Lydia wrote, and I hereby forward: At 02:20 PM 11/26/02 -0600, you (Mia) wrote: Frank, Since there is no *belief* involved in atheism, that means you've *proven* that there is no god? Neat trick if you can do it. You can't prove a negative. That's a basic tenet of logic. What, you don't think logic can be used? That means this discussion has to veer off into the relative, irrational, and the invisible -- exactly the ground that materialists don't believe in. It's obviously to the advantage of theists to try to move the argument there, but not very convincing. At the moment, I don't believe in small furry creatures >from Alpha Centauri, but show me one with sufficient bona fides, and I certainly will. Haul me up a God from out of the deep, with sufficient bona fides, and I'll believe in him, too. I'm quite catholic, that way. Lydia Nickerson lydy at demesne.com Dulciculi Aliquorum ...the relative, irrational, and the invisible -- exactly the ground that materialists don't believe in. Yeah, but it's still *there*, isn't it? The differences in our feelings, perceptions and personalities exist, whether they are material or explicable or quantifiable or not. DDB would probably argue that they are entirely the result of neurochemical activity in our brains, and that if they difffer sharply from the norm, we will someday be able to "correct" them. He would then remove from my personality the flaw that makes me feel supported by the love of God. Maybe, but he's speculating. He would say I'm speculating, too. No, I can't pick God up in my hands and bring him to you. And, I can't say; "At precisely 6:00 this evening, God will prove that he exists by writing "peace on earth" in the sky." I have experience of God that is entirely subjective, immaterial, and illogical, and I find it quite convincing. There's a famous quote that says "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." DDB has his own faith--similar to Asimov or Roddenberry, he seems to believe in the future of humankind, ever evolving toward something wiser and more rational. I find his faith quite as repellent as he finds mine. As to whose hopes will be rewarded, we just don't know yet, do we? Mia