Lydia Nickerson wrote: > At 12:33 AM -0600 11/28/02, Gametech wrote: >> David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >> <snip> >> >> however you lose the benefit of them believing >> other good things as a side affect of that belief > > This is religion's Big Lie. People can be moral and kind and decent > without the least bit of help from any supernatural source or belief. > I get this constantly. "How do you decide what's right and wrong, if > you don't believe in God?" Well, actually, roughly the way everybody > else does, if they were paying attention to the way they really live > their lives rather than how they think they live their lives. I > operate on the "if it hurts, I'm probably doing this wrong" > principal. Empathy is not a virtue instilled by religious practice; > it is something that is part of the normal experience of being human. > Wanting to prevent pain is one of the pillars of moral behavior. > Recognizing that one's behavior has consequences is another. Neither > one of these needs the least reference to the Invisible world. > What I was saying about losing the benefit of... was an argument why religion isn't all bad and does help some people towards positive things. I was in NO way saying people aren't capable of it without religion, not in the least. I was just stating that as a side affect of people believing in their religion they often practice positive values in their daily lives. >> >> What is so Awfully wrong about religion that counter's in it's >> entirety the good aspects of it? > > What does religion have to offer that I wasn't born with, already? I hesitate in answering that question because I don't really care if you believe in *a* religion, but I've been trying to keep the point that religion itself is not entirely or even mostly a bad thing based on the good it does. It's like anything else you can take it or leave it. Maybe Purpose? Something to dedicate their life to? There are people whom just aren't creative thinking, who need to follow others and who need to have "don't kill, be nice to strangers, take care of your body, etc." told to them, I think religion may symbolize hope to many people, you were born with the ability to hope but with no particular purpose. Also people subscribe to a certain religion because its core beliefs are similar to their own so it is a way of associating with people whom have some similar views. Religion is a very social thing I don't really see how it can correctly be compared to what it has that you didn't when you were born, it doesn't possess anything (avoid the obvious witty comment) it's more like a tool that is useful for as long as the wielder needs to learn the positive things and practice them for the rest of his/her life. I think I'm beginning to empathize with ddb's viewpoint, I fully disagree but I empathize most people don't have as healthy an attitude towards religion as I *think* I do and they do some really repugnant things based on their beliefs, they do good things too it doesn't make it okay they do some asinine things but it helps it's better than only doing asinine things. Fsck I really really doubt if you looked at each person outside of their religious self and looked at all their actions (not influenced by religions) you are going to find some really repugnant things they are doing, you will likely also find good things. Religion isn't responsible for anything People are. > Lydy Nickerson lydy at demesne.com lydy at lydy.com > Dulciculi Aliquorum