From fides at kludgeco.com Tue Jul 1 01:25:13 2003 From: fides at kludgeco.com (Fides) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 09:25:13 +0100 Subject: We need an RPG References: Message-ID: <3F014569.5020100@kludgeco.com> Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert wrote: > >>However, It might be doable with the Neverwinter Nights toolset. >>I enjoy the >>game quite a bit, but I'm not very familiar with the tools that come with >>the game. Short version is that you can make your own maps and stories and >>then get them sent to other players on the internet. The game is even >>multiplayer, although not massively. >> >>There are limitations on what the game company will allow since they don't >>want to be involved with any intellectual property battles, so that would >>have to be tackled first... but if you want one done, that is the easiest >>way to a quality Dragaera CRPG. >> >>-Greg Schwartz > > > Now if I can just convince someone else to do it. > > Like I said in another response, I've got a lazy streak when it comes to > other people's stories. Plus, what I really want is a chance to be in that > world. I haven't spent THAT much time with the toolset, but I don't think it > will let me create a different magic schema. The other - and probably more difficult alternative would be to use something like the Unreal 2 engine. That would mean the game would be FPS based but you can script it to make it do anything. For example the Discworld TC Adventure game (http://www.discworldmod.net/ - see footnote for licencing arrangement). The problem with something like that is even with the engine it would take a team of people a few years to model and code everything. With regards tabletop stuff I doubt it would take that long to work out a rule set using either the GURPS system (it's been used for everything else including a number of book convertions ie Discworld and Callahan's) or using the new D20 system. Of course then you get licencing issues. Obviously if you were going to publish it you would have to licence it >from everyone. If you are just playing it in the privacy of your own home with your own home made rules then (that is what GURPS is for right?)... probably not so much of an issue. The real question would be what would happen if an unofficial set of suggestions based on 'I played this with my mates and it worked' was shared and discussed. ;-) Fides From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Tue Jul 1 03:12:02 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 03:12:02 -0700 Subject: We need an RPG In-Reply-To: <3F014569.5020100@kludgeco.com> References: <3F014569.5020100@kludgeco.com> Message-ID: <4en2gv4h6loekf98oc1v950ogbt0cem90b@4ax.com> On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 09:25:13 +0100, you wrote: > >With regards tabletop stuff I doubt it would take that long to work out >a rule set using either the GURPS system (it's been used for everything >else including a number of book convertions ie Discworld and Callahan's) >or using the new D20 system. Of course then you get licencing issues. >Obviously if you were going to publish it you would have to licence it >from everyone. If you are just playing it in the privacy of your own >home with your own home made rules then (that is what GURPS is for >right?)... probably not so much of an issue. The real question would be >what would happen if an unofficial set of suggestions based on 'I played >this with my mates and it worked' was shared and discussed. > >;-) > >Fides The best system I've seen (or, rather, my favourite) for easy adaptation is the Rolemaster system. It's based on percentiles, which lends an air of more realism, I find. Use of the Orb is rather like Channeling magic, so a minimum of adaptation would be needed. Really, the only magic adaptation I can think of would be a whole new spell list, to better fit the world. The tricky part is the world. We still don't know enough about a great many of the Houses, and a large part of the culture, so I'd think any campaign would have to be focused around Jheregs and Dragons and Dzurs, for the most part. What the heck do Jhegaalas do? Or Chreothas? Sounds like a new thread...... -- lazarus "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American Public." -- Theodore Roosevelt From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Tue Jul 1 03:19:02 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 03:19:02 -0700 Subject: Chreotha Message-ID: In an attempt to keep things going here, could we pass the time until LOCB comes out discussing some of the more obscure houses? For instance, what the heck do Chreothas do? What would a Chreotha reign be like? From Mark Mandel's page on the Houses, we learn that the Chreotha is shy or easily flustered, short?, dark?, has curly brown hair, flat features, pretty low class, and is a craftsman and a tailor. The lines referring to Chreotha are: Sly chreotha weaves his net Tread lightly near thine own traps. How weaving nets and setting traps leads to being a craftsman or tailor I dunno. Well, the weaving part I guess. We don't know the colours. Chreotha comes after Iorich, and just before Yendi. While they're low class, one assumes (rightly? I dunno.) that they are still nobility. So what would a Chreotha reign entail? A sort of low-grade Orca style mercantilism? How would this lead to a Yendi reign? Lord, now I'm trying to figure out the Yendi style of rule. I'm getting the headache..... -- lazarus "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American Public." -- Theodore Roosevelt From grapawy at yahoo.com Tue Jul 1 07:29:31 2003 From: grapawy at yahoo.com (Greg Rapawy) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 07:29:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Chreotha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030701142931.55771.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> --- lazarus wrote: [...] > Lord, now I'm trying to figure out the Yendi style of rule. > I'm getting the headache..... "Yendi? No, I'm sure the Cycle still points to the Chreotha. See? The Chreotha Emperor is on the throne, the Guard still wear the Chreotha colors. Why, yes, the Chreotha Reign has gone on uncommonly long, hasn't it? I'm sure the Yendi will have their turn soon enough. Never you mind about that." -- Greg From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Tue Jul 1 07:38:08 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 07:38:08 -0700 Subject: Chreotha In-Reply-To: <20030701142931.55771.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030701142931.55771.qmail@web21107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2673gv45bt0v1ea9g5pgve79md5ql7036s@4ax.com> On Tue, 1 Jul 2003 07:29:31 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >--- lazarus wrote: >[...] >> Lord, now I'm trying to figure out the Yendi style of rule. >> I'm getting the headache..... > >"Yendi? No, I'm sure the Cycle still points to the Chreotha. >See? The Chreotha Emperor is on the throne, the Guard still >wear the Chreotha colors. Why, yes, the Chreotha Reign has gone >on uncommonly long, hasn't it? I'm sure the Yendi will have >their turn soon enough. Never you mind about that." > >-- Greg I hate to do this, but LOL! -- lazarus "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American Public." -- Theodore Roosevelt From dar at horusinc.com Tue Jul 1 08:09:17 2003 From: dar at horusinc.com (dar) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 10:09:17 -0500 Subject: We need an RPG In-Reply-To: <4en2gv4h6loekf98oc1v950ogbt0cem90b@4ax.com> Message-ID: > The best system I've seen (or, rather, my favourite) for easy > adaptation is the Rolemaster system. It's based on percentiles, which > lends an air of more realism, I find. Use of the Orb is rather like > Channeling magic, so a minimum of adaptation would be needed. Really, > the only magic adaptation I can think of would be a whole new spell > list, to better fit the world. I agree, Rolemaster would probably work best. a new spell list might be required but I don't think that I'd bother personally. I'd be more tempted to run Sorcery as Essence magic, Witchcraft as Mentalism, and Elder Sorcery as the old Archmagic rules. Channeling? Perhaps as a different form of 'Sorcery' (ala Hybrid users) David From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Tue Jul 1 09:06:30 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 12:06:30 -0400 Subject: Jhereg reign References: <20030623194612.94940.qmail@web21110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3F01B186.2070704@earthlink.net> Genji wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > You forget SKZB's antiprohibitionist sympathies. I suspect he > would say it's like law enforcement as Vlad depicts it, only > *more so* -- more speeches by the Emperor about the importance > of public morality, more announcements of public crackdowns on > all sorts of vice, more public busts by the Guard of various > entrepreneurs who haven't made the proper contributions, or who > had the misfortune to make them to the wrong faction of the > Organization. And, as a result, higher prices, tighter control > by the Jhereg, and more money flowing into their coffers. > > ----------------------- > > That brings up an interesting idea ..... would they promote tighter control > by the government leading to higher prices in the "illegal operations" of > the house, or would they get while the getting is good and mainstream their > operations for maximum coverage while there are few restrictions? This > latter would certainly get every last imperial from the teckla. I seem to recall the Vallista reign as being the prohibitionist reign, and once the Jhereg were nice and fat on their profits from such a reign, they would bribe the emperor to step down (I assume that if the bribe works, then the cycle has turned). I wish I could remember which book this was in; I'm not away from my books, but I have no idea which one it might be. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Tue Jul 1 09:06:41 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 12:06:41 -0400 Subject: Half-breed citizenship References: <1351D7A6-A5EE-11D7-B7A9-0003938F1608@comcast.net> Message-ID: <3F01B191.8050205@earthlink.net> Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > The Dragon-Jhereg half-breed is atypical since there is no genetic > "Jhereg". A Jhereg can be a genetic Dragon--how would a Dragon > geneticist figure that out? I know that Jhereg isn't considered exactly canon, being the first book in a series that wasn't expected to be a series, but in it, Aliera says that the mish-mash of genes in House Jhereg has over time congealed into a valid genetic marker; this allows her to properly identify someone's lineage as genetic Jhereg. As for a Dragon geneticist figuring out that a genetic Dragon is in fact a Jhereg, well, it should be fairly easy if they're trying to actually figure that out. It wouldn't involve genetics, but rather checking the Dragon repository of information (or wherever their records are kept). For example, Kragar is genetic Dragon, but is a Jhereg. I think that if a Dragon geneticist was trying to determine Kragar's house and determined that he is a pure Dragon, he'd also look at expulsion records and realize he's really a Jhereg. Note that Kragar has put on his Dragon outfit and impersonated a Dragon several times to get information for Vlad. I have a feeling that the setting that he's operating in when trying to obtain said information would preclude a genetic or any other "official" test of House. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Tue Jul 1 09:06:51 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 12:06:51 -0400 Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb References: <6D85A259.77957FCF.00048EA6@aol.com> <6D85A259.77957FCF.00048EA6@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030625125720.0332cd68@camail2.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <3F01B19B.6060103@earthlink.net> Philip Hart wrote: > > from whole cloth in the non-fatal reception of the novel. And I think > Sethra's agreeing to correspond with him represents evidence that he has > some chops worth respecting. I still stand behind Damien's interpretation of Paarfi claiming a brief but fascinating correspondence with Sethra: > > "Will you do me the honor of answering some small questions about certain > events concerning the Interregnum?" > > "No." Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Tue Jul 1 09:06:56 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 12:06:56 -0400 Subject: Cycle Turns (Was: Link to the Orb) References: <7967f0798591.7985917967f0@icomcast.net> Message-ID: <3F01B1A0.4090106@earthlink.net> Philip Hart wrote: > > ITYHNRTMTAA What does this mean? Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Jul 1 09:50:58 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 09:50:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cycle Turns (Was: Link to the Orb) In-Reply-To: <3F01B1A0.4090106@earthlink.net> References: <7967f0798591.7985917967f0@icomcast.net> <3F01B1A0.4090106@earthlink.net> Message-ID: This means I was being snide - if you read the previous sentences I was saying "I think you have no reason to make the above assertion" repeatedly, in part because the tone of the post to which I was replying was in my view much too insistent, without the "suggest"s and "can be interepreted"s and "seems to me"s that the historian ought to deploy in analyzing such an assortment of texts as we have before us. On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, Jose Marquez wrote: > > Philip Hart wrote: > > > > ITYHNRTMTAA > > What does this mean? > > Jose > -- > Jose Marquez > jhereg69 at earthlink.net > > From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Tue Jul 1 10:02:05 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 13:02:05 -0400 Subject: We need an RPG References: <3F014569.5020100@kludgeco.com> <4en2gv4h6loekf98oc1v950ogbt0cem90b@4ax.com> Message-ID: <3F01BE8D.1010906@earthlink.net> Just chiming in on the RPG topic... In addition to those PnP systems already mentioned, I know of a couple who are currently working out rules for running a Dragaera-based RPG using the 7th Sea d10 system. Also, I seem to recall that Stacy (starshadw) was creating an online RPG and had several people involved (as well as Steve's permission). I don't know what happened to that, though. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Jul 1 10:04:23 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 10:04:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How does someone get a link to the Orb In-Reply-To: <3F01B19B.6060103@earthlink.net> References: <6D85A259.77957FCF.00048EA6@aol.com> <6D85A259.77957FCF.00048EA6@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20030625125720.0332cd68@camail2.harvard.edu> <3F01B19B.6060103@earthlink.net> Message-ID: This sounds a bit more like a Paarfi-Aliera dialogue to me - note that iirc we don't see anything from an Aliera-oriented viewpoint in _FHYA_ except for a brief interlude probably thrown in to spice things up (and probably clipped by one of the Brusts so the this-world edition would have a wider readership.) "Can I... " - "No", while a limited correspondence, is not fascinating, so Paarfi's either lying (known these days I believe as "exaggerating") or well on his way to newtdom. It seems to me that Sethra might well recognize the value to the Empire of a certain dissemination of historical knowledge. On the other hand, a recent survey of Americans supposedly found that a large section of the country believes that WMDs have not only been found in Iraq, but were actually used on our forces - and we're still doing fine, so here's a raspberry to historical knowledge. On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, Jose Marquez wrote: > > Philip Hart wrote: > > > > from whole cloth in the non-fatal reception of the novel. And I think > > Sethra's agreeing to correspond with him represents evidence that he has > > some chops worth respecting. > > I still stand behind Damien's interpretation of Paarfi claiming a brief > but fascinating correspondence with Sethra: > > > > > "Will you do me the honor of answering some small questions about certain > > events concerning the Interregnum?" > > > > "No." > > Jose > -- > Jose Marquez > jhereg69 at earthlink.net > > From davids at kithrup.com Tue Jul 1 10:53:56 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 10:53:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Concerning RPGs Message-ID: Just out of curiosity, was there not some discussion of a Dragaera RPG right here? http://dragaera.info/onlinerpg-list/rules.html I see that http://dragaera-rpg.com/ is a dead link. Is everyone who was involved with that gone from this list as well? What the hell happened, anyway? From spenn at shaw.ca Tue Jul 1 11:56:03 2003 From: spenn at shaw.ca (Sean) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 11:56:03 -0700 Subject: We need an RPG References: Message-ID: <000f01c34002$6c051310$883e5418@dontbenosy> From: "dar" > I agree, Rolemaster would probably work best. a new spell list might be > required but I don't think that I'd bother personally. I'd be more tempted > to run Sorcery as Essence magic, Witchcraft as Mentalism, and Elder Sorcery > as the old Archmagic rules. Channeling? Perhaps as a different form of > 'Sorcery' (ala Hybrid users) > > David > For pen and paper I'd suggest the Champions system by ICE. It used to be Fantasy Hero, Champions (superheroes) and a few other genres, but since the system is truly generic, they combined them all into one system - Champions. What makes this system powerful is its simplicity (a minimum of tables) and its flexibility. I've created many worlds with it - everything from fantasy to 20s gangsters to cartoons to sci-fi and weird combinations. For example - an energy blast is generic - but you can give it the special effect fire, add the advantage area effect, the limit of once a day and even base it on a focus (like a wand or ring or sentient sword) and voila it's a fireball. I love this system because if you have a strong world/character concept in mind, you can create it exactly. Perfect for the Taltos world with its varied magics and weird weapons and races. Sean From swiftone at swiftone.org Tue Jul 1 12:05:24 2003 From: swiftone at swiftone.org (Brett Sanger) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 15:05:24 -0400 Subject: We need an RPG In-Reply-To: <000f01c34002$6c051310$883e5418@dontbenosy> References: <000f01c34002$6c051310$883e5418@dontbenosy> Message-ID: <20030701190524.GI20289@swiftone.org> > > I agree, Rolemaster would probably work best. a new spell list might be > For pen and paper I'd suggest the Champions system by ICE. It used to be Well heck, if we're playing Name Your System, I'd recommend Fudge. Far less rule-intensive than the systems named so far, but highly flexible. http://www.fudgerpg.com -- SwiftOne / Brett Sanger swiftone at swiftone.org From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Tue Jul 1 12:05:39 2003 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 12:05:39 -0700 Subject: LoCB Message-ID: ONE MONTH!!!! Does anyone have a scheduled date for release of LoCB? (Beginning, middle, or end of August?) James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From melalvai at kemenel.org Tue Jul 1 18:47:04 2003 From: melalvai at kemenel.org (Rachel L. Ruhlen) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 20:47:04 -0500 Subject: Dodge City.... In-Reply-To: <200306271810.h5RIARI27549@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Chris Olson - SunPS [mailto:Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM] Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 1:11 PM To: WyrmOuroboros at comcast.net; mam at theworld.com Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Dodge City.... >So, what's so special, or terrible, about Dodge that >people always want to get out of there so badly? I've been there. It smells like cows. But so did most of the other towns I visited out there. Rachel From tmer at eudoramail.com Wed Jul 2 06:30:51 2003 From: tmer at eudoramail.com (Barbara Baj) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 09:30:51 -0400 Subject: Concerning RPGs Message-ID: The project was run by Starshadow and from the beginning had a rather small and quietish membership. She started a game based on Gurps, run off the dead link you mentioned. Unfortunately, RL happened to me and I fell off the planet out of necessity, so I lost touch with the project, and can't say what happened. She did say that if interest wasn't there, she'd close things down, so perhaps that is what happened. - B -- --------- Original Message --------- DATE: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 10:53:56 From: David Silberstein To: Dragaera List Cc: >Just out of curiosity, was there not some discussion of a Dragaera RPG >right here? > > http://dragaera.info/onlinerpg-list/rules.html > >I see that > http://dragaera-rpg.com/ >is a dead link. > >Is everyone who was involved with that gone from this list as well? >What the hell happened, anyway? > > Need a new email address that people can remember Check out the new EudoraMail at http://www.eudoramail.com From genji_77 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 2 12:10:32 2003 From: genji_77 at hotmail.com (Genji) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 12:10:32 -0700 Subject: Half-breed citizenship References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Silberstein" To: "Dragaera List" Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 8:29 PM Subject: RE: Half-breed citizenship (What's with Aliera? She's been in a very bad mood for a while. Oh, you know, it's that time of the decade for her.) -------------------------- hahahahaha, roflmao From mattonim at engineering.ucsb.edu Wed Jul 2 16:40:35 2003 From: mattonim at engineering.ucsb.edu (Michael Mattoni) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 16:40:35 -0700 Subject: LoCB Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030702163912.0109ebc0@imap.engr.ucsb.edu> >ONE MONTH!!!! > >Does anyone have a scheduled date for release of LoCB? (Beginning, middle, >or end of August?) > > >James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN According to Amazon, it's August 1. I've generally found their info to be accurate. Mike == Michael Mattoni Ph.D. Candidate Materials Department University of California Santa Barbara, CA 93106-5050 Phone: (805) 893-8374 Fax: (805) 893-8971 From jazzfish at softhome.net Thu Jul 3 06:41:36 2003 From: jazzfish at softhome.net (Tucker) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 09:41:36 -0400 Subject: LoCB In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20030702163912.0109ebc0@imap.engr.ucsb.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20030703093905.023a46e0@pro.softhome.net> >>Does anyone have a scheduled date for release of LoCB? (Beginning, >>middle, or end of August?) >According to Amazon, it's August 1. I've generally found their info to be >accurate. Um, that's more of what they call 'sarcasm,' right? I mean, this is the same Amazon that not only insisted the next George Martin book would be out in April (before he was done writing it) but had a page count and everything... Having said that I'd believe August 1, since LoCB isn't street-dated (meaning bookstores don't get smacked down for selling it earlier than Day X) and Waldens gets most 'release this month' books the first week of the month. ---- "I can't think of much worse than spending a lifetime doing something that isn't what you want to do." --Neil Gaiman, 2003-05-18 From genji_77 at hotmail.com Thu Jul 3 09:58:50 2003 From: genji_77 at hotmail.com (Genji) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 09:58:50 -0700 Subject: Half-breed citizenship References: Message-ID: seven souls a swallowed six morganti weapons fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiive jhereg nobles in godslayer ..... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Hart" To: "Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert" Cc: Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 1:50 PM Subject: RE: Half-breed citizenship There can be only one. The phoenix lays one egg, torches itself, then is reborn from the egg. Ok, not in Dragaera - or maybe there is really only one "phoenix-flyby-blessed-Phoenix" at a time and the House just covers this up. On Mon, 30 Jun 2003, Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert wrote: > "Five GOOOOOLDEN PHOENIX!!!" > > Or maybe Phoenix stone, I dunno. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU] > > Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 2:37 PM > > To: Chris Olson - SunPS > > Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info; warlord at dragon.com > > Subject: RE: Half-breed citizenship > > > > > > Athyras are obviously calling birds, issolas are swanish (though seven > > orcas swimming works too), I'd put phoenix in for partridge but Paarfi's > > better... Twelve drummers dreaming? annoying? Six Jheregs slaying? > > > > > > On Mon, 30 Jun 2003, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > > > > > At the turn of the cycle my true love gave to me, > > > > A Paarfi in a pear tree. > > > > (to be continued if I am allowed to live) > > > > > > Hehehehe..... Please do, but you can't stop at > > > twelve; ya have to go to seventeen, of course. > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and > > > everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes > > > tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, > > > son." > > > - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm > > > > > > > > > > > > From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Thu Jul 3 16:02:57 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 16:02:57 -0700 Subject: Chreotha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030703230257.GA15989@ofb.net> On Tue, Jul 01, 2003 at 03:19:02AM -0700, lazarus wrote: > The lines referring to Chreotha are: > Sly chreotha weaves his net > Tread lightly near thine own traps. > Chreotha comes after Iorich, and just before Yendi. While they're low > class, one assumes (rightly? I dunno.) that they are still nobility. > So what would a Chreotha reign entail? A sort of low-grade Orca style > mercantilism? How would this lead to a Yendi reign? Or low-grade Yendi scheming, later co-opted and replaced by the better Yendi? -xx- Damien X-) From curtis.humes at verizon.net Fri Jul 4 08:23:27 2003 From: curtis.humes at verizon.net (Gnosis) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 08:23:27 -0700 Subject: We need an RPG In-Reply-To: <20030701190524.GI20289@swiftone.org> Message-ID: <005001c34241$3d2c3280$0100007f@curtis8nhgs8j2> Another really simple system (as far as rules goes) is the Risus system. My RPGing group used this for a game set in the Dragaeran world. The nice thing about it was that we could incorporate anything from the books easily. Curtis Humes curtis.humes at verizon.net taltos at verizon.net -----Original Message----- From: Brett Sanger [mailto:swiftone at swiftone.org] Sent: Tuesday, 01 July, 2003 12:05 PM To: Dragaera Subject: Re: We need an RPG > > I agree, Rolemaster would probably work best. a new spell list might be > For pen and paper I'd suggest the Champions system by ICE. It used to be Well heck, if we're playing Name Your System, I'd recommend Fudge. Far less rule-intensive than the systems named so far, but highly flexible. http://www.fudgerpg.com -- SwiftOne / Brett Sanger swiftone at swiftone.org From feaelin at kemenel.org Sat Jul 5 07:38:04 2003 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Iain E. Davis) Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 09:38:04 -0500 Subject: We need an RPG In-Reply-To: <005001c34241$3d2c3280$0100007f@curtis8nhgs8j2> Message-ID: <000c01c34303$0d91fce0$6501a8c0@Khaavren> (Various system suggestions snipped) (I'm cc'ing this to the list that I was last on intending for the same purpose) ------------------------------------ System selection seems to cause the early death of attempts to express Dragaera as a role-playing game. :). I've seen it at least twice before. I would suggest that rather than selecting a system, instead attempt to come up with a generic set of information. Then each person/group will be able to easily express Dragaera in their favorite system. The generic data may not need to be statistical at all but instead descriptive. Such as a list of magic effects that we know are possible, because we've "seen" them happen: Teleportation, Revivification, etc. Possibly with some comment on how common/easy the effect is, but avoid trying to define actual mechanics to deal with it. However, it wouldn't hurt for everyone involved to compare notes about what their favorite system is, so that later, they can split up into smaller groups intended to convert the descriptive information into statistical & mechanical information specific to their favorite system. :) Iain From mneme at io.com Sun Jul 6 01:31:06 2003 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 03:31:06 -0500 Subject: We need an RPG In-Reply-To: <000c01c34303$0d91fce0$6501a8c0@Khaavren> References: <005001c34241$3d2c3280$0100007f@curtis8nhgs8j2> <000c01c34303$0d91fce0$6501a8c0@Khaavren> Message-ID: <16135.56906.672157.259121@hagbard.io.com> Iain E. Davis writes: > System selection seems to cause the early death of attempts to >express Dragaera as a role-playing game. :). Quite. Personally, I -hate- many of the systems proposed, but can deal well with a largish number of "alternative" systems (OTE, Marvel, Nobilis, even Amber). But that's not really relevant. >before. I would suggest that rather than selecting a system, instead >attempt to come up with a generic set of information. Then each >person/group will be able to easily express Dragaera in their favorite >system. Quite. I don't see a reaosn not to include system specific info with the compiled information, if available, but it should be the system-independant information that masters, not the system-dependant stuff. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From Shoot0187 at aol.com Sun Jul 6 18:42:23 2003 From: Shoot0187 at aol.com (Shoot0187 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 21:42:23 EDT Subject: www.dragaera-rpg.com ? Message-ID: <15d.20fa5c79.2c3a29ff@aol.com> Hey guys, I've just recently rejoined the list and was wondering if any of you knew what happened to the above web site? If I remember correctly it was one of the best out there. Anyone know if it's moved or is it gone for good? "I didn't spend all those years playing D&D and not learn a little something about courage." -Some Dork, The X-Files Erik Holmes Shoby187 at yahoo.com AIM: ErikHolmes ICQ: 2593395 MSN: Shoby187 at hotmail.com Y!: Shoby187 at yahoo.com From zizban at adelphia.net Sun Jul 6 18:44:35 2003 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 21:44:35 -0400 Subject: www.dragaera-rpg.com ? In-Reply-To: <15d.20fa5c79.2c3a29ff@aol.com> Message-ID: <906D64AA-B01C-11D7-BB2E-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> It was started with great enthusiasm..a lot of people wanted it but when push came to shove, no one joined, so it was ended. On Sunday, July 6, 2003, at 09:42 PM, Shoot0187 at aol.com wrote: > Hey guys, > > I've just recently rejoined the list and was wondering if any of you > knew > what happened to the above web site? If I remember correctly it was > one of the > best out there. Anyone know if it's moved or is it gone for good? > > "I didn't spend all those years playing D&D and not learn a little > something about courage." > -Some Dork, The X-Files > > Erik Holmes > HREF="http://us.f132.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ > Compose?To=Shoby187 at yahoo.com&YY=74823&order=up&sort=date&pos=0&view=a& > head=b">Shoby187 at yahoo.com > AIM: ErikHolmes > ICQ: 2593395 > MSN: HREF="http://us.f132.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ > Compose?To=Shoby187 at hotmail.com&YY=74823&order=up&sort=date&pos=0&view= > a&head=b">Shoby187 at hotmail.com > Y!: HREF="http://us.f132.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ > Compose?To=Shoby187 at yahoo.com&YY=74823&order=up&sort=date&pos=0&view=a& > head=b">Shoby187 at yahoo.com > --- "If they've already seen your best they can do without the rest, don't ya know."---James McMutry From zizban at adelphia.net Sun Jul 6 18:50:56 2003 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 21:50:56 -0400 Subject: www.dragaera-rpg.com ? In-Reply-To: <2d.311c9fa1.2c3a2b91@aol.com> Message-ID: <7317504B-B01D-11D7-BB2E-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> I didn't actually set it up. Someone else did. --- "Everybody generalizes from one example. At least, I do."--Steven Brust From tmer at eudoramail.com Mon Jul 7 06:31:54 2003 From: tmer at eudoramail.com (Barbara Baj) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 09:31:54 -0400 Subject: We need an RPG Message-ID: This is actually an excellent suggestion, I think. There are many RPG systems out there, and everyone will have his or her favorite system. What Starshadow had done was a whole lot of great work, but as I also have found in life, when things come down to it, there are few folks to do the actual work. I think the dragaera-rpg *list* is still around since I saw someone sending a note out on it a week or so ago. Working out non-system specific things might help move things along, since one tends to have to *fit* something into a system rather than develop a system out of a framework that one has. At least I think it's a good way to approach the problem. :) - B -- --------- Original Message --------- DATE: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 09:38:04 From: "Iain E. Davis" To: Cc: >(Various system suggestions snipped) >(I'm cc'ing this to the list that I was last on intending for the same >purpose) >------------------------------------ > System selection seems to cause the early death of attempts to >express Dragaera as a role-playing game. :). I've seen it at least twice >before. I would suggest that rather than selecting a system, instead >attempt to come up with a generic set of information. Then each >person/group will be able to easily express Dragaera in their favorite >system. > >The generic data may not need to be statistical at all but instead >descriptive. Such as a list of magic effects that we know are possible, >because we've "seen" them happen: Teleportation, Revivification, etc. >Possibly with some comment on how common/easy the effect is, but avoid >trying to define actual mechanics to deal with it. > >However, it wouldn't hurt for everyone involved to compare notes about what >their favorite system is, so that later, they can split up into smaller >groups intended to convert the descriptive information into statistical & >mechanical information specific to their favorite system. :) > >Iain > > Need a new email address that people can remember Check out the new EudoraMail at http://www.eudoramail.com From genji_77 at hotmail.com Wed Jul 9 17:09:39 2003 From: genji_77 at hotmail.com (Genji) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 17:09:39 -0700 Subject: This list still working? References: <003101c339b9$cae2cca0$d916fea9@ananda> <5.1.0.14.0.20030624074106.03bea0a0@localhost> Message-ID: It has been a few days without emails from this group ... checking to see if it is still working From warlord at dragon.com Wed Jul 9 17:34:24 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 20:34:24 -0400 Subject: This list still working? In-Reply-To: References: <003101c339b9$cae2cca0$d916fea9@ananda> <5.1.0.14.0.20030624074106.03bea0a0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030709203347.039d8728@pop.dragon.com> At 17:09 7/9/2003 -0700, Genji wrote: >It has been a few days without emails from this group ... checking to see if >it is still working Beuller ? ....... Beuller ? ....... Beuller ? ......... From zizban at adelphia.net Wed Jul 9 17:32:08 2003 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 20:32:08 -0400 Subject: This list still working? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030709203347.039d8728@pop.dragon.com> Message-ID: On Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 08:34 PM, Warlord wrote: > At 17:09 7/9/2003 -0700, Genji wrote: >> It has been a few days without emails from this group ... checking to >> see if >> it is still working > > Beuller ? ....... Beuller ? ....... Beuller ? ......... This is one of those rare times the list has gone silent. It has happened before. --- "If they've already seen your best they can do without the rest, don't ya know."---James McMutry From djshathe at hotmail.com Wed Jul 9 18:05:24 2003 From: djshathe at hotmail.com (Dejin Shathe) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 11:05:24 +1000 Subject: This list still working? Message-ID: Fry? .................. Fry? ....................... Fry? ...................... Sorry - I can't help doing that - it's a hardwired instinctive reaction. "It is a fool's prerogative to utter truths that no-one else will speak." >From: Warlord >To: "Dragaera Mailing List" >Subject: Re: This list still working? >Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 20:34:24 -0400 > >At 17:09 7/9/2003 -0700, Genji wrote: >>It has been a few days without emails from this group ... checking to see >>if >>it is still working > >Beuller ? ....... Beuller ? ....... Beuller ? ......... > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is now available on Australian mobile phones. Go to http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/signup.asp From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Jul 9 18:18:22 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 18:18:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: References: <003101c339b9$cae2cca0$d916fea9@ananda> <5.1.0.14.0.20030624074106.03bea0a0@localhost> Message-ID: As preparation for a certain imminent threat, I just started rereading _TPotD_ and came across a few minor things I don't understand, e.g.: It seems to me that I'm rereading Book One of The Viscount of Adrilankha, aka TPotD. So what happens after chapter 17, when Book Two is announced? How does Paarfi know that Chapter One begins on a Homeday, and is this a Dragaeran name for the day (which seems odd to use in the East)? On page 31, "SB" complains about Paarfi referring to a "two-story stone bungalow", which my dictionary calls "a small house or cottage, usually with one or one and a half stories". Whatever that means. So does this reflect more on "SB"? Miska names Morrolan in the language of the Silatan - who are they to Morollan? And why does Morrolan not stick with a name in a language he speaks - maybe Paarfi simplifying? Note that later (pg 82) Teldra calls them the Silites. In Morrolan's dream (pg 44), he sees a fish with jewels for eyes (green and red) - are these the e'Drien colors? On pg 46, Paarfi refers to 17 tribes (culturalist), or 16 (biologist), or 21 (rationalist) in "the earliest days of the Empire". Huh? Ok, the Jhereg weren't a distictive mishmash yet, so that makes 16 (assuming there weren't any noticeable remnants of the 33?-17 tribes the Jenoine made). But what's 21? Kieron and non-Kieron Dragons? Sethra is a tribe unto herself? Chapters 2 and 5-7 - Arra starts referring to M. as "milord" in Chapter 5 (though not "Lord Morrolan"). Why is this? Why does Lady Teldra do the same? Arra certainly isn't part of the Empire, and T hardly more so. What's up with the depiction of M as a figurehead? Arra seems to be doing all the work and having all the visions, while M is single-minded and celibate and busy not getting older or being curious. The instructions to the Circle ("have them meet us there as best they can in their own time") seem comically vague, given the lifespans and geography involved, and the fact that many chapters (and a few years) later, M&Co are still stuck in the East without any of the Circle showing up - wouldn't a few have tagged along? (Maybe Paarfi is simplifying the tedious truth here). From feaelin at kemenel.org Thu Jul 10 08:15:09 2003 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Iain E. Davis) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 10:15:09 -0500 Subject: Relevant Links (Dragaera as RPG) Message-ID: <002301c346f6$136d1180$6501a8c0@Khaavren> Since I was curious, I did a quick google search for "dragaera RPG" I turned up a couple of links of interest: http://www.tlucretius.net/Dragaera/ (The group using 7th Sea for Dragaera) http://www.bears-cave.com/swift/ (Dragaera using something called "SWIFT") Additionally, I think "Small Invisible Lights"[1] (http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/default.html) and Mark Mandel's Cracks and Shards (http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/). [1] While there, I made the mistake of looking at the "teasers" for the graphic novel. I think I would have preferred the hot poker. Iain ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- "To live is to scrounge, taking what you can in order to survive. So, since living is scrounging, the result of our efforts is to amass a pile of rubbish." - Chuang Tzu/Zhuangzi, China, 4th Century BCE From valerie at drizzle.com Thu Jul 10 09:12:57 2003 From: valerie at drizzle.com (valerie at drizzle.com) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 09:12:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Relevant Links (Dragaera as RPG) In-Reply-To: <002301c346f6$136d1180$6501a8c0@Khaavren> References: <002301c346f6$136d1180$6501a8c0@Khaavren> Message-ID: <10399.206.124.138.14.1057853577.squirrel@drizzlemail.drizzle.com> Additionally, I think "Small Invisible Lights"[1] > (http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/default.html) and Mark Mandel's Cracks and > Shards (http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/). > > > [1] While there, I made the mistake of looking at the "teasers" for the > graphic novel. I think I would have preferred the hot poker. > > Iain the captions were a hoot. my favorite: "The Left Hand of the Jhereg welcomes you to Gor." ha! -valerie From feaelin at kemenel.org Thu Jul 10 09:30:34 2003 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Iain E. Davis) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 11:30:34 -0500 Subject: Relevant Links (Dragaera as RPG) In-Reply-To: <10399.206.124.138.14.1057853577.squirrel@drizzlemail.drizzle.com> Message-ID: <000301c34700$96922c80$6501a8c0@Khaavren> > From: valerie at drizzle.com [mailto:valerie at drizzle.com] > the captions were a hoot. my favorite: Oh yes. Surprisingly kinder than I would have been, but definitely funny. :) > "The Left Hand of the Jhereg welcomes you to Gor." :). From zizban at adelphia.net Thu Jul 10 14:20:00 2003 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 17:20:00 -0400 Subject: Relevant Links (Dragaera as RPG) In-Reply-To: <002301c346f6$136d1180$6501a8c0@Khaavren> Message-ID: <4379B02F-B31C-11D7-883F-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 11:15 AM, Iain E. Davis wrote: > [1] While there, I made the mistake of looking at the "teasers" for the > graphic novel. I think I would have preferred the hot poker. > > Iain Or a root canal with plyers and a hand drill. --- "Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself (I am large, I contain multitudes)."--Walt Whitman From usagigoya at hotmail.com Thu Jul 10 14:32:19 2003 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:32:19 +0000 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ Message-ID: >Philip Hart - Wed, 09 Jul 2003 18:18:22 -0700 (PDT) said: > >As preparation for a certain imminent threat, I just started rereading >_TPotD_ and came across a few minor things I don't understand, e.g.: I have also just reread PotD as well as Taltos (and now back to rereading Dragon)... >Miska names Morrolan in the language of the Silatan - who are they to >Morrolan? And why does Morrolan not stick with a name in a language he >speaks - maybe Paarfi simplifying? Note that later (pg 82) Teldra calls >them the Silites. Ok, my question is, in Taltos when Aliera first meets Morrolan, she recognizes the name as being related to Morrolan's fathers name... How does she do this if his name is taken from a foreign language? >The instructions to the Circle ("have them meet us there as best they can >in their own time") seem comically vague, given the lifespans and >geography involved, and the fact that many chapters (and a few years) >later, M&Co are still stuck in the East without any of the Circle showing >up - wouldn't a few have tagged along? (Maybe Paarfi is simplifying the >tedious truth here). Noish-pa lived or at least visited the East, since he was able to "show" Vlad stars and clouds, etc. Is he or maybe his parents part of Morrolan's circle of witches? I think it is in Phoenix where Noish-pa and Morrolan first meet (according to Vlad's account of things). Going back to Taltos, why does Morrolan keep telling Vlad how he helped Zerika II regain the orb and reform the empire. He also stated he was at Deathgate Falls fighting off brigands while Zerika made her decent. Is it Vlad misquoting him or was Morrolan trying to impress Vlad with a little(?) white lie? Or maybe Paarfi is mistaken on who actually accompanied Zerika on that adventure and Morrolan's whereabouts and involvement in it (maybe, for some reason, his involvement is a state secret which Paarfi is out of the loop on, and also explains why Morrolan seemed to make so little progress on his trip west... (btw, whatever happened to the honorable profession of proof-reader? obviously, Tor no longer seems to use them, even the mmpb version of Dragon is full of typos...) _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From usagigoya at hotmail.com Thu Jul 10 14:37:55 2003 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:37:55 +0000 Subject: Relevant Links (Dragaera as RPG) Message-ID: I have to admit that I NO LONGER have a desire to find or purchase the Jhereg graphic novel after checking out the images on that web-site. I'm glad he had posted them and did enjoy the comments. I actually ran across the site a day or two before you posted the links... thanks anyways! _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Thu Jul 10 14:34:43 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 14:34:43 -0700 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9nmrgv8sgqt8m604e8m0ufonad4c4vduq0@4ax.com> Warning: Spoilers ahoy! On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 21:32:19 +0000, you wrote: >Going back to Taltos, why does Morrolan keep telling Vlad how he helped >Zerika II regain the orb and reform the empire. He also stated he was at >Deathgate Falls fighting off brigands while Zerika made her decent. Is it >Vlad misquoting him or was Morrolan trying to impress Vlad with a little(?) >white lie? Or maybe Paarfi is mistaken on who actually accompanied Zerika on >that adventure and Morrolan's whereabouts and involvement in it (maybe, for >some reason, his involvement is a state secret which Paarfi is out of the >loop on, and also explains why Morrolan seemed to make so little progress on >his trip west... A while back, we had some discussion of this on the list. Since Tazendra was indeed there, but appears to not be in the circle that Vlad is hanging around in, when she should be, some think possibly Tazendra is no longer with us. In addition, she introduced herself as a Lavode, but Lavodes don't exist anymore either. We also know from Issola that a soul is, at least once, part of the creation of a Great Weapon. So, quite possibly, Tazendra is now the soul in Blackwand. Given Morrolan's mystic bent and oddly archaic way of speaking, it's entirely likely that he would refer to memories he derived from Tazendra's soul (as Blackwand) as his own. Just a theory, of course. It's entirely likely that Steve lied to keep us on our toes, or that a Yendi is working as editor at Tor. -- lazarus "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American Public." -- Theodore Roosevelt From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Jul 10 14:43:31 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 14:43:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ Message-ID: <200307102143.h6ALhJI10669@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Ok, my question is, in Taltos when Aliera first meets Morrolan, she > recognizes the name as being related to Morrolan's fathers name... How does > she do this if his name is taken from a foreign language? I assume she knows the language and translates it in her head, coming the the conclusion of his parentage. > Noish-pa lived or at least visited the East, since he was able to "show" > Vlad stars and clouds, etc. Is he or maybe his parents part of Morrolan's > circle of witches? I think it is in Phoenix where Noish-pa and Morrolan > first meet (according to Vlad's account of things). Yes, I believe they meet there for the first time. It's possible that a relative of Noish-pa's was a part of the Circle, and would be interesting, but I think Noish-pa would know about it. > Going back to Taltos, why does Morrolan keep telling Vlad how he helped > Zerika II regain the orb and reform the empire. He also stated he was at > Deathgate Falls fighting off brigands while Zerika made her decent. Is it > Vlad misquoting him or was Morrolan trying to impress Vlad with a little(?) > white lie? Or maybe Paarfi is mistaken on who actually accompanied Zerika on > that adventure and Morrolan's whereabouts and involvement in it (maybe, for > some reason, his involvement is a state secret which Paarfi is out of the > loop on, and also explains why Morrolan seemed to make so little progress on > his trip west... Not sure on this one; I plan on waiting for the rest of _Viscount_ before assuming Morollan, Vlad, or Paarfi were writing with the left hand.... Chris "If you can't live without me, die already." ~Cynthia Heimel From feaelin at kemenel.org Thu Jul 10 14:44:52 2003 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Iain E. Davis) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 16:44:52 -0500 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: <200307102143.h6ALhJI10669@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <000f01c3472c$861ff400$6501a8c0@Khaavren> > From: Chris Olson - SunPS [mailto:Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM] > Yes, I believe they meet there for the first time. It's > possible that a relative of Noish-pa's was a part of the > Circle, and would be interesting, but I think Noish-pa would > know about it. Would know, perhaps, but not necessarily comment on it. I think Noish-pa often operates on a need-to-know basis. :) From casey at trinityhartford.org Thu Jul 10 14:46:50 2003 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 17:46:50 -0400 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Steve Hubbell wrote: > Ok, my question is, in Taltos when Aliera first meets Morrolan, she > recognizes the name as being related to Morrolan's fathers name... > How does she do this if his name is taken from a foreign language? Simple. She knew his father pre-Interregnum, and geneticists are often interested in genealogy (and therefore names) even if they aren't the daughter of the Heir. Also, I think the quote is "That sounds about right." > Going back to Taltos, why does Morrolan keep telling Vlad how he helped > Zerika II regain the orb and reform the empire. Take a look at the list archives. We discussed this quite a bit. The 5 cent version is: a) Different unreliable narrators. and b)"Much will be revealed in the rest of Viscount." Casey From Chrisf.Olson at sun.com Thu Jul 10 14:47:46 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at sun.com (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 14:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ Message-ID: <200307102147.h6ALlYI11275@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > > Yes, I believe they meet there for the first time. It's > > possible that a relative of Noish-pa's was a part of the > > Circle, and would be interesting, but I think Noish-pa would > > know about it. > > Would know, perhaps, but not necessarily comment on it. I think Noish-pa > often operates on a need-to-know basis. :) True. He's a good deal like Verra, that way..... Hmmm.... Nah, couldn't be. Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From melalvai at kemenel.org Thu Jul 10 18:17:31 2003 From: melalvai at kemenel.org (Rachel L. Ruhlen) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 20:17:31 -0500 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Casey Rousseau [mailto:casey at trinityhartford.org] Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 4:47 PM To: Dragaera Subject: RE: started rereading _TPotD_ >Steve Hubbell wrote: >> Ok, my question is, in Taltos when Aliera first meets Morrolan, she >> recognizes the name as being related to Morrolan's fathers name... >> How does she do this if his name is taken from a foreign language? > >Simple. She knew his father pre-Interregnum, and geneticists are often >interested in genealogy (and therefore names) even if they aren't the >daughter of the Heir. Also, I think the quote is "That sounds about right." > >> Going back to Taltos, why does Morrolan keep telling Vlad how he helped >> Zerika II regain the orb and reform the empire. > >Take a look at the list archives. We discussed this quite a bit. The 5 >cent version is: a) Different unreliable narrators. and b)"Much will be >revealed in the rest of Viscount." I hope not too much will be revealed. It's so much more fun to keep guessing. Also, if too much is revealed then I have to give up my pet theories. Such as that Tazendra is the sorceress who blows herself up, leaving that Teckla alive to learn sorcery and become part of Kelly's group and steal Cawti away from Vlad. Rachel From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Fri Jul 11 00:42:50 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 07:42:50 +0000 Subject: Relevant Links (Dragaera as RPG) Message-ID: >[1] While there, I made the mistake of looking at the "teasers" for the >graphic novel. I think I would have preferred the hot poker. I made it too. I will not blame the interesting Aliera's cleavage, but what had they done with Morrolan??? _________________________________________________________________ Accede al romance onine. Descubre gente que busca a otra gente en MSN Amor & Amistad. http://match.msn.es/ From zarkon at illrepute.org Fri Jul 11 08:00:38 2003 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:00:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Relevant Links (Dragaera as RPG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, Iv?n Rebollo wrote: @> >[1] While there, I made the mistake of looking at the "teasers" for the @> >graphic novel. I think I would have preferred the hot poker. @> @> I made it too. I will not blame the interesting Aliera's cleavage, but what @> had they done with Morrolan??? You know, when I think of assassins, I immediately think of the color orange. Also, I have to ask: did the artist arrive in our age directly >from 1977, possibly through a time warp of some kind? Honestly, though? It could be a lot worse than that. Well, OK, not a /whole/ lot, but still. At least they remembered that Aliera levitates. From warlord at dragon.com Fri Jul 11 08:22:50 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:22:50 -0400 Subject: Relevant Links (Dragaera as RPG) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030711111940.037f07d0@pop.dragon.com> At 11:00 7/11/2003 -0400, John Klein wrote: >On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, Iv?n Rebollo wrote: > >@> >[1] While there, I made the mistake of looking at the "teasers" for the >@> >graphic novel. I think I would have preferred the hot poker. >@> >@> I made it too. I will not blame the interesting Aliera's cleavage, but >what >@> had they done with Morrolan??? > >You know, when I think of assassins, I immediately think of the color >orange. Also, I have to ask: did the artist arrive in our age directly >from 1977, possibly through a time warp of some kind? > >Honestly, though? It could be a lot worse than that. Well, OK, not a >/whole/ lot, but still. At least they remembered that Aliera levitates. Think of it this way: It is a book cover in the form of a graphic novel. W "Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come." From casey at trinityhartford.org Fri Jul 11 08:26:54 2003 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:26:54 -0400 Subject: Relevant Links (Dragaera as RPG) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030711111940.037f07d0@pop.dragon.com> Message-ID: Warlord wrote: > Think of it this way: It is a book cover in the form of a graphic novel. I had a comic book version of Moby Dick as a kid. It did a _much_ better job of presenting a much bigger work than what I've seen from that site. Yeah, book cover is about right. Don't pay any attention to it. Casey From jalipaz at stanford.edu Fri Jul 11 10:02:33 2003 From: jalipaz at stanford.edu (Julie Alipaz) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 10:02:33 -0700 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: <9nmrgv8sgqt8m604e8m0ufonad4c4vduq0@4ax.com> References: <9nmrgv8sgqt8m604e8m0ufonad4c4vduq0@4ax.com> Message-ID: > > >So, quite possibly, Tazendra is now the soul in Blackwand. Given >Morrolan's mystic bent and oddly archaic way of speaking, it's >entirely likely that he would refer to memories he derived from >Tazendra's soul (as Blackwand) as his own. > I thought that the soul in blackwand was M's high priestis/teacher as their relationship is quite close and he is already very protective of her. jaa From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Fri Jul 11 10:05:47 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 10:05:47 -0700 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: References: <9nmrgv8sgqt8m604e8m0ufonad4c4vduq0@4ax.com> Message-ID: <9hrtgv40kq7fhak5ahnqtfvjp90gb0uq2r@4ax.com> On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 10:02:33 -0700, you wrote: >> >> >>So, quite possibly, Tazendra is now the soul in Blackwand. Given >>Morrolan's mystic bent and oddly archaic way of speaking, it's >>entirely likely that he would refer to memories he derived from >>Tazendra's soul (as Blackwand) as his own. >> >I thought that the soul in blackwand was M's high priestis/teacher as >their relationship is quite close and he is already very protective >of her. > > >jaa That's another quite strong possibility, but we have no idea. All we know is that Blackwand is bloodthirsty and loves raging battles and has a strong sorcerous element, which sounds a great deal like Tazendra. Also, Blackwand is Morrolan's familiar, which sounds like his high priestess. So I dunno. -- lazarus "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American Public." -- Theodore Roosevelt From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Jul 11 10:22:58 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 10:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: <9hrtgv40kq7fhak5ahnqtfvjp90gb0uq2r@4ax.com> References: <9nmrgv8sgqt8m604e8m0ufonad4c4vduq0@4ax.com> <9hrtgv40kq7fhak5ahnqtfvjp90gb0uq2r@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, lazarus wrote: > >I thought that the soul in blackwand was M's high priestis/teacher as > >their relationship is quite close and he is already very protective > >of her. > > > > > >jaa > > That's another quite strong possibility, but we have no idea. All we > know is that Blackwand is bloodthirsty and loves raging battles and > has a strong sorcerous element, which sounds a great deal like > Tazendra. Also, Blackwand is Morrolan's familiar, which sounds like > his high priestess. So I dunno. "A strong sorcerous element" doesn't sound like Tazendra - maybe "a useful but otherwise pedestrian sorcerous element". Also she's not really bloodthirsty, is she? Blood certainly is a side-effect of her personality, but it is not imho an end in itself for her. I vote for Arra-in-the-sword, because Tazendra belongs out in the world and because Morrolan would have a better sense of humor if he talked to Tazendra all day. From kisc at insaneninjahero.com Fri Jul 11 11:03:15 2003 From: kisc at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 12:03:15 -0600 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, lazarus wrote: > > > >I thought that the soul in blackwand was M's high priestis/teacher as > > >their relationship is quite close and he is already very protective > > >of her. > > > > > > > > >jaa > > > > That's another quite strong possibility, but we have no idea. All we > > know is that Blackwand is bloodthirsty and loves raging battles and > > has a strong sorcerous element, which sounds a great deal like > > Tazendra. Also, Blackwand is Morrolan's familiar, which sounds like > > his high priestess. So I dunno. > > > "A strong sorcerous element" doesn't sound like Tazendra - maybe > "a useful but otherwise pedestrian sorcerous element". Also she's not > really bloodthirsty, is she? Blood certainly is a side-effect of her > personality, but it is not imho an end in itself for her. > > I vote for Arra-in-the-sword, because Tazendra belongs out in the world > and because Morrolan would have a better sense of humor if he talked to > Tazendra all day. Holy hell, he'd HAVE to have a better sense of humor to SURVIVE talking to Tazendra all day. I don't want to say she's an idiot, but sometimes I'm thinking she's the http://www.gamerjargon.com/gamer3_cd.html#chaotic%20stupid Chaotic Stupid of the party. From pulmon at comcast.net Fri Jul 11 12:31:10 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 15:31:10 -0400 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3A0C0EF8-B3D6-11D7-8571-0003938F1608@comcast.net> Why do you think that Morrolan PUT the soul in the sword? The Great weapons were created long ago, with only Godslayer having been delayed by the gods themselves. Why is not the soul thousands of years old, and Morrolan acquired Blackwand in an entirely other manner (lady in the lake, anyone?) Ken On Friday, July 11, 2003, at 02:03 PM, Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert wrote: >> On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, lazarus wrote: >> >>>> I thought that the soul in blackwand was M's high priestis/teacher >>>> as >>>> their relationship is quite close and he is already very protective >>>> of her. >>>> >>>> >>>> jaa >>> >>> That's another quite strong possibility, but we have no idea. All we >>> know is that Blackwand is bloodthirsty and loves raging battles and >>> has a strong sorcerous element, which sounds a great deal like >>> Tazendra. Also, Blackwand is Morrolan's familiar, which sounds like >>> his high priestess. So I dunno. >> >> >> "A strong sorcerous element" doesn't sound like Tazendra - maybe >> "a useful but otherwise pedestrian sorcerous element". Also she's not >> really bloodthirsty, is she? Blood certainly is a side-effect of her >> personality, but it is not imho an end in itself for her. >> >> I vote for Arra-in-the-sword, because Tazendra belongs out in the >> world >> and because Morrolan would have a better sense of humor if he talked >> to >> Tazendra all day. > > Holy hell, he'd HAVE to have a better sense of humor to SURVIVE > talking to > Tazendra all day. I don't want to say she's an idiot, but sometimes I'm > thinking she's the > http://www.gamerjargon.com/gamer3_cd.html#chaotic%20stupid Chaotic > Stupid of > the party. > From mam at theworld.com Fri Jul 11 12:35:55 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 15:35:55 -0400 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: <3A0C0EF8-B3D6-11D7-8571-0003938F1608@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: #Why do you think that Morrolan PUT the soul in the sword? The Great #weapons were created long ago, with only Godslayer having been delayed #by the gods themselves. Do we have textev for that? -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Jul 11 13:41:46 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 13:41:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > > #Why do you think that Morrolan PUT the soul in the sword? The Great > #weapons were created long ago, with only Godslayer having been delayed > #by the gods themselves. > > Do we have textev for that? It seems to me simplest to imagine that Blackwand hasn't been lying around 200 millenia or so unsouled - if so, it's odd the gods would allow a powerful weapon against the Jenoine to not-rust unburnished, not to shine in use. However, Pathfinder is bonded to Aliera though she didn't kill anyone (one hopes) to achieve the effect; note that Pathfinder doesn't have an apparent gender (_Issola_, Chapter 11) - maybe some GWs aren't human alloys. From warlord at dragon.com Fri Jul 11 13:50:25 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 16:50:25 -0400 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, Mark A Mandel emitted: > > > On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > > > > #Why do you think that Morrolan PUT the soul in the sword? The Great > > #weapons were created long ago, with only Godslayer having been delayed > > #by the gods themselves. > > > > Do we have textev for that? > > It seems to me simplest to imagine that Blackwand hasn't been lying around > 200 millenia or so unsouled - if so, it's odd the gods would allow a > powerful weapon against the Jenoine to not-rust unburnished, not to shine > in use. However, Pathfinder is bonded to Aliera though she didn't kill > anyone (one hopes) to achieve the effect; note that Pathfinder doesn't > have an apparent gender (_Issola_, Chapter 11) - maybe some GWs aren't > human alloys. I noticed this and it is why I think the soul in Pathfinder is Drien. W Clip..Clop....clip..clop....Clip..Clop... ( an Amish drive by shunning ) From zarkon at illrepute.org Fri Jul 11 14:01:00 2003 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:01:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, Warlord wrote: @> > > #Why do you think that Morrolan PUT the soul in the sword? The Great @> > > #weapons were created long ago, with only Godslayer having been delayed @> > > #by the gods themselves. @> > > @> > > Do we have textev for that? @> > @> > It seems to me simplest to imagine that Blackwand hasn't been lying around @> > 200 millenia or so unsouled - if so, it's odd the gods would allow a @> > powerful weapon against the Jenoine to not-rust unburnished, not to shine @> > in use. However, Pathfinder is bonded to Aliera though she didn't kill @> > anyone (one hopes) to achieve the effect; note that Pathfinder doesn't @> > have an apparent gender (_Issola_, Chapter 11) - maybe some GWs aren't @> > human alloys. @> @> I noticed this and it is why I think the soul in Pathfinder is Drien. Why are we assuming that the souls in GWs stick around forever? It wouldn't surprise me if they departed and were replaced periodically. From feaelin at kemenel.org Fri Jul 11 15:00:21 2003 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Iain E. Davis) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:00:21 -0500 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002501c347f7$d32e7fc0$6501a8c0@Khaavren> > Why are we assuming that the souls in GWs stick around forever? It > wouldn't surprise me if they departed and were replaced periodically. Why are we assuming that all GWs have souls (in this sense)? We only have one data point to support the idea. The other great weapons may simply be sentient in the same fashion that the other Morganti Weapons are, but to a greater degree. I would expect each great weapon to be unique both in abilities, origins, and history. From warlord at dragon.com Fri Jul 11 15:09:51 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:09:51 -0400 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: <002501c347f7$d32e7fc0$6501a8c0@Khaavren> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Iain E. Davis [mailto:feaelin at kemenel.org] > > Why are we assuming that all GWs have souls (in this sense)? We only have > one data point to support the idea. It is a rule of the list that one must generalize >from an example of one. If it isn't in the FAQ, then it ought to be. W "Don't crush that dwarf, hand me the pliers." -- Firesign Theater From feaelin at kemenel.org Fri Jul 11 17:42:30 2003 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Iain E. Davis) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 19:42:30 -0500 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000701c3480e$7a5e5390$6501a8c0@Khaavren> > From: Warlord [mailto:warlord at dragon.com] > It is a rule of the list that one must generalize > from an example of one. If it isn't in the FAQ, > then it ought to be. Oh...the fun we could have. Hm. That we do have. :) From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Jul 11 18:12:22 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 21:12:22 -0400 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ Message-ID: <0B5CBC8D.2DA65FF3.00048EA6@aol.com> Mark A Mandel writes: > On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > ># Why do you think that Morrolan PUT the soul in the sword? ># The Great weapons were created long ago, with only ># Godslayer having been delayed by the gods themselves. > > Do we have textev for that? _Dragon_, page 112 (paperback; for other editions its one third of the way through chapter 7). Whether this supports or refutes the above claim I can't say. --KG From daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net Sat Jul 12 00:16:40 2003 From: daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net (Katt Jean) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 00:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Great Weapon Discussion (med-long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030712071640.89864.qmail@web41812.mail.yahoo.com> --- Philip Hart wrote: > > It seems to me simplest to imagine that Blackwand > hasn't been lying around > 200 millenia or so unsouled - if so, it's odd the > gods would allow a > powerful weapon against the Jenoine to not-rust > unburnished, not to shine > in use. However, Pathfinder is bonded to Aliera > though she didn't kill > anyone (one hopes) to achieve the effect; note that > Pathfinder doesn't > have an apparent gender (_Issola_, Chapter 11) - > maybe some GWs aren't > human alloys. First time poster here, and I haven't read the list rules or the FAQ yet, so I hope I ain't breakin' any rules with this but... Think of the 'genesis' of the two GWs that we KNOW about: Pathfinder was 'encased' in a Morganti weapon Blanket until it was released (end of Dragon), and Lady Teldra wasn't even a real weapon until Vlad 'made' her. Additionally, with the 'predesitined' feel that GodSlayer's creation had (thru most of the Vlad books), I would assume that ALL of the GWs are 'keyed' to one individual. We never hear of anyone possessing a GW before their current owners. That being the case, I think it's very likely that the premonition of Morrolan finding Blackwand (Dragon) is very much like the MULTITUDE of forshadowings that Vlad got for GodSlayer. In other words: One GW per Main Character. Said GreatWeapon is keyed ONLY to said Character it is 'made' for. Each Character must undergo some type of 'challenge' to gain said GreatWeapon (although Aliera's challenge was a bit weak, it is made pretty clear that she spends a LOT of time 'getting to know' PathFinder). Besides, "they" (whoever "they" are) always said there were 17 GWs. Does that mean Vlad owns the 18th or that there weren't always 17 GWs, but that EVENTUALLY there would BE 17 of them? Glad I joined this group. Lots of people with as much 'no lifeness' as myself *smirk* D. Spayde "Swing a lot, don't get hit." From akodobob at sbcglobal.net Sat Jul 12 08:45:27 2003 From: akodobob at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 08:45:27 -0700 Subject: Great Weapon Discussion (med-long) References: <20030712071640.89864.qmail@web41812.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000c01c3488c$a16e7d60$6401a8c0@DELL1> @> I'm away from Book right now, but I think I remember someone making a @> comment to Vlad about waiting until Godslayer "wakes up" which seems to @> imply that this sort of procedure is not unknown to them. Maybe the first @> soul taken by the owner of a great weapon doesn't get destroyed but instead @> lingers? I guess we'll have to wait on that. From usagigoya at hotmail.com Sat Jul 12 08:45:24 2003 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 15:45:24 +0000 Subject: Sethra Lavode (Viscount #3) Message-ID: Don't know if this info has made it onto the list yet... The possible release date for The Viscount of Adrilanka, part 3: Sethra Lavode is April 2004 according to information posted on St. Martins Winter 2004 rights and Permissions web-site Don't know if this info has made it onto the list yet... The possible release date for The Viscount of Adrilanka, part 3: Sethra Lavode is April 2004 according to information posted on St. Martins rights and Permissions web-site Steven Brust is is listed close to the top of the list... _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From Gaertk at aol.com Sat Jul 12 17:11:50 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 20:11:50 -0400 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ Message-ID: <53BE8115.73393DDB.00048EA6@aol.com> "Steve Hubbell" writes: > Philip Hart - Wed, 09 Jul 2003 18:18:22 -0700 (PDT) ?said: > >> Miska names Morrolan in the language of the Silatan - who >> are they to Morrolan? ?And why does Morrolan not stick >> with a name in a language he speaks - maybe Paarfi >> simplifying? ?Note that later (pg 82) Teldra calls them >> the Silites. I'm guessing that Silites speak Silatan. Do any of the resisdent linguists want to comment on proper noun endings? What bugs me is how Teldra [p. 76] knew his name was Morrolan in the first place. Miska addresses him as "Dark Star" and the topic of languages doesn't come up until later. > Ok, my question is, in Taltos when Aliera first meets > Morrolan, she recognizes the name as being related to > Morrolan's fathers name... How does she do this if his name > is taken from a foreign language? Probably because his father's name was Rollondar. Even *I* can tell they're similar without knowing a single other word of that language. > (btw, whatever happened to the honorable profession of > proof-reader? obviously, Tor no longer seems to use them, > even the mmpb version of Dragon is full of typos...) TPotD and _Issola_ seemed fairly well proofread (not perfect, but still pretty good for a first edition). True, _Dragon_ had some amusing typos (mainly capitalisation errors) that made it to paperback (my favorite was Vlad's reference to the "Jhereg" on his shoulder). --KG From Gaertk at aol.com Sat Jul 12 17:26:55 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 20:26:55 -0400 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ Message-ID: <5D7BCCBF.46FBA474.00048EA6@aol.com> Philip Hart writes: > It seems to me that I'm rereading Book One of The Viscount > of Adrilankha, aka TPotD. ?So what happens after chapter > 17, when Book Two is announced? You're rereading *volume* one. We'll call that a typo on the fancy title page. > On page 31, "SB" complains about Paarfi referring to a > "two-story stone bungalow", which my dictionary calls "a > small house or cottage, usually with one or one and a half > stories". ?Whatever that means. So does this reflect more > on "SB"? 1.5 < 2, though I'm not too sure what a half floor looks like. Could this be one of those houses in three sections, one above another, with the third halfway between? > In Morrolan's dream (pg 44), he sees a fish with jewels for > eyes (green and red) - are these the e'Drien colors? That was my thought too when I read it. I haven't gotten around to verifying it yet (I'm not sure we've even seen the e'Drien colors). > Chapters 2 and 5-7 - Arra starts referring to M. as > "milord" in Chapter 5 (though not "Lord Morrolan"). ?Why is > this? ?Why does Lady Teldra do the same? ?Arra certainly > isn't part of the Empire, and T hardly more so. "Milord" and "milady" are generic polite terms for addressing the nobility. Used quite a lot in that sort of society (though maybe not in the East). Just be glad Brust didn't actually *name* someone "Milord". --KG From Gaertk at aol.com Sat Jul 12 17:54:30 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 20:54:30 -0400 Subject: Amazon Buying Frenzy (LoCB) Message-ID: <743EA215.536D4ADB.00048EA6@aol.com> Those of you who use Amazon know that when you order stuff, there's a thing called Share the Love where you tell others about your purchase, and if they order any of the same books within a week, then they get a discount and you get a credit. And I'm guessing that several folks here will be ordering _Lord of Castle Black_ around the end of this month, so this would be a good opportunity to cash in on this. A couple months ago I gave everyone here permission to use my email address < gaertk at aol.com > for this, but so far no one has. Iain Davis gave permission for use of his email too (which I did once), but that's all the response I've gotten so far. Anyone else want to join in? --KG From kisc at insaneninjahero.com Sat Jul 12 19:58:41 2003 From: kisc at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 20:58:41 -0600 Subject: Amazon Buying Frenzy (LoCB) In-Reply-To: <743EA215.536D4ADB.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: I double-dog dare you to just send that notification to the list... Kisc I wouldn't ever do it. I'm just saying. > -----Original Message----- > From: Gaertk at aol.com [mailto:Gaertk at aol.com] > Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2003 6:55 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Amazon Buying Frenzy (LoCB) > > > Those of you who use Amazon know that when you order stuff, > there's a thing called Share the Love where you tell others > about your purchase, and if they order any of the same books > within a week, then they get a discount and you get a credit. > > And I'm guessing that several folks here will be ordering > _Lord of Castle Black_ around the end of this month, so this > would be a good opportunity to cash in on this. > > A couple months ago I gave everyone here permission to use > my email address < gaertk at aol.com > for this, but so far no > one has. Iain Davis gave permission for use of his email too > (which I did once), but that's all the response I've gotten > so far. > > Anyone else want to join in? > > > --KG > > From davids at kithrup.com Sat Jul 12 23:27:34 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 23:27:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: <53BE8115.73393DDB.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >"Steve Hubbell" writes: > >> Philip Hart - Wed, 09 Jul 2003 18:18:22 -0700 (PDT) ?said: >> >>> Miska names Morrolan in the language of the Silatan - who >>> are they to Morrolan? ?And why does Morrolan not stick >>> with a name in a language he speaks - maybe Paarfi >>> simplifying? ?Note that later (pg 82) Teldra calls them >>> the Silites. > >I'm guessing that Silites speak Silatan. *I'm* more bothered by the fact that in /Issola/, Teldra states that "Morrolan" is from the ancient language of the Dragons. Which might be the same as Silatan, but really now. > >What bugs me is how Teldra [p. 76] knew his name was Morrolan in the >first place. Miska addresses him as "Dark Star" and the topic of >languages doesn't come up until later. > Miska would very well have told Teldra all about Morrolan's different nomenclatures. Especially since he's the one that gave him the name in the first place. Also, remember that Issolas are good with languages. She probably knows stuff. But when in doubt, blame Paarfi. From davids at kithrup.com Sat Jul 12 23:30:54 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 23:30:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: <5D7BCCBF.46FBA474.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >Philip Hart writes: > >> On page 31, "SB" complains about Paarfi referring to a >> "two-story stone bungalow", which my dictionary calls "a >> small house or cottage, usually with one or one and a half >> stories". ?Whatever that means. So does this reflect more >> on "SB"? > >1.5 < 2, though I'm not too sure what a half floor looks >like. Could this be one of those houses in three sections, >one above another, with the third halfway between? My guess is that the ".5" refers to an attic that is a living space, rather than just a dusty area between the ceiling and the roof. Although I have no idea how to go about researching that. >> In Morrolan's dream (pg 44), he sees a fish with jewels for >> eyes (green and red) - are these the e'Drien colors? > >That was my thought too when I read it. I haven't gotten >around to verifying it yet (I'm not sure we've even seen >the e'Drien colors). > >> Chapters 2 and 5-7 - Arra starts referring to M. as >> "milord" in Chapter 5 (though not "Lord Morrolan"). ?Why is >> this? ?Why does Lady Teldra do the same? ?Arra certainly >> isn't part of the Empire, and T hardly more so. > >"Milord" and "milady" are generic polite terms for addressing >the nobility. Used quite a lot in that sort of society >(though maybe not in the East). Just be glad Brust didn't >actually *name* someone "Milord". > > >--KG > From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Jul 13 00:47:12 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 00:47:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: <53BE8115.73393DDB.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <53BE8115.73393DDB.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: Ok, my complaint for the day is about distances and rates of travel. The default measure of length in _TPotD_ seems to be the league (aka around three miles, as is in fact mentioned in the text.) Now, Dzur Mountain is (according to Kytraan [as an aside, I'm trying to learn the Dutch "aa" sound - somewhere between gargling and barfing]) about 70 leagues. But it takes him and Piro over two weeks (10 days) to get there, or less than 20 miles/day on horseback, which seems a bit lame - I think I could walk 30 miles/day on levelish ground. Also the expedition to Deathgate Falls starts off at 5 leagues/day until Zerika decides 10 l/d is more in order. Ok, so then Pel has come 1500 miles from Kana to Khaavren (Scope plus finger down the throat) in six days - this comes to 250 miles/day, which seems like quite a lot, even by post. I cite for comparison d'Artagnan's mad dash from Saint-Valery to Paris in Chapter XXI of The Three Musketeers: he makes more than 60 "lieues" (I think leagues) in 12 hours by post and we're supposed to be impressed. And then finally the Teckla wire conveys news from Mt. Bliaard - some 500 leagues distant - to Pel in three days - this seems out of control fast... From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Jul 13 02:11:18 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 02:11:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amazon Buying Frenzy (LoCB) In-Reply-To: <743EA215.536D4ADB.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <743EA215.536D4ADB.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: Is there some downside to doing this, beyond the privacy concern of letting Amazon know who you know? (Anybody know Ashcroft's email so I'll be on the safe side? No joke - a friend of mine put "Saddam" into one of these sorts of things not long ago and the state police got involved.) Anyway, I'll order my copy on Monday evening and refer as many listers as are interested. On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > Those of you who use Amazon know that when you order stuff, > there's a thing called Share the Love where you tell others > about your purchase, and if they order any of the same books > within a week, then they get a discount and you get a credit. > > And I'm guessing that several folks here will be ordering > _Lord of Castle Black_ around the end of this month, so this > would be a good opportunity to cash in on this. > > A couple months ago I gave everyone here permission to use > my email address < gaertk at aol.com > for this, but so far no > one has. Iain Davis gave permission for use of his email too > (which I did once), but that's all the response I've gotten > so far. > > Anyone else want to join in? > > > --KG > > From feaelin at kemenel.org Sun Jul 13 07:41:23 2003 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Iain E. Davis) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 09:41:23 -0500 Subject: Amazon Buying Frenzy (LoCB) In-Reply-To: <743EA215.536D4ADB.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <001801c3494c$d57829b0$6501a8c0@Khaavren> > From: Gaertk at aol.com [mailto:Gaertk at aol.com] > Those of you who use Amazon know that when you order stuff, > there's a thing called Share the Love where you tell others > about your purchase, and if they order any of the same books > within a week, then they get a discount and you get a credit. > > And I'm guessing that several folks here will be ordering > _Lord of Castle Black_ around the end of this month, so this > would be a good opportunity to cash in on this. > > A couple months ago I gave everyone here permission to use > my email address < gaertk at aol.com > for this, but so far no > one has. Iain Davis gave permission for use of his email too > (which I did once), but that's all the response I've gotten so far. Hmm. Did I ever add you? From mtiller at ntlworld.com Sun Jul 13 09:42:37 2003 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 17:42:37 +0100 Subject: Amazon Buying Frenzy (LoCB) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000701c3495d$c4beca50$0101a8c0@markspc> -----Original Message----- From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU] Sent: 13 July 2003 10:11 To: Gaertk at aol.com Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Amazon Buying Frenzy (LoCB) >Anyway, I'll order my copy on Monday evening and refer as many listers as are interested. Count me in Mark From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Sun Jul 13 11:14:06 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 11:14:06 -0700 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: References: <53BE8115.73393DDB.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 00:47:12 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >Ok, my complaint for the day is about distances and rates of travel. >The default measure of length in _TPotD_ seems to be the league (aka >around three miles, as is in fact mentioned in the text.) Now, Dzur >Mountain is (according to Kytraan [as an aside, I'm trying to learn the >Dutch "aa" sound - somewhere between gargling and barfing]) about 70 >leagues. But it takes him and Piro over two weeks (10 days) to get >there, or less than 20 miles/day on horseback, which seems a bit lame - >I think I could walk 30 miles/day on levelish ground. Also the >expedition to Deathgate Falls starts off at 5 leagues/day until Zerika >decides 10 l/d is more in order. > 10-15 miles a day is reasonable for this sort of travel. One has to take into account setting up camp, breaking down camp, stopping to eat, etc. They're not in a rush. As opposed to Pel, who is indeed in a rush, and thus is traveling at speed. Wasn't some comment made in the book about how they were taking their time? >Ok, so then Pel has come 1500 miles from Kana to Khaavren (Scope plus >finger down the throat) in six days - this comes to 250 miles/day, which >seems like quite a lot, even by post. I cite for comparison d'Artagnan's >mad dash from Saint-Valery to Paris in Chapter XXI of The Three >Musketeers: he makes more than 60 "lieues" (I think leagues) in 12 hours >by post and we're supposed to be impressed. And then finally the Teckla >wire conveys news from Mt. Bliaard - some 500 leagues distant - to Pel in >three days - this seems out of control fast... Nothing travels faster than word of mouth. :-) -- lazarus "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American Public." -- Theodore Roosevelt From feaelin at kemenel.org Sun Jul 13 12:09:31 2003 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Iain E. Davis) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 14:09:31 -0500 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000a01c34972$4aef6c10$6501a8c0@Khaavren> > From: lazarus [mailto:lazarus33pjf at cox.net] > 10-15 miles a day is reasonable for this sort of travel. One > has to take into account setting up camp, breaking down camp, > stopping to eat, etc. They're not in a rush. As opposed to > Pel, who is indeed in a rush, and thus is traveling at speed. > Wasn't some comment made in the book about how they were > taking their time? I always used 20 miles a day for a "unhurried pace, reasonable amounts of time for camping, eating, breaking camp, horse grazing, etc.". Really, though, there are many different factors that affect travel pace. > >Ok, so then Pel has come 1500 miles from Kana to Khaavren > (Scope plus > >finger down the throat) in six days - this comes to 250 miles/day, > >which seems like quite a lot, even by post. I cite for comparison Hmm. If you're willing to gallop the horse to death or near-death (switching horses whenever possible), how many miles can a horse(s) cover in a day? Anyone? Also, it'd be prudent to note that Paarfi discusses the fact that there were "many different measurement systems" which he tries to reflect by mixing miles, leagues, feet, etc. It is distinctly possible that a "league" may not be a consistent measurement of distance. :) It is also possible that Paarfi compresses or extends the travel time to..suit his convenience. :) Iain From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Jul 13 12:14:57 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 12:14:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: two comments on friendship in _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: <53BE8115.73393DDB.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <53BE8115.73393DDB.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On pg 95 of the hardcover edition, as Zivra and Piro leave Lewchin and Shant, he admits to envying their relationship and says, "at least one good thing ... has come from the Disaster." She says, "You think so?" in what I now take as slight surprise, and goes on to say she'll miss them, and Piro as well. On first reading, I thought this exchange was merely sociological, perhaps in part Paarfi's way of explaining Zerika's scandalous behavior in Vlad's time (we see more of this on pg 289). Now it seems to me that this is almost a pass - she would have been interested in an interHouse arrangement with Piro, had she known his approval of such relationships - but of course it whooshes past him. The conclusion of the conversation now strikes me as more of this - she's nearly asking (ok, very elliptically) for a kiss goodbye but he's oblivious. Sometimes rereading means "rereading into", though. Rereading Chapter 21 I was struck by the prevalence of the word "friend" in the conversation between Pel and Aerich - I count some 22 occurrences in perhaps three pages of dialogue (though I'm hardly an arithmatist [to quote yet another typo in the hardcover]) - perhaps this is Paarfi's way of implying more tension between the noble and the devious man. From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Sun Jul 13 12:38:03 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 12:38:03 -0700 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: <000a01c34972$4aef6c10$6501a8c0@Khaavren> References: <000a01c34972$4aef6c10$6501a8c0@Khaavren> Message-ID: <87d3hvoho17qtm54j9tiqr1dv4f1suudlm@4ax.com> On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 14:09:31 -0500, you wrote: >> From: lazarus [mailto:lazarus33pjf at cox.net] >> 10-15 miles a day is reasonable for this sort of travel. One >> has to take into account setting up camp, breaking down camp, >> stopping to eat, etc. They're not in a rush. As opposed to >> Pel, who is indeed in a rush, and thus is traveling at speed. >> Wasn't some comment made in the book about how they were >> taking their time? > >I always used 20 miles a day for a "unhurried pace, reasonable amounts of >time for camping, eating, breaking camp, horse grazing, etc.". Really, >though, there are many different factors that affect travel pace. > >> >Ok, so then Pel has come 1500 miles from Kana to Khaavren >> (Scope plus >> >finger down the throat) in six days - this comes to 250 miles/day, >> >which seems like quite a lot, even by post. I cite for comparison > >Hmm. If you're willing to gallop the horse to death or near-death >(switching horses whenever possible), how many miles can a horse(s) cover in >a day? Anyone? > > >Also, it'd be prudent to note that Paarfi discusses the fact that there were >"many different measurement systems" which he tries to reflect by mixing >miles, leagues, feet, etc. It is distinctly possible that a "league" may >not be a consistent measurement of distance. :) > >It is also possible that Paarfi compresses or extends the travel time >to..suit his convenience. :) > Something I forgot. The day on Dragaera is longer than ours, isn't it? That throws everything off again. Plus, as you said, all these different systems could easily cause issues. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Jul 13 12:59:27 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 12:59:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: <87d3hvoho17qtm54j9tiqr1dv4f1suudlm@4ax.com> References: <000a01c34972$4aef6c10$6501a8c0@Khaavren> <87d3hvoho17qtm54j9tiqr1dv4f1suudlm@4ax.com> Message-ID: > > Something I forgot. The day on Dragaera is longer than ours, isn't > it? That throws everything off again. It's 29 hours, according to some nice FAQ somewhere. I don't think that really matters, unless horses have been engineered - you have to take gravity, whether Dragaerans are lighter than standard humans, etc etc into account - as I rather doubt the extra five hours would be much help - at least I imagine not being much more productive with the extra time if I had to use it up each day. Actually I think that Vlad would have complained about being tired all the time living on such a schedule... From mam at theworld.com Sun Jul 13 13:55:54 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 16:55:54 -0400 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Jul 2003, Philip Hart wrote: #It's 29 hours, according to some nice FAQ somewhere. It's 30 hours, well attested. See my writeup at http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/time.html#clock It begins: >>> The Dragaeran minute has 60 seconds, and the hour 60 minutes [FHYA307]. Beyond that, nothing's the same as ours. The day has 30 hours [TPG212], reckoned from midnight and noon: e.g., "the ninth hour" [TPG90], "the tenth hour of the morning" [FHYA516], "the eleventh hour past noon" [TPG93,Jrg233], and sometimes also in our style, as "thirteen o'clock" [Orc135] or (in writing) "13:00" [FHYA71-73]. The day begins at midnight [FHYA161]. <<< # I don't think that #really matters, unless horses have been engineered - you have to take #gravity, whether Dragaerans are lighter than standard humans, etc etc into #account - as I rather doubt the extra five hours would be much help - at #least I imagine not being much more productive with the extra time if I #had to use it up each day. Actually I think that Vlad would have #complained about being tired all the time living on such a schedule... After living on Dragaera for over 200,000 years, I rather imagine that the humans (Easterners) have adapted well to the 30-hour day. Note that four meals a day seems standard [TPG205,433; FHYA somewhere]. Just don't ask how Terran languages remain recognizeable over such a span, and the Easterners haven't gotten past medieval tech. Just... don't. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Jul 13 14:29:26 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 14:29:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Jul 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Sun, 13 Jul 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > #It's 29 hours, according to some nice FAQ somewhere. > > It's 30 hours, well attested. See my writeup at > http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/time.html#clock For the record, I was misquoting http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/ref/world.html For the record, I think I could come up with reasonable arguments against your position - basically I'd say that you've simply asserted a D-minute equals an E-minute and trusted a variety of Brusts (or rather, trusted a particular set of writings of the Brusts over others). Maybe _he_'s the one with the thing about 17 - and has systematically (more or less) mistranslated the Vladiad and the Paariad to suit, so 17^2 days = 1 D-year = 1 E-year results in the 30 hours figure. > After living on Dragaera for over 200,000 years, I rather imagine that > the humans (Easterners) have adapted well to the 30-hour day. Fair enough - I've fallen into the error of thinking humans aren't subject to selection pressure any more. However, on the other hand I would imagine that the adaptations might not result in 30-hour circadian clocks - there could be societal adaptations, such as several sleep periods per day, or a willingness to not be up at dawn every day or to say farm by torchlight - which might be coupled with genetic changes... Incidentally, how bright is it beneath the enclouding? Bright enough to farm, obviously, and for Eastern-adapted eyes to work fine - this seems odd. > Just don't ask how Terran languages remain recognizeable over such a > span, and the Easterners haven't gotten past medieval tech. Just... > don't. Damn - too late - many times too late... The former I've ascribed to "SB" taking some liberty in translation, the latter to Dragaeran depredations, the gods, and most of all the Cycle. From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Sun Jul 13 14:28:18 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 14:28:18 -0700 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 14:29:26 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: > > >On Sun, 13 Jul 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > >> On Sun, 13 Jul 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >> >> #It's 29 hours, according to some nice FAQ somewhere. >> >> It's 30 hours, well attested. See my writeup at >> http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/time.html#clock > > >For the record, I was misquoting >http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/ref/world.html > > >For the record, I think I could come up with reasonable arguments against >your position - basically I'd say that you've simply asserted a D-minute >equals an E-minute and trusted a variety of Brusts (or rather, trusted a >particular set of writings of the Brusts over others). Maybe _he_'s the >one with the thing about 17 - and has systematically (more or less) >mistranslated the Vladiad and the Paariad to suit, so 17^2 days = 1 D-year >= 1 E-year results in the 30 hours figure. > > > >> After living on Dragaera for over 200,000 years, I rather imagine that >> the humans (Easterners) have adapted well to the 30-hour day. > >Fair enough - I've fallen into the error of thinking humans aren't subject >to selection pressure any more. However, on the other hand I would >imagine that the adaptations might not result in 30-hour circadian clocks >- there could be societal adaptations, such as several sleep periods per >day, or a willingness to not be up at dawn every day or to say farm by >torchlight - which might be coupled with genetic changes... > >Incidentally, how bright is it beneath the enclouding? Bright enough to >farm, obviously, and for Eastern-adapted eyes to work fine - this seems >odd. > I always thought of the Enclouding as being a really heavy overcast, nothing more. > > >> Just don't ask how Terran languages remain recognizeable over such a >> span, and the Easterners haven't gotten past medieval tech. Just... >> don't. > >Damn - too late - many times too late... The former I've ascribed to "SB" >taking some liberty in translation, the latter to Dragaeran depredations, >the gods, and most of all the Cycle. Which works perfectly, actually. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From kisc at insaneninjahero.com Sun Jul 13 17:01:51 2003 From: kisc at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 18:01:51 -0600 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > From: Philip Hart > Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2003 3:29 PM > > On Sun, 13 Jul 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > > > On Sun, 13 Jul 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > #It's 29 hours, according to some nice FAQ somewhere. > > > > It's 30 hours, well attested. See my writeup at > > http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/time.html#clock > > > For the record, I was misquoting > http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/ref/world.html > > > For the record, I think I could come up with reasonable arguments against > your position - basically I'd say that you've simply asserted a D-minute > equals an E-minute and trusted a variety of Brusts (or rather, trusted a > particular set of writings of the Brusts over others). Maybe _he_'s the > one with the thing about 17 - and has systematically (more or less) > mistranslated the Vladiad and the Paariad to suit, so 17^2 days = 1 D-year > = 1 E-year results in the 30 hours figure. > > > > > After living on Dragaera for over 200,000 years, I rather imagine that > > the humans (Easterners) have adapted well to the 30-hour day. > > Fair enough - I've fallen into the error of thinking humans aren't subject > to selection pressure any more. However, on the other hand I would > imagine that the adaptations might not result in 30-hour circadian clocks > - there could be societal adaptations, such as several sleep periods per > day, or a willingness to not be up at dawn every day or to say farm by > torchlight - which might be coupled with genetic changes... Humans on Sol III continue to be subject to natural selection. You are correct in a way... "selection pressure" is, if nothing else, excessively different than it was x-thousand (or million, depending if you're religious or not) years ago. Selections continues to take place however, and I think many people will be surprised when some bored evolutionist writes a paper proving that point. Genetic changes is a non-term, really - genetic drift seems more accurate. Everyone is unique; trends occur within particular populations, certainly. I don't think any genetic change would be required to solve a 30 hour day regardless. I suspect it would be much more in the nature of personal adaptation, otherwise known as "getting used to it". A lot of research has been done on the topic of sleep and sleeplessness, but I think more telling research has been done by the US Navy SEALs. They have, among other things, something that I've heard referred to as "Hell Week", where they are required to stay awake for 7 days, or only get 3 hours of sleep per day - depending on who you ask - while maintaining an extrememly agressive schedule of PT. Then, at the end of Black Hawk Down (I hate to use a movie as a reference, even one as apparently accurate as that, but I don't know how to research this particular question), the SEAL who is almost a main character, he acts like the big brother to one of the sergeants in charge of a Ranger chalk, after being up for who the hell knows how long, grabs some food and head back out to help look for those who died. He tells the Ranger he was helping out to stay and get some rest, that he, the SEAL, will be able to do better on his own. Oh hell, now I can't remember if that guy was a Delta or a SEAL. Probably a Delta, because it seems like that was purely a land war. Grrrr. Blah, the point is valid regardless. Training makes you tougher, able to stand up to lack of sleep. This is an extreme example of "getting used to it". Why wouldn't 200,000 years of not knowing there was any other way to be give you the ability to live a 30 hour day without difficulty? > > Incidentally, how bright is it beneath the enclouding? Bright enough to > farm, obviously, and for Eastern-adapted eyes to work fine - this seems > odd. > In spite of my statements regarding how unneccesary genetic drift/change/whatever is, note that the Jenoine are known to have done something to Easterners as well, though what was never specified. Maybe Vlad's complaints about the Furnace being too bright are more than just him not being used to it. I don't think that's likely either, just wanted to throw it out there. It takes a lot of cloud to make it too dark to see, you know. I for one wouldn't be terribly upset to live in a world where it is perpetually grey and cloudy, and the light dimmer. I have very light-sensitive eyes - just to the point that I wear shades constantly - and would love it if this blasted heat/light we're experiencing in Utah this month would just never happen again. > > > > Just don't ask how Terran languages remain recognizeable over such a > > span, and the Easterners haven't gotten past medieval tech. Just... > > don't. > > Damn - too late - many times too late... The former I've ascribed to "SB" > taking some liberty in translation, the latter to Dragaeran depredations, > the gods, and most of all the Cycle. > Maybe the presence of the Great Sea, or something to do with the gods (or the Lords of Judgement particularly), means that technology doesn't work like it ought. Perhaps Verra (or someone else) simply kills whatever Easterner comes up with "the first step into the future" before it get published widely. Maybe Dragaera is stuck in some kind of loop where technology can't progress because of something to do with the existence of the Jenoine, or there is some quest that has to be fulfilled so that Dragaera can re-enter the timestream from the little bubble the Jenoine stuck it in... Personally, I'm most fond of the theories that involve Dragaera being stuck out of time or something. The Cycle is maybe a BAD thing, see, and until someone breaks it, this particular creation is stuck, unable to truly progress. Maybe that is what Vlad and Lady Teldra are going to do. Among other things. Kisc From mam at theworld.com Sun Jul 13 18:03:17 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 21:03:17 -0400 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Jul 2003, Philip Hart wrote: #On Sun, 13 Jul 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: # #> On Sun, 13 Jul 2003, Philip Hart wrote: #> #> #It's 29 hours, according to some nice FAQ somewhere. #> #> It's 30 hours, well attested. See my writeup at #> http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/time.html#clock # # #For the record, I was misquoting #http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/ref/world.html # # #For the record, I think I could come up with reasonable arguments against #your position - basically I'd say that you've simply asserted a D-minute #equals an E-minute and trusted a variety of Brusts (or rather, trusted a #particular set of writings of the Brusts over others). Maybe _he_'s the #one with the thing about 17 - and has systematically (more or less) #mistranslated the Vladiad and the Paariad to suit, so 17^2 days = 1 D-year #= 1 E-year results in the 30 hours figure. Possible. When I first put that up, Steve wrote to me something to the effect of "congratulations on unwinding the tricks I've been playing with time". I can't find the email now. #> After living on Dragaera for over 200,000 years, I rather imagine that #> the humans (Easterners) have adapted well to the 30-hour day. # #Fair enough - I've fallen into the error of thinking humans aren't subject #to selection pressure any more. However, on the other hand I would #imagine that the adaptations might not result in 30-hour circadian clocks #- there could be societal adaptations, such as several sleep periods per #day, or a willingness to not be up at dawn every day or to say farm by #torchlight - which might be coupled with genetic changes... Studies in our world have shown that people adapt better to a longer cycle, like 28 hours, than to a shorter one, like 20. #Incidentally, how bright is it beneath the enclouding? Bright enough to #farm, obviously, and for Eastern-adapted eyes to work fine - this seems #odd. How long does it take for our eyes to adapt from bright sun to a medium-lit room? We can handle a tremendous range of variation in brightness. #> Just don't ask how Terran languages remain recognizeable over such a #> span, and the Easterners haven't gotten past medieval tech. Just... #> don't. # #Damn - too late - many times too late... The former I've ascribed to "SB" #taking some liberty in translation, the latter to Dragaeran depredations, #the gods, and most of all the Cycle. Yeah... -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mam at theworld.com Sun Jul 13 18:08:25 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 21:08:25 -0400 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Jul 2003, Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert wrote: #In spite of my statements regarding how unneccesary genetic #drift/change/whatever is, note that the Jenoine are known to have done #something to Easterners as well, though what was never specified. Maybe #Vlad's complaints about the Furnace being too bright are more than just him #not being used to it. No, that wouldn't make sense. Vlad is an *Easterner*: his ancestors for >200 millennia, down to (probably) Noish-pa, have lived east of the Mountains, with no Overcast or Enclouding or Hand of Faerie. Noish-pa has shown him the Furnace in his own (N's) memories. Whatever the J. did to the Easterners genetically, it can't have made them intolerant of sunlight. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From feaelin at kemenel.org Sun Jul 13 22:23:46 2003 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Iain E. Davis) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 00:23:46 -0500 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000c01c349c8$1e9df0e0$6501a8c0@Khaavren> > From: Mark A Mandel [mailto:mam at theworld.com] > No, that wouldn't make sense. Vlad is an *Easterner*: his > ancestors for > >200 millennia, down to (probably) Noish-pa, have lived east of the > Mountains, with no Overcast or Enclouding or Hand of Faerie. Noish-pa > has shown him the Furnace in his own (N's) memories. Whatever > the J. did > to the Easterners genetically, it can't have made them intolerant of > sunlight. Living in a less bright area for sufficient years is enough to make bright light uncomfortable. I imagine Vlad could "re-adapt" and get used to bright sunlight, but initially, it would be uncomfortable. Iain From feaelin at kemenel.org Mon Jul 14 06:55:21 2003 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Iain E. Davis) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 08:55:21 -0500 Subject: Amazon Buying Frenzy (LoCB) In-Reply-To: <000701c3495d$c4beca50$0101a8c0@markspc> Message-ID: <000401c34a0f$9270d9a0$6501a8c0@Khaavren> > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Tiller [mailto:mtiller at ntlworld.com] > Count me in Does that mean I should use ^^^^^ that address to add you to the friends list? :) From usagigoya at hotmail.com Mon Jul 14 12:58:15 2003 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 19:58:15 +0000 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ Message-ID: Just a note to say I've been quoted for someone elses comments in this discussuion... >From: David Silberstein >To: Dragaera List >Subject: Re: started rereading _TPotD_ >Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 23:27:34 -0700 (PDT) > >On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > >"Steve Hubbell" writes: > > > >> Philip Hart - Wed, 09 Jul 2003 18:18:22 -0700 (PDT) ?said: > >> > >>> Miska names Morrolan in the language of the Silatan - who > >>> are they to Morrolan? ?And why does Morrolan not stick > >>> with a name in a language he speaks - maybe Paarfi > >>> simplifying? ?Note that later (pg 82) Teldra calls them > >>> the Silites. > > > >I'm guessing that Silites speak Silatan. > >*I'm* more bothered by the fact that in /Issola/, Teldra states that >"Morrolan" is from the ancient language of the Dragons. Which might >be the same as Silatan, but really now. > > > > >What bugs me is how Teldra [p. 76] knew his name was Morrolan in the > >first place. Miska addresses him as "Dark Star" and the topic of > >languages doesn't come up until later. > > > >Miska would very well have told Teldra all about Morrolan's different >nomenclatures. Especially since he's the one that gave him the name >in the first place. > >Also, remember that Issolas are good with languages. She probably >knows stuff. > >But when in doubt, blame Paarfi. > _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Mon Jul 14 13:47:48 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 16:47:48 -0400 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ -- Issola spoilers In-Reply-To: References: <3A0C0EF8-B3D6-11D7-8571-0003938F1608@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20030714204748.GB20342@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Fri, Jul 11, 2003 at 03:35:55PM -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > > #Why do you think that Morrolan PUT the soul in the sword? The Great > #weapons were created long ago, with only Godslayer having been delayed > #by the gods themselves. > > Do we have textev for that? (I'm not Kenneth, but I'll play him on the net for a minute. :-)) Yes and no. We have clear evidence that Pathfinder was *not* created by the current wielder, and no evidence that any other weapon was created by the current wielder. We *do* have clear evidence (Sethras comments about 'waking up' near the end of Issola) that Godslayer may have a personality that is essentially Teldras. We know from numerous references that Great Weapons have personalities. And we know that all Morganti weapons are 'semi-sentient' (I think that was the phrase used). We know from early Vlad books that a Great Weapon can temporarily hold the soul of it's wielder and later release it. But we don't know if the absorption of a soul is a necessary part of the creation of a Great Weapon. Nor do we even know if it's a necessary part of the creation of Godslayer. We should bear in mind that what we see in Issola is the *reassembly* of Godslayer >from Spellbreaker, a Morganti dagger, and Teldra. Of those three parts, it may well be that only Spellbreaker was part of the original Godslayer. >From text, I think that's all we really know. Which, by omission, means we don't know *who* disassembled Godslayer. But Sethra might, and IMHO Verra knows as well. From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Mon Jul 14 13:54:17 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 16:54:17 -0400 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: References: <53BE8115.73393DDB.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030714205417.GC20342@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Sun, Jul 13, 2003 at 12:47:12AM -0700, Philip Hart wrote: > Ok, my complaint for the day is about distances and rates of travel. > The default measure of length in _TPotD_ seems to be the league (aka > around three miles, as is in fact mentioned in the text.) Now, Dzur > Mountain is (according to Kytraan [as an aside, I'm trying to learn the > Dutch "aa" sound - somewhere between gargling and barfing]) about 70 > leagues. But it takes him and Piro over two weeks (10 days) to get > there, or less than 20 miles/day on horseback, which seems a bit lame - > I think I could walk 30 miles/day on levelish ground. Also the > expedition to Deathgate Falls starts off at 5 leagues/day until Zerika > decides 10 l/d is more in order. Neglecting Dragaerans and Easterners for the moment, let us note that the Roman Army under Julius Caesar was noted for astounding the opposition by regularly making 20 to 30 miles per day, travelling on good roads. In extreme circumstances they could make 40 miles per day, but couldn't do it for more than a day or two. That's for guys who trained for it day in and day out, with lots and lots of marching with lots and lots of big loads. Yes, 20 miles per day over trails, uphill and down, with pack animals, etc, makes a lot of sense to me. From mtiller at ntlworld.com Mon Jul 14 14:14:34 2003 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 22:14:34 +0100 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000b01c34a4c$f114d4b0$0101a8c0@markspc> -----Original Message----- From: Mark A Mandel [mailto:mam at theworld.com] Sent: 14 July 2003 02:03 To: Philip Hart Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: started rereading _TPotD_ >Studies in our world have shown that people adapt better to a longer cycle, like 28 hours, than to a shorter one, like >20. I seem to remember watching a show that showed long term (several months) study which deprived the test subjects of any external stimulus as to what the time was. The subjects gradually moved to a 27-28 hour cycle after about 2-3 months and stayed on that til the end of the trial. I think they were claiming that the Earth's day used to be longer.... But I'm not sure if that would be right. The Sun's gravity is I believe is slowing the earth's rotation (Same reason why we always ee 1 face of the moon). Mark. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Jul 14 14:49:27 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: <20030714205417.GC20342@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <53BE8115.73393DDB.00048EA6@aol.com> <20030714205417.GC20342@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jul 2003, Steve Simmons wrote: > On Sun, Jul 13, 2003 at 12:47:12AM -0700, Philip Hart wrote: > > leagues. But it takes him and Piro over two weeks (10 days) to get > > there, or less than 20 miles/day on horseback, which seems a bit lame - > > Neglecting Dragaerans and Easterners for the moment, let us note that > the Roman Army under Julius Caesar was noted for astounding the opposition > by regularly making 20 to 30 miles per day, travelling on good roads. > In extreme circumstances they could make 40 miles per day, but couldn't > do it for more than a day or two. That's for guys who trained for it day > in and day out, with lots and lots of marching with lots and lots of big > loads. > > Yes, 20 miles per day over trails, uphill and down, with pack animals, > etc, makes a lot of sense to me. Note that Caesar's legions were bearing arms (ok, short swords I suppose, but not light crystal-forged ones) and armor and shields, and on foot. Also they had to maintain coherent order during, and establish defensible positions at the end of, their marches. I contend that a couple of guys on horseback, eager for adventure, would make better time. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Jul 14 14:54:02 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 14:54:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: <000b01c34a4c$f114d4b0$0101a8c0@markspc> References: <000b01c34a4c$f114d4b0$0101a8c0@markspc> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jul 2003, Mark Tiller wrote: > I seem to remember watching a show that showed long term (several months) > study which deprived the test subjects of any external stimulus as to what > the time was. I believe the famous study was later demonstrated not to show what people thought, or to be procedurally flawed... I doubt the day has lengthened by a second over the last hundred millennia, during which we evolved, or that circadian rhythms are accurate at anything like that level... From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Jul 14 15:07:56 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:07:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: References: <53BE8115.73393DDB.00048EA6@aol.com> <20030714205417.GC20342@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: So the latest thing I don't understand about _TPotD_ is: what's Sethra's reasoning behind her decisions? If I understand the timing, she sent Sethra the Younger to pick up Zivra, then a few days later sent Kytraan to pick up Piro - why not send one expedition, except to have the advantage of a separation and a reunion scene? Could this be the heavy hand of Paarfi? Then Sethra sends Zerika et al. off to get the Orb - but if we believe Paarfi, the gods had at the time (whatever that means in this context) hardly decided whether or not to relinquish it. In fact, they were then supposedly calling up the Necromancer, who only appears several months later. Is there any reason why Sethra picks this moment - Piro's old enough? Tazendra has blown up her guest room again? - and why she doesn't coordinate with the Gods? As an aside, we get another typical Paarfian intro to Sennya's region - settled in the 8th Cycle. We ought to be able to track Dragaeran expansion - 100k years seems a long time to settle a continent... From mtiller at ntlworld.com Mon Jul 14 15:19:01 2003 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:19:01 +0100 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001401c34a55$ee9120f0$0101a8c0@markspc> -----Original Message----- From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU] Sent: 14 July 2003 22:54 To: Mark Tiller Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: RE: started rereading _TPotD_ >I believe the famous study was later demonstrated not to show what people thought, or to be procedurally flawed... Wouldn't surprise me at all. Mark. From davids at kithrup.com Mon Jul 14 15:27:47 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:27:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jul 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >So the latest thing I don't understand about _TPotD_ is: what's >Sethra's reasoning behind her decisions? If I understand the timing, >she sent Sethra the Younger to pick up Zivra, then a few days later >sent Kytraan to pick up Piro - why not send one expedition, except to >have the advantage of a separation and a reunion scene? Could this >be the heavy hand of Paarfi? I could be misremembering, but didn't Sethra state that Piro was specifically there at Zerika's request? In other words, Sethra didn't know, when she sent for Zerika, that Zerika would ask for Piro shortly after she arrived. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Jul 14 15:32:36 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:32:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jul 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > On Mon, 14 Jul 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > >So the latest thing I don't understand about _TPotD_ is: what's > >Sethra's reasoning behind her decisions? If I understand the timing, > >she sent Sethra the Younger to pick up Zivra, then a few days later > >sent Kytraan to pick up Piro - why not send one expedition, except to > >have the advantage of a separation and a reunion scene? Could this > >be the heavy hand of Paarfi? > > I could be misremembering, but didn't Sethra state that Piro was > specifically there at Zerika's request? In other words, Sethra didn't > know, when she sent for Zerika, that Zerika would ask for Piro shortly > after she arrived. That's what I was looking for rereading - but if I understand the Porker Poker chapter, Zivra is told she is to travel at the same time that Piro's parents receive word that he is to travel. From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Mon Jul 14 15:27:50 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:27:50 -0700 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: References: <53BE8115.73393DDB.00048EA6@aol.com> <20030714205417.GC20342@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:07:56 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >So the latest thing I don't understand about _TPotD_ is: what's Sethra's >reasoning behind her decisions? If I understand the timing, she sent >Sethra the Younger to pick up Zivra, then a few days later sent Kytraan to >pick up Piro - why not send one expedition, except to have the advantage >of a separation and a reunion scene? Could this be the heavy hand of >Paarfi? > >Then Sethra sends Zerika et al. off to get the Orb - but if we believe >Paarfi, the gods had at the time (whatever that means in this context) >hardly decided whether or not to relinquish it. In fact, they were >then supposedly calling up the Necromancer, who only appears several >months later. Is there any reason why Sethra picks this moment - Piro's >old enough? Tazendra has blown up her guest room again? - and why >she doesn't coordinate with the Gods? > > >As an aside, we get another typical Paarfian intro to Sennya's region - >settled in the 8th Cycle. We ought to be able to track Dragaeran >expansion - 100k years seems a long time to settle a continent... > It seems okay to me, for a couple of reasons. First, they have a much longer lifespan. While that may seem to indicate that they'll get a lot more done in one lifetime, note the surprise at how fast Vlad moves and accomplishes things. It's possible the Dragaerans slow down quite a bit, taking decade to our years, because they have so much time. So naturally, everything else would be slowed down as well. Let's not forget that the Cycle is involved, as well. We don't know how cultures would develop and grow and expand given the presence of the Cycle and magic. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Jul 14 15:45:20 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:45:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ Message-ID: <200307142245.h6EMj6I27390@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > So the latest thing I don't understand about _TPotD_ is: what's Sethra's > reasoning behind her decisions? If I understand the timing, she sent > Sethra the Younger to pick up Zivra, then a few days later sent Kytraan to > pick up Piro - why not send one expedition, except to have the advantage > of a separation and a reunion scene? Could this be the heavy hand of > Paarfi? > > I could be misremembering, but didn't Sethra state that Piro was > specifically there at Zerika's request? In other words, Sethra didn't > know, when she sent for Zerika, that Zerika would ask for Piro shortly > after she arrived. I believe this is correct. And, even if not, I can see Sethra not knowing what or whom she'd need until getting Zerika and talking to her. > Then Sethra sends Zerika et al. off to get the Orb - but if we believe > Paarfi, the gods had at the time (whatever that means in this context) > hardly decided whether or not to relinquish it. In fact, they were > then supposedly calling up the Necromancer, who only appears several > months later. Is there any reason why Sethra picks this moment - Piro's > old enough? Tazendra has blown up her guest room again? - and why > she doesn't coordinate with the Gods? I don't believe Sethra is in on the Gods plans. She probably didn't know that the Gods were debating whether to relinquish the Orb, and so would go about with her own plans. As to the rest, she probably chose a moment when Zerika could be found and was old enough to take on the responsabilities of leadership, not to mention heading into the Paths for a little chat with the Gods. > As an aside, we get another typical Paarfian intro to Sennya's region - > settled in the 8th Cycle. We ought to be able to track Dragaeran > expansion - 100k years seems a long time to settle a continent... Yes and no. From what we've read, it seems Dragaerans don't do things in a hurry. If that's the case, and they've also got Easterners, Serioli, and wild dzurs and dragons running around, I'm not too surprised it's taken awhile to civilize (heh) a continent as large as Europe. Peeking from over my desk, Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From alexx at TheWorld.com Mon Jul 14 16:13:53 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 19:13:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: from "Philip Hart" at Jul 14, 2003 03:07:56 PM Message-ID: <200307142313.TAA8270310@shell.TheWorld.com> > > So the latest thing I don't understand about _TPotD_ is: what's Sethra's > reasoning behind her decisions? If I understand the timing, she sent > Sethra the Younger to pick up Zivra, then a few days later sent Kytraan to > pick up Piro - why not send one expedition, except to have the advantage > of a separation and a reunion scene? Could this be the heavy hand of > Paarfi? The messenger who arrives to get Piro is explicitly said to be early by about a week (PD 113). My guess is that the messenger who picked up Zerika told Khaavren to expect the (second) messenger in about 2 weeks. Surmise: Sethra wanted two weeks to train Zerika in private before having Piro arrive and start the "expedition-planning" phase. > Then Sethra sends Zerika et al. off to get the Orb - but if we believe > Paarfi, the gods had at the time (whatever that means in this context) > hardly decided whether or not to relinquish it. In fact, they were > then supposedly calling up the Necromancer, who only appears several > months later. Is there any reason why Sethra picks this moment - Piro's > old enough? Tazendra has blown up her guest room again? - and why > she doesn't coordinate with the Gods? *Can* she coordinate with the gods? Do we have any textev for her having any sort of direct line to them? Not that it would surprise me if she did, of course, I just don't think it's been demonstrated. Methods of god-communication we have seen work: A) Prayer, though Vlad was extremely surprised at it working. B) Morrolan's window, plus an invocation. C) Going to the Paths of the Dead. A probably only works when/if the god(s) in question actively want to talk. B may require a resource that Sethra doesn't have (or may also require divine cooperation). C seems to be the "standard method" for mortals to initiate an audience with the gods (and is, in fact, what ends up being done). I doubt that Piro's age had much bearing on the timing, though it wouldn't surprise me at all if Zerika's age did. There are any number of other factors (both mundane and mystical) which might have contributed, but we haven't (yet, anyway) been told any of them. > As an aside, we get another typical Paarfian intro to Sennya's region - > settled in the 8th Cycle. We ought to be able to track Dragaeran > expansion - 100k years seems a long time to settle a continent... There may have been multiple periods of expansion, separated by long periods of relative stability. Taking a quick look at my timeline, I see that two events quite close in time to this were the founding of the County of Arylle and the "Pioneer Wars", so the period around the late eighth/ninth Cycles appears to have been one of expansion. There is no other mention of "expansionist" activites until about 65K years earlier, and that mention was of the *end* of an expansionist period. Granted, our facts for anything prior to _Phoenix Guards_ are extremely spotty, but there does seem to be support for a period of stability between the 3rd and 8th Cycles. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx Two wrongs are only the beginning. [Seen on a Nancy Button, http://www.nancybuttons.com/] From Gaertk at aol.com Mon Jul 14 16:50:18 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 19:50:18 -0400 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ -- Issola spoilers Message-ID: <1BB9BD87.66986665.00048EA6@aol.com> Steve Simmons writes: > We *do* have clear evidence (Sethras comments about 'waking > up' near the end of Issola) that Godslayer may have a > personality that is essentially Teldras. That's evidence that she believes there's some sort of personality in there. We also have firsthand evidence from Vlad that it feels like Teldra (literally). [snip] > From text, I think that's all we really know. ?Which, by > omission, means we don't know *who* disassembled Godslayer. >?But Sethra might, and IMHO Verra knows as well. _Dragon_ again, still on page 112 (mmpb): "The other was taken by the Gods, and an attempt was made to destroy it." That implies (but doesn't actually state) that the Gods made the attempt. Interesting that he uses "it" here after using "her" for Spellbreaker. (Easily blamed on the translators.) --KG From casey at trinityhartford.org Mon Jul 14 17:17:09 2003 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 20:17:09 -0400 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ -- Issola spoilers In-Reply-To: <1BB9BD87.66986665.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <000001c34a66$6e7496c0$a902a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Konrad wrote > That implies (but doesn't actually state) that the Gods made > the attempt. Interesting that he uses "it" here after using > "her" for Spellbreaker. (Easily blamed on the translators.) The whole gya thing all over again. From feaelin at kemenel.org Mon Jul 14 17:18:12 2003 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Iain E. Davis) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 19:18:12 -0500 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ -- Issola spoilers In-Reply-To: <1BB9BD87.66986665.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <000001c34a66$94685150$6501a8c0@Khaavren> > From: Gaertk at aol.com [mailto:Gaertk at aol.com] > _Dragon_ again, still on page 112 (mmpb): > "The other was taken by the Gods, and an attempt was made to > destroy it." > > That implies (but doesn't actually state) that the Gods made > the attempt. Interesting that he uses "it" here after using > "her" for Spellbreaker. (Easily blamed on the translators.) He may be being precise...at the time of the attempted destruction "it" was appropiate from his point of view, however currently "her" is appropiate >from his point of view. From feaelin at kemenel.org Mon Jul 14 17:18:24 2003 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Iain E. Davis) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 19:18:24 -0500 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: <200307142313.TAA8270310@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <000101c34a66$9b9b1f20$6501a8c0@Khaavren> > From: Alexx S Kay [mailto:alexx at TheWorld.com] > There may have been multiple periods of expansion, separated > by long periods of relative stability. Taking a quick look Or recession. Two or three steps forward, one or two back...:) > From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Jul 14 19:34:26 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 19:34:26 -0700 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: <000a01c34972$4aef6c10$6501a8c0@Khaavren> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030714193053.0259a1e0@localhost> At 02:09 PM 7/13/2003 -0500, Iain E. Davis wrote: > >Hmm. If you're willing to gallop the horse to death or near-death >(switching horses whenever possible), how many miles can a horse(s) cover in >a day? Anyone? Switching horses every twenty miles, under ideal conditions, with the right sort of horse, eating in the saddle or not at all, and not sleeping, it is possible to travel 500 miles in a 30 hour period...that is, it is possible to average more than 16mph. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Jul 14 19:55:44 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 19:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030714193053.0259a1e0@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030714193053.0259a1e0@localhost> Message-ID: Ok, using 1 lieue = 2.5 miles, I get d'Artagnan going at 12.5 miles/hr changing horses every 40 miles in chapter 21 of _TTM_. Pel going 1500 miles in 180 hours gives 8.3 mph. If he sleeps 6 hours/day I get 10 mph. How the condition of the Kana post could be so good and why Pel would ride this hard is unclear to me. I recall Khaavren is impressed by Crion..fenarr riding a stallion - I don't know if d'Artagnan would be - maybe this is a reflection on Dragaeran horsemanship. Any comment on the Running-After-Antelopes comment by Paarfi on pg. 297 of _TPotD_? On Mon, 14 Jul 2003, Steven Brust wrote: > At 02:09 PM 7/13/2003 -0500, Iain E. Davis wrote: > > > >Hmm. If you're willing to gallop the horse to death or near-death > >(switching horses whenever possible), how many miles can a horse(s) cover in > >a day? Anyone? > > Switching horses every twenty miles, under ideal conditions, with the right > sort of horse, eating in the saddle or not at all, and not sleeping, it is > possible to travel 500 miles in a 30 hour period...that is, it is possible > to average more than 16mph. > > > > From genji_77 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 14 20:49:03 2003 From: genji_77 at hotmail.com (Genji) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 20:49:03 -0700 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ -- Issola spoilers References: <3A0C0EF8-B3D6-11D7-8571-0003938F1608@comcast.net> <20030714204748.GB20342@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Simmons" To: "Mark A Mandel" Cc: "Kenneth Gorelick" ; "Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert" ; Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 1:47 PM Subject: Re: started rereading _TPotD_ -- Issola spoilers On Fri, Jul 11, 2003 at 03:35:55PM -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote: But we don't know if the absorption of a soul is a necessary part of the creation of a Great Weapon. Nor do we even know if it's a necessary part of the creation of Godslayer. We should bear in mind that what we see in Issola is the *reassembly* of Godslayer >from Spellbreaker, a Morganti dagger, and Teldra. Of those three parts, it may well be that only Spellbreaker was part of the original Godslayer. >From text, I think that's all we really know. Which, by omission, means we don't know *who* disassembled Godslayer. But Sethra might, and IMHO Verra knows as well. ------------------------------------------------------- Was there a specific quote in the text that says Godslayer was a full GW and then disassembled? I remember Vlad being told that spellbreaker was "not yet" a GW and the serioli hinting that spellbreaker would *become* something more. From TimN at rcn.com Tue Jul 15 05:38:35 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 08:38:35 -0400 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ -- Issola spoilers References: <3A0C0EF8-B3D6-11D7-8571-0003938F1608@comcast.net> <20030714204748.GB20342@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <002101c34ace$126911e0$d916fea9@ananda> I get the impression that the Serioli don't have an exactly...linear time sense. (This is of course assuming Draegeran time is linear -- there is some credibility to the cycle-as-time-loop theory) The quote in _Dragon_ about "because she is here in part" (paraphrased, I don't have the text here) hints at that fact. ----- Original Message ----- From: Genji Cc: Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 11:49 PM Subject: Re: started rereading _TPotD_ -- Issola spoilers > Was there a specific quote in the text that says Godslayer was a full GW and > then disassembled? I remember Vlad being told that spellbreaker was "not > yet" a GW and the serioli hinting that spellbreaker would *become* something > more. From usagigoya at hotmail.com Tue Jul 15 12:57:30 2003 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 19:57:30 +0000 Subject: Concerning next Vlad Talto novel... Message-ID: Spoiler??? This thought just occurred to me... now that Vlad has Godslayer which has Lady Teldra's personality/conscienceness/soul/whatever, will Vlad be communicating back and forth with Godslayer, and if so, will it be a three way conversation with Loiosh participating/contributing? _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From mtiller at ntlworld.com Tue Jul 15 15:40:15 2003 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 23:40:15 +0100 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030714193053.0259a1e0@localhost> Message-ID: <002101c34b22$140b6c10$0101a8c0@markspc> -----Original Message----- From: Steven Brust [mailto:skzb at dreamcafe.com] Sent: 15 July 2003 03:34 To: Iain E. Davis; 'lazarus'; 'Philip Hart' Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: RE: started rereading _TPotD_ >Switching horses every twenty miles, under ideal conditions, with the right >sort of horse, eating in the saddle or not at all, and not sleeping, it is >possible to travel 500 miles in a 30 hour period...that is, it is possible >to average more than 16mph. Are you basing that on the Pony Express Figures? I'm not doubting the accuracy, just curious about the source. Mark. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Jul 15 16:12:06 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 16:12:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: <002101c34ace$126911e0$d916fea9@ananda> References: <3A0C0EF8-B3D6-11D7-8571-0003938F1608@comcast.net> <20030714204748.GB20342@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <002101c34ace$126911e0$d916fea9@ananda> Message-ID: Latest puzzlement - as Zerika leaves the Paths and the Orb boots up, she wonders where Piro et al. are - and she knows. Piro doesn't (I presume) have a link. Ok, Tazendra did - does she still? Or does the Orb have plain old Total-Information-Awareness powers? Could the Jhereg have asked Zerika where Mellar was? Are there members of the Jhereg who are living off the grid by not getting a link (assuming that matters)? Since sorcery is now suddenly stronger, how is it that the Athyra are losing influence as the Cycle turns? Perhaps sorcery has become easier for everyone but the good stuff (relatively speaking) hasn't gotten so much simpler? From haden at train.missouri.org Tue Jul 15 19:14:39 2003 From: haden at train.missouri.org (Curtis Haden) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 21:14:39 -0500 Subject: Off Topic: WSoPoker2003, day 2 --Phil is an arse! Message-ID: <3F14B50F.3080001@train.missouri.org> Poor, poor Sam Grizzel... LMAO You just gotta love watchin Phil Helmuth (or however he spells his name) just holding court at the casino. Steve, I thought you were there when I was watching day one, but it turned out to be JESUS! ...And a cop is in third place going into day three...heh. Stuff might happen. I know this is a poor first post for a list-lurker like me, but I just couldn't help myself. Cha...If you don't like it, delete it. From davids at kithrup.com Tue Jul 15 20:34:31 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 20:34:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jul 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >Latest puzzlement - as Zerika leaves the Paths and the Orb boots up, she >wonders where Piro et al. are - and she knows. Piro doesn't (I presume) >have a link. Ok, Tazendra did - does she still? Or does the Orb have >plain old Total-Information-Awareness powers? I got the impression from /Orca/ that there are things that the Empress can do with the Orb which she is constrained from doing for political reasons (i.e., doing so will piss off the Hous(es) involved (which will cause stress and turmoil, and interfere with trade)). > >Could the Jhereg have asked Zerika where Mellar was? > She might have been able to find Mellar in theory, but consider: House Jhereg would have had to ask. Remember that the whole point was to keep the matter hush-hush. And if they *did* ask, she might have said no (because she doesn't particularly want to favor House Jhereg), and if she'd said yes, then House Jhereg might find themselves in debt to the Empress - which might be a greater problem to them than the loss of funds & the loss of face. Easier for House Jhereg to handle things their own way. Or at least, perhaps that's how it seemed to them, even assuming the Imperial Tracking System exists. > > Are there members of the Jhereg who are living off the grid by not >getting a link (assuming that matters)? > I am starting to wonder more about the ones who settled Greenaere... From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Jul 15 20:52:16 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 22:52:16 -0500 Subject: Concerning next Vlad Talto novel... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030716035216.GB3702@infodancer.org> On Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 07:57:30PM +0000, Steve Hubbell wrote: > Spoiler??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This thought just occurred to me... now that Vlad has Godslayer which has > Lady Teldra's personality/conscienceness/soul/whatever, will Vlad be > communicating back and forth with Godslayer, and if so, will it be a three > way conversation with Loiosh participating/contributing? Prediction: Loiosh will be jealous, and sulk. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Jul 15 21:10:20 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 21:10:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jul 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > On Tue, 15 Jul 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > >Or does the Orb have plain old Total-Information-Awareness powers? > I got the impression from /Orca/ that there are things that the > Empress can do with the Orb which she is constrained from doing > for political reasons (i.e., doing so will piss off the Hous(es) > involved (which will cause stress and turmoil, and interfere with > trade)). I missed this in _Orca_ - any idea where? > >Could the Jhereg have asked Zerika where Mellar was? > She might have been able to find Mellar in theory, but consider: > House Jhereg would have had to ask. Remember that the whole point was > to keep the matter hush-hush. And if they *did* ask, she might have > said no (because she doesn't particularly want to favor House Jhereg), > and if she'd said yes, then House Jhereg might find themselves in debt > to the Empress - which might be a greater problem to them than the > loss of funds & the loss of face. > > Easier for House Jhereg to handle things their own way. Or at least, > perhaps that's how it seemed to them, even assuming the Imperial > Tracking System exists. I believe they could have told Z they would go to the mat over this - and I think she would understand their need to. And if she gave them too much trouble about the debt, there's still Mario (unless you like the Sethra/Aliera-killed-Tortaalik theory). From ikep at umbc.edu Tue Jul 15 21:12:52 2003 From: ikep at umbc.edu (Ike Porter) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 00:12:52 -0400 Subject: Off Topic: WSoPoker2003, day 2 --Phil is an arse! In-Reply-To: <3F14B50F.3080001@train.missouri.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jul 2003, Curtis Haden wrote: > Poor, poor Sam Grizzel... LMAO You just gotta love watchin Phil Helmuth > (or however he spells his name) just holding court at the casino. > Steve, I thought you were there when I was watching day one, but it > turned out to be JESUS! ...And a cop is in third place going into day > three...heh. Stuff might happen. > > I know this is a poor first post for a list-lurker like me, but I just > couldn't help myself. Cha...If you don't like it, delete it. Haven't seen it yet, but thus far haven't seen anything to counter what you say :) --Brother Ike From davids at kithrup.com Tue Jul 15 22:15:46 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 22:15:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jul 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > >On Tue, 15 Jul 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > >> On Tue, 15 Jul 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > >> >Or does the Orb have plain old Total-Information-Awareness powers? > >> I got the impression from /Orca/ that there are things that the >> Empress can do with the Orb which she is constrained from doing >> for political reasons (i.e., doing so will piss off the House(s) >> involved (which will cause stress and turmoil, and interfere with >> trade)). > >I missed this in _Orca_ - any idea where? > Specifically, in the conversation between Kiera (as Third-Chart-Master-Areik) & Side-Captain Vonnith. Vonnith: "The Empress? Using the Orb? She wouldn't! She's a /Phoenix/!" Kiera: "She hasn't yet, and she may not, but it would be the obvious next step, wouldn't it?" [snip] Vonnith: "No one has done that since the seventh Jhereg Reign, and you know what happened then!" Now, it is kinda murky *what* the Orb could be (or was) used for that would cause that kind of consternation, but the only conclusion I can draw is that it (a) it's powerful and nasty and (b) it Simply Isn't Done because there are political consequences to being powerful and nasty. Hmm. If the Orb can track anyone, why was the location of the Baroness Kaluma unknown in tPG? From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Jul 15 22:57:55 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 22:57:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Hmm. If the Orb can track anyone, why was the location of the > Baroness Kaluma unknown in tPG? Some speculation: A) Tortaalik is an idiot. I could well imagine the Orb can be configured by the user to do a variety of shall we say nondemocratic things. But perhaps this requires a certain amount of hacking which T. can't be expected to carry out. (I for example can't get my new printer to run under either linux or windows...) On the other hand, I think the Orb makes the Emperor a sort of Autarch a la Wolfe - doesn't it contain the memories of the past Emperors? Though perhaps there are some levels of security involved. Note that anything we hear about the Orb is suspect - it might for example be Sethran misinformation intended to foil hacking attempts. B) Tortaalik doesn't really care or it doesn't occur to him to look for her. See A). And the various factions interested in nabbing the Baroness don't prompt him. C) Boringly, we see your "privacy rights" effect at work - the Emperor shouldn't be peeking into Adron's bedroom or wherever. D) We see the Orb's upgrades in action at the end of _TPotD_. Maybe only a skilled Emperor could do what is automatic for Zerika IV. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Jul 15 23:19:28 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 23:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Hmm. If the Orb can track anyone, why was the location of the > Baroness Kaluma unknown in tPG? I was about to exult over the possible solution to something that had puzzled me for a while. To wit, at the end of _Phoenix_, Aliera shows up with Vlad's ueberboss nicely trussed up and says in part (AFB) that the Orb helped. But how did the Orb help? Maybe it found the ueberboss. Unfortunately, Pathfinder could do that just as well. Unless it (Drien seems to me a brilliant supposition but kind of a coincidence) requires something - say some epithelials - to work with... From ladybirdsleeps at hotmail.com Wed Jul 16 00:49:03 2003 From: ladybirdsleeps at hotmail.com (The Hostile Takeover Party) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 07:49:03 +0000 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ Message-ID: >Switching horses every twenty miles, under ideal conditions, with the right >sort of horse, eating in the saddle or not at all, and not sleeping, it is >possible to travel 500 miles in a 30 hour period...that is, it is possible >to average more than 16mph. What's always made me wonder is how you fantasy authors figure stuff like this out. Is there some secret and weighty tome locked away in the vaults of the Fantasy Writer's Guild, or did you have to do the math yourself? Always curious, Snap ---------------------------------------------- "I'm lots smarter than you are. I challenge you to understand even one of my paragraphs!" ---------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Hela veckans v?der http://www.msn.se/vader From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Wed Jul 16 05:06:54 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:06:54 +0000 Subject: Concerning next Vlad Talto novel... Message-ID: Matthew Hunter wrote: >On Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 07:57:30PM +0000, Steve Hubbell > wrote: > > Spoiler??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This thought just occurred to me... now that Vlad has Godslayer which >has > > Lady Teldra's personality/conscienceness/soul/whatever, will Vlad be > > communicating back and forth with Godslayer, and if so, will it be a >three > > way conversation with Loiosh participating/contributing? > >Prediction: Loiosh will be jealous, and sulk. In this case it would be funny to see such different contributions to Vlad thoughts: the polite Issola's comments and the not-so-polite jhereg's, and specially their own conversations. _________________________________________________________________ Accede al romance onine. Descubre gente que busca a otra gente en MSN Amor & Amistad. http://match.msn.es/ From GibelMaria at aol.com Wed Jul 16 05:10:10 2003 From: GibelMaria at aol.com (GibelMaria at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 08:10:10 EDT Subject: Concerning next Vlad Talto novel... Message-ID: <1d6.dd73eed.2c469aa2@aol.com> In a message dated 7/16/2003 8:07:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ivanrebollo at hotmail.com writes: > Matthew Hunter wrote: > >On Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 07:57:30PM +0000, Steve Hubbell > > wrote: > >>Spoiler??? > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>This thought just occurred to me... now that Vlad has Godslayer which > >has > >>Lady Teldra's personality/conscienceness/soul/whatever, will Vlad be > >>communicating back and forth with Godslayer, and if so, will it be a > >three > >>way conversation with Loiosh participating/contributing? > > > >Prediction: Loiosh will be jealous, and sulk. > > In this case it would be funny to see such different contributions to Vlad > thoughts: the polite Issola's comments and the not-so-polite jhereg's, and > specially their own conversations. > > _________________________________________________________________ Would make for one heck of a headache.... GB From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Wed Jul 16 09:31:51 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 09:31:51 -0700 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1fvahv41punuoalqtg8ol1kr9fufvp1cs2@4ax.com> On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 23:19:28 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >> Hmm. If the Orb can track anyone, why was the location of the >> Baroness Kaluma unknown in tPG? > >I was about to exult over the possible solution to something that had >puzzled me for a while. To wit, at the end of _Phoenix_, Aliera shows up >with Vlad's ueberboss nicely trussed up and says in part (AFB) that the >Orb helped. But how did the Orb help? Maybe it found the ueberboss. >Unfortunately, Pathfinder could do that just as well. Unless it (Drien >seems to me a brilliant supposition but kind of a coincidence) requires >something - say some epithelials - to work with... Maybe the Orb helped them break through to Greenaere? -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From davids at kithrup.com Wed Jul 16 10:47:44 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:47:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Concerning next Vlad Talto novel... In-Reply-To: <20030716035216.GB3702@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jul 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: >On Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 07:57:30PM +0000, Steve Hubbell > wrote: >> Spoiler??? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> This thought just occurred to me... now that Vlad has Godslayer >> which has Lady Teldra's personality/conscienceness/soul/whatever, >> will Vlad be communicating back and forth with Godslayer, and if >> so, will it be a three way conversation with Loiosh >> participating/contributing? >Prediction: Loiosh will be jealous, and sulk. > But Loiosh *likes* Lady Teldra. I bet that if he *does* feel jealous, Lady Teldra will be excruciatingly polite to him until he snaps out of it. On the other hand, I note that when Vlad was inside the Morganti dagger, Loiosh had problems talking to Vlad, and didn't really know what he was up to. What if... Loiosh & Lady Teldra can't actually hear each other, but can only talk to Vlad? That would be interesting as well. From usagigoya at hotmail.com Wed Jul 16 12:26:49 2003 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 19:26:49 +0000 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ Message-ID: >>On Tue, 15 Jul 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > >Latest puzzlement - as Zerika leaves the Paths and the Orb boots up, she > >wonders where Piro et al. are - and she knows. Piro doesn't (I presume) > >have a link. Ok, Tazendra did - does she still? Or does the Orb have > >plain old Total-Information-Awareness powers? and > > Are there members of the Jhereg who are living off the grid by not > >getting a link (assuming that matters)? >On Tue, 15 Jul 2003, David Silberstein wrote: >I am starting to wonder more about the ones who settled Greenaere... > it is mentioned (in Yendi at least) that all dragearans belonging to any of the seventeen houses have a link to the orb but easterners must buy a Jhereg title and get a link or become a serf and thereby get a link by joining the house of the Teckla, etc. (like Miko in Brokedown Palace?). This, to me, means that any Dragaeran is automaticly linked to the Orb, most likely the ones living on Greenaere as well, but because of the phoenix stone deposits (black and/or gold), are unable to access or make use of it or be tracked or located by it as well. There is no evidence that Vlad's drummer friend from the island cound or could not access the Orb if he had wanted to and removed his phoenix stone pendant to make an attempt... also, maybe Zerika could locate Piro because she actually knew him, i.e. similar to knowing someone well enough to communicate mind to mind, etc? _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From gomi at speakeasy.net Wed Jul 16 12:38:14 2003 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jul 2003, Steve Hubbell wrote: > it is mentioned (in Yendi at least) that all dragearans belonging to any of > the seventeen houses have a link to the orb but easterners must buy a Jhereg > title and get a link or become a serf and thereby get a link by joining the > house of the Teckla, etc. (like Miko in Brokedown Palace?). This, to me, > means that any Dragaeran is automaticly linked to the Orb, most likely the > ones living on Greenaere as well, but because of the phoenix stone deposits > (black and/or gold), are unable to access or make use of it or be tracked or > located by it as well. Dragaerans on Greenare don't belong to any House, though, so (to the best of my understanding) do not have a link to the Orb, phoenix stone or no. > There is no evidence that Vlad's drummer friend from > the island cound or could not access the Orb if he had wanted to and removed > his phoenix stone pendant to make an attempt... He could gain a link in the normal ways -- buying his way into the Jhereg, swearing fealty and becoming a Teckla, or the comedy 'fight his way into the Dzur' option. But I don't believe he automagically gets a link just by virtue of being Dragaeran. pe From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Jul 16 13:03:32 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 13:03:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > There is no evidence that Vlad's drummer friend from > > the island cound or could not access the Orb if he had wanted to and removed > > his phoenix stone pendant to make an attempt... > > He could gain a link in the normal ways -- buying his way into the Jhereg, > swearing fealty and becoming a Teckla, or the comedy 'fight his way into > the Dzur' option. But I don't believe he automagically gets a link just > by virtue of being Dragaeran. I suspect the Elde Islanders aren't linked... Anyway, re the comedy option, might one have to be a member of the Empire first? Would they let Vlad fight his way in? A random Easterner? A (lower-case) dragon? From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Jul 16 15:13:18 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:13:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jul 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > Hmm. If the Orb can track anyone, why was the location of the > > Baroness Kaluma unknown in tPG? > > Some speculation: > > A) Tortaalik is an idiot. I could well imagine the Orb can be configured > by the user to do a variety of shall we say nondemocratic things. But > perhaps this requires a certain amount of hacking which T. can't be > expected to carry out. (I for example can't get my new printer to run > under either linux or windows...) On the other hand, I think the Orb > makes the Emperor a sort of Autarch a la Wolfe - doesn't it contain the > memories of the past Emperors? Though perhaps there are some levels of > security involved. Note that anything we hear about the Orb is suspect - > it might for example be Sethran misinformation intended to foil hacking > attempts. > > B) Tortaalik doesn't really care or it doesn't occur to him to look for > her. See A). And the various factions interested in nabbing the Baroness > don't prompt him. > > C) Boringly, we see your "privacy rights" effect at work - the Emperor > shouldn't be peeking into Adron's bedroom or wherever. > > D) We see the Orb's upgrades in action at the end of _TPotD_. Maybe only > a skilled Emperor could do what is automatic for Zerika IV. Two actual data points - in _TPG_ Chapter 11, page 115/6, we learn that Tortaalik has ordered Kathana's arrest - but she has friends in high places plus court politics on her side. Maybe Tortaalik in fact knows where she is but can't get her without unpleasant repercussions. But then during Khaavren's interrogation, page 458, it comes out that his Majesty has no idea whether Garland is even alive. In the interest of justice he would certainly ping the Favorite if he were able. Finally note that the previous Empress was an Athyra and presumably had full access to the Orb's modules - she might well have been able to tell Tortaalik where the person who provoked her abdication could be found... As an aside, are there any journalists in Dragaera beyond the Rutter's Rag variety? Does the prevalence of dueling make this impossible? Or is this not a profession allowed even under benevolent dictatorships? I'm wondering why Pel's information about the circumstances of Uttrik's father's death was so biased even though Kathana has so many powerful friends, and why it wasn't an open secret where she was hiding. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Jul 16 17:37:06 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 17:37:06 -0700 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: <002101c34b22$140b6c10$0101a8c0@markspc> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030714193053.0259a1e0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030716173500.01d63010@localhost> At 11:40 PM 7/15/2003 +0100, Mark Tiller wrote: >-----Original Message----- >From: Steven Brust [mailto:skzb at dreamcafe.com] >Sent: 15 July 2003 03:34 >To: Iain E. Davis; 'lazarus'; 'Philip Hart' >Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: RE: started rereading _TPotD_ > > >Switching horses every twenty miles, under ideal conditions, with the right > > >sort of horse, eating in the saddle or not at all, and not sleeping, it is > >possible to travel 500 miles in a 30 hour period...that is, it is possible > >to average more than 16mph. > >Are you basing that on the Pony Express Figures? I'm not doubting the >accuracy, just curious about the source. That was one source. Another was the French systems of posts under Richelieu at certain periods. And you can learn a lot about horses' top speeds and how long they can maintain them on the good ole' internet. From davids at kithrup.com Wed Jul 16 19:21:07 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 19:21:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Overcast Message-ID: I thought this was amusing: There's a trick I like to pull on my friends. Standing in a large city on an overcast night, I'll ask them to look down at the sidewalk and tell me what color the sky is. They invariably will say black or, sometimes, dark blue. Look up, I'll say. And to their astonishment the sky is neither black nor blue, but a dull, smoky red - reflecting the orange glow of all those sodium and mercury vapor streetlights. Cut from an essay about SF & the future by Michael Swanwick: http://www.michaelswanwick.com/nonfic/future.html From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Jul 16 19:31:34 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 19:31:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Overcast In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jul 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > I thought this was amusing: > > There's a trick I like to pull on my friends. Standing in a large > city on an overcast night, I'll ask them to look down at the > sidewalk and tell me what color the sky is. They invariably will > say black or, sometimes, dark blue. Look up, I'll say. And to > their astonishment the sky is neither black nor blue, but a dull, > smoky red - reflecting the orange glow of all those sodium and > mercury vapor streetlights. > > Cut from an essay about SF & the future by Michael Swanwick: > > http://www.michaelswanwick.com/nonfic/future.html Swanwick should do this in Chicago - the sky can be pinkish-orange... Anyway, this doesn't work in SF for some reason. I don't know any chemistry and wonder if Dragaeran could have isolated sodium - my dictionary says this was done in 1807. Can static spells do work? Maybe they don't know about electricity per se, but perhaps a run-a-lightning-bolt-100-times-per-second-through-mercury spell would be within their grasp... From slothman at amurgsval.org Wed Jul 16 23:21:42 2003 From: slothman at amurgsval.org (Max Rible) Date: 16 Jul 2003 23:21:42 -0700 Subject: Overcast In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1058422902.17135.7.camel@diogenes> On Wed, 2003-07-16 at 19:31, Philip Hart wrote: > On Wed, 16 Jul 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > > > I thought this was amusing: > > > > There's a trick I like to pull on my friends. Standing in a large > > city on an overcast night, I'll ask them to look down at the > > sidewalk and tell me what color the sky is. They invariably will > > say black or, sometimes, dark blue. Look up, I'll say. And to > > their astonishment the sky is neither black nor blue, but a dull, > > smoky red - reflecting the orange glow of all those sodium and > > mercury vapor streetlights. > > > > Cut from an essay about SF & the future by Michael Swanwick: > > > > http://www.michaelswanwick.com/nonfic/future.html > > > Swanwick should do this in Chicago - the sky can be pinkish-orange... > Anyway, this doesn't work in SF for some reason. In Sunnyvale, I can *read* by the skyglow on a cloudy night. And that was the phenomenon that sprang to mind the first time I read of the overcast over the Dragaeran Empire... -- %% Max Rible http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %% %% "The duty of the patriot is to protect his country from its %% %% government." -- Thomas Paine, _The Rights of Man_ %% From alexx at TheWorld.com Thu Jul 17 07:43:10 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:43:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Overcast In-Reply-To: from "David Silberstein" at Jul 16, 2003 07:21:07 PM Message-ID: <200307171443.KAA8578910@shell.TheWorld.com> [Bouncing to the list, since I can't answer a question for Steve :-) ] > > I thought this was amusing: > > There's a trick I like to pull on my friends. Standing in a large > city on an overcast night, I'll ask them to look down at the > sidewalk and tell me what color the sky is. They invariably will > say black or, sometimes, dark blue. Look up, I'll say. And to > their astonishment the sky is neither black nor blue, but a dull, > smoky red - reflecting the orange glow of all those sodium and > mercury vapor streetlights. For years, the winter nights in Boston have reminded me of the Overcast. Hey Steve, was it actually based on/inspired by this real-world phenomenon, or is the similarity just coincidence? > Cut from an essay about SF & the future by Michael Swanwick: > > http://www.michaelswanwick.com/nonfic/future.html Cool essay! Thanks for the link. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "Basically, he said he felt that I was being, historically speaking, a little unfair and unnecessarily harsh in my portrayal of Queen Victoria and that reality flew out of the window whenever Fat Vicky made an appearance. For my part I was surprised, since I thought reality had flown out of the window with the giant three-headed goat-god in chapter two." -- Alan Moore in correspondence with Dave Sim about _From Hell_ From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Jul 17 10:11:29 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:11:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Overcast Message-ID: <200307171711.h6HHBDI14205@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > I thought this was amusing: > > There's a trick I like to pull on my friends. Standing in a large > city on an overcast night, I'll ask them to look down at the > sidewalk and tell me what color the sky is. They invariably will > say black or, sometimes, dark blue. Look up, I'll say. And to > their astonishment the sky is neither black nor blue, but a dull, > smoky red - reflecting the orange glow of all those sodium and > mercury vapor streetlights. As a former resident of San Francisco, this is entirely accurate. There have been times (though not every night) when the sky above the City does have a strange orange cast to it, and even though you can't see the moon or stars, the sky is shockingly bright. I didn't know it was because of the sodium and mercury vapor streetlights, however. That's kinda cool (or scary, depending. Are we sucking mercury vapor?). Still looks cool, though, when the fog rolls along above your head and it's not your normal white-fog color....:) Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Jul 17 10:38:14 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: everything can be found in Paarfi In-Reply-To: <200307171711.h6HHBDI14205@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200307171711.h6HHBDI14205@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: Re two recent issues, _FHYA_ pg 141 (ppb), Khaavren discusses the Briartown affair with Adron, who apparently moved 2000 soldiers 400 miles in 30 hours (13.3 mph), not far from the limit of 16 mph given the amount of time required for coordination. If this involves a change of mount every 20 miles, that comes to 2k*20 or 40,000 horses. Does that mean that Adron maintains that many horses along a particular path? Or say along 10 paths leading 400 miles from Redface, for maybe 200k horses? (Aside - Rollondar is Adron's cousin - Molric is Morrolan's brother - Morrolan is Adron's cousin. I wonder how lineage works.) On pg 173, Paarfi answers the question, Can Tortaalik phone via the Orb, in the affirmative - the Emperor refrains from contacting Khaavren during the first uprising. On the other hand, I think the questions about his capabilities at the time of _TPG_ remain - perhaps he was too new on the throne, though this still doesn't seem entirely consistent with the end of _TPotD_. From gomi at speakeasy.net Thu Jul 17 10:42:02 2003 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:42:02 -0700 Subject: Overcast In-Reply-To: <200307171711.h6HHBDI14205@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200307171711.h6HHBDI14205@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:11:29 -0700 (PDT), Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > I didn't know it was because of the sodium and > mercury vapor streetlights, however. That's kinda cool (or scary, > depending. Are we sucking mercury vapor?). Only if you break the bulb and breathe deep. I trust you shall refrain. pe From alexx at TheWorld.com Thu Jul 17 12:55:29 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 15:55:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: everything can be found in Paarfi In-Reply-To: from "Philip Hart" at Jul 17, 2003 10:38:14 AM Message-ID: <200307171955.PAA8981920@shell.TheWorld.com> > > Re two recent issues, _FHYA_ pg 141 (ppb), Khaavren discusses the > Briartown affair with Adron, who apparently moved 2000 soldiers 400 miles > in 30 hours (13.3 mph), not far from the limit of 16 mph given the amount > of time required for coordination. If this involves a change of mount > every 20 miles, that comes to 2k*20 or 40,000 horses. Does that mean > that Adron maintains that many horses along a particular path? Or say > along 10 paths leading 400 miles from Redface, for maybe 200k horses? Wow, that's a lot of horses. Alternative theory: maybe Adron's post stations don't actually have spare horses -- but "horse insta-rest" spells. If you want to explain why such a spell is not in wide use (assuming that it actually isn't), you might posit that it does long-term damage to the horse(s) in question. That would keep it from casual use, or even regular official use, but certainly could be handy in an emergency. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx Intelligence is the ultimate aphrodisiac. [Seen on a Nancy Button, http://www.nancybuttons.com/] From goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU Thu Jul 17 14:47:17 2003 From: goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (David Goldfarb) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 14:47:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Overcast Message-ID: <200307172147.h6HLlHd00706@apocalypse.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> From: Chris Olson - SunPS >> I thought this was amusing: >> >> There's a trick I like to pull on my friends. Standing in a large >> city on an overcast night, I'll ask them to look down at the >> sidewalk and tell me what color the sky is. They invariably will >> say black or, sometimes, dark blue. Look up, I'll say. And to >> their astonishment the sky is neither black nor blue, but a dull, >> smoky red - reflecting the orange glow of all those sodium and >> mercury vapor streetlights. > >As a former resident of San Francisco, this is entirely >accurate. There have been times (though not every night) >when the sky above the City does have a strange orange cast >to it, and even though you can't see the moon or stars, the >sky is shockingly bright. I've lived in Oakland/Berkeley all my life, and I've noticed this many times. Do people really not? I suppose there are just a lot of people who rarely look up; I've heard that there are those who haven't even noticed that the moon sometimes appears in the daytime sky. -- David Goldfarb <*>|"Just once I'd like to battle an alien menace goldfarb at ocf.berkeley.edu | that *wasn't* immune to bullets." | -- Brigadier Lethbridge-Stuart goldfarb at csua.berkeley.edu | Doctor Who: "Robot" From dgf at dd-b.net Thu Jul 17 15:17:03 2003 From: dgf at dd-b.net (dgf at dd-b.net) Date: 17 Jul 2003 22:17:03 -0000 Subject: Dragaera subscriber list Message-ID: <20030717221703.3637.qmail@dd-b.net> acwest-dragaera (at) craigwest.net (email) "A. 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Nonymous" zaphod (at) charter.net (email) "Greg Schwartz" zarkon (at) illrepute.org (email) John Klein zizban (at) adelphia.net (email) Chris Turkel From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Thu Jul 17 19:06:44 2003 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 19:06:44 -0700 Subject: everything can be found in Paarfi Message-ID: <200307171906.AA23396882@amish2000.com> ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Philip Hart Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:38:14 -0700 (PDT) >(Aside - Rollondar is Adron's cousin - Molric is Morrolan's brother - >Morrolan is Adron's cousin. I wonder how lineage works.) Well, my mother uses "cousin" to refer to any relative who isn't a sibling, parent (plain, step-, great-, whatnot), aunt, or uncle, so Paarfi _might_ be using that definition. On the other hand, I seem to recall that someone said that Morrolan was the kid of Adron's youngest sister, so in this case, "cousin" might mean "brother-in-law," or it might mean "first cousin three times removed," or it might be "third cousin." Dragons, like hobbits, seem the sort to be fascinated by the meanderings of family trees. We'd have to consult the genealogies at the end of the Red Book of Castle Black to be certain. ? MJ From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Jul 17 17:28:57 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:28:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: everything can be found in Paarfi In-Reply-To: <200307171906.AA23396882@amish2000.com> References: <200307171906.AA23396882@amish2000.com> Message-ID: >> (Aside - Rollondar is Adron's cousin - Molric is Morrolan's >> brother - Morrolan is Adron's cousin. I wonder how lineage works.) > Well, my mother uses "cousin" to refer to any relative who isn't a > sibling, parent (plain, step-, great-, whatnot), aunt, or uncle, so > Paarfi _might_ be using that definition. > On the other hand, I seem to recall that someone said that Morrolan > was the kid of Adron's youngest sister, so in this case, "cousin" > might mean "brother-in-law," or it might mean "first cousin three > times removed," or it might be "third cousin." Dragons, like > hobbits, seem the sort to be fascinated by the meanderings of > family trees. We'd have to consult the genealogies at the end of > the Red Book of Castle Black to be certain. I was unclear re "lineage" - I meant, how is it that Rollondar is e'Drien but Adron e'Kieron. What you say about "cousin" is full of justice. But note that Paarfi refers to Molric as Adron's nephew on pg 278. Perhaps this is an odd error by Paarfi; another option is that Dragaeran has finer discrimination of relationships than English and the translator got confused... I can't recall the youngest sister relationship - dying brain cells. Looking forward to reading the (Blood-)Red Book. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Jul 17 18:51:27 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 18:51:27 -0700 Subject: Overcast In-Reply-To: <200307171443.KAA8578910@shell.TheWorld.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030717185039.02590c90@localhost> At 10:43 AM 7/17/2003 -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: > >For years, the winter nights in Boston have reminded me of the Overcast. >Hey Steve, was it actually based on/inspired by this real-world >phenomenon, or is the similarity just coincidence? Hmmm. Ever been in San Diego at night during an inversion? From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Thu Jul 17 19:02:01 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 19:02:01 -0700 Subject: Overcast In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030717185039.02590c90@localhost> References: <200307171443.KAA8578910@shell.TheWorld.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20030717185039.02590c90@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 18:51:27 -0700, you wrote: >At 10:43 AM 7/17/2003 -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: >> >>For years, the winter nights in Boston have reminded me of the Overcast. >>Hey Steve, was it actually based on/inspired by this real-world >>phenomenon, or is the similarity just coincidence? > >Hmmm. Ever been in San Diego at night during an inversion? > So that's where I got that weird feeling when I saw my first inversion. The first time I saw one, my wife had to explain it to me, I thought it was smog or something. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Thu Jul 17 21:38:19 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 00:38:19 -0400 Subject: Overcast In-Reply-To: References: <200307171443.KAA8578910@shell.TheWorld.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20030717185039.02590c90@localhost> Message-ID: <3F1779BB.7060606@earthlink.net> lazarus wrote: >On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 18:51:27 -0700, you wrote: > > >>At 10:43 AM 7/17/2003 -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: >> >> >>>For years, the winter nights in Boston have reminded me of the Overcast. >>>Hey Steve, was it actually based on/inspired by this real-world >>>phenomenon, or is the similarity just coincidence? >>> >>> >>Hmmm. Ever been in San Diego at night during an inversion? >> >> > >So that's where I got that weird feeling when I saw my first >inversion. The first time I saw one, my wife had to explain it to me, >I thought it was smog or something. > > What's an inversion? Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Thu Jul 17 21:34:19 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 21:34:19 -0700 Subject: Overcast In-Reply-To: <3F1779BB.7060606@earthlink.net> References: <200307171443.KAA8578910@shell.TheWorld.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20030717185039.02590c90@localhost> <3F1779BB.7060606@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 00:38:19 -0400, you wrote: > >lazarus wrote: > >>On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 18:51:27 -0700, you wrote: >> >> >>>At 10:43 AM 7/17/2003 -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: >>> >>> >>>>For years, the winter nights in Boston have reminded me of the Overcast. >>>>Hey Steve, was it actually based on/inspired by this real-world >>>>phenomenon, or is the similarity just coincidence? >>>> >>>> >>>Hmmm. Ever been in San Diego at night during an inversion? >>> >>> >> >>So that's where I got that weird feeling when I saw my first >>inversion. The first time I saw one, my wife had to explain it to me, >>I thought it was smog or something. >> >> >What's an inversion? > >Jose It's when warm air is on the bottom and cold air is on the top. At the barrier, a weird sort of cloud/fog/smog barrier manifests. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From thornsharp at hotmail.com Thu Jul 17 21:49:44 2003 From: thornsharp at hotmail.com (Tom Swenson) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 21:49:44 -0700 Subject: Zerika and Piro Message-ID: > So the latest thing I don't understand about _TPotD_ is: what's Sethra's > reasoning behind her decisions? If I understand the timing, she sent > Sethra the Younger to pick up Zivra, then a few days later sent Kytraan to > pick up Piro - why not send one expedition, except to have the advantage > of a separation and a reunion scene? Could this be the heavy hand of > Paarfi? > > I could be misremembering, but didn't Sethra state that Piro was > specifically there at Zerika's request? In other words, Sethra didn't > know, when she sent for Zerika, that Zerika would ask for Piro shortly > after she arrived.First, I'm new here.. It took a second reading of PoTD to find the nifty website credit. It seems possible that Piro didn't go with sethra and Zivra, because they had to start Zivra's education as a Pheonix /right away/ and haveing the Piro along as a distraction (and by the way haveing him being bored while Z spent all this time learning the secret knowledge... Seems to me one of the most dangerous things in dragera is a bored Tiassa...) Not to mentionthat Piro wouldn't be privy to the Pheonix house secrets. Naturally this also gave us time to meet Kavraan and Daro again as well as Lar.As for the gods, it seems pretty clear taht Sethra is doing her thing on her own, and the gods have their dicussion after they realize what the Enchantress is up to. Remember according to the gods themselves, there is little real communicaition between the real world and the Halls of Judgement.Tom Swenson From davids at kithrup.com Fri Jul 18 07:11:46 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 07:11:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Overcast In-Reply-To: <200307172147.h6HLlHd00706@apocalypse.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, David Goldfarb wrote: > >I've lived in Oakland/Berkeley all my life, and I've noticed this >many times. Do people really not? I suppose there are just a lot of >people who rarely look up; I've heard that there are those who >haven't even noticed that the moon sometimes appears in the daytime >sky. > "I left Earth seven years ago. In that time, do you know the most interesting thing I've learned about downsiders?" It was so completely out of line out of anything I'd been expecting to hear from him that it threw me completely out of position. I stared at him, unsnapped the guard on my holster -- heard the sound of holsters popping all around me -- and said, finally, very gently, "No. What is the most interesting thing about downsiders?" "Downsiders," said the clown, "never look up." -- From "The Last Dancer", by Daniel Keys Moran From books at bofh.com Fri Jul 18 09:16:03 2003 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 09:16:03 -0700 Subject: Overcast In-Reply-To: References: <200307172147.h6HLlHd00706@apocalypse.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: <20030718161603.GA14176@bofh.com> On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 07:11:46AM -0700, David Silberstein wrote: > On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, David Goldfarb wrote: > > > > >I've lived in Oakland/Berkeley all my life, and I've noticed this > >many times. Do people really not? I suppose there are just a lot of > >people who rarely look up; I've heard that there are those who > >haven't even noticed that the moon sometimes appears in the daytime > >sky. > > > > "I left Earth seven years ago. In that time, do you know the > most interesting thing I've learned about downsiders?" I knew the book, and even the scene from this line. Of course, if only he had been wearing the floppy clown shoes. :) ...and I like "The Long Run" better. I think one of my favorite lines was something like: "...and that's how you can tell if it's a long stemmed rose or a short stemmed rose" -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From books at bofh.com Fri Jul 18 09:23:54 2003 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 09:23:54 -0700 Subject: Overcast In-Reply-To: <3F1779BB.7060606@earthlink.net> References: <200307171443.KAA8578910@shell.TheWorld.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20030717185039.02590c90@localhost> <3F1779BB.7060606@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20030718162354.GB14176@bofh.com> > What's an inversion? Short for "thermal inversion", at least here. Happens in the winter here, where you get a layer of cold air trapping in a layer of warmer air. The air stagnates, and as a result pollution levels climb. Since we live in a natural basin (Phoenix) and have little rain, the sky starts to look very LA'ish. I thought San Diego got enough wind to disturb this, but clearly, I'm wrong. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From davids at kithrup.com Fri Jul 18 10:28:29 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 10:28:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Overcast In-Reply-To: <20030718161603.GA14176@bofh.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Jot Powers wrote: >On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 07:11:46AM -0700, David Silberstein wrote: >> >> "I left Earth seven years ago. In that time, do you know the >> most interesting thing I've learned about downsiders?" > >I knew the book, and even the scene from this line. Of course, >if only he had been wearing the floppy clown shoes. :) > He *was* wearing the floppy clown shoes. One of them came off when Neil Corona backhanded him, just before he says those lines. From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Jul 18 12:05:49 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:05:49 -0400 Subject: Daniel Keys Moran (was: Overcast) Message-ID: <628B3BB2.4E4033EB.00048EA6@aol.com> David Silberstein writes: > On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, David Goldfarb wrote: > >> I've lived in Oakland/Berkeley all my life, and I've >> noticed this many times. ?Do people really not? ?I suppose >> there are just a lot of people who rarely look up; I've >> heard that there are those who haven't even noticed that >> the moon sometimes appears in the daytime sky. > > ? ? ?"I left Earth seven years ago. ?In that time, do you > know the most interesting thing I've learned about > downsiders?" > > ? ? ?It was so completely out of line out of anything I'd > been expecting to hear from him that it threw me > completely out of position. ?I stared at him, unsnapped > the guard on my holster -- heard the sound of holsters > popping all around me -- and said, finally, very gently, > "No. ?What is the most interesting thing about > downsiders?" > > ? ? ?"Downsiders," said the clown, "never look up." > > ? ?-- From "The Last Dancer", by Daniel Keys Moran Great book, and coincidentally, one I just finished reading. It's also the third book of a series so may not be the best place to start. The second book, _The Long Run_, IS a good place to start, as well as being super cool. Here's a sample >from that one: [copied from Chad Orzel's review cuz I'm lazy] "[W]hen I take something that belongs to, say, a Player whose behavior I find inappropriate... I've _touched_ that person. They can't ignore what I'm saying to them. They _can't_." Denice stared at him. "You mean-- you _steal_ things-- so people will listen to you?" "No, no," said Trent impatiently. "Don't be silly. Nobody ever listens anyhow. Mostly I steal things because I get paid for it." He grinned at her. "But isn't that a _great_ explanation?" Denice smiled slowly, reluctantly. "Oh, Trent." She shook her head slowly, the smile fading. "I never did know when to believe you." "Believe _everything_ I say," said Trent. "Everything?" "Or nothing. The results are the same." "What results?" "Chaos usually. But only because most of the people I hang out with have no sense of humor." The first book in the series is _Emerald Eyes_, which I just ordered to fill out my Amazon order (giving six people here a discount on it). --KG From gomi at speakeasy.net Fri Jul 18 12:11:30 2003 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 12:11:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Daniel Keys Moran (was: Overcast) In-Reply-To: <628B3BB2.4E4033EB.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > The first book in the series is _Emerald Eyes_, which I just > ordered to fill out my Amazon order (giving six people here > a discount on it). It's back in print?? Those books have been impossible to acquire (over ninety bux for paperback) for years. I have Last Dancer, but read Emerald Eyes on loan and have never seen a copy of Long Run. pe running to the amazon page From davids at kithrup.com Fri Jul 18 12:22:57 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 12:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Daniel Keys Moran (was: Overcast) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Gomi no Sensei wrote: > >On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > >> The first book in the series is _Emerald Eyes_, which I just >> ordered to fill out my Amazon order (giving six people here >> a discount on it). > >It's back in print?? Those books have been impossible to acquire >(over ninety bux for paperback) for years. I have Last Dancer, but >read Emerald Eyes on loan and have never seen a copy of Long Run. > [plug disclaimer="No, I *don't* get paid to do this"] The books are available in trade paperback format from QuietVision: http://www.quietvision.com/ (which is where Amazon is getting them from) The cover for /The Long Run/ is a rather famous NASA composite image of the Earth and the Moon. http://www.kithrup.com/dkm/dkmimg/ The Daniel Keys Moran Semi-Official Web pages are at: http://www.kithrup.com/dkm/ [/plug] From casey at trinityhartford.org Fri Jul 18 12:23:56 2003 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:23:56 -0400 Subject: Daniel Keys Moran (was: Overcast) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Gomi no Sensei wrote: > On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > > The first book in the series is _Emerald Eyes_, which I just > > ordered to fill out my Amazon order (giving six people here > > a discount on it). > > It's back in print?? Those books have been impossible to acquire > (over ninety bux for paperback) for years. I have Last Dancer, > but read Emerald Eyes on loan and have never seen a copy of Long Run. > > pe > running to the amazon page Yes. There are a number of us on this list that are regulars on the DKM list. Dan is indeed in print after much wailing and gnashing of teeth. There were a couple of self-published limited editions, then he did a deal with QuietVision, a small publisher specializing in trade paper and audiobooks. All the old Bantam mmpbs are available. The Last Dancer hasn't sold all the hard cover LE's so it isn't yet avail in Trade. Also available is a book he co-wrote with his sister called Terminal Freedom. Casey From casey at trinityhartford.org Fri Jul 18 12:36:47 2003 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:36:47 -0400 Subject: Daniel Keys Moran (was: Overcast) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David Silberstein [mailto:davids at kithrup.com] [<<=Note Domain -C.] wrote: > [plug disclaimer="No, I *don't* get paid to do this"] [snip] > The Daniel Keys Moran Semi-Official Web pages are at: > > http://www.kithrup.com/dkm/ > > [/plug] The modesty. :) David has done a fine job with this site for a long time. I couldn't type fast enough to get the site into my post before his went out. C. From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Jul 18 12:50:41 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 14:50:41 -0500 Subject: Daniel Keys Moran (was: Overcast) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030718195041.GB31906@infodancer.org> On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 03:36:47PM -0400, Casey Rousseau wrote: > David Silberstein [mailto:davids at kithrup.com] [<<=Note Domain -C.] wrote: > > [plug disclaimer="No, I *don't* get paid to do this"] > [snip] > > The Daniel Keys Moran Semi-Official Web pages are at: > > http://www.kithrup.com/dkm/ > > [/plug] > The modesty. :) > David has done a fine job with this site for a long time. I couldn't type > fast enough to get the site into my post before his went out. Yeah, the DKM gang's all here. I wonder if we could talk Brust and Dan into some kind of collaboration? I suspect their ideas of "what's cool" would coincide. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From dar at horusinc.com Fri Jul 18 13:00:38 2003 From: dar at horusinc.com (dar) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:00:38 -0500 Subject: Daniel Keys Moran (was: Overcast) In-Reply-To: <20030718195041.GB31906@infodancer.org> Message-ID: > On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 03:36:47PM -0400, Casey Rousseau > wrote: > > David Silberstein [mailto:davids at kithrup.com] [<<=Note Domain > -C.] wrote: > > > [plug disclaimer="No, I *don't* get paid to do this"] > > [snip] > > > The Daniel Keys Moran Semi-Official Web pages are at: > > > http://www.kithrup.com/dkm/ > > > [/plug] > > The modesty. :) > > David has done a fine job with this site for a long time. I > couldn't type > > fast enough to get the site into my post before his went out. > > Yeah, the DKM gang's all here. I wonder if we could talk Brust > and Dan into some kind of collaboration? I suspect their ideas > of "what's cool" would coincide. Probably, but I just finished reading _The Star_ in my nice new shiny hardcover and damn... I want _AI War_ in english so bad my teeth ache. David From tsarren at alyra.org Fri Jul 18 13:08:52 2003 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Tsarren) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:08:52 -0500 Subject: Daniel Keys Moran (was: Overcast) In-Reply-To: References: <628B3BB2.4E4033EB.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030718200852.GB11480@Durandal> On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 12:11:30PM -0700, Gomi no Sensei wrote: > > On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > > The first book in the series is _Emerald Eyes_, which I just > > ordered to fill out my Amazon order (giving six people here > > a discount on it). > > It's back in print?? Those books have been impossible to acquire > (over ninety bux for paperback) for years. I have Last Dancer, > but read Emerald Eyes on loan and have never seen a copy of Long Run. Ninety dollars? Yeesh. First time I went looking on Ebay I snagged a copy of TLR for $14, and that was two years ago. Also try half.com; there are several things on there right now: http://half.ebay.com/search/search.jsp?query=1024390993&search_by=contributor_id&meta_id=1&domain_id=1856 Kat From casey at trinityhartford.org Fri Jul 18 13:33:47 2003 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:33:47 -0400 Subject: Daniel Keys Moran (was: Overcast) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: dar wrote: > > Yeah, the DKM gang's all here. I wonder if we could talk Brust > > and Dan into some kind of collaboration? I suspect their ideas > > of "what's cool" would coincide. > > Probably, but I just finished reading _The Star_ in my nice new shiny > hardcover and damn... Their sense of cool would probably have overlaps, but Dan has way too many irons in the fire, and neither of them are all that close to finishing their first humungous series (19 Vlad to 33 CT novels). To the left, maybe a few of Dan's irons would turn into mmpbs eventually if Steve was involved. Steve has at least gotten almost to the halfway mark. :) Casey From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Jul 18 13:37:31 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Daniel Keys Moran (was: Overcast) In-Reply-To: <20030718195041.GB31906@infodancer.org> References: <20030718195041.GB31906@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Skimming the Amazon reviews, I got the impression that Moran excels at plot but not at prose. Is that fair? Does it matter? Is evil-blue-hats-take-over-the-world-giving-the-French-control-of-America really the background? From gomi at speakeasy.net Fri Jul 18 13:39:08 2003 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:39:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Daniel Keys Moran (was: Overcast) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > Skimming the Amazon reviews, I got the impression that Moran excels at > plot but not at prose. Is that fair? Does it matter? Is > evil-blue-hats-take-over-the-world-giving-the-French-control-of-America > really the background? Yep. Fascinatingly prescient, in a boy-we-dodged-that-bullet sort of way. pe From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Jul 18 13:55:35 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:55:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Daniel Keys Moran (was: Overcast) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Skimming the Amazon reviews, I got the impression that Moran excels at > > plot but not at prose. Is that fair? Does it matter? Is > > evil-blue-hats-take-over-the-world-giving-the-French-control-of-America > > really the background? > > Yep. Fascinatingly prescient, in a boy-we-dodged-that-bullet sort of way. There are always more bullets - Hillary may take the White House in 2008 and before you know it first graders will have to learn La Marseillaise. From books at bofh.com Fri Jul 18 14:38:52 2003 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 14:38:52 -0700 Subject: Daniel Keys Moran (was: Overcast) In-Reply-To: <628B3BB2.4E4033EB.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <628B3BB2.4E4033EB.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030718213852.GB16049@bofh.com> > The first book in the series is _Emerald Eyes_, which I just > ordered to fill out my Amazon order (giving six people here > a discount on it). I thought it was _Armageddon Blues_. I'll trust that I am merely mis-remembering. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Jul 18 14:43:28 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:43:28 -0500 Subject: Daniel Keys Moran (was: Overcast) In-Reply-To: References: <20030718195041.GB31906@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20030718214328.GC31906@infodancer.org> On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 01:37:31PM -0700, Philip Hart wrote: > Skimming the Amazon reviews, I got the impression that Moran excels at > plot but not at prose. Is that fair? Does it matter? Is > evil-blue-hats-take-over-the-world-giving-the-French-control-of-America > really the background? Speaking as an admitted fan, Moran *excels*. If he has a weaker point between plot and prose, it's prose (see EE and tLD), but it is never bad -- just not as good as it could be. His best work, IMO, is The Long Run, which is as near to a perfect SF novel as I have ever encountered -- prose, plot, polish, and otherwise. If you want to try out his work, get that one. Some of his other work is readable but not exceptional (ie, Armageddon Blues). -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Jul 18 14:45:43 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:45:43 -0500 Subject: Daniel Keys Moran (was: Overcast) In-Reply-To: <20030718213852.GB16049@bofh.com> References: <628B3BB2.4E4033EB.00048EA6@aol.com> <20030718213852.GB16049@bofh.com> Message-ID: <20030718214543.GD31906@infodancer.org> On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 02:38:52PM -0700, Jot Powers wrote: > > The first book in the series is _Emerald Eyes_, which I just > > ordered to fill out my Amazon order (giving six people here > > a discount on it). > I thought it was _Armageddon Blues_. I'll trust that I am > merely mis-remembering. Armageddon Blues is not quite in the same timeline. The important trilogy is _Emerald Eyes_, _The Long Run_, _The Last Dancer_, followed by (unpublished) _AI War_ and _Lord November_ and whatever other things he's got locked in his head. The first three chapters of AI War are available as a teaser. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From casey at trinityhartford.org Fri Jul 18 15:14:51 2003 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 18:14:51 -0400 Subject: Daniel Keys Moran (was: Overcast) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip Hart wrote: > There are always more bullets - Hillary may take the White House in 2008 > and before you know it first graders will have to learn La Marseillaise. But first graders *should* learn La Marseillaise. It's great music. Casey *Rousseau* :) From warlord at dragon.com Fri Jul 18 15:25:09 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 18:25:09 -0400 Subject: Daniel Keys Moran (was: Overcast) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030718182125.0276f548@pop.dragon.com> At 18:14 7/18/2003 -0400, Casey Rousseau wrote: >Philip Hart wrote: > > There are always more bullets - Hillary may take the White House in 2008 > > and before you know it first graders will have to learn La Marseillaise. > >But first graders *should* learn La Marseillaise. It's great music. > >Casey *Rousseau* > >:) Better check with the French Embassy before you post again. After all, we accept *e-mail* here..... France bans 'e-mail' from vocabulary: http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/ptech/07/18/france.email.ap/index.html W "The height of arrogance is enforced morality." From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Jul 18 15:33:38 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 15:33:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Daniel Keys Moran (was: Overcast) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030718182125.0276f548@pop.dragon.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030718182125.0276f548@pop.dragon.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Warlord wrote: > At 18:14 7/18/2003 -0400, Casey Rousseau wrote: > >Philip Hart wrote: > > > There are always more bullets - Hillary may take the White House in 2008 > > > and before you know it first graders will have to learn La Marseillaise. > > > >But first graders *should* learn La Marseillaise. It's great music. > > > >Casey *Rousseau* > > > >:) > > Better check with the French Embassy before you post again. > After all, we accept *e-mail* here..... > > France bans 'e-mail' from vocabulary: > http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/ptech/07/18/france.email.ap/index.html At least the French still receive email (even though "email" means "enamel" in French) as opposed to the White House, which now requires one to click through half-a-dozen pages and say whether the email is pro-Bush or not... From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Jul 18 15:49:14 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 17:49:14 -0500 Subject: Daniel Keys Moran (was: Overcast) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030718182125.0276f548@pop.dragon.com> Message-ID: <20030718224914.GA535@infodancer.org> On Fri, Jul 18, 2003 at 03:33:38PM -0700, Philip Hart wrote: > On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Warlord wrote: > > At 18:14 7/18/2003 -0400, Casey Rousseau wrote: > > >Philip Hart wrote: > > > > There are always more bullets - Hillary may take the White House in 2008 > > > > and before you know it first graders will have to learn La Marseillaise. > > >But first graders *should* learn La Marseillaise. It's great music. > > Better check with the French Embassy before you post again. > > After all, we accept *e-mail* here..... > > France bans 'e-mail' from vocabulary: > > http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/ptech/07/18/france.email.ap/index.html > At least the French still receive email (even though "email" means > "enamel" in French) as opposed to the White House, which now requires one > to click through half-a-dozen pages and say whether the email is pro-Bush > or not... Hey, it's not like our Fearless Leader doesn't want to hear from us. He's just tired of all the spam, and asked the NSA to implement a filtering solution. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From mneme at io.com Sun Jul 20 12:12:01 2003 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 14:12:01 -0500 Subject: I do not, in fact, have a copy of Lord of Castle Black Message-ID: <16154.59777.183025.700004@eris.io.com> But having -seen- several copies, I can verify that it's been printed. The book exists, now it's only a matter of time before we all have it (and it's in stores and all that :). -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From davids at kithrup.com Sun Jul 20 12:26:03 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 12:26:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I do not, in fact, have a copy of Lord of Castle Black In-Reply-To: <16154.59777.183025.700004@eris.io.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Jul 2003, Joshua Kronengold wrote: > >But having -seen- several copies, I can verify that it's been printed. >The book exists, now it's only a matter of time before we all have it >(and it's in stores and all that :). > And *some* people, who are all properly described by adjectives which I shall not put here since I would no doubt come to regret them after the heat of jealous outrage has passed, have Advance Reading Copies: http://www.steelypips.org/weblog/2003_07_01_archive.php#link_105871335100852331 or also: google.com/groups?selm=o3blhv0754l38homt3j5vfagtfi5cfuvnc at news.verizon.net Bah! From mneme at io.com Sun Jul 20 13:24:34 2003 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 15:24:34 -0500 Subject: I do not, in fact, have a copy of Lord of Castle Black In-Reply-To: References: <16154.59777.183025.700004@eris.io.com> Message-ID: <16154.64130.389024.581121@eris.io.com> David Silberstein writes: >On Sun, 20 Jul 2003, Joshua Kronengold wrote: > >> >>But having -seen- several copies, I can verify that it's been printed. >>The book exists, now it's only a matter of time before we all have it >>(and it's in stores and all that :). >And *some* people, who are all properly described by adjectives which >I shall not put here since I would no doubt come to regret them after >the heat of jealous outrage has passed, have Advance Reading Copies: True; these were the Actual Physical Book, though -- dustjacket, hard cover, and all. :) -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Sun Jul 20 23:17:16 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 06:17:16 +0000 Subject: I do not, in fact, have a copy of Lord of Castle Black Message-ID: Joshua Kronengold wrote: >But having -seen- several copies, I can verify that it's been printed. >The book exists, now it's only a matter of time before we all have it >(and it's in stores and all that :). Little question: Does anyone know if it is hard to find Steve's books in UK? I'll be in Edinburgh on August and I will try to buy it there, as long as it must be easier (and cheaper) than in Barcelona. Iv?n. _________________________________________________________________ Charla con tus amigos en l?nea mediante MSN Messenger: http://messenger.microsoft.com/es From pulmon at comcast.net Mon Jul 21 03:07:07 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 06:07:07 -0400 Subject: I do not, in fact, have a copy of Lord of Castle Black In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1609421D-BB63-11D7-8758-0003938F1608@comcast.net> As a marker, you might try looking at amazon.co.uk, and seeing what they have on their site. Ken On Monday, July 21, 2003, at 02:17 AM, Iv?n Rebollo wrote: > Joshua Kronengold wrote: > >> But having -seen- several copies, I can verify that it's been printed. >> The book exists, now it's only a matter of time before we all have it >> (and it's in stores and all that :). > > Little question: Does anyone know if it is hard to find Steve's books > in UK? I'll be in Edinburgh on August and I will try to buy it there, > as long as it must be easier (and cheaper) than in Barcelona. > > Iv?n. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Charla con tus amigos en l?nea mediante MSN Messenger: > http://messenger.microsoft.com/es > From rick at 404.978.org Mon Jul 21 07:36:51 2003 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 10:36:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: I do not, in fact, have a copy of Lord of Castle Black In-Reply-To: <1609421D-BB63-11D7-8758-0003938F1608@comcast.net> References: <1609421D-BB63-11D7-8758-0003938F1608@comcast.net> Message-ID: <57170.192.168.1.1.1058798211.squirrel@404.978.org> http://whsmith.co.uk/ has 11 entries for Steven Brust, but Lord of Castle Black is not listed. As a note, Terry Goodkind's new book, Naked Empire, comes out in the US today, but is listed with them as August 4th, so I wouldn't be surprised if they will carry it, but will just get it later than here. -Rick Kenneth Gorelick said: > As a marker, you might try looking at amazon.co.uk, and seeing what > they have on their site. > > Ken > > On Monday, July 21, 2003, at 02:17 AM, Iv?n Rebollo wrote: > >> Joshua Kronengold wrote: >> >>> But having -seen- several copies, I can verify that it's been >>> printed. The book exists, now it's only a matter of time before we >>> all have it (and it's in stores and all that :). >> >> Little question: Does anyone know if it is hard to find Steve's books >> in UK? I'll be in Edinburgh on August and I will try to buy it there, >> as long as it must be easier (and cheaper) than in Barcelona. >> >> Iv?n. >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Charla con tus amigos en l?nea mediante MSN Messenger: >> http://messenger.microsoft.com/es From mneme at io.com Mon Jul 21 07:11:17 2003 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 09:11:17 -0500 Subject: I do not, in fact, have a copy of Lord of Castle Black In-Reply-To: <57170.192.168.1.1.1058798211.squirrel@404.978.org> References: <1609421D-BB63-11D7-8758-0003938F1608@comcast.net> <57170.192.168.1.1.1058798211.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: <16155.62597.308455.316681@fnord.io.com> Rick Castello writes: > http://whsmith.co.uk/ has 11 entries for Steven Brust, > but Lord of Castle Black is not listed. It wouldn't be (except as a pre-show) -- that the book exists doesn't mean it's actually in stores yet, just that I saw some copies lying around Tor's offices, ready to be shipped out to a reviewer or something. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From rick at 404.978.org Mon Jul 21 08:40:44 2003 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 11:40:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: I do not, in fact, have a copy of Lord of Castle Black In-Reply-To: <16155.62597.308455.316681@fnord.io.com> References: <1609421D-BB63-11D7-8758-0003938F1608@comcast.net> <57170.192.168.1.1.1058798211.squirrel@404.978.org> <16155.62597.308455.316681@fnord.io.com> Message-ID: <49203.192.168.1.1.1058802044.squirrel@404.978.org> Joshua Kronengold said: > Rick Castello writes: >> http://whsmith.co.uk/ has 11 entries for Steven Brust, >> but Lord of Castle Black is not listed. > > It wouldn't be (except as a pre-show) -- that the book exists doesn't > mean it's actually in stores yet, just that I saw some copies lying > around Tor's offices, ready to be shipped out to a reviewer or > something. Sure, but it *does* appear on the Borders and Amazon sites for pre-sells, so I thought it might be on the WHSmith site too. -Rick From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Jul 23 22:13:17 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:13:17 -0500 Subject: A Minor Collection of Speculations Message-ID: <20030724051317.GA626@infodancer.org> The reader will be aware that the upcoming release of the modest work of historical fiction known to some as _Lord of Castle Black_, inexplicably separated into the second volume of three for reasons no more of interest to me than the minor natterings of patrons about the cost of the very paper upon which I do not currently write, has undoubtedly generated much interest and indeed averice among those readers who are aware of it; and in light of that interest many will have chosen to peruse the first portion of the complete work already in their possession as a means of refreshing their memory and recalling to their minds the events, passions, and tensions of the time to which the esteemed author has done the honor of transporting them. In light of that fact and in appreciation of the synchronicity that finds my own person involved in such an enterprise, and not unmindful of the honor that accompanies such a diversity of personality and interest being focused even for a short period upon a similar matter, indeed nearly an identical one (albeit such a claim not taking into account minor variations of printing), I have taken it upon myself, unworthy though I may be, to share some of the additional nuances and kernels of that which I will call, to be brief, "Paarfi-truth", in order to necessarily distinguish it from that which we call truth in the normal course of our lives and indeed the normal course of history. For it cannot be denied that the esteemed author Paarfi has expressed the sentiment that these notebooks, which we have had occasion to peruse due to the services of the reknowned Brust himself and the generous operations of Glorious Mountain Press, by which I mean what may be more familiarly known as Tor, are in fact a work if not of fiction than perhaps one in the form of a notebook or workbook detailing a minor portion of history in order to faciliate the construction of a much larger and even more impressive, though presently insubstantial, work. As such we must wonder whether events, as described in these notebooks, bear the relation to absolute fact that the events depicted in the much larger work, after all necessary research was in fact completed, would have demonstrated. Indeed, certain commentators have brought to light a small number of supposed contradictions between the notebooks of Paarfi, a noted historian, and the autobiographical ramblings of one "Vlad Taltos", a Jhereg of questionable means and even more questionable morality, and by his own admission one who would refuse an honorable duel in favor of a knife in an alleyway. In my effort to understand and resolve these discrepencies, without meaning to imply or create any manner of blemish upon either the noted historian or the, ah, surely quite tolerant assassin, and in making use of the noted analogies to the works of one Dumas, likewise a publisher of historical accounts drawn >from notebooks, whose existance I have chosen for the sake of brevity neither to question nor impugn, I have come to the following conclusions: 1) In that the character of Milady in Dumas did not exist in the original source works; 2) In that the character role of antagonist within the framework of _The Pheonix Guards_ is filled by an analogy of Milady, whom I shall refer to as Milord; 3) In that the character role of antagonist within the framework of _20 years after_ is taken by "Son of Milady"; 4) In that the character role of antagonist within the framework of _500 Years After_ is taken by a character whom speculation indicates could plausibly be described as "Daughter of Milord"; 5) As the role of antagonist for the heroes in _The Paths of the Dead_ is filled by a character named Orlaan; 6) As the actions of this Orlaan demonstrate a congruence with the character previously known as Grita, aka Daughter of Milord; 7) As the actions, possessions, and a certain coincidence of names imply a congruence with a particular Athyra wizard who shall go unnamed, but who takes a prominent role in the adventures of one "Vlad Taltos"; 8) As the unnamed character is gyaself a powerful wizard, worthy of a certain amount of respect and wariness; 10) And as the unnamed character might well have objected to his portrayal as a villian; 11) As the dramatic nature of the works provides an opportunity for a certain symmetry of gender; that is, 12) That the character of Milady is taken by one Milord; 13) and the character of Son of Milady is taken by one Daughter of Milord; 14) and that the interests of continuity demand a shared antagonist; 15) I conclude that the character of Grita, aka Daughter of Milord, and indeed the character of Milord as well, are fictional; that is, inserted by the author or translator for dramatic effect and to impose a sense of unified opposition and generate tension within the framework of the more limited perspective offered by these minor notebooks when considered along rather than as part of the completed work; 16) I further conclude that the character of Orlaan was adapted >from the historical character who shall remain unnamed despite rumors of his demise; 17) And finally, I conclude that the purpose of this adaptation was to provide dramatic continuity from the original two works, while being a transparent strategam to evade criticism from less popular historians who would prefer the strict confines of actual events in the safe obscurity of their papers, whereas a more publically known figure must by necessity be more circumspect in his treatment of the powerful. In summary, the character of Grita never existed, but was inserted by Paarfi as a dramatic device. The character of Loraan, whom we encounter while following Vlad, fills the historical role of Orlaan, and while Paarfi is aware of this, he chooses (perhaps for reasons suggesting a most personal fear for his safety) to alter the gender and name of the character in order to provide a continuing role for his fictional antagonist Grita. I like this explanation much better than "Ooops". Of course, the next book out may very well demolish the whole theory. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From davids at kithrup.com Wed Jul 23 23:42:45 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 23:42:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3000 words on Roger Zelazny Message-ID: Steve Brust, in his weblog for 2003-07-17, says: ] I've been asked to do an introduction to a collection ] of short stories by Roger Zelazny. I'm more than a little ] flattered and honored. But I have no bloody clue what to ] say. No one wants to read three thousand words of, "But. like, ] he's really good!" I have this terrible urge to call Neil ] Gaiman and say, "Here. You write it." Well, you could, perhaps, describe some of the tropes that run through his works, like his heros possessing near-supernatural strength, in many of the stories. Or you could point out that there will be all of this action-adventure stuff going on, but suddenly there will be transitions to these paragraphs of near lyric beauty. Or you could talk about the playfulness that is in even his serious stories, or his way of taking a silly idea and just *running* with it, spinning out a story like a stage magician who will just keep pulling scarves from nowhere. Or, you could channel Zelazny, and write what *he* might have said about his own works. Hmm. Who is the publisher? What stories are in this collection? I am curious to know if there is something I haven't read. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Jul 24 00:58:38 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:58:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3000 words on Roger Zelazny In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Three thousand words in praise of RZ - all SKZB has to do is write the truth for 10 pages (I assume the editor isn't looking for, Here's the first ten pages of A Rose For Ecclesiastes: I was busy translating one of my _Madrigals Macabre_ into Martian on the morning I was found acceptable. The intercom had buzzed briefly, and I dropped my pencil and flipped on the toggle in a single motion. "Mister G," piped Morton's youthful contralto, "the old man says I should `get hold of that damned conceited rhymer` right away, and send him to his cabin. Since there's only one damned conceited rhymer..." "Let not ambition mock thy useful toil." I cut him off. etc. - taken from a Russian site on the web that's probably violating copyright - but presumably just this much is fair use...) In SKZB's boots, I think I'd say: RZ gave me a huge push at the beginning of my career and I'm saddened but honored to assist in a small way in the completion of his career, the more so because he was interested in closure (citing _Isle Of The Dead_, _Eye Of Cat_, "24 Views of Mt. Fuji, by Hokusai"). I'd find a better word than "closure" because I'm SKZB. I'd riff on his views of fate and destiny and recurrence. I'd write about the influence of Dumas in his work - how well he could describe a duel and how colorful his worlds are - how entertaining his work is. I'd then turn to how interested he was in religion and philosophy. I'd assert that the above two points make him one of the most important SF writers of last century. Then I'd try to put his short stories into some context in terms of his novels, because the random reader is more likely to know the latter, and maybe I'd write briefly about the concerns of the stories in this collection. I'd quote him a lot, because it's scholarly, because it takes up space, and because it's RZ. I certainly wouldn't pay attention to what random fans of RZ think I should write, because my insight's deeper, as shown by my successful integration of RZ's influence into my work. Anyway, aside from maybe Tom Disch (whose book of criticism, _The Castle of Indolence_, I heartily recommend to anyone who reads contemporary poetry), or possibly the Dean of Pamlar University, if gya reads English, I can't conceive of anyone better to write about RZ than SKZB, and it suits my sense of justice. On Wed, 23 Jul 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > Steve Brust, in his weblog for 2003-07-17, says: > > ] I've been asked to do an introduction to a collection > ] of short stories by Roger Zelazny. I'm more than a little > ] flattered and honored. But I have no bloody clue what to > ] say. No one wants to read three thousand words of, "But. like, > ] he's really good!" I have this terrible urge to call Neil > ] Gaiman and say, "Here. You write it." > > Well, you could, perhaps, describe some of the tropes that run > through his works, like his heros possessing near-supernatural > strength, in many of the stories. Or you could point out that > there will be all of this action-adventure stuff going on, but > suddenly there will be transitions to these paragraphs of near > lyric beauty. Or you could talk about the playfulness that is > in even his serious stories, or his way of taking a silly idea > and just *running* with it, spinning out a story like a stage > magician who will just keep pulling scarves from nowhere. Or, > you could channel Zelazny, and write what *he* might have said > about his own works. > > Hmm. Who is the publisher? What stories are in this collection? > I am curious to know if there is something I haven't read. > > From bio_phy at hotmail.com Thu Jul 24 08:59:17 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 10:59:17 -0500 Subject: 3000 words on Roger Zelazny Message-ID: I think I'd be tempted to wing it and write something from the heart. I don't like poetry but I loved poetic Sci-Fi from Zelazny. He wrote better >from the First Person than most anybody I can think of. I loved the way he could give a compelling picture of someone with only three descriptive bits. He was somebody fascinated with power and humanity and really pushing the envelope. Instead of planning something, I'd just spend a couple of days writing some free-form thoughts and see what comes out. Zelazny was the one who really *got* To Reign In Hell and I suspect there is some reverse insight among common thinkers. While this appears to be daunting, I think SKZB has a better shot than most of pulling this off (with apologies to Gaiman). johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com forum: http://forum.instagiber.com/index.php?h=1&pf=268 stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ >Three thousand words in praise of RZ - all SKZB has to do is write the >truth for 10 pages (I assume the editor isn't looking for, Here's the >first ten pages of A Rose For Ecclesiastes: > I was busy translating one of my _Madrigals Macabre_ into Martian >on the morning I was found acceptable. The intercom had buzzed >briefly, and I dropped my pencil and flipped on the toggle in a single >motion. > "Mister G," piped Morton's youthful contralto, "the old man says I >should `get hold of that damned conceited rhymer` right away, and send >him to his cabin. Since there's only one damned conceited rhymer..." > "Let not ambition mock thy useful toil." I cut him off. >etc. - taken from a Russian site on the web that's probably violating >copyright - but presumably just this much is fair use...) > >In SKZB's boots, I think I'd say: RZ gave me a huge push at the beginning >of my career and I'm saddened but honored to assist in a small way in the >completion of his career, the more so because he was interested in closure >(citing _Isle Of The Dead_, _Eye Of Cat_, "24 Views of Mt. Fuji, by >Hokusai"). I'd find a better word than "closure" because I'm SKZB. I'd >riff on his views of fate and destiny and recurrence. I'd write about the >influence of Dumas in his work - how well he could describe a duel and how >colorful his worlds are - how entertaining his work is. I'd then turn to >how interested he was in religion and philosophy. I'd assert that the >above two points make him one of the most important SF writers of last >century. Then I'd try to put his short stories into some context in terms >of his novels, because the random reader is more likely to know the >latter, and maybe I'd write briefly about the concerns of the stories in >this collection. I'd quote him a lot, because it's scholarly, because it >takes up space, and because it's RZ. I certainly wouldn't pay attention >to what random fans of RZ think I should write, because my insight's >deeper, as shown by my successful integration of RZ's influence into my >work. > > >Anyway, aside from maybe Tom Disch (whose book of criticism, _The Castle >of Indolence_, I heartily recommend to anyone who reads contemporary >poetry), or possibly the Dean of Pamlar University, if gya reads English, >I can't conceive of anyone better to write about RZ than SKZB, and it >suits my sense of justice. > > > > >On Wed, 23 Jul 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > > > Steve Brust, in his weblog for 2003-07-17, says: > > > > ] I've been asked to do an introduction to a collection > > ] of short stories by Roger Zelazny. I'm more than a little > > ] flattered and honored. But I have no bloody clue what to > > ] say. No one wants to read three thousand words of, "But. like, > > ] he's really good!" I have this terrible urge to call Neil > > ] Gaiman and say, "Here. You write it." > > > > Well, you could, perhaps, describe some of the tropes that run > > through his works, like his heros possessing near-supernatural > > strength, in many of the stories. Or you could point out that > > there will be all of this action-adventure stuff going on, but > > suddenly there will be transitions to these paragraphs of near > > lyric beauty. Or you could talk about the playfulness that is > > in even his serious stories, or his way of taking a silly idea > > and just *running* with it, spinning out a story like a stage > > magician who will just keep pulling scarves from nowhere. Or, > > you could channel Zelazny, and write what *he* might have said > > about his own works. > > > > Hmm. Who is the publisher? What stories are in this collection? > > I am curious to know if there is something I haven't read. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Jul 24 12:16:57 2003 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 15:16:57 EDT Subject: 3000 words on Roger Zelazny Message-ID: <1ca.e4aeccc.2c518aa9@aol.com> on 7/24/03 bio_phy at hotmail.com wrote: -While this appears to be daunting, I think SKZB has a better shot than most at pulling this off (with apologies to Gaiman). SKZB will do a fine job, but I believe, as I know others do, that Neil would do a fine job also. What is important here is the honor of being asked to do it. I also believe that the hardest part of the task is not actually listing his numerous accomplishments, but expressing the gratitude of the science fiction/fantasy community in a way that doesn't sound sappy. John D. Barbato, OD From bio_phy at hotmail.com Thu Jul 24 12:20:47 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 14:20:47 -0500 Subject: 3000 words on Roger Zelazny Message-ID: I was thinking about that myself - I don't know which would be harder, filling 3000 words, or keeping it to /just/ 3000 words. This is the place where it would be great to have a personal anedote to share with the world if you had one. That works great for those that Con-ned with Roger but poses a greater problem for all the rest who knew him only through his writings. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com forum: http://forum.instagiber.com/index.php?h=1&pf=268 stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ >From: Randi128 at aol.com >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: 3000 words on Roger Zelazny >Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 15:16:57 EDT > >on 7/24/03 bio_phy at hotmail.com wrote: >-While this appears to be daunting, I think SKZB has a better shot than >most >at pulling this off (with apologies to Gaiman). > >SKZB will do a fine job, but I believe, as I know others do, that Neil >would >do a fine job also. What is important here is the honor of being asked to >do >it. I also believe that the hardest part of the task is not actually >listing >his numerous accomplishments, but expressing the gratitude of the science >fiction/fantasy community in a way that doesn't sound sappy. > >John D. Barbato, OD _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From mam at theworld.com Thu Jul 24 14:27:14 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:27:14 -0400 Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ -- Issola spoilers In-Reply-To: <002101c34ace$126911e0$d916fea9@ananda> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jul 2003, Timothy Nelson wrote: #I get the impression that the Serioli don't have an exactly...linear time #sense. #(This is of course assuming Draegeran time is linear -- there is some #credibility to the cycle-as-time-loop theory) That would be an interesting counterpart / opposite / parallel to the Jenoine's very non-human* relation to space. (*For this purpose, Easterners and Dragaerans can be considered the same.) -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mam at theworld.com Thu Jul 24 14:28:36 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:28:36 -0400 Subject: Concerning next Vlad Talto novel... In-Reply-To: <20030716035216.GB3702@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jul 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: #On Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 07:57:30PM +0000, Steve Hubbell wrote: #> Spoiler??? #> #> #> #> #> #> #> #> #> #> #> #> #> #> #> #> #> #> #> #> #> #> This thought just occurred to me... now that Vlad has Godslayer which has #> Lady Teldra's personality/conscienceness/soul/whatever, will Vlad be #> communicating back and forth with Godslayer, and if so, will it be a three #> way conversation with Loiosh participating/contributing? # #Prediction: Loiosh will be jealous, and sulk. But in life she was so nice to him (of course). She'd probably still try not to offend him, and maybe influence V similarly. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mam at theworld.com Thu Jul 24 14:35:09 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:35:09 -0400 Subject: everything can be found in Paarfi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Philip Hart wrote: #I was unclear re "lineage" - I meant, how is it that Rollondar is e'Drien #but Adron e'Kieron. What you say about "cousin" is full of justice. #But note that Paarfi refers to Molric as Adron's nephew on pg 278. #Perhaps this is an odd error by Paarfi; another option is that Dragaeran #has finer discrimination of relationships than English and the translator #got confused... ISTR that somewhere we hear that lineage goes through the same-sex parent: mother to daughter, father to son. In that case, two close relatives could easily be of different lineages; e.g. I and my first cousin, whose mother was my father's sister. I'd be of the lineage of our shared grandfather, while he would get his lineage from his father, who is no relation to me except by marriage (my uncle by marriage). -- Mark A. Mandel From sraun at fireopal.org Thu Jul 24 15:08:46 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 17:08:46 -0500 Subject: 3000 words on Roger Zelazny In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030724220846.GA21545@fireopal.org> On Wed, Jul 23, 2003 at 11:42:45PM -0700, David Silberstein wrote: > Steve Brust, in his weblog for 2003-07-17, says: > > ] I've been asked to do an introduction to a collection > ] of short stories by Roger Zelazny. I'm more than a little > ] flattered and honored. But I have no bloody clue what to > ] say. No one wants to read three thousand words of, "But. like, > ] he's really good!" I have this terrible urge to call Neil > ] Gaiman and say, "Here. You write it." > > Hmm. Who is the publisher? What stories are in this collection? > I am curious to know if there is something I haven't read. I'll bet this is it. "Manna From Heaven" To quote the adverteasing: 5 uncollected AMBER short stories . . . plus the Prologue to the limited edition of The Trump of Doom . . . plus 6 more uncollected works . . . plus a few surprises! http://www.fantasticbookclub.com/ -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org From usagigoya at hotmail.com Thu Jul 24 15:52:59 2003 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 22:52:59 +0000 Subject: 3000 words on Roger Zelazny Message-ID: >From: David Silberstein >Subject: 3000 words on Roger Zelazny >Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 23:42:45 -0700 (PDT) > > >Hmm. Who is the publisher? What stories are in this collection? >I am curious to know if there is something I haven't read. > I am not sure about this but I read a posting by someone claiming to have gotten permission to publish a collection of RZ short stories, including the six hard to find Amber short stories... here is his info in his own words... I don't know if this is even the same project that SKZB was approached concerning... May 1, 2003 Big news today folks. After a long struggle, I have purchased the rights to publish a hardback collection of Roger's short stories. I've got a lineup of stories set, but if you spot something that you think absolutely needs to be in there, . I don't know how long it will take me to get it to the printer, how much it will cost, etc., but I'm working on it. For those in a hurry, all of the Amber short stories will be in there. I'll say it again: all of the Amber short stories will be in the collection. It is tentatively titled: Mana from Heaven. "'Kjwalll'kje'k'koothailll'kje'k" "Angel, Dark Angel" "Blue Horse, Dancing Mountain" "Come Back to the Killing Ground, Alice, My Love" "Come to Me not in Winter's White" (with Harlan Ellison) "Coming to a Cord" "Corrida" "The Deadliest Game" "Epithalamium" "The Furies" "Godson" "Hall of Mirrors" "The House of the Hanged Man" "Kalifriki of the Thread" "Mana from Heaven" "The New Pleasure" "Prince of the Powers of this World" "Prolog" "The Salesman's Tale" "The Shroudling & the Guisel" "Stowaway" http://www.roger-zelazny.com/index.shtml A last note, personnally, Roger Zelazny is the only author other than Steven Brust whom I've enjoyed enough to repeatedly reread over the years... Lord Of Light is AWESOME! I just wish Roger had finished the Changeling trilogy... _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From casey at trinityhartford.org Thu Jul 24 18:31:20 2003 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 21:31:20 -0400 Subject: 3000 words on Roger Zelazny In-Reply-To: <1ca.e4aeccc.2c518aa9@aol.com> Message-ID: <001801c3524c$73f230b0$a902a8c0@Prophnt2.local> John D. Barbato, OD wrote: > I also believe that the hardest part of the task is not > actually listing his numerous accomplishments, but expressing > the gratitude of the science fiction/fantasy community in a > way that doesn't sound sappy. Aw, shucks. Steve, feel free to sound sappy. From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Fri Jul 25 00:25:11 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 07:25:11 +0000 Subject: everything can be found in Paarfi Message-ID: Mark A. Mandel wrote: >ISTR that somewhere we hear that lineage goes through the same-sex >parent: mother to daughter, father to son. But Aliera and Adron are of the same lineage, aren't they? Although Aliera E'Verra doesn't sound bad. _________________________________________________________________ Localiza y ponte en contacto con tus antiguos compa?eros de clase en MSN Compa?eros. http://mipasado.msn.es/ From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Jul 25 00:35:03 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 00:35:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: everything can be found in Paarfi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, Iv?n Rebollo wrote: > Mark A. Mandel wrote: > > >ISTR that somewhere we hear that lineage goes through the same-sex > >parent: mother to daughter, father to son. > > But Aliera and Adron are of the same lineage, aren't they? Although Aliera > E'Verra doesn't sound bad. Maybe it sounds good in Spanish - it sort of grates on these ears - though Alerra e'Verra or Aliera e' Viera would admittedly be worse. Anyway, Aliera doesn't actually have any Verran genes, does she? In fact she sort of seems to have some Phoenix genes, what with the hair and the rebirth... From books at bofh.com Fri Jul 25 01:42:27 2003 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 01:42:27 -0700 Subject: everything can be found in Paarfi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030725084227.GA8047@bofh.com> > >ISTR that somewhere we hear that lineage goes through the same-sex > >parent: mother to daughter, father to son. > > But Aliera and Adron are of the same lineage, aren't they? Although Aliera > E'Verra doesn't sound bad. Ok, here is what I wrote about Devera: >Devera's father is Kieron. This makes for an interesting family tree. >If you look at it from a physical perspective, Adron's ancestor is >Kieron. Adron is Aliera's father and Devera is Aliera's daughter. >So, since Devera is the daughter to her grandfather's ancestor, she's >probably her own cousin. It gets even more confusing if you look at it >from a soul perspective, as Aliera is Kieron's brother, which would >make Aliera her mother and aunt, and Kieron her father and uncle. Aliera's soul is Adron's NgreatAunt (which is really a cousin) although Aliera is Adron's daughter. I'm convinced that Steven does this just so that anyone trying to make a family tree will be immediately recognizable at some Con as the the "Crazy Haired Cross-eyed Guy". Personally, I chalk this up to things like "Time in the Paths" and other things that are ambiguous, and are not meant to be understood rationally, by either the reader or the author. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Jul 25 01:58:06 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 01:58:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: apropos of nothing In-Reply-To: <20030725084227.GA8047@bofh.com> References: <20030725084227.GA8047@bofh.com> Message-ID: This week's New Yorker magazine has two articles which reflect on discussions in this list: there's an essay by Oliver Sacks about the reaction to a paper he wrote about blindness based on one person's experience; and there's a book review by Louis Menand in part about the difference between totalitarianism and authoritarianism (a.k.a t&a in the relevant circles). He talks about Arendt's idea of "the mob" and "the masses". The former is composed of "disempowered aristocrats, disillusioned intellectuals, and gangsters." I wonder if there are any disillusioned intellectuals in the Jhereg. Arendt supposedly saw the mob using the masses as troops in establishing totalitarian states; the Orb would be an ideal tool in setting up such a regime, esp. under the Tortaalik-was-just-dumb-hypothesis of the Orb-as-TIA theory. From pulmon at comcast.net Fri Jul 25 04:50:13 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 07:50:13 -0400 Subject: everything can be found in Paarfi In-Reply-To: <20030725084227.GA8047@bofh.com> Message-ID: <26ECA160-BE96-11D7-853E-0003938F1608@comcast.net> On Friday, July 25, 2003, at 04:42 AM, Jot Powers wrote: >>> ISTR that somewhere we hear that lineage goes through the same-sex >>> parent: mother to daughter, father to son. >> >> But Aliera and Adron are of the same lineage, aren't they? Although >> Aliera >> E'Verra doesn't sound bad. > > Ok, here is what I wrote about Devera: > >> Devera's father is Kieron. This makes for an interesting family tree. >> If you look at it from a physical perspective, Adron's ancestor is >> Kieron. Adron is Aliera's father and Devera is Aliera's daughter. >> So, since Devera is the daughter to her grandfather's ancestor, she's >> probably her own cousin. It gets even more confusing if you look at it >> from a soul perspective, as Aliera is Kieron's brother, which would >> make Aliera her mother and aunt, and Kieron her father and uncle. > > Aliera's soul is Adron's NgreatAunt (which is really a cousin) > although Aliera is Adron's daughter. > > I'm convinced that Steven does this just so that anyone trying > to make a family tree will be immediately recognizable at some > Con as the the "Crazy Haired Cross-eyed Guy". > > Personally, I chalk this up to things like "Time in the Paths" > and other things that are ambiguous, and are not meant to be > understood rationally, by either the reader or the author. > > -Jot > -- > Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ > "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" > -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan Why does this remind me of the Kentucky Star Wars joke--"Luke, I am your father...and your uncle! > From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Fri Jul 25 08:05:46 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 15:05:46 +0000 Subject: everything can be found in Paarfi Message-ID: >From: Philip Hart >To: Iv?n Rebollo >CC: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: everything can be found in Paarfi >Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 00:35:03 -0700 (PDT) > > > >On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, Iv?n Rebollo wrote: > > > Mark A. Mandel wrote: > > > > >ISTR that somewhere we hear that lineage goes through the same-sex > > >parent: mother to daughter, father to son. > > > > But Aliera and Adron are of the same lineage, aren't they? Although >Aliera > > E'Verra doesn't sound bad. > >Maybe it sounds good in Spanish - it sort of grates on these ears - though >Alerra e'Verra or Aliera e' Viera would admittedly be worse. In fact, it neither sounds good in Spanish, but regarding my own surname I must say that there are worse names that it. Aniway, even if does not sound good I think it should sound cool in Adrilankha. >Anyway, Aliera doesn't actually have any Verran genes, does she? It is a really interesting question. I do not want to enter in the relationship between Adron and Verra 'cause I do not want to wonder about the scars in Adron's back. Anyway, if Aliera does not have any genetic heritage (mispelled?) from Verra, which kind of relationship has? _________________________________________________________________ Charla con tus amigos en l?nea mediante MSN Messenger: http://messenger.microsoft.com/es From harvester64 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 25 10:11:19 2003 From: harvester64 at yahoo.com (Harvester) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 10:11:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Aliera's Goddess genes (was: Re: everything can be found in Paarfi) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030725171119.21726.qmail@web40904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Iv?n Rebollo wrote: >>Anyway, Aliera doesn't actually have any Verran genes, does she? > >It is a really interesting question. I do not want to enter in the >relationship between Adron and Verra 'cause I do not want to wonder >about the scars in Adron's back. Anyway, if Aliera does not have any >genetic heritage (mispelled?) from Verra, which kind of relationship >has? Hmmm...... seems that she does have some genetic heritage from Verra. Her blood has god/goddess characteristics -- it is for this reason that she was naturally able to leave the Paths though Morrolan could not (_Taltos_, mmpb p. 162). Heh, Morrolan would still be there if he hadn't had a last-minute goddess blood transfusion.... Just a thought.... - Donald Seagraves ===== "On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." -- Charles Babbage __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From mam at theworld.com Fri Jul 25 10:56:00 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:56:00 -0400 Subject: everything can be found in Paarfi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, Iv?n Rebollo wrote: #Mark A. Mandel wrote: # #>ISTR that somewhere we hear that lineage goes through the same-sex #>parent: mother to daughter, father to son. # #But Aliera and Adron are of the same lineage, aren't they? Although Aliera #E'Verra doesn't sound bad. Well, as I was going to add but forgot, Aliera is obviously an exception. Or maybe I misremembered entirely and it ISN'T father>son and mother>daughter. Can anyone help on that? -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From den at epia.monger.net Fri Jul 25 11:24:08 2003 From: den at epia.monger.net (Dennis Higbee) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:24:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: everything can be found in Paarfi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, Iv?n Rebollo wrote: > > #Mark A. Mandel wrote: > # > #>ISTR that somewhere we hear that lineage goes through the same-sex > #>parent: mother to daughter, father to son. > Well, as I was going to add but forgot, Aliera is obviously an > exception. > Or maybe I misremembered entirely and it ISN'T father>son and > mother>daughter. Can anyone help on that? I thought it was the genetic inheritance that was gender-based--i.e., the son has the traits of the father and the daughter those of the mother. -Dennis From davids at kithrup.com Fri Jul 25 12:16:16 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 12:16:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: everything can be found in Paarfi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, Dennis Higbee wrote: >On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > >> On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, Iv?n Rebollo wrote: >> >> #Mark A. Mandel wrote: >> # >> #>ISTR that somewhere we hear that lineage goes through the >> #>same-sex parent: mother to daughter, father to son. I don't recall anything specifically said about how lineage is determined. It would be nice if we could see it expressed canonically, but I suspect that for most Dragaerans & Easterners, it is either totally obvious, or completely uninteresting, and will thus not be mentioned. Of course, Vlad might meet up with a geneaologist in /Lyorn/, and hear the whole thing spelled out in excruciating detail whether he wants to hear it or not. >> Well, as I was going to add but forgot, Aliera is obviously an >> exception. >> Or maybe I misremembered entirely and it ISN'T father>son and >> mother>daughter. Can anyone help on that? > >I thought it was the genetic inheritance that was gender-based--i.e., >the son has the traits of the father and the daughter those of the >mother. > What I recall is that *character* goes from mother to daughter & from father to son - and that sounds like a suspiciously non-rigorous folk interpretation of genetics. I don't think it's said by someone we were meant to take seriously on the matter, i.e., Sethra or Aliera herself speaking ex cathedra on genetics. I think I've found the textev for that, by the way: /The Phoenix Guards/, Chapter 10 ("Tazendra's History"), page 99 in the PB: "Oh, but come Tazendra, she must have been bold enough for two Dzurlords; where else could you have gotten such courage? For we all know that character passes from mother to daughter, just as from father to son. Cracks in the Orb, haven't the Dragon wizards proved it?" I am not 100% confident that Khaavren is accurately stating what it is that the Dragon wizards proved, assuming he did not in fact make it up >from whole cloth in order bolster his attempts to draw Tazendra out. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Jul 25 13:33:36 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:33:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: everything can be found in Paarfi In-Reply-To: <20030725171119.21726.qmail@web40904.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030725171119.21726.qmail@web40904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Note that in _FHYA_ Khaavren and Daro talk about having boys and girls switching their parents' characteristics - and so does Kiera at the end of _Orca_. Note also that the get-out-of-the-Paths characteristic must be complex, or Vlad could have given Aliera's blood to Morollan, and otherwise Morollan wouldn't have gotten a buzz... From John.Tennyson at McKesson.com Fri Jul 25 13:47:43 2003 From: John.Tennyson at McKesson.com (Tennyson, John) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 16:47:43 -0400 Subject: everything can be found in Paarfi Message-ID: <3FF188E90615D21194BE00805F6F41F406CF117E@amhexc01ntms.amherst.hboc.com> Maybe, but remember that Vlad was not in top mental form... And didn't know that Aliera was Verra's daughter at that point. He may not have thought to give Aliera's blood to Morollan... He barely remembered the vial to begin with. -----Original Message----- From: Philip Hart [ mailto:philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU ] Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 4:34 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: everything can be found in Paarfi Note that in _FHYA_ Khaavren and Daro talk about having boys and girls switching their parents' characteristics - and so does Kiera at the end of _Orca_. Note also that the get-out-of-the-Paths characteristic must be complex, or Vlad could have given Aliera's blood to Morollan, and otherwise Morollan wouldn't have gotten a buzz... From John.Tennyson at McKesson.com Fri Jul 25 13:53:15 2003 From: John.Tennyson at McKesson.com (Tennyson, John) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 16:53:15 -0400 Subject: everything can be found in Paarfi Message-ID: <3FF188E90615D21194BE00805F6F41F406CF117F@amhexc01ntms.amherst.hboc.com> In fact now that I think about it, (working from memory), he implies that he thinks that it is the fountain that she drank out of that lets her get out... And the dizzyness/buzz could have been caused by the effect of the paths themselves, not necessarily the blood as I think I remember Aliera having the same feeling. -----Original Message----- From: Tennyson, John [ mailto:John.Tennyson at McKesson.com ] Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 4:48 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: RE: everything can be found in Paarfi Maybe, but remember that Vlad was not in top mental form... And didn't know that Aliera was Verra's daughter at that point. He may not have thought to give Aliera's blood to Morollan... He barely remembered the vial to begin with. -----Original Message----- From: Philip Hart [ mailto:philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU < mailto:philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU > ] Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 4:34 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: everything can be found in Paarfi Note that in _FHYA_ Khaavren and Daro talk about having boys and girls switching their parents' characteristics - and so does Kiera at the end of _Orca_. Note also that the get-out-of-the-Paths characteristic must be complex, or Vlad could have given Aliera's blood to Morollan, and otherwise Morollan wouldn't have gotten a buzz... From mam at theworld.com Fri Jul 25 15:17:08 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 18:17:08 -0400 Subject: everything can be found in Paarfi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, David Silberstein wrote: #>> #Mark A. Mandel wrote: #>> # #>> #>ISTR that somewhere we hear that lineage goes through the #>> #>same-sex parent: mother to daughter, father to son. #I think I've found the textev for that, by the way: /The Phoenix #Guards/, Chapter 10 ("Tazendra's History"), page 99 in the PB: # # "Oh, but come Tazendra, she must have been bold enough # for two Dzurlords; where else could you have gotten such # courage? For we all know that character passes from # mother to daughter, just as from father to son. Cracks in # the Orb, haven't the Dragon wizards proved it?" # #I am not 100% confident that Khaavren is accurately stating what it is #that the Dragon wizards proved, assuming he did not in fact make it up #from whole cloth in order bolster his attempts to draw Tazendra out. That sounds like what I remember, and is clearly not lineage. But "making it up from whole cloth in order bolster his attempts to draw Tazendra out" doesn't sound to me consistent with Khaavren's honest character. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From davids at kithrup.com Fri Jul 25 16:33:27 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 16:33:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: everything can be found in Paarfi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > >But "making it up from whole cloth in order bolster his attempts to >draw Tazendra out" doesn't sound to me consistent with Khaavren's >honest character. > Well, there is lying with intent to deceive, and there is stuff that a usually honest yet passionate young person might well throw in to add verisimilitude, excitement, and local color to an otherwise bald and insipid narrative. Especially when slightly drunk, which he is at the time. Khaavren would almost certainly avoid the first, but I think he does the latter now and then during the coure of /The Phoenix Guards/. Of course, we could always blame it on Paarfi. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Jul 25 16:41:43 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 16:41:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: everything can be blamed on Paarfi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Of course, we could always blame it on Paarfi. Just wanted to fix the subject line. From TimN at rcn.com Fri Jul 25 17:11:12 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 20:11:12 -0400 Subject: everything can be blamed on Paarfi References: Message-ID: <002701c3530a$6ccda260$d916fea9@ananda> Poor Paarfi. A true genius, a great historian, who composes prose fit to bring tears to the eyes of Verra. With fame and fortune come, naturally, those who would hurl refuse at his -- undoubtedly selfless -- work, seeking to bring him pain in exchange for his tireless efforts to educate us as to the state of the empire in the latter part of the reign of His Imperial Magesty Tortaalik and the Interregnum. Paarfi, we salute you! From TimN at rcn.com Mon Jul 28 14:22:15 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 17:22:15 -0400 Subject: Everything can be blamed on Vlad -- or, which house? References: Message-ID: <001b01c3554e$5226f240$d916fea9@ananda> If there will eventually be 17 Vladiad books, as there must be (at least in the author's mind!), which house is most likely to be left out to include "Taltos"? From ambyrglow at softhome.net Mon Jul 28 14:24:03 2003 From: ambyrglow at softhome.net (Claire Rojstaczer) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 17:24:03 -0400 Subject: Everything can be blamed on Vlad -- or, which house? In-Reply-To: <001b01c3554e$5226f240$d916fea9@ananda> References: <001b01c3554e$5226f240$d916fea9@ananda> Message-ID: >If there will eventually be 17 Vladiad books, as there must be (at least in >the author's mind!), which house is most likely to be left out to include >"Taltos"? I believe the goal is 19 -- the 17 houses, Taltos, and The Last Contract. Whether or not it will ever be reached is, of course, a different matter. Claire From zizban at adelphia.net Mon Jul 28 14:25:43 2003 From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 17:25:43 -0400 Subject: Everything can be blamed on Vlad -- or, which house? In-Reply-To: <001b01c3554e$5226f240$d916fea9@ananda> References: <001b01c3554e$5226f240$d916fea9@ananda> Message-ID: <20030728172543369366.GyazMail.zizban@adelphia.net> Steve has numerous times that there will be 19 Vlad books, a first one, Taltos, one for each House, then a final one, The last Contract. If this assumes he doesn't die or get bored of the series first. On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 17:22:15 -0400, Timothy Nelson wrote: > If there will eventually be 17 Vladiad books, as there must be (at least in > the author's mind!), which house is most likely to be left out to include > "Taltos"? > From TimN at rcn.com Mon Jul 28 15:19:54 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 18:19:54 -0400 Subject: Everything can be blamed on Vlad -- or, which house? References: <001b01c3554e$5226f240$d916fea9@ananda> <20030728172543369366.GyazMail.zizban@adelphia.net> Message-ID: <001101c35556$5ff8dfc0$d916fea9@ananda> Gah... *not* 17? My hardwired Cycle-indoctrinated brain is going to implode. Damn you, Steve! ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Turkel To: Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 5:25 PM Subject: Re: Everything can be blamed on Vlad -- or, which house? > > Steve has numerous times that there will be 19 Vlad books, a first one, > Taltos, one for each House, then a final one, The last Contract. If > this assumes he doesn't die or get bored of the series first. > > On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 17:22:15 -0400, Timothy Nelson wrote: > > If there will eventually be 17 Vladiad books, as there must be (at least in > > the author's mind!), which house is most likely to be left out to include > > "Taltos"? > > From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Jul 28 15:23:21 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 15:23:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Everything can be blamed on Vlad -- or, which house? In-Reply-To: <001101c35556$5ff8dfc0$d916fea9@ananda> References: <001b01c3554e$5226f240$d916fea9@ananda> <20030728172543369366.GyazMail.zizban@adelphia.net> <001101c35556$5ff8dfc0$d916fea9@ananda> Message-ID: Perhaps two won't be Cycle-blessed - perhaps by a ringer... Actually I was just wondering about _Issola_ - Vlad seems to be too smart relative to Sethra, Verra, Aliera, etc - and the stuff with Teldra seems a bit wish-fulfillmenty... On Mon, 28 Jul 2003, Timothy Nelson wrote: > Gah... *not* 17? > My hardwired Cycle-indoctrinated brain is going to implode. Damn you, Steve! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chris Turkel > To: > Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 5:25 PM > Subject: Re: Everything can be blamed on Vlad -- or, which house? > > > > > > Steve has numerous times that there will be 19 Vlad books, a first one, > > Taltos, one for each House, then a final one, The last Contract. If > > this assumes he doesn't die or get bored of the series first. > > > > On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 17:22:15 -0400, Timothy Nelson wrote: > > > If there will eventually be 17 Vladiad books, as there must be (at least > in > > > the author's mind!), which house is most likely to be left out to > include > > > "Taltos"? > > > > > From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Jul 28 15:29:37 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 15:29:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Everything can be blamed on Vlad -- or, which house? Message-ID: <200307282229.h6SMTaI04646@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Gah... *not* 17? > My hardwired Cycle-indoctrinated brain is going to implode. Damn you, Steve! I think Steve, knowing that Irony is the strongest force in the universe, has taken up the cause to spread it around whenever and wherever he can. He does it deliberatly, the evil bastard.... :) Chris "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, son." - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm From dreadstar at bigpond.com Tue Jul 29 02:31:20 2003 From: dreadstar at bigpond.com (dreadstar) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 19:31:20 +1000 Subject: Everything can be blamed on Vlad -- or, which house? Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030729192016.00bb7d90@mail.bigpond.com> Ah, no, slip of the Return key. No, I was referring more to the number of books. I don't know too many series that can go for that many books, and retain their focus all the way through. The Gor series was the only one I could refer to off the cuff as being of such a size. (25? 30? ). Not that I don't think he (SB) couldn't do it. Given the way that each books title is included in some way in the body of the book, then it could be said that he has an effective focusing mechanism. Also, stating that a series of books will start "here", and end "here" is also good. Series that go on forever(again, Gor), can be said to loose enthusiasm somewhat. I think such activity was referred to by David Eddings as "drooling", writing without any aim or need as an author, except to keep the money flowing. >>Did you mean to send this to the list? Or just to me? :grins:. >>Vlad in Gor. Hmmmmmm. . .rather Steve's kinda thing, I guess. . .heh. Scary thought. >>Claire >Gad!! It's getting a little Gor-ish, isn't it? I just hope he doesn't >loose his creativity 1/2 way through. That's a lotta books. From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Jul 29 11:53:36 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 14:53:36 -0400 Subject: Everything can be blamed on Vlad -- or, which house? Message-ID: <7E3333E6.763D26D8.00048EA6@aol.com> Hmm, I seem to be missing a couple posts in this thread... dreadstar writes: > No, I was referring more to the number of books. I don't > know too many series that can go for that many books, and > retain their focus all the way through. ?The Gor series was > the only one I could refer to off the cuff as being of such > a size. (25? 30? ). ? I haven't read any Gor, so I can't comment on its focus, but Pratchett is nearing 30 Discworld novels without any signs of slowing nor loss of quality. Not a linear series, though. Over in mysteries, Carole Nelson Douglas is up to 15 novels in a strictly linear series. Recommended to anyone who isn't allergic to cats. Anyone want to comment on Perry Rhodan? --KG From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Jul 29 17:40:36 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:40:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: off-topic but still funny In-Reply-To: <3FF188E90615D21194BE00805F6F41F406CF117F@amhexc01ntms.amherst.hboc.com> References: <3FF188E90615D21194BE00805F6F41F406CF117F@amhexc01ntms.amherst.hboc.com> Message-ID: Chomsky: One of the problems with the perspective offered by the Man-Elf coalition is that you have to try so hard to get at the truth of the conflict, at what is really going on; it's so obscured by their propaganda and relentless militarism. I mean, here we have swords being distributed to the Hobbits by Strider so they can protect themselves against these "evil creatures." Now, in this case, it's probably warranted, though the "evil creatures" are looking for the ring in their own individual self-interest. They're behaving in a purely rational way. ... Zinn: I imagine there's a lot of Orc labor that gets in through Gondor and Rohan. They want to get out of Mordor. There are simply not a lot of economic options for them there. http://www.mcsweeneys.net/2003/04/23fellowship.html From hans117 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 30 01:03:02 2003 From: hans117 at yahoo.com (Hans Schweitzer) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 01:03:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Everything can be blamed on Vlad -- or, which house? In-Reply-To: <001101c35556$5ff8dfc0$d916fea9@ananda> Message-ID: <20030730080302.29570.qmail@web13801.mail.yahoo.com> Gah... *not* 17? My hardwired Cycle-indoctrinated brain is going to implode. Damn you, Steve! ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Turkel To: Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 5:25 PM Subject: Re: Everything can be blamed on Vlad -- or, which house? > > Steve has numerous times that there will be 19 Vlad books, a first one, > Taltos, one for each House, then a final one, The last Contract. If > this assumes he doesn't die or get bored of the series first. > > On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 17:22:15 -0400, Timothy Nelson wrote: > > If there will eventually be 17 Vladiad books, as there must be (at least in > > the author's mind!), which house is most likely to be left out to include > > "Taltos"? > > If you think about it, 19 is the real important number. The 17 houses, humans and the Serioli make 19. So 19 books makes more since then 17. You need to think "outside the Cycle." --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Wed Jul 30 07:25:18 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:25:18 +0000 Subject: Everything can be blamed on Vlad -- or, which house? Message-ID: Hans wrote: >If you think about it, 19 is the real important number. The 17 houses, >humans and the Serioli make 19. So 19 books makes more since then 17. You >need to think "outside the Cycle." Then you must count the Jenoine, mustn't you? _________________________________________________________________ Multiplica por cinco el tama?o de tu buz?n de correo y env?a adjuntos de hasta 2 Mb con MSN Almacenamiento Extra. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=es-es From harvester64 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 30 07:56:39 2003 From: harvester64 at yahoo.com (Harvester) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 07:56:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Everything can be blamed on Vlad -- or, which house? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030730145639.69316.qmail@web40912.mail.yahoo.com> --- Iv?n Rebollo wrote: > Hans wrote: > > >If you think about it, 19 is the real important number. The 17 > houses, > >humans and the Serioli make 19. So 19 books makes more since then > 17. You > >need to think "outside the Cycle." > > Then you must count the Jenoine, mustn't you? The way I look at it, 19 makes perfect sense -- not because of humans and serioli (since you'd then have to include not only the Jenoine, but the cat centaurs, half-breeds, actual dragons, actual jhereg, etc.), but because of the way SKZB writes his books. He usually has a prologue, 17 chapters, and an epilogue. You could look at _Taltos_ as being the prologue and _The Last Contract_ as being the epilogue. - Donald Seagraves ===== "On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." -- Charles Babbage __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Jul 30 09:51:08 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 09:51:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Everything can be blamed on Vlad -- or, which house? Message-ID: <200307301651.h6UGp7I07551@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > If you think about it, 19 is the real important number. The 17 houses, humans and the Serioli make 19. So 19 books makes more since then 17. You need to think "outside the Cycle." But then, wouldn't it be 20? One cannot forget the Jenoine, now can one? Oh, and what about the Cat-Centaurs? They're so cool they deserve their own book. Hmmm.... Anyone else? Boy, I hope Steve's hands don't cramp anytime soon.... :) Chris "The morning cup of coffee has an exhilaration about it which the cheering influence of the afternoon or evening cup of tea cannot be expected to reproduce." ~ Oliver Wedell Holmes, Sr. - "Over the Teacups" (1891) From usagigoya at hotmail.com Wed Jul 30 10:35:26 2003 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 17:35:26 +0000 Subject: Everything can be blamed on Vlad -- or, which house? Message-ID: Since the Khaavren Romances don't count as part of the proposed "19" Vlad Taltos novels, how about a seperate series centered around each or just some of the main gods? A novel about the cat-centuars would be interesting, I agree that their appearence in Taltos was quite cool. (See SKZB's Cool Theary of Liturature). Brokedown Palace could be concidered the first, as it is primarily centered on Verra and the people who worship her (sort of). >From: Chris Olson - SunPS >Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 09:51:08 -0700 (PDT) > >Oh, and what about the Cat-Centaurs? They're so cool they deserve their >own book. Hmmm.... Anyone else? _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Wed Jul 30 11:26:59 2003 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:26:59 -0700 Subject: Everything can be blamed on Vlad -- or, which house? Message-ID: >>>Oh, and what about the Cat-Centaurs? They're so cool they deserve >>their own book. Hmmm.... Anyone else? > AGREED! James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From greyw01f at hotmail.com Wed Jul 30 19:53:40 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 02:53:40 +0000 Subject: Mario the Mystery Message-ID: Hey-- I'm totally new to the list, having just read the entire website recommended in POTD...I am *such* a geek. In any event, I'd like to submit that I think Mario is none other than Paarfi. :P Oh, and Steve, if you see this, I shamelessly plug you to all of my friends. I think you would laugh long and hard at some of the specific instances... :) Jon Carey, Devoted (fanatic) reader of Steven Brust.
 
_________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From bio_phy at hotmail.com Wed Jul 30 21:09:49 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 23:09:49 -0500 Subject: Mario the Mystery Message-ID: >In any event, I'd like to submit that I think Mario is none other than >Paarfi. :P Interesting premise. Do you have any clues that would back this up? johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com forum: http://forum.instagiber.com/index.php?h=1&pf=268 stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From TimN at rcn.com Wed Jul 30 22:01:22 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 01:01:22 -0400 Subject: Mario the Mystery References: Message-ID: <000a01c35720$ca0b1600$d916fea9@ananda> I doubt it's him, however...one clue is that Aliera hasn't killed Paarfi yet. I find this suspicious! ----- Original Message ----- From: Johne Cook To: Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 12:09 AM Subject: Re: Mario the Mystery > >In any event, I'd like to submit that I think Mario is none other than > >Paarfi. :P > > Interesting premise. Do you have any clues that would back this up? > > johne (phy) cook > wisconsin, usa > > blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com > forum: http://forum.instagiber.com/index.php?h=1&pf=268 > stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > From dreadstar at bigpond.com Thu Jul 31 02:35:46 2003 From: dreadstar at bigpond.com (dreadstar) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 19:35:46 +1000 Subject: Everything can be blamed on Vlad -- or, which house? In-Reply-To: <7E3333E6.763D26D8.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030731193309.00bcaae0@mail.bigpond.com> >Anyone want to comment on Perry Rhodan? I collected a lot of them, but I only ever read perhaps the first 20. But, given they tended to become Novella's the further down, it became a bit disheartening to continue reading. _____________________________________________________ "I'm not expendable, I'm not stupid, and I'm not going" _____________________________________________________ From greyw01f at hotmail.com Thu Jul 31 14:28:48 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:28:48 +0000 Subject: Mario the Mystery Message-ID: Well, as to proofs, I must confess that I have none, seeing as how I was kidding. ;P In any event, I shall think upon it in seriousness, as I am curious to the fact, and, moreover, as I have been reading Dumas, I shall state the fact in such terms as to needlessly quadruple the length of my doing so. In any event--a serious question: would you guys label this a "high-volume" mailing list? If it is, all the better. If not, that's cool too. Jon _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jazzfish at softhome.net Thu Jul 31 14:29:36 2003 From: jazzfish at softhome.net (Tucker) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 17:29:36 -0400 Subject: Traffic (was Re: Mario the Mystery) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20030731172830.02b40bf0@pro.softhome.net> >In any event--a serious question: would you guys label this a >"high-volume" mailing list? If it is, all the better. If not, that's >cool too. Not usually, unless there's just been a new book out. So, expect traffic to spike later this month, lasting (probably) well into mid-October. (No LoCB in the Walden's shipment today. Sadness.) ---- "I can't think of much worse than spending a lifetime doing something that isn't what you want to do." --Neil Gaiman, 2003-05-18 From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Thu Jul 31 11:32:52 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 14:32:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mario the Mystery Message-ID: <6609383.1059687172413.JavaMail.nobody@misspiggy.psp.pas.earthlink.net> -------Original Message------- From: Jon Carey Sent: 07/31/03 05:28 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Mario the Mystery > In any event--a serious question: would you guys label this a > "high-volume" mailing list? If it is, all the better. If > not, that's cool too. It can be high-volume. Right now, I think we're sitting in the quiet before the storm, as Lord of Castle Black should cause all kinds of discussion (if not of the book, then of handling spoilers at the least *grin*). Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~jhereg69 From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Jul 31 14:56:24 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 16:56:24 -0500 Subject: Spoiler protection Message-ID: <20030731215624.GH24736@infodancer.org> On Thu, Jul 31, 2003 at 02:32:52PM -0400, Jose Marquez wrote: > > In any event--a serious question: would you guys label this a > > "high-volume" mailing list? If it is, all the better. If > > not, that's cool too. > It can be high-volume. Right now, I think we're sitting in the > quiet before the storm, as Lord of Castle Black should cause > all kinds of discussion (if not of the book, then of handling > spoilers at the least *grin*). Speaking of which: Would the list owner please post a spoiler policy reminder so we know how long the consensus for spoiler protection is? -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Jul 31 16:23:50 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 16:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: _TLoCB_ - no spoilers yet In-Reply-To: <20030731215624.GH24736@infodancer.org> References: <20030731215624.GH24736@infodancer.org> Message-ID: I'm not getting my copy until the 12th, according to Amazon, damn them, but I can list some of the issues I'm interested in seeing addressed/ resolved/murkified. In the Vladiad, we see that Baritt was the leading Dragon at some point previous to his offing (in circumstances that I think remain entirely murky, rather unreasonably given the Jhereg-Dragon war worries in _J_ and Vlad's general curiosity.) Is he going to make an appearance (not that there are too few characters in play already)? In _Vingt Ans Apres_, Dumas opposes D'Artagnan and Porthos to Athos and Aramis in a question of politics, greatly rounding out the characters in the process. I can't see Aerich, who is concerned about ending up in conflict with Pel, or Khaavren, whose son is in Zerika's camp, or Tazendra, a Lavode, being allied with Kana. I can't really see Pel actively working against his friends, or Zerika, for that matter. So I don't see how the conflict forshadowed in Aerich's oddly-sent letter will unfold. As there are two volumes yet to come, and the enthronement of Zerika would seem to be the major impetus of the trilogy, I wonder how the plot will be sustained. Kana doesn't seem like a credible opponent for Sethra and the Orb and (most of - see below) the Gods (and the SiG and StY and the Necromancer and ...) I would think that the Athyra and Lyorn will support Zerika, and I don't see why the other noble houses wouldn't, including the 2/3 of the Dragons not in Kana's empire. Maybe the J. will intervene. Maybe Grita will actually start killing people she wants to kill when they're undefended. Since presumably she doesn't know any Orb-sorcery, that will be a bit less likely than previously. We see Verra going to some trouble to send witches West - presumably they will play some important role in the coming events, but not in such a way that witchcraft will become prevalent in the Empire. In _Issola_, hc pg 136/7, Teldra says Tri'nagore isn't heard from much any more - sounds like he's going to get stomped on - also Paarfi's treatment of him isn't very respectful. We need to see Morollan charging up Dzur Mountain looking for tribute at some point (see _Issola_ somewhere). Will Mora (the bandit lieutenant) turn out to be a Tiassa? She seems to have some foresight (pg 171). Khaavren is in harness in _Phoenix_ (or is it _Teckla_?) looking grim - apparently the events in the next two volumes leave him employed, though I would have thought he would leave the action to Piro after the Interregnum. Another loose end I'm wondering about: Tortaalik's sister, exiled long ago - could she be the 2nd Phoenix the Gods mention in _TPotD_? From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Thu Jul 31 16:38:49 2003 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 16:38:49 -0700 Subject: _TLoCB_ - no spoilers yet Message-ID: >From: Philip Hart I can't really see Pel >actively working against his friends, or Zerika, for that matter. So >I don't see how the conflict forshadowed in Aerich's oddly-sent letter >will unfold. > As I recall, Aerich actually either burned or ordered the letter to be burned, and I don't think that inplies that the letter was sent (through means mystical, after all, no Orb yet). After all, why send notice to a Yendi that you are preparing to oppose him? (In my humble recollection of the matter, and subject to that limitation) James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Jul 31 17:00:55 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 17:00:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: _TLoCB_ - no spoilers yet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Jul 2003, James Griffin wrote: > >From: Philip Hart > >I don't see how the conflict forshadowed in Aerich's oddly-sent letter > >will unfold. > > > > As I recall, Aerich actually either burned or ordered the letter to be > burned, and I don't think that inplies that the letter was sent (through > means mystical, after all, no Orb yet). After all, why send notice to a > Yendi that you are preparing to oppose him? (In my humble recollection of > the matter, and subject to that limitation) This is a case of apparently being unclear in a failed attempt to express something in a novel way. The letter is burnt, the message is not transmitted; Aerich knows that there's nothing he can say to Pel that the Yendi doesn't already know. Note that we've already seen hints of the no doubt inevitable natural tension between Lyorn and Yendi at the end of _FHYA_. From alexx at TheWorld.com Thu Jul 31 17:03:19 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 20:03:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: _TLoCB_ - no spoilers yet In-Reply-To: from "Philip Hart" at Jul 31, 2003 04:23:50 PM Message-ID: <200308010003.UAA10784613@shell.TheWorld.com> > > I'm not getting my copy until the 12th, according to Amazon, damn them, > but I can list some of the issues I'm interested in seeing addressed/ > resolved/murkified. > > In the Vladiad, we see that Baritt was the leading Dragon at some point > previous to his offing (in circumstances that I think remain entirely > murky, rather unreasonably given the Jhereg-Dragon war worries in _J_ and > Vlad's general curiosity.) Is he going to make an appearance (not that > there are too few characters in play already)? TPotD has a Dramatis Personae that appears to encompass all of Viscount, not just it's first earth-published volume. Baritt does not appear on it, though, perhaps relevantly, one of the e'Baritt line does. Of course, Pel does not appear in the DP under any of his aliases. ISTR that this was a Brust-ian oversight, though he was happy to take up a list-member's suggestion that it was Yendi deviousness. So, not appearing in the DP isn't *definitive* evidence. > In _Vingt Ans Apres_, Dumas opposes D'Artagnan and Porthos to Athos and > Aramis in a question of politics, greatly rounding out the characters in > the process. I can't see Aerich, who is concerned about ending up in > conflict with Pel, or Khaavren, whose son is in Zerika's camp, or > Tazendra, a Lavode, being allied with Kana. I can't really see Pel > actively working against his friends, or Zerika, for that matter. So > I don't see how the conflict forshadowed in Aerich's oddly-sent letter > will unfold. In Dumas, Porthos was allied with Aramis through manipulation, not because he was supporting (or indeed aware of) Aramis' goals. Pel could yet do something similar with Tazendra. Or, the parallel may simply not hold. > As there are two volumes yet to come, and the enthronement of Zerika would > seem to be the major impetus of the trilogy, I wonder how the plot will be > sustained. Kana doesn't seem like a credible opponent for Sethra and the > Orb and (most of - see below) the Gods (and the SiG and StY and the > Necromancer and ...) I would think that the Athyra and Lyorn will support > Zerika, and I don't see why the other noble houses wouldn't, including the > 2/3 of the Dragons not in Kana's empire. Maybe the J. will intervene. > Maybe Grita will actually start killing people she wants to kill when > they're undefended. Since presumably she doesn't know any Orb-sorcery, > that will be a bit less likely than previously. I might note that the Dramatis Personae previously mentioned includes a certain political force that has not yet been heard from as of volume one. I refrain from naming them as a probable spoiler, but they should be easy to identify if you care to look. [snip] > In _Issola_, hc pg 136/7, Teldra says Tri'nagore isn't heard from much any > more - sounds like he's going to get stomped on - also Paarfi's treatment > of him isn't very respectful. Or at the very least, stomped-on-by-proxy as Morrolan goes after a chunk of his worshippers. > We need to see Morollan charging up Dzur Mountain looking for tribute at > some point (see _Issola_ somewhere). Page 138 of the hardcover. [snip] > Khaavren is in harness in _Phoenix_ (or is it _Teckla_?) looking grim - > apparently the events in the next two volumes leave him employed, though > I would have thought he would leave the action to Piro after the > Interregnum. My impression (not very firmly founded) is that Khaavren is *mostly* desk- bound in Vlad's time. His appearance in the field near the end of _Teckla_ (page 201) strikes Vlad as impressive (and, presumably, unusual). Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx Subtlety is the art of saying what you think and getting out of the way before it is understood. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Jul 31 17:42:00 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 17:42:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: _TLoCB_ - no spoilers yet In-Reply-To: <200308010003.UAA10784613@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <200308010003.UAA10784613@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Jul 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > Vlad's general curiosity.) Is he going to make an appearance (not that > > there are too few characters in play already)? > > TPotD has a Dramatis Personae that appears to encompass all of Viscount, > not just its first earth-published volume. I apparently am a sucky reader, having totally overlooked the DP. Note that _TPotD_ ends on a dramatic note, hence any claim by Paarfi that his book is arbitrarily divided seems to me improbable. If _TLoCB_ ends mid-sentence I will apologize. > > In _Vingt Ans Apres_, Dumas opposes D'Artagnan and Porthos to Athos and > > Aramis in a question of politics, greatly rounding out the characters in > > the process. I can't see Aerich, who is concerned about ending up in > > conflict with Pel, or Khaavren, whose son is in Zerika's camp, or > > Tazendra, a Lavode, being allied with Kana. I can't really see Pel > > actively working against his friends, or Zerika, for that matter. So > > I don't see how the conflict forshadowed in Aerich's oddly-sent letter > > will unfold. > > In Dumas, Porthos was allied with Aramis through manipulation, not because > he was supporting (or indeed aware of) Aramis' goals. Pel could yet do > something similar with Tazendra. Or, the parallel may simply not hold. Porthos follows D'Artagnan because the latter pledges to arrange a baronage, a baroncy - to arrange to have the former made a baron. (Which in fact he gets as a consequence of some not entirely noble threats.) Anyway, all I was saying was that Khaavren and Pel vs Aerich and Tazendra or some other equal division would be more fun than Pel vs the rest. From rick at 404.978.org Thu Jul 31 18:51:15 2003 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:51:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Books not yet arrived to booksellers In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20030731172830.02b40bf0@pro.softhome.net> References: <5.1.0.14.1.20030731172830.02b40bf0@pro.softhome.net> Message-ID: <54874.192.168.1.1.1059702675.squirrel@404.978.org> Tucker said: > >>In any event--a serious question: would you guys label this a >>"high-volume" mailing list? If it is, all the better. If not, that's >> cool too. > > Not usually, unless there's just been a new book out. So, expect traffic > to spike later this month, lasting (probably) well into mid-October. > > (No LoCB in the Walden's shipment today. Sadness.) According to my local Borders, Barnes and Noble, and Waldenbooks stores in southern New Hampshire and northern Massachusetts, none of them have received their shipment yet either... :( ...though each of them have been sworn to call my cell phone the moment the books arrive. ;) -Rick From casey at trinityhartford.org Fri Aug 1 05:06:40 2003 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 08:06:40 -0400 Subject: _TLoCB_ - no spoilers yet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401c35825$60b00b10$a902a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Philip Hart wrote (in part): > In _Vingt Ans Apres_, Dumas opposes D'Artagnan and Porthos to > Athos and Aramis in a question of politics, greatly rounding > out the characters in the process. To the extent that one can draw parallels, it might be helpful to recall that the parallels are most likely between: The Three Musketeers : The Pheonix Guard Twenty Years After (Vingt Ans Apres) : Five Hundred Years After Vicompte de Bragelonne : The Viscount of Adrilankha Casey From ikep at umbc.edu Fri Aug 1 12:18:42 2003 From: ikep at umbc.edu (Ike Porter) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 15:18:42 -0400 Subject: Mario the Mystery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Jul 2003, Jon Carey wrote: > > Hey-- > > I'm totally new to the list, having just read the entire website recommended > in POTD...I am *such* a geek. > > In any event, I'd like to submit that I think Mario is none other than > Paarfi. :P > > Oh, and Steve, if you see this, I shamelessly plug you to all of my friends. > I think you would laugh long and hard at some of the specific instances... > :) Actually, all the characters are Sethra in various incarnations, but at the core Sethra is actually a teenage girl who slipped and fell during her first foray into the world of bondage and as a result slipped into a coma. All the Vlad books are simply an external manifestation of her unconscious ramblings. When she wakes up, it all disappears in a poof of logic. Fortunately, there's a guy with a floopy hat standing by her bedside with a tape recorder and a brick. --Brother Ike From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Aug 1 13:30:51 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 13:30:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mario the Mystery Message-ID: <200308012030.h71KUqI14799@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Actually, all the characters are Sethra in various incarnations, but at > the core Sethra is actually a teenage girl who slipped and fell during her > first foray into the world of bondage and as a result slipped into a coma. > All the Vlad books are simply an external manifestation of her unconscious > ramblings. When she wakes up, it all disappears in a poof of logic. > Fortunately, there's a guy with a floopy hat standing by her bedside with > a tape recorder and a brick. Come, now. That is totaly farfetched. The hat isn't all *that* floppy.... Chris "The morning cup of coffee has an exhilaration about it which the cheering influence of the afternoon or evening cup of tea cannot be expected to reproduce." ~ Oliver Wedell Holmes, Sr. - "Over the Teacups" (1891) From jalipaz at stanford.edu Fri Aug 1 16:09:43 2003 From: jalipaz at stanford.edu (Julie Alipaz) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:09:43 -0700 Subject: new book Message-ID: on the book front... I live in Monterey, Ca and all the bookstores around here say that the book is backordered, and they expect it in 10 days to two weeks--I might as well be living in the middle of nowhere!! JAA From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Aug 1 16:16:49 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 16:16:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new book In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Amazon has it being published today - but not yet released. Also its sales rank is 2952, which I hope means lots of shekels going to SKZB. On Fri, 1 Aug 2003, Julie Alipaz wrote: > on the book front... > > I live in Monterey, Ca and all the bookstores around here say > that the book is backordered, and they expect it in 10 days to two > weeks--I might as well be living in the middle of nowhere!! > > > JAA > > From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Aug 1 16:35:57 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 16:35:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new book In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For what it's worth, Charles de Lint has a new Tor hc coming out today but not yet released, so it's not some conspiracy against just us. For comparison, CdL's book is at 3.7k, even though the cover art is more or less infintely better: http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0312873980.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg Maybe SKZB could get his hands on this artist: http://images.amazon.com/images/P/067003584X.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0765303817/ref=lib_dp_TFCV/002-2496864-4642444?v=glance&s=books&vi=reader#reader-link On Fri, 1 Aug 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > Amazon has it being published today - but not yet released. Also its > sales rank is 2952, which I hope means lots of shekels going to SKZB. > > > On Fri, 1 Aug 2003, Julie Alipaz wrote: > > > on the book front... > > > > I live in Monterey, Ca and all the bookstores around here say > > that the book is backordered, and they expect it in 10 days to two > > weeks--I might as well be living in the middle of nowhere!! > > > > > > JAA > > > > > From jtoth at megrez.org Fri Aug 1 20:42:59 2003 From: jtoth at megrez.org (Jim Toth) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 23:42:59 -0400 Subject: new book In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030802034259.GA4834@castor.megrez.org> On Fri, Aug 01, 2003 at 04:35:57PM -0700, Philip Hart (philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU) said: > For what it's worth, Charles de Lint has a new Tor hc coming out > today but not yet released, so it's not some conspiracy against just > us. "Not yet released"? I got both books Friday morning about 11am, muahahahaha. (I've finished _The Lord of Castle Black_ and plan to start _Spirits in the Wires_ in a few minutes.) -- Jim Toth jtoth at megrez.org From jtoth at megrez.org Fri Aug 1 20:44:01 2003 From: jtoth at megrez.org (Jim Toth) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 23:44:01 -0400 Subject: new book In-Reply-To: <20030802034259.GA4834@castor.megrez.org> References: <20030802034259.GA4834@castor.megrez.org> Message-ID: <20030802034400.GB4834@castor.megrez.org> On Fri, Aug 01, 2003 at 11:42:59PM -0400, Jim Toth (jtoth at megrez.org) said: > On Fri, Aug 01, 2003 at 04:35:57PM -0700, > Philip Hart (philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU) said: > > For what it's worth, Charles de Lint has a new Tor hc coming out > > today but not yet released, so it's not some conspiracy against just > > us. > > "Not yet released"? I got both books Friday morning about 11am, > muahahahaha. (I've finished _The Lord of Castle Black_ and plan to > start _Spirits in the Wires_ in a few minutes.) Make that 11am Thursday. I didn't work today and it felt like a Saturday to me today. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Aug 1 20:48:53 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 20:48:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new book In-Reply-To: <20030802034259.GA4834@castor.megrez.org> References: <20030802034259.GA4834@castor.megrez.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Aug 2003, Jim Toth wrote: > On Fri, Aug 01, 2003 at 04:35:57PM -0700, > Philip Hart (philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU) said: > > For what it's worth, Charles de Lint has a new Tor hc coming out > > today but not yet released, so it's not some conspiracy against just > > us. > "Not yet released"? I got both books Friday morning about 11am, > muahahahaha. (I've finished _The Lord of Castle Black_ and plan to > start _Spirits in the Wires_ in a few minutes.) Ok, maybe it's a conspiracy against just me. Oops, sorry, gotta split, Rod Serling's on the line. From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Aug 1 20:52:33 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 22:52:33 -0500 Subject: new book In-Reply-To: <20030802034259.GA4834@castor.megrez.org> References: <20030802034259.GA4834@castor.megrez.org> Message-ID: <20030802035233.GP2206@infodancer.org> On Fri, Aug 01, 2003 at 11:42:59PM -0400, Jim Toth wrote: > On Fri, Aug 01, 2003 at 04:35:57PM -0700, > Philip Hart (philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU) said: > > For what it's worth, Charles de Lint has a new Tor hc coming out > > today but not yet released, so it's not some conspiracy against just > > us. > "Not yet released"? I got both books Friday morning about 11am, > muahahahaha. (I've finished _The Lord of Castle Black_ and plan to > start _Spirits in the Wires_ in a few minutes.) For whatever it's worth, I hereby declare you an Officially Envied Listmember. Argh. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From rick at 404.978.org Fri Aug 1 21:33:07 2003 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 00:33:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: new book In-Reply-To: <20030802034259.GA4834@castor.megrez.org> References: <20030802034259.GA4834@castor.megrez.org> Message-ID: <57593.192.168.1.1.1059798787.squirrel@404.978.org> Jim Toth said: > On Fri, Aug 01, 2003 at 04:35:57PM -0700, > Philip Hart (philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU) said: >> For what it's worth, Charles de Lint has a new Tor hc coming out today >> but not yet released, so it's not some conspiracy against just us. > > "Not yet released"? I got both books Friday morning about 11am, > muahahahaha. (I've finished _The Lord of Castle Black_ and plan to > start _Spirits in the Wires_ in a few minutes.) Grrr. All major outlets in my tri-county area haven't received shipments yet, and don't get weekend shipments. Maybe I'll call some Boston booksellers and take the 40 min drive. -Rick From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sat Aug 2 07:51:52 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 07:51:52 -0700 Subject: Mario the Mystery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030802075121.01dd4bb0@localhost> At 03:18 PM 8/1/2003 -0400, Ike Porter wrote: > When she wakes up, it all disappears in a poof of logic. >Fortunately, there's a guy with a floopy hat standing by her bedside with >a tape recorder and a brick. > >--Brother Ike C'mon, man. Don't give away the BIG secret. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sat Aug 2 07:53:05 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 07:53:05 -0700 Subject: Mario the Mystery In-Reply-To: <200308012030.h71KUqI14799@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030802075211.03a4c3c0@localhost> At 01:30 PM 8/1/2003 -0700, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > >Come, now. That is totaly farfetched. > >The hat isn't all *that* floppy.... Thanks. I knew I could count on you. From matthew at infodancer.org Sat Aug 2 17:35:00 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 19:35:00 -0500 Subject: [SPOILERS] _The Lord of Castle Black_ Message-ID: <20030803003459.GA863@infodancer.org> Well. That was fun. [SPOILERS below] But alas, somewhat disappointing. While we saw many events of much import, they were not all handled with the detail I would have liked. And I confess that I am left quite puzzled as to the contents of the third portion of this novel-in-three-parts. In order to spark discussion, I shall attempt a sparse enumeration of noteworthy events: * Morrolan charges up Dzur Mountain seeking tribute (bravo!) * Morrolan receives a Morganti weapon, which he calls his "black wand" (not yet capitalized) from Sethra Lavode, as tribute. Well enough handled, yet something is still missing; I find it hard to believe that that event alone constitutes the fulfillment of the multiple prophecies to which we have been privy. In other words, he still needs a soul for his sword -- and if not, well, I confess I find the account lacking. * Morrolan now possesses a floating castle. Well handled. * The matter of Zerika's Eastern lover is explained to some degree. My naturally suspicious mind leads me to make the following supposition: Laszlo is Noish-pa. Evidence? They are both witches; Noish-pa has a feline familiar; they are both from South Adrilankha; Arra presents a precedent for the life-extension techniques of Eastern witches; Laszlo himself presumably survives in Vlad's time, as Zerika is still rumored to have an Eastern lover; we have never heard Noish-pa's proper name. Evidence to the contrary: Vlad's father, and/or mother, presumably are descended from Noish-pa, yet we do not know if easterners and dragaereans can interbreed that I recall; Morrolan knows Laszlo and has met Noish-pa without expressing recognition; Laszlo seems more comfortable with elfs than Noish-pa. Conclusion: we do not know, yet I suspect some connection at least. * The comments of the Gods in _The Paths of the Dead_ regarding Phoenixes come to mind, particularly how "two hidden can combine to produce one visible". This seems a clear indication of a recessive gene, which is by no means a surprise, yet for that interpertation to apply we need have only one Phoenix (whose descendents carry the recessive gene and eventually recombine to produce a full Phoenix). If we take the words of the Gods as reported (faithfully or otherwise) by Paarfi, then the presence of two Phoenixes may be significant, or indeed required; and if required we can surmise that both Zerika and Illista must survive and bear children, their own genetic heritage to combine at some future point and produce a full Phoenix. If this is the case, then we can take as implied that Dragaerans and Easterners can interbreed, which has interesting implications regarding Zerika, Laslzo, and the prior speculation. * Loraan is established by Paarfi to be a separate individual >from Grita, aka Orlann. Referring to my prior treatise on this matter, however, I find that the reasoning presented therein remains intact; the existance of Grita/Orlann remains a matter in which the hand of Paarfi may have overridden the hand of history. Of course, those who choose to apply Occam's Razor (not to mention, to take at face value of the words of the esteemed author) may conclude that this is a merely factual explanation deserving of no further examination. * Kana is messing with the Gods. The consequences of this are not yet known, yet are unlikely to be trivial (and are, in fact, likely to take up a substantial portion of the next volume). Kate Nepveu has some illuminating comments of her own upon this matter which I include by reference (http://www.steelypips.org/). * Piro and company have become separated from their parents and taken up employment as highwaymen. This is disturbing. * Sethra the Younger and Morrolan have discussed invading the east. This strikes me as significant for the future, though not necessarily for the third volume. * The Sorceress in Green continues to play a role along the fringes. If she is, in fact, a Yendi (as I recall from none other than _Yendi_), then this may indicate that she is taking a much larger role than is expressed by Paarfi; that soul of brevity would doubtless have chosen to exclude her entirely were her presence as ineffectual as so far it appears to have been. * Devera appears to be present in obvious and substantial form, though how Paarfi could possibly be aware of the events in which she appears in sufficient detail to accurately include the presence of an individual entirely inconsequential to the events themselves is unexplained. * Eastern witchcraft appears to consider the numbers 21 and 34 significant. 34, of course, is twice 17. 21 is thrice 7. What this means I do not know. * Morrolan's floating castle is quite probably held up by, as Vlad surmised, a rune wrought in the features of the terrain below it that continually tells the castle "Don't fall down." * I would be very much amused by a Vlad novel told from Morrolan's perspective. * Tazendra lost a cousin to Sethra Lavode; her cousin was doing the typical Dzurlord thing of charging up Dzur Mountain. * Interesting and unusual twist regarding Piro's choice of romantic partners. I wonder where it's going? * When's the next one again? ;) -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From rick at 404.978.org Sat Aug 2 17:56:05 2003 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 20:56:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [NO SPOILERS] _The Lord of Castle Black_ In-Reply-To: <20030803003459.GA863@infodancer.org> References: <20030803003459.GA863@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <59135.192.168.1.1.1059872165.squirrel@404.978.org> Matthew Hunter said: > Well. > > That was fun. > > [SPOILERS below] *sigh* My booksellers suck. -Rick From rone at ennui.org Sat Aug 2 19:11:32 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (epicanthic folderol) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 19:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: if you're thinking of buying LoCB online... Message-ID: <20030803021132.6FBFA26E3A@boredom.ennui.org> http://booksense.com/ will let you order books online so you may pick them up at independent bookstores near you. I just ordered it and i'll be picking it up as soon as they let me know it's there (the site says it'll be 1-5 days; i hope it's accurate). rone -- Imagine Garrison Keillor separating Humphrey Socialists from members of a rural militia during a basement political rally/Lutefisk boil in the basement of a small Lutheran church. - Matt Marchese , on politics in Wisconsin From alexx at TheWorld.com Sun Aug 3 09:01:40 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 12:01:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: _TLoCB_ - no spoilers yet In-Reply-To: from "Philip Hart" at Jul 31, 2003 05:42:00 PM Message-ID: <200308031601.MAA10951313@shell.TheWorld.com> > Note that _TPotD_ ends on a dramatic note, hence any claim by Paarfi that > his book is arbitrarily divided seems to me improbable. If _TLoCB_ ends > mid-sentence I will apologize. The division of Viscount into six "books" is presumably due to Paarfi, not to earth editors. Given that, it is sensible (yet still in some sense "arbitrary") to divide the three volumes into two "books" each. There's even clear precedent, in that that's exactly what was done with Tolkien. I also note that Paarfi inserted just such a dramatic moment at the end of "book one", and that he has a strong tendency to end chapters with dramatic moments as well. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "When I grow up, I want to be an honest lawyer so things like that can't happen." -- Young Richard Nixon on Teapot Dome scandal From alexx at TheWorld.com Sun Aug 3 10:28:40 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 13:28:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: TLoCB typos [no spoilers] Message-ID: <200308031728.NAA10793981@shell.TheWorld.com> Well, I've finished my first read-through of the new one. Although I usually save note-taking behavior for subsequent passes, I do try and note typos the first time through, as they are harder to see with each re-read. Page 223, about half-way down the page, on the right margin, "my" should actually be "may". Page 249, about 3/4 of the way down, straddling two lines, I suspect that the phrase "choose not acknowledge" should actually read "choose not to acknowledge". The form as printed is both archaic and awkward, but Paarfi being who he is, that may have been intentional. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "Whatever Dr. Gull's notions of an eternal war between the rational male solar force and the irrational female lunar force might lead one to suppose, this is not my own point of view. I tend to see both forces as elements in a far wider dynamic balance and tend to shy away from polarised positions such as Sun vs. Moon, Man vs. Woman, Christianity vs. Diabolism, Lobo vs. Wolverine, and so on." -- Alan Moore, in correspondence with Dave Sim about _From Hell_ From matthew at infodancer.org Sun Aug 3 10:38:59 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 12:38:59 -0500 Subject: [SPOILERS] _The Lord of Castle Black_ In-Reply-To: <200308031613.MAA10971609@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <20030803003459.GA863@infodancer.org> <200308031613.MAA10971609@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <20030803173859.GC9964@infodancer.org> Reposting my response to an accidentally-private reply on-list, with permission. On Sun, Aug 03, 2003 at 12:13:21PM -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > Well. > > > > That was fun. > > > > [SPOILERS below] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [snip] > > > If this is the case, > > then we can take as implied that Dragaerans and Easterners can > > interbreed, which has interesting implications regarding Zerika, > > Laslzo, and the prior speculation. > Hardly. There's huge amounts of historical (and fictional) precedent > for a ruler to have a consort for the sole purpose of providing genetic > continuity, and that role is only ocassionally, by happy coincidence, > filled by the same person who has the role of "lover". My use of implies was meant to be weak rather than strong -- that is, the possibility is implied but does not provide certainty. > > * Sethra the Younger and Morrolan have discussed invading the > > east. This strikes me as significant for the future, though not > > necessarily for the third volume. > In a sense, it's already *been* significant. This matter was of > central import to the plot of _Yendi_, and has been referenced in > several other Vlad books as well. True, but the significant portion of this element would be Morrolan's involvement, and points to an invasion of the East coinciding with Morrolan's desire to lay some smackdown on that village that he wants to feed to Verra. We know that Verra gets her meal well before _Yendi_. > > * Morrolan's floating castle is quite probably held up by, as > > Vlad surmised, a rune wrought in the features of the terrain > > below it that continually tells the castle "Don't fall down." > Well, maybe. But TLoCB gives us another possibility: It's held up by > 714 chanting witches. Presumably he has a lot more than that, working > in shifts. Which would go some way towards explaining why Morrolan's > circle of witches, so often mentioned in passing, have never become > foreground as a plot device in any of the Vlad books; they're all too > busy keeping the castle floating. I was operating under the impression that the "rune" would be Arra's way of making the levitation permanent. She suggests that with enough witches, she can make it permanent. > > * Interesting and unusual twist regarding Piro's choice of > > romantic partners. I wonder where it's going? > About a third of the way through, I suspected this would happen, and by > halfway through, I was sure. As in the Dumas model, the Viscount's love > life is not well-omened. It did make me appreciate, from an authorial > point of view, how cleverly Brust and Paarfi established the necessary > setup for this. Since I haven't yet read the Dumas works in this case, could you elaborate a little on this element in Dumas? -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From alexx at TheWorld.com Sun Aug 3 12:25:40 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 15:25:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [SPOILERS] _The Lord of Castle Black_ In-Reply-To: <20030803173859.GC9964@infodancer.org> from "Matthew Hunter" at Aug 03, 2003 12:38:59 PM Message-ID: <200308031925.PAA11010903@shell.TheWorld.com> > On Sun, Aug 03, 2003 at 12:13:21PM -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > > Well. > > > > > > That was fun. > > > > > > [SPOILERS below] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [snip] > > I was operating under the impression that the "rune" would be > Arra's way of making the levitation permanent. She suggests that > with enough witches, she can make it permanent. I don't remember such a suggestion, but will watch for it during the next read-through (already underway, but slower, 'cause I'm updating the Timeline). > > > * Interesting and unusual twist regarding Piro's choice of > > > romantic partners. I wonder where it's going? > > About a third of the way through, I suspected this would happen, and by > > halfway through, I was sure. As in the Dumas model, the Viscount's love > > life is not well-omened. It did make me appreciate, from an authorial > > point of view, how cleverly Brust and Paarfi established the necessary > > setup for this. > > Since I haven't yet read the Dumas works in this case, could you > elaborate a little on this element in Dumas? Raoul, the Vicomte de Bragelone loves Louise de la Valliere. This love is, at least at first, returned. But after she joins the royal court, she is successfully wooed by the king, and becomes his mistress, thus breaking Raoul's heart. The parallel is not close, but definitely seems present, at least to me. Speaking of literary parallels, When Tazendra announces that she has checked the cave the party is camped in front of, and it only goes back fifteen feet, I immediately flashed on a similar scene from _The Hobbit_. And sure enough, just as in the Hobbit, a little later, the party are surprised by someone emerging from the (apparently) dead-end cave. Might be just a coincidence, but it brought a smile to my face. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx Negligent (adj.), describes a condition in which you absentmindedly answer the door in your nightie. From matthew at infodancer.org Sun Aug 3 12:32:09 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 14:32:09 -0500 Subject: [SPOILERS] _The Lord of Castle Black_ In-Reply-To: <200308031925.PAA11010903@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <20030803173859.GC9964@infodancer.org> <200308031925.PAA11010903@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <20030803193209.GD9964@infodancer.org> On Sun, Aug 03, 2003 at 03:25:40PM -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 03, 2003 at 12:13:21PM -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > > > Well. > > > > > > > > That was fun. > > > > > > > > [SPOILERS below] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [snip] > > > > I was operating under the impression that the "rune" would be > > Arra's way of making the levitation permanent. She suggests that > > with enough witches, she can make it permanent. > I don't remember such a suggestion, but will watch for it during the > next read-through (already underway, but slower, 'cause I'm updating > the Timeline). Page 308. > > > > * Interesting and unusual twist regarding Piro's choice of > > > > romantic partners. I wonder where it's going? > > > About a third of the way through, I suspected this would happen, and by > > > halfway through, I was sure. As in the Dumas model, the Viscount's love > > > life is not well-omened. It did make me appreciate, from an authorial > > > point of view, how cleverly Brust and Paarfi established the necessary > > > setup for this. > > Since I haven't yet read the Dumas works in this case, could you > > elaborate a little on this element in Dumas? > Raoul, the Vicomte de Bragelone loves Louise de la Valliere. This love is, > at least at first, returned. But after she joins the royal court, she is > successfully wooed by the king, and becomes his mistress, thus breaking > Raoul's heart. > The parallel is not close, but definitely seems present, at least to me. Hmm. Zerika would find it difficult to fulfill that parallel, I think. > Speaking of literary parallels, When Tazendra announces that she has > checked the cave the party is camped in front of, and it only goes back > fifteen feet, I immediately flashed on a similar scene from _The Hobbit_. > And sure enough, just as in the Hobbit, a little later, the party are > surprised by someone emerging from the (apparently) dead-end cave. Might > be just a coincidence, but it brought a smile to my face. Yes. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From matthew at infodancer.org Sun Aug 3 12:33:38 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 14:33:38 -0500 Subject: TLoCB typos [no spoilers] In-Reply-To: <200308031728.NAA10793981@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <200308031728.NAA10793981@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <20030803193338.GE9964@infodancer.org> On Sun, Aug 03, 2003 at 01:28:40PM -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: > Well, I've finished my first read-through of the new one. Although I usually > save note-taking behavior for subsequent passes, I do try and note typos the > first time through, as they are harder to see with each re-read. > > Page 223, about half-way down the page, on the right margin, "my" should > actually be "may". > > Page 249, about 3/4 of the way down, straddling two lines, I suspect that > the phrase "choose not acknowledge" should actually read "choose not to > acknowledge". The form as printed is both archaic and awkward, but Paarfi > being who he is, that may have been intentional. Page 308. "How, you have done a Seeing?" "Exactly. Thirty hours from now, all we be clear." Should be "will" instead of "we", most likely. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From alexx at TheWorld.com Sun Aug 3 16:25:17 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 19:25:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [SPOILERS] _The Lord of Castle Black_ In-Reply-To: <20030803193209.GD9964@infodancer.org> from "Matthew Hunter" at Aug 03, 2003 02:32:09 PM Message-ID: <200308032325.TAA10978733@shell.TheWorld.com> > > On Sun, Aug 03, 2003 at 03:25:40PM -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > > On Sun, Aug 03, 2003 at 12:13:21PM -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > > > > Well. > > > > > > > > > > That was fun. > > > > > > > > > > [SPOILERS below] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [snip] > > > > > > I was operating under the impression that the "rune" would be > > > Arra's way of making the levitation permanent. She suggests that > > > with enough witches, she can make it permanent. > > I don't remember such a suggestion, but will watch for it during the > > next read-through (already underway, but slower, 'cause I'm updating > > the Timeline). > > Page 308. "With this arrangement [of 714 witches], I should undertake to maintain a structure with a hundred times this much weight, and to hold it up forever." Seems to me that the "maintain" in the above refers to an active, ongoing process, not to any sort of "permanence". The "hold it up forever" would seem to indicate that she is confident that the process will be able to continue uninterrupted. Interesting implication, given Easterner lifespans, is that the number of witches will need (by Dragaeran standards) a nearly constant influx of new blood, to take over as some age and die (unless they *all* get Arra's longevity, I suppose...). Which lends a bit more signifigance to the offhand bit where Arra encourages one of the male witches to continue trying to break down the romantic resistance of another witch. Maybe they just replenish their ranks the old-fashioned way :-) Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx the only normal people are the ones you don't know very well. -- Nurse Jones From matthew at infodancer.org Sun Aug 3 16:31:14 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 18:31:14 -0500 Subject: [SPOILERS] _The Lord of Castle Black_ In-Reply-To: <200308032325.TAA10978733@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <20030803193209.GD9964@infodancer.org> <200308032325.TAA10978733@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <20030803233113.GG9964@infodancer.org> On Sun, Aug 03, 2003 at 07:25:17PM -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > > > On Sun, Aug 03, 2003 at 03:25:40PM -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > > > On Sun, Aug 03, 2003 at 12:13:21PM -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > > > > > Well. > > > > > > > > > > > > That was fun. > > > > > > > > > > > > [SPOILERS below] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [snip] > > > > > > > > I was operating under the impression that the "rune" would be > > > > Arra's way of making the levitation permanent. She suggests that > > > > with enough witches, she can make it permanent. > > > I don't remember such a suggestion, but will watch for it during the > > > next read-through (already underway, but slower, 'cause I'm updating > > > the Timeline). > > > > Page 308. > > "With this arrangement [of 714 witches], I should > undertake to maintain a structure with a hundred times this much weight, > and to hold it up forever." Seems to me that the "maintain" in the above > refers to an active, ongoing process, not to any sort of "permanence". > The "hold it up forever" would seem to indicate that she is confident > that the process will be able to continue uninterrupted. I find the idea of 714 witches in a large number of circles chanting continually in shifts for hundreds of years for no better purpose than to hold up Morrolan's castle when a small amount of sorcerous research would doubtless be able to achieve the same effect automatically ... substantially uncool. Therefore, I choose to believe that Brust is telling us something different, which I do find sufficiently cool. I do not dispute that the interpertations of Arra's statements could go either way. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From alexx at TheWorld.com Sun Aug 3 18:28:47 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 21:28:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [SPOILERS] _The Lord of Castle Black_ In-Reply-To: <20030803233113.GG9964@infodancer.org> from "Matthew Hunter" at Aug 03, 2003 06:31:14 PM Message-ID: <200308040128.VAA11034045@shell.TheWorld.com> > > On Sun, Aug 03, 2003 at 07:25:17PM -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 03, 2003 at 03:25:40PM -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > > > > On Sun, Aug 03, 2003 at 12:13:21PM -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > > > > > > Well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was fun. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [SPOILERS below] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [snip] > I find the idea of 714 witches in a large number of circles > chanting continually in shifts for hundreds of years for no > better purpose than to hold up Morrolan's castle when a small > amount of sorcerous research would doubtless be able to achieve > the same effect automatically ... Who needs research? Presumably the spells used to make the old floating castles are still well known. Of course, it's also known that under rare circumstances, they can fail rather catastrophically. I think it's not inconceivable that Morrolan would keep his 1000+ witches chanting all the time simply as an active backup mechanism, even if he did use the old-style levitation spell. After all, there's no real cost to *him* to do that, and he's certainly not above inconveniencing large numbers of (to him) unimportant people (such as soldiers in an army), on what amounts to a whim. Heh. Maybe part of the reason he's so interested in Elder Sorcery is because he wants a third redundant system for keeping his castle up :-) > substantially uncool. Coolness is subjective, so I cannot argue this matter. From jtoth at megrez.org Sun Aug 3 20:08:04 2003 From: jtoth at megrez.org (Jim Toth) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 23:08:04 -0400 Subject: TLoCB typos [no spoilers] In-Reply-To: <20030803193338.GE9964@infodancer.org> References: <200308031728.NAA10793981@shell.TheWorld.com> <20030803193338.GE9964@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20030804030804.GB8559@castor.megrez.org> On Sun, Aug 03, 2003 at 02:33:38PM -0500, Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) said: > On Sun, Aug 03, 2003 at 01:28:40PM -0400, Alexx S Kay > wrote: > > Well, I've finished my first read-through of the new one. Although I usually > > save note-taking behavior for subsequent passes, I do try and note typos the > > first time through, as they are harder to see with each re-read. > > > > Page 223, about half-way down the page, on the right margin, "my" should > > actually be "may". > > > > Page 249, about 3/4 of the way down, straddling two lines, I suspect that > > the phrase "choose not acknowledge" should actually read "choose not to > > acknowledge". The form as printed is both archaic and awkward, but Paarfi > > being who he is, that may have been intentional. > > Page 308. > > "How, you have done a Seeing?" > "Exactly. Thirty hours from now, all we be clear." > > Should be "will" instead of "we", most likely. Mostly, my Inner Editor helpfully corrects such things somewhere on the way from my retina to my frontal lobe. Which I suppose I shouldn't complain too much about, since it helps my enjoyment of books. But I did see: Page 9, "First" should be "Fourth". Unless the book is going backward in time, which it appears not to be doing. -- Jim Toth jtoth at megrez.org "And remember, it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that certain je ne sais quois" -- Peter Schickele From bio_phy at hotmail.com Sun Aug 3 21:31:06 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 23:31:06 -0500 Subject: Surefire Way To Build A Fast Career And Become The Hot New Writer Message-ID: http://www.asimovs.com/discus/messages/2/997.html?1059675803 I came across an interesting (if unsettling) thread that claims to have the formula for becoming the latest Hot New Writer sci-fi author. They didn't add Orson Scott Card to this list, but his story would be the same. Unless I'm missing a body of short fiction that I'm unaware of, didn't SKZB jump pretty much straight into novels with J? If so, he would seem to have become the Hot New Writer early-on just on the basis of his novels. Has he commented before on how he got that first sale? Is this already addressed somewhere in an archive? Regards, johne (phy) cook blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com forum: http://forum.instagiber.com/index.php?h=1&pf=268 stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Aug 4 09:47:56 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 09:47:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wee off topic...Re: if you're thinking of buying LoCB online... Message-ID: <200308041647.h74GluI00079@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > http://booksense.com/ will let you order books online so you may pick > them up at independent bookstores near you. I just ordered it and > i'll be picking it up as soon as they let me know it's there (the site > says it'll be 1-5 days; i hope it's accurate). And, if you're near the city, and need a good independent bookstore to pick one up at, a friend of mine just opened up her bookstore in San Francisco on Valencia St. Valencia Street Books, I believe is the name, and it's between 16th and 17th. And the owner is a Brust Fan, so how could one go wrong? Chris "The morning cup of coffee has an exhilaration about it which the cheering influence of the afternoon or evening cup of tea cannot be expected to reproduce." ~ Oliver Wedell Holmes, Sr. - "Over the Teacups" (1891) From bio_phy at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 11:31:34 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 13:31:34 -0500 Subject: OT: The Demolished Man coming to big screen! Message-ID: http://breezeway.blogspot.com/2003_08_03_breezeway_archive.html#106001674868797996 I can't contain my excitement! The Demolished Man by Alfred Bester is one of my favorite Sci Fi books of all time, and is the winner of the very first Hugo award. Alfred Bester was a brilliant writer and I stumbled across this book in my Dad's library when I was growing up. This could very well be Blade Runner for the paranormal if handled correctly. Here's the scoop from ComingSoon.net: "Andrew Dominik (Chopper) has come aboard to develop and direct Paramount Pictures' The Demolished Man. Based on the late science-fiction author Alfred Bester's best-selling book of the same name, the project is about a future society where telepaths are a recognized group of society and often used to detect crimes before they happen. Because of their existence, crime is at an all-time low, and there hasn't been a murder in more than 70 years. When a wealthy businessman decides to murder his rival, bribing a high-ranking telepath to help him cover his tracks, a telepathic cop is brought in to investigate. Figuring out who committed the crime is easy, proving the businessman's guilt is more problematic and a battle of wits ensues between the two. No writers or producers are attached to the project as of yet. Dominik will oversee the development of the script." johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com forum: http://forum.instagiber.com/index.php?h=1&pf=268 stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From greyw01f at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 18:07:20 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 01:07:20 +0000 Subject: Mario the Mystery Message-ID: --Come on, don't give away the BIG secret MARIO IS BRUST HIMSELF!!!! ;P so...I find myself out of the loop. What recent titles has our esteemed author released? (I'm too broke to afford the hc copies, and am waiting for paper back) Which is out, Paths of the Dead or Lord of Castle Black, or are they the same book, or is one a series name and the other the specific title? And what is the "new" one? Spirits in the wires? Does that concern Adrilankha, despite it's non-adrilankan title? Jon _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From greyw01f at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 18:24:06 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 01:24:06 +0000 Subject: Mario the Mystery Message-ID: By the way, I was always curious about the House of the Phoenix. It says that a Phoenix is only recognized as a True Phoenix if a phoenix is seen to fly overhead at the time of the child's birth. 1) What time frame are we looking at? From beginning of labour to end? >From the complete extraction of the child from the mother? Anywhere within a week of birth? 2) What happens to those who do not have a phoenix do a fly-by? Do they join the Jhereg, or do they become Houseless, or what? Jon _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Aug 4 19:30:55 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 21:30:55 -0500 Subject: Hmm... Message-ID: <20030805023055.GH9964@infodancer.org> Dictated: Due to the disastrous dearth of distinguished discourse and deliberately Dragaerean distinction displayed directly by the dominant delection of the discussion-forum domain, I am distended, distorted, distant and despondent; the distraction of this dire dirgeous description descends the depths of the darkest drama. Has the book been dastardly dissed by the damnable desires of diaphanous direct-marketing diacriticals? Did the diameter of our distress deceptively delimit the direction of discussion to detract? Translation: Nobody is talking about the new book, and it's making me sad. Do people just not have the book yet? -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From pulmon at comcast.net Mon Aug 4 19:36:01 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 22:36:01 -0400 Subject: Hmm... In-Reply-To: <20030805023055.GH9964@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <8DB7CA2B-C6ED-11D7-9472-0003938F1608@comcast.net> I pre-ordered mine from Amazon and the web says I should have it next week some time... Ken On Monday, August 4, 2003, at 10:30 PM, Matthew Hunter wrote: > From: Matthew Hunter > Date: Mon Aug 4, 2003 10:30:55 PM US/Eastern > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Hmm... > > Dictated: Due to the disastrous dearth of distinguished > discourse and deliberately Dragaerean distinction > displayed directly by the dominant delection of the > discussion-forum domain, I am distended, distorted, distant and > despondent; the distraction of this dire dirgeous description > descends the depths of the darkest drama. Has the book been > dastardly dissed by the damnable desires of diaphanous > direct-marketing diacriticals? Did the diameter of our distress > deceptively delimit the direction of discussion to detract? > > Translation: Nobody is talking about the new book, and it's > making me sad. Do people just not have the book yet? From jalipaz at stanford.edu Mon Aug 4 19:36:27 2003 From: jalipaz at stanford.edu (Julie Alipaz) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 19:36:27 -0700 Subject: Hmm... In-Reply-To: <20030805023055.GH9964@infodancer.org> References: <20030805023055.GH9964@infodancer.org> Message-ID: > > >Translation: Nobody is talking about the new book, and it's >making me sad. Do people just not have the book yet? > Monterey Ca ----BACKORDERED no one in the area has it jaa From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Mon Aug 4 16:38:06 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 19:38:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Hmm... Message-ID: <3497747.1060051086513.JavaMail.nobody@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> -------Original Message------- From: Matthew Hunter Sent: 08/04/03 10:30 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Hmm... > Translation: Nobody is talking about the new book, and it's > making me sad. Do people just not have the book yet? Pretty much. I'm not getting mine until sometime next week. I don't know if that means that it was delivered late to wherever Amazon distributes from, or if you and a couple of others who have mentioned having the book are cooler than me and could get early copies... Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~jhereg69 From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Aug 4 19:59:41 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 19:59:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: <3497747.1060051086513.JavaMail.nobody@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <3497747.1060051086513.JavaMail.nobody@kermit.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: I've been poking around in _TPG_ and noticed two things I'd missed before: Shortly after we meet Tazendra, she has a brief duel with a Hawklord. He puts up a pretty meagre defense. I don't in retrospect understand how T could bother with one wimpy Hawklord. Later we see her provoke a Dragon whom she doesn't deign to fight alone by asking him to find a few friends. On pg 30 there's a quibble about forts and fortresses which I hadn't noticed is a clever crude joke. This follows a paragraph in which it seems to be implied that there can be more than one Emperor per reign. Also, for comparison, Khaavren is 95 when he meets Aerich et al. He seems to be entirely adult at this point, while his son at a somewhat older age (I think) still seems adolescent. I would have thought that people have to grow up faster during the Interregnum. Perhaps a consequence of character or the relative wealth and protectiveness of their parents... From greyw01f at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 20:46:33 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 03:46:33 +0000 Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ Message-ID: I think I can help with this one. I think Tazendra's actions can be explained by a couple possible things: 1) The opponents in question might have had didn't social rank or titles that might have caused Tazendra to give the Hawklord the honour of a duel, but not the Dragon. 2) It was more insulting to the Dragon to a) deny him a fight and b) do so on the grounds that 1 dragon wasn't enough for her to consider the effort. In this way she maintains a superiority without drawing sword, which we all know is better than doing so by drawing the sword (He's taken x number of colours without drawing sword, "Dragon") I'm not certain where you get the idea that there's more than one emperor per reign, but let me forward the hypothesis nonentheless that this may occur when certain houses are in power. Can you really imagine anything but a democratic government when the Teckla are in power? Would not the orb be under the command and at the use of many men/women at once? As to your last point, people grow up slower or faster according to nature/nurture rules. Jon Carey _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From djshathe at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 20:59:04 2003 From: djshathe at hotmail.com (Dejin Shathe) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 13:59:04 +1000 Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ Message-ID: >From: "Jon Carey" >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ >Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 03:46:33 +0000 > >I think I can help with this one. > >I think Tazendra's actions can be explained by a couple possible things: >1) The opponents in question might have had didn't social rank or titles >that might have caused Tazendra to give the Hawklord the honour of a duel, >but not the Dragon. 2) It was more insulting to the Dragon to a) deny him a >fight and b) do so on the grounds that 1 dragon wasn't enough for her to >consider the effort. In this way she maintains a superiority without >drawing sword, which we all know is better than doing so by drawing the >sword (He's taken x number of colours without drawing sword, "Dragon") On top of all that, the Hawklord was cheating her at three copper mud. Such an action could not go unpunished - and unfortunately for the Hawk, a Dzur really only has the one method of slapping someone on the wrist... -Dejin- "It is a fool's prerogative to utter truths that no-one else will speak." > _________________________________________________________________ ninemsn Extra Storage is now available. Get five times more storage - 10MB in your Hotmail account. Click here http://join.msn.com/ From jazzfish at softhome.net Mon Aug 4 21:16:13 2003 From: jazzfish at softhome.net (Tucker) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 00:16:13 -0400 Subject: Multi-emperor (was Re: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20030805000702.00ae05b8@pro.softhome.net> >I'm not certain where you get the idea that there's more than one emperor >per reign, but let me forward the hypothesis nonentheless that this may >occur when certain houses are in power. Can you really imagine anything >but a democratic government when the Teckla are in power? Would not the >orb be under the command and at the use of many men/women at once? Serial, not parallel, emperors. Which I'd certainly believe. The Cycle has been known to turn prior to the death of an Emperor; it would make sense that the death of an Emperor wouldn't necessarily signal the turning of the Cycle. Plus in I believe _Taltos_, in the course of Vlad's mocking of the Dragaeran's insistence that 'seventeen is the mystic number,' he mentions that the longest amount of time a House can hold the Orb is seventeen-cubed years. This works out to 4913, rather longer than the lifespan of even the more ancient Dragareans (Sethra notwithstanding). Oh, and if David S. Cargo ('who tried to help me with palace architecture' according to the Acknowledgements) isn't the Lord of Snails (maker of 'certain comments' regarding forts/fortresses), I will eat my copy of _Phoenix Guards_. ---- "I can't think of much worse than spending a lifetime doing something that isn't what you want to do." --Neil Gaiman, 2003-05-18 From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Aug 4 21:22:16 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 21:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: She could have fought him poniard vs sword. She could have called out both Hawklords. She could have picked him up out of his chair a la Porthos and slapped him around. In any case, from what little I know about courtly behavior, a knight has to organize his existence in such a way as to avoid getting in situations where he can be insulted by inferiors he can't chastise. Perhaps here T audibly speculated about hiring a Teckla to thrash the Hawklord, since a cardsharp cannot be a gentleman and she can't be expected to correct a commoner, but Paarfi wouldn't print such an insult to a member of his House (and note that later T kills her patrol partner over an insult to a Hawklord...) On Tue, 5 Aug 2003, Dejin Shathe wrote: > > >From: "Jon Carey" > >To: dragaera at dragaera.info > >Subject: Re: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ > >Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 03:46:33 +0000 > > > >I think I can help with this one. > > > >I think Tazendra's actions can be explained by a couple possible things: > >1) The opponents in question might have had didn't social rank or titles > >that might have caused Tazendra to give the Hawklord the honour of a duel, > >but not the Dragon. 2) It was more insulting to the Dragon to a) deny him a > >fight and b) do so on the grounds that 1 dragon wasn't enough for her to > >consider the effort. In this way she maintains a superiority without > >drawing sword, which we all know is better than doing so by drawing the > >sword (He's taken x number of colours without drawing sword, "Dragon") > > On top of all that, the Hawklord was cheating her at three copper mud. Such > an action could not go unpunished - and unfortunately for the Hawk, a Dzur > really only has the one method of slapping someone on the wrist... > > -Dejin- > > > > "It is a fool's prerogative to utter truths that no-one else will speak." > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > ninemsn Extra Storage is now available. Get five times more storage - 10MB > in your Hotmail account. Click here http://join.msn.com/ > > From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Aug 4 21:36:56 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 21:36:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Multi-emperor (was Re: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20030805000702.00ae05b8@pro.softhome.net> References: <5.1.0.14.1.20030805000702.00ae05b8@pro.softhome.net> Message-ID: > Plus in I believe _Taltos_, in the course of Vlad's mocking of the > Dragaeran's insistence that 'seventeen is the mystic number,' he mentions > that the longest amount of time a House can hold the Orb is seventeen-cubed > years. This works out to 4913, rather longer than the lifespan of even the > more ancient Dragareans (Sethra notwithstanding). I cite the example of the SiG, who as of _TPotD_ had been famous for three Cycles, and who is still going strong in Vlad's time. I think a Cycle is about 10k years, so she's presumably upwards of 20k. Perhaps only sorcerers reach this age, but perhaps a few Athyra get booted this way - and perhaps the Orb is live-prolonging as well as -protecting. Presumably an Athyra emperor is difficult to overthrow - perhaps even more so a Dragon emperor who's a good sorcerer - so this rule might come into effect more often than you think. > Oh, and if David S. Cargo ('who tried to help me with palace architecture' > according to the Acknowledgements) isn't the Lord of Snails (maker of > 'certain comments' regarding forts/fortresses), I will eat my copy of > _Phoenix Guards_. I bow in your general direction. From hans117 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 21:37:22 2003 From: hans117 at yahoo.com (Hans Schweitzer) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 21:37:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Phoenix (was Re: Mario the Mystery) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030805043722.94408.qmail@web13808.mail.yahoo.com> Jon Carey wrote: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Aug 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > >Shortly after we meet Tazendra, she has a brief duel with a Hawklord. >He puts up a pretty meagre defense. I don't in retrospect understand >how T could bother with one wimpy Hawklord. Later we see her provoke >a Dragon whom she doesn't deign to fight alone by asking him to find >a few friends. > I believe I have an explanation. Indeed, if you are willing to read on, you will see that I have two, and if you so wish it, I believe that with some effort I might in fact be able to bring forth a third. So if you wish to see these famous explanations, please be so kind as to read on. Tazendra, you perceive, is a Dzur. That is, she was born a Dzur, and raised a Dzur, and no doubt was trained in the art of the sword by another Dzur. She is bold, and she tends to leap into action with a certain reckless abandon. However, this does not prevent her from thinking about her actions afterwards, and perhaps resolving to make certain changes to said behavior depending upon her thoughts. That was not the explanation, but merely the background. The following is the actual first explanation: I believe that when we first see her in that inn, she had just started out to search for her destiny. She had not yet fought any true duels, but merely sparred with her teacher(s). No doubt her teacher(s) had impressed upon her that as a Dzur, she must always be aware how much better she was than the other Houses at the fighting, but I can easily see her forgetting this in the excitement of her first true fight for her honor, which had, after all, been grievously insulted. However, she easily defeated her opponent, and I suspect that as she pondered her easy win, she remembered her teacher's admonitions as to the proper behavior for a Dzur, and resolved to pay better attention to the Dzur credo the next time an opportunity for a duel came up. Thus, the next time she had a chance to play, she mindfully and graciously offered her opponent a greater advantage against her. The second explanation, which you may prefer since it does not require any assumption of Tazendra's neophytehood in the realm of deuling, is simply as follows: When she first dueled, she wished to win, and to let others see her win, but winning was her primary goal in that instance (also, it occurs to me that since the stakes were so low - a non-fatal duel - she scorned to offer any advantage to her opponent). The second time, though, she had a specific goal in not merely winning, but in addition, she wished to strongly impress the handsome young Hawklord who had happened to catch her eye. Naturally, she wished to increase the odds against her so that her eventual success would be all the more impressive, so she suggested to her opponent that he gather some of his friends to help oppose her, no doubt casting amorous glances at her paramour all the while. The third explanation is one I believe you have heard me make before, which is to say, to keep in mind that all this is coming third or fourth hand from a narrator who does not so much apologize for his lack of complete accuracy, indeed, for his total unreliability, but rather, he unabashadly revels in it. History, indeed! Bah! From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Aug 4 23:16:14 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:16:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > On Mon, 4 Aug 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > >I don't in retrospect understand how T could bother with one wimpy > >Hawklord. ... > ... No doubt her teacher(s) had impressed upon her that as a Dzur, she > must always be aware how much better she was than the other Houses at > fighting, but I can easily see her forgetting this in the excitement > of her first true fight for her honor, which had, after all, been > grievously insulted. I don't see her as very excited. Furthermore, if this is her first fight, I would imagine she's thought about it as much as an old-fashioned woman her first wedding and wouldn't allow the Hawklord caterer to, uhh. Well, you get my point. > However, she easily defeated her opponent, and I suspect that as she > pondered Here I get stuck on explanation #1. > The second time, though, she had a specific goal in not merely winning, > but in addition, she wished to strongly impress the handsome young > Hawklord who had happened to catch her eye. Naturally, she wished to > increase the odds against her so that her eventual success would be > all the more impressive, so she suggested to her opponent that he > gather some of his friends to help oppose her, no doubt casting > amorous glances at her paramour all the while. While I would agree re the glances, as it happens she didn't even manage to draw her sword in this instance, using a flashstone instead (whether this is acceptable in the Dzur code I don't care to speculate). Also, it's my feeling that this is simply her m.o. and indeed the standard Dzur m.o., which they presumably imbibe with their tiger milk. > The third explanation is one I believe you have heard me make before, > which is to say, to keep in mind that all this is coming third or > fourth hand from a narrator who does not so much apologize for his > lack of complete accuracy, indeed, for his total unreliability, but > rather, he unabashadly revels in it. History, indeed! Yeah, see my later post for a biased-Paarfi take on this particular point. Care to join the Sethra&Aliera-framed-Mario camp? From dreadstar at bigpond.com Tue Aug 5 02:05:43 2003 From: dreadstar at bigpond.com (dreadstar) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 19:05:43 +1000 Subject: OT: The Demolished Man coming to big screen! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030805190408.00bc34b8@mail.bigpond.com> Alfred? Bester? That's the name of that little creep who worked for Psycorp in Babylon5! I don't suppose this is a co-incidence, is it? At 01:31 PM 4/08/2003 -0500, you wrote: >http://breezeway.blogspot.com/2003_08_03_breezeway_archive.html#106001674868797996 >I can't contain my excitement! The Demolished Man by Alfred Bester is one >of my favorite Sci Fi books of all time, and is the winner of the very >first Hugo award. Alfred Bester was a brilliant writer and I stumbled >across this book in my Dad's library when I was growing up. This could >very well be Blade Runner for the paranormal if handled correctly. > >Here's the scoop from ComingSoon.net: >"Andrew Dominik (Chopper) has come aboard to develop and direct Paramount >Pictures' The Demolished Man. > >Based on the late science-fiction author Alfred Bester's best-selling book >of the same name, the project is about a future society where telepaths >are a recognized group of society and often used to detect crimes before >they happen. Because of their existence, crime is at an all-time low, and >there hasn't been a murder in more than 70 years. When a wealthy >businessman decides to murder his rival, bribing a high-ranking telepath >to help him cover his tracks, a telepathic cop is brought in to >investigate. Figuring out who committed the crime is easy, proving the >businessman's guilt is more problematic and a battle of wits ensues >between the two. > _____________________________________________________ "I'm not expendable, I'm not stupid, and I'm not going" _____________________________________________________ From goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU Tue Aug 5 02:33:35 2003 From: goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (David Goldfarb) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 02:33:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: The Demolished Man coming to big screen! Message-ID: <200308050933.h759XZg22578@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> >Alfred? Bester? That's the name of that little creep who worked for >Psycorp in Babylon5! I don't suppose this is a co-incidence, is it? When the character was introduced JMS was quite open about the name being an homage to the author of _The Demolished Man_. That's also been established as canon for the series, albeit in the novels. (A fairly obscure B5 trivia question: what was Alfred Bester's birth name?) -- David Goldfarb <*>|"Think of me as a brief electromagnetic anomaly goldfarb at ocf.berkeley.edu | who told you some true things for your own good." goldfarb at csua.berkeley.edu |-- Babylon 5, "Day of the Dead" From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Tue Aug 5 06:38:51 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:38:51 -0400 Subject: Mario the Mystery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030805133851.GA85030@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 01:07:20AM +0000, Jon Carey wrote: > --Come on, don't give away the BIG secret > > MARIO IS BRUST HIMSELF!!!! They're all Brust. You didn't know? :-) From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Tue Aug 5 06:48:22 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 09:48:22 -0400 Subject: Phoenix (was Re: Mario the Mystery) In-Reply-To: <20030805043722.94408.qmail@web13808.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030805043722.94408.qmail@web13808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3F2FB5A6.9010904@earthlink.net> I like the idea of the remaining Phoenix mating with the gods; it takes care of the crossbreed problem (although, if a phoenix flies overhead when a supposed crossbreed is born, would the crossbreed still be a crossbreed? I'd imagine he would have to be accepted as full Phoenix). Perhaps the Phoenix gene is so dominant that you wouldn't have a crossbreed... Who knows? I have a feeling that there is a parallel to the legend of the phoenix; it dies and is mystically reborn; somehow, even when the House faces extinction, it can mystically come back. Whether this is because of a dominant gene or the, um, intervention, of the gods, or some other possibility we haven't considered remains to be seen. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From greyw01f at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 07:31:02 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 14:31:02 +0000 Subject: Phoenix (was Re: Mario the Mystery) Message-ID: As to your reply on point 1) I think you're probably right--while Steven Brust mentions that a Phoenix isn't accepted unless a phoenix flys by overhead at the time of the birth, he says nothing at all of the frequency of this not happening. Perhaps it is a sorcerous connection, and the lack of a fly over is brought about by extremely unlucky circumstances. For Question 2, I have just been struck by a most interesting idea. Wouldn't it be interesting if Phoenix (Phoenices?) always had Eastern lovers, sometimes as acutal lovers, sometimes using the title just as an excuse to be near the Phoenix in question--but the Easterners were always witches who could summon, via witchcraft, an actual phoenix bird to be present at the time of birth. We know that both male and female easterners can be witches and therefore can call familiars, and therefore can commune with animals. As to their house enemies, I don't see the Phoenix having enemies except by circumstance. Think of the magical creatures here, and realize what that means for the house. What in mythology kills a Phoenix? A Chimaera? A Basilisk? A Griffin, Harpy, Cockatrice or Giant? Or perhaps a Dragon...No it doesn't seem to me that phoenix (phoenices?) have natural enemies, perse, but are the victims of conflicting interests, as in FHYA. I find it odd that House Phoenix, to put a little bit of a Herbertian phrasing to the nomenclature, has not been the target of more political intrigues that bring the house to near extinction. Political creatures have no natural allies--everyone else is a natural enemy, and the only way to survive is to make alliances of convenience which may at some point or another become INconvenient. So with all the intriguing going on, it's a wonder there's a House Phoenix at all. As to easterners breeding with Phoenix. I think that this is unlikely merely because recessive traits tend to out. If you have a Phoenix who has dominant Phoenix genes and recessive easterner genes, all you need is another set of easterner genes to make those recessive genes expressed. Needless to say, an easterner, or at least, eastern traits appearing in the noblest house in the empire would cause a massive, and I mean MASSIVE scandal. On the other hand, seeing as how all the houses are descended from Easterners to begin with, perhaps the Dragaerans just don't realize that the traits that they find most noble (ie, those of the Phoenix) come about because of breeding with Easterners. But still, I don't really see this happening. As to the cycle, I have no idea how Brust is going to get out of this one. (I haven't read LoCB or PotD whichever one is out, because I can't afford the hardcover) My best guess is that they release a soul from deathsgate and allow it to breed with the one remaining Phoenix. But even that is a band-aid solution that would need to be constantly repeated. Jon Carey _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From greyw01f at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 07:37:31 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 14:37:31 +0000 Subject: Phoenix (was Re: Mario the Mystery) Message-ID: Yeah, the mating with gods idea was really cool--that seems to work quite well. We know it can happen (ahem, Aliera) and that it produces perfectly viable members of whatever house the human was. But again, I also like the mystical explanation. Perhaps, when House Phoenix lies in ashes, it will be born from the fire of those ashes and rise again. Perhaps when there are no more Phoenix left, various children in various houses will have phoenix fly overhead at the time of their birth, thus removing them from the house of their birth and placing them in House Phoenix. That could actually work very well, as it means the noblest house in the Empire is therefore a combination of all the houses, and (probably) expresses all the best traits of each house. Sufficient interbreeding of these reborn Phoenix would probably rarify those traits to complete the House. Jon _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From mam at theworld.com Tue Aug 5 09:32:42 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:32:42 -0400 Subject: Everything can be blamed on Vlad -- or, which house? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030729192016.00bb7d90@mail.bigpond.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Jul 2003, dreadstar wrote: #No, I was referring more to the number of books. I don't know too many #series that can go for that many books, and retain their focus all the way #through. The Gor series was the only one I could refer to off the cuff as #being of such a size. (25? 30? ). Not that I don't think he (SB) couldn't #do it. Given the way that each books title is included in some way in the #body of the book, then it could be said that he has an effective focusing #mechanism. Also, Steve likes to write in different styles; not just Vlad vs. Paarfi, but the different styles in even the Vladiad (nice name). That should help. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Aug 5 09:38:35 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:38:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hmm... Message-ID: <200308051638.h75GcYI18495@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Translation: Nobody is talking about the new book, and it's > making me sad. Do people just not have the book yet? No, I don't yet. Which means I'm forced to skip over any posts discussing it, as I refuse to know any more about it than I already do until I read it myself. Of course, by the time I read it, the discussions here may be over, but oh well.... I'm going to try for this weekend, because I just reread Paths and am jonesing for a Brust-Fix (It's kinda like the Purple Crack in its addiction, isn't it?:) Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From greyw01f at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 09:45:17 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 16:45:17 +0000 Subject: Hmm... Message-ID: can someone please confirm for me what specifically people mean by "new book"? I know of the Paths of the Dead, but I keep hearing reference to the Lord of Castle Black (or vice versa, I can't remember) but now there's this other one that I hear about... Can someone say what SB's books have been past Issola? Jon _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Aug 5 09:51:26 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 09:51:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mario the Mystery Message-ID: <200308051651.h75GpPI20950@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > MARIO IS BRUST HIMSELF!!!! If he is, I think Aliera would have noticed at this point, as I don't believe she shares Zerika's "thing" for Easterners.... > so...I find myself out of the loop. What recent titles has our esteemed > author released? (I'm too broke to afford the hc copies, and am waiting for > paper back) > > Which is out, Paths of the Dead or Lord of Castle Black, or are they the > same book, or is one a series name and the other the specific title? > > And what is the "new" one? Spirits in the wires? Does that concern > Adrilankha, despite it's non-adrilankan title? As I didn't see anyone respond to this, I'll go ahead. _The Viscount of Adrilankha_ is, technically, Steve's "newest" book, however it's split up into three volumes--the first being _The Paths of the Dead_, which came out last Novemeber, and the second being _The Lord of Castle Black_ which is out sometime this month, and better be soon, before I start traipsing around the Bay Area in a huff, mouthing obscenities to any passerby who has the unfortunate luck to be near me. If you'd like a listing, I suggest going to the following site, part of the Cracks and Shards website, which is excellent: http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/books.html This page lists books and ISBN numbers, which you can then give to your independent bookstore to order them. (What?) Cheers! Chris "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, son." - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm From mam at theworld.com Tue Aug 5 09:53:09 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:53:09 -0400 Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Aug 2003, Philip Hart wrote: #On pg 30 [...] # This follows a paragraph in which it #seems to be implied that there can be more than one Emperor per reign. Yeah, that seems to be the case. A reign lasts from 17^2 to 17^3 years = 289 to 4913.* The latter number is longer than the longest Dragaeran lifetime we have any evidence for. If things are stable and prosperous under, say, the first Chreotha Emperor of the Eighth Cycle, why shouldn't another Chreotha succeed gya? *http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/seventeen.html#Time Taltos p. 96, mass market pb -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Aug 5 10:15:32 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 10:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Aug 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Mon, 4 Aug 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > #On pg 30 [...] > # This follows a paragraph in which it > #seems to be implied that there can be more than one Emperor per reign. > > Yeah, that seems to be the case. A reign lasts from 17^2 to 17^3 years > = 289 to 4913.* The latter number is longer than the longest Dragaeran > lifetime we have any evidence for. If things are stable and prosperous > under, say, the first Chreotha Emperor of the Eighth Cycle, why > shouldn't another Chreotha succeed gya? Please see elsewhere in this thread for my assertion that 4.9k years is not in fact longer than Dragaeran lifetimes. Presumably the next House would have something to say about the non-transfer. If nothing else they would have to go through a series of heirs apparent, which would likely lead to tension. From agrajag at dragaera.net Tue Aug 5 10:16:01 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 05 Aug 2003 13:16:01 -0400 Subject: Hmm... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1060103761.2160.2.camel@loiosh> On Tue, 2003-08-05 at 12:45, Jon Carey wrote: > can someone please confirm for me what specifically people mean by "new > book"? I know of the Paths of the Dead, but I keep hearing reference to the > Lord of Castle Black (or vice versa, I can't remember) but now there's this > other one that I hear about... > > Can someone say what SB's books have been past Issola? There's The Paths of the Deads, which was released a few months back. Then there's THe Lord of Castle Black, which is/will be released this month. And upcoming is The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain. Together, these three books make up the three volumes of The Viscount of Andrilankha, which is the third volume of the Khaavren Romances (The Phoenix Guards, Five Hundred Years After, and The Viscount of Andrilankha). I hope that explains it and didn't confuse things to horribly. From sraun at fireopal.org Tue Aug 5 10:18:07 2003 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:18:07 -0500 Subject: Multi-emperor (was Re: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20030805000702.00ae05b8@pro.softhome.net> References: <5.1.0.14.1.20030805000702.00ae05b8@pro.softhome.net> Message-ID: <20030805171807.GB19472@fireopal.org> On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 12:16:13AM -0400, Tucker wrote: > Oh, and if David S. Cargo ('who tried to help me with palace architecture' > according to the Acknowledgements) isn't the Lord of Snails (maker of > 'certain comments' regarding forts/fortresses), I will eat my copy of > _Phoenix Guards_. FWIW, he uses escargot for an amazing number of nicknamish things. -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org From mam at theworld.com Tue Aug 5 10:24:16 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:24:16 -0400 Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Aug 2003, Philip Hart wrote: #Please see elsewhere in this thread for my assertion that #4.9k years is not in fact longer than Dragaeran lifetimes. Yeah, saw it after posting. #Presumably the next House would have something to say about the #non-transfer. Why? You're assuming that "one reign, one Emperor" is the rule. Why should it be? -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Tue Aug 5 10:29:48 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 13:29:48 -0400 Subject: Multi-emperor (was Re: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_) In-Reply-To: <20030805171807.GB19472@fireopal.org> References: <5.1.0.14.1.20030805000702.00ae05b8@pro.softhome.net> <20030805171807.GB19472@fireopal.org> Message-ID: <3F2FE98C.20502@earthlink.net> Scott Raun wrote: >On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 12:16:13AM -0400, Tucker wrote: > > >>Oh, and if David S. Cargo ('who tried to help me with palace architecture' >>according to the Acknowledgements) isn't the Lord of Snails (maker of >>'certain comments' regarding forts/fortresses), I will eat my copy of >>_Phoenix Guards_. >> >> > >FWIW, he uses escargot for an amazing number of nicknamish things. > Really? I got the Lord of Snails (after Tucker pointed it out, of course), but I haven't noticed any others... Jose, curious -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Aug 5 10:49:09 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 10:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Aug 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Tue, 5 Aug 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > #Please see elsewhere in this thread for my assertion that > #4.9k years is not in fact longer than Dragaeran lifetimes. > > Yeah, saw it after posting. I'll take that as a thumbs-horizontal. > #Presumably the next House would have something to say about the > #non-transfer. > Why? You're assuming that "one reign, one Emperor" is the rule. Why > should it be? Well, it seems simplest, and as I briefly argued above the multireign rule would lead to tension. And otherwise many reigns might make it to 4.9k. And at the end of _FHYA_ we see Aliera claim the Orb - but if the emperor's death doesn't necessarily mean anything, this action seems a bit odd, or at least might well be discussed later. And we likely would have known who the designated Phoenix Heir at the time was, as in this scenario it would actually matter. From davids at kithrup.com Tue Aug 5 13:08:47 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:08:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hmm... In-Reply-To: <1060103761.2160.2.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: On 5 Aug 2003, Jag wrote: > >There's The Paths of the Deads, which was released a few months back. >Then there's THe Lord of Castle Black, which is/will be released this >month. >And upcoming is The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain. > You forgot the part where after a certain amount of kerfluffle at Tor, the last book was retitled /Sethra Lavode/. No doubt because Easterners, being speakers of barbarous and uncivilized tounges, fail in their ability to properly enunciate and pronounce the word 'Dzur', which is a sad and lamentable situation that can apparantly only be remedied by choosing a title with simpler phonemes. PS. Amazon.com is your friend: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312855826 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312864787 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0812534174 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312855818 Tor's schedule is also somewhat helpful: http://www.tor.com/schedule.html From mr1 at rcosta.com Tue Aug 5 14:16:33 2003 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 17:16:33 -0400 Subject: Phoenix (was Re: Mario the Mystery) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3F2FE671.26029.1B6031D@localhost> On 5 Aug 2003 at 1:24, Jon Carey wrote > By the way, I was always curious about the House of the Phoenix. It > says that a Phoenix is only recognized as a True Phoenix if a phoenix > is seen to fly overhead at the time of the child's birth. I always figured this was Vlad being sarcastic. (Sort of like my whining that "The Lord of Castle Black" has been out FOREVER and Amazon STILL hasn't shipped mine...). Am I the only one who didn't take his comment seriously? M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From jtoth at megrez.org Tue Aug 5 14:44:15 2003 From: jtoth at megrez.org (Jim Toth) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:44:15 -0400 Subject: Mario the Mystery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030805214415.GA22713@castor.megrez.org> On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 01:07:20AM +0000, Jon Carey (greyw01f at hotmail.com) said: > And what is the "new" one? Spirits in the wires? No. Well, _Spirits in the Wires_ is *a* new one, but not *the* new one, at least not for the purposes of this list. > Does that concern Adrilankha, despite it's non-adrilankan title? Certainly not, as it's not by Brust. :-) It just happened to come out at the same time from the same publisher as _The Lord of Castle Black_. I believe your confusion comes from the earlier post I quote below, wherein Phillip Hart referred to SitW by author, after which I referred to it by title: I said: >Philip Hart (philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU) said: >> For what it's worth, Charles de Lint has a new Tor hc coming out >> today but not yet released, so it's not some conspiracy against just >> us. > >"Not yet released"? I got both books Friday morning about 11am, >muahahahaha. (I've finished _The Lord of Castle Black_ and plan to >start _Spirits in the Wires_ in a few minutes.) (In fact, at that point I started re-reading tLoCB and still haven't started the de Lint.) From hans117 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 16:07:24 2003 From: hans117 at yahoo.com (Hans Schweitzer) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 16:07:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030805230724.77606.qmail@web13808.mail.yahoo.com> >(A fairly obscure B5 trivia question: what was Alfred Bester's birth name?) Dude! It was totally Steven Kevin Dexter! Yes? ? MJ, not yet readsome of LoCB From jalipaz at stanford.edu Tue Aug 5 17:46:31 2003 From: jalipaz at stanford.edu (Julie Alipaz) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:46:31 -0700 Subject: new book Message-ID: has anyone had any luck getting the book from amazon.com ? meaning castle black..... jaa From frank at exit.com Tue Aug 5 19:11:42 2003 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 19:11:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200308060211.h762BgdA036624@realtime.exit.com> Julie Alipaz wrote: > has anyone had any luck getting the book from amazon.com ? meaning > castle black..... Nope, not yet. Still listed as "not yet available." I'll give it a few more days, then cancel and pick it up at Borders. Feh. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From pulmon at comcast.net Tue Aug 5 19:31:54 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 22:31:54 -0400 Subject: new book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <24F6502A-C7B6-11D7-A713-0003938F1608@comcast.net> I got a notice that I should receive my copy August 11-12. Ken On Tuesday, August 5, 2003, at 08:46 PM, Julie Alipaz wrote: > has anyone had any luck getting the book from amazon.com ? meaning > castle black..... > > > jaa > From djshathe at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 21:02:40 2003 From: djshathe at hotmail.com (Dejin Shathe) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 14:02:40 +1000 Subject: Amazon Delivery Estimate - LoCB Message-ID: I just went to check my Delivery Estimate at amazon for the new book and I see: Shipping Soon: 1 item - delivery estimate: Dec 31, 1969 Yes, that's right folks, here in Australia, we got the new SKZB book 33 and a half years ago... ...no wonder I've already forgotten what happened. "It is a fool's prerogative to utter truths that no-one else will speak." _________________________________________________________________ ninemsn Extra Storage comes with McAfee Virus Scanning - to keep your Hotmail account and PC safe. Click here http://join.msn.com/ From Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 5 22:57:32 2003 From: Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net (Daemian Spayde) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 22:57:32 -0700 Subject: Amazon Delivery Estimate - LoCB References: Message-ID: <00f501c35bdf$a0becf80$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> Are you sure it didn't come out 34 years ago? Proves once agian that 17 is the true number of the universe (and Australia too!) Daemian, also not part of the LoCB readsome aka Katt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dejin Shathe" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 9:02 PM Subject: Amazon Delivery Estimate - LoCB > I just went to check my Delivery Estimate at amazon for the new book and I > see: > > Shipping Soon: 1 item - delivery estimate: Dec 31, 1969 > > Yes, that's right folks, here in Australia, we got the new SKZB book 33 and > a half years ago... > > ...no wonder I've already forgotten what happened. > > > > > "It is a fool's prerogative to utter truths that no-one else will speak." > > _________________________________________________________________ > ninemsn Extra Storage comes with McAfee Virus Scanning - to keep your > Hotmail account and PC safe. Click here http://join.msn.com/ From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Aug 5 23:01:51 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 23:01:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amazon Delivery Estimate - LoCB In-Reply-To: <00f501c35bdf$a0becf80$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> References: <00f501c35bdf$a0becf80$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> Message-ID: Amazon just forgot about the international date line. On Tue, 5 Aug 2003, Daemian Spayde wrote: > Are you sure it didn't come out 34 years ago? > > Proves once agian that 17 is the true number of the universe (and Australia > too!) > > Daemian, also not part of the LoCB readsome > aka Katt > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dejin Shathe" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 9:02 PM > Subject: Amazon Delivery Estimate - LoCB > > > > I just went to check my Delivery Estimate at amazon for the new book and I > > see: > > > > Shipping Soon: 1 item - delivery estimate: Dec 31, 1969 > > > > Yes, that's right folks, here in Australia, we got the new SKZB book 33 > and > > a half years ago... > > > > ...no wonder I've already forgotten what happened. > > > > > > > > > > "It is a fool's prerogative to utter truths that no-one else will speak." > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > ninemsn Extra Storage comes with McAfee Virus Scanning - to keep your > > Hotmail account and PC safe. Click here http://join.msn.com/ > > From Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 5 23:00:34 2003 From: Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net (Daemian Spayde) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 23:00:34 -0700 Subject: Phoenix References: Message-ID: <011201c35be0$0d90c820$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> Not having read LoCB, and not really sure what the reference to "The Cycle Problem" is, I may be off topic here, but.. Verra mentions that there are, in fact, TWO Phoenix' in existence (PotD Hardback, pg. 193). What are the theories on the 2nd Phoenix? I have my own, but would be interested to hear other thoughts on the subject. Daemian aka Katt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Carey" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 7:31 AM Subject: Re: Phoenix (was Re: Mario the Mystery) > > As to the cycle, I have no idea how Brust is going to get out of this one. > (I haven't read LoCB or PotD whichever one is out, because I can't afford > the hardcover) My best guess is that they release a soul from deathsgate > and allow it to breed with the one remaining Phoenix. But even that is a > band-aid solution that would need to be constantly repeated. > > Jon Carey > > _________________________________________________________________ > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Tue Aug 5 23:09:04 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 23:09:04 -0700 Subject: Phoenix In-Reply-To: <011201c35be0$0d90c820$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> References: <011201c35be0$0d90c820$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Aug 2003 23:00:34 -0700, you wrote: >Not having read LoCB, and not really sure what the reference to "The Cycle >Problem" is, I may be off topic here, but.. > >Verra mentions that there are, in fact, TWO Phoenix' in existence (PotD >Hardback, pg. 193). > >What are the theories on the 2nd Phoenix? I have my own, but would be >interested to hear other thoughts on the subject. > >Daemian >aka Katt > I always thought it was Han Solo..... -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Wed Aug 6 02:18:05 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 02:18:05 -0700 Subject: Phoenix (was Re: Mario the Mystery) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 14:31:02 +0000, you wrote: >As to their house enemies, I don't see the Phoenix having enemies except by >circumstance. Think of the magical creatures here, and realize what that >means for the house. What in mythology kills a Phoenix? A Chimaera? A >Basilisk? A Griffin, Harpy, Cockatrice or Giant? Or perhaps a Dragon...No >it doesn't seem to me that phoenix (phoenices?) have natural enemies, perse, >but are the victims of conflicting interests, as in FHYA. > >I find it odd that House Phoenix, to put a little bit of a Herbertian >phrasing to the nomenclature, has not been the target of more political >intrigues that bring the house to near extinction. Political creatures have >no natural allies--everyone else is a natural enemy, and the only way to >survive is to make alliances of convenience which may at some point or >another become INconvenient. So with all the intriguing going on, it's a >wonder there's a House Phoenix at all. Actually, it's not a wonder at all. The Cycle (as opposed to the cycle) protects the house, just as It protects all the Houses at various times. They're all needed for the Empire to exist. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From tmer at eudoramail.com Wed Aug 6 04:49:41 2003 From: tmer at eudoramail.com (Barbara Baj) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 07:49:41 -0400 Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ Message-ID: If you look again, I think you'll find it's 17 *days* to a month, not 17 weeks. So your numbers are a tad off by that reckoning. - Barbara -- --------- Original Message --------- DATE: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 16:07:24 From: Hans Schweitzer To: dragaera at dragaera.info Cc: > >At this same point they talk about the make up of the callendar. This always surprised me, well just look at this. 30 hours in a day. 5 days a week. 17 weeks in a month. 17 months in a year. (correct me if I got something wrong here.) thats almost 4 earth years in a year. (1445). If you figure it in hours (I'm bored and had a calculator) its 1806.25 >24 hour periods in a year. Does anybody else think this is a really long time? even the "short lived" easterners have life spans 5 times greater than ours. No real point here, just something I picked up the first time I read Taltos or whatever book this is in. I probably mixed something up somewhere that will make me look stupid. I lent my copy of Taltos to my step-brother so I couldn't check. Anyone else care to verify this? > > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software Need a new email address that people can remember Check out the new EudoraMail at http://www.eudoramail.com From greyw01f at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 06:23:09 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 13:23:09 +0000 Subject: Phoenix and Gods Message-ID: As to the second phoenix in PotD, I'm fairly sure that somewhere it's told that her name was Jean Gray or something like that... ;P My actual topic is about the nature of the gods, specifically with regards to their ability to cross-breed with Dragaerans (Adron + Verra =Aliera) The author mentions the difference between how the two races perceive the gods--Dragaerans consider them to be super-powered sorcerors, and Esterners believe them to be something that is a different race entirely, to the end that they become a symbol, a characteristic, which is also close, but still not quite right. (the books mention that it is both and neither). It seems to me, for instance that Sethra is a goddess herself--she is vastly powerful, doesn't seem to be mortal, even before she "died" and what's more, is the embodiment of Dzur Mountain--a symbol for sorcery in its purest form-- the majesty, the mystery and the power. And yet, she is not limited to either of these things. She is her own agent, but works towards a very specific goal that is deeply involved with the success and fortune of the Empire. I think the only reason she isn't labelled a goddess is that she still has yet to step above the physical plain. Verra is concerned with a great many plains of reality. This ability to be in more than one place at the same time is somewhere mentioned as one of the necessary requirements of being a goddess. While it may seem that Sethra has already accomplished this with Kiera, I think she realizes that Kiera is just a test-run, and hasn't boosted her into the realm of divinity, and so Kiera has become a way to pass some time and go where Sethra can't. Verra, on the other hand, can be anywhere her idols are built. They seem to be focus points, beacons/anchors, for her consciousness. But I seem to have lost my original point. The issue is a complicated one, but I think I can quickly explain it. Apparently the gods came along to Dragaera (the planet) with the Jenoine as their servants. I believe it possible, probable in fact, that they were mutated from the breeding stock that populated the planet either before the Jenoine left their destination, or en route to the place--but instead of breeding them with animals, perhaps they cross-bred them with Jenoine, to give them sufficient power to be useful as servants. This allows them to 1) retain a human/dragaeran aspect that the Dragaerans may have found out about, thus their belief that they are simply elevated humans (dragaerans) but also allows them the power of the Jenoine, and entirely alien race whom we know live on different planes at the same time, thus creating the trait that they are symbols as well. Somewhere it is mentioned that Verra is a Demon Goddess because she was controlled by the Jenoine--but this doesn't make sense as *all* the gods were--and yet not all the gods are Demon Gods. Therefore, Verra must have been controlled at some other point--I'm not sure, having not read the book (though I have it now, yay!!!), whether it's explained in PoTD , or whether it will be in LoCB, or SL, but if it hasn't been yet, I think the best bet for an expose would be in SL. It's possible that Verra became a Demon Goddess when she fell in love with Adron (if she did) and if not then, then when she had Aliera. Loving Barlen was no problem--he was a God himself. But loving a human (dragaeran) is an entirely different matter as a human's agenda is entirely different from that of a god--forcing Verra to act (out of love, or maternal instinct) outside her own agenda, and thus making her a Demon Goddess. What do you people think about my theory on the gods---humans, bred with Jenoine? It also explains why so many of them still have trouble with 4 full-fledged Jenoine, and why the Jenoine look at humans the way they do. If their servants are like children, then humans *are* like pets to them. Verra at one point says the Necromancer is better at something than she herself is---this could be equated to humans being like children to the gods--every now and then you'll find a child prodigy who is better at a certain thing than many adults are. But there you have it. What do you guys think? Jon Carey
 
_________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From warlord at dragon.com Wed Aug 6 07:07:16 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:07:16 -0400 Subject: Phoenix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: lazarus [mailto:lazarus33pjf at cox.net] > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 2:09 AM > To: Daemian Spayde > Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Phoenix > > > On Tue, 5 Aug 2003 23:00:34 -0700, you wrote: > > >Not having read LoCB, and not really sure what the reference to > "The Cycle > >Problem" is, I may be off topic here, but.. > > > >Verra mentions that there are, in fact, TWO Phoenix' in existence (PotD > >Hardback, pg. 193). > > > >What are the theories on the 2nd Phoenix? I have my own, but would be > >interested to hear other thoughts on the subject. > > > >Daemian > >aka Katt > > > > I always thought it was Han Solo..... > Nah. If he was the second Phoenix, he would have been Han Duo W It is easier to judge a person's mental capacity by his questions than by his answers. --Le Duc de Levis, "Maxims" From alexx at TheWorld.com Wed Aug 6 07:50:53 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:50:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: from "Philip Hart" at Aug 05, 2003 10:15:32 AM Message-ID: <200308061450.KAA11355218@shell.TheWorld.com> > > On Tue, 5 Aug 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > > > On Mon, 4 Aug 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > #On pg 30 [...] > > # This follows a paragraph in which it > > #seems to be implied that there can be more than one Emperor per reign. This is page 22 in the hardcover. I agree that it strongly implies that "one emperor per Reign" is not the default case, since it specificaly makes mention of this instance. > > Yeah, that seems to be the case. A reign lasts from 17^2 to 17^3 years > > = 289 to 4913.* The latter number is longer than the longest Dragaeran > > lifetime we have any evidence for. If things are stable and prosperous > > under, say, the first Chreotha Emperor of the Eighth Cycle, why > > shouldn't another Chreotha succeed gya? > > Please see elsewhere in this thread for my assertion that > 4.9k years is not in fact longer than Dragaeran lifetimes. 4.9k years *is* longer than a *natural* Dragaeran lifetime. Granted, your theory of the Orb prolonging the emperor's life is not entirely implausible. > Presumably the next House would have something to say about the > non-transfer. If nothing else they would have to go through a > series of heirs apparent, which would likely lead to tension. And said tension occasionally leads to rebellion, which occasionally leads to the turning of the Cycle. All part of the system :-) Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "I went through the necessary ritual embarrassment of declaring myself to be a magician in November of 1993, almost like vaccinating yourself with a mild and controlled form of mental breakdown so that you'll hopefully have sufficient antibodies to fend off the greater madness when it comes." -- Alan Moore in correspondence with Dave Sim about _From Hell_ From alexx at TheWorld.com Wed Aug 6 07:58:30 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:58:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: from "Philip Hart" at Aug 05, 2003 10:49:09 AM Message-ID: <200308061458.KAA11387939@shell.TheWorld.com> > > On Tue, 5 Aug 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > [snip] > And at the end of _FHYA_ we see Aliera claim the Orb - > but if the emperor's death doesn't necessarily mean anything, this > action seems a bit odd, or at least might well be discussed later. But Aliera is with Adron's party, who believe (falsely, as it turns out) that the Cycle is about to turn. Had the Disaster not occurred when it did, no doubt there would have been some "discussion" of this matter :-) > And we likely would have known who the designated Phoenix Heir > at the time was, as in this scenario it would actually matter. On page 266 of _FHYA_, we learn that Princess Loudin (Zerika's mother) is the Phoenix Heir, and Khaavren advises that she flee the city. I suppose that, technically, she *was* Empress for the last year or so of her life. Perhaps, if she had not died of a plague so soon, there might have been a Kana-like proto-empire formed around her. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "Where are we?" "On the floor..." "Is it safe?" "As long as we don't move..." "Nooo problem." -- A surprisingly drunk Roach and Astoria, Cerebus 44. From alexx at TheWorld.com Wed Aug 6 08:00:46 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:00:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: <20030805230724.77606.qmail@web13808.mail.yahoo.com> from "Hans Schweitzer" at Aug 05, 2003 04:07:24 PM Message-ID: <200308061500.LAA11463712@shell.TheWorld.com> [miscalculation of Dragaeran year length snipped] To cut-and-paste from the introductory matter of my Dragaera Timeline: There are 30 hours in a day (PG 142, et al). References are made to hours 'of the morning' and 'after noon', so they have AM and PM as we do, just with 15 hours in each half, not 12. Note that four meals a day is standard (PG 405, 433), so they eat roughly as often as Terrans do. [There are a few references in early books to 24-hour days, but these are almost certainly "translations" on Brust's part.] Hours have 60 minutes (FH 256). Hours and minutes are apparently identical to their Terran counterparts, and were presumably established by the original Terran colonists (see below). There are 17 months in the year, of 17 days each (PG 59). Both days and months are named after the Houses. There may be 'calendar hacks' such as the Terran Leap Year, but none have so far been mentioned, and their impact is likely to be small in any case. This works out to a year of about 8,670 hours, as compared with a Terran year of about 8,736 hours, so the length of the year is almost identical to a Terran year, which fits with various references to Easterner's ages and life expectancies. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx (At the Bad Habit there was some brief discussion of how many things one could do at once. For instance, is it possible to have net access, a job, a social life, and be romantically involved with one or more people? I believe the consensus was "yes, but you don't get to sleep...") -- Sean McGuire From alexx at TheWorld.com Wed Aug 6 08:03:40 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:03:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Phoenix In-Reply-To: <011201c35be0$0d90c820$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> from "Daemian Spayde" at Aug 05, 2003 11:00:34 PM Message-ID: <200308061503.LAA11413341@shell.TheWorld.com> > > Not having read LoCB, and not really sure what the reference to "The Cycle > Problem" is, I may be off topic here, but.. > > Verra mentions that there are, in fact, TWO Phoenix' in existence (PotD > Hardback, pg. 193). > > What are the theories on the 2nd Phoenix? I have my own, but would be > interested to hear other thoughts on the subject. I believe I can say, without it being a spoiler, that LoCB sheds a certain degree of light upon this issue. Your theories may need revising after reading it. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx The problem with unwritten laws is that they're so hard to erase. [Seen on a Nancy Button, http://www.nancybuttons.com/] From TimN at rcn.com Wed Aug 6 08:45:41 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:45:41 -0400 Subject: Phoenix and Gods References: Message-ID: <000a01c35c31$cb907220$d916fea9@ananda> * We are told that Sethra was "once offered godhood" and refused. * We are told that a God is a being who is able to be in more than one place at the same time. * We are told that a Demon is a God (see above definition) who can be *summoned*. * We are told that Gods have different "aspect limitations", or number of "selves" that they can manifest at once. * We are told that once a GoD *allows* him/herself to be summoned, humans would begin to refer to that God as a Demon. We see Aliera summon Verra in _Issola_, and she bitches about it in (dare I say it) a rather Vladish manner. This lends credibility to the theory that Verra's concern for her daughter (or perhaps other mortals in the past?) has given her a personal interest, rather than a professional one -- thus opening her to summoning. My thought is that Sethra is most certainly not a God, and yet, she seems to be developing such tendencies -- unconscious or no -- such as extending a persona "outside" herself: Kiera. I had thought that whatever power exists in Dzur mountain (personified by Iceflame) is responsible for her longevity. Perhaps DM was an ancient Jenoine research facility? Perhaps it was a Serioli burger joint? Perhaps we will find out in _Sethra Lavode_. - T From casey at trinityhartford.org Wed Aug 6 08:55:53 2003 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:55:53 -0400 Subject: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: Phoenix and Gods In-Reply-To: <000a01c35c31$cb907220$d916fea9@ananda> Message-ID: It seems to me that particular item is one worth preserving a modest amount of spoiler protection. One could even make the same statement without naming the alternate persona and avoid spoiling for readers who haven't gotten to it yet. Even Steve has recommended against reading _Orca_ first to avoid learning too much aforehand. From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 09:00:26 2003 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 09:00:26 -0700 Subject: Wherefrom LoCB ? Message-ID: Has anyone on the left bank of the US seen LoCB in any bookstores yet? (facing North, of course) MALADICTIONS!!! on all distributors! The Borders bookstore computer thinks it's not even published yet. James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Aug 6 10:01:24 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:01:24 -0500 Subject: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: Phoenix and Gods In-Reply-To: References: <000a01c35c31$cb907220$d916fea9@ananda> Message-ID: <20030806170124.GE2264@infodancer.org> On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 11:55:53AM -0400, Casey Rousseau wrote: > It seems to me that particular item is one worth preserving a modest amount > of spoiler protection. One could even make the same statement without > naming the alternate persona and avoid spoiling for readers who haven't > gotten to it yet. > Even Steve has recommended against reading _Orca_ first to avoid learning > too much aforehand. I don't have my books with me, but amazon claims Orca has been out since 1996. Even if that's too early (it seems too early to me!) then Dragon came out in 1999. That's either 7 years or 4 years. Either way, that's an obscenely long time to put in spoiler protection. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From den at epia.monger.net Wed Aug 6 10:06:14 2003 From: den at epia.monger.net (Dennis Higbee) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:06:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: Phoenix and Gods In-Reply-To: <20030806170124.GE2264@infodancer.org> References: <000a01c35c31$cb907220$d916fea9@ananda> <20030806170124.GE2264@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 11:55:53AM -0400, Casey Rousseau wrote: > > It seems to me that particular item is one worth preserving a modest amount > > of spoiler protection. One could even make the same statement without > > naming the alternate persona and avoid spoiling for readers who haven't > > gotten to it yet. > > Even Steve has recommended against reading _Orca_ first to avoid learning > > too much aforehand. > > I don't have my books with me, but amazon claims Orca has been > out since 1996. Even if that's too early (it seems too early to > me!) then Dragon came out in 1999. That's either 7 years or 4 > years. Either way, that's an obscenely long time to put in > spoiler protection. It was 1996. And it depends how many people on the list haven't read all the Vlad books. If it's a fairly large subset, then spoiler protection should be very much enforced. -Dennis From warlord at dragon.com Wed Aug 6 10:11:15 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:11:15 -0400 Subject: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: Phoenix and Gods In-Reply-To: <20030806170124.GE2264@infodancer.org> Message-ID: > On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 11:55:53AM -0400, Casey Rousseau > wrote: > > It seems to me that particular item is one worth preserving a > modest amount > > of spoiler protection. One could even make the same statement without > > naming the alternate persona and avoid spoiling for readers who haven't > > gotten to it yet. > > Even Steve has recommended against reading _Orca_ first to > avoid learning > > too much aforehand. > > I don't have my books with me, but amazon claims Orca has been > out since 1996. Even if that's too early (it seems too early to > me!) then Dragon came out in 1999. That's either 7 years or 4 > years. Either way, that's an obscenely long time to put in > spoiler protection. > > I disagree with this. The length of time that a book has been out in no way establishes when a person might discover that book. As an example, lets take a teenager just discovering The Lensman Series. The series has been out what, about 60+ years ? With regard to spoiler space, err on the side caution, I say. W "Even duct tape can't fix a split infinitive." From haerandir at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 10:50:46 2003 From: haerandir at hotmail.com (Jesse Thomas) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 17:50:46 +0000 Subject: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: Phoenix and Gods Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 "Warlord" wrote: > > >I disagree with this. The length of time that a book has been out >in no way establishes when a person might discover that book. As an >example, lets take a teenager just discovering The Lensman Series. >The series has been out what, about 60+ years ? In my experience, that teenager will not sign up for the list until he has read at least a goodly portion of the series. He has no incentive to do otherwise. The last time I checked, the purpose of this list was to discuss the various Dragaera novels. While it is common courtesy to avoid giving out spoilers for the new book in the series, if we extend spoiler coverage to every book SB has ever written, the list can have no non-spoiler content. Anyone who subscribes to a book discussion list has to assume that there will be information about books he hasn't read on that list. If you don't want to see any spoilers at all, then don't subscribe to the list until you're caught up. Jesse Thomas "Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance by blowing stuff up." - B. Potemkin _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From agrajag at dragaera.net Wed Aug 6 11:05:49 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 06 Aug 2003 14:05:49 -0400 Subject: Wherefrom LoCB ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1060193149.2107.2.camel@loiosh> On Wed, 2003-08-06 at 12:00, James Griffin wrote: > Has anyone on the left bank of the US seen LoCB in any bookstores yet? > (facing North, of course) > > MALADICTIONS!!! on all distributors! The Borders bookstore computer thinks > it's not even published yet. > Yes! I achieved Victory here in Raleigh, North Carolina this morning! I had the local B&N call me when it came in. I got the call around 6pm last night, but due to being at work, I couldn't get the book until this morning. But they definately had it. However, it wasn't on the shelf yet. Now all I need is time to read it :) From agrajag at dragaera.net Wed Aug 6 11:08:00 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 06 Aug 2003 14:08:00 -0400 Subject: Wherefrom LoCB ? In-Reply-To: <1060193149.2107.2.camel@loiosh> References: <1060193149.2107.2.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: <1060193280.2107.5.camel@loiosh> On Wed, 2003-08-06 at 14:05, Jag wrote: > On Wed, 2003-08-06 at 12:00, James Griffin wrote: > > Has anyone on the left bank of the US seen LoCB in any bookstores yet? > > (facing North, of course) > > > > MALADICTIONS!!! on all distributors! The Borders bookstore computer thinks > > it's not even published yet. > > > > Yes! I achieved Victory here in Raleigh, North Carolina this morning! Doh! Right after I clicked send, I realized I have my left and right mixed up. Anyways, what I said still applies. LoCB has finally hit North Carolina :) And due to nation-wide distributors, I expect it would hit all bookstores at about the same time. From casey at trinityhartford.org Wed Aug 6 11:14:37 2003 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:14:37 -0400 Subject: Wherefrom LoCB ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: James Griffin wrote: > Has anyone on the left bank of the US seen LoCB in any bookstores yet? > (facing North, of course) Amazon has changed the availability to "Usually ships within 24 hours". Casey From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Aug 6 11:20:10 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:20:10 -0500 Subject: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: Phoenix and Gods In-Reply-To: References: <20030806170124.GE2264@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20030806182010.GF2264@infodancer.org> On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 01:11:15PM -0400, Warlord wrote: > > I don't have my books with me, but amazon claims Orca has been > > out since 1996. Even if that's too early (it seems too early to > > me!) then Dragon came out in 1999. That's either 7 years or 4 > > years. Either way, that's an obscenely long time to put in > > spoiler protection. > I disagree with this. The length of time that a book has been out > in no way establishes when a person might discover that book. As an > example, lets take a teenager just discovering The Lensman Series. > The series has been out what, about 60+ years ? > With regard to spoiler space, err on the side caution, I say. Sure. Let's put a spoiler warning in the list rules. In big, friendly letters: "This mailing list contains spoilers. Read at your own risk." In other words... that way lies spoiler-protecting every single post. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From casey at trinityhartford.org Wed Aug 6 11:24:36 2003 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:24:36 -0400 Subject: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: Phoenix and Gods In-Reply-To: <20030806170124.GE2264@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Matthew wrote: > I don't have my books with me, but Amazon claims Orca has been > out since 1996. Even if that's too early (it seems too early to > me!) then Dragon came out in 1999. That's either 7 years or 4 > years. Either way, that's an obscenely long time to put in > spoiler protection. I'm suggesting that there are ways to say what the poster said without explicitly revealing one of the two big surprises in the entire series to date. We've hashed this quite a bit, I realize and I do not mean to _enforce_ spoiler protection, but as there have been a fair number of newcomers to the list of late, I thought it might be reasonable to remind people of the concept. Jesse Thomas wrote: > The last time I checked, the purpose of this list was to discuss > the various Dragaera novels. While it is common courtesy to avoid > giving out spoilers for the new book in the series, if we extend > spoiler coverage to every book SB has ever written, the list can > have no non-spoiler content. Yup. That has been an oft stated position. For discussion of courtesy, I refer you to some excellent conversations on the topic in _Issola_. As to your second point, I posit there are two events in the books that are worth avoiding stating explicitly. Naming the other persona of the one character that appears as another is one, and referring to Godslayer by the name used at the end of _Issola_ is in my mind the other. I'd say the rest of the contents of anything in paperback for more than a month or so is fair game to me. I note that: On Thursday, July 31, 2003 5:56 PM, Matthew Hunter wrote: > Speaking of which: Would the list owner please post a spoiler > policy reminder so we know how long the consensus for spoiler > protection is? To which there was no reply. Casey From jazzfish at softhome.net Wed Aug 6 11:24:29 2003 From: jazzfish at softhome.net (Tucker) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 14:24:29 -0400 Subject: Spoilers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.1.20030806141717.00aeda08@pro.softhome.net> >In my experience, that teenager will not sign up for the list until he has >read at least a goodly portion of the series. He has no incentive to do >otherwise. Orca is book seven of the series, though. I could easily see someone devouring Book of Jhereg and doing the "Must have more!" thing, buying the next two trades and whatever else they can find and signing up for the mailing list immediately. Having said that... putting spoiler protection on everything would get ridiculous real fast. For most things, mentioning the book early on is probably good. The two cases where I imagine it would really seriously affect the reader are the end of _Orca_ and the Big Secret of _Agyar_. The "ohmigod" moments in those books (one of which comes at the end, the other whenever the reader figures it out for hirself) are just so much /fun/, I wouldn't want to accidentally take them away from anyone. (Oh, and maybe the identity of Devera's father.) But then, I know people that still hate Charles Schulz because there were so many Citizen Kane spoilers in _Peanuts_. ---- "I can't think of much worse than spending a lifetime doing something that isn't what you want to do." --Neil Gaiman, 2003-05-18 From brian.vanskyock at zimmer.com Wed Aug 6 11:36:35 2003 From: brian.vanskyock at zimmer.com (Brian Vanskyock) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 13:36:35 -0500 Subject: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: Phoenix and Gods References: Message-ID: <3F314AB3.EFEF30DF@zimmer.com> Kiera and Sethra are the same person? when did this happen? brian From gomi at speakeasy.net Wed Aug 6 11:35:46 2003 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: Phoenix and Gods In-Reply-To: <3F314AB3.EFEF30DF@zimmer.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Brian Vanskyock wrote: > Kiera and Sethra are the same person? when did this happen? LOL SPIKE DIES LOL pe From warlord at dragon.com Wed Aug 6 11:37:58 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:37:58 -0400 Subject: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: Phoenix and Gods In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 "Warlord" wrote: > > > > > >I disagree with this. The length of time that a book has been out > >in no way establishes when a person might discover that book. As an > >example, lets take a teenager just discovering The Lensman Series. > >The series has been out what, about 60+ years ? > > In my experience, that teenager will not sign up for the list > until he has > read at least a goodly portion of the series. He has no incentive to do > otherwise. > > The last time I checked, the purpose of this list was to discuss > the various > Dragaera novels. While it is common courtesy to avoid giving out > spoilers > for the new book in the series, if we extend spoiler coverage to > every book > SB has ever written, the list can have no non-spoiler content. > Anyone who > subscribes to a book discussion list has to assume that there will be > information about books he hasn't read on that list. If you > don't want to > see any spoilers at all, then don't subscribe to the list until you're > caught up. After discarding a couple of draft replies to this, I realize that my time is worth more than trying to get you to accept my refutation on the subject. It was easier by far to simply put in an additional e-mail filter and route all your messages to your own sub-directory where I can read your comments after I have read all books currently in print. W "Sometimes, the answer is just to cure the symptom." From warlord at dragon.com Wed Aug 6 11:39:20 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:39:20 -0400 Subject: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: Phoenix and Gods In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Gomi no Sensei [mailto:gomi at speakeasy.net] > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 2:36 PM > To: Brian Vanskyock > Cc: vlad > Subject: Re: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: > Phoenix and Gods > > > > On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Brian Vanskyock wrote: > > > Kiera and Sethra are the same person? when did this happen? > > LOL SPIKE DIES LOL > Spike dies ? When did this happen ? W "Hey! Those resting cases look comfortable." From TimN at rcn.com Wed Aug 6 11:46:59 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:46:59 -0400 Subject: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: Phoenix and Gods References: Message-ID: <002601c35c4b$1f16db00$d916fea9@ananda> I apologise if I offended anyone. I do agree with the 2 "big spoilers" you listed (Godslayer and the sexy Jhereg) -- but we just finished a big discussion about that particular information (Namely, _Issola_) in which said spoiler was tossed about without protection. This lead me to assume that spoiler protection was not needed for a book which is, chronologically in both our world and theirs, earlier. Where exactly do we draw the line? Is it "bad form" to discuss Khaavren's appearance in _Teckla_ with notes about the _Romances_ because some readers of _Teckla_ may not have read _TPG_ and suchly? I maintain this list is, for the most part, "reader beware" in its entirety. If I'm wrong let me know. - T PS, I meant my post to stimulate discussion about the gods, not about spoiler protection...sigh. ----- Original Message ----- From: Casey Rousseau To: Dragaera Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 2:24 PM Subject: RE: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: Phoenix and Gods snip > avoiding stating explicitly. Naming the other persona of the one character > that appears as another is one, and referring to Godslayer by the name used > at the end of _Issola_ is in my mind the other snip From swiftone at swiftone.org Wed Aug 6 12:08:59 2003 From: swiftone at swiftone.org (Brett Sanger) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 15:08:59 -0400 Subject: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: Phoenix and Gods In-Reply-To: References: <000a01c35c31$cb907220$d916fea9@ananda> <20030806170124.GE2264@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20030806190859.GD21113@swiftone.org> > It was 1996. And it depends how many people on the list haven't read all > the Vlad books. If it's a fairly large subset, then spoiler protection > should be very much enforced. Well, I just found the Vlad books, and finances have restricted me to the first 3, plus TPG and FHYA. I once picked up Soylent Green to watch. "What's that?" a friend asked. "I don't know, I've just heard it's a classic. Something about Soylent Green being people." The movie was a big disappointment. -- SwiftOne / Brett Sanger swiftone at swiftone.org From usagigoya at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 12:08:48 2003 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:08:48 +0000 Subject: Wherefrom LoCB ? Message-ID: >Has anyone on the left bank of the US seen LoCB in any bookstores yet? >(facing North, of course) I just received the copy I had ordered through a local independent bookstore, provided by Ingram Distribution which showed large quantities on hand as of Monday (Aug. 4, 2003). Other bookstores ordering through Ingrams should be receiving their copies today or tommorrow (HOPEFULLY!). Real soon now, I am going to start wishing for April 2004 to hurry up and get here!!!! _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From den at epia.monger.net Wed Aug 6 12:11:56 2003 From: den at epia.monger.net (Dennis Higbee) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:11:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: Phoenix and Gods In-Reply-To: <20030806190859.GD21113@swiftone.org> References: <000a01c35c31$cb907220$d916fea9@ananda> <20030806170124.GE2264@infodancer.org> <20030806190859.GD21113@swiftone.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Brett Sanger wrote: > > It was 1996. And it depends how many people on the list haven't read all > > the Vlad books. If it's a fairly large subset, then spoiler protection > > should be very much enforced. > > Well, I just found the Vlad books, and finances have restricted me to > the first 3, plus TPG and FHYA. Well, I should restate. Every little detail shouldn't be spoiler protected. Just the big two that change the way you read all the books. And I kinda liked Soylent Green, though only for Edward G. Robinson. Charlton Heston just didn't work in that role. -Dennis From Gaertk at aol.com Wed Aug 6 12:12:59 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 15:12:59 -0400 Subject: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: Phoenixand =?ISO-8859-1?B?oEdvZHM=?= Message-ID: <24736A7D.254A825A.00048EA6@aol.com> S P O I L E R S S P O I L E R S His son. Vampire. Cookbook. Sled. "LET THERE BE LIGHT!" Star of Bethlehem. [hrm, can't think of a spoiler for Oedipus Rex] E N D S P O I L E R S From warlord at dragon.com Wed Aug 6 12:17:24 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 15:17:24 -0400 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5FOrca=5F_spoiler_in_Timothy_Nelson's_post_in_thread_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_Phoenixand_=A0Gods?= In-Reply-To: <24736A7D.254A825A.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: > > S > > P > > O > > I > > L > > E > > R > > S > > S > > P > > O > > I > > L > > E > > R > > S > > His son. > Vampire. > Cookbook. > Sled. > "LET THERE BE LIGHT!" > Star of Bethlehem. > [hrm, can't think of a spoiler for Oedipus Rex] He said, she said ? > > > E > > N > > D > > S > > P > > O > > I > > L > > E > > R > > S > > > > From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Aug 6 12:29:18 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:29:18 -0500 Subject: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: Phoenix and Gods In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030806192918.GG2264@infodancer.org> Please include an attribution line when you are quoting material >from others, just so it's easier to keep straight who is saying what. I've noticed that your last couple messages did not have them. On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 02:37:58PM -0400, Warlord wrote: > After discarding a couple of draft replies to this, I realize that > my time is worth more than trying to get you to accept my refutation > on the subject. It was easier by far to simply put in an additional > e-mail filter and route all your messages to your own sub-directory > where I can read your comments after I have read all books currently > in print. Feel free to do this with my messages as well. I'm happy to accomodate spoiler protection for a short period of time, but not forever. I suspect that if you are consistent with this policy you will find it much more efficient to simply unsubscribe from the list entirely. I am not requesting that you do so, just pointing it out. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Aug 6 12:32:35 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 12:32:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: <200308061500.LAA11463712@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <200308061500.LAA11463712@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: > ... > Hours have 60 minutes (FH 256). Hours and minutes are apparently > identical to their Terran counterparts, and were presumably established by > the original Terran colonists (see below). I see no evidence for equating Dragaeran and Terran minutes and hours. It seems unlikely to me that they could be equivalent. Of course it's possible that the ratio of days is exactly 30/24, but 29/24 is as likely, as is (29.1)/24. But in either of the latter cases, I would anticipate the minute being changed so that there would be an even number of hours. As long as the second stayed the same, I don't think the physicists would care. In John M. Ford's great _Growing Up Weightless_, which is set on the moon, the lunar society uses 25 hour days with the final hour being 12.5 minutes long. Obviously such an arrangement isn't possible without computers - so pre-Orb, there must have been some accomodation in the non-exact case. > There are 17 months in the year, of 17 days each (PG 59). Both days and > months are named after the Houses. Does the Cycle favor the Dzur on the day of the Dzur in the month of the Dzur? I imagine the empire's stock market must oscillate a lot... Do bastards get an edge on two days etc.? From pddb at demesne.com Wed Aug 6 12:35:50 2003 From: pddb at demesne.com (pddb at demesne.com) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:35:50 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5FOrca=5F_spoiler_in_Timothy_Nelson's_post_in_thread_RE:?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Phoenixand_=A0Gods?= In-Reply-To: <24736A7D.254A825A.00048EA6@aol.com>; from Gaertk@aol.com on Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 03:12:59PM -0400 References: <24736A7D.254A825A.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030806143550.B21512@gw.dd-b.net> On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 03:12:59PM -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > S > > P > > O > > I > > L > > E > > R > > S > > S > > P > > O > > I > > L > > E > > R > > S > > His son. > Vampire. > Cookbook. > Sled. > "LET THERE BE LIGHT!" > Star of Bethlehem. > [hrm, can't think of a spoiler for Oedipus Rex] "The detective did it." -- Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet (pddb at demesne.com) "I will open my heart to a blank page and interview the witnesses." John M. Ford, "Shared World" From TimN at rcn.com Wed Aug 6 12:42:43 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 15:42:43 -0400 Subject: [Spoilers! OMG!] Soylent Green, Was: Re: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: Phoenix and Gods References: <000a01c35c31$cb907220$d916fea9@ananda> <20030806170124.GE2264@infodancer.org> <20030806190859.GD21113@swiftone.org> Message-ID: <001e01c35c52$e82f6640$d916fea9@ananda> Xenogears totally spoiled Soylent Green for me... Oops, I just spoiled Xenogears. :( Well about 1% of it. ----- Original Message ----- From: Brett Sanger To: Dragaera Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 3:08 PM Subject: Re: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: Phoenix and Gods > > It was 1996. And it depends how many people on the list haven't read all > > the Vlad books. If it's a fairly large subset, then spoiler protection > > should be very much enforced. > > Well, I just found the Vlad books, and finances have restricted me to > the first 3, plus TPG and FHYA. > > I once picked up Soylent Green to watch. "What's that?" a friend asked. > "I don't know, I've just heard it's a classic. Something about Soylent > Green being people." > > The movie was a big disappointment. > > -- > SwiftOne / Brett Sanger > swiftone at swiftone.org From davids at kithrup.com Wed Aug 6 12:45:14 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >I see no evidence for equating Dragaeran and Terran minutes and >hours. It seems unlikely to me that they could be equivalent. Of >course it's possible that the ratio of days is exactly 30/24, but >29/24 is as likely, as is (29.1)/24. But in either of the latter >cases, I would anticipate the minute being changed so that there >would be an even number of hours. As long as the second stayed the >same, I don't think the physicists would care. > >In John M. Ford's great _Growing Up Weightless_, which is set on the >moon, the lunar society uses 25 hour days with the final hour being >12.5 minutes long. Obviously such an arrangement isn't possible >without computers - so pre-Orb, there must have been some >accomodation in the non-exact case. > Pre-Orb, I doubt that the primitive Dragaeran tribes divided time that finely. BTW, I am not sure that the arrangement you describe would be *impossible* without computers. I read a book on clock & watchmaking, and given all of the weird things that mechanical watches have been made to do (track the phase of the moon, sidereal time, etc), I think a sufficiently clever engineer could make a mechanical clock/watch in which an alternate gearing system would be used once every X hours. Although perhaps that falls under your definition, since a clock is a primitive analog computer, in a sense. At any rate, it doesn't necessarily require a digital computer. From warlord at dragon.com Wed Aug 6 12:47:22 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 15:47:22 -0400 Subject: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: Phoenix and Gods In-Reply-To: <20030806192918.GG2264@infodancer.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Matthew Hunter [mailto:matthew at infodancer.org] > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 3:29 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: > Phoenix and Gods > > > Please include an attribution line when you are quoting material > from others, just so it's easier to keep straight who is saying > what. I've noticed that your last couple messages did not have > them. > > On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 02:37:58PM -0400, Warlord > wrote: > > After discarding a couple of draft replies to this, I realize that > > my time is worth more than trying to get you to accept my refutation > > on the subject. It was easier by far to simply put in an additional > > e-mail filter and route all your messages to your own sub-directory > > where I can read your comments after I have read all books currently > > in print. > > Feel free to do this with my messages as well. I'm happy to > accomodate spoiler protection for a short period of time, but not > forever. > > I suspect that if you are consistent with this policy you will > find it much more efficient to simply unsubscribe from the list > entirely. I am not requesting that you do so, just pointing it > out. When this reflects the actions of more than a small minority, then I may indeed consider recommending this option; however, please note that my post was objecting to the opinion that people didn't need spoiler protection because of the length of time since publication. In my opinion, it is nicer to be safe rather than sorry by stating "spoiler" if you are revealing a major plot point. I really don't care how old it is. If someone hasn't reached it, then you have spoiled it for them. I would simply rather not do that to anyone. If you put a time limit on your caring for others, then that is your business; however, I do not have to like it, and indeed I do not. Warlord From bjf at wavefront.com Wed Aug 6 12:48:44 2003 From: bjf at wavefront.com (Beth Friedman) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 14:48:44 -0500 Subject: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: Phoenixand  Gods Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030806144838.05acca10@shell.visi.com> In our previous episode at 02:35 PM 8/6/03, pddb at demesne.com wrote: >On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 03:12:59PM -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > S > > > > P > > > > O > > > > I > > > > L > > > > E > > > > R > > > > S > > > > S > > > > P > > > > O > > > > I > > > > L > > > > E > > > > R > > > > S > > > > His son. > > Vampire. > > Cookbook. > > Sled. > > "LET THERE BE LIGHT!" > > Star of Bethlehem. > > [hrm, can't think of a spoiler for Oedipus Rex] > >"The detective did it." The ocean liner was a hoax. He's a ghost, too. -- Beth Friedman / bjf at wavefront.com There are 10 types of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those who don't. From bertowud at cox.net Wed Aug 6 12:54:31 2003 From: bertowud at cox.net (Robert Wood) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 15:54:31 -0400 Subject: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: Phoenixand =?8859_1?B?oEdvZHM=?= Message-ID: <20030806195431.JGOP26675.lakemtao07.cox.net@smtp.central.cox.net> > > From: Beth Friedman > Date: 2003/08/06 Wed PM 03:48:44 EDT > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: > Phoenixand ?Gods > > In our previous episode at 02:35 PM 8/6/03, pddb at demesne.com wrote: > >On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 03:12:59PM -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > > S > > > > > > P > > > > > > O > > > > > > I > > > > > > L > > > > > > E > > > > > > R > > > > > > S > > > > > > S > > > > > > P > > > > > > O > > > > > > I > > > > > > L > > > > > > E > > > > > > R > > > > > > S > > > > > > His son. > > > Vampire. > > > Cookbook. > > > Sled. > > > "LET THERE BE LIGHT!" > > > Star of Bethlehem. > > > [hrm, can't think of a spoiler for Oedipus Rex] > > > >"The detective did it." > > The ocean liner was a hoax. > He's a ghost, too. Hey, wait a minute. I haven't seen that one yet! From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Aug 6 13:04:29 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 13:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > Pre-Orb, I doubt that the primitive Dragaeran tribes divided time that > finely. If I remember my Roman history, they had a 9-hour day, where the hour changed to accomodate the seasons, and they didn't account for hours at night, else they would have had 18-hour days. They had I suppose hour-glasses but relied on clepsydrae or water-clocks at some point. I wonder about Dragaeran music - perhaps they found some old metronomes... And of course they would have found old measuring sticks, which with a little physics knowledge left over from the pre-Jenoine times would have allowed them to measure time by dropping rocks. > BTW, I am not sure that the arrangement you describe would be > *impossible* without computers. > ... I think > a sufficiently clever engineer could make a mechanical clock/watch in > which an alternate gearing system would be used once every X hours. > At any rate, it doesn't necessarily require a digital computer. I assert that no technical preindustrial society would be able to support a system with varying-length hours, not simply because of the difficulty of keeping time, but the horror of accounting for time periods in contracts, between time zones, ... From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Wed Aug 6 10:05:43 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:05:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: =?646?Q?Re:_Re:_Re:_=5FOrca=5F_spoiler_in_Timothy_Nels?= =?646?Q?on's_post_in_thread_RE:__Phoenixand_=3F=3FGods?= Message-ID: <7319660.1060200344356.JavaMail.nobody@bert.psp.pas.earthlink.net> -------Original Message------- From: Robert Wood Sent: 08/06/03 03:54 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Re: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: Phoenixand ??Gods > Hey, wait a minute. I haven't seen that one yet! But there was all this spoiler warning... *grin* Jose, who just missed winning the spoiler debate pool. Shoulda taken the points... -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~jhereg69 From usagigoya at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 13:16:22 2003 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 20:16:22 +0000 Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ Message-ID: Do technical preindustrial societies have "time zones"? >From: Philip Hart >I assert that no technical preindustrial society would be able to support >a system with varying-length hours, not simply because of the difficulty >of keeping time, but the horror of accounting for time periods in >contracts, between time zones, ... > _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From den at epia.monger.net Wed Aug 6 13:19:57 2003 From: den at epia.monger.net (Dennis Higbee) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?X-UNKNOWN?Q?Re=3A_=5FOrca=5F_spoiler_in_Timothy_Nelson's_po?= =?X-UNKNOWN?Q?st_in_thread_RE=3A__Phoenixand_=A0Gods?= In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030806144838.05acca10@shell.visi.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030806144838.05acca10@shell.visi.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Beth Friedman wrote: > In our previous episode at 02:35 PM 8/6/03, pddb at demesne.com wrote: > >On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 03:12:59PM -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > > S > > > > > > P > > > > > > O > > > > > > I > > > > > > L > > > > > > E > > > > > > R > > > > > > S > > > > > > S > > > > > > P > > > > > > O > > > > > > I > > > > > > L > > > > > > E > > > > > > R > > > > > > S > > > His son. > > > Vampire. > > > Cookbook. > > > Sled. > > > "LET THERE BE LIGHT!" > > > Star of Bethlehem. > > > [hrm, can't think of a spoiler for Oedipus Rex] > >"The detective did it." > The ocean liner was a hoax. > He's a ghost, too. The boat sinks. Everybody did it. They cross the streams and it works. -Dennis From bertowud at cox.net Wed Aug 6 13:20:52 2003 From: bertowud at cox.net (Robert Wood) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 16:20:52 -0400 Subject: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: Phoenixand ??Gods Message-ID: <20030806202052.GCYQ15657.lakemtao06.cox.net@smtp.central.cox.net> > > From: Jose Marquez > Date: 2003/08/06 Wed PM 01:05:43 EDT > To: Dragaera > Subject: Re: Re: Re: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: Phoenixand ??Gods > > > -------Original Message------- > From: Robert Wood > Sent: 08/06/03 03:54 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Re: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: Phoenixand ??Gods > > > Hey, wait a minute. I haven't seen that one yet! > > But there was all this spoiler warning... *grin* > > Jose, who just missed winning the spoiler debate pool. Shoulda taken the points... > > -- > Jose Marquez > jhereg69 at earthlink.net > http://home.earthlink.net/~jhereg69 > I was kidding. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Wed Aug 6 10:27:51 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:27:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: Phoenixand ??Gods Message-ID: <683358.1060201671678.JavaMail.nobody@bert.psp.pas.earthlink.net> -------Original Message------- From: Robert Wood Sent: 08/06/03 04:20 PM To: Dragaera Subject: Re: Re: Re: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: Phoenixand ??Gods > I was kidding. So was I. *grin* Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~jhereg69 From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Aug 6 13:33:10 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:33:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_Re:__Orca__spoiler_in_Timothy_Nelson's_post_i?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?n_thread_RE:__Phoenixand_=A0Gods?= Message-ID: <200308062033.h76KX8I08246@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > > From: Beth Friedman > > Date: 2003/08/06 Wed PM 03:48:44 EDT > > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > > Subject: Re: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: > > Phoenixand ?Gods > > > > In our previous episode at 02:35 PM 8/6/03, pddb at demesne.com wrote: > > >On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 03:12:59PM -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > > > S > > > > > > > > P > > > > > > > > O > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > L > > > > > > > > E > > > > > > > > R > > > > > > > > S > > > > > > > > S > > > > > > > > P > > > > > > > > O > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > L > > > > > > > > E > > > > > > > > R > > > > > > > > S > > > > > > > > His son. > > > > Vampire. > > > > Cookbook. > > > > Sled. > > > > "LET THERE BE LIGHT!" > > > > Star of Bethlehem. > > > > [hrm, can't think of a spoiler for Oedipus Rex] > > > > > >"The detective did it." > > > > The ocean liner was a hoax. > > He's a ghost, too. > > Hey, wait a minute. I haven't seen that one yet! Maybe, but there was plenty of spoiler space!! Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From greyw01f at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 13:45:41 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 20:45:41 +0000 Subject: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: Phoenixand Gods Message-ID: OMG VLAD'S SON IS A VAMPIRE CHEF WITH A SLED WHO HAPPENS TO BE THE SON OF GOD???? when did this happen? I'd guess that Mario will be Devera's father. Jon _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jimkatz at ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 6 13:49:18 2003 From: jimkatz at ix.netcom.com (Jim Katz) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 16:49:18 -0400 Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ References: Message-ID: <3F3169CE.A8CA32D4@ix.netcom.com> Hi Steve, Sure they did, but nobody could move fast enough to notice!! Jim Steve Hubbell wrote: > > Do technical preindustrial societies have "time zones"? > > >From: Philip Hart > >I assert that no technical preindustrial society would be able to support > >a system with varying-length hours, not simply because of the difficulty > >of keeping time, but the horror of accounting for time periods in > >contracts, between time zones, ... > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail -- ! Jim Katz ! Certified Clarion Developer ! Author: ABC DLL Toolkit Maintainer: DEF for ABC,DET for Legacy ! Web Site: http://home.iag.net/~jimkatz/ ! Company: iTradeZone,Inc. ! Using Clarion for Windows - Always looking for the simpler solution. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Aug 6 14:01:40 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 14:01:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Time zones were apparently established because of railroads. Anyway it didn't matter before the development of nautical clocks, which I guess came with industialization. This is a bit speculative, but I think Dragaera is a technical preindustrial society - Aliera's array of skills are certainly technical - we see established techniques of investigation used in _FHYA_ - but there's no industry as I understand it in the Empire, not even a magical industry such as we see in Ford's Liavek story "Riding the Hammer", where magicians are part of road gangs building a railroad. Incidentally, since post-Interregnum there is teleportation, and the Empire is quite large, Dragaerans need time zones, or would, if the Orb didn't impose Emperor-local time. On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Steve Hubbell wrote: > > Do technical preindustrial societies have "time zones"? > > >From: Philip Hart > >I assert that no technical preindustrial society would be able to support > >a system with varying-length hours, not simply because of the difficulty > >of keeping time, but the horror of accounting for time periods in > >contracts, between time zones, ... > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > From davids at kithrup.com Wed Aug 6 14:04:22 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:04:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Philip Hart wrote: [Aside: Could you please edit your "To:" & "Cc:" such that your replies only go to the list (or to me, but not both, since I only need one copy)? Thanks.] > > >On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > >> Pre-Orb, I doubt that the primitive Dragaeran tribes divided time that >> finely. > >If I remember my Roman history, they had a 9-hour day, where the hour >changed to accomodate the seasons, and they didn't account for hours at >night, else they would have had 18-hour days. As I recall from my Jewish studies, that's what the Talmudic scholars did as well (this was important to them because certain prayers needed to be said at certain times - dawn, afternoon & evening - before). My point is that such cultures don't divide time down to the minute (let alone the second). > They had I suppose hour-glasses but relied on clepsydrae or >water-clocks at some point. Also time-candles with different coloured wax, and sundials of course. >I wonder about Dragaeran music - perhaps they found some old metronomes... Metronomes are 19th-century inventions. >And of course they would have found old measuring sticks, which with >a little physics knowledge left over from the pre-Jenoine times would >have allowed them to measure time by dropping rocks. We haven't seen that Dragaeran culture has any knowledge of physics at all, although we can't be certain that they are ignorant of the sciences either. They at least have *some* chemistry (petroleum refining), but we don't know how recent a development that is. > >> BTW, I am not sure that the arrangement you describe would be >> *impossible* without computers. >> ... I think >> a sufficiently clever engineer could make a mechanical clock/watch in >> which an alternate gearing system would be used once every X hours. >> At any rate, it doesn't necessarily require a digital computer. > >I assert that no technical preindustrial society would be able to >support a system with varying-length hours, Er, we just said how they support it: By not stressing over the length or the number of the minutes. All they cared about was dividing the *day* into hours, not subdividing furthur. > > not simply because of the difficulty of keeping time, but the horror >of accounting for time periods in contracts, between time zones, ... > Good grief. All they need to care about is the granularity of the day. And as someone else pointed out, time zones are a mostly modern invention (for fairly broad meanings of "modern"; certainly post-Roman, for example, although I may need to research that better), only applicible and possible with modern timekeeping and communications. From pgranzeau at cox.net Wed Aug 6 14:06:24 2003 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 16:06:24 -0500 Subject: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: Phoenix and Gods In-Reply-To: <3F314AB3.EFEF30DF@zimmer.com> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030806160521.01dca150@pop.east.cox.net> At 13:36 08/06/2003, Brian Vanskyock wrote: >Kiera and Sethra are the same person? when did this happen? How long ago was ORCA published? Five years? Something like that. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Aug 6 14:26:14 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 14:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > [Aside: Could you please edit your "To:" & "Cc:" such that your > replies only go to the list (or to me, but not both, since I only > need one copy)? Thanks.] Aside - since it's less work for the receiver to delete a double email than for the sender edit the cc/to (under pine, anyway), I don't care about receiving extras, but will honor your request - do others care? > My point is that such cultures don't divide time down to the minute > (let alone the second). The point of my argument, and perhaps we're arguing past each other, is that it's likely that the Dragaeran colonists either maintained the Terran second/minute/hour and instituted a lunar system, or they changed the time units, and from a scientific perspective the second is sacred. Obviously the former system wouldn't work after the loss of technology, and in fact isn't present by the Paarfiad, so I doubt one Dragaeran minute equals one Terran minute. And see below re seconds. > >I wonder about Dragaeran music - perhaps they found some old metronomes... > > Metronomes are 19th-century inventions. I suspect the Vladiad is meant to occur post-19th century. Pre-Jenoine texts survived, why not simple metronomes? > sciences either. They at least have *some* chemistry (petroleum > refining), but we don't know how recent a development that is. I think "petroleum" is a mistranslation. > >I assert that no technical preindustrial society would be able to > >support a system with varying-length hours, > > Er, we just said how they support it: By not stressing over the length > or the number of the minutes. All they cared about was dividing the > *day* into hours, not subdividing furthur. By technical I meant to exclude Rome etc. By varying I meant hour_i = n seconds but m for i=j. Dragaerans can measure and in fact care about fine gradations of time - the greymist bomb can be maintained for 8 seconds, and presumably other spells have tight parameters. From Gaertk at aol.com Wed Aug 6 14:49:21 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 17:49:21 -0400 Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ Message-ID: <1375C9D4.61294465.00048EA6@aol.com> Philip Hart writes: >On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > >> [Aside: Could you please edit your "To:" & "Cc:" such that >> your replies only go to the list (or to me, but not both, >> since I only need one copy)? ?Thanks.] > > Aside - since it's less work for the receiver to delete a > double email than for the sender edit the cc/to (under > pine, anyway), I don't care about receiving extras, but > will honor your request - do others care? I find duplicates slightly annoying, but not too bad. I wouldn't've commented on it had you not asked. If anything, I'd be more concerned about wasted bandwidth from cascades being sent to a dozen people on the list in addition to the list, which is why I always send replies only to the list (has anyone even noticed that?). Is it time for our annual reply-to flamewar? :) >> sciences either. ?They at least have *some* chemistry >> (petroleum refining), but we don't know how recent a >> development that is. > > I think "petroleum" is a mistranslation. I believe Brust has explicitly stated that petroleum and a few other things (swivel chairs, kerosine) were specifically mentioned to indicate this isn't a medieval society. --KG From gomi at speakeasy.net Wed Aug 6 14:53:36 2003 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: <1375C9D4.61294465.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > Is it time for our annual reply-to flamewar? :) If it is, sign me up for a dozen "not having reply-to go to the list by default is an arcane misconfiguration bordering on the insanely baroque, and only a subhuman monster would defend such a position." pe From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Wed Aug 6 14:54:24 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 14:54:24 -0700 Subject: Wherefrom LoCB ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 14:14:37 -0400, you wrote: >James Griffin wrote: >> Has anyone on the left bank of the US seen LoCB in any bookstores yet? >> (facing North, of course) > >Amazon has changed the availability to "Usually ships within 24 hours". > >Casey Last time I ordered something from them that "usually ships within 24 hours," it took 7 weeks, and I finally just canceled. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Wed Aug 6 15:17:42 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 18:17:42 -0400 Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: <1375C9D4.61294465.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <1375C9D4.61294465.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <3F317E86.1060804@earthlink.net> Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >Philip Hart writes: > > >>On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: >> >> >>>[Aside: Could you please edit your "To:" & "Cc:" such that >>>your replies only go to the list (or to me, but not both, >>>since I only need one copy)? Thanks.] >>> >>> >>Aside - since it's less work for the receiver to delete a >>double email than for the sender edit the cc/to (under >>pine, anyway), I don't care about receiving extras, but >>will honor your request - do others care? >> >> >I find duplicates slightly annoying, but not too bad. I >wouldn't've commented on it had you not asked. If anything, >I'd be more concerned about wasted bandwidth from cascades >being sent to a dozen people on the list in addition to the >list, which is why I always send replies only to the list >(has anyone even noticed that?). > >Is it time for our annual reply-to flamewar? :) > > Dammit! I'm going to lose that pool also... Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Wed Aug 6 16:16:15 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:16:15 -0400 Subject: Wherefrom LoCB ? Message-ID: <20030806231615.GA20352@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> James Griffin wrote: > Has anyone on the left bank of the US seen LoCB in any bookstores yet? > (facing North, of course) It hit the Barnes & Noble in Ann Arbor, MI today. -- "You are writing children's books, you need to be a ruthless killer." J. K. Rowling, author of the Harry Potter books, in From davids at kithrup.com Wed Aug 6 16:14:52 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 16:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > >On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > >> On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >> > >> My point is that such cultures don't divide time down to the minute >> (let alone the second). > >The point of my argument, and perhaps we're arguing past each other, Perhaps we are at that... >is that it's likely that the Dragaeran colonists either maintained When you say "Dragaeran colonists", do you mean the Easterners or the Dragaerans themselves? The Easterners lost their tech, and the Dragaerans were experimental subjects and thus not likely to retain tech from the original colonists anyway. >the Terran second/minute/hour and instituted a lunar system, or they >changed the time units, and from a scientific perspective the second >is sacred. Obviously the former system wouldn't work after the loss >of technology, and in fact isn't present by the Paarfiad, so I doubt >one Dragaeran minute equals one Terran minute. Well, exactly. With that, I entirely agree. > And see below re seconds. > >> >I wonder about Dragaeran music - perhaps they found some old >> >metronomes... >> Metronomes are 19th-century inventions. > >I suspect the Vladiad is meant to occur post-19th century. >Pre-Jenoine texts survived, why not simple metronomes? > You seemed to be implying that the tribal Dragaerans had metronomes, which is unlikely given their tech level. Post-Orb Dragaerans would not need metronomes becasue they would have the Orb for time-keeping. :-) But OK, metronomes themselves might well exist *somewhere*. >> sciences either. They at least have *some* chemistry (petroleum >> refining), but we don't know how recent a development that is. > >I think "petroleum" is a mistranslation. > I don't see why "petroleum" would be a mistranslation since it just means "rock-oil" in Latin. Also, it turns out that the process of petroleum refining goes back several centuries (in our universe, I mean); I think I read somewhere that the alchemists of the Muslim Golden Age figured it out. At any rate, it requires a lower tech level than one might think. Huge refineries for large-scale gasoline production are a modern invention, of course. > >> >I assert that no technical preindustrial society would be able to >> >support a system with varying-length hours, >> >> Er, we just said how they support it: By not stressing over the length >> or the number of the minutes. All they cared about was dividing the >> *day* into hours, not subdividing furthur. > >By technical I meant to exclude Rome etc. By varying I meant hour_i = n >seconds but m for i=j. Well, when you put it that way, I would have to agree with you. The second itself is an invention of a more modern ability to finely divide time. But once you *can* divide time finely and regularly using mechanisms (gears, pendulums, springs, etc), it is then at some point possible to use an arrangement of those mechanisms to track time however you want, including hours of varying length. It may take some time to develop the mechanisms, of course (going from "generally correct clocks" to "accurate clocks" to "accurate clocks that also work at sea" (and so on) took several lifetimes in our history). > Dragaerans can measure and in fact care about fine gradations of >time - the greymist bomb can be maintained for 8 seconds, and >presumably other spells have tight parameters. > Modern Dragaerans care; I was referring to preindustrial cultures (those lacking fine engineering) in general (although starting to care about finer gradations of time helps propel such engineering research that then develops it). And of course, the Orb is a digital computer as far as timekeeping is concerned, and so could track such variation, if that is in fact how they wished to go about things (not that I have any certainty about whether they do or not). From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Aug 6 16:15:25 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 16:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: <200308061458.KAA11387939@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <200308061458.KAA11387939@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: I wrote: > > And at the end of _FHYA_ we see Aliera claim the Orb - > > but if the emperor's death doesn't necessarily mean anything, this > > action seems a bit odd, or at least might well be discussed later. > > But Aliera is with Adron's party, who believe (falsely, as it turns out) > that the Cycle is about to turn. Had the Disaster not occurred when it > did, no doubt there would have been some "discussion" of this matter :-) I'm not entirely convinced the Cycle wasn't about to turn, or whether in fact it didn't. I think there wouldn't have been a discussion under a one-bite-at-the-Orb rule. > > And we likely would have known who the designated Phoenix Heir > > at the time was, as in this scenario it would actually matter. > > On page 266 of _FHYA_, we learn that Princess Loudin (Zerika's mother) > is the Phoenix Heir, and Khaavren advises that she flee the city. Ok, you're right, and I therefore have to acknowledge this as further evidence of the (to my view) vile multi-bite rule. Even more so: I now see that, since the earlier assassination attempt on Tortaalik (the White Goblet Affair, _FHYA_ pg 6) involved his sister (who I've speculated is the non-Zerika Phoenix), who would be unlikely to have done her brother in if her House would be thereby disenfranchised, I might have to consider the multi-bite rule as a real possibility. > I suppose that, technically, she *was* Empress for the last year or so > of her life. Perhaps, if she had not died of a plague so soon, there > might have been a Kana-like proto-empire formed around her. I'd say that she was the Cycle-emperor-elect or -apparent, but not the Orb-emperor. It would be hard to say whether Zerika or the sister (or whoever Phoenix #2 is) took this role upon Loudin's death, as Zerika was a minor, though clearly she had a better claim upon reaching her majority. From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Wed Aug 6 16:20:07 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 16:20:07 -0700 Subject: Wherefrom LoCB ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It just hit the Barnes and Noble in Santee, so I'm assuming the rest of San Diego has them as well. I'm off to get my copy..... -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From usagigoya at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 16:37:06 2003 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 23:37:06 +0000 Subject: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: Phoenixand Gods Message-ID: WOW, I didn't know sleds were divine?! Learn somethin' new every day!!! >From: "Jon Carey" >OMG VLAD'S SON IS A VAMPIRE CHEF WITH A SLED WHO HAPPENS TO BE THE SON OF >GOD???? > >when did this happen? > >I'd guess that Mario will be Devera's father. > nope, Mario is a mentally challenged servant working in Dzur Mountain Steve _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Aug 6 16:44:24 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 16:44:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > >of technology, and in fact isn't present by the Paarfiad, so I doubt > >one Dragaeran minute equals one Terran minute. > > Well, exactly. With that, I entirely agree. Ok, well, this disputes an element of Alexx's Timeline (no pun intended), which is perhaps more reliable than the Texts themselves - I forget what position Cracks and Shards takes here. > >> Metronomes are 19th-century inventions. > > > >I suspect the Vladiad is meant to occur post-19th century. > >Pre-Jenoine texts survived, why not simple metronomes? > > You seemed to be implying that the tribal Dragaerans had metronomes, > which is unlikely given their tech level. Terran texts were unearthed, though possibly just Lyorn copies of them. So maybe some simple tech survived. I've never built a metronome, but they seem like hardy objects to me. Ok, I once again step away from the tech/Dragaera discussion, which too instantly gets ridiculous, after one comment below: > > Dragaerans can measure and in fact care about fine gradations of > >time - the greymist bomb can be maintained for 8 seconds, and > >presumably other spells have tight parameters. > > > > Modern Dragaerans care; I was referring to preindustrial cultures > (those lacking fine engineering) in general (although starting to care > about finer gradations of time helps propel such engineering research > that then develops it). And of course, the Orb is a digital computer > as far as timekeeping is concerned, and so could track such variation, > if that is in fact how they wished to go about things (not that I have > any certainty about whether they do or not). My assertion was that while the Empire is preindustrial, it's technical, and as such might (I'd think must) have for millennia cared about say how long to subject a dagger to Lady X's ensorcelling rays. From davids at kithrup.com Wed Aug 6 17:28:24 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 17:28:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > >> On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > >> >of technology, and in fact isn't present by the Paarfiad, so I doubt >> >one Dragaeran minute equals one Terran minute. >> >> Well, exactly. With that, I entirely agree. > >Ok, well, this disputes an element of Alexx's Timeline (no pun >intended), which is perhaps more reliable than the Texts themselves - >I forget what position Cracks and Shards takes here. > Well, the timeline states that "Hours and minutes are apparently identical to their Terran counterparts, and were presumably established by the original Terran colonists (see below)." But without a specific canonical reference, I tend to doubt that. Heck, even *with* a canonical reference, I might well doubt that, given the fall in tech level. On the other hand... The National Institute of Standards states that: "Since 1967, the International System of Units (SI) has defined the second as the period equal to 9,192,631,770 cycles of the radiation which corresponds to the transition between two energy levels of the ground state of the Cesium-133 atom." So, *if* the Dragaerans found references to the Standard Second, they might easily have calibrated the Orb to use exactly that for the Orb Standard Second, assuming Cesium-133 exists on Dragaera. And why not? But that doesn't mean that the number of seconds per minute would necessarily match up to ours. The statement in the timeline that there are 60 minutes per hour, cited from FHYA 256, might well be an error on the part of Paarfi and/or Brust. Note references to a 24-hour day, later changed to a 30-hour day. From Gaertk at aol.com Wed Aug 6 18:32:03 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 21:32:03 -0400 Subject: Wherefrom LoCB ? Message-ID: <67FF5C79.3F98F2A6.00048EA6@aol.com> Steve Simmons writes: >James Griffin wrote: > > It hit the Barnes & Noble in Ann Arbor, MI today. A couple more data points: I was in the Chicago area this last week, and saw several copies in the B&N across the street from Oakbrook Center on the afternoon of Aug 1. The Borders up the road from there didn't have any copies that morning (and their database still said not yet published). I also saw copies of the massmarket edition of POTD in a bookstore in O'Hare yesterday. --KG From tackygoldring at netscape.net Wed Aug 6 18:39:12 2003 From: tackygoldring at netscape.net (tacky) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 21:39:12 -0400 Subject: _Orca_ spoiler in Timothy Nelson's post in thread RE: Phoenix and Gods In-Reply-To: <20030806170124.GE2264@infodancer.org> References: <000a01c35c31$cb907220$d916fea9@ananda> <20030806170124.GE2264@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <3F31ADC0.3050506@netscape.net> I have to say I agree with Casey. There are still new people who might have just started reading Brust's books. I've only discovered Steven Brust about a month ago. Although I've already finished all his books except PotD and LoCB, it still would have been a big spoiler if I saw a post about _Orca_ two weeks ago. matthew at infodancer.org wrote: >On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 11:55:53AM -0400, Casey Rousseau wrote: > > >>It seems to me that particular item is one worth preserving a modest amount >>of spoiler protection. One could even make the same statement without >>naming the alternate persona and avoid spoiling for readers who haven't >>gotten to it yet. >>Even Steve has recommended against reading _Orca_ first to avoid learning >>too much aforehand. >> >> > >I don't have my books with me, but amazon claims Orca has been >out since 1996. Even if that's too early (it seems too early to >me!) then Dragon came out in 1999. That's either 7 years or 4 >years. Either way, that's an obscenely long time to put in >spoiler protection. > > > From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Wed Aug 6 18:32:33 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 18:32:33 -0700 Subject: Wherefrom LoCB ? In-Reply-To: <67FF5C79.3F98F2A6.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <67FF5C79.3F98F2A6.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 21:32:03 -0400, you wrote: >Steve Simmons writes: > >>James Griffin wrote: >> >> It hit the Barnes & Noble in Ann Arbor, MI today. > >A couple more data points: I was in the Chicago area this >last week, and saw several copies in the B&N across the >street from Oakbrook Center on the afternoon of Aug 1. The >Borders up the road from there didn't have any copies that >morning (and their database still said not yet published). >I also saw copies of the massmarket edition of POTD in a >bookstore in O'Hare yesterday. > > >--KG It's sounding like B&N have 'em, but Borders don't. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Wed Aug 6 18:56:04 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 21:56:04 -0400 Subject: Wherefrom LoCB ? In-Reply-To: References: <67FF5C79.3F98F2A6.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030807015604.GA23357@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 06:32:33PM -0700, lazarus wrote: > It's sounding like B&N have 'em, but Borders don't. Which mirrors what happened with PoTD. Sigh. Borders used to be the best bookstore in the Midwest, bar none. Now that they're a chain they've gone considerably downhill. -- "You are writing children's books, you need to be a ruthless killer." J. K. Rowling, author of the Harry Potter books, in From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Wed Aug 6 19:53:43 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:53:43 -0700 Subject: Wherefrom LoCB ? In-Reply-To: <20030807015604.GA23357@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <67FF5C79.3F98F2A6.00048EA6@aol.com> <20030807015604.GA23357@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <6of3jvsnd70l2q2k8alsqt3o9ntg9m5jhc@4ax.com> On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 21:56:04 -0400, you wrote: >On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 06:32:33PM -0700, lazarus wrote: > >> It's sounding like B&N have 'em, but Borders don't. > >Which mirrors what happened with PoTD. Sigh. Borders used to be >the best bookstore in the Midwest, bar none. Now that they're a >chain they've gone considerably downhill. Is it possibly a distributor issue? Does B&N have different deals with different distributors from Borders? -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 20:40:56 2003 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 20:40:56 -0700 Subject: Wherefrom LoCB ? Message-ID: >From: Steve Simmons >To: lazarus >CC: Gaertk at aol.com, dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: Wherefrom LoCB ? >Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 21:56:04 -0400 > >On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 06:32:33PM -0700, lazarus wrote: > > > It's sounding like B&N have 'em, but Borders don't. > >Which mirrors what happened with PoTD. Sigh. Borders used to be >the best bookstore in the Midwest, bar none. Now that they're a >chain they've gone considerably downhill. >-- ALAS! My local B&N has no clue as to when the book might arrive. Sadness. James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From djshathe at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 22:07:06 2003 From: djshathe at hotmail.com (Dejin Shathe) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:07:06 +1000 Subject: Fwd: Your Amazon.com order has shipped (#102-5169843) Message-ID: Woohoooooo - now all I have to do is wait the two to three weeks it's gonna take to get to my door!!! You guys think you got it tough. It won't hit any of the local bookstores in my town til about a month from now - and when it does, it'll be AU$60 or more. "It is a fool's prerogative to utter truths that no-one else will speak." >From: ship-confirm at amazon.com >To: djshathe at hotmail.com >Subject: Your Amazon.com order has shipped (#102-5169843-) >Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 02:05:30 +0000 (GMT) > >Greetings from Amazon.com. > >We thought you'd like to know that we shipped your items today, and that >this completes your order. > >Thanks for shopping at Amazon.com, and we hope to see you again soon. > >You can track the status of this order, and all your orders, online by >visiting Your Account at http://www.amazon.com/your-account/ > >There you can: > * Track order and shipment status > * Review estimated delivery dates > * Cancel unshipped items > * Return items > * And do much more > >The following items were included in this shipment: >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Qty Item Price Shipped Subtotal >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >1 The Lord of Castle Black: Book $19.57 1 $19.57 > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > Item Subtotal: $19.57 > Shipping & Handling: $4.99 > > Total: $24.56 > > Paid by Visa: $24.56 > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > >This shipment was sent to: > > DJ S > >via International Shipping (averages 11-16 days). > >This shipment does not have an associated tracking or delivery >confirmation number. > >If you've explored the links on the Your Account page but still need >to get in touch with us about your order, you can find an e-mail form >in our Help department at http://www.amazon.com/help/ >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Please note: This e-mail was sent from a notification-only address >that cannot accept incoming e-mail. Please do not reply to this message. > >Thank you for shopping with us. > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Amazon.com >Earth's Biggest Selection >http://www.amazon.com/ >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is now available on Australian mobile phones. Go to http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/signup.asp From thornsharp at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 00:01:51 2003 From: thornsharp at hotmail.com (Tom Swenson) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 00:01:51 -0700 Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ References: Message-ID: > > Incidentally, since post-Interregnum there is teleportation, and > the Empire is quite large, Dragaerans need time zones, or would, > if the Orb didn't impose Emperor-local time. Accualy, knowing that Dragaerans don't care about the diffrnce between wine and brandy, or javelines and arrows... They might not /care/ about timezones. They don't seem to me to be big on fine distinctions like that. TO them, it may well be that the time is what the orb says it is, and nothing else matters. Tom Swenson From amadandedallas at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 01:33:03 2003 From: amadandedallas at yahoo.com (James D'Amadan) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 01:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wherefrom LoCB ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030807083303.48125.qmail@web40019.mail.yahoo.com> --- lazarus wrote: >> > It's sounding like B&N have 'em, but Borders don't. Borders is odd (says the guy who used to work there). Expect them at Border's within one week. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From curtis.humes at verizon.net Thu Aug 7 01:45:03 2003 From: curtis.humes at verizon.net (Gnosis) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 01:45:03 -0700 Subject: OT: The Demolished Man coming to big screen! In-Reply-To: <200308050933.h759XZg22578@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: <009601c35cc0$32578aa0$ce62fa43@curtis8nhgs8j2> Steven Kevin Dexter, I believe. From Dark Genesis: The Birth of the Psi Corps. Curtis -----Original Message----- From: David Goldfarb [mailto:goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, 05 August, 2003 2:34 AM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: OT: The Demolished Man coming to big screen! >Alfred? Bester? That's the name of that little creep who worked for >Psycorp in Babylon5! I don't suppose this is a co-incidence, is it? When the character was introduced JMS was quite open about the name being an homage to the author of _The Demolished Man_. That's also been established as canon for the series, albeit in the novels. (A fairly obscure B5 trivia question: what was Alfred Bester's birth name?) -- David Goldfarb <*>|"Think of me as a brief electromagnetic anomaly goldfarb at ocf.berkeley.edu | who told you some true things for your own good." goldfarb at csua.berkeley.edu |-- Babylon 5, "Day of the Dead" From pulmon at comcast.net Thu Aug 7 05:17:11 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 08:17:11 -0400 Subject: Your Amazon.com order has shipped (#102-5169843) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <125E7857-C8D1-11D7-82DC-0003938F1608@comcast.net> Me too! Greetings from Amazon.com. We thought you'd like to know that we shipped your items today, and that this completes your order. On Thursday, August 7, 2003, at 01:07 AM, Dejin Shathe wrote: > Woohoooooo - now all I have to do is wait the two to three weeks it's > gonna take to get to my door!!! > > You guys think you got it tough. It won't hit any of the local > bookstores in my town til about a month from now - and when it does, > it'll be AU$60 or more. > > "It is a fool's prerogative to utter truths that no-one else will > speak." > > > > > >> From: ship-confirm at amazon.com >> To: djshathe at hotmail.com >> Subject: Your Amazon.com order has shipped (#102-5169843-) >> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 02:05:30 +0000 (GMT) >> >> Greetings from Amazon.com. >> >> We thought you'd like to know that we shipped your items today, and >> that this completes your order. >> >> Thanks for shopping at Amazon.com, and we hope to see you again soon. >> >> You can track the status of this order, and all your orders, online by >> visiting Your Account at http://www.amazon.com/your-account/ >> >> There you can: >> * Track order and shipment status >> * Review estimated delivery dates >> * Cancel unshipped items >> * Return items >> * And do much more >> >> The following items were included in this shipment: >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Qty Item Price Shipped Subtotal >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> 1 The Lord of Castle Black: Book $19.57 1 $19.57 >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Item Subtotal: $19.57 >> Shipping & Handling: $4.99 >> >> Total: $24.56 >> >> Paid by Visa: $24.56 >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> This shipment was sent to: >> >> DJ S >> >> via International Shipping (averages 11-16 days). >> >> This shipment does not have an associated tracking or delivery >> confirmation number. >> >> If you've explored the links on the Your Account page but still need >> to get in touch with us about your order, you can find an e-mail form >> in our Help department at http://www.amazon.com/help/ >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Please note: This e-mail was sent from a notification-only address >> that cannot accept incoming e-mail. Please do not reply to this >> message. >> >> Thank you for shopping with us. >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Amazon.com >> Earth's Biggest Selection >> http://www.amazon.com/ >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail is now available on Australian mobile phones. Go to > http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/signup.asp > From veate at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 05:46:32 2003 From: veate at yahoo.com (Ms. Helle) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 05:46:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Your Amazon.com order has shipped (#102-5169843) Message-ID: <20030807124632.14341.qmail@web14003.mail.yahoo.com> The real bite about Amazon is I live in a city with an Amazon werehouse and still have to pay postage for my items instead of driving accross town to pick them up myself!! I usually get my things a couple of days after ordering if my sister and her friends in the post office are gracious enough to sort the mail properly. *************************************************************************** Sex is like Air It only matters when you aren't getting any --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Thu Aug 7 06:41:39 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:41:39 -0400 Subject: Wherefrom LoCB ? In-Reply-To: <6of3jvsnd70l2q2k8alsqt3o9ntg9m5jhc@4ax.com> References: <67FF5C79.3F98F2A6.00048EA6@aol.com> <20030807015604.GA23357@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <6of3jvsnd70l2q2k8alsqt3o9ntg9m5jhc@4ax.com> Message-ID: <20030807134139.GA34528@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 07:53:43PM -0700, lazarus wrote: > On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 21:56:04 -0400, I wrote: > > >Which mirrors what happened with PoTD. Sigh. Borders used to be > >the best bookstore in the Midwest, bar none. Now that they're a > >chain they've gone considerably downhill. > > Is it possibly a distributor issue? Does B&N have different deals > with different distributors from Borders? Yes, they do. One of Borders features used to be their excellent deals with distributors, usually ensuring that they got theirs faster and more reliably than anyone else. Whoever was managing that is long gone from that position, and their replacements have not been able to keep up the same quality. -- "You are writing children's books, you need to be a ruthless killer." J. K. Rowling, author of the Harry Potter books, in From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Thu Aug 7 06:48:42 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:48:42 -0400 Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030807134842.GC34528@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Thu, Aug 07, 2003 at 12:01:51AM -0700, Tom Swenson wrote: > Accualy, knowing that Dragaerans don't care about the diffrnce between > wine and brandy, or javelines and arrows... They might not /care/ > about timezones. They don't seem to me to be big on fine distinctions > like that. TO them, it may well be that the time is what the orb says > it is, and nothing else matters. A very reasonable attitude. Cross-empire teleport seems to be fairly rare, and it's not at all clear if the empire is wide enough for more than a few hours difference to occur. People might just get the attitude that dawn happens earlier in some places than others, much as summer days are longer in Seattle than San Diego. In fact, in a teleport-based society, they're likely to lose all large-scale sense of geography. If it's more than a few minutes walk, it's teleport-based. For an example of same, see Dan Simmons' "Ilium". -- "You are writing children's books, you need to be a ruthless killer." J. K. Rowling, author of the Harry Potter books, in From zaphod_2002 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 06:53:47 2003 From: zaphod_2002 at hotmail.com (dewey,cheetum&howe) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:53:47 -0400 Subject: Books not yet arrived to booksellers Message-ID: Its the truth... Living in the wilds of westren MA I only happened to find "Paths Of the Dead" in softcover because I was on shopping expo with the MRS in a bigger city. Ive allways had a rough time finding the Vlad novels localy and an even tougher time finding MR Brusts other works...nothings ever in stock unless your Grisham I guess! Any other regions have this problem?.....On another happier note the sci-fi bookclub (http://www.sfbc.com) Has many of the Vlad novels in digest form (example dragon&issola). hope this qualifies as on topic as its my first post From jetdragon at comcast.net Thu Aug 7 07:38:00 2003 From: jetdragon at comcast.net (Jessica) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:38:00 -0500 Subject: [Spoilers] LoCB Questions Message-ID: <001601c35cf1$824e7740$e33dfea9@OSUWARI> S P O I L E R S P A C E I've just finished Castle Black and have some questions/comments/speculation. In no particular order: What is the difference between a Viscount and a Count/Countess? Shouldn't Zerika have asked Daro for permission to enter the city? Tukko: Who is he? What is he? How old is he? Does the Dzur in his title (title?) have to do with the house or the mountain? What does he do exactly (besides serve klava)? As a minor note, in one book he was called Chaz; we find that Chaz is indeed part of his name/title. I don't recall Vlad ever mentioning white marble inside Castle Black. Did he not notice it (that would seem to be difficult to miss in a black castle), not mention it, or is it in some private room? Did Morrolan's main chapel get turned into the ballroom or library? The private rooms seem to suggest it's the ballroom after all. There seems to be a fatal flaw in the plot against Pel: Zerika can question him under the Orb to clear his name. Will the inter-house relationships come to a happy ending of any sort? Is Paarfi just trying to make a point about outdated custom (law?)? Does Grita know that she has a half-sister? That's all I can think of for now. -- Jessica From bio_phy at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 07:41:03 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 09:41:03 -0500 Subject: Books not yet arrived to booksellers Message-ID: I picked up my copy of TLoCB yesterday at a local bookseller. It was their only one, and I grabbed it. I haven't finished TPoTD yet, so I brought it in to work to finish over lunch. As a huge fan of the earlier Khaavren romances, I'm finding it harder than expected to get into this new trilogy. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com forum: http://forum.instagiber.com/index.php?h=1&pf=268 stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ >From: "dewey,cheetum&howe" >To: >Subject: Books not yet arrived to booksellers >Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:53:47 -0400 > >Its the truth... >Living in the wilds of westren MA I only happened to find "Paths Of the >Dead" in softcover because I was on shopping expo with the MRS in a bigger >city. Ive allways had a rough time finding the Vlad novels localy and an >even tougher time finding MR Brusts other works...nothings ever in stock >unless your Grisham I guess! Any other regions have this problem?.....On >another happier note the sci-fi bookclub (http://www.sfbc.com) Has many >of the Vlad novels in digest form (example dragon&issola). hope this >qualifies as on topic as its my first post _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From rick at 404.978.org Thu Aug 7 08:20:29 2003 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:20:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: <1375C9D4.61294465.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <1375C9D4.61294465.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <3780.192.168.1.1.1060269629.squirrel@404.978.org> > Philip Hart writes: > >>On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: >> >>> [Aside: Could you please edit your "To:" & "Cc:" such that >>> your replies only go to the list (or to me, but not both, >>> since I only need one copy)? Thanks.] >> >> Aside - since it's less work for the receiver to delete a >> double email than for the sender edit the cc/to (under >> pine, anyway), I don't care about receiving extras, but >> will honor your request - do others care? Most enlightened mailers offer a "reply to sender" or "reply to list" feature, rather than just hitting "reply all" to everything. Learning this habit has kept me from sending many messages to inappropriate places, and I highly reccommend it. -Rick From bio_phy at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 08:07:27 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 10:07:27 -0500 Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ Message-ID: I use Hotmail so that this activity doesn't go through my company's e-mail servers. As such, I'm left with Reply and Reply To All buttons. I Reply To All and then manually remove the original poster's e-mail address so the list gets the reply (and the original poster gets only one copy of it). I consider that a marginally awkward solution, but this is a relatively low traffice e-mail list and I don't mind following basic discussion list e-mail posting etiquette. In short, it's no biggie. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com forum: http://forum.instagiber.com/index.php?h=1&pf=268 stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ >From: "Rick Castello" >Reply-To: rick at 404.978.org >To: >Subject: Re: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ >Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:20:29 -0400 (EDT) > > > Philip Hart writes: > > > >>On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > >> > >>> [Aside: Could you please edit your "To:" & "Cc:" such that > >>> your replies only go to the list (or to me, but not both, > >>> since I only need one copy)? Thanks.] > >> > >> Aside - since it's less work for the receiver to delete a > >> double email than for the sender edit the cc/to (under > >> pine, anyway), I don't care about receiving extras, but > >> will honor your request - do others care? > > Most enlightened mailers offer a "reply to sender" or > "reply to list" feature, rather than just hitting "reply > all" to everything. > > Learning this habit has kept me from sending many messages > to inappropriate places, and I highly reccommend it. > > -Rick > > > _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jalipaz at stanford.edu Thu Aug 7 08:14:49 2003 From: jalipaz at stanford.edu (Julie Alipaz) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 08:14:49 -0700 Subject: Wherefrom LoCB ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Has anyone on the left bank of the US seen LoCB in any bookstores >yet? (facing North, of course) > >MALADICTIONS!!! on all distributors! The Borders bookstore computer >thinks it's not even published yet. The Bookstores in Monterey (borders and waldens) say that the release date has been pushed back to the end of AUG.? How can this be true is some of you guys have purchased it. Amazon says about 24 hours--I tjinl I will order it from Amazon-- jaa From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 08:36:00 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:36:00 +0000 Subject: Spoilers? Message-ID: >From: Tucker > >Orca is book seven of the series, though. I could easily see someone >devouring Book of Jhereg and doing the "Must have more!" thing, buying the >next two trades and whatever else they can find and signing up for the >mailing list immediately. > It has been my case during the past four or five months. I entered the list having read just until phoenix and TPG and, although I have managed to read almost all the dragaeran series, I have appreciated the spoilers alerts and I have been surprised with both big surprises mentioned (sexy jhereg and Godslayer). _________________________________________________________________ Descubre el mayor cat?logo de coches de la Red en MSN Motor. http://motor.msn.es/researchcentre/ From simbelmyne at softhome.net Thu Aug 7 08:41:30 2003 From: simbelmyne at softhome.net (emily frawley) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 11:41:30 -0400 Subject: Wherefrom LoCB ? In-Reply-To: <20030807134139.GA34528@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <6of3jvsnd70l2q2k8alsqt3o9ntg9m5jhc@4ax.com> <67FF5C79.3F98F2A6.00048EA6@aol.com> <20030807015604.GA23357@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <6of3jvsnd70l2q2k8alsqt3o9ntg9m5jhc@4ax.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20030807114130.007e8e50@mail.softhome.net> Is it possibly a distributor issue? Does B&N have different deals >> with different distributors from Borders? > >Yes, they do. One of Borders features used to be their excellent deals >with distributors, usually ensuring that they got theirs faster and more >reliably than anyone else. Whoever was managing that is long gone from >that position, and their replacements have not been able to keep up >the same quality. > As far as I know, B&N and Border's both use Ingram as a distributor, at least in this area of Virginia. However, I am also fairly sure thaty they get shipments on different days and possibly use different trucking companies, which may explain some of the discrepancies in deliveries of LoCB. Emily (Waldenbook's Slave) From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 08:50:17 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:50:17 +0000 Subject: Reign in hell and Dragaera Message-ID: First of all, I must say that I have been off-line during the last week, so I had 181 messages that obviusly I haven't read. Sorry if anyone has addressed anyone directly to me. Change of subject. While waiting until I manage to get a copy of TLoCB i have reab Steven's fist novel, To Regin in Hell, and I guessed which house fits better to each one of the main characters. Here a spoiler alert may be needed, so here it is: SPOILER ALERT TO REIGN IN HELL * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Here are my proposals: - Yahwe: Phoenix (e'Tortaalik in fact). - Yeshua: Dragon. - Raphael: Issola. - Satan: Lyorn. - Abdiel: Yendi. - Mephistopheles: Jhereg or Yendi, I'm not sure. - Lucifer: Athyra. - Sith and its fellow whose name I do not remember: Teckla. - The whole thing of the illiaster and cacaostrum: Chaos and ancient sorcery. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Compras: Veinte tiendas personales abiertas todo el d?a. http://www.msn.es/compras/ From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 09:04:30 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 16:04:30 +0000 Subject: Reign in hell and Dragaera Message-ID: Sorry, I haven't checked it.Say it is one of his first novels. >From: "Casey Rousseau" > >you wrote: > > Change of subject. While waiting until I manage to get a copy of > > TLoCB i have reab Steven's fist novel, To Regin in Hell, and I > >Unless Steve says differently in an intro to the trade paper edition, I'm >certain that TRiH is Steve's _second_ novel. I bought them in original >massmarket paper with my paper route earnings. Oh, and that's the way >Steve >lists them on his site: http://www.dreamcafe.com/books.html. > > _________________________________________________________________ Localiza y ponte en contacto con tus antiguos compa?eros de clase en MSN Compa?eros. http://mipasado.msn.es/ From TimN at rcn.com Thu Aug 7 09:30:15 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:30:15 -0400 Subject: T.S.J., was: Re: Spoilers References: Message-ID: <003001c35d01$2fd451a0$d916fea9@ananda> I propose that we begin referring to her en masse as "the sexy Jhereg". You know, kinda like "The Scottish Play" And she IS! ----- Original Message ----- From: Iv?n Rebollo To: ; Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 11:36 AM Subject: Re: Spoilers? > > > > >From: Tucker > > > > >Orca is book seven of the series, though. I could easily see someone > >devouring Book of Jhereg and doing the "Must have more!" thing, buying the > >next two trades and whatever else they can find and signing up for the > >mailing list immediately. > > > > It has been my case during the past four or five months. I entered the list > having read just until phoenix and TPG and, although I have managed to read > almost all the dragaeran series, I have appreciated the spoilers alerts and > I have been surprised with both big surprises mentioned (sexy jhereg and > Godslayer). > > _________________________________________________________________ > Descubre el mayor cat?logo de coches de la Red en MSN Motor. > http://motor.msn.es/researchcentre/ > From mr1 at rcosta.com Thu Aug 7 11:10:17 2003 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 14:10:17 -0400 Subject: Wherefrom LoCB ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3F325DC9.19889.1067CE3@localhost> On 6 Aug 2003 at 9:00, James Griffin wrote > Has anyone on the left bank of the US seen LoCB in any bookstores yet? > (facing North, of course) > > MALADICTIONS!!! on all distributors! The Borders bookstore computer > thinks it's not even published yet. > > James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN > I spotted copies in both Borders and Barnes & Noble in downtown Boston. Had Amazon not told me this morning that my order was ready to ship I'd have picked one up today. M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From usagigoya at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 11:46:09 2003 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 18:46:09 +0000 Subject: [Spoilers] LoCB Questions Message-ID: > > > >S >P >O >I >L >E >R > >S >P >A >C >E > > > >From: "Jessica" > > > >I've just finished Castle Black and have some >questions/comments/speculation. In no particular order: I have not finished it yet, actually just started it and trying to read it slowly so that I can savior each and every little bit of it. > >Tukko: Who is he? What is he? How old is he? Does the Dzur in his title >(title?) have to do with the house or the mountain? What does he do exactly >(besides serve klava)? As a minor note, in one book he was called Chaz; we >find that Chaz is indeed part of his name/title. Note 1: Tukko was also the name of the Jhereg who ran the tavern where Khavren (just can't seem to spell this right!) aquired the horses to go and arrest Adron near the end of FIVE HUNDRED YEARS AFTER (which I just finished re-read again). Note 2: I still think Tukko / Chaz is really Mario (Sethra was a little pissed with him after he killed the Emperer while she (Sethra) was supposed to be guarding him). Or maybe he didn't teleport perfectly? Can't wait to see what in LoCB made you bring him up... >I don't recall Vlad ever mentioning white marble inside Castle Black. Did >he not notice it (that would seem to be difficult to miss in a black >castle), not mention it, or is it in some private room? Vlad describes the Halls of Verra as white marble(?), maybe / most likely there is some connection. >That's all I can think of for now. Here is something... how come Verra is never (that I seem to recall) mentioned in THE PHOENIX GUARDS or FIVE HUNDRED YEARS AFTER, beyond the birth of Aliera, that is...? Actually, was she even mentioned then? Any idea what her status was at the time? i.e. was she able to manifest there and then? >-- >Steve _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From alexx at TheWorld.com Thu Aug 7 14:03:15 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:03:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: from "Philip Hart" at Aug 06, 2003 12:32:35 PM Message-ID: <200308072103.RAA11664134@shell.TheWorld.com> > On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > > Hours have 60 minutes (FH 256). Hours and minutes are apparently > > identical to their Terran counterparts, and were presumably established by > > the original Terran colonists (see below). > > I see no evidence for equating Dragaeran and Terran minutes and hours. > It seems unlikely to me that they could be equivalent. Of course it's > possible that the ratio of days is exactly 30/24, but 29/24 is as likely, > as is (29.1)/24. But in either of the latter cases, I would anticipate > the minute being changed so that there would be an even number of hours. > As long as the second stayed the same, I don't think the physicists would > care. > > In John M. Ford's great _Growing Up Weightless_, which is set on the moon, > the lunar society uses 25 hour days with the final hour being 12.5 minutes > long. Obviously such an arrangement isn't possible without computers - so > pre-Orb, there must have been some accomodation in the non-exact case. I really like this solution. It feels like what earth colonists would actually do. In fact, I'm adding a suggestion to this effect to the next version of the Timeline (with credit). > > There are 17 months in the year, of 17 days each (PG 59). Both days and > > months are named after the Houses. > > Does the Cycle favor the Dzur on the day of the Dzur in the month of the > Dzur? I imagine the empire's stock market must oscillate a lot... My (totally-usupported-by-textev) theory would be that you could see such an effect with statistical analysis, but that local variation would be strong enough to make it not very useful. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx Sex between a man and a woman can be wonderful, provided you get between the right man and the right woman. [Seen on a Nancy Button, http://www.nancybuttons.com/] From alexx at TheWorld.com Thu Aug 7 14:15:18 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:15:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: from "Philip Hart" at Aug 06, 2003 02:26:14 PM Message-ID: <200308072115.RAA11394609@shell.TheWorld.com> > On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > > The point of my argument, and perhaps we're arguing past each other, is > that it's likely that the Dragaeran colonists either maintained the Terran > second/minute/hour and instituted a lunar system, [snip] >Obviously > the former system wouldn't work after the loss of technology, and in fact > isn't present by the Paarfiad, That's an overly strong statement. Just because neither Paarfi nor Vlad has mentioned that, for instance "the last hour of the day only has 53 minutes and 27.23 seconds", that doesn't mean that it isn't so. Such a fact would be part of standard background knowledge and hence not worth mentioning unless it became a plot point for some reason. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "...it turns out that my inward self ended up just having to go on a little fifteen-year (minus a week) stroll through... what's the phrase from Lennon's "Mind Games"? Through "Absolute Elsewhere." At that point my portrayal and my actual self remerged into a mostly blissful union, and (God willing) I look forward to them... us... ME living happily ever after. ("Heehee -- 'Them,' he says." "All right, all right, that's enough.")" -- Dave Sim in correspondence with Alan Moore about _From Hell_ From alexx at TheWorld.com Thu Aug 7 14:26:37 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:26:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: from "Philip Hart" at Aug 06, 2003 04:44:24 PM Message-ID: <200308072126.RAA11455784@shell.TheWorld.com> > > Ok, well, this disputes an element of Alexx's Timeline (no pun intended), > which is perhaps more reliable than the Texts themselves - Well, I'm flattered, but I completely disagree with this. While I probably look at things with a different eye than SKZB, I certainly don't have anything close to the mental time-investment or authorial authority that he has. My mandate is to try and reconcile all the textev, pointing out apparent contradictions as I find them, and, ideally, finding clever solutions to make them not actually be contradictions. Steve's manadate is to Write Cool Stories. If some of my notes are of some small assistance in that process, I am, again, flattered and honored, but I Am Not The Author. [I still have a niggling suspicion that he was thinking specifically of me when he decided to not have Morrolan physically present at Zerika's battle atop Deathmist. It has certainly been driving me slightly nuts. For the moment, I'm going with the theory involving Tazendra, but I'm not going to put the details of that theory in the timeline until it is either proved or disproved. It's a complex enough idea that it would definitely constitute a spoiler if accurate.] > > Modern Dragaerans care; I was referring to preindustrial cultures > > (those lacking fine engineering) in general (although starting to care > > about finer gradations of time helps propel such engineering research > > that then develops it). And of course, the Orb is a digital computer > > as far as timekeeping is concerned, and so could track such variation, > > if that is in fact how they wished to go about things (not that I have > > any certainty about whether they do or not). > > My assertion was that while the Empire is preindustrial, it's technical, > and as such might (I'd think must) have for millennia cared about say > how long to subject a dagger to Lady X's ensorcelling rays. But would you assert that they had any such care in the pre-Orb days? We don't have any solid textev on what the state of Magic Theory was in those days (apart from vague references to Shamans). Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "...I found myself seemingly in conversation with an entity that identified itself as "One of the Nine Dukes," and then upon closer interrogation as "Asmoday." Its "body," when I asked it to show me what it looked like, consisted of a shifting and shimmering latticework of repeated spider motifs, all identical but at different scales. These, while keeping their colouring consistent, appeared to be constantly turning themselves inside out through a spatial dimension that was foreign to me, becoming on the reverse a similar shifting lattice, this time with a reiterated lizard motif. This would turn itself inside out and become the mesh of spiders again, and so on. As a constant background to this effect, there was a beautiful pattern composed of peackock's-tail eyes. The entire thing was like a 360-degree sphere or field of presence that surrounded my head, moving and speaking lucidly to me (and with great politeness and charm, it must be said)." -- Alan Moore in correspondence with Dave Sim about _From Hell_ From alexx at TheWorld.com Thu Aug 7 14:28:56 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:28:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: from "David Silberstein" at Aug 06, 2003 05:28:24 PM Message-ID: <200308072128.RAA11546029@shell.TheWorld.com> > > The statement in the timeline that there are 60 minutes per hour, > cited from FHYA 256, might well be an error on the part of Paarfi > and/or Brust. Note references to a 24-hour day, later changed to > a 30-hour day. Now *this* is certainly a valid out for Brust, if he wants one. A slightly *cheap* out, but certainly usable :-) Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "In addition to this, it strikes me that maybe people sort of expect guys with haircuts and beards like mine to rave and prophesy every once in a while, and so don't pay it much attention. You've probably just got the wrong hairstylist, Dave. Maybe I could set myself up as an image consultant and spin doctor to the discriminating necromancer." -- Alan Moore in correspondence with Dave Sim about _From Hell_ From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Aug 7 14:34:55 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 14:34:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: <200308072126.RAA11455784@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <200308072126.RAA11455784@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > Ok, well, this disputes an element of Alexx's Timeline (no pun intended), > > which is perhaps more reliable than the Texts themselves - > > Well, I'm flattered, but I completely disagree with this. While I Maybe my statement above is correct, maybe not - it was written in part to evoke Vlad-trying-to-get-a-spike-through-his-head-from-Verra though. > battle atop Deathmist. It has certainly been driving me slightly nuts. ^^^^^^^^^ Did I miss this? > > > Modern Dragaerans care; I was referring to preindustrial cultures... > > > > My assertion was that while the Empire is preindustrial, it's technical... > > But would you assert that they had any such care in the pre-Orb days? > We don't have any solid textev on what the state of Magic Theory was > in those days (apart from vague references to Shamans). I suspect this argument lost coherency a while back, at least on my part. From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Thu Aug 7 14:29:02 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 14:29:02 -0700 Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: <200308072103.RAA11664134@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <200308072103.RAA11664134@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:03:15 -0400 (EDT), you wrote: >> On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: >> > >> > There are 17 months in the year, of 17 days each (PG 59). Both days and >> > months are named after the Houses. >> >> Does the Cycle favor the Dzur on the day of the Dzur in the month of the >> Dzur? I imagine the empire's stock market must oscillate a lot... > >My (totally-usupported-by-textev) theory would be that you could see such >an effect with statistical analysis, but that local variation would be >strong enough to make it not very useful. > Here's an odd question. Why would they have months if they can't see the moon? Just a terran holdover? For that many thousands of years? -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From pgranzeau at cox.net Thu Aug 7 14:48:39 2003 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 16:48:39 -0500 Subject: [Spoilers] LoCB Questions In-Reply-To: <001601c35cf1$824e7740$e33dfea9@OSUWARI> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030807163612.01dcf2a0@pop.east.cox.net> At 09:38 08/07/2003, Jessica wrote: >S >P >O >I >L >E >R > >S >P >A >C >E > > > > > > >I've just finished Castle Black and have some >questions/comments/speculation. In no particular order: > >What is the difference between a Viscount and a Count/Countess? Shouldn't >Zerika have asked Daro for permission to enter the city? Until and unless SKZB clarifies, we don't actually know. A viscount is a lower rank than a count (probably "vice count"). British practice would mean that Pero isn't Viscount of Adrilankha in his own right, he bears his mother's _second_ title as a courtesy title. (I'm reading, but haven't read that far, just yet). Early in the book, Morrolan is told he would be Count of Southmoor, but later Southmoor is referred to as a duchy, not a county, so I don't know what customs prevail in Dragaera. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From alexx at TheWorld.com Thu Aug 7 14:56:29 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:56:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Spoilers] LoCB Questions In-Reply-To: <001601c35cf1$824e7740$e33dfea9@OSUWARI> from "Jessica" at Aug 07, 2003 09:38:00 AM Message-ID: <200308072156.RAA11510222@shell.TheWorld.com> > > > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > > S > P > A > C > E > > > > > > > I've just finished Castle Black and have some = > questions/comments/speculation. In no particular order: > > What is the difference between a Viscount and a Count/Countess? = > Shouldn't Zerika have asked Daro for permission to enter the city? It may be that Zerika technically ought to have asked Daro for permission to enter Whitecrest County. But perhaps this was not practical (if her link to the Orb had not yet been renewed, or if Zerika didn't know her well enough for pyschic communication). Or perhaps it *was* done, but was sufficiently uninteresting that Paarfi omitted it. > Tukko: Who is he? Well, Tukko may not actually be a name, but just a colloquialization of part of his title (which contains the word "Tukknaro"). > What is he? He's clearly a servant. Yet, as of LoCB, he's clearly also some sort of advisor to Sethra. He is "bound" in some manner that he prefers not to discuss. He does not seem to have any direct link to the gods, though he is capable of discussing their motives intelligently. >How old is he? Well, he gets to call Sethra *freaking* Lavode "young one". That sure made *my* eyebrows shoot up! > Does the Dzur in his title = > (title?) have to do with the house or the mountain? I'm betting mountain. >What does he do = > exactly (besides serve klava)? As a minor note, in one book he was = > called Chaz; we find that Chaz is indeed part of his name/title. If Dzur Mountain is the Jenoine equivalent of NORAD HQ, maybe Tukko is part of (all of?) the "maintenance staff". He could be a creation of the Jenoine (he refers to them as "Makers"), and "programmed" to carry out the wishes of the current "owner" of the mountain. I'm betting that his title translates to something like "Servant of Dzur Mountain" in some suitably ancient and obscure language. > Did Morrolan's main chapel get turned into the ballroom or library? The = > private rooms seem to suggest it's the ballroom after all. Well, M has already changed his mind once, and the castle isn't complete yet :-) > There seems to be a fatal flaw in the plot against Pel: Zerika can = > question him under the Orb to clear his name.=20 If she thinks of it (instead of reacting emotionally immediately). If Pel consents (risking every plot the Yendi has ever come up with). For that matter, questioning someone under the Orb might make the whole affair (pun intended) a matter of public record; something that Zerika might well be hesitant to do. Or, maybe the plotters are idiots; stranger things have happened. > Will the inter-house relationships come to a happy ending of any sort? = Well, the Dumas model never got a happy ending from his romance (though the parallels here are quite weak). It does seem unlikely that they can marry while remaining part of the aristocracy of the Empire. Of course, as of the end of LoCB, "aristocrat" is no longer part of Piro's self-image... > Is Paarfi just trying to make a point about outdated custom (law?)? Well, he mentions in FHYA (pages 68-69 of the hardcover) that Empress Norathar has passed legislation to try and better the treatment of half- breeds. And also that this legislation had (so far) little effect on public opinion. > Does Grita know that she has a half-sister? Possibly, but it's hardly certain. She was busy looking for Aliera's soul when Ibronka was born, and was busy following Our Heroes for much of the time following. It is possible that she learned of it after hooking up with Kana (and Habil's) forces. They could certainly have revealed it to her, but probably only inadvertently (assuming they don't know Grita's origins). Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx An onomatopia is a social-political system that just sounds good. [Seen on a Nancy Button, http://www.nancybuttons.com/] From alexx at TheWorld.com Thu Aug 7 15:04:00 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:04:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: from "lazarus" at Aug 07, 2003 02:29:02 PM Message-ID: <200308072204.SAA11283688@shell.TheWorld.com> > Here's an odd question. Why would they have months if they can't see > the moon? Just a terran holdover? For that many thousands of years? Well, *any* theory of Dragaeran history has to account for the fact that there have been no sweeping changes in the way society is structured for approximately 200,000 years. We spent some time discussing theories of this on the list just a few months ago, as I recall. Once you're dealing with a theory that works on that scale, the issue of "months" seems, relatively speaking, small potatoes. Have we firmly established that Dragaera even *has* a moon? They have tides, but there is such a thing as solar tides, and we don't have enough hard data on the solar system to know their probable magnitude. [Hey DDB, did you ever get that private searchable-text of the Dragaera books up and running? I'd be interested if the word "moon" ever comes up...] Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "Artificial Intelligence: the art of making computers that behave like the ones in the movies." -- Bill Bulko From alexx at TheWorld.com Thu Aug 7 15:05:46 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:05:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: from "Philip Hart" at Aug 07, 2003 02:34:55 PM Message-ID: <200308072205.SAA11537808@shell.TheWorld.com> > > > battle atop Deathmist. It has certainly been driving me slightly nuts. > ^^^^^^^^^ > Did I miss this? No, I just thinko'd. I meant "Deathgate Falls". Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx A is for Azathoth, changing his form. B's for Beelzebub. He keeps us warm. C's for C'thulhu. We wait for his call. D is for Dagon, the father of all. E is for Eldrich. Euclidian, too. F is for Foul Fiends. I like 'em. Don't you? -- From Miskatonic Regional Elementary From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Thu Aug 7 14:59:12 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 14:59:12 -0700 Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: <200308072204.SAA11283688@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <200308072204.SAA11283688@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:04:00 -0400 (EDT), you wrote: > >> Here's an odd question. Why would they have months if they can't see >> the moon? Just a terran holdover? For that many thousands of years? > >Well, *any* theory of Dragaeran history has to account for the fact that >there have been no sweeping changes in the way society is structured for >approximately 200,000 years. We spent some time discussing theories of >this on the list just a few months ago, as I recall. Once you're dealing >with a theory that works on that scale, the issue of "months" seems, >relatively speaking, small potatoes. > >Have we firmly established that Dragaera even *has* a moon? They have >tides, but there is such a thing as solar tides, and we don't have >enough hard data on the solar system to know their probable magnitude. > >[Hey DDB, did you ever get that private searchable-text of the Dragaera >books up and running? I'd be interested if the word "moon" ever comes >up...] > And how the heck do the Orca navigate without stars? -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Aug 7 15:15:19 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:15:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: References: <200308072204.SAA11283688@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, lazarus wrote: > > And how the heck do the Orca navigate without stars? That's easy - they know the time, and they know the distance (I bet) from the Orb (I assume the speed of sorcery is finite). If that's not enough (and isn't there a reference to compasses somewhere?) they probably have simple charms that indicate distance to reference points... Otherwise they hug the coasts or know the currents out to the islands... From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Thu Aug 7 15:28:26 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:28:26 -0400 Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: <200308072115.RAA11394609@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <200308072115.RAA11394609@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <20030807222826.GB52230@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Thu, Aug 07, 2003 at 05:15:18PM -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: > That's an overly strong statement. Just because neither Paarfi nor Vlad > has mentioned that, for instance "the last hour of the day only has 53 > minutes and 27.23 seconds", that doesn't mean that it isn't so. Such a > fact would be part of standard background knowledge and hence not worth > mentioning unless it became a plot point for some reason. As supporting arguement, note that when we talk about January, Feb, etc, we don't call out the odd number of days from month to month and year to year unless it's explicitly important. -- "You are writing children's books, you need to be a ruthless killer." J. K. Rowling, author of the Harry Potter books, in From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Thu Aug 7 15:20:14 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:20:14 -0700 Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: References: <200308072204.SAA11283688@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <54k5jvgmq0r31qshqfefjb8dtl8vk1kq71@4ax.com> On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:15:19 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: > > >On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, lazarus wrote: >> >> And how the heck do the Orca navigate without stars? > >That's easy - they know the time, and they know the distance (I bet) from >the Orb (I assume the speed of sorcery is finite). If that's not enough >(and isn't there a reference to compasses somewhere?) they probably have >simple charms that indicate distance to reference points... Now that's an interesting idea. The Orb as a GPS device? -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Aug 7 15:31:44 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:31:44 -0700 Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: <200308072126.RAA11455784@shell.TheWorld.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030807153049.03975e60@localhost> At 05:26 PM 8/7/2003 -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: > >[I still have a niggling suspicion that he was thinking specifically >of me when he decided to not have Morrolan physically present at >Zerika's battle atop Deathmist. It has certainly been driving me >slightly nuts. Now, would I do that? Heh heh heh From bio_phy at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 15:37:15 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 17:37:15 -0500 Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ Message-ID: >At 05:26 PM 8/7/2003 -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: >> >>[I still have a niggling suspicion that he was thinking specifically >>of me when he decided to not have Morrolan physically present at >>Zerika's battle atop Deathmist. It has certainly been driving me >>slightly nuts. > >Now, would I do that? > >Heh heh heh Perhaps yes, perhaps no, but I bet *Paarfi* wouldn't think twice. ; ) johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com forum: http://forum.instagiber.com/index.php?h=1&pf=268 stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Aug 7 15:36:14 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:36:14 -0700 Subject: [Spoilers] LoCB Questions In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030807163612.01dcf2a0@pop.east.cox.net> References: <001601c35cf1$824e7740$e33dfea9@OSUWARI> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030807153510.03974060@localhost> At 04:48 PM 8/7/2003 -0500, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: >Early in the book, Morrolan is told he would be Count of Southmoor, but >later Southmoor is referred to as a duchy, not a county, so I don't know >what customs prevail in Dragaera. Any reference to Southmoor as a Duchy in _Lord of Castle Black_ is an error, and one I should have caught, and that should be corrected in the paperback. Grrrrr From davids at kithrup.com Thu Aug 7 15:47:55 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:47:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > >On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, lazarus wrote: >> >> And how the heck do the Orca navigate without stars? > >That's easy - they know the time, and they know the distance (I bet) >from the Orb (I assume the speed of sorcery is finite). If that's >not enough (and isn't there a reference to compasses somewhere?) they >probably have simple charms that indicate distance to reference >points... > >Otherwise they hug the coasts or know the currents out to the >islands... > In addition, if the Furnace is at all visible through the Overcast, they can get their latitude by measuring its height above the horizon at local noon. Sextants and quadrants aren't that difficult to make, and approximate guesstimates can even be done using just ones fingers, according to this page on navigation I found. Longitide is even easier, since they have a completely accurate clock at all times (except when they are too close to Greenaere). That would be why navigators would be interested in time zones, incidentally. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Aug 7 16:24:09 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 16:24:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: <54k5jvgmq0r31qshqfefjb8dtl8vk1kq71@4ax.com> References: <200308072204.SAA11283688@shell.TheWorld.com> <54k5jvgmq0r31qshqfefjb8dtl8vk1kq71@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, lazarus wrote: > On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:15:19 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: > > > >On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, lazarus wrote: > >> > >> And how the heck do the Orca navigate without stars? > > > >That's easy - they know the time, and they know the distance (I bet) from > >the Orb (I assume the speed of sorcery is finite). If that's not enough > >(and isn't there a reference to compasses somewhere?) they probably have > >simple charms that indicate distance to reference points... > > Now that's an interesting idea. The Orb as a GPS device? If I understand GPS, it takes two satellites. What I was thinking was: The Orb knows where you are, so it can tell you. Teleportation probably requires this capability. Vlad in fact refers to "coordinates" at some point in _Jhereg_, I believe. Or you have the Orb send you a wavefront, you bounce it back, and then you adjust the frequency until you get a standing wave; the Orb does the math for you and tells you the distance. Or you do the beacon thing above - say two fixed sorcery mirrors somewhere which you can bounce a wave off. If the Orb's timing is fine enough (and I guess it would have to be) then instead of the frequency-adjustment thing you can just do a ping and have it measure the time. All assuming the speed of sorcery isn't infinite. From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Thu Aug 7 16:36:08 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 16:36:08 -0700 Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: References: <200308072204.SAA11283688@shell.TheWorld.com> <54k5jvgmq0r31qshqfefjb8dtl8vk1kq71@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 16:24:09 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: > > >On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, lazarus wrote: > >> On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:15:19 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >> > >> >On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, lazarus wrote: >> >> >> >> And how the heck do the Orca navigate without stars? >> > >> >That's easy - they know the time, and they know the distance (I bet) from >> >the Orb (I assume the speed of sorcery is finite). If that's not enough >> >(and isn't there a reference to compasses somewhere?) they probably have >> >simple charms that indicate distance to reference points... >> >> Now that's an interesting idea. The Orb as a GPS device? > > >If I understand GPS, it takes two satellites. What I was thinking was: > >The Orb knows where you are, so it can tell you. Teleportation probably >requires this capability. Vlad in fact refers to "coordinates" at some >point in _Jhereg_, I believe. > >Or you have the Orb send you a wavefront, you bounce it back, and then you >adjust the frequency until you get a standing wave; the Orb does the math >for you and tells you the distance. Or you do the beacon thing above - >say two fixed sorcery mirrors somewhere which you can bounce a wave off. >If the Orb's timing is fine enough (and I guess it would have to be) then >instead of the frequency-adjustment thing you can just do a ping and have >it measure the time. All assuming the speed of sorcery isn't infinite. > So it's sort of a GPS device. :-) Is there any textev for this, or are we speculating? I totally agree that this would be an effective and completely plausible effect, it'd just be neat if we had support for it. It's quite possible that, instead of big lamps in the lighthouses, they could have lamps /and/ psychic beacons ( saying, "Go away, I'm a rock!"). (Hey, neat. Four punctuation marks in a row!) Man, that Orb is getting cooler and cooler. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Aug 7 16:48:33 2003 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:48:33 EDT Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ Message-ID: <103.33d5fc33.2c643f51@aol.com> On 8/7/2003 Phillip @ SLAC.Stanford.EDU wrote: >>On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, lazarus wrote: >> On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:15:19 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >> > > >>On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, lazarus wrote: > >>> > >>> And how the heck do the Orca navigate without stars? > >>> > >>That's easy - they know the time, and they know the distance (I bet) from > >>the Orb (I assume the speed of sorcery is finite). If that's not enough > >>(and isn't there a reference to compasses somewhere?) they probably have > >>simple charms that indicate distance to reference points... >>> > >Now that's an interesting idea. The Orb as a GPS device? >If I understand GPS, it takes two satellites. What I was thinking was: >The Orb knows where you are, so it can tell you. Teleportation probably >requires this capability. Vlad in fact refers to "coordinates" at some >point in _Jhereg_, I believe. >Or you have the Orb send you a wavefront, you bounce it back, and then you >adjust the frequency until you get a standing wave; the Orb does the math >for you and tells you the distance. Or you do the beacon thing above - >say two fixed sorcery mirrors somewhere which you can bounce a wave off. >If the Orb's timing is fine enough (and I guess it would have to be) then >instead of the frequency-adjustment thing you can just do a ping and have >it measure the time. All assuming the speed of sorcery isn't infinite. The mirrors would have to be in orbit because land features would get in the way, or the curve of the planet would cut off line of sight. Maybe they can innately locate the stars. Or they have a sorcerous device that doesn't need satellites or mirrors at all. We are dealing with a civilization that can teleport, GPS shouldn't be too far out of their league. Then again, maybe it's one of the great mysteries of Dragaera. John D. Barbato OD From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Aug 7 16:57:57 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 16:57:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: <103.33d5fc33.2c643f51@aol.com> References: <103.33d5fc33.2c643f51@aol.com> Message-ID: > > >Or you have the Orb send you a wavefront, you bounce it back, and then you > >adjust the frequency until you get a standing wave; the Orb does the math > >for you and tells you the distance. Or you do the beacon thing above - > >say two fixed sorcery mirrors somewhere which you can bounce a wave off. > >If the Orb's timing is fine enough (and I guess it would have to be) then > >instead of the frequency-adjustment thing you can just do a ping and have > >it measure the time. All assuming the speed of sorcery isn't infinite. > > The mirrors would have to be in orbit because land features would get in the > way, or the curve of the planet would cut off line of sight. Maybe they can > innately locate the stars. Or they have a sorcerous device that doesn't need > satellites or mirrors at all. We are dealing with a civilization that can > teleport, GPS shouldn't be too far out of their league. Then again, maybe it's one of > the great mysteries of Dragaera. > > John D. Barbato OD The Orb is not a line-of-sight device; plus I believe sorcerous waves can be transmitted through objects - consider the Quick Road. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Aug 7 17:04:06 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 17:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: References: <200308072204.SAA11283688@shell.TheWorld.com> <54k5jvgmq0r31qshqfefjb8dtl8vk1kq71@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, lazarus wrote: > On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 16:24:09 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: > >The Orb knows where you are, so it can tell you. Teleportation probably > >requires this capability. Vlad in fact refers to "coordinates" at some > >point in _Jhereg_, I believe. > > > > ... > >say two fixed sorcery mirrors somewhere which you can bounce a wave off. > >If the Orb's timing is fine enough (and I guess it would have to be) then > >instead of the frequency-adjustment thing you can just do a ping and have > >it measure the time. All assuming the speed of sorcery isn't infinite. > > Is there any textev for this, or are we speculating? I totally agree > that this would be an effective and completely plausible effect, it'd > just be neat if we had support for it. We have teleport coordinates, as noted above, and we have common sense (as Paarfi says, he doesn't always bother to describe to us [in exquisite detail {or it would be exquisite if he could finally get to the point} things we know must happen]). I routinely claim support with rather less. From alexx at TheWorld.com Thu Aug 7 17:07:40 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: from "Philip Hart" at Aug 07, 2003 03:17:51 PM Message-ID: <200308080007.UAA11477268@shell.TheWorld.com> > > Where does "thinko'd" come from? It's an adaptation of "typo". I probably got it from Usenet, some years back. It's used to indicate that the mistake was not my fingers hitting the wrong keys, but my brain making the wrong associations. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "Every one who has ever lied to you, *regardless of intent*, has thereby reduced your ability to think rationally." -- Greg Wageman From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Thu Aug 7 17:05:59 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 17:05:59 -0700 Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: References: <200308072204.SAA11283688@shell.TheWorld.com> <54k5jvgmq0r31qshqfefjb8dtl8vk1kq71@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 17:04:06 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: > > >On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, lazarus wrote: > >> On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 16:24:09 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: > >> >The Orb knows where you are, so it can tell you. Teleportation probably >> >requires this capability. Vlad in fact refers to "coordinates" at some >> >point in _Jhereg_, I believe. >> > >> > ... >> >say two fixed sorcery mirrors somewhere which you can bounce a wave off. >> >If the Orb's timing is fine enough (and I guess it would have to be) then >> >instead of the frequency-adjustment thing you can just do a ping and have >> >it measure the time. All assuming the speed of sorcery isn't infinite. >> >> Is there any textev for this, or are we speculating? I totally agree >> that this would be an effective and completely plausible effect, it'd >> just be neat if we had support for it. > >We have teleport coordinates, as noted above, and we have common sense >(as Paarfi says, he doesn't always bother to describe to us [in exquisite >detail {or it would be exquisite if he could finally get to the point} >things we know must happen]). I routinely claim support with rather less. I'll leaf through Jhereg later and try to find the context of Vlad's use of "coordinates". I really wasn't trying to be contentious here, I was hoping to find other mentions in the books. I agree with the common sense point, hence my saying it's completely plausible. I do notice Vlad at one point psionically asking Kragar, "Can you get a fix on me?" with the reply, "It'll take a while." -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Thu Aug 7 17:22:41 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:22:41 -0400 Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: <200308080007.UAA11477268@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <200308080007.UAA11477268@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <20030808002241.GA54246@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Thu, Aug 07, 2003 at 08:07:40PM -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > > Where does "thinko'd" come from? > > It's an adaptation of "typo". I probably got it from Usenet, some years > back. It's used to indicate that the mistake was not my fingers hitting > the wrong keys, but my brain making the wrong associations. There is also 'mouseo', which is a mistake with the obvious device. See 'The Hackers Dictionary.' -- "You are writing children's books, you need to be a ruthless killer." J. K. Rowling, author of the Harry Potter books, in From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Aug 7 17:21:58 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 17:21:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: <200308080007.UAA11477268@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <200308080007.UAA11477268@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: re "Deathmist": > > > > Where does "thinko'd" come from? > > It's an adaptation of "typo". I probably got it from Usenet, some years > back. It's used to indicate that the mistake was not my fingers hitting > the wrong keys, but my brain making the wrong associations. I wrote "greymist bomb" earlier, maybe "Deathmist" was an echo. Perhaps it's also a prereference - Paarfi may use this locution in _TEoDM_ (SKZB, are you listening?) if he talks about Deathgate Falls - like "overcast" and "enclouding", why use just one name? > "Every one who has ever lied to you, *regardless of intent*, has > thereby reduced your ability to think rationally." > -- Greg Wageman This .sig is just so wrong. If nothing else, no one can think rationally... From frank at exit.com Thu Aug 7 17:43:24 2003 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:43:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: <20030808002241.GA54246@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <200308080043.h780hOii098335@realtime.exit.com> Steve Simmons wrote: > On Thu, Aug 07, 2003 at 08:07:40PM -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > > Where does "thinko'd" come from? > > It's an adaptation of "typo". I probably got it from Usenet, some years > > back. It's used to indicate that the mistake was not my fingers hitting > > the wrong keys, but my brain making the wrong associations. > There is also 'mouseo', which is a mistake with the obvious device. > See 'The Hackers Dictionary.' Not to mention "cut-and-paste-o." _Those_ are embarrassing. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Thu Aug 7 17:55:09 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:55:09 -0400 Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: <200308080043.h780hOii098335@realtime.exit.com> References: <20030808002241.GA54246@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <200308080043.h780hOii098335@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <20030808005509.GA54740@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Thu, Aug 07, 2003 at 05:43:24PM -0700, Frank Mayhar wrote: > Steve Simmons wrote: > > > There is also 'mouseo', which is a mistake with the obvious device. > > See 'The Hackers Dictionary.' > > Not to mention "cut-and-paste-o." > > _Those_ are embarrassing. Yep. Reminds me of one of my old .sigfiles, which I've re-instated just for this post. -- "Cut and paste is not your friend your friend." - Harvey Dreystadt, on seeing a web page with the same phrase mangled again and again and again on a page. [sic] From simbelmyne at softhome.net Thu Aug 7 18:41:41 2003 From: simbelmyne at softhome.net (emily frawley) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 21:41:41 -0400 Subject: Wherefrom LoCB ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20030807214141.007e7b30@mail.softhome.net> At 08:14 AM 8/7/03 -0700, Julie Alipaz wrote: >>Has anyone on the left bank of the US seen LoCB in any bookstores >>yet? (facing North, of course) >> >>MALADICTIONS!!! on all distributors! The Borders bookstore computer >>thinks it's not even published yet. > > The Bookstores in Monterey (borders and waldens) say that the >release date has been pushed back to the end of AUG.? How can this >be true is some of you guys have purchased it. Amazon says about 24 >hours--I tjinl I will order it from Amazon-- > Ehh. They're on crack. I picked up my copy from Walden's today. We got in six copies, four of which have been either bought or borrowed (employee privledges and all that). Emily From TimN at rcn.com Thu Aug 7 21:10:46 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 00:10:46 -0400 Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ References: <200308072204.SAA11283688@shell.TheWorld.com> <54k5jvgmq0r31qshqfefjb8dtl8vk1kq71@4ax.com> Message-ID: <007401c35d63$0c2c9660$d916fea9@ananda> I assume the orb can emit things besides sorcery for the purpose of locating things. It's even possible its Klava(tm) interface accesses the asm of the planet and just asks for a location straight up. The orb is starting to look more and more like an evolving, but solid-state programming library... ----- Original Message ----- From: lazarus To: Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 7:36 PM Subject: Re: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 16:24:09 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: > SNIIIIIIP > > >Or you have the Orb send you a wavefront, you bounce it back, and then you >adjust the frequency until you get a standing wave; the Orb does the math >for you and tells you the distance. Or you do the beacon thing above - >say two fixed sorcery mirrors somewhere which you can bounce a wave off. >If the Orb's timing is fine enough (and I guess it would have to be) then >instead of the frequency-adjustment thing you can just do a ping and have >it measure the time. All assuming the speed of sorcery isn't infinite. > So it's sort of a GPS device. :-) Is there any textev for this, or are we speculating? I totally agree that this would be an effective and completely plausible effect, it'd just be neat if we had support for it. It's quite possible that, instead of big lamps in the lighthouses, they could have lamps /and/ psychic beacons ( saying, "Go away, I'm a rock!"). (Hey, neat. Four punctuation marks in a row!) Man, that Orb is getting cooler and cooler. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Thu Aug 7 21:10:33 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 00:10:33 -0400 Subject: Some Observations on an As Yet Unpublished Novel . . . Message-ID: <20030808041033.GA57031@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> (no spoilers) During the perusal of the second of the volumes of Paarfis fine historical novel, "The Viscount of Adrilankha", one must periodicly pause so as not to overwhelm the senses with pleasures nor to cause the patrons of ones childs dentists, the implacable Hitchcock and Fear, to wonder as to the cause of the continued giggling of the parent while his child remains in the grip of the pliers for the purposes of extraction of teeth of wisdom. (Your humble scribe remains unconvinced of the utility of the extraction of organs of wisdom at a moment when one is preparing to eject said child from the home for a four year sojourn in pursuit of wisdom, but this is neither here nor there, as am I.) During such a pause, the notion entered my somewhat but temporarily disordered mind as to what one of the as-yet-unpublished memoirs of Vlad called Taltos might be concerned with, especially when conjoined with the limitations on the series such that one of the volumes must inevitably be entitled 'Tiassa.' Numerous Tiassa have peopled the writings concerning Dragaera, whether they be those from the inimitable Paarfi (I speak ironicly, of course) or those from the memoirs of Vlad, the phrasings of whom much more resemble that of certain delicate but delectable breakfast delicacies after having been subjected to an excess of time in overheated waters. Lamentably few of those Tiassa have been mentioned by name by either author, and while we mean no insult to the many unnamed Tiassa, the most prominent of the the Tiassa we have had the pleasure of encountering are Khaavren, Daro, and the current novels eponymous character Pel, The Viscount of Adrilankha. As we have seen from Vlads own somewhat spare narration, his own somewhat checkered and possibly exaggerated career (for what mere Easterner could expect a career worth documentation in over seventeen volumes) does indeed overlap with at least one of the three Tiassa whose names we have had the unreserved pleasure of noting just briefly before this terse sentence. Readers of the most cultured and sophisticated palette, inevitably drawn as we are to the elegant and cultured phrasings of Paarfi, are often confused or even repelled by the abbreviated and often classlessly coarse phrasings of Vlad, whose influence is often assumed to be the hopelessly overrated Seamstresstreet but which is actually linked to now largely unread Sprin'tel Smallkentha. With some readers, this has even led to an inability to fully appreciate or even enjoy the tales of Vlad, despite their useful if accidental illustration of the seeds of the changes which took root in the latter days of the reign of Zerika the Fourth and flowered in the excessively just and therefore tumultuous reign of Norathar the Second. While a formal rewrite of the novels of Vlad into a more acceptable form might not be worth the effort, approaching as it does the same levels of difficulty as translation from Eastern to Dragaeran, it cannot be said that there is not some nugget of utility and entertainment in Vlads abbreviated meanderings, not unlike the manner in which a strip of dried kentha has a certain gustatory enjoyment of its own even if it cannot be fully compared to an evening at Valabars (both a topic and an establishment which Paarfi himself neglects, but to which Vlad justly returns repeatedly). It is my small conceit that if there were only some readily apprehendable key which would translate from the excessively abbreviated Vlad to the fulsomely ornate Paarfi and vice-versa, the manifold readers of Paarfi might be able to tolerate if not actually enjoy the stories of Vladimir Taltos while simultaneously permitting one or perhaps both of the latters fans to expand their literary horizons and enjoy the the more cultured tones of the former. With some trepidation I would even go beyond this small conceit and even approach, albeit with appropriate timidity, the possibility of making a suggestion that when the esteemed publishing house Glorious Mountain reaches the time to assemble Vlads own tale of Tiassa, that we be permitted to see the tale both in the voice of and from the viewpoint of Vlad Taltos, and simultaneously in from the viewpoint of the Tiassa (and one which we may hope comes from the esteemed names above) but in the more cultured tones we know actually occurred and are related by Paarfi. In this matter both Vlad and Paarfi (or a student inspired by him) might hold to the traditions established by the two aforementioned authors (although we might gingerly use that term when referring to Vlad), such that Vlad would produce 17 chapters in his own style while Paarfi or his student would augment this to 34 chapters by including those materials which Vlad, either thru ruthlessness, laziness, or ignorance, is unable to present properly. Such a novel might well unite the readerships of both authors, leading to increased pleasures for the cultured and noble followers of Paarfi and the possible employment of the followers of Vlad as lackeys to the aforementioned cultured readers. Anxiously awaiting the response of any of the involved parties to this humble suggestion, I remain, deeply in debt for the ongoing histories of both the inestimable Phoenix Guards and the inadvertent catalyst Vlad Taltos, Steve Simmons, BGS, ScTuC Eng, BOFH. -- "You are writing children's books, you need to be a ruthless killer." J. K. Rowling, author of the Harry Potter books, in From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 22:31:29 2003 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 22:31:29 -0700 Subject: Some Observations on an As Yet Unpublished Novel . . . Message-ID: >From: Steve Simmons >To: Dragaera Mailing List >Subject: Some Observations on an As Yet Unpublished Novel . . . >Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 00:10:33 -0400 > >(no spoilers) > snip >During such a pause, the notion entered my somewhat but temporarily >disordered mind as to what one of the as-yet-unpublished memoirs of >Vlad called Taltos might be concerned with, especially when conjoined >with the limitations on the series such that one of the volumes must >inevitably be entitled 'Tiassa.' Numerous Tiassa have peopled the >writings concerning Dragaera, whether they be those from the inimitable >Paarfi (I speak ironicly, of course) or those from the memoirs of Vlad, >the phrasings of whom much more resemble that of certain delicate but >delectable breakfast delicacies after having been subjected to an excess >of time in overheated waters. Lamentably few of those Tiassa have been >mentioned by name by either author, and while we mean no insult to >the many unnamed Tiassa, the most prominent of the the Tiassa we >have had the pleasure of encountering are Khaavren, Daro, and the >current novels eponymous character Pel, I must hope you have the honor of refering to Piro, son of Khaavren, Inasmuch as Pel is the familiar (though not perhaps strictly accurate) name of a certain person thought to be of the house of the Yendi. (Of which fact, however, we are not entirely certain.) The Viscount of Adrilankha. >As we have seen from Vlads own somewhat spare narration, his own >somewhat checkered and possibly exaggerated career (for what mere >Easterner could expect a career worth documentation in over seventeen >volumes) does indeed overlap with at least one of the three Tiassa >whose names we have had the unreserved pleasure of noting just >briefly before this terse sentence. > snip James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From greyw01f at hotmail.com Fri Aug 8 04:45:20 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 11:45:20 +0000 Subject: Some Observations on an As Yet Unpublished Novel . . . Message-ID: I would immediately and frankly give you all honour and glory for your most expansive use of sarcasm EVER, but for the tiny voice which perhaps suggests that you may be serious, in which case, your honour and glory is redoubled; for your sarcasm is therefore subtle and accomplished. In other news, thank you very much, list, for filling my inbox with email that IS NOT SPAM. :) Jon _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Fri Aug 8 07:35:41 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:35:41 -0400 Subject: Some Observations on an As Yet Unpublished Novel . . . In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030808143541.GC68249@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Thu, Aug 07, 2003 at 10:31:29PM -0700, James Griffin wrote: > >From: Steve Simmons > > . . . the most prominent of the the Tiassa we > >have had the pleasure of encountering are Khaavren, Daro, and the > >current novels eponymous character Pel, > > I must hope you have the honor of refering to Piro, son of Khaavren, > Inasmuch as Pel is the familiar (though not perhaps strictly accurate) name > of a certain person thought to be of the house of the Yendi. (Of which > fact, however, we are not entirely certain.) Paarfi style response: While I regretfully must decline the honor, I leap to say that you are absolutely correct both in detecting my egregious error and in your proposed correction. I can at most plead the lateness of the hour and the diminuation of critical facitilities from exhaustion a the intensity with which I had been perusing the manuscript. Vlad style response: Crap! Yeah, Piro. -- "You are writing children's books, you need to be a ruthless killer." J. K. Rowling, author of the Harry Potter books, in From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Fri Aug 8 12:55:01 2003 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 14:55:01 -0500 Subject: [SPOILERS] _The Lord of Castle Black_ References: <20030803003459.GA863@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <3F340015.1090503@comcast.net> Yay! I finished! / / / / / / / / / / / / I agree with a great deal that Matthew has said. I note that, while The Paths of the Dead ended up as a somewhat finished story (Zerika has emerged with the Orb back into our world), LoCB is by *no* means a finished story, but a cliffhanger in the first degree. *When* does the next one come out again??? Did Brust write the Afterward, or was there another hand? Fun stuff! Mia From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Fri Aug 8 12:55:18 2003 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 14:55:18 -0500 Subject: [(not much of a) SPOILER] _The Lord of Castle Black_ References: <200308031925.PAA11010903@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <3F340026.6060305@comcast.net> Speaking of little things that bring a smile to the face: Steve, are you in fact fond of Iron Chef, or was that one line merely serendipitous? Mia From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Aug 8 13:03:23 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 13:03:23 -0700 Subject: [SPOILERS] _The Lord of Castle Black_ In-Reply-To: <3F340015.1090503@comcast.net> References: <20030803003459.GA863@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030808130242.01dbe280@localhost> At 02:55 PM 8/8/2003 -0500, Mia McDavid wrote: > >Did Brust write the Afterward, or was there another hand? Check the copyright page From scott_bland at hotmail.com Fri Aug 8 13:18:12 2003 From: scott_bland at hotmail.com (Scott Bland) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 15:18:12 -0500 Subject: [SPOILERS] _The Lord of Castle Black_ Message-ID: Neil is Amazing!! Even his old sandman comics were genius. >From: Steven Brust >To: Mia McDavid , "dragaera at dragaera.info" > >Subject: Re: [SPOILERS] _The Lord of Castle Black_ >Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 13:03:23 -0700 > >At 02:55 PM 8/8/2003 -0500, Mia McDavid wrote: >> >>Did Brust write the Afterward, or was there another hand? > >Check the copyright page > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From mtiller at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 8 13:31:40 2003 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 21:31:40 +0100 Subject: LOCB available in UK? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c35dec$167e3220$0101a8c0@markspc> I tried to get my local bookshop to order in a copy of LOCB, their computer said it was being released 'til September 19th..... Has anybody gotten a copy in the UK other than by mail order from the US? Any info greatly received. Thanks Mark From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Fri Aug 8 14:06:11 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 17:06:11 -0400 Subject: [SPOILERS] _The Lord of Castle Black_ In-Reply-To: <20030803003459.GA863@infodancer.org> References: <20030803003459.GA863@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20030808210611.GA76655@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> My belated reply, now that I've read the novel and gotten a good nights sleep. On Sat, Aug 02, 2003 at 07:35:00PM -0500, Matthew Hunter wrote: > [SPOILERS below] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * The comments of the Gods in _The Paths of the Dead_ regarding > Phoenixes come to mind, particularly how "two hidden can combine > to produce one visible". This seems a clear indication of a > recessive gene. . . I believe the text of the various novels argues against this. In at least one case we find someone who's seen to be triple hybrid, ie, 1/2 one house, 1/4 another, and 1/4 a third. If a single gene (or single chromosome) determined house,this would be impossible. It also seems very unlikely that Illista and Zerika will breed. :-) From alexx at TheWorld.com Fri Aug 8 14:36:29 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 17:36:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Chronology comments on LoCB [SPOILERS] Message-ID: <200308082136.RAA11708086@shell.TheWorld.com> . . . spoiler space . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Well, I'm only up to chapter 42 in the timeline revisions, but have already come across some interesting things. Relevant excerpts from the current draft below: 247 I Summer Deathsgate Falls (PD 323-342). [Why I am putting this in early summer, when this is allegedly "nearly a full year after setting off" (PD 323)? Because it solves a later problem with dating in LCB. Piro clearly states that they pursued Grita for more than half a year, starting in the summer (LCB 97). This pursuit seems to have begun no more than 4 days after the battle at Deathgate Falls (LCB 50-60). The pursuit clearly ends in the winter of 247 (LCB 109). Occam's razor says that the "nearly a full year" reference must be wrong, especially as Paarfi is deliberately obscure as to the events which took place during that time. The error may be due to the fact that Zerika *emerges* from the Paths "nearly a full year after setting off".] [Why is Orlaan opposed to Zerika's mission? She has desires for personal revenge against Tazendra and Piro, but no obvious grudge against Zerika.] Zerika IV regains Orb from Paths of the Dead with Morrolan's help (J 79, Ts 98). "at the tender age of one hundred or thereabouts" (Y 64). [Well, Morrolan's involvement has now been cast in considerable doubt. Paarfi makes it quite clear in _The Paths of the Dead_ that Morrolan was nowhere near there at the time. Morrolan's speech at the Falls (Ts 98) makes it quite clear that he *was* there, so either Vlad misremembers that speech, or Morrolan or Paarfi is lying. Of course, Paarfi also goes out of his way to say that Morrolan is capable of lying (PD 45). It's also worth noting that Morrolan's statements (Ts 98) are somewhat inconsistent with other well known facts; he claims that sorcery doesn't work as one approaches Greymist Valley, and that he knows this from personal experience while helping Zerika; but during this period, *no* sorcery could have worked, as the Orb was unavailable. One possible explanation for this discrepancy is that the word "sorcery" here is a mistranslation, possibly for "wizardry". We know that wizardry was possible without the Orb, and that wizardry was explicitly *not* used in the battle above Deathsgate Falls (PD 338). Paarfi seems to think that this non-use was by choice rather than necessity, but he may be incorrect. The reference in _Jhereg_ (J 79) refers to help Morrolan gives Zerika after retrieving the Orb, so may still be completely valid. As to Zerika's alleged tender age (Y 64), Vlad is simply very mistaken.] [snip] Winter LCB, day ~30 Khaavren & company flee from Kana (LCB 91-95). Pel steals Grita's horse (LCB 192) and reports in (LCB 104-106). Piro and company discuss the hunt for Grita (LCB 96-100). They have been in the mountains for "very nearly a year" (LCB 97); a slight exaggeration, as they reached the mountains in the spring of this year. They have been chasing Grita for "All of summer, all of autumn, and much of this winter" (LCB 97). Wadre meets Grita (LCB 100-104). He has been seeking his band for "months" (LCB 100). Grita prepares to attack (LCB 107-109). Zerika emerges with the Orb (PD 392; LCB 21-22, 109). This is "the thirteenth of the month of Jhegaala in the two hundred and forty-seventh year of the Interregnum" (LCB 109), a "winter's day" (LCB 112). Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." -- Bernard Berenson From casey at trinityhartford.org Fri Aug 8 14:46:04 2003 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 17:46:04 -0400 Subject: [SPOILERS] _The Lord of Castle Black_ In-Reply-To: <3F340015.1090503@comcast.net> Message-ID: Mia wrote: > Did Brust write the Afterward, or was there another hand? I was going to ask just exactly what a Magian was, a typo of Magician perhaps? Then I said to my self, "Oooo. He's good." Then I googled and I found this isn't the first time he's used it. Ah, well. It is still quite worthy. Casey, who is quite happy that the postal service delivered my copy of LoCB in two short days. From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Aug 8 14:45:44 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 16:45:44 -0500 Subject: [SPOILERS] _The Lord of Castle Black_ In-Reply-To: <20030808210611.GA76655@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20030803003459.GA863@infodancer.org> <20030808210611.GA76655@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <20030808214544.GB2500@infodancer.org> On Fri, Aug 08, 2003 at 05:06:11PM -0400, Steve Simmons wrote: > My belated reply, now that I've read the novel and gotten a good nights > sleep. > > On Sat, Aug 02, 2003 at 07:35:00PM -0500, Matthew Hunter wrote: > > > [SPOILERS below] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * The comments of the Gods in _The Paths of the Dead_ regarding > > Phoenixes come to mind, particularly how "two hidden can combine > > to produce one visible". This seems a clear indication of a > > recessive gene. . . > I believe the text of the various novels argues against this. In > at least one case we find someone who's seen to be triple hybrid, > ie, 1/2 one house, 1/4 another, and 1/4 a third. If a single gene > (or single chromosome) determined house,this would be impossible. 'scuse me. A trait governed by the presence of certain genes, some of which are presumably recessive. In other words, what makes someone a genetic Pheonix can be "present but not expressed". Presumably this is linked in some magical fashion to Pheonix overflights, so those with the proper genes expressed get an overflight at their birth. > It also seems very unlikely that Illista and Zerika will breed. :-) They do not have to breed with each other. Breeding with others is sufficient if their descendents retain enough of the Pheonix genes to eventually recombine in a single individual with Pheonix recessives from both parents. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From pulmon at comcast.net Fri Aug 8 17:11:01 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 20:11:01 -0400 Subject: The Lord of Castle Black In-Reply-To: <20030808214544.GB2500@infodancer.org> Message-ID: I take back all (or at least most) of the evil thoughts I have directed at Amazon since so many of you have reported the availability of LoCB. Got mine today, AND via their free mailing! Ken From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Sat Aug 9 16:10:18 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 16:10:18 -0700 Subject: [Spoilers] LoCB Questions In-Reply-To: <200308072156.RAA11510222@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <001601c35cf1$824e7740$e33dfea9@OSUWARI> <200308072156.RAA11510222@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <6ivajvkuu6qbfc3gmlr29hij63mq8kl34c@4ax.com> On Thu, 7 Aug 2003 17:56:29 -0400 (EDT), you wrote: spoiler space snipped, spoiler in the subject should be cover enough.... >> >> I've just finished Castle Black and have some = >> questions/comments/speculation. In no particular order: >> >> What is the difference between a Viscount and a Count/Countess? = >> Shouldn't Zerika have asked Daro for permission to enter the city? > >It may be that Zerika technically ought to have asked Daro for >permission to enter Whitecrest County. But perhaps this was not >practical (if her link to the Orb had not yet been renewed, or if >Zerika didn't know her well enough for pyschic communication). >Or perhaps it *was* done, but was sufficiently uninteresting that >Paarfi omitted it. My theory is that Adrilankha is a Viscounty, or whatever, with Piro in charge, while Whitecrest is a County. So, Zerika asked Piro for permission to enter the city, and Daro for permission to enter the County. > >> Tukko: Who is he? > >Well, Tukko may not actually be a name, but just a colloquialization >of part of his title (which contains the word "Tukknaro"). > >> What is he? > >He's clearly a servant. Yet, as of LoCB, he's clearly also some sort of >advisor to Sethra. He is "bound" in some manner that he prefers not to >discuss. He does not seem to have any direct link to the gods, though >he is capable of discussing their motives intelligently. > Demon? >>How old is he? > >Well, he gets to call Sethra *freaking* Lavode "young one". That sure >made *my* eyebrows shoot up! > >> Does the Dzur in his title = >> (title?) have to do with the house or the mountain? > >I'm betting mountain. > Maybe he's the personification of the mountain, in demon form, or some such. >>What does he do = >> exactly (besides serve klava)? As a minor note, in one book he was = >> called Chaz; we find that Chaz is indeed part of his name/title. > >If Dzur Mountain is the Jenoine equivalent of NORAD HQ, maybe Tukko is >part of (all of?) the "maintenance staff". He could be a creation of >the Jenoine (he refers to them as "Makers"), and "programmed" to carry >out the wishes of the current "owner" of the mountain. I'm betting >that his title translates to something like "Servant of Dzur Mountain" >in some suitably ancient and obscure language. > >> Did Morrolan's main chapel get turned into the ballroom or library? The = >> private rooms seem to suggest it's the ballroom after all. > >Well, M has already changed his mind once, and the castle isn't complete >yet :-) > Didn't the library have multiple side rooms, as well? >> There seems to be a fatal flaw in the plot against Pel: Zerika can = >> question him under the Orb to clear his name.=20 > >If she thinks of it (instead of reacting emotionally immediately). If >Pel consents (risking every plot the Yendi has ever come up with). For >that matter, questioning someone under the Orb might make the whole affair >(pun intended) a matter of public record; something that Zerika might well >be hesitant to do. Or, maybe the plotters are idiots; stranger things have >happened. > They struck me as a bunch of silly harpies, convinced that everyone but them is a "fool", and radically underestimating their opponents. My question is, is there any way possible to speed up time so we don't have to wait for the next volume? -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From mam at theworld.com Sat Aug 9 17:44:43 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 20:44:43 -0400 Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Philip Hart wrote: #On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: # #> ... #> Hours have 60 minutes (FH 256). Hours and minutes are apparently #> identical to their Terran counterparts, and were presumably established by #> the original Terran colonists (see below). # #I see no evidence for equating Dragaeran and Terran minutes and hours. #It seems unlikely to me that they could be equivalent. Of course it's #possible that the ratio of days is exactly 30/24, but 29/24 is as likely, #as is (29.1)/24. But in either of the latter cases, I would anticipate #the minute being changed so that there would be an even number of hours. #As long as the second stayed the same, I don't think the physicists would #care. I think they're about equal. I can't prove it, but my argument is at http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/time.html#clock and quoted below. Brust commented on it to the effect of, IIRC, "congratulations on unraveling the games I play with time and numbers". >>> I think the Dragaeran minute and hour are about the same as ours. First of all, they feel right in terms of the time things take, and I don't think Brust would deliberately confuse us with these terms without a good reason, which I don't see. Note that four meals a day seems standard [TPG205,433,FHYAxxx]. Second, the year seems to be about the same length: Noish-pa is 70, "which is a very impressive age" for an Easterner [Yen206]; and remember that most Easterners in the Empire live in poverty, which shortens lifespan. And the Dragaeran year (see below) has 17*17*30 = 8670 hours, while our Terran year has about 365*24=8760 hours, a difference of just over 1 percent. Brust has Dragaera so carefully and consistently laid out that I wouldn't be surprised if he chose the 30-hour day specifically to make the hours and the 172-day years both come out about equal to ours, so he could use them without confusing his readers. Otherwise, why not use the ubiquitous mystical number and give the day 17 or 34 hours? It's easy for Brust to bring out the difference between the Dragaeran week and ours: just make the Eastern week the same as ours, seven days, and have Vlad remark on it [Yen18]. But the lengths of the day and year are the same on both sides of the mountains, and how would Vlad know about our world at all to express the contrast? -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mam at theworld.com Sat Aug 9 17:47:37 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 20:47:37 -0400 Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Philip Hart wrote: #If I remember my Roman history, they had a 9-hour day, where the hour #changed to accomodate the seasons, and they didn't account for hours at #night, else they would have had 18-hour days. They had I suppose #hour-glasses but relied on clepsydrae or water-clocks at some point. The Serioli made water clocks. (Phx 94, mmp) -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mam at theworld.com Sat Aug 9 17:49:41 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 20:49:41 -0400 Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: #I don't see why "petroleum" would be a mistranslation since it #just means "rock-oil" in Latin. Latin form of a Greek word, but who's counting? -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mam at theworld.com Sat Aug 9 18:17:32 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 21:17:32 -0400 Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, lazarus wrote: #And how the heck do the Orca navigate without stars? By magic. And when they get close enough to Greenaere Isle for the Orb connections to be blocked, the overcast is thinner, and maybe they have compasses, too. The Orca seem to be gadgeteers, on the basis of Kiera's observation in _Orca_ about the mechanical gizmo in whoozis's office (page 165, mmp), and possibly something on p23 of Phoenix. (I'm away >from books right now, just consulting my chart at http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/characteristics.html#table .) -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From pgranzeau at cox.net Sat Aug 9 20:42:27 2003 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 22:42:27 -0500 Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030809224052.01dc8100@pop.east.cox.net> At 19:44 08/09/2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: >Brust has Dragaera so carefully and consistently laid out that I >wouldn't be surprised if he chose the 30-hour day specifically to make >the hours and the 172-day years both come out about equal to ours, so he I take it that "172" is actually 17^2 (17 squared)? >could use them without confusing his readers. Otherwise, why not use the >ubiquitous mystical number and give the day 17 or 34 hours? It's easy >for Brust to bring out the difference between the Dragaeran week and >ours: just make the Eastern week the same as ours, seven days, and have >Vlad remark on it [Yen18]. But the lengths of the day and year are the >same on both sides of the mountains, and how would Vlad know about our >world at all to express the contrast? -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From davids at kithrup.com Sat Aug 9 22:03:38 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 22:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Aug 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > > >#I don't see why "petroleum" would be a mistranslation since it >#just means "rock-oil" in Latin. > >Latin form of a Greek word, but who's counting? > Not that I'm trying to out-pedant anyone, but: "Petra" is Greek, but "oleum" is purely Latin (or so sayeth the OED). So it's a Latin combined word containing a Greek root & a Latin one. Quod erat demonstratum, res ipsum loquitur, et quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur. From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Sun Aug 10 11:31:53 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:31:53 -0700 Subject: [Spoilers] LoCB Questions In-Reply-To: <001601c35cf1$824e7740$e33dfea9@OSUWARI> References: <001601c35cf1$824e7740$e33dfea9@OSUWARI> Message-ID: I think I have may have figured something out. The "plan" to take care of Khaavren involves Piro, I'll bet. And did anyone notice that Piro and Ibronka seemed to fall in love rather quickly and suddenly? Almost as if someone had cast a spell on them? -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From matthew at infodancer.org Sun Aug 10 12:32:56 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 14:32:56 -0500 Subject: [Spoilers] LoCB Questions In-Reply-To: References: <001601c35cf1$824e7740$e33dfea9@OSUWARI> Message-ID: <20030810193256.GE13129@infodancer.org> On Sun, Aug 10, 2003 at 11:31:53AM -0700, lazarus wrote: > I think I have may have figured something out. > > > > > > > The "plan" to take care of Khaavren involves Piro, I'll bet. And did > anyone notice that Piro and Ibronka seemed to fall in love rather > quickly and suddenly? Almost as if someone had cast a spell on them? No more quickly than Khaavren and Daro. But then, you may be right even so; it would be a good way to attack Khaavren. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From davids at kithrup.com Sun Aug 10 15:36:01 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:36:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > >Quod erat demonstratum, res ipsum loquitur, et quidquid latine dictum >sit altum viditur. > Pre-emptive correction: "res ipsA loquitur". Bloody dative vocative gerunding nominatives. "Neque porro quisquam est, qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit, sed quia non numquam eius modi tempora incidunt ut labore et dolore magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem." -- Marcus Tullius Cicero, /De Finibus, Bonorum et Malorum/ From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Aug 10 15:50:40 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:50:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Sat, 9 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > "Neque porro quisquam est, qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, > consectetur, adipisci velit, sed quia non numquam eius modi > tempora incidunt ut labore et dolore magnam aliquam quaerat > voluptatem." > -- Marcus Tullius Cicero, /De Finibus, Bonorum et Malorum/ Does Marx somewhere quote Goethe referring to this, to the effect of Should this torture then torment us Since it gives us greater pleasure? Were not through the rule of Timur Souls devoured without measure? which might be considered Morrolanian or is the relevancy to the list that the quote is directly Aerichian? From davids at kithrup.com Sun Aug 10 17:55:52 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 17:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Petroleum Refining In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: >On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > >>On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: >> >> >>> sciences either. They at least have *some* chemistry (petroleum >>> refining), but we don't know how recent a development that is. >> >>I think "petroleum" is a mistranslation. > >I don't see why "petroleum" would be a mistranslation since it >just means "rock-oil" in Latin. > >Also, it turns out that the process of petroleum refining goes back >several centuries (in our universe, I mean); I think I read somewhere >that the alchemists of the Muslim Golden Age figured it out. At any >rate, it requires a lower tech level than one might think. Huge >refineries for large-scale gasoline production are a modern invention, >of course. > By the way, I found my source for my above contention, which is "Guns, Germs and Steel", by Jared Diamond, which is a fascinating book, and I recommend to everyone here. It might at some point be interesting to analyze Dragaera according to Diamond's notions of how societies develop. At any rate, this is page 247 from the trade PB edition of that work: A good illustration of the histories of trial and error involved is furnished by the development of gunpowder and gasoline from raw materials. Combustible natural products inevitably make themselves noticed, as when a resinous log explodes in a campfire. By 2000 B.C., Mesopotamians were extracting tons of petroleum by heating rock asphalt. Ancient Greeks discovered the uses of various mixtures of petroleum, pitch, resins, sulfur, and quicklime as incendiary weapons, delivered by catapults, arrows, firebombs, and ships. The expertise at distillation that medieval Islamic alchemists developed to produce alcohols and perfumes also let them distill petroleum into fractions, some of which proved to be even more powerful incendiaries. Delivered in grenades, rockets, and torpedoes, those incendiaries played a key role in Islam's eventual defeat of the Crusaders. By then, the Chinese had observed that a particular mixture of sulfur, charcoal, and saltpeter, which became known as gunpowder, was especially explosive. An Islamic chemical treatise of about A.D. 1100 describes seven gunpowder recipes, while a treatise from A.D. 1280 gives more than 70 recipes that had proved suitable for diverse purposes (one for rockets, another for cannons). As for postmedieval petroleum distillation, 19th-century chemists found the middle distillate fraction useful as fuel for oil lamps. The chemists discarded the most volatile fraction (gasoline) as an unfortunate waste product -- until it was found to be an ideal fuel for internal-combustion engines. Who today remembers that gasoline, the fuel of modern civilization, originated as yet another invention in search of a use? From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Aug 10 18:14:10 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 18:14:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Petroleum Refining In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > > >On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > >>I think "petroleum" is a mistranslation. > By the way, I found my source for my above contention, which is "Guns, > Germs and Steel", by Jared Diamond, which is a fascinating book, and > I recommend to everyone here. It might at some point be interesting > to analyze Dragaera according to Diamond's notions of how societies > develop. I withdraw my objection to petroleum, except insofar as it relates to my general snark about the lack of tech in Drageara. I enthusiastically second GGS, especially as it has a somewhat Paarfian way of not honing down its arguments. I assert that the Empire is too determined by the Cycle to reflect Diamondian reasoning. However, the survival of the islands as independent entities seems more reasonable to me in that light. More reasonable than not at all, anyway. From ehahn at isochronism.com Sun Aug 10 18:28:00 2003 From: ehahn at isochronism.com (Edward Hahn) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 21:28:00 -0400 Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ Message-ID: <0B4DC810-CB9B-11D7-B10D-000393962F9C@isochronism.com> Regarding the hours in a day...on earth. Hours were invented by the ancient Egyptians, possibly with influence of the Babylonians. There were 12 hours of day in every ancient Egyptian day, and 12 hours of night. Naturally, the length of the hours changed every day, with the seasons. When picked up by the Europeans in the Middle Ages, the "hours" were kept track of by the local church in similar fashion...for prayer services. Prayer services happened everyday at the same time relative to sunrise/sunset. It's only when clocks were invented that hours were "sundered" from dawn and dusk, and instead made into equal time intervals -> largely because the level of engineering associated with watchmaking could only accomplish so much (at first). Read more about it here: http://www.timezone.com/article.aspx?id=tmachine&articleId=tmachine0004 ed -- Ed Hahn / ehahn at isochronism.com "It don't mean a thing if it ain't got an even swing!" From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Sun Aug 10 18:36:13 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 21:36:13 -0400 Subject: Vlad vs Paarfi, round 2 Message-ID: <20030811013613.GA50075@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> So today I'm having brunch with a fellow Brust fan who's not on the list, and I tell him about my idea for 'Tiassa' as an alternating chapter in Vlad and Paarfis voice, with the Paarfi chapters from the point of view of Khaavren or the Countess or Piro, and the Vlad chapters >from Vlad. We agree that trying to do a full-Roshomon overlap probably wouldn't cut it, but maybe just a few lines of overlap could do the job. Consider this chapter-ender from Paarfi and the chapter starter from Vlad, which overlap the last few lines of dialog. [ Khaavren and Vlad are outnumbered 4 to 2 by guards, but Vlad has claimed there should be no problem fighting their way out. ] As we advanced, swords at ready against our quartet of foes, I considered my companions performance in our last few heated engagements and decided that his brash confidence was, in this case, probably justified. Just then the outer door exploded into the room, followed almost immediately by an additional thirty to fourty armed Jhereg, all in a clearly excited state at the presence of my reluctant compatriot, and all plainly ready to commit their arms on the side of our foes. Vlad apprended their appearance immediately, and remarked sotto voice: "It would appear, good Tiassa, that my optimism of a few moments ago might have been somewhat premature, if not entirely overstated." "Nearly. I yield, Lord Taltos, to your experience in these matters, which does indeed to be both extensive and detailed." "Well, now we're fucked." "No shit, Sherlock." Steve -- "I don't like being quoted." -- anonymous From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 07:44:41 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:44:41 +0000 Subject: LOCB available in UK? Message-ID: While I'm in Scotland I've tried to find it and I couldn't. I will have to wait and ask in the specialized bookshop where I use to buy them in Barcelona (Gigamesh for anybody near there, they are quite expensive but you can found almost everything there. >From: "Mark Tiller" >To: >Subject: LOCB available in UK? >Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 21:31:40 +0100 > >I tried to get my local bookshop to order in a copy of LOCB, their computer >said it was being released 'til September 19th..... Has anybody gotten a >copy in the UK other than by mail order from the US? > >Any info greatly received. > >Thanks > > >Mark > > _________________________________________________________________ Descubre el mayor cat?logo de coches de la Red en MSN Motor. http://motor.msn.es/researchcentre/ From greyw01f at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 13:56:33 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:56:33 +0000 Subject: (spoilers) A few questions for Steve Message-ID: Hey all... I was reading _PotD_ and came across a couple items of interest that left me in a bit of a state of uncertainty. First, there was the matter of assorted references to "Eleventh Vallista reign" "fifteenth Tsalmoth reign" "fifteenth Chreotha reign" etc... I thought that the Cycle has only gone through one complete revolution, ending with Tortaalik and being reborn into Zerika. Even if Tortaalik was the end of the second Cycle, I'm still at a loss to explain numbers that are in the teens.... It also says during the brief history of the Sorceress in Green that she did some fairly impressive stuff back in other Reigns--and while she *is* called the "oldest living" something or other, putting her all the way back into other reigns REALLY makes her old... This next question is just a simple matter of curiosity: Why did you, Steve, choose to not have Morrolan accompany Zerika to Deathsgate? It would have been so easy to write them in, especially having had them pass so close to each other, that excluding him, especially after Morrolan's comments in _Taltos_ seems peculiar. My next question is to the list, as well as Steve. Can a person become impregnated in the Paths of the Dead? Because I was thinking about how two hidden can create one in the open, and I was thinking, wouldn't it be symbolic if in going down into the paths of the dead, the Phoenix is thus reborn by some dead Phonixes' seed? *shrugs* Just a few thoughts that accompanied my reading of the book. Jon _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From nadilday at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 14:31:30 2003 From: nadilday at yahoo.com (Nathan Dilday) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:31:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: (spoilers) A few questions for Steve In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030811213130.94643.qmail@web12707.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jon Carey wrote: > > Hey all... > I was reading _PotD_ and came across a couple items > of interest that left me > in a bit of a state of uncertainty. First, there > was the matter of assorted > references to "Eleventh Vallista reign" "fifteenth > Tsalmoth reign" > "fifteenth Chreotha reign" etc... > > I thought that the Cycle has only gone through one > complete revolution, > ending with Tortaalik and being reborn into Zerika. > Even if Tortaalik was > the end of the second Cycle, I'm still at a loss to > explain numbers that are > in the teens.... The cycle has gone through one... "great revolution", is it called? Anyhow, it means that the cycle has been completed 17 times. (which I believes means Pawrfi is writing during the 18th Dragon reign.) I think. Be Seeing You, Nathan __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From alexx at TheWorld.com Mon Aug 11 14:47:56 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:47:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: (spoilers) A few questions for Steve In-Reply-To: from "Jon Carey" at Aug 11, 2003 08:56:33 PM Message-ID: <200308112147.RAA11797510@shell.TheWorld.com> > > Hey all... > I was reading _PotD_ and came across a couple items of interest that left me > in a bit of a state of uncertainty. First, there was the matter of assorted > references to "Eleventh Vallista reign" "fifteenth Tsalmoth reign" > "fifteenth Chreotha reign" etc... > > I thought that the Cycle has only gone through one complete revolution, > ending with Tortaalik and being reborn into Zerika. Even if Tortaalik was > the end of the second Cycle, I'm still at a loss to explain numbers that are > in the teens.... Not quite. There has been only one complete *Great* Cycle (that is, a period of 17 Cycles), ending with Tortaalik. One might have argued, pre-Interregnum, that Tortaalik's reign actually marked the beginning of the Second Great Cycle. > It also says during the brief history of the Sorceress in Green that she did > some fairly impressive stuff back in other Reigns--and while she *is* called > the "oldest living" something or other, putting her all the way back into > other reigns REALLY makes her old... Yes indeed. My estimates place the ealiest mention of her at about 33,000 years before the Interregnum. Note that Sethra Lavode *was* alive for much longer than that, at least 200,000 years, possibly more. But she died and became undead before any of the books we have currently (though not that *long* before, relatively speaking). > This next question is just a simple matter of curiosity: Why did you, > Steve, choose to not have Morrolan accompany Zerika to Deathsgate? It would > have been so easy to write them in, especially having had them pass so close > to each other, that excluding him, especially after Morrolan's comments in > _Taltos_ seems peculiar. Theory 1) To bug me. Theory 2) Because he has a cool plan to resolve the apparent contradiction, which will be revealed in the final volume of Viscount. Note that these theories are not mutually exclusive... Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "That is one of the Laws of Usenet, up there with 'You can tell when a Usenet discussion is getting old when someone drags out Hitler and the Nazis.'" -- David Goldfarb From alexx at TheWorld.com Mon Aug 11 14:52:50 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:52:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: (spoilers) A few questions for Steve In-Reply-To: <20030811213130.94643.qmail@web12707.mail.yahoo.com> from "Nathan Dilday" at Aug 11, 2003 02:31:30 PM Message-ID: <200308112152.RAA11831632@shell.TheWorld.com> > The cycle has gone through one... "great > revolution", is it called? Anyhow, it means that the > cycle has been completed 17 times. (which I believes > means Pawrfi is writing during the 18th Dragon reign.) > I think. This is technically correct, but formal references to the date would call it, not the 18th Dragon Reign, but the 1st Dragon Reign of the Second Great Cycle. To be ultra-formal (i.e. Paarfi-esque), he is writing in "Great Cycle of the Dragon, Cycle of the Phoenix, Reign of the Dragon," etc. (_FHYA_, page 17). Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx THE PESSIMIST'S GUIDE TO ENGINEER-TALK: What They Say: "That's interesting." What They Mean: "Shit! I've never seen anything remotely like that before." [Off of rec.humor.funny] From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Aug 11 15:12:08 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:12:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: (spoilers) A few questions for Steve Message-ID: <200308112212.h7BMC5I27922@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Alexx, in response to Jon's post, said: > Yes indeed. My estimates place the ealiest mention of her at about > 33,000 years before the Interregnum. > > Note that Sethra Lavode *was* alive for much longer than that, at > least 200,000 years, possibly more. But she died and became undead > before any of the books we have currently (though not that *long* > before, relatively speaking). We can assume that Dzur Mountain has something to do with Sethra's longevity, but what about the SiG? Any ideas or hints we've been given? Now I'm just curious.... > > This next question is just a simple matter of curiosity: Why did you, > > Steve, choose to not have Morrolan accompany Zerika to Deathsgate? It would > > have been so easy to write them in, especially having had them pass so close > > to each other, that excluding him, especially after Morrolan's comments in > > _Taltos_ seems peculiar. > > Theory 1) To bug me. > > Theory 2) Because he has a cool plan to resolve the apparent contradiction, > which will be revealed in the final volume of Viscount. The other theory of course being that Morollan either lied or bent the truth to a near-unbelievable angle when he told Vlad he was there. I suspect we'll be told in the future, or that Steve is being his usual, helpful self in revealing facts which contradict previous assertions. I think he receives perverse pleasure in throwing these tidbits at us, which only makes me like him more.... Chris "So farewell hope, and with hope, farewell fear, Farewell remorse! All good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my Good" - John Milton - 'Paradise Lost' From Gaertk at aol.com Mon Aug 11 15:16:27 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:16:27 -0400 Subject: A Mighty Thundering of LoCB Comments (No SPOILERS) Message-ID: <564352BD.4079E59A.00048EA6@aol.com> Well, not really, but I couldn't resist using that phrase. This was good, faster paced and more fun than POTD. I do have to disagree with whoever complained about the choice of stopping point: this was not at all a cliffhanger (no one is in immediate danger), and (unlike POTD) we know where everyone is at that time and more or less what they're doing. It seemed to me that Brust was being anti-sensational; he handled many of the plot points in a remarkably mundane manner: Pel's conflict of interest, Blackwand, the second Phoenix, the Devera appaerances, and several events involving Zerika. As for the question of marble, I believe Vlad mentions somewhere the white marble inside of Castle Black. For anyone surprised by the actions of certain people at the end of LOCB, all I can say is that you were warned. Specifically, on the first page of chapter 18. (And those of you discussing the Orb/Cycle/Emporer/phoenix would find the rest of that chapter enlightening as well.) Some criticisms: my copy wasn't glued cleanly, and there were of course some typoes (sorry, I didn't note where). I did however note a couple places where the dialogue gets somewhat confused, if not outright misattributed: pages 81 and 336. --KG From usagigoya at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 15:32:16 2003 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:32:16 +0000 Subject: A Mighty Thundering of LoCB Comments (No SPOILERS) Message-ID: >From: Gaertk at aol.com on Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:16:27 -0400 > >Some criticisms: my copy wasn't glued cleanly, and there >were of course some typos (sorry, I didn't note where). I >did however note a couple places where the dialogue gets >somewhat confused, if not outright misattributed: pages 81 >and 336. > 1) My copy had the glue/binding problem as well... unnoticeable, except when reading... 2) The typos were a LOT less frequent or pronounced as PotD (and other Tor publications). 3) Yeah, a previously exiled Phoenix was credited for a comment made by a Dragonlord when those two met up with Grita/Orlaan. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From dr.elmo at whiterose.org Mon Aug 11 15:46:50 2003 From: dr.elmo at whiterose.org (Greg Morrow) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:46:50 -0500 Subject: (spoilers) A few questions for Steve In-Reply-To: <200308112212.h7BMC5I27922@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030811173801.02448080@mail.whiterose.org> Chris Olson - SunPS wondered aloud: >We can assume that Dzur Mountain has something to do with >Sethra's longevity, but what about the SiG? Any ideas or hints >we've been given? Now I'm just curious.... It's pretty common in fantasy for wizards to live much longer than non-wizards. When the non-wizard base lifespan is 2,000 years, as in the case of Dragaeran elves, "much longer" can be tens of thousands of years, I suppose. Note similarly the extended lives of Arra and Noish-Pa. Alternately, people who hang out with Sethra Lavode acquire her habit of living an unusually long life. Bodes well for Vlad, who's got both witchcraft and the Sethra Lavode Effect to keep him tottering along perhaps as much as a tenth of a Dragaeran lifetime. From nadilday at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 16:03:36 2003 From: nadilday at yahoo.com (Nathan Dilday) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:03:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A Mighty Thundering of LoCB Comments (No SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030811230336.905.qmail@web12708.mail.yahoo.com> --- Steve Hubbell wrote: > > > > >From: Gaertk at aol.com on Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:16:27 > -0400 > > > >Some criticisms: my copy wasn't glued cleanly, and > there > >were of course some typos (sorry, I didn't note > where). I > >did however note a couple places where the dialogue > gets > >somewhat confused, if not outright misattributed: > pages 81 > >and 336. > > > 1) My copy had the glue/binding problem as well... > unnoticeable, except when > reading... Oh, good, I feel somewhat better knowing I'm not the only one with a shoddy copy. Be Seeing You, Nathan __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Aug 11 16:30:48 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: (spoilers) A few questions for Steve Message-ID: <200308112330.h7BNUjI09350@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Greg stated: > It's pretty common in fantasy for wizards to live much longer than > non-wizards. When the non-wizard base lifespan is 2,000 years, as in the > case of Dragaeran elves, "much longer" can be tens of thousands of years, I > suppose. Note similarly the extended lives of Arra and Noish-Pa. > > Alternately, people who hang out with Sethra Lavode acquire her habit of > living an unusually long life. Bodes well for Vlad, who's got both > witchcraft and the Sethra Lavode Effect to keep him tottering along perhaps > as much as a tenth of a Dragaeran lifetime. Well, yes. However, Dragaera is filled with sorcerors and not a small number of wizards, whereas Arra's long lifespan is directly attributed to her relationship with Verra, and Noish-Pa and Vlad's last name *is* Taltos, so I'd assume a little Magic Finger-Waggling in regard to their futures. But is it the case that most, if not all, wizards (as opposed to sorcerors) are longer-lived than other Dragaerans? Or is it a branch of sorcery, similar to Necromancy, that allow certain wizards to extend their lifespans beyond that of mortal Dragaerans? As for the Sethra Lavode equation, I suspect the majority of people who have had dealings with Sethra do not, in fact, lead very long lives. The number of Dzur Heroes alone who've been in her presence long enough for a "I come to battle the famed Enchan..." have probably been legion. Though it is an interesting theory: if one hangs around her long enough, their lives are lengthened. However, if we assume that Sethra's long life is due in no small part to her relationship with Dzur Mountain, we would need to assume that part of the Mountain siphons off to those she surrounds herself with. Which, I think, is a rather frightening thought. Chris (Who's in a mood for discussion on magical theory in the Dragaeran world) From pgranzeau at cox.net Mon Aug 11 16:10:33 2003 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:10:33 -0500 Subject: (spoilers) A few questions for Steve In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030811180832.01dc3c50@pop.east.cox.net> At 15:56 08/11/2003, Jon Carey wrote: >Hey all... >I was reading _PotD_ and came across a couple items of interest that left >me in a bit of a state of uncertainty. First, there was the matter of >assorted references to "Eleventh Vallista reign" "fifteenth Tsalmoth >reign" "fifteenth Chreotha reign" etc... > >I thought that the Cycle has only gone through one complete revolution, >ending with Tortaalik and being reborn into Zerika. Even if Tortaalik was >the end of the second Cycle, I'm still at a loss to explain numbers that >are in the teens.... There seems to be a Great Cycle (Cycle of Cycles). The Interregnum seems to have ended one Great Cycle, as Paarfi submitted LoCB in "...the Reign of the Dragon in the Cycle of the Phoenix in the Great Cycle of the Dragon". It is now the Great Cycle of the Dragon (the second Great Cycle). -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From Gaertk at aol.com Mon Aug 11 17:24:34 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:24:34 -0400 Subject: (spoilers removed) A few questions for Steve Message-ID: <4400DC3B.58663109.00048EA6@aol.com> "Peter H. Granzeau" writes: > There seems to be a Great Cycle (Cycle of Cycles). ?The > Interregnum seems to have ended one Great Cycle, Nitpick: the Great Cycle of the Dragon actually began with Tortaalik's reign, as shown by the title page of FHYA. --KG From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Mon Aug 11 17:28:47 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:28:47 -0700 Subject: A Mighty Thundering of LoCB Comments (No SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <20030811230336.905.qmail@web12708.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030811230336.905.qmail@web12708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:03:36 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: > >--- Steve Hubbell wrote: >> >> >> >> >From: Gaertk at aol.com on Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:16:27 >> -0400 >> > >> >Some criticisms: my copy wasn't glued cleanly, and >> there >> >were of course some typos (sorry, I didn't note >> where). I >> >did however note a couple places where the dialogue >> gets >> >somewhat confused, if not outright misattributed: >> pages 81 >> >and 336. >> > >> 1) My copy had the glue/binding problem as well... >> unnoticeable, except when >> reading... > > Oh, good, I feel somewhat better knowing I'm not the >only one with a shoddy copy. > Make that three. But it wasn't too bad. I've gotten much worse. At least the binding is staying on. And the content more than makes up for it. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From dr.elmo at whiterose.org Tue Aug 12 07:50:57 2003 From: dr.elmo at whiterose.org (Greg Morrow) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:50:57 -0500 Subject: (spoilers) A few questions for Steve In-Reply-To: <200308112330.h7BNUjI09350@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030812094258.021e0b60@mail.whiterose.org> Chris Olson - SunPS wondered aloud to the group: >But is it the case that most, if not all, wizards (as opposed to sorcerors) >are longer-lived than other Dragaerans? I think it is. Baritt and the SiG for sure. We don't know how old Loraan or Sethra the Younger are. All of the other big-time sorcerors and wizards we know of are young, or at least still within the normal limits of a Dragaeran lifetime. Except Sethra Lavode, who's probably a special case, who probably derives her long life from Dzur Mountain and not from being a wizard. However, complicating the analysis, we don't know for sure that Dragaerans die of old age. We know they get old, but I think we haven't seen any die of it, and certainly not any wizards. Perhaps the elves are more Tolkienesque than just in their height? -- "It is the ferment of ideas, the clash of disagreeing judgments, the privilege of the individual to develop his own thought and shape his own character which makes progress possible."--Calvin Coolidge, 1925 mailto:Dr.Elmo at whiterose.org http://www.whiterose.org/dr.elmo/blog/ From rick at 404.978.org Tue Aug 12 08:17:38 2003 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:17:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Physical book defects and such (No SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: References: <20030811230336.905.qmail@web12708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1391.192.168.1.1.1060701458.squirrel@404.978.org> lazarus said: > On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:03:36 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >>--- Steve Hubbell wrote: >>> >From: Gaertk at aol.com on Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:16:27 -0400 >>> > >>> >Some criticisms: my copy wasn't glued cleanly, and there >>> >were of course some typos (sorry, I didn't note where). I >>> >did however note a couple places where the dialogue gets >>> >somewhat confused, if not outright misattributed: pages 81 >>> >and 336. >>> > >>> 1) My copy had the glue/binding problem as well... >>> unnoticeable, except when >>> reading... >> >> Oh, good, I feel somewhat better knowing I'm not the >>only one with a shoddy copy. >> > > Make that three. But it wasn't too bad. I've gotten much worse. At > least the binding is staying on. > > And the content more than makes up for it. My question, albeit a petty one: Why in Verra's name is the fabric cover of the book BABY BLUE? Why not a tasteful dark color like the others? I am always sure to wash and completely dry my hands before reading, as I take off the dust cover while reading to preserve it better, but with humidity, etc, it's nigh impossible to keep the light blue fabric cover clean from marks. Yes, it's silly, but it's also incongruent with the other books. Why baby blue? -Rick From warlord at dragon.com Tue Aug 12 09:12:36 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:12:36 -0400 Subject: Physical book defects and such (No SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <1391.192.168.1.1.1060701458.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Castello [mailto:rick at 404.978.org] > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 11:18 AM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Physical book defects and such (No SPOILERS) > > > lazarus said: > > On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:03:36 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: > >>--- Steve Hubbell wrote: > >>> >From: Gaertk at aol.com on Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:16:27 -0400 > >>> > > >>> >Some criticisms: my copy wasn't glued cleanly, and there > >>> >were of course some typos (sorry, I didn't note where). I > >>> >did however note a couple places where the dialogue gets > >>> >somewhat confused, if not outright misattributed: pages 81 > >>> >and 336. > >>> > > >>> 1) My copy had the glue/binding problem as well... > >>> unnoticeable, except when > >>> reading... > >> > >> Oh, good, I feel somewhat better knowing I'm not the > >>only one with a shoddy copy. > >> > > > > Make that three. But it wasn't too bad. I've gotten much worse. At > > least the binding is staying on. > > > > And the content more than makes up for it. > > My question, albeit a petty one: > > Why in Verra's name is the fabric cover of the book BABY BLUE? > > Why not a tasteful dark color like the others? I am always > sure to wash and completely dry my hands before reading, as > I take off the dust cover while reading to preserve it better, > but with humidity, etc, it's nigh impossible to keep the light > blue fabric cover clean from marks. > > Yes, it's silly, but it's also incongruent with the other books. > Why baby blue? > > -Rick That and the fact that Steven got Fabio to pose for the cover. W From nadilday at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 09:20:47 2003 From: nadilday at yahoo.com (Nathan Dilday) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Physical book defects and such (No SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030812162047.38461.qmail@web12703.mail.yahoo.com> --- Warlord wrote: > > > That and the fact that Steven got Fabio to pose for > the cover. > > W > To be fair, I'd be willing to bet my next several paychecks that Mr. Brust had relatively little to do with the dust cover art. If he's lucky, he got veto rights. Be Seeing You, Nathan __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From alexx at TheWorld.com Tue Aug 12 09:22:42 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:22:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Physical book defects and such (No SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: from "Warlord" at Aug 12, 2003 12:12:36 PM Message-ID: <200308121622.MAA11806801@shell.TheWorld.com> > That and the fact that Steven got Fabio to pose for the cover. Don't blame the author for what the cover artist did. Authors almost never have any input into this process, and are quite often appalled at the results. Also, remember that the job of a book cover is *not* to accurately represent anything about the contents; it's job is to help sell the book. [Not that I have any particular complaints about this individual cover myself; this is just a recurring argument.] Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own." "Is it?" -- The Prisoner From warlord at dragon.com Tue Aug 12 09:30:26 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:30:26 -0400 Subject: Physical book defects and such (No SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <20030812162047.38461.qmail@web12703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Nathan Dilday [mailto:nadilday at yahoo.com] > Subject: RE: Physical book defects and such (No SPOILERS) > > --- Warlord wrote: > > > > > > That and the fact that Steven got Fabio to pose for > > the cover. > > > > W > > > To be fair, I'd be willing to bet my next several > paychecks that Mr. Brust had relatively little to do > with the dust cover art. If he's lucky, he got veto > rights. This stuff comes out with a straight face, but rest assured that I *was* using satire. > > > Be Seeing You, Captain! Deploy sentries immediately! > > Nathan > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? None of your bloody business, and besides, she didn't seem to mind. W "Do not mess in the affairs of Dragaeans, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup." From simbelmyne at softhome.net Tue Aug 12 09:33:22 2003 From: simbelmyne at softhome.net (emily frawley) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:33:22 -0400 Subject: Physical book defects and such (No SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <1391.192.168.1.1.1060701458.squirrel@404.978.org> References: <20030811230336.905.qmail@web12708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20030812123322.007f5d60@mail.softhome.net> At 11:17 AM 8/12/03 -0400, Rick Castello wrote: >lazarus said: >> On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:03:36 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >>>--- Steve Hubbell wrote: >>>> >From: Gaertk at aol.com on Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:16:27 -0400 >>>> > >>>> 1) My copy had the glue/binding problem as well... >>>> unnoticeable, except when >>>> reading... >>> Oh, good, I feel somewhat better knowing I'm not the >>>only one with a shoddy copy. >> Make that three. But it wasn't too bad. I've gotten much worse. At >> least the binding is staying on. >> Actually, four. The copy I borrowed from work was in pretty sad conditions, as were the other two unbought copies that I looked at. My guess would be that its a gluing problem, since the pages seemed uneven in where they attached to the spine. >> And the content more than makes up for it. > But yes, this is indeed true. > My question, albeit a petty one: > Why in Verra's name is the fabric cover of the book BABY BLUE? > Indeed. The book is entitled Lord of Castle _Black_. Why not a nice tastful black cover to match the title? I much preferred the binding styles and jobs on PG and FYA. Emily From bio_phy at hotmail.com Tue Aug 12 09:38:20 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:38:20 -0500 Subject: Physical book defects and such (No SPOILERS) Message-ID: Speaking of Stephen Hickman, he has a killer image of a jhereg there when you hit his page, one that I haven't seen before: http://www.stephenhickman.com/index1.html johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com forum: http://forum.instagiber.com/index.php?h=1&pf=268 stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ >That and the fact that Steven got Fabio to pose for the cover. > >W _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From bio_phy at hotmail.com Tue Aug 12 09:41:03 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:41:03 -0500 Subject: Physical book defects and such (No SPOILERS) Message-ID: Hm, I appear to be missing the e-mail I sent just before this. At any rate, I had mentioned that I prefer the Stephen Hickman cover art because it captures the essence of the dragaeran beasts and Easterners, which led me to his site. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com forum: http://forum.instagiber.com/index.php?h=1&pf=268 stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ >Speaking of Stephen Hickman, he has a killer image of a jhereg there when >you hit his page, one that I haven't seen before: > >http://www.stephenhickman.com/index1.html > >johne (phy) cook >wisconsin, usa > >blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com >forum: http://forum.instagiber.com/index.php?h=1&pf=268 >stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From bio_phy at hotmail.com Tue Aug 12 09:30:55 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:30:55 -0500 Subject: Physical book defects and such (No SPOILERS) Message-ID: I wish they were all done by Stephen Hickman. He captured the essence of the beasts and the Easterners very well. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com forum: http://forum.instagiber.com/index.php?h=1&pf=268 stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ >From: Alexx S Kay >To: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) >CC: dragaera at dragaera.info (Dragaera Mailing List) >Subject: Re: Physical book defects and such (No SPOILERS) >Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:22:42 -0400 (EDT) > > > > That and the fact that Steven got Fabio to pose for the cover. > >Don't blame the author for what the cover artist did. Authors >almost never have any input into this process, and are quite often >appalled at the results. Also, remember that the job of a book >cover is *not* to accurately represent anything about the contents; >it's job is to help sell the book. > >[Not that I have any particular complaints about this individual >cover myself; this is just a recurring argument.] > >Alexx _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Aug 12 09:42:21 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:42:21 -0500 Subject: Physical book defects and such (No SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <200308121622.MAA11806801@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <200308121622.MAA11806801@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <20030812164220.GA10564@infodancer.org> On Tue, Aug 12, 2003 at 12:22:42PM -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > That and the fact that Steven got Fabio to pose for the cover. > Don't blame the author for what the cover artist did. Authors > almost never have any input into this process, and are quite often > appalled at the results. Agreed. > Also, remember that the job of a book > cover is *not* to accurately represent anything about the contents; > it's job is to help sell the book. Ah, but what few realize is that GOOD ART will help sell the book a lot better than bad art. The downside is that good art takes a long time. For instance, I doubt anyone would dispute that the cover art of Michael Whelan is far-and-away the best stuff out there. But if you want him to do your book cover, you send him the book (when YOU are done with it, mind) and he'll get back to you in a year or so. At least, so I've heard. > [Not that I have any particular complaints about this individual > cover myself; this is just a recurring argument.] There are a lot of worse covers than LoCB. I could argue with the quality of the cover art a bit in technical terms (it's too obviously a painting, for example -- this would have been amusing if Steve had put a "Morrolan gets his portrait painted" scene in the book), but in terms of what it's portraying, I have no complaints. It's the classic Conan/Elric pose, and that's exactly the type of character that Morrolan is supposed to represent. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From davids at kithrup.com Tue Aug 12 11:12:17 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:12:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Physical book defects and such (No SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Aug 2003, Johne Cook wrote: >Speaking of Stephen Hickman, he has a killer image of a jhereg there >when you hit his page, one that I haven't seen before: > >http://www.stephenhickman.com/index1.html > Uh. That's the cover of /Dragon/. Although I admit that Hickman's webpage image looks a little different - the golden sun-disk behind the jhereg is absent, and of course the title is missing. And the colors look softer and more natural. I think it's a better image than what's on /Dragon/, but it is essentially the same image. From Randi128 at aol.com Tue Aug 12 12:47:03 2003 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:47:03 EDT Subject: A Mighty Thundering of LoCB Comments (No SPOILERS) Message-ID: <29.45fa9abc.2c6a9e37@aol.com> >> >1) My copy had the glue/binding problem as well.. >> unnoticeable, except when >> >reading... >>> Oh, good, I feel somewhat better knowing I'm not the>only one with a shoddy copy. >>Make that three. But it wasn't too bad. I've gotten much worse. Atleast the binding is staying on. >And the content more than makes up for it. My copy is the same. And I also have gotten books in worse condition. I had assumed that I was the only one with a bad binding job. Now I know better. PS: I am only about halfway done, and I am enjoying the book thoroughly. Steve is an excellent story teller, with a twisted imagination. John D. Barbato OD From bio_phy at hotmail.com Tue Aug 12 13:57:38 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:57:38 -0500 Subject: A Mighty Thundering of LoCB Comments (No SPOILERS) Message-ID: I am an unabashed Brust fan. I'd read his treatment of grocery store labels if it came to that. He is my favorite author (even over Zelazny, for reasons that still baffle me, as he was from Minnesota). I have sent two or three e-mails over the years (trying not to wear out my welcome) and he has always courteously and promptly replied, which only deepened my respect and admiration-from-a-distance. With that said, I had a hard time getting into PotD and found LoCB to be tough sledding until maybe 100 pages in. It's taking off now, but I'm not getting the glee of writing Paarfi that I got from PG and FHYA, the simple love of playing with Paafi's particular cadence that positively glowed from the first two works. With that said, I read "It is returned, or I am a norska" over lunch, and I'm still grinning like an idiot. Of course, I am from Wisconsin, and that explains itself right there. johne (phy) cook breezeway, wisconsin, usa blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com forum: http://forum.instagiber.com/index.php?h=1&pf=268 stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ >From: Randi128 at aol.com >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: A Mighty Thundering of LoCB Comments (No SPOILERS) >Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:47:03 EDT > > >> >1) My copy had the glue/binding problem as well.. > >> unnoticeable, except when > >> >reading... > >>> Oh, good, I feel somewhat better knowing I'm not the>only one with a >shoddy copy. > >>Make that three. But it wasn't too bad. I've gotten much worse. >Atleast >the binding is staying on. > >And the content more than makes up for it. > >My copy is the same. And I also have gotten books in worse condition. I had >assumed that I was the only one with a bad binding job. Now I know better. > >PS: I am only about halfway done, and I am enjoying the book thoroughly. >Steve is an excellent story teller, with a twisted imagination. > >John D. Barbato OD > _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From greyw01f at hotmail.com Tue Aug 12 13:58:55 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:58:55 +0000 Subject: (spoilers) A few questions for Steve Message-ID: >However, if we assume that >Sethra's long life is due in no small part to her relationship with >Dzur Mountain, we would need to assume that part of the Mountain siphons >off to those she surrounds herself with. Which, I think, is a >rather frightening thought. come to think of it, what *is* the nature of Sethra's vampirism? It's just that I'm a bit of a dabbler in the lore of vampirism, and there are quite a few choices out there. I would assume that it is a combination of sanguinary/psychic/psionic vampirism, rather than one of those three... Anyway, just wondering. Jon _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From greyw01f at hotmail.com Tue Aug 12 14:14:03 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:14:03 +0000 Subject: ah ha... Message-ID: I believe I have solved the question of how many rulers any given reign can have, and that answer is: multiple. It may be the case that only one ruler reigns before the cycle turns, but it's possible that that is a rarity, judging from this excerpt, which I will paraphrase. It comes from _Yendi_ on page 64. Basically, Vlad makes a comment that indicates that the only way to tell if a Phoenix is a reborn Phoenix is if they turn decadent at their reign or not. Now this doesn't immediately answer the question at hand, but it *implies* something that is almost irrefutable--the comment implies there is confusion as to the nature of the Phoenix Emperor, but that simply cannot be, if there is only one Emperor per reign. Otherwise, the second consecutive Phoenix to rule would inevitably be the "reborn" one. As it is, this indicates that there are successive "decadent" Phoenixes, and from there, we may extrapolate that there are consequently successive rulers in other houses too. Jon
 
_________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Tue Aug 12 14:13:04 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 14:13:04 -0700 Subject: (spoilers) A few questions for Steve In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:58:55 +0000, you wrote: >>However, if we assume that >>Sethra's long life is due in no small part to her relationship with >>Dzur Mountain, we would need to assume that part of the Mountain siphons >>off to those she surrounds herself with. Which, I think, is a >>rather frightening thought. > >come to think of it, what *is* the nature of Sethra's vampirism? > >It's just that I'm a bit of a dabbler in the lore of vampirism, and there >are quite a few choices out there. I would assume that it is a combination >of sanguinary/psychic/psionic vampirism, rather than one of those three... > >Anyway, just wondering. Just about 8 months, and we'll likely be finding out. :-D -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Aug 12 14:27:10 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 14:27:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: (spoilers) A few questions for Steve Message-ID: <200308122127.h7CLR6I06032@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> lazarus wrote: > >It's just that I'm a bit of a dabbler in the lore of vampirism, and there > >are quite a few choices out there. I would assume that it is a combination > >of sanguinary/psychic/psionic vampirism, rather than one of those three... > > > >Anyway, just wondering. > > Just about 8 months, and we'll likely be finding out. :-D Heh. Maybe. However, as Sethra was a vampire prior to the events set down in Paarfi's history, and as we have been told on numerous occasions, by no less than Paarfi himself, he would never write about events which do not directly relate to the history for which he has the honor to write. That being the case, we may be left to wondering still. Though I still cannot wait to learn more about the Dark Lady of Dzur Mountain, even if we don't find out the reasons for her undeadness. Personaly, I hope to find out what's up with that left ear....:0 Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Aug 12 14:39:29 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 14:39:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ah ha... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Re the n-emperor problem, Vlad's _Yendi_-era offhand remark about reborn Phoenixes is in my view simply not good evidence. For one thing, it's Vlad, and for another it's _Y_-era. Perhaps more convincingly, we know that there have been only two R-Phoenixes, as we learnt at the beginning of _PG_ (conveyed in Paarfi's highest mode, by the way), so one can't make much of a claim. For that matter, Zerika the First doesn't apply. So you're basically arguing from Tortallik/Z_IV, which is as likely a Great Cycle edge-effect as anything else. And even if it weren't, the House Phoenix is simply different from the others. Incidentally, I wonder what will happen after a cycle of Great Cycles... On Tue, 12 Aug 2003, Jon Carey wrote: > > I believe I have solved the question of how many rulers any given reign can > have, and that answer is: multiple. It may be the case that only one ruler > reigns before the cycle turns, but it's possible that that is a rarity, > judging from this excerpt, which I will paraphrase. It comes from _Yendi_ > on page 64. > > Basically, Vlad makes a comment that indicates that the only way to tell if > a Phoenix is a reborn Phoenix is if they turn decadent at their reign or > not. > > Now this doesn't immediately answer the question at hand, but it *implies* > something that is almost irrefutable--the comment implies there is confusion > as to the nature of the Phoenix Emperor, but that simply cannot be, if there > is only one Emperor per reign. Otherwise, the second consecutive Phoenix to > rule would inevitably be the "reborn" one. As it is, this indicates that > there are successive "decadent" Phoenixes, and from there, we may > extrapolate that there are consequently successive rulers in other houses > too. From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Aug 12 15:16:24 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:16:24 -0500 Subject: (spoilers) A few questions for Steve In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030812221624.GB10564@infodancer.org> On Tue, Aug 12, 2003 at 08:58:55PM +0000, Jon Carey wrote: > >However, if we assume that > >Sethra's long life is due in no small part to her relationship with > >Dzur Mountain, we would need to assume that part of the Mountain siphons > >off to those she surrounds herself with. Which, I think, is a > >rather frightening thought. > come to think of it, what *is* the nature of Sethra's vampirism? > It's just that I'm a bit of a dabbler in the lore of vampirism, and there > are quite a few choices out there. I would assume that it is a combination > of sanguinary/psychic/psionic vampirism, rather than one of those three... We have seen, IIRC, small references to her drinking blood in small quantities and lots of references to her not eating much. We have seen her exceptionally pale. We have not seen any indications of crazed bloodlust. I think Sethra is a vampire by technicality only, and I suspect she sustains herself mostly on magic. Sort of like, "Damn, I'm dead. I think being a vampire would be most convenient; I couldn't stand the zombie-rot, and my bond with iceflame rules out being a lich. " I do not think she is a "psychic" vampire in any sense. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From usagigoya at hotmail.com Tue Aug 12 15:24:15 2003 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 22:24:15 +0000 Subject: Physical book defects and such (No SPOILERS) Message-ID: >From: emily frawley -0400 > > My question, albeit a petty one: > > Why in Verra's name is the fabric cover of the book BABY BLUE? Anyone else have "BLUE FINGERTIPS" after prolonged holding or reading of this book? The contents were excellent as always with a book written by SKZB! _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From jazzfish at softhome.net Tue Aug 12 15:34:39 2003 From: jazzfish at softhome.net (jazzfish at softhome.net) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:34:39 -0600 Subject: Physical book defects and such (No SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Steve Hubbell writes: >Anyone else have "BLUE FINGERTIPS" after prolonged holding or reading of >this book? Sure do... but only on the left hand, for some weird reason. *ponders* *picks up a hardback and reads half a page* How odd. I read left-handed. (I also got a copy with slightly poor binding. Oh well, life will go on.) >The contents were excellent as always with a book written by SKZB! So true. (Waiting to jump into the discussion until I'm back on my own machine next week.) ---- John W "Tucker" Taylor How many bitter men does it take to change a light bulb? We don't care, and if you try we'll just throw the lamp against the wall again. From jazzfish at softhome.net Tue Aug 12 15:58:56 2003 From: jazzfish at softhome.net (jazzfish at softhome.net) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:58:56 -0600 Subject: Sethra and connections (spoilery for Agyar / TRiH) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: S P O I L E R S P A C E Jon Carey writes: >come to think of it, what *is* the nature of Sethra's vampirism? Possibly very similar to Jack Agyar's. There's a decent amount of circumstantial evidence that the Jenoine peopled Dragaera with transplanted humans ('small invisible lights' et al), so it's (barely) possible that you can draw connections between /all/ of Steve's works... On a similar subject, doubtless someone's brought this up before, but: 1. There are remarkable similarities between the descriptions of cacoastrum and amorphia, and 'using one's own illiaster' smacks of pre-Empire sorcery. 2. If you're outside the known universe you've probably got a wildly different perspective on 'space'... Angels as Jenoine? Just barely possible. (AFB at moment, so can't provide any sort of decent textev, even assuming such exists.) ---- John W "Tucker" Taylor How many bitter men does it take to change a light bulb? We don't care, and if you try we'll just throw the lamp against the wall again. From melalvai at kemenel.org Tue Aug 12 16:31:38 2003 From: melalvai at kemenel.org (Rachel L. Ruhlen) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 18:31:38 -0500 Subject: Lord of Castle Black Message-ID: Just finished reading _The Lord of Castle Black_. I'm way behind on messages, because I've been avoiding reading them until I was finished. Here's my initial thoughts and then I'll go read the other messages and find out 10 other people have already pointed this out. Overall, I am now willing to admit that I was slightly disappointed by the predictability of _The Paths of the Dead_. Now that I have read _The Lord of Castle Black_, I am no longer disappointed. I feel that the predictability was set up on purpose to offset the contrast. That devious Paarfi. I'm very worried about Piro. I have the consolation of knowing at least that any offspring of Piro & Ibronka & his crowd (if they survive to reproduce, which I seriously doubt at this point), is not Mellar because Mellar had no Tiassa in him. I hope Khaavren never regrets his reaction though. I would esteem him less if he backs down -- too predictable. As I recall, _Viscomte de Bragelonne_ had some tragic events, including the death of d'Artagnon's son. I'm really worried about Piro. Next, a few specifics. Zerika's Easterner lover named Laszlo rang a bell. Sure enough, there's a Laszlo in _Brokedown Palace_. I concluded he can't be the same guy. That Laszlo is King Laszlo who was crazy. I was willing to overlook the age issue, because assuming her Easterner lover is the same we hear rumors about >from Vlad (not necessarily a safe assumption, I am aware), he's lived a long time, and we have some hints that Easterner witches can live as long as Dragaerans. Maybe longer. So, I speculate that her lover may be a descendant of Miklos. The first time Tazendra used the new & improved Orb, she nearly blew herself to smithereens. The first time Oidwa the Tsalmoth used the Orb to prove to Morrolan that it was back, she attempted to start a fire and succeeded with no remark and no unintended effects. That struck me as inconsistent. Finally, how did Paarfi come to know what transpired among the Gods in the two conversations reported? In _The Paths of the Dead_, Zerika was present at all conversations which he discussed, and I vaguely remember some clue somewhere about Paarfi having conversations directly with Zerika. This time, Devera was there for the first conversation, but slipped away for the second. I suppose she could have stuck around & listened in, but I don't see why she had to sneak like that. Were the Gods going to refrain from saying something just because of her presence? I don't find that likely. Admitting the unlikely possibility that Paarfi got information from Devera about the first conversation, how did he get the dialogue for the second? Now I'll go read the discussions that have probably already occurred about this. Rachel From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Tue Aug 12 16:33:19 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:33:19 -0700 Subject: Lord of Castle Black In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26uijvgooigaoji0995k7q0llnig27s6uc@4ax.com> On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 18:31:38 -0500, you wrote: >Just finished reading _The Lord of Castle Black_. I'm way behind on >messages, because I've been avoiding reading them until I was finished. >Here's my initial thoughts and then I'll go read the other messages and find >out 10 other people have already pointed this out. > Snip to the one question I've got an answer to, maybe. >The first time Tazendra used the new & improved Orb, she nearly blew herself >to smithereens. The first time Oidwa the Tsalmoth used the Orb to prove to >Morrolan that it was back, she attempted to start a fire and succeeded with >no remark and no unintended effects. That struck me as inconsistent. I think the difference may be that Tazendra had been practicing sorcery during the Interregnum, whilst Oidwa had most likely not even tried once she found out the Orb was gone. So when Oidwa tries to start a single small flame, we see some flames, but when Tazendra tries to go all out and really push, things get wildly out of hand. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From pulmon at comcast.net Tue Aug 12 16:50:26 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:50:26 -0400 Subject: Sethra and connections (spoilery for Agyar / TRiH) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: When you say that it is possible that the Jenoine peopled Dragaera with humans, I recall that the original inhabitants were the Serioli, that humans came later, and after the humans arrived, the Jenoine came along and mixed their genes in with various animals to create Humans (Dragaerans). While there is no direct textev that the Jenoine came ::long:: after humans (Easterners) I had made that assumption... Ken On Tuesday, August 12, 2003, at 06:58 PM, jazzfish at softhome.net wrote: > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > S > P > A > C > E > Jon Carey writes: >> come to think of it, what *is* the nature of Sethra's vampirism? > > Possibly very similar to Jack Agyar's. There's a decent amount of > circumstantial evidence that the Jenoine peopled Dragaera with > transplanted humans ('small invisible lights' et al), so it's (barely) > possible that you can draw connections between /all/ of Steve's > works... > On a similar subject, doubtless someone's brought this up before, but: > 1. There are remarkable similarities between the descriptions of > cacoastrum and amorphia, and 'using one's own illiaster' smacks of > pre-Empire sorcery. > 2. If you're outside the known universe you've probably got a wildly > different perspective on 'space'... > Angels as Jenoine? Just barely possible. (AFB at moment, so can't > provide any sort of decent textev, even assuming such exists.) > ---- > John W "Tucker" Taylor > How many bitter men does it take to change a light bulb? We don't > care, and if you try we'll just throw the lamp against the wall again. From usagigoya at hotmail.com Tue Aug 12 16:54:45 2003 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:54:45 +0000 Subject: Lord of Castle Black Message-ID: >From: "Rachel L. Ruhlen" -0500 > >Just finished reading _The Lord of Castle Black_. I'm way behind on >messages, because I've been avoiding reading them until I was finished. >Here's my initial thoughts and then I'll go read the other messages and >find >out 10 other people have already pointed this out. Snip to a different question... >Zerika's Easterner lover named Laszlo rang a bell. Sure enough, there's a >Laszlo in _Brokedown Palace_. I concluded he can't be the same guy. That >Laszlo is King Laszlo who was crazy. I was willing to overlook the age >issue, because assuming her Easterner lover is the same we hear rumors >about >from Vlad (not necessarily a safe assumption, I am aware), he's lived a >long >time, and we have some hints that Easterner witches can live as long as >Dragaerans. Maybe longer. So, I speculate that her lover may be a >descendant >of Miklos. Miklos and Brigitte are almost current with Vlad, i.e. Cawti is Brigitte's daughter (IIRC, SKZB has admitted to this previously), so this would put Zerika's Laszlo close to two hundred years before Miklos and his brother Laszlo. S Zerika's Laszlo may be an ancestor, may be the same guy (would explain why he went a little nuts), but can't be a descendent. Then again, maybe Laszlo is the John Smith of Fenario? _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Tue Aug 12 18:24:43 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:24:43 -0400 Subject: Lord of Castle Black In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030813012443.GA10030@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Tue, Aug 12, 2003 at 06:31:38PM -0500, Rachel L. Ruhlen wrote: > The first time Tazendra used the new & improved Orb, she nearly blew herself > to smithereens. The first time Oidwa the Tsalmoth used the Orb to prove to > Morrolan that it was back, she attempted to start a fire and succeeded with > no remark and no unintended effects. That struck me as inconsistent. Lazarus already posted a bit on this, but I'll add another. During the Interregnum, Tazendra has been learning Orb-less sorcery from Sethra Lavode. Presumably this has greatly increased her own skill and power. Thus this time when she pulled on the Orb with the same effort as she used pre-training, he was pulling a lot harder -- and got a helluva lot more from it. Oidwa, on the other hand, was probably quite out of practice, and was pulling so weakly that she only got results because the Orb was more powerful. From pgranzeau at cox.net Tue Aug 12 18:11:29 2003 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:11:29 -0500 Subject: A Mighty Thundering of LoCB Comments (No SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <29.45fa9abc.2c6a9e37@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030812200942.01dd6ca0@pop.east.cox.net> At 14:47 08/12/2003, Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > >> >1) My copy had the glue/binding problem as well.. > >> unnoticeable, except when > >> >reading... > >>> Oh, good, I feel somewhat better knowing I'm not the>only one with a >shoddy copy. > >>Make that three. But it wasn't too bad. I've gotten much worse. Atleast >the binding is staying on. > >And the content more than makes up for it. > >My copy is the same. And I also have gotten books in worse condition. I had >assumed that I was the only one with a bad binding job. Now I know better. > >PS: I am only about halfway done, and I am enjoying the book thoroughly. >Steve is an excellent story teller, with a twisted imagination. I'm not sure what your binding problem actually is; my copy seems to have the two pages where each signature abuts the next glued together to a depth of maybe a quarter of an inch. Is that it? -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Tue Aug 12 18:36:58 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:36:58 -0400 Subject: Lord of Castle Black In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F39963A.4040809@earthlink.net> Steve Hubbell wrote: > >> From: "Rachel L. Ruhlen" > 18:31:38 -0500 >> >> Just finished reading _The Lord of Castle Black_. I'm way behind on >> messages, because I've been avoiding reading them until I was finished. >> Here's my initial thoughts and then I'll go read the other messages >> and find >> out 10 other people have already pointed this out. > > Snip to a different question... > >> Zerika's Easterner lover named Laszlo rang a bell. Sure enough, >> there's a >> Laszlo in _Brokedown Palace_. I concluded he can't be the same guy. That >> Laszlo is King Laszlo who was crazy. I was willing to overlook the age >> issue, because assuming her Easterner lover is the same we hear >> rumors about >> from Vlad (not necessarily a safe assumption, I am aware), he's lived >> a long >> time, and we have some hints that Easterner witches can live as long as >> Dragaerans. Maybe longer. So, I speculate that her lover may be a >> descendant >> of Miklos. > > Miklos and Brigitte are almost current with Vlad, i.e. Cawti is > Brigitte's daughter (IIRC, SKZB has admitted to this previously), so > this would put Zerika's Laszlo close to two hundred years before > Miklos and his brother Laszlo. S Zerika's Laszlo may be an ancestor, > may be the same guy (would explain why he went a little nuts), but > can't be a descendent. Then again, maybe Laszlo is the John Smith of > Fenario? The interesting thing is that Zerika refers to Laszlo in the present tense in Phoenix. He is a warlock, which may give him some extended lifespan benefit (and if he has a pact with a god a la Arra...), but possibly the Orb has a hand in that itself. And if I recall correctly, Laszlo is indeed a common name. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Aug 12 18:51:13 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:51:13 -0400 Subject: Lord of Castle Black (SPOILERS) Message-ID: <137305CC.3C7C9CFD.00048EA6@aol.com> "Rachel L. Ruhlen" writes: > Just finished reading _The Lord of Castle Black_. D O N ' T F O R G E T S P O I L E R S P A C E ! > As I recall, _Viscomte de Bragelonne_ had some tragic > events, including the death of d'Artagnon's son. I'm really > worried about Piro. I got worried about him back in POTD when I realised that this huge three-part novel was named after someone who hasn't even been mentioned in the Vlad books. To the left, if we're wrong and he survives, his new occupation will give him a chance to meet Vlad, considering how Vlad has been making his living lately (okay, okay, he only did it once, but it'd still be a really cool scene). > Next, a few specifics. Zerika's Easterner lover named > Laszlo rang a bell. Sure enough, there's a Laszlo in > _Brokedown Palace_. I concluded he can't be the same guy. > That Laszlo is King Laszlo who was crazy. The Laszlo of BP is also disqualified on account of being slightly dead. > I was willing to overlook the age issue, because assuming > her Easterner lover is the same we hear rumors about from > Vlad (not necessarily a safe assumption, I am aware), Note that in _Phoenix_, Zerika confirms the rumors and even gives his name as Laszlo. > he's lived a long time, and we have some hints that > Easterner witches can live as long as Dragaerans. Maybe > longer. So, I speculate that her lover may be a descendant > of Miklos. That could be interesting. Laszlo is certainly a typically Hungar^H^H^H^H Fenarian name. > The first time Tazendra used the new & improved Orb, she > nearly blew herself to smithereens. The first time Oidwa > the Tsalmoth used the Orb to prove to Morrolan that it was > back, she attempted to start a fire and succeeded with no > remark and no unintended effects. That struck me as > inconsistent. I agree with Lazarus' opinion that it was due to Tazendra attempting sorcery during the Interregnum. See also _Phoenix_ where Verra denies that the Orb was modified. > Finally, how did Paarfi come to know what transpired among > the Gods in the two conversations reported? In _The Paths > of the Dead_, Zerika was present at all conversations which > he discussed, No, only the second, though the Orb may have been present for the first. > and I vaguely remember some clue somewhere about Paarfi > having conversations directly with Zerika. He mentions her dropping hints. > This time, Devera was there for the first conversation, but > slipped away for the second. I suppose she could have stuck > around & listened in, but I don't see why she had to sneak > like that. Were the Gods going to refrain from saying > something just because of her presence? I don't find that > likely. Admitting the unlikely possibility that Paarfi got > information from Devera about the first conversation, how > did he get the dialogue for the second? He made it up? See the first several pages of Chapter 18. A quick question for Mr. Brust: Is the Tri'nagore/Moranthe confusion at the very end a mistake? Or is this HoJ time wierdness and Moranthe was the failed first attempt? --KG From nthuleen at students.wisc.edu Tue Aug 12 18:59:08 2003 From: nthuleen at students.wisc.edu (Nancy Thuleen) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:59:08 -0500 Subject: Lord of Castle Black (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <137305CC.3C7C9CFD.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <137305CC.3C7C9CFD.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: I don't think this is a spoiler, but just in case ... S P O I L S P O R T At 21:51 -0400 12.8.2003, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > A quick question for Mr. Brust: Is the Tri'nagore/Moranthe > confusion at the very end a mistake? Or is this HoJ time > wierdness and Moranthe was the failed first attempt? Gods, am I glad someone asked that! :) I've been trying to figure out that scene since finishing the book yesterday, and my head is starting to hurt. But I keep thinking that it's supposed to be something of a mystery, to be revealed in the next volume. Either that, or I'm very dense? - Nancy. From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Tue Aug 12 19:15:45 2003 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:15:45 -0700 Subject: Lord of Castle Black (SPOILERS) Message-ID: >From: Nancy Thuleen >Reply-To: Nancy Thuleen >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: Lord of Castle Black (SPOILERS) >Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:59:08 -0500 > >I don't think this is a spoiler, but just in case ... > > >S >P >O >I >L >S >P >O >R >T > > >At 21:51 -0400 12.8.2003, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > > A quick question for Mr. Brust: Is the Tri'nagore/Moranthe > > confusion at the very end a mistake? Or is this HoJ time > > wierdness and Moranthe was the failed first attempt? > >Gods, am I glad someone asked that! :) I've been trying to figure out that >scene since finishing the book yesterday, and my head is starting to hurt. >But I keep thinking that it's supposed to be something of a mystery, to be >revealed in the next volume. Either that, or I'm very dense? Personally, I am in favor of the time weirdness theory, because that sets up Skinter as Morrollan's definite enemy- plus, I believe Habile refers to a previous failed attempt, and how this other god might be more of an aid. James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Aug 12 19:30:22 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lord of Castle Black (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: References: <137305CC.3C7C9CFD.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Aug 2003, Nancy Thuleen wrote: > > S > P > O > I > L > S > P > O > R > T > > > At 21:51 -0400 12.8.2003, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > > A quick question for Mr. Brust: Is the Tri'nagore/Moranthe > > confusion at the very end a mistake? Or is this HoJ time > > wierdness and Moranthe was the failed first attempt? > > Gods, am I glad someone asked that! :) I've been trying to figure out that > scene since finishing the book yesterday, and my head is starting to hurt. > But I keep thinking that it's supposed to be something of a mystery, to be > revealed in the next volume. Either that, or I'm very dense? > > - Nancy. Hi, I don't understand the problem. On pg 383, Habil says that they had tried reaching a god before, but it hadn't worked - they tried the wrong god. They decide to try Tri'nagore, something of an enemy of Verra, given the attack on Blackchapel by his followers, as described in _Issola_. The gods present (or conversing) at the end of _TLoCB_ don't include T. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Aug 12 19:34:44 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:34:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lord of Castle Black In-Reply-To: <3F39963A.4040809@earthlink.net> References: <3F39963A.4040809@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Aug 2003, Jose Marquez wrote: > > Steve Hubbell wrote: > > > > >> From: "Rachel L. Ruhlen" >> 18:31:38 -0500 > >> > >> Just finished reading _The Lord of Castle Black_. I'm way behind on > >> messages, because I've been avoiding reading them until I was finished. > >> Here's my initial thoughts and then I'll go read the other messages > >> and find > >> out 10 other people have already pointed this out. > > > > Snip to a different question... > > > >> Zerika's Easterner lover named Laszlo rang a bell. Sure enough, > > > The interesting thing is that Zerika refers to Laszlo in the present > tense in Phoenix. He is a warlock, which may give him some extended > lifespan benefit (and if he has a pact with a god a la Arra...), but > possibly the Orb has a hand in that itself. And if I recall correctly, > Laszlo is indeed a common name. Z says she loves L for his soul (in _Phoenix_, I think). I had thought when I saw the name that the current L was the reincarnation of the old. We don't know how good a warlock Noish-pa is, but he seems more accomplished than Vlad, who seems to be very talented, and N-p doesn't seem to capable of entertaining an Empress at 70, rather less than 270... From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Tue Aug 12 20:31:37 2003 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 22:31:37 -0500 Subject: Lord of Castle Black References: <3F39963A.4040809@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3F39B119.7030604@comcast.net> I disremember how long Zerika has been on the throne when Vlad comes on the scene; could Laszlo have in face died, been reincarnated, and grown up? I don't recall that Zerika used his *name* when talking to Vlad; she just said that her lover's soul was incarnate, at present, in an Easterner. Mia From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Tue Aug 12 20:49:58 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:49:58 -0700 Subject: A Mighty Thundering of LoCB Comments (No SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030812200942.01dd6ca0@pop.east.cox.net> References: <29.45fa9abc.2c6a9e37@aol.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030812200942.01dd6ca0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <7adjjvofuvffa6e1tn7dhk1rli9clbrn2h@4ax.com> On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:11:29 -0500, you wrote: >At 14:47 08/12/2003, Randi128 at aol.com wrote: >> >> >1) My copy had the glue/binding problem as well.. >> >> unnoticeable, except when >> >> >reading... >> >>> Oh, good, I feel somewhat better knowing I'm not the>only one with a >>shoddy copy. >> >>Make that three. But it wasn't too bad. I've gotten much worse. Atleast >>the binding is staying on. >> >And the content more than makes up for it. >> >>My copy is the same. And I also have gotten books in worse condition. I had >>assumed that I was the only one with a bad binding job. Now I know better. >> >>PS: I am only about halfway done, and I am enjoying the book thoroughly. >>Steve is an excellent story teller, with a twisted imagination. > >I'm not sure what your binding problem actually is; my copy seems to have >the two pages where each signature abuts the next glued together to a depth >of maybe a quarter of an inch. Is that it? That's mine. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Tue Aug 12 20:57:07 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:57:07 -0700 Subject: Lord of Castle Black (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <137305CC.3C7C9CFD.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <137305CC.3C7C9CFD.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:51:13 -0400, you wrote: >> The first time Tazendra used the new & improved Orb, she >> nearly blew herself to smithereens. The first time Oidwa >> the Tsalmoth used the Orb to prove to Morrolan that it was >> back, she attempted to start a fire and succeeded with no >> remark and no unintended effects. That struck me as >> inconsistent. > >I agree with Lazarus' opinion that it was due to Tazendra >attempting sorcery during the Interregnum. See also >_Phoenix_ where Verra denies that the Orb was modified. Thank you, but on the other hand, didn't we see a bit in the Halls where the gods did indeed discuss the modifications to the Orb? -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 12 21:34:00 2003 From: Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net (Daemian Spayde) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:34:00 -0700 Subject: Great Cycle Thread References: <4400DC3B.58663109.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <037d01c36154$1e92f340$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> Since I haven't gotten my copy of LoCB yet, I must resort to replying to these side threads, yea me! Isn't it possible that Tortaalik 'decided' that he was the beginning of the Great Cycle of the Dragon? He is/was the type of Emp with that whole "Universe Centers around me" mentality. Katt Jean a/k/a Daemian Spayde, Vlad Clone Mk. VII ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 5:24 PM Subject: Re: (spoilers removed) A few questions for Steve > "Peter H. Granzeau" writes: > > > There seems to be a Great Cycle (Cycle of Cycles). The > > Interregnum seems to have ended one Great Cycle, > > Nitpick: the Great Cycle of the Dragon actually began with > Tortaalik's reign, as shown by the title page of FHYA. > > > --KG From hans117 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 21:37:01 2003 From: hans117 at yahoo.com (Hans Schweitzer) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:37:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A Mighty Thundering of LoCB Comments (No SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <7adjjvofuvffa6e1tn7dhk1rli9clbrn2h@4ax.com> Message-ID: <20030813043701.13018.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com> On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:11:29 -0500, you wrote: >At 14:47 08/12/2003, Randi128 at aol.com wrote: >> >> >1) My copy had the glue/binding problem as well.. >> >> unnoticeable, except when >> >> >reading... >> >>> Oh, good, I feel somewhat better knowing I'm not the>only one with a >>shoddy copy. >> >>Make that three. But it wasn't too bad. I've gotten much worse. Atleast >>the binding is staying on. >> >And the content more than makes up for it. >> >>My copy is the same. And I also have gotten books in worse condition. I had >>assumed that I was the only one with a bad binding job. Now I know better. >> >>PS: I am only about halfway done, and I am enjoying the book thoroughly. >>Steve is an excellent story teller, with a twisted imagination. > >I'm not sure what your binding problem actually is; my copy seems to have >the two pages where each signature abuts the next glued together to a depth >of maybe a quarter of an inch. Is that it? Just so people know that not every book is like this, my copy was fine. I would laugh evily, but I'm not in the mood. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software From davids at kithrup.com Tue Aug 12 21:38:23 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:38:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lord of Castle Black In-Reply-To: <3F39B119.7030604@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Aug 2003, Mia McDavid wrote: >I disremember how long Zerika has been on the throne when Vlad comes >on the scene; According to our esteemed collegue's timeline page on the world-spanning weave, here: http://world.std.com/~alexx/timeline.txt /Phoenix/ takes place approximately 244 years after the end of the Interregnum. > could Laszlo have in face died, been reincarnated, and grown up? This might or might not be possible; to the right, Easterners are usually short-lived, to the left, while their souls, as we know, are not usually accepted on the Paths of the Dead, this does not preclude some other mechanism from allowing them to reincarnate. Note that in at least one of the histories which tells of events that take place in the Paths of the Dead, it is pointed out that Dragaeran souls and Easterner souls are in fact of the same type, which if true, has interesting metaphysical ramifications. While this soul identity is related by Aliera (who might be expected to know), we hear of it from the writings of a particular Easterner who is known to both err and lie. Yet this identity of souls is not too far outside the bounds of believability, so we may accept it at least on a provisional basis until we see it flatly contradicted by one who truly knows better. > > I don't recall that Zerika used his *name* when talking to Vlad; >she just said that her lover's soul was incarnate, at present, in an >Easterner. > Alas, milady, in this one instance (and I would not dare to presume that it might possibly be the case in any other instance), your noble and worthy memories are somewhat at a variance with what is actually recorded in the the history related by Vladimir the Easterner, also called Taltos (and while the Easterner might not be accurate or honest in what he has recorded, we must nevertheless point out, with the greatest of brevity, that he has in fact recorded it). /Phoenix/, pg 157: "His name is Laszlo." From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Aug 12 21:50:06 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:50:06 -0500 Subject: Lord of Castle Black In-Reply-To: References: <3F39B119.7030604@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20030813045006.GB31235@infodancer.org> On Tue, Aug 12, 2003 at 09:38:23PM -0700, David Silberstein wrote: > On Tue, 12 Aug 2003, Mia McDavid wrote: > > >I disremember how long Zerika has been on the throne when Vlad comes > >on the scene; > > According to our esteemed collegue's timeline page on the > world-spanning weave, here: > > http://world.std.com/~alexx/timeline.txt > > /Phoenix/ takes place approximately 244 years after the end of the > Interregnum. > > > could Laszlo have in face died, been reincarnated, and grown up? > > This might or might not be possible; to the right, Easterners are > usually short-lived, to the left, while their souls, as we know, are > not usually accepted on the Paths of the Dead, this does not preclude > some other mechanism from allowing them to reincarnate. To the contrary, the Paths of the Dead are a mechanism to, basically, prevent reincarnation. According to Aliera's spiel, if you die, your soul goes elsewhere. If you have no pact with some deity, then it eventually finds a new home to reincarnate into; otherwise it goes to the deity you contracted with. This applies to souls of both kinds (Easterners, Dragaereans) when in the natural state. However, some Dragaereans are sent to the Paths of the Dead so that the Gods may judge and guide the soul towards their own purposes, rather than an effectively random reincarnation. This short-circuits the normal process. At least, that's how I understood the explanation. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From TimN at rcn.com Tue Aug 12 22:19:46 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 01:19:46 -0400 Subject: Sethra and connections (spoilery for Agyar / TRiH) References: Message-ID: <006701c3615a$92938c40$d916fea9@ananda> I had assumed that, originally, only the Serioli were present. Then, independant human colonists arrived via some means, and THEN the Jenoine came. I can't confirm this assumption either though. :) ----- Original Message ----- From: Kenneth Gorelick To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 7:50 PM Subject: Re: Sethra and connections (spoilery for Agyar / TRiH) > When you say that it is possible that the Jenoine peopled Dragaera with > humans, I recall that the original inhabitants were the Serioli, that > humans came later, and after the humans arrived, the Jenoine came along > and mixed their genes in with various animals to create Humans > (Dragaerans). While there is no direct textev that the Jenoine came > ::long:: after humans (Easterners) I had made that assumption... > > Ken > On Tuesday, August 12, 2003, at 06:58 PM, jazzfish at softhome.net wrote: > > > S > > P > > O > > I > > L > > E > > R > > S > > P > > A > > C > > E > > Jon Carey writes: > >> come to think of it, what *is* the nature of Sethra's vampirism? > > > > Possibly very similar to Jack Agyar's. There's a decent amount of > > circumstantial evidence that the Jenoine peopled Dragaera with > > transplanted humans ('small invisible lights' et al), so it's (barely) > > possible that you can draw connections between /all/ of Steve's > > works... > > On a similar subject, doubtless someone's brought this up before, but: > > 1. There are remarkable similarities between the descriptions of > > cacoastrum and amorphia, and 'using one's own illiaster' smacks of > > pre-Empire sorcery. > > 2. If you're outside the known universe you've probably got a wildly > > different perspective on 'space'... > > Angels as Jenoine? Just barely possible. (AFB at moment, so can't > > provide any sort of decent textev, even assuming such exists.) > > ---- > > John W "Tucker" Taylor > > How many bitter men does it take to change a light bulb? We don't > > care, and if you try we'll just throw the lamp against the wall again. > From mtiller at ntlworld.com Wed Aug 13 01:49:01 2003 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:49:01 +0100 Subject: Sethra and connections (spoilery for Agyar / TRiH) In-Reply-To: <006701c3615a$92938c40$d916fea9@ananda> Message-ID: <001d01c36177$be574a20$0101a8c0@markspc> -----Original Message----- From: Timothy Nelson [mailto:TimN at rcn.com] Sent: 13 August 2003 06:20 Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Sethra and connections (spoilery for Agyar / TRiH) >I had assumed that, originally, only the Serioli were present. Then, independant human colonists arrived via some means, >and THEN the Jenoine came. I can't confirm this assumption either though. :) No I'm fairly certain that Sethra at some point says that humans were brought to Dragaera by the Jenoine. Mark From melalvai at kemenel.org Wed Aug 13 07:05:30 2003 From: melalvai at kemenel.org (Rachel L. Ruhlen) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:05:30 -0500 Subject: Dumas In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20030813083801.007fca70@mail.softhome.net> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: emily frawley [mailto:simbelmyne at softhome.net] Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 7:38 AM To: Rachel L. Ruhlen Subject: Re: Lord of Castle Black >>As I recall, _Viscomte de >>Bragelonne_ had some tragic events, including the death of d'Artagnon's son. >>I'm really worried about Piro. > >I think that you are thinking of _Man in the Iron Mask_, in which a man and >an iron mask appear for all of about three chapters and it seems like >everyone except Aramis dies (Porthos gets the best death scene of them >all). Athos was the one who produced Raoul de Bragelonne. As far as I >know, none of the others had children. >Not to be pendantic, but I just finished reading all of these about a week >ago, so its all fresh in my head. I'm glad you've read them recently. It was so hard to find them at all, and figure out where each volume fit (the last book is split up different ways depending on publisher), and half of them were through interlibrary loan, that after reading them years ago I never made a second attempt. Right, Athos was the only one with a child. I'm remembering now everyone dying off. I speculate now, that everyone will die except Khaavren (who is obviously alive in Vlad's time). I guess it won't be so bad if they all get good death scenes. And surely they'll be reincarnated. What edition/translation/etc do you recommend? Especially among those that are in print? Rachel From corsairx at iinet.net.au Wed Aug 13 07:45:31 2003 From: corsairx at iinet.net.au (Andrew G-S) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 00:45:31 +1000 Subject: Sethra and connections (spoilery for Agyar / TRiH) In-Reply-To: <001d01c36177$be574a20$0101a8c0@markspc> References: <001d01c36177$be574a20$0101a8c0@markspc> Message-ID: <3F3A4F0B.1030006@iinet.net.au> Mark Tiller wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: Timothy Nelson [mailto:TimN at rcn.com] > Sent: 13 August 2003 06:20 > Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Sethra and connections (spoilery for Agyar / TRiH) > > > >>I had assumed that, originally, only the Serioli were present. Then, > > independant human colonists arrived via some means, > >>and THEN the Jenoine came. I can't confirm this assumption either though. > > :) > > No I'm fairly certain that Sethra at some point says that humans were > brought to Dragaera by the Jenoine. G'day, I'm fairly new to Dragaera series, and very new to this list. I picked up Dragon by chance about two years ago, enjoyed it and wished for a sequal and I've only just tumbled to the fact that there is a series! I'm currently working my way through the Vlad novels and I think Sethra actually discusses this at length in Issola (from memory Vlad gets a bit shirty at being dragged into things over his head and demands some explanations. Sethra gives him something to think about.) Issola is the most recent one that I've read, managed to score it in a hardback with Dragon; which is a bonus - my orginal copy is starting to come apart. Edit: Sorry Mark, I sent this directly to you by accident Cheers, Andrew From simbelmyne at softhome.net Wed Aug 13 09:42:30 2003 From: simbelmyne at softhome.net (emily frawley) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:42:30 -0400 Subject: Dumas In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20030813083801.007fca70@mail.softhome.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20030813124230.007f41e0@mail.softhome.net> >I'm glad you've read them recently. It was so hard to find them at all, and >figure out where each volume fit (the last book is split up different ways >depending on publisher), and half of them were through interlibrary loan, >that after reading them years ago I never made a second attempt. Right, >Athos was the only one with a child. I'm remembering now everyone dying off. >I speculate now, that everyone will die except Khaavren (who is obviously >alive in Vlad's time). I guess it won't be so bad if they all get good death >scenes. And surely they'll be reincarnated. > >What edition/translation/etc do you recommend? Especially among those that >are in print? > I have have an eclectic selection of editions, since I bought them as I stumbled over them. Most of them are Oxford Press and as far as I can tell, the translations aren't that bad. However, I took Spanish in high school and have forgotten basically all of it, so I'm not sure that I would know a good translation from a bad one. These editions do have little footnotes about some of the people and places and phrases that would have been common in Dumas's time that I found very useful. The other editions I have are mass market paperbacks that have 'Now A Major Motion Picture' splashed over their covers. I don't put too much faith in their translations. My copies go: Three Musketeers, Twenty Years After, Vicomte de Bragellone, Louise de la Valliere, and Man in the Iron Mask. When I read one of the lackeys (Porthos's, I believe, I'm having a brain fart on his actual name) vow to die for d'Artangnan the first chance he got, I nearly fell out of my chair I was laughing so hard. Emily From greyw01f at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 12:27:41 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:27:41 +0000 Subject: ah ha... Message-ID: In finishing Yendi, I found something that nullified my argument but I can't remember where it is...pg 124 or 184 or something like that, but it makes his earlier comment change context, and so... The debate/debeat goes on... Jon _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From melalvai at kemenel.org Wed Aug 13 13:51:55 2003 From: melalvai at kemenel.org (Rachel L. Ruhlen) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:51:55 -0500 Subject: Dumas Message-ID: Good point, about the time-line and Paresh telling of possible long-ago events. Rachel -----Original Message----- From: Jon Carey [mailto:greyw01f at hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 3:31 PM To: melalvai at kemenel.org Subject: Re: Dumas I don't see Aerich dying off--I am in the process of reading _Teckla_ and Paresh, a Teckla, is recounting his history to Vlad--he mentions Aerich, or at least, the Duke of Arylle, coming to the door and asking for his Master, presumably about why he wasn't receiving his tribute/tithe whatever. (Cause of a massive fire that killed everyone but Paresh). It was interesting to see how the character changes when it's not Paarfi recounting the history. But then, Paresh is Dragaeran, and so the story he tells might well have been before the Duke of Arylle is presumably killed in _Sethra_. Jon _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Aug 13 14:32:40 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:32:40 -0700 Subject: Lord of Castle Black (SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <137305CC.3C7C9CFD.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030813143211.01d7cd20@localhost> At 09:51 PM 8/12/2003 -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > >A quick question for Mr. Brust: Is the Tri'nagore/Moranthe >confusion at the very end a mistake? No, that one is not a mistake. From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Wed Aug 13 14:50:30 2003 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:50:30 -0500 Subject: Lord of Castle Black References: Message-ID: <3F3AB2A6.4070606@comcast.net> Good sir: I bow before your superior scholarship. It would be rather a stretch that Laszlo should be reincarnate with the same name, though, I suppose, not impossible. It is more likely, methinks, that through some sorcery, possibly aided by her intimate association with the Orb, Zerika has been able to keep him alive and, one hopes, young and fit. It would certainly be dreary for a human to have a lover that took ill and died every few decades; one would then have to find his reincarnation and wait for it to attain adulthood; a most tedious lapse. As to the nature of human and Easterner souls: While the Easterner Taltos (I suppose we should be more respectful; is he not in fact a Baron now?) is known to both err and lie, it is not clear to me that he willfully lies *to his readers*. Further, if he were going to lie about anything, I would think it would be (at least by omission) about the fact that his soul is that of a Dragon and a traitor. This fact, revealed to him by Aliera, is most unpalatable, not to mention shaming, to him, and I cannot think that he should wish to reveal it. Yet he does. Is this not strange. Your obedient Servant, Mia M'Daffyd From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Wed Aug 13 14:56:57 2003 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:56:57 -0500 Subject: Lord of Castle Black References: <3F39B119.7030604@comcast.net> <20030813045006.GB31235@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <3F3AB429.2000302@comcast.net> And yet, humans (of all sorts? One *knows* about Dragons) cherish the right to have their bodies physically carried to Deathgate Falls and sent over. One has even seen them swear "By my right to Deathgate . . ." One would think, incidentally, that there is rather more traffic to and >from the falls than one sees in 'Yendi'. Unless the Easterner Taltos is lying or omitting, he and Lord Morrolan met no-one but cat-centaurs on that trip. They camped in the open. Yet, if funeral processions are common, would there not be a road, possibly posting-houses? Each House has a Book of the Paths of the Dead; Zerika studied that for her House carefully before she made her attempt; and Lord Morrolan did the same. In Dragon we see quite ordinary Dragon soldiers anointed for Deathgate (even though for one poor fellow it makes no difference whatsoever). There are many puzzles here. Your ob't etc. Mia M'Daffyd From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Aug 13 15:00:52 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:00:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lord of Castle Black [SPOILERS] In-Reply-To: <3F3AB2A6.4070606@comcast.net> References: <3F3AB2A6.4070606@comcast.net> Message-ID: s p o i l e r s etc etc I'm sure whoever you're referring to bows back. I just want to jump back in on this point, since I appear to agree with the bowee, that Pel's point in his confession of Zerika would still apply - even if Lazlo dies on occasion, Z might not be going bad for the very reason that he's around, so the Cycle arranges for his soul to reappear in the proper circumstances to make Z happy... Re Vlad and his soul - he has hate/love child/predator relationship with Dragearans, and might well in some sense be proud as well as ashamed to have the same sort of soul as Morrolan and Aliera... On Wed, 13 Aug 2003, Mia McDavid wrote: > Good sir: > > I bow before your superior scholarship. > > It would be rather a stretch that Laszlo should be reincarnate with the > same name, though, I suppose, not impossible. It is more likely, > methinks, that through some sorcery, possibly aided by her intimate > association with the Orb, Zerika has been able to keep him alive and, > one hopes, young and fit. > > It would certainly be dreary for a human to have a lover that took ill > and died every few decades; one would then have to find his > reincarnation and wait for it to attain adulthood; a most tedious lapse. > > As to the nature of human and Easterner souls: While the Easterner > Taltos (I suppose we should be more respectful; is he not in fact a > Baron now?) is known to both err and lie, it is not clear to me that he > willfully lies *to his readers*. Further, if he were going to lie about > anything, I would think it would be (at least by omission) about the > fact that his soul is that of a Dragon and a traitor. This fact, > revealed to him by Aliera, is most unpalatable, not to mention shaming, > to him, and I cannot think that he should wish to reveal it. Yet he > does. Is this not strange. > > Your obedient Servant, > > Mia M'Daffyd > > > From hans117 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 15:58:33 2003 From: hans117 at yahoo.com (Hans Schweitzer) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lord of Castle Black Message-ID: <20030813225833.69061.qmail@web13803.mail.yahoo.com> >> The first time Tazendra used the new & improved Orb, she >> nearly blew herself to smithereens. The first time Oidwa >> the Tsalmoth used the Orb to prove to Morrolan that it was >> back, she attempted to start a fire and succeeded with no >> remark and no unintended effects. That struck me as >> inconsistent. > >I agree with Lazarus' opinion that it was due to Tazendra >attempting sorcery during the Interregnum. See also > Phoenix where Verra denies that the Orb was modified. >Thank you, but on the other hand, didn't we see a bit in the Halls >where the gods did indeed discuss the modifications to the Orb? I believe that the orb was modified and that is what caused the greater amount of power available to Tazendra. The reason that Tazendra nearly blew herself up where Oidwa did not is simply a comment on Tazendra's character. Oidwa probably got the energy he needed easier and quicker then expected, but chose to take the same amount of energy required to cast his spell that he normally would. He was already so shocked by the orbs reappearance that he made no comment on the ease at its use. He might not have even noticed considering it was over two hundred years since he had last called upon the power of the orb. Tazendra doesn't seem to be the person who would change her plan so quickly. She was planning on spending X amount of time and effort to call upon the power of the orb. When she received more energy then she desired she did not stop calling the power, but just used the extra power in the spell. She received the observed results. She wasn't surprised by the return of the orb, and had very good reason to notice its greater power. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software From hans117 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 16:38:13 2003 From: hans117 at yahoo.com (Hans Schweitzer) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dumas Message-ID: <20030813233813.28723.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> >I'm remembering now everyone dying off. >I speculate now, that everyone will die except Khaavren (who is obviously >alive in Vlad's time). I guess it won't be so bad if they all get good death >scenes. And surely they'll be reincarnated. Having never read Dumas I am not sure who will die based on that, but I do know that our good friend Tazendra must die at some point (but, it does not seem like she will mind too much, as long as it is a glorious end.) She has been marked for this end ever since she was referred to as Tazendra Lavode. It has been repeatedly stated that in Vlad's time Sethra is the last of the Lavodes. Sethra herself says this in Issola and then goes on to say that there is one more, but he is not ready. (I believe that this person is the lord of castle black, but this is just a guess.) So this would lead me to believe that either Tazendra dies or quits the Lavodes, the first being the more likely. Or this is just another time when there is no historical accuracy. As for being reincarnated I find this doubtful. Tazendra and whoever else shall be slain will most likely go to deathgate falls. (They have certainly served the empire very well and unless Brust acts too much like himself they will have grand deaths.) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Wed Aug 13 16:45:06 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:45:06 -0700 Subject: Dumas In-Reply-To: <20030813233813.28723.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030813233813.28723.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8ajljv4n0kmkdmmsqvqonc47isr1bgh76p@4ax.com> On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:38:13 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >>I'm remembering now everyone dying off. >>I speculate now, that everyone will die except Khaavren (who is obviously >>alive in Vlad's time). I guess it won't be so bad if they all get good death >>scenes. And surely they'll be reincarnated. > > >Having never read Dumas I am not sure who will die based on that, but I do know that our good friend Tazendra must die at some point (but, it does not seem like she will mind too much, as long as it is a glorious end.) She has been marked for this end ever since she was referred to as Tazendra Lavode. It has been repeatedly stated that in Vlad's time Sethra is the last of the Lavodes. Sethra herself says this in Issola and then goes on to say that there is one more, but he is not ready. (I believe that this person is the lord of castle black, but this is just a guess.) So this would lead me to believe that either Tazendra dies or quits the Lavodes, the first being the more likely. Or this is just another time when there is no historical accuracy. As for being reincarnated I find this doubtful. Tazendra and whoever else shall be slain will most likely go to deathgate falls. (They have certainly served the empire very well and unless Brust acts too much like himself they will > have grand deaths.) > > Actually, it's possible she survives, and simply quits being a LaVode. BTW, can you set your line length? That's very hard to read. Thanks! -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From alexx at TheWorld.com Wed Aug 13 16:53:02 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:53:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sethra and connections (spoilery for Agyar / TRiH) In-Reply-To: <001d01c36177$be574a20$0101a8c0@markspc> from "Mark Tiller" at Aug 13, 2003 09:49:01 AM Message-ID: <200308132353.TAA12229619@shell.TheWorld.com> > > -----Original Message----- > From: Timothy Nelson [mailto:TimN at rcn.com] > Sent: 13 August 2003 06:20 > Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Sethra and connections > > > >I had assumed that, originally, only the Serioli were present. Then, > independant human colonists arrived via some means, > >and THEN the Jenoine came. I can't confirm this assumption either though. > :) > > No I'm fairly certain that Sethra at some point says that humans were > brought to Dragaera by the Jenoine. Quoting from my timeline: Wayyyyyy back Serioli appear to be the original natives of Dagaera (Is 36). Terrans(?) discover Dragaera (P 117, D 110, Is 36). Although some theories claim they were brought in by the Jenoine (J 110), this is pretty clearly false (Is 35-36). Many Terran lifeforms are introduced to Dragaera (notably Hawks, Orca, and horses, plus many animals and plants used for food), although native ones are probably already abundant. Not all animals and plants with Terran names are necessarily the same as their Terran counterparts, due to both evolution and "translation errors", but as a general guideline, if it's called a duck, assume it's a duck. Native lifeforms at this time include Dragon, Dzur, Jhereg, and Serioli (Is 36). Are the cat-centaurs native? The "Dragaeran" race arrives on Dragaera *after* the Terrans (Is 36). Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "In the script description for this panel I unfortunately allowed myself a moment of laxity and omitted the words "INSPECTOR ABBERLINE'S HEAD IS STILL ON HIS SHOULDERS DURING THIS PANEL. IT HAS NOT RETREATED TORTOISE-LIKE INTO HIS NECK, NOR HAS IT IN SOME FASHION MANAGED TO REFRACT LIGHT AROUND IT LIKE A KLINGON SPACESHIP SO THAT THE INSPECTOR RESEMBLES SOMETHING OUT OF MAGRITTE WITH HIS BOWLER FLOATING THERE SUSPENDED ABOVE THE EMPTY COLLAR OF HIS COAT." Last time I'll make that mistake, obviously." -- Alan Moore in correspondence with Dave Sim about _From Hell_ [All tongue-in-cheek, folks, he and the artist really do get on well...] From alexx at TheWorld.com Wed Aug 13 16:56:55 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:56:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Paresh and "Arylle" In-Reply-To: from "Rachel L. Ruhlen" at Aug 13, 2003 03:51:55 PM Message-ID: <200308132356.TAA12375268@shell.TheWorld.com> > I don't see Aerich dying off--I am in the process of reading _Teckla_ and > Paresh, a Teckla, is recounting his history to Vlad--he mentions Aerich, or > at least, the Duke of Arylle, coming to the door and asking for his Master, > presumably about why he wasn't receiving his tribute/tithe whatever. (Cause > of a massive fire that killed everyone but Paresh). It was interesting to > see how the character changes when it's not Paarfi recounting the history. > But then, Paresh is Dragaeran, and so the story he tells might well have > been before the Duke of Arylle is presumably killed in _Sethra_. Paresh's story doesn't actually bode well for our Aerich. Quoting my timeline again: ??? PI [Miscellaneous events that aren't exactly dated, but are Post-Interregnum and Pre-Vlad.] Paresh grows up in a Dzurlord's home (Tk 27). At 60, Paresh gets land (Tk 28). At 80, Paresh's loans are paid off (Tk 28). At 81, Paresh's home burns down (Tk 28-29). [This implies subtly that his master is Tazendra, who has some history of exploding experiments (FH 52, 434-435). Her literary model, Porthos, was also noted for his extensive (if largely unread) library.] Paresh spends "most of a year" learning sorcery (Tk 30). Paresh fights Aerich's son(?) (Tk 31-32). [Paresh was almost certainly born after the Interregnum, since sorcery figures highly in his biography, and he makes no mention of any interruption of it. He battles "The Duke of Arylle", who is "about my age" (in Dragaaeran terms, quite a young man). We can infer that Aerich has either died or retired. His literary model, Athos, died and left his estate to an adopted son in _The Man in the Iron Mask_. The Duke refers to Paresh's master as "him", but this is probably a mistranslation of the genderless Dragaeran pronoun on Brust's part (it being unlikely that Aerich's heir would be either misinformed or rude).] Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx My commitment is to truth, not consistency. [Seen on a Nancy Button, http://www.nancybuttons.com/] From alexx at TheWorld.com Wed Aug 13 17:00:45 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:00:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Lord of Castle Black In-Reply-To: <3F3AB2A6.4070606@comcast.net> from "Mia McDavid" at Aug 13, 2003 04:50:30 PM Message-ID: <200308140000.UAA12238664@shell.TheWorld.com> > > It would be rather a stretch that Laszlo should be reincarnate with the > same name, though, I suppose, not impossible. One should note that past-life-regression has been stated to be feasible on Dragaera (at least with Sethra Lavode's help). It's possible that a new set of parents gave him a different name, but that after learning his full "history" he chose to go back to "Laszlo". I think it rather likelier that he has simply managed to not die, through one means or another, but there is no definitive textev. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx Opening night--the night before the play is ready to open. [Seen on a Nancy Button, http://www.nancybuttons.com/] From alexx at TheWorld.com Wed Aug 13 17:04:02 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:04:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Dumas In-Reply-To: <20030813233813.28723.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> from "Hans Schweitzer" at Aug 13, 2003 04:38:13 PM Message-ID: <200308140004.UAA12176217@shell.TheWorld.com> > >I'm remembering now everyone dying off. > >I speculate now, that everyone will die except Khaavren (who is obviously > >alive in Vlad's time). I guess it won't be so bad if they all get good death > >scenes. And surely they'll be reincarnated. > > Having never read Dumas I am not sure who will die based on that, but I do know that our good friend Tazendra must die at some point (but, it does not seem like she will mind too much, as long as it is a glorious end.) She has been marked for this end ever since she was referred to as Tazendra Lavode. It has been repeatedly stated that in Vlad's time Sethra is the last of the Lavodes. Sethra herself says this in Issola and then goes on to say that there is one more, but he is not ready. (I believe that this person is the lord of castle black, but this is just a guess.) So this would lead me to believe that either Tazendra dies or quits the Lavodes, the first being the more likely. Or this is just another time when there is no historical accuracy. As for being reincarnated I find this doubtful. Tazendra and whoever else shall be slain will most likely go to deathgate falls. (They have certainly served the empire very well and unless Brust acts too much like himself! they will > have grand deaths.) Certain speculations that have passed over this list before involve a death that would result neither in Deathgate nor in reincarnation. I am being vague because I think that they're right, and that it's a huge spoiler. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "If you achieve success, you will get applause. Enjoy it -- but never quite believe it." -- Robert Montgomery From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 18:00:38 2003 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 18:00:38 -0700 Subject: Dumas Message-ID: *snip* >> >Having never read Dumas I am not sure who will die based on that, but I do >know that our good friend Tazendra must die at some point (but, it does not >seem like she will mind too much, as long as it is a glorious end.) She >has been marked for this end ever since she was referred to as Tazendra >Lavode. It has been repeatedly stated that in Vlad's time Sethra is the >last of the Lavodes. Sethra herself says this in Issola and then goes on >to say that there is one more, but he is not ready. (I believe that this >person is the lord of castle black, but this is just a guess.) So this >would lead me to believe that either Tazendra dies or quits the Lavodes, >the first being the more likely. Or this is just another time when there >is no historical accuracy. As for being reincarnated I find this doubtful. > Tazendra and whoever else shall be slain will most likely go to deathgate >falls. (They have certainly served the empire very well and unless Brust >acts too much like himself they will > have grand deaths.) > Remember, in Yendi (I believe), StY is Sethra's "only apprentice who hasn't tried to kill" her. James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From GibelMaria at aol.com Wed Aug 13 19:25:21 2003 From: GibelMaria at aol.com (GibelMaria at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 22:25:21 EDT Subject: Dumas Message-ID: <1cc.f2541ff.2c6c4d11@aol.com> In a message dated 8/13/2003 8:04:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, alexx at TheWorld.com writes: > It has been repeatedly stated that in Vlad's time Sethra is the last of > the Lavodes. Sethra herself says this in Issola and then goes on to say that > there is one more, but he is not ready. (I believe that this person is the > lord of castle black, but this is just a guess.) Ok... "My Wild Theory" here, and I say wild since I am truly a novice having read only Brust and not yet been privileged to reading Dumas ... something I will correct in the VERY near future.? Anyway, here it is: The "Lavode" who's not ready... Why, I believe it might be the Child Catwi is Carrying... We know Sethra has an affinity towards Vlad, damn right sisterly in both the faces we've seen her in... Thief/Undead... The Lavode is not ready because he/she has not yet been born. Gibel From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Wed Aug 13 20:33:27 2003 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 22:33:27 -0500 Subject: Traffic to Deathgate (was: Re: Lord of Castle Black References: <20030813225833.69061.qmail@web13803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3F3B0307.5040507@comcast.net> Hans suggests that only a few persons from the noblest houses go to Deathgate. Yet, Dragaera seems to have no shortage of wars, nor of Dragons to man their armies and die (yes, I know, Teckla are also conscripted.) In Dragon alone, if we extrapolate from the few soldiers that Vlad was close to, there must have been dozens to send to the falls. Then, there are enough Orca to man all the ships, aye, and conduct trade ashore, and some number of them are wealthy and respected enough to go, one would conjecture, to Deathgate. I would imagine most Dzur would. Undoubtedly most Lyorn would. Tiassa. Issola, for it would be the courteous thing to do. Even Jhereg bosses, for it would be the pseudo-respectable and ostentatious thing to do; and that fellow Taltos assures us that they die quite frequently.. If you consider all the duels fought in Paarfi's historical novels, there should, at least at that time, have been a positive highway to serve the travellers. I concede that, after the Interregnum, this may have lapsed with the availability of revivification, but revivification is difficult, expensive, and not always successful. And, there are still wars, and whole platoons of Dragon soldiers. Your humble correspondent remains puzzled. Yr ob't etc. . . From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Wed Aug 13 21:50:26 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 00:50:26 -0400 Subject: Dumas In-Reply-To: <200308140004.UAA12176217@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <200308140004.UAA12176217@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <3F3B1512.8070605@earthlink.net> Alexx S Kay wrote: >>>I'm remembering now everyone dying off. >>>I speculate now, that everyone will die except Khaavren (who is obviously >>>alive in Vlad's time). I guess it won't be so bad if they all get good death >>>scenes. And surely they'll be reincarnated. >>> >>> >> >>Having never read Dumas I am not sure who will die based on that, but I do know that our good friend Tazendra must die at some point (but, it does not seem like she will mind too much, as long as it is a glorious end.) She has been marked for this end ever since she was referred to as Tazendra Lavode. It has been repeatedly stated that in Vlad's time Sethra is the last of the Lavodes. Sethra herself says this in Issola and then goes on to say that there is one more, but he is not ready. (I believe that this person is the lord of castle black, but this is just a guess.) So this would lead me to believe that either Tazendra dies or quits the Lavodes, the first being the more likely. Or this is just another time when there is no historical accuracy. As for being reincarnated I find this doubtful. Tazendra and whoever else shall be slain will most likely go to deathgate falls. (They have certainly served the empire very well and unless Brust acts too much like himself! >> >> > they will > > >> have grand deaths.) >> >> > >Certain speculations that have passed over this list before involve a >death that would result neither in Deathgate nor in reincarnation. I >am being vague because I think that they're right, and that it's a huge >spoiler. > > Wouldn't these speculations be now moot, seeing as a certain Dragon has already linked to the appropriate object? Jose -- Jose Marquez \ Give me ambiguity jhereg69 at earthlink.net \ or give me something http://home.earthlink.net/~jhereg69 \ else... From hans117 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 22:41:07 2003 From: hans117 at yahoo.com (Hans Schweitzer) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 22:41:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dumas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030814054107.60016.qmail@web13808.mail.yahoo.com> *snip* >Having never read Dumas I am not sure who will die based on that, but I do >know that our good friend Tazendra must die at some point (but, it does not >seem like she will mind too much, as long as it is a glorious end.) She >has been marked for this end ever since she was referred to as Tazendra >Lavode. It has been repeatedly stated that in Vlad's time Sethra is the >last of the Lavodes. Sethra herself says this in Issola and then goes on >to say that there is one more, but he is not ready. (I believe that this >person is the lord of castle black, but this is just a guess.) So this >would lead me to believe that either Tazendra dies or quits the Lavodes, >the first being the more likely. Or this is just another time when there >is no historical accuracy. As for being reincarnated I find this doubtful. > Tazendra and whoever else shall be slain will most likely go to deathgate >falls. (They have certainly served the empire very well and unless Brust >acts too much like himself they will > have grand deaths.) > >Remember, in Yendi (I believe), StY is Sethra's "only apprentice who hasn't >tried to kill" her. I don't believe that Tazendra will die at the hands of Sethra. (If that?s what you are implying, otherwise ignore the rest of this rant) Tazendra is not technically nor has she ever been Sethra's apprentice if I interpreted the situation correctly. Even in LOCB sethra the younger is referred to as Sethra's apprentice and if Tazendra were also her apprentice then that would leave me to believe that it would be noted. It would seem that if this occurred there would be a rivalry and at the very least P. would mention it to point out that there was no such rivalry. I believe that being a Lavode is not the same as being an apprentice. In FHYA there were many lavodes, and I believe, at least at one point, that Sethra was not the leader of them. >Actually, it's possible she survives, and simply quits being a LaVode. >BTW, can you set your line length? That's very hard to read. Thanks! I usually chose not to defend myself; instead attempting to initially explain my position as much as it is reasonable, and let my words defend themselves, but since I was writing on this thread anyway... If you read the opinion that I submitted, and you quoted, you shall see that I have underlined a sentence where I admitted to this possibility. Perhaps it was hard to read because of the problem with my line length (a problem that I was not aware of and am glad you brought to my attention. I am using yahoo and am not aware of how to set the line length, if anyone would care to enlighten me on this subject, I shall have the problem promptly solved.) so you missed it. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software From hans117 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 00:08:13 2003 From: hans117 at yahoo.com (Hans Schweitzer) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 00:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Traffic to Deathgate (was: Re: Lord of Castle Black In-Reply-To: <3F3B0307.5040507@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20030814070813.39831.qmail@web13803.mail.yahoo.com> >Hans suggests that only a few persons from the noblest houses go to >Deathgate. Yet, Dragaera seems to have no shortage of wars, nor of >Dragons to man their armies and die (yes, I know, Teckla are also >conscripted.) In Dragon alone, if we extrapolate from the few soldiers >that Vlad was close to, there must have been dozens to send to the falls. > >Then, there are enough Orca to man all the ships, aye, and conduct trade >ashore, and some number of them are wealthy and respected enough to go, >one would conjecture, to Deathgate. I would imagine most Dzur would. >Undoubtedly most Lyorn would. Tiassa. Issola, for it would be the >courteous thing to do. Even Jhereg bosses, for it would be the >pseudo-respectable and ostentatious thing to do; and that fellow Taltos >assures us that they die quite frequently.. >If you consider all the duels fought in Paarfi's historical novels, >there should, at least at that time, have been a positive highway to >serve the travellers. I concede that, after the Interregnum, this may >have lapsed with the availability of revivification, but revivification >is difficult, expensive, and not always successful. And, there are >still wars, and whole platoons of Dragon soldiers. It seems that I must once again defend my writing. I am aware of the great numbers of dragon dead through wars, but I thought that the explanation I am about to provide was unnecessary. If you study warfare (esp. those fought hundreds of years ago), you will note that during most of a war, no battles take place. Casualties (in real life most from disease, but in the Vlad era soldiers would not die from illness because of sorcery.) would only occur when these battles occurred. For obvious reasons the bodies could only be shipped away during a break in the hostilities. You should now see that the number of casualties is not at all important for my purpose, which is to explain why Vlad met no one on his quest to deathgate. If I must explain this to you it is thus. Although a great number of bodies would be shipped they would all be sent at the same time. This can be seen at the end of Dragon. So Vlad did not meet a bunch of wagons of dead because he was not there after a battle. The issue of dragons dieing in war rather then being a problem is a solution to the amount of traffic to deathgate. If you believe that everyone must die then having them die in large groups reduces the number of shipments to deathgate. The Dzur would also die in these battles, and would indeed be required to by their house to earn deathgate. As for the other houses I believe you are assuming too much. Consider the house of the Lyorn. In the Vladiad most of Lyorns encountered are clerks in the Hall of Records (or whatever.) I'm not implying that most of them are clerks, just pointing out that not all Lyorns would go to deathgate. I would imagine that, very few would. Lyorn has so many codes of honor and traditions it would be hard to qualify. Same probably goes to Issola. Not all Tiassa would be worthy. K. was very poor and that?s why he joined the guard. As you stated, most orca are seamen. There are no plans made for the issola that dies. The fact that it would be pointless is not important because it is obviously done anyway as seen from dragon. Jhereg bosses would be sent over the falls, but I believe that the highest ones stay in their positions for a while. Only the toughest could survive the climb. (The Demon and the number 1 having been in the high council for a while) The lower Jhereg die more frequently. Besides Jhereg aren't that in to sentimental things and non-work (in both meanings) related traditions. As for the expense of revification, if they can't afford it, they probably aren't going to deathgate. It would appear that the majority of each house don't go to deathgate. This is even considering that 16 of the houses are noble. If you don't pay close attention you might forget that the people that have been the focus of both series, that is powerful figures, are not that common. Every time a tavern is mentioned the majority of people in it are ignored. A last reason for the low traffic to deathgate. Adron. The great people that would be dying when Vlad made his trip, died instead in the disaster and the years that followed. Let me finally state 3 things. I am aware that some members of each house go to deathgate. Deathgate must be "earned", by deeds or high birth. Everyone should now see why I don't like defending my writing. If I write, I write too much. I hope that clears things up. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Aug 14 02:57:29 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 02:57:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Paresh and "Arylle" In-Reply-To: <200308132356.TAA12375268@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <200308132356.TAA12375268@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: For what it's worth, I find Paresh's account highly implausible, and the identification with T/A even more so. That P would have solitary unfettered access for so long to a library, especially if that's Tazendra's library (surely Khaavren would have overseen the disbursal of the estate even if everybody else is dead), seems unlikely. That a Lyorn would (deign to) attack him with sorcery seems further unlikely. That a Lyorn would physically show up in person to find someone (especially post-interregnum, when he could use the Orb to phone ahead, or have a servant phone ahead) I consider absolutely impossible. Ridiculous, in fact. And almost impossible to reconcile with any other House but perhaps the Dzur - which would make the rest of the story ludicrous. That P would escape unpursued and unexecuted still more unlikely (I think the nobles would restrict access to such power and go to some trouble to track him down - say, call up all his chattels and have them grab any odd Tecklas they see - or use some sorcerous tracking method. Though presumably P could teleport after a year's concentrated study - well, there's an arms race in assumptions which I assert the superior sorcerer Arylle would win.) It's possible that Aerich doesn't make it out of the Viscountiad and Arylle is not a Lyorn and that Paresh and Vlad are accurate in their account and I'm entirely deluded, but I think this story is most likely just evidence of SKZB's early thoughts about the Paarfi romances and most consistently explained as P trying to impress a credulous weirded-out Vlad with a well- (or actually in my view not at all well-)polished lie. On Wed, 13 Aug 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > I don't see Aerich dying off--I am in the process of reading _Teckla_ and > > Paresh, a Teckla, is recounting his history to Vlad--he mentions Aerich, or > > at least, the Duke of Arylle, coming to the door and asking for his Master, > > presumably about why he wasn't receiving his tribute/tithe whatever. (Cause > > of a massive fire that killed everyone but Paresh). It was interesting to > > see how the character changes when it's not Paarfi recounting the history. > > But then, Paresh is Dragaeran, and so the story he tells might well have > > been before the Duke of Arylle is presumably killed in _Sethra_. > > Paresh's story doesn't actually bode well for our Aerich. Quoting my > timeline again: > > ??? PI > [Miscellaneous events that aren't exactly dated, but are Post-Interregnum > and Pre-Vlad.] > > Paresh grows up in a Dzurlord's home (Tk 27). > At 60, Paresh gets land (Tk 28). > At 80, Paresh's loans are paid off (Tk 28). > At 81, Paresh's home burns down (Tk 28-29). [This implies subtly that > his master is Tazendra, who has some history of exploding experiments (FH > 52, 434-435). Her literary model, Porthos, was also noted for his > extensive (if largely unread) library.] > Paresh spends "most of a year" learning sorcery (Tk 30). > Paresh fights Aerich's son(?) (Tk 31-32). [Paresh was almost certainly > born after the Interregnum, since sorcery figures highly in his biography, > and he makes no mention of any interruption of it. He battles "The Duke > of Arylle", who is "about my age" (in Dragaaeran terms, quite a young man). > We can infer that Aerich has either died or retired. His literary model, > Athos, died and left his estate to an adopted son in _The Man in the Iron > Mask_. The Duke refers to Paresh's master as "him", but this is probably > a mistranslation of the genderless Dragaeran pronoun on Brust's part (it > being unlikely that Aerich's heir would be either misinformed or rude).] > > Alexx > > Alexx Kay > Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers > alexx at world.std.com > http://world.std.com/~alexx > My commitment is to truth, not consistency. > [Seen on a Nancy Button, http://www.nancybuttons.com/] > From nadilday at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 06:42:01 2003 From: nadilday at yahoo.com (Nathan Dilday) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 06:42:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dumas In-Reply-To: <8ajljv4n0kmkdmmsqvqonc47isr1bgh76p@4ax.com> Message-ID: <20030814134201.33752.qmail@web12704.mail.yahoo.com> --- lazarus wrote: > On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:38:13 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: > > >>I'm remembering now everyone dying off. > >>I speculate now, that everyone will die except > Khaavren (who is obviously > >>alive in Vlad's time). I guess it won't be so bad > if they all get good death > >>scenes. And surely they'll be reincarnated. > > > > > >Having never read Dumas I am not sure who will die > based on that, but I do know that our good friend > Tazendra must die at some point (but, it does not > seem like she will mind too much, as long as it is a > glorious end.) She has been marked for this end > ever since she was referred to as Tazendra Lavode. > It has been repeatedly stated that in Vlad's time > Sethra is the last of the Lavodes. Sethra herself > says this in Issola and then goes on to say that > there is one more, but he is not ready. (I believe > that this person is the lord of castle black, but > this is just a guess.) So this would lead me to > believe that either Tazendra dies or quits the > Lavodes, the first being the more likely. Or this > is just another time when there is no historical > accuracy. As for being reincarnated I find this > doubtful. Tazendra and whoever else shall be slain > will most likely go to deathgate falls. (They have > certainly served the empire very well and unless > Brust acts too much like himself they will > > have grand deaths.) > > > > > > Actually, it's possible she survives, and simply > quits being a LaVode. > Doesn't the Dragaeran language uses gender-indefinite pronouns? Doesn't that means it's completely possible Vlad assumed Sethra was referring to a male, when she was referring to Tazendra? We don't know how long Sethra feels someone must be a Lavode before they're *ready* for what she wants them for. Be Seeing You, Nathan __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From dr.elmo at whiterose.org Thu Aug 14 07:14:54 2003 From: dr.elmo at whiterose.org (Greg Morrow) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:14:54 -0500 Subject: Sethra and connections (spoilery for Agyar / TRiH) In-Reply-To: <200308132353.TAA12229619@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <001d01c36177$be574a20$0101a8c0@markspc> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030814090403.021eb5c8@mail.whiterose.org> Alexx S Kay wondered aloud: > Are the cat-centaurs native? No. They were imported from Toril (and, probably, originally from Oerth), where they were called "wemics". MoF, MMII (1st). From alexx at TheWorld.com Thu Aug 14 13:06:00 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 16:06:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Traffic to Deathgate (was: Re: Lord of Castle Black In-Reply-To: <3F3B0307.5040507@comcast.net> from "Mia McDavid" at Aug 13, 2003 10:33:27 PM Message-ID: <200308142006.QAA12485338@shell.TheWorld.com> Regardless of the frequency of traffic, it does seem odd to me that there are no roads, post stations, or villages with inns for the majority of the last leg of the jounrey to Deathgate. Presumably, there must be some strong taboo against establishing any such institutions. Is it that people don't want to appear to be profiteering >from others' losses? Or that no one wants to live within N hundred miles of the place? Enforced by the gods? Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is to try to please everyone." -- Bill Cosby From alexx at TheWorld.com Thu Aug 14 13:11:33 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 16:11:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas) In-Reply-To: <3F3B1512.8070605@earthlink.net> from "Jose Marquez" at Aug 14, 2003 12:50:26 AM Message-ID: <200308142011.QAA12298134@shell.TheWorld.com> > > Alexx S Kay wrote: > Spoiler space, so I can stop talking around possible future spoiles. > >Certain speculations that have passed over this list before involve a=20 > >death that would result neither in Deathgate nor in reincarnation. I > >am being vague because I think that they're right, and that it's a huge > >spoiler. > > > Wouldn't these speculations be now moot, seeing as a certain Dragon has=20 > already linked to the appropriate object? Morrolan has a big Morganti weapon he refers to as his "black wand" (note the lack of capitalization), and which none of the better-informed people in his retinue have yet referred to as a Great Weapon. Remember, in _Issola_, how a powerful Morganti blade only became a GW when combined with a human soul? I believe that we'll be seeing a similar scene at some point in _Sethra Lavode_. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "The further I explore these ideas, however, the more it seems to become apparent that concepts like "good" or "evil" mean absolutely nothing above a certain fundamental human level." -- Alan Moore in correspondence with Dave Sim about _From Hell_ From alexx at TheWorld.com Thu Aug 14 13:14:03 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 16:14:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sethra and connections (spoilery for Agyar / TRiH) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030814090403.021eb5c8@mail.whiterose.org> from "Greg Morrow" at Aug 14, 2003 09:14:54 AM Message-ID: <200308142014.QAA12441212@shell.TheWorld.com> > > Alexx S Kay wondered aloud: > > Are the cat-centaurs native? > > No. They were imported from Toril (and, probably, originally from Oerth), > where they were called "wemics". MoF, MMII (1st). I'm presuming you're speaking from knowledge of the ur-source gaming world? I'd be interested in more details. OTOH, details from that source are non-canonical until/unless confirmed by actual textev. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "She had features which could only be described as optional." -- Richh From TimN at rcn.com Thu Aug 14 14:12:54 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:12:54 -0400 Subject: Sethra and connections (spoilery for Agyar / TRiH) References: <200308142014.QAA12441212@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <001401c362a8$d71c74e0$d916fea9@ananda> Oddly enough, I can picture Noish-Pa as Elminster. I must be going senile. From dr.elmo at whiterose.org Thu Aug 14 14:26:24 2003 From: dr.elmo at whiterose.org (Greg Morrow) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 16:26:24 -0500 Subject: Sethra and connections (spoilery for Agyar / TRiH) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030814162616.02459a88@mail.whiterose.org> Alexx S Kay wondered aloud: >> No. They were imported from Toril (and, probably, originally from Oerth), >> where they were called "wemics". MoF, MMII (1st). > >I'm presuming you're speaking from knowledge of the ur-source gaming >world? I'd be interested in more details. OTOH, details from that >source are non-canonical until/unless confirmed by actual textev. In, oh, 1981 or thereabouts, TSR introduced a line of AD&D (Advanced Dungeons & Dragons) trading cards. One of the selling points was that the trading cards were the first appearance of a couple of monsters--the hybsil, a sort of deer-centaur, and the wemic, a sort of lion-centaur. Wemics were plain-dwelling hunters, as you'd expect. In game terms, they were a fair bit tougher than centaurs, but not as tough as, say, trolls. The wemic was included in the first edition AD&D Monster Manual II (1983), and adapted to subsequent versions of the game in the 2nd edition Monstrous Manual and the 3rd Edition Monsters of Faerun. At the time of 1st edition AD&D, the default game setting was the world of Greyhawk, taking place on a planet called "Oerth". It is thus presumed, although I don't have any direct evidence, that wemics were native to Greyhawk, along with generic AD&D critters like centaurs, bugbears, and so on, and critters that became more specifically associated with Oerth, like norkers. At the time of 2nd edition AD&D, the default game setting had more or less become the Forgotten Realms, taking place on the continent of "Faerun" on a planet called "Toril". The first textev that I have for a specific association of wemics with Toril is that they appeared in the Forgotten Realms Monstrous Compendium (1991) prior to being collected in the Monstrous Manual. It was later reiterated that they were being identified specifically with Toril when they appeared in the 3rd edition Monsters of Faerun. So, that's their history in AD&D. Much of the Taltos books can be read through an AD&D lens--Vlad is clearly an assassin, a character class in 1st edition AD&D, for example. Dragaerans are elves that are Tolkienesque in height, but are otherwise 1st ed. AD&D elves, with 2,000 year lifespans (not immortal), and (in Jhereg particularly), being multiclassed fighter/magic-users. Discussions of revivification are exactly what I'd expect from an SF-y writer asking the question "what if 'raise dead' spells were common?" So when I read Morrolan and Vlad encountering cat-centaurs on the way to Deathgate, I see an adventuring party encountering a pack of wemics. That sequence, including getting the token for the god and then the following encounter with the giant jhereg, reads to me like someone remembering the gaming session where their characters journeyed to Deathgate. It is true that there is not much textev in Taltos for this equation. Wemics are reasonably fast, but not especially so, and cat-centaurs are notably fast. Cat-centaurs males aren't said to be maned, as I recall, but that's the sort of detail you might suppress if you were throwing some camo on their origin. Similarly, calling them "cat-centaurs" when you've invented names like dzur, tiassa, and athyra is curious, unless you're used to calling them something else that you can't use. So that's what I got. Not a lot from textev, really. But jumping from "Steven Brust is a gamer" to "cat-centaurs are wemics" is pretty straightforward, and virtually inevitable if he was a 1st edition AD&D gamer. -- "Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God."--Jefferson mailto:Dr.Elmo at whiterose.org http://www.whiterose.org/dr.elmo/blog/ From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Thu Aug 14 18:11:55 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:11:55 -0400 Subject: Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ and ISSOLA (was Re: Dumas) In-Reply-To: <200308142011.QAA12298134@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <200308142011.QAA12298134@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <3F3C335B.8010305@earthlink.net> Alexx S Kay wrote: >>Alexx S Kay wrote: >> >> >> > >Spoiler space, so I can stop talking around possible future spoilers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>Certain speculations that have passed over this list before involve a=20 >>>death that would result neither in Deathgate nor in reincarnation. I >>>am being vague because I think that they're right, and that it's a huge >>>spoiler. >>> >>> >>> >>Wouldn't these speculations be now moot, seeing as a certain Dragon has=20 >>already linked to the appropriate object? >> >> > >Morrolan has a big Morganti weapon he refers to as his "black wand" >(note the lack of capitalization), and which none of the better-informed >people in his retinue have yet referred to as a Great Weapon. > >Remember, in _Issola_, how a powerful Morganti blade only became a GW >when combined with a human soul? I believe that we'll be seeing a >similar scene at some point in _Sethra Lavode_. > > Hmm. When you put it that way, I'm almost convinced. Perhaps it was precipitous of me to assume that what Morrolan receives was an Official Great Weapon (tm). Still, I have a feeling that what happened with Godslayer was unique to that particular weapon. Great Weapons were meant to be used against the gods, apparently, but the gods have subverted this purpose and thus Great Weapons are used to defend against the Jenoine. With Godslayer being such an overt threat to them, however, it was disassembled. Anyway, when it was reborn, in addition to two souls being present, Spellbreaker was the most important component that was apparently missing. I would venture that Spellbreaker is/was the essence of Godslayer, and that practically any powerful Morganti weapon would do for putting it back together (not to mention just about any soul). From the descriptions of Morganti weapons Vlad has given us in the past, the sword Morrolan currently holds (as described by Paarfi) seems like more than just an extremely powerful, but still standard Morganti weapon. It's possible that Blackwand was also disassembled and requires a soul, but what is the missing component that contains the essence of what the weapon is designed to do? Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Thu Aug 14 18:10:14 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 18:10:14 -0700 Subject: Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ and ISSOLA (was Re: Dumas) In-Reply-To: <3F3C335B.8010305@earthlink.net> References: <200308142011.QAA12298134@shell.TheWorld.com> <3F3C335B.8010305@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:11:55 -0400, you wrote: > >Alexx S Kay wrote: > >>>Alexx S Kay wrote: >>> >>> >>> >> >>Spoiler space, so I can stop talking around possible future spoilers. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>>Certain speculations that have passed over this list before involve a=20 >>>>death that would result neither in Deathgate nor in reincarnation. I >>>>am being vague because I think that they're right, and that it's a huge >>>>spoiler. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Wouldn't these speculations be now moot, seeing as a certain Dragon has=20 >>>already linked to the appropriate object? >>> >>> >> >>Morrolan has a big Morganti weapon he refers to as his "black wand" >>(note the lack of capitalization), and which none of the better-informed >>people in his retinue have yet referred to as a Great Weapon. >> >>Remember, in _Issola_, how a powerful Morganti blade only became a GW >>when combined with a human soul? I believe that we'll be seeing a >>similar scene at some point in _Sethra Lavode_. >> >> >Hmm. When you put it that way, I'm almost convinced. Perhaps it was >precipitous of me to assume that what Morrolan receives was an Official >Great Weapon (tm). Still, I have a feeling that what happened with >Godslayer was unique to that particular weapon. Great Weapons were meant >to be used against the gods, apparently, but the gods have subverted >this purpose and thus Great Weapons are used to defend against the >Jenoine. With Godslayer being such an overt threat to them, however, it >was disassembled. Anyway, when it was reborn, in addition to two souls >being present, Spellbreaker was the most important component that was >apparently missing. I would venture that Spellbreaker is/was the essence >of Godslayer, and that practically any powerful Morganti weapon would do >for putting it back together (not to mention just about any soul). From >the descriptions of Morganti weapons Vlad has given us in the past, the >sword Morrolan currently holds (as described by Paarfi) seems like more >than just an extremely powerful, but still standard Morganti weapon. >It's possible that Blackwand was also disassembled and requires a soul, >but what is the missing component that contains the essence of what the >weapon is designed to do? > >Jose Possibly control? Morrolan has stated that Blackwand is his familiar, and will also do what he wants with souls that it takes. A regular Morganti, no matter how powerful, doesn't have the same ability to be controlled that we know of. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From alexx at TheWorld.com Thu Aug 14 19:12:22 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:12:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ and ISSOLA (was Re: Dumas) In-Reply-To: <3F3C335B.8010305@earthlink.net> from "Jose Marquez" at Aug 14, 2003 09:11:55 PM Message-ID: <200308150212.WAA12433938@shell.TheWorld.com> > >>Alexx S Kay wrote: > >> > >> > >> > > > >Spoiler space, so I can stop talking around possible future spoilers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>Certain speculations that have passed over this list before involve a=20 > >>>death that would result neither in Deathgate nor in reincarnation. I > >>>am being vague because I think that they're right, and that it's a huge > >>>spoiler. > >>> > >>Wouldn't these speculations be now moot, seeing as a certain Dragon has=20 > >>already linked to the appropriate object? > > > >Morrolan has a big Morganti weapon he refers to as his "black wand" > >(note the lack of capitalization), and which none of the better-informed > >people in his retinue have yet referred to as a Great Weapon. > > > >Remember, in _Issola_, how a powerful Morganti blade only became a GW > >when combined with a human soul? I believe that we'll be seeing a > >similar scene at some point in _Sethra Lavode_. > > > Hmm. When you put it that way, I'm almost convinced. [snip arguments against] I'll grant that my case is not ironclad, but it should be settled one way or another in the next book, I expect. I wonder if, in the next book, we will get to see the first meeting between Morollan and the unnamed Serioli from _Dragon_ -- who, incidentally, appears to be an expert on the subject of Great Weapons... Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx Forewarned is half an octopus. [Seen on a Nancy Button, http://www.nancybuttons.com/] From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Thu Aug 14 20:50:21 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:50:21 -0400 Subject: Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ and ISSOLA (was Re: Dumas) In-Reply-To: References: <200308142011.QAA12298134@shell.TheWorld.com> <3F3C335B.8010305@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3F3C587D.90406@earthlink.net> lazarus wrote: >On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:11:55 -0400, you wrote: > > > >>Alexx S Kay wrote: >> >> >> >>>>Alexx S Kay wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Spoiler space, so I can stop talking around possible future spoilers. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>Certain speculations that have passed over this list before involve a=20 >>>>>death that would result neither in Deathgate nor in reincarnation. I >>>>>am being vague because I think that they're right, and that it's a huge >>>>>spoiler. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Wouldn't these speculations be now moot, seeing as a certain Dragon has=20 >>>>already linked to the appropriate object? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Morrolan has a big Morganti weapon he refers to as his "black wand" >>>(note the lack of capitalization), and which none of the better-informed >>>people in his retinue have yet referred to as a Great Weapon. >>> >>>Remember, in _Issola_, how a powerful Morganti blade only became a GW >>>when combined with a human soul? I believe that we'll be seeing a >>>similar scene at some point in _Sethra Lavode_. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Hmm. When you put it that way, I'm almost convinced. Perhaps it was >>precipitous of me to assume that what Morrolan receives was an Official >>Great Weapon (tm). Still, I have a feeling that what happened with >>Godslayer was unique to that particular weapon. Great Weapons were meant >>to be used against the gods, apparently, but the gods have subverted >>this purpose and thus Great Weapons are used to defend against the >>Jenoine. With Godslayer being such an overt threat to them, however, it >>was disassembled. Anyway, when it was reborn, in addition to two souls >>being present, Spellbreaker was the most important component that was >>apparently missing. I would venture that Spellbreaker is/was the essence >>of Godslayer, and that practically any powerful Morganti weapon would do >>for putting it back together (not to mention just about any soul). From >>the descriptions of Morganti weapons Vlad has given us in the past, the >>sword Morrolan currently holds (as described by Paarfi) seems like more >>than just an extremely powerful, but still standard Morganti weapon. >>It's possible that Blackwand was also disassembled and requires a soul, >>but what is the missing component that contains the essence of what the >>weapon is designed to do? >> >>Jose >> >> > >Possibly control? Morrolan has stated that Blackwand is his familiar, >and will also do what he wants with souls that it takes. A regular >Morganti, no matter how powerful, doesn't have the same ability to be >controlled that we know of. > I was thinking more of a physical component, like Spellbreaker. Spellbreaker is good at negating magical energy, and when melded with a semi-sentient cutting tool and a pinch of soul added, you get a weapon that negates a god's (or a Jenoine's) magical protection and thus can easily kill said being. Spellbreaker also demonstrated semi-sentient properties, healing Vlad (protecting its owner) and coiling up and sorta threatening Verra (its Godslaying aspect). But so far, I haven't noticed any similar objects in Morrolan's possession. From what I could tell, although nobody said it was a Great Weapon or named it properly as Blackwand, it still seems the complete and fearsome artifact we see in the Vlad books. But as Alexx says, we'll (probably) find out in Sethra Lavode whether it is complete or is missing something. Jose -- Jose Marquez \ Cthulhu 2004 jhereg69 at earthlink.net \ Why vote for http://home.earthlink.net/~jhereg69 \ the lesser evil? From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Aug 14 21:42:45 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:42:45 -0500 Subject: Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ and ISSOLA (was Re: Dumas) In-Reply-To: <3F3C587D.90406@earthlink.net> References: <200308142011.QAA12298134@shell.TheWorld.com> <3F3C335B.8010305@earthlink.net> <3F3C587D.90406@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20030815044245.GA783@infodancer.org> On Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 11:50:21PM -0400, Jose Marquez wrote: > > lazarus wrote: > > >On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:11:55 -0400, you wrote: > > > > > > > >>Alexx S Kay wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>>Alexx S Kay wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>Spoiler space, so I can stop talking around possible future spoilers. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>>Certain speculations that have passed over this list before involve > >>>>>a=20 > >>>>>death that would result neither in Deathgate nor in reincarnation. I > >>>>>am being vague because I think that they're right, and that it's a huge > >>>>>spoiler. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>Wouldn't these speculations be now moot, seeing as a certain Dragon > >>>>has=20 > >>>>already linked to the appropriate object? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>Morrolan has a big Morganti weapon he refers to as his "black wand" > >>>(note the lack of capitalization), and which none of the better-informed > >>>people in his retinue have yet referred to as a Great Weapon. > >>> > >>>Remember, in _Issola_, how a powerful Morganti blade only became a GW > >>>when combined with a human soul? I believe that we'll be seeing a > >>>similar scene at some point in _Sethra Lavode_. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>Hmm. When you put it that way, I'm almost convinced. Perhaps it was > >>precipitous of me to assume that what Morrolan receives was an Official > >>Great Weapon (tm). Still, I have a feeling that what happened with > >>Godslayer was unique to that particular weapon. Great Weapons were meant > >>to be used against the gods, apparently, but the gods have subverted > >>this purpose and thus Great Weapons are used to defend against the > >>Jenoine. With Godslayer being such an overt threat to them, however, it > >>was disassembled. Anyway, when it was reborn, in addition to two souls > >>being present, Spellbreaker was the most important component that was > >>apparently missing. I would venture that Spellbreaker is/was the essence > >>of Godslayer, and that practically any powerful Morganti weapon would do > >>for putting it back together (not to mention just about any soul). From > >>the descriptions of Morganti weapons Vlad has given us in the past, the > >>sword Morrolan currently holds (as described by Paarfi) seems like more > >>than just an extremely powerful, but still standard Morganti weapon. > >>It's possible that Blackwand was also disassembled and requires a soul, > >>but what is the missing component that contains the essence of what the > >>weapon is designed to do? > >> > >>Jose > >> > >> > > > >Possibly control? Morrolan has stated that Blackwand is his familiar, > >and will also do what he wants with souls that it takes. A regular > >Morganti, no matter how powerful, doesn't have the same ability to be > >controlled that we know of. > I was thinking more of a physical component, like Spellbreaker. > Spellbreaker is good at negating magical energy, and when melded with a > semi-sentient cutting tool and a pinch of soul added, you get a weapon > that negates a god's (or a Jenoine's) magical protection and thus can > easily kill said being. Spellbreaker also demonstrated semi-sentient > properties, healing Vlad (protecting its owner) and coiling up and sorta > threatening Verra (its Godslaying aspect). Granted. > But so far, I haven't noticed > any similar objects in Morrolan's possession. There's no need for such objects to apply to a Great Weapon that hasn't been, like Godslayer, broken into pieces. We don't know if Blackwand was broken as Godslayer was (certainly, by Vlad's time it would be ancient history and Vlad would have no idea even to ask about it). We do know, however, that Morrolan's acquisition of it has been prophesied at least three times -- Morrolan's dreams and Sethra. "Here's a sword" strikes me as a horribly offhand way to fulfill such a heavily-prophesied event. Especially since the experience was from a pseudo-Morrolan point of view, and he didn't mention anything even remotely like what Vlad described. > From what I could tell, although nobody said it was a Great > Weapon or named it properly as Blackwand, it still seems the > complete and fearsome artifact we see in the Vlad books. It hasn't shot bolts of sorcery at anybody. Morrolan hasn't noted any special personality aspects. He calls it his "black wand" -- note two words, no capitals. It's described properties so far have been entirely consistent with a very strong Morganti sword, nothing more. I will note for the record that despite a certain degree of disappointment (and hopeful anticipation) concerning this aspect of _Lord of Castle Black_, I did think the "everyone takes two quick steps back" scene was Cool. > But > as Alexx says, we'll (probably) find out in Sethra Lavode > whether it is complete or is missing something. True. I personally support the oft-hinted-at speculation relating to one of our intrepid companions. I think AT THE LEAST we'll see the sword "wake up" during that last volume, as Sethra hinted to Vlad regarding his own new toy. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Fri Aug 15 09:49:45 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 12:49:45 -0400 Subject: Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ and ISSOLA (was Re: Dumas) In-Reply-To: <20030815044245.GA783@infodancer.org> References: <200308142011.QAA12298134@shell.TheWorld.com> <3F3C335B.8010305@earthlink.net> <3F3C587D.90406@earthlink.net> <20030815044245.GA783@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <3F3D0F29.4010000@earthlink.net> Matthew Hunter wrote: >On Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 11:50:21PM -0400, Jose Marquez wrote: > > >>lazarus wrote: >> >> >> >>>On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:11:55 -0400, you wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Alexx S Kay wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>Alexx S Kay wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>Spoiler space, so I can stop talking around possible future spoilers. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>Certain speculations that have passed over this list before involve >>>>>>>a=20 >>>>>>>death that would result neither in Deathgate nor in reincarnation. I >>>>>>>am being vague because I think that they're right, and that it's a huge >>>>>>>spoiler. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>Wouldn't these speculations be now moot, seeing as a certain Dragon >>>>>>has=20 >>>>>>already linked to the appropriate object? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>Morrolan has a big Morganti weapon he refers to as his "black wand" >>>>>(note the lack of capitalization), and which none of the better-informed >>>>>people in his retinue have yet referred to as a Great Weapon. >>>>> >>>>>Remember, in _Issola_, how a powerful Morganti blade only became a GW >>>>>when combined with a human soul? I believe that we'll be seeing a >>>>>similar scene at some point in _Sethra Lavode_. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Hmm. When you put it that way, I'm almost convinced. Perhaps it was >>>>precipitous of me to assume that what Morrolan receives was an Official >>>>Great Weapon (tm). Still, I have a feeling that what happened with >>>>Godslayer was unique to that particular weapon. Great Weapons were meant >>>>to be used against the gods, apparently, but the gods have subverted >>>>this purpose and thus Great Weapons are used to defend against the >>>>Jenoine. With Godslayer being such an overt threat to them, however, it >>>>was disassembled. Anyway, when it was reborn, in addition to two souls >>>>being present, Spellbreaker was the most important component that was >>>>apparently missing. I would venture that Spellbreaker is/was the essence >>>>of Godslayer, and that practically any powerful Morganti weapon would do >>>>for putting it back together (not to mention just about any soul). From >>>>the descriptions of Morganti weapons Vlad has given us in the past, the >>>>sword Morrolan currently holds (as described by Paarfi) seems like more >>>>than just an extremely powerful, but still standard Morganti weapon. >>>>It's possible that Blackwand was also disassembled and requires a soul, >>>>but what is the missing component that contains the essence of what the >>>>weapon is designed to do? >>>> >>>>Jose >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Possibly control? Morrolan has stated that Blackwand is his familiar, >>>and will also do what he wants with souls that it takes. A regular >>>Morganti, no matter how powerful, doesn't have the same ability to be >>>controlled that we know of. >>> >>> >>I was thinking more of a physical component, like Spellbreaker. >>Spellbreaker is good at negating magical energy, and when melded with a >>semi-sentient cutting tool and a pinch of soul added, you get a weapon >>that negates a god's (or a Jenoine's) magical protection and thus can >>easily kill said being. Spellbreaker also demonstrated semi-sentient >>properties, healing Vlad (protecting its owner) and coiling up and sorta >>threatening Verra (its Godslaying aspect). >> >> > >Granted. > > >>But so far, I haven't noticed >>any similar objects in Morrolan's possession. >> >> > >There's no need for such objects to apply to a Great Weapon that >hasn't been, like Godslayer, broken into pieces. We don't know >if Blackwand was broken as Godslayer was (certainly, by Vlad's >time it would be ancient history and Vlad would have no idea even >to ask about it). > >We do know, however, that Morrolan's acquisition of it has been >prophesied at least three times -- Morrolan's dreams and Sethra. >"Here's a sword" strikes me as a horribly offhand way to fulfill >such a heavily-prophesied event. Especially since the experience >was from a pseudo-Morrolan point of view, and he didn't mention >anything even remotely like what Vlad described. > > I don't know.... "Here's a sword" is infinitely more impressive when it comes from the Enchantress of Dzur Mountain. And I loved seeing Sethra trying to intimidate Morrolan and failing, all because he didn't know who she was. I think I just really enjoy the irony of the prophecies and dreams culminating in "Here's a sword." It makes me laugh. >>From what I could tell, although nobody said it was a Great >>Weapon or named it properly as Blackwand, it still seems the >>complete and fearsome artifact we see in the Vlad books. >> >> > >It hasn't shot bolts of sorcery at anybody. Morrolan hasn't >noted any special personality aspects. He calls it his "black >wand" -- note two words, no capitals. It's described properties >so far have been entirely consistent with a very strong Morganti >sword, nothing more. > >I will note for the record that despite a certain degree of >disappointment (and hopeful anticipation) concerning this aspect >of _Lord of Castle Black_, I did think the "everyone takes two >quick steps back" scene was Cool. > > > >>But >>as Alexx says, we'll (probably) find out in Sethra Lavode >>whether it is complete or is missing something. >> >> > >True. I personally support the oft-hinted-at speculation >relating to one of our intrepid companions. > >I think AT THE LEAST we'll see the sword "wake up" during that >last volume, as Sethra hinted to Vlad regarding his own new toy. > > I agree with you on seeing Blackwand wake up, although it's possible we won't get to see it if Paarfi doesn't know about it and Morrolan doesn't mention it to anyone. Jose -- Jose Marquez \ Cthulhu 2004 jhereg69 at earthlink.net \ Why vote for http://home.earthlink.net/~jhereg69 \ the lesser evil? From greyw01f at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 11:47:11 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 18:47:11 +0000 Subject: Interesting points in _Phoenix_ Message-ID: For relevent information to future plot devices, see _Phoenix_ 111. It will be interesting to see how Steve pulls these threads into the storylines of future novels. I certainly would like to see each and every one of them. :) Next, more related to recent topics, is the comment by Verra about the original discoverers of this world: Vlad: "The Jenoine?" Verra: "Before the Jenoine." This can be found on _Phoenix_ 117. Further comments by Verra indicate that the culture that discovered the world brought ideas with them, that were recorded when they should have been left to crumble into history. These ideas obviously include that of democracy, which is Padraic Kelly's cause throughout the Vladiad. But it makes it interesting--could the original discoverers of Dragaera been a space-exploring race of mankind, (I use the word to avoid yet ANOTHER meaning for humanity) There are certainly a great deal of indications that this might be the case (obviously, since Steve isn't an alien, and therefore his writing style is human) Anyway. Just some food for thought. Dig in. Jon
 
_________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Fri Aug 15 12:26:13 2003 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 14:26:13 -0500 Subject: Taltos: Inconsistencies and imponderables. Message-ID: <3F3D33D4.9030509@comcast.net> Too tired to write like Paarfi, so writing like that other guy today. OK, everyone else probably knows this, but I didn't, so I thought I'd mention . . . The first time Vlad teleports to Castle Black, he notices the Overcast beneath him, and above, more of the same. OTOH, in Athyra, Rocza is able to fly through the Overcast in one breath. Which she holds. Because it's toxic. Seems to me Morrolan is a smart enough fellow not to fly his castle in the middle of a toxic smog cloud. Also, I remain unsatisfied about teleportation in and around Greymist Valley. Morrolan teleported into the middle of the cat-centaurs' plain. Couldn't he have gotten the closer coordinates from Sethra, instead of walking till he made them out himself? When he *did* teleport to the edge of Blood River it was close enough to the different houses' launch-points that I am willing to concede teleportation to and from launches is possible, though probably difficult, what with corpses, boats, and whatnot. However, it certainly wasn't during the Interregnum--I've already forgotten what it was like in PoTD for Zerika and her party . . . Speaking of which, I *did* catch a major glitch. Morrolan says he had Zerika's back when she jumped Deathgate Falls. PoTD says that he was *not* with her party. Hey, Steve, howsabout you let me see each new manuscript; I'll reread the entire oeuvre and check the 'script for consistency. How 'bout it? Mia From alexx at TheWorld.com Fri Aug 15 17:11:24 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 20:11:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Interesting points in _Phoenix_ In-Reply-To: from "Jon Carey" at Aug 15, 2003 06:47:11 PM Message-ID: <200308160011.UAA12502996@shell.TheWorld.com> > > This can be found on _Phoenix_ 117. Further comments by Verra indicate that > the culture that discovered the world brought ideas with them, that were > recorded when they should have been left to crumble into history. These > ideas obviously include that of democracy, which is Padraic Kelly's cause > throughout the Vladiad. Minor quibble: not democracy, but some form of communism. > But it makes it interesting--could the original discoverers of Dragaera been > a space-exploring race of mankind, (I use the word to avoid yet ANOTHER > meaning for humanity) There are certainly a great deal of indications that > this might be the case (obviously, since Steve isn't an alien, and therefore > his writing style is human) Have you yet read _Issola_? It makes the point rather more clearly on pages 35-36. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "I challenge anyone who went to art college to find out they can become an honest to goodness bonafide priest of Satan with basically a few phone calls, and NOT do it." -- Ty Templeton From alexx at TheWorld.com Fri Aug 15 17:16:00 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 20:16:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Taltos: Inconsistencies and imponderables. In-Reply-To: <3F3D33D4.9030509@comcast.net> from "Mia McDavid" at Aug 15, 2003 02:26:13 PM Message-ID: <200308160016.UAA12640132@shell.TheWorld.com> > > The first time Vlad teleports to Castle Black, he notices the Overcast > beneath him, and above, more of the same. OTOH, in Athyra, Rocza is > able to fly through the Overcast in one breath. Which she holds. > Because it's toxic. Seems to me Morrolan is a smart enough fellow not > to fly his castle in the middle of a toxic smog cloud. Yet travelers in Viscount go though the Enclouding with no ill effects. Hypothesis A) It's toxic to jheeg (small j), but not to any of the species that call themselves human. Hypothesis B) It's only toxic after prolonged exposure. Castle Black is either usually *not* inside it, or has some sot of magical air-filter. > Speaking of which, I *did* catch a major glitch. Morrolan says he had > Zerika's back when she jumped Deathgate Falls. PoTD says that he was > *not* with her party. Someone on the list (sorry that I can't recall who) came up with a good theory some time after volume 1 of Viscount came out. My policy is to not explain it at this point in time, because it could be a major spoiler for the concluding volume, but you can search the list archives if you want. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx Forewarned is half an octopus. [Seen on a Nancy Button, http://www.nancybuttons.com/] From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Fri Aug 15 18:03:23 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 21:03:23 -0400 Subject: Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas) In-Reply-To: <200308142011.QAA12298134@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <3F3B1512.8070605@earthlink.net> <200308142011.QAA12298134@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <20030816010323.GA3841@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> And real spoilers for ISSOLA. On Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 04:11:33PM -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: > Spoiler space, so I can stop talking around possible future spoiles. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Morrolan has a big Morganti weapon he refers to as his "black wand" > (note the lack of capitalization), and which none of the better-informed > people in his retinue have yet referred to as a Great Weapon. > > Remember, in _Issola_, how a powerful Morganti blade only became a GW > when combined with a human soul? I believe that we'll be seeing a > similar scene at some point in _Sethra Lavode_. If I'm reading Alexx correctly, he's saying that the 'black wand' will become a Great Weapon and will bond with Morrolan only when consuming a human soul, possibly combined with some other qualifying event. If so, I must disagree. In ISSOLA we saw an apparently disassebled GW re-assembled. A part of that re-assembly required the use of a human (Dragaeran) soul. I say 'apparently' because some on this list have argued that Godslayer had not existed as a Great Weapon prior to this, but whether it is assembly or re-assembly is not relevant to my point. As a part of that process, a soul was consumed by the Morganti weapon which shortly after became Godslayer. That process also seemed to result in the bonding of Godslayer to Vlad. However, we have seen another case where a GW meets a bonded owner without a soul being sacrificed. When Aliera obtains Pathfinder, no such sacrifice, assembly, or reassembly occurs. Aliera picks up Pathfinder and the bonding seems to be there immediately. To me, this argues both that the capture of a soul is *not* part of the bonding process, but *may* be part of the assembly or re-assembly process. While mulling this over, I did wonder if a GW always moves to the same soul, ie, that one of Alieras earlier incarnations assembled or reassembled Pathfinder. I don't think this is the case, because the person who was holding onto the disguised Pathfinder (there, is that sufficiently obscure so as not to be a spoiler? :-)) was clearly attempting to get his hands on a GW. If the bonding is to the same soul over repeated incarnations, this would have been noticed over time. Thus the seeker would have known from the start that the attempt would have been futile. Steve the Other -- "I don't like being quoted." -- anonymous From davids at kithrup.com Fri Aug 15 19:33:00 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:33:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas) In-Reply-To: <20030816010323.GA3841@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Steve Simmons wrote: >And real spoilers for ISSOLA. > >On Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 04:11:33PM -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: > >> Spoiler space, so I can stop talking around possible future spoiles. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Morrolan has a big Morganti weapon he refers to as his "black wand" >> (note the lack of capitalization), and which none of the better-informed >> people in his retinue have yet referred to as a Great Weapon. >> >> Remember, in _Issola_, how a powerful Morganti blade only became a GW >> when combined with a human soul? I believe that we'll be seeing a >> similar scene at some point in _Sethra Lavode_. > >If I'm reading Alexx correctly, he's saying that the 'black wand' >will become a Great Weapon and will bond with Morrolan only when >consuming a human soul, possibly combined with some other qualifying >event. If so, I must disagree. >As a part of that process, a soul was consumed by the Morganti >weapon which shortly after became Godslayer. That process also >seemed to result in the bonding of Godslayer to Vlad. I am not sure "consuming" is the correct word. Vlad had to go to great and extraordinary lengths in order to ensure that Lady Teldra's soul was *not* consumed. So I think it is important to note that it is not just that Spellbreaker+Morganti blade+Teldra's soul that made Godslayer - it was also Vlad's exertion of... something, maybe witchcraft, maybe a little of everything, that caused the combination to meld properly. Teldra's soul was *bound* to the Morganti weapon+Spellbreaker - she was not *consumed* by it. >However, we have seen another case where a GW meets a bonded owner >without a soul being sacrificed. When Aliera obtains Pathfinder, >no such sacrifice, assembly, or reassembly occurs. Aliera picks up >Pathfinder and the bonding seems to be there immediately. I believe there was a significant event that took place some time before Aliera picked up Pathfinder, which was that the "cloaked" Morganti blade killed Napper. I have speculated elsewhere that the only Morganti blade that was in there was Pathfinder itself; that the feeling that it was a "weak" Morganti blade was caused by Pathfinder being covered with more mundane metal. So in other words, the Morganti blade that took in Napper's soul (I hesitate to say "consumed"; see above) was in fact Pathfinder itself. On the other hand, the feeling that Vlad gets from Pathfinder does not appear to be consistent with what we saw of Napper's personality. So I may well be utterly worng on that count. At least part of the reason that speculation has tended toward Tazendra's soul being bonded with Blackwand, though, is that the fierce, female personality that Vlad senses from that weapon could well be Tazendra, given that she is indeed so much a Dzur. >To me, this argues both that the capture of a soul is *not* part of >the bonding process, but *may* be part of the assembly or re-assembly >process. You may be correct. However, I believe that an alternate model of Great Weapons is that they are created in a "primed" state, where they are fully powerful but not fully sapient, not truly self-aware - until they take their first soul, and then that soul, which binds to the bearer, causes the entire weapon to be a sapient entity in and of itself. That suggests that when Morrolan first receives Blackwand, it has either never been used to kill (that is, never had a soul bound to it), or that the soul that orginally inhabited it eventually evaporated, leaving the weapon in its "primed" state again. Hmm. In Dragon, the Serioli says that Morrolan does not introduce Blackwand because they have already met. Presumably, that was after it (she?) had woken up. From usagigoya at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 21:59:33 2003 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 04:59:33 +0000 Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) Message-ID: >From: David Silberstein >To: Dragaera Mailing List >Subject: Re: Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas) >Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:33:00 -0700 (PDT) > >On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Steve Simmons wrote: > > >And real spoilers for ISSOLA. > > > >On Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 04:11:33PM -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > > >> Spoiler space, so I can stop talking around possible future spoiles. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Morrolan has a big Morganti weapon he refers to as his "black wand" > >> (note the lack of capitalization), and which none of the >better-informed > >> people in his retinue have yet referred to as a Great Weapon. > >> > >> Remember, in _Issola_, how a powerful Morganti blade only became a GW > >> when combined with a human soul? I believe that we'll be seeing a > >> similar scene at some point in _Sethra Lavode_. > > > >If I'm reading Alexx correctly, he's saying that the 'black wand' > >will become a Great Weapon and will bond with Morrolan only when > >consuming a human soul, possibly combined with some other qualifying > >event. If so, I must disagree. > > >As a part of that process, a soul was consumed by the Morganti > >weapon which shortly after became Godslayer. That process also > >seemed to result in the bonding of Godslayer to Vlad. > >I am not sure "consuming" is the correct word. Vlad had to go to >great and extraordinary lengths in order to ensure that Lady Teldra's >soul was *not* consumed. So I think it is important to note that it >is not just that Spellbreaker+Morganti blade+Teldra's soul that made >Godslayer - it was also Vlad's exertion of... something, maybe >witchcraft, maybe a little of everything, that caused the combination >to meld properly. Teldra's soul was *bound* to the Morganti >weapon+Spellbreaker - she was not *consumed* by it. > > >However, we have seen another case where a GW meets a bonded owner > >without a soul being sacrificed. When Aliera obtains Pathfinder, > >no such sacrifice, assembly, or reassembly occurs. Aliera picks up > >Pathfinder and the bonding seems to be there immediately. > >I believe there was a significant event that took place some time >before Aliera picked up Pathfinder, which was that the "cloaked" >Morganti blade killed Napper. > >I have speculated elsewhere that the only Morganti blade that was in >there was Pathfinder itself; that the feeling that it was a "weak" >Morganti blade was caused by Pathfinder being covered with more >mundane metal. So in other words, the Morganti blade that took in >Napper's soul (I hesitate to say "consumed"; see above) was in fact >Pathfinder itself. > >On the other hand, the feeling that Vlad gets from Pathfinder does not >appear to be consistent with what we saw of Napper's personality. So >I may well be utterly worng on that count. > >At least part of the reason that speculation has tended toward >Tazendra's soul being bonded with Blackwand, though, is that the >fierce, female personality that Vlad senses from that weapon could >well be Tazendra, given that she is indeed so much a Dzur. > > >To me, this argues both that the capture of a soul is *not* part of > >the bonding process, but *may* be part of the assembly or re-assembly > >process. > >You may be correct. > >However, I believe that an alternate model of Great Weapons is that >they are created in a "primed" state, where they are fully powerful >but not fully sapient, not truly self-aware - until they take their >first soul, and then that soul, which binds to the bearer, causes the >entire weapon to be a sapient entity in and of itself. > >That suggests that when Morrolan first receives Blackwand, it has >either never been used to kill (that is, never had a soul bound to >it), or that the soul that orginally inhabited it eventually >evaporated, leaving the weapon in its "primed" state again. > >Hmm. In Dragon, the Serioli says that Morrolan does not introduce >Blackwand because they have already met. Presumably, that was after >it (she?) had woken up. > Sure is a lot of speculating on this... lets see, Sethra Lavode is how old? and the empire has been around how long? The Serioles (spelling?)created the great weapons when? The Drageraens crowded out the Serioles (spelling?) how long ago? The Gods rebelled against the Jenoine how many HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of YEARS prior to the time of the Viscount? And the Great Weapons are just being formed? Godslayer was taken apart (to an extent) by the gods... where has it EVER been stated that any other great weapon was dismantled? Why not speculate on something worth speculating on, like whether or not it was a great weapon which Khaavren and company receivered at the Pepperfields from Fenarr... _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Aug 15 22:09:05 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:09:05 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030816050905.GA2053@infodancer.org> On Sat, Aug 16, 2003 at 04:59:33AM +0000, Steve Hubbell wrote: > >From: David Silberstein > >To: Dragaera Mailing List > >Subject: Re: Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas) > >Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:33:00 -0700 (PDT) > > > >On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Steve Simmons wrote: > > > >>And real spoilers for ISSOLA. > >> > >>On Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 04:11:33PM -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: > >> > >>> Spoiler space, so I can stop talking around possible future spoiles. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Morrolan has a big Morganti weapon he refers to as his "black wand" > >>> (note the lack of capitalization), and which none of the > >better-informed > >>> people in his retinue have yet referred to as a Great Weapon. > >>> > >>> Remember, in _Issola_, how a powerful Morganti blade only became a GW > >>> when combined with a human soul? I believe that we'll be seeing a > >>> similar scene at some point in _Sethra Lavode_. > >> > >>If I'm reading Alexx correctly, he's saying that the 'black wand' > >>will become a Great Weapon and will bond with Morrolan only when > >>consuming a human soul, possibly combined with some other qualifying > >>event. If so, I must disagree. > > > >>As a part of that process, a soul was consumed by the Morganti > >>weapon which shortly after became Godslayer. That process also > >>seemed to result in the bonding of Godslayer to Vlad. > > > >I am not sure "consuming" is the correct word. Vlad had to go to > >great and extraordinary lengths in order to ensure that Lady Teldra's > >soul was *not* consumed. So I think it is important to note that it > >is not just that Spellbreaker+Morganti blade+Teldra's soul that made > >Godslayer - it was also Vlad's exertion of... something, maybe > >witchcraft, maybe a little of everything, that caused the combination > >to meld properly. Teldra's soul was *bound* to the Morganti > >weapon+Spellbreaker - she was not *consumed* by it. > > > >>However, we have seen another case where a GW meets a bonded owner > >>without a soul being sacrificed. When Aliera obtains Pathfinder, > >>no such sacrifice, assembly, or reassembly occurs. Aliera picks up > >>Pathfinder and the bonding seems to be there immediately. > > > >I believe there was a significant event that took place some time > >before Aliera picked up Pathfinder, which was that the "cloaked" > >Morganti blade killed Napper. > > > >I have speculated elsewhere that the only Morganti blade that was in > >there was Pathfinder itself; that the feeling that it was a "weak" > >Morganti blade was caused by Pathfinder being covered with more > >mundane metal. So in other words, the Morganti blade that took in > >Napper's soul (I hesitate to say "consumed"; see above) was in fact > >Pathfinder itself. > > > >On the other hand, the feeling that Vlad gets from Pathfinder does not > >appear to be consistent with what we saw of Napper's personality. So > >I may well be utterly worng on that count. > > > >At least part of the reason that speculation has tended toward > >Tazendra's soul being bonded with Blackwand, though, is that the > >fierce, female personality that Vlad senses from that weapon could > >well be Tazendra, given that she is indeed so much a Dzur. > > > >>To me, this argues both that the capture of a soul is *not* part of > >>the bonding process, but *may* be part of the assembly or re-assembly > >>process. > > > >You may be correct. > > > >However, I believe that an alternate model of Great Weapons is that > >they are created in a "primed" state, where they are fully powerful > >but not fully sapient, not truly self-aware - until they take their > >first soul, and then that soul, which binds to the bearer, causes the > >entire weapon to be a sapient entity in and of itself. > > > >That suggests that when Morrolan first receives Blackwand, it has > >either never been used to kill (that is, never had a soul bound to > >it), or that the soul that orginally inhabited it eventually > >evaporated, leaving the weapon in its "primed" state again. > > > >Hmm. In Dragon, the Serioli says that Morrolan does not introduce > >Blackwand because they have already met. Presumably, that was after > >it (she?) had woken up. > > > > Sure is a lot of speculating on this... lets see, Sethra Lavode is how old? > and the empire has been around how long? The Serioles (spelling?)created > the great weapons when? The Drageraens crowded out the Serioles (spelling?) > how long ago? The Gods rebelled against the Jenoine how many HUNDREDS of > THOUSANDS of YEARS prior to the time of the Viscount? And the Great Weapons > are just being formed? Godslayer was taken apart (to an extent) by the > gods... where has it EVER been stated that any other great weapon was > dismantled? No one is claiming that the others were dismantled. Nevertheless we do not know what aspects of Vlad's experience with Lady Teldra related to the dismantling, and which are more representative of normal experience with a Great Weapon. In particular we know that Pathfinder was concealed in one way, such that it was rendered less efficious and perhaps in some way less active. Thus we have two examples from which to generalize, which indeed upon this list is in fact two more than required. > Why not speculate on something worth speculating on, like > whether or not it was a great weapon which Khaavren and company receivered > at the Pepperfields from Fenarr... Because we have no way of knowing, except by the evidence that none of them have made any special note of their weaponry. In particular, we do not know what became of that blade. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From haden at train.missouri.org Fri Aug 15 22:34:33 2003 From: haden at train.missouri.org (Curtis Haden) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:34:33 -0500 Subject: Interesting Points in _Phoenix_ Message-ID: <3F3DC269.3050209@train.missouri.org> These ideas obviously include that of democracy, which is Padraic Kelly's cause throughout the Vladiad. I thought the ideas were more along the lines of revoluskism? ;\ (Given Steve's admitted Trotskist sympathies...heh) From haden at train.missouri.org Fri Aug 15 22:41:37 2003 From: haden at train.missouri.org (Curtis Haden) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:41:37 -0500 Subject: Fentor Message-ID: <3F3DC411.1070500@train.missouri.org> Not really a spoiler, but obligatory spaces anyways... * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Currently AFB... Already read LoCB and loaned it to cheap friend who is to tight to go buy the damn thing himself...heh. When Fentor is introduced in Jhereg, he is positively identified as Tsalmoth. Was he Tsalmoth in LoCB, or did it say??? May just be my over-active imagination, but I was left with a definate draconic impression of Fentor. Of course this is assuming that Fentor is not another Orlaan/Loraan 'mistake/oversight/outright confusing of the issue' by the esteemable Mr. B. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Aug 15 22:53:14 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 22:53:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: <20030816050905.GA2053@infodancer.org> References: <20030816050905.GA2053@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: > ... > normal experience with a Great Weapon. In particular we know > that Pathfinder was concealed in one way, such that it was > rendered less efficious and perhaps in some way less active. > Thus we have two examples from which to generalize, which indeed > upon this list is in fact two more than required. We don't know much about Pathfinder pre-Aliera, but it should be noted that Baritt got a mountain named after him, being suspiciously powerful (see _Dragon_). This point is rather a sore one for me - it seems to me he should have had more visible effects in the Vladiad and Paarfiad. > > Why not speculate on something worth speculating on, like > > whether or not it was a great weapon which Khaavren and company receivered > > at the Pepperfields from Fenarr... > > Because we have no way of knowing, except by the evidence that > none of them have made any special note of their weaponry. In > particular, we do not know what became of that blade. We know that Adron received it. Adron would notice he was holding a GW, or a potential GW. I suspect that he wouldn't have needed to blast the Orb if he had a GW, and certainly Sethra would have noticed if he had one (presumably he wouldn't have left it at home) therefore... On the subject, I would like to once again assert that Morrolan's taking Blackwand into the Paths, when he fully expects to be staying, is an annoying flaw in _Taltos_, which if anyone can explain away I'd be grateful. Also on the subject, in _Issola_, when M and A are kidnapped, BW and PF come along for the ride, though presumably there was no physical contact - the J could have grabbed them when they were both in the shower or the sack, say, if it mattered. A GW is like a shadow, Enclouding be damned. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Aug 15 23:10:41 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fentor (minor SPOILER for _TLoCB_) In-Reply-To: <3F3DC411.1070500@train.missouri.org> References: <3F3DC411.1070500@train.missouri.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Curtis Haden wrote: > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > * > > Currently AFB... Already read LoCB and loaned it to cheap friend who is > to tight to go buy the damn thing himself...heh. When Fentor is > introduced in Jhereg, he is positively identified as Tsalmoth. Was he > Tsalmoth in LoCB, or did it say??? May just be my over-active > imagination, but I was left with a definate draconic impression of > Fentor. Of course this is assuming that Fentor is not another > Orlaan/Loraan 'mistake/oversight/outright confusing of the issue' by the > esteemable Mr. B. I find it inconsistent for the Fentor of _TLoCB_ to be identified with the F of _Jhereg_, because the latter (a Tsalmoth [_J_ pg 139], who had "been with M's security forces for over fifty years) is too subservient. That or I completely don't understand Dragaeran society. After playing an important role in the most important events in living memory, I'm sure F_tlocb would be a duke with a personal army. So I think you've just presented evidence that I should have had more faith in SKZB, because F_tlocb (aka F e'Mondaar) is in fact a Dragon and hence is not F_j. From haden at train.missouri.org Fri Aug 15 23:15:18 2003 From: haden at train.missouri.org (Curtis Haden) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 01:15:18 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) + thoughts on Napper In-Reply-To: <20030816050905.GA2053@infodancer.org> References: <20030816050905.GA2053@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <3F3DCBF6.6060702@train.missouri.org> Matthew Hunter wrote: >On Sat, Aug 16, 2003 at 04:59:33AM +0000, Steve Hubbell wrote: > > >>>From: David Silberstein >>>To: Dragaera Mailing List >>>Subject: Re: Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas) >>>Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:33:00 -0700 (PDT) >>> >>>On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Steve Simmons wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>And real spoilers for ISSOLA. >>>> >>>>On Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 04:11:33PM -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Spoiler space, so I can stop talking around possible future spoiles. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Morrolan has a big Morganti weapon he refers to as his "black wand" >>>>>(note the lack of capitalization), and which none of the >>>>> >>>>> >>>better-informed >>> >>> >>>>>people in his retinue have yet referred to as a Great Weapon. >>>>> >>>>>Remember, in _Issola_, how a powerful Morganti blade only became a GW >>>>>when combined with a human soul? I believe that we'll be seeing a >>>>>similar scene at some point in _Sethra Lavode_. >>>>> see below >>>>> >>>>> >>>>If I'm reading Alexx correctly, he's saying that the 'black wand' >>>>will become a Great Weapon and will bond with Morrolan only when >>>>consuming a human soul, possibly combined with some other qualifying >>>>event. If so, I must disagree. >>>> >>>> >>>>As a part of that process, a soul was consumed by the Morganti >>>>weapon which shortly after became Godslayer. That process also >>>>seemed to result in the bonding of Godslayer to Vlad. >>>> >>>> >>>I am not sure "consuming" is the correct word. Vlad had to go to >>>great and extraordinary lengths in order to ensure that Lady Teldra's >>>soul was *not* consumed. So I think it is important to note that it >>>is not just that Spellbreaker+Morganti blade+Teldra's soul that made >>>Godslayer - it was also Vlad's exertion of... something, maybe >>>witchcraft, maybe a little of everything, that caused the combination >>>to meld properly. Teldra's soul was *bound* to the Morganti >>>weapon+Spellbreaker - she was not *consumed* by it. >>> >>> >>> >>>>However, we have seen another case where a GW meets a bonded owner >>>>without a soul being sacrificed. When Aliera obtains Pathfinder, >>>>no such sacrifice, assembly, or reassembly occurs. Aliera picks up >>>>Pathfinder and the bonding seems to be there immediately. >>>> Remember the comment by Aliera in _Dragon_ that Pathfinder "may have been trying to come to her" the whole time? (Poor quote, I know, but you get the idea.) I get the sense that the GW "wakes up" or acquires a personality when it is possessed by the one it was intended for. Not that the Serioli could have or would have made a GW for a specific Dragaeren (especially when one considers the whole "soul reincarnation" issue ((odd)) refered to by Aliera in _Yendi_, and the fact that "remover of aspects of deity" came to an easterner..ie Vlad...coupled with the whole "serioli hate the gods" thing.) Perhaps its more of a personality or character type that the possessor possesses...heh...which the weapon responds to. Also, one must consider that Morrolon refers to Barritt and his mysterious abilities as he puzzles with Vlad over what was stolen in _Dragon_. Did Pathfinder 'respond' to Barritt on an intellectual level, prior to his assassination? My gut instinct is that Pathfinder did in fact 'wake up' when possessed by Aliera, due solely to the fact that Barritt was assassinated. Pathfinder surely would not have allowed that. I believe that Khaavren would respond to the preceeding paragraph in the manner, "The Gods, sir, I do not understand the statement you have done me the honor to make." >>>> >>>> >>>I believe there was a significant event that took place some time >>>before Aliera picked up Pathfinder, which was that the "cloaked" >>>Morganti blade killed Napper. >>> And hey, can we bring back Napper at some point??? You know Aliera could just make Pathfinder puke him up. I really like Napper. >>> >>>I have speculated elsewhere that the only Morganti blade that was in >>>there was Pathfinder itself; that the feeling that it was a "weak" >>>Morganti blade was caused by Pathfinder being covered with more >>>mundane metal. So in other words, the Morganti blade that took in >>>Napper's soul (I hesitate to say "consumed"; see above) was in fact >>>Pathfinder itself. >>> Lets hope so...I'm still pulling for a puking of Napper. >>> >>>On the other hand, the feeling that Vlad gets from Pathfinder does not >>>appear to be consistent with what we saw of Napper's personality. So >>>I may well be utterly worng on that count. >>> >>>At least part of the reason that speculation has tended toward >>>Tazendra's soul being bonded with Blackwand, though, is that the >>>fierce, female personality that Vlad senses from that weapon could >>>well be Tazendra, given that she is indeed so much a Dzur. >>> Don't matter. >>> >>> >>> >>>>To me, this argues both that the capture of a soul is *not* part of >>>>the bonding process, but *may* be part of the assembly or re-assembly >>>>process. >>>> >>>> >>>You may be correct. >>> I cut the rest of that off, because all I can think of now is Napper. I'm laughing, even if you're not. From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Aug 15 23:25:46 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 01:25:46 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: References: <20030816050905.GA2053@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20030816062546.GB2053@infodancer.org> On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 10:53:14PM -0700, Philip Hart wrote: > On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: > > ... > > normal experience with a Great Weapon. In particular we know > > that Pathfinder was concealed in one way, such that it was > > rendered less efficious and perhaps in some way less active. > > Thus we have two examples from which to generalize, which indeed > > upon this list is in fact two more than required. > We don't know much about Pathfinder pre-Aliera, but it should be noted > that Baritt got a mountain named after him, being suspiciously powerful > (see _Dragon_). IIRC, it was speculated by the characters that Baritt may not have known he had a Great Weapon. Even if he did, it strikes me that if anything could cause a Great Weapon to return to a quiescent state, the death of it's wielder would certainly qualify. > This point is rather a sore one for me - it seems to me > he should have had more visible effects in the Vladiad and Paarfiad. Vlad would have no way to know much about Baritt -- he doesn't travel in those circles. Paarfi has said little, but then there are many subjects and events concerning which he has said little. Note the little nitpick about the second Jhereg-Dragon war in PotD. > > > Why not speculate on something worth speculating on, like > > > whether or not it was a great weapon which Khaavren and company receivered > > > at the Pepperfields from Fenarr... > > > > Because we have no way of knowing, except by the evidence that > > none of them have made any special note of their weaponry. In > > particular, we do not know what became of that blade. > We know that Adron received it. Adron would notice he was holding a GW, > or a potential GW. I suspect that he wouldn't have needed to blast the > Orb if he had a GW, and certainly Sethra would have noticed if he had one > (presumably he wouldn't have left it at home) therefore... Others have noted that the Orb itself is an artifact with a significance and potency at least the equal of a Great Weapon, perhaps even more so. Moreover, I see no reason why a Great Weapon would necessarily have any effect at all upon Adron's success or failure in his attempt; their powers seem to be orthogonal to sorcery (Elder or otherwise), rather than complementary. > On the subject, I would like to once again assert that Morrolan's taking > Blackwand into the Paths, when he fully expects to be staying, is an > annoying flaw in _Taltos_, which if anyone can explain away I'd be > grateful. I see several possibilities, of which one or more may be sufficient: 1) Morrolan didn't think of it (*very* likely given his attitude in LoCB). 2) Sethra knew Vlad could get him out. 3) The Gods would see that the weapon made its way to some useful soul. I confess that I am still puzzled as to why Aliera's soul was sufficiently valuable to be retrieved from the Paths by such extreme and unprecedently measures. > Also on the subject, in _Issola_, when M and A are kidnapped, BW and PF > come along for the ride, though presumably there was no physical contact - > the J could have grabbed them when they were both in the shower or the > sack, say, if it mattered. A GW is like a shadow, Enclouding be damned. They also came fully clothed, you'll note. This is often a convenient aspect of fictional means of teleportation. ;) -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Fri Aug 15 23:30:31 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:30:31 -0700 Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: <20030816062546.GB2053@infodancer.org> References: <20030816050905.GA2053@infodancer.org> <20030816062546.GB2053@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <9rjrjvg7e637v2d7rbmb65squvrnm35vlk@4ax.com> On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 01:25:46 -0500, you wrote: >I confess that I am still puzzled as to why Aliera's soul was >sufficiently valuable to be retrieved from the Paths by such >extreme and unprecedently measures. Well, she /is/ the offspring of a Goddess and the guy who turned into a Lesser Sea of Chaos.... -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Aug 15 23:44:10 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 01:44:10 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: <9rjrjvg7e637v2d7rbmb65squvrnm35vlk@4ax.com> References: <20030816050905.GA2053@infodancer.org> <20030816062546.GB2053@infodancer.org> <9rjrjvg7e637v2d7rbmb65squvrnm35vlk@4ax.com> Message-ID: <20030816064410.GD2053@infodancer.org> On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 11:30:31PM -0700, lazarus wrote: > On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 01:25:46 -0500, you wrote: > >I confess that I am still puzzled as to why Aliera's soul was > >sufficiently valuable to be retrieved from the Paths by such > >extreme and unprecedently measures. > Well, she /is/ the offspring of a Goddess and the guy who turned into > a Lesser Sea of Chaos.... I await her earthshattering effects upon the world. I find it hard to believe Sethra went to that much trouble just to have someone to bait. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Aug 15 23:46:41 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: <20030816062546.GB2053@infodancer.org> References: <20030816050905.GA2053@infodancer.org> <20030816062546.GB2053@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 10:53:14PM -0700, Philip Hart wrote: > > On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: > > > ... > > > normal experience with a Great Weapon. In particular we know > > > that Pathfinder was concealed in one way, such that it was > > > rendered less efficious and perhaps in some way less active. > > > Thus we have two examples from which to generalize, which indeed > > > upon this list is in fact two more than required. > > We don't know much about Pathfinder pre-Aliera, but it should be noted > > that Baritt got a mountain named after him, being suspiciously powerful > > (see _Dragon_). > > IIRC, it was speculated by the characters that Baritt may not > have known he had a Great Weapon. Even if he did, it strikes me > that if anything could cause a Great Weapon to return to a > quiescent state, the death of it's wielder would certainly > qualify. My point was that PF was active enough for B to hold off an army/defy the Empire all by himself. B being assassinated isn't consistent with him being bonded with PF, it's true, but he isn't an idiot either. > > This point is rather a sore one for me - it seems to me > > he should have had more visible effects in the Vladiad and Paarfiad. > > Vlad would have no way to know much about Baritt -- he doesn't > travel in those circles. Paarfi has said little, but then there > are many subjects and events concerning which he has said little. > Note the little nitpick about the second Jhereg-Dragon war in > PotD. Vlad knows something about history. And he's curious. And he has a personal grudge with the guy. And he's buddies with a bunch of chatty Dragons, one of whom worships B in a way that is hardly consistent with a low-profile kind of guy. > > > none of them have made any special note of their weaponry. In > > > particular, we do not know what became of that blade. > > We know that Adron received it. Adron would notice he was holding a GW, > > or a potential GW. I suspect that he wouldn't have needed to blast the > > Orb if he had a GW, and certainly Sethra would have noticed if he had one > > (presumably he wouldn't have left it at home) therefore... > > ... success or failure in his attempt; their powers seem to be > orthogonal to sorcery (Elder or otherwise), rather than > complementary. There are many counterexamples. > > > On the subject, I would like to once again assert that Morrolan's taking > > Blackwand into the Paths, when he fully expects to be staying, is an > > annoying flaw in _Taltos_, which if anyone can explain away I'd be > > grateful. > > I see several possibilities, of which one or more may be > sufficient: > > 1) Morrolan didn't think of it (*very* likely given his attitude > in LoCB). That's fine, but S would have insisted he be responsible. > 2) Sethra knew Vlad could get him out. She couldn't. Vlad nearly kills himself with his spell, and barely thinks to do it. > 3) The Gods would see that the weapon made its way to some useful > soul. I agree on this point, but I think the logistics wouldn't be as simple as you present it, and who knows when the J will show up? > I confess that I am still puzzled as to why Aliera's soul was > sufficiently valuable to be retrieved from the Paths by such > extreme and unprecedently measures. This seems explicable - she's one of the handful of leading souls from the dawn of the Empire. Being the Dragon Heir doesn't matter much, surely, but perhaps being Sethra's friend (and representing a rare failure) does. > > Also on the subject, in _Issola_, when M and A are kidnapped, BW and PF > > come along for the ride, though presumably there was no physical contact - > > the J could have grabbed them when they were both in the shower or the > > sack, say, if it mattered. A GW is like a shadow, Enclouding be damned. > > They also came fully clothed, you'll note. This is often a > convenient aspect of fictional means of teleportation. ;) I think they didn't come clothed. I think they told Vlad that if he mentioned the truth they'd filet him. Note the Jenoine provided a chamber pot - nice touch on their part. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Aug 15 23:48:13 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:48:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: <20030816064410.GD2053@infodancer.org> References: <20030816050905.GA2053@infodancer.org> <20030816062546.GB2053@infodancer.org> <9rjrjvg7e637v2d7rbmb65squvrnm35vlk@4ax.com> <20030816064410.GD2053@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 11:30:31PM -0700, lazarus wrote: > > On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 01:25:46 -0500, you wrote: > > >I confess that I am still puzzled as to why Aliera's soul was > > >sufficiently valuable to be retrieved from the Paths by such > > >extreme and unprecedently measures. > > Well, she /is/ the offspring of a Goddess and the guy who turned into > > a Lesser Sea of Chaos.... > > I await her earthshattering effects upon the world. Read the end of _Issola_, where she effects the defeat of the J. From davids at kithrup.com Fri Aug 15 23:51:24 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:51:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: <20030816062546.GB2053@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: >On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 10:53:14PM -0700, Philip Hart > wrote: >> On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: >> > ... >> > >> We know that Adron received it. Adron would notice he was holding a GW, >> or a potential GW. I suspect that he wouldn't have needed to blast the >> Orb if he had a GW, and certainly Sethra would have noticed if he had one >> (presumably he wouldn't have left it at home) therefore... > >Others have noted that the Orb itself is an artifact with a >significance and potency at least the equal of a Great Weapon, >perhaps even more so. Moreover, I see no reason why a Great >Weapon would necessarily have any effect at all upon Adron's >success or failure in his attempt; their powers seem to be >orthogonal to sorcery (Elder or otherwise), rather than >complementary. I think they can indeed be complementary to sorcery. Note that Blackwand has largely replaced the function of Morrolan's wizard staff. > >I confess that I am still puzzled as to why Aliera's soul was >sufficiently valuable to be retrieved from the Paths by such >extreme and unprecedently measures. I have already speculated that perhaps Aliera's ability to manipulate raw Amorphia might have been a potentially useful defensive measure agains the Jenoine on Dzur Mountain. Sethra might have also been thinking in terms of backup plans if she failed against the Jenoine. After Sethra, perhaps Zerika would have been called upon to fight the Jenoine with the Orb. If *that* failed, then a Dragon Heir who could also manipulate Amorphia would have been the next fallback plan. She might have had other levels of defenses planned, especially with the aid of Sethra the Younger & the Sorceress in Green, but Aliera might well have been a crucial part of some portion of those plans. >> Also on the subject, in _Issola_, when M and A are kidnapped, BW and PF >> come along for the ride, though presumably there was no physical contact - >> the J could have grabbed them when they were both in the shower or the >> sack, say, if it mattered. A GW is like a shadow, Enclouding be damned. > >They also came fully clothed, you'll note. This is often a >convenient aspect of fictional means of teleportation. ;) > The Great Weapons might have refused to allow their bearers to leave that plane of reality without them. Or, perhaps the Jenoine *wanted* the GWs to come along, since they might have been useful in tracing where M & A had been take if they were left behind. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sat Aug 16 00:00:48 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:00:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: > >> pH wrote: > I have already speculated that perhaps Aliera's ability to > manipulate raw Amorphia might have been a potentially useful > defensive measure agains the Jenoine on Dzur Mountain. > > Sethra might have also been thinking in terms of backup > plans if she failed against the Jenoine. After Sethra, > perhaps Zerika would have been called upon to fight the > Jenoine with the Orb. If *that* failed, then a Dragon > Heir who could also manipulate Amorphia would have been > the next fallback plan. > > She might have had other levels of defenses planned, > especially with the aid of Sethra the Younger & the > Sorceress in Green, but Aliera might well have been > a crucial part of some portion of those plans. First-rate speculation. > >> Also on the subject, in _Issola_, when M and A are kidnapped, BW and PF > >> come along for the ride, though presumably there was no physical contact - > >> the J could have grabbed them when they were both in the shower or the > >> sack, say, if it mattered. A GW is like a shadow, Enclouding be damned. > > > >They also came fully clothed, you'll note. This is often a > >convenient aspect of fictional means of teleportation. ;) > > > > The Great Weapons might have refused to allow their bearers to leave > that plane of reality without them. Or, perhaps the Jenoine *wanted* > the GWs to come along, since they might have been useful in tracing > where M & A had been take if they were left behind. This last bit seems to be wrong. The J _wanted_ M/A to be found, to the extent that they want things rather than just serving the plot. It got them Vlad, a good choice for deicide. And if they could have separated M/A from BW/PF, then they could have dropped the former in the river and sent a flunky to collect the latter... From kisc at insaneninjahero.com Sat Aug 16 00:10:02 2003 From: kisc at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 01:10:02 -0600 Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > > This point is rather a sore one for me - it seems to me > > > he should have had more visible effects in the Vladiad and Paarfiad. > > > > Vlad would have no way to know much about Baritt -- he doesn't > > travel in those circles. Paarfi has said little, but then there > > are many subjects and events concerning which he has said little. > > Note the little nitpick about the second Jhereg-Dragon war in > > PotD. > > Vlad knows something about history. And he's curious. And he has a > personal grudge with the guy. And he's buddies with a bunch of > chatty Dragons, one of whom worships B in a way that is hardly consistent > with a low-profile kind of guy. > Yeah, and I can hear Vlad saying "that's one of those things I ought to learn more about, one of these days. Or not." Doubtless, he could learn as much as he wanted about Baritt were he in the mood to listen to Morrolan hero-worship shamelessly. Note also that much of Vlad's adventures, as high profile as they have been in some circles, would have been more or less completely unrecorded in history. There is no reason to suppose that Baritt's adventures have been noised about. > > > > > On the subject, I would like to once again assert that > Morrolan's taking > > > Blackwand into the Paths, when he fully expects to be staying, is an > > > annoying flaw in _Taltos_, which if anyone can explain away I'd be > > > grateful. > > > > I see several possibilities, of which one or more may be > > sufficient: > > > > 1) Morrolan didn't think of it (*very* likely given his attitude > > in LoCB). > > That's fine, but S would have insisted he be responsible. > > > 2) Sethra knew Vlad could get him out. > > She couldn't. Vlad nearly kills himself with his spell, and barely thinks > to do it. > > > 3) The Gods would see that the weapon made its way to some useful > > soul. > > I agree on this point, but I think the logistics wouldn't be as simple as > you present it, and who knows when the J will show up? > Morrolan and Black Wand in the PotD would be perfectly useful to the gods, I would think. Not at his full potential, maybe, but were the gods desperate enough to start pulling from the paths, I doubt there would be any great difficulty in doing so, which lets out the excuse of the J being an issue. > > > > I confess that I am still puzzled as to why Aliera's soul was > > sufficiently valuable to be retrieved from the Paths by such > > extreme and unprecedently measures. > > This seems explicable - she's one of the handful of leading souls from the > dawn of the Empire. Being the Dragon Heir doesn't matter much, surely, > but perhaps being Sethra's friend (and representing a rare failure) does. > I think that the explanations that Vlad has received since he started demanding them are sufficient to suggets that there was enough reason behind the decision to go through with the whole Aliera/PotD thing which we are unaware of. Also, I suspect that someone in Sethra's position goes on a lot of instinct/intuition. I have this picture of her feeling "right" about Morrolan going, even though she can't think of any good reasons for it. Whether her subconscious is prompting her, or some intuitive ability to read the future ( ... not read the future but maybe feel the future), or Verra prompting her, I dunno, but that's the picture I get. > > > > > Also on the subject, in _Issola_, when M and A are kidnapped, > BW and PF > > > come along for the ride, though presumably there was no > physical contact - > > > the J could have grabbed them when they were both in the shower or the > > > sack, say, if it mattered. A GW is like a shadow, Enclouding > be damned. > > > > They also came fully clothed, you'll note. This is often a > > convenient aspect of fictional means of teleportation. ;) > > I think they didn't come clothed. I think they told Vlad that if he > mentioned the truth they'd filet him. Note the Jenoine provided a chamber > pot - nice touch on their part. > I think they were normally dressed. Remember: the Jenoine don't think like us ... Whoever "us" is in this context... perhaps they wanted the two great weapons to be present so they could test the limit of their ability to block them. Maybe they had a failsafe in place ... Kisc Wild, unfounded speculation is my specialty. From matthew at infodancer.org Sat Aug 16 00:14:48 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 02:14:48 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: References: <20030816050905.GA2053@infodancer.org> <20030816062546.GB2053@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20030816071448.GE2053@infodancer.org> On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 11:46:41PM -0700, Philip Hart wrote: > On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 10:53:14PM -0700, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: > > > > ... > > > > normal experience with a Great Weapon. In particular we know > > > > that Pathfinder was concealed in one way, such that it was > > > > rendered less efficious and perhaps in some way less active. > > > > Thus we have two examples from which to generalize, which indeed > > > > upon this list is in fact two more than required. > > > We don't know much about Pathfinder pre-Aliera, but it should be noted > > > that Baritt got a mountain named after him, being suspiciously powerful > > > (see _Dragon_). > > IIRC, it was speculated by the characters that Baritt may not > > have known he had a Great Weapon. Even if he did, it strikes me > > that if anything could cause a Great Weapon to return to a > > quiescent state, the death of it's wielder would certainly > > qualify. > My point was that PF was active enough for B to hold off an army/defy the > Empire all by himself. B being assassinated isn't consistent with him > being bonded with PF, it's true, but he isn't an idiot either. Morrolan was assassinated while bonded. Carrying a GW is not a get-out-of-death-free card. Presumably you still need to be revivifiable. > > > This point is rather a sore one for me - it seems to me > > > he should have had more visible effects in the Vladiad and Paarfiad. > > Vlad would have no way to know much about Baritt -- he doesn't > > travel in those circles. Paarfi has said little, but then there > > are many subjects and events concerning which he has said little. > > Note the little nitpick about the second Jhereg-Dragon war in > > PotD. > Vlad knows something about history. And he's curious. And he has a > personal grudge with the guy. And he's buddies with a bunch of > chatty Dragons, one of whom worships B in a way that is hardly consistent > with a low-profile kind of guy. And his memory has been fucked with in some respect relevant to that campaign. In addition, Vlad's interaction consists of little more than "I don't like him. I will arrange for him to die." He didn't settle down and research the guy. > > > > none of them have made any special note of their weaponry. In > > > > particular, we do not know what became of that blade. > > > We know that Adron received it. Adron would notice he was holding a GW, > > > or a potential GW. I suspect that he wouldn't have needed to blast the > > > Orb if he had a GW, and certainly Sethra would have noticed if he had one > > > (presumably he wouldn't have left it at home) therefore... > > ... success or failure in his attempt; their powers seem to be > > orthogonal to sorcery (Elder or otherwise), rather than > > complementary. > There are many counterexamples. I beg to differ. We have seen Blackwand produce some pretty fireworks but we have little insight into how it has done so, or indeed whether it might have been Morrolan doing so himself in some of those instances. > > > On the subject, I would like to once again assert that Morrolan's taking > > > Blackwand into the Paths, when he fully expects to be staying, is an > > > annoying flaw in _Taltos_, which if anyone can explain away I'd be > > > grateful. > > I see several possibilities, of which one or more may be > > sufficient: > > 1) Morrolan didn't think of it (*very* likely given his attitude > > in LoCB). > That's fine, but S would have insisted he be responsible. See point 2. > > 2) Sethra knew Vlad could get him out. > She couldn't. Vlad nearly kills himself with his spell, and barely thinks > to do it. She gave him the vial. We know she has access to prophetic methods. There's no way to know WHY she gave it to him, if not for that specific purpose, without her telling us; until she does, it must remain a possibility. > > 3) The Gods would see that the weapon made its way to some useful > > soul. > I agree on this point, but I think the logistics wouldn't be as simple as > you present it, and who knows when the J will show up? We've already seen that the scale on which the Jenoine usually act is fairly large; Issola takes place years and years after the last known Jenoine threat ("I can't leave Dzur Mountain right now") and Sethra still comments that it is too soon to expect another attempt. > > I confess that I am still puzzled as to why Aliera's soul was > > sufficiently valuable to be retrieved from the Paths by such > > extreme and unprecedently measures. > This seems explicable - she's one of the handful of leading souls from the > dawn of the Empire. Being the Dragon Heir doesn't matter much, surely, > but perhaps being Sethra's friend (and representing a rare failure) does. Sufficiently so to risk Morrolan AND Vlad? I remain unconvinced. > > > Also on the subject, in _Issola_, when M and A are kidnapped, BW and PF > > > come along for the ride, though presumably there was no physical contact - > > > the J could have grabbed them when they were both in the shower or the > > > sack, say, if it mattered. A GW is like a shadow, Enclouding be damned. > > They also came fully clothed, you'll note. This is often a > > convenient aspect of fictional means of teleportation. ;) > I think they didn't come clothed. I think they told Vlad that if he > mentioned the truth they'd filet him. Note the Jenoine provided a chamber > pot - nice touch on their part. While this is a terribly amusing mental image, they would likely have said the same thing about the presence of the chamberpot. Worse, IIRC, their weapons are sheathed -- Morrolan draws Blackwand at one point. And Vlad would definitely have reacted very strongly to both Pathfinder and Blackwand, unsheathed, in his immediate vicinity. Still, it's interesting that the subject matter is... ah... carefully avoided in Vlad's commentary. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From matthew at infodancer.org Sat Aug 16 00:17:47 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 02:17:47 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: References: <20030816050905.GA2053@infodancer.org> <20030816062546.GB2053@infodancer.org> <9rjrjvg7e637v2d7rbmb65squvrnm35vlk@4ax.com> <20030816064410.GD2053@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20030816071747.GF2053@infodancer.org> On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 11:48:13PM -0700, Philip Hart wrote: > On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 11:30:31PM -0700, lazarus wrote: > > > On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 01:25:46 -0500, you wrote: > > > >I confess that I am still puzzled as to why Aliera's soul was > > > >sufficiently valuable to be retrieved from the Paths by such > > > >extreme and unprecedently measures. > > > Well, she /is/ the offspring of a Goddess and the guy who turned into > > > a Lesser Sea of Chaos.... > > I await her earthshattering effects upon the world. > Read the end of _Issola_, where she effects the defeat of the J. I find "I asked Daddy to do it" to be dramatically lacking for this purpose. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From kisc at insaneninjahero.com Sat Aug 16 00:27:12 2003 From: kisc at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 01:27:12 -0600 Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: <20030816071747.GF2053@infodancer.org> Message-ID: > > > > >I confess that I am still puzzled as to why Aliera's soul was > > > > >sufficiently valuable to be retrieved from the Paths by such > > > > >extreme and unprecedently measures. > > > > Well, she /is/ the offspring of a Goddess and the guy who > turned into > > > > a Lesser Sea of Chaos.... > > > I await her earthshattering effects upon the world. > > Read the end of _Issola_, where she effects the defeat of the J. > > I find "I asked Daddy to do it" to be dramatically lacking for > this purpose. "I asked Daddy to do it", "I took a chance that Pathfinder could keep me >from being dead in order to save the empire from a Dragon/Jhereg war", whatever she's going to do in the future, etc ... I think the risks taken were pretty well worth it... and will probably become more worth it as time passes. Also, I suspect that there is some "I owe her from 200,000 years ago" involved in the decisions made. Kisc From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sat Aug 16 00:27:19 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:27:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: <20030816071747.GF2053@infodancer.org> References: <20030816050905.GA2053@infodancer.org> <20030816062546.GB2053@infodancer.org> <9rjrjvg7e637v2d7rbmb65squvrnm35vlk@4ax.com> <20030816064410.GD2053@infodancer.org> <20030816071747.GF2053@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 11:48:13PM -0700, Philip Hart wrote: > > On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: > > > On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 11:30:31PM -0700, lazarus wrote: > > > > On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 01:25:46 -0500, you wrote: > > > > >I confess that I am still puzzled as to why Aliera's soul was > > > > >sufficiently valuable to be retrieved from the Paths by such > > > > >extreme and unprecedently measures. > > > > Well, she /is/ the offspring of a Goddess and the guy who turned into > > > > a Lesser Sea of Chaos.... > > > I await her earthshattering effects upon the world. > > Read the end of _Issola_, where she effects the defeat of the J. > > I find "I asked Daddy to do it" to be dramatically lacking for > this purpose. I take it you found Gollum tripping his way into Mount Doom ("I'm sure the inhabitants of Mordor didn't call it that" - Chomsky in McSweeney's) was dramatically lacking too... From haden at train.missouri.org Sat Aug 16 00:34:24 2003 From: haden at train.missouri.org (Curtis Haden) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 02:34:24 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: <20030816071448.GE2053@infodancer.org> References: <20030816050905.GA2053@infodancer.org> <20030816062546.GB2053@infodancer.org> <20030816071448.GE2053@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <3F3DDE80.4030605@train.missouri.org> Matthew Hunter wrote: >On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 11:46:41PM -0700, Philip Hart wrote: > > >>On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: >> >> >>>On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 10:53:14PM -0700, Philip Hart wrote: >>> >>> >>>>On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>... >>>>>normal experience with a Great Weapon. In particular we know >>>>>that Pathfinder was concealed in one way, such that it was >>>>>rendered less efficious and perhaps in some way less active. >>>>>Thus we have two examples from which to generalize, which indeed >>>>>upon this list is in fact two more than required. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>We don't know much about Pathfinder pre-Aliera, but it should be noted >>>>that Baritt got a mountain named after him, being suspiciously powerful >>>>(see _Dragon_). >>>> >>>> >>>IIRC, it was speculated by the characters that Baritt may not >>>have known he had a Great Weapon. Even if he did, it strikes me >>>that if anything could cause a Great Weapon to return to a >>>quiescent state, the death of it's wielder would certainly >>>qualify. >>> >>> >>My point was that PF was active enough for B to hold off an army/defy the >>Empire all by himself. B being assassinated isn't consistent with him >>being bonded with PF, it's true, but he isn't an idiot either. >> >> > >Morrolan was assassinated while bonded. Carrying a GW is not a >get-out-of-death-free card. Presumably you still need to be >revivifiable. > > Well... (Poorly) Quoting _Issola_ "...A great weapon will always act to preserve the soul of its bearer. There were bonds of love between..." My first thought upon reading that last paragraph was that perhaps only PF would act to preserve the soul of its bearer...a unique quality applicable to only it. But then I recalled Vlad's assertion from _Issola_ about that. Also, this argues the point that PF wasn't fully awake at the point of Barritt's demise. From matthew at infodancer.org Sat Aug 16 00:38:41 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 02:38:41 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: <3F3DDE80.4030605@train.missouri.org> References: <20030816050905.GA2053@infodancer.org> <20030816062546.GB2053@infodancer.org> <20030816071448.GE2053@infodancer.org> <3F3DDE80.4030605@train.missouri.org> Message-ID: <20030816073841.GH2053@infodancer.org> On Sat, Aug 16, 2003 at 02:34:24AM -0500, Curtis Haden wrote: > > > Matthew Hunter wrote: > > >On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 11:46:41PM -0700, Philip Hart > > wrote: > > > > > >>On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: > >> > >> > >>>On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 10:53:14PM -0700, Philip Hart > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>>On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>... > >>>>>normal experience with a Great Weapon. In particular we know > >>>>>that Pathfinder was concealed in one way, such that it was > >>>>>rendered less efficious and perhaps in some way less active. > >>>>>Thus we have two examples from which to generalize, which indeed > >>>>>upon this list is in fact two more than required. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>We don't know much about Pathfinder pre-Aliera, but it should be noted > >>>>that Baritt got a mountain named after him, being suspiciously powerful > >>>>(see _Dragon_). > >>>> > >>>> > >>>IIRC, it was speculated by the characters that Baritt may not > >>>have known he had a Great Weapon. Even if he did, it strikes me > >>>that if anything could cause a Great Weapon to return to a > >>>quiescent state, the death of it's wielder would certainly > >>>qualify. > >>> > >>> > >>My point was that PF was active enough for B to hold off an army/defy the > >>Empire all by himself. B being assassinated isn't consistent with him > >>being bonded with PF, it's true, but he isn't an idiot either. > >> > >> > > > >Morrolan was assassinated while bonded. Carrying a GW is not a > >get-out-of-death-free card. Presumably you still need to be > >revivifiable. > > > > > Well... (Poorly) Quoting _Issola_ "...A great weapon will always act to > preserve the soul of its bearer. There were bonds of love between..." > My first thought upon reading that last paragraph was that perhaps only > PF would act to preserve the soul of its bearer...a unique quality > applicable to only it. But then I recalled Vlad's assertion from > _Issola_ about that. Also, this argues the point that PF wasn't fully > awake at the point of Barritt's demise. I don't think that PF was fully awake, but whether it was or not, Baritt being assassinated isn't inconsistent with either case. Even if Baritt's soul was preserved, his body may have been toast -- unrevivifiable -- thus rendering the state of his soul moot. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sat Aug 16 00:43:30 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: <20030816071448.GE2053@infodancer.org> References: <20030816050905.GA2053@infodancer.org> <20030816062546.GB2053@infodancer.org> <20030816071448.GE2053@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 11:46:41PM -0700, Philip Hart wrote: > > My point was that PF was active enough for B to hold off an army/defy the > > Empire all by himself. B being assassinated isn't consistent with him > > being bonded with PF, it's true, but he isn't an idiot either. > > Morrolan was assassinated while bonded. Carrying a GW is not a > get-out-of-death-free card. Presumably you still need to be > revivifiable. It's hard to believe a professional would accept a contract on a GW-wielder. M was assassinated only because a) he charged in blindly b) the assassin got lucky (says Sethra) c) it happened in _Jhereg_ I like g-o-o-d-f card. In future I will be referring to GWs as goodf cards. > > > > This point is rather a sore one for me - it seems to me > > > > he should have had more visible effects in the Vladiad and Paarfiad. > > > Vlad would have no way to know much about Baritt -- he doesn't > > > travel in those circles. Paarfi has said little, but then there > > > are many subjects and events concerning which he has said little. > > > Note the little nitpick about the second Jhereg-Dragon war in > > > PotD. > > Vlad knows something about history. And he's curious. And he has a > > personal grudge with the guy. And he's buddies with a bunch of > > chatty Dragons, one of whom worships B in a way that is hardly consistent > > with a low-profile kind of guy. > > And his memory has been fucked with in some respect relevant to > that campaign. In addition, Vlad's interaction consists of > little more than "I don't like him. I will arrange for him to die." > He didn't settle down and research the guy. I think this doesn't address my points, which anyway have more to do with the necessity for there to be a Baritt-shaped space in recent history, which would make that history immensely eventful and clotted. > > > ... success or failure in his attempt; their powers seem to be > > > orthogonal to sorcery (Elder or otherwise), rather than > > > complementary. > > There are many counterexamples. > > I beg to differ. We have seen Blackwand produce some pretty > fireworks but we have little insight into how it has done so, or > indeed whether it might have been Morrolan doing so himself in > some of those instances. See David Silberstein on this point. > > > > On the subject, I would like to once again assert that Morrolan's taking > > > > Blackwand into the Paths, when he fully expects to be staying, is an [disagreements snipped] > > mentioned the truth they'd filet him. Note the Jenoine provided a chamber > > pot - nice touch on their part. Off-topic, if anyone gets an opportunity to hear David Sedaris's spiel on the NPR radio program This American Life about StadiumPal (or something like that), a device for beer drinkers who don't want to brave the bathroom lines at football games, do - it's perhaps the funniest thing I've ever heard. From haden at train.missouri.org Sat Aug 16 00:48:46 2003 From: haden at train.missouri.org (Curtis Haden) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 02:48:46 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: <20030816073841.GH2053@infodancer.org> References: <20030816050905.GA2053@infodancer.org> <20030816062546.GB2053@infodancer.org> <20030816071448.GE2053@infodancer.org> <3F3DDE80.4030605@train.missouri.org> <20030816073841.GH2053@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <3F3DE1DE.5050107@train.missouri.org> Matthew Hunter wrote: >On Sat, Aug 16, 2003 at 02:34:24AM -0500, Curtis Haden wrote: > > >>Matthew Hunter wrote: >> >> >> >>>On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 11:46:41PM -0700, Philip Hart >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 10:53:14PM -0700, Philip Hart >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>... >>>>>>>normal experience with a Great Weapon. In particular we know >>>>>>>that Pathfinder was concealed in one way, such that it was >>>>>>>rendered less efficious and perhaps in some way less active. >>>>>>>Thus we have two examples from which to generalize, which indeed >>>>>>>upon this list is in fact two more than required. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>We don't know much about Pathfinder pre-Aliera, but it should be noted >>>>>>that Baritt got a mountain named after him, being suspiciously powerful >>>>>>(see _Dragon_). >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>IIRC, it was speculated by the characters that Baritt may not >>>>>have known he had a Great Weapon. Even if he did, it strikes me >>>>>that if anything could cause a Great Weapon to return to a >>>>>quiescent state, the death of it's wielder would certainly >>>>>qualify. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>My point was that PF was active enough for B to hold off an army/defy the >>>>Empire all by himself. B being assassinated isn't consistent with him >>>>being bonded with PF, it's true, but he isn't an idiot either. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Morrolan was assassinated while bonded. Carrying a GW is not a >>>get-out-of-death-free card. Presumably you still need to be >>>revivifiable. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Well... (Poorly) Quoting _Issola_ "...A great weapon will always act to >>preserve the soul of its bearer. There were bonds of love between..." >>My first thought upon reading that last paragraph was that perhaps only >>PF would act to preserve the soul of its bearer...a unique quality >>applicable to only it. But then I recalled Vlad's assertion from >>_Issola_ about that. Also, this argues the point that PF wasn't fully >>awake at the point of Barritt's demise. >> >> > >I don't think that PF was fully awake, but whether it was or not, >Baritt being assassinated isn't inconsistent with either case. >Even if Baritt's soul was preserved, his body may have been >toast -- unrevivifiable -- thus rendering the state of his soul >moot. > Well, all I can say to that is, his soul ended up in the Paths, which argues well for Napper being puked up at some point. As a side note, I beg to assert on this, my first spate of prolific posting on this list, that I have worked for twelve hours and immediately began consuming delicious cold beers upon arriving home and checking my email. If I can live with my spelling and syntax on this night, so must you. > > > From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Sat Aug 16 04:34:19 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 07:34:19 -0400 Subject: Great Weapons (Issola/Yendi/Jhereg Spoilers) In-Reply-To: <3F3DE1DE.5050107@train.missouri.org> References: <20030816050905.GA2053@infodancer.org> <20030816062546.GB2053@infodancer.org> <20030816071448.GE2053@infodancer.org> <3F3DDE80.4030605@train.missouri.org> <20030816073841.GH2053@infodancer.org> <3F3DE1DE.5050107@train.missouri.org> Message-ID: <3F3E16BB.3040400@earthlink.net> Curtis Haden wrote: > > Matthew Hunter wrote: > >> On Sat, Aug 16, 2003 at 02:34:24AM -0500, Curtis Haden >> wrote: >> >>> Matthew Hunter wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 11:46:41PM -0700, Philip Hart >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 10:53:14PM -0700, Philip Hart >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>> normal experience with a Great Weapon. In particular we know >>>>>>>> that Pathfinder was concealed in one way, such that it was >>>>>>>> rendered less efficious and perhaps in some way less active. >>>>>>>> Thus we have two examples from which to generalize, which indeed >>>>>>>> upon this list is in fact two more than required. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We don't know much about Pathfinder pre-Aliera, but it should be >>>>>>> noted >>>>>>> that Baritt got a mountain named after him, being suspiciously >>>>>>> powerful >>>>>>> (see _Dragon_). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> IIRC, it was speculated by the characters that Baritt may not >>>>>> have known he had a Great Weapon. Even if he did, it strikes me >>>>>> that if anything could cause a Great Weapon to return to a >>>>>> quiescent state, the death of it's wielder would certainly >>>>>> qualify. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> My point was that PF was active enough for B to hold off an >>>>> army/defy the >>>>> Empire all by himself. B being assassinated isn't consistent with >>>>> him >>>>> being bonded with PF, it's true, but he isn't an idiot either. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> Morrolan was assassinated while bonded. Carrying a GW is not a >>>> get-out-of-death-free card. Presumably you still need to be >>>> revivifiable. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> Well... (Poorly) Quoting _Issola_ "...A great weapon will always >>> act to preserve the soul of its bearer. There were bonds of love >>> between..." My first thought upon reading that last paragraph was >>> that perhaps only PF would act to preserve the soul of its >>> bearer...a unique quality applicable to only it. But then I >>> recalled Vlad's assertion from _Issola_ about that. Also, this >>> argues the point that PF wasn't fully awake at the point of >>> Barritt's demise. >>> >> >> >> I don't think that PF was fully awake, but whether it was or not, >> Baritt being assassinated isn't inconsistent with either case. Even >> if Baritt's soul was preserved, his body may have been toast -- >> unrevivifiable -- thus rendering the state of his soul moot. >> > > Well, all I can say to that is, his soul ended up in the Paths, which > argues well for Napper being puked up at some point. As a side note, > I beg to assert on this, my first spate of prolific posting on this > list, that I have worked for twelve hours and immediately began > consuming delicious cold beers upon arriving home and checking my > email. If I can live with my spelling and syntax on this night, so > must you. Baritt's soul ended up in the Paths because he was not killed by a Morganti weapon. Napper *was* killed by a Morganti weapon and furthermore, his body sent down the Cliffs of Insanity...uh, I mean Deathgate Falls. Even if his soul was puked up, his original body is not around for revivification, and I doubt he'd be important enough to do a Body Snatchers bit starring the Necromancer and some random body. Also, although many things in Jhereg cannot be considered quite canon (such as Fentor's House; he makes more sense as a Dragon anyway), as our esteemed author did not yet know he was writing a series, I would assume that the descriptions of Great Weapons and their effects/aspects are still as described. So while a Great Weapon will protect your soul from another Morganti weapon, you can still die, as both Aliera and Morrolan demonstrate. Thus, Baritt could have been completely bonded to Pathfinder, but Laris or whoever managed to assassinate him would have still succeeded, as no matter how subtle or well protected the wizard, an assassin cutting your throat for you will seriously cramp your style. Vlad, even wielding Godslayer, can still be killed, but he need not fear the Morganti death. Also, it seems unlikely that he will kindly let the Jhereg know where he plans on sleeping, and that seems about the only time they'll have a shot at him without Loiosh or Rocza noticing. (Hmm. I get the feeling that when word gets around that Vlad is carrying a Great Weapon by the name of Godslayer, the Jhereg will have to get Mario to nail him, as no other Jhereg will want to go against that... and the Empire wouldn't even step in against him, because it's not a common Easterner/Jhereg carrying a common Morganti weapon! Cool! Sorry...) Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From kisc at insaneninjahero.com Sat Aug 16 07:42:52 2003 From: kisc at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 08:42:52 -0600 Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: <3F3DDE80.4030605@train.missouri.org> Message-ID: > >Morrolan was assassinated while bonded. Carrying a GW is not a > >get-out-of-death-free card. Presumably you still need to be > >revivifiable. > > > > > Well... (Poorly) Quoting _Issola_ "...A great weapon will always act to > preserve the soul of its bearer. There were bonds of love between..." > My first thought upon reading that last paragraph was that perhaps only > PF would act to preserve the soul of its bearer...a unique quality > applicable to only it. But then I recalled Vlad's assertion from > _Issola_ about that. Also, this argues the point that PF wasn't fully > awake at the point of Barritt's demise. > Maybe Baritt used PF as a threat to hold them off. Noone has actually said that he held everyone off through main force... and the more time I spend on this list, the more certain I am that SKZB would do something like that. Kisc From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Sat Aug 16 09:22:20 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 12:22:20 -0400 Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: <20030816071448.GE2053@infodancer.org> References: <20030816050905.GA2053@infodancer.org> <20030816062546.GB2053@infodancer.org> <20030816071448.GE2053@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20030816162220.GA19324@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Sat, Aug 16, 2003 at 02:14:48AM -0500, Matthew Hunter wrote: > > Vlad knows something about history. And he's curious. And he has a > > personal grudge with the guy. And he's buddies with a bunch of > > chatty Dragons, one of whom worships B in a way that is hardly consistent > > with a low-profile kind of guy. > > And his memory has been fucked with in some respect relevant to > that campaign . . . I don't think so. I think Vlads 'memory tampering' are Brust commenting that our memories are fallible. -- "I don't like being quoted." -- anonymous From greyw01f at hotmail.com Sat Aug 16 09:35:54 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 16:35:54 +0000 Subject: Great Weapons Message-ID: Okay, here's my take (my two cents) on GWs. 1) A Great Weapon is different from a regular Morganti weapon in that a) it is vastly more powerful b) its sentience is on another level (a Morganti is just feral and murderous, whereas a GW can be calculating as well) These two differences and their implications (notably, that they can act according to their own agenda, given the opportunity, and that agenda is not just drink all the souls you can) seem to imply that each GW is imbued with a soul. However, I would argue that the Serioli smiths put in a good number of failsafes. Morganti weapons were created to make the idea of war so horrible that no one would ever partake in any, ever again. This obviously doesn't work in reality, but I think the same idea was behind the use of the Great Weapons as well as the idea that this world would need some defense against the Gods (among whom you will find the Jenoine--they ARE gods of a sort) So, A Great Weapons also 2) has an agenda of its own, possibly built in by the Serioli. 3) A great weapon, as one of its failsafes, has a certain key to its use. That key is an external soul, that wields this weapon. PF only seems to work to its full potential when Aliera takes it up. It seems to want to get to her, as well. BW, I don't know about all that much, but I would imagine that, given certain clues, he was *meant* to wield it. Iceflame is wielded by an undead soul, but still an external one. By the way, in the Vladiad, I think _Taltos_, Iceflame is described as being a weapon of such power that only the Orb and Godslayer are its equals. Now, another interesting point to bring up is this: why are all the Great Weapons swords (a possible exception is Iceflame, again, but it is a long dagger, which is essentially a short sword)? Is the orb a GW? Anyone who's been involved in weapons practice knows that a sword is a nicely rounded weapon--but sometimes, a sword just can't compare, or isn't the right tool for the job. A staff, for instance, can do things that a swordsman wouldn't have a chance against. However, I would imagine that a GW has to have a blade on it, therefore, is it possible that a GW could take the form of a glaive, or a spear, or something of the like? Anyway, back to my point. The essential requirements for a GW seem to be: 1) a greater sentience (probably a soul, destined to be bound to the specific weapon) 2) a particular wielder 3) possible other parts, like Spellbreaker. Ah whatever, I'm just repeating myself. :) Jon
 
_________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sat Aug 16 10:59:25 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 10:59:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: References: <20030816050905.GA2053@infodancer.org> <20030816062546.GB2053@infodancer.org> <20030816071448.GE2053@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Just a general speculative but I think reasoned comment on why Aliera was worth resurrecting: the GWs (which some have heretically referred to as get-out-of-death-free cards) are principal elements in the gods' long war with the J. But the gods don't like GWs for personal reasons. Hence it behooves them to see to it that those who wield GWs are bound as tightly as possible to the Lords of Judgement. Morrolan has a lot more than a casual relationship with Verra. The Gods are pretty sure about Sethra's loyalties at this point - perhaps they have a hold on her through Dzur Mountain in addition. Aliera has something like a child's attachment to Verra. Perhaps Barrit was uppity, hence the gods arranged to have him worked. Perhaps it is an extremely rare soul that can bond with a GW, and perhaps PF is a particularly difficult case (for one thing it doesn't seem to have a gendered person inside - perhaps this is Drien, who Aliera presumably knew; perhaps it is something godlike, which Aliera could commune with based on her ancestry). This sort of begs the question, why risk the well-bound Morrolan, but on the one hand since PF and GS seem to be related the gods would at worst get two for one, and on the same hand perhaps the gods could somehow know M would escape. Given the above argument, and Vlad's complicated relationship with V, and the particular nature of his GW, I wonder if we'll see more tension on this in future. A Liz Phair song is running through my head: "I can't believe they let you run around free..." From agrajag at dragaera.net Sat Aug 16 11:05:54 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 16 Aug 2003 14:05:54 -0400 Subject: [SPOILERS] _The Lord of Castle Black_ In-Reply-To: <20030803003459.GA863@infodancer.org> References: <20030803003459.GA863@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <1061057153.2110.7.camel@loiosh> On Sat, 2003-08-02 at 20:35, Matthew Hunter wrote: > Well. > > That was fun. > > [SPOILERS below] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm just now catching up with the list since I just now finished the book.. hopefully no one's already said what I'm about to say. > * Morrolan receives a Morganti weapon, which he calls his "black > wand" (not yet capitalized) from Sethra Lavode, as tribute. Well > enough handled, yet something is still missing; I find it hard to > believe that that event alone constitutes the fulfillment > of the multiple prophecies to which we have been privy. In other > words, he still needs a soul for his sword -- and if not, well, > I confess I find the account lacking. I found the receiving of the black wand way to easy. Sethra just gave it to him. Wasn't he supposed to find it in a lake or something like that? What's with all the dreams of a lake if Sethra just gives him the sword? However, I do agree that it still needs to receive a soul. > > * The matter of Zerika's Eastern lover is explained to some > degree. My naturally suspicious mind leads me to make the > following supposition: Laszlo is Noish-pa. Evidence? They are > both witches; Noish-pa has a feline familiar; they are both from > South Adrilankha; Arra presents a precedent for the > life-extension techniques of Eastern witches; Laszlo himself > presumably survives in Vlad's time, as Zerika is still rumored to > have an Eastern lover; we have never heard Noish-pa's proper > name. Evidence to the contrary: Vlad's father, and/or mother, > presumably are descended from Noish-pa, yet we do not know if > easterners and dragaereans can interbreed that I recall; Morrolan > knows Laszlo and has met Noish-pa without expressing recognition; > Laszlo seems more comfortable with elfs than Noish-pa. > Conclusion: we do not know, yet I suspect some connection at > least. Evidence to the contrary: Vlad was not a citizen of the Empire until his father bought a title in the Jhereg. Its mentioned in one of the books (probablly _Taltos_ or _Jhereg_) that Vlad only received his link to the Orb when his father purchased the title. However, in LoCB, Laszlo is given a hereditary Emperial title, which means any children he has would be citizens and have a link to the Orb, much like Vlad became a citizen when his father gained a Jhereg title. > > * Morrolan's floating castle is quite probably held up by, as > Vlad surmised, a rune wrought in the features of the terrain > below it that continually tells the castle "Don't fall down." I seem to recall Morrolan saying he was close to being able to perform the task sorcerously. > > * I would be very much amused by a Vlad novel told from > Morrolan's perspective. Agreed Jag From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Sat Aug 16 11:15:31 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 14:15:31 -0400 Subject: Great Weapons (possible LoCB spoiler) In-Reply-To: References: <20030816050905.GA2053@infodancer.org> <20030816062546.GB2053@infodancer.org> <20030816071448.GE2053@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <3F3E74C3.8000800@earthlink.net> Philip Hart wrote: >commune with based on her ancestry). This sort of begs the question, why >risk the well-bound Morrolan, but on the one hand since PF and GS seem to >be related the gods would at worst get two for one, and on the same hand >perhaps the gods could somehow know M would escape. > > This last comment reminded me of Verra's conversation with the gods regarding Morrolan (dammit, why am I always away from my books when I get these thoughts?!), in which she mentions his sorcerous potential and how it could go further into the study of Pre-Empire sorcery. One of the gods mentions that Morrolan won't be able to create chaos (alluding, I assume, to that ability that seems restricted to the e'Kieron line), but Verra replies that they might find a way to work around that. All of the sudden, I wonder about that vial containing the blood of a goddess and I wonder what the exact origins of the chaos-creating ability might be. Maybe Verra spawned that particular line, and so the e'Kierons are able to create chaos because of Verra's blood. Or maybe Devera is the goddess (hey, it could happen! Time travel!) whose blood Morrolan assimilated, and thus he might get the double benefit of leaving the Paths alive as well as the ability to create chaos. I think the preceding demonstrates that I've been at work too long (any time at work on a Saturday is by definition too long) Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sat Aug 16 11:21:55 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 11:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Great Weapons ( LoCB spoiler) In-Reply-To: <3F3E74C3.8000800@earthlink.net> References: <20030816050905.GA2053@infodancer.org> <20030816062546.GB2053@infodancer.org> <20030816071448.GE2053@infodancer.org> <3F3E74C3.8000800@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Jose Marquez wrote: > This last comment reminded me of Verra's conversation with the gods > regarding Morrolan (dammit, why am I always away from my books when I > get these thoughts?!), in which she mentions his sorcerous potential and > how it could go further into the study of Pre-Empire sorcery. One of the > gods mentions that Morrolan won't be able to create chaos (alluding, I > assume, to that ability that seems restricted to the e'Kieron line), but > Verra replies that they might find a way to work around that. All of the > sudden, I wonder about that vial containing the blood of a goddess and I > wonder what the exact origins of the chaos-creating ability might be. > Maybe Verra spawned that particular line, and so the e'Kierons are able > to create chaos because of Verra's blood. Or maybe Devera is the goddess > (hey, it could happen! Time travel!) whose blood Morrolan assimilated, > and thus he might get the double benefit of leaving the Paths alive as > well as the ability to create chaos. Maybe BW ate an e'Kieron... Note that in _Phoenix_ we see Aliera using PF in some capacity when she does pre-Empire sorcery. From kisc at insaneninjahero.com Sat Aug 16 11:29:56 2003 From: kisc at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 12:29:56 -0600 Subject: Great Weapons ( LoCB spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU] > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 12:22 PM > To: Jose Marquez > Cc: Dragaera > Subject: Re: Great Weapons ( LoCB spoiler) > > On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Jose Marquez wrote: > > > This last comment reminded me of Verra's conversation with the gods > > regarding Morrolan (dammit, why am I always away from my books when I > > get these thoughts?!), in which she mentions his sorcerous potential and > > how it could go further into the study of Pre-Empire sorcery. One of the > > gods mentions that Morrolan won't be able to create chaos (alluding, I > > assume, to that ability that seems restricted to the e'Kieron line), but > > Verra replies that they might find a way to work around that. All of the > > sudden, I wonder about that vial containing the blood of a goddess and I > > wonder what the exact origins of the chaos-creating ability might be. > > Maybe Verra spawned that particular line, and so the e'Kierons are able > > to create chaos because of Verra's blood. Or maybe Devera is the goddess > > (hey, it could happen! Time travel!) whose blood Morrolan assimilated, > > and thus he might get the double benefit of leaving the Paths alive as > > well as the ability to create chaos. > > Maybe BW ate an e'Kieron... Note that in _Phoenix_ we see Aliera using PF > in some capacity when she does pre-Empire sorcery. > > Doesn't Morrolan say something to Vlad about BW being his witch's familiar at one point? Perhaps Aleira uses PF in that sort of capacity for pre-empire sorcery as well. You know what I'd like to know, I'd like to know how wands help channel power and whatnot. Do they take some of the load like Loiosh does, thus allowing a more powerful spell to be cast? Do they function more as a point of focus for the power, and if so, why? Then, what limitations does Black Wand have which the ring/wand of M's would not (aside from being less useful in extra-planar situations... and why is BW less powerful in extra-planar situations?) Kisc From usagigoya at hotmail.com Sat Aug 16 11:41:12 2003 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 18:41:12 +0000 Subject: Great Weapons Message-ID: >From: Matthew Hunter -0500 > >In addition, Vlad's interaction [with Baritt] consists of >little more than "I don't like him. I will arrange for him to die." >He didn't settle down and research the guy. > I must be missing your point... I do not recall any connection between Barritt's death and Vlad, beyond the fact that the House Jhereg were connected in an "unofficial" way (a Jhereg did the hit as a favor for persons outside the Jhereg, and for reasons which did not concern House Jhereg), and that Vlad uncovered the persons responsible and their motives. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From greyw01f at hotmail.com Sat Aug 16 11:45:03 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 18:45:03 +0000 Subject: Great Weapons ( LoCB spoiler) Message-ID: Wands serve a double purpose; they focus energy like a magnifying glass does sun, and they are themselves a focus for the magician's intention. Not to mention a sword-wand would be able to do a good number of other things. :P I mentioned in a private email that I meant to send to the list that I wouldn't be surprised if Sethra gave Vlad the blood of the goddess knowing it would formulate teh only possible way to get morrolan out of the paths. Jon
 
----Original Message Follows---- From: "Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert" To: "Dragaera" Subject: RE: Great Weapons ( LoCB spoiler) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 12:29:56 -0600 > -----Original Message----- > From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU] > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 12:22 PM > To: Jose Marquez > Cc: Dragaera > Subject: Re: Great Weapons ( LoCB spoiler) > > On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Jose Marquez wrote: > > > This last comment reminded me of Verra's conversation with the gods > > regarding Morrolan (dammit, why am I always away from my books when I > > get these thoughts?!), in which she mentions his sorcerous potential and > > how it could go further into the study of Pre-Empire sorcery. One of the > > gods mentions that Morrolan won't be able to create chaos (alluding, I > > assume, to that ability that seems restricted to the e'Kieron line), but > > Verra replies that they might find a way to work around that. All of the > > sudden, I wonder about that vial containing the blood of a goddess and I > > wonder what the exact origins of the chaos-creating ability might be. > > Maybe Verra spawned that particular line, and so the e'Kierons are able > > to create chaos because of Verra's blood. Or maybe Devera is the goddess > > (hey, it could happen! Time travel!) whose blood Morrolan assimilated, > > and thus he might get the double benefit of leaving the Paths alive as > > well as the ability to create chaos. > > Maybe BW ate an e'Kieron... Note that in _Phoenix_ we see Aliera using PF > in some capacity when she does pre-Empire sorcery. > > Doesn't Morrolan say something to Vlad about BW being his witch's familiar at one point? Perhaps Aleira uses PF in that sort of capacity for pre-empire sorcery as well. You know what I'd like to know, I'd like to know how wands help channel power and whatnot. Do they take some of the load like Loiosh does, thus allowing a more powerful spell to be cast? Do they function more as a point of focus for the power, and if so, why? Then, what limitations does Black Wand have which the ring/wand of M's would not (aside from being less useful in extra-planar situations... and why is BW less powerful in extra-planar situations?) Kisc _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From davids at kithrup.com Sat Aug 16 11:56:01 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 11:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: <20030816062546.GB2053@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: >On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 10:53:14PM -0700, Philip Hart > wrote: > >> On the subject, I would like to once again assert that Morrolan's taking >> Blackwand into the Paths, when he fully expects to be staying, is an >> annoying flaw in _Taltos_, which if anyone can explain away I'd be >> grateful. > >I see several possibilities, of which one or more may be >sufficient: > >1) Morrolan didn't think of it (*very* likely given his attitude > in LoCB). >2) Sethra knew Vlad could get him out. >3) The Gods would see that the weapon made its way to some useful > soul. > By the way, you forgot here: 4) Morrolan becomes Officially Undead, and walks out (with Blackwand). This would have been inconvenient for him, but I suspect that neither the Gods, nor Sethra, nor even Morrolan himself, would have balked at that if that were the *only* way out. Obviously, he wouldn't have become Court Wizard in that case, but that was in his future anyway. It might also have caused problems with any marriage he might wish to contract in order to continue the e'Drien line. And it might have put a crimp in his social life, and in his standing with the Dragon Council. But perhaps he could compensate somewhat in taking necromancy lessons from Sethra & the Necromancer. From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Sat Aug 16 12:06:22 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 12:06:22 -0700 Subject: [SPOILERS] _The Lord of Castle Black_ In-Reply-To: <1061057153.2110.7.camel@loiosh> References: <20030803003459.GA863@infodancer.org> <1061057153.2110.7.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: On 16 Aug 2003 14:05:54 -0400, you wrote: > > >I'm just now catching up with the list since I just now finished the >book.. hopefully no one's already said what I'm about to say. > > >> * Morrolan receives a Morganti weapon, which he calls his "black >> wand" (not yet capitalized) from Sethra Lavode, as tribute. Well >> enough handled, yet something is still missing; I find it hard to >> believe that that event alone constitutes the fulfillment >> of the multiple prophecies to which we have been privy. In other >> words, he still needs a soul for his sword -- and if not, well, >> I confess I find the account lacking. > >I found the receiving of the black wand way to easy. Sethra just gave >it to him. Wasn't he supposed to find it in a lake or something like >that? What's with all the dreams of a lake if Sethra just gives him the >sword? However, I do agree that it still needs to receive a soul. Which lends more credence to the theory that it's not a full GW yet, but still needs something else. The lake may come into play next book. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From matthew at infodancer.org Sat Aug 16 12:17:43 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 14:17:43 -0500 Subject: [NO SPOILERS] _The Lord of Castle Black_ In-Reply-To: <1061057153.2110.7.camel@loiosh> References: <20030803003459.GA863@infodancer.org> <1061057153.2110.7.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: <20030816191743.GM2053@infodancer.org> On Sat, Aug 16, 2003 at 02:05:54PM -0400, Jag wrote: > On Sat, 2003-08-02 at 20:35, Matthew Hunter wrote: > > * I would be very much amused by a Vlad novel told from > > Morrolan's perspective. > Agreed [...] And then the snarky Easterner had the gall to glare at me, with his two filthy reptiles making stifled noises that resembled, more than anything else, laughter! I contented myself with the thought that I could slaughter the upstart in mere moments if I chose -- but for now, damn it all, I needed his help. [...] -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From Gaertk at aol.com Sat Aug 16 12:25:59 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 15:25:59 -0400 Subject: [no SPOILERS] nor anything to do with LOCB Message-ID: <5A45F60B.043981D0.00048EA6@aol.com> Jag writes: > Vlad was not a citizen of the Empire until his father > bought a title in the Jhereg. ?Its mentioned in one of the > books (probablly _Taltos_ or _Jhereg_) that Vlad only > received his link to the Orb when his father purchased the > title. I want to debate this point. Didn't Vlad begin his sorcery training befoe his father bought the title? I'd guess the family was Teckla before that point (or maybe Vlad's mother was a citizen). --KG From melalvai at kemenel.org Sat Aug 16 12:29:51 2003 From: melalvai at kemenel.org (Rachel L. Ruhlen) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 14:29:51 -0500 Subject: [SPOILERS] Dumas parallels In-Reply-To: <20030803193209.GD9964@infodancer.org> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Hunter [mailto:matthew at infodancer.org] Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 2:32 PM To: Dragaera Mailing List Subject: Re: [SPOILERS] _The Lord of Castle Black_ > > > > [SPOILERS below] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [snip] > > > Raoul, the Vicomte de Bragelone loves Louise de la Valliere. This love is, > at least at first, returned. But after she joins the royal court, she is > successfully wooed by the king, and becomes his mistress, thus breaking > Raoul's heart. > The parallel is not close, but definitely seems present, at least to me. >Hmm. Zerika would find it difficult to fulfill that parallel, I >think. Well, Brust is not trying to parallel Dumas' Three Musketeers series exactly. That would be boring (in my opinion). He's got just enough in there that the parallels amuse & surprise the reader, rather than making the Khaavren romances predictable to those who have read Dumas. For example, Tazendra never married, as Porthos had. I believe he was partly relieved to die a glorious death because it freed him from his wife. So, Zerika will not fulfill that parallel of King Louis. In fact, perhaps no one will. Ibronka may remain true to Piro and break his heart some other way (ie, by dying). Rachel From melalvai at kemenel.org Sat Aug 16 13:00:33 2003 From: melalvai at kemenel.org (Rachel L. Ruhlen) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 15:00:33 -0500 Subject: Nice Jenoine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU] >Vlad knows something about history. And he's curious. And he has a I just had a thought. Vlad had a Dragaeran tutor to teach him some history. What if that tutor was Paarfi? >I think they didn't come clothed. I think they told Vlad that if he >mentioned the truth they'd filet him. Note the Jenoine provided a chamber >pot - nice touch on their part. The Jenoine (until the battle at the end of Issola, anyway) view them as pets. We provide a litter box for our cat. So I don't think it particularly nice of them. Rachel From melalvai at kemenel.org Sat Aug 16 13:00:33 2003 From: melalvai at kemenel.org (Rachel L. Ruhlen) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 15:00:33 -0500 Subject: The usual Orca spoiler In-Reply-To: <20030816071448.GE2053@infodancer.org> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Hunter [mailto:matthew at infodancer.org] >> > 2) Sethra knew Vlad could get him out. >> She couldn't. Vlad nearly kills himself with his spell, and barely thinks >> to do it. >She gave him the vial. We know she has access to prophetic >methods. There's no way to know WHY she gave it to him, if not >for that specific purpose, without her telling us; until she >does, it must remain a possibility. What if Devera gave Sethra the vial and told her to get it to Vlad, that he would need it? Devera can cavort about the timeline as she pleases, apparently. Rachel From melalvai at kemenel.org Sat Aug 16 13:21:12 2003 From: melalvai at kemenel.org (Rachel L. Ruhlen) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 15:21:12 -0500 Subject: Tedious lapse In-Reply-To: <3F3AB2A6.4070606@comcast.net> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Mia McDavid [mailto:mia_mcdavid at comcast.net] >It would certainly be dreary for a human to have a lover that took ill >and died every few decades; one would then have to find his >reincarnation and wait for it to attain adulthood; a most tedious lapse. This reminds of a story or movie I read or saw. I only remember it vaguely. Maybe someone else would recognize it? The main character made a foolish vow at some point not to die until he had made good for a mistake he made that had resulted in the death of his beloved, and ended up tracking her soul every time she died, and hadn't yet succeeded in rectifying his error. Orson Scott Card, maybe? Rachel From melalvai at kemenel.org Sat Aug 16 13:21:12 2003 From: melalvai at kemenel.org (Rachel L. Ruhlen) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 15:21:12 -0500 Subject: The usual Orca spoiler In-Reply-To: Message-ID: After reading further through the back-log of messages, I came across this, showing that I was not at all the first to have the idea. Jose Marquez, from message Re: Great Weapons (possible LoCB spoiler) wrote: >to create chaos because of Verra's blood. Or maybe Devera is the goddess >(hey, it could happen! Time travel!) whose blood Morrolan assimilated, >and thus he might get the double benefit of leaving the Paths alive as >well as the ability to create chaos. -----Original Message----- From: Rachel L. Ruhlen [mailto:melalvai at kemenel.org] Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 3:01 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: The usual Orca spoiler -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Hunter [mailto:matthew at infodancer.org] >> > 2) Sethra knew Vlad could get him out. >> She couldn't. Vlad nearly kills himself with his spell, and barely thinks >> to do it. >She gave him the vial. We know she has access to prophetic >methods. There's no way to know WHY she gave it to him, if not >for that specific purpose, without her telling us; until she >does, it must remain a possibility. What if Devera gave Sethra the vial and told her to get it to Vlad, that he would need it? Devera can cavort about the timeline as she pleases, apparently. Rachel From davids at kithrup.com Sat Aug 16 13:24:35 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 13:24:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The usual Orca spoiler In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As noted in the subject line, contains a huge spoiler for /Orca/. On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Rachel L. Ruhlen wrote: > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Matthew Hunter [mailto:matthew at infodancer.org] > >>> > 2) Sethra knew Vlad could get him out. >>> She couldn't. Vlad nearly kills himself with his spell, >>> and barely thinks to do it. > >>She gave him the vial. We know she has access to prophetic >>methods. There's no way to know WHY she gave it to him, if not >>for that specific purpose, without her telling us; until she >>does, it must remain a possibility. > >What if Devera gave Sethra the vial and told her to get it to Vlad, >that he would need it? Devera can cavort about the timeline as she >pleases, apparently. > No, Kiera stated that Verra gave her the vial, and *she* (Verra) wan't sure why (in /Orca/). I see no reason to doubt this statement. But I think you are thinking in the right direction. Devera *was* there, waking Vlad up, after he did the teleport. Devera might well have told her grandma that she (Verra) needed to give a vial of blood to Sethra to give to Vlad "so that things will work out right. Pleeeease, granma?" ( Verra: "You know, *most* grandchildren would ask for a sweet..." ) From melalvai at kemenel.org Sat Aug 16 13:31:15 2003 From: melalvai at kemenel.org (Rachel L. Ruhlen) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 15:31:15 -0500 Subject: Paresh and "Arylle" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU] >For what it's worth, I find Paresh's account highly implausible, and the >identification with T/A even more so. That P would have solitary >unfettered access for so long to a library, especially if that's >Tazendra's library (surely Khaavren would have overseen the disbursal of >the estate even if everybody else is dead), seems unlikely. That a Lyorn >would (deign to) attack him with sorcery seems further unlikely. That a >Lyorn would physically show up in person to find someone (especially >post-interregnum, when he could use the Orb to phone ahead, or have a >servant phone ahead) I consider absolutely impossible. Ridiculous, in >fact. And almost impossible to reconcile with any other House but perhaps >the Dzur - which would make the rest of the story ludicrous. That P would >escape unpursued and unexecuted still more unlikely (I think the nobles >would restrict access to such power and go to some trouble to track him >down - say, call up all his chattels and have them grab any odd Tecklas >they see - or use some sorcerous tracking method. Though presumably P >could teleport after a year's concentrated study - well, there's an arms >race in assumptions which I assert the superior sorcerer Arylle would >win.) You're thinking like an Easterner. Dragaerans have no reason to hurry. Probably Paresh's account of his brave exploits are exaggerated, but the skeleton of the story may well be true. The Duke of Arylle may have tried, unsuccessfully, to contact Tazendra with sorcery, and eventually showed up in person because he was unable to "call" ahead. Perhaps the sorcerous attack was true, perhaps an exaggeration of Paresh's. Other than that, well, Paresh just wasn't worth chasing. The Duke had better things to do. Extreme measures to catch someone worthless are only taken when that worthless someone has pissed off someone important (I'm thinking about Vlad here). Rachel From davids at kithrup.com Sat Aug 16 13:34:13 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 13:34:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The usual Orca spoiler In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > >As noted in the subject line, contains a huge spoiler for /Orca/. With corrections, after checking the book... >On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Rachel L. Ruhlen wrote: > >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Matthew Hunter [mailto:matthew at infodancer.org] >> >>>> > 2) Sethra knew Vlad could get him out. >>>> She couldn't. Vlad nearly kills himself with his spell, >>>> and barely thinks to do it. >> >>>She gave him the vial. We know she has access to prophetic >>>methods. There's no way to know WHY she gave it to him, if not >>>for that specific purpose, without her telling us; until she >>>does, it must remain a possibility. >> >>What if Devera gave Sethra the vial and told her to get it to Vlad, >>that he would need it? Devera can cavort about the timeline as she >>pleases, apparently. >> > >No, Kiera stated that Verra gave her the vial, and *she* (Verra) >wan't sure why (in /Orca/). I see no reason to doubt this statement. Hmm. I see I lied, here. *Vlad* says he figured out which goddess, and Kiera says that the goddess didn't know why. But I don't think that indicates that it was Devera. >But I think you are thinking in the right direction. Devera *was* >there, waking Vlad up, after he did the teleport. Devera might well >have told her grandma that she (Verra) needed to give a vial of blood >to Sethra to give to Vlad "so that things will work out right. >Pleeeease, granma?" > >( Verra: "You know, *most* grandchildren would ask for a sweet..." ) > Or possibly, [future] Verra talked to [past] Verra, and told her what needed to be done. From matthew at infodancer.org Sat Aug 16 13:50:38 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 15:50:38 -0500 Subject: Tedious lapse In-Reply-To: References: <3F3AB2A6.4070606@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20030816205032.GC6959@infodancer.org> On Sat, Aug 16, 2003 at 03:21:12PM -0500, "Rachel L. Ruhlen" wrote: > This reminds of a story or movie I read or saw. I only remember it vaguely. > Maybe someone else would recognize it? The main character made a foolish vow > at some point not to die until he had made good for a mistake he made that > had resulted in the death of his beloved, and ended up tracking her soul > every time she died, and hadn't yet succeeded in rectifying his error. Orson > Scott Card, maybe? Various of the Deverry books, by Katherine Kerr, have a karmic knot of this type. More would be a spoiler. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From davids at kithrup.com Sat Aug 16 14:08:40 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 14:08:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Paresh and "Arylle" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >For what it's worth, I find Paresh's account highly implausible, and >the identification with T/A even more so. That P would have solitary >unfettered access for so long to a library, especially if that's >Tazendra's library (surely Khaavren would have overseen the disbursal >of the estate even if everybody else is dead), seems unlikely. You are assuming that Khaavren, or anyone else who knew her, would know that she was dead. Although I admit that it is odd that her absence could go for so long without any investigation (tax collectors & other auditors, at least, might well show up). But perhaps the explosion was part of an attack on the entire region, and the Duke himself was a casualty. A minor Baroness might not have warranted further note than "She got hit too". Although that doesn't make sense since the Lyorn doesn't seem to know that the attack took place. Hm. >That a Lyorn would (deign to) attack him with sorcery seems further >unlikely. Why? You are perhaps assuming that all Lyorns are of impeccable character. As we see with Shaltre, this is not the case. > That a Lyorn would physically show up in person to find someone >(especially post-interregnum, when he could use the Orb to phone >ahead, or have a servant phone ahead) I consider absolutely >impossible. But if this Lyorn is the heir of Temma, rather than being Temma himself, he wouldn't know who the Baroness was, and thus would not be able to contact her psionically. Ditto regarding servants - all of the servants of the Baron might well be dead and thus unable to respond. In fact, I can see this situation as follows: the young Lyorn is the *new* Duke of Arylle, and he's wondering why the Barony's tax rolls have not arrived. He tells his servants to contact anyone in the Barony that they know, and receive no response. He wonders if perhaps the Baron is in rebellion, and decides to go and check things out for himself, perhaps in order to assert his authority. There's things wrong with that scenario as well - why would none of the Teckla of the Duke's lands tell the Duke about the incident? Unless he really is so new on the scene that he has no contacts among the locals at all. Hm. That does kind of make sense. >That P would escape unpursued and unexecuted still more unlikely (I >think the nobles would restrict access to such power and go to some >trouble to track him down - say, call up all his chattels and have >them grab any odd Tecklas they see - or use some sorcerous tracking >method. Though presumably P could teleport after a year's >concentrated study - well, there's an arms race in assumptions which >I assert the superior sorcerer Arylle would win.) I do find it odd that his teleports were not traced. He - Paresh - was the most likely suspect for having caused the death of the Baron, and thus at the very least might well have been tracked down, imprisoned, and interrogated. But perhaps the young Lyorn is less good at the forensic aspects of sorcery. > >It's possible that Aerich doesn't make it out of the Viscountiad and >Arylle is not a Lyorn and that Paresh and Vlad are accurate in their >account and I'm entirely deluded, As already suggested, it appears all too likely that the young Lyorn cannot possibly be Aerich, which indicates that Aerich is, during Vlad's time, defunct. Regardless of whether the young Lyorn is a usurper or legitimate heir, he would not have *called* himself the Duke of Arylle unless the former Duke was no longer around to dispute the claim. > >On Wed, 13 Aug 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: > >> > I don't see Aerich dying off--I am in the process of reading _Teckla_ and >> > Paresh, a Teckla, is recounting his history to Vlad--he mentions Aerich, or >> > at least, the Duke of Arylle, coming to the door and asking for his Master, >> > presumably about why he wasn't receiving his tribute/tithe whatever. (Cause >> > of a massive fire that killed everyone but Paresh). It was interesting to >> > see how the character changes when it's not Paarfi recounting the history. >> > But then, Paresh is Dragaeran, and so the story he tells might well have >> > been before the Duke of Arylle is presumably killed in _Sethra_. >> >> Paresh's story doesn't actually bode well for our Aerich. Quoting my >> timeline again: >> >> ??? PI >> [Miscellaneous events that aren't exactly dated, but are Post-Interregnum >> and Pre-Vlad.] >> >> Paresh grows up in a Dzurlord's home (Tk 27). >> At 60, Paresh gets land (Tk 28). >> At 80, Paresh's loans are paid off (Tk 28). >> At 81, Paresh's home burns down (Tk 28-29). [This implies subtly that >> his master is Tazendra, who has some history of exploding experiments (FH >> 52, 434-435). Her literary model, Porthos, was also noted for his >> extensive (if largely unread) library.] >> Paresh spends "most of a year" learning sorcery (Tk 30). >> Paresh fights Aerich's son(?) (Tk 31-32). [Paresh was almost certainly >> born after the Interregnum, since sorcery figures highly in his biography, >> and he makes no mention of any interruption of it. He battles "The Duke >> of Arylle", who is "about my age" (in Dragaaeran terms, quite a young man). >> We can infer that Aerich has either died or retired. His literary model, >> Athos, died and left his estate to an adopted son in _The Man in the Iron >> Mask_. The Duke refers to Paresh's master as "him", but this is probably >> a mistranslation of the genderless Dragaeran pronoun on Brust's part (it >> being unlikely that Aerich's heir would be either misinformed or rude).] >> From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Sat Aug 16 14:19:18 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 17:19:18 -0400 Subject: Tedious lapse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F3E9FD6.5040707@earthlink.net> Rachel L. Ruhlen wrote: >-----Original Message----- >From: Mia McDavid [mailto:mia_mcdavid at comcast.net] > > > >>It would certainly be dreary for a human to have a lover that took ill >>and died every few decades; one would then have to find his >>reincarnation and wait for it to attain adulthood; a most tedious lapse. >> >> > >This reminds of a story or movie I read or saw. I only remember it vaguely. >Maybe someone else would recognize it? The main character made a foolish vow >at some point not to die until he had made good for a mistake he made that >had resulted in the death of his beloved, and ended up tracking her soul >every time she died, and hadn't yet succeeded in rectifying his error. Orson >Scott Card, maybe? > > From your description, I thought of Star Trek. I don't know if it was in a movie (none come to mind) or in an episode, but I seem to recall similar circumstances being central to the plot of whatever it was. Hopefully there's someone on this list that can remember better than I can... Jose -- Jose Marquez \ Cthulhu 2004 jhereg69 at earthlink.net \ Why vote for http://home.earthlink.net/~jhereg69 \ the lesser evil? From alexx at TheWorld.com Sat Aug 16 15:04:48 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 18:04:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas) In-Reply-To: <20030816010323.GA3841@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> from "Steve Simmons" at Aug 15, 2003 09:03:23 PM Message-ID: <200308162204.SAA12723155@shell.TheWorld.com> > > And real spoilers for ISSOLA. > > On Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 04:11:33PM -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > > Spoiler space, so I can stop talking around possible future spoiles. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Morrolan has a big Morganti weapon he refers to as his "black wand" > > (note the lack of capitalization), and which none of the better-informed > > people in his retinue have yet referred to as a Great Weapon. > > > > Remember, in _Issola_, how a powerful Morganti blade only became a GW > > when combined with a human soul? I believe that we'll be seeing a > > similar scene at some point in _Sethra Lavode_. > > If I'm reading Alexx correctly, he's saying that the 'black wand' > will become a Great Weapon and will bond with Morrolan only when > consuming a human soul, possibly combined with some other qualifying > event. Yes, that's what I'm saying (though I would say that "some other qualifying event" would be almost cetain, not merely possible). While we have textev that the first GWs were ceated by the Serioli "long ago", we have nothing terribly solid that says that they can't be created in "modern" times, given sufficient cause and resource (beyond the ridiculed-by-Vlad claim that there are exactly 17 of them). Here's one possible chain of events: Tazendra & Morolan meet under circumstances that, mistakenly, cause M to think that T is his enemy. M kills T. T's friends lament greatly and call M a thoughtless idiot for letting the soul of such a fine person be eaten. M asks Sethra, "So, is there any way to fix this?" Sethra says, "Only if you had a GW." M seeks out a Serioli GW expert (we know from _Dragon_ that he's met one) and convinces him to either do the job, or teach M how to do it himself. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "Where do we keep all our chainsaws, mom?" -- Calvin From alexx at TheWorld.com Sat Aug 16 15:10:17 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 18:10:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: <20030816062546.GB2053@infodancer.org> from "Matthew Hunter" at Aug 16, 2003 01:25:46 AM Message-ID: <200308162210.SAA12643107@shell.TheWorld.com> > I confess that I am still puzzled as to why Aliera's soul was > sufficiently valuable to be retrieved from the Paths by such > extreme and unprecedently measures. Morrolan got the idea into his head. Once that happens, not even Sethra Lavode is likely to be able to convince him to stop :-) Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "Intelligence is the ability to perceive patterns. Genius is the ability to perceive patterns where the bulk of mankind cannnot. Scholarship is the ability to perceive patterns where there aren't any." -- Michael J. Moran From melalvai at kemenel.org Sat Aug 16 17:16:11 2003 From: melalvai at kemenel.org (Rachel L. Ruhlen) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 19:16:11 -0500 Subject: Phoenix (was Re: Mario the Mystery) In-Reply-To: <20030805043722.94408.qmail@web13808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jon Carey wrote: Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Steve Hubbell [mailto:usagigoya at hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 5:24 PM To: simbelmyne at softhome.net; dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Physical book defects and such (No SPOILERS) >Anyone else have "BLUE FINGERTIPS" after prolonged holding or reading of >this book? The contents were excellent as always with a book written by >SKZB! Hear, hear. I took the book to the airport where I was supposed to meet my family. I did not count on my hands being sweaty. Or the drop of water that was splashed on it which resulted in my jammies being blue where I had laid the book on my lap. Brust books really leave their mark on the reader, huh? Fortunately it washed off. Rachel From davids at kithrup.com Sat Aug 16 17:16:43 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 17:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: <200308162210.SAA12643107@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: > >> I confess that I am still puzzled as to why Aliera's soul was >> sufficiently valuable to be retrieved from the Paths by such >> extreme and unprecedently measures. > >Morrolan got the idea into his head. Once that happens, not even >Sethra Lavode is likely to be able to convince him to stop :-) > Er. Morrolan wouldn't have even known he had a cousin whose soul was in a staff if Sethra hadn't told him where it was. Although - now I find myself wondering if perhaps Verra knew and put the idea into his head... From davids at kithrup.com Sat Aug 16 18:36:47 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 18:36:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [no SPOILERS] nor anything to do with LOCB In-Reply-To: <5A45F60B.043981D0.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >Jag writes: > >> Vlad was not a citizen of the Empire until his father >> bought a title in the Jhereg. ?Its mentioned in one of the >> books (probablly _Taltos_ or _Jhereg_) that Vlad only >> received his link to the Orb when his father purchased the >> title. > >I want to debate this point. Didn't Vlad begin his sorcery >training befoe his father bought the title? How? No title, no Orb link. No Orb link, no sorcery. > I'd guess the family was Teckla before that point (or maybe Vlad's >mother was a citizen). Not from what I remember. Easterners, in and of themselves, are not one of the Dragaeran Houses. They could have sworn fealty to a Lord and become Teckla, but they didn't. There are perhaps reasons for not doing so. From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Sat Aug 16 19:03:07 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 22:03:07 -0400 Subject: [no SPOILERS] nor anything to do with LOCB In-Reply-To: <5A45F60B.043981D0.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <5A45F60B.043981D0.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030817020307.GA1389@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Sat, Aug 16, 2003 at 03:25:59PM -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > Didn't Vlad begin his sorcery > training befoe his father bought the title? Nope, he began his witchcraft training before then. -- "I don't like being quoted." -- anonymous From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Sat Aug 16 19:04:46 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 22:04:46 -0400 Subject: Nice Jenoine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030817020446.GB1389@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Sat, Aug 16, 2003 at 03:00:33PM -0500, Rachel L. Ruhlen wrote: > >Vlad knows something about history. And he's curious. And he has a > > I just had a thought. Vlad had a Dragaeran tutor to teach him some history. > What if that tutor was Paarfi? Judging from Paarfis critics comments on his accuracy, it would explain a lot about Vlad. -- "I don't like being quoted." -- anonymous From matthew at infodancer.org Sat Aug 16 19:06:30 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 21:06:30 -0500 Subject: [no SPOILERS] nor anything to do with LOCB In-Reply-To: References: <5A45F60B.043981D0.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030817020630.GG7760@infodancer.org> On Sat, Aug 16, 2003 at 06:36:47PM -0700, David Silberstein wrote: > On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > >Jag writes: > >> Vlad was not a citizen of the Empire until his father > >> bought a title in the Jhereg. ?Its mentioned in one of the > >> books (probablly _Taltos_ or _Jhereg_) that Vlad only > >> received his link to the Orb when his father purchased the > >> title. > >I want to debate this point. Didn't Vlad begin his sorcery > >training befoe his father bought the title? > How? No title, no Orb link. No Orb link, no sorcery. We do not know whether Vlad was a citizen before his father bought a title. I suspect that he was, simply because Teckla are, and they also have no title. > > I'd guess the family was Teckla before that point (or maybe Vlad's > >mother was a citizen). > Not from what I remember. > Easterners, in and of themselves, are not one of the Dragaeran Houses. > They could have sworn fealty to a Lord and become Teckla, but they > didn't. There are perhaps reasons for not doing so. I suspect that citizenship is not necessarily the same as House membership. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From mam at theworld.com Sat Aug 16 19:19:45 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 22:19:45 -0400 Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030809224052.01dc8100@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Aug 2003, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: #At 19:44 08/09/2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: # #>Brust has Dragaera so carefully and consistently laid out that I #>wouldn't be surprised if he chose the 30-hour day specifically to make #>the hours and the 172-day years both come out about equal to ours, so he # #I take it that "172" is actually 17^2 (17 squared)? (sigh) Yes, that's what happens when I copy text from my web page to ASCII. The web page has the "2" superscript. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Sat Aug 16 21:57:36 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 21:57:36 -0700 Subject: Phoenix (was Re: Mario the Mystery) In-Reply-To: References: <20030805043722.94408.qmail@web13808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7p2ujvs12ikvsncv6akhk9u4k2um3vl03g@4ax.com> On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 19:16:11 -0500, you wrote: >About Easterners mating with Phoenix--or any Dragaeran. I bet it happens a >lot more than anyone lets on, but that most of the births to Easterner >mothers and the offspring is raised as an Easterner. Probably isn't >frequent, but with the recent influx of Easterners into the Empire, it's >gotta happen if it is possible. But do we ever hear about Eastern/human half breeds? -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From davids at kithrup.com Sun Aug 17 00:44:45 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 00:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Phoenix (was Re: Mario the Mystery) In-Reply-To: <7p2ujvs12ikvsncv6akhk9u4k2um3vl03g@4ax.com> Message-ID: Spoilers for "Brokedown Palace", beware... On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, lazarus wrote: >On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 19:16:11 -0500, you wrote: > >>About Easterners mating with Phoenix--or any Dragaeran. I bet it happens a >>lot more than anyone lets on, but that most of the births to Easterner >>mothers and the offspring is raised as an Easterner. Probably isn't >>frequent, but with the recent influx of Easterners into the Empire, it's >>gotta happen if it is possible. > >But do we ever hear about Eastern/human half breeds? > We do not, and Aliera has stated flat-out that it is impossible for Easterners and Dragaerans to breed. To the left, there is Brigitta. I suspect - but only suspect - that her father, a "demon", is in fact a Dragaeran (perhaps one with only minor powers in the Empire, he finds that in the East he can be a big shot). Aliera might simply be wrong on this, seeing as how she also stated flat-out that there was no genetic connection between Easterners and Dragaerans, and was later shown to be wrong by Sethra. From davids at kithrup.com Sun Aug 17 01:03:50 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 01:03:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [no SPOILERS] nor anything to do with LOCB In-Reply-To: <20030817020630.GG7760@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: > >We do not know whether Vlad was a citizen before his father >bought a title. I suspect that he was, simply because Teckla >are, and they also have no title. Teckla have no *title* but they are born with an Orb link, because they are members of a House in the Empire. Easterners are not. I would guess that anyone born in the Empire is, for all practical purposes (they can do business, they can be taxed) a citizen. There may be limits on that citizenship, though - I don't think Easterners are liable for conscription, from my memories of /Phoenix/ (perhaps because the conscription rules state something like "all able-bodied persons of more than 150 years of age", or something like that? :-) ). I think there's also something about Easterners not being able to join the Guard. Or in other words, Easterners may be classified as "partial citizens" or "residents", and the only way to becoming full "citizens" (with full rights and responsibilities pertaining thereto) is to join a House. From kknolte at ecity.net Sun Aug 17 01:01:39 2003 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 09:01:39 +0100 Subject: Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas) References: Message-ID: <3F3F365D.2156@ecity.net> David Silberstein wrote: > > On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Steve Simmons wrote: > > >And real spoilers for ISSOLA. > > > >> Spoiler space, so I can stop talking around possible future spoiles. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > At least part of the reason that speculation has tended toward > Tazendra's soul being bonded with Blackwand, though, is that the > fierce, female personality that Vlad senses from that weapon could > well be Tazendra, given that she is indeed so much a Dzur. > > >To me, this argues both that the capture of a soul is *not* part of > >the bonding process, but *may* be part of the assembly or re-assembly > >process. > > You may be correct. Question - is there any textevd in the books that humans (Dragaerans or Easterners) can be witch's familiars, as well as animals like jhereg and cats? It might make for an interesting twist if the soul involved really was Morrolan's (once fairly traditional, non-human) familiar. From greyw01f at hotmail.com Sun Aug 17 08:17:05 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 15:17:05 +0000 Subject: [no SPOILERS] nor anything to do with LOCB Message-ID: Okay, I've been reading the entire Vladiad, and I'm on Athyra, which puts the relevent information a couple books behind me. Vlad's family were _not_ citizens with any link to the orb until Vlad's dad bought into House Jhereg. Easterners are regarded as less than peasants. In _Phoenix_ it was *specifically* Easterners who were conscripted by the press gangs. Easterners cannot join the Guard. Easterners and Dragaerans have a genetic link, but whether that link is remote enough to cause sufficient special (that's spee-see-el) differentiation, and therefore prevent cross-breeding is unknown. Perhaps they may be able to cross-breed, but cannot produce viable offspring, like Horses and Mules can produce Donkeys, which are congenitally sterile. Jon _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net Sun Aug 17 10:32:00 2003 From: Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net (Daemian Spayde) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 10:32:00 -0700 Subject: Great Weapons (Issola Spoiler) References: Message-ID: <017101c364e5$775d56c0$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> Spoiler (sorta) Space I think using the GS method as justification isn't valid. In several of the Vladiad there are continuous foreshadowing to the fact that Vlad should name the Chain (_Taltos_), or that it "hasn't woken up", or that "SHE is not altogether here" (_Dragon_). I feel that the (re-)Creation of GS is completely and utterly about 'Predestination', since it has been alluded to since I don't know when. In fact, the events circulating around A getting PF could also be described as a limited predestination. No one has pointed out the other fact that the Great Weapons are a Draegeran "thing" (for lack of a better word), yet an Easterner is now (has been?) the possessor of one. Doesn't that kind of 'screw' with the whole concept? I feel that the 17 GWs are all controlled by a form of Pre-destination, and are Destined to arrive in whomever's hands they arrive in. In otherwords "It was meant to be." Katt President, Southern California IFGS socal.ifgs.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Carey" To: Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 9:35 AM Subject: Great Weapons > > Okay, here's my take (my two cents) on GWs. > > 1) A Great Weapon is different from a regular Morganti weapon in that a) it > is vastly more powerful b) its sentience is on another level (a Morganti is > just feral and murderous, whereas a GW can be calculating as well) > > These two differences and their implications (notably, that they can act > according to their own agenda, given the opportunity, and that agenda is not > just drink all the souls you can) seem to imply that each GW is imbued with > a soul. > > However, I would argue that the Serioli smiths put in a good number of > failsafes. Morganti weapons were created to make the idea of war so > horrible that no one would ever partake in any, ever again. This obviously > doesn't work in reality, but I think the same idea was behind the use of the > Great Weapons as well as the idea that this world would need some defense > against the Gods (among whom you will find the Jenoine--they ARE gods of a > sort) > > So, A Great Weapons also > 2) has an agenda of its own, possibly built in by the Serioli. > > 3) A great weapon, as one of its failsafes, has a certain key to its use. > That key is an external soul, that wields this weapon. PF only seems to > work to its full potential when Aliera takes it up. It seems to want to get > to her, as well. BW, I don't know about all that much, but I would imagine > that, given certain clues, he was *meant* to wield it. > > Iceflame is wielded by an undead soul, but still an external one. By the > way, in the Vladiad, I think _Taltos_, Iceflame is described as being a > weapon of such power that only the Orb and Godslayer are its equals. > > Now, another interesting point to bring up is this: why are all the Great > Weapons swords (a possible exception is Iceflame, again, but it is a long > dagger, which is essentially a short sword)? Is the orb a GW? Anyone who's > been involved in weapons practice knows that a sword is a nicely rounded > weapon--but sometimes, a sword just can't compare, or isn't the right tool > for the job. A staff, for instance, can do things that a swordsman wouldn't > have a chance against. However, I would imagine that a GW has to have a > blade on it, therefore, is it possible that a GW could take the form of a > glaive, or a spear, or something of the like? > > Anyway, back to my point. The essential requirements for a GW seem to be: > 1) a greater sentience (probably a soul, destined to be bound to the > specific weapon) > 2) a particular wielder > 3) possible other parts, like Spellbreaker. > > Ah whatever, I'm just repeating myself. :) > > Jon >
 
> > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From greyw01f at hotmail.com Sun Aug 17 10:40:18 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 17:40:18 +0000 Subject: Great Weapons (Issola Spoiler) Message-ID: I fully agree, Damian. I believe in the possibility that all the GW are controlled by a pre-destination. Otherwise, there is the risk and the eventual actuality of a GW falling into the wrong hands...and that, I think we all agree, could be a Problem. A small point, however. Vlad may be an Easterner--in this incarnation--but his soul is that of a Dragaeran's, and what's more, is one of a very few extremely pivotal Dragaeran souls. How else do you explain such adventures in one short (Eastern) lifetime? His soul is *meant* to be the harbinger, and indeed, the cause of change. Well maybe not change, but certainly a progression in important events. I shudder to think what will happen when Kieron gets off his lazy butt and comes back up to play. Jon _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From matthew at infodancer.org Sun Aug 17 12:34:27 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 14:34:27 -0500 Subject: Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas) In-Reply-To: <3F3F365D.2156@ecity.net> References: <3F3F365D.2156@ecity.net> Message-ID: <20030817193427.GR2053@infodancer.org> On Sun, Aug 17, 2003 at 09:01:39AM +0100, K Kuhn wrote: > David Silberstein wrote: > > > > On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Steve Simmons wrote: > > > > >And real spoilers for ISSOLA. > > > > > >> Spoiler space, so I can stop talking around possible future spoiles. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > At least part of the reason that speculation has tended toward > > Tazendra's soul being bonded with Blackwand, though, is that the > > fierce, female personality that Vlad senses from that weapon could > > well be Tazendra, given that she is indeed so much a Dzur. > > > > >To me, this argues both that the capture of a soul is *not* part of > > >the bonding process, but *may* be part of the assembly or re-assembly > > >process. > > > > You may be correct. > > Question - is there any textevd in the books that humans (Dragaerans or > Easterners) can be witch's familiars, as well as animals like jhereg and > cats? It might make for an interesting twist if the soul involved > really was Morrolan's (once fairly traditional, non-human) familiar. Aside from the most popular theory about the soul whom I will not name, I've idly speculated that perhaps Arra is the one who needs to get used to the cramped living quarters. After all, Arra's role at the moment in Morrolan's life really is more akin to a familiar than anything else. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From GibelMaria at aol.com Sun Aug 17 13:02:21 2003 From: GibelMaria at aol.com (GibelMaria at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 16:02:21 EDT Subject: Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas) Message-ID: Spoiler Space In a message dated 8/17/2003 3:35:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, matthew at infodancer.org writes: > Aside from the most popular theory about the soul whom I will not > name, I've idly speculated that perhaps Arra is the one who needs > to get used to the cramped living quarters. After all, Arra's > role at the moment in Morrolan's life really is more akin to a > familiar than anything else. I agree. Arra, being the Priestess and one of the people whom encourages, aides, and helps contact Verra for Morrolam, would be the likely soul. She has a Deep association with the Goddess who's the "Soul mate" (PotD) of Morrolan. We know she works with Morrolan, prays and gets visions even as he does, and aids him in his magical endeavors... Like a Familiar would. And her role in the Viscount Series seems to be, even from the first as "ethereal", She's there quiet, but strong, like Lady Teldra in the Vladiad books... Gibel From dgf at dd-b.net Sun Aug 17 15:17:02 2003 From: dgf at dd-b.net (dgf at dd-b.net) Date: 17 Aug 2003 22:17:02 -0000 Subject: Dragaera subscriber list Message-ID: <20030817221702.18586.qmail@dd-b.net> acwest-dragaera (at) craigwest.net (email) "A. 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Nonymous" yukio_toko (at) yahoo.com (email) yukiotoko imp-thing zaphod (at) charter.net (email) "Greg Schwartz" zarkon (at) illrepute.org (email) John Klein From melalvai at kemenel.org Sun Aug 17 17:31:59 2003 From: melalvai at kemenel.org (Rachel L. Ruhlen) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 19:31:59 -0500 Subject: Orb to navigate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU] >On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, lazarus wrote: >> >> And how the heck do the Orca navigate without stars? >That's easy - they know the time, and they know the distance (I bet) from >the Orb (I assume the speed of sorcery is finite). If that's not enough >(and isn't there a reference to compasses somewhere?) they probably have >simple charms that indicate distance to reference points... >Otherwise they hug the coasts or know the currents out to the islands... That explains how _Orca_ navigate. What about the pirates from Elde Island/Greenaere? They don't have the handy Orb link. Rachel From melalvai at kemenel.org Sun Aug 17 17:38:56 2003 From: melalvai at kemenel.org (Rachel L. Ruhlen) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 19:38:56 -0500 Subject: Orb metronome Message-ID: My only comment regarding the detailed & tedious conversation (which is entirely not quoted, merely referenced here) about the Orb as time-keeper and how long are seconds, minutes, hours, etc: With the Orb as the ultimate metronome, the jazz combos wouldn't have obnoxious pianists who can't keep time and always rush. (I'm speaking about myself, by the way. And my dad. And every other jazz pianist I have ever heard live. And a couple I've only heard recordings of, including Harry Connick Jr.) I'd like that. So would every bass player & drummer/percussionist (there is a difference) out there. Rachel From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Aug 17 18:34:34 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 18:34:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Orb metronome In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd like to meet a jazz pianist smart enough to query the Orb and play at the same time. On Sun, 17 Aug 2003, Rachel L. Ruhlen wrote: > My only comment regarding the detailed & tedious conversation (which is > entirely not quoted, merely referenced here) about the Orb as time-keeper > and how long are seconds, minutes, hours, etc: > > With the Orb as the ultimate metronome, the jazz combos wouldn't have > obnoxious pianists who can't keep time and always rush. (I'm speaking about > myself, by the way. And my dad. And every other jazz pianist I have ever > heard live. And a couple I've only heard recordings of, including Harry > Connick Jr.) I'd like that. So would every bass player & > drummer/percussionist (there is a difference) out there. > > Rachel > From hans117 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 20:54:01 2003 From: hans117 at yahoo.com (Hans Schweitzer) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 20:54:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Great Weapons (Issola Spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030818035401.41498.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> >I shudder to think what will happen when Kieron gets off his lazy butt and >comes back up to play. Kieron did come back. Didn't you figure it out? He came back in the form of a dragon that had fun killing a few J. Or at least that's how I read it. Vlad thought the dragon was familiar. The dragon looked at Vlad like he knew him. Furthermore Aliera had a similar interaction. I also seem to recall Sethra telling Aliera that she should know who the dragon was. So I think it is obvious that Kieron did come back. Did quite a bit too. Or am I the only one that thought this... --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software From matthew at infodancer.org Sun Aug 17 20:58:53 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 22:58:53 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons (Issola Spoiler) In-Reply-To: <20030818035401.41498.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030818035401.41498.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030818035853.GB951@infodancer.org> On Sun, Aug 17, 2003 at 08:54:01PM -0700, Hans Schweitzer wrote: > >I shudder to think what will happen when Kieron gets off his lazy butt and > >comes back up to play. > > Kieron did come back. Didn't you figure it out? He came > back in the form of a dragon that had fun killing a few J. Or > at least that's how I read it. Vlad thought the dragon was > familiar. The dragon looked at Vlad like he knew him. > Furthermore Aliera had a similar interaction. I also seem to > recall Sethra telling Aliera that she should know who the > dragon was. So I think it is obvious that Kieron did come > back. Did quite a bit too. Or am I the only one that thought > this... If memory serves, the generally accepted opinion of the Dragon is that it was Devera, not Kieron. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From pulmon at comcast.net Sun Aug 17 21:09:33 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 00:09:33 -0400 Subject: Great Weapons (Issola Spoiler) In-Reply-To: <20030818035401.41498.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Actually, I wondered the same thing. On Sunday, August 17, 2003, at 11:54 PM, Hans Schweitzer wrote: > >> I shudder to think what will happen when Kieron gets off his lazy >> butt and >> comes back up to play. > > Kieron did come back. Didn't you figure it out? He came back in the > form of a dragon that had fun killing a few J. Or at least that's how > I read it. Vlad thought the dragon was familiar. The dragon looked > at Vlad like he knew him. Furthermore Aliera had a similar > interaction. I also seem to recall Sethra telling Aliera that she > should know who the dragon was. So I think it is obvious that Kieron > did come back. Did quite a bit too. Or am I the only one that > thought this... > > > From pulmon at comcast.net Sun Aug 17 21:10:29 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 00:10:29 -0400 Subject: Great Weapons (Issola Spoiler) In-Reply-To: <20030818035853.GB951@infodancer.org> Message-ID: It may be generally accepted, but it does not sound right. Especially since Aliera is not supposed to know about Devera. On Sunday, August 17, 2003, at 11:58 PM, Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Sun, Aug 17, 2003 at 08:54:01PM -0700, Hans Schweitzer > wrote: >>> I shudder to think what will happen when Kieron gets off his lazy >>> butt and >>> comes back up to play. >> >> Kieron did come back. Didn't you figure it out? He came >> back in the form of a dragon that had fun killing a few J. Or >> at least that's how I read it. Vlad thought the dragon was >> familiar. The dragon looked at Vlad like he knew him. >> Furthermore Aliera had a similar interaction. I also seem to >> recall Sethra telling Aliera that she should know who the >> dragon was. So I think it is obvious that Kieron did come >> back. Did quite a bit too. Or am I the only one that thought >> this... > > If memory serves, the generally accepted opinion of the Dragon is > that it was Devera, not Kieron. > > -- > Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) > Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt > Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp > Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp > From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Mon Aug 18 00:06:49 2003 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 00:06:49 -0700 Subject: Great Weapons (Issola Spoiler) Message-ID: <200308180006.AA1312489674@amish2000.com> ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Matthew Hunter Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 22:58:53 -0500 >On Sun, Aug 17, 2003 at 08:54:01PM -0700, Hans Schweitzer < hans117 at yahoo.com> wrote: >> >I shudder to think what will happen when Kieron gets off his lazy butt and >> >comes back up to play. >> >> Kieron did come back. Didn't you figure it out? He came >> back in the form of a dragon that had fun killing a few J. Or >> at least that's how I read it. Vlad thought the dragon was >> familiar. The dragon looked at Vlad like he knew him. >> Furthermore Aliera had a similar interaction. I also seem to >> recall Sethra telling Aliera that she should know who the >> dragon was. So I think it is obvious that Kieron did come >> back. Did quite a bit too. Or am I the only one that thought >> this... > >If memory serves, the generally accepted opinion of the Dragon is >that it was Devera, not Kieron. Ah, but Admiral Bob/Lazarus Long says that the majority is never right. (And we all know that Lazarus Long is infallible.) I'd never considered that the Dragon was Kieron, but I _like_ that idea. It makes more _sense_ that the Dragon was Devera, considering that we have no other sightings of her in _Issola_, but it's cooler to think that it was Kieron. ? MJ ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ http://erythros.livejournal.com/ ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ From davids at kithrup.com Sun Aug 17 21:24:14 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 21:24:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Great Weapons (Issola Spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [Spoiler for /Issola/] On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: >It may be generally accepted, but it does not sound right. Especially >since Aliera is not supposed to know about Devera. It is not merely accepted, but rather it comes from a canonical source: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3B565028.844182AD at dreamcafe.com Perhaps Sethra or Verra has told Aliera of Devera. Or perhaps a powerful sorcerer such as Aliera should recognize her daughter's soul, even if she doesn't know she will have a daughter yet. From davids at kithrup.com Sun Aug 17 21:26:31 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 21:26:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Orb to navigate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Aug 2003, Rachel L. Ruhlen wrote: > > >From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU] > >>On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, lazarus wrote: >>> >>> And how the heck do the Orca navigate without stars? > >>That's easy - they know the time, and they know the distance (I bet) from >>the Orb (I assume the speed of sorcery is finite). If that's not enough >>(and isn't there a reference to compasses somewhere?) they probably have >>simple charms that indicate distance to reference points... > >>Otherwise they hug the coasts or know the currents out to the islands... > >That explains how _Orca_ navigate. What about the pirates from Elde >Island/Greenaere? They don't have the handy Orb link. > Well, I would guess that the Elde Islanders might be able to use celestial navigation, since the Enclouding probably does not reach that far West. Perhaps Greenaerans use charts and dead reckoning. And the position of the sun may be sufficiently visible through the Enclouding to give them latitude at least. From rick at 404.978.org Sun Aug 17 23:16:32 2003 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 02:16:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [SPOILERS] _The Lord of Castle Black_ In-Reply-To: <200308031925.PAA11010903@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <20030803173859.GC9964@infodancer.org> from "Matthew Hunter" at Aug 03, 2003 12:38:59 PM <200308031925.PAA11010903@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <55543.192.168.1.1.1061187392.squirrel@404.978.org> Alexx S Kay said: >> On Sun, Aug 03, 2003 at 12:13:21PM -0400, Alexx S Kay >> wrote: >> > > Well. >> > > >> > > That was fun. >> > > >> > > [SPOILERS below] >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > [snip] >> >> I was operating under the impression that the "rune" would be >> Arra's way of making the levitation permanent. She suggests that >> with enough witches, she can make it permanent. > > I don't remember such a suggestion, but will watch for it during the > next read-through (already underway, but slower, 'cause I'm updating the > Timeline). IIRC, it wasn't that she could make it permanent, but could keep it aloft indefinitely if maintained by a large enough circle of witches, whereas at the time mentioned, they could merely hold it up for a very long time. -Rick From TimN at rcn.com Sun Aug 17 23:14:09 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 02:14:09 -0400 Subject: Great Weapons (Issola Spoiler) References: Message-ID: <004001c3654f$f07495e0$d916fea9@ananda> Recycling spoiler space! Whee! ----- Original Message ----- From: David Silberstein To: Dragaera List Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 12:24 AM Subject: Re: Great Weapons (Issola Spoiler) > > [Spoiler for /Issola/] > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > > >It may be generally accepted, but it does not sound right. Especially > >since Aliera is not supposed to know about Devera. > > It is not merely accepted, but rather it comes from a canonical > source: > > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3B565028.844182AD at dreamcafe.com > > Steven cannot be trusted, he's a sneaky and suspicious little monkey... In fact, I think he fosters suspicion on this list because it amuses him. ;) He didn't SAY it was Devera, he said "Soandso wins the banana". Or maybe I'm just getting paranoid in my old age? - T From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Aug 17 23:21:47 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 23:21:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Great Weapons (Issola Spoiler) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > > [Spoiler for /Issola/] > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > > >It may be generally accepted, but it does not sound right. Especially > >since Aliera is not supposed to know about Devera. > > It is not merely accepted, but rather it comes from a canonical > source: > > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3B565028.844182AD at dreamcafe.com > > > Perhaps Sethra or Verra has told Aliera of Devera. Or perhaps a > powerful sorcerer such as Aliera should recognize her daughter's soul, > even if she doesn't know she will have a daughter yet. Or perhaps Sethra is just being snarky - we've seen how much she enjoys baiting A. I personally hate Devera-as-dragon, but that's just me. It occurs to me that D is the personification of the Plot, or anyway the Cycle. This is another reason to resurrect A - she has to give birth to the ordering principle of the universe. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Aug 17 23:24:36 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 23:24:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Paresh and "Arylle" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, Rachel L. Ruhlen wrote: > From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU] > > >For what it's worth, I find Paresh's account highly implausible... > > You're thinking like an Easterner. To quote Vlad, thanks for the compliment. From matthew at infodancer.org Sun Aug 17 23:29:39 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 01:29:39 -0500 Subject: Interviewing Morrolan and Sethra Message-ID: <20030818062939.GE951@infodancer.org> Earlier, the estimable Steven Brust was content to provide us the opportunity to conduct an interview with Vlad. Since then, at least two additional books have been released, detailing the adventures of characters other than that most notorious character and his rapier wit. Thus, in order to foster further amusement value, I pose the following question for Steve: Would it amuse you to provide a means of conveying a humble list of interview questions from this collective forum unto the esteemed parties mentioned within the subject of this missive? That is to say, for the title characters of the three volumes, insofar as they have title characters, which is to say, for the latter two volumes? Being the personages of Lord Morrolan, called Southmoor, a Count, appointed Court Wizard, and so on; and Sethra, whose name we have been assured by the highest authority in Dragaerean ettiquette available to us needs to titular ornamentation? The latter, of course, should wait until the actual release of that volume. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Aug 17 23:56:03 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 23:56:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Paresh and "Arylle" [_TLoCB_ spoilers] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > On Thu, 14 Aug 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > >For what it's worth, I find Paresh's account highly implausible, and > >the identification with T/A even more so. That P would have solitary > >unfettered access for so long to a library, especially if that's > >Tazendra's library (surely Khaavren would have overseen the disbursal > >of the estate even if everybody else is dead), seems unlikely. > > You are assuming that Khaavren, or anyone else who knew her, would > know that she was dead. I believe you are thinking in a pre-interregnum way. Any of T's friends could have contacted her as easily as thinking of her. And that includes Sethra. Since T apparently achieved a certain degree of accomplishment during the interregnum, perhaps even a great deal, her sudden booming would be noticed more widely than by the locals (including Mica...) > Although I admit that it is odd that her absence could go for so long > without any investigation (tax collectors & other auditors, at least, > might well show up). > > But perhaps the explosion was part of an attack on the entire region, > and the Duke himself was a casualty. A minor Baroness might not have > warranted further note than "She got hit too". The person you're calling "minor" is a war hero, a leading restablisher of the Empire, a pioneering researcher, a close friend of the Captain (Brigadier?) of the Guards, a close friend of the Imperial Discreet, etc. I rather imagine she gets promoted... > >That a Lyorn would (deign to) attack him with sorcery seems further > >unlikely. > > Why? You are perhaps assuming that all Lyorns are of impeccable > character. As we see with Shaltre, this is not the case. Would Shaltre deign to duel with a Teckla? He'd order a servant to deliver a thrashing. But he wouldn't be there in the first place. > > That a Lyorn would physically show up in person to find someone > >(especially post-interregnum, when he could use the Orb to phone > >ahead, or have a servant phone ahead) I consider absolutely > >impossible. > > ... > There's things wrong with that scenario as well - why would none of > the Teckla of the Duke's lands tell the Duke about the incident? > Unless he really is so new on the scene that he has no contacts among > the locals at all. Hm. That does kind of make sense. I think you've missed the thrust of my argument - a Duke won't have time to go for a stroll, or won't bother. He'll send his seneschal, or his secretary, or have the gardener's son's cousin carry over a note. And anyway he won't appear out of the blue with an entire retinue completely ignorant of the local area. > >It's possible that Aerich doesn't make it out of the Viscountiad and > >Arylle is not a Lyorn and that Paresh and Vlad are accurate in their > >account and I'm entirely deluded, > > As already suggested, it appears all too likely that the young Lyorn > cannot possibly be Aerich, which indicates that Aerich is, during > Vlad's time, defunct. Regardless of whether the young Lyorn is a > usurper or legitimate heir, he would not have *called* himself the > Duke of Arylle unless the former Duke was no longer around to dispute > the claim. I don't think Paresh's story indicates anything, because it's as likely to be codswallop as anything else. He might be a disgruntled servant who takes his pitiful revenge on Arylle by slandering him to Jheregs. And Aerich might well have gotten a promotion (to take Shaltre's place in court, for example) and left the Dukedom to an heir, such as a disowned Piro (well, not very likely, but it'd be nice.) From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Aug 18 00:28:48 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 00:28:48 -0700 Subject: Orb metronome In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030818002658.0370fe00@localhost> At 07:38 PM 8/17/2003 -0500, Rachel L. Ruhlen wrote: > >With the Orb as the ultimate metronome, the jazz combos wouldn't have >obnoxious pianists who can't keep time and always rush. (I'm speaking about >myself, by the way. And my dad. And every other jazz pianist I have ever >heard live. I recommend checking out Rick Carlson, of the Wolverines Jazz Quartet, playing every Tuesday evening at The Times Bar in Minneapolis. From Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 18 00:48:48 2003 From: Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net (Daemian Spayde) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 00:48:48 -0700 Subject: D or A, there is no question (Issola Spoiler) (was Great Weapons) References: Message-ID: <009a01c3655d$296bcb40$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> Issola (paperback) pg. 230 Sethra is speaking of the "person" in question: "Not now," said Sethra. She frowned, and finally said, "Very well. Leave _her_ alone, we'll adjust." Key word there: HER Daemian "Spayde" DuMonde ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Hart" To: "David Silberstein" Cc: "Dragaera List" Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 11:21 PM Subject: Re: Great Weapons (Issola Spoiler) > > > On Sun, 17 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > > > > > [Spoiler for /Issola/] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > > > > >It may be generally accepted, but it does not sound right. Especially > > >since Aliera is not supposed to know about Devera. > > > > It is not merely accepted, but rather it comes from a canonical > > source: > > > > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3B565028.844182AD at dreamcafe.com > > > > > > Perhaps Sethra or Verra has told Aliera of Devera. Or perhaps a > > powerful sorcerer such as Aliera should recognize her daughter's soul, > > even if she doesn't know she will have a daughter yet. > > Or perhaps Sethra is just being snarky - we've seen how much she enjoys > baiting A. > > I personally hate Devera-as-dragon, but that's just me. It occurs to me > that D is the personification of the Plot, or anyway the Cycle. This is > another reason to resurrect A - she has to give birth to the ordering > principle of the universe. From mtiller at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 18 01:35:50 2003 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 09:35:50 +0100 Subject: Great Weapons (Spoiler Removed) In-Reply-To: <004001c3654f$f07495e0$d916fea9@ananda> Message-ID: <001801c36563$c082c870$0101a8c0@markspc> -----Original Message----- From: Timothy Nelson [mailto:TimN at rcn.com] Sent: 18 August 2003 07:14 To: Dragaera List Subject: Re: Great Weapons (Issola Spoiler) >Or maybe I'm just getting paranoid in my old age? Yes :-) From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 01:59:11 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 08:59:11 +0000 Subject: Phoenix (was Re: Mario the Mystery) Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > > Spoilers for "Brokedown Palace", beware... > >On Sat, 16 Aug 2003, lazarus wrote: > > >On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 19:16:11 -0500, you wrote: > > > >>About Easterners mating with Phoenix--or any Dragaeran. I bet it happens >a > >>lot more than anyone lets on, but that most of the births to Easterner > >>mothers and the offspring is raised as an Easterner. Probably isn't > >>frequent, but with the recent influx of Easterners into the Empire, it's > >>gotta happen if it is possible. > > > >But do we ever hear about Eastern/human half breeds? > > > >We do not, and Aliera has stated flat-out that it is impossible for >Easterners and Dragaerans to breed. > >To the left, there is Brigitta. I suspect - but only suspect - that >her father, a "demon", is in fact a Dragaeran (perhaps one with only >minor powers in the Empire, he finds that in the East he can be a big >shot). Aliera might simply be wrong on this, seeing as how she also >stated flat-out that there was no genetic connection between >Easterners and Dragaerans, and was later shown to be wrong by Sethra. > Taking into account the kind of taboo that exists in the Dragaeran culture among the halfbreed between houses, I must consider that, in case that it was possible to breed for Easteners and Dragaerans, it will be one of the greater taboos in this society. Therefore, maybe Aliera's statement was not just incorrect for her genetic knowledgement but influenced by its cultural inheritance. _________________________________________________________________ Dale rienda suelta a tu tiempo libre. Encuentra mil ideas para exprimir tu ocio con MSN Entretenimiento. http://entretenimiento.msn.es/ From greyw01f at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 06:45:38 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 13:45:38 +0000 Subject: Phoenix (was Re: Mario the Mystery) Message-ID: while we see in a simiilar culture in the C18th American South that cross-breeding isn't only common, but indeed gives birth to a whole new strain of humans, I think there are differences between this culture and dragaeran. While it's obvious that societal taboos aren't enough to prevent cross-breeding, perhaps it should be taken into account that Dragaerans can't get pregnant (and maybe can't impregnate?) unless they *want* to--and who would *want* to create what would generally be perceived as an abomination? Of course, you'll always get those who think that their love will conquer all, but those will be few and far between. However, it does imply that it *does* happen. Someone on this list once said in reference to this, if it's possible, it has to happen [somewhere in the Empire] Jon _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From greyw01f at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 06:46:35 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 13:46:35 +0000 Subject: baiting friends... Message-ID: It just occurred to me--Hey Lazarus! Piss off! Steven Brust is *my* find. You can't have him :P Jon _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From greyw01f at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 06:35:44 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 13:35:44 +0000 Subject: Great Weapons (Issola Spoiler) Message-ID: If I remember correctly, the dragon in Issola was referred to as a "she". I always thought it was the dragon from the paths of the dead that they met in _Taltos_ but Devera's a cool, and more fitting, alternate. And by the way, it's no surprise that Lazarus is infallible in the Brustian trivia. Do NOT get into a competition with him over Tolkien.... Jon _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Mon Aug 18 08:03:40 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:03:40 -0400 Subject: Interviewing Morrolan and Sethra In-Reply-To: <20030818062939.GE951@infodancer.org> References: <20030818062939.GE951@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20030818150340.GA1203@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 at 01:29:39AM -0500, Matthew Hunter wrote: > Would it amuse you to provide a means of conveying a humble list > of interview questions from this collective forum unto the > esteemed parties . . . > Sethra, whose name we have been assured by the highest authority > in Dragaerean ettiquette available to us needs to titular > ornamentation? I believe that Sethra Lavode would reply (politely) some close approximation of "When I wish to be interviewed, I will supply you with a list of questions I wish to answer." -- "People tend to hit me." -- Mike Wayne, late 1989 From TimN at rcn.com Mon Aug 18 09:10:32 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:10:32 -0400 Subject: Phoenix (was Re: Mario the Mystery) References: Message-ID: <006101c365a3$4110cac0$d916fea9@ananda> Wasn't it later revealed that Vlad is an idiot, and Draegaerans *can* have "accidents", but birth control spells make them all but unknown (save during the Interregnum)? ----- Original Message ----- From: Jon Carey To: Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 9:45 AM Subject: Re: Phoenix (was Re: Mario the Mystery) [ various snippage ] > While it's obvious that societal taboos aren't enough to prevent > cross-breeding, perhaps it should be taken into account that Dragaerans > can't get pregnant (and maybe can't impregnate?) unless they *want* to--and > who would *want* to create what would generally be perceived as an > abomination? Of course, you'll always get those who think that their love > will conquer all, but those will be few and far between. > From greyw01f at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 09:21:25 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:21:25 +0000 Subject: Lazarus Message-ID: Raven: (12:19 PM) ya bastid Ultimate Joe: (12:19 PM) what? Raven: (12:20 PM) I didn't know you liked Steven Brust Ultimate Joe: (12:20 PM) Who? Raven: (12:20 PM) aw crap Raven: (12:20 PM) Who is Lazarus Long? Ultimate Joe: (12:20 PM) A character in several Robert Heinlein novels. Raven: (12:20 PM) ah.... Raven: (12:20 PM) well, I'm on this mailing list Raven: (12:20 PM) and on it is a Lazarus Ultimate Joe: (12:21 PM) (I am a bastard though... I have an unreleased ROTK trailer.) Raven: (12:21 PM) recently, he was called Lazarus Long Ultimate Joe: (12:21 PM) What mailing list? Raven: (12:21 PM) So, I figured, how many Lazarus Longs can there be Raven: (12:21 PM) a mailing list for the world of Steven Brust Ultimate Joe: (12:21 PM) Never heard of hi. Raven: (12:21 PM) So I sent a bunch of emails to the list, assuming that Lazarus Long was you. Raven: (12:21 PM) Crap. :/ Jon _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Mon Aug 18 10:39:18 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 10:39:18 -0700 Subject: Lazarus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:21:25 +0000, you wrote: > >Raven: (12:19 PM) ya bastid >Ultimate Joe: (12:19 PM) what? >Raven: (12:20 PM) I didn't know you liked Steven Brust >Ultimate Joe: (12:20 PM) Who? >Raven: (12:20 PM) aw crap >Raven: (12:20 PM) Who is Lazarus Long? >Ultimate Joe: (12:20 PM) A character in several Robert Heinlein novels. >Raven: (12:20 PM) ah.... >Raven: (12:20 PM) well, I'm on this mailing list >Raven: (12:20 PM) and on it is a Lazarus >Ultimate Joe: (12:21 PM) (I am a bastard though... I have an unreleased ROTK >trailer.) >Raven: (12:21 PM) recently, he was called Lazarus Long >Ultimate Joe: (12:21 PM) What mailing list? >Raven: (12:21 PM) So, I figured, how many Lazarus Longs can there be >Raven: (12:21 PM) a mailing list for the world of Steven Brust >Ultimate Joe: (12:21 PM) Never heard of hi. >Raven: (12:21 PM) So I sent a bunch of emails to the list, assuming that >Lazarus Long was you. >Raven: (12:21 PM) Crap. > >:/ Well, oddly enough, my nick, lazarus, was only partially taken from the Heinlein Lazarus. I also got it from my uncanny and annoying tendency to "come back from the dead" when playing various games, such as Magic and Battletech. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From mtiller at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 18 11:53:50 2003 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:53:50 +0100 Subject: Great Weapons spoilers for Dragon and LOCB In-Reply-To: <20030816050905.GA2053@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <000001c365ba$162a4fe0$0101a8c0@markspc> Spoiler Space -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Hunter [mailto:matthew at infodancer.org] Sent: 16 August 2003 06:09 To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) >> gods... where has it EVER been stated that any other great weapon was >> dismantled? >No one is claiming that the others were dismantled. Vlad talks the Seroli and asks if Spellbreaker is a great weapon. The Seroli replies "Not yet". Vlad later comments on the precision of the comment. If Godslayer had previously been dismantled, the Seroli would have said "Not at the moment" or something similar. This may also have a bearing on the comments in the list about Great Weapons being meant for certain people. Cheers Mark. From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Mon Aug 18 12:43:17 2003 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:43:17 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons NO spoilers for Dragon and LOCB References: <000001c365ba$162a4fe0$0101a8c0@markspc> Message-ID: <3F412C55.7030807@comcast.net> I read a couple of the first books again. In either Taltos or Jhereg Vlad mentions Godslayer, along with the Orb, as one of the Seventeen. That doesn't mean, of course, that it existed at this point or at any point prior . . . Mia From Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 18 12:41:21 2003 From: Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net (Daemian Spayde) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:41:21 -0700 Subject: Lazarus References: Message-ID: <007001c365c0$b3ceb320$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> Points to Jon/Raven for posting a picutre of his foot, clearly stuffed into his mouth. Also, points to Lazarus for a great name, picked from two very fun games. And I would it noted to Jon that *I* found Brust first, *YOU* can't have him, so nyeh! Daemian just another Ass^2in ----- Original Message ----- From: "lazarus" To: Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 10:39 AM Subject: Re: Lazarus On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:21:25 +0000, you wrote: > >Raven: (12:19 PM) ya bastid >Ultimate Joe: (12:19 PM) what? >Raven: (12:20 PM) I didn't know you liked Steven Brust >Ultimate Joe: (12:20 PM) Who? >Raven: (12:20 PM) aw crap >Raven: (12:20 PM) Who is Lazarus Long? >Ultimate Joe: (12:20 PM) A character in several Robert Heinlein novels. >Raven: (12:20 PM) ah.... >Raven: (12:20 PM) well, I'm on this mailing list >Raven: (12:20 PM) and on it is a Lazarus >Ultimate Joe: (12:21 PM) (I am a bastard though... I have an unreleased ROTK >trailer.) >Raven: (12:21 PM) recently, he was called Lazarus Long >Ultimate Joe: (12:21 PM) What mailing list? >Raven: (12:21 PM) So, I figured, how many Lazarus Longs can there be >Raven: (12:21 PM) a mailing list for the world of Steven Brust >Ultimate Joe: (12:21 PM) Never heard of hi. >Raven: (12:21 PM) So I sent a bunch of emails to the list, assuming that >Lazarus Long was you. >Raven: (12:21 PM) Crap. > >:/ Well, oddly enough, my nick, lazarus, was only partially taken from the Heinlein Lazarus. I also got it from my uncanny and annoying tendency to "come back from the dead" when playing various games, such as Magic and Battletech. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From greyw01f at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 14:07:36 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:07:36 +0000 Subject: House Animals Message-ID: Hey, I've been curious throughout the novels what the various Houses are, animal-wise. The curiousity stems from an interest in behavioural psychology, and I like to know what to expect, based on what Iknow of the House. But obviously, I have no idea what a Jhegaala or a Chreotha is, and so I can't even form a basic assumption about temperment and the like...so I want to try to compile a list of what clues lead to what conclusions regarding the identity of the various animals included in the cycle. One of the problems that has so far confronted me is the problem of sorting which characteristics are those of the House, and which are from the animals >from which that House derives its name. It's possible, probable even, that there are some animals that don't really match up with the fauna on Earth, but we can only approximate, so that's what we'll be content with: approximations. Here's what I've got so far: PHOENIX -- we know this. DRAGON -- we know this. LYORN -- has a horn. Has "sleek" hide. TIASSA --has been shown to have wings, based on a sculpture somewhere, possibly at Deathsgate in _PotD_, but has also been described as a cat, like in _Orca_ when Loftis uses the code name "Papa-cat" for Khaavren. HAWK -- we know this. DZUR -- is a feline of some sort, probably a Tiger, but maybe a Lion. ISSOLA -- going by the cover of the book, it looks like a Heron-like bird. TSALMOTH -- no idea. VALLISTA -- "Rends and then rebuilds" might indicate something like a beaver. JHEREG -- Mix between a dragon and a vulture. IORICH -- no idea. CHREOTHA -- no idea. YENDI -- some sort of snake. ORCA -- probably the same as earth, but maybe not. See _Phoenix_, on the way to Greenaere for a slight description. TECKLA -- I see this as a rodent, possibly a rabbit-like creature. JHEGAALA -- A Chameleon? ATHYRA -- Owl-like bird with psionic abilities. Other creatures mentioned are a Darr (from Vlad's Darrskin boots) a sjo-bear (one attacked Vlad in the Paths of the Dead) a norska, and a few others that I've forgotten. What do you guys think? Jon _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From genji_77 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 14:01:17 2003 From: genji_77 at hotmail.com (Genji) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:01:17 -0700 Subject: Dumas References: <1cc.f2541ff.2c6c4d11@aol.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Cc: Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 7:25 PM Subject: Re: Dumas In a message dated 8/13/2003 8:04:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, alexx at TheWorld.com writes: > It has been repeatedly stated that in Vlad's time Sethra is the last of > the Lavodes. Sethra herself says this in Issola and then goes on to say that > there is one more, but he is not ready. (I believe that this person is the > lord of castle black, but this is just a guess.) Ok... "My Wild Theory" here, and I say wild since I am truly a novice having read only Brust and not yet been privileged to reading Dumas ... something I will correct in the VERY near future. Anyway, here it is: The "Lavode" who's not ready... Why, I believe it might be the Child Catwi is Carrying... We know Sethra has an affinity towards Vlad, damn right sisterly in both the faces we've seen her in... Thief/Undead... The Lavode is not ready because he/she has not yet been born. Gibel --------------------------- My similar wild theory is that Vlad is the Lavode who is not ready .... who may be granted long life through the already demonstrated healing powers of Godslayer. Genji From melalvai at kemenel.org Mon Aug 18 14:18:12 2003 From: melalvai at kemenel.org (Rachel L. Ruhlen) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:18:12 -0500 Subject: Issola spoiler Message-ID: Regarding the conversation about whether the dragon at the end of _Issola_ was Devera (as I had assumed, especially since she doesn't make an appearance in that book otherwise) or Kieron: Maybe you're both right and Keiron was/is/will be reincarnated as Devera! Is it possible to be reincarnated as your own daughter? Try drawing that family tree. Family web. Family twisty thing. Rachel From Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 18 14:24:49 2003 From: Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net (Daemian Spayde) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:24:49 -0700 Subject: House Animals References: Message-ID: <010501c365cf$283c9340$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> ----- Original Message ----- > PHOENIX -- we know this. > DRAGON -- we know this. > LYORN -- has a horn. Has "sleek" hide. I always thought it was some kind of 'Herd' animal as well. > TIASSA --has been shown to have wings, based on a sculpture somewhere, > possibly at Deathsgate in _PotD_, but has also been described as a cat, like > in _Orca_ when Loftis uses the code name "Papa-cat" for Khaavren. I think this is a winged House Cat. > HAWK -- we know this. > DZUR -- is a feline of some sort, probably a Tiger, but maybe a Lion. I think this is a Black Panther, very close to an old D&D Displacer Beast (I remember something about 'Tentacles' being mentioned? I could be wrong). > ISSOLA -- going by the cover of the book, it looks like a Heron-like bird. Crane (some people say Stork) > TSALMOTH -- no idea. I always pictured this as a Sloth or something like that...no idea why > VALLISTA -- "Rends and then rebuilds" might indicate something like a > beaver. > JHEREG -- Mix between a dragon and a vulture. > IORICH -- no idea. I think this was also a flying/avian creature, but I might be wrong. > CHREOTHA -- no idea. They spit "webbing", but are (I think) dog sized land creatures. > YENDI -- some sort of snake. > ORCA -- probably the same as earth, but maybe not. See _Phoenix_, on the > way to Greenaere for a slight description. > TECKLA -- I see this as a rodent, possibly a rabbit-like creature. Mouse. > JHEGAALA -- A Chameleon? > ATHYRA -- Owl-like bird with psionic abilities. > > Other creatures mentioned are a Darr (from Vlad's Darrskin boots) a sjo-bear > (one attacked Vlad in the Paths of the Dead) a norska, and a few others that > I've forgotten. > > What do you guys think? > > Jon I think Norska's are like Reptiliant Rabbits, but I could just be smoking cracks... Daemian From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Aug 18 15:27:42 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:27:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: off-topic - was Re: Orb metronome In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here's some unabashedly happy optimistic music which I like for some reason. http://backseatmemories22.tripod.com/files/somethingtellsme.wav It seems to me the percussion is pushing the tempo but the music never speeds up. Maybe this is an effect jazz pianists like but can't achieve. From greyw01f at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 15:52:08 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:52:08 +0000 Subject: House Animals Message-ID: http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/treats/dzurlordintro.html Check it out. I'm rather surprised at how my guesses went. Another note, for gloating factor, is that I figured a bear had to be in there somewhere. Only one I had no clue with was the Iorich and the Jhegaala, and hey, that ain't bad. Jon
 
_________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 18 16:11:34 2003 From: Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net (Daemian Spayde) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:11:34 -0700 Subject: House Animals References: Message-ID: <01b901c365de$12289360$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> Heh, I have never had the time to peruse SIL before, I mean I knew about it, but never had the free time. Here's the one thing I thought of reading through the Plant section: It's common knowledge that people eat Jhegaala eggs...don't they turn into Moth's then Frogs after that? I don't know how I would feel about eating a Moth Egg. Also, do people eat Jhegaala Frog Meat? Wouldn't that be confusing? "I'd like a Jhegaala Omelette Please." "You mean the Eggs or the Meat sir?" "Oo! How about BOTH!" "Of course Sir." Daemian who has WAY too much free time today ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Carey" To: Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 3:52 PM Subject: Re: House Animals > > http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/treats/dzurlordintro.html > > Check it out. I'm rather surprised at how my guesses went. Another note, > for gloating factor, is that I figured a bear had to be in there somewhere. > Only one I had no clue with was the Iorich and the Jhegaala, and hey, that > ain't bad. > > Jon >
 
> > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From rick at 404.978.org Mon Aug 18 18:10:07 2003 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:10:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: References: <20030816050905.GA2053@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <55943.192.168.1.1.1061255407.squirrel@404.978.org> Philip Hart said: > On the subject, I would like to once again assert that Morrolan's taking > Blackwand into the Paths, when he fully expects to be staying, is an > annoying flaw in _Taltos_, which if anyone can explain away I'd be > grateful. Because Blackwand is his familiar, and though he *expected* to be staying, he may not have entirely given up all hope of avoiding it. Vlad's familiar came along too... -Rick From mam at theworld.com Mon Aug 18 17:59:13 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:59:13 -0400 Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: #On Sat, 9 Aug 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: # #>On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: #> #> #>#I don't see why "petroleum" would be a mistranslation since it #>#just means "rock-oil" in Latin. #> #>Latin form of a Greek word, but who's counting? #> # #Not that I'm trying to out-pedant anyone, but: # #"Petra" is Greek, but "oleum" is purely Latin (or so sayeth the OED). #So it's a Latin combined word containing a Greek root & a Latin one. # #Quod erat demonstratum, res ipsum loquitur, et quidquid latine dictum #sit altum viditur. Nicely pointed out and well put. (Except it should be "res *ipse* loquitur"; "res" is feminine, as in "res publica" ~~ 'public business', the etymon of "republic".) -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From rick at 404.978.org Mon Aug 18 18:17:43 2003 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:17:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: <20030816062546.GB2053@infodancer.org> References: <20030816050905.GA2053@infodancer.org> <20030816062546.GB2053@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <55980.192.168.1.1.1061255863.squirrel@404.978.org> Matthew Hunter said: > I confess that I am still puzzled as to why Aliera's soul was > sufficiently valuable to be retrieved from the Paths by such > extreme and unprecedently measures. She *does* have some fairly impressive family connections... -Rick From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Mon Aug 18 17:59:56 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:59:56 -0700 Subject: House Animals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:52:08 +0000, you wrote: > >http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/treats/dzurlordintro.html > >Check it out. I'm rather surprised at how my guesses went. Another note, >for gloating factor, is that I figured a bear had to be in there somewhere. >Only one I had no clue with was the Iorich and the Jhegaala, and hey, that >ain't bad. On the other hand, I definitely remember talking to Steve about these critters at a con in Mississippi, and he described the Tsalmoth as "a large land oyster" who would spend months or years climbing a tree, then climbing out on a limb, then waiting to drop on a large prey animal moving beneath it. If it missed, it had to start up the tree again..... -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU Mon Aug 18 19:53:50 2003 From: goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (David Goldfarb) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:53:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ Message-ID: <200308190253.h7J2roG25772@apocalypse.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> From: Mark A Mandel >Nicely pointed out and well put. (Except it should be "res *ipse* >loquitur"; "res" is feminine, as in "res publica" ~~ 'public business', >the etymon of "republic".) Um, no -- "ipse" is a masculine form. As you say, "res" is feminine, so it would have to be "ipsa". -- David Goldfarb <*>| goldfarb at ocf.berkeley.edu | "You do it. I'm bitter." goldfarb at csua.berkeley.edu | -- MST3K From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Aug 18 19:59:51 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:59:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: <200308190253.h7J2roG25772@apocalypse.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> References: <200308190253.h7J2roG25772@apocalypse.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, David Goldfarb wrote: > From: Mark A Mandel > >Nicely pointed out and well put. (Except it should be "res *ipse* > >loquitur"; "res" is feminine, as in "res publica" ~~ 'public business', > >the etymon of "republic".) > > Um, no -- "ipse" is a masculine form. As you say, "res" is feminine, > so it would have to be "ipsa". Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Who'll regulate the regulators?) From hans117 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 20:05:02 2003 From: hans117 at yahoo.com (Hans Schweitzer) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:05:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: House Animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030819030502.96363.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> >http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/treats/dzurlordintro.html >Check it out. I'm rather surprised at how my guesses went. Another note, >for gloating factor, is that I figured a bear had to be in there somewhere. >Only one I had no clue with was the Iorich and the Jhegaala, and hey, that >ain't bad. That introduction was informative. I had been getting ready to write a theory about overcast because I didn't remember it being called pollution in any of the books. The only thing that stopped me was that I've had that theory for so long I couldn't be sure it wasn't in any of the books. Well at least I was right (but its more fun to be wrong) ... Anyone know how I can get a copy of Dzurlord? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software From AkodoBob at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 18 21:10:34 2003 From: AkodoBob at sbcglobal.net (Akodo Bob) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:10:34 -0700 Subject: House Animals In-Reply-To: <20030819030502.96363.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <14BC68E8-D1FB-11D7-A12B-0005027712ED@sbcglobal.net> I seem to recall some discussion about whether or not Dzurlord was considered Cannon or not? Was that ever decided? On Monday, August 18, 2003, at 08:05 PM, Hans Schweitzer wrote: >> http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/treats/dzurlordintro.html > >> Check it out. I'm rather surprised at how my guesses went. Another >> note, >> for gloating factor, is that I figured a bear had to be in there >> somewhere. >> Only one I had no clue with was the Iorich and the Jhegaala, and hey, >> that >> ain't bad. > > > > That introduction was informative. I had been getting ready to write a > theory about overcast because I didn't remember it being called > pollution in any of the books. The only thing that stopped me was that > I've had that theory for so long I couldn't be sure it wasn't in any of > the books. Well at least I was right (but its more fun to be > wrong) ... Anyone know how I can get a copy of Dzurlord? > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software From davids at kithrup.com Mon Aug 18 21:54:32 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:54:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: House Animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, lazarus wrote: > >On the other hand, I definitely remember talking to Steve about these >critters at a con in Mississippi, and he described the Tsalmoth as "a >large land oyster" who would spend months or years climbing a tree, >then climbing out on a limb, then waiting to drop on a large prey >animal moving beneath it. If it missed, it had to start up the tree >again..... > 'strewth, mate! http://www.moxon.net/australia/drop_bears.html And 'ere Oi thawt Steve-o were an 'ungarian, nowt an Ozzie! From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Mon Aug 18 21:45:30 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:45:30 -0700 Subject: House Animals In-Reply-To: <14BC68E8-D1FB-11D7-A12B-0005027712ED@sbcglobal.net> References: <20030819030502.96363.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> <14BC68E8-D1FB-11D7-A12B-0005027712ED@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <6qa3kv0t9b3e586php7oj0fvogp6cvnd82@4ax.com> On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:10:34 -0700, you wrote: >I seem to recall some discussion about whether or not Dzurlord was >considered Cannon or not? Was that ever decided? > I vaguely recall that Dzurlord was not canon, for the most part. > >On Monday, August 18, 2003, at 08:05 PM, Hans Schweitzer wrote: > >>> http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/treats/dzurlordintro.html >> >>> Check it out. I'm rather surprised at how my guesses went. Another >>> note, >>> for gloating factor, is that I figured a bear had to be in there >>> somewhere. >>> Only one I had no clue with was the Iorich and the Jhegaala, and hey, >>> that >>> ain't bad. >> >> >> >> That introduction was informative. I had been getting ready to write a >> theory about overcast because I didn't remember it being called >> pollution in any of the books. The only thing that stopped me was that >> I've had that theory for so long I couldn't be sure it wasn't in any of >> the books. Well at least I was right (but its more fun to be >> wrong) ... Anyone know how I can get a copy of Dzurlord? >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Aug 18 22:07:54 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: House Animals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > 'strewth, mate! > > http://www.moxon.net/australia/drop_bears.html > > And 'ere Oi thawt Steve-o were an 'ungarian, nowt an Ozzie! Latin, gibberish, ... - I miss the good old days when this list used English. From genji_77 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 22:09:24 2003 From: genji_77 at hotmail.com (Genji) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:09:24 -0700 Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Hubbell" To: Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 9:59 PM Subject: Re: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) > Godslayer was taken apart (to an extent) by the > gods... where has it EVER been stated that any other great weapon was > dismantled? Why not speculate on something worth speculating on, like > whether or not it was a great weapon which Khaavren and company receivered > at the Pepperfields from Fenarr... > I have heard several times on this list that Godslayer was dismantled .... I don't recall reading this myself. Where is that from? The quote that sticks in my mind is when the serioli tells vlad something like it is not yet a weapon. Nothing saying it used to be. Genji From davids at kithrup.com Mon Aug 18 22:35:38 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:35:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Genji wrote: > >I have heard several times on this list that Godslayer was dismantled >.... I don't recall reading this myself. Where is that from? The >quote that sticks in my mind is when the serioli tells vlad something >like it is not yet a weapon. Nothing saying it used to be. > Since I happen to have /Dragon/ right here, I will note that the Serioli says, on the one hand: "Someday there will be a weapon called 'Remover of aspects of deity'". On the other hand, he also says: "The two artifacts were, or are to be, created together --", which ambiguifies the causality and sequence. But I note the paragraph following that little temporal brain-breaker says that "Some of our people desired divinity and crafted artifacts to find and destroy those who sit on the Thrones of Judgment. One of these became [Pathfinder]. [...] The other was taken by the Gods, and an attempt was made to destroy it." What I note about the paragraph is that while the first weapon is obviously Pathfinder, the second artifact's name and nature are not stated. Which suggests to me that perhaps it was not complete, that it had the potential to be Godslayer - which was why the Gods tried to destroy it - but it was not Godslayer until Vlad completed it. Perhaps the addition of a soul was in fact what was necessary? From davids at kithrup.com Mon Aug 18 22:41:10 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: House Animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [ Ahem! Editing of the To: & Cc:, please... Thanks. ] On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >> >> 'strewth, mate! >> >> http://www.moxon.net/australia/drop_bears.html >> >> And 'ere Oi thawt Steve-o were an 'ungarian, nowt an Ozzie! > > >Latin, gibberish, ... - I miss the good old days when this list used >English. > Do not attempt to use any Australian slang, unless you are a trained linguist and good in a fistfight. -- Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy, entry on Australia http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A53650 From genji_77 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 22:46:40 2003 From: genji_77 at hotmail.com (Genji) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:46:40 -0700 Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Silberstein" To: "Dragaera List" Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 10:35 PM Subject: Re: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) > > But I note the paragraph following that little temporal brain-breaker > says that "Some of our people desired divinity and crafted artifacts > to find and destroy those who sit on the Thrones of Judgment. One of > these became [Pathfinder]. [...] The other was taken by the Gods, and > an attempt was made to destroy it." > > What I note about the paragraph is that while the first weapon is > obviously Pathfinder, the second artifact's name and nature are not > stated. Which suggests to me that perhaps it was not complete, that > it had the potential to be Godslayer - which was why the Gods tried to > destroy it - but it was not Godslayer until Vlad completed it. > Perhaps the addition of a soul was in fact what was necessary? > Ahhhh, now I see where that line of reasoning came from. Thanks From baralier at optusnet.com.au Mon Aug 18 23:01:51 2003 From: baralier at optusnet.com.au (Baralier) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:01:51 +1000 Subject: House Animals References: Message-ID: <007301c36617$6d930b20$18a231d2@valadan> > >> 'strewth, mate! > >> > >> http://www.moxon.net/australia/drop_bears.html > >> > >> And 'ere Oi thawt Steve-o were an 'ungarian, nowt an Ozzie! > > > > > >Latin, gibberish, ... - I miss the good old days when this list used > >English. > > > > Do not attempt to use any Australian slang, unless you are a > trained linguist and good in a fistfight. Definitely. Especially since "nowt" is one of the most English slang words in the sentence! The only people that use nowt in Australia are the "ten pound poms". Dinkum. Baralier -- "I saw it on the internet" has become the modern equivalent of "some bloke down the pub told me." http://members.optushome.com.au/velvetspyder Costumier & Reprobate From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Aug 19 01:24:06 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:24:06 -0700 Subject: House Animals In-Reply-To: <20030819030502.96363.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030819012347.030c7940@localhost> At 08:05 PM 8/18/2003 -0700, Hans Schweitzer wrote: > >http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/treats/dzurlordintro.html > > >Check it out. I'm rather surprised at how my guesses went. Another note, > >for gloating factor, is that I figured a bear had to be in there somewhere. > >Only one I had no clue with was the Iorich and the Jhegaala, and hey, that > >ain't bad. > > > >That introduction was informative. Not, however, canonical, as far as I know. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Aug 19 01:26:06 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:26:06 -0700 Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030819012533.030c7d90@localhost> At 10:35 PM 8/18/2003 -0700, David Silberstein wrote: > On the other hand, he also says: "The >two artifacts were, or are to be, created together --", which >ambiguifies the causality and sequence. Mark? Pamela? Can he say that? From goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU Tue Aug 19 01:31:03 2003 From: goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (David Goldfarb) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) Message-ID: <200308190831.h7J8V3i16275@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> From: Steven Brust >At 10:35 PM 8/18/2003 -0700, David Silberstein wrote: >> On the other hand, he also says: "The >>two artifacts were, or are to be, created together --", which >>ambiguifies the causality and sequence. > >Mark? Pamela? Can he say that? I nearly think that he *did* just say that. -- David Goldfarb <*>| "It's not called 'The Net of a Million Lies' goldfarb at ocf.berkeley.edu | for nothing." goldfarb at csua.berkeley.edu | -- Vernor Vinge, _A Fire Upon the Deep_ From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Tue Aug 19 01:27:05 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:27:05 -0700 Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030819012533.030c7d90@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030819012533.030c7d90@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:26:06 -0700, you wrote: >At 10:35 PM 8/18/2003 -0700, David Silberstein wrote: >> On the other hand, he also says: "The >>two artifacts were, or are to be, created together --", which >>ambiguifies the causality and sequence. > >Mark? Pamela? Can he say that? > > If that's not a word, it damned well should be. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Tue Aug 19 01:30:22 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:30:22 -0700 Subject: House Animals In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030819012347.030c7940@localhost> References: <20030819030502.96363.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20030819012347.030c7940@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:24:06 -0700, you wrote: >At 08:05 PM 8/18/2003 -0700, Hans Schweitzer wrote: >> >http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/treats/dzurlordintro.html >> >> >Check it out. I'm rather surprised at how my guesses went. Another note, >> >for gloating factor, is that I figured a bear had to be in there somewhere. >> >Only one I had no clue with was the Iorich and the Jhegaala, and hey, that >> >ain't bad. >> >> >> >>That introduction was informative. > >Not, however, canonical, as far as I know. > > > Am I remembering correctly, that you described the tsalmoth as a giant land oyster? That was bizarre. My spell checker suggested "stepmother" as a replacement for tsalmoth. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From TimN at rcn.com Tue Aug 19 06:22:50 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:22:50 -0400 Subject: House Animals References: <20030819030502.96363.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20030819012347.030c7940@localhost> Message-ID: <005601c36654$fdc8ff00$d916fea9@ananda> Careful, it's trying to ambiguify things. :) ----- Original Message ----- From: lazarus To: Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 4:30 AM Subject: Re: House Animals [teh sneep] On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:24:06 -0700, you wrote: That was bizarre. My spell checker suggested "stepmother" as a replacement for tsalmoth. From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Tue Aug 19 06:53:28 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:53:28 -0400 Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030819135328.GA23504@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 at 10:35:38PM -0700, David Silberstein wrote: > But I note the paragraph following that little temporal brain-breaker > says that "Some of our people desired divinity and crafted artifacts > to find and destroy those who sit on the Thrones of Judgment. One of > these became [Pathfinder]. [...] The other was taken by the Gods, and > an attempt was made to destroy it." Which might explain Verras response when she first sees Spellbreaker. -- "People tend to hit me." -- Mike Wayne, late 1989 From awick at cs.utah.edu Tue Aug 19 07:34:26 2003 From: awick at cs.utah.edu (Adam Wick) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 08:34:26 -0600 Subject: House Animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3BF42C84-D252-11D7-A992-000393DC83F0@cs.utah.edu> On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 02:30 AM, lazarus wrote: > That was bizarre. My spell checker suggested "stepmother" as a > replacement for tsalmoth. ... and now you know what a tsalmoth really is. Come on, "tsalmoth maintains though none knows how." You thought it "maintain" was meant in some sort of mystical sense, or referred to the empire as a whole. No, no, no. They're maintaining in the face of the horrific, cruel, thoughtless, heartless acts of their stepchildren. Like not calling on Mother's Day, bringing home That Sort Of Girl/Boy, etc. -Adam From charles_sumner at harvard.edu Tue Aug 19 08:26:55 2003 From: charles_sumner at harvard.edu (charles_sumner at harvard.edu) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 11:26:55 -0400 Subject: Great Weapons Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030819112649.038ba090@camail2.harvard.edu> > > I confess that I am still puzzled as to why Aliera's soul was > > sufficiently valuable to be retrieved from the Paths by such > > extreme and unprecedently measures. > >Morrolan got the idea into his head. Once that happens, not >even Sethra Lavode is likely to be able to convince him to stop :-) And it's not like Morrolan didn't have a good reason for taking whatever risks were involved with going into the Paths to retrieve Aleria. She was the only possible person (that he knew of at the time) who could take his place as Dragon Heir. With the exception of Adron, we've never met a Dragon who wanted to be the Emperor. Heck, it's not too long after that that Aleria begins searching for a way to get herself out of being the Heir. Charley Sumner charles_sumner at harvard.edu "Let's not jump to any conclusions." "I didn't jump. I took a tiny step, and there conclusions were." Buffy the Vampire Slayer - "Phases" From pddb at demesne.com Tue Aug 19 09:02:59 2003 From: pddb at demesne.com (pddb at demesne.com) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 11:02:59 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030819012533.030c7d90@localhost>; from skzb@dreamcafe.com on Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 01:26:06AM -0700 References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030819012533.030c7d90@localhost> Message-ID: <20030819110259.A22052@gw.dd-b.net> On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 01:26:06AM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: > At 10:35 PM 8/18/2003 -0700, David Silberstein wrote: > > On the other hand, he also says: "The > >two artifacts were, or are to be, created together --", which > >ambiguifies the causality and sequence. > > Mark? Pamela? Can he say that? Sure, as long as he's being whimsical about it. If he's being serious, I'd think it should be "ambiguate." Though these opinions simply reflect the ways in which I've happened to see the words used. In a context of literary criticism, I'm much more accustomed to "ambiguate." But I'm not really up on modern lit-crit. And in any case, I guess you might say that the above context is what the Serioli makes it -- whether that would be physics, history, or weapons design I do not know. "Make ambiguous" is less open to various charges, but it creates a sentence that is either very formal -- "makes ambiguous the casuality and sequence" or else is perhaps less formal than is desired -- "makes the casuality and sequence ambiguous." -- Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet (pddb at demesne.com) "I will open my heart to a blank page and interview the witnesses." John M. Ford, "Shared World" From jalipaz at stanford.edu Tue Aug 19 09:02:47 2003 From: jalipaz at stanford.edu (Julie Alipaz) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:02:47 -0700 Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: <55980.192.168.1.1.1061255863.squirrel@404.978.org> References: <20030816050905.GA2053@infodancer.org> <20030816062546.GB2053@infodancer.org> <55980.192.168.1.1.1061255863.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: It is all about being warlord---you can not be warlord and emperor--until aleria was found, morrolan was the heir aparent to the dragon throne--if you remember one of the reasons that aleira became so interested in genetics is that she herself wanted to not be emperess and to be warlord, therefore she was looking for norathar to replace her as heir---no dragon wants to be emperor they all want to be warlord --you can not do both. jaa >Matthew Hunter said: > >> I confess that I am still puzzled as to why Aliera's soul was >> sufficiently valuable to be retrieved from the Paths by such >> extreme and unprecedently measures. > > She *does* have some fairly impressive family connections... > > -Rick From charles_sumner at harvard.edu Tue Aug 19 09:14:29 2003 From: charles_sumner at harvard.edu (charles_sumner at harvard.edu) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 12:14:29 -0400 Subject: [SPOILERS] Dumas parallels and a wild theory In-Reply-To: References: <20030803193209.GD9964@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030819112708.00ac1758@camail2.harvard.edu> Warning: There Be Spoilers Ahead . . . . . . . . . . . . . . >Raoul, the Vicomte de Bragelone loves Louise de la Valliere. This love is, >at least at first, returned. But after she joins the royal court, she is >successfully wooed by the king, and becomes his mistress, thus breaking >Raoul's heart. >The parallel is not close, but definitely seems present, at least to me. Throughout these books Brust has paralleled Dumas, sometimes directly but often in more subtle ways. For example, Adron's disaster (and our heroes failed attempts to stop it) is the mirror for the death of King Charles I of England (and the Musketeers failed attempts to stop it). I think that the Raoul/Louise/King Louis XIV parallel is simply that a forbidden love has caused Piro to set himself against the throne. >Well, Brust is not trying to parallel Dumas' Three Musketeers series >exactly. That would be boring (in my opinion). He's got just enough in there >that the parallels amuse & surprise the reader, rather than making the >Khaavren romances predictable to those who have read Dumas. The divergence from Dumas that shocked me was Pel putting friendship above ambition and switching sides to fight for Zerika. As a Dumas fan, this totally blindsided me. OTOH, the gods make a comment at the end that do leave Pel's true motives a bit up in the air. I do wonder how many of these characters he's going to kill off in the next book, but my gut instinct is that it will be fewer than many people here have hypothesized. For one thing, Brust the author might want to keep them around to use in future Vlad novels. After all, if he's going to be writing another 10 Vlad books, he might want to mix things up a bit (it may be coincidence, but there's a textev in an early book to Vlad once dating an elf named Ibronka). Another thing to think about is that there are a whole mess of non-canonical Musketeer books that Brust could continue to draw from (some allegedly written by Dumas, although probably written by his workshop, and others written years later by other authors entirely). One of the "by Dumas" books deals with Aramis in his later days and the unknown son that Porthos had and another "non-Dumas" book is Aramis' memoirs. To reset that in the Vlad world, is there any textev about wether or not Zerika has a current Discreet? A book dealing with the Duke of Galstan and the politics of Zerika's court today would be great. My wild (and unsupported by textev) theory is that Piro will now end up as the Demon of the Jhereg. It's hard to reconcile with some of the things Vlad has said about the Demon, but not impossible, and it would certainly make a good dramatic set up for a future Vlad book. BTW, more details about the Dumas and non-Dumas Musketeer books can be found at: http://www.hoboes.com/html/FireBlade/Dumas/ Charley Sumner charles_sumner at harvard.edu "That's brilliant! They've hid the information in plain sight by disguising it as a web page." From brian.vanskyock at zimmer.com Tue Aug 19 09:16:54 2003 From: brian.vanskyock at zimmer.com (Brian Vanskyock) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 11:16:54 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030819012533.030c7d90@localhost> <20030819110259.A22052@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <3F424D76.24C2215D@zimmer.com> this is the coolest mailing list ever!!! b pddb at demesne.com wrote: > On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 01:26:06AM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: > > At 10:35 PM 8/18/2003 -0700, David Silberstein wrote: > > > On the other hand, he also says: "The > > >two artifacts were, or are to be, created together --", which > > >ambiguifies the causality and sequence. > > > > Mark? Pamela? Can he say that? > > Sure, as long as he's being whimsical about it. > > If he's being serious, I'd think it should be "ambiguate." > > Though these opinions simply reflect the ways in which I've > happened to see the words used. In a context of literary > criticism, I'm much more accustomed to "ambiguate." But I'm > not really up on modern lit-crit. And in any case, I > guess you might say that the above context is what the > Serioli makes it -- whether that would be physics, history, > or weapons design I do not know. > > "Make ambiguous" is less open to various charges, but it creates > a sentence that is either very formal -- "makes ambiguous the > casuality and sequence" or else is perhaps less formal than > is desired -- "makes the casuality and sequence ambiguous." > > -- > > Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet (pddb at demesne.com) > "I will open my heart to a blank page > and interview the witnesses." John M. Ford, "Shared World" From Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 19 09:35:43 2003 From: Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net (Daemian Spayde) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:35:43 -0700 Subject: Literary Ambiguification References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030819012533.030c7d90@localhost> <20030819110259.A22052@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <007201c3666f$ef516dc0$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> What is rather scary is that Pamela explained that almost exactly how my g/f did after reading that post. What is it with the way English/Literary Majors explain English that causes us Creative Math Freaks to get the Heebie Jeebies? ::shiver:: Daemian "Insert witty quote here," Katt Jean. ================= IFGS SoCal President socal.ifgs.org ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Steven Brust" Cc: "David Silberstein" ; "Dragaera List" Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 9:02 AM Subject: Re: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) > On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 01:26:06AM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: > > At 10:35 PM 8/18/2003 -0700, David Silberstein wrote: > > On the other hand, he also says: "The > > >two artifacts were, or are to be, created together --", which > > >ambiguifies the causality and sequence. > > > > Mark? Pamela? Can he say that? > > Sure, as long as he's being whimsical about it. > > If he's being serious, I'd think it should be "ambiguate." > > Though these opinions simply reflect the ways in which I've > happened to see the words used. In a context of literary > criticism, I'm much more accustomed to "ambiguate." But I'm > not really up on modern lit-crit. And in any case, I > guess you might say that the above context is what the > Serioli makes it -- whether that would be physics, history, > or weapons design I do not know. > > "Make ambiguous" is less open to various charges, but it creates > a sentence that is either very formal -- "makes ambiguous the > casuality and sequence" or else is perhaps less formal than > is desired -- "makes the casuality and sequence ambiguous." > > > -- > > Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet (pddb at demesne.com) > "I will open my heart to a blank page > and interview the witnesses." John M. Ford, "Shared World" From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Aug 19 10:34:33 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 19 Aug 2003 12:34:33 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) In-Reply-To: <20030819110259.A22052@gw.dd-b.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030819012533.030c7d90@localhost> <20030819110259.A22052@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: pddb at demesne.com writes: > On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 01:26:06AM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: > > At 10:35 PM 8/18/2003 -0700, David Silberstein wrote: > > > On the other hand, he also says: "The > > >two artifacts were, or are to be, created together --", which > > >ambiguifies the causality and sequence. > > > > Mark? Pamela? Can he say that? > > Sure, as long as he's being whimsical about it. > > If he's being serious, I'd think it should be "ambiguate." > > Though these opinions simply reflect the ways in which I've > happened to see the words used. In a context of literary > criticism, I'm much more accustomed to "ambiguate." But I'm > not really up on modern lit-crit. And in any case, I > guess you might say that the above context is what the > Serioli makes it -- whether that would be physics, history, > or weapons design I do not know. > > "Make ambiguous" is less open to various charges, but it creates > a sentence that is either very formal -- "makes ambiguous the > casuality and sequence" or else is perhaps less formal than > is desired -- "makes the casuality and sequence ambiguous." Would "ambiguate" be a lost-positive form of "disambiguate", then? -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera mailing lists: From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Aug 19 10:35:35 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 19 Aug 2003 12:35:35 -0500 Subject: Literary Ambiguification In-Reply-To: <007201c3666f$ef516dc0$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030819012533.030c7d90@localhost> <20030819110259.A22052@gw.dd-b.net> <007201c3666f$ef516dc0$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> Message-ID: "Daemian Spayde" writes: > What is rather scary is that Pamela explained that almost exactly how my g/f > did after reading that post. > > What is it with the way English/Literary Majors explain English that causes > us Creative Math Freaks to get the Heebie Jeebies? ::shiver:: You get used to it after a while. (Then again I think my verbal SAT may have been higher than my math, though I ended up being a math major and my career has been in computer programming.) -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera mailing lists: From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Aug 19 10:51:43 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 12:51:43 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) In-Reply-To: <3F424D76.24C2215D@zimmer.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030819012533.030c7d90@localhost> <20030819110259.A22052@gw.dd-b.net> <3F424D76.24C2215D@zimmer.com> Message-ID: <20030819175142.GB1982@infodancer.org> On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 11:16:54AM -0500, Brian Vanskyock wrote: > this is the coolest mailing list ever!!! Wait'll you see the movie version. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From alexx at theworld.com Tue Aug 19 10:40:08 2003 From: alexx at theworld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:40:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: House Animals In-Reply-To: <20030819030502.96363.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> from "Hans Schweitzer" at Aug 18, 2003 08:05:02 PM Message-ID: <200308191740.NAA13041589@shell.TheWorld.com> > That introduction was informative. I had been getting ready to write a theory about overcast because I didn't remember it being called pollution in any of the books. The only thing that stopped me was that I've had that theory for so long I couldn't be sure it wasn't in any of the books. Well at least I was right (but its more fun to be wrong) ... Anyone know how I can get a copy of Dzurlord? Bookfinder.com usually has some copies for $10+shipping. Mint copies apparently go for up to around $50, but I wouldn't recommend it. The bulk of the book is certainly non-canonical, and SKZB has just apparently thrown doubt as to how canonical one can consider his introduction (which is available on-line anyways). Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "As I see things, the underlying spiritual landscape of all the world's religions and belief systems is the same territory, just as a canine quadraped is essentially the same animal the world over, whether we choose to label it 'chien' or 'hund' or 'dog'. As with dogs, so too with gods. [...] I see all these forms as being languages, while I see magic as being more akin to linguistics, the science of languages." -- Alan Moore, in correspondence with Dave Sim about _From Hell_ From mam at theworld.com Tue Aug 19 11:11:08 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 14:11:08 -0400 Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030819012533.030c7d90@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Aug 2003, Steven Brust wrote: #At 10:35 PM 8/18/2003 -0700, David Silberstein wrote: #> On the other hand, he also says: "The #>two artifacts were, or are to be, created together --", which #>ambiguifies the causality and sequence. # #Mark? Pamela? Can he say that? Well, he DID, so obviously he CAN. But I would prefer "ambiguate", as Pamela has already commented. I'm not familiar with "ambiguate", but "disambiguate" has been in my technical vocabulary (linguistics) since grad school. It has my vote for one of the ugliest but most useful words I know. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From charles_sumner at harvard.edu Tue Aug 19 11:21:52 2003 From: charles_sumner at harvard.edu (charles_sumner at harvard.edu) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 14:21:52 -0400 Subject: House Animals In-Reply-To: <200308191740.NAA13041589@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <20030819030502.96363.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030819142026.00adc668@camail2.harvard.edu> At 01:40 PM 8/19/2003 -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > That introduction was informative. I had been getting ready to write a > theory about overcast because I didn't remember it being called pollution > in any of the books. The only thing that stopped me was that I've had > that theory for so long I couldn't be sure it wasn't in any of the > books. Well at least I was right (but its more fun to be wrong) > ... Anyone know how I can get a copy of Dzurlord? > >Bookfinder.com usually has some copies for $10+shipping. Mint copies >apparently go for up to around $50, but I wouldn't recommend it. The bulk >of the book is certainly non-canonical, and SKZB has just apparently thrown >doubt as to how canonical one can consider his introduction (which is >available on-line anyways). And in point of fact, it's really not that good of a choose-your-own-adventure anyway. I found myself getting bored with it pretty quickly. Charley Sumner charles_sumner at harvard.edu "That's brilliant! They've hid the information in plain sight by disguising it as a web page." From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Aug 19 11:24:45 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 11:24:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Aug 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Tue, 19 Aug 2003, Steven Brust wrote: > > #At 10:35 PM 8/18/2003 -0700, David Silberstein wrote: > #> On the other hand, he also says: "The > #>two artifacts were, or are to be, created together --", which > #>ambiguifies the causality and sequence. > # > #Mark? Pamela? Can he say that? > > Well, he DID, so obviously he CAN. But I would prefer "ambiguate", as > Pamela has already commented. I'm not familiar with "ambiguate", but > "disambiguate" has been in my technical vocabulary (linguistics) since > grad school. It has my vote for one of the ugliest but most useful words > I know. What's wrong with "clarify" or "correct" or (Fowler's) "remove"? From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Aug 19 11:28:25 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:28:25 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030819182825.GB21158@infodancer.org> On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 11:24:45AM -0700, Philip Hart wrote: > On Tue, 19 Aug 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > > On Tue, 19 Aug 2003, Steven Brust wrote: > > #At 10:35 PM 8/18/2003 -0700, David Silberstein wrote: > > #> On the other hand, he also says: "The > > #>two artifacts were, or are to be, created together --", which > > #>ambiguifies the causality and sequence. > > #Mark? Pamela? Can he say that? > > Well, he DID, so obviously he CAN. But I would prefer "ambiguate", as > > Pamela has already commented. I'm not familiar with "ambiguate", but > > "disambiguate" has been in my technical vocabulary (linguistics) since > > grad school. It has my vote for one of the ugliest but most useful words > > I know. > What's wrong with "clarify" or "correct" or (Fowler's) "remove"? It doesn't mean the same thing. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From alexx at theworld.com Tue Aug 19 10:54:13 2003 From: alexx at theworld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:54:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [SPOILERS] Dumas parallels and a wild theory In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030819112708.00ac1758@camail2.harvard.edu> from "charles_sumner@harvard.edu" at Aug 19, 2003 12:14:29 PM Message-ID: <200308191754.NAA12987888@shell.TheWorld.com> > > Warning: There Be Spoilers Ahead > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . > . [snip] > The divergence from Dumas that shocked me was Pel putting friendship above > ambition and switching sides to fight for Zerika. As a Dumas fan, this > totally blindsided me. OTOH, the gods make a comment at the end that do > leave Pel's true motives a bit up in the air. Blindsided me, too. I think one of the primary differences between Brust and Dumas is that Brust is less of a bastard :-) He is reluctant to put his characters though as much emotional conflict as Dumas was. And note that Brust was unable (or perhaps merely unwilling) to come up with any antagonist characters remotely as compelling as Milady and Mordaunt. Greycat and Grita stand in a loosely-parallel position, but neither of them has (IMNSHO) the palpable sense of power and evil that graced Dumas' villains. [snip] > To reset that > in the Vlad world, is there any textev about wether or not Zerika has a > current Discreet? A book dealing with the Duke of Galstan and the politics > of Zerika's court today would be great. No textev for or against, so it's certainly open. I'd certainly buy such a book :-) [And even if he doesn't want to follow any of the non-Dumas books particularly, Aramis is the one Musketeer whose death Dumas doesn't mention.] [snip discussion of character's deaths] Hasn't Steve mentioned that this story extends past Vlad's time? That would let him kill off characters late in the book, but still have them around for Vlad to interact with. It would even be consistent with Dumas; while Dumas discusses D'Artagnan's death, it happens many years after the primary action of the book has concluded. > My wild (and unsupported by textev) theory is that Piro will now end up as > the Demon of the Jhereg. It's hard to reconcile with some of the things > Vlad has said about the Demon, but not impossible, Checking my timeline, Vlad makes two references to the Demon's age, which each place him as at least 300 years older than Piro. There's also the claim that he took a seat on the Jhereg Council "just after" the Interregnum, which would have to be an awfully fast series of promotions from "entry-level highwayman". Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "Admittedly, I do have several bones... whole war fields full of bones, in fact... to pick with organised religion of whatever stripe. This should be seen as a critique of purely temporal agencies who have, to my mind, erected more obstacles between humanity and whatever notion of spirituality or Godhead one subscribes to than they have opened doors. To me, the difference between Godhead and the Church is the difference between Elvis and Colonel Parker... although that conjures up images of God dying on the toilet, which is not what I meant at all." -- Alan Moore, in correspondence with Dave Sim about _From Hell_ From frank at exit.com Tue Aug 19 11:30:24 2003 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 11:30:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ugly words. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200308191830.h7JIUOTV057355@realtime.exit.com> Mark A Mandel wrote: > Well, he DID, so obviously he CAN. But I would prefer "ambiguate", as > Pamela has already commented. I'm not familiar with "ambiguate", but > "disambiguate" has been in my technical vocabulary (linguistics) since > grad school. It has my vote for one of the ugliest but most useful words > I know. "Fungible." Ugly, yet almost entirely useless. Of course it's used quite commonly among software folks, particularly those with advanced degrees, who should really know better. And don't even get me started on "functionality." Argh. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Aug 19 11:35:12 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 11:35:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) In-Reply-To: <20030819182825.GB21158@infodancer.org> References: <20030819182825.GB21158@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Aug 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 11:24:45AM -0700, Philip Hart wrote: > > On Tue, 19 Aug 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > > > On Tue, 19 Aug 2003, Steven Brust wrote: > > > #At 10:35 PM 8/18/2003 -0700, David Silberstein wrote: > > > #> On the other hand, he also says: "The > > > #>two artifacts were, or are to be, created together --", which > > > #>ambiguifies the causality and sequence. > > > #Mark? Pamela? Can he say that? > > > Well, he DID, so obviously he CAN. But I would prefer "ambiguate", as > > > Pamela has already commented. I'm not familiar with "ambiguate", but > > > "disambiguate" has been in my technical vocabulary (linguistics) since > > > grad school. It has my vote for one of the ugliest but most useful words > > > I know. > > What's wrong with "clarify" or "correct" or (Fowler's) "remove"? > > It doesn't mean the same thing. Latin, gibberish, ... - I miss the good old days when this list used English. From pddb at demesne.com Tue Aug 19 11:52:53 2003 From: pddb at demesne.com (pddb at demesne.com) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:52:53 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) In-Reply-To: ; from mam@theworld.com on Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 02:11:08PM -0400 References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030819012533.030c7d90@localhost> Message-ID: <20030819135253.B3576@gw.dd-b.net> On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 02:11:08PM -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Tue, 19 Aug 2003, Steven Brust wrote: > > #At 10:35 PM 8/18/2003 -0700, David Silberstein wrote: > #> On the other hand, he also says: "The > #>two artifacts were, or are to be, created together --", which > #>ambiguifies the causality and sequence. > # > #Mark? Pamela? Can he say that? > > Well, he DID, so obviously he CAN. But I would prefer "ambiguate", as > Pamela has already commented. I'm not familiar with "ambiguate", but > "disambiguate" has been in my technical vocabulary (linguistics) since > grad school. It has my vote for one of the ugliest but most useful words > I know. I cheated and Googled for it. There are quite a lot of hits for "ambiguate," mostly very recent. I imagine it's a back-formation >from "disambiguate", as David suggested. I have to confess that when "disambiguate" first crossed my path I was delighted to see it; it did seem to fill a much UNneeded gap. "Ambiguify" has far fewer hits, but among those is fiction by Norman Spinrad. I guess I could get used to it, but to my unfamiliar eyes it keeps trying to look like an adjective. -- Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet (pddb at demesne.com) "I will open my heart to a blank page and interview the witnesses." John M. Ford, "Shared World" From greyw01f at hotmail.com Tue Aug 19 12:10:55 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:10:55 +0000 Subject: Literary Ambiguification Message-ID: hey! don't bash the english major! My girlfriend, the microbiologist wanna-be, does MORE than enough of that--possibly because she's better at english than I am, at times...the bitch :P Jon _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From charles_sumner at harvard.edu Tue Aug 19 12:11:58 2003 From: charles_sumner at harvard.edu (charles_sumner at harvard.edu) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 15:11:58 -0400 Subject: [SPOILERS] Dumas parallels and a wild theory In-Reply-To: <200308191754.NAA12987888@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030819112708.00ac1758@camail2.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030819145232.038ca130@camail2.harvard.edu> At 01:54 PM 8/19/2003 -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > > > Warning: There Be Spoilers Ahead > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . >Hasn't Steve mentioned that this story extends past Vlad's time? That >would let him kill off characters late in the book, but still have them >around for Vlad to interact with. It would even be consistent with Dumas; >while Dumas discusses D'Artagnan's death, it happens many years after the >primary action of the book has concluded. Hmmm... I thought I had seen something which implied that the next book would be dealing with events that took place during the first year of Zerika's reign. OTOH, you did remind me that D'Artagnan's death does take place in an epilogue that takes place well after the other events. Given that Brust could still do both things, have the next book cover another year or so in the main story, then have an epilogue that takes place many years later (after Vlad's time), wherein a number of the characters are killed off. We'll have to wait 8 months to find out. > > My wild (and unsupported by textev) theory is that Piro will now end up as > > the Demon of the Jhereg. It's hard to reconcile with some of the things > > Vlad has said about the Demon, but not impossible, > > Checking my timeline, Vlad makes two references to the >Demon's age, which each place him as at least 300 years older than Piro. >There's also the claim that he took a seat on the Jhereg Council "just >after" the Interregnum, which would have to be an awfully fast series of >promotions from "entry-level highwayman". To defend this wild theory, let me just say that Vlad could be a poor judge of someone's age and the life of a bandit (and emotional pain caused by his new choices) may cause Piro to look older than he really is. "Just after" is a difficult phrase, although we know that elves have a different sense of time from humans, but perhaps the rebuilding Jhereg council would see some benefit to quickly advancing the son of the Captain of the Phoenix Guards. OTOH, your skepticism is not without merit, I doubt it myself. It was just a fun idea that occurred to me. We speculate endlessly on who Mario might be, but I haven't heard much discussion about the Demon. Charley Sumner charles_sumner at harvard.edu "Let's not jump to any conclusions." "I didn't jump. I took a tiny step, and there conclusions were." Buffy the Vampire Slayer - "Phases" From greyw01f at hotmail.com Tue Aug 19 12:13:58 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:13:58 +0000 Subject: Movie version? Message-ID: Movie version? Of the mailing list? And if it's of the Vladiad, can I put in my two cents and veto a Bakshi production? *shudders at the 3 hour "Lord of the Rings" that he sat through once...* Jon
 
----Original Message Follows---- From: Matthew Hunter To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 12:51:43 -0500 On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 11:16:54AM -0500, Brian Vanskyock wrote: > this is the coolest mailing list ever!!! Wait'll you see the movie version. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From bjf at wavefront.com Tue Aug 19 12:25:20 2003 From: bjf at wavefront.com (Beth Friedman) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 14:25:20 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) In-Reply-To: <20030819135253.B3576@gw.dd-b.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030819012533.030c7d90@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030819142150.05670870@shell.visi.com> In our previous episode at 01:52 PM 8/19/03, pddb at demesne.com wrote: >I cheated and Googled for it. There are quite a lot of hits for >"ambiguate," mostly very recent. I imagine it's a back-formation >from "disambiguate", as David suggested. I have to confess that >when "disambiguate" first crossed my path I was delighted to see >it; it did seem to fill a much UNneeded gap. "Disambiguate" is in AHD3 and MW10 dating from 1963; neither has "ambiguate." However, there are newer editions of both dictionaries (that I don't own yet), so it might have made it into the latest edition. (My first thought when I read that was "What kind of gap does the UN need?") -- Beth Friedman / bjf at wavefront.com There are 10 types of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those who don't. From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Aug 19 12:33:10 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 14:33:10 -0500 Subject: Movie version? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030819193310.GC21158@infodancer.org> On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 07:13:58PM +0000, Jon Carey wrote: > Movie version? Of the mailing list? It was a joke. > And if it's of the Vladiad, can I put in my two cents and veto a Bakshi > production? It was a joke. The pronoun ambuification is deliberately imprecise. > *shudders at the 3 hour "Lord of the Rings" that he sat through once...* That better be a joyful shudder, son. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Aug 19 12:35:10 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 14:35:10 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) In-Reply-To: References: <20030819182825.GB21158@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20030819193510.GD21158@infodancer.org> On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 11:35:12AM -0700, Philip Hart wrote: > Latin, gibberish, ... - I miss the good old days when this list used > English. Who are you kidding? English IS latin gibberish. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Aug 19 12:38:12 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 19 Aug 2003 14:38:12 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030819142150.05670870@shell.visi.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030819012533.030c7d90@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20030819142150.05670870@shell.visi.com> Message-ID: Beth Friedman writes: > (My first thought when I read that was "What kind of gap does the UN need?") Probably some sort of demilitarized zone. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera mailing lists: From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Aug 19 12:41:07 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 12:41:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) In-Reply-To: <20030819193510.GD21158@infodancer.org> References: <20030819182825.GB21158@infodancer.org> <20030819193510.GD21158@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Aug 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 11:35:12AM -0700, Philip Hart wrote: > > Latin, gibberish, ... - I miss the good old days when this list used > > English. > > Who are you kidding? English IS latin gibberish. G G G/L G G G/L L ? From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Aug 19 12:42:33 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 14:42:33 -0500 Subject: [SPOILERS] Dumas parallels and a wild theory In-Reply-To: <200308191754.NAA12987888@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030819112708.00ac1758@camail2.harvard.edu> <200308191754.NAA12987888@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <20030819194233.GE21158@infodancer.org> On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 01:54:13PM -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > > > Warning: There Be Spoilers Ahead > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > > . > [snip] > > > The divergence from Dumas that shocked me was Pel putting friendship above > > ambition and switching sides to fight for Zerika. As a Dumas fan, this > > totally blindsided me. OTOH, the gods make a comment at the end that do > > leave Pel's true motives a bit up in the air. > Blindsided me, too. I think one of the primary differences between Brust > and Dumas is that Brust is less of a bastard :-) He is reluctant to put > his characters though as much emotional conflict as Dumas was. And note > that Brust was unable (or perhaps merely unwilling) to come up with any > antagonist characters remotely as compelling as Milady and Mordaunt. > Greycat and Grita stand in a loosely-parallel position, but neither of > them has (IMNSHO) the palpable sense of power and evil that graced > Dumas' villains. I think this is a fair criticism. We haven't really had any truly menacing characters in Dragaera. Personally, I would like some, though it might substantially change the tone of the series. Maybe Vlad needs a recurring antagonist? The Jenoine might be slated to fill this role, but I don't think they would do it necessarily well. > Hasn't Steve mentioned that this story extends past Vlad's time? That > would let him kill off characters late in the book, but still have them > around for Vlad to interact with. It would even be consistent with Dumas; > while Dumas discusses D'Artagnan's death, it happens many years after the > primary action of the book has concluded. I'm not at all sure how Brust is going to handle this, but I figure it'll be tricky no matter what. > > My wild (and unsupported by textev) theory is that Piro will now end up as > > the Demon of the Jhereg. It's hard to reconcile with some of the things > > Vlad has said about the Demon, but not impossible, > > Checking my timeline, Vlad makes two references to the > Demon's age, which each place him as at least 300 years older than Piro. > There's also the claim that he took a seat on the Jhereg Council "just > after" the Interregnum, which would have to be an awfully fast series of > promotions from "entry-level highwayman". Oh, I don't know. His adventures with Zerika undoubtedly gained him a few fighter-levels. If he dual-classes as a thief around, say, 5th level, he could rise fairly rapidly. Especially as he is familiar with Adrilankha, which will become the new capital. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Aug 19 12:48:25 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 19 Aug 2003 14:48:25 -0500 Subject: Movie version? In-Reply-To: <20030819193310.GC21158@infodancer.org> References: <20030819193310.GC21158@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Matthew Hunter writes: > On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 07:13:58PM +0000, Jon Carey wrote: > > *shudders at the 3 hour "Lord of the Rings" that he sat through once...* > > That better be a joyful shudder, son. Nope, a shudder of pure horror. Have you *seen* the Bakshi LotR film? *shudder*. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera mailing lists: From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Aug 19 12:49:35 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 19 Aug 2003 14:49:35 -0500 Subject: [SPOILERS] Dumas parallels and a wild theory In-Reply-To: <20030819194233.GE21158@infodancer.org> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030819112708.00ac1758@camail2.harvard.edu> <200308191754.NAA12987888@shell.TheWorld.com> <20030819194233.GE21158@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Matthew Hunter writes: > I think this is a fair criticism. We haven't really had any > truly menacing characters in Dragaera. Personally, I would like > some, though it might substantially change the tone of the > series. Maybe Vlad needs a recurring antagonist? The Jenoine > might be slated to fill this role, but I don't think they would > do it necessarily well. I dunno. I think Sethra, and Aliera, and Morollan, and Vlad are *really* menacing character. *I* sure wouldn't want to argue with them about anything too important. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera mailing lists: From bio_phy at hotmail.com Tue Aug 19 12:47:05 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 14:47:05 -0500 Subject: Vlad Actors Message-ID: >On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 07:13:58PM +0000, Jon Carey >wrote: > > Movie version? Of the mailing list? > >It was a joke. That begs an interesting question (if I may veer into tangent): Who would you suggest to play the major characters of the Vlad novels? johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ _________________________________________________________________ Get MSN 8 and help protect your children with advanced parental controls. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental From pddb at demesne.com Tue Aug 19 13:13:44 2003 From: pddb at demesne.com (pddb at demesne.com) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 15:13:44 -0500 Subject: [SPOILERS] Dumas parallels and a wild theory In-Reply-To: ; from dd-b@dd-b.net on Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 02:49:35PM -0500 References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030819112708.00ac1758@camail2.harvard.edu> <200308191754.NAA12987888@shell.TheWorld.com> <20030819194233.GE21158@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20030819151344.A12526@gw.dd-b.net> On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 02:49:35PM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Matthew Hunter writes: > > > I think this is a fair criticism. We haven't really had any > > truly menacing characters in Dragaera. Personally, I would like > > some, though it might substantially change the tone of the > > series. Maybe Vlad needs a recurring antagonist? The Jenoine > > might be slated to fill this role, but I don't think they would > > do it necessarily well. > > I dunno. I think Sethra, and Aliera, and Morollan, and Vlad are > *really* menacing character. *I* sure wouldn't want to argue with > them about anything too important. Yeah, that was my reaction too. I wonder if this is really a question of tone. If you just listed the various characteristics and actions of those people and other characters in a straightforward fashion, they'd seem pretty menacing, but Vlad doesn't like to seem impressed and Paarfi, well, let us say perhaps that Vlad is given to understatement and Paarfi to overstatement, which may cast an unmenacing light on these people. -- Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet (pddb at demesne.com) "I will open my heart to a blank page and interview the witnesses." John M. Ford, "Shared World" From Randi128 at aol.com Tue Aug 19 13:12:30 2003 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:12:30 EDT Subject: [SPOILERS] Dumas parallels and a wild theory Message-ID: <111.26f3b3d7.2c73deae@aol.com> >>Maybe Vlad needs a recurring antagonist? The Jenoine >> might be slated to fill this role, but I don't think they would >> do it necessarily well. >I dunno. I think Sethra, and Aliera, and Morollan, and Vlad are >*really* menacing character. *I* sure wouldn't want to argue with >them about anything too important. >-- >David Dyer-Bennet, , I believe that the Jhereg council could fit the bill at this point. Let's see... they turn up looking for Vlad in the last three books.... and probably the next book, or until Vlad settles that score. John D. Barbato, OD From kublakhan73 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 19 13:42:50 2003 From: kublakhan73 at hotmail.com (Jeremy Tassoff) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:42:50 -0400 Subject: Ambiguate and other created words (off-topic) Message-ID: Howdy folks, I'm a long time lurker on the mailing list and after reading the discussion today, I finally decided to jump in and add my two cents... The Washington Post's Style Invitational once again asked readers to take any word from the dictionary, alter it by adding or subtracting one letter, and supply a new definition. Here are the 2003 winners: 1) Intaxication: Euphoria at getting a tax refund, which lasts until you realize it was your money to start with. 2) Reintarnation: Coming back to life as a hillbilly. 3) Bozone (n.): The substance surrounding stupid people that stops bright ideas from penetrating. The bozone layer, unfortunately, shows little sign of breaking down in the near future. 4) Foreploy: Any misrepresentation about yourself for the purpose of getting laid. 5) Cashtration (n.): The act of buying a house, which renders the subject financially impotent for an indefinite period. 6) Giraffiti: Vandalism spray-painted very, very high. 7) Sarchasm: The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it. 8) Inoculatte: To take coffee intravenously when you are running late. 9) Hipatitis: Terminal coolness. 10) Osteopornosis: A degenerate disease. (This one got extra credit.) 11) Karmageddon: It's like, when everybody is sending off all these really bad vibes, right? And then, like, the Earth explodes and it's like, a serious bummer. 12) Decafalon (n.): The grueling event of getting through the day consuming only things that are good for you. 13) Glibido: All talk and no action. 14) Dopeler effect: The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter when they come at you rapidly. 15) Arachnoleptic fit (n.): The frantic dance performed just after you've accidentally walked through a spider web. 16) Beelzebug (n.): Satan in the form of a mosquito that gets into your bedroom at three in the morning and cannot be cast out. 17) Caterpallor (n.): The color you turn after finding half a grub in the fruit you're eating. And the pick of the LITERature: 18) Ignoranus: A person who's both stupid and an asshole. From valerie at drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 13:50:14 2003 From: valerie at drizzle.com (valerie at drizzle.com) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:50:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vlad Actors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50200.206.124.138.14.1061326214.squirrel@drizzlemail.drizzle.com> > > That begs an interesting question (if I may veer into tangent): > > Who would you suggest to play the major characters of the Vlad novels? > > johne (phy) cook > wisconsin, usa vlad: alan rickman (looks ala "die hard" attitude ala "dogma") http://www.imdb.com/EGallery?source=ss&group=0095016&photo=Ss/0095016/DHinset1.jpg&path=pgallery&path_key=Rickman,%20Alan From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Aug 19 13:53:24 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 19 Aug 2003 15:53:24 -0500 Subject: Vlad Actors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Johne Cook" writes: > > On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 07:13:58PM +0000, Jon Carey > > wrote: > > > Movie version? Of the mailing list? > > > >It was a joke. > > That begs an interesting question (if I may veer into tangent): > > Who would you suggest to play the major characters of the Vlad novels? I would vehemently oppose any attempt to film this, or any other favorite book of mine. Ick. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera mailing lists: From ryan at wonko.com Tue Aug 19 13:52:51 2003 From: ryan at wonko.com (Ryan Grove) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:52:51 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: Vlad Actors Message-ID: Johne Cook wrote: > That begs an interesting question (if I may veer into tangent): > > Who would you suggest to play the major characters of the Vlad novels? If we could go back in time to about 1990 or so, then I can easily see Vlad being played by Timothy Dalton. He's got the build, the mustache, the skill with rapiers, and the general air of stupendous badassery. Sadly, he's too old now. -- Ryan Grove ryan at wonko.com http://wonko.com/ From melalvai at kemenel.org Tue Aug 19 13:56:36 2003 From: melalvai at kemenel.org (Rachel L. Ruhlen) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 15:56:36 -0500 Subject: Dragaeran Age Message-ID: I've been puzzling over Dragaeran growth a bit. Here's some of my conjectures. It has been discussed that Vlad's comment about teenage Orca beating him up were the same physical size as a 5-yr-old human is not consistent with Morrolan growing up in the east and being mistaken for a tall human. Vlad's comment occurred in Jhereg and generally anything in Jhereg which conflicts with anything else loses to the anything else. I wouldn't mention Vlad's comment at all other than to discount it before someone else gets a chance to say "But in Jhereg..." except that it makes more sense to me that Dragaerans, living so much longer, mature & grow more slowly. Savn's tale supports that. He & the other youngsters thought & acted like rebellious teenage humans, not venerable 90 year olds. So I was watching Scientific American last night with Alan Alda and it was all about the brain. It was SO interesting. The frontal cortex is the part that concentrates and in little kids it isn't very well developed. There was a great experiment they showed that illustrated that so well. Then there's all sorts of plasticity to the brain but the take home message was, the old adage about people use only 10% of their brain, is simply not true. It's more like a big battle with everything fighting for brain space. After we've grown up, we can change what we use our brain for, but we can't add on to it. Anything new we learn, we have to give something else up. Then I read some article about a new adolescent period which occurs after college as more people choose to go to grad school. (It was in a newspaper. Not scientific or reputable at all.) It claimed (tongue-in-cheek) that hundreds of years ago, people who were 25 years old had been dead for 5 years. Well, that's an exaggeration I'm sure. Still, the point is, kids were grown up at 15. Not being an anthropologist or having any experience or knowledge (that's my disclaimer), I can't say how "grown up" a grown up 15 yr old is in that kind of culture. If we assume for the moment that a grown up 15 yr old behaves similarly to what our culture considers to be grown up (30? am I grown up yet?), then it is clear that adolescence can be prolonged. Physiologically, with adequate nutrition, we are completely mature in our early 20's. Depending on gender. (Reference: I believe it is Asimov's "The Human Brain" that says the brain sutures are finally complete by then.) That's older than what's previously been considered grown up, younger than what we consider grown up. So, does physiology or culture define "grown up"? As with so many other things, probably both. If so, then if you can prolong life, you can prolong childhood. It's a stretch, but let's say Dragaerans are physiologically mature at 20 years old, but have an adolescent period that lasts another 80 years. Right away I've thought of an argument to that theory. Tazendra says she barely remembered her parents' flight, she was only 30. The inability to remember very early events is definitely a physiological thing. I guess you can explain it away by saying that the brain is finite and to learn new things one must forget old things, so Dragaerans can't remember their "early" years. It's not satisfactory to me, however. Any thoughts? Please don't bring Sethra into this--she has mental access to a great big computer so she doesn't count. Rachel From bio_phy at hotmail.com Tue Aug 19 13:58:58 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 15:58:58 -0500 Subject: Vlad Actors Message-ID: I can see that. I think of Vlad as an edgy, brilliant guy, and one of the first actors to come to mind presently to fit that description is Johnny Depp. He's introspective enough and yet can be baddass enough. He also has that "hidden depths" thing going for him, and could pull off the kind of "adventure angst" feel that enclouds (heh) Vlad. One caveat - he'd have to lose the effiminate flair of his Capt. Jack Sparrow character - I don't get that vibe from Vlad at *all*. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ >From: Ryan Grove >If we could go back in time to about 1990 or so, then I can easily see >Vlad being played by Timothy Dalton. He's got the build, the mustache, >the skill with rapiers, and the general air of stupendous badassery. >Sadly, he's too old now. > >-- >Ryan Grove >ryan at wonko.com >http://wonko.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Aug 19 14:02:46 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 14:02:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vlad Actors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Aug 2003, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > "Johne Cook" writes: > > > > On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 07:13:58PM +0000, Jon Carey > > > wrote: > > > > Movie version? Of the mailing list? > > > > > >It was a joke. > > > > That begs an interesting question (if I may veer into tangent): > > > > Who would you suggest to play the major characters of the Vlad novels? > > I would vehemently oppose any attempt to film this, or any other > favorite book of mine. Ick. On the one hand, you're right; on the other hand, I want to see _The Last Hot Time_ with lots of beautiful actors and period costumes and good settings of the songs and strong set design and energetic economical direction. From greyw01f at hotmail.com Tue Aug 19 14:13:27 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 21:13:27 +0000 Subject: Movie version? Message-ID: my entire email was a joke, and have YOU ever seen the Bakshi LOTR? If not, DO NOT FOR THE SAKE OF YOUR SANITY I am a rabid tolkien fan, and I LOVE the new movies---but the Bakshi version is an AFFRONT TO GOD HIMSELF, and I'm sure he doesn't give a single crap about LOTR.... Jon
 
----Original Message Follows---- From: Matthew Hunter To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Movie version? Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 14:33:10 -0500 On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 07:13:58PM +0000, Jon Carey wrote: > Movie version? Of the mailing list? It was a joke. > And if it's of the Vladiad, can I put in my two cents and veto a Bakshi > production? It was a joke. The pronoun ambuification is deliberately imprecise. > *shudders at the 3 hour "Lord of the Rings" that he sat through once...* That better be a joyful shudder, son. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From dr.elmo at whiterose.org Tue Aug 19 14:15:23 2003 From: dr.elmo at whiterose.org (Greg Morrow) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:15:23 -0500 Subject: Next Vlad Book (was: Dumas parallels...) In-Reply-To: <111.26f3b3d7.2c73deae@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030819160119.0243e5e0@mail.whiterose.org> Randi128 at aol.com wondered aloud to the group: >I believe that the Jhereg council could fit the bill at this point. Let's >see... they turn up looking for Vlad in the last three books.... and >probably the >next book, or until Vlad settles that score. There's a scene in my head that occurs after the end of Issola. Mild SPOILERS for Issola Vlad's enjoying some quasi-Hungarian dessert pastry at Valabar's. The Demon sits down at his table. (No Jhereg would "work" in Valabar's, of course, but the Council would get tipped off within minutes if Vlad appeared almost anywhere in Adrilankha.) The Demon's polite, of course, doesn't ask direct questions, circles around his topic, but his main point is that Vlad isn't stupid enough to show up at Valabar's when the Jheregs want him bad enough that they might just be willing to ignore the custom and go after him anyway, let alone waiting for him outside and having the whole Left Hand standing ready to block his escape. So the Demon wants to know what Vlad thinks he's got. At the end of the conversation or the fight that follows, there is, one way or another, a truce between Vlad and the Jhereg. This scene, while fun to think about, wouldn't appear in the book, because, of course, the audience already knows what Vlad's got, and that's a false payoff. -- "King Arthur was able to unite the various English tribes and drive off the Vikings via the bold and resourceful maneuver of serving them relentlessly bland food, a tradition that remains in England today despite numerous armed attempts by the French to invade with sauces."--Dave Barry mailto:Dr.Elmo at whiterose.org http://www.whiterose.org/dr.elmo/blog/ From awick at cs.utah.edu Tue Aug 19 14:27:07 2003 From: awick at cs.utah.edu (Adam Wick) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 15:27:07 -0600 Subject: [SPOILERS] Dumas parallels and a wild theory In-Reply-To: <20030819194233.GE21158@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 01:42 PM, Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 01:54:13PM -0400, Alexx S Kay > wrote: >>> >>> Warning: There Be Spoilers Ahead >>> . >>> . >>> . >>> . >>> . >>> . >>> . >>> . >>> . >>> . >>> . >>> . >>> . >>> . >> [snip] >> >>> The divergence from Dumas that shocked me was Pel putting friendship >>> above >>> ambition and switching sides to fight for Zerika. As a Dumas fan, >>> this >>> totally blindsided me. OTOH, the gods make a comment at the end >>> that do >>> leave Pel's true motives a bit up in the air. >> Blindsided me, too. I think one of the primary differences between >> Brust >> and Dumas is that Brust is less of a bastard :-) He is reluctant to >> put >> his characters though as much emotional conflict as Dumas was. And >> note >> that Brust was unable (or perhaps merely unwilling) to come up with >> any >> antagonist characters remotely as compelling as Milady and Mordaunt. >> Greycat and Grita stand in a loosely-parallel position, but neither of >> them has (IMNSHO) the palpable sense of power and evil that graced >> Dumas' villains. > I think this is a fair criticism. Maybe, but it's actually something I rather like about the books. Truly menacing, powerful, evil figures are pretty thin on the ground around Earth, and I'm guessing the population of Earth far exceeds the population of Dragaera. So I'd imagine they'd pop up even less often there. Instead, we see a lot of people who aren't truly evil screwing up. Adron could easily be cast as a power-hungry, evil bastard, but instead we find someone who thought they were doing the right thing in general, had a bad reaction to circumstance and screwed up big. The Jenoine could be cast as truly evil bastards, but quite frankly, they seem to show up as basically scientists with pretty questionable ethics trying to get their experiment back under control. Or at least figure out what went wrong. I mean, if I was running an experiment on the behavior of parakeets in a hot, urban classroom, and then one of my lab techs suddenly caused the classroom, the university, the city and the suburbs surrounding to explode into a roiling sea of chaos, I'd sure as hell want to know what happened. Probably wouldn't care too much about what I did to the remaining parakeets in the process, either. Basically, Dragaera seems to be populated with a bunch of normal (albeit maybe a little more touchy on average) people with big toys. Take Morrolon. Touchy guy, yes, but I'm guessing if you gave your standard, struggling grad student (or even, perhaps, writer) witchcraft, sorcery (post- and pre-empire), a floating castle and "an infantry battalion disguised as a sword," you'd see something pretty similar. I mean, which is going to be more effective: politely asking the power company to please not lose electricity while you're working on your Very Important Paper, or furiously marching into the board room with a soul-eating sword and suggesting that next time, you're not going to be able to contain yourself? While the latter is much more menacing and evil, it would be a hard temptation to avoid. Trust me on that one. I suspect SKZB and PDDB (do all the Scribblies have four initials, and/or is this merely coincidence?) would probably feel similarly if they were in the middle of a writer's hot streak and a power outage took out a few hours work on their latest manuscript. Anyways. Making up truly evil, menacing Bad Guys for the Good Guys to go gleefully (or irritatingly self-sacrificingly) Over The River and Through The Woods to kill in a climactic final battle of Light Versus Dark gets really damn tedious after you read it a few times. At least it did for me. So it's nice to not see this happen so often, and in those cases where it's getting that way, it's nice to see the hero of the book (in the case of the Vladiad) complaining about it with me. Well, if you consider Vlad the hero of the Vladiad. I get the feeling sometimes that Loiosh is really the hero. -Adam From greyw01f at hotmail.com Tue Aug 19 14:40:49 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 21:40:49 +0000 Subject: Dragaeran Age Message-ID: Evolutionarily speaking, the idea of a 30 year old baby is simply ridiculous. Anyone with a child knows that for the most part, infants are basically leeches, parasites that are entirely dependent on the parents for support. Thankfully this doesn't last long, because someone who is almost entirely vulnerable unless a parent is around is simply not likely to survive very long. That's why babies grow so damn quick when they're really young, and then the aging process starts to slow... But to think--if a child cannot walk, communicate, etc, then the act of parenting becomes not only a curse but an extremely improbable one. What baby would survive like that for 30 years? There must be *some* evolutionary method of keeping the child safe for such a duration. Jon _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 19 14:40:35 2003 From: Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net (Daemian Spayde) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 14:40:35 -0700 Subject: Vlad Actors References: Message-ID: <00c201c3669a$87c5f4c0$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> I couldn't agree more to Johnny Depp. The man is amazing. And yes, he would HAVE to lose the Captain Sparrow thing, but after reading several interviews on the topic, Johnny Depp basically said "that was THAT character, and what he was. Any other character I play would be THAT character, and not Jack Sparrow." ======== "Insert witty Quote here" Daemian Spayde, Vlad Clone #2,346,012 a.k.a. Katt Jean IFGS SoCal President socal.ifgs.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Johne Cook" To: ; Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 1:58 PM Subject: Re: Vlad Actors > I can see that. I think of Vlad as an edgy, brilliant guy, and one of the > first actors to come to mind presently to fit that description is Johnny > Depp. He's introspective enough and yet can be baddass enough. He also > has that "hidden depths" thing going for him, and could pull off the kind of > "adventure angst" feel that enclouds (heh) Vlad. > > One caveat - he'd have to lose the effiminate flair of his Capt. Jack > Sparrow character - I don't get that vibe from Vlad at *all*. > > johne (phy) cook > wisconsin, usa > > personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com > aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ > stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ > > >From: Ryan Grove > > >If we could go back in time to about 1990 or so, then I can easily see > >Vlad being played by Timothy Dalton. He's got the build, the mustache, > >the skill with rapiers, and the general air of stupendous badassery. > >Sadly, he's too old now. > > > >-- > >Ryan Grove > >ryan at wonko.com > >http://wonko.com/ > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From bio_phy at hotmail.com Tue Aug 19 14:46:24 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:46:24 -0500 Subject: Vlad Actors Message-ID: Watching him go from Edward Scissorhands to Ed Wood convinced me that he has range (and for whatever reason, I always envisioned Vlad as being more like Johnny Depp in his build than, say, George Clooney). johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ >I couldn't agree more to Johnny Depp. The man is amazing. And yes, he would >HAVE to lose the Captain Sparrow thing, but after reading several >interviews >on the topic, Johnny Depp basically said "that was THAT character, and what >he was. Any other character I play would be THAT character, and not Jack >Sparrow." > >======== >"Insert witty Quote here" >Daemian Spayde, Vlad Clone #2,346,012 >a.k.a. Katt Jean >IFGS SoCal President >socal.ifgs.org _________________________________________________________________ Get MSN 8 and help protect your children with advanced parental controls. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental From Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 19 14:59:21 2003 From: Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net (Daemian Spayde) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 14:59:21 -0700 Subject: Vlad Actors References: Message-ID: <001301c3669d$26f820c0$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> Then again... Fabio did pose as Morrolan...so who knows... ======== "Insert witty Quote here" Daemian Spayde, Vlad Clone #2,346,012 a.k.a. Katt Jean IFGS SoCal President socal.ifgs.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Johne Cook" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 2:46 PM Subject: Re: Vlad Actors > Watching him go from Edward Scissorhands to Ed Wood convinced me that he has > range (and for whatever reason, I always envisioned Vlad as being more like > Johnny Depp in his build than, say, George Clooney). > > johne (phy) cook > wisconsin, usa > > personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com > aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ > stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ > > >I couldn't agree more to Johnny Depp. The man is amazing. And yes, he would > >HAVE to lose the Captain Sparrow thing, but after reading several > >interviews > >on the topic, Johnny Depp basically said "that was THAT character, and what > >he was. Any other character I play would be THAT character, and not Jack > >Sparrow." > > > >======== > >"Insert witty Quote here" > >Daemian Spayde, Vlad Clone #2,346,012 > >a.k.a. Katt Jean > >IFGS SoCal President > >socal.ifgs.org > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get MSN 8 and help protect your children with advanced parental > controls. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Tue Aug 19 15:03:06 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 18:03:06 -0400 Subject: Vlad Actors In-Reply-To: <001301c3669d$26f820c0$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> References: <001301c3669d$26f820c0$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> Message-ID: <3F429E9A.6040907@earthlink.net> Daemian Spayde wrote: >Then again... > >Fabio did pose as Morrolan...so who knows... > > Does this mean that Piro will be played by Lou Diamond Phillips? Jose -- Jose Marquez \ Cthulhu 2004 jhereg69 at earthlink.net \ Why vote for http://home.earthlink.net/~jhereg69 \ the lesser evil? From bio_phy at hotmail.com Tue Aug 19 15:10:24 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:10:24 -0500 Subject: Vlad Actors Message-ID: Hm, Morrolan. Perhaps Tommy Lee Jones when he was younger, or even a young Christopher Walken. But now? I'm thinking somebody razor sharp, brooding, brilliant but prickly. Ah, I have just the man - Hugo Weaving (aka Agent Smith from The Matrix, aka Elrond from LOTR: http://www.imdb.com/Name?Weaving,%20Hugo Yes, he has the look, the force of personality to pull if off. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ >From: "Daemian Spayde" >To: >Subject: Re: Vlad Actors >Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 14:59:21 -0700 > >Then again... > >Fabio did pose as Morrolan...so who knows... > >======== >"Insert witty Quote here" >Daemian Spayde, Vlad Clone #2,346,012 >a.k.a. Katt Jean >IFGS SoCal President >socal.ifgs.org _________________________________________________________________ Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Aug 19 15:10:08 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 15:10:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vlad Actors Message-ID: <200308192210.h7JMA1I14105@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Ryan GroveSrote: > Johne Cook wrote: > > That begs an interesting question (if I may veer into tangent): > > > > Who would you suggest to play the major characters of the Vlad novels? > > If we could go back in time to about 1990 or so, then I can easily see > Vlad being played by Timothy Dalton. He's got the build, the mustache, > the skill with rapiers, and the general air of stupendous badassery. > Sadly, he's too old now. Steve has said before that he's pictured Bruce Willis; however I feel Bruce is looking a bit older than Vlad is supposed to be. Of course, I would happily audition for the role. However, I agree that, unless Steve had absolute final-say in ... oh, most every aspect of filming with the possible exception of who got to be First Grip (Yes, Steve decides who does the catering!), I would not want to see his work filmed. They'd never get it right. :0 Chris From bio_phy at hotmail.com Tue Aug 19 15:13:30 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:13:30 -0500 Subject: Vlad Actors Message-ID: >From: Jose Marquez >To: Dragaera >Subject: Re: Vlad Actors >Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 18:03:06 -0400 > > >Daemian Spayde wrote: > >>Then again... >> >>Fabio did pose as Morrolan...so who knows... >> >> > >Does this mean that Piro will be played by Lou Diamond Phillips? > >Jose > >-- >Jose Marquez \ Cthulhu 2004 >jhereg69 at earthlink.net \ Why vote for >http://home.earthlink.net/~jhereg69 \ the lesser evil? I'm having trouble placing Khaavren as an actor (although I think I can see Angelica Huston as Sethra - she can go old and cold or young and vibrant, and I see that character as emcompassing both in various, uh, incarnations). johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ _________________________________________________________________ Get MSN 8 and help protect your children with advanced parental controls. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental From valerie at drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 15:15:06 2003 From: valerie at drizzle.com (valerie at drizzle.com) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 15:15:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vlad Actors In-Reply-To: <00c201c3669a$87c5f4c0$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> References: <00c201c3669a$87c5f4c0$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> Message-ID: <50143.206.124.138.14.1061331306.squirrel@drizzlemail.drizzle.com> > I couldn't agree more to Johnny Depp. i guess i just never pictured vlad as *that* good looking. i picture him as someone who can blend into a crowd, but once you really looked at him or spoke with him, you were hooked. mr. depp is an excellent actor, but he turns heads. -v From usagigoya at hotmail.com Tue Aug 19 15:18:16 2003 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:18:16 +0000 Subject: Morrolan's trip to the paths of the Dead (was Re: Great Weapons) Message-ID: It was an important mission, for whatever reason, and he brought Blackwand along to provide as much guarrantee of success for Vlad to complete the mission as he possibly could. >From: "Rick Castello" >Reply-To: rick at 404.978.org >To: >Subject: Re: Great Weapons >Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:10:07 -0400 (EDT) > >Philip Hart said: > > > On the subject, I would like to once again assert that Morrolan's taking > > Blackwand into the Paths, when he fully expects to be staying, is an > > annoying flaw in _Taltos_, which if anyone can explain away I'd be > > grateful. > > Because Blackwand is his familiar, and though he *expected* to be > staying, he may not have entirely given up all hope of avoiding it. > > Vlad's familiar came along too... > > -Rick > > _________________________________________________________________ Help protect your PC: Get a free online virus scan at McAfee.com. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From bio_phy at hotmail.com Tue Aug 19 15:19:46 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:19:46 -0500 Subject: Vlad Actors Message-ID: >i guess i just never pictured vlad as *that* good looking. i picture him >as someone who can blend into a crowd, but once you really looked at him >or spoke with him, you were hooked. mr. depp is an excellent actor, but >he turns heads. > >-v Well, how about James Caviezel? He was brilliant as Edmund Dontes in _The Count of Monte Cristo_, is brooding, knows how to handle a sword, and can wear a mustache. He's a bit on the tall side for what I picture for Vlad, but he could pull off the imperious "Shut up, Loiosh" like nobody's business. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Aug 19 15:23:05 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 15:23:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vlad Actors Message-ID: <200308192222.h7JMMwI16919@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Ah, I have just the man - Hugo Weaving (aka Agent Smith from The Matrix, aka > Ah, I have just the man - Hugo Weaving (aka Agent Smith from The Matrix, aka > Elrond from LOTR: > http://www.imdb.com/Name?Weaving,%20Hugo Hmm... Interesting choice. I'd have to think about it. Then again, Johnny Depp can do no wrong in my opinion, so that's a good choice. And Vigo Mortensen is another choice I'd have to think about (anyone seen Prophecy where he plays Lucifer?:). Perhaps more interestingly, I'm curious as to who could play the Enchantress.... :) Chris "So farewell hope, and with hope, farewell fear, Farewell remorse! All good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my Good" - John Milton - 'Paradise Lost' From usagigoya at hotmail.com Tue Aug 19 15:26:28 2003 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:26:28 +0000 Subject: Issola spoiler Message-ID: Must be one of those web viruses going around... I had the same thought yesterday (Monday) concerning Keiron / Devera when reading someone's comment on the dragon in Issola being Keiron... >From: "Rachel L. Ruhlen" >To: "Dragaera Mailing List" >Subject: Issola spoiler >Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:18:12 -0500 > >Regarding the conversation about whether the dragon at the end of _Issola_ >was Devera (as I had assumed, especially since she doesn't make an >appearance in that book otherwise) or Kieron: Maybe you're both right and >Keiron was/is/will be reincarnated as Devera! Is it possible to be >reincarnated as your own daughter? Try drawing that family tree. Family >web. >Family twisty thing. > >Rachel _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup From valerie at drizzle.com Tue Aug 19 15:34:03 2003 From: valerie at drizzle.com (valerie at drizzle.com) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 15:34:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vlad Actors In-Reply-To: <200308192222.h7JMMwI16919@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200308192222.h7JMMwI16919@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <50127.206.124.138.14.1061332443.squirrel@drizzlemail.drizzle.com> "mmmmmmmmmmmmmm....vigo" (said exactly like homer simpson's "mmmmmmm...donuts"). tilda swinton would make an excellent dragaeran. > > Then again, Johnny Depp can do no wrong in my opinion, so that's > a good choice. And Vigo Mortensen is another choice I'd > have to think about (anyone seen Prophecy where he plays Lucifer?:). > > Perhaps more interestingly, I'm curious as to who could play > the Enchantress.... > > :) > Chris > From kpadgett1 at cox.net Tue Aug 19 15:50:32 2003 From: kpadgett1 at cox.net (Ken Padgett) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 18:50:32 -0400 Subject: More Questions About Great Weapons Message-ID: <20030819225034.CEYB419.lakemtao04.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net> Since the gods tried so hard to eliminate Godslayer before it could fully manifest, how did Loraan come by Spellbreaker in the first place? He seems to be the collector for every magical oddment on Dragaera. Spellbreaker, the staff with Aliera, etc. Ken Padgett From mam at theworld.com Tue Aug 19 14:28:29 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:28:29 -0400 Subject: Ugly words. In-Reply-To: <200308191830.h7JIUOTV057355@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Aug 2003, Frank Mayhar wrote: #"Fungible." # #Ugly, yet almost entirely useless. Of course it's used quite commonly #among software folks, particularly those with advanced degrees, who should #really know better. Roughly, 'interchangeable'. The word is significant and useful in economics. Dollars are fungible: it doesn't matter where they came from or what their serial numbers are, you can use them all the same way. Oil is (may be) largely fungible. Baseball players are not fungible, even if they hit fungoes for practice. Mushrooms are definitely not fungible. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Aug 19 16:32:02 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 18:32:02 -0500 Subject: Vlad Actors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030819233202.GE10717@infodancer.org> On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 02:47:05PM -0500, Johne Cook wrote: > >On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 07:13:58PM +0000, Jon Carey > >wrote: > >> Movie version? Of the mailing list? > >It was a joke. > That begs an interesting question (if I may veer into tangent): > Who would you suggest to play the major characters of the Vlad novels? I'd like to publically beg forgiveness and offer a general invitation to my upcoming seppuku[1]. I offer no defense; there can be none. I ask only their you spare my children, for they had no part in it. Farewell, cruel world. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp [1]: Ritual suicide, typically committed after a great dishonor. From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Aug 19 16:33:25 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 18:33:25 -0500 Subject: Movie version? In-Reply-To: References: <20030819193310.GC21158@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20030819233325.GF10717@infodancer.org> On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 02:48:25PM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Matthew Hunter writes: > > On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 07:13:58PM +0000, Jon Carey wrote: > > > *shudders at the 3 hour "Lord of the Rings" that he sat through once...* > > That better be a joyful shudder, son. > Nope, a shudder of pure horror. Have you *seen* the Bakshi LotR film? > *shudder*. I was thinking of the Peter Jackson versions, of course. The bakshi version is the cartoon, yes? That does rate a shudder. Right before running away. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Aug 19 16:35:39 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pretty or Cool Words? (Was: Re: Ugly words.) Message-ID: <200308192335.h7JNZWI29134@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> So, all this talk of ugly words got me wondering.... What unusual words do people really like? Currently, I'm fond of callipygian and cacopygian, because they sound a little off and their meaning can fit in so nicely with sly compliments or insults....:) Thanks to the work of a certain author who posts here (ahem), I've started using perspicacious in everyday speech. That's just a fun one. Anyone else have any cool or interesting words they like? Chris (Who enjoys learning unusual words...:) "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, son." - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm From Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 19 16:59:07 2003 From: Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net (Daemian Spayde) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:59:07 -0700 Subject: Vlad Actors References: <001301c3669d$26f820c0$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> <3F429E9A.6040907@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <008001c366ad$e08fc640$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> So...don't lynch me... but another option I thought of for Vlad, Bruce Campbell? /hides ======== "Insert witty Quote here" Daemian Spayde, Vlad Clone #2,346,012 a.k.a. Katt Jean IFGS SoCal President socal.ifgs.org From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Aug 19 17:02:17 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:02:17 -0500 Subject: [SPOILERS] Dumas parallels and a wild theory In-Reply-To: <20030819151344.A12526@gw.dd-b.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030819112708.00ac1758@camail2.harvard.edu> <200308191754.NAA12987888@shell.TheWorld.com> <20030819194233.GE21158@infodancer.org> <20030819151344.A12526@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <20030820000217.GG10717@infodancer.org> On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 03:13:44PM -0500, pddb at demesne.com wrote: > On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 02:49:35PM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > Matthew Hunter writes: > > > I think this is a fair criticism. We haven't really had any > > > truly menacing characters in Dragaera. Personally, I would like > > > some, though it might substantially change the tone of the > > > series. Maybe Vlad needs a recurring antagonist? The Jenoine > > > might be slated to fill this role, but I don't think they would > > > do it necessarily well. > > I dunno. I think Sethra, and Aliera, and Morollan, and Vlad are > > *really* menacing character. *I* sure wouldn't want to argue with > > them about anything too important. > Yeah, that was my reaction too. > I wonder if this is really a question of tone. If you just listed > the various characteristics and actions of those people and other > characters in a straightforward fashion, they'd seem pretty menacing, > but Vlad doesn't like to seem impressed and Paarfi, well, let us say > perhaps that Vlad is given to understatement and Paarfi to overstatement, > which may cast an unmenacing light on these people. Don't get me wrong, I find Morrolan, Aliera, Sethra, and Vlad all fairly menacing as characters. They just don't get *menaced* much, and between Vlad and Paarfi, the tone of the books is much less menacing than the characters perhaps warrant. This can be a good thing, in that it is unexpected and fresh to have to be menaced between the lines, but there is such a thing as too much of a good thing. ;) In response to the person who indicated that endless battles of light against dark get boring: sure. But I'm not asking for that. I'm just sort of hankering to see Vlad, Morrolan, Sethra, and Aliera in full menace-mood from some terrified Teckla's perspective. Sort of like, what do you do when you meet Sethra in a dark alley and she says she wants to share a drink with you... and doesn't drink wine? The "Tecklavision" in Athyra worked really well for this. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From bio_phy at hotmail.com Tue Aug 19 17:02:59 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:02:59 -0500 Subject: Vlad Actors Message-ID: >From: "Daemian Spayde" >To: "Dragaera" >Subject: Re: Vlad Actors >Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:59:07 -0700 > >So...don't lynch me... > >but another option I thought of for Vlad, > > >Bruce Campbell? > >/hides As much as I adore Bruce Campbell, I wouldn't be able to take him seriously in the role of Vlad. Now Kragar would be another story... johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ _________________________________________________________________ Get MSN 8 and help protect your children with advanced parental controls. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental From pulmon at comcast.net Tue Aug 19 17:24:32 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 20:24:32 -0400 Subject: House Animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Must one be a trained linguist or merely a cunning one? On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 01:41 AM, David Silberstein wrote: > > [ Ahem! Editing of the To: & Cc:, please... Thanks. ] > > On Mon, 18 Aug 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > >>> >>> 'strewth, mate! >>> >>> http://www.moxon.net/australia/drop_bears.html >>> >>> And 'ere Oi thawt Steve-o were an 'ungarian, nowt an Ozzie! >> >> >> Latin, gibberish, ... - I miss the good old days when this list used >> English. >> > > Do not attempt to use any Australian slang, unless you are a > trained linguist and good in a fistfight. > > -- Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy, entry on Australia > http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A53650 > From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Aug 19 17:28:33 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 20:28:33 -0400 Subject: Ambiguate and other created words (off-topic) Message-ID: <1AB93A1C.0220C30D.00048EA6@aol.com> "Jeremy Tassoff" writes: > The Washington Post's Style Invitational once again asked > readers to take any word from the dictionary, alter it by > adding or subtracting one letter, and supply a new > definition. Here are the 2003 winners: > > 3) Bozone (n.): The substance surrounding stupid people > that stops bright ideas from penetrating. The bozone layer, > unfortunately, shows little sign of breaking down in the > near future. Should have been disqualified. Gary Larson used it in a Far Side cartoon years ago. > 12) Decafalon (n.): Isn't that changing three letters rather than one? --KG From richard at pikachu.harvard.edu Tue Aug 19 17:33:26 2003 From: richard at pikachu.harvard.edu (Richard Congdon) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 20:33:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Ambiguate and other created words (off-topic) In-Reply-To: <1AB93A1C.0220C30D.00048EA6@aol.com> from "Gaertk@aol.com" at Aug 19, 2003 08:28:33 PM Message-ID: <200308200033.h7K0XQB02285@pikachu.harvard.edu> > > > 12) Decafalon (n.): > > Isn't that changing three letters rather than one? > Well, if you stretch it a bit, you could think of the f as being a phi that replaced a theta. It is a greek word, after all. :) -- Richard Congdon Harvard School of Public Health 617/432-0995 From pulmon at comcast.net Tue Aug 19 17:45:31 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 20:45:31 -0400 Subject: House Animals In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030819012347.030c7940@localhost> Message-ID: <99D2FD52-D2A7-11D7-9039-0003938F1608@comcast.net> Although, of course, those who "wrote" the bible were only channeling a higher source. By analogy... On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 04:24 AM, Steven Brust wrote: > At 08:05 PM 8/18/2003 -0700, Hans Schweitzer wrote: >> >http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/treats/dzurlordintro.html >> >> >Check it out. I'm rather surprised at how my guesses went. Another >> note, >> >for gloating factor, is that I figured a bear had to be in there >> somewhere. >> >Only one I had no clue with was the Iorich and the Jhegaala, and >> hey, that >> >ain't bad. >> >> >> >> That introduction was informative. > > Not, however, canonical, as far as I know. > > > > From pulmon at comcast.net Tue Aug 19 17:52:49 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 20:52:49 -0400 Subject: Ambiguify In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9F09A004-D2A8-11D7-9589-0003938F1608@comcast.net> How is this pronounced? To rhyme with "liquefy" as a 4-syllable word, or with a long "u" in a pentasyllable? Ken On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 04:27 AM, lazarus wrote: >> From goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU Tue Aug 19 17:56:06 2003 From: goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (David Goldfarb) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:56:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ambiguify Message-ID: <200308200056.h7K0u6D24954@famine.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> >How is this pronounced? To rhyme with "liquefy" as a 4-syllable word, >or with a long "u" in a pentasyllable? I vote for the latter: "am-bi-GU-i-fy". (Although "ambiguate" is "am-BIG-u-ate".) -- David Goldfarb <*>|"If I haven't killed you yet, I'll take care of goldfarb at ocf.berkeley.edu | it right away." goldfarb at csua.berkeley.edu | -- S. P. Somtow From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Aug 19 18:14:41 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 21:14:41 -0400 Subject: Vlad Actors Message-ID: <4B76F764.29590AB5.00048EA6@aol.com> "Daemian Spayde" writes: > So...don't lynch me... > > but another option I thought of for Vlad, > > Bruce Campbell? No. We need him to play Adron. --KG From bertowud at cox.net Tue Aug 19 18:26:15 2003 From: bertowud at cox.net (Robert Wood) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 21:26:15 -0400 Subject: Vlad Actors Message-ID: <20030820012613.ELPD11854.lakemtao02.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net> > > From: Gaertk at aol.com > Date: 2003/08/19 Tue PM 09:14:41 EDT > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Vlad Actors > > "Daemian Spayde" writes: > > > So...don't lynch me... > > > > but another option I thought of for Vlad, > > > > Bruce Campbell? > > No. We need him to play Adron. Or Loiosh From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Tue Aug 19 18:28:48 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 18:28:48 -0700 Subject: Vlad Actors In-Reply-To: <4B76F764.29590AB5.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <4B76F764.29590AB5.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 21:14:41 -0400, you wrote: >"Daemian Spayde" writes: > >> So...don't lynch me... >> >> but another option I thought of for Vlad, >> >> Bruce Campbell? > >No. We need him to play Adron. > > >--KG No, Ed Harris has to be Adron. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Tue Aug 19 18:31:02 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 18:31:02 -0700 Subject: [SPOILERS] Dumas parallels and a wild theory In-Reply-To: <111.26f3b3d7.2c73deae@aol.com> References: <111.26f3b3d7.2c73deae@aol.com> Message-ID: <0qj5kvor6ejble1sq04gb5lkpa338ot2eb@4ax.com> On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:12:30 EDT, you wrote: > >>Maybe Vlad needs a recurring antagonist? The Jenoine >>> might be slated to fill this role, but I don't think they would >>> do it necessarily well. > >>I dunno. I think Sethra, and Aliera, and Morollan, and Vlad are >>*really* menacing character. *I* sure wouldn't want to argue with >>them about anything too important. >>-- >>David Dyer-Bennet, , > >I believe that the Jhereg council could fit the bill at this point. Let's >see... they turn up looking for Vlad in the last three books.... and probably the >next book, or until Vlad settles that score. > > >John D. Barbato, OD So who sees Vlad having to take a seat on the Council to settle the score? -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Aug 19 19:41:20 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 21:41:20 -0500 Subject: [SPOILERS] Dumas parallels and a wild theory In-Reply-To: <0qj5kvor6ejble1sq04gb5lkpa338ot2eb@4ax.com> References: <111.26f3b3d7.2c73deae@aol.com> <0qj5kvor6ejble1sq04gb5lkpa338ot2eb@4ax.com> Message-ID: <20030820024120.GA18037@infodancer.org> On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 06:31:02PM -0700, lazarus wrote: > On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:12:30 EDT, you wrote: > > >>Maybe Vlad needs a recurring antagonist? The Jenoine > >>> might be slated to fill this role, but I don't think they would > >>> do it necessarily well. > >>I dunno. I think Sethra, and Aliera, and Morollan, and Vlad are > >>*really* menacing character. *I* sure wouldn't want to argue with > >>them about anything too important. > >I believe that the Jhereg council could fit the bill at this point. Let's > >see... they turn up looking for Vlad in the last three books.... and probably the > >next book, or until Vlad settles that score. > So who sees Vlad having to take a seat on the Council to settle the > score? I don't think that score will be settled until Vlad takes THE seat on the council[1] -- that is, the only one left after he took all the others. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp [1]: "Hi. I'm the new Jhereg Council. My two pet Jhereg always vote my way. You can work for me, or you can walk out the door right now. But if you say you'll work for me, and then betray me..." From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Tue Aug 19 19:44:17 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:44:17 -0700 Subject: [SPOILERS] Dumas parallels and a wild theory In-Reply-To: <20030820024120.GA18037@infodancer.org> References: <111.26f3b3d7.2c73deae@aol.com> <0qj5kvor6ejble1sq04gb5lkpa338ot2eb@4ax.com> <20030820024120.GA18037@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 21:41:20 -0500, you wrote: >On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 06:31:02PM -0700, lazarus wrote: >> On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:12:30 EDT, you wrote: >> > >>Maybe Vlad needs a recurring antagonist? The Jenoine >> >>> might be slated to fill this role, but I don't think they would >> >>> do it necessarily well. >> >>I dunno. I think Sethra, and Aliera, and Morollan, and Vlad are >> >>*really* menacing character. *I* sure wouldn't want to argue with >> >>them about anything too important. >> >I believe that the Jhereg council could fit the bill at this point. Let's >> >see... they turn up looking for Vlad in the last three books.... and probably the >> >next book, or until Vlad settles that score. >> So who sees Vlad having to take a seat on the Council to settle the >> score? > >I don't think that score will be settled until Vlad takes THE >seat on the council[1] -- that is, the only one left after he >took all the others. That could be a great couple/three books, Vlad hunting down all the Council members. Would quite likely be the perfect way to end the series. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Tue Aug 19 20:00:10 2003 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 20:00:10 -0700 Subject: [SPOILERS] Dumas parallels and a wild theory Message-ID: > >I don't think that score will be settled until Vlad takes THE >seat on the council[1] -- that is, the only one left after he >took all the others. > >[1]: "Hi. I'm the new Jhereg Council. My two pet Jhereg >always vote my way. You can work for me, or you can walk out >the door right now. But if you say you'll work for me, and then >betray me..." There went Krager . . . . Where???? _________________________________________________________________ Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Tue Aug 19 19:54:13 2003 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:54:13 -0700 Subject: Pretty or Cool Words? (Was: Re: Ugly words.) Message-ID: > >So, all this talk of ugly words got me wondering.... > >What unusual words do people really like? > >Currently, I'm fond of callipygian and cacopygian, because >they sound a little off and their meaning can fit in >so nicely with sly compliments or insults....:) >Thanks to the work of a certain author who posts here (ahem), >I've started using perspicacious in everyday speech. That's >just a fun one. > >Anyone else have any cool or interesting words they like? This circumstance misliketh me. James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN _________________________________________________________________ Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From pulmon at comcast.net Tue Aug 19 20:11:28 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:11:28 -0400 Subject: Vlad Actors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: How about Morrolan Brando? (only joking!) On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 03:47 PM, Johne Cook wrote: >> On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 07:13:58PM +0000, Jon Carey >> wrote: >> > Movie version? Of the mailing list? >> >> It was a joke. > > That begs an interesting question (if I may veer into tangent): > > Who would you suggest to play the major characters of the Vlad novels? > > johne (phy) cook > wisconsin, usa > > personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com > aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ > stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get MSN 8 and help protect your children with advanced parental > controls. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental > From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Tue Aug 19 20:17:24 2003 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:17:24 -0500 Subject: Movie version? References: <20030819193310.GC21158@infodancer.org> <20030819233325.GF10717@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <3F42E844.9090600@comcast.net> No, the Bakshi version of Fellowship (he never got any further) was live-action plus animation. It was vile. Purely *vile*. Late '70s, early '80s??? Mia From pulmon at comcast.net Tue Aug 19 20:17:19 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:17:19 -0400 Subject: Vlad Actors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Linda Hunt for Sethra. Lou Gossett Jr. for Aerich. On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 06:13 PM, Johne Cook wrote: >> From: Jose Marquez >> To: Dragaera >> Subject: Re: Vlad Actors >> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 18:03:06 -0400 >> >> >> Daemian Spayde wrote: >> >>> Then again... >>> >>> Fabio did pose as Morrolan...so who knows... >>> >>> >> >> Does this mean that Piro will be played by Lou Diamond Phillips? >> >> Jose >> >> -- >> Jose Marquez \ Cthulhu 2004 >> jhereg69 at earthlink.net \ Why vote for >> http://home.earthlink.net/~jhereg69 \ the lesser evil? > > I'm having trouble placing Khaavren as an actor (although I think I > can see Angelica Huston as Sethra - she can go old and cold or young > and vibrant, and I see that character as emcompassing both in various, > uh, incarnations). > > johne (phy) cook > wisconsin, usa > > personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com > aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ > stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get MSN 8 and help protect your children with advanced parental > controls. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental > From pulmon at comcast.net Tue Aug 19 20:29:12 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:29:12 -0400 Subject: Pretty or Cool Words? (Was: Re: Ugly words.) In-Reply-To: <200308192335.h7JNZWI29134@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <77CF38B4-D2BE-11D7-924C-0003938F1608@comcast.net> floccinaucinihilipilification (with a tip of the hat to RAH...my son and I look for new situations to use this one) heuristic--I especially loved it when this one showed up on "wait, wait, don't tell me!" Ken On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 07:35 PM, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > So, all this talk of ugly words got me wondering.... > > What unusual words do people really like? > > Currently, I'm fond of callipygian and cacopygian, because > they sound a little off and their meaning can fit in > so nicely with sly compliments or insults....:) > > Thanks to the work of a certain author who posts here (ahem), > I've started using perspicacious in everyday speech. That's > just a fun one. > > Anyone else have any cool or interesting words they like? > > Chris (Who enjoys learning unusual words...:) > > "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and > everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes > tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, > son." > - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm > > From hans117 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 21:40:27 2003 From: hans117 at yahoo.com (Hans Schweitzer) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 21:40:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vlad Actors In-Reply-To: <200308192210.h7JMA1I14105@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <20030820044027.83073.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> *snip >I would not want to see his work filmed. You can't be a true fan of Brust and not want his works filmed. He deserves to get rich somehow. I probably wouldn't like how it turned out, but there would have to be some great scenes and people that haven't read the series would love it. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software From AkodoBob at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 19 21:47:02 2003 From: AkodoBob at sbcglobal.net (Akodo Bob) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 21:47:02 -0700 Subject: Vlad Actors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5750C118-D2C9-11D7-82DD-0005027712ED@sbcglobal.net> While on one hand I'm loath to return to one of those "Who'd play who" e-mail discussions, and without yet seeing Pirates, I think I'd have to veto Depp as a choice for Vlad. While Jonny Depp is actually one of my favorite actors (he was excellent in "The Ninth Gate") I think his normal style of acting is far too passive to be an effect Vlad, especially in his recent movies. I mean he always does cool things, but he doesn't exude that air of the competent badass that I've always associated with Vlad. Instead he always seems to play that unassuming character, good at what he does, but then thrust into something far beyond his means and far over his head. I just can't see Depp as playing a non-wuss character. I however, do think that guy from the new Count of Mont? Crisco would be a decent choice. Oh, and Bruce Campell needs to be in the movie. Akodo Bob -who's expecting to be pelted with insane amounts of "Depp can do no wrong" e-mails. ps. forgive me this was meant to be posted about 8 hours ago, but I'm lazy. On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 01:58 PM, Johne Cook wrote: > I can see that. I think of Vlad as an edgy, brilliant guy, and one of > the first actors to come to mind presently to fit that description is > Johnny Depp. He's introspective enough and yet can be baddass > enough. He also has that "hidden depths" thing going for him, and > could pull off the kind of "adventure angst" feel that enclouds (heh) > Vlad. > > One caveat - he'd have to lose the effiminate flair of his Capt. Jack > Sparrow character - I don't get that vibe from Vlad at *all*. > > johne (phy) cook > wisconsin, usa > > personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com > aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ > stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ > >> From: Ryan Grove > >> If we could go back in time to about 1990 or so, then I can easily see >> Vlad being played by Timothy Dalton. He's got the build, the mustache, >> the skill with rapiers, and the general air of stupendous badassery. >> Sadly, he's too old now. >> >> -- >> Ryan Grove >> ryan at wonko.com >> http://wonko.com/ > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Aug 19 22:50:19 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 20 Aug 2003 00:50:19 -0500 Subject: Vlad Actors In-Reply-To: <20030820044027.83073.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030820044027.83073.qmail@web13806.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hans Schweitzer writes: > *snip > >I would not want to see his work filmed. > You can't be a true fan of Brust and not want his works filmed. > He deserves to get rich somehow. I probably wouldn't like how it > turned out, but there would have to be some great scenes and > people that haven't read the series would love it. Can I hope wins the lottery instead? Less emotional trauma all around. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera mailing lists: From Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 19 23:16:27 2003 From: Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net (Daemian Spayde) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:16:27 -0700 Subject: Vlad Actors References: <20030820012613.ELPD11854.lakemtao02.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <008501c366e2$96d52920$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> Heh, I was discussing this thread with my g/f (another Brust fan) and we both agreed that Bruce Campbell would be an excellent Loiosh! ======== "Insert witty Quote here" Daemian Spayde, Vlad Clone #2,346,012 a.k.a. Katt Jean IFGS SoCal President socal.ifgs.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Wood" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 6:26 PM Subject: Re: Re: Vlad Actors > > > > > From: Gaertk at aol.com > > Date: 2003/08/19 Tue PM 09:14:41 EDT > > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > > Subject: Re: Vlad Actors > > > > "Daemian Spayde" writes: > > > > > So...don't lynch me... > > > > > > but another option I thought of for Vlad, > > > > > > Bruce Campbell? > > > > No. We need him to play Adron. > > Or Loiosh From Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 19 23:18:33 2003 From: Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net (Daemian Spayde) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:18:33 -0700 Subject: [SPOILERS] Council concepts References: <111.26f3b3d7.2c73deae@aol.com> <0qj5kvor6ejble1sq04gb5lkpa338ot2eb@4ax.com> <20030820024120.GA18037@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <009001c366e2$e1e79b00$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> I would actually have to disagree with you Laz. We've seen Vlad's progression _away_ from his old life in several of the more recent (time line) books. I believe that Vlad's days of being Jhereg are long gone. I would have to describe him more accurately as the 'Anti-Hero'. ======== "Insert witty Quote here" Daemian Spayde, Vlad Clone #2,346,012 a.k.a. Katt Jean IFGS SoCal President socal.ifgs.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "lazarus" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 7:44 PM Subject: Re: [SPOILERS] Dumas parallels and a wild theory On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 21:41:20 -0500, you wrote: > >I don't think that score will be settled until Vlad takes THE >seat on the council[1] -- that is, the only one left after he >took all the others. That could be a great couple/three books, Vlad hunting down all the Council members. Would quite likely be the perfect way to end the series. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 19 23:22:26 2003 From: Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net (Daemian Spayde) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:22:26 -0700 Subject: Vladdy Depp? References: <5750C118-D2C9-11D7-82DD-0005027712ED@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <009b01c366e3$7069d820$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> ----- Original Message ----- >From: "Akodo Bob" >Cc: >Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 9:47 PM >Subject: Re: Vlad Actors > >While on one hand I'm loath to return to one of those "Who'd play who" >e-mail discussions, and without yet seeing Pirates, I think I'd have to >veto Depp as a choice for Vlad. <> >Instead he (Johnny Depp) always seems to play that unassuming >character, good at what he does, but then thrust into something far >beyond his means and far over his head. Ummm, maybe I'm missing something, but didn't you just describe Vlad almsot perfectly? "Unassuming", "good at what he does" and "thrust into something far beyond his means and far over his head"...aren't these ALL things that are associated with our lovable ex-Jhereg? >Akodo Bob >-who's expecting to be pelted with insane amounts of "Depp can do no >wrong" e-mails. > >ps. forgive me this was meant to be posted about 8 hours ago, but I'm >lazy. BAH! How can we EVER forgive you?!?! It's not like any of the rest of us have _real_ lives. We just sit around and wait for YOU to post, but nooOOOooo. You left us hanging! (spoken with tongue FIRMLY in cheek). ======== "Insert witty Quote here" Daemian Spayde, Vlad Clone #2,346,012 a.k.a. Katt Jean IFGS SoCal President socal.ifgs.org From AkodoBob at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 20 00:13:23 2003 From: AkodoBob at sbcglobal.net (Akodo Bob) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 00:13:23 -0700 Subject: Vladdy Depp? In-Reply-To: <009b01c366e3$7069d820$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> Message-ID: >> > >> While on one hand I'm loath to return to one of those "Who'd play who" >> e-mail discussions, and without yet seeing Pirates, I think I'd have to >> veto Depp as a choice for Vlad. > > <> > >> Instead he (Johnny Depp) always seems to play that unassuming >> character, good at what he does, but then thrust into something far >> beyond his means and far over his head. > > Ummm, maybe I'm missing something, but didn't you just describe Vlad > almsot > perfectly? "Unassuming", "good at what he does" and "thrust into > something > far beyond his means and far over his head"...aren't these ALL things > that > are associated with our lovable ex-Jhereg? The problem is that Depp's characters always appear to stumble and falter in ways that Vlad never does. When Vlad is thrust into such a situation he takes it in stride and seems to always have an effective plan or slick last second trick in hand. Depp gets into trouble and generally gets his but kicked for a while, ala Ninth Gate. In addition while Depp is unassuming, I've never felt he's dangerous like the feeling I think Vlad exudes. I can't see Depp effectively blustering his way through the palace intimidating the Jhereg heir, or even just acting in Vlad's his normal manner. A movie that I think the adapters of this conceptual film should keep in mind is "Payback" with Mel Gibson. If you haven't seen it, it is a movie done in a very noir style with Mel Gibson as antihero thief out to recover 70,000 in cash that was stolen from him. I'd almost suggest Mel Gibson as Vlad based solely on his performance in that movie but think he's too old. AkodoBob -who's probably not doing anyone any favors by continuing this thread. From hans117 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 00:38:10 2003 From: hans117 at yahoo.com (Hans Schweitzer) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 00:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: D or A, there is no question (Issola Spoiler) (was Great Weapons) In-Reply-To: <009a01c3655d$296bcb40$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> Message-ID: <20030820073810.74453.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com> >Issola (paperback) pg. 230 >Sethra is speaking of the "person" in question: >"Not now," said Sethra. She frowned, and finally said, "Very well. Leave >_her_ alone, we'll adjust." >Key word there: HER >Daemian "Spayde" DuMonde You will all know that I am stubborn, but I guess you would figure that out eventually. I finally got time/energy/motivation to recheck this. The part you are quoting doesn't necessarily refer to the dragon. While Vlad is reacting to this comment he makes this statement. "Watching Sethra, I got the impression that she was in psychic contact with someone or other, maybe all the gods at once, so she could direct the battle. I don't know? From this I assume that when Sethra says "Very well. Leave her alone, we'll adjust." She is no longer referring to the dragon. It certainly would make more sense that that was her reply to a psychic conversation that then a response to Aliera. I thought the "her" was the necromancer because she appears a page later. It could be anyone though as it is separates from the discussion of the dragon. You could of course question why Sethra said it out loud, but that?s easily explained. She is alone a lot and people develop a habit of speaking thoughts out loud when alone. It might have been easier to say it out loud because she was linked with all of the gods at once. Or maybe she didn't say it at all but was broadcasting her brainwaves strongly and Vlad caught them so well he thought she was speaking. (Aliera catches Vlad's brainwaves in one of the books.) I've also checked the rest of the battle and the dragon is always referred to as it. That said, I will acknowledge that the dragon might be Devera and now that I think about it makes more since even if I don't like the theory as much. I hadn't even considered her because I immediately decided it was K. If I really wanted to I'm sure I could "find" Devera somewhere else because I'm good at putting things in literature that the author doesn't. Hans refuses to trade his theory in for a better one. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software From Raellew at aol.com Wed Aug 20 05:01:37 2003 From: Raellew at aol.com (Raellew at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 08:01:37 EDT Subject: LoCB Comments Message-ID: <159.234b2d22.2c74bd21@aol.com> A minor spoiler: Preface, p. 17: At this time, we have been introduced to two young ladies, one a Dzur named Ibronka and the other a Tiassa named Roaana. The presence of a Tiassa was a hint to the reader of romantic entanglements to come, although the author elegantly avoided any overt indications of such matters, preferring to leave them as a surprise for the reader. Oh, *excellent*. Self-praise, misdirection all the more effective because it confirms what most of us already thought [insert _Issola_ generalization quote], and a seeming spoiler for his own work, thus supporting Paarfi's assertion that recaps are a Bad Idea. Is the soldier with whom Clari shares a pomegranate in Chapter 60 Dortmond from _Dragon_, by chance? What is the difference between a soul mate and a familiar? If there isn't one, why does Morrolan tell Vlad he's never heard of a witch having two familiars? Vlad's egg-hunting trip might count as a journey, though it seemed awfully short, but why didn't he have to find his name? It isn't something peculiar to whatever Eastern culture Morrolan grew up in, because the Warlock Formerly Known as Laszlo, of Fenario, goes on the same quest. At least, I think Laszlo is Fenarian; a quick search didn't turn up a cite. Typo I haven't seen mentioned, p. 125, near the bottom: "whoever takes the outermost position much watch his footing" Should be "must". Favorite quotes: p. 190: "I am," she said, "the Enchantress of Dzur Mountain." "But, madam, how is it that being the Enchantress of Dzur Mountain gives you this knowledge?" "I read a great deal," said Sethra. p. 204: "They spoke of us." "Did they?" said Khaavren. "I am not startled. I ought to have noticed the back of my neck itching. My mother always said that if the back of your neck itches, someone is speaking ill of you." "Yes?" said Kytraan. "I had not heard this. What if the back of your neck, rather than itching, hurts?" "That means someone has stuck a knife into your neck." Rae From rick at 404.978.org Wed Aug 20 05:47:46 2003 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 08:47:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: D or A, there is no question (Issola Spoiler) (was Great Weapons) In-Reply-To: <20030820073810.74453.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com> References: <009a01c3655d$296bcb40$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> <20030820073810.74453.qmail@web13802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <57265.192.168.1.1.1061383666.squirrel@404.978.org> Hans Schweitzer said: >>Issola (paperback) pg. 230 > >>Sethra is speaking of the "person" in question: > >>"Not now," said Sethra. She frowned, and finally said, "Very well. >> Leave _her_ alone, we'll adjust." > >>Key word there: HER > >>Daemian "Spayde" DuMonde > > > You will all know that I am stubborn, but I guess you would figure that > out eventually. I finally got time/energy/motivation to recheck this. > The part you are quoting doesn't necessarily refer to the dragon. While > Vlad is reacting to this comment he makes this statement. "Watching > Sethra, I got the impression that she was in psychic contact with > someone or other, maybe all the gods at once, so she could direct the > battle. I don't know? From this I assume that when Sethra says "Very > well. Leave her alone, we'll adjust." She is no longer referring to the > dragon. It certainly would make more sense that that was her reply to a > psychic conversation that then a response to Aliera. I thought the > "her" was the necromancer because she appears a page later. It could be > anyone though as it is separates from the discussion of the dragon. > > You could of course question why Sethra said it out loud, but that?s > easily explained. She is alone a lot and people develop a habit of > speaking thoughts out loud when alone. It might have been easier to say > it out loud because she was linked with all of the gods at once. Or > maybe she didn't say it at all but was broadcasting her brainwaves > strongly and Vlad caught them so well he thought she was speaking. > (Aliera catches Vlad's brainwaves in one of the books.) > > I've also checked the rest of the battle and the dragon is always > referred to as it. > > That said, I will acknowledge that the dragon might be Devera and now > that I think about it makes more since even if I don't like the theory > as much. I hadn't even considered her because I immediately decided it > was K. If I really wanted to I'm sure I could "find" Devera somewhere > else because I'm good at putting things in literature that the author > doesn't. > > Hans refuses to trade his theory in for a better one. Next you'll be debating the meaning of the word *is*. Feh. Accept that the esteemed author intended it that way, and quit pushing your boulder up the hill. Tenacity is a good thing, but if you must elocute masturbatively, must we be witnesses? -Rick From lmbrassard at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 08:30:59 2003 From: lmbrassard at yahoo.com (Laurie Brassard) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 08:30:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [SPOILERS] Council concepts In-Reply-To: <009001c366e2$e1e79b00$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> Message-ID: <20030820153059.3301.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> --- Daemian Spayde wrote: > I would actually have to disagree with you Laz. > We've seen Vlad's > progression _away_ from his old life in several of > the more recent (time > line) books. I believe that Vlad's days of being > Jhereg are long gone. I > would have to describe him more accurately as the > 'Anti-Hero'. > My first reaction was to agree that Vlad is moving away from the Jhereg, but I really like the idea of him moving into more power within the Jhereg, as well. What if (just trying to untie some concepts I like) Vlad *changed* the Jhereg? That is, what if he did take over the Council in some way, but not by killing them all? Political assassination? Something different & cool that Steve comes up with... I don't know, but considering the (not so) small matter of his soul, it would make sense for him to create a whole new path for them to follow. And someone said (sorry for the vague attribution; I don't have the older posts here) Piro might be the Demon. I agree with later comments that it's unlikely, but he's certainly becoming a Jhereg, isn't he? Finally, in reference to a more recent post I deleted, I think I'm going to have to put "elocute masturbatively" on a bumper sticker. It makes so very little sense, but it does so in such an obscene way... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From feaelin at kemenel.org Wed Aug 20 08:42:51 2003 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Iain E. Davis) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 10:42:51 -0500 Subject: Dragaeran Age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003201c36731$b7a15d50$6501a8c0@Khaavren> > From: Jon Carey [mailto:greyw01f at hotmail.com] > Evolutionarily speaking, the idea of a 30 year old baby is simply > ridiculous. Anyone with a child knows that for the most > part, infants are > basically leeches, parasites that are entirely dependent on > the parents for > support. Thankfully this doesn't last long, because someone > who is almost > entirely vulnerable unless a parent is around is simply not likely to > survive very long. That's why babies grow so damn quick when > they're really > young, and then the aging process starts to slow... > > But to think--if a child cannot walk, communicate, etc, then > the act of > parenting becomes not only a curse but an extremely > improbable one. What > baby would survive like that for 30 years? There must be *some* > evolutionary method of keeping the child safe for such a duration. It's my belief that there has to be a rapid growth period. A period after which the child is mobile, able to do fairly basic tasks (minimum for survival, e.g. food placed in front of the child is taken by the child and eaten, etc.) but then hits a "slow" point in growth both physically and mentally. Also, it could be that new-born Dragaerans are not helpless. Homo Sapiens are at birth, but that doesn't mean Dragaerans are. I think with some (blatant?) planning of "slow growth rate" and "fast growth rate" we could even make the evidence reconcile, that is we could make the comments in Jhereg "fit in" with what we know of Savn and Polyi. I'm not sure Young Khaavren and Piro count, since they are the "Heroic" subjects of Paarfi's saga. Their maturity could be exaggerated. ------ Rachel commented on what was considered to be an adult in prior eras. It has always been my belief that while people of a younger age were _treated_ as adults (e.g. they were given adult responsibilities, could order people around, take part in council, vote, etc.), they did not actually have the emotional maturity required. A few probably did, but I suspect most did not. ------ Hasn't someone done an in-depth analysis of this previously? I seem to remember a discussion involving actual numbers. :) From alexx at TheWorld.com Wed Aug 20 08:50:17 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 11:50:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Next Vlad Book (was: Dumas parallels...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030819160119.0243e5e0@mail.whiterose.org> from "Greg Morrow" at Aug 19, 2003 04:15:23 PM Message-ID: <200308201550.LAA11204542@shell.TheWorld.com> > > > There's a scene in my head that occurs after the end of Issola. Funny, I've got the same scene in *my* head :-) > > > Mild SPOILERS for Issola > > > > > > > > > [scene snipped] > This scene, while fun to think about, wouldn't appear in the book, because, > of course, the audience already knows what Vlad's got, and that's a false > payoff. Not necessarily. After all, you don't need a "payoff" in the first chapter so much. And it *would* be a handy way to explain the current situation to the unfortunate reader who has not yet delighted in reading _Issola_. OTOH, the fact that more than one person who _has_ read _I_ has such a scene in their head may lead to SKZB not writing it out of sheer authorial perversity :-s Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx Nothing is as inevitable as a mistake whose time has come. [Seen on a Nancy Button, http://www.nancybuttons.com/] From alexx at TheWorld.com Wed Aug 20 08:52:33 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 11:52:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: More Questions About Great Weapons In-Reply-To: <20030819225034.CEYB419.lakemtao04.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net> from "Ken Padgett" at Aug 19, 2003 06:50:32 PM Message-ID: <200308201552.LAA12936095@shell.TheWorld.com> > > Since the gods tried so hard to eliminate Godslayer before it could fully manifest, how did Loraan come by Spellbreaker in the first place? He seems to be the collector for every magical oddment on Dragaera. Spellbreaker, the staff with Aliera, etc. Presumably it becomes known that he is a collector of such things in the relevant circles. (The relevant circles being "other collectors" and "high-end fences" -- there can't be *that* many people to whom you can resell a stolen magical Artifact). Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "There is hopeful symbolism in the fact that flags do not wave in a vacuum." --Arthur C. Clarke From alexx at TheWorld.com Wed Aug 20 08:56:31 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 11:56:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Lord of Castle Black In-Reply-To: <006001c366a5$571903c0$6601a8c0@attbi.com> from "Dennis Castle" at Aug 19, 2003 03:57:38 PM Message-ID: <200308201556.LAA13217796@shell.TheWorld.com> Spoiler space inserted > Loved all of it until the end. > > I don't care what careful plot twist is necessary in order to have Piro be > in the company of bandits for the next book. There is no way that the son > of Khaavren could turn against his own character, his friend the Empress, > the dignity of the respected personages he had encountered, and turn bandit > just because he had too few funds and his father wouldn't let him marry the > dzur. He is young, male, in love, and thwarted in that love. Such persons are not known for their exceedingly rational behaviour. He may well come to regret his hastiness, but I find it a plausible course of action. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx The job situation is so bad, I saw an engineer carrying a sign: "WILL WORK FOR FOOLS". -- Chris Jarocha-Ernst From charles_sumner at harvard.edu Wed Aug 20 09:29:00 2003 From: charles_sumner at harvard.edu (charles_sumner at harvard.edu) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:29:00 -0400 Subject: [OT] Re: Pretty or Cool Words? In-Reply-To: <200308192335.h7JNZWI29134@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030820120140.00ac0448@camail2.harvard.edu> At 04:35 PM 8/19/2003 -0700, you wrote: >Anyone else have any cool or interesting words they like? My favorite neologism (new word) is retronym. Retronym is the term for an existing word or figure of speech which has been modified to distinguish itself from a newer variant (usually due to technological advances). The best known examples of retronyms are acoustic guitar, analog watch, and manual typewriter. Those items were previously just called guitars, watches, and typewriters until the new versions came along and people needed to call the older items something new to differentiate them from the new items. And I'm fond of a neologism that I made up: Triskember Triskember is the mythical thirteenth month which, like tomorrow, never actually arrives. It's when my projects will actually be be completed. And for the linguists in the audience... Yes, I know that December would be "10th month" and is from Latin roots meaning that the mythical next month should be Undecember (or Tredecember for 13), but that doesn't sound nearly as cool as Triskember and it's not my fault that the month names and numbering systems aren't aligned. Charley Sumner charles_sumner at harvard.edu An open mind is one thing, letting geese run around in there is completely different. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Aug 20 09:42:07 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 09:42:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [SPOILERS] Council concepts Message-ID: <200308201642.h7KGg1I18695@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Daemian said: > I would actually have to disagree with you Laz. We've seen Vlad's > progression _away_ from his old life in several of the more recent (time > line) books. I believe that Vlad's days of being Jhereg are long gone. I > would have to describe him more accurately as the 'Anti-Hero'. Well, considering his opinions on Dzur, I'd have to agree he's "Anti-Hero".... :) Chris "If you can't live without me, die already." ~Cynthia Heimel From dr.elmo at whiterose.org Wed Aug 20 10:30:54 2003 From: dr.elmo at whiterose.org (Greg Morrow) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:30:54 -0500 Subject: Next Vlad Book (was: Dumas parallels...) In-Reply-To: <200308201550.LAA11204542@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030819160119.0243e5e0@mail.whiterose.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030820105732.02439120@mail.whiterose.org> Alexx S Kay wondered aloud to the group: >> This scene, while fun to think about, wouldn't appear in the book, because, >> of course, the audience already knows what Vlad's got, and that's a false >> payoff. > >Not necessarily. After all, you don't need a "payoff" in the first chapter >so much. Well, I'll disagree. A book isn't so parsimonious as a movie or a comic book or a short story, but still, it isn't good storytelling to include anything that's not necessary or anything that the audience already knows. (Insert rant about page inflation in Giant Fantasy Series here.) Generally, you don't want the audience to wait for the story to start. Including the Vlad/Demon scene is, in a word, fannish. It's a scene that's only about giving the reader a chance to feel smug, as is common in fanfic. I think Brust wouldn't want to write it unless he could confound our expectations of it and make it part of the story of the book. If its only purpose is to create a truce between Vlad and the Jhereg, it can be disposed of in a few words of exposition: "Since the Jhereg had opted for discretion in dealing with the wielder of a Great Weapon...." [1] > And it *would* be a handy way to explain the current situation to >the unfortunate reader who has not yet delighted in reading _Issola_. Now, that's a possibility. However, the necessary exposition would probably work better folded into the scene where non-spoiler-"it" "wakes up", since that scene would naturally have a lot of exposition on the same topic. [1] Although their treatment of Morrolan in _Jhereg_ would seem to make this unlikely. -- "And I still don't get the `drawing straws' plot development. They drew straws, and then as far as I can tell, the heroes _all_, every single one of them, went. And by `went', I apparently mean, `walked across the room to talk to Darkseid.' "--Michael Blakeman Cleveland on Genesis mailto:Dr.Elmo at whiterose.org http://www.whiterose.org/dr.elmo/blog/ From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Wed Aug 20 11:14:28 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:14:28 -0400 Subject: Vlad Actors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030820181428.GA1151@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 11:17:19PM -0400, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > Linda Hunt for Sethra. Lou Gossett Jr. for Aerich. Ajelica Huston for Sethra. -- "People tend to hit me." -- Mike Wayne, late 1989 From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Wed Aug 20 11:20:38 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:20:38 -0400 Subject: [SPOILERS] Council concepts In-Reply-To: <20030820153059.3301.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> References: <009001c366e2$e1e79b00$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> <20030820153059.3301.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030820182038.GB1151@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Wed, Aug 20, 2003 at 08:30:59AM -0700, Laurie Brassard wrote: > --- Daemian Spayde > wrote: > > I would actually have to disagree with you Laz. We've seen Vlad's > > progression _away_ from his old life in several of the more recent (time > > line) books. I believe that Vlad's days of being Jhereg are long gone. I > > would have to describe him more accurately as the 'Anti-Hero'. > > My first reaction was to agree that Vlad is moving away from the > Jhereg, but I really like the idea of him moving into more power > within the Jhereg, as well. What if (just trying to untie some > concepts I like) Vlad *changed* the Jhereg? That is, what if he did > take over the Council in some way, but not by killing them all? > Political assassination? Something different & cool that Steve comes > up with... I don't know, but considering the (not so) small matter of > his soul, it would make sense for him to create a whole new path for > them to follow. Vlad has learned his lesson that the Jhereg (and the Teckla, and Dragaera in general) cannot be changed by one guy trying to pull from the front. (obl. textref: "Teckla", etc) However, that's not the only reason he might go after the Jhereg Council. Suppose someone on the Council ordered a hit on someone Vlad loved (careful wording, there) and the only way to find out who was to penetrate the Council. Steve -- "People tend to hit me." -- Mike Wayne, late 1989 From greyw01f at hotmail.com Wed Aug 20 11:16:04 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 18:16:04 +0000 Subject: More on Mario the Mystery Message-ID: I wonder very much if it will come out that Mario wields a great weapon. It seems that anyone who is so good at what they do that they become legendary has some power behind them that makes them so--and so far, every time it has turned out to be a great weapon. and who is this Zungaron who is mentioned in _Issola_, the context of which implying that he wields a great weapon? Jon _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From feaelin at kemenel.org Wed Aug 20 11:24:55 2003 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Iain E. Davis) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 13:24:55 -0500 Subject: Next Vlad Book (was: Dumas parallels...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030820105732.02439120@mail.whiterose.org> Message-ID: <003701c36748$5b03ae60$6501a8c0@Khaavren> > From: Greg Morrow [mailto:dr.elmo at whiterose.org] > [1] Although their treatment of Morrolan in _Jhereg_ would > seem to make > this unlikely. I'd agree with this thought. Given the Demon's prior comments on this matter, I think the response to the idea is that regardless of how many Jhereg Vlad could destroy, kill, etc...would still be better than having Vlad out there, as a symbol of "someone who ratted on the Jhereg, and survived". I think the only possibility of the Jhereg leaving Vlad alone is if someone comes up with a way to "save face" for the Jhereg. One method would be the classic "faked" death, perhaps. Although at this point, since Vlad has been "home free" for at least a year or so, he may already have severely damaged the House of Jhereg's reputation. :) From feaelin at kemenel.org Wed Aug 20 11:34:32 2003 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Iain E. Davis) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 13:34:32 -0500 Subject: [SPOILERS] Council concepts In-Reply-To: <20030820182038.GB1151@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <003a01c36749$b3eaf820$6501a8c0@Khaavren> > From: Steve Simmons [mailto:scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us] > Vlad has learned his lesson that the Jhereg (and the Teckla, > and Dragaera in general) cannot be changed by one guy trying > to pull from the front. (obl. textref: "Teckla", etc) > However, that's not the only reason he might go after the > Jhereg Council. Suppose someone on the Council ordered a hit > on someone Vlad loved (careful wording, there) and the only > way to find out who was to penetrate the Council. I don't see how Vlad could "penetrate" the council, by overt, or covert means. There may be many easterners around, but just how many of them are going to be part of the Jhereg? Vlad would stand out like a sore thumb. He could _perhaps_ _buy_ someone on the council, or close to the council, but that would take, well, the contents of the Jhereg Treasury? I wonder how Kiera is treated by the Jhereg now. I wonder if she is in trouble because of her "friend, the easterner" is trouble. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Aug 20 11:39:48 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 11:39:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Next Vlad Book (was: Dumas parallels...) In-Reply-To: <003701c36748$5b03ae60$6501a8c0@Khaavren> References: <003701c36748$5b03ae60$6501a8c0@Khaavren> Message-ID: I'm voting for Vlad killing everybody in his way until the Empress tells him to stop lest he unbalance society, whereupon he informs her that his GW makes him able to assassinate her despite the Orb's protection, after which he installs Kragar as the Council/Heir. I'm also looking forward to him taking down StY and making her swear at swordpoint not to mess with the East. On Wed, 20 Aug 2003, Iain E. Davis wrote: > > From: Greg Morrow [mailto:dr.elmo at whiterose.org] > > > [1] Although their treatment of Morrolan in _Jhereg_ would > > seem to make > > this unlikely. > > I'd agree with this thought. Given the Demon's prior comments on this > matter, I think the response to the idea is that regardless of how many > Jhereg Vlad could destroy, kill, etc...would still be better than having > Vlad out there, as a symbol of "someone who ratted on the Jhereg, and > survived". > > I think the only possibility of the Jhereg leaving Vlad alone is if someone > comes up with a way to "save face" for the Jhereg. One method would be the > classic "faked" death, perhaps. Although at this point, since Vlad has been > "home free" for at least a year or so, he may already have severely damaged > the House of Jhereg's reputation. :) > > From Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 20 11:45:38 2003 From: Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net (Daemian Spayde) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 11:45:38 -0700 Subject: [SPOILERS] Council concepts References: <003a01c36749$b3eaf820$6501a8c0@Khaavren> Message-ID: <002a01c3674b$4049eaa0$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> Spoiler Space (just in case) Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't VERRA Vlad's antagonist? ======== "Insert witty Quote here" Daemian Spayde, Vlad Clone #2,346,012 a.k.a. Katt Jean IFGS SoCal President socal.ifgs.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iain E. Davis" To: "'Steve Simmons'" ; "'Dragaera Mailing List'" Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 11:34 AM Subject: RE: [SPOILERS] Council concepts > > From: Steve Simmons [mailto:scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us] > > > Vlad has learned his lesson that the Jhereg (and the Teckla, > > and Dragaera in general) cannot be changed by one guy trying > > to pull from the front. (obl. textref: "Teckla", etc) > > However, that's not the only reason he might go after the > > Jhereg Council. Suppose someone on the Council ordered a hit > > on someone Vlad loved (careful wording, there) and the only > > way to find out who was to penetrate the Council. > > I don't see how Vlad could "penetrate" the council, by overt, or covert > means. There may be many easterners around, but just how many of them are > going to be part of the Jhereg? Vlad would stand out like a sore thumb. He > could _perhaps_ _buy_ someone on the council, or close to the council, but > that would take, well, the contents of the Jhereg Treasury? > > I wonder how Kiera is treated by the Jhereg now. I wonder if she is in > trouble because of her "friend, the easterner" is trouble. > From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Wed Aug 20 11:55:46 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:55:46 -0400 Subject: [SPOILERS] Council concepts In-Reply-To: <003a01c36749$b3eaf820$6501a8c0@Khaavren> References: <20030820182038.GB1151@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <003a01c36749$b3eaf820$6501a8c0@Khaavren> Message-ID: <20030820185546.GA562@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Wed, Aug 20, 2003 at 01:34:32PM -0500, Iain E. Davis wrote: > > From: Steve Simmons [mailto:scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us] > > > However, that's not the only reason he might go after the > > Jhereg Council. Suppose someone on the Council ordered a hit > > on someone Vlad loved (careful wording, there) and the only > > way to find out who was to penetrate the Council. > > I don't see how Vlad could "penetrate" the council, by overt, or covert > means. There may be many easterners around, but just how many of them are > going to be part of the Jhereg? Vlad would stand out like a sore thumb. I'm assuming here that somehow Vlad and the Council bury the hatchet before the hit occurs. In fact, I can come up with some circumstances that'd make the above plot line fly: Vlad, in his usual role of key man by accident, assists Sethra Lavode, the Gods, and the Empress in Saving The World From The Jenoine. As a reward, the Empress offers her personal protection - anyone who assassinates Vlad will be tracked down with the help of the Orb and dispatched by Godslayer. This, of course, begs the question of whether or not it's even possible for ordinary means to kill Vlad given his current armaments. Since they can't do anything about it, The Council agrees to this, tho much against their will. Vlad returns to his last territories in Adrilankha where he plays a combination of King Log and Benevolent Dictator For Life. The Council (or some members of it) decide that if they can't get Vlad, they *can* get Cawti or someone of equal importance. And they do. The Empress reluctantly agrees that the letter of the law has been upheld, and does not offer the Orb in support. So Vlad needs to become a member of the Council to find out who. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Aug 20 13:30:03 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 13:30:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More on Mario the Mystery Message-ID: <200308202029.h7KKTtI00501@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Possible Spoiler Alert and Theory. You have been warned.... Jon wrote: > and who is this Zungaron who is mentioned in _Issola_, the context of which > implying that he wields a great weapon? Given the context of the passage where Zungaron is mentioned (and I am away from my books at the moment, so please forgive if I'm a bit off), I believe Zungaron is Vlad as he was "back in the day" of Kieron. If I recall correctly, Zungaron doesn't know he weilds a Great Weapon (as told by Sethra), and I don't believe Vlad's past- life name is given in Jhereg. And it would be just like Sethra to slide around giving Vlad more information than she believes he needs at the time. Just my thoughts, Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Wed Aug 20 13:53:25 2003 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 13:53:25 -0700 Subject: More on Mario the Mystery Message-ID: >From: Chris Olson - SunPS >Reply-To: Chris Olson - SunPS >To: Dragaera at dragaera.info, greyw01f at hotmail.com >Subject: Re: More on Mario the Mystery >Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 13:30:03 -0700 (PDT) > >Possible Spoiler Alert and Theory. > > >You have been warned.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Jon wrote: > > and who is this Zungaron who is mentioned in _Issola_, the context of >which > > implying that he wields a great weapon? > >Given the context of the passage where Zungaron is mentioned (and >I am away from my books at the moment, so please forgive if I'm >a bit off), I believe Zungaron is Vlad as he was "back in the day" >of Kieron. If I recall correctly, Zungaron doesn't know he weilds >a Great Weapon (as told by Sethra), and I don't believe Vlad's past- >life name is given in Jhereg. Sorry, It's DOLIVAR- ex-Dragon, ex-brother of Kieron James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN And it would be just like Sethra to >slide around giving Vlad more information than she believes he >needs at the time. > >Just my thoughts, >Chris > >"Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you >in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." > -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Aug 20 13:54:25 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 13:54:25 -0700 Subject: House Animals In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030819012347.030c7940@localhost> <20030819030502.96363.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20030819012347.030c7940@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030820135327.01d52ec0@localhost> At 01:30 AM 8/19/2003 -0700, lazarus wrote: >On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:24:06 -0700, you wrote: > > >Am I remembering correctly, that you described the tsalmoth as a giant >land oyster? Actually, a six-foot diameter snail. However, I was not being entirely serious. From alexx at theworld.com Wed Aug 20 12:54:03 2003 From: alexx at theworld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 15:54:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Next Vlad Book (was: Dumas parallels...) In-Reply-To: <003701c36748$5b03ae60$6501a8c0@Khaavren> from "Iain E. Davis" at Aug 20, 2003 01:24:55 PM Message-ID: <200308201954.PAA13351942@shell.TheWorld.com> > I think the only possibility of the Jhereg leaving Vlad alone is if someone > comes up with a way to "save face" for the Jhereg. One method would be the > classic "faked" death, perhaps. Although at this point, since Vlad has been > "home free" for at least a year or so, he may already have severely damaged > the House of Jhereg's reputation. :) I wouldn't say so much "home free" as "desperately on the run, living like a rat, in fear for his life at every moment." Or at least, that's what I would say if I was in charge of Jhereg Council spin. And it's not that inaccurate, really. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "As regards the increasingly quaint notion of "Realism," a concept dependent upon the broader notion of "Reality," then I'm afraid that I'm equally at a loss." -- Alan Moore in correspondence with Dave Sim about _From Hell_ From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Aug 20 13:57:39 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 13:57:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More on Mario the Mystery Message-ID: <200308202057.h7KKvVI05349@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> James Griffin, wrote: > Sorry, It's DOLIVAR- ex-Dragon, ex-brother of Kieron See, that's why I dislike being away from books. Quite right, it was Dolivar. Now, I wonder if he changed his name after they kicked him out? What? It was a nice theory while it lasted. All ten seconds of it.... :0 Chris "I feel if a person can't communicate, the very least they can do is shut up." ~ Tom Lehrer ~ From bio_phy at hotmail.com Wed Aug 20 14:03:14 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 16:03:14 -0500 Subject: House Animals Message-ID: Say it ain't so! (Well, there goes *that* mascot option. So much for the St. Louis Tsalmoth...) johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ >From: Steven Brust >To: lazarus , Dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: House Animals >Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 13:54:25 -0700 > >At 01:30 AM 8/19/2003 -0700, lazarus wrote: >>On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:24:06 -0700, you wrote: >> >> >>Am I remembering correctly, that you described the tsalmoth as a giant >>land oyster? > >Actually, a six-foot diameter snail. > >However, I was not being entirely serious. _________________________________________________________________ Help protect your PC: Get a free online virus scan at McAfee.com. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Aug 20 14:00:43 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:00:43 -0700 Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) In-Reply-To: <20030819110259.A22052@gw.dd-b.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030819012533.030c7d90@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20030819012533.030c7d90@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030820135829.0308d150@localhost> At 11:02 AM 8/19/2003 -0500, pddb at demesne.com wrote: >On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 01:26:06AM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: > > At 10:35 PM 8/18/2003 -0700, David Silberstein wrote: > > > On the other hand, he also says: "The > > >two artifacts were, or are to be, created together --", which > > >ambiguifies the causality and sequence. > > > > Mark? Pamela? Can he say that? > >Sure, as long as he's being whimsical about it. Okay, I can accept that. Has it occurred to you lately what a perfect, and perfectly wonderful word "whimsical" is? From usagigoya at hotmail.com Wed Aug 20 14:07:30 2003 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 21:07:30 +0000 Subject: House Animals Message-ID: >Steven Brust >At 01:30 AM 8/19/2003 -0700, lazarus wrote: >>On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:24:06 -0700, you wrote: >> >> >>Am I remembering correctly, that you described the tsalmoth as a giant >>land oyster? > >Actually, a six-foot diameter snail. > >However, I was not being entirely serious. > > > I read an interview where you made a similar comment when describing why you don't provide descriptions or details concerning things not relative to the current story or plot... i.e. why describe something which you might want to change at a later date... _________________________________________________________________ Help protect your PC: Get a free online virus scan at McAfee.com. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From bio_phy at hotmail.com Wed Aug 20 14:09:24 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 16:09:24 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) Message-ID: >>Sure, as long as he's being whimsical about it. > >Okay, I can accept that. > >Has it occurred to you lately what a perfect, and perfectly wonderful word >"whimsical" is? This reveals one of the things that continues to draw me in, the sheer love of cool words and clever wordplay. As a Technical Writer by day and wannabe Creative Writer by night, I find that so many people regard words as blunt instruments rather than tools, obstacles rather than treasures. It is a breath of fresh air, I tell you, to rub shoulders with people that retain the capacity to marvel at them and revel with them. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ _________________________________________________________________ Get MSN 8 and help protect your children with advanced parental controls. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental From bjf at wavefront.com Wed Aug 20 14:18:30 2003 From: bjf at wavefront.com (Beth Friedman) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 16:18:30 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030820135829.0308d150@localhost> References: <20030819110259.A22052@gw.dd-b.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20030819012533.030c7d90@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20030819012533.030c7d90@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030820161712.05607e80@shell.visi.com> In our previous episode at 04:00 PM 8/20/03, Steven Brust wrote: >At 11:02 AM 8/19/2003 -0500, pddb at demesne.com wrote: >>On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 01:26:06AM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: >> > Mark? Pamela? Can he say that? >> >>Sure, as long as he's being whimsical about it. > >Okay, I can accept that. > >Has it occurred to you lately what a perfect, and perfectly wonderful word >"whimsical" is? Might even make a good word to use in one's family motto. -- Beth Friedman / bjf at wavefront.com There are 10 types of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those who don't. From usagigoya at hotmail.com Wed Aug 20 14:20:27 2003 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 21:20:27 +0000 Subject: House Animals Message-ID: >From: Steven Brust >>>At 08:05 PM 8/18/2003 -0700, Hans Schweitzer wrote: >>>http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/treats/dzurlordintro.html >>> >>>That introduction was informative. > >Not, however, canonical, as far as I know. > OK, Is anything you wrote prior to 1987 positively canonical? Or is it just things published in 1986, i.e. A Dream of Passion, Dzurlord Introduction, and bits and pieces of Jhereg and Yendi? _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Wed Aug 20 14:22:36 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:22:36 -0700 Subject: Orb to navigate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030820212236.GA5052@ofb.net> On Sun, Aug 17, 2003 at 07:31:59PM -0500, Rachel L. Ruhlen wrote: > That explains how _Orca_ navigate. What about the pirates from Elde > Island/Greenaere? They don't have the handy Orb link. I got the impression neither island is that far from the mainland. "Go that away", then navigate by coastal landmarks. For all the OrbGPS speculation, we have very little evidence of deep sea navigation. The Known World seems to be one big continent plus a couple of islands. A counter argument might be Khaavren sitting, hoping to see ships come in... if they come in over the horizon, rather than along the coast, I'm not sure where they'd be coming from. -xx- Damien X-) From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Wed Aug 20 14:23:43 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:23:43 -0400 Subject: Next Vlad Book (was: Dumas parallels...) In-Reply-To: <200308201954.PAA13351942@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <003701c36748$5b03ae60$6501a8c0@Khaavren> <200308201954.PAA13351942@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <20030820212343.GA1829@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Speaking generally of Dumas' plots vs Brusts -- I've just completed re-reading "The Three Musketeers" and most of "The Phoenix Guards". The plots match only in the broadest of outlines. Thus I wouldn't take anything Dumas does in later books as guides for current or future Brust productions. -- "People tend to hit me." -- Mike Wayne, late 1989 From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Wed Aug 20 14:24:06 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:24:06 -0700 Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: References: <200308072103.RAA11664134@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <20030820212406.GB5052@ofb.net> On Thu, Aug 07, 2003 at 02:29:02PM -0700, lazarus wrote: > Here's an odd question. Why would they have months if they can't see > the moon? Just a terran holdover? For that many thousands of years? Our months aren't dependent on the Moon anymore, and our solar calendar goes back at least two thousand years. Once people get used to conventient time chunks they get used to them, especially if there's a mystical number worked in. -xx- Damien X-) From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Wed Aug 20 14:26:03 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:26:03 -0400 Subject: House Animals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030820212603.GB1829@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Wed, Aug 20, 2003 at 04:03:14PM -0500, Johne Cook wrote: > Say it ain't so! (Well, there goes *that* mascot option. So much for the > St. Louis Tsalmoth...) Somewhere in Washington state there is a football team named the Banana Slugs. -- "People tend to hit me." -- Mike Wayne, late 1989 From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Wed Aug 20 14:55:50 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:55:50 -0700 Subject: Sethra and connections (spoilery for Agyar / TRiH) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030814162616.02459a88@mail.whiterose.org> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030814162616.02459a88@mail.whiterose.org> Message-ID: <20030820215550.GC5052@ofb.net> On Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 04:26:24PM -0500, Greg Morrow wrote: > Much of the Taltos books can be read through an AD&D lens--Vlad is clearly > an assassin, a character class in 1st edition AD&D, for example. Dragaerans > are elves that are Tolkienesque in height, but are otherwise 1st ed. AD&D > elves, with 2,000 year lifespans (not immortal), and (in Jhereg I know of no evidence that Tokien's elves were as tall as Dragaerans. They may be described as "tall", but I've always taken that as meaning they're well fed and in good health, vs. the short men of Bree with short genes anyway. Tolkien never made clear how you can tell a Man from an Elf just by looking at them, and I think men like Tuor occasionally confused people anyway, which wouldn't happen if there were a two foot height difference. I think Elves just look like really good looking humans, plus occasionally glowing a bit especially if they're Noldor. I'll note that it's rare for 7 or 8 foot women to be considered beautiful by 6 foot men... -xx- Damien X-) From dr.elmo at whiterose.org Wed Aug 20 14:56:33 2003 From: dr.elmo at whiterose.org (Greg Morrow) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 16:56:33 -0500 Subject: Next Vlad Book (was: Dumas parallels...) In-Reply-To: <003701c36748$5b03ae60$6501a8c0@Khaavren> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030820105732.02439120@mail.whiterose.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030820164401.022326c0@mail.whiterose.org> Iain E. Davis wondered aloud: >Given the Demon's prior comments on this >matter, I think the response to the idea is that regardless of how many >Jhereg Vlad could destroy, kill, etc...would still be better than having >Vlad out there, as a symbol of "someone who ratted on the Jhereg, and >survived". Not an unreasonable extrapolation of his role in _Jhereg_. However, wozname in _Jhereg_ had stolen the Council Treasury, which is, I think, in need of significantly more face-saving than ratting out the Jhereg. We see that the former merits Morganti, now, regardless; we see, also from Jhereg, that the latter merits Morganti, but not now and probably not regardless. And when the guy ratting out the Jhereg: a) has a Great Weapon b) has three buddies with Great Weapons c) has someone who would revenge him who was part of the second-best assassin team in the Jhereg and whose best friend is the Dragon Heir d) has the favor of the Empress e) has the favor of the Demon Goddess f) is a favorite uncle of another goddess g) is only going to live another fifty years even if he's not assassinated the Jhereg might be well be willing to temper their wrath. Could go either way. I figure SKZB is likely to come up with an interesting solution.... -- "From Hell's heart, I stab at thee. For Hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee, thou damned whale!" --Herman Melville, _Moby Dick_ mailto:Dr.Elmo at whiterose.org http://www.whiterose.org/dr.elmo/blog/ From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Wed Aug 20 15:00:09 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 15:00:09 -0700 Subject: Sethra and connections (spoilery for Agyar / TRiH) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030820220009.GD5052@ofb.net> On Tue, Aug 12, 2003 at 04:58:56PM -0600, jazzfish at softhome.net wrote: > S > > P > > O > > I > > L > > E > > R > > S > > P > > A > > C > > E > > Possibly very similar to Jack Agyar's. There's a decent amount of > circumstantial evidence that the Jenoine peopled Dragaera with transplanted > humans ('small invisible lights' et al), so it's (barely) possible that you > can draw connections between /all/ of Steve's works... I think it's Verra in _Phoenix_ who says "your people came here before the Jenoine". > On a similar subject, doubtless someone's brought this up before, but: Me. :) > Angels as Jenoine? Just barely possible. (AFB at moment, so can't provide > any sort of decent textev, even assuming such exists.) Glad someone else had the thought. Although I wouldn't go so far as to say that TRiH is actually the beginning of the Dragaeraverse, just that Brust used similar metaphysics, and thus that the Jenoine are the angels of this verse, without necessarily being related to the ones in TRiH. The evidence I really found suspicious was the claim that the Jenoine have a natural resistance or immunity to the effects of amorphia, when amorphia isn't supposed to exist anywhere else in the universe. How can you have a natural resistance to something outside of nature? Well, by luck, like bugs and DDT, but a neater explanation would be that they come from the amorphia. -xx- Damien X-) From nadilday at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 15:10:32 2003 From: nadilday at yahoo.com (Nathan Dilday) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 15:10:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: House Animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030820221032.13427.qmail@web12706.mail.yahoo.com> --- Steve Hubbell wrote: > OK, Is anything you wrote prior to 1987 positively > canonical? Or is it just > things published in 1986, i.e. A Dream of Passion, > Dzurlord Introduction, > and bits and pieces of Jhereg and Yendi? I certainly don't want to put words in Mr. Brust's mouth, but I'd be shocked and appalled if either "A Dream of Passion" or "Dzurlord" were considered canonical. This is, admittedly, based on a Q&A with him at a local convention, so I could be remembering poorly. Be Seeing You, Nathan __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU Wed Aug 20 15:13:06 2003 From: goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (David Goldfarb) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 15:13:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: House Animals Message-ID: <200308202213.h7KMD6f06587@apocalypse.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> From: Steve Simmons >On Wed, Aug 20, 2003 at 04:03:14PM -0500, Johne Cook wrote: >> Say it ain't so! (Well, there goes *that* mascot option. So much for the >> St. Louis Tsalmoth...) > >Somewhere in Washington state there is a football team named the Banana >Slugs. I think you're thinking of UC Santa Cruz, all of whose sports teams have the Banana Slug as a mascot. -- David Goldfarb <*>| "You can't do only one thing." goldfarb at ocf.berkeley.edu | goldfarb at csua.berkeley.edu | -- John W. Campbell, Jr. From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Wed Aug 20 15:18:37 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 15:18:37 -0700 Subject: Lord of Castle Black In-Reply-To: <200308140000.UAA12238664@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <3F3AB2A6.4070606@comcast.net> <200308140000.UAA12238664@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <20030820221837.GE5052@ofb.net> On Wed, Aug 13, 2003 at 08:00:45PM -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: > I think it rather likelier that he has simply managed to not die, > through one means or another, but there is no definitive textev. Note that the wizard Sandor lived for a long time with sorcery. Not in top condition, but he was only an Easterner, probably mostly self-taught. The Empress's lover could have better instruction -- say from the Sorceress in Green, as one obviously qualified candidate. Somehow I don't feel that Noish-pa is the sort to choose an unnaturally long life. Good health for his lifespan, yes, but he doesn't strike me as the clingy sort. And maybe he could look younger, but this would have social drawbacks. None of Morrolan's witches actually live that long; Arra is maintained by the Demon Goddess, not witchcraft. -xx- Damien X-) From goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU Wed Aug 20 15:18:56 2003 From: goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (David Goldfarb) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 15:18:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Next Vlad Book (was: Dumas parallels...) Message-ID: <200308202218.h7KMIuH06677@apocalypse.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> From: Philip Hart >I'm voting for Vlad killing everybody in his way until the Empress >tells him to stop lest he unbalance society, whereupon he informs >her that his GW makes him able to assassinate her despite the Orb's >protection, after which he installs Kragar as the Council/Heir. This doesn't seem consistent with what we've read on the title page of the Paarfi books, however. -- David Goldfarb <*>|"The Uncertainty Principle allows particles goldfarb at ocf.berkeley.edu | to travel faster than light over short distances." goldfarb at csua.berkeley.edu | -- Stephen Hawking From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Wed Aug 20 15:22:55 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 15:22:55 -0700 Subject: Traffic to Deathgate (was: Re: Lord of Castle Black In-Reply-To: <200308142006.QAA12485338@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <3F3B0307.5040507@comcast.net> <200308142006.QAA12485338@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <20030820222255.GF5052@ofb.net> > Regardless of the frequency of traffic, it does seem odd to me that > there are no roads, post stations, or villages with inns for the > majority of the last leg of the jounrey to Deathgate. Presumably, Villages wouldn't want to settle there, perhaps. And inns do need some frequency of traffic to survive. How many morgues have vending machines? -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Wed Aug 20 15:36:10 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 15:36:10 -0700 Subject: Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ and ISSOLA (was Re: Dumas) In-Reply-To: <3F3D0F29.4010000@earthlink.net> References: <200308142011.QAA12298134@shell.TheWorld.com> <3F3C335B.8010305@earthlink.net> <3F3C587D.90406@earthlink.net> <20030815044245.GA783@infodancer.org> <3F3D0F29.4010000@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20030820223610.GG5052@ofb.net> On Fri, Aug 15, 2003 at 12:49:45PM -0400, Jose Marquez wrote: > > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >prophesied at least three times -- Morrolan's dreams and Sethra. > >"Here's a sword" strikes me as a horribly offhand way to fulfill > >such a heavily-prophesied event. Especially since the experience > >was from a pseudo-Morrolan point of view, and he didn't mention > >anything even remotely like what Vlad described. > > > I don't know.... "Here's a sword" is infinitely more impressive when it > comes from the Enchantress of Dzur Mountain. And I loved seeing Sethra > trying to intimidate Morrolan and failing, all because he didn't know > who she was. I think I just really enjoy the irony of the prophecies and > dreams culminating in "Here's a sword." It makes me laugh. Yes. And it is not the responsibility of the historian to ornament the facts of history for the mere amusement of the reader; in fact, it would be a gross breach of the duties of the historian to do so. Such elaboration with fancy should, of course, not be confused with the selection of interesting and informative but above all true moments, which selection may indeed be peformed by the historian, and should be performed by the author of historical romance, as in fact it has been by Paarfi. > >It hasn't shot bolts of sorcery at anybody. Morrolan hasn't We saw that once, in a battle with Jenoine? -xx- Damien X-) From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Wed Aug 20 15:39:27 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 18:39:27 -0400 Subject: Black wand (LoCB/Issola spoilers) In-Reply-To: <20030820223610.GG5052@ofb.net> References: <200308142011.QAA12298134@shell.TheWorld.com> <3F3C335B.8010305@earthlink.net> <3F3C587D.90406@earthlink.net> <20030815044245.GA783@infodancer.org> <3F3D0F29.4010000@earthlink.net> <20030820223610.GG5052@ofb.net> Message-ID: <3F43F89F.8090503@earthlink.net> I just realized that unless Blackwand is a picky eater, it claimed around 30 souls when Morrolan put it in action. It might need to wake up, but it certainly isn't missing a soul... Jose -- Jose Marquez \ Cthulhu 2004 jhereg69 at earthlink.net \ Why vote for http://home.earthlink.net/~jhereg69 \ the lesser evil? From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Wed Aug 20 15:46:30 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 15:46:30 -0700 Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: References: <20030816071747.GF2053@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20030820224630.GH5052@ofb.net> On Sat, Aug 16, 2003 at 01:27:12AM -0600, Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert wrote: > > > > I await her earthshattering effects upon the world. > > > Read the end of _Issola_, where she effects the defeat of the J. > > > > I find "I asked Daddy to do it" to be dramatically lacking for > > this purpose. > > "I asked Daddy to do it", "I took a chance that Pathfinder could keep me > from being dead in order to save the empire from a Dragon/Jhereg war", > whatever she's going to do in the future, etc ... > > I think the risks taken were pretty well worth it... and will probably > become more worth it as time passes. Plus Devera needs to be born. -xx- Damien X-) From Gaertk at aol.com Wed Aug 20 15:55:38 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 18:55:38 -0400 Subject: Orb to navigate Message-ID: <67168BFF.453C1F7D.00048EA6@aol.com> Damien Sullivan writes: > For all the OrbGPS speculation, we have very little > evidence of deep sea navigation. ?The Known World seems to > be one big continent plus a couple of islands. ?A counter > argument might be Khaavren sitting, hoping to see ships > come in... if they come in over the horizon, rather than > along the coast, I'm not sure where they'd be coming from. In _Orca_, there's mention of something called the Maelstorm (I think) that keeps folks from sailing very far (to the west at least). In _Brokedown Palace_, Brigitta plans on reaching the Empire by sailing south around whatever. (Hrm, is BP officially canon?) --KG From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Wed Aug 20 15:57:03 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 15:57:03 -0700 Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: References: <200308162210.SAA12643107@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <20030820225703.GI5052@ofb.net> > >> I confess that I am still puzzled as to why Aliera's soul was > >> sufficiently valuable to be retrieved from the Paths by such > >> extreme and unprecedently measures. > >Morrolan got the idea into his head. Once that happens, not even > >Sethra Lavode is likely to be able to convince him to stop :-) > Er. Morrolan wouldn't have even known he had a cousin whose soul was > in a staff if Sethra hadn't told him where it was. Wasn't meant to be so extreme. Sethra had Morrolan help her with finding Aliera and recruiting Vlad, and later rescuing Vlad. After that Vlad was supposed to hop over to the Paths, take the easy route in, meet Verra and then Aliera, and go out. Morrolan going was a last minute improv suggested jokingly by Vlad and taken up by Morrolan, no doubt to Sethra's surprise. -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Wed Aug 20 16:04:22 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 16:04:22 -0700 Subject: [no SPOILERS] nor anything to do with LOCB In-Reply-To: References: <20030817020630.GG7760@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20030820230422.GJ5052@ofb.net> On Sun, Aug 17, 2003 at 01:03:50AM -0700, David Silberstein wrote: > Teckla have no *title* but they are born with an Orb link, because > they are members of a House in the Empire. Easterners are not. I think in the depressing books Cawti says Easterners suffer from not having sorcery, and Vlad says they could buy a title in the Jhereg or move to the countryside and swear to a lord, which I presume means joining the Teckla. I further presume that urban Teckla without a lord over them are a kink in the original system design. Note Paarfi happily answered the question of how links are usually passed on to children. Yay! -xx- Damien X-) From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Aug 20 16:07:39 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 16:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: House Animals Message-ID: <200308202307.h7KN7VI26976@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Nathan said: > --- Steve Hubbell wrote: > > OK, Is anything you wrote prior to 1987 positively > > canonical? Or is it just > > things published in 1986, i.e. A Dream of Passion, > > Dzurlord Introduction, > > and bits and pieces of Jhereg and Yendi? > > I certainly don't want to put words in Mr. Brust's > mouth, but I'd be shocked and appalled if either "A > Dream of Passion" or "Dzurlord" were considered > canonical. This is, admittedly, based on a Q&A with > him at a local convention, so I could be remembering > poorly. Are you kidding? I'd *love* to put words into Brust's mouth! The problem, however, would be choosing *which* words.... Chris "Psst, lemme outa here!" - Doc From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Wed Aug 20 16:11:23 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 16:11:23 -0700 Subject: Dragaeran Age In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030820231123.GK5052@ofb.net> On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 09:40:49PM +0000, Jon Carey wrote: > > Evolutionarily speaking, the idea of a 30 year old baby is simply > ridiculous. Anyone with a child knows that for the most part, infants are But Dragaerans didn't evolve. -xx- Damien X-) From TimN at rcn.com Wed Aug 20 16:31:37 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:31:37 -0400 Subject: Traffic to Deathgate (was: Re: Lord of Castle Black References: <3F3B0307.5040507@comcast.net> <200308142006.QAA12485338@shell.TheWorld.com> <20030820222255.GF5052@ofb.net> Message-ID: <008f01c36773$34244cc0$d916fea9@ananda> My Daddy took me on a field trip to a morgue back in Jr. High, and yes, it had a coke machine. :) Good point though. ----- Original Message ----- From: Damien Sullivan To: Dragaera Mailing List Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 6:22 PM Subject: Re: Traffic to Deathgate (was: Re: Lord of Castle Black > > Regardless of the frequency of traffic, it does seem odd to me that > > there are no roads, post stations, or villages with inns for the > > majority of the last leg of the jounrey to Deathgate. Presumably, > > Villages wouldn't want to settle there, perhaps. And inns do need some > frequency of traffic to survive. > > How many morgues have vending machines? > > -xx- Damien X-) From pulmon at comcast.net Wed Aug 20 16:48:51 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:48:51 -0400 Subject: [SPOILERS] Council concepts In-Reply-To: <20030820153059.3301.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It is just a case of verbal strokes. Anyway, I vote for Vlad being made a Dragon. He has the right soul, an Imperial title, an enviable weapon, and friends in high places. He has served in the army and earned a medal (albeit unawarded). This solves virtually every problem except the creation of interesting stories. Vlad the Jhereg is much more interesting than would be Vlad the Dragon. On the other hand, his father could return from the grave to shep naches. Ken On Wednesday, August 20, 2003, at 11:30 AM, Laurie Brassard wrote: > --- Daemian Spayde > wrote: >> I would actually have to disagree with you Laz. >> We've seen Vlad's >> progression _away_ from his old life in several of >> the more recent (time >> line) books. I believe that Vlad's days of being >> Jhereg are long gone. I >> would have to describe him more accurately as the >> 'Anti-Hero'. >> > > My first reaction was to agree that Vlad is moving > away from the Jhereg, but I really like the idea of > him moving into more power within the Jhereg, as well. > What if (just trying to untie some concepts I like) > Vlad *changed* the Jhereg? That is, what if he did > take over the Council in some way, but not by killing > them all? Political assassination? Something > different & cool that Steve comes up with... I don't > know, but considering the (not so) small matter of his > soul, it would make sense for him to create a whole > new path for them to follow. > > And someone said (sorry for the vague attribution; I > don't have the older posts here) Piro might be the > Demon. I agree with later comments that it's > unlikely, but he's certainly becoming a Jhereg, isn't > he? > > Finally, in reference to a more recent post I deleted, > I think I'm going to have to put "elocute > masturbatively" on a bumper sticker. It makes so very > little sense, but it does so in such an obscene way... > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Aug 20 16:57:06 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 20 Aug 2003 18:57:06 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030820161712.05607e80@shell.visi.com> References: <20030819110259.A22052@gw.dd-b.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20030819012533.030c7d90@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20030819012533.030c7d90@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20030820161712.05607e80@shell.visi.com> Message-ID: Beth Friedman writes: > In our previous episode at 04:00 PM 8/20/03, Steven Brust wrote: > >At 11:02 AM 8/19/2003 -0500, pddb at demesne.com wrote: > >>On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 01:26:06AM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: > >> > Mark? Pamela? Can he say that? > >> > >>Sure, as long as he's being whimsical about it. > > > >Okay, I can accept that. > > > > Has it occurred to you lately what a perfect, and perfectly > > wonderful word "whimsical" is? > > Might even make a good word to use in one's family motto. Hmmm; what's the latin for "whimsical when bored"? -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera mailing lists: From ehahn at isochronism.com Wed Aug 20 16:58:22 2003 From: ehahn at isochronism.com (Edward Hahn) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:58:22 -0400 Subject: House Animals In-Reply-To: <20030820212603.GB1829@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <2DFB537A-D36A-11D7-9C48-000393962F9C@isochronism.com> On Wednesday, Aug 20, 2003, at 17:26 US/Eastern, Steve Simmons wrote: > On Wed, Aug 20, 2003 at 04:03:14PM -0500, Johne Cook wrote: >> Say it ain't so! (Well, there goes *that* mascot option. So much >> for the >> St. Louis Tsalmoth...) > > Somewhere in Washington state there is a football team named the Banana > Slugs. Of course, there is the Evergreen State College "Geoducks"... http://www.geoduck.org/images_for_pages/biology1.jpg ed From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Wed Aug 20 17:55:41 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 20:55:41 -0400 Subject: Orb to navigate Message-ID: <20030821005541.GD2246@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Sun, Aug 17, 2003 at 07:31:59PM -0500, Rachel L. Ruhlen wrote: > That explains how _Orca_ navigate. What about the pirates from Elde > Island/Greenaere? They don't have the handy Orb link. If the Polynesians could do it over much larger distances, the Orca can do it. Let's also note that Legend Has It that the various Dragaeran tribes actually contain genetic material from the animal they're named after. If orca can navigate at sea, Orca should be able to too. *Gads*, I loved writing that last sentence. From scs at di.org Wed Aug 20 18:01:52 2003 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 21:01:52 -0400 Subject: [no SPOILERS] nor anything to do with LOCB In-Reply-To: <20030820230422.GJ5052@ofb.net> References: <20030817020630.GG7760@infodancer.org> <20030820230422.GJ5052@ofb.net> Message-ID: <20030821010152.GF2246@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Wed, Aug 20, 2003 at 04:04:22PM -0700, Damien Sullivan wrote: > Note Paarfi happily answered the question of how links are usually passed on > to children. Yay! Boy, I need to re-read those sections closely. If it really means that the link is inherited if active in the parent, then Vlads children will have it unto the last generation. -- "People tend to hit me." -- Mike Wayne, late 1989 From pulmon at comcast.net Wed Aug 20 18:38:53 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 21:38:53 -0400 Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030820161712.05607e80@shell.visi.com> Message-ID: <38E7EC4C-D378-11D7-85C5-0003938F1608@comcast.net> Something like, "As my Wimsey takes me?" On Wednesday, August 20, 2003, at 05:18 PM, Beth Friedman wrote: > In our previous episode at 04:00 PM 8/20/03, Steven Brust wrote: >> At 11:02 AM 8/19/2003 -0500, pddb at demesne.com wrote: >>> On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 01:26:06AM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: >>> > Mark? Pamela? Can he say that? >>> >>> Sure, as long as he's being whimsical about it. >> >> Okay, I can accept that. >> >> Has it occurred to you lately what a perfect, and perfectly wonderful >> word "whimsical" is? > > Might even make a good word to use in one's family motto. > > -- > Beth Friedman / bjf at wavefront.com > There are 10 types of people in the world; those who understand > binary, and those who don't. > From pulmon at comcast.net Wed Aug 20 18:40:17 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 21:40:17 -0400 Subject: House Animals In-Reply-To: <20030820212603.GB1829@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <6AFB9D60-D378-11D7-85C5-0003938F1608@comcast.net> Actually it is UC Santa Cruz, and the banana slug is the school mascot. Ken On Wednesday, August 20, 2003, at 05:26 PM, Steve Simmons wrote: > On Wed, Aug 20, 2003 at 04:03:14PM -0500, Johne Cook wrote: >> Say it ain't so! (Well, there goes *that* mascot option. So much >> for the >> St. Louis Tsalmoth...) > > Somewhere in Washington state there is a football team named the Banana > Slugs. > -- > "People tend to hit me." -- Mike Wayne, late 1989 > From pulmon at comcast.net Wed Aug 20 18:44:04 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 21:44:04 -0400 Subject: Traffic to Deathgate (was: Re: Lord of Castle Black In-Reply-To: <20030820222255.GF5052@ofb.net> Message-ID: Every one that I have visited (and I have visited a fair number). They are not in the same rooms as the bodies, however, as that would violate a variety of health (as well as taste) standards. Ken On Wednesday, August 20, 2003, at 06:22 PM, Damien Sullivan wrote: >> Regardless of the frequency of traffic, it does seem odd to me that >> there are no roads, post stations, or villages with inns for the >> majority of the last leg of the jounrey to Deathgate. Presumably, > > Villages wouldn't want to settle there, perhaps. And inns do need some > frequency of traffic to survive. > > How many morgues have vending machines? > > -xx- Damien X-) > From greyw01f at hotmail.com Wed Aug 20 20:28:35 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 03:28:35 +0000 Subject: Tolkien Elves vs. Tolkien Men Message-ID: without getting too much into Tolkien, I can tell you for certain that elves and humans in Ea are pretty much the same height. I once was in an argument wherein I argued that elves were taller than humans. It was proven through textev that I was wrong, wrong, wrong. I don't forget these things. :/ I think it's in silmarillion somewhere, but I couldn't tell you for sure Jon _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From greyw01f at hotmail.com Wed Aug 20 20:45:00 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 03:45:00 +0000 Subject: Dragaeran Age Message-ID: That Dragaerans didn't evolve only reinforces my point, if you think about it. Jon
 
_________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From pulmon at comcast.net Wed Aug 20 20:43:53 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 23:43:53 -0400 Subject: [OT] Re: Pretty or Cool Words? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030820120140.00ac0448@camail2.harvard.edu> Message-ID: Not a neologism, but I like "Bowdlerize". Also, to describe a woman, "spathic" and sesquipedalian, which is pure onomatopoeia. On Wednesday, August 20, 2003, at 12:29 PM, charles_sumner at harvard.edu wrote: > At 04:35 PM 8/19/2003 -0700, you wrote: >> Anyone else have any cool or interesting words they like? > > My favorite neologism (new word) is retronym. > > Retronym is the term for an existing word or figure of speech which > has been modified to distinguish itself from a newer variant (usually > due to technological advances). The best known examples of retronyms > are acoustic guitar, analog watch, and manual typewriter. Those items > were previously just called guitars, watches, and typewriters until > the new versions came along and people needed to call the older items > something new to differentiate them from the new items. > > And I'm fond of a neologism that I made up: Triskember > > Triskember is the mythical thirteenth month which, like tomorrow, > never actually arrives. It's when my projects will actually be be > completed. And for the linguists in the audience... Yes, I know that > December would be "10th month" and is from Latin roots meaning that > the mythical next month should be Undecember (or Tredecember for 13), > but that doesn't sound nearly as cool as Triskember and it's not my > fault that the month names and numbering systems aren't aligned. > > > Charley Sumner charles_sumner at harvard.edu > > An open mind is one thing, letting geese > run around in there is completely different. > From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Thu Aug 21 00:01:35 2003 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 00:01:35 -0700 Subject: Tolkien Elves vs. Tolkien Men Message-ID: <200308210001.AA3167682880@amish2000.com> >without getting too much into Tolkien, I can tell you for certain that elves >and humans in Ea are pretty much the same height. I once was in an argument >wherein I argued that elves were taller than humans. It was proven through >textev that I was wrong, wrong, wrong. I don't forget these things. :/ Ergh. Well, you've got the exceptions. Thingol, f'rinstance, was somewhere in the area of eight feet and change, but perhaps that was only because he was SPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEcial. For the most part, the difference between Elves and Men wasn't really heightwise. Unless one counts Eldarin wings. I believe it is in _Unfinished Tales_ where it is pointed out that Galadriel and Celeborn, both considered heighty types among both Elves and Men, were six foot four. ? MJ From davids at kithrup.com Wed Aug 20 23:14:46 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 23:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Several Interview Questions for Sethra Lavode Message-ID: [ Feel free to add on a few ] Milady Lavode, we are, as you perceive, not from the Empire, and we have very little knowledge of the nature of the Dragaeran Empire except from what we have read in certain histories which have been passed on to us. We therefore hope that you will kindly deign to answer a few questions, which if answered, we assure you, will not be repeated in the Empire if you do not wish it. () What is your considered opinion of the historian Paarfi of Roundwood? What do you think of his reliability? () Have you ever been outside of the Empire? () Is Dzur Mountain artificial, besides the left ear? () We understand that you have recently had encounters with Jenoine twice in very recent times. Have you had any such encounters previously? If so, how many? Do you feel that the two recent incursions indicate that the Jenoine are increasing their efforts against the Empire more than they have in the past? () What is your opinion on whether the Empire should expand into the East? What are the various factors involved? () Do you really transform those who come to attack you on Dzur Mountain? And if so, into what? And, we are compelled to ask - why? () Some of the rumors that have reached us is that you have a certain amount of knowledge of the science of life-states. Is it possible for a person to become undead without the intervention of the gods? Are there any advantages to being in this state (besides the obvious one of being able to continue operating in this current plane of existence)? [ It occurs to me that we might perhaps get responses for the above questions from an interview with the Necromancer ] () The histories we have read appear to imply that the Lavode Scandal was simply the discovery that you yourself are in that state which is called undead. Is this correct? Do you feel that the ban on the undead from holding offices in the Empire is in any way justified? If not, have you ever considered campaigning to have the ban lifted? From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Thu Aug 21 02:02:56 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:02:56 -0700 Subject: Lord of Castle Black In-Reply-To: <200308201556.LAA13217796@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <006001c366a5$571903c0$6601a8c0@attbi.com> <200308201556.LAA13217796@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 11:56:31 -0400 (EDT), you wrote: > > >Spoiler space inserted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Loved all of it until the end. >> >> I don't care what careful plot twist is necessary in order to have Piro be >> in the company of bandits for the next book. There is no way that the son >> of Khaavren could turn against his own character, his friend the Empress, >> the dignity of the respected personages he had encountered, and turn bandit >> just because he had too few funds and his father wouldn't let him marry the >> dzur. > >He is young, male, in love, and thwarted in that love. Such persons are >not known for their exceedingly rational behaviour. He may well come to >regret his hastiness, but I find it a plausible course of action. > Indeed, I found it almost inevitable. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Thu Aug 21 02:04:14 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:04:14 -0700 Subject: Sethra and connections (spoilery for Agyar / TRiH) In-Reply-To: <20030820215550.GC5052@ofb.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030814162616.02459a88@mail.whiterose.org> <20030820215550.GC5052@ofb.net> Message-ID: <1n29kvgbpmldi25ng8mp7n42pnvu3jci4a@4ax.com> On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:55:50 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 04:26:24PM -0500, Greg Morrow wrote: > >> Much of the Taltos books can be read through an AD&D lens--Vlad is clearly >> an assassin, a character class in 1st edition AD&D, for example. Dragaerans >> are elves that are Tolkienesque in height, but are otherwise 1st ed. AD&D >> elves, with 2,000 year lifespans (not immortal), and (in Jhereg > >I know of no evidence that Tokien's elves were as tall as Dragaerans. They >may be described as "tall", but I've always taken that as meaning they're well >fed and in good health, vs. the short men of Bree with short genes anyway. >Tolkien never made clear how you can tell a Man from an Elf just by looking at >them, and I think men like Tuor occasionally confused people anyway, which >wouldn't happen if there were a two foot height difference. I think Elves >just look like really good looking humans, plus occasionally glowing a bit >especially if they're Noldor. > >I'll note that it's rare for 7 or 8 foot women to be considered beautiful by 6 >foot men... Depends on which Elves of Tolkien's we're talking about. I believe the Vanyar could reach heights of 8 foot. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Thu Aug 21 02:06:03 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:06:03 -0700 Subject: House Animals In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030820135327.01d52ec0@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030819012347.030c7940@localhost> <20030819030502.96363.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20030819012347.030c7940@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20030820135327.01d52ec0@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 13:54:25 -0700, you wrote: >At 01:30 AM 8/19/2003 -0700, lazarus wrote: >>On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:24:06 -0700, you wrote: >> >> >>Am I remembering correctly, that you described the tsalmoth as a giant >>land oyster? > >Actually, a six-foot diameter snail. > >However, I was not being entirely serious. > > Somehow, I don't find that surprising. :-) -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From catman12 at bigpond.com Thu Aug 21 04:54:00 2003 From: catman12 at bigpond.com (Andrew) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:54:00 +1000 Subject: Next Vlad Book (was: Dumas parallels...) Message-ID: <0HJY002U6X59BW@mta03ps.email.bigpond.com> You've definitely pointed out some quality points here. It lays the groundwork for some interesting future work by SB on that particular bit of criminal logic that says that "noone can get away with screwing with us". Its very topical, and relevant to current times, as this describes realworld gang & Mob warfare thinking perfectly. Time has always been the Jhereg's action of last resort. However, to repeat a saying, "anyone can be killed". It will prove interesting to find out just how far the Jhereg will be willing to push things. An interhouse war is one thing, taking on SL, sundy Gods is another thing altogether. " Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm." Greg Morrow wrote: >a) has a Great Weapon >b) has three buddies with Great Weapons >c) has someone who would revenge him who was part of the second-best >assassin team in the Jhereg and whose best friend is the Dragon Heir >d) has the favor of the Empress >e) has the favor of the Demon Goddess >f) is a favorite uncle of another goddess >g) is only going to live another fifty years even if he's not assassinated > >the Jhereg might be well be willing to temper their wrath. > >Could go either way. I figure SKZB is likely to come up with an >interesting solution.... >-- From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Thu Aug 21 05:42:27 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 08:42:27 -0400 Subject: Next Vlad Book (was: Dumas parallels...) In-Reply-To: <0HJY002U6X59BW@mta03ps.email.bigpond.com> References: <0HJY002U6X59BW@mta03ps.email.bigpond.com> Message-ID: <3F44BE33.2040501@earthlink.net> Andrew wrote: >You've definitely pointed out some quality points here. It lays the groundwork for some interesting future work by SB on that particular bit of criminal logic that says that "noone can get away with screwing with us". Its very topical, and relevant to current times, as this describes realworld gang & Mob warfare thinking perfectly. > > Time has always been the Jhereg's action of last resort. However, to repeat a saying, "anyone can be killed". It will prove interesting to find out just how far the Jhereg will be willing to push things. An interhouse war is one thing, taking on SL, sundy Gods is another thing altogether. > > Anyone can be killed, but the Jhereg want to do it Morganti. They're going to be really pissed off if some assassin succeeds in offing Vlad and Aliera just brings him right back. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Thu Aug 21 05:47:11 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 08:47:11 -0400 Subject: Several Interview Questions for Sethra Lavode In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F44BF4F.3050704@earthlink.net> Mild LoCB spoiler David Silberstein wrote: >() The histories we have read appear to imply that the Lavode > Scandal was simply the discovery that you yourself are in > that state which is called undead. Is this correct? > Do you feel that the ban on the undead from holding > offices in the Empire is in any way justified? > If not, have you ever considered campaigning to have the > ban lifted? > > Actually, I seem to recall that Zerika makes Sethra Lavode Warlord, so I guess the ban is not in effect at this point. I would check, but my book is in DC and I'm in Boston. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From dr.elmo at whiterose.org Thu Aug 21 07:21:04 2003 From: dr.elmo at whiterose.org (Greg Morrow) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:21:04 -0500 Subject: Several Interview Questions for Sethra Lavode In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030821091112.0220ae90@mail.whiterose.org> David Silberstein wondered aloud: >() Have you ever been outside of the Empire? We know that Sethra has visited the Paths, which are not within the Empire in most senses. () To what do you owe your remarkable longevity, even prior to your becoming ineligible for Imperial positions? () It has been alleged, albeit by an Easterner and hence unreliably, that Iceflame "embodies the power of Dzur Mountain". If true, in what sense? () What was Kieron really like? Was he really as cute as he seems in his portraits? -- "If I had thought about it, I wouldn't have done the experiment. The literature was full of examples that said you can't do this." --Spencer Silver on the work that led to the unique adhesives for Post-It notes. mailto:Dr.Elmo at whiterose.org http://www.whiterose.org/dr.elmo/blog/ From charles_sumner at harvard.edu Thu Aug 21 07:39:39 2003 From: charles_sumner at harvard.edu (charles_sumner at harvard.edu) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:39:39 -0400 Subject: Several Interview Questions for Sethra Lavode In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030821102636.00ac8da8@camail2.harvard.edu> At 11:14 PM 8/20/2003 -0700, David Silberstein wrote: > [ Feel free to add on a few ] Heck, she'd probably kill us for asking what's already there, so why not go all the way () How is it that the assassin known as Mario escaped Adron's disaster and what aliases is he currently using? () Have you met Devera? What can you tell us of her parentage? () How exactly did you become a vampire, and what is the nature of that vampirism? () What are the origins of your relationship with the Jenoine? () What happened to the tribes that were not included in the empire? Why weren't they part of the cycle? () Where does that strange box that the Easterner named Vlad Taltos occasional tells stories to come from? Charley Sumner charles_sumner at harvard.edu "Let's not jump to any conclusions." "I didn't jump. I took a tiny step, and there conclusions were." Buffy the Vampire Slayer - "Phases" From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Aug 21 07:49:07 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:49:07 -0500 Subject: Next Vlad Book (was: Dumas parallels...) In-Reply-To: <3F44BE33.2040501@earthlink.net> References: <0HJY002U6X59BW@mta03ps.email.bigpond.com> <3F44BE33.2040501@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20030821144907.GF21158@infodancer.org> On Thu, Aug 21, 2003 at 08:42:27AM -0400, Jose Marquez wrote: > Andrew wrote: > >You've definitely pointed out some quality points here. It lays the > >groundwork for some interesting future work by SB on that particular bit > >of criminal logic that says that "noone can get away with screwing with > >us". Its very topical, and relevant to current times, as this describes > >realworld gang & Mob warfare thinking perfectly. > > Time has always been the Jhereg's action of last resort. However, to > > repeat a saying, "anyone can be killed". It will prove interesting > > to find out just how far the Jhereg will be willing to push things. > > An interhouse war is one thing, taking on SL, sundy Gods is another > > thing altogether. > Anyone can be killed, but the Jhereg want to do it Morganti. They're > going to be really pissed off if some assassin succeeds in offing Vlad > and Aliera just brings him right back. Especially if the assassin does it Morganti and Aliera *still* brings him right back. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From alexx at TheWorld.com Thu Aug 21 09:17:50 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:17:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Next Vlad Book (was: Dumas parallels...) In-Reply-To: <200308202218.h7KMIuH06677@apocalypse.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> from "David Goldfarb" at Aug 20, 2003 03:18:56 PM Message-ID: <200308211617.MAA13176084@shell.TheWorld.com> > > From: Philip Hart > >I'm voting for Vlad killing everybody in his way until the Empress > >tells him to stop lest he unbalance society, whereupon he informs > >her that his GW makes him able to assassinate her despite the Orb's > >protection, after which he installs Kragar as the Council/Heir. > > This doesn't seem consistent with what we've read on the title > page of the Paarfi books, however. I believe that he was thinking of making Kragar the *Jhereg* heir, not the Dragon. Not that I think that any of the above scenario is actually likely. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx Everybody should regularly make a habit of reading things that they disagree with vehemently. It's part of keeping your mental pencils sharp. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Aug 21 09:52:45 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:52:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Signs of the Endtimes... (Fwd) Message-ID: <200308211652.h7LGqbI21980@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> I received this from another list I'm on and, considering all the discussions we've had here about words and their usage (I'm remembering "hopefully":), I thought some here might get a fright out of this.... Cheers, Chris (Don't kill the messenger) O. "If you can't live without me, die already." ~Cynthia Heimel ------------- Begin Forwarded Message ------------- It is truly the signs of the endtimes. The latest list of additions to the Oxford English Dictonary have just been released. Among them there is one that surly cannot be deemed anything but a sign that it is long past for the great old ones to rise up and devour humanity. Added to the dictionary this year is: Bootylicious Well, at least now I can properly create a modern day tale of horror and suspense and can properly use the word "Bootylicious" when describing the terror that haunts the night. "The Bootylicious Deep-One rises from the sea and begins its rampage to convert all of humanity." Someone stop the planet please... I want to get off... Greg Agostini ------------- End Forwarded Message ------------- From mr1 at rcosta.com Thu Aug 21 10:59:26 2003 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:59:26 -0400 Subject: OT: Signs of the Endtimes... (Fwd) In-Reply-To: <200308211652.h7LGqbI21980@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <3F44D03E.29064.FDB007@localhost> On 21 Aug 2003 at 9:52, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote > ------------- Begin Forwarded Message ------------- > > It is truly the signs of the endtimes. The latest list of > additions to the Oxford English Dictonary have just been released. > Among them there is one that surly cannot be deemed anything but a > sign that it is long past for the great old ones to rise up and devour > humanity. Added to the dictionary this year is: > > > Bootylicious "Bada Bing" also made the cut. Who chooses these words - and, to go all tangential, can "bada bing" even be considered a word? MMichele Riccio Law Offices of Richard M. Costa 18 Tremont Street, Suite 601 Boston, MA 02108 617-742-4444 x 115 From bio_phy at hotmail.com Thu Aug 21 11:04:00 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:04:00 -0500 Subject: OT: Signs of the Endtimes... (Fwd) Message-ID: If it absolutely *must* be a word, shouldn't it also assume the inclusion of "bada-boom"? johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ >From: "Michele Riccio" >Reply-To: "Michele Riccio" >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: OT: Signs of the Endtimes... (Fwd) >Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:59:26 -0400 > >On 21 Aug 2003 at 9:52, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote > > > ------------- Begin Forwarded Message ------------- > > > > It is truly the signs of the endtimes. The latest list of > > additions to the Oxford English Dictonary have just been released. > > Among them there is one that surly cannot be deemed anything but a > > sign that it is long past for the great old ones to rise up and devour > > humanity. Added to the dictionary this year is: > > > > > > Bootylicious > >"Bada Bing" also made the cut. Who chooses these words - and, to >go all tangential, can "bada bing" even be considered a word? > >MMichele Riccio _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Aug 21 11:08:46 2003 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:08:46 EDT Subject: OT: Signs of the Endtimes... (Fwd) Message-ID: <165.24250f50.2c7664ae@aol.com> In a message dated 08/21/2003 2:01:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mr1 at rcosta.com writes: > >On 21 Aug 2003 at 9:52, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote > > >> ------------- Begin Forwarded Message ------------- > > > >> It is truly the signs of the endtimes. The latest list of > > >additions to the Oxford English Dictonary have just been released. > > >Among them there is one that surly cannot be deemed anything but a > > >sign that it is long past for the great old ones to rise up and devour > > >humanity. Added to the dictionary this year is: > >> > > > > > > Bootylicious > > >"Bada Bing" also made the cut. Who chooses these words - and, to > >go all tangential, can "bada bing" even be considered a word? > > >MMichele Riccio My life is already a living hell. This just adds fuel to the fire. I think I'm going to listen to Pink Floyd's THE WALL in it's entirety and slash my wrists. You know what--- I wont even miss the list at this point. Oh the humanity of the bastardization of the English language! John D. Barbato, OD From mr1 at rcosta.com Thu Aug 21 11:19:45 2003 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:19:45 -0400 Subject: OT: Signs of the Endtimes... (Fwd) In-Reply-To: <165.24250f50.2c7664ae@aol.com> Message-ID: <3F44D501.6258.11049AA@localhost> On 21 Aug 2003 at 14:08, Randi128 at aol.com wrote > My life is already a living hell. This just adds fuel to the fire. I > think I'm going to listen to Pink Floyd's THE WALL in it's entirety > and slash my wrists. You know what--- I wont even miss the list at > this point. Oh the humanity of the bastardization of the English > language! > > John D. Barbato, OD > NO! Don't do that. You'll just be thinning the ranks of those of us who prefer to their words to marry formally before they have offspring. ;-) M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Thu Aug 21 11:29:01 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:29:01 -0400 Subject: OT: Signs of the Endtimes... (Fwd) In-Reply-To: <3F44D501.6258.11049AA@localhost> References: <3F44D501.6258.11049AA@localhost> Message-ID: <3F450F6D.8020704@earthlink.net> Michele Riccio wrote: >On 21 Aug 2003 at 14:08, Randi128 at aol.com wrote > > > >>My life is already a living hell. This just adds fuel to the fire. I >>think I'm going to listen to Pink Floyd's THE WALL in it's entirety >>and slash my wrists. You know what--- I wont even miss the list at >>this point. Oh the humanity of the bastardization of the English >>language! >> >>John D. Barbato, OD >> >> >> > >NO! Don't do that. You'll just be thinning the ranks of those of us >who prefer to their words to marry formally before they have >offspring. > > Would you recommend a shotgun wedding for Bada Bing and Bootylicious? Jose -- Jose Marquez \ I've never seen jhereg69 at earthlink.net \ an octopus this http://home.earthlink.net/~jhereg69 \ far inland... From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Aug 21 11:37:55 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:37:55 -0700 Subject: House Animals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030821113458.03074060@localhost> At 09:20 PM 8/20/2003 +0000, Steve Hubbell wrote: >>From: Steven Brust > >>>>At 08:05 PM 8/18/2003 -0700, Hans Schweitzer wrote: >>>>http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/treats/dzurlordintro.html >>>> >>>>That introduction was informative. >> >>Not, however, canonical, as far as I know. >OK, Is anything you wrote prior to 1987 positively canonical? Or is it >just things published in 1986, i.e. A Dream of Passion, Dzurlord >Introduction, and bits and pieces of Jhereg and Yendi? Well, not having established the canon, I don't think it's fair for me to say. I never said that bits and pieces of Jarhead and Yentil were not canonical. Myself, I tend to prefer to see artillery used to support infantry action, but it really depends on the technology of the field piece in question. From mr1 at rcosta.com Thu Aug 21 11:47:00 2003 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:47:00 -0400 Subject: OT: Signs of the Endtimes... (Fwd) In-Reply-To: <3F450F6D.8020704@earthlink.net> References: <3F44D501.6258.11049AA@localhost> Message-ID: <3F44DB64.12786.1293B4A@localhost> On 21 Aug 2003 at 14:29, Jose Marquez wrote > > > Would you recommend a shotgun wedding for Bada Bing and Bootylicious? > > Jose What would the Dragaeran equivalent be? A Morganti dagger? M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Aug 21 11:56:11 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:56:11 -0700 Subject: Several Interview Questions for Sethra Lavode In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030821115530.02efe2c0@localhost> At 11:14 PM 8/20/2003 -0700, David Silberstein wrote: > >() The histories we have read appear to imply that the Lavode > Scandal was simply the discovery that you yourself are in > that state which is called undead. Is this correct? I was just having a post-life crisis. From bio_phy at hotmail.com Thu Aug 21 12:12:32 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:12:32 -0500 Subject: House Animals Message-ID: >Myself, I tend to prefer to see artillery used to support infantry action, >but it really depends on the technology of the field piece in question. Canonical... I get it. ;) (btw, just finished LoCB. Am fresh out of decent reading material. Should probably get back to work on my storm fortress novel but Paarfi's voice is interfering with mine own and I need to exorcise the bastard before I can proceed with anything productive.) johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ _________________________________________________________________ Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From TimN at rcn.com Thu Aug 21 12:33:02 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:33:02 -0400 Subject: [no SPOILERS] nor anything to do with LOCB References: <20030817020630.GG7760@infodancer.org> <20030820230422.GJ5052@ofb.net> <20030821010152.GF2246@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <004601c3681b$111e25e0$d916fea9@ananda> Vlad's children WILL have an orb link unto the last generation, due to various events in _Phoenix_. "And all heirs of his body..." ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Simmons To: Damien Sullivan Cc: Dragaera List Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 9:01 PM Subject: Re: [no SPOILERS] nor anything to do with LOCB > On Wed, Aug 20, 2003 at 04:04:22PM -0700, Damien Sullivan wrote: > > > Note Paarfi happily answered the question of how links are usually passed on > > to children. Yay! > > Boy, I need to re-read those sections closely. If it really means that > the link is inherited if active in the parent, then Vlads children will > have it unto the last generation. > -- > "People tend to hit me." -- Mike Wayne, late 1989 From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Thu Aug 21 12:27:21 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:27:21 -0700 Subject: Several Interview Questions for Sethra Lavode In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030821115530.02efe2c0@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030821115530.02efe2c0@localhost> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:56:11 -0700, you wrote: >At 11:14 PM 8/20/2003 -0700, David Silberstein wrote: > >> >>() The histories we have read appear to imply that the Lavode >> Scandal was simply the discovery that you yourself are in >> that state which is called undead. Is this correct? > >I was just having a post-life crisis. > You, sir, are a very bad man. :-D -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From mr1 at rcosta.com Thu Aug 21 14:19:41 2003 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 17:19:41 -0400 Subject: OT: Signs of the Endtimes... (Fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3F44FF2D.14023.1B50B60@localhost> On 21 Aug 2003 at 13:04, Johne Cook wrote > If it absolutely *must* be a word, shouldn't it also assume the > inclusion of "bada-boom"? Not so much assume as believe... (from Yahoo News): LONDON (Reuters) - "Bada bing" -- the catchphrase made famous by hit television show "The Sopranos (news - Y! TV)" -- has earned a place alongside 3,000 other new entries in the latest edition of the Oxford Dictionary of English, published on Thursday. "Reality TV," "SARS (news - web sites)" and "Muggle," someone lacking magic powers from the "Harry Potter (news - web sites)" series of novels by author J.K. Rowling (news - web sites), have also been added to the tome, the largest one-volume dictionary of English, the book's publishers said. The Oxford dictionary describes "bada bing" (also "bada bing bada boom") as an exclamation to emphasize that something will happen effortlessly and predictably. The word is also the name of a strip club in the mob drama. Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Aug 21 14:38:42 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:38:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dragaeran Age In-Reply-To: <20030820231123.GK5052@ofb.net> References: <20030820231123.GK5052@ofb.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Aug 2003, Damien Sullivan wrote: > On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 09:40:49PM +0000, Jon Carey wrote: > > > > Evolutionarily speaking, the idea of a 30 year old baby is simply > > ridiculous. Anyone with a child knows that for the most part, infants are > > But Dragaerans didn't evolve. Of course they did. Directed evolution is still evolution. Ok, it's just barely possible that the Jenoine took human DNA, redesigned all the embryology and chemical pathways and whatnot in a computer simulation, built the standard Dragaeran houses from scratch, and gave them human culture, but I doubt it. Btw, the above argument re neotony is imho bunk - having children which are defenseless for the first years of their lives would strike most of the animal kingdom as ridiculous, if they got a vote, but evolution knows better. You can't say 10 years is fine but 30 isn't. From davids at kithrup.com Thu Aug 21 17:14:59 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 17:14:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Great Googley Moogley Message-ID: I've inspired the commission of doggerel. Steve Brust wrote in his weblog on Wed Aug 20th, 2003 4:38 PM: ] They try to disambigufy ] (Because they hate to ambiguate) ] The harm it'd do us were it ambiguous ] Makes us skewer each ambiguer. ] (And do no less to an ambiguess) ] Our tongue they sully most ambigufully ] So I'll take my station on ambiguification: ] "Do not slip into ambigumanship!" ] Only a pig would make an ambig ] For I'd rather die than ambigufy. Whimsical-shmimsical Ancient Seriloli Tries to elucidate Future and Past But only manages to Ambiguificate What happens when And the first that goes last From genji_77 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 22 10:15:09 2003 From: genji_77 at hotmail.com (Genji) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:15:09 -0700 Subject: [SPOILERS] _The Lord of Castle Black_ References: <20030803003459.GA863@infodancer.org> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Hunter" To: Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 5:35 PM Subject: [SPOILERS] _The Lord of Castle Black_ > Well. > > That was fun. > > [SPOILERS below] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * The comments of the Gods in _The Paths of the Dead_ regarding > Phoenixes come to mind, particularly how "two hidden can combine > to produce one visible". This seems a clear indication of a > recessive gene, which is by no means a surprise, yet for that > interpertation to apply we need have only one Phoenix (whose > descendents carry the recessive gene and eventually recombine to > produce a full Phoenix). If we take the words of the Gods as > reported (faithfully or otherwise) by Paarfi, then the presence > of two Phoenixes may be significant, or indeed required; and if > required we can surmise that both Zerika and Illista must survive > and bear children, their own genetic heritage to combine at some > future point and produce a full Phoenix. If this is the case, > then we can take as implied that Dragaerans and Easterners can > interbreed, which has interesting implications regarding Zerika, > Laslzo, and the prior speculation. > Or perhaps (admittedly a little far-fetched) this has something to do with the union of Piro and Ibronka which must somehow be significant to the story. I remembe r that Daro did not have clear house characteristics and easily fooled others about her house by wearing different colors. This also seems to be a pattern we see with phoenix(s). What if Piro and Ibronka both carry a recessive phoenix gene and as luck would have it produce a phoenix offspring. That is my really far fetched theory for today. hehehe Genji From greyw01f at hotmail.com Fri Aug 22 11:10:32 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:10:32 +0000 Subject: list volume Message-ID: Hopefully this isn't a double send, but I wanted to know if I've been receiving all the emails the list has been getting. Has it been really quiet lately, or is it just me? Jon
 
_________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Fri Aug 22 11:29:21 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:29:21 -0700 Subject: [no SPOILERS] nor anything to do with LOCB In-Reply-To: <004601c3681b$111e25e0$d916fea9@ananda> References: <20030817020630.GG7760@infodancer.org> <20030820230422.GJ5052@ofb.net> <20030821010152.GF2246@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <004601c3681b$111e25e0$d916fea9@ananda> Message-ID: <20030822182921.GA5640@ofb.net> > From: Steve Simmons > > Boy, I need to re-read those sections closely. If it really means that > > the link is inherited if active in the parent, then Vlads children will > > have it unto the last generation. > > -- spoilers Actually Paarfi said the link was passed from pregnant mother to fetus. So I don't think Vlad's children will have links because of Vlad. *Cawti*'s children will, and her daughter's children, and so on. Hmm, did Brigitta actually have a link, or was she part-demon? If the former, Cawti might have been born with a link herself, even before Jhereg title. Anyway, so what? So some Easterners inherit links. I wonder if Valabar's has a House. > Vlad's children WILL have an orb link unto the last generation, due to > various events in _Phoenix_. > > "And all heirs of his body..." But they might have to ask for the link explicitly, if he has children by a non-citizen. I'm not sure Phoenix changed anything; he already had a Jhereg title from his father. -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Fri Aug 22 11:32:35 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:32:35 -0700 Subject: Dragaeran Age In-Reply-To: References: <20030820231123.GK5052@ofb.net> Message-ID: <20030822183235.GB5640@ofb.net> On Thu, Aug 21, 2003 at 02:38:42PM -0700, Philip Hart wrote: > On Wed, 20 Aug 2003, Damien Sullivan wrote: > > > On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 09:40:49PM +0000, Jon Carey wrote: > > > > > > Evolutionarily speaking, the idea of a 30 year old baby is simply > > > ridiculous. Anyone with a child knows that for the most part, infants are > > > > But Dragaerans didn't evolve. > Ok, it's just barely possible that the Jenoine took human DNA, redesigned > all the embryology and chemical pathways and whatnot in a computer > simulation, built the standard Dragaeran houses from scratch, and gave > them human culture, but I doubt it. Actually that's what I've always assumed. > Btw, the above argument re neotony is imho bunk - having children which > are defenseless for the first years of their lives would strike most of > the animal kingdom as ridiculous, if they got a vote, but evolution knows > better. You can't say 10 years is fine but 30 isn't. Good point. -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Fri Aug 22 11:38:55 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:38:55 -0700 Subject: [SPOILERS] _The Lord of Castle Black_ In-Reply-To: References: <20030803003459.GA863@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20030822183855.GD5640@ofb.net> On Fri, Aug 22, 2003 at 10:15:09AM -0700, Genji wrote: > > From: "Matthew Hunter" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * The comments of the Gods in _The Paths of the Dead_ regarding > > Phoenixes come to mind, particularly how "two hidden can combine > > to produce one visible". This seems a clear indication of a > > recessive gene, which is by no means a surprise, yet for that > > required we can surmise that both Zerika and Illista must survive > > and bear children, their own genetic heritage to combine at some > > future point and produce a full Phoenix. If this is the case, > > then we can take as implied that Dragaerans and Easterners can > > interbreed, which has interesting implications regarding Zerika, > > Laslzo, and the prior speculation. > > > seems to be a pattern we see with phoenix(s). What if Piro and Ibronka both > carry a recessive phoenix gene and as luck would have it produce a phoenix > offspring. That is my really far fetched theory for today. hehehe Or Phoenix genes could already be running around House Jhereg, and before the next Phoenix reign the phoenix will fly over some house where a Left Hander is giving birth, much to the surprise of literally everyone. Statistically two Jhereg giving birth to a full Phoenix would probably take a nudge from the gods/Cycle/phoenix/Arisians, but that's no problem. -xx- Damien X-) From mr1 at rcosta.com Fri Aug 22 11:38:05 2003 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:38:05 -0400 Subject: list volume In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3F462ACD.5780.121CE30@localhost> On 22 Aug 2003 at 18:10, Jon Carey wrote > Hopefully this isn't a double send, but I wanted to know if I've been > receiving all the emails the list has been getting. Has it been > really quiet lately, or is it just me? > > Jon I've only received four messages today, but I've been trying to catch up on the past week's worth, so it hasn't seemed that slow to me. M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Fri Aug 22 11:44:37 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:44:37 -0700 Subject: OT: Signs of the Endtimes... (Fwd) In-Reply-To: <165.24250f50.2c7664ae@aol.com> References: <165.24250f50.2c7664ae@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030822184437.GE5640@ofb.net> On Thu, Aug 21, 2003 at 02:08:46PM -0400, Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > My life is already a living hell. This just adds fuel to the fire. I think > I'm going to listen to Pink Floyd's THE WALL in it's entirety and slash my > wrists. You know what--- I wont even miss the list at this point. Oh the > humanity of the bastardization of the English language! "The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." --James D. Nicoll -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Fri Aug 22 11:45:54 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:45:54 -0700 Subject: Several Interview Questions for Sethra Lavode In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030821091112.0220ae90@mail.whiterose.org> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030821091112.0220ae90@mail.whiterose.org> Message-ID: <20030822184554.GF5640@ofb.net> On Thu, Aug 21, 2003 at 09:21:04AM -0500, Greg Morrow wrote: > David Silberstein wondered aloud: > >() Have you ever been outside of the Empire? > > We know that Sethra has visited the Paths, which are not within the Empire > in most senses. Plus she predates the Empire, so has thus lived in areas not legally part of the Empire. > () It has been alleged, albeit by an Easterner and hence unreliably, that > Iceflame "embodies the power of Dzur Mountain". If true, in what sense? Paarfi said something similar -- Iceflame being linked both to her and to Dzur Mountain, plus a line about Sethra and the mountain after that which I don't remember. -xx- Damien X-) From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Aug 22 11:46:33 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:46:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: list volume In-Reply-To: <3F462ACD.5780.121CE30@localhost> References: <3F462ACD.5780.121CE30@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Aug 2003, Michele Riccio wrote: > On 22 Aug 2003 at 18:10, Jon Carey wrote > > > Hopefully this isn't a double send, but I wanted to know if I've been > > receiving all the emails the list has been getting. Has it been > > really quiet lately, or is it just me? > > > > Jon > > I've only received four messages today, but I've been trying to catch > up on the past week's worth, so it hasn't seemed that slow to me. You missed the funny (if mean) response of nobody responding at all... From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Fri Aug 22 11:55:05 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:55:05 -0700 Subject: Lord of Castle Black In-Reply-To: References: <006001c366a5$571903c0$6601a8c0@attbi.com> <200308201556.LAA13217796@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <20030822185505.GG5640@ofb.net> > >Spoiler space inserted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the Blackwand issue: When Morrolan finally draws it, while everyone else cringes in horror Morrolan is described as feeling he's just met his future lover. And still have a pleasant link to it when he sheathes it. Based on the text, even if it's not fully awakened yet it's definitely not a normal Morganti. Vlad's dagger didn't link to him, it just seemed like a really powerful (grr) Morganti blade. On the "based on the text" issue: There's two possible schools of thought. One, inspired by the desire to believe what we read, is that what Paarfi writes is mostly to be trusted, unless contracted by something reliable by Vlad, or just outright implausible. We ignore implausibility of how Paarfi knows this stuff. The other, inspired by believing the text, or rather what Paarfi himself and his critics say about the text, as well by general skepticism, is that anything Paarfi says without an actual paper trail or quoted reference should be regarded as made up from scratch. Given that he's admitted to reading people's mail the paper trail might be wider than expected, but still, from this POV there is no need to reconcile what Paarfi writes about Blackwand with what we think we know about it and Great Weapons (which I think is much less than many have extrapolated from _Issola_) because Paarfi knows jack about Morrolan and Blackwand. Ditto the assassination of the Emperor, say -- given that he didn't say Zerika or Sethra told him how it happened, he knows nothing. The flipside of this is that saying Aliera had a thing with Mario seems so unlikely, not to mention unhealthy, that you figure he *has* to have evidence. Plus Brust has said that's correct. Unless Paarfi is reckless and happened to be right by accident. I do like the idea that Devera might be one of Paarfi's sources, though. -xx- Damien X-) From genji_77 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 22 12:12:47 2003 From: genji_77 at hotmail.com (Genji) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:12:47 -0700 Subject: A Mighty Thundering of LoCB Comments (No SPOILERS) References: <20030811230336.905.qmail@web12708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nathan Dilday" To: Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 4:03 PM Subject: Re: A Mighty Thundering of LoCB Comments (No SPOILERS) > > --- Steve Hubbell wrote: > > > > > > > > >From: Gaertk at aol.com on Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:16:27 > > -0400 > > > > > >Some criticisms: my copy wasn't glued cleanly, and > > there > > >were of course some typos (sorry, I didn't note > > where). I > > >did however note a couple places where the dialogue > > gets > > >somewhat confused, if not outright misattributed: > > pages 81 > > >and 336. > > > > > 1) My copy had the glue/binding problem as well... > > unnoticeable, except when > > reading... > > Oh, good, I feel somewhat better knowing I'm not the > only one with a shoddy copy. > > Be Seeing You, > > Nathan > Ditto .... even outside the book near the gold lettering Genji From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Fri Aug 22 12:51:25 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:51:25 -0700 Subject: list volume In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3vsckvspslc68r5al1c3v6fbrhk3lpip3r@4ax.com> On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:10:32 +0000, you wrote: > >Hopefully this isn't a double send, but I wanted to know if I've been >receiving all the emails the list has been getting. Has it been really >quiet lately, or is it just me? > Today was slow, just a few, but the last two days have had 17 posts and then well over 20 posts. It's actually been quite active the past week. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Fri Aug 22 12:54:57 2003 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:54:57 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) References: <20030819110259.A22052@gw.dd-b.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20030819012533.030c7d90@localhost> <5.1.0.14.0.20030819012533.030c7d90@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20030820161712.05607e80@shell.visi.com> Message-ID: <3F467511.1030307@comcast.net> Steven Brust (If I have my indentations right) said: > Might even make a good word to use in one's family motto. > "As my Wimsey takes me!" Mia From genji_77 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 22 13:49:17 2003 From: genji_77 at hotmail.com (Genji) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:49:17 -0700 Subject: Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas) References: <3F3B1512.8070605@earthlink.net> <200308142011.QAA12298134@shell.TheWorld.com> <20030816010323.GA3841@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Simmons" To: "Alexx S Kay" Cc: "Dragaera Mailing List" Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 6:03 PM Subject: Re: Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas) > And real spoilers for ISSOLA. > > On Thu, Aug 14, 2003 at 04:11:33PM -0400, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > > Spoiler space, so I can stop talking around possible future spoiles. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, we have seen another case where a GW meets a bonded owner > without a soul being sacrificed. When Aliera obtains Pathfinder, > no such sacrifice, assembly, or reassembly occurs. Aliera picks up > Pathfinder and the bonding seems to be there immediately. > > To me, this argues both that the capture of a soul is *not* part of > the bonding process, but *may* be part of the assembly or re-assembly > process. > And clearly Morolan has a bonding with his "black wand" that continued even after it was sheathed and the likes of which we have never seen described with normal morganti weapons. This leads me to think that it is infact complete, but that he probably does not yet know how to fully communicate with it. Genji From genji_77 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 22 13:59:14 2003 From: genji_77 at hotmail.com (Genji) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:59:14 -0700 Subject: Great Weapons ( LoCB spoiler) References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Carey" To: Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 11:45 AM Subject: RE: Great Weapons ( LoCB spoiler) > > I mentioned in a private email that I meant to send to the list that I > wouldn't be surprised if Sethra gave Vlad the blood of the goddess knowing > it would formulate teh only possible way to get morrolan out of the paths. > > Jon > This was my understanding all along, with one addition. That Vera gave the blood to Setha (because Vera knows what will happen later) and lets Sethra in on enough of the details for her to get it to Vlad. Genji From genji_77 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 22 15:32:52 2003 From: genji_77 at hotmail.com (Genji) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:32:52 -0700 Subject: [SPOILERS] Dumas parallels and a wild theory References: <111.26f3b3d7.2c73deae@aol.com> <0qj5kvor6ejble1sq04gb5lkpa338ot2eb@4ax.com> <20030820024120.GA18037@infodancer.org> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- > >I don't think that score will be settled until Vlad takes THE >seat on the council[1] -- that is, the only one left after he >took all the others. >That could be a great couple/three books, Vlad hunting down all the >Council members. >Would quite likely be the perfect way to end the series. I can see it now ... "the final contract" ends up being Vlad taking out the top dog of the Jhereg council. :) Genji From genji_77 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 22 16:04:20 2003 From: genji_77 at hotmail.com (Genji) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:04:20 -0700 Subject: More on Mario the Mystery References: <200308202057.h7KKvVI05349@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Olson - SunPS" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 1:57 PM Subject: Re: More on Mario the Mystery > James Griffin, wrote: > > Sorry, It's DOLIVAR- ex-Dragon, ex-brother of Kieron > > See, that's why I dislike being away from books. > > Quite right, it was Dolivar. Now, I wonder if he changed > his name after they kicked him out? > > What? It was a nice theory while it lasted. All ten seconds > of it.... > > :0 > Chris > Or maybe, Noish-pa sends Vlad to find his true name as the next step to becoming a Warlock and our friendly coachman helps him to find it as Zungaron. :P From alexx at TheWorld.com Fri Aug 22 16:36:11 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 19:36:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Spoilers] LoCB Questions In-Reply-To: from "Genji" at Aug 22, 2003 10:58:07 AM Message-ID: <200308222336.TAA13587807@shell.TheWorld.com> > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alexx S Kay" > To: "Jessica" > Cc: "Dragaera Mailing List" > Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 2:56 PM > Subject: Re: [Spoilers] LoCB Questions > > > > > > > > > > > S > > > P > > > O > > > I > > > L > > > E > > > R > > > > > > S > > > P > > > A > > > C > > > E > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does Grita know that she has a half-sister? > > > > Possibly, but it's hardly certain. She was busy looking for Aliera's > > soul when Ibronka was born, and was busy following Our Heroes for much > > of the time following. It is possible that she learned of it after > > hooking up with Kana (and Habil's) forces. They could certainly have > > revealed it to her, but probably only inadvertently (assuming they don't > > know Grita's origins). > > > woah, I totally missed this entirely ..... where is the referance made to > Ibronka being Grita's half sister? The references are subtle, but clear. Though never stated outright (IIRC), it is clear by implication that Grita (Greycat's daughter by a Dzur) *is*, in and of herself, the blackmail hold that Greycat held over Sennya, the Dzur heir (in FHYA). Sennya's meditations on page 154 of PotD would seem to be considering that unfortunate period, almost as if Paarfi were engaging in deliberate foreshadowing... Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx Your lack of planning does not constitute my emergency. [Seen on a Nancy Button, http://www.nancybuttons.com/] From genji_77 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 22 16:37:07 2003 From: genji_77 at hotmail.com (Genji) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:37:07 -0700 Subject: Next Vlad Book (was: Dumas parallels...) References: <0HJY002U6X59BW@mta03ps.email.bigpond.com> <3F44BE33.2040501@earthlink.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jose Marquez" To: "Dragaera" Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 5:42 AM Subject: Re: Next Vlad Book (was: Dumas parallels...) > > Anyone can be killed, but the Jhereg want to do it Morganti. They're > going to be really pissed off if some assassin succeeds in offing Vlad > and Aliera just brings him right back. > > Jose > *Fake* death possibility ... assassin take out Vlad with a Morganti blade ..... GS holds his souls .... Aliera and the Necromancer bring him back quietly. Search by the Jhereg is over. Not a very exciting possibility though. From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Aug 22 16:43:33 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 22 Aug 2003 18:43:33 -0500 Subject: list volume In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Jon Carey" writes: > Hopefully this isn't a double send, but I wanted to know if I've been > receiving all the emails the list has been getting. Has it been > really quiet lately, or is it just me? And easy way to check is to look in the web archive (start at , find the mailing lists, and there are archive links for each). -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera mailing lists: From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Aug 22 16:44:32 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 22 Aug 2003 18:44:32 -0500 Subject: [no SPOILERS] nor anything to do with LOCB In-Reply-To: <20030822182921.GA5640@ofb.net> References: <20030817020630.GG7760@infodancer.org> <20030820230422.GJ5052@ofb.net> <20030821010152.GF2246@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> <004601c3681b$111e25e0$d916fea9@ananda> <20030822182921.GA5640@ofb.net> Message-ID: Damien Sullivan writes: > > From: Steve Simmons > > > Boy, I need to re-read those sections closely. If it really means that > > > the link is inherited if active in the parent, then Vlads children will > > > have it unto the last generation. > > > -- > > spoilers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually Paarfi said the link was passed from pregnant mother to fetus. So I > don't think Vlad's children will have links because of Vlad. *Cawti*'s > children will, and her daughter's children, and so on. Hmm, did Brigitta > actually have a link, or was she part-demon? If the former, Cawti might have > been born with a link herself, even before Jhereg title. > > Anyway, so what? So some Easterners inherit links. Is it conceivable that Paarfi simply overlooked the question of Easterners who are citizens? -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera mailing lists: From kisc at insaneninjahero.com Fri Aug 22 17:47:16 2003 From: kisc at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:47:16 -0600 Subject: [no SPOILERS] nor anything to do with LOCB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > From: David Dyer-Bennet [mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net] > > Damien Sullivan writes: > > > > From: Steve Simmons > > > > Boy, I need to re-read those sections closely. If it > really means that > > > > the link is inherited if active in the parent, then Vlads > children will > > > > have it unto the last generation. > > > > -- > > > > spoilers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually Paarfi said the link was passed from pregnant mother > to fetus. So I > > don't think Vlad's children will have links because of Vlad. *Cawti*'s > > children will, and her daughter's children, and so on. Hmm, > did Brigitta > > actually have a link, or was she part-demon? If the former, > Cawti might have > > been born with a link herself, even before Jhereg title. > > > > Anyway, so what? So some Easterners inherit links. > > Is it conceivable that Paarfi simply overlooked the question of > Easterners who are citizens? Paarfi? Overlook something? The hell you say! Kisc From mtiller at ntlworld.com Sat Aug 23 01:37:46 2003 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 09:37:46 +0100 Subject: Several Interview Questions for Sethra Lavode In-Reply-To: <3F44BF4F.3050704@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000f01c36951$d72fb000$0101a8c0@sweetdrewydscc> -----Original Message----- From: Jose Marquez [mailto:jhereg69 at earthlink.net] Sent: 21 August 2003 13:47 To: Dragaera Subject: Re: Several Interview Questions for Sethra Lavode >Actually, I seem to recall that Zerika makes Sethra Lavode Warlord, so I >guess the ban is not in effect at this point. I would check, but my book >is in DC and I'm in Boston. Look, if Vlad can move a vial of God's blood from one plane of existence to another. I don't see why you can't teleport a simple book a few(?) hundred miles. :) From usagigoya at hotmail.com Sat Aug 23 11:27:10 2003 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 18:27:10 +0000 Subject: list volume Message-ID: Been a lot of problems around with a power grid going down and some virus trouble, anyways, connections to the internet have been erratic locally... >From: Philip Hart >To: Michele Riccio >CC: Dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: list volume >Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:46:33 -0700 (PDT) > > > >On Fri, 22 Aug 2003, Michele Riccio wrote: > > > On 22 Aug 2003 at 18:10, Jon Carey wrote > > > > > Hopefully this isn't a double send, but I wanted to know if I've been > > > receiving all the emails the list has been getting. Has it been > > > really quiet lately, or is it just me? > > > > > > Jon > > > > I've only received four messages today, but I've been trying to catch > > up on the past week's worth, so it hasn't seemed that slow to me. > >You missed the funny (if mean) response of nobody responding at all... _________________________________________________________________ Help protect your PC: Get a free online virus scan at McAfee.com. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From mam at theworld.com Sat Aug 23 12:29:23 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 15:29:23 -0400 Subject: Ambiguate and other created words (off-topic) In-Reply-To: <200308200033.h7K0XQB02285@pikachu.harvard.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Aug 2003, Richard Congdon wrote: #> > 12) Decafalon (n.): #> #> Isn't that changing three letters rather than one? #> # #Well, if you stretch it a bit, you could think of the f as being a phi that #replaced a theta. It is a greek word, after all. :) Yeah, but the second alpha's still an insertion. You have to start with decathlon ~~~ Any way you slice it, there's no vowel between the theta and the lambda in Greek or in written (and many people's spoken) English. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From davids at kithrup.com Sun Aug 24 19:19:11 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 19:19:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Brust, Vlad & Paarfi Message-ID: I found the following in an old e-mail I sent out. I was explaining to someone that the afterword to /Five Hundred Years After/ was Paarfi & Brust rather than Paarfi & Vlad, and I then commented that other combinations might be amusing to read as well: ] Brust and Vlad could get nasty real fast (or they might find they ] get along just fine because they'd gossip about how silly Paarfi can ] be). Or how about a 3-cornered interview/brawl - Vlad, Paarfi and ] Brust, all switching sides and ganging up on the odd one out? Although perhaps we should bring in Sethra Lavode, and/or Morrolan, and/or Aliera instead. Or in addition! Loads of fun possibilities. And you know, once Aliera got done dueling with (and killing (and revivifying)) Paarfi, I've a suspicion that Morrolan would step up and want to take *his* turn (considering some of the slighting remarks that Paarfi has made in his current work). Poor Paarfi. Just can't keep those snarky comments from creeping into his manuscript... From warlord at dragon.com Mon Aug 25 06:58:53 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:58:53 -0400 Subject: Catchup time. Message-ID: Ok, I've finished LOCB and have started reading the list again. I see the list has picked up some. Only 440 messages to go.... W Ahh my eyes! Zee beer goggles, zey do nothing. From usagigoya at hotmail.com Mon Aug 25 11:42:47 2003 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 18:42:47 +0000 Subject: A Dream of Passion Message-ID: Ok, who's the hard core collector with lots of money for something old and rare? I read an old posting from December 2000 concerning this and decided to see if it was still available... if it is the same one that I read about, it has gone down in price $115.00 over the last few years... I wish I could afford it for myself... This was from www.Abebooks.com 1. Brust, Steven / Zelazny, Roger / Freas, Frank Kelly Per Ardua Ad Astra : A Dream Of PAssion (Brust) / The Bands Of Titan (Zelazny) / A Freas Sample (Freas) Ad Astra, 1986. Signed by Author. .......Chapbook, stapled wraps, fine condition in original envelope which has some age=yellowing to the edges; signed By Brust, Zelazny and Freas; # 32 of 203 copies. Bookseller Inventory #10883 Price: US$ 235.00 (Convert Currency) Bookseller: Terry Nudds, Burlington, ON, Canada _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Mon Aug 25 16:40:24 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:40:24 -0400 Subject: See you at WorldCon in Toronto Message-ID: <20030825234023.GA2972@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> I'm heading off for WorldCon in Toronto. If you'd like to say Hi, drop by the Art Show and ask for me. The Other Steve -- "The reason we come up with new versions is not to fix bugs. It's absolutely not. It's the stupidest reason to buy a new version I ever heard." -- Bill Gates, 1995 interview in Focus Magazine (Germany) From smed51 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 18:29:53 2003 From: smed51 at yahoo.com (Smed) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 18:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Aerich Lives Message-ID: <20030826012953.89168.qmail@web13602.mail.yahoo.com> Delurking from the list...... I've been speculating about whether or not Tazendra, Pel and Aerich survive to Vlad's time. This evening I was reading LoCB for the second time and noticed something interesting. On page 111, Paarfi talks about the return of the Orb stating "To others, such as Aerich, this connection came, but a little more slowly: he reports that he knew at once what had happened.... Note the present tense: Aerich reports. This implies that Aerich is alive at the point that Paarfi wrote the story. -Smed .....Resuming Lurking status. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Aug 25 19:08:46 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 25 Aug 2003 21:08:46 -0500 Subject: Aerich Lives In-Reply-To: <20030826012953.89168.qmail@web13602.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030826012953.89168.qmail@web13602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Smed writes: > Delurking from the list...... Welcome! (but shouldn't that be *to* the list?) > I've been speculating about whether or not Tazendra, Pel and Aerich > survive to Vlad's time. This evening I was reading LoCB for the second > time and noticed something interesting. On page 111, Paarfi talks about > the return of the Orb stating "To others, such as Aerich, this > connection came, but a little more slowly: he reports that he knew at > once what had happened.... > > Note the present tense: Aerich reports. This implies that Aerich is > alive at the point that Paarfi wrote the story. I don't think so; I think it implies that Aerich was alive at the time that he "reported" -- and that report could have been a written letter that later came into Paarfi's hands. I don't think it tells us anything about Aerich's lifespan. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera mailing lists: From pddb at demesne.com Mon Aug 25 19:31:36 2003 From: pddb at demesne.com (pddb at demesne.com) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 21:31:36 -0500 Subject: Aerich Lives In-Reply-To: ; from dd-b@dd-b.net on Mon, Aug 25, 2003 at 09:08:46PM -0500 References: <20030826012953.89168.qmail@web13602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030825213136.A1373@gw.dd-b.net> On Mon, Aug 25, 2003 at 09:08:46PM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Smed writes: > > I've been speculating about whether or not Tazendra, Pel and Aerich > > survive to Vlad's time. This evening I was reading LoCB for the second > > time and noticed something interesting. On page 111, Paarfi talks about > > the return of the Orb stating "To others, such as Aerich, this > > connection came, but a little more slowly: he reports that he knew at > > once what had happened.... > > > > Note the present tense: Aerich reports. This implies that Aerich is > > alive at the point that Paarfi wrote the story. > > I don't think so; I think it implies that Aerich was alive at the time > that he "reported" -- and that report could have been a written letter > that later came into Paarfi's hands. I don't think it tells us > anything about Aerich's lifespan. I think you are correct. This is standard historical language -- one might say also, "Plutarch writes" or "Gibbon writes," or, for that matter, "Shakespeare writes," even though they are all dead. -- Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet (pddb at demesne.com) "I will open my heart to a blank page and interview the witnesses." John M. Ford, "Shared World" From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Aug 25 21:45:14 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 21:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Aerich Lives In-Reply-To: <20030825213136.A1373@gw.dd-b.net> References: <20030826012953.89168.qmail@web13602.mail.yahoo.com> <20030825213136.A1373@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 pddb at demesne.com wrote: > On Mon, Aug 25, 2003 at 09:08:46PM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > Smed writes: > > > Note the present tense: Aerich reports. This implies that Aerich is > > > alive at the point that Paarfi wrote the story. > > > > I don't think so; I think it implies that Aerich was alive at the time > > that he "reported" -- and that report could have been a written letter > > that later came into Paarfi's hands. I don't think it tells us > > anything about Aerich's lifespan. > > I think you are correct. > > This is standard historical language -- one might say also, "Plutarch > writes" or "Gibbon writes," or, for that matter, "Shakespeare writes," > even though they are all dead. On the other hand, the historical present is not typically used by Paarfi. I suspect this is the only possible instance. On the other hand, it would be hard to convince anyone on the basis of what could so easily be a misprint or -translation. Not on any hand, I wonder if Paarfi has read Thucydides, who says some useful things about his sources (e.g., Book 1.21-22). It seems to me vaguely possible that in the intros to what a perhaps invidious publisher refers to as the Khaavren "Romances", Paarfi (or the Dean of Pamlar U.) may or may not have in mind his earliest predecessor (taking Paarfi [as I do] to be rather reliable [except of course re the "Mario" coverup] - someone familiar with Herodotus will have to comment on the non-reliable possibility - I don't remember H. bothering much about these issues.) From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Aug 25 22:19:15 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 22:19:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Auden, Fenton re "gya", and a _TLoCB_ spoiler In-Reply-To: References: <20030826012953.89168.qmail@web13602.mail.yahoo.com> <20030825213136.A1373@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: Auden writes (in Twelve Songs): Dear, though the night is gone, Its dream still haunts to-day, That brought us to a room Cavernous, lofty as A railway terminus, And crowded in that gloom Were beds, and we in one In a far corner lay. Our whisper woke no clocks, We kissed and I was glad At everything you did, Indifferent to those Who sat with hostile eyes In pairs on every bed, Arms round each other's necks, Inert and vaguely sad. What hidden worm of guilt Or what malignant doubt Am I the victim of, That you, then, unabashed, Did what I never wished, Confessed another love; And I, submissive, felt Unwanted and went out. James Fenton comments (in _The Strength of Poetry_ [which is terrific]): Our pronouns have preserved a tact which allows Auden to write a poem in this way without specifying what sexes are involved. I don't know if this has been commented on yet, but at the end of _TLOCB_ Chapter 64, Grassfog and Iatha have a conversation about "the social niceties" and belonging. It occurs to me that while Grassfog is probably male (pg. 161), and at least one of Thong and Iatha is probably female (pg. 131), there's a fair chance that Grassfog and Iatha are a same-sex couple. And maybe we have met others who grammar veiled. vaguely topical p.s.: In the "way to ruin a compliment" dept., my new girlfriend said to me, "You're so much better in bed than my last boyfriend. I think he's probably actually gay." From alexx at TheWorld.com Tue Aug 26 06:55:39 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:55:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Auden, Fenton re "gya", and a _TLoCB_ spoiler In-Reply-To: from "Philip Hart" at Aug 25, 2003 10:19:15 PM Message-ID: <200308261355.JAA13877970@shell.TheWorld.com> > I don't know if this has been commented on yet, but at the end of > _TLOCB_ Chapter 64, Grassfog and Iatha have a conversation about > "the social niceties" and belonging. It occurs to me that while > Grassfog is probably male (pg. 161), and at least one of Thong > and Iatha is probably female (pg. 131), there's a fair chance that > Grassfog and Iatha are a same-sex couple. And maybe we have met > others who grammar veiled. Fascinating. I *had* taken that conversation to be about "reformed bandits will never *really* be accepted," but your reading makes better sense. Of course, they might just be a mixed-house couple, which would be, in some senses, simpler. But it wouldn't be as Cool, so by Brust's writing principles, I think there's a very good chance that you're correct. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx 'Stifle' is the only word which is an anagram of itself. [Seen on a Nancy Button, http://www.nancybuttons.com/] From rone at ennui.org Tue Aug 26 11:45:55 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (epicanthic folderol) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:45:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: morrolan on the cover Message-ID: <20030826184555.A4A4126C32@boredom.ennui.org> David Silberstein pointed out in May that, going by the picture on amazon.com, he looked like John Travolta, but upon receiving my copy, it's more like a cross between John Travolta and Christopher Lambert. rone here we are / born to be kings / we're the princes of dragaera... -- Imagine Garrison Keillor separating Humphrey Socialists from members of a rural militia during a basement political rally/Lutefisk boil in the basement of a small Lutheran church. - Matt Marchese , on politics in Wisconsin From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Aug 26 11:52:27 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: morrolan on the cover In-Reply-To: <20030826184555.A4A4126C32@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20030826184555.A4A4126C32@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 rone at ennui.org wrote: > David Silberstein pointed out in May that, going by the picture on > amazon.com, he looked like John Travolta, but upon receiving my copy, > it's more like a cross between John Travolta and Christopher Lambert. Does either JT or CL have a forehead made of Playdough and hair made of Tootsie Rolls? From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Aug 26 12:03:03 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 14:03:03 -0500 Subject: morrolan on the cover (very minor spoiler) In-Reply-To: <20030826184555.A4A4126C32@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20030826184555.A4A4126C32@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <20030826190303.GH16003@infodancer.org> On Tue, Aug 26, 2003 at 11:45:55AM -0700, epicanthic folderol wrote: > David Silberstein pointed out in May that, going by the picture on > amazon.com, he looked like John Travolta, but upon receiving my copy, > it's more like a cross between John Travolta and Christopher Lambert. I will admit that I was waiting for Morrolan to proclaim "There can be only ONE Count of Southmoor!" or the like. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From walshm at ipfw.edu Tue Aug 26 18:44:34 2003 From: walshm at ipfw.edu (Matthew Walsh) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:44:34 -0500 Subject: Two temporal peculiarities (mild Orca spoiler) Message-ID: Been doing some rereading, and I came across a couple of time-stream-alignment problems. Apologies if these have already been pointed out, discussed to death, etc. (1) In _Orca_, we have Kiera meeting briefly with Stony, then hurrying back to the Ugly Blue Cottage, arriving late that afternoon. There she finds Vlad, who tells her what he's been up to. His exploits include a run-in with Stony, leaving him (Stony) in no condition to meet with Kiera thereafter. The implication, though, is that a full night has passed between Vlad's arrival at the cottage after his adventure and his telling the story to Kiera. (2) In _Teckla_ or _Phoenix_, Vlad refers to 'one of Paarfi's "histories" '. (Scare-quotes his.) One of? "The Phoenix Guards" isn't published until the year 309 in Zerika's reign, which is something like 60-70 years after the action in the Vlad books. The implication from the introduction to FHYA is that, previous to TPG, Paarfi had only written one other book -- "Three Broken Strings" -- for popular consumption. And an entirely irrelevant observation: among the scenes that Vlad sees in Morrolan's Window in _Issola_ is an athyra-like bird falling to earth; did this make anyone else think of Ariel in _To Reign in Hell_? - - Matt - - From alexx at TheWorld.com Tue Aug 26 20:23:28 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:23:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Two temporal peculiarities (mild Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: from "Matthew Walsh" at Aug 26, 2003 08:44:34 PM Message-ID: <200308270323.XAA14145783@shell.TheWorld.com> > > Been doing some rereading, and I came across a couple of > time-stream-alignment problems. Apologies if these have already been > pointed out, discussed to death, etc. They have come up, but I wouldn't say they've been discussed quite "to death". > (1) In _Orca_, we have Kiera meeting briefly with Stony, then hurrying > back to the Ugly Blue Cottage, arriving late that afternoon. There she > finds Vlad, who tells her what he's been up to. His exploits include a > run-in with Stony, leaving him (Stony) in no condition to meet with > Kiera thereafter. The implication, though, is that a full night has > passed between Vlad's arrival at the cottage after his adventure and his > telling the story to Kiera. It's definitely an inconsistency. In my timeline, I dealt with it as follows: O, day 16 Shortisle's Office (O 159-168). Shorty's Advice (O 168-171). Vonnith Again (O 205-219). O, day 17 Back to Vlad (O 171-174). [Kiera says that after leaving Stony, she "hastened back", but she must be either lying or mistaken. After she saw Stony, there had to be time for Stony to be killed by Vlad, and for Savn to work on Loiosh "far into the night" (O 219). Thanks to allegro at innocent.com for pointing out this discrepancy.] > (2) In _Teckla_ or _Phoenix_, Vlad refers to 'one of Paarfi's > "histories" '. (Scare-quotes his.) One of? "The Phoenix Guards" isn't > published until the year 309 in Zerika's reign, which is something like > 60-70 years after the action in the Vlad books. The implication from > the introduction to FHYA is that, previous to TPG, Paarfi had only > written one other book -- "Three Broken Strings" -- for popular > consumption. There are varying opinions on this. My own is that the Paarfi reference was an in-joke insertion by Brust-the-translator, who had read at least one of Paarfi's books by that time, but had not yet realized that he might be able to sell english translations of them. Others prefer to believe that Paarfi's alleged histories were already more than a bit romanticized. Still others point out that the preface to FHYA was written by Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet, not SKZB, and should perhaps therefore be considered non-canonical. You are welcome to any of these beliefs, or to come up with a new one of your own. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "I do like the idea of the Talking Death doll. Says six different phrases: 'I am Death' 'One lifetime is all you get' 'I've got a job to do, and I do it' 'In the end there is me' 'Supercalifragilistic- expialidocious!' 'Gee, math is hard!' --Lance Smith From davids at kithrup.com Tue Aug 26 22:41:51 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 22:41:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Two temporal peculiarities (mild Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <200308270323.XAA14145783@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Aug 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: > >> (2) In _Teckla_ or _Phoenix_, Vlad refers to 'one of Paarfi's >> "histories" '. (Scare-quotes his.) One of? "The Phoenix Guards" isn't >> published until the year 309 in Zerika's reign, which is something like >> 60-70 years after the action in the Vlad books. The implication from >> the introduction to FHYA is that, previous to TPG, Paarfi had only >> written one other book -- "Three Broken Strings" -- for popular >> consumption. There's also some banter between Vlad and Kiera in /Orca/ - Vlad says: "You must be sure to permit me to be cut into pieces for you sometime", and Kiera says "Been reading Paarfi again?" >There are varying opinions on this. My own is that the Paarfi >reference was an in-joke insertion by Brust-the-translator, who had >read at least one of Paarfi's books by that time, but had not yet >realized that he might be able to sell english translations of them. >Others prefer to believe that Paarfi's alleged histories were already >more than a bit romanticized. Still others point out that the >preface to FHYA was written by Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet, not SKZB, and >should perhaps therefore be considered non-canonical. You are >welcome to any of these beliefs, or to come up with a new one of your >own. Well, I'll add in one more: Note that the dates in all of the books are when they were submitted to the Imperial Library. There exists the possibility that the books were published as popular works before this date; indeed, perhaps as many as 70 years previously (which puts it right into Vlad's time). Also /Phoenix Guards/ might have been published in 2 parts, allowing for the plurality noted. After all, we don't know how Dragaeran publishing works. From rone at ennui.org Tue Aug 26 22:43:12 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (roger n. tospott) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 22:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: morrolan on the cover In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030827054312.4E7B126C38@boredom.ennui.org> Philip Hart writes: On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 rone at ennui.org wrote: > David Silberstein pointed out in May that, going by the picture on > amazon.com, he looked like John Travolta, but upon receiving my copy, > it's more like a cross between John Travolta and Christopher Lambert. Does either JT or CL have a forehead made of Playdough and hair made of Tootsie Rolls? Travolta as a Psychlo or Lambert as the early Highlander definitely had dreaded hair. rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From rick at 404.978.org Wed Aug 27 04:59:03 2003 From: rick at 404.978.org (Rick Castello) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 07:59:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Two temporal peculiarities (no spoilers) In-Reply-To: References: <200308270323.XAA14145783@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <3484.192.168.1.1.1061985543.squirrel@404.978.org> > On Tue, 26 Aug 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: > Well, I'll add in one more: Note that the dates in all of the books are > when they were submitted to the Imperial Library. There exists the > possibility that the books were published as popular works before this > date; indeed, perhaps as many as 70 years previously (which puts it > right into Vlad's time). Also /Phoenix Guards/ might have been > published in 2 parts, allowing for the plurality noted. > > After all, we don't know how Dragaeran publishing works. Published in 17-part serial format, then compiled into larger published volumes? *grin* -Rick From mr1 at rcosta.com Wed Aug 27 08:31:07 2003 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:31:07 -0400 Subject: Two temporal peculiarities (mild Orca spoiler) Message-ID: <3F4C967B.20986.81FB05@localhost> On 26 Aug 2003 at 23:23, Alexx S Kay wrote > It's definitely an inconsistency. In my timeline, I dealt with it as > follows: > O, day 17 > Back to Vlad (O 171-174). [Kiera says that after leaving Stony, she > "hastened back", but she must be either lying or mistaken. After she > saw Stony, there had to be time for Stony to be killed by Vlad, and > for Savn to work on Loiosh "far into the night" (O 219). Thanks to > allegro at innocent.com for pointing out this discrepancy.] As my physiology professor used to say "define your terms". What does Kiera mean by 'hastened'? A race of people with a life expectancy of thousands of years might have a different perception of haste. M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From feaelin at kemenel.org Wed Aug 27 08:50:19 2003 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Iain E. Davis) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:50:19 -0500 Subject: Two temporal peculiarities (no spoilers) In-Reply-To: <3484.192.168.1.1.1061985543.squirrel@404.978.org> Message-ID: <003001c36cb2$ed08a0d0$6501a8c0@Khaavren> > From: Rick Castello [mailto:rick at 404.978.org] > > Published in 17-part serial format, then compiled into larger > published volumes? *grin* 34 part serial format in a magazine. :). Would be painful. With a monthly subscription, it drag out for two years. :) From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Aug 27 09:12:14 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:12:14 -0500 Subject: Two temporal peculiarities (no spoilers) In-Reply-To: <003001c36cb2$ed08a0d0$6501a8c0@Khaavren> References: <3484.192.168.1.1.1061985543.squirrel@404.978.org> <003001c36cb2$ed08a0d0$6501a8c0@Khaavren> Message-ID: <20030827161214.GB15779@infodancer.org> On Wed, Aug 27, 2003 at 10:50:19AM -0500, "Iain E. Davis" wrote: > > From: Rick Castello [mailto:rick at 404.978.org] > > Published in 17-part serial format, then compiled into larger > > published volumes? *grin* > 34 part serial format in a magazine. :). Would be painful. With a monthly > subscription, it drag out for two years. :) This would match how Dumas wrote the works in question, as I understand it. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From davids at kithrup.com Wed Aug 27 10:23:41 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:23:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Two temporal peculiarities (mild Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <3F4C967B.20986.81FB05@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Aug 2003, Michele Riccio wrote: >On 26 Aug 2003 at 23:23, Alexx S Kay wrote > > >> It's definitely an inconsistency. In my timeline, I dealt with it as >> follows: > >> O, day 17 >> Back to Vlad (O 171-174). [Kiera says that after leaving Stony, she >> "hastened back", but she must be either lying or mistaken. After she >> saw Stony, there had to be time for Stony to be killed by Vlad, and >> for Savn to work on Loiosh "far into the night" (O 219). Thanks to >> allegro at innocent.com for pointing out this discrepancy.] > >As my physiology professor used to say "define your terms". What >does Kiera mean by 'hastened'? A race of people with a life >expectancy of thousands of years might have a different perception >of haste. > Bah. I know of no definition of "hastened" which would cover a span of time of more than a *day*, wherein no part of the day's events are described. Unless, of course, she went by way of Verra's Halls or the Paths of the Dead, or similar time-warped location. From WyrmOuroboros at comcast.net Wed Aug 27 10:26:29 2003 From: WyrmOuroboros at comcast.net (WyrmOuroboros at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:26:29 +0000 Subject: Athyra-like bird Message-ID: > And an entirely irrelevant observation: among the scenes that Vlad sees > in Morrolan's Window in _Issola_ is an athyra-like bird falling to > earth; did this make anyone else think of Ariel in _To Reign in Hell_? > > - - Matt - - You know, I hadn't noticed this at the time, but now that you mention it, it could be. Especially since Mssr. Brust rather enjoys cross-references in his stories... From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Aug 27 10:47:34 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 27 Aug 2003 12:47:34 -0500 Subject: Two temporal peculiarities (mild Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David Silberstein writes: > On Wed, 27 Aug 2003, Michele Riccio wrote: > > >On 26 Aug 2003 at 23:23, Alexx S Kay wrote > > > > > >> It's definitely an inconsistency. In my timeline, I dealt with it as > >> follows: > > > >> O, day 17 > >> Back to Vlad (O 171-174). [Kiera says that after leaving Stony, she > >> "hastened back", but she must be either lying or mistaken. After she > >> saw Stony, there had to be time for Stony to be killed by Vlad, and > >> for Savn to work on Loiosh "far into the night" (O 219). Thanks to > >> allegro at innocent.com for pointing out this discrepancy.] > > > >As my physiology professor used to say "define your terms". What > >does Kiera mean by 'hastened'? A race of people with a life > >expectancy of thousands of years might have a different perception > >of haste. > > Bah. I know of no definition of "hastened" which would cover a span > of time of more than a *day*, wherein no part of the day's events are > described. Oh, people used to spend *months* "hastening" from one side of the world to the other. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera mailing lists: From TimN at rcn.com Wed Aug 27 11:13:52 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:13:52 -0400 Subject: Two temporal peculiarities (Orca spoiler) References: Message-ID: <002901c36cc6$f95dbbe0$d916fea9@ananda> Indeed. I'm also reminded that she may very well have been bustling about all day, as her alter-ego, taking care of business. As said esteemed personage is not a God, she must, of course, engage in activities in serial -- not parallel. It is also quite possible that she was engaged in activities she did not think proper to mention to either Cawti, Vlad, or "us"; or that she was looking into matters more, but the results became useless. - T ----- Original Message ----- From: David Dyer-Bennet To: Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 1:47 PM Subject: Re: Two temporal peculiarities (mild Orca spoiler) > Oh, people used to spend *months* "hastening" from one side of the > world to the other. > -- From mam at theworld.com Wed Aug 27 12:33:44 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:33:44 -0400 Subject: Taltos: Inconsistencies and imponderables. In-Reply-To: <200308160016.UAA12640132@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: #> #> The first time Vlad teleports to Castle Black, he notices the Overcast #> beneath him, and above, more of the same. OTOH, in Athyra, Rocza is #> able to fly through the Overcast in one breath. Which she holds. #> Because it's toxic. Seems to me Morrolan is a smart enough fellow not #> to fly his castle in the middle of a toxic smog cloud. # #Yet travelers in Viscount go though the Enclouding with no ill effects. #Hypothesis A) It's toxic to jheeg (small j), but not to any of the #species that call themselves human. #Hypothesis B) It's only toxic after prolonged exposure. Castle Black is #either usually *not* inside it, or has some sot of magical air-filter. Rocza holds her breath. We infer that it's toxic. Maybe she just thinks it is. What's the textev? (I'm AFB.) -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From usagigoya at hotmail.com Wed Aug 27 12:49:15 2003 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:49:15 +0000 Subject: Athyra-like bird Message-ID: Did Ariel fall to earth? I thought he was just blasted into nothingness... >From: WyrmOuroboros at comcast.net >To: >Subject: Re: Athyra-like bird >Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:26:29 +0000 > > > And an entirely irrelevant observation: among the scenes that Vlad sees > > in Morrolan's Window in _Issola_ is an athyra-like bird falling to > > earth; did this make anyone else think of Ariel in _To Reign in Hell_? > > > > - - Matt - - > >You know, I hadn't noticed this at the time, but now that you mention it, >it could be. Especially since Mssr. Brust rather enjoys cross-references >in his stories... _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup From brian.vanskyock at zimmer.com Wed Aug 27 12:57:09 2003 From: brian.vanskyock at zimmer.com (Brian Vanskyock) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:57:09 -0500 Subject: Athyra-like bird References: Message-ID: <3F4D0D15.3D3AB250@zimmer.com> ariel died? damn, another book I can forget about reading :) b Steve Hubbell wrote: > Did Ariel fall to earth? I thought he was just blasted into nothingness... > > >From: WyrmOuroboros at comcast.net > >To: > >Subject: Re: Athyra-like bird > >Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:26:29 +0000 > > > > > And an entirely irrelevant observation: among the scenes that Vlad sees > > > in Morrolan's Window in _Issola_ is an athyra-like bird falling to > > > earth; did this make anyone else think of Ariel in _To Reign in Hell_? > > > > > > - - Matt - - > > > >You know, I hadn't noticed this at the time, but now that you mention it, > >it could be. Especially since Mssr. Brust rather enjoys cross-references > >in his stories... > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup From usagigoya at hotmail.com Wed Aug 27 13:12:24 2003 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 20:12:24 +0000 Subject: Athyra-like bird Message-ID: Sorry, I should have put a spoiler warning since the book is only something like 19 (?) years old. (why do I suddenly feel so old?) >Brian Vanskyock -0500 wrote: > >ariel died? > >damn, another book I can forget about reading > > > >:) b _________________________________________________________________ Get MSN 8 and help protect your children with advanced parental controls. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental From brian.vanskyock at zimmer.com Wed Aug 27 13:40:23 2003 From: brian.vanskyock at zimmer.com (Brian Vanskyock) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:40:23 -0500 Subject: Athyra-like bird References: Message-ID: <3F4D1737.2977A8C6@zimmer.com> no worries, you are probably younger than me TRIH is still on my must read list. Steve Hubbell wrote: > Sorry, I should have put a spoiler warning since the book is only something > like 19 (?) years old. > (why do I suddenly feel so old?) > > >Brian Vanskyock >-0500 wrote: > > > >ariel died? > > > >damn, another book I can forget about reading > > > > > > > >:) b > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get MSN 8 and help protect your children with advanced parental controls. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental From davids at kithrup.com Wed Aug 27 13:45:57 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:45:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Taltos: Inconsistencies and imponderables. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Aug 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: > >#> >#> The first time Vlad teleports to Castle Black, he notices the Overcast >#> beneath him, and above, more of the same. OTOH, in Athyra, Rocza is >#> able to fly through the Overcast in one breath. Which she holds. >#> Because it's toxic. Seems to me Morrolan is a smart enough fellow not >#> to fly his castle in the middle of a toxic smog cloud. The Overcast doesn't appear to be particularly thick. Morrolan can simply keep his castle above the Overcast layer or below it. >#Yet travelers in Viscount go though the Enclouding with no ill effects. >#Hypothesis A) It's toxic to jheeg (small j), but not to any of the >#species that call themselves human. >#Hypothesis B) It's only toxic after prolonged exposure. Castle Black is >#either usually *not* inside it, or has some sot of magical air-filter. > >Rocza holds her breath. We infer that it's toxic. Maybe she just thinks >it is. What's the textev? (I'm AFB.) > Checking /Paths of the Dead/, I note that Piro notes an odd smell as he passes through the Enclouding. Perhaps Rocza finds the smell sufficiently offensive that she habitually holds her breath going through it, just as I do when driving over one of the local areas which are either near sloughs or swamplands at evening time, when the scent of decaying vegetable matter is rising in a particularly penetrating and odiferous manner. At no point that I see does the text state that actually breathing the overcast is known to be toxic. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Aug 27 14:22:50 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Athyra-like bird Message-ID: <200308272122.h7RLMgI14376@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > no worries, you are probably younger than me > > TRIH is still on my must read list. To Reign in Hell should be on *everyones* must-read list. It's that good. Chris (who just recently found out about another book in this "genre" called "I, Lucifer", and it must be bought...:) "So farewell hope, and with hope, farewell fear, Farewell remorse! All good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my Good" - John Milton - 'Paradise Lost' From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Aug 27 14:50:03 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:50:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Taltos: Inconsistencies and imponderables. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: (ahem - extra recipients snipped, not that _I_ care): On Wed, 27 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > > >On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > > >#> > >#> The first time Vlad teleports to Castle Black, he notices the Overcast > >#> beneath him, and above, more of the same. OTOH, in Athyra, Rocza is > >#> able to fly through the Overcast in one breath. Which she holds. > >#> Because it's toxic. Seems to me Morrolan is a smart enough fellow not > >#> to fly his castle in the middle of a toxic smog cloud. > > The Overcast doesn't appear to be particularly thick. Morrolan can > simply keep his castle above the Overcast layer or below it. As we know, Vlad's ear's don't pop when he teleports up to CB. M is smug on this point. I imagine that CB has an isolated atmosphere and could be in the Overcast without the guests noticing. I'm sure the air quality would be better than post-9/11 NYC, anyway; and presumably the Dragaeran version of the EPA could be strong-armed into saying Everything's Fine, Go Back To The Party. From Gaertk at aol.com Wed Aug 27 17:34:55 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 20:34:55 -0400 Subject: Worried About ... (LOCB Spoilers) Message-ID: <349BF36F.0CAE3D64.00048EA6@aol.com> First some bad news (and I really hate to be the bearer of such, but someone has to): I just saw the massmarket edition of POTD, and it still has a typo in the URL for Mark's webpage. So could someone please politely inform the nice folks at Tor so this can be fixed finally? Unrelated to Dragaera, but I also saw the 30th anniversary edition of _The Princess Bride_ (containing yet another introduction, the full text of the 25th ed., an interview with the chars (apparently done by someone other than Goldman) which I found predictable and lame, and questions for discussion groups (which were really lame)). [Is that really all one sentence?] Anyway, the new intro ends with a promise that the full version of _Buttercup's Baby_ (well, the full abridged version) will see print before the 35th anniversary edition does. My second thought on seeing that (my first was "Yay!") was to contemplate Goldman, and the way he's handling these things (like the reunion scene) and I realised that this is exactly the sort of thing he'd write if he was told he only had six months left to live. Which brings me to my subject.... These are SPOILERS, or I'm a Norska! I'm actually not as worried about Piro as before, since my earlier worries were due to the lack of any sort of mention of him in the Vlad books and turning bandit is a decent reason for that. I am worried about Tazendra, because if she were still alive, Paarfi's career would be much shorter (she's not known for leaving her victims revivifyable). Another one I'm worried about (whom no one else has mentioned yet) is Princess Sennya. We're told more than once that her only reason for living is her daughter, whom she just argued with. Given the nature of that arguement, and the fact they're both Dzur, I assume irrevokable words were said, and Sennya is probably not a happy camper right now. I imagine right now she's riding off to attack the largest armed group she can find (which would likely be whatever troop remain loyal to Kana). --KG From dusty at sayersnet.com Wed Aug 27 20:21:41 2003 From: dusty at sayersnet.com (J A 'Dusty' Sayers) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 23:21:41 -0400 Subject: Worried About ... (LOCB Spoilers) References: <349BF36F.0CAE3D64.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <3F4D7544.CF265EF@sayersnet.com> [items elided] > These > > are > > SPOILERS, > > or > > I'm > > a > > Norska! [items elided] > I am worried about Tazendra, because if she were still alive, > Paarfi's career would be much shorter (she's not known for > leaving her victims revivifyable). [items elided] I tend to agree with this one, which is sort of a shame, as Tazendra is probably my favourite character on Dragaera (assuming, perhaps wrongly, that we can call the planet--and perhaps associated, possibly extraplanetary or extra-planar, regions such as the Paths of the Dead and the Halls of Judgement--by the name Dragaera). Paarfi's panegyric on her trailblazing (but not often remembered) contributions to post-Interregnum sorcery (combined with the implication in Teckla that she met with some accident in her castle) makes me fear that if she does not die in the last volume of The Viscount of Adrilanka, she will at least die sometime before Paarfi writes that book. -- J A Dusty Sayers 'Plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery.' --original From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Aug 27 20:53:04 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 20:53:04 -0700 Subject: Two temporal peculiarities (mild Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030827205236.0319fec0@localhost> At 08:44 PM 8/26/2003 -0500, Matthew Walsh wrote: > >And an entirely irrelevant observation: among the scenes that Vlad sees >in Morrolan's Window in _Issola_ is an athyra-like bird falling to >earth; did this make anyone else think of Ariel in _To Reign in Hell_? Tee hee. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Aug 27 21:05:13 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:05:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Two temporal peculiarities (mild Orca spoiler) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030827205236.0319fec0@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030827205236.0319fec0@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Aug 2003, Steven Brust wrote: > At 08:44 PM 8/26/2003 -0500, Matthew Walsh wrote: > > > >And an entirely irrelevant observation: among the scenes that Vlad sees > >in Morrolan's Window in _Issola_ is an athyra-like bird falling to > >earth; did this make anyone else think of Ariel in _To Reign in Hell_? > > Tee hee. For the language mavens out there, does this represent a titter or a giggle or something even more sinister? From davids at kithrup.com Thu Aug 28 01:58:26 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 01:58:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Auden, Fenton re "gya", and a _TLoCB_ spoiler In-Reply-To: <200308261355.JAA13877970@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Aug 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > >> I don't know if this has been commented on yet, but at the end of >> _TLOCB_ Chapter 64, Grassfog and Iatha have a conversation about >> "the social niceties" and belonging. It occurs to me that while >> Grassfog is probably male (pg. 161), and at least one of Thong >> and Iatha is probably female (pg. 131), there's a fair chance that >> Grassfog and Iatha are a same-sex couple. And maybe we have met >> others who grammar veiled. > >Fascinating. I *had* taken that conversation to be about "reformed >bandits will never *really* be accepted," but your reading makes >better sense. Of course, they might just be a mixed-house couple, >which would be, in some senses, simpler. But it wouldn't be as Cool, >so by Brust's writing principles, I think there's a very good chance >that you're correct. > But you could also go back and check when Grassfog & Iatha are introduced, when they have slid down the ropes, and see that Grassfog is male and Iatha is female. So the are almost certainly just a mixed-house couple. Although -- I note that their Houses are not mentioned, or even guessed at. Perhaps they themselves are in fact the *offspring* of mixed house couples. As crossbreeds, they would definitely be personas non grata in the officially civilized parts of the Empire. From mam at theworld.com Thu Aug 28 07:25:43 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:25:43 -0400 Subject: [no SPOILERS] nor anything to do with LOCB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Aug 2003, Jon Carey wrote: #Easterners cannot join the Guard. Easterners and Dragaerans have a genetic #link, but whether that link is remote enough to cause sufficient special #(that's spee-see-el) differentiation, and therefore prevent cross-breeding #is unknown. Perhaps they may be able to cross-breed, but cannot produce #viable offspring, like Horses and Mules can produce Donkeys, which are #congenitally sterile. Bio correction: Horses and donkeys are natural species. When they crossbreed, the offspring is a mule, and is sterile. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Thu Aug 28 07:29:09 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:29:09 -0400 Subject: Orb to navigate In-Reply-To: <20030821005541.GD2246@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Aug 2003, Steve Simmons wrote: #On Sun, Aug 17, 2003 at 07:31:59PM -0500, Rachel L. Ruhlen wrote: # #> That explains how _Orca_ navigate. What about the pirates from Elde #> Island/Greenaere? They don't have the handy Orb link. # #If the Polynesians could do it over much larger distances, the Orca #can do it. Polynesians could see the stars. In and near the Dragaeran Empire, the Overcast (Enclouding, to Paarfi) blocks them out. That's (presumably) why the Serioli, who are native to the world and were there before the Overcast, call them "the small >>invisible<< lights". # Let's also note that Legend Has It that the various Dragaeran #tribes actually contain genetic material from the animal they're named #after. If orca can navigate at sea, Orca should be able to too. Now THAT I really like! -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website #*Gads*, I loved writing that last sentence. I can well imagine! :-) -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Thu Aug 28 07:34:37 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:34:37 -0400 Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Aug 2003, Philip Hart wrote: # # #On Tue, 19 Aug 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: # #> On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 11:35:12AM -0700, Philip Hart wrote: #> > Latin, gibberish, ... - I miss the good old days when this list used #> > English. #> #> Who are you kidding? English IS latin gibberish. # G G G/L G G G/L L ? G G L G* Where G = Germanic -- i.e., in all these cases, original English origin. Of "gibberish", OED Online says that it's from "gibber" + "-ish" (as a language name suffix, as in "English" ['of the Angles'], "Danish" and "Swedish"; it's G.), and that "gibber" is onomatopoeic, which means we can count it as G also. In other words, the only Latin word of Matthew's eight words is "latin" itself. He has created a self-disproving assertion. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From usagigoya at hotmail.com Thu Aug 28 11:10:43 2003 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:10:43 +0000 Subject: Worried About ... (LOCB Spoilers) Message-ID: >From: Gaertk at aol.com on Wed, 27 Aug 2003 20:34:55 -0400 > > > >These > > > > > >are > > > > > >SPOILERS, > > > > >or > > > > >I'm > > > > > >a > > > > >Norska! > > > >I'm actually not as worried about Piro as before, since my >earlier worries were due to the lack of any sort of mention >of him in the Vlad books and turning bandit is a decent >reason for that. Vlad spends something like three years making a living by being "robbed" by bandits, so maybe he has met Piro and Co. and maybe that encounter had something to do with great weights and parrying swords with an empty hand... _________________________________________________________________ Get MSN 8 and help protect your children with advanced parental controls. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Aug 28 11:30:04 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:30:04 -0500 Subject: Worried About ... (LOCB Spoilers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030828183004.GI20138@infodancer.org> On Thu, Aug 28, 2003 at 06:10:43PM +0000, Steve Hubbell wrote: > >From: Gaertk at aol.com on Wed, 27 Aug 2003 20:34:55 -0400 > > > > > > > >These > > > > > > > > > > > >are > > > > > > > > > > > >SPOILERS, > > > > > > > > > >or > > > > > > > > > >I'm > > > > > > > > > > > >a > > > > > > > > > >Norska! > > > > > > > >I'm actually not as worried about Piro as before, since my > >earlier worries were due to the lack of any sort of mention > >of him in the Vlad books and turning bandit is a decent > >reason for that. > Vlad spends something like three years making a living by being "robbed" by > bandits, so maybe he has met Piro and Co. and maybe that encounter had > something to do with great weights and parrying swords with an empty hand... I'm starting to think that maybe he just did something to offend Loiosh. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Aug 28 12:34:38 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Auden, Fenton re "gya", and a _TLoCB_ spoiler In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > On Tue, 26 Aug 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > > > > > >> I don't know if this has been commented on yet, but at the end of > >> _TLOCB_ Chapter 64, Grassfog and Iatha have a conversation about > >> "the social niceties" and belonging. It occurs to me that while > >> Grassfog is probably male (pg. 161), and at least one of Thong > >> and Iatha is probably female (pg. 131), there's a fair chance that > >> Grassfog and Iatha are a same-sex couple. And maybe we have met > >> others who grammar veiled. > > > >Fascinating. I *had* taken that conversation to be about "reformed > >bandits will never *really* be accepted," but your reading makes > >better sense. Of course, they might just be a mixed-house couple, > >which would be, in some senses, simpler. But it wouldn't be as Cool, > >so by Brust's writing principles, I think there's a very good chance > >that you're correct. > > > > But you could also go back and check when Grassfog & Iatha are > introduced, when they have slid down the ropes, and see that Grassfog > is male and Iatha is female. So the are almost certainly just a > mixed-house couple. Nice try to kill my beautiful theory with an inconvenient fact, David - but you've failed miserably (I hope). Piro's band includes Grassfog, Iatha, Ritt, and Belly. The last two could be a gay couple. And the first two could come, not just from the same House, but from the same house, if you catch my drift... From feaelin at kemenel.org Thu Aug 28 13:17:54 2003 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Iain E. Davis) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:17:54 -0500 Subject: Orb to navigate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003001c36da1$76c59b90$6501a8c0@Khaavren> > From: Mark A Mandel [mailto:mam at theworld.com] > If orca can navigate at sea, > Orca should be able to too. > > Now THAT I really like! How do orca (from that universe) navigate? For that matter, how do orca >from our universe navigate? From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Aug 28 13:51:44 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:51:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Orb to navigate In-Reply-To: <003001c36da1$76c59b90$6501a8c0@Khaavren> References: <003001c36da1$76c59b90$6501a8c0@Khaavren> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Aug 2003, Iain E. Davis wrote: > > How do orca (from that universe) navigate? For that matter, how do orca > from our universe navigate? Triangulation, of course. A shark has an extremely acute sense of smell and can calculate the distance to landmarks (e.g., the site where something died) and common ocean currents or where rivers run into the sea. Recently there are of course ocean-floor cables to follow but those haven't made it to Dragaera yet. From dr.elmo at whiterose.org Thu Aug 28 13:54:00 2003 From: dr.elmo at whiterose.org (Greg Morrow) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:54:00 -0500 Subject: Orb to navigate Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030828155355.02469da0@mail.whiterose.org> Iain E. Davis wondered aloud: >How do orca (from that universe) navigate? For that matter, how do orca >from our universe navigate? In our universe, orca are darn smart. They navigate using sight and sound, by wind and current, and, some think, by the stars. There is at least some indication that some whales can follow magnetic lines--the locations of mass and repeated strandings tend to be where magnetic field contours are perpendicular to the shore. -- "Wendy 2099: Wendy the Bad Little Witch. Wendy as you've never seen her before! Plenty of spandex and action! Look for the Cry for Dawn crossover." --Lance Smith mailto:Dr.Elmo at whiterose.org http://www.whiterose.org/dr.elmo/blog/ From feaelin at kemenel.org Thu Aug 28 13:56:24 2003 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Iain E. Davis) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:56:24 -0500 Subject: Orb to navigate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c36da6$d88772e0$6501a8c0@Khaavren> > From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU] > On Thu, 28 Aug 2003, Iain E. Davis wrote: > > > > How do orca (from that universe) navigate? For that matter, how do > > orca from our universe navigate? > > Triangulation, of course. A shark has an extremely acute > sense of smell and can calculate the distance to landmarks > (e.g., the site where something died) and common ocean > currents or where rivers run into the sea. Recently there > are of course ocean-floor cables to follow but those haven't > made it to Dragaera yet. Very cool. I learned something today! The day is not a total loss. ;) I wonder if Orca have that sense of smell, or some other sense useful for navigation. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Aug 28 14:12:45 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 14:12:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Orb to navigate In-Reply-To: <000001c36da6$d88772e0$6501a8c0@Khaavren> References: <000001c36da6$d88772e0$6501a8c0@Khaavren> Message-ID: Danger! Danger! You did not learn something from me. Please refer to Greg Morrow's post for information that (I assume) he didn't make up in a whimsical mood. On Thu, 28 Aug 2003, Iain E. Davis wrote: > > From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU] > > > On Thu, 28 Aug 2003, Iain E. Davis wrote: > > > > > > How do orca (from that universe) navigate? For that matter, how do > > > orca from our universe navigate? > > > > Triangulation, of course. A shark has an extremely acute > > sense of smell and can calculate the distance to landmarks > > (e.g., the site where something died) and common ocean > > currents or where rivers run into the sea. Recently there > > are of course ocean-floor cables to follow but those haven't > > made it to Dragaera yet. > > Very cool. I learned something today! The day is not a total loss. ;) > > I wonder if Orca have that sense of smell, or some other sense useful for > navigation. > > From davids at kithrup.com Thu Aug 28 23:47:33 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Worried About ... (LOCB Spoilers) In-Reply-To: <349BF36F.0CAE3D64.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > > >These > > > > > >are > > > > > >SPOILERS, > > > > >or > > > > >I'm > > > > > >a > > > > >Norska! > > > >I'm actually not as worried about Piro as before, since my >earlier worries were due to the lack of any sort of mention >of him in the Vlad books and turning bandit is a decent >reason for that. I think there is reason to worry about both Piro & Kytraan (as well as Tazendra). I have been thinking about Morrolan and Blackwand. I have had the notion that just because Blackwand is female does not mean that she has the soul of Tazendra. Another possibility is that Blackwand has her own soul, unrelated to those of our current Dramatis Personae, but that once she has killed/absorbed another soul, Morrolan can access (some of) the memories of that soul. So. First of all, consider who was in the party escorting Zerika. Second of all, consider whose lands certain persons have decided to take up banditry on/near... >I am worried about Tazendra, because if she were still alive, >Paarfi's career would be much shorter (she's not known for >leaving her victims revivifyable). Bah. There aren't enough of him to make it worthwhile. You have more reason to worry because Sethra Lavode, who has no reason to lie, has told Vlad that there are no other Lavodes. The speculation that the "'he' that isn't ready yet" is a gender confusion ("gya") for Tazendra, is, I think, utterly mistaken. Tazendra was referred to a couple of hundred years previously as being a full Lavode; were she still alive, I don't think she would be called "a Lavode that isn't ready yet". >Another one I'm worried about (whom no one else has mentioned >yet) is Princess Sennya. We're told more than once that her >only reason for living is her daughter, whom she just argued >with. On top of everything else, her status as "Princess" may be in jeopardy. Her daughter has acted in such an un-Dzur-like and unheroic manner - not only does she want to marry a non-Dzur, but worse and worse, she took part in a many-against-one armed theft from an unarmed Chreotha - that she might be disallowed as the Heir, and Ibronka might possibly even kicked out of the House. Oy, the shandeh! From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Aug 28 23:51:07 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 01:51:07 -0500 Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030829065107.GH25161@infodancer.org> On Thu, Aug 28, 2003 at 10:34:37AM -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Tue, 19 Aug 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > #On Tue, 19 Aug 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: > #> On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 11:35:12AM -0700, Philip Hart wrote: > #> > Latin, gibberish, ... - I miss the good old days when this list used > #> > English. > #> Who are you kidding? English IS latin gibberish. > # G G G/L G G G/L L ? > G G L G* > Where G = Germanic -- i.e., in all these cases, original English origin. > Of "gibberish", OED Online says that it's from "gibber" + "-ish" (as a > language name suffix, as in "English" ['of the Angles'], "Danish" and > "Swedish"; it's G.), and that "gibber" is onomatopoeic, which means we > can count it as G also. > In other words, the only Latin word of Matthew's eight words is "latin" > itself. He has created a self-disproving assertion. Beautiful, wasn't it? -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From davids at kithrup.com Fri Aug 29 00:51:12 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 00:51:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Auden, Fenton re "gya", and a _TLoCB_ spoiler In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Aug 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >On Thu, 28 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > >> >> > >> > >> >> I don't know if this has been commented on yet, but at the end of >> >> _TLOCB_ Chapter 64, Grassfog and Iatha have a conversation about >> >> "the social niceties" and belonging. It occurs to me that while >> >> Grassfog is probably male (pg. 161), and at least one of Thong >> >> and Iatha is probably female (pg. 131), there's a fair chance that >> >> Grassfog and Iatha are a same-sex couple. >> > > >> But you could also go back and check when Grassfog & Iatha are >> introduced, when they have slid down the ropes, and see that Grassfog >> is male and Iatha is female. So they are almost certainly just a >> mixed-house couple. > >Nice try to kill my beautiful theory with an inconvenient fact, David >- but you've failed miserably (I hope). You might take into consideration the possiblity of constructing your theories on a somewhat more solid foundation, as the Vallista might say, and to continue the metaphor somewhat, using materials that have a certain weight and heft to them, and using structual designs that layer said materials one upon the other in the approved fashion. Not that I've ever let that stop *me*, but nevertheless. > Piro's band includes Grassfog, Iatha, Ritt, and Belly. The last >two could be a gay couple. Bah! And one might secretly be Mario, and the other the reincarnation of Empress Undauntra. On what basis do you pretend that that particular notion is even vaguely related to anything remotely resembling contextual fact? > > And the first two could come, not just from the same House, but >from the same house, if you catch my drift... > I must again ask from where you think this to be even slightly probable given the evidence we actually in point of fact have to work with? From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Aug 29 05:36:58 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 05:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Auden, Fenton re "gya", and a _TLoCB_ spoiler In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > On Thu, 28 Aug 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > >On Thu, 28 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > > > >> > >> >> I don't know if this has been commented on yet, but at the end of > >> >> _TLOCB_ Chapter 64, Grassfog and Iatha have a conversation about > >> >> "the social niceties" and belonging. It occurs to me that while > >> >> Grassfog is probably male (pg. 161), and at least one of Thong > >> >> and Iatha is probably female (pg. 131), there's a fair chance that > >> >> Grassfog and Iatha are a same-sex couple. > >> > > > > >> But you could also go back and check when Grassfog & Iatha are > >> introduced, when they have slid down the ropes, and see that Grassfog > >> is male and Iatha is female. So they are almost certainly just a > >> mixed-house couple. > > > >Nice try to kill my beautiful theory with an inconvenient fact, David > >- but you've failed miserably (I hope). > > You might take into consideration the possiblity of constructing your > theories on a somewhat more solid foundation, as the Vallista might > say, and to continue the metaphor somewhat, using materials that have > a certain weight and heft to them, and using structual designs that > layer said materials one upon the other in the approved fashion. > > Not that I've ever let that stop *me*, As above with "almost certainly just a mixed-house couple". > but nevertheless. ... > > > Piro's band includes Grassfog, Iatha, Ritt, and Belly. The last > >two could be a gay couple. > > Bah! And one might secretly be Mario, and the other the reincarnation > of Empress Undauntra. > > On what basis do you pretend that that particular notion is even > vaguely related to anything remotely resembling contextual fact? > > > > > And the first two could come, not just from the same House, but > >from the same house, if you catch my drift... > > > > I must again ask from where you think this to be even slightly > probable given the evidence we actually in point of fact have to work > with? Well, no doubt I did a poor (an even worse than usual?) job of projecting tone (which I recently saw defined as the writer's attitude to what he is writing) yesterday - passing myself off as a shark expert by accident, failing to clearly laugh at my readiness to change my theory midair. On the other hand, Paarfi does go to some trouble to end an eventful chapter on a discussion about "the social niceties", hence throwing said discussion into a certain dramatic relief and ruining Piro's exit. (Perhaps "casting" instead of "throwing"? Any sculptors out there?) And though Paarfi on occasion bores me, SKZB doesn't (well, excepting the painting portions of The Sun etc.) So since it would be boring for Grassfog/Iatha (who it should be noted speak full-bore Paarfian) to be a mixed-house couple, and since Ritt/Belly can't be such a couple without further being male/male, I hence conclude that something's up. What exactly that something is (and while incest between Dragaerans strikes me as slightly less icky than among humans but still icky) perhaps SKZB is too clever for me to follow, but I don't feel entirely unconfident. Still on the same hand, I think it's about time for a little more info about homosexuality in the Dragaeran universe to come out - as far as I recall, it's just Kiera being weirded out (to her surprise I think) about Vlad's suggestion that Savn is his catamite. We must have met a hundred Dragaerans by now and a few of them are likely gay if the human conditions still hold - and how their society views this fact (or, in case heterosexuality is the exclusive rule among Dragaerans, how they feel about this difference from Easterners) would be useful to know. From TimN at rcn.com Fri Aug 29 06:07:44 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:07:44 -0400 Subject: Heterosexuality of Draegerans (Was Auden, Fenton re "gya", and a _TLoCB_ spoiler) References: Message-ID: <003401c36e2e$8bab0da0$d916fea9@ananda> Savn considers the possibility that Reins was Vlad's "lover", so the concept isn't entirely unknown in purely "elven" circles -- a "child" knows about the concept enough to consider it and/or joke about it. ----- Original Message ----- From: Philip Hart To: Dragaera Mailing List Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 8:36 AM Subject: Re: Auden, Fenton re "gya", and a _TLoCB_ spoiler > > > On Fri, 29 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > > Still on the same hand, I think it's about time for a little more info > about homosexuality in the Dragaeran universe to come out - as far as > I recall, it's just Kiera being weirded out (to her surprise I think) > about Vlad's suggestion that Savn is his catamite. We must have met a > hundred Dragaerans by now and a few of them are likely gay if the human > conditions still hold - and how their society views this fact (or, in > case heterosexuality is the exclusive rule among Dragaerans, how they > feel about this difference from Easterners) would be useful to know. From warlord at dragon.com Fri Aug 29 08:48:33 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:48:33 -0400 Subject: Worried About ... (LOCB Spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: David Silberstein [mailto:davids at kithrup.com] > Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 2:48 AM > To: Dragaera List > Subject: Re: Worried About ... (LOCB Spoilers) > > > On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > > >These > > > > > > > > > > > >are > > > > > > > > > > > >SPOILERS, > > > > > > > > > >or > > > > > > > > > >I'm > > > > > > > > > > > >a > > > > > > > > > >Norska! > > > > > > > >I'm actually not as worried about Piro as before, since my > >earlier worries were due to the lack of any sort of mention > >of him in the Vlad books and turning bandit is a decent > >reason for that. > > I think there is reason to worry about both Piro & Kytraan (as well as > Tazendra). > > I have been thinking about Morrolan and Blackwand. I have had the > notion that just because Blackwand is female does not mean that she > has the soul of Tazendra. Another possibility is that Blackwand has > her own soul, unrelated to those of our current Dramatis Personae, but > that once she has killed/absorbed another soul, Morrolan can access > (some of) the memories of that soul. > > < LoCB snippage > Here's a thought.... Verra is Morrolans soulmate. An interesting ironic twist (a favorite pasttime of guess who?) would be that Blackwand's "soul activation" involved the (obviously Elsewhere) avatarial demise of Verra. W "I don't like your I-can-use-anything-as-an-adjective attitude." From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Aug 29 11:01:25 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:01:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: almost entirely off-topic poem (was Re: Heterosexuality of Draegerans) In-Reply-To: <003401c36e2e$8bab0da0$d916fea9@ananda> References: <003401c36e2e$8bab0da0$d916fea9@ananda> Message-ID: Here's an early poem by Yeats: A Faery Song (Sung by the people of Faery over Diarmuid and Grania in their bridal sleep under a Cromlech.) We who are old, old and gay, O so old! Thousands of years, thousands of years, If all were told: Give to these children, new from the world, Silence and love; And the long dew-dropping hours of the night, And the stars above: Give to these children, new from the world, Rest far from men. Is anything better, anything better? Tell us it then: Us who are old, old and gay, O so old! Thousands of years, thousands of years, If all were told. On Fri, 29 Aug 2003, Timothy Nelson wrote: > Savn considers the possibility that Reins was Vlad's "lover", so the concept > isn't entirely unknown in purely "elven" circles -- a "child" knows about > the concept enough to consider it and/or joke about it. > From greyw01f at hotmail.com Fri Aug 29 13:53:59 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:53:59 +0000 Subject: Worried About ... (LOCB Spoilers) Message-ID: Since a goddess by definition can be two places at once, who's to say that that doesn't apply to her soul? We know that certain things can attract her attention, like Blood Sacrifice, and the statue in BP, so is it that preposterous that she is the sentience in Blackwand? It's a stretch, but it's not a tear :) Jon ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Warlord" To: "Dragaera List" Subject: RE: Worried About ... (LOCB Spoilers) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:48:33 -0400 > -----Original Message----- > From: David Silberstein [mailto:davids at kithrup.com] > Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 2:48 AM > To: Dragaera List > Subject: Re: Worried About ... (LOCB Spoilers) > > > On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > > >These > > > > > > > > > > > >are > > > > > > > > > > > >SPOILERS, > > > > > > > > > >or > > > > > > > > > >I'm > > > > > > > > > > > >a > > > > > > > > > >Norska! > > > > > > > >I'm actually not as worried about Piro as before, since my > >earlier worries were due to the lack of any sort of mention > >of him in the Vlad books and turning bandit is a decent > >reason for that. > > I think there is reason to worry about both Piro & Kytraan (as well as > Tazendra). > > I have been thinking about Morrolan and Blackwand. I have had the > notion that just because Blackwand is female does not mean that she > has the soul of Tazendra. Another possibility is that Blackwand has > her own soul, unrelated to those of our current Dramatis Personae, but > that once she has killed/absorbed another soul, Morrolan can access > (some of) the memories of that soul. > > < LoCB snippage > Here's a thought.... Verra is Morrolans soulmate. An interesting ironic twist (a favorite pasttime of guess who?) would be that Blackwand's "soul activation" involved the (obviously Elsewhere) avatarial demise of Verra. W "I don't like your I-can-use-anything-as-an-adjective attitude." _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From greyw01f at hotmail.com Fri Aug 29 13:56:27 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:56:27 +0000 Subject: Reading FHYA (possible spoilers) Message-ID: sorry about the possible double post, but hey, I think you guys can handle it. :) SPOI LERS PACE So, there I was, reading FHYA, when I come across two interesting comments, and both on the same page! First was the comment that Kathana e'Marish'chala wedded a Dragonlord of the e'Lanya line sometime between TPG and FHYA. Of course bells went off in my head--could this e'Lanya possibly be father to a certain Dragonlord-turned-Dragon Heir in the Vladiad? Steve seems to really like loose ends to be tied up, something I mildly disagree with, because it seems inconsistent with the many and varied people who live in the Empire. But then, there are only so many nobles, and it is the nobles that all the books are concerned with, so maybe the coincidences aren't so unlikely and convenient as they seem. Second of all, it is mentioned (all this in Khaavren's letter to Aerich, I think) that Tazendra was involved in an explosion at her mansion. She got out unscathed, but it creates a precedent which may have had a more pronounced effect after the orb returns from the Paths, to such end that a certain Teckla named Paresh might find an abandoned, burnt-out manor house in the Duchy of Arylle... Thirdly, I have a suspicion about Mario. I'm still reading (to refresh my memory) FHYA again, so I can't say for certain what behaviour I will see regarding this subject, but I was interested to recall Aliera's behaviour towards Mario. Was she warm, or was she in debt, or what? why did she act so nicely towards him, a Jhereg Assassin? It would hardly be honourable to develop a relationship with a JHEREG ASSASSIN! But then, we know that Dragonlords can find it within acceptable limits to lower themselves to becoming assassins--going back to that e'Lanya dragonlord mentioned above. We also know, from the same example, that dragonlords make extremely competent assassins, to boot. So is it possible that Mario is a Dragonlord in a situation like Norathar's? Unjustly expelled from the house, and forced to survive as an assassin? He certainly can be said to possess greater abilities and resources than your standard Jhereg assassin--something an accomplished dragonlord wizard might have to hand... We also know that naming conventions among dragonlords (ahem, Rollondar, Morrolan) aren't quite so strict as other houses may have, so is an Easterner name for a powerful Dragonlord all that absurd? I have *very* strong doubts that he would be so careless as to be called by his real name--especially if he *is* a dragonlord. But I have not yet re-read the descriptions of him in FHYA, so perhaps this third speculation is based on whimsy :P Jon _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From greyw01f at hotmail.com Fri Aug 29 13:49:45 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:49:45 +0000 Subject: Reading FHYA (some possible spoilers) Message-ID: SPOI LERS PACE So, there I was, reading FHYA, when I come across two interesting comments, and both on the same page! First was the comment that Kathana e'Marish'chala wedded a Dragonlord of the e'Lanya line sometime between TPG and FHYA. Of course bells went off in my head--could this e'Lanya possibly be father to a certain Dragonlord-turned-Dragon Heir in the Vladiad? Steve seems to really like loose ends to be tied up, something I mildly disagree with, because it seems inconsistent with the many and varied people who live in the Empire. But then, there are only so many nobles, and it is the nobles that all the books are concerned with, so maybe the coincidences aren't so unlikely and convenient as they seem. Second of all, it is mentioned (all this in Khaavren's letter to Aerich, I think) that Tazendra was involved in an explosion at her mansion. She got out unscathed, but it creates a precedent which may have had a more pronounced effect after the orb returns from the Paths, to such end that a certain Teckla named Paresh might find an abandoned, burnt-out manor house in the Duchy of Arylle... Thirdly, I have a suspicion about Mario. I'm still reading (to refresh my memory) FHYA again, so I can't say for certain what behaviour I will see regarding this subject, but I was interested to recall Aliera's behaviour towards Mario. Was she warm, or was she in debt, or what? why did she act so nicely towards him, a Jhereg Assassin? It would hardly be honourable to develop a relationship with a JHEREG ASSASSIN! But then, we know that Dragonlords can find it within acceptable limits to lower themselves to becoming assassins--going back to that e'Lanya dragonlord mentioned above. We also know, from the same example, that dragonlords make extremely competent assassins, to boot. So is it possible that Mario is a Dragonlord in a situation like Norathar's? Unjustly expelled from the house, and forced to survive as an assassin? He certainly can be said to possess greater abilities and resources than your standard Jhereg assassin--something an accomplished dragonlord wizard might have to hand... We also know that naming conventions among dragonlords (ahem, Rollondar, Morrolan) aren't quite so strict as other houses may have, so is an Easterner name for a powerful Dragonlord all that absurd? I have *very* strong doubts that he would be so careless as to be called by his real name--especially if he *is* a dragonlord. But I have not yet re-read the descriptions of him in FHYA, so perhaps this third speculation is based on whimsy :P Jon _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From pulmon at comcast.net Fri Aug 29 14:34:56 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 17:34:56 -0400 Subject: Reading FHYA (possible spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Friday, August 29, 2003, at 04:56 PM, Jon Carey wrote: > From: "Jon Carey" > Date: Fri Aug 29, 2003 4:56:27 PM US/Eastern > To: Dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Reading FHYA (possible spoilers) > > > > sorry about the possible double post, but hey, I think you guys can > handle it. :) > > SPOI > > > > > > LERS > > > > > > PACE > > > > So, there I was, reading FHYA, when I come across two interesting > comments, and both on the same page! First was the comment that > Kathana e'Marish'chala wedded a Dragonlord of the e'Lanya line > sometime between TPG and FHYA. Of course bells went off in my > head--could this e'Lanya possibly be father to a certain > Dragonlord-turned-Dragon Heir in the Vladiad? Steve seems to really > like loose ends to be tied up, something I mildly disagree with, > because it seems inconsistent with the many and varied people who live > in the Empire. But then, there are only so many nobles, and it is the > nobles that all the books are concerned with, so maybe the > coincidences aren't so unlikely and convenient as they seem. > > Second of all, it is mentioned (all this in Khaavren's letter to > Aerich, I think) that Tazendra was involved in an explosion at her > mansion. She got out unscathed, but it creates a precedent which may > have had a more pronounced effect after the orb returns from the > Paths, to such end that a certain Teckla named Paresh might find an > abandoned, burnt-out manor house in the Duchy of Arylle... > > Thirdly, I have a suspicion about Mario. I'm still reading (to refresh > my memory) FHYA again, so I can't say for certain what behaviour I > will see regarding this subject, but I was interested to recall > Aliera's behaviour towards Mario. Was she warm, or was she in debt, > or what? why did she act so nicely towards him, a Jhereg Assassin? > It would hardly be honourable to develop a relationship with a JHEREG > ASSASSIN! But then, we know that Dragonlords can find it within > acceptable limits to lower themselves to becoming assassins--going > back to that e'Lanya dragonlord mentioned above. We also know, from > the same example, that dragonlords make extremely competent assassins, > to boot. So is it possible that Mario is a Dragonlord in a situation > like Norathar's? Unjustly expelled from the house, and forced to > survive as an assassin? He certainly can be said to possess greater > abilities and resources than your standard Jhereg assassin--something > an accomplished dragonlord wizard might have to hand... > > We also know that naming conventions among dragonlords (ahem, > Rollondar, Morrolan) aren't quite so strict as other houses may have, > so is an Easterner name for a powerful Dragonlord all that absurd? I > have *very* strong doubts that he would be so careless as to be called > by his real name--especially if he *is* a dragonlord. > > But I have not yet re-read the descriptions of him in FHYA, so perhaps > this third speculation is based on whimsy :P > > Jon No, Wimsey would never stoop to speculate about this. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > From Raellew at aol.com Fri Aug 29 16:53:45 2003 From: Raellew at aol.com (Raellew at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 19:53:45 EDT Subject: Worried About ... (LOCB Spoilers) Message-ID: In a message dated 8/28/03, Matthew Hunter writes: On Thu, Aug 28, 2003 at 06:10:43PM +0000, Steve Hubbell < usagigoya at hotmail.com> wrote: From: Gaertk at aol.com on Wed, 27 Aug 2003 20:34:55 -0400 >> > >> > >> > >> >These >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >are >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >SPOILERS, >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >or >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >I'm >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >a >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >Norska! >> > >> > >> > >> >I'm actually not as worried about Piro as before, since my >> >earlier worries were due to the lack of any sort of mention >> >of him in the Vlad books and turning bandit is a decent >> >reason for that. >> >> Vlad spends something like three years making a living by being "robbed" by >> bandits, so maybe he has met Piro and Co. and maybe that encounter had >> something to do with great weights and parrying swords with an empty hand... > >I'm starting to think that maybe he just did something to offend Loiosh. Don't be ridiculous. He did it chopping onions. Okay, so maybe Loiosh did distract him a little. But it was an accident. Really. An accident. Rae From Raellew at aol.com Fri Aug 29 17:13:44 2003 From: Raellew at aol.com (Raellew at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:13:44 EDT Subject: Heterosexuality of Draegerans (Was Auden, Fenton re "gya", and a _TLoCB_ ... Message-ID: <148.182937dc.2c814638@aol.com> In a message dated 8/29/03, Timothy Nelson writes: On Fri, 29 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: >> >> >>Still on the same hand, I think it's about time for a little more info >>about homosexuality in the Dragaeran universe to come out - as >>far as I recall, it's just Kiera being weirded out (to her surprise I >>think) about Vlad's suggestion that Savn is his catamite.? We must >>have met a hundred Dragaerans by now and a few of them are likely >>gay if the human conditions still hold - and how their society views >>this fact (or, in case heterosexuality is the exclusive rule among >>Dragaerans, how they feel about this difference from Easterners) >>would be useful to know. > >Savn considers the possibility that Reins was Vlad's "lover", so the >concept isn't entirely unknown in purely "elven" circles -- a "child" >knows about the concept enough to consider it and/or joke about it. His sister Polyi, to nitpick (I just re-read _Athyra_ a couple days ago). She doesn't seem to find the notion shocking, but that could just be because Vlad is an Easterner, and the gods only know what Easterners are capable of.... Rae From davids at kithrup.com Fri Aug 29 17:17:52 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 17:17:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reading FHYA (some possible spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Aug 2003, Jon Carey wrote: >SPOI > > > > > >LERS > > > > > >PACE > > > >So, there I was, reading FHYA, when I come across two interesting >comments, and both on the same page! First was the comment that >Kathana e'Marish'chala wedded a Dragonlord of the e'Lanya line >sometime between TPG and FHYA. Of course bells went off in my >head--could this e'Lanya possibly be father to a certain >Dragonlord-turned-Dragon Heir in the Vladiad? Not really. Norathar's mom was named Miera. Besides, if Kathana had married the Dragon Heir and gotten herself killed in a war over the scandal of cross-House bastardy, I rather think it would have been a well-known event. > Steve seems to really like loose ends to be tied up, You must be reading books by some other Steve. >Thirdly, I have a suspicion about Mario. I'm still reading (to >refresh my memory) FHYA again, so I can't say for certain what >behaviour I will see regarding this subject, but I was interested to >recall Aliera's behaviour towards Mario. Was she warm, or was she in >debt, or what? why did she act so nicely towards him, a Jhereg >Assassin? It would hardly be honourable to develop a relationship >with a JHEREG ASSASSIN! You seem to have entirely misunderstood Aliera's nature. She doesn't care in the least for convention or propriety. As long as it is not actually forbidden, she'll do it - and quite often even if it *is* forbidden - e.g., Elder Sorcery - she'll do it if she wants to. She is what is quite often described as "willful". If she finds Mario attractive, she will, without a shadow of a doubt, boink him regardless of his House. > But then, we know that Dragonlords can find it within acceptable >limits to lower themselves to becoming assassins--going back to that >e'Lanya dragonlord mentioned above. She grew up as a Jhereg, and so had no idea whether or not Dragonlords would find it acceptable, and probably would not have cared. > We also know, from the same example, that dragonlords make >extremely competent assassins, to boot. Because of course we always generalize from one example. > So is it possible that Mario is a Dragonlord in a situation like >Norathar's? Unlikely. Norathar's situation was very unusual indeed. > Unjustly expelled from the house, and forced to survive as an >assassin? How do you even know that it would have been unjust? Maybe he *is* a crossbreed bastard. But it is far more likely that he is simply a Jhereg (although it occurs to me that to the other Houses, perhaps *all* Jhereg are crossbreed bastards). > He certainly can be said to possess greater abilities and resources >than your standard Jhereg assassin--something an accomplished >dragonlord wizard might have to hand... Not really. He's clever and skillful, but he's also exceedingly lucky, if Paarfi is anything to go on. And of course, Paarfi might be wrong. >But I have not yet re-read the descriptions of him in FHYA, so >perhaps this third speculation is based on whimsy :P It is even as you say. From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Fri Aug 29 18:31:24 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 18:31:24 -0700 Subject: Heterosexuality of Draegerans (Was Auden, Fenton re "gya", and a _TLoCB_ ... In-Reply-To: <148.182937dc.2c814638@aol.com> References: <148.182937dc.2c814638@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:13:44 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 8/29/03, Timothy Nelson writes: > >On Fri, 29 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: >>> >>> >>>Still on the same hand, I think it's about time for a little more info >>>about homosexuality in the Dragaeran universe to come out - as >>>far as I recall, it's just Kiera being weirded out (to her surprise I >>>think) about Vlad's suggestion that Savn is his catamite.? We must >>>have met a hundred Dragaerans by now and a few of them are likely >>>gay if the human conditions still hold - and how their society views >>>this fact (or, in case heterosexuality is the exclusive rule among >>>Dragaerans, how they feel about this difference from Easterners) >>>would be useful to know. >> >>Savn considers the possibility that Reins was Vlad's "lover", so the >>concept isn't entirely unknown in purely "elven" circles -- a "child" >>knows about the concept enough to consider it and/or joke about it. > >His sister Polyi, to nitpick (I just re-read _Athyra_ a couple days >ago). She doesn't seem to find the notion shocking, but that could >just be because Vlad is an Easterner, and the gods only know what >Easterners are capable of.... > >Rae But also notice that she was commenting about how they were "life partners", and made it fairly clear this was a peculiar concept unless one is an Easterner or jhereg. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From davids at kithrup.com Fri Aug 29 23:08:25 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 23:08:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Concerning the Great Sea of Chaos Message-ID: Have we ever been told where the Great Sea is? I thought Sethra might have mentioned it in her Deep Exposition on the Jenoine, in /Issola/, but I just reread that and saw no sign of it there. I ask because I have had another one of my notions. In /Phoenix/, an Orca sailor mentions the Maelstrom, in terms that suggest it might be a near-total and nearly permanent barrier to sailing a certain distance past the coast of Dragaera. I found this implied barrier to be rather odd. Isn't the coast of Dragaera fairly large? How can the Maelstrom be a barrier for the entire coastline? Anyway, my notion is simply that the Great Sea of Chaos is in or under the ocean-sea, fairly far from the coast, perhaps right where the continental shelf drops off, in an arc following the coast, and that the whirlpools of the Maelstrom are the interface of the Amorphia of the Great Sea interacting with the more ordinary waters of the ocean-sea. This would keep it fairly near to the Empire (in case proximity is important for the proper functioning of the Orb), yet far enough away for safety's sake that most persons would not interact with it, since most shipping could well follow the coast. As usual, my notion may be entirely incorrect since there is certainly insufficient supporting evidence, and there may indeed be conflicting text out there. Nevertheless, I like my notion, since I find the idea of the Maelstrom to be annoying in its inexplicable lack of any known natural cause, and it puts the Great Sea in a known place that actually makes some sort of sense. From fides at kludgeco.com Sat Aug 30 04:51:35 2003 From: fides at kludgeco.com (Fides) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 12:51:35 +0100 Subject: Auden, Fenton re "gya", and a _TLoCB_ spoiler In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F508FC7.2080509@kludgeco.com> Philip Hart wrote: > Still on the same hand, I think it's about time for a little more info > about homosexuality in the Dragaeran universe to come out - as far as > I recall, it's just Kiera being weirded out (to her surprise I think) > about Vlad's suggestion that Savn is his catamite. And (if I remember correctly because I don't have the book to hand) it is not entirely clear what it is about that idea that causes the reaction. It might not be to do with their respective genders but another factor. For example: that it is Vlad (who to the best of her knowledge is still in love with Cawti); that the relationship would be human/non-human one (which we have seen is the cause of some surprise and snickering about the Empress and which Vlad has likened to beastiality); Savn's age and mental state; the type of relationship which is implied by the use of the term catamite rather that any other word that could be used to indicate a physical relationship was involved or even that Vlad has shown no previous inclination in that direction. I think any of the above would produce a certain boggle-factor even if homosexuality was common and a non-issue. It is clear that it is known about otherwise the concept wouldn't exist. I can't remember Vlad ever mentioning whether he was boss of 'gentlemen of negotiable affection' as well as ladies of the same. It seems unlikely that the Jhereg wouldn't be an equal oppotunity employer in that respect unless there just wasn't a market (unlikely if homosexuality existed at all) or that were some things even they wouldn't stoop to (and you can bet they would hostiliy take over with any competitors) which would answer the question of attitude. And once we get past that there is always the question of whether if it existed it would resemble the modern understanding of the word or any of the other constructions of same-sex relationships that have existed throughtout history or something totally different again. A few thoughts. ;-) Fides From dusty at sayersnet.com Sat Aug 30 09:15:52 2003 From: dusty at sayersnet.com (J A 'Dusty' Sayers) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 12:15:52 -0400 Subject: Auden, Fenton re "gya", and a _TLoCB_ spoiler References: <3F508FC7.2080509@kludgeco.com> Message-ID: <3F50CDB8.FDFDB4BB@sayersnet.com> (This is my second try at this letter; although I've read the mailing list for about a year, I don't often respond, so when I do, I usually don't send the e-mail to the right place the first time--my apologies to Fides for sending him this at his personal e-mail address earlier.) Fides wrote: > It is clear that it is known about otherwise the concept wouldn't exist. > I can't remember Vlad ever mentioning whether he was boss of 'gentlemen > of negotiable affection' as well as ladies of the same. It seems > unlikely that the Jhereg wouldn't be an equal oppotunity employer in > that respect unless there just wasn't a market (unlikely if > homosexuality existed at all) or that were some things even they > wouldn't stoop to (and you can bet they would hostiliy take over with > any competitors) which would answer the question of attitude. Vlad has, when discussing brothels he has known and run, mentioned both male and female tags. Whether the male tags are just there for female customers, or for male customers, or if they swing both ways, or if some are for males and some for females (or, for that matter, with which sex or sexes the female tags worked) was not discussed. -- J A Dusty Sayers 'Give thy thoughts no tongue, Nor any unproportioned thought his act.' --William Shakespeare, Hamlet From fides at kludgeco.com Sat Aug 30 10:54:34 2003 From: fides at kludgeco.com (Fides) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 18:54:34 +0100 Subject: Auden, Fenton re "gya", and a _TLoCB_ spoiler In-Reply-To: <3F50CDB8.FDFDB4BB@sayersnet.com> References: <3F508FC7.2080509@kludgeco.com> <3F50CDB8.FDFDB4BB@sayersnet.com> Message-ID: <3F50E4DA.8040509@kludgeco.com> J A 'Dusty' Sayers wrote: > (This is my second try at this letter; although I've read the mailing list > for about a year, I don't often respond, so when I do, I usually don't send > the e-mail to the right place the first time--my apologies to Fides for > sending him this at his personal e-mail address earlier.) No problem. This is the only one of the many e-mail lists I am on that works this way so I frequently do it as well. > Vlad has, when discussing brothels he has known and run, mentioned both male > > and female tags. Whether the male tags are just there for female customers, > > or for male customers, or if they swing both ways, or if some are for males > and some for females (or, for that matter, with which sex or sexes the > female tags worked) was not discussed. I would expect to get more women visiting brothels in Dragaera because they don't seem to have the same repressive/guilt based religious historical background that you get in RL (and accidental pregnancy doesn't seem to be a problem). I suspect the most likely answer for who the tags work with is governed by desperation (in the nastier brothels) and personal choice (in the higher class establishments). ;-) Fides From wikdtrib at bellsouth.net Sat Aug 30 12:13:05 2003 From: wikdtrib at bellsouth.net (Heather Fleming) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 14:13:05 -0500 Subject: floating castles Message-ID: <000a01c36f2a$bdfd27a0$30c3d6d1@hppav> I'm curious. I may be wrong, as a matter of fact it is quite possible that I am, but I think I will ask my question anyway. So, here it is: if sorcery was limited before the Interregnum( limited, that is, as compared to after the ascension of Zerika the Fourth) in such a way as to require citizens to travel by foot or horse or wagon or what have you, and it was common for Dragonlords of the e'Drien line to have floating castles, how would one get from the ground to said castle and back again? Once again, I may be wrong but I was under the impression that teleportation was a relatively new skill, even for the likes of Sethra Lavode. From matthew at infodancer.org Sat Aug 30 12:50:18 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 14:50:18 -0500 Subject: floating castles In-Reply-To: <000a01c36f2a$bdfd27a0$30c3d6d1@hppav> References: <000a01c36f2a$bdfd27a0$30c3d6d1@hppav> Message-ID: <20030830195018.GJ25161@infodancer.org> On Sat, Aug 30, 2003 at 02:13:05PM -0500, Heather Fleming wrote: > I'm curious. I may be wrong, as a matter of fact it is quite > possible that I am, but I think I will ask my question anyway. > So, here it is: if sorcery was limited before the Interregnum( > limited, that is, as compared to after the ascension of Zerika > the Fourth) in such a way as to require citizens to travel by > foot or horse or wagon or what have you, and it was common for > Dragonlords of the e'Drien line to have floating castles, how > would one get from the ground to said castle and back again? > Once again, I may be wrong but I was under the impression that > teleportation was a relatively new skill, even for the likes of > Sethra Lavode. A couple points. First, according to Paarfi, Sethra was able to teleport the Orb, Aliera, and presumably herself out of harm's way before the Interregnum, in a situation where there were only seconds to act. This suggests that teleporting was possible, but very, very difficult -- ie, only a sorceror such as Sethra could manage it with any chance of success. However, were it something Sethra had never attempted before, her chances of success three times in a row under extreme pressure would be fairly low. Thus, I think it was possible before the Interregnum, merely very difficult, and possibly requiring Elder Sorcery rather than the Orb. Now, on to your question, which is an answer much shorter than the above. In fact, it is so short that a single word will suffice to bring forth in your mind all of the associations within the text of the work known to us as _Lord of Castle Black_ and cause you to instantly comprehend the full glory thereof. What is this word, you say? What? You claim you have been asking for nothing else for an hour? Very well then. The word is "Levitation". -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From dusty at sayersnet.com Sat Aug 30 12:55:52 2003 From: dusty at sayersnet.com (J A 'Dusty' Sayers) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 15:55:52 -0400 Subject: Auden, Fenton re "gya", and a _TLoCB_ spoiler References: <3F508FC7.2080509@kludgeco.com> <3F50CDB8.FDFDB4BB@sayersnet.com> <3F50E4DA.8040509@kludgeco.com> Message-ID: <3F510148.48D7D5CE@sayersnet.com> > > Vlad has, when discussing brothels he has known and run, mentioned both male > > > > and female tags. Whether the male tags are just there for female customers, > > > > or for male customers, or if they swing both ways, or if some are for males > > and some for females (or, for that matter, with which sex or sexes the > > female tags worked) was not discussed. > > I would expect to get more women visiting brothels in Dragaera because > they don't seem to have the same repressive/guilt based religious > historical background that you get in RL (and accidental pregnancy > doesn't seem to be a problem). That was actually sort of my guess as well--there's certainly a different attitude towards sex roles and sexual relations in Dragaera than there is in, say, East Tennessee. > I suspect the most likely answer for who the tags work with is governed > by desperation (in the nastier brothels) and personal choice (in the > higher class establishments). Heh, that's probably true. -- J A Dusty Sayers Home Page http://www.sayersnet.com/~dusty/ Rescue the Princess http://www.sayersnet.com/~dusty/rescue/ Kings of Chaos http://www.kingsofchaos.com/page.php?id=295152 'Let schoolmasters puzzle their brain, With grammar, and nonsense, and learning; Good liquor, I stoutly maintain, Gives genius a better discerning.' --Oliver Goldsmith, She Stoops to Conquer From wikdtrib at bellsouth.net Sat Aug 30 13:31:54 2003 From: wikdtrib at bellsouth.net (Heather Fleming) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 15:31:54 -0500 Subject: floating castles Message-ID: <001301c36f35$c14b6740$30c3d6d1@hppav> >A couple points. First, according to Paarfi, Sethra was >able to >teleport the Orb, Aliera, and presumably herself out of >harm's >way before the Interregnum, in a situation where there >were >only seconds to act. This suggests that teleporting was >possible, but very, very difficult -- ie, only a sorceror ?>such as >Sethra could manage it with any chance of success. >However, >were it something Sethra had never attempted before, >her chances >of success three times in a row under extreme pressure >would be >fairly low. >Thus, I think it was possible before the Interregnum, >merely very >difficult, and possibly requiring Elder Sorcery rather than >the >Orb. To this I concede that you have the right of it and I am thus well educated. >Now, on to your question, which is an answer much >shorter than >the above. In fact, it is so short that a single word will >suffice to bring forth in your mind all of the associations >within the text of the work known to us as _Lord of >Castle Black_ >and cause you to instantly comprehend the full glory >thereof. >What is this word, you say? What? You claim you have >been >asking for nothing else for an hour? Very well then. The >word >is "Levitation". However, as to this statement, I wonder. Yes, I do wonder, and I shall tell you why I wonder presently. My mind, and therefore my memory, can only recall references being made to levitation, with the exception of the afore mentioned castles that are the very subject of this discourse in which we are presently involved, after the return of the orb, specifically in reference to the levitation of and transportation of bodies. For example, Aliera levitates and thus transports herself by levitation in order to make her stature seem more vertically imposing, yet mention of it only seems to occur after the return of the orb. Similarly, a certain Hawklord named Daymar transports himself in this manner as well, however this is also only referred to after the end of the Interregnum. I can recall no mention of transportation by levitation before the Interregnum. So I do beseech you to show me where my logic has failed as I will simply be unable to rest until my mind and this problem are thoroughly reconciled. From TimN at rcn.com Sat Aug 30 14:00:56 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 17:00:56 -0400 Subject: floating castles References: <001301c36f35$c14b6740$30c3d6d1@hppav> Message-ID: <004801c36f39$cf724f60$d916fea9@ananda> I shall do so with the most simple of examples. Their castles levitated. - T ----- Original Message ----- From: Heather Fleming To: Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 4:31 PM Subject: re: floating castles So I do beseech you to show me where my logic has failed as I will simply be unable to rest until my mind and this problem are thoroughly reconciled. From davids at kithrup.com Sat Aug 30 13:59:18 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 13:59:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: floating castles In-Reply-To: <001301c36f35$c14b6740$30c3d6d1@hppav> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Aug 2003, Heather Fleming wrote: > >>Now, on to your question, which is an answer much shorter than >>the above. In fact, it is so short that a single word will >>suffice to bring forth in your mind all of the associations >>within the text of the work known to us as _Lord of Castle Black_ >>and cause you to instantly comprehend the full glory thereof. >>What is this word, you say? What? You claim you have been >>asking for nothing else for an hour? Very well then. The word >>is "Levitation". > >However, as to this statement, I wonder. Yes, I do wonder, and I >shall tell you why I wonder presently. My mind, and therefore my >memory, can only recall references being made to levitation, with the >exception of the afore mentioned castles that are the very subject of >this discourse in which we are presently involved, after the return >of the orb, specifically in reference to the levitation of and >transportation of bodies. For example, Aliera levitates and thus >transports herself by levitation in order to make her stature seem >more vertically imposing, yet mention of it only seems to occur after >the return of the orb. Similarly, a certain Hawklord named Daymar >transports himself in this manner as well, however this is also only >referred to after the end of the Interregnum. I can recall no >mention of transportation by levitation before the Interregnum. So I >do beseech you to show me where my logic has failed as I will simply >be unable to rest until my mind and this problem are thoroughly >reconciled. And yet I believe it is the castles themselves to which you have the honor to refer that provide the answer, or so I shall endeavor to demonstrate, if you would do me the kindness of continuing to read while I write two words. Consider, if you will, a feather: It it not easy to lift? Now consider a pound of feathers, that is to say, many many feathers collected together in a large sack. Is it also not easy to lift? Yet if you can lift the pound of feathers easily, is it not far easier to lift a single feather of them? Now let us consider a castle. What, indeed, is a castle? For the sake of my argument, let us call it a huge mass of stones, arranged in a particular structure. Yet if it is possible to lift that enormous mass of stones into the air, is it not far easier to raise up a far smaller mass into the air? Now, let us consider that castle, not simply as a huge mass of stones, but rather as a living place. It is, in that sense, a large domicile that serves to shelter many tens or hundreds of persons - the owners of the castle, their servants and their guards, as well as any possible visitors, guests and, quite importantly for the sake of my argument, as you will soon see, sundry tradespersons who come to deliver or take away various goods and substances to and from the castle. Obivously, if the castle is to be floating in the air in a manner similar to a large cloud, that flow of persons and material cannot be allowed to halt. Otherwise, the floating castle, while quite possible as a sorcerous feat, would be utterly impossible as a practical structure. However, since we have observed that is far easier to levitate lesser quantities than it is to levitate greater ones, we can combine that observation with our current one, and deduce that not only was it possible to levitate tradesmen and peasants - and even their wagons of goods - fairly easily to and from the castle, but that this was in fact done on a fairly common basis, no doubt weekly if not in fact daily. There. Does that satisfy your curiosity? From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Sat Aug 30 13:47:31 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 13:47:31 -0700 Subject: floating castles In-Reply-To: <000a01c36f2a$bdfd27a0$30c3d6d1@hppav> References: <000a01c36f2a$bdfd27a0$30c3d6d1@hppav> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 14:13:05 -0500, you wrote: > I'm curious. I may be wrong, as a matter of fact it is quite possible that I am, but I think I will ask my question anyway. So, here it is: if sorcery was limited before the Interregnum( limited, that is, as compared to after the ascension of Zerika the Fourth) in such a way as to require citizens to travel by foot or horse or wagon or what have you, and it was common for Dragonlords of the e'Drien line to have floating castles, how would one get from the ground to said castle and back again? Once again, I may be wrong but I was under the impression that teleportation was a relatively new skill, even for the likes of Sethra Lavode. > > > Rope ladders. :-D -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From jetdragon at comcast.net Sat Aug 30 15:23:20 2003 From: jetdragon at comcast.net (jetdragon at comcast.net) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 22:23:20 +0000 Subject: Auden, Fenton re "gya", and a _TLoCB_ spoiler Message-ID: J A 'Dusty' Sayers wrote: >> I would expect to get more women visiting brothels in Dragaera >> because >> they don't seem to have the same repressive/guilt based religious >> historical background that you get in RL (and accidental pregnancy >> doesn't seem to be a problem). > > That was actually sort of my guess as well--there's certainly a > different attitude towards sex roles and sexual relations in Dragaera > than there is in, say, East Tennessee. Hey. *I* live in East Tennessee and have a very liberal attitude, thankyouverymuch. As a generalization, though, you are probably correct (I don't actually know since I've only been here two weeks). Actually relating to the Dragaeran attitude, I seem to recall in _Teckla_ Vlad said that Dragaerans don't consider prostitution to be a bad thing, or something similar. Not adding much to the discussion, Jessica From dusty at sayersnet.com Sat Aug 30 15:41:21 2003 From: dusty at sayersnet.com (J A 'Dusty' Sayers) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 18:41:21 -0400 Subject: Auden, Fenton re "gya", and a _TLoCB_ spoiler References: <200308302225.SAA32717@www.businesspower.com> Message-ID: <3F512811.9A675572@sayersnet.com> > J A 'Dusty' Sayers wrote: > >> I would expect to get more women visiting brothels in Dragaera > >> because > >> they don't seem to have the same repressive/guilt based religious > >> historical background that you get in RL (and accidental pregnancy > >> doesn't seem to be a problem). > > > > That was actually sort of my guess as well--there's certainly a > > different attitude towards sex roles and sexual relations in Dragaera > > than there is in, say, East Tennessee. > > Hey. *I* live in East Tennessee and have a very liberal attitude, > thankyouverymuch. As a generalization, though, you are probably correct (I > don't actually know since I've only been here two weeks). Actually relating to > the Dragaeran attitude, I seem to recall in _Teckla_ Vlad said that Dragaerans > don't consider prostitution to be a bad thing, or something similar. Well, I live in East Tennessee and have a fairly conservative attitude (thankyouverymuch), but I still like (most*) liberals. I was just using my own home, with its stereotypes, good and bad, as a counterexample to Dragaera. Prostitution is generally considered a bad thing here, regardless of sexual orientation, but females using prostitutes is probably frowned on even more than men using them (while in Dragaera, if there is any stigma in hiring a prostitute or visiting a brothel, it's probaly equal for men and women--the double standard seems much less pronounced, if it exists at all). I hope you enjoy East Tennessee, and if there's anything a native of the area can do to help you out (particularly if you live in the Tri-Cities area of Upper East Tennessee (regionalism can never be taken too far)), be sure to let me know. *For that matter, I don't like all conservatives, either. -- J A Dusty Sayers 'Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.' -- Proverbs 31:6-7 From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sat Aug 30 15:43:40 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 15:43:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Auden, Fenton re "gya", and a _TLoCB_ spoiler In-Reply-To: <200308302228.h7UMRwch013257@nospam1.slac.stanford.edu> References: <200308302228.h7UMRwch013257@nospam1.slac.stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 jetdragon at comcast.net wrote: > J A 'Dusty' Sayers wrote: > >> I would expect to get more women visiting brothels in Dragaera > >> because > >> they don't seem to have the same repressive/guilt based religious > >> historical background that you get in RL (and accidental pregnancy > >> doesn't seem to be a problem). It seems to me there may simply be biological aspects to women's sexuality - say slower arousal or less automatic sexual respose - that might lead to fewer female customers in brothels despite complete social equality between men and women. And note that there is still some residual chivalry apparent in the Paarfiad - e.g., women can chastise servants. > > That was actually sort of my guess as well--there's certainly a > > different attitude towards sex roles and sexual relations in Dragaera > > than there is in, say, East Tennessee. > > Hey. *I* live in East Tennessee and have a very liberal attitude, > thankyouverymuch. As a generalization, though, you are probably correct > (I don't actually know since I've only been here two weeks). Actually > relating to the Dragaeran attitude, I seem to recall in _Teckla_ Vlad > said that Dragaerans don't consider prostitution to be a bad thing, or > something similar. I grew up in Knoxville, which is in East Tennessee but considerably more liberal than the surrounding areas. It occurs to me a bit late that Adrilankha is likely the Empire's equivalent of NYC, and maybe Vlad worked in the equivalent of pre-Giuliani Times Square. Plus possibly there were serious social retrenchments after the loosened morals of the interregnum. So it is dangerous to generalize too much from what Vlad thinks Dragaerans think or thought. (David says to himself, Well, duh!) From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Sat Aug 30 15:50:18 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 15:50:18 -0700 Subject: Auden, Fenton re "gya", and a _TLoCB_ spoiler In-Reply-To: <200308302227.h7UMRvYw013677@beg.ugcs.caltech.edu> References: <200308302227.h7UMRvYw013677@beg.ugcs.caltech.edu> Message-ID: <20030830225018.GA5012@ofb.net> On Sat, Aug 30, 2003 at 10:23:20PM +0000, jetdragon at comcast.net wrote: > don't actually know since I've only been here two weeks). Actually relating > to the Dragaeran attitude, I seem to recall in _Teckla_ Vlad said that > Dragaerans don't consider prostitution to be a bad thing, or something > similar. To the annoyance of Cawti when he brought it up... -xx- Damien X-) From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Aug 31 00:16:36 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 00:16:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Concerning the Great Sea of Chaos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I thought we knew where the Sea was, roughly - I had thought south, but my grasp of even Terran geography is weak (a woman in a bar just informed me that much to my surprise New Mexico is contiguous with Texas). Anyway, it's something that one can wade into if foolhardy, hence likely not in the middle of a prosaic ocean. (I still don't understand about Orlaan in this context - she seems to be doing direct Elder Sorcery, not stone-mediated.) Anyway, we know that features of Dragaeran topography are non-natural - the Eastern mountain range, Dzur Mountain - so I don't feel so concerned about the (possibly there-be-dragons) Maelstrom. Also I don't see any ocean-Sea interaction resulting in a vortex. Also I don't see any ocean-Sea interaction at all, as we know the Lesser Sea just inexplicably sits there, a big blob of Universal Solvent not solving. On Fri, 29 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > Have we ever been told where the Great Sea is? I thought Sethra might > have mentioned it in her Deep Exposition on the Jenoine, in /Issola/, > but I just reread that and saw no sign of it there. > > I ask because I have had another one of my notions. In /Phoenix/, an > Orca sailor mentions the Maelstrom, in terms that suggest it might be > a near-total and nearly permanent barrier to sailing a certain > distance past the coast of Dragaera. I found this implied barrier to > be rather odd. Isn't the coast of Dragaera fairly large? How can the > Maelstrom be a barrier for the entire coastline? > > Anyway, my notion is simply that the Great Sea of Chaos is in or under > the ocean-sea, fairly far from the coast, perhaps right where the > continental shelf drops off, in an arc following the coast, and that > the whirlpools of the Maelstrom are the interface of the Amorphia of > the Great Sea interacting with the more ordinary waters of the > ocean-sea. This would keep it fairly near to the Empire (in case > proximity is important for the proper functioning of the Orb), yet far > enough away for safety's sake that most persons would not interact > with it, since most shipping could well follow the coast. > > As usual, my notion may be entirely incorrect since there is certainly > insufficient supporting evidence, and there may indeed be conflicting > text out there. Nevertheless, I like my notion, since I find the idea > of the Maelstrom to be annoying in its inexplicable lack of any > known natural cause, and it puts the Great Sea in a known place that > actually makes some sort of sense. > > From wikdtrib at bellsouth.net Sun Aug 31 02:26:52 2003 From: wikdtrib at bellsouth.net (Heather Fleming) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 04:26:52 -0500 Subject: floating castles Message-ID: <001701c36fa2$03f85fa0$87c0d6d1@hppav> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 14:13:05 -0500, you wrote: > I'm curious. I may be wrong, as a matter of fact it is quite possible that I am, but I think I will ask my question anyway. So, here it is: if sorcery was limited before the Interregnum( limited, that is, as compared to after the ascension of Zerika the Fourth) in such a way as to require citizens to travel by foot or horse or wagon or what have you, and it was common for Dragonlords of the e'Drien line to have floating castles, how would one get from the ground to said castle and back again? Once again, I may be wrong but I was under the impression that teleportation was a relatively new skill, even for the likes of Sethra Lavode. > > > >Rope ladders. I find your eloquent, though brief, explanation more plausible than you might have thought. All other transportation thus far, before the return of the orb, and as well before the Interregnum, with certain extreme circumstances aside, was manual, that is to say without the use of sorcery. From wikdtrib at bellsouth.net Sun Aug 31 02:29:06 2003 From: wikdtrib at bellsouth.net (Heather Fleming) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 04:29:06 -0500 Subject: floating castles Message-ID: <003101c36fa2$53e35ba0$87c0d6d1@hppav> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003, Heather Fleming wrote: > >However, as to this statement, I wonder. Yes, I do wonder, and I >shall tell you why I wonder presently. My mind, and therefore my >memory, can only recall references being made to levitation, with the >exception of the afore mentioned castles that are the very subject of >this discourse in which we are presently involved, after the return >of the orb, specifically in reference to the levitation of and >transportation of bodies. For example, Aliera levitates and thus >transports herself by levitation in order to make her stature seem >more vertically imposing, yet mention of it only seems to occur after >the return of the orb. Similarly, a certain Hawklord named Daymar >transports himself in this manner as well, however this is also only >referred to after the end of the Interregnum. I can recall no >mention of transportation by levitation before the Interregnum. So I >do beseech you to show me where my logic has failed as I will simply >be unable to rest until my mind and this problem are thoroughly >reconciled. >And yet I believe it is the castles themselves to which you have the >demonstrate, if you would do me the kindness of continuing to read >while I write two words. >Consider, if you will, a feather: It it not easy to lift? Now >consider a pound of feathers, that is to say, many many feathers >collected together in a large sack. Is it also not easy to lift? >Yet if you can lift the pound of feathers easily, is it not far easier >to lift a single feather of them? >Now let us consider a castle. What, indeed, is a castle? For the >sake of my argument, let us call it a huge mass of stones, arranged in >a particular structure. >Yet if it is possible to lift that enormous mass of stones into the >air, is it not far easier to raise up a far smaller mass into the air? >Now, let us consider that castle, not simply as a huge mass of stones, >but rather as a living place. It is, in that sense, a large domicile >that serves to shelter many tens or hundreds of persons - the owners >of the castle, their servants and their guards, as well as any >possible visitors, guests and, quite importantly for the sake of my >argument, as you will soon see, sundry tradespersons who come to >deliver or take away various goods and substances to and from the >castle. >Obivously, if the castle is to be floating in the air in a manner >similar to a large cloud, that flow of persons and material cannot be >allowed to halt. Otherwise, the floating castle, while quite possible >as a sorcerous feat, would be utterly impossible as a practical >structure. However, since we have observed that is far easier to >levitate lesser quantities than it is to levitate greater ones, we can >combine that observation with our current one, and deduce that not >only was it possible to levitate tradesmen and peasants - and even >their wagons of goods - fairly easily to and from the castle, but that >this was in fact done on a fairly common basis, no doubt weekly if >not in fact daily. >There. Does that satisfy your curiosity? As to that, my friend, and I do so consider you as such as I sincerely hope that you as well consider me thus a friend, I am not satisfied. I, like Tazendra so often portends, do continue to wonder, why it is that our esteemed historian Paarfi as well as Master Brust do never make mention of this transportation by levitation. Now, I agree in your favor, as you are obviously well versed in the topic at hand, that the levitation of castles and all that they could contain is mentioned in brief and unspecificly. Therefore, one must assume that certain things could be ascertained from such knowledge however, no specific mention is made by either of the afore mentioned good gentlemen at any time, that I am humbly aware of, of such movement. I postulate, then, that your conclusion is incomplete, or in other words, based on facts not in evidence. I would, then, ever so modestly, desire you to clarify your source information, as I believe you must have a more convincing argument than my own. Or, do I dare ask, Sir Brust himself to settle my obvious confusion once and for all. . From wikdtrib at bellsouth.net Sun Aug 31 03:11:27 2003 From: wikdtrib at bellsouth.net (Heather Fleming) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 05:11:27 -0500 Subject: dzurlord Message-ID: <000a01c36fa8$3e27f220$87c0d6d1@hppav> I've seen on several sites mention of a work called Dzurlord. I can't seem to find any way of obtaining it. Does anyone have any information about this work and how I might get it? From casey at trinityhartford.org Sun Aug 31 07:15:05 2003 From: casey at trinityhartford.org (Casey Rousseau) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 10:15:05 -0400 Subject: dzurlord In-Reply-To: <000a01c36fa8$3e27f220$87c0d6d1@hppav> Message-ID: <000b01c36fca$4757a8f0$a902a8c0@Prophnt2.local> It was a Choose-your-own-adventure book set in Dragaera. Mssmkt paper. Ca.1984 > -----Original Message----- > From: Heather Fleming [mailto:wikdtrib at bellsouth.net] > Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 6:11 AM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: dzurlord > > > I've seen on several sites mention of a work called Dzurlord. > I can't seem to find any way of obtaining it. Does anyone > have any information about this work and how I might get it? > From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Aug 31 12:00:00 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 12:00:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: floating castles In-Reply-To: <001701c36fa2$03f85fa0$87c0d6d1@hppav> References: <001701c36fa2$03f85fa0$87c0d6d1@hppav> Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Aug 2003, Heather Fleming wrote: > On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 14:13:05 -0500, someone wrote: > > > I'm curious. I may be wrong, as a matter of fact it is quite possible > > that I am, but I think I will ask my question anyway. So, here it is: > > if sorcery was limited before the Interregnum( limited, that is, as > > compared to after the ascension of Zerika the Fourth) in such a way as > > to require citizens to travel by foot or horse or wagon or what have > > you, and it was common for Dragonlords of the e'Drien line to have > > floating castles, how would one get from the ground to said castle and > > back again? Once again, I may be wrong but I was under the impression > > that teleportation was a relatively new skill, even for the likes of > > Sethra Lavode. > > >Rope ladders. > > I find your eloquent, though brief, explanation more plausible than you > might have thought. All other transportation thus far, before the > return of the orb, and as well before the Interregnum, with certain > extreme circumstances aside, was manual, that is to say without the use > of sorcery. Re transport, the expense of procuring the services of a sorcerer would have ruined any pre-Interregnum shipping firm ("Put a lightness spell on this box of dried kethna." "Ok, that'll be one Orb". Later: "Remove the lightness spell on this box of dried kethna." "Ok, that'll be one Orb".) Re "floating" - I agree that I wouldn't want to levitate a mile up - but who says the castles were that high? It seems more likely to me that they were perhaps a hundred meters up - enough to make a nice crunch when falling but not so high that the average noble guest or the assisted (by magic, ropes, or both) Teckla staff would get wind-buffeted or dizzy or frozen on the way up. The parties certainly would have been exclusive and the zing of levitating a hundred meters would help break the ice... From dar at horusinc.com Sun Aug 31 12:35:28 2003 From: dar at horusinc.com (dar) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:35:28 -0500 Subject: floating castles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > I'm curious. I may be wrong, as a matter of fact it is quite possible > > > that I am, but I think I will ask my question anyway. So, here it is: > > > if sorcery was limited before the Interregnum( limited, that is, as > > > compared to after the ascension of Zerika the Fourth) in such a way as > > > to require citizens to travel by foot or horse or wagon or what have > > > you, and it was common for Dragonlords of the e'Drien line to have > > > floating castles, how would one get from the ground to said castle and > > > back again? Once again, I may be wrong but I was under the impression > > > that teleportation was a relatively new skill, even for the likes of > > > Sethra Lavode. > > > > >Rope ladders. > > > > I find your eloquent, though brief, explanation more plausible than you > > might have thought. All other transportation thus far, before the > > return of the orb, and as well before the Interregnum, with certain > > extreme circumstances aside, was manual, that is to say without the use > > of sorcery. > > Re transport, the expense of procuring the services of a sorcerer would > have ruined any pre-Interregnum shipping firm ("Put a lightness spell on > this box of dried kethna." "Ok, that'll be one Orb". Later: "Remove the > lightness spell on this box of dried kethna." "Ok, that'll be one Orb".) > > Re "floating" - I agree that I wouldn't want to levitate a mile up - but > who says the castles were that high? It seems more likely to me that they > were perhaps a hundred meters up - enough to make a nice crunch when > falling but not so high that the average noble guest or the assisted > (by magic, ropes, or both) Teckla staff would get wind-buffeted or dizzy > or frozen on the way up. The parties certainly would have been exclusive > and the zing of levitating a hundred meters would help break the ice... Is it just me having skimmed too quickly through the thread? I would think that if you can levitate a castle you can levitate a rowboat or a barge or a platform or something? Maybe even some gaudy carpet... David From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Sun Aug 31 12:45:59 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 12:45:59 -0700 Subject: floating castles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3dj4lvc4gbgq3aggnidlncnqlesea3e89d@4ax.com> On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:35:28 -0500, you wrote: >> > > I'm curious. I may be wrong, as a matter of fact it is quite possible >> > > that I am, but I think I will ask my question anyway. So, here it is: >> > > if sorcery was limited before the Interregnum( limited, that is, as >> > > compared to after the ascension of Zerika the Fourth) in such a way as >> > > to require citizens to travel by foot or horse or wagon or what have >> > > you, and it was common for Dragonlords of the e'Drien line to have >> > > floating castles, how would one get from the ground to said castle and >> > > back again? Once again, I may be wrong but I was under the impression >> > > that teleportation was a relatively new skill, even for the likes of >> > > Sethra Lavode. >> > >> > >Rope ladders. >> > >> > I find your eloquent, though brief, explanation more plausible than you >> > might have thought. All other transportation thus far, before the >> > return of the orb, and as well before the Interregnum, with certain >> > extreme circumstances aside, was manual, that is to say without the use >> > of sorcery. >> >> Re transport, the expense of procuring the services of a sorcerer would >> have ruined any pre-Interregnum shipping firm ("Put a lightness spell on >> this box of dried kethna." "Ok, that'll be one Orb". Later: "Remove the >> lightness spell on this box of dried kethna." "Ok, that'll be one Orb".) >> >> Re "floating" - I agree that I wouldn't want to levitate a mile up - but >> who says the castles were that high? It seems more likely to me that they >> were perhaps a hundred meters up - enough to make a nice crunch when >> falling but not so high that the average noble guest or the assisted >> (by magic, ropes, or both) Teckla staff would get wind-buffeted or dizzy >> or frozen on the way up. The parties certainly would have been exclusive >> and the zing of levitating a hundred meters would help break the ice... > >Is it just me having skimmed too quickly through the thread? > >I would think that if you can levitate a castle you can levitate a rowboat >or a barge or a platform or something? > >Maybe even some gaudy carpet... > To be honest, my rope ladder comment was purely a joke. Levitation obviously wasn't that big a deal pre-Interregnum. And the castles likely weren't a mile up, since they were, IIRC, quite visible in their gaudiness. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From kknolte at ecity.net Sun Aug 31 09:11:15 2003 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 17:11:15 +0100 Subject: Auden, Fenton re "gya", and a _TLoCB_ spoiler References: <200308302227.h7UMRvYw013677@beg.ugcs.caltech.edu> <20030830225018.GA5012@ofb.net> Message-ID: <3F521E22.572D@ecity.net> Damien Sullivan wrote: > > On Sat, Aug 30, 2003 at 10:23:20PM +0000, jetdragon at comcast.net wrote: > > > don't actually know since I've only been here two weeks). Actually relating > > to the Dragaeran attitude, I seem to recall in _Teckla_ Vlad said that > > Dragaerans don't consider prostitution to be a bad thing, or something > > similar. > > To the annoyance of Cawti when he brought it up... One question - if that's the case, why do the Jhereg run the whorehouses? The Jhereg seem to be most interested in those businesses which the Empire has passed laws against, as those seem to have the best rates of return. Karen From unitcancellation at hotmail.com Sun Aug 31 15:19:23 2003 From: unitcancellation at hotmail.com (Alex Nixon) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 19:19:23 -0300 Subject: Auden, Fenton re "gya", and a _TLoCB_ spoiler Message-ID: Gambling's legal too, but the Jhereg still run it. I seem to recall in one of the books (Dragon?) that Vlad mentions that gambling's taxable, but that the Jhereg bribe the Pheonix guards to look the other way. I would imagine that it's the same way with prostitution. As a side note, the organization probably leaves a few brothels "legit" in order to have an explaination where their income comes from, and also as a place to launder money. In other words, what they're doing is taking a legal and heavily taxed business and turning it into a taxless and thus illegal business. Alex ----Original Message Follows---- From: K Kuhn Reply-To: kknolte at ecity.net To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Auden, Fenton re "gya", and a _TLoCB_ spoiler Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 17:11:15 +0100 Damien Sullivan wrote: > > On Sat, Aug 30, 2003 at 10:23:20PM +0000, jetdragon at comcast.net wrote: > > > don't actually know since I've only been here two weeks). Actually relating > > to the Dragaeran attitude, I seem to recall in _Teckla_ Vlad said that > > Dragaerans don't consider prostitution to be a bad thing, or something > > similar. > > To the annoyance of Cawti when he brought it up... One question - if that's the case, why do the Jhereg run the whorehouses? The Jhereg seem to be most interested in those businesses which the Empire has passed laws against, as those seem to have the best rates of return. Karen _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From fides at kludgeco.com Sun Aug 31 15:35:58 2003 From: fides at kludgeco.com (Fides) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 23:35:58 +0100 Subject: Jhereg and prostitution In-Reply-To: <3F521E22.572D@ecity.net> References: <200308302227.h7UMRvYw013677@beg.ugcs.caltech.edu> <20030830225018.GA5012@ofb.net> <3F521E22.572D@ecity.net> Message-ID: <3F52784E.9050305@kludgeco.com> K Kuhn wrote: > Damien Sullivan wrote: > >>On Sat, Aug 30, 2003 at 10:23:20PM +0000, jetdragon at comcast.net wrote: >> >> >>>don't actually know since I've only been here two weeks). Actually relating >>>to the Dragaeran attitude, I seem to recall in _Teckla_ Vlad said that >>>Dragaerans don't consider prostitution to be a bad thing, or something >>>similar. >> >>To the annoyance of Cawti when he brought it up... > > > One question - if that's the case, why do the Jhereg run the > whorehouses? The Jhereg seem to be most interested in those businesses > which the Empire has passed laws against, as those seem to have the best > rates of return. Or the ones that are heavily taxed. It could well be that it is like gambling (and possibly all such 'luxury entatainments') and the government takes a fairly high cut from the 'legal' establishments. Cawti's issue may indicate that easterners/humans have a different opinion on such thing than Dragaerans or that the types of brothals you get in the easterner quarter are the nasty type where it is little more than enforced slavery rather than the 'life-style choice' type brothals one would hope for/expect where it is seen as a valid profession. Or a combination of the two. ;-) Fides From TimN at rcn.com Sun Aug 31 18:27:14 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 21:27:14 -0400 Subject: Prostitution, was Re: Auden, Fenton re "gya" References: Message-ID: <001a01c37028$2d6b10e0$d916fea9@ananda> I am also sure that the less reputable brothels are under Jhereg control - because in a society with more advanced (or less so, depending on if the person you speak to is liberal or conservative) morals, conditions in brothels are likely regulated by the state. So you have bad working conditions at the cheap facilities, which is, i'm sure, what Cawti was objecting to -- no the action of prostitution itself. - T From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Aug 31 19:05:45 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 19:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Prostitution, was Re: Auden, Fenton re "gya" In-Reply-To: <001a01c37028$2d6b10e0$d916fea9@ananda> References: <001a01c37028$2d6b10e0$d916fea9@ananda> Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Aug 2003, Timothy Nelson wrote: > I am also sure that the less reputable brothels are under Jhereg control - > because in a society with more advanced (or less so, depending on if the > person you speak to is liberal or conservative) morals, conditions in > brothels are likely regulated by the state. > > So you have bad working conditions at the cheap facilities, which is, i'm > sure, what Cawti was objecting to -- no the action of prostitution itself. Politics aside (and I think the above l/c categorization is too facile), you are I believe presenting Vlad's view. Cawti says, "How much does it help to give fair treatment to people who are selling their bodies?" (_Phoenix, pg 72.) As an aside, when someone in this thread wrote that Vlad's saying Dragaerans thought prostitution was ok annoyed Cawti, I thought at first the implication was that Vlad had asked Cawti if she minded him negotiating affection from time to time... From davids at kithrup.com Sun Aug 31 19:13:41 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 19:13:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Concerning the Great Sea of Chaos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Aug 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >I thought we knew where the Sea was, roughly - I had thought south, If it was mentioned, I would greatly appreciate the textev. >Anyway, it's something that one can wade into if foolhardy, hence >likely not in the middle of a prosaic ocean. Nope, the one that can be waded into is the Lesser Sea, which is indeed inland. > (I still don't understand about Orlaan in this context - she seems >to be doing direct Elder Sorcery, not stone-mediated.) Note that Orlaan doesn't wade into it herself. And we don't know that her sorcerous power is not stone-mediated. For example, note that Vlad is able to create a chaos-stone from the amorphia; perhaps this is what she was doing when she "came to an understanding" with the Lesser Sea. As I understand it, what the e'Kieron line can do is actually create amorphia, and turn that into stones which can then be used to perform certain types of Elder Sorcery. But creating a stone from already existing amorphia may be possible for non-e'Kierons. > Anyway, we know that features of Dragaeran topography are >non-natural - the Eastern mountain range, Dzur Mountain Dzur Mountain I will concede has been mentioned as a possibility, but not as a certainty. But the Eastern Mountain range? > - so I don't feel so concerned about the (possibly there-be-dragons) >Maelstrom. But there is a difference between a mountain and the Maelstrom: The Mountain, if created, was the result of great forces exterted once. The Maelstrom sounds like it results from far greater forces that are still active. Where do these forces come from, and why are they there? If they are not the result of the Great Sea of Chaos, that is. >Also I don't see any ocean-Sea interaction at all, as we know the >Lesser Sea just inexplicably sits there, a big blob of Universal >Solvent not solving. Well, the Lesser Sea *doesn't* just sit there. It flows and ebbs and glows different colors in different places, and occasionally lashes out. Apparantly it refrains from solving because the gods damn well keep it from doing so, using the Orb. If it were in or under water, those fluxions might well result in what is seen from the outside as the Maelstrom. From davids at kithrup.com Sun Aug 31 19:33:14 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 19:33:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: dzurlord In-Reply-To: <000b01c36fca$4757a8f0$a902a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Aug 2003, Casey Rousseau wrote: >It was a Choose-your-own-adventure book set in Dragaera. Mssmkt paper. >Ca.1984 This page: http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/ref/books.html States that: Dzurlord is really only noteable for the introduction written by Steven Brust. The rest of the text is not his direct work. This book is out of print but you can read the introduction here. (where "here" is a link to the following page:) http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/treats/dzurlordintro.html From davids at kithrup.com Sun Aug 31 19:37:55 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 19:37:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Concerning the Great Sea of Chaos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: >On Sun, 31 Aug 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > >>I thought we knew where the Sea was, roughly - I had thought south, > >If it was mentioned, I would greatly appreciate the textev. And since I just looked at the text of the introduction to Dzurlord, I see that it says: A few hundred thousand years ago, or so the story goes, an accident happened to the godlike Jenoine who lived on Dragaera and whose genetic experiments led to the tribes which eventually lead to the Seventeen Houses. What remains is a large Sea of Chaos, in the northeastern part of the Empire. Bother. There goes a lovely theory, shot to little tiny pieces. Unless, of course, the intro to Dzurlord is not canonical. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Aug 31 22:42:49 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 22:42:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Concerning the Great Sea of Chaos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > On Sun, 31 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > > >On Sun, 31 Aug 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > > >>I thought we knew where the Sea was, roughly - I had thought south, > > > >If it was mentioned, I would greatly appreciate the textev. > > And since I just looked at the text of the introduction to Dzurlord, I > see that it says: > > A few hundred thousand years ago, or so the story goes, an > accident happened to the godlike Jenoine who lived on Dragaera and > whose genetic experiments led to the tribes which eventually lead > to the Seventeen Houses. What remains is a large Sea of Chaos, in > the northeastern part of the Empire. > > Bother. There goes a lovely theory, shot to little tiny pieces. > Unless, of course, the intro to Dzurlord is not canonical. I wasn't responding since AFB, but anyway I have a strong impression that Paarfi introduces the purple stones in _FHYA_ as being found on the shore of the Greater Sea. Also I think you're misguided re wading only into the Lesser Sea but can't prove it. Yet. From mam at theworld.com Mon Sep 1 13:36:47 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 16:36:47 -0400 Subject: Worried About ... (LOCB Spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Somebody wrote: #>> Vlad spends something like three years making a living by being "robbed" #by #>> bandits, so maybe he has met Piro and Co. and maybe that encounter had #>> something to do with great weights and parrying swords with an empty #hand... (This has probably already been covered -- I'm in "visit-the-list-occasionally" mode.) Timing is everything. I haven't read LOCB, but does it extend as far as Vlad's career, which begins about 250 years after the end of the Interregnum? ( http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/how-long.html#Interregnum ) -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Mon Sep 1 14:21:07 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 14:21:07 -0700 Subject: dzurlord In-Reply-To: References: <000b01c36fca$4757a8f0$a902a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 19:33:14 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >On Sun, 31 Aug 2003, Casey Rousseau wrote: > >>It was a Choose-your-own-adventure book set in Dragaera. Mssmkt paper. >>Ca.1984 > >This page: > > http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/ref/books.html > >States that: > > Dzurlord is really only noteable for the introduction written by > Steven Brust. The rest of the text is not his direct work. This > book is out of print but you can read the introduction here. > >(where "here" is a link to the following page:) > > http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/treats/dzurlordintro.html Also, Steve recently said that the intro isn't canonical, IIRC. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From davids at kithrup.com Mon Sep 1 14:55:54 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 14:55:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: dzurlord In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Sep 2003, lazarus wrote: >On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 19:33:14 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: > >> >>This page: >> >> http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/ref/books.html >> >>States that: >> >> Dzurlord is really only noteable for the introduction written by >> Steven Brust. The rest of the text is not his direct work. This >> book is out of print but you can read the introduction here. >> >>(where "here" is a link to the following page:) >> >> http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/treats/dzurlordintro.html > >Also, Steve recently said that the intro isn't canonical, IIRC. > > No, he said : ] Well, not having established the canon, I don't think it's fair for ] me to say. I never said that bits and pieces of Jarhead and Yentil ] were not canonical. ] Myself, I tend to prefer to see artillery used to support infantry ] action, but it really depends on the technology of the field piece ] in question. Which is only slightly better than "Tee hee" in terms of its information content. Bah. I nearly think he is indulging his famous tendency towards being deliberately obfuscatory. From davids at kithrup.com Mon Sep 1 15:07:01 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 15:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Worried About ... (LOCB Spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Sep 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: >Somebody wrote: [ Vlad and bandits and Piro ] >(This has probably already been covered -- I'm in >"visit-the-list-occasionally" mode.) > >Timing is everything. I haven't read LOCB, but does it extend as far >as Vlad's career, which begins about 250 years after the end of the >Interregnum? Nope. But note that /The Viscount of Adrilankha/ does not end in this volume. It would be amusing if a latter chapter (perhaps the epilogue?) of /Sethra Lavode/ told of the "known" events surrounding the recorpusification (and revivification, of course) of Aliera e'Kieron. Would the common knowledge even include the presence of an Easterner Jhereg? Would the details of how the staff got into Sethra's and Morrolan's possession include the fact that it was stolen from out of the Athyra sorceror's house? From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Mon Sep 1 14:59:40 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 14:59:40 -0700 Subject: dzurlord In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <09g7lvc9sgh2r8ehvne9gt3alfpd8k3442@4ax.com> On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 14:55:54 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >On Mon, 1 Sep 2003, lazarus wrote: > >>On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 19:33:14 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >> >>> >>>This page: >>> >>> http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/ref/books.html >>> >>>States that: >>> >>> Dzurlord is really only noteable for the introduction written by >>> Steven Brust. The rest of the text is not his direct work. This >>> book is out of print but you can read the introduction here. >>> >>>(where "here" is a link to the following page:) >>> >>> http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/treats/dzurlordintro.html >> >>Also, Steve recently said that the intro isn't canonical, IIRC. >> >> > >No, he said : > >] Well, not having established the canon, I don't think it's fair for >] me to say. I never said that bits and pieces of Jarhead and Yentil >] were not canonical. > >] Myself, I tend to prefer to see artillery used to support infantry >] action, but it really depends on the technology of the field piece >] in question. Well, poo. > >Which is only slightly better than "Tee hee" in terms of its >information content. Bah. I nearly think he is indulging his >famous tendency towards being deliberately obfuscatory. Yup. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Mon Sep 1 15:01:10 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 15:01:10 -0700 Subject: Worried About ... (LOCB Spoilers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 15:07:01 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >On Mon, 1 Sep 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > >>Somebody wrote: > > [ Vlad and bandits and Piro ] > >>(This has probably already been covered -- I'm in >>"visit-the-list-occasionally" mode.) >> >>Timing is everything. I haven't read LOCB, but does it extend as far >>as Vlad's career, which begins about 250 years after the end of the >>Interregnum? > >Nope. But note that /The Viscount of Adrilankha/ does not end in this >volume. > >It would be amusing if a latter chapter (perhaps the epilogue?) of >/Sethra Lavode/ told of the "known" events surrounding the >recorpusification (and revivification, of course) of Aliera e'Kieron. >Would the common knowledge even include the presence of an Easterner >Jhereg? Would the details of how the staff got into Sethra's and >Morrolan's possession include the fact that it was stolen from out of >the Athyra sorceror's house? > For some reason, I think the official record would prefer the term "recovered". With "the assistance of a friend." -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From rone at ennui.org Mon Sep 1 15:19:30 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (roger n. tospott) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 15:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: started rereading _TPotD_ In-Reply-To: <53BE8115.73393DDB.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030901221930.3F36426C45@boredom.ennui.org> [yes, ancient stuff] Gaertk at aol.com writes: What bugs me is how Teldra [p. 76] knew his name was Morrolan in the first place. Miska addresses him as "Dark Star" and the topic of languages doesn't come up until later. Well, Chapter the Fifth is entitled "How Arra Prevented Aging And Morrolan Discovered His Growing Notoriety." So i would take that "notoriety" implies that his name had become well-known in the region. rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From rone at ennui.org Mon Sep 1 15:51:39 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (roger n. tospott) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 15:51:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: while cursing amazon re the non-release of _TLoCB_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030901225139.19D1726C32@boredom.ennui.org> Philip Hart writes: The Orb is not a line-of-sight device; plus I believe sorcerous waves can be transmitted through objects - consider the Quick Road. I think you surely mean sorcerous packets. rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From Raellew at aol.com Mon Sep 1 17:15:52 2003 From: Raellew at aol.com (Raellew at aol.com) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 20:15:52 EDT Subject: The Sword and the Dagger Message-ID: <18f.1ef32a73.2c853b38@aol.com> I've been slowly making my way through Suetonius's _Lives of the Caesars_, and came across this passage in the section on Caligula: Then giving up or postponing his triumph, he entered the city on his birthday in an ovation; and within four months he perished, having dared great crimes and meditating still greater ones. For he had made up his mind to move to Antium, and later to Alexandria, after first slaying the noblest members of the two orders. That no one may doubt this, let me say that among his private papers two books were found with different titles, one called _The Sword_ and the other _The Dagger_, and both containing the names and marks of identification of those whom he had doomed to death. ...and couldn't help being reminded of a certain pair of assassins. Intentional allusion, or coincidence? I'm leaning toward coincidence -- "The Sword" and "The Dagger" are likely enough names for a Dragaeran/Easterner team, one of whom uses a greatsword and the other, knives -- but it would be cool if it wasn't. Rae From tsarren at alyra.org Mon Sep 1 21:56:30 2003 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Tsarren) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 23:56:30 -0500 Subject: Auden, Fenton re "gya", and a _TLoCB_ spoiler In-Reply-To: References: <200308302228.h7UMRwch013257@nospam1.slac.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <20030902045630.GD1024@Durandal> On Sat, Aug 30, 2003 at 03:43:40PM -0700, Philip Hart wrote: > On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 jetdragon at comcast.net wrote: > > > J A 'Dusty' Sayers wrote: > > >> I would expect to get more women visiting brothels in Dragaera > > >> because > > >> they don't seem to have the same repressive/guilt based religious > > >> historical background that you get in RL (and accidental pregnancy > > >> doesn't seem to be a problem). > > It seems to me there may simply be biological aspects to women's sexuality > - say slower arousal or less automatic sexual respose - that might lead to > fewer female customers in brothels despite complete social equality > between men and women. And note that there is still some residual > chivalry apparent in the Paarfiad - e.g., women can chastise servants. Hmm. If I lived in a society that had professional brothels, and could afford them, and didn't have any partners at the time, the fact that I am female and it takes me about ten minutes to get aroused, like any other woman, would not have any effect on my decision to patronize an establishment. But that's just me. ;) As far as differences in libido, I am under the impression that women in their early to late 30's experience a peak in sex drive that is comparable to the one that men experience from puberty until, what, mid-20's? So at any given time, assuming Dragaeran biology is similar, you're going to have segments of both the male and female populations who have the drive to seek a brothel. Such is my speculation, at least. Anon, Kat From rone at ennui.org Mon Sep 1 22:02:58 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (roger n. tospott) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) In-Reply-To: <20030819175142.GB1982@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20030902050258.4837326C35@boredom.ennui.org> Matthew Hunter writes: On Tue, Aug 19, 2003 at 11:16:54AM -0500, Brian Vanskyock wrote: > this is the coolest mailing list ever!!! Wait'll you see the movie version. With subsequent novelization done by the hack du jour. rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From rone at ennui.org Mon Sep 1 22:15:42 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (roger n. tospott) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:15:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030902051542.C197826C35@boredom.ennui.org> Philip Hart writes: On the subject, I would like to once again assert that Morrolan's taking Blackwand into the Paths, when he fully expects to be staying, is an annoying flaw in _Taltos_, which if anyone can explain away I'd be grateful. Verra's his soulmate. I'm sure he figured she'd save his bacon somehow. rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From rone at ennui.org Mon Sep 1 22:34:13 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (roger n. tospott) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:34:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: House Animals In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030820135327.01d52ec0@localhost> Message-ID: <20030902053413.683A426C35@boredom.ennui.org> Steven Brust writes: At 01:30 AM 8/19/2003 -0700, lazarus wrote: >Am I remembering correctly, that you described the tsalmoth as a giant >land oyster? Actually, a six-foot diameter snail. However, I was not being entirely serious. Well, can you give us an estimation on how serious you were? rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From rone at ennui.org Mon Sep 1 23:01:20 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (roger n. tospott) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 23:01:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: dzurlord In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030902060120.087C826C34@boredom.ennui.org> David Silberstein writes: On Mon, 1 Sep 2003, lazarus wrote: >Also, Steve recently said that the intro isn't canonical, IIRC. No, he said : ] Well, not having established the canon, I don't think it's fair for ] me to say. I never said that bits and pieces of Jarhead and Yentil ] were not canonical. ] Myself, I tend to prefer to see artillery used to support infantry ] action, but it really depends on the technology of the field piece ] in question. Before that message, he did say: ] At 08:05 PM 8/18/2003 -0700, Hans Schweitzer wrote: ] >That introduction was informative. ]Not, however, canonical, as far as I know. rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From dr.elmo at whiterose.org Tue Sep 2 07:12:26 2003 From: dr.elmo at whiterose.org (Greg Morrow) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 09:12:26 -0500 Subject: Reading FHYA (some possible spoilers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030902090617.021ee128@mail.whiterose.org> David Silberstein wondered aloud to the group: >You seem to have entirely misunderstood Aliera's nature. She doesn't >care in the least for convention or propriety. As long as it is not >actually forbidden, she'll do it - and quite often even if it *is* >forbidden - e.g., Elder Sorcery - she'll do it if she wants to. > >She is what is quite often described as "willful". > >If she finds Mario attractive, she will, without a shadow of a doubt, >boink him regardless of his House. How the heck was she confirmed as Heir by the Dragon Council? It would seem that the Dragons place a high premium on propriety and status. Even Morrolan snaps at Vlad when he gets too familiar. Of course, to answer my own question, I suppose Aliera would have dueled anyone on the Council who suggested that she wasn't fit to be Heir. -- "Since this was written before last week it's probably very foolish of me to imagine that any of it could possibly still be in continuity - this is the DCU we're talking about, after all."--Rob Hansen mailto:Dr.Elmo at whiterose.org http://www.whiterose.org/dr.elmo/blog/ From alexx at TheWorld.com Tue Sep 2 08:36:10 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:36:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: floating castles In-Reply-To: <003101c36fa2$53e35ba0$87c0d6d1@hppav> from "Heather Fleming" at Aug 31, 2003 04:29:06 AM Message-ID: <200309021536.LAA13072371@shell.TheWorld.com> If you can make a castle float permanently, surely it would be no great stretch to make the local equivalent of a freight elevator. Just a stable slab of rock that will float either up or down along a prescribed path, and can be triggered by some simple mechanism. At least, that's what I would have done. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx [On Oscar Wilde:] "When he started going in for "rough trade," he used to tell intimates that he was "feasting with panthers." I used to think that was hyperbole until you consider what a starving thug would resemble when presented with a champagne supper in a private room at one of the better restaurants. -- Dave Sim in correspondence with Alan Moore about _From Hell_ From alexx at TheWorld.com Tue Sep 2 08:40:24 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:40:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Concerning the Great Sea of Chaos In-Reply-To: from "David Silberstein" at Aug 31, 2003 07:13:41 PM Message-ID: <200309021540.LAA14877101@shell.TheWorld.com> [Discussion of the Great Sea possibly being the cause of the Maelstrom snipped. For the record, I've long thought that it was.] > Well, the Lesser Sea *doesn't* just sit there. It flows and ebbs and > glows different colors in different places, and occasionally lashes > out. Apparantly it refrains from solving because the gods damn well > keep it from doing so, using the Orb. Why "using the Orb"? They held in the Greater Sea somehow, and had no Orb to work with. (Well, I suppose they *might* have done, what with living in non-linear time and all, but it strikes me as inelegant.) Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx The word "masturbate" was censored out of one of the stories. He [Neil Gaiman] said Karen Berger told him, "It is official policy. People don't masturbate in the DC universe." To which Neil replied, "That's why they all wear funny costumes." From alexx at TheWorld.com Tue Sep 2 08:43:21 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:43:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Concerning the Great Sea of Chaos In-Reply-To: from "David Silberstein" at Aug 31, 2003 07:37:55 PM Message-ID: <200309021543.LAA15125555@shell.TheWorld.com> > And since I just looked at the text of the introduction to Dzurlord, I > see that it says: > > A few hundred thousand years ago, or so the story goes, an > accident happened to the godlike Jenoine who lived on Dragaera and > whose genetic experiments led to the tribes which eventually lead > to the Seventeen Houses. What remains is a large Sea of Chaos, in > the northeastern part of the Empire. > > Bother. There goes a lovely theory, shot to little tiny pieces. > Unless, of course, the intro to Dzurlord is not canonical. The non-canonical answer works. Alternatively, if it's big enough, it could be to both east *and* west of the empire. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without indivdiual responsibility. -- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_ From feaelin at kemenel.org Tue Sep 2 09:18:01 2003 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Iain E. Davis) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:18:01 -0500 Subject: floating castles In-Reply-To: <200309021536.LAA13072371@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <003601c3716d$c83e83e0$6501a8c0@Khaavren> > From: Alexx S Kay [mailto:alexx at TheWorld.com] > If you can make a castle float permanently, surely it would > be no great stretch to make the local equivalent of a freight > elevator. Just a stable slab of rock that will float either > up or down along a prescribed path, and can be triggered by > some simple mechanism. At least, that's what I would have done. Or in the same vein, not use magic at all. Simply have a elevator with Teckla with big muscles to provide the "power" through a pulley-system. From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Sep 2 09:21:24 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:21:24 -0500 Subject: floating castles In-Reply-To: <003601c3716d$c83e83e0$6501a8c0@Khaavren> References: <200309021536.LAA13072371@shell.TheWorld.com> <003601c3716d$c83e83e0$6501a8c0@Khaavren> Message-ID: <20030902162124.GC9302@infodancer.org> On Tue, Sep 02, 2003 at 11:18:01AM -0500, "Iain E. Davis" wrote: > > From: Alexx S Kay [mailto:alexx at TheWorld.com] > > If you can make a castle float permanently, surely it would > > be no great stretch to make the local equivalent of a freight > > elevator. Just a stable slab of rock that will float either > > up or down along a prescribed path, and can be triggered by > > some simple mechanism. At least, that's what I would have done. > Or in the same vein, not use magic at all. Simply have a elevator with > Teckla with big muscles to provide the "power" through a pulley-system. No. There is too much risk of creating Conan with that method. (See the "wheel of pain"). -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue Sep 2 11:12:08 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:12:08 -0700 Subject: Reading FHYA (some possible spoilers) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030902090617.021ee128@mail.whiterose.org> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030902090617.021ee128@mail.whiterose.org> Message-ID: <20030902181208.GA21152@ofb.net> On Tue, Sep 02, 2003 at 09:12:26AM -0500, Greg Morrow wrote: > >If she finds Mario attractive, she will, without a shadow of a doubt, > >boink him regardless of his House. > > How the heck was she confirmed as Heir by the Dragon Council? It would How would they know? -xx- Damien X-) From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Tue Sep 2 16:40:54 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 19:40:54 -0400 Subject: Worried About ... (LOCB Spoilers) In-Reply-To: References: <349BF36F.0CAE3D64.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030902234054.GA3325@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Thu, Aug 28, 2003 at 11:47:33PM -0700, David Silberstein wrote: SPOILER SPACE > On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > I am worried about Tazendra, because if she were still alive, > > Paarfi's career would be much shorter (she's not known for > > leaving her victims revivifyable). . . . > You have more reason to worry because Sethra Lavode, who has no reason > to lie, has told Vlad that there are no other Lavodes. After reading LOCB, I can see a different possibility. As a reward for services rendered, Sethra Lavode accepts Tazendras retirement and blurs her identity such that she can marry outside her house. -- "The reason we come up with new versions is not to fix bugs. It's absolutely not. It's the stupidest reason to buy a new version I ever heard." -- Bill Gates, 1995 interview in Focus Magazine (Germany) From davids at kithrup.com Tue Sep 2 23:06:12 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 23:06:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Two Words on Dragon Heirs In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030902090617.021ee128@mail.whiterose.org> Message-ID: Minor Spoilers, here and there... On Tue, 2 Sep 2003, Greg Morrow wrote: >David Silberstein wondered aloud to the group: > >You seem to have entirely misunderstood Aliera's nature. She doesn't > >care in the least for convention or propriety. As long as it is not > >actually forbidden, she'll do it - and quite often even if it *is* > >forbidden - e.g., Elder Sorcery - she'll do it if she wants to. > > > >She is what is quite often described as "willful". > > > >If she finds Mario attractive, she will, without a shadow of a doubt, > >boink him regardless of his House. > >How the heck was she confirmed as Heir by the Dragon Council? Well, she *is* the daughter of the previous Heir. Whatever it was that allowed him to become Heir presumably still holds for her. > It would seem that the Dragons place a high premium on propriety >and status. There is a difference between propriety and status which is especially important when considering Dragons: Propriety means doing those actions that one's peers consider proper, and doing nothing that one's peers consider improper. For Lyorns, status is directly and strongly linked to propriety. For Dragons, status means demanding respect *regardless* of one's actions. There is a link to propriety, true, but it is not as strong as the demand for respect itself, which I would guess is founded on the personal and/or military strength of the Dragon concerned. Otherwise, Adron & Aliera would never have studied Elder Sorcery (or if they *had*, they would most certainly would not have flaunted said knowledge & artifacts pertaining thereto in the capitol itself), Aliera's room would not have been searched, and Adron would not have caused the Disaster. I have been pondering the matter of propriety, though, and I think that given what we have seen in /Yendi/, Dragon Heirs do seem to be held to a higher standard of behavior than that of any other Dragon. With Aliera, perhaps being able to take whatever lovers she pleased was the true incentive to her to find another valid Heir to take her place. Note that the scene in /Jhereg/, where Steve said that she had just been with Mario, came *after* she was no longer the Dragon Heir. Something to ponder, perhaps? I have also been wondering about Norathar. Was she just the Sword of the Jhereg before she met Cawti, or did they become a team only afterwards? What did they do besides kill people for money (note that Vlad runs an area as his cover)? Is it even remotely possible that Norathar was in fact a tag in a brothel before Cawti inspired her to do something different with her life? That, or for that matter, Cawti & Norathar *both* being tags, would certainly help explain Cawti's antipathy to prostitution. > Even Morrolan snaps at Vlad when he gets too familiar. True. As a Dragon, he demands respect regardless of how proper his actions are. I have also been wondering about Morrolan being tentatively confirmed as the Heir by Zerika. She mentions other potential Heirs who were killed in the Disaster; presumably at least one that she thinks is dead is Aliera. But I have been wondering how the Heirship swings over to Morrolan - was it decided that the e'Drien line was the nextmost acceptable after the e'Kieron (and he's the head of the e'Drien line), or does he inherit that from his mom (whose name we still don't know, I think), since she was an e'Kieron daughter? Or perhaps both? >Of course, to answer my own question, I suppose Aliera would have >dueled anyone on the Council who suggested that she wasn't fit to be >Heir. I am not sure it would have been quite that simple, but there's a lot we don't know about how the Dragon Council works. From davids at kithrup.com Tue Sep 2 23:15:17 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 23:15:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Concerning the Great Sea of Chaos In-Reply-To: <200309021540.LAA14877101@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Sep 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: >[Discussion of the Great Sea possibly being the cause of the Maelstrom >snipped. For the record, I've long thought that it was.] > >> Well, the Lesser Sea *doesn't* just sit there. It flows and ebbs and >> glows different colors in different places, and occasionally lashes >> out. Apparantly it refrains from solving because the gods damn well >> keep it from doing so, using the Orb. > >Why "using the Orb"? They held in the Greater Sea somehow, and had no >Orb to work with. (Well, I suppose they *might* have done, what with >living in non-linear time and all, but it strikes me as inelegant.) > When I wrote that, I had just re-read the bits in /Issola/ that talked about the Greater Sea and the Lesser Sea, and the Orb - an artifact of trellanstone - being used to control amorphia. Perhaps the gods used the trellanstone that would eventually become the Orb to control the amorphia of the Greater Sea before it *was* an Orb (and still do so even after it has been fashioned into an Orb, and therefore necessarily use it to control the Lesser Sea). Or so I understood Sethra's comments. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Sep 2 23:15:43 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 23:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Two Words on Dragon Heirs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Sep 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > > On Tue, 2 Sep 2003, Greg Morrow wrote: > > >How the heck was she confirmed as Heir by the Dragon Council? > > Well, she *is* the daughter of the previous Heir. Whatever > it was that allowed him to become Heir presumably still > holds for her. One would think that whatever it was that made him non-Heir would reflect on his daughter's merit... > Is it even remotely possible that Norathar was in fact a tag > in a brothel before Cawti inspired her to do something > different with her life? That, or for that matter, Cawti & > Norathar *both* being tags, would certainly help explain > Cawti's antipathy to prostitution. Or Norathar is gay and was visiting Cawti's workplace. Or v.v. Or a whole list of other possibilities that might well lead to permanent deHeiring... It seems to me that Cawti's position is sufficiently rational to stand unexplained. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Sep 2 23:22:01 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 23:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Concerning the Great Sea of Chaos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Sep 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > >Why "using the Orb"? They held in the Greater Sea somehow, and had no > >Orb to work with. (Well, I suppose they *might* have done, what with > >living in non-linear time and all, but it strikes me as inelegant.) > > > > When I wrote that, I had just re-read the bits in /Issola/ that talked > about the Greater Sea and the Lesser Sea, and the Orb - an artifact of > trellanstone - being used to control amorphia. I thought this was considered more or less miraculous - am I hallucinating? Also I was under the impression that the Gods were a consequence of the Great Sea as much as v.v. - and that the whole thing was accidental enough that no One would have been prepared to bell it. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Sep 2 23:42:32 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 23:42:32 -0700 Subject: Great Weapons References: <20030902051542.C197826C35@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <003501c371e6$8daf5280$f700000a@steve> ----- Original Message ----- From: "roger n. tospott" To: "SKZB List" Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 10:15 PM Subject: Re: Great Weapons > Philip Hart writes: > On the subject, I would like to once again assert that Morrolan's taking > Blackwand into the Paths, when he fully expects to be staying, is an > annoying flaw in _Taltos_, which if anyone can explain away I'd be > grateful. > Just an oversight on my part. I completely forgot that, when going into great danger, someone who owns a powerful artifact that might save his life will naturally leave this artifact behind. What was I thinking? From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Sep 2 23:43:47 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 23:43:47 -0700 Subject: House Animals References: <20030902053413.683A426C35@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <003c01c371e6$ba0655e0$f700000a@steve> ----- Original Message ----- From: "roger n. tospott" To: "SKZB List" Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 10:34 PM Subject: Re: House Animals > Steven Brust writes: > At 01:30 AM 8/19/2003 -0700, lazarus wrote: > >Am I remembering correctly, that you described the tsalmoth as a giant > >land oyster? > Actually, a six-foot diameter snail. > However, I was not being entirely serious. > > Well, can you give us an estimation on how serious you were? > > I'm delighted to be able to give you an answer to this question. The answer is no. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Sep 2 23:56:44 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 23:56:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: <003501c371e6$8daf5280$f700000a@steve> References: <20030902051542.C197826C35@boredom.ennui.org> <003501c371e6$8daf5280$f700000a@steve> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Sep 2003, Steven Brust wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "roger n. tospott" > To: "SKZB List" > Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 10:15 PM > Subject: Re: Great Weapons > > > > Philip Hart writes: > > On the subject, I would like to once again assert that Morrolan's taking > > Blackwand into the Paths, when he fully expects to be staying, is an > > annoying flaw in _Taltos_, which if anyone can explain away I'd be > > grateful. > > > > Just an oversight on my part. I completely forgot that, when going into > great danger, someone who owns a powerful artifact that might save his life > will naturally leave this artifact behind. What was I thinking? While it seems like setting myself up as Job to continue the argument, Morrolan, to quote someone I tend to agree with, "fully expects to be staying." The main use for Blackwand I can see would be to slay all the Gods and destroy the control system of the Paths so he could walk out alive. As it happens, he makes no use of Blackwand per se. I suppose that on the other hand in extremis M could have given BW to Aliera, who no doubt would have been an acceptable substitute. That likely refutes my main objection, which is that he was depriving the good guys of one of their main weapons against the J. Of course A would have insisted on staying, as he should have foreseen. On the other hand, no doubt the Gods could have shipped Blackwand back to Sethra somehow (some way that wouldn't have worked for the Orb...) in that case, and perhaps suitable wielders of BW abound... I'm still somewhat skeptical. From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Wed Sep 3 00:18:18 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 07:18:18 +0000 Subject: Great Weapons Message-ID: Philip Hart wrote: >On Tue, 2 Sep 2003, Steven Brust wrote: > > > Philip Hart writes: > > > On the subject, I would like to once again assert that Morrolan's >taking > > > Blackwand into the Paths, when he fully expects to be staying, is an > > > annoying flaw in _Taltos_, which if anyone can explain away I'd be > > > grateful. > > > > Just an oversight on my part. I completely forgot that, when going into > > great danger, someone who owns a powerful artifact that might save his >life > > will naturally leave this artifact behind. What was I thinking? > >While it seems like setting myself up as Job to continue the argument, >Morrolan, to quote someone I tend to agree with, "fully expects to be >staying." The main use for Blackwand I can see would be to slay all the >Gods and destroy the control system of the Paths so he could walk out >alive. As it happens, he makes no use of Blackwand per se. I think that even if M did not think that he would be able to come back, he had a task to perform in the paths helping Vlad and therefore it would be useful to bring it, i.e. to fight against several dead dragonlords. _________________________________________________________________ Accede al romance online. Descubre gente que busca a otra gente en MSN Amor & Amistad. http://match.msn.es/ From davids at kithrup.com Wed Sep 3 00:21:49 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 00:21:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Two Words on Dragon Heirs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Sep 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > >On Tue, 2 Sep 2003, David Silberstein wrote: >> >> On Tue, 2 Sep 2003, Greg Morrow wrote: >> >> >How the heck was she confirmed as Heir by the Dragon Council? >> >> Well, she *is* the daughter of the previous Heir. Whatever >> it was that allowed him to become Heir presumably still >> holds for her. >One would think that whatever it was that made him non-Heir >would reflect on his daughter's merit... > I Am Not A Dragon, but here's how I think the argument in the Dragon Council runs: Despite the fact that actions by Adron e'Kieron led directly to the Disaster that destroyed Dragaera City and surrounding environs, he was the Heir, and his lineage still retains the Heirship, assuming anyone of his lineage can be found. What arguments can be marshalled against him? The fact that he used Elder Sorcery? Pah. Elder Sorcery may be proscribed by the Empire, but the Empire does not speak for House Dragon. Sorcery of any sort is not automatically dishonorable. All that matters is how that sorcery was used. Adron may have used Elder Sorcery as part of his campaign. So we ask, how was that sorcery used? And we find that the answer (aided by testimony from Sethra Lavode, whom we think may be considered an expert in the subject) is that he used the forces he raised bravely and skillfully, and directed them in a manuever which was bold and clever. The possibility exists that had he succeeded, he would have in fact forced the Cycle itself to change in order to acknowledge him. Yet, you point out, he failed, and in fact, failed in such a way that caused many deaths and enormous destruction. We must respond: death and destruction are always the probable results of any military campaign. What is important, as far as we are concerned, is that he brought about the death and destruction of the forces opposing him. The collateral damage caused is regrettable, but does not reflect on Adron's character. Furthermore, he met his own death, brought about by the forces *he* raised (rather than those raised by his enemies), with bravery and equanimity and gallantry (and in this we have the testimony of the Lyorn Temma, Duke of Arylle, whom we think may be considered an expert in the subject). Therefore, our only conclusion is that Adron e'Kieron, whatever he may have done, whatever else he may have been, was the true heart and soul of the House of the Dragon. Take it with a grain of salt, but I think that that's the way they thought. > >> Is it even remotely possible that Norathar was in fact a tag >> in a brothel before Cawti inspired her to do something >> different with her life? That, or for that matter, Cawti & >> Norathar *both* being tags, would certainly help explain >> Cawti's antipathy to prostitution. > >Or Norathar is gay and was visiting Cawti's workplace. Or v.v. Or a >whole list of other possibilities that might well lead to permanent >deHeiring... > >It seems to me that Cawti's position is sufficiently rational to >stand unexplained. > Oh, I nearly agree. I just thought it was an interesting line of speculation to consider. Especially in regards with what Dragaerans, and specifically Dragons, consider to be honorable or otherwise. Another side-thought on the subject was that working as a prostitute might be considered not dishonorable if the tag does so for what is for her only a brief fraction of her lifetime. So if she turns tricks for 50 years and then uses her profits to gain entry into the Left Hand of the Jhereg (or whatever), it's sort-of like an Earth-human becoming a working girl for a couple of years to put herself through college... From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Sep 3 00:36:44 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 00:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Two Words on Dragon Heirs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Sep 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > On Tue, 2 Sep 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > >One would think that whatever it was that made him non-Heir > >would reflect on his daughter's merit... > > > > I Am Not A Dragon, but here's how I think the > argument in the Dragon Council runs: > > A-advocacy snipped > > Take it with a grain of salt, but I think that that's the way they > thought. Ok, I Am Really Not A Dragon so won't argue. But it seems to me that they had a perfectly good Heir about whom nothing bad could be said, unless perhaps that he practices witchcraft - no Eastern assassins hidden in the boudoir, anyway. (Ok, nothing bad could be said and outlived, either.) I'm thinking a daythief in the hand... Incidentally I think Temma would have had some harsh things to say about Adron along with the positives. > >> Is it even remotely possible that Norathar was in fact a tag > >> in a brothel before Cawti inspired her to do something > >> different with her life? That, or for that matter, Cawti & > >> Norathar *both* being tags, would certainly help explain > >> Cawti's antipathy to prostitution. > > > >Or Norathar is gay and was visiting Cawti's workplace. Or v.v. Or a > >whole list of other possibilities that might well lead to permanent > >deHeiring... > > > >It seems to me that Cawti's position is sufficiently rational to > >stand unexplained. > > > > Oh, I nearly agree. I just thought it was an interesting line of > speculation to consider. Especially in regards with what Dragaerans, > and specifically Dragons, consider to be honorable or otherwise. I think I nearly don't disagree, just feel a bit leery about the, uhh, leering possibilities in thinking too much about Cawti, Prostitute with a Dagger of Steel or Cawti, Lesbian Assassin. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Sep 3 00:48:45 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 00:48:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Iv?n Rebollo wrote: > Philip Hart wrote: > >While it seems like setting myself up as Job to continue the argument, > >Morrolan, to quote someone I tend to agree with, "fully expects to be > >staying." The main use for Blackwand I can see would be to slay all the > >Gods and destroy the control system of the Paths so he could walk out > >alive. As it happens, he makes no use of Blackwand per se. > > I think that even if M did not think that he would be able to come back, he > had a task to perform in the paths helping Vlad and therefore it would be > useful to bring it, i.e. to fight against several dead dragonlords. So are you Eliphaz, Bildad, or Zophar? http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/sb141/point3.html Or... http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/sb141/point1.html) Note M tells BW to heel before the duels. Several dead dragonlords - isn't it funny for a dead guy to object to being knifed by Vlad? I just saw Pirates of the Caribbean (a fun movie which only needs to be edited down some 20% to be entirely recommendable) - dead men make bad sparring partners... From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Sep 3 01:23:56 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 01:23:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Concerning the Great Sea of Chaos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Aug 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > On Sun, 31 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > > On Sun, 31 Aug 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > > > > And since I just looked at the text of the introduction to Dzurlord, I > > see that it says: > > > > A few hundred thousand years ago, or so the story goes, an > > accident happened to the godlike Jenoine who lived on Dragaera and > > whose genetic experiments led to the tribes which eventually lead > > to the Seventeen Houses. What remains is a large Sea of Chaos, in > > the northeastern part of the Empire. > > > > Bother. There goes a lovely theory, shot to little tiny pieces. > > Unless, of course, the intro to Dzurlord is not canonical. > > I wasn't responding since AFB, but anyway I have a strong impression that > Paarfi introduces the purple stones in _FHYA_ as being found on the shore > of the Greater Sea. Page 242 - "near the edge or the 'shore' of the Great Sea." > Also I think you're misguided re wading only into the Lesser Sea but can't > prove it. Yet. _Jhereg_, pg 151, Aliera says, "Walk into the Great Sea..." Of course Aliera says a lot of things in _J_ but I think by default this renders the question of _Dzurlord_'s intro's canonicity above a bit moot. From mtiller at ntlworld.com Wed Sep 3 02:32:31 2003 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:32:31 +0100 Subject: floating castles In-Reply-To: <20030902162124.GC9302@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <001801c371fe$4f638560$0101a8c0@sweetdrewydscc> -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Hunter [mailto:matthew at infodancer.org] Sent: 02 September 2003 17:21 To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: floating castles >No. There is too much risk of creating Conan with that method. Two thoughts, 1. Do NOT give Steve ideas :-) 2. The rope would have to be several miles long as a single strand and strong enough to support it's own weight and the cargo. It's seems much more likely that Morrolan has a buyer who is a sorcerer. 'I'll take that, that and that.' 'Shall I wrap them milord?' 'Don't bother' (gestures with staff) pop! (Goods disappear) 'Here's your money' 'Thank you Milord' Or maybe given the number of people in the castle, the permanent party plus the staff... Cook walks up to Sorcerer 'We have received word that the next meat shipment is ready' 'Is it in the usual place?' 'Yes' (Concentrates briefly)'OK, I've put it in the meat locker, it already had a preservation spell good for another week' Mark From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Wed Sep 3 05:40:43 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 08:40:43 -0400 Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F55E14B.2020300@earthlink.net> Iv?n Rebollo wrote: > Philip Hart wrote: > >> On Tue, 2 Sep 2003, Steven Brust wrote: > > >> > > Philip Hart writes: > > >> > > On the subject, I would like to once again assert that >> Morrolan's taking >> > > Blackwand into the Paths, when he fully expects to be staying, >> is an >> > > annoying flaw in _Taltos_, which if anyone can explain away I'd be >> > > grateful. >> > >> > Just an oversight on my part. I completely forgot that, when going >> into >> > great danger, someone who owns a powerful artifact that might save >> his life >> > will naturally leave this artifact behind. What was I thinking? >> >> While it seems like setting myself up as Job to continue the argument, >> Morrolan, to quote someone I tend to agree with, "fully expects to be >> staying." The main use for Blackwand I can see would be to slay all the >> Gods and destroy the control system of the Paths so he could walk out >> alive. As it happens, he makes no use of Blackwand per se. > > > I think that even if M did not think that he would be able to come > back, he had a task to perform in the paths helping Vlad and therefore > it would be useful to bring it, i.e. to fight against several dead > dragonlords. Actually, if Morrolan had not gone along, Vlad would not have faced several of the things he did, including the Dragonlords. Because Morrolan went, they had to follow the path Morrolan had memorized. Sethra had a different path for Vlad that presumably would not have tests specific to the House of the Dragon. And it makes perfect sense for Blackwand to go along; it is a part of Morrolan, more or less. Even if he expects to be staying in the Paths, having Blackwand around might be handy (it might, against all expectations, help him leave the Paths by operating in some arcane manner). Hey, if Kieron got to keep his for around 100,000 years before handing it off to Aliera, keeping a sword around is certainly possible. If the gods need to return Blackwand to Dragaera proper, it would probably not be very difficult. And he probably wouldn't care if nobody else had a shot at wielding it, since it is linked to him in such a personal way that the thought would probably never occur to him. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From warlord at dragon.com Wed Sep 3 07:32:44 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:32:44 -0400 Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: <3F55E14B.2020300@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Jose Marquez [mailto:jhereg69 at earthlink.net] > Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 8:41 AM > To: Dragaera > Subject: Re: Great Weapons > > > > > Iv?n Rebollo wrote: > > > Philip Hart wrote: > > > >> On Tue, 2 Sep 2003, Steven Brust wrote: > > > > > >> > > Philip Hart writes: > > > > > >> > > On the subject, I would like to once again assert that > >> Morrolan's taking > >> > > Blackwand into the Paths, when he fully expects to be staying, > >> is an > >> > > annoying flaw in _Taltos_, which if anyone can explain > away I'd be > >> > > grateful. > >> > > >> > Just an oversight on my part. I completely forgot that, when going > >> into > >> > great danger, someone who owns a powerful artifact that might save > >> his life > >> > will naturally leave this artifact behind. What was I thinking? > >> > >> While it seems like setting myself up as Job to continue the argument, > >> Morrolan, to quote someone I tend to agree with, "fully expects to be > >> staying." The main use for Blackwand I can see would be to > slay all the > >> Gods and destroy the control system of the Paths so he could walk out > >> alive. As it happens, he makes no use of Blackwand per se. > > > > > > I think that even if M did not think that he would be able to come > > back, he had a task to perform in the paths helping Vlad and therefore > > it would be useful to bring it, i.e. to fight against several dead > > dragonlords. > > > Actually, if Morrolan had not gone along, Vlad would not have faced > several of the things he did, including the Dragonlords. Because > Morrolan went, they had to follow the path Morrolan had memorized. > Sethra had a different path for Vlad that presumably would not have > tests specific to the House of the Dragon. And it makes perfect sense > for Blackwand to go along; it is a part of Morrolan, more or less. Even > if he expects to be staying in the Paths, having Blackwand around might > be handy (it might, against all expectations, help him leave the Paths > by operating in some arcane manner). Hey, if Kieron got to keep his for > around 100,000 years before handing it off to Aliera, keeping a sword > around is certainly possible. If the gods need to return Blackwand to > Dragaera proper, it would probably not be very difficult. And he > probably wouldn't care if nobody else had a shot at wielding it, since > it is linked to him in such a personal way that the thought would > probably never occur to him. > > Jose > Actually, if Morrolan had not gone along, Vlad would have failed because he would have had to face different challenges, pertaining to his House, for which he was not yet ready. Vlad will walk the Paths again, and he will be victorious (thus proving that I can be as confident as Steve can be ambiguous). Morrolan, whether or not he would live through the journey, made it anyway because honor demanded it. He would be satisfied with no other decision, and quite frankly, neither would we. Warlord "If I want your opinion, I'll read your entrails." From dr.elmo at whiterose.org Wed Sep 3 08:01:13 2003 From: dr.elmo at whiterose.org (Greg Morrow) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 10:01:13 -0500 Subject: Two Words on Dragon Heirs In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030902090617.021ee128@mail.whiterose.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030903093959.021f8e28@mail.whiterose.org> David Silberstein wondered aloud to the group: >I have been wondering how the Heirship swings >over to Morrolan - was it decided that the e'Drien line was the >nextmost acceptable after the e'Kieron (and he's the head of the >e'Drien line), or does he inherit that from his mom (whose name we >still don't know, I think), since she was an e'Kieron daughter? We know that Morrolan's mother was e'Kieron? I inferred from the text in Yendi (to the effect that "it was decided that the e'Lanya line would be the next to take the throne") that there was a sort of turn-taking among Dragon lineages. One could presume that this would be to forestall all-out war among the lineages. Probably--these are Dragons, after all--"decided" is an understated way of describing a small war or two and a politically-charged vote on the Dragon Council. Certainly, that it is not always the e'Kieron line necessarily implies that the Dragon heirship is not strictly hereditary. Heredity does, apparently, matter, though; the heirship can pass from Norathar's mother to Norathar, or from Norathar's mother to the e'Kieron (not another e'Lanya). Identically, we have Adron to Aliera or the e'Drien, and, similarly, from Rollondar to Morrolan. One wonders if the heirship can pass more than one step of direct descent. Would Devera have been Aliera's heir-in-waiting if Norathar hadn't appeared? How often is the succession shuffled? We can presume that there was a Dragon heir during the 17th Athyra reign--Houses apparently always have heirs, regardless of how removed they are from the throne--but we can also presume from Yendi that the Dragon heir of the Athyra reign was replaced by Norathar's mother early in the reign of the 18th Phoenix. -- "Join us next week when we have a UChicago physicist discuss just what the effects of bringing a white dwarf star to rest on the Earth's surface would be. For comparison, we'll assume a landing point of Pittsburgh." --Tom Galloway mailto:Dr.Elmo at whiterose.org http://www.whiterose.org/dr.elmo/blog/ From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Sep 3 08:38:37 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org ('Matthew Hunter') Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:38:37 -0500 Subject: floating castles In-Reply-To: <001801c371fe$4f638560$0101a8c0@sweetdrewydscc> References: <20030902162124.GC9302@infodancer.org> <001801c371fe$4f638560$0101a8c0@sweetdrewydscc> Message-ID: <20030903153837.GH9302@infodancer.org> On Wed, Sep 03, 2003 at 10:32:31AM +0100, Mark Tiller wrote: > >No. There is too much risk of creating Conan with that method. > Two thoughts, > 1. Do NOT give Steve ideas :-) I think that idea is a good one, so I shall not apologize. > 2. The rope would have to be several miles long as a single strand and > strong enough to support it's own weight and the cargo. My God Man, have you never heard of knots? We are not building a space elevator! > It's seems much more likely that Morrolan has a buyer who is a sorcerer. Bah! Humbug. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From wikdtrib at bellsouth.net Wed Sep 3 10:30:31 2003 From: wikdtrib at bellsouth.net (Heather Fleming) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:30:31 -0500 Subject: Auden, Fenton . . . Message-ID: <000c01c37241$1518e6a0$4e4c4ed8@hppav> > It seems to me there may simply be biological aspects to women's sexuality > - say slower arousal or less automatic sexual respose - that might lead to > fewer female customers in brothels despite complete social equality > between men and women. And note that there is still some residual > chivalry apparent in the Paarfiad - e.g., women can chastise servants. Not to get into any kind of feminist argument here, but, let's not postulate on the "slower" arousal time or lack of "response" women have to sex, o.k.? Because I do believe that your ideas on that matter are either baseless or, at the very least, not thought out. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Sep 3 11:36:08 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 11:36:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Auden, Fenton . . . In-Reply-To: <000c01c37241$1518e6a0$4e4c4ed8@hppav> References: <000c01c37241$1518e6a0$4e4c4ed8@hppav> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Heather Fleming wrote: > > It seems to me there may simply be biological aspects to women's > > sexuality - say slower arousal or less automatic sexual response - > > that might lead to fewer female customers in brothels despite complete > > social equality between men and women. And note that there is still > > some residual chivalry apparent in the Paarfiad - e.g., women can > > chastise servants. > > Not to get into any kind of feminist argument here, but, let's not > postulate on the "slower" arousal time or lack of "response" women have > to sex, o.k.? Because I do believe that your ideas on that matter are > either baseless or, at the very least, not thought out. I'm a bit bewildered here - we're talking about human beings, right? In this universe, the one where the sky is blue and getting from 0-60 fastest is not considered an accomplishment except among circle jerk devotees? (I should perhaps write devote's as I can't imagine the female equivalent). Where many a young man walks around with the engine running while many a young woman wishes her lover would adjust the mirrors, check the oil, squeegee the windows, and rub on a fresh coat of turtle wax before taking her out for a Sunday drive? Maybe I and my heterosexual male friends and all the sex-column writers have been misled by feminist theorists into believing men should learn to go slow and indulge in foreplay, and our observations that doing so is appreciated were colored by the aforesaid propaganda, and maybe our partners were misled into believing that they shouldn't have an orgasm- centered view of sex when in fact they should expect to come effortlessly every time. Maybe I should go rent some porn to pick up pointers. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Sep 3 12:34:11 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 12:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Concerning the Great Sea of Chaos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Sep 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Tue, 2 Sep 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > > > Probably Alexx wrote: > > >Why "using the Orb"? They held in the Greater Sea somehow, and had no > > >Orb to work with. (Well, I suppose they *might* have done, what with > > >living in non-linear time and all, but it strikes me as inelegant.) > > > > > > > When I wrote that, I had just re-read the bits in /Issola/ that talked > > about the Greater Sea and the Lesser Sea, and the Orb - an artifact of > > trellanstone - being used to control amorphia. > > I thought this was considered more or less miraculous - am I > hallucinating? Also I was under the impression that the Gods > were a consequence of the Great Sea as much as v.v. - and that > the whole thing was accidental enough that no One would have been > prepared to bell it. _Issola_, pg 204. Re the Jenoine's possession of WMD I mean chaos, the Enchantress of Exposition says, "They cannot duplicate the conditions that gave rise to it without, in all probability, destroying their entire world." Then she says re the Catastrophe that created the Great Sea, "the fact that it failed to entirely consume the world is the biggest fluke of all." The Cycle at work, anyone? From mtiller at ntlworld.com Wed Sep 3 12:56:10 2003 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:56:10 +0100 Subject: floating castles In-Reply-To: <20030903153837.GH9302@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <000501c37255$6c456660$0101a8c0@sweetdrewydscc> -----Original Message----- From: 'Matthew Hunter' [mailto:matthew at infodancer.org] Sent: 03 September 2003 16:39 To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: floating castles >> 2. The rope would have to be several miles long as a single strand and >> strong enough to support it's own weight and the cargo. >My God Man, have you never heard of knots? We are not building a >space elevator! Somebody mentioned using a block and tackle (well pulleys anyway). Putting a rope with knots in it through a block and tackle is very difficult. And why not a space elevator! :) Mark P.S. I can't understand why the Dragereans are so focused on their own world. They know that other worlds exist. From wikdtrib at bellsouth.net Wed Sep 3 13:00:01 2003 From: wikdtrib at bellsouth.net (Heather Fleming) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:00:01 -0500 Subject: feminist argument Message-ID: <000a01c37255$f60f72a0$6dc2d6d1@hppav> On Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Heather Fleming wrote: > > It seems to me there may simply be biological aspects to women's > > sexuality - say slower arousal or less automatic sexual response - > > that might lead to fewer female customers in brothels despite complete > > social equality between men and women. And note that there is still > > some residual chivalry apparent in the Paarfiad - e.g., women can > > chastise servants. > > Not to get into any kind of feminist argument here, but, let's not > postulate on the "slower" arousal time or lack of "response" women have > to sex, o.k.? Because I do believe that your ideas on that matter are > either baseless or, at the very least, not thought out. >I'm a bit bewildered here - we're talking about human >beings, right? In >this universe, the one where the sky is blue and getting >from 0-60 fastest >is not considered an accomplishment except among >circle jerk devotees? (I >should perhaps write devote's as I can't imagine the >female equivalent). >Where many a young man walks around with the engine >running while many a >young woman wishes her lover would adjust the mirrors, >check the oil, >squeegee the windows, and rub on a fresh coat of turtle >wax before taking >her out for a Sunday drive? >Maybe I and my heterosexual male friends and all the >sex-column writers >have been misled by feminist theorists into believing men >should learn to >go slow and indulge in foreplay, and our observations >that doing so is >appreciated were colored by the aforesaid propaganda, >and maybe our >partners were misled into believing that they shouldn't >have an orgasm- >centered view of sex when in fact they should expect to >come effortlessly >every time. Maybe I should go rent some porn to pick >up pointers. Wow! That is so way off what I meant it's almost ridiculous. I was merely suggesting that to assume a woman biologically would be unlikely to enjoy the pleasures of a prostitute was a bit misguided. Women's "engines", like men's can run fast or slow, depending on their current moods, I assure you. Assuming that one is either one way or another at all times due to some biological factor is what I object to, not the rise in male sensitivity. . From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Wed Sep 3 15:57:41 2003 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 15:57:41 -0700 Subject: floating castles Message-ID: <200309031557.AA350028046@amish2000.com> ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Mark Tiller" Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:56:10 +0100 >-----Original Message----- >From: 'Matthew Hunter' [mailto:matthew at infodancer.org] >Sent: 03 September 2003 16:39 >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: floating castles >>> 2. The rope would have to be several miles long as a single strand and >>> strong enough to support it's own weight and the cargo. > >>My God Man, have you never heard of knots? We are not building a >>space elevator! > >Somebody mentioned using a block and tackle (well pulleys anyway). Putting >a rope with knots in it through a block and tackle is very difficult. >And why not a space elevator! :) ... "Morrolan e'Drien And the Great Glass Elevator." The only saving grace of that would be Morrolan in bottle- glass-green tight pants. >P.S. I can't understand why the Dragereans are so focused on their own >world. They know that other worlds exist. Maybe there's a rule against having extra worlds in your closet, or something? Maybe the gods won't permit people to focus too much on those other worlds, for fear of people storing up power and allies and demons and whatnot in a convenient little extradimensional box. ? MJ "Daymar And The Chocolate Factory" would rock. From TimN at rcn.com Wed Sep 3 13:22:09 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:22:09 -0400 Subject: floating castles References: <200309031557.AA350028046@amish2000.com> Message-ID: <004701c37259$0e4eb1c0$d916fea9@ananda> This world is blessed by the presence of the Orb and His/Her Magesty, the Emperor(ess). Therefore, this world is obviously the best one, the most important one, and all others are secondary at best. - T ----- Original Message ----- From: M J To: Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 6:57 PM Subject: RE: floating castles ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- Maybe there's a rule against having extra worlds in your closet, or something? Maybe the gods won't permit people to focus too much on those other worlds, for fear of people storing up power and allies and demons and whatnot in a convenient little extradimensional box. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Sep 3 13:22:15 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 13:22:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: feminist argument In-Reply-To: <000a01c37255$f60f72a0$6dc2d6d1@hppav> References: <000a01c37255$f60f72a0$6dc2d6d1@hppav> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Heather Fleming wrote: > > On Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Heather Fleming wrote: > > > > It seems to me there may simply be biological aspects to women's > > > sexuality - say slower arousal or less automatic sexual response - > > > that might lead to fewer female customers in brothels despite complete > > > social equality between men and women. And note that there is still > > > some residual chivalry apparent in the Paarfiad - e.g., women can > > > chastise servants. > > > > Not to get into any kind of feminist argument here, but, let's not > > postulate on the "slower" arousal time or lack of "response" women have > > to sex, o.k.? Because I do believe that your ideas on that matter are > > either baseless or, at the very least, not thought out. > > > >I'm a bit bewildered here - we're talking about human >beings, right? In > >this universe, the one where the sky is blue and getting >from 0-60 fastest > >is not considered an accomplishment except among >circle jerk devotees? (I > >should perhaps write devote's as I can't imagine the >female equivalent). > >Where many a young man walks around with the engine >running while many a > >young woman wishes her lover would adjust the mirrors, >check the oil, > >squeegee the windows, and rub on a fresh coat of turtle >wax before taking > >her out for a Sunday drive? > > >Maybe I and my heterosexual male friends and all the >sex-column > >writers have been misled by feminist theorists into believing men > >>should learn to go slow and indulge in foreplay, and our observations > >>that doing so is appreciated were colored by the aforesaid propaganda, > >>and maybe our partners were misled into believing that they shouldn't > >>have an orgasm- centered view of sex when in fact they should expect > >to >come effortlessly every time. Maybe I should go rent some porn to > >pick >up pointers. > > Wow! That is so way off what I meant it's almost ridiculous. I was > merely suggesting that to assume a woman biologically would be unlikely > to enjoy the pleasures of a prostitute was a bit misguided. Women's > "engines", like men's can run fast or slow, depending on their current > moods, I assure you. Assuming that one is either one way or another at > all times due to some biological factor is what I object to, not the > rise in male sensitivity. . So I just had some discussion offline which convinced me that my last post was much too vivid and red in tooth and claw, so I'm pleased that you weren't offended. (Apologies to anyone who was.) We have apparently misread each other. What I would have originally said if I had felt my poorly informed opinions about prostitution deserved going on about at greater length, is that I suspect aspects of both male and female biology could lead (please not that I used "may" and "might" in the original post in question) to disparaties in the rate of women and men frequenting brothels. Such as the difficulties faced by the male tags in providing all services on command. And if it's at all controversial to think that the average man has a shorter arousal time than the average woman, nurture aside, and that this might lead to "fewer female customers in brothels", then my mistake. From davids at kithrup.com Wed Sep 3 13:23:24 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:23:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Two Words on Dragon Heirs In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030903093959.021f8e28@mail.whiterose.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Greg Morrow wrote: >David Silberstein wondered aloud to the group: > >I have been wondering how the Heirship swings > >over to Morrolan - was it decided that the e'Drien line was the > >nextmost acceptable after the e'Kieron (and he's the head of the > >e'Drien line), or does he inherit that from his mom (whose name we > >still don't know, I think), since she was an e'Kieron daughter? > >We know that Morrolan's mother was e'Kieron? /Taltos/, chapter 14, pg 144 in th Ace PB: "I'm your cousin. My name is Morrolan e'Drien. I am the eldest son of your father's youngest sister." I have speculated elsewhere about whether Dragon lineage follows the father always, or can perhaps sometimes follow the mother. But I am nearly certain that Rollandar's wife, Adron's sister, was an e'Kieron. Note that "eldest" would appear to be wrong, although it occurs to me as I type this that Morrolan might not have known of his brother Molric when he said that. Or Vlad or Steve just got it wrong. >I inferred from the text in Yendi (to the effect that "it was decided >that the e'Lanya line would be the next to take the throne") that >there was a sort of turn-taking among Dragon lineages. This is my understanding as well. >How often is the succession shuffled? We can presume that there was >a Dragon heir during the 17th Athyra reign--Houses apparently always >have heirs, regardless of how removed they are from the throne--but >we can also presume from Yendi that the Dragon heir of the Athyra >reign was replaced by Norathar's mother early in the reign of the >18th Phoenix. Well, Adron was the Heir at the very beginning of that reign, and perhaps he had only recently been chosen. While /Yendi/ mentions the "Lady Miera" first, and "Lord K'laiyer" second, the preface to /Paths of the Dead/ states that the "Lord of Kee-Laiyer Meadows" was the Heir, not Norathar's mother. Shrug. From bio_phy at hotmail.com Wed Sep 3 13:35:26 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 15:35:26 -0500 Subject: feminist argument Message-ID: My only thought is that it is possible to get *too* caught up with your favorite fantasy world. The last thing I need is for somebody to invent a Dragaeran tongue and translate holy scripture into it (ala Klingon). While I can respect the kind of accomplishment that that is, there is part of me that has to be astonished at the colossal waste of time. In other words, I read the stories, I enjoy them, I move on. For some of these things, it wouldn't hurt to get just a little perspective. My enjoyment of the place isn't diminished by hardback pages that are a tad out of spec or the odd detail that isnt quite exact. The story's the thing; the scope of the tale, the manner of the telling, the sheer escapist value of the characters and their situations. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ >We have apparently misread each other. What I would have originally said >if I had felt my poorly informed opinions about prostitution deserved >going on about at greater length, is that I suspect aspects of both male >and female biology could lead (please not that I used "may" and "might" >in the original post in question) to disparaties in the rate of women and >men frequenting brothels. Such as the difficulties faced by the male tags >in providing all services on command. And if it's at all controversial to >think that the average man has a shorter arousal time than the average >woman, nurture aside, and that this might lead to "fewer female customers >in brothels", then my mistake. _________________________________________________________________ Help protect your PC: Get a free online virus scan at McAfee.com. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Wed Sep 3 13:59:02 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:59:02 -0700 Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: References: <3F55E14B.2020300@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20030903205902.GA10689@ofb.net> On Wed, Sep 03, 2003 at 10:32:44AM -0400, Warlord wrote: > Actually, if Morrolan had not gone along, Vlad would have failed because > he would have had to face different challenges, pertaining to his House, > for which he was not yet ready. Vlad will walk the Paths again, and he No, in that case Morrolan would have been following the path of the Dragon and Vlad the path of the Jhereg. But Sethra made it clear the Paths are for Dragaerans, not Easterners, even Easterners who have wormed their way into some House. She intended for him to take the super secret safe undead routes in, but he bollixed it by roping Morrolan in. -xx- Damien X-) From wikdtrib at bellsouth.net Wed Sep 3 15:44:03 2003 From: wikdtrib at bellsouth.net (Heather Fleming) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:44:03 -0500 Subject: feminist argument Message-ID: <000a01c3726c$e08123e0$134d4ed8@hppav> no, worries. I wasn't calling you cro-magnon man or anything. Just voicing an opinion which, like something else I could name, everyone has. From wikdtrib at bellsouth.net Wed Sep 3 15:47:04 2003 From: wikdtrib at bellsouth.net (Heather Fleming) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:47:04 -0500 Subject: feminist argument Message-ID: <001501c3726d$4c89b200$134d4ed8@hppav> >My only thought is that it is possible to get *too* caught >favorite fantasy world. >The last thing I need is for somebody to invent a >Dragaeran tongue and >translate holy scripture into it (ala Klingon). While I can >respect the >kind of accomplishment that that is, there is part of me >that has to be >astonished at the colossal waste of time. >In other words, I read the stories, I enjoy them, I move >on. >For some of these things, it wouldn't hurt to get just a >little perspective. >My enjoyment of the place isn't diminished by hardback >pages that are a tad >out of spec or the odd detail that isnt quite exact. >The story's the thing; the scope of the tale, the manner of >the telling, the >sheer escapist value of the characters and their situations. Well said. From pulmon at comcast.net Wed Sep 3 16:02:52 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:02:52 -0400 Subject: Auden, Fenton . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Who'd a thunk it? A prosaic debate on male vs female sexual arousal on one of the more provocative lists around. Frankly, my more bestial side is titillated by thinking about the sexual proclivities of beings whose essence contains critical components of ANIMALS!!! Thank G-d that Norska didn't make it into the 17! Nonetheless, what would one do to pleasure a person made up in part of giant snail genes? Real sexual pleasure is probably not best served in this discussion, but I wonder what our more imaginative members (I use the word advisedly) could do to enlighten us, or at least disambiguate, the human/animal sexual interaction! On Wednesday, September 3, 2003, at 02:36 PM, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Heather Fleming wrote: > >>> It seems to me there may simply be biological aspects to women's >>> sexuality - say slower arousal or less automatic sexual response - >>> that might lead to fewer female customers in brothels despite >>> complete >>> social equality between men and women. And note that there is still >>> some residual chivalry apparent in the Paarfiad - e.g., women can >>> chastise servants. >> >> Not to get into any kind of feminist argument here, but, let's not >> postulate on the "slower" arousal time or lack of "response" women >> have >> to sex, o.k.? Because I do believe that your ideas on that matter are >> either baseless or, at the very least, not thought out. > > > I'm a bit bewildered here - we're talking about human beings, right? > In > this universe, the one where the sky is blue and getting from 0-60 > fastest > is not considered an accomplishment except among circle jerk devotees? > (I > should perhaps write devote's as I can't imagine the female > equivalent). > Where many a young man walks around with the engine running while many > a > young woman wishes her lover would adjust the mirrors, check the oil, > squeegee the windows, and rub on a fresh coat of turtle wax before > taking > her out for a Sunday drive? > > Maybe I and my heterosexual male friends and all the sex-column writers > have been misled by feminist theorists into believing men should learn > to > go slow and indulge in foreplay, and our observations that doing so is > appreciated were colored by the aforesaid propaganda, and maybe our > partners were misled into believing that they shouldn't have an orgasm- > centered view of sex when in fact they should expect to come > effortlessly > every time. Maybe I should go rent some porn to pick up pointers. > From rone at ennui.org Wed Sep 3 16:53:06 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (roger n. tospott) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 16:53:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Spoilers] LoCB Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030903235306.288B126C38@boredom.ennui.org> Steve Hubbell writes: Note 2: I still think Tukko / Chaz is really Mario You know, every time one of you comes up with a hare-brained "X is really Mario" idea, Steve rubs his hands gleefully and cackles. rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From kknolte at ecity.net Wed Sep 3 11:02:06 2003 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 19:02:06 +0100 Subject: Two Words on Dragon Heirs References: Message-ID: <3F562C9C.6DEE@ecity.net> David Silberstein wrote: > > It would seem that the Dragons place a high premium on propriety > >and status. > For Dragons, status means demanding respect *regardless* of > one's actions. There is a link to propriety, true, but it is > not as strong as the demand for respect itself, which I would guess > is founded on the personal and/or military strength of the Dragon > concerned. Perhaps status is based on tactical ability? The e'Lanya line is 'better' than the e'Kieron line, according to the Dragon Council, and as far as I know, the impressive thing about the e'Lanya is their tactical ability (Norathar's father being a noteworthy tactician worthy of his lineage in Sethra's eyes. Even if she was just trying to make Norathar feel better, it's interesting that she chose to praise his tactical abilities rather than his insistence on fighting Sethra over Norathar's legitimacy). Is there any textevd about Dragons liking to play chess or wargames when they can't come up with a good real army to fight? Karen From ehahn at isochronism.com Wed Sep 3 17:17:27 2003 From: ehahn at isochronism.com (Edward Hahn) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:17:27 -0400 Subject: [Spoilers] LoCB Questions In-Reply-To: <20030903235306.288B126C38@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <2A8ECFFD-DE6D-11D7-A3A4-000393962F9C@isochronism.com> On Wednesday, Sep 3, 2003, at 19:53 US/Eastern, roger n. tospott wrote: > Steve Hubbell writes: > Note 2: I still think Tukko / Chaz is really Mario > > You know, every time one of you comes up with a hare-brained "X is > really Mario" idea, Steve rubs his hands gleefully and cackles. Shh. Don't encourage them. ed -- Ed Hahn / ehahn at isochronism.com "It don't mean a thing if it ain't got an even swing!" From bio_phy at hotmail.com Wed Sep 3 17:18:35 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 19:18:35 -0500 Subject: Auden, Fenton . . . Message-ID: That would depend on two things: your definition of "human", and your definition of "animal". ;) johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ >From: Kenneth Gorelick >Who'd a thunk it? A prosaic debate on male vs female sexual arousal on one >of the more provocative lists around. Frankly, my more bestial side is >titillated by thinking about the sexual proclivities of beings whose >essence contains critical components of ANIMALS!!! Thank G-d that Norska >didn't make it into the 17! Nonetheless, what would one do to pleasure a >person made up in part of giant snail genes? > >Real sexual pleasure is probably not best served in this discussion, but I >wonder what our more imaginative members (I use the word advisedly) could >do to enlighten us, or at least disambiguate, the human/animal sexual >interaction! _________________________________________________________________ Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From bio_phy at hotmail.com Wed Sep 3 17:19:45 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 19:19:45 -0500 Subject: [Spoilers] LoCB Questions Message-ID: Mario is Mario. Obviously. ;) johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ >>You know, every time one of you comes up with a hare-brained "X is >>really Mario" idea, Steve rubs his hands gleefully and cackles. > >Shh. Don't encourage them. > >ed _________________________________________________________________ Get MSN 8 and help protect your children with advanced parental controls. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Wed Sep 3 20:42:09 2003 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 20:42:09 -0700 Subject: [Spoilers] LoCB Questions Message-ID: > >Mario is Mario. Obviously. ;) Actually, I thought it was obvious that Mario is, in fact, Verra. Isn't EVERYONE just Verra in a different time/place/shape/personallity? (Except perhaps the Jenoine or S L/ Kiera) James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN >johne (phy) cook >wisconsin, usa> >>>You know, every time one of you comes up with a hare-brained "X is >>>really Mario" idea, Steve rubs his hands gleefully and cackles. >> >>Shh. Don't encourage them. >> >>ed > _________________________________________________________________ Need more e-mail storage? Get 10MB with Hotmail Extra Storage. http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es From rone at ennui.org Wed Sep 3 23:17:30 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (roger n. tospott) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 23:17:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: music in 17 Message-ID: <20030904061730.4B46E26C39@boredom.ennui.org> Just wanted to point out that the title track off The Trey Gunn Band's "The Joy of Molybdenum" is in 17 (4 4 4 5). It's a great album, so pick it up and thank me later. Or kill me. rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From rone at ennui.org Wed Sep 3 23:25:01 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (roger n. tospott) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 23:25:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A Mighty Thundering of LoCB Comments (No SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <564352BD.4079E59A.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030904062501.22EC326C38@boredom.ennui.org> Gaertk at aol.com writes: This was good, faster paced and more fun than POTD. I do have to disagree with whoever complained about the choice of stopping point: this was not at all a cliffhanger (no one is in immediate danger), and (unlike POTD) we know where everyone is at that time and more or less what they're doing. I think that the sudden decision by a prominent character quite near the end counts enough as a cliffhanger to me. I should say i was stunned. I even thought to myself, "This is insupportable." For anyone surprised by the actions of certain people at the end of LOCB, all I can say is that you were warned. Specifically, on the first page of chapter 18. (And those of you discussing the Orb/Cycle/Emporer/phoenix would find the rest of that chapter enlightening as well.) I am not certain if you mean Chapter the Eighteenth, or the 18th chapter in LoCB, which would be Chapter the Fifty-second. In either case, i find the first page rather unenlightening in regards to there being a warning for the sudden event, so i'm left wondering what, exactly, you meant. rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From pulmon at comcast.net Thu Sep 4 03:55:35 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 06:55:35 -0400 Subject: [Spoilers] LoCB Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <50053E4C-DEC6-11D7-872B-0003938F1608@comcast.net> You guys are so fixated on Mario...what will happen when WARIO appears? On Wednesday, September 3, 2003, at 11:42 PM, James Griffin wrote: > > >> >> Mario is Mario. Obviously. ;) > > Actually, I thought it was obvious that Mario is, in fact, Verra. > Isn't EVERYONE just Verra in a different > time/place/shape/personallity? (Except perhaps the Jenoine or S L/ > Kiera) > > James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN > >> johne (phy) cook >> wisconsin, usa> >>>> You know, every time one of you comes up with a hare-brained "X is >>>> really Mario" idea, Steve rubs his hands gleefully and cackles. >>> >>> Shh. Don't encourage them. >>> >>> ed >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Need more e-mail storage? Get 10MB with Hotmail Extra Storage. > http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es > From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Thu Sep 4 04:52:59 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 07:52:59 -0400 Subject: [Spoilers] LoCB Questions In-Reply-To: <50053E4C-DEC6-11D7-872B-0003938F1608@comcast.net> References: <50053E4C-DEC6-11D7-872B-0003938F1608@comcast.net> Message-ID: <3F57279B.3030106@earthlink.net> Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > You guys are so fixated on Mario...what will happen when WARIO appears? He'll probably team up with Luigi, who is sick of playing second fiddle, and try to take out Mario. Even though they'll fail, Wario will become insanely popular due to his ill-tempered ways, while Mario continues to be an expensive but reliable, uh, plumber. Yeah, that's it. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From warlord at dragon.com Thu Sep 4 06:56:10 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 09:56:10 -0400 Subject: [Spoilers] LoCB Questions In-Reply-To: <3F57279B.3030106@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Jose Marquez [mailto:jhereg69 at earthlink.net] > > Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > > > You guys are so fixated on Mario...what will happen when WARIO appears? > > > He'll probably team up with Luigi, who is sick of playing second fiddle, > and try to take out Mario. Even though they'll fail, Wario will become > insanely popular due to his ill-tempered ways, while Mario continues to > be an expensive but reliable, uh, plumber. Yeah, that's it. > I'm waiting for the prequel about the son of Mario and Aleira: Fabio After all, he's already made the cover of LoCB as a stunt double for Morrolan. W "Does 'anal retentive' have a hyphen? How about a colon?" From bio_phy at hotmail.com Thu Sep 4 06:58:06 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 08:58:06 -0500 Subject: music in 17 Message-ID: Never heard of him / them. What's it like? I know Tool is known for intricate time signatures. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ >From: rone at ennui.org (roger n. tospott) >To: SKZB List >Subject: music in 17 >Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 23:17:30 -0700 (PDT) > >Just wanted to point out that the title track off The Trey Gunn Band's >"The Joy of Molybdenum" is in 17 (4 4 4 5). It's a great album, so >pick it up and thank me later. Or kill me. > >rone >-- >"I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" >"Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" > -- RICHH _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with MSN Messenger 6.0 -- download now! http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_general From bio_phy at hotmail.com Thu Sep 4 07:00:33 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 09:00:33 -0500 Subject: A Mighty Thundering of LoCB Comments (No SPOILERS) Message-ID: As did I. However, before I pass judgement, I want to read the final segment of the larger work. I will admit to being unsettled, and I daresay we are *supposed* to be. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ >I think that the sudden decision by a prominent character quite near >the end counts enough as a cliffhanger to me. I should say i was >stunned. I even thought to myself, "This is insupportable." _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with MSN Messenger 6.0 -- download now! http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_general From bio_phy at hotmail.com Thu Sep 4 07:05:29 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 09:05:29 -0500 Subject: [Spoilers] LoCB Questions Message-ID: Uh, it's not *that* Mario. This is the *cooler* one, the one that leaves stillettos in your eyeballs. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ >You guys are so fixated on Mario...what will happen when WARIO appears? _________________________________________________________________ Need more e-mail storage? Get 10MB with Hotmail Extra Storage. http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es From rone at ennui.org Thu Sep 4 15:47:55 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (roger n. tospott) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 15:47:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: music in 17 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030904224755.452D926C38@boredom.ennui.org> Johne Cook writes: Never heard of him / them. What's it like? I know Tool is known for intricate time signatures. Well, he's in King Crimson, but his band's stuff has more of a Middle Eastern flavor. Here's some of his tracks: http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/106/trey_gunn.html http://treygunn.com/sound/mp3.html The one i mentioned is at http://treygunn.com/media/joy.mp3 rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From rone at ennui.org Thu Sep 4 15:54:41 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (roger n. tospott) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 15:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LoCB Comments In-Reply-To: <159.234b2d22.2c74bd21@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030904225441.41ADE26C3C@boredom.ennui.org> Raellew at aol.com writes: A minor spoiler: Is the soldier with whom Clari shares a pomegranate in Chapter 60 Dortmond from _Dragon_, by chance? I could not imagine it was anyone else. What is the difference between a soul mate and a familiar? If there isn't one, why does Morrolan tell Vlad he's never heard of a witch having two familiars? Yeah, especially since Brimford clearly has two familiars. rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From davids at kithrup.com Thu Sep 4 17:53:02 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 17:53:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LoCB Comments In-Reply-To: <20030904225441.41ADE26C3C@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, roger n. tospott wrote: >Raellew at aol.com writes: > A minor spoiler: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is the soldier with whom Clari shares a pomegranate in Chapter 60 > Dortmond from _Dragon_, by chance? > >I could not imagine it was anyone else. It occurs to me that the Dortmond of /Dragon/ got the idea of being a permanent low-ranking foot soldier from other Dragons who just like the soldier life, and make themselves as comfortable as possible within that life. Who can say? > What is the difference between a soul mate and a familiar? If there > isn't one, why does Morrolan tell Vlad he's never heard of a witch > having two familiars? > >Yeah, especially since Brimford clearly has two familiars. > I also noticed, on looking for something else, that in /Yendi/, Morrolan claims that he's never met Zerika's Easterner lover. Hmph. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Sep 4 18:04:14 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 18:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LoCB Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, roger n. tospott wrote: > > >Raellew at aol.com writes: > > A minor spoiler: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Yeah, especially since Brimford clearly has two familiars. > > I also noticed, on looking for something else, that in /Yendi/, > Morrolan claims that he's never met Zerika's Easterner lover. > > Hmph. I claim there's a small but non-neglible chance that Zerika's Eastern lover isn't Brimford - the possiblity has been discussed here. While I'm thinking about _TLoCB_, I note that "paying the shot" appears again - I was a bit mystified when Teldra said this in _Issola_. Is this regional or standard English I just never met? From frank at exit.com Thu Sep 4 18:21:06 2003 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 18:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LoCB Comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200309050121.h851L6Zn006890@realtime.exit.com> David Silberstein wrote: > I also noticed, on looking for something else, that in /Yendi/, > Morrolan claims that he's never met Zerika's Easterner lover. Isn't Yendi set a couple of hundred years after the events of PotD? This would be a bit past even an extended lifetime of your average Easterner. That would be a problem with Elf-Easterner romances: Just when the Elf is getting comfortable in the relationship, the Easterner up and dies of old age. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Sep 4 18:30:52 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 18:30:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LoCB Comments In-Reply-To: <200309050121.h851L6Zn006890@realtime.exit.com> References: <200309050121.h851L6Zn006890@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: a bit of spoiler space added: On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, Frank Mayhar wrote: > David Silberstein wrote: > > I also noticed, on looking for something else, that in /Yendi/, > > Morrolan claims that he's never met Zerika's Easterner lover. > > Isn't Yendi set a couple of hundred years after the events of PotD? This > would be a bit past even an extended lifetime of your average Easterner. > That would be a problem with Elf-Easterner romances: Just when the Elf > is getting comfortable in the relationship, the Easterner up and dies of > old age. This has already been speculated on at fair length - witchcraft might allow long life, witches might not choose to extend their lives, Verra might help (v. Arra - ooh, check out the similarity of name), the Orb might help. Another part of the argument went that Zerika said in _Phoenix_ (I believe) that she'sin love with Laszlo's soul - so the current "Laszlo" could be the reincarnation of the old, with the old name reattached - but in some sense not the old - in the sense that Vlad's not Dolivar. From Kisc at InsaneNinjaHero.com Thu Sep 4 18:39:55 2003 From: Kisc at InsaneNinjaHero.com (Derrill Guilbert) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 19:39:55 -0600 Subject: A Mighty Thundering of LoCB Comments (No SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F57E96B.8020300@InsaneNinjaHero.com> Johne Cook wrote: > As did I. However, before I pass judgement, I want to read the final > segment of the larger work. I will admit to being unsettled, and I > daresay we are *supposed* to be. > >> I think that the sudden decision by a prominent character quite near >> the end counts enough as a cliffhanger to me. I should say i was >> stunned. I even thought to myself, "This is insupportable." > > See, there you go again, making crazy assumptions about Mr. Brust and the way he writes. Kisc From frank at exit.com Thu Sep 4 18:53:54 2003 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 18:53:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LoCB Comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200309050153.h851rsuo007254@realtime.exit.com> Philip Hart wrote: > a bit of spoiler space added: > On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, Frank Mayhar wrote: > > David Silberstein wrote: > > > I also noticed, on looking for something else, that in /Yendi/, > > > Morrolan claims that he's never met Zerika's Easterner lover. > > Isn't Yendi set a couple of hundred years after the events of PotD? This > > would be a bit past even an extended lifetime of your average Easterner. > > That would be a problem with Elf-Easterner romances: Just when the Elf > > is getting comfortable in the relationship, the Easterner up and dies of > > old age. > This has already been speculated on at fair length - witchcraft might > allow long life, witches might not choose to extend their lives, Verra > might help (v. Arra - ooh, check out the similarity of name), the Orb > might help. Yeah, but not having actually _seen_ that, center stage, I tend to discount it. > Another part of the argument went that Zerika said in _Phoenix_ (I > believe) that she'sin love with Laszlo's soul - so the current "Laszlo" > could be the reincarnation of the old, with the old name reattached - > but in some sense not the old - in the sense that Vlad's not Dolivar. This could certainly be true. In which case, Morrolan is merely being evasive or overly literal. That is, he's never met said lover _in his current incarnation_. Making _Yendi_ continue to be canon, warts and all. :-) -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From davids at kithrup.com Thu Sep 4 18:54:55 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 18:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LoCB Comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > >While I'm thinking about _TLoCB_, I note that "paying the shot" >appears again - I was a bit mystified when Teldra said this in >_Issola_. Is this regional or standard English I just never met? > Hmm. Google knows much - 99 hits on "paying the shot", and the first one is: "Paying the shot" soon came to be a common phrase. Yes, and I knew it would still be passing men's lips, away down in the nineteenth century, yet none would suspect how and when it originated. http://www.literaturepage.com/read/aconnecticutyankee-249.html I'd guess it was more common in Twain's Missouri, perhaps. Or maybe it's more New England idiom? There's also 261 hits on "pay the shot" : http://home.t-online.de/home/toni.goeller/idiom_wm/id459.htm pay the shot == pay the whole bill, pay for everybody's ticket etc. http://www.englishcivilwar.com/articles_jabberment.html Seems to be claiming that it's C17th English slang, which has many other amusing phrases. To swallow a hare - to get exceedingly drunk In the gun - tipsy Jugbitten - tipsy Merry go down - very strong ale Overseen - drunk Pay the shot - pay the bill Pot walk - a drinking session Wamblety - overhung From rone at ennui.org Thu Sep 4 21:09:26 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (roger n. tospott) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 21:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Worried About ... (LOCB Spoilers) In-Reply-To: <349BF36F.0CAE3D64.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030905040926.2108D26C32@boredom.ennui.org> Gaertk at aol.com writes: First some bad news (and I really hate to be the bearer of such, but someone has to): I just saw the massmarket edition of POTD, and it still has a typo in the URL for Mark's webpage. So could someone please politely inform the nice folks at Tor so this can be fixed finally? Given Ilen's report of Paarfi's rant regarding 'now' and 'not', the likelihood of this being fixed seems very remote. rone dragaeran editors' mothers wear combat boots -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From rone at ennui.org Thu Sep 4 23:46:24 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (roger n. tospott) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 23:46:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Two Words on Dragon Heirs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030905064624.C1AE026C3F@boredom.ennui.org> [SPOILERS?] David Silberstein writes: /Taltos/, chapter 14, pg 144 in th Ace PB: "I'm your cousin. My name is Morrolan e'Drien. I am the eldest son of your father's youngest sister." I have speculated elsewhere about whether Dragon lineage follows the father always, or can perhaps sometimes follow the mother. But I am nearly certain that Rollandar's wife, Adron's sister, was an e'Kieron. "And yet," observed K?urana, "he has not the bloodlines to use such powers fully." [LoCB, p. 391] I am confus?d. Note that "eldest" would appear to be wrong, although it occurs to me as I type this that Morrolan might not have known of his brother Molric when he said that. Or Vlad or Steve just got it wrong. Hmm. FHYA, page 141: "To-day my cousin is Warlord, and his younger son is my chainman, [...]" Note 'younger'. rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Sep 5 00:02:47 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 00:02:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Two Words on Dragon Heirs [_TLoCB_ spoilers] In-Reply-To: <20030905064624.C1AE026C3F@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20030905064624.C1AE026C3F@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 rone at ennui.org wrote: > [SPOILERS?] > > > David Silberstein writes: > /Taltos/, chapter 14, pg 144 in th Ace PB: > "I'm your cousin. My name is Morrolan e'Drien. I am the eldest son > of your father's youngest sister." > I have speculated elsewhere about whether Dragon lineage follows the > father always, or can perhaps sometimes follow the mother. But I am > nearly certain that Rollandar's wife, Adron's sister, was an e'Kieron. > > "And yet," observed K?urana, "he has not the bloodlines to use > such powers fully." [LoCB, p. 391] > > I am confus?d. > > Note that "eldest" would appear to be wrong, although it occurs to me > as I type this that Morrolan might not have known of his brother > Molric when he said that. Or Vlad or Steve just got it wrong. > > Hmm. FHYA, page 141: "To-day my cousin is Warlord, and his younger > son is my chainman, [...]" Note 'younger'. I think I've argued here before that Dragaeran might well have a system for describing relationships like the Romans used and various other cultures use, with a host of precise terms for degrees of separation - and that the poor translator is faced with difficulties keeping them straight (it's a masculine genitive of the foo declension, and the referent is dead, so...) This word is likely to be unique in the corpus of Dragaeran texts, adding to the difficulty. Also I would like to ask what it could possibly mean to have the e'Kieron genes. Does one lose the right to claim that lineage if one doesn't have two copies of gene K? Can one have gene K but not be an e'Kieron? I can well imagine that Adron's sister might be his half-sister, further complicating matters, and Molric might be Morrolan's half-brother (maybe Rollondar had two different e'K wives...) And how can having genes K0, K1, ... possibly affect one's interactions with the amorphia? This protein is ok, says the big blob of chaos, but add an extra carbon on the wiggly part and I'll have to eat you. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Sep 5 00:28:55 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 00:28:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LoCB Comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > >While I'm thinking about _TLoCB_, I note that "paying the shot" > > ... Is this regional or standard English I just never met? > Seems to be claiming that it's C17th English slang, which has many > other amusing phrases. > > ... > Merry go down - very strong ale I bet Teldra, Morrolan, et al. use a lot of what should sound to Vlad like C17th English slang. At the risk of sounding like a Gene Wolfe conversation between thieves (also known as losing the reader) perhaps the Vladiad's translator might throw in more such expressions for flavor. > Wamblety - overhung Hmm, "overhung" - is this regional or standard English I just never met? From davids at kithrup.com Fri Sep 5 00:51:30 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 00:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Two Words on Dragon Heirs In-Reply-To: <20030905064624.C1AE026C3F@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, roger n. tospott wrote: >[SPOILERS?] > > >David Silberstein writes: > /Taltos/, chapter 14, pg 144 in th Ace PB: > "I'm your cousin. My name is Morrolan e'Drien. I am the eldest son > of your father's youngest sister." > I have speculated elsewhere about whether Dragon lineage follows the > father always, or can perhaps sometimes follow the mother. But I am > nearly certain that Rollandar's wife, Adron's sister, was an e'Kieron. > > "And yet," observed K?urana, "he has not the bloodlines to use > such powers fully." [LoCB, p. 391] > >I am confus?d. Well, just to clarify my own statements, I am not trying to suggest that Morrolan is somehow an e'Kieron (although that might be what the gods are trying to suggest, or at least, that he has enough e'Kieron lineage to manipulate amorphia, or perhaps that the lineage isn't as important as we might think for being able to manipulate amorphia). Rather, we have not seen the name nor lineage of Morrolan's mother, and while it is extremely likely that the sister of an e'Kieron would also be an e'Kieron, there is a very slight chance that she might not have been. Obviously, I have no way of knowing for sure. > Note that "eldest" would appear to be wrong, although it occurs to me > as I type this that Morrolan might not have known of his brother > Molric when he said that. Or Vlad or Steve just got it wrong. > >Hmm. FHYA, page 141: "To-day my cousin is Warlord, and his younger >son is my chainman, [...]" Note 'younger'. > Now *I* am confus?d. I had always assumed that that simply meant that there was a third brother whose name we didn't know, and that he was the real eldest. But given the timing, Molric *must* have been older than Morrolan. Unless... Now I am imagining a scenario where Morrolan is born first, but is, for some strange reason known only to Rollandar e'Drien & his wife (and his cousin Adron e'Kieron) put into some sort of sorcerous stasis as a very young child. His mom (or even his dad) takes him out East and put him in the keeping of that minor noble whose house Morrolan was living in before he went a-wandering. This parent tells the noble family: "This here is the child of Rollandar e'Drien and e'. Leave him alone, and we shall presently return for him, and de-stasis him." Or perhaps the stasis was put on Morrolan by Rollandar's enemies, and he thinks that Eastern witchcraft can break the stasis - either way, he expects to come back at *some* point and have a normal son. And then, of course, Dragaera City goes kerflooey, along with everyone who knows about this odd situation. The stasis ends along with all other sorcery, and Baby Morrolan wakes up and wonders what is going on. The noble, or rather, the descendant of the noble, since a few hundred years or so have passed, shrugs, and puts the kid in the care of an Easterner nurse, and tells the kid only the few details he knows. And that's why Morrolan is so utterly ignorant of who he is, even though he is the eldest son of Rollandar e'Drien. Alternatively, perhaps something happened with Devera or Verra, and time just went weirdly. From davids at kithrup.com Fri Sep 5 00:58:22 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 00:58:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LoCB Comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Sep 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > >> Wamblety - overhung > >Hmm, "overhung" - is this regional or standard English I just never >met? > Amusingly enough, the OED has it, along with various citations: overhung, ppl. a [snip defs. 1-4] 5. = hung-over (HUNG ppl. a. 4). 1964 I. FLEMING You only live Twice v. 60 He was considerably overhung. The hard blue eyes were veined with blood. 1974 Times 4 Apr. 20/6 A young man hurried in at about 10, looking overslept and overhung. 1977 K. BENTON Red Hen Conspiracy xiv. 115 Juan arrived..looking rather overhung. From charles_sumner at harvard.edu Fri Sep 5 07:57:45 2003 From: charles_sumner at harvard.edu (charles_sumner at harvard.edu) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 10:57:45 -0400 Subject: LoCB Comments In-Reply-To: References: <20030904225441.41ADE26C3C@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030905105308.00ad8900@camail2.harvard.edu> At 05:53 PM 9/4/2003 -0700, you wrote: > > A minor spoiler: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I also noticed, on looking for something else, that in /Yendi/, >Morrolan claims that he's never met Zerika's Easterner lover. I don't remember the Yendi textev, but is it possible that Morrolan is wrong about this? That is to say, what if he has met Zerika's Eastern lover, but isn't aware of it because he doesn't know that the person he's met is one and the same. It could also be an way of saying that he's met the person but doesn't formally know that he's her lover. Or it could be a way of telling Vlad to butt out. Charley Sumner charles_sumner at harvard.edu "Let's not jump to any conclusions." "I didn't jump. I took a tiny step, and there conclusions were." Buffy the Vampire Slayer - "Phases" From casey at the-bat.net Fri Sep 5 08:20:18 2003 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 11:20:18 -0400 Subject: LoCB Comments In-Reply-To: <20030904225441.41ADE26C3C@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: rone wrote: > Raellew at aol.com writes: > > What is the difference between a soul mate and a familiar? If there > isn't one, why does Morrolan tell Vlad he's never heard of a witch > having two familiars? > > Yeah, especially since Brimford clearly has two familiars. Two thoughts 1) All the details about Brimford's familiar(s) could be fabrication on Paarfi's part. Certainly, Loiosh, Rocza, and Ambrus show no signs of being shape changers. 2) Is there perhaps a distinction between a witch and a warlock. Paarfi has M use the latter to describe Brimford throughout LoCB. Vlad describes M (and himself) as the former. Casey From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Sep 5 08:29:52 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 10:29:52 -0500 Subject: LoCB Comments In-Reply-To: References: <20030904225441.41ADE26C3C@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <20030905152952.GA1923@infodancer.org> On Fri, Sep 05, 2003 at 11:20:18AM -0400, Casey Rousseau wrote: > rone wrote: > > Raellew at aol.com writes: > > What is the difference between a soul mate and a familiar? If there > > isn't one, why does Morrolan tell Vlad he's never heard of a witch > > having two familiars? > > Yeah, especially since Brimford clearly has two familiars. > Two thoughts > 1) All the details about Brimford's familiar(s) could be fabrication on > Paarfi's part. Certainly, Loiosh, Rocza, and Ambrus show no signs of being > shape changers. We've never seen Ambrus in a situation where he might want to. As for Loiosh and Rocza... well, if Vlad often survives because his normal-size jhereg pets have the capability to transform into PotD-size jhereg and munch his enemies, well, he's not going to advertise that, now is he? ("Hah! I have planned for your puny flying reptiles, Easterner scum!" "Ah, but have you planned for my /massive/ flying reptiles, elf?") > 2) Is there perhaps a distinction between a witch and a warlock. Paarfi has > M use the latter to describe Brimford throughout LoCB. Vlad describes M > (and himself) as the former. Quite possibly. In modern forms of witchcraft (which are not necessarily related to Brust's), I've usually heard the distinction made about a warlock being a male witch. Others claim the distinction is about morality (ie, a warlock is an *evil* male witch). -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Sep 5 09:43:21 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 09:43:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LoCB Comments Message-ID: <200309051643.h85GhLI24518@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > From: rone at ennui.org (roger n. tospott) > > Raellew at aol.com writes: > A minor spoiler: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is the difference between a soul mate and a familiar? If there > isn't one, why does Morrolan tell Vlad he's never heard of a witch > having two familiars? > > Yeah, especially since Brimford clearly has two familiars. Except that, as it stands, we don't know enough about him. After all, anyone who sees Vlad would think he had two familiars--perhaps Brimford has a story or two.... :0 Chris "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, son." - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm From alexx at theworld.com Fri Sep 5 07:54:49 2003 From: alexx at theworld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 10:54:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LoCB Comments In-Reply-To: from "David Silberstein" at Sep 04, 2003 05:53:02 PM Message-ID: <200309051454.KAA15618876@shell.TheWorld.com> > > On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, roger n. tospott wrote: > > > A minor spoiler: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I also noticed, on looking for something else, that in /Yendi/, > Morrolan claims that he's never met Zerika's Easterner lover. > > Hmph. Well, Zerika certainly is trying to be discreet, and M (at this stage of life at least) is absolutely no good at picking up on subtleties. Maybe he just doesn't *know* that Brimford is Zerika's lover. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "That man is not truly brave who is afraid either to seem to be, or to be, when it suits him, a coward." -- Edgar Allan Poe From davids at kithrup.com Fri Sep 5 12:05:44 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 12:05:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LoCB Comments In-Reply-To: <20030905152952.GA1923@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Sep 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: >On Fri, Sep 05, 2003 at 11:20:18AM -0400, Casey Rousseau > wrote: >> Two thoughts >> 1) All the details about Brimford's familiar(s) could be >> fabrication on Paarfi's part. Certainly, Loiosh, Rocza, and Ambrus >> show no signs of being shape changers. >We've never seen Ambrus in a situation where he might want to. Bah. I strongly suspect that Paarfi, not knowing a whole lot about witchcraft, misunderstood or misinterpreted the details of the events at the (9th or 10th) Battle of Dzur Mountain, and pulled the animal shape-shifting stuff out of his arse. >> 2) Is there perhaps a distinction between a witch and a warlock. >> Paarfi has M use the latter to describe Brimford throughout LoCB. >> Vlad describes M (and himself) as the former. >Quite possibly. Actually, I think it highlights Paarfi's lack of understanding of witchcraft. Note that he says that it is the translation of "boszork?ny" (which does mean "witch" in Hungarian), or rather, the masculine form. >In modern forms of witchcraft (which are not necessarily related >to Brust's), I've usually heard the distinction made about a >warlock being a male witch. What *I've* usually heard is that a male witch is a witch, and "warlock" is used for a male witch by popular culture, which doesn't understand witchcraft. > Others claim the distinction is about morality (ie, a warlock is an >*evil* male witch). The OED definition is interesting, and I thik explains why witches (of both genders) consider "warlock" to be a term of opprobrium: 1. An oath-breaker, traitor. Obs. b. A wicked person; a scoundrel, reprobate; a general term of reproach or abuse. Obs. c. A damned soul in hell. Obs. rare. 2. The Devil; Satan. Obs. Freq. in Cursor Mundi, where warlau occurs as a genitive (:OE. wrloan). b. A devil, demon, spirit of hell. Obs. rare. 3. A savage or monstrous creature (hostile to men). The word is applied to giants, cannibals, mythic beasts, etc. Obs. 4. One in league with the Devil and so possessing occult and evil powers; a sorcerer, wizard (sometimes partly imagined as inhuman or demonic, and so approaching sense 2 or 3); the male equivalent of witch. Sc. and north. dial. Frequently used by Scott, whence it has obtained some general literary currency. On the form warlock, specialized for this sense, see the etymology. b. Sc. In weaker sense, a magician, conjurer. 5. By Dryden taken to mean: A warrior magically immune from wounds inflicted by certain metals. Obs. Dryden's spelling perh. indicates that he imagined the word to be f. WAR n. + LUCK. 6. attrib. and Comb. a. Appositive or adj. Malignant, wicked (obs.); in later use, That is a warlock or wizard. b. Pertaining to a warlock or warlocks, as in warlock claw, fight, knoll, etc.; warlock brief, a charter conveying magical powers; warlock fecket Sc. (see quot. 1810). From davids at kithrup.com Fri Sep 5 12:13:29 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 12:13:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LoCB Comments In-Reply-To: <200309051454.KAA15618876@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Sep 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: >> >> On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, roger n. tospott wrote: >> >> > A minor spoiler: >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > >> I also noticed, on looking for something else, that in /Yendi/, >> Morrolan claims that he's never met Zerika's Easterner lover. >> >> Hmph. > >Well, Zerika certainly is trying to be discreet, and M (at this stage >of life at least) is absolutely no good at picking up on subtleties. >Maybe he just doesn't *know* that Brimford is Zerika's lover. > He doesn't know at the end of LoCB, but I seem to get the feeling that the Bad Guys will try to scandalize Zerika by revealing who her lover is to all and sundry, in their attempt to gain support for Illista ("*Our* Phoenix doesn't sleep with hairy, icky, filthy *Easterners*"). We will see in /Sethra Lavode/. Of course, /Yendi/ takes place a couple hundred years after LoCB, and I find it decidedly unusual that someone who helped the Empress gain her throne would never even meet her lover in all that time... From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Sep 5 12:24:56 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 14:24:56 -0500 Subject: LoCB Comments In-Reply-To: References: <20030905152952.GA1923@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20030905192456.GB1923@infodancer.org> On Fri, Sep 05, 2003 at 12:05:44PM -0700, David Silberstein wrote: > On Fri, 5 Sep 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: > >On Fri, Sep 05, 2003 at 11:20:18AM -0400, Casey Rousseau > > wrote: > >> Two thoughts > >> 1) All the details about Brimford's familiar(s) could be > >> fabrication on Paarfi's part. Certainly, Loiosh, Rocza, and Ambrus > >> show no signs of being shape changers. > >We've never seen Ambrus in a situation where he might want to. > Bah. I strongly suspect that Paarfi, not knowing a whole lot about > witchcraft, misunderstood or misinterpreted the details of the events > at the (9th or 10th) Battle of Dzur Mountain, and pulled the animal > shape-shifting stuff out of his arse. Also possible... > >In modern forms of witchcraft (which are not necessarily related > >to Brust's), I've usually heard the distinction made about a > >warlock being a male witch. > What *I've* usually heard is that a male witch is a witch, and > "warlock" is used for a male witch by popular culture, which doesn't > understand witchcraft. A "modern" witch (wiccan) will often make that claim; a witch who (claims to) follow something older than wicca will usually, in my experience, claim the opposite. Of course, the same people in the latter category also often reject the whole "an it harm none" bit and probably don't mind the negative connotation. I suspect the actual fact is that "warlock" is a perjorative term usually applied by non-witches, and which has been adopted by the sort of people who don't mind pretending to be evil as a means of attaining social status, whether real or imagined; whereas wiccans tend to prefer a nonthreatening religious posture and so disclaim the term. > 2. The Devil; Satan. Obs. > Freq. in Cursor Mundi, where warlau occurs as a > genitive (:OE. wrloan). > > b. A devil, demon, spirit of hell. Obs. rare. As I understand it, the traditional "coven" (pre-wicca) contains 13 female witches and a single male warlock. Third-party accounts often claim the warlock was the Devil, summoned by the witches. > 3. A savage or monstrous creature (hostile to men). The word > is applied to giants, cannibals, mythic beasts, etc. Obs. That's a usage I've never encountered. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Fri Sep 5 13:29:53 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 13:29:53 -0700 Subject: LoCB Comments In-Reply-To: References: <200309051454.KAA15618876@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <20030905202953.GA9794@ofb.net> On Fri, Sep 05, 2003 at 12:13:29PM -0700, David Silberstein wrote: > On Fri, 5 Sep 2003, Alexx S Kay wrote: > > >> > >> On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, roger n. tospott wrote: > >> > >> > A minor spoiler: > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Of course, /Yendi/ takes place a couple hundred years after LoCB, and > I find it decidedly unusual that someone who helped the Empress gain > her throne would never even meet her lover in all that time... I find it unlikely that Vlad could be Morrolan's security consultant, with Room of Windows access, and never meet the circle of witches. Had he even heard of them before _Issola_? I don't remember. -xx- Damien X-) From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Sep 5 16:22:59 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 19:22:59 -0400 Subject: Worried About ... Message-ID: <73A4B059.50D8E906.00048EA6@aol.com> rone at ennui.org (roger n. tospott) writes: > Gaertk at aol.com writes: >> First some bad news (and I really hate to be the bearer >> of?such, but someone has to): ?I just saw the massmarket >> edition?of POTD, and it still has a typo in the URL for >> Mark's?webpage. ?So could someone please politely inform >> the nice ?folks at Tor so this can be fixed finally? > > Given Ilen's report of Paarfi's rant regarding 'now' and > 'not', the likelihood of this being fixed seems very > remote. Still, the attempt should be made. Anyway, thanks for making this reply. I've been wondering if *anyone* bothered to read the stuff I wrote above the spoiler space. I can't believe no one has commented yet on the _Buttercup's Baby_ news. > rone > dragaeran editors' mothers wear combat boots Considering that they call themselves Glorious Montain Press, I wouldn't be surprised to find Dragonlords (male and female) in upper management. --KG From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Sep 5 16:31:54 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 19:31:54 -0400 Subject: A Mighty Thundering of LoCB Comments (No SPOILERS) Message-ID: <642F773F.4B33C9BD.00048EA6@aol.com> In a message dated 9/4/2003 2:25:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rone at ennui.org (roger n. tospott) writes: > Gaertk at aol.com writes: > >>?For anyone surprised by the actions of certain people at >> the?end of LOCB, all I can say is that you were warned. ? >>?Specifically, on the first page of chapter 18. ?(And those >>?of you discussing the Orb/Cycle/Emporer/phoenix would find >>?the rest of that chapter enlightening as well.) > > I am not certain if you mean Chapter the Eighteenth, or the > 18th chapter in LoCB, which would be Chapter the > Fifty-second. ?In either case, i find the first page rather > unenlightening in regards to there being a warning for the > sudden event, so i'm left wondering what, exactly, you > meant. Yeah, no one on rasfw understood what I meant either. (And if I meant chapter 52 I would have said so.) I re-read POTD right before LOCB. In fact, IIRC, I read the page in question on July 31 (I got a bit behind schedule), and the omission of a certain name stopped me dead, and then I noticed a second name missing, which caused me to ponder, then wonder (or is that the other way around?), and eventually speculate. --KG From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Sep 5 16:52:52 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 16:52:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A Mighty Thundering of LoCB Comments (_TLoCB SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <642F773F.4B33C9BD.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <642F773F.4B33C9BD.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > rone at ennui.org (roger n. tospott) writes: > > > Gaertk at aol.com writes: > > > >>?For anyone surprised by the actions of certain people at > >> the?end of LOCB, all I can say is that you were warned. ? > >>?Specifically, on the first page of chapter 18. ?(And those > >>?of you discussing the Orb/Cycle/Emporer/phoenix would find > >>?the rest of that chapter enlightening as well.) > > > > I am not certain if you mean Chapter the Eighteenth, or the > > 18th chapter in LoCB, which would be Chapter the > > Fifty-second. ?In either case, i find the first page rather > > unenlightening in regards to there being a warning for the > > sudden event, so i'm left wondering what, exactly, you > > meant. > > Yeah, no one on rasfw understood what I meant either. (And > if I meant chapter 52 I would have said so.) > > I re-read POTD right before LOCB. In fact, IIRC, I read the > page in question on July 31 (I got a bit behind schedule), > and the omission of a certain name stopped me dead, and then > I noticed a second name missing, which caused me to ponder, > then wonder (or is that the other way around?), and > eventually speculate. Allowing myself to speculate about another's speculation, there's a list of admirable people which consists of Sethra and Aerich. No Khaavren, no Pel, no Piro. No Morrolan either for that matter, but maybe he's considered to be still finding his way. Anyway, perhaps Pel is playing a deeper game than we think (no, that's ridiculous, he's got all he wanted). Hmm, no Zerika. Perhaps when the gossip breaks she'll have Pel starred without a chance to orb-testify. Perhaps Khaavren will have to kill Piro to prevent some disaster. Perhaps someone else should try this guessing game because the above isn't convincing even me. From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Sep 5 17:33:55 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 20:33:55 -0400 Subject: A Mighty Thundering of LoCB Comments (_TLoCB SPOILERS) Message-ID: <04E01A69.2F2F71D6.00048EA6@aol.com> Philip Hart writes: Quick poll: Is spoiler space still needed? [Talking about POTD, chapter 18, first page] > Allowing myself to speculate about another's speculation, > there's a list of admirable people which consists of Sethra > and Aerich. ?No Khaavren, no Pel, no Piro. It was Khaavren that really caught my attention, and then Piro. After all, the Paarfi books are (collectively) named after those two. >?No Morrolan either for that matter, but maybe he's > considered to be still finding his way. That sounds good. (And I loved Paarfi's comments about his surprising motivational speeches.) >?Anyway, perhaps Pel is playing a deeper game than we think Who, Pel? Nahh.... > (no, that's ridiculous, he's got all he wanted). Well, he got what was his final goal thrown at him unexpectedly (and nearly fumbled it). I assume he's got a whole bunch of power-enhancing plots and schemes still active that he'll have to shut down or otherwise change now. And if Zerika keeps him busy in his new job, he may forget one or two. > Hmm, no Zerika. ?Perhaps when the gossip breaks she'll have > Pel starred without a chance to orb-testify. I don't think the Bad Guys (or should I say Bad Gals?) actually intend to spread that gossip. After all, they believe it will harm Pel, not Zerika. I suspect they'll apporach Zerika somehow and tell her that Pel has been, well, indiscreet. >?Perhaps Khaavren will have to kill Piro to prevent some > disaster. ?Perhaps someone else should try this guessing > game because the above isn't convincing even me. Well, only the last one fails to be reasonable (and therefore it's probably the one most likely to be true). --KG From pgranzeau at cox.net Fri Sep 5 17:31:12 2003 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 19:31:12 -0500 Subject: A Mighty Thundering of LoCB Comments (_TLoCB SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: References: <642F773F.4B33C9BD.00048EA6@aol.com> <642F773F.4B33C9BD.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030905192912.01dca4f0@pop.east.cox.net> At 18:52 09/05/2003, Philip Hart wrote: >Allowing myself to speculate about another's speculation, there's a list >of admirable people which consists of Sethra and Aerich. No Khaavren, no >Pel, no Piro. No Morrolan either for that matter, but maybe he's >considered to be still finding his way. Anyway, perhaps Pel is playing a >deeper game than we think (no, that's ridiculous, he's got all he wanted). >Hmm, no Zerika. Perhaps when the gossip breaks she'll have Pel starred >without a chance to orb-testify. Perhaps Khaavren will have to kill >Piro to prevent some disaster. Perhaps someone else should try this >guessing game because the above isn't convincing even me. The mention of Pel and Zerika made me think of something--When she had that conversation with him as a Discreet, did she take his advice to mean what she wanted, rather than what he meant? -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From davids at kithrup.com Sat Sep 6 00:10:28 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 00:10:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A Mighty Thundering of LoCB Comments (_TLoCB SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: <04E01A69.2F2F71D6.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >Philip Hart writes: > > >Quick poll: Is spoiler space still needed? > > > > > > > >[Talking about POTD, chapter 18, first page] > >> Allowing myself to speculate about another's speculation, >> there's a list of admirable people which consists of Sethra >> and Aerich. ?No Khaavren, no Pel, no Piro. > >It was Khaavren that really caught my attention, and then >Piro. After all, the Paarfi books are (collectively) named >after those two. Bah. I think you're reading too much into it. A far more likely interpretation is that Sethra Lavode & Aerich are the most admirable because they have the fewest personal weaknesses (Khaavren is despairing, Tazendra is reckless, Pel is prideful and ambitious to the point of dangerous arrogance, Piro is self-absorbed and by Dragaeran standards, perverse), and when he says "and, we hope, many others", he may well be referring to those persons who will in fact overcome their weaknesses, which we have seen Khaavren & Pel & Tazendra, to some extent, already do. > >> Hmm, no Zerika. ?Perhaps when the gossip breaks she'll have >> Pel starred without a chance to orb-testify. > >I don't think the Bad Guys (or should I say Bad Gals?) >actually intend to spread that gossip. After all, they >believe it will harm Pel, not Zerika. I suspect they'll >apporach Zerika somehow and tell her that Pel has been, >well, indiscreet. > Well, that won't work, if the Orb can verify truth. Unless... (sudden thought) what they are in fact planning is to release the gossip at the same time that they strike at Pel physically, and make it look like he either turned traitor or simply buggered off. Unable to defend his integrity, he will not be avenged/searched for. Or something similar, since that will neatly allow them their revenge doubled (Pel will be captured/dead, and those who trusted him will think him a traitor). Which, if it does in fact occur, will make me think that there's another Yendi in there plotting this thing... My other thought was to what the cabal of Dragon, Phoenix & bastard Dzur-Tsalmoth are up to is that they are attempting at the end of LoCB is to either turn a god into a demon, or, at best, *bribe* a god somehow to get the Orb from Zerika to Illista. Note that Lady Teldra may have given us the hint as to how well that works out. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sat Sep 6 01:01:11 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 01:01:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A Mighty Thundering of LoCB Comments (_TLoCB SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Sep 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > >Philip Hart writes: >>>> slightly cagey post snipped: > >> Allowing myself to speculate about another's speculation, > My other thought was to what the cabal of Dragon, Phoenix & bastard > Dzur-Tsalmoth are up to is that they are attempting at the end of LoCB > is to either turn a god into a demon, or, at best, *bribe* a god > somehow to get the Orb from Zerika to Illista. I think "enlist" would be the journalistic word. > Note that Lady Teldra may have given us the hint as to how well that > works out. Are people getting cagey, and if so why? The obvious inference from Teldra's comments about Tri'nagore not showing up at the poker game anymore (_Issola_, pages 136-137) has been bandied about here. I vote we leave the enticing of readers by hinting at facts to the Master. Actually, now that you phrase it this way, it seems to me that Teldra could have told Vlad straight out that Tri'nagore decided to jump out in front of the Cycle, a fact which I imagine will come out in _The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain_ (which I refuse to call anything else). However, maybe this is a case of Teldra not wanting to say anything bad about someOne she hasn't met or Who has incurred the consequences of jumping out in front of the Cycle. On this point, note that we see (_TLoCB_, pg 389) Ordwynac bow to the inevitable and give up on Kana, leaving only one god to carry on the opposition to the impending satisfying triumph of our side. From kknolte at ecity.net Sat Sep 6 03:25:34 2003 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 11:25:34 +0100 Subject: [Spoilers] LoCB Questions References: Message-ID: <3F59B61D.611C@ecity.net> James Griffin wrote: > > > > >Mario is Mario. Obviously. ;) > > Actually, I thought it was obvious that Mario is, in fact, Verra. Isn't > EVERYONE just Verra in a different time/place/shape/personallity? (Except > perhaps the Jenoine or S L/ Kiera) And Verra is obviously also the soul in Blackwand. The reason she's called the Demon Goddess is because one aspect is bound to Blackwand, although free in other aspects and so a goddess. Verra must find Dragonlords irresistably sexy. Karen From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Sat Sep 6 10:15:53 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 10:15:53 -0700 Subject: A Mighty Thundering of LoCB Comments (_TLoCB SPOILERS) In-Reply-To: References: <04E01A69.2F2F71D6.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030906171553.GA1434@ofb.net> On Sat, Sep 06, 2003 at 12:10:28AM -0700, David Silberstein wrote: > Bah. I think you're reading too much into it. A far more likely > interpretation is that Sethra Lavode & Aerich are the most admirable > because they have the fewest personal weaknesses (Khaavren is Speaking of which. Sethra is a spooky legend to Kragar in _Taltos_. I think Paarfi writes about how feared and misunderstood she is. I wonder how much scandal or controversy there would be in Dragaera about his books presenting her as so good and human. Of course she has served in court, and supposedly appeared there right before the Disaster... presumably the power elite is less superstitious of her (while fearing her real power...) but what about the 'middle class' of lower nobility buying Paarfi's books? -xx- Damien X-) From rone at ennui.org Sat Sep 6 11:29:26 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (roger n. tospott) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 11:29:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: _Sethra Lavode_ listed on amazon.com Message-ID: <20030906182926.E05F826C43@boredom.ennui.org> Estimated publishing date: April 2004. Noticed this on the LoCB amazon.com page: From Publishers Weekly: Full enjoyment and occasionally mere understanding of Brust's first book in his Viscount of Adrilankha series, Paths of Glory (2002)... rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From toubib21 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 6 20:55:19 2003 From: toubib21 at yahoo.com (Toubib) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 20:55:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) Message-ID: <20030907035519.13650.qmail@web40105.mail.yahoo.com> Hello all, Just joined the list, but I've been a fan of the books for a long time. What I got from both Dragon and Issola is that a great weapon's first state is that of Gold Phoenix stone. It's obvious that Spellbreaker had the personality of Godslayer from it's reaction to Verre in Issola. So I don't think it has to have a soul to bond with, cause the Serioli have already given it on. It just so happened that while the Morgantti dagger was doing it's job of destroying Lady Teldra's soul, Vlad used what ever power he used, possible one of Spellbreakers ingrained abilities since a great weapon will protect a soul, to bond her soul with the blade. And while I don't think it has to be a particular Morgantti blade to become a great weapon, I do believe that it has to be very powerful. I just can't see the god dismantling Godslayer, and then giving the Morgantti blade into the hands of the Jenoine. So there's my two cents. Doc __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Sat Sep 6 23:58:07 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 02:58:07 -0400 Subject: _Sethra Lavode_ listed on amazon.com In-Reply-To: <20030906182926.E05F826C43@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20030906182926.E05F826C43@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <3F5AD6FF.1020708@earthlink.net> roger n. tospott wrote: >Estimated publishing date: April 2004. > >Noticed this on the LoCB amazon.com page: > > From Publishers Weekly: > Full enjoyment and occasionally mere understanding of Brust's first > book in his Viscount of Adrilankha series, Paths of Glory (2002)... > > They couldn't even bother to look at the title page? That's sad... Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Sun Sep 7 19:03:09 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 19:03:09 -0700 Subject: Great Weapons (was Possible spoilers for _Sethra Lavode_ (was Re: Dumas)) In-Reply-To: <20030907035519.13650.qmail@web40105.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030907035519.13650.qmail@web40105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030908020309.GA12234@ofb.net> On Sat, Sep 06, 2003 at 08:55:19PM -0700, Toubib wrote: > What I got from both Dragon and Issola is that a great > weapon's first state is that of Gold Phoenix stone. I don't think there's anything to support that. *Spellbreaker* which went into Godslayer was apparently made from gold Phoenix stone, but that's to support Godslayer's ability of cutting through sorcerous protection. -xx- Damien X-) From catman12 at bigpond.com Mon Sep 8 02:26:00 2003 From: catman12 at bigpond.com (Andrew) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 19:26:00 +1000 Subject: [Spoilers] LoCB Questions Message-ID: <0HKW00DBT29NW4@mta03ps.email.bigpond.com> I don't see why there is any need to worry about it, it's probably a common subject of conjecture amoungst Jhereg all over the Empire, whenever they've got spare time to shoot the breeze together, between assasinations, of course. Kind of brlngs you closer to the imagined world we all enjoy. rone at ennui.org (roger n. tospott) wrote: __________ >Steve Hubbell writes: > Note 2: I still think Tukko / Chaz is really Mario > >You know, every time one of you comes up with a hare-brained "X is >really Mario" idea, Steve rubs his hands gleefully and cackles. > From greyw01f at hotmail.com Mon Sep 8 13:22:59 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 20:22:59 +0000 Subject: Concerning the Great Sea of Chaos Message-ID: >As I understand it, what the e'Kieron line can do is actually create >amorphia, and turn that into stones which can then be used to perform >certain types of Elder Sorcery. But creating a stone from already >existing amorphia may be possible for non-e'Kierons. For some reason, this paragraph gave me a fairly interesting realization about Elder Sorcery. The E'Kieron line can *create* raw chaos. Everyone else has to draw it through the orb, unless they are in relatively close proximity to either the Lesser or Greater Seas. The stones, however, work as magnifiers, focusers, and channels, simultaneously amplifying, concentrating and defining (directing) the raw chaos. This is why Adron was able to use this great spell of Pre-Empire Sorcery, I think. There are certain textevs that might indicate that chaos could also be stored in these stones, but nothing, I think, that would be sufficient to supply enough power to challenge the orb. Adron only needs to create a drop of raw chaos, and let the stones direct it >from there--allowing it to spread, but only in a specific way. No other sorceror, I think, could have done what Adron did, because they weren't near to the Greater Sea, and/or couldn't store enough chaos to achieve a similar result. In short, the stones that Adron set up were originally like a map/recipe for the chaos to follow--amplify here, spread there, concentrate here, turn into this actuality there. I'm not sure what his original map would have had the chaos become, but after the searching of Aliera's apartments in FHYA, he apparently changes his map/recipe to become a direct manipulation of the Cycle, probably by removing Tortaalik and placing Adron on the throne--which by the way, was a noble act of self-sacrifice on Adron's part--we all know all Dragonlords want to be Warlord, not Emperor. One might argue that any stone being used as a battery could release chaos, as is seen in _Issola_ back into an uncontrolled state--but that would create, well, chaos. Adron's spell was very very complex and specific. Could a battery be used and then a map be put in place to direct its flow? If my theory is correct, then no. Why not, I have no idea. I'll keep working on it. Perhaps it's something as simple as no one had the balls or the inclination to do something like that--or the skill. Maybe my theory's entirely wrong, too. That's always possible :) Jon _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From greyw01f at hotmail.com Mon Sep 8 13:55:59 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 20:55:59 +0000 Subject: Great Weapons Message-ID: > > > Philip Hart writes: > > On the subject, I would like to once again assert that Morrolan's taking > > Blackwand into the Paths, when he fully expects to be staying, is an > > annoying flaw in _Taltos_, which if anyone can explain away I'd be > > grateful. > > > > Just an oversight on my part. I completely forgot that, when going into > great danger, someone who owns a powerful artifact that might save his life > will naturally leave this artifact behind. What was I thinking? While it seems like setting myself up as Job to continue the argument, Morrolan, to quote someone I tend to agree with, "fully expects to be staying." The main use for Blackwand I can see would be to slay all the Gods and destroy the control system of the Paths so he could walk out alive. As it happens, he makes no use of Blackwand per se. I suppose that on the other hand in extremis M could have given BW to Aliera, who no doubt would have been an acceptable substitute. That likely refutes my main objection, which is that he was depriving the good guys of one of their main weapons against the J. Of course A would have insisted on staying, as he should have foreseen. On the other hand, no doubt the Gods could have shipped Blackwand back to Sethra somehow (some way that wouldn't have worked for the Orb...) in that case, and perhaps suitable wielders of BW abound... I'm still somewhat skeptical. __________________________ I seem to recall it somewhere being said that there is no quicker way into obliteration than to touch another's Great Weapon (at least, when the someone is the person for whom the Weapon is destined). It's a vital safeguard that prevents the wielder being killed out of greed for the power that s/he carries around on her/his hip. I believe, though it's never been explicitly stated, that it's also very difficult for the wielders to even separate themselves from a Great Weapon, much less have someone else touch it. This would explain not only why Morrolan takes Blackwand (I mean, soulmates are together no matter WHERE they are in relation to each other--that's part of the definition of a soulmate: A person who is attached to another person's soul, with the obvious implication that the soul is all but inseperable from the body of the other, and therefore, the two are always together). I think that, given the pointlessness of leaving Blackwand behind, it's pretty much explained why he took it along, and furthermore, why it was never mentioned as a problem. If it was going to be a problem, leaving it behind would probably not do too much to prevent it. Jon _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From greyw01f at hotmail.com Mon Sep 8 15:04:03 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 22:04:03 +0000 Subject: LoCB comments &_Sethra Lavode_ Message-ID: I think it's more likely that Paarfi is embellishing in order to get a point across: This man is a Witch. I recall reading in some books from my childhood (The Belgariad/Mallorean/Belgarath/Polgara) that in some texts the authors simply couldn't stand writing the simple truth, and needed to embellish with silly bits of magic and whatnot (The coldness of the winter turning Belgarath's hair white, when in reality it was simply age) In any event, I'm fairly sure that Paarfi is taking a few creative liberties. We should be careful how much we swallow that comes from Paarfi--he seems almost hopelessly juvenile at points. I really WOULD like to see Paarfi write Sethra Lavode and mention the trip into the POTD with an Easterner---just to see how he relates the story. >From there, we could cross-reference, and determine which seems more likely. Although I must add that it seems positively unlikely--Vlad wouldn't like Paarfi as much, and would not be inclined to go back in his mind to his travels into the POTD for the sake of posterity--especially watered-down, over-written posterity. Granted, Paarfi should have extensive material to write from, assuming he can figure out the playback feature on the metal box, but still.... Jon _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Mon Sep 8 15:04:35 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 15:04:35 -0700 Subject: Concerning the Great Sea of Chaos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030908220435.GA23232@ofb.net> On Mon, Sep 08, 2003 at 08:22:59PM +0000, Jon Carey wrote: > > >As I understand it, what the e'Kieron line can do is actually create > >amorphia, and turn that into stones which can then be used to perform > >certain types of Elder Sorcery. But creating a stone from already > >existing amorphia may be possible for non-e'Kierons. > > The E'Kieron line can *create* raw chaos. Everyone else has to draw it > through the orb, unless they are in relatively close proximity to either I don't think Imperial sorcerers are working with draw chaos -- that's dangerous stuff. Pre-Imperial sorcery is the manipulation of raw chaos (or one step removed, was it?) E'Kieron's can make and manipulate the stuff, elder sorcerers either get the stuff from stones and manipulate it, or are manipulating iliaster (the one step removed) emitted from the stone, Imperials are either drawing iliaster from the Orb without messing with any chaos or are programming the Orb to have certain effects on reality, without manipulating iliaster themselves. Though the view of sorcery in _Brokedown Palace_ seemed to argue against something that abstract. (Ironically, the Fenarian novel may have given us our best info.) Of course, a different elder approach might be... instead of getting iliaster >from the chaos and using it, you use the chaos to weaken the resistance of reality and use your own native iliaster ("witchraft") to reach in and twist and change things. -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Mon Sep 8 15:06:36 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 15:06:36 -0700 Subject: LoCB comments &_Sethra Lavode_ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030908220636.GB23232@ofb.net> On Mon, Sep 08, 2003 at 10:04:03PM +0000, Jon Carey wrote: > Although I must add that it seems positively unlikely--Vlad wouldn't like > Paarfi as much, and would not be inclined to go back in his mind to his > travels into the POTD for the sake of posterity--especially watered-down, > over-written posterity. Granted, Paarfi should have extensive material to Vlad does count Daymar as a friend (if an annoying one) (Vlad seems the sort of person to go on about how annoying his friends are, rather than how cool they are, friendship being measured by the fact that he's going on about them at all) and Vlad seems to *read* Paarfi for fun. -xx- Damien X-) From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Sep 9 01:52:58 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 01:52:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: a vial of blood In-Reply-To: <3F59B61D.611C@ecity.net> References: <3F59B61D.611C@ecity.net> Message-ID: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/09/nyregion/09FUNE.html The article describes the last of the burials of the 343 firefighters lost at the WTC on 9/11. Michael Ragusa's family had postponed the service, hoping his body would be found, but his remains were never identified. The coffin contained a vial of blood from a donation he had made to a bone-marrow clinic. Michael Ragusa was 29. From melalvai at kemenel.org Tue Sep 9 08:06:57 2003 From: melalvai at kemenel.org (Rachel L. Ruhlen) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 10:06:57 -0500 Subject: Black box In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Jon Carey [mailto:greyw01f at hotmail.com] >over-written posterity. Granted, Paarfi should have extensive material to >write from, assuming he can figure out the playback feature on the metal >box, but still.... This reminded me strongly of my grandad (82 y.o.). I was visiting a couple weeks ago, and listening to him talk nonstop, nodding & smiling occassionally, when he mentioned a tape his youngest son had made in May, interviewing him about relatives, ancestors, family history. He'd never heard the tape, and the son died a few days later (cardiac arrest; it was very sad). Grandad was convinced the tape had been erased or lost because of all the grandkids trooping through for the funeral & all. I pulled the tape recorder out, rewound the tape that was in it, and he & I listened to the voice of my uncle out of that little black box. We both had tears in our eyes. Well, it doesn't really have much to do with Paarfi. Other than that Grandad has no idea how a tape recorder works, or any other of that advanced technology. I wonder if Paarfi can operate email. >In any event, I'm fairly sure that Paarfi is taking a few creative >liberties. We should be careful how much we swallow that comes from >Paarfi--he seems almost hopelessly juvenile at points. Well, that's a lot like my Grandad. I wouldn't say juvenile, then! Rachel From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Sep 9 23:02:43 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 23:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Sep 2003, Jon Carey wrote: > > > > > Philip Hart writes: > > > On the subject, I would like to once again assert that Morrolan's > taking > > > Blackwand into the Paths, when he fully expects to be staying, is an > > > annoying flaw in _Taltos_, which if anyone can explain away I'd be > > > grateful. > > > > > > > Just an oversight on my part. I completely forgot that, when going into > > great danger, someone who owns a powerful artifact that might save his > life > > will naturally leave this artifact behind. What was I thinking? > > While it seems like setting myself up as Job to continue the argument, > Morrolan, to quote someone I tend to agree with, "fully expects to be > staying." The main use for Blackwand I can see would be to slay all the > Gods and destroy the control system of the Paths so he could walk out > alive. As it happens, he makes no use of Blackwand per se. > > I suppose that on the other hand in extremis M could have given BW > to Aliera, who no doubt would have been an acceptable substitute. That > likely refutes my main objection, which is that he was depriving the good > guys of one of their main weapons against the J. Of course A would have > insisted on staying, as he should have foreseen. On the other hand, no > doubt the Gods could have shipped Blackwand back to Sethra somehow (some > way that wouldn't have worked for the Orb...) in that case, and perhaps > suitable wielders of BW abound... > > I'm still somewhat skeptical. > > __________________________ > > > > > > > I seem to recall it somewhere being said that there is no quicker way into > obliteration than to touch another's Great Weapon (at least, when the > someone is the person for whom the Weapon is destined). It's a vital > safeguard that prevents the wielder being killed out of greed for the power > that s/he carries around on her/his hip. Ok, I'm as bored of this low-information-content argument as the rest, but I can't miss the chance to point out you're quoting Vlad, who often can't pass up an opportunity to sound like he knows what he's talking about. For the record, he himself survives touching BW. > I believe, though it's never been explicitly stated, that it's also very > difficult for the wielders to even separate themselves from a Great Weapon, > much less have someone else touch it. This would explain not only why > Morrolan takes Blackwand (I mean, soulmates are together no matter WHERE > they are in relation to each other--that's part of the definition of a > soulmate: A person who is attached to another person's soul, with the > obvious implication that the soul is all but inseperable from the body of > the other, and therefore, the two are always together). I don't know if this is true. I don't see Morrolan getting a lot of dates if he has to keep BW (not a romantic mood enhancer, even sheathed) on his hip. Also I don't think the byplay at the end of _Orca_ is entirely consistent with this idea. > I think that, given the pointlessness of leaving Blackwand behind, The point was so Sethra could give it to the next wielder in case the expected but heroically prevented outcome of a stroll in the Paths was realized and the restless J chose that moment to woke up from their winter nap. It seems to me that Morrolan has no business going around risking his life adventuring with Vlad. Well, see above, maybe there was a lot of exposition about why I'm wrong that Vlad missed because Sethra and Morrolan didn't trust him yet (well, except with half a Great Weapon and Aliera's life.) > it's pretty much explained why he took it along, and furthermore, why it > was never mentioned as a problem. If it was going to be a problem, > leaving it behind would probably not do too much to prevent it. > > Jon > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > From djshathe at hotmail.com Tue Sep 9 23:40:21 2003 From: djshathe at hotmail.com (Dejin Shathe) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 16:40:21 +1000 Subject: Great Weapons Message-ID: >I believe, though it's never been explicitly stated, that it's also very >difficult for the wielders to even separate themselves from a Great Weapon, >much less have someone else touch it. This would explain not only why >Morrolan takes Blackwand (I mean, soulmates are together no matter WHERE >they are in relation to each other--that's part of the definition of a >soulmate: A person who is attached to another person's soul, with the >obvious implication that the soul is all but inseperable from the body of >the other, and therefore, the two are always together). As to this, I would only ask whether Kiera carries Iceflame. I would think that no GW has spent so much time and forged so string a bond with the one weilder than Iceflame has. Cheers, -Dejin- "It is a fool's prerogative to utter truths that no-one else will speak." _________________________________________________________________ Get less junk mail with ninemsn Premium. Click here http://ninemsn.com.au/premium/landing.asp From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Tue Sep 9 23:54:04 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 23:54:04 -0700 Subject: Great Weapons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0iitlvg3uun4nbc1uq7onresk8rsq9b60d@4ax.com> On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 16:40:21 +1000, you wrote: > >>I believe, though it's never been explicitly stated, that it's also very >>difficult for the wielders to even separate themselves from a Great Weapon, >>much less have someone else touch it. This would explain not only why >>Morrolan takes Blackwand (I mean, soulmates are together no matter WHERE >>they are in relation to each other--that's part of the definition of a >>soulmate: A person who is attached to another person's soul, with the >>obvious implication that the soul is all but inseperable from the body of >>the other, and therefore, the two are always together). > >As to this, I would only ask whether Kiera carries Iceflame. I would think >that no GW has spent so much time and forged so string a bond with the one >weilder than Iceflame has. > I thought about this the last time I read Orca, and came up with the answer. Remember in Issola, when Morrolan had a ring that suddenly turned into his wizard's staff? It's probable that Iceflame hides itself in a similar fashion. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From yaga at berkano.pair.com Wed Sep 10 00:12:37 2003 From: yaga at berkano.pair.com (yaga at berkano.pair.com) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 03:12:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Grita's origins -- a speculation [LoCB, TPotD, FHYA Spoilers] Message-ID: <20030910071237.4354.qmail@berkano.pair.com> Hullo. My first post. Forgive me if this has been covered, but I could not find mention of it in the archives. Without further ado, I propose: Grita (Orlaan) is the child of Greycat (Garland) and Sennya (Duchess of Blackbirdriver) and therefore Ibronka's half-sister Proof: (such as it is) - Grita is described in FYHA as a Dzur/Tsalmoth (pg 66) - Garland is Grita's father (various, but first at the end of FYA) - Garland is a Tsalmoth (TPG, 235 "He had..the sinewy legs and arms of the Tsalmoth") - Garland claims to Dunaan as holding sway over Sennya via scandal (FHYA, 393) - Grita and Garland then discuss this on pgs 395-396 (cues mine) GRI:"There are times when I am ashamed to know you" Gar:"How, you refer to my plan to appease the Jhereg?" GRI:"No." Gar:"Then you refer--" GRI:"Yes." Gar:"I had not known you cared." GRI:"I do not." Gar:"Well, then?" GRI:"Nevertheless, that you would use--" Gar:"I have not asked for your opinion" - Ibronka's mother vhemently (though secondhandly reported) opposes Ibronka's coupling outside her house (LoCB, pg...shoot, near the end) which, while a typical response at the time, is, nonetheless, apropos. Which will most like be a plot point in SL when the inevitable showdown between Piro et al and Grita occurs. I have formed this theory whilst re-reading FYA after reading TPotD and LoCB, and am still looking for corroboration (or conflicting) evidence in those latter books. Thoughts? Peter / Yaga From greyw01f at hotmail.com Wed Sep 10 07:07:07 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:07:07 +0000 Subject: Great Weapons (SPOILERS) Message-ID: >Ok, I'm as bored of this low-information-content argument as the rest, but >I can't miss the chance to point out you're quoting Vlad, who often can't >pass up an opportunity to sound like he knows what he's talking about. >For the record, he himself survives touching BW. This seems a fairly valid point; but as you recall, BW does what it feels like. If an enemy, or someone BW did not want touching her, touched her, I think hilarity would ensue. Vlad touched her because Morrolan *wanted* him to, and therefore BW herself was willing to suffer it. >> I believe, though it's never been explicitly stated, that it's also very >> difficult for the wielders to even separate themselves from a Great Weapon, >> much less have someone else touch it. This would explain not only why >> Morrolan takes Blackwand (I mean, soulmates are together no matter WHERE >> they are in relation to each other--that's part of the definition of a >> soulmate: A person who is attached to another person's soul, with the >> obvious implication that the soul is all but inseperable from the body of >> the other, and therefore, the two are always together). SPOILER SPACE >I don't know if this is true. I don't see Morrolan getting a lot of dates >if he has to keep BW (not a romantic mood enhancer, even sheathed) on his >hip. Also I don't think the byplay at the end of _Orca_ is entirely >consistent with this idea. I think you're missing my point. It revolves around an abstract kind of connection. For an instance, _Orca_ will do wonderfully. Sethra does not physically *have* Iceflame on her hip, but she could summon in an instant, should she require it. It would be rather embarrassing, don't you think, if the Jenoine chose a time when Sethra was gallivanting about as Kiera, and thus couldn't get to her weapon as fast as she possibly could. However, Sethra is Sethra, so maybe such a thing isn't possible with other GWs---but on the same line of thought, GWs are GWs. Besides, just to be petty, I don't think Morrolan would date anyone other than a Dragonlord, and I think a Dragonlord would feel, while nervous, maybe a little exhilirated sitting next to that kind of power. Or maybe it would be Morrolan's fame and honour that would do the exhilirating. But I think Dragonlord women probably find him irresistable--it's just that he doesn't seem to desire a date. Possibly because he already has Verra as a soulmate (if what he says can be believed in _POTD_, and a fiery female familiar, as well.) >>I think that, given the pointlessness of leaving Blackwand behind, >The point was so Sethra could give it to the next wielder in case the >expected but heroically prevented outcome of a stroll in the Paths was >realized and the restless J chose that moment to woke up from their winter >nap. It seems to me that Morrolan has no business going around risking >his life adventuring with Vlad. Well, see above, maybe there was a lot of >exposition about why I'm wrong that Vlad missed because Sethra and >Morrolan didn't trust him yet (well, except with half a Great Weapon and >Aliera's life.) I think if the Jenoine came, the gods would decide to take BW and give it to someone else, or barring that because of Morrolan's connection to it, decide another exception was regrettable but necessary, and cough him up to do his work. In conclusion, I don't think Steve made such a mistake as it may seem. Kudos on such a clever ploy, Steve ;P Jon _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From alexx at TheWorld.com Wed Sep 10 07:12:44 2003 From: alexx at TheWorld.com (Alexx S Kay) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 10:12:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Grita's origins -- a speculation [LoCB, TPotD, FHYA Spoilers] In-Reply-To: <20030910071237.4354.qmail@berkano.pair.com> from "yaga@berkano.pair.com" at Sep 10, 2003 03:12:37 AM Message-ID: <200309101412.KAA16525708@shell.TheWorld.com> > > Hullo. > > My first post. Forgive me if this has been covered, but I could not find mention of it in the archives. > > Without further ado, I propose: > > Grita (Orlaan) is the child of Greycat (Garland) and Sennya (Duchess of Blackbirdriver) and therefore Ibronka's half-sister > Thoughts? Agreement. Two more bits of evidence, which, though circumstantial, do support the case: PoD page 154: Sennya, while thinking of Ibronka, muses about the many errors in her life, including one specific (though undescribed) occasion when she was "weak". PoD page 233: Sennya, after events around the time of FHYA, which Paarfi alludes to but does not descibe, decides to give up ostentation and focus her efforts on raising Ibronka, "the daughter who was now, to her, the only reason for living." In point of fact, when a similar discussion happened recently on rec.arts.sf.written, I was rather surprised to find that Grita's parentage had never been made explicit, and that some readers had missed the, to my mind, quite broad hints about it. Alexx Alexx Kay Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers alexx at world.std.com http://world.std.com/~alexx "...my fictional William Gull ("Sidney Greenstreet after a crash course at the Abby of Thelema," as Iain Sinclair recently, with heartless accuracy, described him)." -- Alan Moore in correspondence with Dave Sim about _From Hell_ From greyw01f at hotmail.com Wed Sep 10 14:26:12 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 21:26:12 +0000 Subject: Great Weapons (SPOILERS) Message-ID: Guilty as charged. :) Jon (Farker Greywolf) ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Warlord" To: "Jon Carey" Subject: RE: Great Weapons (SPOILERS) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 11:50:13 -0400 > like. If an enemy, or someone BW did not want touching her, > touched her, I > think hilarity would ensue. The above phrase leads me to believe that I have found a fellow farker (www.fark.com). W _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From mam at theworld.com Wed Sep 10 14:52:26 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 17:52:26 -0400 Subject: filk: You don't mess with Sethra Lavode Message-ID: The title line came into my head, and then I just had to figure out the rest of it. I don't remember the tune of the original verse -- chorus, yes, but not the verse, and I may be confusing it with "Bad, Bad Leroy Brown" or something entirely different, and so it may not scan well; ditto for the spoken coda. The chords are in there as I got them for the original, from a Web site whose URL I have unfortunately misplaced. The extra lines in the final chorus (4 and 5) use approx. the same tune as "you don't mess around with" for each half of each of those lines. I'm sure that if we ever find out more about the episode referred to here than the little we already know, a lot of this will prove to be wrong in terms of plot. You don't mess with Sethra Lavode ttto You Don't Mess Around With Jim, by Jim Croce Mark A. Mandel Copr. 2003 Athyra got their wands and staves, [G] Dragonlords their swords [G] The whole Empire got Sethra Lavode [G] And she's older than the Orb. [G7] She's the Enchantress of Dzur Mountain [C F C F] She's a Dzur and a Dragon too [C F C] Been Warlord more times than anybody can count [D C] And she sure ain't afraid of you. [D C] What they say is ... [G C G] [Chorus] You don't spit in a Dragon's face [C7 G] You don't challenge a Dzur for the road [C7 G] You don't turn informer on the Organization [C7] And you don't mess with Sethra Lavode. [D7 G C7 G C7] Well, outa nowhere come a nine-foot Jenoine, [G] Said, "I am looking for Sethra Lavode. You _products_ cannot pronounce my name But some of you call me 'Toad'. [G7] She has something that does not belong to her [C F C F] And she is standing in our way." [C F C] The zombie said, "I'll announce you, sir, [D C] But you know, sir, what they say. [D C] Sir, they all say..." [G C G] [Chorus] Well, then Sethra herself walked into the room [G] And she brought a couple of friends. There were swords & spells & energy fields And by the time it all came to an end [G7] The Enchantress was dead tired [C F C F] But the Jenoine was just plain dead [C F C] The story was declared an Imperial Secret [D C] But the ones that heard it said, [D C] Yeah, they all said... [G C G] [Chorus] [Spoken, use G-C progression] Yeah, Toad got a big surprise Right between his bulgy eyes. Even if she came from the rock of Dzur Mountain Don't take Sethra Lavode for granite. [Final chorus] You don't spit in a Dragon's face You don't challenge a Dzur for the road You don't turn informer on the Organization And whatever you do, whatever you do, If you value your life & if you value your soul, You don't mess with Sethra Lavode. -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname http://world.std.com/~mam/filk.html Now on the Filker's Bardic Webring! http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From Gaertk at aol.com Wed Sep 10 16:01:22 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 19:01:22 -0400 Subject: filk: You don't mess with Sethra Lavode Message-ID: <08FCB9FB.6DDE1BC9.00048EA6@aol.com> Mark A Mandel writes: > Even if she came from the rock of Dzur Mountain > Don't take Sethra Lavode for granite. *Groan* You should be ashamed of yourself. --KG From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Wed Sep 10 16:05:33 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 16:05:33 -0700 Subject: filk: You don't mess with Sethra Lavode In-Reply-To: <08FCB9FB.6DDE1BC9.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <08FCB9FB.6DDE1BC9.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030910230533.GA1494@ofb.net> On Wed, Sep 10, 2003 at 07:01:22PM -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > Mark A Mandel writes: > > > Even if she came from the rock of Dzur Mountain > > Don't take Sethra Lavode for granite. > > *Groan* > You should be ashamed of yourself. Hey, that's a ref to one of the Horta filks, isn't it? Possibly the Roundworm parody... oh wait, it'd be simpler to just be a ref to the Star Trek episode. -xx- Damien X-) From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Sep 10 16:06:57 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 16:06:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: filk: You don't mess with Sethra Lavode Message-ID: <200309102306.h8AN6vI26802@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> KG said: > Mark A Mandel writes: > > > Even if she came from the rock of Dzur Mountain > > Don't take Sethra Lavode for granite. > > *Groan* > You should be ashamed of yourself. Oh, come on. You have to allow that he might have simply been suffering from a touch of malapropism at the time. Besides, you know you grinned. Perhaps groaned, too, but you grinned....;> Chris "Coffee justifies the existence of the word 'aroma'." Glen Duncan - _I, Lucifer_ From pulmon at comcast.net Wed Sep 10 19:39:17 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 22:39:17 -0400 Subject: filk: You don't mess with Sethra Lavode In-Reply-To: <200309102306.h8AN6vI26802@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <23F34C6E-E401-11D7-B7FA-0003938F1608@comcast.net> Better malapropism than malapriapism...but that would be another filksong On Wednesday, September 10, 2003, at 07:06 PM, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > KG said: >> Mark A Mandel writes: >> >>> Even if she came from the rock of Dzur Mountain >>> Don't take Sethra Lavode for granite. >> >> *Groan* >> You should be ashamed of yourself. > > Oh, come on. You have to allow that he might have simply > been suffering from a touch of malapropism at the time. > > Besides, you know you grinned. Perhaps groaned, too, but > you grinned....;> > > Chris > > "Coffee justifies the existence of the word 'aroma'." > Glen Duncan - _I, Lucifer_ > From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Sep 11 00:32:37 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:32:37 -0700 Subject: You don't mess with Sethra Lavode References: Message-ID: <029101c37836$e04b8a80$f700000a@steve> I am absolutely disgusted by how much I like that. From greyw01f at hotmail.com Thu Sep 11 05:22:30 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 12:22:30 +0000 Subject: You don't mess with Sethra Lavode Message-ID: like it enough to have some teckla singing a phrase of it as one of the protagonists walk by? Jon _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From warlord at dragon.com Thu Sep 11 07:24:28 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 10:24:28 -0400 Subject: filk: You don't mess with Sethra Lavode In-Reply-To: <20030910230533.GA1494@ofb.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Damien Sullivan [mailto:phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 7:06 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: filk: You don't mess with Sethra Lavode > > > On Wed, Sep 10, 2003 at 07:01:22PM -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > Mark A Mandel writes: > > > > > Even if she came from the rock of Dzur Mountain > > > Don't take Sethra Lavode for granite. > > > > *Groan* > > You should be ashamed of yourself. > > Hey, that's a ref to one of the Horta filks, isn't it? Possibly > the Roundworm > parody... oh wait, it'd be simpler to just be a ref to the Star > Trek episode. Is that what they mean by Horta-culture ? W "There's more than one way to start a good war." From mam at theworld.com Thu Sep 11 16:50:20 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:50:20 -0400 Subject: filk: You don't mess with Sethra Lavode In-Reply-To: <08FCB9FB.6DDE1BC9.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: #Mark A Mandel writes: # #> Even if she came from the rock of Dzur Mountain #> Don't take Sethra Lavode for granite. # #*Groan* #You should be ashamed of yourself. :-) Why, THANK YOU, sir! -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname http://world.std.com/~mam/filk.html Now on the Filker's Bardic Webring! From mam at theworld.com Thu Sep 11 16:50:58 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:50:58 -0400 Subject: filk: You don't mess with Sethra Lavode In-Reply-To: <20030910230533.GA1494@ofb.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Sep 2003, Damien Sullivan wrote: #On Wed, Sep 10, 2003 at 07:01:22PM -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: #> Mark A Mandel writes: #> #> > Even if she came from the rock of Dzur Mountain #> > Don't take Sethra Lavode for granite. #> #> *Groan* #> You should be ashamed of yourself. # #Hey, that's a ref to one of the Horta filks, isn't it? Possibly the Roundworm #parody... oh wait, it'd be simpler to just be a ref to the Star Trek episode. Not intentionally. The pun is a lot older than ST. -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname http://world.std.com/~mam/filk.html Now on the Filker's Bardic Webring! From mam at theworld.com Thu Sep 11 16:52:23 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:52:23 -0400 Subject: You don't mess with Sethra Lavode In-Reply-To: <029101c37836$e04b8a80$f700000a@steve> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Sep 2003, Steven Brust wrote: #I am absolutely disgusted by how much I like that. My lord, you honor this poor filker more than I can say. (Hmmmm.... but can I SING it?...) -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname http://world.std.com/~mam/filk.html Now on the Filker's Bardic Webring! From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Thu Sep 11 16:54:42 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 16:54:42 -0700 Subject: filk: You don't mess with Sethra Lavode In-Reply-To: References: <20030910230533.GA1494@ofb.net> Message-ID: <20030911235442.GA1158@ofb.net> On Thu, Sep 11, 2003 at 07:50:58PM -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote: > #> > Even if she came from the rock of Dzur Mountain > #> > Don't take Sethra Lavode for granite. > Not intentionally. The pun is a lot older than ST. Oh. It's a pun. I just now got that. Maybe because I was thinking of my memory of the Horta-filk-filk. -xx- Damien X-) From greyw01f at hotmail.com Mon Sep 15 10:40:44 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:40:44 +0000 Subject: volume again Message-ID: has there been any traffic in the list in the last week, or am I just not getting the emails for some reason? Jon _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From mneme at io.com Mon Sep 15 10:59:39 2003 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:59:39 -0500 Subject: Ambiguify In-Reply-To: <9F09A004-D2A8-11D7-9589-0003938F1608@comcast.net> References: <9F09A004-D2A8-11D7-9589-0003938F1608@comcast.net> Message-ID: <16229.65035.2855.467254@fnord.io.com> Kenneth Gorelick writes: >How is this pronounced? To rhyme with "liquefy" as a 4-syllable word, >or with a long "u" in a pentasyllable? Ideally, not at all; I far prefer "confuse", or "ambiguate". -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Sep 15 15:27:55 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 15 Sep 2003 17:27:55 -0500 Subject: volume again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Jon Carey" writes: > has there been any traffic in the list in the last week, or am I just > not getting the emails for some reason? Well, there's a 4-day gap in the messages in the archives, ( is the relevant chunk. Nothing was "down" here, so probably it's that people weren't submitting messages. In general, checking the archives and looking to see if the list responds to the "help" address dragaera-help at dragaera.info are a couple of good quick ways to do some minimal status checking. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera mailing lists: From bio_phy at hotmail.com Mon Sep 15 15:36:33 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 17:36:33 -0500 Subject: New suggestion to portray Vlad Message-ID: While watching Johnny Depp and Antonio Banderas do their thing in _Once Upon A Time In Mexico_ this weekend, I happened to think a completely off-the-wall thought. I know who'd be a perfect Vlad. John Cusack. If you've ever seen _Grosse Point Blank_, you'll know that he can carry a part that's equal parts dark and light, caustic and kind, normal and cold blooded as hell. I mean, just look at those eyes - he'd be perfect. I'm convinced he'd nail the "Shutup, Loiosh" line perfectly. Just a thought to further torment myself. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ _________________________________________________________________ Get 10MB of e-mail storage! Sign up for Hotmail Extra Storage. http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Mon Sep 15 16:44:47 2003 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:44:47 -0700 Subject: query? Message-ID: This query is directed to Mr Brust himself. Is there any particular that this list is missing in discussing your various volumes? (Other than . . . . [various readers add here] ) James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN _________________________________________________________________ Get 10MB of e-mail storage! Sign up for Hotmail Extra Storage. http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es From toubib21 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 15 20:54:50 2003 From: toubib21 at yahoo.com (Toubib) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 20:54:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Morrolan's Name Message-ID: <20030916035450.9352.qmail@web40107.mail.yahoo.com> I was over at the crack and shards website reading about Morrolan's name, and something struck me. Miska says that Morrolan is in the language of the Silatan in POTD(paperback) page 12. In Issola(paperback)page 105 Lady Teldra says that 'Morrolan' is in the ancient tongue of the Dragon. So would this mean that the Silatans are members of the House of the Dragon. And if so, why would Easterners have another name for them just one House of the Empire? Doc http://www.toubib.us/dragaera/main.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From greyw01f at hotmail.com Tue Sep 16 05:36:53 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:36:53 +0000 Subject: Morrolan's Name Message-ID: It's possible the Easterners have (had) specific names for each Dragaeran house that have just become outmoded. I would imagine they date from the the time before the Empire existed, and have become outmoded specifically because the Empire was created. Jon _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From warlord at dragon.com Tue Sep 16 07:29:13 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 10:29:13 -0400 Subject: Ambiguify In-Reply-To: <16229.65035.2855.467254@fnord.io.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Kronengold [mailto:mneme at io.com] > Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 2:00 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Ambiguify > > > Kenneth Gorelick writes: > >How is this pronounced? To rhyme with "liquefy" as a 4-syllable word, > >or with a long "u" in a pentasyllable? > > Ideally, not at all; I far prefer "confuse", or "ambiguate". Let me clarify: "Ambiguify" is pronounced "Brust" W From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Sep 16 11:13:44 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:13:44 -0500 Subject: Ambiguify In-Reply-To: References: <16229.65035.2855.467254@fnord.io.com> Message-ID: <20030916181344.GD1504@infodancer.org> On Tue, Sep 16, 2003 at 10:29:13AM -0400, Warlord wrote: > > Ideally, not at all; I far prefer "confuse", or "ambiguate". > Let me clarify: > "Ambiguify" is pronounced "Brust" That would be "ambiguifier". It's clear that Brust is antidisambiguification. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From dgf at dd-b.net Wed Sep 17 15:17:02 2003 From: dgf at dd-b.net (dgf at dd-b.net) Date: 17 Sep 2003 22:17:02 -0000 Subject: Dragaera subscriber list Message-ID: <20030917221702.12199.qmail@dd-b.net> acwest-dragaera (at) craigwest.net (email) "A. 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Nonymous" yukio_toko (at) yahoo.com (email) yukiotoko imp-thing zaphod (at) charter.net (email) "Greg Schwartz" zarkon (at) illrepute.org (email) John Klein From greyw01f at hotmail.com Sat Sep 20 18:13:42 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:13:42 +0000 Subject: Gods Message-ID: So, there I was, thinking about religion, cause I'm a philosophy major and I'm in a course that's analyzing the nature of evil..and I think, well, what about the Gods in Dragaera, cause I'm really really bored, and I can't read any Brust books because I'm so damned busy reading Govier, Neiman and Arendt. Basically, I was reading about Jesus (being the answer to the question that the story of Job poses us) and I was thinking, hey wait, if Dragaera is connected in some way to TRIH, well, could it be that the gods are just angels of a higher order than the Dragaerans? And so I started thinking, purely whimsically, that each god was a character >from TRIH. Now, I'm fairly sure that this isn't the case at all--first and foremost reason beign the Jesus simply doesn't appear (or hasn't YET *jarring chord*) in the Dragaeran novels. Therefore, the angels that were concerned with the mythology of earth can't be concerned with the history of Dragaera. But then, I think, well, that's not necessarily true. So, just because I'm bored, I'm trying to correlate the Gods, and what we know of their personalities, to angels we meet in TRIH. I don't yet have LOCB but I do have POTD so I will be drawing pretty much all of my information from there. And maybe _Taltos_ For Verra, the closest thing I can come to is Lilith. Keep in mind that the effects of Cacoastrum can explain the change in form that is evident in the description of the various gods. Also keep in mind that the arguments against these correlations are legion, and that this is sheerly for amusement. Proceeding, then. If Verra is Lilith (and I can't find any reason to change their names either) then Barlen must be Lucifer, and not Satan, because Satan must be Trout, being the undisputed wisest of the Fallen. But then, Barlen is described as "the most powerful of all the gods" and also fits the bill as Verra's ex lover, and this entire email is too complicated. The Dragaeran gods are not angels from TRIH, or, if they are, they're not the ones that TRIH is concerned with. We need more traffic on the list anyway. I miss the 50 posts a day. Jon _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Sat Sep 20 21:41:33 2003 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 21:41:33 -0700 Subject: Jon Carey complained about lack of list volume. Message-ID: <200309202141.AA221053236@amish2000.com> So I thought I'd do my part. 1) I bought another copy of _The Phoenix Guards_ today because some FIEND ran off with my other copy. All of you should buy more copies, too. 2) Aerich is so totally a samurai. Helpfully, MJ ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ http://erythros.livejournal.com/ ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~ From toubib21 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 20 20:00:39 2003 From: toubib21 at yahoo.com (Toubib) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 20:00:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jon Carey complained about lack of list volume. In-Reply-To: <200309202141.AA221053236@amish2000.com> Message-ID: <20030921030039.88903.qmail@web40101.mail.yahoo.com> --- M J wrote: > So I thought I'd do my part. > > 1) I bought another copy of _The Phoenix Guards_ > today > because some FIEND ran off with my other copy. All > of you > should buy more copies, too. I just re-read Pheonix Guards so that I could get re-acquainted with the characters after reading POTD. And also so I could create a web page of bios so I don't have to keep re-reading the books to remember what characters didn't previously. If anyone wants to take a look it's at http://www.toubib.us/dragaera/main.html. It's definatly a work in progress, but is my contribution to the community. Doc __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Sun Sep 21 06:42:58 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:42:58 +0000 Subject: Gods Message-ID: Yours idea is quite interesting and some weeks ago I tried to something similar although easier: fit each angel with its corresponding dragaeran house. >From: "Jon Carey" >To: Dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Gods >Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:13:42 +0000 > >So, there I was, thinking about religion, cause I'm a philosophy major and >I'm in a course that's analyzing the nature of evil..and I think, well, >what about the Gods in Dragaera, cause I'm really really bored, and I can't >read any Brust books because I'm so damned busy reading Govier, Neiman and >Arendt. > >Basically, I was reading about Jesus (being the answer to the question that >the story of Job poses us) >and I was thinking, hey wait, if Dragaera is connected in some way to TRIH, >well, could it be that the gods are just angels of a higher order than the >Dragaerans? > >And so I started thinking, purely whimsically, that each god was a >character from TRIH. Now, I'm fairly sure that this isn't the case at >all--first and foremost reason beign the Jesus simply doesn't appear (or >hasn't YET *jarring chord*) in the Dragaeran novels. Therefore, the angels >that were concerned with the mythology of earth can't be concerned with the >history of Dragaera. But then, I think, well, that's not necessarily true. > >So, just because I'm bored, I'm trying to correlate the Gods, and what we >know of their personalities, to angels we meet in TRIH. > >I don't yet have LOCB but I do have POTD so I will be drawing pretty much >all of my information from there. And maybe _Taltos_ > >For Verra, the closest thing I can come to is Lilith. Keep in mind that >the effects of Cacoastrum can explain the change in form that is evident in >the description of the various gods. Also keep in mind that the arguments >against these correlations are legion, and that this is sheerly for >amusement. >Proceeding, then. If Verra is Lilith (and I can't find any reason to >change their names either) then Barlen must be Lucifer, and not Satan, >because Satan must be Trout, being the undisputed wisest of the Fallen. But >then, Barlen is described as "the most powerful of all the gods" and also >fits the bill as Verra's ex lover, and this entire email is too >complicated. > >The Dragaeran gods are not angels from TRIH, or, if they are, they're not >the ones that TRIH is concerned with. > >We need more traffic on the list anyway. I miss the 50 posts a day. > >Jon > >_________________________________________________________________ >STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > _________________________________________________________________ Dale vida a tu correo. Con MSN 8 podr?s incluir fotos y textos increibles. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=es-es&XAPID=517&DI=1055 From davids at kithrup.com Sun Sep 21 11:05:51 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 11:05:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jon Carey complained about lack of list volume. In-Reply-To: <20030921030039.88903.qmail@web40101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Sep 2003, Toubib wrote: > >I just re-read Pheonix Guards so that I could get ObSP: "Phoenix" Just remember that it's "Pho-enix" and not "Phe-onix" > http://www.toubib.us/dragaera/main.html. The page for Adron says that he bears the weapons "Great Weapon Pathfinder, a dull, black shortsword" "Kieron's great sword". So I think you mixed up Aliera's info with Adron's. You also need to spellcheck the page. "Dount"? "Verre"? "sorcory"? "Diasator"? The other pages have lots of other spelling errors as well, I see. From toubib21 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 21 11:59:11 2003 From: toubib21 at yahoo.com (Toubib) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 11:59:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jon Carey complained about lack of list volume. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030921185911.49226.qmail@web40110.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Silberstein wrote: > Just remember that it's "Pho-enix" and not > "Phe-onix" > > > > http://www.toubib.us/dragaera/main.html. > > The page for Adron says that he bears the weapons > "Great Weapon > Pathfinder, a dull, black shortsword" "Kieron's > great sword". > So I think you mixed up Aliera's info with Adron's. > > You also need to spellcheck the page. "Dount"? > "Verre"? "sorcory"? > "Diasator"? > > The other pages have lots of other spelling errors > as well, I see. Thanks for letting me know, I believe I've gotten all of the mistakes taken care of. Doc __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Sun Sep 21 14:26:41 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:26:41 -0400 Subject: Gods In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030921212641.GA9499@ofb.net> On Sun, Sep 21, 2003 at 01:13:42AM +0000, Jon Carey wrote: > and I was thinking, hey wait, if Dragaera is connected in some way to TRIH, > well, could it be that the gods are just angels of a higher order than the > Dragaerans? Not when we know gods are made out of Jenoine and Dragerans and god knows what. If there's a connection, I think it's that the Jenoine would be angels. Or simply that universe's analogue of angels. As I've argued before. -xx- Damien X-) From bmarti at shaw.ca Sun Sep 21 17:48:10 2003 From: bmarti at shaw.ca (Bill Martin) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:48:10 -0700 Subject: Saying Hey Message-ID: <6.0.0.14.0.20030921174543.01b5f018@shawmail> Hi all, I joined the list the other day so I thought I'd drop in and say hey. I just recently reread the Phoenix Guards, and having rediscovered how much I absolutely love the book, went on a Brust Book Buying Binge. It took me a while to find Phoenix, but I managed to track it down and am eagerly awaiting its arrival in the mail. And Doc, I like the idea of the web page, but when I attempted to follow the link it didn't work. Cheers all, Bill ************************************************** This post brought to you by: HTWAVCBH Productions: "If you didn't get a thrill, then it isn't from Bill" ************************************************** From eshivak at netzero.net Mon Sep 22 03:54:01 2003 From: eshivak at netzero.net (Eric Shivak) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 06:54:01 -0400 Subject: Jon Carey complained about lack of list volume. In-Reply-To: <20030921185911.49226.qmail@web40110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Doc, I love the site! Well laid out and informative... However, I suggest you put up a spoiler warning since a lot of the information you have listed are things that a beginning reader of the series might not want to know! Thanks, Eric Shivak SDD Computer Support Services eshivak at sddcomputersupport.com www.sddcomputersupport.com 631-269-5295 -----Original Message----- From: Toubib [mailto:toubib21 at yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 2:59 PM To: David Silberstein; Dragaera List Subject: Re: Jon Carey complained about lack of list volume. --- David Silberstein wrote: > Just remember that it's "Pho-enix" and not > "Phe-onix" > > > > http://www.toubib.us/dragaera/main.html. > > The page for Adron says that he bears the weapons > "Great Weapon > Pathfinder, a dull, black shortsword" "Kieron's > great sword". > So I think you mixed up Aliera's info with Adron's. > > You also need to spellcheck the page. "Dount"? > "Verre"? "sorcory"? > "Diasator"? > > The other pages have lots of other spelling errors > as well, I see. Thanks for letting me know, I believe I've gotten all of the mistakes taken care of. Doc __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From warlord at dragon.com Mon Sep 22 07:22:06 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:22:06 -0400 Subject: Jon Carey complained about lack of list volume. In-Reply-To: <200309202141.AA221053236@amish2000.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: M J [mailto:saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com] > > So I thought I'd do my part. > > 1) I bought another copy of _The Phoenix Guards_ today > because some FIEND ran off with my other copy. All of you > should buy more copies, too. I made a marvelous find: A used book store where in the back there are rare books. I found two first edition hardbacks: The Phoenix Guards and Dragon. Made my weekend. 8^) > > 2) Aerich is so totally a samurai. Like, totally! > > Helpfully, > MJ > Equally helpfully, W From greyw01f at hotmail.com Wed Sep 24 22:43:14 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 05:43:14 +0000 Subject: _SL_ cover Message-ID: That had better not be the cover for _Sethra Lavode_ and if it is, that had BETTER DAMN WELL NOT BE SETHRA LAVODE! 1) Okay, she has black, straight hair, if rather bland. mundane hair--not the pin-needle straight hair you might associate with a vampire. 2) hmm what's this, her skin seems...seems...vivacious. 3) Is her shirt white? Oh, the Dragaeranity! 4) What the fuck is that she's got in her hand? Is that Iceflame with delusions of grandeur? 5) What a noble, intimidating pose they've got her in. Is this Morrolan/Fabio's wife? Glorious Mountain should fire whoever does their cover art. Jon Carey _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Sep 24 22:49:49 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:49:49 -0500 Subject: _SL_ cover In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030925054949.GJ12050@infodancer.org> On Thu, Sep 25, 2003 at 05:43:14AM +0000, Jon Carey wrote: > That had better not be the cover for _Sethra Lavode_ and if it is, that had > BETTER DAMN WELL NOT BE SETHRA LAVODE! Oh god. Oh please, oh god, no, please, no. That cover art is AWFUL. Can we maybe get them to do a version without the cover jacket? -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Sep 24 22:50:49 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:50:49 -0500 Subject: _SL_ cover In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030925055049.GK12050@infodancer.org> On Thu, Sep 25, 2003 at 05:43:14AM +0000, Jon Carey wrote: > That had better not be the cover for _Sethra Lavode_ and if it is, that had > BETTER DAMN WELL NOT BE SETHRA LAVODE! For the not-quite-as-quick-with-a-link: http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0312855818.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Sep 24 22:53:51 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: _SL_ cover In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You're right about Sethra looking a bit plump - so much so that the phoenix or whatever it's meant to be is about to make a meal of her. I wonder if the book's cover is the purple of the title on the dustjacket, as was the case with _TLoCB_. I suspect I'll be washing my hands with isopropyl alcohol again... - Philip On Thu, 25 Sep 2003, Jon Carey wrote: > > > That had better not be the cover for _Sethra Lavode_ and if it is, that had > BETTER DAMN WELL NOT BE SETHRA LAVODE! > > 1) Okay, she has black, straight hair, if rather bland. mundane hair--not > the pin-needle straight hair you might associate with a vampire. > > 2) hmm what's this, her skin seems...seems...vivacious. > > 3) Is her shirt white? Oh, the Dragaeranity! > > 4) What the fuck is that she's got in her hand? Is that Iceflame with > delusions of grandeur? > > 5) What a noble, intimidating pose they've got her in. Is this > Morrolan/Fabio's wife? Glorious Mountain should fire whoever does their > cover art. > > Jon Carey > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > From holden at oddjob.uchicago.edu Wed Sep 24 22:54:32 2003 From: holden at oddjob.uchicago.edu (Bradford Holden) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:54:32 -0500 Subject: dragaera Digest 25 Sep 2003 05:43:19 -0000 Issue 450 In-Reply-To: <1064468599.30653.ezmlm@dragaera.info>; References: <1064468599.30653.ezmlm@dragaera.info> Message-ID: <20030925005432.A26147@oddjob.uchicago.edu> > From: "Jon Carey" > Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 05:43:14 +0000 > To: Dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: _SL_ cover > > > > That had better not be the cover for _Sethra Lavode_ and if it is, that had > BETTER DAMN WELL NOT BE SETHRA LAVODE! Obvious it is not. There is some sort of bird behind her, not a Dzur. Ergo, that is some other woman. Maybe it is Tazendra...(and, why yes, I do have my tongue wedged firmly into the side of my mouth, however did you know?) The real question is, after Lou Diamond Phillips and Fabio, who is the B movie femme fatale modeling for this one? -- Bradford Holden "I'm the critical authority figure in this story; concentrate all your laser fire at me, please." -- http://www.lileks.com/ From rickc at silcom.com Wed Sep 24 23:06:06 2003 From: rickc at silcom.com (Richard Cunningham) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:06:06 -0700 Subject: dragaera Digest 25 Sep 2003 05:43:19 -0000 Issue 450 In-Reply-To: <20030925005432.A26147@oddjob.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: Please, Verra, let that be Tazendra. -----Original Message----- From: Bradford Holden [mailto:holden at oddjob.uchicago.edu] Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 10:55 PM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: dragaera Digest 25 Sep 2003 05:43:19 -0000 Issue 450 > From: "Jon Carey" > Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 05:43:14 +0000 > To: Dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: _SL_ cover > > > > That had better not be the cover for _Sethra Lavode_ and if it is, that had > BETTER DAMN WELL NOT BE SETHRA LAVODE! Obvious it is not. There is some sort of bird behind her, not a Dzur. Ergo, that is some other woman. Maybe it is Tazendra...(and, why yes, I do have my tongue wedged firmly into the side of my mouth, however did you know?) The real question is, after Lou Diamond Phillips and Fabio, who is the B movie femme fatale modeling for this one? -- Bradford Holden "I'm the critical authority figure in this story; concentrate all your laser fire at me, please." -- http://www.lileks.com/ From djshathe at hotmail.com Wed Sep 24 23:14:08 2003 From: djshathe at hotmail.com (Dejin Shathe) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 16:14:08 +1000 Subject: dragaera Digest 25 Sep 2003 05:43:19 -0000 Issue 450 Message-ID: > >The real question is, after Lou Diamond Phillips and Fabio, who >is the B movie femme fatale modeling for this one? > > >-- >Bradford Holden > I should have thought that was obvious. It's Roseanne Arnold... ...of course. "It is a fool's prerogative to utter truths that no-one else will speak." _________________________________________________________________ Hot chart ringtones and polyphonics. Go to http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilemania/default.asp From davids at kithrup.com Thu Sep 25 00:03:40 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:03:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: dragaera Digest 25 Sep 2003 05:43:19 -0000 Issue 450 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Sep 2003, Richard Cunningham wrote: >Please, Verra, let that be Tazendra. > I wonder if it might in fact possibly be Orlaan? From rickc at silcom.com Thu Sep 25 00:14:50 2003 From: rickc at silcom.com (Richard Cunningham) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:14:50 -0700 Subject: dragaera Digest 25 Sep 2003 05:43:19 -0000 Issue 450 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Or Ibronka for that matter. -----Original Message----- From: David Silberstein [mailto:davids at kithrup.com] Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 12:04 AM To: Dragaera List Subject: RE: dragaera Digest 25 Sep 2003 05:43:19 -0000 Issue 450 On Wed, 24 Sep 2003, Richard Cunningham wrote: >Please, Verra, let that be Tazendra. > I wonder if it might in fact possibly be Orlaan? From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Thu Sep 25 00:11:19 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 00:11:19 -0700 Subject: _SL_ cover In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oops, forgot to send this to the list. Sorry, Jon. Orca spoiler ho! On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 05:43:14 +0000, you wrote: > > >That had better not be the cover for _Sethra Lavode_ and if it is, that had >BETTER DAMN WELL NOT BE SETHRA LAVODE! > >1) Okay, she has black, straight hair, if rather bland. mundane hair--not >the pin-needle straight hair you might associate with a vampire. > >2) hmm what's this, her skin seems...seems...vivacious. > >3) Is her shirt white? Oh, the Dragaeranity! > >4) What the fuck is that she's got in her hand? Is that Iceflame with >delusions of grandeur? > >5) What a noble, intimidating pose they've got her in. Is this >Morrolan/Fabio's wife? Glorious Mountain should fire whoever does their >cover art. > >Jon Carey Looks more like Kiera. And yeah, that ain't Iceflame That can't be Sethra, because Sethra wears black, right? That's Kiera. Oh, the link. http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0312855818.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From scs at di.org Thu Sep 25 06:54:44 2003 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:54:44 -0400 Subject: _SL_ cover In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030925135444.GA6962@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Thu, Sep 25, 2003 at 05:43:14AM +0000, Jon Carey wrote: > That had better not be the cover for _Sethra Lavode_ and if it is, that had > BETTER DAMN WELL NOT BE SETHRA LAVODE! It's clearly not. More likely it's Katie Holmes. From books at bofh.com Thu Sep 25 07:16:24 2003 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 07:16:24 -0700 Subject: _SL_ cover In-Reply-To: <20030925135444.GA6962@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <20030925135444.GA6962@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <20030925141624.GA16436@bofh.com> On Thu, Sep 25, 2003 at 09:54:44AM -0400, Steve Simmons wrote: > On Thu, Sep 25, 2003 at 05:43:14AM +0000, Jon Carey wrote: > > > That had better not be the cover for _Sethra Lavode_ and if it is, that had > > BETTER DAMN WELL NOT BE SETHRA LAVODE! > > It's clearly not. More likely it's Katie Holmes. I figured it must be Ibronka. Of course why you would put Ibronka right under big letters that say "Sethra Lavode" is curious. I mean, it can't be Sethra...she's got a full on smile for the love of Verra! -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From greyw01f at hotmail.com Thu Sep 25 08:04:36 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:04:36 +0000 Subject: _SL_ cover Message-ID: ORCA SPOILER If that's kiera, then why is she wielding such a massive, brutal looking sword? What thief doesn't use daggers? And hasn't kiera "never killed before"? I can only hope that it's Tazendra, or, knowing the artist's tendency for over-dramatizing figures, and, depending on how far into the Vladiad the book goes (if at all), it could be Norathar. That would explain why she's got one foot placed oh-so-casually on the Phoenix throne. Again, it could be one of the Jenoine. Or maybe even Verra. Hey, why not make it Cawti? *she's* relevant to the storyline....Ooo Zerika perhaps? Jon _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From davids at kithrup.com Thu Sep 25 11:30:17 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 11:30:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: _SL_ cover In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Sep 2003, Jon Carey wrote: >book goes (if at all), it could be Norathar. That would explain why she's >got one foot placed oh-so-casually on the Phoenix throne. > Speaking of Imperial ambitions (which Norathar doesn't really have), it might be Kana's cousin Habil. From Gaertk at aol.com Thu Sep 25 12:14:16 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:14:16 -0400 Subject: _SL_ cover Message-ID: <27AD9962.2CD7C4A4.00048EA6@aol.com> "Jon Carey" writes: http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0312855818.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg > That had better not be the cover for _Sethra Lavode_ and if > it is, that had BETTER DAMN WELL NOT BE SETHRA LAVODE! I was going to comment on this a while ago when I saw the small BW scan in Tor's catalog. And the cover blurbs given there were... interesting. The expected comments about Sethra, then stuff about an ambitious Dragonlord trying to recreate the Empire by force, "unaware of Zerika's existence"! > 1) ?Okay, she has black, straight hair, if rather bland. > mundane hair--not the pin-needle straight hair you might > associate with a vampire. > > 2) hmm what's this, her skin seems...seems...vivacious. She looks awfully young too. > 3) Is her shirt white? ?Oh, the Dragaeranity! > > 4) What the fuck is that she's got in her hand? ?Is that > Iceflame with delusions of grandeur? And she's leaning on it, with the point touching the ground. Aerich is going to have fits. > 5) What a noble, intimidating pose they've got her in. ?Is > this Morrolan/Fabio's wife? ?Glorious Mountain should fire > whoever does their cover art. Yeah, well, Morrolan's pose for LOCB was completely wrong too. I don't think he sat down once during that book (and he certainly doesn't have a throne). And I'd love to see him put that 8 foot sword in sheath worn on his hip. --KG From TimN at rcn.com Thu Sep 25 15:31:26 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 18:31:26 -0400 Subject: _SL_ cover References: Message-ID: <00ad01c383b4$c2dfbaa0$d916fea9@ananda> Recycling spoiler space below: ----- Original Message ----- From: Jon Carey To: Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 11:04 AM Subject: Re: _SL_ cover > > > ORCA SPOILER > > > > > > > > > > > Indeed. Kiera goes about unarmed. Remember the scene at the end of Orca? We're told she doesn't carry a sword or dagger. I'm hoping this is a rendering of the unnamed companion that Steve spent new year's in a hottub with, and not the all black wearing, dagger using, Enchantress. From jedijane at yahoo.com Thu Sep 25 18:54:37 2003 From: jedijane at yahoo.com (Michelle Goepp) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 18:54:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: _SL_ cover In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030926015437.39854.qmail@web20007.mail.yahoo.com> --- lazarus wrote: > Oops, forgot to send this to the list. Sorry, Jon. > > Orca spoiler ho! > > > On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 05:43:14 +0000, Jon wrote: > > > > > > >That had better not be the cover for _Sethra > Lavode_ and if it is, that had > >BETTER DAMN WELL NOT BE SETHRA LAVODE! > > > >1) Okay, she has black, straight hair, if rather > bland. mundane hair--not > >the pin-needle straight hair you might associate > with a vampire. > > > >2) hmm what's this, her skin > seems...seems...vivacious. > > > >3) Is her shirt white? Oh, the Dragaeranity! > > > >4) What the is that she's got in her hand? Is > that Iceflame with > >delusions of grandeur? > > > >5) What a noble, intimidating pose they've got her > in. Is this > >Morrolan/Fabio's wife? Glorious Mountain should > fire whoever does their > >cover art. > > > >Jon Carey > Lazarus wrote: > Looks more like Kiera. And yeah, that ain't > Iceflame That can't be > Sethra, because Sethra wears black, right? > > That's Kiera. > > Oh, the link. > > http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0312855818.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg > lazarus > We-e-e-ell...she *is* a shapeshifter, and has been mistaken for living (fairly often, if we're to believe that she had been undead for some hundreds of years before the Lavode Scandal broke and her vital status was discovered)...and she has been distributing some big @ss swords...and has been known (on occasion) to wear colors other than black. If Sethra *wanted* to look like the woman on the cover, she could. It's finding the motivation that's baffling me at the moment. ===== Michelle "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From genji_77 at hotmail.com Fri Sep 26 07:50:21 2003 From: genji_77 at hotmail.com (Genji) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 07:50:21 -0700 Subject: _SL_ cover References: Message-ID: That cover is sick, wrong, and evil. It makes the Fabio Morolan cover look amazing by comparison. *shakes head* ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Carey" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 10:43 PM Subject: _SL_ cover > > > That had better not be the cover for _Sethra Lavode_ and if it is, that had > BETTER DAMN WELL NOT BE SETHRA LAVODE! > > 1) Okay, she has black, straight hair, if rather bland. mundane hair--not > the pin-needle straight hair you might associate with a vampire. > > 2) hmm what's this, her skin seems...seems...vivacious. > > 3) Is her shirt white? Oh, the Dragaeranity! > > 4) What the fuck is that she's got in her hand? Is that Iceflame with > delusions of grandeur? > > 5) What a noble, intimidating pose they've got her in. Is this > Morrolan/Fabio's wife? Glorious Mountain should fire whoever does their > cover art. > > Jon Carey > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > From genji_77 at hotmail.com Fri Sep 26 08:20:17 2003 From: genji_77 at hotmail.com (Genji) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 08:20:17 -0700 Subject: dragaera Digest 25 Sep 2003 05:43:19 -0000 Issue 450 References: <1064468599.30653.ezmlm@dragaera.info> <20030925005432.A26147@oddjob.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bradford Holden" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 10:54 PM Subject: Re: dragaera Digest 25 Sep 2003 05:43:19 -0000 Issue 450 > > Obvious it is not. There is some sort of bird behind her, not a Dzur. > Ergo, that is some other woman. Upon closer inspection of the LoCB cover, I think I am able to explain the Phoenix in the picture. The Paths of the Dead had a very obvious phoenix, but not so obvious (because it was largely covered by the title) is the painting of a phoenix behind Fabio/Morolan on the LoCB cover. So it looks like they are putting the bird on each of the covers for continuity. Too bad they couldn't actually like read the books and have appropriateness be the factor they use for continuity. From mam at theworld.com Sun Sep 28 18:10:58 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 21:10:58 -0400 Subject: Jon Carey complained about lack of list volume. In-Reply-To: <20030921030039.88903.qmail@web40101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Sep 2003, Toubib wrote: #I just re-read Pheonix Guards so that I could get #re-acquainted with the characters after reading POTD. #And also so I could create a web page of bios so I #don't have to keep re-reading the books to remember #what characters didn't previously. If anyone wants to #take a look it's at #http://www.toubib.us/dragaera/main.html. It's #definatly a work in progress, but is my contribution #to the community. #Doc Hey, hey, HEY! I've only had a very quick chance to glance at it, but I am glad you've done this. Would you like it listed on Cracks and Shards? I will note, though, that while grey on black is classy and very Jhereg, it's hard on the eyes, especially for us who've passed our half-century. Would you consider changing the color scheme to something more readable, and maybe using grey and black in another way? F'rex, you could use heavy grey lines for the table and black for the page background outside the table. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mam at theworld.com Sun Sep 28 18:15:32 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 21:15:32 -0400 Subject: domain hosting? Message-ID: I'm fed up with my ISP, theworld.com, and I'm ready to get my own cracksandshards.com domain, as many people have suggested. I am open to suggestions for good brokers or whatever the word is for the companies you can go to for this, and also warnings for who to stay away from. -- Mark A. Mandel From dd-b at dd-b.net Sun Sep 28 18:51:52 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 28 Sep 2003 20:51:52 -0500 Subject: domain hosting? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mark A Mandel writes: > I'm fed up with my ISP, theworld.com, and I'm ready to get my own > cracksandshards.com domain, as many people have suggested. I am open to > suggestions for good brokers or whatever the word is for the companies > you can go to for this, and also warnings for who to stay away from. Hosting and domain registry are separate activities; although many hosting companies will also register domains for you. I've had good luck (I use them for unclehugos.com and firearmsinstructors.biz) with dreamhost.com. Their basic $10/month package probably covers everything you need. And they'll throw in one domain registration for free. The $10/month account covers up to 20GB per month of pages served by the web sight. The best thing I can say about Dreamhost is that the times I've had to email tech support, I have *always* gotten a response within the promised time (usually in less than 1/2 the promised time), and it has *always* either solved the problem, or asked for additional information that turned out to be relevant to solving the problem. No bad stories; most of the stuff I host I'm hosting myself on the DSL line. Which is moving towards being over-committed these days. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera mailing lists: From toubib21 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 28 19:05:26 2003 From: toubib21 at yahoo.com (Toubib) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 19:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jon Carey complained about lack of list volume. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030929020526.3241.qmail@web40101.mail.yahoo.com> > Hey, hey, HEY! > > Would you like it listed on Cracks and > Shards? ---snip--- > I will note, though, that while grey on black is > classy and very Jhereg, > it's hard on the eyes, especially for us who've > passed our half-century. > Would you consider changing the color scheme to > something more readable, ---snip--- Mr Mandel, I would be greatly honored to have a link to my site on yours. Your's has been one of my favorite for sometime now. And if you don't mind when I get a links section up it would be my pleasure to place a link to you sight as well. I've made some updates to my site structure. The new address is www.toubib.us/dragaera I'll work on the readablity of some of the pages. I may try to reverse the colors and see how that works. I really want to keep with the theme that the color are the colors of that person's House. Also another Crack for your sight, since I didn't see it the last time I was there. In Jhereg[paperback p.154] when Vlad goes to Morrolan's tower he says there is only one window, but in Dragon[paperback p.98] he says there are more then 6 but less then 17. Doc __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From nthuleen at students.wisc.edu Sun Sep 28 19:48:52 2003 From: nthuleen at students.wisc.edu (Nancy Thuleen) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 21:48:52 -0500 Subject: domain hosting? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 21:15 -0400 28.9.2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > I'm fed up with my ISP, theworld.com, and I'm ready to get my own > cracksandshards.com domain, as many people have suggested. I am open to > suggestions for good brokers or whatever the word is for the companies > you can go to for this, and also warnings for who to stay away from. Having had one *horrible* domain-name experience (Featureprice), I feel I can offer at least one word of advice: if there's any doubt in your mind about a potential host, make sure to register the domain name with someone OTHER than the web hosting company. Featureprice did both for me, but when they went under, it was extremely difficult to get my domain name back and transferred to a new provider. That said, for the past 8 months I've been with TotalChoiceHosting.com, which sounds like a cheesy name, but they've been absolutely rock-solid and fantastic for me: no downtime that I've seen, and very fast, and good package plans. (They even have a nice web board where customers can help each other out with html and scripting advice, not to mention a 24-hour support presence.) I'm registered through GoDaddy.com for the domain name; they've also been great so far, but that's a lot harder to mess up. :) Whatever you do, stay away from Featureprice and its associate ixwebhosting! -Nancy. From dacileva at hotmail.com Sun Sep 28 19:52:59 2003 From: dacileva at hotmail.com (Nik Landauer) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 22:52:59 -0400 Subject: Tower Windows (was Re: Jon Carey complained about lack of list volume.) Message-ID: Toubib wrote: > >Also another Crack for your sight, since I didn't see >it the last time I was there. In Jhereg[paperback >p.154] when Vlad goes to Morrolan's tower he says >there is only one window, but in Dragon[paperback >p.98] he says there are more then 6 but less then 17. To lend more credence to the Dragon reading, and a refutation of the Jhereg reference, in Phoenix, Vlad says that Morrolan has a room in a tower "with many windows in it" [paperback p.110], and asks permission to use it. Once he's up there, Vlad-as-narrator describes the room as "filled with windows" [ibid., p.111]. HTH. -- Nik ( Shori / Dacileva ) "Tolkien often takes us to the edge of the abyss, then points out a nice tea shop half way down" - Michael Moorcock, possibly apocryphal _________________________________________________________________ Help protect your PC. Get a FREE computer virus scan online from McAfee. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From matthew at infodancer.org Sun Sep 28 20:12:23 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 22:12:23 -0500 Subject: domain hosting? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030929031223.GA31332@infodancer.org> On Sun, Sep 28, 2003 at 08:51:52PM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Mark A Mandel writes: > > I'm fed up with my ISP, theworld.com, and I'm ready to get my own > > cracksandshards.com domain, as many people have suggested. I am open to > > suggestions for good brokers or whatever the word is for the companies > > you can go to for this, and also warnings for who to stay away from. > Hosting and domain registry are separate activities; although many > hosting companies will also register domains for you. > No bad stories; most of the stuff I host I'm hosting myself on the DSL > line. Which is moving towards being over-committed these days. I also do my own hosting. I can, however, recommend DomainDiscover for domain names without reservations. They're competent, they don't play legal games with the legal owners of the domain names, they don't nag you constantly with spam. However, they aren't the cheapest out there. An earlier poster recommended against doing your domains through your web hosting company. I can't agree more, at least not unless you are paying out the nose for a really good hosting company where you are a significant client. Get your domains yourself and point them where the hosting company says to. That way, if you want to move, you can point them where the new hosting company says without being held hostage by the old one. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From dd-b at dd-b.net Sun Sep 28 20:41:00 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 28 Sep 2003 22:41:00 -0500 Subject: domain hosting? In-Reply-To: <20030929031223.GA31332@infodancer.org> References: <20030929031223.GA31332@infodancer.org> Message-ID: Matthew Hunter writes: > On Sun, Sep 28, 2003 at 08:51:52PM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > Mark A Mandel writes: > > > I'm fed up with my ISP, theworld.com, and I'm ready to get my own > > > cracksandshards.com domain, as many people have suggested. I am open to > > > suggestions for good brokers or whatever the word is for the companies > > > you can go to for this, and also warnings for who to stay away from. > > Hosting and domain registry are separate activities; although many > > hosting companies will also register domains for you. > > No bad stories; most of the stuff I host I'm hosting myself on the DSL > > line. Which is moving towards being over-committed these days. > > I also do my own hosting. I can, however, recommend > DomainDiscover for domain names without reservations. They're > competent, they don't play legal games with the legal owners of > the domain names, they don't nag you constantly with spam. > However, they aren't the cheapest out there. gandi.net. 12 Euros a year for com/net/org, and I think they do some others now. No hand-holding, but again good email tech support. They aren't *quite* the cheapest out there. > An earlier poster recommended against doing your domains through > your web hosting company. I can't agree more, at least not > unless you are paying out the nose for a really good hosting > company where you are a significant client. Get your domains > yourself and point them where the hosting company says to. That > way, if you want to move, you can point them where the new > hosting company says without being held hostage by the old one. Dreamhost bundles one domain registration with the basic account, which makes it tempting. And they do register it in your name, limiting their ability to play games later. I've never actually transferred a domain away from them yet; and besides the most worrisome issue is if they go bankrupt and the *new* owner of their assets tries to play games. Having the domain properly registered in my name is the best protection against that, and they do it. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera mailing lists: From Starshadw at aol.com Mon Sep 29 03:51:00 2003 From: Starshadw at aol.com (Starshadw at aol.com) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 06:51:00 EDT Subject: domain hosting? Message-ID: <68.355d414e.2ca96894@aol.com> For getting your domain name, I recommend NameSecure (www.namesecure.com) - good prices, and great service for it. As for hosting, take a look at F5 Hosting. They are, bar none, the best webhost I've found out there. Period. Prices are great, and the customer service is superb. www.f5hosting.com Stacy From rone at ennui.org Mon Sep 29 07:28:55 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (roger n. tospott) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 07:28:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: domain hosting? In-Reply-To: <68.355d414e.2ca96894@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030929142855.69E9226C32@boredom.ennui.org> Starshadw at aol.com writes: As for hosting, take a look at F5 Hosting. They are, bar none, the best webhost I've found out there. Period. Prices are great, and the customer service is superb. www.f5hosting.com I hope they're not related to F5 the networking company.... rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Mon Sep 29 09:43:36 2003 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 11:43:36 -0500 Subject: domain hosting? References: Message-ID: I personally recommend Dreamhost.com They are cheap (9.99 month/free domain reg. and free yearly renewal as long as you use them) and have some of the most excellent support I have ever seen, anyways they are worth a look; their web management tools for hosting are as far as I'm concerned unparallel. I know of about 10-15 site owners who use them as well as the 3 I host with them and have yet to have any problems that were not corrected blazingly fast. Hope that helps, enjoy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark A Mandel" To: "brustlists" ; Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 8:15 PM Subject: domain hosting? > I'm fed up with my ISP, theworld.com, and I'm ready to get my own > cracksandshards.com domain, as many people have suggested. I am open to > suggestions for good brokers or whatever the word is for the companies > you can go to for this, and also warnings for who to stay away from. > > -- Mark A. Mandel > > > > > From mam at theworld.com Mon Sep 29 13:26:22 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:26:22 -0400 Subject: Jon Carey complained about lack of list volume. In-Reply-To: <20030929020526.3241.qmail@web40101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Sep 2003, Toubib wrote: #> Hey, hey, HEY! #Mr Mandel, # #I would be greatly honored to have a link to my site #on yours. Your's has been one of my favorite for #sometime now. And if you don't mind when I get a links #section up it would be my pleasure to place a link to #you sight as well. I've made some updates to my site #structure. The new address is www.toubib.us/dragaera Thanks. Will do, probably within the week. Do you want your email address listed? Spambaffled? What should I use for your name, if anything? (Dr. Whom sticks his head into the room: = By the way, Doc, the spelling you want here = is "site" (meaning location), not "sight" = (a thing to see or the power of vision) or = "cite" (to quote, or a quotation). Shut up, Loiosh! = I beg your pardon? (sigh) Never mind.) #I'll work on the readablity of some of the pages. I #may try to reverse the colors and see how that works. #I really want to keep with the theme that the color #are the colors of that person's House. # #Also another Crack for your sight, since I didn't see #it the last time I was there. In Jhereg[paperback #p.154] when Vlad goes to Morrolan's tower he says #there is only one window, but in Dragon[paperback #p.98] he says there are more then 6 but less then 17. Somewhere he keeps counting them and coming up with a different number each time. I think that observation covers the discrepancies nicely. -- Mark A. Mandel http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Tue Sep 30 14:32:24 2003 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:32:24 -0700 Subject: Longevity Message-ID: Here's a question that (I think) has remained unaddressed so far, who, or what is Misca the coachman? He appears to physically be an Easterner, he seems aware of the witch practises that Morrollan follows, but he also appears unchanged after an interval of approx. 100 years. James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN _________________________________________________________________ High-speed Internet access as low as $29.95/month (depending on the local service providers in your area). Click here. https://broadband.msn.com From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Sep 30 14:37:30 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:37:30 -0500 Subject: Longevity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20030930213730.GA1994@infodancer.org> On Tue, Sep 30, 2003 at 02:32:24PM -0700, James Griffin wrote: > Here's a question that (I think) has remained unaddressed so far, who, or > what is Misca the coachman? > He appears to physically be an Easterner, he seems aware of the witch > practises that Morrollan follows, but he also appears unchanged after an > interval of approx. 100 years. He is a Coachman. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Sep 30 14:56:26 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:56:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Coachman (was: Re: Longevity ) Message-ID: <200309302156.h8ULuQI16935@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Here's a question that (I think) has remained unaddressed so far, who, or > what is Misca the coachman? > He appears to physically be an Easterner, he seems aware of the witch > practises that Morrollan follows, but he also appears unchanged after an > interval of approx. 100 years. He is a Coachman! What the heck is that supposed to mean, you ask? Coachmen are prevailant in Hungarian "folktales", and appear in a number of Brust's books. As anything and everything cool came from Hungarians, it's not surprising why they make appearances in Steve's work. If you want to learn more about them, read _The Gypsy_, by Brust and Lindholm. It should give you a good idea as to why the Coachman on Dragaera lives so long. It's also a damn fine book. Chris "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, son." - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm From Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net Tue Sep 30 22:56:48 2003 From: Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net (Daemian Spayde) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 22:56:48 -0700 Subject: Coachman References: <20030930213730.GA1994@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <005401c387e0$cede3900$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> He's Mario! /hide Daemian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Hunter" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 2:37 PM Subject: Re: Longevity > On Tue, Sep 30, 2003 at 02:32:24PM -0700, James Griffin wrote: > > Here's a question that (I think) has remained unaddressed so far, who, or > > what is Misca the coachman? > > He appears to physically be an Easterner, he seems aware of the witch > > practises that Morrollan follows, but he also appears unchanged after an > > interval of approx. 100 years. > > He is a Coachman. > > -- > Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) > Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt > Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp > Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp