From agrajag at dragaera.net Tue Apr 1 07:45:17 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 01 Apr 2003 10:45:17 -0500 Subject: two comments on Issola In-Reply-To: <200303311632.AA926417318@amish2000.com> References: <200303311632.AA926417318@amish2000.com> Message-ID: <1049211917.1139.0.camel@loiosh> On Mon, 2003-03-31 at 19:32, M J wrote: > ... Interesting. If most Dragaerans tend to see Easterners as > children, it doesn't entirely comfort me that most Dragaerans tend > to whack Easterners about. What's worse, consider how Zerika likes to have Easterners as lovers. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Apr 1 09:40:00 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 09:40:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Glomppoints and how to assign them (was: Re: two comments on Issola) Message-ID: <200304011739.h31Hdw627276@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > SKZB himself has about seventeen thousand Gp, but that's mostly for > his cool hat. Ooo... Plus at least another thousand for his cool Parrot. Doc alone is worth at least that. Not sure if Doc is glompable, but.... Chris "Psst! Lemme outa here!" - Doc From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Tue Apr 1 18:30:04 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 18:30:04 -0800 Subject: Nothing to do with Neil Gaiman writes afterword In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Mar 2003 22:50:45 -0600, you wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "David Silberstein" >To: "Dragaera List" >Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 10:33 PM >Subject: Re: Nothing to do with Neil Gaiman writes afterword > > >> On Mon, 31 Mar 2003, Gametech wrote: >> >> >> Do Yendi ever dress in house colors? Their stock in trade seem >> >> to require not being identifiable as Yendi, in the first place... >> >> > >> >In a way wearing the garb could itself be tricky, saying to everyone >> >It's possible I'm being deceptive doesn't necessarily mean that you >> >are going to be deceptive, unless of course it benefits you. I'm sure >> >Yendi dress house appropriate at some time, but thinking about >> >comments like "you know he is a Yendi?" (from tSiG to Sethra in >> >reference to Pel, I believe) makes me think that they do not in fact >> >wear their house colors. Anyone else have something to add? >> > >> >> Aerich, who would probably know, says of Pel in tPG (pg 15, PB): >> >> "By the Phoenix, I think I could tell that he wasn't a Teckla; >> noble birth cannot be hidden. And he was not a Jhereg, or I should >> have smelled it. Every other House may be identified by face /and >> clothing/, save the Yendi." >> >> (emphasis mine, of course) >> > >Right, good, that one is anwsered. So do they even have house colors >reserved, heh? On the other hand, is this just a conceit of Aerich's? I know Vlad has had trouble identifying House without colours. Khaavren thought Daro was not an Issola because she wears green. Is it possible that, sans colour, House can be detected, but that the practise of wearing House colours is so ingrained, it can throw someone off? -- lazarus "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American Public." -- Theodore Roosevelt From rone at ennui.org Tue Apr 1 19:06:28 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (circadian rhyme) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 19:06:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Nothing to do with Neil Gaiman writes afterword In-Reply-To: from lazarus at "Apr 1, 2003 06:30:04 pm" Message-ID: <20030402030628.0B83426E31@boredom.ennui.org> lazarus writes: On the other hand, is this just a conceit of Aerich's? I know Vlad has had trouble identifying House without colours. Khaavren thought Daro was not an Issola because she wears green. Whoa there, pilgrim. You pulling an April Fools prank on me? Khaavren thought Daro was not a Tiassa because she wore Lyorn red. Also, Vlad thought the Sorceress in Green was an Athyra. rone -- "Alan Alda's all we are." - Kurt Cobain From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Apr 1 19:29:30 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 19:29:30 -0800 Subject: Glomppoints and how to assign them (was: Re: two comments on Issola) In-Reply-To: <200304011739.h31Hdw627276@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030401192903.0315d300@localhost> At 09:40 AM 4/1/2003 -0800, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > SKZB himself has about seventeen thousand Gp, but that's mostly for > > his cool hat. > >Ooo... Plus at least another thousand for his cool Parrot. >Doc alone is worth at least that. Not sure if Doc is glompable, >but.... Uh...probably not a good idea. From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Apr 1 19:14:33 2003 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 22:14:33 -0500 Subject: Glomppoints and how to assign them (was: Re: two comments on Issola) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030401192903.0315d300@localhost> Message-ID: <3A1DD7B2-64B9-11D7-9591-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> On Tuesday, April 1, 2003, at 10:29 PM, Steven Brust wrote: > At 09:40 AM 4/1/2003 -0800, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: >> > SKZB himself has about seventeen thousand Gp, but that's mostly for >> > his cool hat. >> >> Ooo... Plus at least another thousand for his cool Parrot. >> Doc alone is worth at least that. Not sure if Doc is glompable, >> but.... > > Uh...probably not a good idea. > How about Mishka, the couch dog? --- "Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself (I am large, I contain multitudes)."--Walt Whitman From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Tue Apr 1 19:27:32 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 19:27:32 -0800 Subject: Nothing to do with Neil Gaiman writes afterword In-Reply-To: <20030402030628.0B83426E31@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20030402030628.0B83426E31@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Apr 2003 19:06:28 -0800 (PST), you wrote: >lazarus writes: > On the other hand, is this just a conceit of Aerich's? I know Vlad > has had trouble identifying House without colours. Khaavren thought > Daro was not an Issola because she wears green. > >Whoa there, pilgrim. You pulling an April Fools prank on me? >Khaavren thought Daro was not a Tiassa because she wore Lyorn >red. Also, Vlad thought the Sorceress in Green was an Athyra. > >rone Whoops, got the colour wrong.. Red, green, it's all Christmasy, right? -- lazarus "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American Public." -- Theodore Roosevelt From mam at theworld.com Wed Apr 2 10:50:07 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 13:50:07 -0500 Subject: two comments on Issola In-Reply-To: <1049211917.1139.0.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: On 1 Apr 2003, Jag wrote: #What's worse, consider how Zerika likes to have Easterners as lovers. Plural? We have only one data point, n'est-ce pas? -- Mark M. From zarkon at illrepute.org Wed Apr 2 10:54:43 2003 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 13:54:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: two comments on Issola In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Apr 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: @> #What's worse, consider how Zerika likes to have Easterners as lovers. @> @> Plural? We have only one data point, n'est-ce pas? Further, Zerika says she doesn't love him because he's Eastern in Phoenix. Then again, perhaps she's just ashamed to admit that she has a thing for short, squat, hairy guys. From gomi at speakeasy.net Wed Apr 2 10:59:13 2003 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 10:59:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: two comments on Issola In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Apr 2003, John Klein wrote: > On Wed, 2 Apr 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > > @> #What's worse, consider how Zerika likes to have Easterners as lovers. > @> > @> Plural? We have only one data point, n'est-ce pas? > > Further, Zerika says she doesn't love him because he's Eastern in Phoenix. > > Then again, perhaps she's just ashamed to admit that she has a thing for > short, squat, hairy guys. RON JEREMY, CALL YOUR OFFICE. paul e. From agrajag at dragaera.net Wed Apr 2 12:51:26 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 02 Apr 2003 15:51:26 -0500 Subject: two comments on Issola In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1049316686.2243.1.camel@loiosh> On Wed, 2003-04-02 at 13:50, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On 1 Apr 2003, Jag wrote: > > #What's worse, consider how Zerika likes to have Easterners as lovers. > > Plural? We have only one data point, n'est-ce pas? I may be mistaken (as I often am), but I thought there was gossip that she had a thing for Easterners in general, not necessarily just the one that she had taken as a lover. Of course that could just be court gossip started from a single data point. I should reread Phoenix, but I could have sworn that when Vlad had to go under the Orb there was talk of her Zerika's fondness for Easterners. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Apr 2 17:20:29 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 17:20:29 -0800 Subject: two comments on Issola In-Reply-To: References: <1049211917.1139.0.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030402171954.02c5bd00@localhost> At 01:50 PM 4/2/2003 -0500, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On 1 Apr 2003, Jag wrote: > >#What's worse, consider how Zerika likes to have Easterners as lovers. > >Plural? We have only one data point, n'est-ce pas? Everybody generalizes from one example. At least, I do. From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Wed Apr 2 17:04:55 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 17:04:55 -0800 Subject: two comments on Issola In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030402171954.02c5bd00@localhost> References: <1049211917.1139.0.camel@loiosh> <5.1.0.14.0.20030402171954.02c5bd00@localhost> Message-ID: <142n8vovgmcmupebd13rutumeavilbinma@4ax.com> On Wed, 02 Apr 2003 17:20:29 -0800, you wrote: >At 01:50 PM 4/2/2003 -0500, Mark A Mandel wrote: >>On 1 Apr 2003, Jag wrote: >> >>#What's worse, consider how Zerika likes to have Easterners as lovers. >> >>Plural? We have only one data point, n'est-ce pas? > >Everybody generalizes from one example. At least, I do. > And that's now been stolen by me, with proper attribution of course. :-) -- lazarus "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American Public." -- Theodore Roosevelt From zizban at adelphia.net Wed Apr 2 17:36:40 2003 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 20:36:40 -0500 Subject: two comments on Issola In-Reply-To: <142n8vovgmcmupebd13rutumeavilbinma@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Wednesday, April 2, 2003, at 08:04 PM, lazarus wrote: > On Wed, 02 Apr 2003 17:20:29 -0800, you wrote: > >> At 01:50 PM 4/2/2003 -0500, Mark A Mandel wrote: >>> On 1 Apr 2003, Jag wrote: >>> >>> #What's worse, consider how Zerika likes to have Easterners as >>> lovers. >>> >>> Plural? We have only one data point, n'est-ce pas? >> >> Everybody generalizes from one example. At least, I do. >> > > And that's now been stolen by me, with proper attribution of course. > :-) I have it added to my collection of random signatures:-) --- "Everybody generalizes from one example. At least, I do."--Steven Brust From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Apr 3 09:32:02 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 09:32:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Glomppoints and how to assign them (was: Re: two comments on Issola) Message-ID: <200304031732.h33HW0612407@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > >> Ooo... Plus at least another thousand for his cool Parrot. > >> Doc alone is worth at least that. Not sure if Doc is glompable, > >> but.... > > > > Uh...probably not a good idea. > > > How about Mishka, the couch dog? What dog? Mishka doesn't exist. He's a mass halucination brought about by, uh ... something. We're not sure what. :) Chris "If you can't live without me, die already." - Cynthia Heimel From warlord at dragon.com Thu Apr 3 10:02:56 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 13:02:56 -0500 Subject: Glomppoints and how to assign them (was: Re: two comments on Issola) In-Reply-To: <200304031732.h33HW0612407@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: > From: Chris Olson - SunPS [mailto:Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM] > > > >> Ooo... Plus at least another thousand for his cool Parrot. > > >> Doc alone is worth at least that. Not sure if Doc is glompable, > > >> but.... > > > > > > Uh...probably not a good idea. > > > > > How about Mishka, the couch dog? > > What dog? Mishka doesn't exist. He's a mass halucination > brought about by, uh ... something. We're not sure what. > Actually, Steve blinks out sometimes, but Mishka's always there. W "Luke, I am NOT your father, the Duke behind me had exact change." -- Darth Vader From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Apr 3 13:43:59 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 13:43:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Gaiman's Afterword, Steve's Weblog, and.... Message-ID: <200304032143.h33Lhu626375@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> So, is anyone else getting a weird tingling at the base of the neck when they read Steve's weblog entry about Neil Gaiman's "About the Author" piece for _LoCB_, and then notice the date of the entry? Okay, it's likely just me.... :) Chris "If you can't live without me, die already." ~Cynthia Heimel From Gaertk at aol.com Thu Apr 3 18:19:32 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 21:19:32 -0500 Subject: Gaiman's Afterword, Steve's Weblog, and.... Message-ID: <65B7BB40.6E3DA42A.00048EA6@aol.com> Chris Olson - SunPS writes: > So, is anyone else getting a weird tingling at the > base of the neck when they read Steve's weblog entry > about Neil Gaiman's "About the Author" piece for _LoCB_, > and then notice the date of the entry? > > Okay, it's likely just me.... I didn't notice that. So I went and checked Steve's weblog, and yup, April first. Then I hunted down Neil's blog, yup April first again. (Though I didn't see the bit quoted earlier about why he was asked to write it, however that bit did show up in Google's description.) AND, up the page a bit on April 2nd, Neil quotes from an interview by Quatum Muse of Steven Brust! Link: http://www.quantummuse.com/steven_brust_interview.html Hmm, wandering around the QM site a bit, I see that the interview is dated September 2001. I thought I'd already seen all his interviews available online. --KG From davids at kithrup.com Thu Apr 3 19:04:45 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 19:04:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Gaiman's Afterword, Steve's Weblog, and.... In-Reply-To: <65B7BB40.6E3DA42A.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Apr 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >AND, up the page a bit on April 2nd, Neil quotes from an >interview by Quatum Muse of Steven Brust! Link: > >http://www.quantummuse.com/steven_brust_interview.html Strange. My corporate firewall says "Access to the desired Web page is restricted at this time", which it usually only does for sites that are exceedingly pr0nographic. I, however, am much cleverer than the firewall, and I can easily smuggle the page through using various strategems. Hmm. I see much here that is quoteworthy: QM: You were involved in the internet in its early stages back in the eighties. We at Quantum Muse like to see the Internet as empowering the masses. SKZB: Have you ever considered what a horrid word, "empowering" is? QM: With shame and regret, yes I do. I look at that sentence now and am embarrassed. This is what comes of writing and reading editorials when I should be busy with fiction, lovemaking and heavy drinking. I will make every effort to correct this unfortunate lapse. SKZB: Excellent, grasshopper. [...] QM: If you had 20 millions dollars, would you spend it on a trip to the space station, or would you just waste it? SKZB: I would not waste it. I would make good, solid investments in drugs and hookers. Actually, I think I'd build a paddlewheeler on the Mississippi. I'd like that. I could be very happy on my own paddlewheeler on the Mississippi. QM: Would you like to be the Chief Financial Officer for Quantum Muse? Those are both more fun than anything we planned. SKZB: How long will it take me scam twenty million dollars? From mam at theworld.com Sat Apr 5 09:24:19 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 12:24:19 -0500 Subject: Dragnet Message-ID: This is Brust fandom. People of all ages, sexes, and walks of life, from every continent and some places that aren't on continents at all. And on the Web, your only locations are your email address and your home page. I got a tipoff from a watchful citizen. This "spiffit" had a hunch that the 'introduction' to Teckla, between the Cycle and the prologue, bore a suspicious resemblance to the voice-over opening to each episode of Dragnet. That's a classic TV cop show. A lot of you out there only know it from reruns, and maybe there's a few who've never heard of it at all. But this fan's been on the beat a long time, and I thought Spiffit was on to something. I checked it out with a contact at the Beeb. The tip was legit. Dragnet: This is the city: Los Angeles, California. [Often, but not always, a long monologue ending with a reference to crime.] That's when I go to work. I carry a badge. DragaeraXXXXXXXX Teckla: This is the city: Adrilankha, Whitecrest. [Two paragraphs about the city, its inhabitants, and the ultimate support of justice, the Empire, ending with:] But the organization that exists at the core of House Jhereg operates illegally. The Empire is both unwilling and unable to enforce the laws and customs governing this inner society. Yet, sometimes, these unwritten laws are broken. That's when I go to work. I'm an assassin. The evidence was found convincing beyond a reasonable doubt. Verdict: Another entry in the Allusions file. Case closed. The story you've just seen is true. http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/jokes.html#Dragnet -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From warlord at dragon.com Sat Apr 5 13:52:35 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 16:52:35 -0500 Subject: Dragnet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > This is Brust fandom. People of all ages, sexes, and walks of life, from > every continent and some places that aren't on continents at all. And on > the Web, your only locations are your email address and your home page. > > I got a tipoff from a watchful citizen. This "spiffit" had a hunch that > the 'introduction' to Teckla, between the Cycle and the prologue, bore a > suspicious resemblance to the voice-over opening to each episode of > Dragnet. That's a classic TV cop show. A lot of you out there only know > it from reruns, and maybe there's a few who've never heard of it at all. > But this fan's been on the beat a long time, and I thought Spiffit was > on to something. > > I checked it out with a contact at the Beeb. The tip was legit. > > Dragnet: > > This is the city: Los Angeles, California. > > [Often, but not always, a long monologue ending with a reference to > crime.] > > That's when I go to work. I carry a badge. > > > DragaeraXXXXXXXX Teckla: > > This is the city: Adrilankha, Whitecrest. > > [Two paragraphs about the city, its inhabitants, and the ultimate > support of justice, the Empire, ending with:] > But the organization that exists at the core of House Jhereg operates > illegally. The Empire is both unwilling and unable to enforce the laws > and customs governing this inner society. Yet, sometimes, these > unwritten laws are broken. > > That's when I go to work. I'm an assassin. > > > The evidence was found convincing beyond a reasonable doubt. Verdict: > Another entry in the Allusions file. Case closed. > > The story you've just seen is true. > > http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/jokes.html#Dragnet > > -- Mark A. Mandel > http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ > a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website > > I used to watch Dragnet reruns with a passion, and spotted this right off. I thought it was fantastic, and giggled for minutes. Yes, Warlords giggle. You wanna make something of it ? W Confusing Battlefield Warcries -- Give me Liberty, or a BRAN MUFFIN. Colin Mocherie, "Whose Line is it Anyway" (arguably the funniest man on the planet) From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sat Apr 5 15:01:02 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 15:01:02 -0800 Subject: Dragnet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030405145934.02865ec0@localhost> Tee hee. Nicely done. Of course, I thought that one was about as subtle as a whore in a convent. From akodobob at sbcglobal.net Sat Apr 5 15:14:50 2003 From: akodobob at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 15:14:50 -0800 Subject: Brust on Tape References: Message-ID: <000f01c2fbc9$290c37a0$0401a8c0@DELL1> Hey, does anyone know if there are, or will be any plans for releasing audio versions of any of the Taltos books? From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sat Apr 5 15:52:12 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 15:52:12 -0800 Subject: Brust on Tape In-Reply-To: <000f01c2fbc9$290c37a0$0401a8c0@DELL1> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030405155200.02da6170@localhost> At 03:14 PM 4/5/2003 -0800, Bob wrote: >Hey, does anyone know if there are, or will be any plans for releasing audio >versions of any of the Taltos books? No one's spoken to me of any such. From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Sat Apr 5 18:43:22 2003 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 18:43:22 -0800 Subject: Brust on Tape Message-ID: <200304051843.AA64160568@amish2000.com> >At 03:14 PM 4/5/2003 -0800, Bob wrote: >>Hey, does anyone know if there are, or will be any plans for releasing audio >>versions of any of the Taltos books? I'll do one, but only if no one minds that I giggle madly whenever I try to pronounce Vlad's boss's name. ? MJ From xmasberry at mail.com Sat Apr 5 16:23:54 2003 From: xmasberry at mail.com (x*masberry) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 17:23:54 -0700 Subject: Brust on Tape In-Reply-To: <200304051843.AA64160568@amish2000.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030405171550.00bc8c30@mail.attbi.com> At 18:43 05.04.03 -0800, MJ wrote: > >At 03:14 PM 4/5/2003 -0800, Bob wrote: > >>Hey, does anyone know if there are, or will be any plans for >releasing audio > >>versions of any of the Taltos books? > > I'll do one, but only if no one minds that I giggle >madly whenever I try to pronounce Vlad's boss's name. > >? >MJ bringing up the question: if someone were to commission audio versions of the Taltos series, should the author read them himself, should someone else read them, or should a 'cast' read them? I listen to books on road trips and have loved the non-author readings of LOTR and Harry Potter, but when it comes to a Bill Bryson book, i think that only the author does his books justice. I can't think right now of a 'cast' reading they i have liked or disliked to a memorable degree. out of lurk-mode xberry From zizban at adelphia.net Sat Apr 5 16:25:51 2003 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 19:25:51 -0500 Subject: Brust on Tape In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030405171550.00bc8c30@mail.attbi.com> Message-ID: <5289C13B-67C6-11D7-82EA-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> On Saturday, April 5, 2003, at 07:23 PM, x*masberry wrote: > At 18:43 05.04.03 -0800, MJ wrote: > > >> >At 03:14 PM 4/5/2003 -0800, Bob wrote: >> >>Hey, does anyone know if there are, or will be any plans for >> releasing audio >> >>versions of any of the Taltos books? >> >> I'll do one, but only if no one minds that I giggle >> madly whenever I try to pronounce Vlad's boss's name. >> >> ? >> MJ > > bringing up the question: if someone were to commission audio versions > of the Taltos series, should the author read them himself, should > someone else read them, or should a 'cast' read them? > > I listen to books on road trips and have loved the non-author readings > of LOTR and Harry Potter, but when it comes to a Bill Bryson book, i > think that only the author does his books justice. I can't think right > now of a 'cast' reading they i have liked or disliked to a memorable > degree. > > out of lurk-mode > I am always in favor of the author reading their book his/herself. It just seems more genuine that way. --- "Everybody generalizes from one example. At least, I do."--Steven Brust From davids at kithrup.com Sat Apr 5 20:49:51 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 20:49:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Foreheads Message-ID: Whilst browsing the Cracks and Shards web pages, I noticed that the esteemed Mr. Mandel suggests that a "noble's point" is just a different name for a widow's peak. Well, I have an embarrassing confession to make: Until quite recently, I had no idea what a widow's peak was. The dictionary definition was no help. But I quickly decided that Google images might be able to show me examples, and I was amazed. "Ah!" I said to myself. "Is that all? The hairline goes up, then down (in a point), then up again? Well, I suppose that *is* all." However, now that I knew what it was, I started looking at foreheads to see if people I saw had it. I've noticed that some men have it very prominently, and emphasize it with their hairstyles, especially if they are actors or TV newscasters. With others, I am less sure if it is real or just a manipulation of hairstyling or of a balding pattern. One thing I've noticed is that women don't tend to have it, or if they do, they hide it well enough that I can't see it. I imagine that our resident medical/biological experts could explain learnedly about the widow's peak being a recessive or dominant trait, and the genetic implications behind the fact that it shows up in all Dragaerans except Teckla. I also started looking for it in portraits of Dragaerans, since that was kind of the whole point. The covers of the Paarfian romances do in fact show Khaavren & Piro having a clear noble's point, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0812506898 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0812515226 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312864787 but these otherwise excellent portraits do not (which make me wonder if the artist does not know that a noble's point is, or perhaps what a widow's peak is): http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/d/a/danisylv/sethra.jpg.html http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/loth/d/a/danisylv/kiera.jpg.html Anyway, now that I have been enlightened, I found myself wondering if perhaps a sufficiently clever Teckla might move up a social notch by having a hair-styling done to make it look like he had a noble's point, or if perhaps a Teckla who was able to buy into the Jhereg would do so. There probably are Teckla-Jhereg halfbreeds who look like Teckla and yet have noble's points. The Jhereg don't care, after all if someone is a halfbreed. Or do they? Do (Whatever)-Jhereg halfbreeds automatically become part of House Jhereg, or do they have to buy their way in like everyone else? Hmm. Do Easterners who buy in to the Jhereg get their hair styled to make it look like they have a noble's point? Vlad probably wouldn't, at any rate. From nytemuse at auros.org Sat Apr 5 21:36:49 2003 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 21:36:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Foreheads In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Apr 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > One thing I've noticed is that women don't tend to have it, or if they > do, they hide it well enough that I can't see it. Actually, I have one. And so does my mother. People don't notice mine b/c I wear my hair parted on one side and it sweeps over the peak. They notice hers if the bangs don't interfere too much... ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From rone at ennui.org Sat Apr 5 23:03:48 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (circadian rhyme) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 23:03:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dragnet In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030405145934.02865ec0@localhost> from Steven Brust at "Apr 5, 2003 03:01:02 pm" Message-ID: <20030406070348.03E0D26E38@boredom.ennui.org> Steven Brust writes: Of course, I thought that one was about as subtle as a whore in a convent. The subtlety would depend on whether the whore is dressed as a nun. rone -- "Alan Alda's all we are." - Kurt Cobain From mam at theworld.com Sun Apr 6 09:36:10 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 12:36:10 -0400 Subject: Dragnet In-Reply-To: <20030406070348.03E0D26E38@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Apr 2003, circadian rhyme wrote: #Steven Brust writes: # Of course, I thought that one was about as subtle as a whore in a convent. # #The subtlety would depend on whether the whore is dressed as a nun. When I read the intro I recognized the similarity to something I'd known, but as I was never a big _Dragnet_ fan I couldn't pin it down. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From kalio_plaid at yahoo.ca Sun Apr 6 13:27:29 2003 From: kalio_plaid at yahoo.ca (Kalio Plaid) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 16:27:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Brust on Tape In-Reply-To: <5289C13B-67C6-11D7-82EA-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <20030406202729.28479.qmail@web40810.mail.yahoo.com> Chris Turkel wrote: On Saturday, April 5, 2003, at 07:23 PM, x*masberry wrote: > At 18:43 05.04.03 -0800, MJ wrote: > > >> >At 03:14 PM 4/5/2003 -0800, Bob wrote: >> >>Hey, does anyone know if there are, or will be any plans for >> releasing audio >> >>versions of any of the Taltos books? >> >> I'll do one, but only if no one minds that I giggle >> madly whenever I try to pronounce Vlad's boss's name. >> >> ? >> MJ > > bringing up the question: if someone were to commission audio versions > of the Taltos series, should the author read them himself, should > someone else read them, or should a 'cast' read them? > > I listen to books on road trips and have loved the non-author readings > of LOTR and Harry Potter, but when it comes to a Bill Bryson book, i > think that only the author does his books justice. I can't think right > now of a 'cast' reading they i have liked or disliked to a memorable > degree. > > out of lurk-mode > I am always in favor of the author reading their book his/herself. It just seems more genuine that way. --- "Everybody generalizes from one example. At least, I do."--Steven Brust I agree with you there. I have a collection of Stephen King audio books, and half the joy of listening to them is the way he reads them--who knows better than the writer how it's supposed to sound? (Not to mention King sounds like a horror writer, so it adds to the experience.) I'd really love Dragaera audios, though. Yo Steve--what would we pay you to get you to do a few tapes? --Kalio --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals From davids at kithrup.com Sun Apr 6 13:47:37 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 13:47:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Foreheads In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030406105813.01db4800@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Apr 2003, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: >At 23:49 04/05/2003, David Silberstein wrote: >> >>One thing I've noticed is that women don't tend to have it, or if they >>do, they hide it well enough that I can't see it. > >Is you watch "Buffy", look at Willow. (Googles on Allyson Hannigan) Aha! Indeed she does. But I note that many of the pictures have her hair brushed forward to hide it. It's not very prominent, either. >> >>Anyway, now that I have been enlightened, I found myself wondering >>if perhaps a sufficiently clever Teckla might move up a social notch >>by having a hair-styling done to make it look like he had a noble's >>point, or if perhaps a Teckla who was able to buy into the Jhereg >>would do so. > >No. They have a round face; nobles have sharp features and a long, >narrow face. The *upper* nobility, yes. But perhaps Jhereg could have round faces, or Jhegaala or Chreotha or Tsalmoth. >> >>Hmm. Do Easterners who buy in to the Jhereg get their hair styled >>to make it look like they have a noble's point? Vlad probably >>wouldn't, at any rate. > >There seem to be virtually no Easterners in the Jhereg (except for >Vlad and Cawti, and I have never really figured out why she was >there). > Not that Vlad has met, but Adrilankha is a big city. And not every Jhereg is part of the Organization, which is what Vlad mostly has interaction with. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Sun Apr 6 14:00:57 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 17:00:57 -0400 Subject: Foreheads References: Message-ID: <3E909589.2090608@earthlink.net> David Silberstein wrote: > On Sun, 6 Apr 2003, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > > >>At 23:49 04/05/2003, David Silberstein wrote: >> >>>One thing I've noticed is that women don't tend to have it, or if they >>>do, they hide it well enough that I can't see it. >> >>Is you watch "Buffy", look at Willow. > > (Googles on Allyson Hannigan) Aha! Indeed she does. But I note that > many of the pictures have her hair brushed forward to hide it. It's > not very prominent, either. Maybe it's just me, but googling on Alyson Hannigan sounds a bit rude, eh? Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Apr 6 14:10:50 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 14:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Foreheads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Apr 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > On Sun, 6 Apr 2003, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > > >No. They have a round face; nobles have sharp features and a long, > >narrow face. > > The *upper* nobility, yes. But perhaps Jhereg could have round faces, > or Jhegaala or Chreotha or Tsalmoth. > > >> > >>Hmm. Do Easterners who buy in to the Jhereg get their hair styled > >>to make it look like they have a noble's point? Vlad probably > >>wouldn't, at any rate. Note that in _Orca_, Kiera shows up with her hair brushed forward to hide her noble's point; she snarkily wonders if Vlad even notices. And later when Vlad dresses up like a Chreotha he steals a wig with a noble's point, but otherwise he's sort of able to pass with (8-inch) boots and a little powder for his beard. Perhaps being in the wilderness has helped his face become thinner... Vlad wears a mustache to look less Dragaeran so he certainly wouldn't have a noble's coiffure. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Apr 6 14:16:19 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 14:16:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Foreheads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Not that Vlad has met, but Adrilankha is a big city. And not every > Jhereg is part of the Organization, which is what Vlad mostly has > interaction with. Where do we know this from (beyond Easterners who buy a title)? And what does a Dragaeran Jhereg do outside the Organization? Note that in _Phoenix_ (I think) the Empress calls House Jhereg the O. before correcting herself. From bjf at wavefront.com Sun Apr 6 14:25:46 2003 From: bjf at wavefront.com (Beth Friedman) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 16:25:46 -0500 Subject: Foreheads In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030406105813.01db4800@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030406162435.05be4a60@shell.visi.com> On Sun, 6 Apr 2003, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: >At 23:49 04/05/2003, David Silberstein wrote: >> >>One thing I've noticed is that women don't tend to have it, or if they >>do, they hide it well enough that I can't see it. > >Is you watch "Buffy", look at Willow. Also Claudia Christian ("Ivonova" from B5). -- Beth Friedman / bjf at wavefront.com There are 10 types of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those who don't. From rick at 404.978.org Sun Apr 6 14:35:41 2003 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 17:35:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Foreheads In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030406162435.05be4a60@shell.visi.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030406105813.01db4800@pop.east.cox.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20030406162435.05be4a60@shell.visi.com> Message-ID: <2167.192.168.1.1.1049664941.squirrel@404.978.org> Beth Friedman said: > On Sun, 6 Apr 2003, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > > >At 23:49 04/05/2003, David Silberstein wrote: > >> > >>One thing I've noticed is that women don't tend to have it, or if > they do, they hide it well enough that I can't see it. > > > >Is you watch "Buffy", look at Willow. > > Also Claudia Christian ("Ivonova" from B5). Ivanova, and indeed she does. http://404.978.org/gallery/SouthernFaire1999/aag Me with CC and a friend at Southern Pleasure Faire in CA. (Sadly, her hat covers her noble's point) BTW: How did the CA Brustian Gathering(s) go? Did anyone take any pictures? We're having ours in MA soon, and I was curious if anyone else followed through? -Rick From bjf at wavefront.com Sun Apr 6 14:32:25 2003 From: bjf at wavefront.com (Beth Friedman) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 16:32:25 -0500 Subject: Foreheads In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030406162435.05be4a60@shell.visi.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030406105813.01db4800@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030406163200.05becba0@shell.visi.com> In our previous episode at 04:25 PM 4/6/03, Beth Friedman wrote: >On Sun, 6 Apr 2003, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > > >At 23:49 04/05/2003, David Silberstein wrote: > >> > >>One thing I've noticed is that women don't tend to have it, or if they > >>do, they hide it well enough that I can't see it. > > > >Is you watch "Buffy", look at Willow. > >Also Claudia Christian ("Ivonova" from B5). Er, I mean "Ivanova." -- Beth Friedman / bjf at wavefront.com There are 10 types of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those who don't. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Apr 6 14:49:00 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 14:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: two comments on The Phoenix Guards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pg. 175 - Tazendra makes flash-stones. The procedure includes chanting in Serioli, "of which she had at least memorized what she needed to know." Chanting in an unknown language doesn't sound much like the sorcery described in _Issola_ - Vlad would say it actually sounds like witchcraft. There is a lot of excellent humor I missed on first reading. For example, on pg. 215 Fayaavik says, "Blood of the Horse, I am consistent, I think." I take this apparent wrong-character anachronism as SKZB poking fun at himself. Or Paarfi got mixed up - note the "the Horse" is used as an exclamation elsewhere, e.g. pg. 207. Another instance of subtle (?) humor - on pg. 198, Uttrik is describing a recent battle: his commander is mortally wounded, but manages to gather and array her forces and lead a charge before succumbing. I previously took this literally, but now it seems to me like a fish story from a slight young man whose dueling costume includes "sufficient ruffles and lace to have made a dance-party for the court" and who Khaavren refers to as "Dragonling". Finally, on pages 203/4 Mica compares himself to Kieron the Conquerer - I believe Paarfi intends this as farce, which is amusing. From rone at ennui.org Sun Apr 6 15:15:14 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (circadian rhyme) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 15:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Foreheads In-Reply-To: <2167.192.168.1.1.1049664941.squirrel@404.978.org> from Rick Castello at "Apr 6, 2003 05:35:41 pm" Message-ID: <20030406221514.C73EC26E3B@boredom.ennui.org> Rick Castello writes: BTW: How did the CA Brustian Gathering(s) go? Did anyone take any pictures? We're having ours in MA soon, and I was curious if anyone else followed through? Ours went well. I arrived late and last. Nobody had a camera, though. rone -- "Alan Alda's all we are." - Kurt Cobain From nytemuse at auros.org Sun Apr 6 20:35:35 2003 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 20:35:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Foreheads In-Reply-To: <3E909589.2090608@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Apr 2003, Jose Marquez wrote: > > (Googles on Allyson Hannigan) Aha! Indeed she does. But I note that > > many of the pictures have her hair brushed forward to hide it. It's > > not very prominent, either. > > Maybe it's just me, but googling on Alyson Hannigan sounds a bit rude, eh? *chuckle* Especially since she's an almost-married woman! In September, I believe... ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From Raellew at aol.com Tue Apr 8 01:58:29 2003 From: Raellew at aol.com (Raellew at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 04:58:29 EDT Subject: Vlad's choice of terms Message-ID: <1e2.643a173.2bc3e935@aol.com> In a message dated 3/24/03, Philip Hart writes: >I'm surprised you noticed this particular four-letter-word >(when other such are conspicuously absent from the >Vladiad) and not "hissy-cow", which struck me as likely >coming from one of those computer-translation-of-English- >to-Russian-to-Albanian-to-English chains I'm a little late, here ... but "hissy-cow" looks like it might be a combination of "hissy fit" (a temper tantrum) and "have a cow" (to become angry or upset). Rae From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Apr 8 10:02:30 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 10:02:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vlad's choice of terms Message-ID: <200304081702.h38H2Qr27494@phys-hanwk14-2.ebay.sun.com> > I'm a little late, here ... but "hissy-cow" looks like it might be a > combination of "hissy fit" (a temper tantrum) and "have a cow" > (to become angry or upset). Yes, I'm sure it is. And I don't care if it's a translation problem between Brust, Brust, and Vlad. It's still funny as hell. And the fact that Sethra likes it, and that Adron's Disaster could be summed up as Adron having a hissy-cow and destroying the Empire.... "Never underestimate the power of the Hissy-Cow." Adron's Disaster just proves: One should only use the power of the Hissy-Cow for Good! Chris (Who has used the term a few times since first reading it.:) "You are indefatigable in your dogged pursuit of normality." From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Apr 11 13:07:00 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 13:07:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Foreheads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Apr 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > I imagine that our resident medical/biological experts could explain > learnedly about the widow's peak being a recessive or dominant trait, Dominant. > and the genetic implications behind the fact that it shows up in all > Dragaerans except Teckla. The implication would be that no nobility ended up as Teckla, or nobles who join House Teckla don't have children, or that a noble's point is a strong selection disadvantage for Tecklas (which I can well imagine). I assume that the recessive gene was bred out of nobles long ago because homozygous recessives get kicked out or perhaps exposed a la Oedipus. Note that it's _not_ a simple way for the nobility to kick out Teckla hybrids. > > I also started looking for it in portraits of Dragaerans, since that > was kind of the whole point. The covers of the Paarfian romances > do in fact show Khaavren & Piro having a clear noble's point, > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312864787 Is this Piro? He looks too wry and doesn't look young enough; and his clothes seem a bit simple for a Viscount and the colors are wrong. I thought this might be intended to be Morrolan, which would make the altar-like object more probable. From warlord at dragon.com Fri Apr 11 13:20:01 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 16:20:01 -0400 Subject: Foreheads In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Sat, 5 Apr 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > > > I imagine that our resident medical/biological experts could explain > > learnedly about the widow's peak being a recessive or dominant trait, > > Dominant. Of course, nobles are rarely submissive. > > > and the genetic implications behind the fact that it shows up in all > > Dragaerans except Teckla. > > The implication would be that no nobility ended up as Teckla, or nobles > who join House Teckla don't have children, or that a noble's point is a > strong selection disadvantage for Tecklas (which I can well imagine). > I assume that the recessive gene was bred out of nobles long ago because > homozygous recessives get kicked out or perhaps exposed a la Oedipus. > > Note that it's _not_ a simple way for the nobility to kick out Teckla > hybrids. > > > > > > I also started looking for it in portraits of Dragaerans, since that > > was kind of the whole point. The covers of the Paarfian romances > > do in fact show Khaavren & Piro having a clear noble's point, > > > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312864787 > > Is this Piro? He looks too wry and doesn't look young enough; and his > clothes seem a bit simple for a Viscount and the colors are wrong. I > thought this might be intended to be Morrolan, which would make the > altar-like object more probable. > Doesn't look anything like him, cloths are wrong, demenor is wrong, color is wrong, background is incorrect -- Must be a book cover. W "Women. Can't live with 'em, pass the beer nuts." ---Norm, "Cheers" From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Apr 11 13:31:48 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 15:31:48 -0500 Subject: Foreheads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030411203148.GA6958@infodancer.org> On Fri, Apr 11, 2003 at 04:20:01PM -0400, Warlord wrote: > > On Sat, 5 Apr 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > > > I imagine that our resident medical/biological experts could explain > > > learnedly about the widow's peak being a recessive or dominant trait, > > Dominant. > Of course, nobles are rarely submissive. Obviously, you've been consorting with the wrong nobles. ObSethra: Leather or silk restraints? -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Apr 11 13:38:42 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 13:38:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Foreheads Message-ID: <200304112038.h3BKca405955@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Obviously, you've been consorting with the wrong nobles. > > ObSethra: Leather or silk restraints? I'd take a stab at Aliera, Cawti, Morrolan, and a few others (leather, silk, leather for the above), but Sethra? Who the hell knows. I'd suspect it depends on her mood. Is she in the nice, sweet, Kiera mood? The hard-as-stakes (what? She's a vampire:) General/Enchantress? The innocent, cute Sethra who almost blushes when offering unfinished food to a one-armed Vlad? Too tough to tell. And would one really want to find out? ;> Chris "If you can't live without me, die already." ~Cynthia Heimel From zarkon at illrepute.org Fri Apr 11 13:40:13 2003 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 16:40:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sethra (was: Foreheads) In-Reply-To: <200304112038.h3BKca405955@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Apr 2003, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: @> I'd take a stab at Aliera, Cawti, Morrolan, and a few @> others (leather, silk, leather for the above), but Sethra? @> Who the hell knows. I'd suspect it depends on her mood. Is @> she in the nice, sweet, Kiera mood? The hard-as-stakes (what? @> She's a vampire:) General/Enchantress? The innocent, cute Sethra @> who almost blushes when offering unfinished food to a one-armed Vlad? @> @> Too tough to tell. And would one really want to find out? Where's your sense of adventure? From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Apr 11 13:47:22 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 13:47:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sethra (was: Foreheads) Message-ID: <200304112047.h3BKlH709784@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Where's your sense of adventure? I'm not sure. I lost it a few years ago. I think it took off at the same time an ex of mine did. Maybe she stole it.... Besides, we're talking about someone who turns people into Norska because they're trying to storm her castle. Goddess forbid I forget a safeword at the wrong time, ya know? Who knows what might go missing or be turned into something else.... Okay, I need to stop now, before I go where mortals should never dare tread.... Chris (Who has a perfectly dangerous sense of adventure, and chooses to ignore it...:) "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Apr 11 14:22:30 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 14:22:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Paarfi: useless, quote, sPEcuLation In-Reply-To: <20030411203148.GA6958@infodancer.org> References: <20030411203148.GA6958@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Paarfi uses "useless" on occasion slightly unidiomatically (for English): Pel tells Jenicor it would have been useless to have been seen, Zerika tells Tazendra it would be useless to order a charge. However, in French one could use "inutile" in such circumstances, as Dumas does. I wonder if SKZB got this from the original or if the old translations were too literal. In this week's New Yorker there is a discussion of the Amber Room, which was originally built by Frederick I of Prussia. His second wife liked to debate Leibniz (coinventor of calculus). The article quotes her as saying (rather more wordily) 'That idiot Leibniz wants to teach me about infinitesimals. Does he think I haven't met my husband?' I could hear the Consort saying this... Infinitesimal reference to _Paths of the Dead_ follows: Paarfi describes Pel in _tPG_ and _FHYA_ as small, beautiful, given to changing the color of his eyes a la Aliera, and clapping in a feminine manner. Crazy speculation: Pel is female, and is in drag for plot reasons. Presumably those reasons evaporated with the Orb, but perhaps it was simplest to continue crossing. Aerich in _tPotD_ points out that he hasn't had any children and they hug. Well, later they do. The hug makes the "female" theory a bit less likely, though maybe Dragaerans, being so thin and not having beards, have less prominent secondary sexual characteristics than Easterners. Speculation duo: Pel is gay, and Paarfi's translator has made the wrong assumption about the gender of his conquests. Or the translator was right _and_ both speculations are right. From mam at theworld.com Fri Apr 11 15:26:09 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 18:26:09 -0400 Subject: Foreheads In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Apr 2003, Philip Hart wrote: #On Sat, 5 Apr 2003, David Silberstein wrote: # #> I imagine that our resident medical/biological experts could explain #> learnedly about the widow's peak being a recessive or dominant trait, # #Dominant. # #> and the genetic implications behind the fact that it shows up in all #> Dragaerans except Teckla. # #The implication would be that no nobility ended up as Teckla, or nobles #who join House Teckla don't have children, or that a noble's point is a #strong selection disadvantage for Tecklas (which I can well imagine). # #I assume that the recessive gene was bred out of nobles long ago because #homozygous recessives get kicked out or perhaps exposed a la Oedipus. That's assuming that this statement is categorically true across the Teckla population. I don't think (whoever said it) knows that as a fact. The n.p. could be very rare in Teckla, possibly for any of the reasons mentioned above (and its genetics in our species don't have to have carried over to Dragaerans, through all the J's mucking around with their genomes). -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From warlord at dragon.com Fri Apr 11 15:43:49 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 18:43:49 -0400 Subject: Foreheads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030411184130.00a04750@mail.dragon.com> At 18:26 4/11/2003 -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Fri, 11 Apr 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > >#On Sat, 5 Apr 2003, David Silberstein wrote: ># >#> I imagine that our resident medical/biological experts could explain >#> learnedly about the widow's peak being a recessive or dominant trait, ># >#Dominant. ># >#> and the genetic implications behind the fact that it shows up in all >#> Dragaerans except Teckla. ># >#The implication would be that no nobility ended up as Teckla, or nobles >#who join House Teckla don't have children, or that a noble's point is a >#strong selection disadvantage for Tecklas (which I can well imagine). ># >#I assume that the recessive gene was bred out of nobles long ago because >#homozygous recessives get kicked out or perhaps exposed a la Oedipus. > >That's assuming that this statement is categorically true across the >Teckla population. I don't think (whoever said it) knows that as a fact. >The n.p. could be very rare in Teckla, possibly for any of the reasons >mentioned above (and its genetics in our species don't have to have >carried over to Dragaerans, through all the J's mucking around with >their genomes). Inquiring genomes went to mind. W From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Fri Apr 11 22:25:10 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 22:25:10 -0700 Subject: Paarfi: useless, quote, sPEcuLation In-Reply-To: References: <20030411203148.GA6958@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Apr 2003 14:22:30 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >Paarfi describes Pel in _tPG_ and _FHYA_ as small, beautiful, given to >changing the color of his eyes a la Aliera, and clapping in a feminine >manner. Crazy speculation: Pel is female, and is in drag for plot >reasons. Presumably those reasons evaporated with the Orb, but perhaps it >was simplest to continue crossing. Aerich in _tPotD_ points out that he >hasn't had any children and they hug. Well, later they do. The hug makes >the "female" theory a bit less likely, though maybe Dragaerans, being so >thin and not having beards, have less prominent secondary sexual >characteristics than Easterners. Speculation duo: Pel is gay, and >Paarfi's translator has made the wrong assumption about the gender of his >conquests. Or the translator was right _and_ both speculations are right. Leading to further speculation: Is homosexuality known in Dragaera? Or bisexuality? -- lazarus "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American Public." -- Theodore Roosevelt From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Sat Apr 12 01:46:33 2003 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 01:46:33 -0700 Subject: Paarfi: useless, quote, sPEcuLation Message-ID: <200304120146.AA1560543352@amish2000.com> From: lazarus Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 22:25:10 -0700 >On Fri, 11 Apr 2003 14:22:30 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: > >>Paarfi describes Pel in _tPG_ and _FHYA_ as small, beautiful, given to >>changing the color of his eyes a la Aliera, and clapping in a feminine >>manner. Crazy speculation: Pel is female, and is in drag for plot >>reasons. Presumably those reasons evaporated with the Orb, but perhaps it >>was simplest to continue crossing. Aerich in _tPotD_ points out that he >>hasn't had any children and they hug. Well, later they do. The hug makes >>the "female" theory a bit less likely, though maybe Dragaerans, being so >>thin and not having beards, have less prominent secondary sexual >>characteristics than Easterners. Speculation duo: Pel is gay, and >>Paarfi's translator has made the wrong assumption about the gender of his >>conquests. Or the translator was right _and_ both speculations are right. > >Leading to further speculation: Is homosexuality known in Dragaera? >Or bisexuality? Well, if not... there are gonna be some very disappointed Morrolan fangirls, I can tell you THAT. On the other hand, dontcha remember the Baronesses Clover and Newhouse, one of whom was attracted to the other? And Polyi speculated that Vlad was Reins' lover. ? MJ, a Morrolan fangirl From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sat Apr 12 00:19:57 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 00:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Paarfi: useless, quote, sPEcuLation In-Reply-To: References: <20030411203148.GA6958@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Apr 2003, lazarus wrote: > On Fri, 11 Apr 2003 14:22:30 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: > > >Paarfi describes Pel in _tPG_ and _FHYA_ as small, beautiful, given to > >changing the color of his eyes a la Aliera, and clapping in a feminine > >manner. Crazy speculation: Pel is female, and is in drag for plot > >reasons. Presumably those reasons evaporated with the Orb, but perhaps it > >was simplest to continue crossing. Aerich in _tPotD_ points out that he > >hasn't had any children and they hug. Well, later they do. The hug makes > >the "female" theory a bit less likely, though maybe Dragaerans, being so > >thin and not having beards, have less prominent secondary sexual > >characteristics than Easterners. Speculation duo: Pel is gay, and > >Paarfi's translator has made the wrong assumption about the gender of his > >conquests. Or the translator was right _and_ both speculations are right. > > Leading to further speculation: Is homosexuality known in Dragaera? > Or bisexuality? Beginning of _Orca_, Vlad yanks Kiera's chain by referring to Savn as his catamite ("a boy used for sodomy", says my Reader's Digest dictionary). Kiera feels ashamed of being bothered by the thought - though it would in our morality be more or less statutory rape - Savn isn't yet a sexual being. On the other hand (trying to remember recent interpretation of the construction of gender in ancient Greece) men having sex with boys can likely not be construed as what we refer to as homosexuality. On the other hand, Kiera might have trouble with the idea of Vlad sleeping with a human... From jimkatz at ix.netcom.com Sat Apr 12 07:16:11 2003 From: jimkatz at ix.netcom.com (Jim Katz) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 10:16:11 -0400 Subject: Slightly OT: Game Software toolkits Message-ID: <3E981FAB.F37AC2F5@ix.netcom.com> Hi A few months ago there was a discussion about games and patents. I mentioned that a buddy of mine had applied for a patent on a game he had created. Well, the patent has actually been approved, and now he wants to put it on the Web, naturally! It's a board game that has elements that are similar to monopoly combined with elements from the RPG world. I can't say more than that at this point, for obvious reasons. He's asked me to develop the web application, but I have never built this kind of thing before so I'm looking for suggestions for toolkits to build the Client application to run in a browser, using either Java or MM Flash or the like. My intent is to build something similar to the online Monopoly games that I have seen. Does anybody have any recommendations? Since the development language that I use everyday will now support true preemptive threading, I will probably use it to build the server side engine. TIA Jim -- ! Jim Katz ! Certified Clarion Developer ! Author: ABC DLL Toolkit Maintainer: DEF for ABC,DET for Legacy ! Web Site: http://home.iag.net/~jimkatz/ ! Company: iTradeZone,Inc. ! Using Clarion for Windows - Always looking for the simpler solution. From jetdragon at comcast.net Sat Apr 12 07:58:34 2003 From: jetdragon at comcast.net (Jessica) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 09:58:34 -0500 Subject: Secret Yendi Signals Message-ID: <001701c30103$fdb67a30$fb953544@octavo> Small tPotD spoilers Hi, long time lurker, etc. I was re-reading tPotD when something caught my eye. On page 310, when Pel arrives at Dzur Mountain, he meets the Sorceress in Green. "The Sorceress studied him, then abruptly sheathed her sword and made a certain motion with the fingers of her left hand. Upon seeing this, Pel, his eyes widening slightly, made a similar yet different motion with the fingers of his left hand, after which the Sorceress said, 'Follow me, then, my lord Galstan.'" Then, as they meet with Sethra, the Sorceress asks if Sethra was aware that Pel is a Yendi. But when Pel introduced himself to the Sorceress, he called himself the Duke of Galstan and didn't mention a house. So it seems the Yendi use hand signals to identify themselves to one another. So what information is contained in the signals? Rank, maybe? If it was just a house identifier, presumably the signals would be the same. I just thought I'd point this out for anyone else who tends to miss small things like this, since I was very happy to have found it. :) If someone else has already pointed this out, my apologies. -Jessica From Gaertk at aol.com Sat Apr 12 12:02:59 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 15:02:59 -0400 Subject: Secret Yendi Signals Message-ID: <5F5CB7C1.08BB804E.00048EA6@aol.com> Jessica writes: > Small tPotD spoilers > > Hi, long time lurker, etc. Welcome. > I was re-reading tPotD when something caught my eye. On > page 310, when Pel arrives at Dzur Mountain, he meets the > Sorceress in Green. > > "The Sorceress studied him, then abruptly sheathed her > sword and made a certain motion with the fingers of her > left hand. Upon seeing this, Pel, his eyes widening > slightly, made a similar yet different motion with the > fingers of his left hand, after which the Sorceress said, > 'Follow me, then, my lord Galstan.'" [...] > So it seems the Yendi use hand signals to identify > themselves to one another. > > So what information is contained in the signals? Rank, > maybe? If it was just a house identifier, presumably the > signals would be the same. I meant to comment on this back when the book came out, but it looks like I forgot. Its definately a House identifier, but I don't think it gives rank. I don't think Yendis have ranks (other than titles), and if they did, I doubt they would tell them to strangers (especially strangers from their House; these are Yendi, after all). My guess is that the difference is in whether they want to hide their House from others; SiG does, while Pel doesn't care. I have to really wonder at Paarfi's source for this scene, since he *claims* not to know SiG's House. --KG From mam at theworld.com Sat Apr 12 13:28:38 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 16:28:38 -0400 Subject: Secret Yendi Signals In-Reply-To: <5F5CB7C1.08BB804E.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: [Jessica] #> "The Sorceress studied him, then abruptly sheathed her #> sword and made a certain motion with the fingers of her #> left hand. Upon seeing this, Pel, his eyes widening #> slightly, made a similar yet different motion with the #> fingers of his left hand, after which the Sorceress said, #> 'Follow me, then, my lord Galstan.'" # [...] #> So it seems the Yendi use hand signals to identify #> themselves to one another. #> #> So what information is contained in the signals? Rank, #> maybe? If it was just a house identifier, presumably the #> signals would be the same. [Gaertk] #Its definately a House identifier, but I don't think it gives #rank. I don't think Yendis have ranks (other than titles), #and if they did, I doubt they would tell them to strangers #(especially strangers from their House; these are Yendi, #after all). I disagree in part. Imagine a real-world situation: Mr. A is traveling in a country far from his own, where a different language is spoken. On the street he sees a stranger, Ms. B, whom he guesses to be from the same country (by facial appearance, the tune she's whistling, a piece of jewelry... it doesn't matter). He approaches her and asks in his native language where he can find a "Homelandish" restaurant. Her first reaction is surprise at hearing what is indeed her mother tongue, and then she tells him that she's on her way to a Homelandish restaurant. What would a non-Homelandish observer report? "He said something I couldn't understand. Her eyes widened, then she said something similar but not quite the same." Very much like Paarfi's report. The question is not in itself a recognition signal, but it's a vocalization that nobody would produce by chance or by trying to do something else (e.g., ask "What time is it?" in some completely different language). The "recognition signal" is the fact that it's in Homelandish, supported by its appropriateness to the situation (unlike the Homelandish for "I disagree in part" or "My father's delphinium has the measles"). I'm not claiming that the SiG's and Pel's hand signals carried that much meaning, or even as much meaning as a single word in a sign language*. But gestures can be much more complex and meaning-bearing than they look to an uninformed observer, and invented codes often assign complex meanings to simple signals. Just imagining, for example: the SiG could have made a single sign that meant "I am currently in service to someone not of our House. If you have non-hostile business with that person, I will assist you within the limits of my authority." And Pel's reply could have meant "I am (also) currently in service to someone not of our House. I have non-hostile business with your current master, and I request your assistance with it." Amateur radio operators ("hams") use three-letter Q-signals in Morse code to convey specialized meanings concisely. Here's an example from http://spiffy.cso.uiuc.edu/~kline/Stuff/q-sigs.html : QSK? "Can you hear me between your signals and if so may I break in on your transmissions?" QSK "I can hear you between my signals; break in on my transmissions." * Sign languages: My doctoral dissertation was on certain aspects of American Sign Language. I used to be able to converse in it, though never fluently. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sat Apr 12 13:54:57 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 13:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Secret Yendi Signals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just a reminder that what Paarfi reports as a brief conversation is likely to last for an hour... On Sat, 12 Apr 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > [Jessica] > #> "The Sorceress studied him, then abruptly sheathed her > #> sword and made a certain motion with the fingers of her > #> left hand. Upon seeing this, Pel, his eyes widening > #> slightly, made a similar yet different motion with the > #> fingers of his left hand, after which the Sorceress said, > #> 'Follow me, then, my lord Galstan.'" > # [...] > #> So it seems the Yendi use hand signals to identify > #> themselves to one another. > #> > #> So what information is contained in the signals? Rank, > #> maybe? If it was just a house identifier, presumably the > #> signals would be the same. > > [Gaertk] > #Its definately a House identifier, but I don't think it gives > #rank. I don't think Yendis have ranks (other than titles), > #and if they did, I doubt they would tell them to strangers > #(especially strangers from their House; these are Yendi, > #after all). > > I disagree in part. Imagine a real-world situation: Mr. A is traveling > in a country far from his own, where a different language is spoken. On > the street he sees a stranger, Ms. B, whom he guesses to be from the > same country (by facial appearance, the tune she's whistling, a piece of > jewelry... it doesn't matter). He approaches her and asks in his native > language where he can find a "Homelandish" restaurant. Her first > reaction is surprise at hearing what is indeed her mother tongue, and > then she tells him that she's on her way to a Homelandish restaurant. > > What would a non-Homelandish observer report? "He said something I > couldn't understand. Her eyes widened, then she said something similar > but not quite the same." Very much like Paarfi's report. > > The question is not in itself a recognition signal, but it's a > vocalization that nobody would produce by chance or by trying to do > something else (e.g., ask "What time is it?" in some completely > different language). The "recognition signal" is the fact that it's in > Homelandish, supported by its appropriateness to the situation (unlike > the Homelandish for "I disagree in part" or "My father's delphinium has > the measles"). > > I'm not claiming that the SiG's and Pel's hand signals carried that much > meaning, or even as much meaning as a single word in a sign language*. > But gestures can be much more complex and meaning-bearing than they look > to an uninformed observer, and invented codes often assign complex > meanings to simple signals. Just imagining, for example: the SiG could > have made a single sign that meant "I am currently in service to someone > not of our House. If you have non-hostile business with that person, I > will assist you within the limits of my authority." And Pel's reply > could have meant "I am (also) currently in service to someone not of our > House. I have non-hostile business with your current master, and I > request your assistance with it." > > Amateur radio operators ("hams") use three-letter Q-signals in Morse > code to convey specialized meanings concisely. Here's an example from > http://spiffy.cso.uiuc.edu/~kline/Stuff/q-sigs.html : > > QSK? "Can you hear me between your signals and if so may I > break in on your transmissions?" > > QSK "I can hear you between my signals; break in on my > transmissions." > > * Sign languages: My doctoral dissertation was on certain aspects of > American Sign Language. I used to be able to converse in it, though > never fluently. > > -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and > Philological Busybody > a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel > http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ > a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website > > > From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Apr 14 14:21:23 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 14:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: question about Orlaan - _The Paths of the Dead_ Spoiler In-Reply-To: References: <20030411203148.GA6958@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Could someone enlighten me about Orlaan/Grita? She's Garland's daughter by Sennya, we learn in _FHYA_. On page 230 of that work, he instructs her to infiltrate Adron's encampment - apparently she is able to do so by doing something distasteful - presumably pass as a Dragon. In _tPotD_ she implies to Piro that she has bathed in the (lesser) sea of chaos. According to Aliera in _Jhereg_, this means she has the e'Kieron genes required. (Also I wondered a bit that Orlaan seems more fluent with elder sorcery than Aliera does in _Phoenix_.) Anyway, it's revealed in _FHYA_ that she is a Dzur/Tsalmoth hybrid, but where is the Dragon part? Another question - her father goes by Greycat - a reference to his dzur connection? Finally, how is it that she survived the Disaster? She rides off after the remnant of the brigand band while Khaavren&Co sneak into Adron's tent, and then earlier than 20-30 minutes - "too soon", says Adron - kaboom. In _tPG_ there is a description of the now non-existent sights outside the city, quite a lot of them. Well, anyway, I'm thinking it was a close call or perhaps she survived because of her genetics... From tmer at eudoramail.com Tue Apr 15 07:13:52 2003 From: tmer at eudoramail.com (Barbara Baj) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 10:13:52 -0400 Subject: question about Orlaan - _The Paths of the Dead_ Spoiler Message-ID: -- On Mon, 14 Apr 2003 14:21:23 Philip Hart wrote: > > >> >Could someone enlighten me about Orlaan/Grita? She's Garland's daughter >by Sennya, we learn in _FHYA_. On page 230 of that work, he instructs her >to infiltrate Adron's encampment - apparently she is able to do so by >doing something distasteful - presumably pass as a Dragon. How odd. My impression was that she would join the army and pass as a Dzur, and the distasteful bit would be to pass as a House that would not have anything to do with her due to her heritage. I thought (perhaps mistakenly) that Dragon armies are made up of *mostly* Dragons, that being a rather warfare-minded House. (Not counting conscripts.) - Barbara Need a new email address that people can remember Check out the new EudoraMail at http://www.eudoramail.com From agrajag at dragaera.net Tue Apr 15 07:26:21 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 15 Apr 2003 10:26:21 -0400 Subject: question about Orlaan - _The Paths of the Dead_ Spoiler In-Reply-To: References: <20030411203148.GA6958@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <1050416781.2208.6.camel@loiosh> On Mon, 2003-04-14 at 17:21, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > > Could someone enlighten me about Orlaan/Grita? She's Garland's daughter > by Sennya, we learn in _FHYA_. On page 230 of that work, he instructs her > to infiltrate Adron's encampment - apparently she is able to do so by > doing something distasteful - presumably pass as a Dragon. Am I the only person who thought that meant prostitution? Or is that answer just to obvious? > In _tPotD_ > she implies to Piro that she has bathed in the (lesser) sea of chaos. > According to Aliera in _Jhereg_, this means she has the e'Kieron genes > required. No, e'Kieron genes are required to create raw chaos, not to control raw chaos. Its just that even if you can, you shouldn't create raw chaos unless you understand it well enough to bathe in a sea of chaos. > (Also I wondered a bit that Orlaan seems more fluent with elder > sorcery than Aliera does in _Phoenix_.) Orlaan was around for the entire Interregnum working on elder sorcery as a way of having some sort of sorcery. Aliera was never alive with a body and able to practice sorcery when there wasn't an Orb around. > Anyway, it's revealed in _FHYA_ > that she is a Dzur/Tsalmoth hybrid, but where is the Dragon part? Read above. No dragon part requires. From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Tue Apr 15 07:30:05 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 07:30:05 -0700 Subject: question about Orlaan - _The Paths of the Dead_ Spoiler In-Reply-To: <1050416781.2208.6.camel@loiosh> References: <20030411203148.GA6958@infodancer.org> <1050416781.2208.6.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: <5q5o9vgei0jknop36d1u9rpnjcjogjf4sm@4ax.com> On 15 Apr 2003 10:26:21 -0400, you wrote: >On Mon, 2003-04-14 at 17:21, Philip Hart wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Could someone enlighten me about Orlaan/Grita? She's Garland's daughter >> by Sennya, we learn in _FHYA_. On page 230 of that work, he instructs her >> to infiltrate Adron's encampment - apparently she is able to do so by >> doing something distasteful - presumably pass as a Dragon. > >Am I the only person who thought that meant prostitution? Or is that >answer just to obvious? > I did as well. -- lazarus "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American Public." -- Theodore Roosevelt From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Tue Apr 15 07:54:16 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 10:54:16 -0400 Subject: question about Orlaan - _The Paths of the Dead_ Spoiler References: <20030411203148.GA6958@infodancer.org> <1050416781.2208.6.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: <3E9C1D18.6090408@earthlink.net> Jag wrote: > On Mon, 2003-04-14 at 17:21, Philip Hart wrote: > >> >> >> >>Could someone enlighten me about Orlaan/Grita? She's Garland's daughter >>by Sennya, we learn in _FHYA_. On page 230 of that work, he instructs her >>to infiltrate Adron's encampment - apparently she is able to do so by >>doing something distasteful - presumably pass as a Dragon. > > > Am I the only person who thought that meant prostitution? Or is that > answer just to obvious? "Camp followers." It makes sense... Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From mtiller at ntlworld.com Thu Apr 17 06:48:23 2003 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 14:48:23 +0100 Subject: Test In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301c304e8$0699c390$0101a8c0@markspc> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi All, I have only been receiving email sporadically from the list, so I thought q test was in order. Regards Mark -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0 iQA/AwUBPp6wp9b/QPbG1aKPEQJduQCg7whi0G+PDcHYOuMPfsAtf7ttxQEAn0yk 1jq2nt4eDWjrmBLTP44dL6GB =jiRE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From warlord at dragon.com Thu Apr 17 06:56:59 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 09:56:59 -0400 Subject: Test In-Reply-To: <000301c304e8$0699c390$0101a8c0@markspc> Message-ID: > Hi All, > > I have only been receiving email sporadically from the list, so I > thought q test was in order. > Be vewy, vewy quiet. We're hunting dwagons. heh heh heh heh. W From rblackstock at ersgroup.com Thu Apr 17 06:59:37 2003 From: rblackstock at ersgroup.com (BLACKSTOCK, ROB) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 09:59:37 -0400 Subject: Test Message-ID: You know, I was beginning to think I was the only person signed up to this list. I see there's 3 of us... 1 more and we could be a cabal. -----Original Message----- From: Warlord [mailto:warlord at dragon.com] Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 9:57 AM To: Mark Tiller; dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: RE: Test > Hi All, > > I have only been receiving email sporadically from the list, so I > thought q test was in order. > Be vewy, vewy quiet. We're hunting dwagons. heh heh heh heh. W From mtiller at ntlworld.com Thu Apr 17 07:06:36 2003 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:06:36 +0100 Subject: Test In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c304ea$92190f00$0101a8c0@markspc> Yes, but do you WANT to be quiet hunting dragons? I mean if you're sneaking up on a 20 ton dragon, and you miss the 10 ton one behind you and THEN it wakes up...... :-) Mark -----Original Message----- From: Warlord [mailto:warlord at dragon.com] Sent: 17 April 2003 14:57 To: Mark Tiller; dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: RE: Test > Hi All, > > I have only been receiving email sporadically from the list, so I > thought q test was in order. > Be vewy, vewy quiet. We're hunting dwagons. heh heh heh heh. W From warlord at dragon.com Thu Apr 17 07:23:15 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 10:23:15 -0400 Subject: Test In-Reply-To: <000001c304ea$92190f00$0101a8c0@markspc> Message-ID: I use my trusty singing sword to lull them back to sleep. Anyway, I probably deserve to be caught because I am top-posting. W "Let there be dusk!" Phil from Heck, the Prince of Insufficient Light > Yes, but do you WANT to be quiet hunting dragons? I mean if you're > sneaking up on a 20 ton dragon, and you miss the 10 ton one behind you > and THEN it wakes up...... :-) > > Mark > > -----Original Message----- > From: Warlord [mailto:warlord at dragon.com] > Sent: 17 April 2003 14:57 > To: Mark Tiller; dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE: Test > > > > > Hi All, > > > > I have only been receiving email sporadically from the list, so I > > thought q test was in order. > > > > Be vewy, vewy quiet. We're hunting dwagons. heh heh heh heh. > > W > > > From warlord at dragon.com Thu Apr 17 07:40:47 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 10:40:47 -0400 Subject: Test In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > You know, I was beginning to think I was the only person signed up to > this list. > I see there's 3 of us... 1 more and we could be a cabal. *bristles* Who are you calling a cabal? Look, salads just aren't filling, and BBQ sauce doesn't go well with carrots. W Q. Does Usenet help stamp out ignorance? A. That depends on whether by "stamp out" you mean "eliminate" or "reproduce rapidly in great quantity." -- From the Usenet FAQ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Warlord [mailto:warlord at dragon.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 9:57 AM > To: Mark Tiller; dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE: Test > > > > > Hi All, > > > > I have only been receiving email sporadically from the list, so I > > thought q test was in order. > > > > Be vewy, vewy quiet. We're hunting dwagons. heh heh heh heh. > > W > From rblackstock at ersgroup.com Thu Apr 17 07:40:00 2003 From: rblackstock at ersgroup.com (BLACKSTOCK, ROB) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 10:40:00 -0400 Subject: Test Message-ID: > You know, I was beginning to think I was the only person signed up to > this list. I see there's 3 of us... 1 more and we could be a cabal. *bristles* Who are you calling a cabal? Look, salads just aren't filling, and BBQ sauce doesn't go well with carrots. W Hasenfeffer. From brian.vanskyock at zimmer.com Thu Apr 17 07:45:44 2003 From: brian.vanskyock at zimmer.com (Brian Vanskyock) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 09:45:44 -0500 Subject: Test References: Message-ID: <3E9EBE18.BAD5CE6@zimmer.com> a cabal it is then!!! do we get secret handshakes? b "BLACKSTOCK, ROB" wrote: > > You know, I was beginning to think I was the only person signed up to > > this list. I see there's 3 of us... 1 more and we could be a cabal. > > *bristles* Who are you calling a cabal? > Look, salads just aren't filling, and > BBQ sauce doesn't go well with carrots. > > W > > Hasenfeffer. From rblackstock at ersgroup.com Thu Apr 17 07:46:51 2003 From: rblackstock at ersgroup.com (BLACKSTOCK, ROB) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 10:46:51 -0400 Subject: Test Message-ID: Yes! And the secret phrase is, "the Larch." -----Original Message----- From: Brian Vanskyock [mailto:brian.vanskyock at zimmer.com] Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 10:46 AM To: vlad Subject: Re: Test a cabal it is then!!! do we get secret handshakes? b "BLACKSTOCK, ROB" wrote: > > You know, I was beginning to think I was the only person signed up > > to this list. I see there's 3 of us... 1 more and we could be a > > cabal. > > *bristles* Who are you calling a cabal? > Look, salads just aren't filling, and > BBQ sauce doesn't go well with carrots. > > W > > Hasenfeffer. From warlord at dragon.com Thu Apr 17 07:54:59 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 10:54:59 -0400 Subject: Test In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: BLACKSTOCK, ROB [mailto:rblackstock at ersgroup.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 10:40 > To: warlord at dragon.com; dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE: Test > > > > You know, I was beginning to think I was the only person signed up to > > this list. I see there's 3 of us... 1 more and we could be a cabal. > > *bristles* Who are you calling a cabal? > Look, salads just aren't filling, and > BBQ sauce doesn't go well with carrots. > > W > > > > Hasenfeffer. > gesundheit From egyptianbloom at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 11:34:10 2003 From: egyptianbloom at yahoo.com (-k-) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 11:34:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Test In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030417183410.2023.qmail@web21304.mail.yahoo.com> Q: what is it called if you have a fifth? --- Warlord wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: BLACKSTOCK, ROB > [mailto:rblackstock at ersgroup.com] > > Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 10:40 > > To: warlord at dragon.com; dragaera at dragaera.info > > Subject: RE: Test > > > > > > > You know, I was beginning to think I was the > only person signed up to > > > this list. I see there's 3 of us... 1 more and > we could be a cabal. > > > > *bristles* Who are you calling a cabal? > > Look, salads just aren't filling, and > > BBQ sauce doesn't go well with carrots. > > > > W > > > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From rblackstock at ersgroup.com Thu Apr 17 11:33:18 2003 From: rblackstock at ersgroup.com (BLACKSTOCK, ROB) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 14:33:18 -0400 Subject: Test Message-ID: Happy hour. -----Original Message----- From: -k- [mailto:egyptianbloom at yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 2:34 PM To: warlord at dragon.com; dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: RE: Test Q: what is it called if you have a fifth? --- Warlord wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: BLACKSTOCK, ROB > [mailto:rblackstock at ersgroup.com] > > Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 10:40 > > To: warlord at dragon.com; dragaera at dragaera.info > > Subject: RE: Test > > > > > > > You know, I was beginning to think I was the > only person signed up to > > > this list. I see there's 3 of us... 1 more and > we could be a cabal. > > > > *bristles* Who are you calling a cabal? > > Look, salads just aren't filling, and > > BBQ sauce doesn't go well with carrots. > > > > W > > > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From egyptianbloom at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 11:40:28 2003 From: egyptianbloom at yahoo.com (-k-) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 11:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Test In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030417184028.35697.qmail@web21307.mail.yahoo.com> Depends on who's serving... --- "BLACKSTOCK, ROB" wrote: > Happy hour. > > -----Original Message----- > From: -k- [mailto:egyptianbloom at yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 2:34 PM > To: warlord at dragon.com; dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE: Test > > > Q: what is it called if you have a fifth? > > > > --- Warlord wrote: > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: BLACKSTOCK, ROB > > [mailto:rblackstock at ersgroup.com] > > > Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 10:40 > > > To: warlord at dragon.com; dragaera at dragaera.info > > > Subject: RE: Test > > > > > > > > > > You know, I was beginning to think I was the > > only person signed up to > > > > this list. I see there's 3 of us... 1 more and > > we could be a cabal. > > > > > > *bristles* Who are you calling a cabal? > > > Look, salads just aren't filling, and > > > BBQ sauce doesn't go well with carrots. > > > > > > W > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From feetalsjeez at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 12:54:09 2003 From: feetalsjeez at yahoo.com (Tim Owen) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 12:54:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Test In-Reply-To: <20030417184028.35697.qmail@web21307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030417195409.69040.qmail@web40207.mail.yahoo.com> or what -k- wrote:Depends on who's serving... --- "BLACKSTOCK, ROB" wrote: > Happy hour. > > -----Original Message----- > From: -k- [mailto:egyptianbloom at yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 2:34 PM > To: warlord at dragon.com; dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE: Test > > > Q: what is it called if you have a fifth? > > > > --- Warlord wrote: > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: BLACKSTOCK, ROB > > [mailto:rblackstock at ersgroup.com] > > > Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 10:40 > > > To: warlord at dragon.com; dragaera at dragaera.info > > > Subject: RE: Test > > > > > > > > > > You know, I was beginning to think I was the > > only person signed up to > > > > this list. I see there's 3 of us... 1 more and > > we could be a cabal. > > > > > > *bristles* Who are you calling a cabal? > > > Look, salads just aren't filling, and > > > BBQ sauce doesn't go well with carrots. > > > > > > W > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. From warlord at dragon.com Thu Apr 17 13:01:36 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 16:01:36 -0400 Subject: Test In-Reply-To: <20030417183410.2023.qmail@web21304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Q: what is it called if you have a fifth? > A fine evening. I take mine straight on the rocks. W From eshivak at netzero.net Thu Apr 17 12:55:07 2003 From: eshivak at netzero.net (eshivak) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:55:07 -0400 Subject: Test In-Reply-To: <20030417195409.69040.qmail@web40207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ::KABONG:: When I say's WHOA! I MEANS WHOA! -----Original Message----- From: Warlord [mailto:warlord at dragon.com] Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 10:23 AM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: RE: Test I use my trusty singing sword to lull them back to sleep. Anyway, I probably deserve to be caught because I am top-posting. W "Let there be dusk!" Phil from Heck, the Prince of Insufficient Light > Yes, but do you WANT to be quiet hunting dragons? I mean if you're > sneaking up on a 20 ton dragon, and you miss the 10 ton one behind you > and THEN it wakes up...... :-) > > Mark > > -----Original Message----- > From: Warlord [mailto:warlord at dragon.com] > Sent: 17 April 2003 14:57 > To: Mark Tiller; dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE: Test > > > > > Hi All, > > > > I have only been receiving email sporadically from the list, so I > > thought q test was in order. > > > > Be vewy, vewy quiet. We're hunting dwagons. heh heh heh heh. > > W > > > From warlord at dragon.com Thu Apr 17 14:59:33 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 17:59:33 -0400 Subject: Test In-Reply-To: Message-ID: one two three Wait, wait, wait! Do we cut ON three, or is it one two three CUT ? W "Did you know that black paint is an excellent stain remover?" - Dogbert Tim Owen >From: "BLACKSTOCK, ROB" >To: "-k-" ,, >Subject: RE: Test >Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 14:33:18 -0400 > >Happy hour. > >-----Original Message----- >From: -k- [mailto:egyptianbloom at yahoo.com] >Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 2:34 PM >To: warlord at dragon.com; dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: RE: Test > > >Q: what is it called if you have a fifth? > > > >--- Warlord wrote: > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: BLACKSTOCK, ROB > > [mailto:rblackstock at ersgroup.com] > > > Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 10:40 > > > To: warlord at dragon.com; dragaera at dragaera.info > > > Subject: RE: Test > > > > > > > > > > You know, I was beginning to think I was the > > only person signed up to > > > > this list. I see there's 3 of us... 1 more and > > we could be a cabal. > > > > > > *bristles* Who are you calling a cabal? > > > Look, salads just aren't filling, and > > > BBQ sauce doesn't go well with carrots. > > > > > > W > > > > > > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* From dgf at dd-b.net Thu Apr 17 15:17:03 2003 From: dgf at dd-b.net (dgf at dd-b.net) Date: 17 Apr 2003 22:17:03 -0000 Subject: Dragaera subscriber list Message-ID: <20030417221703.28924.qmail@dd-b.net> acwest-dragaera (at) craigwest.net (email) "A. 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Nonymous" zaphod (at) charter.net (email) "Greg Schwartz" zarkon (at) illrepute.org (email) John Klein zizban (at) adelphia.net (email) Chris Turkel From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Apr 17 16:18:47 2003 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 19:18:47 -0400 Subject: Test In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello?? Computer?? On Thursday, April 17, 2003, at 05:59 PM, Warlord wrote: > one two three > > Wait, wait, wait! Do we cut ON three, or is it one two three CUT ? > > W > > "Did you know that black paint is an excellent stain remover?" > - Dogbert > > > > > > Tim Owen > > > >> From: "BLACKSTOCK, ROB" >> To: "-k-" ,, >> Subject: RE: Test >> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 14:33:18 -0400 >> >> Happy hour. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: -k- [mailto:egyptianbloom at yahoo.com] >> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 2:34 PM >> To: warlord at dragon.com; dragaera at dragaera.info >> Subject: RE: Test >> >> >> Q: what is it called if you have a fifth? >> >> >> >> --- Warlord wrote: >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: BLACKSTOCK, ROB >>> [mailto:rblackstock at ersgroup.com] >>>> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 10:40 >>>> To: warlord at dragon.com; dragaera at dragaera.info >>>> Subject: RE: Test >>>> >>>> >>>>> You know, I was beginning to think I was the >>> only person signed up to >>>>> this list. I see there's 3 of us... 1 more and >>> we could be a cabal. >>>> >>>> *bristles* Who are you calling a cabal? >>>> Look, salads just aren't filling, and >>>> BBQ sauce doesn't go well with carrots. >>>> >>>> W >>>> >>>> >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do you Yahoo!? >> The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > -- > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > --- "If they've already seen your best they can do without the rest, don't ya know."---James McMutry From egyptianbloom at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 21:23:28 2003 From: egyptianbloom at yahoo.com (-k-) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 21:23:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Test In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030418042328.13120.qmail@web21302.mail.yahoo.com> --- Warlord wrote: > > > Q: what is it called if you have a fifth? > > > > A fine evening. I take mine straight on the rocks. > > W I take mine straight in the bed __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From WyrmOuroboros at comcast.net Thu Apr 17 23:57:16 2003 From: WyrmOuroboros at comcast.net (Thomas FURNITURE ARTIST) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 02:57:16 -0400 Subject: Return to the list. Message-ID: So, after many and many a day, I return. ... stupid AOHell. Felix Eisen From electrictwilight at hotmail.com Fri Apr 18 09:02:18 2003 From: electrictwilight at hotmail.com (- Holly -) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 16:02:18 +0000 Subject: Southern California Dragaera/Brustian Meeting Message-ID: This will confirm that the Southern California Dragaera/Brustian meeting will take place as follows: Date: Saturday, April 26, 2003 Time: 11:00 a.m. Location: Old Town San Diego El Fandango Restaurant Please be advised that morganti weapons will need to be left at the door. Should you be carrying a great weapon we will take it into consideration and pending its strength and power, and your strength and power and house, we will make a determination whether it may be carried with you. If your great weapon does as you tell it then it will be treated as a regular weapon as a party may be revivified after death. Should Paarfi, the interpreter of Vlad, or the dimension traveling Steven Brust decide to show then it is advised that we will buy his dinner and all the Fennarian brandy he can drink in an adventitious effort to drink him under the table. Should he not show (and he is not expected, so don't count on it) then we will make extreme efforts to drink each other under the table and out wit each other on our knowledge of Dragaera. Reservations will be made today for 12 under the name Dragaera meeting. We at present have 7-8 people who plan to attend 5 of whom are from the list. The other three are the SO of another list member, my SO, and/or my cousin should he desire to attend as he lives only a few minutes outside of Old Towne. If you have any questions or plan to attend, or need to correct my understanding of the time and date we were planned to meet, please e-mail me at electrictwilight at hotmail.com and/or cc the dragaera list at dragaera at dragaera.info. Adieu, Holly @>-,-'-------- _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Fri Apr 18 19:40:51 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 22:40:51 -0400 Subject: Test References: Message-ID: <3EA0B733.8000505@earthlink.net> Warlord wrote: >>Q: what is it called if you have a fifth? >> > > > A fine evening. I take mine straight on the rocks. We'll be sure to hoist a few for you at what promises to be a fine evening indeed: the upcoming MA Dragaera dinner, also on the 26th. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From warlord at dragon.com Sat Apr 19 08:55:05 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 11:55:05 -0400 Subject: Test In-Reply-To: <3EA0B733.8000505@earthlink.net> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030419115229.031ce008@mail.dragon.com> At 22:40 4/18/2003 -0400, Jose Marquez wrote: >Warlord wrote: > >>Q: what is it called if you have a fifth? > >> > > > > > > A fine evening. I take mine straight on the rocks. > >We'll be sure to hoist a few for you at what promises to be a fine >evening indeed: the upcoming MA Dragaera dinner, also on the 26th. > >Jose >-- >Jose Marquez >jhereg69 at earthlink.net > Thnak you. *sigh* Calling all southeast hoisters. Anyone in Atlanta ? W Well, I've never been one to turn down a FIFTH." --- Aahz, Myth Adventures From WyrmOuroboros at comcast.net Sat Apr 19 21:04:23 2003 From: WyrmOuroboros at comcast.net (Thomas FURNITURE ARTIST) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 00:04:23 -0400 Subject: Test Message-ID: <10a975710acfdc.10acfdc10a9757@icomcast.net> > Thnak you. *sigh* Calling all southeast hoisters. Anyone in > Atlanta ? > > W Nope. Ft. Lauderdale, for what it's worth. -- Felix Eisen From egyptianbloom at yahoo.com Sun Apr 20 13:48:57 2003 From: egyptianbloom at yahoo.com (-k-) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 13:48:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Test In-Reply-To: <10a975710acfdc.10acfdc10a9757@icomcast.net> Message-ID: <20030420204857.74105.qmail@web21305.mail.yahoo.com> --- Thomas FURNITURE ARTIST wrote: > > Thnak you. *sigh* Calling all southeast > hoisters. Anyone in > > Atlanta ? > > > > W > > Nope. Ft. Lauderdale, for what it's worth. > > > -- > Felix Eisen > Jacksonville for me... __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Sun Apr 20 23:11:24 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 23:11:24 -0700 Subject: Southern California Dragaera/Brustian Meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Apr 2003 16:02:18 +0000, you wrote: >This will confirm that the Southern California Dragaera/Brustian meeting >will take place as follows: > >Date: Saturday, April 26, 2003 >Time: 11:00 a.m. >Location: Old Town San Diego > El Fandango Restaurant > Not sure if my previous message got through. I and my lady will be attending. BTW, we checked their website, and printed out an online coupon, 15% off for parties of 4 or more. :-) -- lazarus "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American Public." -- Theodore Roosevelt From rblackstock at ersgroup.com Mon Apr 21 05:13:46 2003 From: rblackstock at ersgroup.com (BLACKSTOCK, ROB) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 08:13:46 -0400 Subject: Test Message-ID: Tallahassee. -----Original Message----- From: Thomas FURNITURE ARTIST [mailto:WyrmOuroboros at comcast.net] Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 12:04 AM To: Dragaera Mailing List Subject: Re: Test > Thnak you. *sigh* Calling all southeast hoisters. Anyone in > Atlanta ? > > W Nope. Ft. Lauderdale, for what it's worth. -- Felix Eisen From bertowud at gator.net Mon Apr 21 06:11:49 2003 From: bertowud at gator.net (Robert Wood) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 09:11:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Test In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55335.209.208.44.34.1050930709.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> Oh, while we're at it: Ocala, FL > Tallahassee. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Thomas FURNITURE ARTIST [mailto:WyrmOuroboros at comcast.net] > Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 12:04 AM > To: Dragaera Mailing List > Subject: Re: Test > > >> Thnak you. *sigh* Calling all southeast hoisters. Anyone in >> Atlanta ? >> >> W > > Nope. Ft. Lauderdale, for what it's worth. > > > -- > Felix Eisen From rblackstock at ersgroup.com Mon Apr 21 06:12:28 2003 From: rblackstock at ersgroup.com (BLACKSTOCK, ROB) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 09:12:28 -0400 Subject: Test Message-ID: Hmmm... Maybe we can put together a Florida binge, er... meeting sometimes. -----Original Message----- From: Robert Wood [mailto:bertowud at gator.net] Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 9:12 AM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: RE: Test Oh, while we're at it: Ocala, FL > Tallahassee. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Thomas FURNITURE ARTIST [mailto:WyrmOuroboros at comcast.net] > Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 12:04 AM > To: Dragaera Mailing List > Subject: Re: Test > > >> Thnak you. *sigh* Calling all southeast hoisters. Anyone in >> Atlanta ? >> >> W > > Nope. Ft. Lauderdale, for what it's worth. > > > -- > Felix Eisen From jlblists at eljen.net Mon Apr 21 10:34:44 2003 From: jlblists at eljen.net (Jennifer Barber) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:34:44 -0500 Subject: Test Message-ID: <200304211234.AA6291778@eljen.net> >Thnak you. *sigh* Calling all southeast hoisters. Anyone in Atlanta ? Actually...yeah. jennifer From WyrmOuroboros at comcast.net Tue Apr 22 01:12:01 2003 From: WyrmOuroboros at comcast.net (Thomas FURNITURE ARTIST) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 04:12:01 -0400 Subject: Test Message-ID: <1446e1d14499e5.14499e51446e1d@icomcast.net> > Hmmm... Maybe we can put together a Florida binge, er... meeting > sometimes. Possibly, possibly. Forewarning, though, my 'mode of transporation' is neither camel, elephant, or '58 El Dorado, but rather a bicycle. So long as it's in Broward County somewhere, I can make it... :P :) -- Felix Eisen aka Thomas Crain "... NOT FURNATURE ARTIST!!! Geez, that annoys me..." From mtiller at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 22 03:59:14 2003 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 11:59:14 +0100 Subject: UK Meeting? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c308be$39ab9360$0101a8c0@markspc> Well, If you U.S. type people can have a meal, then I'm sure that there must be enough U.K. people to have a meal somewhere around London. (Not _necessarily_ binge...we are NOT like the americans :-) ) I'm in Welwyn Garden City on Herts. Mark -----Original Message----- From: BLACKSTOCK, ROB [mailto:rblackstock at ersgroup.com] Sent: 21 April 2003 14:12 To: Robert Wood; dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: RE: Test Hmmm... Maybe we can put together a Florida binge, er... meeting sometimes. -----Original Message----- From: Robert Wood [mailto:bertowud at gator.net] Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 9:12 AM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: RE: Test Oh, while we're at it: Ocala, FL > Tallahassee. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Thomas FURNITURE ARTIST [mailto:WyrmOuroboros at comcast.net] > Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 12:04 AM > To: Dragaera Mailing List > Subject: Re: Test > > >> Thnak you. *sigh* Calling all southeast hoisters. Anyone in >> Atlanta ? >> >> W > > Nope. Ft. Lauderdale, for what it's worth. > > > -- > Felix Eisen From rblackstock at ersgroup.com Tue Apr 22 05:14:56 2003 From: rblackstock at ersgroup.com (BLACKSTOCK, ROB) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 08:14:56 -0400 Subject: Test Message-ID: Where's Broward? I haven't lived in Florida long enough to have memorized the counties. -----Original Message----- From: Thomas FURNITURE ARTIST [mailto:WyrmOuroboros at comcast.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 4:12 AM To: Dragaera Mailing List Subject: Re: RE: Test > Hmmm... Maybe we can put together a Florida binge, er... meeting > sometimes. Possibly, possibly. Forewarning, though, my 'mode of transporation' is neither camel, elephant, or '58 El Dorado, but rather a bicycle. So long as it's in Broward County somewhere, I can make it... :P :) -- Felix Eisen aka Thomas Crain "... NOT FURNATURE ARTIST!!! Geez, that annoys me..." From rblackstock at ersgroup.com Tue Apr 22 05:21:25 2003 From: rblackstock at ersgroup.com (BLACKSTOCK, ROB) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 08:21:25 -0400 Subject: UK Meeting? Message-ID: Wow. A meal invitation and a slam against the Americans all in one e-mail. You're talented. -----Original Message----- From: Mark Tiller [mailto:mtiller at ntlworld.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 6:59 AM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: UK Meeting? Well, If you U.S. type people can have a meal, then I'm sure that there must be enough U.K. people to have a meal somewhere around London. (Not _necessarily_ binge...we are NOT like the americans :-) ) I'm in Welwyn Garden City on Herts. Mark -----Original Message----- From: BLACKSTOCK, ROB [mailto:rblackstock at ersgroup.com] Sent: 21 April 2003 14:12 To: Robert Wood; dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: RE: Test Hmmm... Maybe we can put together a Florida binge, er... meeting sometimes. -----Original Message----- From: Robert Wood [mailto:bertowud at gator.net] Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 9:12 AM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: RE: Test Oh, while we're at it: Ocala, FL > Tallahassee. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Thomas FURNITURE ARTIST [mailto:WyrmOuroboros at comcast.net] > Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 12:04 AM > To: Dragaera Mailing List > Subject: Re: Test > > >> Thnak you. *sigh* Calling all southeast hoisters. Anyone in >> Atlanta ? >> >> W > > Nope. Ft. Lauderdale, for what it's worth. > > > -- > Felix Eisen From bertowud at gator.net Tue Apr 22 05:35:07 2003 From: bertowud at gator.net (Robert Wood) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 08:35:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Test In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59954.209.208.44.34.1051014907.squirrel@webmail.gator.net> Broward County is in southeast Florida. It's just north of Dade County. Robert > Where's Broward? I haven't lived in Florida long enough to have > memorized the counties. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Thomas FURNITURE ARTIST [mailto:WyrmOuroboros at comcast.net] > Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 4:12 AM > To: Dragaera Mailing List > Subject: Re: RE: Test > > >> Hmmm... Maybe we can put together a Florida binge, er... meeting >> sometimes. > > Possibly, possibly. Forewarning, though, my 'mode of transporation' is > neither camel, elephant, or '58 El Dorado, but rather a bicycle. So > long as it's in Broward County somewhere, I can make it... :P :) > > > -- > Felix Eisen > aka Thomas Crain > "... NOT FURNATURE ARTIST!!! Geez, that annoys me..." From jalipaz at stanford.edu Tue Apr 22 09:15:15 2003 From: jalipaz at stanford.edu (Julie Alipaz) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 09:15:15 -0700 Subject: UK Meeting? Message-ID: oh come now that is not really so difficult, we americans are after all rather big targets! >Wow. A meal invitation and a slam against the Americans all in one >e-mail. You're talented. > -- Department of Biological Sciences Palumbi Lab Hopkins Marine Station of Stanford University Blinks Oceanview Blvd Pacific Grove, Ca 93950 jalipaz at stanford.edu phone: 831-655-6210 Often statistics are used as drunken men use lampposts... for support rather than illumination. Albert Einstein From rblackstock at ersgroup.com Tue Apr 22 09:43:40 2003 From: rblackstock at ersgroup.com (BLACKSTOCK, ROB) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 12:43:40 -0400 Subject: UK Meeting? Message-ID: >oh come now that is not really so difficult, we americans are after >all rather big targets! Yeah... My wife (who is Soviet) blames it all on America's love of white bread. Btw... I like your signature quote. When I was in graduate school we often quoted Baron Courtney who said (approximately), "there are lies, damned lies... and then there are statistics." >Wow. A meal invitation and a slam against the Americans all in one >e-mail. You're talented. > -- Department of Biological Sciences Palumbi Lab Hopkins Marine Station of Stanford University Blinks Oceanview Blvd Pacific Grove, Ca 93950 jalipaz at stanford.edu phone: 831-655-6210 Often statistics are used as drunken men use lampposts... for support rather than illumination. Albert Einstein From warlord at dragon.com Tue Apr 22 12:08:45 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 15:08:45 -0400 Subject: UK Meeting? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >oh come now that is not really so difficult, we americans are after > >all rather big targets! > > Yeah... My wife (who is Soviet) blames it all on America's love of white > bread. > Btw... I like your signature quote. When I was in graduate school we > often quoted Baron Courtney who said (approximately), "there are lies, > damned lies... and then there are statistics." > > Regardless, 42% of all statistics are useless. W From den at monger.net Tue Apr 22 12:21:26 2003 From: den at monger.net (den at monger.net) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 12:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UK Meeting? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4636.12.124.4.118.1051039286.squirrel@monger.net> > >> >oh come now that is not really so difficult, we americans are after >> >all rather big targets! >> >> Yeah... My wife (who is Soviet) blames it all on America's love of white >> bread. >> Btw... I like your signature quote. When I was in graduate school we >> often quoted Baron Courtney who said (approximately), "there are lies, >> damned lies... and then there are statistics." > Regardless, 42% of all statistics are useless. Actually, 63% of all statistics are made up on the spot. -Dennis From warlord at dragon.com Tue Apr 22 12:27:28 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 15:27:28 -0400 Subject: UK Meeting? In-Reply-To: <4636.12.124.4.118.1051039286.squirrel@monger.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: den at monger.net [mailto:den at monger.net] > Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 15:21 > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE: UK Meeting? > > > > > >> >oh come now that is not really so difficult, we americans are after > >> >all rather big targets! > >> > >> Yeah... My wife (who is Soviet) blames it all on America's > love of white > >> bread. > >> Btw... I like your signature quote. When I was in graduate school we > >> often quoted Baron Courtney who said (approximately), "there are lies, > >> damned lies... and then there are statistics." > > > Regardless, 42% of all statistics are useless. > > Actually, 63% of all statistics are made up on the spot. > Having known you as long as I have, I can say without a doubt you are at least 51% correct 63% of the time. W From mtiller at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 22 12:41:39 2003 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 20:41:39 +0100 Subject: UK Meeting? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000a01c30907$374a40a0$0101a8c0@markspc> -----Original Message----- From: BLACKSTOCK, ROB [mailto:rblackstock at ersgroup.com] Sent: 22 April 2003 13:21 To: Mark Tiller; dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: RE: UK Meeting? >Wow. A meal invitation and a slam against the Americans all in one e-mail. You're talented. But hey, in truth I'm not like the english either, I just live here...Tassie born. Mark From mtiller at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 22 12:46:36 2003 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 20:46:36 +0100 Subject: Off Topic- Help! Anybody know anything about FTP on IIS 5.1 In-Reply-To: <000a01c30907$374a40a0$0101a8c0@markspc> Message-ID: <000b01c30907$e7d93a20$0101a8c0@markspc> Pardon the off topic, but if anybody knows anything about FTP on IIS 5.1 can they send me a private email, I'm getting driven nuts by a problem I can't solve. Thanks Mark From tim at radarradar.com Tue Apr 22 18:03:06 2003 From: tim at radarradar.com (Tim Wilson) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 18:03:06 -0700 Subject: UK Meeting? References: <4636.12.124.4.118.1051039286.squirrel@monger.net> Message-ID: <003601c30934$1a27a120$5a4b7843@Beeler> and 72% of statistics are wrong ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 12:21 PM Subject: RE: UK Meeting? > > > >> >oh come now that is not really so difficult, we americans are after > >> >all rather big targets! > >> > >> Yeah... My wife (who is Soviet) blames it all on America's love of white > >> bread. > >> Btw... I like your signature quote. When I was in graduate school we > >> often quoted Baron Courtney who said (approximately), "there are lies, > >> damned lies... and then there are statistics." > > > Regardless, 42% of all statistics are useless. > > Actually, 63% of all statistics are made up on the spot. > > -Dennis > From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Apr 22 18:17:21 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 18:17:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UK Meeting? In-Reply-To: <003601c30934$1a27a120$5a4b7843@Beeler> References: <4636.12.124.4.118.1051039286.squirrel@monger.net> <003601c30934$1a27a120$5a4b7843@Beeler> Message-ID: If we're going to beat this to death, I might as well pile on by pointing out that the quote below attributed to Courtney is in the form Twain attributed to Disraeli but (according to the web) was actually quoted by J.A. Baines as being Courtney's quotation of the words of a mythical Wise Stateman. On Tue, 22 Apr 2003, Tim Wilson wrote: > and 72% of statistics are wrong > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 12:21 PM > Subject: RE: UK Meeting? > > > > > > > >> >oh come now that is not really so difficult, we americans are after > > >> >all rather big targets! > > >> > > >> Yeah... My wife (who is Soviet) blames it all on America's love of > white > > >> bread. > > >> Btw... I like your signature quote. When I was in graduate school we > > >> often quoted Baron Courtney who said (approximately), "there are lies, > > >> damned lies... and then there are statistics." > > > > > Regardless, 42% of all statistics are useless. > > > > Actually, 63% of all statistics are made up on the spot. > > > > -Dennis > > > > From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Tue Apr 22 23:58:42 2003 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 01:58:42 -0500 Subject: UK Meeting? References: <4636.12.124.4.118.1051039286.squirrel@monger.net> <003601c30934$1a27a120$5a4b7843@Beeler> Message-ID: 100% of our statistics are wrong, I think, though if you include this one 75% of them are -- but then this one is wrong as well, so you see I can't seem to figure these things out and like any decent American I just decide to ignore them unless I can use them to spout nonsense like this. > and 72% of statistics are wrong > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 12:21 PM > Subject: RE: UK Meeting? > > > > > > > >> >oh come now that is not really so difficult, we americans are after > > >> >all rather big targets! > > >> > > >> Yeah... My wife (who is Soviet) blames it all on America's love of > white > > >> bread. > > >> Btw... I like your signature quote. When I was in graduate school we > > >> often quoted Baron Courtney who said (approximately), "there are lies, > > >> damned lies... and then there are statistics." > > > > > Regardless, 42% of all statistics are useless. > > > > Actually, 63% of all statistics are made up on the spot. > > > > -Dennis > > > > From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Wed Apr 23 03:08:44 2003 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 03:08:44 -0700 Subject: BEST KNOCK-KNOCK JOKE EVER. Message-ID: <200304230308.AA172491260@amish2000.com> Although I can't take credit for it; it belongs to my friend Skye, whom I have just gotten to read DRAGON and is prepared to go to the ends of the earth to get the rest of the Dragaera books. "Knock knock!" "Who's there?" "Daymar." "Daymar who?" "... where are we going?" HA HA HA HA! ? MJ, not going to Vlad's office From tmer at eudoramail.com Fri Apr 25 06:02:14 2003 From: tmer at eudoramail.com (Barbara Baj) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:02:14 -0400 Subject: Testing? Message-ID: Been quiet for a few days. Is the list down, quiet or is my mail account acting up? - Barbara Need a new email address that people can remember Check out the new EudoraMail at http://www.eudoramail.com From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Apr 25 06:45:06 2003 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:45:06 -0400 Subject: Testing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1FA72D8A-7724-11D7-8A7D-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> Quiet :) On Friday, April 25, 2003, at 09:02 AM, Barbara Baj wrote: > Been quiet for a few days. Is the list down, quiet or is my mail > account acting up? > > - Barbara > > > Need a new email address that people can remember > Check out the new EudoraMail at > http://www.eudoramail.com > > --- "Everybody generalizes from one example. At least, I do."--Steven Brust From zarkon at illrepute.org Fri Apr 25 07:22:54 2003 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:22:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Testing? In-Reply-To: <1FA72D8A-7724-11D7-8A7D-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Apr 2003, Chris Turkel wrote: @> > Been quiet for a few days. Is the list down, quiet or is my mail @> > account acting up? @> @> Quiet :) See, this is what happens when people stop arguing about politics and religion! Quick, somebody say something inflammatory. From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Apr 25 07:33:20 2003 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:33:20 -0400 Subject: Testing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Friday, April 25, 2003, at 10:22 AM, John Klein wrote: > See, this is what happens when people stop arguing about politics and > religion! Quick, somebody say something inflammatory. Uh, Go Braves!!! --- "If they've already seen your best they can do without the rest, don't ya know."---James McMutry From frank at exit.com Fri Apr 25 07:31:27 2003 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 07:31:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Testing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200304251431.h3PEVRsw037385@realtime.exit.com> John Klein wrote: > See, this is what happens when people stop arguing about politics and > religion! Quick, somebody say something inflammatory. "Something inflammatory." Glad I could help. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From zarkon at illrepute.org Fri Apr 25 07:36:22 2003 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:36:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Testing? In-Reply-To: <200304251431.h3PEVRsw037385@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Apr 2003, Frank Mayhar wrote: @> > See, this is what happens when people stop arguing about politics and @> > religion! Quick, somebody say something inflammatory. @> @> "Something inflammatory." @> @> Glad I could help. Hm. Nine minutes. I would have thought five at most. From rone at ennui.org Fri Apr 25 07:37:51 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (circadian rhyme) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 07:37:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Testing? In-Reply-To: from Barbara Baj at "Apr 25, 2003 09:02:14 am" Message-ID: <20030425143751.E024726E3B@boredom.ennui.org> Barbara Baj writes: Been quiet for a few days. Is the list down, quiet or is my mail account acting up? This sort of e-mail is quickly becoming a list tradition... rone -- "Alan Alda's all we are." - Kurt Cobain From frank at exit.com Fri Apr 25 07:40:02 2003 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 07:40:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Testing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200304251440.h3PEe28Z037630@realtime.exit.com> John Klein wrote: > On Fri, 25 Apr 2003, Frank Mayhar wrote: > @> > See, this is what happens when people stop arguing about politics and > @> > religion! Quick, somebody say something inflammatory. > @> > @> "Something inflammatory." > @> > @> Glad I could help. > > Hm. Nine minutes. I would have thought five at most. Hey, it's early. I haven't even had my second cup of coffee yet. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From zizban at adelphia.net Fri Apr 25 07:44:01 2003 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:44:01 -0400 Subject: Testing? In-Reply-To: <200304251440.h3PEe28Z037630@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <5A9D6E86-772C-11D7-8A7D-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> On Friday, April 25, 2003, at 10:40 AM, Frank Mayhar wrote: > John Klein wrote: >> On Fri, 25 Apr 2003, Frank Mayhar wrote: >> @> > See, this is what happens when people stop arguing about >> politics and >> @> > religion! Quick, somebody say something inflammatory. >> @> >> @> "Something inflammatory." >> @> >> @> Glad I could help. >> >> Hm. Nine minutes. I would have thought five at most. > > Hey, it's early. I haven't even had my second cup of coffee yet. Slacker. I've been up since 8am :) ---- "Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself (I am large, I contain multitudes)."--Walt Whitman From warlord at dragon.com Fri Apr 25 07:55:33 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:55:33 -0400 Subject: Testing? In-Reply-To: <20030425143751.E024726E3B@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: circadian rhyme [mailto:rone at ennui.org] > Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 10:38 > To: SKZB List > Subject: Re: Testing? > > > Barbara Baj writes: > Been quiet for a few days. Is the list down, quiet or is my mail > account acting up? > > This sort of e-mail is quickly becoming a list tradition... > On this list we extrapolate from an example of one, so why not ? W Statistically speaking, this comment isn't due yet. From rblackstock at ersgroup.com Fri Apr 25 07:51:19 2003 From: rblackstock at ersgroup.com (BLACKSTOCK, ROB) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:51:19 -0400 Subject: Testing? Message-ID: > Hey, it's early. I haven't even had my second cup of coffee yet. Slacker. I've been up since 8am :) ---- 8 am!? Lucky B*****d! I have to get up at 5 every morning. From casey at trinityhartford.org Fri Apr 25 07:29:06 2003 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:29:06 -0400 Subject: I have an extra copy of The Paths of the Dead Message-ID: I had an ordering mix-up back in the fall that resulted in my accidentally purchasing two copies. One from Amazon and one through Baker & Taylor. I know that there are several people who mentioned during the spoiler discussion that for whatever reason, they had not yet obtained a copy. Which of the following should I do: 1) Donate it to a local public library. 2) Give it to someone on this list, based on whim and past posts to this list. 3) Hold some sort "contest" to determine the recipient (essay, fastest response, random selection, follow directions, etc.) 4) Establish a permanent lending copy, put a dedication in the book requiring it to be sent along to a list of people. When the list is exhausted, the book would be returned to me. At that point, I'd probably donate my other copy to a local library. I'm leaning toward the last of these. Any thoughts? Should I establish some qualifications for inclusion in the list of people? If so, what should they be? Casey From zarkon at illrepute.org Fri Apr 25 08:05:40 2003 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:05:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Testing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Apr 2003, BLACKSTOCK, ROB wrote: @> > > Hey, it's early. I haven't even had my second cup of coffee yet. @> > Slacker. I've been up since 8am :) @> @> 8 am!? @> Lucky B*****d! @> I have to get up at 5 every morning. I can beat that! I get up at 2! No, wait, that's when I go to sleep. From feaelin at kemenel.org Fri Apr 25 08:32:53 2003 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Iain E. Davis) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:32:53 -0500 Subject: I have an extra copy of The Paths of the Dead In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c30b3f$f04402a0$6501a8c0@Khaavren> Casy Wrote: > 4) Establish a permanent lending copy, put a dedication in > the book requiring it to be sent along to a list of people. > When the list is exhausted, the book would be returned to me. > At that point, I'd probably donate my other copy to a local library. Interesting idea. I'd be inclined toward this one, possibly with an eye for it going on indefinitely.. How far out of your area were you thinking? I wouldn't be surprised if you could come up with an easy list from the list members, since I believe there are folks who haven't had access to a copy yet (for whatever reason). From rblackstock at ersgroup.com Fri Apr 25 08:37:36 2003 From: rblackstock at ersgroup.com (BLACKSTOCK, ROB) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:37:36 -0400 Subject: I have an extra copy of The Paths of the Dead Message-ID: I don't know... Loaning out the books rather than have everyone buy their own copy may seriously compromise SB's goal of one day playing $100-$200 hold'em. Do we really want that on our conscience? -----Original Message----- From: Iain E. Davis [mailto:feaelin at kemenel.org] Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 11:33 AM To: 'Casey Rousseau'; 'Dragaera' Subject: RE: I have an extra copy of The Paths of the Dead Casy Wrote: > 4) Establish a permanent lending copy, put a dedication in > the book requiring it to be sent along to a list of people. > When the list is exhausted, the book would be returned to me. > At that point, I'd probably donate my other copy to a local library. Interesting idea. I'd be inclined toward this one, possibly with an eye for it going on indefinitely.. How far out of your area were you thinking? I wouldn't be surprised if you could come up with an easy list from the list members, since I believe there are folks who haven't had access to a copy yet (for whatever reason). From books at bofh.com Fri Apr 25 08:56:09 2003 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 08:56:09 -0700 Subject: Testing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030425155609.GA26466@bofh.com> > @> > > Hey, it's early. I haven't even had my second cup of coffee yet. > @> > Slacker. I've been up since 8am :) > @> > @> 8 am!? > @> Lucky B*****d! > @> I have to get up at 5 every morning. > > I can beat that! I get up at 2! > > No, wait, that's when I go to sleep. You can all bite me. I work from 10:00 pm to 10:00 am. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From warlord at dragon.com Fri Apr 25 09:01:53 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:01:53 -0400 Subject: Testing? In-Reply-To: <20030425155609.GA26466@bofh.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Jot Powers [mailto:books at bofh.com] > Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 11:56 > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Testing? > > > > @> > > Hey, it's early. I haven't even had my second cup of coffee yet. > > @> > Slacker. I've been up since 8am :) > > @> > > @> 8 am!? > > @> Lucky B*****d! > > @> I have to get up at 5 every morning. > > > > I can beat that! I get up at 2! > > > > No, wait, that's when I go to sleep. > > You can all bite me. I work from 10:00 pm to 10:00 am. > Down, MJ, DOWN. It was a euphemism! W "Think positively, act positively, and never leave fingerprints." From rblackstock at ersgroup.com Fri Apr 25 09:19:26 2003 From: rblackstock at ersgroup.com (BLACKSTOCK, ROB) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:19:26 -0400 Subject: Testing? Message-ID: You can all bite me. I work from 10:00 pm to 10:00 am. -Jot -- Ok, I'll bite... What kind of job has you on a 12 hour night-shift? From books at bofh.com Fri Apr 25 09:29:58 2003 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:29:58 -0700 Subject: Testing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030425162958.GA26815@bofh.com> On Fri, Apr 25, 2003 at 12:19:26PM -0400, BLACKSTOCK, ROB wrote: > Ok, I'll bite... What kind of job has you on a 12 hour night-shift? I'm a Unix Systems Administrator for a large financial company that provides support to their internal customers 7x24. The bad news is that I work the 12 hour overnight. The good news is that it's only 3 days a week. :) -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From rblackstock at ersgroup.com Fri Apr 25 09:36:56 2003 From: rblackstock at ersgroup.com (BLACKSTOCK, ROB) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:36:56 -0400 Subject: Testing? Message-ID: I don't have to work overnight, but I do have to put in between 60 and 80 hours per week. I think you have the better deal by far. -----Original Message----- From: Jot Powers [mailto:books at bofh.com] Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 12:30 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Testing? On Fri, Apr 25, 2003 at 12:19:26PM -0400, BLACKSTOCK, ROB wrote: > Ok, I'll bite... What kind of job has you on a 12 hour night-shift? I'm a Unix Systems Administrator for a large financial company that provides support to their internal customers 7x24. The bad news is that I work the 12 hour overnight. The good news is that it's only 3 days a week. :) -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From zarkon at illrepute.org Fri Apr 25 09:45:10 2003 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:45:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Testing? In-Reply-To: <20030425162958.GA26815@bofh.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Apr 2003, Jot Powers wrote: @> > Ok, I'll bite... What kind of job has you on a 12 hour night-shift? @> @> I'm a Unix Systems Administrator Knew it. From warlord at dragon.com Fri Apr 25 09:51:32 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:51:32 -0400 Subject: Testing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: John Klein [mailto:zarkon at illrepute.org] > Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 12:45 > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Testing? > > > On Fri, 25 Apr 2003, Jot Powers wrote: > > @> > Ok, I'll bite... What kind of job has you on a 12 hour night-shift? > @> > @> I'm a Unix Systems Administrator > > Knew it. > I gnu it too. W HELO, my name is sendmail.cf. You SIGKILLed my shell. Prepare to vi. From rblackstock at ersgroup.com Fri Apr 25 09:48:06 2003 From: rblackstock at ersgroup.com (BLACKSTOCK, ROB) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:48:06 -0400 Subject: Testing? Message-ID: > night-shift? @> @> I'm a Unix Systems Administrator > > Knew it. > I gnu it too. Is there a support group for recovering systems administrators? From books at bofh.com Fri Apr 25 09:54:59 2003 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:54:59 -0700 Subject: Testing? In-Reply-To: References: <20030425162958.GA26815@bofh.com> Message-ID: <20030425165459.GA26955@bofh.com> On Fri, Apr 25, 2003 at 12:45:10PM -0400, John Klein wrote: > On Fri, 25 Apr 2003, Jot Powers wrote: > > @> > Ok, I'll bite... What kind of job has you on a 12 hour night-shift? > @> > @> I'm a Unix Systems Administrator > > Knew it. From: Jot Powers ^^^^^^^^ I'm sure that wasn't a clue. :) -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From warlord at dragon.com Fri Apr 25 09:55:15 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:55:15 -0400 Subject: Testing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: BLACKSTOCK, ROB [mailto:rblackstock at ersgroup.com] > Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 12:48 > To: warlord at dragon.com; dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE: Testing? > > > > > night-shift? @> @> I'm a Unix Systems Administrator > > > > Knew it. > > > > I gnu it too. > > > Is there a support group for recovering systems administrators? > Sure. alt.sysadmin Of course. W "Whap! Whap! Work you damn program! Whap! Oh, look, salad!" -- Otavia Propper '00, in response to the question of what would happen if one tried to fix a program using a cucumber. From books at bofh.com Fri Apr 25 09:56:25 2003 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:56:25 -0700 Subject: Testing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030425165625.GB26955@bofh.com> > > Is there a support group for recovering systems administrators? > > Sure. alt.sysadmin a.s.r, even. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Apr 25 09:58:43 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:58:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Testing? Message-ID: <200304251658.h3PGwg714550@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > 8 am!? > Lucky B*****d! > I have to get up at 5 every morning. 5AM?!? Dear god, man, why?!? Only time I see 5AM is when I haven't gone to sleep yet! My heart goes out to you. It should be against the law to have to get up that early.... Chris (Who'd love to make some laws....;) "He is a lover of his country who rebukes and does not excuse its sins." - Frederick Douglass From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Apr 25 10:01:19 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:01:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I have an extra copy of The Paths of the Dead Message-ID: <200304251701.h3PH1J715022@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > 4) Establish a permanent lending copy, put a dedication in the book > requiring it to be sent along to a list of people. When the list is > exhausted, the book would be returned to me. At that point, I'd probably > donate my other copy to a local library. I like this idea. It reminds me of a camera that was being passed around at an Irish pub I go to. The camera had and address and postage on it, and the words "Take a couple of pictures and pass this camera to someone else. When the last shot has been taken, drop it in a mailbox. The pictures will be up at www.__...." I thought it was interesting. So, yeah, I like this idea! It's different. Cheers! Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From rblackstock at ersgroup.com Fri Apr 25 10:00:03 2003 From: rblackstock at ersgroup.com (BLACKSTOCK, ROB) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:00:03 -0400 Subject: Testing? Message-ID: > 8 am!? > Lucky B*****d! > I have to get up at 5 every morning. 5AM?!? Dear god, man, why?!? I need to be in the office by 7:30, so if I want to go to the gym it has to be before then. I'm just too damn tired to do it in the evenings. From rblackstock at ersgroup.com Fri Apr 25 10:01:03 2003 From: rblackstock at ersgroup.com (BLACKSTOCK, ROB) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:01:03 -0400 Subject: On topic Message-ID: All right... I have a question for you guys which is (gasp!) actually on topic! Has there ever been an explanation for the change in the language style between the anti-interregnum and the Taltos era? Or, did the language style not change, but had simply been "enhanced" by Parfii in his romances? -----Original Message----- From: Jot Powers [mailto:books at bofh.com] Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 12:56 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Testing? > > Is there a support group for recovering systems administrators? > > Sure. alt.sysadmin a.s.r, even. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From warlord at dragon.com Fri Apr 25 10:09:39 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:09:39 -0400 Subject: On topic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > All right... I have a question for you guys which is (gasp!) actually on > topic! > > Has there ever been an explanation for the change in the language style > between the anti-interregnum and the Taltos era? Or, did the language > style not change, but had simply been "enhanced" by Parfii in his > romances? > > Steve moved to Las Vegas ? W "Verbing weirds language" -- Calvin and Hobbs From casey at trinityhartford.org Fri Apr 25 09:33:23 2003 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:33:23 -0400 Subject: I have an extra copy of The Paths of the Dead In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Iain E. Davis asked: > How far out of your area were you thinking? I wouldn't be surprised if > you could come up with an easy list from the list members, since I > believe there are folks who haven't had access to a copy yet (for > whatever reason). I was planning to pretty much restrict it to members of this list. I have some vague ideas of asking people to state that they intend to purchase a copy in the future, but that they are unable to do so at this time. As for how far out of the area, I was looking for some feedback first, but the idea I had was to ask everyone to commit to paying for postage to send the book to the next person on the list. I'd probably send it to the farthest person myself first and arrange the list in a least cost order to the extent that distance would factor into the shipping cost. BLACKSTOCK, ROB wrote: > I don't know... Loaning out the books rather than have everyone buy > their own copy may seriously compromise SB's goal of one day playing > $100-$200 hold'em. > Do we really want that on our conscience? a) I am soliciting reaction to an idea before implementing it. If, for example, Steve were to ask me not to pursue this option, I would honor that request. b) I bought an extra hardcover copy within days of it being available. To the extent that I can, I have already contributed to the demand curve for Steve's books. I'll note that I have been purchasing his books since 1983 and have four of them in hard cover, plus omnibus trade paper editions for rereading (and lending) the Ace Vlad novels, because my first printing paperbacks are too precious and fragile to continue to read. c) I presume that members of this list want to reread the texts often enough to eventually purchase a copy when finances and availability permit. Hmm. Looks like the mass-market edition will be available in August. $8. d) I've waited several months. I was originally going to give the extra copy to a friend for Christmas. They bought a copy for themselves. e) I doubt I'd do this again. I can't afford to buy multiple hardcover copies of every book. From akodobob at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 25 10:59:27 2003 From: akodobob at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:59:27 -0700 Subject: No Women, No Kids References: Message-ID: <007501c30b54$6e518320$6401a8c0@DELL1> Hey all, I just saw the movie "Leon the Professional." And it got me thinking. Leon is a hitman and describes the "hitman code" which specifically proscribes against killing Woman or Children. Has Vlad ever worked on a Woman or a Kid? Well I'm pretty damn sure never on a kid, but as Dragaera seems to be a much more innately equalitarian culture, I wondered if the same sort of convention existed within the Jhereg. Akodo Bob -Who thinks it ironic that the most messages on the list server are about complaints that no one talks on it. From mr1 at rcosta.com Fri Apr 25 11:04:00 2003 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:04:00 -0400 Subject: No Women, No Kids In-Reply-To: <007501c30b54$6e518320$6401a8c0@DELL1> Message-ID: <3EA94050.24276.FFF670@localhost> On 25 Apr 2003 at 10:59, Bob wrote > Hey all, I just saw the movie "Leon the Professional." And it got me > thinking. Leon is a hitman and describes the "hitman code" which > specifically proscribes against killing Woman or Children. Has Vlad > ever worked on a Woman or a Kid? Well I'm pretty damn sure never on a > kid, but as Dragaera seems to be a much more innately equalitarian > culture, I wondered if the same sort of convention existed within the > Jhereg. > > > Akodo Bob > -Who thinks it ironic that the most messages on the list server are > about complaints that no one talks on it. Didn't he take out several sorceresses of the Left Hand shortly before creating a pool of chaos? It wasn't a contracted hit, so it might not be covered under the "hitman's code". M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From nytemuse at auros.org Fri Apr 25 12:00:57 2003 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:00:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: No Women, No Kids In-Reply-To: <3EA94050.24276.FFF670@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Apr 2003, Michele Riccio wrote: > On 25 Apr 2003 at 10:59, Bob wrote > > Hey all, I just saw the movie "Leon the Professional." And it got me > > thinking. Leon is a hitman and describes the "hitman code" which > > specifically proscribes against killing Woman or Children. Has Vlad > > ever worked on a Woman or a Kid? Well I'm pretty damn sure never on a > > kid, but as Dragaera seems to be a much more innately equalitarian > > culture, I wondered if the same sort of convention existed within the > > Jhereg. > > > > > > Akodo Bob > > -Who thinks it ironic that the most messages on the list server are > > about complaints that no one talks on it. > > Didn't he take out several sorceresses of the Left Hand shortly > before creating a pool of chaos? It wasn't a contracted hit, so it > might not be covered under the "hitman's code". I also suspect he wouldn't mind taking out StY, if the opportunity arose... ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From casey at trinityhartford.org Fri Apr 25 11:13:12 2003 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:13:12 -0400 Subject: No Women, No Kids In-Reply-To: <007501c30b54$6e518320$6401a8c0@DELL1> Message-ID: Akodo Bob wrote: > Hey all, I just saw the movie "Leon the Professional." And it got me > thinking. Leon is a hitman and describes the "hitman code" which > specifically proscribes against killing Woman or Children. Has Vlad ever > worked on a Woman or a Kid? Well I'm pretty damn sure never on a kid, but > as Dragaera seems to be a much more innately equalitarian culture, I > wondered if the same sort of convention existed within the Jhereg. He definitely ordered at least a couple hits on women. I can't recall him saying one way or another about personally working on any women. Remember they are fewer women on the Organization side and for the most part 'work' is an internal Organization thing. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Fri Apr 25 13:07:09 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:07:09 -0400 Subject: No Women, No Kids (mild Phoenix spoilers) References: Message-ID: <3EA9956D.8040009@earthlink.net> Casey Rousseau wrote: > Akodo Bob wrote: > >>Hey all, I just saw the movie "Leon the Professional." And it got me >>thinking. Leon is a hitman and describes the "hitman code" which >>specifically proscribes against killing Woman or Children. Has Vlad ever >>worked on a Woman or a Kid? Well I'm pretty damn sure never on a kid, but >>as Dragaera seems to be a much more innately equalitarian culture, I >>wondered if the same sort of convention existed within the Jhereg. > > > He definitely ordered at least a couple hits on women. I can't recall him > saying one way or another about personally working on any women. Remember > they are fewer women on the Organization side and for the most part 'work' > is an internal Organization thing. It's interesting that there are so few women on the Organization side. I don't think we've met any women in the organization Vlad would ever try to take out... Kiera? Hah! And although Cawti seems to be the highest female in Organization "management" after Vlad leaves her South Adrilankha, I don't see Vlad ever trying to take her out. Obviously, other Jhereg might. Although I wonder... in Phoenix, why don't the Jhereg just take her out, rather than the big elaborate frame-up? I suppose that a hitman code proscribing against killing women would make it so that they don't go after her directly. I think the fact that she's an Easterner as well as a Jhereg complicates things in terms of the hitman code... Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Fri Apr 25 13:07:18 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:07:18 -0400 Subject: Testing? References: Message-ID: <3EA99576.8080908@earthlink.net> John Klein wrote: > On Fri, 25 Apr 2003, Jot Powers wrote: > > @> > Ok, I'll bite... What kind of job has you on a 12 hour night-shift? > @> > @> I'm a Unix Systems Administrator > > Knew it. And to think that Sysadmin is something I'm sort of shooting for... Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From paul at finalchallenge.net Fri Apr 25 13:22:51 2003 From: paul at finalchallenge.net (Paul Hancock) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:22:51 -0700 Subject: No Women, No Kids (mild Phoenix spoilers) In-Reply-To: <3EA9956D.8040009@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <007401c30b68$76a33e60$02a7940a@DOLITTLE> > other Jhereg might. Although I wonder... in Phoenix, why don't the > Jhereg just take her out, rather than the big elaborate frame-up? I > suppose that a hitman code proscribing against killing women would make > it so that they don't go after her directly. I think the fact that she's > an Easterner as well as a Jhereg complicates things in terms of the > hitman code... Killing her would have made her a martyr for Kelly's cause. Alive and imprisoned, she's an object lesson for the masses not to fight the order of things. I doubt they avoided killing her out of concern of violating some sort of code. From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Apr 25 13:23:43 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:23:43 -0400 Subject: I have an extra copy of The Paths of the Dead Message-ID: <084151BF.0E934574.00048EA6@aol.com> "Casey Rousseau" writes: > Which of the following should I do: > > 1) Donate it to a local public library. > > 4) Establish a permanent lending copy, put a dedication in > the book requiring it to be sent along to a list of people. >?When the list is exhausted, the book would be returned to > me. ?At that point, I'd probably donate my other copy to a > local library. Postage costs money; I believe even 4th class (media rate) will run you over a dollar. And then it'll take literally *months* to reach the first person on the list. By the time it gets to the second person, the mass market edition should be out. I'd do option one. (In fact, I personally have done that for a couple of Brust books.) You should check beforehand to see if they already have a copy and, if possible, try to hand it directly to the librarian in charge of SF. --KG From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Apr 25 14:05:17 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:05:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: No Women, No Kids (mild Phoenix spoilers) In-Reply-To: <007401c30b68$76a33e60$02a7940a@DOLITTLE> References: <007401c30b68$76a33e60$02a7940a@DOLITTLE> Message-ID: This is an interesting question. I don't really like the martyr theory. They could just vanish her, or interfere with her mind so that she publicly attacks Kelly or commits suicide or whatever. Also note that she can defend herself - it's more economical to blow up a tower than to hire an elite assassin or two. And doing so would provoke Vlad into unconsidered action against them, and presumably Morrolan&Cie plus the heir apparent wouldn't be pleased. Finally, Cawti probably has Verra and more importantly the Cycle watching over her. On the subject of the Cycle, everybody in the world except for Kelly knows that there can not be a successful Teckla revolt in anyone's lifetime (ok, excluding Sethra [if she has a lifetime] and the SiG). It's a bit puzzling to me that the Jhereg don't just wait a few years for Kelly's group to die off (impressing future generations with the futility of the struggle), perhaps helping them along in subtle ways that don't announce Jheregs-were-here. They should be able to weather a temporary downtown given that the Dragaeran economy must be booming due to increases in productivity related to advances in sorcery (free energy, free bulk transportation, free telecom, near-perfect medical tech, ...) Ok, the plot of _Orca_ does contradict this assertion, but it shouldn't. - Philip On Fri, 25 Apr 2003, Paul Hancock wrote: > > other Jhereg might. Although I wonder... in Phoenix, why don't the > > Jhereg just take her out, rather than the big elaborate frame-up? I > > suppose that a hitman code proscribing against killing women would > make > > it so that they don't go after her directly. I think the fact that > she's > > an Easterner as well as a Jhereg complicates things in terms of the > > hitman code... > > Killing her would have made her a martyr for Kelly's cause. Alive and > imprisoned, she's an object lesson for the masses not to fight the order > of things. I doubt they avoided killing her out of concern of violating > some sort of code. > > > > > From zarkon at illrepute.org Fri Apr 25 14:06:27 2003 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:06:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Testing? In-Reply-To: <3EA99576.8080908@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Apr 2003, Jose Marquez wrote: @> > @> > Ok, I'll bite... What kind of job has you on a 12 hour night-shift? @> > @> @> > @> I'm a Unix Systems Administrator @> > @> > Knew it. @> @> And to think that Sysadmin is something I'm sort of shooting for... Run. Now. Don't look back. Do something where there's a non-zero probability that you'll get respect from your clients, like sewer maintenance or sanitation engineering. From mtiller at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 25 14:06:47 2003 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 22:06:47 +0100 Subject: No Women, No Kids In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002e01c30b6e$981f6bd0$0101a8c0@markspc> -----Original Message----- From: Nytemuse [mailto:nytemuse at auros.org] Sent: 25 April 2003 20:01 To: Dragaera Mailing List Subject: Re: No Women, No Kids >I also suspect he wouldn't mind taking out StY, if the opportunity arose... Well, now he has the means :-) Mark From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Apr 25 14:08:12 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:08:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Testing? Message-ID: <200304252108.h3PL8D724522@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > > @> I'm a Unix Systems Administrator > > > > Knew it. > > And to think that Sysadmin is something I'm sort of shooting for... It can be fun, but wait until you know a lot before you start using it. I took a UNIX SysAdmin 1 class and at the end, the instructor told us we were now the people that SysAdmins *hate*. We knew enough to be dangerous, but not enough to correct all the mistakes we could make.... Chris (Who has only upset the Amdins a couple of times....;) "If you can't live without me, die already." ~Cynthia Heimel From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Apr 25 14:11:20 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:11:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: No Women, No Kids (mild Phoenix spoilers) Message-ID: <200304252111.h3PLBL725002@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > And although Cawti seems to be the highest > female in Organization "management" after Vlad leaves her South > Adrilankha, I don't see Vlad ever trying to take her out. Obviously, > other Jhereg might. Although I wonder... in Phoenix, why don't the > Jhereg just take her out, rather than the big elaborate frame-up? Well, her best-friend and partner IS the Dragon Heir. They might not want to piss her off.... :) Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From mtiller at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 25 14:16:57 2003 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 22:16:57 +0100 Subject: FW: Testing? Message-ID: <003001c30b70$03e99bf0$0101a8c0@markspc> -----Original Message----- From: Jot Powers [mailto:books at bofh.com] >You can all bite me. I work from 10:00 pm to 10:00 am. Right. When I was a lad I used have to get up at half past ten at night, half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of poison, lick road clean with tongue, work 29 hours a day down at mill and pay mill owner for permission to come to work. And when we got home our dad will kill us in cold blood every night and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah. And you try telling that to the kids today....and they won't believe you. ....It had to be done..... Mark From paul at finalchallenge.net Fri Apr 25 14:20:52 2003 From: paul at finalchallenge.net (Paul Hancock) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:20:52 -0700 Subject: No Women, No Kids (mild Phoenix spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <007501c30b70$8edbad70$02a7940a@DOLITTLE> > And > doing so would provoke Vlad into unconsidered action against them, and > presumably Morrolan&Cie plus the heir apparent wouldn't be pleased. I never got the impression that the organization considered Vlad a threat. They certainly didn't take into account the lengths Vlad was willing to go to free her. In hindsight, they would have perhaps been better off killing her. Regardless, I have trouble believing that Vlad's reaction to whatever they did would have entered into the equation. > On the subject of the Cycle, everybody in the world except for Kelly knows > that there can not be a successful Teckla revolt in anyone's lifetime > (ok, excluding Sethra [if she has a lifetime] and the SiG). Verra seemed worried enough about it to involve Vlad in getting Kelly's group conscripted into the army. It's a bit > puzzling to me that the Jhereg don't just wait a few years for Kelly's > group to die off (impressing future generations with the futility of > the struggle), perhaps helping them along in subtle ways that don't > announce Jheregs-were-here. They tried to "help" Kelly's group in a way that wasn't supposed to lead back to Jhereg. Vlad tipped their hand. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Apr 25 14:21:24 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: No Women, No Kids (mild Phoenix spoilers) In-Reply-To: <200304252111.h3PLBL725002@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200304252111.h3PLBL725002@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Apr 2003, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > And although Cawti seems to be the highest > > female in Organization "management" after Vlad leaves her South > > Adrilankha, I don't see Vlad ever trying to take her out. Obviously, > > other Jhereg might. Although I wonder... in Phoenix, why don't the > > Jhereg just take her out, rather than the big elaborate frame-up? > > Well, her best-friend and partner IS the Dragon Heir. > > They might not want to piss her off.... They do want to piss her off - that's the point of the second arrest, at least to the SiG. To be fair, one can probably argue they don't want to piss her off so much she kills them all, just exposes herself enough to be disenheired. > > :) > Chris > "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you > in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." > -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' > > > From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Apr 25 14:29:22 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:29:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: No Women, No Kids (mild Phoenix spoilers) Message-ID: <200304252129.h3PLTN727732@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > They do want to piss her off - that's the point of the second arrest, at > least to the SiG. To be fair, one can probably argue they don't want to > piss her off so much she kills them all, just exposes herself enough to be > disenheired. True, but she would only be disenheired if she enacted her revenge like a Jhereg. If she enacted her revenge like a Dragon..... (Which, as I recall, was how the SiG went bye-bye in Yendi, whatever term they used.) Chris From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Apr 25 14:31:43 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:31:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: No Women, No Kids (mild Phoenix spoilers) In-Reply-To: <007501c30b70$8edbad70$02a7940a@DOLITTLE> References: <007501c30b70$8edbad70$02a7940a@DOLITTLE> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Apr 2003, Paul Hancock wrote: > > And > > doing so would provoke Vlad into unconsidered action against them, and > > presumably Morrolan&Cie plus the heir apparent wouldn't be pleased. > > I never got the impression that the organization considered Vlad a > threat. They certainly didn't take into account the lengths Vlad was > willing to go to free her. In hindsight, they would have perhaps been > better off killing her. Regardless, I have trouble believing that > Vlad's reaction to whatever they did would have entered into the > equation. They're not stupid - they know Vlad can throw chaos bolts; that he's the fastest-rising Jhereg since council-member Mellar, who he personally took out; that he's buddies with perhaps the three highest-profile Dragaerans in the world aside from the Empress. I think this is a reasonable argument to frame not kill Cawti. > > > On the subject of the Cycle, everybody in the world except for Kelly > knows > > that there can not be a successful Teckla revolt in anyone's lifetime > > (ok, excluding Sethra [if she has a lifetime] and the SiG). > > Verra seemed worried enough about it to involve Vlad in getting Kelly's > group conscripted into the army. She doesn't like the slaughter of Easterners, not something most Dragaerans even notice. And she probably had longer-term goals in using Vlad. > It's a bit > > puzzling to me that the Jhereg don't just wait a few years for Kelly's > > group to die off (impressing future generations with the futility of > > the struggle), perhaps helping them along in subtle ways that don't > > announce Jheregs-were-here. > > They tried to "help" Kelly's group in a way that wasn't supposed to lead > back to Jhereg. Vlad tipped their hand. Now that I think of it, the whole "frame the watch-station bombing on Kelly" doesn't make much sense - the Empress just summons the group, says "Fess up under the orb", then goes after the real perpetrators. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Apr 25 14:34:41 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:34:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: No Women, No Kids (mild Phoenix spoilers) In-Reply-To: <200304252129.h3PLTN727732@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200304252129.h3PLTN727732@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: Just to be clear, I wasn't disagreeing with the idea (which I argued myself above), just insisting on the distinction between medium-rare and well-charred pissing-off. On Fri, 25 Apr 2003, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > They do want to piss her off - that's the point of the second arrest, at > > least to the SiG. To be fair, one can probably argue they don't want to > > piss her off so much she kills them all, just exposes herself enough to be > > disenheired. > > True, but she would only be disenheired if she enacted her > revenge like a Jhereg. If she enacted her revenge like > a Dragon..... (Which, as I recall, was how the SiG went > bye-bye in Yendi, whatever term they used.) > > Chris > > From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Apr 25 14:36:53 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:36:53 -0500 Subject: Testing? In-Reply-To: <3EA99576.8080908@earthlink.net> References: <3EA99576.8080908@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20030425213653.GI16150@infodancer.org> On Fri, Apr 25, 2003 at 04:07:18PM -0400, Jose Marquez wrote: > John Klein wrote: > >On Fri, 25 Apr 2003, Jot Powers wrote: > >@> > Ok, I'll bite... What kind of job has you on a 12 hour night-shift? > >@> I'm a Unix Systems Administrator > >Knew it. > And to think that Sysadmin is something I'm sort of shooting for... You do not shoot FOR sysadminning. Sysadminning is something you run away from. At speed. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Apr 25 14:38:10 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: No Women, No Kids (mild Phoenix spoilers) Message-ID: <200304252138.h3PLcB728952@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Just to be clear, I wasn't disagreeing with the idea (which I argued > myself above), just insisting on the distinction between medium-rare and > well-charred pissing-off. Ah, that's fair. I like my pissed-off to have a nice, well-charred, lemond-and-pepper flavor, myself. Sharp, bitter, and burnt to all hell.... Chris "So farewell hope, and with hope, farewell fear, Farewell remorse! All good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my Good" - John Milton - 'Paradise Lost' From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Apr 25 14:39:25 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:39:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Testing? Message-ID: <200304252139.h3PLdQ729121@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > You do not shoot FOR sysadminning. Sysadminning is something you > run away from. At speed. Or fall over backwards into, then try to crawl out of.... Chris From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Apr 25 14:42:35 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:42:35 -0500 Subject: Testing? In-Reply-To: <200304252139.h3PLdQ729121@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200304252139.h3PLdQ729121@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <20030425214235.GJ16150@infodancer.org> On Fri, Apr 25, 2003 at 02:39:25PM -0700, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > You do not shoot FOR sysadminning. Sysadminning is something you > > run away from. At speed. > Or fall over backwards into, then try to crawl out of.... You were pushed. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From richard at pikachu.harvard.edu Fri Apr 25 14:56:58 2003 From: richard at pikachu.harvard.edu (Richard Congdon) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:56:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Testing? In-Reply-To: <20030425213653.GI16150@infodancer.org> from "Matthew Hunter" at Apr 25, 2003 04:36:53 PM Message-ID: <200304252156.h3PLuw727489@pikachu.harvard.edu> > > You do not shoot FOR sysadminning. Sysadminning is something you > run away from. At speed. > It was not always thus. My first job ('84) was as a unix sysadmin, and I have never enjoyed a job so much. It probably helped that there was no one (to my knowledge) trying to run things 24/7. If something broke on the off-hours, it could always wait until the next day. -- Richard From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Apr 25 14:49:03 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:49:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Testing? Message-ID: <200304252149.h3PLn4700411@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > You were pushed. I was pushed into finance. That's even worse, in my opinion. We don't even have NERF weapons to shoot each other with. And, heck, even I think we're the slime that snails leave around.... Chris (Who hates finance, and is good with numbers....) "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, son." - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Apr 25 15:21:56 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:21:56 -0500 Subject: Testing? In-Reply-To: <200304252156.h3PLuw727489@pikachu.harvard.edu> References: <20030425213653.GI16150@infodancer.org> <200304252156.h3PLuw727489@pikachu.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <20030425222156.GK16150@infodancer.org> On Fri, Apr 25, 2003 at 05:56:58PM -0400, Richard Congdon wrote: > > You do not shoot FOR sysadminning. Sysadminning is something you > > run away from. At speed. > It was not always thus. My first job ('84) was as a unix sysadmin, and I have > never enjoyed a job so much. It probably helped that there was no one (to > my knowledge) trying to run things 24/7. If something broke on the > off-hours, it could always wait until the next day. In the Golden Age, which we now call "Before Microsoft", things were better. They were not perfect, mind, but they were better. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Fri Apr 25 16:58:44 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:58:44 -0700 Subject: SoCal Brust Gathering Message-ID: <0sijavg80li5hn71m16qenbiq9qo6m6usu@4ax.com> From what I understand, it's tomorrow. Are we all confirmed? -- lazarus "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American Public." -- Theodore Roosevelt From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Fri Apr 25 20:26:27 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 23:26:27 -0400 Subject: Testing? References: <3EA99576.8080908@earthlink.net> <20030425213653.GI16150@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <3EA9FC63.8080807@earthlink.net> Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Fri, Apr 25, 2003 at 04:07:18PM -0400, Jose Marquez wrote: > >>John Klein wrote: >> >>>On Fri, 25 Apr 2003, Jot Powers wrote: >>>@> > Ok, I'll bite... What kind of job has you on a 12 hour night-shift? >>>@> I'm a Unix Systems Administrator >>>Knew it. >> >>And to think that Sysadmin is something I'm sort of shooting for... > > You do not shoot FOR sysadminning. Sysadminning is something you > run away from. At speed. You and John seem to be in agreement. And it came as a surprise to me that there are sysadmin courses, even though that shouldn't surprise me. Still, right now I'm an unemployed kid with a year of real software development experience, so if I get a shot at sysadmining, I'll go for it... *grin* Besides, how bad could it be? Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From frank at exit.com Fri Apr 25 21:51:16 2003 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 21:51:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Testing? In-Reply-To: <3EA9FC63.8080807@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200304260451.h3Q4pGQ4023485@realtime.exit.com> Jose Marquez wrote: > it... *grin* Besides, how bad > could it be? Worse than you could ever imagine. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From rone at ennui.org Fri Apr 25 22:01:15 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (circadian rhyme) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 22:01:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Testing? In-Reply-To: <3EA9FC63.8080807@earthlink.net> from Jose Marquez at "Apr 25, 2003 11:26:27 pm" Message-ID: <20030426050115.EF5C826E3C@boredom.ennui.org> Jose Marquez writes: Still, right now I'm an unemployed kid with a year of real software development experience, so if I get a shot at sysadmining, I'll go for it... *grin* Besides, how bad could it be? Don't let these fraidy cats scare you off. Sysadminning is a noble job, especially in these dark times ruled by Evil. Where else can you get paid scads of money for goofing off 80% of the time? rone -- "Alan Alda's all we are." - Kurt Cobain From matthew at infodancer.org Sat Apr 26 09:21:01 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 11:21:01 -0500 Subject: Testing? In-Reply-To: <3EA9FC63.8080807@earthlink.net> References: <3EA99576.8080908@earthlink.net> <20030425213653.GI16150@infodancer.org> <3EA9FC63.8080807@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20030426162101.GC11169@infodancer.org> On Fri, Apr 25, 2003 at 11:26:27PM -0400, Jose Marquez wrote: > Matthew Hunter wrote: > >On Fri, Apr 25, 2003 at 04:07:18PM -0400, Jose Marquez > > wrote: > >>John Klein wrote: > >>>On Fri, 25 Apr 2003, Jot Powers wrote: > >>>@> > Ok, I'll bite... What kind of job has you on a 12 hour night-shift? > >>>@> I'm a Unix Systems Administrator > >>>Knew it. > >>And to think that Sysadmin is something I'm sort of shooting for... > >You do not shoot FOR sysadminning. Sysadminning is something you > >run away from. At speed. > You and John seem to be in agreement. And it came as a surprise to me > that there are sysadmin courses, even though that shouldn't surprise me. There are courses for everything. There are *expensive* courses for everything actually hard. Few of the courses are worth what you pay for. None of the expensive courses are worth what you pay for. A course in system administration will teach you how to do everything you need to do as a system administrator when the systems work. They will not teach you how to fix those systems when they break. Guess which one is the hard part? > Still, right now I'm an unemployed kid with a year of real software > development experience, so if I get a shot at sysadmining, I'll go for > it... *grin* Oh God. > Besides, how bad > could it be? If you have to ask... -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From matthew at infodancer.org Sat Apr 26 09:22:59 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 11:22:59 -0500 Subject: Testing? In-Reply-To: <20030426050115.EF5C826E3C@boredom.ennui.org> References: <3EA9FC63.8080807@earthlink.net> <20030426050115.EF5C826E3C@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <20030426162259.GD11169@infodancer.org> On Fri, Apr 25, 2003 at 10:01:15PM -0700, circadian rhyme wrote: > Jose Marquez writes: > Still, right now I'm an unemployed kid with a year of real software > development experience, so if I get a shot at sysadmining, I'll go for > it... *grin* Besides, how bad > could it be? > Don't let these fraidy cats scare you off. Sysadminning is a noble > job, especially in these dark times ruled by Evil. Where else can you > get paid scads of money for goofing off 80% of the time? This was before the bubble. Post-bubble, they fired 80% of the staff and expect the same amount of work to be done. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From rone at ennui.org Sat Apr 26 09:45:09 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (circadian rhyme) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 09:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [OT] sysadminning In-Reply-To: <20030426162259.GD11169@infodancer.org> from Matthew Hunter at "Apr 26, 2003 11:22:59 am" Message-ID: <20030426164509.9080B26E30@boredom.ennui.org> Matthew Hunter writes: > Don't let these fraidy cats scare you off. Sysadminning is a noble > job, especially in these dark times ruled by Evil. Where else can you > get paid scads of money for goofing off 80% of the time? This was before the bubble. Post-bubble, they fired 80% of the staff and expect the same amount of work to be done. That was immediately post-bubble, like 2001. Things are already improving, as evidenced by my improved goof-off time. rone -- "Alan Alda's all we are." - Kurt Cobain From zarkon at illrepute.org Sat Apr 26 22:24:47 2003 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 01:24:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Boston-area Dinner Pictures Message-ID: Some pictures from the First Occasional Boston-Area Dragaera Dinner are now up on the web: http://www.illrepute.org/~zarkon/pictures/dragaeradinner/ Rick, the organizer, also took some pictures (don't know if he's putting them up, although I expect so). If the people who appear in these pictures want to be publicly identified as themselves, they ought to let me know. Sorry we had to run at the end there; we would have had to take a cab home if we'd missed that bus. (Tangental question: is Brust pronounced to rhyme with rust or roost?) From ryan at wonko.com Sun Apr 27 10:58:11 2003 From: ryan at wonko.com (Ryan Grove) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 10:58:11 -0700 Subject: Boston-area Dinner Pictures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EAC1A33.8070502@wonko.com> John Klein wrote: > (Tangental question: is Brust pronounced to rhyme with rust or roost?) According to the pronunciation guide in the front of my copy of _The Book of Jhereg_, Brust sounds like "roost". -- Ryan Grove ryan at wonko.com http://wonko.com/ From RuhlenR at missouri.edu Sun Apr 27 18:21:00 2003 From: RuhlenR at missouri.edu (Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student)) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 20:21:00 -0500 Subject: On topic Message-ID: <5933733D73CBA149A8178066DE6022B9087E15@COL-EMAIL3.col.missouri.edu> > -----Original Message----- > From: BLACKSTOCK, ROB [mailto:rblackstock at ersgroup.com] > Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 12:01 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: On topic > > Has there ever been an explanation for the change in the > language style between the anti-interregnum and the Taltos > era? Or, did the language style not change, but had simply > been "enhanced" by Parfii in his romances? I don't know about an explanation, but it is indicated in some part of the novel (I think in the foreward) that the language style had changed, but Paarfi didn't use the actual old language style; he used a style >from a play that had been popular to give it an old-fashioned flavor. Speaking of which, a couple months ago (only that long? It seems ages now) I was in a used bookstore and picked up a copy of Zelazny's _Lord of Light_ which had been strongly recommended after I mentioned that I couldn't get into _Chronicles of Amber_. I didn't get very into _Lord of Light_ either, although it's definitely easier to read than Amber, but I was extremely amused to hear the voices of Tortaalik and Wellborn coming out of the mouths of gods. Rachel PS It seems ages ago because, not that I'm boasting or anything, but I got a job offer for a post-doctoral position, wrote my dissertation, turned it in on time, defended it, and PASSED, not to mention painted my house inside & out, listed it 4 days before my dissertation seminar on Friday, found a buyer and TODAY set a closing day. Needless to say I didn't do all this alone (but credit where credit is due). Congratulations & sympathies will both be accepted graciously. From rick at 404.978.org Sun Apr 27 21:05:42 2003 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:05:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Boston-area Dinner Pictures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4825.192.168.1.1.1051502742.squirrel@404.978.org> John Klein said: > Some pictures from the First Occasional Boston-Area Dragaera Dinner are > now up on the web: > > http://www.illrepute.org/~zarkon/pictures/dragaeradinner/ > > Rick, the organizer, also took some pictures (don't know if he's putting > them up, although I expect so). Indeed, I am, and have been doing so for nearly an hour! ;) http://404.978.org/gallery/BrustDinner4-27-03 Add comments to pictures as you see fit... :) It was great meeting everyone! We ended up having 6 of the originally RSVP'd 13 attendees at the dinner, and much meat was had by all. When the servers bring out sword-length skewers full of six different kinds of tasty fire-roasted meat (beef sirloin, pork, chicken breast wrapped in bacon, lamb, kielbasa and Italian sausage, and chicken hearts) and keep bringing them around over and over and over until you can swear that you can hear them whispering under their breath "It's wafer thin!" then you know it's a good restaurant. :) We had a running list of "heard at" quotables from the evening as well, that I think John was custodian of... much silliness, much fun, and nary any "work" being done to spoil it. Wish you all could have made it, we'll definitely do it again. -Rick -Rick From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Mon Apr 28 09:54:58 2003 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:54:58 -0700 Subject: So. Cal. Brustian Meeting + a question. Message-ID: The first Southern California Brustian Meeting was held Saturday, with only four participants, but with great interest, and much enlightened (?) speculation. Thank you Laz. your SO (whose name I have the undoubted misfortune to lamentably not recall to mind), Nate, and to all those who wished to be there but were no doubt forced by the most evil for misfortunes to miss. James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN Question- the Great Weapons we've met so far seem to have a certain color associated with them- Iceflame glows blue, Pathfinder glows green, Blackwand is, well, black. What color would Lady Teldra/Spellbreaker glow when in use? Gold? (I'm assuming that this is a glow that occurs during "use", otherwise, the blades seem to be the usual dull grey-black color of Morganti weapons in general.) _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From rblackstock at ersgroup.com Mon Apr 28 09:56:42 2003 From: rblackstock at ersgroup.com (BLACKSTOCK, ROB) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 12:56:42 -0400 Subject: So. Cal. Brustian Meeting + a question. Message-ID: >Question- the Great Weapons we've met so far seem to have a certain color associated with them- Iceflame glows blue, Pathfinder glows green, Blackwand is, well, black. What color would Lady Teldra/Spellbreaker glow when in use? Gold? (I'm assuming that this is a glow that occurs during "use", otherwise, the blades seem to be the usual dull grey-black color of Morganti weapons in general.) What are the issola colors? From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Apr 28 10:09:51 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:09:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: So. Cal. Brustian Meeting + a question. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 2003, James Griffin wrote: > > Question- the Great Weapons we've met so far seem to have a certain color > associated with them- Iceflame glows blue, Pathfinder glows green, Blackwand > is, well, black. What color would Lady Teldra/Spellbreaker glow when in use? > Gold? (I'm assuming that this is a glow that occurs during "use", > otherwise, the blades seem to be the usual dull grey-black color of Morganti > weapons in general.) Note that Spellbreaker's functionality is closely related to its material properties - it's made of gold phoenix stone. Now that you ask the above, I wonder if there's a GW made of black phoenix stone - presumably it would make its wielder psychically invisible, almost as good as being Kragar. Perhaps there are 17 special substances which are alloyed with Morganti metal in analogue to the alloying with a soul we suspect is involved in completing a GW. From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Mon Apr 28 11:28:00 2003 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:28:00 -0700 Subject: So. Cal. Brustian Meeting + a question. Message-ID: >From: "BLACKSTOCK, ROB" >> >Question- the Great Weapons we've met so far seem to have a certain >color >associated with them- Iceflame glows blue, Pathfinder glows green, >Blackwand >is, well, black. What color would Lady Teldra/Spellbreaker glow when in >use? >Gold? (I'm assuming that this is a glow that occurs during "use", >otherwise, the blades seem to be the usual dull grey-black color of >Morganti >weapons in general.) > > > >What are the issola colors? Green and white. _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From casey at trinityhartford.org Mon Apr 28 10:07:38 2003 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:07:38 -0400 Subject: Colors for Great Weapons (was RE: So. Cal. Brustian Meeting + a question. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: BLACKSTOCK, ROB asked: > What are the issola colors? Green and White http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/characteristics.html From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Mon Apr 28 13:58:05 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:58:05 -0700 Subject: So. Cal. Brustian Meeting + a question. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:54:58 -0700, you wrote: > > > > >The first Southern California Brustian Meeting was held Saturday, with only >four participants, but with great interest, and much enlightened (?) >speculation. Thank you Laz. your SO (whose name I have the undoubted >misfortune to lamentably not recall to mind), Nate, and to all those who >wished to be there but were no doubt forced by the most evil for misfortunes >to miss. > Had a great time. Haele and I were very happy to meet you and Nathan. Wish more had made it, but a good time was had by all. BTW, group, we spent some time with a blacksmith who works there in Old Town San Diego. But, despite our pleas, he still pretended not to have knowledge of the making of Morganti weapons that he would impart to us. :-) -- lazarus "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American Public." -- Theodore Roosevelt From rblackstock at ersgroup.com Tue Apr 29 06:42:06 2003 From: rblackstock at ersgroup.com (BLACKSTOCK, ROB) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:42:06 -0400 Subject: question. Message-ID: In "Yendi," Sethra says that Sethra the Younger was the only apprentice she ever had who never tried to kill her. Does that mean Tazendra will eventually turn on Sethra? I always assumed that Tazendra blew herself up later in the series. Could it have been Sethra's work instead? From nytemuse at auros.org Tue Apr 29 08:31:09 2003 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 08:31:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: question. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 2003, BLACKSTOCK, ROB wrote: > In "Yendi," Sethra says that Sethra the Younger was the only apprentice > she ever had who never tried to kill her. > Does that mean Tazendra will eventually turn on Sethra? > I always assumed that Tazendra blew herself up later in the series. > Could it have been Sethra's work instead? Since PotD is not out in paperback yet, can I make a small request to please keep spoiler rules in effect at least till then? I can't afford the hardback and the library hasn't gotten it yet. At least a mention in the subject line would be nice, if you don't want to bother with space...I had no idea this was about PotD until I finished it. ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From zarkon at illrepute.org Tue Apr 29 08:43:36 2003 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:43:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: question. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Spoilers for Paths of the Dead On Tue, 29 Apr 2003, BLACKSTOCK, ROB wrote: @> In "Yendi," Sethra says that Sethra the Younger was the only apprentice @> she ever had who never tried to kill her. @> Does that mean Tazendra will eventually turn on Sethra? @> I always assumed that Tazendra blew herself up later in the series. @> Could it have been Sethra's work instead? I may recall incorrectly, but I don't think that Tazendra is actually Sethra's apprentice as such. She's a Lavode, sure, but Lavode doesn't automatically equal apprentice. Sethra, when she talks about her apprentices, seems to be talking about people she's training to take over her position when she's gone. From dreadstar at bigpond.com Wed Apr 30 00:57:12 2003 From: dreadstar at bigpond.com (dreadstar) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:57:12 +1000 Subject: Dragaera list: OT: suggestion for the list Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030430175308.00b8d540@mail.bigpond.com> Can I possibly contribute in a small way to the list? I would like to suggest that all Users to the list prefix their subject line similarly to the subjectline of this email (or some variation). I sometimes have trouble determining what is spam & what is not, when the subject line is a single word, or at least not in the least connected to Dragaera. In the past, I know I have been guilty of deleting valid Dragaera list email, because the subject line looked too much like Spam. Just my 2 cents here. Andrew. From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Wed Apr 30 01:02:48 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 01:02:48 -0700 Subject: Dragaera list: OT: suggestion for the list In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030430175308.00b8d540@mail.bigpond.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030430175308.00b8d540@mail.bigpond.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:57:12 +1000, you wrote: >Can I possibly contribute in a small way to the list? > >I would like to suggest that all Users to the list prefix their subject >line similarly to the subjectline of this email (or some variation). I >sometimes have trouble determining what is spam & what is not, when the >subject line is a single word, or at least not in the least connected to >Dragaera. > >In the past, I know I have been guilty of deleting valid Dragaera list >email, because the subject line looked too much like Spam. > >Just my 2 cents here. > >Andrew. I set up a filter. All emails to dragaera at dragaera.info go to a separate folder. Surely Eudora can do that? -- lazarus "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American Public." -- Theodore Roosevelt From books at bofh.com Wed Apr 30 01:16:11 2003 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 01:16:11 -0700 Subject: Dragaera list: OT: suggestion for the list In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030430175308.00b8d540@mail.bigpond.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030430175308.00b8d540@mail.bigpond.com> Message-ID: <20030430081611.GA7732@bofh.com> > I would like to suggest that all Users to the list prefix their subject > line similarly to the subjectline of this email (or some variation). I Sounds like a great idea. You have now suggested it. I think the idea itself is either 1) Silly 2) Stupid Depending on how sensitive I'm trying to be. :) > In the past, I know I have been guilty of deleting valid Dragaera list > email, because the subject line looked too much like Spam. This is likely to turn into a huge discussion of how to determine if things are spam or not. However, I would offer a simple suggestion: - Whitelist all email that is either To or CC to dragaera at dragaera.info A more complex solution would be to do something like SpamAssassin (http://spamassassin.org) integrating things like Razor (http://razor.sourceforge.net) and Bogofilter (http://bogofilter.sourceforge.net). Others will suggest TMDA (http://tmda.sourceforge.net), another good solution...BUT you had damn well better whitelist the list in that case, because to do otherwise is assinine. (And I've seen it a lot) These are relatively easy to install in varying forms, depending on how good your relatives are. :) -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From terrick at cox.net Wed Apr 30 05:48:12 2003 From: terrick at cox.net (Ryan) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 07:48:12 -0500 Subject: Dragaera list: OT: suggestion for the list In-Reply-To: <20030430081611.GA7732@bofh.com> Message-ID: <000001c30f16$c2b031d0$6464a8c0@nngco.mehcpipelines.com> > I would like to suggest that all Users to the list prefix their subject > line similarly to the subjectline of this email (or some variation). I This has been a discussion on this more times than I can recall. The answer hasn't changed either, in the end it comes back to you can setup a rule that looks in your message headers and moves it to any folder you want. Match against this string. contact dragaera-help at dragaera.info; run by ezml Trust me it works great been using this since I've been on this list. From Gaertk at aol.com Wed Apr 30 07:22:16 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 10:22:16 -0400 Subject: Dragaera list: OT: suggestion for the list Message-ID: <493CD48A.5ED9E4AC.00048EA6@aol.com> dreadstar writes: > Can I possibly contribute in a small way to the list? > I would like to suggest that all Users to the list prefix > their subject line similarly to the subjectline of this > email (or some variation). ?I sometimes have trouble > determining what is spam & what is not, when the subject > line is a single word, or at least not in the least > connected to Dragaera. This has already been discussed in the past; the consensus was that most people don't want unneccessarily long subject lines. Also, such tags don't often work well with the Re: tags. > In the past, I know I have been guilty of deleting valid > Dragaera list email, because the subject line looked too > much like Spam. Me too; just recently I was looking through the archives and saw that the knock-knock joke I deleted wasn't spam. I see replies telling you about sorting on headers and anti-spam software. But for poor unfortunate souls like myself who aren't allowed to use third-party clients, I'd like to ask that people take care not to write subject lines that look like spam. That means using proper capitalization, spelling, etc. And try include some reference to Dragaera, or the OT: flag for off-topic stuff. PS. Discussions of the list are always on topic. You can use the META tag if you want to distinguish it from the book threads. --KG From pgranzeau at cox.net Wed Apr 30 09:37:41 2003 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:37:41 -0500 Subject: Dragaera list: OT: suggestion for the list In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030430175308.00b8d540@mail.bigpond.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030430113628.01db6d60@pop.east.cox.net> At 02:57 04/30/2003, dreadstar wrote: >Can I possibly contribute in a small way to the list? > >I would like to suggest that all Users to the list prefix their subject >line similarly to the subjectline of this email (or some variation). I >sometimes have trouble determining what is spam & what is not, when the >subject line is a single word, or at least not in the least connected to >Dragaera. > >In the past, I know I have been guilty of deleting valid Dragaera list >email, because the subject line looked too much like Spam. > >Just my 2 cents here. You can also check on the "To:" line for dragaera at dragaera.info (which is what I do). -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From rone at ennui.org Wed Apr 30 10:10:58 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (circadian rhyme) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 10:10:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dragaera list: OT: suggestion for the list In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030430113628.01db6d60@pop.east.cox.net> from "Peter H. Granzeau" at "Apr 30, 2003 11:37:41 am" Message-ID: <20030430171058.957EA26E2C@boredom.ennui.org> Peter H. Granzeau writes: You can also check on the "To:" line for dragaera at dragaera.info (which is what I do). Check the Cc: line, too. rone -- "Alan Alda's all we are." - Kurt Cobain From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Wed Apr 30 18:01:18 2003 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:01:18 -0500 Subject: My spare copy of tPotD References: Message-ID: <3EB071DE.4020809@attbi.com> Who, me? I've read mine already. Mia From dreadstar at bigpond.com Thu May 1 00:23:14 2003 From: dreadstar at bigpond.com (dreadstar) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 17:23:14 +1000 Subject: email from the Empire Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030501172159.00b855e8@mail.bigpond.com> Thanks all for your kind assitance, yes, I've setup filter, works fine. Please, go about your normal business, thanks very much. From warlord at dragon.com Thu May 1 07:10:13 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 10:10:13 -0400 Subject: email from the Empire In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030501172159.00b855e8@mail.bigpond.com> Message-ID: You have to love the internet. A fine place where you can ask the question, "Can you shout fire in a crowded theater?" Then 50% stand up and angrily shout, "wrong theater!" W New rule: Never argue theoretical metaphysics on less than a glass and a half of wine. > -----Original Message----- > From: dreadstar [mailto:dreadstar at bigpond.com] > Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 03:23 > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: email from the Empire > > > Thanks all for your kind assitance, yes, I've setup filter, works fine. > > Please, go about your normal business, thanks very much. > > From alexx at TheWorld.com Thu May 1 08:10:08 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 11:10:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: email from the Empire In-Reply-To: from "Warlord" at May 01, 2003 10:10:13 AM Message-ID: <200305011510.LAA2386149@shell.TheWorld.com> > > New rule: Never argue theoretical metaphysics on less than > a glass and a half of wine. But is that second glass half-full or half-empty? Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "Do you know him personally?" "No, but I've slept with his wife several times." [I, CLAUDIUS] From warlord at dragon.com Thu May 1 08:21:49 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 11:21:49 -0400 Subject: email from the Empire In-Reply-To: <200305011510.LAA2386149@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: > > > > New rule: Never argue theoretical metaphysics on less than > > a glass and a half of wine. > > But is that second glass half-full or half-empty? > I haven't had any wine, so the answer is: You engineered the glass 100% too large. Of course, if the glass (and wine) is for me, then you've a fine, steady hand; keep pouring. W cryp.to.zo.ol.o.gy n. 1969 : the study of the lore concerning legendary animals (as Sasquatch) especially in order to evaluate the possibility of their existence From ikep at umbc.edu Thu May 1 09:46:19 2003 From: ikep at umbc.edu (Ike Porter) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 12:46:19 -0400 Subject: email from the Empire In-Reply-To: <200305011510.LAA2386149@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 May 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > > > New rule: Never argue theoretical metaphysics on less than > > a glass and a half of wine. > > But is that second glass half-full or half-empty? *gulp* Delicious. From rone at ennui.org Thu May 1 10:13:29 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (circadian rhyme) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 10:13:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: email from the Empire In-Reply-To: <200305011510.LAA2386149@shell.TheWorld.com> from Alexx S Kay at "May 1, 2003 11:10:08 am" Message-ID: <20030501171329.1873E26E44@boredom.ennui.org> Alexx S Kay writes: > New rule: Never argue theoretical metaphysics on less than > a glass and a half of wine. But is that second glass half-full or half-empty? That depends on whether you have more wine to pour. rone -- "Alan Alda's all we are." - Kurt Cobain From mam at theworld.com Thu May 1 10:55:59 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 13:55:59 -0400 Subject: On topic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Apr 2003, BLACKSTOCK, ROB wrote: #All right... I have a question for you guys which is (gasp!) actually on #topic! # #Has there ever been an explanation for the change in the language style #between the anti-interregnum and the Taltos era? Or, did the language (ante-) #style not change, but had simply been "enhanced" by Parfii in his #romances? I've always assumed that this is Paarfi's style, plain and simple. Well, and added to the fact that it's VERY different from Vlad's style and the way most of the Jhereg talk. If you compare Paarfi's dialogues with the way Morrolan, Aliera, Sethra, and Lady Teldra speak in the Vlad novels, I think you'll find them a lot closer. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mam at theworld.com Thu May 1 11:02:20 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 14:02:20 -0400 Subject: No Women, No Kids In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Apr 2003, Casey Rousseau wrote: #Akodo Bob wrote: #> Hey all, I just saw the movie "Leon the Professional." And it got me #> thinking. Leon is a hitman and describes the "hitman code" which #> specifically proscribes against killing Woman or Children. Has Vlad ever #> worked on a Woman or a Kid? Well I'm pretty damn sure never on a kid, but #> as Dragaera seems to be a much more innately equalitarian culture, I #> wondered if the same sort of convention existed within the Jhereg. # #He definitely ordered at least a couple hits on women. I can't recall him #saying one way or another about personally working on any women. Remember #they are fewer women on the Organization side and for the most part 'work' #is an internal Organization thing. I haven't seen the movie, but maybyou can check me on this.; (excuse tyupos-- bloody slow echo today!!!) I suspect that that proscription refers to collateral damage. That is: You don't want witnesses to a hit. You're assigned/contracted to take out John Smith. If your only shot at him is when he's talking with Bill Jones, well, that's too bad for Bill: he's got to go. But if Mrs. Smith, or Mrs. Jones, or little Jack or Billy is there, the rule is that you do not hit them, even if it means leaving a witness or aborting the hit. (If your assignment were on a woman or, for some horrible reason, a kid, that might be a different matter.) If that's the case, then it's not too far off from the Jhereg rule that you don't shine a guy in his home or (IIRC) in front of his family. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mam at theworld.com Thu May 1 11:08:58 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 14:08:58 -0400 Subject: :-) Off topic (was RE: On topic) In-Reply-To: <5933733D73CBA149A8178066DE6022B9087E15@COL-EMAIL3.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Apr 2003, Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student) wrote: #PS It seems ages ago because, not that I'm boasting or anything, but I #got a job offer for a post-doctoral position, wrote my dissertation, #turned it in on time, defended it, and PASSED, not to mention painted my #house inside & out, listed it 4 days before my dissertation seminar on #Friday, found a buyer and TODAY set a closing day. Needless to say I #didn't do all this alone (but credit where credit is due). #Congratulations & sympathies will both be accepted graciously. MAZEL TOV!! -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Thu May 1 12:13:23 2003 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 12:13:23 -0700 Subject: :-) Off topic (was RE: On topic) Message-ID: >#PS It seems ages ago because, not that I'm boasting or anything, but I >#got a job offer for a post-doctoral position, wrote my dissertation, >#turned it in on time, defended it, and PASSED, not to mention painted my >#house inside & out, listed it 4 days before my dissertation seminar on >#Friday, found a buyer and TODAY set a closing day. Needless to say I >#didn't do all this alone (but credit where credit is due). >#Congratulations & sympathies will both be accepted graciously. > >MAZEL TOV!! > >-- Mark A. Mandel L'Chaim! James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From rblackstock at ersgroup.com Thu May 1 12:15:19 2003 From: rblackstock at ersgroup.com (BLACKSTOCK, ROB) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 15:15:19 -0400 Subject: :-) Off topic (was RE: On topic) Message-ID: >#PS It seems ages ago because, not that I'm boasting or anything, but I >#got a job offer for a post-doctoral position, wrote my dissertation, >#turned it in on time, defended it, and PASSED, not to mention painted >my #house inside & out, listed it 4 days before my dissertation seminar >on #Friday, found a buyer and TODAY set a closing day. Needless to say >I #didn't do all this alone (but credit where credit is due). >#Congratulations & sympathies will both be accepted graciously. > >MAZEL TOV!! > >-- Mark A. Mandel L'Chaim! Gesundheit. From feetalsjeez at yahoo.com Thu May 1 12:27:44 2003 From: feetalsjeez at yahoo.com (Tim Owen) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 12:27:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: :-) Off topic (was RE: On topic) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030501192744.49335.qmail@web40210.mail.yahoo.com> "BLACKSTOCK, ROB" wrote: >#PS It seems ages ago because, not that I'm boasting or anything, but I >#got a job offer for a post-doctoral position, wrote my dissertation, >#turned it in on time, defended it, and PASSED, not to mention painted >my #house inside & out, listed it 4 days before my dissertation seminar >on #Friday, found a buyer and TODAY set a closing day. Needless to say >I #didn't do all this alone (but credit where credit is due). >#Congratulations & sympathies will both be accepted graciously. > >MAZEL TOV!! > >-- Mark A. Mandel >L'Chaim! >Gesundheit. Oy Vey! -Tim Owen --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. From akodobob at sbcglobal.net Thu May 1 14:00:59 2003 From: akodobob at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 14:00:59 -0700 Subject: No Women, No Kids References: Message-ID: <003401c31024$cd227380$6401a8c0@DELL1> > I suspect that that proscription refers to collateral damage. That is: > You don't want witnesses to a hit. You're assigned/contracted to take > out John Smith. If your only shot at him is when he's talking with Bill > Jones, well, that's too bad for Bill: he's got to go. But if Mrs. > Smith, or Mrs. Jones, or little Jack or Billy is there, the rule is that > you do not hit them, even if it means leaving a witness or aborting the > hit. (If your assignment were on a woman or, for some horrible reason, a > kid, that might be a different matter.) > You might want to check the movie out, cause its pretty damn cool. But when describing his work to someone, he specifically specifies that he won't be hired to kill women or kids. AkodoBob -who still thinks Leon the Professional looks like Vlad Divac From dusty at sayersnet.com Thu May 1 16:16:14 2003 From: dusty at sayersnet.com (J A 'Dusty' Sayers) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 19:16:14 -0400 Subject: On topic (specifically, changes in language usage) References: Message-ID: <3EB1AABE.9DDBF98E@sayersnet.com> Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Fri, 25 Apr 2003, BLACKSTOCK, ROB wrote: > > #All right... I have a question for you guys which is (gasp!) actually on > #topic! > # > #Has there ever been an explanation for the change in the language style > #between the anti-interregnum and the Taltos era? Or, did the language > (ante-) > #style not change, but had simply been "enhanced" by Parfii in his > #romances? > > I've always assumed that this is Paarfi's style, plain and simple. Well, > and added to the fact that it's VERY different from Vlad's style and the > way most of the Jhereg talk. If you compare Paarfi's dialogues with > the way Morrolan, Aliera, Sethra, and Lady Teldra speak in the Vlad > novels, I think you'll find them a lot closer. > > -- Mark A. Mandel > http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ > a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website I had gotten the impression (perhaps wrongly) that some of the change was due to the informality and chaos of the interregnum. Just as titles became less meaningful and society cumbled, so did language, as people expressed things in simpler, less erudite ways. After all, it hardly mattered if one's speech could hold up in court--there was no court at which to present it. I think someone on this list suggested this a while back, perhaps shortly after the book became available. I could be misremembering, but I think I saw this theory, in some form, advanced somewhere before I thought of it. Also, it could be that, now that Paarfi is writing for a commercial publishing house rather than for scholarly journals, he no longer has to adhere to the usages of Dragaera's scholarly class. After all, it was explained that he writes the way he does because, on Dragaera, all scholars write like that. Sorry I don't have any page numbers; I do not have my books handy at the moment. -- J A Dusty Sayers Home Page http://www.sayersnet.com/~dusty/ Rescue the Princess http://www.sayersnet.com/~dusty/rescue/ Kings of Chaos http://www.kingsofchaos.com/page.php?id=295152 'Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest do not happen at all. The conscientious historian will correct these defects.' -- Herodotus From casey at trinityhartford.org Thu May 1 10:24:58 2003 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 13:24:58 -0400 Subject: email from the Empire In-Reply-To: <20030501171329.1873E26E44@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: rone wrote: > Alexx S Kay writes: > > New rule: Never argue theoretical metaphysics on less than > > a glass and a half of wine. > But is that second glass half-full or half-empty? > > That depends on whether you have more wine to pour. Yes. Just exactly what is the rate of change of volume of the wine to the volume of the glass? Waitaminit. You said *metaphysics*, not physics, sorry. In that case, I sure hope you've got more of that nice Aussie Shiraz. Casey From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Thu May 1 20:11:08 2003 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 22:11:08 -0500 Subject: :-) Off topic (was RE: On topic) References: Message-ID: <3EB1E1CC.6040800@attbi.com> That is *amazing*!!! Did you sleep anywhere in there? Congratulations! Mia From WyrmOuroboros at comcast.net Sat May 3 09:48:24 2003 From: WyrmOuroboros at comcast.net (Thomas FURNITURE ARTIST) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 12:48:24 -0400 Subject: Book of Athyra Message-ID: <8a64398a7d59.8a7d598a6439@icomcast.net> So I was down at Barnes & Noble last night -- only last night? Wow. So anyhow, I was there, and though I wasn't there specifically looking for any new Brust books, (I was, instead, looking to pick up a paperback copy of Lois McMaster Bujold's 'Curse of Chalion', a book I highly recommend) I did as is my wont and checked for new/old things >from Our Fearless Leader. (You -are- fearless, right, Steve?) Lo and behold, I discovered that the Book of Athyra was out. Not having actually -read- Athyran in, oh, about a year LESS than the total time it's been published, I naturally had to pick it up. Re-reading it (yes, finished already) I believe I can say that though I almost burn with curiousity in regards to what Vlad and Loiosh were thinking, I did rather enjoy it being told from the viewpoint of Savn. I think I've gotten a much more clear image of the world in which Vlad resides than any other way -- certainly more than via Paarfi's romances (though I've recently read both The Three Musketeers and Twenty Years After with considerable relish), and likely more than the subsequent telling via changing viewpoints in Orca. I seem to recall there's been some debate about how Vlad lost the little finger on (as I recall) his left hand; in Athyra he describes the open-handed parry, in Orca he states that it was a heavy weight. I think, in grand Brustian manner, (if it wasn't a word before, it is now!!) that both are the truth. To Savn, Vlad tells the literal truth, that it was done via a mostly-successful open-handed sword parry; to Kiera, he tells the metaphorical truth, that it was due to a 'heavy weight', i.e. the burden of trying to keep himself alive. As we've been able to tell, Vlad can talk that way to Kiera; Savn, on the other hand, is a bit young for Vlad's usual conversational style, and I'm pretty certain Vlad recognized that fact. Hmmm. Other things. Can I think of other things to comment on? Not immediately, except that I enjoyed it a lot more than I remembered originally doing so (additional age can do that to you), and that being on this list does indeed enhance my enjoyment of the fiction herein discussed. Vlad walking into a bar with a broad-brimmed hat, a serape, and a cheroot indeed... *walks off whistling 'The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly'...* -- Thomas Crain aka Felix Eisen aka The Wyrm Ouroboros From davids at kithrup.com Sat May 3 13:50:10 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 13:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Book of Athyra In-Reply-To: <8a64398a7d59.8a7d598a6439@icomcast.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 May 2003, Thomas FURNITURE ARTIST wrote: > >I seem to recall there's been some debate about how Vlad lost the >little finger on (as I recall) his left hand; in Athyra he describes >the open-handed parry, in Orca he states that it was a heavy weight. >I think, in grand Brustian manner, (if it wasn't a word before, it is >now!!) that both are the truth. To Savn, Vlad tells the literal >truth, that it was done via a mostly-successful open-handed sword >parry; to Kiera, he tells the metaphorical truth, that it was due to >a 'heavy weight', i.e. the burden of trying to keep himself alive. >As we've been able to tell, Vlad can talk that way to Kiera; Savn, on >the other hand, is a bit young for Vlad's usual conversational style, >and I'm pretty certain Vlad recognized that fact. > On the other hand, it could be that Vlad wanted to lie less to a friend (so gave a more general response), and was willing to lie more a stranger, especially one he wanted to impress. :-) Very Minor Spoiler for "Issola": The story he tells Lady Teldra about the finger is that a sorceror tried to eviscirate him from across the room, and presumably missed (and doesn't give any more detail than that). It has a greater probability of being true than what he told Savn, I think. Another possibility is that they're *all* true, to some extent - a heavy weight crushes his little finger, which makes him clumsy enough that the open-hand parry, occuring fairly shortly thereafter, severs a large chunk of the finger, and finally, the sorceror's spell destroys the last bit. It might make for an engaging story, how seventeen different mishaps occur to him, one after the other, damaging and taking off little bits of his little finger, where the final outcome is of course no finger at all. "I stared at my bandaged hand. If I were superstitious, I might suppose that fate or the gods were trying to tell me something. I thought of giving the gods - or fate - a somewhat different finger, but decided against it on the grounds that they might indeed take offense, and /that/ finger as well." I wonder if Dragaeran medical sorcery includes regeneration? I would think it would have to, given some of the damage we've seen dealt out to bodies which were then healed and resurrected. From Gaertk at aol.com Sat May 3 16:18:43 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 19:18:43 -0400 Subject: Book of Athyra Message-ID: <05B1A719.1F0E78C6.00048EA6@aol.com> David Silberstein writes: [Vlad's missing finger] > Another possibility is that they're *all* true, to some > extent - a heavy weight crushes his little finger, which > makes him clumsy enough that the open-hand parry, occuring > fairly shortly thereafter, severs a large chunk of the > finger, and finally, the sorceror's spell destroys the last > bit. > > It might make for an engaging story, how seventeen > different mishaps occur to him, one after the other, > damaging and taking off little bits of his little finger, > where the final outcome is of course no finger at all. Vlad Taltos is an alternate universe version of James Nicoll? > ? ?"I stared at my bandaged hand. ?If I were superstitious, > I might suppose that fate or the gods were trying to > tell me something. > > ? ? I thought of giving the gods - or fate - a somewhat > different finger, but decided against it on the grounds > that they might indeed take offense, and /that/ finger > as well." hehe --KG From hologram at algonet.se Sun May 4 05:55:56 2003 From: hologram at algonet.se (Nicklas Andersson) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 14:55:56 +0200 Subject: Book of Athyra In-Reply-To: <05B1A719.1F0E78C6.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.2.20030504144307.023fccb0@pop.algonet.se> At 19:18 2003-05-03 -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >David Silberstein writes: > > It might make for an engaging story, how seventeen > > different mishaps occur to him, one after the other, > > damaging and taking off little bits of his little finger, > > where the final outcome is of course no finger at all. > >Vlad Taltos is an alternate universe version of James Nicoll? Nah, Vlad has far too few scars for that theory to be true. / Nicklas -- Soundtrack: Bill Hicks - We Live in a World (Dangerous) From terrick at cox.net Sun May 4 10:19:03 2003 From: terrick at cox.net (Ryan) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 12:19:03 -0500 Subject: Book of Athyra + spoilers for issola In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004401c31261$436cd740$6464a8c0@nngco.mehcpipelines.com> White space in case the subject line isn't enough. .. hope this enough and I am making sense... (finals week brain fried).. >I wonder if Dragaeran medical sorcery includes regeneration? I would >think it would have to, given some of the damage we've seen dealt out >to bodies which were then healed and resurrected. I was wondering if Lady Teldra didn't have some fairly impressive healing/regenerating powers considering Vald using her to fix the arm at the end. Keeping in mind that wasn't something any of the others in his little troupe could fix, seems pretty powerful. I'd wonder if he couldn't just use Lady Teldra to regenerate/regrow his finger if he wanted. (I don't have the book right now but wasn't the term regenerate the damage done to his arm?) From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Sun May 4 14:39:05 2003 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 16:39:05 -0500 Subject: Hand to Hand cross spieces fighting Message-ID: I just had an absurd notion as you may figure from the subject line. You see I have never seen a Dragaeran aside from my minds eye, which can deceive me sometimes. I happened upon the notion of what it would look like to see an Easterner like Vlad trying to punch a Dragaeran in the face. The closest facsimile I can come up with is a 13-year-old kid lunging up to hit an adult sized person. I'm sure there are all kinds of tactics one could use to take head shots at someone whom is quite taller than you but it would seem wrestling tactics (not WWF, but what you'd see in high school wrestling) where it seems short squat and bulky often has an advantage over tall and lanky, though again that could be my perception deceiving me. It makes me think that most conventional fist fighting is hard to achieve against such larger opponents. Anyways though it was worth a word or two. -This Sig is clearly a waste of your time. From djshathe at hotmail.com Sun May 4 16:26:56 2003 From: djshathe at hotmail.com (Dejin Shathe) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 09:26:56 +1000 Subject: Hand to Hand cross spieces fighting Message-ID: "Gametech" wrote: I happened upon the notion of what it would look like to see an Easterner like Vlad trying to punch a Dragaeran in the face. The closest facsimile I can come up with is a 13-year-old kid lunging up to hit an adult sized person. I've always been short - I'm only 5'7" now (which for a male in Australia is quite short) - but when I was 13 I was 4'11" To hit people half a foot taller than me in the face (not, mind you, that this was a daily occurence) required a kind of leaping over-hand swing, which, upon reflection must have looked kind of like a monkey trying to reah a particularly high banana. Now that I've thought about it, I'm having a hard time trying to picture Vlad ever accomplishing this with the easy grace and nonchalant violence that I've always imagined him to have. All of a sudden, instead of seeing the flippant, poised, casual smack in the face I'd always pictured in my head when Vlad hits someone, I'm seeing a little monkey desperately jumping up and down and swiping - like a little kid who wants to touch the top of a doorway (did you do that when you were a kid?) *strikes post of tragic woe* Gametech, you've ruined my hero in my own eyes - how do you feel? ;) -Dejin- PS. Hi everyone - I'm new here - please be gentle with me - I'm little... "It is a fool's prerogative to utter truths that no-one else will speak." _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail now available on Australian mobile phones. Go to http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/hotmail_mobile.asp From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Sun May 4 18:12:10 2003 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 20:12:10 -0500 Subject: Hand to Hand cross spieces fighting References: Message-ID: > > All of a sudden, instead of seeing the flippant, poised, casual smack in the > face I'd always pictured in my head when Vlad hits someone, I'm seeing a > little monkey desperately jumping up and down and swiping - like a little > kid who wants to touch the top of a doorway (did you do that when you were a > kid?) Admintantly I was quite short as a kid as well and that afflicted me also. > *strikes post of tragic woe* Gametech, you've ruined my hero in my own eyes > - how do you feel? ;) Well you see now how I could feel a little cross when the thought struck me. This is my theory to why Vlad uses so many weapons (or extensions if you want to look at it that way) It also make me think that most of the hand to hand technique Vlad has is more engineered towards defense (as many martial arts are). - This Sig is still a waste of your time. From rone at ennui.org Sun May 4 18:37:13 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (circadian rhyme) Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 18:37:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hand to Hand cross spieces fighting In-Reply-To: from Gametech at "May 4, 2003 04:39:05 pm" Message-ID: <20030505013713.2A85526E2D@boredom.ennui.org> Gametech writes: I just had an absurd notion as you may figure from the subject line. You see I have never seen a Dragaeran aside from my minds eye, which can deceive me sometimes. I happened upon the notion of what it would look like to see an Easterner like Vlad trying to punch a Dragaeran in the face. The closest facsimile I can come up with is a 13-year-old kid lunging up to hit an adult sized person. What's even trickier is the way that Vlad managed to bury a dagger in that guy's head at the end of Orca. I wonder if he was wearing his Elton John shoes at the time. rone -- "Alan Alda's all we are." - Kurt Cobain From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun May 4 18:42:15 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 18:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hand to Hand cross spieces fighting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In view of this discussion, it occurs to me that the Jenoine (or the two random ones Vlad first meets) are "more than nine feet tall" so Vlad's pushing a dagger into one's head is rather odd. Say he's 6 feet tall (do we know anything about this?), and say a Jenoine's chin is 8 feet off the ground, I can see this, but only if Vlad is on tippy-toe standing on the Jenoine's feet, which seems unlikely since the J just turned around at the time and has long arms which it presumably swings around when turning... On Sun, 4 May 2003, Gametech wrote: > > > > > > All of a sudden, instead of seeing the flippant, poised, casual smack in > the > > face I'd always pictured in my head when Vlad hits someone, I'm seeing a > > little monkey desperately jumping up and down and swiping - like a little > > kid who wants to touch the top of a doorway (did you do that when you were > a > > kid?) > > Admintantly I was quite short as a kid as well and that afflicted me also. > > > *strikes post of tragic woe* Gametech, you've ruined my hero in my own > eyes > > - how do you feel? ;) > > Well you see now how I could feel a little cross when the thought struck me. > This is my theory to why Vlad uses so many weapons (or extensions if you > want to look at it that way) It also make me think that most of the hand to > hand technique Vlad has is more engineered towards defense (as many martial > arts are). > > - This Sig is still a waste of your time. > > From djshathe at hotmail.com Sun May 4 19:01:47 2003 From: djshathe at hotmail.com (Dejin Shathe) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 12:01:47 +1000 Subject: Hand to Hand cross spieces fighting Message-ID: "Gametech" >Well you see now how I could feel a little cross when the thought struck >me. >This is my theory to why Vlad uses so many weapons (or extensions if you >want to look at it that way) It also make me think that most of the hand to >hand technique Vlad has is more engineered towards defense (as many martial >arts are). And as, it seems, Eastern-style fencing is also. Apart from the odd opportunistic, surprise-attack-style nailing of people through the neck or chest with his rapier, Vlad appears to parry/riposte or avoid and then counterattack a lot more than he charges around waving his sword around his head like a Dzurlord. Vlad's fighting style in general seems to make sense for someone who's weaker and shorter than his opponents (not to mention faster) - it's only when he's doing things like smacking 7 foot people in the head - or stabbing 9 and a half foot Jenoine in the anywhere-higher-than-their-bellybuttons that I can't really work out what he'd look like performing the actions described. Maybe he just jumps a lot and doesn't tell us cos he's all embarrassed about being short. -Dejin- "It is a fool's prerogative to utter truths that no-one else will speak." _________________________________________________________________ MSN Instant Messenger now available on Australian mobile phones.?Go to http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/hotmail_messenger.asp From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Mon May 5 00:55:47 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 07:55:47 +0000 Subject: Hand to Hand cross spieces fighting Message-ID: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030505081744.020c1aa8@mail.whiterose.org> Thomas FURNITURE ARTIST wondered aloud to the group: >Re-reading it (yes, finished already) I believe I can say that though I >almost burn with curiousity in regards to what Vlad and Loiosh were >thinking, I did rather enjoy it being told from the viewpoint of Savn. I disliked it intensely. In my impression, _Athyra_ is about forty pages of story stretched out to 200 by the expedient of a POV character who knows less than anyone else, *including the reader*. Ignorant POV characters are no crime in storytelling, but their most effective use is to smooth exposition--you can tell exposition to an ignorant character to mask telling the reader. But Savn was ignorant of things we already knew. For me, at least, that meant I spent most of the book going, "Yes, that's Vlad. Yes, that's Loiosh. Yes, I know why an Easterner acts like a Jhereg and has a jhereg. Yes, this, yes, that, yes, I know this other thing already, too, just tell the blasted story." Plus none of Vlad's usual supporting cast? Bah. -- "Drill for oil? You mean drill into the ground to try and find oil? You're crazy."--Drillers who Edwin L. Drake tried to enlist in his project to drill for oil in 1859. mailto:Dr.Elmo at whiterose.org http://www.whiterose.org/dr.elmo/blog/ From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Mon May 5 06:56:20 2003 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 08:56:20 -0500 Subject: Hand to Hand cross spieces fighting References: Message-ID: <3EB66D84.20000@attbi.com> Yeah, but now I'm trying to visualize Vlad walking past an assassination target, unobtrusively leaving a dagger in his left eye, and walking on. Mia From jtoth at megrez.org Mon May 5 07:14:19 2003 From: jtoth at megrez.org (Jim Toth) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 10:14:19 -0400 Subject: Hand to Hand cross spieces fighting In-Reply-To: <3EB66D84.20000@attbi.com> References: <3EB66D84.20000@attbi.com> Message-ID: <20030505141419.GA6055@castor.megrez.org> On Mon, May 05, 2003 at 08:56:20AM -0500, Mia McDavid (mia_mcdavid at attbi.com) said: > Yeah, but now I'm trying to visualize Vlad walking past an assassination > target, unobtrusively leaving a dagger in his left eye, and walking on. How often are his targets sitting down? -- Jim Toth jtoth at megrez.org From RuhlenR at missouri.edu Mon May 5 07:33:46 2003 From: RuhlenR at missouri.edu (Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student)) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 09:33:46 -0500 Subject: Hand to Hand cross spieces fighting Message-ID: <5933733D73CBA149A8178066DE6022B90610FA@COL-EMAIL3.col.missouri.edu> > -----Original Message----- > From: Dejin Shathe [mailto:djshathe at hotmail.com] > Maybe he just jumps a lot and doesn't tell us cos he's all > embarrassed about > being short. Maybe he exaggerates too. Nah! Rachel From ikep at umbc.edu Mon May 5 08:50:35 2003 From: ikep at umbc.edu (Ike Porter) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 11:50:35 -0400 Subject: Book of Athyra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Apologies if the attrib is incorrect... On Sat, 3 May 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > I wonder if Dragaeran medical sorcery includes regeneration? I would > think it would have to, given some of the damage we've seen dealt out > to bodies which were then healed and resurrected. It seemed to me that he was keeping the finger as is, regardless of any ability to have it regenerated, as a memento, although I couldn't say why. brother ike unix sysadmin my thoughts alone From davids at kithrup.com Mon May 5 09:06:48 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 09:06:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hand to Hand cross spieces fighting In-Reply-To: <3EB66D84.20000@attbi.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 May 2003, Mia McDavid wrote: >Yeah, but now I'm trying to visualize Vlad walking past an >assassination target, unobtrusively leaving a dagger in his left eye, >and walking on. > I suspect that Vlad has long been familiar with ways of getting Dragaeran foes to move their bodies in such a way so that their eyes do end up closer to where his knife-hand is. Knees, ankles, groins and so forth can be struck, legs can be tripped, etc. There's a dwarfish saying: "All trees are felled at ground-level" -- although this is said to be an excessively bowdlerized translation for a saw which more literally means, "When his hands are higher than your head, his groin is level with your teeth." -- Terry Pratchett, from "Feet of Clay" From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon May 5 10:51:37 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 10:51:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hand to Hand cross spieces fighting Message-ID: <200305051751.h45HpZK22655@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Yeah, but now I'm trying to visualize Vlad walking past an assassination > target, unobtrusively leaving a dagger in his left eye, and walking on. I think it depends on how tall the target is. I'm six foot (almost exactly) and my arms can easily reach up to someone a foot, foot and a half taller and stick a dagger in the eye. More than that, and I'll have some problems. Hmm.... Does Vlad wear heels? Maybe add a couple of inches to those Darr-skin boots of his? I can see why he wouldn't want to mention those.... Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon May 5 10:54:58 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 10:54:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Book of Athyra Message-ID: <200305051754.h45HstK23432@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > > I wonder if Dragaeran medical sorcery includes regeneration? I would > > think it would have to, given some of the damage we've seen dealt out > > to bodies which were then healed and resurrected. > > It seemed to me that he was keeping the finger as is, regardless of any > ability to have it regenerated, as a memento, although I couldn't say why. Of course he would! Ya never know when a good finger might be called for in witchcraft.... Chris "If you can't live without me, die already." ~Cynthia Heimel From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Mon May 5 12:17:01 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 19:17:01 +0000 Subject: Hand to Hand cross spieces fighting Message-ID: >From: David Silberstein >I suspect that Vlad has long been familiar with ways of getting >Dragaeran foes to move their bodies in such a way so that their eyes >do end up closer to where his knife-hand is. Knees, ankles, groins >and so forth can be struck, legs can be tripped, etc. > There's a dwarfish saying: "All trees are felled at ground-level" > -- although this is said to be an excessively bowdlerized > translation for a saw which more literally means, "When his hands > are higher than your head, his groin is level with your teeth." > -- Terry Pratchett, from "Feet of Clay" First of all, sorry everybody for my first message: I haven't present myself as newcomer. I really like the idea of David, it fits a lot with Vlad, doesn't it?. But I think that if he used this "groin" method he wouldn't be embarrassed to explain it whereas it will if he needed to jump or wear special boots. On the other hand, this size problem fighting fits a lot with the skills of Cawti as an assassin: she es better throwing knives than Vlad, but it must taken into account that a close fighting will be harder for her than for him. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Compras: Veinte tiendas personales abiertas todo el d?a. http://www.msn.es/compras/ From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon May 5 15:18:05 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 15:18:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: topical reference to Dragon Message-ID: Former drug czar William Bennett, author of The Book of Virtues and scourge of left-wing evildoers, reportedly has dropped $8 million over the past decade gambling. Reading http://www.msnbc.com/news/908430.asp?cp1=1 reminded me of Vlad's conversation about the subject: "There's a term in the trade for his kind of gambler," says a casino source who has witnessed Bennett at the high-limit slots in the wee hours. "We call them losers." "Over 10 years, I'd say I've come out pretty close to even," Bennett says, though he wouldn't discuss any specific figures. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon May 5 15:21:17 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 15:21:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: topical reference to Dragon Message-ID: <200305052221.h45MLEK19875@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Former drug czar William Bennett, author of The Book of Virtues and > scourge of left-wing evildoers, reportedly has dropped $8 million over the > past decade gambling. Reading http://www.msnbc.com/news/908430.asp?cp1=1 > reminded me of Vlad's conversation about the subject: > > "Over 10 years, I'd say I've come out pretty close to even," Bennett > says, though he wouldn't discuss any specific figures. All right, that's damn funny. Thanks for the posting! Chris (Who wonders if gambling was in his "Book of Virtues"...;) From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue May 6 16:17:03 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 16:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Book of Athyra In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030505081744.020c1aa8@mail.whiterose.org> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030505081744.020c1aa8@mail.whiterose.org> Message-ID: Though _A_ is not my favorite installment in the Vladiad, I think you underestimate the book. I thought it was interesting to learn what life is like for the majority of Dragaerans - this is important in evaluating the political elements of _Teckla_/_Phoenix_. We learn a good deal about witchcraft. We get to see Vlad interacting with someone he doesn't feel inferior to, someone intelligent and sympathetic enough to be a worthwhile foil; Vlad seems much more like an adult than he does interacting with Sethra, Morrolan, and Aliera. I thought the surgery scene was well-done, and the minor characters of Master Wag and Sara were well-sketched. The final confrontation in the dark was also excellent. I also appreciated getting to see things from Rocza's viewpoint for once - not as interesting as Loiosh's perhaps (though some of it comes through indirectly), but worth reading a few pages. Admittedly the novel does drag in spots, especially compared to the earlier Vlad novels. In fact my own objection to the novel is related to this - Loraan spends too much time twiddling his thumbs and not enough blasting away (he sends a handful of guards who can't trace a teleport?), when anyway he has no business being undead after meeting Blackwand. For a topical example of the usefulness of Savn's viewpoint, this list has recently discussed the effect of Vlad's height on his fighting style. Turning to _A_, we find that when Vlad is attacked in the inn he jumps onto a table. Maybe we wouldn't have gotten this detail in first person. - Philip On Mon, 5 May 2003, Greg Morrow wrote: > Thomas FURNITURE ARTIST wondered aloud to the group: > >Re-reading it (yes, finished already) I believe I can say that though I > >almost burn with curiousity in regards to what Vlad and Loiosh were > >thinking, I did rather enjoy it being told from the viewpoint of Savn. > > I disliked it intensely. In my impression, _Athyra_ is about forty pages > of story stretched out to 200 by the expedient of a POV character who knows > less than anyone else, *including the reader*. Ignorant POV characters are > no crime in storytelling, but their most effective use is to smooth > exposition--you can tell exposition to an ignorant character to mask > telling the reader. > > But Savn was ignorant of things we already knew. For me, at least, that > meant I spent most of the book going, "Yes, that's Vlad. Yes, that's > Loiosh. Yes, I know why an Easterner acts like a Jhereg and has a > jhereg. Yes, this, yes, that, yes, I know this other thing already, too, > just tell the blasted story." > Plus none of Vlad's usual supporting cast? Bah. > > -- > "Drill for oil? You mean drill into the ground to try and find oil? You're > crazy."--Drillers who Edwin L. Drake tried to enlist in his project to > drill for oil in 1859. > > mailto:Dr.Elmo at whiterose.org > http://www.whiterose.org/dr.elmo/blog/ > > From mam at theworld.com Wed May 7 07:04:55 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 10:04:55 -0400 Subject: Book of Athyra In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030505081744.020c1aa8@mail.whiterose.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 May 2003, Greg Morrow wrote: #Thomas FURNITURE ARTIST wondered aloud to the group: # >Re-reading it (yes, finished already) I believe I can say that though I # >almost burn with curiousity in regards to what Vlad and Loiosh were # >thinking, I did rather enjoy it being told from the viewpoint of Savn. # #I disliked it intensely. In my impression, _Athyra_ is about forty pages #of story stretched out to 200 by the expedient of a POV character who knows #less than anyone else, *including the reader*. Ignorant POV characters are #no crime in storytelling, but their most effective use is to smooth #exposition--you can tell exposition to an ignorant character to mask #telling the reader. # #But Savn was ignorant of things we already knew. For me, at least, that #meant I spent most of the book going, "Yes, that's Vlad. Yes, that's #Loiosh. Yes, I know why an Easterner acts like a Jhereg and has a #jhereg. Yes, this, yes, that, yes, I know this other thing already, too, #just tell the blasted story." #Plus none of Vlad's usual supporting cast? Bah. Which just goes to show again that tastes vary. I enjoyed seeing Vlad through Savn's eyes and mind. We'd never seen Vlad from anyone else's point of view before (unless you count Kelly, Paresh, et al.'s reactions to him, as reported by Vlad himself), and this POV was very different >from Vlad's and those of anyone else who'd met him. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Wed May 7 10:51:23 2003 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 10:51:23 -0700 Subject: Spoilers- PotD and Issola Message-ID: Spoilers- PotD and Issola A question- When Does the Interregnum end? When Zerika emerges from the Paths with the Orb? or when she is formally Empress over all the pre-Disaster lands claimed by the Empire? It sems to me that sometimes the Interregnum is referred to as ending when she comes out of the Paths, and I think (not currently certain) that PotD sufforts that view, whereas in Issola, Lady Teldra's story about Morrolan as division commander seems to imply that the big I wasn't over until sometime after Zerika emerged. James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed May 7 11:00:52 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 11:00:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Spoilers- PotD and Issola Message-ID: <200305071800.h47I0lK18835@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Spoilers- PotD and Issola > > > > > > > > > > > A question- When Does the Interregnum end? When Zerika emerges from the > Paths with the Orb? > or when she is formally Empress over all the pre-Disaster lands claimed by > the Empire? > > It sems to me that sometimes the Interregnum is referred to as ending when > she comes out of the Paths, and I think (not currently certain) that PotD > sufforts that view, whereas in Issola, Lady Teldra's story about Morrolan as > division commander seems to imply that the big I wasn't over until sometime > after Zerika emerged. I think, as most views from Dragaera, that it depends on who you ask. Orbly-speaking, it ended when Zerika brought the Orb back from the Paths. At least, that's when the Orb started functioning again and allowing citizens to draw on it for spells, check the Orb-Watch, etc. However, the Interregnum might not have "officially" ended until Zerika took back the throne. Again, I believe it depends on who is answering the question. 'Course, maybe, in Zerika's mind, it didn't *really* end until Zerika was able to sit down and enjoy a glass of Dead Bodies and Seaweed.... Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed May 7 18:58:34 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 18:58:34 -0700 Subject: Spoilers- PotD and Issola In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030507185807.027fd440@localhost> At 10:51 AM 5/7/2003 -0700, James Griffin wrote: >Spoilers- PotD and Issola > > > > > > > > > > >A question- When Does the Interregnum end? When Zerika emerges from the >Paths with the Orb? >or when she is formally Empress over all the pre-Disaster lands claimed by >the Empire? Funny--Paarfi was wondering the same thing. From tim at radarradar.com Wed May 7 18:33:37 2003 From: tim at radarradar.com (Tim Wilson) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 18:33:37 -0700 Subject: Spoilers- PotD and Issola References: <200305071800.h47I0lK18835@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <002101c31501$d9d54850$ec4c7843@Beeler> > > Spoilers- PotD and Issola > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A question- When Does the Interregnum end? When Zerika emerges from the > > Paths with the Orb? > > or when she is formally Empress over all the pre-Disaster lands claimed by > > the Empire? > > > > It sems to me that sometimes the Interregnum is referred to as ending when > > she comes out of the Paths, and I think (not currently certain) that PotD > > sufforts that view, whereas in Issola, Lady Teldra's story about Morrolan as > > division commander seems to imply that the big I wasn't over until sometime > > after Zerika emerged. > > I think, as most views from Dragaera, that it depends on who you ask. > Orbly-speaking, it ended when Zerika brought the Orb back from the > Paths. At least, that's when the Orb started functioning again and > allowing citizens to draw on it for spells, check the Orb-Watch, etc. > > However, the Interregnum might not have "officially" ended until Zerika > took back the throne. Again, I believe it depends on who is answering > the question. > > 'Course, maybe, in Zerika's mind, it didn't *really* end until Zerika was > able to sit down and enjoy a glass of Dead Bodies and Seaweed.... > > Chris > "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you > in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." > -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' And really, who is to say Zerika emerges immediately afterward? We all know that time passes differently in the paths of the dead than it does in drageara, so, concieveably she may be in there well into the next two books. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu May 8 01:34:46 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 01:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Spoilers- PotD and Issola In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030507185807.027fd440@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030507185807.027fd440@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 May 2003, Steven Brust wrote: > At 10:51 AM 5/7/2003 -0700, James Griffin wrote: > >Spoilers- PotD and Issola > > >A question- When Does the Interregnum end? When Zerika emerges from the > >Paths with the Orb? > >or when she is formally Empress over all the pre-Disaster lands claimed by > >the Empire? > > Funny--Paarfi was wondering the same thing. Given that Paarfi is a Hawk, I wonder what he does while he wonders - presumably he doesn't walk, knit, or sharpen a sword. Probably he lolls in a hot tub full of nubile history groupies, if Dragaerans can be nubile in the non-dictionary sense. From charles_sumner at harvard.edu Mon May 12 09:30:44 2003 From: charles_sumner at harvard.edu (charles_sumner at harvard.edu) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 12:30:44 -0400 Subject: Length of the Interregnum (Was Re: Spoilers- PotD and Issola) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030512111439.03302ac8@camail2.harvard.edu> How long did the interregnum last? Well, an interregnum is defined as: 1) The interval of time between the end of a sovereign's reign and the accession of a successor. 2) A period of temporary suspension of the usual functions of government or control. 3) A gap in continuity. (From: American Heritage Dictionary - http://www.yourdictionary.com/) So it could be viewed as lasting until Zerika is formally acknowledged as Empress (definition 1), until she managed to get the empire back in working order (definition 2 - with no currently known clearly defined date), or until she returned with the Orb (definition 3). However, even if you consider the interregnum to end the moment Zerika emerged with the Orb, that would make it only about 240 years before the Jhereg books begin (and even less if you go by definition 1 or 2). This would be roughly the equivalent of 35-40 years in the human frame of reference. Based on that, I think that the confusion in the books over the length of the Interregnum is perfectly reasonable considering how recent those events would be to the currently living Dragaerans and that what "the Interregnum" means is probably changes depending on who is asked. To put this question in perspective, we should think about our own point of view about events that happened in the 1960s to 1970s. A good example would be the Vietnam war. This is recent history that covers a major world event so people should be on the same page about it's length, but in actuality are far from it. Depending on your point of view, you could say that the war began in 1963 when the US began sending troops over in earnest, or in 1960 when the National Liberation Front was founded, or in 1954 when the demarcation zone was established, or in 1950 when Truman sent military advisors over to aid the French in maintaining colonial power, or maybe it's just a continuation of the First Indochina War that began in 1946 when the Vietnamese began fighting against the French. The end of the Vietnam war is also tricky and depends on your point of view. Peace talks began as early as 1968 but the fighting continued well into the 70s. It could be the war ended in 1973 when Nixon withdrew the US troops and peace agreements were reached, although the cease-fire agreements between the North and South Vietnamese were regularly ignored. A friend of mine I've been chatting with about this says she felt that the war ended in 1974 when Nixon resigned, ignoring the fact that Saigon didn't surrender until 1975 and that full-scale conflicts between the North and South continued. Or maybe it's 1976 when Vietnam officially became the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. For that matter what about the MIAs who were found well into the 1980s and it wasn't until 1995 that the US formally restored diplomatic relations with Vietnam. Similarly, is the war in Iraq really a separate conflict that should be viewed on its own, or is it just a continuation of the events that began when Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990? And is it over now or not? When viewed through this lens, the differing descriptions of the length of the Interregnum that appear in different books makes a lot of sense as different characters would have different opinions about it and it's something that's recent enough that the weight of history has yet to pin down official dates for. [And now I have to say... Whew, that was a heck of a long first post to the mailing list from someone who's been lurking for a while.] Charley Charley Sumner charles_sumner at harvard.edu "Let's not jump to any conclusions." "I didn't jump. I took a tiny step, and there conclusions were." Buffy the Vampire Slayer - "Phases" From davids at kithrup.com Wed May 14 19:00:13 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 19:00:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon Message-ID: Well, there's an entry with description &tc: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312855826 Picture o' Morrolan! http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0312855826.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg Perhaps I am hallucinating, but the face appears to bear a most striking resemblance to John Travolta. Hmph. Barnes and Noble has it as well: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=0312855826 From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Wed May 14 19:31:40 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 19:31:40 -0700 Subject: Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6pu5cv05i03fsfc0vkrlgka6fcd3q7hn13@4ax.com> On Wed, 14 May 2003 19:00:13 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >Well, there's an entry with description &tc: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312855826 > >Picture o' Morrolan! > > http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0312855826.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg > >Perhaps I am hallucinating, but the face appears to bear a most >striking resemblance to John Travolta. Hmph. > >Barnes and Noble has it as well: > >http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?isbn=0312855826 Is this a spoiler? s p o i l e r s p a c e Quote from the Amazon Blurb: And from Sethra Lavode he has received a gift of immense significance and power: Blackwand, a magical artifact in the form of a sword. -- lazarus "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American Public." -- Theodore Roosevelt From matthew at infodancer.org Wed May 14 20:53:32 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 22:53:32 -0500 Subject: Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030515035332.GA18887@infodancer.org> On Wed, May 14, 2003 at 07:00:13PM -0700, David Silberstein wrote: > Well, there's an entry with description &tc: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312855826 > > Picture o' Morrolan! > http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0312855826.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg So... I have to ask. Conan, or Elric? -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From terrick at cox.net Wed May 14 20:55:55 2003 From: terrick at cox.net (Ryan) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 22:55:55 -0500 Subject: Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon In-Reply-To: <20030515035332.GA18887@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <000001c31a95$e314db30$6464a8c0@nngco.mehcpipelines.com> >> Well, there's an entry with description &tc: >> >> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312855826 >> >> Picture o' Morrolan! >> http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0312855826.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg > >So... I have to ask. Conan, or Elric? Elric From davids at kithrup.com Wed May 14 22:17:38 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 22:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon In-Reply-To: <000001c31a95$e314db30$6464a8c0@nngco.mehcpipelines.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 May 2003, Ryan wrote: >>> Picture o' Morrolan! >>> http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0312855826.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg >> >>So... I have to ask. Conan, or Elric? > >Elric > But he's not albino! That light-looking hair is just a trick of the sunlight. Wait a minute... Sunlight? In Dragaera? A-ha! He must be in Castle Black, *above* the Overcast. From mtiller at ntlworld.com Thu May 15 02:41:00 2003 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 10:41:00 +0100 Subject: Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001001c31ac6$1b797fa0$0101a8c0@markspc> -----Original Message----- From: David Silberstein [mailto:davids at kithrup.com] Sent: 15 May 2003 06:18 To: Dragaera List Subject: RE: Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon >A-ha! He must be in Castle Black, *above* the Overcast. But we know from VLAD's description, that you can see the ground from Castle Black Mark From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Thu May 15 03:38:18 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 10:38:18 +0000 Subject: Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon Message-ID: >From: David Silberstein >To: Dragaera List >Subject: RE: Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon >Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 22:17:38 -0700 (PDT) > >On Wed, 14 May 2003, Ryan wrote: > > >>> Picture o' Morrolan! > >>> http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0312855826.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg > >> > >>So... I have to ask. Conan, or Elric? > > > >Elric > > > >But he's not albino! That light-looking hair is just a trick of the >sunlight. > >Wait a minute... Sunlight? In Dragaera? > >A-ha! He must be in Castle Black, *above* the Overcast. > Well, at least he does not appear with a huge beard. I do not know in the English editions, but in the Spanish edition of Yendi, Vlad doesn't have any moustache in the cover picture. _________________________________________________________________ Dale rienda suelta a tu tiempo libre. Encuentra mil ideas para exprimir tu ocio con MSN Entretenimiento. http://entretenimiento.msn.es/ From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Thu May 15 03:38:04 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 10:38:04 +0000 Subject: Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon Message-ID: >From: David Silberstein >To: Dragaera List >Subject: RE: Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon >Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 22:17:38 -0700 (PDT) > >On Wed, 14 May 2003, Ryan wrote: > > >>> Picture o' Morrolan! > >>> http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0312855826.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg > >> > >>So... I have to ask. Conan, or Elric? > > > >Elric > > > >But he's not albino! That light-looking hair is just a trick of the >sunlight. > >Wait a minute... Sunlight? In Dragaera? > >A-ha! He must be in Castle Black, *above* the Overcast. > Well, at least he does not appear with a huge beard. I do not know in the English editions, but in the Spanish edition of Yendi, Vlad doesn't have any moustache in the cover picture. _________________________________________________________________ Accede al romance onine. Descubre gente que busca a otra gente en MSN Amor & Amistad. http://match.msn.es/ From baralier at optusnet.com.au Thu May 15 05:21:10 2003 From: baralier at optusnet.com.au (Baralier) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 22:21:10 +1000 Subject: Paths of the Dead query Message-ID: <00c101c31adc$b5eb2640$18a231d2@valadan> Just wondering if anyone can shed some light on this: http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/books/n2/n12766.htm?authorid=4564 According to this site Paths of the dead was originally published over 10 years ago by Pan (though as a Trade Paperback) and it's seemingly taken all this time for it to come out in Hard cover. I haven't read either as I'm still waiting for the paperback release. Are they smoking something they shouldn't or is there a "secret publishing conspiracy" going on here somewhere? Steven? Anyone? Baralier -- It's easier to ask forgiveness than to get permission. - W. Slovotsky http://members.optushome.com.au/velvetspyder Costumier & Reprobate From fides at kludgeco.com Thu May 15 06:17:21 2003 From: fides at kludgeco.com (Fides) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:17:21 +0100 Subject: Paths of the Dead query In-Reply-To: <00c101c31adc$b5eb2640$18a231d2@valadan> References: <00c101c31adc$b5eb2640$18a231d2@valadan> Message-ID: <3EC39361.4040605@kludgeco.com> Baralier wrote: > Just wondering if anyone can shed some light on this: > > http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/books/n2/n12766.htm?authorid=4564 > > According to this site Paths of the dead was originally published over 10 > years ago by Pan (though as a Trade Paperback) and it's seemingly taken all > this time for it to come out in Hard cover. > > I haven't read either as I'm still waiting for the paperback release. > > Are they smoking something they shouldn't or is there a "secret publishing > conspiracy" going on here somewhere? > No it is just a confusion between Paths of the Dead (the most recently published of the Khaavren Romances) and Taltos and the Paths of the Dead (with the 'Taltos and the' is small letters and 'Paths of the Dead' in big letters) which is the book with Taltos and Morrolan going through the Paths. I believe it if more often refered to as Taltos although until I joined this group and PoTD came out I knew it as Paths of the Dead. They are different books but with confusingly similar names. Hope that helps, ;-) Fides From mr1 at rcosta.com Thu May 15 08:58:18 2003 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 11:58:18 -0400 Subject: Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon In-Reply-To: <20030515035332.GA18887@infodancer.org> References: Message-ID: <3EC380DA.6998.977232@localhost> On 14 May 2003 at 22:53, Matthew Hunter wrote > > So... I have to ask. Conan, or Elric? > He does have the Conan pose down...but he's wearing too many clothes to be a mighty thewed Barbarian King. M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From zizban at adelphia.net Thu May 15 09:00:34 2003 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 12:00:34 -0400 Subject: Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon In-Reply-To: <3EC380DA.6998.977232@localhost> Message-ID: <5CD28E1A-86EE-11D7-AF21-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> On Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 11:58 AM, Michele Riccio wrote: > On 14 May 2003 at 22:53, Matthew Hunter wrote >> >> So... I have to ask. Conan, or Elric? >> > > He does have the Conan pose down...but he's wearing too many > clothes to be a mighty thewed Barbarian King. > > M > Michele Riccio > mr1 at rcosta.com When Conan was a king he got dressed up, usually only to get undressed. ------ "...Wouldn't it be worse if life were fair, and everything bad that happens to us happens because we deserve it?" -Marcus Cole, Babylon 5. From agrajag at dragaera.net Thu May 15 09:11:23 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 15 May 2003 12:11:23 -0400 Subject: Paths of the Dead query In-Reply-To: <3EC39361.4040605@kludgeco.com> References: <00c101c31adc$b5eb2640$18a231d2@valadan> <3EC39361.4040605@kludgeco.com> Message-ID: <1053015083.2151.6.camel@loiosh> On Thu, 2003-05-15 at 09:17, Fides wrote: > Baralier wrote: > > Just wondering if anyone can shed some light on this: > > > > http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/books/n2/n12766.htm?authorid=4564 > > > > According to this site Paths of the dead was originally published over 10 > > years ago by Pan (though as a Trade Paperback) and it's seemingly taken all > > this time for it to come out in Hard cover. > > > > I haven't read either as I'm still waiting for the paperback release. > > > > Are they smoking something they shouldn't or is there a "secret publishing > > conspiracy" going on here somewhere? > > > > No it is just a confusion between Paths of the Dead (the most recently > published of the Khaavren Romances) and Taltos and the Paths of the Dead > (with the 'Taltos and the' is small letters and 'Paths of the Dead' in > big letters) which is the book with Taltos and Morrolan going through > the Paths. I believe it if more often refered to as Taltos although > until I joined this group and PoTD came out I knew it as Paths of the > Dead. They are different books but with confusingly similar names. Strange. I noticed that confusion on the webpage as well. However, I'd never heard it called 'Taltos and the Paths of the Dead' until today. I have the 1988 Ace paperback edition which just calls it 'Taltos'. For reference, this is the copy I have, and the only one I've ever seen: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0441182003/ref=lib_dp_TFCV/104-6138601-6027105?v=glance&s=books&vi=reader#reader-link From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu May 15 09:54:11 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 09:54:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Paths of the Dead query Message-ID: <200305151654.h4FGs4I16779@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Strange. I noticed that confusion on the webpage as well. However, I'd > never heard it called 'Taltos and the Paths of the Dead' until today. I > have the 1988 Ace paperback edition which just calls it 'Taltos'. For > reference, this is the copy I have, and the only one I've ever seen: This is the only one I have seen, too. Anyone have an image of the one which says 'Taltos and the Paths of the Dead'? I'd love to see it (anything new and different...:) Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu May 15 09:55:33 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 09:55:33 -0700 Subject: Paths of the Dead query In-Reply-To: <3EC39361.4040605@kludgeco.com> References: <00c101c31adc$b5eb2640$18a231d2@valadan> <00c101c31adc$b5eb2640$18a231d2@valadan> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030515095345.034a1ce0@localhost> At 02:17 PM 5/15/2003 +0100, Fides wrote: >> > >No it is just a confusion between Paths of the Dead (the most recently >published of the Khaavren Romances) and Taltos and the Paths of the Dead >(with the 'Taltos and the' is small letters and 'Paths of the Dead' in big >letters) which is the book with Taltos and Morrolan going through the >Paths. I believe it if more often refered to as Taltos although until I >joined this group and PoTD came out I knew it as Paths of the Dead. They >are different books but with confusingly similar names. The book was called _Taltos_ when I wrote it. It was still called _Taltos_ when Ace published it. Pan bought rights for a British edition and, for reasons best known to themselves, re-titled it _Taltos and the Paths of the Dead_ and put a Hitler Youth on the cover. If they'd asked me, I'd have suggested that this was a poor idea. From fides at kludgeco.com Thu May 15 10:13:44 2003 From: fides at kludgeco.com (Fides) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 18:13:44 +0100 Subject: Paths of the Dead query In-Reply-To: <1053015083.2151.6.camel@loiosh> References: <00c101c31adc$b5eb2640$18a231d2@valadan> <3EC39361.4040605@kludgeco.com> <1053015083.2151.6.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: <3EC3CAC8.1060502@kludgeco.com> Jag wrote: > On Thu, 2003-05-15 at 09:17, Fides wrote: >>No it is just a confusion between Paths of the Dead (the most recently >>published of the Khaavren Romances) and Taltos and the Paths of the Dead >>(with the 'Taltos and the' is small letters and 'Paths of the Dead' in >>big letters) which is the book with Taltos and Morrolan going through >>the Paths. I believe it if more often refered to as Taltos although >>until I joined this group and PoTD came out I knew it as Paths of the >>Dead. They are different books but with confusingly similar names. > > > Strange. I noticed that confusion on the webpage as well. However, I'd > never heard it called 'Taltos and the Paths of the Dead' until today. I > have the 1988 Ace paperback edition which just calls it 'Taltos'. For > reference, this is the copy I have, and the only one I've ever seen: > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0441182003/ref=lib_dp_TFCV/104-6138601-6027105?v=glance&s=books&vi=reader#reader-link I have the 'Paths of the Dead' version. I believe it is published by Pan rather than Ace. I have tried to scour the web for proof beyond 'well my copy is around here somewhere unless I gave it back to my parents'. Amazon.com doesn't have anything but Amazon.co.uk has a minamalist entry (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0330307924/ref=sr_aps_books_1_1/026-1239277-3809209) and the only other useful thing I could find was " * _Taltos and the Paths of the Dead (Pan 0-330-30792-4, Jul ?91, ?4.99, 181pp, tp, cover by Fred Gambino) [*Vlad Taltos] Reprint (Ace 1988 as Taltos) fantasy novel. Volume 4 in the ?Vlad Taltos? series. [First U.K. edition]" from http://www.locusmag.com/index/b73.html#A880.26 which leads me to think that 'Taltos and the Paths of the Dead' was the UK title. Which would explain, my being a UK person, why I have the version with that title. ;-) Fides From casey at trinityhartford.org Thu May 15 05:34:48 2003 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:34:48 -0400 Subject: Paths of the Dead query In-Reply-To: <00c101c31adc$b5eb2640$18a231d2@valadan> Message-ID: Baralier wrote: > Just wondering if anyone can shed some light on this: > > http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/books/n2/n12766.htm?authorid=4564 > > According to this site Paths of the dead was originally published over 10 > years ago by Pan (though as a Trade Paperback) and it's seemingly > taken all this time for it to come out in Hard cover. > > I haven't read either as I'm still waiting for the paperback release. > > Are they smoking something they shouldn't or is there a "secret publishing > conspiracy" going on here somewhere? > > Steven? Anyone? There has been previous discussion about this. The book that was expected under that title was in fact _Taltos_. Recall that the book recounts travels to the Paths by Vlad & Co. Casey From casey at trinityhartford.org Thu May 15 05:37:38 2003 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:37:38 -0400 Subject: Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David Silberstein wrote: > Perhaps I am hallucinating, but the face appears to bear a most > striking resemblance to John Travolta. Hmph. I can see the resemblance, too, but I'm unsure as to whether I would have noticed it unprompted. From rone at ennui.org Thu May 15 10:43:13 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (circadian rhyme) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 10:43:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon In-Reply-To: from Casey Rousseau at "May 15, 2003 08:37:38 am" Message-ID: <20030515174313.7F60E26E37@boredom.ennui.org> Casey Rousseau writes: David Silberstein wrote: > Perhaps I am hallucinating, but the face appears to bear a most > striking resemblance to John Travolta. Hmph. I can see the resemblance, too, but I'm unsure as to whether I would have noticed it unprompted. As do i, although i think the resemblance is striking as well. I asked my wife who he resembled, and she said Val Kilmer or maybe the guy who played Draco Malfoy's father. rone -- "Alan Alda's all we are." - Kurt Cobain From warlord at dragon.com Thu May 15 11:29:05 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:29:05 -0400 Subject: Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > David Silberstein wrote: > > Perhaps I am hallucinating, but the face appears to bear a most > > striking resemblance to John Travolta. Hmph. > > I can see the resemblance, too, but I'm unsure as to whether I would have > noticed it unprompted. > > It is a book cover. Specific book cover rules state unequivocally that 1) they are to attract as much attention as possible and 2) Under no circumstances whatsoever are they to be more than 30% accurate. W > Why do fools fall in love? And in response, thus spake the Internet Oracle: } They ignore the warning signs and keep climbing the damn fence. From rblackstock at ersgroup.com Thu May 15 11:27:52 2003 From: rblackstock at ersgroup.com (BLACKSTOCK, ROB) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:27:52 -0400 Subject: Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon Message-ID: This brings up a good point: how does the process of developing cover art for a new book come about? Does the artist actually read the book? Is the artist only given a 2 paragraph summary of the story and characters? For years I've wondered why book covers have so little to do with the stories they illustrate... Especially in fantasy fiction. Does anyone know? -----Original Message----- From: Warlord [mailto:warlord at dragon.com] Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 2:29 PM To: Dragaera Subject: RE: Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon > > David Silberstein wrote: > > Perhaps I am hallucinating, but the face appears to bear a most > > striking resemblance to John Travolta. Hmph. > > I can see the resemblance, too, but I'm unsure as to whether I would > have noticed it unprompted. > > It is a book cover. Specific book cover rules state unequivocally that 1) they are to attract as much attention as possible and 2) Under no circumstances whatsoever are they to be more than 30% accurate. W > Why do fools fall in love? And in response, thus spake the Internet Oracle: } They ignore the warning signs and keep climbing the damn fence. From warlord at dragon.com Thu May 15 11:36:37 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 14:36:37 -0400 Subject: Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon In-Reply-To: <5CD28E1A-86EE-11D7-AF21-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> Message-ID: > ------ > "...Wouldn't it be worse if life were fair, and everything bad that > happens to us happens because we deserve it?" > -Marcus Cole, Babylon 5. > Hell no. Then I would always be wondering what I did previously to deserve what I have. I prefer to think of the universe as neutrally benevolent, and simply laughing at me behind my back. W Pluto Neptune Uranus Saturn Jupiter Mars Earth Venus Mercury Sun . o o o O . . . . /\ ^ \/ -- You are here From agrajag at dragaera.net Thu May 15 11:36:35 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 15 May 2003 14:36:35 -0400 Subject: Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1053023795.2151.9.camel@loiosh> On Thu, 2003-05-15 at 14:27, BLACKSTOCK, ROB wrote: > This brings up a good point: how does the process of developing cover > art for a new book come about? > Does the artist actually read the book? Is the artist only given a 2 > paragraph summary of the story and characters? > For years I've wondered why book covers have so little to do with the > stories they illustrate... Especially in fantasy fiction. > > Does anyone know? They're given nothing but the name of the book and the author. From there they proceed to their local psychic who tries to read the author's mind and find out about the story. And based off of that they draw the coverart. I think we should be thankful that books have as good of covers at they do considering that :) From davids at kithrup.com Thu May 15 11:38:54 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 11:38:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon In-Reply-To: <001001c31ac6$1b797fa0$0101a8c0@markspc> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 May 2003, Mark Tiller wrote: > >-----Original Message----- >From: David Silberstein [mailto:davids at kithrup.com] > >>A-ha! He must be in Castle Black, *above* the Overcast. > >But we know from VLAD's description, that you can see the ground >from Castle Black > Think of it like this: You're a young Dragonlord. You've learned sorcery, and how to do cool tricks with it. You've just recently learned the secrets of castle levitation of your e'Drien ancestors, and you've just levitated your first castle. Wouldn't you say to yourself, "Let's see how high I can take this puppy..."? (Although since this is Morrolan, it would be more like "I wish to observe to what heights I can reach.") Naturally, after Lady Teldra gently suggests that his guests would be more comfortable at somewhat lower elevations, he brings it back down again below the Overcast. Although at this point it occurs to me that the picture might be of him on Dzur Mountain in Sethra's abode at the top, which was above the Overcast at least part of the time during the Interregnum. From Gaertk at aol.com Thu May 15 12:34:34 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 15:34:34 -0400 Subject: Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon Message-ID: <3A9B21EF.4CA596AD.00048EA6@aol.com> "BLACKSTOCK, ROB" writes: > This brings up a good point: how does the process of > developing cover art for a new book come about? > Does the artist actually read the book? ?Is the artist only > given a 2 paragraph summary of the story and characters? > For years I've wondered why book covers have so little to > do with the stories they illustrate... Especially in > fantasy fiction. > > Does anyone know? It varies a lot. In some cases (like with Robert Jordan), the publisher needs the completed cover art *months* before the manuscript is turned in. On the other hand, I've heard that the artist Robert Whelan requires the finished manuscript a year before the deadline for the artwork. In a perfect world the artist would carefully read the final version of the text (and other books in the series) and then have long detailed conversations with the author. In this imperfect world, publishers have been known to use artwork they bought years earlier for a different book. --KG From dragaera at juima.org Thu May 15 13:07:25 2003 From: dragaera at juima.org (Sander) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 22:07:25 +0200 Subject: Michael Whelan (was: Re: Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon) In-Reply-To: <3A9B21EF.4CA596AD.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <3A9B21EF.4CA596AD.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <3EC3F37D.6060908@juima.org> Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > It varies a lot. In some cases (like with Robert Jordan), > the publisher needs the completed cover art *months* before > the manuscript is turned in. On the other hand, I've heard > that the artist Robert Whelan requires the finished > manuscript a year before the deadline for the artwork. Michael Whelan - http://www.michaelwhelan.com - and (all this iirc) although he prefers having the complete manuscript, he does often work >from just completes scenes / chapters (and definitely for the initial sketches / concepts), with a waiting period of 'just' a handful of months rathen than a year. The FAQ on his site states that he takes about a month per cover. Hmm, there used to lurk some interesting walkthroughs on his site on how he went from initial sketches for books to the final versions (in particular I remember him doing this for Tad Williams' A Sea of Silver Light), but I can't quickly refind it. Doncha just hate sites redesigning all the time? :) Still, definitely an interesting place to browse through if you have a spot of time; he's one of those fantasy artists producing covers almost everyone seems to like. Sander From pddb at demesne.com Thu May 15 13:12:35 2003 From: pddb at demesne.com (pddb at demesne.com) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 15:12:35 -0500 Subject: Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon In-Reply-To: ; from rblackstock@ersgroup.com on Thu, May 15, 2003 at 02:27:52PM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20030515151235.B27153@gw.dd-b.net> On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 02:27:52PM -0400, BLACKSTOCK, ROB wrote: > This brings up a good point: how does the process of developing cover > art for a new book come about? It depends on the publisher, the artist, and the author. My first three novels are being reprinted this fall, and the amount of input I got into the cover art was phenomenal compared to the amount I got when they were originally published (that latter amount being, none at all). I got to quibble about the period of the sword on the first cover, to ask that they put a cardinal (bird, not cleric) somewhere on each cover, and to suggest landscapes they might use. They changed their minds about the overall plan about four times, and the cover of the third book, which there wasn't time to show me, or maybe they wouldn't because I quibbled so much, is not accurate, though it's very beautiful and recognizable from the book. > Does the artist actually read the book? Is the artist only given a 2 > paragraph summary of the story and characters? Depends. Tom Canty read all of my novel TAM LIN before doing the cover, and I think he read all the Fairy Tale Line novels before doing the covers. But I don't know if he reads every book he illustrates. > For years I've wondered why book covers have so little to do with the > stories they illustrate... Especially in fantasy fiction. > > Does anyone know? The book cover is not an illustration. It's a marketing device. It's not even being marketed primarily to readers; it has to get past other buyers to even land on a bookstore shelf. There are a lot more considerations than whether it's accurate. So, at least, distraught authors are told by their editors. I see no reason to disbelieve them. -- Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet (pddb at demesne.com) "I will open my heart to a blank page and interview the witnesses." John M. Ford, "Shared World" From mam at theworld.com Thu May 15 14:48:58 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 17:48:58 -0400 Subject: Paths of the Dead query In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030515095345.034a1ce0@localhost> Message-ID: Steve, may I put this on Cracks and Shards for the possible disconfusion of others? -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website On Thu, 15 May 2003, Steven Brust wrote: #At 02:17 PM 5/15/2003 +0100, Fides wrote: #>> #> #>No it is just a confusion between Paths of the Dead (the most recently #>published of the Khaavren Romances) and Taltos and the Paths of the Dead #>(with the 'Taltos and the' is small letters and 'Paths of the Dead' in big #>letters) which is the book with Taltos and Morrolan going through the #>Paths. I believe it if more often refered to as Taltos although until I #>joined this group and PoTD came out I knew it as Paths of the Dead. They #>are different books but with confusingly similar names. # #The book was called _Taltos_ when I wrote it. It was still called _Taltos_ #when Ace published it. Pan bought rights for a British edition and, for #reasons best known to themselves, re-titled it _Taltos and the Paths of the #Dead_ and put a Hitler Youth on the cover. If they'd asked me, I'd have #suggested that this was a poor idea. # # From mam at theworld.com Thu May 15 15:05:20 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 18:05:20 -0400 Subject: Length of the Interregnum (Was Re: Spoilers- PotD and Issola) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030512111439.03302ac8@camail2.harvard.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 May 2003 charles_sumner at harvard.edu wrote: #How long did the interregnum last? Well, an interregnum is defined as: # #1) The interval of time between the end of a sovereign's reign and the #accession of a successor. #2) A period of temporary suspension of the usual functions of government or #control. #3) A gap in continuity. #(From: American Heritage Dictionary - http://www.yourdictionary.com/) # #So it could be viewed as lasting until Zerika is formally acknowledged as #Empress (definition 1), until she managed to get the empire back in working #order (definition 2 - with no currently known clearly defined date), or #until she returned with the Orb (definition 3). # #However, even if you consider the interregnum to end the moment Zerika #emerged with the Orb, that would make it only about 240 years before the #Jhereg books begin (and even less if you go by definition 1 or 2). This #would be roughly the equivalent of 35-40 years in the human frame of reference. # #Based on that, I think that the confusion in the books over the length of #the Interregnum is perfectly reasonable considering how recent those events #would be to the currently living Dragaerans and that what "the Interregnum" #means is probably changes depending on who is asked. I agree with that. At http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/how-long.html#Interregnum I list some of the variants. The one real outlier is Verra's "497 years" (Phoenix pb, p. 117). My summary: We know the Interregnum began Five Hundred Years After the events of The Phoenix Guards, and the Vlad novels are set "about a thousand years" after The Phoenix Guards, so Vlad's career is about 500 years after the start of the Interregnum. This is consistent with 240+ years of Interregnum followed by about 240 years from the end of the Interregnum to the time of Vlad's career. The 497-year period that Verra mentions so explicitly seems to be actually the time from the start of the Interregnum to Vlad's time. It looks as if Brust the author slipped. Of course, time flows differently in the Paths of the Dead, where Morrolan meets Baritt before Baritt has died in Dragaera [], so maybe there's a loophole for Verra there. And, of course, it would have been impolitic even for Vlad to correct a goddess's arithmetic when the number was not germane to the business at hand. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu May 15 15:07:16 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 15:07:16 -0700 Subject: Paths of the Dead query In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030515095345.034a1ce0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030515150705.01d99390@localhost> At 05:48 PM 5/15/2003 -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote: >Steve, may I put this on Cracks and Shards for the possible disconfusion >of others? Sure. From casey at trinityhartford.org Thu May 15 10:35:44 2003 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 13:35:44 -0400 Subject: Pan - UK editions In-Reply-To: <3EC3CAC8.1060502@kludgeco.com> Message-ID: Fides wrote > " * _Taltos and the Paths of the Dead (Pan 0-330-30792-4, Jul ?91, > ?4.99, 181pp, tp, cover by Fred Gambino) [*Vlad Taltos] Reprint (Ace > 1988 as Taltos) fantasy novel. Volume 4 in the ?Vlad Taltos? series. > [First U.K. edition]" from > http://www.locusmag.com/index/b73.html#A880.26 which leads me to think > that 'Taltos and the Paths of the Dead' was the UK title. Which would > explain, my being a UK person, why I have the version with that title. Also note that the Pan omnibus edition of _Jhereg_, _Yendi_, and _Teckla_ was called _Taltos the Assassin_. Not to be confused with _The Book of Taltos_, Ace's omnibus edition of _Taltos_ and _Phoenix_. Casey From Gaertk at aol.com Thu May 15 18:49:51 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 21:49:51 -0400 Subject: Michael Whelan (was: Re: Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon) Message-ID: <281EEA97.6E5F696C.00048EA6@aol.com> Sander writes: > Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >> It varies a lot. ?In some cases (like with Robert Jordan), >> the publisher needs the completed cover art *months* >> before the manuscript is turned in. ?On the other hand, >> I've heard that the artist Robert Whelan requires the >> finished manuscript a year before the deadline for the >> artwork. > > Michael Whelan - http://www.michaelwhelan.com - and (all I thought something didn't look right, and I even double checked the spelling: W H E L A N. Oh well, I think I'll claim that I was intentionally invoking Furr's Law. > he's one of those fantasy artists producing covers almost > everyone seems to like. Somehow I was never particularly impressed by his work. Its good, but nothing to get enthusiastic about. I do really like Stephen Hickman (several of the Vlad books) and Sam Rakeland (the Khaavren books) and also Phil Foglio's covers for the Starblaze editions of Asprin's Myth books. --KG From baralier at optusnet.com.au Thu May 15 18:48:57 2003 From: baralier at optusnet.com.au (Baralier) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 11:48:57 +1000 Subject: Paths of the Dead query References: <00c101c31adc$b5eb2640$18a231d2@valadan> <3EC39361.4040605@kludgeco.com> <1053015083.2151.6.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: <006e01c31b4d$a4b171b0$18a231d2@valadan> From: "Jag" > On Thu, 2003-05-15 at 09:17, Fides wrote: > > Baralier wrote: > > > Just wondering if anyone can shed some light on this: > > > > > > http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/books/n2/n12766.htm?authorid=4564 > > > > No it is just a confusion between Paths of the Dead (the most recently > > published of the Khaavren Romances) and Taltos and the Paths of the Dead > > (with the 'Taltos and the' is small letters and 'Paths of the Dead' in > > big letters) which is the book with Taltos and Morrolan going through > > the Paths. I believe it if more often refered to as Taltos although > > until I joined this group and PoTD came out I knew it as Paths of the > > Dead. They are different books but with confusingly similar names. > > Strange. I noticed that confusion on the webpage as well. However, I'd > never heard it called 'Taltos and the Paths of the Dead' until today. I > have the 1988 Ace paperback edition which just calls it 'Taltos'. For > reference, this is the copy I have, and the only one I've ever seen: > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0441182003/ref=lib_dp_TFCV/104 -6138601-6027105?v=glance&s=books&vi=reader#reader-link I have the same copy and had never heard the title 'Taltos and the Paths of the Dead' either. Baralier -- It's easier to ask forgiveness than to get permission. - W. Slovotsky http://members.optushome.com.au/velvetspyder Costumier & Reprobate From attjen at gwu.edu Fri May 16 07:23:17 2003 From: attjen at gwu.edu (Matt Jennings) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 10:23:17 -0400 Subject: Dragaeran Want Ads Message-ID: <3EC64BE9@webmailbackup> Short, short-lived gangster/assassin seeks small wise-cracking creature to share dead teckla, Jhereg, and lots of garlicy food. Must be able to put up with super-powerful pompous snobs and the undead. ---- Semi-sentient soul-eating blade seeks the teckla who did you-know what to the Jhereg Council to share long painful trip over the falls. ---- (I know you all can do better) ---- Matt From admc at worldpath.net Fri May 16 07:25:31 2003 From: admc at worldpath.net (Anthony & Denise Cloutier) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 10:25:31 -0400 Subject: Dragaeran Want Ads Message-ID: <001b01c31bb7$06b50e80$27dc85d0@oemcomputer> Wanted: Easterner assassin traveling with tame Jhereg. Will pay you what you deserve. Apply in person. Ask for Mario. From pereillo at optonline.net Fri May 16 07:33:20 2003 From: pereillo at optonline.net (Dr. Kathleen Pereillo) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 10:33:20 -0400 Subject: Dragaeran Want Ads In-Reply-To: <3EC64BE9@webmailbackup> Message-ID: <000801c31bb8$19822d80$a97ba8c0@3ComC> -----Original Message----- From: Matt Jennings [mailto:attjen at gwu.edu] Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 10:23 AM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Dragaeran Want Ads Short, short-lived gangster/assassin seeks small wise-cracking creature to share dead teckla, Jhereg, and lots of garlicy food. Must be able to put up with super-powerful pompous snobs and the undead. ---- Semi-sentient soul-eating blade seeks the teckla who did you-know what to the Jhereg Council to share long painful trip over the falls. ---- ------- Lost: Dzur Hero, Lord D_____, last seen in the vicinity of Dzur Mountain, preparing for a charge. ------- Found: Very large norska, black and white markings, upward-slanted eyes, pointed ears; found in the vicinity of Dzur Mountain. From warlord at dragon.com Fri May 16 07:52:32 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 10:52:32 -0400 Subject: Dragaeran Want Ads In-Reply-To: <001b01c31bb7$06b50e80$27dc85d0@oemcomputer> Message-ID: Wanted: War Warlord ----------------- For Sale: Nice Southside of a substantial city. Women With Attitude need not apply. ----------------- For Sale: Used Jenoine parts, as is. Call Dzur Mtn. ----------------- Tired? Lonely? Want a good time without the hassle of straping on weapons? Try Kiera's dating service. ----------------- For Sale: Selected non-published works of a famous author. Absolute discretion required. Go to Valabars and ask for a Brustworst on Wry. You will be contacted. ----------------- W > -----Original Message----- > From: Anthony & Denise Cloutier [mailto:admc at worldpath.net] > Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 10:26 > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE:Dragaeran Want Ads > > > Wanted: > Easterner assassin traveling with tame Jhereg. > Will pay you what you deserve. > Apply in person. > Ask for Mario. > From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Fri May 16 07:54:54 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 10:54:54 -0400 Subject: Dragaeran Want Ads In-Reply-To: <3EC64BE9@webmailbackup> References: <3EC64BE9@webmailbackup> Message-ID: <20030516145454.GB96450@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> > (I know you all can do better) Lost: Soul. Young, fresh, blonde, petite. Reward on return, punishment on failure. S. Lavode, c/o Dzur Mountain. -- Give me ambiguity or give me something else. -- Warlord, in message From dgf at dd-b.net Sat May 17 15:17:02 2003 From: dgf at dd-b.net (dgf at dd-b.net) Date: 17 May 2003 22:17:02 -0000 Subject: Dragaera subscriber list Message-ID: <20030517221702.2079.qmail@dd-b.net> acwest-dragaera (at) craigwest.net (email) "A. Craig West" adia (at) noc.uoa.gr (email) Alexandros Diamantidis adina (at) panix.com (email) admc (at) worldpath.net (email) "Anthony & Denise Cloutier" agrajag (at) dragaera.net (email) Jag aheyman (at) rcn.com (email) "Adam Heyman" AkodoBob (at) sbcglobal.net (email) akomins (at) midway.uchicago.edu (email) Arin Komins alexx (at) shell.theworld.com (email) Alexx S Kay Aliera9916 (at) aol.com (email) Aliera9916 (at) aol.com ambyrglow (at) softhome.net (email) ambyrglow (at) softhome.net AmericnDog (at) aol.com (email) AmericnDog (at) aol.com amitskaw (at) hotmail.com (email) "James Somebody" annoying_dude (at) yahoo.com (digest) Matt Smit anreed (at) wm.edu (email) anreed (at) wm.edu antijubilant (at) hotmail.com (email) "_" attjen (at) gwu.edu (digest) Matt Jennings awick (at) cs.utah.edu (email) Adam Wick azarule (at) hotmail.com (email) "David Gunderson" a_englehart (at) cox.net (email) "Anne Englehart" badgod (at) sonic.net (digest) ballistica (at) cox.net (email) "Donna" baralier (at) optusnet.com.au (email) Baralier bearnw (at) ix.netcom.com (digest) bertowud (at) cox.net (email) "Robert Wood" bjf (at) wavefront.com (email) Beth Friedman BoneTone22 (at) aol.com (email) BoneTone22 (at) aol.com books (at) bofh.com (email) books (at) bofh.com Brandonmap (at) aol.com (email) brian.vanskyock (at) zimmer.com (email) "Brian Vanskyock" briandmichelle (at) yahoo.com (email) Brian and Michelle Baskett BTray74314 (at) aol.com (email) BTray74314 (at) aol.com calianng_graves (at) yahoo.com (email) Caliann the Elf carl (at) odeon.net (email) "Carl Chada" carla.hunt.b (at) oncogene.com (email) "Carla Hunt" casey (at) trinityhartford.org (email) "Casey Rousseau" catman12 (at) bigpond.com (email) catman charles_sumner (at) harvard.edu (email) charles_sumner (at) harvard.edu chris.mclaren (at) ieee.org (email) "Chris McLaren" Chrisf.Olson (at) sun.com (email) Chris Olson - SunPS chrislee (at) neo.rr.com (email) "chris cunningham" christian.ericsson (at) publicistbyran.se (email) Christian Ericsson Christopher_M_Kane (at) brown.edu (email) corsair (at) concentric.net (email) "Kelly Rhodes" corwin (at) mpls.cx (email) (Corwin Brust) curtis.humes (at) verizon.net (email) "Gnosis" dalvenjah (at) dal.net (email) Dalvenjah FoxFire dan-tain_ishanti (at) attbi.com (email) "Brad Crawford" dar (at) horusinc.com (email) "David Rodemaker" davids (at) kithrup.com (email) David Silberstein dd-b (at) dd-b.net (digest) (David Dyer-Bennet) dd-b (at) dd-b.net (email) (David Dyer-Bennet) den (at) monger.net (email) derleth (at) mit.edu (email) Jason Derleth dgf (at) dd-b.net (post) djshathe (at) hotmail.com (email) "Dejin Shathe" don (at) easterlys.com (email) "Don Easterly" dr.elmo (at) whiterose.org (email) "Dr. Elmo" dragaera (at) juima.org (email) Sander dreadstar (at) bigpond.com (email) dreadstar dusty (at) sayersnet.com (email) J A Dusty Sayers egyptianbloom (at) yahoo.com (email) Karin Bassett ehahn (at) isochronism.com (email) Edward Hahn ejpeterson (at) attbi.com (email) electrictwilight (at) hotmail.com (email) "H T" eshivak (at) netzero.net (email) "Eric Shivak" everbard (at) ix.netcom.com (email) "Michael M Jones" ez031929 (at) yahoo.com (email) Byron Hu faakinridiculous (at) hotmail.com (email) "rogue squadron" feaelin (at) kemenel.org (email) "Davis, Iain E." feetalsjeez (at) yahoo.com (email) Tim Owen fides (at) kludgeco.com (email) Faith Lawrence fnord (at) goatheckler.com (email) "Matthew Fitzpatrick" foodgod (at) pobox.com (email) Teddywolf frank (at) exit.com (email) Frank Mayhar furryjawa (at) yahoo.com (email) David Lish gaertk (at) aol.com (email) Gaertk (at) aol.com gaku169 (at) hotmail.com (digest) "Denis Berthelsen" genji_77 (at) hotmail.com (email) "Mike Smith" GibelMaria (at) aol.com (email) GibelMaria (at) aol.com goldfarb (at) ocf.berkeley.edu (email) (David Goldfarb) gomi (at) speakeasy.net (email) Gomi no Sensei graitech (at) cogeco.ca (email) graitech (at) cogeco.ca grapawy (at) yahoo.com (email) Gregory Rapawy grzm (at) grzm.pp.se (email) Gunnar Blomberg haden (at) train.missouri.org (email) Curtis Haden haerandir (at) hotmail.com (email) "Jesse Thomas" harvester64 (at) yahoo.com (email) Harvester hhertzof (at) panix.com (email) Hilary Hertzoff holden (at) oddjob.uchicago.edu (digest) Bradford Holden hologram (at) algonet.se (email) Nicklas Andersson holyconelia (at) hotmail.com (email) "william wheeler" houm002 (at) computron.net (email) "M. 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Nonymous" zaphod (at) charter.net (email) "Greg Schwartz" zarkon (at) illrepute.org (email) John Klein zizban (at) adelphia.net (email) Chris Turkel From mam at theworld.com Sun May 18 11:49:44 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 14:49:44 -0400 Subject: What's New in Cracks and Shards Message-ID: What's New in Cracks and Shards May 2003: I'm starting to implement Cascading Style Sheets, in hopes it'll make this hobby a little easier for me, make the site look more uniform (bit by bit), and give me practice for one part of my work. Unfortunately, even some of the simple features of CSS are not supported by some of the major browsers, but of course. (I use primarily MS Internet Explorer, but I also test with Netscape and Mozilla. At the moment Netscape seems to be the worst in this regard.) I've cleaned up the internal "name" anchors. For those of you who know HTML, that means I've removed spaces and other characters likely to cause problems, so now all the "names" begin with a letter and contain only letters, digits, hyphens, and underscores. For the rest of you, some site-internal links that may have not functioned for you in the past should be working now. And in checking my work I've discovered that this site now contains exactly seventeen HTML files, which tempts me to stop here. That would be cute, and it might be smart for other reasons, but I ain't gonna do it.... I might, however, try to arrange any changes so as to keep the mystic number. ("Boss, that would really be stupid!" * "Give me three reasons." "First, you've always tried to keep the size of your files under 32k to keep download time reasonable, and you'd have to give that up. Second, you'd be adding an unnecessary constraint to the arrangement of your site." "That's two. You used to be able to count." "Dead mouse on your pillow. Reason number three is, you were gonna shower and go to bed a friggin' hour ago!" "I yield to the force of your argument.") Table of Contents for Paths of the Dead. From POTD: Some Eastern peoples and languages, and Morrolan's name. These all constituted one complex set of cross-referenced entries in three files and took a couple of hours to set up to my satisfaction. ("Well, boss, how much of that are you going to blame on the material and how much on your own fussiness?" "Hmph. Call it 'perfectionism' and I might share this doughnut with you." "Your perfectionism, then." "Here you go." [munch] "And as MoCo said, 'Vi ne devas cxiam esti tia goddam perfectionist!'") Spellbreaker, cracks, Brusts, and memories The rocks in Sethra's fireplace. April 2003: Mark Plattner has supplied several more Grateful Dead references: Brokedown Palace, Fenario, Dobperg?s ?rd?g (Rhythm Devils), Dark Star, Master Hunter, and allusions to the song "Terrapin Station". I'm sure any Deadhead would know some of these in his sleep. I'm not a Deadhead, and so thanks again to Mark P. and all the other 'Heads who've contributed here. March 2003: Koldus Sirbolt and S?rgacukorf?rfi on the map of Fenario in BP. Fixed a bug in my "Feedback" links that has been there for years, and nobody ever told me! Of course, if they tried to tell me through the Feedback links... Vlad as Joe Friday from Dragnet. A small clue to the order of the days of the week. Easterners are descended from Terrans. A lighter grey in the background of the "cracks" pages, which should make them easier to read. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From holyconelia at hotmail.com Sun May 18 12:19:55 2003 From: holyconelia at hotmail.com (william wheeler) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 19:19:55 +0000 Subject: it is time to talk cook book, Message-ID: OK It is time to talk cook book,I am reading PoTD( great book) and each time I read a cook about dragaera and they have food in them that each time I read about i have to go cook it! and i do not have the recipes GGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR so I have to make do with Raspberry-Filled Pastry Strips Apple Charlotte with Apricot Sauce Kulich Paskha Medianyky Zapechonaya Treska pelmeni BAKLAZHANNAYA IKRA FORSHMAK but that russian not food of dragaera GGGGGGGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR ***I WANT A dragaera cook book **************8 wheeler _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From mam at theworld.com Sun May 18 12:37:37 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 15:37:37 -0400 Subject: it is time to talk cook book, In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 18 May 2003, william wheeler wrote: #OK #It is time to talk cook book,I am reading PoTD( great book) #and each time I read a cook about dragaera and they have food in them that #each time I read about i have to go cook it! and i do not have the recipes #GGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR [...] #***I WANT A dragaera cook book **************8 Good! Are you volunteering to be the editor? -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun May 18 12:40:42 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 12:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: House of Brahms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So I went to see the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra last night, looked enough like a starving student to be given a free ticket, looked at the program, and saw that as a young man Brahms had a striking noble's point: Not a great image of the photo: http://www.medscape.com/content/2000/00/40/59/405955/art-ch1181.02.marg.fig1.jpg A bit older, painted from the photo?: http://www.fuguemasters.com/brahmsyoung.jpg etc: http://web02.hnh.com/composerpaintings/testcomposer.asp?composername=Brahms - Philip From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun May 18 12:45:25 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 12:45:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: it is time to talk cook book, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 18 May 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Sun, 18 May 2003, william wheeler wrote: > > #OK > #It is time to talk cook book,I am reading PoTD( great book) > #and each time I read a cook about dragaera and they have food in them that > #each time I read about i have to go cook it! and i do not have the recipes > #GGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR > > [...] > > #***I WANT A dragaera cook book **************8 > > Good! Are you volunteering to be the editor? Not to be snarky, but - oh, never mind. Also the book would be like one of those old French tomes where you're told to take a medium-size turtle, some goose fat, ... From holyconelia at hotmail.com Sun May 18 13:01:33 2003 From: holyconelia at hotmail.com (william wheeler) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 20:01:33 +0000 Subject: it is time to talk cook book, Message-ID: >From: Mark A Mandel >To: wuffa at novaroma.org >CC: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: it is time to talk cook book, >>On Sun, 18 May 2003, william wheeler wrote: > >#OK >#It is time to talk cook book,I am reading PoTD( great book) >#and each time I read a cook about dragaera and they have food in them that >#each time I read about i have to go cook it! and i do not have the recipes >#GGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR > > [...] > >#***I WANT A dragaera cook book **************8 > >Good! Are you volunteering to be the editor? > >-- Mark A. Mandel > http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ > a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website > > Yes I would happy to be the Editor ,as long as #1 it is ok with S.Z.Brust #2 I get help from you all. #3 if it is put to pruss i get my costs back, ( i do cook a lot and have lots of people to test etc..but am low income) ( cool this will be my 8th reread but thisx time i take notes) wheeler _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Mon May 19 01:00:21 2003 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 01:00:21 -0700 Subject: [OT} Mark's even cooler than I thought he was! Message-ID: <200305190100.AA230687084@amish2000.com> And I thought that he was pretty darn cool. See, I'm connected to Mark via five degrees of separation! (... Oh, all right; you can do it with one, too. "We are both fans of Steve Brust and his writingses.") 1) My uncle Steve once tended bar at a country club in Hawai'i. 2) He poured (several very large) shots of whiskey for then-Veep Spiro T. Agnew during a golf tournament at said country club. (After the fourth shot, Uncle Steve says, Agnew hit a ball directly into the crowd, mildly bruising someone. Woo.) 3) Ted Agnew was half of the Conservative Bill & Ted, the other half of which was Bill "William" Safire, esquire. 4) William Safire writes a column hight "On Language" for the _New York Times_. 5. Dr. Mark A. Mandel is cited in Safire's book _Let A Simile Be Your Umbrella_, page 89 hardback edition. He wrote a letter informing dear Mr. Safire of another use of the term "show- stopper". YAY MARK! ? MJ, assuming she has the _correct_ Dr. Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Mon May 19 13:22:10 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 16:22:10 -0400 Subject: [OT} Mark's even cooler than I thought he was! In-Reply-To: <200305190100.AA230687084@amish2000.com> Message-ID: Simultaneous "Hee hee" and "My dinkum heavens!", which shows I'm so startled I'm getting my interjections mixed up. Yes, that's almost certainly me. I'm not sure I remember it... Yes, it comes back now. That would be the use in the software industry (Dragon Systems, Inc., 1990-2001, R.I.P. I was the company linguist) for a bug that must be fixed before the product can go out the door. Yes, that's me all right. I'd plum forgotten. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel On Mon, 19 May 2003, M J wrote: # #And I thought that he was pretty darn cool. # #See, I'm connected to Mark via five degrees of separation! (... #Oh, all right; you can do it with one, too. "We are both fans of #Steve Brust and his writingses.") # #1) My uncle Steve once tended bar at a country club in Hawai'i. #2) He poured (several very large) shots of whiskey for then-Veep #Spiro T. Agnew during a golf tournament at said country club. #(After the fourth shot, Uncle Steve says, Agnew hit a ball directly #into the crowd, mildly bruising someone. Woo.) #3) Ted Agnew was half of the Conservative Bill & Ted, the other #half of which was Bill "William" Safire, esquire. #4) William Safire writes a column hight "On Language" for the _New #York Times_. #5. Dr. Mark A. Mandel is cited in Safire's book _Let A Simile Be #Your Umbrella_, page 89 hardback edition. He wrote a letter #informing dear Mr. Safire of another use of the term "show- #stopper". # #YAY MARK! # #? #MJ, #assuming she has the _correct_ Dr. Mark A. Mandel # # # From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Mon May 19 16:20:59 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 19:20:59 -0400 Subject: [OT} Mark's even cooler than I thought he was! In-Reply-To: References: <200305190100.AA230687084@amish2000.com> Message-ID: <20030519232059.GA8953@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Hmm...given that my Uncle Hank knew Agnew, that would put Mark and I at five steps as well. Then again, we probably know a dozen or so folks at one step remove thru the filk circles. I just don't know who they are... From agrajag at dragaera.net Mon May 19 21:59:28 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 20 May 2003 00:59:28 -0400 Subject: [OT} Mark's even cooler than I thought he was! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1053406768.2155.9.camel@loiosh> On Mon, 2003-05-19 at 16:22, Mark A Mandel wrote: > Simultaneous "Hee hee" and "My dinkum heavens!", which shows I'm so > startled I'm getting my interjections mixed up. Yes, that's almost > certainly me. I'm not sure I remember it... Yes, it comes back now. That > would be the use in the software industry (Dragon Systems, Inc., > 1990-2001, R.I.P. I was the company linguist) for a bug that must be > fixed before the product can go out the door. Is that the same Dragon Systems that did the voice recognition software? I remember them.. never got a chance (never had the money) to actually try the software, but I remember hearing from several sources that it was the best around. From mam at theworld.com Tue May 20 06:28:48 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 09:28:48 -0400 Subject: [OT} Mark's even cooler than I thought he was! In-Reply-To: <1053406768.2155.9.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: On 20 May 2003, Jag wrote: #Is that the same Dragon Systems that did the voice recognition #software? Indeed it was. I remember them.. never got a chance (never had the money) to #actually try the software, but I remember hearing from several sources #that it was the best around. Indeed it was. -- Mark A. Mandel Chief Linguist, Dragon Systems, Inc., 1990-2001 From zizban at adelphia.net Tue May 20 08:17:00 2003 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 11:17:00 -0400 Subject: [OT} Mark's even cooler than I thought he was! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1A566752-8AD6-11D7-89D2-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> On Tuesday, May 20, 2003, at 09:28 AM, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On 20 May 2003, Jag wrote: > > #Is that the same Dragon Systems that did the voice recognition > #software? > > Indeed it was. > > I remember them.. never got a chance (never had the money) to > #actually try the software, but I remember hearing from several sources > #that it was the best around. > > Indeed it was. > > -- Mark A. Mandel > Chief Linguist, Dragon Systems, Inc., 1990-2001 They were going to make a Mac port but that didn't happen, either. Too bad. --- "Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself (I am large, I contain multitudes)."--Walt Whitman From harvester64 at yahoo.com Tue May 20 11:17:07 2003 From: harvester64 at yahoo.com (Harvester) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 11:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: it is time to talk cook book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030520181707.68136.qmail@web40901.mail.yahoo.com> --- william wheeler wrote: >>>>>[ ***I WANT A dragaera cook book **************8 ]<<<<< I hear ya brother..... reding the descriptions of the food that Brust's characters are eating make my mouth water. And since we're on the topic of Dragaeran food..... Mr. Brust, if there is a place on earth that is even *remotely* like Valabar's, please, PLEASE let us know where it is. I'm begging. Really -- I'm on my knees begging. (It's shameful, true -- but I love good food.) - Donald Seagraves ===== "On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." -- Charles Babbage __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue May 20 13:24:29 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:24:29 -0700 Subject: it is time to talk cook book In-Reply-To: <20030520181707.68136.qmail@web40901.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030520132335.025e1b50@localhost> At 11:17 AM 5/20/2003 -0700, Harvester wrote: >--- william wheeler wrote: > >>>>>[ ***I WANT A dragaera cook book **************8 ]<<<<< > >I hear ya brother..... reding the descriptions of the food that >Brust's characters are eating make my mouth water. > >And since we're on the topic of Dragaeran food..... Mr. Brust, if >there is a place on earth that is even *remotely* like Valabar's, >please, PLEASE let us know where it is. I'm begging. Really -- I'm on >my knees begging. (It's shameful, true -- but I love good food.) Alas, I don't know of one since The Bakery in Chicago closed. Of course, any street corner in Budapest will produce places with some similarities. From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Tue May 20 20:56:21 2003 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 22:56:21 -0500 Subject: it is time to talk cook book References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030520132335.025e1b50@localhost> Message-ID: <3ECAF8E5.6000506@attbi.com> Huh? But, I've *been* to the Bakery, and nobody ever got assassinated there! Mia From books at bofh.com Tue May 20 23:07:17 2003 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 23:07:17 -0700 Subject: it is time to talk cook book In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030520132335.025e1b50@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030520132335.025e1b50@localhost> Message-ID: <20030521060717.GA2134@bofh.com> > >And since we're on the topic of Dragaeran food..... Mr. Brust, if > >there is a place on earth that is even *remotely* like Valabar's, > >please, PLEASE let us know where it is. I'm begging. Really -- I'm on > >my knees begging. (It's shameful, true -- but I love good food.) There is a place here in Phoenix that I think of every time I think of Valabar's. It doesn't have the transparent waiters, and they serve Mexican, but it's a family business, the informal drink ordering and waiting just seems right. If you ever get a chance, Los Dos Molinos (2 locations, one on Central looks better). Be warned, it is spicy. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed May 21 09:36:10 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 09:36:10 -0700 Subject: it is time to talk cook book In-Reply-To: <3ECAF8E5.6000506@attbi.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030520132335.025e1b50@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030521093543.025cc0a0@localhost> At 10:56 PM 5/20/2003 -0500, Mia McDavid wrote: >Huh? > >But, I've *been* to the Bakery, and nobody ever got assassinated there! Nobody ever got assassinated at Valabar's, either. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed May 21 09:52:04 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 09:52:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: it is time to talk cook book In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030521093543.025cc0a0@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030520132335.025e1b50@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20030521093543.025cc0a0@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 May 2003, Steven Brust wrote: > At 10:56 PM 5/20/2003 -0500, Mia McDavid wrote: > >Huh? > > > >But, I've *been* to the Bakery, and nobody ever got assassinated there! > > Nobody ever got assassinated at Valabar's, either. > And in fact plenty of people got assassinated at the Bakery even if it wasn't widely advertised. As far as transformative meals in Chicago go, I'd have to vote for Arun's. They bring out about a dozen progressively spicier courses - it's like the proverbial frog being slowly boiled in soup but not noticing. I still had that dizzy food high the next afternoon. Unfortunately one practically needs to do some work to afford a meal there. From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Wed May 21 09:57:59 2003 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 09:57:59 -0700 Subject: it is time to talk cook book Message-ID: >From: Steven Brust >To: Mia McDavid , "dragaera at dragaera.info" > >> >Nobody ever got assassinated at Valabar's, either. > The Big question is, of course, will they in the future? James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed May 21 10:01:38 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 10:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: it is time to talk cook book Message-ID: <200305211701.h4LH1SI17174@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > >Nobody ever got assassinated at Valabar's, either. > > > The Big question is, of course, will they in the future? Nah. It's probably one of the unwritten Jhereg rules: " Don't hit 'em at home, don't hit 'em while the wife and kids are around, and don't you dare touch 'em if he's at Valabar's...." I could see it. :) Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Wed May 21 11:40:26 2003 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 13:40:26 -0500 Subject: it is time to talk cook book References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030520132335.025e1b50@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20030521093543.025cc0a0@localhost> Message-ID: <3ECBC81A.6080400@attbi.com> My mistake; I was conflating Valabar's with Taltos', undoubtedly because both are run by Easterners. Thanks for setting me straight. Mia From grapawy at yahoo.com Wed May 21 12:30:17 2003 From: grapawy at yahoo.com (Greg Rapawy) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 12:30:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: it is time to talk cook book In-Reply-To: <3ECBC81A.6080400@attbi.com> Message-ID: <20030521193017.96494.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mia McDavid wrote: > My mistake; I was conflating Valabar's with Taltos', Vlad will be flattered! > undoubtedly because both are run by Easterners. Vlad will be, well, less flattered. I like the idea of an informal rule against assassinations in Valabar's -- I know Vlad mentioned at some point in text that on several occasions of violence against Easterners, the Dragaerans responsible (I don't believe they were identified specifically as the Jhereg) spared Valabar's for similar reasons. -- Greg From WyrmOuroboros at comcast.net Wed May 21 23:46:26 2003 From: WyrmOuroboros at comcast.net (Thomas FURNITURE ARTIST) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 02:46:26 -0400 Subject: Assassinations at Valabar's Message-ID: <40944a640974ad.40974ad40944a6@icomcast.net> From: Steven Brust > At 10:56 PM 5/20/2003 -0500, Mia McDavid wrote: > >But, I've *been* to the Bakery, and nobody ever got assassinated > >there! > Nobody ever got assassinated at Valabar's, either. Of course not. You think it's an unwritten rule with only the Empire, 'Whatever you do to the Easterners, don't mess with Valabar's'??? Every House has it, even the 'non-House' Jhereg. It should be carven in stone on the first step up to the Empress' throne: 'Don't Mess With Valabar's.' It should be engraved in tiny sigils on the obverse side of every orb: 'Don't Mess With Valabar's.' For the Jhereg, it'd be like deliberately assassinating some two-bit hood inside a Dragonlord's home; do it and be *screwed*. Of course you don't assassinate anyone at Valabar's -- it's -that-good-. Which means that Vlad might be a rules-breaker once more, the first guy whom the Jhereg attempt to assassinate inside Valabar's.... -- Thomas Crain From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Thu May 22 02:02:31 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 09:02:31 +0000 Subject: Assassinations at Valabar's Message-ID: >From: Thomas FURNITURE ARTIST > >Which means that Vlad might be a rules-breaker once more, the first guy >whom the Jhereg attempt to assassinate inside Valabar's.... > > >-- >Thomas Crain > Yesterday I finished reading Issola and there was something that I didn't manage to understand then, but that maybe now takes sense: Issola finishes with Vlad in front of Valabar's saying "there were no assassins waiting to kill me, at least yet". I remember that in Yendi one of the clues which makes Vlad start to wonder if its opponent (I don't remeber its name) actually doesn't try to kill him is that in the last kill attempt the assassins didn't try to kill him inside the restaurant but in the door, where he can move freely. Later he argues, with kraagar or Cawti (I read Yendi several years ago, sorry), trhat it is stupid and no competent assassin would do like this. So, why Vlad thinks that the Jheregh's assassins, who there's no doubt that wants him dead, will not strike him inside but that they will wait him outside? If these non-written rule about Valabar's safety does exists, Vlad thought and conduct will take sense in two ways: (i) they will wait him to respect the rule and (ii) Vlad choices Valabar's because, althought he doesn't worry now about the Jhereg, he wants the best meal: if in the middle of it appears an army of assassins he won't enjoy it, doesn't he? Iv?n. _________________________________________________________________ Melod?as, logos y mil servicios para tu tel?fono en MSN M?viles. http://www.msn.es/MSNMovil/ From GibelMaria at aol.com Thu May 22 03:12:22 2003 From: GibelMaria at aol.com (GibelMaria at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 06:12:22 EDT Subject: Spoiler Alert: Assassinations at Valabar's Message-ID: <5f.39eadb50.2bfdfc86@aol.com> If you have not read Issola.. dont read the bellow message as it contains spoilers. * * * * * * * * * * * * * Well.. if I remember correctly, the reason Vlad doesn't think there are any assasin waiting for him "yet" is because he has the item which keeps him virtually undetectable to magics. So they can't track him that way, they woudlnt be ready to kill him right then and there if he's just been spotted... As to why he chose to go to Valabars, he now has a Great Weapon... He's like... "screw it, I got on of the most powerful, and deadly weapons EVER...who's gonna mess with me?" From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Thu May 22 03:54:38 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 10:54:38 +0000 Subject: Spoiler Alert: Assassinations at Valabar's Message-ID: Sorry for my first message, I didn't remember to include the "Spoiler" note. In fact, I didn't noticed its purposes: I'm not englishpeaker and I didn't know its meaning yet. I beg your pardon, Iv?n. >From: GibelMaria at aol.com >To: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com, dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Spoiler Alert: Assassinations at Valabar's >Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 06:12:22 EDT > >If you have not read Issola.. dont read the bellow message as it contains >spoilers. >* >* >* >* >* >* >* >* >* >* >* >* >* > >Well.. if I remember correctly, the reason Vlad doesn't think there are any >assasin waiting for him "yet" is because he has the item which keeps him >virtually undetectable to magics. So they can't track him that way, they >woudlnt be >ready to kill him right then and there if he's just been spotted... > >As to why he chose to go to Valabars, he now has a Great Weapon... He's >like... "screw it, I got on of the most powerful, and deadly weapons >EVER...who's >gonna mess with me?" _________________________________________________________________ Accede al romance onine. Descubre gente que busca a otra gente en MSN Amor & Amistad. http://match.msn.es/ From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Thu May 22 05:35:06 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 08:35:06 -0400 Subject: Assassinations at Valabar's Message-ID: <20030522123506.GB14861@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> What do you mean, no assignations at Valabars? Of *course* there are assignations at Valabars. Can you think of a better place to begin an assignation than over a fine meal? Heck, I'll bet even Taco Bell has been used for assignations. Yeesh. From zizban at adelphia.net Thu May 22 05:49:29 2003 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 08:49:29 -0400 Subject: Assassinations at Valabar's In-Reply-To: <20030522123506.GB14861@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: On Thursday, May 22, 2003, at 08:35 AM, Steve Simmons wrote: > What do you mean, no assignations at Valabars? Of *course* there are > assignations at Valabars. Can you think of a better place to begin an > assignation than over a fine meal? Heck, I'll bet even Taco Bell has > been used for assignations. > > Yeesh. I'm sure Taco Bell but not intentionally :-) ------ "...Wouldn't it be worse if life were fair, and everything bad that happens to us happens because we deserve it?" -Marcus Cole, Babylon 5. From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Thu May 22 07:28:02 2003 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 07:28:02 -0700 Subject: Assassinations at Valabar's Message-ID: >From: Iv?n Rebollo >>Which means that Vlad might be a rules-breaker once more, the first guy >>whom the Jhereg attempt to assassinate inside Valabar's.... >> There's a fun thought- New Vlad story? >>Thomas Crain >> > >Yesterday I finished reading Issola and there was something that I didn't >manage to understand then, but that maybe now takes sense: Issola finishes >with Vlad in front of Valabar's saying "there were no assassins waiting to >kill me, at least yet". > >I remember that in Yendi one of the clues which makes Vlad start to wonder >if its opponent (I don't remeber its name) actually doesn't try to kill him >is that in the last kill attempt the assassins didn't try to kill him >inside the restaurant but in the door, where he can move freely. Later he >argues, with kraagar or Cawti (I read Yendi several years ago, sorry), >trhat it is stupid and no competent assassin would do like this. So, why >Vlad thinks that the Jheregh's assassins, who there's no doubt that wants >him dead, will not strike him inside but that they will wait him outside? I believe that he was not actually at Valabar's in Yendi, and the Valabar Exclusion Rule applies only to Valabars- Vlad thinks restaurants are great places to "work". >If these non-written rule about Valabar's safety does exists, Vlad thought >and conduct will take sense in two ways: (i) they will wait him to respect >the rule and (ii) Vlad choices Valabar's because, althought he doesn't >worry now about the Jhereg, he wants the best meal: if in the middle of it >appears an army of assassins he won't enjoy it, doesn't he? > >Iv?n. > It's a reflex James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN ________________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From agrajag at dragaera.net Thu May 22 12:37:28 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 22 May 2003 15:37:28 -0400 Subject: Assassinations at Valabar's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1053632123.2535.0.camel@loiosh> On Thu, 2003-05-22 at 10:28, James Griffin wrote: > > >From: Ivn Rebollo > >>Which means that Vlad might be a rules-breaker once more, the first guy > >>whom the Jhereg attempt to assassinate inside Valabar's.... > >> > > There's a fun thought- New Vlad story? SKZB has said that he's under contract to write two more Vlad novels. But I doubt we'll hear about them until the rest of the Viscount books come out. Although SKZB never said when the new books will take place, I'm hoping they take place right after _Issola_. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu May 22 12:52:45 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 12:52:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Assassinations at Valabar's Message-ID: <200305221952.h4MJqaI16924@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > SKZB has said that he's under contract to write two more Vlad novels. > But I doubt we'll hear about them until the rest of the Viscount books > come out. Although SKZB never said when the new books will take place, > I'm hoping they take place right after _Issola_. I can't remember where, but Steve has said that he's got an idea for the next Vlad novel, and I believe he said something about after the Viscount books. Although, it sounds like he's got some other projects he's thinking about or working on right now, so who knows. And I agree, I'd love to see a post-Issola novel, but I won't be picky. Any Vlad story is a good one! Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From jalipaz at stanford.edu Thu May 22 12:53:45 2003 From: jalipaz at stanford.edu (Julie Alipaz) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 12:53:45 -0700 Subject: Assassinations at Valabar's In-Reply-To: <1053632123.2535.0.camel@loiosh> References: <1053632123.2535.0.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: > > >SKZB has said that he's under contract to write two more Vlad novels. >But I doubt we'll hear about them until the rest of the Viscount books >come out. Although SKZB never said when the new books will take place, >I'm hoping they take place right after _Issola_. that does not mean that he is going to write ONLY two more Vlad books does it? -- Department of Biological Sciences Palumbi Lab Hopkins Marine Station of Stanford University Blinks Oceanview Blvd Pacific Grove, Ca 93950 jalipaz at stanford.edu phone: 831-655-6210 Often statistics are used as drunken men use lampposts... for support rather than illumination. Albert Einstein From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu May 22 13:02:56 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 13:02:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Assassinations at Valabar's Message-ID: <200305222002.h4MK2kI19011@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > that does not mean that he is going to write ONLY two more Vlad books does it? No, just that he is under contract for two more. Besides, he knows he'd have a mob at the door if he stopped at two.... Chris "The morning cup of coffee has an exhilaration about it which the cheering influence of the afternoon or evening cup of tea cannot be expected to reproduce." ~ Oliver Wedell Holmes, Sr. - "Over the Teacups" (1891) From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu May 22 14:03:56 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 14:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Assassinations at Valabar's In-Reply-To: <200305222002.h4MK2kI19011@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200305222002.h4MK2kI19011@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 May 2003, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > that does not mean that he is going to write ONLY two more Vlad books > > does it? > > No, just that he is under contract for two more. > > Besides, he knows he'd have a mob at the door if he stopped > at two.... Having watched the final episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and knowing that it's really final (given various central characters being killed off; a faltering network and a slowly declining audience; and the main actor hastening to other projects), I'm glad there's no such thing as a last book (in the author's lifetime). I was counting on 17 Vlad novels, but even if Vlad dies or becomes a god after #10, there's always the past to mine (a demon takes over Blackwand, the fight for the Necromancer's soul, ...) From grapawy at yahoo.com Thu May 22 14:28:02 2003 From: grapawy at yahoo.com (Greg Rapawy) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 14:28:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Assassinations at Valabar's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030522212802.35403.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Philip Hart wrote: [...] > I'm glad there's no such thing as a last book (in the > author's lifetime). I was counting on 17 Vlad novels, but > even if Vlad dies or becomes a god after #10, there's always > the past to mine (a demon takes over Blackwand, the fight for > the Necromancer's soul, ...) You know, this made me think of a question for the author, which he may or may not want to answer: Mr. Brust, you've said in the past that you felt it was important in _Teckla_ and subsequent books to move Vlad away >from being an assassin because you felt that the first two Vlad books came too close to glorifying, or endorsing, or failing to condemn, his conduct. _Taltos_ and _Dragon_, written after Teckla, tell stories from earlier in Vlad's career, when he was still an assassin. When you wrote those books, having dealt with the issues in _Teckla_ that you had, did you then feel a continuing obligation to infuse them with some degree of moral judgment about what Vlad was doing? Or did you feel that the presence of the chronologically-later, earlier-published _Teckla_ (and, in the case of _Dragon_, the other intervening books as well) was enough? Did you think about it consciously, or did you feel that the conclusions you had drawn about the responsibilities of an author naturally informed your later work? I'm asking because I think the creative process is interesting, and the relationship of art to morality is interesting, and both together are really interesting. If I've misunderstood your earlier comments on the subject, or if I've drawn unwarranted inferences, I of course apologize. -- Greg From Gaertk at aol.com Thu May 22 14:46:54 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 17:46:54 -0400 Subject: Assassinations at Valabar's Message-ID: <6EA6FC89.2E10063F.00048EA6@aol.com> Jag writes: > SKZB has said that he's under contract to write two more > Vlad novels. But I doubt we'll hear about them until the > rest of the Viscount books come out. ?Although SKZB never > said when the new books will take place, I'm hoping they > take place right after _Issola_. Personally, I think _Issola_ is a good place to pause for a bit and fill in some of the holes in Vlad's life. Sure, I'd love to see Vlad and in action, but there isn't any urgency; the only plot threads still loose are some family issues. A while ago in his weblog, Brust mentioned something about a murder mystery he's working on. I'd love to hear more details on that too... --KG From zizban at adelphia.net Thu May 22 14:48:54 2003 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 17:48:54 -0400 Subject: Assassinations at Valabar's In-Reply-To: <6EA6FC89.2E10063F.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <2F137CB5-8C9F-11D7-B33A-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> On Thursday, May 22, 2003, at 05:46 PM, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > Jag writes: > >> SKZB has said that he's under contract to write two more >> Vlad novels. But I doubt we'll hear about them until the >> rest of the Viscount books come out. ?Although SKZB never >> said when the new books will take place, I'm hoping they >> take place right after _Issola_. > > Personally, I think _Issola_ is a good place to pause for a > bit and fill in some of the holes in Vlad's life. Sure, I'd > love to see Vlad and in action, but there isn't any > urgency; the only plot threads still loose are some family > issues. > > A while ago in his weblog, Brust mentioned something about a > murder mystery he's working on. I'd love to hear more > details on that too... > > > --KG I would like to see a book about Vlad in the East. I need a break from all this Dragaera Empire stuff for a bit. ---- "Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself (I am large, I contain multitudes)."--Walt Whitman From akodobob at sbcglobal.net Thu May 22 17:41:28 2003 From: akodobob at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 17:41:28 -0700 Subject: Assassinations at Valabar's References: <6EA6FC89.2E10063F.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <002501c320c4$0caa6bc0$6401a8c0@DELL1> What I think would be cool to see, would be a dual story, with new Vlad encountering some situation or people that he had met in the past, and from there recount both the old story and the new. AkodoBob -who has far too little sleep. > SKZB has said that he's under contract to write two more > Vlad novels. But I doubt we'll hear about them until the > rest of the Viscount books come out. Although SKZB never > said when the new books will take place, I'm hoping they > take place right after _Issola_. > >Personally, I think _Issola_ is a good place to pause for a >bit and fill in some of the holes in Vlad's life. Sure, I'd >love to see Vlad and in action, but there isn't any >urgency; the only plot threads still loose are some family >issues. > >A while ago in his weblog, Brust mentioned something about a >murder mystery he's working on. I'd love to hear more >details on that too... > > >--KG From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu May 22 19:16:50 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 19:16:50 -0700 Subject: Assassinations at Valabar's In-Reply-To: <20030522212802.35403.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030522191441.037b93b0@localhost> At 02:28 PM 5/22/2003 -0700, Greg Rapawy wrote: >--- Philip Hart wrote: > you've said in the past that you felt it was >important in _Teckla_ and subsequent books to move Vlad away >from being an assassin because you felt that the first two Vlad >books came too close to glorifying, or endorsing, or failing to >condemn, his conduct. *blink* Did I say that? What was I on at the time? > Did you think about it consciously, or did you feel >that the conclusions you had drawn about the responsibilities of >an author naturally informed your later work? I tend to consider consequences in any story, because, well, that's part of the fun. I also enjoy setting a thing in one book and examining the consequences in another. Does that answer your question? It's all that comes to mind. From iwriddell at charter.net Thu May 22 21:21:26 2003 From: iwriddell at charter.net (Ian W. Riddell) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 23:21:26 -0500 Subject: Assassinations at Valabar's In-Reply-To: <1053632123.2535.0.camel@loiosh> References: <1053632123.2535.0.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: At 3:37 PM -0400 5/22/03, Jag wrote: >On Thu, 2003-05-22 at 10:28, James Griffin wrote: >> >> >From: Ivn Rebollo >> >>Which means that Vlad might be a rules-breaker once more, the first guy >> >>whom the Jhereg attempt to assassinate inside Valabar's.... >> >> >> >> There's a fun thought- New Vlad story? > >SKZB has said that he's under contract to write two more Vlad novels. >But I doubt we'll hear about them until the rest of the Viscount books >come out. Although SKZB never said when the new books will take place, >I'm hoping they take place right after _Issola_. I'm not sure if I'm alone in this (I haven't been around this group long enough), but I'd like to see more of Savn. I enjoyed his story and his perspective and I'd be interested to see how he interacts with Vlad after what happened to him. And I don't remember that he was completely healed at the end of "Orca" was he? widdy -- Fairy tales are not true--fairy tales are important, and they are not true, they are more than true. Not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be defeated. G.K. Chesterton -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ian W. Riddell iwriddell at charter.net From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Thu May 22 22:53:09 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 05:53:09 +0000 Subject: Copy of Orca Message-ID: Hi everybody: I am going to purchase "The book of Athyra" in order to read "Athyra", because I haven't found the book alone. The fact is that I already have my copy of "Orca", so if there is anyone near Spain who wants it I will be glad to send him it, 'cause I know how difficult is to find Vlad's books in Spain or other non-english speaking countries. _________________________________________________________________ Localiza y ponte en contacto con tus antiguos compa?eros de clase en MSN Compa?eros. http://mipasado.msn.es/ From zizban at adelphia.net Fri May 23 05:47:40 2003 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 08:47:40 -0400 Subject: Assassinations at Valabar's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Friday, May 23, 2003, at 12:21 AM, Ian W. Riddell wrote: > At 3:37 PM -0400 5/22/03, Jag wrote: >> On Thu, 2003-05-22 at 10:28, James Griffin wrote: >>> >>> >From: Ivn Rebollo >>> >>Which means that Vlad might be a rules-breaker once more, the >>> first guy >>> >>whom the Jhereg attempt to assassinate inside Valabar's.... >>> >> >>> >>> There's a fun thought- New Vlad story? >> >> SKZB has said that he's under contract to write two more Vlad novels. >> But I doubt we'll hear about them until the rest of the Viscount books >> come out. Although SKZB never said when the new books will take >> place, >> I'm hoping they take place right after _Issola_. > > I'm not sure if I'm alone in this (I haven't been around this group > long enough), but I'd like to see more of Savn. I enjoyed his story > and his perspective and I'd be interested to see how he interacts with > Vlad after what happened to him. And I don't remember that he was > completely healed at the end of "Orca" was he? > > widdy > I don't know if Savn is in any mental condition to tell any tale. ------ "...Wouldn't it be worse if life were fair, and everything bad that happens to us happens because we deserve it?" -Marcus Cole, Babylon 5. From grapawy at yahoo.com Fri May 23 09:18:16 2003 From: grapawy at yahoo.com (Greg Rapawy) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 09:18:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Assassinations at Valabar's In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030522191441.037b93b0@localhost> Message-ID: <20030523161816.17242.qmail@web21106.mail.yahoo.com> --- Steven Brust wrote: > At 02:28 PM 5/22/2003 -0700, Greg Rapawy wrote: [...] >> you've said in the past that you felt it was >> important in _Teckla_ and subsequent books to move Vlad >> away from being an assassin because you felt that the first >> two Vlad books came too close to glorifying, or endorsing, >> or failing to condemn, his conduct. > *blink* > > Did I say that? > What was I on at the time? This is the language I was remembering: ] It turns out that Teckla was written after a friend of ] Brust's (who was a communist orgainzer) was killed by the ] mafia. This, not suprisingly, set off a lot of soul- ] searching on Brust's part about glamorizing hit-men an was ] behind Vlad's transformation into _ex-_mob boss/hitman ] ending with Phoenix. He mentioned spending a lot of time ] thinking about John Gardner's book On Moral Fiction. This ] also makes the character of the ghost in Teckla a bit more ] compelling. , quoting , which is now a broken link. Of course, it is hearsay, so you may well have said something else that was distorted in transmission. The quote is obviously personal, which is why I tried to phrase the question diffidently; I was curious about whether your thinking on the subject had evolved as the chronology of the series did. I do think _Dragon_, for instance, shows Vlad more concerned with moral issues than _Jhereg_ or _Yendi_ does -- not introspective, perhaps, but beginning to think about why he finds some Dragaeran behavior repellent, and to compare it to his own. -- Greg From charles_sumner at harvard.edu Fri May 23 10:42:39 2003 From: charles_sumner at harvard.edu (charles_sumner at harvard.edu) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 13:42:39 -0400 Subject: Assassinations at Valabar's In-Reply-To: References: <200305222002.h4MK2kI19011@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <200305222002.h4MK2kI19011@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030523133243.00aaaca8@camail2.harvard.edu> At 02:03 PM 5/22/2003 -0700, Philip Hart wrote: >I was counting on 17 Vlad novels, but >even if Vlad dies or becomes a god after #10, there's always the past to >mine (a demon takes over Blackwand, the fight for the Necromancer's >soul, ...) Actually, if you want to hope for the best, it would be 19 Vlad novels. Mr. Brust has said if he lasts long enough and doesn't get tired of them, the plan is to write one for each house, plus [the already published] "Taltos" and a final book called "The Last Contract." Charley Sumner charles_sumner at harvard.edu "That's brilliant! They've hid the information in plain sight by disguising it as a web page." From Gaertk at aol.com Fri May 23 12:01:00 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 15:01:00 -0400 Subject: Assassinations at Valabar's Message-ID: <1BDF892C.3DC259A6.00048EA6@aol.com> Steven Brust writes: > I tend to consider consequences in any story, because, > well, that's part of the fun. It's also a sure sign of an Author Worth Reading; I really hate books where the main characters' choices turn out to be inconsequential. --KG From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri May 23 12:08:59 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:08:59 -0700 Subject: Assassinations at Valabar's In-Reply-To: <20030523161816.17242.qmail@web21106.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030522191441.037b93b0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030523120807.02bc21c0@localhost> At 09:18 AM 5/23/2003 -0700, Greg Rapawy wrote: > >, quoting >, >which is now a broken link. Of course, it is hearsay, so you >may well have said something else that was distorted in >transmission. Uh yeah, that's possible. :-) From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri May 23 12:38:14 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Assassinations at Valabar's In-Reply-To: <1BDF892C.3DC259A6.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <1BDF892C.3DC259A6.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 May 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > Steven Brust writes: > > > I tend to consider consequences in any story, because, > > well, that's part of the fun. > > It's also a sure sign of an Author Worth Reading; I really > hate books where the main characters' choices turn out to be > inconsequential. I think it's useful to have such books to counter the religious "I am the master of my fate" propaganda with the scientific "it's all physics anyway" viewpoint, if you'll forgive the rough-and-ready categorization. And if for no other reason than having every plot turn on heroism would get boring. From singram at videotron.ca Fri May 23 22:05:58 2003 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 01:05:58 -0400 Subject: Rilly short book summaries References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030522191441.037b93b0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20030523120807.02bc21c0@localhost> Message-ID: <002f01c321b2$29a65dd0$50768342@ingram> http://www.rinkworks.com/bookaminute/sff.shtml Anybody seen these before? They're a blast. I love their take on Piers Anthony's work. -Scott Ingram PS. Apologies if this link has been posted here before. From zizban at adelphia.net Sat May 24 07:18:15 2003 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 10:18:15 -0400 Subject: Rilly short book summaries In-Reply-To: <002f01c321b2$29a65dd0$50768342@ingram> Message-ID: <8F5018A5-8DF2-11D7-8023-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> On Saturday, May 24, 2003, at 01:05 AM, Scott Ingram wrote: > http://www.rinkworks.com/bookaminute/sff.shtml > > > Anybody seen these before? They're a blast. > I love their take on Piers Anthony's work. > > -Scott Ingram > > PS. Apologies if this link has been posted here before. I hadn't seen it before. Funny stuff! --- "Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself (I am large, I contain multitudes)."--Walt Whitman From WyrmOuroboros at comcast.net Sat May 24 22:56:24 2003 From: WyrmOuroboros at comcast.net (Thomas FURNITURE ARTIST) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 01:56:24 -0400 Subject: Assassinations at Valabar's Message-ID: <492c64b492bbb2.492bbb2492c64b@icomcast.net> > There's a fun thought- New Vlad story? Oddly enough, if the next Vlad story DOES pick up right there, I think it would be interesting for Steve to (again) write in the person of someone not Vlad -- or, perhaps instead of an 'Athyra' (entirely in the person of someone !Vlad), an 'Orca' (part Vlad, part the other). The person I'd select would, of course, be the one guy we REALLY have all been waiting to hear the inner thoughts from, the one guy in the Jhereg still more-or-less loyal to Vlad -- Kragar. The scene starts rolling in my head: The guy I hired to take over for Melestav wasn't as good; not for the first time I cursed the idiot for taking that shot at Vlad. I suppose I didn't blame him; the price on that particular Easterner's head made the amount they paid him to take a certain Dzur/Dragon crossbreed Jhereg for a walk in the jungles seem piddly by comparison. And then my new secretary walked into my office. "Boss, you ain't gonna believe this, but you'll never guess who's sitting in Valabar's right now." I've always hated guessing games. "The Empress?" He shook his head. "Nope. That Easterner, Taltos." He didn't pronounce Vlad's name right; you just can't get good help these days. I sat there for about a minute, then shook my head. Vlad coming back to Adrilankha meant he was either completely insane, wanting to give a Morganti blade a dinner as good (to its palate) as Valabar's was to everyone else's, or ... I couldn't come up with a third reason. "Okay. Good work. Ummm, keep a lid on this; I don't want every two-bit hood getting in our way trying to take a shot." "Right, boss." He walked out. Maybe stupidity was something you - should- hire for every now and then. I shook my head; I hoped Vlad wouldn't mind seeing an old friend -- once he noticed me, I mean... -- Thomas Crain From terrick at cox.net Sun May 25 07:39:57 2003 From: terrick at cox.net (Ryan) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 09:39:57 -0500 Subject: Length of the Interregnum (Was Re: Spoilers- PotD and Issola) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001101c322cb$83ce0b90$6464a8c0@nngco.mehcpipelines.com> >It looks as if Brust the author slipped. Of course, time flows differently in the Paths of the Dead, where >Morrolan meets Baritt before Baritt has died in Dragaera [], so maybe there's a loophole for Verra there. And, of >course, it would have been impolitic even for Vlad to correct a goddess's arithmetic when the number was not > >germane to the business at hand. Likely more Vlad didn't realize it or know, else I think he would've said something. From terrick at cox.net Sun May 25 07:45:29 2003 From: terrick at cox.net (Ryan) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 09:45:29 -0500 Subject: Elric (was Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001201c322cc$497234c0$6464a8c0@nngco.mehcpipelines.com> Ok this has me thinking so I'll ask. Steve have you ever read any of the Elric novels and if so did any of that have any influence on how Morrolan was developed? I don't have any Elric books remaining but I've always thought of stormbringer anytime great weapons were mentioned. Anyone else had these thoughts or am I just in need of more sleep? From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sun May 25 12:01:30 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 12:01:30 -0700 Subject: Elric (was Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon) In-Reply-To: <001201c322cc$497234c0$6464a8c0@nngco.mehcpipelines.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030525115728.03b14c80@localhost> At 09:45 AM 5/25/2003 -0500, Ryan wrote: >Ok this has me thinking so I'll ask. >Steve have you ever read any of the Elric novels and if so did any of >that have any influence on how Morrolan was developed? I don't have any >Elric books remaining but I've always thought of stormbringer anytime >great weapons were mentioned. > >Anyone else had these thoughts or am I just in need of more sleep? Okay, I thought it was kind of obvious. Just in case it isn't: yes, Moorcock's Elric books are huge influence. Hmmm. You can think of the Vlad books this way: A world created in honor of Fritz Leiber Fantasy tropes created in honor of Michael Moorcock A narrative style in honor of Dashiel Hammet A general aesthetic in honor of Roger Zelazny From spenn at shaw.ca Sun May 25 12:58:31 2003 From: spenn at shaw.ca (Sean) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 12:58:31 -0700 Subject: Elric (was Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030525115728.03b14c80@localhost> Message-ID: <000801c322f8$04af7fb0$883e5418@dontbenosy> Steve said: > Hmmm. > > You can think of the Vlad books this way: > A world created in honor of Fritz Leiber > Fantasy tropes created in honor of Michael Moorcock > A narrative style in honor of Dashiel Hammet > A general aesthetic in honor of Roger Zelazny > Which explains why I groove on them so much - though I am not familiar with the works of Hammet, my top ten list of favourite fantasy writes goes - Zelazny, Moorcock (just read his new one - Dreamthief's Daughter - quite good - love the background on Oona) and Leiber (the other 7 are irrelevant to this list). Gonna go check out some Dashiel Hammet now... Sean From spenn at shaw.ca Sun May 25 13:02:09 2003 From: spenn at shaw.ca (Sean) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 13:02:09 -0700 Subject: Elric (was Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon) Message-ID: <001101c322f8$8653d2a0$883e5418@dontbenosy> > Steve said: > > > Hmmm. > > > > You can think of the Vlad books this way: > > A world created in honor of Fritz Leiber > > Fantasy tropes created in honor of Michael Moorcock > > A narrative style in honor of Dashiel Hammet > > A general aesthetic in honor of Roger Zelazny > > I said: > Which explains why I groove on them so much - though I am not familiar with > the works of Hammet, my top ten list of favourite fantasy writes goes - > Zelazny, Moorcock (just read his new one - Dreamthief's Daughter - quite > good - love the background on Oona) and Leiber (the other 7 are irrelevant > to this list). > > Gonna go check out some Dashiel Hammet now... > > Sean > Whaddya know.. I'm already familiar with his work! I should've guessed... From akomins at midway.uchicago.edu Sun May 25 13:03:42 2003 From: akomins at midway.uchicago.edu (Arin Komins) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 15:03:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: OT: Re: Elric (was Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon) In-Reply-To: <000801c322f8$04af7fb0$883e5418@dontbenosy> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 May 2003, Sean wrote: :Subject: Re: Elric (was Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon) : :Steve said: : :Which explains why I groove on them so much - though I am not familiar with :the works of Hammet, my top ten list of favourite fantasy writes goes - :Zelazny, Moorcock (just read his new one - Dreamthief's Daughter - quite :good - love the background on Oona) and Leiber (the other 7 are irrelevant :to this list). on moorcock notes: I really liked Dreamthief's Daughter (bits of it echoed Lovecraft for me, particularly the dreamlands stuff), but I just read its sequel (the skrayling tree), and while it did bits of holdstock (mmm, mythic forests), it wasn't anywhere near as good. imho. Arin -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Arin Komins akomins at uchicago.edu Manager of Web Systems Architecture University of Chicago/ENSS/NSIT tel: (773)834-4087 1155 E. 60th St. #302B Chicago, IL 60637 fax: (773)702-0559 ------------------------------------------------------------------ From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun May 25 13:10:54 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 13:10:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Elric (was Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030525115728.03b14c80@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030525115728.03b14c80@localhost> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 May 2003, Steven Brust wrote: > At 09:45 AM 5/25/2003 -0500, Ryan wrote: > You can think of the Vlad books this way: > A world created in honor of Fritz Leiber > Fantasy tropes created in honor of Michael Moorcock > A narrative style in honor of Dashiel Hammet > A general aesthetic in honor of Roger Zelazny I get/got Zelazny, Moorcock (though I'd prefer more Warhound and the World's Pain than Stormbringer, or maybe some Gloriana re the court), Hammett (though I totally missed the following, from the opening of The Maltese Falcon: Sam Spade's jaw was long and bony, his chin a jutting v under the more flexible v of his mouth. His yellow-grey eyes were horizontal. The v motif was picked up again by thickish brows rising outward from twin creases above a hooked nose, and his pale brown hair grew down--from high flat temples--in a point on his forehead. He looked rather pleasantly like a blond satan. ), but though I've read all the Fafhrd (sp?) and the Grey Mouser (ok, twenty years ago) stories I don't get Fritz Leiber. Hmm, Gonna Roll the Bones for gambling? Nope. p.s. Sam Spade is "quite six feet tall" - guess Hammett's editor didn't think "quite seven feet tall" would go over well. From yhcrana13 at hotmail.com Sun May 25 18:22:10 2003 From: yhcrana13 at hotmail.com (A. Nonymous) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 20:22:10 -0500 Subject: Elric (was Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon) Message-ID: >From: Steven Brust >A narrative style in honor of Dashiel Hammet > Mmmmm... Hard-boiled goodness. I've noticed that the Vlad/Loiosh relationship seems to have a lot of Nick and Nora Charles from The Thin Man in it. Smart-alecky sniping disguising love and affection. Josh Collins The Guide is definitive. Reality is frequently inaccurate. (Douglas Adams - The Restaurant at the End of the Universe) yhcrana13 at hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Sun May 25 23:47:22 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 06:47:22 +0000 Subject: Assassinations at Valabar's Message-ID: Thomas Crain wrote: >The >person I'd select would, of course, be the one guy we REALLY have all >been waiting to hear the inner thoughts from, the one guy in the Jhereg >still more-or-less loyal to Vlad -- Kragar. The scene starts rolling >in my head: It sounds great! Come on, I am waiting for more! _________________________________________________________________ Hipotecas para todos los bolsillos con MSN Money. http://money.msn.es/hipotecas/default.asp From mam at theworld.com Mon May 26 10:43:52 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 13:43:52 -0400 Subject: Elric (was Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030525115728.03b14c80@localhost> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 May 2003, Steven Brust wrote: # #Okay, I thought it was kind of obvious. Just in case it isn't: yes, #Moorcock's Elric books are huge influence. # #Hmmm. # #You can think of the Vlad books this way: #A world created in honor of Fritz Leiber #Fantasy tropes created in honor of Michael Moorcock #A narrative style in honor of Dashiel Hammet #A general aesthetic in honor of Roger Zelazny Steve, unless you object this is going to get a section all its own at the top of my "Jokes and Allusions" page. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From davids at kithrup.com Mon May 26 11:26:49 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 11:26:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Elric (was Lord of Castle Black is up at Amazon) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 May 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Sun, 25 May 2003, Steven Brust wrote: > ># >#Okay, I thought it was kind of obvious. Just in case it isn't: yes, >#Moorcock's Elric books are huge influence. ># >#Hmmm. ># >#You can think of the Vlad books this way: >#A world created in honor of Fritz Leiber >#Fantasy tropes created in honor of Michael Moorcock >#A narrative style in honor of Dashiel Hammet >#A general aesthetic in honor of Roger Zelazny > >Steve, unless you object this is going to get a section all its own >at the top of my "Jokes and Allusions" page. > Don't forget that "Hammett" has two "t"s. Am I correct in assuming that the only thing that differs between the Vlad books and the Paarfi books is that the narrative style is in honor of Alexandre Dumas? Which in turn makes me wonder if the narrative styles of other books are in honor of anyone or anything. For example, might "Brokedown Palace" be in a narrative style in honor of Hungarian folktales? From RuhlenR at missouri.edu Mon May 26 18:53:15 2003 From: RuhlenR at missouri.edu (Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student)) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 20:53:15 -0500 Subject: it is time to talk cook book Message-ID: <5933733D73CBA149A8178066DE6022B9087E67@COL-EMAIL3.col.missouri.edu> Steven Brust wrote: >Alas, I don't know of one since The Bakery in Chicago closed. Of course, >any street corner in Budapest will produce places with some similarities. How distressing. We have yet to find one thing we like about Chicago, where we will live in 10 days (for the post-doctoral position I was offered now that I have successfully defended my dissertation and graduated, something that I haven't yet made reference to too many times). The opportunity to visit a restaurant patronized by a favorite author would have been a small comfort to us. Rachel From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon May 26 22:56:17 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 22:56:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: it is time to talk cook book In-Reply-To: <5933733D73CBA149A8178066DE6022B9087E67@COL-EMAIL3.col.missouri.edu> References: <5933733D73CBA149A8178066DE6022B9087E67@COL-EMAIL3.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: I'm having trouble feeling sorry for you, except that I live in a relatively sunny part of San Francisco. I did my graduate work at the UofC and think Chicago is a great town - for food, for music, for sports if you care, for architecture, art, for nice sane people. Maybe I'd prefer to be in Paris, having lived in Knoxville, New York, Darmstadt, Geneva, and Santa Barbara - but imho you should buy a warm coat and a copy of The Last Hot Time and feel lucky. On Mon, 26 May 2003, Ruhlen, Rachel Louise (UMC-Student) wrote: > Steven Brust wrote: > > >Alas, I don't know of one since The Bakery in Chicago closed. Of course, > >any street corner in Budapest will produce places with some similarities. > > How distressing. We have yet to find one thing we like about Chicago, > where we will live in 10 days (for the post-doctoral position I was > offered now that I have successfully defended my dissertation and > graduated, something that I haven't yet made reference to too many > times). The opportunity to visit a restaurant patronized by a favorite > author would have been a small comfort to us. > > Rachel > From mam at theworld.com Tue May 27 12:42:08 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 15:42:08 -0400 Subject: Loraan, Orlaan, Rolaan... Message-ID: This one's too much fun to sit on till I post my next list of updates to Cracks and Shards. http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/names.html#Loraan-Orlaan Loraan / Orlaan [2003-05-20] The male Athyra wizard from whom Vlad steals the staff containing Aliera's soul in Taltos, and whom he battles in Athyra, is named Loraan. The sorceress who opposes our young heroes in Paths of the Dead and who, when we first meet her, seems to be picking flowers in a meadow but is actually searching for a disembodied soul, is named Orlaan. It is easy and obvious to suppose a connection between them, and in fact... ("Boss! BOSS! You're beginning to sound like Paarfi again!" "Wha'?... Oh! Yes, I was. Thanks, pal." "Just doing my job.") Where was I? Oh, yes. When POTD came out, several members of the Dragaera mailing list noted this similarity and inferred that Loraan and Orlaan were the same person, with a change of sex. (Ben Newman points out the similarity to Virginia Woolf's character Orlando, who also changed sex.) Brust replied to the effect of (not anything like an exact quote) "Oh, damn! No, they're not the same person. That was a dumb mistake on my part. I never even noticed that similarity." For that matter, there also is, or was, a Jhereg boss named Rolaan [Yen13]. There are three other permutations of R-O-L followed by "aan": Lroaan, Rloaan, and Olraan, of which only the third is reasonably pronounceable by the norms of the fairly large number of Dragaeran names we've seen. The first one, though, brings to mind R?aanac and his daughter R?aana in _The Paths of the Dead_. (I don't think the dieresis ["umlaut"] on the 'o' is meant to indicate a front rounded vowel as in German or Hungarian, but a syllable boundary between the "o" and the "aa": "roe-ah-na" instead of "roan-a".) Steve, I urge you to shake off your obsession with these particular letters. In case you can't, or to help you catch yourself, I offer you a table of the 360 anagrams of "Loraan" . Use it in good health. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue May 27 15:34:09 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 15:34:09 -0700 Subject: Loraan, Orlaan, Rolaan... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030527153349.02dd7710@localhost> At 03:42 PM 5/27/2003 -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote: > >Steve, I urge you to shake off your obsession with these particular >letters. In case you can't, or to help you catch yourself, I offer you a >table of the 360 anagrams of "Loraan" Thank you *so* much. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue May 27 15:49:00 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 15:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Loraan, Orlaan, Rolaan... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030527153349.02dd7710@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030527153349.02dd7710@localhost> Message-ID: Mark, I'm reading a book by Steven Pinker called _Words and Rules_ which leads me to suspect there may be deep brain structures at work here - I suggest you expand your useful table. I note that "l" and "r" are both classsed as semi-vowels (liquids, in fact) - you might allow substitution of the other s-vs, /w/ and /y/ (wind, yuck). And the vowels of interest here are both back-of-the-tongue - you might add /u/ or /e/. I think by doing so you can create enough character names for SKZB to populate the rest of his Vlad and Paarfi novels, many may they be. On Tue, 27 May 2003, Steven Brust wrote: > At 03:42 PM 5/27/2003 -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote: > > > >Steve, I urge you to shake off your obsession with these particular > >letters. In case you can't, or to help you catch yourself, I offer you a > >table of the 360 anagrams of "Loraan" > > Thank you *so* much. > > > > From mam at theworld.com Wed May 28 08:36:45 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 11:36:45 -0400 Subject: Loraan, Orlaan, Rolaan... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 2003, Philip Hart wrote: #Mark, I'm reading a book by Steven Pinker called _Words and Rules_ which #leads me to suspect there may be deep brain structures at work here - I #suggest you expand your useful table. I note that "l" and "r" are both #classsed as semi-vowels (liquids, in fact) - you might allow substitution #of the other s-vs, /w/ and /y/ (wind, yuck). And the vowels of interest #here are both back-of-the-tongue - you might add /u/ or /e/. I think by #doing so you can create enough character names for SKZB to populate the #rest of his Vlad and Paarfi novels, many may they be. Well... (1) I'm a linguist by avocation, education, and profession. That's a language scientist here, not a polyglot or a translator. So I know what you're talking about, without the explanations. (2) My intention was JUST to provide the anagrams of "Loraan", with some classification. (3) Are you crazy? Or just trying to drive me crazy? ("Easy, boss!" "As if I had the time..." "So why ain'tcha workin' now? You *are* at your office." "Shut up, Loiosh.") -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed May 28 10:00:23 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 10:00:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Loraan, Orlaan, Rolaan... Message-ID: <200305281700.h4SH0CI03763@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > ("Easy, boss!" > "As if I had the time..." > "So why ain'tcha workin' now? You *are* at your office." > "Shut up, Loiosh.") Offices, like wiffle bats and duct tape, are made to be misused.... What? Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From davids at kithrup.com Wed May 28 13:16:06 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 13:16:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Loraan, Orlaan, Rolaan... In-Reply-To: <200305281700.h4SH0CI03763@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 May 2003, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > >Offices, like wiffle bats and duct tape, are made to be misused.... > I think I'm going to steal that line. In the same vein [1]: Cubicles, like styrofoam peanuts and clear packing tape, are made to be misused. http://carcino.gen.nz/images/index.php/64270597/1e9244bc [1] Jugular, of course. From zizban at adelphia.net Wed May 28 13:19:04 2003 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 16:19:04 -0400 Subject: Loraan, Orlaan, Rolaan... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wednesday, May 28, 2003, at 04:16 PM, David Silberstein wrote: > [1] Jugular, of course. Speaking of Jugulars, I think I am going to write a short story with characters whose names are anagrams of Loraan. The title will be "A Night At Steve's Bar and Grill" :-) --- "Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself (I am large, I contain multitudes)."--Walt Whitman From gomi at speakeasy.net Wed May 28 13:20:35 2003 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 13:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Loraan, Orlaan, Rolaan... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 May 2003, Chris Turkel wrote: > Speaking of Jugulars, I think I am going to write a short story with > characters whose names are anagrams of Loraan. The title will be "A > Night At Steve's Bar and Grill" :-) 'Steve's Bra and Girl' might be more apropos. paul e. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed May 28 13:20:48 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 13:20:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Loraan, Orlaan, Rolaan... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 May 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > In the same vein [1]: Cubicles, like styrofoam peanuts and clear > packing tape, are made to be misused. > > http://carcino.gen.nz/images/index.php/64270597/1e9244bc > > [1] Jugular, of course. I think a lot of comedians used to juggle - I wonder why they stopped. From zizban at adelphia.net Wed May 28 13:21:57 2003 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 16:21:57 -0400 Subject: Loraan, Orlaan, Rolaan... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <080ED5B2-914A-11D7-9ACE-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> On Wednesday, May 28, 2003, at 04:20 PM, Gomi no Sensei wrote: > > On Wed, 28 May 2003, Chris Turkel wrote: > >> Speaking of Jugulars, I think I am going to write a short story with >> characters whose names are anagrams of Loraan. The title will be "A >> Night At Steve's Bar and Grill" :-) > > 'Steve's Bra and Girl' might be more apropos. > > paul e. Yes, I agree :-) ------ "...Wouldn't it be worse if life were fair, and everything bad that happens to us happens because we deserve it?" -Marcus Cole, Babylon 5. From davids at kithrup.com Wed May 28 13:22:36 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 13:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Loraan, Orlaan, Rolaan... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > >I offer you a table of the 360 anagrams of "Loraan" >. >Use it in good health. I simply cannot help thinking that someone with the combined name of "Anoral Oranal" sounds like someone who likes having it both ways. I should probably smack myself right about now. From zizban at adelphia.net Wed May 28 13:23:58 2003 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 16:23:58 -0400 Subject: Loraan, Orlaan, Rolaan... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4FA195BD-914A-11D7-9ACE-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> On Wednesday, May 28, 2003, at 04:22 PM, David Silberstein wrote: > On Tue, 27 May 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > >> >> I offer you a table of the 360 anagrams of "Loraan" >> . >> Use it in good health. > > I simply cannot help thinking that someone with the combined name of > "Anoral Oranal" sounds like someone who likes having it both ways. > > I should probably smack myself right about now. No! Don't smack yourself. let us do it for you. --- "If they've already seen your best they can do without the rest, don't ya know."---James McMutry From valerie at drizzle.com Wed May 28 13:31:47 2003 From: valerie at drizzle.com (valerie at drizzle.com) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 13:31:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Loraan, Orlaan, Rolaan... In-Reply-To: References: <200305281700.h4SH0CI03763@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <10503.206.124.138.14.1054153907.squirrel@drizzlemail.drizzle.com> > On Wed, 28 May 2003, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > >> >>Offices, like wiffle bats and duct tape, are made to be misused.... >> > > I think I'm going to steal that line. am i the only one who is creeped out by that line? perhaps it is due to a certain beastie boys' song from 'license to ill' that i had to listen to over and over in my male friends' cars in the mid 80's. *shudder* -v From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed May 28 14:30:20 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 14:30:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Loraan, Orlaan, Rolaan... Message-ID: <200305282130.h4SLU7I02138@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > >>Offices, like wiffle bats and duct tape, are made to be misused.... > >> > > > > I think I'm going to steal that line. See, ya can't go stealin' it if you tell me you're going to steal it. Then it's not stealing. You're welcome to use it anyway. In fact, I'll just forget you mentioned it, that way you can steal it in truth. More fun that way.... > am i the only one who is creeped out by that line? Now what inference could you have possibly made by such an innocuous comment? Don't know what you mean. Nope, nope. And no, I don't protest too much; I don't know who started such vicious rumors.... > perhaps it is due to a certain beastie boys' song from 'license to ill' > that i had to listen to over and over in my male friends' cars in the mid > 80's. Hmm... Can't help with that. I know some of their music, but not enough to know their songs.... Having fun at the office, Chris "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, son." - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm From Chrisf.Olson at sun.com Wed May 28 14:41:07 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at sun.com (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 14:41:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Loraan, Orlaan, Rolaan... Message-ID: <200305282140.h4SLetI04391@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> >>Hmm... Can't help with that. I know some of their music, but not >>enough to know their songs.... > I did it like this, I did it like that, I did it with a wiffle ball bat so.... Ah.... Okay, I'm recalling that one now. Thanks. And, well, it wasn't intentional. I could have said penguin feet, even!! Okay, I'll go back to work.... Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From nytemuse at auros.org Wed May 28 18:01:52 2003 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 18:01:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Loraan, Orlaan, Rolaan... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 May 2003, Gomi no Sensei wrote: > On Wed, 28 May 2003, Chris Turkel wrote: > > Speaking of Jugulars, I think I am going to write a short story with > > characters whose names are anagrams of Loraan. The title will be "A > > Night At Steve's Bar and Grill" :-) > > 'Steve's Bra and Girl' might be more apropos. Ack! Now I've got that panel from ConJose stuck in my head, with Terry Pratchett and Tad Williams about the round-robin story-telling...that was so bizarre... ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From zizban at adelphia.net Wed May 28 18:05:04 2003 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 21:05:04 -0400 Subject: Loraan, Orlaan, Rolaan... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <94DB2970-9171-11D7-A60E-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> On Wednesday, May 28, 2003, at 09:01 PM, Nytemuse wrote: > On Wed, 28 May 2003, Gomi no Sensei wrote: >> On Wed, 28 May 2003, Chris Turkel wrote: >>> Speaking of Jugulars, I think I am going to write a short story with >>> characters whose names are anagrams of Loraan. The title will be "A >>> Night At Steve's Bar and Grill" :-) >> >> 'Steve's Bra and Girl' might be more apropos. > > Ack! Now I've got that panel from ConJose stuck in my head, with Terry > Pratchett and Tad Williams about the round-robin story-telling...that > was > so bizarre... Round robin, you say? hmmmmmmmmm..... "It was a dark and stormy night in the city of Aalron. I was hungry and decided to get some chow at Laanro's Bar and Grill. It was then I met a man....." --- "Everybody generalizes from one example. At least, I do."--Steven Brust From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Wed May 28 19:02:44 2003 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 21:02:44 -0500 Subject: Chicago (was Cook Book References: <5933733D73CBA149A8178066DE6022B9087E67@COL-EMAIL3.col.missouri.edu> Message-ID: <3ED56A44.6070107@attbi.com> Rachel, What do you *want* in a city? I miss Chicago so much; I'm stuck in Minnesota for the rest of my life and I miss Chicago . . . Mia From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Wed May 28 19:47:14 2003 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 21:47:14 -0500 Subject: Loraan, Orlaan, Rolaan... References: <94DB2970-9171-11D7-A60E-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <3ED574B2.8070705@attbi.com> Round robin, you say? hmmmmmmmmm..... "It was a dark and stormy night in the city of Aalron. I was hungry and decided to get some chow at Laanro's Bar and Grill. It was then I met a man. He was sitting at the end of the bar, nursing his beer. He clearly had a lot on his mind. He hadn't been there long; rain still dripped off of his long leather coat. I was a couple of seats down; eating my chili . . . From books at bofh.com Thu May 29 01:17:05 2003 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 01:17:05 -0700 Subject: Loraan, Orlaan, Rolaan... In-Reply-To: <3ED574B2.8070705@attbi.com> References: <94DB2970-9171-11D7-A60E-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> <3ED574B2.8070705@attbi.com> Message-ID: <20030529081705.GA12069@bofh.com> On Wed, May 28, 2003 at 09:47:14PM -0500, Mia McDavid wrote: > > Round robin, you say? hmmmmmmmmm..... I toyed between being serious and going in the Bulwer-Lytton [1] style. However, with that start, I couldn't resist. I apologize in advance. "It was a dark and stormy night in the city of Aalron. I was hungry and decided to get some chow at Laanro's Bar and Grill. It was then I met a man. He was sitting at the end of the bar, nursing his beer. He clearly had a lot on his mind. He hadn't been there long; rain still dripped off of his long leather coat. I was a couple of seats down; eating my chili con carne. His beer, a Nalora Porter, appeared to have recovered from his brief mouth-to-mouth resucitatation effort, although I suspect that relationship was doomed to be a short one. I stared at my chili con carne, toying with it with my spoon when he spoke . . . [1] http://www.bulwer-lytton.com/ -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From casey at trinityhartford.org Wed May 28 13:42:26 2003 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 16:42:26 -0400 Subject: Warning (was RE: Loraan, Orlaan, Rolaan...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > In the same vein [1]: Cubicles, like styrofoam peanuts and clear > packing tape, are made to be misused. > Warning. Images included on the linked page may be inappropriate for some viewers/banned by corporate computer usage policies. I didn't expect this sort of thing from you, David. Now, the main image is indeed priceless, and words thrown around here have >from time to time pushed the limits, but there are some things that are more clearly over the line than others. Casey From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Thu May 29 09:03:06 2003 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 11:03:06 -0500 Subject: Chicago (was Cook Book References: <5933733D73CBA149A8178066DE6022B9087E67@COL-EMAIL3.col.missouri.edu> <3ED56A44.6070107@attbi.com> Message-ID: <3ED62F3A.4040904@attbi.com> Yeah, but the Bay area does have compensations. So does Minnesota. There are egrets. They're even bigger than the mosquitos. . Mia From kisc at insaneninjahero.com Thu May 29 09:46:15 2003 From: kisc at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill Guilbert ) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 09:46:15 -0700 Subject: Loraan, Orlaan, Rolaan... Message-ID: <200305290946.AA543293554@insaneninjahero.com> >>I offer you a table of the 360 anagrams of "Loraan" >>. >>Use it in good health. > >I simply cannot help thinking that someone with the combined name of >"Anoral Oranal" sounds like someone who likes having it both ways. Ah, this is one of those lists. Sweet! Kisc ____________________________________________________________ Free 20MB Web Site Hosting and Personalized E-mail Service! Get It Now At Doteasy.com http://www.doteasy.com/et/ From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu May 29 11:55:37 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 11:55:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Loraan, Orlaan, Rolaan... Message-ID: <200305291855.h4TItNI17538@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> All right, since no one else has continued this, and I'm always looking for a good excuse to ignore my work.... > "It was a dark and stormy night in the city of Aalron. I was hungry and > decided to get some chow at Laanro's Bar and Grill. It was then I met a > man. He was sitting at the end of the bar, nursing his beer. He > clearly had a lot on his mind. He hadn't been there long; rain still > dripped off of his long leather coat. I was a couple of seats down; > eating my chili con carne. His beer, a Nalora Porter, appeared to have > recovered from his brief mouth-to-mouth resucitatation effort, > although I suspect that relationship was doomed to be a short one. > I stared at my chili con carne, toying with it with my spoon when he > spoke . . . "Hey, buddy. You know the biggest problem facing our world today? Flea collars. Damn things smell worse than an elderly male yak. And they chafe across the neck, too. I've got . . . Hmmm? ;> Chris (Who's got cats on the brain these days...:) "So farewell hope, and with hope, farewell fear, Farewell remorse! All good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my Good" - John Milton - 'Paradise Lost' From davids at kithrup.com Thu May 29 12:26:04 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 12:26:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Warning (was RE: Loraan, Orlaan, Rolaan...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 May 2003, Casey Rousseau wrote: >> >> In the same vein [1]: Cubicles, like styrofoam peanuts and clear >> packing tape, are made to be misused. >> > >Warning. Images included on the linked page may be inappropriate for some >viewers/banned by corporate computer usage policies. > >I didn't expect this sort of thing from you, David. > >Now, the main image is indeed priceless, and words thrown around here have >from time to time pushed the limits, but there are some things that are more >clearly over the line than others. > You're right, and I apologize. I do hope no-one gets into trouble by pulling up that page... From zizban at adelphia.net Thu May 29 13:14:45 2003 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 16:14:45 -0400 Subject: Loraan, Orlaan, Rolaan... In-Reply-To: <200305291855.h4TItNI17538@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <30A98C6D-9212-11D7-8804-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> On Thursday, May 29, 2003, at 02:55 PM, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > All right, since no one else has continued this, and > I'm always looking for a good excuse to ignore my work.... > >> "It was a dark and stormy night in the city of Aalron. I was hungry >> and >> decided to get some chow at Laanro's Bar and Grill. It was then I met >> a >> man. He was sitting at the end of the bar, nursing his beer. He >> clearly had a lot on his mind. He hadn't been there long; rain still >> dripped off of his long leather coat. I was a couple of seats down; >> eating my chili con carne. His beer, a Nalora Porter, appeared to >> have >> recovered from his brief mouth-to-mouth resucitatation effort, >> although I suspect that relationship was doomed to be a short one. >> I stared at my chili con carne, toying with it with my spoon when he >> spoke . . . > > "Hey, buddy. You know the biggest problem facing our world today? > Flea > collars. Damn things smell worse than an elderly male yak. And they > chafe across the neck, too. I've got a whole dozen back at the house. > Tried various brands too, and they all just as bad." Then to my surprise he began to itch. No just his arms, or a face like a normal human, but his under arms, between his fingers and he was reaching down to itch somewhere I didn't want to think about when SHE walked in, straight of heaven or one of those wet dreams mechanics have...." --- "Everybody generalizes from one example. At least, I do."--Steven Brust From kisc at insaneninjahero.com Sat May 31 16:25:41 2003 From: kisc at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill Guilbert ) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 16:25:41 -0700 Subject: Three guys walked into a bar; their names were Loraan, Orlaan, and Rolaan... Message-ID: <200305311625.AA39911514@insaneninjahero.com> It was a dark and stormy night in the city of Aalron. I was hungry and decided to get some chow at Laanro's Bar and Grill. It was then I met a man. He was sitting at the end of the bar, nursing his beer. He clearly had a lot on his mind. He hadn't been there long; rain still dripped off of his long leather coat. I was a couple of seats down, eating my chili con carne. His beer, a Nalora Porter, appeared to have recovered from his brief mouth-to-mouth resucitatation effort, although I suspect that relationship was doomed to be a short one. I stared at my chili con carne, toying with it with my spoon when he spoke . . . "Hey, buddy. You know the biggest problem facing our world today? Flea collars. Damn things smell worse than an elderly male yak. And they chafe across the neck, too. I've got a whole dozen back at the house. Tried various brands too, and they all just as bad." Then to my surprise he began to itch. Not just his arms, or a face like a normal human, but his under arms, between his fingers and he was reaching down to itch somewhere I didn't want to think about when SHE walked in, straight of heaven or one of those wet dreams mechanics have. She looked rich, and she had legs that I'd have bet one of my imaginary paychecks went all the way up, and she had one of those "you scratch my back and I'll scratch your anatomical hmmm" kind of looks... and she had grease up to her elbows. She might be having car trouble, or it might have been elbow grease, but there was no way I was going to figure that out from across the room. I could read her nametag from across the room, however ... ____________________________________________________________ Free 20MB Web Site Hosting and Personalized E-mail Service! Get It Now At Doteasy.com http://www.doteasy.com/et/ From nytemuse at auros.org Sat May 31 22:50:37 2003 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 22:50:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wear Brust on your Chest Message-ID: Ano...was I the only one who didn't know that Offworld Designs is now printing a jhereg T-shirt? *pout* Why am I always the last to know?!? ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From akomins at midway.uchicago.edu Sat May 31 23:33:15 2003 From: akomins at midway.uchicago.edu (Arin Komins) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 01:33:15 -0500 (CDT) Subject: offworld jhereg In-Reply-To: <7E09C524.1080509@mpls.cx> Message-ID: For NyteMuse, and anyone else who wants to see the shirt: http://www.offworlddesigns.com/store/index.html?target=Whatzhs_Newzv.html Arin -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Arin Komins akomins at uchicago.edu Manager of Web Systems Architecture University of Chicago/ENSS/NSIT tel: (773)834-4087 1155 E. 60th St. #302B Chicago, IL 60637 fax: (773)702-0559 ------------------------------------------------------------------ From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sat May 31 23:55:25 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 23:55:25 -0700 Subject: Wear Brust on your Chest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030531235513.01d80c70@localhost> At 10:50 PM 5/31/2003 -0700, Nytemuse wrote: >Ano...was I the only one who didn't know that Offworld Designs is now >printing a jhereg T-shirt? *pout* Why am I always the last to know?!? News to me. From zizban at adelphia.net Sun Jun 1 06:45:12 2003 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 09:45:12 -0400 Subject: Wear Brust on your Chest In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030531235513.01d80c70@localhost> Message-ID: <44C4C304-9437-11D7-9CEE-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> On Sunday, June 1, 2003, at 02:55 AM, Steven Brust wrote: > At 10:50 PM 5/31/2003 -0700, Nytemuse wrote: >> Ano...was I the only one who didn't know that Offworld Designs is now >> printing a jhereg T-shirt? *pout* Why am I always the last to >> know?!? > > News to me. Me too. Nice shirt, though. Did the copyright holder(s) give permission for this? --- "If they've already seen your best they can do without the rest, don't ya know."---James McMutry From bjf at wavefront.com Sun Jun 1 10:18:51 2003 From: bjf at wavefront.com (Beth Friedman) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 12:18:51 -0500 Subject: offworld jhereg In-Reply-To: References: <7E09C524.1080509@mpls.cx> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030601121800.05752ec0@shell.visi.com> In our previous episode at 01:33 AM 6/1/03, Arin Komins wrote: >For NyteMuse, and anyone else who wants to see the shirt: > >http://www.offworlddesigns.com/store/index.html?target=Whatzhs_Newzv.html They can call it a jhereg, or a smeerp for that matter, but it sure doesn't look like any jhereg described in the books. -- Beth Friedman / bjf at wavefront.com There are 10 types of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those who don't. From nytemuse at auros.org Sun Jun 1 10:24:43 2003 From: nytemuse at auros.org (Nytemuse) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 10:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: offworld jhereg In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030601121800.05752ec0@shell.visi.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Jun 2003, Beth Friedman wrote: > In our previous episode at 01:33 AM 6/1/03, Arin Komins wrote: > >For NyteMuse, and anyone else who wants to see the shirt: > > > >http://www.offworlddesigns.com/store/index.html?target=Whatzhs_Newzv.html > > They can call it a jhereg, or a smeerp for that matter, but it sure doesn't > look like any jhereg described in the books. No, but it IS pretty darn close to the pic on the cover of _Dragon_ ****** NyteMuse "Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse http://www.crowfire.com From eshivak at netzero.net Sun Jun 1 10:31:51 2003 From: eshivak at netzero.net (Eric Shivak) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 13:31:51 -0400 Subject: FW: Wear Brust on your Chest Message-ID: So... Color me clueless... But, is that legal? Are they allowed to use what I am assuming (with all risks involved in that already known) is a trademarked image without compensation? Eric Shivak SDD Computer Support Services eshivak at sddcomputersupport.com www.sddcomputersupport.com 631-269-5295 -----Original Message----- From: Steven Brust [mailto:skzb at dreamcafe.com] Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 2:55 AM To: Nytemuse; Dragaera Mailing List Subject: Re: Wear Brust on your Chest At 10:50 PM 5/31/2003 -0700, Nytemuse wrote: >Ano...was I the only one who didn't know that Offworld Designs is now >printing a jhereg T-shirt? *pout* Why am I always the last to know?!? News to me. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sun Jun 1 13:22:40 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 13:22:40 -0700 Subject: Wear Brust on your Chest In-Reply-To: <44C4C304-9437-11D7-9CEE-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030531235513.01d80c70@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030601132209.046d9b80@localhost> At 09:45 AM 6/1/2003 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: >On Sunday, June 1, 2003, at 02:55 AM, Steven Brust wrote: > >>At 10:50 PM 5/31/2003 -0700, Nytemuse wrote: >>>Ano...was I the only one who didn't know that Offworld Designs is now >>>printing a jhereg T-shirt? *pout* Why am I always the last to know?!? >> >>News to me. > >Me too. Nice shirt, though. Did the copyright holder(s) give permission >for this? The art is by Steve Hickman; I assume they got his permission. From Gaertk at aol.com Sun Jun 1 14:23:21 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 17:23:21 -0400 Subject: FW: Wear Brust on your Chest Message-ID: <4EC89238.77A26EF9.00048EA6@aol.com> Eric Shivak writes: > So... Color me clueless... But, is that legal? > > Are they allowed to use what I am assuming (with all risks > involved in that already known) is a trademarked image > without compensation? I doubt Brust could make any intellectual property claims on that image; after all, he didn't do any of the cover art for the books (and it isn't even an exact match to _Dragon_: look how the wing touches the tail). It does seem to be an exact match to: http://www.stephenhickman.com/index1.html [Odd, I noticed that _Dragon_ (mmpb) credits the image to STEVEN Hickman. Typo by Tor?] --KG From casey at trinityhartford.org Sun Jun 1 18:59:19 2003 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 21:59:19 -0400 Subject: FW: Wear Brust on your Chest Message-ID: konrad wrote: >http://www.stephenhickman.com/index1.html > > [Odd, I noticed that _Dragon_ (mmpb) credits the image to > STEVEN Hickman. Typo by Tor?] Then again, Stephen's site misspells Steven's name, too. Casey From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Sun Jun 1 19:24:35 2003 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 21:24:35 -0500 Subject: Wear Brust on your Chest References: Message-ID: <3EDAB563.4080300@attbi.com> I'd be scared to buy it. I bought a RMSN polo shirt, and the Honor Harrington tanked. I sure wouldn't want that to happen to Vlad! Mia From mam at theworld.com Mon Jun 2 08:01:13 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 11:01:13 -0400 Subject: Wear Brust on your Chest In-Reply-To: <3EDAB563.4080300@attbi.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Jun 2003, Mia McDavid wrote: #I'd be scared to buy it. # #I bought a RMSN polo shirt, and the Honor Harrington tanked. Huh? I understand Royal Manticore Space Navy (although is that the correct title for the force?) and Honor Harrington, but how did the picture "tank"? -- Mark A. Mandel From agrajag at dragaera.net Mon Jun 2 08:16:25 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 02 Jun 2003 11:16:25 -0400 Subject: Assassinations at Valabar's In-Reply-To: References: <200305222002.h4MK2kI19011@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <1054566985.2202.5.camel@loiosh> On Thu, 2003-05-22 at 17:03, Philip Hart wrote: > Having watched the final episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and knowing > that it's really final (given various central characters being killed off; Like that's ever stopped them before. Joss loves to kill main characters just because it throws the audience for a loop. And its not like the show hasn't already killed and brought back the main character :) Besides, one of those central characters that was killed will be brought back somehow (I don't know how) and will appear on the spinoff show "Angel". From dr.elmo at whiterose.org Mon Jun 2 09:03:34 2003 From: dr.elmo at whiterose.org (Greg Morrow) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 11:03:34 -0500 Subject: Wear Brust on your Chest In-Reply-To: References: <3EDAB563.4080300@attbi.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030602110238.020bb3a8@mail.whiterose.org> Mark A Mandel wondered aloud to the group: >On Sun, 1 Jun 2003, Mia McDavid wrote: > >#I'd be scared to buy it. ># >#I bought a RMSN polo shirt, and the Honor Harrington tanked. > >Huh? I understand Royal Manticore Space Navy (although is that the >correct title for the force?) and Honor Harrington, but how did the >picture "tank"? Probably the word "series" was omitted after "Honor Harrington". And I'd agree with the sentiment. -- "Kneel before my slingshot, puny Earthling...Ah, he's got a board with a nail in it!" "Enslave humanity, willya?"--the Simpsons mailto:Dr.Elmo at whiterose.org http://www.whiterose.org/dr.elmo/blog/ From casey at trinityhartford.org Mon Jun 2 09:42:03 2003 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 12:42:03 -0400 Subject: Wear Brust on your Chest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c32925$e5e98100$4601a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Mark A. Mandel wrote: > On Sun, 1 Jun 2003, Mia McDavid wrote: > > #I'd be scared to buy it. > # > #I bought a RMSN polo shirt, and the Honor Harrington tanked. > > Huh? I understand Royal Manticore Space Navy (although is > that the correct title for the force?) I fairly certain that it s/b RMN. Casey From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Mon Jun 2 10:09:23 2003 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 12:09:23 -0500 Subject: Wear Brust on your Chest References: Message-ID: <3EDB84C3.4040905@attbi.com> There's a picture??? No, the *series* tanked. The last book out has Dune Messiah syndrome. It's clogged with universe-building and committee meetings and nasty people pinching the bridges of their noses. I'm sure there's a novel I want to read in there *somewhere*, but I'm blessed if I've got the time and energy to go digging it out! Mia From casey at trinityhartford.org Mon Jun 2 10:15:10 2003 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 13:15:10 -0400 Subject: Wear Brust on your Chest In-Reply-To: <3EDB84C3.4040905@attbi.com> Message-ID: Mia wrote: > There's a picture??? > > No, the *series* tanked. The last book out has Dune Messiah syndrome. > It's clogged with universe-building and committee meetings and nasty > people pinching the bridges of their noses. I'm sure there's a novel I > want to read in there *somewhere*, but I'm blessed if I've got the time > and energy to go digging it out! > > Mia I haven't made it through yet either. I got in about 50 or 60 pages, but life interfered. As it happens, I'm now in the middle of reading Hornblower and having a rollicking good time of it. From vaklam at comcast.net Mon Jun 2 11:55:03 2003 From: vaklam at comcast.net (Melissa Gay) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 13:55:03 -0500 Subject: offworld jhereg In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The picture, by Stephen Hickman, was done as the t-shirt design for Chattacon 2003 back in January, where he was the Artist Guest of Honor. I own one. The Offworld Designs version has removed the Chattacon reference and is just using the Jhereg image. On my shirt, it says, "Copyright Stephen Hickman 2003", so I would hope the Offworlds people got Mr. Hickman's permission and paid him appropriately for the privilege. Are they a reputable company? -- Melissa http://www.melissagay.com >On Sun, 1 Jun 2003, Beth Friedman wrote: >> In our previous episode at 01:33 AM 6/1/03, Arin Komins wrote: >> >For NyteMuse, and anyone else who wants to see the shirt: >> > >> >http://www.offworlddesigns.com/store/index.html?target=Whatzhs_Newzv.html >> >> They can call it a jhereg, or a smeerp for that matter, but it sure doesn't >> look like any jhereg described in the books. > >No, but it IS pretty darn close to the pic on the cover of _Dragon_ > >****** >NyteMuse > >"Call her life unnatural, feel her undead breath. >Color her black for sorcery, color her gray for death." >AIM: NyteMuse139 / ICQ: #21966269 (NyteMuse) >MSN: NyteMuse / Yahoo!ID: NyteMuse >http://www.crowfire.com -- From bjf at wavefront.com Mon Jun 2 11:54:36 2003 From: bjf at wavefront.com (Beth Friedman) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 13:54:36 -0500 Subject: offworld jhereg In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030602135414.04b1e1f0@shell.visi.com> In our previous episode at 01:55 PM 6/2/03, Melissa Gay wrote: >The picture, by Stephen Hickman, was done as the t-shirt design for >Chattacon 2003 back in January, where he was the Artist Guest of Honor. I >own one. The Offworld Designs version has removed the Chattacon reference >and is just using the Jhereg image. > >On my shirt, it says, "Copyright Stephen Hickman 2003", so I would hope >the Offworlds people got Mr. Hickman's permission and paid him >appropriately for the privilege. Are they a reputable company? Yes. We've used them for Minicon T-shirts for several years. -- Beth Friedman / bjf at wavefront.com There are 10 types of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those who don't. From ikep at umbc.edu Mon Jun 2 14:59:06 2003 From: ikep at umbc.edu (Ike Porter) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:59:06 -0400 Subject: series advice, was RE: Wear Brust on your Chest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jun 2003, Casey Rousseau wrote: > Mia wrote: > > There's a picture??? > > > > No, the *series* tanked. The last book out has Dune Messiah syndrome. > > It's clogged with universe-building and committee meetings and nasty > > people pinching the bridges of their noses. I'm sure there's a novel I > > want to read in there *somewhere*, but I'm blessed if I've got the time > > and energy to go digging it out! > > > > Mia > > I haven't made it through yet either. I got in about 50 or 60 pages, but > life interfered. As it happens, I'm now in the middle of reading Hornblower > and having a rollicking good time of it. Something I've always wanted to see was a site where people could advise other readers when to stop reading a series. There are some books out there that are really good, but maybe don't get read because they morph into drek *coughRAMAcough*. Maybe I'll start working on that in my CST*. --Brother Ike From Gaertk at aol.com Mon Jun 2 17:33:38 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 20:33:38 -0400 Subject: series advice, was RE: Wear Brust on your Chest Message-ID: <7145258B.6E174819.00048EA6@aol.com> Ike Porter writes: > Something I've always wanted to see was a site where people > could advise other readers when to stop reading a series. > There are some books out there that are really good, but > maybe don't get read because they morph into drek > *coughRAMAcough*. Maybe I'll start working on that in my > CST*. Many times there are warning signs, though most readers are optimists and so don't heed them: 1) Sequel written by or co-written with someone else (Rama, Foundation). 2) Time since previous books is at least a decade longer than previous gaps (Foundation). 3) Nothing happened in previous book[s] (Wheel of Time). 4) In the last book, the insanely powerful protaganist was still whining about not being able to do anything (Dune). (Sorry, couldn't think of anything better for Dune.) 5) Author keeps writing the same book over and over (Xanth, Valdemar). You can also have Google search rec.arts.sf.written for "brain eater" (you'll get tons of hits), "worst sequels", and "worst ending to a series". --KG From zizban at adelphia.net Mon Jun 2 17:48:53 2003 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 20:48:53 -0400 Subject: series advice, was RE: Wear Brust on your Chest In-Reply-To: <7145258B.6E174819.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <264C224D-955D-11D7-AEA1-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> On Monday, June 2, 2003, at 08:33 PM, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > Ike Porter writes: > >> Something I've always wanted to see was a site where people >> could advise other readers when to stop reading a series. >> There are some books out there that are really good, but >> maybe don't get read because they morph into drek >> *coughRAMAcough*. Maybe I'll start working on that in my >> CST*. > > Many times there are warning signs, though most readers are > optimists and so don't heed them: > > 1) Sequel written by or co-written with someone else (Rama, > Foundation). or a series "Presented By..." > 2) Time since previous books is at least a decade longer than > previous gaps (Foundation). Dune was guilty of this as well. As was The Black Company, iirc. > > 3) Nothing happened in previous book[s] (Wheel of Time). Say it, brother! > > 4) In the last book, the insanely powerful protaganist was > still whining about not being able to do anything (Dune). > (Sorry, couldn't think of anything better for Dune.) Wheel of Time was good for this as well, as well Incarnation of Immortality by Piers Anthony. > > 5) Author keeps writing the same book over and over (Xanth, > Valdemar). Black Company, Shannara > Also "When The Author Doesn't Know When To Stop" Piers Anthony is a good example of this, as is Mercedes Lackey --- "If they've already seen your best they can do without the rest, don't ya know."---James McMutry From frank at exit.com Mon Jun 2 18:12:01 2003 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 18:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: series advice, was RE: Wear Brust on your Chest In-Reply-To: <264C224D-955D-11D7-AEA1-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <200306030112.h531C1eg022031@realtime.exit.com> Chris Turkel wrote: > On Monday, June 2, 2003, at 08:33 PM, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > 5) Author keeps writing the same book over and over (Xanth, > > Valdemar). > Black Company, Shannara While I'll give you Sha-na-na, I don't think the Black Company books quite qualify. The characters came and went and even the viewpoint changed. I actually had a bit of a hard time when Croaker was no longer the viewpoint character, sinced I enjoyed the first trilogy so much. I found the whole series very enjoyable and the ending was, to me at least, moving. This is actually a bit of a coincidence, since while I'm without a job I'm rereading the series. I finished _The Silver Spike_ (number four) today and will start on _Shadow Games_ shortly. One author who _did_ write the same book over and over (and over and over and over ...) was Jack Chalker. I stopped reading him in the mid-80's when I could no longer ignore the fact that every book was the same, down to the characters and details of the plot. The man seemed to have a thing for male- female transformations, too. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 01:01:27 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 08:01:27 +0000 Subject: Athyra and Dragon Message-ID: Hi, I want to ask you two questions about Athyra, but I am still reading it, so I beg you that if you cannot answer it without spoil the book remain silent. In page 82 of The Book Of Athyra Vlad says something that have puzzled me. When Savn says that he should like be in the army, Vlad answers "I wouldn't know, myself. I've never been in the army". Well, If I'm not wrong Vald has been in the Morrolan's army in Dragon, hasn't he? I guess that you have discussed it before but I haven't found it in the archives of Dragaera homepage, so anyone can give me a short explanation? Finally, in page 95 Savn asks himself "Why aren't I afraid? Excuse me for my poor english but I do not remember reading this grammatic construction before: what's its purpose? there is any kind of enphasis or stress which I do not catch? Thanks. Iv?n. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Compras: Veinte tiendas personales abiertas todo el d?a. http://www.msn.es/compras/ From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Jun 3 03:19:07 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 03:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Athyra (no Chapter 9+ spoilers) and Dragon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 2003, Iv?n Rebollo wrote: > In page 82 of The Book Of Athyra Vlad says something that have puzzled me. > When Savn says that he should like be in the army, Vlad answers "I wouldn't > know, myself. I've never been in the army". > > Well, If I'm not wrong Vald has been in the Morrolan's army in Dragon, > hasn't he? This was discussed recently. The lawerly answer: Vlad doesn't consider himself to have been in the army in a formal sense (he didn't have a rank I think, he didn't formally enlist, he didn't really follow a command structure) or in any sense that would correspond to what Savn means by being in the army. Or he doesn't want to encourage Savn by making it seem a romantic or badass thing to do. - I suspect Vlad smiles [bottom of page 90 in the original edition] because of an internal conversation along the lines of: "Check it out, Loioish, this poor Teckla kid thinks it would be fun to sign up to be fed to Blackwand." "Gee boss, waste of a teckla." The authoritative (literally) answer: Vlad doesn't feel like getting into a long discussion about his history with a Dragraeran/Teckla/child. Perhaps SKZB would say Vlad smiles because he finds himself lying, which is against his code, or perhaps because he was about to not lie, which is against his better judgement. > Finally, in page 95 Savn asks himself "Why aren't I afraid?" Excuse me > for my poor english but I do not remember reading this grammatic > construction before: what's its purpose? there is any kind of enphasis > or stress which I do not catch? Thanks. I was going to say "because someone evil slipped you an altered version of the text" but there on page 106 of my edition is the clunker you quote. You are technically correct, but plenty of educated English speakers say this. "Am I not?" is a common construction, but English wants to contract it to "amn't", which isn't English (in America or Britain anyway), or "aint", which is a notorious word considered an indicator of low socio-economic status. "Aren't" doesn't make sense but is "colloquially acceptable and indeed almost universal" (Fowler's Modern English Usage, 2nd Ed., under "Be 7"). I would speculate that Savn's usage of this form shows that he is educated enough to avoid "aint" but not sophisticated enough to shudder at "aren't", as Vlad would. I personally would write (and for that matter say) "I wonder why I'm not afraid". For the sake of completeness, I note that if you put "aren't" and "grammar" into google you'll get a few thousand hits, a number of which will give you a more sophisticated answer than the above and most of which are probably, as we like to say in this anti-statist (when the state's helping the other guy) nation, good enough for government work. - Philip From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 03:40:42 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 10:40:42 +0000 Subject: Athyra (no Chapter 9+ spoilers) and Dragon Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > >This was discussed recently. The lawerly answer: Vlad doesn't consider >himself to have been in the army in a formal sense (he didn't have a rank >I think, he didn't formally enlist, he didn't really follow a command >structure) or in any sense that would correspond to what Savn means by >being in the army. Or he doesn't want to encourage Savn by making it >seem a romantic or badass thing to do. - I suspect Vlad smiles >[bottom of page 90 in the original edition] because of an internal >conversation along the lines of: > "Check it out, Loioish, this poor Teckla kid thinks it would be >fun to sign up to be fed to Blackwand." > "Gee boss, waste of a teckla." > >The authoritative (literally) answer: Vlad doesn't feel like getting into >a long discussion about his history with a Dragraeran/Teckla/child. >Perhaps SKZB would say Vlad smiles because he finds himself lying, >which is against his code, or perhaps because he was about to not lie, >which is against his better judgement. Sincerelly, I prefer the first one. I think he explains many things to Savn but does not care to stop explanations when he wants. > > Finally, in page 95 Savn asks himself "Why aren't I afraid?" Excuse me > > for my poor english but I do not remember reading this grammatic > > construction before: what's its purpose? there is any kind of enphasis > > or stress which I do not catch? Thanks. > >I was going to say "because someone evil slipped you an altered version of >the text" but there on page 106 of my edition is the clunker you quote. >You are technically correct, but plenty of educated English speakers say >this. "Am I not?" is a common construction, but English wants to contract >it to "amn't", which isn't English (in America or Britain anyway), or >"aint", which is a notorious word considered an indicator of low >socio-economic status. "Aren't" doesn't make sense but is "colloquially >acceptable and indeed almost universal" (Fowler's Modern English Usage, >2nd Ed., under "Be 7"). I would speculate that Savn's usage of this form >shows that he is educated enough to avoid "aint" but not sophisticated >enough to shudder at "aren't", as Vlad would. I personally would write >(and for that matter say) "I wonder why I'm not afraid". There is anything to say but THANK YOU VERY MUCH for your answer. _________________________________________________________________ Localiza y ponte en contacto con tus antiguos compa?eros de clase en MSN Compa?eros. http://mipasado.msn.es/ From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Jun 3 03:55:52 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 03:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Athyra (no Chapter 9+ spoilers) and Dragon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 2003, Iv?lawyerly Rebollo wrote: > On Tue, 3 Jun 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > > >This was discussed recently. The lawyerly answer... > > > >The authoritative (literally) answer: Vlad doesn't feel like getting into > >a long discussion about his history with a Dragraeran/Teckla/child. > > Sincerelly, I prefer the first one. I think he explains many things to Savn > but does not care to stop explanations when he wants. Not sure if you're actually disagreeing with SKZB, but if you feel strongly about the (now correctly spelled - should have gone with "physicistly" anyway) first option, and you're not finished reading the book, you can probably still take it back, get a refund, and send that refund to my paypal account... From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 04:18:04 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 11:18:04 +0000 Subject: Athyra (no Chapter 9+ spoilers) and Dragon Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > >On Tue, 3 Jun 2003, Iv?lawyerly Rebollo wrote: In fact it is right, I am a lawyer... > > > On Tue, 3 Jun 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > > >This was discussed recently. The lawyerly answer... > > > > > >The authoritative (literally) answer: Vlad doesn't feel like getting >into > > >a long discussion about his history with a Dragraeran/Teckla/child. > > > > Sincerelly, I prefer the first one. I think he explains many things to >Savn > > but does not care to stop explanations when he wants. > >Not sure if you're actually disagreeing with SKZB, What's the matter to disagree with SKZB???? He just wrote the story: Dear Mr. Burst, if you need that I explain you your whole work, please do not hesitate to contact me. Yours faithfully, Iv?n. >but if you feel >strongly about the (now correctly spelled - should have gone with >"physicistly" anyway) first option, and you're not finished reading the >book, you can probably still take it back, get a refund, and send that >refund to my paypal account... Eeeeh.... Thank you for your suggestion, I will take it into account. _________________________________________________________________ Accede al romance onine. Descubre gente que busca a otra gente en MSN Amor & Amistad. http://match.msn.es/ From feaelin at kemenel.org Tue Jun 3 06:16:33 2003 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Iain E. Davis) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 08:16:33 -0500 Subject: series advice, was RE: Wear Brust on your Chest In-Reply-To: <200306030112.h531C1eg022031@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <000801c329d2$5b10e250$6501a8c0@Khaavren> > One author who _did_ write the same book over and over (and > over and over and over ...) was Jack Chalker. I stopped > reading him in the mid-80's when I could no longer ignore the > fact that every book was the same, down to the characters and > details of the plot. The man seemed to have a thing for > male- female transformations, too. You too? I really liked some of his books initially, and then it all got so old. I think mostly I was really taken with the basic ideas of the Well World books, but tired of the actual stories pretty quickly. :). And he had a thing for transformation, in general, it seemed like. This that or the other being transformed in to this other that or the other. :) From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Jun 3 06:18:47 2003 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 09:18:47 -0400 Subject: series advice, was RE: Wear Brust on your Chest In-Reply-To: <000801c329d2$5b10e250$6501a8c0@Khaavren> Message-ID: On Tuesday, June 3, 2003, at 09:16 AM, Iain E. Davis wrote: >> One author who _did_ write the same book over and over (and >> over and over and over ...) was Jack Chalker. I stopped >> reading him in the mid-80's when I could no longer ignore the >> fact that every book was the same, down to the characters and >> details of the plot. The man seemed to have a thing for >> male- female transformations, too. > > You too? I really liked some of his books initially, and then it all > got so > old. I think mostly I was really taken with the basic ideas of the > Well > World books, but tired of the actual stories pretty quickly. :). > > And he had a thing for transformation, in general, it seemed like. > This > that or the other being transformed in to this other that or the > other. :) Yes, he did. I never really thought about it before now. The only series I read of his I enjoyed was the Spirits Of Flux and Anchor, in my opinion, his best series and one where he actually quit while he ahead. --- "Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself (I am large, I contain multitudes)."--Walt Whitman From feaelin at kemenel.org Tue Jun 3 06:38:48 2003 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Iain E. Davis) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 08:38:48 -0500 Subject: What's New in Cracks and Shards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000b01c329d5$76bd5bc0$6501a8c0@Khaavren> > May 2003: > > I'm starting to implement Cascading Style Sheets, in hopes > it'll make this hobby a little easier for me, make the site > look more uniform (bit by bit), and give me practice for one > part of my work. Unfortunately, even some of the simple > features of CSS are not supported by some of the major > browsers, but of course. (I use primarily MS Internet > Explorer, but I also test with Netscape and Mozilla. At the > moment Netscape seems to be the worst in this regard.) Or supported but badly. I suggest finding one or two "compatibility" charts if you end up fighting with CSS too much. Hmm. Appears the one I had bookmarked no longer exists, but here is another: http://www.westciv.com/style_master/academy/browser_support/basic_concepts.h tml I can't attest to its accuracy, having not used that one before. Also watch out for "oops, it's not working because I didn't do it _exactly_ right", occasionally I've thought a given browser (usually netscape) didn't support the CSS feature I was wanting to use, but it turned out I had sloppy syntax, which IE ignored, but Netscape refused to tolerate. :) Iain ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- "To live is to scrounge, taking what you can in order to survive. So, since living is scrounging, the result of our efforts is to amass a pile of rubbish." - Chuang Tzu/Zhuangzi, China, 4th Century BCE From feaelin at kemenel.org Tue Jun 3 06:51:50 2003 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Iain E. Davis) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 08:51:50 -0500 Subject: Book of Athyra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000c01c329d7$4a1196c0$6501a8c0@Khaavren> > Which just goes to show again that tastes vary. I enjoyed seeing Vlad > through Savn's eyes and mind. We'd never seen Vlad from anyone else's > point of view before (unless you count Kelly, Paresh, et > al.'s reactions > to him, as reported by Vlad himself), and this POV was very different > from Vlad's and those of anyone else who'd met him. Additionally, I think it helps dodge the trap that a series to an author, where the books starting becoming clones of previous books... I personally enjoy the fact that most of the books that he's written is "presented" (is that the right word?) in a different way. Whether it is telling the story through an unexpected set of eyes (Orca, Athyra, Agyar) or the non-linear storytelling (Dragon), it keeps the stories from simply being "old hat" as it were. :) From glas at larp.com Tue Jun 3 07:12:39 2003 From: glas at larp.com (Glas) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 10:12:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Why Aren't I Afraid? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <39015.155.203.40.9.1054649559.squirrel@www.larp.com> >> Finally, in page 95 Savn asks himself "Why aren't I afraid?" Excuse > indicator of low socio-economic status. "Aren't" doesn't make sense > but is "colloquially acceptable and indeed almost universal" (Fowler's > Modern English Usage, 2nd Ed., under "Be 7"). I would speculate that Hmm... Were I a philologist, I might check to see if the use of are in "Why aren't I afraid?" is a remnant of the English subjunctive (c.f., 'If I were afraid' vs. 'I was afraid'). But I'm not; I'm just an old biologist and environmental/safety guy. ;) Having said that I, I want to say that I love this list! After _Phoenix Guard,_ the Paarfi narratives didn't appeal to me until I read _Pathos of Dead_... at which I went back and re-read _Phoenix Guard,_ _500 Years After,_ _Brokedown Palace,_ and all of the Vlad novels. So this list gives me something to do while I jones for another SKZB work. ;) - Glas -- Glas * glas at larp.com http://martinhesselius.livejournal.com From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Jun 3 07:35:26 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 03 Jun 2003 09:35:26 -0500 Subject: What's New in Cracks and Shards In-Reply-To: <000b01c329d5$76bd5bc0$6501a8c0@Khaavren> References: <000b01c329d5$76bd5bc0$6501a8c0@Khaavren> Message-ID: "Iain E. Davis" writes: > > May 2003: > > > > I'm starting to implement Cascading Style Sheets, in hopes > > it'll make this hobby a little easier for me, make the site > > look more uniform (bit by bit), and give me practice for one > > part of my work. Unfortunately, even some of the simple > > features of CSS are not supported by some of the major > > browsers, but of course. (I use primarily MS Internet > > Explorer, but I also test with Netscape and Mozilla. At the > > moment Netscape seems to be the worst in this regard.) > > Or supported but badly. I suggest finding one or two "compatibility" charts > if you end up fighting with CSS too much. Hmm. Appears the one I had > bookmarked no longer exists, but here is another: Netscape *4* is pretty much hopeless with CSS. Luckily it's also old and fairly rare. More recent Netscape, Mozilla, and even IE are pretty good. And of course Opera is good. So I'm using CSS pretty freely at this point. > Also watch out for "oops, it's not working because I didn't do it _exactly_ > right", occasionally I've thought a given browser (usually netscape) didn't > support the CSS feature I was wanting to use, but it turned out I had sloppy > syntax, which IE ignored, but Netscape refused to tolerate. :) Yes, this is a good point. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera mailing lists: From akomins at midway.uchicago.edu Tue Jun 3 07:44:35 2003 From: akomins at midway.uchicago.edu (Arin Komins) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 09:44:35 -0500 (CDT) Subject: series advice, was RE: Wear Brust on your Chest In-Reply-To: <000801c329d2$5b10e250$6501a8c0@Khaavren> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 2003, Iain E. Davis wrote: :Subject: RE: series advice, was RE: Wear Brust on your Chest :> One author who _did_ write the same book over and over (and :> over and over and over ...) was Jack Chalker. I stopped :> reading him in the mid-80's when I could no longer ignore the :> fact that every book was the same, down to the characters and :> details of the plot. The man seemed to have a thing for :> male- female transformations, too. : :You too? I really liked some of his books initially, and then it all got so :old. I think mostly I was really taken with the basic ideas of the Well :World books, but tired of the actual stories pretty quickly. :). : :And he had a thing for transformation, in general, it seemed like. This :that or the other being transformed in to this other that or the other. :) He particularly had a think for what happens to gender identity when you mix and match body parts. If you stopped reading him with Well World, you probably missed his best work to date (imho), the Wonderland Gambit books: The Cybernetic Walrus The March Hare Network The Hot-Wired Dodo Very "different" in feel for him. Of course, almost everything he's done since then has been crap, but ymmv. Arin -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Arin Komins akomins at uchicago.edu Manager of Web Systems Architecture University of Chicago/ENSS/NSIT tel: (773)834-4087 1155 E. 60th St. #302B Chicago, IL 60637 fax: (773)702-0559 ------------------------------------------------------------------ From warlord at dragon.com Tue Jun 3 08:05:35 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 11:05:35 -0400 Subject: Book of Athyra In-Reply-To: <000c01c329d7$4a1196c0$6501a8c0@Khaavren> Message-ID: > > Which just goes to show again that tastes vary. I enjoyed seeing Vlad > > through Savn's eyes and mind. We'd never seen Vlad from anyone else's > > point of view before (unless you count Kelly, Paresh, et > > al.'s reactions > > to him, as reported by Vlad himself), and this POV was very different > > from Vlad's and those of anyone else who'd met him. > > Additionally, I think it helps dodge the trap that a series to an author, > where the books starting becoming clones of previous books... > > I personally enjoy the fact that most of the books that he's written is > "presented" (is that the right word?) in a different way. Whether it is > telling the story through an unexpected set of eyes (Orca, > Athyra, Agyar) or > the non-linear storytelling (Dragon), it keeps the stories from > simply being > "old hat" as it were. :) > Someone once argued the opinion that if you are comfortable reading a piece of material, then you are not learning anything. If you proceed into a work, attempting to enjoy it as the author has written it, then you may not be beyond hope. A flexible mind is a thing of beauty. People who are afraid to think from a different direction might as well just start mooing. In my opinion, this is why an "acquired taste" is more likely to be a sophisticated one, especially if you did not entirely agree with it before you started to consider it. W "I have a loaded soapbox right here, and I'm NOT afraid to use it." From casey at trinityhartford.org Tue Jun 3 08:54:41 2003 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 11:54:41 -0400 Subject: Book of Athyra In-Reply-To: <000c01c329d7$4a1196c0$6501a8c0@Khaavren> Message-ID: Iain E. Davis wrote: > I personally enjoy the fact that most of the books that he's written is > "presented" (is that the right word?) in a different way. Whether it is > telling the story through an unexpected set of eyes (Orca, Athyra, Agyar) > or the non-linear storytelling (Dragon), it keeps the stories from > simply being "old hat" as it were. :) To quote the author (re: Yendi on http://www.dreamcafe.com/books.html) "It was such a relief to get back to Vlad ... that I didn't pay enough attention to what I was doing--I just wrote a straight-ahead story with nothing much else to it. That's fine, in my opinion, if it's a Really Good Story. But Yendi is only an okay story." 'Course, I've always liked _Yendi_, especially the openning monologue, so straight-ahead narrative can work, and even for Steve, but yes, more complex presentations can offer many more opportunities for avoiding old-hatness. Casey From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Jun 3 08:54:18 2003 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 11:54:18 -0400 Subject: Book of Athyra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tuesday, June 3, 2003, at 11:54 AM, Casey Rousseau wrote: > Iain E. Davis wrote: >> I personally enjoy the fact that most of the books that he's written >> is >> "presented" (is that the right word?) in a different way. Whether it >> is >> telling the story through an unexpected set of eyes (Orca, Athyra, >> Agyar) >> or the non-linear storytelling (Dragon), it keeps the stories from >> simply being "old hat" as it were. :) > > To quote the author (re: Yendi on http://www.dreamcafe.com/books.html) > > "It was such a relief to get back to Vlad ... that I didn't pay enough > attention to what I was doing--I just wrote a straight-ahead story with > nothing much else to it. That's fine, in my opinion, if it's a Really > Good > Story. But Yendi is only an okay story." > > 'Course, I've always liked _Yendi_, especially the openning monologue, > so > straight-ahead narrative can work, and even for Steve, but yes, more > complex > presentations can offer many more opportunities for avoiding > old-hatness. Steve likes to bash Yendi but I enjoyed it. Its one of those sit back and enjoy books, with little brainpower required (like a good Horseclans book). ------ "...Wouldn't it be worse if life were fair, and everything bad that happens to us happens because we deserve it?" -Marcus Cole, Babylon 5. From pgranzeau at cox.net Tue Jun 3 09:04:32 2003 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 11:04:32 -0500 Subject: Athyra and Dragon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030603105710.01dac6a0@pop.east.cox.net> At 03:01 06/03/2003, Iv?n Rebollo wrote: >Finally, in page 95 Savn asks himself "Why aren't I afraid? Excuse me for >my poor english but I do not remember reading this grammatic construction >before: what's its purpose? there is any kind of enphasis or stress which >I do not catch? It's ungrammatical, but common. The formal construction is "Am I not?". English speakers like to shorten any combination of "to be" and "not". This would lead to "Amn't", which is nearly unpronounceable, and probably hasn't seen any use since Jane Austen used it. At one time, "Ain't I?" was used, even by the educated, but that led to "I ain't" instead of "I'm not", the proper contraction, and the schoolmarms have all but erased "ain't" from the English language. Personally, I might use "'m I not?" ("Why'm I not afraid?), but that, too, isn't commonly used. So we are stuck with the ungrammatical "Aren't I?" construction. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Jun 3 14:29:38 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 17:29:38 -0400 Subject: Book of Athyra Message-ID: <4600F0FB.661386C9.00048EA6@aol.com> "Warlord" writes: > Someone once argued the opinion that if you are comfortable > reading a piece of material, then you are not learning > anything. I have to disagree. While it may take effort to fully grasp the concepts and work out the consequnces, understanding what the author is trying to say (ie, actually reading) should be effortless. Look at the non-fiction of Asimov or Martin Gardner's essays; simple, clear, very easy to understand, even when discussing relativity or four-dimensional topologies. > In my opinion, this is why an "acquired taste" is more > likely to be a sophisticated one, especially if you did not > entirely agree with it before you started to consider it. If I have to "acquire a taste" for something to be considered sophisticated, then count me out. --KG From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Jun 3 16:50:41 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 16:50:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Book of Athyra In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 2003, Chris Turkel wrote: > > On Tuesday, June 3, 2003, at 11:54 AM, Casey Rousseau wrote: > > > Iain E. Davis wrote: >> 'Course, I've always liked _Yendi_, especially the openning monologue, >> so straight-ahead narrative can work, and even for Steve, but yes, more >> complex presentations can offer many more opportunities for avoiding >> old-hatness. > > Steve likes to bash Yendi but I enjoyed it. Its one of those sit back > and enjoy books, with little brainpower required (like a good > Horseclans book). Fwiw, I thought that _Yendi_ didn't need any bells and whistles - it can apparently be read mindlessly, but if one tries to make sense of the plot as one goes along one gets more mental stimulation than following the plot of _Taltos_ or _Dragon_. In fact, imho the multi-linear style of _T_ and _D_ adds little. After a few chapters of _D_ I began to get annoyed that Vlad was going to the trouble of giving us tiny chunks of the late-battle story for no obvious reason. I did like the interludes about the future events related to the story. But the seventeen "Ok, that's almost a page of the conclusion, how are we getting back to the main plot now?" just got on my nerves. One of the things I read SKZB for is his ability to pull you along (I think this is what Zelazny meant with "He moves fast") - one of Dumas's virtues - and the multiple threads got in the way for me - more author-imposed than plot-inspired. From mam at theworld.com Tue Jun 3 17:17:15 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 20:17:15 -0400 Subject: Wear Brust on your Chest In-Reply-To: <3EDB84C3.4040905@attbi.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jun 2003, Mia McDavid wrote [about the Honor Harrington series]: #No, the *series* tanked. The last book out has Dune Messiah syndrome. # It's clogged with universe-building and committee meetings and nasty #people pinching the bridges of their noses. I'm sure there's a novel I #want to read in there *somewhere*, but I'm blessed if I've got the time #and energy to go digging it out! Which one is that? I'm working my way through the CD at the moment. -- Mark M. From mam at theworld.com Tue Jun 3 17:21:48 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 20:21:48 -0400 Subject: series advice, was RE: Wear Brust on your Chest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jun 2003, Ike Porter wrote: #Something I've always wanted to see was a site where people could advise #other readers when to stop reading a series. There are some books out #there that are really good, but maybe don't get read because they morph #into drek *coughRAMAcough*. Maybe I'll start working on that in my CST*. I was going to ask for the missing footnote, but as I was deleting the quotes it hit me: CST = copious spare time. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Tue Jun 3 19:25:48 2003 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 21:25:48 -0500 Subject: Wear Brust on your Chest References: Message-ID: <3EDD58AC.3010901@attbi.com> It's the big fat one the CD *came* in; I've even repressed the title. The last one. The new one. The huge one. Mia From sraun at fireopal.org Wed Jun 4 04:49:24 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 06:49:24 -0500 Subject: Wear Brust on your Chest In-Reply-To: <3EDD58AC.3010901@attbi.com> References: <3EDD58AC.3010901@attbi.com> Message-ID: <20030604114924.GA25162@fireopal.org> On Tue, Jun 03, 2003 at 09:25:48PM -0500, Mia McDavid wrote: > It's the big fat one the CD *came* in; I've even repressed the title. > The last one. The new one. The huge one. Ashes of Victory or War of Honor - I've forgotten which one the CD came in. It isn't the most recent Honor Universe book anymore - there's another short story collection out. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Wed Jun 4 05:51:10 2003 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 07:51:10 -0500 Subject: Wear Brust on your Chest References: <3EDD58AC.3010901@attbi.com> <20030604114924.GA25162@fireopal.org> Message-ID: <3EDDEB3E.1000302@attbi.com> War of Honor, then. Ashes of Victory was still readable, though the rot had set in. Don't get me wrong, I *like* the Honorverse short stories. However, one of my gripes with War of Honor was that he dragged in the characters and issues from one of the short stories, to do God knows what with, thereby stuffing an overly fat and unfocused work even fatter. Mia From feaelin at kemenel.org Wed Jun 4 08:51:28 2003 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Iain E. Davis) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 10:51:28 -0500 Subject: Book of Athyra In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003b01c32ab1$2b03e780$6501a8c0@Khaavren> > From: Warlord [mailto:warlord at dragon.com] > Someone once argued the opinion that if you are comfortable reading > a piece of material, then you are not learning anything. I'd probably agree with that. However...one doesn't always want to _learn_ something. There is a difference between "escape entertainment" and "entertained intelluctually" I think. :) > In my opinion, this is why an "acquired taste" is more likely > to be a sophisticated one, especially if you did not entirely > agree with it before you started to consider it. In moderation, I'd say this is true. There are _some_ things one shouldn't (or possibly can't) acquire a taste for...:). For me, I like sprinklings of new mixed with a steady diet of the familiar. :). If we were talking about food, I wouldn't mind a new dish once in a while, but something new every day, bleah. :). But then, I'm content if I had something like meat & potatoes every day...:) From ikep at umbc.edu Wed Jun 4 10:16:38 2003 From: ikep at umbc.edu (Ike Porter) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 13:16:38 -0400 Subject: series advice, was RE: Wear Brust on your Chest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Mon, 2 Jun 2003, Ike Porter wrote: > > #Something I've always wanted to see was a site where people could advise > #other readers when to stop reading a series. There are some books out > #there that are really good, but maybe don't get read because they morph > #into drek *coughRAMAcough*. Maybe I'll start working on that in my CST*. > > I was going to ask for the missing footnote, but as I was deleting the > quotes it hit me: CST = copious spare time. Correct, and negative bonus points to me for leaving a dangly about. Apologies! --Brother Ike From rblackstock at ersgroup.com Wed Jun 4 10:22:15 2003 From: rblackstock at ersgroup.com (BLACKSTOCK, ROB) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 13:22:15 -0400 Subject: series advice Message-ID: When to stop reading a series? The "Casca" series by Barry Sadler. Good story... Very original... but when you get around volume 15 (out of 23) it becomes pretty clear that the muse has abandoned the author. On the other hand, I (and many others) continued to buy them. Make of that what you will. -----Original Message----- From: Ike Porter [mailto:ikep at umbc.edu] Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 1:17 PM To: Mark A Mandel Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: series advice, was RE: Wear Brust on your Chest On Tue, 3 Jun 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Mon, 2 Jun 2003, Ike Porter wrote: > > #Something I've always wanted to see was a site where people could > advise #other readers when to stop reading a series. There are some > books out #there that are really good, but maybe don't get read > because they morph #into drek *coughRAMAcough*. Maybe I'll start > working on that in my CST*. > > I was going to ask for the missing footnote, but as I was deleting the > quotes it hit me: CST = copious spare time. Correct, and negative bonus points to me for leaving a dangly about. Apologies! --Brother Ike From mam at theworld.com Wed Jun 4 10:51:24 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 13:51:24 -0400 Subject: Wear Brust on your Chest In-Reply-To: <20030604114924.GA25162@fireopal.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jun 2003, Scott Raun wrote: #Ashes of Victory or War of Honor - I've forgotten which one the CD #came in. It isn't the most recent Honor Universe book anymore - #there's another short story collection out. Ashes is a novel on the disc; I think WarOH is too. I'm on the next-to-last or 3rd-last item in the Honorverse listing on the disc (there are many other texts on it, as well as Echo's Children's three Honor filks!!). The title I'm in now is a s.s. collection, one by Weber and 1-2 by others; the previous was likewise. I think this is Worlds of Honor and the previous was More than Honor. -- Mark M. From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Wed Jun 4 12:02:38 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 19:02:38 +0000 Subject: Book of Athyra Message-ID: >From: "Iain E. Davis" > > > From: Warlord [mailto:warlord at dragon.com] > > > Someone once argued the opinion that if you are comfortable reading > > a piece of material, then you are not learning anything. > >I'd probably agree with that. However...one doesn't always want to _learn_ >something. There is a difference between "escape entertainment" and >"entertained intelluctually" I think. :) I have always thought that I can learn from a good book and that I will learnt without noticing it or making any effort with a VERY good book. Gaert's example of Asimov is really good. > > In my opinion, this is why an "acquired taste" is more likely > > to be a sophisticated one, especially if you did not entirely > > agree with it before you started to consider it. > >In moderation, I'd say this is true. There are _some_ things one shouldn't >(or possibly can't) acquire a taste for...:). > >For me, I like sprinklings of new mixed with a steady diet of the familiar. >:). If we were talking about food, I wouldn't mind a new dish once in a >while, but something new every day, bleah. :). But then, I'm content if I >had something like meat & potatoes every day...:) De: Gaertk at aol.com (in order to include the other position) >If I have to "acquire a taste" for something to be considered >sophisticated, then count me out. Here I agree with Ian. In Spain we use to say that Don Quixote is read in different ways according to reader's age: childs fall sleep, teenagers laugh, young adults enjoy it and senior adults nod to it. _________________________________________________________________ Inf?rmate sobre las ?ltimas noticias en MSN Actualidad. http://www.msn.es/Actualidad/ From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Wed Jun 4 13:20:37 2003 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 13:20:37 -0700 Subject: Wear Brust on your Chest Message-ID: > >#Ashes of Victory or War of Honor - I've forgotten which one the CD >#came in. It isn't the most recent Honor Universe book anymore - >#there's another short story collection out. > >Ashes is a novel on the disc; I think WarOH is too. I'm on the >next-to-last or 3rd-last item in the Honorverse listing on the disc >(there are many other texts on it, as well as Echo's Children's three >Honor filks!!). The title I'm in now is a s.s. collection, one by Weber >and 1-2 by others; the previous was likewise. I think this is Worlds of >Honor and the previous was More than Honor. > >-- Mark M. > Actually, War of Honor is the last long novel, but Service of the Sword is the latest short story collection and came out several months ago. James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From TimN at rcn.com Wed Jun 4 18:13:07 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 21:13:07 -0400 Subject: Chocolate on Dragaera? Message-ID: <000d01c32aff$a03598c0$d916fea9@ananda> There's vanilla, garlic, onions, lots of spices, peppers, etc. However, I cannot for the life of me recall if chocolate is mentioned anywhere! Help, help! - Tim From davids at kithrup.com Wed Jun 4 18:34:38 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 18:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Chocolate on Dragaera? In-Reply-To: <000d01c32aff$a03598c0$d916fea9@ananda> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jun 2003, Timothy Nelson wrote: >There's vanilla, garlic, onions, lots of spices, peppers, etc. > >However, I cannot for the life of me recall if chocolate is mentioned >anywhere! Well, some quick research indicates that vanilla is a New World plant. So if they have vanilla, they almost certainly have chocolate as well. Unless it was all wiped out by some evil, terrible, fungus or mold. From zarkon at illrepute.org Thu Jun 5 06:53:53 2003 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 09:53:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Asimov (was: Book of Athyra) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jun 2003, Iv?n Rebollo wrote: @> >I'd probably agree with that. However...one doesn't always want to _learn_ @> >something. There is a difference between "escape entertainment" and @> >"entertained intelluctually" I think. :) @> @> I have always thought that I can learn from a good book and that I will @> learnt without noticing it or making any effort with a VERY good book. @> Gaert's example of Asimov is really good. Tangentally: I've been reading Asimov's Book of Facts. (No, I don't know why. I suspect many of them are urban legends, and some are out of date (the book was published in the late seventies).) This one struck me as somewhat appropos for this list. ----- The 19th-century mathematician Janos Bolyai, who generally shares the credit for having discovered non-Euclidean geometry, specialized in the violin and the dueling sword, in the true tradition of the Hungarian aristocrat. He once fenced with 13 swordsmen, one after the other, vanquishing them all and playing the violin between bouts. Bolyai gave up work in mathematics when he felt embarassment and humiliation at the disclosure that a little earlier Karl Friedrich Gauss (1777-1835), the famous German mathematician and astronomer, had had the same ideas about non-Euclidean geometry but hadn't published. From rone at ennui.org Thu Jun 5 08:37:55 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (epicanthic folderol) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 08:37:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Chocolate on Dragaera? In-Reply-To: <000d01c32aff$a03598c0$d916fea9@ananda> from Timothy Nelson at "Jun 4, 2003 09:13:07 pm" Message-ID: <20030605153755.89ADD26E35@boredom.ennui.org> Timothy Nelson writes: There's vanilla, garlic, onions, lots of spices, peppers, etc. However, I cannot for the life of me recall if chocolate is mentioned anywhere! Help, help! I suspect Steve is saving chocolate to be discovered as a miraculous substance that allows you to survive Morganti knifings. rone -- Imagine Garrison Keillor separating Humphrey Socialists from members of a rural militia during a basement political rally/Lutefisk boil in the basement of a small Lutheran church. - Matt Marchese , on politics in Wisconsin From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Jun 5 08:42:50 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 05 Jun 2003 10:42:50 -0500 Subject: Chocolate on Dragaera? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David Silberstein writes: > On Wed, 4 Jun 2003, Timothy Nelson wrote: > > >There's vanilla, garlic, onions, lots of spices, peppers, etc. > > > >However, I cannot for the life of me recall if chocolate is mentioned > >anywhere! > > Well, some quick research indicates that vanilla is a New World plant. > So if they have vanilla, they almost certainly have chocolate as well. > > Unless it was all wiped out by some evil, terrible, fungus or mold. Peppers are a new-world plant also. As are potatos, which I think come in somewhere. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera mailing lists: From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Thu Jun 5 09:03:47 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 16:03:47 +0000 Subject: Asimov (was: Book of Athyra) Message-ID: John Klein wrote: >Tangentally: > >I've been reading Asimov's Book of Facts. (No, I don't know why. I >suspect many of them are urban legends, and some are out of date >(the book was published in the late seventies).) This one struck me as >somewhat appropos for this list. > >----- > >The 19th-century mathematician Janos Bolyai, who generally shares the >credit for having discovered non-Euclidean geometry, specialized in the >violin and the dueling sword, in the true tradition of the Hungarian >aristocrat. He once fenced with 13 swordsmen, one after the other, >vanquishing them all and playing the violin between bouts. Bolyai gave up >work in mathematics when he felt embarassment and humiliation at the >disclosure that a little earlier Karl Friedrich Gauss (1777-1835), the >famous German mathematician and astronomer, had had the same ideas about >non-Euclidean geometry but hadn't published. > What a pitty!. Just 4 swordsmen more and he would achieved to be a dzurlod! And he was Fenar... ups, Hungarian. _________________________________________________________________ Dale vida a tu correo. Con MSN 8 podr?s incluir fotos y textos increibles. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=es-es&XAPID=517&DI=1055 From TimN at rcn.com Thu Jun 5 09:11:12 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 12:11:12 -0400 Subject: Chocolate on Dragaera? References: Message-ID: <000c01c32b7d$16fb9a40$d916fea9@ananda> This makes me think that perhaps those greedy Easterners are keeping it to themselves. This must be why Sethra (the Younger) wants to invade -- to coin a phrase, Death for Chocolate! ----- Original Message ----- [Snip] > > Well, some quick research indicates that vanilla is a New World plant. > > So if they have vanilla, they almost certainly have chocolate as well. > > > > Unless it was all wiped out by some evil, terrible, fungus or mold. > > Peppers are a new-world plant also. As are potatos, which I think > come in somewhere. > -- From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Sat Jun 7 22:14:06 2003 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 22:14:06 -0700 Subject: Morganti Message-ID: Here's a question- can there be Morganti non-edged weapons? How about a Morganti flail, or a mace? Yes, I know the Serioli are supoosed to be the makers (as reported by Vlad- let's not get into his relability as a reporter), but does it always have to slice? James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN (trying to drum up discussion.) _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Sat Jun 7 22:54:18 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 22:54:18 -0700 Subject: Morganti In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 07 Jun 2003 22:14:06 -0700, you wrote: >Here's a question- can there be Morganti non-edged weapons? How about a >Morganti flail, or a mace? Yes, I know the Serioli are supoosed to be the >makers (as reported by Vlad- let's not get into his relability as a >reporter), but does it always have to slice? > I would think not, since the Morganti element of the weapon, the eating of the soul, comes into play when it pierces the skin. >James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN > >(trying to drum up discussion.) Darned good idea. :-) -- lazarus "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American Public." -- Theodore Roosevelt From iambluehearmeroar at yahoo.com Sun Jun 8 05:26:57 2003 From: iambluehearmeroar at yahoo.com (Blue) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 05:26:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Morganti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030608122657.96143.qmail@web40303.mail.yahoo.com> --- lazarus wrote: > On Sat, 07 Jun 2003 22:14:06 -0700, you > I would think not, since the Morganti element of the weapon, the > eating of the soul, comes into play when it pierces the skin. I hope that the essence of Morganti is "too big" to put into arrowhead or blow darts. -- Blue P.S. Sorry Lazarus, sent a copy of this to just you when I meant to send to the group so you'll have a duplicate. Blame it on first time posting. ===== -- Blue - iambluehearmeroar at yahoo dot com "...you might be eaten by a Grue..." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com From Gaertk at aol.com Sun Jun 8 08:43:36 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 11:43:36 -0400 Subject: Morganti Message-ID: <45FABFB2.15DCF4B4.00048EA6@aol.com> "James Griffin" writes: > Here's a question- can there be Morganti non-edged weapons? > How about a Morganti flail, or a mace? Yes, I know the > Serioli are supoosed to be the makers (as reported by Vlad- > let's not get into his relability as a reporter), but does > it always have to slice? Good question, one I've asked a few times myself. Between _Dragon_ and _Issola_ I speculated that Godslayer was a morning star. And in that part of _Dragon_ (chapter 10?) Mr. Lung refers to "artifacts", which allows the possibility of Great non-Weapons. Not sure how relevant this is to a Morganti discussion... --KG From singram at videotron.ca Sun Jun 8 08:46:46 2003 From: singram at videotron.ca (Scott Ingram) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 11:46:46 -0400 Subject: Morganti References: <20030608122657.96143.qmail@web40303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001701c32dd5$2b49b2c0$50768342@ingram> Question: How do you piss off a Morganti 'essence'? Answer: Build it into a rubber chew-toy. -Scott Ingram > > On Sat, 07 Jun 2003 22:14:06 -0700, you > > I would think not, since the Morganti element of the weapon, the > > eating of the soul, comes into play when it pierces the skin. > > I hope that the essence of Morganti is "too big" to put into arrowhead > or blow darts. > From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Sun Jun 8 09:41:44 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 12:41:44 -0400 Subject: Morganti In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030608164144.GB1897@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Sat, Jun 07, 2003 at 10:54:18PM -0700, lazarus wrote: > On Sat, 07 Jun 2003 22:14:06 -0700, you wrote: > >Here's a question- can there be Morganti non-edged weapons? How about a > >Morganti flail, or a mace? Yes, I know the Serioli are supoosed to be the > >makers (as reported by Vlad- let's not get into his relability as a > >reporter), but does it always have to slice? > I would think not, since the Morganti element of the weapon, the > eating of the soul, comes into play when it pierces the skin. Hmm . . . flails will pierce the skin, as will maces. So IMHO the answer is yes. From warlord at dragon.com Sun Jun 8 10:18:36 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 13:18:36 -0400 Subject: Morganti In-Reply-To: <20030608164144.GB1897@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030608131535.02914610@mail.dragon.com> At 12:41 6/8/2003 -0400, Steve Simmons wrote: >On Sat, Jun 07, 2003 at 10:54:18PM -0700, lazarus wrote: > > > On Sat, 07 Jun 2003 22:14:06 -0700, you wrote: > > > >Here's a question- can there be Morganti non-edged weapons? How about a > > >Morganti flail, or a mace? Yes, I know the Serioli are supoosed to be the > > >makers (as reported by Vlad- let's not get into his relability as a > > >reporter), but does it always have to slice? > > > I would think not, since the Morganti element of the weapon, the > > eating of the soul, comes into play when it pierces the skin. > >Hmm . . . flails will pierce the skin, as will maces. So IMHO the >answer is yes. Coulda does not mean shoulda. Style, people, think *style*. W Led Zeppelin: Weapons of Bass Destruction From tyday at phantomemail.com Sun Jun 8 17:44:17 2003 From: tyday at phantomemail.com (tyday at phantomemail.com) Date: 8 Jun 2003 17:44:17 -0700 Subject: Reply to {Morganti} Message-ID: <20030609004418.12532.qmail@email1.xeno-technology.com> > > On Sat, 07 Jun 2003 22:14:06 -0700, it was written: Here's a question- can there be Morganti non-edged weapons? How about a Morganti flail, or a mace? Yes, I know the Serioli are supoosed to be the makers (as reported by Vlad- let's not get into his relability as a reporter), but does it always have to slice? Dragaera group members: Seems to me that a Morganti flail would be hard to come by- even for an elf such as Krager. That is, if it has been produced and remains. I propose it might be good to first contribute what comments we've read and remembered about these formidible tools, in order to speculate. For example, a Morganti's aura can be covered over by too much material, such as a wooden sheath. A question- is the Morganti blade permanently sharp? Also- are there not a few untold Great Weapons? - T ?We live in dangerous times. Our armies are powerful, and we spend billions of dollars a year on new prisons, yet our lives are still ruled by fear. We are like pygmies lost in a maze. We are not at War, we are having a nervous breakdown.? ? Hunter S. Thompson, Kingdom of Fear -------------------------------------------------- This email is a free service of Phantom Email available at http://phantomemail.com/. Looking for a date? Check out http://personalinteractions.com/go/p185. From tyday at phantomemail.com Sun Jun 8 18:38:38 2003 From: tyday at phantomemail.com (tyday at phantomemail.com) Date: 8 Jun 2003 18:38:38 -0700 Subject: . . . please requesting help.* Message-ID: <20030609013838.3419.qmail@email1.xeno-technology.com> *Need to know how I can properly switch my _currently subscribed recipiant e-mail address_ to another e-mail address,, please.,, 1 out of 4 of my e-mail add.'s has usable folders and e-options, although it only occasionally works correctly. Since I have XP, does not, indeed,, that fact amaze you? *When I go to access HELP from, , it could not perform that operation because,, (sic) the default mail client is not properly installed. Now,, everyone commemmorate a good moment of the past by reperforming it with half the preparations,, or just have a snack. Thanks, really. - T -------------------------------------------------- This email is a free service of Phantom Email available at http://phantomemail.com/. Looking for a date? Check out http://personalinteractions.com/go/p185. From ikep at umbc.edu Sun Jun 8 19:13:57 2003 From: ikep at umbc.edu (Ike Porter) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 22:13:57 -0400 Subject: Morganti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Jun 2003, lazarus wrote: > On Sat, 07 Jun 2003 22:14:06 -0700, you wrote: > > >Here's a question- can there be Morganti non-edged weapons? How about a > >Morganti flail, or a mace? Yes, I know the Serioli are supoosed to be the > >makers (as reported by Vlad- let's not get into his relability as a > >reporter), but does it always have to slice? > > > > I would think not, since the Morganti element of the weapon, the > eating of the soul, comes into play when it pierces the skin. ...I can't help but think of the nice pulpy mess that various blunt objects can make out of a human being...there's finesse, and then there's overkill :) --Brother Ike Have you seen your mother, baby Standing in the shadow? From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Sun Jun 8 20:50:32 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2003 23:50:32 -0400 Subject: Morganti References: Message-ID: <3EE40408.7020607@earthlink.net> Ike Porter wrote: > On Sat, 7 Jun 2003, lazarus wrote: > >>On Sat, 07 Jun 2003 22:14:06 -0700, you wrote: >> >>>Here's a question- can there be Morganti non-edged weapons? How about a >>>Morganti flail, or a mace? Yes, I know the Serioli are supoosed to be the >>>makers (as reported by Vlad- let's not get into his relability as a >>>reporter), but does it always have to slice? >>> >>I would think not, since the Morganti element of the weapon, the >>eating of the soul, comes into play when it pierces the skin. > > ...I can't help but think of the nice pulpy mess that various blunt > objects can make out of a human being...there's finesse, and then there's > overkill :) Speaking of pulp, I seem to recall an earlier conversation about Morganti weapons in which the Serioli paper-making process was discussed. Something about the unkindest cut of all being a Morganti paper cut... Oh, yes, and the Morganti butter knife. *grin* Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~jhereg69 From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Jun 9 08:35:33 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 09 Jun 2003 10:35:33 -0500 Subject: . . . please requesting help.* In-Reply-To: <20030609013838.3419.qmail@email1.xeno-technology.com> References: <20030609013838.3419.qmail@email1.xeno-technology.com> Message-ID: writes: > *Need to know how I can properly switch my _currently subscribed > recipiant e-mail address_ to another e-mail address,, please.,, Unsubscribe the current address and subscribe the new one. The unsubscribe address is , the subscribe address is . The messages must be sent from the email address you want to affect. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera mailing lists: From kisc at insaneninjahero.com Mon Jun 9 10:37:29 2003 From: kisc at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 11:37:29 -0600 Subject: Morganti References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030608131535.02914610@mail.dragon.com> Message-ID: <021201c32ead$cf1d2700$909fd10c@crashoverride> >At Sunday, June 08, 2003 11:18 AM, Warlord wrote: > At 12:41 6/8/2003 -0400, Steve Simmons wrote: > >On Sat, Jun 07, 2003 at 10:54:18PM -0700, lazarus wrote: > > > > > On Sat, 07 Jun 2003 22:14:06 -0700, you wrote: > > > > > >Here's a question- can there be Morganti non-edged weapons? How about a > > > >Morganti flail, or a mace? Yes, I know the Serioli are supoosed to be the > > > >makers (as reported by Vlad- let's not get into his relability as a > > > >reporter), but does it always have to slice? > > > > > I would think not, since the Morganti element of the weapon, the > > > eating of the soul, comes into play when it pierces the skin. > > > >Hmm . . . flails will pierce the skin, as will maces. So IMHO the > >answer is yes. > > Coulda does not mean shoulda. > Style, people, think *style*. Given that the Serioli are all mystical and mysterious and whatnot, and given that all we've seen so far are swords and daggers (not even any axes, as I recall), I'm thinking that blades are, if not the sole worthy vessels of the Morganti essense, then the most common by FAR. Now, there are two other things to consider, though keep in mind these are coming from a list newbie. The intimacy and invasiveness of a sword or dagger blade penetrating you is unlike the sheer destruction wrought by a mace/flail/etc or even an axe (which also has a blade, per se). The quasi-sexual nature of stabbing someone with a sword may be part of the Morganti process. Or not, since Vlad seems to think that a prick or a slice is good enough to do for someone from a decently powerful Morganti weapon. On the gripping hand, I don't recall off the top of my head anyone actually getting killed by a Morganti weapon that just pricked or sliced them (and I don't think you can include great weapons in THIS part of the discussion). Mr. Brust has said elsewhere that he doesn't like to write about armored dudes, axes, maces, etc. I'll tell you what though. If I were in Mr. Brust's shoes, I would stand aside while we argue this out, and wait for us to make a decision... then put the opposite in the next book ;) Also, someone else mentioned that they thought there could be more Great Weapons. I think there can only be the magical 17. Which leads to speculation on my part whether there can only be 17 extant at any given time; i.e. there are 17x17 great weapons that will EVER exist, but only 17 can be formed at once or something. Or, are there only 17 Great Weapons. Great non-Weapons is also a fascinating question. It seems like there are any number of things that could qualify as Artifacts, but how are they going to get a soul, if they don't have any Morganti essense to suck one in with? Kisc From feaelin at kemenel.org Mon Jun 9 10:51:24 2003 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Iain E. Davis) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 12:51:24 -0500 Subject: Morganti Message-ID: <007c01c32eaf$bfd0c2f0$6601a8c0@Pel> -----Original Message----- > From: Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert [mailto:kisc at insaneninjahero.com] > Great non-Weapons is also a fascinating question. It seems > like there are any number of things that could qualify as > Artifacts, but how are they going to get a soul, if they > don't have any Morganti essense to suck one in with? They obtain it another way, or have it inherently. The Orb is an example of getting energy another way...it is clearly an Artifact (if you use the term to be a powerful tool (magical or otherwise) with a wide variety of powers)...it draws power from the Great Sea of Chaos, has a wide array of abilities/features, and is definitely unique. I received the impression that wizards use staves or wands. It would not be surprising to find out the are Artifacts in that category, possibly created by the best Athyra wizards. I'd expect them to be rare, and probably either prized and carefully guarded by their creator or current owner (presumably, themselves an Athyra wizard). Iain From kisc at insaneninjahero.com Mon Jun 9 11:08:44 2003 From: kisc at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 12:08:44 -0600 Subject: Morganti Message-ID: <024301c32eb2$2a8fcf30$909fd10c@crashoverride> I would say that wizard staves are less than Artifacts, generally. I would imagine that Morrolon and Sethra, for instance, might have staves that could qualify as Artifacts, but generally, I would think that every wizard on the block isn't capable of creating an Artifact. Now, I would define Artifact (with capital A) as something that transends the creator in some way. Either they last forever (or a Really Long Time), they are "ultimately" powerful (the orb), they are Unique and useful to many people, that sort of thing. A wizard's staff, while often powerful, doesn't /generally/ matter beyond that particular wizard who created it. The Orb and the Great Weapons have been a part of history, to some extent regardless of their users. Kisc ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iain E. Davis" To: Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 11:51 AM Subject: RE: Morganti -----Original Message----- > From: Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert [mailto:kisc at insaneninjahero.com] > Great non-Weapons is also a fascinating question. It seems > like there are any number of things that could qualify as > Artifacts, but how are they going to get a soul, if they > don't have any Morganti essense to suck one in with? They obtain it another way, or have it inherently. The Orb is an example of getting energy another way...it is clearly an Artifact (if you use the term to be a powerful tool (magical or otherwise) with a wide variety of powers)...it draws power from the Great Sea of Chaos, has a wide array of abilities/features, and is definitely unique. I received the impression that wizards use staves or wands. It would not be surprising to find out the are Artifacts in that category, possibly created by the best Athyra wizards. I'd expect them to be rare, and probably either prized and carefully guarded by their creator or current owner (presumably, themselves an Athyra wizard). Iain From agrajag at dragaera.net Mon Jun 9 11:15:07 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 09 Jun 2003 14:15:07 -0400 Subject: Morganti In-Reply-To: <024301c32eb2$2a8fcf30$909fd10c@crashoverride> References: <024301c32eb2$2a8fcf30$909fd10c@crashoverride> Message-ID: <1055182506.2178.1.camel@loiosh> On Mon, 2003-06-09 at 14:08, Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert wrote: > I would say that wizard staves are less than Artifacts, generally. I would > imagine that Morrolon and Sethra, for instance, might have staves that could > qualify as Artifacts, but generally, I would think that every wizard on the > block isn't capable of creating an Artifact. > > Now, I would define Artifact (with capital A) as something that transends > the creator in some way. Either they last forever (or a Really Long Time), Even if Sethra made something that lasted forever, would that really be transending her? :) > they are "ultimately" powerful (the orb), they are Unique and useful to many > people, that sort of thing. > > A wizard's staff, while often powerful, doesn't /generally/ matter beyond > that particular wizard who created it. The Orb and the Great Weapons have > been a part of history, to some extent regardless of their users. Hm.. I think taking all of this into account, we could probablly cound Sethra Lavode as an Artifact. Not sure how she'd like to being called one though :) From feaelin at kemenel.org Mon Jun 9 12:09:41 2003 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Iain E. Davis) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 14:09:41 -0500 Subject: Morganti In-Reply-To: <1055182506.2178.1.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: <007f01c32eba$af5bce50$6601a8c0@Pel> > From: Jag [mailto:agrajag at dragaera.net] > Hm.. I think taking all of this into account, we could > probablly cound Sethra Lavode as an Artifact. Not sure how > she'd like to being called one though :) We'll let you go ask her. If you like we'll bring a basket to collect all your parts in afterwards. :) From kisc at insaneninjahero.com Mon Jun 9 12:24:30 2003 From: kisc at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 13:24:30 -0600 Subject: Morganti References: <007f01c32eba$af5bce50$6601a8c0@Pel> Message-ID: <001801c32ebc$c013fa90$909fd10c@crashoverride> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iain E. Davis" Cc: Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 1:09 PM Subject: RE: Morganti > > From: Jag [mailto:agrajag at dragaera.net] > > Hm.. I think taking all of this into account, we could > > probablly cound Sethra Lavode as an Artifact. Not sure how > > she'd like to being called one though :) > > We'll let you go ask her. If you like we'll bring a basket to collect all > your parts in afterwards. :) > > No way am /I/ going in there in time to collect anything ... uh ... useful. If ever there was a reason for the SASB (Self Addressed Stamped Bucket), this is it. Kisc From rone at ennui.org Mon Jun 9 12:31:07 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (epicanthic folderol) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 12:31:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Morganti In-Reply-To: <021201c32ead$cf1d2700$909fd10c@crashoverride> from "Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert" at "Jun 9, 2003 11:37:29 am" Message-ID: <20030609193107.8243326E3F@boredom.ennui.org> Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert writes: Mr. Brust has said elsewhere that he doesn't like to write about armored dudes, axes, maces, etc. He has mentioned blunt weapons, though, like Glowbug's huge mace and my favorite character, Sticks and his clubs. rone -- Imagine Garrison Keillor separating Humphrey Socialists from members of a rural militia during a basement political rally/Lutefisk boil in the basement of a small Lutheran church. - Matt Marchese , on politics in Wisconsin From gomi at speakeasy.net Mon Jun 9 12:33:51 2003 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 12:33:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Morganti In-Reply-To: <20030609193107.8243326E3F@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 2003, epicanthic folderol wrote: > Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert writes: > Mr. Brust has said elsewhere that he doesn't like to write about armored > dudes, axes, maces, etc. > > He has mentioned blunt weapons, though, like Glowbug's huge mace and > my favorite character, Sticks and his clubs. I miss Sticks (cries). gomi ps needs more quarterstaff-fu pps if they make a vlad taltos movie, and cast colin farrell as vlad, i will go on a tri-state killing rampage ppps which will be light compared to what happens if they cast keanu WTF WTFWTF CONSTANTINE?? pppps comedy 'joe mantegna' option From kisc at insaneninjahero.com Mon Jun 9 13:02:55 2003 From: kisc at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 14:02:55 -0600 Subject: Morganti References: <20030609193107.8243326E3F@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <007001c32ec2$1e3e0520$909fd10c@crashoverride> I am having a real problem with this list... is there any chance that "reply-to" can be set so it goes back to the list by default? Because otherwise I'm going to start looking REALLY foolish. Anyway, here is the response that I sent back to him TWICE before managing to get it to the list. ........ Hmmm, Glowbug's mace seems to be the one exception to the rule. Sticks and his clubs still fit in the same universe very nicely... Sticks uses them with much finesse, which finesse seems to be the thing Steve prizes most highly. Which, you know, may feed back into the mace as Morganti weapon discussion. For the record, I'm thinking that my position is "probably not, but it could maybe happen in a specific circumstance or for a special reason". Kisc ----- Original Message ----- From: "epicanthic folderol" To: "SKZB List" Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 1:31 PM Subject: Re: Morganti > Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert writes: > Mr. Brust has said elsewhere that he doesn't like to write about armored > dudes, axes, maces, etc. > > He has mentioned blunt weapons, though, like Glowbug's huge mace and > my favorite character, Sticks and his clubs. > > rone > -- > Imagine Garrison Keillor separating Humphrey Socialists from members of > a rural militia during a basement political rally/Lutefisk boil in the > basement of a small Lutheran church. > - Matt Marchese , on politics in Wisconsin > From gomi at speakeasy.net Mon Jun 9 13:06:43 2003 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 13:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Morganti In-Reply-To: <007001c32ec2$1e3e0520$909fd10c@crashoverride> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 2003, Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert wrote: > I am having a real problem with this list... is there any chance that > "reply-to" can be set so it goes back to the list by default? > > Because otherwise I'm going to start looking REALLY foolish. > > Anyway, here is the response that I sent back to him TWICE before managing > to get it to the list. In the interest of saving time, pretend you've already received 10 or so condescending 'LOL U SUK AT TEH INTERNET, READ TEH HEADERS DUM DUM HEAD, OUR WAY IS BETTAR' replies, which is more or less what happened last time this was brought up. pe From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Jun 9 13:15:57 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 15:15:57 -0500 Subject: It has to be done. I apologize in advance. Message-ID: <20030609201557.GF3077@infodancer.org> I have decided that this list is too quiet. The following is designed to stir the pot a bit. Also, it's designed to make you laugh, through a careful combination of pomposity, elegance, and crude shock value. Warning: The following contains parody, humor, and other themes not suitable for young minds. To avoid legal issues, Steve is free to use any wording, ideas, etc with or without credit as he chooses, should he be insane enough to wish such a thing. A wind rose among the slopes of Dzur Mountain, slopes that reflected the faint orange light of dusk within the borders of the Empire. The wind scattered dust, sent it swirling among the rocks, growing in fury until it howled past the ear of the Dzur itself, the ear within which the Enchantress was said to lurk. The howling fury grew as the wind passed down the massive shape in stone, joining other winds from other mountains, merging to flow into the heart of the Empire like a river to the sea. It was not /the/ beginning... but it was /a/ beginning. But in the sheltering ear of the great Dzur, great sorceries were at work. The aura of power flickered and hummed, a deep uneven rhythm, straining to contain that which sought potent escape. The powerful energies at work within the Mountain gathered strength, and the great Dzur almost seemed to purr, the massive stone of its spine appearing in the fading light to be arched in some arcane feline pleasure. And if the well-nigh legendary shape of Dzur Mountain could be interpreted in that manner, how then are we to describe the soft voice of the Enchantress herself, wrapped in the bonds of her magic that gleamed with a strong resemblence to the blackest of silks, clothed in the mystic and indeed mistic energies of the Orb itself, shorn of all ornamentation save the hilt of Iceflame itself, as she moaned with a voice that commanded the energies of the universe... "Oh, Vlad, more!" Not even the most stringent interrogation could be sufficient to draw forth a description of what some dauntless Dzur Hero would have found upon reaching that most eldritch dwelling, for indeed the sight would have torn asunder the mind of any casual observer. As we would view the Medusa itself in a mirror lest we be turned to stone, so we must approach this scene by means of the mirror that adorns the ceiling of that particular ear. As we now turn our gaze into the mirror we must inquire of the reader whether they appreciate the dire peril which even this precaution, admittedly one of elementary design and fashioned by a hand unskilled in the art which is sorcery, though perhaps not entirely without talent in his own art, that of history, or perhaps in this matter more of historical interpertation, for we seek to interpert the visions history has provided in a manner neither unseemly nor overly florid, but rather with precision and deftness sketch the outlines of a picture the reader can surely fill in for himself, cannot entirely avert. The mirror itself, we should say, is ... ah... Sethra... I was just wanting to ask... um... researching for my new book, "The Enchantress of..." you've heard of it then? Ah, yes, I'll be going now... Ribbit. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From rone at ennui.org Mon Jun 9 13:20:31 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (epicanthic folderol) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 13:20:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: It has to be done. I apologize in advance. In-Reply-To: <20030609201557.GF3077@infodancer.org> from Matthew Hunter at "Jun 9, 2003 03:15:57 pm" Message-ID: <20030609202031.7176826E3F@boredom.ennui.org> Matthew Hunter writes: I have decided that this list is too quiet. I have decided that i liked the list just fine, and besides, it'll pick back up once LoCB comes out in two months. rone -- Imagine Garrison Keillor separating Humphrey Socialists from members of a rural militia during a basement political rally/Lutefisk boil in the basement of a small Lutheran church. - Matt Marchese , on politics in Wisconsin From TimN at rcn.com Mon Jun 9 14:42:17 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 17:42:17 -0400 Subject: Morganti References: Message-ID: <003401c32ed0$0038bee0$d916fea9@ananda> [Spoiler Alert] Let's look at the "What is an artifact" question the way an Athyra (or perhaps a Hawk) would. We know spellbreaker is, technically, part of a greater whole. However, if we remove the rest of the universe in relation to it, it is a standalone item of great power, without an attached soul (like the orb.) So I tend to think of SB (Spellbreaker = Steven Brust? Ok, too much pepsi....wheeee) as an artifact in chain form (vs sword form). Then again, an Athyra might view SB as GS right off because of "wholeness" and "connectedness"...so I doubt that until we see a better definition in the books (which will then be contradicted in a future book, of course) we will be able to be totally impartial in our judgement. - Tim From kisc at insaneninjahero.com Mon Jun 9 15:42:21 2003 From: kisc at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 16:42:21 -0600 Subject: Morganti References: Message-ID: <00d201c32ed8$63c64e20$909fd10c@crashoverride> Ok, I've done that. Can it be changed now? =^P See Kisc. See Kisc look silly. See Kisc ask for change. See Kisc dropping the subject. Kisc And for the record, I don't suck at TEH NET; rather, I am very good at TEH LAZI. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gomi no Sensei" To: Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 2:06 PM Subject: Re: Morganti > > On Mon, 9 Jun 2003, Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert wrote: > > > I am having a real problem with this list... is there any chance that > > "reply-to" can be set so it goes back to the list by default? > > > > Because otherwise I'm going to start looking REALLY foolish. > > > > Anyway, here is the response that I sent back to him TWICE before managing > > to get it to the list. > > In the interest of saving time, pretend you've already received 10 or > so condescending 'LOL U SUK AT TEH INTERNET, READ TEH HEADERS DUM DUM HEAD, > OUR WAY IS BETTAR' replies, which is more or less what happened last time > this was brought up. > > pe > > From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Mon Jun 9 16:39:19 2003 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 18:39:19 -0500 Subject: It has to be done. I apologize in advance. References: <20030609201557.GF3077@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <3EE51AA7.3050201@attbi.com> At the risk of sending a one-liner . . . ROTFL Mia From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Mon Jun 9 17:31:42 2003 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 17:31:42 -0700 Subject: It has to be done. I apologize in advance. Message-ID: >Ribbit. > Is that what a newt says? James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From Gaertk at aol.com Mon Jun 9 17:59:38 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 20:59:38 -0400 Subject: It has to be done. =?ISO-8859-1?B?oEkgYXBvbG9naXplIGluIGFkdmFuY2Uu?= Message-ID: <4951ADE7.2ABFFF45.00048EA6@aol.com> Matthew Hunter writes: > A wind rose Its frightening that it only took three words for me to realise what you're doing here. And then I was disappointed that the later paragraphs weren't quite right, until I got to the penultimate[1] one and saw that each parodied a different style. [1] Look at me! I'm using it correctly! --KG From akodobob at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 9 18:57:14 2003 From: akodobob at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 18:57:14 -0700 Subject: Morganti References: <003401c32ed0$0038bee0$d916fea9@ananda> Message-ID: <001101c32ef3$a1231f30$6401a8c0@DELL1> > Let's look at the "What is an artifact" question the way an Athyra (or > perhaps a Hawk) would. > > We know spellbreaker is, technically, part of a greater whole. However, if > we remove the rest of the universe in relation to it, it is a standalone > item of great power, without an attached soul (like the orb.) > I aways thought that Spellbreaker was, in some fasion intelligent and perhaps had some sort of soul in it. It certainly seems much more like an intelligent being than say the orb. Akodo Bob -who, in the middle of finals, wishes he had a morganti blade to end his suffering From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Jun 9 21:32:42 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 23:32:42 -0500 Subject: It has to be done. ?I apologize in advance. In-Reply-To: <4951ADE7.2ABFFF45.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <4951ADE7.2ABFFF45.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030610043242.GB643@infodancer.org> On Mon, Jun 09, 2003 at 08:59:38PM -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > Matthew Hunter writes: > > A wind rose > Its frightening that it only took three words for me to > realise what you're doing here. Truly, the pattern has been burned deeply into your brain. > And then I was disappointed that the later paragraphs weren't > quite right, until I got to the penultimate[1] one and saw > that each parodied a different style. Ah, but can you identify the specific authors being parodied[0]? -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp [0]: Not only does it make you laugh, it also contains a built in trivia contest! And for a limited time only it slices, dices, and smashes too! From charles_sumner at harvard.edu Tue Jun 10 06:53:50 2003 From: charles_sumner at harvard.edu (charles_sumner at harvard.edu) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:53:50 -0400 Subject: Intelligent Artifacts In-Reply-To: <001101c32ef3$a1231f30$6401a8c0@DELL1> References: <003401c32ed0$0038bee0$d916fea9@ananda> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030610094013.00ab2418@camail2.harvard.edu> At 06:57 PM 6/9/2003 -0700, you wrote: > > We know spellbreaker is, technically, part of a greater whole. However, if > > we remove the rest of the universe in relation to it, it is a standalone > > item of great power, without an attached soul (like the orb.) > > > I aways thought that Spellbreaker was, in some fasion intelligent and >perhaps had some sort of soul in it. It certainly seems much more like an >intelligent being than say the orb. That's just because we've seen so much more of Spellbreaker than the Orb, what with the stories being told from Vlad's PoV. I've always thought that the Orb was at least as intelligent as Spellbreaker, if not more so. It can respond to situations and defend itself without direct orders, which implies some level of self-awareness and understanding of what's going on around it. On its own, Spellbreaker has just hung onto Vlad, changed size, and wiggled around a bit with Vlad reading things into it. So far, we've never had anything told from the PoV of the Emperor/ess so it's hard to judge how much interaction they have with the Orb. Hopefully, The Lord of Castle Black will have some details about the Empresses' relationship with the Orb is, which will answer more of this. Charley Sumner charles_sumner at harvard.edu "Let's not jump to any conclusions." "I didn't jump. I took a tiny step, and there conclusions were." Buffy the Vampire Slayer - "Phases" From mam at theworld.com Tue Jun 10 09:06:45 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:06:45 -0400 Subject: Morganti In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 2003, Gomi no Sensei wrote: #I miss Sticks (cries). Seconded. (sniff) -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mam at theworld.com Tue Jun 10 09:07:35 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:07:35 -0400 Subject: Morganti In-Reply-To: <20030609193107.8243326E3F@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Jun 2003, epicanthic folderol wrote: (LOVE that nickname!) -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mr1 at rcosta.com Tue Jun 10 09:26:31 2003 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:26:31 -0400 Subject: It has to be done. I apologize in advance. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3EE5CE77.29426.AC15C7@localhost> On 9 Jun 2003 at 17:31, James Griffin wrote > > > >Ribbit. > > > > Is that what a newt says? > > James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN No, newts don't speak frog. They do, however, speak passable Farsi, as well as English (with a slight Scottish accent). M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From brian.vanskyock at zimmer.com Tue Jun 10 11:00:47 2003 From: brian.vanskyock at zimmer.com (Brian Vanskyock) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 13:00:47 -0500 Subject: It has to be done. I apologize in advance. References: <3EE5CE77.29426.AC15C7@localhost> Message-ID: <3EE61CCF.F5F1EEC7@zimmer.com> hmmmm, Farsi with a Scottich accent :) b Michele Riccio wrote: > On 9 Jun 2003 at 17:31, James Griffin wrote > > > > > > > >Ribbit. > > > > > > > Is that what a newt says? > > > > James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN > > No, newts don't speak frog. They do, however, speak passable > Farsi, as well as English (with a slight Scottish accent). > > M > Michele Riccio > mr1 at rcosta.com From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Jun 10 15:02:08 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:02:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Morganti In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jun 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Mon, 9 Jun 2003, Gomi no Sensei wrote: > > #I miss Sticks (cries). > > Seconded. (sniff) Some random "thoughts": Was Melestav granted a purple robe? Vlad seemed to forgive him; Dante wouldn't. Is the Cycle the Wheel of Karma in some sense? Anybody read Lord of Light lately? Do some souls get tried in different Houses until they click? Could that be part of Kragar's problem - his soul isn't really Dragon? (I'm thinking of d'Artagnan saying, "I do not have the uniform, but I have the soul. My heart is Musketeer..." [My literal Dragaerean translation >from chapter 5 of _T3M_.]) So if a guy really pisses you off, can you kill him, then trace his soul's reappearance and etc? SKZB's universe seems to be fundamentally benevolent. There is reincarnation and a nice (if you're Dragaeran) Uebergod running things. Except for the occasional Morganti killing the worst things that have happened to Vlad have been a rough interrogation, Sticks's loss, and his no-hard-feelings break-up with Cawti. Except for _Teckla_, one might class the Vladiad more as a comedy than a tragedy. Vlad doesn't have a tragic flaw, anyway. If I had written _Issola_ it would probably have ended with Sethra and Co. dead, Adrilankha laid to waste, and Vlad left to fend for himself (say with L.T.) against a landscape of Jenoine. Of course _Five Hundred Years After_ is in fact a tragedy, but in my view Adron got what he more or less deserved and everyone else survived, so it wasn't a bummer. Those of us who are Joss Whedon fans have gotten used to the equivalent of Kragar being killed off randomly with catastrophic consequences... - Philip From zarkon at illrepute.org Fri Jun 13 18:27:05 2003 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 21:27:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Off-topicness Message-ID: So, this probably isn't the correct venue, but I really, really don't care. My wife and I just had our first child. Her name is Willow. Pictures are here: http://illrepute.org/~zarkon/pictures/baby1/ Um, wait, it /is/ on topic. I had all the extant Paarfi books with me to pass the time during labor. (24 hours...) From tmer at eudoramail.com Fri Jun 13 18:32:14 2003 From: tmer at eudoramail.com (Barbara Baj) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 21:32:14 -0400 Subject: Off-topicness Message-ID: Well, congratulations!!!! I think that is a fine topic regardless! -- --------- Original Message --------- DATE: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 21:27:05 From: John Klein To: dragaera at dragaera.info Cc: >So, this probably isn't the correct venue, but I really, really don't care. > >My wife and I just had our first child. Her name is Willow. Pictures are here: > >http://illrepute.org/~zarkon/pictures/baby1/ > >Um, wait, it /is/ on topic. I had all the extant Paarfi books with me to >pass the time during labor. (24 hours...) > > Need a new email address that people can remember Check out the new EudoraMail at http://www.eudoramail.com From eshivak at netzero.net Fri Jun 13 19:05:59 2003 From: eshivak at netzero.net (Eric Shivak) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 22:05:59 -0400 Subject: Off-topicness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Congratulations! Being a father of three myself,f I can only say you enter a WHOLE new world filled with joy and utter terror! Be well! Eric Shivak SDD Computer Support Services eshivak at sddcomputersupport.com www.sddcomputersupport.com 631-269-5295 -----Original Message----- From: John Klein [mailto:zarkon at illrepute.org] Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 9:27 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Off-topicness So, this probably isn't the correct venue, but I really, really don't care. My wife and I just had our first child. Her name is Willow. Pictures are here: http://illrepute.org/~zarkon/pictures/baby1/ Um, wait, it /is/ on topic. I had all the extant Paarfi books with me to pass the time during labor. (24 hours...) From mia_mcdavid at attbi.com Fri Jun 13 21:25:37 2003 From: mia_mcdavid at attbi.com (Mia McDavid) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 23:25:37 -0500 Subject: Off-topicness References: Message-ID: <3EEAA3C1.4060709@attbi.com> John, ...and what did *she* have to pass the time during labor????? Kidding aside, congratulations and best wishes! Mia From ehahn at isochronism.com Sun Jun 15 18:01:49 2003 From: ehahn at isochronism.com (Edward Hahn) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 21:01:49 -0400 Subject: It has to be done. I apologize in advance. In-Reply-To: <20030609201557.GF3077@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <1C15030E-9F96-11D7-9C17-000393962F9C@isochronism.com> Sorry for the late reply, but is this a continuation of the "How did Vlad lose his little finger" thread? ed On Monday, Jun 9, 2003, at 16:15 US/Eastern, Matthew Hunter wrote: > I have decided that this list is too quiet. The following is > designed to stir the pot a bit. Also, it's designed to make you > laugh, through a careful combination of pomposity, elegance, > and crude shock value. From mr1 at rcosta.com Sun Jun 15 22:06:40 2003 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 01:06:40 -0400 Subject: Off-topicness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3EED1820.25643.AC552@localhost> Wow - how lucky can you be. Not everyone can look fabulous in a straight-jacket!! Congratulations and good luck. Michele On 13 Jun 2003 at 21:27, John Klein wrote: > So, this probably isn't the correct venue, but I really, really don't > care. > > My wife and I just had our first child. Her name is Willow. Pictures > are here: > > http://illrepute.org/~zarkon/pictures/baby1/ > > Um, wait, it /is/ on topic. I had all the extant Paarfi books with me > to pass the time during labor. (24 hours...) > Michele mr1 at rcosta.com From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Jun 15 22:16:08 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 22:16:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: back on-topicness In-Reply-To: <3EED1820.25643.AC552@localhost> References: <3EED1820.25643.AC552@localhost> Message-ID: Anybody have anything insightful to say about SKZB's having children appearing in his writing? I'm thinking maybe the portrait of Savn and Polyi in _Athyra_ or perhaps the last line of _Orca_ and the Zerika sideplot in _FHYA_. On Mon, 16 Jun 2003, Michele wrote: > Wow - how lucky can you be. Not everyone can look fabulous in a > straight-jacket!! > > Congratulations and good luck. > > Michele > > > > On 13 Jun 2003 at 21:27, John Klein wrote: > > > So, this probably isn't the correct venue, but I really, really don't > > care. > > > > My wife and I just had our first child. Her name is Willow. Pictures > > are here: > > > > http://illrepute.org/~zarkon/pictures/baby1/ > > > > Um, wait, it /is/ on topic. I had all the extant Paarfi books with me > > to pass the time during labor. (24 hours...) > > > > Michele > mr1 at rcosta.com > > From genji_77 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 16 18:13:38 2003 From: genji_77 at hotmail.com (Michael Pacheco) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 18:13:38 -0700 Subject: Morganti References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark A Mandel" > On Mon, 9 Jun 2003, Gomi no Sensei wrote: > > #I miss Sticks (cries). > > Seconded. (sniff) > Thirded *pouts* From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Jun 16 18:13:11 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 20:13:11 -0500 Subject: Morganti In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030617011311.GX538@infodancer.org> On Mon, Jun 16, 2003 at 06:13:38PM -0700, Michael Pacheco wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark A Mandel" > > On Mon, 9 Jun 2003, Gomi no Sensei wrote: > > #I miss Sticks (cries). > > Seconded. (sniff) > Thirded *pouts* Mr Brust, is it August yet? Issit? Huh? Huh? -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Mon Jun 16 23:50:28 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 06:50:28 +0000 Subject: Morganti Message-ID: > > On Mon, 9 Jun 2003, Gomi no Sensei wrote: > > > > #I miss Sticks (cries). > > > > Seconded. (sniff) > > > > >Thirded *pouts* The Adrilankha Times. --Obituary-- Beloved Sticks: Your friends, fans and victims do not forget you. Rest in peace. _________________________________________________________________ Melod?as, logos y mil servicios para tu tel?fono en MSN M?viles. http://www.msn.es/MSNMovil/ From dgf at dd-b.net Tue Jun 17 15:17:03 2003 From: dgf at dd-b.net (dgf at dd-b.net) Date: 17 Jun 2003 22:17:03 -0000 Subject: Dragaera subscriber list Message-ID: <20030617221703.3400.qmail@dd-b.net> acwest-dragaera (at) craigwest.net (email) "A. 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Nonymous" zaphod (at) charter.net (email) "Greg Schwartz" zarkon (at) illrepute.org (email) John Klein zizban (at) adelphia.net (email) Chris Turkel From genji_77 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 17 17:51:39 2003 From: genji_77 at hotmail.com (Genji) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 17:51:39 -0700 Subject: Morganti References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iv?n Rebollo" To: Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 11:50 PM Subject: Re: Morganti > > On Mon, 9 Jun 2003, Gomi no Sensei wrote: > > > > #I miss Sticks (cries). > > > > Seconded. (sniff) > > > > >Thirded *pouts* The Adrilankha Times. --Obituary-- Beloved Sticks: Your friends, fans and victims do not forget you. Rest in peace. P.S. At least one of your fans would like to read about GS absorbing some Jhereg nobility souls in your honor. :) From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Fri Jun 20 04:27:04 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 11:27:04 +0000 Subject: Half-breed citizenship Message-ID: Dear all, Regarding FHYA, some months ago you wondered about the possibility to break the Orb's link in order to keep a prisioner in the Imperial prision. I have been wondering myself the odd situation af half-breed in the Empire through the two main exemples that I can rememenber from FHYA and JHEREG. Both half-breed where in the Jheregh house (and, in fact, in the Jheregh itself). That's my open question: if there are just three open houses who accept to include members not born there (Jhereg by selling titles, Dzur fighting seventeen heros and Teckla becaming a servant), a half-breed will only be able to have a link to the orb and thus use sorcery through entering in one of the former three. Maybe this is the reason that both half-breed that we know have entered into the Jhereg and, also, why it is such a social blame to be or to breed a half-breed, specially in the post-interregnum Dragaera where sorcery is a commonly and needed tool in each-day life. Iv?n. _________________________________________________________________ Accede al romance onine. Descubre gente que busca a otra gente en MSN Amor & Amistad. http://match.msn.es/ From agrajag at dragaera.net Fri Jun 20 05:59:15 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 20 Jun 2003 08:59:15 -0400 Subject: Half-breed citizenship In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1056113954.2174.9.camel@loiosh> On Fri, 2003-06-20 at 07:27, Iv?n Rebollo wrote: > Dear all, > > Regarding FHYA, some months ago you wondered about the possibility to break > the Orb's link in order to keep a prisioner in the Imperial prision. I have > been wondering myself the odd situation af half-breed in the Empire through > the two main exemples that I can rememenber from FHYA and JHEREG. Both > half-breed where in the Jheregh house (and, in fact, in the Jheregh itself). > > That's my open question: if there are just three open houses who accept to > include members not born there (Jhereg by selling titles, Dzur fighting > seventeen heros and Teckla becaming a servant), a half-breed will only be > able to have a link to the orb and thus use sorcery through entering in one > of the former three. > > Maybe this is the reason that both half-breed that we know have entered into > the Jhereg and, also, why it is such a social blame to be or to breed a > half-breed, specially in the post-interregnum Dragaera where sorcery is a > commonly and needed tool in each-day life. The way I see it, the fact that half-breeds aren't accepted into either of the Houses they're born into is caused by the unacceptence of half-breeds, not the other way around. I'm sure the unacceptence of half-breeds is just an old tradition of trying to keep the blood lines pure. In the beginning of Dragaeran society, the Dragaerans based a lot of their identity of who they are on which tribe they fit into. And back then they understood the genetic differences between the tribes. So maybe they tried to avoid half-breeds because they weren't sure how healthy such a creature would be, or maybe the social structure was to new and delicate then to try to figure out where to fit in such people. Either way, I'm sure that the unacceptence of half-breeds just became tradition, and with Dragaerans still basing a lot of their identity on their House many Cycles later, its no surprise that they were happy to keep up the tradition of not having people who didn't fit into their well-defined social structure. Jag From charles_sumner at harvard.edu Fri Jun 20 06:52:03 2003 From: charles_sumner at harvard.edu (charles_sumner at harvard.edu) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 09:52:03 -0400 Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030620094209.00b1ed48@camail2.harvard.edu> At 11:27 AM 6/20/2003 +0000, Iv?n Rebollo wrote: >... if there are just three open houses who accept to include members not >born there (Jhereg by selling titles, Dzur fighting seventeen heros and >Teckla becaming a servant), a half-breed will only be able to have a link >to the orb and thus use sorcery through entering in one of the former three. This got me thinking, how does one actually get a "link to the Orb?" After an Easterner buys a title in the Jhereg, is there a ceremony that connects him and does that pass on to his family? This gets even more confusing in the Teckla scenario where all one has to do to be a Teckla is be a peasant. So if a Dragerean peasant from Greenaere or Elde moves to Adrilankha, do they automatically get a link to the Orb, or do they have to be formally recognized as a member of House Teckla first? Charley Sumner charles_sumner at harvard.edu An open mind is one thing, letting geese run around in there is completely different. From casey at trinityhartford.org Fri Jun 20 06:57:19 2003 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 09:57:19 -0400 Subject: Half-breed citizenship In-Reply-To: <1056113954.2174.9.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: Jag wrote: [snip] > be, or maybe the social structure was to new and delicate then to try to > figure out where to fit in such people. Either way, I'm sure that the [snip] Consider for a moment a Dragon-Jhereg half-breed during a Phoenix Reign. Should s/he be accorded the social standing of a Dragon (High) or a Jhereg (Low). What about if it was during a Vallista reign? I wonder how much the "unacceptance of half-breeds" that we see in the books is a product of where we are in the Cycle (Phoenix reign throughout). Since the only truly "open" Houses are Jhereg, which is at the bottom of the wheel, and Teckla, which is descending and has a _long_ time to wait for their next reign, it may be that half-breeds are simply being assigned the social status of members of these two houses. Casey From agrajag at dragaera.net Fri Jun 20 07:08:56 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 20 Jun 2003 10:08:56 -0400 Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030620094209.00b1ed48@camail2.harvard.edu> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030620094209.00b1ed48@camail2.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <1056118136.2174.15.camel@loiosh> On Fri, 2003-06-20 at 09:52, charles_sumner at harvard.edu wrote: > At 11:27 AM 6/20/2003 +0000, Iv?n Rebollo wrote: > >... if there are just three open houses who accept to include members not > >born there (Jhereg by selling titles, Dzur fighting seventeen heros and > >Teckla becaming a servant), a half-breed will only be able to have a link > >to the orb and thus use sorcery through entering in one of the former three. > > This got me thinking, how does one actually get a "link to the Orb?" After > an Easterner buys a title in the Jhereg, is there a ceremony that connects > him and does that pass on to his family? This gets even more confusing in > the Teckla scenario where all one has to do to be a Teckla is be a > peasant. So if a Dragerean peasant from Greenaere or Elde moves to > Adrilankha, do they automatically get a link to the Orb, or do they have to > be formally recognized as a member of House Teckla first? In one of the book (I think BP or FHYA) there was an Easterner who came across the mountains, became a Teckla, then later went back. From what I remember of that, I think that 'becoming a Teckla' isn't as much about being accepted by the other Teckla, as much as it is one of the nobles controlling the land accepted him as a peasant to work on his land, and thus he became a Teckla. Perhaps it was automatic after that, or maybe the noble actually caused the link to happen. The Orb is very smart, and able to pry into social standings. The Dragon Council choses which line the heir should come from, then when it comes time for a Dragon to take the throne, the Orb immediately knows which Dragon to go to. Given that it can pry into human affairs in this way, I would not put it past to Orb to know who should and shouldn't have a link to it. From charles_sumner at harvard.edu Fri Jun 20 07:30:51 2003 From: charles_sumner at harvard.edu (charles_sumner at harvard.edu) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:30:51 -0400 Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: <1056118136.2174.15.camel@loiosh> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030620094209.00b1ed48@camail2.harvard.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20030620094209.00b1ed48@camail2.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030620101748.00ab96b0@camail2.harvard.edu> At 10:08 AM 6/20/2003 -0400, Jag wrote: >On Fri, 2003-06-20 at 09:52, charles_sumner at harvard.edu wrote: > > This got me thinking, how does one actually get a "link to the > Orb?" After > > an Easterner buys a title in the Jhereg, is there a ceremony that connects > > him and does that pass on to his family? This gets even more confusing in > > the Teckla scenario where all one has to do to be a Teckla is be a > > peasant. So if a Dragerean peasant from Greenaere or Elde moves to > > Adrilankha, do they automatically get a link to the Orb, or do they > have to > > be formally recognized as a member of House Teckla first? > >In one of the book (I think BP or FHYA) there was an Easterner who came >across the mountains, became a Teckla, then later went back. From what >I remember of that, I think that 'becoming a Teckla' isn't as much about >being accepted by the other Teckla, as much as it is one of the nobles >controlling the land accepted him as a peasant to work on his land, and >thus he became a Teckla. Perhaps it was automatic after that, or maybe >the noble actually caused the link to happen. A valid point for the country Teckla, but what about the ones who live in the cities. An employed Teckla who works as a servant can still follow your model, but I don't think that they lose their link to the Orb if they're fired or their employer is killed (or do they)? >The Orb is very smart, and able to pry into social standings. The >Dragon Council choses which line the heir should come from, then when it >comes time for a Dragon to take the throne, the Orb immediately knows >which Dragon to go to. Given that it can pry into human affairs in this >way, I would not put it past to Orb to know who should and shouldn't >have a link to it. Now this argument, as nebulous as it is, I accept. I've wondered at times if the Orb might be fully sentient, so saying that it simply knows who it's supposed to be connected to or not isn't hard to posit for an artifact of unimaginable power. On a tangential point though, we don't know for certain that the Dragon Heir's claim to the throne works as smoothly as the Dragon Council wants it to as we've never really seen it happen, just the manipulations that go on behind the Dragon Council. It's not hard to imagine that when the cycle shifts, the Dragon Council would say Person X is the heir but then a bunch of members of another line would argue that point with their armies, Dragons are like that after all. It's important to remember that in all of the books we've never seen a "normal" transition of the Orb from one ruler to the next. Charley Sumner charles_sumner at harvard.edu "Let's not jump to any conclusions." "I didn't jump. I took a tiny step, and there conclusions were." Buffy the Vampire Slayer - "Phases" From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Jun 20 07:48:47 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 09:48:47 -0500 Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030620101748.00ab96b0@camail2.harvard.edu> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030620094209.00b1ed48@camail2.harvard.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20030620094209.00b1ed48@camail2.harvard.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20030620101748.00ab96b0@camail2.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <20030620144847.GD31789@infodancer.org> On Fri, Jun 20, 2003 at 10:30:51AM -0400, charles_sumner at harvard.edu wrote: > On a tangential point though, we don't know for certain that the Dragon > Heir's claim to the throne works as smoothly as the Dragon Council wants it > to as we've never really seen it happen, just the manipulations that go on > behind the Dragon Council. It's not hard to imagine that when the cycle > shifts, the Dragon Council would say Person X is the heir but then a bunch > of members of another line would argue that point with their armies, > Dragons are like that after all. It's important to remember that in all of > the books we've never seen a "normal" transition of the Orb from one ruler > to the next. I think it fairly certain that the transition of the Orb from one ruler to the next is never an entirely peaceful or "normal" matter. Draw the analogy to the Mandate of Heaven in China; the ruler with the Orb is the divinely appointed ruler, until someone manages to take the Orb from him, at which points the gods ceased to favor the old ruler for the new... the Cycle works exactly that way. Nobody goes to *check* where that big wheel sits. They look for a transfer of power and then validate it when the Orb moves. I strongly suspect that the Orb will go to whichever person of the correct house manages a coup, unless the Emperor personally resigns in an orderly transition. Of course, if you have the support of your House, your chances of a successful coup are much higher, thus the whole Heir business. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From agrajag at dragaera.net Fri Jun 20 08:00:28 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 20 Jun 2003 11:00:28 -0400 Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030620101748.00ab96b0@camail2.harvard.edu> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030620094209.00b1ed48@camail2.harvard.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20030620094209.00b1ed48@camail2.harvard.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20030620101748.00ab96b0@camail2.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <1056121228.2174.22.camel@loiosh> On Fri, 2003-06-20 at 10:30, charles_sumner at harvard.edu wrote: > It's important to remember that in all of > the books we've never seen a "normal" transition of the Orb from one ruler > to the next. We've seen, or seen close to two handing offs of the Orb, where one Emperor(ess) willingly stepped down and handed it off to the next House. This happened shortly before the beginning of FHYA, and we also know Zerika hands the Orb off to Norathar sometime before Paarfi publishes. And we sorta saw a 'normal' transition after the death of an Emperor(ess). After Tortaalik's death, the Orb did stop and process for a moment to determine who the next Emperor should be, and settled on Andron. It was only because Andron happened to be running a spell to rip the Orb away from the emperor (which became Andron) and give it to Andron that the transition became something other than normal. But before the explosive loop occured, we did see the Orb actually decide who the next Emperor should be. And based off of what we saw in _Yendi_, we do know that the considerations of the Dragon Council went into how the Orb chose. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Jun 20 09:20:10 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 09:20:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: <20030620144847.GD31789@infodancer.org> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030620094209.00b1ed48@camail2.harvard.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20030620094209.00b1ed48@camail2.harvard.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20030620101748.00ab96b0@camail2.harvard.edu> <20030620144847.GD31789@infodancer.org> Message-ID: > I strongly suspect that the Orb will go to whichever person of > the correct house manages a coup, unless the Emperor personally > resigns in an orderly transition. > > Of course, if you have the support of your House, your chances of > a successful coup are much higher, thus the whole Heir business. I don't understand how anyone can actually launch a successful coup against an Emperor able to use the Orb, which I believe gives one the ability to fry anyone linked to it. Perhaps the link is the result of a simple spell, leaving a psychic marker that the Orb recognizes. This would explain how backwater Tecklas are linked - and possibly how Heirs are recognized. Then if say Adron were concerned he was about to get a lightning bolt downloaded over his link he could just remove or mask it temporarily. On the other hand, in a sorcerous fight it would be too easy to delink an opponent (or the main goal of the fight, in which case Vlad should have mentioned this to us in say _Taltos_). Or say the Emperor. - On the subject of the Orb, it's smart enough to scan anyone under it for truth - it ought to be smart enough to scan everyone within 100 meters for a fixed intention to off the Emperor, which would make the end of _FHYA_ an autocoup... From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Jun 20 09:39:34 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 09:39:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Half-breed citizenship In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Casey Rousseau wrote: > Jag wrote: > [snip] > > be, or maybe the social structure was to new and delicate then to try to > > figure out where to fit in such people. Either way, I'm sure that the > [snip] > > Consider for a moment a Dragon-Jhereg half-breed during a Phoenix > Reign. Should s/he be accorded the social standing of a Dragon (High) > or a Jhereg (Low). What about if it was during a Vallista reign? > > I wonder how much the "unacceptance of half-breeds" that we see in the > books is a product of where we are in the Cycle (Phoenix reign > throughout). Since the only truly "open" Houses are Jhereg, which is at > the bottom of the wheel, and Teckla, which is descending and has a > _long_ time to wait for their next reign, it may be that half-breeds are > simply being assigned the social status of members of these two houses. On the one hand, I like your theory - on the other, I like three competing ones: (1) a simple spell is available to prevent conception, so being a half-breed means your folks were half-wits, esp. post- interregnum; and (2) since each House has genes from different animals interbreeding is a bit like bestiality. The latter idea isn't consistent with the cross- House courting we see in e.g. _TPG_ - but maybe that's just Paarfi being naughty and showing incipient anti-House tendencies - I have trouble believing that cross-House sex would be acceptable when cross-breeding isn't (and in fact in _TPotD_ we get a hint that the former isn't couth under normal circumstances.) Speculating further, since Yendis can't be identified as such, the masked scene in _TPG_ between Pel and a Dragon might be an indication that (3) the social rule is related to what we'd call racism - the Other doesn't look like you. I'd thus bet that there are a lot of Yendi genes loose in the other Houses and v.v. This might explain some of the disgust for Yendis (they're cuckoos, they're impure), and provide a mechanism that keeps them indistinguishable... From alexx at TheWorld.com Fri Jun 20 09:44:23 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 12:44:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030620094209.00b1ed48@camail2.harvard.edu> from "charles_sumner@harvard.edu" at Jun 20, 2003 09:52:03 AM Message-ID: <200306201644.MAA4455623@shell.TheWorld.com> > > This got me thinking, how does one actually get a "link to the Orb?" ISTR that the last time this came up, SKZB mentioned that there would be more info about it in the next volume of Viscount. So perhaps we'll know in a few months. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "...my fictional William Gull ("Sidney Greenstreet after a crash course at the Abby of Thelema," as Iain Sinclair recently, with heartless accuracy, described him)." -- Alan Moore in correspondence with Dave Sim about _From Hell_ From charles_sumner at harvard.edu Fri Jun 20 09:47:29 2003 From: charles_sumner at harvard.edu (charles_sumner at harvard.edu) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 12:47:29 -0400 Subject: Imperial Transitions (How much can we trust Paarfi) In-Reply-To: <1056121228.2174.22.camel@loiosh> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030620101748.00ab96b0@camail2.harvard.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20030620094209.00b1ed48@camail2.harvard.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20030620094209.00b1ed48@camail2.harvard.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20030620101748.00ab96b0@camail2.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030620114714.00ab67b8@camail2.harvard.edu> At 11:00 AM 6/20/2003 -0400, Jag wrote: >We've seen, or seen close to two handing offs of the Orb, where one >Emperor(ess) willingly stepped down and handed it off to the next >House. This happened shortly before the beginning of FHYA, and we also >know Zerika hands the Orb off to Norathar sometime before Paarfi >publishes. Paarfi does talk about the Emperor before Tortaalik stepping down, but that's a minor background point in a "historical romance" not an event we actually "see" happen. There may very well have been more going on there than we know about (although I do agree with you on this one for the most part, I'm just playing devil's advocate). As for the Zerika to Norathar transition, I can't recall if actually know any of the details of this. We can tell from Paarfi's dedication page the date of the hand off, but do we really know what happened? >And we sorta saw a 'normal' transition after the death of an >Emperor(ess). After Tortaalik's death, the Orb did stop and process for >a moment to determine who the next Emperor should be, and settled on >Andron. [Cut how this led to the disaster] Good observation. I had forgotten about the moment right before the disaster when the Orb chose Adron. Although there was nothing at all normal about the events surrounding the disaster, that scene does help us determine what a normal transition is as we "see" the Orb making the decision - another indication of it's intelligence. Of course, this brings up a much bigger question about how much can we trust Paarfi on these details. We know that he is writing a work of popular historical fiction and he researched the events and interviewed some of the players, but we have to assume that he's romanticized it for his audience (Don't forget that Brust is basing this on Dumas who took documentable historical events and wrote a story around them adding his own characters and motivations). Do we believe that Paarfi managed to get interviews with the first-hand witnesses of that event? The only people direct knowledge of what happened in that room are Sethra, Aleria, Mario, and Zerika (through the Orb) and I can't see them talking to him about it. Even if they did though, their accounts are sure to be colored by their personal feeling on the matter. We know that Aleria has told differing accounts of the disaster to others, so I could see her telling Paarfi a version of what happened that makes her father look more noble than he was. In fact, events in Issola make it clear that there are some things about the disaster that Aleria has never told anyone. This goes a long way towards explaining why descriptions of the Disaster are different in the Khaavren romances then they are in the Taltos novels. Also, if what Paarfi said was actually true, that throws the whole cycle out of whack as it means the actual transition of emperors was Phoenix Decadent --> Dragon (for a few minutes) --> Interregnum --> Phoenix Ascendant and that just doesn't seem right. Phoenix Decadent --> Interregnum --> Phoenix Ascendant is much more plausible from the standpoint of the cycle itself; because if Adron really was the emperor according to the Orb, then it should still be the Dragon reign after the Interregnum (or possibly the Lyorn reign). One could argue that the Interregnum reset the cycle itself as the Empire didn't exist during that period, but I think it's easier to believe that Paarfi may have made that part up to make Adron look more justified in his actions. Don't forget that there's a meta-level to the Paarfi books. They were not written by Brust but by a character in Vlad's world and published there. We know that Vlad and Cawti read Paarfi's works and consider them to be romantic fiction, not a history of the events they're set around. Based on that, we have to be careful about taking anything in them as fact just because the books are as real to us as the Taltos books are. Charley Sumner charles_sumner at harvard.edu "That's brilliant! They've hid the information in plain sight by disguising it as a web page." From alexx at theworld.com Fri Jun 20 09:50:58 2003 From: alexx at theworld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 12:50:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: <1056121228.2174.22.camel@loiosh> from "Jag" at Jun 20, 2003 11:00:28 AM Message-ID: <200306201650.MAA4383401@shell.TheWorld.com> > > And we sorta saw a 'normal' transition after the death of an > Emperor(ess). After Tortaalik's death, the Orb did stop and process for > a moment to determine who the next Emperor should be, and settled on > Andron. It was only because Andron happened to be running a spell to > rip the Orb away from the emperor (which became Andron) and give it to > Andron that the transition became something other than normal. But > before the explosive loop occured, we did see the Orb actually decide > who the next Emperor should be. That was Adron's interpretation of the events he went through. Adron is (to say the least) not the most reliable observer on the subject. While he did end up in temporary possession of the Orb, that does not necessarily mean that the Orb was actually "appointing him emperor", especially considering the spell he was performing at the time. If Adron *was* (however briefly) emperor, that would seem to indicate that the Cycle actually went *backwards* during the Disaster, which is quite unprecedented. Of course, so was the entire situation leading up to the Disaster, so one could certainly argue the other way. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "History is made at night. Character is what you are in the dark." [Doctor Lizardo/John Whorfin in _Buckaroo_Banzai_] From awick at cs.utah.edu Fri Jun 20 10:30:30 2003 From: awick at cs.utah.edu (Adam Wick) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 11:30:30 -0600 Subject: Imperial Transitions (How much can we trust Paarfi) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030620114714.00ab67b8@camail2.harvard.edu> Message-ID: On Friday, June 20, 2003, at 10:47 AM, charles_sumner at harvard.edu wrote: > Good observation. I had forgotten about the moment right before the > disaster when the Orb chose Adron. Although there was nothing at all > normal about the events surrounding the disaster, that scene does help > us determine what a normal transition is as we "see" the Orb making > the decision - another indication of it's intelligence. I'm not so sure. My computer frequently pauses before doing something, but I'd hardly call it intelligent. We've never seen the actual heir selection process, just that different heirs can be chosen. It's possible that choosing a heir requires some small magical registration with the orb, a sort of "by the way, o Orb, this is the one you want should the cycle be about to change to us." At which point, on dropping off the old emperor/empress, it consults the great cycle in the sky, checks its current list of heirs, and wings off to the appropriate person. I'd be interested in seeing how the orb transition works on the change to a Teckla Republic. The Republic bit suggests an election process, so the Orb would have to either wait until the next head honcho was elected, or switch in mid-reign to the most recent elected head honcho. > Also, if what Paarfi said was actually true, that throws the whole > cycle out of whack as it means the actual transition of emperors was > Phoenix Decadent --> Dragon (for a few minutes) --> Interregnum --> > Phoenix Ascendant and that just doesn't seem right. Phoenix Decadent > --> Interregnum --> Phoenix Ascendant is much more plausible from the > standpoint of the cycle itself; because if Adron really was the > emperor according to the Orb, then it should still be the Dragon reign > after the Interregnum (or possibly the Lyorn reign). I don't know about that. I'd say that the cycle hasn't switched to the new house until the Orb starts doing its jig around the next emporer's head. Since the Orb never makes it to Adron (Sethra sends it off to tPotD, or, as I prefer: Sethra kills the Orb), the cycle was in a conversion stage when Adron blew it up. I forget, did we see who the great cycle in the sky pointed to during the Interregnum? -Adam From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Jun 20 10:32:06 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:32:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: <200306201650.MAA4383401@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <200306201650.MAA4383401@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: > If Adron *was* (however briefly) emperor, that would seem to indicate that > the Cycle actually went *backwards* during the Disaster, which is quite > unprecedented. Of course, so was the entire situation leading up to the > Disaster, so one could certainly argue the other way. I've complained about this before, but now it seems to me that the Orb is be a local agent of the Cycle capable of getting out ahead of the boss. So in _Taltos_, looking at what I envision as a big pie chart, do Vlad et al. see the Phoenix slice centered vertically? Or does the Cycle grind slowly and exceedingly small, in which case they have some (if nothing else extremely economically useful) information - when the Dragons will take power. From alexx at TheWorld.com Fri Jun 20 10:34:44 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:34:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Imperial Transitions (How much can we trust Paarfi) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030620114714.00ab67b8@camail2.harvard.edu> from "charles_sumner@harvard.edu" at Jun 20, 2003 12:47:29 PM Message-ID: <200306201734.NAA4313102@shell.TheWorld.com> [snip] > As for the Zerika to Norathar transition, I can't recall if actually know > any of the details of this. We can tell from Paarfi's dedication page the > date of the hand off, but do we really know what happened? ISTR the transition being described as "peaceful" AFB, but the notes in my Timeline suggest that pgs.315-316 of FHYA are the place to check. [snip] > We know that Vlad and Cawti read Paarfi's works and consider them > to be romantic fiction, not a history of the events they're set > around. Based on that, we have to be careful about taking anything in them > as fact just because the books are as real to us as the Taltos books are. Textev on that is a bit weak. The Paarfi books that we have access to were definitely published well after the references in the Vlad books. And what we know of Paarfi's previous publishing history suggests that it was for a far more scholarly market. Of course, we only have Paarfi's own word for that. My personal feeling is that the Vlad-period references to "Paarfi romances" are jokes put in by Brust, on the theory that the amusement value was worth the anachronism. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "Negotiating with Disney is not so much like Good Cop - Bad Cop as it is like Bad Cop - AntiChrist." -- Bill Plympton. From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Jun 20 10:36:28 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 12:36:28 -0500 Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030620094209.00b1ed48@camail2.harvard.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20030620094209.00b1ed48@camail2.harvard.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20030620101748.00ab96b0@camail2.harvard.edu> <20030620144847.GD31789@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20030620173628.GE31789@infodancer.org> On Fri, Jun 20, 2003 at 09:20:10AM -0700, Philip Hart wrote: > > I strongly suspect that the Orb will go to whichever person of > > the correct house manages a coup, unless the Emperor personally > > resigns in an orderly transition. > > Of course, if you have the support of your House, your chances of > > a successful coup are much higher, thus the whole Heir business. > I don't understand how anyone can actually launch a successful coup > against an Emperor able to use the Orb, which I believe gives one the > ability to fry anyone linked to it. See Adron's hissy-cow. > Perhaps the link is the result of a > simple spell, leaving a psychic marker that the Orb recognizes. This > would explain how backwater Tecklas are linked - and possibly how Heirs > are recognized. I expect the basic link works like this -- someone performs a spell on new citizens at some point. It may even have some kind of "this is the designated Heir of House x" marker included. But I don't think that's how the Orb would actually choose. Otherwise, *we would see successful coups*. Instead, like the mandate of heaven, the Orb chooses based on whoever succeeds in taking the throne -- so long as they have a member of the right house. In an orderly transition, of course, this will coincide perfectly with the chosen Heir of the house. Only in unusual situations would things be otherwise. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Jun 20 10:55:02 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:55:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Imperial Transitions (How much can we trust Paarfi) In-Reply-To: <200306201734.NAA4313102@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <200306201734.NAA4313102@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: > ISTR the transition being described as "peaceful" AFB, but the notes in > my Timeline suggest that pgs.315-316 of FHYA are the place to check. The paperback has Khaavren trying to get into Daro's pants on pgs 315/6... > > We know that Vlad and Cawti read Paarfi's works and consider them > > to be romantic fiction, not a history of the events they're set > > around. Based on that, we have to be careful about taking anything in them > > as fact just because the books are as real to us as the Taltos books are. > > Textev on that is a bit weak. The Paarfi books that we have access to > were definitely published well after the references in the Vlad books. > And what we know of Paarfi's previous publishing history suggests that > it was for a far more scholarly market. Of course, we only have Paarfi's > own word for that. > > My personal feeling is that the Vlad-period references to "Paarfi romances" > are jokes put in by Brust, on the theory that the amusement value was > worth the anachronism. Dumb explanation - Vlad doesn't refer to Paarfi in the original but to "Historical Romance X" which Brust-the-translator, being unversed in Dragaeran lit. and knowing his audience is as well, either ignorantly or simplifyingly ascribes to Paarfi. I happen to dislike knowing that the Empire will survive smoothly to Norathar and would value a consistent belief-system allowing me to become ignorant on this point. From charles_sumner at harvard.edu Fri Jun 20 11:08:12 2003 From: charles_sumner at harvard.edu (charles_sumner at harvard.edu) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 14:08:12 -0400 Subject: Imperial Transitions (How much can we trust Paarfi) In-Reply-To: <200306201734.NAA4313102@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030620114714.00ab67b8@camail2.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030620135127.03676b80@camail2.harvard.edu> At 01:34 PM 6/20/2003 -0400, Alexx wrote: > > We know that Vlad and Cawti read Paarfi's works and consider them > > to be romantic fiction, not a history of the events they're set > > around. Based on that, we have to be careful about taking anything in > them > > as fact just because the books are as real to us as the Taltos books are. > >Textev on that is a bit weak. The Paarfi books that we have access to >were definitely published well after the references in the Vlad books. >And what we know of Paarfi's previous publishing history suggests that >it was for a far more scholarly market. Of course, we only have Paarfi's >own word for that. > >My personal feeling is that the Vlad-period references to "Paarfi romances" >are jokes put in by Brust, on the theory that the amusement value was >worth the anachronism. That'll teach me to post a long note without checking the timeline first... :-) However Alexx, don't you remember our Oz rule, Brust clearly had Vlad reading Paarfi, therefore it's our responsibility to make that fit rather than write it off as a joke. ISTR, that Vlad doesn't mentioning the titles of the Paarfi books they were reading, so it could have been something he wrote pre-Phoenix Guards. In fact, although the introductions that Paarfi wrote for himself showed him in a scholarly light ("Phoenix Guards" was a short thing he wrote for fun while working on his epic history, "Toward Beginning a Survey of Some Events Contributing to the Fall of the Empire"), it could be that he was always a hack who wrote historical romances and he was just trying to make himself sound better than he was. TBaSoSECttFotE may be the important work that he dreams of accomplishing some day, but all he really does is write popular novels. Charley Charley Sumner charles_sumner at harvard.edu "Let's not jump to any conclusions." "I didn't jump. I took a tiny step, and there conclusions were." Buffy the Vampire Slayer - "Phases" From alexx at TheWorld.com Fri Jun 20 11:44:31 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 14:44:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: from "Philip Hart" at Jun 20, 2003 10:25:27 AM Message-ID: <200306201844.OAA4369294@shell.TheWorld.com> > > "Come on, Jack and John and Jill, I've decided the Cycle has changed and > I'm off to take the Orb, protected by my elite wizard skills from what > some have called the Instafry. Let's kick in the throne room door." > "Uhh, ok boss - sizzle." "Sizzle." "Sizzle." Any "shielding" effect is hypothetical (so far), so it only requires marginally more hand-waving for such an effect to cover a group. Granted, the larger the group you want to cover, the more vigorously the hands must be waved :-) > But Paarfi has > to know this, and tell us why the Breath of Fire brigade doesn't go boom > at the end of _FHYA_. The Brigade was not attempting a military coup, or even obviously engaging in any illegal behavior (IIRC). We've only been told of the "instafry" ability in the context of "Don't bug the Emperor without a good cause". I dare say that there would be, at the least, significant societal (legal?) repercussions against even an emperor who used such an ability against a large number of noble citizens without having *damn* good cause. Now, "launching an army against the capitol" would certainly count as good cause. If this has ever happened (I don't recall any, but that doesn't rule them out), then that would suggest some sort of mass- shielding was possible. But not all coups are military in nature (refer for example to Florida in 2000, or Dallas in 1963). Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "Being in politics is like being a football coach; you have to be smart enough to understand the game, and dumb enough to think it's important." -- Eugene McCarthy From alexx at TheWorld.com Fri Jun 20 11:47:30 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 14:47:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: from "Philip Hart" at Jun 20, 2003 10:32:06 AM Message-ID: <200306201847.OAA4322978@shell.TheWorld.com> > On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > > If Adron *was* (however briefly) emperor, that would seem to indicate that > > the Cycle actually went *backwards* during the Disaster, which is quite > > unprecedented. Of course, so was the entire situation leading up to the > > Disaster, so one could certainly argue the other way. > > I've complained about this before, but now it seems to me that the Orb is > be a local agent of the Cycle capable of getting out ahead of the boss. Huh. That's a good handwave that hadn't previously occured to me. Thanks! > So in _Taltos_, looking at what I envision as a big pie chart, do Vlad et > al. see the Phoenix slice centered vertically? Or does the Cycle grind > slowly and exceedingly small, in which case they have some (if nothing > else extremely economically useful) information - when the Dragons will > take power. The "grinding slow" (nice image, btw), seems mythologically "right" to me. You are correct that that could convey valuable information -- but not many beings are in a position to access that info :-) (And it wouldn't be exact in any case -- the speed is clearly subject to significant variation.) Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "I've heard it said that all of our human perceptions might be seen as our individual windows on the Universe. The magician is consciously attempting to alter his or her window's width or its angle, so as to get a different view of the landscape outside. The schizophrenic, on the other hand, has had his or her window kicked in by some great big astral skinhead in eighteen-hole Doctor Marten's boots." -- Alan Moore in correspondence with Dave Sim about _From Hell_ From alexx at TheWorld.com Fri Jun 20 11:50:10 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 14:50:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Imperial Transitions (How much can we trust Paarfi) In-Reply-To: from "Philip Hart" at Jun 20, 2003 10:55:02 AM Message-ID: <200306201850.OAA4454431@shell.TheWorld.com> > > > ISTR the transition being described as "peaceful" AFB, but the notes in > > my Timeline suggest that pgs.315-316 of FHYA are the place to check. > > The paperback has Khaavren trying to get into Daro's pants on pgs 315/6... I was referring to the hardback. Different pagination, I guess :-( > > Textev on that is a bit weak. The Paarfi books that we have access to > > were definitely published well after the references in the Vlad books. > > And what we know of Paarfi's previous publishing history suggests that > > it was for a far more scholarly market. Of course, we only have Paarfi's > > own word for that. > > > > My personal feeling is that the Vlad-period references to "Paarfi romances" > > are jokes put in by Brust, on the theory that the amusement value was > > worth the anachronism. > > Dumb explanation - Vlad doesn't refer to Paarfi in the original but to > "Historical Romance X" which Brust-the-translator, being unversed in > Dragaeran lit. and knowing his audience is as well, either ignorantly or > simplifyingly ascribes to Paarfi. This is a slightly different shading, but not incompatible with my point. > I happen to dislike knowing that the Empire will survive smoothly to > Norathar and would value a consistent belief-system allowing me to become > ignorant on this point. Well, you could just decide that Paarfi is a fictional invention of Brust's... Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx Writing about music is like dancing about architecture. [Seen on a Nancy Button, http://www.nancybuttons.com/] From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Jun 20 12:05:02 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 12:05:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Imperial Transitions (How much can we trust Paarfi) Message-ID: <200306201904.h5KJ4wI19785@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > > My personal feeling is that the Vlad-period references to "Paarfi romances" > > are jokes put in by Brust, on the theory that the amusement value was > > worth the anachronism. I assumed that Paarfi has written more "historical romances" than just the ones Brust has translated. Hence, Vlad and Cawti were reading some of his older works. :) Chris "The morning cup of coffee has an exhilaration about it which the cheering influence of the afternoon or evening cup of tea cannot be expected to reproduce." ~ Oliver Wedell Holmes, Sr. - "Over the Teacups" (1891) From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Jun 20 12:14:31 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 15:14:31 -0400 Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb Message-ID: <311857D3.1406D3F8.00048EA6@aol.com> Jag writes: Warning, nitpicks ahead! > On Fri, 2003-06-20 at 10:30, charles_sumner at harvard.edu > wrote: > >> It's important to remember that in all of the books we've >> never seen a "normal" transition of the Orb from one ruler >> to the next. > > We've seen, or seen close to two handing offs of the Orb, > where one Emperor(ess) willingly stepped down and handed it > off to the next House. ?This happened shortly before the > beginning of FHYA, TPG actually. > and we also know Zerika hands the Orb off to Norathar > sometime before Paarfi publishes. ... FHYA, but after the publication of TPG. If we knew how much time elapsed between those books, we'd know when the transition occurred. > And we sorta saw a 'normal' transition after the death of > an Emperor(ess). ?After Tortaalik's death, the Orb did stop > and process for a moment to determine who the next Emperor > should be, and settled on Andron. No, the Orb never had a chance to choose anyone. Aliera tried to claim it in her father's name, but it rejected her (or maybe that was its first reaction to Adron's spell). Adron could not be Emperor becuase the cycle hadn't turned yet. --KG From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Jun 20 14:05:27 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 14:05:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: <311857D3.1406D3F8.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <311857D3.1406D3F8.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jun 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > Jag writes: > > > Warning, nitpicks ahead! And wrong, at that: > > And we sorta saw a 'normal' transition after the death of > > an Emperor(ess). ?After Tortaalik's death, the Orb did stop > > and process for a moment to determine who the next Emperor > > should be, and settled on Andron. > > No, the Orb never had a chance to choose anyone. Aliera > tried to claim it in her father's name, but it rejected her > (or maybe that was its first reaction to Adron's spell). > Adron could not be Emperor becuase the cycle hadn't turned > yet. We've talked about this recently - the Orb picks Adron. The Disaster is caused by his spell trying to wrest control of the Orb from the Emperor and give it to himself - but it segevs since he himself is the Emperor, at least in his view and Tazendra's. The ambiguity on this point is beautifully expressed by the variant formal address used by Aerich and the others at the time. The ambiguity arises no doubt from a poor definition of "Emperor" - it means to be the Heir of the House the Cycle points to; it also means to control the Orb, which may temporarily not have the entire overview of the universe that the Cycle has. To wax poetic, it's like what happens when a particle passes through a medium faster than the speed of light in that medium - you get a blue shockwave. From tmer at eudoramail.com Fri Jun 20 19:09:51 2003 From: tmer at eudoramail.com (Barbara Baj) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 22:09:51 -0400 Subject: Imperial Transitions (How much can we trust Paarfi) Message-ID: -- --------- Original Message --------- DATE: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 11:30:30 From: Adam Wick To: dragaera at dragaera.info Cc: >I'd be interested in seeing how the orb transition works on the change >to a Teckla Republic. The Republic bit suggests an election process, so >the Orb would have to either wait until the next head honcho was >elected, or switch in mid-reign to the most recent elected head honcho. > Don't forget that there *is* a Teckla heir to the throne. I belive it was in 500 years after where the Emperor mentioned to Jurabin that the Heir is answerable for the actions of his house (in response to some claim of rebellion/rioting/or somesuch) which implies that there's someone the Orb will recognize in a transition, no matter how the ruling goes during that time? - B Need a new email address that people can remember Check out the new EudoraMail at http://www.eudoramail.com From Gaertk at aol.com Sat Jun 21 11:59:58 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 14:59:58 -0400 Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb Message-ID: <3F0DCCB9.5521CAAF.00048EA6@aol.com> Philip Hart writes: > On Fri, 20 Jun 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > >> Jag writes: >> >> Warning, nitpicks ahead! > > And wrong, at that: > >>> And we sorta saw a 'normal' transition after the death of >>> an Emperor(ess). ?After Tortaalik's death, the Orb did >>> stop and process for a moment to determine who the next >>> Emperor should be, and settled on Andron. >> >> No, the Orb never had a chance to choose anyone. ?Aliera >> tried to claim it in her father's name, but it rejected >> her (or maybe that was its first reaction to Adron's >> spell). Adron could not be Emperor becuase the cycle >> hadn't turned yet. > > We've talked about this recently - the Orb picks Adron. >?The Disaster is caused by his spell trying to wrest control > of the Orb from the Emperor and give it to himself - but it > segevs since he himself is the Emperor, at least in his > view and Tazendra's. Does Tazendra talk about this during TPOD? (Time for a reread I guess.) Not that it matters, only Adron and the Orb have firsthand knowledge, and Paarfi can't interview Adron. And for Adron to be Emperor, the Cycle has to turn to Dragon, something *Paarfi* explicitly states didn't happen[1]. This means either Paarfi doesn't believe Adron's claim, or he simply doesn't realise he contradicted himself (again: see Khaavren's trial in TPG). [1] I can't find which page. David, if you have this already scanned in, I think the line contains the phrase "possibility no one". --KG From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sat Jun 21 12:50:57 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 12:50:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: <3F0DCCB9.5521CAAF.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <3F0DCCB9.5521CAAF.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > Philip Hart writes: > >>> And we sorta saw a 'normal' transition after the death of > >>> an Emperor(ess). ?After Tortaalik's death, the Orb did > >>> stop and process for a moment to determine who the next > >>> Emperor should be, and settled on Andron. > >> > >> No, the Orb never had a chance to choose anyone. ?Aliera > >> tried to claim it in her father's name, but it rejected > >> her (or maybe that was its first reaction to Adron's > >> spell). Adron could not be Emperor becuase the cycle > >> hadn't turned yet. > > > > We've talked about this recently - the Orb picks Adron. > >?The Disaster is caused by his spell trying to wrest control > > of the Orb from the Emperor and give it to himself - but it > > segevs since he himself is the Emperor, at least in his > > view and Tazendra's. > > Does Tazendra talk about this during TPOD? (Time for a > reread I guess.) Not that it matters, only Adron and the Orb > have firsthand knowledge, and Paarfi can't interview Adron. > And for Adron to be Emperor, the Cycle has to turn to Dragon, > something *Paarfi* explicitly states didn't happen[1]. This > means either Paarfi doesn't believe Adron's claim, or he > simply doesn't realise he contradicted himself (again: see > Khaavren's trial in TPG). You've snipped the gist of my argument, which is that you've conflated "being chosen by the Orb" and "being Emperor". You were arguing about the former and here argue about the latter. The reference to Tazendra above is to page 528 of _FHYA_ the paperback, where she concurs with Adron's assertion that he is now the Orb-Emperor. We don't know if he is the Cycle-Emperor (aka the Emperor) as far as I know - maybe the Cycle can grind backwards (again, I'm arguing the Orb makes a local choice which under extraordinary circumstances not programmed for may be wrong, so this isn't pertinent to the question you addressed above). As to what Paarfi knows or doesn't know, he has asserted talking to Sethra (though I find it to believe she would submit to an interview), and she may have an informed opinion on the subject of Orb-choice. Now, the above is one reading of the Text in question - it's of course possible the fatal crash described by Adron as reported by Paarfi occurred differently - but until we have more definitive info on the matter, I think it has to stand as the default explanation. - Where does Paarfi contradict himself in Khaavren's interrogation? From agrajag at dragaera.net Sat Jun 21 13:46:43 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 21 Jun 2003 16:46:43 -0400 Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: References: <3F0DCCB9.5521CAAF.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <1056228403.2175.10.camel@loiosh> On Sat, 2003-06-21 at 15:50, Philip Hart wrote: > You've snipped the gist of my argument, which is that you've conflated > "being chosen by the Orb" and "being Emperor". You were arguing about the > former and here argue about the latter. The reference to Tazendra above > is to page 528 of _FHYA_ the paperback, where she concurs with Adron's > assertion that he is now the Orb-Emperor. We don't know if he is the > Cycle-Emperor (aka the Emperor) as far as I know - maybe the Cycle can > grind backwards (again, I'm arguing the Orb makes a local choice which > under extraordinary circumstances not programmed for may be wrong, so this > isn't pertinent to the question you addressed above). As to what Paarfi > knows or doesn't know, he has asserted talking to Sethra (though I find it > to believe she would submit to an interview), and she may have an informed > opinion on the subject of Orb-choice. It is mentioned in one of the books (_Taltos_, I believe) that there is some disagreement as to what is cause and what is affect. Some believe that the Cycle turns and causes worldly events to change who is Emperor, while others believe that worldly events cause the Cycle to turn. I prefer to think that it can work both ways. For sake of argument, lets assume that worldly events can cause the Cycle to change. So, we have a Dragon Heir at the head of an army that is taking Dragaera City. The Emperor dies. The Orb sees these events and decides that the Dragon Heir should now be Emperor, so it goes to him. If Adron had not been using his spell, then we could look at events as causing the Orb to chose a new Emperor, which then causes the Cycle to turn. However, as we all know, Adron did have that spell going, so before the Cycle could turn, chaos took over and the Cycle stopped. Paarfi did indicate that there was a question on if the Cycle had turned or not, but I think I'd consider Morrolan and Aliera's views on the Cycle slightly more enlightened. From mam at theworld.com Sat Jun 21 14:33:47 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 17:33:47 -0400 Subject: question. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Old stuff in the mailbox, and I don't remember if this ever got a reply: On Tue, 29 Apr 2003, BLACKSTOCK, ROB wrote: #In "Yendi," Sethra says that Sethra the Younger was the only apprentice #she ever had who never tried to kill her. #Does that mean Tazendra will eventually turn on Sethra? #I always assumed that Tazendra blew herself up later in the series. #Could it have been Sethra's work instead? In POTD Tazendra is guarding the approach to Dzur Mountain that Piro arrives by, but that doesn't mean she's SL's apprentice. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From TimN at rcn.com Sat Jun 21 17:11:00 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 20:11:00 -0400 Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb References: <3F0DCCB9.5521CAAF.00048EA6@aol.com> <1056228403.2175.10.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: <001101c33852$e00985a0$d916fea9@ananda> I've always assumed that the "cycle" -- existing in metaphorical respresentation as the big wheel in the paths -- is not exactly subject to being effected by anything other than its own whim. You cannot say "Ok, the cycle has turned *at this moment*" because time does not exist in a 1 to 1 fashion in the paths. Hm, to clarify that... The orb may have decided on Adron, and the disaster may have happened just as Paarfi described, but the true cycle would have continued pointing to the Phoenix -- and because of this, destiny *required* that Adron not take full control of the orb. It is after all, the will of the Gods, who are beyond mortal comprehension. Except Verra -- she's just damn cool. ;) - Tim From mtiller at ntlworld.com Sun Jun 22 12:15:54 2003 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 20:15:54 +0100 Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000701c338f2$b782f580$0101a8c0@markspc> -----Original Message----- From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU] >So in _Taltos_, looking at what I envision as a big pie chart, do Vlad et al. see the Phoenix slice centered vertically? >Or does the Cycle grind slowly and exceedingly small, in which case they have some (if nothing else extremely >economically useful) information - when the Dragons will take power. IIRC, in Taltos they talk about how nice it would be to be in front of the Cycle when it turned. I took this to imply it was in the middle of the Phoenix "slice" and would moe to the middle of the Dragon "Slice". Mark From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Jun 22 12:44:28 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 12:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: <000701c338f2$b782f580$0101a8c0@markspc> References: <000701c338f2$b782f580$0101a8c0@markspc> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 2003, Mark Tiller wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU] > >So in _Taltos_, looking at what I envision as a big pie chart, do Vlad et > al. see the Phoenix slice centered vertically? >Or does the Cycle grind > slowly and exceedingly small, in which case they have some (if nothing else > extremely economically useful) information - when the Dragons will take > power. > IIRC, in Taltos they talk about how nice it would be to be in front of the > Cycle when it turned. I took this to imply it was in the middle of the > Phoenix "slice" and would move to the middle of the Dragon "Slice". Ok, another problem with the "grinding slow" (full disclosure, that's from a committee of poets or the local version of the Cycle, take your pick) picture is that the apparent difference between reign A and reign B would be a few microns. So another way to envision the Cycle would be 17 House slices interleaved with blank slices. So we get the click over as in _T_ as well as the mill-of-Gods effect. Vlad is vague on this point in _T_. From Gaertk at aol.com Sun Jun 22 16:52:48 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 19:52:48 -0400 Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb Message-ID: <678188F6.77C3BEA8.00048EA6@aol.com> Philip Hart writes: > You've snipped the gist of my argument, which is that > you've conflated "being chosen by the Orb" and "being > Emperor". ?You were arguing about the former and here argue > about the latter. Sorry, I didn't read that part very closely. However, I think you're misinterpretting that scene. Aerich and Adron are talking about how to tell if the Cycle has turned (since they can't see the big wheel themselves) and the only way they come up with for testing this is to try to kill the Emperor. If the Orb lets you, then the Cycle has turned and you're the new Emperor; if the Orb defends the Emperor, then the Cycle hasn't turned and you're a traitor (and likely dead). Compare to the Chinese(?) concept of Divine Mandate and the death magic in Bujold's _Curse of Chalion_. There was no indication that the Orb would try to choose a new Emperor without checking the Cycle first. Pure speculation: I believe that the Cycle (big wheel with animals in the Halls of Judgement) is just a projection of the Orb so that the Lords of Judgement can see the current state of the Empire. To me, this makes more sense than having the Orb controlled by it. > - Where does Paarfi contradict himself in Khaavren's > interrogation? He says that the duel that killed the Warlord's brother was caused by him interrupting a meeting between Seodra and the Warlord (which, if true, would make the Warlord a complete idiot for bringing up the matter). That meeting was between Gyorg and Seodra. --KG From Gaertk at aol.com Sun Jun 22 17:04:48 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 20:04:48 -0400 Subject: Brust's weblog Message-ID: <64A5923E.1ED26250.00048EA6@aol.com> Today I was thinking of asking Brust if he could give us any more info about the mystery he mentioned in his weblog on Oct. 10. And then I checked there for updates and saw that he did! So here's a couple more questions for him: Don who? Will it also be SF? If so, will there be any connections to Dragaera? (Other than Devera's appearance, of course.) --KG PS. "Mytersy" would be a good name for an invented species. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Jun 22 18:04:16 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 18:04:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: <678188F6.77C3BEA8.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <678188F6.77C3BEA8.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > Philip Hart writes: > > > You've snipped the gist of my argument, which is that > > you've conflated "being chosen by the Orb" and "being > > Emperor". ?You were arguing about the former and here argue > > about the latter. > > Sorry, I didn't read that part very closely. > > However, I think you're misinterpretting that scene. Aerich > and Adron are talking about how to tell if the Cycle has > turned (since they can't see the big wheel themselves) and > the only way they come up with for testing this is to try to > kill the Emperor. You've got the wrong scene - I was referring to the end of Chapter 34, where (as I quoted earlier) Adron says that his anti-Emperor pro-Adron spell is fighting itself, leading to a core dump of power. A bit earlier, we see the Orb turn grey in mourning for Tortaalik while "it interrogated the Cycle and searched, in its own way, for the new Emperor." We then see it turn white. Sethra immediately realizes Adron is about to go boom - "she had but seconds to act". So we have the Orb ask its boss what comes after Phoenix, we see it find Adron, then we see it run into a null pointer - or anyway this is the simplest way to read the evidence. > If the Orb lets you, then the Cycle has > turned and you're the new Emperor; if the Orb defends the > Emperor, then the Cycle hasn't turned and you're a traitor > (and likely dead). Compare to the Chinese(?) concept of > Divine Mandate and the death magic in Bujold's _Curse of > Chalion_. > > There was no indication that the Orb would try to choose a > new Emperor without checking the Cycle first. > > Pure speculation: I believe that the Cycle (big wheel with > animals in the Halls of Judgement) is just a projection of > the Orb so that the Lords of Judgement can see the current > state of the Empire. To me, this makes more sense than > having the Orb controlled by it. In _Taltos_ Vlad reports in Chapter 16 that "Everyone I've asked insists that this thing _is_ the Cycle in every meaningful way, not merely its physical representation." In _TPotD_ there is no sense at the grand conclave that the supposed destruction of the Orb has anything to do with the Cycle. The Orb, an artifact built by human hands, is to my mind obviously not capable of performing the God-like function of the Cycle, arranging for the myriad coincidences needed to force a complex society through its odd dance over and over. Nobody fantasizes about twisting the Orb around to point to the next House; nobody studies Cycle construction. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Jun 22 18:26:01 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 18:26:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: <200306201844.OAA4369294@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <200306201844.OAA4369294@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > But Paarfi has to know this, and tell us why the Breath of Fire > > brigade doesn't go boom at the end of _FHYA_. > > The Brigade was not attempting a military coup, or even obviously engaging > in any illegal behavior (IIRC). They obstruct Khaavren on Imperial business; and at the end of the novel they are in obvious rebellion. Here's part 2 of my anti-coup theory (which may just be my Tortaalik is an idiot theory) - couldn't the Emperor instead of the Instafry feature use a "delisting" figure and simply remove the Orb privileges of anyone in rebellion? > We've only been told of the "instafry" ability in the context of "Don't > bug the Emperor without a good cause". I dare say that there would be, > at the least, significant societal (legal?) repercussions against even > an emperor who used such an ability against a large number of noble > citizens without having *damn* good cause. Yes, even if they were rebels I think. > Now, "launching an army against the capitol" would certainly count as > good cause. If this has ever happened (I don't recall any, but that > doesn't rule them out), then that would suggest some sort of mass- > shielding was possible. See above for the newer, gentler Instafry. > But not all coups are military in nature (refer for example to Florida in > 2000, or Dallas in 1963). Ok, I'll give you Florida, though imho you need to give a time range starting in the 90s. I can't see how 1963 was a coup d'etat though. From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Mon Jun 23 01:30:32 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 08:30:32 +0000 Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb Message-ID: Philip Hart wrote on 22 Jun 2003: >They obstruct Khaavren on Imperial business; and at the end of the novel >they are in obvious rebellion. Here's part 2 of my anti-coup theory >(which may just be my Tortaalik is an idiot theory) - couldn't the Emperor >instead of the Instafry feature use a "delisting" figure and simply remove >the Orb privileges of anyone in rebellion? In FHYA Sethra said that she has fighted with the Empire (or the Emperor, I do not remember well and I'm lazy to look for it) as well as against it, but never against the cycle. I do not think that even Sethra would win in a battle between a rebel army sorceryless against the Imperial army with all its magical power ready. In fact, when she explained in Dragon the military use of sorcery, it results that it is not so important because it is balanced by the opponent use of it. Therefore, if there is no sorcery in one side there wouldn't be any chance to win, would it? It can be said that Sethra is the best general never existed, but it does not mean that she is invencible against all the odds. On the other, it may be thought that the Orb would not allow the current Emperor to broke the rebel's link just if the cycle has turned. In this case, it will mean that it is an ultimate measure because it will be the only real test of the exact Cycla phase (well, there is second test, but it implies going to hte Path of the Deaths and chech the wheel, and its quite tricky), so if the Emperor try it and he didn't manage, everybody who know his try will be aware that the rebellion is rightfull because the cycle has changed. According to old Ockham I think that the link cannot be broken as a punishment or attack but just in really special situations. _________________________________________________________________ Multiplica por cinco el tama?o de tu buz?n de correo y env?a adjuntos de hasta 2 Mb con MSN Almacenamiento Extra. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=es-es From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Mon Jun 23 03:38:38 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:38:38 +0000 Subject: Irregular verbs Message-ID: Thank you very much. It is really nice from you, really. I try to read twice my messages before I send them, but as long as I do not use a correction tool it is impossible not making mistakes. Regarding this, I must thank all you because even when I ask you questions that at least for an english-speaker may sound quite silly, you allways make the effort to answer me. Therefore if any of you need any help in Spanish or Catalonian, here I am :) Iv?n. >From: "Casey Rousseau" >To: 'Iv?n Rebollo' >Subject: Irregular verbs >Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 06:13:50 -0400 > > > >You wrote: > > In FHYA Sethra said that she has fighted with the Empire (or > >Your English is usually quit good, though this wasn't your only grammatical >error in this post, but this particular verb can be tricky. The key is >that >the past participle of fight is fought. After you get that, it's not too >bad. > >to fight >She will fight >She fights >She fought >She was fighting >She has fought >She would fight >She has been fighting >She had fought > > _________________________________________________________________ Localiza y ponte en contacto con tus antiguos compa?eros de clase en MSN Compa?eros. http://mipasado.msn.es/ From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Jun 23 06:11:42 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 06:11:42 -0700 Subject: Brust's weblog In-Reply-To: <64A5923E.1ED26250.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030623061102.01d5c670@localhost> At 08:04 PM 6/22/2003 -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >Today I was thinking of asking Brust if he could give us any >more info about the mystery he mentioned in his weblog on >Oct. 10. And then I checked there for updates and saw that >he did! > >So here's a couple more questions for him: > >Don who? Don Hill. He's the guy who taught me to play Hold 'em. >Will it also be SF? Nope. From agrajag at dragaera.net Mon Jun 23 07:21:55 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 23 Jun 2003 10:21:55 -0400 Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: References: <678188F6.77C3BEA8.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <1056378115.2107.2.camel@loiosh> On Sun, 2003-06-22 at 21:04, Philip Hart wrote: > So we have the Orb ask its boss what comes > after Phoenix, we see it find Adron, then we see it run into a null > pointer - or anyway this is the simplest way to read the evidence. I always thought of it as an infinite loop.. infinitely taking the Orb away from Adron and giving it back to him, except with each iteration through the loop, it builds up more and more power until there's more power/chaos than the spell/Adron can handle. Then things get interesting. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Jun 23 08:07:52 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 08:07:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: <1056378115.2107.2.camel@loiosh> References: <678188F6.77C3BEA8.00048EA6@aol.com> <1056378115.2107.2.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Jag wrote: > On Sun, 2003-06-22 at 21:04, Philip Hart wrote: > > > So we have the Orb ask its boss what comes > > after Phoenix, we see it find Adron, then we see it run into a null > > pointer - or anyway this is the simplest way to read the evidence. > > I always thought of it as an infinite loop.. infinitely taking the Orb > away from Adron and giving it back to him, except with each iteration > through the loop, it builds up more and more power until there's more > power/chaos than the spell/Adron can handle. Then things get > interesting. On the one hand, that's more plausible than a null pointer - on the other, Paarfi doesn't describe any iteration. On the right, since the whole process takes either a few seconds ('Sethra has a few seconds to act') or a few hours (two pages of Paarfi dialogue) it's not clear whether we should see Adron pulsing. On the left, it would be nice if Adron was in part done in by a primitive programming language. Maybe that's part of the upgrade the Orb got in the Paths - they rewrote the code in klava... From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Jun 23 08:20:39 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 08:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Iv?n Rebollo wrote: > > On the other, it may be thought that the Orb would not allow the current > Emperor to broke the rebel's link just if the cycle has turned. As we eventually learn, the Cycle didn't turn (under the one-way theory). > > In this case, it will mean that it is an ultimate measure because it will be > the only real test of the exact Cycla phase (well, there is second test, > but it implies going to hte Path of the Deaths and chech the wheel, and its > quite tricky), so if the Emperor try it and he didn't manage, everybody who > know his try will be aware that the rebellion is rightfull because the cycle > has changed. > > According to old Ockham I think that the link cannot be broken as a > punishment or attack but just in really special situations. Occam's razor tells me that your "ultimate measure" test can't be right because it would have been urged on Tortaalik or at least mentioned in the Aerich/Adron discussion of pride. If the portent-haunted end of the 17th Cycle isn't a special situation, what would be? New theory: the Disaster wasn't Adron's fault - he was manipulated into it by the Cycle, which wanted to get its (minions) hands on the Orb, to establish a Lesser Sea of Chaos (for future use against the J., perhaps), and to get rid of dingy old Dragaera City with its out-moded architecture. From agrajag at dragaera.net Mon Jun 23 08:29:46 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 23 Jun 2003 11:29:46 -0400 Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: References: <678188F6.77C3BEA8.00048EA6@aol.com> <1056378115.2107.2.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: <1056382185.2107.9.camel@loiosh> On Mon, 2003-06-23 at 11:07, Philip Hart wrote: > Maybe that's part of > the upgrade the Orb got in the Paths - they rewrote the code in klava... Hm.. so you're suggesting that the slow down in execution time with klava gives the sorcerors more time to gather energy and thus can do more complicated spells? From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Jun 23 08:41:49 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 08:41:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: <1056382185.2107.9.camel@loiosh> References: <678188F6.77C3BEA8.00048EA6@aol.com> <1056378115.2107.2.camel@loiosh> <1056382185.2107.9.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Jag wrote: > On Mon, 2003-06-23 at 11:07, Philip Hart wrote: > > Maybe that's part of > > the upgrade the Orb got in the Paths - they rewrote the code in klava... > > Hm.. so you're suggesting that the slow down in execution time with > klava gives the sorcerors more time to gather energy and thus can do > more complicated spells? Remember, the Orb acts to couple the sorceror's brain to the Great Sea. Presumably it runs much faster than even a souped-up human brain and so a slow language allows more precision and hence better spells. I like to think that it was possible to teleport before, but you couldn't allow any memory leaks, and moving 10**30 atoms exposes any missing deletes... From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Mon Jun 23 09:22:07 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 16:22:07 +0000 Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb Message-ID: ON Monday 23, Philip Hart wrote: > > In this case, it will mean that it is an ultimate measure because it >will be > > the only real test of the exact Cycla phase (well, there is second >test, > > but it implies going to hte Path of the Deaths and chech the wheel, and >its > > quite tricky), so if the Emperor try it and he didn't manage, everybody >who > > know his try will be aware that the rebellion is rightfull because the >cycle > > has changed. > > > > According to old Ockham I think that the link cannot be broken as a > > punishment or attack but just in really special situations. > >Occam's razor tells me that your "ultimate measure" test can't be right >because it would have been urged on Tortaalik or at least mentioned in the >Aerich/Adron discussion of pride. If the portent-haunted end of the 17th >Cycle isn't a special situation, what would be? That's my point,although I didn't express it properly; if Tortaalik could have broken the link of Adronn with the Orb he would have done it, wouldn't he? When I said that it can be broken just in really special situations I wasn't thinking about the Emperor but in Verra and her fellows. Well, in fact I was thinking in Mr. Burst, who is able to broke the link and anything he wants, especially if we agree that it cannot be broken. :) > >New theory: the Disaster wasn't Adron's fault - he was manipulated into it >by the Cycle, which wanted to get its (minions) hands on the Orb, to >establish a Lesser Sea of Chaos (for future use against the J., perhaps), >and to get rid of dingy old Dragaera City with its out-moded architecture. Interesting, it introduces a sensitive aspect of the cycle that I haven't seen discussed here, despite we have discussed the sensitiveness of Great Weapons, Spellbreaker, Artifacts and even of some of the members of this mail list. _________________________________________________________________ Dale rienda suelta a tu tiempo libre. Encuentra mil ideas para exprimir tu ocio con MSN Entretenimiento. http://entretenimiento.msn.es/ From alexx at TheWorld.com Mon Jun 23 09:47:47 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 12:47:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: <001101c33852$e00985a0$d916fea9@ananda> from "Timothy Nelson" at Jun 21, 2003 08:11:00 PM Message-ID: <200306231647.MAA4664062@shell.TheWorld.com> > It is after all, the will of the Gods, who are beyond mortal comprehension. Are we sure even of that? I don't recall any precedence having been established with regards to the gods and the Cycle. It may be that the Cycle is a tool of the gods, but I view it as at least equally likely to be the other way around. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx The border between the Real and the Unreal is not fixed, but just marks the last place where rival gangs of shamans fought each other to a standstill. [Seen on a Nancy Button, http://www.nancybuttons.com/] From alexx at TheWorld.com Mon Jun 23 09:57:45 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 12:57:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: from "Philip Hart" at Jun 22, 2003 06:26:01 PM Message-ID: <200306231657.MAA4585657@shell.TheWorld.com> > On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > > The Brigade was not attempting a military coup, or even obviously engaging > > in any illegal behavior (IIRC). > > They obstruct Khaavren on Imperial business; and at the end of the novel > they are in obvious rebellion. Here's part 2 of my anti-coup theory > (which may just be my Tortaalik is an idiot theory) - couldn't the Emperor Tortaalik *is* an idiot, but that's a separate issue :-) > instead of the Instafry feature use a "delisting" figure and simply remove > the Orb privileges of anyone in rebellion? I would suspect that that's covered by the same (perhaps only implicit) "due process" clause; doing it without clear and obvious cause will cause bad repercussions for the emperor. OTOH, it may not even be possible. We have at least anecdotal evidence of the "instafry" spell, but I don't recall ever hearing of a "break link to the Orb" spell. Hey, here's a wacky new idea! If we go with the "grinding slow" model of the Cycle, perhaps certain actions are known to cause it to incrementally advance. If the emperor is facing a rebellion, taking too heavy a hand against it might actually *cause* the Cycle to turn, and ensure his own overthrow! > > But not all coups are military in nature (refer for example to Florida in > > 2000, or Dallas in 1963). > > Ok, I'll give you Florida, though imho you need to give a time range > starting in the 90s. I can't see how 1963 was a coup d'etat though. Some of the conspiracy theories have Lyndon Johnson "in the loop" for the assassination, which would definitely make it count as a coup. It's been too long since I read the relevant books to cite details or sources, and is also way off-topic. Let's just leave it as a hypothetical example. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx 2 + 2 = 5, for moderately large values of two. [Seen on a Nancy Button, http://www.nancybuttons.com/] From gomi at speakeasy.net Mon Jun 23 10:02:39 2003 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: <200306231657.MAA4585657@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > > But not all coups are military in nature (refer for example to Florida in > > > 2000, or Dallas in 1963). It is difficult for me to see how off-handedly referring to the outcome of the 2000 election as a 'coup' can result in anything other than a long and tedious flamewar, accompanied by an inevitable and simultaneous coarsening and lowering of the standards of discourse hereabouts, and must therefore ask you nicely to refrain. gomi From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Jun 23 10:13:22 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:13:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Gomi no Sensei wrote: > > On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > > On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > > > > But not all coups are military in nature (refer for example to Florida in > > > > 2000, or Dallas in 1963). > > It is difficult for me to see how off-handedly referring to the outcome > of the 2000 election as a 'coup' can result in anything other than a long > and tedious flamewar, accompanied by an inevitable and simultaneous > coarsening and lowering of the standards of discourse hereabouts, and must > therefore ask you nicely to refrain. It can fail to result in a flamewar by everyone taking a deep breath and ignoring what they consider provocative. If you want to compare homosexuality to bestiality or whatever the conservative coup-comment- equivalent is, I'll remain mum. If nothing else, you might consider whether 1963 was clearly a coup attempt and how that reflects on the writer's opinion about 2000... From gomi at speakeasy.net Mon Jun 23 10:24:18 2003 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Gomi no Sensei wrote: > > On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > > > On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > > > > But not all coups are military in nature (refer for example to Florida in > > > > > 2000, or Dallas in 1963). > > > > It is difficult for me to see how off-handedly referring to the outcome > > of the 2000 election as a 'coup' can result in anything other than a long > > and tedious flamewar, accompanied by an inevitable and simultaneous > > coarsening and lowering of the standards of discourse hereabouts, and must > > therefore ask you nicely to refrain. > > It can fail to result in a flamewar by everyone taking a deep breath and > ignoring what they consider provocative. If you want to compare > homosexuality to bestiality or whatever the conservative coup-comment- > equivalent is, I'll remain mum. If nothing else, you might consider > whether 1963 was clearly a coup attempt and how that reflects on the > writer's opinion about 2000... Responding to a polite request to cease trolling with more trolling is not what one would generally consider to be 'on.' I feel that, in order to test your advice re: ignoring provocative material, someone really should post a large batch of such material, just to gauge the lack of reaction. It seems to me that it would ill-serve the list's stated purpose, however. gomi From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Jun 23 10:26:57 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:26:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: <200306231657.MAA4585657@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <200306231657.MAA4585657@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: > I would suspect that that's covered by the same (perhaps only implicit) > "due process" clause; doing it without clear and obvious cause will > cause bad repercussions for the emperor. I think we would have heard it discussed in _FHYA_ if it was possible - unless it is a state secret unused by Tortaalik because he's an idiot. Maybe there are no successful coups against Athyras... > OTOH, it may not even be possible. We have at least anecdotal evidence of > the "instafry" spell, but I don't recall ever hearing of a "break link to > the Orb" spell. I don't claim any precedent for delinking - it just seemed obviously easy. Perhaps we'll learn much more about linkage soon, and have more ground to stand on while handwaving, but the use of black Phoenix stone to make one psychically invisible doesn't seem to impede one's sorcery (does it? I never really understood Vlad's use of both types, and his defense against witchcraft locator spells), so I suspect my earlier "psychic tracer" theory is wrong. Also note that if the user could shield himself from the Orb (and deactivate his link) then presumably Adron would have done so. From mam at theworld.com Mon Jun 23 10:53:19 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 13:53:19 -0400 Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jun 2003, Iv?n Rebollo wrote: #ON Monday 23, Philip Hart wrote: #> #>Occam's razor tells me that your "ultimate measure" test can't be right #>because it would have been urged on Tortaalik or at least mentioned in the #>Aerich/Adron discussion of pride. If the portent-haunted end of the 17th #>Cycle isn't a special situation, what would be? # #That's my point,although I didn't express it properly; if Tortaalik could #have broken the link of Adronn with the Orb he would have done it, wouldn't #he? As you or somebody else pointed out, Tortaalik isn't the brightest torch in the basket. He might have been able to do it but 1. not known he could 2. not remembered he could 3. not have thought of it 4. have thought of it but dithered about it till it was too late -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Jun 23 11:39:04 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 11:39:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb Message-ID: <200306231838.h5NIcvI25015@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > It is difficult for me to see how off-handedly referring to the outcome > of the 2000 election as a 'coup' can result in anything other than a long > and tedious flamewar, accompanied by an inevitable and simultaneous > coarsening and lowering of the standards of discourse hereabouts, and must > therefore ask you nicely to refrain. But refering to Dallas in '63 wouldn't create the same outcome? Just curious.... Chris (Who agrees with Bill Hicks in regards to Dallas in '63....:) "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, son." - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Jun 23 11:41:52 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 11:41:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb Message-ID: <200306231841.h5NIfjI25557@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > I feel that, in order to test your advice re: ignoring provocative material, > someone really should post a large batch of such material, just to gauge the > lack of reaction. It seems to me that it would ill-serve the list's stated > purpose, however. Ooo, oooh! Any takers? If no one else will, I'll take a shot. I'm sure I could come up with something provocative enough to piss off, say, 80% of the list, at least..... Chris (Who's really just joking, but it's funny to think about....;) "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From TimN at rcn.com Mon Jun 23 12:01:01 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:01:01 -0400 Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb References: Message-ID: <003101c339b9$cae2cca0$d916fea9@ananda> Let's not. Honestly, I came here for naked pictures of Aliera, but since I havn't seen any yet, I have to settle for well-thought-out conversation and prose. :) Damn, she's gonna challenge me to a duel now. Anybody wanna harbor a fugitive? ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: How does someone get a link to the Orb [ Massive snip ] From casey at trinityhartford.org Mon Jun 23 12:06:24 2003 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:06:24 -0400 Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: <003101c339b9$cae2cca0$d916fea9@ananda> Message-ID: Tim writ: > Damn, she's gonna challenge me to a duel now. Anybody wanna harbor a > fugitive? Yeah, right. Did you forget _which_ GW she weilds? Good luck, bub. Maybe if you go straight to Castle Black and apologize while she's killing you she'll revivify you afterwards. :) C. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Jun 23 12:04:34 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 12:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb Message-ID: <200306231904.h5NJ4RI00974@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Let's not. Honestly, I came here for naked pictures of Aliera, but since I > havn't seen any yet, I have to settle for well-thought-out conversation and > prose. :) > > Damn, she's gonna challenge me to a duel now. Anybody wanna harbor a > fugitive? Hide you from Pathfinder? Yeah, right; I'll do that right after I get Sethra and Verra in a room together and tell them that they're ugly old bits who should spend their time crocheting instead of meddling in the affairs of their betters. I'm sure I could find a faster way to commit suicide, but it would take me awhile.... Chris "He is a lover of his country who rebukes and does not excuse its sins." - Frederick Douglass From genji_77 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 23 12:06:33 2003 From: genji_77 at hotmail.com (Genji) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 12:06:33 -0700 Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb References: <003101c339b9$cae2cca0$d916fea9@ananda> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Timothy Nelson" Cc: "Dragaera Mailing List" Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 12:01 PM Subject: Re: How does someone get a link to the Orb Let's not. Honestly, I came here for naked pictures of Aliera, but since I havn't seen any yet, I have to settle for well-thought-out conversation and prose. :) Damn, she's gonna challenge me to a duel now. Anybody wanna harbor a fugitive? ----------------------- Uh oh, think you just got Mario after you for free. From TimN at rcn.com Mon Jun 23 12:15:25 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:15:25 -0400 Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb References: <003101c339b9$cae2cca0$d916fea9@ananda> Message-ID: <004701c339bb$cdd40e40$d916fea9@ananda> What can I say? It's a natural talent. Actually, if both Mario *and* Aliera were after me, survival would just be a matter of making sure they met each other *first*. ----- Original Message ----- From: Genji To: Dragaera Mailing List Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 3:06 PM Subject: Re: How does someone get a link to the Orb ----------------------- > > Uh oh, think you just got Mario after you for free. From genji_77 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 23 12:13:00 2003 From: genji_77 at hotmail.com (Genji) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 12:13:00 -0700 Subject: Jhereg reign References: <003101c339b9$cae2cca0$d916fea9@ananda> Message-ID: I was just pondering something... When the emperor is a Jhereg, what is law enforcement like? I just had this vision of the phoenix guard arresting people for NOT gambling that made me chuckle. From casey at trinityhartford.org Mon Jun 23 12:29:58 2003 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:29:58 -0400 Subject: Jhereg reign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Genji wrote: > I was just pondering something... When the emperor is a > Jhereg, what is law enforcement like? I just had this > vision of the phoenix guard arresting people for NOT > gambling that made me chuckle. Um, that would be the Jhereg Guard, not the Phoenix Guard. Still, I think you're right. The concept of law enforcement would be ... different under a Jhereg reign. Casey From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Mon Jun 23 12:34:43 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:34:43 -0400 Subject: Jhereg reign In-Reply-To: References: <003101c339b9$cae2cca0$d916fea9@ananda> Message-ID: <20030623193443.GA35505@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Mon, Jun 23, 2003 at 12:13:00PM -0700, Genji wrote: > I was just pondering something... When the emperor is a Jhereg, what is law > enforcement like? I would have to say it's not much like law enforcement. From rblackstock at ersgroup.com Mon Jun 23 12:33:11 2003 From: rblackstock at ersgroup.com (BLACKSTOCK, ROB) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:33:11 -0400 Subject: Jhereg reign Message-ID: Kind of like living back in Louisiana. -----Original Message----- From: Casey Rousseau [mailto:casey at trinityhartford.org] Still, I think you're right. The concept of law enforcement would be ... different under a Jhereg reign. Casey From grapawy at yahoo.com Mon Jun 23 12:46:12 2003 From: grapawy at yahoo.com (Greg Rapawy) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 12:46:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jhereg reign In-Reply-To: <20030623193443.GA35505@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <20030623194612.94940.qmail@web21110.mail.yahoo.com> --- Steve Simmons wrote: > On Mon, Jun 23, 2003 at 12:13:00PM -0700, Genji wrote: >> I was just pondering something... When the emperor is a >> Jhereg, what is law enforcement like? > I would have to say it's not much like law enforcement. You forget SKZB's antiprohibitionist sympathies. I suspect he would say it's like law enforcement as Vlad depicts it, only *more so* -- more speeches by the Emperor about the importance of public morality, more announcements of public crackdowns on all sorts of vice, more public busts by the Guard of various entrepreneurs who haven't made the proper contributions, or who had the misfortune to make them to the wrong faction of the Organization. And, as a result, higher prices, tighter control by the Jhereg, and more money flowing into their coffers. See Vlad's comments to Ensign T___ (what was her name again?) towards the end of Orca, about the relation between the Organization and the Empire; Paarfi's comments on the nature of the transition to a Jhereg reign; and the deal struck between Greycat and the redheaded Jhereg in the middle of _FHYA_. -- Greg From genji_77 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 23 13:18:18 2003 From: genji_77 at hotmail.com (Genji) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 13:18:18 -0700 Subject: Jhereg reign References: <20030623194612.94940.qmail@web21110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- You forget SKZB's antiprohibitionist sympathies. I suspect he would say it's like law enforcement as Vlad depicts it, only *more so* -- more speeches by the Emperor about the importance of public morality, more announcements of public crackdowns on all sorts of vice, more public busts by the Guard of various entrepreneurs who haven't made the proper contributions, or who had the misfortune to make them to the wrong faction of the Organization. And, as a result, higher prices, tighter control by the Jhereg, and more money flowing into their coffers. ----------------------- That brings up an interesting idea ..... would they promote tighter control by the government leading to higher prices in the "illegal operations" of the house, or would they get while the getting is good and mainstream their operations for maximum coverage while there are few restrictions? This latter would certainly get every last imperial from the teckla. From kisc at insaneninjahero.com Mon Jun 23 13:21:43 2003 From: kisc at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 14:21:43 -0600 Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: <200306231904.h5NJ4RI00974@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: > > Let's not. Honestly, I came here for naked pictures of Aliera, > but since I > > havn't seen any yet, I have to settle for well-thought-out > conversation and > > prose. :) > > > > Damn, she's gonna challenge me to a duel now. Anybody wanna harbor a > > fugitive? > > Hide you from Pathfinder? Yeah, right; I'll do that right > after I get Sethra and Verra in a room together and tell them > that they're ugly old bits who should spend their time crocheting > instead of meddling in the affairs of their betters. > > I'm sure I could find a faster way to commit suicide, but it would > take me awhile.... > ... get the two of them in a room with lots of balloons and some baby oil, set up a digital camera, wave expansively, and say something like "Just have fun." What would you call people who subscribed to that website? Necrodeiphiliacs? *shudder* Kisc - I seem to be completely out of my league here when it comes to well thought out discourse... but silly? I can do silly. From warlord at dragon.com Mon Jun 23 14:05:36 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:05:36 -0400 Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: <004701c339bb$cdd40e40$d916fea9@ananda> Message-ID: Since it's "wild theory day" too late again. Because Mario is the soul that is bound to Pathfinder. Warlord Queen of Gor: what have you done to the prisoner?! Tom Servo: We cancelled it; it was too obscure. --- MST3K > > What can I say? It's a natural talent. > > Actually, if both Mario *and* Aliera were after me, survival > would just be a > matter of making sure they met each other *first*. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Genji > To: Dragaera Mailing List > Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 3:06 PM > Subject: Re: How does someone get a link to the Orb > > > ----------------------- > > > > Uh oh, think you just got Mario after you for free. > > > From TimN at rcn.com Mon Jun 23 14:29:05 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:29:05 -0400 Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb References: Message-ID: <001501c339ce$7a408200$d916fea9@ananda> Eh? What did I miss? Is this canon? - T ----- Original Message ----- > > Since it's "wild theory day" too late again. Because > Mario is the soul that is bound to Pathfinder. > > Warlord > From warlord at dragon.com Mon Jun 23 14:46:23 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:46:23 -0400 Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: <001501c339ce$7a408200$d916fea9@ananda> Message-ID: Perhaps I should have put "WILD THEORY DAY" a bit more visible ? (it's still a good guess though) Warlord Torg: You know what the problem is with nude beaches ? Riff: What ? Torg: No quality control. Riff: Point. > -----Original Message----- > From: Timothy Nelson [mailto:TimN at rcn.com] > Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 5:29 PM > To: Dragaera Mailing List > Subject: Re: How does someone get a link to the Orb > > > Eh? What did I miss? Is this canon? > - T > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > Since it's "wild theory day" too late again. Because > > Mario is the soul that is bound to Pathfinder. > > > > Warlord > > > > > > From ehahn at isochronism.com Mon Jun 23 16:48:12 2003 From: ehahn at isochronism.com (Edward Hahn) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 19:48:12 -0400 Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: <200306231838.h5NIcvI25015@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <2657E3CA-A5D5-11D7-88C2-000393962F9C@isochronism.com> On Monday, Jun 23, 2003, at 14:39 US/Eastern, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: >> It is difficult for me to see how off-handedly referring to the >> outcome >> of the 2000 election as a 'coup' can result in anything other than a >> long >> and tedious flamewar, accompanied by an inevitable and simultaneous >> coarsening and lowering of the standards of discourse hereabouts, and >> must >> therefore ask you nicely to refrain. > > But refering to Dallas in '63 wouldn't create the same > outcome? Dallas?!?? Don't you mean the '63 LA Dodgers? ed -- Ed Hahn / ehahn at isochronism.com "It don't mean a thing if it ain't got an even swing!" From mtiller at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 23 16:51:59 2003 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 00:51:59 +0100 Subject: Flame War! (was How does someone get a link to the Orb) Message-ID: <000601c339e2$72a53e50$0101a8c0@markspc> -----Original Message----- From: Gomi no Sensei [mailto:gomi at speakeasy.net] Sent: 23 June 2003 18:24 To: Philip Hart Cc: Dragaera Mailing List Subject: Re: How does someone get a link to the Orb > > It is difficult for me to see how off-handedly referring to the > > outcome of the 2000 election as a 'coup' can result in anything > > other than a long and tedious flamewar, accompanied by an inevitable > > and simultaneous coarsening and lowering of the standards of > > discourse hereabouts, and must therefore ask you nicely to refrain. >...... It seems to me that it would ill-serve the list's stated >purpose, however. Gomi, Agreed......Unless everybody who flames writes in Paarfi/Dumas style. Not of course that one seeks to suggest, although one could understand if this was understood by the comment, that Paarfi has copied the style of Dumas. Let the flame wars begin :-) Mark From Gaertk at aol.com Mon Jun 23 18:10:35 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 21:10:35 -0400 Subject: Brust's weblog Message-ID: <14CC4545.700F5982.00048EA6@aol.com> Steven Brust writes: > At 08:04 PM 6/22/2003 -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >> Today I was thinking of asking Brust if he could give us >> any more info about the mystery he mentioned in his weblog >> on Oct. 10. ?And then I checked there for updates and saw >> that he did! >> >> So here's a couple more questions for him: >> >> Don who? > > Don Hill. ?He's the guy who taught me to play Hold 'em. Has he published anything previously? Bookfinder attaches that name to some motivational books and some histories of Dedham, Massachusettes. >> Will it also be SF? > > Nope. Do you have a publisher yet? --KG From pulmon at comcast.net Mon Jun 23 19:46:37 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 22:46:37 -0400 Subject: Half-breed citizenship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1351D7A6-A5EE-11D7-B7A9-0003938F1608@comcast.net> The Dragon-Jhereg half-breed is atypical since there is no genetic "Jhereg". A Jhereg can be a genetic Dragon--how would a Dragon geneticist figure that out? On Friday, June 20, 2003, at 09:57 AM, Casey Rousseau wrote: > Jag wrote: > [snip] >> be, or maybe the social structure was to new and delicate then to try >> to >> figure out where to fit in such people. Either way, I'm sure that the > [snip] > > Consider for a moment a Dragon-Jhereg half-breed during a Phoenix > Reign. Should s/he be accorded the social standing of a Dragon (High) > or a Jhereg (Low). What about if it was during a Vallista reign? > > I wonder how much the "unacceptance of half-breeds" that we see in the > books is a product of where we are in the Cycle (Phoenix reign > throughout). Since the only truly "open" Houses are Jhereg, which is > at the bottom of the wheel, and Teckla, which is descending and has a > _long_ time to wait for their next reign, it may be that half-breeds > are simply being assigned the social status of members of these two > houses. > > Casey > From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Jun 24 07:42:12 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 07:42:12 -0700 Subject: Jhereg reign In-Reply-To: References: <003101c339b9$cae2cca0$d916fea9@ananda> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030624074106.03bea0a0@localhost> At 12:13 PM 6/23/2003 -0700, Genji wrote: >I was just pondering something... When the emperor is a Jhereg, what is law >enforcement like? New York City, 1948-1977. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Jun 24 07:54:03 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 07:54:03 -0700 Subject: Brust's weblog In-Reply-To: <14CC4545.700F5982.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030624075303.02e7f810@localhost> At 09:10 PM 6/23/2003 -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > > > > Don Hill. He's the guy who taught me to play Hold 'em. > >Has he published anything previously? Nope. He's written a brilliant book on poker, but it needs another pass of revisions and to find a publisher. >Do you have a publisher yet? No. From TimN at rcn.com Tue Jun 24 15:16:50 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 18:16:50 -0400 Subject: Teckla Reign References: <003101c339b9$cae2cca0$d916fea9@ananda> <5.1.0.14.0.20030624074106.03bea0a0@localhost> Message-ID: <001701c33a9e$4fdc7e80$d916fea9@ananda> Something I've wondered that Genji made me think about again. What sort of differences pop up in a Teckla reign? I assume that nobody beats their servants, as they do even in a Phoenix reign? Also, how is the Teckla "heir" determined, if there are no noble Teckla? From warlord at dragon.com Tue Jun 24 15:25:39 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 18:25:39 -0400 Subject: Teckla Reign In-Reply-To: <001701c33a9e$4fdc7e80$d916fea9@ananda> Message-ID: > > Something I've wondered that Genji made me think about again. > > What sort of differences pop up in a Teckla reign? I assume that nobody > beats their servants, as they do even in a Phoenix reign? > > Also, how is the Teckla "heir" determined, if there are no noble Teckla? This one is easy. Look at the heir line. No noble point, no heir. Thank you, thank you ..... I'll be here all week....... Warlord From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Jun 24 15:34:40 2003 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 18:34:40 -0400 Subject: Teckla Reign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0AFAA1C0-A694-11D7-845F-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> On Tuesday, June 24, 2003, at 06:25 PM, Warlord wrote: > >> >> Something I've wondered that Genji made me think about again. >> >> What sort of differences pop up in a Teckla reign? I assume that >> nobody >> beats their servants, as they do even in a Phoenix reign? >> >> Also, how is the Teckla "heir" determined, if there are no noble >> Teckla? > > This one is easy. Look at the heir line. > > No noble point, no heir. > > Thank you, thank you ..... I'll be here all week....... > > Warlord I think its mentioned somewhere (in Teckla, I believe) that when its the Teckla's turn the Empire becomes a Republic. I would go further assume its a Roman style republic, with a head of state and Senate or other kind of legislative body. The Senate would hold most of the power. --- "If they've already seen your best they can do without the rest, don't ya know."---James McMutry From warlord at dragon.com Tue Jun 24 16:09:13 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 19:09:13 -0400 Subject: Teckla Reign In-Reply-To: <0AFAA1C0-A694-11D7-845F-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> Message-ID: > On Tuesday, June 24, 2003, at 06:25 PM, Warlord wrote: > > > > >> > >> Something I've wondered that Genji made me think about again. > >> > >> What sort of differences pop up in a Teckla reign? I assume that > >> nobody > >> beats their servants, as they do even in a Phoenix reign? > >> > >> Also, how is the Teckla "heir" determined, if there are no noble > >> Teckla? > > > > This one is easy. Look at the heir line. > > > > No noble point, no heir. > > > > Thank you, thank you ..... I'll be here all week....... > > > > Warlord > > I think its mentioned somewhere (in Teckla, I believe) that when its > the Teckla's turn the Empire becomes a Republic. I would go further > assume its a Roman style republic, with a head of state and Senate or > other kind of legislative body. The Senate would hold most of the power. > --- > "If they've already seen your best they can do without the rest, don't > ya know."---James McMutry > ...This one sort of blew by you at warp factor four, didn't it.... Warlord No more Sluggy Freelance marathons.... From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Tue Jun 24 19:31:30 2003 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 19:31:30 -0700 Subject: [OT] RE: Teckla Reign Message-ID: <200306241931.AA398196826@amish2000.com> >Warlord > >No more Sluggy Freelance marathons.... What? But Riff is almost as glompable as Daymar! ... I said ALMOST. ? MJ From frank at exit.com Tue Jun 24 16:35:42 2003 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 16:35:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Teckla Reign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200306242335.h5ONZg7V005553@realtime.exit.com> Warlord punned: > > > No noble point, no heir. > ...This one sort of blew by you at warp factor four, didn't it.... Unfortunately, some of us were just trying to ignore it. Now that you've brought it up again, though, I have an editorial comment: Wait for it... \ / \ | | / \ / \ @#####@ ______ !!! __ __ (### ###)-. BBBBB LL AA MM MM !!! .(### ###) \ --- BB BB LL AAAA MMMM MMMM !!! / / (### ###) )_____ BBBBB LL AA AA MM MMM MM !!! / (=- .@#####@|_--" BB BB LL AAAAAAAA MM M MM _ / /\ \_|l|_/ (\ BBBBB LLLLL AAA AA MM MM (!) / (=-\ |l| / \ / \ \.___|l|___/ \ /\ |_| / (=-\._________/\ \ / \._________/ # ---- # # __ # \########/ -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From TimN at rcn.com Tue Jun 24 16:42:51 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 19:42:51 -0400 Subject: Teckla Reign References: <0AFAA1C0-A694-11D7-845F-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <001901c33aaa$545c6ae0$d916fea9@ananda> _Teckla_ does indeed mention a Teckla Republic. I was mostly wondering what people thought about the conditions at the time, and whether the "Emperor" would be elected. (After all, no matter how much political power the senate would have, the orb has to sit on somebody.) From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Jun 24 16:41:25 2003 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 19:41:25 -0400 Subject: Teckla Reign In-Reply-To: <001901c33aaa$545c6ae0$d916fea9@ananda> Message-ID: <5E513026-A69D-11D7-9E2F-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> On Tuesday, June 24, 2003, at 07:42 PM, Timothy Nelson wrote: > _Teckla_ does indeed mention a Teckla Republic. I was mostly wondering > what > people thought about the conditions at the time, and whether the > "Emperor" > would be elected. (After all, no matter how much political power the > senate > would have, the orb has to sit on somebody.) > > Before Julius Caesar, the Roman Senate elected a consul as head of state, usually two, to rule for a year. I imagine the Teckla have something similliar. --- "If they've already seen your best they can do without the rest, don't ya know."---James McMutry From warlord at dragon.com Tue Jun 24 16:44:28 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 19:44:28 -0400 Subject: Teckla Reign In-Reply-To: <200306242335.h5ONZg7V005553@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Frank Mayhar [mailto:frank at exit.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 7:36 PM > To: Warlord > Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Teckla Reign > > > Warlord punned: > > > > No noble point, no heir. > > ...This one sort of blew by you at warp factor four, didn't it.... > > Unfortunately, some of us were just trying to ignore it. Now that you've > brought it up again, though, I have an editorial comment: Defense: I just discovered Sluggy, and have spent the last 3 days of spare time chuckling a lot as I read it from the beginning. I am up to December 2000. Bun-bun is my new hero. Also, I really like.... Oooh! Shiny caplock! Warlord From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Tue Jun 24 20:03:36 2003 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 20:03:36 -0700 Subject: Teckla Reign Message-ID: <200306242003.AA414843330@amish2000.com> From: Chris Turkel Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 19:41:25 -0400 >On Tuesday, June 24, 2003, at 07:42 PM, Timothy Nelson wrote: > >> _Teckla_ does indeed mention a Teckla Republic. I was mostly wondering >> what >> people thought about the conditions at the time, and whether the >> "Emperor" >> would be elected. (After all, no matter how much political power the >> senate >> would have, the orb has to sit on somebody.) >> > >Before Julius Caesar, the Roman Senate elected a consul as head of >state, usually two, to rule for a year. I imagine the Teckla have >something similliar. Er. _Always_ two consuls, except for Pompey the Great's year as the consul without a colleague, which was mostly to annoy the Boni. Julius Caesar himself was a consul twice, and Augustus was, technically, elected a consul, although no one would've been caught dead running _against_ him. ? MJ, who likes Romans. From zizban at adelphia.net Tue Jun 24 17:09:21 2003 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 20:09:21 -0400 Subject: Teckla Reign In-Reply-To: <200306242003.AA414843330@amish2000.com> Message-ID: <45963B72-A6A1-11D7-9E2F-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> On Tuesday, June 24, 2003, at 11:03 PM, M J wrote: > > > From: Chris Turkel > Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 19:41:25 -0400 > >> On Tuesday, June 24, 2003, at 07:42 PM, Timothy Nelson wrote: >> >>> _Teckla_ does indeed mention a Teckla Republic. I was mostly > wondering >>> what >>> people thought about the conditions at the time, and whether the >>> "Emperor" >>> would be elected. (After all, no matter how much political power > the >>> senate >>> would have, the orb has to sit on somebody.) >>> >> >> Before Julius Caesar, the Roman Senate elected a consul as head of >> state, usually two, to rule for a year. I imagine the Teckla have >> something similliar. > > Er. > > _Always_ two consuls, except for Pompey the Great's year as the > consul without a colleague, which was mostly to annoy the Boni. > Julius Caesar himself was a consul twice, and Augustus was, > technically, elected a consul, although no one would've been caught > dead running _against_ him. Oh thats right! I didn't pay attention to History in college. I thought after Caesar Augustus they did away with the consuls. --- "Everybody generalizes from one example. At least, I do."--Steven Brust From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Tue Jun 24 18:00:52 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 21:00:52 -0400 Subject: Teckla Reign In-Reply-To: <45963B72-A6A1-11D7-9E2F-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> References: <200306242003.AA414843330@amish2000.com> <45963B72-A6A1-11D7-9E2F-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <20030625010052.GA64316@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Tue, Jun 24, 2003 at 08:09:21PM -0400, Chris Turkel wrote: > On Tuesday, June 24, 2003, at 11:03 PM, M J wrote: > > >_Always_ two consuls, except for Pompey the Great's year as the > >consul without a colleague, which was mostly to annoy the Boni. > >Julius Caesar himself was a consul twice, and Augustus was, > >technically, elected a consul, although no one would've been caught > >dead running _against_ him. > > Oh thats right! I didn't pay attention to History in college. I thought > after Caesar Augustus they did away with the consuls. Yes, but that was the end of the Republic (well, in *my* book, anyway (not that I've written any books)). During the Republic, there were always supposed to be two consuls. Sometimes one died and for various reasons was not replaced. Pompey was a special case; I don't recall how he pulled it off. From genji_77 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 24 18:31:15 2003 From: genji_77 at hotmail.com (Genji) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 18:31:15 -0700 Subject: Teckla Reign Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Timothy Nelson" To: "Dragaera Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 3:16 PM Subject: Teckla Reign Something I've wondered that Genji made me think about again. What sort of differences pop up in a Teckla reign? I assume that nobody beats their servants, as they do even in a Phoenix reign? Also, how is the Teckla "heir" determined, if there are no noble Teckla? ---------------------------- Judging by what we know about the "fortitude" of Teckla, my guess would be that the emperor would roll-over on his own house and let business continue as usual to appease the other houses. As far as determining the heir, that is a confusing one. Maybe the Dragons pick Teckla based on who would make them Warlord and negotiate them into power. hehehe From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Jun 24 18:31:26 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 21:31:26 -0400 Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb Message-ID: <6D85A259.77957FCF.00048EA6@aol.com> Philip Hart writes: > On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > >> Philip Hart writes: >> >>> You've snipped the gist of my argument, which is that >>> you've conflated "being chosen by the Orb" and "being >>> Emperor". ?You were arguing about the former and here >>> argue about the latter. >> >> Sorry, I didn't read that part very closely. >> >> However, I think you're misinterpretting that scene. >>?Aerich and Adron are talking about how to tell if the >> Cycle has turned (since they can't see the big wheel >> themselves) and the only way they come up with for testing >> this is to try to kill the Emperor. > > You've got the wrong scene - I was referring to the end of > Chapter 34, where (as I quoted earlier) Adron says that his > anti-Emperor pro-Adron spell is fighting itself, leading to > a core dump of power. All this is based on the words of someone Paarfi couldn't interview, who didn't have the means or time to analyse the situation, and who already convinced himself the Cycle had turned (which Paarfi himself doesn't agree with). >?A bit earlier, we see the Orb turn grey in mourning for > Tortaalik while "it interrogated the Cycle and searched, in > its own way, for the new Emperor." The first part of that quote sounds like evidence against your "local choice" theory. Or do you think the Orb, with the memories of all the Emperors, needs to ask someone else which House follows Phoenix? >?We then see it turn white. ?Sethra immediately realizes > Adron is about to go boom - "she had but seconds to act". >?So we have the Orb ask its boss what comes after Phoenix, > we see it find Adron, then we see it run into a null > pointer - or anyway this is the simplest way to read the > evidence. Isn't it simpler to say that Adron's spell got out of control due to key wizards having been assassinated earlier (see Aliera's explanation in _Jhereg_), and possibly complicated by a sudden lack of resistence from the Emperor? [Orb vs Wheel - who's in charge?] > In _Taltos_ Vlad reports in Chapter 16 that "Everyone I've > asked insists that this thing _is_ the Cycle in every > meaningful way, not merely its physical representation." This is right after he first meets M, A, and S and before he's comfortable asking them questions. He doesn't have good sources of info for this sort of thing at this point in time. >?In _TPotD_ there is no sense at the grand conclave that the > supposed destruction of the Orb has anything to do with > the Cycle. Was that the first or second time we see the gods in that book? >?The Orb, an artifact built by human hands, is to my mind > obviously not capable of performing the God-like function > of the Cycle, arranging for the myriad coincidences needed > to force a complex society through its odd dance over and > over. ?Nobody fantasizes about twisting the Orb around to > point to the next House; nobody studies Cycle construction. So a great big wheel, sitting in a place even the gods don't really understand the nature of, is more knowledgeable about the state of the Empire than the artifact constantly floating around the head of state, which also controls all sorcery (and is somewhat involved in psychic communication), and has the memories of all the previous rulers? It is clear (see page 362 mmpb) that the Cycle turns *before* the Orb changes hands, it just isn't provable until then. --KG From kisc at insaneninjahero.com Tue Jun 24 19:18:31 2003 From: kisc at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 20:18:31 -0600 Subject: Teckla Reign In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Genji [mailto:genji_77 at hotmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 7:31 PM > To: dragaera list > Subject: Re: Teckla Reign > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Timothy Nelson" > To: "Dragaera Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 3:16 PM > Subject: Teckla Reign > > > Something I've wondered that Genji made me think about again. > > What sort of differences pop up in a Teckla reign? I assume that nobody > beats their servants, as they do even in a Phoenix reign? > > Also, how is the Teckla "heir" determined, if there are no noble Teckla? > > ---------------------------- > > Judging by what we know about the "fortitude" of Teckla, my guess would be > that the emperor would roll-over on his own house and let > business continue > as usual to appease the other houses. > > As far as determining the heir, that is a confusing one. Maybe > the Dragons > pick Teckla based on who would make them Warlord and negotiate them into > power. hehehe > On the other hand, Paresh was also a Teckla. I think that what we know about the "fortitude" of Teckla is what the noble houses want us (and the Teckla themselves, more to the point) to know about the "fortitude" of Teckla. Kisc From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Jun 24 20:50:26 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 20:50:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: <6D85A259.77957FCF.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <6D85A259.77957FCF.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > Philip Hart writes: > > > On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > > >> Philip Hart writes: > >> > >>> You've snipped the gist of my argument, which is that > >>> you've conflated "being chosen by the Orb" and "being > >>> Emperor". ?You were arguing about the former and here > >>> argue about the latter. > >> > >> Sorry, I didn't read that part very closely. > >> > > ... I was referring to the end of > > Chapter 34, where (as I quoted earlier) Adron says that his > > anti-Emperor pro-Adron spell is fighting itself, leading to > > a core dump of power. > > All this is based on the words of someone Paarfi couldn't > interview, who didn't have the means or time to analyse the > situation, and who already convinced himself the Cycle had > turned (which Paarfi himself doesn't agree with). We don't know much about who Paarfi has interviewed, but he claims to have read notes or correspondence from the principals and to have gotten information from Sethra. Tazendra, Pel, Aerich, and Khaavren were present at the decreation, and if you don't trust the former two to quote Adron correctly, surely the latter two are fair witnesses. You have no basis that I can see for sneering at Adron's ability to assess the situation - he was one of the leading sorcerers at the time and considered worthy of fathering a god's child, so I'd tend to cut him some slack - and I don't see him having a big incentive to lie at this point (about to die, possibly about to destroy the world). I don't much care what Paarfi thinks about the state of the Cycle - as far as I know, we don't know that the Cycle didn't have a brief hiccough, move forward, then correct Itself - perhaps there was a brief period when It wasn't pointing at either House. > >?A bit earlier, we see the Orb turn grey in mourning for > > Tortaalik while "it interrogated the Cycle and searched, in > > its own way, for the new Emperor." > > The first part of that quote sounds like evidence against > your "local choice" theory. Or do you think the Orb, with > the memories of all the Emperors, needs to ask someone else > which House follows Phoenix? Perhaps you know more about object oriented programming than I do, but I can imagine that the concept of information hiding might apply here. It is certainly my experience that it's dangerous to have parallel info in multiple places. It might well be considered good programming procedure for the Orb to have to quiz the Cycle to find who's next in line. Maybe there's precedence beyond regime change - the Heirs, like the Lord of the Pepperfields, have special privileges. Maybe this text is evidence that the Cycle had in some sense changed. Maybe the Cycle didn't change but the Orb looked for a new Emperor and chose one though it shouldn't have. Maybe it can happen that the Emperor dies in office but a new Emperor is chosen from his House because the Cycle didn't change - perhaps a new Consul is elected - so the Orb asks the Cycle who's up next not by default but by design. > >?We then see it turn white. ?Sethra immediately realizes > > Adron is about to go boom - "she had but seconds to act". > >?So we have the Orb ask its boss what comes after Phoenix, > > we see it find Adron, then we see it run into a null > > pointer - or anyway this is the simplest way to read the > > evidence. > > Isn't it simpler to say that Adron's spell got out of control > due to key wizards having been assassinated earlier (see > Aliera's explanation in _Jhereg_), and possibly complicated > by a sudden lack of resistence from the Emperor? I think _Jhereg_ is not exactly canon - Vlad says some funny stuff about reviving beheaded people, for example - and Aliera's account seems both muddled and likely to be biased. I think there is evidence that there were powerful Dragon wizards around at the time - Barrit comes to mind, as does Sethra the Younger. I think that Adron was an idiot if his spell wasn't prepared for the Emperor to suddenly give up, and presumably Sethra and Aliera were idiots as well, having inspected the spell. I think it's simplest to take Adron at his (to my mind, plausible) word until we hear otherwise from a higher authority. > [Orb vs Wheel - who's in charge?] > > > In _Taltos_ Vlad reports in Chapter 16 that "Everyone I've > > asked insists that this thing _is_ the Cycle in every > > meaningful way, not merely its physical representation." > > This is right after he first meets M, A, and S and before > he's comfortable asking them questions. He doesn't have > good sources of info for this sort of thing at this point in > time. At the end of _Taltos_ Vlad has seen Morrolan "a couple of times", often enough to say "whenever he asks [about the blood]", so it's likely that "everyone" includes M.. At the end of the novel V., M., and A. have recounted their tale to Sethra - I can well imagine him saying, "Is that just a fancy stone wheel?" at the relevant point. I can also imagine him going to ask the balding librarian in the Lyorn library about this, or his old history tutor, or whatever. I agree that this evidence would be stronger if given later, but I hope Vlad wouldn't report conclusions based on the opinions of some guys in a tavern. Anyway, if you insist, look at Chapter 18 of _TPotD_, where Paarfi has Barlen say, "The Cycle is never broken. Only the Empire is shattered, but the Cycle which was its foundation cannot be broken, for it is part of the fundamental nature of the universe." Ok, Paarfi may be full of crap, and all the stuff in this chapter showing the Cycle as running things while the Orb is a programmable object may be dreamgrass-induced, but again the simplest reading of the available evidence makes the Cycle the boss. > >?In _TPotD_ there is no sense at the grand conclave that the > > supposed destruction of the Orb has anything to do with > > the Cycle. > > Was that the first or second time we see the gods in that book? Sorry, I was referring to the meeting of Houses in Chapter 14 - and I should note that Kana at least doesn't seem to care much for the Cycle. > >?The Orb, an artifact built by human hands, is to my mind > > obviously not capable of performing the God-like function > > of the Cycle, arranging for the myriad coincidences needed > > to force a complex society through its odd dance over and > > over. ?Nobody fantasizes about twisting the Orb around to > > point to the next House; nobody studies Cycle construction. > > So a great big wheel, sitting in a place even the gods don't > really understand the nature of, is more knowledgeable about > the state of the Empire than the artifact constantly floating > around the head of state, which also controls all sorcery > (and is somewhat involved in psychic communication), and has > the memories of all the previous rulers? Yes, that seems to be SKZB's crazy idea - he must have a thing for "great big wheel[s]" despite the obvious superiority of little bitty hunks of stone, or some odd view of the possibility of client/server arrangements. > It is clear (see page 362 mmpb) that the Cycle turns *before* > the Orb changes hands, it just isn't provable until then. Can't locate this in the hardback, but I imagine this is the case for some transitions (which are presumably peaceful, most Emperors presumably being better than Tortaalik), depending on how good the Emperor is at judging it's time to go - but not relevant to the situation in question - actually I'll reserve comment until I know what I'm commenting on. On this question, I refer people who like to be confused to Newcomb's Paradox, which is a little hard to explain in this margin. From charles_sumner at harvard.edu Wed Jun 25 12:53:16 2003 From: charles_sumner at harvard.edu (charles_sumner at harvard.edu) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 15:53:16 -0400 Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: References: <6D85A259.77957FCF.00048EA6@aol.com> <6D85A259.77957FCF.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030625125720.0332cd68@camail2.harvard.edu> At 08:50 PM 6/24/2003 -0700, Philip Hart wrote: >We don't know much about who Paarfi has interviewed, but he claims to have >read notes or correspondence from the principals and to have gotten >information from Sethra. Tazendra, Pel, Aerich, and Khaavren were present >at the decreation, and if you don't trust the former two to quote Adron >correctly, surely the latter two are fair witnesses. Paarfi is not writing an historical account of the disaster, he's writing a romantic novel about it that features people who were present during key events. We have no assurance that he has related whatever quotes he may have gotten from Aerich or Khaavren (or found in their letters) verbatim, and every reason to believe that he has not. IIRC, the introduction to TPG explains how Paarfi's adjusted the style of language to give it more of an old-fashioned feel as was used in the plays of the period. Whatever real facts Paarfi has collected about the disaster would appear in his great unfinished work "Toward Beginning a Survey of Some Events Contributing to the Fall of the Empire" and it'll probably be a while until we see that in print. For his historical romances, he may have tweaked the facts to make Adron seem more noble than he actually was (it helps them sell better after all). >I think _Jhereg_ is not exactly canon - Vlad says some funny stuff about >reviving beheaded people, for example - and Aliera's account seems both >muddled and likely to be biased. If Paarfi did "read notes or correspondence from the principals," that would have to include Aleria and _Jhereg_ (as well as _Issola_). Yes, her account is biased, but if she consented to talk to Paarfi about the details, you can bet that she'd have happily spun her account of the events to shed a more positive light on her father and perhaps Paarfi bought into it. Also, if Paarfi had written that Adron was an idiot, he might not have survived to write the later books. I think that FHYA is an excellent primer about the events surrounding the disaster, but just as everything in the Taltos books is colored by Vlad's point of view, the "historicals" are colored by Paarfi's (and the information that the players were willing to write down or otherwise give to Paarfi) so you have to be careful before accepting them as canon. All of the Dragerea books have a bit of Rashomon to them in that the accounts are colored by the person telling the story. The fact that the Paarfi books are told from a third-person perspective doesn't make them any more truthful than the Vlad books since they are very much told from Paarfi's point of view (and SKZB is happy to remind us of this throughout the books by drawing attention to Paarfi's style). Charley Sumner charles_sumner at harvard.edu "That's brilliant! They've hid the information in plain sight by disguising it as a web page." From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Jun 25 14:34:52 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 14:34:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030625125720.0332cd68@camail2.harvard.edu> References: <6D85A259.77957FCF.00048EA6@aol.com> <6D85A259.77957FCF.00048EA6@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030625125720.0332cd68@camail2.harvard.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 charles_sumner at harvard.edu wrote: > At 08:50 PM 6/24/2003 -0700, Philip Hart wrote: > >We don't know much about who Paarfi has interviewed, but he claims to have > >read notes or correspondence from the principals and to have gotten > >information from Sethra. Tazendra, Pel, Aerich, and Khaavren were present > >at the decreation, and if you don't trust the former two to quote Adron > >correctly, surely the latter two are fair witnesses. > > Paarfi is not writing an historical account of the disaster, he's writing a > romantic novel about it that features people who were present during key > events. We have no assurance that he has related whatever quotes he may > have gotten from Aerich or Khaavren (or found in their letters) verbatim, > and every reason to believe that he has not. IIRC, the introduction to TPG > explains how Paarfi's adjusted the style of language to give it more of an > old-fashioned feel as was used in the plays of the period. I don't know whether Paarfi's account is historical, a novel, or both. I don't much care about the style of language Paarfi uses (inconsistently) - but it is inarguable that he is (at least occasionally) very careful in his choice of words - see my discussion of the ambiguity of address in the last pages of Chapter 33 of _FHYA_ or the great two letters in _TPotD_. I think we have some sort of evidence that Paarfi isn't making things up >from whole cloth in the non-fatal reception of the novel. And I think Sethra's agreeing to correspond with him represents evidence that he has some chops worth respecting. > Whatever real facts Paarfi has collected about the disaster would appear in > his great unfinished work "Toward Beginning a Survey of Some Events > Contributing to the Fall of the Empire" and it'll probably be a while until > we see that in print. For his historical romances, he may have tweaked the > facts to make Adron seem more noble than he actually was (it helps them > sell better after all). Adron does not receive a fawning portrayal in _FHYA_, unless he was actually an utter villain. In my view his conversations with Aerich show him to be a Shakespearean character - ok, not Othello or Macbeth - anyway he's aware he may be doing something awful but he's noble enough to earn Sethra's and Aerich's respect - and Khaavren's friendship - and I think it would be hard to construe the unmistakeable fact of the latter two's survival of the Disaster otherwise. I'll throw in Morrolan's good opinion (aka worship) of Adron, and Verra's choosing to sleep or something with him. And I'll cite his dying words, which are either a tribute to his character or an odd choice for a fawning hack romancier (and note the simple language) - "Don't tell them that I meant well." > >I think _Jhereg_ is not exactly canon - Vlad says some funny stuff about > >reviving beheaded people, for example - and Aliera's account seems both > >muddled and likely to be biased. > > If Paarfi did "read notes or correspondence from the principals," that > would have to include Aleria and _Jhereg_ (as well as _Issola_). You are quite likely wrong re _J_ and _I_ - Vlad says he was assured his accounts would never see the light (or shade, I guess) of Dragaeran day. I find it somewhat unlikely that Aliera would consent to be interviewed. > Yes, her account is biased, but if she consented to talk to Paarfi about > the details, you can bet that she'd have happily spun her account of the > events to shed a more positive light on her father and perhaps Paarfi > bought into it. Also, if Paarfi had written that Adron was an idiot, he > might not have survived to write the later books. On the other hand, Paarfi asserts (preface to _TPotD_) that Adron was widely reviled at the time (see Vlad's participation in this in the course of _Issola_) - his survival might as easily be endangered by offering a moderate view (consider writing a novel today representing the 9-11 terrorists as noble) - and as discussed in this list there are a variety of people who might well want to challenge him to a duel on the basis of what he has published. > I think that FHYA is an excellent primer about the events surrounding the > disaster, but just as everything in the Taltos books is colored by Vlad's > point of view, the "historicals" are colored by Paarfi's (and the > information that the players were willing to write down or otherwise give > to Paarfi) so you have to be careful before accepting them as canon. I don't believe I have accepted them as canon - I've asserted that Paarfi's story hangs together, has some likelihood of being based on eye-witness accounts, hasn't resulted in his death by duel, and is all we have to go on, so deserves to be considered the default description of what happened until we have more obviously reliable information (and what would that be? Perhaps Sethra or Verra [no, she could be accused of bias too] speaking in a Vlad novel?) > All of the Dragerea books have a bit of Rashomon to them in that the > accounts are colored by the person telling the story. The fact that the > Paarfi books are told from a third-person perspective doesn't make them any > more truthful than the Vlad books since they are very much told from > Paarfi's point of view (and SKZB is happy to remind us of this throughout > the books by drawing attention to Paarfi's style). The fact is that Paarfi is our best (well, almost only) source of info on these matters and one has to either accept it as an internally-consistent and plausible description of events or choose ignorance of this interesting period of history. From WyrmOuroboros at comcast.net Wed Jun 25 23:59:06 2003 From: WyrmOuroboros at comcast.net (Thomas FURNITURE ARTIST) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 02:59:06 -0400 Subject: Cycle Turns (Was: Link to the Orb) Message-ID: <7967f0798591.7985917967f0@icomcast.net> From: Philip Hart > The fact is that Paarfi is our best (well, almost only) source of > info on these matters and one has to either accept it as an > internally-consistent and plausible description of events or choose > ignorance of this interesting period of history. But it is neither internally consistent nor plausible. Though I don't have my books with me, the only thing we 'know' about when the Orb turns white is that Sethra Lavode knows she only has moments in which to act. Not that she knows Adron's spell is going awry. Not that she knows Adron's the Emperor. Only that she knows she has only moments in which to act. Please note that Paarfi does a damn good job of buttering up Sethra in the paragraphs that follow this declaration. Consider the FACTS WE KNOW. 1) Tortaalik, a Decaying Phoenix, was Emperor. 2) Mario Greymist, despite the Orb's protection, killed the reigning Emperor. 3) Adron, the Dragon Heir, was engaged in Pre-Empire Sorcery -- supposedly to wrest control of the orb from the Emperor. 4) It was the End of the 17th Cycle. 5) Zerika, a Reborn Phoenix (or whatever the proper term is -- non- Decaying?) who was not born before Tortaalik's death, is the FIRST EMPEROR AFTER TORTAALIK. 6) It is now the START of the 18th Cycle, the first Cycle of the Second Great Cycle. These facts are indisputable. So what happened? Or, more exactly, what MUST HAVE HAPPENED in order to bring these specific facts into existence? 1) The Cycle -could-not-have-turned-. It was the Reign of the Phoenix, it IS the Reign of the Phoenix, thus the Cycle Did Not Turn. 2) The Orb, interrogating the Cycle -- the Orb, after all, interrogates the Cycle to see of which House the next Emperor is a member -- begins looking for the Phoenix Heir. 3) Zerika, most likely due to House rules and despite not yet born, was the Phoenix Heir. Why? Clearly because she was the next Phoenix to rule, although an argument can be made that she rules because she is the only Phoenix left, hence MUST CURRENTLY be the Phoenix Heir. Why she was Phoenix Heir at that time is open for speculation, but she may have been, due to House rules on the matter. Presuming she WAS Heir: 4) The Orb, finding the 'next Emperor' in utero, found itself in what can only be described as a quandry; how do you 'crown' a person who doesn't entirely exist yet? 5) Logically, the Orb must enter into a shutdown/standby mode. Consider one of the first things Aliera says when waking up in the Paths of the Dead; "I told him the Cycle hadn't changed." (Not an exact quote, of course.) Adron believed that it was time for the Cycle to change, and what he was attempting was NOT to 'wrest the Orb from the Emperor', but instead 'effect the Change of the Cycle in the Empire'. When the Cycle changes, the big wheel turns; when the big wheel turns, the Cycle changes. The only EXTERIOR way of making the Cycle change is -turning-the-wheel-of-the-Cycle-. Adron, therefore, was trying to throw a pre-Empire sorcery spell against the 100,000-year weight of the Cycle. So, we have the Orb, presumably in 'standby' mode, presumably waiting for Zerika. Adron's spell is channelling energy into/at/through him, directed at the Orb which, it should be noted, has a MUCH superior access to the Very Same Energy which Adron is trying to channel, and in fact is built to a) channel it, b) protect the source, and c) be protected by it. Ergo: Adron directly manipulates amorphia from the Great Sea of Chaos and attempts to use it to grab the Orb. The Orb 'detects' two things: first, that it is being assaulted by amorphic energy (i.e. Pre-Empire sorcery), and second, that the Great Sea of Chaos is being tapped. The sequence that follows is disturbingly simple; the Orb must protect the Great Sea of Chaos, but the Great Sea of Chaos must protect the Orb; the Orb cannot protect the Sea if it is destroyed, therefore the Orb must first be defended. Adron is, unfortunately and unwittingly, given open and continuous power to the Great Sea to channel into his spell against the Orb which, of course, gains more and protection from the Great Sea against the mystic assault; the Orb channels amorphia better, so its defenses keep ramping upwards against the increasing pressure that Adron is bringing to bear. All the Orb has to do is defend itself until the Emperor comes of age, takes possession, and destroys the individual assaulting it, right? It can do that; all it has to do is wait and let the Great Sea of Chaos defend it for however long it needs to -- it's functionally immortal. But Adron is only mortal, and like Vlad found out, drawing all this energy and having nowhere to put it, well, you feel like you're going to explode. Adron, of course, did -- into the energy he was tapping, amorphia. Being who he was, however, he managed to keep some sense of 'himself', even as the Gods were stopping him from spreading too far; he's now 'only' a Lesser Sea of Chaos. So what does it mean when the Orb goes white? Sethra knows; I posit that it means that the Orb is defending itself against a Pre-Empire sorcerous attack, an assault by the Jenoine, or something equally earth- shattering. She -knows- she has only moments, so essentially she gets the f*ck out of dodge, dumping the Orb into the Paths and dropping Aliera's soul, errr, into a field. ... ?? Okay, we still haven't figured out that one detail yet. However, remember/realize that Paarfi does not state what the Orb going white -means-. There; internally consistent (with what Vlad/Sethra/etc. knows, too!!) and plausible. Even computer-plausible. From davids at kithrup.com Thu Jun 26 00:52:30 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 00:52:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cycle Turns (Was: Link to the Orb) In-Reply-To: <7967f0798591.7985917967f0@icomcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, Thomas FURNITURE ARTIST wrote: >2) The Orb, interrogating the Cycle -- the Orb, after all, interrogates >the Cycle to see of which House the next Emperor is a member -- begins >looking for the Phoenix Heir. >3) Zerika, most likely due to House rules and despite not yet born, was >the Phoenix Heir. Why? Clearly because she was the next Phoenix to >rule, although an argument can be made that she rules because she is >the only Phoenix left, hence MUST CURRENTLY be the Phoenix Heir. Why >she was Phoenix Heir at that time is open for speculation, but she may >have been, due to House rules on the matter. Presuming she WAS Heir: >4) The Orb, finding the 'next Emperor' in utero, found itself in what >can only be described as a quandry; how do you 'crown' a person who >doesn't entirely exist yet? I have my own thoughts on the matter of the Orb, but I'd just like to point out that I think you may have misunderstood how the matter of the Heir stood. The Phoenix Heir was Princess Loudin. Assuming things had Worked Properly, she would have become Empress. Of course, things *not* working properly may have contributed to her death. At any rate, this is what then lead to Zerika, her daughter, becoming the Phoenix Heir. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Jun 26 01:12:15 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 01:12:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cycle Turns (Was: Link to the Orb) In-Reply-To: <7967f0798591.7985917967f0@icomcast.net> References: <7967f0798591.7985917967f0@icomcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, Thomas FURNITURE ARTIST wrote: > From: Philip Hart > > The fact is that Paarfi is our best (well, almost only) source of > > info on these matters and one has to either accept it as an > > internally-consistent and plausible description of events or choose > > ignorance of this interesting period of history. > > But it is neither internally consistent nor plausible. Though I don't > have my books with me, the only thing we 'know' about when the Orb turns > white is that Sethra Lavode knows she only has moments in which to act. I think you have no reason to make the above assertions, especially given the drift of your argument below. Incidentally, I think it is is best to have the Texts at hand in such discussions. > Not that she knows Adron's spell is going awry. ITYHNRTMTAA - she tells Aliera her father's about to explode, according to Paarfi - and why wouldn't she know? She is likely able to sample the rising currents of Elder sorcery, she is (according to Paarfi) acquainted with Adron's spell, and she's aware that Tortaalik is dead. She also knows (in all likelihood) more about the Orb than anyone alive or undead at the time or probably ever. > Not that she knows Adron's the Emperor. (I'm going to omit a whole series of ITYHetcs following more or less every sentence of yours below.) Paarfi says she thought the Dragon Heir (if any survived) would take the Orb. Score one for Sethra being wrong. But the question at hand is not, Who's the Emperor? but Who's the Orb-Emperor? - see my last five posts for a tedious reiteration of this point. > Only that she knows she has only moments in which to act. Says who? Oh, Paarfi. > Please note that Paarfi does a damn good job of buttering up Sethra in > the paragraphs that follow this declaration. Does he say anything not entirely consistent with the Sethra from the Vlad novels? I think not. > Consider the FACTS WE KNOW. > > 1) Tortaalik, a Decaying Phoenix, was Emperor. Says who? Vlad and Paarfi. For all Vlad knows, the Empire was founded a few hundred years ago. And clearly Paarfi is biased past trusting. > 2) Mario Greymist, despite the Orb's protection, killed the reigning Emperor. Or this is the result of a great ad campaign. The only witnesses who (we know) survived the event were Aliera and Sethra. Perhaps Sethra decided that Tortaalik was dangerously stupid to be Emperor and offed him with Aliera's help, then made up Mario after the whole thing blew up in their faces. This is a fairly plausible and self-consistent theory, but since I just made it up I'll favor Paarfi until we meet Mario. > 5) Zerika, a Reborn Phoenix (or whatever the proper term is -- non- > Decaying?) who was not born before Tortaalik's death, is the FIRST > EMPEROR AFTER TORTAALIK. Perhaps there was a whole series of Phoenix emperors ONE AFTER ANOTHER AS each DIED of Plague and the Cycle said, oops, he's emperor, no, she's emperor - perhaps Zerika in the womb was Emperor. > These facts are indisputable. Facts are tricky things (misquoting somebody). > So what happened? Or, more exactly, what MUST HAVE HAPPENED in order > to bring these specific facts into existence? > > 1) The Cycle -could-not-have-turned-. It was the Reign of the Phoenix, > it IS the Reign of the Phoenix, thus the Cycle Did Not Turn. The Cycle Could Have ratcheted BackWards for All we knOW. The Cycle-could-have-turned-all-the-way-around, gotten dizzy, and ended up anywhere. The Cycle could have a separate neutral gear we don't know about. The Cycle could have turned, realized its mistake, gone poof in a cloud of logic (misquoting Douglas Adams), and been reformed in some odd state by universal fiat. > 2) The Orb, interrogating the Cycle -- the Orb, after all, interrogates > the Cycle to see of which House the next Emperor is a member -- begins > looking for the Phoenix Heir. According to Paarfi, the Orb started looking. You've chosen for whatever reason (not on the basis of any evidence I know of) to insist that the Orb looked for a Phoenix. Ok, I give up, I've written more than my share of recent posts on this list. From charles_sumner at harvard.edu Thu Jun 26 06:46:49 2003 From: charles_sumner at harvard.edu (charles_sumner at harvard.edu) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 09:46:49 -0400 Subject: Cycle Turns (Was: Link to the Orb) In-Reply-To: <7967f0798591.7985917967f0@icomcast.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030626093209.00aaede8@camail2.harvard.edu> At 02:59 AM 6/26/2003 -0400, you wrote: >There; internally consistent (with what Vlad/Sethra/etc. knows, too!!) >and plausible. Even computer-plausible. All this talk about computer analogies reminds me that the disaster wouldn't have happened without Mario's denial of service hacker attack on the Orb, which disabled its systems and allowed him to bypass its defenses and assassinate the Emperor. Charley Sumner charles_sumner at harvard.edu "Let's not jump to any conclusions." "I didn't jump. I took a tiny step, and there conclusions were." Buffy the Vampire Slayer - "Phases" From kisc at insaneninjahero.com Thu Jun 26 16:30:24 2003 From: kisc at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 17:30:24 -0600 Subject: Cycle Turns (Was: Link to the Orb) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030626093209.00aaede8@camail2.harvard.edu> Message-ID: erhm, wouldn't that be "...allowed him to h4xx0rz T3H 3mp3r0r..." ?? Kisc > -----Original Message----- > From: charles_sumner at harvard.edu [mailto:charles_sumner at harvard.edu] > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 7:47 AM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Cycle Turns (Was: Link to the Orb) > > > At 02:59 AM 6/26/2003 -0400, you wrote: > >There; internally consistent (with what Vlad/Sethra/etc. knows, too!!) > >and plausible. Even computer-plausible. > > All this talk about computer analogies reminds me that the disaster > wouldn't have happened without Mario's denial of service hacker attack on > the Orb, which disabled its systems and allowed him to bypass its > defenses > and assassinate the Emperor. > > > > Charley Sumner charles_sumner at harvard.edu > > "Let's not jump to any conclusions." > "I didn't jump. I took a tiny step, and there conclusions were." > Buffy the Vampire Slayer - "Phases" > > From mam at theworld.com Fri Jun 27 10:45:04 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 13:45:04 -0400 Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 2003, Philip Hart wrote: #On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 charles_sumner at harvard.edu wrote: # #> >I think _Jhereg_ is not exactly canon - Vlad says some funny stuff about #> >reviving beheaded people, for example I treated that as a slip by Brust [1], but if you're trying to keep Brust the author [2] out of the picture, saying Vlad made a mistake in Dragaeran history seems a good way to go. [1] http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/deaths.html#Beheading [2] http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/cracks.html#Brusts #> > - and Aliera's account seems both #> >muddled and likely to be biased. #> #> If Paarfi did "read notes or correspondence from the principals," that #> would have to include Aleria and _Jhereg_ (as well as _Issola_). # #You are quite likely wrong re _J_ and _I_ - Vlad says he was assured his #accounts would never see the light (or shade, I guess) of Dragaeran day. Athyra p. 9, maybe also Orca p. 16, mass market paperbacks. http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/cracks.html#Brusts #I don't believe I have accepted them as canon - I've asserted that #Paarfi's story hangs together, has some likelihood of being based on #eye-witness accounts, hasn't resulted in his death by duel, and is all we #have to go on, so deserves to be considered the default description of #what happened until we have more obviously reliable information (and what #would that be? Perhaps Sethra or Verra [no, she could be accused of bias #too] speaking in a Vlad novel?) Default does not imply 100% reliable. #The fact is that Paarfi is our best (well, almost only) source of info #on these matters and one has to either accept it as an #internally-consistent and plausible description of events or choose #ignorance of this interesting period of history. Or internally inconsistent, if one finds internal inconsistencies. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mam at theworld.com Fri Jun 27 11:00:03 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:00:03 -0400 Subject: Cycle Turns (Was: Link to the Orb) In-Reply-To: <7967f0798591.7985917967f0@icomcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, Thomas FURNITURE ARTIST wrote: #Consider the FACTS WE KNOW. [deleted most of very nice analysis] #So what does it mean when the Orb goes white? White is the color of sickness (Issola 71). So the Orb is warning that there's trouble in the system that it's part of? -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website # She -knows- she has only moments, so essentially she gets the f*ck #out of dodge, I think that's "Dodge", capital D, short for "Dodge City" in the Old West. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Jun 27 11:10:36 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 11:10:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dodge City.... Message-ID: <200306271810.h5RIARI27549@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > I think that's "Dodge", capital D, short for "Dodge City" in the Old > West. So, what's so special, or terrible, about Dodge that people always want to get out of there so badly? The cockroaches so large and terrible they ate all the rats? Just curious, Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From mam at theworld.com Fri Jun 27 11:13:21 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:13:21 -0400 Subject: Dodge City.... In-Reply-To: <200306271810.h5RIARI27549@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Jun 2003, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: #> I think that's "Dodge", capital D, short for "Dodge City" in the Old #> West. # #So, what's so special, or terrible, about Dodge that #people always want to get out of there so badly? I think it's Marshal Dillon's telling you to leave. "Gunsmoke", an old, old TV Western. -- Mark M. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Jun 27 11:13:44 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 11:13:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Jun 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Wed, 25 Jun 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > #> >I think _Jhereg_ is not exactly canon - Vlad says some funny stuff about > #> >reviving beheaded people, for example > > I treated that as a slip by Brust [1], but if you're trying to keep > Brust the author [2] out of the picture, saying Vlad made a mistake in > Dragaeran history seems a good way to go. > > > [1] http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/deaths.html#Beheading Note that revivification was (nearly? entirely?) impossible before the Interregnum - one of the various conversations with Verra in _Phoenix_ I think. There are a variety of problems with _Jhereg_ - the opening of Chapter 9 with the four close brushes with death, Aliera's friendship with Kiera, Kiera's liplock with Vlad, ... > #have to go on, so deserves to be considered the default description of > #what happened until we have more obviously reliable information > Default does not imply 100% reliable. A good thing, else the "more obviously reliable" info would be 110%... > #The fact is that Paarfi is our best (well, almost only) source of info > #on these matters and one has to either accept it as an > #internally-consistent and plausible description of events or choose > #ignorance of this interesting period of history. > > Or internally inconsistent, if one finds internal inconsistencies. Has this list been obsessively searching for such inconsistencies for years, and has it found anything worse than the Lytra-wasn't-talking- to-Seodra screwup? And does it have a set of ready-made procedures for blaming the messenger? From carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com Fri Jun 27 14:19:44 2003 From: carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com (Carla Hunt) Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 17:19:44 -0400 Subject: Dodge City.... Message-ID: My first post and it had nothing at all to do with the list subject. Hmmm. Dodge City, KS, was an old west town that grew rapidly because of the railroad and buffalo hunting. For a long time there was no local law enforcement and the military had no jurisdiction over the town. Put buffalo hunters, railroad workers, drifters, soldiers, cowboys and itchy trigger fingers together and you get the gun-slinging capitol of the old west. I think it's the place where they got the phrase "died with his boots on." I don't think the life expectancy was too high then. If you wanted to live a long life, you got the hell out of Dodge. That was until Wyatt Earp et al stepped in straightened things out. Sort of. Mark A Mandel > cc: WyrmOuroboros at comcast.net, 06/27/2003 02:13 Subject: Re: Dodge City.... PM On Fri, 27 Jun 2003, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: #> I think that's "Dodge", capital D, short for "Dodge City" in the Old #> West. # #So, what's so special, or terrible, about Dodge that #people always want to get out of there so badly? I think it's Marshal Dillon's telling you to leave. "Gunsmoke", an old, old TV Western. -- Mark M. From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Sat Jun 28 01:39:22 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 01:39:22 -0700 Subject: question. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 2003 17:33:47 -0400, you wrote: >Old stuff in the mailbox, and I don't remember if this ever got a reply: > >On Tue, 29 Apr 2003, BLACKSTOCK, ROB wrote: > >#In "Yendi," Sethra says that Sethra the Younger was the only apprentice >#she ever had who never tried to kill her. >#Does that mean Tazendra will eventually turn on Sethra? >#I always assumed that Tazendra blew herself up later in the series. >#Could it have been Sethra's work instead? > >In POTD Tazendra is guarding the approach to Dzur Mountain that Piro >arrives by, but that doesn't mean she's SL's apprentice. > I figured she was just an attempt to restart the LaVodes that didn't work for reasons Steve will hopefully cover soon. -- lazarus "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American Public." -- Theodore Roosevelt From don at easterlys.com Sat Jun 28 02:41:48 2003 From: don at easterlys.com (Don Easterly) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 01:41:48 -0800 Subject: question. References: Message-ID: <000601c33d59$7f450800$6501a8c0@don6yy5cf5vr46> Was there no point in FHYA or TPG that Tazendra and Sethra were either on the opposite sides of a battle or duel? Time for me to re-read I guess, because I don't recall..... Don ----- Original Message ----- From: "lazarus" To: "Mark A Mandel" Cc: Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 12:39 AM Subject: Re: question. On Sat, 21 Jun 2003 17:33:47 -0400, you wrote: >Old stuff in the mailbox, and I don't remember if this ever got a reply: > >On Tue, 29 Apr 2003, BLACKSTOCK, ROB wrote: > >#In "Yendi," Sethra says that Sethra the Younger was the only apprentice >#she ever had who never tried to kill her. >#Does that mean Tazendra will eventually turn on Sethra? >#I always assumed that Tazendra blew herself up later in the series. >#Could it have been Sethra's work instead? > >In POTD Tazendra is guarding the approach to Dzur Mountain that Piro >arrives by, but that doesn't mean she's SL's apprentice. > I figured she was just an attempt to restart the LaVodes that didn't work for reasons Steve will hopefully cover soon. -- lazarus "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American Public." -- Theodore Roosevelt From davids at kithrup.com Sat Jun 28 11:16:25 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 11:16:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: question. In-Reply-To: <000601c33d59$7f450800$6501a8c0@don6yy5cf5vr46> Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Jun 2003, Don Easterly wrote: >Was there no point in FHYA or TPG that Tazendra and Sethra were >either on the opposite sides of a battle or duel? Time for me to >re-read I guess, because I don't recall..... > Absolutely not. Sethra did not appear at all in tPG (although some of her history is obliquely referred to, c.f. the Lavode Scandal). In FHYA, Sethra meets Tazendra, but treats her with a great deal of sensitivity, and there's a rather moving scene where the two of them are examining the room of the deceased Gyorg Lavode (who was also a Dzur). There's the suggestion they become friends. You may be thinking of Sethra's interaction with Aliera, whom she baits (in order to provoke challenges to duels), and then distracts (so as to calm her down) (or sometimes they are distracted by external events). This happens several times through the story, and is rather amusing to watch. Sethra's real skill is that she knows how to handle people from each of the 17 Dragaeran Houses. She has a bit of trouble with Easterners, though. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sat Jun 28 11:52:23 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 11:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: question. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Sethra's real skill is that she knows how to handle people from each > of the 17 Dragaeran Houses. Not that I doubt she has mad people skills, given her skills track record, but we haven't seen her interact much with non-Dzurs or Dragons (of which she shares some facial characteristics), have we? In fact, if you believe Paarfi, she does a bad job with Phoenixes - her embassy to Tortaalik is presented in such a manner as to nearly insure he will turn her down. She could have led with "I have a plan under which Adron will resign his Heirship." She might have followed with "Aliera will not be the Heir in his place." Note that this lends some marginal credence to my Sethra- offed-Tortaalik-and-framed-Mario theory (which I should note deals with two points in _FHYA_ which make me a bit queasy - Sethra's being stupid enough to explain, even sotto voce, how to kill the Emperor, and her allowing this info to be published. My less speculative explanations for these points being that as even Homer nods, Sethra screws up; and that she knows this feature of the Orb was fixed in the Paths.) > She has a bit of trouble with Easterners, though. She seems to handle Vlad very well, except I think for the beginning of _Taltos_, where perhaps she was pretending (not in the Paarfian sense) to be ignorant of Eastern mores as part of Kiera's cover strategy. From WyrmOuroboros at comcast.net Sun Jun 29 15:04:34 2003 From: WyrmOuroboros at comcast.net (Thomas FURNITURE ARTIST) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 18:04:34 -0400 Subject: Cycle Turns (Was: Link to the Orb) Message-ID: <1df0a91e44c9.1e44c91df0a9@icomcast.net> From: Mark A Mandel > #Consider the FACTS WE KNOW. > [deleted most of very nice analysis] It's always nice to receive a compliment from someone whom is generally considered one of the experts. Thank you. > #So what does it mean when the Orb goes white? > White is the color of sickness (Issola 71). So the Orb is warning that > there's trouble in the system that it's part of? Hmmm. Hadn't thought of this possibility; forgot my _Issola_. Entirely possible, even probable. Consider a few more facts: Princess Kareen (sorry, misplaced the name, it's been recently mentioned by Mssr. 'I Find It Best to Keep Your Books Handy') is said (by Morrolan and/or Sethra and/or Aliera) to have died during the Disaster, before Zerika IV's birth. It is possible -- not necessarily probable, but again, possible -- that she was mortally injured during the disruptions before Tortaalik was, instead of being killed during the actual 'coming-into-being' of the Lesser Sea. If she was dying and in labor with the infant Zerika, and presuming there was a Phoenix circling overhead, Zerika would have been the Phoenix Heir ... though only if she survived. I think that'd've caused a 'white' reaction from the Orb. Which would also mean that even if Sethra Lavode is telling Paarfi things, she's not telling him -everything-... Thomas Crain aka Felix Eisen aka The Wyrm Ouroboros From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Jun 29 15:44:43 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 15:44:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cycle Turns (Was: Link to the Orb) In-Reply-To: <1df0a91e44c9.1e44c91df0a9@icomcast.net> References: <1df0a91e44c9.1e44c91df0a9@icomcast.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 2003, Thomas FURNITURE ARTIST wrote: > From: Mark A Mandel > > #Consider the FACTS WE KNOW. > > [deleted most of very nice analysis] > > It's always nice to receive a compliment from someone whom is generally > considered one of the experts. Thank you. Even Homer nods... > Princess Kareen (sorry, misplaced the name, it's been recently > mentioned by Mssr. 'I Find It Best to Keep Your Books Handy') is said > (by Morrolan and/or Sethra and/or Aliera) to have died during the > Disaster, before Zerika IV's birth. Do you mean "Careen", as in "lurch or twist"? It's a nice word, and "loudin" probably isn't a mistranscription of "louden". Is "Mssr." meant to stand for "Monsignor", as I like to style myself? For the record, it is asserted by Sethra's envoy (_TPotD_, pg 113) that "the Princess herself scarely survived the birth of her child by a year, falling to the first wave of Plagues..." > It is possible -- not necessarily > probable, but again, possible -- that she was mortally injured during > the disruptions before Tortaalik was, instead of being killed during > the actual 'coming-into-being' of the Lesser Sea. If she was dying and > in labor with the infant Zerika, and presuming there was a Phoenix > circling overhead, Zerika would have been the Phoenix Heir ... though > only if she survived. From mam at theworld.com Sun Jun 29 16:14:00 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 19:14:00 -0400 Subject: Half-breed citizenship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Philip Hart wrote: #On the one hand, I like your theory - on the other, I like three competing #ones: (1) a simple spell is available to prevent conception, so being a #half-breed means your folks were half-wits, esp. post- interregnum; Or one was lying: "Don't worry, I'm using protection." Wotsername the Dzur heir was no dummy, but Greycat evidently got his daughter on her. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Sun Jun 29 16:21:12 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 19:21:12 -0400 Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Philip Hart wrote: #I don't understand how anyone can actually launch a successful coup #against an Emperor able to use the Orb, which I believe gives one the #ability to fry anyone linked to it. This is the second or third time in the current thread that I've seen this power attributed to the Orb. Is this correct? The only similar thing I remember is from a conversation between Vlad and (Aliera? Kiera?). Vlad is surprised to learn that any citizen of the Empire can use his or her (sorry, Steve!) link to the Orb to contact the Emperor directly, but the Emperor can fry the person if he thinks his time is being wasted.* That attack might well use the current or just-used link through the Orb; we're not told so, but it's a reasonable possibility. It is certainly not the same as being able to fry anyone who has an Orb link. To the left, the stated danger in _Issola_ that if the Jenoine got control of the Orb, they could use it to control everyone who has an Orb link does suggest that the Emperor could, indeed, fry anyone linked to it, as you say. * I started to make the Emperor references gender-neutral in that sentence and quickly saw the merit of Steve's position. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mam at theworld.com Sun Jun 29 16:23:11 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 19:23:11 -0400 Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Philip Hart wrote: #We've talked about this recently - the Orb picks Adron. The Disaster #is caused by his spell trying to wrest control of the Orb from the #Emperor and give it to himself - but it segevs since he himself is the #Emperor, at least in his view and Tazendra's. The ambiguity on this point "segevs"? -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Jun 29 16:58:48 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 16:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > #We've talked about this recently - the Orb picks Adron. The Disaster > #is caused by his spell trying to wrest control of the Orb from the > #Emperor and give it to himself - but it segevs since he himself is the > #Emperor, at least in his view and Tazendra's. The ambiguity on this point > > "segevs"? Sorry, this is my short-hand for segment violation - "an error in which a running program attempts to access memory not allocated to it." A lot of my programs end this way, and while I may have weaker coding skills than Zerika, I can imagine she left a few bugs in the Orb. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Jun 29 17:13:58 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 17:13:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > #I don't understand how anyone can actually launch a successful coup > #against an Emperor able to use the Orb, which I believe gives one the > #ability to fry anyone linked to it. > > This is the second or third time in the current thread that I've seen > this power attributed to the Orb. Because I repeat myself. Do I repeat myself? Very well then, I repeat myself. > Is this correct? It's correct in the sense that I do believe the Orb has this ability, based on a soupc,on of speculation. > The only similar thing I remember is from a conversation between Vlad > and (Aliera? Kiera?). Vlad is surprised to learn that any citizen of the > Empire can use his or her (sorry, Steve!) link to the Orb to contact the > Emperor directly, but the Emperor can fry the person if he thinks his > time is being wasted.* [snip] > * I started to make the Emperor references gender-neutral in that > sentence and quickly saw the merit of Steve's position. How about: Vlad is surprised to learn that a citizen's link allows him or her to directly communicate with the Emperor, who may however fry anyone who does so frivolously. You could just recast the "citizen" as Vlad and avoid the gender question entirely: Vlad is surprised to learn that as a citizen he has the right use his link to communicate with the Emperor, but doing so frivolously might get him (and Loisosh) fried. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Jun 29 17:23:20 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 17:23:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Half-breed citizenship In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Fri, 20 Jun 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > #On the one hand, I like your theory - on the other, I like three competing > #ones: (1) a simple spell is available to prevent conception, so being a > #half-breed means your folks were half-wits, esp. post- interregnum; > > Or one was lying: "Don't worry, I'm using protection." Wotsername the > Dzur heir was no dummy, but Greycat evidently got his daughter on her. Sennya - maybe she was in fact a dummy, really young, or drunk, or ... Or one lied and purchased a spell to defeat the other's spell... Anyway, re my argument, Ibronka's conception was pre-Interregnum. It's interesting how unfecund the Dragaerans are (on the one hand a good thing, given their lifespan, on the other it's unfortunate given their bloodthirstiness). Note how energetically Khaavren congratulates Vernoi on his wife's pregnancy - I suspect there are other examples. Being a bastard means one's parents likely carried on for a long time. From dusty at sayersnet.com Sun Jun 29 18:37:41 2003 From: dusty at sayersnet.com (J A 'Dusty' Sayers) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 21:37:41 -0400 Subject: Half-breed citizenship References: Message-ID: <3EFF9465.59728223@sayersnet.com> Philip Hart wrote: > It's interesting how unfecund the Dragaerans are (on the one hand a good > thing, given their lifespan, on the other it's unfortunate given their > bloodthirstiness). Note how energetically Khaavren congratulates Vernoi > on his wife's pregnancy - I suspect there are other examples. Being a > bastard means one's parents likely carried on for a long time. Perhaps this has already been mentioned, and perhaps it's too simple to be even worthy of comment, but does it seem likely to others (as it does to me) that Dragaeran infertility or low fertility could be a result of Jenoine genetic tinkering? After all, crossbreeds as we know them are often sterile, and I gather than inbreeding weakens the gene pool as well (but I could be wrong; I am not a biologist, geneticist, or, if we take Vlad's occasional snide comments seriously, a zoologist). -- J A Dusty Sayers 'Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest do not happen at all. The conscientious historian will correct these defects.' -- Herodotus From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Jun 29 18:45:37 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 18:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Half-breed citizenship In-Reply-To: <3EFF9465.59728223@sayersnet.com> References: <3EFF9465.59728223@sayersnet.com> Message-ID: > 'Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest do not happen at > all. The conscientious historian will correct these defects.' > -- Herodotus That's a kick-ass .sig, especially in the context of a discussion of Paarfi. On the other hand, I can't recall reading this in Herodotus, and according to the web the proper attribution is, as so often, Mark Twain pretending to knowledge that improves on reality. From djshathe at hotmail.com Sun Jun 29 18:56:03 2003 From: djshathe at hotmail.com (Dejin Shathe) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 11:56:03 +1000 Subject: Half-breed citizenship Message-ID: Twain is apparently quoting Herodotus though. In the Acknowledgments for _A Horse's Tale_ - or som I'm told by those knowledgable in such things... -Dejin- "It is a fool's prerogative to utter truths that no-one else will speak." >From: Philip Hart >To: J A 'Dusty' Sayers >CC: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: Half-breed citizenship >Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 18:45:37 -0700 (PDT) > > > 'Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest do not happen at > > all. The conscientious historian will correct these defects.' > > -- Herodotus > >That's a kick-ass .sig, especially in the context of a discussion of >Paarfi. On the other hand, I can't recall reading this in Herodotus, and >according to the web the proper attribution is, as so often, Mark Twain >pretending to knowledge that improves on reality. _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is now available on Australian mobile phones. Go to http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/signup.asp From dusty at sayersnet.com Sun Jun 29 19:01:03 2003 From: dusty at sayersnet.com (J A 'Dusty' Sayers) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 22:01:03 -0400 Subject: Half-breed citizenship References: <3EFF9465.59728223@sayersnet.com> Message-ID: <3EFF99DF.434E9A4B@sayersnet.com> > > 'Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest do not happen at > > all. The conscientious historian will correct these defects.' > > -- Herodotus > > That's a kick-ass .sig, especially in the context of a discussion of > Paarfi. On the other hand, I can't recall reading this in Herodotus, and > according to the web the proper attribution is, as so often, Mark Twain > pretending to knowledge that improves on reality. Thanks for appreciating the signature. It's one of several that cycle automatically in my computer's background, but I'm glad it came up for this e-mail. Thanks for passing on that the attribution may be wrong; I originally heard it attributed to Herodotus in a classics course in college quite a few years ago and wrote it down because I liked it so well, but perhaps the professor was wrong, or perhaps Twain appropriated it later. I'll have to look into it myself, too. I ran it through Google a couple of times, and it turned up under Herodotus several times, but also as Twain quoting Herodotus once or twice, so I don't know how to take it. -- J A Dusty Sayers 'I have never been lost, but I was powerful confused for three days once.' -- Daniel Boone From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Jun 29 19:02:15 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 19:02:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Half-breed citizenship In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: FWIW, see http://omega.cohums.ohio-state.edu:8080/hyper-lists/classics-l/01-11-01/0541.html FWIW, I haven't read Herodotus in over fifteen years, but this doesn't sound like him to me. It does sound very much like Twain, and he has a, uhh, history of citing made-up quotes. On Mon, 30 Jun 2003, Dejin Shathe wrote: > Twain is apparently quoting Herodotus though. In the Acknowledgments for _A > Horse's Tale_ - or som I'm told by those knowledgable in such things... > > -Dejin- > > > > > "It is a fool's prerogative to utter truths that no-one else will speak." > > > > > > >From: Philip Hart > >To: J A 'Dusty' Sayers > >CC: dragaera at dragaera.info > >Subject: Re: Half-breed citizenship > >Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 18:45:37 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > 'Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest do not happen at > > > all. The conscientious historian will correct these defects.' > > > -- Herodotus > > > >That's a kick-ass .sig, especially in the context of a discussion of > >Paarfi. On the other hand, I can't recall reading this in Herodotus, and > >according to the web the proper attribution is, as so often, Mark Twain > >pretending to knowledge that improves on reality. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail is now available on Australian mobile phones. Go to > http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/signup.asp > > From dusty at sayersnet.com Sun Jun 29 19:10:17 2003 From: dusty at sayersnet.com (J A 'Dusty' Sayers) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 22:10:17 -0400 Subject: Half-breed citizenship References: Message-ID: <3EFF9C09.FF4D117F@sayersnet.com> Ah, thanks. That's interesting, and certainly plausible. I don't think it will make me change my .sig (as I'm willing to correct defects in history myself), but it's good to know in case someone brings it up again. Philip Hart wrote: > FWIW, see > http://omega.cohums.ohio-state.edu:8080/hyper-lists/classics-l/01-11-01/0541.html > > FWIW, I haven't read Herodotus in over fifteen years, but this doesn't > sound like him to me. It does sound very much like Twain, and he has a, > uhh, history of citing made-up quotes. > > On Mon, 30 Jun 2003, Dejin Shathe wrote: > > > Twain is apparently quoting Herodotus though. In the Acknowledgments for _A > > Horse's Tale_ - or som I'm told by those knowledgable in such things... > > > > -Dejin- > > > > > > > > > > "It is a fool's prerogative to utter truths that no-one else will speak." > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: Philip Hart > > >To: J A 'Dusty' Sayers > > >CC: dragaera at dragaera.info > > >Subject: Re: Half-breed citizenship > > >Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 18:45:37 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > > > 'Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest do not happen at > > > > all. The conscientious historian will correct these defects.' > > > > -- Herodotus > > > > > >That's a kick-ass .sig, especially in the context of a discussion of > > >Paarfi. On the other hand, I can't recall reading this in Herodotus, and > > >according to the web the proper attribution is, as so often, Mark Twain > > >pretending to knowledge that improves on reality. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Hotmail is now available on Australian mobile phones. Go to > > http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/signup.asp > > > > -- J A Dusty Sayers 'I have never been lost, but I was powerful confused for three days once.' -- Daniel Boone From davids at kithrup.com Sun Jun 29 19:50:19 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 19:50:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Half-breed citizenship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 2003, Philip Hart wrote: [regarding: "Along through the book I have distributed a few anachronisms and unborn historical incidents and such things, so as to help the tale over the difficult places. This ideas is not original with me; I got it out of Herodotus. Herodotus says, 'Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest do not happen at all: the conscientious historian will correct these defects.'" -- Mark Twain ] http://omega.cohums.ohio-state.edu/hyper-lists/classics-l/01-11-01/0541.html >FWIW, I haven't read Herodotus in over fifteen years, but this >doesn't sound like him to me. It does sound very much like Twain, >and he has a, uhh, history of citing made-up quotes. > I also liked the follow-up quote: What we have said already makes it further clear that a poet's object is not to tell what actually happened but what could and would happen either probably or inevitably. The difference between a historian and a poet is not that one writes in prose and the other in verse--indeed the writings of Herodotus could be put into verse and yet would still be a kind of history, whether written in metre or not. The real difference is this, that one tells what happened and the other what might happen. For this reason poetry is something more scientific and serious than history, because poetry tends to give general truths while history gives particular facts." -- Aristotle, Poetics 1451a Now I have the amusing notion of Steve Brust, Mark Twain, Aristotle, Herodotus & Paarfi of Roundwood all together at the Algonquin round table and discussing history. Perhaps while enjoying a meal of good Hungarian & Greek food. So, Steve - what would you say to Herodotus? From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Jun 29 19:55:10 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 19:55:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Half-breed citizenship In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Now I have the amusing notion of Steve Brust, Mark Twain, Aristotle, > Herodotus & Paarfi of Roundwood all together at the Algonquin round > table and discussing history. Perhaps while enjoying a meal of good > Hungarian & Greek food. Given that the time between Herodotus and Brust is only about 2500 years, it's conceivable that the five people you mention above couldn't have met (in the usual sense) - because they're all Paarfi... From davids at kithrup.com Sun Jun 29 20:29:27 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 20:29:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Half-breed citizenship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > >It's interesting how unfecund the Dragaerans are (on the one hand a >good thing, given their lifespan, on the other it's unfortunate given >their bloodthirstiness). Note how energetically Khaavren >congratulates Vernoi on his wife's pregnancy - I suspect there are >other examples. Being a bastard means one's parents likely carried >on for a long time. > Some very rough calculations: Humans (Easterner) menarche is at approx. 12 yrs, menopause at approx. 52 years, giving a span of fertility of about 40 years (hey, I like round numbers). Assuming 1 ovulation per month, that gives 480 ovulations. We don't know when Dragaerans menarche is, but lets assume its around 50 (close enough, I think). We don't know when menopause is either, but as a wild guess, let's say it's around 2450. Assuming that the number of ovulations is the same as it is for humans (again, a wild assumption), that means that they ovulate about once every 5 years. That sounds about right, for such a long-lived species. Now, for how long does each part of the menstrual cycle last? How long do they remain fertile within that 5-year period? A year? Half a year? (What's with Aliera? She's been in a very bad mood for a while. Oh, you know, it's that time of the decade for her.) From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Jun 29 21:00:37 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 21:00:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Half-breed citizenship In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jun 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > On Sun, 29 Jun 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > >It's interesting how unfecund the Dragaerans are I should note that I don't have as much solid evidence for this assertion as I'd like - e.g., some. > Some very rough calculations: [wild guesses snipped] > that means that they ovulate about once every 5 years. > Now, for how long does each part of the menstrual cycle last? How > long do they remain fertile within that 5-year period? A year? Half > a year? I would suspect that, given the danger of ectopic pregnancy, Dragaerans are fertile for more or less the same amount of time as humans are per cycle. If as you conjecture the cycle is five years, I would suspect there is greater variability - it's easier to count to thirty than 1500 - so without the aid of sorcery to know the days in question, begetting children would require months of dedicated work... Another interesting question is how long pregnancies are. The only bit of evidence I can cite is that Vernoi says his wife may be giving birth any day now, which seems more consistent than not with a (relatively) short and predictable length of time. Some wild speculation - Dragaerans heal at a rate similar to humans (or Vlad would have bitched or bragged), and other cellular processes (cell division in particular, relevant above) occur at similar rates as well. We haven't heard any reference to Dragaeran twins, have we? Maybe Verra's a triplet, of course... From alexx at TheWorld.com Mon Jun 30 09:56:56 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:56:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Half-breed citizenship In-Reply-To: from "Philip Hart" at Jun 30, 2003 09:35:12 AM Message-ID: <200306301656.MAA5647540@shell.TheWorld.com> > > Was this supposed to be off-list? Whoops! No, forwarding it now... > On Mon, 30 Jun 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > > > > On Sun, 29 Jun 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > > > > >It's interesting how unfecund the Dragaerans are > > > > > > I should note that I don't have as much solid evidence for this assertion > > > as I'd like - e.g., some. > > > > Vlad has claimed that Dragaerans cannot conceive involuntarily. > > Brust (on this very list?) has claimed that Vlad is an idiot, and that > > the truth is that Dragaeran contraception spells are trivial. This is > > obviously something that Vlad's various teachers could have failed to > > mention, as being obviously irrelevant to him (given that, so far as we > > know, Dragaerans and Easterners are not interfertile). > > > > At any rate, if maturation is similarly slow among them (which we have > > some evidence for in _Athyra_), it's unsurprising to find low birth > > rates. If you get woken up for 3 AM feedings for a decade, followed > > by a decade of carefully watching a toddler all the time, followed by > > a decade of "the terrible twenties"... Well, I can't imagine wanting > > to go through all that *again* anytime soon. > > > > Possibly Dragaerans in their "natural" state would be far more fecund. > > Indeed, that's a quality often considered a positive one in experimental > > animals, so the Jenoine might have deliberately made them so. That might > > have contributed to the whole "warring tribes" aspect of their early > > (post-Jenoine) history. Exponentially increasing demand for resources, > > coupled with excessively cranky parents (see previous paragraph) could > > account for a lot of warfare. > > > > Maybe part of why bastardy is so taboo is that "control of reproduction" > > is considered to be a fundamental pillar of Dragaeran civilization. > > > > Alexx > > > > Alexx Kay > > Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers > > alexx at world.std.com > > http://world.std.com/~alexx > > "Grown men, he told himself, in flat contradiction of centuries of > > accumulated evidence about the way grown men behave, do not behave > > like this." -- Douglas Adams From alexx at TheWorld.com Mon Jun 30 10:00:10 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 13:00:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Half-breed citizenship In-Reply-To: from "Philip Hart" at Jun 30, 2003 09:08:34 AM Message-ID: <200306301700.NAA5703790@shell.TheWorld.com> > > Note that in _TPotD_ we see people living (in sin or out) together > without sorcery but presumably with nookie and yet not procreating. > Sounds a lot like a QED should follow. It is suggestive evidence, though far from proof. Presumably, even in the absence of sorcery, they know what activities are (and are not) responsible for making babies. There are a variety of low-to-no-risk varieties of "whoopie" available to open-minded adults. Well, there are for humans at least, and it seems likely that that would carry over to Dragaerans as well. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box." -- Italian proverb From kisc at insaneninjahero.com Mon Jun 30 10:25:48 2003 From: kisc at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 11:25:48 -0600 Subject: Half-breed citizenship In-Reply-To: <200306301700.NAA5703790@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: I got the impression early on that Dragaerans choose when they're going to get pregnant. I don't remember the original reference saying anything about sorcery, but then, I don't remember what the original reference is, either. So, my question at this point becomes... am I the only one that still thinks it is just some extra control they have over their body? I've left out some other things that I thought to use to support my arguement, because I vowed to lurk for a while until I catch up with you people, but I had to ask that bit. Kisc > -----Original Message----- > From: Alexx S Kay [mailto:alexx at TheWorld.com] > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 11:00 AM > To: Philip Hart > Cc: Dragaera Mailing List > Subject: Re: Half-breed citizenship > > > > > > Note that in _TPotD_ we see people living (in sin or out) together > > without sorcery but presumably with nookie and yet not procreating. > > Sounds a lot like a QED should follow. > > It is suggestive evidence, though far from proof. Presumably, even in the > absence of sorcery, they know what activities are (and are not) > responsible > for making babies. There are a variety of low-to-no-risk varieties of > "whoopie" available to open-minded adults. Well, there are for humans > at least, and it seems likely that that would carry over to Dragaerans > as well. > > Alexx > > Alexx Kay > Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers > alexx at world.std.com > http://world.std.com/~alexx > "Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go > back in the same box." -- Italian proverb > From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Jun 30 10:32:16 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 10:32:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Half-breed citizenship In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: See Alexx's earlier post for a thorough discussion of the evidence. Note that (more?) conscious control of the cremaster muscle might allow voluntary male infertility - sperm need a narrow range of temperature and might be exposed to too much external cold or too much internal body heat... On Mon, 30 Jun 2003, Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert wrote: > I got the impression early on that Dragaerans choose when they're going to > get pregnant. I don't remember the original reference saying anything about > sorcery, but then, I don't remember what the original reference is, either. > > So, my question at this point becomes... am I the only one that still thinks > it is just some extra control they have over their body? > > I've left out some other things that I thought to use to support my > arguement, because I vowed to lurk for a while until I catch up with you > people, but I had to ask that bit. > > Kisc > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Alexx S Kay [mailto:alexx at TheWorld.com] > > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 11:00 AM > > To: Philip Hart > > Cc: Dragaera Mailing List > > Subject: Re: Half-breed citizenship > > > > > > > > > > Note that in _TPotD_ we see people living (in sin or out) together > > > without sorcery but presumably with nookie and yet not procreating. > > > Sounds a lot like a QED should follow. > > > > It is suggestive evidence, though far from proof. Presumably, even in the > > absence of sorcery, they know what activities are (and are not) > > responsible > > for making babies. There are a variety of low-to-no-risk varieties of > > "whoopie" available to open-minded adults. Well, there are for humans > > at least, and it seems likely that that would carry over to Dragaerans > > as well. > > > > Alexx > > > > Alexx Kay > > Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers > > alexx at world.std.com > > http://world.std.com/~alexx > > "Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go > > back in the same box." -- Italian proverb > > > > From kisc at insaneninjahero.com Mon Jun 30 10:36:26 2003 From: kisc at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 11:36:26 -0600 Subject: We need an RPG Message-ID: re-Reading all of the Taltos books (because I can't afford new books right now) has made me realize something. Mr. Brust, if you were to, say, get in touch with http://www.bioware.com and work with them to make a video game based on the Taltos universe, I would pre-order it RIGHT NOW. I... just wanted to say that. Kisc From ryan at wonko.com Mon Jun 30 10:58:40 2003 From: ryan at wonko.com (Ryan Grove) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 10:58:40 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: We need an RPG In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Jun 2003, Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert wrote: > re-Reading all of the Taltos books (because I can't afford new books > right now) has made me realize something. > > Mr. Brust, if you were to, say, get in touch with > http://www.bioware.com and work with them to make a video game based > on the Taltos universe, I would pre-order it RIGHT NOW. > > I... just wanted to say that. Amen to that, although I'd prefer a pencil and paper RPG. As a sidenote, if you want a slightly Brust-ish (and, in fact, Brust-inspired) pencil and paper RPG, give Exalted a try. The world isn't terribly like Dragaera, but there are little similarities throughout, and if you try hard enough, you can sort of pretend that it's Bizzaro-Dragaera. Sort of. If you're desperate. -- Ryan Grove ryan at wonko.com http://wonko.com/ From spenn at shaw.ca Mon Jun 30 11:13:11 2003 From: spenn at shaw.ca (Sean) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 11:13:11 -0700 Subject: We need an RPG References: Message-ID: <002a01c33f33$446de2c0$883e5418@dontbenosy> Darrill Guilbert said > re-Reading all of the Taltos books (because I can't afford new books right > now) has made me realize something. > > Mr. Brust, if you were to, say, get in touch with http://www.bioware.com and > work with them to make a video game based on the Taltos universe, I would > pre-order it RIGHT NOW. With the LOTR success, now is a very good time to pitch RPG video games - though Steve's work is likely not mainstream enough to get picked up on IP alone. Sean From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Mon Jun 30 11:26:42 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 18:26:42 +0000 Subject: Half-breed citizenship Message-ID: >On Mon, 30 Jun 2003, Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert wrote: > > > I got the impression early on that Dragaerans choose when they're going >to > > get pregnant. I don't remember the original reference saying anything >about > > sorcery, but then, I don't remember what the original reference is, >either. > > > > So, my question at this point becomes... am I the only one that still >thinks > > it is just some extra control they have over their body? Nope, I agree with you regarding once again the half-breed. Supose that the whole matter of pregnancy control is related to sorcery: according to FHYA (I haven't read yet POTD) it was quite ussual to have affairs between different houses, so during the interrregnum it should have been very usual to have half-breed from this realtions and during the Vlad's time there should have been more half-breed than it appears: I think that the only half-breed mentioned in Vlad's books (don't count Sethra) is the guy in _Jhereg_ (do not remeber its name and I have lost my copy, sorry). Therefore, I guess that, if there are not a lot of young half-breed in Dragaera, the pregnancy control cannot be sorcery-related. > > > > I've left out some other things that I thought to use to support my > > arguement, because I vowed to lurk for a while until I catch up with you > > people, but I had to ask that bit. > > > > Kisc > > _________________________________________________________________ Multiplica por cinco el tama?o de tu buz?n de correo y env?a adjuntos de hasta 2 Mb con MSN Almacenamiento Extra. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=es-es From knappenp at interaccess.com Mon Jun 30 11:41:44 2003 From: knappenp at interaccess.com (Paul Knappenberger) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 13:41:44 -0500 (CDT) Subject: We need an RPG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I know of at least two AberMUDs who have created Dragaerean areas, if you're interested in playing online with no graphics. On the one for which I write, the 'teleport' spell even makes you sick. On Mon, 30 Jun 2003, Ryan Grove wrote: > On Mon, 30 Jun 2003, Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert wrote: > > > re-Reading all of the Taltos books (because I can't afford new books > > right now) has made me realize something. > > > > Mr. Brust, if you were to, say, get in touch with > > http://www.bioware.com and work with them to make a video game based > > on the Taltos universe, I would pre-order it RIGHT NOW. > > > > I... just wanted to say that. > > Amen to that, although I'd prefer a pencil and paper RPG. > > As a sidenote, if you want a slightly Brust-ish (and, in fact, > Brust-inspired) pencil and paper RPG, give Exalted a try. The world > isn't terribly like Dragaera, but there are little similarities > throughout, and if you try hard enough, you can sort of pretend that > it's Bizzaro-Dragaera. Sort of. If you're desperate. > > -- > Ryan Grove > ryan at wonko.com > http://wonko.com/ > From genji_77 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 30 12:14:58 2003 From: genji_77 at hotmail.com (Genji) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:14:58 -0700 Subject: We need an RPG References: Message-ID: where does someone find them? Thanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Knappenberger" To: "Dragaera" Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 11:41 AM Subject: Re: We need an RPG I know of at least two AberMUDs who have created Dragaerean areas, if you're interested in playing online with no graphics. On the one for which I write, the 'teleport' spell even makes you sick. On Mon, 30 Jun 2003, Ryan Grove wrote: > On Mon, 30 Jun 2003, Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert wrote: > > > re-Reading all of the Taltos books (because I can't afford new books > > right now) has made me realize something. > > > > Mr. Brust, if you were to, say, get in touch with > > http://www.bioware.com and work with them to make a video game based > > on the Taltos universe, I would pre-order it RIGHT NOW. > > > > I... just wanted to say that. > > Amen to that, although I'd prefer a pencil and paper RPG. > > As a sidenote, if you want a slightly Brust-ish (and, in fact, > Brust-inspired) pencil and paper RPG, give Exalted a try. The world > isn't terribly like Dragaera, but there are little similarities > throughout, and if you try hard enough, you can sort of pretend that > it's Bizzaro-Dragaera. Sort of. If you're desperate. > > -- > Ryan Grove > ryan at wonko.com > http://wonko.com/ > From kisc at insaneninjahero.com Mon Jun 30 12:29:53 2003 From: kisc at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 13:29:53 -0600 Subject: We need an RPG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't consider myself certified to MMOG anymore... MUD, EverCrack, Galaxies, Matrix Online, none of it. Long story, lots of reasons, but, in a nutshell, it would be A Very Bad Thing. I'm happy that MUD still exists though. Sort of a "at least someone gets to have fun" kind of thing. Kisc > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Knappenberger [mailto:knappenp at interaccess.com] > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 12:42 PM > To: Dragaera > Subject: Re: We need an RPG > > > > I know of at least two AberMUDs who have created Dragaerean areas, if > you're interested in playing online with no graphics. On the one for which > I write, the 'teleport' spell even makes you sick. > > > > On Mon, 30 Jun 2003, Ryan Grove wrote: > > > On Mon, 30 Jun 2003, Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert wrote: > > > > > re-Reading all of the Taltos books (because I can't afford new books > > > right now) has made me realize something. > > > > > > Mr. Brust, if you were to, say, get in touch with > > > http://www.bioware.com and work with them to make a video game based > > > on the Taltos universe, I would pre-order it RIGHT NOW. > > > > > > I... just wanted to say that. > > > > Amen to that, although I'd prefer a pencil and paper RPG. > > > > As a sidenote, if you want a slightly Brust-ish (and, in fact, > > Brust-inspired) pencil and paper RPG, give Exalted a try. The world > > isn't terribly like Dragaera, but there are little similarities > > throughout, and if you try hard enough, you can sort of pretend that > > it's Bizzaro-Dragaera. Sort of. If you're desperate. > > > > -- > > Ryan Grove > > ryan at wonko.com > > http://wonko.com/ > > > > From kisc at insaneninjahero.com Mon Jun 30 12:32:00 2003 From: kisc at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 13:32:00 -0600 Subject: We need an RPG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Ryan Grove [mailto:ryan at wonko.com] > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 11:59 AM > To: Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert > Cc: Dragaera > Subject: Re: We need an RPG > > > On Mon, 30 Jun 2003, Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert wrote: > > > re-Reading all of the Taltos books (because I can't afford new books > > right now) has made me realize something. > > > > Mr. Brust, if you were to, say, get in touch with > > http://www.bioware.com and work with them to make a video game based > > on the Taltos universe, I would pre-order it RIGHT NOW. > > > > I... just wanted to say that. > > Amen to that, although I'd prefer a pencil and paper RPG. > > As a sidenote, if you want a slightly Brust-ish (and, in fact, > Brust-inspired) pencil and paper RPG, give Exalted a try. The world > isn't terribly like Dragaera, but there are little similarities > throughout, and if you try hard enough, you can sort of pretend that > it's Bizzaro-Dragaera. Sort of. If you're desperate. > Which I am. Unfortunately, I never learned how to find PnP RPGers to play with that are not complete idiots; I've given up on PnP for the time being. I can only stand so much arguing over rule interpretation before I start thinking about different ways to kill the varies parties arguing. Kisc From kisc at insaneninjahero.com Mon Jun 30 12:35:16 2003 From: kisc at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 13:35:16 -0600 Subject: We need an RPG In-Reply-To: <002a01c33f33$446de2c0$883e5418@dontbenosy> Message-ID: How many of us are on this list? Everyone would buy a copy, right? RIGHT?! Also, I think that if such a thing were done, we ought to plan for the PnP and CRPG to be released at the same time. Kisc > -----Original Message----- > From: Sean [mailto:spenn at shaw.ca] > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 12:13 PM > To: Dragaera > Subject: Re: We need an RPG > > > Darrill Guilbert said > > > re-Reading all of the Taltos books (because I can't afford new > books right > > now) has made me realize something. > > > > Mr. Brust, if you were to, say, get in touch with http://www.bioware.com > and > > work with them to make a video game based on the Taltos > universe, I would > > pre-order it RIGHT NOW. > > With the LOTR success, now is a very good time to pitch RPG video games - > though Steve's work is likely not mainstream enough to get picked up on IP > alone. > > Sean > > From warlord at dragon.com Mon Jun 30 12:43:05 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 15:43:05 -0400 Subject: Half-breed citizenship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mellar was his name. Vlads discussion concerning half-breeds was where it was revealed that with Dragaerans conception is a conscious act. If memory serves. Warlord At the turn of the cycle my true love gave to me, A Paarfi in a pear tree. (to be continued if I am allowed to live) > -----Original Message----- > From: Iv?n Rebollo [mailto:ivanrebollo at hotmail.com] > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 2:27 PM > To: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU; kisc at insaneninjahero.com > Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE: Half-breed citizenship > > > >On Mon, 30 Jun 2003, Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert wrote: > > > > > I got the impression early on that Dragaerans choose when > they're going > >to > > > get pregnant. I don't remember the original reference saying anything > >about > > > sorcery, but then, I don't remember what the original reference is, > >either. > > > > > > So, my question at this point becomes... am I the only one that still > >thinks > > > it is just some extra control they have over their body? > > Nope, I agree with you regarding once again the half-breed. > > Supose that the whole matter of pregnancy control is related to sorcery: > according to FHYA (I haven't read yet POTD) it was quite ussual to have > affairs between different houses, so during the interrregnum it > should have > been very usual to have half-breed from this realtions and during > the Vlad's > time there should have been more half-breed than it appears: I think that > the only half-breed mentioned in Vlad's books (don't count Sethra) is the > guy in _Jhereg_ (do not remeber its name and I have lost my copy, sorry). > Therefore, I guess that, if there are not a lot of young half-breed in > Dragaera, the pregnancy control cannot be sorcery-related. > > > > > > > I've left out some other things that I thought to use to support my > > > arguement, because I vowed to lurk for a while until I catch > up with you > > > people, but I had to ask that bit. > > > > > > Kisc > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Multiplica por cinco el tama?o de tu buz?n de correo y env?a adjuntos de > hasta 2 Mb con MSN Almacenamiento Extra. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=es-es From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Jun 30 13:02:24 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 13:02:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Half-breed citizenship Message-ID: <200306302002.h5UK2GI10040@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > At the turn of the cycle my true love gave to me, > A Paarfi in a pear tree. > (to be continued if I am allowed to live) Hehehehe..... Please do, but you can't stop at twelve; ya have to go to seventeen, of course. Chris "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, son." - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Jun 30 13:36:48 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 13:36:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Half-breed citizenship In-Reply-To: <200306302002.h5UK2GI10040@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200306302002.h5UK2GI10040@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: Athyras are obviously calling birds, issolas are swanish (though seven orcas swimming works too), I'd put phoenix in for partridge but Paarfi's better... Twelve drummers dreaming? annoying? Six Jheregs slaying? On Mon, 30 Jun 2003, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > At the turn of the cycle my true love gave to me, > > A Paarfi in a pear tree. > > (to be continued if I am allowed to live) > > Hehehehe..... Please do, but you can't stop at > twelve; ya have to go to seventeen, of course. > > Chris > > "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and > everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes > tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, > son." > - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm > > > From kisc at insaneninjahero.com Mon Jun 30 13:45:17 2003 From: kisc at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:45:17 -0600 Subject: Half-breed citizenship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Five GOOOOOLDEN PHOENIX!!!" Or maybe Phoenix stone, I dunno. > -----Original Message----- > From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU] > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 2:37 PM > To: Chris Olson - SunPS > Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info; warlord at dragon.com > Subject: RE: Half-breed citizenship > > > Athyras are obviously calling birds, issolas are swanish (though seven > orcas swimming works too), I'd put phoenix in for partridge but Paarfi's > better... Twelve drummers dreaming? annoying? Six Jheregs slaying? > > > On Mon, 30 Jun 2003, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > > > At the turn of the cycle my true love gave to me, > > > A Paarfi in a pear tree. > > > (to be continued if I am allowed to live) > > > > Hehehehe..... Please do, but you can't stop at > > twelve; ya have to go to seventeen, of course. > > > > Chris > > > > "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and > > everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes > > tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, > > son." > > - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm > > > > > > > From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Jun 30 13:50:06 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 13:50:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Half-breed citizenship In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There can be only one. The phoenix lays one egg, torches itself, then is reborn from the egg. Ok, not in Dragaera - or maybe there is really only one "phoenix-flyby-blessed-Phoenix" at a time and the House just covers this up. On Mon, 30 Jun 2003, Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert wrote: > "Five GOOOOOLDEN PHOENIX!!!" > > Or maybe Phoenix stone, I dunno. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU] > > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 2:37 PM > > To: Chris Olson - SunPS > > Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info; warlord at dragon.com > > Subject: RE: Half-breed citizenship > > > > > > Athyras are obviously calling birds, issolas are swanish (though seven > > orcas swimming works too), I'd put phoenix in for partridge but Paarfi's > > better... Twelve drummers dreaming? annoying? Six Jheregs slaying? > > > > > > On Mon, 30 Jun 2003, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > > > > > At the turn of the cycle my true love gave to me, > > > > A Paarfi in a pear tree. > > > > (to be continued if I am allowed to live) > > > > > > Hehehehe..... Please do, but you can't stop at > > > twelve; ya have to go to seventeen, of course. > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and > > > everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes > > > tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, > > > son." > > > - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm > > > > > > > > > > > > From kisc at insaneninjahero.com Mon Jun 30 13:54:43 2003 From: kisc at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:54:43 -0600 Subject: Half-breed citizenship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dunno, I got the impression that a Phoenix, while rare and special, isn't unique... certainly this wouldn't be the first mythos where that was the case. Besides, I was thinking more in terms of members of the house of Phoenix ... their hair and eyes are apparently gold without much exception. Kisc Should have been "FIIIIIIIIIIIVE GOLDEN PHOENIX!!!" anyway... > -----Original Message----- > From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU] > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 2:50 PM > To: Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert > Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE: Half-breed citizenship > > > There can be only one. The phoenix lays one egg, torches itself, then > is reborn from the egg. Ok, not in Dragaera - or maybe there is really > only one "phoenix-flyby-blessed-Phoenix" at a time and the House just > covers this up. > > > On Mon, 30 Jun 2003, Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert wrote: > > > "Five GOOOOOLDEN PHOENIX!!!" > > > > Or maybe Phoenix stone, I dunno. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU] > > > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 2:37 PM > > > To: Chris Olson - SunPS > > > Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info; warlord at dragon.com > > > Subject: RE: Half-breed citizenship > > > > > > > > > Athyras are obviously calling birds, issolas are swanish (though seven > > > orcas swimming works too), I'd put phoenix in for partridge > but Paarfi's > > > better... Twelve drummers dreaming? annoying? Six Jheregs slaying? > > > > > > > > > On Mon, 30 Jun 2003, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > > > > > > > At the turn of the cycle my true love gave to me, > > > > > A Paarfi in a pear tree. > > > > > (to be continued if I am allowed to live) > > > > > > > > Hehehehe..... Please do, but you can't stop at > > > > twelve; ya have to go to seventeen, of course. > > > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and > > > > everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes > > > > tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, > > > > son." > > > > - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From ambyrglow at softhome.net Mon Jun 30 14:01:42 2003 From: ambyrglow at softhome.net (Claire Rojstaczer) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:01:42 -0400 Subject: Half-breed citizenship In-Reply-To: References: <200306302002.h5UK2GI10040@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: >Athyras are obviously calling birds, issolas are swanish (though seven >orcas swimming works too), I'd put phoenix in for partridge but Paarfi's >better... Twelve drummers dreaming? annoying? Six Jheregs slaying? > While obvious not relevant for the purpose of this composition, I always got the feeling Issolas were more herons than swans. Claire "Two seas of Chaos. . ." From warlord at dragon.com Mon Jun 30 14:27:59 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:27:59 -0400 Subject: Half-breed citizenship In-Reply-To: <200306302002.h5UK2GI10040@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: I changed the rules a bit, but boringly stuck with the cycle for a base: At the turn of the cycle my true love gave to me: 1 Phoenix Orbing 17 Dragons fighting 16 Lyron's charging 15 Tiassas dreaming 14 Hawklords watching 13 Dzurlords winning 12 Issolas bowing 11 Tsalmoths being 10 Vallistas building 9 Jhereg Hoffas 8 Iorich remembering 7 Chreothas surfing 6 Yendi plotting 6 Orcas swimming DEVERA APPEARS 4 Timid Tecklas 3 Jhegaalas 2 Athyras casting and a Paarfi in a pear tree W Next week: Deck out Vallabars with Holly > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Olson - SunPS [mailto:Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM] > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 4:02 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info; warlord at dragon.com > Subject: RE: Half-breed citizenship > > > > At the turn of the cycle my true love gave to me, > > A Paarfi in a pear tree. > > (to be continued if I am allowed to live) > > Hehehehe..... Please do, but you can't stop at > twelve; ya have to go to seventeen, of course. > > Chris > > "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and > everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes > tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, > son." > - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm > > > > From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Jun 30 14:35:42 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 14:35:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Half-breed citizenship Message-ID: <200306302135.h5ULZWI08083@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > 9 Jhereg Hoffas Hehehe.... That's funny. > 6 Yendi plotting > 6 Orcas swimming Was this a mis-type, or are the Yendi just at it again? > DEVERA APPEARS That works very well, I think. > Next week: Deck out Vallabars with Holly Note to self: When you ask a list member for elaboration on a topic, be prepared for the results, however wild. Thanks, that was great! Chris From casey at trinityhartford.org Mon Jun 30 14:55:34 2003 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:55:34 -0400 Subject: Half-breed citizenship Message-ID: Claire wrote: > > "Two seas of Chaos. . ." > Clearly, it should be "Two Dragons dueling..." From casey at trinityhartford.org Mon Jun 30 14:58:09 2003 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:58:09 -0400 Subject: Half-breed citizenship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Warlord wrote: > I changed the rules a bit, but boringly stuck with the > cycle for a base: 'sgood, but it needs more aliteration. Don't need it every line, but... From warlord at dragon.com Mon Jun 30 14:59:51 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 17:59:51 -0400 Subject: Half-breed citizenship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Warlord wrote: > > I changed the rules a bit, but boringly stuck with the > > cycle for a base: > > 'sgood, but it needs more aliteration. Don't need it every line, but... > I *am* at work, and for 10 minutes of creativity (mostly typing) the aliteration level isn't too bad. And to answer Chris, the Yendi line was deliberate. :) W Look out! It's a thesaurus, with long dangling participles! From connor at virtual.net.au Mon Jun 30 17:44:10 2003 From: connor at virtual.net.au (Andrew Connor) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 10:44:10 +1000 Subject: We need an RPG References: Message-ID: <087001c33f69$e2e12df0$0301a8c0@connor> Well I definitely would. All that needs to be written is a d20 gazetteer type thing for the world, 'cos using the open source d20 rules, you'd be ready to play right away. In fact are there any map/world books out there for the Brustiverse? For example there are a few books for the Amber world (as written by Roger Zelazney) , so if there is any base material, it would be rather easy to turn into an RPG. Well there are only two primary races....the really tall elves and humans, and they cover the gambit of classes, the only difference is sorcerers use the Orb, as apposed to taping directly into the weave. I would definitely have fun running games in the world.....maybe I should begin writing something for it? Anyone know of any good (even online) resources? Andrew Connor http://connor.pandacrafts.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert" To: "Dragaera" Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 5:35 AM Subject: RE: We need an RPG > How many of us are on this list? > > Everyone would buy a copy, right? RIGHT?! > > Also, I think that if such a thing were done, we ought to plan for the PnP > and CRPG to be released at the same time. > > Kisc > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sean [mailto:spenn at shaw.ca] > > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 12:13 PM > > To: Dragaera > > Subject: Re: We need an RPG > > > > > > Darrill Guilbert said > > > > > re-Reading all of the Taltos books (because I can't afford new > > books right > > > now) has made me realize something. > > > > > > Mr. Brust, if you were to, say, get in touch with http://www.bioware.com > > and > > > work with them to make a video game based on the Taltos > > universe, I would > > > pre-order it RIGHT NOW. > > > > With the LOTR success, now is a very good time to pitch RPG video games - > > though Steve's work is likely not mainstream enough to get picked up on IP > > alone. > > > > Sean > > > > > > From pulmon at comcast.net Mon Jun 30 18:30:27 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 21:30:27 -0400 Subject: We need an RPG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <98012104-AB63-11D7-8571-0003938F1608@comcast.net> color me naive, but what does a rocket-propelled grenade have to do with the topic of this list? On Monday, June 30, 2003, at 01:36 PM, Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert wrote: > re-Reading all of the Taltos books (because I can't afford new books > right > now) has made me realize something. > > Mr. Brust, if you were to, say, get in touch with > http://www.bioware.com and > work with them to make a video game based on the Taltos universe, I > would > pre-order it RIGHT NOW. > > I... just wanted to say that. > > Kisc > From rone at ennui.org Mon Jun 30 18:46:28 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (epicanthic folderol) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 18:46:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Half-breed citizenship In-Reply-To: from Warlord at "Jun 30, 2003 05:59:51 pm" Message-ID: <20030701014628.4652E26E33@boredom.ennui.org> You'll all pay for putting Xmas songs into my head in the dead of summer. rone -- Imagine Garrison Keillor separating Humphrey Socialists from members of a rural militia during a basement political rally/Lutefisk boil in the basement of a small Lutheran church. - Matt Marchese , on politics in Wisconsin From pulmon at comcast.net Mon Jun 30 18:46:35 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 21:46:35 -0400 Subject: Half-breed citizenship In-Reply-To: <200306302002.h5UK2GI10040@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Monday, June 30, 2003, at 04:02 PM, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: >> At the turn of the cycle my true love gave to me, >> A Paarfi in a pear tree. >> (to be continued if I am allowed to live) > > Hehehehe..... Please do, but you can't stop at > twelve; ya have to go to seventeen, of course. Does that mean that addicts need to get into a 17-step program? From kisc at insaneninjahero.com Mon Jun 30 19:05:29 2003 From: kisc at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 20:05:29 -0600 Subject: We need an RPG In-Reply-To: <98012104-AB63-11D7-8571-0003938F1608@comcast.net> Message-ID: I just know I'm going to regret this but... RPG sometimes stands for Role-Playing Game, such as Dungeons and Dragons, Vampire the Masquerade, etc. It is the kind of game, whether Pen and Paper (PnP) or CRPG (Computer Role-Playing Game) where you take on the role of someone else (for instance, in your post, where you take on the role of someone who doesn't know what I'm talking about, whether you are serious or not). The essential component of an RPG (as opposed to every other sort of game where you take on the role of someone else) seems to be the customizability of the experience... contrasted to an FPS (first person shooter) where you generally are just a Space Marine without skills, etc, and there is only one path throught the game, in an RPG, you can generally choose whether to be good or evil, Wizard or Warrior (or Technolgist or Gunslinger, depending on the sort of game), etc, which may change the play experience dramatically. In addition, many RPG style games are heavily story oriented. Again, contrasting with Doom/Quake... In Quake, you're a space marine, and you have to kill all the bad guys, get to the big bad guy, and that's the game. In an RPG, you are trying to discover something, or solve something, and you have to pay attention to whatever you're told, as those sorts of hints may be important (or vital) to completing the game (or completing it in a certain fashion).Many games, such as the Jedi Knight series, blur the classification process by having elements of RPGs, FPSs, etc, in order to bring the best experience possible to the folks who play the games. As with many FPS style games, in some RPGs, you can use an RPG. Kisc > -----Original Message----- > From: Kenneth Gorelick [mailto:pulmon at comcast.net] > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 7:30 PM > To: Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert > Cc: Dragaera > Subject: Re: We need an RPG > > > color me naive, but what does a rocket-propelled grenade have to do > with the topic of this list? > On Monday, June 30, 2003, at 01:36 PM, Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert wrote: > > > re-Reading all of the Taltos books (because I can't afford new books > > right > > now) has made me realize something. > > > > Mr. Brust, if you were to, say, get in touch with > > http://www.bioware.com and > > work with them to make a video game based on the Taltos universe, I > > would > > pre-order it RIGHT NOW. > > > > I... just wanted to say that. > > > > Kisc > > > > From pulmon at comcast.net Mon Jun 30 19:29:09 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 22:29:09 -0400 Subject: We need an RPG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks for the clarification. I have been a fan of Brust/Dragaera for many years, but despite my regular use of a computer in work and communication, I have never played games on one. Dungeons and Dragons came in way after my time... Ken On Monday, June 30, 2003, at 10:05 PM, Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert wrote: > From: Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert > Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003 10:05:29 PM US/Eastern > To: Dragaera > Subject: RE: We need an RPG > > I just know I'm going to regret this but... > > RPG sometimes stands for Role-Playing Game, such as Dungeons and > Dragons, > Vampire the Masquerade, etc. It is the kind of game, whether Pen and > Paper > (PnP) or CRPG (Computer Role-Playing Game) where you take on the role > of > someone else (for instance, in your post, where you take on the role of > someone who doesn't know what I'm talking about, whether you are > serious or > not). The essential component of an RPG (as opposed to every other > sort of > game where you take on the role of someone else) seems to be the > customizability of the experience... contrasted to an FPS (first person > shooter) where you generally are just a Space Marine without skills, > etc, > and there is only one path throught the game, in an RPG, you can > generally > choose whether to be good or evil, Wizard or Warrior (or Technolgist or > Gunslinger, depending on the sort of game), etc, which may change the > play > experience dramatically. In addition, many RPG style games are heavily > story > oriented. Again, contrasting with Doom/Quake... In Quake, you're a > space > marine, and you have to kill all the bad guys, get to the big bad guy, > and > that's the game. In an RPG, you are trying to discover something, or > solve > something, and you have to pay attention to whatever you're told, as > those > sorts of hints may be important (or vital) to completing the game (or > completing it in a certain fashion).Many games, such as the Jedi Knight > series, blur the classification process by having elements of RPGs, > FPSs, > etc, in order to bring the best experience possible to the folks who > play > the games. > > As with many FPS style games, in some RPGs, you can use an RPG. > > Kisc > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kenneth Gorelick [mailto:pulmon at comcast.net] >> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 7:30 PM >> To: Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert >> Cc: Dragaera >> Subject: Re: We need an RPG >> >> >> color me naive, but what does a rocket-propelled grenade have to do >> with the topic of this list? From swiftone at swiftone.org Mon Jun 30 19:38:40 2003 From: swiftone at swiftone.org (Brett Sanger) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 22:38:40 -0400 Subject: We need an RPG In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030701023840.GC12629@swiftone.org> > Mr. Brust, if you were to, say, get in touch with http://www.bioware.com and > work with them to make a video game based on the Taltos universe, I would > pre-order it RIGHT NOW. Maybe it's because I'm not a computer gamer, but I don't see the appeal. What would the license add to the game? Now an pen and paper RPG, that'd be a different story. (Hmm, actually, I seem to recall Mr. Brust having a chat on Pyramid ( http://www.sjgames.com/pryamid/ ) [It's how I discovered his books], and I'm sure the topic would have come up. Time to see if I can locate that log. ) -- SwiftOne / Brett Sanger swiftone at swiftone.org From GibelMaria at aol.com Mon Jun 30 20:43:55 2003 From: GibelMaria at aol.com (GibelMaria at aol.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 23:43:55 EDT Subject: We need an RPG Message-ID: <12b.2d25d7ae.2c325d7b@aol.com> being a RPG and CRPG player I like both ideas.. butthen.. I am greedy. GB From zaphod at charter.net Mon Jun 30 21:53:08 2003 From: zaphod at charter.net (Greg Schwartz) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 00:53:08 -0400 Subject: We need an RPG References: Message-ID: <002501c33f8c$aac7d4a0$a4fd7644@ma.charter.com> CRPG's are pretty costly, and the video game market has 'gone hollywood', where development of stuff that isn't going to make HUGE amounts of money isn't worth the development cost. However, It might be doable with the Neverwinter Nights toolset. I enjoy the game quite a bit, but I'm not very familiar with the tools that come with the game. Short version is that you can make your own maps and stories and then get them sent to other players on the internet. The game is even multiplayer, although not massively. There are limitations on what the game company will allow since they don't want to be involved with any intellectual property battles, so that would have to be tackled first... but if you want one done, that is the easiest way to a quality Dragaera CRPG. -Greg Schwartz ----- Original Message ----- From: "Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert" To: "Dragaera" Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 1:36 PM Subject: We need an RPG > re-Reading all of the Taltos books (because I can't afford new books right > now) has made me realize something. > > Mr. Brust, if you were to, say, get in touch with http://www.bioware.com and > work with them to make a video game based on the Taltos universe, I would > pre-order it RIGHT NOW. > > I... just wanted to say that. > > Kisc > From spenn at shaw.ca Mon Jun 30 22:12:22 2003 From: spenn at shaw.ca (Sean) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 22:12:22 -0700 Subject: We need an RPG References: <20030701023840.GC12629@swiftone.org> Message-ID: <006f01c33f8f$5a64e220$883e5418@dontbenosy> From: "Brett Sanger" > Maybe it's because I'm not a computer gamer, but I don't see the appeal. > What would the license add to the game? Not much - Brust would be a niche market. The game would have to sell itself on its own merits for the most part. However, if it's a good game it will boost book sales and maybe spin off a movie or 3. Sean From kisc at insaneninjahero.com Mon Jun 30 22:30:55 2003 From: kisc at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 23:30:55 -0600 Subject: We need an RPG In-Reply-To: <20030701023840.GC12629@swiftone.org> Message-ID: The license, literally speaking, would add nothing. I just want to play a character in that world, fool around with learning that sorcery and combining it in bizarre ways with witchcraft, and the same with fencing and whatever the Dragaerans do (which reminds me of what those Germans with helmets and leather/metal sleeves evolved from). I would say that it is entirely because you are not a computer gamer. A little time spent with Fallout (1 & 2 are available together for $5 in the bargain bin these days), Arcanum (by some of the designers of Fallout 1), Deus Ex, System Shock 2 (never got a chance to play 1, but probably same deal), the several games based on Baldur's Gate (I&II, Icewind Dale I&II, user mods, etc), and Neverwinter Nights, just to name a quick few, you'd understand why I want to play it on computer. As I mentioned before, I have not had a great deal of luck finding PnP folks to play with the last few years. The last two groups I tried to play with particularly have put me off my feed for some time. I'm sure it is just that I don't know where to look or something. The folks that made Arcanum (Steam technology and magic) would probably be a good choice for making the game if Bioware wouldn't do it. Also, while it would be amusing to write a story or play a PnP game in SKZB's universe, I have a lazy streak when it comes to Other People's Stories. PC games are often simpler that PnP, primarily becase they are designed to be no more complex that you want them to be... this means I don't have to pay any more attention to any particular bit than I want to. I hope that helps :) Kisc > -----Original Message----- > From: Brett Sanger [mailto:swiftone at swiftone.org] > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 8:39 PM > To: Dragaera > Subject: Re: We need an RPG > > > > Mr. Brust, if you were to, say, get in touch with > http://www.bioware.com and > > work with them to make a video game based on the Taltos > universe, I would > > pre-order it RIGHT NOW. > > Maybe it's because I'm not a computer gamer, but I don't see the appeal. > What would the license add to the game? > > Now an pen and paper RPG, that'd be a different story. (Hmm, actually, > I seem to recall Mr. Brust having a chat on Pyramid ( > http://www.sjgames.com/pryamid/ ) [It's how I discovered his books], and > I'm sure the topic would have come up. Time to see if I can locate that > log. ) > > > -- > SwiftOne / Brett Sanger > swiftone at swiftone.org > From kisc at insaneninjahero.com Mon Jun 30 22:43:50 2003 From: kisc at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 23:43:50 -0600 Subject: We need an RPG In-Reply-To: <002501c33f8c$aac7d4a0$a4fd7644@ma.charter.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Schwartz [mailto:zaphod at charter.net] > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 10:53 PM > To: Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert; Dragaera > Subject: Re: We need an RPG > > > CRPG's are pretty costly, and the video game market has 'gone hollywood', > where development of stuff that isn't going to make HUGE amounts of money > isn't worth the development cost. > > However, It might be doable with the Neverwinter Nights toolset. > I enjoy the > game quite a bit, but I'm not very familiar with the tools that come with > the game. Short version is that you can make your own maps and stories and > then get them sent to other players on the internet. The game is even > multiplayer, although not massively. > > There are limitations on what the game company will allow since they don't > want to be involved with any intellectual property battles, so that would > have to be tackled first... but if you want one done, that is the easiest > way to a quality Dragaera CRPG. > > -Greg Schwartz Now if I can just convince someone else to do it. Like I said in another response, I've got a lazy streak when it comes to other people's stories. Plus, what I really want is a chance to be in that world. I haven't spent THAT much time with the toolset, but I don't think it will let me create a different magic schema. Kisc