidence, not to mention at least be curious about such a being... even if only to attempt to disprove it. To not care, in my opinion, is something I'd call childish, but that'd be incorrect. Even a child would be curious. -Rick From lydy at demesne.com Wed Nov 27 12:45:49 2002 From: lydy at demesne.com (Lydia Nickerson) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:45:49 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: References: <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <15843.46891.246035.618358@gw.dd-b.net> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> At 11:35 AM 11/27/02 -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >books at bofh.com writes: > > I also do not believe that DDB is not religious. I will offer > > as inflamatory examples requests for discussions on the following > > subjects by him: > > > > 1) List headers should have the list address set as reply-to > > 2) Vi is better than Emacs > > 3) Ksh is the best shell > > 4) Sendmail is clearly superior to qmail > > 5) HTML is necessary for effective email communications > > ... > > These are clearly religious issues. :) > >Not in the sense we're discussing. There are solid, real-world, >observable, measurable, reasons for preferences among the things on >those lists. Actually, what's going on is that you have certain immovable opinions based on those observable, measurable facts, not quite the same thing. Speaking of religion which ought, at some time, to include sin and leading one into temptation and all that, combined with DDB's firmly held opinions: I've just discovered that my email client at work is not configured the way I have it configured at home. i.e. I haven't been paying attention. I've you've received an email from me on this thread, it was intended to go to the list, not to be sent privately. You are free to forward it to the list if you like, or not. If you want to argue about it on-list, though, please do forward it, because I don't have copies and am unlikely to remember what I said. Lydia Nickerson lydy at demesne.com Dulciculi Aliquorum From rick at 404.978.org Wed Nov 27 12:46:44 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:46:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: References: <20021127173435.21558.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2974.192.168.1.1.1038430004.squirrel@404.978.org> David Dyer-Bennet said: >> Erik Dahl writes: >> The recipe goes on to talk about roasting it with aromatics (an apple, >> an onion, and cinnamon) in the cavity instead of stuffing, since the >> stuffing can dry out the bird and doesn't contribute as much to the >> flavor. Basting is also discouraged, since opening the oven a lot >> lengthens the cooking time and all the flavor should already be inside >> the skin. You can find the recipe at >> http://www.foodtv.com/foodtv/recipe/0,6255,8865,00.html. > > Ooh. Lost me on the stuffing bit. The purpose of the turkey is > largely to provide flavor to the stuffing, which is the centerpiece of > the meal. It's mere coincidence that I actually like the turkey. You don't have to skip the stuffing, just cook it separately outside the bird. Spoon turkey drippings and gravy over it. You still get the excellent taste of turkey with the stuffing, without forcing either a longer cooking time for the bird, causing it to dry out, or keeping the turkey juicy, but with inside bits undercooked because the stuffing kept the core temp too low. Dry turkey is almost as bad as the stomach bug you'll get from undercooked turkey. -Rick From lydy at demesne.com Wed Nov 27 12:58:34 2002 From: lydy at demesne.com (Lydia Nickerson) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:58:34 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20021127115956.01d905f0@pop.east.cox.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20021127115956.01d905f0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144923.00a4e8e0@dd-b.net> At 12:45 PM 11/27/02 -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >We don't need that combination *for me*. Anybody who doesn't *care* >if a being with the characteristics asserted for the Great Sky Father >exists is -- well, a long way from me, anyway. Given the vast array of religions in the world, it shouldn't be too surprising that atheists and agnostics come in flavors, also. There's active, passive, and apathetic atheists, for instance. The active ones proselytize on the topic, and build arguments attempting to do something intensely silly, that is, to prove a negative. (Don't go there. It hurts when you go there.) "Passive" atheists may also proselytize, but they concentrate on knocking down arguments attempting to prove that God exists, they don't try to find His non-existence in the universe. Intellectually honest ones would acknowledge a God, should someone ever manage to present them with proof of same. The apathetic ones don't care, but their world-view is largely informed by the assumption that there's no god. Agnostics are a little different, I guess. I'm an active agnostic. I don't know, and you don't either. In fact, the nature of the problem is such that no answer can ever be found. Or perhaps I should say, no answer can be proved or verified. I know what I know, but I can't share that experiential knowledge with you. Passive agnostics don't know, and are content to not know. Apathetic ones really just don't care, but don't mind going to church every now and again, just to hedge their bets. Ok, this isn't a complete, or even accurate taxonomy of atheists and agnostics. However, I'm getting awfully tired of being told what I believe. As much as a Presbyterian might get tired of being told that only those fully immersed at baptism were sure to be saved. Lydia Nickerson lydy at demesne.com Dulciculi Aliquorum From rick at 404.978.org Wed Nov 27 12:58:15 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:58:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: <200211271948.gARJmOQ14698@panix3.panix.com> References: <20021127173435.21558.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com> <200211271948.gARJmOQ14698@panix3.panix.com> Message-ID: <3012.192.168.1.1.1038430695.squirrel@404.978.org> Adina Adler said: >>> 1 cup kosher salt (has more flavor, but regular salt will work) > > WARNING: Kosher salt and regular salt are very different and you can't > substitute them one-for-one. Kosher salt is preferred by a lot of > chefs because it dissolves more readily and doesn't have any > additives. I believe that regular salt is "saltier" than kosher salt and > therefore you'd want to use less of it, but unfortunately my books are > all at home and I can't find anything useful on-line. You need to use less table salt than kosher salt not so much because of any difference in "saltiness", but because kosher salt's larger granule size means there're more air in your measuring cup. If a recipe specifies table salt, use 1.5 times the specified amount of kosher salt. (according to a number of FoodTV chefs) > That's interesting. I've brined chickens before using kosher salt and > white sugar dissolved in water, and I never had to boil the mixture > ahead of time. As I said above, kosher salt dissolves really quickly. > There are lots of recipes that call for many spices besides salt and > sugar, but I've also seen articles saying that the additions don't > really do much more for the flavor. What I've noticed after brining > poultry is that it ends up being moister and a little saltier all > through. The brined turkey had the most tender white meat I've ever > experienced. You boil all the spices for the same reason you boil a pickling brine. Boiling it "cracks open" the spice kernels (especially peppercorns) and releases more of their flavor into the brine, and in turn, into the meat as the brine moves into the bird. >>Ooh. Lost me on the stuffing bit. The purpose of the turkey is >>largely to provide flavor to the stuffing, which is the centerpiece of >> the meal. It's mere coincidence that I actually like the turkey. > > I'm with David on this one. Also, my mother's traditional stuffing has > large quantities of chopped carrot, onion, and celery, so that > probably does contribute to the bird's flavor. > > You might be interested in a book called _The Perfect Recipe_. It > doesn't have a lot of recipes, but each one is accompanied by a long > article discussing all of the alternatives that the author tried > before deciding that she'd found the perfect way of making roast > turkey (or meatloaf, or chicken soup). Everything from there that I've > tried has been superb. See previous post. You can still make tasty stuffing while cooking it outside the bird, getting the best of both worlds. -Rick From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Wed Nov 27 13:02:34 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:02:34 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: <200211271903.gARJ3pu17627@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: >> My favorite definition of agnostic is 'I don't know and I don't >> care'. > > I've always liked the term my ex gave me: Militant Agnostic: > "I don't know, and YOU DON'T EITHER!" > > > Chris Heh I really like that, it made me smile instead of scowl like most of the thread has made me. From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Nov 27 13:05:12 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 27 Nov 2002 15:05:12 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> References: <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <15843.46891.246035.618358@gw.dd-b.net> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> Message-ID: Lydia Nickerson writes: > At 11:35 AM 11/27/02 -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > >books at bofh.com writes: > > > I also do not believe that DDB is not religious. I will offer > > > as inflamatory examples requests for discussions on the following > > > subjects by him: > > > > > > 1) List headers should have the list address set as reply-to > > > 2) Vi is better than Emacs > > > 3) Ksh is the best shell > > > 4) Sendmail is clearly superior to qmail > > > 5) HTML is necessary for effective email communications > > > ... > > > These are clearly religious issues. :) > > > >Not in the sense we're discussing. There are solid, real-world, > >observable, measurable, reasons for preferences among the things on > >those lists. > > Actually, what's going on is that you have certain immovable opinions > based on those observable, measurable facts, not quite the same thing. You do understand that that's a top-level nasty accusation in my world, right? Notice that, even in responding to the poke here in the list, I didn't actually claim that the evidence was overwhelming and only an idiot could disagree. > Speaking of religion which ought, at some time, to include sin and > leading one into temptation and all that, combined with DDB's firmly > held opinions: > > I've just discovered that my email client at work is not configured > the way I have it configured at home. i.e. I haven't been paying > attention. I've you've received an email from me on this thread, it > was intended to go to the list, not to be sent privately. You are > free to forward it to the list if you like, or not. If you want to > argue about it on-list, though, please do forward it, because I don't > have copies and am unlikely to remember what I said. Hmmm; I think I still have it, if so I'll forward it to the list. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Nov 27 13:07:12 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 27 Nov 2002 15:07:12 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: References: <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <15843.46891.246035.618358@gw.dd-b.net> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> Message-ID: David Dyer-Bennet writes: > Lydia Nickerson writes: > > I've just discovered that my email client at work is not configured > > the way I have it configured at home. i.e. I haven't been paying > > attention. I've you've received an email from me on this thread, it > > was intended to go to the list, not to be sent privately. You are > > free to forward it to the list if you like, or not. If you want to > > argue about it on-list, though, please do forward it, because I don't > > have copies and am unlikely to remember what I said. > > Hmmm; I think I still have it, if so I'll forward it to the list. Having looked, while I got a private copy of one message, the headers show it *was* sent to the list, and in fact it got there. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Nov 27 13:09:31 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 27 Nov 2002 15:09:31 -0600 Subject: Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: <3012.192.168.1.1.1038430695.squirrel@404.978.org> References: <20021127173435.21558.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com> <200211271948.gARJmOQ14698@panix3.panix.com> <3012.192.168.1.1.1038430695.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: "Rick Castello" writes: > See previous post. You can still make tasty stuffing while > cooking it outside the bird, getting the best of both worlds. I'm fairly good at that (better than my mother, for example), but it's not in the same league as stuffing cooked in the bird, still. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Nov 27 13:09:56 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:09:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. Message-ID: <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > I might get squashed for my impudence, but I'd certainly TRY > to get some answers to some interesting questions. :) Heh. This reminded me of a discussion I had with a religious friend of mine. He was talking about God being infallible, and I made mention that, if God were to be proven real, I'd STILL want him to take responsability for the actions of his creations. Yep, I'm most certainly impudent. And irreverent. I'll burn for eternity before I back down from my own views of right and wrong... (Of course, if I'm shown I'm wrong, and I believe it, I'm willing to change my mind about my own views...;) Chris "So farewell hope, and with hope, farewell fear, Farewell remorse! All good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my Good" - John Milton - 'Paradise Lost' From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Nov 27 13:10:22 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 27 Nov 2002 15:10:22 -0600 Subject: Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: <2974.192.168.1.1.1038430004.squirrel@404.978.org> References: <20021127173435.21558.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com> <2974.192.168.1.1.1038430004.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: "Rick Castello" writes: > David Dyer-Bennet said: > >> Erik Dahl writes: > >> The recipe goes on to talk about roasting it with aromatics (an apple, > >> an onion, and cinnamon) in the cavity instead of stuffing, since the > >> stuffing can dry out the bird and doesn't contribute as much to the > >> flavor. Basting is also discouraged, since opening the oven a lot > >> lengthens the cooking time and all the flavor should already be inside > >> the skin. You can find the recipe at > >> http://www.foodtv.com/foodtv/recipe/0,6255,8865,00.html. > > > > Ooh. Lost me on the stuffing bit. The purpose of the turkey is > > largely to provide flavor to the stuffing, which is the centerpiece of > > the meal. It's mere coincidence that I actually like the turkey. > > You don't have to skip the stuffing, just cook it separately > outside the bird. Spoon turkey drippings and gravy over it. Gravy is an abomination, and will not sully my plate. > You still get the excellent taste of turkey with the stuffing, > without forcing either a longer cooking time for the bird, > causing it to dry out, or keeping the turkey juicy, but with > inside bits undercooked because the stuffing kept the core temp > too low. > > Dry turkey is almost as bad as the stomach bug you'll get from > undercooked turkey. Never had a bug from undercooked turkey, anyway. We always cook the turkey slowly, overnight, which helps keep it from drying out. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Wed Nov 27 13:12:52 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:12:52 -0600 Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. References: <20021126232430.81265.qmail@web13709.mail.yahoo.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20021127115956.01d905f0@pop.east.cox.net> <20021127183033.GC12143@fireopal.org> <2955.192.168.1.1.1038429519.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: Rick Castello wrote: > Scott Raun said: >> On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 12:05:36PM -0500, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: >>> I went hunting once for a word to describe lack of belief in any >>> Deity (including active non-belief in a Deith) and failed >>> miserably. I always wondered if "infidel" fit? It's got a lot of >>> baggage, unfortunately. We need something that not only says >>> "there is no God", but says, "and I don't care if there is one or >>> not". >> >> How about agnostic? >> >> Trimming from the www.dictionary.com definition: >> >>> One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a : God. >>> >>> One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not >>> profess : true atheism. >> >> My favorite definition of agnostic is 'I don't know and I don't >> care'. > > These are two different meanings, and do not track. > > One is a merely logical statement: > I do not and cannot with existing evidence know if there is > a being matching current agreed-upon definitions of God. > > The other is making a value judgement: > If there were a being matching God, I would not care about it. > > Not the same, and though the second may be an opinion of SOME > agnostics, it is NOT part of the definition of agnostic. > > > I am agnostic, but I'll tell you now that if the available > evidence DID change, and it could be PROVEN that there is a > being matching one of the many descriptions of God, I would > be VERY interested to learn more about it, and ask a hell of > a lot of questions. > > I might get squashed for my impudence, but I'd certainly TRY > to get some answers to some interesting questions. :) > > I don't know many well-balanced atheists that wouldn't swallow > their pride and assess new evidence, not to mention at least > be curious about such a being... even if only to attempt to > disprove it. > > To not care, in my opinion, is something I'd call childish, > but that'd be incorrect. Even a child would be curious. > > -Rick I think the word imprudent fits. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Nov 27 13:13:42 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:13:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: <200211272113.gARLDbu06188@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > > I've always liked the term my ex gave me: Militant Agnostic: > > "I don't know, and YOU DON'T EITHER!" > > > > > > Chris > > Heh I really like that, it made me smile instead of scowl like most of the > thread has made me. Uh... heh. Which part? Chris From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Nov 27 13:15:09 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 27 Nov 2002 15:15:09 -0600 Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. In-Reply-To: <2955.192.168.1.1.1038429519.squirrel@404.978.org> References: <20021126232430.81265.qmail@web13709.mail.yahoo.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20021127115956.01d905f0@pop.east.cox.net> <20021127183033.GC12143@fireopal.org> <2955.192.168.1.1.1038429519.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: "Rick Castello" writes: > These are two different meanings, and do not track. > > One is a merely logical statement: > I do not and cannot with existing evidence know if there is > a being matching current agreed-upon definitions of God. > > The other is making a value judgement: > If there were a being matching God, I would not care about it. > > Not the same, and though the second may be an opinion of SOME > agnostics, it is NOT part of the definition of agnostic. In fact, given that the definition of god normally in play when agnosticism is under discussion is the great sky-father, I'd go so far as to say it's *insane* to not care if there were a being matching those characteristics. Those characteristics include "his slightest whim defines moral rightness" and "he'll torment you forever in hell if you don't do things his way" and "he's omniscient, so you can't fool him or hide from him". Anybody who chooses to ignore that is completely nutso. > I am agnostic, but I'll tell you now that if the available > evidence DID change, and it could be PROVEN that there is a > being matching one of the many descriptions of God, I would > be VERY interested to learn more about it, and ask a hell of > a lot of questions. > > I might get squashed for my impudence, but I'd certainly TRY > to get some answers to some interesting questions. :) > > I don't know many well-balanced atheists that wouldn't swallow > their pride and assess new evidence, not to mention at least > be curious about such a being... even if only to attempt to > disprove it. > > To not care, in my opinion, is something I'd call childish, > but that'd be incorrect. Even a child would be curious. That's the way it feels to me, yes. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From lydy at demesne.com Wed Nov 27 13:19:19 2002 From: lydy at demesne.com (Lydia Nickerson) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:19:19 -0800 Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: <20021127211919.GA21810@ofb.net> At 09:01 PM 11/26/02 -0800, you wrote: >On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 04:01:32PM -0800, Erik Dahl wrote: > >> To complicate this further, I'll mention that for some reason your post >struck >> me to wonder at the etymological relationship between "theism" and >"atheism," >> and "gnosticism" and "agnosticism." Based on my limited understanding of >> gnosticism, I don't see the connection. :) > >gnosis in general is "knowledge"; Tolkien mapped his Noldor Elves to the >Gnomes once -- the wise ones. a-gnosticism here is related to claiming a >lack >of knowledge, or denying the possibility of knowledge, depending on your >flavor of agnosticism. Not to be confused with Gnosticism, the mystics >around >the time of Christ who discovered secret mysteries aren't a good way to have >your religion survive. :) I would describe myself as a theoretical atheist and a militant agnostic. I don't know that there is no god, but the universe sure seems to tick on just fine without him, and I don't see any holes that need to be plugged by a supernatural being. Occam's Razor being sharp enough for me, I don't see any reason to believe in an external god. Gnosis, now, I do believe in. Heck, it's happened to me. The experiential portion of religion, the shaft of grace or the Voice of God or the sudden washing away of sins, these things do happen to people. However, since they are experiential, there's really no good way to judge from the outside what is going on. Is it just a momentary psychotic break, or a brief brush with the Infinite? I decline to evaluate these experiences, though, because I have insufficient information. I don't think that they can prove that God exists to anyone except, perhaps, the person who experiences it. (And sometimes not even then. I've had my own experience standing on the mountain top, yelling at God, and having him answer. I still don't believe in him. And no, I don't think it was schizophrenia or psychosis, either.) So, I'm a militant agnostic. I don't know, and neither do you. I can't know what happened to you, and you can't know what happened to me, therefore there is no proof available one way or the other. There's only personal experience. If I experience a baseball hitting me in the head, I can show you the baseball, I can throw it at you and hit you in the head, we can share this physical thing called a baseball and come to some agreements about it. It's a real world object. But if you are seeing green where I am seeing blue, and we both call it blue, how would we ever find out? Lydia Nickerson lydy at demesne.com Dulciculi Aliquorum From lydy at demesne.com Wed Nov 27 13:19:47 2002 From: lydy at demesne.com (Lydia Nickerson) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:19:47 -0600 Subject: Domino's Lute In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126145741.0271ed90@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021127151136.00a789b0@dd-b.net> At 09:34 PM 11/26/02 -0400, Loki wrote: >Perhaps this: A systematic set of spiritual beliefs? Of course, that still >rules out atheism, as atheism is not a set of beliefs, but a single >supposition. Religion has to be systematized, I guess. I would lump religion and individual spirituality into one category for this discussion. I tend to use the word religion to mean "the belief in the Invisible world." Not a belief in the unknown, but rather the unknowable. Every kind of superstition, UFOs, psychics, all the belief systems that fail under scientific scrutiny, or cannot be subjected to scientific verification. Visions, flying through the air, foretelling the future, cursing one's enemies, the list is long, indeed, and I haven't even touched on the "normal" religions. Me, I've indulged in any number of these, but I don't believe them. I just fail to disbelieve a number of them. As a militant agnostic, I'm a bit fuzzy around the edges. Lydia Nickerson lydy at demesne.com Dulciculi Aliquorum From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Nov 27 13:20:44 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:20:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. Message-ID: <200211272120.gARLKdu07065@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > In fact, given that the definition of god normally in play when > agnosticism is under discussion is the great sky-father, I'd go so far > as to say it's *insane* to not care if there were a being matching > those characteristics. Those characteristics include "his slightest > whim defines moral rightness" and "he'll torment you forever in hell > if you don't do things his way" and "he's omniscient, so you can't > fool him or hide from him". Anybody who chooses to ignore that is > completely nutso. Yes, but if all my friends are going to hell anyway, I'd be bored if I went to heaven!! (Except that I heard that you could smoke in heaven. Apparantly, that's why it's called Heaven. Hell is Non-Smoking...;) Chris (quoting, in part, Bill Hicks) From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Wed Nov 27 13:21:08 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:21:08 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: <200211272113.gARLDbu06188@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: >>> I've always liked the term my ex gave me: Militant Agnostic: >>> >>> >>> Chris >> >> Heh I really like that, it made me smile instead of scowl like most >> of the thread has made me. > > Uh... heh. Which part? > > Chris >>> "I don't know, and YOU DON'T EITHER!" that part ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ From casey at trinityhartford.org Wed Nov 27 13:23:57 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 16:23:57 -0500 Subject: Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: <200211271948.gARJmOQ14698@panix3.panix.com> Message-ID: Adina Adler wrote: > You might be interested in a book called _The Perfect Recipe_. It > doesn't have a lot of recipes, but each one is accompanied by a long > article discussing all of the alternatives that the author tried > before deciding that she'd found the perfect way of making roast > turkey (or meatloaf, or chicken soup). Everything from there that I've > tried has been superb. Mmm. Yes this book is excellent. I'm more a reader of cook books than a great cook, but everything I've done from her recipe's was great. I'd also recommend The Man Who Ate Everything. Great books for working up an appetite. Not that I need any help! Casey From rick at 404.978.org Wed Nov 27 13:33:34 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 16:33:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. In-Reply-To: References: <20021126232430.81265.qmail@web13709.mail.yahoo.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20021127115956.01d905f0@pop.east.cox.net> <20021127183033.GC12143@fireopal.org> <2955.192.168.1.1.1038429519.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: <3304.192.168.1.1.1038432814.squirrel@404.978.org> Gametech said: > Rick Castello wrote: >> I am agnostic, but I'll tell you now that if the available >> evidence DID change, and it could be PROVEN that there is a being >> matching one of the many descriptions of God, I would be VERY >> interested to learn more about it, and ask a hell of a lot of >> questions. >> >> I might get squashed for my impudence, but I'd certainly TRY to >> get some answers to some interesting questions. :) > > I think the word imprudent fits. Perhaps, if you believe in an Old Testament God who'd squash me for simply having the gall to ASK a question. I said what I meant, and I meant what I said... (an elephant's faithful, one hundred percent!) Imprudent: Unwise or indiscreet; not prudent. Impudent: Characterized by offensive boldness; insolent or impertinent. If I asked my question rudely, my impudence would be my undoing; it is my rudeness that would be imprudent. -Rick From lydy at demesne.com Wed Nov 27 13:42:03 2002 From: lydy at demesne.com (Lydia Nickerson) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:42:03 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <15843.46891.246035.618358@gw.dd-b.net> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021127153459.00a5b510@dd-b.net> At 03:05 PM 11/27/02 -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >Lydia Nickerson writes: > > > At 11:35 AM 11/27/02 -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > >books at bofh.com writes: > > > > I also do not believe that DDB is not religious. I will offer > > > > as inflamatory examples requests for discussions on the following > > > > subjects by him: > > > > > > > > 1) List headers should have the list address set as reply-to > > > > 2) Vi is better than Emacs > > > > 3) Ksh is the best shell > > > > 4) Sendmail is clearly superior to qmail > > > > 5) HTML is necessary for effective email communications > > > > ... > > > > These are clearly religious issues. :) > > > > > >Not in the sense we're discussing. There are solid, real-world, > > >observable, measurable, reasons for preferences among the things on > > >those lists. > > > > Actually, what's going on is that you have certain immovable opinions > > based on those observable, measurable facts, not quite the same thing. > >You do understand that that's a top-level nasty accusation in my >world, right? Notice that, even in responding to the poke here in the >list, I didn't actually claim that the evidence was overwhelming and >only an idiot could disagree. I'm, um, agnostic on the topic of the configuration of email lists, due to vast ignorance on the topic. I have never seen anyone argue with you about the facts of what configurations do what, but I have certainly seen many people, some of them quite reasonable and experienced, argue with you about what configuration to use based on those facts, from which I draw the conclusion that one can draw more than one conclusion from the data, depending on what the list master prefers in terms of traffic to the list, embarrassment to the list members, ease of use for list members, and probably lots of other arguments I don't remember. You're making choices based on some facts and some variables and some preferences, which looks to me an awful lot like an opinion. I don't see why opinion should be a dirty word. We all have them, and the more they're based on real world observations and rational evaluations, the better off we all are. Lydia Nickerson lydy at demesne.com Dulciculi Aliquorum From davids at kithrup.com Wed Nov 27 13:48:55 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:48:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [Changing the subject line, because the topic has not been about anybody's lute for a while] [although it would be ironic if we went off on a tangent about lute music all of a sudden. :-) ] [or could it be said that the entire thread of this religious argument could be set to music, complete with recurring themes, humorous grace notes, and sudden dischordant clashes? ] On Wed, 27 Nov 2002, Richard Suitor wrote: > >But furthermore, I observe many people who can reason just fine, thank >you, and are not agitating for creationism, nonetheless feel the need >for a spiritual life. That is another reason, to return to the >original topic I addressed, why I think any future with our >descendants will include religions. They may not look much like >today's religions, but they will involve less-than-rational belief >systems that nonetheless survive because they have been shown to work >in some important fashion. > After pondering this for quite a bit, I think I agree with this. As long as humans are biological entities, they're going to have sex, listen to music, read fiction, cook food (although I hope that in the future they no longer need to kill animals in order to get the flavors & textures they want for their recipies, but that's fuel for another flamewar :-) ), have hobbies like model trains & orchid collecting - and follow *some* sort of spiritual practice. Of course, it won't be everyone who does so, just as most people today don't collect orchids or re-enact Civil War battles, and some are not that interested in music, or don't read for pleasure, or don't have sex. But that's just because people's brains are wired differently. When religious people say "Don't you feel you're *missing* something by not {accepting Jesus as your savior | submitting to Allah | praying to the Goddess in the nude}", they're talking about some feeling that satisfies something in their minds like nothing else. Which is fine for *them*, but I think it will eventually be shown that it's all just brain chemistry. The first steps in that direction were taken some years back. Doing a web search on "God Module", I turn up the following: http://www.parascope.com/articles/slips/fs22_3.htm As noted, we can't draw any firm conclusions from this discovery *yet*. But I think it's just a matter of time, now that we know where to start looking. We can perform double-blind, multi-trial prayer experiments, and prove, one way or another, what correlation the prayer has on the subject prayed for. If it's shown that the feelings have no affect on external reality; that they're just another type of positive emotion, what other conclusion can be drawn other than them being the cause of religious belief, with nothing to do with external reality? As long as no-one oppresses anyone else because of those spiritual beliefs, and no one is coerced into it, why should it disappear or be forced to disappear? Although perhaps since the traditional religions have had a history of coercion and oppression, it would be a Good Thing if *those traits* of traditional religions disappeared. There will always be unanswered questions for those religious feelings to focus on. Even if it is proven, for example, that the cosmology of the universe is a looped 4D structure in the hyperdimensional supercosmic foam, it could always be asked, "Well, what *caused* that structure to form? What create the hyperdimensional supercosmic foam in the first place?" There's always another level up (as it were) that the Prime Mover or the Moral Authority or the First Cause can be pushed. Naturally, the more hard-headed and rationalistic will see no point in positing further levels "up" when a satisfactory answer exists at the current level - but that's the way *their* brains are wired. From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Wed Nov 27 13:50:47 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:50:47 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: <200211271903.gARJ3pu17627@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <3DE53E37.4040108@attbi.com> ...and then there's my favorite definition of a lapsed Roman Catholic: "There is no God, and Mary is His mother." Mia From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Nov 27 14:05:29 2002 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:05:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: <200211272205.gARM5Pu13183@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > ...and then there's my favorite definition of a lapsed Roman Catholic: > > "There is no God, and Mary is His mother." LOL. Now THAT is funny!!! Thanks for sharing that one, Mia!! Chris From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Wed Nov 27 14:06:31 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 16:06:31 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: <200211261847.gAQIlTAB043480@realtime.exit.com> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127140051.00ab6aa0@dd-b.net> Message-ID: <3DE541E7.3020700@attbi.com> Lydia wrote, and I hereby forward: At 02:20 PM 11/26/02 -0600, you (Mia) wrote: Frank, Since there is no *belief* involved in atheism, that means you've *proven* that there is no god? Neat trick if you can do it. You can't prove a negative. That's a basic tenet of logic. What, you don't think logic can be used? That means this discussion has to veer off into the relative, irrational, and the invisible -- exactly the ground that materialists don't believe in. It's obviously to the advantage of theists to try to move the argument there, but not very convincing. At the moment, I don't believe in small furry creatures >from Alpha Centauri, but show me one with sufficient bona fides, and I certainly will. Haul me up a God from out of the deep, with sufficient bona fides, and I'll believe in him, too. I'm quite catholic, that way. Lydia Nickerson lydy at demesne.com Dulciculi Aliquorum ...the relative, irrational, and the invisible -- exactly the ground that materialists don't believe in. Yeah, but it's still *there*, isn't it? The differences in our feelings, perceptions and personalities exist, whether they are material or explicable or quantifiable or not. DDB would probably argue that they are entirely the result of neurochemical activity in our brains, and that if they difffer sharply from the norm, we will someday be able to "correct" them. He would then remove from my personality the flaw that makes me feel supported by the love of God. Maybe, but he's speculating. He would say I'm speculating, too. No, I can't pick God up in my hands and bring him to you. And, I can't say; "At precisely 6:00 this evening, God will prove that he exists by writing "peace on earth" in the sky." I have experience of God that is entirely subjective, immaterial, and illogical, and I find it quite convincing. There's a famous quote that says "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." DDB has his own faith--similar to Asimov or Roddenberry, he seems to believe in the future of humankind, ever evolving toward something wiser and more rational. I find his faith quite as repellent as he finds mine. As to whose hopes will be rewarded, we just don't know yet, do we? Mia From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Nov 27 14:30:55 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 16:30:55 -0600 Subject: Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: References: <20021127173435.21558.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com> <2974.192.168.1.1.1038430004.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: <20021127223055.GA4346@infodancer.org> On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 03:10:22PM -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Never had a bug from undercooked turkey, anyway. > We always cook the turkey slowly, overnight, which helps keep it from > drying out. I've had success with a honey glaze. Nothing fancy -- just coat the turkey with honey (optionally add a light coating of spices over the honey) before inserting into the oven. It hardens under the heat, locking the juices into the bird, and providing a little extra flavor for the skin. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From den at monger.net Wed Nov 27 14:29:49 2002 From: den at monger.net (Dennis Higbee) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:29:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <3DE53E37.4040108@attbi.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Nov 2002, Mia McDavid wrote: > ...and then there's my favorite definition of a lapsed Roman Catholic: > > "There is no God, and Mary is His mother." Heh. I like that. But instead of "lapsed," I like to say "Recovering Catholic." -Dennis (who practices Catholicism, because he isn't very good at it) From den at monger.net Wed Nov 27 14:33:03 2002 From: den at monger.net (Dennis Higbee) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:33:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. In-Reply-To: <2955.192.168.1.1.1038429519.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Nov 2002, Rick Castello wrote: > Scott Raun said: > > My favorite definition of agnostic is 'I don't know and I don't care'. > These are two different meanings, and do not track. > > One is a merely logical statement: > I do not and cannot with existing evidence know if there is > a being matching current agreed-upon definitions of God. > > The other is making a value judgement: > If there were a being matching God, I would not care about it. > > Not the same, and though the second may be an opinion of SOME > agnostics, it is NOT part of the definition of agnostic. They're put in the same sentence because they are connected statements. "I do not and cannot with existing evidence know if there is a being matching current agreed-upon definitions of God. Given that this is the case, I have no interest in pursuing the question." At least that's how I read the above statement. -Dennis From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Nov 27 14:37:12 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 16:37:12 -0600 Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. In-Reply-To: <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <20021127223712.GB4346@infodancer.org> On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 01:09:56PM -0800, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > I might get squashed for my impudence, but I'd certainly TRY > > to get some answers to some interesting questions. :) > Heh. This reminded me of a discussion I had with > a religious friend of mine. He was talking about > God being infallible, and I made mention that, if > God were to be proven real, I'd STILL want him to > take responsability for the actions of his creations. While I agree with the sentiment that God has a lot of hard questions to answer, taking responsibility for his creations is not on the same level. Are you responsible for the actions of your children once they reach adulthood and attain free will? -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Nov 27 15:04:03 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 27 Nov 2002 17:04:03 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021127153459.00a5b510@dd-b.net> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <15843.46891.246035.618358@gw.dd-b.net> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127153459.00a5b510@dd-b.net> Message-ID: Lydia Nickerson writes: > At 03:05 PM 11/27/02 -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > >Lydia Nickerson writes: > > > > > At 11:35 AM 11/27/02 -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > > >books at bofh.com writes: > > > > > I also do not believe that DDB is not religious. I will offer > > > > > as inflamatory examples requests for discussions on the following > > > > > subjects by him: > > > > > > > > > > 1) List headers should have the list address set as reply-to > > > > > 2) Vi is better than Emacs > > > > > 3) Ksh is the best shell > > > > > 4) Sendmail is clearly superior to qmail > > > > > 5) HTML is necessary for effective email communications > > > > > ... > > > > > These are clearly religious issues. :) > > > > > > > >Not in the sense we're discussing. There are solid, real-world, > > > >observable, measurable, reasons for preferences among the things on > > > >those lists. > > > > > > Actually, what's going on is that you have certain immovable opinions > > > based on those observable, measurable facts, not quite the same thing. > > > >You do understand that that's a top-level nasty accusation in my > >world, right? Notice that, even in responding to the poke here in the > >list, I didn't actually claim that the evidence was overwhelming and > >only an idiot could disagree. > > > I'm, um, agnostic on the topic of the configuration of email lists, > due to vast ignorance on the topic. I have never seen anyone argue > with you about the facts of what configurations do what, but I have > certainly seen many people, some of them quite reasonable and > experienced, argue with you about what configuration to use based on > those facts, from which I draw the conclusion that one can draw more > than one conclusion from the data, depending on what the list master > prefers in terms of traffic to the list, embarrassment to the list > members, ease of use for list members, and probably lots of other > arguments I don't remember. You're making choices based on some facts > and some variables and some preferences, which looks to me an awful > lot like an opinion. I don't see why opinion should be a dirty word. > We all have them, and the more they're based on real world > observations and rational evaluations, the better off we all are. It's the word "immovable" that I'm taking issue with. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Nov 27 15:06:34 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 27 Nov 2002 17:06:34 -0600 Subject: Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: <20021127223055.GA4346@infodancer.org> References: <20021127173435.21558.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com> <2974.192.168.1.1.1038430004.squirrel@404.978.org> <20021127223055.GA4346@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Matthew Hunter writes: > On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 03:10:22PM -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > Never had a bug from undercooked turkey, anyway. > > We always cook the turkey slowly, overnight, which helps keep it from > > drying out. > > I've had success with a honey glaze. Nothing fancy -- just coat > the turkey with honey (optionally add a light coating of > spices over the honey) before inserting into the oven. It > hardens under the heat, locking the juices into the bird, and > providing a little extra flavor for the skin. I did a cranberry glaze one year. It was fun, but I find I don't eat turkey skin anyway (it's too heavy). -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Nov 27 15:08:43 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 27 Nov 2002 17:08:43 -0600 Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. In-Reply-To: <200211272120.gARLKdu07065@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200211272120.gARLKdu07065@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: Chris Olson - SunPS writes: > > In fact, given that the definition of god normally in play when > > agnosticism is under discussion is the great sky-father, I'd go so far > > as to say it's *insane* to not care if there were a being matching > > those characteristics. Those characteristics include "his slightest > > whim defines moral rightness" and "he'll torment you forever in hell > > if you don't do things his way" and "he's omniscient, so you can't > > fool him or hide from him". Anybody who chooses to ignore that is > > completely nutso. > > Yes, but if all my friends are going to hell anyway, > I'd be bored if I went to heaven!! Nah, it's okay, you'll have new friends. > (Except that I heard that you could smoke in heaven. Apparantly, > that's why it's called Heaven. Hell is Non-Smoking...;) Better ventilation? -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Nov 27 15:14:11 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 27 Nov 2002 17:14:11 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <3DE541E7.3020700@attbi.com> References: <200211261847.gAQIlTAB043480@realtime.exit.com> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127140051.00ab6aa0@dd-b.net> <3DE541E7.3020700@attbi.com> Message-ID: Mia McDavid writes: > Yeah, but it's still *there*, isn't it? The differences in our > feelings, perceptions and personalities exist, whether they are > material or explicable or quantifiable or not. DDB would probably > argue that they are entirely the result of neurochemical activity in > our brains, and that if they difffer sharply from the norm, we will > someday be able to "correct" them. He would then remove from my > personality the flaw that makes me feel supported by the love of God. > > Maybe, but he's speculating. He would say I'm speculating, too. No, > I can't pick God up in my hands and bring him to you. And, I can't > say; "At precisely 6:00 this evening, God will prove that he exists by > writing "peace on earth" in the sky." I have experience of God that > is entirely subjective, immaterial, and illogical, and I find it quite > convincing. Sure, but we know quite a lot now about where such feelings come from. Brain chemistry gone wrong, basically. > There's a famous quote that says "Faith is the substance of things > hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." DDB has his own > faith--similar to Asimov or Roddenberry, he seems to believe in the > future of humankind, ever evolving toward something wiser and more > rational. I find his faith quite as repellent as he finds mine. As > to whose hopes will be rewarded, we just don't know yet, do we? I have no such faith, sorry. I have *hope*, a very different thing. Faith, for me, is one of the dirtiest of dirty words. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From electrictwilight at hotmail.com Wed Nov 27 15:15:38 2002 From: electrictwilight at hotmail.com (H. T.) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 23:15:38 +0000 Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: >From: David Silberstein >To: Draegara List >Subject: The Religion Debate >Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:48:55 -0800 (PST) > >[Changing the subject line, because the topic has not been about >anybody's lute for a while] [although it would be ironic if we went >off on a tangent about lute music all of a sudden. :-) ] See, I think one of the problems (or virtues pending on how you look at it) with this list -- and why these "tangents" have started--is that some here can be as literal and asinine as me. (Oh, and that everyone needs something to bide their time until PoD arrives in their local bookstores). So without further adieu, I ask, is this what you were thinking? (P.S. I made sure it's in tablature form since it was established sometime yesterday that not everyone can read score) Johann Sebastian Bach Suites for Lute Sarabande (BMV 997) 1 | . | . | . E|-5-----------7h9-7------\5-------4-------5-------| B|-5-----------------------------------------------| G|-5---------------7------\5-------4-------5-------| D|-------------------------------------------------| A|-0---------------0---------------0---------------| E|-------------------------------------------------| 2 | . | . | . E|-------------------------------------------------| B|-3-----------------------------------------------| G|-4-----------------------------------------------| D|-3-----------------------------------------------| A|-0-----------2h3-2-------0---------------0-------| E|---------------------------------4---------------| 3 | . | . | . | . | . | . E|-----0---7-----5-4-------|-------------------------| B|-3-6---3-3---------6-5---|-----------------1-3/5-6-| G|-4---------------------7-|-5-4-5-4-2---2-4---------| D|-3-------6---------------|-----------2-------------| A|---------0-------0-------|-0-----------------------| E|-4-----------------------|-------------------------| 5 | . | . | . | . | . | . E|-------------------------|-------4-5-------------4-| B|-8-5---------------------|---2-3-------------3-1---| G|-----6-----3-2-0-2-0-----|-------------------------| D|-----5---------------3-2-|-3---------3-2-0-2-------| A|-0-------0-------0-------|-0-------0-------0-------| E|-------------------------|-------------------------| 7 | . | . | . | . | . | . E|-5---------------------2-|-------------------------| B|---------------1---------|-1-------0---------------| G|-------------2---4-1-2---|-2-------1---------------| D|---2\1---1-4-------------|-1-------2---0-----------| A|-0-----4-0-------0-------|-----------------3---2---| E|-------------------------|-0-----------------------| _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From rsuitor at cjwrfs.net Wed Nov 27 15:21:17 2002 From: rsuitor at cjwrfs.net (Richard Suitor) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 18:21:17 -0500 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6akauus64qa0f20ab25mockeur6bjgvmnh@4ax.com> On Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:48:55 -0800 (PST), David Silberstein wrote: >The first steps in that direction were taken some years back. Doing a >web search on "God Module", I turn up the following: > > http://www.parascope.com/articles/slips/fs22_3.htm heh. Had missed that. Very interesting. Good post. Note, however, that were we to genetically or otherwise remove what we think this to be, I'd still hold out for the existence of religions - but they might indeed be a good deal less spiritual than they are today ;<) and thus might not pass muster for those who require "religion" to apply to more spiritual belief systems than I do. People seem to get just as passionate over economic, political and even some scientific theories as they do religion. Maybe they wouldn't without that region of the brain. I wonder if we'd survive that? Richard From davids at kithrup.com Wed Nov 27 15:26:02 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:26:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <3DE45C8C.2010902@networkharmoni.com.au> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Nov 2002, Andrew Bailey wrote: > >"If Gods existance was proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt , tomorrow, >how would that affect you?" > Well, I guess my response would be "What sort of god, and what sort of proof?" I wonder if part of the problem is how "god" should be defined? In examining my own feelings on the matter, I have come to realize that I personally feel outraged and angered by the idea that the biblical God literally exists, and wants our obedience, love and worship, and will judge us after we die. Positing that that God does exist, I'd say that we owe him respect for his power and artistic vision, and perhaps even some measure of gratitude if he really does have the well-being of all of creation in mind. But that's *it*. Obedience, to a moral code that is blatantly unfair; a list of rules that he refuses to update or explain? No. Love, for a completely absent parent that randomly distibutes blessings and catastrophes? No. *Worship*? No *way*. [1] Judge us? Well, I can't stop it if it's true, but I can deny that he has the moral authority to do so based on his own actions as recorded in the Bible/Quran. But I've noticed that even people who are devout monotheists have different takes on what God *is*. Some seem to feel that God is the spirit of Universal Compassion/Unconditional Love, or Universal Justice, or the Creative Force, or the Primal Lawgiver, or the Angry and Avenging Spirit, or the Universe itself (or some or all of the above combined). Other religions posit different entities for the above different roles. And I personally would feel less strongly about, say, proof that the universe has an external creator, with no other attributes assumed as part of the proof. So what exactly is proved to exist, and what form does that proof take? [1] I originally wrote "*Hell*, no.", but I figured that might provoke a snarky response. :-) From rick at 404.978.org Wed Nov 27 15:25:43 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 18:25:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3824.192.168.1.1.1038439543.squirrel@404.978.org> >>[Changing the subject line, because the topic has not been about >>anybody's lute for a while] [although it would be ironic if we went off >> on a tangent about lute music all of a sudden. :-) ] Heh. Haven't looked at lute tablature since the A.I. movie web game (The Beast). Sentient machine therapist, indeed. -Rick From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Wed Nov 27 15:28:57 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 17:28:57 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: Message-ID: <3DE55539.3030207@attbi.com> Hey, Bach tablature! I gotta try this! Mia From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Nov 27 15:55:22 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 27 Nov 2002 17:55:22 -0600 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David Silberstein writes: > On Wed, 27 Nov 2002, Andrew Bailey wrote: > > > > >"If Gods existance was proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt , tomorrow, > >how would that affect you?" > > > > Well, I guess my response would be "What sort of god, and what sort of > proof?" A proof "beyond a shadow of a doubt". That is, you aren't allowed to argue about that part. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Nov 27 16:01:32 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 16:01:32 -0800 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <3DE45C8C.2010902@networkharmoni.com.au> References: <200211270513.gAR5DKKi046537@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126225129.0278a0a0@localhost> At 01:47 PM 11/27/2002 +0800, Andrew Bailey wrote: >"If Gods existance was proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt , tomorrow, how >would that affect you?" Eh. Not in the least. I mean, I already know that god exists. It's just that god has no existence in dependant of man's belief. God is an idea, and the idea exists, and even moves people to take actions (some of them laudable, many of them horrid). From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Nov 27 16:15:56 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 16:15:56 -0800 Subject: Domino's Lute In-Reply-To: <15844.494.844242.742191@hagbard.io.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126145741.0271ed90@localhost> <114.1b2e0f75.2b152960@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20021126145741.0271ed90@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021127161413.0277b830@localhost> At 05:21 PM 11/26/2002 -0600, Joshua Kronengold wrote: >Steven Brust writes: > >It is certainly possible to define religion that way. It even makes a > >certain amount of sense. But then we're left with needing a word that > >means, belief in and reverence for a superhuman power. > >I think that's "'holy other'-style religon". There are lots of >existing, self-proclaimed religons that don't have belief or reverence >for a superhuman power -- Zen (the universal counterexample, and >usually mixed up with a lot of superstitions that -do- have >supernatural powers attached, but nevertheless); confucianism, and >discordianism don't, certainly. Discordianism I'm not familiar with. To cliam that Zen and Confucianism don't have belief or reverence for a superhuman being is only possible for those who know nothing about them. Until someone comes up with a better term, I'll stick with the dictionary definition. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Nov 27 16:20:30 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 16:20:30 -0800 Subject: Domino's Lute In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126145741.0271ed90@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021127161835.025aacd0@localhost> At 09:34 PM 11/26/2002 -0400, Loki wrote: >On 11/26/02 7:03 PM, "Steven Brust" wrote: > > > At 02:45 PM 11/26/2002 -0500, Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > >> Dennis wrote: Atheism is not a religion, but there are people who may > make it > >> into one. > >> > >> Atheists believe there is no God. Religion is a belief. By answering the > >> question 'Do you believe in God' you are professing your religeous > beliefs. > >> The only way to be non-religeous is to not even acknowledge the question. > > > > It is certainly possible to define religion that way. It even makes a > > certain amount of sense. But then we're left with needing a word that > > means, belief in and reverence for a superhuman power. Right now we have a > > perfectly good word for that: religion. If you want religion to mean > > something else, please supply me with a word that means what we now mean by > > religion, so we can talk about it. > >Buddhism's a religion. However, there's no belief in or reverence for any >superhuman powers in it. Rubbish. Anyone who has even studied Japanese karate knows that there is belief in, and certainly reverence for, superhuman powers in Buddhism. Indeed, Buddhism, more than any other region that comes to mind, is all *about* supernatural powers, revering them, and how to get them for yourself. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Nov 27 16:22:29 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 16:22:29 -0800 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126141008.02583540@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021127162147.025ab2b0@localhost> At 07:40 PM 11/26/2002 -0500, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Steven Brust wrote: > >#Man's religious beliefs have changed over the millennia. In my opinion, an >#examination of these changes would lead to the conclusion that the gods >#have been shrinking. Those areas where the supernatural is required for >#understanding have gotten smaller and smaller. The idea that they might >#vanish entirely in the not-to-distant future doesn't seem farfetched to me. > >Let's not make the mistake of judging universally by the sample most >familiar to us. I don't think the overall level of religious belief in >the world is anywhere near as low as the level among my friends and >acquaintances. Both of the above sentences are true. Neither denies my claim, to which I still hold. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Nov 27 16:23:45 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 16:23:45 -0800 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: References: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F5953A@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021127162303.025adaa0@localhost> At 07:49 PM 11/26/2002 -0500, Mark A Mandel wrote: > >Before we get started in on name-calling in earnest, let's just check >somewhere, like the American Heritage Dictionary, 4th edition, s.v. >"religion": American Heritage Dictionary! I *knew* you were mind kind of people! From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Nov 27 16:26:54 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 16:26:54 -0800 Subject: Domino's Lute In-Reply-To: <3DE406C5.3040908@attbi.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126145741.0271ed90@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021127162437.025ace60@localhost> At 05:41 PM 11/26/2002 -0600, Mia McDavid wrote: >The term I use is 'belief' and 'believer.' I tend to dislike 'religious' >because it is often identified with outward show and trappings as opposed >to really trying to walk the walk. > >Of course, I contend that an atheist "believes" in the absence of God >(unlike a blue sky, not easily provable). So, we're no farther forrader, >are we? 'Faith' and 'faithful', same problem. DDB expresses great faith >in his atheistic worldview. > >What about 'mystic?' What we're really looking for, I think, is the >antonym to 'materialist.' Actually, the antonym to materialist is idealist. It revolves around the question: Can an idea exist before there is a brain to think it? God is an idea. Theists believe that God exists independently of man--that is, even if no one believed, there would still be a god. From calianng_graves at yahoo.com Wed Nov 27 16:48:53 2002 From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 16:48:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021128004853.23192.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> Upon reflection of this thread, I find myself personally offended by the idea of an omniscient, omnipotent, eternal creator that, for some odd, divine reason, suffers from severe insecurity and low self-esteem in that He constantly needs the praises of His creations to know that He is "good". I praise my dog. I praise my cat. I praise my children. All of these are creatures that require praise in order to develop suitable mannerisms for life in my home. Yet I also have trouble with deism. The idea that some supernatural creator made our entire Universe....then abandoned it. That begs the visual of a small child who, bored of his new pet, neglects and discards it in favor of more fascinating toys. Militant agnosticism? I don't know and YOU DON'T EITHER! (Borrowed from Merlin, thank you dear) Mathmaticians and physicists can mathamatically trace the the expansion of the cosmos back to the "Big Bang". The difficulty there is when they get to Time = 0. At that point, something, someone or some force outside our laws of physics had to make the first push. In other words, something outside of our cosmos had to start the ball rolling. (The previous paragraph is based on discussions I had some years ago with a group of mathmatics professors. New information MAY have come to light since then. If so, please politely inform me of it and don't jump down my throat, okay?) Psychologically, most humans have a hardwired need for some form of religion and/or spirituality. (If you are interested in the specific studies on this, e-mail me off list and I'll send you the full bibliography) This need that is shared by most of humanity begs the evolutionary question: What racial survival necessity was/is filled by religion/spirituality? Some have said that religion itself is shrinking. I have to disagree. I concede that membership of the MAJOR religions is shrinking, but that is in favor of smaller, gentler belief systems. Christianity, Islam and Judaism are shrinking exponentially as people turn to Buddhism, Paganism and Kabbalism. Mysticism and meditative religions are growing while the rigid, older systems are loosing their followers. This is NOT a new thing, as it has been repeated throughout history in different cultures. I do not think that religion itself is what most people object to....I think it is the religions that they feel are forced upon them. Most of the people I speak with do not object to the idea of God (or Goddess), they object to the idea of Hell...or worse, of Heavan where one spends eternity singing "Hosanna" over and over again. ( Okay, someone remind me, WHICH place am I supposed to be aspiring to? The eternity of screams and Hellfire....or the eternity of musical boredom?) Peace, Caliann *Owned and Operated by the Grand Poohbah Cheese of the Universe* "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Wed Nov 27 16:58:32 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 18:58:32 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126141008.02583540@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20021127162147.025ab2b0@localhost> Message-ID: <3DE56A38.6030507@attbi.com> SKBZ says that the gods are shrinking. Maybe so, but look at it the other way. God is growing. There used to be a sun god and an earth god and a thunder god, etc. etc. Each god had his/her own little niche in ordering the world. Now we have God, creator of the galaxies, who yet numbers the hairs on our heads. I agree, our understanding of the Divine has changed, and will undoubtedly continue to change. Though I am a practicing Christian, I am not prepared to declaim that our understanding of God is fixed forevermore. Still believe He/She is out there, though. Mia From spiderman92 at attbi.com Wed Nov 27 17:01:17 2002 From: spiderman92 at attbi.com (Sunny Han) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 19:01:17 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: <200211270513.gAR5DKKi046537@realtime.exit.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20021126225129.0278a0a0@localhost> Message-ID: <001301c29679$a8260b70$f4892942@SUNNY1> like in this one TV version of Merlin that i watched.... the lady of the lake says, after a long time, after Merlin has been gone for a while that is, that she's fading away because noone believes in her anymore... i thought about that one for a long time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Brust" To: "Andrew Bailey" ; Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 6:01 PM Subject: Re: Damiano's Lute > At 01:47 PM 11/27/2002 +0800, Andrew Bailey wrote: > > >"If Gods existance was proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt , tomorrow, how > >would that affect you?" > > Eh. Not in the least. I mean, I already know that god exists. It's just > that god has no existence in dependant of man's belief. God is an idea, > and the idea exists, and even moves people to take actions (some of them > laudable, many of them horrid). > > > From andrew at networkharmoni.com.au Wed Nov 27 17:13:10 2002 From: andrew at networkharmoni.com.au (Andrew Bailey) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 09:13:10 +0800 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: <200211270513.gAR5DKKi046537@realtime.exit.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20021126225129.0278a0a0@localhost> Message-ID: <3DE56DA6.3030903@networkharmoni.com.au> Steven Brust wrote: > At 01:47 PM 11/27/2002 +0800, Andrew Bailey wrote: > >> "If Gods existance was proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt , tomorrow, >> how would that affect you?" > > > Eh. Not in the least. I mean, I already know that god exists. It's > just that god has no existence in dependant of man's belief. God is an > idea, and the idea exists, and even moves people to take actions (some > of them laudable, many of them horrid). > > That sounds similar to modernism :) Andrew. From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Wed Nov 27 17:22:58 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 19:22:58 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: Message-ID: <3DE56FF2.6040104@attbi.com> HT went to a whole lot of trouble. Thank you so much for the tablature. I will see what I can do with it . . . after Thanksgiving. Mia Going to make piecrust . . . From jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca Wed Nov 27 17:42:27 2002 From: jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca (James and Mary Burbidge) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 20:42:27 -0500 Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: <3DE57483.1D7E810@sympatico.ca> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > rone at ennui.org (definitely what) writes: > > > Erik Dahl writes: > > I find this recent trend towards defining atheism as a religion of > > non-belief very disconcerting. Instead of maintaining that atheism > > is "belief in no god," or "belief there is no god," can't we say > > instead that it is "no belief in god?" For me, at any rate, it is > > more about not believing in something than believing in something > > opposed to something else. > > I'm aiming for accuracy of the term; I don't wish to offend anyone. > > > > That's traditionally called agnosticism. > > Since I've got the OED up, here's what they have to say about that: > > agnostic: > A. n. One who holds that the existence of anything beyond and behind > material phenomena is unknown and (so far as can be judged) > unknowable, and especially that a First Cause and an unseen world are > subjects of which we know nothing. > [Suggested by Prof. Huxley at a party held previous to the formation > of the now defunct Metaphysical Society, at Mr. James Knowles's house > on Clapham Common, one evening in 1869, in my hearing. He took it from > St. Paul's mention of the alter to 'the Unknown God.' R.H Hutton in > letter 13 Mar. 1881.] > > Atheist is much simpler: > > 1. One who denies or disbelieves the existence of a God. > > And dates to at least 1568. And before that, in Latin and Greek. I always have distinguished (and have moved in a world in which others distinguish) between four distinct sets of people: 1) Atheistic agnostics, who tend to the view that there is no god, but that this cannot be / has not been proved one way or the other; 2) Theistic agnostics (yes, the term really is used like this), who believe in God but who distinguish between belief and knowledge and hold that the existence of God either has not been proved or is incapable of proof in the strict syllogistic sense. Lorenzo Valla was one of these; so would many theologians who disagree with natural theology. 3) Theists who believe in God and either equate belief with knowledge or hold that God's existence can be proved by some mix of a priori and a posteriori arguments. The first set to me represent shoddy thinking; the second the various schools of natural theology, mainly Thomist. 4) Atheists who hold that God does not exist and that this is provable. Unfortunately, the term "gnostic" has been pre-empted for application to the third and fourth sets of people. The fourth set of people can be held to have a "belief system", at least by people in any of the first three sets. But I don't think it would be fair to call them "religious". One of the peculiarities of the debate over the last couple of centuries or so is that the old cosmological arguments -- which were pretty marginal to more traditional theologians and philosophers of religion, even when they were accepted; Aquinas doesn't base much on the Five Arguments -- have become more focussed on, and the old arguments from history, which _were_ taken to be central, have been pretty well marginalized. This seems to have been a result of the deist phase of Western Europe. -- James Burbidge jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca From loki at twwol.dyndns.org Wed Nov 27 17:44:43 2002 From: loki at twwol.dyndns.org (Loki) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:44:43 -0400 Subject: Domino's Lute In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021127161835.025aacd0@localhost> Message-ID: On 11/27/02 8:20 PM, "Steven Brust" wrote: > At 09:34 PM 11/26/2002 -0400, Loki wrote: >> Buddhism's a religion. However, there's no belief in or reverence for any >> superhuman powers in it. > > Rubbish. Anyone who has even studied Japanese karate knows that there is > belief in, and certainly reverence for, superhuman powers in > Buddhism. Indeed, Buddhism, more than any other region that comes to mind, > is all *about* supernatural powers, revering them, and how to get them for > yourself. Sorry. I spoke poorly. I was meaning power in the sense of entity, rather than power in the sense of ability. Perhaps a different word other than power might work better: it's ambiguous. -- The truth speaks for itself. I'm just a messenger. --- Lyta Alexander "Babylon 5: Between the Darkness and the Light" From electrictwilight at hotmail.com Wed Nov 27 17:47:54 2002 From: electrictwilight at hotmail.com (H. T.) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 01:47:54 +0000 Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: >From: Mia McDavid >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: Damiano's Lute >Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 19:22:58 -0600 > >HT went to a whole lot of trouble. Thank you so much for the tablature. I >will see what I can do with it . . . after Thanksgiving. No problem, though, I didn't post the "entire" movement to the board, only a sampling of it. I sent the entire movement to you via personal e-mail because you expressed an interest in the piece and I didn't want to "take up space" on the site with any more of it. However, since it has been brought up, for anyone interested in the entire tablature of the "Sarabande" movement of the J.S. Bach Suite for Lute(BMV 997) (lute music by the way, you can play on your guitar so long as you use an alternative tuning), see below: >From: Mia McDavid >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: Damiano's Lute >Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 17:28:57 -0600 > >Hey, Bach tablature! I gotta try this! > >Mia > >If you really are going to play around with this, you should have the > >entire movement of the suite, so I have copied it below. One note > >though, it should be played "classical" finger-style instead of "folk" > >finger-style. So, if you are used to playing finger-style while >playing >folk music you need to ditch the pinkie finger, it will just >mess you up >and make the piece all that more difficult. _______________________________________________________________ Johann Sebastian Bach Suite for Lute Sarabande (BMV 997) 1 | . | . | . E|-5-----------7h9-7------\5-------4-------5-------| B|-5-----------------------------------------------| G|-5---------------7------\5-------4-------5-------| D|-------------------------------------------------| A|-0---------------0---------------0---------------| E|-------------------------------------------------| 2 | . | . | . E|-------------------------------------------------| B|-3-----------------------------------------------| G|-4-----------------------------------------------| D|-3-----------------------------------------------| A|-0-----------2h3-2-------0---------------0-------| E|---------------------------------4---------------| 3 | . | . | . | . | . | . E|-----0---7-----5-4-------|-------------------------| B|-3-6---3-3---------6-5---|-----------------1-3/5-6-| G|-4---------------------7-|-5-4-5-4-2---2-4---------| D|-3-------6---------------|-----------2-------------| A|---------0-------0-------|-0-----------------------| E|-4-----------------------|-------------------------| 5 | . | . | . | . | . | . E|-------------------------|-------4-5-------------4-| B|-8-5---------------------|---2-3-------------3-1---| G|-----6-----3-2-0-2-0-----|-------------------------| D|-----5---------------3-2-|-3---------3-2-0-2-------| A|-0-------0-------0-------|-0-------0-------0-------| E|-------------------------|-------------------------| 7 | . | . | . | . | . | . E|-5---------------------2-|-------------------------| B|---------------1---------|-1-------0---------------| G|-------------2---4-1-2---|-2-------1---------------| D|---2\1---1-4-------------|-1-------2---0-----------| A|-0-----4-0-------0-------|-----------------3---2---| E|-------------------------|-0-----------------------| 9 | . | . | . | . | . | . E|-----0-0-0-1-3-3-3-5/6-6-|-6-3-3-0-0-------------3-| B|-1-3---------------------|-------------------------| G|-------------------------|-----------5-5-3-3-2-3---| D|-------------------------|-------------5-------2---| A|-0-----------------------|-----------------3-------| E|---------3-------1-------|-------------------------| 11 | . | . | . | . | . | . E|-------------0-0-0-1/3-3-|-3-0-0-----------------0-| B|-----1-1-1-3-------------|-------2-2---------------| G|-2-3---------------------|-----------2-2-0-0---0---| D|-3-------2-------0-------|-------------2-----3-----| A|-------------------------|-4---------------0---4---| E|-------------------------|-------------------------| 13 | . | . | . | . | . | . E|-------------------------|---------------0-1-0---1-| B|---------------0-1-0---1-|-0-------0-1-3-------3---| G|-----------0-2-------2---|---2-0-2-----------------| D|-3-2-0-2-3---0---2---3---|-5-----------------------| A|-5-----------------------|-----------------0---2---| E|-------------------------|-------------3-----------| 15 | . | . | . | . | . | . E|-0-3-1-5\3-------1-0-----|-------------------------| B|-----------1-0-1-----3-1-|-1-----------------------| G|-------------------------|-0-----------------------| D|-------------------------|-2-----------------------| A|-3---0-------------------|-3---3---3---2---2---0---| E|---------0---1---3---3---|-------------------------| repeat measures 1-15 and substitute measure 17 for measure 16... 17 | . | . | . E|-------------------------| B|-1-----------------------| G|-0-----------------------| D|-2-----------------------| A|-3-----------------------| E|-------------------------| and then continue... 18 | . | . | . E|-0-----------1h3-1-------0-----------------------| B|-1-------------------------------3-------1-------| G|-0---------------2-------0-----------------------| D|---------------------------------3------\2-------| A|-3---------------3---------------3---------------| E|-------------------------------------------------| *arpegiate 19 | . | . | . E|-2-----------------------------------------------| B|-------------------------------------------------| G|-2-----------------------------------------------| D|-0-----------0h2-0-------------------------------| A|-3-----------------------3-------2-------0-------| E|-------------------------------------------------| 20 | . | . | . E|-3-----------5h7-5---3-----------------------5---| B|-3---------------5-------7---5---3---0---1-------| G|-0---------------------------------------2-------| D|---------------------------------4---------------| A|-2---------------3---------------5---------------| E|-------------------------------------------------| 21 | . | . | . E|-----------------7-------| B|-1-0-1-3-0-------8-------| G|-2-------0-----------0---| D|-0-----------------------| A|-----------------7-------| E|-3-----------7-----------| 22 | . | . | . | . | . | . E|c7--\5---5---3---3---2---|-2---3-5-----------------| B|c8--\7---7---5---5---4---|-4---5---1-------0-------| G|---------------------2---|-----0---2---------------| D|-------------------------|---------4---2---1---2-4-| A|-3-----------------------|-------------------------| E|-------------------------|-------------------------| 24 | . | . | . | . | . | . E|-------0-2-5-3\2-3-0-2---|-0-------3---------------| B|-0-2-4-----------------4-|-0-----------------------| G|-------------------------|-0-----------3---3---2---| D|-------------------------|-----2---2---0---0-------| A|---------0-------2-------|---------------------4---| E|-3-----------------------|-0-----------------------| 26 | . | . | . | . | . | . E|-3-----------------------|-----------3-3-6\5-3-----| B|---6-5-5-5-3-2-2-2-0-----|---2-2-5-5-----------6-5-| G|-2-------------------2-2-|-2-----------------------| D|-2-----------------------|-5---2-------2-----------| A|-4-----------0---0---4---|---------4-------4---0---| E|-------------------------|-------------------------| 28 | . | . | . | . | . | . E|-------------------------|-----------1-1-5\3-1-0---| B|-6-5-3-3-3-1-0-0-0-------|---0-0-3-3-------------3-| G|-------------------2-0-0-|-0-----------------------| D|-0-----------0---0-------|-3---0-------0-----------| A|---------------------2---|---------2-------2-------| E|-------------------------|---------------------3---| 30 | . | . | . | . | . | . E|-0-1-0---------------0---|-----------------------1-| B|-------3-1-0-------1-----|---3-------0---------3---| G|-------------2-1-2-----0-|-------5-------2--\1-----| D|-------------2-----------|-3---2---0---------------| A|-3---------------3---0---|-5-----------3--\2---2---| E|-------------------------|-------------------------| 32 | . | . | . | . | . | . E|---4-5-------------------|-------------------------| B|/5-----6-4-5-----3-1-0---|-------------------------| G|-------------1-2-------2-|-2-----------------------| D|-------------------------|-2-----------------------| A|-3---2---3---------------|-3-----------2---2---3---| E|-------------1---0---0---|-5---5---5---------------| repeat measures 18 through 32 and then end with measure 34. 34 | . | . | . E|-------------------------|| B|-------------------------|| G|-2-----------------------|| D|-2-----------------------|| A|-3-----------------------|| E|-5-----------------------|| _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From sraun at fireopal.org Wed Nov 27 18:38:04 2002 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 20:38:04 -0600 Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. In-Reply-To: References: <2955.192.168.1.1.1038429519.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: <20021128023804.GB15372@fireopal.org> On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 02:33:03PM -0800, Dennis Higbee wrote: > On Wed, 27 Nov 2002, Rick Castello wrote: > > Scott Raun said: > > > My favorite definition of agnostic is 'I don't know and I don't care'. > > > These are two different meanings, and do not track. > > > > One is a merely logical statement: > > I do not and cannot with existing evidence know if there is > > a being matching current agreed-upon definitions of God. > > > > The other is making a value judgement: > > If there were a being matching God, I would not care about it. > > > > Not the same, and though the second may be an opinion of SOME > > agnostics, it is NOT part of the definition of agnostic. > > They're put in the same sentence because they are connected statements. > "I do not and cannot with existing evidence know if there is a being > matching current agreed-upon definitions of God. Given that this is the > case, I have no interest in pursuing the question." > > At least that's how I read the above statement. Thank you - that's a very accurate expansion of the way I interpreted it when I first heard it. The AND is very important! Admittedly, if irrefutable evidence became available, I would expect some sort of reaction from the agnostic. Ignoring the evidence would be ... out of character for all the agnostics that I know. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org From electrictwilight at hotmail.com Wed Nov 27 18:31:03 2002 From: electrictwilight at hotmail.com (H. T.) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 02:31:03 +0000 Subject: Domino's Lute Message-ID: >"Steven Brust" wrote: > > >Rubbish. Anyone who has even studied Japanese karate knows that there is >belief in, and certainly reverence for, superhuman powers in Buddhism. >Indeed, Buddhism, more than any other region that comes to mind, is all >*about* supernatural powers, revering them, and how to get them for >yourself. Really? And though I have to agree about the "supernatural" powers thing, or at least about Buddhist believing in them, I thought Buddhism was (or at least traditional Buddhism is) *about* reaching a state of Nirvana and ending the cycle of birth-death-rebirth. I also thought that unless you were "Pure Land" Buddhist you generally believed that once you reach this state of Nirvana you simply become part of the energy that flows through the cosmos, and then, emmm you simply cease to exist. (the "white stage" or "Buddhist plane" if you will, and if you are into meditation. Though, through meditation this it is difficult stage to reach or keep for more than a short period.) Furthermore, I also was under the impression that even Pure Land Buddhist only go to their "paradise" for a short time where Amita Buddha along with Bodhisattvas help these souls in this comforting environment until they reach their state of Nirvana as well. The only place I can think of where Buddhism would be about super-natrual powers and how to "revering them, and how to get them for yourself..." would be in the belief in karma, and then, this as I understand it, is only so that one will be reborn into a better rebirth. My understanding is also, that monks, who are supposed to have fuller dharma bodies than the rest of us work with things such as loyalty and self-sacrifice to reach states of "wisdom", and as I see it "wisdom" and "power" are two completely different things. Lastly, though Buddhism may not be an atheistic religion in all essence and as it has been defined here, (because they do believe in Bodhisattvas, Therevada Buddhist even believe in a hell before rebirth if you have acquired more bad karma than good, (and more bad karma then would simply force the cycle to cause you to have a life that is "worse off" than before) and Buddhist also worship Buddha-- but as a man, not in his dharma form), in all essence Buddhism "can be" considered a poly-theological OR an atheistic religion because the goal is to "cease to exist" not enter some heaven, and there is no omniscient power over looking them all, not even Guatama Buddha. Though of course, I am probably wrong as I am not a Buddhist. :) :) :) _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Nov 27 18:56:12 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 27 Nov 2002 20:56:12 -0600 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <20021128004853.23192.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20021128004853.23192.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Caliann the Elf writes: > Upon reflection of this thread, I find myself personally offended by > the idea of an omniscient, omnipotent, eternal creator that, for > some odd, divine reason, suffers from severe insecurity and low > self-esteem in that He constantly needs the praises of His creations > to know that He is "good". Me too. But if he's real, we have to deal with it. Luckily, a complete absence of the slightest trace of evidence even *suggesting* that he's real leaves me free not to worry about it much. [snip] > Mathmaticians and physicists can mathamatically trace the the > expansion of the cosmos back to the "Big Bang". The difficulty > there is when they get to Time = 0. At that point, something, > someone or some force outside our laws of physics had to make the > first push. In other words, something outside of our cosmos had to > start the ball rolling. (The previous paragraph is based on > discussions I had some years ago with a group of mathmatics > professors. New information MAY have come to light since then. If > so, please politely inform me of it and don't jump down my throat, > okay?) We still can't go back beyond the beginning of the observable universe. Thing is, I don't find postulating a (non-disprovable) "first cause" to help *any*. Because the question of where *it* came >from is at least as pressing as where the universe came from was before. And *much* more troubling, especially if your first cause is a self-aware entity (where the heck did one of those come from, so early?). > Psychologically, most humans have a hardwired need for some form of > religion and/or spirituality. (If you are interested in the specific > studies on this, e-mail me off list and I'll send you the full > bibliography) This need that is shared by most of humanity begs the > evolutionary question: What racial survival necessity was/is filled > by religion/spirituality? Evolutionary fallacy; all that's necessary is that it didn't *hurt* survival too much. And it may be totally a side-effect of something else, for that matter. I tend to distrust scholarship in this area -- it's so politcally dangerous to find anything except pro-religion results. And the findings are totally contrary to all my personal experience. > Some have said that religion itself is shrinking. I have to > disagree. I concede that membership of the MAJOR religions is > shrinking, but that is in favor of smaller, gentler belief > systems. Christianity, Islam and Judaism are shrinking exponentially > as people turn to Buddhism, Paganism and Kabbalism. Mysticism and > meditative religions are growing while the rigid, older systems are > loosing their followers. This is NOT a new thing, as it has been > repeated throughout history in different cultures. That's very much a *local* phenomena; talk to people from Europe (including the UK). > I do not think that religion itself is what most people object > to....I think it is the religions that they feel are forced upon > them. Most of the people I speak with do not object to the idea of > God (or Goddess), they object to the idea of Hell...or worse, of > Heavan where one spends eternity singing "Hosanna" over and over > again. ( Okay, someone remind me, WHICH place am I supposed to be > aspiring to? The eternity of screams and Hellfire....or the > eternity of musical boredom?) Maybe. I object strenuously to the whole concept of religion, spirituality, etc. It's superstitious nonsense, and hurts people, and destroys great civilizations. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Nov 27 18:58:14 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 27 Nov 2002 20:58:14 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <3DE56A38.6030507@attbi.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126141008.02583540@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20021127162147.025ab2b0@localhost> <3DE56A38.6030507@attbi.com> Message-ID: Mia McDavid writes: > SKBZ says that the gods are shrinking. > > Maybe so, but look at it the other way. God is growing. There used > to be a sun god and an earth god and a thunder god, etc. etc. Each > god had his/her own little niche in ordering the world. > > Now we have God, creator of the galaxies, who yet numbers the hairs on > our heads. Well, yes, sort of. That god existed over 3000 years ago, though. He's a more popular god than he was then, in terms of number of people and probably also of percentage of people who believe in him, but he's not new. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Nov 27 19:01:31 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:01:31 -0600 Subject: Domino's Lute In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021127161835.025aacd0@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126145741.0271ed90@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20021127161835.025aacd0@localhost> Message-ID: <20021128030131.GC4346@infodancer.org> On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 04:20:30PM -0800, Steven Brust wrote: > Rubbish. Anyone who has even studied Japanese karate knows that there is > belief in, and certainly reverence for, superhuman powers in > Buddhism. Indeed, Buddhism, more than any other region that comes to mind, > is all *about* supernatural powers, revering them, and how to get them for > yourself. I suspect you are conflating certain polluting factors in Japanese religion generally with Buddhism specifically. Buddhism in its original form is relatively free of supernatural powers; it deals with "enlightenment" which does not necessarily grant any special powers, but rather is a product of your own understanding. The conception of ki and its broad influence on the practice of martial arts appears to exist independent of Buddhism. Now, if you were instead referring to the ritualized respect for the founding sensei (as found in Aikido, where each practice session in many dojos is opened with a Shinto-Buddhist ceremony to placate the spirits and show respect for the founder), that's a more religious aspect to be sure, but it's a corruption from Japanese traditions of spirit-worship and ancestor-worship rather than a part of Buddhism. Unless the sensei is claimed to have been a incarnation of Buddha (the term for which I can never spell properly), in which case you're looking at a corruption from other sources; original Buddhism did not contain reverence for Buddha-as-divine, though it was added very early. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Nov 27 19:04:27 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:04:27 -0600 Subject: Domino's Lute In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021127161413.0277b830@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126145741.0271ed90@localhost> <114.1b2e0f75.2b152960@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20021126145741.0271ed90@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20021127161413.0277b830@localhost> Message-ID: <20021128030427.GD4346@infodancer.org> On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 04:15:56PM -0800, Steven Brust wrote: > At 05:21 PM 11/26/2002 -0600, Joshua Kronengold wrote: > >existing, self-proclaimed religons that don't have belief or reverence > >for a superhuman power -- Zen (the universal counterexample, and > >usually mixed up with a lot of superstitions that -do- have > >supernatural powers attached, but nevertheless); confucianism, and > >discordianism don't, certainly. > Discordianism I'm not familiar with. To cliam that Zen and Confucianism > don't have belief or reverence for a superhuman being is only possible for > those who know nothing about them. Get thee to the Illuminatus trilogy by Robert Anton Wilson. Seeing as this was the book that turned me into a libertarian before I noticed what it was doing and put my filters back up, the effect on your socialistic leanings will be interesting. :) The short version: Discordians worship chaos. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From davids at kithrup.com Wed Nov 27 20:33:15 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 20:33:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 27 Nov 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >David Silberstein writes: > >> On Wed, 27 Nov 2002, Andrew Bailey wrote: >> >"If Gods existance was proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt , >> >tomorrow, how would that affect you?" >> Well, I guess my response would be "What sort of god, and what sort >> of proof?" >A proof "beyond a shadow of a doubt". That is, you aren't allowed to >argue about that part. > Hey, let 'em try and stop me. :-) Proof is exactly what I'd want to argue about! In that vein, I had another thought: Just as it impossible to prove the negative (that God does not exist), it's also impossible to prove God's existence *if* you define God as being the absolute infinite, because you could always posit that there's always more levels up. So for example, let's say that tomorrow, geneticists find that encoded in the genes of every living thing on earth is a sequence that decodes to "Intelligent Designer Wuz Here", thus proving that evolution had a bit of a boost. Theists, of course, will crow that proof of God's existence has been found! Not so fast, comes back the response of the militant agnostics. All you have is the Intelligent Designer. You don't yet have any proof that this entity has anything to do with the creation of the earth, let alone the creation of the entire universe. You certainly don't have any proof that this being's character has anything in common with the God of the Bible. How do you know the I.D. isn't just an extremely powerful alien entity? And so on. For any entity that is proven to exist, there's the counterargument, "Who created that entity?" And I don't see how the proof could be made that that entity existed eternally, because eternity is a long, long time. How can you prove that an entity is eternal unless you are eternal as well? From davids at kithrup.com Wed Nov 27 20:48:50 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 20:48:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 27 Nov 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > >I object strenuously to the whole concept of religion, spirituality, >etc. It's superstitious nonsense, and hurts people, and destroys >great civilizations. > Eh. I sometimes think this, but I am less certain than you are. The way I would re-phrase your statement is that cruelty and wilfull stupidity hurt people, and that all too often religion is used as an excuse to commit cruel and stupid acts. But religion or spirituality is just a way of thinking and/or feeling about the universe. It may not the "best" way to think or feel about the universe, but it can just as easily be neutral or positive as negative in its effects. If religion is harmful, does it necessarily follow that the absence of religion is beneficial? The usual counterexample, by the way, to "religion considered harmful" is Josef Stalin - a non-religious man, he believed in himself, and in his right to kill or imprison anyone who disagreed with him. *shrug* Damned if you do and damned if you don't. From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Wed Nov 27 21:08:11 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 23:08:11 -0600 Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. References: <20021126232430.81265.qmail@web13709.mail.yahoo.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20021127115956.01d905f0@pop.east.cox.net> <20021127183033.GC12143@fireopal.org> <2955.192.168.1.1.1038429519.squirrel@404.978.org> <3304.192.168.1.1.1038432814.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: Rick Castello wrote: > Gametech said: >> Rick Castello wrote: >>> I am agnostic, but I'll tell you now that if the available >>> evidence DID change, and it could be PROVEN that there is a >>> being matching one of the many descriptions of God, I would be VERY >>> interested to learn more about it, and ask a hell of a lot of >>> questions. >>> >>> I might get squashed for my impudence, but I'd certainly TRY to >>> get some answers to some interesting questions. :) >> >> I think the word imprudent fits. > > Perhaps, if you believe in an Old Testament God who'd squash me > for simply having the gall to ASK a question. > > I said what I meant, and I meant what I said... (an elephant's > faithful, one hundred percent!) > > Imprudent: > Unwise or indiscreet; not prudent. > > Impudent: > Characterized by offensive boldness; insolent or impertinent. > > If I asked my question rudely, my impudence would be my undoing; > it is my rudeness that would be imprudent. > > -Rick Oh, heh believe it or not I actually typed this response to >> On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 12:05:36PM -0500, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: >>> I went hunting once for a word to describe lack of belief in any >>> Deity (including active non-belief in a Deith) and failed >>> miserably. I always wondered if "infidel" fit? It's got a lot of >>> baggage, unfortunately. We need something that not only says >>> "there is no God", but says, "and I don't care if there is one or >>> not". , it just happens to be coincidence that you had used the word impudence further in the message and that I thought I was responding to an earlier piece of the thread, I was trying to help define the word Athiest whom doesn't care which I don't believe agnostic defines it perfectly (neither does imprudence but it does describe the making of a strong decision and not caring in a round about way) From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Nov 27 21:22:58 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:22:58 -0800 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <20021127163805.16928.qmail@web12704.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126141008.02583540@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021127211557.026e3710@localhost> At 08:38 AM 11/27/2002 -0800, you wrote: > >I think we are discussing more man's interest in >religion (or mathematics) than his achievements. I do not. I think "achievements" is exactly the right word. The more we understand about how the world works, the more we are able to use that knowledge to shape the world in a way that is best for us. The Incredible Shrinking God is an important achievement. >David seemed to be saying it's not believable that >there would be interest in religion (or, as I prefer >it, spirituality) in the far future, He said nothing about interest; he was speaking of belief in the supernatural, as I understood it. >since we would >have explained everything with science that religion >sought to answer. I think there are questions that >are unanswerable by science That's true, science can never understand how the solar system works. Oh, wait. Well, science can never understand what causes polio. Oh, nuts. Hmmm. Well, science can never understand life. Oh, that too? Well, I'm sure science can never understand....uh...human emotion! There we go! And that's where God lives. *whew* Glad we found one. > > Man's religious beliefs have changed over the > > millennia. In my opinion, an > > examination of these changes would lead to the > > conclusion that the gods > > have been shrinking. Those areas where the > > supernatural is required for > > understanding have gotten smaller and smaller. The > > idea that they might > > vanish entirely in the not-to-distant future doesn't > > seem farfetched to me. > >I agree if you restrict your focus to the Western >world (by which I mean Europe and North America). I >would argue that religion is THE focus of many >populous societies in other parts of the world; India, >China (Falon Gong), the MidEast... I hope you are not seriously suggesting the Buddhism or Hunduism have not changed in the last few hundred years. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Nov 27 21:27:52 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:27:52 -0800 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <20021128004853.23192.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021127212555.026d2150@localhost> At 04:48 PM 11/27/2002 -0800, Caliann the Elf wrote: > >Mathmaticians and physicists can mathamatically trace the the expansion of >the cosmos back to the "Big Bang". The difficulty there is when they get >to Time = 0. At that point, something, someone or some force outside our >laws of physics had to make the first push. If one accepts that Time can equal 0--that is, that there is a point where there is no motion, or no matter, or no time (equal concepts) then your conclusion naturally follows. But the big bang theory does not require this belief, and I know of no evidence to support it. From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Wed Nov 27 21:43:58 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 23:43:58 -0600 Subject: The Religion Debate References: <20021128004853.23192.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Caliann the Elf wrote: > Upon reflection of this thread, I find myself personally offended by > the idea of an omniscient, omnipotent, eternal creator that, for some > odd, divine reason, suffers from severe insecurity and low self- > esteem in that He constantly needs the praises of His creations to > know that He is "good". I praise my dog. I praise my cat. I praise > my children. All of these are creatures that require praise in order > to develop suitable mannerisms for life in my home. Yet I also have > trouble with deism. The idea that some supernatural creator made our > entire Universe....then abandoned it. I doubt that *if* there were to be a god that this is the situation, I think you are thinking too specific about it. Really the question isn't does the christian god exist -- it's does a/any god(s) exist; if you were to define that you'd define (mind the crudeness) the correct relegion to worship that god if indeed he cared if you worshiped him/her/it what points to this *may or may not exist god* into it having abandoned his/her/it's creation? What makes you think that it has? Because you haven't personaly spoke with him/her/it? I'd dare say that If god created everything what makes humans more important than the dirt we walk on to god (I'll tell you what, Human arrogance, oh wait nope...)? what about electrons or helium or xyz anything that exists becuase they don't understand god it's all of the sudden abandonment? From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Nov 27 21:32:14 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 23:32:14 -0600 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021127212555.026d2150@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021127212555.026d2150@localhost> Message-ID: <20021128053214.GA6832@infodancer.org> On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 09:27:52PM -0800, Steven Brust wrote: > At 04:48 PM 11/27/2002 -0800, Caliann the Elf wrote: > >Mathmaticians and physicists can mathamatically trace the the expansion of > >the cosmos back to the "Big Bang". The difficulty there is when they get > >to Time = 0. At that point, something, someone or some force outside our > >laws of physics had to make the first push. > If one accepts that Time can equal 0--that is, that there is a point where > there is no motion, or no matter, or no time (equal concepts) then your > conclusion naturally follows. But the big bang theory does not require > this belief, and I know of no evidence to support it. You have to pull out meta-time, in that case, but first-cause is still a valid point against ANY explanatory system. You can always step back and say "But what created THAT?" There is no satisfactory explanation. God is a cop-out in that respect, and vulnerable to the same argument (except that theists define God to be "that which answers the first-cause argument", and think they have said something profound). But regarding the big-bang theory, my understanding is that at the "beginning" (immediately preceding the big bang), all the math we know how to do descends into a singularity that says time did not exist/was not relevant. No one finds this particularly satisfying, but there was this explosion that kinda messed up any evidence of what was around beforehand... -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From Lydy at demesne.com Wed Nov 27 21:52:02 2002 From: Lydy at demesne.com (Lydia Nickerson) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 23:52:02 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <3DE541E7.3020700@attbi.com> References: <200211261847.gAQIlTAB043480@realtime.exit.com> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127140051.00ab6aa0@dd-b.net> <3DE541E7.3020700@attbi.com> Message-ID: At 4:06 PM -0600 11/27/02, Mia McDavid wrote: >Lydia wrote, and I hereby forward: > >...the relative, irrational, and the invisible -- exactly the ground >that materialists don't believe in. > >Yeah, but it's still *there*, isn't it? No. Your argument is circular. There must be an Invisible world because we can't talk about it unless there is an Invisible world. >The differences in our feelings, perceptions and personalities >exist, whether they are material or explicable or quantifiable or >not. Granted. >DDB would probably argue that they are entirely the result of >neurochemical activity in our brains, and that if they difffer >sharply from the norm, we will someday be able to "correct" them. >He would then remove from my personality the flaw that makes me feel >supported by the love of God. I'm with DDB on the neurochemistry. Having the last half of my life on various psych drugs, I'm fully convinced of the chemistry of my existence. There have also been studies, some recent, which suggest that religious states, such as deep meditation or prayer or feeling like one is speaking directly to god are physical states, ones that some people's bodies are designed to accept. A genetic predisposition toward God, like I have a genetic predisposition to manic depression. In many ways, I think it's really really cool that we're finding out so much about how the world works, and being able to medicate people's brains in more and more precise ways. I don't worry about losing my humanity very often. Not yet. The danger will come when people stop having the right to choose their own medical care. In the mean time, Better Living Through Chemistry! > >Maybe, but he's speculating. He would say I'm speculating, too. >No, I can't pick God up in my hands and bring him to you. And, I >can't say; "At precisely 6:00 this evening, God will prove that he >exists by writing "peace on earth" in the sky." I have experience >of God that is entirely subjective, immaterial, and illogical, and I >find it quite convincing. Yep. Gnosis can't be shared. Those afflicted by gnosis can gather together seeking comfort and understanding. Some religious organizations design rituals and communities to help wayfarers achieve enlightenment. But your gnosis is of absolutely no value in trying to convince me that God exists. > >There's a famous quote that says "Faith is the substance of things >hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." DDB has his own >faith--similar to Asimov or Roddenberry, he seems to believe in the >future of humankind, ever evolving toward something wiser and more >rational. There's a difference between a faith and an extrapolation based on known facts. DDB believes that the future will be better than the past, that mankind is capable of learning and that it'll be fun to watch. >I find his faith quite as repellent as he finds mine. As to whose >hopes will be rewarded, we just don't know yet, do we? Why do you find what you perceive to be DDB's beliefs to be repellant? -- Lydy Nickerson lydy at demesne.com lydy at lydy.com Dulciculi Aliquorum From Phoenixrave at sc.rr.com Wed Nov 27 21:50:43 2002 From: Phoenixrave at sc.rr.com (Robert Pierce) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 00:50:43 -0500 Subject: The Religion Debate Message-ID: <031b01c296a2$174ebe20$d92b5818@sc.rr.com> You have to pull out meta-time, in that case, but first-cause is still a valid point against ANY explanatory system. You can always step back and say "But what created THAT?" There is no satisfactory explanation. God is a cop-out in that respect, and vulnerable to the same argument (except that theists define God to be "that which answers the first-cause argument", and think they have said something profound). Thinking in terms of dimensions, your first-cause could be operating in larger dimensions. And a God opperating in more dimensions that has "always been," is as plausible as a universe that has "always been." From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Nov 27 21:47:44 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 23:47:44 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: References: <200211261847.gAQIlTAB043480@realtime.exit.com> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127140051.00ab6aa0@dd-b.net> <3DE541E7.3020700@attbi.com> Message-ID: <20021128054744.GB6832@infodancer.org> On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 11:52:02PM -0600, Lydia Nickerson wrote: > I'm with DDB on the neurochemistry. Having the last half of my life > on various psych drugs, I'm fully convinced of the chemistry of my > existence. There have also been studies, some recent, which suggest > that religious states, such as deep meditation or prayer or feeling > like one is speaking directly to god are physical states, ones that > some people's bodies are designed to accept. A genetic > predisposition toward God, like I have a genetic predisposition to > manic depression. This doesn't necessary deny the validity of that experience. Imagine a supremely powerful alien being who wishes to guide humanity in their evolution. Sometime before the dawn of history he lands, introduces a genetic change into the species, causing some humans to build a biological "god receiver" to which he can broadcast messages when humanity needs a prophet. So maybe we can scientifically explain the feelings, but that doesn't mean they aren't triggered by God. > In many ways, I think it's really really cool that > we're finding out so much about how the world works, and being able > to medicate people's brains in more and more precise ways. I don't > worry about losing my humanity very often. Not yet. The danger will > come when people stop having the right to choose their own medical > care. In the mean time, Better Living Through Chemistry! In case you haven't noticed, that's already becoming the case. Read up on ritalin and kids for a good example. Personally, I have severe concerns about any sort of compulsory (or even merely encouraged) regression to some defined "normality". Diversity of thought and opinion are worthwhile things; creativity and art are social goods; the existing structures need to be challenged rather than assumed. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Wed Nov 27 22:33:01 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 00:33:01 -0600 Subject: The Religion Debate References: <20021128004853.23192.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Maybe. I object strenuously to the whole concept of religion, > spirituality, etc. It's superstitious nonsense, and hurts people, and > destroys great civilizations. I was recently commissioned to create a website for the Gyuto Wheel of Dharma Monastery here in Minnesota for a group of Tibetan Buddhists (refugees) They have a Monastery here in MN. I know little to nothing about their religion but when I asked what's the goal here what do you guys basically do the answer I got was: We try to teach Compassion and Love as well as promote Peace. The only way of effective teaching is to demonstrate, near as I can tell they do. Now some look at it as propaganda other see it for something else. I'm not going to 'argue' your opinion. I am curious though how you perceive people like this to be practicing their religion to be hurting people and destroying great civilizations. What I see are real world actions of placing emphasis on good things (I don't know anyone who will argue against those things mentioned above Peace, etc.) even if the tool they use (their religious practices and teachings) are very superstitious or nonsensical. I think what is misunderstood about many people who practice religion is that they don't always believe every part of the teachings, for many only the underlying positive points are important (don't hurt other people, treat others well, unconditional love, etc.). It's a persons free will that determines what they believe, so maybe what you think is religion hurting people is really just people believing dumb shit, which will still happen rampantly without religion however you lose the benefit of them believing other good things as a side affect of that belief (you can look at it the other way around as well they want to practice these ideas and they find a religion they can practice within that meets some goals for them) What is so Awfully wrong about religion that counter's in it's entirety the good aspects of it? From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Nov 27 22:39:14 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 22:39:14 -0800 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <3DE56A38.6030507@attbi.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126141008.02583540@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20021127162147.025ab2b0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021127223605.0260cb70@localhost> At 06:58 PM 11/27/2002 -0600, Mia McDavid wrote: >SKBZ says that the gods are shrinking. > >Maybe so, but look at it the other way. God is growing. There used to be >a sun god and an earth god and a thunder god, etc. etc. Each god had >his/her own little niche in ordering the world. > >Now we have God, creator of the galaxies, who yet numbers the hairs on our >heads. You've left out a few steps. There is the creator, who yet numbers the hair on our heads, and sees (and controls) the fall of every sparrow. He sometimes screws up, but that's what miracles are for. Then there is the creator who did just that: Started the ball rolling. Set up the laws. After that, things worked well on their own (we're done with miracles now). Then there's the God who exists because, well, "There has to be *something* out there!" Then there's God who exists because otherwise "life has no meaning." See what mean? Not much left of the poor bugger who was once every rock and tree and turnip, is there? From FelixEisen at aol.com Wed Nov 27 22:50:05 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 01:50:05 EST Subject: Damiano's Lute Message-ID: <175.12752c65.2b17169d@aol.com> skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > Then there is the creator who did just that: Started the ball > rolling. Set up the laws. After that, things worked well on their own > (we're done with miracles now). I believe I prefer this version. Rather like the Creator in Raymond E. Feist's original quartet -- where Pug, Macros, and Pug's friend (can't remember his name) get caught in the time trap and get to see Creation from the City Beyond Time. They got to see it because, well, would YOU want to make something so fantastic, so majestic, and not have an audience for the act? Knightmarshall Felix Surnamed Eisen, or "Iron Felix" Hand of Morr, The Order of Bones From FelixEisen at aol.com Wed Nov 27 22:53:08 2002 From: FelixEisen at aol.com (FelixEisen at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 01:53:08 EST Subject: SOL -- Scribblies On Line Message-ID: <153.18101d94.2b171754@aol.com> Hey, Steve, question for you ... Have you and/or the rest of the Scribblies ever thought about hosting/helping out/taking part in a mailing-list version of the Scribblies? (And if so, can I be one of 'em?) Knightmarshall Felix Surnamed Eisen, or "Iron Felix" Hand of Morr, The Order of Bones From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Wed Nov 27 23:43:39 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 23:43:39 -0800 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <20021128004853.23192.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20021128004853.23192.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20021128074339.GA16540@ofb.net> On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 04:48:53PM -0800, Caliann the Elf wrote: > > Yet I also have trouble with deism. The idea that some supernatural creator > made our entire Universe....then abandoned it. That begs the visual of a > small child who, bored of his new pet, neglects and discards it in favor of My visual is of someone who's watching to see what happens. Like Stapledon's Star Maker. Or someone running a Game of Life. (A biiig Game of Life.) -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Wed Nov 27 23:47:26 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 23:47:26 -0800 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <20021128054744.GB6832@infodancer.org> References: <200211261847.gAQIlTAB043480@realtime.exit.com> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127140051.00ab6aa0@dd-b.net> <3DE541E7.3020700@attbi.com> <20021128054744.GB6832@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20021128074726.GB16540@ofb.net> On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 11:47:44PM -0600, Matthew Hunter wrote: > This doesn't necessary deny the validity of that experience. > Imagine a supremely powerful alien being who wishes to guide > humanity in their evolution. Sometime before the dawn of history > he lands, introduces a genetic change into the species, causing > some humans to build a biological "god receiver" to which he can > broadcast messages when humanity needs a prophet. Note this is scientifically testable, at least in theory, although practice might be troublesome. "Broadcast messages" implies some sort of medium, especially if the receiver is to be built out of flesh. If we're talking about radio waves or even subtle signals in the environment, these are in theory detectable. If we're talking about direct deposit into a brain, well, then some forces have to be deployed there, to make some neurons fire which wouldn't have otherwise. -xx- Damien X-) From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Nov 28 00:02:58 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 00:02:58 -0800 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: References: <20021128004853.23192.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> <20021128004853.23192.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021128000238.0260ca30@localhost> At 08:56 PM 11/27/2002 -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > >Maybe. I object strenuously to the whole concept of religion, >spirituality, etc. It's superstitious nonsense, and hurts people, and >destroys great civilizations. Okay, but other than that, does it do any harm? From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Nov 28 00:09:35 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 00:09:35 -0800 Subject: Domino's Lute In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021128000505.0275a2d0@localhost> At 02:31 AM 11/28/2002 +0000, H. T. wrote: >>"Steven Brust" wrote: >> >> >>Rubbish. Anyone who has even studied Japanese karate knows that there is >>belief in, and certainly reverence for, superhuman powers in Buddhism. >>Indeed, Buddhism, more than any other region that comes to mind, is all >>*about* supernatural powers, revering them, and how to get them for yourself. > > >Really? And though I have to agree about the "supernatural" powers thing, >or at least about Buddhist believing in them, Uh...that was my entire point. > >The only place I can think of where Buddhism would be about super-natrual >powers and how to "revering them, and how to get them for yourself..." >would be in the belief in karma, Just so. And I'm really curious about how you're going to come up with a definition of the rebirth of the human soul that doesn't involve the supernatural. Remember, this part of the discussion revolved around my claim that the word "religion" implies the belief in something superhuman, and some else's claim that, by this definition, Buddhism is not a religion. I insist that, by this definition, it is. That's my only claim on this issue. From andrew at networkharmoni.com.au Thu Nov 28 00:23:19 2002 From: andrew at networkharmoni.com.au (Andrew Bailey) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 16:23:19 +0800 Subject: The Religion Debate References: <20021128004853.23192.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3DE5D277.9060603@networkharmoni.com.au> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > Maybe. I object strenuously to the whole concept of religion, > spirituality, etc. It's superstitious nonsense, and hurts people, and > destroys great civilizations. > True, but any organised ideology is capable of those things. By organised I of course mean having more than one person believing in it and generally having an hierachy of leadership. Andrew. From irtheweasel at hotmail.com Thu Nov 28 01:02:48 2002 From: irtheweasel at hotmail.com (Wes) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 01:02:48 -0800 Subject: There are 201 unread Mail messages in your Inbox Message-ID: Oh yeah well I've got 649 unread messages from a while back that number was closer to 1,000 before I started working on it, that's what I got for being away for a week, I did go through them to make sure none were time critical what's left is all messages from this list, I had planned to read them during the week I had thought I'd be offline when I moved two weeks ago. The cable guy showed up the next day after I called him so I was only offline for a day, it's funny how preparing for the worst left me unprepared for the best. I had the same problems happening...I suggest switching over to the digest version. At least then you get only 10 emails, but the benefit of being able to read all of the posts without reaching epidemic proportions. If you use a web based email, then this is especially useful as you won't be as likely to completely fill up your inbox. If you use outlook express, then you won't be waiting an hour to download a g'jillion *yes, that is a real number...at least today it is :)* emails with most having been rather off-topic recently in my opinion. Wes From ambyrglow at softhome.net Thu Nov 28 01:05:01 2002 From: ambyrglow at softhome.net (Claire Rojstaczer) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 04:05:01 -0500 Subject: There are 201 unread Mail messages in your Inbox In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > If you use outlook express, then you won't be waiting an hour to >download a g'jillion *yes, that is a real number...at least today it >is :)* emails with most having been rather off-topic recently in my >opinion. > >Wes Is it possible for a discussion to be off-topic if the author who is the topic of the list is participating in the discussion? Claire ponders From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Nov 28 01:15:48 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 01:15:48 -0800 Subject: Domino's Lute In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021127161835.025aacd0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021128011500.029c57a0@localhost> At 09:44 PM 11/27/2002 -0400, Loki wrote: >On 11/27/02 8:20 PM, "Steven Brust" wrote: > > > At 09:34 PM 11/26/2002 -0400, Loki wrote: > >> Buddhism's a religion. However, there's no belief in or reverence for any > >> superhuman powers in it. > > > > Rubbish. Anyone who has even studied Japanese karate knows that there is > > belief in, and certainly reverence for, superhuman powers in > > Buddhism. Indeed, Buddhism, more than any other region that comes to mind, > > is all *about* supernatural powers, revering them, and how to get them for > > yourself. > >Sorry. I spoke poorly. I was meaning power in the sense of entity, rather >than power in the sense of ability. Perhaps a different word other than >power might work better: it's ambiguous. You're probably right. Take it up with American Heritage. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Nov 28 01:17:28 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 01:17:28 -0800 Subject: Domino's Lute In-Reply-To: <20021128030131.GC4346@infodancer.org> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021127161835.025aacd0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20021126145741.0271ed90@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20021127161835.025aacd0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021128011649.029c6d60@localhost> At 09:01 PM 11/27/2002 -0600, Matthew Hunter wrote: >On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 04:20:30PM -0800, Steven Brust > wrote: > > Rubbish. Anyone who has even studied Japanese karate knows that there is > > belief in, and certainly reverence for, superhuman powers in > > Buddhism. Indeed, Buddhism, more than any other region that comes to > mind, > > is all *about* supernatural powers, revering them, and how to get them for > > yourself. > >I suspect you are conflating certain polluting factors in >Japanese religion generally with Buddhism specifically. Buddhism >in its original form is relatively free of supernatural powers; >it deals with "enlightenment" which does not necessarily grant >any special powers, but rather is a product of your own >understanding. Okay, then. Please explain how reincarnation works without defying natural law. From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Nov 28 01:02:27 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 03:02:27 -0600 Subject: There are 201 unread Mail messages in your Inbox In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20021128090226.GA7259@infodancer.org> On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 04:05:01AM -0500, Claire Rojstaczer wrote: > > If you use outlook express, then you won't be waiting an hour to > >download a g'jillion *yes, that is a real number...at least today it > >is :)* emails with most having been rather off-topic recently in my > >opinion. > Is it possible for a discussion to be off-topic if the author who is > the topic of the list is participating in the discussion? Depends on the list. On the Continuing Time list, there were two main threads of discussion: the writing of the author (Daniel Keys Moran) and the (usually political) discussions spawned by those writings. There were enough of the latter, and enough interest in them, to form a separate list based on the first, for explicitly off-topic discussions that included the same basic audience of people who participated in the original list. That model seems to be working pretty well. Disclaimer: I run the spin-off list I mentioned. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Nov 28 01:04:32 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 03:04:32 -0600 Subject: Domino's Lute In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021128011649.029c6d60@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021127161835.025aacd0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20021126145741.0271ed90@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20021127161835.025aacd0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20021128011649.029c6d60@localhost> Message-ID: <20021128090432.GB7259@infodancer.org> On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 01:17:28AM -0800, Steven Brust wrote: > At 09:01 PM 11/27/2002 -0600, Matthew Hunter wrote: > >On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 04:20:30PM -0800, Steven Brust > > wrote: > >> Rubbish. Anyone who has even studied Japanese karate knows that there is > >> belief in, and certainly reverence for, superhuman powers in > >> Buddhism. Indeed, Buddhism, more than any other region that comes to > >mind, > >> is all *about* supernatural powers, revering them, and how to get them > >for > >> yourself. > >I suspect you are conflating certain polluting factors in > >Japanese religion generally with Buddhism specifically. Buddhism > >in its original form is relatively free of supernatural powers; > >it deals with "enlightenment" which does not necessarily grant > >any special powers, but rather is a product of your own > >understanding. > Okay, then. Please explain how reincarnation works without defying natural > law. I did not claim there were no supernatural elements; I don't class reincarnation as a supernatural "power" is the difference. Perhaps that term was confusing the meaning you were trying to get across? It's possible to have supernatural effects without having any supernatural entities or powers. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From chrislee at neo.rr.com Thu Nov 28 03:21:46 2002 From: chrislee at neo.rr.com (chris cunningham) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 06:21:46 -0500 Subject: The Religion Debate References: <20021128004853.23192.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00b901c296d0$56a1bf40$2b20d118@neo.rr.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gametech" > I was recently commissioned to create a website for the Gyuto Wheel of > Dharma Monastery here in Minnesota for a group of Tibetan Buddhists > (refugees) They have a Monastery here in MN. I know little to nothing about > their religion but when I asked what's the goal here what do you guys > basically do the answer I got was: > > We try to teach Compassion and Love as well as promote Peace. The only way > of effective teaching is to demonstrate, near as I can tell they do. > > Now some look at it as propaganda other see it for something else. I'm not > going to 'argue' your opinion. I am curious though how you perceive people > like this to be practicing their religion to be hurting people and > destroying great civilizations. > > What I see are real world actions of placing emphasis on good things (I > don't know anyone who will argue against those things mentioned above Peace, > etc.) even if the tool they use (their religious practices and teachings) > are very superstitious or nonsensical. > > I think what is misunderstood about many people who practice religion is > that they don't always believe every part of the teachings, for many only > the underlying positive points are important (don't hurt other people, treat > others well, unconditional love, etc.). It's a persons free will that > determines what they believe, so maybe what you think is religion hurting > people is really just people believing dumb shit, which will still happen > rampantly without religion however you lose the benefit of them believing > other good things as a side affect of that belief (you can look at it the > other way around as well they want to practice these ideas and they find a > religion they can practice within that meets some goals for them) > > What is so Awfully wrong about religion that counter's in it's entirety the > good aspects of it? in short, the bad aspects of it. it seems to me that you're saying that when people do good things based on their religion, that's a point in favor of their religion, but when people do bad things based on their religion, that's not a point against their religion. and that people will believe "dumb shit," and act accordingly with our without religion, so religion's not to blame. but i can just as easily say that being compassionate, loving, and peaceful doesn't require any belief in "dumb shit," either. come to think of it though, it does seem difficult to pin anything like crusades, inquisitions, support of autocracy/fascism, destruction of indigenous cultures on the buddhists. only thing i've heard is that occasionally a monastery declares war on another monastery and they beat the crap out of each other. maybe i just don't know enough about that side of the world. *shrug* chris cunningham, np: pixies - "caribou" From chrislee at neo.rr.com Thu Nov 28 03:24:16 2002 From: chrislee at neo.rr.com (chris cunningham) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 06:24:16 -0500 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126141008.02583540@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20021127211557.026e3710@localhost> Message-ID: <00ba01c296d0$b043ea00$2b20d118@neo.rr.com> From: "Steven Brust" > >since we would > >have explained everything with science that religion > >sought to answer. I think there are questions that > >are unanswerable by science > > That's true, science can never understand how the solar system works. Oh, > wait. Well, science can never understand what causes polio. Oh, > nuts. Hmmm. Well, science can never understand life. Oh, that > too? Well, I'm sure science can never understand....uh...human > emotion! There we go! And that's where God lives. *whew* Glad we found one. lol! you're a wicked man, jimmy cobham, wicked and keen, like the edge of a knife. chris cunningham np: moby - "natural blues" From chrislee at neo.rr.com Thu Nov 28 04:08:49 2002 From: chrislee at neo.rr.com (chris cunningham) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 07:08:49 -0500 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: <200211261847.gAQIlTAB043480@realtime.exit.com> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127140051.00ab6aa0@dd-b.net> <3DE541E7.3020700@attbi.com> <20021128054744.GB6832@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <00e001c296d6$e8e0a780$2b20d118@neo.rr.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Hunter" To: Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 12:47 AM Subject: Re: Damiano's Lute > On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 11:52:02PM -0600, Lydia Nickerson wrote: > > I'm with DDB on the neurochemistry. Having the last half of my life > > on various psych drugs, I'm fully convinced of the chemistry of my > > existence. There have also been studies, some recent, which suggest > > that religious states, such as deep meditation or prayer or feeling > > like one is speaking directly to god are physical states, ones that > > some people's bodies are designed to accept. A genetic > > predisposition toward God, like I have a genetic predisposition to > > manic depression. > > This doesn't necessary deny the validity of that experience. > Imagine a supremely powerful alien being who wishes to guide > humanity in their evolution. Sometime before the dawn of history > he lands, introduces a genetic change into the species, causing > some humans to build a biological "god receiver" to which he can > broadcast messages when humanity needs a prophet. > > So maybe we can scientifically explain the feelings, but that > doesn't mean they aren't triggered by God. or by satan, or by extra-terrestrials... i see no evidence that human feelings are modified by any unseen, external sources. but even if one chooses to believe that apparently divine messages are externally-sourced, why should it be assumed that such messages are honest, beneficial, or of divine origin? i'm reminded of abraham. > > In many ways, I think it's really really cool that > > we're finding out so much about how the world works, and being able > > to medicate people's brains in more and more precise ways. I don't > > worry about losing my humanity very often. Not yet. The danger will > > come when people stop having the right to choose their own medical > > care. In the mean time, Better Living Through Chemistry! > > In case you haven't noticed, that's already becoming the case. > Read up on ritalin and kids for a good example. > > Personally, I have severe concerns about any sort of compulsory > (or even merely encouraged) regression to some defined > "normality". Diversity of thought and opinion are worthwhile > things; creativity and art are social goods; the existing > structures need to be challenged rather than assumed. ah, now i'm reminded of niven's future, specifically the point when the human race is attacked by the kzinti, and the contributions of hard-charging, creative manic-depressives would be helpful, even necessary, but they're all well-adjusted, well-medicated, placid members of the time's homogenized society. chris cunningham, np: the kinks "picture book" From chrislee at neo.rr.com Thu Nov 28 04:17:43 2002 From: chrislee at neo.rr.com (chris cunningham) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 07:17:43 -0500 Subject: thanksgiving Message-ID: <00f001c296d8$2730b100$2b20d118@neo.rr.com> for me, this day would not be complete without my regularly scheduled contribution: the zucchini bread. just completed my task. time for a little nap. best thanksgiving wishes to all out there, chris cunningham, np: bjork "modern things" From calianng_graves at yahoo.com Thu Nov 28 04:16:35 2002 From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 04:16:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021128121635.57667.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com> I never said that I thought, felt or believed that Him/Her/It/Insert-Your-Pronoun-Here abandoned H/H/I/I's creation(s). I merely said that the imagery associated with such beliefs, which are called Deism, were marginally repungant to me. Hhhhmmm, how would you know whether I have personally spoken with Him/Her/It or not? Perhaps I have and Him/Her/It told me there is no such thing as religion. Then again, it also may have been that trip, Waaa-aaa-aaayy back in college, when I conclusively proved that God is really the Great Rat. Caliann *Owned and Operated by the Grand Poohbah Cheese of the Universe* Gametech wrote: what points to this *may or may not exist god* into it having abandoned his/her/it's creation? What makes you think that it has? Because you haven't personaly spoke with him/her/it? I'd dare say that If god created everything what makes humans more important than the dirt we walk on to god (I'll tell you what, Human arrogance, oh wait nope...)? what about electrons or helium or xyz anything that exists becuase they don't understand god it's all of the sudden abandonment? "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now From calianng_graves at yahoo.com Thu Nov 28 04:28:43 2002 From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 04:28:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021128000238.0260ca30@localhost> Message-ID: <20021128122843.21195.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> At 08:56 PM 11/27/2002 -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > >Maybe. I object strenuously to the whole concept of religion, >spirituality, etc. It's superstitious nonsense, and hurts people, and >destroys great civilizations. People don't kill people....*I* kill people. My poor, overactive imagination....gives me yet another visual. Spirituality destroys great civilizations? I see this army of yoga enthusiasts in front of a great castle...meditating the walls down while convoluting their bodies into unnatural shapes. My history may be somewhat off....but I have never heard of any great civilization destroyed by a nature worship based, non-patriarchial religion. War and aquisition is based on economics and greed. Religion has been known MANY times in the past to provide a handy excuse, (No honey, I'm not going off to Africa to gain gold and plunder...I am going to redeem our Holy City!) but religion is not the underlying cause of it. Religion doesn't harm people, nor does it cause great civilizations to fall. PEOPLE can do that without any help from a Diety. Peace, Caliann *Owned and Operated by the Great poohbah Cheese of the Universe* "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now From calianng_graves at yahoo.com Thu Nov 28 05:02:39 2002 From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 05:02:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <00b901c296d0$56a1bf40$2b20d118@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: <20021128130239.54501.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> chris cunningham wrote: *************************************snip************************************* and that people will believe "dumb shit," and act accordingly with our without religion, so religion's not to blame. but i can just as easily say that being compassionate, loving, and peaceful doesn't require any belief in "dumb shit," either. ***********************************snip***************************************** Hhhmmm, okay, I am about to have a bunch of people come unglued on me, but that is life. When a PERSON does nasty, evil things to another PERSON, the religion they supposedly follow is not to blame. The PERSON who does the nasty, evil things is to blame. When a group of PEOPLE do nasty, evil things to other PEOPLE, their religion is not to blame. The PEOPLE who did those things are to blame. I have yet to see the Scriptures of a major religion propose violence and harm upon others, even those not of their religion. The Bible does not do so. The Quran does not do so. The Talmud does not do so. In fact, in all of them, you will find a LOT of teachings that can be effectively translated as "Will you PLEASE be NICE to each other? Thanks, this is your God." The more I hear of people grumping about the evils of religion, the more I feel sorry for these poor, innocent, historical books that are getting a bad rap because a bunch of greedy nutcases have picked up a copy and have claimed that these books told them to do a lot of evil, nasty things. Religion isn't evil. Religion isn't good. Those poor books do try to tell people to be good, but people have this uncanny knack of seeing only what they want to see. It's not the poor book's fault. I wouldn't have a problem with Christians if they would just follow the teachings of Christ. Christ was a pretty nice guy and I'd probably have fun getting into a theological discussion with him. I wouldn't have a problem with Muslims if they would only follow the teachings of Muhammad. I think Muhammad was a pretty neat guy too....he had a thing for women being warriors. I can get behind that kind of thinking. The existence of a Deity is not provable. The non-existence of a Deity is not provable. ( Learned that in Philosophy 101...man, was my prof a sadist) That some choose to believe in a Deity makes them no better or worse than those who do not. The responsibility for evils committed does not lie with the religion followed by those who perpetrated those evils. It lies with the *people* who committed them. A side note about those poor books that everyone seems to be using as an excuse to do nasty, evil things: Imagine some nutcase reading the Taltos series and deciding that he is now a follower of the Prophet Vlad, who speaks for God, a.k.a. Steve. Now if this looney goes out and kills some people in the name of the Holy Order of Assasination, who is to blame? The nutcase? Or perhaps Steve is to blame for being God? Peace, Caliann Owned and Operated by the Grand Poohbah Cheese of the Universe* "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Nov 28 05:17:41 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 05:17:41 -0800 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <20021128130239.54501.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> References: <00b901c296d0$56a1bf40$2b20d118@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021128050520.02989150@localhost> At 05:02 AM 11/28/2002 -0800, Caliann the Elf wrote: > >The existence of a Deity is not provable. The non-existence of a Deity is >not provable. ( Learned that in Philosophy 101...man, was my prof a >sadist) That some choose to believe in a Deity makes them no better or >worse than those who do not. This is at the heart of this whole conversation. In my opinion, it comes down to the notion that "proof" is something that we do in our heads. We construct a proof that passes certain tests of what we call "logic." How do we know this "logic" makes sense? Easy: we "proved" it in our heads, with logic. Feh. Logic is useful servant but a poor master. We, as human beings, "prove* that our ideas are correct (or incorrect) not by sitting around thinking, but by making actual changes in the world around us in accordance with our ideas. When our ideas are wrong, the world let's us know sooner or later. Usually sooner. Can I "prove* that god does not exist outside of the realm of thought? Well, not by thinking about it! Not within the confines of formal logic. But then, I consider formal logic to be a poor system of thought, because reality doesn't work according to those rules. To the extent that we understand nature, to that extent can we *control* nature--can we make a world in accordance with our wishes. This means understanding the laws of the motion of matter, as complex and varied and wonderful as they are. To introduce into our thoughts idea which do not reflect the world as it is, but, in particular require suspending or denying those very laws, hinders our understanding. The above is by no means a *proof* that god does not exist. I hope it is a step toward an explanation of why I reject him and the Pegasus he rode in on. > >A side note about those poor books that everyone seems to be using as an >excuse to do nasty, evil things: Imagine some nutcase reading the Taltos >series and deciding that he is now a follower of the Prophet Vlad, who >speaks for God, a.k.a. Steve. Now if this looney goes out and kills some >people in the name of the Holy Order of Assasination, who is to >blame? The nutcase? Or perhaps Steve is to blame for being God? > > I am not to blame for being god. The position was forced upon me. From calianng_graves at yahoo.com Thu Nov 28 05:31:27 2002 From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 05:31:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021128050520.02989150@localhost> Message-ID: <20021128133127.54155.qmail@web21109.mail.yahoo.com> Steven Brust wrote: To the extent that we understand nature, to that extent can we *control* nature--can we make a world in accordance with our wishes. This means understanding the laws of the motion of matter, as complex and varied and wonderful as they are. To introduce into our thoughts idea which do not reflect the world as it is, but, in particular require suspending or denying those very laws, hinders our understanding. The above is by no means a *proof* that god does not exist. I hope it is a step toward an explanation of why I reject him and the Pegasus he rode in on. *********************************************************************************** Oh Goddess, I find this hilarious, Steve. I do not find that explaination as "proof" of even why you reject Deity, especially Judeo-Christian Deity. In the very beginning of the Hebrew Scriptures, Genesis, to name the book, it is clearly stated that the world was given to man to change....so that man could exercise his creative processes that were a gift to him FROM God. According to the Bible ( and we won't go into the Quran here), God gave the world as a gift to man to do as he pleased. Man also was gifted with free will. God basically said " Go learn what I have given you...and have a blast with it." Seems to pretty much match what you have said....bar the belief in a Christian God. LOL ************************************************************* I am not to blame for being god. The position was forced upon me. ************************************************************** Now in the several months we have been together, why did you never tell me that the reason you don't believe IN God is because you ARE God? That would have been useful information. Caliann *Owned and Operated by the Grand Poohbah Cheese of the Universe* "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now From calianng_graves at yahoo.com Thu Nov 28 06:05:55 2002 From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 06:05:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Absolutely NOT. In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021128055049.00a7b730@localhost> Message-ID: <20021128140555.75920.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com> Steven Brust wrote: Very funny, girl. Of course I didn't tell you I'm god; you're the one who put me there. Pfffffftttt! *************************************************************************************** Oh no, no, no,no,no,no,no,no,no,NO! You canNOT be my Diety! Oh, no, no! I LIKE you male...and I DON'T want that changed. There are certain things....uuummm...well....just no, okay? Nay, no, nada, naw! Caliann *Owned and Operated by the Grand poohbah Cheese of the Universe* "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Thu Nov 28 08:08:17 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 10:08:17 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: <200211261847.gAQIlTAB043480@realtime.exit.com> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127140051.00ab6aa0@dd-b.net> <3DE541E7.3020700@attbi.com> Message-ID: <3DE63F71.6030103@attbi.com> Lydia asked: >Why do you find what you perceive to be DDB's beliefs to be repellant? Ummm, lessee. He believes that there is no God. My life revolves around my belief in God; I would be crushed if God's non-existence could be somehow proven. He thinks my belief in God is a personality disorder and wants to cure me. Gee. Thanks. That do ya? Mia From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Thu Nov 28 08:11:02 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 10:11:02 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126141008.02583540@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20021127162147.025ab2b0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20021127223605.0260cb70@localhost> Message-ID: <3DE64016.2090608@attbi.com> SKZB said: >You've left out a few steps. Yah, but I haven't *taken* your last steps. Mia From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Nov 28 08:11:45 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 11:11:45 -0500 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <3DE63F71.6030103@attbi.com> Message-ID: <16F805D4-02EC-11D7-ADD4-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Thursday, November 28, 2002, at 11:08 AM, Mia McDavid wrote: > Lydia asked: > > >Why do you find what you perceive to be DDB's beliefs to be repellant? > > Ummm, lessee. He believes that there is no God. My life revolves > around my belief in God; I would be crushed if God's non-existence > could be somehow proven. > > He thinks my belief in God is a personality disorder and wants to cure > me. Gee. Thanks. > > That do ya? > > Mia Yes. --- "I won't eat anything I can't pronounce."---overheard in class From dar at horusinc.com Thu Nov 28 08:21:29 2002 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 10:21:29 -0600 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021128000238.0260ca30@localhost> Message-ID: > At 08:56 PM 11/27/2002 -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > > >Maybe. I object strenuously to the whole concept of religion, > >spirituality, etc. It's superstitious nonsense, and hurts people, and > >destroys great civilizations. > > Okay, but other than that, does it do any harm? Just as importantly, it explains things which are otherwise unexplainable, it helps people, and it builds great civilizations also. David From frank at exit.com Thu Nov 28 09:00:45 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 09:00:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <3DE63F71.6030103@attbi.com> Message-ID: <200211281700.gASH0jdv093188@realtime.exit.com> Mia McDavid wrote: > Lydia asked: > >Why do you find what you perceive to be DDB's beliefs to be repellant? > Ummm, lessee. He believes that there is no God. My life revolves > around my belief in God; I would be crushed if God's non-existence could > be somehow proven. > > He thinks my belief in God is a personality disorder and wants to cure > me. Gee. Thanks. Um, if you would be crushed if God were proven to not exist (which is impossible, but let's set that aside for the moment), then what you have really sounds to _me_ like a crutch, more than anything else. An unhealthy dependence on something (perceived to be) outside yourself. Just the same as if I were to be crushed if, say, my wife left me. (Really happened about seven years ago, in fact. I was. It was unhealthy from the getgo.) Your belief itself may not be a disorder, but the fact that you feel that without it you couldn't function is pretty unhealthy, IMNSHO. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Thu Nov 28 09:27:05 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 09:27:05 -0800 Subject: Domino's Lute In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021128000505.0275a2d0@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021128000505.0275a2d0@localhost> Message-ID: <20021128172705.GA24049@ofb.net> On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 12:09:35AM -0800, Steven Brust wrote: > Remember, this part of the discussion revolved around my claim that the > word "religion" implies the belief in something superhuman, and some else's > claim that, by this definition, Buddhism is not a religion. I insist that, > by this definition, it is. That's my only claim on this issue. Right, there's more to the science/religion debate than God. Science has to bail out on the First Cause (not that anyone else has anything concrete to say about it) but can be pretty darn confident IMNSHO about their being no room or need for a soul. Well, maybe I'm projecting here, but it does seem this way to me. OTOH, Steve, I think your insistence about Buddhism revering superhuman powers was a bit confusing. Supernatural elements, yeah, and as I said a lot of powers where Buddhism has usually been practised, but people over here probably usually don't think in terms of hells and demons and flying Wu Don masters... -xx- Damien X-) From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Thu Nov 28 09:51:47 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 11:51:47 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: <200211281700.gASH0jdv093188@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <3DE657B3.40402@attbi.com> Frank said: >Your belief itself may not be a disorder, but the fact that you feel >that >without it you couldn't function is pretty unhealthy, IMNSHO. No, no. It's not my *belief* I can't live without--it's God! Mia From unitcancellation at hotmail.com Thu Nov 28 09:52:58 2002 From: unitcancellation at hotmail.com (Alex Nixon) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 13:52:58 -0400 Subject: The Religion Debate Message-ID: I can't believe that I'm getting involved in this discussion, especially given how little I've read of it. Still, here it goes. David, your belief that Religion is to blame for hurting people and causing the destruction of great civilizations is fallacious. It wasn't religion, spirituality, or the belief in the supernatural that did that- it was people. Religion is merely an institution, a way of looking at the world, a vehicle for one's actions. It is not an independant, thinking entity. If we follow your logic, we might as well blame science for Nuclear warfare and the harm it has visited upon the human populace. I prefer to place blame upon the psychos who use it. Furthermore, religion has been used as a vehicle for great achievements such as the Ancient Egyptian society, amazing works of art (Milton, Homer, Shakespeare), philosophical treaties, and charitable works. Therefore, I feel that religion is like all human endeavors: flawed, with many questionable actions but with an equal number of actions that were unquestionably good and altruistic in nature. BTW, I'm Agnostic. If you feel that my beliefs have any relevance in this discussion. Alex Postscript: I'm sorry if I'm repeating anybody in my spiel. ----Original Message Follows---- From: Steven Brust To: David Dyer-Bennet , dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: The Religion Debate Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 00:02:58 -0800 At 08:56 PM 11/27/2002 -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > >Maybe. I object strenuously to the whole concept of religion, >spirituality, etc. It's superstitious nonsense, and hurts people, and >destroys great civilizations. Okay, but other than that, does it do any harm? _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From casey at trinityhartford.org Thu Nov 28 09:53:11 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 12:53:11 -0500 Subject: There are 201 unread Mail messages in your Inbox In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c29707$08b6d400$a902a8c0@KCRINSP8200> Claire wrote: > Is it possible for a discussion to be off-topic if the author who is > the topic of the list is participating in the discussion? Not to mention if the author in question wrote a whole novel with this topic playing a prominent role! From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Thu Nov 28 09:56:57 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 11:56:57 -0600 Subject: Turkey Message-ID: <3DE658E9.3070309@attbi.com> For me, the be-all and end-all is a free-range, fresh-killed (and I don't mean "fresh" as in has had ice crystals in its gizzard for two weeks) turkey, which I *finally* scored in the Twin Cities!!! Oyster dressing has a very creditable source; I found it in Joy of Cooking. Of course, anyone who doesn't like oysters shouldn't go there... Glenn was responsible for the forcemeat under the skin of the breast--sausage, herbs, and seasonings. We feel this is particularly important with free-range birds, which do not have fist-sized clumps of fat in all the crevices. I'll let y-all know how it turned out. Happy Thanksgiving (or whatever you call it when there's nobody to give thanks to! ;-> ) Mia From chrislee at neo.rr.com Thu Nov 28 10:25:43 2002 From: chrislee at neo.rr.com (chris cunningham) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 13:25:43 -0500 Subject: Domino's Lute References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021128000505.0275a2d0@localhost> <20021128172705.GA24049@ofb.net> Message-ID: <005301c2970b$906b9800$2b20d118@neo.rr.com> From: "Damien Sullivan" > Right, there's more to the science/religion debate than God. Science has to > bail out on the First Cause (not that anyone else has anything concrete to say > about it) but can be pretty darn confident IMNSHO about their being no room or > need for a soul. Well, maybe I'm projecting here, but it does seem this way > to me. two quibbles: "...bail out on the first cause, so far,..." and i'd replace "no room or need" with "no evidence." > OTOH, Steve, I think your insistence about Buddhism revering superhuman powers > was a bit confusing. Supernatural elements, yeah, and as I said a lot of > powers where Buddhism has usually been practised, but people over here > probably usually don't think in terms of hells and demons and flying Wu Don > masters... but they do believe in reincarnation? what then does buddhism posit, if anything, as the origin of this supernatural process of transplantation of memories and/or personality? or do they bail on first cause arguments, too? chris cunningham, np: grateful dead "black peter" From pgranzeau at cox.net Thu Nov 28 09:48:58 2002 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 12:48:58 -0500 Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. In-Reply-To: <20021127223712.GB4346@infodancer.org> References: <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20021128124704.01da04b0@pop.east.cox.net> At 16:37 11/27/2002 -0600, Matthew Hunter wrote: >While I agree with the sentiment that God has a lot of hard >questions to answer, taking responsibility for his creations is >not on the same level. Are you responsible for the actions of >your children once they reach adulthood and attain free will? No, but then again, I am not omnipotent, either. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From pgranzeau at cox.net Thu Nov 28 10:01:50 2002 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 13:01:50 -0500 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <020201c2964b$e3e5d880$2b20d118@neo.rr.com> References: <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <15843.46891.246035.618358@gw.dd-b.net> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20021128130058.01da7c60@pop.east.cox.net> At 14:33 11/27/2002 -0500, chris cunningham wrote: >From: "David Dyer-Bennet" > > And, unlike god, there aren't people questioning the very existence of > > emacs. > >god is questioning the existence of emacs? >man, he *is* out of the loop :) A sanity-protecting attitude, methinks. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From pgranzeau at cox.net Thu Nov 28 10:14:51 2002 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 13:14:51 -0500 Subject: Liver In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20021127131646.01db55b0@pop.east.cox.net> <3DE413A3.4000504@attbi.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20021127131646.01db55b0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20021128131038.01dabaa0@pop.east.cox.net> At 12:42 11/27/2002 -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > Time for my liver story, I guess. > >The worst "liver night" story I know: > Ah, chicken liver. It's usually one of the solid bits in the gravy in my house. The sister's eventual cure for Liver Night was how I finally got my parents to stop trying to make me eat asparagus, by the way. Mom's liver was calf's liver. Great big things. When I got to college, they used to serve it buried in fried onions. I tried it, once. It was still liver, and they also offered hamburger for those who dislike liver. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From seanp at ea.com Thu Nov 28 10:33:55 2002 From: seanp at ea.com (Penney, Sean) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 10:33:55 -0800 Subject: The Religion Debate Message-ID: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F5954D@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> >> >Maybe. I object strenuously to the whole concept of religion, >> >spirituality, etc. It's superstitious nonsense, and hurts people, and >> >destroys great civilizations. > >>> Okay, but other than that, does it do any harm? ====== >Just as importantly, it explains things which are otherwise unexplainable, >it helps people, and it builds great civilizations also. I wonder - is it possible for a civilization to develop to a "high" state without religion? The South American civilizations, the Egyptians, Sumerians (O.T. - I've read that the Sumerians were matriarchal) - all these civilizations used religion as a catapult to greatness. The pyramids of Egypt and the ziggurats of S. America would not have been built without faith in something. The Greeks and Romans were well down the civilized path before they turned their backs on their Gods, much like modern civilization, but their civilizations were toppled/fragmented/absorbed by less "advanced" races who brought their own gods with them. I wonder where we would be on the "religion" question if the golden age of western civilization had continued uninterrupted to present day - if there had never been a "Dark Ages". From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Thu Nov 28 10:46:57 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 10:46:57 -0800 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F5954D@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> References: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F5954D@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Message-ID: <20021128184657.GA28213@ofb.net> On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 10:33:55AM -0800, Penney, Sean wrote: > I wonder - is it possible for a civilization to develop to a "high" state > without religion? The South American civilizations, the Egyptians, > Sumerians (O.T. - I've read that the Sumerians were matriarchal) - all these > civilizations used religion as a catapult to greatness. The pyramids of > Egypt and the ziggurats of S. America would not have been built without > faith in something. This cuts both ways. "Oh no, we wouldn't have built giant useless piles of rock without religion!" Do you consider modern Western civilization to be 'high'? Religion is still prominent, but has been decreasingly relevant for motivating large projects (Hoover Dam, English Chunnel, moon landings) or the science, wealth, and technology which are our real claim to highness. Certainly there aren't older examples of religion-less high civilizations -- but there aren't older examples of religion-less civilizations, period. -xx- Damien X-) From rone at ennui.org Thu Nov 28 11:03:29 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 11:03:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: from David Dyer-Bennet at "Nov 27, 2002 05:14:11 pm" Message-ID: <20021128190329.6AEB526E2A@boredom.ennui.org> David Dyer-Bennet writes: Mia McDavid writes: > There's a famous quote that says "Faith is the substance of things > hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." DDB has his own > faith--similar to Asimov or Roddenberry, he seems to believe in the > future of humankind, ever evolving toward something wiser and more > rational. I find his faith quite as repellent as he finds mine. As > to whose hopes will be rewarded, we just don't know yet, do we? I have no such faith, sorry. I have *hope*, a very different thing. Faith, for me, is one of the dirtiest of dirty words. I think faith is more like a strong combination of hope and trust. And there's nothing dirty about it, if you deploy it sensibly. I like to say that getting to know my wife and marrying her reawakened my dormant faith. The fact that i can trust her, and depend on her, without actually /expecting/ things out of her, is very reassuring. And the fact that she can have the same faith in me is very comforting. It doesn't matter that we're human and fallible; that's just part of it. If we were infallible, why would we need faith? We'd just know. Hmm, maybe that's how it works for people who believe in God, too. rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From rone at ennui.org Thu Nov 28 11:16:09 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 11:16:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <20021128054744.GB6832@infodancer.org> from Matthew Hunter at "Nov 27, 2002 11:47:44 pm" Message-ID: <20021128191609.48DD126E2B@boredom.ennui.org> Matthew Hunter writes: Imagine a supremely powerful alien being who wishes to guide humanity in their evolution. That reminds me of Robert Sawyer's "Calculating God". A bit loosey-goosey in the end, but not a bad read. rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From frank at exit.com Thu Nov 28 11:19:12 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 11:19:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <3DE657B3.40402@attbi.com> Message-ID: <200211281919.gASJJCgi096033@realtime.exit.com> Mia McDavid wrote: > Frank said: > >Your belief itself may not be a disorder, but the fact that you feel >that > >without it you couldn't function is pretty unhealthy, IMNSHO. > No, no. It's not my *belief* I can't live without--it's God! It amounts to the same thing. Were God proven to not exist, you would have already been living without him; it's your belief that would cease. As for your comment regarding those "who have no one to thank," don't you think that one may be thankful in general even though one has no one in particular to thank for it? -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From seanp at ea.com Thu Nov 28 11:29:52 2002 From: seanp at ea.com (Penney, Sean) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 11:29:52 -0800 Subject: The Religion Debate Message-ID: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F59550@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Thursday, November 28, 2002 10:47 AM: Damien Sullivan On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 10:33:55AM -0800, Penney, Sean wrote: >> I wonder - is it possible for a civilization to develop to a "high" state >> without religion? The South American civilizations, the Egyptians, >> Sumerians (O.T. - I've read that the Sumerians were matriarchal) - all these >> civilizations used religion as a catapult to greatness. The pyramids of >> Egypt and the ziggurats of S. America would not have been built without >> faith in something. >This cuts both ways. "Oh no, we wouldn't have built giant useless piles of >rock without religion!" Not sure what you're saying here - if I take out the negatives I think it means "because of religion we have built giant monuments". I think this is what I stated above. >Do you consider modern Western civilization to be 'high'? Religion is still >prominent, but has been decreasingly relevant for motivating large projects >(Hoover Dam, English Chunnel, moon landings) or the science, wealth, and >technology which are our real claim to highness. I guess it depends on the measuring stick. I would try not to compare modern civilization to the ancient ones I mentioned - at least I would not measure them with the same stick. >Certainly there aren't older examples of religion-less high civilizations -- >but there aren't older examples of religion-less civilizations, period. Well that's pretty much what I was asking - can a civilization attain a state beyond that of mud huts and root grubbing without religion? Is religion necessary as a catalyst to great works in architecture, social engineering and art? All evidence seems to point towards religion being an intrinsic part of the formula. I was wondering if anyone knew of any exceptions. FYI - I am most certainly not a proponent of religion in any form. From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Nov 28 12:10:31 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 14:10:31 -0600 Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20021128124704.01da04b0@pop.east.cox.net> References: <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20021128124704.01da04b0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <20021128201031.GA13958@infodancer.org> On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 12:48:58PM -0500, "Peter H. Granzeau" wrote: > At 16:37 11/27/2002 -0600, Matthew Hunter wrote: > >While I agree with the sentiment that God has a lot of hard > >questions to answer, taking responsibility for his creations is > >not on the same level. Are you responsible for the actions of > >your children once they reach adulthood and attain free will? > No, but then again, I am not omnipotent, either. Does it matter? You are not responsible for the actions of others. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Nov 28 12:17:11 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 14:17:11 -0600 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F5954D@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> References: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F5954D@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Message-ID: <20021128201711.GB13958@infodancer.org> On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 10:33:55AM -0800, "Penney, Sean" wrote: > I wonder - is it possible for a civilization to develop to a > "high" state without religion? Perhaps it's a necessary bootstrap and social meme. However, there comes a point past which you no longer need religion to advance further -- though you may need it as a form of socialization and a check on the worst impulses of human behavior, still. The jury is still out on that. > The South American civilizations, the Egyptians, Sumerians > (O.T. - I've read that the Sumerians were matriarchal) - all > these civilizations used religion as a catapult to greatness. Not really... I don't define greatness by pyramids and ziggurats. > The pyramids of Egypt and the ziggurats of S. America would not > have been built without faith in something. They *could* have been built. They *would not* have been built. While they are rather impressive to look at, they didn't really provide commensurate benefits to civilization. I'd rather spend those resources on science, space, and similar things that provide a real return. > The Greeks and Romans were well down the civilized path before > they turned their backs on their Gods, much like modern > civilization, but their civilizations were > toppled/fragmented/absorbed by less "advanced" races who > brought their own gods with them. The romans were an official Christian empire when they fell, remember. > I wonder where we would be on the "religion" question if the > golden age of western civilization had continued uninterrupted > to present day - if there had never been a "Dark Ages". Probably about where we are today -- focused on scientific exploration, with religion an afterthought and a mumbled prayer once in a while. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From davids at kithrup.com Thu Nov 28 13:04:23 2002 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 13:04:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thanks. Message-ID: Things I am thankful for: 1) I am thankful that we live in a high-tech society where this sort of discussion is even physically possible. 2) I am thankful that we can have a long debate on religion without anyone being in danger of being arrested and charged with heresy, blasphemy or just plain being of the wrong religion (or lack of religion, or having religion at all). 3) I am thankful that for the most part, this discussion has been intelligent, civil & courteous. I hate flamefests. 4) I am *deeply* thankful that I am not a turkey (and neither is anyone else I know). "WHAT IS THIS DANCE?" "Harvest dance. You know? It's tradition. When the harvest is in. It's sort of a celebration, and like a thanksgiving." "THANKSGIVING TO WHO?" "Dunno. No one in particular, I reckon. Just general thankfulness, I suppose." -- Death & Mrs. Flitworth, from "Reaper Man", by Terry Pratchett. From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Thu Nov 28 13:41:31 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 15:41:31 -0600 Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. References: <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20021128124704.01da04b0@pop.east.cox.net> <20021128201031.GA13958@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 12:48:58PM -0500, "Peter H. Granzeau" > wrote: >> At 16:37 11/27/2002 -0600, Matthew Hunter wrote: >>> While I agree with the sentiment that God has a lot of hard >>> questions to answer, taking responsibility for his creations is >>> not on the same level. Are you responsible for the actions of >>> your children once they reach adulthood and attain free will? No, >>> but then again, I am not omnipotent, either. > > Does it matter? > > You are however responsible for the influence you have over someone (your direct actions usually caused it, not always mind you but mostly) and your kids are especially susceptible to your influence. while the statement You are not responsible for the actions of others may be true always it's almost always misused, mostly it's used to defend one's innocence for having no ability to control another person therefore he shouldn't be subject to the responsibility. It's like saying Verra shared no responsibility (based on her influence) for the king of Elde island being assassinated. Ha! If your action brings enough influence over someone else's actions (maybe saying consciously is important, then again maybe not) do in fact share some of the responsibility of that action. Here's proof positive, at least in our justice system: Hiring a hit man is a crime, Being a hit man is crime, when they catch the hit man the hit man can be treated as it was less of a crime to divulge the 'boss guy who hired him' You are not responsible for the actions of others: It's a statement that in of itself can't be argued with and I generally believe to be true as well, it's usage is constantly abused. You can certainly be completely responsible for the re-actions of someone to you, that is how self defense is explained, walk youself through it if you need to. From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Thu Nov 28 13:43:44 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 15:43:44 -0600 Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. References: <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20021128124704.01da04b0@pop.east.cox.net> <20021128201031.GA13958@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 12:48:58PM -0500, "Peter H. Granzeau" > wrote: >> At 16:37 11/27/2002 -0600, Matthew Hunter wrote: >>> While I agree with the sentiment that God has a lot of hard >>> questions to answer, taking responsibility for his creations is >>> not on the same level. Are you responsible for the actions of >>> your children once they reach adulthood and attain free will? No, >>> but then again, I am not omnipotent, either. > > Does it matter? > > You are not responsible for the actions of others. Excuse the last post of mine it was replied to one reply sooner than itshould have been it was in reply to this topic You are however responsible for the influence you have over someone (your direct actions usually caused it, not always mind you but mostly) and your kids are especially susceptible to your influence. while the statement You are not responsible for the actions of others may be true always it's almost always misused, mostly it's used to defend one's innocence for having no ability to control another person therefore he shouldn't be subject to the responsibility. It's like saying Verra shared no responsibility (based on her influence) for the king of Elde island being assassinated. Ha! If your action brings enough influence over someone else's actions (maybe saying consciously is important, then again maybe not) do in fact share some of the responsibility of that action. Here's proof positive, at least in our justice system: Hiring a hit man is a crime, Being a hit man is crime, when they catch the hit man the hit man can be treated as it was less of a crime to divulge the 'boss guy who hired him' You are not responsible for the actions of others: It's a statement that in of itself can't be argued with and I generally believe to be true as well, it's usage is constantly abused. You can certainly be completely responsible for the re-actions of someone to you, that is how self defense is explained, walk youself through it if you need to. From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Thu Nov 28 13:47:09 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 15:47:09 -0600 Subject: Thanks. References: Message-ID: David Silberstein wrote: > Things I am thankful for: > > 1) I am thankful that we live in a high-tech society where this sort > of discussion is even physically possible. > > 2) I am thankful that we can have a long debate on religion without > anyone being in danger of being arrested and charged with heresy, > blasphemy or just plain being of the wrong religion (or lack of > religion, or having religion at all). > > 3) I am thankful that for the most part, this discussion has been > intelligent, civil & courteous. I hate flamefests. > > 4) I am *deeply* thankful that I am not a turkey (and neither is > anyone else I know). > These are all things I agree with, thanks for putting it so nicely :) From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Nov 28 13:49:12 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 16:49:12 -0500 Subject: Thanks. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3B0852CC-031B-11D7-ADD4-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Thursday, November 28, 2002, at 04:47 PM, Gametech wrote: > David Silberstein wrote: >> Things I am thankful for: >> >> 1) I am thankful that we live in a high-tech society where this sort >> of discussion is even physically possible. >> >> 2) I am thankful that we can have a long debate on religion without >> anyone being in danger of being arrested and charged with heresy, >> blasphemy or just plain being of the wrong religion (or lack of >> religion, or having religion at all). >> >> 3) I am thankful that for the most part, this discussion has been >> intelligent, civil & courteous. I hate flamefests. >> >> 4) I am *deeply* thankful that I am not a turkey (and neither is >> anyone else I know). >> > > These are all things I agree with, thanks for putting it so nicely :) > Ditto here. Having just spent the last year writing my second novel about the life of Jesus, I am sick of religion. I am thankful I could delete all these emails, heh. ---- "Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself (I am large, I contain multitudes)"--Walt Whitman From rone at ennui.org Thu Nov 28 13:52:36 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 13:52:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <200211281700.gASH0jdv093188@realtime.exit.com> from Frank Mayhar at "Nov 28, 2002 09:00:45 am" Message-ID: <20021128215236.86CE626E2C@boredom.ennui.org> Frank Mayhar writes: Your belief itself may not be a disorder, but the fact that you feel that without it you couldn't function is pretty unhealthy, IMNSHO. Given how important God is to those who do believe in him, your opinion is fairly impolite. If i were to lose my wife, say, i would have a hard time functioning. I'd get over it eventually, sure, but she is only human. To lose one's god should damn well be a major problem. Try to be a little more sensitive. rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From electrictwilight at hotmail.com Thu Nov 28 14:00:22 2002 From: electrictwilight at hotmail.com (H. T.) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 22:00:22 +0000 Subject: Domino's Lute Message-ID: >>>"Steven Brust" wrote: > >And I'm really curious about how you're going to come up with a definition >of the rebirth of the human soul that doesn't involve the supernatural. Oh, I have no explanation for this, I believe reincarnation does/would/must involve some sort of supernatural power. The theology of it would not make sense otherwise. >>>Buddhism, more than any other region that comes to mind, is all *about* >>>supernatural powers, revering them, and how to get them for yourself. > >Remember, this part of the discussion revolved around my claim that the >word "religion" implies the belief in something superhuman, and some else's >claim that, by this definition, Buddhism is not a religion. I insist that, >by this definition, it is. That's my only claim on this issue. Ahhh, I see, well then, I did forget myself, and I stand corrected. In that regard I must agree that Buddhism is a religion even by that standard. Even with my limited knowledge of Buddhism I would say Buddhist certainly believe in the super-human/supernatural. I believe, your choice of words had left me confused, (and since I believe I saw one other held a similar position to my own, perhaps others too), in that they implied that Buddhist seek to obtain super-natural power in the way that, se, Foulcant would claim certain members of society seek to obtain power on a societal level. My apologies. _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From rone at ennui.org Thu Nov 28 14:10:52 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 14:10:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. In-Reply-To: <20021127223712.GB4346@infodancer.org> from Matthew Hunter at "Nov 27, 2002 04:37:12 pm" Message-ID: <20021128221052.B8B2126E2B@boredom.ennui.org> Matthew Hunter writes: Are you responsible for the actions of your children once they reach adulthood and attain free will? This is a terrible assumption, in my opinion. Nobody attains free will ("free will" itself is a canard, painted as an opposite to "fate", when they're really the same damned thing); we're born with the ability to make decisions, and as our mind develops, we can make more complex decisions. "Adulthood" as it exists in most of Western civilization is pretty broken, too; upon puberty, we should be helping kids to start making 'adult' decisions, but instead we continue to treat them as children. Then 18 rolls along and we suddenly let go. "You're on your own!" I think adults are responsible, to some degree, for how their children behave, but not for their actions. If that makes any sense. rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From rone at ennui.org Thu Nov 28 14:11:53 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 14:11:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20021128124704.01da04b0@pop.east.cox.net> from "Peter H. Granzeau" at "Nov 28, 2002 12:48:58 pm" Message-ID: <20021128221153.C71B926E2C@boredom.ennui.org> Peter H. Granzeau writes: At 16:37 11/27/2002 -0600, Matthew Hunter wrote: >While I agree with the sentiment that God has a lot of hard >questions to answer, taking responsibility for his creations is >not on the same level. Are you responsible for the actions of >your children once they reach adulthood and attain free will? No, but then again, I am not omnipotent, either. Slacker. rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Thu Nov 28 16:30:51 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 18:30:51 -0600 Subject: Thanks. References: Message-ID: <3DE6B53B.3090704@attbi.com> In fact, the discussion has been a miracle (sorry 'bout that. Habit) of intelligence and civility. The fact that many of hold opposite opinions ardently and we have been discussing this for 48 hours without resorting to name-calling and abuse makes this the most civilized list I've ever been on. The turkey came out great, btw. Might still try brining next year, just to see what that does. Mia From mam at theworld.com Thu Nov 28 16:55:40 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 19:55:40 -0500 Subject: Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: <200211270013.gAR0DDu03983@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: #> What?? How can anyone NOT like New England cooking? :-) # #That depends... Are we comparing it to, say, New Orleans #cooking? # #And, as an aside, the first time I went to Boston (I've #lived on the West Coast) I missed my chance at Clam Chowder #the first night. Ahhhh... when I saw "Clam Chowder" with capital letters, I assumed that (as I try to skim through nearly 500 mails in my inbox) this was from a filker and referred to the great musical group of that name (not particularly filk, but very much liked by many filkers). -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname http://world.std.com/~mam/filk.html From andrew at networkharmoni.com.au Thu Nov 28 17:04:19 2002 From: andrew at networkharmoni.com.au (Andrew Bailey) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 09:04:19 +0800 Subject: The Religion Debate References: <00b901c296d0$56a1bf40$2b20d118@neo.rr.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20021128050520.02989150@localhost> Message-ID: <3DE6BD13.7020901@networkharmoni.com.au> Steven Brust wrote: > At 05:02 AM 11/28/2002 -0800, Caliann the Elf wrote: > >> >> The existence of a Deity is not provable. The non-existence of a >> Deity is not provable. ( Learned that in Philosophy 101...man, was my >> prof a sadist) That some choose to believe in a Deity makes them no >> better or worse than those who do not. > > > This is at the heart of this whole conversation. In my opinion, it > comes down to the notion that "proof" is something that we do in our > heads. We construct a proof that passes certain tests of what we call > "logic." How do we know this "logic" makes sense? Easy: we "proved" it > in our heads, with logic. > Logic generally works, the assumptions underlying a particular argument can often be dubious. > Feh. > > Logic is useful servant but a poor master. We, as human beings, "prove* > that our ideas are correct (or incorrect) not by sitting around > thinking, but by making actual changes in the world around us in > accordance with our ideas. When our ideas are wrong, the world let's us > know sooner or later. Usually sooner. > Yes and no. Often we do use experimental evidence to back up ideas, sometimes its just too damn hard. This doesn't always mean the idea is incorrect. And sometimes both are very hard, this is known as the Fermats a bastard clause:) > Can I "prove* that god does not exist outside of the realm of thought? > Well, not by thinking about it! Not within the confines of formal > logic. But then, I consider formal logic to be a poor system of > thought, because reality doesn't work according to those rules. > Well no, but then again you can't *prove* that anything exists outside your own head, we just assume it does, otherwise its all a bit silly and pointless really. Formal logic is just like any tool, and it can be incredibly useful for moving from facts that you accept to new facts and it works. And that progression doesn't neccessarily have to happen in your own head. > To the extent that we understand nature, to that extent can we *control* > nature--can we make a world in accordance with our wishes. This means > understanding the laws of the motion of matter, as complex and varied > and wonderful as they are. To introduce into our thoughts idea which do > not reflect the world as it is, but, in particular require suspending or > denying those very laws, hinders our understanding. Depends on what you mean by God. Some peoples definitions of God do not deny the laws of nature as we know them, but rather center on God being an Experience. Does that require a denial of these laws or does it hinder our understanding. In general terms, my issues with religion stem from the social and political structures that religous and other ideologies have a nasty tendancy to adopt. In general there are individuals who are appointed as gatekeepers to enlightenment, for want of a better word. This individuals control access to whatever it is that important to that ideology wheather it be salvation or knowledge or something else entirely. I find that this appointment often is undemocratic and arbitary and I feel that giving people power in an undemocratic and an arbitary manner is problematic to say the least. > > The above is by no means a *proof* that god does not exist. I hope it > is a step toward an explanation of why I reject him and the Pegasus he > rode in on. > And a fair explanation it was too. Thankyou for sharing. > > I am not to blame for being god. > > The position was forced upon me. > Well you wouldn't be the first genre author to start a religion:) I will get worried when you start living on a boat[1]. Andrew. [1] If only cause I have read Last Call :) From mam at theworld.com Thu Nov 28 17:08:33 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 20:08:33 -0500 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: <00e901c29533$824054c0$18a231d2@valadan> Message-ID: [David Rodemaker?] #> I can't think of medium-to-large 'sized' concept from Christianity #> that I cannot find without difficulty in LOTR. [Baralier] #And I can find Judaic concepts in Christian Myths. I can find Druidic #concepts in Christian Myths. I can find Wiccan concepts in Christian #Myths. I can find Buddhist concepts in Christian Myths. # #This does not make Christianity Pagan or Buddhist any more than #finding Christian concepts in LotR makes it a "Christian" work. W.r.t. allegory, Tolkien said somewhere that there is a world of difference between what a reader reads into a work and what the writer wrote into it. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Thu Nov 28 17:17:45 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 20:17:45 -0500 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ooh! Ooh! I'm sorry, but Dr. Whom can't resist this pair: [attribution lost] #>Yes, but the word was unbeleivable. ** That's unbelIEvable -- [Julie Alipaz] # actually, inconcieveable ** And *that's* inconcEIveable -- All together, now, class: I before E, except after C or when pronounced "ay", as in "neighbor" and "weigh". (Or any other time that it's followed by "gh", as in "height" and in some other words that you just have to call exceptions, like "seize".) -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Thu Nov 28 17:19:43 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 20:19:43 -0500 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Nytemuse wrote: #Hey! Not all of us have finished the LotR trilogy! True, I'm working my [....] #Spoiler space next time, please? Whoops! Sorry. It's easy for old-timers like me to forget that there are fen who are rabid enough to be on this list who still haven't gotten through some of the classics. And that is not meant as any kind of putdown, Nytemuse, but simply as what it says. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mam at theworld.com Thu Nov 28 18:25:59 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 21:25:59 -0500 Subject: new filk on FHYA Message-ID: I'm currently AFB (away from books) and I haven't reread FHYA in a while, but I think this is close enough to accuracy for "folk song". At The Seventeenth Cycle's End Mark A. Mandel Copr. 2002 Ttto In Good Old Colony Times, trad. Based on Steven Brust's _Five Hundred Years After_ (Note: "Jhereg" is pronounced "zhuh-REG", where "zh" is the sound of "s" in "pleasure", and accented on the second syllable, roughly rhyming with "break a leg" as said to an actor or an enforcer.) At the Seventeenth Cycle's end With the Phoenix fated to fail A Jhereg, a Tiassa, and a Dragon proud Were part of a tragic tale Part of a tragic tale A Jhereg, a Tiassa, and a Dragon proud Were part of a tragic tale The Jhereg was betrayed by his House The Tiassa by the great And the Dragon was betrayed by his soaring pride And the twisted workings of fate [repeat as above] The Jhereg got his revenge The Tiassa his reward And the Dragon was dissolved in swirling Chaos When he tried to take the Orb Now, nobody's seen the Jhereg The Tiassa can still draw blood And the Dragon's ghost haunts the Lesser Sea of Chaos Where Dragaera City once stood -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname http://world.std.com/~mam/filk.html http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Thu Nov 28 18:36:17 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 18:36:17 -0800 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F59550@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> References: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F59550@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Message-ID: <20021129023617.GA331@ofb.net> On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 11:29:52AM -0800, Penney, Sean wrote: > Thursday, November 28, 2002 10:47 AM: Damien Sullivan > >> civilizations used religion as a catapult to greatness. The pyramids of > >> Egypt and the ziggurats of S. America would not have been built without > >> faith in something. > > >This cuts both ways. "Oh no, we wouldn't have built giant useless piles of > >rock without religion!" > > Not sure what you're saying here - if I take out the negatives I think it > means "because of religion we have built giant monuments". I think this is > what I stated above. The negatives were the point. It's traditional to see giant useless piles of rock as a sign of high civilization because they're obvious and impressive and still around -- hard to do much to a pile of rock -- and obviously at least took a lot of organization. But if you think about the utility of giant piles of rock, you can see pyramids and ziggurats as signs of decay or stagnation. A religionless civilization at the same tech level might both have accomplished more in terms of quality of life and not left giant monuments to impress us with, because of the lack of religion. Or for a different phrasing, "yes, you can have high civilization without religion, it just won't be a high civilization which leaves giant piles of rock saying 'Dig here' around." > Well that's pretty much what I was asking - can a civilization attain a > state beyond that of mud huts and root grubbing without religion? Is > religion necessary as a catalyst to great works in architecture, social > engineering and art? All evidence seems to point towards religion being an > intrinsic part of the formula. I was wondering if anyone knew of any > exceptions. I don't, but I'm not sure what it means. Like I said, religion is an intrinsic part of all the formulas, high civilizations or not. It's not like there was some religionless state which didn't advance beyond mud huts and root grubbing; there just weren't any religionless states, until recently, and not entirely even now. -xx- Damien X-) From tyan at twcny.rr.com Thu Nov 28 19:20:53 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 22:20:53 -0500 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) In-Reply-To: (David Dyer-Bennet's message of "Wed, 27 Nov 2002 17:04:03 -0600") References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <15843.46891.246035.618358@gw.dd-b.net> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127153459.00a5b510@dd-b.net> Message-ID: (Heavy snipping by TKY.) First, a suggestion. When you intentionally send a private reply, please try to say so, so the recipient doesn't have to query you to check if you meant it to be private rather than public. [re: List headers should have the list address set as reply-to] Lydia Nickerson wrote of DDB: >> > > Actually, what's going on is that you have certain immovable opinions >> > > based on those observable, measurable facts, not quite the same thing. David Dyer-Bennet replied: >> >You do understand that that's a top-level nasty accusation in my >> >world, right? Notice that, even in responding to the poke here in the >> >list, I didn't actually claim that the evidence was overwhelming and >> >only an idiot could disagree. David Dyer-Bennet clarified: > It's the word "immovable" that I'm taking issue with. Well, it won't necessarily convince anyone, but let's have a little poll: 1. Have you accidentally sent a private reply instead of posting to the list? 1'. Have you accidentally posted to the list instead of sending a private reply? 2. Have you received an accidental private reply that was meant to go to the list? 3. When you get a message that was sent to you instead of the list, do you feel obliged to query the sender to ask him or her if it was meant to private instead of to the list? 4. Has the Reply-To behavior of this list caused you confusion when posting to other mailing lists, perhaps even causing you to accidentally send a private e-mail instead of posting or vice versa? 5. How do you feel about the Reply-To behavior of this list? Do you + love it + like it + don't much care + dislike it + hate it + hate it, Hate It, HATE IT! I'll post my answers in a follow-up. - tky From tyan at twcny.rr.com Thu Nov 28 19:29:29 2002 From: tyan at twcny.rr.com (Thomas Yan) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 22:29:29 -0500 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) In-Reply-To: (Thomas Yan's message of "Thu, 28 Nov 2002 22:20:53 -0500") References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <15843.46891.246035.618358@gw.dd-b.net> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127153459.00a5b510@dd-b.net> Message-ID: Thomas Yan writes: > 1. Have you accidentally sent a private reply instead of posting to > the list? Yes, damn it! > 1'. Have you accidentally posted to the list instead of sending a > private reply? I don't think so. > 2. Have you received an accidental private reply that was meant to go > to the list? Yes, many times. > 3. When you get a message that was sent to you instead of the list, do > you feel obliged to query the sender to ask him or her if it was > meant to private instead of to the list? Yes, just about every time I receive a private follow-up. I also send back the entire reply, in case the sender wants to post it to the list but no longer has a copy of his or her message. > 4. Has the Reply-To behavior of this list caused you confusion when > posting to other mailing lists, perhaps even causing you to > accidentally send a private e-mail instead of posting or vice > versa? Yes! Well, sort of. I think I've gone both directions on the RASFW and/or RASFF newsgroups. Grr. > 5. How do you feel about the Reply-To behavior of this list? I dislike it, but not enormously so (e.g. top-posting annoys me rather more). Now that I'm used to the software I switched to, I don't make the mistake myself very often, but I often receive private replies that were meant to be public. And at least once, a private reply really was intended to be private, but I had to ask to be sure. Grr! (Note: This makes me mildly annoyed at DDB, not the poor suckers who accidentally send private e-mail to me.) - tky From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Thu Nov 28 19:29:23 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 21:29:23 -0600 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <15843.46891.246035.618358@gw.dd-b.net> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127153459.00a5b510@dd-b.net> Message-ID: <3DE6DF13.2010108@attbi.com> My opinion? You bet. Having spent *a lot* of time carefully snipping the individual's name and changing the cc: to to: for the dragaera line (so as not to clog people's inbox with double-posting), and having *frequently*, when traffic is less heavy, mistakenly sent a private msg when I meant to send a public one, I (e) HATE the way this list operates. Furthermore, and this is beyond simple inconvenience, I have no way of knowing, when I have a msg from a stranger in my in-box, if it's from this list (or another like it), or of it's an obnoxious and possibly dangerous piece of spam. The other kind of list always tells you if a msg is *from* the list in the header. Yes, by now I know lots of people on this list, but there's always the newbie and the infrequent poster. I would feel much more secure if all the msg headers said Dragaera to start off with. Thanks for asking. I'll be really curious as to how this comes out. Mia From casey at trinityhartford.org Thu Nov 28 20:44:43 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 23:44:43 -0500 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000901c29762$0c97cf60$a902a8c0@KCRINSP8200> Mark wrote; > W.r.t. allegory, Tolkien said somewhere that there is a world > of difference between what a reader reads into a work and > what the writer wrote into it. > > -- Mark A. Mandel Mmm! See also, Umberto Eco. Four walks in the Fictional Woods, Interpretation and Overinterpretation and other works. He talsk about a dialectic between intentio auctoris and intentio lectoris producing intentio operis. (Forgive me please if I misspelled those, but I think you gen get the gist. Casey From Lydy at demesne.com Thu Nov 28 21:22:28 2002 From: Lydy at demesne.com (Lydia Nickerson) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 23:22:28 -0600 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: References: <20021128004853.23192.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 12:33 AM -0600 11/28/02, Gametech wrote: >David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > >> Maybe. I object strenuously to the whole concept of religion, >> spirituality, etc. It's superstitious nonsense, and hurts people, and >> destroys great civilizations. > >I was recently commissioned to create a website for the Gyuto Wheel of >Dharma Monastery here in Minnesota for a group of Tibetan Buddhists >(refugees) They have a Monastery here in MN. I know little to nothing about >their religion but when I asked what's the goal here what do you guys >basically do the answer I got was: > >We try to teach Compassion and Love as well as promote Peace. The only way >of effective teaching is to demonstrate, near as I can tell they do. Scott Imes was very interested in Tibetan Buddhism. He was also deeply anti-religious. I asked him about that, once. He said that they believed in peace, and he thought that the world would be a much better place if more people believed in that. I can't recall his exact wording, but it had a strong undercurrent of personal convenience, something along the lines of, "My life would be better if other people weren't so violent." Damn, I miss Scott. > >What I see are real world actions of placing emphasis on good things (I >don't know anyone who will argue against those things mentioned above Peace, >etc.) even if the tool they use (their religious practices and teachings) >are very superstitious or nonsensical. I don't agree with David that religions are evil and dangerous, but I do wonder why it is that so many people think that religions are _necessary_. It isn't hard, as a human being, to figure out that hurting people isn't a good thing. When people rely upon religion for their core values, I wonder why they feel so weak that they need something from the outside to support them in the face of such obvious truths. Most people are mostly good. Most people don't much like pain, either for themselves or for other people. It isn't hard to figure out that people have a better chance of being treated well if they treat other people well. None of this needs a supernatural basis, revelation, or support. They're as close to laws of nature as something can get and not be physics. >It's a persons free will that >determines what they believe, *creaking door noise* What people believe is heavily predicated on their upbringing and life experience and cultural setting and whole bunches of other things, many of which aren't entirely covered by informed free will. It is important to teach useful and truthful things exactly because belief is not entirely mediated by free will. >so maybe what you think is religion hurting >people is really just people believing dumb shit, which will still happen >rampantly without religion Sure. But religion lays a pretty solid foundation. "God said so," is a pretty convincing argument if you believe in God. Which means that people who believe in God can be manipulated by that faith into believing other things that aren't nearly as savory. Moreover, because most religions are based on irrational bases, believers are trained to accept irrational arguments. You can't argue with a believer by pointing out all the harm a particular belief causes. Rationality ain't in it. It is that training that I most dislike about religion. >however you lose the benefit of them believing >other good things as a side affect of that belief This is religion's Big Lie. People can be moral and kind and decent without the least bit of help from any supernatural source or belief. I get this constantly. "How do you decide what's right and wrong, if you don't believe in God?" Well, actually, roughly the way everybody else does, if they were paying attention to the way they really live their lives rather than how they think they live their lives. I operate on the "if it hurts, I'm probably doing this wrong" principal. Empathy is not a virtue instilled by religious practice; it is something that is part of the normal experience of being human. Wanting to prevent pain is one of the pillars of moral behavior. Recognizing that one's behavior has consequences is another. Neither one of these needs the least reference to the Invisible world. > >What is so Awfully wrong about religion that counter's in it's entirety the >good aspects of it? What does religion have to offer that I wasn't born with, already? -- Lydy Nickerson lydy at demesne.com lydy at lydy.com Dulciculi Aliquorum From casey at trinityhartford.org Thu Nov 28 21:36:57 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:36:57 -0500 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000a01c29769$5532ad60$a902a8c0@KCRINSP8200> > Well, it won't necessarily convince anyone, but let's have a > little poll: > > 1. Have you accidentally sent a private reply instead of posting to > the list? yes > 1'. Have you accidentally posted to the list instead of sending a > private reply? No, although I have done this on lists that set the reply-to to the list rather than the author > 2. Have you received an accidental private reply that was meant to go > to the list? Yes, altough less frequently than intentional private replies. > 3. When you get a message that was sent to you instead of the list, do > you feel obliged to query the sender to ask him or her if it was > meant to private instead of to the list? No. Often I can tell from context that the message is indeed for me. > 4. Has the Reply-To behavior of this list caused you confusion when > posting to other mailing lists, perhaps even causing you to > accidentally send a private e-mail instead of posting or vice > versa? Actually the reverse. Having been a longtime subscriber to the continuing time list and the CT-Forum off-topic offshoot list, it took me a couple weeks to get really comfortable with it. At this point I post regularly to both lists, and while my principal mail clients (MS Outlook 2000/2002) don't allow me to setup rules for how to override the list reply-to settings as other subscribers have mentioned, I manage fine with reply for private replies and reply to all, delete author's address for public replies. One nice feature with the current behavior here, is I don't have to go digging for the author's address when I do want to make a private reply. > 5. How do you feel about the Reply-To behavior of this list? > Do you > + like it I'm somewhere in between these two > + don't much care Casey From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Nov 28 21:51:41 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 28 Nov 2002 23:51:41 -0600 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David Silberstein writes: > On 27 Nov 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > > > >I object strenuously to the whole concept of religion, spirituality, > >etc. It's superstitious nonsense, and hurts people, and destroys > >great civilizations. > > > > Eh. I sometimes think this, but I am less certain than you are. > > The way I would re-phrase your statement is that cruelty and wilfull > stupidity hurt people, and that all too often religion is used as an > excuse to commit cruel and stupid acts. > > But religion or spirituality is just a way of thinking and/or feeling > about the universe. It may not the "best" way to think or feel about > the universe, but it can just as easily be neutral or positive as > negative in its effects. Religion introduces the infinite into the discussion. It takes the discussion outside of human scale. This leads to all sorts of unavoidable human mistakes -- we can't think meaningfully at that scale. > If religion is harmful, does it necessarily follow that the absence of > religion is beneficial? Relatively, yes. For me the real bottom-line argument is that religion, any religion, is *false*. Basing your life on a falsehood is bad. > The usual counterexample, by the way, to "religion considered harmful" > is Josef Stalin - a non-religious man, he believed in himself, and in > his right to kill or imprison anyone who disagreed with him. *shrug* > Damned if you do and damned if you don't. At least nobody thought they'd go to hell for killing him -- just to prison for being caught trying. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Nov 28 21:54:25 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 28 Nov 2002 23:54:25 -0600 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: References: <20021128004853.23192.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: "Gametech" writes: > David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > > > Maybe. I object strenuously to the whole concept of religion, > > spirituality, etc. It's superstitious nonsense, and hurts people, and > > destroys great civilizations. > > I was recently commissioned to create a website for the Gyuto Wheel of > Dharma Monastery here in Minnesota for a group of Tibetan Buddhists > (refugees) They have a Monastery here in MN. I know little to nothing about > their religion but when I asked what's the goal here what do you guys > basically do the answer I got was: > > We try to teach Compassion and Love as well as promote Peace. The only way > of effective teaching is to demonstrate, near as I can tell they do. > > Now some look at it as propaganda other see it for something else. I'm not > going to 'argue' your opinion. I am curious though how you perceive people > like this to be practicing their religion to be hurting people and > destroying great civilizations. Very mildly. But they're still encouraging people to believe things on faith rather than evidence, for example, and that's bad. People do far to little thinking. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From Lydy at demesne.com Thu Nov 28 22:02:05 2002 From: Lydy at demesne.com (Lydia Nickerson) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:02:05 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <20021128054744.GB6832@infodancer.org> References: <200211261847.gAQIlTAB043480@realtime.exit.com> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127140051.00ab6aa0@dd-b.net> <3DE541E7.3020700@attbi.com> <20021128054744.GB6832@infodancer.org> Message-ID: At 11:47 PM -0600 11/27/02, Matthew Hunter wrote: >On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 11:52:02PM -0600, Lydia Nickerson > wrote: >> I'm with DDB on the neurochemistry. Having the last half of my life >> on various psych drugs, I'm fully convinced of the chemistry of my >> existence. There have also been studies, some recent, which suggest >> that religious states, such as deep meditation or prayer or feeling >> like one is speaking directly to god are physical states, ones that >> some people's bodies are designed to accept. A genetic >> predisposition toward God, like I have a genetic predisposition to >> manic depression. > >This doesn't necessary deny the validity of that experience. I never said it did. Nor did I mean to imply it. Love is neurochemistry, too. It's damn powerful neurochemistry, and the experience is about as real as a kick in the teeth when it's intense, but it's chemical. So is grief, so is joy. All of your emotions, every one of them, is a biochemical cocktail. Hormones and neurotransmitters, strange brew. Heck, even memory may be chemical. But there's a big difference between valid and externally verifiable. At current time, I don't believe we have any way to measure whether or not you really love your wife (girlfriend, boyfriend, etc.). It's something that's happening entirely inside your head. The same is true of a religious experience. The outward show, buying flowers and remembering anniversaries, going to church and tithing, are not proofs of anything. Onlookers can make assumptiions about your brain-state by watching your behavior, but it's an inference, not certainty. > >So maybe we can scientifically explain the feelings, but that >doesn't mean they aren't triggered by God. What is God? What I believe is that it is not possible to know the answer to that question. The experiences which prove his existence to people are, by their nature, experiential and irrational, and therefore intransitive. You cannot share faith or belief. I can share a baseball with you, but I can only tell you about a vision. I cannot share God with you (assuming I had him, which I don't) I can only tell you about my experiences with him. If you also have experiences that are sufficiently similar, we can talk about him a lot. But there's still that gap. > >> In many ways, I think it's really really cool that >> we're finding out so much about how the world works, and being able >> to medicate people's brains in more and more precise ways. I don't >> worry about losing my humanity very often. Not yet. The danger will >> come when people stop having the right to choose their own medical >> care. In the mean time, Better Living Through Chemistry! > >In case you haven't noticed, that's already becoming the case. >Read up on ritalin and kids for a good example. What I've read mostly makes me want to murder the people who write those articles. Peter Breggin is on my shit list, very very high up. All drugs are misprescribed. All diseases are misdiagnosed. Those people I know of who actually have children who are hyperactive have not rushed into drug therapy, nor were they pushed into it by authority figures. Moreover, there's a good body of knowledge, getting larger, on what Ritalin is and isn't good for. The thing that I think is the greatest problem is that GPs are allowed to prescribe psych drugs without putting their patients under any sort of proper psychiatric care. A large number of the anecdotal incidents reported as proving that Ritalin or Prozac or another one of the psych drugs are terribly dangerous all involve doctors who are not psychiatrists and who did not consult one. >>Personally, I have severe concerns about any sort of compulsory (or >>even merely encouraged) regression to some defined "normality". >>Diversity of thought and opinion are worthwhile >>things; creativity and art are social goods; the existing >>structures need to be challenged rather than assumed. Did you know that Allen Ginsberg became a poet on the advice of his shrink? (If you don't know who Allen Ginsberg is, you should take a quick look around Google. He was not, however, "normal" and he definitely challenged existing structures.) There's good psychiatry and bad psychiatry, same as all other medicine. However, I think that there are a lot more good shrinks out there than there are bad. How many surgeons have actually had the bad luck to amputate the wrong leg? Not many, but we've all heard of at least one who has. My experience with the psych world has always been helpful. I've worried a lot about the conformity thing, too. I'm polyamorous, I've done illegal drugs, I'm kind of a syndacalist-anarchist when I'm not busy being a Democrat, I take a certain pride in not fitting in. When I was first prescribed Prozac, I was very very upset about taking a drug, and didn't know if I should, etc. etc. You know the rant. Someone who was then my friend (and this may be the only good turn he ever did me) said, "Lydia, you've taken LSD, and you're still you. How can you be afraid of Prozac?" I decided he had a point. People who've known me all along assure me that I continued to be myself after I went on anti-depressants. What conservative tendencies I have largely seem to come from being 40, and not from submitting to a drug regimen. What I've experienced is that psychiatrists and psychologist work to get their patient to "functional" rather than "normal." Functional means things like being able to get out of bed in the morning, if you want, being able to eat, being able to get up off the couch, being able to talk to friends, being able to feel happy sometimes, being able to make decisions and cope. I haven't ever had one of the multitudinous psych professionals rag on me about my love life, or my quite moderate drug use, or any of the other non-standard parts of my life. Involuntary commitment does happen. Bad abuses happen, and they are most likely in a situation where the patient has been committed involuntarily. As yet, though, 99.9% of the psych patients in this country can choose what type of treatment they will accept. Frankly, I think that far too many people refuse to take the meds prescribed to them for entirely dumb reasons. I do know one woman who said that she couldn't take Prozac because she could not tell if her photographs were any good when she was taking Prozac. It interfered with her creative processes that much. I completely understand why she stopped taking it. Most people, though, seem to be confused by the experience of not being miserable anymore. -- Lydy Nickerson lydy at demesne.com lydy at lydy.com Dulciculi Aliquorum From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Nov 28 22:02:55 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 29 Nov 2002 00:02:55 -0600 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <20021128130239.54501.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20021128130239.54501.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Caliann the Elf writes: > Hhhmmm, okay, I am about to have a bunch of people come unglued on > me, but that is life. > > When a PERSON does nasty, evil things to another PERSON, the > religion they supposedly follow is not to blame. The PERSON who > does the nasty, evil things is to blame. > > When a group of PEOPLE do nasty, evil things to other PEOPLE, their > religion is not to blame. The PEOPLE who did those things are to > blame. > > I have yet to see the Scriptures of a major religion propose > violence and harm upon others, even those not of their religion. > The Bible does not do so. The Quran does not do so. The Talmud > does not do so. In fact, in all of them, you will find a LOT of > teachings that can be effectively translated as "Will you PLEASE be > NICE to each other? Thanks, this is your God." Then you've never looked at the bible, in particular. I'm an extremely poor biblical scholar, but even I can point out that the early Israelites were punished for being *too lenient* to defeated enemies, and that while the injunction against letting a witch live may be a mistranslation, that argument is about "witch", not about the rest of it, so *somebody* shouldn't be allowed to live. And then of course there's the set Jubal exhibits to Ben in Stranger, that you can look up there. Many examples of the Bible either calling for harm explicitly, or rewarding people for harming people, or punishing people for not harming people. > Religion isn't evil. Religion isn't good. Those poor books do try > to tell people to be good, but people have this uncanny knack of > seeing only what they want to see. It's not the poor book's fault. > > I wouldn't have a problem with Christians if they would just follow > the teachings of Christ. Christ was a pretty nice guy and I'd > probably have fun getting into a theological discussion with him. I > wouldn't have a problem with Muslims if they would only follow the > teachings of Muhammad. I think Muhammad was a pretty neat guy > too....he had a thing for women being warriors. I can get behind > that kind of thinking. > > The existence of a Deity is not provable. The non-existence of a > Deity is not provable. ( Learned that in Philosophy 101...man, was > my prof a sadist) That some choose to believe in a Deity makes them > no better or worse than those who do not. Religion encourages people to make decisions on "faith" rather than evidence. Religion often introduces non-human scale issues into the argument, which completely discombobulates most human thought processes and leads to wrong results for the humans. I consider these two things to be significant evils. > The responsibility for evils committed does not lie with the > religion followed by those who perpetrated those evils. It lies > with the *people* who committed them. That's in some ways true. So long as you acknowledge the same thing about all good done by people. I think it's fair to blame a religion for behavior exhibited by people uner its sway if it's clear how the official or actual teachings of the religion lead to that behavior. > A side note about those poor books that everyone seems to be using > as an excuse to do nasty, evil things: Imagine some nutcase reading > the Taltos series and deciding that he is now a follower of the > Prophet Vlad, who speaks for God, a.k.a. Steve. Now if this looney > goes out and kills some people in the name of the Holy Order of > Assasination, who is to blame? The nutcase? Or perhaps Steve is to > blame for being God? Steve's books are identified as fiction, and identified as taking place on a world different from this one. That makes it pretty clear to me. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Thu Nov 28 22:04:55 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:04:55 -0600 Subject: The Religion Debate References: <20021128004853.23192.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Lydia Nickerson wrote: > At 12:33 AM -0600 11/28/02, Gametech wrote: >> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >> >> >> however you lose the benefit of them believing >> other good things as a side affect of that belief > > This is religion's Big Lie. People can be moral and kind and decent > without the least bit of help from any supernatural source or belief. > I get this constantly. "How do you decide what's right and wrong, if > you don't believe in God?" Well, actually, roughly the way everybody > else does, if they were paying attention to the way they really live > their lives rather than how they think they live their lives. I > operate on the "if it hurts, I'm probably doing this wrong" > principal. Empathy is not a virtue instilled by religious practice; > it is something that is part of the normal experience of being human. > Wanting to prevent pain is one of the pillars of moral behavior. > Recognizing that one's behavior has consequences is another. Neither > one of these needs the least reference to the Invisible world. > What I was saying about losing the benefit of... was an argument why religion isn't all bad and does help some people towards positive things. I was in NO way saying people aren't capable of it without religion, not in the least. I was just stating that as a side affect of people believing in their religion they often practice positive values in their daily lives. >> >> What is so Awfully wrong about religion that counter's in it's >> entirety the good aspects of it? > > What does religion have to offer that I wasn't born with, already? I hesitate in answering that question because I don't really care if you believe in *a* religion, but I've been trying to keep the point that religion itself is not entirely or even mostly a bad thing based on the good it does. It's like anything else you can take it or leave it. Maybe Purpose? Something to dedicate their life to? There are people whom just aren't creative thinking, who need to follow others and who need to have "don't kill, be nice to strangers, take care of your body, etc." told to them, I think religion may symbolize hope to many people, you were born with the ability to hope but with no particular purpose. Also people subscribe to a certain religion because its core beliefs are similar to their own so it is a way of associating with people whom have some similar views. Religion is a very social thing I don't really see how it can correctly be compared to what it has that you didn't when you were born, it doesn't possess anything (avoid the obvious witty comment) it's more like a tool that is useful for as long as the wielder needs to learn the positive things and practice them for the rest of his/her life. I think I'm beginning to empathize with ddb's viewpoint, I fully disagree but I empathize most people don't have as healthy an attitude towards religion as I *think* I do and they do some really repugnant things based on their beliefs, they do good things too it doesn't make it okay they do some asinine things but it helps it's better than only doing asinine things. Fsck I really really doubt if you looked at each person outside of their religious self and looked at all their actions (not influenced by religions) you are going to find some really repugnant things they are doing, you will likely also find good things. Religion isn't responsible for anything People are. > Lydy Nickerson lydy at demesne.com lydy at lydy.com > Dulciculi Aliquorum From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Nov 28 22:07:02 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 29 Nov 2002 00:07:02 -0600 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021128000238.0260ca30@localhost> References: <20021128004853.23192.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> <20021128004853.23192.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20021128000238.0260ca30@localhost> Message-ID: Steven Brust writes: > At 08:56 PM 11/27/2002 -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > > >Maybe. I object strenuously to the whole concept of religion, > >spirituality, etc. It's superstitious nonsense, and hurts people, and > >destroys great civilizations. > > Okay, but other than that, does it do any harm? So far as I know, it's confined to one tiny dust mote out in one corner of an ordinary and boring galaxy. Hardly makes any difference at all in the greater scheme of things. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From Lydy at demesne.com Thu Nov 28 22:12:13 2002 From: Lydy at demesne.com (Lydia Nickerson) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:12:13 -0600 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <20021128130239.54501.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20021128130239.54501.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 5:02 AM -0800 11/28/02, Caliann the Elf wrote: > >I have yet to see the Scriptures of a major religion propose >violence and harm upon others, even those not of their religion. >The Bible does not do so. The Quran does not do so. The Talmud >does not do so. In fact, in all of them, you will find a LOTof >teachings that can be effectively translated as "Will you PLEASE be >NICE to each other? Thanks, this is your God." So, what did happen to the Amalakites, anyway? Joshua and Judges are full of stories of the Israelites being punished because they failed to kill every man, woman, child, goat, and chicken in a particular town. "The Bible" isn't all of a piece, and lots of it has perfectly horrible stuff in it, and a value system that sucks rocks. > >Religion isn't evil. Religion isn't good. Those poor books do try >to tell people to be good, but people have this uncanny knack of >seeing only what they want to see. It's not the poor book's fault. The books don't exist by themselves, they were written by human beings, often for somewhat venal reasons. Was it Jeremiah that was written to justify the new line of kings and the changes in the religious structure? Joshua and Judges were written to prove that the Israelites were entitled to the land they'd stolen from the Canaanites. The Gospels were written as propaganda to prove that Christ was the Messiah, and tell several flat out whoppers to accomplish that. -- Lydy Nickerson lydy at demesne.com lydy at lydy.com Dulciculi Aliquorum From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Nov 28 22:11:55 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 29 Nov 2002 00:11:55 -0600 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <20021128122843.21195.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20021128122843.21195.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Caliann the Elf writes: > At 08:56 PM 11/27/2002 -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > > >Maybe. I object strenuously to the whole concept of religion, > >spirituality, etc. It's superstitious nonsense, and hurts people, and > >destroys great civilizations. > > People don't kill people....*I* kill people. Wow. You sure kept busy the last century! > My poor, overactive imagination....gives me yet another visual. > Spirituality destroys great civilizations? I see this army of yoga > enthusiasts in front of a great castle...meditating the walls down > while convoluting their bodies into unnatural shapes. The people in the castle will laugh themselves to death? I've outlined my basic complaints with religion already, no need to repeat them here. > My history may be somewhat off....but I have never heard of any > great civilization destroyed by a nature worship based, > non-patriarchial religion. I don't believe any great civilization has ever *encountered* such a thing even, never mind been destroyed by one. > War and aquisition is based on economics and greed. Religion has > been known MANY times in the past to provide a handy excuse, (No > honey, I'm not going off to Africa to gain gold and plunder...I am > going to redeem our Holy City!) but religion is not the underlying > cause of it. Religion raises the stakes. The big sky-father religions raise them to infinity. Any minor little problems here on earth are trivial compared to the potential win / lose in the afterlife. > Religion doesn't harm people, nor does it cause great civilizations > to fall. PEOPLE can do that without any help from a Diety. This is, for me, a situation where Dyer-Bennet's Fourth Law applies. I don't want to spend time arguing about allocating blame, because I believe there's plenty to go around. I'm not willing to let much of anybody escape -- neither the individuals, nor the religions. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Nov 28 22:12:37 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 29 Nov 2002 00:12:37 -0600 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "David Rodemaker" writes: > > At 08:56 PM 11/27/2002 -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > > > > >Maybe. I object strenuously to the whole concept of religion, > > >spirituality, etc. It's superstitious nonsense, and hurts people, and > > >destroys great civilizations. > > > > Okay, but other than that, does it do any harm? > > Just as importantly, it explains things which are otherwise unexplainable, > it helps people, and it builds great civilizations also. It provides *false* explanations. It's much, much, worse to have *incorrect* information than to honestly not know the answer to things. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Nov 28 22:13:37 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 29 Nov 2002 00:13:37 -0600 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Alex Nixon" writes: > I can't believe that I'm getting involved in this discussion, > especially given how little I've read of it. Still, here it goes. > > David, your belief that Religion is to blame for hurting people and > causing the destruction of great civilizations is fallacious. It > wasn't religion, spirituality, or the belief in the supernatural that > did that- it was people. Religion is merely an institution, a way of > looking at the world, a vehicle for one's actions. It is not an > independant, thinking entity. Right, and an institution that teaches beliefs and rules of action should get no blame for bad effects of their teachings. Sorry, not buying it. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Nov 28 22:15:15 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 29 Nov 2002 00:15:15 -0600 Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. In-Reply-To: <20021128201031.GA13958@infodancer.org> References: <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20021128124704.01da04b0@pop.east.cox.net> <20021128201031.GA13958@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Matthew Hunter writes: > On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 12:48:58PM -0500, "Peter H. Granzeau" wrote: > > At 16:37 11/27/2002 -0600, Matthew Hunter wrote: > > >While I agree with the sentiment that God has a lot of hard > > >questions to answer, taking responsibility for his creations is > > >not on the same level. Are you responsible for the actions of > > >your children once they reach adulthood and attain free will? > > No, but then again, I am not omnipotent, either. > > Does it matter? > > You are not responsible for the actions of others. You are responsible for the forseeable results of situations you create. If you're omniscient and created the entire universe, what does this leave you responsible for? -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From Lydy at demesne.com Thu Nov 28 22:18:41 2002 From: Lydy at demesne.com (Lydia Nickerson) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:18:41 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <3DE63F71.6030103@attbi.com> References: <200211261847.gAQIlTAB043480@realtime.exit.com> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127140051.00ab6aa0@dd-b.net> <3DE541E7.3020700@attbi.com> <3DE63F71.6030103@attbi.com> Message-ID: At 10:08 AM -0600 11/28/02, Mia McDavid wrote: >Lydia asked: > >>Why do you find what you perceive to be DDB's beliefs to be repellant? > >Ummm, lessee. He believes that there is no God. My life revolves >around my belief in God; I would be crushed if God's non-existence >could be somehow proven. This makes no sense to me. Are you saying that if God didn't exist, you wouldn't want to know? You'd rather continue believing in something that wasn't true? If it were possible to prove God's non-existence, it would be possible to prove his existence, and may the best theory win. > >He thinks my belief in God is a personality disorder and wants to >cure me. Gee. Thanks. I think he goes a bit far, here, but I've known an awful lot of people for whom religion clearly was an expression of mental disorder or dysfunction. My whole family, just for starters. > >That do ya? > It's a good start. -- Lydy Nickerson lydy at demesne.com lydy at lydy.com Dulciculi Aliquorum From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Nov 28 22:18:24 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 29 Nov 2002 00:18:24 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <3DE657B3.40402@attbi.com> References: <200211281700.gASH0jdv093188@realtime.exit.com> <3DE657B3.40402@attbi.com> Message-ID: Mia McDavid writes: > Frank said: > > >Your belief itself may not be a disorder, but the fact that you feel >that > >without it you couldn't function is pretty unhealthy, IMNSHO. > > No, no. It's not my *belief* I can't live without--it's God! Well, nothing *I* could do could possibly take him away from you, so I wouldn't worry too much. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Nov 28 22:19:54 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 29 Nov 2002 00:19:54 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <20021128215236.86CE626E2C@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20021128215236.86CE626E2C@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) writes: > Frank Mayhar writes: > Your belief itself may not be a disorder, but the fact that you feel that > without it you couldn't function is pretty unhealthy, IMNSHO. > > Given how important God is to those who do believe in him, your > opinion is fairly impolite. If i were to lose my wife, say, i would > have a hard time functioning. I'd get over it eventually, sure, but > she is only human. To lose one's god should damn well be a major > problem. Try to be a little more sensitive. Hey, recovering from a major psychological problem *is* a big deal, and I try to be as supportive as I can of people doing so. Somebody who had thought better of god, and was having trouble adjusting, certainly falls into that sort of category, and I hope I'd be supportive of them. On the other hand, I don't want to be an enabler. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Nov 28 22:21:57 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 29 Nov 2002 00:21:57 -0600 Subject: SOL -- Scribblies On Line In-Reply-To: <153.18101d94.2b171754@aol.com> References: <153.18101d94.2b171754@aol.com> Message-ID: FelixEisen at aol.com writes: > Hey, Steve, question for you ... > > Have you and/or the rest of the Scribblies ever thought about hosting/helping > out/taking part in a mailing-list version of the Scribblies? (And if so, can > I be one of 'em?) Some of the Scribblies do use email to keep in touch, and sometimes I believe have even discussed writing :-). I don't think the ones I know are involved are going to want to add new people to that list, though. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Thu Nov 28 22:26:36 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:26:36 -0600 Subject: The Religion Debate References: <20021128004853.23192.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > "Gametech" writes: > >> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >> >> >>> Maybe. I object strenuously to the whole concept of religion, >>> spirituality, etc. It's superstitious nonsense, and hurts people, >>> and destroys great civilizations. >> >> I was recently commissioned to create a website for the Gyuto Wheel >> of Dharma Monastery here in Minnesota for a group of Tibetan >> Buddhists (refugees) They have a Monastery here in MN. I know little >> to nothing about their religion but when I asked what's the goal >> here what do you guys basically do the answer I got was: >> >> We try to teach Compassion and Love as well as promote Peace. The >> only way of effective teaching is to demonstrate, near as I can tell >> they do. >> >> Now some look at it as propaganda other see it for something else. >> I'm not going to 'argue' your opinion. I am curious though how you >> perceive people like this to be practicing their religion to be >> hurting people and destroying great civilizations. > > Very mildly. But they're still encouraging people to believe things > on faith rather than evidence, for example, and that's bad. People do > far to little thinking. I don't think faith is a bad thing, beliving that when you purchase something from someone on ebay that they will send you the item requires faith, faith in that person for being honest. Sure you can make the most calculating decisions you can and research your seller but they always, always have the ability to screw you. When you take your car to the mechanic you have to have faith that he's not overcharging you and only fixing broken things, you might encouter actions that break your faith trying to find an honest mechanic. I think the same should hold true to religion If you feel decieved you just stop following it. From unitcancellation at hotmail.com Thu Nov 28 22:26:38 2002 From: unitcancellation at hotmail.com (Alex Nixon) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 02:26:38 -0400 Subject: The Religion Debate Message-ID: First, I believe the part of the Bible you're thinking of is the Old Testament, which largely becomes useless in Christian thinking after the arrival of the New Testament. I'm also not convinced that ALL religions calls for the harm of others. So your point, IMHO, is ignorant, prejudiced, and slightly offensive. It's a little like blaming the violence on TV for the increase in violence among children. The argument doesn't take. Or, as Joss Whedon once wrote, "That's crazy troll logic." Furthermore, I'd argue that religion, like art, philosophy, sports and science, tends to respond to current human thought. Thus, in religion's case, it can become more or less violent according to the beliefs of the times. Alex Post Script: Christ David, you really despise religion in all of its forms. I have one question: Where you beaten up as a child by a group consisting of Christians, Buddhists, and Greco-Roman Pagans? 'Cause this really is a whole lot of hate over something that's easy to ignore. ----Original Message Follows---- From: David Dyer-Bennet "Alex Nixon" writes: > I can't believe that I'm getting involved in this discussion, > especially given how little I've read of it. Still, here it goes. > > David, your belief that Religion is to blame for hurting people and > causing the destruction of great civilizations is fallacious. It > wasn't religion, spirituality, or the belief in the supernatural that > did that- it was people. Religion is merely an institution, a way of > looking at the world, a vehicle for one's actions. It is not an > independant, thinking entity. Right, and an institution that teaches beliefs and rules of action should get no blame for bad effects of their teachings. Sorry, not buying it. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Thu Nov 28 23:08:09 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 01:08:09 -0600 Subject: The Religion Debate References: Message-ID: David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > David Silberstein writes: > >> On 27 Nov 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >> >>> >>> I object strenuously to the whole concept of religion, spirituality, >>> etc. It's superstitious nonsense, and hurts people, and destroys >>> great civilizations. >>> >> >> Eh. I sometimes think this, but I am less certain than you are. >> >> The way I would re-phrase your statement is that cruelty and wilfull >> stupidity hurt people, and that all too often religion is used as an >> excuse to commit cruel and stupid acts. >> >> But religion or spirituality is just a way of thinking and/or feeling >> about the universe. It may not the "best" way to think or feel about >> the universe, but it can just as easily be neutral or positive as >> negative in its effects. > > Religion introduces the infinite into the discussion. It takes the > discussion outside of human scale. This leads to all sorts of > unavoidable human mistakes -- we can't think meaningfully at that > scale. > >> If religion is harmful, does it necessarily follow that the absence >> of religion is beneficial? > > Relatively, yes. > > For me the real bottom-line argument is that religion, any religion, > is *false*. Basing your life on a falsehood is bad. > Err... Hmm I can't differentiate that statement from someone saying: For me the real bottom-line argument is that atheism, or any other religion than the one I believe in, is *false*. Basing your life on a falsehood is bad. I agree and disagree on falsehoods, if believing something false helps you do something good or it has a good outcome it's falseness becomes only relevant if you care about being right. If you believe something false and it hurts you then it is bad. Like: You trip and fall and you try to catch yourself on a pole which you believe to be firmly planted and capable of supporting you, you are wrong and still fall flat on your face along with the pole. Or You trip and fall believing you are going to fall flat on your face and someone catches you, you were wrong and didn't expect it yet is doesn't matter that your judgment was in error because the only relevance is in being right. Just to remind the point I don't follow any religion, and haven't found one I believe in however every religion I've been subject to has had pieces of beliefs I do follow (all are undisputable positive ideals, not anything based in I can't prove it land), when you so reverently say religion is bad I simply know that's not true because it has vast potential to anyone who isn't a moron, just like anything else. I think there is error in your thinking that just because most or all religions (I don't know for sure so I'm unwilling to fully generalize) have at least one or more falsehoods in them that people following them automatically believe. Religion is subject to the brain the same way any other idea is we have the right and the ability to refuse ideas we find falseness in. And we have the right to renounce the religion for the falsehood at any point we distinguish it as harming us or existing. I did when it happened to me, born into a religion saw inconsistencies, even what I considered proof of the fallacy. But I've walked away with every positive piece of the teaching. I'd still follow if my ethics system based outside of religion didn't collide with the idea of representing something (the religion) by being a follower and not fully believing. For me the real bottom-line argument is that ideas, any idea is subject to being false. It's ok to believe in ideas even if some turn out to be false. Saying all religons are false is like to me saying all ideas are false. It seems so generalistic. From pyranf at attbi.com Thu Nov 28 23:16:59 2002 From: pyranf at attbi.com (pyranf at attbi.com) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 07:16:59 +0000 Subject: The Religion Debate Message-ID: > First, I believe the part of the Bible you're thinking of is the Old > Testament, which largely becomes useless in Christian thinking after the > arrival of the New Testament This is a highly questionable line of thought, as the New Testament relies heavily on the Old Testament to explain its legitimacy. For example, in order for Jesus to be the Messiah, he must adhere to the OT rules for the Messiah, which early Christian writers and the NT itself go to great pains to prove (IIRC, one of the Gospels attempts to directly tie Jesus to the bloodline of David). Also, there is no difference at all between the OT god and the NT god - - they are, in fact, the same god. The only reason, it seems to me, that people want the NT to supercede the OT is to reconcile the brutal, violent god of the OT to the peaceful, loving god of the NT. -Ari From ajmcguigan at yahoo.com Thu Nov 28 23:20:51 2002 From: ajmcguigan at yahoo.com (Andrew McGuigan) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 23:20:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021127211557.026e3710@localhost> Message-ID: <20021129072051.11142.qmail@web12705.mail.yahoo.com> --- Steven Brust wrote: > >David seemed to be saying it's not believable that > >there would be interest in religion (or, as I > prefer > >it, spirituality) in the far future, > > He said nothing about interest; he was speaking of > belief in the > supernatural, as I understood it. > Well, here is the post of his that I was responding to: Subject: Re: Damiano's Lute From: David Dyer-Bennet Date: 26 Nov 2002 11:15:28 -0600 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mia McDavid writes: > Patricia McKillip wrote these. They are explicitly theist, but not > Christian. > > Speaking of religion in literature, one of the *many* things I love > about David Weber's work is that the Christian church is very much > present in Honor's universe. I get cranky when societies have total > absence of religion--individuals may be athiests, but humans as a > group are going to worship *something*. I get cranky when far-future societies have anything recognizable as religion, personally. Makes no sense it would last that long. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info Sorry for the long paste, but I wanted to establish the original context. So, depending on what he defines as "far future" I was saying that there have been things recognizable as religion for the past 5000 or so years. And his using "it" I took him to mean "any recognizable religion" and it makes sense to me that, having existed for 5000 years, it would probably exist in another 5000 or so (which is could enough for "far future" for me). > >since we would > >have explained everything with science that > religion > >sought to answer. I think there are questions that > >are unanswerable by science > > That's true, science can never understand how the > solar system works. Oh, > wait. Well, science can never understand what > causes polio. Oh, > nuts. Hmmm. Well, science can never understand > life. Oh, that > too? Well, I'm sure science can never > understand....uh...human > emotion! There we go! And that's where God lives. > *whew* Glad we found one. I knew I would get in trouble if I didn't post examples, but that seemed just as likely if I *did* post examples. I think there are questions worth asking that do not have to do with the material world. Why do we exist? Why do we immediately bond with some people and despise others? Why do we love each other in the abscense of children? Why are prayers answered? Who is this "other voice" in my head? ;) > > I hope you are not seriously suggesting the Buddhism > or Hunduism have not > changed in the last few hundred years. > No, I don't know enough about them to argue that. My impression of Hinduism is that is constantly changing, in part by co-opting other popular religions (Ex. Not a lot of Buddhists in India, even though it's Buddha's home town, since Hinduism decided that Buddha was an incarnation of Vishnu). I am arguing, I guess, that things can change without becoming "unrecognizable". From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Nov 28 23:06:22 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 01:06:22 -0600 Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. In-Reply-To: References: <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20021128124704.01da04b0@pop.east.cox.net> <20021128201031.GA13958@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20021129070622.GC13958@infodancer.org> On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 12:15:15AM -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Matthew Hunter writes: > > On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 12:48:58PM -0500, "Peter H. Granzeau" wrote: > > > At 16:37 11/27/2002 -0600, Matthew Hunter wrote: > > > >While I agree with the sentiment that God has a lot of hard > > > >questions to answer, taking responsibility for his creations is > > > >not on the same level. Are you responsible for the actions of > > > >your children once they reach adulthood and attain free will? > > > No, but then again, I am not omnipotent, either. > > Does it matter? > > You are not responsible for the actions of others. > You are responsible for the forseeable results of situations you > create. If you're omniscient and created the entire universe, what > does this leave you responsible for? To a lesser degree than things you cause directly. The chain of responsible doesn't go farther than a direct response to your actions. Thus, you can order a hit and be *somewhat* responsible for the death along with the actual assassin, but you can have children and not be responsible for their own actions undertaken with free will. Creating a universe is one hell of a lot more like having kids than hiring a hit man. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From baralier at optusnet.com.au Thu Nov 28 23:25:25 2002 From: baralier at optusnet.com.au (Baralier) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 18:25:25 +1100 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net><01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net><200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com><15843.46891.246035.618358@gw.dd-b.net> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com><3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net><5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net><5.1.1.6.0.20021127153459.00a5b510@dd-b.net> Message-ID: <051001c29778$ba4021b0$18a231d2@valadan> > Well, it won't necessarily convince anyone, but let's have a little poll: > > 1. Have you accidentally sent a private reply instead of posting to > the list? Yes. Nearly did it with this one :-) > 1'. Have you accidentally posted to the list instead of sending a > private reply? No > 2. Have you received an accidental private reply that was meant to go > to the list? Yes > 3. When you get a message that was sent to you instead of the list, do > you feel obliged to query the sender to ask him or her if it was > meant to private instead of to the list? Didn't realise it at first. > 4. Has the Reply-To behavior of this list caused you confusion when > posting to other mailing lists, perhaps even causing you to > accidentally send a private e-mail instead of posting or vice > versa? No. Given that all the other lists I subscribe to have the list email as the 'from' and also put the list name in the subject header. > 5. How do you feel about the Reply-To behavior of this list? > Do you > + dislike it > + hate it Paul -- Good planning and organisation are just crutches for people who can't handle stress and caffeine. http://members.optushome.com.au/velvetspyder Costumier & Reprobate From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Thu Nov 28 23:29:50 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 01:29:50 -0600 Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. References: <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20021128124704.01da04b0@pop.east.cox.net> <20021128201031.GA13958@infodancer.org> <20021129070622.GC13958@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 12:15:15AM -0600, David Dyer-Bennet b.net> wrote: >> Matthew Hunter writes: >>> On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 12:48:58PM -0500, "Peter H. Granzeau" >>> wrote: >>>> At 16:37 11/27/2002 -0600, Matthew Hunter wrote: >>>>> While I agree with the sentiment that God has a lot of hard >>>>> questions to answer, taking responsibility for his creations is >>>>> not on the same level. Are you responsible for the actions of >>>>> your children once they reach adulthood and attain free will? >>>> No, but then again, I am not omnipotent, either. >>> Does it matter? >>> You are not responsible for the actions of others. >> You are responsible for the forseeable results of situations you >> create. If you're omniscient and created the entire universe, what >> does this leave you responsible for? > > To a lesser degree than things you cause directly. The chain of > responsible doesn't go farther than a direct response to your > actions. > > Thus, you can order a hit and be *somewhat* responsible for the > death along with the actual assassin, but you can have children > and not be responsible for their own actions undertaken with free > will. > > Creating a universe is one hell of a lot more like having kids > than hiring a hit man. Okay go create something like a robot, if it kills someone see who shows up at your door. From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Nov 28 23:14:50 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 01:14:50 -0600 Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. In-Reply-To: <20021128221052.B8B2126E2B@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20021127223712.GB4346@infodancer.org> <20021128221052.B8B2126E2B@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <20021129071450.GD13958@infodancer.org> On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 02:10:52PM -0800, definitely what wrote: > Matthew Hunter writes: > Are you responsible for the actions of your children once they reach > adulthood and attain free will? > This is a terrible assumption, in my opinion. Nobody attains free > will ("free will" itself is a canard, painted as an opposite to > "fate", when they're really the same damned thing); we're born with > the ability to make decisions, and as our mind develops, we can make > more complex decisions. > > "Adulthood" as it exists in most of Western civilization is pretty > broken, too; upon puberty, we should be helping kids to start making > 'adult' decisions, but instead we continue to treat them as children. > Then 18 rolls along and we suddenly let go. "You're on your own!" I agree with you, but in the content of this discussion it's irrelevant. Point is, at some point your children attain independence of decision-making from you, and from that point on, you are no longer responsible for their actions. Society marks that as age 18, which is a really bad way to do it, but there aren't any obvious better ways. > I think adults are responsible, to some degree, for how their children > behave, but not for their actions. If that makes any sense. It doesn't; behavior is composed of actions. However, I think I understand what you're getting at. Certainly I don't think parents are absolutely responsible for their kids actions before the age of majority, I was just trying not to be distracted by that issue by using the accepted social convention. :) -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Nov 28 23:16:21 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 01:16:21 -0600 Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. In-Reply-To: References: <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20021128124704.01da04b0@pop.east.cox.net> <20021128201031.GA13958@infodancer.org> <20021129070622.GC13958@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20021129071621.GE13958@infodancer.org> On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 01:29:50AM -0600, Gametech wrote: > Matthew Hunter wrote: > > Creating a universe is one hell of a lot more like having kids > > than hiring a hit man. > Okay go create something like a robot, if it kills someone see who shows up > at your door. Robots don't have free will. You're being deliberately obtuse. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From rone at ennui.org Thu Nov 28 23:38:29 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 23:38:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: from David Dyer-Bennet at "Nov 29, 2002 00:19:54 am" Message-ID: <20021129073829.691B226E2A@boredom.ennui.org> David Dyer-Bennet writes: Hey, recovering from a major psychological problem *is* a big deal, I certainly hope you're not implying belief or faith are major psychological problems. rone you're not a psychologist, are you? -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Nov 28 23:21:50 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 01:21:50 -0600 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: References: <20021128130239.54501.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20021129072150.GF13958@infodancer.org> On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 12:02:55AM -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Caliann the Elf writes: > > I have yet to see the Scriptures of a major religion propose > > violence and harm upon others, even those not of their religion. > > The Bible does not do so. The Quran does not do so. The Talmud > > does not do so. In fact, in all of them, you will find a LOT of > > teachings that can be effectively translated as "Will you PLEASE be > > NICE to each other? Thanks, this is your God." > > Then you've never looked at the bible, in particular. > > I'm an extremely poor biblical scholar, but even I can point out that > the early Israelites were punished for being *too lenient* to defeated > enemies, and that while the injunction against letting a witch live > may be a mistranslation, that argument is about "witch", not about the > rest of it, so *somebody* shouldn't be allowed to live. "poisoner", I think, which I frankly don't have much problem with. :) As for the rest, there are certainly lots of examples from the OT of a vengeful, bloodthirsty God. I suspect most people with a Christian bent prefer to ignore the OT. > > A side note about those poor books that everyone seems to be using > > as an excuse to do nasty, evil things: Imagine some nutcase reading > > the Taltos series and deciding that he is now a follower of the > > Prophet Vlad, who speaks for God, a.k.a. Steve. Now if this looney > > goes out and kills some people in the name of the Holy Order of > > Assasination, who is to blame? The nutcase? Or perhaps Steve is to > > blame for being God? > Steve's books are identified as fiction, and identified as taking > place on a world different from this one. That makes it pretty clear > to me. It might be more useful to note that Steve's books are not actively promoted as "this is how you should live your life", complete with a system of rewards and punishments for failing to say "Shut up, Loiosh" often enough. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From divyasatyam at satyam.net.in Thu Nov 28 23:39:27 2002 From: divyasatyam at satyam.net.in (Divya) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 13:09:27 +0530 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth References: <000901c29762$0c97cf60$a902a8c0@KCRINSP8200> Message-ID: <00f901c2977a$720f3a00$197bd2d2@satyam.net.in> "Casey Rousseau" wrote: > Mmm! See also, Umberto Eco. Four walks in the Fictional Woods, > Interpretation and Overinterpretation and other works. He talsk about a > dialectic between intentio auctoris and intentio lectoris producing > intentio operis. (Forgive me please if I misspelled those, but I think > you gen get the gist. The spellings are spot on, actually. Ah, but it isn't a classic Hegelian dialectic unless the reader's intention is the antithesis of the author's intention... Eco does distinguish between what he calls "open texts", i.e., works of art that actively involve the 'addressee' or reader in their production -- and "closed texts" that try to evoke a limited and predetermined response. In the case of the former, says Eco, the author is consciously trying to evoke a different subjective result with every reader and every performance. Pretty interesting and provocative stuff, regardless of whether you agree with him or not. cheers, Divya ---------- "The question of all questions for humanity, the problem which lies behind all others and is more interesting than any of them is that of the determination of man's place in Nature and his relation to the Cosmos. Whence our race came, what sorts of limits are set to our power over Nature and to Nature's power over us, to what goal we are striving, are the problems which present themselves afresh, with undiminished interest, to every human being born on earth." --T.H. Huxley From rone at ennui.org Thu Nov 28 23:49:33 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 23:49:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: from David Rodemaker at "Nov 28, 2002 10:21:29 am" Message-ID: <20021129074933.CA72126E2B@boredom.ennui.org> David Dyer-Bennet writes: Maybe. I object strenuously to the whole concept of religion, spirituality, etc. It's superstitious nonsense, and hurts people, and destroys great civilizations. Religion includes superstition, but there exists superstition outside of religion. "Hurts people"... what doesn't hurt people? Destroys great civilizations? This is is the same sort of nonsense i spouted when i was an atheist... It's easy to blame religion for the ills of the world, but it's just people being fanatical ideologues. The religion just becomes the excuse. David Rodemaker writes: Just as importantly, it explains things which are otherwise unexplainable, That's mythology, which is a part of religion. rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From rone at ennui.org Thu Nov 28 23:50:32 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 23:50:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <20021128184657.GA28213@ofb.net> from Damien Sullivan at "Nov 28, 2002 10:46:57 am" Message-ID: <20021129075032.29B4B26E2C@boredom.ennui.org> Damien Sullivan writes: Do you consider modern Western civilization to be 'high'? Boy, there's a straight line just begging to be abused... rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From rone at ennui.org Thu Nov 28 23:52:20 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 23:52:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F5954D@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> from "Penney, Sean" at "Nov 28, 2002 10:33:55 am" Message-ID: <20021129075220.62C6726E2D@boredom.ennui.org> Penney, Sean writes: I wonder - is it possible for a civilization to develop to a "high" state without religion? For the same reason that religion doesn't kill people, you can't ascribe the great accomplishments of civilizations to the religion. Religion can be the tool with which the hierarchy moved the people to great feats, but we do the same things nowadays for money, or science, or fame. rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Nov 28 23:35:45 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 01:35:45 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: References: <200211261847.gAQIlTAB043480@realtime.exit.com> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127140051.00ab6aa0@dd-b.net> <3DE541E7.3020700@attbi.com> <20021128054744.GB6832@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20021129073545.GG13958@infodancer.org> On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 12:02:05AM -0600, Lydia Nickerson wrote: > At 11:47 PM -0600 11/27/02, Matthew Hunter wrote: > >On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 11:52:02PM -0600, Lydia Nickerson > > wrote: > >> I'm with DDB on the neurochemistry. Having the last half of my life > >> on various psych drugs, I'm fully convinced of the chemistry of my > >> existence. There have also been studies, some recent, which suggest > >> that religious states, such as deep meditation or prayer or feeling > >> like one is speaking directly to god are physical states, ones that > >> some people's bodies are designed to accept. A genetic > >> predisposition toward God, like I have a genetic predisposition to > >> manic depression. > >This doesn't necessary deny the validity of that experience. > I never said it did. Nor did I mean to imply it. I know -- I was just pointing it out, because it came to me as a message from the alien in orbit and I thought it was interesting. ;) > >> In many ways, I think it's really really cool that > >> we're finding out so much about how the world works, and being able > >> to medicate people's brains in more and more precise ways. I don't > >> worry about losing my humanity very often. Not yet. The danger will > >> come when people stop having the right to choose their own medical > >> care. In the mean time, Better Living Through Chemistry! > >In case you haven't noticed, that's already becoming the case. > >Read up on ritalin and kids for a good example. > What I've read mostly makes me want to murder the people who write > those articles. Peter Breggin is on my shit list, very very high up. > All drugs are misprescribed. All diseases are misdiagnosed. Those > people I know of who actually have children who are hyperactive have > not rushed into drug therapy, nor were they pushed into it by > authority figures. Moreover, there's a good body of knowledge, > getting larger, on what Ritalin is and isn't good for. The thing > that I think is the greatest problem is that GPs are allowed to > prescribe psych drugs without putting their patients under any sort > of proper psychiatric care. A large number of the anecdotal > incidents reported as proving that Ritalin or Prozac or another one > of the psych drugs are terribly dangerous all involve doctors who are > not psychiatrists and who did not consult one. Let me put some perspective into this discussion. I am (was) a Ritalin Kid. One of the very early ones. I was legitimately diagnosed with appropriate consultation (psychologists and medical doctors). So far as I am aware, there was no pressure on my parents for a drug solution (in fact they tried several alternatives first). Certainly it had a profound effect on my mental processes, arguably for the better. But all of that pales to insignificance beside the fact that no one bothered to ask me. I'm not making any fantastic claims here; I just have sincere doubts about the desirability of drug therapy, particularly when it's involuntary. Defining different modes of thought as "wrong" and designating them for "correction" through involuntary treatment is extremely dangerous from a social perspective alone. > >>Personally, I have severe concerns about any sort of compulsory (or > >>even merely encouraged) regression to some defined "normality". > >>Diversity of thought and opinion are worthwhile > >>things; creativity and art are social goods; the existing > >>structures need to be challenged rather than assumed. > Did you know that Allen Ginsberg became a poet on the advice of his > shrink? (If you don't know who Allen Ginsberg is, you should take a > quick look around Google. He was not, however, "normal" and he > definitely challenged existing structures.) There's good psychiatry > and bad psychiatry, same as all other medicine. However, I think > that there are a lot more good shrinks out there than there are bad. Not in my experience -- but I very much do NOT want to have this argument. > [...] > When I was first prescribed Prozac, I was very very upset about > taking a drug, and didn't know if I should, etc. etc. You know the > rant. Someone who was then my friend (and this may be the only good > turn he ever did me) said, "Lydia, you've taken LSD, and you're still > you. How can you be afraid of Prozac?" I decided he had a point. I am frankly boggled. There is no logical connection between these things. If that was sufficient to resolve your dilemna, well, I'm glad it worked for you, but I would never, ever, use such an analogy. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Nov 28 23:58:03 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 23:58:03 -0800 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <3DE6BD13.7020901@networkharmoni.com.au> References: <00b901c296d0$56a1bf40$2b20d118@neo.rr.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20021128050520.02989150@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021128234509.02cbd190@localhost> At 09:04 AM 11/29/2002 +0800, Andrew Bailey wrote: >Steven Brust wrote: >>At 05:02 AM 11/28/2002 -0800, Caliann the Elf wrote: >> >>> >>>The existence of a Deity is not provable. The non-existence of a Deity >>>is not provable. ( Learned that in Philosophy 101...man, was my prof a >>>sadist) That some choose to believe in a Deity makes them no better or >>>worse than those who do not. >> >>This is at the heart of this whole conversation. In my opinion, it comes >>down to the notion that "proof" is something that we do in our heads. We >>construct a proof that passes certain tests of what we call "logic." How >>do we know this "logic" makes sense? Easy: we "proved" it in our heads, >>with logic. > >Logic generally works, the assumptions underlying a particular argument >can often be dubious. I must respectfully disagree. Formal logic fails miserably as soon as it ventures out of it's safe little home in academia and travels the world. Causes turn into effects, which then turn into further causes; A turns out to be the opposite of A. Things that *are* become *not*. Formal logic only works in a world where isolated things remain isolated, and where internal motion and change within a thing can be ignored. >>Feh. >>Logic is useful servant but a poor master. We, as human beings, "prove* >>that our ideas are correct (or incorrect) not by sitting around thinking, >>but by making actual changes in the world around us in accordance with >>our ideas. When our ideas are wrong, the world let's us know sooner or >>later. Usually sooner. > >Yes and no. Often we do use experimental evidence to back up ideas, >sometimes its just too damn hard. This doesn't always mean the idea is >incorrect. And sometimes both are very hard, this is known as the Fermats >a bastard clause:) By your use of "experiments" it seems you still stuck on this "proof" thing. Let me try it this way: we are not here to "prove" that our ideas of the world are correct. We are here to make the world what we wish it to be. Doing so requires that our ideas be as close to reality as we can get. > >>To the extent that we understand nature, to that extent can we *control* >>nature--can we make a world in accordance with our wishes. This means >>understanding the laws of the motion of matter, as complex and varied and >>wonderful as they are. To introduce into our thoughts idea which do not >>reflect the world as it is, but, in particular require suspending or >>denying those very laws, hinders our understanding. > >Depends on what you mean by God. Some peoples definitions of God do not >deny the laws of nature as we know them, but rather center on God being >an Experience. Does that require a denial of these laws or does it hinder >our understanding. Well, sure. And then I stop disagreeing with them. Remember, I'm not denying the existence of god; I'm denying that there is a god outside of the realm of ideas. I'm denying a world in which the laws of nature do not operate, or can be suspended. If you want to take some aspect or aspects of the material world and label them "God" then I might wonder why you bother, but I certainly won't dispute it. > >>I am not to blame for being god. >>The position was forced upon me. > >Well you wouldn't be the first genre author to start a religion:) > >I will get worried when you start living on a boat[1]. Well, actually, if truth be told, I dream of life on a Mississipi River steamboat. And I could do it, too. Anyone have a spare six million dollars? Maybe God will give it to me. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Nov 29 00:00:28 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:00:28 -0800 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <20021129072051.11142.qmail@web12705.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021127211557.026e3710@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129000000.02cbd680@localhost> At 11:20 PM 11/28/2002 -0800, Andrew McGuigan wrote: >--- Steven Brust wrote: > > > >David seemed to be saying it's not believable that > > >there would be interest in religion (or, as I > > prefer > > >it, spirituality) in the far future, > > > > He said nothing about interest; he was speaking of > > belief in the > > supernatural, as I understood it. > > > >Well, here is the post of his that I was responding >to: If you believe what you quoted supports your hypothesis, not mine, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Fri Nov 29 00:04:05 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 02:04:05 -0600 Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. References: <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20021128124704.01da04b0@pop.east.cox.net> <20021128201031.GA13958@infodancer.org> <20021129070622.GC13958@infodancer.org> <20021129071621.GE13958@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 01:29:50AM -0600, Gametech > wrote: >> Matthew Hunter wrote: >>> Creating a universe is one hell of a lot more like having kids >>> than hiring a hit man. >> Okay go create something like a robot, if it kills someone see who >> shows up at your door. > > Robots don't have free will. > > You're being deliberately obtuse. Heh... No. I said it just so you'd make that reply that way if you didn't see my underlying point. Clever, no? To compare us to an omnipotent god is the same as comparing a robot to us, our freedom of our will isn't comparable to the freedom of an omnipotent gods as the same is true from a robot to ours, it does what it was designed to do, just like we would in the case of being a creation of gods. If you mean by obtuse lacking in intelligence I suppose I over estimated your ability to connect the dots of my statement. From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Nov 28 23:46:00 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 01:46:00 -0600 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) In-Reply-To: References: <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <15843.46891.246035.618358@gw.dd-b.net> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127153459.00a5b510@dd-b.net> Message-ID: <20021129074600.GH13958@infodancer.org> On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 10:20:53PM -0500, Thomas Yan wrote: > 1. Have you accidentally sent a private reply instead of posting to > the list? Not on this list. > 1'. Have you accidentally posted to the list instead of sending a > private reply? No. > 2. Have you received an accidental private reply that was meant to go > to the list? Yes. > 3. When you get a message that was sent to you instead of the list, do > you feel obliged to query the sender to ask him or her if it was > meant to private instead of to the list? Sometimes it's obvious from context. > 4. Has the Reply-To behavior of this list caused you confusion when > posting to other mailing lists, perhaps even causing you to > accidentally send a private e-mail instead of posting or vice > versa? No. > 5. How do you feel about the Reply-To behavior of this list? > Do you > + love it > + like it > + don't much care > + dislike it > + hate it > + hate it, Hate It, HATE IT! I'm fine either way. Let me add some additional comments: >From a technical perspective, this list is set up in the technically-correct way. Email clients can interpret this setup in a more flexible manner, and offer more power to their users this way. It's also very convenient not to need to hunt for a user's address when trying to send private mail. However, from a usability standpoint, Reply-To is clearly superior for the purposes of a discussion list. People don't want to have to delete recipients by hand (and many mail clients can't do it automatically). They want a single key to respond to the message, and they want that response to go back out in the same medium that it arrived. Switching from public to private response should require extra work, since that is not the default case. Certainly the exact tradeoff varies by the list. Some lists are more focused on direct responses, but this is a high-traffic discussion forum, and the default should be a public response; the only way to implement that reliably is Reply-To at present. When I make my own lists (I run several), I pick whether to alter reply-to settings on a list-by-list basis. I have lists that work both ways. When I do set up reply-to, I have to hold my nose on the technical side, but it's worth it for the usability. All that said, it's DDB's list, and he is benevolent dictator. I don't have a gripe with however he wants to run it in this regard. (Now, the monthly subscriber list postings are another matter...) -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Nov 29 00:05:13 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:05:13 -0800 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <20021129072051.11142.qmail@web12705.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021127211557.026e3710@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129000056.02c010b0@localhost> At 11:20 PM 11/28/2002 -0800, Andrew McGuigan wrote: > >I knew I would get in trouble if I didn't post >examples, but that seemed just as likely if I *did* >post examples. I think there are questions worth >asking that do not have to do with the material world. > Why do we exist? Strikes me as a silly question. > Why do we immediately bond with >some people and despise others? An interesting question, and one I shouldn't be at all surprised to find that science can eventually answer. > Why do we love each >other in the abscense of children? I'm not sure what this means. >Why are prayers >answered? Because many of us are skilled at lying to ourselves. > > >I am arguing, I guess, that things can change without >becoming "unrecognizable". Uh...I don't think anyone has disputed that. I was arguing for the Incredible Shrinking God. I don't think you can find anything in the last few hundred years og Buddhist or Hindu teachings to dispute that. I mean, the Hindu's are even getting away from the *caste* system, which was decreed by the gods in the first place. From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Fri Nov 29 00:11:43 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 02:11:43 -0600 Subject: The Religion Debate References: <00b901c296d0$56a1bf40$2b20d118@neo.rr.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20021128050520.02989150@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20021128234509.02cbd190@localhost> Message-ID: Steven Brust wrote: > >> >>> I am not to blame for being god. >>> The position was forced upon me. >> >> Well you wouldn't be the first genre author to start a religion:) >> >> I will get worried when you start living on a boat[1]. > > Well, actually, if truth be told, I dream of life on a Mississipi > River steamboat. And I could do it, too. Anyone have a spare six > million dollars? Maybe God will give it to me. I take it that if someone just gave you 6 million dollars to pursue this dream you'd consider them god? I wouldn't balme you! From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Nov 29 00:01:15 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 02:01:15 -0600 Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. In-Reply-To: References: <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20021128124704.01da04b0@pop.east.cox.net> <20021128201031.GA13958@infodancer.org> <20021129070622.GC13958@infodancer.org> <20021129071621.GE13958@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20021129080115.GI13958@infodancer.org> On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 02:04:05AM -0600, Gametech wrote: > Matthew Hunter wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 01:29:50AM -0600, Gametech > > wrote: > >> Matthew Hunter wrote: > >>> Creating a universe is one hell of a lot more like having kids > >>> than hiring a hit man. > >> Okay go create something like a robot, if it kills someone see who > >> shows up at your door. > > Robots don't have free will. > > You're being deliberately obtuse. > Heh... No. I said it just so you'd make that reply that way if you didn't > see my underlying point. Clever, no? No. > To compare us to an omnipotent god is the same as comparing a robot to us, > our freedom of our will isn't comparable to the freedom of an omnipotent > gods as the same is true from a robot to ours, it does what it was designed > to do, just like we would in the case of being a creation of gods. OK, here we have to fork the argument. Either 1) you actually mean omnipotent, or 2) you mean omniscient. Now, an omnipotent God could conceivably design a world that included free will and so on, but didn't allow anyone to commit evil acts. An omniscient God would presumably know the consequences of all his acts, and thus would responsible for later actions exactly as if setting up a stack of dominoes to topple. The counterargument to both forks remains the same: free will. If omniscient, then God may know the results of his actions, but he is not making our choices for us. We choose to do good or evil, and foreknowledge of that choice does not equate to a lack of choice. If omnipotent, then by removing the consequences of evil choices from the world, God would be negating the significance of free will. If there are no consequences to evil acts, than why does it matter whether you choose good or evil? Thus, an omnipotent God cannot logically protect us from evil acts, freely chosen, without removing our free will in practical, if not theoretical, terms. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From calianng_graves at yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 00:21:05 2002 From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:21:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Great Debate....to DDB Message-ID: <20021129082105.59762.qmail@web21106.mail.yahoo.com> > If religion is harmful, does it necessarily follow that the absence of > religion is beneficial? Relatively, yes. ************************************************************************************** Please elaborate on this, I may have misread it. Does this mean that if we kill off everyone that has a belief in the supernatural and burn every copy of any kind of scripture, we will have the ability to achieve Utopia? For me the real bottom-line argument is that religion, any religion, is *false*. Basing your life on a falsehood is bad. ************************************************************************************** So are you telling those in this forum that if they *do* believe in a religion, there entire lives are false? If they disagree with you, it's only because they have been brainwashed by religion and are therefore "bad"? Very mildly. But they're still encouraging people to believe things on faith rather than evidence, for example, and that's bad. People do far to little thinking. ************************************************************************************** Clarify this for me please, are you saying that those that follow a religion don't think? In fact, in all of them, you will find a LOT of > teachings that can be effectively translated as "Will you PLEASE be > NICE to each other? Thanks, this is your God." Then you've never looked at the bible, in particular. Many examples of the Bible either calling for harm explicitly, or rewarding people for harming people, or punishing people for not harming people. **************************************************************************************** I have a PhD in Theology, actually, even though I am not a Christian. I have studied the Bible in Hebrew and Greek. I did not say that ALL of the Bible taught peace and love, only that there were many teachings in it that set forth these ideals. Especially in the Greek Scriptures. (Commonly called the New Testement) In college, we used to say that we were glad that Jesus came along, because God sure was grumpy in the Hebrew Scriptures. Religion encourages people to make decisions on "faith" rather than evidence. ******************************************************************************************* I accept the existence of Pluto on faith, not evidence. I certainly have never seen it. I also accept the existence of atomic particals on faith, not evidence. I have yet to see an atomic partical. Jastrow once said that it takes more faith to believe in evolution than it does to believe in creationism, because at that point, there was less evidence to support evolution. What's your point? Religion often introduces non-human scale issues into the argument, which completely discombobulates most human thought processes and leads to wrong results for the humans. **************************************************************************************** This is different than trying to hold a conversation with Mathmatics professors in what way? Right, and an institution that teaches beliefs and rules of action should get no blame for bad effects of their teachings. Sorry, not buying it. ************************************************************************************************* I just have to wonder, are you against religion...or the scriptures religion tends to be based upon? Most of the bad effects that I have seen perpetrated by so-called "religion" was AGAINST their own holy scriptures. Not only that, it was *people* that twisted those same codes into things that would serve their own purpose. Is the Islamic religion to blame for the attacks of Sept. 11th, even though the Islamic scriptures clearly say that killing innocents is a grand way to get a one way ticket to Hell? Or are the leaders of the offshoot cult to blame for deliberately twisting those scriptures to gain themselves an army to feed their hate? ************************************************************************************************* Your tone on this particular thread is different from what I am accustomed to reading from you. You really dislike opposition on this topic, don't you? Peace, Caliann *Owned and Operated by the Grand Poohbah Cheese of the Universe* "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now From calianng_graves at yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 00:37:30 2002 From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:37:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021129083730.24171.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com> Alex Nixon wrote: Post Script: Christ David, you really despise religion in all of its forms. I have one question: Where you beaten up as a child by a group consisting of Christians, Buddhists, and Greco-Roman Pagans? 'Cause this really is a whole lot of hate over something that's easy to ignore. *************************************************************************************** Oh Gods, Goddesses and Sub-Atomic Particals, Alex, thank you! I've been trying to think of some Miss Manners approved way to say this very thing for about 60 posts now and came up blank. All I could manage was to sound a bit nasty which wasn't my intention at all. Thank you for taking the words out of my mind in the most blunt way possible. Peace, Caliann *Owned and Operated by the Grand Poohbah Cheese of the Universe* "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Nov 29 00:35:18 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:35:18 -0800 Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. In-Reply-To: References: <20021128201031.GA13958@infodancer.org> <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20021128124704.01da04b0@pop.east.cox.net> <20021128201031.GA13958@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129003458.02be6430@localhost> At 12:15 AM 11/29/2002 -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > >You are responsible for the forseeable results of situations you >create. If you're omniscient and created the entire universe, what >does this leave you responsible for? Ohhh. *Good* one! From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Fri Nov 29 00:38:25 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 02:38:25 -0600 Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. References: <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20021128124704.01da04b0@pop.east.cox.net> <20021128201031.GA13958@infodancer.org> <20021129070622.GC13958@infodancer.org> <20021129071621.GE13958@infodancer.org> <20021129080115.GI13958@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 02:04:05AM -0600, Gametech > wrote: >> Matthew Hunter wrote: >>> On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 01:29:50AM -0600, Gametech >>> wrote: >>>> Matthew Hunter wrote: >>>>> Creating a universe is one hell of a lot more like having kids >>>>> than hiring a hit man. >>>> Okay go create something like a robot, if it kills someone see who >>>> shows up at your door. >>> Robots don't have free will. >>> You're being deliberately obtuse. >> Heh... No. I said it just so you'd make that reply that way if you >> didn't see my underlying point. Clever, no? > > No. > >> To compare us to an omnipotent god is the same as comparing a robot >> to us, our freedom of our will isn't comparable to the freedom of an >> omnipotent gods as the same is true from a robot to ours, it does >> what it was designed to do, just like we would in the case of being >> a creation of gods. > > OK, here we have to fork the argument. > > Either 1) you actually mean omnipotent, or 2) you mean > omniscient. Now, an omnipotent God could conceivably design a > world that included free will and so on, but didn't allow anyone > to commit evil acts. An omniscient God would presumably know the > consequences of all his acts, and thus would responsible for > later actions exactly as if setting up a stack of dominoes to > topple. > > The counterargument to both forks remains the same: free will. > If omniscient, then God may know the results of his actions, but > he is not making our choices for us. We choose to do good or > evil, and foreknowledge of that choice does not equate to a lack > of choice. If omnipotent, then by removing the consequences of > evil choices from the world, God would be negating the > significance of free will. If there are no consequences to evil > acts, than why does it matter whether you choose good or evil? > Thus, an omnipotent God cannot logically protect us from evil > acts, freely chosen, without removing our free will in > practical, if not theoretical, terms. Omnipotent Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful. See Usage Note at infinite. n. 1.. One having unlimited power or authority: the bureaucratic omnipotents. 2.. Omnipotent God. Used with the. 1. If you have unlimited power omniscient ness is within your power therefore you have that as well he can't be omnipotent and not know unless he wanted it that way, either way choosing to be ignorant of the chain of effect of the actions doesn't make one any less responsible. 2. Who even says we have free will? Boxed choices seems to me not to be free will. Free will means unrestrained choices (though it can just mean the ability to exercise choice), the universe restrains us to its laws. If god created the universe all he is doing is giving us the ability to choose between his choices. That sounds very much to me like the lack of free will. From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Nov 29 00:24:44 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 02:24:44 -0600 Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. In-Reply-To: References: <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20021128124704.01da04b0@pop.east.cox.net> <20021128201031.GA13958@infodancer.org> <20021129070622.GC13958@infodancer.org> <20021129071621.GE13958@infodancer.org> <20021129080115.GI13958@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20021129082444.GJ13958@infodancer.org> On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 02:38:25AM -0600, Gametech wrote: > 2. Who even says we have free will? Boxed choices seems to me not to be free > will. Free will means unrestrained choices (though it can just mean the > ability to exercise choice), the universe restrains us to its laws. If god > created the universe all he is doing is giving us the ability to choose > between his choices. That sounds very much to me like the lack of free will. That implies that omnipotence is the only route to free will. That's not valid. Free will is the ability to choose your own actions freely -- it doesn't require that the universe fulfill your desires as well. At any rate, if you are going to go to such lengths to continue being obtuse, there's no point in continuing. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Nov 29 00:41:50 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:41:50 -0800 Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. In-Reply-To: References: <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20021128124704.01da04b0@pop.east.cox.net> <20021128201031.GA13958@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129004119.02bea3d0@localhost> At 03:41 PM 11/28/2002 -0600, Gametech wrote: >Matthew Hunter wrote: > >It's like saying Verra shared no responsibility (based on her influence) for >the king of Elde island being assassinated. Ha! If your action brings enough >influence over someone else's actions (maybe saying consciously is >important, then again maybe not) do in fact share some of the >responsibility of that action. Kindly stop trying to bring us back on topic. ;-) From calianng_graves at yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 00:46:10 2002 From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:46:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <20021129075032.29B4B26E2C@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <20021129084610.89529.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> rone, I am reminded of what Ghandi said when asked what he thought of Western Civilization: "I think it would be a great idea." Peace, Caliann *Owned and Operated by the Grand Poohbah Cheese of the Universe* definitely what wrote:Damien Sullivan writes: Do you consider modern Western civilization to be 'high'? Boy, there's a straight line just begging to be abused... rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Nov 29 00:44:06 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:44:06 -0800 Subject: Domino's Lute In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129004328.02be9500@localhost> At 10:00 PM 11/28/2002 +0000, H. T. wrote: > believe, your choice of words had left me confused, Well, geez. Why should *I* be expected to use words well? Uh, wait... From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Fri Nov 29 00:50:03 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 02:50:03 -0600 Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. References: <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20021128124704.01da04b0@pop.east.cox.net> <20021128201031.GA13958@infodancer.org> <20021129070622.GC13958@infodancer.org> <20021129071621.GE13958@infodancer.org> <20021129080115.GI13958@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Gametech wrote: > 2. Who even says we have free will? Boxed choices seems to me not to > be free will. Free will means unrestrained choices (though it can > just mean the ability to exercise choice), the universe restrains us > to its laws. If god created the universe all he is doing is giving us > the ability to choose between his choices. That sounds very much to > me like the lack of free will. I'll even one up myself here, as long as any omnipotent being exists you can never attain the state of truly free will. This by the way applied at a lower level to children and parents is a common problem, if the parent suggests that such and such action will yield a bad result but go ahead and do it if you like causes an issue. The child if accepting this is taking the choice that the parent suggests, and if he doesn't accept this and fails like the parent said he would he is again following the parents resolution for the scenario. Only when the parent says 'what do you think you should do?' and the child comes up with the non failure solution does the child feel like he has defined his own choice, well other than that he can rebel, and no kids do that now do they? From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Fri Nov 29 00:52:18 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 02:52:18 -0600 Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. References: <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20021128124704.01da04b0@pop.east.cox.net> <20021128201031.GA13958@infodancer.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20021129004119.02bea3d0@localhost> Message-ID: Steven Brust wrote: > At 03:41 PM 11/28/2002 -0600, Gametech wrote: >> Matthew Hunter wrote: >> >> It's like saying Verra shared no responsibility (based on her >> influence) for the king of Elde island being assassinated. Ha! If >> your action brings enough influence over someone else's actions >> (maybe saying consciously is important, then again maybe not) do in >> fact share some of the responsibility of that action. > > Kindly stop trying to bring us back on topic. ;-) Yeah I tried I figured hey if I'm going to use an analogy I ought to use a Dragaeran one cause at least everyone will *get it* From Lydy at demesne.com Fri Nov 29 00:54:45 2002 From: Lydy at demesne.com (Lydia Nickerson) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 02:54:45 -0600 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: References: <20021128004853.23192.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 12:04 AM -0600 11/29/02, Gametech wrote: >Lydia Nickerson wrote: >> At 12:33 AM -0600 11/28/02, Gametech wrote: >>> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >>> >>> >>> however you lose the benefit of them believing >>> other good things as a side affect of that belief >> >> This is religion's Big Lie. People can be moral and kind and decent >> without the least bit of help from any supernatural source or belief. >> I get this constantly. "How do you decide what's right and wrong, if >> you don't believe in God?" Well, actually, roughly the way everybody >> else does, if they were paying attention to the way they really live >> their lives rather than how they think they live their lives. I >> operate on the "if it hurts, I'm probably doing this wrong" >> principal. Empathy is not a virtue instilled by religious practice; >> it is something that is part of the normal experience of being human. >> Wanting to prevent pain is one of the pillars of moral behavior. >> Recognizing that one's behavior has consequences is another. Neither >> one of these needs the least reference to the Invisible world. >> > >What I was saying about losing the benefit of... was an argument why >religion isn't all bad and does help some people towards positive things. I >was in NO way saying people aren't capable of it without religion, not in >the least. I was just stating that as a side affect of people believing in >their religion they often practice positive values in their daily lives. You are also assuming that if those people didn't have religion, they wouldn't be behaving that way. If they would behave in the same fashion without religion, then religion is irrelevant. I think that religion actually does harm by taking credit for the natural good in normal human beings. It diminishes our self esteem, which in turn diminishes our competence. > > >>> >>> What is so Awfully wrong about religion that counter's in it's >>> entirety the good aspects of it? >> >> What does religion have to offer that I wasn't born with, already? > >I hesitate in answering that question because I don't really care if you >believe in *a* religion, but I've been trying to keep the point that >religion itself is not entirely or even mostly a bad thing based on the good >it does. It's like anything else you can take it or leave it. Well, no, not really. Children get raised in religions, and that profoundly affects them all their lives. It informs societal norms and customs, it infects our laws. Religion is not an individual thing, it is a community thing. It affects the way people interact with each other. Which means that I _can't_ take it or leave it. It gets shoved in my face constantly. It affects what I can buy on what days of the week. It is a huge factor in whether or not I have the right to make choices about medical procedures for myself. You are arguing that not everything that was done in the name of religion was evil, and that not everyone who has ever been religious is bad or stupid. That's shifting ground, trying to turn this into an always/never argument. I'm not talking about a binary religious state, on/off, yes/no, always/never. What I'm saying is that religion does not offer any unique advantages. Religion cannot offer humans anything they don't already have in their bones, but it can alienate them from the ownership of those same virtues, as well as teach people to believe in things that they cannot prove, indeed cannot see, to :"reason" using arbitrary givens without reference to the real world. That is such a huge disadvantage that it would overcome many advantages, but religion doesn't even offer any advantages. It's just basically a bad idea. Just to confuse people, and myself, I'll also say that I have several RC friends and I understand their attachment to the Church, and I understand their faith. I can see the beauty and value of liturgy, religious practice, prayer, and faith. I see it more, though, like someone who has taken up a very serious artform. They are practicing something beautiful and important that goes all the way to their center. That view of religion doesn't require a belief in God, actually; it merely requires an appreciation of the artform of religion. That, I have. Inb the same sense that I think that beautiful music is of general benefit, so I think that beautiful religion is of general benefit. I just wish people didn't believe it quite so...literally. > >Maybe Purpose? Something to dedicate their life to? *shrug* Live and love? Such a short time to be here and such a long time to be gone? Afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted? Peace and justice? There are purposes a-plenty. Pick one. >There are people whom >just aren't creative thinking, who need to follow others and who need to >have "don't kill, be nice to strangers, take care of your body, etc." told >to them, I do not believe that. I think that people probably need to be taught about abstracts like property rights, at least in societies that have them, and some of the other social norms, like wearing clothes outside the house, but the serious basics are there, unless a) there's actual brain damage, in which case that person is fucked, or b) that child is damaged while being raised, in which case it depends on how bad the damage is whether or not that person is irrevocably fucked. And this is precisely what I mean about religion taking away our ownership of our own virtues. These are not things that need to be taught. How those virtues play out in the complex lattice of the society in which a person lives does need to be taught. > I think religion may symbolize hope to many people, you were born >with the ability to hope but with no particular purpose. Also people >subscribe to a certain religion because its core beliefs are similar to >their own so it is a way of associating with people whom have some similar >views. They could join their equivalent of fandom. Trainspotters do much the same for each other. Humans are gregarious creatures, we have to live in communities. The key is to gather together and work for a common cause. There's no particular value to having that goal be spiritual or magical, and the spiritual/magical has extra problems that organizing around, say, food aid for Nicauragua does not. > >Religion is a very social thing I don't really see how it can correctly be >compared to what it has that you didn't when you were born, it doesn't >possess anything (avoid the obvious witty comment) it's more like a tool >that is useful for as long as the wielder needs to learn the positive things >and practice them for the rest of his/her life. I am arguing that it is a redundant tool. People can find value, meaning, virtue, joy, purpose, hope, pride, and community without religion, and religion doesn't add anything to the mix of extra value, though it does extract a price. > >Religion isn't responsible for anything People >are. You must not have been raised in a seriously religious family. Trust me. Religion can, indeed, be a profound part of who people are, whether they want to or not. i was raised in a Calvinist church, and I have a very Calvinist outlook on life, fight it though I do. You are taking too narrow a view of what people are and how they interact with the world, in my opinion. Who you are is, in part, who you've been and what you've experienced. -- Lydy Nickerson lydy at demesne.com lydy at lydy.com Dulciculi Aliquorum From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Nov 29 00:52:46 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:52:46 -0800 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129005221.02bc0380@localhost> At 08:17 PM 11/28/2002 -0500, Mark A Mandel wrote: > >All together, now, class: > I before E, > except after C > or when pronounced "ay", > as in "neighbor" and "weigh". > >(Or any other time that it's followed by "gh", as in "height" > and in some other words that you just have to call exceptions, > like "seize".) And don't forget weird, which is weird. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Nov 29 00:54:43 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:54:43 -0800 Subject: new filk on FHYA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129005423.02bb8df0@localhost> At 09:25 PM 11/28/2002 -0500, Mark A Mandel wrote: >I'm currently AFB (away from books) and I haven't reread FHYA in a >while, but I think this is close enough to accuracy for "folk song". > >At The Seventeenth Cycle's End >Mark A. Mandel Copr. 2002 >Ttto In Good Old Colony Times, trad. >Based on Steven Brust's _Five Hundred Years After_ I like that! Mr. Hoover will like that! From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Nov 29 00:55:56 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:55:56 -0800 Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. In-Reply-To: <20021129070622.GC13958@infodancer.org> References: <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20021128124704.01da04b0@pop.east.cox.net> <20021128201031.GA13958@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129005531.02bb3a40@localhost> At 01:06 AM 11/29/2002 -0600, Matthew Hunter wrote: > >Creating a universe is one hell of a lot more like having kids >than hiring a hit man. That was *made* to be someone's SIG file. From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Nov 29 00:40:39 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 02:40:39 -0600 Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129004119.02bea3d0@localhost> References: <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20021128124704.01da04b0@pop.east.cox.net> <20021128201031.GA13958@infodancer.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20021129004119.02bea3d0@localhost> Message-ID: <20021129084039.GK13958@infodancer.org> On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 12:41:50AM -0800, Steven Brust wrote: > At 03:41 PM 11/28/2002 -0600, Gametech wrote: > >Matthew Hunter wrote: > >It's like saying Verra shared no responsibility (based on her influence) > >for > >the king of Elde island being assassinated. Ha! If your action brings > >enough > >influence over someone else's actions (maybe saying consciously is > >important, then again maybe not) do in fact share some of the > >responsibility of that action. > Kindly stop trying to bring us back on topic. ;-) Just to keep the attributions straight, I didn't write any of the above. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Nov 29 00:59:04 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:59:04 -0800 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <3DE64016.2090608@attbi.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126141008.02583540@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20021127162147.025ab2b0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20021127223605.0260cb70@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129005728.02dac4d0@localhost> At 10:11 AM 11/28/2002 -0600, Mia McDavid wrote: >SKZB said: > > >You've left out a few steps. > >Yah, but I haven't *taken* your last steps. No, and you are free to believe as you wish. Not because this is a free country, but because there's no way to stop you, and I wouldn't if I could. But I suggest that it is worthwhile for you to make a distinction between, "This is what I believe," and, "this is how broad, large-scale beliefs systems have changed." That latter is what I was addressing. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Nov 29 00:59:47 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 00:59:47 -0800 Subject: Thanks. In-Reply-To: <3DE6B53B.3090704@attbi.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129005934.02dade60@localhost> At 06:30 PM 11/28/2002 -0600, Mia McDavid wrote: >In fact, the discussion has been a miracle (sorry 'bout that. Habit) of >intelligence and civility. The fact that many of hold opposite opinions >ardently and we have been discussing this for 48 hours without resorting >to name-calling and abuse makes this the most civilized list I've ever been on. I agree. Bitch. From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Fri Nov 29 01:03:40 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 03:03:40 -0600 Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. References: <200211272109.gARL9pu05564@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20021128124704.01da04b0@pop.east.cox.net> <20021128201031.GA13958@infodancer.org> <20021129070622.GC13958@infodancer.org> <20021129071621.GE13958@infodancer.org> <20021129080115.GI13958@infodancer.org> <20021129082444.GJ13958@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 02:38:25AM -0600, Gametech > wrote: >> 2. Who even says we have free will? Boxed choices seems to me not to >> be free will. Free will means unrestrained choices (though it can >> just mean the ability to exercise choice), the universe restrains us >> to its laws. If god created the universe all he is doing is giving >> us the ability to choose between his choices. That sounds very much >> to me like the lack of free will. > > That implies that omnipotence is the only route to free will. > That's not valid. Free will is the ability to choose your own > actions freely -- it doesn't require that the universe fulfill > your desires as well. > > I already prefaced the fact that I was using definition #2 to free will (unrestrained choice) God's existence would be a restraint to my choice, or for that matter universal laws that were unbendable with the right pressure applied to them, the latter would be ignorance tat restrained my free will but I can clearly go learn more about the universe to bend it to my 'free will' but you can't contradict an omnipotent being. >At any rate, if you are going to go to such lengths to continue > being obtuse, there's no point in continuing. You mean if I'm going to spend effort to explain my statements to someone who doesn't acknowledge my word usage (literal) you should quit reading because you aren't interested in what I have to say? From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Fri Nov 29 01:26:22 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 03:26:22 -0600 Subject: The Religion Debate References: <20021128004853.23192.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Lydia Nickerson wrote: > At 12:04 AM -0600 11/29/02, Gametech wrote: >> Lydia Nickerson wrote: >>> At 12:33 AM -0600 11/28/02, Gametech wrote: >>>> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> however you lose the benefit of them believing >>>> other good things as a side affect of that belief >>> >>> This is religion's Big Lie. People can be moral and kind and >>> decent without the least bit of help from any supernatural source >>> or belief. I get this constantly. "How do you decide what's right >>> and wrong, if you don't believe in God?" Well, actually, roughly >>> the way everybody else does, if they were paying attention to the >>> way they really live their lives rather than how they think they >>> live their lives. I operate on the "if it hurts, I'm probably >>> doing this wrong" principal. Empathy is not a virtue instilled by >>> religious practice; it is something that is part of the normal >>> experience of being human. Wanting to prevent pain is one of the >>> pillars of moral behavior. Recognizing that one's behavior has >>> consequences is another. Neither one of these needs the least >>> reference to the Invisible world. >>> >> >> What I was saying about losing the benefit of... was an argument why >> religion isn't all bad and does help some people towards positive >> things. I was in NO way saying people aren't capable of it without >> religion, not in the least. I was just stating that as a side affect >> of people believing in their religion they often practice positive >> values in their daily lives. > > You are also assuming that if those people didn't have religion, they > wouldn't be behaving that way. If they would behave in the same > fashion without religion, then religion is irrelevant. I think that > religion actually does harm by taking credit for the natural good in > normal human beings. It diminishes our self esteem, which in turn > diminishes our competence. > Religion isn't taking credit for anything near as I can tell, religion functions like a school does in many ways. >> >> >>>> >>>> What is so Awfully wrong about religion that counter's in it's >>>> entirety the good aspects of it? >>> >>> What does religion have to offer that I wasn't born with, already? >> >> I hesitate in answering that question because I don't really care if >> you believe in *a* religion, but I've been trying to keep the point >> that religion itself is not entirely or even mostly a bad thing >> based on the good it does. It's like anything else you can take it >> or leave it. > > Well, no, not really. Children get raised in religions, and that > profoundly affects them all their lives. It informs societal norms > and customs, it infects our laws. Religion is not an individual > thing, it is a community thing. It affects the way people interact > with each other. Which means that I _can't_ take it or leave it. It > gets shoved in my face constantly. It affects what I can buy on what > days of the week. It is a huge factor in whether or not I have the > right to make choices about medical procedures for myself. > I stated before I was born into a religion, and don't feel this way, it is a personal choice you *can take it or leave it* you feel that you can't but you very well have the ability to make that choice don't you? > You are arguing that not everything that was done in the name of > religion was evil, and that not everyone who has ever been religious > is bad or stupid. That's shifting ground, trying to turn this into > an always/never argument. I'm not talking about a binary religious > state, on/off, yes/no, always/never. What I'm saying is that > religion does not offer any unique advantages. Religion cannot offer > humans anything they don't already have in their bones, but it can > alienate them from the ownership of those same virtues, as well as > teach people to believe in things that they cannot prove, indeed > cannot see, to :"reason" using arbitrary givens without reference to > the real world. That is such a huge disadvantage that it would > overcome many advantages, but religion doesn't even offer any > advantages. It's just basically a bad idea. > Because religion originates from humans it is a human thing it is something we don't have in our bones that we created because we didn't > Just to confuse people, and myself, I'll also say that I have several > RC friends and I understand their attachment to the Church, and I > understand their faith. I can see the beauty and value of liturgy, > religious practice, prayer, and faith. I see it more, though, like > someone who has taken up a very serious artform. They are practicing > something beautiful and important that goes all the way to their > center. That view of religion doesn't require a belief in God, > actually; it merely requires an appreciation of the artform of > religion. That, I have. Inb the same sense that I think that > beautiful music is of general benefit, so I think that beautiful > religion is of general benefit. I just wish people didn't believe it > quite so...literally. > > >> >> Maybe Purpose? Something to dedicate their life to? > > *shrug* Live and love? Such a short time to be here and such a long > time to be gone? Afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted? > Peace and justice? There are purposes a-plenty. Pick one. right and one of them is religion for some people > >> There are people whom >> just aren't creative thinking, who need to follow others and who >> need to have "don't kill, be nice to strangers, take care of your >> body, etc." told to them, > > I do not believe that. I think that people probably need to be > taught about abstracts like property rights, at least in societies > that have them, and some of the other social norms, like wearing > clothes outside the house, but the serious basics are there, unless > a) there's actual brain damage, in which case that person is fucked, > or b) that child is damaged while being raised, in which case it > depends on how bad the damage is whether or not that person is > irrevocably fucked. And this is precisely what I mean about religion > taking away our ownership of our own virtues. These are not things > that need to be taught. How those virtues play out in the complex > lattice of the society in which a person lives does need to be taught. > Though you may not acknowledge it there are in fact many people whom creative thinking isn't a skill of theirs, and do benifit from the rest of whom are. Why doesn't eveyone write? Produce art? Explore Philosophy? >> I think religion may symbolize hope to many people, you were born >> with the ability to hope but with no particular purpose. Also people >> subscribe to a certain religion because its core beliefs are similar >> to their own so it is a way of associating with people whom have >> some similar views. > > They could join their equivalent of fandom. Trainspotters do much > the same for each other. Humans are gregarious creatures, we have to > live in communities. The key is to gather together and work for a > common cause. There's no particular value to having that goal be > spiritual or magical, and the spiritual/magical has extra problems > that organizing around, say, food aid for Nicauragua does not. > > I agree! It doesn't matter what it is really imagine this argument from the flip and insert any of those options instead of religion and ask me to defend it and I will in the same manner! >> >> Religion is a very social thing I don't really see how it can >> correctly be compared to what it has that you didn't when you were >> born, it doesn't possess anything (avoid the obvious witty comment) >> it's more like a tool that is useful for as long as the wielder >> needs to learn the positive things and practice them for the rest of >> his/her life. > > I am arguing that it is a redundant tool. People can find value, > meaning, virtue, joy, purpose, hope, pride, and community without > religion, and religion doesn't add anything to the mix of extra > value, though it does extract a price. > It isn't redundant because it has it's own unique qualities as does other similar ideas. >> >> Religion isn't responsible for anything People >> are. > > You must not have been raised in a seriously religious family. Trust > me. Religion can, indeed, be a profound part of who people are, > whether they want to or not. i was raised in a Calvinist church, and > I have a very Calvinist outlook on life, fight it though I do. You > are taking too narrow a view of what people are and how they interact > with the world, in my opinion. Who you are is, in part, who you've > been and what you've experienced. > The level of influece you need to fight is the 'dumb shit' aspect I don't find that hard to do at all, and your horrid assumption about the level of religious ness of my family is founded on the fact you want to make a better point and not in reality, to my family the religion was Very forefront, I hope you take my word on that. > Lydy Nickerson lydy at demesne.com lydy at lydy.com > Dulciculi Aliquorum From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Fri Nov 29 01:29:52 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 03:29:52 -0600 Subject: Thanks. References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129005934.02dade60@localhost> Message-ID: Steven Brust wrote: > At 06:30 PM 11/28/2002 -0600, Mia McDavid wrote: >> In fact, the discussion has been a miracle (sorry 'bout that. >> Habit) of intelligence and civility. The fact that many of hold >> opposite opinions ardently and we have been discussing this for 48 >> hours without resorting to name-calling and abuse makes this the >> most civilized list I've ever been on. > > I agree. > > Bitch. Damn you, I've laughed twice in 5 minutes becuase of you! I'm trying to be serious and now I've got no chance of that. Thanks :) From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Fri Nov 29 01:47:57 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 03:47:57 -0600 Subject: Thus far (was religion) Message-ID: So I was thinking about what we've gotten so far Some of us: Believe in god Aren't exactly sure and think we can't ever know Believe there is no god Some of us: Think religion is bad Think religion isn't bad people are Think religion is good Think religion isn't good people are I think that: We are all pissy that we don't have Paths of the Dead yet so we are all arguing about God and Religion. Predictable. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Nov 29 01:53:16 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 01:53:16 -0800 Subject: The Great Debate....to DDB In-Reply-To: <20021129082105.59762.qmail@web21106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129014814.02d7db10@localhost> At 12:21 AM 11/29/2002 -0800, Caliann the Elf wrote: > > If religion is harmful, does it necessarily follow that the absence >of > > religion is beneficial? > >Relatively, yes. > >************************************************************************************** > >Please elaborate on this, I may have misread it. Does this mean that if >we kill off everyone that has a belief in the supernatural and burn every >copy of any kind of scripture, we will have the ability to achieve Utopia? That's sort of an extreme jump, isn't it? To say that absense of poverty is beneficial does not imply that we should kill all poor people. (Hmmm. On the other hand, killing all *rich* people has a lot going for it, as long as I get to define "rich".) > > >For me the real bottom-line argument is that religion, any religion, >is *false*. Basing your life on a falsehood is bad. > >************************************************************************************** > >So are you telling those in this forum that if they *do* believe in a >religion, there entire lives are false? If they disagree with you, it's >only because they have been brainwashed by religion and are therefore "bad"? Again, you are over-stating. If you hold one false belief, it does not imply that your whole life is lie. If that were true, everyone would be living a lie except me. > > >Very mildly. But they're still encouraging people to believe things >on faith rather than evidence, for example, and that's bad. People do >far to little thinking. > >************************************************************************************** > >Clarify this for me please, are you saying that those that follow a >religion don't think? Let's not say everyone. Let us speak of someone who says, "I believe. I believe purely on faith." Now, would you say that this person, on this subject, is thinking? From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Nov 29 01:58:42 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 01:58:42 -0800 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: References: <00b901c296d0$56a1bf40$2b20d118@neo.rr.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20021128050520.02989150@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20021128234509.02cbd190@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129015824.02d8a820@localhost> At 02:11 AM 11/29/2002 -0600, Gametech wrote: >Steven Brust wrote: > > > >> > >>> I am not to blame for being god. > >>> The position was forced upon me. > >> > >> Well you wouldn't be the first genre author to start a religion:) > >> > >> I will get worried when you start living on a boat[1]. > > > > Well, actually, if truth be told, I dream of life on a Mississipi > > River steamboat. And I could do it, too. Anyone have a spare six > > million dollars? Maybe God will give it to me. > >I take it that if someone just gave you 6 million dollars to pursue this >dream you'd consider them god? >I wouldn't balme you! Well....at least a good candidate for sainthood. From baralier at optusnet.com.au Fri Nov 29 02:59:35 2002 From: baralier at optusnet.com.au (Baralier) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:59:35 +1100 Subject: Thus far (was religion) References: Message-ID: <009601c29796$687d5cd0$18a231d2@valadan> "Gametech" said... >I think that: > > >We are all pissy that we don't have Paths of the Dead yet >so we are all arguing about God and Religion. *bravo*! If I invoke nazis does that end the thread? Actually on this list it will probably start 7 more. Paul -- Good planning and organisation are just crutches for people who can't handle stress and caffeine. http://members.optushome.com.au/velvetspyder Costumier & Reprobate From calianng_graves at yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 03:01:44 2002 From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 03:01:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021129110145.76256.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> Lydia Nickerson wrote: >Religion isn't responsible for anything People >are. You must not have been raised in a seriously religious family. Trust me. Religion can, indeed, be a profound part of who people are, whether they want to or not. i was raised in a Calvinist church, and I have a very Calvinist outlook on life, fight it though I do. You are taking too narrow a view of what people are and how they interact with the world, in my opinion. Who you are is, in part, who you've been and what you've experienced. *************************************************************************************** I find this hilariously funny. We have had friends over tonight and, due to this lovely debate upon this list, the subject turned to religion. The one friend I have been talking to was raised Catholic and is now, I would say, just lost. Not religeous, not agnostic, not athiest, just uncertain. I cannot remember right now the exact discussion, but Steve and I got reference Bibles out to answer some questions. After a while, Steve got involved in a computer game. The friend and I were talking about Atheism and I mentioned that Steve's parents were Atheist and that childhood conditioning continues through adulthood. Hhhmmm, now this is a thought. Steve did not take offense, but it got his attention. He mentioned that Atheism has often been seen by outsiders as "rebelling" against religious parents...and that he could at least say he wasn't rebelling. Then I mentioned that I have NEVER used the term to describe someone's beliefs as " You must be rebelling against your parents", as I believe early conditioning has MUCH more of an effect on one's adult beliefs than the brief "rebelling" phase. This is a concept I'd like to follow. Could Atheism be just as much a "taught" belief in childhood as religion? Imagine a world where "religions" ( yes, in plural) was a class taught in grade school...and Atheism was taught along with it. A completely academic study of the belief systems. I really wonder where it would go from there. Peace, Caliann *Owned and Operated by the Grand Poohbah Cheese of the Universe* "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now From calianng_graves at yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 03:15:08 2002 From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 03:15:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Great Debate....to DDB In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129014814.02d7db10@localhost> Message-ID: <20021129111508.30400.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com> Steven Brust wrote: Let's not say everyone. Let us speak of someone who says, "I believe. I believe purely on faith." Now, would you say that this person, on this subject, is thinking? Steve, oh light of my life, oh reason for my existence, when you have FULLY immersed yourself in some religion besides Atheism, you can imply to me that someone who is believing on faith in *A* subject ( the implied subject is a religion) isn't thinking. Go get "saved", start a meditation group in Yoga or start practicing witchcraft. When you have done so...and at least given the full attempt to practice something OTHER than what you have originally been taught...and I am talking a FULL immersion...study, practice, TRY, THEN come talk to me about how believing on faith in *A* subject ( implying religion) is not thinking. Peace and Love, Caliann *Owned and Operated by the Grand Poohbah Cheese of the Universe* "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Nov 29 03:21:12 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 03:21:12 -0800 Subject: The Great Debate....to DDB In-Reply-To: <20021129111508.30400.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129014814.02d7db10@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129031517.02d92110@localhost> At 03:15 AM 11/29/2002 -0800, Caliann the Elf wrote: > > Steven Brust wrote: > >Let's not say everyone. Let us speak of someone who says, "I believe. I >believe purely on faith." Now, would you say that this person, on this >subject, is thinking? > > > > > Steve, oh light of my life, oh reason for my existence, when >you have FULLY immersed yourself in some religion besides Atheism, you can >imply to me that someone who is believing on faith in *A* subject ( the >implied subject is a religion) isn't thinking. > >Go get "saved", start a meditation group in Yoga or start practicing >witchcraft. When you have done so...and at least given the full attempt >to practice something OTHER than what you have originally been >taught...and I am talking a FULL immersion...study, practice, TRY, THEN >come talk to me about how believing on faith in *A* subject ( implying >religion) is not thinking. > > Flame of my life, soul of my heart, supreme olive of my orchard, &tc &tc: rubbish. There is discussion going on about how the "reply" function ought to work on this listgroup. I am in favor of keeping it as it is. Why? Because, even though the other way of doing it (reply goes to the list, not the person) is more convenient, I have been told that there are hidden dangers involving potential hacking and suchlike to doing it that. Do I know this is true? No, but I have *faith* in DDB, who told me, and...I BELIEVE! This is faith. On this subject, I am NOT thinking. I am accepting an answer on faith. My treatment of religion tends to be different, but I can accept that others chose faith rather than reason as an approach to this subject. And I can accept that DDB thinks doing so is an error. From divyasatyam at satyam.net.in Fri Nov 29 04:12:31 2002 From: divyasatyam at satyam.net.in (Divya) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 17:42:31 +0530 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021127211557.026e3710@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20021129000056.02c010b0@localhost> Message-ID: <017e01c297a0$98896d60$197bd2d2@satyam.net.in> "Steven Brust" > Uh...I don't think anyone has disputed that. I was arguing for the > Incredible Shrinking God. I don't think you can find anything in the last > few hundred years og Buddhist or Hindu teachings to dispute that. I mean, > the Hindu's are even getting away from the *caste* system, which was > decreed by the gods in the first place. There is a small factual error in the last sentence: the caste system wasn't decreed by the Gods-- even the most ancient sources known attribute the origins of the caste system to the "first man", i.e., Manu. Not strictly analogous to Adam, but close. [The sourcebook for the caste system is the Manu Smriti, which in its current form has been dated to the first century BCE, as opposed to the earliest Vedas, which go back to 1800 BCE or earlier. Even Panini's grammar is older than the Manu Smriti - about 400 BCE.] Also, the "caste system" has been changing continuously over the last few millenia; the only real apparent continuity is the fact that a caste system in some avatar has existed in large parts of the subcontinent (not all of it) for about 4000 years. cheers, Divya ----------- Laudant illa, sed ista legunt. -- Marcus Valerius Martialis, Epigrammaton liber From casey at trinityhartford.org Fri Nov 29 05:28:36 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 08:28:36 -0500 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <20021129110145.76256.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001c297ab$3d840820$a902a8c0@KCRINSP8200> Caliann wrote: > Hhhmmm, now this is a thought. Steve did not take offense, > but it got his attention. He mentioned that Atheism has > often been seen by outsiders as "rebelling" against religious > parents...and that he could at least say he wasn't rebelling. > > > > Then I mentioned that I have NEVER used the term to describe > someone's beliefs as " You must be rebelling against your > parents", as I believe early conditioning has MUCH more of an > effect on one's adult beliefs than the brief "rebelling" phase. > > This is a concept I'd like to follow. Could Atheism be just > as much a "taught" belief in childhood as religion? > > Imagine a world where "religions" ( yes, in plural) was a > class taught in grade school...and Atheism was taught along > with it. A completely academic study of the belief systems. The most devout atheists I know were taught by their parents to be atheists. I was going to make this comment earlier, but the single scariest truth I have learned as a parent is that if you tell your child something often enough and consistently enough, they will believe it at a level that will be difficult to overcome later in life. Note that this is also a source of great hope. Casey From grapawy at yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 06:02:30 2002 From: grapawy at yahoo.com (Greg Rapawy) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 06:02:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Great Debate....to DDB In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129014814.02d7db10@localhost> Message-ID: <20021129140230.66736.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com> SKZB wrote: [...] > Let's not say everyone. Let us speak of someone who > says, "I believe. I believe purely on faith." Now, > would you say that this person, on this subject, is > thinking? Well, it is always difficult to get inside another person's head. From my own experience I would say that even though I am convinced that a thing is true, and even though I may be doing my best *not* to think about whether it is true or false, I cannot reach the state of "not thinking about" something important to me. The best I can do is "not thinking much about" or "trying not to think about," although the latter usually also means "thinking a lot about." As matters of religious faith are usually considered important, either (1) your speaker's subjective experience is substantially different from mine in this respect, or (2) your speaker continues to think about subjects in which he or she has faith. I prefer the latter explanation, though I am not sure I could defend that preference rigorously. -- Greg (As a side note, some writers on religion strike me as thinking quite a lot about matters of religious faith. Some express doubts they continue to have, and struggle with. Others explore the rational consequences of their faith in attempting to create an internally consistent system of theology. I would not describe C.S. Lewis, to take an example brought up not long ago, as "not thinking about" the subject of God.) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From jazzfish at softhome.net Fri Nov 29 06:08:52 2002 From: jazzfish at softhome.net (Tucker) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 09:08:52 -0500 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <15843.46891.246035.618358@gw.dd-b.net> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127153459.00a5b510@dd-b.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20021129090349.02ab7360@pop.softhome.net> >1. Have you accidentally sent a private reply instead of posting to > the list? Once. First post I made. It was kind of unexpected, so next time I checked the "To" headers in my reply and got it all straightened out. >1'. Have you accidentally posted to the list instead of sending a > private reply? The way this list is set up, that would take effort. (I consider this a Good Thing, having accidentally posted to other lists.) >2. Have you received an accidental private reply that was meant to go > to the list? Nope. But then, I'm new, and staying out of the religion debate. >3. When you get a message that was sent to you instead of the list, do > you feel obliged to query the sender to ask him or her if it was > meant to private instead of to the list? No. I assume that other people are smarter than me, or at least have been around longer than me and know how things work. >4. Has the Reply-To behavior of this list caused you confusion when > posting to other mailing lists, perhaps even causing you to > accidentally send a private e-mail instead of posting or vice > versa? Nope. >5. How do you feel about the Reply-To behavior of this list? > Do you > + like it I'm a fan, but Eudora allows me to "Reply to all" and delete the sender's address so that it goes to the list. I've not seen a "Reply-to-list" list where "Reply to all" will catch both the sender and the list addresses. (Of course, having said that, I nearly sent this off-list.) ---- The time for action is past-- now is the time for senseless bickering! --Ashleigh Brilliant From rsuitor at cjwrfs.net Fri Nov 29 06:33:27 2002 From: rsuitor at cjwrfs.net (Richard Suitor) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 09:33:27 -0500 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <15843.46891.246035.618358@gw.dd-b.net> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127153459.00a5b510@dd-b.net> Message-ID: <04ueuus8guakoishj19l0hjhbffvp7te9t@4ax.com> On Thu, 28 Nov 2002 22:20:53 -0500, Thomas Yan wrote: >Well, it won't necessarily convince anyone, but let's have a little poll: > >1. Have you accidentally sent a private reply instead of posting to > the list? Sure - I think you (TY) were one . . . > >1'. Have you accidentally posted to the list instead of sending a > private reply? Never (unlike other lists ;<) ) > >2. Have you received an accidental private reply that was meant to go > to the list? Don't think so. > >3. When you get a message that was sent to you instead of the list, do > you feel obliged to query the sender to ask him or her if it was > meant to private instead of to the list? Haven't yet, but perhaps I should have. > >4. Has the Reply-To behavior of this list caused you confusion when > posting to other mailing lists, perhaps even causing you to > accidentally send a private e-mail instead of posting or vice > versa? No - I have kept the confusion nicely bottled to this list and the associated Read list. > >5. How do you feel about the Reply-To behavior of this list? > + dislike it I have a fairly easy system worked out now - my mailer allows a nickname for the list address, so it isn't much work. The suggested reply-to-all strategy is more awkward and normally less desirable for all the preceding posters. The problem is, I'm an old dog, and learning new tricks is . . . problematical. I'd be less annoyed if I could comprehend a reason for why this list is different from all other lists. I think there was some discussion early on, but I didn't gather much beyond this is the way the people who set it up want it. Richard From rsuitor at cjwrfs.net Fri Nov 29 06:38:57 2002 From: rsuitor at cjwrfs.net (Richard Suitor) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 09:38:57 -0500 Subject: new filk on FHYA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Nov 2002 21:25:59 -0500, Mark A Mandel wrote: >At the Seventeenth Cycle's end > With the Phoenix fated to fail Very good. One of my favorite tunes. I like these lyrics better than the original. Hope you feel better soon. Richard From dar at horusinc.com Fri Nov 29 06:57:11 2002 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 08:57:11 -0600 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) In-Reply-To: <000a01c29769$5532ad60$a902a8c0@KCRINSP8200> Message-ID: Bah. Hate it, hate it, hate it. Love the list, so I stay with it. David From pgranzeau at cox.net Fri Nov 29 06:24:05 2002 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 09:24:05 -0500 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129005221.02bc0380@localhost> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20021129092023.01d93600@pop.east.cox.net> At 00:52 11/29/2002 -0800, Steven Brust wrote: >At 08:17 PM 11/28/2002 -0500, Mark A Mandel wrote: >> >>All together, now, class: >> I before E, >> except after C >> or when pronounced "ay", >> as in "neighbor" and "weigh". >> >>(Or any other time that it's followed by "gh", as in "height" >> and in some other words that you just have to call exceptions, >> like "seize".) > >And don't forget weird, which is weird. German-derived words with the long "i" sound (beer stein), as well. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From pgranzeau at cox.net Fri Nov 29 06:32:06 2002 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 09:32:06 -0500 Subject: new filk on FHYA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20021129092846.01d94240@pop.east.cox.net> At 21:25 11/28/2002 -0500, Mark A Mandel wrote: >I'm currently AFB (away from books) and I haven't reread FHYA in a >while, but I think this is close enough to accuracy for "folk song". > >At The Seventeenth Cycle's End >Mark A. Mandel Copr. 2002 >Ttto In Good Old Colony Times, trad. >Based on Steven Brust's _Five Hundred Years After_ > >(Note: "Jhereg" is pronounced "zhuh-REG", where "zh" is the sound of "s" >in "pleasure", and accented on the second syllable, roughly rhyming with >"break a leg" as said to an actor or an enforcer.) > > At the Seventeenth Cycle's end > With the Phoenix fated to fail > A Jhereg, a Tiassa, and a Dragon proud > Were part of a tragic tale > Part of a tragic tale I think this line is repeated again--at least, as I learned "Good Old Colony Times", it is. The second repeat ends on a minor chord (a instead of C when I strum it). > A Jhereg, a Tiassa, and a Dragon proud > Were part of a tragic tale > > The Jhereg was betrayed by his House > The Tiassa by the great > And the Dragon was betrayed by his soaring pride > And the twisted workings of fate > [repeat as above] > > The Jhereg got his revenge > The Tiassa his reward > And the Dragon was dissolved in swirling Chaos > When he tried to take the Orb > > Now, nobody's seen the Jhereg > The Tiassa can still draw blood > And the Dragon's ghost haunts the Lesser Sea of Chaos > Where Dragaera City once stood > >-- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname > http://world.std.com/~mam/filk.html > http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ > a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website Otherwise, very nice. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From dar at horusinc.com Fri Nov 29 07:07:20 2002 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 09:07:20 -0600 Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. In-Reply-To: <20021129071450.GD13958@infodancer.org> Message-ID: > > Are you responsible for the actions of your children once they reach > > adulthood and attain free will? > > This is a terrible assumption, in my opinion. Nobody attains free > > will ("free will" itself is a canard, painted as an opposite to > > "fate", when they're really the same damned thing); we're born with > > the ability to make decisions, and as our mind develops, we can make > > more complex decisions. > > > > "Adulthood" as it exists in most of Western civilization is pretty > > broken, too; upon puberty, we should be helping kids to start making > > 'adult' decisions, but instead we continue to treat them as children. > > Then 18 rolls along and we suddenly let go. "You're on your own!" > > I agree with you, but in the content of this discussion it's > irrelevant. Point is, at some point your children attain > independence of decision-making from you, and from that point on, > you are no longer responsible for their actions. Society marks > that as age 18, which is a really bad way to do it, but there > aren't any obvious better ways. I would like to point out that this whole line of discussion seems to be predicated on the fact that, Deity having created the universe and everything in it, he/she/it has a parental responsibility. What if the analogy is more along the lines of the individual who made a wildlife preserve? Creatures live, die, kill, love, etc all along perfectly natural lines. Perhaps Deity doesn't love humans any more, or any less, than a deer. There are certain parts of humanity which seem prone to violence, perhaps there is a reason for this... Natural or Supernatural order y'know David From nthuleen at students.wisc.edu Fri Nov 29 07:21:50 2002 From: nthuleen at students.wisc.edu (Nancy Thuleen) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 09:21:50 -0600 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <15843.46891.246035.618358@gw.dd-b.net> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127153459.00a5b510@dd-b.net> Message-ID: At 22:20 -0500 28.11.2002, Thomas Yan wrote: > 1. Have you accidentally sent a private reply instead of posting to > the list? No, but I've only posted a handful of times. > 2. Have you received an accidental private reply that was meant to go > to the list? No, but see above. > 4. Has the Reply-To behavior of this list caused you confusion when > posting to other mailing lists, perhaps even causing you to > accidentally send a private e-mail instead of posting or vice > versa? Definitely not. This is what puzzles me: I'm on 5 or 6 lists like this one (discussion-based lists), and with only one exception, they all have the reply-to set to the individual poster, just like this list -- correctly, in other words. :) Do I just belong to unusual lists, or is this really not the norm? One list I've been on since 1993 has had it that way forever, and all of the others have had that set since their inception. Only one list -- and the one I'd characterize as less technologically-savvy, that was the offspring of a web board -- has the reply-to set to list, and we must get at *least* three or four messages a week that were meant to be private. Some of those are nothing horrible, but there have been more than a few flame wars that erupted because of something that should have been kept private. Because posting private email unintentionally seems like a far more serious cause for embarrassment (and possible list turmoil) than the reverse, I've always been in favor of the reply-to-poster setting. Of course it doesn't matter to me too much, since I rarely post and Eudora has an easy 'reply-to-all' and nickname function, but I still say it seems the more logical choice. > 5. How do you feel about the Reply-To behavior of this list? > Do you > + love it > + like it Not strongly, but I am in favor of it. - Nancy. From dar at horusinc.com Fri Nov 29 07:28:12 2002 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 09:28:12 -0600 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <20021129110145.76256.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Then I mentioned that I have NEVER used the term to describe > someone's beliefs as " You must be rebelling against your > parents", as I believe early conditioning has MUCH more of an > effect on one's adult beliefs than the brief "rebelling" phase. > > This is a concept I'd like to follow. Could Atheism be just as > much a "taught" belief in childhood as religion? > > Imagine a world where "religions" ( yes, in plural) was a class > taught in grade school...and Atheism was taught along with it. A > completely academic study of the belief systems. Try a Sunday School program in the Unitarian Church. Live it, learn it, love it! David (Ok, it's not exactly completely academic, but it is focused on teaching the skills to the students to determine what *they* want to believe... And Atheism is a valid choice.) From dar at horusinc.com Fri Nov 29 07:30:27 2002 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 09:30:27 -0600 Subject: The Great Debate....to DDB In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129014814.02d7db10@localhost> Message-ID: > >Very mildly. But they're still encouraging people to believe things > >on faith rather than evidence, for example, and that's bad. People do > >far to little thinking. > > > >***************************************************************** > ********************* > > > >Clarify this for me please, are you saying that those that follow a > >religion don't think? > > Let's not say everyone. Let us speak of someone who says, "I believe. I > believe purely on faith." Now, would you say that this person, on this > subject, is thinking? Any type of mathematics beyond the measurement of discrete objects that can be physically manipulated and observed at the time of 'belief'. David From ladyqryz at hotmail.com Fri Nov 29 07:53:02 2002 From: ladyqryz at hotmail.com (Lady Qryz) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 15:53:02 +0000 Subject: Intro and ummmm...stuff Message-ID: Hail and well met! Having now perused all 8642 messages posted in the month of November, I'll say the following: 1) I agree with most recommendations for beginning books, and would include Jane Langton's _The Swing in the Summerhouse_ and _The Diamond in the Window_. The latter has Ralph Waldo Emerson running all through it! Also Alan Garner (Weirdstone of Brisingamen, Elidor). Eager, Nesbit, LeGuin, L'Engle and yes, Dahl, are all great young adult books. Whatever happens, do NOT allow children to read Dahl's adult work, which is wicked and quite funny and they absolutely don't deserve *weg*. My dad says I was born reading - I finished all LoTR before I was 8, got obsessed with vampires when I was 10 (thus my first training as a researcher) and read _The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich_ TWICE in the summer of my 6th grade year because yes, I was really bored. As Steve says, its not what we read that sets us apart, its that we read at all. 2) Liver is good, but only in a nice pate. 3) The One True Stuffing is Mrs. Cubbisons, with a pinch of Pepperidge Farm thrown in. The Only Acceptable Additions are celery and water chestnuts. After 15 years, the family still argues about the celery. 4) I like to read in total silence so nothing interferes with the movie in my head. 5) As Queen of the Universe and Goddess (Acting), who am I to deny the possibility of other deities? Do carry on. Qryz "To manage men one ought to have a sharp mind in a velvet sheath." --George Eliot 1819-1880 _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From ajmcguigan at yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 08:35:04 2002 From: ajmcguigan at yahoo.com (Andrew McGuigan) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 08:35:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129000056.02c010b0@localhost> Message-ID: <20021129163504.72009.qmail@web12705.mail.yahoo.com> --- Steven Brust wrote: > > Why do we love each > >other in the abscense of children? > > I'm not sure what this means. Well, I've heard from some people that "love" is an evolutionary survivial mechanism to insure parental bonding, which in turn helps progeny to survive. > > >Why are prayers > >answered? > > Because many of us are skilled at lying to > ourselves. > Well, I guess there is no way to "prove" prayers are answered. hmpfh. I guess you would not agree with the phrase "Co-incidence is God's way of remaining anonymous?" :) > > > >I am arguing, I guess, that things can change > without > >becoming "unrecognizable". > > Uh...I don't think anyone has disputed that. I was > arguing for the > Incredible Shrinking God. I don't think you can > find anything in the last > few hundred years og Buddhist or Hindu teachings to > dispute that. I mean, > the Hindu's are even getting away from the *caste* > system, which was > decreed by the gods in the first place. > Ok, well then we are arguing over different things. I was arguing that "religion" was not shrinking, and thus it made sense that it would exist in the far future, as opposed to "God" shrinking. Andrew From ajmcguigan at yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 08:38:04 2002 From: ajmcguigan at yahoo.com (Andrew McGuigan) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 08:38:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129000000.02cbd680@localhost> Message-ID: <20021129163804.39058.qmail@web12707.mail.yahoo.com> > > If you believe what you quoted supports your > hypothesis, not mine, then > we'll just have to agree to disagree. > Agreed. From ajmcguigan at yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 08:44:47 2002 From: ajmcguigan at yahoo.com (Andrew McGuigan) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 08:44:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021129164447.22635.qmail@web12708.mail.yahoo.com> I don't like it mainly because I usually forget to do "reply to all" since in regular e-mail I've trained myself out of it. Also, I can never remember how to spell "dragaera" (dyslexic). :) Andrew From rsuitor at cjwrfs.net Fri Nov 29 08:46:02 2002 From: rsuitor at cjwrfs.net (Richard Suitor) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 11:46:02 -0500 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021128234509.02cbd190@localhost> References: <00b901c296d0$56a1bf40$2b20d118@neo.rr.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20021128050520.02989150@localhost> <3DE6BD13.7020901@networkharmoni.com.au> <5.1.0.14.0.20021128234509.02cbd190@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Nov 2002 23:58:03 -0800, Steven Brust wrote: >Let me try it this way: we are not here to "prove" that our ideas >of the world are correct. We are here to make the world what we wish it to >be. Doing so requires that our ideas be as close to reality as we can get. Thank you. This is an example of what I mean of something that will not be provable scientifically (and thus not subject to being wrested away from the Incredible Shrinking God, although I am not accusing you of shopping there to acquire this.) It sounds a lot like the basis for a religion except there are no superhuman beings (SHB). I detect a certain bitterness (in several) toward SHB because of the evils that have been committed in their name. Or toward the belief in SHB for those who don't wish to be bitter toward those they firmly believe don't exist :<) I'd direct that more to those people who find the power resident in an idea and abuse the power. Such an idea does not require SHB. E.g. communism - successfully practiced in some form in many societies, large and small, and whose power was seriously abused by many, notably comrade Stalin. And yes, I realise I'm treading on your turf, here, no, I'm not qualified - I'm still struggling through Freedom and Necessity. But how would you distinguish a heartfelt conviction that a particular form of social order is in some way best for man from a heartfelt conviction that another set of teachings that happen to involve SHB is best for man? The fact that many of the SHB religions involve factions that are ultra traditional and require slavish adherence to ancient texts is not a valid distinction - that is a property of man; communism is young yet, but already has had its own executions for heresy ;<). Richard From chrislee at neo.rr.com Fri Nov 29 08:50:57 2002 From: chrislee at neo.rr.com (chris cunningham) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 11:50:57 -0500 Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. References: Message-ID: <004401c297c7$7d62aca0$2b20d118@neo.rr.com> From: "David Rodemaker" > What if the analogy is more along the lines of the individual who made a > wildlife preserve? the big problem with this analogy, and unfortunately all such analogies seem to have a big problem, is that one who makes a wildlife preserve isn't responsible for the existence of predation and death, as a hypothetical deity would be, unless one posits a weak deity who isn't responsible for the way the unverse is run, in which case we find ourselves wondering who or what placed limitations on it. i say "unfortunately," because i've been reading alt.atheism since 1996, and reading apologetics for far longer, and just once i'd like to see a good argument, a sound analogy, a salient point, anything. i love this kind of debate, but have never felt challenged by a theistic argument, to my dismay. chris cunningham np: david sanborn "jesus" (yeah, yeah, irony :)) From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Fri Nov 29 08:50:11 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 10:50:11 -0600 Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. References: Message-ID: David Rodemaker wrote: >>> Are you responsible for the actions of your children once they >>> reach adulthood and attain free will? >>> This is a terrible assumption, in my opinion. Nobody attains free >>> will ("free will" itself is a canard, painted as an opposite to >>> "fate", when they're really the same damned thing); we're born with >>> the ability to make decisions, and as our mind develops, we can make >>> more complex decisions. >>> >>> "Adulthood" as it exists in most of Western civilization is pretty >>> broken, too; upon puberty, we should be helping kids to start making >>> 'adult' decisions, but instead we continue to treat them as >>> children. Then 18 rolls along and we suddenly let go. "You're on >>> your own!" >> >> I agree with you, but in the content of this discussion it's >> irrelevant. Point is, at some point your children attain >> independence of decision-making from you, and from that point on, >> you are no longer responsible for their actions. Society marks >> that as age 18, which is a really bad way to do it, but there >> aren't any obvious better ways. > > I would like to point out that this whole line of discussion seems to > be predicated on the fact that, Deity having created the universe and > everything in it, he/she/it has a parental responsibility. > > What if the analogy is more along the lines of the individual who > made a wildlife preserve? > Don't change the analogy (Please) a cosmic god creating us is plenty different than us boxing in a few animals and having nothing to do with their creation on a fundamental level. > Creatures live, die, kill, love, etc all along perfectly natural > lines. > right and starting a wildlife preserve would only be interfering with that order, ususally to protect a weaker species from predators. > Perhaps Deity doesn't love humans any more, or any less, than a deer. > There are certain parts of humanity which seem prone to violence, > perhaps there is a reason for this... > > Natural or Supernatural order y'know > > David Perhaps. From ajmcguigan at yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 08:58:46 2002 From: ajmcguigan at yahoo.com (Andrew McGuigan) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 08:58:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021129165846.75274.qmail@web12705.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dennis Higbee wrote: > Heh. I like that. But instead of "lapsed," I like > to say "Recovering > Catholic." I've always wondered if anyone has heard the word lapsed used to describe anyone but a "Catholic". :) Andrew From rsuitor at cjwrfs.net Fri Nov 29 09:11:17 2002 From: rsuitor at cjwrfs.net (Richard Suitor) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 12:11:17 -0500 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Nov 2002 02:26:38 -0400, "Alex Nixon" wrote: >Post Script: Christ David, you really despise religion in all of its forms. >I have one question: Where you beaten up as a child by a group consisting of >Christians, Buddhists, and Greco-Roman Pagans? 'Cause this really is a >whole lot of hate over something that's easy to ignore. hmmm -- it's not all that easy to ignore at various times and places, and a whole lot of wrong has been done in the name of God. DDB is not the only person to come to the conclusion that we would be a whole lot better off without religion, with considerable justification. Of course, a whole lot of wrong has been done in the name of that idea, too. So there is some virtue in considering the question, which I think is eventually answerable - i.e. not in the province of the Incredible Shrinking God - of whether or not people can so exist. The fact that some can, therefore all can, doesn't come close to being an acceptable answer. Richard From rsuitor at cjwrfs.net Fri Nov 29 09:17:00 2002 From: rsuitor at cjwrfs.net (Richard Suitor) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 12:17:00 -0500 Subject: The Great Debate....to DDB In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129031517.02d92110@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129014814.02d7db10@localhost> <20021129111508.30400.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20021129031517.02d92110@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Nov 2002 03:21:12 -0800, Steven Brust wrote: >Because, even though the other way of doing it (reply goes to the >list, not the person) is more convenient, I have been told that there are >hidden dangers involving potential hacking and suchlike to doing it >that. ahhh. I had forgotten (or not been told, but I suspect forgotten). > Do I know this is true? No, but I have *faith* in DDB, who told me, >and...I BELIEVE! > OK. So do I. >This is faith. yup From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Fri Nov 29 09:27:10 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 11:27:10 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute References: <200211261847.gAQIlTAB043480@realtime.exit.com> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127140051.00ab6aa0@dd-b.net> <3DE541E7.3020700@attbi.com> <3DE63F71.6030103@attbi.com> Message-ID: <3DE7A36E.6090305@attbi.com> Lydia said: > This makes no sense to me. Are you saying that if God didn't exist, you wouldn't want to know? You'd rather continue believing in something that wasn't true? If it were possible to prove God's non-existence, it would be possible to prove his existence, and may the best theory win. > Consider. I believe that God does indeed exist as the wellspring of love, the source of all goodness, the marvelous mind that created the universe in all its age and infinite complexity. I believe that God has sustained me through the trials in my life, that he is the home of the faithful and the comfort of those who mourn. He is every good thing that I have ever dreamed of and all those I have not yet thought to dream. A lot of y'all don't think so. But, imagine how my worldview would be pulverized if, again, impossibly, God were to be proven not to exist. Imagine, also, since I *do* believe God exists, how I must feel about the thought that someone wants to surgically remove my belief. If that happened, in my view, God would *still* exist, and I would be crippled in my response to him. Mia From rone at ennui.org Fri Nov 29 09:28:14 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 09:28:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Great Debate....to DDB In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129031517.02d92110@localhost> from Steven Brust at "Nov 29, 2002 03:21:12 am" Message-ID: <20021129172814.D4FF126E2C@boredom.ennui.org> Steven Brust writes: Why? Because, even though the other way of doing it (reply goes to the list, not the person) is more convenient, I have been told that there are hidden dangers involving potential hacking and suchlike to doing it that. Do I know this is true? No, but I have *faith* in DDB, who told me, and...I BELIEVE! This is faith. On this subject, I am NOT thinking. I am accepting an answer on faith. You trust his judgement. Whether this is faith can be debated. I happen to agree with you; it is a very mild form of faith. rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From rone at ennui.org Fri Nov 29 09:28:55 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 09:28:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Great Debate....to DDB In-Reply-To: <20021129140230.66736.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com> from Greg Rapawy at "Nov 29, 2002 06:02:30 am" Message-ID: <20021129172855.798A426E2D@boredom.ennui.org> Greg Rapawy writes: Well, it is always difficult to get inside another person's head. That's why i always carry my own trepanation kit. rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Fri Nov 29 09:32:43 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 11:32:43 -0600 Subject: Incredible Shrinking God? (Was Re: Damiano's Lute) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021126141008.02583540@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20021127162147.025ab2b0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20021127223605.0260cb70@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20021129005728.02dac4d0@localhost> Message-ID: <3DE7A4BB.6030909@attbi.com> Steve, OK, then I have not taken your last few steps, and neither has my entire religion (Christianity), nor have the Jewish and Muslim religions. Mia From unitcancellation at hotmail.com Fri Nov 29 09:23:18 2002 From: unitcancellation at hotmail.com (Alex Nixon) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 13:23:18 -0400 Subject: The Religion Debate Message-ID: My problem is not with his questioning of religion's place in our society. It is with the anger and resentment he expresses towards it. Given that religion isn't going away anytime soon, I feel it would be more productive to continue to question its importance, but do so with a lot less hostility. Alex ----Original Message Follows---- From: Richard Suitor Reply-To: rsuitor at cjwrfs.net To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: The Religion Debate Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 12:11:17 -0500 On Fri, 29 Nov 2002 02:26:38 -0400, "Alex Nixon" wrote: >Post Script: Christ David, you really despise religion in all of its forms. >I have one question: Where you beaten up as a child by a group consisting of >Christians, Buddhists, and Greco-Roman Pagans? 'Cause this really is a >whole lot of hate over something that's easy to ignore. hmmm -- it's not all that easy to ignore at various times and places, and a whole lot of wrong has been done in the name of God. DDB is not the only person to come to the conclusion that we would be a whole lot better off without religion, with considerable justification. Of course, a whole lot of wrong has been done in the name of that idea, too. So there is some virtue in considering the question, which I think is eventually answerable - i.e. not in the province of the Incredible Shrinking God - of whether or not people can so exist. The fact that some can, therefore all can, doesn't come close to being an acceptable answer. Richard _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From frank at exit.com Fri Nov 29 09:50:03 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 09:50:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200211291750.gATHo3mN007926@realtime.exit.com> Lydia Nickerson wrote: > The books don't exist by themselves, they were written by human > beings, often for somewhat venal reasons. Was it Jeremiah that was > written to justify the new line of kings and the changes in the > religious structure? Joshua and Judges were written to prove that > the Israelites were entitled to the land they'd stolen from the > Canaanites. The Gospels were written as propaganda to prove that > Christ was the Messiah, and tell several flat out whoppers to > accomplish that. Yes, and most often this stuff was written _after_ the fact, particularly the NT. Most of which was written, when, ca 100 AD? -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From frank at exit.com Fri Nov 29 09:57:21 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 09:57:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200211291757.gATHvLHE008028@realtime.exit.com> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > rone at ennui.org (definitely what) writes: > > Frank Mayhar writes: > > Your belief itself may not be a disorder, but the fact that you feel that > > without it you couldn't function is pretty unhealthy, IMNSHO. > > Given how important God is to those who do believe in him, your > > opinion is fairly impolite. If i were to lose my wife, say, i would > > have a hard time functioning. I'd get over it eventually, sure, but > > she is only human. To lose one's god should damn well be a major > > problem. Try to be a little more sensitive. Erm, yeah. I have this major disorder myself, called "clinical depression." It has been a bitch and a half to deal with, and I'll simply never "get over" it. I have plenty of sympathy for people with disorders, but I will emphatically not support their system of denial, no matter how much "good" it might appear to do in the short term. As I tried to say, it's not the belief, it's the reaction to a perceived threat to that belief that exposes the disorder. > Hey, recovering from a major psychological problem *is* a big deal, > and I try to be as supportive as I can of people doing so. Somebody > who had thought better of god, and was having trouble adjusting, > certainly falls into that sort of category, and I hope I'd be > supportive of them. And I, too, would be as supportive as I could be. I _know_ how difficult this stuff can be, having gone through it myself. > On the other hand, I don't want to be an enabler. Egg-zactly. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From seanp at ea.com Fri Nov 29 10:02:05 2002 From: seanp at ea.com (Penney, Sean) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 10:02:05 -0800 Subject: The Religion Debate Message-ID: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F5955D@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Lydia Nickerson wrote: > The books don't exist by themselves, they were written by human > beings, often for somewhat venal reasons. Was it Jeremiah that was > written to justify the new line of kings and the changes in the > religious structure? Joshua and Judges were written to prove that > the Israelites were entitled to the land they'd stolen from the > Canaanites. The Gospels were written as propaganda to prove that > Christ was the Messiah, and tell several flat out whoppers to > accomplish that. Frank Wrote: >Yes, and most often this stuff was written _after_ the fact, particularly >the NT. Most of which was written, when, ca 100 AD? Check out Mithraism. Here's a nice little summery I found on the web. http://members.aol.com/MercStG/ChriMithPage1.html From frank at exit.com Fri Nov 29 10:03:56 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 10:03:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200211291803.gATI3u6k008055@realtime.exit.com> Alex Nixon wrote: > Post Script: Christ David, you really despise religion in all of its forms. > I have one question: Where you beaten up as a child by a group consisting of > Christians, Buddhists, and Greco-Roman Pagans? 'Cause this really is a > whole lot of hate over something that's easy to ignore. Easy to ignore? I Don't Think So. When the President of the US (Bush the elder) vilifies a whole set of people for not sharing his belief in God, that's tough to ignore. When I'm confronted with the assumption of such belief every time I turn around, simply because 99.9% of Americans share it and assume, unthinkingly, that _everyone_ shares it, that's tough to ignore. When I am insulted as an individual and as a member of a minority for not believing in any kind of religion, _that's_ tough to ignore. And on top of all that, I live in Southern California, which may be one of the least religious areas of the US. "Easy to ignore?" Where have _you_ been living? -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Nov 29 10:06:38 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 13:06:38 -0500 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) Message-ID: <60761E79.24FF196F.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated 11/28/2002 10:20:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, Thomas Yan writes: > > Well, it won't necessarily convince anyone, but let's have > a little poll: > > 1. Have you accidentally sent a private reply instead of > posting to the list? No. > 1'. Have you accidentally posted to the list instead of > sending a?private reply? No, but I've only twice tried to send a private reply to a list message. > 2. Have you received an accidental private reply that was > meant to go to the list? Not that I know of, but I wouldn't have noticed unless I tried to reply. So far, I've received a total of one intentially private responses to my posts. > 3. When you get a message that was sent to you instead of > the list, do you feel obliged to query the sender to ask > him or her if it was meant to private instead of to the > list? Haven't found myself in that situation yet. > 4. Has the Reply-To behavior of this list caused you > confusion when posting to other mailing lists, perhaps even > causing you to accidentally send a private e-mail instead > of posting or vice versa? I don't participate in any other lists (at least not through email). > 5. How do you feel about the Reply-To behavior of this > list? Do you > ? + dislike it Trimming the From field and moving the list address from the CC field are annoyances. 6. Do you receive multiple copies of posts because the sended replied to all and didn't trim? Yes. 6'. Do you find this to be an annoying waste of bandwidth? Yes. 7. Do you occasionally have trouble telling legitimate posts >from spam? Yes. --KG From frank at exit.com Fri Nov 29 10:13:32 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 10:13:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021128234509.02cbd190@localhost> Message-ID: <200211291813.gATIDW03008143@realtime.exit.com> Steven Brust wrote: > Well, actually, if truth be told, I dream of life on a Mississipi River > steamboat. And I could do it, too. Anyone have a spare six million > dollars? Maybe God will give it to me. Along with that Mercedes you've always dreamed of? :-) -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From ajmcguigan at yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 10:21:43 2002 From: ajmcguigan at yahoo.com (Andrew McGuigan) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 10:21:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <200211291803.gATI3u6k008055@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <20021129182143.35946.qmail@web12708.mail.yahoo.com> > > Easy to ignore? I Don't Think So. When the > President of the US (Bush > the elder) vilifies a whole set of people for not > sharing his belief in > God, that's tough to ignore. Quote? From ambyrglow at softhome.net Fri Nov 29 09:50:22 2002 From: ambyrglow at softhome.net (Claire Rojstaczer) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 12:50:22 -0500 Subject: The Great Debate....to DDB In-Reply-To: <20021129172814.D4FF126E2C@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20021129172814.D4FF126E2C@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: >Steven Brust writes: > Why? Because, even though the other way of doing it (reply goes to the > list, not the person) is more convenient, I have been told that there are > hidden dangers involving potential hacking and suchlike to doing it > that. Do I know this is true? No, but I have *faith* in DDB, who told me, > and...I BELIEVE! > This is faith. > On this subject, I am NOT thinking. I am accepting an answer on faith. > I would argue that you're still thinking, and doing quite a lot of it. You're thinking about what you know about DDB, and whether he's a trustworthy person based on past examples of interaction (I don't think your trust in him can necessarily be described as faith if you do know him well enough to have a body of previous experience from which to draw patterns and conclusions). You're thinking about what you know of hackers and the Internet, and whether what's being described sounds plausible, regardless of whether or not you actually understand the details. You're thinking, in the end, about whether the trade-off between convenience and safety is worthwhile. The fact that you're not thinking about the details of mailing list management doesn't imply that your brain has entirely turned off on the subject, only that you're relying on secondary facts to come to a decision. I'll leave any possible parallels between this and religion to the religious folk. Being an atheist, I'd just screw them up. Claire From frank at exit.com Fri Nov 29 10:30:05 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 10:30:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <36A7FA9D35E90D40896801652C4AFAF601F5955D@eac-exch4.eac.ad.ea.com> Message-ID: <200211291830.gATIU5d7008202@realtime.exit.com> Penney, Sean wrote: > >Yes, and most often this stuff was written _after_ the fact, particularly > >the NT. Most of which was written, when, ca 100 AD? > Check out Mithraism. Here's a nice little summery I found on the web. http://members.aol.com/MercStG/ChriMithPage1.html *heh* Well, yeah. I should have added a caveat: "Except for the stuff that was lifted straight from Mithraism." -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From ajmcguigan at yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 10:30:37 2002 From: ajmcguigan at yahoo.com (Andrew McGuigan) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 10:30:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <200211291757.gATHvLHE008028@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <20021129183037.52871.qmail@web12707.mail.yahoo.com> --- Frank Mayhar wrote: I have plenty of sympathy for people with > disorders, but I will > emphatically not support their system of denial, no > matter how much "good" > it might appear to do in the short term. > Calling someone's beliefs a "system of denial" is pretty offensive in and of itself, imnsho. I would suggest you try to have less sympathy and more empathy. Perhaps you could think how you would react if someone reacted to your depression as denial of all the "good things" you have to be thankful for in your life. "Think positive", etc, etc. As a depressive myself, I would find that offensive at least. From frank at exit.com Fri Nov 29 10:36:18 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 10:36:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <20021129182143.35946.qmail@web12708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200211291836.gATIaIEB008236@realtime.exit.com> Andrew McGuigan wrote: > > > > Easy to ignore? I Don't Think So. When the > > President of the US (Bush > > the elder) vilifies a whole set of people for not > > sharing his belief in > > God, that's tough to ignore. > Quote? After a quick search on google, I found http://www.cyberdespot.com/jesustricks/bush.html I stand corrected; Bush was _Vice_ President at the time he said this (although he was running for President). The website says: The following exchange took place at the Chicago airport between Robert I. Sherman of American Atheist Press and George Bush Sr., on August 27, 1988. Sherman is a fully accredited reporter, and was present by invitation as a member of the press corps. The Republican presidential nominee was there to announce federal disaster relief for Illinois. The discussion turned to the presidential primary: RS (Rob Sherman): "What will you do to win the votes of Americans who are atheists?" GB (George Bush): "I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in God is important to me." RS: "Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?" GB: "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." RS: "Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation of state and church?" GB: "Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on atheists." UPI reported on May 8, 1989, that various atheist organizations were still angry over the remarks. The exchange appeared in the Boulder Daily Camera on Monday February 27, 1989. It can also be found in "Free Inquiry" magazine, Fall 1988 issue, Volume 8, Number 4, page 16. Happy? -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From casey at trinityhartford.org Fri Nov 29 10:39:53 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 13:39:53 -0500 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <20021129165846.75274.qmail@web12705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001c297d6$b855c720$a902a8c0@KCRINSP8200> I've known one or two self-described lapsed Jews. > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew McGuigan [mailto:ajmcguigan at yahoo.com] > Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 11:59 AM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Damiano's Lute > > > > --- Dennis Higbee wrote: > > > Heh. I like that. But instead of "lapsed," I like > > to say "Recovering > > Catholic." > > I've always wondered if anyone has heard the word > lapsed used to describe anyone but a "Catholic". :) > > Andrew > > From frank at exit.com Fri Nov 29 10:42:57 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 10:42:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <20021129183037.52871.qmail@web12707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200211291842.gATIgvcS008295@realtime.exit.com> Andrew McGuigan wrote: > --- Frank Mayhar wrote: > > I have plenty of sympathy for people with disorders, but I will > > emphatically not support their system of denial, no matter how much "good" > > it might appear to do in the short term. > Calling someone's beliefs a "system of denial" is > pretty offensive in and of itself, imnsho. I would > suggest you try to have less sympathy and more > empathy. Perhaps you could think how you would react > if someone reacted to your depression as denial of all > the "good things" you have to be thankful for in your > life. "Think positive", etc, etc. As a depressive > myself, I would find that offensive at least. Sigh. Well, if you would read what I wrote, you would note that I didn't say that the _beliefs_ were a system of denial, I referred to the reaction to a perceived _threat_ to those beliefs. The "system of denial" is the one that prevents the belief system from being threatened. The emotional reaction to such a threat is what exposes the disorder. The result is that the person with such a disorder clings even more tightly to the belief and denies (at a very deep, usually unconcious level) the evidence that might contradict it. This is true whether the belief relates to "I have a personal relationship with God," to "he hits me because he loves me," or to "I don't have a drinking problem." Among many, many others. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From casey at trinityhartford.org Fri Nov 29 10:46:02 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 13:46:02 -0500 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <200211291750.gATHo3mN007926@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <000101c297d7$93e4e690$a902a8c0@KCRINSP8200> Frank Mayhar wrote: > > Yes, and most often this stuff was written _after_ the fact, > particularly the NT. Most of which was written, when, ca 100 AD? Actually the latest of NT scripture was written ca 100-110 CE. The earliest were written down in the 40s and 50s. The first of the gospels was written down late in the seventh or early in the eighth decade, but existed in oral form long before. Casey From chrislee at neo.rr.com Fri Nov 29 10:56:14 2002 From: chrislee at neo.rr.com (chris cunningham) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 13:56:14 -0500 Subject: The Religion Debate References: <20021129182143.35946.qmail@web12708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002b01c297d8$fe289dc0$2b20d118@neo.rr.com> > > Easy to ignore? I Don't Think So. When the > > President of the US (Bush > > the elder) vilifies a whole set of people for not > > sharing his belief in > > God, that's tough to ignore. From: "Andrew McGuigan" > Quote? Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are Atheists? Bush: No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God. context: http://bennyhills.fortunecity.com/hardy/203/nonbeliever/page50.html From rick at 404.978.org Fri Nov 29 11:03:00 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 14:03:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Straw Poll about Reply-to In-Reply-To: References: <000a01c29769$5532ad60$a902a8c0@KCRINSP8200> Message-ID: <49555.209.245.101.9.1038596580.squirrel@404.978.org> Maybe I misread the thread... Did DDB give any inclination that the reply-to behavior of the list would change at all depending on this impromptu poll? His box, his rules, as far as I'm concerned. It's the same way for the numerous lists and sites hosted on my own server. I have good reasons for doing things the way I do, and as arrogant as it sounds, guests suffer at my leisure. Stubborn? Perhaps. But it's my server and bandwidth, and my very rare and precious spare time spent maintaining the same. I get to choose. Gold, rules, natch. For the record, I agree COMPLETELY with DDB's choice not to munge the reply-to headers. (Any mail client worth its salt has both a "reply-to-list" and "reply-to-sender" function.) Not that my opinion (or yours) should matter one bit. If the discussion is compelling enough, perhaps people will start using smarter mail clients, or (gasp!) learn/remember the way the list works. -Rick From ajmcguigan at yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 11:28:18 2002 From: ajmcguigan at yahoo.com (Andrew McGuigan) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 11:28:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <200211291836.gATIaIEB008236@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <20021129192818.13100.qmail@web12703.mail.yahoo.com> Yes, and I do have a problem with both Bush's remarks (although I'm surprised they were not picked up more widely) and the pledge including "under God". I believe in God, but I don't think it makes one un-patriotic to *not* believe in God, or to try to convince me that God doesn't exist. And although it's a misperception that the nation was founded by a group (Puritans) that believe in religious toleration (they simply wanted to escape persecution so they could be free to persecute others, e.g. Anne Hutchinson), I do believe that once the Bill of Rights was adopted (pushed by "radical" activists, not the "Founding Fathers") this tradition was begun, and has served us well as a nation. Andrew --- Frank Mayhar wrote: > Andrew McGuigan wrote: > > > > > > Easy to ignore? I Don't Think So. When the > > > President of the US (Bush > > > the elder) vilifies a whole set of people for > not > > > sharing his belief in > > > God, that's tough to ignore. > > Quote? > > After a quick search on google, I found > http://www.cyberdespot.com/jesustricks/bush.html > > I stand corrected; Bush was _Vice_ President at the > time he said this > (although he was running for President). The > website says: > > The following exchange took place at the Chicago > airport between > Robert I. Sherman of American Atheist Press and > George Bush Sr., > on August 27, 1988. Sherman is a fully accredited > reporter, and > was present by invitation as a member of the press > corps. The > Republican presidential nominee was there to > announce federal > disaster relief for Illinois. The discussion turned > to the > presidential primary: > > RS (Rob Sherman): "What will you do to win the > votes of Americans > who are atheists?" > > GB (George Bush): "I guess I'm pretty weak in the > atheist > community. Faith in God is important to me." > > RS: "Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and > patriotism > of Americans who are atheists?" > > GB: "No, I don't know that atheists should be > considered as > citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. > This is one > nation under God." > > RS: "Do you support as a sound constitutional > principle the > separation of state and church?" > > GB: "Yes, I support the separation of church and > state. I'm > just not very high on atheists." > > UPI reported on May 8, 1989, that various atheist > organizations > were still angry over the remarks. > > The exchange appeared in the Boulder Daily Camera > on Monday > February 27, 1989. It can also be found in "Free > Inquiry" > magazine, Fall 1988 issue, Volume 8, Number 4, page > 16. > > Happy? > -- > Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ > Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Nov 29 11:29:51 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 29 Nov 2002 13:29:51 -0600 Subject: Turkey In-Reply-To: <3DE658E9.3070309@attbi.com> References: <3DE658E9.3070309@attbi.com> Message-ID: Mia McDavid writes: > For me, the be-all and end-all is a free-range, fresh-killed (and I > don't mean "fresh" as in has had ice crystals in its gizzard for two > weeks) turkey, which I *finally* scored in the Twin Cities!!! My mother and sister used a fresh, free-range turkey this year, and it came out very well. Much more expensive, of course. I'm not at all sure it was worth it. > Oyster dressing has a very creditable source; I found it in Joy of > Cooking. Of course, anyone who doesn't like oysters shouldn't go > there... Long tradition, too. I've never tried it, being committed to the current standard stuffing. > Glenn was responsible for the forcemeat under the skin of the > breast--sausage, herbs, and seasonings. We feel this is particularly > important with free-range birds, which do not have fist-sized clumps > of fat in all the crevices. We didn't do anything like this, and it came out at least as moist as a broth-injected frozen commercial bird usually does. > I'll let y-all know how it turned out. Do please. > Happy Thanksgiving (or whatever you call it when there's nobody to > give thanks to! ;-> ) That's just what it's called. It's an eating holiday. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Nov 29 11:32:25 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 29 Nov 2002 13:32:25 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mark A Mandel writes: > [David Rodemaker?] > #> I can't think of medium-to-large 'sized' concept from Christianity > #> that I cannot find without difficulty in LOTR. > > [Baralier] > #And I can find Judaic concepts in Christian Myths. I can find Druidic > #concepts in Christian Myths. I can find Wiccan concepts in Christian > #Myths. I can find Buddhist concepts in Christian Myths. > # > #This does not make Christianity Pagan or Buddhist any more than > #finding Christian concepts in LotR makes it a "Christian" work. > > W.r.t. allegory, Tolkien said somewhere that there is a world of > difference between what a reader reads into a work and what the writer > wrote into it. Allegory, remember, is *by definition* intentional. So even if you can find all the layers of parallels that allegory gives rise to, if it's clearly not the author's intention, it's not an allegory. And Tolkien expressed his deep and abiding dislike for allegory pretty clearly. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From ajmcguigan at yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 11:32:25 2002 From: ajmcguigan at yahoo.com (Andrew McGuigan) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 11:32:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ol' Time religion (was Daminano's Lute) In-Reply-To: <200211291842.gATIgvcS008295@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <20021129193225.95072.qmail@web12705.mail.yahoo.com> --- Frank Mayhar wrote: . > > Sigh. Well, if you would read what I wrote, you > would note that I didn't > say that the _beliefs_ were a system of denial, I > referred to the reaction > to a perceived _threat_ to those beliefs. Well, if you would not assume that I didn't read what you wrote, but simply failed to understand your point, this would be a more pleasant discussion. The > "system of denial" is the one > that prevents the belief system from being > threatened. The emotional > reaction to such a threat is what exposes the > disorder. The result is that > the person with such a disorder clings even more > tightly to the belief and > denies (at a very deep, usually unconcious level) > the evidence that might > contradict it. Ok, so not everyone who believes in their religion or their God is crazy, just those who get upset when it's threatened? > > This is true whether the belief relates to "I have a > personal relationship > with God," to "he hits me because he loves me," or > to "I don't have a > drinking problem." Among many, many others. I *don't* have a drinking problem, I have a *stopping* problem. :) From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Nov 29 11:33:47 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 29 Nov 2002 13:33:47 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mark A Mandel writes: > Ooh! Ooh! I'm sorry, but Dr. Whom can't resist this pair: > > [attribution lost] > #>Yes, but the word was unbeleivable. > ** > That's unbelIEvable > -- > [Julie Alipaz] > # actually, inconcieveable > ** > And *that's* inconcEIveable > -- > > All together, now, class: > I before E, > except after C > or when pronounced "ay", > as in "neighbor" and "weigh". > > (Or any other time that it's followed by "gh", as in "height" > and in some other words that you just have to call exceptions, > like "seize".) I have seen a shorter and pithier version of this mnemonic, which seems to cover the case of English spelling quite well: I before E, Except when it isn't. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Nov 29 11:35:36 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 29 Nov 2002 13:35:36 -0600 Subject: new filk on FHYA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mark A Mandel writes: > I'm currently AFB (away from books) and I haven't reread FHYA in a > while, but I think this is close enough to accuracy for "folk song". > > At The Seventeenth Cycle's End > Mark A. Mandel Copr. 2002 > Ttto In Good Old Colony Times, trad. > Based on Steven Brust's _Five Hundred Years After_ > > (Note: "Jhereg" is pronounced "zhuh-REG", where "zh" is the sound of "s" > in "pleasure", and accented on the second syllable, roughly rhyming with > "break a leg" as said to an actor or an enforcer.) > > At the Seventeenth Cycle's end > With the Phoenix fated to fail > A Jhereg, a Tiassa, and a Dragon proud > Were part of a tragic tale > Part of a tragic tale > A Jhereg, a Tiassa, and a Dragon proud > Were part of a tragic tale > > The Jhereg was betrayed by his House > The Tiassa by the great > And the Dragon was betrayed by his soaring pride > And the twisted workings of fate > [repeat as above] > > The Jhereg got his revenge > The Tiassa his reward > And the Dragon was dissolved in swirling Chaos > When he tried to take the Orb > > Now, nobody's seen the Jhereg > The Tiassa can still draw blood > And the Dragon's ghost haunts the Lesser Sea of Chaos > Where Dragaera City once stood That's very nice indeed. A couple of lines need to be force-fit for emphasis, but at least they're *consistent* about it. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Nov 29 11:38:59 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 29 Nov 2002 13:38:59 -0600 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <15843.46891.246035.618358@gw.dd-b.net> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127153459.00a5b510@dd-b.net> Message-ID: Thomas Yan writes: > David Dyer-Bennet clarified: > > It's the word "immovable" that I'm taking issue with. > > Well, it won't necessarily convince anyone, but let's have a little poll: > > 1. Have you accidentally sent a private reply instead of posting to > the list? Yes, once or twice. > 1'. Have you accidentally posted to the list instead of sending a > private reply? Not on lists configured this way. I have done so on other sorts of lists, and I see examples pretty much every week of people doing so in other sorts of lists. > 2. Have you received an accidental private reply that was meant to go > to the list? Yes. > 3. When you get a message that was sent to you instead of the list, do > you feel obliged to query the sender to ask him or her if it was > meant to private instead of to the list? No. > 4. Has the Reply-To behavior of this list caused you confusion when > posting to other mailing lists, perhaps even causing you to > accidentally send a private e-mail instead of posting or vice > versa? Heh. You're trying to argue that reply-munging is now the default. That won't, of course, make it right. > 5. How do you feel about the Reply-To behavior of this list? > Do you > + love it > + like it > + don't much care > + dislike it > + hate it > + hate it, Hate It, HATE IT! > > I'll post my answers in a follow-up. You left out several key questions. 6. Do you find it difficult to reply to the individual poster in a list where reply-munging is done? 7. Have you ever heard of anybody being seriously embarrassed, or even harmed (fired, say), for sending a private reply instead of a public reply? 8. Have you ever heard of anybody being seriously embarrassed, or even harmed (fired, say), for sending a public reply instead of a private reply? -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Nov 29 11:40:40 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 29 Nov 2002 13:40:40 -0600 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) In-Reply-To: <3DE6DF13.2010108@attbi.com> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <15843.46891.246035.618358@gw.dd-b.net> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127153459.00a5b510@dd-b.net> <3DE6DF13.2010108@attbi.com> Message-ID: Mia McDavid writes: > My opinion? You bet. > > Having spent *a lot* of time carefully snipping the individual's name > and changing the cc: to to: for the dragaera line (so as not to clog > people's inbox with double-posting), and having *frequently*, when > traffic is less heavy, mistakenly sent a private msg when I meant to > send a public one, I (e) HATE the way this list operates. > > Furthermore, and this is beyond simple inconvenience, I have no way of > knowing, when I have a msg from a stranger in my in-box, if it's from > this list (or another like it), or of it's an obnoxious and possibly > dangerous piece of spam. The other kind of list always tells you if a > msg is *from* the list in the header. Yes, by now I know lots of > people on this list, but there's always the newbie and the infrequent > poster. I would feel much more secure if all the msg headers said > Dragaera to start off with. This is bizarre; I don't understand how that can happen. When I'm looking at a message sent to the list, the list name is present in the To: or cc: header. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Nov 29 11:42:30 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 29 Nov 2002 13:42:30 -0600 Subject: Straw Poll about Reply-to In-Reply-To: <49555.209.245.101.9.1038596580.squirrel@404.978.org> References: <000a01c29769$5532ad60$a902a8c0@KCRINSP8200> <49555.209.245.101.9.1038596580.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: "Rick Castello" writes: > Maybe I misread the thread... > > Did DDB give any inclination that the reply-to behavior of the > list would change at all depending on this impromptu poll? No. > His box, his rules, as far as I'm concerned. Actually, the official (but not terribly visible) list owner's opinion (that'd be Felix) could cause this to change. > For the record, I agree COMPLETELY with DDB's choice not to > munge the reply-to headers. (Any mail client worth its salt > has both a "reply-to-list" and "reply-to-sender" function.) > > Not that my opinion (or yours) should matter one bit. > > If the discussion is compelling enough, perhaps people will > start using smarter mail clients, or (gasp!) learn/remember > the way the list works. Thanks. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Nov 29 11:47:09 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 29 Nov 2002 13:47:09 -0600 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20021129090349.02ab7360@pop.softhome.net> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <15843.46891.246035.618358@gw.dd-b.net> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127153459.00a5b510@dd-b.net> <5.1.0.14.1.20021129090349.02ab7360@pop.softhome.net> Message-ID: Tucker writes: > I'm a fan, but Eudora allows me to "Reply to all" and delete the > sender's address so that it goes to the list. I've not seen a > "Reply-to-list" list where "Reply to all" will catch both the sender > and the list addresses. > > (Of course, having said that, I nearly sent this off-list.) It's been suggested that mail clients implement "reply to sender" as yet another workaround. However, the easiest solution is simply to implement the RFC defining message headers giving posting, subscribe, and unsubscribe addresses. I know Pegasus mail imlements that one, for example. Then you can click on a button to do the precise thing you want. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From ajmcguigan at yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 11:50:04 2002 From: ajmcguigan at yahoo.com (Andrew McGuigan) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 11:50:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021129195004.64150.qmail@web12701.mail.yahoo.com> I use Yahoo's web client at work to reply to this list (don't tell my boss ;) ), and it doesn't show (and is not configurable as far as I can tell) the "to" field, just the "from" field, which is the individual. However, I've worked around this with a filter that drops messages sent to "dragaera at dragaera.info" into a separate folder. Unfortunately, some of us (even those of us who are the IT manager) don't have the luxury of POP access to our personal e-mail at work. :) Andrew --- David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Mia McDavid writes: > > > My opinion? You bet. > > > > Having spent *a lot* of time carefully snipping > the individual's name > > and changing the cc: to to: for the dragaera line > (so as not to clog > > people's inbox with double-posting), and having > *frequently*, when > > traffic is less heavy, mistakenly sent a private > msg when I meant to > > send a public one, I (e) HATE the way this list > operates. > > > > Furthermore, and this is beyond simple > inconvenience, I have no way of > > knowing, when I have a msg from a stranger in my > in-box, if it's from > > this list (or another like it), or of it's an > obnoxious and possibly > > dangerous piece of spam. The other kind of list > always tells you if a > > msg is *from* the list in the header. Yes, by now > I know lots of > > people on this list, but there's always the newbie > and the infrequent > > poster. I would feel much more secure if all the > msg headers said > > Dragaera to start off with. > > This is bizarre; I don't understand how that can > happen. When I'm > looking at a message sent to the list, the list name > is present in the > To: or cc: header. > -- > David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / > http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ > John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site > http://john.dyer-bennet.net > Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Nov 29 11:54:17 2002 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 29 Nov 2002 13:54:17 -0600 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Gametech" writes: > David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > For me the real bottom-line argument is that religion, any religion, > > is *false*. Basing your life on a falsehood is bad. > > > > Err... Hmm I can't differentiate that statement from someone saying: > > > > For me the real bottom-line argument is that atheism, or any other religion > than the one I believe in, is *false*. > > Basing your life on a falsehood is bad. Thanks for walking into this one. It's simple. We can compare evidence between the various religions, of course. > I agree and disagree on falsehoods, if believing something false helps you > do something good or it has a good outcome it's falseness becomes only > relevant if you care about being right. If you believe something false and > it hurts you then it is bad. Like: You trip and fall and you try to catch > yourself on a pole which you believe to be firmly planted and capable of > supporting you, you are wrong and still fall flat on your face along with > the pole. Or You trip and fall believing you are going to fall flat on your > face and someone catches you, you were wrong and didn't expect it yet is > doesn't matter that your judgment was in error because the only relevance is > in being right. This is on such a different scale that it doesn't compare. Yes, it's less serious if you have a false belief about that pole, and the worst outcome is falling on your face. That's *still* bad, just not too serious. And if that pole is part of the foundation system of a building you're designing, the consequences of being wrong go up considerably. So I think we've agreed that different things are of different levels of importance. (I hope this doesn't surprise anybody!). It seems to me that beliefs about the moral structure of the universe are inherently of the *highest* importance. > Just to remind the point I don't follow any religion, and haven't found one > I believe in however every religion I've been subject to has had pieces of > beliefs I do follow (all are undisputable positive ideals, not anything > based in I can't prove it land), when you so reverently say religion is bad > I simply know that's not true because it has vast potential to anyone who > isn't a moron, just like anything else. I think there is error in your > thinking that just because most or all religions (I don't know for sure so > I'm unwilling to fully generalize) have at least one or more falsehoods in > them that people following them automatically believe. Religion is subject > to the brain the same way any other idea is we have the right and the > ability to refuse ideas we find falseness in. And we have the right to > renounce the religion for the falsehood at any point we distinguish it as > harming us or existing. I did when it happened to me, born into a religion > saw inconsistencies, even what I considered proof of the fallacy. But I've > walked away with every positive piece of the teaching. I'd still follow if > my ethics system based outside of religion didn't collide with the idea of > representing something (the religion) by being a follower and not fully > believing. The trouble with religion as a source of ethical guidelines is that it's based on *nothing*. It all comes down to "Because the great sky-father said so", or "because it says so in the book" or whatever. This is of no use whatsoever -- it's indistinguishable from "Because Stalin said so" or "Because dd-b said so". Not a good basis for an ethical system! > For me the real bottom-line argument is that ideas, any idea is subject to > being false. It's ok to believe in ideas even if some turn out to be false. > Saying all religons are false is like to me saying all ideas are false. It > seems so generalistic. Religion, by definition, asserts the existence of a non-material world. There's no evidence for such a thing being real. -- David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net / http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Fri Nov 29 11:55:50 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 11:55:50 -0800 Subject: Domino's Lute In-Reply-To: <005301c2970b$906b9800$2b20d118@neo.rr.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021128000505.0275a2d0@localhost> <20021128172705.GA24049@ofb.net> <005301c2970b$906b9800$2b20d118@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: <20021129195550.GA15705@ofb.net> On Thu, Nov 28, 2002 at 01:25:43PM -0500, chris cunningham wrote: > > powers where Buddhism has usually been practised, but people over here > > probably usually don't think in terms of hells and demons and flying Wu > > Don masters... > > but they do believe in reincarnation? what then does buddhism posit, if Well, I haven't known California Buddhists well enough to know (not saying all American Buddhists are in California, just using that as a label for a trend.) But from what I've seen of Buddhism it makes no sense without reincarnation. You assume suffering is really bad, and that if you die you'll just get a new life, and more suffering, so suicide isn't an option. So you strive for Nirvana instead. Of course, a lot of "California Buddhists" might just call themselves Buddhist, while trying out the meditation and having ideas of achieving oneness with the universe, without worrying about the original stuff. But is this Buddhism, or religious chow mein? > anything, as the origin of this supernatural process of transplantation of > memories and/or personality? or do they bail on first cause arguments, too? Don't know about Buddhism precisely, in any variety, but I think Hinduism, >from which it came after all, believes in a cyclical universe which has always been here. Well, the whole shebang has always been here; a paticular universe gets born and dies, that's the cyclical part. On a time scale of tens or hundreds of thousands of years, I think; puts the 6000 years of Judeo-Christianity to shame. Course, you might think of that as hundreds of thousands of years of the same old same old. *shudder* -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Fri Nov 29 12:04:52 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 12:04:52 -0800 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: References: <00b901c296d0$56a1bf40$2b20d118@neo.rr.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20021128050520.02989150@localhost> <3DE6BD13.7020901@networkharmoni.com.au> <5.1.0.14.0.20021128234509.02cbd190@localhost> Message-ID: <20021129200452.GB15705@ofb.net> On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 11:46:02AM -0500, Richard Suitor wrote: > I detect a certain bitterness (in several) toward SHB because of the > evils that have been committed in their name. Or toward the belief in If they're superhuman beings why don't they step in and stop the evils, at least the ones committed in their name? If they don't care about us enough to step in, why should we care about them? If they don't step in, but do care about us caring about them, and will punish us for not caring enough, then yeah, bitterness is called for... -xx- Damien X-) From frank at exit.com Fri Nov 29 12:08:30 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 12:08:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Turkey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200211292008.gATK8UfZ009010@realtime.exit.com> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Mia McDavid writes: > > Happy Thanksgiving (or whatever you call it when there's nobody to > > give thanks to! ;-> ) > That's just what it's called. It's an eating holiday. Sort of the modern replacement for the pagan harvest festival holiday. (In the same way that Christmas replaces Saturnalia and other pagan winter solstice holidays and Easter replaces the vernal equinox/spring fertility festival holidays [in the US, right down to the fecund Easter Bunny and those inimitable symbols of fertility, eggs :-)].) -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From ajmcguigan at yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 12:11:19 2002 From: ajmcguigan at yahoo.com (Andrew McGuigan) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 12:11:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <20021129200452.GB15705@ofb.net> Message-ID: <20021129201119.65443.qmail@web12707.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Sullivan wrote: > > If they're superhuman beings why don't they step in > and stop the evils, at > least the ones committed in their name? Because they prize free will above stopping evil. > > If they don't care about us enough to step in, why > should we care about them? > Why would they want a world of puppets? > If they don't step in, but do care about us caring > about them, and will punish > us for not caring enough, then yeah, bitterness is > called for... Well, yeah, a punishing God sucks. Luckily, mine is not...:) Andrew From frank at exit.com Fri Nov 29 12:12:52 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 12:12:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ol' Time religion (was Daminano's Lute) In-Reply-To: <20021129193225.95072.qmail@web12705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200211292012.gATKCqcH009032@realtime.exit.com> Andrew McGuigan wrote: > --- Frank Mayhar wrote: > Well, if you would not assume that I didn't read what > you wrote, but simply failed to understand your point, > this would be a more pleasant discussion. You're right. I apologize. I thought I was clear enough, but apparently your mileage differs. > Ok, so not everyone who believes in their religion or > their God is crazy, just those who get upset when it's > threatened? I know a number of well-adjusted religious folk who are not threatened at all by alternative viewpoints, or even by my assertion that they're nuts for believing in such claptrap. Someone who reacts very emotionally, though, has something more going on than just the belief itself. There are those annoying Underlying Issues. > I *don't* have a drinking problem, I have a *stopping* problem. :) Hey, admitting it is the first step to getting over it. :-) (*heh* "Christians Anonymous," anyone? :-) -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Fri Nov 29 12:13:19 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 12:13:19 -0800 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <000001c297ab$3d840820$a902a8c0@KCRINSP8200> References: <20021129110145.76256.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> <000001c297ab$3d840820$a902a8c0@KCRINSP8200> Message-ID: <20021129201319.GC15705@ofb.net> On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 08:28:36AM -0500, Casey Rousseau wrote: > The most devout atheists I know were taught by their parents to be > atheists. Not sure what you mean by 'devout'. The most aggressive atheists _I_ know are lapsed Roman Catholics or Orthodox. The ones raised in a godless environment tend to be more live-and-let-live. This can change if some religious person stops letting them live, but that's only natural. -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Fri Nov 29 12:14:01 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 12:14:01 -0800 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20021129201401.GD15705@ofb.net> On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 12:26:36AM -0600, Gametech wrote: > I don't think faith is a bad thing, beliving that when you purchase > something from someone on ebay that they will send you the item requires > faith, faith in that person for being honest. Sure you can make the most I call that 'trust', not 'faith'. -xx- Damien X-) From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Nov 29 12:23:31 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 15:23:31 -0500 Subject: Straw Poll about Reply-to Message-ID: <539461F1.0B9616BE.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated 11/29/2002 2:03:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Rick Castello" writes: > (Any mail client worth its salt has both a "reply-to-list" > and "reply-to-sender" function.) Some of us aren't priveledged enough to be even *able* to use email clients of any sort. --KG From ajmcguigan at yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 12:23:43 2002 From: ajmcguigan at yahoo.com (Andrew McGuigan) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 12:23:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <20021129201401.GD15705@ofb.net> Message-ID: <20021129202343.67916.qmail@web12701.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Sullivan wrote: > > I call that 'trust', not 'faith'. > > -xx- Damien X-) same meaning, if not connotation... From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Fri Nov 29 12:35:24 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 14:35:24 -0600 Subject: The Religion Debate References: <200211291750.gATHo3mN007926@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <3DE7CF8C.3000703@attbi.com> Lydia Nickerson wrote: > The books don't exist by themselves, they were written by human > beings, often for somewhat venal reasons. Was it Jeremiah that was > written to justify the new line of kings and the changes in the > religious structure? Joshua and Judges were written to prove that > the Israelites were entitled to the land they'd stolen from the > Canaanites. Further, they were written at different times with different underlying agendas. Some of the OT stuff has God doing really horrid things--it's really hard to stomach. Part of that, though was that it was written as a sort of extreme monotheistic reaction against the polytheistic world: There is only one God, God is all-powerful, everything that happens is because of God, so if something ghastly happened, God did it. Then again, God wants us to worship him only. By letting some of our enemies live, we permitted some of our group to become tainted by other beliefs. Therefore we should (or, writing in retrospect, should have) ruthlessly slaughtered *all* of our enemies. Very much the tail wagging the dog, but that's the agenda behind those commands. Biblical scholarship can say a lot, if one choses to listen, about where in history the various books of the bible came from, how they changed over time until the canon was established, and the 'why' of their points of view. In the Gospels, a fair amount of what Jesus "said" was put in after the fact by people who either thought the parables needed more explanation, or wanted to advance a particular agenda, or whathaveyou. Probably the most authentic books we have are some of the letters of Paul. They were preserved until the community decided that Jesus wasn't coming back any time now, and that therefore we needed a written record of what had happened and what he believed. Some of them are widely accepted as authentic writings of Paul. The four gospels have been redacted from various sources; and, of course, a lot of gospels were not included in the canon. God does not change, but our attempts to understand him do. The bible reflects those changes in our understanding and our (often inadequate) attempts to express that understanding. (unless you're a fundamentalist. IMNSHO, a person who deliberately rejects everything we have learned with the use of our God-given reason and senses insults her creator, but that's a whole other discussion.) Mia From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Nov 29 12:35:30 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 15:35:30 -0500 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" Message-ID: <6141F803.5874B531.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated 11/29/2002 2:38:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, David Dyer-Bennet writes: > You left out several key questions. > > 6. ?Do you find it difficult to reply to the individual > poster in a?list where reply-munging is done? There have only been two times on this list when I wanted to send a private response, and both times it was specifically requested by the poster (ie had this been Usenet, the poster should have set Followups to Poster). > 7. Have you ever heard of anybody being seriously > embarrassed, or?even harmed (fired, say), for sending a > private reply instead of a?public reply? It sure seems embassassing when people's posts are forwarded to list because they accidently sent them privately. > 8. Have you ever heard of anybody being seriously > embarrassed, or?even harmed (fired, say), for sending a > public reply instead of a?private reply? No, at least not first or second hand. Of course, the only mailing lists I participate on are publically viewable SF discussions. --KG From rick at 404.978.org Fri Nov 29 12:39:56 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 15:39:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Straw Poll about Reply-to In-Reply-To: <539461F1.0B9616BE.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <539461F1.0B9616BE.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <49901.209.245.99.167.1038602396.squirrel@404.978.org> > In a message dated 11/29/2002 2:03:00 PM Eastern Standard > Time, "Rick Castello" writes: > >> (Any mail client worth its salt has both a "reply-to-list" >> and "reply-to-sender" function.) > > Some of us aren't priveledged enough to be even *able* to > use email clients of any sort. Webmail counts as an email client, and is no excuse. :) I'm the project lead for the SquirrelMail webmail project, and we've specifically designed it to work properly for mailing lists, providing links for "reply to sender", "reply to list", and even links to get list info and unsubscribe from properly configured (according to RFCs) mailing lists... all from a single message sent to that list. http://squirrelmail.org/ *grin* -Rick From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Fri Nov 29 12:45:07 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 14:45:07 -0600 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) References: <60761E79.24FF196F.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <3DE7D1D3.9050305@attbi.com> I never answered the poll question-by-question: > > Well, it won't necessarily convince anyone, but let's have > a little poll: > > 1. Have you accidentally sent a private reply instead of > posting to the list? Yes, because on the lists where (usually) I converse the most, 'reply' goes to the list. > 1'. Have you accidentally posted to the list instead of > sending a private reply? No. > 2. Have you received an accidental private reply that was > meant to go to the list? Yes, and then the person had to go around explaining that she had sent private replies when she meant them to be public. > 3. When you get a message that was sent to you instead of > the list, do you feel obliged to query the sender to ask > him or her if it was meant to private instead of to the > list? Yes, because the msgs did seem (and in fact were) intended for general consumption. > 4. Has the Reply-To behavior of this list caused you > confusion when posting to other mailing lists, perhaps even > causing you to accidentally send a private e-mail instead > of posting or vice versa? No. > 5. How do you feel about the Reply-To behavior of this > list? Do you Hate it. 6. Do you receive multiple copies of posts because the sended replied to all and didn't trim? Yes. 6'. Do you find this to be an annoying waste of bandwidth? Yes. 7. Do you occasionally have trouble telling legitimate posts >from spam? Yes. --KG From rick at 404.978.org Fri Nov 29 12:44:33 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 15:44:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Lapsed In-Reply-To: <000001c297d6$b855c720$a902a8c0@KCRINSP8200> References: <20021129165846.75274.qmail@web12705.mail.yahoo.com> <000001c297d6$b855c720$a902a8c0@KCRINSP8200> Message-ID: <49924.209.245.99.167.1038602673.squirrel@404.978.org> Letting one's membership lapse... heard it quite a bit. -Rick Casey Rousseau said: > I've known one or two self-described lapsed Jews. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Andrew McGuigan [mailto:ajmcguigan at yahoo.com] >> Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 11:59 AM >> To: dragaera at dragaera.info >> Subject: Re: Damiano's Lute >> >> >> >> --- Dennis Higbee wrote: >> >> > Heh. I like that. But instead of "lapsed," I like >> > to say "Recovering >> > Catholic." >> >> I've always wondered if anyone has heard the word >> lapsed used to describe anyone but a "Catholic". :) >> >> Andrew >> >> From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Fri Nov 29 12:46:28 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 14:46:28 -0600 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) References: <60761E79.24FF196F.00048EA6@aol.com> <3DE7D1D3.9050305@attbi.com> Message-ID: <3DE7D224.4010207@attbi.com> Oooopppsss. The msg from me should have been signed 'Mia'. I ripped off KG's quoting to put in my own answers and forgot to change their sig. Mia From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Fri Nov 29 12:50:37 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 14:50:37 -0600 Subject: Turkey References: <3DE658E9.3070309@attbi.com> Message-ID: <3DE7D31D.5040805@attbi.com> Actually, a 19-lb bird, plus two sets of feet, was under $40. I thought that was quite reasonable. YMMV. The bird was lovely. I don't know if the sausage under the skin made it any more moist. It may only be an excuse to have two dressings. The oyster dressing missed--I need to research the proper seasonings for oysters, and the cornbread was too sweet. I might keep working on it, though. Mia From ajmcguigan at yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 12:50:37 2002 From: ajmcguigan at yahoo.com (Andrew McGuigan) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 12:50:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Lapsed In-Reply-To: <49924.209.245.99.167.1038602673.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: <20021129205037.22502.qmail@web12703.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rick Castello wrote: > > Letting one's membership lapse... heard it > quite a bit. > > -Rick Yes, but you're not a "lapsed gym member." :) From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Fri Nov 29 13:02:49 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 15:02:49 -0600 Subject: The Religion Debate References: <200211291803.gATI3u6k008055@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: Frank Mayhar wrote: > Alex Nixon wrote: >> Post Script: Christ David, you really despise religion in all of its >> forms. I have one question: Where you beaten up as a child by a >> group consisting of Christians, Buddhists, and Greco-Roman Pagans? >> 'Cause this really is a whole lot of hate over something that's easy >> to ignore. > > Easy to ignore? I Don't Think So. When the President of the US (Bush > the elder) vilifies a whole set of people for not sharing his belief > in God, that's tough to ignore. When I'm confronted with the > assumption of such belief every time I turn around, simply because > 99.9% of Americans share it and assume, unthinkingly, that _everyone_ No where near 99.9% of 'Americans' believe any one thing (religion in specific!), if we did we'd have at least one point to cooperate upon. > shares it, that's tough to ignore. When I am insulted as an > individual and as a member of a minority for not believing in any > kind of religion, _that's_ tough to ignore. And on top of all that, > I live in Southern California, which may be one of the least > religious areas of the US. > > "Easy to ignore?" Where have _you_ been living? From rone at ennui.org Fri Nov 29 13:04:29 2002 From: rone at ennui.org (definitely what) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 13:04:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: from David Dyer-Bennet at "Nov 29, 2002 01:54:17 pm" Message-ID: <20021129210429.908BD26E37@boredom.ennui.org> David Dyer-Bennet writes: Religion, by definition, asserts the existence of a non-material world. There's no evidence for such a thing being real. Of course it isn't real. Otherwise, it wouldn't be non-material. This is the main problem with trying to prove the existence or non-existence of God; he isn't "real" in a physical sense. And yet, the fact that people believe in God proves he does exist, just as the people who do not believe in God prove that he doesn't. It's very quantum. rone -- New from the makers of Li'l Swimmers: Li'l Eaters. Edible underwear that looks just like Mommy's and Daddy's! - Kibo From unitcancellation at hotmail.com Fri Nov 29 13:08:31 2002 From: unitcancellation at hotmail.com (Alex Nixon) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 17:08:31 -0400 Subject: The Religion Debate Message-ID: Canada, actually. But that's not the point. I'm saying that there's enough of a place in society for Atheism that it's pretty foolish to be angry about it. Maybe I didn't make myself clear: I consider questioning to be great and productive, but anger and hate over religion is neither. Alex ----Original Message Follows---- From: Frank Mayhar "Easy to ignore?" Where have _you_ been living? _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From rick at 404.978.org Fri Nov 29 13:08:17 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 16:08:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: Lapsed In-Reply-To: <20021129205037.22502.qmail@web12703.mail.yahoo.com> References: <49924.209.245.99.167.1038602673.squirrel@404.978.org> <20021129205037.22502.qmail@web12703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49993.209.245.99.167.1038604097.squirrel@404.978.org> Andrew McGuigan said: > > --- Rick Castello wrote: >> >> Letting one's membership lapse... heard it >> quite a bit. >> >> -Rick > > Yes, but you're not a "lapsed gym member." :) Actually, being the owner/manager of a retail business, and prime retail season having just kicked off today, I am exactly that. ;) -Rick From pgranzeau at cox.net Fri Nov 29 13:24:06 2002 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 16:24:06 -0500 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20021129090349.02ab7360@pop.softhome.net> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <15843.46891.246035.618358@gw.dd-b.net> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127153459.00a5b510@dd-b.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20021129162331.01da6330@pop.east.cox.net> At 09:08 11/29/2002 -0500, Tucker wrote: >>5. How do you feel about the Reply-To behavior of this list? >> Do you >> + like it > >I'm a fan, but Eudora allows me to "Reply to all" and delete the sender's >address so that it goes to the list. I've not seen a "Reply-to-list" list >where "Reply to all" will catch both the sender and the list addresses. > >(Of course, having said that, I nearly sent this off-list.) I thought he WANTED the replies off-list? -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Fri Nov 29 13:33:36 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 15:33:36 -0600 Subject: The Religion Debate References: Message-ID: David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > "Gametech" writes: > >> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > >>> For me the real bottom-line argument is that religion, any religion, >>> is *false*. Basing your life on a falsehood is bad. >>> >> >> Err... Hmm I can't differentiate that statement from someone saying: >> >> >> >> For me the real bottom-line argument is that atheism, or any other >> religion than the one I believe in, is *false*. >> >> Basing your life on a falsehood is bad. > > Thanks for walking into this one. > > It's simple. We can compare evidence between the various religions, > of course. > >> I agree and disagree on falsehoods, if believing something false >> helps you do something good or it has a good outcome it's falseness >> becomes only relevant if you care about being right. If you believe >> something false and it hurts you then it is bad. Like: You trip and >> fall and you try to catch yourself on a pole which you believe to be >> firmly planted and capable of supporting you, you are wrong and >> still fall flat on your face along with the pole. Or You trip and >> fall believing you are going to fall flat on your face and someone >> catches you, you were wrong and didn't expect it yet is doesn't >> matter that your judgment was in error because the only relevance is >> in being right. > > This is on such a different scale that it doesn't compare. Yes, it's > less serious if you have a false belief about that pole, and the worst > outcome is falling on your face. That's *still* bad, just not too > serious. > > And if that pole is part of the foundation system of a building you're > designing, the consequences of being wrong go up considerably. > > So I think we've agreed that different things are of different levels > of importance. (I hope this doesn't surprise anybody!). It seems to > me that beliefs about the moral structure of the universe are > inherently of the *highest* importance. > >> Just to remind the point I don't follow any religion, and haven't >> found one I believe in however every religion I've been subject to >> has had pieces of beliefs I do follow (all are undisputable positive >> ideals, not anything based in I can't prove it land), when you so >> reverently say religion is bad I simply know that's not true because >> it has vast potential to anyone who isn't a moron, just like >> anything else. I think there is error in your thinking that just >> because most or all religions (I don't know for sure so I'm >> unwilling to fully generalize) have at least one or more falsehoods >> in them that people following them automatically believe. Religion >> is subject to the brain the same way any other idea is we have the >> right and the ability to refuse ideas we find falseness in. And we >> have the right to renounce the religion for the falsehood at any >> point we distinguish it as harming us or existing. I did when it >> happened to me, born into a religion saw inconsistencies, even what >> I considered proof of the fallacy. But I've walked away with every >> positive piece of the teaching. I'd still follow if my ethics system >> based outside of religion didn't collide with the idea of >> representing something (the religion) by being a follower and not >> fully believing. > > The trouble with religion as a source of ethical guidelines is that > it's based on *nothing*. It all comes down to "Because the great > sky-father said so", or "because it says so in the book" or whatever. > This is of no use whatsoever -- it's indistinguishable from "Because > Stalin said so" or "Because dd-b said so". Not a good basis for an > ethical system! > >> For me the real bottom-line argument is that ideas, any idea is >> subject to being false. It's ok to believe in ideas even if some >> turn out to be false. Saying all religons are false is like to me >> saying all ideas are false. It seems so generalistic. > > Religion, by definition, asserts the existence of a non-material > world. There's no evidence for such a thing being real. Religions : 1 aBelief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. bA personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. 2 The life or condition of a person in a religious order. 3 A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. 4 A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. I'd use example 4 to best describe the broad scope of religions, which IN *no* way asserts the existence of a non-material world and I'd do so because some religions do not assert the supernatural, for benefit below is zeal and conscientious. zeal n. Enthusiastic devotion to a cause, ideal, or goal and tireless diligence in its furtherance. See Synonyms at passion conscientious adj. 1. Guided by or in accordance with the dictates of conscience; principled: a conscientious decision to speak out about injustice. 2. Thorough and assiduous: a conscientious worker; a conscientious effort to comply with the regulations. I'd say that the Atheists whom are part of an atheist organization are by that very nature religious. From singram at videotron.ca Fri Nov 29 13:41:19 2002 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 16:41:19 -0500 Subject: new filk on FHYA References: Message-ID: <080701c297f0$0df524f0$17ecca18@ingram> You know, that kinda-sorta fits with the Gilligan's Island theme music... -Scott > I'm currently AFB (away from books) and I haven't reread FHYA in a > while, but I think this is close enough to accuracy for "folk song". > > At The Seventeenth Cycle's End > Mark A. Mandel Copr. 2002 > Ttto In Good Old Colony Times, trad. > Based on Steven Brust's _Five Hundred Years After_ > > (Note: "Jhereg" is pronounced "zhuh-REG", where "zh" is the sound of "s" > in "pleasure", and accented on the second syllable, roughly rhyming with > "break a leg" as said to an actor or an enforcer.) > > At the Seventeenth Cycle's end > With the Phoenix fated to fail > A Jhereg, a Tiassa, and a Dragon proud > Were part of a tragic tale > Part of a tragic tale > A Jhereg, a Tiassa, and a Dragon proud > Were part of a tragic tale > > The Jhereg was betrayed by his House > The Tiassa by the great > And the Dragon was betrayed by his soaring pride > And the twisted workings of fate > [repeat as above] > > The Jhereg got his revenge > The Tiassa his reward > And the Dragon was dissolved in swirling Chaos > When he tried to take the Orb > > Now, nobody's seen the Jhereg > The Tiassa can still draw blood > And the Dragon's ghost haunts the Lesser Sea of Chaos > Where Dragaera City once stood > > -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname > http://world.std.com/~mam/filk.html > http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ > a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website > > From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Fri Nov 29 13:43:00 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 15:43:00 -0600 Subject: Ol' Time religion (was Daminano's Lute) References: <200211292012.gATKCqcH009032@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: Frank Mayhar wrote: > Andrew McGuigan wrote: >> --- Frank Mayhar wrote: >> Well, if you would not assume that I didn't read what >> you wrote, but simply failed to understand your point, >> this would be a more pleasant discussion. > > You're right. I apologize. I thought I was clear enough, but > apparently your mileage differs. > >> Ok, so not everyone who believes in their religion or >> their God is crazy, just those who get upset when it's >> threatened? > > I know a number of well-adjusted religious folk who are not > threatened at all by alternative viewpoints, or even by my assertion > that they're nuts for believing in such claptrap. Someone who reacts > very emotionally, though, has something more going on than just the > belief itself. There are those annoying Underlying Issues. > >> I *don't* have a drinking problem, I have a *stopping* problem. :) > > Hey, admitting it is the first step to getting over it. :-) Denial is the first step to acceptance as acceptance is the first step to denial. it's cyclical. > > (*heh* "Christians Anonymous," anyone? :-) From casey at trinityhartford.org Fri Nov 29 13:45:31 2002 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 16:45:31 -0500 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <20021129201319.GC15705@ofb.net> Message-ID: <000001c297f0$a700d4f0$a902a8c0@KCRINSP8200> Damien Sullivan replied to my post: > > The most devout atheists I know were taught by their parents to be > > atheists. > > Not sure what you mean by 'devout'. OK. [Gets down American Heritage, since Steve apparently prefers it] 1. Devoted to religion or to the fulfillment of religious obligations. 2. Displaying reverence or piety. 3. Sincere; earnest. > The most aggressive atheists _I_ know are lapsed Roman > Catholics or Orthodox. The ones raised in a godless > environment tend to be more live-and-let-live. This can > change if some religious person stops letting them live, but > that's only natural. Evangelists of all faiths can be unpleasant if they are aggressive. Atheist, Christian or Hare Krishna. In my own experience, converts are the most aggressive in their evangelism. There's a great line at the end of 'When Harry Met Sally' When you finally figure out who it is that you want to spend the rest of your life with, you want to start spending it with them right now. If it is this way with romance, how much more should it be like this with religion? Casey From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Fri Nov 29 13:47:08 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 15:47:08 -0600 Subject: The Religion Debate References: <20021129201401.GD15705@ofb.net> Message-ID: Damien Sullivan wrote: > On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 12:26:36AM -0600, Gametech wrote: > >> I don't think faith is a bad thing, beliving that when you purchase >> something from someone on ebay that they will send you the item >> requires faith, faith in that person for being honest. Sure you can >> make the most > > I call that 'trust', not 'faith'. > > -xx- Damien X-) faith 1.Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. 2.Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief See Synonyms at trust. 3.Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters. 4.often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will. 5.The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith. 6.A set of principles or beliefs. read deffiniton # one, trust and faith are fairly synomonous and you are rightly so to call what I call faith trust, but I'm rightly so to call it that myself. From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Fri Nov 29 13:51:20 2002 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 15:51:20 -0600 Subject: Straw Poll about Reply-to References: <539461F1.0B9616BE.00048EA6@aol.com> <49901.209.245.99.167.1038602396.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: Rick Castello wrote: >> In a message dated 11/29/2002 2:03:00 PM Eastern Standard >> Time, "Rick Castello" writes: >> >>> (Any mail client worth its salt has both a "reply-to-list" >>> and "reply-to-sender" function.) >> >> Some of us aren't priveledged enough to be even *able* to >> use email clients of any sort. > > Webmail counts as an email client, and is no excuse. :) > > > I'm the project lead for the SquirrelMail webmail project, > and we've specifically designed it to work properly for > mailing lists, providing links for "reply to sender", > "reply to list", and even links to get list info and > unsubscribe from properly configured (according to RFCs) > mailing lists... all from a single message sent to that > list. > > http://squirrelmail.org/ > > > *grin* > > -Rick I use squirrel mail from at dreamhost because dreamhost pop3 is finiky when I configure it with outlook express but I haven't used it with this list, it's nice to know it can handle it. From righel at msn.com Fri Nov 29 14:08:41 2002 From: righel at msn.com (Rosemary Ighel) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 16:08:41 -0600 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <20021129165846.75274.qmail@web12705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew McGuigan [mailto:ajmcguigan at yahoo.com] > I've always wondered if anyone has heard the word > lapsed used to describe anyone but a "Catholic". :) Photography. Time lapsed. OTOH, most people simple relapse. R. From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Fri Nov 29 14:05:26 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 16:05:26 -0600 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <15843.46891.246035.618358@gw.dd-b.net> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127153459.00a5b510@dd-b.net> Message-ID: <3DE7E4A6.1000409@attbi.com> DDB asked: 6. Do you find it difficult to reply to the individual poster in a list where reply-munging is done? No. Though my email software (Netscape) is too stupid to have a reply-to-list button, I *can* click on an email address to generate a message to it. 7. Have you ever heard of anybody being seriously embarrassed, or even harmed (fired, say), for sending a private reply instead of a public reply? No. 8. Have you ever heard of anybody being seriously embarrassed, or even harmed (fired, say), for sending a public reply instead of a private reply? No. From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Fri Nov 29 14:07:04 2002 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 16:07:04 -0600 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <15843.46891.246035.618358@gw.dd-b.net> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127153459.00a5b510@dd-b.net> <3DE6DF13.2010108@attbi.com> Message-ID: <3DE7E508.6070008@attbi.com> ddb wrote: >This is bizarre; I don't understand how that can happen. When I'm looking at a message sent to the list, the list name is present in the To: or cc: header. > Ummm . . . in your msg list in your in-box? Mine says that once I open it to see the headers, but what if it turns out to be something I didn't want to open? Mia From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Fri Nov 29 14:23:43 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 14:23:43 -0800 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) In-Reply-To: References: <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <15843.46891.246035.618358@gw.dd-b.net> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127153459.00a5b510@dd-b.net> Message-ID: <20021129222343.GA27678@ofb.net> On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 09:21:50AM -0600, Nancy Thuleen wrote: > > 1. Have you accidentally sent a private reply instead of posting to > > the list? Yeah. If not hee, then elsewhere. > > 2. Have you received an accidental private reply that was meant to go > > to the list? Yeah. > > 4. Has the Reply-To behavior of this list caused you confusion when > > posting to other mailing lists, perhaps even causing you to No, this list just confuses me for itself. > (discussion-based lists), and with only one exception, they all have the > reply-to set to the individual poster, just like this list -- correctly, in > other words. :) Do I just belong to unusual lists, or is this really not > the norm? One list I've been on since 1993 has had it that way forever, In my own experience, such behavior is exceptional. Most lists I'm familiar with set Reply-To to the list. Of the two others which don't, one is a simple sendmail group alias -- there's no software to munge headers with, or subscribe with (owner does it all manually) and one (the Cherryh list) only comes out as a digest from the list owner. > and all of the others have had that set since their inception. Only one > list -- and the one I'd characterize as less technologically-savvy, that I joined the extropians list in 1993; it had already been around for a few years. It's very tech-savvy, and has always set Reply-To to the list. That's hardly a new thing; majordomo is old. Or VMS LISTSERV. AFAIK cypherpunks also sets Reply-To, and you don't get more savvy than that... Before using mutt, I did find it annoying to reply privately to individuals. But these were discussion lists; I rarely wanted to do such a thing. -xx- Damien X-) From jazzfish at softhome.net Fri Nov 29 15:03:09 2002 From: jazzfish at softhome.net (Tucker) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 18:03:09 -0500 Subject: E'Barritt Line? In-Reply-To: <20021126215814.22100.qmail@web13702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20021129180052.02b1fd28@pop.softhome.net> >I was rereading /Jhereg/ while waiting for /Paths of the Dead/ to appear at my >local bookstore, and I came across a reference to the first Dragon-Jhereg war. >The book says that "The e'Kieron line was almost wiped out, and for a while it >seemed the e'Barritt line had been" (Jhereg, p74). This confused me. I thought >I remember it being a point of /Dragon/ that when Barritt died, his >descendants >began calling themselves e'Barritt as a tribute to his greatness. So how could >there have been any e'Barritts before the Interregnum, let alone during the >first Dragon-Jhereg war? Anyone have any ideas? Um. Uh. Okay, how's this: After several gazillion years of Dragaerans, they're eventually going to run out of good-sounding names and start repeating themselves. So maybe there was an e'Baritt line named after someone else named Baritt, that got wiped out in the D-J war, and the 'new' Baritt just happened to be cool enough to get the line revived. Vlad, being an Easterner and untutored in Dragon history, might not be able to tell the difference between the e'Baritts. ---- The time for action is past-- now is the time for senseless bickering! --Ashleigh Brilliant From frank at exit.com Fri Nov 29 15:08:04 2002 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 15:08:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200211292308.gATN84ci010529@realtime.exit.com> Alex Nixon wrote: > Canada, actually. Hey, it was a rhetorical question (I was thinking maybe Europe, but Canada may also be better than the US in this respect). > But that's not the point. I'm saying that there's enough of a place in > society for Atheism that it's pretty foolish to be angry about it. This is where I disagree. I don't think that there's very much of a place in society at all for atheism. > Maybe I didn't make myself clear: I consider questioning to be great and > productive, but anger and hate over religion is neither. I disagree with this, too. Hate may not be productive, but anger can be _very_ productive, as an agent for change. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ From mam at theworld.com Fri Nov 29 15:22:01 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 18:22:01 -0500 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Nov 2002, Thomas Yan wrote: #First, a suggestion. When you intentionally send a private reply, #please try to say so, so the recipient doesn't have to query you to #check if you meant it to be private rather than public. I normally begin such messages with "(Off-list.)" for just that reason, or to reassure the recipient that a message is private that they might prefer to remain so. #1. Have you accidentally sent a private reply instead of posting to # the list? Yes. #1'. Have you accidentally posted to the list instead of sending a # private reply? I don't think so, on this list. #2. Have you received an accidental private reply that was meant to go # to the list? Yes. #3. When you get a message that was sent to you instead of the list, do # you feel obliged to query the sender to ask him or her if it was # meant to private instead of to the list? Often I don't even notice, or I see very soon that the sender has noticed their slip and re-sent to the list. #4. Has the Reply-To behavior of this list caused you confusion when # posting to other mailing lists, perhaps even causing you to # accidentally send a private e-mail instead of posting or vice # versa? Possibly. But most lists I'm on are intended as *discussion* lists and are therefore set up to facilitate discussion, with a default that replies go to the entire list. Some lists implement this by having the message come "From:" the list and including a line identifying the sender and timestamp; others by a "Reply-to: [list address]" header. #5. How do you feel about the Reply-To behavior of this list? # Do you + dislike it -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From feaelin at kemenel.org Fri Nov 29 15:22:57 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 17:22:57 -0600 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Thomas Yan [mailto:tyan at twcny.rr.com] > Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 9:21 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) > Well, it won't necessarily convince anyone, but let's have a > little poll: > > 1. Have you accidentally sent a private reply instead of posting to > the list? Yes. Many times. > 1'. Have you accidentally posted to the list instead of sending a > private reply? Uh...why would I want to send a a private reply? > 2. Have you received an accidental private reply that was meant to go > to the list? Yes. More than once. > 3. When you get a message that was sent to you instead of the list, do > you feel obliged to query the sender to ask him or her if it was > meant to private instead of to the list? Yes. Which means it generates a huge waste of time. :) > 4. Has the Reply-To behavior of this list caused you confusion when > posting to other mailing lists, perhaps even causing you to > accidentally send a private e-mail instead of posting or vice > versa? No...because other lists work properly. :) :) :) > 5. How do you feel about the Reply-To behavior of this list? > Do you > + love it > + like it > + don't much care > + dislike it > + hate it > + hate it, Hate It, HATE IT! At a minimum, "hate it", if not "hate it, hate it, HATE IT!"..."You know that stuff that's left in a chamberpot after you empty it?..." From mam at theworld.com Fri Nov 29 15:29:21 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 18:29:21 -0500 Subject: new filk on FHYA In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20021129092846.01d94240@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Nov 2002, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: #At 21:25 11/28/2002 -0500, Mark A Mandel wrote: #> At the Seventeenth Cycle's end #> With the Phoenix fated to fail #> A Jhereg, a Tiassa, and a Dragon proud #> Were part of a tragic tale #> Part of a tragic tale # #I think this line is repeated again--at least, as I learned "Good Old #Colony Times", it is. The second repeat ends on a minor chord (a instead #of C when I strum it). I think I have heard it that way, but as I remember, or misremember, learning it, it really did have only one repeat (2 iterations) for a total of 7 lines per verse. Apply the tune and template you're most comfortable with! -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname http://world.std.com/~mam/filk.html From mam at theworld.com Fri Nov 29 15:31:02 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 18:31:02 -0500 Subject: new filk on FHYA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 29 Nov 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: [...] #> The Jhereg got his revenge #> The Tiassa his reward #> And the Dragon was dissolved in swirling Chaos #> When he tried to take the Orb #> #> Now, nobody's seen the Jhereg #> The Tiassa can still draw blood #> And the Dragon's ghost haunts the Lesser Sea of Chaos #> Where Dragaera City once stood # #That's very nice indeed. A couple of lines need to be force-fit for #emphasis, but at least they're *consistent* about it. Thank you. I figured I had good precedent for the force-fitting in the original: And the Devil got his claw on the little taiLOR With the broadcloth under his arm and And the little taiLOR goes skipping through Hell With the broadcloth under his arm -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname http://world.std.com/~mam/filk.html From mam at theworld.com Fri Nov 29 15:31:35 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 18:31:35 -0500 Subject: new filk on FHYA In-Reply-To: <080701c297f0$0df524f0$17ecca18@ingram> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Nov 2002, Scott Ingram wrote: #You know, that kinda-sorta fits with the Gilligan's Island theme music... B*st*rd's demons take it, what DOESN'T?! -- Mark M. From mam at theworld.com Fri Nov 29 15:33:02 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 18:33:02 -0500 Subject: new filk on FHYA In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129005423.02bb8df0@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Nov 2002, Steven Brust wrote: #At 09:25 PM 11/28/2002 -0500, Mark A Mandel wrote: #>I'm currently AFB (away from books) and I haven't reread FHYA in a #>while, but I think this is close enough to accuracy for "folk song". #> #>At The Seventeenth Cycle's End #>Mark A. Mandel Copr. 2002 #>Ttto In Good Old Colony Times, trad. #>Based on Steven Brust's _Five Hundred Years After_ # #I like that! Mr. Hoover will like that! I'm glad you all liked it (at least, all who spoke up), and I'm especially glad Steve did. Mr. Hoover? The late unlamented J. Edgar? Your vacuum cleaner? ??? Steve, may I post this on my filk website? -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname http://world.std.com/~mam/filk.html From feaelin at kemenel.org Fri Nov 29 15:39:49 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 17:39:49 -0600 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Nancy Thuleen [mailto:nthuleen at students.wisc.edu] > Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 9:22 AM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) > Definitely not. This is what puzzles me: I'm on 5 or 6 lists > like this one (discussion-based lists), and with only one > exception, they all have the reply-to set to the individual > poster, just like this list -- correctly, in other words. :) Interesting. I'm on ...well, more lists than I can accurrately count (at least 10, maybe as many as 20), and I'm pretty certain this is the only one that is configured this way, which is why it is so problematic for me. :) Hmm. Perhaps I should survey my lists, just to see for sure.) Not includinig dragaera.info lists: 18 lists, which as it turns out there are a mere 2 others that operate in the same fashion as the /this/ dragaera list (note, I've not counted any of the "announce-only" lists...no one replies to those, anyway, nor did I count lists which I'm on, but are effectively dead -- no activity in months.). From feaelin at kemenel.org Fri Nov 29 15:47:34 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 17:47:34 -0600 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: David Dyer-Bennet [mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net] > Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 1:39 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) > 6. Do you find it difficult to reply to the individual poster in a > list where reply-munging is done? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This is meaningful technical jargon? Perhaps you need to rephrase you question. :) > 7. Have you ever heard of anybody being seriously embarrassed, or > even harmed (fired, say), for sending a private reply instead of a > public reply? No. > 8. Have you ever heard of anybody being seriously embarrassed, or > even harmed (fired, say), for sending a public reply instead of a > private reply? No. Why would this have relevance on a non-work-related list? From feaelin at kemenel.org Fri Nov 29 15:52:16 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 17:52:16 -0600 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: David Dyer-Bennet [mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net] > Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 1:41 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) > This is bizarre; I don't understand how that can happen. > When I'm looking at a message sent to the list, the list name > is present in the > To: or cc: header. Yes...but when you're sorting a list of 300-400 messages, that means you're looking at columnar list, usually looking for senders you don't know. If I hadn't come up with an effective sorting filter to sort the dragara.info lists into folders, I'd probably be mass deleting the list mail, since I wouldn't see it as being from someone I knew. :). One could change your columnar list so that it displayed the sender...but I don't see why someone should do this simply because of one list. Oh look, almost sent this one privately. Now I have to go type the stupid list address again. :) From feaelin at kemenel.org Fri Nov 29 15:56:07 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 17:56:07 -0600 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew McGuigan [mailto:ajmcguigan at yahoo.com] > Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 1:50 PM > To: David Dyer-Bennet; dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) > I use Yahoo's web client at work to reply to this list > (don't tell my boss ;) ), and it doesn't show (and is > not configurable as far as I can tell) the "to" field, > just the "from" field, which is the individual. > > However, I've worked around this with a filter that > drops messages sent to "dragaera at dragaera.info" into a > separate folder. Hmm. I could see this especially problematic for those who rely on Yahoo! and other web-based e-mail accounts that operate similarly. From feaelin at kemenel.org Fri Nov 29 15:59:33 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 17:59:33 -0600 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Mia McDavid [mailto:mia_mcdavid at attbi.com] > Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 2:45 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) > 6. Do you receive multiple copies of posts because the sended > replied to all and didn't trim? > > Yes. Note that this is a different #6 from David's #6, potentiallly confusing. Strangely, I've not experienced this. > 6'. Do you find this to be an annoying waste of bandwidth? > > Yes. I would, if it had occurred (see Mia's #6. :) > 7. Do you occasionally have trouble telling legitimate posts > from spam? > > Yes. Hee...I assume you mean when looking at sender/subjectlines: Yes. This question could easily turn into a commentary about the /content/ of some of the messages *evil grin*. From rick at 404.978.org Fri Nov 29 16:26:56 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 19:26:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Holy War of Reply-To Munging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50374.209.245.99.167.1038616016.squirrel@404.978.org> Davis, Iain E. said: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Nancy Thuleen [mailto:nthuleen at students.wisc.edu] >> Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 9:22 AM >> To: dragaera at dragaera.info >> Subject: Re: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) > >> Definitely not. This is what puzzles me: I'm on 5 or 6 lists >> like this one (discussion-based lists), and with only one >> exception, they all have the reply-to set to the individual >> poster, just like this list -- correctly, in other words. :) > > Interesting. I'm on ...well, more lists than I can accurrately count > (at least 10, maybe as many as 20), and I'm pretty certain this is the > only one that is configured this way, which is why it is so problematic > for me. :) > > Hmm. Perhaps I should survey my lists, just to see for sure.) > > Not includinig dragaera.info lists: 18 lists, which as it turns out > there are a mere 2 others that operate in the same fashion as the /this/ > dragaera list (note, I've not counted any of the "announce-only" > lists...no one replies to those, anyway, nor did I count lists which I'm > on, but are effectively dead -- no activity in months.). In my experience, the more technically adept the members of a list are, the more likely they are to do things *this* way, that is, NOT to munge the reply-to headers. Yes, some lists of geeks munge headers. Many do not. Sourceforge.net hosts THOUSANDS of mailing lists- their policy is not to munge. To those who say that sending replies to sender instead of munging wastes bandwidth: We're supposed to be intelligent, learning beings. We've got opposable thumbs, and can have flame-free discussions on religion. Remembering something THIS BASIC is NOT HARD, folks. Think of it this way... the mailing list isn't a person, it's a way to facilitate mail delivery within a topic. As with personal email, when you hit reply, your email will be sent to the *person* who sent the email you're replying to, not the delivery system. (Yes, it's more complex than that, and no, I'm not going to go into the workings of SMTP and the like. Close enough.) It's really not hard to remember gang, and DDB's right. If you accidentally reply to sender instead of the list, it's ONE email inconveniening two people, the sender and the recipient. The sender has to resend to list, and the recipient will get an extra copy of the message. Other way around: You slip for a message meant for DDB alone, and inconvenience the whole list, wasting a lot more bandwidth, and possibly embarrassing yourself or DDB or both with the contents of your hero worship mail. Go one step further. Some putz puts a "vacation" autoresponder on their email address, responding to EVERY message they get for the week they're not checking their mail. Every message goes to the list, and causes a mail loop. Bad Juju. (Yes, many smart mailing list packages have patches to avoid this... but just as not all email clients aren't smart enough to handle "reply to list," so are not all mailing lists able to handle loops. If we're catering to mediocrity, we'd best do so on both sides.) If your memory is REALLY that bad, put a post-it note on your monitor frame. -Rick From rick at 404.978.org Fri Nov 29 16:37:49 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 19:37:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Straw Poll about Reply-to (was: Damiano's Lute) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50420.209.245.99.167.1038616669.squirrel@404.978.org> Davis, Iain E. said: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: David Dyer-Bennet [mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net] >> Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 1:39 PM >> To: dragaera at dragaera.info >> Subject: Re: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) > >> 6. Do you find it difficult to reply to the individual poster in a >> list where reply-munging is done? > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > This is meaningful technical jargon? Perhaps you need to rephrase you > question. :) Yes, it is. Perhaps he doesn't. ;) http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html -Rick From RuhlenR at missouri.edu Fri Nov 29 16:44:45 2002 From: RuhlenR at missouri.edu (Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student)) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 18:44:45 -0600 Subject: E'Barritt Line? Message-ID: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E01245542@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> > -----Original Message----- > From: Tucker [mailto:jazzfish at softhome.net] > Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 5:03 PM > > >I was rereading /Jhereg/ while waiting for /Paths of the Dead/ to > >appear at my local bookstore, and I came across a reference to the > >first Dragon-Jhereg war. The book says that "The e'Kieron line was > >almost wiped out, and for a while it seemed the e'Barritt line had > >been" (Jhereg, p74). This confused me. I thought I remember > it being a > >point of /Dragon/ that when Barritt died, his descendants > began calling > >themselves e'Barritt as a tribute to his greatness. So how > could there > >have been any e'Barritts before the Interregnum, let alone > during the > >first Dragon-Jhereg war? Anyone have any ideas? > > Um. Uh. Okay, how's this: > > After several gazillion years of Dragaerans, they're > eventually going to > run out of good-sounding names and start repeating > themselves. So maybe > there was an e'Baritt line named after someone else named > Baritt, that got > wiped out in the D-J war, and the 'new' Baritt just happened > to be cool > enough to get the line revived. Vlad, being an Easterner and > untutored in > Dragon history, might not be able to tell the difference > between the e'Baritts. I came across that last time I read _Jhereg_, because that particular story has so many inconsistencies with several other books (both from Vlad series & Khaavren romances). Here is how I interpreted it: First, I thought (but would have to check) that Barritt's descendents started calling themselves e'Barritt and no mention was made of when that occurred (before or after his death). So it could have occurred before his death, and most of them died during the Interregnum. Or there was a line of e'Barritts, who were nearly wiped out, and Barritts descendents also began calling themselves e'Barritt. I prefer the first explanation, myself. Rachel From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Nov 29 16:44:08 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 19:44:08 -0500 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" Message-ID: <31BFD1EA.62C4068C.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated 11/29/2002 6:59:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Davis, Iain E." writes: I (gaertk at aol.com) wrote: >> 6. Do you receive multiple copies of posts because the >> sended replied to all and didn't trim? >> >> Yes. > > Note that this is a different #6 from David's #6, > potentiallly confusing. Actually, this is my #6 (Mia already apologised for misattributing her post). > Strangely, I've not experienced this. Ironically, I can tell from the headers that Mia just got two copies of your post. And just to show you what it looks like, I didn't trim your address. --KG From pgranzeau at cox.net Fri Nov 29 16:54:01 2002 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 19:54:01 -0500 Subject: [SKZB] Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) In-Reply-To: <20021129222343.GA27678@ofb.net> References: <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <15843.46891.246035.618358@gw.dd-b.net> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127153459.00a5b510@dd-b.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20021129194811.01d92680@pop.east.cox.net> At 14:23 11/29/2002 -0800, Damien Sullivan wrote: > > (discussion-based lists), and with only one exception, they all have the > > reply-to set to the individual poster, just like this list -- correctly, in > > other words. :) Do I just belong to unusual lists, or is this really not > > the norm? One list I've been on since 1993 has had it that way forever, > >In my own experience, such behavior is exceptional. Most lists I'm familiar >with set Reply-To to the list. Of the two others which don't, one is a simple >sendmail group alias -- there's no software to munge headers with, or >subscribe with (owner does it all manually) and one (the Cherryh list) only >comes out as a digest from the list owner. I'm only on two other lists. One, Dendarii-L (Lois Bujold) sets replies to the list. It is very busy, frequently 200 mesages a day. The other, Searoom-L, sets replies to the individual sender. I have as much trouble there as I do here, but with far fewer messages. One thing both of those lists do that this one might consider, is that a bracketed ID of the list is added to each subject line (after the "Re:" if there is one). So I can filter for [LMB] or for [Searoom], and get them sorted out and lined up. Maybe this list could add [SKZB] to the subject line, as I have done on this message. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From rick at 404.978.org Fri Nov 29 17:13:17 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 20:13:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: [SKZB] Straw Poll about Reply-to (was: Damiano's Lute) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20021129194811.01d92680@pop.east.cox.net> References: <200211261750.gAQHo2u21861@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <15843.46891.246035.618358@gw.dd-b.net> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127153459.00a5b510@dd-b.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20021129194811.01d92680@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <50601.209.245.99.167.1038618797.squirrel@404.978.org> Peter H. Granzeau said: > I'm only on two other lists. > > One thing both of those lists do that this one might consider, is that a > bracketed ID of the list is added to each subject line (after the "Re:" > if there is one). So I can filter for [LMB] or for [Searoom], and get > them sorted out and lined up. Maybe this list could add [SKZB] to the > subject line, as I have done on this message. This is an excellent suggestion, and something we do with the SquirrelMail mailing lists, too. We could easily use [Dragaera], [Dragaera-RPG], and [Dragaera-Read] or some shortened versions thereof to label the lists (or the ones I've kept track of). -Rick From unitcancellation at hotmail.com Fri Nov 29 17:15:23 2002 From: unitcancellation at hotmail.com (Alex Nixon) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:15:23 -0400 Subject: The Religion Debate Message-ID: I can't speak for everyone here, but I do know this: I have never been discriminated by on the grounds of religion, nor have any of my friends, nor have any of my family, half of which is American. This does not mean that it doesn't happen, only that it hasn't happened to me or the people I care about. That is in part why I'm not threatened by anyone's religion. The other part is that I don't give a rat's ass about other people's beliefs, as long as they don't get pissy with me over them. I feel we will have to disagree on the other two issues. The first is because I truly do feel that, at least in the majority of the Western World, there is a place in the society for each and every belief structure. Furthermore, while I will conceed that anger is a proponent of social change, I feel that the anger displayed thus far is of a more personal nature, and thus has no place in this discussion. I believe it to be anger borne out of hatred, or at least prejudice, which is entirely unproductive. Religious reform is going to take a hellishly long time to complete. It's a lot like feminist, racial reform, and the abolision of slavery in the USA. It takes awhile for it to take. But I do feel that it will happen. So just sit down, have a pepsi, and take a page out of Phil Jackson's and Joe Torre's manual for Zen-inity. You'll feel a lot better in the morning. Alex ----Original Message Follows---- From: Frank Mayhar Alex Nixon wrote: > Canada, actually. Hey, it was a rhetorical question (I was thinking maybe Europe, but Canada may also be better than the US in this respect). > But that's not the point. I'm saying that there's enough of a place in > society for Atheism that it's pretty foolish to be angry about it. This is where I disagree. I don't think that there's very much of a place in society at all for atheism. > Maybe I didn't make myself clear: I consider questioning to be great and > productive, but anger and hate over religion is neither. I disagree with this, too. Hate may not be productive, but anger can be _very_ productive, as an agent for change. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Nov 29 17:12:45 2002 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 20:12:45 -0500 Subject: Straw Poll about Reply-to Message-ID: <47328E72.46D6EFAB.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated 11/29/2002 3:39:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Rick Castello" writes: I (gaertk at aol.com) wrote: >> Some of us aren't priveledged enough to be even *able* to >> use email clients of any sort. > > ? ? Webmail counts as an email client, and is no excuse. I'm on Aol. Aol doesn't use POP3, IMAP, nor SMTP for handling email (for its members). How exactly is a web client (other than the lousy one I'm using to write this) going to help me? --KG From feaelin at kemenel.org Fri Nov 29 17:15:48 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 19:15:48 -0600 Subject: Straw Poll about Reply-to Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Castello [mailto:rick at 404.978.org] > Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 1:03 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE: Straw Poll about Reply-to > Did DDB give any inclination that the reply-to behavior of the > list would change at all depending on this impromptu poll? > > His box, his rules, as far as I'm concerned. > If the discussion is compelling enough, perhaps people will > start using smarter mail clients, or (gasp!) learn/remember > the way the list works. Actually, that's a questionable premise, since the intention of a list is to have _discussion_. Any barriers to discussion (technical or otherwise), should be regarded as a problem. Including the list owner(s). :) :) More likely, we'll move to a different list owner. :) From feaelin at kemenel.org Fri Nov 29 17:16:15 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 19:16:15 -0600 Subject: Straw Poll about Reply-to Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Castello [mailto:rick at 404.978.org] > Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 2:40 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE: Straw Poll about Reply-to > > I'm the project lead for the SquirrelMail webmail project, > and we've specifically designed it to work properly for > mailing lists, providing links for "reply to sender", > "reply to list", and even links to get list info and > unsubscribe from properly configured (according to RFCs) > mailing lists... all from a single message sent to that > list. Ah.. So your position on this matter is influenced by your desire to promote your product. :) Many Many people out there are not _rich_ enough to have control over what e-mail client they can use, either because they use a public free service locally, or have other restrictions (often work-related). Your assertions that people should "select a better e-mail client" is elitest at best, and discriminatory, at worst. From feaelin at kemenel.org Fri Nov 29 17:26:02 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 19:26:02 -0600 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Gaertk at aol.com [mailto:Gaertk at aol.com] > Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 6:44 PM > To: Davis, Iain E.; dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" > > > In a message dated 11/29/2002 6:59:33 PM Eastern Standard > Time, "Davis, Iain E." writes: > > I (gaertk at aol.com) wrote: > > >> 6. Do you receive multiple copies of posts because the > >> sended replied to all and didn't trim? > >> > >> Yes. > > > > Note that this is a different #6 from David's #6, > > potentiallly confusing. > > Actually, this is my #6 (Mia already apologised for > misattributing her post). Oops. Make that KG's #6. :) Apologies for adding to the confusion. ;) > > Strangely, I've not experienced this. > > Ironically, I can tell from the headers that Mia just got > two copies of your post. And just to show you what it looks > like, I didn't trim your address. Oddly, I still didn't receive two copies. It may have to do with the way I have my mail-sorting filters setup, OR, since I use my work's corporately managed mail system, it's possible the duplicate was intercepted at the higher level. As an aside, I suspect one of the reasons David doesn't have a problem with this particular issue, is because if you're not on his "list of people that aren't spammers", messages addressed directly to him get held, and you get annoying messages in your inbox about it. :) From rick at 404.978.org Fri Nov 29 17:37:46 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 20:37:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Straw Poll about Reply-to In-Reply-To: <47328E72.46D6EFAB.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <47328E72.46D6EFAB.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <50660.209.245.99.167.1038620266.squirrel@404.978.org> > In a message dated 11/29/2002 3:39:56 PM Eastern Standard > Time, "Rick Castello" writes: > > I (gaertk at aol.com) wrote: > >>> Some of us aren't priveledged enough to be even *able* to >>> use email clients of any sort. >> >> Webmail counts as an email client, and is no excuse. > > I'm on Aol. Aol doesn't use POP3, IMAP, nor SMTP for > handling email (for its members). How exactly is a web > client (other than the lousy one I'm using to write this) > going to help me? AOL is best used as a simple dialup connection. They have dialup numbers everywhere, but their actual software blows pygmy goats. Once connected, minimize their client, open a clean real browser, and use someone else's webmail tool. :) If you'd like a free webmail account on my server (using SquirrelMail, natch), you're welcome to it. Just reply to sender (grin) and I'll set you up. -Rick From feaelin at kemenel.org Fri Nov 29 17:38:50 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 19:38:50 -0600 Subject: Straw Poll about Reply-to (was: Damiano's Lute) Message-ID: > > This is meaningful technical jargon? Perhaps you need to > rephrase you > > question. :) > > Yes, it is. Perhaps he doesn't. ;) > http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html A single essay doesn't make it meaningful jargon. :) Although, at least essay made an effort explain what he/she meant by "munging e-mail headers. :) From rick at 404.978.org Fri Nov 29 17:47:51 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 20:47:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Straw Poll about Reply-to In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50673.209.245.99.167.1038620871.squirrel@404.978.org> Davis, Iain E. said: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rick Castello [mailto:rick at 404.978.org] >> Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 2:40 PM >> To: dragaera at dragaera.info >> Subject: RE: Straw Poll about Reply-to > >> >> I'm the project lead for the SquirrelMail webmail project, and >> we've specifically designed it to work properly for >> mailing lists, providing links for "reply to sender", >> "reply to list", and even links to get list info and >> unsubscribe from properly configured (according to RFCs) >> mailing lists... all from a single message sent to that >> list. > > > Ah.. So your position on this matter is influenced by your desire to > promote your product. :) Perhaps I should have clarified. SquirrelMail is FREE, open source, and I make not one cent from its use or not, nor do ANY of the members of the development team. We do it because we care. Personally, I don't care *what* client you use, as long as it isn't a broken one. I'm promoting RFC compliance, not my project. > Many Many people out there are not _rich_ enough to have control over > what e-mail client they can use, either because they use a public free > service locally, or have other restrictions (often work-related). Your > assertions that people should "select a better e-mail client" is elitest > at best, and discriminatory, at worst. Elitist? Discriminatory? Them's fightin' words. :) There are public free services that aren't borked. Rich has nothing to do with it, and your personal attack merely clouds the matter, adding nothing to the discussion. Your claims are unfounded, and rude. I discussed the merits of compliant mail tools. Where was I beling elitist? -Rick From jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca Fri Nov 29 17:54:28 2002 From: jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca (James and Mary Burbidge) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 20:54:28 -0500 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129005221.02bc0380@localhost> Message-ID: <3DE81A54.713F05E6@sympatico.ca> Steven Brust wrote: > > At 08:17 PM 11/28/2002 -0500, Mark A Mandel wrote: > > > >All together, now, class: > > I before E, > > except after C > > or when pronounced "ay", > > as in "neighbor" and "weigh". > > I before E, except when in words derived from the verb "capio", or when pronounced... > >(Or any other time that it's followed by "gh", as in "height" > > and in some other words that you just have to call exceptions, > > like "seize".) > > And don't forget weird, which is weird. Which makes it homological. -- James Burbidge jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca From rick at 404.978.org Fri Nov 29 17:58:24 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 20:58:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: Straw Poll about Reply-to (was: Damiano's Lute) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50689.209.245.99.167.1038621504.squirrel@404.978.org> Davis, Iain E. said: >> > This is meaningful technical jargon? Perhaps you need to >> rephrase you >> > question. :) >> >> Yes, it is. Perhaps he doesn't. ;) >> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html > > A single essay doesn't make it meaningful jargon. :) This particular essay has been WELL read, argued for and against, and referenced for YEARS. I disagree. Ask any experienced net technical person what munging means. See what they say. I'd argue that it's already entered the common technical lexicon. Care to "discuss" this more off-list? I'd be happy to continue, but I doubt anyone else much cares anymore. ;) -Rick From rick at 404.978.org Fri Nov 29 17:59:15 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 20:59:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: Straw Poll about Reply-to (was: Damiano's Lute) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50691.209.245.99.167.1038621555.squirrel@404.978.org> Davis, Iain E. said: >> > This is meaningful technical jargon? Perhaps you need to >> rephrase you >> > question. :) >> >> Yes, it is. Perhaps he doesn't. ;) >> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html > > A single essay doesn't make it meaningful jargon. :) This particular essay has been WELL read, argued for and against, and referenced for YEARS. I disagree. Ask any experienced net technical person what munging means. See what they say. I'd argue that it's already entered the common technical lexicon. Care to "discuss" this more off-list? I'd be happy to continue, but I doubt anyone else much cares anymore (if they ever did). ;) -Rick From mam at theworld.com Fri Nov 29 18:04:20 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:04:20 -0500 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 29 Nov 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: #It's been suggested that mail clients implement "reply to sender" as #yet another workaround. However, the easiest solution is simply to #implement the RFC defining message headers giving posting, subscribe, #and unsubscribe addresses. I know Pegasus mail imlements that one, #for example. Then you can click on a button to do the precise thing #you want. You have buttons? I have a slow dialup connection, so I do my email and newsgroups through a tty-emulation text-only connection, using pine and tin. In order to send this reply to the list I had to answer affirmatively to pine's question "reply to all?", which I have set to default to "no", which is appropriate for most non-list mail. If I had forgotten to do that when starting the reply, my only clue that I was replying off-list would be negative: the absence of Cc : dragaera at dragaera.info -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Fri Nov 29 18:08:25 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:08:25 -0500 Subject: Straw Poll about Reply-to In-Reply-To: <49901.209.245.99.167.1038602396.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Nov 2002, Rick Castello wrote: # # I'm the project lead for the SquirrelMail webmail project, Ah, webmail. Nice app if you can get it. See my previous post about why I (am practically forced to) use text-only command-line email. -- Mark A. Mandel From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Nov 29 17:57:11 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 19:57:11 -0600 Subject: [SKZB] Straw Poll about Reply-to (was: Damiano's Lute) In-Reply-To: <50601.209.245.99.167.1038618797.squirrel@404.978.org> References: <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127153459.00a5b510@dd-b.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20021129194811.01d92680@pop.east.cox.net> <50601.209.245.99.167.1038618797.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: <20021130015711.GL13958@infodancer.org> On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 08:13:17PM -0500, Rick Castello wrote: > Peter H. Granzeau said: > > I'm only on two other lists. > > One thing both of those lists do that this one might consider, is that a > > bracketed ID of the list is added to each subject line (after the "Re:" > > if there is one). So I can filter for [LMB] or for [Searoom], and get > > them sorted out and lined up. Maybe this list could add [SKZB] to the > > subject line, as I have done on this message. > This is an excellent suggestion, and something we do with the > SquirrelMail mailing lists, too. > We could easily use [Dragaera], [Dragaera-RPG], and [Dragaera-Read] > or some shortened versions thereof to label the lists (or the ones > I've kept track of). We had this discussion when the list was created already. I will summarize my contribution: "Oh God Please No." -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From rick at 404.978.org Fri Nov 29 18:17:21 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:17:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Straw Poll about Reply-to In-Reply-To: References: <49901.209.245.99.167.1038602396.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: <50758.209.245.99.167.1038622641.squirrel@404.978.org> Mark A Mandel said: > On Fri, 29 Nov 2002, Rick Castello wrote: > > # > # I'm the project lead for the SquirrelMail webmail project, > > Ah, webmail. Nice app if you can get it. See my previous post about why > I (am practically forced to) use text-only command-line email. When I connect from my office (most of the time, these days), I also use dialup. Works like a charm. The interface has less than 20k of images, I'd say, and they're all cacheable. I have a friend who connects to his ISP via dialup in Spain and still has low latency and finds it very usable. Want a mail account? ;) -Rick From mam at theworld.com Fri Nov 29 18:19:03 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:19:03 -0500 Subject: Turkey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: How nice to be talking on this list, off-topic and not about the list or religion! (I have opted out of the latter topic here entirely). On 29 Nov 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: #Mia McDavid writes: # #> For me, the be-all and end-all is a free-range, fresh-killed (and I #> don't mean "fresh" as in has had ice crystals in its gizzard for two #> weeks) turkey, which I *finally* scored in the Twin Cities!!! # #My mother and sister used a fresh, free-range turkey this year, and it #came out very well. Much more expensive, of course. I'm not at all #sure it was worth it. We had a kosher turkey, of course (since we keep kosher)... #> Oyster dressing has a very creditable source; I found it in Joy of #> Cooking. Of course, anyone who doesn't like oysters shouldn't go #> there... ... and, likewise of course, no oyster stuffing! Alas, I was able to partake only in moderation. Tuesday evening, pains in my middle took me to the ER. They found EKG normal but admitted me, and diagnosed a pancreas inflamed by a gallstone and ordered Nothing By Mouth and Stay For Observation. Bleah. So I spent Wednesday in bed with an IV drip and somewhat dopey. Thursday, at least, I was well enough for my sister, up for the day, to spring me from the joint. (As my wife had said to them, "You DON'T want my sister-in-law on your case!") So I went very light on the meal. But the white meat, the squash stuffed w vegetable ragout for our vegetarian daughter, and Nana's egg custard made a great meal. Oh, and definitely something to be thankful for. I said shehecheyanu before the meal as well as hamotzi; that is, as well as thanking God for bread (and by extension all the rest of the meal), the blessing for "keeping us in life, and preserving us, and bringing us to this time". -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From feaelin at kemenel.org Fri Nov 29 18:19:58 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 20:19:58 -0600 Subject: Holy War of Reply-To Munging Message-ID: > In my experience, the more technically adept the members So your desire is to restrict the discussion about Brust's fiction to the technically adept? > of a list > are, the more likely they are to do things *this* way, > that is, NOT > to munge the reply-to headers. Yes, some lists of geeks munge > headers. Many do not. I think you're making huge assumptions about the configurations of lists. Without some effort of surveying "all" (which is probably not worthwhile) lists in existance, I wouldn't be bold enough to say that either configuration had the "many" or "majority" position. :) > Sourceforge.net hosts THOUSANDS of mailing lists- their policy is > not to munge. That's not necessarily an indicator...Yahoo! Groups probably has lists in the "thousands", and the Reply-To is configurable, I'm sure the other providers of similar services are similarly configuraable. Additionally, Sourceforge's intended audience is different from that of a fan-list. Hmm. Also, with sourceforge, you have to be careful not to confuse "forum" with "mailing list". They provide _both_, and the forums have "subscription" functionality, which send you copies of the posts to those forums you subscribe...which you can't reply to at all >from your mailer. Even more obnoxious than the reply-to of this list (to the point that I only monitor those discussions, because it requires too much time and effort for me to reply). However, I can see why you wanted to comment on "how many do it this way or that". Because I appeared to be. My intent was to indicate not "how many lists in the world do this way" but how many that *I* have to deal with. Since I have to make a "mental exception" for this list, I have _often_ not replied, or aborted a reply, because a) I'm often in a hurry when doing e-mail and b) I instinctively used "reply" instead of "reply-to-all" and simply gave up, because it exceeded my effort/time level. *chuckle*. Then again, you may regard that as a "feature", that'd be less noise from me! ;) > To those who say that sending replies to sender instead > of munging > wastes bandwidth: We're supposed to be intelligent, > learning beings. > We've got opposable thumbs, and can have flame-free > discussions on > religion. Remembering something THIS BASIC is NOT HARD, folks. Why should I have to remember it? The point of computing is to make it _easier_, not harder. It's to make it _faster_, not slower. > Think of it this way... the mailing list isn't a person, it's a Umm....I hope no one thinks of the list as a person. :) :) ;) > way to facilitate mail delivery within a topic. As with personal > email, when you hit reply, your email will be sent to But...it's not personal e-mail. If I want to have a discussion with you personally...I would initiate one. To have the "default" be the what I do least is counter to usability. :). It'd be interesting to see the results of a list that the reply-to was configurable on a per user basis.., e.g., for you, it'd be sent with the author of the message as a reply-to, for me, it'd be "dragaera at dragaera.info" (Hmm...Dragaera is interesting to type on the laptop). I suspect that it would dramatically compound the problem, since no one would have any consistent guide as to how the list was working. :) > the *person* > who sent the email you're replying to, not the delivery system. > (Yes, it's more complex than that, and no, I'm not going > to go into > the workings of SMTP and the like. Close enough.) > It's really not hard to remember gang, and DDB's right. If you > accidentally reply to sender instead of the list, it's ONE email > inconveniening two people, the sender and the recipient. The > sender has to resend to list, and the recipient will get an > extra copy of the message. .... > Other way around: You slip for a message meant for DDB alone, > and inconvenience the whole list, wasting a lot more bandwidth, > and possibly embarrassing yourself or DDB or both with the > contents of your hero worship mail. This is possibly a qualitative vs. quantitive issue. If you only ever have an equal number of instances of both "errors" then I would agree with you. However, I don't believe that to be the case. It's my belief that the majority of "replies" are back to the list. Of course, since I largely only have myself to judge acurrately, I could be completely wrong in that belief. Assuming my belief is true, having the reply-to set to the sender rather than the list, adds extra work and effort to the majority to save the few from "forgetting" and making a mistake. Which brings me to this quote from your message (moved out of order for effect): > If your memory is REALLY that bad, put a post-it note on your > monitor frame. Good idea. :) > Go one step further. Some putz puts a "vacation" autoresponder > on their email address, responding to EVERY message they get for > the week they're not checking their mail. Every message goes to > the list, and causes a mail loop. Bad Juju. (Yes, many smart > mailing list packages have patches to avoid this... but just as > not all email clients aren't smart enough to handle "reply to > list," so are not all mailing lists able to handle loops. > If we're catering to mediocrity, we'd best do so on both sides.) I'm not sure this is relevant. It's bringing in a completely separate issue: Do's and Don'ts of auto-responder/vacation replies. And nearly in the same breath, you present the correct solution to the problem. Either change the list-processor to prevent e-mail loops of the type you describe, or replace it with one that does. :) There are other causes of mail loops (misconfigured SMTP servers come to mind) besides vacation replies. :) Also, adding a patch or modification to a _server_ to improve functionality is preferable to forcing users to use your idea of the "correct mailer" to achieve that same functionality. If it is possible to fix a problem at the server, it is likely that it should be. :) From mam at theworld.com Fri Nov 29 18:20:12 2002 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:20:12 -0500 Subject: Turkey In-Reply-To: <3DE7D31D.5040805@attbi.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Nov 2002, Mia McDavid wrote: #Actually, a 19-lb bird, plus two sets of feet, was under $40. I thought #that was quite reasonable. YMMV. Everybody knows a missile and some turkey toes Help to make the season bright... (ttto part of "The Christmas Song", aka "Chestnuts roasting on an open fire") -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname http://world.std.com/~mam/filk.html From rick at 404.978.org Fri Nov 29 18:21:14 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:21:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: [SKZB] Straw Poll about Reply-to (was: Damiano's Lute) In-Reply-To: <20021130015711.GL13958@infodancer.org> References: <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <3DE3D5C6.7090107@attbi.com> <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127153459.00a5b510@dd-b.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20021129194811.01d92680@pop.east.cox.net> <50601.209.245.99.167.1038618797.squirrel@404.978.org> <20021130015711.GL13958@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <50770.209.245.99.167.1038622874.squirrel@404.978.org> Matthew Hunter said: > On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 08:13:17PM -0500, Rick Castello > wrote: >> We could easily use [Dragaera], [Dragaera-RPG], and >> [Dragaera-Read] or some shortened versions thereof to label the >> lists (or the ones I've kept track of). > > We had this discussion when the list was created already. > > I will summarize my contribution: "Oh God Please No." I'm all for conserving bandwidth/screen space, but do those few bytes/pixels make that big a difference for you? -Rick From feaelin at kemenel.org Fri Nov 29 18:25:29 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 20:25:29 -0600 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark A Mandel [mailto:mam at theworld.com] > I have a slow dialup connection, so I do my email and Me too. I suffer horribly... :). Potentially fortunately, I have internet access at work, so I usually do "mail" there. The downside of that being I'm horribly "rushed" when reading and replying, so any extra steps are still problematic. :) From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Nov 29 18:09:56 2002 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 20:09:56 -0600 Subject: [SKZB] Straw Poll about Reply-to (was: Damiano's Lute) In-Reply-To: <50770.209.245.99.167.1038622874.squirrel@404.978.org> References: <01KPCAYQG5YA000JK5@chud.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127144143.00a8bd90@dd-b.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20021127153459.00a5b510@dd-b.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20021129194811.01d92680@pop.east.cox.net> <50601.209.245.99.167.1038618797.squirrel@404.978.org> <20021130015711.GL13958@infodancer.org> <50770.209.245.99.167.1038622874.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: <20021130020956.GM13958@infodancer.org> On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 09:21:14PM -0500, Rick Castello wrote: > Matthew Hunter said: > > On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 08:13:17PM -0500, Rick Castello > > wrote: > >> We could easily use [Dragaera], [Dragaera-RPG], and > >> [Dragaera-Read] or some shortened versions thereof to label the > >> lists (or the ones I've kept track of). > > We had this discussion when the list was created already. > > I will summarize my contribution: "Oh God Please No." > I'm all for conserving bandwidth/screen space, but do those > few bytes/pixels make that big a difference for you? When it's entirely pointless? Yes. Sort by a separate header into an individual folder. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From RuhlenR at missouri.edu Fri Nov 29 18:33:54 2002 From: RuhlenR at missouri.edu (Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student)) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 20:33:54 -0600 Subject: Intro and ummmm...stuff Message-ID: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E01245543@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> > -----Original Message----- > From: Lady Qryz [mailto:ladyqryz at hotmail.com] > Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 9:53 AM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Intro and ummmm...stuff > > > Hail and well met! > > Having now perused all 8642 messages posted in the month of > November, I'll > say the following: > > 1) I agree with most recommendations for beginning books, and > would include > Jane Langton's _The Swing in the Summerhouse_ and _The Diamond in the > Window_. The latter has Ralph Waldo Emerson running all > through it! Also > Alan Garner (Weirdstone of Brisingamen, Elidor). Eager, > Nesbit, LeGuin, > L'Engle and yes, Dahl, are all great young adult books. > Whatever happens, > do NOT allow children to read Dahl's adult work, which is > wicked and quite > funny and they absolutely don't deserve *weg*. > > My dad says I was born reading - I finished all LoTR before I > was 8, got > obsessed with vampires when I was 10 (thus my first training as a > researcher) and read _The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich_ > TWICE in the > summer of my 6th grade year because yes, I was really bored. > As Steve says, > its not what we read that sets us apart, its that we read at all. > > 2) Liver is good, but only in a nice pate. > > 3) The One True Stuffing is Mrs. Cubbisons, with a pinch of > Pepperidge Farm > thrown in. The Only Acceptable Additions are celery and > water chestnuts. > After 15 years, the family still argues about the celery. > > 4) I like to read in total silence so nothing interferes > with the movie in > my head. > > 5) As Queen of the Universe and Goddess (Acting), who am I > to deny the > possibility of other deities? > > Do carry on. > > Qryz Hm. No mention made of reply to preferences, which had to have formed a significant portion of November's messages! And, no mention made of Dragaera. But that's not unusual in most of the messages lately. Rachel From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Nov 29 18:26:27 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 18:26:27 -0800 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129182443.02cda230@localhost> At 01:23 PM 11/29/2002 -0400, Alex Nixon wrote: >My problem is not with his questioning of religion's place in our society. >It is with the anger and resentment he expresses towards it. >Given that religion isn't going away anytime soon, I feel it would be more >productive to continue to question its importance, but do so with a lot >less hostility. Oh, Feh. What you're reading as hostility is simply passion. And I, for one, think that if one is not passionate about a discussion, the discussion stops being fun. No one has introduced personalities, we've all just been expression strong opinions about things we all feel are very important. What's wrong with that? From feaelin at kemenel.org Fri Nov 29 18:41:55 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 20:41:55 -0600 Subject: Straw Poll about Reply-to Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Castello > > elitest at best, and discriminatory, at worst. > > Elitist? Discriminatory? > > Them's fightin' words. :) > Your claims are unfounded, and rude. I discussed the merits of > compliant mail tools. Where was I beling elitist? You're right. They are fighting words, and that it was rude. I am sorry I said those words. I believe I got carried away. While your comments may have made me feel that way, I should not have reacted in the manner that I did. My apologies. > There are public free services that aren't borked. Rich > has nothing Locale has a great deal do with it. Some of the public-browsing facilities are sometimes restrictive as to what websites you can access, and if you can't afford a provider at home, but wish to participate, you're stuck using those facilities, for good or ill. Your implication that those people that are having problems with the configuration "should get a better mailer" (I realize that this is not what you _said_, but it is what it sounds like you're saying), is...perhaps unkind to those who are in that situation? I don't feel it is appropiate to assume that all those that have something to contribute have either the technical ability to reconfigure their mailers, have access (by whatever means) to better mailers, etc. I _think_ that the only safe assumption about the participants of a mailing list that a) they're interested in the topic of the list and b) they have access to e-mail in _some_ form. From feaelin at kemenel.org Fri Nov 29 18:44:56 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 20:44:56 -0600 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" Message-ID: > Oddly, I still didn't receive two copies. It may have to do > with the way I have my mail-sorting filters setup, OR, since > I use my work's corporately managed mail system, it's > possible the duplicate was intercepted at the higher level. Hmm. Okay, now I've experienced the effect. Odd that it appears to be inconsistent. I guess I should look for copies of this stuff in some "junk" folder. :) From feaelin at kemenel.org Fri Nov 29 18:46:26 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 20:46:26 -0600 Subject: Straw Poll about Reply-to Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Davis, Iain E. > Ah.. So your position on this matter is influenced by your > desire to promote your product. :) Upon reflection, this may have been rude. Apologies again. Rick, I seem to be picking on you today. :) :) :) From feaelin at kemenel.org Fri Nov 29 18:48:08 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 20:48:08 -0600 Subject: Straw Poll about Reply-to Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Davis, Iain E. > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Davis, Iain E. > > > Ah.. So your position on this matter is influenced by your > > desire to promote your product. :) > > Upon reflection, this may have been rude. Apologies again. > Rick, I seem to be picking on you today. :) :) :) Which is probably all that repressed "family stress" coming out. It is the day after thanksgiving, after all. :) Oh dear, now I'm talking to myself on the list. :). Recommend some good help, anyone? From jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca Fri Nov 29 18:14:19 2002 From: jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca (James and Mary Burbidge) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:14:19 -0500 Subject: The Religion Debate References: <00b901c296d0$56a1bf40$2b20d118@neo.rr.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20021128050520.02989150@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20021128234509.02cbd190@localhost> Message-ID: <3DE81EFB.1C3A8DCF@sympatico.ca> Steven Brust wrote: > > > Well, sure. And then I stop disagreeing with them. Remember, I'm not > denying the existence of god; I'm denying that there is a god outside of > the realm of ideas. I'm denying a world in which the laws of nature do not > operate, or can be suspended. If you want to take some aspect or aspects > of the material world and label them "God" then I might wonder why you > bother, but I certainly won't dispute it. > It has been argued -- with a good deal of historical support -- that it was the Christian model of a God who was both creator and good which allowed the development of a view of the world as operating according to stable laws, which was a critical prerequisite for the development of experimental science. The Greeks (mainly) lacked an experimantal methodology because they didn't believe that the world _signified_ anything, and that it was therefore far more important to think about things apart from the material world. This isn't merely an issue in Plato, but also in Aristotle. Less developed sets of belief didn't tend to view tbe powers (whatever they were) as particularly benevolent, and therefore the effects of nature were seen as capricious -- they might be totally different tomorrow at a deity's whim. The philosophical schools of the middle ages, especially after the rejection of Averroism (the view that there were "two truths" which need not be in agreement, philosophical truth and revealed truth) supported the view that the world was ordered and predictable, and that God wouldn't change it (because he was good), and that matter and the world was _important_ (because of the doctrine of the incarnation). They thus provided the necessary context for attempts to investigate the physical world in a systematic, experimental manner. If the nature of the world as determined by experiment differed from what one thought it would be based on revelation, then the interpretation of revelation was wrong, and had to be adjusted accordingly. In that particular context, suspensions of the laws of nature -- miracles -- were seen precisely as _exceptions_, and very rare exceptions at that, which meant that they could be excluded from the areas which one was trying to investigate. Even if a miracle did occur, because it _wasn't_ related to cause and effect it would end up showing up as experimental error (so it wouldn't corrupt one's experimental findings too much). (This is why there's a methodological problem with Hume's argument regarding miracles: if they're already defined as grossly unlikely, then one can't use their unlikeliness as a way of deciding against them -- it's a _metabasis eis allo genos_.) -- James Burbidge jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca From jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca Fri Nov 29 18:46:44 2002 From: jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca (James and Mary Burbidge) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:46:44 -0500 Subject: The Religion Debate References: <200211291750.gATHo3mN007926@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <3DE82694.E84A6E7B@sympatico.ca> Frank Mayhar wrote: > > Lydia Nickerson wrote: > > The books don't exist by themselves, they were written by human > > beings, often for somewhat venal reasons. Was it Jeremiah that was > > written to justify the new line of kings and the changes in the > > religious structure? Joshua and Judges were written to prove that > > the Israelites were entitled to the land they'd stolen from the > > Canaanites. The Gospels were written as propaganda to prove that > > Christ was the Messiah, and tell several flat out whoppers to > > accomplish that. > > Yes, and most often this stuff was written _after_ the fact, particularly > the NT. Most of which was written, when, ca 100 AD? The only thing that late might be the book of Revelation. Normal dating of the various NT books runs from about 49 CE (Paul's earliest epistles) to the '90s, with Mark being sometime in the 60's, Matthew shortly after 70 CE, Luke a little after that, and John questionable, but usually considered about the 80's, not later than the '90s (the earliest NT papyrus is a fragment of John, and comes from Egypt c. 120 CE; if you allow for time for dissemination and copying >from its point of origin (probably Ephesus) it can't be significantly later than the '90s. The Johannine corpus is the only one which contains a _claim_ to be eye-witness (apart from II Peter, which is almost certainly pseudonymous and late), but many of the texts probably (and certainly all of Paul's epistles) were written in whole or in large part by people who knew eye-witnesses. They weren't written to the standards of a modern-day historian, but as general source texts for the period they're as close to their sources as most texts from the period are (Tacitus, Josephus (an eye-witness for only part of his history), Plutarch, etc.). Their reliability as sources for Christian belief is another matter, usually said to be "outside the scope of the historian". These estimates are debated. I've seen plausible arguments against the general consensus that the books might be earlier; I've seen few plausible arguments that they might be later. The history of dating in the last century and a bit has been that dates were gradually pushed earlier against a good deal of resistance, and they thus err on the side of late rather than early, if at all. This is especially true when one considers that much of the contents were almost certainly in existence as separate pericopes and other texts prior to their final redaction as the texts we have today. I won't get into the very long and complicated debate about exactly why the gospels were written -- i.e. the exact aims of the Christian kerygma -- or about the level of reliability (I can refer anyone who's interested to Sander's _Jesus and Judaism_ as a good approach to it) but I will note that most research I've seen from the last half-century or so is rather dubious about the existence as a pre-existing slot of the concept of Messiah in the middle of the First Century CE toward which the gospellers distorted the picture; there was certainly a general role in popular belief, but it doesn't seem to have had a great deal of determinate content, and it was not (outside of Christianity) linked up at all strongly with the other major titles like "Son of Man" (bar e'Nasa) recorded in the NT. The various OT books were almost certainly written too _late_ to have the aims Lydia attributes to them; by the time the books of Joshua and Judges were assembled, the question of entitlement to the land had been dead for several centuries. About Jeremiah, she's at least half-right -- Jeremiah (the person) is associated with a particular strong view regarding the law and the covenant (what we would now call the Deuteronomic one) and the book was assembled (quite possibly by Baruch) very close to the time it describes. -- James Burbidge jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca From feaelin at kemenel.org Fri Nov 29 18:49:57 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 20:49:57 -0600 Subject: [SKZB] Straw Poll about Reply-to (was: Damiano's Lute) Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Matthew Hunter [mailto:matthew at infodancer.org] > Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 7:57 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: [SKZB] Straw Poll about Reply-to (was: Damiano's Lute) > > > On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 08:13:17PM -0500, Rick Castello > wrote: > > Peter H. Granzeau said: > > > I'm only on two other lists. > > > One thing both of those lists do that this one might consider, is > > > that a bracketed ID of the list is added to each subject line > > > (after the "Re:" if there is one). So I can filter for [LMB] or > > > for [Searoom], and get them sorted out and lined up. Maybe this > > > list could add [SKZB] to the subject line, as I have > done on this > > > message. > > This is an excellent suggestion, and something we do with the > > SquirrelMail mailing lists, too. > > We could easily use [Dragaera], [Dragaera-RPG], and > [Dragaera-Read] > > or some shortened versions thereof to label the lists > (or the ones > > I've kept track of). > > We had this discussion when the list was created already. > > I will summarize my contribution: "Oh God Please No." On this note, I have a question. Does the list-processor make this optional on a per user basis? Some of the other lists I am on do, (typically defaulting to "off"). I confess that I'm too lazy to go query the listserv itself. ;) From rick at 404.978.org Fri Nov 29 18:53:13 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:53:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: Holy War of Reply-To Munging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50795.209.245.99.167.1038624793.squirrel@404.978.org> Davis, Iain E. said: >> In my experience, the more technically adept the members > > So your desire is to restrict the discussion about Brust's fiction to > the technically adept? My point is exactly what I said. *In my experience* those that understand, don't munge. I wouldn't restrict a thing. To suggest that I would is namecalling, not debate. >> of a list >> are, the more likely they are to do things *this* way, >> that is, NOT >> to munge the reply-to headers. Yes, some lists of geeks munge >> headers. Many do not. > > I think you're making huge assumptions about the configurations of > lists. Without some effort of surveying "all" (which is probably not > worthwhile) lists in existance, I wouldn't be bold enough to say that > either configuration had the "many" or "majority" position. :) I never said majority, I said many. If you disagree that thousands qualify as "many", that's something else entirely. I didn't even claim a plurality, though I'd *hope* that's the case. >> Sourceforge.net hosts THOUSANDS of mailing lists- their policy is >> not to munge. > > That's not necessarily an indicator...Yahoo! Groups probably has lists > in the "thousands", and the Reply-To is configurable, I'm sure the other > providers of similar services are similarly configuraable. Ahh... I get upbraided for "many", but you're "sure" about all other providers that are not equal to Yahoo! Groups? Presumptuous, aren't we? > Additionally, Sourceforge's intended audience is different from that of > a fan-list. Hmm. Also, with sourceforge, you have to be careful not to > confuse "forum" with "mailing list". They provide _both_, and the > forums have "subscription" functionality, which send you copies of the > posts to those forums you subscribe...which you can't reply to at all > from your mailer. Even more obnoxious than the reply-to of this list > (to the point that I only monitor those discussions, because it requires > too much time and effort for me to reply). I am well aware of the difference between the two, and again speak of their mailing lists, of which I am an admin of many well familiar. > However, I can see why you wanted to comment on "how many do it this way > or that". Because I appeared to be. My intent was to indicate not "how > many lists in the world do this way" but how many that *I* have to deal > with. Since I have to make a "mental exception" for this list, I have > _often_ not replied, or aborted a reply, because a) I'm often in a hurry > when doing e-mail and b) I instinctively used "reply" instead of > "reply-to-all" and simply gave up, because it exceeded my effort/time > level. *chuckle*. Then again, you may regard that as a "feature", > that'd be less noise from me! ;) It's only noise when you're incorrectly attributing ideas and claims to me that I do not hold or make. The rest is just discussion. :) >> Go one step further. Some putz puts a "vacation" autoresponder >> on their email address, responding to EVERY message they get for >> the week they're not checking their mail. Every message goes to >> the list, and causes a mail loop. Bad Juju. (Yes, many smart >> mailing list packages have patches to avoid this... but just as >> not all email clients aren't smart enough to handle "reply to >> list," so are not all mailing lists able to handle loops. >> If we're catering to mediocrity, we'd best do so on both sides.) > > I'm not sure this is relevant. It's bringing in a completely separate > issue: Do's and Don'ts of auto-responder/vacation replies. > And nearly in the same breath, you present the correct solution to the > problem. Either change the list-processor to prevent e-mail loops of > the type you describe, or replace it with one that does. :) It's merely another example of why reply-to munging is dangerous. Same issue, another supporting point for my argument. > There are other causes of mail loops (misconfigured SMTP servers come to > mind) besides vacation replies. :) I wouldn't dream of disagreeing with you there, and never claimed different... I'm not sure this is relevant. ;) > Also, adding a patch or modification to a _server_ to improve > functionality is preferable to forcing users to use your idea of the > "correct mailer" to achieve that same functionality. If it is possible > to fix a problem at the server, it is likely that it should be. :) I didn't say correct, I said compliant. :) -Rick From feaelin at kemenel.org Fri Nov 29 18:55:26 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 20:55:26 -0600 Subject: [SKZB] Straw Poll about Reply-to (was: Damiano's Lute) Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Castello [mailto:rick at 404.978.org] > Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 8:21 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: [SKZB] Straw Poll about Reply-to (was: Damiano's Lute) > > > Matthew Hunter said: > > On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 08:13:17PM -0500, Rick Castello > > wrote: > >> We could easily use [Dragaera], [Dragaera-RPG], and > >> [Dragaera-Read] or some shortened versions thereof to > label the lists > >> (or the ones I've kept track of). > > > > We had this discussion when the list was created already. > > > > I will summarize my contribution: "Oh God Please No." > > I'm all for conserving bandwidth/screen space, but do those > few bytes/pixels make that big a difference for you? On many (I started to say "normal", but decided I was making assumptions about what was normal. :) ) systems, I bet it doesn't. However...I can relate an experience I had recently that may shed some light: I'm on a list that I'm way behind on reading. I thought to myself "how about I synchronize my Palm with that folder, instead of the "inbox", so I can have all that mail on my palm to read, whereever I may be?". Unfortunately, the list's [name] tag in the subject header made it impossible to read messages selectively by subject...because on the palm display, the only part of the subject that displayed was the [name] tag, or sometimes not even the whole thing. :) I think I'll go see if the list-processor supports configuring this on a "by user" basis. Both on this list, and possibly on that list. Hmm...That, and perhaps look for a different "mail client" for my palm. Hopefully it'll be free. :) From jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca Fri Nov 29 18:58:11 2002 From: jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca (James and Mary Burbidge) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:58:11 -0500 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) References: Message-ID: <3DE82943.4C75F50@sympatico.ca> Mark A Mandel wrote: > > On 29 Nov 2002, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > #It's been suggested that mail clients implement "reply to sender" as > #yet another workaround. However, the easiest solution is simply to > #implement the RFC defining message headers giving posting, subscribe, > #and unsubscribe addresses. I know Pegasus mail imlements that one, > #for example. Then you can click on a button to do the precise thing > #you want. > > You have buttons? > > I have a slow dialup connection, so I do my email and newsgroups through > a tty-emulation text-only connection, using pine and tin. In order to > send this reply to the list I had to answer affirmatively to pine's > question "reply to all?", which I have set to default to "no", which is > appropriate for most non-list mail. If I had forgotten to do that when > starting the reply, my only clue that I was replying off-list would be > negative: the absence of The obvious solution is to drop pine and tin and use emacs as a mail client (emacs uses proper termcap updating, so it shouldn't flood your connection). Then you can do a one-time adjustment via elisp for replying to this list and you're away free. Along the lines of the religion thread: M-x all-hail-emacs. -- James Burbidge jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca From RuhlenR at missouri.edu Fri Nov 29 19:00:36 2002 From: RuhlenR at missouri.edu (Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student)) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:00:36 -0600 Subject: Dragaera & kids Message-ID: <927E1B4A3F8CAB48B854D808E001BD2E0CEBBD@col-mailnode04.col.missouri.edu> Related to all the discussion about kids' fantasy literature, this question is directed to experts in child development & education (ie, parents...ok, not really, but whatever). What age or developmental stage (please describe) is a kid ready for which Dragaera books? Oddly enough these books have been one of the few things that both my husband & I enjoy & discuss...you might even say they strengthen that relationship (bet you never expected that from your books, Mr. Brust! and our other common interest is Star Trek, although we like different things about that...I like Spock, Picard & the males on _Enterprise_ while he likes Dax, Topal & Hoshi) but our daughter feels left out naturally enough (she watches _Next Gen_ with us). I know she's too young now (she just started chapter books; she's 7) but how long do you suppose we have before she can join in? Rachel From dar at horusinc.com Fri Nov 29 19:03:09 2002 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:03:09 -0600 Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. In-Reply-To: <004401c297c7$7d62aca0$2b20d118@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: > From: "David Rodemaker" > > What if the analogy is more along the lines of the individual who made a > > wildlife preserve? > > the big problem with this analogy, and unfortunately all such > analogies seem > to have a big problem, is that one who makes a wildlife preserve isn't > responsible for the existence of predation and death, as a hypothetical > deity would be, unless one posits a weak deity who isn't > responsible for the > way the unverse is run, in which case we find ourselves wondering who or > what placed limitations on it. Why do you posit that predation and death is *bad*??? David From dar at horusinc.com Fri Nov 29 19:03:10 2002 From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:03:10 -0600 Subject: Agnostic definition... or not. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > What if the analogy is more along the lines of the individual who > > made a wildlife preserve? > Don't change the analogy (Please) a cosmic god creating us is plenty > different than us boxing in a few animals and having nothing to do with > their creation on a fundamental level. Cosmic does not mean good, or evil, cosmic would tend to imply beyond such human distinctions. > > Creatures live, die, kill, love, etc all along perfectly natural > > lines. > right and starting a wildlife preserve would only be interfering with that > order, ususally to protect a weaker species from predators. My bad, How about a National Park? Or Nature Highway? Take your pick of natural area to be preserved in pristine natural wonder, with all the bloodletting that goes about in such... David From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Nov 29 18:46:46 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 18:46:46 -0800 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <20021129163504.72009.qmail@web12705.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129000056.02c010b0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129182742.02da0c00@localhost> At 08:35 AM 11/29/2002 -0800, Andrew McGuigan wrote: >--- Steven Brust wrote: > > > Why do we love each > > >other in the abscense of children? > > > > I'm not sure what this means. > >Well, I've heard from some people that "love" is an >evolutionary survivial mechanism to insure parental >bonding, which in turn helps progeny to survive. Oh. I hadn't heard that. In any case, I certainly don't know enough about it have an opinion. And I never express opinions on subjects I don't know anything about between 6 and 7 on Friday evenings. > > >I guess you would not agree with the phrase >"Co-incidence is God's way of remaining anonymous?" :) That would be a "no" > >Ok, well then we are arguing over different things. I >was arguing that "religion" was not shrinking, and >thus it made sense that it would exist in the far >future, as opposed to "God" shrinking. Correct. "Religion" shrinking refers to number of people who are religious. Since the population is increasing, and since people here are coming up with whacky definitions of what "religion" means, I don't see how to answer that (and it isn't a subject that intrusts me). I'm saying that the domain over which the superhuman and supernatural has control tends to get smaller as man's knowledge increases. From unitcancellation at hotmail.com Fri Nov 29 19:13:04 2002 From: unitcancellation at hotmail.com (Alex Nixon) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 23:13:04 -0400 Subject: The Religion Debate Message-ID: *Alex shrugs a few times to express his indifference* I feel hostility. Again, I like passion and strong opinons and the questioning of it all. I just don't like hostility, and that's what I feel expressed at some points. It's alright. I'm just stating what I see. Furthermore, if I'm mistaken, then of course I will apologize to all involved- we Canadians are nothing if not polite. Ironically (or not...), I'm reading your Sun, Moon and Stars right now. It's pretty good so far. When it's all said and done, I may call it great. Either way, it's a neat story and incredible narrative structure. Props to you. Alex ----Original Message Follows---- From: Steven Brust To: "Alex Nixon" , rsuitor at cjwrfs.net, dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: The Religion Debate Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 18:26:27 -0800 At 01:23 PM 11/29/2002 -0400, Alex Nixon wrote: >My problem is not with his questioning of religion's place in our society. >It is with the anger and resentment he expresses towards it. >Given that religion isn't going away anytime soon, I feel it would be more >productive to continue to question its importance, but do so with a lot >less hostility. Oh, Feh. What you're reading as hostility is simply passion. And I, for one, think that if one is not passionate about a discussion, the discussion stops being fun. No one has introduced personalities, we've all just been expression strong opinions about things we all feel are very important. What's wrong with that? _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From feaelin at kemenel.org Fri Nov 29 19:16:41 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:16:41 -0600 Subject: Holy War of Reply-To Munging Message-ID: > Davis, Iain E. said: > >> In my experience, the more technically adept the members > > > > So your desire is to restrict the discussion about Brust's > fiction to > > the technically adept? > To suggest > that I would is namecalling, not debate. Darnit, I thought I had been rude somewhere else, but couldn't find it. Thank you for pointing it out. :). Should I re-iterate my apology? :) > My point is exactly what I said. *In my experience* those that > understand, don't munge. I wouldn't restrict a thing. > I never said majority, I said many. If you disagree > that thousands > qualify as "many", that's something else entirely. I didn't even > claim a plurality, though I'd *hope* that's the case. You're right, I disagree that "thousands" is "many". But that is a purely subjective thing...that's an entirely different discussion...one my wife and I have fought over before: "But But a few is a "small" number!, no more than 3-4!" "No, it's more like 6 or 7!" etc. I'm reminded of Heroes of might and Magic, which had very specific ranges for "few" "small" "many", a "pack", etc. I no longer remember the ranges, but I think "thousands" constituted a "throng". :). Of course, this was for measuring quantities of creatures. > >> Sourceforge.net hosts THOUSANDS of mailing lists- > their policy > >> is not to munge. > > > > That's not necessarily an indicator...Yahoo! Groups > probably has lists > > in the "thousands", and the Reply-To is configurable, I'm sure the > > other providers of similar services are similarly configuraable. > > Ahh... I get upbraided for "many", but you're "sure" about all > other providers that are not equal to Yahoo! Groups? Sorry, I didn't think that through. Or didn't think through what concept that I wanted to get across. ...And you correctly identify my faulty thinking in using the phrase "I'm sure"...when I was expressing an opinion rather than something I'm certain is fact. Personally, I find it more likely that sites abiding by a "standard" are going to be to be in the minority. I could certainly be wrong about that. :) > Presumptuous, aren't we? I think everyone would agree with that statement, for many reasons. Both with the meaning you intended (That *I* am presumptuous, for many different reasons), and other potentially humorous meanings. :) > I am well aware of the difference between the two, and again > speak of their mailing lists, of which I am an admin of many > well familiar. Hmm. If it sounded like I thought you weren't, or was assuming you were otherwise unknowledgable, that was not my intention. :) Oddly, while I'm "subscribed" to 3 of their forums, I'm not subscribed to any of the lists. I wonder if I should change that. :) > > effort/time level. *chuckle*. Then again, you may regard that as a > > "feature", that'd be less noise from me! ;) > > It's only noise when you're incorrectly attributing ideas and > claims to me that I do not hold or make. The rest is just > discussion. :) *grin*. I'll try to do better. (or worse? ;). To be honest, I debate badly...either due to lack of detachment or through impatience. :). So feel free to blame any faux pas (sp?) on my overall incompetence. :) > I didn't say correct, I said compliant. :) Hmm. Okay. :). It is hard for me to argue with you there, ideally, everything should be "standard compliant"...of course, on the other hand, the "standard" should provide all the functionality we desire. :) ...perhaps I missed a key item here. Is there a way (as defined in the relevant RFCs) for a message header to indicate that a) the message in question is a list message and b) discriminate between the real sender of the message, and the list-sender? So that a "standard compliant" mail client could provide a mechanism (button, key, menu option, voice command, whatever interface you prefer) that you could acurrately select your target (individual, the list, both, etc.) with a single click/keypress/command? That would certainly change my viewpoint. :) From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Nov 29 19:15:31 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 19:15:31 -0800 Subject: The Great Debate....to DDB In-Reply-To: References: <20021129172814.D4FF126E2C@boredom.ennui.org> <20021129172814.D4FF126E2C@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129191343.02c0e650@localhost> At 12:50 PM 11/29/2002 -0500, Claire Rojstaczer wrote: >I'll leave any possible parallels between this and religion to the >religious folk. Being an atheist, I'd just screw them up. But, you see, the parallels are what it's all about. On this subject, there isn't a lot of difference between, "I've only Father O'Brian all my life, and he's a good and wise man. He says God exists. That's enough for me." Isn't that faith, rather than thought? From feaelin at kemenel.org Fri Nov 29 19:19:06 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:19:06 -0600 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: James and Mary Burbidge > [mailto:jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca] > The obvious solution is to drop pine and tin and use emacs as > a mail client (emacs uses proper termcap updating, so it > shouldn't flood your connection). Then you can do a one-time > adjustment via elisp for replying to this list and you're away free. > > Along the lines of the religion thread: M-x all-hail-emacs. :). Oddly, while I prefer Emacs for writing program code, I feel unhappy when I use it for mail. :). Entirely a personal preference issue. From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Nov 29 19:19:56 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 22:19:56 -0500 Subject: Holy War of Reply-To Munging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <99629240-0412-11D7-9997-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Friday, November 29, 2002, at 10:16 PM, Davis, Iain E. wrote: > :) > > ...perhaps I missed a key item here. Is there a way (as defined in the > relevant RFCs) for a message header to indicate that a) the message in > question is a list message and b) discriminate between the real sender > of the message, and the list-sender? So that a "standard compliant" > mail client could provide a mechanism (button, key, menu option, voice > command, whatever interface you prefer) that you could acurrately > select > your target (individual, the list, both, etc.) with a single > click/keypress/command? > Man, am I glad I have a Mac :-) --- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds; and the pessimist fears this is true." -- James Branch Cabell From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Nov 29 19:26:18 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 19:26:18 -0800 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <20021129210429.908BD26E37@boredom.ennui.org> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129192403.02c23180@localhost> At 01:04 PM 11/29/2002 -0800, definitely what wrote: >David Dyer-Bennet writes: > Religion, by definition, asserts the existence of a non-material > world. There's no evidence for such a thing being real. > >Of course it isn't real. Otherwise, it wouldn't be non-material. > >This is the main problem with trying to prove the existence or >non-existence of God; he isn't "real" in a physical sense. And yet, >the fact that people believe in God proves he does exist, just as the >people who do not believe in God prove that he doesn't. It's very >quantum. No, it proves the *idea* of God exists. Just as the *idea* of a flying reptile who is the familiar of an assassin exists. I think the distinction between, "exists as an idea" and "exists objectively" is very, very, important. The latter is what we mean by "reality." From feaelin at kemenel.org Fri Nov 29 19:29:40 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:29:40 -0600 Subject: Dragaera & kids Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student) > Related to all the discussion about kids' fantasy literature, > this question is directed to experts in child development & > education (ie, parents...ok, not really, but whatever). What Not being an expert, I can't judge for others but for Helen, but I suspect the previously stated age would be fine (11). By feel, I think 8 or 9 would be too young, but I could be wrong. Changes in ability and interests are going to occur at a rapid rate, so it's hard to predict, yes? Hmm...help me out everyone: spelling: acurrate (1 'c', 2 'r's?) and occur: 2 'c's 1 'r'? > age or developmental stage (please describe) is a kid ready > for which Dragaera books? Oddly enough these books have been > one of the few things that both my husband & I enjoy & > discuss...you might even say they strengthen that > relationship (bet you never expected that from your books, > Mr. Brust! ah Ha! There's a new advertising gimmick for Mr. Brust's publisher: "Buy the Dragaera books, it keeps family relationships healthy!". Er...maybe not. > although we like different things about that...I like Spock, > Picard & the males on _Enterprise_ while he likes Dax, Topal Er, that'd be T'Pal, I think. And...ahem, aren't you type-casting me? I'm certain there are other reasons I like Star Trek...no, really, just give me a minute, I'll think of them... Additionally, (to nitpick) I'd say I like "Jadzia" and "Ezri" rather than Dax. Slug-like creatures aren't that attractive, and the host before Jadzia was no prize (my POV), either. ;) > & Hoshi) but our daughter feels left out naturally enough Mmm. Hoshi. :> > (she watches _Next Gen_ with us). I know she's too young now > (she just started chapter books; she's 7) but how long do you > suppose we have before she can join in? Rachel I've wondered this about other books, and it's my opinion we'll have to just judge by what she is currently reading, and how difficult it is for her, etc. Later is probably better than earlier, a one of the joys in reading the Vlad novels is the humor, which may go over her head if she reads them too early. :) From feaelin at kemenel.org Fri Nov 29 19:30:58 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:30:58 -0600 Subject: Holy War of Reply-To Munging Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Turkel [mailto:zizban at adelphia.net] > > a single click/keypress/command? > > > Man, am I glad I have a Mac :-) Er, what? From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Nov 29 19:32:41 2002 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 22:32:41 -0500 Subject: Holy War of Reply-To Munging In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <619CB520-0414-11D7-9997-00039386187A@adelphia.net> On Friday, November 29, 2002, at 10:30 PM, Davis, Iain E. wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Chris Turkel [mailto:zizban at adelphia.net] >>> a single click/keypress/command? >>> >> Man, am I glad I have a Mac :-) > > Er, what? With the mil client I am using on my mac I don't have any of these problems y'all are describing :-) --- "It's a bad critic who tries to use fiction to psychoanalyze the author."---Orson Scott Card From feaelin at kemenel.org Fri Nov 29 19:33:41 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:33:41 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Steven Brust [mailto:skzb at dreamcafe.com] > Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 2:53 AM > To: Mark A Mandel; Julie Alipaz > Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth > > > At 08:17 PM 11/28/2002 -0500, Mark A Mandel wrote: > > > >All together, now, class: > > I before E, > > except after C > > or when pronounced "ay", > > as in "neighbor" and "weigh". > > > >(Or any other time that it's followed by "gh", as in "height" > > and in some other words that you just have to call exceptions, > > like "seize".) > > And don't forget weird, which is weird. Or does it follow a rule that's non-obvious? Mark? :) From feaelin at kemenel.org Fri Nov 29 19:37:37 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:37:37 -0600 Subject: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: David Dyer-Bennet [mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net] > Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 1:47 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Straw Poll about "Reply-to" (was: Damiano's Lute) > > > Tucker writes: > > > I'm a fan, but Eudora allows me to "Reply to all" and delete the > > sender's address so that it goes to the list. I've not seen a > > "Reply-to-list" list where "Reply to all" will catch both > the sender > > and the list addresses. > > > > (Of course, having said that, I nearly sent this off-list.) > > It's been suggested that mail clients implement "reply to > sender" as yet another workaround. However, the easiest > solution is simply to implement the RFC defining message > headers giving posting, subscribe, and unsubscribe addresses. > I know Pegasus mail imlements that one, for example. Then > you can click on a button to do the precise thing you want. Hmm. This appears to answer a question that I asked Rick (which makes me wish I had seen it earlier, but somehow I missed it...probably too busy harassing Rick. :) ). So there is a RFC that defines message header (hmm...I'm blocking on the term that belongs here) data that provides the information needed for a mail client to "discriminate" between the real sender and the list-processor? From calianng_graves at yahoo.com Fri Nov 29 19:40:14 2002 From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 19:40:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: <200211291803.gATI3u6k008055@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <20021130034014.12309.qmail@web21106.mail.yahoo.com> Frank Mayhar wrote: "Easy to ignore?" Where have _you_ been living? As for me, I have been living in SE Texas, which is the BUCKLE in the Bible Belt. Yes, I have had religion affect me negatively, especially the Christian religion. I *still* find it pretty easy to ignore 90% of the time. My family still sends me "God Loves You" based e-mails. I delete them. I learned long ago not to try to talk them out of sending them to me. Since religion is considered a faux pas topic of conversation out in the world, I have found it more than easy to ignore it in polite circles. In other circles, such as work, I have found even less of a reason to share my religious preferences as my sexual preferences. Work makes a sparkling conversation topic at work. As for being insulted by national figures on public television? Well, I have yet to take anything said on television personally. How can someone who does not know me insult me? Peace, Caliann *Owned and Operated by the Grand Poohbah Cheese of the Universe* "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now From feaelin at kemenel.org Fri Nov 29 19:40:44 2002 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Davis, Iain E.) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:40:44 -0600 Subject: A question re: Beginning Fantasy for Youth Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Davis, Iain E. > > > > > >All together, now, class: > > > I before E, > > > except after C > > > or when pronounced "ay", > > > as in "neighbor" and "weigh". > > > > > >(Or any other time that it's followed by "gh", as in "height" > > > and in some other words that you just have to call exceptions, > > > like "seize".) > > > > And don't forget weird, which is weird. > > Or does it follow a rule that's non-obvious? Mark? :) Hmm. After reflection, is "weird" "ei" because: it was earlier pronounced "wayrd"? Hmm. That looks weird. :> I'm probably wrong, but it is fun to speculate, yes? From rick at 404.978.org Fri Nov 29 19:44:05 2002 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 22:44:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Straw Poll about Reply-to In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4629.192.168.1.1.1038627845.squirrel@404.978.org> Davis, Iain E. said: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Davis, Iain E. > >> Ah.. So your position on this matter is influenced by your >> desire to promote your product. :) > > Upon reflection, this may have been rude. Apologies again. Rick, I > seem to be picking on you today. :) :) :) Those who enjoy debating don't last long with thin skins. :) I usually take offense more at being misunderstood or my thoughts misrepresented than at any "attacks" on me. No blood, no foul. Keep it clean, and get back in there! -Rick From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Nov 29 19:26:55 2002 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 19:26:55 -0800 Subject: Damiano's Lute In-Reply-To: <017e01c297a0$98896d60$197bd2d2@satyam.net.in> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20021127211557.026e3710@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20021129000056.02c010b0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021129192633.02d9e120@localhost> At 05:42 PM 11/29/2002 +0530, Divya wrote: >"Steven Brust" > > > Uh...I don't think anyone has disputed that. I was arguing for the > > Incredible Shrinking God. I don't think you can find anything in the last > > few hundred years og Buddhist or Hindu teachings to dispute that. I mean, > > the Hindu's are even getting away from the *caste* system, which was > > decreed by the gods in the first place. > >There is a small factual error in the last sentence: the caste system wasn't >decreed by the Gods-- even the most ancient sources known attribute the >origins of the caste system to the "first man", i.e., Manu. Not strictly >analogous to Adam, but close. I stand corrected. From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Fri Nov 29 19:46:52 2002 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 19:46:52 -0800 Subject: The Religion Debate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20021130034652.GA21041@ofb.net> On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 09:15:23PM -0400, Alex Nixon wrote: > That is in part why I'm not threatened by anyone's religion. The other > part is that I don't give a rat's ass about other people's beliefs, as long > as they don't get pissy with me over them. A fine attitude. But then beliefs enter politics. I haven't been discriminated against for lack of religion either, but I watch the news. Muslim riots in Nigeria against Miss World, Orthodox Zionists in Israel nattering about Judea and Samaria, evangelicals in the US supporting them because they think it's a sign of the Apocalypse (which they want), plus of course the basic reproductive-rights-of-women debates, and stem