From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Wed Oct 1 07:13:39 2003 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 07:13:39 -0700 Subject: Longevity Message-ID: >From: Matthew Hunter > >He is a Coachman. > Well, that makes everything clear. James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN _________________________________________________________________ Instant message in style with MSN Messenger 6.0. Download it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com From Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net Wed Oct 1 09:46:13 2003 From: Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net (Daemian Spayde) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 09:46:13 -0700 Subject: _SL_ cover Defense References: <20030926015437.39854.qmail@web20007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005501c3883b$8849ece0$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> <<>> Something that people might consider when regarding the covers of these books is who the 'Intended' Author is. Remember, these are the 'Paarfi Romances'. As such, I think the covers have been Very well done, as they reflect Paarfi's over-zealous interpretation of his main Characters. The fact that these books 'might' be considered the 'Trashy Romance Novels of the modern Draegeran Age' is perfectly reflected in the style and design of each of the three Covers. For those who don't read trashy romance (or know someone who does), 99 percent of the time, the person on the Cover (Pre-Bird Fabio) hardly represents even ONE Character in the book! The Cover of these books (and I am sure that Paarfi uses the same motivation) are intended to 'catch the readers attention, and get them to pick up the book'. Don't get me wrong. I'm agreeing with what everyone else is saying about how it looks nothing like Sethra, but I, for one, think that was the point. Remember that in Draegera some people call these 'Historical Fiction', which means that Paarfi may have a tendancy to imbelish a bit. Just my two Orbs worth, Daemian From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Oct 2 22:20:57 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 22:20:57 -0700 Subject: _SL_ cover References: Message-ID: <013301c3896e$208375c0$f700000a@steve> > 1) Okay, she has black, straight hair, if rather bland. mundane hair--not > the pin-needle straight hair you might associate with a vampire. > Merciful heavens. When did we being to associate pin-needle straight hair with vampires? I'm inclined to think that might be an artist's rendition of Roaana, if it's any specific character. I'm not sure why it should be any specific character though. Seems like a good cover. From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Oct 2 22:51:05 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 03 Oct 2003 00:51:05 -0500 Subject: Call for artwork In-Reply-To: <1065158452.6572.ezmlm@dragaera.info> Message-ID: Having engaged in a long, complex, development process, scragged it all, and started over on something saner, we're approaching needing some actual graphics work for the improved, upgraded dragaera.info web site. I'm hoping there's an artist or two in the audience that would be willing to do a little work in exchange for credit. (Me, I'm doing the design and programming for free, *and* providing the hosting; there isn't money available to pay anything tolerable for the artwork either, I'm afraid.) While I can be convinced to change the overall design for a good enough idea, here's what I'm looking for right now: Minimum: An illustration for the left side of the page headers; about 150 pixels high, not much more than 350 pixels long, and black background (so it can be extended into a black bar across the whole top of the page). Then I need a light color (which I'm using for the text over the black bar, and the background of the content area, and the text on the black navigation buttons), and an intermediate color (that I'm using for the navigation bar on the left, with black buttons on it); both colors to relate to the colors in the illustration. This header would be used on every page in the site, with different titles superimposed on the right. Next step up, for the more ambitious: A header as above to be used on all the subsidiary pages, and a fancier header for the homepage only. The homepage header could be somewhat taller. It doesn't have to leave room for text, but in that case should incorporate "Dragaera" or "dragaera.info". Shouldn't be more than about 700 pixels wide, and designed so it can be extended into a bar across the top of the screen with the artwork centered and still look good (so it works well on different window sizes). Of course the homepage and the subsidiary page headers should "relate" somehow, and should work with the same colors on the rest of the page. A fancier button design that goes with the headings could be used, if you want to do one. Static artwork only; no flash or animations need apply. I've got a mockup I'm working with, which is based on artwork we can't use (but I needed something to work out the templating with). I can send a screen shot of a page the way it looks now if you need a clearer understanding of how I'm thinking. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera mailing lists: From TimN at rcn.com Fri Oct 3 09:41:03 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 12:41:03 -0400 Subject: _SL_ cover Defense References: <20030926015437.39854.qmail@web20007.mail.yahoo.com> <005501c3883b$8849ece0$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> Message-ID: <005a01c389cd$34c78da0$d916fea9@ananda> True. However, Paarfi is a Human. He has internalized the cycle, the houses, and their colors very effectively. Is he going to tolerate the Enchantress being depicted in the color of disease and decay? Hardly. "Color her black for sorcery; color her gray for death." ----- Original Message ----- From: Daemian Spayde To: Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 12:46 PM Subject: Re: _SL_ cover Defense > > <<>> > > Something that people might consider when regarding the covers of these > books is who the 'Intended' Author is. > > Remember, these are the 'Paarfi Romances'. As such, I think the covers have > been Very well done, as they reflect Paarfi's over-zealous interpretation of > his main Characters. > > The fact that these books 'might' be considered the 'Trashy Romance Novels > of the modern Draegeran Age' is perfectly reflected in the style and design > of each of the three Covers. > > For those who don't read trashy romance (or know someone who does), 99 > percent of the time, the person on the Cover (Pre-Bird Fabio) hardly > represents even ONE Character in the book! The Cover of these books (and I > am sure that Paarfi uses the same motivation) are intended to 'catch the > readers attention, and get them to pick up the book'. > > Don't get me wrong. I'm agreeing with what everyone else is saying about how > it looks nothing like Sethra, but I, for one, think that was the point. > Remember that in Draegera some people call these 'Historical Fiction', which > means that Paarfi may have a tendancy to imbelish a bit. > > Just my two Orbs worth, > > Daemian > From TimN at rcn.com Fri Oct 3 09:44:05 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 12:44:05 -0400 Subject: _SL_ cover References: <013301c3896e$208375c0$f700000a@steve> Message-ID: <00af01c389cd$8f8eb060$d916fea9@ananda> Tee hee? ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven Brust To: Jon Carey ; Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 1:20 AM Subject: Re: _SL_ cover > (snip) > I'm inclined to think that might be an artist's rendition of Roaana, if > it's any specific character. I'm not sure why it should be any specific > character though. Seems like a good cover. > From druid at celticbear.com Fri Oct 3 09:47:06 2003 From: druid at celticbear.com (LRW) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 11:47:06 -0500 Subject: _SL_ cover Defense In-Reply-To: <005a01c389cd$34c78da0$d916fea9@ananda> References: <20030926015437.39854.qmail@web20007.mail.yahoo.com> <005501c3883b$8849ece0$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> <005a01c389cd$34c78da0$d916fea9@ananda> Message-ID: <1065199626.3f7da80adbf96@www.celticbear.com> Quoting Daemian Spayde : > Don't get me wrong. I'm agreeing with what everyone else is saying about how > it looks nothing like Sethra, but I, for one, think that was the point. > Remember that in Draegera some people call these 'Historical Fiction', which > means that Paarfi may have a tendancy to imbelish a bit. > I completely agree in spirit, and I think this is an insightful theory. Unfortunately I think you give the book cover designers too much credit and project too much intelligence upon them. I honestly think, from my very limited knowledge of the industry, that the cover designers know and care very little about what they're potraying. With very few notable exceptions, like Keith Parkinson's cover designs, most contract artists are given a general idea from the publisher of what the book's about and then they come up with something (usually without ever having read the book,) and the publisher approves the sketches if it's, as you mentioned, eye-catching. Even Keith Parkinson who usually does work for authors he knows and appreciates, has been forced to change his sketches and ideas of the appearance based on the wants of the people signing his checks. Remember the original paperback cover for "Taltos" with the curley blonde hair? Anyone who actually read the book would have read a very different description of Vlad. Liam --- "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, 1759 "When making your choice in life, do not neglect to live." - Samuel Johnson From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Fri Oct 3 09:52:15 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 09:52:15 -0700 Subject: On the subject of artwork In-Reply-To: <1065199626.3f7da80adbf96@www.celticbear.com> References: <20030926015437.39854.qmail@web20007.mail.yahoo.com> <005501c3883b$8849ece0$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> <005a01c389cd$34c78da0$d916fea9@ananda> <1065199626.3f7da80adbf96@www.celticbear.com> Message-ID: Have there been any author-approved calendars done of Dragaera works, similar to the Tolkien calendars we see everywhere? That may be our best bet for good artwork. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Oct 3 10:00:42 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 03 Oct 2003 12:00:42 -0500 Subject: On the subject of artwork In-Reply-To: References: <20030926015437.39854.qmail@web20007.mail.yahoo.com> <005501c3883b$8849ece0$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> <005a01c389cd$34c78da0$d916fea9@ananda> <1065199626.3f7da80adbf96@www.celticbear.com> Message-ID: lazarus writes: > Have there been any author-approved calendars done of Dragaera works, > similar to the Tolkien calendars we see everywhere? That may be our > best bet for good artwork. There have not, unfortunately. And it would have the same problem as the cover art (which is what I've done the mock-up based on), namely we'd still have to negotiate rights with the artist, and since we have no money I don't really think this is our most-likely-to-succeed strategy. Although if no other interesting options turn up, I'm sure we'll eventually try that approach; worst he can say is "no". -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera mailing lists: From greatcthulhu1 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 10:00:43 2003 From: greatcthulhu1 at yahoo.com (Oscar Rios) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 10:00:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: On the subject of artwork In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031003170043.45764.qmail@web41905.mail.yahoo.com> Now that, is an outstanding idea. I have a friend who is an excellent artist, and also a really big Dragaera fan. I am sure with only a little prodding she could create some images I think die hard fans would approve of. Does anyone else have such friends or talents themselves? Maybe we could set them all to work. lazarus wrote:Have there been any author-approved calendars done of Dragaera works, similar to the Tolkien calendars we see everywhere? That may be our best bet for good artwork. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Fri Oct 3 10:05:53 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 10:05:53 -0700 Subject: On the subject of artwork In-Reply-To: References: <20030926015437.39854.qmail@web20007.mail.yahoo.com> <005501c3883b$8849ece0$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> <005a01c389cd$34c78da0$d916fea9@ananda> <1065199626.3f7da80adbf96@www.celticbear.com> Message-ID: <51brnv05910n5pfft00njkjcafh3niadu1@4ax.com> On 03 Oct 2003 12:00:42 -0500, you wrote: >lazarus writes: > >> Have there been any author-approved calendars done of Dragaera works, >> similar to the Tolkien calendars we see everywhere? That may be our >> best bet for good artwork. > >There have not, unfortunately. And it would have the same problem as >the cover art (which is what I've done the mock-up based on), namely >we'd still have to negotiate rights with the artist, and since we have >no money I don't really think this is our most-likely-to-succeed >strategy. Although if no other interesting options turn up, I'm sure >we'll eventually try that approach; worst he can say is "no". Yeah, I guess this isn't quite commercial enough to make a calendar worth it yet. Pity. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From melalvai at kemenel.org Fri Oct 3 10:14:14 2003 From: melalvai at kemenel.org (Rachel Ruhlen) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 12:14:14 -0500 Subject: On the subject of artwork In-Reply-To: <20031003170043.45764.qmail@web41905.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20031003170043.45764.qmail@web41905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031003121259.01b3cc78@tigger.uic.edu> At 12:00 PM 10/3/2003, Oscar Rios wrote: >lazarus wrote:Have there been any author-approved >calendars done of Dragaera works, >similar to the Tolkien calendars we see everywhere? That may be our >best bet for good artwork. How could we have Dragaeran art interposed on a 12-month calendar? It goes against the grain. Maybe it could be a 16-month calendar, with the 17th picture as the cover. Rachel From kynigos at comcast.net Fri Oct 3 10:16:30 2003 From: kynigos at comcast.net (Orion Kynigos) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 10:16:30 -0700 Subject: On the subject of artwork In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20031003121259.01b3cc78@tigger.uic.edu> Message-ID: <000501c389d2$17463380$0202a8c0@Lexicon> Call me silly, but I would like to see an actual Dragaeran calendar... 17 Months, 5 day weeks, etc. -----Original Message----- From: Rachel Ruhlen [mailto:melalvai at kemenel.org] Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 10:14 To: Dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: On the subject of artwork At 12:00 PM 10/3/2003, Oscar Rios wrote: >lazarus wrote:Have there been any >author-approved >calendars done of Dragaera works, >similar to the Tolkien calendars we see everywhere? That may be our >best bet for good artwork. How could we have Dragaeran art interposed on a 12-month calendar? It goes against the grain. Maybe it could be a 16-month calendar, with the 17th picture as the cover. Rachel From bio_phy at hotmail.com Fri Oct 3 11:22:12 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 13:22:12 -0500 Subject: On the subject of artwork Message-ID: Ok - you're silly. ; ) johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ "Almost any act of (creative) expression is an act of courage. Whenever you write (something) and you show it to someone else, it's an act of courage because it's your life, it's who you are and you're laying it out on the table and you're either going to be rejected or accepted." Terry Scott Taylor >Call me silly, but I would like to see an actual Dragaeran calendar... >17 Months, 5 day weeks, etc. _________________________________________________________________ Instant message in style with MSN Messenger 6.0. Download it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com From davids at kithrup.com Fri Oct 3 11:50:22 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 11:50:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C. Sophronia Cleebers Message-ID: (I sent this to the esteemed and noted philologist Dr. Whom on 18 Sep 2003, and, after receiving no response, I am assuming that the message had the misfortune to become lost in the aether, perhaps due to the problems with his Internet Service Provider [1] of which he complained recently here. If the good doctor has in fact received this message, and has simply not had the time to respond to its contents, I humbly apologize for the redundant repetition of this duplicate missive, which I am also sending to the list in the faint hope that the mailing list might get through where my own mail server was not in fact able.) [1] I misspelled this originally, and one of the choices offered by my spool chucker was "Provoker". Which seems equally appropriate, given the circumstances. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 12:56:34 -0700 (PDT) From: David Silberstein To: mam at theworld.com Subject: C. Sophronia Cleebers Greetings! It happened to transpire that I desired to investigate more about the name which appears above as the Subject: of this missive; given that it appeared as the nom-de-plume of the writer of the afterword to Paarfi of Roundwood's first volume of /The Viscount of Adhrilankha/, which is also titled /The Paths of the Dead/. Searching on "Sophronia" brought up far too many hits, but the phrase "Sophronia Cleebers" brought up only three hits. One of them was in fact for your webpage, whose Uniform Resource Locator is as follows: http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/contentsKF.html On examining this page, I noted that you appear to have the copyright on the afterword as belonging to Emma Bull. As best as I can determine from the copyright page to /The Paths of the Dead/, as well as from comments from Mr. Brust himself on his personal web journal, whose Uniform Resource Locator is as follows: http://www.dreamcafe.com/weblog.cgi (please scroll down to the entry dated "Oct 11th 2002"), while the excellent Ms. Bull does indeed have the copyright on the *prologue*, the *afterword* is copyrighted to Teresa Nielsen Hayden, and while I am sure that she is as noble and excellent as Emma Bull, I am also sure that she is a completely different person. Hoping that this will provide you with the necessary and sufficient information to correct the attribution on your web page noted above, I remain, Davdi of Silverrock From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Oct 3 11:54:50 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 13:54:50 -0500 Subject: C. Sophronia Cleebers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031003185450.GB1814@infodancer.org> On Fri, Oct 03, 2003 at 11:50:22AM -0700, David Silberstein wrote: > (please scroll down to the entry dated "Oct 11th 2002"), while the > excellent Ms. Bull does indeed have the copyright on the *prologue*, > the *afterword* is copyrighted to Teresa Nielsen Hayden, and while I > am sure that she is as noble and excellent as Emma Bull, I am also > sure that she is a completely different person. Are you *really* sure? What if they are both secretly Mario? -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From jetdragon at comcast.net Fri Oct 3 12:15:06 2003 From: jetdragon at comcast.net (jetdragon at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 19:15:06 +0000 Subject: On the subject of artwork Message-ID: 100320031915.14593.6230@comcast.net lazarus wrote: > Have there been any author-approved calendars done of Dragaera works, > similar to the Tolkien calendars we see everywhere? That may be our > best bet for good artwork. This isn't what you had in mind, I don't think, but I discovered this on Hot Topic's site: http://www.hottopic.com/store/product.asp?LS=0&M=750761643&ITEM=203233 It seems that the cover artist of the Vlad books has produced his own calendar, including at least the covers of _Athyra_ and _Orca_ (visible in the smaller inset image). Just looked like something someone might enjoy :) -Jessica From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Oct 3 13:20:13 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 16:20:13 -0400 Subject: On the subject of artwork Message-ID: <50B340CA.2BFDEF23.00048EA6@aol.com> jetdragon at comcast.net writes: > lazarus wrote: >> Have there been any author-approved calendars done of >> Dragaera works, similar to the Tolkien calendars we see >> everywhere? ?That may be our best bet for good artwork. > > This isn't what you had in mind, I don't think, but I > discovered this on Hot Topic's site: >http://www.hottopic.com/store/product.asp?LS=0&M=750761643&ITEM=203233 > > It seems that the cover artist of the Vlad books has > produced his own calendar, including at least the covers of > _Athyra_ and _Orca_ (visible in the smaller inset image). > Just looked like something someone might enjoy :) I'm tempted to cry "false advertising" on that. Loiosh is *not* a dragon, and I can't see calling those covers "new art". And if you're wondering why only those covers, its because those are the only Brust covers that artist has done. (Stephen Hickman has done five, and the remaining two were done by different people.) --KG From davids at kithrup.com Fri Oct 3 13:47:20 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 13:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: On the subject of artwork In-Reply-To: <50B340CA.2BFDEF23.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >I'm tempted to cry "false advertising" on that. Loiosh is >*not* a dragon, and I can't see calling those covers "new >art". And if you're wondering why only those covers, its >because those are the only Brust covers that artist has done. > A quick search on "Ciruelo Cabral" brings up thousands of hits. Many of those sites have galleries of his works, including the covers noted. Speaking of Loiosh not being a dragon, I've been saving up the follwing for a while. It's from the Publisher's Weekly review of /Issola/, written, I see, by one Peter Cannon [1]: The dashing Lord Vlad Taltos returns in this ninth installment of the Taltos series [...] in which the hero engages in more philosophical musing than muscle work. Still a renegade, Jheregan outcast and witch, Taltos must rescue, once again, his Dragonlord friends, Morrolan e'Drien and Aliera e'Kieron, this time from the powerful creators of Dragaera, the Jenoine. Accompanied by his faithful familiar, the funny pocket dragon, Loiosh, Taltos as usual relies on his psychic and magical strengths as well as his dazzling swordplay. There's more, of course, but I daresay only the morbidly curious would be interested. [/"*FUNNY POCKET DRAGON*"!? Boss, *please* can I bite him?/] [1] It occurs to me now that this might be a snide pseudonym, perhaps. From bio_phy at hotmail.com Fri Oct 3 14:16:07 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 16:16:07 -0500 Subject: C. Sophronia Cleebers Message-ID: Perhaps they're both secretly the Coachman. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa >On Fri, Oct 03, 2003 at 11:50:22AM -0700, David Silberstein > wrote: > > (please scroll down to the entry dated "Oct 11th 2002"), while the > > excellent Ms. Bull does indeed have the copyright on the *prologue*, > > the *afterword* is copyrighted to Teresa Nielsen Hayden, and while I > > am sure that she is as noble and excellent as Emma Bull, I am also > > sure that she is a completely different person. > >Are you *really* sure? What if they are both secretly Mario? > >-- >Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) _________________________________________________________________ Get McAfee virus scanning and cleaning of incoming attachments. Get Hotmail Extra Storage! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Oct 3 16:20:07 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 03 Oct 2003 18:20:07 -0500 Subject: On the subject of artwork In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20031003121259.01b3cc78@tigger.uic.edu> References: <20031003170043.45764.qmail@web41905.mail.yahoo.com> <6.0.0.22.2.20031003121259.01b3cc78@tigger.uic.edu> Message-ID: Rachel Ruhlen writes: > At 12:00 PM 10/3/2003, Oscar Rios wrote: > > > lazarus wrote:Have there been any > > author-approved calendars done of Dragaera works, > >similar to the Tolkien calendars we see everywhere? That may be our > >best bet for good artwork. > > How could we have Dragaeran art interposed on a 12-month calendar? It > goes against the grain. > Maybe it could be a 16-month calendar, with the 17th picture as the cover. 16-month calendars are actually useful. On the other hand, that does mean finding 5 more good pieces of art. For this sort of project one either has way too much good stuff, or not nearly enough, in my experience; so if it does go the "too much" route that's an idea to consider. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera mailing lists: From mtiller at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 4 14:32:56 2003 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 22:32:56 +0100 Subject: _SL_ cover In-Reply-To: <013301c3896e$208375c0$f700000a@steve> Message-ID: <000f01c38abf$16710c80$0101a8c0@sweetdrewydscc> -----Original Message----- From: Steven Brust [mailto:skzb at dreamcafe.com] Sent: 03 October 2003 06:21 To: Jon Carey; Dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: _SL_ cover >Merciful heavens. When did we being to associate pin-needle straight hair with vampires? Indeed, haven't you seen Underworld? :) > I'm inclined to think that might be an artist's rendition of Roaana, if it's any specific character. I'm not > sure why it should be any specific character though. Given that the words Sethra Lavode appear above the person in large letters, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that it's her. > Seems like a good cover. Good in what respect? Or if you prefer, may I respectfully inquire what you consider makes a good cover? Regards Mark From lister at insaneninjahero.com Sat Oct 4 17:27:38 2003 From: lister at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 18:27:38 -0600 Subject: Sethra Lavode cover Message-ID: <3F7F657A.4090908@insaneninjahero.com> I look at that cover and I see Tazendra. Though why she'd be standing on Sethra's throne, I'm unclear. As far as it goes, I wasn't impressed with the cover. But given that Morrolon looks like John Travolta a la Pulp Fiction - I'd never have guessed that before I saw the cover of LoCB - I'm left to wonder if my opinion holds any weight at all. Kisc From anreed at wm.edu Sun Oct 5 09:56:25 2003 From: anreed at wm.edu (Abby Reed) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 12:56:25 -0400 Subject: _SL_ cover In-Reply-To: <000f01c38abf$16710c80$0101a8c0@sweetdrewydscc> References: <013301c3896e$208375c0$f700000a@steve> Message-ID: <4.1.20031005124813.00986e50@mail.wm.edu> >> Seems like a good cover. > >Good in what respect? Or if you prefer, may I respectfully inquire what you >consider makes a good cover? > Quoting from the introduction he wrote for the Jhereg graphic novel: "Every once in a while someone will approach me and say something like, 'Does it bother you that the characters on the covers of your books don't look like you've described them?' The brief answer is: No, because he point of those covers, as far as I'm concerned, is to attract the eye of the sort of person who will enjoy the books. That is, insofar as someone who buys the book for the cover (consciously or not) doesn't feel cheated when he discovers what sort of story it is, i feel the cover is successful" Which is a reasonable attitude to take, given that covers are meant to encourage impulse buys. Those of us that already read Brust will buy the book regardless of the cover, so we aren't the intended audience. Abby From hans117 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 5 14:30:51 2003 From: hans117 at yahoo.com (Hans Schweitzer) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 14:30:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: On the subject of artwork In-Reply-To: <50B340CA.2BFDEF23.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20031005213051.36993.qmail@web13808.mail.yahoo.com> >I'm tempted to cry "false advertising" on that. Loiosh is >*not* a dragon, and I can't see calling those covers "new >art". Well, I was introduced to this series because I was going through a phase in 3rd grade where I was really interested in dragons. My Mom bought me Orca for Christmas thinking that?s what it was about. (Says something about her that she didn't read the summary.) So the covers work and they resemble dragons. It passes the test because I was happy with the book. My opinion is covers are good if they get people to look at or buy the book. It would be nice if fans liked them too, but as far as the publisher is concerned it doesn?t matter. Sadly, looking at the Sethra Lavode cover, it doesn?t even seem to be a great cover based on these qualifications. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search From bonham15 at cox.net Sun Oct 5 15:11:00 2003 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 17:11:00 -0500 Subject: On the subject of artwork References: <20031005213051.36993.qmail@web13808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000701c38b8d$8f4cf1e0$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> Oddly it was the style of print on the cover/spine of 'jhereg' that got me interested in reading the books. That and I enjoyed cowboy feng's enough to keep an eye out for the author's other works, which I haven't liked ALL of, but a pretty darned good percentage. Usually the synopsis is the thing that hooks me along with an interesting title staring off the spine from the bookstore shelf. Having said that, the artwork on Brust's books tends toward the uneven, especially when compared to something like the Fire and Ice stuff from Martin. Compared to other works, it definitely shows that there is a ton of room for improvement no matter what level of fandom you happen to fall into, as the below quote states. :) andy > >I'm tempted to cry "false advertising" on that. Loiosh is > >*not* a dragon, and I can't see calling those covers "new > >art". > Well, I was introduced to this series because I was going through a phase in 3rd grade where I was really interested in dragons. My Mom bought me Orca for Christmas thinking that's what it was about. (Says something about her that she didn't read the summary.) So the covers work and they resemble dragons. It passes the test because I was happy with the book. My opinion is covers are good if they get people to look at or buy the book. It would be nice if fans liked them too, but as far as the publisher is concerned it doesn't matter. Sadly, looking at the Sethra Lavode cover, it doesn't even seem to be a great cover based on these qualifications. > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search From Gaertk at aol.com Sun Oct 5 19:20:30 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 22:20:30 -0400 Subject: POLL: Who is she? Message-ID: <3392B159.5A9EE2CF.00048EA6@aol.com> Who do you think is pictured on the cover of _Sethra Lavode_? http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0312855818.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg a) Sethra Lavode b) Ibronka c) Roanna d) Tazendra e) Devera f) Zerika IV g) Mario h) Sethra the Younger i) Sorceress in Green j) the Necromancer k) Grita l) Illista m) Habil n) Daro o) Mario p) Cawti q) Brigitta Did I leave anyone out? --KG From pulmon at comcast.net Sun Oct 5 19:31:31 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 22:31:31 -0400 Subject: POLL: Who is she? In-Reply-To: <3392B159.5A9EE2CF.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <3226BF71-F7A5-11D7-86DE-0003938F1608@comcast.net> k On Sunday, October 5, 2003, at 10:20 PM, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > Who do you think is pictured on the cover of _Sethra Lavode_? > http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0312855818.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg > > a) Sethra Lavode > b) Ibronka > c) Roanna > d) Tazendra > e) Devera > f) Zerika IV > g) Mario > h) Sethra the Younger > i) Sorceress in Green > j) the Necromancer > k) Grita > l) Illista > m) Habil > n) Daro > o) Mario > p) Cawti > q) Brigitta > > Did I leave anyone out? > > > --KG > From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Oct 5 19:37:40 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 19:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: POLL: Who is she? In-Reply-To: <3392B159.5A9EE2CF.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <3392B159.5A9EE2CF.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > Who do you think is pictured on the cover of _Sethra Lavode_? > > a) Sethra Lavode > ... > q) Brigitta > > Did I leave anyone out? A character from left field who will appear in the final act to straighten everything out and vanish? A character from left field who from off-stage in the final act straightens everything out and vanishes? An idealized representation of some cannon-foddery noble? The person whose soul is in BW? --- Has to be the EoDM in her judo gear. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Oct 5 19:46:29 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 19:46:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: On the subject of artwork In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Oct 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > > Speaking of Loiosh not being a dragon, I've been saving up the > follwing for a while. It's from the Publisher's Weekly review of > /Issola/, written, I see, by one Peter Cannon [1]: [snip] > Accompanied by his faithful familiar, the funny pocket dragon, > Loiosh, Taltos as usual relies on his psychic and magical > strengths as well as his dazzling swordplay. Ok, so Vlad doesn't do much dazzling even knifeplay in _I_. But say you were being charged by the word and writing for a mostly unititiate audience - how would you better describe L in three words? He does play the funny pocket dragon role, at least as I understand it. Maybe he practically invented the role. From djshathe at hotmail.com Sun Oct 5 19:40:38 2003 From: djshathe at hotmail.com (Dejin Shathe) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 12:40:38 +1000 Subject: POLL: Who is she? Message-ID: I'm going g) or o) - can't really decide which though... "It is a fool's prerogative to utter truths that no-one else will speak." >From: Gaertk at aol.com >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: POLL: Who is she? >Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 22:20:30 -0400 > >Who do you think is pictured on the cover of _Sethra Lavode_? >http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0312855818.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg > >a) Sethra Lavode >b) Ibronka >c) Roanna >d) Tazendra >e) Devera >f) Zerika IV >g) Mario >h) Sethra the Younger >i) Sorceress in Green >j) the Necromancer >k) Grita >l) Illista >m) Habil >n) Daro >o) Mario >p) Cawti >q) Brigitta > >Did I leave anyone out? > > >--KG > _________________________________________________________________ Chat via SMS. Simply send 'CHAT' to 1889918. More info at http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilemania/MoChat.asp?blipid=6800 From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Sun Oct 5 19:36:08 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 22:36:08 -0400 Subject: POLL: Who is she? In-Reply-To: <3392B159.5A9EE2CF.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <3392B159.5A9EE2CF.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20031006023608.GA37063@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Sun, Oct 05, 2003 at 10:20:30PM -0400, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > Who do you think is pictured on the cover of _Sethra Lavode_? > http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0312855818.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg > . . . > d) Tazendra > Did I leave anyone out? Yes, but no-one would believe it's Steven Brust. -- "I thought my boss was a bastard, and quit to work for myself. My new boss is a bastard too, but at least I respect him." -- unknown From goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU Sun Oct 5 21:09:38 2003 From: goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (David Goldfarb) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 21:09:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: POLL: Who is she? Message-ID: <200310060409.h9649ct06737@famine.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> It's intended to be Sethra Lavode. That much is obvious. That it contradicts textual descriptions of Sethra is not relevant -- I mind me of one of John Morressey's Kedrigern books in which Kedrigern specifically takes pains to point out that he is clean-shaven and bare-headed; and on the cover? A wizard-type with a long white beard and tall pointy hat! -- David Goldfarb <*>| "When the cat calls at midnight, your shorts goldfarb at ocf.berkeley.edu | will ignite." goldfarb at csua.berkeley.edu | -- J. Michael Straczynski From TimN at rcn.com Sun Oct 5 21:35:50 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 00:35:50 -0400 Subject: POLL: Who is she? References: <3392B159.5A9EE2CF.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <008101c38bc3$529fe500$d916fea9@ananda> Blood of the horse, I nearly think you have included Mario twice! Therefore, my vote is either G or O, depending on the Cycle at the time you'd ask me. It occurs to me that there are, in fact, 17 options. So perhaps in this wise, Mario represents the Phoenix? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 10:20 PM Subject: POLL: Who is she? > Who do you think is pictured on the cover of _Sethra Lavode_? > http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0312855818.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg > > a) Sethra Lavode > b) Ibronka > c) Roanna > d) Tazendra > e) Devera > f) Zerika IV > g) Mario > h) Sethra the Younger > i) Sorceress in Green > j) the Necromancer > k) Grita > l) Illista > m) Habil > n) Daro > o) Mario > p) Cawti > q) Brigitta > > Did I leave anyone out? > > > --KG > From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Oct 5 22:04:10 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 22:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT - amusing rant for language fans In-Reply-To: <20031006023608.GA37063@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <3392B159.5A9EE2CF.00048EA6@aol.com> <20031006023608.GA37063@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: http://efl.htmlplanet.com/interlanguage.htm#cantenglish (by L1 he means extrapolating grammar from the native language into the learned one) From ambyrglow at softhome.net Sun Oct 5 22:36:58 2003 From: ambyrglow at softhome.net (Claire Rojstaczer) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 01:36:58 -0400 Subject: POLL: Who is she? In-Reply-To: <008101c38bc3$529fe500$d916fea9@ananda> References: <3392B159.5A9EE2CF.00048EA6@aol.com> <008101c38bc3$529fe500$d916fea9@ananda> Message-ID: >Blood of the horse, I nearly think you have included Mario twice! One of them is the real Mario. The other is the secret Mario-in-disguise-as-another-important-character that our devious author continues to claim does not exist. Obviously, the two Marios look different. Claire, making up excuses. From rone at ennui.org Sun Oct 5 23:09:25 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (roger n. tospott) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 23:09:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: POLL: Who is she? In-Reply-To: <3392B159.5A9EE2CF.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20031006060925.C631D26C32@boredom.ennui.org> Gaertk at aol.com writes: Who do you think is pictured on the cover of _Sethra Lavode_? http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0312855818.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg [a - q] Did I leave anyone out? You left out "Your mom." rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From davids at kithrup.com Sun Oct 5 23:17:36 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 23:17:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: POLL: Who is she? In-Reply-To: <20031006060925.C631D26C32@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Oct 2003, roger n. tospott wrote: >Gaertk at aol.com writes: > Who do you think is pictured on the cover of _Sethra Lavode_? > http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0312855818.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg > > [a - q] > > Did I leave anyone out? > >You left out "Your mom." > I am not sure why "your mom" should be on the list, however, perhaps *"Vlad's mom"* might well be a remote possibility? From yaga at berkano.pair.com Mon Oct 6 07:08:05 2003 From: yaga at berkano.pair.com (yaga at berkano.pair.com) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 10:08:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: POLL: Who is she? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031006140805.63907.qmail@berkano.pair.com> There's a thought: It could be Verra incarnate - Peter / Yaga > On Sun, 5 Oct 2003, roger n. tospott wrote: > > >Gaertk at aol.com writes: > > Who do you think is pictured on the cover of _Sethra Lavode_? > > http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0312855818.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg > > > > [a - q] > > > > Did I leave anyone out? > > > >You left out "Your mom." > > > > I am not sure why "your mom" should be on the list, however, > perhaps *"Vlad's mom"* might well be a remote possibility? > > From pgranzeau at cox.net Mon Oct 6 09:07:12 2003 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 11:07:12 -0500 Subject: POLL: Who is she? In-Reply-To: <3392B159.5A9EE2CF.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20031006110255.01dd41a0@pop.east.cox.net> At 21:20 10/05/2003, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >Who do you think is pictured on the cover of _Sethra Lavode_? >http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0312855818.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg > >a) Sethra Lavode >b) Ibronka >c) Roanna >d) Tazendra >e) Devera >f) Zerika IV >g) Mario >h) Sethra the Younger >i) Sorceress in Green >j) the Necromancer >k) Grita >l) Illista >m) Habil >n) Daro >o) Mario >p) Cawti >q) Brigitta > >Did I leave anyone out? Whoever it is doesn't appear to be very Dragaeran, as I understand how they look. It is definitely NOT Zerika, who has golden hair and an Orb circling her head. Is this the cover of the next book in the current Paarfi series? I thought its title was going to be _The Sorceress of Dzur Mountain_. I think that the picture is of someone else not named. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Mon Oct 6 10:36:36 2003 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 10:36:36 -0700 Subject: POLL: Who is she? Message-ID: b James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN >From: Gaertk at aol.com >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: POLL: Who is she? >Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 22:20:30 -0400 > >Who do you think is pictured on the cover of _Sethra Lavode_? >http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0312855818.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg > >a) Sethra Lavode >b) Ibronka >c) Roanna >d) Tazendra >e) Devera >f) Zerika IV >g) Mario >h) Sethra the Younger >i) Sorceress in Green >j) the Necromancer >k) Grita >l) Illista >m) Habil >n) Daro >o) Mario >p) Cawti >q) Brigitta > >Did I leave anyone out? > > >--KG > _________________________________________________________________ Get MSN 8 Dial-up Internet Service FREE for one month. Limited time offer-- sign up now! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup From davids at kithrup.com Mon Oct 6 11:50:56 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 11:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: POLL: Who is she? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20031006110255.01dd41a0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Oct 2003, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > >Is this the cover of the next book in the current Paarfi series? I >thought its title was going to be _The Sorceress of Dzur Mountain_. > The title was originally "The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain". This was changed, at the suggestion of Patrick Nielsen Hayden, by Steve. See (scroll down to the entry for: Tue Aug 13th, 2002 2:58 PM): http://www.dreamcafe.com/weblog.cgi See also: http://dragaera.info/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?1:msp:1575:eciobmklmihbeejeejnm (and click through the thread, if you wish) Most of the people voicing an opinion here on the list liked the original title better, but we are not the production staff of Tor. From greatcthulhu1 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 6 12:03:43 2003 From: greatcthulhu1 at yahoo.com (Oscar Rios) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 12:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: POLL: Who is she? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20031006110255.01dd41a0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <20031006190343.50410.qmail@web41901.mail.yahoo.com> Is this the cover of the next book in the current Paarfi series? I thought its title was going to be _The Sorceress of Dzur Mountain_. I think that the picture is of someone else not named. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net In Answer : By the Orb, I think we have been saying nothing else for an hour! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search From usagigoya at hotmail.com Mon Oct 6 12:25:04 2003 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 19:25:04 +0000 Subject: The title was originally "The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain" Message-ID: >The title was originally "The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain". This was >changed, at the suggestion of Patrick Nielsen Hayden, by Steve. > >Steven Brust wrote:Patrick noticed that the production people were all >having trouble pronouncing it, and looking embarrassed. He thought it would be a good idea to be a little more friendly to new readers. I agreed. Patrick has amazing instincts for this sort of thing--I need to have a very strong preference to dispute with him. > What happens when the Vlad Taltos novel DZUR is published? Will the titles of the other (eventually) forthcoming Vlad Taltos books be changed to easier pronounced but more mundane titles? _________________________________________________________________ Instant message during games with MSN Messenger 6.0. Download it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com From casey at the-bat.net Mon Oct 6 13:06:53 2003 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 16:06:53 -0400 Subject: The title was originally "The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Steve Hubbell asked: > What happens when the Vlad Taltos novel DZUR is published? Will > the titles of the other (eventually) forthcoming Vlad Taltos > books be changed to easier pronounced but more mundane titles? Although I asked much the same question last year when the topic first came up, I think the conversation probably went something like: PNH: Steve, we got a problem. SKZB: We do? Sh_t, I ... PNH: No, no, not that. Marketing says 'The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain' is too long a title. SKZB: How is it too long? It's shorter than 'Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban'! PNH: Yeah, but with the Potter books, you can skip the 'Harry Potter and' part in counting how long the title is. Also, the test group couldn't figure out how to pronounce 'Dzur'. SKZB: Oh, sure and Azkaban just trips right off the toungue. PNH: Now, Steve, you know as well as I do that all Scholastic has to do is whisper that there is a new Harry book and people will fork over all their money. SKZB: What if I get around to writing _Dzur_? PNH: We will cross that bridge when we come to it. Besides, you might get bored with Vlad long before then. Let's call this one 'Sethra Lavode'. That keeps the title character the same, keeps the parallels with Dumas's Vicomte, etc. SKZB: It's not that much easier to pronounce. PNH: Just trust me on this one. SKZB: Oh, all right. -Casey From brian.vanskyock at zimmer.com Mon Oct 6 13:14:34 2003 From: brian.vanskyock at zimmer.com (Brian Vanskyock) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 15:14:34 -0500 Subject: The title was originally "The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain" References: Message-ID: <3F81CD2A.53D22847@zimmer.com> extremely funny!!!! b Casey Rousseau wrote: > Steve Hubbell asked: > > What happens when the Vlad Taltos novel DZUR is published? Will > > the titles of the other (eventually) forthcoming Vlad Taltos > > books be changed to easier pronounced but more mundane titles? > > Although I asked much the same question last year when the topic first came > up, I think the conversation probably went something like: > > PNH: Steve, we got a problem. > SKZB: We do? Sh_t, I ... > PNH: No, no, not that. Marketing says 'The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain' > is too long a title. > SKZB: How is it too long? It's shorter than 'Harry Potter and the Prisoner > of Azkaban'! > PNH: Yeah, but with the Potter books, you can skip the 'Harry Potter and' > part in counting how long the title is. Also, the test group couldn't > figure out how to pronounce 'Dzur'. > SKZB: Oh, sure and Azkaban just trips right off the toungue. > PNH: Now, Steve, you know as well as I do that all Scholastic has to do is > whisper that there is a new Harry book and people will fork over all their > money. > SKZB: What if I get around to writing _Dzur_? > PNH: We will cross that bridge when we come to it. Besides, you might get > bored with Vlad long before then. Let's call this one 'Sethra Lavode'. > That keeps the title character the same, keeps the parallels with Dumas's > Vicomte, etc. > SKZB: It's not that much easier to pronounce. > PNH: Just trust me on this one. > SKZB: Oh, all right. > > -Casey From toubib21 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 6 13:42:30 2003 From: toubib21 at yahoo.com (Toubib) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 13:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The title was originally "The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031006204230.60602.qmail@web40105.mail.yahoo.com> --- Steve Hubbell wrote: > >The title was originally "The Enchantress of Dzur > Mountain". This was > >changed, at the suggestion of Patrick Nielsen > Hayden, by Steve. > > > >Steven Brust wrote:Patrick noticed that the > production people were all > >having trouble > pronouncing it, and looking embarrassed. He thought > it would be a good > idea to be a little more friendly to new readers. I > agreed. Patrick has > amazing instincts for this sort of thing--I need to > have a very strong > preference to dispute with him. > > > > What happens when the Vlad Taltos novel DZUR is > published? Will the titles > of the other (eventually) forthcoming Vlad Taltos > books be changed to easier > pronounced but more mundane titles? > I think Dzur is the hardest one to name. It's so different from English...reminds me of Russian(like czar) to my untrained eye, but is probably closer to Hungarian. The rest of the names are pretty English-like I think. Doc __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From pgranzeau at cox.net Mon Oct 6 14:05:20 2003 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 16:05:20 -0500 Subject: The title was originally "The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20031006160314.01dc7a70@pop.east.cox.net> At 15:06 10/06/2003, Casey Rousseau wrote: >PNH: Steve, we got a problem. >SKZB: We do? Sh_t, I ... >PNH: No, no, not that. Marketing says 'The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain' >is too long a title. >SKZB: How is it too long? It's shorter than 'Harry Potter and the Prisoner >of Azkaban'! >PNH: Yeah, but with the Potter books, you can skip the 'Harry Potter and' >part in counting how long the title is. Also, the test group couldn't >figure out how to pronounce 'Dzur'. >SKZB: Oh, sure and Azkaban just trips right off the toungue. >PNH: Now, Steve, you know as well as I do that all Scholastic has to do is >whisper that there is a new Harry book and people will fork over all their >money. >SKZB: What if I get around to writing _Dzur_? >PNH: We will cross that bridge when we come to it. Besides, you might get >bored with Vlad long before then. Let's call this one 'Sethra Lavode'. >That keeps the title character the same, keeps the parallels with Dumas's >Vicomte, etc. >SKZB: It's not that much easier to pronounce. >PNH: Just trust me on this one. >SKZB: Oh, all right. I guess naming a person in the title more matches one of the Dumas titles (wasn't there one called "Louise de Lavallier", or something of that sort? -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From pgranzeau at cox.net Mon Oct 6 14:09:17 2003 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 16:09:17 -0500 Subject: The title was originally "The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain" In-Reply-To: <20031006204230.60602.qmail@web40105.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20031006160730.01dcc970@pop.east.cox.net> At 15:42 10/06/2003, Toubib wrote: >I think Dzur is the hardest one to name. It's so >different from English...reminds me of Russian(like >czar) to my untrained eye, but is probably closer to >Hungarian. The rest of the names are pretty >English-like I think. You mean it isn't pronounced exactly as written? If not, how is it pronounced? -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From toubib21 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 6 14:12:34 2003 From: toubib21 at yahoo.com (Toubib) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 14:12:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The title was originally "The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain" In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20031006160730.01dcc970@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <20031006211234.41135.qmail@web40101.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Peter H. Granzeau" wrote: > At 15:42 10/06/2003, Toubib wrote: > You mean it isn't pronounced exactly as written? If > not, how is it pronounced? > > > -- > Regards, Pete > pgranzeau at cox.net > >From the front of Jhereg Dzur is pronounced tser. Doc __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net Mon Oct 6 19:22:29 2003 From: Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net (Daemian Spayde) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 19:22:29 -0700 Subject: POLL: Who is she? References: Message-ID: <026a01c38c79$dc444920$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> In all honesty, I think another reason for the name change is that "Enchantress of Dzur Mountain" sounds WAY too much like too many other Fantasy books that are in the stores already. Besides, the book could be called "Paarfi's Scatological Culinary Cookbook of Doom" and I'd still go buy it. Daemian Spayde ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Silberstein" To: "Dragaera List" Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 11:50 AM Subject: Re: POLL: Who is she? > On Mon, 6 Oct 2003, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > > > > >Is this the cover of the next book in the current Paarfi series? I > >thought its title was going to be _The Sorceress of Dzur Mountain_. > > > > The title was originally "The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain". This was > changed, at the suggestion of Patrick Nielsen Hayden, by Steve. > > See (scroll down to the entry for: Tue Aug 13th, 2002 2:58 PM): > http://www.dreamcafe.com/weblog.cgi > > See also: > > http://dragaera.info/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?1:msp:1575:eciobmklmihbeejeejnm > > (and click through the thread, if you wish) > > Most of the people voicing an opinion here on the list liked the > original title better, but we are not the production staff of Tor. From Hereward at rogers.com Mon Oct 6 21:02:37 2003 From: Hereward at rogers.com (Gary Russell) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 00:02:37 -0400 Subject: POLL: Who is she? References: <026a01c38c79$dc444920$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> Message-ID: <003a01c38c87$d8718de0$6401a8c0@bloor.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> > Besides, the book could be called "Paarfi's Scatological Culinary Cookbook > of Doom" and I'd still go buy it. I'd *especially* buy that book. I'm just sayin'. Also, the person on the cover is the inestimable Clari. Regards, GR From casca913 at gbronline.com Mon Oct 6 22:47:59 2003 From: casca913 at gbronline.com (Charlie Smith) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 00:47:59 -0500 Subject: POLL: Who is she Message-ID: <002e01c38c96$92431a00$d6d2fdd8@pentium4> >In all honesty, I think another reason for the name change is that >"Enchantress of Dzur Mountain" sounds WAY too much like too many other >Fantasy books that are in the stores already. > >Besides, the book could be called "Paarfi's Scatological Culinary Cookbook >of Doom" and I'd still go buy it. > >Daemian Spayde Heh, Id probably be more inclined to buy it then. -- Charlie Smith e'Parrfi -- "Well?" said Adron, the Duke of Eastmanswatch. "I have not rebelled yet, and his Majesty may yet apologize." -- -- Year 532 of the Reign of Tortaalik the First, Phoenix Reign From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Oct 6 23:09:20 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 23:09:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: book by its In-Reply-To: <002e01c38c96$92431a00$d6d2fdd8@pentium4> References: <002e01c38c96$92431a00$d6d2fdd8@pentium4> Message-ID: Question for SKZB or the powers-at-Tor - any idea what the ratio of hmm-the-Zelazny-or-T.Williams-blurb-is-intriguing purchasers to us true-blue-buying-in-hardcover-months-early-from-Amazoners is? Naively I would think that the great unwashed wouldn't be picking up the third volume in a trilogy not having read the previous Paarfiad works, regardless of whether the title seemed exotic. - Philip From goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU Tue Oct 7 01:37:16 2003 From: goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (David Goldfarb) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 01:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The title was originally "The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain" Message-ID: <200310070837.h978bGR13205@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> From: "Peter H. Granzeau" >I guess naming a person in the title more matches one of the Dumas titles >(wasn't there one called "Louise de Lavallier", or something of that sort? Yes, _Louise de la Valliere_. -- David Goldfarb <*>| goldfarb at ocf.berkeley.edu | "It's flabby and delicious." goldfarb at csua.berkeley.edu | From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Tue Oct 7 10:47:03 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 17:47:03 +0000 Subject: POLL: Who is she Message-ID: >In all honesty, I think another reason for the name change is that >"Enchantress of Dzur Mountain" sounds WAY too much like too many other >Fantasy books that are in the stores already. I completely agree with that. In fact I prefer this kind of titles than those used in the former two volumes: I would have used Morrolan or Zerika for them, but it is just my opinion and I do not know anything about selling books, which is a quite honorable purpose into choosing titles. _________________________________________________________________ Descubre el mayor cat?logo de coches de la Red en MSN Motor. http://motor.msn.es/researchcentre/ From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Oct 7 14:10:05 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 14:10:05 -0700 Subject: book by its References: <002e01c38c96$92431a00$d6d2fdd8@pentium4> Message-ID: <006e01c38d17$61f7cd60$f700000a@steve> > Question for SKZB or the powers-at-Tor - any idea what the ratio of > hmm-the-Zelazny-or-T.Williams-blurb-is-intriguing purchasers to us > true-blue-buying-in-hardcover-months-early-from-Amazoners is? As I understand it, blurbs are less designed to appear to readers than to the buyers for various chains and major outlets. Er, if that doesn't answer your question, you'll have to rephrases it. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Oct 7 14:24:11 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 14:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: book by its In-Reply-To: <006e01c38d17$61f7cd60$f700000a@steve> References: <002e01c38c96$92431a00$d6d2fdd8@pentium4> <006e01c38d17$61f7cd60$f700000a@steve> Message-ID: Hi, what I meant was, Does the cover art/title/back cover matter for the third book of a trilogy? Will random people actually buy the book? I'm asking because I've been buying all your work since To Reign In Hell and tend not to read SF books unless the NYT or Tom Disch or someone of the stature of Gene Wolfe (in your case, Zelazny) says something is great. And though I enjoyed e.g. _TLoCB_ I wouldn't want readers unfamiliar with Dragaera to pick it up at random - the bookstores should instead be flooded with The Book of Jhereg and _TPG_ and _Agyar_ and _TRIH_. - Philip On Tue, 7 Oct 2003, Steven Brust wrote: > > > > Question for SKZB or the powers-at-Tor - any idea what the ratio of > > hmm-the-Zelazny-or-T.Williams-blurb-is-intriguing purchasers to us > > true-blue-buying-in-hardcover-months-early-from-Amazoners is? > > As I understand it, blurbs are less designed to appear to readers than to > the buyers for various chains and major outlets. Er, if that doesn't answer > your question, you'll have to rephrases it. > > > > From casey at the-bat.net Tue Oct 7 14:51:04 2003 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 17:51:04 -0400 Subject: book by its In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Steven Brust wrote: > As I understand it, blurbs are less designed to appear to > readers than to the buyers for various chains and major outlets. > Er, if that doesn't answer your question, you'll have to > rephrases it. to which Philip Hart replied: > Hi, what I meant was, Does the cover art/title/back cover matter for the > third book of a trilogy? Will random people actually buy the book? Ah, but it does not actually matter in the particular and immediate sense whether cover art/title/back cover will prompt random people to actually buy the book. The key consideration is whether said items are attractive to the big buyers who purchase tens or hundreds of thousands of copies of the book to be prominently displayed at all their chain stores, etc. So, if the cover art/title/back cover are of the sort that the buyers think will be appealing to the consumer, than it has done its primary job. To the left, if the covers for an author consistently caused these buyers to overpurchase, they would eventually change their 'taste'. Casey From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Oct 7 15:04:40 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 15:04:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: book by its In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Oct 2003, Casey Rousseau wrote: > Steven Brust wrote: > > As I understand it, blurbs are less designed to appear to > > readers than to the buyers for various chains and major outlets. > > Er, if that doesn't answer your question, you'll have to > > rephrases it. > > to which Philip Hart replied: > > Hi, what I meant was, Does the cover art/title/back cover matter for the > > third book of a trilogy? Will random people actually buy the book? > > Ah, but it does not actually matter in the particular and immediate sense > whether cover art/title/back cover will prompt random people to actually buy > the book. The key consideration is whether said items are attractive to the > big buyers who purchase tens or hundreds of thousands of copies of the book > to be prominently displayed at all their chain stores, etc. So, if the > cover art/title/back cover are of the sort that the buyers think will be > appealing to the consumer, than it has done its primary job. > > To the left, if the covers for an author consistently caused these buyers to > overpurchase, they would eventually change their 'taste'. > > Casey I'm not making my point very clearly. Once again - aren't the big buyers aware that this is book 3 of a trilogy or book 5 really or book 17 perhaps? Won't they be much more concerned with sales of books 1&2 and SKZB's track record? And isn't any residual concern with the packaging connected to the behaviour of individual purchasers, who I imagine will definitely buy the book upon seeing "Brust" on the cover if they read 1&2 but not otherwise. Certainly this cover wouldn't have moved me to buy the third book of a trilogy at random - the only cover art that might have done so was that of Heinlein's _Friday_ back when I was 13. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Oct 7 15:23:09 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 15:23:09 -0700 Subject: book by its References: <002e01c38c96$92431a00$d6d2fdd8@pentium4> <006e01c38d17$61f7cd60$f700000a@steve> Message-ID: <001901c38d21$97e21840$f700000a@steve> > Hi, what I meant was, Does the cover art/title/back cover matter for the > third book of a trilogy? Will random people actually buy the book? Oh. Well, it seems odd to me, but I'm told that, yes, they do. From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Tue Oct 7 15:27:12 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 15:27:12 -0700 Subject: book by its In-Reply-To: <001901c38d21$97e21840$f700000a@steve> References: <002e01c38c96$92431a00$d6d2fdd8@pentium4> <006e01c38d17$61f7cd60$f700000a@steve> <001901c38d21$97e21840$f700000a@steve> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 15:23:09 -0700, you wrote: > > >> Hi, what I meant was, Does the cover art/title/back cover matter for the >> third book of a trilogy? Will random people actually buy the book? > >Oh. Well, it seems odd to me, but I'm told that, yes, they do. When I went to see Return of the Jedi way back in the 80s, I caught it opening night. Stood in line for hours, etc. The elderly couple in front of me turned around and asked me what a "Jedi" was. They had no clue. Had never heard of Star Wars. When I asked why they were there, they said that they had heard this was the big film event of the year, so they thought they ought to see it. I dunno. -- laz I am the Dread Pirate Roberts #23546. Ask me about franchise opportunities! From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Oct 7 15:50:58 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 15:50:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: book by its Message-ID: <200310072250.h97Mowg11651@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Philip Hart wrote: > I'm not making my point very clearly. Once again - aren't the big buyers > aware that this is book 3 of a trilogy or book 5 really or book 17 > perhaps? Won't they be much more concerned with sales of books 1&2 and > SKZB's track record? And isn't any residual concern with the packaging > connected to the behaviour of individual purchasers, who I imagine will > definitely buy the book upon seeing "Brust" on the cover if they read 1&2 > but not otherwise. Certainly this cover wouldn't have moved me to buy the > third book of a trilogy at random - the only cover art that might have > done so was that of Heinlein's _Friday_ back when I was 13. It may seem like your theory would be the case, but if it were, we would never see trilogies in print, much less a series. Unless they reprinted books 1&2 along with 3. In the case of Brust's books, the idea rarely applies. One could pick up any of the Vlad books and read it, without ever having read the others, and not get lost. Granted, if a Brust-Fan-to-be picked up _Lord of Castle Black_, they might not have all of the information they *could* have if they'd have read _Viscount_, but thanks to the invention of the "literary summary" now found in many multi-volume works (for which, I think, Paarfi deserves sycophantic applause for the handling of *his* summary in _LoCB_:), it's often not required to have read the prior volume. Yes, the author's track record is of some consequence, certainly. But I think you will find that, overall, people will pick up a book because something on the outside caught their eye (author, title, cover art, whatever), read the blurbs and the back, flip through it and, if they like it, buy it. If it's #3 in a series (and the buyer even notices that fact. Heh), I suspect they'd look for #1 and go from there. Chris (Who didn't even get into a large, chain-store rant about buying tons of books and ... ahem. Isn't he polite?) "He is a lover of his country who rebukes and does not excuse its sins." - Frederick Douglass From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Oct 7 16:27:48 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 16:27:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: book by its In-Reply-To: <200310072250.h97Mowg11651@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200310072250.h97Mowg11651@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Oct 2003, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > Philip Hart wrote: > > I'm not making my point very clearly. Once again - aren't the big buyers > > aware that this is book 3 of a trilogy or book 5 really or book 17 > > perhaps? Won't they be much more concerned with sales of books 1&2 and > > SKZB's track record? And isn't any residual concern with the packaging > > connected to the behaviour of individual purchasers, who I imagine will > > definitely buy the book upon seeing "Brust" on the cover if they read 1&2 > > but not otherwise. Certainly this cover wouldn't have moved me to buy the > > third book of a trilogy at random - the only cover art that might have > > done so was that of Heinlein's _Friday_ back when I was 13. > > It may seem like your theory would be the case, but if > it were, we would never see trilogies in print, much less > a series. Unless they reprinted books 1&2 along with 3. What? I'm saying book 3 buyers are already hooked. Also I imagine when book n comes out book n-1 gets pushed too. As with the LoTR movies - this xmas they're showing all three. > > In the case of Brust's books, the idea rarely applies. > One could pick up any of the Vlad books and read it, without ever > having read the others, and not get lost. One wouldn't be lost, but a lot of the pleasure would be lost. I think _Taltos_, _Athyra_, _Orca_, _Phoenix_, etc would have been much less likely to hook me than the earlier novels, and might have left me with an "ehh, maybe I'll try some Yolen or Dean now" feeling. Not to imply I don't enjoy the later Vladiad as much as the beginning, I just think the later work dispenses with some of the short-term rewards needed as hooks to start series. > Granted, if a Brust-Fan-to-be picked up _Lord of Castle Black_, they > might not have all of the information they *could* have if they'd have > read _Viscount_, but thanks to the invention of the "literary summary" > now found in many multi-volume works (for which, I think, Paarfi > deserves sycophantic applause for the handling of *his* summary in > _LoCB_:), it's often not required to have read the prior volume. As an aside or an analogue or a contrast, my brother gave me Zindell's _The War in Heaven_ a while back. Lots of good blurbage - but it's #4 (or #3, depending on POV). I picked up a copy of _Neverness_ (#1) and found it to be a very strong first novel. Having a sense that the material was played out, I started lightly reading _TWiH_ to get a feel for the shape of the series, and found that it begins with a lengthy recap (a la the council of Elrond) of books 2&3, to the extent that I would have been very annoyed if I'd read the earlier volumes. In fact the book continues as a less-interesting rehash of the _Neverness_ material, and the main character has the most infuriating speaking style since, oh, Thomas Covenant. _Neverness_ however is well worth reading. From jedijane at yahoo.com Tue Oct 7 19:18:14 2003 From: jedijane at yahoo.com (Michelle Goepp) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 19:18:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: book by its In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031008021814.29594.qmail@web20006.mail.yahoo.com> > to which Philip Hart replied: > > Hi, what I meant was, Does the cover > art/title/back cover matter for the > > third book of a trilogy? Will random people > actually buy the book? --- Casey Rousseau wrote: > Ah, but it does not actually matter in the > particular and immediate sense > whether cover art/title/back cover will prompt > random people to actually buy > the book. I have to admit, I bought TPG because FHYA looked cool in the library but I didn't want to start with the second book. Then (of course) I liked it so much I ran out to buy FHYA myself. Which subsequently led me to dig up the Vladiad. There was also another series I picked up because the second book's cover had a really cool dragon I wanted to find out more about. Alas, it was a bit player. ~M ===== Michelle "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue Oct 7 19:26:41 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 19:26:41 -0700 Subject: book by its In-Reply-To: <001901c38d21$97e21840$f700000a@steve> References: <002e01c38c96$92431a00$d6d2fdd8@pentium4> <006e01c38d17$61f7cd60$f700000a@steve> <001901c38d21$97e21840$f700000a@steve> Message-ID: <20031008022641.GA12319@ofb.net> On Tue, Oct 07, 2003 at 03:23:09PM -0700, Steven Brust wrote: > > > Hi, what I meant was, Does the cover art/title/back cover matter for the > > third book of a trilogy? Will random people actually buy the book? > > Oh. Well, it seems odd to me, but I'm told that, yes, they do. I started with _Phoenix_, although that's not a tight-trilogy situation. Except insofar as it is a sequel to _Teckla_, but the book cover certainly gave me no warning. I think I got properly hooked when I realized that this Brust guy had also written that _To Reign in Hell_ book I'd gotten a kick out of back when I wasn't paying attention to the authors of books. -xx- Damien X-) From casca913 at gbronline.com Tue Oct 7 22:42:48 2003 From: casca913 at gbronline.com (Charlie Smith) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 00:42:48 -0500 Subject: Vlad Taltos: Casting Call Message-ID: <00b601c38d5f$022ba490$87d1fdd8@pentium4> I was reading a conversation in an anime newsgroup in which they were debating who they would cast in a live action version of some cartoon that I had never heard of before. This has absolutely nothing to do this group but it did get me to think in a vein that I hadn't explored myself. It might have been talked about already but who would you cast for a movie of the Vlad Taltos series? This is a scary topic because I couldn't see hollywood EVER doing justice to such a movie but as an excercise of speculation. . . Well it is good to dream or Loiosh getting his big break on the silver screen. :P Also, with the discussion of the Sethra "picture" it begs the question. . . how could anyone have enough presence for play the Enchantress of Dzur Mountain; The Wield of the great weapon, Iceflame; The debater of the great Hissy-Cow?!? Just food for thought... I hope it doesn't erupt into an "How could you ever think that!" sort of thing. -- Charlie Smith e'Paarfi -- "Shut up Loiosh." -- Vlad Taltos, How to train a familiar and influence people From rickc at silcom.com Tue Oct 7 23:47:11 2003 From: rickc at silcom.com (Richard Cunningham) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 23:47:11 -0700 Subject: Vlad Taltos: Casting Call In-Reply-To: <00b601c38d5f$022ba490$87d1fdd8@pentium4> Message-ID: Well, to put aside casting Vlad's realm, I did notice that as I was re-reading _To Reign In Hell_ last week that about halfway through I realized Mephistopheles was forming fully in my mind as Ed Wasser. -----Original Message----- From: Charlie Smith [mailto:casca913 at gbronline.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 10:43 PM To: Dragarean Email Group Subject: Vlad Taltos: Casting Call I was reading a conversation in an anime newsgroup in which they were debating who they would cast in a live action version of some cartoon that I had never heard of before. This has absolutely nothing to do this group but it did get me to think in a vein that I hadn't explored myself. It might have been talked about already but who would you cast for a movie of the Vlad Taltos series? This is a scary topic because I couldn't see hollywood EVER doing justice to such a movie but as an excercise of speculation. . . Well it is good to dream or Loiosh getting his big break on the silver screen. :P Also, with the discussion of the Sethra "picture" it begs the question. . . how could anyone have enough presence for play the Enchantress of Dzur Mountain; The Wield of the great weapon, Iceflame; The debater of the great Hissy-Cow?!? Just food for thought... I hope it doesn't erupt into an "How could you ever think that!" sort of thing. -- Charlie Smith e'Paarfi -- "Shut up Loiosh." -- Vlad Taltos, How to train a familiar and influence people --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.522 / Virus Database: 320 - Release Date: 9/29/2003 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.522 / Virus Database: 320 - Release Date: 9/29/2003 From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Wed Oct 8 00:57:34 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 07:57:34 +0000 Subject: Vlad Taltos: Casting Call Message-ID: "Charlie Smith" WROTE: > It might have been talked about already but who would you cast for a >movie of the Vlad Taltos series? > >This is a scary topic because I couldn't see hollywood EVER doing justice >to such a movie but as an excercise of speculation. . . Well it is good to >dream or Loiosh getting his big break on the silver screen. :P Some years ago I would have agreed with you, but once I?ve watched The Lord of the Rings I have realized that it is posible not just to do a good movie >from a great book, but to do a great movie respecting the book. Who would be Sticks? Iv?n. _________________________________________________________________ Localiza y ponte en contacto con tus antiguos compa?eros de clase en MSN Compa?eros. http://mipasado.msn.es/ From gcanyon at inspiredlogic.com Wed Oct 8 01:52:07 2003 From: gcanyon at inspiredlogic.com (Geoff Canyon) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 01:52:07 -0700 Subject: book by its In-Reply-To: <001901c38d21$97e21840$f700000a@steve> Message-ID: On Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 03:23 PM, Steven Brust wrote: >> Hi, what I meant was, Does the cover art/title/back cover matter for >> the >> third book of a trilogy? Will random people actually buy the book? > > Oh. Well, it seems odd to me, but I'm told that, yes, they do. A long time ago, my sister bought me the second book of a trilogy for my birthday, not realizing that it was the second (or even that it was part of a series). I read it despite the fact that I hadn't read the first book, or any book by the author, because we were away for the weekend and I had nothing else to read. I'm certainly glad she managed to introduce me to John Varley. By the way, I highly recommend John Varley ;-) regards, Geoff Canyon gcanyon at inspiredlogic.com From bio_phy at hotmail.com Wed Oct 8 07:31:09 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 09:31:09 -0500 Subject: Vlad Taltos: Casting Call Message-ID: I had suggested awhile back that I thought that Johnny Depp might be a great choice. He can be clever, tortured, merciless, comic, and (most of all) smart, all without saying a word. He's an understated, under-rated actor who just now seems to be getting his due. I think the best thing about him is that you get the feeling that you never really know exactly what he's thinking. That air of "wheels within wheels" would work well for Vlad, imo. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ "Almost any act of (creative) expression is an act of courage. Whenever you write (something) and you show it to someone else, it's an act of courage because it's your life, it's who you are and you're laying it out on the table and you're either going to be rejected or accepted." Terry Scott Taylor >From: "Charlie Smith" >To: "Dragarean Email Group" >Subject: Vlad Taltos: Casting Call >Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 00:42:48 -0500 > >I was reading a conversation in an anime newsgroup in which they were >debating who they would cast in a live action version of some cartoon that >I had never heard of before. This has absolutely nothing to do this group >but it did get me to think in a vein that I hadn't explored myself. It >might have been talked about already but who would you cast for a movie of >the Vlad Taltos series? > >This is a scary topic because I couldn't see hollywood EVER doing justice >to such a movie but as an excercise of speculation. . . Well it is good to >dream or Loiosh getting his big break on the silver screen. :P > >Also, with the discussion of the Sethra "picture" it begs the question. . . >how could anyone have enough presence for play the Enchantress of Dzur >Mountain; The Wield of the great weapon, Iceflame; The debater of the >great Hissy-Cow?!? > >Just food for thought... I hope it doesn't erupt into an "How could you >ever think that!" sort of thing. > > >-- Charlie Smith e'Paarfi >-- "Shut up Loiosh." >-- Vlad Taltos, How to train a familiar and influence people _________________________________________________________________ Instant message with integrated webcam using MSN Messenger 6.0. Try it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Wed Oct 8 08:02:32 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 08:02:32 -0700 Subject: Vlad Taltos: Casting Call In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 09:31:09 -0500, you wrote: >choice. He can be clever, tortured, merciless, comic, and (most of all) >smart, all without saying a word. He's an understated, under-rated actor >who just now seems to be getting his due. I think the best thing about him >is that you get the feeling that you never really know exactly what he's >thinking. That air of "wheels within wheels" would work well for Vlad, imo. All I know is, Ed Harris has to play Adron. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From zarkon at ueno.bdi.com Wed Oct 8 08:04:06 2003 From: zarkon at ueno.bdi.com (John Klein) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 11:04:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Vlad Taltos: Casting Call In-Reply-To: <00b601c38d5f$022ba490$87d1fdd8@pentium4> References: <00b601c38d5f$022ba490$87d1fdd8@pentium4> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Oct 2003, Charlie Smith wrote: @> I was reading a conversation in an anime newsgroup in which they were @> debating who they would cast in a live action version of some cartoon @> that I had never heard of before. This has absolutely nothing to do @> this group but it did get me to think in a vein that I hadn't explored @> myself. It might have been talked about already but who would you cast @> for a movie of the Vlad Taltos series? I sometimes think that in the smoking ruins of America left behind after the next apocalyptic war, as the mutants and humans struggle for survival in a hellish nightmare world with tooth, nail, and gun, a small group of them will occasionally congregate and discuss whether Turkuts the Annihiliator or Emal, Devourer of Eyes, should play Vlad in the shadow-puppet version of the charred remnants of their only copy of Yendi. Just saying. From warlord at dragon.com Wed Oct 8 08:04:05 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 11:04:05 -0400 Subject: Vlad Taltos: Casting Call In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: lazarus [mailto:lazarus33pjf at cox.net] > Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 11:03 AM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Vlad Taltos: Casting Call > > > On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 09:31:09 -0500, you wrote: > > >choice. He can be clever, tortured, merciless, comic, and (most of all) > >smart, all without saying a word. He's an understated, > under-rated actor > >who just now seems to be getting his due. I think the best > thing about him > >is that you get the feeling that you never really know exactly what he's > >thinking. That air of "wheels within wheels" would work well > for Vlad, imo. > > All I know is, Ed Harris has to play Adron. > > Alicia Silverstone for Aleira (hey, she did batgirl with distinction, right?) W From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Wed Oct 8 08:07:49 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 08:07:49 -0700 Subject: Vlad Taltos: Casting Call In-Reply-To: References: <00b601c38d5f$022ba490$87d1fdd8@pentium4> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Oct 2003 11:04:06 -0400 (EDT), you wrote: >On Wed, 8 Oct 2003, Charlie Smith wrote: > >@> I was reading a conversation in an anime newsgroup in which they were >@> debating who they would cast in a live action version of some cartoon >@> that I had never heard of before. This has absolutely nothing to do >@> this group but it did get me to think in a vein that I hadn't explored >@> myself. It might have been talked about already but who would you cast >@> for a movie of the Vlad Taltos series? > >I sometimes think that in the smoking ruins of America left behind after >the next apocalyptic war, as the mutants and humans struggle for survival >in a hellish nightmare world with tooth, nail, and gun, a small group >of them will occasionally congregate and discuss whether Turkuts the >Annihiliator or Emal, Devourer of Eyes, should play Vlad in the >shadow-puppet version of the charred remnants of their only copy of Yendi. > >Just saying. I vote Emal, Devourer of Eyes. Just a personal preference. -- lazarus "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien From bio_phy at hotmail.com Wed Oct 8 08:13:27 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 10:13:27 -0500 Subject: Vlad Taltos: Casting Call Message-ID: Phil Hartman *has* to plain Kragar. It's a no-brainer. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ "Almost any act of (creative) expression is an act of courage. Whenever you write (something) and you show it to someone else, it's an act of courage because it's your life, it's who you are and you're laying it out on the table and you're either going to be rejected or accepted." Terry Scott Taylor >I vote Emal, Devourer of Eyes. Just a personal preference. > > >-- > >lazarus > >"Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power >of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that >divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien _________________________________________________________________ Frustrated with dial-up? Get high-speed for as low as $29.95/month (depending on the local service providers in your area). https://broadband.msn.com From jalipaz at stanford.edu Wed Oct 8 08:19:33 2003 From: jalipaz at stanford.edu (Julie Alipaz) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 08:19:33 -0700 Subject: Vlad Taltos: Casting Call Message-ID: >I was reading a conversation in an anime newsgroup in which they >were debating who they would cast in a live action version of some >cartoon that I had never heard of before. This has absolutely >nothing to do this group but it did get me to think in a vein that I >hadn't explored myself. It might have been talked about already but >who would you cast for a movie of the Vlad Taltos series? > nooooo please not again..... From dacileva at hotmail.com Wed Oct 8 08:32:25 2003 From: dacileva at hotmail.com (Nik Landauer) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 11:32:25 -0400 Subject: Vlad Taltos: Casting Call Message-ID: "Richard Cunningham" wrote: > >Well, to put aside casting Vlad's realm, I did notice that as I was >re-reading _To Reign In Hell_ last week that about halfway through I >realized Mephistopheles was forming fully in my mind as Ed Wasser. You could still bring this back to casting the Vladiad... I think Ed Wasser would do very well as The Demon. -- Nik ( Shori / Dacileva ) "Tolkien often takes us to the edge of the abyss, then points out a nice tea shop half way down" - Michael Moorcock, possibly apocryphal _________________________________________________________________ Share your photos without swamping your Inbox. Get Hotmail Extra Storage today! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es From zarkon at ueno.bdi.com Wed Oct 8 08:38:01 2003 From: zarkon at ueno.bdi.com (John Klein) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 11:38:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Vlad Taltos: Casting Call In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Oct 2003, Nik Landauer wrote: @> >Well, to put aside casting Vlad's realm, I did notice that as I was @> >re-reading _To Reign In Hell_ last week that about halfway through I @> >realized Mephistopheles was forming fully in my mind as Ed Wasser. @> @> You could still bring this back to casting the Vladiad... I think Ed Wasser @> would do very well as The Demon. "So, Vlad, what do you want?" "Well, I'd like to have a quiet dinner, actually." "What do you want?" "About a hundred years of sleep." "What do you want?" "It'd be nice if I could stop running for my life." "But what do you want?" "Here, let me show you." [Sound of Ed Wasser being stabbed in the eye.] From frank at exit.com Wed Oct 8 08:44:54 2003 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 08:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vlad Taltos: Casting Call In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200310081544.h98FisIZ088079@realtime.exit.com> John Klein wrote: > "So, Vlad, what do you want?" > > "Well, I'd like to have a quiet dinner, actually." > > "What do you want?" > > "About a hundred years of sleep." > > "What do you want?" > > "It'd be nice if I could stop running for my life." > > "But what do you want?" > > "Here, let me show you." > > [Sound of Ed Wasser being stabbed in the eye.] I still don't think it would remove that chilling smile from his face. (I'll bet that he still had that smile when his head was on a pole outside the Centauri palace. :-/) -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From greatcthulhu1 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 8 08:39:20 2003 From: greatcthulhu1 at yahoo.com (Oscar Rios) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 08:39:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vlad Taltos: Casting Call In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031008153920.29307.qmail@web41902.mail.yahoo.com> That would be great! Except that he's dead. Johne Cook wrote:Phil Hartman *has* to plain Kragar. It's a no-brainer. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ "Almost any act of (creative) expression is an act of courage. Whenever you write (something) and you show it to someone else, it's an act of courage because it's your life, it's who you are and you're laying it out on the table and you're either going to be rejected or accepted." Terry Scott Taylor >I vote Emal, Devourer of Eyes. Just a personal preference. > > >-- > >lazarus > >"Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed, in nothing is the power >of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that >divides all those who still oppose him." -- J.R.R. Tolkien _________________________________________________________________ Frustrated with dial-up? Get high-speed for as low as $29.95/month (depending on the local service providers in your area). https://broadband.msn.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search From bio_phy at hotmail.com Wed Oct 8 10:54:44 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 12:54:44 -0500 Subject: Vlad Taltos: Casting Call Message-ID: ...and hence, perfect for the role of Kragar. ;) (Think about it for a moment. You'll get it.) johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa >That would be great! Except that he's dead. > >Johne Cook wrote:Phil Hartman *has* to pla(y) Kragar. >It's a no-brainer. _________________________________________________________________ Instant message during games with MSN Messenger 6.0. Download it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com From usagigoya at hotmail.com Wed Oct 8 13:43:38 2003 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 20:43:38 +0000 Subject: book by its Message-ID: I don't know what the ratio between "new" blurb is intriguing readers and "continuing" true-blue-buying-in-hardcover-months-early-from-Amazoners (I assume that is what you meant, since I prefer to support my local bookstores). I can say that the blurb by Roger Zelazny was a large influence on my buying Jhereg, Yendi and To Reign In Hell way back in the early eighties. Zelazny's blurbs also influenced me to try Sheri Tepper's first book King's Blood Four (and sequels). I loved the Stephen Hickman covers on Jhereg and Yendi and have to admit that they also were a large influence. Back then, I think cover art was very influental in trying new authors. (I still love the cover art being selected for each new Vlad Taltos book.) Now-a-days, there are so many new authors out there all writing similar stuff and all sporting similar looking cover art that it is hard to choose what to try. An author whom you like recommending a new or previously unknown author is STILL helpful in making a choice. >From: "Steven Brust" >To: "Philip Hart" , "Dragarea" > >Subject: Re: book by its >Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 14:10:05 -0700 > > > > > Question for SKZB or the powers-at-Tor - any idea what the ratio of > > hmm-the-Zelazny-or-T.Williams-blurb-is-intriguing purchasers to us > > true-blue-buying-in-hardcover-months-early-from-Amazoners is? > >As I understand it, blurbs are less designed to appear to readers than to >the buyers for various chains and major outlets. Er, if that doesn't >answer >your question, you'll have to rephrases it. > > > _________________________________________________________________ Instant message in style with MSN Messenger 6.0. Download it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com From bio_phy at hotmail.com Wed Oct 8 14:13:19 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 16:13:19 -0500 Subject: book by its Message-ID: I bought Jhereg because it had a cool cover art and even cooler first person writing. It felt like fantasy film noir in a sci-fi environment and I knew within moments that I was going to love it, and I did. (I liked Yendi, too, but I didn't walk in with any preconceptions for it. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ "Almost any act of (creative) expression is an act of courage. Whenever you write (something) and you show it to someone else, it's an act of courage because it's your life, it's who you are and you're laying it out on the table and you're either going to be rejected or accepted." Terry Scott Taylor >From: "Steve Hubbell" >To: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: book by its >Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 20:43:38 +0000 > >I don't know what the ratio between "new" blurb is intriguing readers and >"continuing" true-blue-buying-in-hardcover-months-early-from-Amazoners (I >assume that is what you meant, since I prefer to support my local >bookstores). > >I can say that the blurb by Roger Zelazny was a large influence on my >buying Jhereg, Yendi and To Reign In Hell way back in the early eighties. >Zelazny's blurbs also influenced me to try Sheri Tepper's first book King's >Blood Four (and sequels). > >I loved the Stephen Hickman covers on Jhereg and Yendi and have to admit >that they also were a large influence. Back then, I think cover art was >very influental in trying new authors. (I still love the cover art being >selected for each new Vlad Taltos book.) > >Now-a-days, there are so many new authors out there all writing similar >stuff and all sporting similar looking cover art that it is hard to choose >what to try. An author whom you like recommending a new or previously >unknown author is STILL helpful in making a choice. > >>From: "Steven Brust" >>To: "Philip Hart" , "Dragarea" >> >>Subject: Re: book by its >>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 14:10:05 -0700 >> >> >> >> > Question for SKZB or the powers-at-Tor - any idea what the ratio of >> > hmm-the-Zelazny-or-T.Williams-blurb-is-intriguing purchasers to us >> > true-blue-buying-in-hardcover-months-early-from-Amazoners is? >> >>As I understand it, blurbs are less designed to appear to readers than to >>the buyers for various chains and major outlets. Er, if that doesn't >>answer >>your question, you'll have to rephrases it. >> >> >> > >_________________________________________________________________ >Instant message in style with MSN Messenger 6.0. Download it now FREE! >http://msnmessenger-download.com > _________________________________________________________________ Get MSN 8 Dial-up Internet Service FREE for one month. Limited time offer-- sign up now! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup From dusty at sayersnet.com Wed Oct 8 14:47:20 2003 From: dusty at sayersnet.com (J A 'Dusty' Sayers) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 17:47:20 -0400 Subject: book by its In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F8485E8.4050208@sayersnet.com> In general response to the discussion about the importance of cover art, I only discovered Brust because a friend of mine recommended his work to me. He knew about him because his younger brother had picked up a copy of Phoenix in the bookstore when it was new (which also tells, more or less, how long I've been reading Brust). Kid brother's rationale? 'The cover looked cool.' I doubt covers are terribly important to continuing buyers, but they have to be for first-timers, I would think. Even now, on the rare occasion when I try a new author without some other recommendation, it's usually because the cover looked intriguing in some way. Otherwise, I wouldn't look at the blurb or flip through the opening chapter, or anything else. All that said, I'm not wild about the cover art for Sethra Lavode. But then again, I'm neither an artist or a marketer. -- J A Dusty Sayers 'Creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for those desires exists. A baby feels hunger: well, there is such a thing as food. A duckling wants to swim: well, there is such a thing as water. Men feel sexual desire: well, there is such a thing as sex. If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world.' --C S Lewis From bonham15 at cox.net Wed Oct 8 17:37:57 2003 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 19:37:57 -0500 Subject: Vlad Taltos: Casting Call References: Message-ID: <001201c38dfd$95d34880$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> willem dafoe should be sticks... if he couldn't do a jhereg sneer and have eyes that light up when he's whacking the snot outta someone, i dunno who wo uld. andy > > > "Charlie Smith" WROTE: > > > It might have been talked about already but who would you cast for a > >movie of the Vlad Taltos series? > > > >This is a scary topic because I couldn't see hollywood EVER doing justice > >to such a movie but as an excercise of speculation. . . Well it is good to > >dream or Loiosh getting his big break on the silver screen. :P > > Some years ago I would have agreed with you, but once I?ve watched The Lord > of the Rings I have realized that it is posible not just to do a good movie > from a great book, but to do a great movie respecting the book. > > Who would be Sticks? > > Iv?n. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Localiza y ponte en contacto con tus antiguos compa?eros de clase en MSN > Compa?eros. http://mipasado.msn.es/ > From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Thu Oct 9 00:23:38 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 07:23:38 +0000 Subject: Vlad Taltos: Casting Call Message-ID: Andy "bonham15" wrote: > >willem dafoe should be sticks... if he couldn't do a jhereg sneer and have >eyes that light up when he's whacking the snot outta someone, i dunno who >wo >uld. > >andy > I was thinking in John Malkovich, but Dafoe may also fit. _________________________________________________________________ Dale vida a tu correo. Con MSN 8 podr?s incluir fotos y textos increibles. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=es-es&XAPID=517&DI=1055 From mam at theworld.com Thu Oct 9 05:52:48 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 08:52:48 -0400 Subject: cracksandshards.com ! Message-ID: My Dragaera website, Cracks and Shards, finally has its own domain: cracksandshards.com. Please start using cracksandshards.com to access the site, starting immediately. I will maintain the current location for at least the next few months; but for several reasons, including moving out of state, I may change my hosting site, so I can't guarantee it in the long term. But wherever Cracks and Shards is hosted, cracksandshards.com will take you there. As I settle in from my move, I expect to find the time to bring Cracks and Shards up to date. I apologize to those of you who receive multiple copies of this message. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From TimN at rcn.com Thu Oct 9 07:23:19 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 10:23:19 -0400 Subject: Vlad Taltos: Casting Call References: <200310081544.h98FisIZ088079@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: <002101c38e70$e3f56f20$d916fea9@ananda> Oh my god. THAT Ed Wasser. Ok, I agree....perfect Demon. So long as nobody...yknow...waves at him... ----- Original Message ----- From: Frank Mayhar To: John Klein Cc: Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 11:44 AM Subject: Re: Vlad Taltos: Casting Call > John Klein wrote: > > "So, Vlad, what do you want?" > > > > "Well, I'd like to have a quiet dinner, actually." > > > > "What do you want?" > > > > "About a hundred years of sleep." > > > > "What do you want?" > > > > "It'd be nice if I could stop running for my life." > > > > "But what do you want?" > > > > "Here, let me show you." > > > > [Sound of Ed Wasser being stabbed in the eye.] > > I still don't think it would remove that chilling smile from his face. > > (I'll bet that he still had that smile when his head was on a pole outside > the Centauri palace. :-/) > -- > Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ > Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ > http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From warlord at dragon.com Thu Oct 9 07:35:16 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 10:35:16 -0400 Subject: Opinion vs. Criticism ( was: RE: book by its ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Excuse me for a second while I go off the deep end -- < rant > Like so many other things in this universe that is laughing behind my back, I have an opinion on the book cover. I do think the cover could be more true to the words; however, I DO NOT think it is bad. On blurbs, I believe that it should be either an excerpt or an accurate synopsis of the book as a whole. There is a difference between having an opinion and commenting on something, and CRITICIZING someones effort(s). People should only criticize if they can do better. Let me make my position clear: critics should have a nice cup of STFU until they can justify their existance by doing more than knocking down the accomplishments of others. < /rant > Ok, I'm done. We now return you to our regular program, "Who is Mario this Week" Warlord "Definition of a critic: one who comes down out of the mountain, after the war is over, and shoots the dead." > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Hubbell [mailto:usagigoya at hotmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 4:44 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: book by its > > > I don't know what the ratio between "new" blurb is intriguing readers and > "continuing" true-blue-buying-in-hardcover-months-early-from-Amazoners (I > assume that is what you meant, since I prefer to support my local > bookstores). > > I can say that the blurb by Roger Zelazny was a large influence > on my buying > Jhereg, Yendi and To Reign In Hell way back in the early > eighties. Zelazny's > blurbs also influenced me to try Sheri Tepper's first book King's > Blood Four > (and sequels). > > I loved the Stephen Hickman covers on Jhereg and Yendi and have to admit > that they also were a large influence. Back then, I think cover > art was very > influental in trying new authors. (I still love the cover art > being selected > for each new Vlad Taltos book.) > > Now-a-days, there are so many new authors out there all writing similar > stuff and all sporting similar looking cover art that it is hard > to choose > what to try. An author whom you like recommending a new or previously > unknown author is STILL helpful in making a choice. > > >From: "Steven Brust" > >To: "Philip Hart" , "Dragarea" > > > >Subject: Re: book by its > >Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 14:10:05 -0700 > > > > > > > > > Question for SKZB or the powers-at-Tor - any idea what the ratio of > > > hmm-the-Zelazny-or-T.Williams-blurb-is-intriguing purchasers to us > > > true-blue-buying-in-hardcover-months-early-from-Amazoners is? > > > >As I understand it, blurbs are less designed to appear to readers than to > >the buyers for various chains and major outlets. Er, if that doesn't > >answer > >your question, you'll have to rephrases it. > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Instant message in style with MSN Messenger 6.0. Download it now FREE! > http://msnmessenger-download.com > > > From warlord at dragon.com Thu Oct 9 07:41:16 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 10:41:16 -0400 Subject: cracksandshards.com ! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark, the easiest way to do this is to have your provider modify the DNS zone file so that it points to the new domain name. This way, anyone going to the old site is automagically redirected to the new site and you do not have to maintain more than the new one. W > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark A Mandel [mailto:mam at theworld.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 8:53 AM > To: brustlists; dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: cracksandshards.com ! > > > My Dragaera website, Cracks and Shards, finally has its own domain: > cracksandshards.com. Please start using cracksandshards.com to access > the site, starting immediately. > > I will maintain the current location for at least the next few months; > but for several reasons, including moving out of state, I may change my > hosting site, so I can't guarantee it in the long term. But wherever > Cracks and Shards is hosted, cracksandshards.com will take you there. > > As I settle in from my move, I expect to find the time to bring Cracks > and Shards up to date. > > I apologize to those of you who receive multiple copies of this message. > > -- Mark A. Mandel > http://cracksandshards.com > a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website > > > > From zarkon at ueno.bdi.com Thu Oct 9 07:42:58 2003 From: zarkon at ueno.bdi.com (John Klein) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 10:42:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Opinion vs. Criticism ( was: RE: book by its ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Oct 2003, Warlord wrote: @> People should only criticize if they can do better. If my doctor removed my appendix and acidentally cut out half of my intestine as well, I'd feel quite qualified to criticize him, despite the fact that I would probably do it worse. @> There is a difference between having an opinion and commenting on @> something, and CRITICIZING someones effort(s). I'm curious as to exactly what this difference is. Either you're saying something positive about something, in which case you're complimenting it, or you're saying something negative, in which case you're criticizing it. The latter is as useful and necessary as the former is. From warlord at dragon.com Thu Oct 9 08:07:03 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 11:07:03 -0400 Subject: Opinion vs. Criticism ( was: RE: book by its ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Good points. I'll go along with being an injured party grants you certain rights to criticize. But then, you paid for that priviledge. Steve, for example, has the right to criticize any artwork that he (or through Tor) contracts. As far as the difference between a comment and criticism, I fall back on example: Comment: I like (or dislike) that piece of art work. I think it would look better with more lighter hues. Criticism: That sucks, and the artist should stick to cartoons. One is an opinion, and the other knocks down someone elses work. Yes, I know I didn't have to add the insult in there, but go read, oh....a book or movie review, and see the critic tear down the participants as well as the creator of the work. I do understand the difference between criticism and critical review, and perhaps I am just being jaded by the unnecessary personal attacks that seem to go hand in hand with such prevelent commentary. I *said* it was a rant. :) W > -----Original Message----- > From: John Klein [mailto:zarkon at ueno.bdi.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 10:43 AM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Opinion vs. Criticism ( was: RE: book by its ) > > > On Thu, 9 Oct 2003, Warlord wrote: > > @> People should only criticize if they can do better. > > If my doctor removed my appendix and acidentally cut out half of my > intestine as well, I'd feel quite qualified to criticize him, despite the > fact that I would probably do it worse. > > @> There is a difference between having an opinion and commenting on > @> something, and CRITICIZING someones effort(s). > > I'm curious as to exactly what this difference is. Either you're saying > something positive about something, in which case you're complimenting it, > or you're saying something negative, in which case you're criticizing it. > The latter is as useful and necessary as the former is. > > From greyw01f at hotmail.com Thu Oct 9 09:00:41 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 16:00:41 +0000 Subject: Opinion vs. Criticism ( was: RE: book by its ) Message-ID: One can easily have innate aesthetic sense without having practical ability sufficient to the task. Otherwise, how can analysis of any work occur? Critique is just a form of analysis, after all. Just because the rock was thrown by a country bumpkin doesn't mean it can't kill Goliath--as he didn't really find out, seeing as how he apparently died before he knew what hit him :P Jon _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From warlord at dragon.com Thu Oct 9 09:12:44 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 12:12:44 -0400 Subject: Opinion vs. Criticism ( was: RE: book by its ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One can easily express that aesthetic sense without being scathing about it. the difference is in being helpful and being nasty. I object to the latter who can't do any better. W > -----Original Message----- > From: Jon Carey [mailto:greyw01f at hotmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 12:01 PM > To: Dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Opinion vs. Criticism ( was: RE: book by its ) > > > > One can easily have innate aesthetic sense without having > practical ability > sufficient to the task. Otherwise, how can analysis of any work occur? > Critique is just a form of analysis, after all. Just because the > rock was > thrown by a country bumpkin doesn't mean it can't kill > Goliath--as he didn't > really find out, seeing as how he apparently died before he knew what hit > him :P > > > Jon > > _________________________________________________________________ > Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > > From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Oct 9 09:28:57 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 09 Oct 2003 11:28:57 -0500 Subject: Opinion vs. Criticism ( was: RE: book by its ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Warlord" writes: > Good points. I'll go along with being an injured party grants > you certain rights to criticize. But then, you paid for that > priviledge. Steve, for example, has the right to criticize > any artwork that he (or through Tor) contracts. > > As far as the difference between a comment and criticism, I > fall back on example: > > Comment: I like (or dislike) that piece of art work. I think > it would look better with more lighter hues. > > Criticism: That sucks, and the artist should stick to cartoons. Hmmm; I'd call the first criticism, and the second "attack". And an explicit attack on the creator as well as on the work. Anyway I agree that the second doesn't serve much purpose. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera mailing lists: From yaga at berkano.pair.com Thu Oct 9 10:26:51 2003 From: yaga at berkano.pair.com (yaga at berkano.pair.com) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 13:26:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Opinion vs. Criticism ( was: RE: book by its ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031009172651.45067.qmail@berkano.pair.com> Criticism is not a binary circumstance. While there is certainly constructive criticism and derisive criticism, so to is there merely being critical of something with no intent either to aid or hamper whatever efforts are being spoken of: Constructive : "X sucks because you used too much Y" Derisive : "X sucks because you're stupid" Neither : "X sucks." While the third example is largely opinion, so too is all form of criticism no more or less than one's expressed opinion. Not that any such opinion is _right_ merely because it is expressed, but neither is it wrong for the same reason. Being critical of something is the perogative of anyone and everyone; one does not need the "right" to be critical bequeathed upon them by some third party. Such severity of limitation on one's ability to exercise their thoughts and opinions is nigh upon tyranny, insomuch as it is the arbitrary restriction of what would then become the privelidge of the few. While "tyranny" may be a strong word, it is correct in at least the classic sense; "I have sworn...eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" -- Thomas Jefferson. Ultimately, people at Tor who make it their business to get people to buy books (and hopefully read them) have their own opinions about how this should best be gone about. Our criticisms of their practices and choices vary from one end of the spectrum to the other no doubt, but I believe we should all keep in mind that we are, in the end, dealing with people in Marketing and Business Development. Having been in that field, I feel I can safely say that the only form of criticism that is at all heeded is market share and return-on-investment. As such, the only way you and I can truely affect their choices in the future is to not buy what we don't like, and buy more of what we do. Hopefully my comments here have been constructive; if not, I apologize, because that was my hope. Sincerely, Peter / Yaga > "Warlord" writes: > > > Good points. I'll go along with being an injured party grants > > you certain rights to criticize. But then, you paid for that > > priviledge. Steve, for example, has the right to criticize > > any artwork that he (or through Tor) contracts. > > > > As far as the difference between a comment and criticism, I > > fall back on example: > > > > Comment: I like (or dislike) that piece of art work. I think > > it would look better with more lighter hues. > > > > Criticism: That sucks, and the artist should stick to cartoons. > > Hmmm; I'd call the first criticism, and the second "attack". And an > explicit attack on the creator as well as on the work. > > Anyway I agree that the second doesn't serve much purpose. > -- > David Dyer-Bennet, , > RKBA: > Photos: Snapshots: > Dragaera mailing lists: > From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Oct 9 10:46:54 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 10:46:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT - a famous book review In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030820120140.00ac0448@camail2.harvard.edu> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030820120140.00ac0448@camail2.harvard.edu> Message-ID: http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/books/hst/european/CriticalandHistoricalEssaysVolume2/chap46.html Has some (well, lots of) prePaarfian prose, some comments on criticism, and the destruction of a leading poetaster. From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Thu Oct 9 10:56:13 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 17:56:13 +0000 Subject: Opinion vs. Criticism ( was: RE: book by its ) Message-ID: >From: "Warlord" >Ok, I'm done. We now return you to our >regular program, "Who is Mario this Week" > >Warlord Fine, I think Mario is Ed Wasser. _________________________________________________________________ Pol?tica, internacional, econom?a, deportes... inf?rmate con MSN Actualidad. http://www.msn.es/Actualidad/ From yaga at berkano.pair.com Thu Oct 9 10:59:03 2003 From: yaga at berkano.pair.com (yaga at berkano.pair.com) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 13:59:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Who is Marion this Week (was many things to many people) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031009175903.62582.qmail@berkano.pair.com> > >From: "Warlord" > > >Ok, I'm done. We now return you to our > >regular program, "Who is Mario this Week" > > > >Warlord > > Fine, I think Mario is Ed Wasser. > Oooh! Loish! After all, what's to keep a Jhereg from reincarnating as a jhereg? ;) From toubib21 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 9 11:14:18 2003 From: toubib21 at yahoo.com (Toubib) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 11:14:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sethra Lavode-the woman not the book In-Reply-To: <20031009175903.62582.qmail@berkano.pair.com> Message-ID: <20031009181418.54844.qmail@web40104.mail.yahoo.com> In doing some research for my website, I've come upon some confusion about Sethra Lavode. What House is she? In Path of the Dead they say her house is unknown. In Five Hundred Years After, the Emperor says that she is a Dragonlord. And it seems to me that every time she is described, it's as if she has features of both Dragons and Dzurs. So what do you all think is her true background? Benjamin www.toubib.us __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From GibelMaria at aol.com Thu Oct 9 11:18:30 2003 From: GibelMaria at aol.com (GibelMaria at aol.com) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 14:18:30 EDT Subject: Sethra Lavode-the woman not the book Message-ID: <1e6.113217bb.2cb70076@aol.com> Personally I think she's both Dzur and Dragon Lord. GB In a message dated 10/9/2003 2:14:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, toubib21 at yahoo.com writes: > In doing some research for my website, I've come upon > some confusion about Sethra Lavode. What House is she? > In Path of the Dead they say her house is unknown. In > Five Hundred Years After, the Emperor says that she is > a Dragonlord. And it seems to me that every time she > is described, it's as if she has features of both > Dragons and Dzurs. So what do you all think is her > true background? > > Benjamin > www.toubib.us From yaga at berkano.pair.com Thu Oct 9 11:26:25 2003 From: yaga at berkano.pair.com (yaga at berkano.pair.com) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 14:26:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sethra Lavode-the woman not the book In-Reply-To: <1e6.113217bb.2cb70076@aol.com> Message-ID: <20031009182625.72630.qmail@berkano.pair.com> I'll have to look for it, but somewhere in the first three books (was re-reading "The Book of Jhereg" collection recently, so I'm not sure which) Sethra tells Vlad that she is a Dragon someone offhandedly when discussing reincarnation and the initial schisms back then Keiron was still around. Until I'd read this, I'd always thought that Sethra was a half-breed. > Personally I think she's both Dzur and Dragon Lord. > > GB > > > In a message dated 10/9/2003 2:14:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > toubib21 at yahoo.com writes: > > > In doing some research for my website, I've come upon > > some confusion about Sethra Lavode. What House is she? > > In Path of the Dead they say her house is unknown. In > > Five Hundred Years After, the Emperor says that she is > > a Dragonlord. And it seems to me that every time she > > is described, it's as if she has features of both > > Dragons and Dzurs. So what do you all think is her > > true background? > > > > Benjamin > > www.toubib.us > From wyrmouroboros at comcast.net Thu Oct 9 11:39:28 2003 From: wyrmouroboros at comcast.net (wyrmouroboros at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 18:39:28 +0000 Subject: Vlad Taltos: Casting Call Message-ID: 100920031839.743.3261@comcast.net > willem dafoe should be sticks... > andy You'd waste wonderful Willem Dafoe on -Sticks-?? Come -on-. Granted, I can't think of anyone else he could play, considering that all 'elfs' are, in general, tall, lean, beardless, etc. -- i.e. they can't be bald, short, fat, or bearded, and humans (as Vlad says, in wandering into South Adrilankha in _Dragon_) can manage all of those. Come to think of it, Dafoe would make a -great- Fornia. He can carry off the necessary 'I'm going to see this through and damn the consequences' attitude. On the other hand, let's face it -- we could get maybe three or four 'big names' for any particular project, and fill in the rest with unknowns ... though there are some -very- good unknowns out there. Thomas > From carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com Thu Oct 9 11:47:54 2003 From: carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com (Carla Hunt) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 14:47:54 -0400 Subject: Sethra Lavode-the woman not the book Message-ID: i thought she was both? can't you fight your way into the dzur house? Toubib cc: Subject: Sethra Lavode-the woman not the book 10/09/2003 02:14 PM In doing some research for my website, I've come upon some confusion about Sethra Lavode. What House is she? In Path of the Dead they say her house is unknown. In Five Hundred Years After, the Emperor says that she is a Dragonlord. And it seems to me that every time she is described, it's as if she has features of both Dragons and Dzurs. So what do you all think is her true background? Benjamin www.toubib.us __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Thu Oct 9 11:58:16 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 11:58:16 -0700 Subject: Sethra Lavode-the woman not the book In-Reply-To: <20031009182625.72630.qmail@berkano.pair.com> References: <1e6.113217bb.2cb70076@aol.com> <20031009182625.72630.qmail@berkano.pair.com> Message-ID: <20031009185816.GA16720@ofb.net> On Thu, Oct 09, 2003 at 02:26:25PM -0400, yaga at berkano.pair.com wrote: > I'll have to look for it, but somewhere in the first three books (was > re-reading "The Book of Jhereg" collection recently, so I'm not sure which) > Sethra tells Vlad that she is a Dragon someone offhandedly when discussing > reincarnation and the initial schisms back then Keiron was still around. In _Jhereg_ Aliera says Sethra was around that old Dragon tribe. Of course Kieron and Zerika I would have been interacting a lot too, so that proves nothing. I think Sethra is on the Dragon Council, this from all the genetics stuff in _Yendi_. She seems to function these days more as a Dragonlord. OTOH, when Vlad asks Morrolan if he's known any Dzurlords who'd been that way Morrolan says "Sethra". And we know Sethra predates the Empire, and probably predates there being only 17 Houses. Being a half-breed (or an experimental hybrid, see "Q-17") is quite possible. Asking "what House is she" isn't really as appropriate as it is for modern Dragaerans. She seems to function as a Dragonlord and to have some association with the Dzur. (Plus that whole Dzur Mountain thing.) (Of course, most Lavodes were Dzur.) But really she's Sethra Lavode. -xx- Damien X-) From toubib21 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 9 11:59:19 2003 From: toubib21 at yahoo.com (Toubib) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 11:59:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sethra Lavode-the woman not the book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031009185919.58718.qmail@web40112.mail.yahoo.com> You can fight you way into the House of the Dzur, but that wouldn't change you features. But you would think that she is of both Houses also since her device is of a Dragon's Head and Dzur's Claw. But that could be cause of her connection to Dzur Mountain. Personally I think she is a Half-breed. She maybe before it became taboo to mate with someone of another House. Or it's possible she was created by the Jenione with a Dragon/Dzur mix. Benjamin www.toubib.com --- Carla Hunt wrote: > > > > > i thought she was both? can't you fight your way > into the dzur house? > > > > > > > Toubib > > > dragaera at dragaera.info > > om> cc: > > > > Subject: Sethra Lavode-the woman not the book > > 10/09/2003 02:14 > > > PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > In doing some research for my website, I've come > upon > some confusion about Sethra Lavode. What House is > she? > In Path of the Dead they say her house is unknown. > In > Five Hundred Years After, the Emperor says that she > is > a Dragonlord. And it seems to me that every time she > is described, it's as if she has features of both > Dragons and Dzurs. So what do you all think is her > true background? > > Benjamin > www.toubib.us > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product > search > http://shopping.yahoo.com > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Oct 9 12:01:17 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 12:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sethra Lavode-the woman not the book Message-ID: <200310091901.h99J1Hv05458@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > i thought she was both? can't you fight your way into the dzur house? You can, but that only means you're part of the House; it doesn't mean you would show any physical features of the House, which is what has been mentioned in a few of the books. I tend to think she's a half-breed. I recall, somewhere, that back in Kieron's day, people didn't fuss as much about half-breeds. Then again, the Necromancer looks to be Dragaeran, and she's a demon, so ... who knows? Sethra's powerful enough, maybe she's altered her features and/or her genes? Hey, maybe she was born a Teckla and felt like trading up! Okay, maybe not.... ;) Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From casey at the-bat.net Thu Oct 9 12:56:36 2003 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 15:56:36 -0400 Subject: Sethra Lavode-the woman not the book In-Reply-To: <20031009181418.54844.qmail@web40104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I suspect she is genetically a member of a proto-DragonDzur "House" that eventually split, i.e. she's both. How that reconciles with the other stuff about Houses and animal DNA, etc. I'm not speculating, but... Casey From wyrmouroboros at comcast.net Thu Oct 9 13:03:43 2003 From: wyrmouroboros at comcast.net (wyrmouroboros at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 20:03:43 +0000 Subject: Sethra's House Message-ID: 100920032003.20142.3b61@comcast.net Sethra Is. The Dragaerans originated with the oodles-of-tribes (28, wasn't it?) that eventually got whittled down into the Empire's 17; where the others went, well, a) who knows and b) who cares. (Maybe the various other 'elf' nations have some of those tribes, like Elde Island -- after all, nobody seems to really know what Houses -those- Dragaerans are from.) But Sethra is, literally, pre-Empire. She's from Before the Tribes. Has she ever been Empress? I expect not. She has, on the other hand, been Warlord more times than one might care to count; there is no rule, however, that says the Warlord has to be of the Emperor's House, or any particular House, for that matter. She has the look of the Dragon, and the look of the Dzur; she's older than dirt, and possibly created Dzur Mountain*. So does it matter what House she's in? Is it entirely possible that not only is she of BOTH Houses Dzur and Dragon, that she's a PROGENITOR of them both? ... okay, maybe not likely, but certainly possible. Curiously enough, we've only seen her in personal combat the once, where she fought in a most un-Dzur un-Dragonlike fashion; instead of a Dragon's berserker fury, or a Dzur's hold-nothing-back, she seems almost scientific about the whole thing, watching and waiting for openings. Otherwise ... I think it doesn't matter, for all that everyone fights over it. :) Sethra Lavode is whole unto herself. Thomas * -- Consider this: several non-volcanic Earth mountains, such as Everest, grow at rates upwards of an inch a year. Sethra Lavode, going by Alexx S. Kay's timeline (http://world.std.com/~alexx/timeline.txt), is upwards of 200,000 years old; at an inch a year, Sethra could very well have 'built' a (200,000/12) 16,666-foot mountain, which would be higher than Mont Blanc or the Matterhorn, Europe's two tallest. Give her more time, and the sucker only gets taller; 250,000 years and it's at 20,833', higher than Mt. McKinley. It'd take 350,000 years for her to build an Everest, though. From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Thu Oct 9 14:07:28 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 17:07:28 -0400 Subject: Sethra Lavode-the woman not the book In-Reply-To: <20031009185816.GA16720@ofb.net> References: <1e6.113217bb.2cb70076@aol.com> <20031009182625.72630.qmail@berkano.pair.com> <20031009185816.GA16720@ofb.net> Message-ID: <20031009210728.GA5155@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Thu, Oct 09, 2003 at 11:58:16AM -0700, Damien Sullivan wrote: > And we know Sethra predates the Empire, and probably predates there being only > 17 Houses. . . . Yes and no. In ISSOLA she states that there were once more than 17 houses, but declines to give details. From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Oct 9 14:40:42 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 09 Oct 2003 16:40:42 -0500 Subject: Sethra Lavode-the woman not the book In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Casey Rousseau" writes: > I suspect she is genetically a member of a proto-DragonDzur "House" that > eventually split, i.e. she's both. How that reconciles with the other stuff > about Houses and animal DNA, etc. I'm not speculating, but... It's also possible that she's of both houses by their alternate admissions procedure. I'm *sure* she could handle quite a few Dzur heroes. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera mailing lists: From mtiller at ntlworld.com Thu Oct 9 15:57:22 2003 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 23:57:22 +0100 Subject: Sethra Lavode-the woman not the book VERY MINOR ISSOLA SPOILER In-Reply-To: <20031009210728.GA5155@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-ID: <001601c38eb8$b969a120$0101a8c0@sweetdrewydscc> -----Original Message----- From: Steve Simmons [mailto:scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us] Sent: 09 October 2003 22:07 To: Damien Sullivan Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Sethra Lavode-the woman not the book >Yes and no. In ISSOLA she states that there were once more than 17 houses, but declines to give details. She states that 31 tribes became the empire, she also says that the number is not especially significant, just that their happened to be 31. Mark From haden at train.missouri.org Thu Oct 9 22:19:33 2003 From: haden at train.missouri.org (Curtis Haden) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 00:19:33 -0500 Subject: Opinion vs. Criticism ( was: RE: book by its ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F864165.4050806@train.missouri.org> One could always fall back on the execellent example of Kathana... e.g....STFU in Dragaeran = sword to the neck, paintbrushes to the eye!!! heh Warlord wrote: >Excuse me for a second while I go off the deep end -- > >< rant > > >Like so many other things in this universe that is laughing behind my >back, I have an opinion on the book cover. I do think the cover could >be more true to the words; however, I DO NOT think it is bad. On blurbs, >I believe that it should be either an excerpt or an accurate synopsis >of the book as a whole. There is a difference between having an opinion >and commenting on something, and CRITICIZING someones effort(s). People >should only criticize if they can do better. > >Let me make my position clear: critics should have a nice cup of STFU >until they can justify their existance by doing more than knocking >down the accomplishments of others. > >< /rant > > >Ok, I'm done. We now return you to our >regular program, "Who is Mario this Week" > >Warlord > >"Definition of a critic: one who comes down out of the mountain, > after the war is over, and shoots the dead." > > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Steve Hubbell [mailto:usagigoya at hotmail.com] >>Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 4:44 PM >>To: dragaera at dragaera.info >>Subject: Re: book by its >> >> >>I don't know what the ratio between "new" blurb is intriguing readers and >>"continuing" true-blue-buying-in-hardcover-months-early-from-Amazoners (I >>assume that is what you meant, since I prefer to support my local >>bookstores). >> >>I can say that the blurb by Roger Zelazny was a large influence >>on my buying >>Jhereg, Yendi and To Reign In Hell way back in the early >>eighties. Zelazny's >>blurbs also influenced me to try Sheri Tepper's first book King's >>Blood Four >>(and sequels). >> >>I loved the Stephen Hickman covers on Jhereg and Yendi and have to admit >>that they also were a large influence. Back then, I think cover >>art was very >>influental in trying new authors. (I still love the cover art >>being selected >>for each new Vlad Taltos book.) >> >>Now-a-days, there are so many new authors out there all writing similar >>stuff and all sporting similar looking cover art that it is hard >>to choose >>what to try. An author whom you like recommending a new or previously >>unknown author is STILL helpful in making a choice. >> >> >> >>>From: "Steven Brust" >>>To: "Philip Hart" , "Dragarea" >>> >>>Subject: Re: book by its >>>Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 14:10:05 -0700 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Question for SKZB or the powers-at-Tor - any idea what the ratio of >>>>hmm-the-Zelazny-or-T.Williams-blurb-is-intriguing purchasers to us >>>>true-blue-buying-in-hardcover-months-early-from-Amazoners is? >>>> >>>> >>>As I understand it, blurbs are less designed to appear to readers than to >>>the buyers for various chains and major outlets. Er, if that doesn't >>>answer >>>your question, you'll have to rephrases it. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>Instant message in style with MSN Messenger 6.0. Download it now FREE! >>http://msnmessenger-download.com >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > From haden at train.missouri.org Thu Oct 9 22:23:52 2003 From: haden at train.missouri.org (Curtis Haden) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 00:23:52 -0500 Subject: Sethra's House References: 100920032003.20142.3b61@comcast.net Message-ID: <3F864268.1000605@train.missouri.org> Ask Tukko... wyrmouroboros at comcast.net wrote: >Sethra Is. The Dragaerans originated with the oodles-of-tribes (28, wasn't it?) that eventually got whittled down into the Empire's 17; where the others went, well, a) who knows and b) who cares. (Maybe the various other 'elf' nations have some of those tribes, like Elde Island -- after all, nobody seems to really know what Houses -those- Dragaerans are from.) > >But Sethra is, literally, pre-Empire. She's from Before the Tribes. Has she ever been Empress? I expect not. She has, on the other hand, been Warlord more times than one might care to count; there is no rule, however, that says the Warlord has to be of the Emperor's House, or any particular House, for that matter. She has the look of the Dragon, and the look of the Dzur; she's older than dirt, and possibly created Dzur Mountain*. > >So does it matter what House she's in? Is it entirely possible that not only is she of BOTH Houses Dzur and Dragon, that she's a PROGENITOR of them both? ... okay, maybe not likely, but certainly possible. Curiously enough, we've only seen her in personal combat the once, where she fought in a most un-Dzur un-Dragonlike fashion; instead of a Dragon's berserker fury, or a Dzur's hold-nothing-back, she seems almost scientific about the whole thing, watching and waiting for openings. Otherwise ... > >I think it doesn't matter, for all that everyone fights over it. :) Sethra Lavode is whole unto herself. > > >Thomas > > >* -- Consider this: several non-volcanic Earth mountains, such as Everest, grow at rates upwards of an inch a year. Sethra Lavode, going by Alexx S. Kay's timeline (http://world.std.com/~alexx/timeline.txt), is upwards of 200,000 years old; at an inch a year, Sethra could very well have 'built' a (200,000/12) 16,666-foot mountain, which would be higher than Mont Blanc or the Matterhorn, Europe's two tallest. Give her more time, and the sucker only gets taller; 250,000 years and it's at 20,833', higher than Mt. McKinley. It'd take 350,000 years for her to build an Everest, though. > > > > From casca913 at gbronline.com Thu Oct 9 22:32:39 2003 From: casca913 at gbronline.com (Charlie Smith) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 00:32:39 -0500 Subject: Opinion vs. Criticism ( was: RE: book by its ) References: Message-ID: <004901c38eef$ec1ae7a0$c8d1fdd8@pentium4> > One can easily express that aesthetic sense without > being scathing about it. the difference is in > being helpful and being nasty. > > I object to the latter who can't do any better. Heh, I usually object to the former. . . but then I also absolutely love sarcasm so how can you tell if I'm telling the truing of being humorous. :P -- Charlie Smith e'Paarfi -- "Remind me to inform Sethra of the power of the hissy-cow..." -- Vlad Taltos, How to kill a god in 5 moves or less From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Fri Oct 10 00:47:13 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 07:47:13 +0000 Subject: Vlad Taltos: Casting Call Message-ID: >From: wyrmouroboros at comcast.net >To: >Subject: Re: Vlad Taltos: Casting Call >Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 18:39:28 +0000 > > > willem dafoe should be sticks... > > andy > >You'd waste wonderful Willem Dafoe on -Sticks-?? I do not think that it's a waste: Sticks was a really charismatic character. I miss Sticks. Sniff! _________________________________________________________________ Charla con tus amigos en l?nea mediante MSN Messenger: http://messenger.microsoft.com/es From bonham15 at cox.net Fri Oct 10 01:10:14 2003 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 03:10:14 -0500 Subject: Vlad Taltos: Casting Call References: Message-ID: <000401c38f05$ef91e3f0$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> /ventures into the land of overanalysis (yes i know there's no future in it)... i felt that sticks was one o those dragaera 'humans' who showed that ol' vlad could have normal relationships with normal people and not just go highballing on the hating. what i've always found amusing about vlad is that the people around him are all that kept him anchored and kept him from being a garden variety homicidial maniac witch. in that regard i felt that sticks was actually fairly important. not kragar level by any means but very important and a hella fun character. ironic that to clean up vlad's life, brust totally uprooted the character from everything that kept him good AND 'bad (jhereg, assassin yadda yadda yadda)' so he could find his center. oddly, his center was being a jhereg and killing stuff. it was just that he had to retarget the instincts. reminded me of an old drunk going to aa meetings, had to change his environment to break his self destructive cycle...... annnnd its late. rereading this i see babbletracks all over. gnight.. and i still think dafoe would be perfect for sticks. ;) andy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iv?n Rebollo" To: Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 2:47 AM Subject: Re: Vlad Taltos: Casting Call > >From: wyrmouroboros at comcast.net > >To: > >Subject: Re: Vlad Taltos: Casting Call > >Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 18:39:28 +0000 > > > > > willem dafoe should be sticks... > > > andy > > > >You'd waste wonderful Willem Dafoe on -Sticks-?? > > I do not think that it's a waste: Sticks was a really charismatic character. > > I miss Sticks. Sniff! > > _________________________________________________________________ > Charla con tus amigos en l?nea mediante MSN Messenger: > http://messenger.microsoft.com/es > From mneme at io.com Fri Oct 10 08:08:35 2003 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:08:35 -0500 Subject: cracksandshards.com ! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16262.52083.51381.484071@fnord.io.com> Warlord writes: >the easiest way to do this is to have your provider >modify the DNS zone file so that it points to the >new domain name. That actually doesn't make any sense. I'm not sure it's even wrong. But sticking a redirect (nothing to do with DNS, Warlord -- whole different layer). onto the root page of the old site which points to the new one is probably a good idea, yes. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Oct 10 08:13:57 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:13:57 -0500 Subject: cracksandshards.com ! In-Reply-To: <16262.52083.51381.484071@fnord.io.com> References: <16262.52083.51381.484071@fnord.io.com> Message-ID: <20031010151357.GF30228@infodancer.org> On Fri, Oct 10, 2003 at 10:08:35AM -0500, Joshua Kronengold wrote: > Warlord writes: > >the easiest way to do this is to have your provider > >modify the DNS zone file so that it points to the > >new domain name. > That actually doesn't make any sense. I'm not sure it's even wrong. > But sticking a redirect (nothing to do with DNS, Warlord -- whole > different layer). onto the root page of the old site which points to > the new one is probably a good idea, yes. He was probably thinking of a CNAME, which is effectively a DNS-based redirect. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From mneme at io.com Fri Oct 10 08:25:23 2003 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:25:23 -0500 Subject: cracksandshards.com ! In-Reply-To: <20031010151357.GF30228@infodancer.org> References: <16262.52083.51381.484071@fnord.io.com> <20031010151357.GF30228@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <16262.53091.39683.561245@fnord.io.com> Matthew Hunter writes: >On Fri, Oct 10, 2003 at 10:08:35AM -0500, Joshua Kronengold wrote: >> Warlord writes: >> >the easiest way to do this is to have your provider >> >modify the DNS zone file so that it points to the >> >new domain name. >> That actually doesn't make any sense. I'm not sure it's even wrong. >> But sticking a redirect (nothing to do with DNS, Warlord -- whole >> different layer). onto the root page of the old site which points to >> the new one is probably a good idea, yes. >He was probably thinking of a CNAME, which is effectively a >DNS-based redirect. Well, yes -- I was thinking of that myself, but depending on how a server is constructed, this doesn't always change the URL. ("Canonical name" in, say, Apache will do this, but that's because it does a self-redirect if it finds a client is coming in off the wrong URL). -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From warlord at dragon.com Fri Oct 10 08:26:49 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 11:26:49 -0400 Subject: cracksandshards.com ! In-Reply-To: <20031010151357.GF30228@infodancer.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Matthew Hunter [mailto:matthew at infodancer.org] > Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 11:14 AM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: cracksandshards.com ! > > > On Fri, Oct 10, 2003 at 10:08:35AM -0500, Joshua Kronengold > wrote: > > Warlord writes: > > >the easiest way to do this is to have your provider > > >modify the DNS zone file so that it points to the > > >new domain name. > > That actually doesn't make any sense. I'm not sure it's even wrong. > > But sticking a redirect (nothing to do with DNS, Warlord -- whole > > different layer). onto the root page of the old site which points to > > the new one is probably a good idea, yes. > > He was probably thinking of a CNAME, which is effectively a > DNS-based redirect. > Matthew is correct in assuming what I had in mind. That way, no redirect page is necessary. If someone tries to go to the old domain name, they are taken to the ip address if the new www.cracksandshards.com Not that I know anything about how this stuff works, mind you, I'm just guessing. 8^) The internet is unhousetrained communication: ip everywhere W From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Oct 10 12:12:10 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 15:12:10 -0400 Subject: cracksandshards.com ! Message-ID: <30C226CF.6823EA0D.00048EA6@aol.com> Joshua Kronengold writes: > Warlord writes: >> the easiest way to do this is to have your provider >> modify the DNS zone file so that it points to the >> new domain name. > > That actually doesn't make any sense. ?I'm not sure it's > even wrong. > > But sticking a redirect (nothing to do with DNS, Warlord -- > whole different layer). onto the root page of the old site > which points to the new one is probably a good idea, yes. Ironically, Mark is currently doing the opposite: the new URL will redirect you to the old site. --KG From greyw01f at hotmail.com Fri Oct 10 17:59:06 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 00:59:06 +0000 Subject: Sethra's House Message-ID: uh, am I the only one on the list who distinctly remembers Sethra once saying to Vlad something along the lines of "don't be silly, I'm Dzur" I could be raving, though---I *am* frightfully sick right now. I think its in Jhereg (the one with Cawti and Norathar being introduced, whichever it is) where there are hints about her importance to House Dragon with various comments like :It was my duty to the House: and :This is a matter that concerns Dragons: etc... But I think shes House Dzur But then, you are all right--she DOES predate the houses. And she is kind of the essence of Dragaera---I wonder if shes like a Gaia figure, only beginning to wake up--everyone else would of course be intruders, brought by the Jenoine. Jon _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jjnichol at MIT.EDU Fri Oct 10 18:20:52 2003 From: jjnichol at MIT.EDU (Joy Jennifer Nicholson) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 21:20:52 -0400 Subject: book by its In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 08 Oct 2003 16:13:19 CDT." Message-ID: <200310110120.h9B1KqZf010013@biohazard-cafe.mit.edu> To add a data point, I orignally read Brust because my college ran a LARP based on the Vlad series. I then ignored it for several years, until I happened upon Dragon in an airport bookstore. Dragon re-ignited my love of Brust, and since then I've religiously bought every and any book by him. -joix From pulmon at comcast.net Fri Oct 10 19:51:15 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 22:51:15 -0400 Subject: book by its In-Reply-To: <200310110120.h9B1KqZf010013@biohazard-cafe.mit.edu> Message-ID: What prayer do you use when by each book? On Friday, October 10, 2003, at 09:20 PM, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote: > > To add a data point, I orignally read Brust because my college ran a > LARP based > on the Vlad series. I then ignored it for several years, until I > happened upon Dragon > in an airport bookstore. Dragon re-ignited my love of Brust, and > since then I've > religiously bought every and any book by him. > > -joix > > From GibelMaria at aol.com Fri Oct 10 21:13:36 2003 From: GibelMaria at aol.com (GibelMaria at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 00:13:36 EDT Subject: In Regards to LaRPs Message-ID: <4b.34ea4f26.2cb8dd70@aol.com> In a message dated 10/10/2003 9:21:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jjnichol at MIT.EDU writes: > I orignally read Brust because my college ran a LARP based > on the Vlad series. (Warning... Geek moment abut to happen...) Well, Funny thing you mentioned LaRPs... Cause my friend and I.. perhaps in a state of Steven-Brust-Enduced-Euphoria, after reading LoCB ... where Throwing around ideas regarding sponsoring a Dragerea Based LaRP at next years I-Con convention in the North East... We planned to perhaps do a Party/Murder/Mystery show... Now I am not sure how many of you live in the North East but what do we all think about a Dragerea inspired LaRP and would it Succeed at a convention ... we really do want to sponsor, and heck, run the Event, I know my friend is itching to write up the murder mystery... The Rules would be...: No one can play Vlad.. Except SKZB himself, (if he wished to that is)....if he deems to show himself, in the case he does not, well ... it would be assumed it is taking place around the time Vlad is very young ... just after meeting Kiera, and still works for his father as a delivery boy... One must be in a costume ... must have a name and house, and be wearing appropriate house colors... Heck, we might even put in a contest for the best public discussion/argument in the "Paarafi-style-Dialogue" For which I mean that the sentences will be elongated as to describe in an ridiculous mount of words and an almost Exhausting number of sentences, the same phrase. I am highly interested in your opinions on whether this might work out, and also in finding out how many of us North Easterners (Heheheh I made a Funny) might be interested... GB-in-the-midst-of-insomnia Ps... Sorry f I am using too many punctuation marks and or not enough. I haven't slept in the Gods know how long and it don't look like I will any time soon. PPs... Wow... I think this is the longest mail I've written for this site... I am almost impressed with myself... (Yawn)... Almost From Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 11 04:17:48 2003 From: Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net (Daemian Spayde) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 04:17:48 -0700 Subject: In Regards to LaRPs References: <4b.34ea4f26.2cb8dd70@aol.com> Message-ID: <005b01c38fe9$4e7ef180$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> Well...(warning, more geek moments happening, rather longish) Being the President of the California Chapter of a National LARP group, I can recommend the following: First, I _strongly_ suggest having the 'Main Characters' played as NPCs (or people who are involved in the script/storyline, and have pre-determined actions/reactions to things that happen in the 'game'). That way you don't have 17 Adrons and 34 Zerikas all showing up to the game. Shards! I think that would be confusing. Second, develop a Really Cool Storyline! Have NPCs (who know the Story) and PCs (who only know their character), and make it fun, and interesting and very involving. Have Subplots and Politics, give people hidden Agendas (Jhereg-style), and in general, give everyone something to do. Third, get some very strong Role-Players to be the Head of Each House. That way, those people can help those of us who are unfortunate enough to not know how to Role-play their way out of a Wet Paper Bag with a Chainsaw. Also, you will have to have some people who are just 'Moderators' (i.e. Judges, DMs, GMs, etc.) that do nothing but watch the progress of play, and try to keep the flow of the game moving. They will handle disputes and must have relatively good judgement, or know how to take bribes well. Fourth, one of the draws of LARP games is the combat. Whether it's Rock-paper-scissors, or hitting each other with Foam/Boffer swords and Bean bags, people like to fight! The main thing I could see with a Dragaeran style LARP is LOTS of Duels. The Group I am with (I.F.G.S.) uses safe foam swords and a combat style very similar to Sabre Fencing (sans the Head and Groin shots). Other Groups (like Vampire) use Rock-Paper-Scissors. Even other groups use Dice and 'Roll out' the combats on a nearby table, and there is even a guy who uses Shuffle Board for his LARP combat/spell casting system. The options are limitless, but the rules MUST be defined and made available WAY ahead of time, so everyone plays by the same rules. Fourth.5, DON'T USE REAL WEAPONS! Death is a pretty big turn off for most people, and real weapons (although cool), generally do what they are intended to do, which is hurt people. If you DO go with Combat, make sure it is 100% safe (/safety bob speech over). Fifth, define how 'Magic' works. Otherwise you'll have everyone trying to control Amorphia and turning everyone else inside out. Make it clear, make it EASY, and make it 'difficult to do the difficult stuff'. Sixth, remember that everyone wants to be the hero. As such, you will get several people who try to play 'Vlad Clones', 'Morrolan Clones', 'Sethra Clones', 'Kieron Clones', etc. Everyone wants to own a Great Sword and have a series of books written about them, but not everyone can. The point is, give people things OTHER than Great Weapons and Magic Powers that make them Special. Running a LARP with 51 Vlad's running around would get old, FAST! Last, and certainly most important, CATER TO THE FEMALES! If you happen to get women that want to participate, do NOT turn them away by giving them lame parts. Give them GREAT parts. Make them integral to the storyline. LARPing (like most 'gaming') is filled with Male Geeks with no social skills. Typically, chicks don't dig that. But if a lady is having a good time with it, she's likely to stick around and add that certain element to the game that guys just can't add (don't ask me what that element is, I don't know. I'm a guy). Personally, I WISH I had the cash to attend I-con, if nothing else than to try and help you set this up. GB, if you (or anyone else) has any questions or comments about LARPs, or the Dragaeran LARPs I have seen/done, feel free to email me privately so we don't overload the rest of the list with Geek talk. Daemian Spayde aka Katt Jean www.socal.ifgs.org PS - I did participate in a small Dragearan LARP once, where I was able to carry on a VERY long conversation with someone else in Paarfi-style-speech, and all we were talking about was the snacks. That speech was one of the high-lights of the game for me, but overall I had an AMAZING time. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, October 10, 2003 9:13 PM Subject: In Regards to LaRPs > In a message dated 10/10/2003 9:21:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > jjnichol at MIT.EDU writes: > > > I orignally read Brust because my college ran a LARP based > > on the Vlad series. > > > (Warning... Geek moment abut to happen...) > > Well, Funny thing you mentioned LaRPs... Cause my friend and I.. perhaps in a > state of Steven-Brust-Enduced-Euphoria, after reading LoCB ... where Throwing > around ideas regarding sponsoring a Dragerea Based LaRP at next years I-Con > convention in the North East... We planned to perhaps do a Party/Murder/Mystery > show... Now I am not sure how many of you live in the North East but what do > we all think about a Dragerea inspired LaRP and would it Succeed at a > convention ... we really do want to sponsor, and heck, run the Event, I know my friend > is itching to write up the murder mystery... > > The Rules would be...: No one can play Vlad.. Except SKZB himself, (if he > wished to that is)....if he deems to show himself, in the case he does not, well > ... it would be assumed it is taking place around the time Vlad is very young > ... just after meeting Kiera, and still works for his father as a delivery > boy... One must be in a costume ... must have a name and house, and be wearing > appropriate house colors... > > Heck, we might even put in a contest for the best public discussion/argument > in the "Paarafi-style-Dialogue" For which I mean that the sentences will be > elongated as to describe in an ridiculous mount of words and an almost > Exhausting number of sentences, the same phrase. > > I am highly interested in your opinions on whether this might work out, and > also in finding out how many of us North Easterners (Heheheh I made a Funny) > might be interested... > > GB-in-the-midst-of-insomnia > > Ps... Sorry f I am using too many punctuation marks and or not enough. I > haven't slept in the Gods know how long and it don't look like I will any time > soon. > > PPs... Wow... I think this is the longest mail I've written for this site... > I am almost impressed with myself... (Yawn)... Almost > From pulmon at comcast.net Sat Oct 11 05:04:33 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 08:04:33 -0400 Subject: In Regards to LaRPs In-Reply-To: <4b.34ea4f26.2cb8dd70@aol.com> Message-ID: <1389236A-FBE3-11D7-8BB1-0003938F1608@comcast.net> I have one question. What is a "LARP"? Is it the same as a "LaRP"? On Saturday, October 11, 2003, at 12:13 AM, GibelMaria at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/10/2003 9:21:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > jjnichol at MIT.EDU writes: > >> I orignally read Brust because my college ran a LARP based >> on the Vlad series. > > > (Warning... Geek moment abut to happen...) > > Well, Funny thing you mentioned LaRPs... Cause my friend and I.. > perhaps in a > state of Steven-Brust-Enduced-Euphoria, after reading LoCB ... where > Throwing > around ideas regarding sponsoring a Dragerea Based LaRP at next years > I-Con > convention in the North East... We planned to perhaps do a > Party/Murder/Mystery > show... Now I am not sure how many of you live in the North East but > what do > we all think about a Dragerea inspired LaRP and would it Succeed at a > convention ... we really do want to sponsor, and heck, run the Event, > I know my friend > is itching to write up the murder mystery... > > The Rules would be...: No one can play Vlad.. Except SKZB himself, (if > he > wished to that is)....if he deems to show himself, in the case he does > not, well > ... it would be assumed it is taking place around the time Vlad is > very young > ... just after meeting Kiera, and still works for his father as a > delivery > boy... One must be in a costume ... must have a name and house, and be > wearing > appropriate house colors... > > Heck, we might even put in a contest for the best public > discussion/argument > in the "Paarafi-style-Dialogue" For which I mean that the sentences > will be > elongated as to describe in an ridiculous mount of words and an almost > Exhausting number of sentences, the same phrase. > > I am highly interested in your opinions on whether this might work > out, and > also in finding out how many of us North Easterners (Heheheh I made a > Funny) > might be interested... > > GB-in-the-midst-of-insomnia > > Ps... Sorry f I am using too many punctuation marks and or not > enough. I > haven't slept in the Gods know how long and it don't look like I will > any time > soon. > > PPs... Wow... I think this is the longest mail I've written for this > site... > I am almost impressed with myself... (Yawn)... Almost From kynigos at comcast.net Sat Oct 11 07:25:17 2003 From: kynigos at comcast.net (Orion Kynigos) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 07:25:17 -0700 Subject: In Regards to LaRPs In-Reply-To: <1389236A-FBE3-11D7-8BB1-0003938F1608@comcast.net> Message-ID: <000001c39003$7f2468a0$0202a8c0@Lexicon> >I have one question. What is a "LARP"? Is it the same as a "LaRP"? On Saturday, October 11, 2003, at 12:13 AM, GibelMaria at aol.com wrote: While I don't know the significance of a lowercase "a"... It stands for Live Action Role-Playing... My own explanation would be D&D meets improv acting... -Orion From pulmon at comcast.net Sat Oct 11 07:45:12 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 10:45:12 -0400 Subject: In Regards to LaRPs In-Reply-To: <000001c39003$7f2468a0$0202a8c0@Lexicon> Message-ID: <84D87DFA-FBF9-11D7-8BB1-0003938F1608@comcast.net> Thanks! On Saturday, October 11, 2003, at 10:25 AM, Orion Kynigos wrote: >> I have one question. What is a "LARP"? Is it the same as a "LaRP"? On > Saturday, October 11, 2003, at 12:13 AM, GibelMaria at aol.com wrote: > > While I don't know the significance of a lowercase "a"... It stands for > Live Action Role-Playing... > My own explanation would be D&D meets improv acting... > > -Orion > > From toubib21 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 11 07:51:35 2003 From: toubib21 at yahoo.com (Toubib) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 07:51:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sethra's House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031011145135.64236.qmail@web40101.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jon Carey wrote: > > uh, am I the only one on the list who distinctly > remembers Sethra once > saying to Vlad something along the lines of "don't > be silly, I'm Dzur" > > I could be raving, though---I *am* frightfully sick > right now. I think its > in Jhereg (the one with Cawti and Norathar being > introduced, whichever it > is) where there are hints about her importance to > House Dragon with various > comments like :It was my duty to the House: and > :This is a matter that > concerns Dragons: etc... > > But I think shes House Dzur > > But then, you are all right--she DOES predate the > houses. And she is kind > of the essence of Dragaera---I wonder if shes like a > Gaia figure, only > beginning to wake up--everyone else would of course > be intruders, brought by > the Jenoine. > > Jon > The book you are thinking of is Yendi. I happen to be re-reading it now. But I have a feeling that it was written before her House situation became canon. Things that have come out recently I believe are saying no one knows her House, but if I come across it while reading I'll let you know. I'd hate for you to go thru life thinking you're raving mad. ===== Doc www.toubib.us __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From bonham15 at cox.net Sat Oct 11 10:34:41 2003 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 12:34:41 -0500 Subject: Sethra's House References: <20031011145135.64236.qmail@web40101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000801c3901d$f40e3910$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> probably wouldn't mind. i've noticed that the mad consider themselves quite sane, so even considering the possibility that you might be mad is probably a sign of impending sanity and should be quashed with alcohol as soon as possible. andy > The book you are thinking of is Yendi. I happen to be > re-reading it now. But I have a feeling that it was > written before her House situation became canon. > Things that have come out recently I believe are > saying no one knows her House, but if I come across it > while reading I'll let you know. I'd hate for you to > go thru life thinking you're raving mad. > > > > ===== > Doc > www.toubib.us > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search > http://shopping.yahoo.com From toubib21 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 11 14:06:46 2003 From: toubib21 at yahoo.com (Toubib) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 14:06:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sethra's House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031011210646.88506.qmail@web40107.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jon Carey wrote: > > uh, am I the only one on the list who distinctly > remembers Sethra once > saying to Vlad something along the lines of "don't > be silly, I'm Dzur" > Jon Ok, just finished Yendi and at now point does Sethra says she's a Dzur. The only people who House come into question are Sethra the Younger and Sorceress in Green. ===== Doc www.toubib.us __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From rone at ennui.org Sat Oct 11 14:17:54 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (roger n. tospott) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 14:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sethra's House In-Reply-To: <20031011210646.88506.qmail@web40107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20031011211754.CE4D226C34@boredom.ennui.org> Toubib writes: Ok, just finished Yendi and at now point does Sethra says she's a Dzur. The only people who House come into question are Sethra the Younger and Sorceress in Green. Sethra the Younger is a Dragon. rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From davids at kithrup.com Mon Oct 13 16:14:22 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 16:14:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sethra's House In-Reply-To: <20031011210646.88506.qmail@web40107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Oct 2003, Toubib wrote: > >Ok, just finished Yendi and at now point does Sethra >says she's a Dzur. The only people who House come into >question are Sethra the Younger and Sorceress in Green. > The only place I can think of that might match such a notion is in /Taltos/, when Vlad and Morrolan are following the Blood River on their way to Deathsgate Falls, where they pass the statue of a dzur, and Morrolan comments that that was where Sethra was given to Deathsgate when she died. Vlad says something like "I thought she was a Dragon", and Morrolan declines to comment furthur. When describing her, Paarfi mentions that she has features of both Dragon and Dzur. Listing the possibilties, I thought of the following: 1) She might be a Dragon (skilled general, seems to take an interest in House Dragon) 2) She might also be a Dzur (House Dzur allows those who defeat 17 Heros to join the House, and her home *is* Dzur Mountain) 3) She might be a Dragon-Dzur crossbreed, but nobody says that because it would be gauche, and as noted, she predates the founding of the Empire, and probably predates the creation of the crossbreed taboos. 4) She might be a Jhereg, which is very nearly the same as number 3 above (Jhereg are the House of crossbreeds, after all, and it doesn't get mentioned because she's not really part of the Organization [1], and Jhereg are generally looked down on). 5) She might be of a House that did not survive to join the Empire. 6) She might be a Yendi (can't tell from looking at them what House they are). 7) She might be a designed mix of *all* of the Houses in nearly equal proportions (after all, her primary goal is to defend the Cycle, so being of all Houses allows her to understand all of them innately and intuitively, and won't cause her to favor any one in particular). This might be sort-of like (3) above. 8) She might belong to *none* of the Houses (again, no House partisanship, although we lose being able to grok them). I don't know if we'll ever find out which one is exactly true. Would anyone have the nerve to genescan Sethra Lavode [2] ? Would anyone be *able* to genescan Sethra Lavode [2]? Would anyone who did so, presuming survival, tell anyone else [2]? [1] ORCA SPOILER notwithstanding; and it was only 2000 years before Vlad's time anyway. [2] Cue song: You don't spit in a Dragon's face You don't challenge a Dzur for the road You don't turn informer on the Organization And whatever you do, whatever you do, If you value your life & if you value your soul, You don't mess with Sethra Lavode. -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname From casey at the-bat.net Mon Oct 13 18:05:07 2003 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 21:05:07 -0400 Subject: Sethra's House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501c391ef$37760ac0$7702a8c0@Prophnt2.local> David Silberstein wrote: > The only place I can think of that might match such a notion > is in /Taltos/, when Vlad and Morrolan are following the > Blood River on their way to Deathsgate Falls, where they pass > the statue of a dzur, and Morrolan comments that that was > where Sethra was given to Deathsgate when she died. [snip excellent summation of possibilities] > I don't know if we'll ever find out which one is exactly > true. Would anyone have the nerve to genescan Sethra Lavode > [2] ? Would anyone be *able* to genescan Sethra Lavode [2]? > Would anyone who did so, presuming survival, tell anyone else [2]? Ah, David, I can always count on you for a much more complete answer than anything I come up with. :) The one thing I'm surprised you didn't pull in was the mention of her genealogy block. I recall it being something like nothing entering in and nothing coming out. From bonham15 at cox.net Mon Oct 13 18:16:43 2003 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 20:16:43 -0500 Subject: Sethra's House References: <000501c391ef$37760ac0$7702a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: <000601c391f0$d49a33c0$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> ding!.. its been speculated that she is quite simply a part of dzur mountain too.. it is she and she is it.. regardless he was around when kieron and the band of merry souls now reincarnated were there.. and she was the one who saw what "vlad" was going to do and did not move to stop it. the only thing that really sticks in my mind was her musing about the chance to go to sleep again at some time. memory of where escapes me. andy > > The one thing I'm surprised you didn't pull in was the mention of her > genealogy block. I recall it being something like nothing entering in and > nothing coming out. > > From Gaertk at aol.com Mon Oct 13 18:25:27 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 21:25:27 -0400 Subject: Sethra's House Message-ID: <48E36E62.0A2175A4.00048EA6@aol.com> "Casey Rousseau" writes: > The one thing I'm surprised you didn't pull in was the > mention of her genealogy block. ?I recall it being > something like nothing entering in and nothing coming out. It named her parents, but I don't know if that includes which House they were (and they almost certainly predate lineage signifiers in thier names). FHYA, chapter 8, p. 103(mmpb): "as if her maternal and paternal ancestor had appeared from nowhere at all, begotten her, and vanished." --KG From sabia at mojoworld.net Mon Oct 13 20:58:16 2003 From: sabia at mojoworld.net (sabia at mojoworld.net) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 20:58:16 -0700 Subject: PoTD & LoCB - random thoughts Message-ID: <5396916D8B3BD44796A5A5EAEA93AEDF013AC2@deathstar.internal.mojoworld.net> Hello all, I've just acquired the latest tomes and gone through them like a jug of Mexican water through a Swiss tourist. Thank you Mr. Brust, for writing them! :) S P O I L E R S A few neurons have flickered to life and generated these random observations in following random order: 1. LoCB [ch 37, pg 44-45] Lord Drien who lived in the Third Cycle. Is he Drien e'[someone] or is this the same transmorgifying Drien in Issola? That Paarfi simply names the gentleman as Lord Drien without a line suggests to me that he's *the* Drien. If so, does that imply (a) Kieron was also kicking it in the Third Cycle, (b) Drien, the shaman-turned-warrior, was exceptionally long lived? or (c) other. Note that Drien went over Deathgate Falls so presumably he's either reincarnated or playing sudden-death sherba with Kieron on alternate Endweeks. 2. PoTD [pb ch 7] Teldra was raised in the East, poor but obviously educated to some degree in the history, customs, and manners of Faerie. She's wearing her House colours when she shows up and recognizes Morrolan's Dragon-ish features. Is it ever explained what happened to her family or guardians? 3. PoTD [as above] Did Morrolan strike anyone as kind of on the dense side? I realize this is a probable combination of Paarfi looking for a humourous scene and Morrolan's lack of worldliness but his ability to synthesize information is really lacking. He's, what, two hundred and fifty something at this point? 4. PoTD [pb ch 3, p 28] '..typical Dragonlords, short rather than tall..' There. Aliera should feel better. Not ref'd: The Sword Eventually Called Blackwand: it's not awake but it's aware enough to give M the warm fuzzies. So, is it like Godslayer at the end of Issola? There's a soul inside but not fully interactive? Circle of Witches: Damn, there's a lot of free lance witches around. Don't any of them have resistance to telepathic suggestions? Who thinks the whole 'witches drawing supporters to M with dreams' was a romantic touch by Paarfi? If Arra was the focus, what happens when she's gone? Cliffhanger endings: Written by a mean, mean, man. Is it April yet? -Sabia, thinking it's high time to update SIL From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Oct 13 23:01:47 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 14 Oct 2003 01:01:47 -0500 Subject: New dragaera.info site Message-ID: Well, I've launched the current baselevel of the new dragaera.info site. The links and the mailing list archives are still there. There's now also an events calendar (with nothing on it yet; submit your dragaera-related events now!), and the dragaera search engine (searches dragaera.info including the mailing list archives and a number of the sites we link to), and... ...The book search engine, which searches the full text of 6 of the books. We need to scan and OCR some more of the books, of course; we want them all. I've also got a couple of ideas for improving the quality of the within chapter results. There are more sections coming, and more work on the existing sections, and probably some further changes to the graphics and colors (and thanks to Todd Lyles for what we're using right now). Also a number of installation and build issues I really need to fix, grumble mutter. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera mailing lists: From wyrmouroboros at comcast.net Mon Oct 13 23:58:08 2003 From: wyrmouroboros at comcast.net (wyrmouroboros at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 06:58:08 +0000 Subject: Regarding Great Weapons (LoCB, Issola Spoilers) Message-ID: 101420030658.18993.2fbd@comcast.net > The Sword Eventually Called Blackwand: it's not awake but it's aware enough > to give M the warm fuzzies. So, is it like Godslayer at the end of Issola? > There's a soul inside but not fully interactive? > -- Sabia Considering I have the three relevant tomes -- _Dragon_ (for Pathfinder), _Lord of Castle Black_ (for Blackwand), and _Issola_ (for Godslayer) -- near to hand, I would like to make some observations, deductions, and draw a logical conclusion or two. To summarize: Godslayer was reassembled. Pathfinder had to be reawakened. Blackwand was simply waiting. Let us examine Godslayer first. In _Dragon_, an unnamed Serioli informs us that 'an attempt was made to destroy [Godslayer].' This, apparently, resulted in the main ability of Godslayer (to wit, to penetrate virtually any defense worth the name) being isolated in a chain of gold (or gold Phoenix stone) links, which wound up in the home of a certain Athyra wizard (Loraan by name). A few years down the road, a certain Easterner Jhereg assassin (Our Man Vlad) sneaks in, snags the chain, intercepts a few spells, and eventually names the thing Spellbreaker. (Nice simple name.) Another few years down the road, the aforementioned Vlad and Spellbreaker find themselves in a bit of a rumpus down the road at a place called the Lesser Sea of Chaos. At this time, a certain Issola Lady by the name of Teldra grabbed a particularly nasty Morganti dagger and stuck it into a Jenoine who just happened to be drawing on the aforementioned Sea. This is where we should pause and make a few observations and assumptions. Morganti daggers, according to what Vlad has said he understands about how they work, treat the soul as a field of sorcerous energy, which they consume. Considering what might meant by 'strong' and 'weak' Morganti weapons, I -assume- that a 'strong' weapon has a 'big' appetite, and can devour soul after soul (or sorcerous field after sorcerous field) without burping, can 'bite in' if it makes only a little cut, that sort of thing. A 'weak' one, on the other hand, perhaps needs a critical or lethal blow to actually 'eat', and can't handle more than one or two souls/sorcerous fields before having to stop to digest. This assumption -- that a Morganti weapon, no matter its power, DOES have an upper end of some sort -- becomes significant. So we have a very nasty (i.e. strong) Morganti dagger sticking into the lower back of a Jenoine (normally only vulnerable to Great Weapons) who happens to be linked to the immense supply of sorcerous energy known as Adron -- err, the Lesser Sea. I consider it possible -- even likely -- that the dagger was 'filled up', as it were, by its attempt to feast on the Jenoine's soul; as the Jenoine's 'field of sorcerous energy' was being directly supplemented by a much greater 'field of sorcerous energy', the dagger had all it could eat, and it couldn't eat no more. Thus, when it was thrust into the Issola Lady Teldra, it 'took' her soul, but did not completely destroy it (or disassociate, or whatever) immediately. This is what enabled Vlad to harness the great amount of power currently within the Morganti dagger, the personality remnants of Lady Teldra, and the slight sentience and sorcery-destroying capabilities of Spellbreaker and combine them into the recreation of the Great Weapon Godslayer. Made Verra pretty nervous, too. Pathfinder, on the other hand, was already assembled. Early on in _Dragon_, Morrolan makes the comment that Barritt did a lot of stuff he shouldn't have been able to do -- such as defying the Empire and making it stick. Morrolan further suggested that Barritt probably had a Great Weapon to help him out; this Great Weapon is, obviously, the weapon that a) Fornia had stolen, b) Sethra the Younger recovered at the Battle of Barritt's Wall, c) 'awoke' when it clashed with another Great Weapon, i.e. Blackwand, and d) is called Pathfinder, which Aliera e'Kieron now wields. Did Pathfinder need a 'soul' (i.e. Napper) and did Aliera need to 'assemble' it? Of course not; if she did, then Barritt never had a Great Weapon, because it hadn't been assembled. Pathfinder needed to be reawakened, and no doubt needed to find Aliera; the Serioli in _Dragon_ says that the great weapon Pathfinder (okay, he uses a different name) would be found, and it's pretty clear that Aliera is Pathfinder's chosen/preferred partner. But nowhere does the Serioli say that Pathfinder had to be put back together, the way Godslayer did. ("Are you saying that I'm holding a Great Weapon?" 'Not yet.') So Pathfinder comes to Aliera, having been banged awake by Blackwand. An interesting question; when did Barritt put Pathfinder into the concealing sword, and put it to 'sleep'?? Blackwand, as the third example, is -very-clearly- whole and awake from the beginning. The text used by Paarfi to describe the reactions of the people around Morrolan when Blackwand is first drawn is, almost word for word, the same description used by Mssr. Taltos when he is exposed to Blackwand's unsheated presence. To wit, it is great fear, the sense of being hunted, the weapon just -dying- for a chance to bite deep into your soul. (Yum.) EVERYONE around Morrolan took at least a step back, even the Necromancer, when he first drew it. How could two different groups of people, seperated by hundreds of miles and years, have the -exact-same-reaction- to the exact same weapon unless the weapon in question was, essentially, identical in every respect? The Blackwand at the time of the Ninth (or Tenth) Battle of Dzur Mountain is the same Blackwand of the time of Vlad Taltos -- whole, hale, awake, and ready to cut up a few hundred people. Interestingly enough, the text that Paarfi uses in _Lord of Castle Black_ to describe the reaction of the Great Weapon's wielder (i.e. Morrolan) is likewise virtually identical to the description given by Vlad in relation to how it feels to wield Lady Teldra -- a rush of power and pleasure, a great feeling of well-being, etc. This again gives credence to the idea that Blackwand is 'assembled and awake', and was simply awaiting the touch of Morrolan's hand. Considering those two pairs of 'coincidences', I might suspect Steve of cheating and re-using texts. Cough cough. But I'm sure he just put them in there to sustain canon. Not that he's ever gone through an effort to do that before ... ;) So. Blackwand was simply waiting; Pathfinder needed to be awakened; Lady Teldra (aka Godslayer) needed to be 'reassembled'. There should, I expect, be little more dissention amongst the ranks of Mssr. Brust's fans in regards to these little items ... Thomas Crain aka Felix Eisen aka The Wyrm Ouroboros From davids at kithrup.com Tue Oct 14 01:19:35 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 01:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sethra's House In-Reply-To: <48E36E62.0A2175A4.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: >"Casey Rousseau" writes: > >> The one thing I'm surprised you didn't pull in was the >> mention of her genealogy block. ?I recall it being >> something like nothing entering in and nothing coming out. > >It named her parents, but I don't know if that includes which >House they were (and they almost certainly predate lineage >signifiers in thier names). > >FHYA, chapter 8, p. 103(mmpb): >"as if her maternal and paternal ancestor had appeared from >nowhere at all, begotten her, and vanished." > You know, it's kinda creepy how certain themes and topics of conversation recur. I remembered we'd had this conversation before, and on checking my log files, found that almost exactly a year ago, I wrote, concerning Sethra's lineage block: On Wed, 16 Oct 2002 davids at kithrup.com wrote: >No names mentioned at all. > >I wonder if she is perhaps an uncreated looping time-traveller, like >[spoiler] from Pratchett's "Pyramids". > From casey at the-bat.net Tue Oct 14 06:41:51 2003 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 09:41:51 -0400 Subject: Sethra's House In-Reply-To: <48E36E62.0A2175A4.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: KG wrote: > "Casey Rousseau" writes: > > > The one thing I'm surprised you didn't pull in was the > > mention of her genealogy block. ?I recall it being > > something like nothing entering in and nothing coming out. > > It named her parents, but I don't know if that includes which > House they were (and they almost certainly predate lineage > signifiers in thier names). > > FHYA, chapter 8, p. 103(mmpb): > "as if her maternal and paternal ancestor had appeared from > nowhere at all, begotten her, and vanished." > Actually, I had been thinking of the bit immediately before that quote. (Thank you DD-B et al. for the wonders of searchable text!) "Her lineage block, similarly, is in the form of a downward-pointing arrowhead or triangle, entirely self-contained, with no lines either entering or emerging, as if her maternal ..." Interestingly, the book search has 'begat' rather than 'begotten'. DD-B, did you mention something about the source for the search text? I know I will find it invaluable. If I can recall a word or two, I don't have to be completely AFB! Woohoo. C. From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Oct 14 08:48:45 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 14 Oct 2003 10:48:45 -0500 Subject: Sethra's House In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Casey Rousseau" writes: > KG wrote: > > "Casey Rousseau" writes: > > > > > The one thing I'm surprised you didn't pull in was the > > > mention of her genealogy block. ?I recall it being > > > something like nothing entering in and nothing coming out. > > > > It named her parents, but I don't know if that includes which > > House they were (and they almost certainly predate lineage > > signifiers in thier names). > > > > FHYA, chapter 8, p. 103(mmpb): > > "as if her maternal and paternal ancestor had appeared from > > nowhere at all, begotten her, and vanished." > > > > Actually, I had been thinking of the bit immediately before that quote. > (Thank you DD-B et al. for the wonders of searchable text!) "Her lineage > block, similarly, is in the form of a downward-pointing arrowhead or > triangle, entirely self-contained, with no lines either entering or > emerging, as if her maternal ..." > > Interestingly, the book search has 'begat' rather than 'begotten'. DD-B, > did you mention something about the source for the search text? I know I > will find it invaluable. If I can recall a word or two, I don't have to be > completely AFB! Woohoo. It's not there yet because I have a Clever Long-Term Plan (namely that that info will be encoded within the book files, and pulled out from there, so I don't have to update it in two places). A couple of the books in there now are from Steven's files, which will be to various degrees different from the published version. (In this case they're not preferred, they were just more available). -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera mailing lists: From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Oct 14 11:09:05 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 14 Oct 2003 13:09:05 -0500 Subject: Book text search Message-ID: I went ahead and put in the book edition information, which incidentally also shows you clearly which books are currently indexed (only 6 so far). I believe somebody from the list provided us with the scanned text of one of the books, and should be credited for it. If you're still around, speak up! And if anybody has electronic texts of any of the books not currently indexed, do please get in touch. *This* use of the electronic text appears to be legitemate (Steven approves, and Tor didn't object). My experience with the first three Vlad novels was that it took me just about 2 hours to scan, OCR, and do enough proofreading, using a somewhat slow scanner (chosen for its photo capabilities) and Abby Finereader Pro (highly recommended; available in a 15-hour demo version). Obviously a Paarfi novel would take longer! (I did use a sacrificial copy, cutting the binding off, to make the page handling easier; this is a less attractive option for newer books where cheap used paperbacks aren't available). -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera mailing lists: From davids at kithrup.com Tue Oct 14 13:28:23 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 13:28:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New dragaera.info site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I assume you know that the message archive is utterly broken. The event entering page could use some work. I put in the release of SETHRA LAVODE, just to see how it works, and noticed that (a) it doesn't state what format the date & time should be put in (b) end date isn't really applicable for such an event and (c) "State" isn't applicable either for an "All USA" thing, yet the form required it. Are the events entered directly into a database, or are the queued for review by a human, i.e., you the administrator? At any rate, I noticed that it doesn't show up immediately. I'm not sure if that's because the submit failed, the calendar doesn't show anything that far in advance, or it's still in the queue. From davids at kithrup.com Tue Oct 14 13:37:48 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 13:37:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Book text search In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 14 Oct 2003, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > >And if anybody has electronic texts of any of the books not currently >indexed, do please get in touch. > Abby Finereader Pro (highly recommended; available in a 15-hour demo >version). Obviously a Paarfi novel would take longer! (I did use a >sacrificial copy, cutting the binding off, to make the page handling >easier; this is a less attractive option for newer books where cheap >used paperbacks aren't available). I bought a tattered copy of ORCA in a library sale, and I was planning to do as you suggest above if time ever allows. Just out of curiosity, should only the text be OCRed, or do you want the page numbers as well? I ask because I notice that the page numbers appear to be in among the text of PG you have in the current system (I haven't done any exhaustive testing, though). From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Oct 14 16:41:17 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 19:41:17 -0400 Subject: Sethra's House Message-ID: <4078845A.266F1373.00048EA6@aol.com> "Casey Rousseau" writes: > KG wrote: >> FHYA, chapter 8, p. 103(mmpb): >> "as if her maternal and paternal ancestor had appeared >> from nowhere at all, begotten her, and vanished." > > Interestingly, the book search has 'begat' rather than > 'begotten'. ?DD-B, did you mention something about the > source for the search text? ?I know I will find it > invaluable. ?If I can recall a word or two, I don't have to > be completely AFB! ?Woohoo. In case anyone wants to track text variance between editions, the "begotten" I quoted is from the Tor massmarket, 2nd printing. --KG From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Oct 14 16:50:17 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 14 Oct 2003 18:50:17 -0500 Subject: Phoenix page Message-ID: Anybody know what happened to ? And most especially if there's a valid URL for it somewhere else? -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From rone at ennui.org Tue Oct 14 16:58:26 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (roger n. tospott) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 16:58:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Phoenix page In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031014235826.4A86526C35@boredom.ennui.org> David Dyer-Bennet writes: Anybody know what happened to ? And most especially if there's a valid URL for it somewhere else? Try brust, not Brust. rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From davids at kithrup.com Tue Oct 14 16:59:45 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 16:59:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Phoenix page In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 14 Oct 2003, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >Anybody know what happened to >? And most especially if >there's a valid URL for it somewhere else? This works: http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~phoenix/brust/ From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue Oct 14 18:52:46 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 18:52:46 -0700 Subject: Phoenix page In-Reply-To: <20031014235826.4A86526C35@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20031014235826.4A86526C35@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <20031015015246.GA31455@ofb.net> On Tue, Oct 14, 2003 at 04:58:26PM -0700, roger n. tospott wrote: > David Dyer-Bennet writes: > Anybody know what happened to > ? And most especially if > there's a valid URL for it somewhere else? > > Try brust, not Brust. Yeah. Where'd you get the Brust version, memory? I'll also note that dropping the Brust and going to the top level ~phoenix/ would show a link to the brust/ site (and everything else). -xx- Damien X-) From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Oct 14 20:20:38 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 14 Oct 2003 22:20:38 -0500 Subject: Phoenix page In-Reply-To: <20031015015246.GA31455@ofb.net> References: <20031014235826.4A86526C35@boredom.ennui.org> <20031015015246.GA31455@ofb.net> Message-ID: Damien Sullivan writes: > On Tue, Oct 14, 2003 at 04:58:26PM -0700, roger n. tospott wrote: > > David Dyer-Bennet writes: > > Anybody know what happened to > > ? And most especially if > > there's a valid URL for it somewhere else? > > > > Try brust, not Brust. > > Yeah. Where'd you get the Brust version, memory? Dunno. I seem to get intermittent errors on the brust version sometimes, but it isn't happening right now. I think this helped contribute to confusion. > I'll also note that dropping the Brust and going to the top level ~phoenix/ > would show a link to the brust/ site (and everything else). I did find that, too. But it was when I was having trouble. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Wed Oct 15 03:34:01 2003 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 05:34:01 -0500 Subject: Book text search References: Message-ID: *raises hand* I scanned and gave you the edited OCR work for The Phoenix Guards, cut the spine and all, poor wife actually read it like that afterwards. I also have done the scanning portion of Issola but have not yet done the proof reading and formatting, which really is what took the longest the last time. I hope to get on with that before the end of the next month, but I can't make any firm promises. If you are keeping track of work credits for the scans somewhere: Michael Angelo Tripp-Russo (TPG) Also, just so ya'll know I'll be Unsubscribing this address and Re-subscribing under a new address: Gametech / Voltronalpha at hotmail.com now = michaelangelo at tripp-russo.com - Angelo ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Dyer-Bennet" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 1:09 PM Subject: Book text search > I went ahead and put in the book edition information, which > incidentally also shows you clearly which books are currently indexed > (only 6 so far). > > I believe somebody from the list provided us with the scanned text of > one of the books, and should be credited for it. If you're still > around, speak up! > > And if anybody has electronic texts of any of the books not currently > indexed, do please get in touch. *This* use of the electronic text > appears to be legitemate (Steven approves, and Tor didn't object). My > experience with the first three Vlad novels was that it took me just > about 2 hours to scan, OCR, and do enough proofreading, using a > somewhat slow scanner (chosen for its photo capabilities) and Abby > Finereader Pro (highly recommended; available in a 15-hour demo > version). Obviously a Paarfi novel would take longer! (I did use a > sacrificial copy, cutting the binding off, to make the page handling > easier; this is a less attractive option for newer books where cheap > used paperbacks aren't available). > -- > David Dyer-Bennet, , > RKBA: > Photos: Snapshots: > Dragaera mailing lists: > From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Wed Oct 15 03:46:18 2003 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 05:46:18 -0500 Subject: Book text search Message-ID: Just realized, you already have Issola, drat, I remember now that I did that one before TPG. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gametech" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 5:34 AM Subject: Re: Book text search > *raises hand* I scanned and gave you the edited OCR work for The Phoenix > Guards, cut the spine and all, poor wife actually read it like that > afterwards. I also have done the scanning portion of Issola but have not yet > done the proof reading and formatting, which really is what took the longest > the last time. I hope to get on with that before the end of the next month, > but I can't make any firm promises. > > If you are keeping track of work credits for the scans somewhere: > Michael Angelo Tripp-Russo (TPG) > > Also, just so ya'll know I'll be Unsubscribing this address and > Re-subscribing under a new address: > Gametech / Voltronalpha at hotmail.com now = michaelangelo at tripp-russo.com > > - Angelo > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Dyer-Bennet" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 1:09 PM > Subject: Book text search > > > > I went ahead and put in the book edition information, which > > incidentally also shows you clearly which books are currently indexed > > (only 6 so far). > > > > I believe somebody from the list provided us with the scanned text of > > one of the books, and should be credited for it. If you're still > > around, speak up! > > > > And if anybody has electronic texts of any of the books not currently > > indexed, do please get in touch. *This* use of the electronic text > > appears to be legitemate (Steven approves, and Tor didn't object). My > > experience with the first three Vlad novels was that it took me just > > about 2 hours to scan, OCR, and do enough proofreading, using a > > somewhat slow scanner (chosen for its photo capabilities) and Abby > > Finereader Pro (highly recommended; available in a 15-hour demo > > version). Obviously a Paarfi novel would take longer! (I did use a > > sacrificial copy, cutting the binding off, to make the page handling > > easier; this is a less attractive option for newer books where cheap > > used paperbacks aren't available). > > -- > > David Dyer-Bennet, , > > RKBA: > > Photos: Snapshots: > > > Dragaera mailing lists: > > > From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Oct 15 09:30:30 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 15 Oct 2003 11:30:30 -0500 Subject: Book text search In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Gametech" writes: > Just realized, you already have Issola, drat, I remember now that I did that > one before TPG. The copy I have isn't from you; it's converted from Steven's manuscript file (I still have the pieces in my working subdirectory). So if you *do* scan Issola, I could use that; the published version is the preferred text to index. Not a high priority to upgrade, compared to getting new books in, though. Thanks for reminding me who scanned TPG, too; that's in the CVS and will show up the next time I update the production site. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From voltronalpha at hotmail.com Wed Oct 15 14:12:12 2003 From: voltronalpha at hotmail.com (Gametech) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 16:12:12 -0500 Subject: Book text search References: Message-ID: Ohh goody, well then I'll continue with my previous plan, unless there is someone who has nothing to do at the moment and wants to do an issola proofread/edit right now, if so contact me directly. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Dyer-Bennet" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 11:30 AM Subject: Re: Book text search > "Gametech" writes: > > > Just realized, you already have Issola, drat, I remember now that I did that > > one before TPG. > > The copy I have isn't from you; it's converted from Steven's > manuscript file (I still have the pieces in my working subdirectory). > So if you *do* scan Issola, I could use that; the published version is > the preferred text to index. Not a high priority to upgrade, compared > to getting new books in, though. > > Thanks for reminding me who scanned TPG, too; that's in the CVS and > will show up the next time I update the production site. > -- > David Dyer-Bennet, , > RKBA: > Photos: Snapshots: > Dragaera/Steven Brust: > From mam at theworld.com Wed Oct 15 14:21:12 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 17:21:12 -0400 Subject: C. Sophronia Cleebers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Oct 2003, David Silberstein wrote: # # (I sent this to the esteemed and noted philologist Dr. Whom # on 18 Sep 2003, and, after receiving no response, I am # assuming that the message had the misfortune to become lost # in the aether, perhaps due to the problems with his Internet # Service Provider [1] of which he complained recently here. If # the good doctor has in fact received this message, and has # simply not had the time to respond to its contents, I humbly # apologize for the redundant repetition of this duplicate # missive, which I am also sending to the list in the faint # hope that the mailing list might get through where my own # mail server was not in fact able.) I'm stealing time from work to look at this mailbox and forwarding this to my office address. I've moved to Philadelphia and ordered broadband, and hope to set it up tonight; but it may be weeks before I can get back to anything like activity on this estimable list, as we are clearing out the Massachusetts house and have accepted a purchase offer on it. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From davids at kithrup.com Wed Oct 15 18:33:57 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:33:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A Brustian quote Message-ID: I went to the Lois McMaster Bujold reading/signing the other night[1], and one of the questions that came up was about the process of writing. She referenced Roger Zelazny as saying "Trust your demon" (where "demon" is understood in the ancient Greek sense of your own internal voice or creative genius, and should perhaps be spelled "daimon"). Anyway, she added that Steve Brust had added a codicil: Zelazny - Trust your demon. Brust - Trust your demon, don't trust mine. Words to keep in mind when reading anything he writes. [1] A tale of the German-Central European analog to Chalion, about a sleepwalker who dreams of a memory of wolf sacrifices. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Oct 15 23:23:35 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 23:23:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A Brustian quote In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Oct 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > ... She referenced Roger Zelazny as saying "Trust your demon" > (where "demon" is understood in the ancient Greek sense of your own > internal voice or creative genius, and should perhaps be spelled > "daimon"). Anyway, she added that Steve Brust had added a codicil: I like "daemon", which Philip Pullman (of Northern Lights fame, esp. for The Golden Compass) likes too. From bio_phy at hotmail.com Thu Oct 16 08:52:46 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 10:52:46 -0500 Subject: A Brustian quote Message-ID: I do, too, because it refers to a concept and not a literal fallen angel, a spirit being of the same name. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ "Almost any act of (creative) expression is an act of courage. Whenever you write (something) and you show it to someone else, it's an act of courage because it's your life, it's who you are and you're laying it out on the table and you're either going to be rejected or accepted." Terry Scott Taylor > > ... She referenced Roger Zelazny as saying "Trust your demon" > > (where "demon" is understood in the ancient Greek sense of your own > > internal voice or creative genius, and should perhaps be spelled > > "daimon"). Anyway, she added that Steve Brust had added a codicil: > >I like "daemon", which Philip Pullman (of Northern Lights fame, esp. for >The Golden Compass) likes too. _________________________________________________________________ Surf and talk on the phone at the same time with broadband Internet access. Get high-speed for as low as $29.95/month (depending on the local service providers in your area). https://broadband.msn.com From davids at kithrup.com Thu Oct 16 10:37:17 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 10:37:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A Brustian quote In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Oct 2003, Johne Cook wrote: >I do, too, because it refers to a concept and not a literal fallen >angel, a spirit being of the same name. > "fallen angel", bah. And for that matter, there's also this: "That's true, Mr.--Mr.--Demon," said the boy. "Excuse me if I don't get your name right, but I understood you to say you are a demon." "Certainly. The Demon of Electricity." "But electricity is a good thing, you know, and--and--" "Well?" "I've always understood that demons were bad things," added Rob, boldly. "Not necessarily," returned his visitor. "If you will take the trouble to consult your dictionary, you will find that demons may be either good or bad, like any other class of beings. Originally all demons were good, yet of late years people have come to consider all demons evil. I do not know why. Should you read Hesiod you will find he says: 'Soon was a world of holy demons made, Aerial spirits, by great Jove designed To be on earth the guardians of mankind.'" "But Jove was himself a myth," objected Rob, who had been studying mythology. The Demon shrugged his shoulders. "Then take the words of Mr. Shakespeare, to whom you all defer," he replied. "Do you not remember that he says: 'Thy demon (that's thy spirit which keeps thee) is Noble, courageous, high, unmatchable.'" "Oh, if Shakespeare says it, that's all right," answered the boy. "But it seems you're more like a genius, for you answer the summons of the Master Key of Electricity in the same way Aladdin's genius answered the rubbing of the lamp." "To be sure. A demon is also a genius; and a genius is a demon," said the Being. "What matters a name? I am here to do your bidding." -- The Master Key, by L. Frank Baum And as for spelling it one way or the other, I note that the OED says: Socrates himself claimed to be guided, not by a /daimon/ [delta-alpha-iota_accent-mu-omega-nu] or d?mon, but by a /daimonion/ [delta-alpha-iota-mu-omicron_accent-nu-iota-omicron-nu], divinum quiddam (Cicero), a certain divine principle or agency, an inward monitor or oracle. It was his accusers who represented this as a personal d?mon, and the same was done by the Christian Fathers (under the influence of sense 2), whence the English use of the word, as in the quotations. The OED has the Shakespeare quote as well, and it's from /Antony and Cleopatra/, just in case anyone is interested. From warlord at dragon.com Thu Oct 16 10:52:44 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 13:52:44 -0400 Subject: A Brustian quote In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The spelling is not nearly asrevealing, as the accent which trully tell the tale. I refer you to the authoritative Jamacain beach guide: De mon. An authoritative figure Usage: Hey mon. I gots to see de mon about a yob. W > -----Original Message----- > From: David Silberstein [mailto:davids at kithrup.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 1:37 PM > To: Dragaera List > Subject: Re: A Brustian quote > > > On Thu, 16 Oct 2003, Johne Cook wrote: > > >I do, too, because it refers to a concept and not a literal fallen > >angel, a spirit being of the same name. > > > > "fallen angel", bah. > > And for that matter, there's also this: > > "That's true, Mr.--Mr.--Demon," said the boy. "Excuse me if I > don't get your name right, but I understood you to say you are a > demon." > > "Certainly. The Demon of Electricity." > > "But electricity is a good thing, you know, and--and--" > > "Well?" > > "I've always understood that demons were bad things," added Rob, > boldly. > > "Not necessarily," returned his visitor. "If you will take the > trouble to consult your dictionary, you will find that demons may > be either good or bad, like any other class of beings. Originally > all demons were good, yet of late years people have come to > consider all demons evil. I do not know why. Should you read > Hesiod you will find he says: > > > 'Soon was a world of holy demons made, > Aerial spirits, by great Jove designed > To be on earth the guardians of mankind.'" > > > "But Jove was himself a myth," objected Rob, who had been > studying mythology. > > The Demon shrugged his shoulders. > > "Then take the words of Mr. Shakespeare, to whom you all defer," he > replied. "Do you not remember that he says: > > > 'Thy demon (that's thy spirit which keeps thee) is > Noble, courageous, high, unmatchable.'" > > > "Oh, if Shakespeare says it, that's all right," answered the boy. > "But it seems you're more like a genius, for you answer the summons > of the Master Key of Electricity in the same way Aladdin's genius > answered the rubbing of the lamp." > > "To be sure. A demon is also a genius; and a genius is a demon," > said the Being. "What matters a name? I am here to do your bidding." > -- The Master Key, by L. Frank Baum > > > And as for spelling it one way or the other, I note that the OED says: > > Socrates himself claimed to be guided, not by a /daimon/ > [delta-alpha-iota_accent-mu-omega-nu] or d?mon, but by a /daimonion/ > [delta-alpha-iota-mu-omicron_accent-nu-iota-omicron-nu], divinum > quiddam (Cicero), a certain divine principle or agency, an inward > monitor or oracle. It was his accusers who represented this as a > personal d?mon, and the same was done by the Christian Fathers > (under the influence of sense 2), whence the English use of the > word, as in the quotations. > > The OED has the Shakespeare quote as well, and it's from /Antony and > Cleopatra/, just in case anyone is interested. > > > From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Oct 16 15:08:19 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 15:08:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A Brustian quote In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: By the way, wasn't "ae" one letter at some point? In Latin anyway we treated "ae" as a long "i" sound, and I think it was treated as one letter metrically - a dipthong. I seem to recall a typewriter with a merged "ae" though. From vtaltos at earthlink.net Thu Oct 16 15:20:05 2003 From: vtaltos at earthlink.net (Malcolm) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 18:20:05 -0400 Subject: A Brustian quote In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003201c39433$a6f93a20$bd00a8c0@.mellon.com.mellonbank.com> Ae is a letter if you consider a "letter" as a "graphical representative of a distinct sound" like the German "s" represented by the "tailed" B, or the "delta" sign that represents the voiced "th" in welsh. Medieval scribes used the AE ligature for the "aye", which was slightly different in vocalization from the long "i," and it survived into the printed world. ..Malcolm -----Original Message----- From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU] Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 6:08 PM To: Dragaera List Subject: Re: A Brustian quote By the way, wasn't "ae" one letter at some point? In Latin anyway we treated "ae" as a long "i" sound, and I think it was treated as one letter metrically - a dipthong. I seem to recall a typewriter with a merged "ae" though. From calianng_graves at yahoo.com Fri Oct 17 01:36:49 2003 From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 01:36:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sethra's House In-Reply-To: <000601c391f0$d49a33c0$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> Message-ID: <20031017083649.11484.qmail@web21101.mail.yahoo.com> If I recall correctly, it is in Issola, Chapter 14, page 217 of the paperback version in which Sethra Lavode says: "If I ever have both of those at once, I'll consider my existence fulfilled and become part of the rock of Dzur Mountain again." As for Sethra Lavode's geneology, consider Chapter 13 of Issola again, page 199 of the paperback version, which Sethra says: "The Lavodes were created to to handle threats or potential threats to the Empire that were fundamentally non-military." Couple those statements with other things, like the fact that Sethra's geneology scan looks like an arrow, and I think you can draw your own conclusions. That one word, *created*, says a lot, doesn't it? This, of course, does not mean that Steve, in one of his many "torture the reader" moods, might not decide to come up with parents, grandparents and an entire family for Sethra Lavode, out of the blue, just because he is verbally sadistic. However, that is the what is known so far. And no, I have not gotten my hands on the manuscript for the last volumn of "The Viscount of Adrilanka" yet, so I am only going by what I have put together from the published books. I may change my mind after I have done page-proofs. Sethra the Younger is a Dragon. The Sorceress in Green is a Yendi. Peace, Caliann *Owned and Operated by the Grand Poohbah Cheese of the Universe* bonham15 wrote: ding!.. its been speculated that she is quite simply a part of dzur mountain too.. it is she and she is it.. regardless he was around when kieron and the band of merry souls now reincarnated were there.. and she was the one who saw what "vlad" was going to do and did not move to stop it. the only thing that really sticks in my mind was her musing about the chance to go to sleep again at some time. memory of where escapes me. andy "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Fri Oct 17 09:49:58 2003 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 09:49:58 -0700 Subject: Sethra's House Message-ID: *snip* > >Couple those statements with other things, like the fact that Sethra's >geneology scan looks like an arrow, and I think you can draw your own >conclusions. That one word, *created*, says a lot, doesn't it? > >This, of course, does not mean that Steve, in one of his many "torture the >reader" moods, might not decide to come up with parents, grandparents and >an entire family for Sethra Lavode, out of the blue, just because he is >verbally sadistic. However, that is the what is known so far. What about Roila Lavode et. al., (admittedly, they perished in the Disaster, but still . . .) I believe they band of Lavodes is directly referred to as a family (almost a House?) James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN _________________________________________________________________ Cheer a special someone with a fun Halloween eCard from American Greetings! Go to http://www.msn.americangreetings.com/index_msn.pd?source=msne134 From bonham15 at cox.net Fri Oct 17 10:40:29 2003 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 12:40:29 -0500 Subject: Sethra's House References: Message-ID: <002501c394d5$c1ccb870$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> lavodes are recruited. i believe tazendra in fact, is now a lavode... > What about Roila Lavode et. al., (admittedly, they perished in the Disaster, > but still . . .) > I believe they band of Lavodes is directly referred to as a family (almost a > House?) > > James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN > > _________________________________________________________________ > Cheer a special someone with a fun Halloween eCard from American Greetings! > Go to http://www.msn.americangreetings.com/index_msn.pd?source=msne134 > From laurao at ix.netcom.com Fri Oct 17 12:19:18 2003 From: laurao at ix.netcom.com (Laura Osgood) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:19:18 -0400 Subject: A Brustian quote In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002001c394e3$90970810$b552f7a5@nightcrawler> -----Original Message----- Brust - Trust your demon, don't trust mine. ...unless it's giving you a poker lesson... 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Nonymous" yukio_toko (at) yahoo.com (email) yukiotoko imp-thing zaphod (at) charter.net (email) "Greg Schwartz" zarkon (at) illrepute.org (email) John Klein From mam at theworld.com Fri Oct 17 18:54:36 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 21:54:36 -0400 Subject: POLL: Who is she? In-Reply-To: <3392B159.5A9EE2CF.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: #Who do you think is pictured on the cover of _Sethra Lavode_? #http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0312855818.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg # #Did I leave anyone out? Rocza? -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mam at theworld.com Fri Oct 17 19:00:32 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 22:00:32 -0400 Subject: The title was originally "The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain" In-Reply-To: <20031006211234.41135.qmail@web40101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Oct 2003, Toubib wrote: #>From the front of Jhereg Dzur is pronounced tser. But that list -- at least the first time it came out -- had some problems, such as describing the sound of "jh" as... "jh", which has no standard, normal, usual, conventional, or accepted sound for English-speakers. Steve's since made it clear that it's supposed to be "zh" -- that is, the sound of the "s" in "pleasure" -- and IIRC has fixed it in subsequent editions. But "dz" as "dz" is perfectly reasonable to me. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Fri Oct 17 19:16:45 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 22:16:45 -0400 Subject: Sethra Lavode-the woman not the book In-Reply-To: <20031009185919.58718.qmail@web40112.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Oct 2003, Toubib wrote: #You can fight you way into the House of the Dzur, but #that wouldn't change you features. But you would think #that she is of both Houses also since her device is of #a Dragon's Head and Dzur's Claw. I remember that her "lineage block" shows the Dragon and Dzur symbols, but does it say anywhere that they're dragon head and dzur claw, or anything else specific? -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mam at theworld.com Fri Oct 17 19:37:52 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 22:37:52 -0400 Subject: Sethra's House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Oct 2003, David Silberstein wrote: # #[2] Cue song: [...] Why, THANK you, sir! -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname http://world.std.com/~mam/filk.html Now on the Filker's Bardic Webring! http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From toubib21 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 18 00:33:12 2003 From: toubib21 at yahoo.com (Toubib) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 00:33:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sethra Lavode-the woman not the book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031018073312.56979.qmail@web40103.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mark A Mandel wrote: [snip] > I remember that her "lineage block" shows the Dragon > and Dzur symbols, > but does it say anywhere that they're dragon head > and dzur claw, or > anything else specific? > > -- Mark A. Mandel Yes. 500 years after(paperback) Page 103, paragraph 2, line 4. ===== Doc www.toubib.us __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From toubib21 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 18 00:45:36 2003 From: toubib21 at yahoo.com (Toubib) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 00:45:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The title was originally "The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031018074536.74645.qmail@web40101.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mark A Mandel wrote: > But that list -- at least the first time it came out > -- had some > problems, such as describing the sound of "jh" as... > "jh", which has no > standard, normal, usual, conventional, or accepted > sound for > English-speakers. Steve's since made it clear that > it's supposed to be > "zh" -- that is, the sound of the "s" in "pleasure" > -- and IIRC has > fixed it in subsequent editions. > > But "dz" as "dz" is perfectly reasonable to me. > > -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, > Orthoepist, and > Philological Busybody > a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel Never personally had a problem jhereg, but are you saying dzur is pronounced exactly like it's spelled? ===== Doc www.toubib.us __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From casey at the-bat.net Sat Oct 18 04:12:32 2003 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 07:12:32 -0400 Subject: The title was originally "The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain" In-Reply-To: <20031018074536.74645.qmail@web40101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001201c39568$ba404f20$7702a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Toubib wrote > Never personally had a problem jhereg, but are you > saying dzur is pronounced exactly like it's spelled? My understanding is that the initial consonant in dzur is comparable to the initial consonant in the Russian title for emperor which comes from ceasar and is usually transliterated either Czar or Tsar. Mark, or someone else with direct experience with Hungarian care to confirm? CAsey From calianng_graves at yahoo.com Sat Oct 18 07:16:05 2003 From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 07:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sethra Lavode-the woman not the book Message-ID: <20031018141605.29656.qmail@web21102.mail.yahoo.com> Toubib wrote: Yes. 500 years after(paperback) Page 103, paragraph 2, line 4. ===== Doc www.toubib.us That would be 500 Years After, Hardback copy, page 98, paragraph two, line 4. It is interesting to note that the paragraph previous to that states: "The earliest authentic records of Sethra predate the founding of the Lavodes, and consist of a rough drawing of her device, which appears to have remained unchanged throughout her life, consisting of a white Dragon's Head and Dzur Claw against black--unquestionably the simplest device in use at the time, and the most unadorned on record from any time, saving only the Silver Sword on Black of the most ancient line of Kieron the Conqueror himself." Since also in that chapter, Paarfi tells how Sethra was a *living* woman during both the Iorich Reign of the Fourth Cycle AND the Dragon Reign of the Fourteenth Cycle, becoming undead sometime after that, well, I don't think we'll ever know where she came from, unless Steve decides to be very nice and have her tell us. My recollection is that each reign must last a minimum of 289 years (please correct me if I am in error) and that the average lifespan of a Dragaeran is 2000 years. Add up ALL those reigns and , well, that's a whole lot of years, at least 5 times the normal lifespan. And she didn't die until AFTER that? In 500 Years After, Sethra is claimed to be pre-historic. I believe it is in Dragon (again, I could be wrong) that she is claimed to be pre-Empire, but I am not sure I believe that as we all know how Vlad tends to lie a bit. In any case, she *could* be one of the ancient progenitors before the Houses. She could be of one of the now extinct Houses. Heck, she could be half Jenoine. Unless Steve decides to let that secret out, we shall remain in the dark. Peace, Caliann *Owned and Operated by the Grand Poohbah Cheese of the Universe* "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search From pgranzeau at cox.net Sat Oct 18 10:51:52 2003 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 12:51:52 -0500 Subject: The title was originally "The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain" In-Reply-To: <001201c39568$ba404f20$7702a8c0@Prophnt2.local> References: <20031018074536.74645.qmail@web40101.mail.yahoo.com> <001201c39568$ba404f20$7702a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031018124842.02d2b3d0@pop.east.cox.net> At 06:12 10/18/2003, Casey Rousseau wrote: >Toubib wrote > > Never personally had a problem jhereg, but are you > > saying dzur is pronounced exactly like it's spelled? > >My understanding is that the initial consonant in dzur is comparable to the >initial consonant in the Russian title for emperor which comes from ceasar >and is usually transliterated either Czar or Tsar. Mark, or someone else >with direct experience with Hungarian care to confirm? An initial "dz" is not normal in English, but easy enough to pronounce, as we have plenty of examples of words with an initial "d", and as the sound is voiced, following it with a "z", also voiced, is easy enough. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From davids at kithrup.com Sun Oct 19 14:19:18 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 14:19:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C. Sophronia Cleebers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Oct 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > >the *afterword* is copyrighted to Teresa Nielsen Hayden, and while I >am sure that she is as noble and excellent as Emma Bull, I am also >sure that she is a completely different person. > By the way, in one of the in-joke or references sectiosn, you might wish to note that "Prince Tapman and Lady Tersa of Haynels" (FHYA, chapter 22, pg 334 in the PB ed) is almost certainly a reference to "Patrick and Teresa Nielsen Hayden". Just so you know. From davids at kithrup.com Sun Oct 19 14:33:02 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 14:33:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Book text search In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 15 Oct 2003, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > >The copy I have isn't from you; it's converted from Steven's >manuscript file (I still have the pieces in my working subdirectory). > Just out of curiosity, when the text of the book and the e-manuscript differ, which should be considered "authoritative"? I notice that the line which the text search brings up as "Today my brother-in-law is Warlord, and his younger son is my chainman [...]" is "Today my cousin is Warlord (etc)" in the printed book. In both cases, "cousin"/"brother-in-law" is repeated by Khaavren a few lines down. Of course, they could both be "correct", that is, contextually true, but I wonder which one was *meant*. On the other hand, the electronic manuscript appears to have more than a few places where "Rollondar" is spelled "Rollandar" (which I only found because I mistyped it myself at first). These appear to have been corrected in the printed book. From genji_77 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 19 17:37:36 2003 From: genji_77 at hotmail.com (Genji) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 17:37:36 -0700 Subject: Lord Fenarr Message-ID: I have recently read the Brokedown Palace for the first time and was struck by a similarity to a scene in The Phoenix Guards. My thinking is that the scene in the peperfields when Khavren kills the horse of the easterner Crionofenarr, that it is actually the scene discussed in brokedown palace when Lord Fenarr goes with Bolk to the land of farie and Bolk dies for Lord Fenarr. Has there been discussion on this in the past? From dd-b at dd-b.net Sun Oct 19 19:56:16 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 19 Oct 2003 21:56:16 -0500 Subject: Book text search In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David Silberstein writes: > On 15 Oct 2003, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > > > >The copy I have isn't from you; it's converted from Steven's > >manuscript file (I still have the pieces in my working subdirectory). > > > > Just out of curiosity, when the text of the book and the e-manuscript > differ, which should be considered "authoritative"? > > I notice that the line which the text search brings up as "Today my > brother-in-law is Warlord, and his younger son is my chainman [...]" > is "Today my cousin is Warlord (etc)" in the printed book. > > In both cases, "cousin"/"brother-in-law" is repeated by Khaavren a few > lines down. Of course, they could both be "correct", that is, > contextually true, but I wonder which one was *meant*. > > On the other hand, the electronic manuscript appears to have more than > a few places where "Rollondar" is spelled "Rollandar" (which I only > found because I mistyped it myself at first). These appear to have > been corrected in the printed book. In general the printed book would be assumed to be correct. The manuscript is missing the last round of editorial/authorial corrections. Of course, new mistakes were probably added to the printed book that aren't in the manuscript, too. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From bph7 at cornell.edu Sun Oct 19 20:52:42 2003 From: bph7 at cornell.edu (Ben Hiles) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 23:52:42 -0400 Subject: Lord Fenarr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20031019234909.03c229b0@postoffice7.mail.cornell.edu> Yes, it almost certainly is. Also note that Kav=Khaavren. --Ben At 05:37 PM 10/19/2003 -0700, Genji wrote: >I have recently read the Brokedown Palace for the first time and was struck >by a similarity to a scene in The Phoenix Guards. > >My thinking is that the scene in the peperfields when Khavren kills the >horse of the easterner Crionofenarr, that it is actually the scene discussed >in brokedown palace when Lord Fenarr goes with Bolk to the land of farie and >Bolk dies for Lord Fenarr. > >Has there been discussion on this in the past? From davids at kithrup.com Sun Oct 19 21:41:38 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lord Fenarr In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20031019234909.03c229b0@postoffice7.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Oct 2003, Ben Hiles wrote: [BROKEDOWN PALACE & PHOENIX GUARDS, Crionofenarr == Fenarr] > >Yes, it almost certainly is. Also note that Kav=Khaavren. > Yes, yes. In addition, B?lcsess?g == Wisdom. The question is, which account is more accurate? Also, was it that those Dragaerans who were present simply did not hear the horse talk, did they refrain from discussing what they heard afterwards, or did Paarfi leave that part out of his history because he thought it was too fantastic, not to mentioned raising some unnerving questions about what *really* happened? And so on and so forth. I might suggest that *metaphorically* at least, Khaavren, for one, did seem to hear the voice of Wisdom. Which allows for the possibility that he heard it *literally* from the Horse. But he might have chosen not to speak of it. Or perhaps it's the other way around. Who can say? I note that it's interesting that Paarfi does at least emphasize that the Horse was important to the Dragaerans, which suggests that he wishes to at least hint that there was more to the horse that got in the way of the sorcerous blast than would otherwise be the case. Other horses in his narratives are treated a lot more cavalierly. From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Oct 20 00:42:48 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 02:42:48 -0500 Subject: Lord Fenarr In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.2.20031019234909.03c229b0@postoffice7.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: <20031020074248.GA30682@infodancer.org> On Sun, Oct 19, 2003 at 09:41:38PM -0700, David Silberstein wrote: > Other horses in his narratives are treated a lot more cavalierly. *groan* -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From warlord at dragon.com Mon Oct 20 07:03:20 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 10:03:20 -0400 Subject: Lord Fenarr In-Reply-To: <20031020074248.GA30682@infodancer.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Matthew Hunter [mailto:matthew at infodancer.org] > Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 3:43 AM > To: dragaera list > Subject: Re: Lord Fenarr > > > On Sun, Oct 19, 2003 at 09:41:38PM -0700, David Silberstein > wrote: > > Other horses in his narratives are treated a lot more cavalierly. > > *groan* > David, I agree with Matthew -- that was great! 8^) (with apologies to Homer) Sing to me of the equine Muse, the horse of twists and turns. Of layers and roles. Of duties and dreams. Launch out on her story, Muse, daughter of Zeus, start from where you will-- pun for our time too. "The memberlist never suspected the trojan horse until the pun popped out and caught them all by surprise." I need more coffee.... W Clip-clop..clip-clop.........Clip-clop... --- An Amish drive-by shunning From ike at manor.org Mon Oct 20 11:29:13 2003 From: ike at manor.org (Ike Porter) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:29:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: test, ignore Message-ID: making sure my email's been updated. if i see this, i get a passing grade. From davids at kithrup.com Mon Oct 20 13:50:43 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:50:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lord Fenarr In-Reply-To: <20031020074248.GA30682@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Oct 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: >On Sun, Oct 19, 2003 at 09:41:38PM -0700, David Silberstein > wrote: >> Other horses in his narratives are treated a lot more cavalierly. > >*groan* > I cannot pretend to imagine what has possibly spurred you to bridle at my perfectly equestrian, er, pedestrian choice of language. If you are asking me to rein myself in, I must insist that in the mane, I would prefer not to be saddled with such fetters. From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Mon Oct 20 14:07:48 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 21:07:48 +0000 Subject: The title was originally "The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain" Message-ID: >An initial "dz" is not normal in English, but easy enough to pronounce, as >we have plenty of examples of words with an initial "d", and as the sound >is voiced, following it with a "z", also voiced, is easy enough. Oh, yes, English is so easy to pronunce that when I started to study seriously its pronunciation in Manchester and I came back to Barcelona, my girlfriend did not believe that my new kiss skills were just from the English course ;) _________________________________________________________________ Dale vida a tu correo. Con MSN 8 podr?s incluir fotos y textos increibles. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=es-es&XAPID=517&DI=1055 From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Mon Oct 20 13:56:07 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 20:56:07 +0000 Subject: Sethra's House Message-ID: From: "bonham15" > >lavodes are recruited. i believe tazendra in fact, is now a lavode... > > > > What about Roila Lavode et. al., (admittedly, they perished in the >Disaster, > > but still . . .) > > I believe they band of Lavodes is directly referred to as a family >(almost >a > > House?) > > That's right regarding Tazendra, but I think that Roila and the other Lavodes had a similar genetic inheritance according to the scene descrived in FYA, when a guard tells Kraaven that there are a group of people wearing black, some of them seeming to be dragons and others dzur. Notwithstanding that, I cannot remember if he says that any of them seems to have both characteristics, and if not it can be also that Sethra only recruits Lavodes from those two houses, but if the purpose of the Lavodes is "to handle threats or potential threats to the Empire that were fundamentally non-military", maybe it does not have sense to only recruit members among the two skillest houses in the military art, does it? Maybe some Yendis and Athyras would be useful also, wouldn't they? _________________________________________________________________ Descubre el mayor cat?logo de coches de la Red en MSN Motor. http://motor.msn.es/researchcentre/ From davids at kithrup.com Tue Oct 21 11:37:45 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 11:37:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A-ha. Message-ID: On Thu Oct 16th, 2003 9:58 PM, Steve Brust weblogged: ] In more important news, I'm fighting to get Xemacs working ] like my old emacs, so I can continue on the next Vlad novel. Let's see, what's left... Quite a lot, actually. Hawk, Lyorn, Dzur, Tiassa, Iorich, Tsalmoth, Chreotha, Vallista, Jhegaala, The Final Contract Any guesses as to which one it is, and when it occurs? From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Tue Oct 21 14:48:10 2003 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:48:10 -0700 Subject: A-ha. Message-ID: <200310211448.AA178848046@amish2000.com> ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: David Silberstein Reply-To: David Silberstein Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 11:37:45 -0700 (PDT) >On Thu Oct 16th, 2003 9:58 PM, Steve Brust weblogged: > >] In more important news, I'm fighting to get Xemacs working >] like my old emacs, so I can continue on the next Vlad novel. > >Let's see, what's left... Quite a lot, actually. > >Hawk, Lyorn, Dzur, Tiassa, Iorich, Tsalmoth, Chreotha, Vallista, >Jhegaala, The Final Contract > >Any guesses as to which one it is, and when it occurs? September of 2004, and it will be _Hawk_, because DAYMAR. ? MJ From mam at theworld.com Tue Oct 21 12:05:35 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:05:35 -0400 Subject: Sethra Lavode-the woman not the book In-Reply-To: <20031018073312.56979.qmail@web40103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Oct 2003, Toubib wrote: #--- Mark A Mandel wrote: #[snip] # #> I remember that her "lineage block" shows the Dragon #> and Dzur symbols, #> but does it say anywhere that they're dragon head #> and dzur claw, or #> anything else specific? #> #> -- Mark A. Mandel # #Yes. 500 years after(paperback) Page 103, paragraph 2, #line 4. Ha. Thanks. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From toubib21 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 21 12:07:50 2003 From: toubib21 at yahoo.com (Toubib) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:07:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sethra's House Message-ID: <20031021190750.38276.qmail@web40108.mail.yahoo.com> --- Toubib wrote: > Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 11:38:56 -0700 (PDT) > From: Toubib > Subject: Re: Sethra's House > To: Iv?n Rebollo > > > --- Iv?n Rebollo wrote: > > From: "bonham15" > > > > > > > >lavodes are recruited. i believe tazendra in > fact, > > is now a lavode... > > > > [snip] > > > > Notwithstanding that, I cannot remember if he says > > that any of them seems to > > have both characteristics, and if not it can be > also > > that Sethra only > > recruits Lavodes from those two houses, but if the > > purpose of the Lavodes is > > "to handle threats or potential threats to the > > Empire that were > > fundamentally non-military", maybe it does not > have > > sense to only recruit > > members among the two skillest houses in the > > military art, does it? Maybe > > some Yendis and Athyras would be useful also, > > wouldn't they? > > In FYA p.474 Nett says, "it is to have the choice to > refuse such battles that many of us, who desired > military service, have accepted the black garments > of > our corps." > > I got the feeling that it's mostly Dzur and Dragons > because those are the 2 Houses that like to physical > and sorcerous battle the most. Also Gyorg was a > Dzurlord and not a half breed. > > And the conversation between Khavreen and Sargeant > was > that the 19 or 20 persons gathered where of no > single > House but many appear to be Dzurlords and one or two > > are without doubt Dragonlords, but all were armed > with > sword, daggar, and wizard's rods. > > Also in POTD, Tazendra says that Sethra cause there > to > be more Lavodes, which to me means she creates the > corps, and that they have to be wizards to join it. > > > > ===== > Doc > www.toubib.us > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product > search > http://shopping.yahoo.com > ===== Doc www.toubib.us __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com From davids at kithrup.com Tue Oct 21 12:09:18 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:09:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sethra's House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Oct 2003, Iv?n Rebollo wrote: > >I think that Roila and the other Lavodes had a similar genetic >inheritance according to the scene descrived in FYA, when a guard >tells Kraaven that there are a group of people wearing black, some of >them seeming to be dragons and others dzur. > I am confused as to how you can arrive at the conclusion that they are related based only on the knowledge that they are wearing the same color clothes. Elsewhere, it is stated that Sethra created the Lavodes, which certainly implies to *me* that they were recruited somehow. The quote from the booksearch is (FHYA, chapter 25): They seem to be of no one House, though many appear to be Dzurlords, and one or two are without doubt Dragonlords. >Notwithstanding that, I cannot remember if he says that any of them >seems to have both characteristics, The above quote is indeed somewhat ambiguous. "They seem to be of no one House" *probably* means "the group is made up of individuals who are of different Houses", yet it could also imply that some of those *individuals* are of mixed House. I would tend to doubt that, though. > and if not it can be also that Sethra only recruits Lavodes from >those two houses, but if the purpose of the Lavodes is "to handle >threats or potential threats to the Empire that were fundamentally >non-military", maybe it does not have sense to only recruit members >among the two skillest houses in the military art, does it? Maybe >some Yendis and Athyras would be useful also, wouldn't they? You are entirely correct. However, you will note that this piece of intelligence is being reported by Sergeant, a guard, who might well be expected to notice, and stress in his report, the presence of members of the more martial of the Houses, given that they may be more of a threat. From mam at theworld.com Tue Oct 21 12:10:25 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:10:25 -0400 Subject: Sethra's House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [Caliann the Elf ; one demerit to James for not attributing ;-) -- MAM] #>Couple those statements with other things, like the fact that Sethra's #>geneology scan looks like an arrow, and I think you can draw your own #>conclusions. That one word, *created*, says a lot, doesn't it? #> #>This, of course, does not mean that Steve, in one of his many "torture the #>reader" moods, might not decide to come up with parents, grandparents and #>an entire family for Sethra Lavode, out of the blue, just because he is #>verbally sadistic. However, that is the what is known so far. [James Griffin:] #What about Roila Lavode et. al., (admittedly, they perished in the Disaster, #but still . . .) #I believe they band of Lavodes is directly referred to as a family (almost a #House?) Sure the Lavodes were created. So were the Boy Scouts, but they're not undead or golems. (Yeah, yeah, never mind.) "The Xes" can refer to the group as a group, as well as referring to the members as individuals. It's a structural ambiguity. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mam at theworld.com Tue Oct 21 12:13:09 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:13:09 -0400 Subject: The title was originally "The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain" In-Reply-To: <20031018074536.74645.qmail@web40101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Oct 2003, Toubib wrote: #--- Mark A Mandel wrote: [...] #> But "dz" as "dz" is perfectly reasonable to me. # #Never personally had a problem jhereg, but are you #saying dzur is pronounced exactly like it's spelled? Well, *I* pronounce it exactly as it's spelled, with the "ur" as in "fur". -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mam at theworld.com Tue Oct 21 12:17:31 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:17:31 -0400 Subject: Lord Fenarr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Oct 2003, David Silberstein wrote: #I cannot pretend to imagine what has possibly spurred you to bridle #at my perfectly equestrian, er, pedestrian choice of language. If you #are asking me to rein myself in, I must insist that in the mane, I #would prefer not to be saddled with such fetters. Horsefetters! -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Tue Oct 21 12:24:02 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:24:02 -0400 Subject: Lord Fenarr (fwd) Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Oct 2003, David Silberstein wrote: #On Sun, 19 Oct 2003, Ben Hiles wrote: # #[BROKEDOWN PALACE & PHOENIX GUARDS, Crionofenarr == Fenarr] # #> #>Yes, it almost certainly is. Also note that Kav=Khaavren. #> # #Yes, yes. In addition, B?lcsess?g == Wisdom. The question is, #which account is more accurate? Concerning the names, see http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/misc-cracks.html#DENames. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From davids at kithrup.com Tue Oct 21 12:35:03 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:35:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C. Sophronia Cleebers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Oct 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > >By the way, in one of the in-joke or references sectiosn, you might >wish to note that "Prince Tapman and Lady Tersa of Haynels" (FHYA, >chapter 22, pg 334 in the PB ed) is almost certainly a reference to >"Patrick and Teresa Nielsen Hayden". > And as long as I'm pointing out in-jokes, another one that I have recalled is "the Demon of Knightsbridge", in FHYA, chapter 19, who is almost certainly a reference to SF author Damon Knight (RIP). From mneme at io.com Tue Oct 21 12:39:28 2003 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:39:28 -0500 Subject: A-ha. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16277.35696.80949.660366@fnord.io.com> David Silberstein writes: >On Thu Oct 16th, 2003 9:58 PM, Steve Brust weblogged: >] In more important news, I'm fighting to get Xemacs working >] like my old emacs, so I can continue on the next Vlad novel. I actually think that current FSF Emacsen are much better than recent Xemacs releases -- FSF has caught up a lot, and better syntax highlighing has really pushed me over the edge. But MMV, of course. >Hawk, Lyorn, Dzur, Tiassa, Iorich, Tsalmoth, Chreotha, Vallista, >Jhegaala, The Final Contract Mnn. >Any guesses as to which one it is, and when it occurs? Um. No clue, really; I just want more. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From rone at ennui.org Tue Oct 21 12:56:14 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (roger n. tospott) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 12:56:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A-ha. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031021195614.CFD3626C2D@boredom.ennui.org> David Silberstein writes: Hawk, Lyorn, Dzur, Tiassa, Iorich, Tsalmoth, Chreotha, Vallista, Jhegaala, The Final Contract Any guesses as to which one it is, and when it occurs? My guess: it'll be _Tiassa_, and it'll involve Khaavren. rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From gomi at speakeasy.net Tue Oct 21 13:00:42 2003 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 13:00:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A-ha. In-Reply-To: <20031021195614.CFD3626C2D@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Oct 2003, roger n. tospott wrote: > David Silberstein writes: > Hawk, Lyorn, Dzur, Tiassa, Iorich, Tsalmoth, Chreotha, Vallista, > Jhegaala, The Final Contract > Any guesses as to which one it is, and when it occurs? > > My guess: it'll be _Tiassa_, and it'll involve Khaavren. I'm definitely interested in Tsalmoth, Chreotha, Vallista, and Jhegaala, as these are the animals and Houses about which we know the least. pe vvv had this sig for months, back in the day vvv -- "I wanted to feel that tug of a body as it jerks and kicks while I hold the handle and the life erupts from it like water from the cold springs of the Eastern Mountains. That's what I wanted, and what you want makes you who you are." - Steven Brust, Teckla From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Oct 21 13:04:07 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 13:04:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A-ha. In-Reply-To: <20031021195614.CFD3626C2D@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20031021195614.CFD3626C2D@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 rone at ennui.org wrote: > David Silberstein writes: > Hawk, Lyorn, Dzur, Tiassa, Iorich, Tsalmoth, Chreotha, Vallista, > Jhegaala, The Final Contract > Any guesses as to which one it is, and when it occurs? > > My guess: it'll be _Tiassa_, and it'll involve Khaavren. That makes sense - though maybe Piro instead, or perhaps another Tiassa if that person survives _The Enchantress of Dzur Mountain_. From davids at kithrup.com Tue Oct 21 13:11:53 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 13:11:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lord Fenarr In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Oct 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > >Horsefetters! > GM: And what do you get for *not* rehearsing? CM: You couldn't afford it. From davids at kithrup.com Tue Oct 21 14:30:28 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Concerning Names Message-ID: I've already posted this to RASFW, but for those who don't subscribe: The names "Kieron" - as in "Kieron the Conqueror" - and "Kiera" - as in "Kiera the Thief" - are as Easterner as "Kelly" or "Patrick", in that they are both common variants of fairly common Irish names (It's one of those things that's totally obvious, but only if you already know it). http://www.geocities.com/edgarbook/names/c/ciara.html Etymology: Ciara is a modern, Latin-based, form of the Old Irish name Ciar, or Ciarnat meaning "Dark" and thus, can be a feminine form of Ciar?n, an Irish Gaelic name meaning "Little Dark One". Pronunciation: kee-are-ah, often mispronounced in the United States as see-are-ah Alternates: Ciera, Cierra, Kiara, Kiera, Kierra, Chier. http://www.geocities.com/edgarbook/names/c/ciaran.html Etymology: Ciar?n is an Irish Gaelic name meaning "Little Dark One" History: Ciaran (or Kieran) was an early Irish name that died out before the Middle Ages. As a saint's name, it was probably considered too holy for everyday use. It has been revived in Ireland, and in the United States, to a small degree. Pronunciation: kee-a-rawn, kee-ran. Alternates: Ciaran, Kiaran, Kieren, Kieran, Kieron, Keiran. http://www.behindthename.com/nmc/iri2.html KIERA f Irish Anglicized form of CIARA KIERAN m Irish Anglicized form of CIARAN http://www.behindthename.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?terms=ciara CIARA f Irish Pronounced: KEE-a-ra, KEER-a Feminine form of CIARAN. Saint Ciara was an Irish nun who established a monastery at Kilkeary in the 7th century. http://www.behindthename.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?terms=ciaran CIARAN m Irish Derived from Irish ciar meaning "black" combined with a diminutive suffix. This was the name of two Irish saints: Saint Ciaran the Elder, the patron of the Kingdom of Munster, and Saint Ciaran of Clonmacnoise, the founder of a monastery in the 6th century. http://www.babynamesofireland.com/pages/boy-names-a-c.html So now you know. From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Oct 21 15:04:57 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 21 Oct 2003 17:04:57 -0500 Subject: A-ha. In-Reply-To: <16277.35696.80949.660366@fnord.io.com> References: <16277.35696.80949.660366@fnord.io.com> Message-ID: Joshua Kronengold writes: > David Silberstein writes: > >On Thu Oct 16th, 2003 9:58 PM, Steve Brust weblogged: > >] In more important news, I'm fighting to get Xemacs working > >] like my old emacs, so I can continue on the next Vlad novel. > > I actually think that current FSF Emacsen are much better than recent > Xemacs releases -- FSF has caught up a lot, and better syntax > highlighing has really pushed me over the edge. Then you'll be glad to know I got him switched over to one of those yesterday. And our old hacks to support Sprint file format editing in Emacs still seem to work, which they didn't in Xemacs. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Oct 21 15:06:49 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 21 Oct 2003 17:06:49 -0500 Subject: Sethra's House In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David Silberstein writes: > Elsewhere, it is stated that Sethra created the Lavodes, which > certainly implies to *me* that they were recruited somehow. > > The quote from the booksearch is (FHYA, chapter 25): > > They seem to be of no one House, though many appear to be > Dzurlords, and one or two are without doubt Dragonlords. And it makes sense that those two houses would predominate in a fighting force. However, given what the Lavodes have been described as I'd kinda expect more wizards to be involved. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From davids at kithrup.com Tue Oct 21 15:21:48 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sethra's House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 21 Oct 2003, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >David Silberstein writes: > >> Elsewhere, it is stated that Sethra created the Lavodes, which >> certainly implies to *me* that they were recruited somehow. >> >> The quote from the booksearch is (FHYA, chapter 25): >> >> They seem to be of no one House, though many appear to be >> Dzurlords, and one or two are without doubt Dragonlords. > >And it makes sense that those two houses would predominate in a >fighting force. However, given what the Lavodes have been described >as I'd kinda expect more wizards to be involved. But they are *all* wizards, as I recall. Although perhaps you mean "Houses associated with wizardry", i.e., Athyra (and Dzur, but those were already mentioned). Well, perhaps Sergeant didn't see fit to mention them. From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Oct 21 15:22:10 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 21 Oct 2003 17:22:10 -0500 Subject: Pronunciation Guide Message-ID: We're starting work on a pronunciation guide for the website. This is also being discussed a bit over on rec.arts.sf.written, as some of you know; it kinda grew out of a query somebody reading one of the books posted. I'll bet some of you have specialist knowledge I don't have. If you're also willing to help or point me in the right direction on a couple of issues, that could be really useful. We need a good system for representing the pronunciations in text form. For various reasons I don't think the IPA is a good choice -- mostly that the people looking up these pronunciations won't be familiar with it, and it presents a rather large learning curve. Also that *I'm* not familiar enough with it to use it easily or accurately. So I'm looking for a pre-defined set of "dictionary pronunciation rules" that we can use (so public-domain). Having to create one from scratch is a LOT too much like work, it seems to me. Then, having found one, I would *also* like to annotate the definition to give the IPA names and characters for each of the sounds we're using. And preferably point to a really good IPA site with their own recordings of the sounds (so I don't have to do the work of making them, and run the risk of getting them wrong). (Seems like full-blown Unicode fonts have all the characters needed for IPA representations!). So I'm very open to suggestions on that. The other issue is putting sound clips on our site. I've got working WAV and MP3 clips up for a tiny sample of words, and so far nobody has suggested that any other format is really widespread or greatly superior for this use, so I'm leaning so far towards just providing those two, linked as they are in my sample at . Anybody with sound for whom those don't play? Anybody know a way to make them play directly in more browsers (right now it seems very browser-dependent whether they just play, or pop up another page with the player)? -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From rone at ennui.org Tue Oct 21 15:26:59 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (roger n. tospott) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:26:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pronunciation Guide In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031021222659.0A1CD26C32@boredom.ennui.org> David Dyer-Bennet writes: We need a good system for representing the pronunciations in text form. For various reasons I don't think the IPA is a good choice -- mostly that the people looking up these pronunciations won't be familiar with it, and it presents a rather large learning curve. What do you mean by "IPA"? I like the pronunciation guide at m-w.com; it seems fairly simple and effective. rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From gomi at speakeasy.net Tue Oct 21 15:28:08 2003 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 15:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pronunciation Guide In-Reply-To: <20031021222659.0A1CD26C32@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Oct 2003, roger n. tospott wrote: > David Dyer-Bennet writes: > We need a good system for representing the pronunciations in text > form. For various reasons I don't think the IPA is a good choice -- > mostly that the people looking up these pronunciations won't be > familiar with it, and it presents a rather large learning curve. > > What do you mean by "IPA"? It's a sort of pale ale. If you drink enough of it, eventually you'll make the range of possible human sounds. pe From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Oct 21 16:19:54 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 21 Oct 2003 18:19:54 -0500 Subject: Pronunciation Guide In-Reply-To: <20031021222659.0A1CD26C32@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20031021222659.0A1CD26C32@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: rone at ennui.org (roger n. tospott) writes: > David Dyer-Bennet writes: > We need a good system for representing the pronunciations in text > form. For various reasons I don't think the IPA is a good choice -- > mostly that the people looking up these pronunciations won't be > familiar with it, and it presents a rather large learning curve. > > What do you mean by "IPA"? International Phonetic Alphabet. I think it's what professionals use when they're dealing with these issues. . > I like the pronunciation guide at m-w.com; it seems fairly simple and > effective. But probably not public-domain. Actually it's more complicated than I really wanted; I notice a number of cases where they can't even find an English word to illustrate the sound. And what's with arbitrarily reversing the symbols \o\ and \ä\ -- they seem to be used to indicate the opposite of what makes sense (the o used to indicate modified a sounds, the a used to indicate the common o sound). Although this may be one of those situations where we should make it as simple as possible, and no simpler; I may be trying to make it simpler than is possible. But the big thing that bugs me about IPA beyond the complexity is that they don't use any of the obvious associations, they always find some weird way to do it. This is probably to make it less English-specific; but since my audience is specifically English-speakers (the web site isn't in any other languages), that's a drawback for me. Hmmm; I suppose it might be possible to use the MW system by reference, not copying anything. Maybe. Or maybe I'll have to invent one in the end anyway. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From richard at pikachu.harvard.edu Tue Oct 21 16:36:24 2003 From: richard at pikachu.harvard.edu (Richard Congdon) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 19:36:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: A-ha. In-Reply-To: from "David Dyer-Bennet" at Oct 21, 2003 05:04:57 PM Message-ID: <200310212336.h9LNaOS24324@pikachu.harvard.edu> > David Silberstein writes: > >On Thu Oct 16th, 2003 9:58 PM, Steve Brust weblogged: > >] In more important news, I'm fighting to get Xemacs working > >] like my old emacs, so I can continue on the next Vlad novel. > For computer programmers, just like everyone else, some habits die hard. :) -- Richard From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Oct 21 16:42:45 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 19:42:45 -0400 Subject: Sethra's House Message-ID: <2F6E9356.4EF9DCBF.00048EA6@aol.com> "David Dyer-Bennet" writes: > David Silberstein writes: > >> >> The quote from the booksearch is (FHYA, chapter 25): >> >> ? ?They seem to be of no one House, though many appear to >> be?Dzurlords, and one or two are without doubt >> Dragonlords. > > And it makes sense that those two houses would predominate > in a fighting force. ?However, given what the Lavodes have > been described as I'd kinda expect more wizards to be > involved. Both House Dragon and House Dzur have a reputation for producing wizards. House Athyra does not have a reputation for producing warriors. --KG From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Oct 21 16:53:19 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 19:53:19 -0400 Subject: Pronunciation Guide Message-ID: <3AC7E84F.29E6C0C4.00048EA6@aol.com> "David Dyer-Bennet" writes: > The other issue is putting sound clips on our site. ?I've > got working WAV and MP3 clips up for a tiny sample of > words, and so far nobody has suggested that any other > format is really widespread or greatly superior for this > use, so I'm leaning so far towards just providing those > two, linked as they are in my sample at > . ?Anybody > with sound for whom those don't play? ?Anybody know a way > to make them play directly in more browsers (right now it > seems very browser-dependent whether they just play, or pop > up another page with the player)? I consider the "pop up another page" to be a feature in this case, since that page will have controls, esp volume. As far as I can tell, there are no standards on volume (or no one is paying attention to them). On my system, the final result is dependent on at least 4 separate controls (the app, Windows, speaker knob, and one wierd one (maybe part of the sound card) that I can only change through Real Player). --KG From dusty at sayersnet.com Tue Oct 21 16:59:54 2003 From: dusty at sayersnet.com (J A 'Dusty' Sayers) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 19:59:54 -0400 Subject: A-ha. In-Reply-To: <200310211448.AA178848046@amish2000.com> References: <200310211448.AA178848046@amish2000.com> Message-ID: <3F95C87A.6040503@sayersnet.com> I preeict it will be Iorich, and deal either with the attempt by the Jhereg to seek vengeance against Vlad for his betrayal of them or a tale of one of the times Vlad was imprisoned or tried, possibly for the death of god-boss--or possibly it will be a multi-part tale combining the two, with Vlad comparing his present persecution by the Jhereg to some previous prosecution by the Empire. My three backup guesses are: Vallista, on much the same topic, except focusing of Vlad rebuilding the life he's rent in sunder Lyorn, set at either some point in the past and dealing with Vlad's history or in the present and dealing with Vlad and Cawti coming to terms with the legacy little Vlad Norathar represents; either way, it will have lots of Noish-pa in it Dzur, somehow involving Tazendra, if, as I hope (despite certain fear to the contrary), she's still alive Of course, I could be (and likely am) wrong. >>] In more important news, I'm fighting to get Xemacs working >>] like my old emacs, so I can continue on the next Vlad novel. >> >>Let's see, what's left... Quite a lot, actually. >> >>Hawk, Lyorn, Dzur, Tiassa, Iorich, Tsalmoth, Chreotha, Vallista, >>Jhegaala, The Final Contract >> >>Any guesses as to which one it is, and when it occurs? >> >> > >September of 2004, and it will be _Hawk_, because DAYMAR. > >? >MJ > > > > -- J A Dusty Sayers 'And malt does more than Milton can To justify God?s ways to man.' --A E Housman, A Shropshire Lad LXII From davids at kithrup.com Tue Oct 21 17:17:02 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 17:17:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A-ha. In-Reply-To: <200310211448.AA178848046@amish2000.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Oct 2003, M J wrote: > >---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- >From: David Silberstein >Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 11:37:45 -0700 (PDT) > >>On Thu Oct 16th, 2003 9:58 PM, Steve Brust weblogged: >> >>] so I can continue on the next Vlad novel. >> >>Hawk, Lyorn, Dzur, Tiassa, Iorich, Tsalmoth, Chreotha, Vallista, >>Jhegaala, The Final Contract >> >>Any guesses as to which one it is, and when it occurs? > >September of 2004, and it will be _Hawk_, because DAYMAR. > You know, I think I would agree that this is very highly probable. I mean, Steve would have at least 50 *guaranteed* sales right off the bat, and I think that would be an opportunity just too good for him to pass up. From chaosasj at bellsouth.net Tue Oct 21 17:39:03 2003 From: chaosasj at bellsouth.net (Andrew Jones) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 20:39:03 -0400 Subject: A-ha. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F95D1A7.8010507@bellsouth.net> David Silberstein wrote: > On Tue, 21 Oct 2003, M J wrote: > > >>---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- >>From: David Silberstein >>Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 11:37:45 -0700 (PDT) >> >> >>>On Thu Oct 16th, 2003 9:58 PM, Steve Brust weblogged: >>> >>>] so I can continue on the next Vlad novel. >>> >>>Hawk, Lyorn, Dzur, Tiassa, Iorich, Tsalmoth, Chreotha, Vallista, >>>Jhegaala, The Final Contract >>> >>>Any guesses as to which one it is, and when it occurs? >> >>September of 2004, and it will be _Hawk_, because DAYMAR. >> > > > You know, I think I would agree that this is very highly probable. > > I mean, Steve would have at least 50 *guaranteed* sales right off the > bat, and I think that would be an opportunity just too good for him to > pass up. > > I would agree that too, but then again, he could always surprise us. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Oct 21 18:18:49 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 18:18:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: you think we were hard on the production values of TLoCB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here's a post from one of the leading bloggers, Brad DeLong: http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/movable_type/2003_archives/002549.html Our family copy of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire--our hardback family copy of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire--is in serious disarray. Three huge chunks of the book have fallen out of the binding: pages 53-144, pages 145-340, and pages 341-528. And the book has not been dropped into the bathtub even once! Curse you, Scholastic Press! Curse You! May the curses of Anu, Enlil, and Ea descend upon the Scholastic Press! May Marduk and Sarpanitmn deal justly with those who put insufficient glue into the binding of a book! May the flocks of Scholastic Press be devoured by the lion and the leopard! May the crops of Scholastic Press by devoured by crows! May Utnapishtim the first of scribes turn his countenance from Scholastic Press! And may all their pages have at least one embarrassing typographical error! From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue Oct 21 19:49:12 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 19:49:12 -0700 Subject: A-ha. In-Reply-To: <3F95C87A.6040503@sayersnet.com> References: <200310211448.AA178848046@amish2000.com> <3F95C87A.6040503@sayersnet.com> Message-ID: <20031022024912.GA31407@ofb.net> On Tue, Oct 21, 2003 at 07:59:54PM -0400, J A 'Dusty' Sayers wrote: > I preeict it will be Iorich, and deal either with the attempt by the > Jhereg to seek vengeance against Vlad for his betrayal of them or a tale > of one of the times Vlad was imprisoned or tried, possibly for the death > of god-boss--or possibly it will be a multi-part tale combining the two, > with Vlad comparing his present persecution by the Jhereg to some > previous prosecution by the Empire. Or Dzur, as Vlad takes on the Organization by himself. It's good to be outnumbered. ...yes, yes, he has some minor advantages, but so does a Dzur warrior-wizard... -xx- Damien X-) From mneme at io.com Tue Oct 21 20:48:01 2003 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 22:48:01 -0500 Subject: A-ha. In-Reply-To: References: <16277.35696.80949.660366@fnord.io.com> Message-ID: <16277.65009.884260.770927@fnord.io.com> David Dyer-Bennet writes: >Joshua Kronengold writes: >> David Silberstein writes: >> >On Thu Oct 16th, 2003 9:58 PM, Steve Brust weblogged: >> >] In more important news, I'm fighting to get Xemacs working >> >] like my old emacs, so I can continue on the next Vlad novel. >> I actually think that current FSF Emacsen are much better than recent >> Xemacs releases -- FSF has caught up a lot, and better syntax >> highlighing has really pushed me over the edge. >Then you'll be glad to know I got him switched over to one of those >yesterday. And our old hacks to support Sprint file format editing in >Emacs still seem to work, which they didn't in Xemacs. Well, I am, especially since it means the next Vlad novel is that much more likely to get finished... :) Very cool (yes, Xemacs seems to have a lot of neat ideas behind it, but it really does change a lot of the basic mechanics behind how Emacs works, while FSF Emacs avoids breaking compatibility a lot more; that FSF is also catching up/surpassing xemacs in the featurism department (ie, stealing feature concepts from xemacs that were a good idea, and discarding the rest) is simply a very nice bonus). -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Oct 21 21:01:01 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 21:01:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: news from Northport In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ok, Norway. A witch gets a small business grant: http://www.salon.com/business/wire/2003/10/21/witch/index.html From frank at exit.com Tue Oct 21 22:26:01 2003 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 22:26:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: news from Northport In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200310220526.h9M5Q1aD007554@realtime.exit.com> Philip Hart wrote: > Ok, Norway. A witch gets a small business grant: > http://www.salon.com/business/wire/2003/10/21/witch/index.html I've been rereading Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels. I just finished Wyrd Sisters and Witches Abroad. Imagine my reaction to this story. %-/ -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From skzb at dreamcafe.com Wed Oct 22 02:19:20 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 02:19:20 -0700 Subject: C. Sophronia Cleebers References: Message-ID: <003701c3987d$936687d0$f700000a@steve> > > > >By the way, in one of the in-joke or references sectiosn, you might > >wish to note that "Prince Tapman and Lady Tersa of Haynels" (FHYA, > >chapter 22, pg 334 in the PB ed) is almost certainly a reference to > >"Patrick and Teresa Nielsen Hayden". Okay, I'll cop to Teresa. But a little research will almost certainly produce a better candidate for Prince Tapman. From goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU Wed Oct 22 02:20:41 2003 From: goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (David Goldfarb) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 02:20:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C. Sophronia Cleebers Message-ID: <200310220920.h9M9KfW29273@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> From: "Steven Brust" >> >By the way, in one of the in-joke or references sectiosn, you might >> >wish to note that "Prince Tapman and Lady Tersa of Haynels" (FHYA, >> >chapter 22, pg 334 in the PB ed) is almost certainly a reference to >> >"Patrick and Teresa Nielsen Hayden". > >Okay, I'll cop to Teresa. But a little research will almost certainly >produce a better candidate for Prince Tapman. Tappan King, perhaps? -- David Goldfarb <*>|"I came to Casablanca for the waters." goldfarb at ocf.berkeley.edu | "The waters? What waters? We're in the desert." goldfarb at csua.berkeley.edu |"I was misinformed." From jalipaz at stanford.edu Wed Oct 22 09:37:08 2003 From: jalipaz at stanford.edu (Julie Alipaz) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 09:37:08 -0700 Subject: news from Northport In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I saw that too !!! sweeden is long known as an equl opp. employer! From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Oct 22 11:16:23 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 11:16:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: news from wherever that dueling bridge is In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Malaysia is threatening to build a crooked half-bridge to Singapore: http://www.mggpillai.com/sections.php3?op=viewarticle&artid=3533 From davids at kithrup.com Wed Oct 22 12:54:53 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 12:54:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C. Sophronia Cleebers In-Reply-To: <200310220920.h9M9KfW29273@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Oct 2003, David Goldfarb wrote: >From: "Steven Brust" >>> >By the way, in one of the in-joke or references sectiosn, you might >>> >wish to note that "Prince Tapman and Lady Tersa of Haynels" (FHYA, >>> >chapter 22, pg 334 in the PB ed) is almost certainly a reference to >>> >"Patrick and Teresa Nielsen Hayden". >> >>Okay, I'll cop to Teresa. But a little research will almost certainly >>produce a better candidate for Prince Tapman. > >Tappan King, perhaps? > I confess, I have very nearly never heard of this individual. What is his provenance? My reasoning, besides the fact that it was in conjunction with the Lady Tersa of Haynels, was that "Patrick" =(shortened)=> "Pat" =(reversed)=> "Tap" =(prepended to "man")=> "Tapman". And of course, the man is a Prince because he's Steve's patron, as it were. From davids at kithrup.com Wed Oct 22 15:24:17 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 15:24:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hungarian Comrades Message-ID: Yet another thing I noticed: On the page: http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/languages.html#Fenarian you mention Noish-pa's use of the word "elvtarsok", and wonder if perhaps Brust is 'doing something with the first syllable's resemblance to "elves"' Well, I am nearly certain that the word is the plural of "elvt?rs", which according to two different online Hungarian-English dictionaries, means "comrade". http://dict.sztaki.hu/dict_search.php?O=ENG&L=HUN:ENG:EngHunDict&W=elvt%E1rs http://consulting.medios.fi/dictionary/?language=hu&search=elvtars&allow=true According to an online Hungarian grammar: The category number is realised as singular and plural. There are two plural suffixes. The suffix -k is preceded by an epenthetic vowel after a consonant final stem (Olsson, 1992). SINGULAR PLURAL university egyetem egyetemek student di?k di?kok Which indicates that the plural would be "elvt?rsok". And of course, it also accords with Vlad's approximations of "Friends? Associates?" So, anyway, I nearly think he was trying to tie in to Kelly being a specifically Marxist-type revolutionary, rather than just a rebel. The coincidence of sounds in "elf" and "elvtar" is probably nothing more than that. Noish-pa might not know the Dragaeran because it's not a common word or concept. From goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU Wed Oct 22 16:27:10 2003 From: goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (David Goldfarb) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 16:27:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C. Sophronia Cleebers Message-ID: <200310222327.h9MNRA117200@famine.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> From: David Silberstein On Wed, 22 Oct 2003, David Goldfarb wrote: >>From: "Steven Brust" >>>Okay, I'll cop to Teresa. But a little research will almost certainly >>>produce a better candidate for Prince Tapman. >> >>Tappan King, perhaps? > >I confess, I have very nearly never heard of this individual. What is >his provenance? Well, he's written a novel and some short stories, he's taught at Clarion West, and he was editor of _Twilight Zone_ magazine for a while. I think he's also edited some horror anthologies. He's one of those people whose name I'd sort of picked up by osmosis without really knowing what he'd done.... >My reasoning, besides the fact that it was in conjunction with the >Lady Tersa of Haynels, was that "Patrick" =(shortened)=> "Pat" >=(reversed)=> "Tap" =(prepended to "man")=> "Tapman". > >And of course, the man is a Prince because he's Steve's patron, as it >were. That's pretty reasonable, and I'd have bought it if Steve himself hadn't told us to look elsewhere. For my own part, I won't insult list-members by pretending that they need to be told how to get >from "Tappan King" to "Prince Tapman". :-) -- David Goldfarb <*>| "Speak softly, drive a Sherman tank goldfarb at ocf.berkeley.edu | Laugh hard, it's a long way to the bank." goldfarb at csua.berkeley.edu | -- TMBG From davids at kithrup.com Wed Oct 22 23:30:46 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 23:30:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C. Sophronia Cleebers In-Reply-To: <200310222327.h9MNRA117200@famine.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Oct 2003, David Goldfarb wrote: >>>From: "Steven Brust" >>>>Okay, I'll cop to Teresa. But a little research will almost >>>>certainly produce a better candidate for Prince Tapman. > For my own part, I won't insult list-members by pretending that >they need to be told how to get from "Tappan King" to "Prince >Tapman". :-) > Oh, I agree that it would be useless. Sethra Lavode: "I begin to believe that you truly have no notion of with whom you are conversing." Morrolan shrugged. "Well, you have given me your name." From bio_phy at hotmail.com Thu Oct 23 09:16:53 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:16:53 -0500 Subject: Writing tools Message-ID: I'm a Tech Writer by day and use Adobe FrameMaker (on Win2k) for the books, manuals, and lesser instructions and notes that I write. I also use ACDSee for the quick, fairly basic image manipulations that I do (mostly editing screenshots for inclusion in the various documents). I know Steve mentioned emacs and Xemacs in the weblog. I'm wondering if anyone out there has used both Frame and emacs and what your relative experiences have been. I'm using FrameMaker 7 at home as I work on my first novel ( because I can change document properties in one place and have them update immediately across the entire document, and because it's what I'm used to). Regards, johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ "Almost any act of (creative) expression is an act of courage. Whenever you write (something) and you show it to someone else, it's an act of courage because it's your life, it's who you are and you're laying it out on the table and you're either going to be rejected or accepted." Terry Scott Taylor _________________________________________________________________ Send instant messages to anyone on your contact list with MSN Messenger 6.0. Try it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com From pete.flugstad at icon-labs.com Thu Oct 23 09:42:48 2003 From: pete.flugstad at icon-labs.com (Pete Flugstad) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:42:48 -0500 Subject: Writing tools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F980508.1030707@icon-labs.com> Johne Cook wrote: > I'm a Tech Writer by day and use Adobe FrameMaker (on Win2k) for the books, > manuals, and lesser instructions and notes that I write. I also use ACDSee > for the quick, fairly basic image manipulations that I do (mostly editing > screenshots for inclusion in the various documents). > > I know Steve mentioned emacs and Xemacs in the weblog. I'm wondering if > anyone out there has used both Frame and emacs and what your relative > experiences have been. > > I'm using FrameMaker 7 at home as I work on my first novel ( because I can > change document properties in one place and have them update immediately > across the entire document, and because it's what I'm used to). I've used both, fairly extensively. FrameMaker 3, 4, 5, and 5.5, both on SunOS, Solaris and Windows (none of the newer ones though). Emacs since 18 something or other, again on SunOS, Solaris and Windows. XEmacs in there in various places, including when it was Lucid Emacs (now that was a great product...). IMO, Frame is a document preperation and layout system - it's excells at laying out your technical manuals with mixed text and graphics, text wrapping around graphics and so on. Various fonts, formats, indexing, and so on. It can do large bodies of text well (we used it for large technical documents, like what you seem to use it for, 100's of pages), and it does fine at that. Frame focuses much more on the visual layout of the text, with things like style sheets, master pages, and so on. I *loved* it for it's consistency - once you figure it out, *everything* works the same way - as opposed to something like Word, which is a pile of crap. It stores (or at least stored) it's documents in a proprietary format. Emacs on the other hand is a pure text editor, largely focusing on programming (C, C++, Lisp, any kind of programming really) but it does a fine job on any type of text. It's endlessly and easily programmable (more than the versions of Frame I used) so you can setup macros and other things to do exactly what you want with text. But it doesn't do graphics and it doesn't do page layout. It doesn't (or at least not that I'm aware of) have anything like Master pages and the like in Frame. In fact, the concept of pages is pretty much ignored - you let LaTex (or whatever layout system you're using) handle that, just focus on the text - which is probably why Steven likes it. It's fast and fairly simple to use and stores it's documents in plain text format. Everything can be done with the keyboard, so no mouse is needed (or wanted really). It blends well with things like LaTeX for document prep. But it's not WYSISYG. I still use Emacs today (both NTEmacs and regular Emacs, haven't touched XEmacs in a while). 90% of the documents I write start out as text documents in Emacs and get imported to Word if I need anything fancy. I haven't touched Frame since 5.5 - it's just too expensive for ordinary use. I actually use JED, which is a much smaller simpler Emacs-like editor, for most things. But IMO, nothing beats Emacs' integration with GDB for debugging programs. Well, that's my $0.02. If you haven't used Emacs at all, try NTEmacs (http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/windows/ntemacs.html) - and remap the Ctrl key to be next to the 'A' key, where it's meant to be. Otherwise, you'll break your fingers. It includes a tutorial (Ctrl-h t) that'll get you started. Pete Flugstad From lady_gh0stw0lf at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 09:59:58 2003 From: lady_gh0stw0lf at yahoo.com (Angie Jackson) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 09:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE Question for Steven Brust Message-ID: <20031023165958.19147.qmail@web10706.mail.yahoo.com> Hi! I'm new here. A little about me? Well I've been lurking till I got this list to work for me. So here I am! *Thinks about that song Here I Am from Spirit; Stallion of the Cimarron.* My question is this. How do you go about sending in a song? Is there anything I should know? Lady Ghost --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search From calianng_graves at yahoo.com Thu Oct 23 11:09:06 2003 From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Writing tools In-Reply-To: <3F980508.1030707@icon-labs.com> Message-ID: <20031023180906.53806.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> Pete, You have actually hit it right on the nose about why Steve likes Emacs. Mousework actually disrupts the "flow" of his writing, in addition to driving him batty. It is unfortunate that I can't support that for him (sorry David!), but truthfully, I have never worked in it, having done most of my coding in notepad. Right now, I have him on Star Office for printing and page lay-out, which he claims is working fine for him. It is helpful in that it is good about converting documents to several different formats, including Word and Word Perfect, for those in the industry that don't have several million different word processing programs. Peace, Caliann *Owned and Operated by the Grand Poohbah Cheese of the Universe* Pete Flugstad wrote: But it doesn't do graphics and it doesn't do page layout. It doesn't (or at least not that I'm aware of) have anything like Master pages and the like in Frame. In fact, the concept of pages is pretty much ignored - you let LaTex (or whatever layout system you're using) handle that, just focus on the text - which is probably why Steven likes it. It's fast and fairly simple to use and stores it's documents in plain text format. Everything can be done with the keyboard, so no mouse is needed (or wanted really). It blends well with things like LaTeX for document prep. But it's not WYSISYG. "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search From rone at ennui.org Thu Oct 23 11:14:24 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (roger n. tospott) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:14:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RE Question for Steven Brust In-Reply-To: <20031023165958.19147.qmail@web10706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20031023181424.A1A2A26C38@boredom.ennui.org> Angie Jackson writes: My question is this. How do you go about sending in a song? Is there anything I should know? Sending a song where? To Steve? To the list? rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From trevor at fiatal.net Thu Oct 23 23:23:08 2003 From: trevor at fiatal.net (Trevor Fiatal) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 23:23:08 -0700 Subject: Concerning Names In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F98C54C.4010301@fiatal.net> David Silberstein wrote: > http://www.geocities.com/edgarbook/names/c/ciaran.html > > Etymology: Ciar?n is an Irish Gaelic name meaning "Little Dark One" > History: Ciaran (or Kieran) was an early Irish name that died out > before the Middle Ages. As a saint's name, it was probably > considered too holy for everyday use. It has been revived in > Ireland, and in the United States, to a small degree. > Pronunciation: kee-a-rawn, kee-ran. > Alternates: Ciaran, Kiaran, Kieren, Kieran, Kieron, Keiran. My youngest (6 weeks old) son's middle name is Kieran. I tried for Kieron, but the wife was adamantly against that. And yes, I'm willing to admit, I selected that name as a result of Mr. Brust's nefarious influences. :) -Trevor -- Trevor Fiatal -- trevor at fiatal.net From davids at kithrup.com Fri Oct 24 00:59:32 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 00:59:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Concerning Names In-Reply-To: <3F98C54C.4010301@fiatal.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Oct 2003, Trevor Fiatal wrote: >David Silberstein wrote: > >> Pronunciation: kee-a-rawn, kee-ran. >> Alternates: Ciaran, Kiaran, Kieren, Kieran, Kieron, Keiran. > >My youngest (6 weeks old) son's middle name is Kieran. Well then, congratulations! Which way do you pronounce it? > I tried for Kieron, but the wife was adamantly against that. Why did she object to the one vowel difference? It *is* an accepted variant... From bio_phy at hotmail.com Fri Oct 24 08:36:26 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 10:36:26 -0500 Subject: Aliera (was Re: Concerning Names) Message-ID: I named our first mini dachshund Aliera (which was promptly shortened to Alli). She was a gentle soul and a good friend (and I'm really not much of a "dog guy"). When I slid my motorcycle on gravel on a short curve out in the country on the way to work and crashed, she slept with me on the counch for three weeks while I recovered (I had to sleep sitting up because of a broken collarbone and numerous cracked ribs). I didn't ask her to do that - she seemed to know that I was hurting. She kinda stole my heart when I wasn't looking, I guess. Later that summer, she clonked heads with my son while playing with him, rolling around on the floor. It was a totally innocent accident. It somehow mangled her spine such that she was dragging her hind legs around. She died a week later during the week of 9/11. Her senseless death somehow gave me a tangible hook into the national grief. I wept bitterly that week, something that I just don't do. We buried her in the backyard under the shelter of a very maternal white pine tree. Linda found a copper cutout of a dog on a slender pole. We painted her name on it and set it there under the tree as a memorial. It's odd to learn about selfless love from an animal, but she taught me more than I ever expected, more than I really wanted. Aliera meant more to me than I knew until she was gone. Her name was lyrical and her short life (there's a pun for you) was magical. We are grateful for the loan of the name. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ "Almost any act of (creative) expression is an act of courage. Whenever you write (something) and you show it to someone else, it's an act of courage because it's your life, it's who you are and you're laying it out on the table and you're either going to be rejected or accepted." Terry Scott Taylor >From: Trevor Fiatal >To: David Silberstein >CC: Dragaera List >Subject: Re: Concerning Names >Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 23:23:08 -0700 > >David Silberstein wrote: > > >> http://www.geocities.com/edgarbook/names/c/ciaran.html >> >> Etymology: Ciar?n is an Irish Gaelic name meaning "Little Dark One" >> History: Ciaran (or Kieran) was an early Irish name that died out >> before the Middle Ages. As a saint's name, it was probably >>considered too holy for everyday use. It has been revived in >> Ireland, and in the United States, to a small degree. >> Pronunciation: kee-a-rawn, kee-ran. >> Alternates: Ciaran, Kiaran, Kieren, Kieran, Kieron, Keiran. > >My youngest (6 weeks old) son's middle name is Kieran. I tried for Kieron, >but the wife was adamantly against that. And yes, I'm willing to admit, I >selected that name as a result of Mr. Brust's nefarious influences. :) > >-Trevor _________________________________________________________________ Fretting that your Hotmail account may expire because you forgot to sign in enough? Get Hotmail Extra Storage today! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es From bio_phy at hotmail.com Fri Oct 24 08:39:56 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 10:39:56 -0500 Subject: Writing tools Message-ID: Thanks, Pete! Great response. That answers my question and all the logical follow-ups. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ "Almost any act of (creative) expression is an act of courage. Whenever you write (something) and you show it to someone else, it's an act of courage because it's your life, it's who you are and you're laying it out on the table and you're either going to be rejected or accepted." Terry Scott Taylor >Well, that's my $0.02. If you haven't used Emacs at all, try NTEmacs >(http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/windows/ntemacs.html) - and remap the >Ctrl key to be next to the 'A' key, where it's meant to be. Otherwise, >you'll break your fingers. It includes a tutorial (Ctrl-h t) that'll get >you started. > >Pete Flugstad _________________________________________________________________ Cheer a special someone with a fun Halloween eCard from American Greetings! Go to http://www.msn.americangreetings.com/index_msn.pd?source=msne134 From davids at kithrup.com Fri Oct 24 11:26:27 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:26:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Brust in Hungarian Message-ID: I was browsing the archives, and I noticed that I had tried to find examples of Brust's work in different languages. While evidence was found that his books have been translated into Spanish, German, French, Polish, Russian, Czech & Turkish, the only work that I could find in Hungarian was /Brokedown Palace/ (A lerombolt palot?), and only the title at that. Well, I searched on "lerombolt palota" again, and this time I found a little more information - one page has a picture of the cover of the book ("Brust" is down near the bottom). http://fantasya.hu/biblio/bbet.html Another appears to be an analysis, in Hungarian, of the Hungarian translation compared with the original English - perhaps the author of the analysis thinks the translation is not as good as it could be? Anyway, here it is, for the edification of the linguistically inclined: http://www.zone.ee/aurin/szakirodalom/SAaleromboltpalota.html From trevor at fiatal.net Fri Oct 24 14:55:30 2003 From: trevor at fiatal.net (Trevor Fiatal) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 14:55:30 -0700 Subject: Concerning Names In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F999FD2.7020302@fiatal.net> David Silberstein wrote: > On Thu, 23 Oct 2003, Trevor Fiatal wrote: > > >>David Silberstein wrote: >> >> >>> Pronunciation: kee-a-rawn, kee-ran. >>> Alternates: Ciaran, Kiaran, Kieren, Kieran, Kieron, Keiran. >> >>My youngest (6 weeks old) son's middle name is Kieran. > > > Well then, congratulations! Which way do you pronounce it? Neither of the above, actually: keer-an. >> I tried for Kieron, but the wife was adamantly against that. > > > Why did she object to the one vowel difference? It *is* an accepted > variant... Interestingly, I couldn't prove that at the time -- the baby name resources we used failed to list the 'o' variant. Ultimately, it came down to her aesthetic sense for names, and Kieran it was. I'm holding off telling her exactly *why* I selected that name, at least for a few months. Then again, I know people whose parents named them after characters on popular television programs, so picking a name from the Dragaera mythos is something of a step up. :) -Trevor -- Trevor Fiatal -- trevor at fiatal.net From lady_gh0stw0lf at yahoo.com Fri Oct 24 21:04:08 2003 From: lady_gh0stw0lf at yahoo.com (Angie Jackson) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:04:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Queston for Steve Message-ID: <20031025040408.89135.qmail@web10708.mail.yahoo.com> -----Message----- Sending a song where? To Steve? To the list? rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH --------------------------------- Oh, no. Nothing like that. I want to send it in to someone who may pay me. Biills and Taxes and all that. ~Lady Ghost Wolf Oh, I'm not a psycho. Just insane, but then it depends who your talking too. ;) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search From davids at kithrup.com Sat Oct 25 00:31:22 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 00:31:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Queston for Steve In-Reply-To: <20031025040408.89135.qmail@web10708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Oct 2003, Angie Jackson wrote: >-----Message----- > >Sending a song where? To Steve? To the list? >rone >--------------------------------- >Oh, no. Nothing like that. I want to send it in to someone who may >pay me. Biills and Taxes and all that. > You wish to send in a song to someone who may pay you, yet who is not Steve or someone on the list? Then why are you asking Steve, and the list? You perceive, it is confusing. Perhaps you have left something out. Is this famous song already written, scored and recorded? From bonham15 at cox.net Sat Oct 25 06:47:21 2003 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 08:47:21 -0500 Subject: Queston for Steve References: Message-ID: <000401c39afe$83ff6770$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> at your local library, there will be almost step by step guides on how to get music published, much like there are semi useful guides on how to get your stories published... this magical tome will have addresses of 'song vendors', agents etc etc... if your local library doesn't have one, hit your local college library or bookstore.. one strong word of advice that probably many in this list will be able to tell you from sending off stories to agents/publishers.. prepare to have your ego whacked down faster than a rat on an episode of sopranos. most likely you will be rejected, several times, before you get a song in to someone and get it recorded/published unless you already have a track record (in which case you don't need us, now do you... andy ps forgive my lack of punctuation, sentence structure etc etc. i'm *really* not awake and just a shade hung over at the moment. i've found running into old friends will sometimes induce that condition. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Silberstein" To: "Dragaera List" Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2003 2:31 AM Subject: RE: Queston for Steve > On Fri, 24 Oct 2003, Angie Jackson wrote: > > >-----Message----- > > > >Sending a song where? To Steve? To the list? > >rone > >--------------------------------- > > >Oh, no. Nothing like that. I want to send it in to someone who may > >pay me. Biills and Taxes and all that. > > > > You wish to send in a song to someone who may pay you, yet who is > not Steve or someone on the list? > > Then why are you asking Steve, and the list? > > You perceive, it is confusing. Perhaps you have left something out. > > Is this famous song already written, scored and recorded? > > > From bio_phy at hotmail.com Sat Oct 25 18:34:51 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 20:34:51 -0500 Subject: Queston for Steve Message-ID: Dewey Finn: "I'm hung over this morning. Does anyone know what that means?" Student: "It means you're drunk?" Dewey Finn: "No! It means I was drunk *yesterday*." johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ "Almost any act of (creative) expression is an act of courage. Whenever you write (something) and you show it to someone else, it's an act of courage because it's your life, it's who you are and you're laying it out on the table and you're either going to be rejected or accepted." Terry Scott Taylor >andy >ps forgive my lack of punctuation, sentence structure etc etc. i'm *really* >not awake and just a shade hung over at the moment. i've found running >into >old friends will sometimes induce that condition. _________________________________________________________________ Fretting that your Hotmail account may expire because you forgot to sign in enough? Get Hotmail Extra Storage today! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es From dd-b at dd-b.net Sat Oct 25 20:29:08 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 25 Oct 2003 22:29:08 -0500 Subject: Pronunciation Guide posted Message-ID: Not that it's anything like completed. In particular it doesn't yet have any sound files, except the test ones I posted a pointer to previously. But it *does* have a list of words, many of them including pronunciation info, so it's of some use already. And it inaugurates the new "articles" section. If somebody who understands this stuff would like to help add references to IPA and the formal terminology for the different sounds to our pronunciation rules section, please get in touch with me. There's no point arguing whether I have the pronunciation right for a word until we have the sound file showing how it's supposed to be pronounced, so lay off those for a while, unless it's obvious I've just used the symbol system wrong. Steven is supposed to be doing an initial recording of a small number of words and sending it to me. These first examples should go up relatively promptly when I receive them (nudge, nudge, Steven). -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sun Oct 26 04:31:38 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 04:31:38 -0800 Subject: Pronunciation Guide posted References: Message-ID: <001701c39bbd$1ad07860$f700000a@steve> > Steven is supposed to be doing an initial recording of a small number > of words and sending it to me. These first examples should go up > relatively promptly when I receive them (nudge, nudge, Steven). Right...find microphone...yeah... From bonham15 at cox.net Sun Oct 26 07:02:04 2003 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 09:02:04 -0600 Subject: Pronunciation Guide posted References: <001701c39bbd$1ad07860$f700000a@steve> Message-ID: <000401c39bd2$1e3c4690$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> you mean you think there is an author out there who doesn't procrastinate? ;) don't worry steve, you are still doing things faster than r.r. martin :D, even though you both make me wait too damned long. andy > > > Steven is supposed to be doing an initial recording of a small number > > of words and sending it to me. These first examples should go up > > relatively promptly when I receive them (nudge, nudge, Steven). > > Right...find microphone...yeah... > > From ReVibe68 at aol.com Sun Oct 26 14:01:27 2003 From: ReVibe68 at aol.com (ReVibe68 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 17:01:27 EST Subject: Apropo of nothing.... Message-ID: It wouldn't suprise me if Pel turned out to be Mario. Politicians and Diapers have one thing in common. They should be changed regularly and for The Same Reason!!. Truth Is Truth. From glas at larp.com Sun Oct 26 23:21:50 2003 From: glas at larp.com (Glas) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 02:21:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: Apropo of nothing.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <61963.68.60.2.192.1067239310.squirrel@www.larp.com> I've thought much the same! - Glas > It wouldn't suprise me if Pel turned out to be Mario. From warlord at dragon.com Mon Oct 27 07:10:38 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:10:38 -0500 Subject: Apropo of nothing.... In-Reply-To: <61963.68.60.2.192.1067239310.squirrel@www.larp.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Glas [mailto:glas at larp.com] > Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 2:22 AM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Cc: glas at larp.com > Subject: Re: Apropo of nothing.... > > > > I've thought much the same! > - Glas > > > > It wouldn't suprise me if Pel turned out to be Mario. > > In order to put this tao bed once and for all, Zen brusted through the door, clapped one hand, and declared, "WE are Mario." W That was Zen; this is Tao. From yaga at berkano.pair.com Mon Oct 27 08:17:07 2003 From: yaga at berkano.pair.com (yaga at berkano.pair.com) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:17:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Apropo of nothing.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031027161707.70046.qmail@berkano.pair.com> > In order to put this tao bed once and for all, > Zen brusted through the door, clapped one hand, > and declared, "WE are Mario." He 'brusted?' ;) It's funny though; I always thought Mario was Mario. - Peter / Yaga From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Mon Oct 27 09:49:02 2003 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:49:02 -0800 Subject: Apropo of nothing.... Message-ID: >From: yaga at berkano.pair.com >To: Warlord >CC: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: Apropo of nothing.... >Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:17:07 -0500 (EST) > > > In order to put this tao bed once and for all, > > Zen brusted through the door, clapped one hand, > > and declared, "WE are Mario." > >He 'brusted?' ;) > >It's funny though; I always thought Mario was Mario. > > - Peter / Yaga ---Yes, but which one? James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN _________________________________________________________________ Never get a busy signal because you are always connected with high-speed Internet access. Click here to comparison-shop providers. https://broadband.msn.com From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Oct 27 13:51:16 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:51:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Uma Thurman's House In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dzur. For evidence, see Kill Bill, Vol. 1. Or don't - it's nowhere near Pulp Fiction in quality. Anyway, there's a Tazendra-style fight scene and a declamation from overhead which I think T would have been proud of. From bio_phy at hotmail.com Mon Oct 27 14:07:09 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:07:09 -0600 Subject: Kill BIll V1 (was Re: Uma Thurman's House) Message-ID: Roger Ebert gave it four of four stars. His reasoning is more interesting than his verdict: http://www.suntimes.com/output/ebert1/wkp-news-killbill10f.html ""Kill Bill: Volume 1" shows Quentin Tarantino so effortlessly and brilliantly in command of his technique that he reminds me of a virtuoso violinist racing through "Flight of the Bumble Bee" -- or maybe an accordion prodigy setting a speed record for "Lady of Spain." I mean that as a sincere compliment. The movie is not about anything at all except the skill and humor of its making. It's kind of brilliant. The movie is all storytelling and no story. The motivations have no psychological depth or resonance, but are simply plot markers. The characters consist of their characteristics. Lurking beneath everything, as it did with "Pulp Fiction," is the suggestion of a parallel universe in which all of this makes sense in the same way that a superhero's origin story makes sense." For me, I'm glad that I went to see it, with one caveat - I took my kids to see it (15 and 10), and that was A Big Mistake. We went to see _Bulletproof Monk_ and it was your basic cheesy chopsocky martial arts action flick. I guess I was thinking this would be the same kind of thing. If the usual martial arts picture features comicbook violence, the violence in Kill Bill, V1 is that of a graphic novel, making it a truly adult film in that regard. The only thing that made me more uncomfortable were the two little old ladies in their Sunday finest behind me and to the left. Their unconscious shock during the scene with Go Go was alternately embarrassing and amusing. Just having them there made seeing the film even that much more surreal. Ebert describes that scene thusly: "Later the sword must face the skill of Go Go Yubari (Chiaki Kuriyama), O-Ren's teenage bodyguard and perhaps a major in medieval studies, since her weapon of choice is the mace and chain. This is in the comic book tradition by which characters are defined by their weapons." I totally enjoyed the film and will definitely see the second half in February. I will also, likewise, see it without my kids. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ "Almost any act of (creative) expression is an act of courage. Whenever you write (something) and you show it to someone else, it's an act of courage because it's your life, it's who you are and you're laying it out on the table and you're either going to be rejected or accepted." Terry Scott Taylor >For evidence, see Kill Bill, Vol. 1. Or don't - it's nowhere near Pulp >Fiction in quality. Anyway, there's a Tazendra-style fight scene and a >declamation from overhead which I think T would have been proud of. _________________________________________________________________ Add MSN 8 Internet Software to your current Internet access and enjoy patented spam control and more. Get two months FREE! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/byoa From bonham15 at cox.net Mon Oct 27 14:11:42 2003 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:11:42 -0600 Subject: Kill BIll V1 (was Re: Uma Thurman's House) References: Message-ID: <000601c39cd7$4dd2ace0$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> i've been a tarantino fan since i saw res dogs in college...and i've always been a huge fan of the clint eastwood man with no name movies as well as the old kung fu theatre stuff, along with having a thing for uma thurman.... needless to say this film was nearly perfect for me and i've seen it about 6 times now... describing it to friends i say its a trainload of spagetti westerns running headlong into a trainload of the kung fu theatre flicks. the biggest thing going for it is tarantino is in absolute full movie geek mode and you can see his passion for the film running end to end.. andy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Johne Cook" To: Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 4:07 PM Subject: Kill BIll V1 (was Re: Uma Thurman's House) > Roger Ebert gave it four of four stars. His reasoning is more interesting > than his verdict: > http://www.suntimes.com/output/ebert1/wkp-news-killbill10f.html > > ""Kill Bill: Volume 1" shows Quentin Tarantino so effortlessly and > brilliantly in command of his technique that he reminds me of a virtuoso > violinist racing through "Flight of the Bumble Bee" -- or maybe an accordion > prodigy setting a speed record for "Lady of Spain." I mean that as a sincere > compliment. The movie is not about anything at all except the skill and > humor of its making. It's kind of brilliant. > > The movie is all storytelling and no story. The motivations have no > psychological depth or resonance, but are simply plot markers. The > characters consist of their characteristics. Lurking beneath everything, as > it did with "Pulp Fiction," is the suggestion of a parallel universe in > which all of this makes sense in the same way that a superhero's origin > story makes sense." > > For me, I'm glad that I went to see it, with one caveat - I took my kids to > see it (15 and 10), and that was A Big Mistake. We went to see _Bulletproof > Monk_ and it was your basic cheesy chopsocky martial arts action flick. I > guess I was thinking this would be the same kind of thing. If the usual > martial arts picture features comicbook violence, the violence in Kill Bill, > V1 is that of a graphic novel, making it a truly adult film in that regard. > The only thing that made me more uncomfortable were the two little old > ladies in their Sunday finest behind me and to the left. Their unconscious > shock during the scene with Go Go was alternately embarrassing and amusing. > Just having them there made seeing the film even that much more surreal. > > Ebert describes that scene thusly: > "Later the sword must face the skill of Go Go Yubari (Chiaki Kuriyama), > O-Ren's teenage bodyguard and perhaps a major in medieval studies, since her > weapon of choice is the mace and chain. This is in the comic book tradition > by which characters are defined by their weapons." > > I totally enjoyed the film and will definitely see the second half in > February. I will also, likewise, see it without my kids. > > johne (phy) cook > wisconsin, usa > > personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com > aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ > stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ > > "Almost any act of (creative) expression is an act of courage. Whenever you > write (something) and you show it to someone else, it's an act of courage > because it's your life, it's who you are and you're laying it out on the > table and you're either going to be rejected or accepted." > > Terry Scott Taylor > > >For evidence, see Kill Bill, Vol. 1. Or don't - it's nowhere near Pulp > >Fiction in quality. Anyway, there's a Tazendra-style fight scene and a > >declamation from overhead which I think T would have been proud of. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add MSN 8 Internet Software to your current Internet access and enjoy > patented spam control and more. Get two months FREE! > http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/byoa > From lady_gh0stw0lf at yahoo.com Mon Oct 27 14:42:23 2003 From: lady_gh0stw0lf at yahoo.com (Angie Jackson) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 14:42:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Question for Steve. Message-ID: <20031027224223.56248.qmail@web10705.mail.yahoo.com> He's a musician. I would think a musician would know something about it or be able to point me the right way. The Question: How do you send in song lyrics you have written? ~Lady Ghost --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears From lady_gh0stw0lf at yahoo.com Mon Oct 27 15:11:01 2003 From: lady_gh0stw0lf at yahoo.com (Angie Jackson) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:11:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thankx Message-ID: <20031027231101.97602.qmail@web10703.mail.yahoo.com> Thank you Andy & Johne Cook. I shall start writting letters, after all, I have nothing to lose. ~Thank You~ Lady Ghost --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears From escargo at skypoint.com Mon Oct 27 20:40:40 2003 From: escargo at skypoint.com (David S. Cargo) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:40:40 -0600 Subject: Writing tools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:16:53 -0500, you wrote: >I'm a Tech Writer by day and use Adobe FrameMaker (on Win2k) for the books, >manuals, and lesser instructions and notes that I write. I also use ACDSee >for the quick, fairly basic image manipulations that I do (mostly editing >screenshots for inclusion in the various documents). > >I know Steve mentioned emacs and Xemacs in the weblog. I'm wondering if >anyone out there has used both Frame and emacs and what your relative >experiences have been. > >I'm using FrameMaker 7 at home as I work on my first novel ( because I can >change document properties in one place and have them update immediately >across the entire document, and because it's what I'm used to). > >Regards, > >johne (phy) cook >wisconsin, usa I used to use FrameMaker for documentation tasks (maintaining hundreds of pages of program specifications), I have used some version of emacs since 1978. First, it is perhaps a little known fact that FrameMaker has (or at least had) many emacs key bindings built in, so that emacs users could do many things the way they were used to if they were using FrameMaker. For the most part, writing the text of a novel is much different that controlling the layout of a novel (or a manual or specification). Steven probably wants as little intrusion as possible of the format into the process of writing. Emacs will wrap paragraphs; perform search and replace; cut and paste; and allow multiple windows containing either the same file or different files to be displayed. Since it does not fancy formatting, it performs well on underpowered hardware. It's available for free. FrameMaker is definitely a publishing tool, and it handles long, complicated material (with figures, footnotes, cross references, tables of contents, fancy paragraph styles) well and consistently. (I would much rather use Frame than Microsoft Word for almost anything.) If you focus on the simplest possible formats (perhaps three paragraph types: Chapter Title, Chapter First Paragraph, Other paragraph), you could Frame to be out of the way enough for the writing task. Later you could do the formatting. Sometimes I think of programs like Frame as, "What You See Is What You Fiddle With." When you are fiddling, you are not writing. escargo David S. Cargo (escargo at skypoint.com) From bio_phy at hotmail.com Mon Oct 27 21:10:07 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:10:07 -0600 Subject: Writing tools Message-ID: Again, thx for the replies - this is all very interesting to me. One quibble from experience - with Frame, when you set it up right in the beginning (and I pretty much use the same template once I get something I like), you pretty much get to focus on just content. If I need a new Header1, I slam F9, "H", and . Viola! Instantly formatted. And it's not like I'm writing all the time anyway. I often find myself doing other things while I'm trying to chase down the latest thing that's percolating. Sure, it looks like I'm wasting time, but I'm really sorting things out. At any rate, it's *Word* I find myself endlessly fiddling with. ;) But that's a difference between a Word Processor and a true Desktop Publishing app. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ "Almost any act of (creative) expression is an act of courage. Whenever you write (something) and you show it to someone else, it's an act of courage because it's your life, it's who you are and you're laying it out on the table and you're either going to be rejected or accepted." Terry Scott Taylor >Emacs will wrap paragraphs; perform search and replace; cut and paste; >and allow multiple windows containing either the same file or >different files to be displayed. Since it does not fancy formatting, >it performs well on underpowered hardware. It's available for free. > >FrameMaker is definitely a publishing tool, and it handles long, >complicated material (with figures, footnotes, cross references, >tables of contents, fancy paragraph styles) well and consistently. >(I would much rather use Frame than Microsoft Word for almost >anything.) > >If you focus on the simplest possible formats (perhaps three paragraph >types: Chapter Title, Chapter First Paragraph, Other paragraph), you >could Frame to be out of the way enough for the writing task. Later >you could do the formatting. > >Sometimes I think of programs like Frame as, "What You See Is What You >Fiddle With." When you are fiddling, you are not writing. > >escargo > > >David S. Cargo (escargo at skypoint.com) _________________________________________________________________ Add MSN 8 Internet Software to your current Internet access and enjoy patented spam control and more. Get two months FREE! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/byoa From davids at kithrup.com Mon Oct 27 21:53:10 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:53:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Uma Thurman's House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >Dzur. > >For evidence, see Kill Bill, Vol. 1. Or don't - it's nowhere near Pulp >Fiction in quality. Anyway, there's a Tazendra-style fight scene and a >declamation from overhead which I think T would have been proud of. > I haven't seen Kill Bill yet, but there's a scene in the "Charlie's Angels : Full Throttle" trailer which made me think that Lucy Liu us defintely of House Dzur: Lucy Liu: "I'm Alex Munday. I'll be your rescuer today." Robert Patrick: "But they have 50 armed men!" Lucy Liu: "I know. It hardly seems fair." From bio_phy at hotmail.com Mon Oct 27 21:55:06 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:55:06 -0600 Subject: Uma Thurman's House Message-ID: oh, well done! ;) johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ "Almost any act of (creative) expression is an act of courage. Whenever you write (something) and you show it to someone else, it's an act of courage because it's your life, it's who you are and you're laying it out on the table and you're either going to be rejected or accepted." Terry Scott Taylor > Lucy Liu: "I'm Alex Munday. I'll be your rescuer today." > Robert Patrick: "But they have 50 armed men!" > Lucy Liu: "I know. It hardly seems fair." _________________________________________________________________ Want to check if your PC is virus-infected? Get a FREE computer virus scan online from McAfee. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Oct 27 22:03:29 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 22:03:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Uma Thurman's House In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > >Dzur. > > > >For evidence, see Kill Bill, Vol. 1. Or don't - it's nowhere near Pulp > >Fiction in quality. Anyway, there's a Tazendra-style fight scene and a > >declamation from overhead which I think T would have been proud of. > > > > I haven't seen Kill Bill yet, but there's a scene in the "Charlie's > Angels : Full Throttle" trailer which made me think that Lucy Liu us > defintely of House Dzur: > > Lucy Liu: "I'm Alex Munday. I'll be your rescuer today." > Robert Patrick: "But they have 50 armed men!" > Lucy Liu: "I know. It hardly seems fair." LL has better eyes for a Dzur, of course, and I see UT's facial features as more in the Phoenix line. (Note that LL is in Kill Bill as well.) But UT has a certain feline grace to her gait, and she looks great with a sword, and Kill Bill is all about revenge and honor and spurting blood, so I'm sticking with her. From sabia at mojoworld.net Tue Oct 28 11:17:02 2003 From: sabia at mojoworld.net (sabia at mojoworld.net) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:17:02 -0800 Subject: A plague not mentioned during the Interregnum. A pity. Message-ID: <5396916D8B3BD44796A5A5EAEA93AEDF013AC5@deathstar.internal.mojoworld.net> I wonder how Paarfi would spin this one: http://www.phenomenamagazine.com/0/editorial.asp?aff_id=0&this_cat=Altered+States&action=page&type_id=&cat_id=68&obj_id=286 -Sabia From joelynch at sbcglobal.net Tue Oct 28 11:41:59 2003 From: joelynch at sbcglobal.net (joelynch) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:41:59 -0800 Subject: Kill BIll V1 (was Re: Uma Thurman's House) In-Reply-To: <000601c39cd7$4dd2ace0$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> Message-ID: One thing that must be emphasized is the extreme violence in this movie. It is extremely violent, and not for everyone. That said, I suspect many on this list would enjoy it. I certainly did. > -----Original Message----- > From: bonham15 [mailto:bonham15 at cox.net] > i've been a tarantino fan since i saw res dogs in college...and > i've always > been a huge fan of the clint eastwood man with no name movies as > well as the > old kung fu theatre stuff, along with having a thing for uma thurman.... > needless to say this film was nearly perfect for me and i've seen > it about 6 > times now... describing it to friends i say its a trainload of spagetti > westerns running headlong into a trainload of the kung fu theatre flicks. > the biggest thing going for it is tarantino is in absolute full movie geek > mode and you can see his passion for the film running end to end.. > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.528 / Virus Database: 324 - Release Date: 10/16/03 From bonham15 at cox.net Tue Oct 28 14:19:43 2003 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:19:43 -0600 Subject: Kill BIll V1 (was Re: Uma Thurman's House) References: Message-ID: <002101c39da1$96e0db80$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> indeed..... if you are passingly familiar with tarantino this won't suprise you.. the only two things that didn't have, literally, buckets of blood in em were foxy brown and whatever that lame destiny turns on the radio thing was.. otherwise pretty much anything he touches has blood by the gallon (aka >from dusk till dawn).... but maaaaaan, you can see tarantino sitting back during this film going "THAT was too cool!".. i really want to hear the director commentary when the dvd comes out. andy letting his inner film geek shine > One thing that must be emphasized is the extreme violence in this movie. > > It is extremely violent, and not for everyone. That said, I suspect many > on this list would enjoy it. I certainly did. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: bonham15 [mailto:bonham15 at cox.net] > > i've been a tarantino fan since i saw res dogs in college...and > > i've always > > been a huge fan of the clint eastwood man with no name movies as > > well as the > > old kung fu theatre stuff, along with having a thing for uma thurman.... > > needless to say this film was nearly perfect for me and i've seen > > it about 6 > > times now... describing it to friends i say its a trainload of spagetti > > westerns running headlong into a trainload of the kung fu theatre flicks. > > the biggest thing going for it is tarantino is in absolute full movie geek > > mode and you can see his passion for the film running end to end.. > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.528 / Virus Database: 324 - Release Date: 10/16/03 > From mam at theworld.com Tue Oct 28 14:33:04 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:33:04 -0500 Subject: Pronunciation Guide In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 21 Oct 2003, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: #rone at ennui.org (roger n. tospott) writes: # #> David Dyer-Bennet writes: #> We need a good system for representing the pronunciations in text #> form. For various reasons I don't think the IPA is a good choice -- #> mostly that the people looking up these pronunciations won't be #> familiar with it, and it presents a rather large learning curve. #> #> What do you mean by "IPA"? # #International Phonetic Alphabet. I think it's what professionals use #when they're dealing with these issues. #. Yes, it is. #> I like the pronunciation guide at m-w.com; it seems fairly simple and #> effective. #But probably not public-domain. Actually it's more complicated than I #really wanted; I notice a number of cases where they can't even find #an English word to illustrate the sound. Where? The only such instances I see on http://m-w.com/pronguid2.htm are symbols that modify the preceding symbol: [^y] for palatalization and [^n] for nasalization. # And what's with arbitrarily #reversing the symbols \o\ and \ä\ -- they seem to be used to #indicate the opposite of what makes sense (the o used to indicate #modified a sounds, the a used to indicate the common o sound). By "modified a sounds", do you mean the vowel in "caught" (for those who pronounce it differently from "cot")? That is no more a modified "a" sound than it is a modified "o" sound; don't be misled by English spelling. Similarly for a-umlaut. #Although this may be one of those situations where we should make it #as simple as possible, and no simpler; I may be trying to make it #simpler than is possible. But the big thing that bugs me about IPA #beyond the complexity is that they don't use any of the obvious #associations, they always find some weird way to do it. Obviousness, or its lack, is in the mind of the beholder. That is, what is obvious and natural to one person may be totally bizarre to another. # This is #probably to make it less English-specific; but since my audience is #specifically English-speakers (the web site isn't in any other #languages), that's a drawback for me. It IS "International", and unlike ASCII it was not invented by and for English-speakers with no conception of other languages. See http://www.arts.gla.ac.uk/IPA/ipa.html . In that URL, and in the following quote, "IPA" means "International Phonetic Association" >>> The IPA is the major as well as the oldest representative organisation for phoneticians. It was established in 1886 in Paris. The aim of the IPA is to promote the scientific study of phonetics and the various practical applications of that science. In furtherance of this aim, the IPA provides the academic community world-wide with a notational standard for the phonetic representation of all languages - the International Phonetic Alphabet (also IPA). <<< #Hmmm; I suppose it might be possible to use the MW system by #reference, not copying anything. Maybe. Or maybe I'll have to invent #one in the end anyway. Don't. Or don't do it without asking a professional. Most people aren't aware of the differences between their own speech and other people's. Let's take a poll. 1. Do you pronounce "Don" and "dawn" the same? 2a. When you read question 1, did you react "Huh? Doesn't everyone?" 2b. ... or did you react "Huh? Does anyone?!" -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com Tue Oct 28 14:41:07 2003 From: carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com (Carla Hunt) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:41:07 -0500 Subject: Kill BIll V1 (was Re: Uma Thurman's House) Message-ID: went and saw kill bill sat. night. it, uhmmm, was interesting. i'd never seen a quinten tarantino movie. i don't think i will again... although i DO want to see what happens with the second part - they totally left the movie with a huge cliff-hanger - to be continued in part 2. stinkers. excessive amounts of violence, but for the most part, i don't think it was as funny as they made it out to be. i mean, the movie payback was violent but managed to be pretty funny. this wasn't all that funny. parts of it were positively grim. the word used the most after exiting the theatre was "INteresting..." we had been thinking of either going to kill bill or mystic river. we opted for kill bill because neither of us was in the mood for a serious movie. i heard >from the conductor on my train monday morning that he saw mystic river over the weekend and he thought it was awesome - and he doesn't even LIKE most of the actors. hmmmmmm, i think we picked the wrong movie... =) "bonham15" > cc: Subject: Re: Kill BIll V1 (was Re: Uma Thurman's House) 10/28/2003 05:19 PM indeed..... if you are passingly familiar with tarantino this won't suprise you.. the only two things that didn't have, literally, buckets of blood in em were foxy brown and whatever that lame destiny turns on the radio thing was.. otherwise pretty much anything he touches has blood by the gallon (aka >from dusk till dawn).... but maaaaaan, you can see tarantino sitting back during this film going "THAT was too cool!".. i really want to hear the director commentary when the dvd comes out. andy letting his inner film geek shine > One thing that must be emphasized is the extreme violence in this movie. > > It is extremely violent, and not for everyone. That said, I suspect many > on this list would enjoy it. I certainly did. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: bonham15 [mailto:bonham15 at cox.net] > > i've been a tarantino fan since i saw res dogs in college...and > > i've always > > been a huge fan of the clint eastwood man with no name movies as > > well as the > > old kung fu theatre stuff, along with having a thing for uma thurman.... > > needless to say this film was nearly perfect for me and i've seen > > it about 6 > > times now... describing it to friends i say its a trainload of spagetti > > westerns running headlong into a trainload of the kung fu theatre flicks. > > the biggest thing going for it is tarantino is in absolute full movie geek > > mode and you can see his passion for the film running end to end.. > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.528 / Virus Database: 324 - Release Date: 10/16/03 > From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Oct 28 14:59:53 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 28 Oct 2003 16:59:53 -0600 Subject: Pronunciation Guide In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mark A Mandel writes: > On 21 Oct 2003, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > #Although this may be one of those situations where we should make it > #as simple as possible, and no simpler; I may be trying to make it > #simpler than is possible. But the big thing that bugs me about IPA > #beyond the complexity is that they don't use any of the obvious > #associations, they always find some weird way to do it. > > Obviousness, or its lack, is in the mind of the beholder. That is, what > is obvious and natural to one person may be totally bizarre to another. Yes, exactly. However, the users of the drgaera.info pronunciation guide will mostly be English speakers (I suppose a few people reading the books in translation and who don't speak English will still find their way to the site and to that section; but I also suspect they'll mostly use the sound files, when they're up.) (Speaking of sound files, Steven sent me the first batch of recordings today, so I'll get to those as soon as I've met this afternoon's client deadline. I'll announce when sounds files are up for some words.) > # This is > #probably to make it less English-specific; but since my audience is > #specifically English-speakers (the web site isn't in any other > #languages), that's a drawback for me. > > It IS "International", and unlike ASCII it was not invented by and for > English-speakers with no conception of other languages. See > http://www.arts.gla.ac.uk/IPA/ipa.html . In that URL, and in the > following quote, "IPA" means "International Phonetic Association" Yes, I know, and approve (remember, *I* am the one that brought them into the conversation!). But our users are not professional linguists, not already familiar with that coding system, and a system that takes advantage of knowledge of English and which is more similar to what is used in dicitionaries used by ordinary English-speakers will be much easier for people to understand. > #Hmmm; I suppose it might be possible to use the MW system by > #reference, not copying anything. Maybe. Or maybe I'll have to invent > #one in the end anyway. > > Don't. Or don't do it without asking a professional. Most people aren't > aware of the differences between their own speech and other people's. I've stolen one instead. I'm not sure the people who invented it are any more professionals than I am, though. But at least it's been used before and exposed to considerable comment, and even used in a published book (I grabbed the jargon file pronunciation system). And it's public domain, which helps. I've already had to add one sound to it. > Let's take a poll. > > 1. Do you pronounce "Don" and "dawn" the same? There *is* a difference in how I pronounce them, but it isn't significant; neither one is "wrong", I'd understand either one as meaning the correct word in context, and if you could construct a sentence where the context *doesn't* tell me which, I probably wouldn't automatically assume it from the pronunciation. > 2a. When you read question 1, did you react "Huh? Doesn't everyone?" > > 2b. ... or did you react "Huh? Does anyone?!" Too much time in pronunciation discussions recently, so I'm not likely to say either :-). -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From mam at theworld.com Tue Oct 28 15:09:39 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:09:39 -0500 Subject: Hungarian Comrades In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Oct 2003, David Silberstein wrote: #Yet another thing I noticed: # #On the page: # # http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/languages.html#Fenarian # #you mention Noish-pa's use of the word "elvtarsok", and wonder if #perhaps Brust is 'doing something with the first syllable's #resemblance to "elves"' # #Well, I am nearly certain that the word is the plural of #"elvt?rs", which according to two different online #Hungarian-English dictionaries, means "comrade". [analysis and documentation snipped] #So, anyway, I nearly think he was trying to tie in to Kelly being a #specifically Marxist-type revolutionary, rather than just a rebel. # #The coincidence of sounds in "elf" and "elvtar" is probably nothing #more than that. Noish-pa might not know the Dragaeran because it's #not a common word or concept. Could be. Thanks. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Tue Oct 28 15:48:45 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:48:45 -0500 Subject: Pronunciation Guide In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 28 Oct 2003, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: #Mark A Mandel writes: #> 1. Do you pronounce "Don" and "dawn" the same? # #There *is* a difference in how I pronounce them, but it isn't #significant; neither one is "wrong", I'd understand either one as #meaning the correct word in context, and if you could construct a #sentence where the context *doesn't* tell me which, I probably #wouldn't automatically assume it from the pronunciation. "Bride's side or groom's side?" "I'm Dawn's brother." "D()n the bride, or D()n the groom?" [pronouncing both the same, and hearing both as the same] I based this "poll" on an unforgettable moment from the first day of my Phonetics 101 class at U.C. Berkeley with John Ohala. He drew the "vowel quadrilateral" on the board and went round it, pointing to each symbol as he pronounced the sound it represented. A hand went up. "Mr. Ohala, would you pronounce those two again?" John smiled slightly. "These two? AW ... AH ... AW ... AH" "Uhh... are you saying that those are different?" And about one-third of the class nodded in puzzled agreement with the student. The rest of us stared at *him* in equally puzzled astonishment. And John described the low back vowel neutralization that occurs in many US dialects, including in Southern California. # #> 2a. When you read question 1, did you react "Huh? Doesn't everyone?" #> #> 2b. ... or did you react "Huh? Does anyone?!" # #Too much time in pronunciation discussions recently, so I'm not #likely to say either :-). Heh. I didn't ask for what you'd say, but how you'd react. OK, I *meant* in thought. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From ReVibe68 at aol.com Tue Oct 28 17:37:22 2003 From: ReVibe68 at aol.com (ReVibe68 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 20:37:22 EST Subject: Uma Thurman's House Message-ID: <121.2710ae7c.2cd073d2@aol.com> In a message dated 10/28/03 1:03:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU writes: > >Dzur. > > > > > >For evidence, see Kill Bill, Vol. 1. Or don't - it's nowhere near Pulp > > >Fiction in quality. Anyway, there's a Tazendra-style fight scene and a > > >declamation from overhead which I think T would have been proud of. > > > > > > > I haven't seen Kill Bill yet, but there's a scene in the "Charlie's > > Angels : Full Throttle" trailer which made me think that Lucy Liu us > > defintely of House Dzur: > > > > Lucy Liu: "I'm Alex Munday. I'll be your rescuer today." > > Robert Patrick: "But they have 50 armed men!" > > Lucy Liu: "I know. It hardly seems fair." > > > LL has better eyes for a Dzur, of course, and I see UT's facial features > as more in the Phoenix line. (Note that LL is in Kill Bill as well.) > But UT has a certain feline grace to her gait, and she looks great with > a sword, and Kill Bill is all about revenge and honor and spurting blood, > so I'm sticking with her. > > > Ok. LL as a Dzur I agree with, however UT as a Phoenix? NOPE, She's Definitely a Dragon. For proof see Kill Bill vol.1. The Bride's Declaration after the Showdown at The Blue Lotus : "Those of you who still have your lives may leave with them......NO! Leave your missing limbs. They Belong to me now!" ...Like I said, Definitely a Dragon. I'm thinking Aliera e'Kieron. Thoughts? Comments? -ReVibe From camisade at mindspring.com Tue Oct 28 18:18:26 2003 From: camisade at mindspring.com (Talion Camisade) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 21:18:26 -0500 Subject: Pronunciation Guide Message-ID: > Don't. Or don't do it without asking a professional. Most people > aren't aware of the differences between their own speech and other > people's. > >Let's take a poll. > > 1. Do you pronounce "Don" and "dawn" the same? Negative. > 2a. When you read question 1, did you react "Huh? Doesn't everyone?" > > 2b. ... or did you react "Huh? Does anyone?!" Heh...a professional, of course, would have included: 2c. ...or have you simply accepted for years that some do and some don't, and for some people it varies depending on context, mood, environmental considerations and the phase of the moon; but regardless, most days there're more pressing issues to which to attend. -Talion Camisade (Kevin Higgins) "Sometimes it's hard to believe we are the apex of 200 million years of competitive mammalian evolution." From camisade at mindspring.com Tue Oct 28 18:27:09 2003 From: camisade at mindspring.com (Talion Camisade) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 21:27:09 -0500 Subject: Kill BIll V1 (was Re: Uma Thurman's House) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > went and saw kill bill sat. night. it, uhmmm, was interesting. i'd never seen > a quinten tarantino movie. i don't think i will again... although i DO want to > see what happens with the second part - they totally left the movie with a huge On the other hand, I had seen Tarantino movies, but was unprepared for the almost ludicrous, over-the-top presentation in this one. While I can appreciate why some critics are lauding this, and I grok the tribute to the genre(s) Tarantino paid with "Kill Bill." But IMO, part of a (talented) movie-maker's art is telling a story within a reasonable length of time and there's no defense for taking two full movie sessions to tell a single story (especially one as shallow as this); under no conditions can Vol 1 be considered a stand-alone movie. ...although I guess one *could* praise him on having found a way to charge people $15-$20 for a single movie, by providing them with a very LONG intermission. -Camisade (Kevin Higgins) "Si totus est non ordine, persequi tuam, odio mei amici preacelci contemplori." From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Oct 28 19:01:19 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 19:01:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Uma Thurman's House [no spoilers] In-Reply-To: <121.2710ae7c.2cd073d2@aol.com> References: <121.2710ae7c.2cd073d2@aol.com> Message-ID: Kill Bill has about two minutes of significant dialogue, some of which would be best left as a surprise - so watch out for spoilers, please. From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Oct 28 22:25:03 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 29 Oct 2003 00:25:03 -0600 Subject: Pronunciation guide -- sound files arrive Message-ID: I've got the sound files from the first recording chopped up and put in place. I've fixed a few of the pronunciations, and am currently arguing with Mark Mandel about others :-). -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From wyrmouroboros at comcast.net Wed Oct 29 00:11:12 2003 From: wyrmouroboros at comcast.net (wyrmouroboros at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 08:11:12 +0000 Subject: Sethra's House, the Necromancer Message-ID: <102920030811.4529.29a3@comcast.net> "Think back to your own past, Vlad: I know what Aliera told you about your past lives, so consider her words now. Millennia ago, back in the days when we were creating an Empire, though only Zerika knew that we were doing so, the seeds of all this were planted. Consider those you know of who were once your family, and those who mattered to you in a time too faded in the mist for you to imagine, much less remember. Kieron is gone now, and remains in the Paths of the Dead awaiting his moment. I, who had some importance in the tribe, am here, watching the Great Weapons, observing the Jenoine, listening to the gods, and trying to see that nothing upsets the balance." --Sethra Lavode, _Issola_, p. 41 (Hardcover). It would appear, at least at the time of the Empire's founding, that Sethra Lavode is or was considered a Dragon. What that means to the current estimation of her House is up to the PTI (Power That Is, i.e. Steve). Also, though I don't have it handy, I seem to recall that the very first mention Vlad ever makes (well, in order of writing) of the Necromancer is that he's always liked her. On the other hand, in later writings -- Issola comes to mind, as it is at hand -- Vlad seems to, well, be afraid of her, or at least dislike being around her. Any thoughts as to why this is? Thomas From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Oct 29 00:59:59 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 00:59:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sethra's House, the Necromancer In-Reply-To: <102920030811.4529.29a3@comcast.net> References: <102920030811.4529.29a3@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 wyrmouroboros at comcast.net wrote: > ... I, who had some importance in the tribe [of Dragons]... > --Sethra Lavode, _Issola_, p. 41 (Hardcover). > It would appear, at least at the time of the Empire's founding, that > Sethra Lavode is or was considered a Dragon. What that means to the > current estimation of her House is up to the PTI (Power That Is, i.e. > Steve). I disagree - she's still important to House Dragon, but that doesn't make her a Dragon. She's sui generis - maybe she's a Dragon and a Dzur, maybe whatever - which _is_ up to SKZB. > Also, though I don't have it handy, I seem to recall that the very first > mention Vlad ever makes (well, in order of writing) of the Necromancer > is that he's always liked her. That would be in _Jhereg_, at a party, an unlikely setting for the N. I'd say this is a problem in the text, likely due to _J_ being SKZB's first stab at translating the Vladiad. Or Vlad was being funny. > On the other hand, in later writings -- Issola comes to mind, as it is > at hand -- Vlad seems to, well, be afraid of her, or at least dislike > being around her. Any thoughts as to why this is? She's powerful and quite insane by Vlad's definition (she probably doesn't eat at all - even Sethra eats something), and in _Dragon_ they have an encounter which seems to coincide with some memory loss or a disturbing psychic event or a psychotic interlude... From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Oct 29 01:08:04 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 01:08:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sethra's House, the Necromancer In-Reply-To: References: <102920030811.4529.29a3@comcast.net> Message-ID: Another theory - the N seems to be oddly fond of Vlad (v. the last pages of _Issola_) - perhaps in _Jhereg_ he was trying to pretend he felt comfortable with her out of (rather rare) courtliness, or just because he felt he owed it to her. Still, most likely the oddness in _J_ is just Vlad having a little joke. Probably Loiosh fell off his shoulder laughing (or whatever the jhereg equivalent is - headbobbing?) when V described the encounter in question. From lister at insaneninjahero.com Wed Oct 29 07:10:37 2003 From: lister at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 07:10:37 -0800 Subject: Sethra's House, the Necromancer In-Reply-To: References: <102920030811.4529.29a3@comcast.net> Message-ID: <3F9FD86D.9050406@insaneninjahero.com> Philip Hart wrote: > Another theory - the N seems to be oddly fond of Vlad (v. the last pages > of _Issola_) - perhaps in _Jhereg_ he was trying to pretend he felt > comfortable with her out of (rather rare) courtliness, or just because he > felt he owed it to her. > > Still, most likely the oddness in _J_ is just Vlad having a little joke. > Probably Loiosh fell off his shoulder laughing (or whatever the jhereg > equivalent is - headbobbing?) when V described the encounter in question. > > I got the impression that Vlad was more comfortable with the Necromancer at one point, but then as he came to understand that "living" and "dead" were technical terms to her, matters of looking in a different direction, etc, he became less comfortable around her. Perhaps she seemed polite and non-intrusive before (good characteristics in the eyes of an assassin), but further exposure to her has brought him an understanding that she really /is/ looking right through (the physical) him when they speak. Kisc From zarkon at illrepute.org Wed Oct 29 07:58:04 2003 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 10:58:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Pronunciation Guide In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Oct 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: @> Let's take a poll. @> @> 1. Do you pronounce "Don" and "dawn" the same? I actually had a similar discussion with a friend recently about 'fairy' and 'ferry'. This was particularly disconcerting because: a) I couldn't notice a difference when he pronounced them or played a sound file of someone else doing so. b) He claimed I pronounced them differently despite not being aware of any difference. Damned association cortex. From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Oct 29 08:44:44 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 29 Oct 2003 10:44:44 -0600 Subject: Sethra's House, the Necromancer In-Reply-To: References: <102920030811.4529.29a3@comcast.net> Message-ID: Philip Hart writes: > On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 wyrmouroboros at comcast.net wrote: > > > ... I, who had some importance in the tribe [of Dragons]... > > > --Sethra Lavode, _Issola_, p. 41 (Hardcover). > > > It would appear, at least at the time of the Empire's founding, that > > Sethra Lavode is or was considered a Dragon. What that means to the > > current estimation of her House is up to the PTI (Power That Is, i.e. > > Steve). > > I disagree - she's still important to House Dragon, but that doesn't make > her a Dragon. She's sui generis - maybe she's a Dragon and a Dzur, maybe > whatever - which _is_ up to SKZB. She does say "...important in the tribe". That's not quite IMHO a claim that she's a dragon, but it's closer than "important to", anyway. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From mneme at io.com Wed Oct 29 09:55:38 2003 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 11:55:38 -0600 Subject: Kill BIll V1 (was Re: Uma Thurman's House) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16287.65306.748575.315203@fnord.io.com> Carla Hunt writes: >went and saw kill bill sat. night. it, uhmmm, was interesting. i'd >never seen a quinten tarantino movie. i don't think i will >again... although i DO want to see what happens with the second part >- they totally left the movie with a huge cliff-hanger - to be >continued in part 2. Actually, Lisa doesn't really think it needs a sequel. For the most part, I don't either -- it does everything it's supposed to do; it's going to be excessively hard for the sequel not to just repeat what KB does. Of course, I'll see it anyway. >to be. i mean, the movie payback was violent but managed to be >pretty funny. It was amazingly funny. But like most of Tarantino's work, it's also extremely meta -- more about what it's trying to do than the actual plot or effect. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From mneme at io.com Wed Oct 29 09:55:38 2003 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 11:55:38 -0600 Subject: Kill BIll V1 (was Re: Uma Thurman's House) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16287.65306.748575.315203@fnord.io.com> Carla Hunt writes: >went and saw kill bill sat. night. it, uhmmm, was interesting. i'd >never seen a quinten tarantino movie. i don't think i will >again... although i DO want to see what happens with the second part >- they totally left the movie with a huge cliff-hanger - to be >continued in part 2. Actually, Lisa doesn't really think it needs a sequel. For the most part, I don't either -- it does everything it's supposed to do; it's going to be excessively hard for the sequel not to just repeat what KB does. Of course, I'll see it anyway. >to be. i mean, the movie payback was violent but managed to be >pretty funny. It was amazingly funny. But like most of Tarantino's work, it's also extremely meta -- more about what it's trying to do than the actual plot or effect. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From wyrmouroboros at comcast.net Wed Oct 29 10:58:30 2003 From: wyrmouroboros at comcast.net (wyrmouroboros at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:58:30 +0000 Subject: Sethra's House, the Necromancer Message-ID: <102920031858.12524.64e1@comcast.net> Steve (In a roundabout way): > > > ... I, who had some importance in the tribe [of Dragons]... > > > --Sethra Lavode, _Issola_, p. 41 (Hardcover). Me: > > > It would appear, at least at the time of the Empire's founding, that > > > Sethra Lavode is or was considered a Dragon. What that means to the > > > current estimation of her House is up to the PTI (Power That Is, i.e. > > > Steve). Phil Hart: > > I disagree - she's still important to House Dragon, but that doesn't make > > her a Dragon. She's sui generis - maybe she's a Dragon and a Dzur, maybe > > whatever - which _is_ up to SKZB. David Dyer-Bennet: > She does say "...important in the tribe". That's not quite IMHO a > claim that she's a dragon, but it's closer than "important to", > anyway. While I concur with the implied '[of Dragons]', it might be significant to note that -nowhere- in that conversation is the tribe that is meant -actually-indicated-. Steve, perhaps wisely, leaves it as an exercise for the reader. I also concur with David's homing in on the critical word usage: 'in', and not 'to'. Sethra, so far as I can tell, does not use her words imprecisely; she is also speaking from a position of personal experience, and a significant experience as well -- how she was associated with the Tribes. I do disagree with David's suggestion that saying 'in the tribe' does not mean she was a dragon; considering the tribes at that time, you were either a member because you had that blood and lived up to it, or you were an outcast and Dolivar was going to collect you some time soon for a good talking-to about an idea he has. Again, I don't have 'Jhereg' handy, and I don't recall precisely where else they discuss the tribes and the origins of the Empire, but I think that though subtle, the above is pretty definitive as to how Sethra was considered at the Empire's start... Thomas Crain From bonham15 at cox.net Wed Oct 29 14:37:52 2003 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:37:52 -0600 Subject: Pronunciation Guide References: Message-ID: <001901c39e6d$49e6eb40$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> i just listened to myself say fairy and ferry... fairy i say with no tonal empasis, on ferry i drop somewhat at the end of the word... dunno.. i'm just a stinkin midwesterner. we talk funny anyway. andy > On Tue, 28 Oct 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > > @> Let's take a poll. > @> > @> 1. Do you pronounce "Don" and "dawn" the same? > > I actually had a similar discussion with a friend recently about 'fairy' > and 'ferry'. This was particularly disconcerting because: > > a) I couldn't notice a difference when he pronounced them or played a > sound file of someone else doing so. > b) He claimed I pronounced them differently despite not being aware of any > difference. > > Damned association cortex. From mam at theworld.com Wed Oct 29 15:17:15 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:17:15 -0500 Subject: Pronunciation Guide In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Oct 2003, John Klein wrote: #I actually had a similar discussion with a friend recently about 'fairy' #and 'ferry'. This was particularly disconcerting because: # #a) I couldn't notice a difference when he pronounced them or played a # sound file of someone else doing so. #b) He claimed I pronounced them differently despite not being aware of any # difference. This is known to happen. William Labov, who is damn' near the father of variation studies (and who's right here at Penn, and giving a talk tomorrow that I may have to miss, dammit!) was IIRC the first to show it. -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From mam at theworld.com Wed Oct 29 15:23:04 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:23:04 -0500 Subject: Sethra's House, the Necromancer In-Reply-To: <102920031858.12524.64e1@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 wyrmouroboros at comcast.net wrote: #While I concur with the implied '[of Dragons]', it might be #significant to note that -nowhere- in that conversation is the tribe #that is meant -actually-indicated-. Steve, perhaps wisely, leaves it #as an exercise for the reader. # #I also concur with David's homing in on the critical word usage: 'in', #and not 'to'. Sethra, so far as I can tell, does not use her words #imprecisely; she is also speaking from a position of personal #experience, and a significant experience as well -- how she was #associated with the Tribes. I do disagree with David's suggestion #that saying 'in the tribe' does not mean she was a dragon; considering #the tribes at that time, you were either a member because you had that #blood and lived up to it, or you were an outcast and Dolivar was going #to collect you some time soon for a good talking-to about an idea he #has. And what if she has both dragon (lowercase) AND dzur genes, and not as a crossbreed? (See Joel Polowin's short-short fanfic "Q-17", at http://www3.sympatico.ca/jpolowin/humour/q17.htm). Maybe both tribes consider her a member, or did so back then. And, as has been said before, even if she is a crossbreed, who's going to argue with Sethra Lavode? (cue song...) -- Mark A. Mandel From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Oct 29 15:41:21 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:41:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pronunciation Guide Message-ID: <200310292341.h9TNfLg09878@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > On Wed, 29 Oct 2003, John Klein wrote: > #I actually had a similar discussion with a friend recently about 'fairy' > #and 'ferry'. This was particularly disconcerting because: > # > #b) He claimed I pronounced them differently despite not being aware of any > # difference. > Mark A. Mandel said: > This is known to happen. William Labov, who is damn' near the father of > variation studies (and who's right here at Penn, and giving a talk > tomorrow that I may have to miss, dammit!) was IIRC the first to show > it. On a related note (ahem:), when I was studying operatic singing, I was amazed at how the slightest change in the tension of the vocal chords, the placement of the soft pallete, the movement of the tongue, and other physical actions could alter, very slightly, the sound of vowels. When singing an "Ah", it is very easy for the sound to change and become more of an "Uh", or somewhere in between. Of course, it was a pain in the neck to listen closely to my own vowels and correct them, not hearing much of a difference and having to rely on subtle physical alterations. Frustrating? You bet! :0 Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From pulmon at comcast.net Wed Oct 29 17:05:12 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 20:05:12 -0500 Subject: Joining the Dzur Message-ID: <1CFFE494-0A75-11D8-B4B0-0003938F1608@comcast.net> So what happens to the hero who fights his/her way into the House of the Dzur? Were the candidate not Houseless, would not the members of his/her former house be a tad unhappy? Probably not if the hero were a Teckla or a Jhereg since one can enter either of those houses without having a defined genome. However, wouldn't the House of the Dragon be unhappy if a member were talented enough to enter the Dzur, and did so? Can one be a member of more than one House at a time? How about genetic purity? One can only procreate with members of one's own House (at least without incurring certain consequences). Would the House of the Dzur truly be honored by adding the genes of a Teckla hero? There seems to be something here that is either incompletely thought out or far deeper than I am. What is the House of a Houseless person? What is his/her genotype? "Half-breeds" seem to be lower than outcasts, but allowing them to join one of the 17 defined Houses is asking for mongrelization of the entire House, a concept inconsistent with Dragaeran eugenics. In summary, I only see problems with two types of Hero who try to join the House of the Dzur: Those with a House and those without one. Among those with a House, little trouble would emerge for Teckla or Jhereg, but it seems unlikely that a member of one of those Houses would be welcomed with open arms into the Dzur. From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Wed Oct 29 17:19:53 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 17:19:53 -0800 Subject: Joining the Dzur In-Reply-To: <1CFFE494-0A75-11D8-B4B0-0003938F1608@comcast.net> References: <1CFFE494-0A75-11D8-B4B0-0003938F1608@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20031030011953.GA14567@ofb.net> On Wed, Oct 29, 2003 at 08:05:12PM -0500, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > having a defined genome. However, wouldn't the House of the Dragon be > unhappy if a member were talented enough to enter the Dzur, and did so? Don't see why, other than being miffed that someone that good was leaving them (if she did leave.) Their genetic purity isn't at risk, although that might reject the hero's crossbreed children. > How about genetic purity? One can only procreate with members of one's > own House (at least without incurring certain consequences). Would the > House of the Dzur truly be honored by adding the genes of a Teckla > hero? Presumably yes. Teckla and Jhereg are big pools; Dzur is a small selective pool. But it's still open. > What is the House of a Houseless person? What is his/her genotype? Uh, no House? And the genotype is whatever it was. Unless you mean the people outside the Empire, in which case they have no house and possibly have mixed genotypes. > "Half-breeds" seem to be lower than outcasts, but allowing them to join > one of the 17 defined Houses is asking for mongrelization of the entire > House, a concept inconsistent with Dragaeran eugenics. Different Houses can have different attitudes to eugenics. > those with a House, little trouble would emerge for Teckla or Jhereg, > but it seems unlikely that a member of one of those Houses would be > welcomed with open arms into the Dzur. Open arms or not, they're still brought in. Mellar. Presumably the point is that if you can fight your way in you are Dzur, or deserve to be, and your cross-House genes will improve what it means to be Dzur. Darwinism at work. -xx- Damien X-) From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Oct 29 17:35:51 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 17:35:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Joining the Dzur In-Reply-To: <20031030011953.GA14567@ofb.net> References: <1CFFE494-0A75-11D8-B4B0-0003938F1608@comcast.net> <20031030011953.GA14567@ofb.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Oct 2003, Damien Sullivan wrote: > Presumably the point is that if you can fight your way in you are Dzur, or > deserve to be, and your cross-House genes will improve what it means to be > Dzur. Darwinism at work. Do we have evidence of House shifters having children accepted in a new House (outside the Jhereg or Teckla)? The Dzur code may compel them to allow a Jhereg a fighting chance to get in, but that doesn't mean there's a welcoming committee with open arms and sons or daughters to breed with... From bonham15 at cox.net Wed Oct 29 17:37:36 2003 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 19:37:36 -0600 Subject: Joining the Dzur References: <1CFFE494-0A75-11D8-B4B0-0003938F1608@comcast.net> <20031030011953.GA14567@ofb.net> Message-ID: <000c01c39e86$65f70680$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> drawing a blank, but the jhereg who was one of the high council and who horked the jhereg treasury had fought himself into the house of the dzur then promptly left after he did it...... i believe he was at least a halfbreed, if not more than 2 ho uses genetically.... andy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Damien Sullivan" To: "Dragaera List" Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 7:19 PM Subject: Re: Joining the Dzur > On Wed, Oct 29, 2003 at 08:05:12PM -0500, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > > > having a defined genome. However, wouldn't the House of the Dragon be > > unhappy if a member were talented enough to enter the Dzur, and did so? > > Don't see why, other than being miffed that someone that good was leaving them > (if she did leave.) Their genetic purity isn't at risk, although that might > reject the hero's crossbreed children. > > > How about genetic purity? One can only procreate with members of one's > > own House (at least without incurring certain consequences). Would the > > House of the Dzur truly be honored by adding the genes of a Teckla > > hero? > > Presumably yes. Teckla and Jhereg are big pools; Dzur is a small selective > pool. But it's still open. > > > What is the House of a Houseless person? What is his/her genotype? > > Uh, no House? And the genotype is whatever it was. Unless you mean the > people outside the Empire, in which case they have no house and possibly have > mixed genotypes. > > > "Half-breeds" seem to be lower than outcasts, but allowing them to join > > one of the 17 defined Houses is asking for mongrelization of the entire > > House, a concept inconsistent with Dragaeran eugenics. > > Different Houses can have different attitudes to eugenics. > > > those with a House, little trouble would emerge for Teckla or Jhereg, > > but it seems unlikely that a member of one of those Houses would be > > welcomed with open arms into the Dzur. > > Open arms or not, they're still brought in. Mellar. > > Presumably the point is that if you can fight your way in you are Dzur, or > deserve to be, and your cross-House genes will improve what it means to be > Dzur. Darwinism at work. > > -xx- Damien X-) From dusty at sayersnet.com Wed Oct 29 17:56:21 2003 From: dusty at sayersnet.com (J A 'Dusty' Sayers) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 20:56:21 -0500 Subject: Joining the Dzur In-Reply-To: <000c01c39e86$65f70680$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> References: <1CFFE494-0A75-11D8-B4B0-0003938F1608@comcast.net> <20031030011953.GA14567@ofb.net> <000c01c39e86$65f70680$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> Message-ID: <3FA06FC5.8010102@sayersnet.com> I did get the idea that the fact that he was a half-breed and a Jhereg was at least slightly embarassing to the Dzur--at least the fact that someone of that background could get into the house, and would then throw it away, seemed likely to embarass the dickens out of them. At least, that's how I read that part of Mellar's scheme in _Jhereg._ I suspect that on the whole, though, someone who earns his way into the house and comports himself with the dignity (or perhaps the bravura) expected of a Dzur would be fully, or at least sufficiently, accepted by them that he could marry one of their daughters and attend their social functions. After all, why let someone earn his way in and then treat him as if he didn't? Surely that would be beneath the House of Heroes--if nothing else, they can't admit that someone who beat them isn't worthy of being treated as an equal; if their inferiors can beat them, they're in the same fix, more or less, that the Jhereg are if peoplpe know someone can lift the Council treasury and escape. At least, that is how I see it. I could be wrong. It's a big and complex world, and I sometimes feel as simple as an Easterner. bonham15 wrote: >drawing a blank, but the jhereg who was one of the high council and who >horked the jhereg treasury had fought himself into the house of the dzur >then promptly left after he did it...... i believe he was at least a >halfbreed, if not more than 2 ho uses genetically.... > >andy >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Damien Sullivan" >To: "Dragaera List" >Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 7:19 PM >Subject: Re: Joining the Dzur > > > > >>On Wed, Oct 29, 2003 at 08:05:12PM -0500, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: >> >> >> >>>having a defined genome. However, wouldn't the House of the Dragon be >>>unhappy if a member were talented enough to enter the Dzur, and did so? >>> >>> >>Don't see why, other than being miffed that someone that good was leaving >> >> >them > > >>(if she did leave.) Their genetic purity isn't at risk, although that >> >> >might > > >>reject the hero's crossbreed children. >> >> >> >>>How about genetic purity? One can only procreate with members of one's >>>own House (at least without incurring certain consequences). Would the >>>House of the Dzur truly be honored by adding the genes of a Teckla >>>hero? >>> >>> >>Presumably yes. Teckla and Jhereg are big pools; Dzur is a small >> >> >selective > > >>pool. But it's still open. >> >> >> >>>What is the House of a Houseless person? What is his/her genotype? >>> >>> >>Uh, no House? And the genotype is whatever it was. Unless you mean the >>people outside the Empire, in which case they have no house and possibly >> >> >have > > >>mixed genotypes. >> >> >> >>>"Half-breeds" seem to be lower than outcasts, but allowing them to join >>>one of the 17 defined Houses is asking for mongrelization of the entire >>>House, a concept inconsistent with Dragaeran eugenics. >>> >>> >>Different Houses can have different attitudes to eugenics. >> >> >> >>>those with a House, little trouble would emerge for Teckla or Jhereg, >>>but it seems unlikely that a member of one of those Houses would be >>>welcomed with open arms into the Dzur. >>> >>> >>Open arms or not, they're still brought in. Mellar. >> >>Presumably the point is that if you can fight your way in you are Dzur, or >>deserve to be, and your cross-House genes will improve what it means to be >>Dzur. Darwinism at work. >> >>-xx- Damien X-) >> >> > > > > -- J A Dusty Sayers Home Page http://www.sayersnet.com/~dusty/ Rescue the Princess http://www.sayersnet.com/~dusty/rescue/ 'Pleidiol wyf i'm gwlad.' --Evan James, 'Hen Wlad fy Nhadau' From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Oct 29 17:54:44 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 17:54:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sethra's House, the Necromancer Message-ID: You're getting much too much mileage from "in" - remember, Sethra's not speaking English into a tape recorder which has been transcribed. Also we have little evidence about the differences between "tribe" and "House". Maybe Sethra and Dolivar were best buds and hung out so much she was unofficially but effectively in the tribe... On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 wyrmouroboros at comcast.net wrote: > Steve (In a roundabout way): > > > > ... I, who had some importance in the tribe [of Dragons]... > > > > --Sethra Lavode, _Issola_, p. 41 (Hardcover). > Me: > > > > It would appear, at least at the time of the Empire's founding, that > > > > Sethra Lavode is or was considered a Dragon. What that means to the > > > > current estimation of her House is up to the PTI (Power That Is, i.e. > > > > Steve). > Phil Hart: > > > I disagree - she's still important to House Dragon, but that doesn't make > > > her a Dragon. She's sui generis - maybe she's a Dragon and a Dzur, maybe > > > whatever - which _is_ up to SKZB. > David Dyer-Bennet: > > She does say "...important in the tribe". That's not quite IMHO a > > claim that she's a dragon, but it's closer than "important to", > > anyway. > > While I concur with the implied '[of Dragons]', it might be significant to note that -nowhere- in that conversation is the tribe that is meant -actually-indicated-. Steve, perhaps wisely, leaves it as an exercise for the reader. > > I also concur with David's homing in on the critical word usage: 'in', and not 'to'. Sethra, so far as I can tell, does not use her words imprecisely; she is also speaking from a position of personal experience, and a significant experience as well -- how she was associated with the Tribes. I do disagree with David's suggestion that saying 'in the tribe' does not mean she was a dragon; considering the tribes at that time, you were either a member because you had that blood and lived up to it, or you were an outcast and Dolivar was going to collect you some time soon for a good talking-to about an idea he has. > > Again, I don't have 'Jhereg' handy, and I don't recall precisely where else they discuss the tribes and the origins of the Empire, but I think that though subtle, the above is pretty definitive as to how Sethra was considered at the Empire's start... > > > Thomas Crain > > From bonham15 at cox.net Wed Oct 29 18:02:37 2003 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 20:02:37 -0600 Subject: Joining the Dzur References: <1CFFE494-0A75-11D8-B4B0-0003938F1608@comcast.net> <20031030011953.GA14567@ofb.net> <000c01c39e86$65f70680$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> <3FA06FC5.8010102@sayersnet.com> Message-ID: <000801c39e89$e45771b0$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> annnnd this is a magical world. it is entirely possible that if you are in the dzur house while not being a dzur, and then breed with a dzur, that the genes of the house become dominant and wipe out the halfbreed.. only the stev... err only the shadow knows.. andy > I did get the idea that the fact that he was a half-breed and a Jhereg > was at least slightly embarassing to the Dzur--at least the fact that > someone of that background could get into the house, and would then > throw it away, seemed likely to embarass the dickens out of them. At > least, that's how I read that part of Mellar's scheme in _Jhereg._ > > I suspect that on the whole, though, someone who earns his way into the > house and comports himself with the dignity (or perhaps the bravura) > expected of a Dzur would be fully, or at least sufficiently, accepted by > them that he could marry one of their daughters and attend their social > functions. After all, why let someone earn his way in and then treat > him as if he didn't? Surely that would be beneath the House of > Heroes--if nothing else, they can't admit that someone who beat them > isn't worthy of being treated as an equal; if their inferiors can beat > them, they're in the same fix, more or less, that the Jhereg are if > peoplpe know someone can lift the Council treasury and escape. > > At least, that is how I see it. I could be wrong. It's a big and > complex world, and I sometimes feel as simple as an Easterner. > > bonham15 wrote: > > >drawing a blank, but the jhereg who was one of the high council and who > >horked the jhereg treasury had fought himself into the house of the dzur > >then promptly left after he did it...... i believe he was at least a > >halfbreed, if not more than 2 ho uses genetically.... > > > >andy > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Damien Sullivan" > >To: "Dragaera List" > >Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 7:19 PM > >Subject: Re: Joining the Dzur > > > > > > > > > >>On Wed, Oct 29, 2003 at 08:05:12PM -0500, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>having a defined genome. However, wouldn't the House of the Dragon be > >>>unhappy if a member were talented enough to enter the Dzur, and did so? > >>> > >>> > >>Don't see why, other than being miffed that someone that good was leaving > >> > >> > >them > > > > > >>(if she did leave.) Their genetic purity isn't at risk, although that > >> > >> > >might > > > > > >>reject the hero's crossbreed children. > >> > >> > >> > >>>How about genetic purity? One can only procreate with members of one's > >>>own House (at least without incurring certain consequences). Would the > >>>House of the Dzur truly be honored by adding the genes of a Teckla > >>>hero? > >>> > >>> > >>Presumably yes. Teckla and Jhereg are big pools; Dzur is a small > >> > >> > >selective > > > > > >>pool. But it's still open. > >> > >> > >> > >>>What is the House of a Houseless person? What is his/her genotype? > >>> > >>> > >>Uh, no House? And the genotype is whatever it was. Unless you mean the > >>people outside the Empire, in which case they have no house and possibly > >> > >> > >have > > > > > >>mixed genotypes. > >> > >> > >> > >>>"Half-breeds" seem to be lower than outcasts, but allowing them to join > >>>one of the 17 defined Houses is asking for mongrelization of the entire > >>>House, a concept inconsistent with Dragaeran eugenics. > >>> > >>> > >>Different Houses can have different attitudes to eugenics. > >> > >> > >> > >>>those with a House, little trouble would emerge for Teckla or Jhereg, > >>>but it seems unlikely that a member of one of those Houses would be > >>>welcomed with open arms into the Dzur. > >>> > >>> > >>Open arms or not, they're still brought in. Mellar. > >> > >>Presumably the point is that if you can fight your way in you are Dzur, or > >>deserve to be, and your cross-House genes will improve what it means to be > >>Dzur. Darwinism at work. > >> > >>-xx- Damien X-) > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > -- > J A Dusty Sayers > > Home Page http://www.sayersnet.com/~dusty/ > Rescue the Princess http://www.sayersnet.com/~dusty/rescue/ > > 'Pleidiol wyf i'm gwlad.' > --Evan James, 'Hen Wlad fy Nhadau' > > > > From pulmon at comcast.net Wed Oct 29 18:22:33 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:22:33 -0500 Subject: Sethra's House, the Necromancer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Please don't say that it all depends on what the meaning of "in" is? On Oct 29, 2003, at 8:54 PM, Philip Hart wrote: > You're getting much too much mileage from "in" - remember, Sethra's not > speaking English into a tape recorder which has been transcribed. > Also we > have little evidence about the differences between "tribe" and "House". > Maybe Sethra and Dolivar were best buds and hung out so much she was > unofficially but effectively in the tribe... > > > On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 wyrmouroboros at comcast.net wrote: > >> Steve (In a roundabout way): >>>>> ... I, who had some importance in the tribe [of Dragons]... >>>>> --Sethra Lavode, _Issola_, p. 41 (Hardcover). >> Me: >>>>> It would appear, at least at the time of the Empire's founding, >>>>> that >>>>> Sethra Lavode is or was considered a Dragon. What that means to >>>>> the >>>>> current estimation of her House is up to the PTI (Power That Is, >>>>> i.e. >>>>> Steve). >> Phil Hart: >>>> I disagree - she's still important to House Dragon, but that >>>> doesn't make >>>> her a Dragon. She's sui generis - maybe she's a Dragon and a Dzur, >>>> maybe >>>> whatever - which _is_ up to SKZB. >> David Dyer-Bennet: >>> She does say "...important in the tribe". That's not quite IMHO a >>> claim that she's a dragon, but it's closer than "important to", >>> anyway. >> >> While I concur with the implied '[of Dragons]', it might be >> significant to note that -nowhere- in that conversation is the tribe >> that is meant -actually-indicated-. Steve, perhaps wisely, leaves it >> as an exercise for the reader. >> >> I also concur with David's homing in on the critical word usage: >> 'in', and not 'to'. Sethra, so far as I can tell, does not use her >> words imprecisely; she is also speaking from a position of personal >> experience, and a significant experience as well -- how she was >> associated with the Tribes. I do disagree with David's suggestion >> that saying 'in the tribe' does not mean she was a dragon; >> considering the tribes at that time, you were either a member because >> you had that blood and lived up to it, or you were an outcast and >> Dolivar was going to collect you some time soon for a good talking-to >> about an idea he has. >> >> Again, I don't have 'Jhereg' handy, and I don't recall precisely >> where else they discuss the tribes and the origins of the Empire, but >> I think that though subtle, the above is pretty definitive as to how >> Sethra was considered at the Empire's start... >> >> >> Thomas Crain >> >> > From ReVibe68 at aol.com Wed Oct 29 19:14:32 2003 From: ReVibe68 at aol.com (ReVibe68 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 22:14:32 EST Subject: Uma Thurman's House [no spoilers] Message-ID: <12e.3404617e.2cd1dc18@aol.com> In a message dated 10/28/03 10:01:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU writes: > Kill Bill has about two minutes of significant dialogue, some of which > would be best left as a surprise - so watch out for spoilers, please. > > Sorry 'bout that. Won't happen again. Politicians and Diapers have one thing in common. They should be changed regularly and for The Same Reason!!. Truth Is Truth. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Thu Oct 30 08:37:03 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 08:37:03 -0800 Subject: Pronunciation Guide References: <200310292341.h9TNfLg09878@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <004701c39f04$0ee881b0$fe00000a@steve> > > On Wed, 29 Oct 2003, John Klein wrote: > > #I actually had a similar discussion with a friend recently about 'fairy' > > #and 'ferry'. This was particularly disconcerting because: > > # > > #b) He claimed I pronounced them differently despite not being aware of any > > # difference. > > > Mark A. Mandel said: > > This is known to happen. William Labov, who is damn' near the father of > > variation studies (and who's right here at Penn, and giving a talk > > tomorrow that I may have to miss, dammit!) was IIRC the first to show > > it. > > On a related note (ahem:), when I was studying operatic singing, > I was amazed at how the slightest change in the tension of > the vocal chords, the placement of the soft pallete, the > movement of the tongue, and other physical actions could alter, > very slightly, the sound of vowels. When singing an "Ah", > it is very easy for the sound to change and become more > of an "Uh", or somewhere in between. > > Of course, it was a pain in the neck to listen closely to my own vowels > and correct them, not hearing much of a difference and having to rely > on subtle physical alterations. Frustrating? You bet! > For the record, I pronounce "Don" and "dawn" quite differently, but "ferry" and "fairy" the same, as far as I can tell. And speaking of records, what you reminded me of was when I was doing my CD, "A Rose for Iconoclastes." The tune "She's Gone" was making me crazy. We had down the entire vocal track, except that every single time I reached for the high note (The first and third "She's gone" in each chorus) I missed it. Eventually, Sara Diedrich, who was doing the vocal coaching for me and who is also opera trained, leaned into the talkback mic and said, "Don't sing 'She's gone.' Sing 'She's gun.'" I did, and not only did I nail the note, but it *sounded* like "gone" not "gun." From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Oct 30 10:52:43 2003 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:52:43 EST Subject: Pronunciation Guide Message-ID: <155.268874e7.2cd2b7fb@aol.com> SKZB wrote: >And speaking of records, what you reminded me of was when I was doing my CD, >"A Rose for Iconoclastes." The tune "She's Gone" was making me crazy. We >had down the entire vocal track, except that every single time I reached for >the high note (The first and third "She's gone" in each chorus) I missed it. >Eventually, Sara Diedrich, who was doing the vocal coaching for me and who >is also opera trained, leaned into the talkback mic and said, "Don't sing >'She's gone.' Sing 'She's gun.'" >I did, and not only did I nail the note, but it *sounded* like "gone" not >"gun." So that explains why lyrics are so hard to figure out from listening to the record, (or CD as the case is in the year 2003.) " 'Scuse me while I kiss this guy. ", Jimi Hendrix " And theres a wino down the road ", Robert Plant, Led Zepplin, stairway to heaven John D. Barbato, OD From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Oct 30 11:51:11 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 11:51:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pronunciation Guide Message-ID: <200310301951.h9UJpBg13910@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > SKZB wrote: > >And speaking of records, what you reminded me of was when I was doing my CD, > >"A Rose for Iconoclastes." The tune "She's Gone" was making me crazy. We > >had down the entire vocal track, except that every single time I reached for > >the high note (The first and third "She's gone" in each chorus) I missed it. > > >Eventually, Sara Diedrich, who was doing the vocal coaching for me and who > >is also opera trained, leaned into the talkback mic and said, "Don't sing > >'She's gone.' Sing 'She's gun.'" > > >I did, and not only did I nail the note, but it *sounded* like "gone" not > >"gun." Hehe. Yeah, those vocal coaches and their tricks.... I don't know how they do it sometimes, but it seems to work. (Actualy, the best vocal coaches are able to explain their teachings in different ways until the student understands it, even if they have to "trick" the student into doing it right. Very few people will be able to get the same direction from "drop your larynx when you breath", so being able to offer different examples or ways of explaining what is intended is a great boon.) My teacher could get rather graphic while trying to trick me into doing something correctly. Rather funny, really....:) > John D. Barbato, OD wrote: > So that explains why lyrics are so hard to figure out from listening to the > record, (or CD as the case is in the year 2003.) > > " 'Scuse me while I kiss this guy. ", Jimi Hendrix > " And theres a wino down the road ", Robert Plant, Led Zepplin, stairway to > heaven Um, actualy, not always. Sometimes it's just bad enunciation on the part of the singer (due to any number of things). However, in Steve's case, I never noticed that he was singing anything other than "gone". Though I'll admit that enunciation is sometimes asked to take a back seat. During the last musical I was in, the Music Director told me that, while my enunciation was great, I should tone it down a bit. I've always been on the side of "sing clearly, dammit. I can't understand what you're saying!", so this came as a slight blow ... "But I want be understood." "You will be, Chris. Trust me." And Steve, I feel for ya on those high notes. They can be fun sometimes, but damn! :0 Chris "You're waiting for your Dark Knight on his white horse. I'm waiting for his sister in a Cherry-Red Porsche." - Steven Brust "Brother and Sister" - "A Rose for Iconoclastes" From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Oct 30 12:13:35 2003 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:13:35 EST Subject: Pronunciation Guide Message-ID: <15c.262e7e47.2cd2caef@aol.com> On Oct 30 Chris Olson wrote: >Um, actualy, not always. Sometimes it's just bad enunciation on the part of the >singer (due to any number of things). >However, in Steve's case, I never noticed that he was singing anything other than "gone". Though I'll admit that enunciation is sometimes asked to take a back seat. >During the last musical I was in, the Music Directortold me that, while my enunciation was great, I should tone it down >abit. I've always been on the side of "sing clearly, dammit. I can't understand what you're saying!", so this came as a >slight blow ... "But I want be understood.""You will be, Chris. Trust me."< sigh> >And Steve, I feel for ya on those high notes. They can be fun sometimes, but damn >!:0Chris Can't you, just once, let me have my fantasy 'aha' moment without spoiling it? Anyway, professional musicians would never let other things, ie:DRUGS, alcohol, getting whacked in the balls with a mike stand, affect their performance. Your just too darn cynical. ;) John D. Barbato, OD From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Oct 30 13:21:47 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:21:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pronunciation Guide Message-ID: <200310302121.h9ULLlg27014@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> John D. Barbato, OD wrote: > Can't you, just once, let me have my fantasy 'aha' moment without spoiling > it? Aw, shucks. Yeah, go ahead. I retract my statement (just this once, though!). > Anyway, professional musicians would never let other things, ie:DRUGS, > alcohol, getting whacked in the balls with a mike stand, affect their performance. Heh. They *shouldn't*, perhaps. :) I will say that there's a huge difference between live performance and a CD or video performance. I'm more critical of a recorded piece, because they get a bunch of takes to get it right. Live performances are completely different, which is why I prefer them; you never know what might happen to throw the performance off. I think my favorite performing experience (well, tied for first, at least:) was doing Vaudville/Melodrama with interactive audiences and a cast which loved playing "Let's toss this in, see what happens." At least there, if something unexpected happened to throw the show off, you could just turn to the audience and say "I love live theater..." > Your just too darn cynical. ;) Heh. That's what THEY want you to believe! I can't be all that cynical--I still believe in the base goodness of human beings. Just warring sides, and all. ;) :) Chris (Who doesn't wish to offend, and loves both the science and act of singing....:) "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, son." - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm From bearnw at ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 30 16:39:40 2003 From: bearnw at ix.netcom.com (Bear) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:39:40 -0800 Subject: Joining the Dzur Message-ID: <3FA1AF4C.3000503@ix.netcom.com> Might this not have something to do with the info that would have embarrassed the Dzur? That Mellar had bred with a high-profile Dzur daughter??? An interesting multi-breed there just waiting for a plot... bear >annnnd this is a magical world. it is entirely possible that if you are in >the dzur house while not being a dzur, and then breed with a dzur, that the >genes of the house become dominant and wipe out the halfbreed.. only the >stev... err only the shadow knows.. andy > I did get the idea that the fact that he was a half-breed and a Jhereg > was at least slightly embarassing to the Dzur--at least the fact that > someone of that background could get into the house, and would then > throw it away, seemed likely to embarass the dickens out of them. At > least, that's how I read that part of Mellar's scheme in _Jhereg._ > > I suspect that on the whole, though, someone who earns his way into the > house and comports himself with the dignity (or perhaps the bravura) > expected of a Dzur would be fully, or at least sufficiently, accepted by > them that he could marry one of their daughters and attend their social > functions. After all, why let someone earn his way in and then treat > him as if he didn't? Surely that would be beneath the House of > Heroes--if nothing else, they can't admit that someone who beat them > isn't worthy of being treated as an equal; if their inferiors can beat > them, they're in the same fix, more or less, that the Jhereg are if > peoplpe know someone can lift the Council treasury and escape. > > At least, that is how I see it. I could be wrong. It's a big and > complex world, and I sometimes feel as simple as an Easterner. > > bonham15 wrote: From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Oct 30 16:51:45 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:51:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Joining the Dzur In-Reply-To: <3FA1AF4C.3000503@ix.netcom.com> References: <3FA1AF4C.3000503@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: Dear SKZB: Just so you know, We're going to have to insist that after finishing the 19 books of the Vladiad you start in on the next set of books, about 136 of them, about simple hybrids - We suggest starting with Jhereg/Phoenix. Then you can start on the next 680 books starting with Jhereg/Phoenix/Teckla. Looking forward to reading Iorich/Jhegaala/Dzur/Tiassa. Yours, The Cycles On Thu, 30 Oct 2003, Bear wrote: > Might this not have something to do with the info that would have > embarrassed the Dzur? That Mellar had bred with a high-profile Dzur > daughter??? An interesting multi-breed there just waiting for a plot... > > bear > > >annnnd this is a magical world. it is entirely possible that if you are in > >the dzur house while not being a dzur, and then breed with a dzur, that the > >genes of the house become dominant and wipe out the halfbreed.. only the > >stev... err only the shadow knows.. > > andy > > > > > I did get the idea that the fact that he was a half-breed and a Jhereg > > was at least slightly embarassing to the Dzur--at least the fact that > > someone of that background could get into the house, and would then > > throw it away, seemed likely to embarass the dickens out of them. At > > least, that's how I read that part of Mellar's scheme in _Jhereg._ > > > > I suspect that on the whole, though, someone who earns his way into the > > house and comports himself with the dignity (or perhaps the bravura) > > expected of a Dzur would be fully, or at least sufficiently, accepted by > > them that he could marry one of their daughters and attend their social > > functions. After all, why let someone earn his way in and then treat > > him as if he didn't? Surely that would be beneath the House of > > Heroes--if nothing else, they can't admit that someone who beat them > > isn't worthy of being treated as an equal; if their inferiors can beat > > them, they're in the same fix, more or less, that the Jhereg are if > > peoplpe know someone can lift the Council treasury and escape. > > > > At least, that is how I see it. I could be wrong. It's a big and > > complex world, and I sometimes feel as simple as an Easterner. > > > > bonham15 wrote: > > > From lister at insaneninjahero.com Thu Oct 30 18:36:01 2003 From: lister at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 18:36:01 -0800 Subject: Joining the Dzur In-Reply-To: References: <3FA1AF4C.3000503@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3FA1CA91.4060205@insaneninjahero.com> Philip Hart wrote: > Dear SKZB: > > Just so you know, We're going to have to insist that after finishing the > 19 books of the Vladiad you start in on the next set of books, about 136 > of them, about simple hybrids - We suggest starting with Jhereg/Phoenix. > Then you can start on the next 680 books starting with Jhereg/Phoenix/Teckla. > > Looking forward to reading Iorich/Jhegaala/Dzur/Tiassa. > > Yours, > The Cycles Should that have been "The Cychos" ? Because frankly, I think that is what we are... > > > > > On Thu, 30 Oct 2003, Bear wrote: > > >>Might this not have something to do with the info that would have >>embarrassed the Dzur? That Mellar had bred with a high-profile Dzur >>daughter??? An interesting multi-breed there just waiting for a plot... >> >>bear >> >> >>>annnnd this is a magical world. it is entirely possible that if you are in >>>the dzur house while not being a dzur, and then breed with a dzur, that the >>>genes of the house become dominant and wipe out the halfbreed.. only the >>>stev... err only the shadow knows.. >> >>andy >> >> >> >> >>>I did get the idea that the fact that he was a half-breed and a Jhereg >>>was at least slightly embarassing to the Dzur--at least the fact that >>>someone of that background could get into the house, and would then >>>throw it away, seemed likely to embarass the dickens out of them. At >>>least, that's how I read that part of Mellar's scheme in _Jhereg._ >>> >>>I suspect that on the whole, though, someone who earns his way into the >>>house and comports himself with the dignity (or perhaps the bravura) >>>expected of a Dzur would be fully, or at least sufficiently, accepted by >>>them that he could marry one of their daughters and attend their social >>>functions. After all, why let someone earn his way in and then treat >>>him as if he didn't? Surely that would be beneath the House of >>>Heroes--if nothing else, they can't admit that someone who beat them >>>isn't worthy of being treated as an equal; if their inferiors can beat >>>them, they're in the same fix, more or less, that the Jhereg are if >>>peoplpe know someone can lift the Council treasury and escape. >>> >>>At least, that is how I see it. I could be wrong. It's a big and >>>complex world, and I sometimes feel as simple as an Easterner. >>> >>>bonham15 wrote: >> >> >> > > From bonham15 at cox.net Thu Oct 30 23:34:16 2003 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 01:34:16 -0600 Subject: Joining the Dzur References: <3FA1AF4C.3000503@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <002a01c39f81$639d0be0$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> mr. hart. i've decided to nominate you for devious bastard of the year, slightly ahead of my ex girlfriend......;) andy > Dear SKZB: > > Just so you know, We're going to have to insist that after finishing the > 19 books of the Vladiad you start in on the next set of books, about 136 > of them, about simple hybrids - We suggest starting with Jhereg/Phoenix. > Then you can start on the next 680 books starting with Jhereg/Phoenix/Teckla. > > Looking forward to reading Iorich/Jhegaala/Dzur/Tiassa. > > Yours, > The Cycles > > > > > On Thu, 30 Oct 2003, Bear wrote: > > > Might this not have something to do with the info that would have > > embarrassed the Dzur? That Mellar had bred with a high-profile Dzur > > daughter??? An interesting multi-breed there just waiting for a plot... > > > > bear > > > > >annnnd this is a magical world. it is entirely possible that if you are in > > >the dzur house while not being a dzur, and then breed with a dzur, that the > > >genes of the house become dominant and wipe out the halfbreed.. only the > > >stev... err only the shadow knows.. > > > > andy > > > > > > > > > I did get the idea that the fact that he was a half-breed and a Jhereg > > > was at least slightly embarassing to the Dzur--at least the fact that > > > someone of that background could get into the house, and would then > > > throw it away, seemed likely to embarass the dickens out of them. At > > > least, that's how I read that part of Mellar's scheme in _Jhereg._ > > > > > > I suspect that on the whole, though, someone who earns his way into the > > > house and comports himself with the dignity (or perhaps the bravura) > > > expected of a Dzur would be fully, or at least sufficiently, accepted by > > > them that he could marry one of their daughters and attend their social > > > functions. After all, why let someone earn his way in and then treat > > > him as if he didn't? Surely that would be beneath the House of > > > Heroes--if nothing else, they can't admit that someone who beat them > > > isn't worthy of being treated as an equal; if their inferiors can beat > > > them, they're in the same fix, more or less, that the Jhereg are if > > > peoplpe know someone can lift the Council treasury and escape. > > > > > > At least, that is how I see it. I could be wrong. It's a big and > > > complex world, and I sometimes feel as simple as an Easterner. > > > > > > bonham15 wrote: > > > > > > > From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Oct 31 07:28:27 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 07:28:27 -0800 Subject: Pronunciation Guide References: <200310301951.h9UJpBg13910@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <002701c39fc3$a1dc8a10$fe00000a@steve> > > Hehe. Yeah, those vocal coaches and their tricks.... I don't know > how they do it sometimes, but it seems to work. (Actualy, the best vocal > coaches are able to explain their teachings in different ways until > the student understands it, even if they have to "trick" the student > into doing it right. Well put. I've noticed that is pretty much true of all teachers of anything. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Oct 31 07:36:52 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 07:36:52 -0800 Subject: Pronunciation Guide References: <155.268874e7.2cd2b7fb@aol.com> Message-ID: <009a01c39fc4$ce912150$fe00000a@steve> > > So that explains why lyrics are so hard to figure out from listening to the > record, (or CD as the case is in the year 2003.) > Record. Record. It is a digital record of audio information. Nya. > " 'Scuse me while I kiss this guy. ", Jimi Hendrix > " And theres a wino down the road ", Robert Plant, Led Zepplin, stairway to > heaven My favorite of those has always been, "Slow motion Walter, the fire engine guy." From books at bofh.com Fri Oct 31 08:16:14 2003 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 09:16:14 -0700 Subject: Pronunciation Guide In-Reply-To: <002701c39fc3$a1dc8a10$fe00000a@steve> References: <200310301951.h9UJpBg13910@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <002701c39fc3$a1dc8a10$fe00000a@steve> Message-ID: <20031031161614.GA6694@bofh.com> On Fri, Oct 31, 2003 at 07:28:27AM -0800, Steven Brust wrote: > > > > > Hehe. Yeah, those vocal coaches and their tricks.... I don't know > > how they do it sometimes, but it seems to work. (Actualy, the best vocal > > coaches are able to explain their teachings in different ways until > > the student understands it, even if they have to "trick" the student > > into doing it right. > > Well put. I've noticed that is pretty much true of all teachers of > anything. "Relax your leg, and snap back". :) -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From mtiller at ntlworld.com Fri Oct 31 10:22:30 2003 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 18:22:30 -0000 Subject: Pronunciation Guide In-Reply-To: <009a01c39fc4$ce912150$fe00000a@steve> Message-ID: <002d01c39fdb$f553a620$6c956d51@sweetdrewydscc> -----Original Message----- From: Steven Brust [mailto:skzb at dreamcafe.com] Sent: 31 October 2003 15:37 To: Randi128 at aol.com; dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Pronunciation Guide > >Record. Record. It is a digital record of audio information. Nya. But Vinyl records are an Analogue recording, not digital. Nya, Nyah Nya. Mark From warlord at dragon.com Fri Oct 31 10:23:13 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:23:13 -0500 Subject: Pronunciation Guide In-Reply-To: <002d01c39fdb$f553a620$6c956d51@sweetdrewydscc> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Tiller [mailto:mtiller at ntlworld.com] > Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 1:23 PM > To: 'Steven Brust'; Randi128 at aol.com; dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE: Pronunciation Guide > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Steven Brust [mailto:skzb at dreamcafe.com] > Sent: 31 October 2003 15:37 > To: Randi128 at aol.com; dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Pronunciation Guide > > > > >Record. Record. It is a digital record of audio information. Nya. > > But Vinyl records are an Analogue recording, not digital. Nya, Nyah Nya. > > Mark Is that your vinyl say on the matter ? W From mtiller at ntlworld.com Fri Oct 31 10:30:18 2003 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 18:30:18 -0000 Subject: Pronunciation Guide In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002e01c39fdd$0c552000$6c956d51@sweetdrewydscc> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Steven Brust [mailto:skzb at dreamcafe.com] >>> Sent: 31 October 2003 15:37 >>> To: Randi128 at aol.com; dragaera at dragaera.info >>> Subject: Re: Pronunciation Guide > >> > >> >Record. Record. It is a digital record of audio information. Nya. > >> But Vinyl records are an Analogue recording, not digital. Nya, Nyah >> Nya. > >> Mark > Is that your vinyl say on the matter ? > W WARNING Incorrigible punster, please do not Incorrige!!! Mark From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Oct 31 12:40:38 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 12:40:38 -0800 Subject: Pronunciation Guide References: <002d01c39fdb$f553a620$6c956d51@sweetdrewydscc> Message-ID: <000601c39fef$3e829050$fe00000a@steve> > > > >Record. Record. It is a digital record of audio information. Nya. > > But Vinyl records are an Analogue recording, not digital. Nya, Nyah Nya. > The message to which I was responding (and which I quoted) was speaking of CDs. From ljenab at sunflower.com Fri Oct 31 12:49:20 2003 From: ljenab at sunflower.com (ljenab at sunflower.com) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 14:49:20 -0600 Subject: Pronunciation Guide In-Reply-To: <009a01c39fc4$ce912150$fe00000a@steve>; from skzb@dreamcafe.com on Fri, 31 Oct 2003 07:36:52 -0800 Message-ID: <200310312049.h9VKnLI30547@smtp.sunflower.com> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20031031/9451b59a/attachment.ksh From Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 31 12:51:20 2003 From: Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net (Daemian Spayde) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 12:51:20 -0800 Subject: All Hallow's Eve References: <002d01c39fdb$f553a620$6c956d51@sweetdrewydscc> <000601c39fef$3e829050$fe00000a@steve> Message-ID: <009501c39ff0$bd0e3c20$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> Geeze, shouldn't you people be out getting ready for Tricking or Treating, or at least Drinking and Treating? And here I thought I was the only one stuck at home until later one when all my 'responsible' friends get off work~ Daemian aka Katt "Swing a lot and don't get hit." ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven Brust To: Mark Tiller ; Randi128 at aol.com ; dragaera at dragaera.info Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 12:40 PM Subject: Re: Pronunciation Guide > > > >Record. Record. It is a digital record of audio information. Nya. > > But Vinyl records are an Analogue recording, not digital. Nya, Nyah Nya. > The message to which I was responding (and which I quoted) was speaking of CDs. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Oct 31 13:01:29 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:01:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: All Hallow's Eve Message-ID: <200310312101.h9VL1Tg28022@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Geeze, shouldn't you people be out getting ready for Tricking or Treating, or at least Drinking and Treating? Hey, I've got my All Hallow's T-Shirt on! Cute little Cthulhu, looking sad, saying "The other Gods won't play with me." That's pretty Halloweeny, right? > And here I thought I was the only one stuck at home until later one when all my 'responsible' friends get off work~ Nope. Fiscal Month-End, and all: I'm chained to the desk until They tell me I can leave. Da bastads! And on my second-favorite holiday, too.... 'Least I know I have the list to keep me company. :0 Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 31 13:02:00 2003 From: Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net (Daemian Spayde) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:02:00 -0800 Subject: Pronunciation Guide References: <200310312049.h9VKnLI30547@smtp.sunflower.com> Message-ID: <00cd01c39ff2$3ad140c0$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> My favorites are: Anything that Bob Dillon sang (what the HECK did his Music Teacher tell him to say?) Daemian aka Katt www.socal.ifgs.org ----- Original Message ----- From: ljenab at sunflower.com To: dragaera at dragaera.info Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 12:49 PM Subject: re: Re: Pronunciation Guide > " 'Scuse me while I kiss this guy. ", Jimi Hendrix > " And theres a wino down the road ", Robert Plant, Led Zepplin, stairway > to heaven > My favorite of those has always been, "Slow motion Walter, the fire engine > guy." > I always liked, "I want to rock and roll all night, and part of every day." From mam at theworld.com Fri Oct 31 13:43:46 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 16:43:46 -0500 Subject: Joining the Dzur In-Reply-To: <3FA1CA91.4060205@insaneninjahero.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Oct 2003, Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert wrote: #Philip Hart wrote: # #> Dear SKZB: #> #> Just so you know, We're going to have to insist that after finishing the #> 19 books of the Vladiad you start in on the next set of books, about 136 #> of them, about simple hybrids - We suggest starting with Jhereg/Phoenix. #> Then you can start on the next 680 books starting with Jhereg/Phoenix/Teckla. #> #> Looking forward to reading Iorich/Jhegaala/Dzur/Tiassa. #> #> Yours, #> The Cycles # #Should that have been "The Cychos" ? Because frankly, I think that is #what we are... "Psychos"? Indeed... (backing away slowly) -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From davids at kithrup.com Fri Oct 31 13:50:36 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:50:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Joining the Dzur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Thu, 30 Oct 2003, Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert wrote: > >#Philip Hart wrote: ># >#> Yours, >#> The Cycles ># >#Should that have been "The Cychos" ? Because frankly, I think that is >#what we are... > >"Psychos"? Indeed... (backing away slowly) > "The Psycho Cycles" sounds like a biker gang. "The Cycle Psychos" sounds like a gang for the extremely bipolar. "The Psychlos" (or Cyclos?) sounds like something out of a really bad SF novel turned into a really bad movie, but to the left, there is at least a tie-in with LoCB, since it starred John Travolta. From mam at theworld.com Fri Oct 31 13:59:04 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 16:59:04 -0500 Subject: Pronunciation Guide In-Reply-To: <00cd01c39ff2$3ad140c0$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, Daemian Spayde wrote: #My favorites are: # #Anything that Bob Dillon sang (what the HECK did his Music Teacher tell him to say?) Is that Marshal Dillon's great-great-grandson? Or do you mean Bob Zimmerman of Hibbing, Minn., known professionally as Bob Dylan? -- Mark A. Mandel 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and 00s folkie and filker From Randi128 at aol.com Fri Oct 31 14:00:02 2003 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:00:02 -0500 Subject: Pronunciation Guide Message-ID: <67C26BCB.318BB159.007F4CFD@aol.com> In a message dated 10/31/2003 1:23:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, warlord at dragon.com writes: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mark Tiller [mailto:mtiller at ntlworld.com] > > Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 1:23 PM > > To: 'Steven Brust'; Randi128 at aol.com; dragaera at dragaera.info > > Subject: RE: Pronunciation Guide > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Steven Brust [mailto:skzb at dreamcafe.com] > > Sent: 31 October 2003 15:37 > > To: Randi128 at aol.com; dragaera at dragaera.info > > Subject: Re: Pronunciation Guide > > > > > > > >Record. Record. It is a digital record of audio information. Nya. > > > > But Vinyl records are an Analogue recording, not digital. > Nya, Nyah Nya. > > > > Mark > > Is that your vinyl say on the matter ? > > W A hex upon your tongue foul punster. John D. Barbato OD From bio_phy at hotmail.com Fri Oct 31 14:01:27 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 16:01:27 -0600 Subject: All Hallow's Eve Message-ID: I'm taking Phy, Jr. (just 10) out. We make up hand-made Halloween thank-you cards which he colors and signs and gives to the people after he gets his candy. (This is the one time of the year that we see our neighbors face-to-face and I'm making the most of the opportunity to engender goodwill in advance.) ;) After that, the ritual movie of choice is obviously _Young Frankenstein_. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ "There are only three rules to writing a novel; unfortunately, no one knows what they are." --Somerset Maugham >Geeze, shouldn't you people be out getting ready for Tricking or Treating, >or at least Drinking and Treating? > >And here I thought I was the only one stuck at home until later one when >all my 'responsible' friends get off work~ > >Daemian >aka Katt _________________________________________________________________ Send instant messages to anyone on your contact list with MSN Messenger 6.0. Try it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com From Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 31 14:16:24 2003 From: Daemian_spayde at sbcglobal.net (Daemian Spayde) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 14:16:24 -0800 Subject: Pronunciation Guide References: Message-ID: <013a01c39ffc$9fb4b120$220110ac@gateway.2wire.net> yah yah, I'm sick and I'm tired and I'm grumpy that I'm not out eating candy and drinking scotch. sue me. Dylan, Dillun, Dillan, it all SOUNDS the same ~smirk Daemian aka Katt www.socal.ifgs.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark A Mandel To: Daemian Spayde Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 1:59 PM Subject: Re: Re: Pronunciation Guide On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, Daemian Spayde wrote: #My favorites are: # #Anything that Bob Dillon sang (what the HECK did his Music Teacher tell him to say?) Is that Marshal Dillon's great-great-grandson? Or do you mean Bob Zimmerman of Hibbing, Minn., known professionally as Bob Dylan? -- Mark A. Mandel 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and 00s folkie and filker From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Oct 31 14:27:19 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 14:27:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pronunciation Guide Message-ID: <200310312227.h9VMRJg10198@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Daemian wrote: > yah yah, I'm sick and I'm tired and I'm grumpy that I'm not out eating candy and drinking scotch. > > sue me. Dylan, Dillun, Dillan, it all SOUNDS the same ~smirk Daemian, you get at least 42 points for Cycling back to the original topic. Very nicely done.... ;) Chris (Trying to stay the hell away from the puns.) "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, son." - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Oct 31 16:21:30 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 19:21:30 -0500 Subject: Joining the Dzur Message-ID: <171E72CF.79B8460D.00048EA6@aol.com> David Silberstein writes: > "The Psychlos" (or Cyclos?) sounds like something out of a > really bad SF novel turned into a really bad movie, Or ESP-enabled garments. --KG From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Fri Oct 31 16:41:07 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 16:41:07 -0800 Subject: I have seen Dragaera and the Enclouding Message-ID: <9406qvk5ltt1aupth6glmmgko15cm0mj7k@4ax.com> Well, I live in San Diego. We came through the fires okay, although it was a /very/ close thing. Three blocks from here, actually. What was cool, however, was Tuesday. I finally got to see exactly what The Empire looks like, as we had an amazing low dense cloud cover, orangish red, which cast a strange tint on everything. It was really bizarre. From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Oct 31 16:47:30 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 31 Oct 2003 18:47:30 -0600 Subject: Pronunciation Guide In-Reply-To: <002d01c39fdb$f553a620$6c956d51@sweetdrewydscc> References: <002d01c39fdb$f553a620$6c956d51@sweetdrewydscc> Message-ID: "Mark Tiller" writes: > -----Original Message----- > From: Steven Brust [mailto:skzb at dreamcafe.com] > Sent: 31 October 2003 15:37 > To: Randi128 at aol.com; dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Pronunciation Guide > > > > >Record. Record. It is a digital record of audio information. Nya. > > But Vinyl records are an Analogue recording, not digital. Nya, Nyah Nya. Hence the need to say "digital record" or "analog record" -- the noun "record" itself is more general than that, and doesn't specify the medium. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From davids at kithrup.com Fri Oct 31 17:12:14 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:12:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: I have seen Dragaera and the Enclouding In-Reply-To: <9406qvk5ltt1aupth6glmmgko15cm0mj7k@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, lazarus wrote: >Well, I live in San Diego. We came through the fires okay, although >it was a /very/ close thing. Three blocks from here, actually. And it is good that you are well. >What was cool, however, was Tuesday. I finally got to see exactly >what The Empire looks like, as we had an amazing low dense cloud >cover, orangish red, which cast a strange tint on everything. It was >really bizarre. > Pictures would be cool. GIF, JPG (TIFF, PNG)? From nthuleen at students.wisc.edu Fri Oct 31 17:38:19 2003 From: nthuleen at students.wisc.edu (Nancy Thuleen) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 19:38:19 -0600 Subject: I have seen Dragaera and the Enclouding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 17:12 -0800 31.10.2003, David Silberstein wrote: > On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, lazarus wrote: > > >Well, I live in San Diego. We came through the fires okay, although > >it was a /very/ close thing. Three blocks from here, actually. > > And it is good that you are well. > > >What was cool, however, was Tuesday. I finally got to see exactly > >what The Empire looks like, as we had an amazing low dense cloud > >cover, orangish red, which cast a strange tint on everything. It was > >really bizarre. Yes, I thought of the Enclouding, too. I was in turmoil here in Wisconsin, because my parents were evacuated on Sunday from the house I grew up in (in Valley Center *on* Paradise Mountain). We didn't know until Wednesday afternoon if our house was okay. As it turns out, the fire came racing up our canyon, destroyed a tool shed 50 feet from our house at the edge of the back lawn, but the firefighters managed to completely save the house, not a charred mark anywhere. The hillsides and fruit trees and avocados and grapes and a little bit of the lawn are gone, but the house is perfect. Amazing. Several of our neighbors weren't so lucky, though. > Pictures would be cool. GIF, JPG (TIFF, PNG)? There are some awesome pictures (and some duds as well) at a local news page, http://www.kgtv.com/ -- click on 'slideshows' or 'viewer photos'. Many of them show the "enclouding" effect amazingly well. - Nancy. From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Fri Oct 31 17:37:47 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:37:47 -0800 Subject: I have seen Dragaera and the Enclouding In-Reply-To: References: <9406qvk5ltt1aupth6glmmgko15cm0mj7k@4ax.com> Message-ID: <7h36qv8qff4pf598v270657ikba49380nu@4ax.com> On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:12:14 -0800 (PST), you wrote: >On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, lazarus wrote: > >>Well, I live in San Diego. We came through the fires okay, although >>it was a /very/ close thing. Three blocks from here, actually. > >And it is good that you are well. > It's very weird. The fire actually nearly encircled us, got very close on three sides. >>What was cool, however, was Tuesday. I finally got to see exactly >>what The Empire looks like, as we had an amazing low dense cloud >>cover, orangish red, which cast a strange tint on everything. It was >>really bizarre. >> > >Pictures would be cool. GIF, JPG (TIFF, PNG)? I'll be checking the camera out tonight and tomorrow, and hopefully we have some good shots. I have some webspace, so I'll post a link to them, hopefully tomorrow. -- laz I am the Dread Pirate Roberts #23546. Ask me about franchise opportunities! From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Fri Oct 31 17:52:05 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:52:05 -0800 Subject: I have seen Dragaera and the Enclouding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 19:38:19 -0600, you wrote: >At 17:12 -0800 31.10.2003, David Silberstein wrote: > > > On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, lazarus wrote: > > > > >Well, I live in San Diego. We came through the fires okay, although > > >it was a /very/ close thing. Three blocks from here, actually. > > > > And it is good that you are well. > > > > >What was cool, however, was Tuesday. I finally got to see exactly > > >what The Empire looks like, as we had an amazing low dense cloud > > >cover, orangish red, which cast a strange tint on everything. It was > > >really bizarre. > >Yes, I thought of the Enclouding, too. I was in turmoil here in Wisconsin, >because my parents were evacuated on Sunday from the house I grew up in (in >Valley Center *on* Paradise Mountain). We didn't know until Wednesday >afternoon if our house was okay. As it turns out, the fire came racing up >our canyon, destroyed a tool shed 50 feet from our house at the edge of the >back lawn, but the firefighters managed to completely save the house, not a >charred mark anywhere. The hillsides and fruit trees and avocados and >grapes and a little bit of the lawn are gone, but the house is perfect. >Amazing. > >Several of our neighbors weren't so lucky, though. > Dear heavens, that's close. I imagine they had the brush cleared well away from the house beforehand, then. Too many houses neglected to keep an clear area, and the fire fighters weren't able to save them. > > Pictures would be cool. GIF, JPG (TIFF, PNG)? > >There are some awesome pictures (and some duds as well) at a local news >page, http://www.kgtv.com/ -- click on 'slideshows' or 'viewer photos'. >Many of them show the "enclouding" effect amazingly well. Check also the amazing time lapse video at that link. They showed it last night on the news. -- laz I am the Dread Pirate Roberts #23546. Ask me about franchise opportunities! From nthuleen at students.wisc.edu Fri Oct 31 18:11:29 2003 From: nthuleen at students.wisc.edu (Nancy Thuleen) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 20:11:29 -0600 Subject: I have seen Dragaera and the Enclouding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 17:52 -0800 31.10.2003, lazarus wrote: > Dear heavens, that's close. I imagine they had the brush cleared well > away from the house beforehand, then. Too many houses neglected to > keep an clear area, and the fire fighters weren't able to save them. Yes, indeed. Every winter/spring, my parents hold a 'burn party', cut as much brush around the immediate area as they feel necessary, and have friends over to help cut, carry, and watch it burn (controlled burn, obviously!). I'm sure that helped a little, but I also am unbelievably grateful to the firefighters, who turned on all of our lawn and grove sprinklers (they were still running 3 days later), moved our own garden hoses around (and we assume, used them), and even borrowed our shovels and axes (they were found in random areas near scorch marks). It's pretty clear that they made a stand at our house to prevent the fire from jumping the road and destroying the ca. 10 homes on that side of the canyon. That they were able to turn it away is almost beyond belief. The weird thing is that these firefighters are all anonymous, and we have no (direct) way to thank them. It makes me want to go and hug even the firefighters here in Wisconsin! :) - Nancy. From mtiller at ntlworld.com Sat Nov 1 03:32:18 2003 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 11:32:18 -0000 Subject: Pronunciation Guide In-Reply-To: <000601c39fef$3e829050$fe00000a@steve> Message-ID: <000201c3a06b$d1e42300$0101a8c0@sweetdrewydscc> -----Original Message----- From: Steven Brust [mailto:skzb at dreamcafe.com] Sent: 31 October 2003 20:41 To: Mark Tiller; Randi128 at aol.com; dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Pronunciation Guide > > >> >Record. Record. It is a digital record of audio information. Nya. >> >> But Vinyl records are an Analogue recording, not digital. Nya, Nyah > Nya. >> >The message to which I was responding (and which I quoted) was speaking of CDs. The original comment was "record, (or CD as the case is in the year 2003.)" which was distinguishing between Vinyl records and CD's Mark From mr1 at rcosta.com Sat Nov 1 11:47:27 2003 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 14:47:27 -0500 Subject: I have seen Dragaera and the Enclouding In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FA3C77F.1227.2489F4C3@localhost> On 31 Oct 2003 at 20:11, Nancy Thuleen wrote: > The weird thing is that these firefighters are all anonymous, and we have > no (direct) way to thank them. It makes me want to go and hug even the > firefighters here in Wisconsin! :) > > - Nancy. > Firefighters are strange creatures. They don't require "thanks" for what they consider "just a job". I am, of course, generalizing form one example, as per list tradition. On a list related tangent; I don't suppose Vlad gets much "thanks" when he - or his friend - does work. M ps I also suffer from the urge to hug firefighters ;-) mr1 at rcosta.com From feaelin at kemenel.org Sat Nov 1 12:15:16 2003 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Iain E. Davis) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 14:15:16 -0600 Subject: Psychos/Psychlos (was: Joining the Dzur) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.0.20031101141314.01aedcc8@kemenel.org> At 03:50 PM 10/31/2003, you wrote: >"The Psychlos" (or Cyclos?) sounds like something out of a really bad >SF novel turned into a really bad movie, but to the left, there is at >least a tie-in with LoCB, since it starred John Travolta. Hee. I consider the film one of those few times where the movie is much better than the book. :). Not saying much, but at least the movie wasn't as painful as the book (and MUCH shorter!) From lister at insaneninjahero.com Sat Nov 1 12:33:07 2003 From: lister at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 12:33:07 -0800 Subject: Psychos/Psychlos In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.0.20031101141314.01aedcc8@kemenel.org> References: <6.0.0.22.0.20031101141314.01aedcc8@kemenel.org> Message-ID: <3FA41883.7030702@insaneninjahero.com> Iain E. Davis wrote: > At 03:50 PM 10/31/2003, you wrote: > >> "The Psychlos" (or Cyclos?) sounds like something out of a really bad >> SF novel turned into a really bad movie, but to the left, there is at >> least a tie-in with LoCB, since it starred John Travolta. > > > Hee. I consider the film one of those few times where the movie is much > better than the book. :). Not saying much, but at least the movie > wasn't as painful as the book (and MUCH shorter!) > Well, that's L. Ron Hubbard for you ... Kisc From chaosasj at bellsouth.net Sat Nov 1 13:33:13 2003 From: chaosasj at bellsouth.net (Andrew Jones) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 16:33:13 -0500 Subject: Psychos/Psychlos In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.0.20031101141314.01aedcc8@kemenel.org> References: <6.0.0.22.0.20031101141314.01aedcc8@kemenel.org> Message-ID: <3FA42699.5040509@bellsouth.net> Iain E. Davis wrote: > At 03:50 PM 10/31/2003, you wrote: > >> "The Psychlos" (or Cyclos?) sounds like something out of a really bad >> SF novel turned into a really bad movie, but to the left, there is at >> least a tie-in with LoCB, since it starred John Travolta. > > > Hee. I consider the film one of those few times where the movie is much > better than the book. :). Not saying much, but at least the movie > wasn't as painful as the book (and MUCH shorter!) > > But it only covered one third of the book. From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Sat Nov 1 13:08:46 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 13:08:46 -0800 Subject: I have seen Dragaera and the Enclouding In-Reply-To: References: <9406qvk5ltt1aupth6glmmgko15cm0mj7k@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:12:14 -0800 (PST), you wrote: >Pictures would be cool. GIF, JPG (TIFF, PNG)? As promised. The first pic is about 0530 on Sunday morning, when the fire started hitting civilisation. Sorry it's so shaky, our digital camera isn't very forgiving. http://members.cox.net/lazarusblog/firehorizon.jpg And this is the best pic I could get of the cloud cover. The camera wasn't available during daylight, but this twilight shot is pretty cool, I think. -- laz I am the Dread Pirate Roberts #23546. Ask me about franchise opportunities! From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Sat Nov 1 14:19:28 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 14:19:28 -0800 Subject: I have seen Dragaera and the Enclouding In-Reply-To: References: <9406qvk5ltt1aupth6glmmgko15cm0mj7k@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 13:08:46 -0800, you wrote: >On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:12:14 -0800 (PST), you wrote: > >>Pictures would be cool. GIF, JPG (TIFF, PNG)? > >As promised. The first pic is about 0530 on Sunday morning, when the >fire started hitting civilisation. Sorry it's so shaky, our digital >camera isn't very forgiving. > >http://members.cox.net/lazarusblog/firehorizon.jpg > >And this is the best pic I could get of the cloud cover. The camera >wasn't available during daylight, but this twilight shot is pretty >cool, I think. Just realised I forgot the link: http://members.cox.net/lazarusblog/enclouding.jpg -- laz I am the Dread Pirate Roberts #23546. Ask me about franchise opportunities! From davids at kithrup.com Sat Nov 1 17:54:22 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 17:54:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb Message-ID: [Note: This contains spoilers for /Lord of Castle Black/, and perhaps /Five Hundred Years After/, if you haven't read that one either] Some stuff I noted: [LoCB, ch 45, pg 142] The orb began to pulse with a color somewhere between a pale green and a faint orange ... This occurs as Zerika is communicating with Sethra Lavode. My inner nerd said "Aha!". I think someone was watching das blinkinglights on die aethernetzisch cardt. The link & transmit transmit lights are almost always green and amber, and (obviously) blink furiously when data is being transmitted and received. This newest version partly reflects reports that the word 'blinkenlights' is (in 1999) undergoing something of a revival in usage, but applied to networking equipment. The transmit and receive lights on routers, activity lights on switches and hubs, and other network equipment often blink in visually pleasing and seemingly coordinated ways. http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/B/blinkenlights.html The other thing I noticed is more connected to speculation about whether or not an Orb connection could be forcibly removed by the Emperor: [LocB, ch 52, pg 225] "I have had no sensation of citizenship since my exile." This is Illista speaking, of course. Now, it is possible that this is implying that her Orb-link was deliberately severed - although, since we should consider all possibilities, it may well be that Elde Isle has Gold & Black Phoenix stone. Finally, there is this note on Orb connections: [LocB, ch 57, pg 299] "[...] though the Orb I have a mental link to some hundreds of thousands of people, with the number growing each minute. Can you imagine the difficulty of looking at each one, to see if it is he with whom I wish to converse?" I think Zerika's statement makes it as clear as it will ever be why Tortaalik did not blast Adron remotely, once he knew he was in rebellion. There may be broadcast routines in the Orb, and possibly ways to affect individuals who are in its presence (truth detection), but direct remote effects on a person not well known do not appear to be feasible - unless that person initiates a connection to the Emperor, perhaps. Of course, the Emperor can contact persons he does know well; e.g., he could summon his Captain of the Guards using the Orb. I find myself wondering exactly *how* the Orb protects the Emperor. Why *is* it necessary for people to defend her against Kana's forces? One possibility is that she is not well versed in using the Orb offensively. Another is that the Orb only *has* defensive capabilities, and would allow her to be captured if a more active defense was not mounted, and direct threats to her life were not being made. A third, and more subtle possibility, is that the Orb "defends the Emperor" by manipulating the minds of those who are connected to it so that they will be willing to give their lives (with the caveat that some can perhaps resist this manipulation, e.g., Adron). Hmm. From agrajag at dragaera.net Sun Nov 2 11:12:47 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 02 Nov 2003 14:12:47 -0500 Subject: Sethra's House In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1067800367.2021.61.camel@loiosh> On Tue, 2003-10-21 at 18:06, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > David Silberstein writes: > > > Elsewhere, it is stated that Sethra created the Lavodes, which > > certainly implies to *me* that they were recruited somehow. > > > > The quote from the booksearch is (FHYA, chapter 25): > > > > They seem to be of no one House, though many appear to be > > Dzurlords, and one or two are without doubt Dragonlords. > > And it makes sense that those two houses would predominate in a > fighting force. However, given what the Lavodes have been described > as I'd kinda expect more wizards to be involved. I seem to recall that what made the Lavodes special is that they are both fighters *and* wizards. From what we've seen, it seems more likely to have a Dzur or Dragon that has studied wizardry than it is to find an Athyra that has learned non-magical fighting. As for the House or non-House of the Lavodes, there is also the fact that Gyorg Lavode was mentioned specifically as being a Dzur. There is a scene in FHYA where Sethra is in one a room in the palace thinking of Gyorg and talking about him to one of our heros. From kknolte at ecity.net Sun Nov 2 05:53:47 2003 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 14:53:47 +0100 Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb References: Message-ID: <3FA50C67.1A5A@ecity.net> David Silberstein wrote: > > [Note: This contains spoilers for /Lord of Castle Black/, and > perhaps /Five Hundred Years After/, if you haven't read that one > either] > > This occurs as Zerika is communicating with Sethra Lavode. My inner > nerd said "Aha!". > > I think someone was watching das blinkinglights on die aethernetzisch > cardt. The link & transmit transmit lights are almost always green > and amber, and (obviously) blink furiously when data is being > transmitted and received. > > This newest version partly reflects reports that the > word 'blinkenlights' is (in 1999) undergoing something > of a revival in usage, but applied to networking equipment. > The transmit and receive lights on routers, activity lights > on switches and hubs, and other network equipment often blink > in visually pleasing and seemingly coordinated ways. > http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/B/blinkenlights.html When you were going thru the book, did you see anything about how the Orb is connected with the Cycle? More specifically, if the Orb can be new and improved, would that imply the Cycle can be as well? (This possibly being an explanation as to why Adron could be, ahem, good friends with a goddess and yet think the Cycle could turn to Dragon rather than Reborn Phoenix with a little pre-Imperial sorcery). Or is the Orb more something that can keep track of what the Cycle looks like now, but it can't actually affect it (in which case, what is the Cycle, and who created it?) From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Sun Nov 2 12:07:16 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 12:07:16 -0800 Subject: Sethra's House In-Reply-To: <1067800367.2021.61.camel@loiosh> References: <1067800367.2021.61.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: <20031102200716.GA26779@ofb.net> On Sun, Nov 02, 2003 at 02:12:47PM -0500, Jag wrote: > On Tue, 2003-10-21 at 18:06, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > > They seem to be of no one House, though many appear to be > > > Dzurlords, and one or two are without doubt Dragonlords. > > > > And it makes sense that those two houses would predominate in a > > fighting force. However, given what the Lavodes have been described > > as I'd kinda expect more wizards to be involved. > > I seem to recall that what made the Lavodes special is that they are > both fighters *and* wizards. From what we've seen, it seems more likely Yes. The same quote mentioned they're all holding little sticks like a wizard's wand/staff. > to have a Dzur or Dragon that has studied wizardry than it is to find an > Athyra that has learned non-magical fighting. And it makes sense than most of the Lavodes would be Dzur. We've been told most wizards are Dzur or Athyra. (Most of the ones we've SEEN have been elite Dragons, but that's because Vlad hangs out with Dragons.) Conversely, being a warrior-wizard seems like the natural culmination of being Dzur. -xx- Damien X-) From agrajag at dragaera.net Sun Nov 2 12:13:55 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 02 Nov 2003 15:13:55 -0500 Subject: Sethra's House, the Necromancer In-Reply-To: <102920031858.12524.64e1@comcast.net> References: <102920031858.12524.64e1@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1067804034.2021.65.camel@loiosh> On Wed, 2003-10-29 at 13:58, wyrmouroboros at comcast.net wrote: > While I concur with the implied '[of Dragons]', it might be significant to note that -nowhere- in that conversation is the tribe that is meant -actually-indicated-. Steve, perhaps wisely, leaves it as an exercise for the reader. > Even if Steven meant the Dzur Tribe, there is other evidence in _Yendi_. IIRC, while Sethra is talking about the Dragon Council choosing Norathar's parents as heir, she talks as if she were there and part of the Dragon Council. Not much is really mentioned about that Council, but I think it can be assumed that one would have to be a Dragon to be part of it. But to play the devil's advocate, Sethra could have special dispensation to be a special member of the Dragon Council due solely to her being Sethra. From agrajag at dragaera.net Sun Nov 2 13:11:35 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 02 Nov 2003 16:11:35 -0500 Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1067807494.14265.4.camel@loiosh> On Sat, 2003-11-01 at 20:54, David Silberstein wrote: > I find myself wondering exactly *how* the Orb protects the Emperor. > Why *is* it necessary for people to defend her against Kana's forces? > > One possibility is that she is not well versed in using the Orb > offensively. Another is that the Orb only *has* defensive > capabilities, and would allow her to be captured if a more active > defense was not mounted, and direct threats to her life were not being > made. A third, and more subtle possibility, is that the Orb "defends > the Emperor" by manipulating the minds of those who are connected to > it so that they will be willing to give their lives (with the caveat > that some can perhaps resist this manipulation, e.g., Adron). Hmm. Kana is a Dragon. Zerika is a Phoenix. One way for the Cycle to change >from Phoenix to Dragon is for a Dragon-led army to lead a rebellion against the Emperor. Thus, I do not think the Orb can completely defend a Phoenix Emperor(ess) against an attacking Dragon army as that might disrupt the Cycle. And even if the Orb protects the Emperor(ess) against death, I am sure the Emperor(ess) can be held captive, even with the Orb. At least is the Emperor(ess) is not trained in sorcery. Just because someone has a tool doesn't mean they can use it well. Along those lines, I'd be damn frightened of a wizard-Emperor(ess), especially one who has studied Zerika I's notes on it, or discusses such matters with Sethra. From levad105 at charter.net Sun Nov 2 14:41:48 2003 From: levad105 at charter.net (Mark Levad) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 14:41:48 -0800 Subject: New Member. Message-ID: <001301c3a192$80c076e0$6401a8c0@BIGJOE> Hello folks, I am new on the list and look forward to participating. I have been a fan of Mr. Brust for about 16 or 17 years. I have read all of his published novels except for the new one. I will get to it as soon as I finish Quicksilver by Neil Stephenson. Mark Levad From dd-b at dd-b.net Sun Nov 2 14:43:19 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 02 Nov 2003 16:43:19 -0600 Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb In-Reply-To: <1067807494.14265.4.camel@loiosh> References: <1067807494.14265.4.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: Jag writes: > On Sat, 2003-11-01 at 20:54, David Silberstein wrote: > > > I find myself wondering exactly *how* the Orb protects the Emperor. > > Why *is* it necessary for people to defend her against Kana's forces? > > > > One possibility is that she is not well versed in using the Orb > > offensively. Another is that the Orb only *has* defensive > > capabilities, and would allow her to be captured if a more active > > defense was not mounted, and direct threats to her life were not being > > made. A third, and more subtle possibility, is that the Orb "defends > > the Emperor" by manipulating the minds of those who are connected to > > it so that they will be willing to give their lives (with the caveat > > that some can perhaps resist this manipulation, e.g., Adron). Hmm. > > Kana is a Dragon. Zerika is a Phoenix. One way for the Cycle to change > from Phoenix to Dragon is for a Dragon-led army to lead a rebellion > against the Emperor. Thus, I do not think the Orb can completely defend > a Phoenix Emperor(ess) against an attacking Dragon army as that might > disrupt the Cycle. Perhaps it can do so *except* when it's time for the cycle to change? -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From bio_phy at hotmail.com Sun Nov 2 14:58:53 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 16:58:53 -0600 Subject: New Member. Message-ID: Given the size of that tome, that'll be awhile, methinks. ;) (Welcome, Mark.) johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ "There are only three rules to writing a novel; unfortunately, no one knows what they are." --Somerset Maugham >Hello folks, >I am new on the list and look forward to participating. >I have been a fan of Mr. Brust for about 16 or 17 years. I have read all of >his published novels except for the new one. >I will get to it as soon as I finish Quicksilver by Neil Stephenson. >Mark Levad _________________________________________________________________ Cheer a special someone with a fun Halloween eCard from American Greetings! Go to http://www.msn.americangreetings.com/index_msn.pd?source=msne134 From Gaertk at aol.com Sun Nov 2 15:40:15 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 18:40:15 -0500 Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb Message-ID: <4ABB4667.292F60FC.00048EA6@aol.com> Jag writes: > Kana is a Dragon. ?Zerika is a Phoenix. ?One way for the > Cycle to change from Phoenix to Dragon is for a Dragon-led > army to lead a rebellion against the Emperor. ?Thus, I do > not think the Orb can completely defend a Phoenix > Emperor(ess) against an attacking Dragon army as that might > disrupt the Cycle. No, that's how you *test* if the Cycle has changed (see FHYA Chapter 24 (page 367mmpb)). No one can change the Cycle themselves (see Vlad's comments when he sees the big wheel in _Taltos_). Since we're back on the topic of the Cycle and Orb, back when we were debating whether Adron ever was Emporer I was unable to find a quote I needed. Now, thanks to David's book search feature, I've finally found it: FHYA, Chapter 25 (page 386mmpb): : It had never occurred to [Sethra] [...] that, of the two : possibilities -- the Cycle still pointing to the Phoenix, : and Tortaalik guiding the Empire toward disaster -- both : could be true. While not as unambiguous as I'd like, it certainly strongly implies that the Cycle has not yet turned at this point, even though Adron is certain it has. --KG From toubib21 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 2 16:29:49 2003 From: toubib21 at yahoo.com (Toubib) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 16:29:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Uma Thurman's House In-Reply-To: <121.2710ae7c.2cd073d2@aol.com> Message-ID: <20031103002949.17448.qmail@web40105.mail.yahoo.com> > Ok. LL as a Dzur I agree with, however UT as a > Phoenix? > NOPE, She's Definitely a Dragon. For proof see Kill > Bill vol.1. > > The Bride's Declaration after the Showdown at The > Blue Lotus : "Those of you > who still have your lives may leave with > them......NO! Leave your missing > limbs. They Belong to me now!" > > ...Like I said, Definitely a Dragon. I'm thinking > Aliera e'Kieron. > Thoughts? Comments? > -ReVibe I'll agree that UT is a Dragon, but if you mean to vote her to play Aliera in a movie, she's waaay to tall. She's like 6'. ===== Doc www.toubib.us __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ From toubib21 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 2 16:41:00 2003 From: toubib21 at yahoo.com (Toubib) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 16:41:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sethra's House, the Necromancer In-Reply-To: <3F9FD86D.9050406@insaneninjahero.com> Message-ID: <20031103004100.78918.qmail@web40107.mail.yahoo.com> --- Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert wrote: further exposure to her has > brought him an > understanding that she really /is/ looking right > through (the physical) > him when they speak. > > Kisc If this is true, then it maybe that he is uncomfortable about the Necromancer seeing his true Dragaeran self. He hasn't had as much to do with her as with Aliera and Sethra, and I know I'd be a bit uncomfortable if someone could see me as more then I see myself. ===== Doc www.toubib.us __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Sun Nov 2 16:47:35 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 16:47:35 -0800 Subject: Uma Thurman's House In-Reply-To: <20031103002949.17448.qmail@web40105.mail.yahoo.com> References: <121.2710ae7c.2cd073d2@aol.com> <20031103002949.17448.qmail@web40105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20031103004735.GA26082@ofb.net> On Sun, Nov 02, 2003 at 04:29:49PM -0800, Toubib wrote: > > I'll agree that UT is a Dragon, but if you mean to > vote her to play Aliera in a movie, she's waaay to > tall. She's like 6'. Wouldn't that make her just about right? Aliera's short for a Dragaeran, not for a human; I think she's taller than Vlad. -xx- Damien X-) From toubib21 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 2 17:02:59 2003 From: toubib21 at yahoo.com (Toubib) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 17:02:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sethra's House, the Necromancer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031103010259.42357.qmail@web40103.mail.yahoo.com> --- Philip Hart wrote: [snip] Also we > have little evidence about the differences between > "tribe" and "House". > Maybe Sethra and Dolivar were best buds and hung out > so much she was > unofficially but effectively in the tribe... > This explanation also works well for her involvement in the House of the Dragon. If it turns out she is not a Dragon. And it would make sense that she is close to them. She does need help fighting against the Jenoine and the Dzur and Dragons are good at what they do, and there are plenty of them. I'd have to say the best fighters would be the Lyorn, but there are few warriors of the House. ===== Doc www.toubib.us __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ From ReVibe68 at aol.com Sun Nov 2 17:10:39 2003 From: ReVibe68 at aol.com (ReVibe68 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 20:10:39 EST Subject: Uma Thurman's House Message-ID: <140.1bad50ca.2cd7050f@aol.com> In a message dated 11/2/03 7:30:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, toubib21 at yahoo.com writes: > > Ok. LL as a Dzur I agree with, however UT as a > > Phoenix? > > NOPE, She's Definitely a Dragon. For proof see Kill > > Bill vol.1. > > > > The Bride's Declaration after the Showdown at The > > Blue Lotus : "Those of you > > who still have your lives may leave with > > them......NO! Leave your missing > > limbs. They Belong to me now!" > > > > ...Like I said, Definitely a Dragon. I'm thinking > > Aliera e'Kieron. > > Thoughts? Comments? > > -ReVibe > > > I'll agree that UT is a Dragon, but if you mean to > vote her to play Aliera in a movie, she's waaay to > tall. She's like 6'. > > > ===== > Elijah Wood, who plays Frodo in LoTR, is NOT 3"-4". But thanks to the magic of SFX said actor looks like he IS. To Wit: IF they could do it for Elijah then I submit to you that they could do it for Uma. For the record though, I didn't mean that Uma could play Aliera; However upon re-consideration, I'd support such an effort without reservation. Signature: Politicians and Diapers have one thing in common. They should be changed regularly and for The Same Reason!!. Truth Is Truth. From toubib21 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 2 17:11:31 2003 From: toubib21 at yahoo.com (Toubib) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 17:11:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Joining the Dzur In-Reply-To: <000801c39e89$e45771b0$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> Message-ID: <20031103011131.19490.qmail@web40106.mail.yahoo.com> --- bonham15 wrote: > > annnnd this is a magical world. it is entirely > possible that if you are in > the dzur house while not being a dzur, and then > breed with a dzur, that the > genes of the house become dominant and wipe out the > halfbreed.. only the > stev... err only the shadow knows.. > > andy I'd have to disagree with this. If that was so, then when Mellar fought his way into the Dzur, his genes should have changed to a full Dzur. Also, no where does it say that Dragaeran's are proficient enough in genetic manipulation to change genes. If they could, there would never be half-breeds. And Aliera says that if you mix Houses long enough they get their own distinct gene type, which seems to me to take more then a single generation. ===== Doc www.toubib.us __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ From greyw01f at hotmail.com Sun Nov 2 17:06:52 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 01:06:52 +0000 Subject: Sethra's House Message-ID: I think I can resolve this in one sentence. As to why the Lavodes seem to be mostly Dzur and Dragon, well, who else would fight Gods? ----Original Message Follows---- From: Damien Sullivan To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Sethra's House Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 12:07:16 -0800 On Sun, Nov 02, 2003 at 02:12:47PM -0500, Jag wrote: > On Tue, 2003-10-21 at 18:06, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > > > They seem to be of no one House, though many appear to be > > > Dzurlords, and one or two are without doubt Dragonlords. > > > > And it makes sense that those two houses would predominate in a > > fighting force. However, given what the Lavodes have been described > > as I'd kinda expect more wizards to be involved. > > I seem to recall that what made the Lavodes special is that they are > both fighters *and* wizards. From what we've seen, it seems more likely Yes. The same quote mentioned they're all holding little sticks like a wizard's wand/staff. > to have a Dzur or Dragon that has studied wizardry than it is to find an > Athyra that has learned non-magical fighting. And it makes sense than most of the Lavodes would be Dzur. We've been told most wizards are Dzur or Athyra. (Most of the ones we've SEEN have been elite Dragons, but that's because Vlad hangs out with Dragons.) Conversely, being a warrior-wizard seems like the natural culmination of being Dzur. -xx- Damien X-) _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca From ReVibe68 at aol.com Sun Nov 2 17:21:53 2003 From: ReVibe68 at aol.com (ReVibe68 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 20:21:53 EST Subject: Sethra's House Message-ID: <9b.4001d6ce.2cd707b1@aol.com> In a message dated 11/2/03 8:19:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, greyw01f at hotmail.com writes: > As to why the Lavodes seem to be mostly Dzur and Dragon, well, who else > would fight Gods? > > ..Uhm,,,,,,,,Who Else??........Why Vlad of course. Especially if you piss him off enough....... :D Politicians and Diapers have one thing in common. They should be changed regularly and for The Same Reason!!. Truth Is Truth. From toubib21 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 2 17:49:37 2003 From: toubib21 at yahoo.com (Toubib) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 17:49:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb In-Reply-To: <3FA50C67.1A5A@ecity.net> Message-ID: <20031103014937.66595.qmail@web40110.mail.yahoo.com> More specifically, > if the Orb can be > new and improved, would that imply the Cycle can be > as well? (This > possibly being an explanation as to why Adron could > be, ahem, good > friends with a goddess and yet think the Cycle could > turn to Dragon > rather than Reborn Phoenix with a little > pre-Imperial sorcery). Or is > the Orb more something that can keep track of what > the Cycle looks like > now, but it can't actually affect it (in which case, > what is the Cycle, > and who created it?) > A question and a statement. Question- Where does it say the Orb was improved while it was in the Path of the Dead? Where am I missing this little kernel of knowledge? Statement-I think Adron was just a little crazy/power hungry. How could he lost count of the Cycle, especially when Aliera told him it was the reign of a decadent Phoenix and that only happens at the end of the 17th Cycle. ===== Doc www.toubib.us __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ From toubib21 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 2 18:11:17 2003 From: toubib21 at yahoo.com (Toubib) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 18:11:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb In-Reply-To: <1067807494.14265.4.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: <20031103021117.34286.qmail@web40112.mail.yahoo.com> > And even if the Orb protects the Emperor(ess) > against death, I am sure > the Emperor(ess) can be held captive, even with the > Orb. At least is > the Emperor(ess) is not trained in sorcery. Just > because someone has a > tool doesn't mean they can use it well. Along those > lines, I'd be damn > frightened of a wizard-Emperor(ess), especially one > who has studied > Zerika I's notes on it, or discusses such matters > with Sethra. > I get the impression that it's impossible to be the Emperor(ess) and not know how to use the Orb. The Orb is more then just the conduit to use Chaos, it's the depository of almost all experiences had by previous Emperors. An example of this is in Phoenix when Zerika figured out Aibynn was from Greenare by consulting the Orb and based memories of his clothes by previous rulers. Later in the same book, she turns off the record feature of the Orb, to have a private conversation with Vlad. So I would think that when the Heir takes possession of the Orb it tells then all their is to know, based on the previous Emperors experiences, to us it. ===== Doc www.toubib.us __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ From ReVibe68 at aol.com Sun Nov 2 18:26:17 2003 From: ReVibe68 at aol.com (ReVibe68 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 21:26:17 EST Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb Message-ID: <21.36bde77c.2cd716c9@aol.com> In a message dated 11/2/03 8:49:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, toubib21 at yahoo.com writes: > Question- Where does it say the Orb was improved while > it was in the Path of the Dead? Where am I missing > this little kernel of knowledge? > > Sorcery was limited pre-interregnum. Teleportation was very hardso as not to be practical..Witness that in PG and FHYA Khavvren and Crew travel the Empire on horseback. Revivication was not possible. either. My guess would be that the Orb was somehow enhanced Post-Interregnum because where there used to be ONE sea of Chaos now there are Two. Which would mean one EXTRA source of Amorphia for the Orb to draw on. Actually this was said in one of the books, but for the life of me I cant remember which one Maybe Phoenix or one of the Khavvren Romances. From agrajag at dragaera.net Sun Nov 2 18:37:47 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 02 Nov 2003 21:37:47 -0500 Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb In-Reply-To: <21.36bde77c.2cd716c9@aol.com> References: <21.36bde77c.2cd716c9@aol.com> Message-ID: <1067827067.2019.2.camel@loiosh> On Sun, 2003-11-02 at 21:26, ReVibe68 at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/2/03 8:49:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, > toubib21 at yahoo.com writes: > > > > Question- Where does it say the Orb was improved while > > it was in the Path of the Dead? Where am I missing > > this little kernel of knowledge? > > > > > Sorcery was limited pre-interregnum. Teleportation was very hardso as not to > be practical..Witness that in PG and FHYA Khavvren and Crew travel the Empire > on horseback. Revivication was not possible. either. My guess would be that > the Orb was somehow enhanced Post-Interregnum because where there used to be ONE > sea of Chaos now there are Two. Which would mean one EXTRA source of Amorphia > for the Orb to draw on. Actually this was said in one of the books, but for > the life of me I cant remember which one > Maybe Phoenix or one of the Khavvren Romances. It was definately mentioned in at least one of the Vlad novels that sorcery is a lot more powerful and easier to use post-Interregnum. As for when it changed, in PotD, one of the scenes with the Gods involves them talking about altering the Orb themselves before it is reclaimed. There may also be conversations among the Gods about it in LoCB. From agrajag at dragaera.net Sun Nov 2 18:43:18 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 02 Nov 2003 21:43:18 -0500 Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb In-Reply-To: <20031103021117.34286.qmail@web40112.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20031103021117.34286.qmail@web40112.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1067827398.2019.8.camel@loiosh> On Sun, 2003-11-02 at 21:11, Toubib wrote: > I get the impression that it's impossible to be the > Emperor(ess) and not know how to use the Orb. The Orb > is more then just the conduit to use Chaos, it's the > depository of almost all experiences had by previous > Emperors. An example of this is in Phoenix when Zerika > figured out Aibynn was from Greenare by consulting the > Orb and based memories of his clothes by previous > rulers. Later in the same book, she turns off the > record feature of the Orb, to have a private > conversation with Vlad. So I would think that when the > Heir takes possession of the Orb it tells then all > their is to know, based on the previous Emperors > experiences, to us it. I'm inclined to disagree with that. If that were the case, the new Emperor(ess) would be flooded with those old memories as soon as they gained the Orb, which would probablly cause the Empire to be completely non-functional for at least the following month. And that really wouldn't work well when the Orb is peacefully handed over to deal with problems (ie, end of the 17th Athyra reign, and end of the First Phoenix Reign of the Second Great Cycle). There also happens to be a much nicer solution for why Zerika is so capable with the Orb. First off, in PotD, she spent a lot of time studying under Sethra. I'm sure at least some of that was on how to use the Orb. Second, she is friends with Sethra, who she can just consult on it. However, I'm sure there's a way for Emperor(esse)s who aren't buddy-buddy with Sethra. They probablly know at least some of the Orb's abilities and can just gently probe the Orb with their minds, attempting to do what they want until they get the hang of it. And once they get the memory recall thing down, they can find a lot more of what's possible. From toubib21 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 2 18:58:16 2003 From: toubib21 at yahoo.com (Toubib) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 18:58:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Uma Thurman's House In-Reply-To: <20031103004735.GA26082@ofb.net> Message-ID: <20031103025816.70821.qmail@web40109.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Sullivan wrote: > > Wouldn't that make her just about right? Aliera's > short for a Dragaeran, not > for a human; I think she's taller than Vlad. > > -xx- Damien X-) Yea, you're right. ===== Doc www.toubib.us __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ From toubib21 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 2 19:03:39 2003 From: toubib21 at yahoo.com (Toubib) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 19:03:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sethra's House In-Reply-To: <9b.4001d6ce.2cd707b1@aol.com> Message-ID: <20031103030339.79083.qmail@web40110.mail.yahoo.com> > ..Uhm,,,,,,,,Who Else??........Why Vlad of course. > Especially if you piss > him off enough....... :D > That could be attributed to his being a Dragon reincarnated. Not to mention Vlad is a tool of the Gods. He doesn't have much choise usually. It would probobly be more accurate to say who else would fight those more powerful then gods. ===== Doc www.toubib.us __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ From toubib21 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 2 19:38:04 2003 From: toubib21 at yahoo.com (Toubib) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 19:38:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb In-Reply-To: <1067827067.2019.2.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: <20031103033804.29174.qmail@web40111.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jag wrote: > On Sun, 2003-11-02 at 21:26, ReVibe68 at aol.com wrote: > > Sorcery was limited pre-interregnum. Teleportation > was very hardso as not to > > be practical..Witness that in PG and FHYA Khavvren > and Crew travel the Empire > > on horseback. Revivication was not possible. > either. My guess would be that > > the Orb was somehow enhanced Post-Interregnum > because where there used to be ONE > > sea of Chaos now there are Two. Which would mean > one EXTRA source of Amorphia > > for the Orb to draw on. Actually this was said in > one of the books, but for > > the life of me I cant remember which one > > Maybe Phoenix or one of the Khavvren Romances. > > It was definately mentioned in at least one of the > Vlad novels that > sorcery is a lot more powerful and easier to use > post-Interregnum. As > for when it changed, in PotD, one of the scenes with > the Gods involves > them talking about altering the Orb themselves > before it is reclaimed. > There may also be conversations among the Gods about > it in LoCB. > Two words on this, revivification is not strictly Sorcery, but is a mix of sorcery and elder sorcery. And apparently you don't need a link to the Orb to preform it, since I don't think the Necromancer has a link to the Orb(although you could have joined one of the House after her arrival). But she was still quite powerful with out a link. And teleportation worked pre-Interregnum, it was just more difficult. Sethra did teleport Khavreen and company as well as Aliera and Mario. Personally I think it's more likely that wizards during the Interregnum got stronger from the strain of preforming the most minimal task during the Interregnum. Not to mention that one of the books mentions that wizards are able to do more and more everyday. I want to say either Zerika or Cawti said that. But you are correct that in POTD the Lords of Judgment say they have an opportunity, although it's not clear if they took it. Perhaps the increase is a combination of both better sorcerers and a altered Orb. I don't remember it being said that the Orb draws power from the Lesser Sea of Chaos. But in Issola it's said that the Orb would know if the Jenoine were taking power from the Great Sea of Chaos due to the link between the Orb and the Great Sea, but that the Orb wouldn't know about the drainage on the Lesser Sea. Which to me points to there being no link between the two, thus no extra power from the Lesser Sea. ===== Doc www.toubib.us __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ From agrajag at dragaera.net Sun Nov 2 19:53:17 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 02 Nov 2003 22:53:17 -0500 Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb In-Reply-To: <20031103033804.29174.qmail@web40111.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20031103033804.29174.qmail@web40111.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1067831597.2019.18.camel@loiosh> On Sun, 2003-11-02 at 22:38, Toubib wrote: > > Two words on this, revivification is not strictly > Sorcery, but is a mix of sorcery and elder sorcery. Don't think so. Elder sorcery is outlawed, and revivification is somewhat common. It wouldn't be an easily purchased service on the street if it involved elder sorcery. > And apparently you don't need a link to the Orb to > preform it, since I don't think the Necromancer has a > link to the Orb(although you could have joined one of > the House after her arrival). The Necromancer is special. She is not a dragaeran, she has her own sources of power and doesn't need to use the Orb. I'm sure that when Aliera does revivification, she has to use the Orb. > But she was still quite > powerful with out a link. And teleportation worked > pre-Interregnum, it was just more difficult. Sethra > did teleport Khavreen and company as well as Aliera > and Mario. When Sethra performed a teleport in order to save the Orb, that was the *first* succesfull teleportation. It was rumored to have been done before then, but never proven. It took all that Sethra had (including drawing on the power of Dzur Mountain) to do it. Now Vlad, who admits he is a poor sorceror, can perform teleports. > Personally I think it's more likely that > wizards during the Interregnum got stronger from the > strain of preforming the most minimal task during the > Interregnum. I think I read that somewhere. I used to think the same, then I thought about it more, and read PotD. Only those that had branched into elder sorcery were able to do anything during the Interregnum, and there aren't many who had done that. Those few may have grown stronger due to their forced reliance on elder sorcery, but those who didn't switch to elder, had nothing. They didn't even try, they just did nothing. > > I don't remember it being said that the Orb draws > power from the Lesser Sea of Chaos. You mean Greater? > But in Issola it's > said that the Orb would know if the Jenoine were > taking power from the Great Sea of Chaos due to the > link between the Orb and the Great Sea, but that the > Orb wouldn't know about the drainage on the Lesser > Sea. Which to me points to there being no link between > the two, thus no extra power from the Lesser Sea. That's right, its implied in _Issola_ that there is no link between the Orb and the Lesser Sea of Chaos. Although I do wonder if there might be a linke between [ISSOLA Spoiler]GodSlayer and the Lesser Sea of Chaos. We don't know enough about GS to know if it would be needed, but it would be interesting if they were linked, like the Orb and the Greater Sea are linked and Pathfinder and Dzur Mountain are linked. From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net Sun Nov 2 20:02:15 2003 From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 22:02:15 -0600 Subject: New Member. References: <001301c3a192$80c076e0$6401a8c0@BIGJOE> Message-ID: <3FA5D347.5010509@comcast.net> Hi, Mark! Welcome to our ins--I mean, merry band! Stephenson rocks, too. I'm waiting for Quicksilver till hubby finishes. Cheers! Mia From davids at kithrup.com Sun Nov 2 20:20:40 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 20:20:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb In-Reply-To: <20031103033804.29174.qmail@web40111.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Nov 2003, Toubib wrote: >Personally I think it's more likely that wizards during the >Interregnum got stronger from the strain of preforming the most >minimal task during the Interregnum. [...] >But you are correct that in POTD the Lords of Judgment say they have >an opportunity, although it's not clear if they took it. Perhaps the >increase is a combination of both better sorcerers and a altered Orb. I believe that this last is what certain scenes in LoCB (ch 46, pp 155-156, & ch 47, 159-161) were meant to portray. Consider: Oidwa, a sorceress who had not used any magical arts whatsoever since the Disaster, drew on the power of the Orb once it had returned, and used it, with no problems. On the other hand, Tazendra, who had been relying on Elder Sorcery all that time, tried to make a fire, and caused a combustion which was a bit more rapid than she had intended. For that matter, she even went so far as to state definitively that the Orb had changed, and, well, since she had been practicing magic of one sort or another for the past 800 years (or so), I should think that she would have the experience on which to base that assertion. And to hammer the point home: Grassfog, who knew some healing sorcery before the Interregnum, agrees with her entirely. (LoCB, ch. 47, pp 161-162) From davids at kithrup.com Sun Nov 2 20:34:02 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 20:34:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb In-Reply-To: <1067831597.2019.18.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: On 2 Nov 2003, Jag wrote: >On Sun, 2003-11-02 at 22:38, Toubib wrote: > >> >> Two words on this, revivification is not strictly >> Sorcery, but is a mix of sorcery and elder sorcery. > >Don't think so. Elder sorcery is outlawed, and revivification is >somewhat common. It wouldn't be an easily purchased service on the >street if it involved elder sorcery. > Aliera, explaining sorcery & elder sorcery: "Sorcery is the art of learning manipulate necrophia, as elder sorcery is the art of learning to manipulate amorphia." (/Issola/, ch 10). Aliera, explaining necromancy: "The art of using necrophia, and amorphia, to control the energy levels of different life-states." (/Issola/, ch 10). Presumably, legal revivification (and other legal necromancy) is done only by using necrophia to control the energy levels of different life-states. But it is presumably also possible to use direct amorphia-manipulation to do so. I suspect that just as Daymar is personally able to use psionics to do things directly without using the Orb, perhaps the Necromancer is able to directly control the energy levels of different life-states, using only her mind and will. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Nov 2 20:38:04 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 20:38:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Setting aside any questions about Paarfian axe-grinding on what is no doubt a popular subject of speculation in his day, it's nice that these chunks of information don't come across as if aimed at a readership in another universe. Wild speculation - Oidwa's spell might have been essentially a rote program, with the energy output specified. This could be a safety feature, avoiding the possibility of brain damage. A more sophisticated user such as Tazendra might rely on "feel" to calibrate the energy summoned. On Sun, 2 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > >increase is a combination of both better sorcerers and a altered Orb. > > I believe that this last is what certain scenes in LoCB (ch 46, pp > 155-156, & ch 47, 159-161) were meant to portray. > > Consider: Oidwa, a sorceress who had not used any magical arts > whatsoever since the Disaster, drew on the power of the Orb once it > had returned, and used it, with no problems. > > On the other hand, Tazendra, who had been relying on Elder Sorcery all > that time, tried to make a fire, and caused a combustion which was a > bit more rapid than she had intended. For that matter, she even went > so far as to state definitively that the Orb had changed, and, well, > since she had been practicing magic of one sort or another for the > past 800 years (or so), I should think that she would have the > experience on which to base that assertion. > > And to hammer the point home: Grassfog, who knew some healing sorcery > before the Interregnum, agrees with her entirely. (LoCB, ch. 47, pp > 161-162) > > From toubib21 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 2 20:38:11 2003 From: toubib21 at yahoo.com (Toubib) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 20:38:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb In-Reply-To: <1067831597.2019.18.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: <20031103043811.39990.qmail@web40111.mail.yahoo.com> > Don't think so. Elder sorcery is outlawed, and > revivification is > somewhat common. It wouldn't be an easily purchased > service on the > street if it involved elder sorcery. > > And apparently you don't need a link to the Orb to > > preform it, since I don't think the Necromancer > has a > > link to the Orb(although you could have joined one > of > > the House after her arrival). > > The Necromancer is special. She is not a dragaeran, > she has her own > sources of power and doesn't need to use the Orb. > I'm sure that when > Aliera does revivification, she has to use the Orb. > > But she was still quite > > powerful with out a link. And teleportation worked > > pre-Interregnum, it was just more difficult. > Sethra > > did teleport Khavreen and company as well as > Aliera > > and Mario. > > When Sethra performed a teleport in order to save > the Orb, that was the > *first* succesfull teleportation. It was rumored to > have been done > before then, but never proven. It took all that > Sethra had (including > drawing on the power of Dzur Mountain) to do it. > Now Vlad, who admits > he is a poor sorceror, can perform teleports. > > Personally I think it's more likely that > > wizards during the Interregnum got stronger from > the > > strain of preforming the most minimal task during > the > > Interregnum. > > I think I read that somewhere. I used to think the > same, then I thought > about it more, and read PotD. Only those that had > branched into elder > sorcery were able to do anything during the > Interregnum, and there > aren't many who had done that. Those few may have > grown stronger due to > their forced reliance on elder sorcery, but those > who didn't switch to > elder, had nothing. They didn't even try, they just > did nothing. > > > > > I don't remember it being said that the Orb draws > > power from the Lesser Sea of Chaos. > > You mean Greater? > > > But in Issola it's > > said that the Orb would know if the Jenoine were > > taking power from the Great Sea of Chaos due to > the > > link between the Orb and the Great Sea, but that > the > > Orb wouldn't know about the drainage on the Lesser > > Sea. Which to me points to there being no link > between > > the two, thus no extra power from the Lesser Sea. > > That's right, its implied in _Issola_ that there is > no link between the > Orb and the Lesser Sea of Chaos. Although I do > wonder if there might be > a linke between [ISSOLA Spoiler]GodSlayer and the > Lesser Sea of Chaos. > We don't know enough about GS to know if it would be > needed, but it > would be interesting if they were linked, like the > Orb and the Greater > Sea are linked and Pathfinder and Dzur Mountain are > linked. > In Issola most of magic is defined you can find the definitions here. But Sorcery is the art of manipulating necrophia and Elder Sorcery is the art of manipulating amorphia. To be able to preform Necromancy you have to manipulate both. I think that proves the point that I'm making. Just cause someone had not done it successfully, doens't mean that it could not be done. And since it was done before the Lords of Judgment got their hands on the Orb says that it would have only been a matter of time. Besides, it's always hardest the first time you do something, and gets easier as more people know the basics of how to do it right. Also, the use of power from Dzur Mountain could have been used to re-enforce Sethra's mental power to correspond with the Orb and not to power the Orb. No, I meant Lesser. The Orb draws its power from the Greater Sea of Chaos not the Lesser. Why would there be a link between Godslayer and the Lesser Sea? Other then the fact that Godslayer was created/re-create near the Lesser Sea I don't recall anything happening that would forge a link. And I think you mean the link between Iceflame and Dzur Mountain, not Pathfinder. Doc www.toubib.us --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Nov 2 20:42:58 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 20:42:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > Aliera, explaining sorcery & elder sorcery: "Sorcery is the art of snip > > Aliera, explaining necromancy: "The art of using necrophia, and snip > Presumably, legal revivification (and other legal necromancy) is > done only by using necrophia to control the energy levels of > different life-states. > > But it is presumably also possible to use direct amorphia-manipulation > to do so. > > I suspect that just as Daymar is personally able to use psionics to do > things directly without using the Orb, perhaps the Necromancer is able > to directly control the energy levels of different life-states, using > only her mind and will. This is an excellent summary of our Vlad-hobbled scholarship on the magic in question. I would have phrased the last time differently - the Necromancer may [must] have access to magical technology that Aliera doesn't know about. From toubib21 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 2 20:45:33 2003 From: toubib21 at yahoo.com (Toubib) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 20:45:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031103044533.40695.qmail@web40111.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Silberstein wrote: > On Sun, 2 Nov 2003, Toubib wrote: > > > >Personally I think it's more likely that wizards > during the > >Interregnum got stronger from the strain of > preforming the most > >minimal task during the Interregnum. > > [...] > > >But you are correct that in POTD the Lords of > Judgment say they have > >an opportunity, although it's not clear if they > took it. Perhaps the > >increase is a combination of both better sorcerers > and a altered Orb. > > I believe that this last is what certain scenes in > LoCB (ch 46, pp > 155-156, & ch 47, 159-161) were meant to portray. > > Consider: Oidwa, a sorceress who had not used any > magical arts > whatsoever since the Disaster, drew on the power of > the Orb once it > had returned, and used it, with no problems. > > On the other hand, Tazendra, who had been relying on > Elder Sorcery all > that time, tried to make a fire, and caused a > combustion which was a > bit more rapid than she had intended. For that > matter, she even went > so far as to state definitively that the Orb had > changed, and, well, > since she had been practicing magic of one sort or > another for the > past 800 years (or so), I should think that she > would have the > experience on which to base that assertion. > > And to hammer the point home: Grassfog, who knew > some healing sorcery > before the Interregnum, agrees with her entirely. > (LoCB, ch. 47, pp > 161-162) > Yea, I was afraid of something like that. I forgot to qualify my statements with the facts that I had not read LoCB yet, and thus did not know of those statements. But I stand corrected that the Lords of Judgment did tweak out the Orb. ===== Doc www.toubib.us __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ From davids at kithrup.com Mon Nov 3 00:26:16 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 00:26:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: A thought concerning Skinter's future... Message-ID: So I wondered: what will happen to K?na, also called Skinter, after he loses? We know he's going to, of course. Well, the most likely scenario is that he will lose his head. But I had the following notion: Consider that the driving force behind his strategy, the brains of the outfit, is really his cousin. Consider also that perhaps the illegality of his rebellion situation is a bit uncertain. Is he in fact being treasonous? There isn't an Empire yet for him to be treasonous *to*. And What if he eventually surrenders? What if the Empress decides to show him clemency? What happens next? Well, it occurs to me that his House might be sufficiently annoyed with him that they might well eject him from it. And either the Empire or the House might wish to punish him for his overreaching arrogance by somehow cursing him (using sorcery or elder sorcery or necromancy, or whatever), by causing him to become a complete non-entity, well-nigh invisible. And he might then change his name, and join the Jhereg, and, suffused with bitterness, vow never to be the one in charge. As I type this up, it seems more and more farfetched. But I still think it an amusing notion. From mtiller at ntlworld.com Mon Nov 3 05:34:00 2003 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 13:34:00 -0000 Subject: Magical Technology? WAS Some thoughts on the Orb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c3a20f$2b505540$0101a8c0@sweetdrewydscc> -----Original Message----- From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU] Sent: 03 November 2003 04:43 To: Dragaera List Subject: Re: Some thoughts on the Orb > I would have phrased the last time differently - the Necromancer may [must] have access to magical technology that Aliera doesn't know about. Magical Technology? Is that a contradiction in terms? If you understand how it works, is it magic? The dragaerans call it sorcery (or Sourcery for all you discworld fans) and not magic, I think to them it is just a technology. Mark From casey at the-bat.net Mon Nov 3 05:56:27 2003 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 08:56:27 -0500 Subject: A thought concerning Skinter's future... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David Silberstein wrote: > As I type this up, it seems more and more farfetched. > But I still think it an amusing notion. An amusing notion indeed. I think the next bit of evidence to evaluate is the ages of the individual(s) in question. From calianng_graves at yahoo.com Mon Nov 3 08:41:13 2003 From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 08:41:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thoughts on the Orb Message-ID: <20031103164113.86274.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> David Silberstein wrote: [Note: This contains spoilers for /Lord of Castle Black/, and perhaps /Five Hundred Years After/, if you haven't read that one either] Some stuff I noted: [LoCB, ch 45, pg 142] The orb began to pulse with a color somewhere between a pale green and a faint orange ... This occurs as Zerika is communicating with Sethra Lavode. My inner nerd said "Aha!". I think someone was watching das blinkinglights on die aethernetzisch cardt. The link & transmit transmit lights are almost always green and amber, and (obviously) blink furiously when data is being transmitted and received. ****** This would be feasable, except that Steve is, indeed, color-blind and cannot tell the difference between the green lights and amber lights on the modem. :) Me (from another room): Is Cox down? We are having net difficulties. Steve: Well, lights are blinking on the modem. You need to check it. I think there is one that is blinking that is supposed to be solid. The Linux box is blinking like normal....I think. Peace, Caliann *Owned and Operated by the Grand Poohbah Cheese of the Universe.* "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears From casey at the-bat.net Mon Nov 3 09:00:08 2003 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 12:00:08 -0500 Subject: Thoughts on the Orb In-Reply-To: <20031103164113.86274.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Caliann the Elf writ: > ****** This would be feasable, except that Steve is, indeed, > color-blind and cannot tell the difference between the green > lights and amber lights on the modem. :) Well, that explains the oddly poetic description of 'a color somewhere between a pale green and a faint orange', i.e. yellow. :) Casey From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Nov 3 13:01:11 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 13:01:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: A thought concerning Skinter's future... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kragar is smart - consider how often Vlad takes credit for his ideas. It seems much more likely to me that Skinter's cousin asks for a sex-change as part of the exile package, ... By the way, do we know that Kragar is a citizen? What's his title in the Jhereg? Hmm, guess he must be a citizen, as he contacts Vlad psionically, presumably using sorcery to do so. Has he ever been observed to teleport? On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > So I wondered: what will happen to K?na, also called Skinter, after he > loses? We know he's going to, of course. > > Well, the most likely scenario is that he will lose his head. But I > had the following notion: > > Consider that the driving force behind his strategy, the brains of the > outfit, is really his cousin. > > Consider also that perhaps the illegality of his rebellion situation > is a bit uncertain. Is he in fact being treasonous? There isn't an > Empire yet for him to be treasonous *to*. > > And What if he eventually surrenders? What if the Empress decides to > show him clemency? What happens next? > > Well, it occurs to me that his House might be sufficiently annoyed > with him that they might well eject him from it. And either the > Empire or the House might wish to punish him for his overreaching > arrogance by somehow cursing him (using sorcery or elder sorcery or > necromancy, or whatever), by causing him to become a complete > non-entity, well-nigh invisible. > > And he might then change his name, and join the Jhereg, and, suffused > with bitterness, vow never to be the one in charge. > > As I type this up, it seems more and more farfetched. > But I still think it an amusing notion. > > From bio_phy at hotmail.com Mon Nov 3 13:42:49 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 15:42:49 -0600 Subject: Neil Gaiman at slashdot Message-ID: http://interviews.slashdot.org/interviews/03/11/03/1349252.shtml?tid=188&tid=192&tid=97 There's a nice question and answer interview with Neil at /. today. During the course of the proceedings, Neil gets the following question and makes the following comment: 3) I know I should be asking about you and your work - by rgoer So I love every word I've read from your pen, but presently I'm in the middle of a dry spell--and the way I figure, if you're going to seek advice, seek advice from one you admire, right? So, are there any authors out there right now you can't get enough of? Anybody you're reading that you feel nobody should miss? Fiction, nonfiction, a decent biography you've read lately? Do you even have time to get a good read in with all the hustle and bustle of just being Neil Gaiman? Neil: "I don't get as much reading time as I want, and I miss it very much. But I still read. When you start writing fiction, you start reading less fiction. Not sure why this is, but it's true." Would you say this is true for the rest of you? Ironically, I find the opposite to be true for me. The more fiction I read, the more inspired I am by the simple flush of creative proximinity to do my own creating. Regards, johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ "There are only three rules to writing a novel; unfortunately, no one knows what they are." --Somerset Maugham _________________________________________________________________ Never get a busy signal because you are always connected with high-speed Internet access. Click here to comparison-shop providers. https://broadband.msn.com From bonham15 at cox.net Mon Nov 3 14:12:29 2003 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 16:12:29 -0600 Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb References: <21.36bde77c.2cd716c9@aol.com> Message-ID: <003501c3a257$92698830$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> must kill this one... the reason sorcery got so advanced was simply this... people had essentially been lifting sorcerous weights during the interregnum, trying to do fractions of what they could before... the people themselves had more knowledge due to the intense period of study etc etc... andy > > > > Question- Where does it say the Orb was improved while > > it was in the Path of the Dead? Where am I missing > > this little kernel of knowledge? > > > > > Sorcery was limited pre-interregnum. Teleportation was very hardso as not to > be practical..Witness that in PG and FHYA Khavvren and Crew travel the Empire > on horseback. Revivication was not possible. either. My guess would be that > the Orb was somehow enhanced Post-Interregnum because where there used to be ONE > sea of Chaos now there are Two. Which would mean one EXTRA source of Amorphia > for the Orb to draw on. Actually this was said in one of the books, but for > the life of me I cant remember which one > Maybe Phoenix or one of the Khavvren Romances. > From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Nov 3 14:12:45 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 14:12:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: A thought concerning Skinter's future... Message-ID: <200311032212.hA3MCjg06100@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Philip Hart wrote: > Has he (Krager) ever been observed to teleport? Well, he's teleported *with* someone before, but I don't recall him ever doing it himself that we've seen. My brain has warped, I can't recall which instance it was that Krager was teleported along with Vlad. During his war with what's-his-name in Yendi? Or was it during the little altercations he was having in Phoenix? Oh, darn. Time for another re-read, I guess.... :) Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From warlord at dragon.com Mon Nov 3 14:15:21 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 17:15:21 -0500 Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb In-Reply-To: <003501c3a257$92698830$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> Message-ID: it's encryptonite! ... must ... reach ... reply/all key .... ...getting weaker.... W > -----Original Message----- > From: bonham15 [mailto:bonham15 at cox.net] > Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 5:12 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Some thoughts on the Orb > > > must kill this one... the reason sorcery got so advanced was > simply this... > people had essentially been lifting sorcerous weights during the > interregnum, trying to do fractions of what they could before... > the people > themselves had more knowledge due to the intense period of study > etc etc... > > andy > > > > > > > Question- Where does it say the Orb was improved while > > > it was in the Path of the Dead? Where am I missing > > > this little kernel of knowledge? > > > > > > > > Sorcery was limited pre-interregnum. Teleportation was very > hardso as not > to > > be practical..Witness that in PG and FHYA Khavvren and Crew travel the > Empire > > on horseback. Revivication was not possible. either. My guess would be > that > > the Orb was somehow enhanced Post-Interregnum because where > there used to > be ONE > > sea of Chaos now there are Two. Which would mean one EXTRA source of > Amorphia > > for the Orb to draw on. Actually this was said in one of the books, but > for > > the life of me I cant remember which one > > Maybe Phoenix or one of the Khavvren Romances. > > > > > From dusty at sayersnet.com Mon Nov 3 14:18:51 2003 From: dusty at sayersnet.com (J A 'Dusty' Sayers) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 17:18:51 -0500 Subject: A thought concerning Skinter's future... In-Reply-To: <200311032212.hA3MCjg06100@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200311032212.hA3MCjg06100@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <3FA6D44B.7040403@sayersnet.com> I seem to recall that Kragar teleported some during the war with Laris in Yendi, mostly to pick up money from Vlad's underlings to keep them >from getting murdered on the way to make their payoffs early in the war--it was seen as unusual that Melestav couldn't teleport, and the implication was that others, including Kragar, could. However, it's been a few months, or longer, since I last read Yendi, so I could be wrong. Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: >Philip Hart wrote: > > >> Has he (Krager) ever been observed to teleport? >> >> > >Well, he's teleported *with* someone before, but I >don't recall him ever doing it himself that we've >seen. > >My brain has warped, I can't recall which instance >it was that Krager was teleported along with Vlad. >During his war with what's-his-name in Yendi? Or >was it during the little altercations he was having >in Phoenix? > >Oh, darn. Time for another re-read, I guess.... > >:) >Chris > >"Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you >in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." > -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' > > > > > -- J A Dusty Sayers Home Page http://www.sayersnet.com/~dusty/ Rescue the Princess http://www.sayersnet.com/~dusty/rescue/ 'Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.' --Benjamin Franklin From ReVibe68 at aol.com Mon Nov 3 14:59:05 2003 From: ReVibe68 at aol.com (ReVibe68 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 17:59:05 EST Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb Message-ID: In a message dated 11/2/03 10:53:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, agrajag at dragaera.net writes: > That's right, its implied in _Issola_ that there is no link between the > Orb and the Lesser Sea of Chaos. Although I do wonder if there might be > a linke between [ISSOLA Spoiler]GodSlayer and the Lesser Sea of Chaos. > We don't know enough about GS to know if it would be needed, but it > would be interesting if they were linked, like the Orb and the Greater > Sea are linked and Pathfinder and Dzur Mountain are linked. > > IIRC its not Pathfinder thats linked to Dzur Mountain, It's Iceflame Sethra's Great Weapon. ..And what made you think that there might be a link between GodSlayer and the Lesser Sea of Chaos? THat might explain how GS is powerful enough to kill a Lord Of Judgement. Politicians and Diapers have one thing in common. They should be changed regularly and for The Same Reason!!. Truth Is Truth. From kknolte at ecity.net Mon Nov 3 09:09:53 2003 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 18:09:53 +0100 Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb References: <20031103014937.66595.qmail@web40110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3FA68BDF.2543@ecity.net> Toubib wrote: > > A question and a statement. > > Question- Where does it say the Orb was improved while > it was in the Path of the Dead? Where am I missing > this little kernel of knowledge? Others have already answered this better than I could, but yes, given Paarfi's unreliable status, it might be wise not to read too much into it. > > Statement-I think Adron was just a little crazy/power > hungry. How could he lost count of the Cycle, > especially when Aliera told him it was the reign of a > decadent Phoenix and that only happens at the end of > the 17th Cycle. That's why I'm curious as to whether anything has been said about whether the Cycle was created, or by whom. For instance, if it's the equivalent of an astrological chart, the Dragons (or whoever) might not like that the star-equivalent say they'll have rotten luck if they try to overthrow the Emperor now, but they probably won't be thinking about moving a few planets around so they *will* have good luck in such endeavours, given what the star-equivalents now say. OTOH, say the Cycle has this rotating Emperor-ship thing for the same reason the Iraqi governing council does - because when Kieron set up his Alliance of All the Tribes, each of the tribes thought they were the ones most suited for leadership. In which case, the Cycle might have been set up at the same time the Orb was created, and by the same people. And if you can hack the Orb if you know what you're doing, why couldn't you think you could hack the Cycle as well if you thought you were good enough? From agrajag at dragaera.net Mon Nov 3 16:50:59 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 03 Nov 2003 19:50:59 -0500 Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb In-Reply-To: <20031103043811.39990.qmail@web40111.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20031103043811.39990.qmail@web40111.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1067907059.2019.1.camel@loiosh> On Sun, 2003-11-02 at 23:38, Toubib wrote: > > No, I meant Lesser. The Orb draws its power from the Greater Sea of Chaos not the Lesser. Why would there be a link between Godslayer and the Lesser Sea? Other then the fact that Godslayer was created/re-create near the Lesser Sea I don't recall anything happening that would forge a link. I know its a bit of a stretch, but here are my thoughts on it, from a while back: http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1:mss:5043:200212:cjfehnloijgmhcgpojde > And I think you mean the link between Iceflame and Dzur Mountain, not Pathfinder. Doh! You're right. I kept thinking of Iceflame, but using the name Pathfinder. Guess that's what I get for ignoring the list for a few months. Jag From agrajag at dragaera.net Mon Nov 3 16:54:12 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 03 Nov 2003 19:54:12 -0500 Subject: A thought concerning Skinter's future... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1067907252.2019.5.camel@loiosh> On Mon, 2003-11-03 at 03:26, David Silberstein wrote: > So I wondered: what will happen to K?na, also called Skinter, after he > loses? We know he's going to, of course. > > Well, the most likely scenario is that he will lose his head. But I > had the following notion: > > Consider that the driving force behind his strategy, the brains of the > outfit, is really his cousin. > > Consider also that perhaps the illegality of his rebellion situation > is a bit uncertain. Is he in fact being treasonous? There isn't an > Empire yet for him to be treasonous *to*. > > And What if he eventually surrenders? What if the Empress decides to > show him clemency? What happens next? > > Well, it occurs to me that his House might be sufficiently annoyed > with him that they might well eject him from it. And either the > Empire or the House might wish to punish him for his overreaching > arrogance by somehow cursing him (using sorcery or elder sorcery or > necromancy, or whatever), by causing him to become a complete > non-entity, well-nigh invisible. > > And he might then change his name, and join the Jhereg, and, suffused > with bitterness, vow never to be the one in charge. > > As I type this up, it seems more and more farfetched. > But I still think it an amusing notion. It is a rather amusing notion, but I believe I've found a flaw in it. It was mentioned that due to Kragar's natural ability/curse of being unnoticed, he was unable to lead in battle, and that was somehow related to him being thrown out of his original House. So, this means that Kragar has always been unnoticed (or at least it started before he left the House), *and* he was a very ineffective leader in battle. We know that Kana has been somewhat of an effective leader, and people do notice him, so I'm hesitant to believe your theory. From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Mon Nov 3 17:03:29 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 17:03:29 -0800 Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb In-Reply-To: <003501c3a257$92698830$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> References: <21.36bde77c.2cd716c9@aol.com> <003501c3a257$92698830$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> Message-ID: <20031104010329.GA6259@ofb.net> On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 04:12:29PM -0600, bonham15 wrote: > must kill this one... the reason sorcery got so advanced was simply this... > people had essentially been lifting sorcerous weights during the > interregnum, trying to do fractions of what they could before... the people > themselves had more knowledge due to the intense period of study etc etc... You can't kill this because the text is inconsistent. Vlad in _Phoenix_ reports Verra as telling him sorcerers got better with practices. But in _Paths of the Dead_ Paarfi has the gods upgrading the Orb. Which makes sense -- for most people, the Orb doesn't make sorcery easier, it makes it *possible*. But I personally prefer the idea that Zerika is an awakened reincarnation of Zerika I and upgraded the Orb herself, adding new routines for teleportation and revivification. That, or the Orb itself learned from being teleported and spending time in the Paths. But cute as that is, I think I'd go with an original programmer upgrade. The Orb using the Lesser Sea both contradicts _Issola_ and doesn't make much sense to me -- the Orb's energy supply seems well-nigh infinite, whereas the big improvements seem more a matter of control. Although... I suppose if the power of the Greater Sea were finite, and used mostly for Imperial protection with sorcery as a luxury, then the Lesser Sea might be lagniappe. On the other hand, the old Orb could support multiple floating castles. Maybe that's why sorcery's more powerful -- the load went down, literally... -xx- Damien X-) From agrajag at dragaera.net Mon Nov 3 17:13:28 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 03 Nov 2003 20:13:28 -0500 Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb In-Reply-To: <003501c3a257$92698830$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> References: <21.36bde77c.2cd716c9@aol.com> <003501c3a257$92698830$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> Message-ID: <1067908408.2019.10.camel@loiosh> On Mon, 2003-11-03 at 17:12, bonham15 wrote: > must kill this one... the reason sorcery got so advanced was simply this... > people had essentially been lifting sorcerous weights during the > interregnum, trying to do fractions of what they could before... the people > themselves had more knowledge due to the intense period of study etc etc... Unfortunately, that doesn't make sense. You're saying that when the Orb went away it was like lifting boulders without using a lever and fulcrum and instead lifting by hand. So when the level/fulcrum were usable again, they were able to lift much bigger boulders with them. But that's not what it was like. It's like going from lifting boulders with your arms to suddenly not having any arms. No matter how much you try to adjust, you're not going to do anything except hurt yourself as you uselessly throw your body against the boulder.[1] [1] The exception of course being those who switched to Elder sorcery, but based on what we saw in the books, I'm counting that as a negligable population. Jag From rone at ennui.org Mon Nov 3 17:18:24 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (roger n. tospott) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 17:18:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Neil Gaiman at slashdot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031104011824.6F8F526C2D@boredom.ennui.org> Johne Cook writes: [Neil Gaiman] When you start writing fiction, you start reading less fiction. Not sure why this is, but it's true." Would you say this is true for the rest of you? Ironically, I find the opposite to be true for me. The more fiction I read, the more inspired I am by the simple flush of creative proximinity to do my own creating. I think it's a matter of simple math... there are only so many hours in the day, and if you spend your reading time writing, well, you don't have that much time left to read. rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From lister at insaneninjahero.com Mon Nov 3 17:31:20 2003 From: lister at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 17:31:20 -0800 Subject: Neil Gaiman at slashdot In-Reply-To: <20031104011824.6F8F526C2D@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20031104011824.6F8F526C2D@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <3FA70168.1010805@insaneninjahero.com> roger n. tospott wrote: > Johne Cook writes: > [Neil Gaiman] > When you start writing fiction, you start reading less fiction. Not sure why > this is, but it's true." > Would you say this is true for the rest of you? Ironically, I find the > opposite to be true for me. The more fiction I read, the more inspired I am > by the simple flush of creative proximinity to do my own creating. > > I think it's a matter of simple math... there are only so many hours > in the day, and if you spend your reading time writing, well, you > don't have that much time left to read. > > rone I find myself less interested in other folks' stories... "now why did he do that?", "that character is an idiot" and "I wouldn't have written it THAT way" are harder to ignore when I'm writing my own stories. Kisc From toubib21 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 3 18:19:01 2003 From: toubib21 at yahoo.com (Toubib) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 18:19:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb In-Reply-To: <3FA68BDF.2543@ecity.net> Message-ID: <20031104021901.87818.qmail@web40105.mail.yahoo.com> --- K Kuhn wrote: [snip] > That's why I'm curious as to whether anything has > been said about > whether the Cycle was created, or by whom. For > instance, if it's the > equivalent of an astrological chart, the Dragons (or > whoever) might not > like that the star-equivalent say they'll have > rotten luck if they try > to overthrow the Emperor now, but they probably > won't be thinking about > moving a few planets around so they *will* have good > luck in such > endeavours, given what the star-equivalents now say. > > OTOH, say the Cycle has this rotating Emperor-ship > thing for the same > reason the Iraqi governing council does - because > when Kieron set up his > Alliance of All the Tribes, each of the tribes > thought they were the > ones most suited for leadership. In which case, the > Cycle might have > been set up at the same time the Orb was created, > and by the same > people. And if you can hack the Orb if you know > what you're doing, why > couldn't you think you could hack the Cycle as well > if you thought you > were good enough? > As far as I can tell the Cycle is a big wheel on a stone wall in the Path of the Deads. It's not a physical representation, but the actually Cycle. And the legend is that if you could forcefully move the wheel, the the Cycle has turned, but you would have to have enough power to move history itself. But no where that I've read has it said who made the Cycle or how it works. ===== Doc www.toubib.us __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ From toubib21 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 3 18:25:22 2003 From: toubib21 at yahoo.com (Toubib) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 18:25:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: A thought concerning Skinter's future... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031104022522.53063.qmail@web40107.mail.yahoo.com> --- Philip Hart wrote: > Kragar is smart - consider how often Vlad takes > credit for his ideas. > It seems much more likely to me that Skinter's > cousin asks for a > sex-change as part of the exile package, ... > > By the way, do we know that Kragar is a citizen? > What's his title in the > Jhereg? Hmm, guess he must be a citizen, as he > contacts Vlad psionically, > presumably using sorcery to do so. Has he ever been > observed to teleport? > Aliera says that the Dragon Council kicked Kragar out of the House, so I'd say that pretty much says he's a Citizen, not to mention I don't think anyone makes it a habit of having non-Jhereg in Organization business as deep as Kragar is. But there is a lot that is not know about Kragar. Like I've yet to come across a description of him other then he's 7' tall. I expect this from Vlad, since he'd hardly describe himself, but would expect to see Kragar describe at some point. But I guess it helps to characterize his invisibility. And I wonder if Mr. Brust does this on purpose. ===== Doc www.toubib.us __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Nov 3 18:28:03 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 18:28:03 -0800 Subject: Neil Gaiman at slashdot References: <20031104011824.6F8F526C2D@boredom.ennui.org> <3FA70168.1010805@insaneninjahero.com> Message-ID: <002c01c3a27b$4763b620$fe00000a@steve> I've found I've steadily been reading less fiction and more non-fiction. I have no idea if that's related to writing, or if I'm just getting old enough to not have fun any more. > roger n. tospott wrote: > > > Johne Cook writes: > > [Neil Gaiman] > > When you start writing fiction, you start reading less fiction. Not sure why > > this is, but it's true." > > Would you say this is true for the rest of you? Ironically, I find the > > opposite to be true for me. The more fiction I read, the more inspired I am > > by the simple flush of creative proximinity to do my own creating. > > > > I think it's a matter of simple math... there are only so many hours > > in the day, and if you spend your reading time writing, well, you > > don't have that much time left to read. > > > > rone > > I find myself less interested in other folks' stories... "now why did he > do that?", "that character is an idiot" and "I wouldn't have written it > THAT way" are harder to ignore when I'm writing my own stories. > > Kisc > > From toubib21 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 3 18:30:33 2003 From: toubib21 at yahoo.com (Toubib) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 18:30:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: A thought concerning Skinter's future... In-Reply-To: <200311032212.hA3MCjg06100@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <20031104023033.14763.qmail@web40103.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > Philip Hart wrote: [snip] > My brain has warped, I can't recall which instance > it was that Krager was teleported along with Vlad. > During his war with what's-his-name in Yendi? Or > was it during the little altercations he was having > in Phoenix? > > Oh, darn. Time for another re-read, I guess.... It was Phoenix ===== Doc www.toubib.us __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ From toubib21 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 3 18:37:55 2003 From: toubib21 at yahoo.com (Toubib) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 18:37:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb In-Reply-To: <1067907059.2019.1.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: <20031104023755.56835.qmail@web40102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jag wrote: > On Sun, 2003-11-02 at 23:38, Toubib wrote: [snip] > I know its a bit of a stretch, but here are my > thoughts on it, from a > while back: > > http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1:mss:5043:200212:cjfehnloijgmhcgpojde > > > And I think you mean the link between Iceflame > and Dzur Mountain, not Pathfinder. > > Jag I see your point, and it's always possible that the Jenoine could have augmented the Morgantti dagger before giving it to Vlad, but you're right it's a bit of a stretch. I would say there is more of a chance that Pathfinder is linked thru Aliera to the Lesser Sea. But that's just a way out in left field thought, that I almost immediately discarded. ===== Doc www.toubib.us __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ From toubib21 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 3 18:56:56 2003 From: toubib21 at yahoo.com (Toubib) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 18:56:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb In-Reply-To: <20031104010329.GA6259@ofb.net> Message-ID: <20031104025656.58436.qmail@web40107.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Sullivan wrote: [snip] > Which makes sense -- for most people, the Orb > doesn't make sorcery easier Actually that is exactly what the Orb does. The Orb is really just a power regulator for amorphia and amplifier for mental energy. It takes the small psionic energy in the mind of a human or Dragaeran thru the necrophia veins and releases power from the amorphia in the Great Sea. Without the Orb you would have to have enough mental power to directly release power from the Great Sea(or any other source of amorphia I presume). The problem with dealing with amorphia directly is that there is no control other then your mind. That's where necrophia comes into play on the back end. It controls the release of amorphia power. So anyone can try to control amorphia directly, but without proper training they will probably do what Vlad did in Jhereg and have some uncontrolled amorphia consume everything in it's path. Which therefore also negates the fact that others then those trained in Elder Sorcery can't work with amorphia directly. Vlad did it with no training other then the knowledge that his soul could. Elder Sorcery is one step away from what he did. ===== Doc www.toubib.us __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ From rone at ennui.org Mon Nov 3 19:21:30 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (roger n. tospott) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 19:21:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Neil Gaiman at slashdot In-Reply-To: <002c01c3a27b$4763b620$fe00000a@steve> Message-ID: <20031104032130.BCC3426C2D@boredom.ennui.org> Steven Brust writes: I've found I've steadily been reading less fiction and more non-fiction. I have no idea if that's related to writing, or if I'm just getting old enough to not have fun any more. Sounds like somebody's got a case of the Mondays. rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Mon Nov 3 19:33:58 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 19:33:58 -0800 Subject: Neil Gaiman at slashdot In-Reply-To: <002c01c3a27b$4763b620$fe00000a@steve> References: <20031104011824.6F8F526C2D@boredom.ennui.org> <3FA70168.1010805@insaneninjahero.com> <002c01c3a27b$4763b620$fe00000a@steve> Message-ID: <20031104033358.GA22400@ofb.net> On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 06:28:03PM -0800, Steven Brust wrote: > > I've found I've steadily been reading less fiction and more non-fiction. I > have no idea if that's related to writing, or if I'm just getting old enough > to not have fun any more. If non-fiction wasn't fun, I wouldn't read it. Cue your quote about people not learnign sorcery being like people not using libraries. So wotcha been reading? -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Mon Nov 3 19:44:02 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 19:44:02 -0800 Subject: A thought concerning Skinter's future... In-Reply-To: <20031104022522.53063.qmail@web40107.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20031104022522.53063.qmail@web40107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20031104034402.GB22400@ofb.net> On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 06:25:22PM -0800, Toubib wrote: > know about Kragar. Like I've yet to come across a > description of him other then he's 7' tall. I expect Taltos, Chapter 8: "Then I noticed that the House of the Dragon was so clearly marked on his face I couldn't understand how I'd missed it before... He was almost exactly seven feet tall, had medium straight brown hair, brown eyes, and well, really nothing else to distinguish him." -xx- Damien X-) From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Nov 3 20:11:40 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 20:11:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: A thought concerning Skinter's future... In-Reply-To: <20031104034402.GB22400@ofb.net> References: <20031104022522.53063.qmail@web40107.mail.yahoo.com> <20031104034402.GB22400@ofb.net> Message-ID: This reminds AFB me that Vlad somewhere says Kragar is an entirely average Dragaeran in appearance (no luck with the book search on average or medium or typical) - while of course the typical Dragaeran looks like a Teckla. It seems likely that the run-of-the-mill Teckla eats less well than the nobility, gets worse health care, etc., and hence is shorter than Vlad's friends/enemies. On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, Damien Sullivan wrote: > On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 06:25:22PM -0800, Toubib wrote: > > > know about Kragar. Like I've yet to come across a > > description of him other then he's 7' tall. I expect > > Taltos, Chapter 8: > "Then I noticed that the House of the Dragon was so clearly marked on his face > I couldn't understand how I'd missed it before... > > He was almost exactly seven feet tall, had medium straight brown hair, brown > eyes, and well, really nothing else to distinguish him." > > -xx- Damien X-) > From davids at kithrup.com Tue Nov 4 01:05:28 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 01:05:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: A thought concerning Skinter's future... In-Reply-To: <1067907252.2019.5.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: On 3 Nov 2003, Jag wrote: >On Mon, 2003-11-03 at 03:26, David Silberstein wrote: [Skinter -> Kragar, perhaps] >It is a rather amusing notion, but I believe I've found a flaw in it. >It was mentioned that due to Kragar's natural ability/curse of being >unnoticed, he was unable to lead in battle, and that was somehow related >to him being thrown out of his original House. Yes, but that wasn't some ex cathedra explanation, that was Kragar's own off-the-cuff explanation - which, I think, even Vlad thought was more than a little fishy. I won't absolutely accept it until I see Morrolan or Sethra mentioning it. And thinking about it, it doesn't really make sense. How in hell would he get a command unless he impressed his superiors with his ability to be a commander? They don't just throw soldiers in the field and tell one of them "Hey, you. You're in charge. If you fuck up, you're outta the House." (And how would they have noticed him to do so?) As we see in /Dragon/, not all members of House Dragon are cut out to lead. Some are quite content to be grunts for a very long time. I thought of another amusing fact that strengthens my argument: Morrolan, when he sees Kragar for the first time (to Vlad's knowledge), indicates that he knows him, and says "Forgive me if I don't bow." Assuming my theory is true, isn't that just a perfect snark to someone who at one time had pretensions of being Emperor? From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Nov 4 01:25:45 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 03:25:45 -0600 Subject: A thought concerning Skinter's future... In-Reply-To: References: <1067907252.2019.5.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: <20031104092545.GE31603@infodancer.org> On Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 01:05:28AM -0800, David Silberstein wrote: > On 3 Nov 2003, Jag wrote: > >On Mon, 2003-11-03 at 03:26, David Silberstein wrote: > [Skinter -> Kragar, perhaps] > >It is a rather amusing notion, but I believe I've found a flaw in it. > >It was mentioned that due to Kragar's natural ability/curse of being > >unnoticed, he was unable to lead in battle, and that was somehow related > >to him being thrown out of his original House. > Yes, but that wasn't some ex cathedra explanation, that was Kragar's > own off-the-cuff explanation - which, I think, even Vlad thought was > more than a little fishy. I won't absolutely accept it until I see > Morrolan or Sethra mentioning it. > > And thinking about it, it doesn't really make sense. How in hell > would he get a command unless he impressed his superiors with his > ability to be a commander? They don't just throw soldiers in the > field and tell one of them "Hey, you. You're in charge. If you fuck > up, you're outta the House." (And how would they have noticed him to > do so?) Actually, they do -- with nobility, at least in our own feudal societies. When you have a heriditary noble in charge, you pretty much have to hope that he knows his stuff or else knows enough to leave it to those who do. I can easily see Kragar as the son of someone important, expected to be a military leader for that reason alone, and given various commands that he manages not to entirely fuck up until he's got the chance to *really* get in trouble. > I thought of another amusing fact that strengthens my argument: > Morrolan, when he sees Kragar for the first time (to Vlad's > knowledge), indicates that he knows him, and says "Forgive me if I > don't bow." Assuming my theory is true, isn't that just a perfect > snark to someone who at one time had pretensions of being Emperor? I must admit I rather like this whole idea. It would add a lot of depth to Kragar's character. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Tue Nov 4 05:53:14 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 08:53:14 -0500 Subject: Neil Gaiman at slashdot In-Reply-To: <002c01c3a27b$4763b620$fe00000a@steve> References: <20031104011824.6F8F526C2D@boredom.ennui.org> <3FA70168.1010805@insaneninjahero.com> <002c01c3a27b$4763b620$fe00000a@steve> Message-ID: <20031104135314.GA45113@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 06:28:03PM -0800, Steven Brust wrote: > I've found I've steadily been reading less fiction and more non-fiction. I > have no idea if that's related to writing, or if I'm just getting old enough > to not have fun any more. IMHO ones tolerance of mediocre fiction writing declines over time. Non-fiction is driven as much by the interesting-ness of the facts, and one can tolerate mediocre prose in pursuit of those interesting facts. Plus non-fiction doesn't suffer as much from unbelievable characters or impossible plots. From bio_phy at hotmail.com Tue Nov 4 06:48:26 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 08:48:26 -0600 Subject: Neil Gaiman at slashdot Message-ID: Good point - I think there's something to be said for that. I picked up an Amber prequel awhile back (not written by Roger Zelazny) and was wincing for the few chapters that I could get through. I really should finish the book just out of respect for Roger and the series that I have such fondness for, but at this point, it feels like work. I don't know anything about the author and won't disparage him here because I'm not sure it's his fault that he's not Roger (freaking) Zelazny, but still, he's not, and that's all there is to it. I'm not sure if it's me being a Zelazny snob or the work not being up to snuff, all I know is that I didn't like it. With that said, I've been having a /great/ time reading David Brin's _Kiln People_, which reassures me that there is still some good Sci Fi out there. He's pulling off the trick of sketching what appears to be a /practically/ impossible plot and making it not only work, but sing. It inspires me. If he can animate clay golems, I tell myself I can surely animate real people. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ "There are only three rules to writing a novel; unfortunately, no one knows what they are." --Somerset Maugham >From: Steve Simmons >To: Steven Brust >CC: "Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert" , "roger n. >tospott" , SKZB List >Subject: Re: Neil Gaiman at slashdot >Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 08:53:14 -0500 > >IMHO ones tolerance of mediocre fiction writing declines over time. >Non-fiction is driven as much by the interesting-ness of the facts, >and one can tolerate mediocre prose in pursuit of those interesting >facts. > >Plus non-fiction doesn't suffer as much from unbelievable characters >or impossible plots. _________________________________________________________________ Frustrated with dial-up? Get high-speed for as low as $26.95. https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.) From zarkon at illrepute.org Tue Nov 4 07:06:02 2003 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 10:06:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Neil Gaiman at slashdot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Johne Cook wrote: @> I picked up an Amber prequel awhile back (not written by Roger Zelazny) and @> was wincing for the few chapters that I could get through. I really should @> finish the book just out of respect for Roger and the series that I have @> such fondness for, but at this point, it feels like work. I don't know @> anything about the author and won't disparage him here because I'm not sure @> it's his fault that he's not Roger (freaking) Zelazny, but still, he's not, @> and that's all there is to it. I'm not sure if it's me being a Zelazny snob @> or the work not being up to snuff, all I know is that I didn't like it. I couldn't manage to make myself read those in the first place, probably because I read somewhere (i.e. everywhere) that Zelazny considered Amber to be really personal and didn't want other people writing in that universe. And then, he died and some people decided they could make more money by not respecting his wishes. A more succinct version (albeit with a different author): http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2003-10-15&res=l @> With that said, I've been having a /great/ time reading David Brin's _Kiln @> People_, which reassures me that there is still some good Sci Fi out there. @> He's pulling off the trick of sketching what appears to be a /practically/ @> impossible plot and making it not only work, but sing. It inspires me. If @> he can animate clay golems, I tell myself I can surely animate real people. Just finished reading that, and agree on every particular. (Although the ending was typically bizarre.) From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue Nov 4 07:28:42 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 07:28:42 -0800 Subject: Neil Gaiman at slashdot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031104152842.GA23118@ofb.net> On Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 08:48:26AM -0600, Johne Cook wrote: > and that's all there is to it. I'm not sure if it's me being a Zelazny > snob or the work not being up to snuff, all I know is that I didn't like it. I looked at those. I think it's because it's not up to snuff. -xx- Damien X-) From davids at kithrup.com Tue Nov 4 12:48:56 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 12:48:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: A thought concerning Skinter's future... In-Reply-To: <20031104092545.GE31603@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: >On Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 01:05:28AM -0800, David Silberstein > wrote: >> On 3 Nov 2003, Jag wrote: [Skinter -> Kragar, perhaps] >> >It is a rather amusing notion, but I believe I've found a flaw in it. >> >It was mentioned that due to Kragar's natural ability/curse of being >> >unnoticed, he was unable to lead in battle, and that was somehow related >> >to him being thrown out of his original House. >> Yes, but that wasn't some ex cathedra explanation, that was Kragar's >> own off-the-cuff explanation - which, I think, even Vlad thought was >> more than a little fishy. I won't absolutely accept it until I see >> Morrolan or Sethra mentioning it. >> >> And thinking about it, it doesn't really make sense. How in hell >> would he get a command unless he impressed his superiors with his >> ability to be a commander? They don't just throw soldiers in the >> field and tell one of them "Hey, you. You're in charge. If you fuck >> up, you're outta the House." (And how would they have noticed him to >> do so?) > >Actually, they do -- with nobility, at least in our own feudal >societies. When you have a heriditary noble in charge, you >pretty much have to hope that he knows his stuff or else knows >enough to leave it to those who do. Well, perhaps. Assuming he's had this "fade" thing going on for his whole life, I can see him setting up a trusted liutenant to relay all his orders, and perhaps, when this trusted liutenant gets killed, he can't cut it? > I can easily see Kragar as the son of someone important, expected >to be a military leader for that reason alone, and given various >commands that he manages not to entirely fuck up until he's got the >chance to *really* get in trouble. > Still "trouble", in the military, usually means death, or possibly forced retirement from the army itself. Assuming he didn't do something that the military would deem deserving of execution, incompetence alone would probably just get him cashiered. No matter what his fuckup was, expulsion from House Dragon itself is very, very unusual. Hmm. Now I am reminded of my previous Kragar theory, which is that he's a half-breed mixed-House of some sort. http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1:msp:6162:jchnmcgmchpbemkjfpnp From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Nov 4 13:27:47 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 15:27:47 -0600 Subject: A thought concerning Skinter's future... In-Reply-To: References: <20031104092545.GE31603@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20031104212747.GC29993@infodancer.org> On Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 12:48:56PM -0800, David Silberstein wrote: > Still "trouble", in the military, usually means death, or possibly > forced retirement from the army itself. Assuming he didn't do > something that the military would deem deserving of execution, > incompetence alone would probably just get him cashiered. > > No matter what his fuckup was, expulsion from House Dragon itself is > very, very unusual. Cowardice would do it. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From Randi128 at aol.com Tue Nov 4 13:30:23 2003 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 16:30:23 EST Subject: Neil Gaiman at slashdot Message-ID: <54.1baeeefb.2cd9746f@aol.com> On Tues. Nov 4, 2003 Steve Simmons wrote: >On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 06:28:03PM -0800, Steven Brust wrote: >> I've found I've steadily been reading less fiction and more non-fiction. I >> have no idea if that's related to writing, or if I'm just getting old enough >>to not have fun any more. Probably a little of both. In the last six months I've read a sociology textbook, "The wealth of nations", "New ideas from dead economists", "The elegant universe" and I am reviewing calculus with a tutorial. I couldn't read more than a few pages of "the wealth of nations" without falling asleep when I was in college, but now--I find it quite fascinating. On the other hand, calculus was a blow-off class for me, I was the only 'A', and now I find it takes me a week to work through one chapter of the review. Your brain changes over time I guess. (yes I know that statement is vague and inappropriate coming from a doctor, but I am brain dead today from pain killers for my back. Boy wouldn't hate to be my patient today?) >IMHO ones tolerance of mediocre fiction writing declines over time.Non-fiction is >driven as much by the interesting-ness of the facts,and one can tolerate mediocre >prose in pursuit of those interestingfacts.Plus non-fiction doesn't suffer as much >from unbelievable charactersor impossible plots. True but-----There is plenty of good SF/F and straight fiction out there, you just have to find it. John D. Barbato, O.D. From feaelin at kemenel.org Tue Nov 4 13:36:32 2003 From: feaelin at kemenel.org (Iain E. Davis) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 15:36:32 -0600 Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: <20031104212747.GC29993@infodancer.org> References: <20031104092545.GE31603@infodancer.org> <20031104212747.GC29993@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.0.20031104153142.01be7cb0@kemenel.org> At 03:27 PM 11/4/2003, you wrote: >On Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 12:48:56PM -0800, David Silberstein > wrote: > > Still "trouble", in the military, usually means death, or possibly > > forced retirement from the army itself. Assuming he didn't do > > something that the military would deem deserving of execution, > > incompetence alone would probably just get him cashiered. > > > > No matter what his fuckup was, expulsion from House Dragon itself is > > very, very unusual. > >Cowardice would do it. That's what I was thinking. Or at least perceived cowardice. Definitions of cowardice may vary. To be honest I can't picture Kana as Kragar, or vice-versa. But that's purely by gut-feeling, I can't support with any evidence. :) I actually wonder if Kragar did something along the lines of "disobeyed orders to save his unit's lives", ending up in the position of being officially expelled, but unofficially thanked, as it were. :) From davids at kithrup.com Tue Nov 4 13:39:40 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 13:39:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: A thought concerning Skinter's future... In-Reply-To: <200311042108.hA4L8VYb038248@shrek.keyway.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Trager wrote: >> Hmm. Now I am reminded of my previous Kragar theory, which is that >> he's a half-breed mixed-House of some sort. >The one problem I have with that kind of theory is that when Vlad >first meets Kragar, he makes an internal monologue comment about how >apparent Kragar's Dragon heritage is. That always led me to believe >that Kragar was a full blooded Dragon. > I know, which is why I (mostly) limited my hypothesizing to Houses which have "no distinguishing features", i.e., Yendi & Jhereg. My other notion is that some Houses might have features very similar to Dragons (note that Zerika, a Phoenix, appears to be similar to a Dragon, although no one guesses at first which House she actually is), or alternatively, that some House has features that nearly exactly "cancel out" the Dragon features, leaving them Dragon-like, but otherwise bland. House Hawk might be a case of the former, House Teckla the latter. Although of course, it is all just speculation. Finally, there is always the point that Vlad is not always as observant as he likes to think. He may have seen "Dragon", and said "aha", and stopped looking. Remember, these are unreliable narrators >from an (occasionally) unreliable author. From davids at kithrup.com Tue Nov 4 13:53:43 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 13:53:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.0.20031104153142.01be7cb0@kemenel.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Iain E. Davis wrote: >At 03:27 PM 11/4/2003, you wrote: >>On Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 12:48:56PM -0800, David Silberstein >> wrote: >> > Still "trouble", in the military, usually means death, or possibly >> > forced retirement from the army itself. Assuming he didn't do >> > something that the military would deem deserving of execution, >> > incompetence alone would probably just get him cashiered. >> > >> > No matter what his fuckup was, expulsion from House Dragon >> > itself is very, very unusual. >> >>Cowardice would do it. > >That's what I was thinking. Or at least perceived cowardice. >Definitions of cowardice may vary. But cowardice in the face of the enemy is a capital offence, according to Sethra. He wouldn't have been expelled, but rather executed. And for that matter, Kragar has never seemed exactly cowardly to me. Unambitious, yes, but not cowardly. >To be honest I can't picture Kana as Kragar, or vice-versa. But >that's purely by gut-feeling, I can't support with any evidence. :) > Well, since I have no evidence for my theory, not even gut-feeling, you could very well be entirely correct. They seem to have very different personalities - as I mentioned, Kragar appears to be unusually unambitious - but again, that could be due to narrative unreliability, and also the changed circumstances. >I actually wonder if Kragar did something along the lines of "disobeyed >orders to save his unit's lives", ending up in the position of being >officially expelled, but unofficially thanked, as it were. :) > That is in the class of scenarios that I could see resulting in his being cashiered from that particular army, but not expelled from the House. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Nov 4 14:09:05 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 14:09:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > That is in the class of scenarios that I could see resulting in his > being cashiered from that particular army, but not expelled from the > House. Say it's his third army. Say there's a popular ballad among the Dzur or the Dragon grunts or the Teckla conscripts about Kragar riding off to battle without his platoon behind him and having to ride back in a hurry. Say his superior officers got sick of stumbling over him by accident, or inadvertently discussing classified information in his presence. Say the Dragon Council couldn't come up with anything legit to put on his discharge papers because all the sorcerers say he can't do what he does... From bio_phy at hotmail.com Tue Nov 4 14:50:05 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 16:50:05 -0600 Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) Message-ID: I like Kragar so much. He's such a cool character. I'm looking forward to learning more about his particular (peculiar) backstory some day. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ "There are only three rules to writing a novel; unfortunately, no one knows what they are." --Somerset Maugham >I actually wonder if Kragar did something along the lines of "disobeyed >orders to save his unit's lives", ending up in the position of being >officially expelled, but unofficially thanked, as it were. :) _________________________________________________________________ Crave some Miles Davis or Grateful Dead? Your old favorites are always playing on MSN Radio Plus. Trial month free! http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio From davids at kithrup.com Tue Nov 4 15:21:57 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 15:21:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > > >> That is in the class of scenarios that I could see resulting in his >> being cashiered from that particular army, but not expelled from the >> House. > >Say it's his third army. Say there's a popular ballad among the Dzur or >the Dragon grunts or the Teckla conscripts about Kragar riding off to >battle without his platoon behind him and having to ride back in a >hurry. Say his superior officers got sick of stumbling over him by >accident, or inadvertently discussing classified information in his >presence. Say the Dragon Council couldn't come up with anything legit to >put on his discharge papers because all the sorcerers say he can't do what >he does... > No, still don't quite buy that scenario. Before he'd be given a platoon, he would have to go for officer training, and I can't see how anyone could overlook the way he keeps being overlooked. And I don't see why multiple cashiering would be grounds for House expulsion. Once word got around, he might never be *accepted* for officer-level; indeed, he might never rise above the enlisted men, but why would furthur punishment be necessary? If he's not cut out for command, I can see his officers telling him "Get thee to a spookworks, go!". He's got the perfect set of qualifications for a field intelligence agent, and I can't see that many superior officers failing to note that. Just the other night, I was re-reading the scene in LoCB where Pel walks into Tsanalli's camp and returns with important information. What if Pel is so careful to dress flashily precisely because he otherwise fades into the background? And once again, I'd like to point out that we *have* seen that Pel was once romancing a Dragon... From vtaltos at earthlink.net Tue Nov 4 15:36:13 2003 From: vtaltos at earthlink.net (Malcolm) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 18:36:13 -0500 Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There had to be more to it than that. Morrollan and Aliera have VERY different views on what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior for a Dragon. Oddly, Morrollan is the "conservative" voice where Aliera is more than happy to run off and slaughter at will... Pathfinder in hand. It's almost the exact same relationship you see with Morrollan and Sethra with Morrollan in the impetuous role. Perhaps it is his nature of being "not there" that is the issue. Attacking >from behind appears to be a common theme as "bad," as even Aliera and Morrollan agree on that. Perhaps Kragar did just that. He has a history of attacking from the rear, although perhaps not intentionally..his opponent simply didn't see him at all. Norrathar's vindication from being an assassin shows that there had to be something grave and deep to cause his expulsion. .... or maybe it was just bad genes? /shrug. Malcolm -----Original Message----- From: David Silberstein [mailto:davids at kithrup.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 4:54 PM To: Dragaera List Subject: Re: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Iain E. Davis wrote: >At 03:27 PM 11/4/2003, you wrote: >>On Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 12:48:56PM -0800, David Silberstein >> wrote: >> > Still "trouble", in the military, usually means death, or possibly >> > forced retirement from the army itself. Assuming he didn't do >> > something that the military would deem deserving of execution, >> > incompetence alone would probably just get him cashiered. >> > >> > No matter what his fuckup was, expulsion from House Dragon >> > itself is very, very unusual. >> >>Cowardice would do it. > >That's what I was thinking. Or at least perceived cowardice. >Definitions of cowardice may vary. But cowardice in the face of the enemy is a capital offence, according to Sethra. He wouldn't have been expelled, but rather executed. And for that matter, Kragar has never seemed exactly cowardly to me. Unambitious, yes, but not cowardly. >To be honest I can't picture Kana as Kragar, or vice-versa. But >that's purely by gut-feeling, I can't support with any evidence. :) > Well, since I have no evidence for my theory, not even gut-feeling, you could very well be entirely correct. They seem to have very different personalities - as I mentioned, Kragar appears to be unusually unambitious - but again, that could be due to narrative unreliability, and also the changed circumstances. >I actually wonder if Kragar did something along the lines of "disobeyed >orders to save his unit's lives", ending up in the position of being >officially expelled, but unofficially thanked, as it were. :) > That is in the class of scenarios that I could see resulting in his being cashiered from that particular army, but not expelled from the House. From davids at kithrup.com Tue Nov 4 15:58:37 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 15:58:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: <200311042206.hA4M6G1L072955@shrek.keyway.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Trager wrote: > >Another note on Kragar being a half-breed... when Aliera and Morrolan >are arguing about Norathar's lineage, I seem to recall one of them >making a comment about Kragar's genetics that implies that he was a >full blooded Dragon. Unfortunately, I don't have the book with me >right now, so I can't confirm that. Well, we do have a booksearch now. It was a bit tricky to find the combination of words to get what I think you are remembering, but it would appear to be in /Yendi/, chapter 8: Morrolan: "Have you met Vlad's assistant, Kragar? He's as much of a Dragon --" Aliera (interrupting Morrolan): "That snake? He was thrown out of the House, as you well know." The thing is, we don't know what Morrolan was going to say. It might have been "as you or I" (definitely yes), or it might have been "as Vlad is" (definitely no), or "as Sethra is" (definitely ambiguous, but possibly half-breed). And we don't know if what he *was* going to say was correct or not. Aliera's use of the word "snake" is interesting. It might apply to either Skinter (as a rebel), or a Dragon-Yendi (or Dragon-Jhereg, jhereg are also reptiles) half-breed. > > Now that I think about it, though, I suppose one could make the >case that Aliera would never have done a gene-probe on Kragar, so >both of them could have been mistaken about Kragar's lineage. I >think that's fairly unlikely, though. > Well, Kragar doesn't seem to be present during this exchange, and they don't seem to specifically be referencing a genetic scan, so again, we don't know. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Nov 4 16:09:03 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 16:09:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > > Aliera's use of the word "snake" is interesting. It might apply to > either Skinter (as a rebel), or a Dragon-Yendi (or Dragon-Jhereg, > jhereg are also reptiles) half-breed. It may well be that Dragons don't do field intelligence ops - as you point out above, Pel is good at that. Note that Vlad&Loiosh in _Dragon_ rather easily perform such maneuvers, possibly indicating a lack of defenses. Maybe Kragar's talents in this area were considered prima facie (so to speak) evidence that his genes aren't suitable for the House. Aliera wouldn't call Skinter a snake. She wouldn't pull a grift with him either... From davids at kithrup.com Tue Nov 4 16:15:06 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 16:15:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Malcolm wrote: > >Perhaps it is his nature of being "not there" that is the issue. >Attacking from behind appears to be a common theme as "bad," as even >Aliera and Morrollan agree on that. Perhaps Kragar did just that. >He has a history of attacking from the rear, although perhaps not >intentionally..his opponent simply didn't see him at all. > Hmm. That does seem a little more probable than any of the "military failure" scenarios. It's not that he's cowardly or unable to command, but that he's congenitally unable to fight the way a Dragon should. Now, I can counterargue that Kathana e'Marish'Chala didn't face House expulsion for murdering the Marquis of the Pepperfields, but perhaps Kragar did it a little too often, or too much, for it to be explained away? So, perhaps Kragar kills someone prominent (or several persons), and when brought before the court, swears under the Orb that he issued the challenge out loud, and is telling the truth, and witnesses say that no, the victim never saw him coming, and *they're* telling the truth. So, perhaps Kragar is found "not guilty", but the Dragon Council decides to punish him anyway? (Especially if the victims were *members* of the Dragon Council, now that I think of it...) From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Nov 4 16:18:31 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 19:18:31 -0500 Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb Message-ID: <4ADD4AB3.25977D58.00048EA6@aol.com> Damien Sullivan writes: > On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 04:12:29PM -0600, bonham15 wrote: >> must kill this one... the reason sorcery got so advanced >> was simply this... people had essentially been lifting >> sorcerous weights during the interregnum, trying to do >> fractions of what they could before... the people >> themselves had more knowledge due to the intense period of >> study etc etc... > > You can't kill this because the text is inconsistent. > > Vlad in _Phoenix_ reports Verra as telling him sorcerers > got better with practices. I believe she actually denies any tampering with th Orb (and unfortunately, _Phoenix_ isn't part of the book search yet). >?But in _Paths of the Dead_ Paarfi has the gods upgrading > the Orb. They discuss it; we're never told if they do or not. (And Paarfi practically admits to making up that entire chapter.) In LoCB we watch them receive the news that a healing took place that would have been impossible pre-Interregnum. I can't remember how they reacted. > Maybe that's why sorcery's more powerful -- the load went > down, literally... Cute, but there's too many people in Vlad's time using sorcery at levels equal to or greater than in LoCb. --KG From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Nov 4 16:28:54 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 19:28:54 -0500 Subject: Neil Gaiman at slashdot Message-ID: <0C1FAC55.2074281B.00048EA6@aol.com> Mr. Brust is starting to top-post... the End Is Near.... "Steven Brust" writes: > I've found I've steadily been reading less fiction and more > non-fiction. ?I have no idea if that's related to writing, > or if I'm just getting old enough to not have fun any more. Have you tried Jasper Fforde's novels? Fantasy set on an alternate Earth where literature is taken very seriously... Or Lemony Snicket's Series of Unfortunate Events? (Look for them in the kids' section of the library/bookstore.) To me the narrative voice appears to be inspired by Paarfi and William Goldman (ala _Princess Bride_), while the plots are sorta like Dr. Seuss rewriting Charles Dickens. --KG From davids at kithrup.com Tue Nov 4 16:52:21 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 16:52:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Neil Gaiman at slashdot In-Reply-To: <0C1FAC55.2074281B.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > >Or Lemony Snicket's Series of Unfortunate Events? (Look for >them in the kids' section of the library/bookstore.) To me >the narrative voice appears to be inspired by Paarfi and >William Goldman (ala _Princess Bride_), while the plots are >sorta like Dr. Seuss rewriting Charles Dickens. > Dr. Seuss?? *DR. SEUSS*????? In *my* universe, it's more like Edward Gorey & Charles Addams, (only with more words and fewer pictures), perhaps collaborating with (or channeling) Saki. From ReVibe68 at aol.com Tue Nov 4 17:32:04 2003 From: ReVibe68 at aol.com (ReVibe68 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 20:32:04 EST Subject: A thought concerning Skinter's future... Message-ID: <9b.401ad131.2cd9ad14@aol.com> In a message dated 11/4/03 3:51:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, davids at kithrup.com writes: > No matter what his fuckup was, expulsion from House Dragon itself is > very, very unusual. > > NO its not. Norathar was expelled IIRC because of her parents conduct. Politicians and Diapers have one thing in common. They should be changed regularly and for The Same Reason!!. Truth Is Truth. From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Nov 4 17:41:48 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 20:41:48 -0500 Subject: Neil Gaiman at slashdot Message-ID: <7DF43184.10ED171E.00048EA6@aol.com> David Silberstein writes: > On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > >> Or Lemony Snicket's Series of Unfortunate Events? ?(Look >> for them in the kids' section of the library/bookstore.) >>?To me the narrative voice appears to be inspired by Paarfi >> and William Goldman (ala _Princess Bride_), while the >> plots are sorta like Dr. Seuss rewriting Charles Dickens. > Dr. Seuss?? ?*DR. SEUSS*????? Maybe not the best fit (I did say "sorta"), but there's an sense of innocent playfulness and absurdity about the books. > In *my* universe, it's more like Edward Gorey & Charles > Addams, (only with more words and fewer pictures), perhaps > collaborating with (or channeling) Saki. I'm not familiar with Saki, but Gorey definitely lacks any sort of innocence. He's also far too terse and cryptic, which won't mesh well at all with the Paarfian digressions. Addams would have been a good choice for illustrator, though. --KG From mam at theworld.com Tue Nov 4 18:07:49 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 21:07:49 -0500 Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb In-Reply-To: <20031103033804.29174.qmail@web40111.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Nov 2003, Toubib wrote: #Two words on this, revivification is not strictly #Sorcery, but is a mix of sorcery and elder sorcery. #And apparently you don't need a link to the Orb to #preform it, since I don't think the Necromancer has a #link to the Orb(although you could have joined one of #the House after her arrival). But she was still quite #powerful with out a link. The Necromancer is a demon, and the only difference between a demon and a god in the Dragaera universe is that a demon can be controlled. So she's effectively a god-level character as far as Dragaerans and Easterners are concerned. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mam at theworld.com Tue Nov 4 18:15:43 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 21:15:43 -0500 Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb In-Reply-To: <003501c3a257$92698830$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, bonham15 wrote: #must kill this one... the reason sorcery got so advanced was simply this... #people had essentially been lifting sorcerous weights during the #interregnum, trying to do fractions of what they could before... the people #themselves had more knowledge due to the intense period of study etc etc... See LoCB, page 388-389, Ordwynnac's comment to Kelchor. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From lister at insaneninjahero.com Tue Nov 4 18:20:30 2003 From: lister at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 18:20:30 -0800 Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FA85E6E.7030403@insaneninjahero.com> Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Sun, 2 Nov 2003, Toubib wrote: > > #Two words on this, revivification is not strictly > #Sorcery, but is a mix of sorcery and elder sorcery. > #And apparently you don't need a link to the Orb to > #preform it, since I don't think the Necromancer has a > #link to the Orb(although you could have joined one of > #the House after her arrival). But she was still quite > #powerful with out a link. > > The Necromancer is a demon, and the only difference between a demon and > a god in the Dragaera universe is that a demon can be controlled. So > she's effectively a god-level character as far as Dragaerans and > Easterners are concerned. I thought Gods could be more than one place at once, as well? Kisc From mam at theworld.com Tue Nov 4 18:28:09 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 21:28:09 -0500 Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: #Well, we do have a booksearch now. It was a bit tricky to find the #combination of words to get what I think you are remembering, but #it would appear to be in /Yendi/, chapter 8: # # Morrolan: "Have you met Vlad's assistant, Kragar? He's as much of a # Dragon --" # # Aliera (interrupting Morrolan): "That snake? He was thrown out of # the House, as you well know." [...] #Aliera's use of the word "snake" is interesting. It might apply to #either Skinter (as a rebel), or a Dragon-Yendi (or Dragon-Jhereg, #jhereg are also reptiles) half-breed. Somewhere I know we've seen the word "yendi" used as a epithet, for someone who was not a Yendi. "The yendi ..." [did something or other]. And a yendi is a kind of snake, is it not? -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mam at theworld.com Tue Nov 4 18:31:24 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 21:31:24 -0500 Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb In-Reply-To: <4ADD4AB3.25977D58.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: [Damien Sullivan:] #>?But in _Paths of the Dead_ Paarfi has the gods upgrading #> the Orb. # #They discuss it; we're never told if they do or not. (And #Paarfi practically admits to making up that entire chapter.) Where? #In LoCB we watch them receive the news that a healing took #place that would have been impossible pre-Interregnum. I #can't remember how they reacted. "So then," said Ordwynac, "the purification and enhancement of the Orb was successful." -- LocB 388-89 -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Tue Nov 4 18:32:02 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 21:32:02 -0500 Subject: Neil Gaiman at slashdot In-Reply-To: <0C1FAC55.2074281B.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <0C1FAC55.2074281B.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20031105023202.GA76262@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 07:28:54PM -0500, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > Have you tried Jasper Fforde's novels? Fantasy set on an > alternate Earth where literature is taken very seriously... SECONDED! Without a doubt, 'The Eyre Affair' is the single most entertaining book I've read in years. I picked up a copy at Torcon and took it back to the art show where I was allegedly working. At page 10 I put it down, walked back to the huckster room, and bought everything else they had by Fford. The other two weren't quite as brilliant as 'Eyre', but what *could* be? -- "I try not to sound old and cynical, but it's hard to do that when you're old and cynical." -me From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Nov 4 18:32:26 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 18:32:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sort of open-ended question, but could it be that the whole Kragar-is-invisible thing is just a running joke on Vlad's part? I can only think of one instance (involving an inadvertent teleport) where this is a plot point. Maybe Kragar is flamboyantly noticeable and Vlad likes to amuse himself by pretending otherwise... From frank at exit.com Tue Nov 4 18:36:03 2003 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 18:36:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Neil Gaiman at slashdot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200311050236.hA52a3ao054294@realtime.exit.com> Johne Cook wrote: > With that said, I've been having a /great/ time reading David Brin's _Kiln > People_, which reassures me that there is still some good Sci Fi out there. > He's pulling off the trick of sketching what appears to be a /practically/ > impossible plot and making it not only work, but sing. It inspires me. If > he can animate clay golems, I tell myself I can surely animate real people. Just so you know, there's a lot of kiln going on in that book. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From mam at theworld.com Tue Nov 4 18:48:37 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 21:48:37 -0500 Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: #Sort of open-ended question, but could it be that the whole #Kragar-is-invisible thing is just a running joke on Vlad's part? #I can only think of one instance (involving an inadvertent teleport) #where this is a plot point. Somewhere Kragar saves Vlad from an assassination attempt. Vlad had told him to stay away, and he hadn't seen him there, and neither had the would-be killer. Vlad -- in his own report, of course -- uses this episode later to make a point to Kragar about being unable to escape one's House heritage, saying something like, "You acted like a Dragon. The only reason a Jhereg will disobey his boss is to kill him, not to save him." -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue Nov 4 18:53:01 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 18:53:01 -0800 Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb In-Reply-To: <4ADD4AB3.25977D58.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <4ADD4AB3.25977D58.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20031105025301.GA26843@ofb.net> On Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 07:18:31PM -0500, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > Maybe that's why sorcery's more powerful -- the load went > > down, literally... > > Cute, but there's too many people in Vlad's time using > sorcery at levels equal to or greater than in LoCb. Not if floating castles were taking up most of the energy, and there's only one now. Oh, LoCB. I wasn't talking about LoCB, I was talking about Vlad's time vs. pre-Interregnum. -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue Nov 4 18:53:39 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 18:53:39 -0800 Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb In-Reply-To: <3FA85E6E.7030403@insaneninjahero.com> References: <3FA85E6E.7030403@insaneninjahero.com> Message-ID: <20031105025339.GB26843@ofb.net> On Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 06:20:30PM -0800, Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert wrote: > I thought Gods could be more than one place at once, as well? Gods *and* demons can be in more than one place at once. -xx- Damien X-) From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue Nov 4 19:01:42 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 19:01:42 -0800 Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031105030142.GC26843@ofb.net> On Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 09:28:09PM -0500, Mark A Mandel wrote: > Somewhere I know we've seen the word "yendi" used as a epithet, for > someone who was not a Yendi. "The yendi ..." [did something or other]. > And a yendi is a kind of snake, is it not? Aliera talking about Dolivar in _Jhereg_, I think. -xx- Damien X-) From frank at exit.com Tue Nov 4 19:09:14 2003 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 19:09:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Neil Gaiman at slashdot In-Reply-To: <20031104152842.GA23118@ofb.net> Message-ID: <200311050309.hA539EDw054749@realtime.exit.com> Damien Sullivan wrote: > I looked at those. I think it's because it's not up to snuff. I didn't look at those and I would tend to agree. Pretty much by definition. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Nov 4 21:43:57 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 21:43:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > #Sort of open-ended question, but could it be that the whole > #Kragar-is-invisible thing is just a running joke on Vlad's part? > #I can only think of one instance (involving an inadvertent teleport) > #where this is a plot point. > > Somewhere Kragar saves Vlad from an assassination attempt. Vlad had told > him to stay away, and he hadn't seen him there, and neither had the > would-be killer. Vlad -- in his own report, of course -- uses this > episode later to make a point to Kragar about being unable to escape > one's House heritage, saying something like, "You acted like a Dragon. > The only reason a Jhereg will disobey his boss is to kill him, not to > save him." That would be _Jhereg_ I think - Vlad's meeting with the Demon where he says he won't sully Morollan's honor. I don't see this as dispositive of the Kragar-actually-visible theory, though obviously even less positive. From vtaltos at earthlink.net Tue Nov 4 22:28:27 2003 From: vtaltos at earthlink.net (Malcolm) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 01:28:27 -0500 Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Vlad's meeting with the Demon, Kragar's appearance when they investigate Loraan's "stash" .. I'd have to say that Kragar's "invisibility" is definitely not Vlad's humor, but more a real attribute .. -----Original Message----- From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 12:44 AM To: Mark A Mandel Cc: Dragaera List Subject: Re: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > #Sort of open-ended question, but could it be that the whole > #Kragar-is-invisible thing is just a running joke on Vlad's part? > #I can only think of one instance (involving an inadvertent teleport) > #where this is a plot point. > > Somewhere Kragar saves Vlad from an assassination attempt. Vlad had told > him to stay away, and he hadn't seen him there, and neither had the > would-be killer. Vlad -- in his own report, of course -- uses this > episode later to make a point to Kragar about being unable to escape > one's House heritage, saying something like, "You acted like a Dragon. > The only reason a Jhereg will disobey his boss is to kill him, not to > save him." That would be _Jhereg_ I think - Vlad's meeting with the Demon where he says he won't sully Morollan's honor. I don't see this as dispositive of the Kragar-actually-visible theory, though obviously even less positive. From davids at kithrup.com Tue Nov 4 23:34:06 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 23:34:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: A thought concerning Skinter's future... In-Reply-To: <9b.401ad131.2cd9ad14@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 ReVibe68 at aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 11/4/03 3:51:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, >davids at kithrup.com writes: > >> No matter what his fuckup was, expulsion from House Dragon >> itself is very, very unusual. > >NO its not. Because of course, we always generalize from one example. Or in this case, two examples. >Norathar was expelled IIRC because of her parents conduct. Rather, her mother's alleged conduct. From mark_englehart at cox.net Tue Nov 4 23:35:22 2003 From: mark_englehart at cox.net (Mark Englehart) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 23:35:22 -0800 Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20031104232345.00a21010@pop.west.cox.net> At 04:15 PM 11/4/2003 -0800, David Silberstein wrote: >Now, I can counterargue that Kathana e'Marish'Chala didn't face House >expulsion for murdering the Marquis of the Pepperfields, but perhaps >Kragar did it a little too often, or too much, for it to be explained >away? Actually I can't see Kathana facing expulsion for her actions. Yes, she committed murder, but she didn't do it out of cowardice (i.e., she didn't think she could take Pepperfield in a fair fight) she did it in the heat of anger. An impropriety to be sure, but completely forgivable for a young Dragon, especially if she takes responsibility for her actions, which she did. Now if the problem could have been resolved by her expulsion, I would expect it to have happened; but only during the reign of a decadent Phoenix or Yendi. From mark_englehart at cox.net Tue Nov 4 23:48:51 2003 From: mark_englehart at cox.net (Mark Englehart) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 23:48:51 -0800 Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20031104233909.00a20710@pop.west.cox.net> At 04:09 PM 11/4/2003 -0800, Philip Hart wrote: >Aliera wouldn't call Skinter a snake. She wouldn't pull a grift with him >either... I have to find this one of the most compelling arguments. Sethra the Younger could be forgiven for her plotting in Yendi because she was still playing within the rules: she was trying to get a good position within the empire, she was not acting against the empire itself. Fighting against the re-establishment of the true empire is treason. Aliera would not deal with a traitor and Morrolan would not allow one in his house. From davids at kithrup.com Wed Nov 5 00:02:46 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 00:02:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20031104233909.00a20710@pop.west.cox.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Mark Englehart wrote: >At 04:09 PM 11/4/2003 -0800, Philip Hart wrote: > >>Aliera wouldn't call Skinter a snake. She wouldn't pull a >>grift with him either... Do you know, I'm not sure I understand what "pull a grift" means in this context, nor when Aliera did so with Kragar. >I have to find this one of the most compelling arguments. Sethra the >Younger could be forgiven for her plotting in Yendi because she was >still playing within the rules: she was trying to get a good position >within the empire, she was not acting against the empire itself. >Fighting against the re-establishment of the true empire is treason. > If the Empire doesn't exist yet, is it really treason? It's not like he swore any oaths of fealty to Zerika that he's going back on. > >Aliera would not deal with a traitor and Morrolan would not allow one >in his house. > *cough*. Adron, rebel against the Emperor, and literally destroyer of the Empire, aka Aliera's dear daddy & Morrolan's hero. Mario, murderer of the Emperor, and accessory to the destruction of the Empire, aka Aliera's lover, and Morrolan's guest (although possibly without Morrolan's knowledge). From davids at kithrup.com Wed Nov 5 00:13:32 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 00:13:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > Vlad -- in his own report, of course -- uses this episode later to >make a point to Kragar about being unable to escape one's House >heritage, saying something like, "You acted like a Dragon. The only >reason a Jhereg will disobey his boss is to kill him, not to save >him." > [Book search, supplemented with the book itself:] /Jhereg/, chap. 14 "To save my life, you had to disobey my orders. That isn't a Jhereg thing to do at all.the only time a Jhereg will disobey orders is when he's planning to kill his boss. But a Dragon, Kragar, a Dragon will sometimes find that the that the only way to fulfill his commander's wishes is to violate his commands, and do what has to be done, and risk court-martial if he has to." Somehow, I think that's Vlad being unreliable, perhaps for the sake of simplification. We've seen that Dragaerans can be a lot more complex than he gives them credit for with the above, and the idea that all Dragons would value loyalty over strict obedience, and a Jhereg never would, strikes me as being inconsistent with that sort of complexity. But then, this was in the first book, and we know Steve was still working things out. From mark_englehart at cox.net Wed Nov 5 00:16:23 2003 From: mark_englehart at cox.net (Mark Englehart) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 00:16:23 -0800 Subject: Neil Gaiman at slashdot In-Reply-To: <20031104135314.GA45113@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <002c01c3a27b$4763b620$fe00000a@steve> <20031104011824.6F8F526C2D@boredom.ennui.org> <3FA70168.1010805@insaneninjahero.com> <002c01c3a27b$4763b620$fe00000a@steve> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20031104234943.00a23ec0@pop.west.cox.net> >On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 06:28:03PM -0800, Steven Brust wrote: > > > I've found I've steadily been reading less fiction and more non-fiction. I > > have no idea if that's related to writing, or if I'm just getting old > enough > > to not have fun any more. I recently saw a quote from a stand-up (I have no idea which one) "In the sixties everyone took acid to make the world look weird. Now the world *is* weird and everyone takes Prozac to make it look normal." I said that to say this... I too have been reading less fiction and more non-fiction of late. I wonder if some of this has to do with the times we find ourselves living in. When the truth was reasonably easy to find, we could go along certain that the world was progressing normally along its bumpy and somewhat crooked road and we could dedicate time to fun. Now we have to spend our time digging for the truth and filling our heads with facts so that we can filter the daily dose of lies and find the truth behind it. Then again, maybe not... Maybe it is all about getting old, taking responsibility and not getting to have fun anymore. Naah! I am fortunate I still have kids (and a wife) who like to have me read to them at bed time. Otherwise I might not be getting any fiction at all. I just discovered the Susan Cooper "Dark is Rising" sequence (yes, I know they came out before I was born) and am loving them. From TimN at rcn.com Wed Nov 5 00:38:35 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 03:38:35 -0500 Subject: Neil Gaiman at slashdot References: <20031104032130.BCC3426C2D@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <004701c3a378$45396c20$d916fea9@ananda> My shoes are too tight, and I have forgotten how to dance. - LM ----- Original Message ----- From: roger n. tospott To: SKZB List Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 10:21 PM Subject: Re: Neil Gaiman at slashdot > Steven Brust writes: > I've found I've steadily been reading less fiction and more non-fiction. I > have no idea if that's related to writing, or if I'm just getting old enough > to not have fun any more. > > Sounds like somebody's got a case of the Mondays. > > rone > -- > "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" > "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" > -- RICHH From mark_englehart at cox.net Wed Nov 5 01:10:41 2003 From: mark_englehart at cox.net (Mark Englehart) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 01:10:41 -0800 Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.6.0.20031104233909.00a20710@pop.west.cox.net> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20031105005046.00a111b0@pop.west.cox.net> At 12:02 AM 11/5/2003 -0800, David Silberstein wrote: >Do you know, I'm not sure I understand what "pull a grift" means in >this context, nor when Aliera did so with Kragar. "Grift" means con or scam and I assume the original reference was to the ending of Jhereg where everyone plays their parts to "sting" the bad guy. >*cough*. Adron, rebel against the Emperor, and literally destroyer of >the Empire, aka Aliera's dear daddy & Morrolan's hero. Mario, >murderer of the Emperor, and accessory to the destruction of the >Empire, aka Aliera's lover, and Morrolan's guest (although possibly >without Morrolan's knowledge). I think you may be hitting a block thinking in Earther terms. IMHO, on Dragaera, at least in the Empire, the devotion is not to "King and Country" but to "God and Cycle." Adron thought he had sufficient evidence that the Cycle had turned, therefore it was his duty to the Empire to try and replace the Emperor. Adron is remembered poorly by history because he tried to use Elder Sorcery against the Orb, not for his rebellion. Mario's assassination of the emperor, while unique, would not have been horrific. Jhereg murder people, emperors die, and if the Orb has stopped protecting you, then it's saying it was time for it to move on. The people who disapprove of Mario are those who disapprove of murder as a tactic to begin with. --Mark From pulmon at comcast.net Tue Nov 4 17:34:07 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 20:34:07 -0500 Subject: A thought concerning Skinter's future... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <261AE64E-0F30-11D8-8183-0003938F1608@comcast.net> Actually, the inability to be perceived by others seems like witchcraft to me. Imagine that Krager pissed off a witch (maybe one of Morrolan's which could explain his animus) and now is living out his fate... On Nov 4, 2003, at 3:48 PM, David Silberstein wrote: > On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: > >> On Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 01:05:28AM -0800, David Silberstein >> wrote: > >>> On 3 Nov 2003, Jag wrote: > > [Skinter -> Kragar, perhaps] > >>>> It is a rather amusing notion, but I believe I've found a flaw in >>>> it. >>>> It was mentioned that due to Kragar's natural ability/curse of being >>>> unnoticed, he was unable to lead in battle, and that was somehow >>>> related >>>> to him being thrown out of his original House. > >>> Yes, but that wasn't some ex cathedra explanation, that was Kragar's >>> own off-the-cuff explanation - which, I think, even Vlad thought was >>> more than a little fishy. I won't absolutely accept it until I see >>> Morrolan or Sethra mentioning it. >>> >>> And thinking about it, it doesn't really make sense. How in hell >>> would he get a command unless he impressed his superiors with his >>> ability to be a commander? They don't just throw soldiers in the >>> field and tell one of them "Hey, you. You're in charge. If you fuck >>> up, you're outta the House." (And how would they have noticed him to >>> do so?) >> >> Actually, they do -- with nobility, at least in our own feudal >> societies. When you have a heriditary noble in charge, you >> pretty much have to hope that he knows his stuff or else knows >> enough to leave it to those who do. > > Well, perhaps. Assuming he's had this "fade" thing going on for his > whole life, I can see him setting up a trusted liutenant to relay all > his orders, and perhaps, when this trusted liutenant gets killed, he > can't cut it? > >> I can easily see Kragar as the son of someone important, expected >> to be a military leader for that reason alone, and given various >> commands that he manages not to entirely fuck up until he's got the >> chance to *really* get in trouble. >> > > Still "trouble", in the military, usually means death, or possibly > forced retirement from the army itself. Assuming he didn't do > something that the military would deem deserving of execution, > incompetence alone would probably just get him cashiered. > > No matter what his fuckup was, expulsion from House Dragon itself is > very, very unusual. > > Hmm. Now I am reminded of my previous Kragar theory, which is that > he's a half-breed mixed-House of some sort. > > > http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1:msp:6162: > jchnmcgmchpbemkjfpnp > From scs at di.org Wed Nov 5 04:36:13 2003 From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 07:36:13 -0500 Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031105123613.GB77636@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Wed, Nov 05, 2003 at 12:13:32AM -0800, David Silberstein wrote: > Somehow, I think that's Vlad being unreliable, perhaps for the sake of > simplification. We've seen that Dragaerans can be a lot more complex > than he gives them credit for with the above, and the idea that all > Dragons would value loyalty over strict obedience, and a Jhereg never > would, strikes me as being inconsistent with that sort of complexity. > But then, this was in the first book, and we know Steve was still > working things out. The author would probably prefer to say "Vlad was young, and hadn't had much of a chance to work it all out." :-) -- "I try not to sound old and cynical, but it's hard to do that when you're old and cynical." -me From bio_phy at hotmail.com Wed Nov 5 07:27:45 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 09:27:45 -0600 Subject: Neil Gaiman at slashdot Message-ID: The more "real" the world gets, the more I crave escapist fantasies and adventures. If I learn something about reality and myself along the way to add to my bag of tricks in Real Life?, so much the better, but I'm really looking for something to take me away for a little while. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ "There are only three rules to writing a novel; unfortunately, no one knows what they are." --Somerset Maugham >Now we have to spend our time digging for the truth and filling >our heads with facts so that we can filter the daily dose of lies and find >the >truth behind it. _________________________________________________________________ Crave some Miles Davis or Grateful Dead? Your old favorites are always playing on MSN Radio Plus. Trial month free! http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio From warlord at dragon.com Wed Nov 5 08:31:48 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 11:31:48 -0500 Subject: Neil Gaiman at slashdot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Johne Cook [mailto:bio_phy at hotmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 10:28 AM > Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Neil Gaiman at slashdot > > > The more "real" the world gets, the more I crave escapist fantasies and > adventures. If I learn something about reality and myself along > the way to > add to my bag of tricks in Real Life?, so much the better, but I'm really > looking for something to take me away for a little while. > > johne (phy) cook > wisconsin, usa > > personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com > aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ > stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ > > "There are only three rules to writing a novel; unfortunately, no > one knows > what they are." > --Somerset Maugham > >Now we have to spend our time digging for the truth and filling > >our heads with facts so that we can filter the daily dose of > lies and find > >the > >truth behind it. > > _________________________________________________________________ I used to say, "I read fiction because if I wanted real life then I would watch the news." *shakes head* Now it is the other way around. A sad and true dipiction of todays "scare 'em now and report later" media styles that I deplore because the number of people viewing is FAR more important than what is being reported. Reporting for media share sucks. There is more wisdom and truth in written fiction than in all TV reporting combined. Come to think of it, BUFFY TVS has more too. W "I have a soapbox RIGHT here, and I'm NOT afraid to use it." - Me From casca913 at gbronline.com Wed Nov 5 09:35:00 2003 From: casca913 at gbronline.com (Charlie Smith) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 11:35:00 -0600 Subject: Retreat to an earlier thread of thought Message-ID: <005e01c3a3c3$42a8e120$71d1fdd8@pentium4> I realize that we talked about this much earlier (read here maybe two weeks ago) but while re-reading Issola the thought popped into my head. After having this brain-flatulence, I went back to past message and found no reference to the idea I had. It concerns what the next book might be about. The course he takes in regard to the future of the Vladiad is , of course, anyone guess. So while reading I thought of the "mysterious" circumstances involved in the LAST assault of the Jenoine. The Assault on Dzur Mountain that we hear references of on perhaps 4 occasions, total. That was my thought for the future book entitled, Dzur. This would almost fit perfectly with the last book since we just took our absence from the Jenoine and another story with them would be fresh in our heads. . . Unless he doesn't want too much Jenoine at one time. Who knows? Maybe not even Steve... -- "I must make a point of telling Sethra not to underrate the power of the hissy-cow" -- Vlad Taltos, How to kill a god in 5 moves or less From casca913 at gbronline.com Wed Nov 5 09:52:09 2003 From: casca913 at gbronline.com (Charlie Smith) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 11:52:09 -0600 Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb References: Message-ID: <008f01c3a3c5$adadf710$71d1fdd8@pentium4> >On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > >[Damien Sullivan:] >#> But in _Paths of the Dead_ Paarfi has the gods upgrading >#> the Orb. ># >#They discuss it; we're never told if they do or not. (And >#Paarfi practically admits to making up that entire chapter.) > >Where? I believe he is referring to PotD, Book 2, Chapter 18, Page 177 In which Paarfi explains that he cannot know what EXACTLY took place in the halls of the dead and the "Thoughts" of the gods, but he has in on reliable source through certain monks who commune with the gods, priests who intercede with the gods, and sorcerers who have made pacts with the gods that everything he describes in accurate in the conclusion being accurate. More over the statement of professed falsehood does not stand up for he states that the Orb was present and that the Orb doesn't forget. . . Which ties into a previous line of thought involving whether the Orb remembers everything that every Emperor and empress before has thought or done. Paarfi may be mistaken, of course, but from what we know of the way things turn out in this particular universe, I find it slightly unlikely, while leaving the room for doubt. From davids at kithrup.com Wed Nov 5 11:40:58 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 11:40:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20031105005046.00a111b0@pop.west.cox.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Nov 2003, Mark Englehart wrote: >At 12:02 AM 11/5/2003 -0800, David Silberstein wrote: > >>Do you know, I'm not sure I understand what "pull a grift" means in >>this context, nor when Aliera did so with Kragar. > >"Grift" means con or scam and I assume the original reference was >to the ending of Jhereg where everyone plays their parts to "sting" >the bad guy. Ah. I had forgotten that Kragar was indeed part of that. >>*cough*. Adron, rebel against the Emperor, and literally destroyer of >>the Empire, aka Aliera's dear daddy & Morrolan's hero. Mario, >>murderer of the Emperor, and accessory to the destruction of the >>Empire, aka Aliera's lover, and Morrolan's guest (although possibly >>without Morrolan's knowledge). > >I think you may be hitting a block thinking in Earther terms. >IMHO, on Dragaera, at least in the Empire, the devotion is not to >"King and Country" but to "God and Cycle." Adron thought he had >sufficient evidence that the Cycle had turned, therefore it was his >duty to the Empire to try and replace the Emperor. If Adron thought the Cycle had turned, *why* would he have wanted to use Elder Sorcery against the Orb? It should not have been necessary; his military victory would have proven that the Cycle had turned, and he would have gained the Orb *legitimately*. > Adron is remembered poorly by history because he tried to use Elder >Sorcery against the Orb, not for his rebellion. Indeed. Yet he's Morrolan's hero, and Aliera thinks he was a great daddy. Regarding Skinter, now: During the Interregnum, the Empire (by definition) did not yet exist. And thinking as a Dragon, it is force of arms that will determine whether the Empire *will* exist, and who will be in charge once it does. We the readers sympathize with the characters we know, and we see the Sethra & the Gods granting the Orb to Zerika, and we see her claim as being the one with the greatest legitimacy. But if Skinter wrests the Orb from her, by whatever means, then he would have been just as legitimate, and with much of the infrastructure of the Empire already in place. My point is, Skinter is no worse than Adron, in that both wanted to make a grab for the Orb, and both failed. I don't see Morrolan or Aliera despising him *just* because he desired to be Emperor, and was willing to fight by whatever means to attain that goal. That is, after all, the nature of the heart of the Dragon. >Mario's assassination of the emperor, while unique, would not have >been horrific. Jhereg murder people, emperors die, and if the Orb >has stopped protecting you, then it's saying it was time for it to >move on. The people who disapprove of Mario are those who disapprove >of murder as a tactic to begin with. And if Skinter had been able to kill or capture Zerika, well, as you say: "emperors die, and if the Orb has stopped protecting you, then it's saying it was time for it to move on". Again, Dragons understand the desire to win, which is exactly Skinter's goal. Aliera & Morrolan can certainly understand Skinter's motivation, and see that it is the same as Adron's. In fact, the only reason that I can think of that Morrolan would oppose Skinter is simply that he found himself allied himself with Zerika, and later befriended her. Morrolan might duel with Skinter, but I don't think he would otherwise reject him as a guest, assuming the Empire had in fact granted Skinter amnesty. From davids at kithrup.com Wed Nov 5 11:44:36 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 11:44:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Retreat to an earlier thread of thought In-Reply-To: <005e01c3a3c3$42a8e120$71d1fdd8@pentium4> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Nov 2003, Charlie Smith wrote: > >The course he takes in regard to the future of the Vladiad is , of >course, anyone guess. So while reading I thought of the "mysterious" >circumstances involved in the LAST assault of the Jenoine. The >Assault on Dzur Mountain that we hear references of on perhaps 4 >occasions, total. That was my thought for the future book entitled, >Dzur. But as I am sure you will recall, Vlad was not present at that event. Although I admit it would be interesting to read a tale from Sethra's POV, or Tukko's POV, or from the Jenoine's POV, or from Dzur Mountain's POV. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Nov 5 11:52:40 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 11:52:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Retreat to an earlier thread of thought In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > On Wed, 5 Nov 2003, Charlie Smith wrote: > > > > >The course he takes in regard to the future of the Vladiad is , of > >course, anyone guess. So while reading I thought of the "mysterious" > >circumstances involved in the LAST assault of the Jenoine. The > >Assault on Dzur Mountain that we hear references of on perhaps 4 > >occasions, total. That was my thought for the future book entitled, > >Dzur. > > But as I am sure you will recall, Vlad was not present at that event. > > Although I admit it would be interesting to read a tale from Sethra's > POV, or Tukko's POV, or from the Jenoine's POV, or from Dzur > Mountain's POV. I'd be more interested in a story from Loiosh's POV. I don't want to hear Sethra's POV, frankly - I don't think she could be presented convincingly. Anyway, maybe Vlad could be plot B, sent to do some task for a friend of Kiera's. I'm guessing that the Task Force is involved in procuring some artifact to help Sethra - what else could they contribute? - and perhaps Vlad has a hand in that (once again). From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Nov 5 12:00:52 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 12:00:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > If Adron thought the Cycle had turned, *why* would he have wanted to > use Elder Sorcery against the Orb? It should not have been necessary; > his military victory would have proven that the Cycle had turned, and > he would have gained the Orb *legitimately*. He was in a hurry to fix Tortaalik's mistakes before they exploded - he wasn't sure that T would in fact yield facing military defeat - he didn't actually have an army capable of taking the Orb anyway. > Regarding Skinter, now: During the Interregnum, the Empire (by > definition) did not yet exist. And thinking as a Dragon, it is force > of arms that will determine whether the Empire *will* exist, and who > will be in charge once it does. [lots of indiscriminate snippage] To my mind, Skinter's rise is perfectly acceptable - his continued opposition to Zerika after she returned with the Orb is not. He's obliged at least to take her claim to the throne seriously. And the events at the end of _TLoCB_ seem to indicate that Skinter's going beyond the pale still further. Adron acted out of provoked rage in an exigent situation, having accomplished great things for the Empire. Skinter's not comparable. From warlord at dragon.com Wed Nov 5 12:29:09 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 15:29:09 -0500 Subject: Ode to Loiosh (aka Bored at Work) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Flying Caustic jhereg ( With all due apologies to, well, everybody ) Well I saw the thing under an orange sky It had one sharp beak and a gleam in his eye I commenced to sharing a psionic link Of a caustic jhereg communicatin' with me It was a sharp-beaked, keen-eyed, Flying Caustic jhereg (sharp-beaked, keen-eyed, Flying Caustic jhereg) sharp-beaked, keen-eyed, Flying Caustic jhereg Sure looks mean to me. (gleaming eye?) He lit on my shoulder tail encircling my neck I said Mr Caustic Jhereg please don't poison... ECCK! I experienced in my mind a psionic chuckle I wouldn't poison you 'cos it's too much trouble. It was a sharp-beaked, keen-eyed, Flying Caustic jhereg sharp-beaked, keen-eyed, Flying Caustic jhereg sharp-beaked, keen-eyed, Flying Caustic jhereg Sure looked mean to me (sharp beaked?) I said, "Mr. Caustic jhereg tell me what's your line," he said, "it's irritating Vlad, and it sure is fine!" But that's not reason why I came to land, I wanna sing backup in an iconoclastic band. Re-gress my soul, bank and roll, Flying Caustic jhereg Over sowed, under code, Flying Caustic jhereg (He doesn't WEAR shorts) Flyin' Caustic jhereg Sure looks exposed to me. He released my neck and he started to croon I was tapping my toes it was a catchy tune I didn't understand all the lyrics he said, Mentioning Ecclesiastes which I haven't read. Re-gress my soul, bank and roll, Flying Caustic jhereg Over sowed, under code, Flying Caustic jhereg (He NEEDS to wear shorts) Flyin' Caustic jhereg Looks WAY exposed to me. Well he glided away and then what do you know I caught him last night during the lounge act show. He was a big distraction, bitin' a dude in the neck while Vlad left Valabars and skipping the check. Takilla! ( R.I.P. Sheb Wooly, and we thank you ) Warlord From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Nov 5 13:19:36 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 13:19:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Retreat to an earlier thread of thought Message-ID: <200311052119.hA5LJag16934@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> David Silberstein wrote: > Although I admit it would be interesting to read a tale ... from Dzur > Mountain's POV. "I was stepped on a great deal today. Some tekla of a Dzurlord thought to take on my other half. Idiot. And this afternoon the enclouding was thin enough to grant my upper portions a bit of warmth. That was nice." Um, okay, maybe that wasn't what was meant....:) Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From bonham15 at cox.net Wed Nov 5 14:03:24 2003 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 16:03:24 -0600 Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) References: Message-ID: <004b01c3a3e8$a2695ca0$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> and if the cycle *had* turned to dragon he would have succeeded. the cycle did indeed turn, but it was a decadent phoenix, and phoenix was still up... end of the 17th cycle is a double whammy o' phoenix. andy > > > On Wed, 5 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > > If Adron thought the Cycle had turned, *why* would he have wanted to > > use Elder Sorcery against the Orb? It should not have been necessary; > > his military victory would have proven that the Cycle had turned, and > > he would have gained the Orb *legitimately*. > > He was in a hurry to fix Tortaalik's mistakes before they exploded - he > wasn't sure that T would in fact yield facing military defeat - he didn't > actually have an army capable of taking the Orb anyway. > > > Regarding Skinter, now: During the Interregnum, the Empire (by > > definition) did not yet exist. And thinking as a Dragon, it is force > > of arms that will determine whether the Empire *will* exist, and who > > will be in charge once it does. > [lots of indiscriminate snippage] > > To my mind, Skinter's rise is perfectly acceptable - his continued > opposition to Zerika after she returned with the Orb is not. He's > obliged at least to take her claim to the throne seriously. > > And the events at the end of _TLoCB_ seem to indicate that Skinter's > going beyond the pale still further. Adron acted out of provoked rage > in an exigent situation, having accomplished great things for the Empire. > Skinter's not comparable. > From kknolte at ecity.net Wed Nov 5 09:56:41 2003 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 18:56:41 +0100 Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) References: <20031104092545.GE31603@infodancer.org> <20031104212747.GC29993@infodancer.org> <6.0.0.22.0.20031104153142.01be7cb0@kemenel.org> Message-ID: <3FA939D7.4AF8@ecity.net> Iain E. Davis wrote: > That's what I was thinking. Or at least perceived cowardice. Definitions > of cowardice may vary. > > To be honest I can't picture Kana as Kragar, or vice-versa. But that's > purely by gut-feeling, I can't support with any evidence. :) > > I actually wonder if Kragar did something along the lines of "disobeyed > orders to save his unit's lives", ending up in the position of being > officially expelled, but unofficially thanked, as it were. :) OTOH, I don't remember any textevd that Kragar is a coward in any way except not wanting to give orders (and presumably take responsibility for them), and Aliera certainly doesn't have a high opinion of Kragar (that yendi) - and since Vlad tells Kragar that it's genetically determined that a Dragon like Kragar will disobey orders if his commander is being an idiot, Dragons like Aliera presumably don't necessarily consider disobeying orders necessarily awful. So maybe he did something like ordering a truly stupid assault (say like Pickett's Charge at Gettysburg) in the first battle he was an officer in? For a House where everyone wants to be Warlord, perhaps such horrible tactical sense is enough to get thrown out. Doesn't quite explain the yendi reference, unless Kragar said that a revered general had ordered him psionically to make the charge, the general died in the battle, and since all Dragons know that revered generals of their House could never be that stupid, it's obvious that not only is Kragar tactically incompetent, but he tries to blame his failings on his much smarter superiors? From kknolte at ecity.net Wed Nov 5 10:13:17 2003 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 19:13:17 +0100 Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) References: Message-ID: <3FA93DBA.FFC@ecity.net> David Silberstein wrote: > If Adron thought the Cycle had turned, *why* would he have wanted to > use Elder Sorcery against the Orb? It should not have been necessary; > his military victory would have proven that the Cycle had turned, and > he would have gained the Orb *legitimately*. That's kinda why I'm wondering if you assume the Orb had it's 'software' improved, if that means the Cycle could similarly have it's 'software' 'improved'. Or at least that someone could think the Cycle could be hacked. Kinda thinking that a) one can successfully rebel against the Emperor only after the Cycle has changed, since before then the Orb protects the Emperor b) trying to hack the Orb to get rid of that feature while it's attuned to an Emperor probably isn't a good idea, since the Emperor is likely to notice and squash whoever's doing it. c) OTOH, I don't remember any suggestion that the Cycle has anyone bound to it to protect it, so d) hack an unprotected Cycle, and if it works, the Orb stops protecting the Emperor and you can take over. A Dragon might consider that a rather nice bit of strategic thinking, and so admirable. Thoughts? From corwin at mpls.cx Wed Nov 5 17:34:11 2003 From: corwin at mpls.cx (Corwin Brust) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 19:34:11 -0600 Subject: Retreat to an earlier thread of thought In-Reply-To: <005e01c3a3c3$42a8e120$71d1fdd8@pentium4> References: <005e01c3a3c3$42a8e120$71d1fdd8@pentium4> Message-ID: <3FA9A513.9010001@mpls.cx> Charlie Smith wrote: >-- "I must make a point of telling Sethra not to underrate the power of the hissy-cow" >-- Vlad Taltos, How to kill a god in 5 moves or less > Sorry, this was buggin' me. >5 moves or /fewer/ From mam at theworld.com Wed Nov 5 18:01:17 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 21:01:17 -0500 Subject: Ode to Loiosh (aka Bored at Work) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: YIKES!!!! May I post this to the rec.music.filk newsgroup, with due credit of course? Or you may wish to. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From davids at kithrup.com Wed Nov 5 20:59:56 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 20:59:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: A thought concerning Skinter's future... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One last notion in favor of this theory, and then I'll be quiet. Perhaps. For a while. On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: >So I wondered: what will happen to K?na, also called Skinter, >after he loses? We know he's going to, of course. > [snippage] > >Well, it occurs to me that his House might be sufficiently annoyed >with him that they might well eject him from it. And either the >Empire or the House might wish to punish him for his overreaching >arrogance by somehow cursing him (using sorcery or elder sorcery or >necromancy, or whatever), by causing him to become a complete >non-entity, well-nigh invisible. > In addition (or instead), they might inflict this upon Skinter as a political precaution. Consider: he styled himself as Emperor, and had several hundred thousand troops loyal to him, and controlled a fairly large area of land. Even if he himself agrees to give his parole, perhaps someone else might wish to rebel in his name, use him as a figurehead, or otherwise stir up trouble. So they do something to him which (a) makes him physically and psychically null, so that he's no longer even the least bit magnetic or charismatic; indeed, barely recognizable, and (b) makes him no longer a "real" Dragon. Who would rally to someone Houseless? How would he hold anyone's respect if they find it hard to remember that he's in the same *room*? It is better, after all, than imprisoning him for life incommunicado with an iron mask locked around his head, yet achieves largely the same goals... From casca913 at gbronline.com Wed Nov 5 21:16:12 2003 From: casca913 at gbronline.com (Charlie Smith) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 23:16:12 -0600 Subject: Retreat to an earlier thread of thought References: <005e01c3a3c3$42a8e120$71d1fdd8@pentium4> <3FA9A47E.7040909@meta-forge.com> Message-ID: <002901c3a425$19973130$89570945@pentium4> > > > Charlie Smith wrote: > > >-- "I must make a point of telling Sethra not to underrate the power of the hissy-cow" > >-- Vlad Taltos, How to kill a god in 5 moves or less > > > Sorry, this was buggin' me. > > >5 moves or /fewer/ > > Heh, My grammar shall be corrected. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Nov 5 22:19:12 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 22:19:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: A thought concerning Skinter's future... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > > One last notion in favor of this theory, and then I'll be quiet. > Perhaps. For a while. > > On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > > >So I wondered: what will happen to K?na, also called Skinter, > >after he loses? We know he's going to, of course. He's going go down fighting, have his head handed to his cousin in the Bastille, or die duelling someone from a long list. Actually SKZB probably has something messier in mind for him, like angering Orlaan or getting eaten by an angry god. Actually, maybe Kana comes out on top and we learn that Paarfi has to go away for awhile to recover from too much stardom. I think what will happen to Skinter's cousin is more interesting, as she's more interesting and could be useful to the Empire. From warlord at dragon.com Thu Nov 6 06:12:17 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 09:12:17 -0500 Subject: Ode to Loiosh (aka Bored at Work) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm not a regular usenet reader, so please feel free post it. You really think they will like it ? W > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark A Mandel [mailto:mam at theworld.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 9:01 PM > To: Warlord > Cc: Dragaera List > Subject: Re: Ode to Loiosh (aka Bored at Work) > > > YIKES!!!! > > May I post this to the rec.music.filk newsgroup, with due credit of > course? Or you may wish to. > > -- Mark A. Mandel > http://cracksandshards.com > a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website > > > > From mam at theworld.com Thu Nov 6 14:22:34 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 17:22:34 -0500 Subject: Ode to Loiosh (aka Bored at Work) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Nov 2003, Warlord wrote: #I'm not a regular usenet reader, so please feel free #post it. You really think they will like it ? Abso-friggin'-lutely. -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname http://world.std.com/~mam/filk.html Now on the Filker's Bardic Webring! From books at bofh.com Thu Nov 6 23:58:43 2003 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 00:58:43 -0700 Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031107075842.GA2735@bofh.com> On Wed, Nov 05, 2003 at 01:28:27AM -0500, Malcolm wrote: > Vlad's meeting with the Demon, Kragar's appearance when they investigate > Loraan's "stash" .. I'd have to say that Kragar's "invisibility" is > definitely not Vlad's humor, but more a real attribute .. My guess is that Kragar's ability is psionics. It explains a few things: 1) How it is a real phenomenon, and not a perception 2) How he knew Daymar We know that Daymar used it on Vlad to change his perception of Morganti weapons, to make them less...um...uncomfortable. It seems to me that if Kragar was able to do this with himself it would explain a lot. He is, however evasive when asked about how he does it. Textev (from online, Jhereg, Chapter 10): Kragar had returned. "Would you mind telling me how you keep doing that?" I asked. He smiled and shook his head in mock sadness. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From books at bofh.com Fri Nov 7 00:01:45 2003 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 01:01:45 -0700 Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb In-Reply-To: <20031105025301.GA26843@ofb.net> References: <4ADD4AB3.25977D58.00048EA6@aol.com> <20031105025301.GA26843@ofb.net> Message-ID: <20031107080145.GB2735@bofh.com> On Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 06:53:01PM -0800, Damien Sullivan wrote: > On Tue, Nov 04, 2003 at 07:18:31PM -0500, Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > > > Maybe that's why sorcery's more powerful -- the load went > > > down, literally... > > > > Cute, but there's too many people in Vlad's time using > > sorcery at levels equal to or greater than in LoCb. > > Not if floating castles were taking up most of the energy, and there's only > one now. Didn't we discover in LoCB that CB is levitated with witchcraft, not sorcery? Perhaps I mis-remember. Perhaps it has changed since it was first done. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Nov 7 00:04:36 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 00:04:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: <20031107075842.GA2735@bofh.com> References: <20031107075842.GA2735@bofh.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Nov 2003, Jot Powers wrote: > On Wed, Nov 05, 2003 at 01:28:27AM -0500, Malcolm wrote: > > Vlad's meeting with the Demon, Kragar's appearance when they investigate > > Loraan's "stash" .. I'd have to say that Kragar's "invisibility" is > > definitely not Vlad's humor, but more a real attribute .. > > My guess is that Kragar's ability is psionics. It explains a > few things: > > 1) How it is a real phenomenon, and not a perception > 2) How he knew Daymar I (am pretending to) dispute point 1) - point 2) I explain away as Vlad cleverly overwriting the actual reason K knows D in order to further the running joke. Maybe K knows D because he went to him to try to learn how to tone down an over-loud aura... From warlord at dragon.com Fri Nov 7 07:09:36 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 10:09:36 -0500 Subject: Ode to Loiosh (aka Bored at Work) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark A Mandel [mailto:mam at theworld.com] > Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 5:23 PM > To: Warlord > Cc: Dragaera List > Subject: RE: Ode to Loiosh (aka Bored at Work) > > > On Thu, 6 Nov 2003, Warlord wrote: > > #I'm not a regular usenet reader, so please feel free > #post it. You really think they will like it ? > > Abso-friggin'-lutely. > > -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname > http://world.std.com/~mam/filk.html > Now on the Filker's Bardic Webring! > My personal, agressive singing strategy: If you can't hit the note, then SCARE it as it goes by.... Just to see some of things you are talking about, I reloaded Xnews. It's been a while. The last time I read news it was from a Vax. I'll bet they're still recycling the same jokes in rec.humor.funny *chuckle* Oh look, an ALT catagory -- oh, shiney! W From casca913 at gbronline.com Fri Nov 7 09:20:36 2003 From: casca913 at gbronline.com (Charlie Smith) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 11:20:36 -0600 Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb References: <4ADD4AB3.25977D58.00048EA6@aol.com> <20031105025301.GA26843@ofb.net> <20031107080145.GB2735@bofh.com> Message-ID: <002301c3a553$762b6590$c9d1fdd8@pentium4> > Didn't we discover in LoCB that CB is levitated with witchcraft, not > sorcery? Perhaps I mis-remember. Perhaps it has changed since it was > first done. Damn, Now I'm REALLY gonna have to read LoCB.... I've been waiting for paperback so I could afford it :P I had always wondered how Castle Black survived. I had always assumed that it had fallen but hadn't been destroyed for some reason and was thus able to be re-raised.... --"I must make a point of telling Sethra not to underrate the power of -- the hissy-cow" -- Vlad Taltos, How to kill a god in 5 moves or fewer From casca913 at gbronline.com Fri Nov 7 09:26:26 2003 From: casca913 at gbronline.com (Charlie Smith) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 11:26:26 -0600 Subject: Fw: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) Message-ID: <003b01c3a554$46494a30$c9d1fdd8@pentium4> > My guess is that Kragar's ability is psionics. It explains a > few things: > > 1) How it is a real phenomenon, and not a perception > 2) How he knew Daymar > > We know that Daymar used it on Vlad to change his perception > of Morganti weapons, to make them less...um...uncomfortable. > > It seems to me that if Kragar was able to do this with himself > it would explain a lot. That would ALMOST tie in with the witchcraft explanation of earlier, although of course only one "person" knows for sure.... Hehe, good thing that Steve in a mischievous god who likes to keep us guessing, otherwise we would have nothing to speculate about(especially Devera).... I am curious as to how OFTEN we hit the mark with some of our hypothesis(plural?). From mtiller at ntlworld.com Fri Nov 7 11:07:51 2003 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 19:07:51 -0000 Subject: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000701c3a562$8b1086c0$0101a8c0@sweetdrewydscc> Spoiler Space I don't know if this has been discussed on the list. I don't remember it, but if it has, my apologies. When explaining to Vlad about the war with the Jenoine, Sethra says of the Gods when they are reviewing the dead:- "Others have skills that might someday be useful, and those are held in the Paths of the Dead against that use, or reincarnated into circumstances where their skills can develop." Upon rereading that recently, I realised that she was probably including Vlad in the category or those who have been reincarnated to allow their skills to develop. This is further confirmed a couple of pages later when Sethra, describing the time when Zerika, Keiron, Aleira, Sethra and Vlad were forging the empire, "I think we were all, even then, marked out by the gods". So Vlad was to develop his skills to be of more use, a couple of questions arise: 1. What skills were they. Presumably assassination and skill at improvisation. I'd add getting Godslayer, but Verra didn't know about Spellbreaker until now, and has been using Vlad for longer than that, so it seems unlikely that was one of the reasons. 2. Why as an easterner? I see a few possibilities, A. They wanted his skills to develop quickly, without having to wait for a Dragaeran to mature. B. The skills required somebody who hated Dragerans as a class. C. The didn't trust him out of the Paths of the Dead for too long :) D. If Verra simply was kept in the dark by the other gods about Godslayer, did they make him an Easterner so he couldn't get back into the Paths of the Dead carrying a weapon that could destroy them. Keiron had his sword, so weapons can go with you. Mark From mtiller at ntlworld.com Fri Nov 7 11:13:57 2003 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 19:13:57 -0000 Subject: Gods blood. Message-ID: <000901c3a563$50a28780$0101a8c0@sweetdrewydscc> Two separate facts that interest me. 1. You have to have gods blood flowing in your veins to leave the Paths of the Dead or not be Dragaeran. 2. You can train to be a God. So presumably, training to be a god must alter your blood? From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Nov 7 11:33:02 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 11:33:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Gods blood. Message-ID: <200311071933.hA7JX3g18136@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > Two separate facts that interest me. > > 1. You have to have gods blood flowing in your veins to leave the Paths of > the Dead or not be Dragaeran. I don't think that's completely true (though only the Gods know for sure:). I think there is some subtle mix of circumstances that allow a living person to leave. Godblood, sure, and being an Easterner probably has an effect. But I think the Gods themselves have no small say in the matter. From what I remember, there are some limitations on what the Gods can do in the Paths, but I get the feeling that some of them (*cough* Verra! *cough*) have the power to do more than they say, and that, if the Gods had chosen to, they could have let Morollan leave without him getting his little infusion. (The Gods just didn't want to set yet *another* precedent for people leaving when they really shouldn't. I mean, Zerika is one thing, and yeah, sure, Vlad's an Easterner and he's kinda cute in that "short and whiskered" way, but they can't let *everyone* walk out, or they might as well open the doors to the whole of Dragaera.) On another thought: I wonder what kind of training goes into becoming a God. Does one need to lift Planet-Weights? Eat lots of Wheaties? Maybe you have to prove that you can be in more than one place at a time and can't be controled. Hmm.... :0 Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From pgranzeau at cox.net Fri Nov 7 11:36:22 2003 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 14:36:22 -0500 Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: <20031107075842.GA2735@bofh.com> References: <20031107075842.GA2735@bofh.com> Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031107143442.02be2de0@pop.east.cox.net> At 02:58 11/07/2003, Jot Powers wrote: >On Wed, Nov 05, 2003 at 01:28:27AM -0500, Malcolm wrote: > > Vlad's meeting with the Demon, Kragar's appearance when they investigate > > Loraan's "stash" .. I'd have to say that Kragar's "invisibility" is > > definitely not Vlad's humor, but more a real attribute .. > >My guess is that Kragar's ability is psionics. It explains a >few things: > >1) How it is a real phenomenon, and not a perception >2) How he knew Daymar > >We know that Daymar used it on Vlad to change his perception >of Morganti weapons, to make them less...um...uncomfortable. > >It seems to me that if Kragar was able to do this with himself >it would explain a lot. > >He is, however evasive when asked about how he does it. > >Textev (from online, Jhereg, Chapter 10): > > Kragar had returned. "Would you mind telling me how you keep doing that?" > I asked. He smiled and shook his head in mock sadness. I keep thinking it's something that Kragar would willingly have lived without. Wasn't one of his problems was that no one paid enough attention to him to follow his orders? -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From Talpianna at aol.com Fri Nov 7 12:17:26 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 15:17:26 EST Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb Message-ID: <57.247da950.2cdd57d6@aol.com> In a message dated 11/7/2003 1:25:22 AM US Mountain Standard Time, books at bofh.com writes: Didn't we discover in LoCB that CB is levitated with witchcraft, not sorcery? Perhaps I mis-remember. Perhaps it has changed since it was first done. -Jot It was levitated with witchcraft, but that was before the Orb was readily accessible, and before Morrolan has studied sorcery. Also, Arra said that they needed even more circles of witches than they had then, constantly chanting, to keep it up; so I assume for it to be stable in Vlad's day, there must be some sort of permanent-stasis spell operating. BTW, exactly what is a Lavode and how does one become one? I notice that Tazendra has become one in LoCB. talpianna From carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com Fri Nov 7 12:38:22 2003 From: carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com (Carla Hunt) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 15:38:22 -0500 Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb Message-ID: s p o i l e r s f o r i s s o l a "Yes," said Sethra. "We used the power of the Greater Sea to protect the Orb, and used the Orb to protect the Greater Sea. It never occured to me that they might tap into the Lesser Sea because it isn't connected to the Orb. But they somehow have tapped into it. They have been draining it, and learning to control it with the trellanstone, and that could give them what they need to attack the Orb." Issola, p207 paperback Toubib , ReVibe68 at aol.com om> cc: toubib21 at yahoo.com, dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Some thoughts on the Orb 11/02/2003 10:38 PM --- Jag wrote: > On Sun, 2003-11-02 at 21:26, ReVibe68 at aol.com wrote: > > Sorcery was limited pre-interregnum. Teleportation > was very hardso as not to > > be practical..Witness that in PG and FHYA Khavvren > and Crew travel the Empire > > on horseback. Revivication was not possible. > either. My guess would be that > > the Orb was somehow enhanced Post-Interregnum > because where there used to be ONE > > sea of Chaos now there are Two. Which would mean > one EXTRA source of Amorphia > > for the Orb to draw on. Actually this was said in > one of the books, but for > > the life of me I cant remember which one > > Maybe Phoenix or one of the Khavvren Romances. > > It was definately mentioned in at least one of the > Vlad novels that > sorcery is a lot more powerful and easier to use > post-Interregnum. As > for when it changed, in PotD, one of the scenes with > the Gods involves > them talking about altering the Orb themselves > before it is reclaimed. > There may also be conversations among the Gods about > it in LoCB. > Two words on this, revivification is not strictly Sorcery, but is a mix of sorcery and elder sorcery. And apparently you don't need a link to the Orb to preform it, since I don't think the Necromancer has a link to the Orb(although you could have joined one of the House after her arrival). But she was still quite powerful with out a link. And teleportation worked pre-Interregnum, it was just more difficult. Sethra did teleport Khavreen and company as well as Aliera and Mario. Personally I think it's more likely that wizards during the Interregnum got stronger from the strain of preforming the most minimal task during the Interregnum. Not to mention that one of the books mentions that wizards are able to do more and more everyday. I want to say either Zerika or Cawti said that. But you are correct that in POTD the Lords of Judgment say they have an opportunity, although it's not clear if they took it. Perhaps the increase is a combination of both better sorcerers and a altered Orb. I don't remember it being said that the Orb draws power from the Lesser Sea of Chaos. But in Issola it's said that the Orb would know if the Jenoine were taking power from the Great Sea of Chaos due to the link between the Orb and the Great Sea, but that the Orb wouldn't know about the drainage on the Lesser Sea. Which to me points to there being no link between the two, thus no extra power from the Lesser Sea. ===== Doc www.toubib.us __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ From carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com Fri Nov 7 12:45:32 2003 From: carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com (Carla Hunt) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 15:45:32 -0500 Subject: Sethra's House, the Necromancer Message-ID: s p o i l e r s f o r i s s o l a (sethra speaking to vlad:) "I know you, Vlad: you are uncomfortable with things like causes and reasons, however much you ask for them. And however much you protest, you are and always have been happiest when you had a single task you could accomplish, without worrying about the whys and the consequences." Issola p 42 paperback (vlad speaking of the necromancer:) You must understand, it isn't that I'm afaid of her. I've spoken with her, and, if you can get past the fact that she's undead, and that her mind is perfectly comfortable living in places that would drive me mad, and that for her the distinction between the living and the dead is what way she's facing, she's a perfectly decent sort, as Dragearans go. Issola p 213 paperback i think vlad likes her, he's just not quite comfortable with her because he doesn't understand her... and considering the reasons (life and death being a "matter of engineering" and so forth), i don't think he quite wants to know. so he likes her, but from a distance. Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert To: Dragaera Subject: Re: Sethra's House, the Necromancer 10/29/2003 10:10 AM Philip Hart wrote: > Another theory - the N seems to be oddly fond of Vlad (v. the last pages > of _Issola_) - perhaps in _Jhereg_ he was trying to pretend he felt > comfortable with her out of (rather rare) courtliness, or just because he > felt he owed it to her. > > Still, most likely the oddness in _J_ is just Vlad having a little joke. > Probably Loiosh fell off his shoulder laughing (or whatever the jhereg > equivalent is - headbobbing?) when V described the encounter in question. > > I got the impression that Vlad was more comfortable with the Necromancer at one point, but then as he came to understand that "living" and "dead" were technical terms to her, matters of looking in a different direction, etc, he became less comfortable around her. Perhaps she seemed polite and non-intrusive before (good characteristics in the eyes of an assassin), but further exposure to her has brought him an understanding that she really /is/ looking right through (the physical) him when they speak. Kisc From bonham15 at cox.net Fri Nov 7 23:37:51 2003 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 01:37:51 -0600 Subject: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler) References: <000701c3a562$8b1086c0$0101a8c0@sweetdrewydscc> Message-ID: <000401c3a5cb$370b56e0$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> Spoiler Space imho.... ahhhh screw the h for humble.... vlad's skill is messing up the current order, and willing to do *anything* to achieve his ends. it was dolivar's after all.. in the end his biggest skills were being a rat bastard. andy From casca913 at gbronline.com Fri Nov 7 23:43:50 2003 From: casca913 at gbronline.com (Charlie Smith) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 01:43:50 -0600 Subject: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler) References: <000701c3a562$8b1086c0$0101a8c0@sweetdrewydscc> <000401c3a5cb$370b56e0$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> Message-ID: <000701c3a5cc$0d659b60$23570945@pentium4> That and making a mean cuppa Klava after a hard days work! "The best part of waking up is Klava in your cup!" > Spoiler Space > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > imho.... ahhhh screw the h for humble.... vlad's skill is messing up the > current order, and willing to do *anything* to achieve his ends. it was > dolivar's after all.. in the end his biggest skills were being a rat > bastard. > andy From mtiller at ntlworld.com Sat Nov 8 01:05:06 2003 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 09:05:06 -0000 Subject: Sethra's House, the Necromancer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003901c3a5d7$68d55930$0101a8c0@sweetdrewydscc> -----Original Message----- From: Carla Hunt [mailto:carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com] Sent: 07 November 2003 20:46 To: Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert Cc: Dragaera Subject: Re: Sethra's House, the Necromancer s p o i l e r s f o r i s s o l a >i think vlad likes her, he's just not quite comfortable with her because he doesn't understand her... and considering the reasons (life and death being a >"matter of engineering" and so forth), i don't think he quite wants to know. so he likes her, but from a distance. Maybe likes her, but he's just embarrassed about the idea that she may have been talking to his former victims :) M. From yaga at berkano.pair.com Sat Nov 8 03:55:46 2003 From: yaga at berkano.pair.com (yaga at berkano.pair.com) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 06:55:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Sethra's House, the Necromancer (sans spoilers) In-Reply-To: <003901c3a5d7$68d55930$0101a8c0@sweetdrewydscc> Message-ID: <20031108115546.48850.qmail@berkano.pair.com> > > Maybe likes her, but he's just embarrassed about the idea that she may have > been talking to his former victims :) > > M. I don't know if this has been mentioned, (I wouldn't be surprised if it had and I've merely forgotten...) but I'm wondering; if someone is unrevivifiable, they still get the Deathgate Special, descend to the Paths, and are eligible for re-incarnation, yes? So...couldn't _any_ necromancer contact ye olde dead while still among the Paths and asked who killed them? If not, doesn't anyone know if this is specifically stated as being untrue, or implied? - Peter / Yaga > > > From casca913 at gbronline.com Sat Nov 8 10:05:11 2003 From: casca913 at gbronline.com (Charlie Smith) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 12:05:11 -0600 Subject: Sethra's House, the Necromancer (sans spoilers) References: <20031108115546.48850.qmail@berkano.pair.com> Message-ID: <001501c3a622$dadf1de0$3a570945@pentium4> > I don't know if this has been mentioned, (I wouldn't be surprised if it had and I've merely forgotten...) but I'm wondering; if someone is > unrevivifiable, they still get the Deathgate Special, descend to the Paths, and are eligible for re-incarnation, yes? > > So...couldn't _any_ necromancer contact ye olde dead while still among the Paths and asked who killed them? > > If not, doesn't anyone know if this is specifically stated as being untrue, or implied? You know, I had never made the connection before to WHY the serioli made the Morganti weapons till now. Yeah sure, they SAID in the books that they were made to "Stop wars" by making them too horrific but what if the real reason was to deny The Gods the souls they need to form the army against the Jenoine. An interesting thought, No? From calianng_graves at yahoo.com Sat Nov 8 15:19:12 2003 From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 15:19:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb In-Reply-To: <20031107080145.GB2735@bofh.com> Message-ID: <20031108231912.71861.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com> In _Issola_, Morrolan still had his witches. They occupy the East Tower. To go on pure speculation, I cannot imagine Morrolan shifting the entire support of his Castle so it is dependant upon Empire Sorcery. Perhaps a strange mixture of Witchcraft and Elder Sorcery, but not Empire Sorcery. Peace, Caliann *Owned and Operated by the Grand Poohbah Cheese of the Universe* Jot Powers wrote: Didn't we discover in LoCB that CB is levitated with witchcraft, not sorcery? Perhaps I mis-remember. Perhaps it has changed since it was first done. "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard From calianng_graves at yahoo.com Sat Nov 8 15:43:37 2003 From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 15:43:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sethra's House, the Necromancer (sans spoilers) In-Reply-To: <20031108115546.48850.qmail@berkano.pair.com> Message-ID: <20031108234337.89401.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> yaga at berkano.pair.com wrote: I don't know if this has been mentioned, (I wouldn't be surprised if it had and I've merely forgotten...) but I'm wondering; if someone is unrevivifiable, they still get the Deathgate Special, descend to the Paths, and are eligible for re-incarnation, yes? So...couldn't _any_ necromancer contact ye olde dead while still among the Paths and asked who killed them? If not, doesn't anyone know if this is specifically stated as being untrue, or implied? ******* No. Morganti weapons "eat" or "destroy" the soul. The essense of that being it then lost. Now whether there is some way to get them out of the weapon after that.... S P O I L E R Those of us that have read Issola know that Lady Teldra's soul was "eaten" in such a way, but that Vlad managed to retrieve it and "embed" it , per se, with Spellbreaker. And so was GodSlayer born. During that creation, Vlad mentioned gathering Lady Teldra as "grey threads". It is entirely possible that Morganti weapons don't so much destroy the soul as they shred it....they just hold it within them. There is, of course, much speculation on it, but one thing is certain: Those that are killed with Morganti weapons do not go to the Paths and do not become reincarnated. Therefore, even a top notch Necromancer cannot speak with them. Peace Caliann *Owned and Operated by the Grand Poohbah Cheese of the Universe* "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard From davids at kithrup.com Sat Nov 8 17:57:27 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 17:57:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sethra's House, the Necromancer (sans spoilers) In-Reply-To: <20031108234337.89401.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Nov 2003, Caliann the Elf wrote: >yaga at berkano.pair.com wrote: > >>I don't know if this has been mentioned, (I wouldn't be surprised if >>it had and I've merely forgotten...) but I'm wondering; if someone >>is unrevivifiable, they still get the Deathgate Special, descend to >>the Paths, and are eligible for re-incarnation, yes? > >>So...couldn't _any_ necromancer contact ye olde dead while still >>among the Paths and asked who killed them? > > >******* No. Morganti weapons "eat" or "destroy" the soul. The >essense of that being it then lost. Now whether there is some way >to get them out of the weapon after that.... I believe you misunderstood the term "unrevivifiable", which, while it *can* mean "killed with a Morganti weapon", more typically means "killed in such a way that the brain is damaged or the spinal cord is severed" or, alternatively, "killed, and the corpse inflicted with a sorcerous spell to prevent revivification". Such persons are indeed permanently dead, but their souls presumably go to whereever it is the souls of dead people go. That being said, I think it highly unlikely that said souls can be subpoened into murder investigations, since then assassins would *only* be able to either "work" once or only "work" Morganti. [Spoilers for /Lord of Castle Black/] I note that in LoCB, what the Necromancer does is to re-animate all of the enemy corpses on the battlefield, rather than re-insert their souls (which would be true revivification as we see in the Vlad novels). I would guess that what she is doing is manipulating the life-states of the bodies, raising them to the level of brute animal life, and then directing their actions. But then, we may not have seen the limit of what the Necromancer can do. Perhaps she, of all necromancers, *could* contact souls who have Moved On. From davids at kithrup.com Sat Nov 8 18:13:34 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 18:13:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Matrix Revolutions Message-ID: I find myself wondering if perhaps the Wachowski Brothers (or perhaps the Brothers Wachowski) were in any way influenced by Steve Brust's writings. For example, there is, in the Matrix-future, a thick, permanent Enclouding that blocks sunlight from reaching the surface of the Earth. More to the point, though [minor spoilers for Matrix Revolutions]: At one point, Neo wakes up in a certain place, and finds a young girl, of perhaps 7 or 8 years with brown hair and brown eyes [1], standing over him. He is in a place that he finds he cannot leave without the permission of the local "god". The girl's name, as it turns out, is "Sati", but I noticed when they rolled the credits that the actress' name is "Tanveer Atwal". "Tanveer" sounds a little like "Devera". A coincidence, perhaps, and a minor homage rather than any huge similarity. But I thought I would point it out. [1] OK, and also brown skin, which I am not sure Devera has. Nevertheless. From alexx at panix.com Sat Nov 8 20:59:01 2003 From: alexx at panix.com (Alexander Kay) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 23:59:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Dragaera Timeline has moved Message-ID: <200311090459.hA94x1G12943@panix3.panix.com> I've changed ISPs, so so has the Dragaera Timeline. It's now at: http://www.panix.com/~alexx/timeline.txt Alexx Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers. alexx at carolingiaSPAMBL@CK.org http://www.panix.com/~alexx "The brief, endless instant of being possessed, ridden, or taken over by one of the archetypes, the god forms. The shattering and sudden knowledge that you are not you, have never been you, are only a fragile and temporary mask for... I don't know. Shit, I write comics, okay? I don't know..." -- Alan Moore in correspondence with Dave Sim about _From Hell_ From yaga at berkano.pair.com Sat Nov 8 21:39:24 2003 From: yaga at berkano.pair.com (yaga at berkano.pair.com) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 00:39:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: Unrevivifyable "work" (was Sethra's House / Necromancer / Issola) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031109053924.43914.qmail@berkano.pair.com> > >yaga at berkano.pair.com wrote: > > > >>I don't know if this has been mentioned, (I wouldn't be surprised if > >>it had and I've merely forgotten...) but I'm wondering; if someone > >>is unrevivifiable, they still get the Deathgate Special, descend to > >>the Paths, and are eligible for re-incarnation, yes? > > > >>So...couldn't _any_ necromancer contact ye olde dead while still > >>among the Paths and asked who killed them? > > > >******* No. Morganti weapons "eat" or "destroy" the soul. The > >essense of that being it then lost. Now whether there is some way > >to get them out of the weapon after that.... > > I believe you misunderstood the term "unrevivifiable", which, while it > *can* mean "killed with a Morganti weapon", more typically means > "killed in such a way that the brain is damaged or the spinal cord is > severed" or, alternatively, "killed, and the corpse inflicted with a > sorcerous spell to prevent revivification". Such persons are indeed > permanently dead, but their souls presumably go to whereever it is the > souls of dead people go. > > That being said, I think it highly unlikely that said souls can be > subpoened into murder investigations, since then assassins would > *only* be able to either "work" once or only "work" Morganti. *nod* I was speaking of the dagger-in-the-eye, hide-the-corpse flavors of making a person unrevivifiable. And am I wrong in thinking that souls going to the Paths aren't fully incomunicado? And no, while you couldn't put a soul under the Star, wouldn't someone who'd *spoken* to the soul be able to give witness under the Star to what they said about their deaths? ...I think I'm going to have to re-read the series to figure this out if anyone else doesn' have a handle on it already *cough* Steven? *cough* > > [Spoilers for /Lord of Castle Black/] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I note that in LoCB, what the Necromancer does is to re-animate all of > the enemy corpses on the battlefield, rather than re-insert their > souls (which would be true revivification as we see in the Vlad > novels). I would guess that what she is doing is manipulating the > life-states of the bodies, raising them to the level of brute animal > life, and then directing their actions. > > But then, we may not have seen the limit of what the Necromancer can > do. Perhaps she, of all necromancers, *could* contact souls who have > Moved On. > > From yaga at berkano.pair.com Sat Nov 8 21:41:34 2003 From: yaga at berkano.pair.com (yaga at berkano.pair.com) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 00:41:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb In-Reply-To: <20031108231912.71861.qmail@web21108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20031109054134.44194.qmail@berkano.pair.com> > In _Issola_, Morrolan still had his witches. They occupy the East Tower. I really need to read closer; Does vlad, being Mr. Security, know this? Or does Morrolan handle security matters for the east towers himself? Peter / Yaga > > To go on pure speculation, I cannot imagine Morrolan shifting the entire support of his Castle so it is dependant upon Empire Sorcery. Perhaps a strange mixture of Witchcraft and Elder Sorcery, but not Empire Sorcery. > > Peace, > Caliann > *Owned and Operated by the Grand Poohbah Cheese of the Universe* > > Jot Powers wrote: > > Didn't we discover in LoCB that CB is levitated with witchcraft, not > sorcery? Perhaps I mis-remember. Perhaps it has changed since it was > first done. > > > > "Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard From ruhlenr at tigger.uic.edu Sun Nov 9 06:22:07 2003 From: ruhlenr at tigger.uic.edu (Rachel L. Ruhlen) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 08:22:07 -0600 Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.0.20031109082131.01ad0828@tigger.uic.edu> At 07:54 PM 11/1/2003, David Silberstein wrote: > >I find myself wondering exactly *how* the Orb protects the Emperor. >Why *is* it necessary for people to defend her against Kana's forces? > >One possibility is that she is not well versed in using the Orb >offensively. Another is that the Orb only *has* defensive >capabilities, and would allow her to be captured if a more active >defense was not mounted, and direct threats to her life were not being >made. A third, and more subtle possibility, is that the Orb "defends >the Emperor" by manipulating the minds of those who are connected to >it so that they will be willing to give their lives (with the caveat >that some can perhaps resist this manipulation, e.g., Adron). Hmm. I think one can never have too many defenses, maybe she thinks of people as backup in case the orb fails (as it obviously did fail once before). After all, no matter how good the wizard, a knife between his shoulder blades will cramp his style. Rachel From greyw01f at hotmail.com Sun Nov 9 12:21:59 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 20:21:59 +0000 Subject: Some thoughts on the Orb Message-ID: "I think one can never have too many defenses, maybe she thinks of people as backup in case the orb fails (as it obviously did fail once before). After all, no matter how good the wizard, a knife between his shoulder blades will cramp his style. Rachel" That should probably read, No matter how good the wizardry, a knife in the emperor will seriously cramp its style. *shrugs* Jon _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/features&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca From agrajag at dragaera.net Sun Nov 9 19:55:47 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 09 Nov 2003 22:55:47 -0500 Subject: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler) In-Reply-To: <000701c3a562$8b1086c0$0101a8c0@sweetdrewydscc> References: <000701c3a562$8b1086c0$0101a8c0@sweetdrewydscc> Message-ID: <1068436547.2083.4.camel@loiosh> On Fri, 2003-11-07 at 14:07, Mark Tiller wrote: > Spoiler Space > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Issola Spoiler... > 1. What skills were they. Hmm.. how about Godslayer? Obtaining it isn't necessarily a 'skill', but it is something to keep him around for. And learning how to use it is definately a skill. As for why and Easterner.. control. He's destined to get the Great Weapon that is named for its ability to cut down Gods where they stand. Wouldn't the gods want some control over that person? Dragaerans believe in the gods, but don't think godhood alone is enough of a reason to obey them. Vlad on the other hand has been taught to be loyal to Verra by his grandfather, thus giving her a measure of control over Godslayer's wielder. Jag From agrajag at dragaera.net Sun Nov 9 20:06:06 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 09 Nov 2003 23:06:06 -0500 Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1068437165.2083.9.camel@loiosh> On Tue, 2003-11-04 at 18:58, David Silberstein wrote: > On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Trager wrote: > > > > >Another note on Kragar being a half-breed... when Aliera and Morrolan > >are arguing about Norathar's lineage, I seem to recall one of them > >making a comment about Kragar's genetics that implies that he was a > >full blooded Dragon. Unfortunately, I don't have the book with me > >right now, so I can't confirm that. > > Well, we do have a booksearch now. It was a bit tricky to find the > combination of words to get what I think you are remembering, but > it would appear to be in /Yendi/, chapter 8: > > Morrolan: "Have you met Vlad's assistant, Kragar? He's as much of a > Dragon --" > > Aliera (interrupting Morrolan): "That snake? He was thrown out of > the House, as you well know." This quote seems to support the Skinter idea for another reason. As we know, there's no way Morrolan and Aliera could have both been around during the time when Kragar was thrown out. It had to either happen before the Interegnum, when only Aliera was around, or after (and before Aliera was brought back), when only Morrolan was around. Since Aliera says 'as you well know', it leads me to believe that Morrolan was either intimately involved with it, or at least around enough to hear about it. That sets the time-frame up for it to possibly be Skinter. Even more so if Morrolan was intimately involved with it. I still don't like the idea though. Mainly because I see Skinter as a little twerp, and Kragar as a really cool character. I just don't want them to be the same. From agrajag at dragaera.net Sun Nov 9 20:14:13 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 09 Nov 2003 23:14:13 -0500 Subject: Retreat to an earlier thread of thought In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1068437652.2083.12.camel@loiosh> On Wed, 2003-11-05 at 14:52, Philip Hart wrote: > On Wed, 5 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > > > On Wed, 5 Nov 2003, Charlie Smith wrote: > > > > > > > >The course he takes in regard to the future of the Vladiad is , of > > >course, anyone guess. So while reading I thought of the "mysterious" > > >circumstances involved in the LAST assault of the Jenoine. The > > >Assault on Dzur Mountain that we hear references of on perhaps 4 > > >occasions, total. That was my thought for the future book entitled, > > >Dzur. > > > > But as I am sure you will recall, Vlad was not present at that event. > > > > Although I admit it would be interesting to read a tale from Sethra's > > POV, or Tukko's POV, or from the Jenoine's POV, or from Dzur > > Mountain's POV. > > > I'd be more interested in a story from Loiosh's POV. I don't want to hear > Sethra's POV, frankly - I don't think she could be presented convincingly. Orca Spoiler...... I think he SKZB did a good job of Sethra's POV in Orca. From agrajag at dragaera.net Sun Nov 9 20:22:23 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 09 Nov 2003 23:22:23 -0500 Subject: Sethra's House, the Necromancer (sans spoilers) In-Reply-To: <20031108234337.89401.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20031108234337.89401.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1068438142.2083.17.camel@loiosh> On Sat, 2003-11-08 at 18:43, Caliann the Elf wrote: > S > > P > > O > > I > > L > > E > > R > > Those of us that have read Issola know that Lady Teldra's soul was "eaten" in such a way, but that Vlad managed to retrieve it and "embed" it , per se, with Spellbreaker. And so was GodSlayer born. > > During that creation, Vlad mentioned gathering Lady Teldra as "grey threads". It is entirely possible that Morganti weapons don't so much destroy the soul as they shred it....they just hold it within them. That's different. That's a GW, more or less. Just like in Jhereg Aliera manages to not be killed by a Morganti weapon by having Pathfinder hold onto her soul. That trick was only possible because Pathfinder is a GW, and likewise, the blade that 'ate' Lady Teldra was a GW, or at least a part of it. And a part of a GW that was eating another part of the same GW, therefore the same rules don't apply. Jag From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Nov 9 20:23:03 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 20:23:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: <1068437165.2083.9.camel@loiosh> References: <1068437165.2083.9.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, Jag wrote: > > Morrolan: "Have you met Vlad's assistant, Kragar? He's as much of a > > Dragon --" > > > > Aliera (interrupting Morrolan): "That snake? He was thrown out of > > the House, as you well know." > > This quote seems to support the Skinter idea for another reason. As we > know, there's no way Morrolan and Aliera could have both been around > during the time when Kragar was thrown out. It had to either happen > before the Interegnum, when only Aliera was around, or after (and before > Aliera was brought back), when only Morrolan was around. Since Aliera > says 'as you well know', it leads me to believe that Morrolan was either > intimately involved with it, or at least around enough to hear about > it. That sets the time-frame up for it to possibly be Skinter. Even > more so if Morrolan was intimately involved with it. I don't see "sometime in the last 250 years" as any sort of evidence for the Skinter (what's below hypothesis?) - though it's clear here (and in _Dragon_ - 'forgive me if I don't bow') that M and K do have some sort of history, even if it's not direct. For instance, it seems perfectly possible that M won some famous victory because K's troops failed to show up for the battle. Note that in _Taltos_ K doesn't evince much history with M when the name first comes up. Also note there that M did some background checks on Vlad and his operation before Operation Aliera's-a-stick. Finally note that K has plenty of dealings with Dragons in the Vladiad, and there's a significant lack of him getting hacked to death on sight. In fact, I'd have to say that when Vlad meet K he's rather a nobody, despite his extraordinary abilities - K seems rather more a recent Jhereg than a 250-year veteran. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Nov 9 20:37:12 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 20:37:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Retreat to an earlier thread of thought In-Reply-To: <1068437652.2083.12.camel@loiosh> References: <1068437652.2083.12.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, Jag wrote: > On Wed, 2003-11-05 at 14:52, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > I'd be more interested in a story from Loiosh's POV. I don't want to hear > > Sethra's POV, frankly - I don't think she could be presented convincingly. > > Orca Spoiler...... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think he SKZB did a good job of Sethra's POV in Orca. In _O_ we get (for the most part) Kiera's POV, filtered through some odd set of perspectives - talking to Vlad, talking to Cawti. Well, we get a bit of Sethra/Kiera talking to a dog and a brain-damaged boy. For example, IIRC there's a nice bit at the beginning where K says to V, long time no see, telling herself that from V's perspective it has been a long time since he's an Easterner. From S's point of view almost everybody is about to die. And at the end there's a nice bit about her not fearing any one person - though actually S doesn't fear any n people, probably... In _O_ we don't get Sethra musing about how much Vlad is like Dolivar, or about particular spells, or, well, any of a hundred fascinating things. More importantly, we don't get much emotional insight. She's far enough away from our experience that I doubt a Vladiad book could do her justice. From mark_englehart at cox.net Sun Nov 9 21:56:23 2003 From: mark_englehart at cox.net (Mark Englehart) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 21:56:23 -0800 Subject: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler) In-Reply-To: <1068436547.2083.4.camel@loiosh> References: <000701c3a562$8b1086c0$0101a8c0@sweetdrewydscc> <000701c3a562$8b1086c0$0101a8c0@sweetdrewydscc> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20031109212340.00a25ec0@pop.west.cox.net> At 10:55 PM 11/9/2003 -0500, Jag wrote: > Vlad on the other hand has been taught to be loyal to >Verra by his grandfather, thus giving her a measure of control over >[him]. > > >Jag Excuse me? Verra control Vlad? Admittedly, so far whenever she's needed him he's answered the call, but this was because he felt his life was threatened (Phoenix) or the world was going to be destroyed and his friends lives were threatened (Issola). I think I agree with Andy: Dolivar was always good at stirring things up. The second Great Cycle has just begun... hey! maybe that's it. Maybe the Gods figure Dolivar is needed at the start of each Great Cycle in order to stir things up and help set the course. Dolivar was, apparently, a rat bastard. Vlad was actually raised with a conscience, thanks to Noish-pa; he just spent most of his life trying to hide from it. Maybe he had a hard enough time with a smart-alecky jhereg talking in his head that he felt he didn't need Jiminy Cricket too. I think they put Dolivar in an Easterner so he could a). develop a conscience, and b). learn to see things from the other person's point of view; something next to impossible for a Dragaeran who isn't a Tiassa. --Mark From davids at kithrup.com Sun Nov 9 22:59:35 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 22:59:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > >I don't see "sometime in the last 250 years" as any sort of evidence >for the Skinter (what's below hypothesis?) Suggestion? Notion? Idea? Pulled-from-out-of-arse wild speculation? > Finally note that K has plenty of dealings with Dragons in the >Vladiad, and there's a significant lack of him getting hacked to >death on sight. But why would anyone hack him to death? Whatever he did may have been contemptible, and un-Dragon-like, but that doesn't mean that it would be worth killing him for... (Tangent: I was pondering some possible un-Dragon-like things that Kragar might have done, and one of them was that he might have done what Vlad ended up doing - he might have gone to the Empire & embarrassed some high-level Dragon for something that makes the whole House look bad in the Empire's eyes. Dragons wouldn't kill him if he was in fact in the *right*, but they wouldn't want him in the House.) >In fact, I'd have to say that when Vlad meet K he's rather a nobody, >despite his extraordinary abilities - K seems rather more a recent >Jhereg than a 250-year veteran. That's a good point. He might have been just sulking and slacking for the past couple hundred years or so, but that doesn't seem very likely. I just re-read in LoCB (chap. 53, pg 237) where Aerich is explaining means & ends, and states that what Skinter is doing - attacking the Empire - is the most terrible moral crime there is, which supports whoever suggested that upthread. Which strongly implies that Skinter will be executed when this is all over. However, I note while reading it that the phrase "grave moral crime" could just as easily apply to Adron e'Kieron's hissy-cow. And again, this is a /Lyorn's/ POV; if Dragons cared about moral justification, well, they would fight a great deal less, I nearly think. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Nov 9 23:12:33 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 23:12:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > >I don't see "sometime in the last 250 years" as any sort of evidence > >for the Skinter (what's below hypothesis?) > > Suggestion? > Notion? > Idea? > Pulled-from-out-of-arse wild speculation? I'm looking for some philosophy-of-science-blessed term, if possible with a Greek root.... > > Finally note that K has plenty of dealings with Dragons in the > >Vladiad, and there's a significant lack of him getting hacked to > >death on sight. > > But why would anyone hack him to death? Whatever he did may have been > contemptible, and un-Dragon-like, but that doesn't mean that it would > be worth killing him for... I'm arguing against the Skinter-as-Kragar idea here. > I just re-read in LoCB (chap. 53, pg 237) where Aerich is explaining > means & ends, and states that what Skinter is doing - attacking the > Empire - is the most terrible moral crime there is, which supports > whoever suggested that upthread. Which strongly implies that Skinter > will be executed when this is all over. Probably me, I'm fanatically opposed to this for some reason, even though I like my Sethra-and-Aliera-killed-Tortaalik-and-smeared-Mario idea, which is probably more of an affront to SKZB. > However, I note while reading it that the phrase "grave moral crime" > could just as easily apply to Adron e'Kieron's hissy-cow. And again, > this is a /Lyorn's/ POV; if Dragons cared about moral justification, > well, they would fight a great deal less, I nearly think. It's not clear to me that Aerich considered Adron to be a war criminal. Anyway, crime or no, I think a lot of Dzurs and just random hotheads would want a piece of Skinter, and not anything external. From davids at kithrup.com Sun Nov 9 23:14:04 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 23:14:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler) In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20031109212340.00a25ec0@pop.west.cox.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, Mark Englehart wrote: >At 10:55 PM 11/9/2003 -0500, Jag wrote: >> Vlad on the other hand has been taught to be loyal to >>Verra by his grandfather, thus giving her a measure of control over >>[him]. >> >> >>Jag > >Excuse me? Verra control Vlad? Admittedly, so far whenever she's >needed him he's answered the call, but this was because he felt his >life was threatened (Phoenix) or the world was going to be destroyed >and his friends lives were threatened (Issola). More to the point, I think Vlad has lost nearly *all* of the respect he once had for the Demon Goddess of his ancestors after seeing her being utterly fallible, in /Phoenix/. And in /Issola/, at one point he thinks she's fighting like a tag in a brothel. If that's respect, I wouldn't want to see what his contempt looks like... >Dolivar was, apparently, a rat bastard. Vlad was actually raised with >a conscience, thanks to Noish-pa; he just spent most of his life trying >to hide from it. Maybe he had a hard enough time with a smart-alecky >jhereg talking in his head that he felt he didn't need Jiminy Cricket too. >I think they put Dolivar in an Easterner so he could a). develop a >conscience, And do so quickly. I think Easterners being short-lived (or at least, developing quicker - Vlad may not die for a long while, due to, well, you know) is an important point. > and b). learn to see things from the other person's point of >view; something next to impossible for a Dragaeran who isn't a Tiassa. > Um. I think you are wildly wrong on this last point. We've seen Sethra be empathic, and gently pushing Tazendra that way (in that great scene in FHYA), and I am rather sure that there are other examples as well. Picking a couple more examples at random: How could Uttrik have forgiven Kathana, if he could not see her outrage over being slighted over something that was incredibly important to her? How could Kathana have agreed to submit to justice, if she could not see Uttrik's grief and loss? And so on. If all of the Dragaerans were truly so blind, they would seem nearly inhuman. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Nov 9 23:27:51 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 23:27:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, Mark Englehart wrote: > > >At 10:55 PM 11/9/2003 -0500, Jag wrote: >>> Vlad on the other hand has been taught to be loyal to Verra by his >>> grandfather, thus giving her a measure of control over [him]. >>>Jag > >Excuse me? Verra control Vlad? Admittedly, so far whenever she's > >needed him he's answered the call, but this was because he felt his > >life was threatened (Phoenix) or the world was going to be destroyed > >and his friends lives were threatened (Issola). > > More to the point, I think Vlad has lost nearly *all* of the respect > he once had for the Demon Goddess of his ancestors after seeing her > being utterly fallible, in /Phoenix/. > And in /Issola/, at one point he thinks she's fighting like a tag in a > brothel. If that's respect, I wouldn't want to see what his contempt > looks like... Otoh, it's a bit odd for Vlad to body-block a death ray aimed at a nearly-respectless tag. In my opinion, Vlad acts more like a late preteen (or an early teenager, or - well, can't remember or don't know any developmental psych) towards tDG in _Issola_ than an adult, veering between attention-seeking and adulation and disappointment and disdain. For the record, Veera is pretty ostentatiously fallible for an interventionist god. Also: the Jenoine seem to bring out the worst in people (well, except Lady Teldra.) > >Dolivar was, apparently, a rat bastard. Do we have any solid evidence for this? Kieron didn't like him, but it sounds as if Sethra had a soft spot for him. From davids at kithrup.com Sun Nov 9 23:56:44 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 23:56:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > >> On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >> >> >(what's below hypothesis?) >> >> Suggestion? >> Notion? >> Idea? >> Pulled-from-out-of-arse wild speculation? > >I'm looking for some philosophy-of-science-blessed term, if possible >with a Greek root.... "Idea" is Greek. How about "ideation"? More to the point, "*pararectal* ideation"? OK, so "rectum" is latin, but "para" is definitely Greek. [tangent] I have the notion that "pararectal" ought to be prefixed before all examples of science and technology as portrayed in the movies and television. So, for example, Lara Croft is pararectal archeologist. The more the science/tech deviates from reality, or from sane speculation, the more prefixes we add to the term, to indicate that it came from further up the descending colon. So while, say, Trek's "warp drive" is merely pararectal, the way the universal translator *immediately* recognizes languages is hyperpararectal technology, and the bogon-particle-du-jour is superhyperpararectal particle physics. [/tangent] From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Nov 10 00:25:28 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 00:25:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > [tangent] > > I have the notion that "pararectal" ought to be prefixed before > all examples of science and technology as portrayed in the movies and > television. So, for example, Lara Croft is pararectal archeologist. > > The more the science/tech deviates from reality, or from sane > speculation, the more prefixes we add to the term, to indicate that it > came from further up the descending colon. So while, say, Trek's > "warp drive" is merely pararectal, the way the universal translator > *immediately* recognizes languages is hyperpararectal technology, and > the bogon-particle-du-jour is superhyperpararectal particle physics. I think about these sorts of classification on occasion and find them difficult. There may be a lot of particle species out there, I can imagine how a universal translator might work, and I suspect a warp drive violates causality, and there may be a lot of particle species out there, so I would tend to reverse the order you present, depending on what the bogon does for a living. In order of increasing unlikelihood, I would put: Santa Claus, one's neighbor's major religion, astrology. But what do I know. I do think this kind of back-of-the-envelope estimate would be good for tests of grad students in some field of study which probably doesn't exist but should, and which I guess you've named. > > [/tangent] From pulmon at comcast.net Mon Nov 10 03:56:24 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 06:56:24 -0500 Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In medicine we often use the suffix "genic" to mean "arising from" although it actually means "giving birth to". So Rectogenic would be a good term, alternative, anogenic, sigmoidogenic or colonogenic, depending on how far up the idea was pulled from... On Nov 10, 2003, at 2:56 AM, David Silberstein wrote: > On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > >> On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: >> >>> On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >>> >>>> (what's below hypothesis?) >>> >>> Suggestion? >>> Notion? >>> Idea? >>> Pulled-from-out-of-arse wild speculation? >> >> I'm looking for some philosophy-of-science-blessed term, if possible >> with a Greek root.... > > "Idea" is Greek. How about "ideation"? More to the point, > "*pararectal* ideation"? OK, so "rectum" is latin, but "para" is > definitely Greek. > > [tangent] > > I have the notion that "pararectal" ought to be prefixed before > all examples of science and technology as portrayed in the movies and > television. So, for example, Lara Croft is pararectal archeologist. > > The more the science/tech deviates from reality, or from sane > speculation, the more prefixes we add to the term, to indicate that it > came from further up the descending colon. So while, say, Trek's > "warp drive" is merely pararectal, the way the universal translator > *immediately* recognizes languages is hyperpararectal technology, and > the bogon-particle-du-jour is superhyperpararectal particle physics. > > [/tangent] > From mklahn at mac.com Mon Nov 10 06:59:15 2003 From: mklahn at mac.com (Matthew Klahn) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 08:59:15 -0600 Subject: Sethra's House, the Necromancer (sans spoilers) In-Reply-To: <1068438142.2083.17.camel@loiosh> References: <20031108234337.89401.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> <1068438142.2083.17.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: <73E78347-138E-11D8-891D-000393D1260C@mac.com> On Nov 9, 2003, at 22:22 , Jag wrote: > On Sat, 2003-11-08 at 18:43, Caliann the Elf wrote: > >> S >> >> P >> >> O >> >> I >> >> L >> >> E >> >> R >> >> Those of us that have read Issola know that Lady Teldra's soul was >> "eaten" in such a way, but that Vlad managed to retrieve it and >> "embed" it , per se, with Spellbreaker. And so was GodSlayer born. >> >> During that creation, Vlad mentioned gathering Lady Teldra as "grey >> threads". It is entirely possible that Morganti weapons don't so >> much destroy the soul as they shred it....they just hold it within >> them. > > That's different. That's a GW, more or less. Just like in Jhereg > Aliera manages to not be killed by a Morganti weapon by having > Pathfinder hold onto her soul. That trick was only possible because > Pathfinder is a GW, and likewise, the blade that 'ate' Lady Teldra was > a > GW, or at least a part of it. And a part of a GW that was eating > another part of the same GW, therefore the same rules don't apply. > > > Jag > Well, I have to say that I disagree with this. The Morganti dagger that eventually becomes Godslayer wasn't really part of a GW until combined with Spellbreaker, and Teldra was struck down before that combination. So, at the point that the dagger pierced Teldra's skin (and she would have been "eaten"), it was just a plain-ol', run-of-the-mill, copper-penny-a-dozen, somewhat strongish (IIRC) Morganti dagger. Had Spellbreaker never touched the dagger, Teldra would have fared the same fate as, say, Napper. Wait, that's a whole 'nother discussion... -- Matthew S. Klahn Software Architect, CodeTek Studios, Inc. http://www.codetek.com From warlord at dragon.com Mon Nov 10 09:05:36 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 12:05:36 -0500 Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: David Silberstein [mailto:davids at kithrup.com] > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 2:57 AM > To: Dragaera List > Subject: Below Hypothesis > > > On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > >On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > > > >> On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > >> > >> >(what's below hypothesis?) > >> > >> Suggestion? > >> Notion? > >> Idea? > >> Pulled-from-out-of-arse wild speculation? > > > >I'm looking for some philosophy-of-science-blessed term, if possible > >with a Greek root.... > > "Idea" is Greek. How about "ideation"? More to the point, > "*pararectal* ideation"? OK, so "rectum" is latin, but "para" is > definitely Greek. > > [tangent] > > I have the notion that "pararectal" ought to be prefixed before > all examples of science and technology as portrayed in the movies and > television. So, for example, Lara Croft is pararectal archeologist. > > The more the science/tech deviates from reality, or from sane > speculation, the more prefixes we add to the term, to indicate that it > came from further up the descending colon. So while, say, Trek's > "warp drive" is merely pararectal, the way the universal translator > *immediately* recognizes languages is hyperpararectal technology, and > the bogon-particle-du-jour is superhyperpararectal particle physics. > > [/tangent] > Pararectal equates nicely with "wild ass guess." :) W From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Mon Nov 10 09:08:43 2003 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 09:08:43 -0800 Subject: Below Hypothesis Message-ID: Actually, I think that would be half-assed guess, James Griffin, Stil Another Vlad faN *snip* > > The more the science/tech deviates from reality, or from sane > > speculation, the more prefixes we add to the term, to indicate that it > > came from further up the descending colon. So while, say, Trek's > > "warp drive" is merely pararectal, the way the universal translator > > *immediately* recognizes languages is hyperpararectal technology, and > > the bogon-particle-du-jour is superhyperpararectal particle physics. > > > > [/tangent] > > > >Pararectal equates nicely with "wild ass guess." :) > >W _________________________________________________________________ Send a QuickGreet with MSN Messenger http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/cdp_games From bio_phy at hotmail.com Mon Nov 10 10:07:51 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 12:07:51 -0600 Subject: Nanowrimo 2003 (why didn't somebody tell me!) Message-ID: http://www.nanowrimo.org/index.php There is apparently a contest going on here in November that is right down my alley: "National Novel Writing Month is a fun, seat-of-your-pants approach to novel writing. Participants begin writing November 1. The goal is to write a 175-page (50,000-word) novel by midnight, November 30. Valuing enthusiasm and perseverance over talent and craft, NaNoWriMo is a novel-writing program for everyone who has thought fleetingly about writing a novel but has been scared away by the time and effort involved. Because of the limited writing window, the ONLY thing that matters in NaNoWriMo is output. It's all about quantity, not quality. The kamikaze approach forces you to lower your expectations, take risks, and write on the fly." The good news is that I could use something like this to jump-start my writing. The bad news is that it's already November 10th! It appears that writing 2400 words per day for the next 21 days will *just* put me over, but can I find the time to invent something in 21 days? I'm thinking of taking a very raw shot at the Aerie work for this contest and then cleaning it up. Perhaps I'll try my hand at a prequel or something. Here are the main elements: What: Writing one 50,000-word novel from scratch in a month's time. Who: You! We can't do this unless we have some other people trying it as well. Let's write laughably awful yet lengthy prose together. Why: The reasons are endless! To actively participate in one of our era's most enchanting art forms! To write without having to obsess over quality. To be able to make obscure references to passages from your novel at parties. To be able to mock real novelists who dawdle on and on, taking far longer than 30 days to produce their work. When: Writing begins November 1, 2003. To be added to the official list of winners, you must reach the 50,000-word mark by November 30 at midnight. Once your novel has been verified by our web-based team of robotic word counters, the partying begins. I'm pretty sure I can write 2400 words of crap per day - I'm just not sure I *want* to. So, is anyone else "in"? johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ "There are only three rules to writing a novel; unfortunately, no one knows what they are." --Somerset Maugham (Here's another article with a little more information: http://houstonpress.com/issues/2003-10-30/calendar3.html/1/index.html Roughing It Cancel all your plans this month; you've got a novel to write BY KEITH PLOCEK "The only way I can get anything written at all is to write really, really shitty first drafts." -- Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird For many would-be literary types, writing a novel is a one-day endeavor, as in "One day, I'm going to write a novel." Most people never get around to it, or they become incredibly frustrated once they begin. "You feel like you need to live up to all your fiction-writing heroes. It never does, but the thing you read that so inspired you also sucked really badly when they first wrote it," says Chris Baty, the founder of an ingenious enterprise designed to help writers overcome the potentially crippling fear of a shitty first draft. Four years ago, Baty founded National Novel Writing Month (NaNoWriMo), a time for the budding novelist in all of us to spew forth pages upon pages of really sloppy prose. "It appeals to people who don't see themselves as writers, who are kind of a little intimidated by the idea of serious writing," he says. Here's the deal: Participants must write a 50,000-word novel during the month of November. That's 1,667 freakin' words a day. Word counts are determined by an online computer that couldn't care less how good, bad or ugly each work is. Quantity trumps quality in NaNoWriMo. It's the literary equivalent of mining with dynamite; these novelists blow up an entire mountain in search of a few nuggets of pure gold. And an adventure. "It's fun to pretend you're a novelist," says Baty. "It's like being a kid again, where you got to be the crazy BMX hero or the spaceship captain or whatever. As adults, we don't get to do that enough." Thanks to online message boards, participants have the comfort of knowing they're not alone in their maniacal missions. The boards are a place where harried writers can find support, as well as inspiration, through friendly competition. "Every morning you're running through the list of people you know and trying to find out how far they got the night before," says Jennifer Bryant, the head of the Houston chapter of NaNoWriMo. "If you're focusing so much on beating someone, you're not worrying about the fact that what you're writing is crap," adds Rebecca Elsenheimer, one of Bryant's amicable competitors. The message boards are also full of novelists' wacky challenges to each other. "Last year, I had to insert a drunken grandma at Thanksgiving dinner singing 'Kum Ba Yuck' instead of 'Kum Ba Yah.' It worked out very nicely to the point that if I do try to get it published, I'm leaving it in," boasts Bryant. So what kind of frantic novels are people churning out? "You've got everybody doing everything. The nice part about it is that there are no set rules about what you have to do," Bryant says. Like many of the participants, Baty finds the desire to create a rough masterpiece much greater than the urge to polish it. "I find revising novels to be one of the hugest, most painful, hurts-your-brain-in-really-bad-ways processes," he says. "You've created this Byzantine world and suddenly you have to perform microsurgery on it. It's too bad, because all the novels that we've read that have just completely blown our minds have just been revised and revised." No worries: There's always National Novel Editing Month in March. _________________________________________________________________ Send a QuickGreet with MSN Messenger http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/cdp_games From gomi at speakeasy.net Mon Nov 10 10:27:43 2003 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:27:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Nanowrimo 2003 (why didn't somebody tell me!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Johne Cook wrote: > http://www.nanowrimo.org/index.php > > There is apparently a contest going on here in November that is right down > my alley: > > "National Novel Writing Month is a fun, seat-of-your-pants approach to novel > writing. Participants begin writing November 1. The goal is to write a > 175-page (50,000-word) novel by midnight, November 30. Nano is fun. I died at 1500 words last year, and am at 500 so far this month. But hope springs eternal -- I'll see how much catching up I can do. pe From zarkon at illrepute.org Mon Nov 10 11:25:32 2003 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 14:25:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Nanowrimo 2003 (why didn't somebody tell me!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Johne Cook wrote: @> http://www.nanowrimo.org/index.php Been working on this. Probably going to booch it. From bio_phy at hotmail.com Mon Nov 10 11:30:15 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 13:30:15 -0600 Subject: Nanowrimo 2003 (why didn't somebody tell me!) Message-ID: "booch it"? That's a new term on me... johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ "There are only three rules to writing a novel; unfortunately, no one knows what they are." --Somerset Maugham >From: John Klein >Been working on this. Probably going to booch it. _________________________________________________________________ Frustrated with dial-up? Get high-speed for as low as $26.95. https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.) From bonham15 at cox.net Mon Nov 10 12:08:01 2003 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 14:08:01 -0600 Subject: Sethra's House, the Necromancer (sans spoilers) References: <20031108234337.89401.qmail@web21103.mail.yahoo.com> <1068438142.2083.17.camel@loiosh> <73E78347-138E-11D8-891D-000393D1260C@mac.com> Message-ID: <002201c3a7c6$57fdcd40$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Klahn" To: "Drageara List" Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 8:59 AM Subject: Re: Sethra's House, the Necromancer (sans spoilers) > > On Nov 9, 2003, at 22:22 , Jag wrote: > > > On Sat, 2003-11-08 at 18:43, Caliann the Elf wrote: > > > >> S > >> > >> P > >> > >> O > >> > >> I > >> > >> L > >> > >> E > >> > >> R > >> > >> Those of us that have read Issola know that Lady Teldra's soul was > >> "eaten" in such a way, but that Vlad managed to retrieve it and > >> "embed" it , per se, with Spellbreaker. And so was GodSlayer born. > >> > >> During that creation, Vlad mentioned gathering Lady Teldra as "grey > >> threads". It is entirely possible that Morganti weapons don't so > >> much destroy the soul as they shred it....they just hold it within > >> them. > > > > That's different. That's a GW, more or less. Just like in Jhereg > > Aliera manages to not be killed by a Morganti weapon by having > > Pathfinder hold onto her soul. That trick was only possible because > > Pathfinder is a GW, and likewise, the blade that 'ate' Lady Teldra was > > a > > GW, or at least a part of it. And a part of a GW that was eating > > another part of the same GW, therefore the same rules don't apply. > > > > > > Jag > > > > Well, I have to say that I disagree with this. The Morganti dagger that > eventually becomes Godslayer wasn't really part of a GW until combined > with Spellbreaker, and Teldra was struck down before that combination. > So, at the point that the dagger pierced Teldra's skin (and she would > have been "eaten"), it was just a plain-ol', run-of-the-mill, > copper-penny-a-dozen, somewhat strongish (IIRC) Morganti dagger. Had > Spellbreaker never touched the dagger, Teldra would have fared the same > fate as, say, Napper. Wait, that's a whole 'nother discussion... remember that no matter how powerful that morganti was, it was still chewing on a jenoine power source via teldra's backstab....it was a bit overloaded and probably a bit stunned from trying to take a bite out of what is essentially a god... and even napper took a second or two to die.... that scene played out relatively quickly imho, even though it seemed forever to vlad... and who the hell knows what effect tossing spellbreaker around the hilt had too. that could have easily started to play havoc with the dagger's digestive tract. andy From Talpianna at aol.com Mon Nov 10 12:27:47 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 15:27:47 EST Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/10/2003 12:12:57 AM US Mountain Standard Time, philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU writes: >I don't see "sometime in the last 250 years" as any sort of evidence > >for the Skinter (what's below hypothesis?) > > Suggestion? > Notion? > Idea? > Pulled-from-out-of-arse wild speculation? I'm looking for some philosophy-of-science-blessed term, if possible with a Greek root.... How about "presumption," with another meaning that puts a sting in its tail? Only a Latin root, I fear. talpianna From jetdragon at comcast.net Mon Nov 10 12:31:36 2003 From: jetdragon at comcast.net (jetdragon at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 20:31:36 +0000 Subject: Nanowrimo 2003 (why didn't somebody tell me!) Message-ID: <111020032031.12327.62b4@comcast.net> Johne Cook wrote: > http://www.nanowrimo.org/index.php > > There is apparently a contest going on here in November that is right > down my alley: > > "National Novel Writing Month is a fun, seat-of-your-pants approach > to novel writing. Participants begin writing November 1. The goal is > to write a 175-page (50,000-word) novel by midnight, November 30. > I'm trying it this year. Only at just over 1000 words, but I can hope... Jessica From Talpianna at aol.com Mon Nov 10 12:32:16 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 15:32:16 EST Subject: Below Hypothesis Message-ID: <1ea.12dea4cc.2ce14fd0@aol.com> In a message dated 11/10/2003 12:57:20 AM US Mountain Standard Time, davids at kithrup.com writes: "Idea" is Greek. How about "ideation"? More to the point, "*pararectal* ideation"? OK, so "rectum" is latin, but "para" is definitely Greek. Or "paracolonic"? tal From bio_phy at hotmail.com Mon Nov 10 12:34:22 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 14:34:22 -0600 Subject: Nanowrimo 2003 (why didn't somebody tell me!) Message-ID: I managed to pull a theme out of the air and get 911 words in at lunch. The sheer amount of imagiination to come up with 50,000 words in 21 words is so daunting that I can't even think about it for now. I'm just trying to figure how I'm going to get 2400 words in knowing that the Packers are playing the Eagles tonight at hallowed Lambeau Field... johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ "There are only three rules to writing a novel; unfortunately, no one knows what they are." --Somerset Maugham >From: jetdragon at comcast.net >I'm trying it this year. Only at just over 1000 words, but I can hope... > >Jessica _________________________________________________________________ Compare high-speed Internet plans, starting at $26.95. https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.) From zarkon at illrepute.org Mon Nov 10 12:49:29 2003 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 15:49:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Nanowrimo 2003 (why didn't somebody tell me!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Johne Cook wrote: @> "booch it"? That's a new term on me... Sorry, too much http://www.puzzlepirates.com - booch means "mess up" in Pirate. At this point, I've got nothing but little scraps and a general plot outline. It strikes me that Paarfi and Paarfi-esque writers would be very good at Nanowrimo. Hell, it could be Nanowriwe instead. From bio_phy at hotmail.com Mon Nov 10 12:53:42 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 14:53:42 -0600 Subject: Nanowrimo 2003 (why didn't somebody tell me!) Message-ID: lol. I was thinking about that, to be honest, but decided that it's better exercise for me to play it fairly straight. Besides, I'm afraid that once started, I couldn't stop. ;) Seriously, I'd feel like I was straying into hallowed territory. I'm going to sink or swim with my own devices, I think. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ "There are only three rules to writing a novel; unfortunately, no one knows what they are." --Somerset Maugham >It strikes me that Paarfi and Paarfi-esque writers would be very good at >Nanowrimo. Hell, it could be Nanowriwe instead. _________________________________________________________________ Is your computer infected with a virus? Find out with a FREE computer virus scan from McAfee. Take the FreeScan now! http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From davids at kithrup.com Mon Nov 10 13:04:06 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 13:04:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > >On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: >> [tangent] >> >> I have the notion that "pararectal" ought to be prefixed before >> all examples of science and technology as portrayed in the movies and >> television. So, for example, Lara Croft is pararectal archeologist. >> >> The more the science/tech deviates from reality, or from sane >> speculation, the more prefixes we add to the term, to indicate that it >> came from further up the descending colon. So while, say, Trek's >> "warp drive" is merely pararectal, the way the universal translator >> *immediately* recognizes languages is hyperpararectal technology, and >> the bogon-particle-du-jour is superhyperpararectal particle physics. > > >I think about these sorts of classification on occasion and find them >difficult. There may be a lot of particle species out there, I can >imagine how a universal translator might work, and I suspect a warp drive >violates causality, and there may be a lot of particle species out there, >so I would tend to reverse the order you present, depending on what the >bogon does for a living. The current "zoo" of nuclear and subnuclear particles is already known and (mostly) named; hypothetical unnamed particles are not found precisely because they are very difficult to create in the first place (and even most hypothetical particles are already named!). A universal translator, as depicted in Trek, *certainly* violates casuality - it knows how to map verbal expressions to concepts even when the species has just been met and it has never been exposed to the expressions before! And warping space has been tentatively identified as theoretically possible by real-world science; there's a paper out there somewhere. Now, granted, it isn't a *whole* lot like Trek's warp drive, but the concept itself is not completely absurd. >In order of increasing unlikelihood, I would put: >Santa Claus, one's neighbor's major religion, astrology. >But what do I know. I do think this kind of back-of-the-envelope >estimate would be good for tests of grad students in some field of study >which probably doesn't exist but should, and which I guess you've named. > Pararectal Quantum Bogodynamics From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Nov 10 13:12:18 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 10 Nov 2003 15:12:18 -0600 Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David Silberstein writes: > A universal translator, as depicted in Trek, *certainly* violates > casuality - it knows how to map verbal expressions to concepts even > when the species has just been met and it has never been exposed to > the expressions before! At least Doc Smith had the Arisians use their Visualization of the Cosmic All to know what the lenses would have to be able to translate. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From ambyrglow at softhome.net Mon Nov 10 13:27:43 2003 From: ambyrglow at softhome.net (Claire Rojstaczer) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 16:27:43 -0500 Subject: Nanowrimo 2003 (why didn't somebody tell me!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I'm pretty sure I can write 2400 words of crap per day - I'm just >not sure I *want* to. >So, is anyone else "in"? I did it last year, successfully, but as of today I've decided to give up on this year (though I'll probably still putter along a bit). I've got 13k words, but getting to 50k was relying on me having lots of time over Thanksgiving break, and the abrupt realization that I have a 20 page research paper due the day after that kinda killed that particular plan :-(. But it's good fun, and definitely highly recommended, and you'd be amazed at how uncrappy some of the stuff is when you look at it later. Not that there aren't pages from last year that make me wince (there are, lots). . .but there are also passages that make me sit back and go, "Wow. -I- wrote that?" Claire From davids at kithrup.com Mon Nov 10 14:11:23 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 14:11:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [slight editing to change top-post to bottom bost] On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: >On Nov 10, 2003, at 2:56 AM, David Silberstein wrote: > >> On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >> >>> On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: >>> >>>> On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >>>> >>>>> (what's below hypothesis?) >>>> >>>> Suggestion? >>>> Notion? >>>> Idea? >>>> Pulled-from-out-of-arse wild speculation? >>> >>> I'm looking for some philosophy-of-science-blessed term, if possible >>> with a Greek root.... >> >> "Idea" is Greek. How about "ideation"? More to the point, >> "*pararectal* ideation"? OK, so "rectum" is latin, but "para" is >> definitely Greek. >> > >In medicine we often use the suffix "genic" to mean "arising from" >although it actually means "giving birth to". So Rectogenic would be a >good term, alternative, anogenic, sigmoidogenic or colonogenic, >depending on how far up the idea was pulled from... When I was looking at the etymology for the the various terms, I noted that "rectum" derives from Latin "rectus", meaning "straight" (and the word "correct" is from the same root). For "para-", the OED states: As a preposition, Gr "para" had the sense 'by the side of, beside', whence 'alongside of, by, past, beyond', etc. In composition it had the same senses, with such cognate adverbial ones as 'to one side, aside, amiss, faulty, irregular, disordered, improper, wrong'; also expressing subsidiary relation, alteration, perversion, simulation, etc. So even ignoring the low, indeed, scatalogical, humor, "pararectal" could very well mean "something which just ain't right", "reasoning which is not straight" (could be bent, twisted, helical or discontinuous), and so on. It is most suitable for the sort of wild speculation I (and others) sometimes indulge in. But I like "rectogenic" as well. Hmm. I think I may start using "taurofecal" (or "taurocopral"?) as well, as in: "This politician gave a singularly taurofecal speech", or "The lawyer is notable for his extemporaneous rectogenic taurofecality". From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Nov 10 14:14:25 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 14:14:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > > > >On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > >> [tangent] > >> > >> The more the science/tech deviates from reality, or from sane > >> speculation, the more prefixes we add to the term, to indicate that it > >> came from further up the descending colon. So while, say, Trek's > >> "warp drive" is merely pararectal, the way the universal translator > >> *immediately* recognizes languages is hyperpararectal technology, and > >> the bogon-particle-du-jour is superhyperpararectal particle physics. > > > > > >I think about these sorts of classification on occasion and find them > >difficult. There may be a lot of particle species out there, I can > >imagine how a universal translator might work, and I suspect a warp drive > >violates causality, and there may be a lot of particle species out there, > >so I would tend to reverse the order you present, depending on what the > >bogon does for a living. > > The current "zoo" of nuclear and subnuclear particles is already > known and (mostly) named; hypothetical unnamed particles are not found > precisely because they are very difficult to create in the first > place (and even most hypothetical particles are already named!). I'm a particle physicist so supposedly know about this - my thesis (Measurement of the Ratio of the Invisible and Charged Leptonic Partial Widths of the Z Boson with the OPAL Detector at LEP) helped rule out some conjectured particles. There is a large group of hypothesized particles (called supersymmetric) which are indeed named, and which we hopefully will begin investigating in 5-10 years - but AFAIK there is no reason to rule out other groups of particles at higher energies. > A universal translator, as depicted in Trek, *certainly* violates > casuality - it knows how to map verbal expressions to concepts even > when the species has just been met and it has never been exposed to > the expressions before! I haven't studied the Trek translator, but I can imagine doing a brain scan of something and deducing from the connections how the language works. I think I'd look for math-type thinking structures to start with, or perhaps go from the optic processors out. It's a rather god-like ability, granted, but not (it seems to me) physically impossible. Plus it often doesn't work on creatures not like us, right? > And warping space has been tentatively identified as theoretically > possible by real-world science; there's a paper out there somewhere. > Now, granted, it isn't a *whole* lot like Trek's warp drive, but > the concept itself is not completely absurd. I'm not qualified to speculate on this, but my gut tells me that FTL travel isn't possible in this universe. > >In order of increasing unlikelihood, I would put: > >Santa Claus, one's neighbor's major religion, astrology. > >But what do I know. I do think this kind of back-of-the-envelope > >estimate would be good for tests of grad students in some field of study > >which probably doesn't exist but should, and which I guess you've named. > > > > Pararectal Quantum Bogodynamics From Talpianna at aol.com Mon Nov 10 14:17:47 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 17:17:47 EST Subject: Below Hypothesis Message-ID: <1a3.1caa153c.2ce1688b@aol.com> In a message dated 11/10/2003 3:15:40 PM US Mountain Standard Time, philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU writes: I'm not qualified to speculate on this, but my gut tells me that FTL travel isn't possible in this universe. I think the possibility is pretty well canvassed (and dismissed) in Poul Anderson's TAU ZERO. talpianna From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Nov 10 14:26:41 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 14:26:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: <1a3.1caa153c.2ce1688b@aol.com> References: <1a3.1caa153c.2ce1688b@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 Talpianna at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/10/2003 3:15:40 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU writes: >> I'm not qualified to speculate on this, but my gut tells me that FTL >> travel isn't possible in this universe. > I think the possibility is pretty well canvassed (and dismissed) in Poul > Anderson's TAU ZERO. > > talpianna What's this? Incidentally, is Poul Anderson worth reading? I must have encountered his work as a kid, but can't remember anything about him. From davids at kithrup.com Mon Nov 10 14:45:23 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 14:45:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > >> The current "zoo" of nuclear and subnuclear particles is already >> known and (mostly) named; hypothetical unnamed particles are not found >> precisely because they are very difficult to create in the first >> place (and even most hypothetical particles are already named!). > >I'm a particle physicist so supposedly know about this - my thesis >(Measurement of the Ratio of the Invisible and Charged Leptonic >Partial Widths of the Z Boson with the OPAL Detector at LEP) helped >rule out some conjectured particles. There is a large group of >hypothesized particles (called supersymmetric) which are indeed >named, and which we hopefully will begin investigating in 5-10 years >- but AFAIK there is no reason to rule out other groups of particles >at higher energies. [Feeling somewhat embarrassed - "Hey, grandma! This, you see, this is an egg, right, and you make a hole in this end, using this pin, right, and then *another* hole in the *other* end, see?, and then you put your mouth on one of the holes, doesn't matter which one, and then you *suck* the inside into your mouth, like this, fhwuuflp!"] Well, you're probably better qualified to speculate, but I note you append "at higher energies" -- if the Enterprise *was* experiencing sufficiently higher energies, wouldn't the ship have been vaporized? For that matter, wouldn't those high-energy particles quickly decay into known, lower-energy particles? > >> A universal translator, as depicted in Trek, *certainly* violates >> casuality - it knows how to map verbal expressions to concepts even >> when the species has just been met and it has never been exposed to >> the expressions before! > >I haven't studied the Trek translator, but I can imagine doing a brain >scan of something and deducing from the connections how the language >works. I think I'd look for math-type thinking structures to start >with, or perhaps go from the optic processors out. >It's a rather god-like ability, granted, but not (it seems to me) >physically impossible. But it implies a certain level of *telepathy*. If they can scan the brain's language-center, and automagically deduce miscellaneous cortical connections, they should be able to get a rough idea of what the individual is thinking even when *not* talking. Which is why DDB's example of the Arisians is more internally consistent - the Lens allows regular telepathy as well as language translation. I don't have a problem with the general idea of the universal translator, assuming magical tech, only with the inconsistent way it's been shown to work on "Trek". > Plus it often doesn't work on creatures not like us, right? I can only recall 2 episodes where it wasn't working quite transparantly - one was the moderatly famous "Darmok", and the other was an episode of DS9 where they met a new species (from the Gamma quadrant?), where it was taking longer than usual to kick in. And while it was emotionally powerful, "Darmok" made no sense linguistically. > >> And warping space has been tentatively identified as theoretically >> possible by real-world science; there's a paper out there somewhere. >> Now, granted, it isn't a *whole* lot like Trek's warp drive, but >> the concept itself is not completely absurd. > >I'm not qualified to speculate on this, but my gut tells me that FTL >travel isn't possible in this universe. > Well, I'm not qualified to speculate either, but that doesn't stop me >from occasional pararectal ideation on the subject. But not at this point in time, I think. From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Mon Nov 10 14:47:16 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 14:47:16 -0800 Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031110224716.GA6059@ofb.net> On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 03:12:18PM -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > At least Doc Smith had the Arisians use their Visualization of the > Cosmic All to know what the lenses would have to be able to > translate. Well, plus the Lenses were explicitly telepathic. The Star Trek brain scan idea fails when the aliens are in a different ship than the translator. Dealing with real first contact protocols (language acquisition, biocontainment procedures) would simply make Star Trek and Stargate SG-1 unwatchable. Or slower and more expensive, at any rate. I suspect the same was true of Crusade, although I never watched much. (You'd think a series motivated by plague would be more cautious about exploring strange planets.) -xx- Damien X-) From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Nov 10 14:51:09 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 14:51:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: <20031110224716.GA6059@ofb.net> References: <20031110224716.GA6059@ofb.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Damien Sullivan wrote: > The Star Trek brain scan idea fails when the aliens are in a different ship > than the translator. I was hoping you wouldn't mention that - but Trek tech can remotely scan the other guy, right? Anyway, wouldn't sensible aliens broadcast a grammar and dictionary a la that spaceship with the gold LP? From jtrager at keyway.net Mon Nov 10 14:51:25 2003 From: jtrager at keyway.net (Trager) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 14:51:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Below Hypothesis Message-ID: <200311102251.hAAMpPtK007494@shrek.keyway.net> > What's this? Incidentally, is Poul Anderson worth reading? I must have > encountered his work as a kid, but can't remember anything about him. Short answer: yes. Medium answer: If you like classic sci-fi, you'll probably like at least some of Anderson's stuff. Personally, I like his Psychotechnic/Polesotechnic/Falkayn universe quite a bit (and I have a good 10-15 books of that universe and I'm still missing a number of 'em). His standalone stuff ranges from so-so to really good. His book "Brain- Wave" features some really cool ideas, although it's not much more than a novella. Although I haven't read them, I've heard very good things about his Ys books (written with his wife Karen). If you have a decent used bookstore near you, I can almost guarantee that you'll find some Anderson there. The guy has written a ton of sci- fi. From greyw01f at hotmail.com Mon Nov 10 14:57:20 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 22:57:20 +0000 Subject: Sethra's House, the Necromancer (avec spoilers) Message-ID: SPOILER SPACE Okay, I'm gonna write a story for all you guys. The POV is that nice little Morganti knife that Vlad has in the end of _Issola_. I'll start at the point just after Morrolan is killed. Forgive my little mistakes, there's only one important hypothesis to this narrative. The rest is just me not writing philosophy essays. So there I was, in my sheathe. Around me raged something. Something strong. I don't know what was happening, but it made me very very hungry. And then suddenly, at long last, I was free, pulled by a hand whose rage flowed around me like blood in my lines (very bad pun there, sorry). This rage was consuming. I rather liked it, actually. I quite rapidly found myself being swung at high velocity into what would have been the kidney of a being who obviously wasn't a normal being. To make a bit of an understatement, he tasted REALLY good. It was ecstasy, it was insane power coursing through my halls, it was the blood of a God that wet my metal blade. Whatever it was, I knew right then that I would never get any more satisfaction from drinking normal mortals. Godsblood. Gotta get me somma that. I heard one of them call me Godslayer eventually. If I had shoulders, I would have shrugged. Cancel that, if I had shoulders, then I would have had arms, and then I would have used those arms to stab at whoever was around me. But by that point, something had happened to me. There was a soul that directed my powers. That soul wasn't nearly as hungry as I was, which bodes none too good for when I finally get free. Now you guys have to remember that Morgantis are sentient. The more powerful they are, the greater the sentience. Godslayer is in the top three with Iceflame, and that Morganti wannabe, the Orb. Regardless of however Teldra and Vlad and Spellbreaker subdued the sentience in the blade and overlaid Teldra's consciousness onto it, the fact remains that there *is* still a sentience in there that is a vicious killer. And that killer has tasted what I'm reasonably sure no other blade has *ever* tasted before. Can you imagine the blood of a God to a Morganti blade? I think that, fate notwithstanding, any blade would have been driven crazy if it got somma that. hehehehe Godslayer Jr. would be the name of a less powerful base morganti with the same recipe that went into its construction, assuming you could get another Spellbreaker, which you can't. Jon _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Nov 10 15:01:07 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 10 Nov 2003 17:01:07 -0600 Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: References: <1a3.1caa153c.2ce1688b@aol.com> Message-ID: Philip Hart writes: > On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 Talpianna at aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 11/10/2003 3:15:40 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > > philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU writes: > >> I'm not qualified to speculate on this, but my gut tells me that FTL > >> travel isn't possible in this universe. > > > I think the possibility is pretty well canvassed (and dismissed) in Poul > > Anderson's TAU ZERO. > > > > talpianna > > > > What's this? Incidentally, is Poul Anderson worth reading? I must have > encountered his work as a kid, but can't remember anything about him. Generally speaking, very much so. His work runs from above-average (for the period) to first-rate. Some of his later works continuing earlier series may revert more to the standards of when the initial part of the series was written. _Tau Zero_ is something of a classic. A lot of the stories in the "technic" history, including the Dominic Flandry tales and the Nicholas Van Rijn tales, are still worth reading, especially the early to middle examples. The early Hoka stories (with Gordy Dickson) are among the more amusing humorous works from the period. Some of his fantasy was first-rate, too, to the point where we had him as guest of honor for the 1993 World Fantasy Convention in Minneapolis. And then there's _Operation Chaos_, an early magic-as-technology story. Very much worth reading all around. He's written such a wide variety of stuff that you'll probably find areas you don't much care for; if so don't bang your head against the wall, try something else. (I don't care for his mythological stories much, stuff like _The King of Ys_). -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Nov 10 15:06:54 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 15:06:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > >I'm a particle physicist so supposedly know about this - my thesis [...] > >- but AFAIK there is no reason to rule out other groups of particles > >at higher energies. > > [Feeling somewhat embarrassed - "Hey, grandma! This, you see, [...] Don't be - see below. > Well, you're probably better qualified to speculate, but I note you > append "at higher energies" -- if the Enterprise *was* experiencing > sufficiently higher energies, wouldn't the ship have been vaporized? This is not my problem to explain - it sure looks like they're at rest in a one-g field all the time... > For that matter, wouldn't those high-energy particles quickly decay > into known, lower-energy particles? Depends - new particles might be very light but unable to decay because of symmetry laws - say electron-positron collisions can produce teckla-antiteckla particles - the (anti)teckla particle might be immortal because of conservation of tecklaness... Anyway, your basic point is right - it's hard to come up with new particles that interact with normal matter, or even abnormal matter. That's one reason why particle physics is so difficult. But reading brains and FTL are probably harder. > I can only recall 2 episodes where it wasn't working quite > transparantly - one was the moderatly famous "Darmok", and the other > was an episode of DS9 where they met a new species (from the Gamma > quadrant?), where it was taking longer than usual to kick in. I thought they keep meeting things that require telepaths to communicate with, or which telepaths can't talk to so everybody nearly dies. > And while it was emotionally powerful, "Darmok" made no sense > linguistically. That's the one with the guy who says, Foo and Bar at the gate of Blah? I remember thinking, wow, great episode, and how can I like something so dumb? From davids at kithrup.com Mon Nov 10 15:47:13 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 15:47:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10 Nov 2003, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >Philip Hart writes: > >> Incidentally, is Poul Anderson worth reading? >Generally speaking, very much so. His work runs from above-average >(for the period) to first-rate. Some of his later works continuing >earlier series may revert more to the standards of when the initial >part of the series was written. [snip] >Very much worth reading all around. He's written such a wide variety >of stuff that you'll probably find areas you don't much care for; if >so don't bang your head against the wall, try something else. As a particle physicist, you might get a chuckle out of Anderson's short work "Uncleftish Beholding". It's a bit of a linguistic exercise rather than an actual story; the entire text is basic science written in Anglo-Saxon or Germanic words and phrases where we would use terms from Latin or Greek derived roots. As you might guess, an "uncleft" is an "atom", and it goes on from there. -- "Nor are stuff and work unakin. Rather, they are groundwise the same, and one can be shifted into the other. The kinship between them is that work is like unto weight manifolded by the fourside of the haste of light." -- Poul Anderson, "Uncleftish Beholding" From Talpianna at aol.com Mon Nov 10 15:56:54 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 18:56:54 EST Subject: Below Hypothesis Message-ID: Poul Anderson was a Grand Master; he produced an awful lot of SF and fantasy, and most of it is worth reading. Tau Zero is about an interstellar space ship on which essentially the brakes fail, and they keep on accelerating and accelerating..... Tau Zero is the figure that represents exactly how close it is possible to come to the speed of light. I also recommend his THE HIGH CRUSADE and THREE HEARTS AND THREE LIONS. I used to know him when I was a grad student at UC Berkeley (back when the earth's crust had barely cooled); he was a very nice man indeed. He used to give a party every year on Bilbo's Birthday at his place in Orinda. I generally prefer his fantasy; others will probably have stronger recommendations in his SF. tal From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Nov 10 17:19:45 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 17:19:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > As a particle physicist, you might get a chuckle out of Anderson's > short work "Uncleftish Beholding". It's a bit of a linguistic > exercise rather than an actual story; the entire text is basic science > written in Anglo-Saxon or Germanic words and phrases where we would > use terms from Latin or Greek derived roots. As you might guess, an > "uncleft" is an "atom", and it goes on from there. This is another kind of thing I think about a lot - I believe this piece comes across as a stunt more than anything else. Some works - like the French novel by Perec, translated as A Void (because the work eschews the letter "e") - turn a literary exercise into something powerful, if one's tolerance for play is high enough. For comparison, check out this recent poem, which has two "stunt" features, but ones which are intended to support the content: http://www.slac.stanford.edu/~philiph/bagel.htm From mam at theworld.com Mon Nov 10 17:43:12 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 20:43:12 -0500 Subject: Fw: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: <003b01c3a554$46494a30$c9d1fdd8@pentium4> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Nov 2003, Charlie Smith wrote: # Devera).... I am curious as to how OFTEN we hit the mark with some of our # hypothesis(plural?). Plural is "hypotheses", with a long "ee" in the last syllable: high - POTH - uh - seez -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Mon Nov 10 18:09:27 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 21:09:27 -0500 Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: #As a particle physicist, you might get a chuckle out of Anderson's #short work "Uncleftish Beholding". It's a bit of a linguistic #exercise rather than an actual story; the entire text is basic science #written in Anglo-Saxon or Germanic words and phrases where we would #use terms from Latin or Greek derived roots. As you might guess, an #"uncleft" is an "atom", and it goes on from there. I LOVE that one! (I'm a linguist...). Actually, there is *one* Romance-derived word in the whole text. The Periodic Table is "the Roundaround Board of the Firststuffs". "Round" is from Latin by way of French. The native English root for that concept, "ym" (compare modern German "um"), was completely replaced; it has left no reflexes -- uh, no traces -- in modern English that I'm aware of, and Anderson simply had to use the import to express the meaning. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From frank at exit.com Mon Nov 10 18:38:53 2003 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 18:38:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fw: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200311110238.hAB2cr7G061911@realtime.exit.com> Mark A Mandel wrote: > Plural is "hypotheses", with a long "ee" in the last syllable: > high - POTH - uh - seez The problem with "hypotheseseseses" is knowing when to stop. "Hypotheseseseseseses..." -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Mon Nov 10 18:44:36 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 21:44:36 -0500 Subject: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler) In-Reply-To: <000701c3a562$8b1086c0$0101a8c0@sweetdrewydscc> References: <000701c3a562$8b1086c0$0101a8c0@sweetdrewydscc> Message-ID: <20031111024436.GA99445@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 07:07:51PM -0000, Mark Tiller wrote: > Spoiler Space I'm not going to quote most of Marks post, but will say he did a fine job. Some related items -- Vlads training has been going on since his boyhood. Sethra, in the person of Kiera, has been training him to be subtle, to be stealthy, and to operate with forethought when possible and with his wits when forthought fails. She's taught him to be ruthless with his enemies and honorable with his friends, both to the limits of his life. At one point Sethra speaks of Vlad and says explicitly something like "That's what Vlad was trained for." (Sorry, can't remember the textref). > "Others have skills that might someday be useful, and those are held in the > Paths of the Dead against that use, or reincarnated into circumstances where > their skills can develop." I don't believe it was a co-incidence that Vlad (Dolivar) was not reincarnated until he's needed as an Easterner. I base that both on what Brust has done explicitly with the slam-bang action sequences and what one could divine about him from the politics that came between Vlad and Cawti. > D. If Verra simply was kept in the dark by the other gods about Godslayer, > did they make him an Easterner so he couldn't get back into the Paths of the > Dead carrying a weapon that could destroy them. Keiron had his sword, so > weapons can go with you. This goes to an interesting point, and a conjecture I have about Sethra Lavode. The gods, in spite of being, well, Gods, are pretty damned incompetant about dealing with the Jenoine. They also seem perfectly willing to not do anything significant about it for nearly 100,000 years. Oh, they *worry* about the Jenoine, but they've been reactive, not proactive. This is undoubtably a pain in the ass to their major protector, Sethra Lavode. With Vlad Taltos, she is developing an agent whose specialty is to act, act quickly, and act with deadly accuracy. Who trained Vlad in this? Who put him on the path to obtain Spellbreaker? Who was responsible for him meeting Morrolan? Who was responsible for him meeting Aliera and learning to manifest chaos? Sethra Lavode, Sethra Lavode, Sethra Lavode, and Sethra Lavode. She's created what may become the most dangerous enemy the Jenoine have ever had? She nurtured him, trained him, and put the weapon into his hand. All that remains is to motivate him. Oh, she's not omniscient. She expected Godslayer, but not via the person of Lady Teldra. But I bet many of her other 'mistakes' (how she 'misunderstood' Vlad in her initial dealings with him, which is utterly unbelievable given how long Kiera has known him) have not been mistakes at all. Lately I've been coming to believe that her motivation in this is two-fold. The first is simply that she wants the war over. For this to work, someone who can manipulate chaos must somehow seal the doors that let the Jenoine access Dragaera (and vice-versa). IMHO this may required the deactivation of both the greater and lesser Seas. That becomes the effective end of Dragaeran society as we know it. It likely means the end of the Cycle. No Dragaeran (and possibly none of the Gods) would pay that price. But an Easterner might, and might be glad to see it done. And when the War is over, Sethra Lavode can die. Ultimately, that's what I think she wants -- to lay down this burden and be done of it. But the Gods won't let her. They've even sent her back after her own death. So to finish, Sethra Lavode has to end the war. To end it, she has to develop better tools than what the Gods will give her. Vlad is her tool, but only one of them. Morrolan and Kiera are others. It would not surprise me to find Adrons experiments with pre-Empire sorcery were a result of a subtle push from Sethra. The Lesser Sea might not have been her intent, but it's another tool that she's clearly willing to use. IMHO, when (if) we see what's really going on, Sethra Lavode will be revealed as the prime manipulator. Even the Gods aren't as clever as she is, and by the time Vlad is dead we will all know it. From akodobob at sbcglobal.net Mon Nov 10 18:55:23 2003 From: akodobob at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 18:55:23 -0800 Subject: Below Hypothesis References: <20031110224716.GA6059@ofb.net> Message-ID: <008001c3a7ff$5b8ecc50$6501a8c0@DELL1> > Dealing with real first contact protocols (language acquisition, > biocontainment procedures) would simply make Star Trek and Stargate SG-1 > unwatchable. Or slower and more expensive, at any rate. I suspect the same > was true of Crusade, although I never watched much. (You'd think a series > motivated by plague would be more cautious about exploring strange planets.) > > -xx- Damien X-) For Biocontainment, Star Trek had special immunizations and personal containment fields. And I believe Crusade, though I've watched very little of it as well, had both a telepath and a technomage. It would be odd if it wasn't explained, since JMS was amazing in constructing Babylon 5. Akodo Bob -not quite a Trekkie, but who wonders what the name for B5 fans is. From lmbrassard at yahoo.com Mon Nov 10 18:59:25 2003 From: lmbrassard at yahoo.com (Laurie Brassard) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 18:59:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Nanowrimo 2003 (why didn't somebody tell me!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031111025925.61324.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Claire Rojstaczer wrote: > >I'm pretty sure I can write 2400 words of crap per > day - I'm just > >not sure I *want* to. > > >So, is anyone else "in"? > As of yesterday I changed gears from "write a novel in a month" to "finish a short story I've been working on all year by the end of this month", so I guess I'm officially off the wagon. But still on the trail, I'd say. I tried it last year, as well. I started without a plot and ended up writing diddly but generating a few ideas I developed all year, so it was worth it in the end. My advice to anyone is to give it a try but don't set yourself up to be crushed if you don't finish. Oh, and I think working full-time and having a toddler can reduce your word count to 25,000 with no guilt. Or maybe that's just me. In any case, good luck to all. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree From Talpianna at aol.com Mon Nov 10 19:22:14 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 22:22:14 EST Subject: Fw: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) Message-ID: <15a.27331152.2ce1afe6@aol.com> In a message dated 11/10/2003 6:50:15 PM US Mountain Standard Time, mam at theworld.com writes: Plural is "hypotheses", with a long "ee" in the last syllable: high - POTH - uh - seez -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel Yes, but what does Dr. Eszterhazy think? tal From Talpianna at aol.com Mon Nov 10 19:29:03 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 22:29:03 EST Subject: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler) Message-ID: <9.1bfbbdc4.2ce1b17f@aol.com> In a message dated 11/10/2003 7:53:31 PM US Mountain Standard Time, scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us writes: IMHO, when (if) we see what's really going on, Sethra Lavode will be revealed as the prime manipulator. Even the Gods aren't as clever as she is, and by the time Vlad is dead we will all know it. I wonder if the "Gods" (who seem surprisingly limited in many ways) are really a fancier or splinter version of the Jenoine? And if in a head-to-head confrontation, if any one if them is truly more powerful than Sethra Lavode? Plus the fact that she has such lovely silky creamy fur--oh, sorry! That's my KITTEN Sethra Lavode! (Aliera is the one that bites everyone and anything, but Sethra is a very old soul indeed.) talpianna From Talpianna at aol.com Mon Nov 10 19:31:29 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 22:31:29 EST Subject: Below Hypothesis Message-ID: <12d.343c4ede.2ce1b211@aol.com> In a message dated 11/10/2003 8:00:32 PM US Mountain Standard Time, akodobob at sbcglobal.net writes: Akodo Bob -not quite a Trekkie, but who wonders what the name for B5 fans is. Babblers? tal, who is one From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Mon Nov 10 19:44:25 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 19:44:25 -0800 Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: References: <1068437165.2083.9.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: <2nm0rvgvha643sffqvb7hcg6ctc45kchlc@4ax.com> On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 20:23:03 -0800 (PST), you wrote: >I don't see "sometime in the last 250 years" as any sort of evidence >for the Skinter (what's below hypothesis?) Conjecture? Surmisal? -- laz I am the Dread Pirate Roberts #23546. Ask me about franchise opportunities! From wyrmouroboros at comcast.net Mon Nov 10 20:04:01 2003 From: wyrmouroboros at comcast.net (wyrmouroboros at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 04:04:01 +0000 Subject: Issola: Great Weapons Again (was: Sethra's House, the Necromancer) Message-ID: <111120030404.27777.4f26@comcast.net> > >> It is entirely possible that Morganti weapons don't so > >> much destroy the soul as they shred it....they just hold it within > >> them. > Well, I have to say that I disagree with this. The Morganti dagger that > eventually becomes Godslayer wasn't really part of a GW until combined > with Spellbreaker, and Teldra was struck down before that combination. > So, at the point that the dagger pierced Teldra's skin (and she would > have been "eaten"), it was just a plain-ol', run-of-the-mill, > copper-penny-a-dozen, somewhat strongish (IIRC) Morganti dagger. Had > Spellbreaker never touched the dagger, Teldra would have fared the same > fate as, say, Napper. Wait, that's a whole 'nother discussion... > Matthew S. Klahn I put together a fairly coherent theory regarding Napper (for Pathfinder), Teldra (for Godslayer), and 'the lack thereof' (for Blackwand). I'm sure you can find it in the files somewhere, but if anyone wants a personal copy, I'm sure I can dig one up. Regarding the aforementioned Morganti dagger, Vlad indicates that it is a -very- strong Morganti weapon -- 'Not a Great Weapon, but a Pretty Good Weapon', as he puts it during one fight or another. After all, the Jenoine expected it to be used on the Goddess Verra, and expected it to discommode her... Thomas Crain No NaNoWriMo This Year... From davids at kithrup.com Mon Nov 10 22:17:24 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 22:17:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: >> As a particle physicist, you might get a chuckle out of Anderson's >> short work "Uncleftish Beholding". It's a bit of a linguistic >> exercise rather than an actual story; the entire text is basic science >> written in Anglo-Saxon or Germanic words and phrases where we would >> use terms from Latin or Greek derived roots. As you might guess, an >> "uncleft" is an "atom", and it goes on from there. > > >This is another kind of thing I think about a lot - I believe this piece >comes across as a stunt more than anything else. Some works - like the >French novel by Perec, translated as A Void (because the work eschews the >letter "e") - turn a literary exercise into something powerful, if one's >tolerance for play is high enough. Well, I suppose it might be a stunt; Anderson was kinda showing off his linguistic prowess. But I thought it was heaps of fun; such is my taste. >For comparison, check out this recent poem, which has two "stunt" >features, but ones which are intended to support the content: >http://www.slac.stanford.edu/~philiph/bagel.htm > I am not sure what stunt features you refer to. I see that there is alliteration and repetition, but perhaps you are referring to something more complicated? Even thought I have eaten a filling supper, I find that reading it makes me hungry all over again. Bother. Memo to self: pick up dozen freshly baked bagels. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Nov 10 22:23:37 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 22:23:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > >For comparison, check out this recent poem, which has two "stunt" > >features, but ones which are intended to support the content: > >http://www.slac.stanford.edu/~philiph/bagel.htm > > > I am not sure what stunt features you refer to. I see that there is > alliteration and repetition, but perhaps you are referring to > something more complicated? A poem about a bagel with more than 50 ingredients is imho a stunt. Also note the unusual rhyme scheme. > Even thought I have eaten a filling supper, I find that reading it > makes me hungry all over again. Bother. Memo to self: pick up > dozen freshly baked bagels. Have your baker send me a commission. Perhaps the 13th from the baker's dozen. From davids at kithrup.com Mon Nov 10 22:44:19 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 22:44:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > >> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >> >> >For comparison, check out this recent poem, which has two "stunt" >> >features, but ones which are intended to support the content: >> >http://www.slac.stanford.edu/~philiph/bagel.htm >A poem about a bagel with more than 50 ingredients is imho a stunt. But it does not read (to me) as though all of those ingredients are on the bagel at the same time. There *is* the word "or" in there, suggesting rather a plethora of possibilities, 50 different *ways* to eat that bagel. Or perhaps a sm?rg?sbord, where all of the ingredients are laid out, and sundry combinations can be tried. And a poem about all of them is apparantly the work of an hungry hedonist, rather than necessarily a stunt. But what do I know? >> Even thought I have eaten a filling supper, I find that reading it >> makes me hungry all over again. Bother. Memo to self: pick up >> dozen freshly baked bagels. > >Have your baker send me a commission. Perhaps the 13th from the >baker's dozen. > Well, and I am indeed tempted to do just that. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Nov 10 22:53:32 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 22:53:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > >On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > > > >> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > >> > >> >For comparison, check out this recent poem, which has two "stunt" > >> >features, but ones which are intended to support the content: > >> >http://www.slac.stanford.edu/~philiph/bagel.htm > > >A poem about a bagel with more than 50 ingredients is imho a stunt. > > But it does not read (to me) as though all of those ingredients are > on the bagel at the same time. There *is* the word "or" in there, > suggesting rather a plethora of possibilities, 50 different *ways* to > eat that bagel. Or perhaps a sm?rg?sbord, where all of the > ingredients are laid out, and sundry combinations can be tried. Ok, I'm happy to be in Paul Simon territory. The "or"s are in there in part because too many "and"s become unbearable, and "or" sounds nicer. And because I use "xor" for "exclusive or". Uhh, no I don't. Re sm?rg?sbord (awesome to see that appear on my screen so nicely seasoned), I thought about putting lutkefish on the bagel but decided it would be a bit much for breakfast. Not to mention the meter and rhyme scheme. Ok, this is a vaguely Dragaeran post because of the food, but only vaguely. From davids at kithrup.com Mon Nov 10 23:02:55 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 23:02:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: [ http://www.slac.stanford.edu/~philiph/bagel.htm ] > >Ok, this is a vaguely Dragaeran post because of the food, but only >vaguely. > Along with the coffee, she brought us each a sample of the of the house bread -- a small, round loaf with a hole in the middle, cut horizontally and and lightly toasted. I tried it. "Not bad," I said. "This would be good with smoked pinkfish and buttercheese." "And a bit of onion," agreed Teldra. -- /Issola/, chapter 1 From pulmon at comcast.net Tue Nov 11 02:58:06 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 05:58:06 -0500 Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: <15a.27331152.2ce1afe6@aol.com> References: <15a.27331152.2ce1afe6@aol.com> Message-ID: Since this seems to be a linguistically talented group, can anyone, using the below hypotheses, provide me with the singular of "feces"? On Nov 10, 2003, at 10:22 PM, Talpianna at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/10/2003 6:50:15 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > mam at theworld.com writes: > Plural is "hypotheses", with a long "ee" in the last syllable: > high - POTH - uh - seez > > -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and > Philological Busybody > a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel > Yes, but what does Dr. Eszterhazy think? > > tal From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue Nov 11 07:22:12 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 07:22:12 -0800 Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031111152212.GA27690@ofb.net> On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 10:53:32PM -0800, Philip Hart wrote: http://www.slac.stanford.edu/~philiph/bagel.htm > it would be a bit much for breakfast. Not to mention the meter and rhyme > scheme. Er, what are the meter and rhyme scheme? I don't see anything regular, apart >from all the lines ending in 'l'. -xx- Damien X-) From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Tue Nov 11 07:50:53 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 10:50:53 -0500 Subject: Issola: Great Weapons Again (was: Sethra's House, the Necromancer) In-Reply-To: <111120030404.27777.4f26@comcast.net> References: <111120030404.27777.4f26@comcast.net> Message-ID: <3FB1055D.8010207@earthlink.net> wyrmouroboros at comcast.net wrote: >>>>It is entirely possible that Morganti weapons don't so >>>>much destroy the soul as they shred it....they just hold it within >>>>them. >>>> >>>> >>Well, I have to say that I disagree with this. The Morganti dagger that >>eventually becomes Godslayer wasn't really part of a GW until combined >>with Spellbreaker, and Teldra was struck down before that combination. >>So, at the point that the dagger pierced Teldra's skin (and she would >>have been "eaten"), it was just a plain-ol', run-of-the-mill, >>copper-penny-a-dozen, somewhat strongish (IIRC) Morganti dagger. Had >>Spellbreaker never touched the dagger, Teldra would have fared the same >>fate as, say, Napper. Wait, that's a whole 'nother discussion... >>Matthew S. Klahn >> >> > >I put together a fairly coherent theory regarding Napper (for Pathfinder), Teldra (for Godslayer), and 'the lack thereof' (for Blackwand). I'm sure you can find it in the files somewhere, but if anyone wants a personal copy, I'm sure I can dig one up. Regarding the aforementioned Morganti dagger, Vlad indicates that it is a -very- strong Morganti weapon -- 'Not a Great Weapon, but a Pretty Good Weapon', as he puts it during one fight or another. After all, the Jenoine expected it to be used on the Goddess Verra, and expected it to discommode her... > > I still disagree with your theory regarding Napper (for Pathfinder). After all, we're told that Barritt was "too good", standing up to the Empire and "making it stick." Thus, Morrolan concluded that Barritt had a Great Weapon, that Barritt *knew* he had a Great Weapon, and used it. No Napper necessary, as it was functioning just fine before he hid it, and I doubt that he sucked the personality out of it when he hid it. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From mam at theworld.com Tue Nov 11 09:56:59 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 12:56:59 -0500 Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: <008001c3a7ff$5b8ecc50$6501a8c0@DELL1> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Bob wrote: #Akodo Bob #-not quite a Trekkie, but who wonders what the name for B5 fans is. Babylers? -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Tue Nov 11 10:02:32 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:02:32 -0500 Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: #Since this seems to be a linguistically talented group, can anyone, #using the below hypotheses, provide me with the singular of "feces"? In Latin the word is "faeces", which is the spelling used in British English. The Latin singular is "faex". If English had imported the latter we would spell it "fex" west of the Water; but we didn't. In English there is no singular form. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Nov 11 10:50:21 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 10:50:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: <20031111152212.GA27690@ofb.net> References: <20031111152212.GA27690@ofb.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Damien Sullivan wrote: > On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 10:53:32PM -0800, Philip Hart wrote: > > http://www.slac.stanford.edu/~philiph/bagel.htm > > > it would be a bit much for breakfast. Not to mention the meter and rhyme > > scheme. > > Er, what are the meter and rhyme scheme? I don't see anything regular, apart > from all the lines ending in 'l'. That's a rhyme scheme, rather a ridiculous one. Call it a slant-rhyme scheme if you're hard-core. I think the poem's loosely iambic, more from it being in English than conscious design. But anyway, I was trying to make a joke about how foul lutefisk is (see the snippage) - just putting it into the poem would set the rhyme and meter awry. That's my last po-mo poetry joke for the year. From Talpianna at aol.com Tue Nov 11 11:05:34 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 14:05:34 EST Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) Message-ID: <118.2b57ada0.2ce28cfe@aol.com> Main Entry: fe?ces Pronunciation: 'fE-(")sEz Function: noun plural Etymology: Middle English, from Latin faec-, faex (singular) dregs Date: 14th century : bodily waste discharged through the anus : EXCREMENT From ReVibe68 at aol.com Tue Nov 11 12:18:52 2003 From: ReVibe68 at aol.com (ReVibe68 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:18:52 EST Subject: Skinters Future..... Message-ID: <1c4.11858337.2ce29e2c@aol.com> Ok. U guys are speculating whether Skinter becomes Kragar. My thought is that Kragar is Descended from Skinter. This would be a verrrry good reason for the House of the Dragon to throw Kragar e'Skinter out. Corroborating fact is that Norathar was thrown out because of the (presumed)actions of her parents I would say that Opposing Zerika and Morrolan as well as Khavvren and Aerich and Tazendra would qualify as a reason to be thrown out of the House. Politicians and Diapers have one thing in common. They should be changed regularly and for The Same Reason!!. Truth Is Truth. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Nov 11 12:37:55 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 12:37:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Skinters Future..... In-Reply-To: <1c4.11858337.2ce29e2c@aol.com> References: <1c4.11858337.2ce29e2c@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 ReVibe68 at aol.com wrote: > Ok. U guys are speculating whether Skinter becomes Kragar. My thought is > that Kragar is Descended from Skinter. This would be a verrrry good > reason for the House of the Dragon to throw Kragar e'Skinter out. As a contributing factor, I find this entirely not crazy. Kragar unconsciously wills himself invisible after 100 years of bullying. As the main factor for Morrolan's disdain - I doubt it. M's not _that_ petty. From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue Nov 11 13:06:08 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:06:08 -0800 Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: References: <008001c3a7ff$5b8ecc50$6501a8c0@DELL1> Message-ID: <20031111210608.GA2918@ofb.net> On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 12:56:59PM -0500, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Bob wrote: > > #Akodo Bob > #-not quite a Trekkie, but who wonders what the name for B5 fans is. > > Babylers? Not Babylonians, that was reserved for the people producing the show. ("Babylonian Productions") I don't remember if there ever was a good fan name. Lurkers, perhaps, now that I recall "The Lurker's Guide to Babylon-5" website. -xx- Damien X-) From warlord at dragon.com Tue Nov 11 13:10:37 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:10:37 -0500 Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: <20031111210608.GA2918@ofb.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Damien Sullivan [mailto:phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 4:06 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Below Hypothesis > > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 12:56:59PM -0500, Mark A Mandel wrote: > > On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Bob wrote: > > > > #Akodo Bob > > #-not quite a Trekkie, but who wonders what the name for B5 fans is. > > > > Babylers? > > Not Babylonians, that was reserved for the people producing the show. > ("Babylonian Productions") I don't remember if there ever was a good fan > name. > > Lurkers, perhaps, now that I recall "The Lurker's Guide to > Babylon-5" website. > > -xx- Damien X-) > Band O lonians ? Premmie-lonians ? /got nuthin W From ReVibe68 at aol.com Tue Nov 11 13:25:35 2003 From: ReVibe68 at aol.com (ReVibe68 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:25:35 EST Subject: Skinters Future..... Message-ID: <27.4afa9f5f.2ce2adcf@aol.com> In a message dated 11/11/03 3:38:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU writes: > Kragar > unconsciously wills himself invisible after 100 years of bullying. Cute. I'm thinkin that Kragar, quite simply agrees with the rest of the House in that what Skinter did was unforgivable. Perhaps He regrets being descended from the bastard but thats about it....... Politicians and Diapers have one thing in common. They should be changed regularly and for The Same Reason!!. Truth Is Truth. From mam at theworld.com Tue Nov 11 14:23:27 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 17:23:27 -0500 Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: <118.2b57ada0.2ce28cfe@aol.com> Message-ID: Give credit where due. Merriam-Webster Online, yes? On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 Talpianna at aol.com wrote: #Main Entry: fe?ces #Pronunciation: 'fE-(")sEz #Function: noun plural #Etymology: Middle English, from Latin faec-, faex (singular) dregs #Date: 14th century #: bodily waste discharged through the anus : EXCREMENT # From pulmon at comcast.net Tue Nov 11 16:05:59 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 19:05:59 -0500 Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you Dr. Whom! It is interesting that in French the proper word is also a plural, "les selles"--one never speaks of this in the singular. However, in colloquial French, the well-known term "merde" has a diminutive form used to describe a single fex: "merdon" (similar to lardon) and best translated as "turd". We may have the beginnings of a truly scatological dictionary here! On Nov 11, 2003, at 1:02 PM, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > > #Since this seems to be a linguistically talented group, can anyone, > #using the below hypotheses, provide me with the singular of "feces"? > > In Latin the word is "faeces", which is the spelling used in British > English. The Latin singular is "faex". If English had imported the > latter we would spell it "fex" west of the Water; but we didn't. In > English there is no singular form. > > -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and > Philological Busybody > a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel > > From pulmon at comcast.net Tue Nov 11 16:08:25 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 19:08:25 -0500 Subject: Kragar (was: A thought concerning Skinter's future...) In-Reply-To: <118.2b57ada0.2ce28cfe@aol.com> References: <118.2b57ada0.2ce28cfe@aol.com> Message-ID: <5622502E-14A4-11D8-8E6D-0003938F1608@comcast.net> Damn! Such talent! and on such a feculent behalf! On Nov 11, 2003, at 2:05 PM, Talpianna at aol.com wrote: > Main Entry: fe?ces > Pronunciation:'fE-(")sEz > Function:noun plural > Etymology:Middle English, from Latinfaec-, faex(singular) dregs > Date:14th century > : bodily waste discharged through the anus: EXCREMENT From jetdragon at comcast.net Tue Nov 11 16:33:26 2003 From: jetdragon at comcast.net (jetdragon at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 00:33:26 +0000 Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) Message-ID: <111220030033.1941.690a@comcast.net> Talpianna at aol.com wrote: > Plus the fact that she has such lovely silky creamy fur--oh, sorry! > That's my KITTEN Sethra Lavode! (Aliera is the one that bites > everyone and anything, but Sethra is a very old soul indeed.) I named my kitten Tazendra. She's mellowed out recently and doesn't attack everything quite as much, but I'm sure she'd have no fear going after anything bigger than she is. Anyone else nuts enough to name their pets after Dragaerans? Jessica From Talpianna at aol.com Tue Nov 11 16:44:22 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 19:44:22 EST Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/11/2003 5:33:56 PM US Mountain Standard Time, jetdragon at comcast.net writes: Anyone else nuts enough to name their pets after Dragaerans? Considering the OTHER cats in the household are called Gremlin, Tiamat, Bastet, and Shadow-cat, I think the kittens fit right in (except they are moving right out, as I am in the process of moving to the house next door). My previous kitten, who died tragically, was called Lilith. I hadn't originally intended to call a kitten after Sethra Lavode, but when I looked into her eyes, it seemed appropriate. She is going to grow into a large and significant cat. We are also in the process of acquiring a Corgi called Madame Mim, who will arrive any time now. tal From usagigoya at hotmail.com Tue Nov 11 16:48:37 2003 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 00:48:37 +0000 Subject: Steven Chest? Message-ID: I was running a search on google for Steven Brust interview and found this page. I clicked the translate option since it was not in english and when the page came up, I had to laugh... Steven Chest - the Khaavren Romances I did not realize that Brust translated that way... Steve Hubbell _________________________________________________________________ MSN Shopping upgraded for the holidays! Snappier product search... http://shopping.msn.com From bonham15 at cox.net Tue Nov 11 17:01:02 2003 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 19:01:02 -0600 Subject: Steven Chest? References: Message-ID: <001101c3a8b8$71cdfe00$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> hmmmm i'm betting its his pr0n pseudonym... i mean paarfi *has* to have a dark side right? andy > I was running a search on google for Steven Brust interview and found this > page. I clicked the translate option since it was not in english and when > the page came up, I had to laugh... > > Steven Chest - the Khaavren Romances > > I did not realize that Brust translated that way... > > Steve Hubbell > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Shopping upgraded for the holidays! Snappier product search... > http://shopping.msn.com > > From kynigos at comcast.net Tue Nov 11 18:02:28 2003 From: kynigos at comcast.net (Orion Kynigos) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 18:02:28 -0800 Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) In-Reply-To: <111220030033.1941.690a@comcast.net> Message-ID: <000f01c3a8c1$070bbc70$0202a8c0@Lexicon> >Anyone else nuts enough to name their pets after Dragaerans? Yup, named my little calico "Daro"... Quite feisty and always surprises me... -Orion ---------- Orion Kynigos "Be true to the thought of the moment and avoid distraction. Other than continuing to exert yourself, enter into nothing else, but go to the extent of living single thought by single thought." -Yamamoto Tsunetomo kynigos at comcast.net http://kynigos.home.comcast.net From casca913 at gbronline.com Tue Nov 11 22:45:10 2003 From: casca913 at gbronline.com (Charlie Smith) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 00:45:10 -0600 Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) References: Message-ID: <003901c3a8e8$8538ff50$94d2fdd8@pentium4> I dunno about pets, (although I wanted to name a black collie Morrollan once but my Ex-Wife disagreed having never read the series or anything with paper in it that wasn't a romance novel) however I have named a car, Cawti... She was a good car until she died on me in rush hour... How prophetic or me.... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 6:44 PM Subject: Re: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) > In a message dated 11/11/2003 5:33:56 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > jetdragon at comcast.net writes: > Anyone else nuts enough to name their pets after Dragaerans? > > > Considering the OTHER cats in the household are called Gremlin, Tiamat, > Bastet, and Shadow-cat, I think the kittens fit right in (except they are moving > right out, as I am in the process of moving to the house next door). My > previous kitten, who died tragically, was called Lilith. > > I hadn't originally intended to call a kitten after Sethra Lavode, but when I > looked into her eyes, it seemed appropriate. She is going to grow into a > large and significant cat. > > We are also in the process of acquiring a Corgi called Madame Mim, who will > arrive any time now. > > tal > From mark_englehart at cox.net Tue Nov 11 23:55:48 2003 From: mark_englehart at cox.net (Mark Englehart) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 23:55:48 -0800 Subject: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.6.0.20031109212340.00a25ec0@pop.west.cox.net> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20031111234024.00a25c60@pop.west.cox.net> At 11:14 PM 11/9/2003 -0800, David Silberstein wrote: >On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, Mark Englehart wrote > > and b). learn to see things from the other person's point of > >view; something next to impossible for a Dragaeran who isn't a Tiassa. > > > >Um. I think you are wildly wrong on this last point. We've seen >Sethra be empathic, and gently pushing Tazendra that way (in that >great scene in FHYA), and I am rather sure that there are other >examples as well. Picking a couple more examples at random: How >could Uttrik have forgiven Kathana, if he could not see her outrage >over being slighted over something that was incredibly important to >her? How could Kathana have agreed to submit to justice, if she >could not see Uttrik's grief and loss? And so on. If all of the >Dragaerans were truly so blind, they would seem nearly inhuman. Okay, I misspoke. What I meant to write was the other *House's* point of view. As Vlad has pointed out, a Dragon always thinks like a Dragon, a Dzur like a Dzur. They are not inhuman, they can develop empathy, but their frame of reference is always limited by those animal genes. If Sethra actually was Dragaeran originally, she has transcended it. And Uttrik and Kathana are able to empathize because they are both Dragons. I think that this is an allegory that Steven has played with all along that Theodore Sturgeon would have been most impressed with: only if you can transcend thinking with the animal brain can you become a human being. --Mark From mark_englehart at cox.net Tue Nov 11 23:57:55 2003 From: mark_englehart at cox.net (Mark Englehart) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 23:57:55 -0800 Subject: Chreotha - A Speculation Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20031107054914.00a25090@pop.west.cox.net> Hello All, Looking over the archives, I noticed that a few times the question has been asked "what do we know about the Lesser Houses?" and the answer has generally been "not too much." With your kind indulgence, I will go out on a limb and incorporate what we do know with a sense of history and speculate on the nature of the Chreotha. ---- The Chreotha tribal life was centered around trapping, these humans using tools to craft traps to substitute for the chreotha's natural ability. Kieron saw that the Chreotha ate better than many of the tribes and so asked them to join his army and keep his troops supplied with meat. After a time, he realized their wilderness knowledge and tracking skills could have military application and so they were able to distinguish themselves in the war. When Kieron was distributing land and titles to the Houses, the Chreotha asked for the territories most remote >from the center of the Empire, the lands most teeming with wildlife. As no one else wanted these lands, the transfer took place with little fuss. The centuries that followed found the Chreotha leading a nomadic life through their new territories. Few permanent settlements were established. They made contact with many Seriolli, who found them and their way of life less offensive than most Dragaerans. The two groups established reasonably good relations and to this day many Chreotha carry Seriolli based names. When they discovered that other houses would trade with them for furs, many gave up trapping to become furriers. Others became traders and settlements began to spring up. The push for exploration under the first Tiassa and Hawk reigns, followed by the push to expand and conquer during the first Dzur stretched the borders of the Empire past the Chreotha lands. The conquerors and settlers needed trailblazers and wilderness experts and turned to the Chreotha. Soon game trails were blazed into roads and trade routes from the new lands reached through Chreotha holdings to the center of the empire. Some Chreotha felt they were being taken advantage of and began imposing taxes on the merchants using their roads, building fortresses and strongholds to enforce their will. By the time the first Chreotha reign came around there were landed nobles with an interest in politics. The focus of that reign, as many since, was balancing trade (especially overland trade) with environmental conservation. Today, there are generally three types of Chreotha. The first is the "traditional" trapper and woodsman. Exploratory expeditions may be led by a Hawk or Tiassa, but it is a Chreotha who blazes the trail and keeps the expedition alive. This type rarely makes its money by fur trading anymore, however, as the second type, the nobles maintaining their ancient strongholds, have set up fur farms on their lands to supplement the income >from taxing trade. Of course overland trade is never as profitable as oversea trade, so the Chreotha have never been as prosperous as the Orca. This has led to the third type, the tradesmen and city folk. Generally they or their forebears have been forced from their rural homes by that most basic of economics: too many children, not enough food. This type has turned to the skills of the tradesman: weaving, smithing and other crafts. While not as inventive or original in their work as the Vallista, the fine motor skills which their ancestors used to fashion traps serve them tollerably well. ----------------- That's it for now. Next time, Jhegaala. --Mark From mklahn at mac.com Wed Nov 12 08:34:33 2003 From: mklahn at mac.com (Matthew Klahn) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 10:34:33 -0600 Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) In-Reply-To: <111220030033.1941.690a@comcast.net> References: <111220030033.1941.690a@comcast.net> Message-ID: <18DE54D7-152E-11D8-90A6-000393D1260C@mac.com> On Nov 11, 2003, at 18:33 , jetdragon at comcast.net wrote: > Talpianna at aol.com wrote: > >> Plus the fact that she has such lovely silky creamy fur--oh, sorry! >> That's my KITTEN Sethra Lavode! (Aliera is the one that bites >> everyone and anything, but Sethra is a very old soul indeed.) > > > I named my kitten Tazendra. She's mellowed out recently and doesn't > attack everything quite as much, but I'm sure she'd have no fear going > after anything bigger than she is. > > Anyone else nuts enough to name their pets after Dragaerans? > > Jessica > Ok, I'll bite. I fostered 6 kittens for a friend, and ended up naming the black one (who we were keeping) Morrolan because it suited him: he does not walk, he _struts_ everywhere, and is almost all black, but with some silvery white hairs mixed in, especially around his legs. We are now trying to integrate him into the household, and he is completely fearless when it comes to the other cats, though can be humble if need be (think of him as a young Morrolan, circa PoTD in the east, maybe). Ah, but since "Morrolan" is not a quick name to say, we have resorted to calling him "MoMo" or "Mo" (which, if Brust had Vlad call Morrolan in a book would probably kill me due to laughter), especially if we don't feel like explaining to people why he is named after a Dragaeran wizard/warrior-prince. Pictures are here, for those who can't get enough 5-week-old kitten pictures: http://homepage.mac.com/mklahn/PhotoAlbum11.html I have to say, though, that having been a Brust fan for some 11 years now, this was the first time that I even thought about naming a cat after a Dragaeran. -- Matthew S. Klahn Software Architect, CodeTek Studios, Inc. http://www.codetek.com From Talpianna at aol.com Wed Nov 12 10:28:49 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:28:49 EST Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) Message-ID: <25.40b2a115.2ce3d5e1@aol.com> In a message dated 11/12/2003 9:35:06 AM US Mountain Standard Time, mklahn at mac.com writes: Pictures are here, for those who can't get enough 5-week-old kitten pictures They are adorable! I might suggest that you play with them in a photo-editing program--that's the only way I was able to get a good pic of charcoal-colored Shadow-cat and black Bastet: dark cats' faces don't show up well unless you lighten the picture a bit. tal From mam at theworld.com Wed Nov 12 10:46:44 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:46:44 -0500 Subject: Chreotha - A Speculation In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20031107054914.00a25090@pop.west.cox.net> Message-ID: I *LIKE* it! -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From greatcthulhu1 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 12 12:04:04 2003 From: greatcthulhu1 at yahoo.com (Oscar Rios) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:04:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) In-Reply-To: <003901c3a8e8$8538ff50$94d2fdd8@pentium4> Message-ID: <20031112200404.10975.qmail@web41905.mail.yahoo.com> Since people are owning up to the geeky pet names, I'll join in. I have a cat named Hanalli and a turtle called Tethrin. If you know what one of those names is, 10 points. If you know both, tripple geek score. Aqua-man, you cannot marry Wonder Woman, your from two different worlds....::looks up to see atomic weapon about to impact:: Oh, I've wasted my life.... > Considering the OTHER cats in the household are called Gremlin, Tiamat, > Bastet, and Shadow-cat, I think the kittens fit right in (except they are moving > right out, as I am in the process of moving to the house next door). My > previous kitten, who died tragically, was called Lilith. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard From trevor at fiatal.net Wed Nov 12 12:15:15 2003 From: trevor at fiatal.net (Trevor Fiatal) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:15:15 -0800 Subject: Chreotha - A Speculation In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20031107054914.00a25090@pop.west.cox.net> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20031107054914.00a25090@pop.west.cox.net> Message-ID: <3FB294D3.1060705@fiatal.net> Mark Englehart wrote: > Hello All, > Looking over the archives, I noticed that a few times the question has > been asked "what do we know about the Lesser Houses?" and the answer > has generally been "not too much." With your kind indulgence, I will > go out on a limb and incorporate what we do know with a sense of > history and speculate on the nature of the Chreotha. > ---- [deletia] Excellent job, Mark. I couldn't help chuckling over how 'Seriolli' sounds like a character >from Sesame Street, though -- it's actually 'Serioli'. -Trevor -- Trevor Fiatal -- trevor at fiatal.net From davids at kithrup.com Wed Nov 12 12:34:34 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:34:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > >#As a particle physicist, you might get a chuckle out of Anderson's >#short work "Uncleftish Beholding". It's a bit of a linguistic >#exercise rather than an actual story; the entire text is basic science >#written in Anglo-Saxon or Germanic words and phrases where we would >#use terms from Latin or Greek derived roots. As you might guess, an >#"uncleft" is an "atom", and it goes on from there. > >I LOVE that one! (I'm a linguist...). > >Actually, there is *one* Romance-derived word in the whole text. > >The Periodic Table is "the Roundaround Board of the Firststuffs". >"Round" is from Latin by way of French. The native English root for that >concept, "ym" (compare modern German "um"), was completely replaced; it >has left no reflexes -- uh, no traces -- in modern English that I'm >aware of, and Anderson simply had to use the import to express the >meaning. > Well, I've been thinking about this, and I *think* I have an alternate suggestion (and it's a pity that I can't make it directly to Poul anymore). Looking at the OED for "periodic", I see that it is from the Greek for (peri) around + (odos) way. "Way" has a good Germanic heritage, but that leaves us with the problematic "around" (OED says "rare before 1600"). Now, while the Old English for the concept of "round" may be lost to us, I would suggest that an alternate might be "wheel". Wheels are necessarily round; more to the point, "wheel" would be used in other places for "cycle", and similar words. The original usage of "period" was only applied to time; the table of elements could just as easily be called "cyclic" as "periodic". So therefore, the concept of "periodic" in chemistry might be expressed by "wheelwayish". With a little more effort, I might be able to come up with some other possibilities. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Nov 12 12:44:31 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:44:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > Looking at the OED for "periodic", I see that it is from the Greek for > (peri) around + (odos) way. "Way" has a good Germanic heritage, but > that leaves us with the problematic "around" (OED says "rare before > 1600"). > > Now, while the Old English for the concept of "round" may be lost to > us, I would suggest that an alternate might be "wheel". Wheels are > necessarily round; more to the point, "wheel" would be used in other > places for "cycle", and similar words. The original usage of "period" > was only applied to time; the table of elements could just as easily > be called "cyclic" as "periodic". > > So therefore, the concept of "periodic" in chemistry might be > expressed by "wheelwayish". > With a little more effort, I might be able to come up with some other > possibilities. How about backturning? Or again-and-again-turning? From davids at kithrup.com Wed Nov 12 12:54:32 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:54:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler) In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20031111234024.00a25c60@pop.west.cox.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Mark Englehart wrote: >At 11:14 PM 11/9/2003 -0800, David Silberstein wrote: >>On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, Mark Englehart wrote >> > and b). learn to see things from the other person's point of >> >view; something next to impossible for a Dragaeran who isn't a Tiassa. >> > >> >>Um. I think you are wildly wrong on this last point. [snip some examples] > >Okay, I misspoke. What I meant to write was the other *House's* >point of view. As Vlad has pointed out, a Dragon always thinks >like a Dragon, a Dzur like a Dzur. They are not inhuman, they >can develop empathy, but their frame of reference is always >limited by those animal genes. I have my doubts as to whether the "animal genes" have *that* great an influence on what are 99% human, and I would suggest that rather than "always limited", I would put it as "usually limited", or even "often limited". As examples of seeing from other Houses' points-of-view, I would point to Khaavren's friends, who have come to learn how each of the others thinks, to a certain degree. There's also the introduction to /Issola/, where Vlad mentions some of the rules for politeness among the various Houses, but adds that some, knowing the rules for the other Houses, will sometimes use those other rules when meeting someone of that House. And speaking of Issola, I would suggest that one of the natures of that House is to *want* to see things as others do, if only so as to know how to act appropriately towards those others. An amusing thought: It is possible to "borrow" someone's eyes using magic, as we see Morrolan do in /Issola/. So he was quite literaly seeing things from Vlad's point-of-view. Heh. > >I think that this is an allegory that Steven has played with all >along that Theodore Sturgeon would have been most impressed with: >only if you can transcend thinking with the animal brain can you >become a human being. > An excellent point, and which prompts me to add that many (most?) people right here in the real world often have trouble seeing things as others do. From mam at theworld.com Wed Nov 12 13:56:03 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 16:56:03 -0500 Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: #On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: [...] #> So therefore, the concept of "periodic" in chemistry might be #> expressed by "wheelwayish". # #> With a little more effort, I might be able to come up with some other #> possibilities. # #How about backturning? Or again-and-again-turning? Oh, VERY nice, both of you! ... Or turnwayish? -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From davids at kithrup.com Wed Nov 12 14:02:28 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:02:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > >On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > >> Looking at the OED for "periodic", I see that it is from the Greek for >> (peri) around + (odos) way. "Way" has a good Germanic heritage, but >> that leaves us with the problematic "around" (OED says "rare before >> 1600"). [snip] >> So therefore, the concept of "periodic" in chemistry might be >> expressed by "wheelwayish". >How about backturning? Or again-and-again-turning? > The word "turn" appears to be from Latin, but it would appear to be a *very* early borrowing; it exists in Old English, and also shows up in Old High German and Icelandic, with an ultimately Greek root. OED says: On the twofold representation of L. /tornre/ in OE. see Pogatscher /Latein. u. Roman. Lehnworte im Altenglischen/, ??9, 159, 271; he shows that the umlauted /tyrnan/ must have already existed c 600. I am not sure what Poul's policy was regarding such, but I think it would be better than "around". "Again" is an English substitute for the Latin prefix "re-" (one of the things I found was that "Agenbite of Inwit" or "Ayenbite of Inwyt" was a translation of "Remorse of Concience"; Latin "morse" == "mord" == English "bite"). So "againturning" could work, I think. Or perhaps "againrunning" (recurring) would be another possibility. I had the thought that "about" can also conver the concept of "around"; indeed, OED says: [OE. /on-b?tan/ (cf. OFries. /ab?ta/), f. /on/ in, on + /b?tan/ without, outside of (itself an earlier comb. of /be/ by, near, + /?tan/ properly locative of /?t/ out, used adjectively or substantively; cf. /be northan/, etc.) The primary meaning of /on-b?tan/ was thus, /on/ or /by the outside of/, hence /around/, wholly or partially. The idea of /round, about/, was originally expressed in OE. by /ymbe/, and its compound /ymb-?tan/; the latter scarcely survived the 11th c., and the former became obs. in the 13th, /about/ taking the place of both. The weakening to /a-b?tan/ began in the 10th c. (one of the quotes is amusing, and also includes "turn": c1000 ?LFRIC Manual of Astron. 10 Seo firmament tyrn? symle onbutan us.. & ealle? a steorran..turnia? onbutan mid hyre. ) Which gives us "aboutwayish". (Hmm. Looking at that quote above, I think Poul would have preferred "welkin" to "firmament". That Aelfric! Didn't even want to use his own language! ) From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Nov 12 15:42:40 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:42:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For those who like stunts, I've just been reminded I have some more: http://hep.ucsb.edu/people/hart/poem/minmid.html (two stunts) http://hep.ucsb.edu/people/hart/poem/wwww.html (one insane stunt) From Talpianna at aol.com Wed Nov 12 16:47:35 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 19:47:35 EST Subject: Below Hypothesis Message-ID: <1c7.11a8625c.2ce42ea7@aol.com> In a message dated 11/12/2003 1:52:25 PM US Mountain Standard Time, philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU writes: How about backturning? That sounds more like "reversal" than "period." tal From Talpianna at aol.com Wed Nov 12 16:52:29 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 19:52:29 EST Subject: Below Hypothesis Message-ID: <10e.2896e541.2ce42fcd@aol.com> What about some form of "weorpan," "to turn," as in mouldiwarp, the OE for "mole" (of course *I* would cite that!), which means earth-thrower or -turner. "Warpwise" or "backwarp"? talpianna the mole person From davids at kithrup.com Wed Nov 12 18:40:33 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 18:40:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: <10e.2896e541.2ce42fcd@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 Talpianna at aol.com wrote: >What about some form of "weorpan," "to turn," as in mouldiwarp, the >OE for "mole" (of course *I* would cite that!), which means >earth-thrower or -turner. "Warpwise" or "backwarp"? The sense I get from the OED is that the main meaning of "warp" was more something flung or ejected or expelled or emitted. It would mean "turned" more as in "turned away" or "turned from the original (into a twisted form)". There's a connotation of violence, even. So while it's appropriate for the digging-mole, flinging earth out and about, it doesn't seem quite right for the concept of recurring chemical properties, which is more of an emphasis on the regularity of the reoccurence. But I like that warp has such an ancient heritage - "Thys space-schipp doth move by a warping of space", heh. From agrajag at dragaera.net Wed Nov 12 19:51:07 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 12 Nov 2003 22:51:07 -0500 Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) In-Reply-To: <20031112200404.10975.qmail@web41905.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20031112200404.10975.qmail@web41905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1068695466.2018.4.camel@loiosh> Not quite pet names, but I do have a habit of naming my computers after names from the books. I've had various computers at home named teckla, vallista, dragon, tsalmoth, and jhereg. At one of my old jobs, I had norathar, morrolan, and aliera. I also had an old work laptop named devera, then replaced it with a personal laptop named loiosh. I'm actually getting a laptop with my new job next month and haven't quite figured out what name to give it yet. Any suggestions? As for pets, I have one grey cat named Shastes. Kudos to anyone who recognizes the name without using google. Jag From pulmon at comcast.net Wed Nov 12 20:04:14 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 23:04:14 -0500 Subject: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <71C408D6-158E-11D8-8E6D-0003938F1608@comcast.net> As to the impact of 1% on a genome: that is the genetic difference between human and chimpanzee.... On Nov 12, 2003, at 3:54 PM, David Silberstein wrote: > On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Mark Englehart wrote: > >> At 11:14 PM 11/9/2003 -0800, David Silberstein wrote: >>> On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, Mark Englehart wrote >>>> and b). learn to see things from the other person's point of >>>> view; something next to impossible for a Dragaeran who isn't a >>>> Tiassa. >>>> >>> >>> Um. I think you are wildly wrong on this last point. > > [snip some examples] > >> >> Okay, I misspoke. What I meant to write was the other *House's* >> point of view. As Vlad has pointed out, a Dragon always thinks >> like a Dragon, a Dzur like a Dzur. They are not inhuman, they >> can develop empathy, but their frame of reference is always >> limited by those animal genes. > > I have my doubts as to whether the "animal genes" have *that* great an > influence on what are 99% human, and I would suggest that rather than > "always limited", I would put it as "usually limited", or even "often > limited". > > As examples of seeing from other Houses' points-of-view, I would point > to Khaavren's friends, who have come to learn how each of the others > thinks, to a certain degree. > > There's also the introduction to /Issola/, where Vlad mentions some of > the rules for politeness among the various Houses, but adds that some, > knowing the rules for the other Houses, will sometimes use those other > rules when meeting someone of that House. > > And speaking of Issola, I would suggest that one of the natures of > that House is to *want* to see things as others do, if only so as to > know how to act appropriately towards those others. > > An amusing thought: It is possible to "borrow" someone's eyes using > magic, as we see Morrolan do in /Issola/. So he was quite literaly > seeing things from Vlad's point-of-view. Heh. > >> >> I think that this is an allegory that Steven has played with all >> along that Theodore Sturgeon would have been most impressed with: >> only if you can transcend thinking with the animal brain can you >> become a human being. >> > > An excellent point, and which prompts me to add that many (most?) > people right here in the real world often have trouble seeing things > as others do. > From Talpianna at aol.com Wed Nov 12 21:39:46 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 00:39:46 EST Subject: Below Hypothesis Message-ID: <1f1.131e5688.2ce47322@aol.com> I found this by wandering through Eric Partridge's ORIGINS, the "bet you can't look up just one" etymological dictionary. I started with "mole," my favorite four-letter word, and was taken to "mouldiwarp," then "vervain," then "verse"--all language aspires to the condition of poetry, I guess. Anyone remember what classic work(s) of fantasy feature(s) a Mouldiwarp? talpianna From Talpianna at aol.com Wed Nov 12 21:41:39 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 00:41:39 EST Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) Message-ID: My computer is named Spot. Points to anyone who recognizes the source. Clue: A Mac with an apple on the screen that doesn't have a bite out of it......... tal From akodobob at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 13 00:12:39 2003 From: akodobob at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 00:12:39 -0800 Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) References: Message-ID: <001901c3a9bd$ee1d3330$6501a8c0@DELL1> It can not be the infamous and rarely seen Dogcow can it?... No I think that is Clarus. Akodo Bob -Moof ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 9:41 PM Subject: Re: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) > My computer is named Spot. Points to anyone who recognizes the source. > Clue: A Mac with an apple on the screen that doesn't have a bite out of it......... > > tal > From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Nov 13 09:27:16 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 13 Nov 2003 11:27:16 -0600 Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) In-Reply-To: <18DE54D7-152E-11D8-90A6-000393D1260C@mac.com> References: <111220030033.1941.690a@comcast.net> <18DE54D7-152E-11D8-90A6-000393D1260C@mac.com> Message-ID: Matthew Klahn writes: > Pictures are here, for those who can't get enough 5-week-old kitten > pictures: http://homepage.mac.com/mklahn/PhotoAlbum11.html > > I have to say, though, that having been a Brust fan for some 11 years > now, this was the first time that I even thought about naming a cat > after a Dragaeran. I do notice that you named one Gregor, though, too. Speeking of geeky pet naming :-) -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From flgrendel at yahoo.com Thu Nov 13 10:16:13 2003 From: flgrendel at yahoo.com (John Almasi) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 10:16:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031113181613.68665.qmail@web20302.mail.yahoo.com> I named my cat Prandius. Which I believe is a masculine derivative of the Latin word for "Lunch". Correct me if I am wrong. That was the intent anyway. Just so he would know where he stood in the cosmic scheme of the household. And of course, being a cat, he immediately took over. John --- David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Matthew Klahn writes: > > > Pictures are here, for those who can't get enough > 5-week-old kitten > > pictures: > http://homepage.mac.com/mklahn/PhotoAlbum11.html > > > > I have to say, though, that having been a Brust > fan for some 11 years > > now, this was the first time that I even thought > about naming a cat > > after a Dragaeran. > > I do notice that you named one Gregor, though, too. > Speeking of geeky > pet naming :-) > -- > David Dyer-Bennet, , > > RKBA: > Photos: Snapshots: > > Dragaera/Steven Brust: __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Nov 13 11:03:10 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 11:03:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) Message-ID: <200311131903.hADJ3Ag09661@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> John Almasi wrote: > I named my cat Prandius. Which I believe is a > masculine derivative of the Latin word for "Lunch". > Correct me if I am wrong. That was the intent anyway. > Just so he would know where he stood in the cosmic > scheme of the household. And of course, being a cat, > he immediately took over. Reading these pet-posts, I have noticed an interesting trend: It appears there are a great many cat-people on this list. Why, oh why, does this not surprise me.... Any doggie-Morrolans out there? Let's hear it for Equal Canine Representation! Chris (Who is, he must confess, a cat-person.:) "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From davids at kithrup.com Thu Nov 13 12:16:16 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 12:16:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: <1f1.131e5688.2ce47322@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 Talpianna at aol.com wrote: > >Anyone remember what classic work(s) of fantasy feature(s) a >Mouldiwarp? > The same one that features a W?ter-Ratte & a Taid? /?e Winde in ?e Wylghes/ From davids at kithrup.com Thu Nov 13 12:18:22 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 12:18:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 Talpianna at aol.com wrote: >My computer is named Spot. Points to anyone who recognizes the >source. Clue: A Mac with an apple on the screen that doesn't have a >bite out of it......... Hm. So, I think someone wants to be a wizard... From casey at the-bat.net Thu Nov 13 12:30:23 2003 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:30:23 -0500 Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) In-Reply-To: <200311131903.hADJ3Ag09661@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: Chris Olson wrote: > It appears there are a great many cat-people on this > list. > > Why, oh why, does this not surprise me.... > > Any doggie-Morrolans out there? Let's hear it for > Equal Canine Representation! Well, we've had a long tradition of using books and classical myth as sources for name for pets. Currently we have two cats, Vetch and Hero, and two dogs, Cadfael and Calli (short for Calliope). Calli came to us as Cali short for Excalibur. Who names a female mutt pup Excalibur? Casey From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Nov 13 12:31:25 2003 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:31:25 EST Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) Message-ID: <1d4.145ed734.2ce5441d@aol.com> In a message dated 11/13/2003 2:03:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM writes: > John Almasi wrote: > > I named my cat Prandius. Which I believe is a > > masculine derivative of the Latin word for "Lunch". > > Correct me if I am wrong. That was the intent anyway. > > Just so he would know where he stood in the cosmic > > scheme of the household. And of course, being a cat, > > he immediately took over. > > Reading these pet-posts, I have noticed an interesting > trend: > > It appears there are a great many cat-people on this > list. > > Why, oh why, does this not surprise me.... > > Any doggie-Morrolans out there? Let's hear it for > Equal Canine Representation! > > Chris (Who is, he must confess, a cat-person.:) > > "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you > in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." > -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' > Count me in on the cat people. I'm allergic as all hell to the little *&@# but they seem to find me no matter where I live. I will come home at night to find them sitting on my porch or waiting by my door like they were invited. No I do not currently have a cat, the neighboorhood cats visit enough to keep my eyes itchy and my nose runny. John D Barbato, OD From warlord at dragon.com Thu Nov 13 12:32:18 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:32:18 -0500 Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Casey Rousseau [mailto:casey at the-bat.net] > Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 3:30 PM > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: RE: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead > (Issola spoiler)) > > > Chris Olson wrote: > > It appears there are a great many cat-people on this > > list. > > > > Why, oh why, does this not surprise me.... > > > > Any doggie-Morrolans out there? Let's hear it for > > Equal Canine Representation! > > Well, we've had a long tradition of using books and classical myth as > sources for name for pets. Currently we have two cats, Vetch and > Hero, and > two dogs, Cadfael and Calli (short for Calliope). Calli came to > us as Cali > short for Excalibur. Who names a female mutt pup Excalibur? > um...an army seargent who misses his old rifle ? W From Talpianna at aol.com Thu Nov 13 13:13:52 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:13:52 EST Subject: Below Hypothesis Message-ID: <129.34dd45a4.2ce54e10@aol.com> In a message dated 11/13/2003 1:16:28 PM US Mountain Standard Time, davids at kithrup.com writes: >Anyone remember what classic work(s) of fantasy feature(s) a >Mouldiwarp? > The same one that features a W?ter-Ratte & a Taid? /?e Winde in ?e Wylghes/ No, that's a Mole. I mean a Mouldiwarp. Or possibly a Moldiwarp. You're in the right genre, though. tal From Talpianna at aol.com Thu Nov 13 13:18:49 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:18:49 EST Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) Message-ID: <7a.4ad2757a.2ce54f39@aol.com> In a message dated 11/13/2003 1:28:48 PM US Mountain Standard Time, casey at the-bat.net writes: Chris Olson wrote: > It appears there are a great many cat-people on this > list. > > Why, oh why, does this not surprise me.... http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/601-6122785-2475301?asin=B00009MVFQ&alt%5 fview=images#images tal From Talpianna at aol.com Thu Nov 13 13:20:08 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:20:08 EST Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) Message-ID: <32.408c9283.2ce54f88@aol.com> In a message dated 11/13/2003 1:32:13 PM US Mountain Standard Time, Randi128 at aol.com writes: No I do not currently have a cat, the neighboorhood cats visit enough to keep my eyes itchy and my nose runny. John D Barbato, OD Have you tried a large variety of allergy meds to see if you can find The One that works for you? tal From Talpianna at aol.com Thu Nov 13 13:22:31 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:22:31 EST Subject: Below Hypothesis Message-ID: <9.1c3f0aa9.2ce55017@aol.com> In a message dated 11/13/2003 2:14:47 PM US Mountain Standard Time, Talpianna at aol.com writes: /?e Winde in ?e Wylghes/ BTW, does anyone else know why there is no actual mention of wind in willows in THE WIND IN THE WILLOWS? I do..... tal From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Nov 13 13:24:58 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 13:24:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: <9.1c3f0aa9.2ce55017@aol.com> References: <9.1c3f0aa9.2ce55017@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 Talpianna at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/13/2003 2:14:47 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > Talpianna at aol.com writes: > /?e Winde in ?e Wylghes/ > BTW, does anyone else know why there is no actual mention of wind in willows > in THE WIND IN THE WILLOWS? I do..... > > tal Ok, I'll bite. I've been wondering about this for, uhh, 10 years at least. From Talpianna at aol.com Thu Nov 13 13:37:23 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:37:23 EST Subject: Wind in willows Message-ID: <1cc.144725b7.2ce55393@aol.com> In a message dated 11/13/2003 2:25:11 PM US Mountain Standard Time, philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU writes: > BTW, does anyone else know why there is no actual mention of wind in willows > in THE WIND IN THE WILLOWS? I do..... > > tal Ok, I'll bite. I've been wondering about this for, uhh, 10 years at least. The book was originally called THE WIND IN THE REEDS; and you no doubt recall that the wind in the reeds sings the song about the Friend and Helper as Mole and Rat are returning from Pan's Island with the baby otter. But W.B. Yeats's first collection of poems, THE WIND AMONG THE REEDS, had just been published, I think even by the same publisher, so it was found necessary to change the title. It makes less sense, as the wind in the reeds does sound like someone whispering ("King Midas has asses' ears!"), where as the wind among willow fronds just makes rattling noises. tal From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Nov 13 14:11:46 2003 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:11:46 EST Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) Message-ID: <66.38e6967e.2ce55ba2@aol.com> In a message dated 11/13/2003 4:20:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, Talpianna writes: > In a message dated 11/13/2003 1:32:13 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > Randi128 at aol.com writes: > > >> No I >> do not currently have a cat, the neighborhood cats visit enough to keep my >> eyes itchy and my nose runny. >> >> > > Have you tried a large variety of allergy meds to see if you can find The > One that works for you? > > tal > Yes, I get samples for free ( I am an eye doctor(Optometrist)). Patanol eye drops and Clarinex tablets work wonders for the times when I am subjected to feline visitations. I am not ready to take medication every day just to have the pleasure of cleaning litter boxes and hairballs. Also my children (8 and 9 Y/O)provide me company to the point that I want to run away sometimes, so I don't need another companion. John D. Barbato, OD From mam at theworld.com Thu Nov 13 14:32:47 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:32:47 -0500 Subject: Below Hypothesis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: #The word "turn" appears to be from Latin, but it would appear to be a #*very* early borrowing; it exists in Old English, and also shows up in #Old High German and Icelandic, with an ultimately Greek root. OED #says: # # On the twofold representation of L. /tornre/ in OE. see # Pogatscher /Latein. u. Roman. Lehnworte im Altenglischen/, # ??9, 159, 271; he shows that the umlauted /tyrnan/ must # have already existed c 600. In the collection _All One Universe_, which is where I read "Uncleftish Beholdings", he writes in the foreword to that story, approximately, "I don't know much about the universe this story came from, other than that the Norman Conquest never took place." Since "turn" in English predates William the Bastard, its presence wouldn't be anomalous. OED online etymology (I have used "a=" to show the long a, 'a' with macron): OE. tyrnan and turnian, both ad. L. torna=re to turn in a lathe, round off, f. torn-us a lathe, a turner's wheel ... -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Nov 13 14:41:27 2003 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:41:27 EST Subject: Wind in willows Message-ID: In a message dated 11/13/2003 4:38:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, Talpianna at aol.com writes: > The book was originally called THE WIND IN THE REEDS; and you no doubt > recall > that the wind in the reeds sings the song about the Friend and Helper as > Mole > and Rat are returning from Pan's Island with the baby otter. But W.B. > Yeats's first collection of poems, THE WIND AMONG THE REEDS, had just been > published, I think even by the same publisher, so it was found necessary to > change the > title. It makes less sense, as the wind in the reeds does sound like > someone > whispering ("King Midas has asses' ears!"), where as the wind among willow > fronds just makes rattling noises. > > tal > I am constantly surprised, and impressed, by the useless information that pops up in conversation on this mailing list. It is the reason why I still subscribe. As you all know I hardly ever discuss the books, so there has to be some reason that I'm still hanging around. John D. Barbato, OD From mam at theworld.com Thu Nov 13 14:41:14 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:41:14 -0500 Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 Talpianna at aol.com wrote: #My computer is named Spot. Points to anyone who recognizes the source. #Clue: A Mac with an apple on the screen that doesn't have a bite out of it......... spoiler space follows: / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / High Wizardry, by Diane Duane. -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname http://world.std.com/~mam/filk.html Now on the Filker's Bardic Webring! From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Nov 13 14:44:51 2003 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:44:51 EST Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/13/2003 5:15:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM writes: > John, > > Might I ask where one can find patanol eye drops and > Clarinex tablets? I am slightly allergic to cats > myself.... > > Are they over-the-counter, or must one have a prescription? > > Cheers! > Chris > Rx only. See your GP or eye doctor. Although Claritin is OTC and works just as well for allergy symptoms if your not too stuffy. John D Barbato, OD From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Nov 13 14:46:09 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:46:09 -0600 Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031113224609.GD26105@infodancer.org> On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 05:41:14PM -0500, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 Talpianna at aol.com wrote: > #My computer is named Spot. Points to anyone who recognizes the source. > #Clue: A Mac with an apple on the screen that doesn't have a bite out of it......... > > spoiler space follows: > / > / > / > / > / > / > / > / > / > / > / > / > / > / > / > / > / > / > / > / > / > / > / > / > / > / > / > / > / > / > / > / > / > > High Wizardry, by Diane Duane. Which was very nearly a Tehanu-scale disaster. Pity, because the first two were rather well done. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Nov 13 14:56:07 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 14:56:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: nice sentence In-Reply-To: <20031113224609.GD26105@infodancer.org> References: <20031113224609.GD26105@infodancer.org> Message-ID: >From the 10 Nov New Yorker, the conclusion of John Lahr's pan of "Wicked": It is only fair to report that on the night I saw "Wicked" the spectators gave this $14 million piece of folderol a standing ovation, a phenomenon that the musical inadvertently explains in a number called "Dancing Through Life": "Life is painless / For the brainless." From Talpianna at aol.com Thu Nov 13 15:37:49 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:37:49 EST Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/13/2003 3:12:25 PM US Mountain Standard Time, Randi128 at aol.com writes: . I am not ready to take medication every day just to have the pleasure of cleaning litter boxes and hairballs. But what about the scratches? the yowling? the presents of small dead creatures left on your pristine pillow? the insertion of a furry presence between you and your reading matter? the incessant opening of the door? the catfights? How can you live without these delights? tal From Talpianna at aol.com Thu Nov 13 15:39:14 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:39:14 EST Subject: Below Hypothesis Message-ID: <149.1c2e6cc4.2ce57022@aol.com> In a message dated 11/13/2003 3:33:28 PM US Mountain Standard Time, mam at theworld.com writes: Since "turn" in English predates William the Bastard, its presence wouldn't be anomalous. Oh, call it a torc show and be done with it! mole From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Nov 13 15:40:35 2003 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:40:35 EST Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) Message-ID: <84.1c5c9eae.2ce57073@aol.com> In a message dated 11/13/2003 6:37:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, Talpianna writes: > In a message dated 11/13/2003 3:12:25 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > Randi128 at aol.com writes: > > >> . I am not ready to take medication every day just to have the >> > > > > But what about the scratches? the yowling? the presents of small dead > creatures left on your pristine pillow? the insertion of a furry presence > between you and your reading matter? the incessant opening of the door? the > catfights? How can you live without these delights? > It's a tough job, but I'll manage somehow. Oh woe is me. John D. Barbato, OD From Talpianna at aol.com Thu Nov 13 15:41:01 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:41:01 EST Subject: Wind in willows Message-ID: <14d.26a98bda.2ce5708d@aol.com> In a message dated 11/13/2003 3:42:06 PM US Mountain Standard Time, Randi128 at aol.com writes: As you all know I hardly ever discuss the books, so there has to be some reason that I'm still hanging around. Perhaps you are a serial killer stalking the excessively literate? talpianna, scuttling back into burrow From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Nov 13 15:50:51 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 15:50:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wind in willows In-Reply-To: <1cc.144725b7.2ce55393@aol.com> References: <1cc.144725b7.2ce55393@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 Talpianna at aol.com wrote: > But W.B. Yeats's first collection of poems, THE WIND AMONG THE REEDS, > had just been published... That would be his third collection, after _Crossways_ and _The Rose_, published in 1899? _WitW_ was published in 1908... From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Nov 13 15:51:50 2003 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:51:50 EST Subject: Wind in willows Message-ID: <1d1.14536287.2ce57316@aol.com> In a message dated 11/13/2003 6:41:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, Talpianna writes: > In a message dated 11/13/2003 3:42:06 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > Randi128 at aol.com writes: > > >> As you all know I hardly ever discuss the books, so there has to be some >> > > Perhaps you are a serial killer stalking the excessively literate? > > talpianna, scuttling back into burrow > Ehhhh, I might be rabbit, I might. Then again I might just be stuck here at the office until eight Pm with 4 cancellations and nothing else to do. John D Barbato, OD From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Nov 13 15:59:49 2003 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:59:49 EST Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) Message-ID: <17f.232d6a0b.2ce574f5@aol.com> In a message dated 11/13/2003 6:42:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, Talpianna writes: > In a message dated 11/13/2003 3:45:42 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > Randi128 at aol.com writes: > > >> Rx only. See your GP or eye doctor. Although Claritin is OTC and works >> just >> as well for allergy symptoms if your not too stuffy. >> >> > > It's different strokes for different folks, though. Some allergy meds work > on some people, others on others. If Claritin doesn't help, try Allergan or > something else. > > tal > Allergan is a pharmaceutical company, Allegra is the allergy med. DISCLAIMER: Remember to seek competent medical care(meaning not me, Hee, Hee), I am not a doctor on line, I only play one in real life. My specialty is eyes, not allergy. I am merely giving an anecdote as to what has worked best for me. It is not necessarily what I prescribe for my patients or what I would recommend to them. Remember to read the instructions on the package for any OTC meds and follow them carefully. Always be sure to check with your doctor to avoid drug interactions if you are already taking medications. John D. Barbato From Talpianna at aol.com Thu Nov 13 16:28:34 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 19:28:34 EST Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) Message-ID: <4e.24618d6c.2ce57bb2@aol.com> In a message dated 11/13/2003 4:59:38 PM US Mountain Standard Time, matthew at infodancer.org writes: Which was very nearly a Tehanu-scale disaster. Pity, because the first two were rather well done. Really? It's my second or third favorite in the series. tal From Talpianna at aol.com Thu Nov 13 16:36:26 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 19:36:26 EST Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) Message-ID: <1a1.1ce28eb0.2ce57d8a@aol.com> In a message dated 11/13/2003 5:00:26 PM US Mountain Standard Time, Randi128 at aol.com writes: Allergan is a pharmaceutical company, Allegra is the allergy med. Ooops, sorry! *mole blushes a delicate mauve* I just caught something in the online news about research being.done to help determine which medications will help which people, based on genome research. It was looking more at pain meds, but the same is true for allergy meds: different ones help different people. I remember when the news broke about Rush Limbaugh's addiction: I take oxycodone (sp?) on prescription but have never been tempted to take it for mood-altering; my housemate, with very severe rheumatoid arthritis, finds it about as effective as M&Ms. She takes Benadryl to help her sleep; it doesn't make me the least bit sleepy. My primary online hangout is the bulletin board of romance novelist Elizabeth Lowell, where quite a number of people suffer from migraines and share information on treatments. It seems that any given medication will be very effective for about a third of them, somewhat palliative for another third, and useless for the rest. Think of the time and effort that will be saved if they can just do a gene scan and tell exactly what will work for you. tal From casca913 at gbronline.com Thu Nov 13 16:58:25 2003 From: casca913 at gbronline.com (Charlie Smith) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 18:58:25 -0600 Subject: Vladiad comicbook???? Message-ID: <000c01c3aa4a$6a2a8860$08570945@pentium4> You know, every day you find out something that suprises you so much that you almost die from laughter. Today I found such a thing. http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/treats/jhereg_comic.html I fell over laughing at the idea of a comicbook Jhereg and couldn't help relaying it for those who have never seen the site. Be seated for this one :P -- Charlie Smith e'Paarfi -- "Shut up Loiosh." -- Vlad Taltos, How to train a familiar and influence people From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Nov 13 16:59:45 2003 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 19:59:45 EST Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) Message-ID: <121.27b3d468.2ce58301@aol.com> In a message dated 11/13/2003 7:36:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, Talpianna at aol.com writes: > In a message dated 11/13/2003 5:00:26 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > Randi128 at aol.com writes: > Allergan is a pharmaceutical company, Allegra is the allergy med. > > > > Ooops, sorry! *mole blushes a delicate mauve* > > I just caught something in the online news about research being.done to help > determine which medications will help which people, based on genome > research. > It was looking more at pain meds, but the same is true for allergy meds: > different ones help different people. I remember when the news broke about > Rush > Limbaugh's addiction: I take oxycodone (sp?) on prescription but have never > been tempted to take it for mood-altering; my housemate, with very severe > rheumatoid arthritis, finds it about as effective as M&Ms. She takes > Benadryl to > help her sleep; it doesn't make me the least bit sleepy. > > My primary online hangout is the bulletin board of romance novelist > Elizabeth > Lowell, where quite a number of people suffer from migraines and share > information on treatments. It seems that any given medication will be very > effective for about a third of them, somewhat palliative for another third, > and > useless for the rest. Think of the time and effort that will be saved if > they can > just do a gene scan and tell exactly what will work for you. > > tal We had a discussion about a similiar subject on the list at one time. Yes, genetic research is amazing and allowing us to pinpoint who is at risk for diseases that range from your friends arthritis to glaucoma. Drugs that target specific genetic variations are still science fiction at this point, but we are moving towards them very quickly. It may be something that we see in the next 10 to 20 years. Remember that genetic testing is still reletively expensive and not indicated for most illness. John D. Barbato, OD From casey at the-bat.net Thu Nov 13 17:10:19 2003 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:10:19 -0500 Subject: Stay away from : Vladiad comicbook???? In-Reply-To: <000c01c3aa4a$6a2a8860$08570945@pentium4> Message-ID: <00a001c3aa4c$12615170$7702a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Charlie Smith wrote: > I fell over laughing at the idea of a comicbook Jhereg and couldn't > help relaying it for those who have never seen the site. Be seated > for this one :P Run away. It's so bad it's ... BAD. Awful. Yucky. Eeewww. From Talpianna at aol.com Thu Nov 13 17:36:55 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:36:55 EST Subject: Vladiad comicbook???? Message-ID: <4b.366e7fe6.2ce58bb7@aol.com> As my grandmother would say, if she were still alive (and if she'd ever read Brust): "Isn't that just the pink limit?" tal From pulmon at comcast.net Thu Nov 13 18:08:15 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 21:08:15 -0500 Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <685B7AC9-1647-11D8-8E6D-0003938F1608@comcast.net> Cromolyn eye drops are available on line (from Canadian pharmacies) and have an excellent track record of safety and effectiveness. On Nov 13, 2003, at 5:44 PM, Randi128 at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/13/2003 5:15:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, > Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM writes: > > >> John, >> >> Might I ask where one can find patanol eye drops and >> Clarinex tablets? I am slightly allergic to cats >> myself.... >> >> Are they over-the-counter, or must one have a prescription? >> >> Cheers! >> Chris >> > > Rx only. See your GP or eye doctor. Although Claritin is OTC and works > just > as well for allergy symptoms if your not too stuffy. > > John D Barbato, OD From jtoth at megrez.org Thu Nov 13 18:10:04 2003 From: jtoth at megrez.org (Jim Toth) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 21:10:04 -0500 Subject: Pets In-Reply-To: <111220030033.1941.690a@comcast.net> References: <111220030033.1941.690a@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20031114021004.GA5179@castor.megrez.org> On Wed, Nov 12, 2003 at 12:33:26AM +0000, Jessica (jetdragon at comcast.net) said: > Talpianna at aol.com wrote: > > > Plus the fact that she has such lovely silky creamy fur--oh, sorry! > > That's my KITTEN Sethra Lavode! (Aliera is the one that bites > > everyone and anything, but Sethra is a very old soul indeed.) > > > I named my kitten Tazendra. She's mellowed out recently and doesn't > attack everything quite as much, but I'm sure she'd have no fear > going after anything bigger than she is. > > Anyone else nuts enough to name their pets after Dragaerans? Not yet, but today I walked by a car which had a license plate of JHEREG. From nstacy at cinci.rr.com Thu Nov 13 18:17:55 2003 From: nstacy at cinci.rr.com (Noah Stacy) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 21:17:55 -0500 Subject: Stay away from : Vladiad comicbook???? In-Reply-To: <00a001c3aa4c$12615170$7702a8c0@Prophnt2.local> References: <00a001c3aa4c$12615170$7702a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: <3FB43B53.80908@cinci.rr.com> Casey Rousseau wrote: >Charlie Smith wrote: > > >>I fell over laughing at the idea of a comicbook Jhereg and couldn't >>help relaying it for those who have never seen the site. Be seated >>for this one :P >> >> > >Run away. It's so bad it's ... BAD. Awful. Yucky. Eeewww. > > > > > > Only if you take it seriously. It's quite farcical if you're willing to have fun with it. :D From dd-b at dd-b.net Thu Nov 13 18:50:59 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 13 Nov 2003 20:50:59 -0600 Subject: Pets In-Reply-To: <20031114021004.GA5179@castor.megrez.org> References: <111220030033.1941.690a@comcast.net> <20031114021004.GA5179@castor.megrez.org> Message-ID: Jim Toth writes: > Not yet, but today I walked by a car which had a license plate of > JHEREG. What state was the plate from? You'd probably have said if it were a Nevada plate, right? Because we *know* who has that plate in NV. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From Talpianna at aol.com Thu Nov 13 19:47:10 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 22:47:10 EST Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) Message-ID: <197.226acd64.2ce5aa3e@aol.com> In a message dated 11/13/2003 7:08:43 PM US Mountain Standard Time, pulmon at comcast.net writes: John D Barbato, OD I always have trouble remembering between a D.O. and an O.D., which is the osteopath and which the eye doctor. Perhaps you specialize in the bones of the eyeball? tal, confused little insectivore From mark_englehart at cox.net Thu Nov 13 22:20:54 2003 From: mark_englehart at cox.net (Mark Englehart) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 22:20:54 -0800 Subject: Vladiad comicbook???? In-Reply-To: <000c01c3aa4a$6a2a8860$08570945@pentium4> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20031113221827.00a21e70@pop.west.cox.net> At 06:58 PM 11/13/2003 -0600, Charlie Smith wrote: >You know, every day you find out something that suprises you so much that >you almost die from laughter. Today I found such a thing. > >http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/treats/jhereg_comic.html > >I fell over laughing at the idea of a comicbook Jhereg and couldn't help >relaying it for those who have never seen the site. Be seated for this one :P > > >-- Charlie Smith e'Paarfi >-- "Shut up Loiosh." >-- Vlad Taltos, How to train a familiar and influence people I remember when this thing first came out. Marvel's Epic line as I recall. I was already a big fan of the books, flipped through a few pages, said something like "Morrolan with a beard?" put it down and never looked back. From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Thu Nov 13 22:32:44 2003 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 22:32:44 -0800 Subject: Wind in willows Message-ID: *snip* > > Perhaps you are a serial killer stalking the excessively literate? > > > > talpianna, scuttling back into burrow > > > >Ehhhh, I might be rabbit, I might. Then again I might just be stuck here at >the office until eight Pm with 4 cancellations and nothing else to do. > >John D Barbato, OD As long as her name isn't really BUN-BUN!!!!! (in which case your running away is pointless) _________________________________________________________________ Great deals on high-speed Internet access as low as $26.95. https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.) From naraku at comcast.net Fri Nov 14 00:14:28 2003 From: naraku at comcast.net (Paige Kalika) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 03:14:28 -0500 Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) References: <197.226acd64.2ce5aa3e@aol.com> Message-ID: <028d01c3aa87$53420b90$11a82d44@pagie> From: > I always have trouble remembering between a D.O. and an O.D., which is the > osteopath and which the eye doctor. Perhaps you specialize in the bones of the > eyeball? D.O. is the osteopath. Paige (osteopath-to-be in about six months, and frequent flier in her optometrist's office) From warlord at dragon.com Fri Nov 14 06:20:56 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 09:20:56 -0500 Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) In-Reply-To: <1a1.1ce28eb0.2ce57d8a@aol.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Talpianna at aol.com [mailto:Talpianna at aol.com] > Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 7:36 PM > To: Randi128 at aol.com; dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead > (Issola spoiler)) > > > In a message dated 11/13/2003 5:00:26 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > Randi128 at aol.com writes: > Allergan is a pharmaceutical company, Allegra is the allergy med. > > > > Ooops, sorry! *mole blushes a delicate mauve* > I look good, and I'm sure Vlad looks better; but, you! You look MAUVE-elous. W Goes back to writing his new script, "When Sally met Hairy" From greatcthulhu1 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 14 07:09:09 2003 From: greatcthulhu1 at yahoo.com (Oscar Rios) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 07:09:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vladiad comicbook???? In-Reply-To: <000c01c3aa4a$6a2a8860$08570945@pentium4> Message-ID: <20031114150909.69815.qmail@web41901.mail.yahoo.com> I've got three words for this abomination....Holy Hopping Snot! What Crap! Thanks for sharing. I was fighting with my diet, but now I may not eat all day! Charlie Smith wrote: You know, every day you find out something that suprises you so much that you almost die from laughter. Today I found such a thing. http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/treats/jhereg_comic.html I fell over laughing at the idea of a comicbook Jhereg and couldn't help relaying it for those who have never seen the site. Be seated for this one :P -- Charlie Smith e'Paarfi -- "Shut up Loiosh." -- Vlad Taltos, How to train a familiar and influence people --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard From sabia at mojoworld.net Fri Nov 14 07:43:39 2003 From: sabia at mojoworld.net (sabia at mojoworld.net) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 07:43:39 -0800 Subject: Vladiad comicbook???? Message-ID: <5396916D8B3BD44796A5A5EAEA93AEDF013ACD@deathstar.internal.mojoworld.net> Heh. It does have a train-wreck glory to it, doesn't it? :) -Sabia -----Original Message----- From: Charlie Smith [mailto:casca913 at gbronline.com] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 4:58 PM To: Dragarean Email Group Subject: Vladiad comicbook???? You know, every day you find out something that suprises you so much that you almost die from laughter. Today I found such a thing. http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/treats/jhereg_comic.html I fell over laughing at the idea of a comicbook Jhereg and couldn't help relaying it for those who have never seen the site. Be seated for this one :P -- Charlie Smith e'Paarfi -- "Shut up Loiosh." -- Vlad Taltos, How to train a familiar and influence people From bio_phy at hotmail.com Fri Nov 14 07:33:11 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 09:33:11 -0600 Subject: Vladiad comicbook???? Message-ID: I have to say that I'm always interested to see how people interpret the scenes that I've seen in my head. In that sense, I enjoyed the vive la difference. (Of course, I still think that Johnny Depp as Vlad in a big screen version with appropriate CGI wouldn't necessarily suck.) johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ "There are only three rules to writing a novel; unfortunately, no one knows what they are." --Somerset Maugham >I've got three words for this abomination....Holy Hopping Snot! What Crap! > Thanks for sharing. I was fighting with my diet, but now I may not eat >all day! _________________________________________________________________ Is your computer infected with a virus? Find out with a FREE computer virus scan from McAfee. Take the FreeScan now! http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From Talpianna at aol.com Fri Nov 14 13:36:45 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 16:36:45 EST Subject: Mouldiwarp Message-ID: Have you all given up guessing where the Mouldiwarp may be found? If so, see below: S P O I L E R The Mouldiwarp may be found in two books by E. Nesbit: THE HOUSE OF ARDEN and HARDING'S LUCK. It is an ill-tempered, rather nasty little beast that is part of the Arden coat of arms, which enables the current Arden impoverished offspring to retrieve the family treasure by traveling through time--resembles the first L.M. Boston Green Knowe book in some ways. HARDING'S LUCK is the sequel. Not as well known or as delightful as the better-known Nesbits, but the first at least is a pretty good read. talpianna, mouldiwarp-in-training From Talpianna at aol.com Fri Nov 14 13:38:51 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 16:38:51 EST Subject: Fwd: [SFandF_Refuge] Fans Outraged at New Character in The Return of the King Message-ID: <1dc.1471a672.2ce6a56b@aol.com> In a message dated 11/14/2003 2:31:50 PM US Mountain Standard Time, talpianna at aol.com writes: Tuesday, January 7 12:34 AM EST Fans Outraged at New Character in The Return of the King By Brian Briggs Wellington, New Zealand - A recently leaked trailer for The Return of the King has Tolkien fans outraged over the apparent addition of a new character - Jar-Jaromir. The scene depicted in the trailer shows Jar-Jaromir shouting, "Gondora gonna fallsa"; he then trips over a corpse and knocks down a couple of Uruk-hai. Producers of The Lord of the Rings trilogy confirmed the addition of the half-brother of Boromir and Faramir. "While The Two Towers is performing better at the box office than The Fellowship of the Ring, we are worried about a demographic that is skewing much older than desired. More mature fans are very good to have, but it's the younger fans who buy the merchandise. That's really what brings in the bucks on a movie like this," said producer Tim Wilcox. "People complained a lot about Gimli just being there for comic relief," continued Wilcox. "We answer that criticism by directing the humor through Jar-Jaromir in The Return of the King. There's this funny scene where Jar-Jaromir decides it's best to hand the ring over to Sauron, but then he drops it and kicks it into Mount Doom. Hi-larious." Purists, miffed by the deviations in The Two Towers, were so enraged by Jar-Jaromir as to be rendered speechless. A less pure, calmer fan who was able to form words said, "Tolkien mentioned a lot of different races and creatures, but never a Gungan or even a half-Gungan. I think I'm going to vomit." One fan tried to rationalize the move. "Maybe the Star Wars universe and Middle-earth intersect. Middle-earth certainly is a long time ago and why couldn't it be in 'a galaxy far, far away?' Nothing said it's our earth." He then broke down and started crying. Director Peter Jackson explained how the Jar-Jaromir character was added after all the other footage had already been shot. "That's the brilliant thing about digital editing and graphics. We didn't even imagine Jar-Jaromir in the movie until a couple of weeks ago, but now we can just edit him right into the key scenes. I really think it's going to be a hit with the toddlers." Jackson added, "I just love it when he shouts, 'Yousa steala precious from meesa!'" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20031114/904782ae/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: talpianna at aol.com Subject: [SFandF_Refuge] Fans Outraged at New Character in The Return of the King Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 16:24:27 EST Size: 9284 Url: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20031114/904782ae/attachment.mht From jtrager at keyway.net Fri Nov 14 13:48:31 2003 From: jtrager at keyway.net (Trager) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 13:48:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fwd: [SFandF_Refuge] Fans Outraged at New Character in The Return of the King Message-ID: <200311142148.hAELmVJA056697@shrek.keyway.net> Don't scare me like that! I'm gonna have nightmares now. From TimN at rcn.com Fri Nov 14 14:27:41 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 17:27:41 -0500 Subject: [SFandF_Refuge] Fans Outraged at New Character in The Return of the King References: <1dc.1471a672.2ce6a56b@aol.com> Message-ID: <002001c3aafe$85f755a0$d916fea9@ananda> Sweet gandalf in a handbacket. My spleen will never be the same. /cry From casca913 at gbronline.com Fri Nov 14 15:28:14 2003 From: casca913 at gbronline.com (Charlie Smith) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 17:28:14 -0600 Subject: [SFandF_Refuge] Fans Outraged at New Character in The Return of the King References: <1dc.1471a672.2ce6a56b@aol.com> Message-ID: <001c01c3ab06$fa35a900$19d1fdd8@pentium4> OMG! I cant express how hillarious it is in words! It's like a koala bear craped a rainbow in my brain! ----- Original Message ----- From: Talpianna at aol.com To: dragaera at dragaera.info Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 3:38 PM Subject: Fwd: [SFandF_Refuge] Fans Outraged at New Character in The Return of the King In a message dated 11/14/2003 2:31:50 PM US Mountain Standard Time, talpianna at aol.com writes: Tuesday, January 7 12:34 AM EST Fans Outraged at New Character in The Return of the King By Brian Briggs Wellington, New Zealand - A recently leaked trailer for The Return of the King has Tolkien fans outraged over the apparent addition of a new character - Jar-Jaromir. The scene depicted in the trailer shows Jar-Jaromir shouting, "Gondora gonna fallsa"; he then trips over a corpse and knocks down a couple of Uruk-hai. Producers of The Lord of the Rings trilogy confirmed the addition of the half-brother of Boromir and Faramir. "While The Two Towers is performing better at the box office than The Fellowship of the Ring, we are worried about a demographic that is skewing much older than desired. More mature fans are very good to have, but it's the younger fans who buy the merchandise. That's really what brings in the bucks on a movie like this," said producer Tim Wilcox. "People complained a lot about Gimli just being there for comic relief," continued Wilcox. "We answer that criticism by directing the humor through Jar-Jaromir in The Return of the King. There's this funny scene where Jar-Jaromir decides it's best to hand the ring over to Sauron, but then he drops it and kicks it into Mount Doom. Hi-larious." Purists, miffed by the deviations in The Two Towers, were so enraged by Jar-Jaromir as to be rendered speechless. A less pure, calmer fan who was able to form words said, "Tolkien mentioned a lot of different races and creatures, but never a Gungan or even a half-Gungan. I think I'm going to vomit." One fan tried to rationalize the move. "Maybe the Star Wars universe and Middle-earth intersect. Middle-earth certainly is a long time ago and why couldn't it be in 'a galaxy far, far away?' Nothing said it's our earth." He then broke down and started crying. Director Peter Jackson explained how the Jar-Jaromir character was added after all the other footage had already been shot. "That's the brilliant thing about digital editing and graphics. We didn't even imagine Jar-Jaromir in the movie until a couple of weeks ago, but now we can just edit him right into the key scenes. I really think it's going to be a hit with the toddlers." Jackson added, "I just love it when he shouts, 'Yousa steala precious from meesa!'" From jtoth at megrez.org Sat Nov 15 08:10:59 2003 From: jtoth at megrez.org (Jim Toth) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 11:10:59 -0500 Subject: Pets In-Reply-To: References: <111220030033.1941.690a@comcast.net> <20031114021004.GA5179@castor.megrez.org> Message-ID: <20031115161059.GA19204@castor.megrez.org> On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 08:50:59PM -0600, David Dyer-Bennet (dd-b at dd-b.net) said: > Jim Toth writes: > > > Not yet, but today I walked by a car which had a license plate of > > JHEREG. > > What state was the plate from? Virginia. That information was in the first draft that was in my head, but not the draft I actually wrote down hours later. :-) > You'd probably have said if it were a Nevada plate, right? Because > we *know* who has that plate in NV. :-) -- Jim Toth jtoth at megrez.org From jtoth at megrez.org Sat Nov 15 08:19:05 2003 From: jtoth at megrez.org (Jim Toth) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 11:19:05 -0500 Subject: Fans Outraged at New Character in The Return of the King In-Reply-To: <1dc.1471a672.2ce6a56b@aol.com> References: <1dc.1471a672.2ce6a56b@aol.com> Message-ID: <20031115161905.GB19204@castor.megrez.org> On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 04:38:51PM -0500, Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) said: [snip press release of horror] A picture of the new character (and the text I snipped) at: http://www.bbspot.com/News/2003/01/jaromir.html -- Jim Toth jtoth at megrez.org From Talpianna at aol.com Sat Nov 15 14:03:43 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 17:03:43 EST Subject: Fans Outraged at New Character in The Return of the King Message-ID: In a message dated 11/15/2003 9:19:28 AM US Mountain Standard Time, jtoth at megrez.org writes: A picture of the new character (and the text I snipped) at: http://www.bbspot.com/News/2003/01/jaromir.html Thanks for posting this. I recalled too late that the pic in the e-mail wouldn't appear on this list. tal From bio_phy at hotmail.com Sat Nov 15 18:50:18 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 20:50:18 -0600 Subject: Fans Outraged at New Character in The Return of the King Message-ID: We are we getting the same gag over and over? johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ "There are only three rules to writing a novel; unfortunately, no one knows what they are." --Somerset Maugham >From: Talpianna at aol.com >To: jtoth at megrez.org, dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: Fans Outraged at New Character in The Return of the King >Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 17:03:43 EST > >In a message dated 11/15/2003 9:19:28 AM US Mountain Standard Time, >jtoth at megrez.org writes: >A picture of the new character (and the text I snipped) at: > > http://www.bbspot.com/News/2003/01/jaromir.html >Thanks for posting this. I recalled too late that the pic in the e-mail >wouldn't appear on this list. > > tal _________________________________________________________________ Concerned that messages may bounce because your Hotmail account is over limit? Get Hotmail Extra Storage! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es From davids at kithrup.com Sat Nov 15 17:39:18 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 17:39:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Concerning Matters Nautical Message-ID: On Mon Oct 27th, 2003 3:21 PM, Steve Brust webblogged: ] A trying day, but, ultimately, a successful one. ] ] At two bells of the morning watch, in moderate SSW ] topgallent staysail breeze, [...] ] ] Around six bells, we beat to quarters, dismasted the box, ] rebuilt her (a new copper bottom--with a decent trim she should ] do very well on a bowline) and floated her. [...] I just thought I'd mention that if you like this sort of thing, you might very well enjoy "Master and Commander". Speaking as a 21st-C. landlubber, I think this film went to great lengths to provide an excellent & reasonably realistic reproduction of a 19th-C. naval campaign. I also found myself trying assign Dragaeran Houses to the characters. Captain Aubry's tenacity, ferocity & suprising cleverness do seem to be definitely Orca-ish. Dr. Maturin is very much like a Hawk. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sat Nov 15 22:19:10 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 22:19:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fans Outraged at New Character in The Return of the King In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Uhh, is this a joke I'm not getting, or an MS mailer hiccoughing? On Sat, 15 Nov 2003, Johne Cook wrote: > We are we getting the same gag over and over? > > johne (phy) cook > wisconsin, usa > > personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com > aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ > stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ > > "There are only three rules to writing a novel; unfortunately, no one knows > what they are." > --Somerset Maugham > > > > > >From: Talpianna at aol.com > >To: jtoth at megrez.org, dragaera at dragaera.info > >Subject: Re: Fans Outraged at New Character in The Return of the King > >Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 17:03:43 EST > > > >In a message dated 11/15/2003 9:19:28 AM US Mountain Standard Time, > >jtoth at megrez.org writes: > >A picture of the new character (and the text I snipped) at: > > > > http://www.bbspot.com/News/2003/01/jaromir.html > >Thanks for posting this. I recalled too late that the pic in the e-mail > >wouldn't appear on this list. > > > > tal > > _________________________________________________________________ > Concerned that messages may bounce because your Hotmail account is over > limit? Get Hotmail Extra Storage! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es > > From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sat Nov 15 23:25:12 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 23:25:12 -0800 Subject: Concerning Matters Nautical References: Message-ID: <005401c3ac12$c628d760$fe00000a@steve> > I just thought I'd mention that if you like this sort of thing, you > might very well enjoy "Master and Commander". Speaking as a 21st-C. > landlubber, I think this film went to great lengths to provide an > excellent & reasonably realistic reproduction of a 19th-C. naval > campaign. > > I also found myself trying assign Dragaeran Houses to the characters. > Captain Aubry's tenacity, ferocity & suprising cleverness do seem to > be definitely Orca-ish. Dr. Maturin is very much like a Hawk. > Good to hear they did a good job. I'm going to be seeing the movie in the next week sometime, I hope. I'd always figured Jack as a Dragon, actually, though certainly you're right--Stephen is a textbook Hawk. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sat Nov 15 23:39:25 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 23:39:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Concerning Matters Nautical - Patrick O'Brian Spoilers In-Reply-To: <005401c3ac12$c628d760$fe00000a@steve> References: <005401c3ac12$c628d760$fe00000a@steve> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Nov 2003, Steven Brust wrote: >> David S. wrote: > > I just thought I'd mention that if you like this sort of thing, you > > might very well enjoy "Master and Commander". Speaking as a 21st-C. > > landlubber, I think this film went to great lengths to provide an > > excellent & reasonably realistic reproduction of a 19th-C. naval > > campaign. FWIW, Christopher Hitchens (who is often a nut but is at least a diehard O'Brian fan - see http://www.nybooks.com/articles/article-preview?article_id=188 ) sort of pans M&C at http://slate.msn.com/id/2091249/ - in particular because of the portrayal of Maturin. > > I also found myself trying assign Dragaeran Houses to the characters. > > Captain Aubry's tenacity, ferocity & suprising cleverness do seem to > > be definitely Orca-ish. Dr. Maturin is very much like a Hawk. > > > Good to hear they did a good job. I'm going to be seeing the movie in the > next week sometime, I hope. I'd always figured Jack as a Dragon, actually, > though certainly you're right--Stephen is a textbook Hawk. Is that correct? I thought M had rather Yendi qualities as a spy, maybe some Athyra, maybe some Dragon or Dzur re duelling. We're a bit lacking in Hawks to compare him to, unless we want to consider Daymar typical... Also note that Jack is not very Orcaish on land - he's got too much Falstaff in him, and he's too bad with money. And he's into astronomy, not a usual Dragaeran pursuit... From davids at kithrup.com Sun Nov 16 00:12:13 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 00:12:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Concerning Matters Nautical In-Reply-To: <005401c3ac12$c628d760$fe00000a@steve> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Nov 2003, Steven Brust wrote: > > > I just thought I'd mention that if you like this sort of thing, you >> might very well enjoy "Master and Commander". Speaking as a 21st-C. >> landlubber, I think this film went to great lengths to provide an >> excellent & reasonably realistic reproduction of a 19th-C. naval >> campaign. >> >> I also found myself trying assign Dragaeran Houses to the characters. >> Captain Aubry's tenacity, ferocity & suprising cleverness do seem to >> be definitely Orca-ish. Dr. Maturin is very much like a Hawk. >> > >Good to hear they did a good job. I'm going to be seeing the movie >in the next week sometime, I hope. I'd always figured Jack as a >Dragon, actually, I've always assumed that there must be a certain amount of overlap between House characteristics. Certainly the Orca must have a sufficiency of martial nature, given that they make up the Imperial Navy. Or did I misunderstand something? There are a couple of ruses that we see Aubrey use - if you've been reading the books, you probably know what they are - that reminded me of Kiera's thoughts about the air-pressure-alarm she finds. Although I may have been predisposed to think in that direction, given that the whole film takes place at sea. > >though certainly you're right--Stephen is a textbook Hawk. > Heh. The movie does tend to emphasize those qualities of his nature. I'm glad that I guessed *something* right. From bio_phy at hotmail.com Sun Nov 16 07:43:52 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 09:43:52 -0600 Subject: Concerning Matters Nautical Message-ID: Yeah, I was thinking Dragon yesterday, too, when we saw it. Why is it that everything I see is flavored with questions of their house? ;) Stephen mentions that "he fights like you". On another occasion, he makes the comment that although they were laying in wait, "Jack, *you're* the predator". I was carried away by life on a smaller (though prestigious) warship. It wasn't all action all the time, worked much better than way. You got a chance to see all the other little things that happen onboard a small, floating world. We quite enjoyed it. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ "There are only three rules to writing a novel; unfortunately, no one knows what they are." --Somerset Maugham >From: "Steven Brust" >To: "David Silberstein" , "Dragaera List" > >Subject: Re: Concerning Matters Nautical >Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 23:25:12 -0800 > > > > I just thought I'd mention that if you like this sort of thing, you > > might very well enjoy "Master and Commander". Speaking as a 21st-C. > > landlubber, I think this film went to great lengths to provide an > > excellent & reasonably realistic reproduction of a 19th-C. naval > > campaign. > > > > I also found myself trying assign Dragaeran Houses to the characters. > > Captain Aubry's tenacity, ferocity & suprising cleverness do seem to > > be definitely Orca-ish. Dr. Maturin is very much like a Hawk. > > > >Good to hear they did a good job. I'm going to be seeing the movie in the >next week sometime, I hope. I'd always figured Jack as a Dragon, actually, >though certainly you're right--Stephen is a textbook Hawk. > _________________________________________________________________ Frustrated with dial-up? Get high-speed for as low as $26.95. https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.) From bio_phy at hotmail.com Sun Nov 16 07:45:21 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 09:45:21 -0600 Subject: Fans Outraged at New Character in The Return of the King Message-ID: B, I'd say. I wrote my post once and have received it numerous times. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ "There are only three rules to writing a novel; unfortunately, no one knows what they are." --Somerset Maugham >Uhh, is this a joke I'm not getting, or an MS mailer hiccoughing? _________________________________________________________________ Is your computer infected with a virus? Find out with a FREE computer virus scan from McAfee. Take the FreeScan now! http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From ReVibe68 at aol.com Sun Nov 16 09:41:24 2003 From: ReVibe68 at aol.com (ReVibe68 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 12:41:24 EST Subject: Vladiad comicbook???? Message-ID: <2d.36bc3c18.2ce910c4@aol.com> In a message dated 11/13/03 7:59:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, casca913 at gbronline.com writes: > You know, every day you find out something that suprises you so much that > you almost die from laughter. Today I found such a thing. > > http://www.mojoworld.net/sil/treats/jhereg_comic.html > > I fell over laughing at the idea of a comicbook Jhereg and couldn't help > relaying it for those who have never seen the site. Be seated for this one :P > > Ykno, I saw this a couple of years ago. As I wasn't as well versed in Dragaeran or perhaps Vladiadian Lore back then I didnt catch the obvious booboos. Loiosh is not a dinosaur w/wings Stephen Hickman has forever nailed Loisoh in his art work. (Cover Jhereg). Dragonlords wear SOMETHING signifying their House, always., Dragaerans don't have facial hair. VLad aint no blond either. Politicians and Diapers have one thing in common. They should be changed regularly and for The Same Reason!!. Truth Is Truth. From dd-b at dd-b.net Sun Nov 16 10:21:39 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 16 Nov 2003 12:21:39 -0600 Subject: Concerning Matters Nautical - Patrick O'Brian Spoilers In-Reply-To: References: <005401c3ac12$c628d760$fe00000a@steve> Message-ID: Philip Hart writes: > On Sat, 15 Nov 2003, Steven Brust wrote: > > >> David S. wrote: > > > I just thought I'd mention that if you like this sort of thing, you > > > might very well enjoy "Master and Commander". Speaking as a 21st-C. > > > landlubber, I think this film went to great lengths to provide an > > > excellent & reasonably realistic reproduction of a 19th-C. naval > > > campaign. > > FWIW, Christopher Hitchens (who is often a nut but is at least a diehard > O'Brian fan - see > http://www.nybooks.com/articles/article-preview?article_id=188 ) sort of > pans M&C at http://slate.msn.com/id/2091249/ - in particular because of > the portrayal of Maturin. Yeah. He's very definitely not the character in the books. He's too self-assured, far too good-looking, too functional. He's downright graceful, not clumsy at everything he does except surgery. They also have Jack being indecisive over a life-and-death matter of seamanship, and Stephen arguing with him over it. They also have them using "grenades" (those little round "anarchist bombs" with fuses from the cartoons) as part of a boarding action (I never did figure out what people were lighting the fuses with). And it never sets the ship on fire, not even a little bit. On the other hand, it has really good imagery of sailing in heavy weather, and of a boarding action, and of receiving broadsides. And Jack is really pretty good. And they bothered to make up Pullings with his cutlass slash, even though it's never referred to anywhere in the movie. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From Talpianna at aol.com Sun Nov 16 10:45:28 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 13:45:28 EST Subject: Concerning Matters Nautical Message-ID: <1d4.1487031a.2ce91fc8@aol.com> My housemates went to see it yesterday and liked it very much. I haven't tried the books, having spent most of my youth reading the complete Hornblower saga; I feel I've been there, done that, and gotten the sailcloth tee shirt. I would be interested to hear comparisons from anyone who has read both series. tal From Talpianna at aol.com Sun Nov 16 10:46:30 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 13:46:30 EST Subject: Fans Outraged at New Character in The Return of the King Message-ID: In a message dated 11/16/2003 8:46:54 AM US Mountain Standard Time, bio_phy at hotmail.com writes: B, I'd say. I wrote my post once and have received it numerous times. Well, that answers your question, too. tal From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Nov 16 11:04:03 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 11:04:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Concerning Matters Nautical - Patrick O'Brian Spoilers In-Reply-To: References: <005401c3ac12$c628d760$fe00000a@steve> Message-ID: Now _I'm_ stuttering. Dragaera.info was down when I replied - I take it the mailer demon kept trying, and all the repeats got cached? From dd-b at dd-b.net Sun Nov 16 11:16:56 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 16 Nov 2003 13:16:56 -0600 Subject: Concerning Matters Nautical - Patrick O'Brian Spoilers In-Reply-To: References: <005401c3ac12$c628d760$fe00000a@steve> Message-ID: Philip Hart writes: > Now _I'm_ stuttering. Dragaera.info was down when I replied - I take it > the mailer demon kept trying, and all the repeats got cached? DNS for, I think. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From dd-b at dd-b.net Sun Nov 16 11:17:43 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 16 Nov 2003 13:17:43 -0600 Subject: Concerning Matters Nautical In-Reply-To: <1d4.1487031a.2ce91fc8@aol.com> References: <1d4.1487031a.2ce91fc8@aol.com> Message-ID: Talpianna at aol.com writes: > My housemates went to see it yesterday and liked it very much. I > haven't tried the books, having spent most of my youth reading the > complete Hornblower saga; I feel I've been there, done that, and > gotten the sailcloth tee shirt. I would be interested to hear > comparisons from anyone who has read both series. O'Brian is much better written, and covers more geographical areas and more parts of society than the Hornblower books. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Nov 16 11:25:30 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 11:25:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Concerning Matters Nautical In-Reply-To: References: <1d4.1487031a.2ce91fc8@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Talpianna at aol.com writes: > > > My housemates went to see it yesterday and liked it very much. I > > haven't tried the books, having spent most of my youth reading the > > complete Hornblower saga; I feel I've been there, done that, and > > gotten the sailcloth tee shirt. I would be interested to hear > > comparisons from anyone who has read both series. > > O'Brian is much better written [...] I think the first two chapters of Post Captain are the best Jane Austen since Jane Austen. From pddb at demesne.com Sun Nov 16 11:38:48 2003 From: pddb at demesne.com (pddb at demesne.com) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 13:38:48 -0600 Subject: Concerning Matters Nautical In-Reply-To: <1d4.1487031a.2ce91fc8@aol.com>; from Talpianna@aol.com on Sun, Nov 16, 2003 at 01:45:28PM -0500 References: <1d4.1487031a.2ce91fc8@aol.com> Message-ID: <20031116133848.A18985@gw.dd-b.net> On Sun, Nov 16, 2003 at 01:45:28PM -0500, Talpianna at aol.com wrote: > My housemates went to see it yesterday and liked it very much. I haven't > tried the books, having spent most of my youth reading the complete Hornblower > saga; I feel I've been there, done that, and gotten the sailcloth tee shirt. I > would be interested to hear comparisons from anyone who has read both series. I have read both series. The subject matter is similar, but the whole approach could hardly be more different, given that both writers are using the English language. Forester uses contemporary language and literary techniques. O'Brian uses those, but he also uses a hundred quirky old-fashioned linguistic and literary techniques as well as some remarkably modern versions of the latter. His pacing and emphasis vary radically from book to book; you might have the same basic elements, a battle at sea, a navigation problem, strange natural phenomena, whether meteorological or biological or botanical; a smoldering below-decks romance, an estrangement between old friends; but how they are treated varies all over the place depending on what he wants the book to do. O'Brian is deeper than Forester, and he's also about a hundred times funnier, and his entire range is far wider. I adore the O'Brian; I like and admire the Forester. Having said all this, I guess I should add that O'Brian is as good as anybody in creating and extending suspense, in creating narrative lust (the sensation that you must keep reading, you can't stop, you must know WHAT HAPPENED). But he does far, far more than this, sometimes separately and sometimes all intertwined. I mean, come on, the AUTHOR OF THE VLAD AND PAARFI NOVELS loves O'Brian. What more need be said? -- Pamela Dean Dyer-Bennet (pddb at demesne.com) "I will open my heart to a blank page and interview the witnesses." John M. Ford, "Shared World" From davids at kithrup.com Sun Nov 16 12:34:02 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 12:34:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Concerning Matters Nautical In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >On Sat, 15 Nov 2003, Steven Brust wrote: > >>> David S. wrote: >> > Captain Aubry's tenacity, ferocity & suprising cleverness do seem >> > to be definitely Orca-ish. Dr. Maturin is very much like a Hawk. >> > >> Good to hear they did a good job. I'm going to be seeing the movie >> in the next week sometime, I hope. I'd always figured Jack as a >> Dragon, actually, though certainly you're right--Stephen is a >> textbook Hawk. [snip spoilers about Stephen Maturin, who does sound like a more complex character than what was portrayed in the movie] I should mention that my perceptions are only derived from the movie; I have not yet read the O'Brian novels, although I have heard good things about the books before seeing the movie. > We're a bit lacking in Hawks to compare him to, unless we want to >consider Daymar typical... Paarfi is a Hawklord as well (although I sometimes suspect him of actually being a Yendi, although that may just be Steve). Keep this in mind as you read his histories. >Also note that Jack is not very Orcaish on land - he's got too much >Falstaff in him, and he's too bad with money. As I've suggested elsewhere, Orca seem to have the greatest amount of internal variation of the Houses. Also, consider that not all Dragons are great generals; there are no doubt Orca who are bad with money. I think the point of /Orca/ is that the merchant banks are what arise when Orca who *are* good with money go into the money-making business. Heck, consider that Fyres' problem was that he was not, in fact, good with money. He was good at *pretending* he was good with money. > And he's into astronomy, not a usual Dragaeran pursuit... I bet there are a *lot* of Hawklords who would be very much into astronomy if they could be. Orca would also be, if only for the practical value of navigation. In fact, I bet some of the elfs (or "demons") out East (or West) are just astronomers who are fed up with the bloody damned Overcast. From Talpianna at aol.com Sun Nov 16 12:41:07 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:41:07 EST Subject: Concerning Matters Nautical Message-ID: <134.27e7649f.2ce93ae3@aol.com> Sounds like the Hornblower books were just right for me in my adolescent days, but I'd get more out of reading the O'Brian ones now that I am ancient. Will give them a try. tal From ReVibe68 at aol.com Sun Nov 16 19:42:39 2003 From: ReVibe68 at aol.com (ReVibe68 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 22:42:39 EST Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: <1a6.1ce12e67.2ce99daf@aol.com> POSSIBLE SPOILERS Ok. at the end of LcCB Piro and Krytaan & CO. go renegade. Perhaps they turn Jhereg. If this is so....Is it possible that Krytaan who's a Dragonlord, eventually changes his name to Kragar??And maybe Piro becomes the Demon? I dunno what do y'all think. Am I crazy? Lemme kno. From mam at theworld.com Sun Nov 16 19:46:53 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 22:46:53 -0500 Subject: Vladiad comicbook???? In-Reply-To: <000c01c3aa4a$6a2a8860$08570945@pentium4> Message-ID: "My household appliance is on drugs. Horrible." Oh... my....... Goddess?? No, wait a minute. Beards? Vlad smoking. Well, Gandalf does too, but SKZB hasn't mentioned this particular vice that I recall. But I'm more bothered by its being a cigarette. Aliera doesn't worry about breaking a glass on Morrolan's floor even if she is barefoot, 'cause her feet don't touch the ground. Aliera isn't supposed to be blonde, is she? Or is she? SpellBINDER?! Gaaahhhh.... And blue? What's the use of wearing braces*, Hats and spats and shoes with laces, Things you buy in fancy places Down on Brompton Road? What's the use of shirts of cotton, Studs that always get forgotten? Such affairs are simply rotten, Better far is woad! -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname http://world.std.com/~mam/filk.html Now on the Filker's Bardic Webring! From laurao at ix.netcom.com Sun Nov 16 20:00:46 2003 From: laurao at ix.netcom.com (Laura Osgood) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 23:00:46 -0500 Subject: Concerning Matters Nautical - Patrick O'Brian Spoilers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001401c3acbf$61db5140$5068f7a5@nightcrawler> -----Original Message----- From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU] FWIW, Christopher Hitchens (who is often a nut but is at least a diehard O'Brian fan - see http://www.nybooks.com/articles/article-preview?article_id=188 ) sort of pans M&C at http://slate.msn.com/id/2091249/ - in particular because of the portrayal of Maturin. I thought that the actor did a fine job as Maturin with the material that he was given. There is virtually nothing in the movie about Maturin's background. This movie is not an Aubrey-Maturin story. It's all about Jack. This isn't necessarily a bad thing if you take the movie solely on its own merit and don't try to compare it to the novels. That said, the movie left me unmoved and unengaged, but then, so did the novels when I tried to read them a few years ago. One day I intend to give them another try. From mam at theworld.com Sun Nov 16 20:01:33 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 23:01:33 -0500 Subject: Vladiad comicbook???? In-Reply-To: <2d.36bc3c18.2ce910c4@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 ReVibe68 at aol.com wrote: #Ykno, I saw this a couple of years ago. As I wasn't as well versed in #Dragaeran or perhaps Vladiadian Lore back then I didnt catch the #obvious booboos. Loiosh is not a dinosaur w/wings Stephen Hickman has #forever nailed Loisoh in his art work. (Cover Jhereg). I know what you mean, but someone's art -- I can't remember whose, but it's been on the list & it's on the web -- shows Loiosh as having four limbs (two legs + two wings), not six (4+2) like those covers and the usual dragon imagery, and Steve has said here that that's the anatomy he envisions for jheregs. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From ReVibe68 at aol.com Sun Nov 16 20:03:55 2003 From: ReVibe68 at aol.com (ReVibe68 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 23:03:55 EST Subject: Vladiad comicbook???? Message-ID: <1d5.1470de03.2ce9a2ab@aol.com> In a message dated 11/16/03 10:47:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, mam at theworld.com writes: > Aliera isn't supposed to be blonde, is she? Or is she? > Yah. She's from a rare strain of the e'Kieron House of The Dragon line. Aformentioned genetic line has uncommon trait of Blonde hair color. Politicians and Diapers have one thing in common. They should be changed regularly and for The Same Reason!!. Truth Is Truth. From ReVibe68 at aol.com Sun Nov 16 21:05:04 2003 From: ReVibe68 at aol.com (ReVibe68 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 00:05:04 EST Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: <66.391962c8.2ce9b100@aol.com> In a message dated 11/16/03 11:05:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, mam at theworld.com writes: > Um, it's Kytraan. > --- > > Not Krytaan. > --- > > I would have assumed it was a typo, but you spelled it that way all > three times, counting the subject line. > So my spelling is off. Thank you for correcting me. What pray tell do you think of my speculation? For you perceive that I am awaiting your thoughts with much anticipation. Politicians and Diapers have one thing in common. They should be changed regularly and for The Same Reason!!. Truth Is Truth. From davids at kithrup.com Sun Nov 16 23:13:19 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 23:13:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <66.391962c8.2ce9b100@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 ReVibe68 at aol.com wrote: >POSSIBLE SPOILERS >Ok. at the end of LcCB Piro and Krytaan & CO. go renegade. Perhaps >they turn Jhereg. If this is so....Is it possible that Krytaan who's >a Dragonlord, eventually changes his name to Kragar? And maybe Piro >becomes the Demon? I dunno what do y'all think. Am I crazy? Lemme >kno. And also: >What pray tell do you think of my speculation? For you perceive that >I am awaiting your thoughts with much anticipation. Well. Speaking as one who sometimes indulges in parare^W speculation as well, I nearly think that I have two words to say regarding this theory. To begin with, I shall, as did Lord Mailliw of Mahkco at the battle of Rozar, attack the rear flank before advancing to the fore. Consider, if you will, that the Demon's age is given as about 800 years old. Now Piro, assuming he lives until the time of Vladimir Taltos, would only be about 370 or so. Clearly, this is far too young. But even if we allow that he has aged prematurely, there is also his looks. Piro has the appearance of a Tiassa. The Demon looks like a Jhereg (or at least, Vlad does not comment otherwise). In addition, there is the matter of, hmm, propriety. Given that Piro is the Viscount of Adrilankha, I nearly think it would be far too painful for him to remain in the city, causing embarrassment to his mother and father (and while he is enraged at them, you will note that he wished to distance himself from them, not cause them shame in their own city). There is also the matter of behavior: While Piro might act as a road agent in order to express his rage, I cannot see him accepting the role of Jhereg so throroughly as to induldge in such great amount of murder and other base crimes as the Demon did. Finally, there is a certain inconsistency between the first part of your thesis and the second: Kragar looks at the Demon with no recognition. If he were Kytraan, would he not give at least some sign of recognition? Moving now to the matter of Kytraan, well, you perceive that Kragar's most notable feature is his lack of feature; his complete "fade" from peoples' senses. You will note that Kytraan does not have this feature. In addition, Kragar has some small skill at research and insight. While Kytraan may have learned this in the 222 years that have presumably passed, still, it remains a point of difference. Finally, there is the matter of the House. *Is* running off to become a road agent a crime which is sufficiently bad to warrant expulsion, yet not death? Well, we do not know. In sum, I think there is nearly a complete lack of evidence for this theory, yet, you perceive, the first part is not totally impossible, although the two parts together are so unlikely as to be vanishingly improbable. If it turns out that you are correct, well, we shall all, of necessity, be obliged to celebrate your perspicacity. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Nov 16 23:30:28 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 23:30:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vladiad comicbook???? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > > What's the use of wearing braces*, > Hats and spats and shoes with laces, > Things you buy in fancy places > Down on Brompton Road? > What's the use of shirts of cotton, > Studs that always get forgotten? > Such affairs are simply rotten, > Better far is woad! > > -- Mark A. Mandel > http://cracksandshards.com > a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website > > -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname > http://world.std.com/~mam/filk.html > Now on the Filker's Bardic Webring! *Woad Ode NATIONAL ANTHEM OF THE ANCIENT BRITONS (to the tune of "Men of Harlech") by Colin Douthwaite From davids at kithrup.com Sun Nov 16 23:46:27 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 23:46:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vladiad comicbook???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: >> >> What's the use of wearing braces*, >> Hats and spats and shoes with laces, >> Things you buy in fancy places >> Down on Brompton Road? >> What's the use of shirts of cotton, >> Studs that always get forgotten? >> Such affairs are simply rotten, >> Better far is woad! > >*Woad Ode > >NATIONAL ANTHEM OF THE ANCIENT BRITONS >(to the tune of "Men of Harlech") > >by Colin Douthwaite > *Also, "braces" (British) == "suspenders" (American) We won't get into the matter of pants. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Nov 16 23:57:09 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 23:57:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vladiad comicbook???? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > >On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > >> > >> What's the use of wearing braces*, > >> Hats and spats and shoes with laces, > ... > > > >*Woad Ode > > > >NATIONAL ANTHEM OF THE ANCIENT BRITONS > >(to the tune of "Men of Harlech") > > > >by Colin Douthwaite > > > > *Also, "braces" (British) == "suspenders" (American) > We won't get into the matter of pants. My bad - surely that's what he meant to gloss. Though I understood what "braces" meant in this context, but I wouldn't want to have to define "spats" before a national audience. On the subject of words, "catamite" (see _Orca_) comes from "Ganymede", Zeus's "cupbearer". I wonder what the Dragaeran equivalent is. And "torrent" (a violent flow of water) comes from "torrens" - boiling, burning - from "torrere" to parch. From brian.vanskyock at zimmer.com Mon Nov 17 04:59:37 2003 From: brian.vanskyock at zimmer.com (Brian Vanskyock) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 07:59:37 -0500 Subject: [SFandF_Refuge] Fans Outraged at New Character in The Return ofthe King References: <1dc.1471a672.2ce6a56b@aol.com> <001c01c3ab06$fa35a900$19d1fdd8@pentium4> Message-ID: <3FB8C639.33AD95E7@zimmer.com> Charlie Smith wrote: > OMG! I cant express how hillarious it is in words! It's like a koala bear craped a rainbow in my brain! the picture was very funny, but .... "a koala bear crapped a rainbow in my brain!" this is very original b From pgranzeau at cox.net Mon Nov 17 08:26:11 2003 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 11:26:11 -0500 Subject: Vladiad comicbook???? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031117112551.029fcec0@pop.east.cox.net> At 02:57 11/17/2003, Philip Hart wrote: >My bad - surely that's what he meant to gloss. Though I understood what >"braces" meant in this context, but I wouldn't want to have to define >"spats" before a national audience. Gaiters. -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From bio_phy at hotmail.com Mon Nov 17 08:40:18 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 10:40:18 -0600 Subject: [SFandF_Refuge] Fans Outraged at New Character in The Return ofthe King Message-ID: I was going to say "colorful" but thought better of it... ;) johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa personal blog: http://breezeway.blogspot.com aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ stormfort list: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stormfort/ "There are only three rules to writing a novel; unfortunately, no one knows what they are." --Somerset Maugham >From: Brian Vanskyock >the picture was very funny, but .... "a koala bear crapped a rainbow in my >brain!" this is very original > >b _________________________________________________________________ Is your computer infected with a virus? Find out with a FREE computer virus scan from McAfee. Take the FreeScan now! http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From zarkon at illrepute.org Mon Nov 17 09:02:21 2003 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 12:02:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: [SFandF_Refuge] Fans Outraged at New Character in The Return ofthe King In-Reply-To: <3FB8C639.33AD95E7@zimmer.com> References: <1dc.1471a672.2ce6a56b@aol.com> <001c01c3ab06$fa35a900$19d1fdd8@pentium4> <3FB8C639.33AD95E7@zimmer.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, Brian Vanskyock wrote: @> Charlie Smith wrote: @> @> > OMG! I cant express how hillarious it is in words! It's like a @> > koala bear craped a rainbow in my brain! @> @> the picture was very funny, but .... "a koala bear crapped a rainbow @> in my brain!" this is very original Actually, I'm pretty sure it's a Sealab 2021 reference. From mam at theworld.com Mon Nov 17 10:09:04 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 13:09:04 -0500 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <66.391962c8.2ce9b100@aol.com> Message-ID: #So my spelling is off. Thank you for correcting me. #What pray tell do you think of my speculation? For you perceive that I am #awaiting your thoughts with much anticipation. I admit the possibility of the scenario that you project, but I am of the opinion that as yet we have insufficient evidence on which to evaluate the likelihood of its being the case. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From Talpianna at aol.com Mon Nov 17 10:18:58 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 13:18:58 EST Subject: Vladiad comicbook???? Message-ID: <152.26e67c59.2cea6b12@aol.com> In a message dated 11/16/2003 8:52:05 PM US Mountain Standard Time, mam at theworld.com writes: Vlad smoking. Well, Gandalf does too, but SKZB hasn't mentioned this particular vice that I recall. But I'm more bothered by its being a cigarette. Aliera doesn't worry about breaking a glass on Morrolan's floor even if she is barefoot, 'cause her feet don't touch the ground. Aliera isn't supposed to be blonde, is she? Or is she? Is there not a reference somewhere to Noish-pa smoking a pipe? I have a very vague memory of his doing so in the shop during a visit from Vlad and Cawti, but I could be thinking of three other people. I thought Aliera had reddish-blonde hair, but again it's a vague memory. tal From Talpianna at aol.com Mon Nov 17 10:23:40 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 13:23:40 EST Subject: Vladiad comicbook???? Message-ID: <7f.3f3ff290.2cea6c2c@aol.com> In a message dated 11/16/2003 9:21:54 PM US Mountain Standard Time, ReVibe68 at aol.com writes: > Aliera isn't supposed to be blonde, is she? Or is she? > Yah. She's from a rare strain of the e'Kieron House of The Dragon line. Aformentioned genetic line has uncommon trait of Blonde hair color. The cover of LoCB shows a blond Morrolan. That can't be right, can it? tal From Talpianna at aol.com Mon Nov 17 10:28:34 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 13:28:34 EST Subject: Vladiad comicbook???? Message-ID: <77.1c9146ec.2cea6d52@aol.com> In a message dated 11/17/2003 12:46:49 AM US Mountain Standard Time, davids at kithrup.com writes: *Also, "braces" (British) == "suspenders" (American) We won't get into the matter of pants. Is it wise, Grasshopper, to assume everyone knows what spats are? tal From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Mon Nov 17 11:20:39 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 14:20:39 -0500 Subject: Vladiad comicbook???? In-Reply-To: <77.1c9146ec.2cea6d52@aol.com> References: <77.1c9146ec.2cea6d52@aol.com> Message-ID: <3FB91F87.4060400@earthlink.net> Talpianna at aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 11/17/2003 12:46:49 AM US Mountain Standard Time, >davids at kithrup.com writes: >*Also, "braces" (British) == "suspenders" (American) >We won't get into the matter of pants. > > >Is it wise, Grasshopper, to assume everyone knows what spats are? > > > Aren't those the activities that I frequently engage in with my significant other? You know, heated arguments, but yelling is kept to a minimum? Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From davids at kithrup.com Mon Nov 17 11:46:45 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 11:46:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vladiad comicbook???? In-Reply-To: <77.1c9146ec.2cea6d52@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 Talpianna at aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 11/17/2003 12:46:49 AM US Mountain Standard Time, >davids at kithrup.com writes: >>*Also, "braces" (British) == "suspenders" (American) >>We won't get into the matter of pants. > >Is it wise, Grasshopper, to assume everyone knows what spats are? Oh, I assume nothing. But "spats" is a unique term, referring to only one sort of thing that is worn [1], and the truly curious could, for example, easily look it up, whereas Americans seeing the term "braces" could easily be confused, and wonder what, exactly, orthodontic aids have to do with the other items of fashion, and perhaps might even mistakenly think that the author used the wrong term. [1] As compared to the plural of an argument, or misspelling the past participle of "spit", or whatever. From dgf at dd-b.net Mon Nov 17 15:17:01 2003 From: dgf at dd-b.net (dgf at dd-b.net) Date: 17 Nov 2003 23:17:01 -0000 Subject: Dragaera subscriber list Message-ID: <20031117231701.8592.qmail@dd-b.net> acwest-dragaera (at) craigwest.net (email) "A. 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Nonymous" yukio_toko (at) yahoo.com (email) yukiotoko imp-thing zaphod (at) charter.net (email) "Greg Schwartz" zarkon (at) illrepute.org (email) John Klein From ReVibe68 at aol.com Mon Nov 17 15:59:24 2003 From: ReVibe68 at aol.com (ReVibe68 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 18:59:24 EST Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: <19a.1d33e007.2ceabadc@aol.com> In a message dated 11/17/03 2:13:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, davids at kithrup.com writes: > In sum, I think there is nearly a complete lack of evidence for this > theory, yet, you perceive, the first part is not totally impossible, > although the two parts together are so unlikely as to be vanishingly > improbable. > > If it turns out that you are correct, well, we shall all, of > necessity, be obliged to celebrate your perspicacity. > SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS Well. That is to say "ahem", Well Done Sir! I am,I assure you,most humbly gratified to be corrected yet again. I am looking for connections between the Vladiad and The Viscount of Adrilanka as well as The Khaavren Romances or rather the reverse actually.Looking for any clues that would give me the identity of the Demon as well as Kragar. We've already seen where Loraan comes in. .as a puppet of Kana. We know that Khaavren is alive in Phoenix (although in that appearance he was quite the bully). It would not suprise me that SKZB has peppered Viscount and Khaavren Romances with other clues. Thoughts anyone? Politicians and Diapers have one thing in common. They should be changed regularly and for The Same Reason!!. Truth Is Truth. From ReVibe68 at aol.com Mon Nov 17 16:14:12 2003 From: ReVibe68 at aol.com (ReVibe68 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 19:14:12 EST Subject: Vladiad comicbook???? Message-ID: <1d2.14a53606.2ceabe54@aol.com> In a message dated 11/17/03 1:23:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, Talpianna writes: > The cover of LoCB shows a blond Morrolan. That can't be right, can it? > > IMO??? Nope. Its a Fubar. Politicians and Diapers have one thing in common. They should be changed regularly and for The Same Reason!!. Truth Is Truth. From akodobob at sbcglobal.net Mon Nov 17 16:54:32 2003 From: akodobob at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 16:54:32 -0800 Subject: Brust Fans in the weirdest places References: Message-ID: <002001c3ad6e$8cb6e4b0$6501a8c0@DELL1> Hey, I was browsing in the local bookstore when I caught notice this book about prowrestlers, now I used to be a fan of the WWF before it sucked, so I checked out the stuff some of my former favorite wrestlers said. It turned out that the guy who plays the Wrestler named Edge is a fan of Brust's "To Reign in Hell" and he said so in this book. I think its cool that it happened and to know that this Wrestler likes the book enough to mention it to all his fans. Thought I'd mention it. Akodo Bob -who was a Fan of Edge back in the good old days From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Mon Nov 17 18:46:58 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 18:46:58 -0800 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <19a.1d33e007.2ceabadc@aol.com> References: <19a.1d33e007.2ceabadc@aol.com> Message-ID: <20031118024657.GA5650@ofb.net> On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 06:59:24PM -0500, ReVibe68 at aol.com wrote: > SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS > > > > > > > I am looking for connections between the Vladiad and The Viscount of > Adrilanka as well as The Khaavren Romances or rather the reverse > actually.Looking for any clues that would give me the identity of the Demon > as well as Kragar. We've already seen where Loraan comes in. .as a puppet > of Kana. We know that Khaavren is alive in Phoenix (although in that > appearance he was quite the bully). > It would not suprise me that SKZB has peppered Viscount and Khaavren Romances > with other clues. In fact it would surprise me. Vladimir Taltos is a Jhereg assassin, whose life has largely been spent among the dregs of society. Khaavren and his friends and his families have been involved in the highest affairs of the Empire. Now, the author is forced to admit that the Jhereg Easterner has also, for inexplicable reasons, some connections to Imperial affairs, and to those more directly involved. But those same connections are through honorable nobles who do not stoop to hidden identities, and we have already been allowed to see those connections -- Morrolan, and Zerika, and the recovering of Aliera right after the Interregnum, and of course Sethra Lavode. To be precise, readers of the light crime fiction known as the Vlad Taltos novels could have predicted seeing those very characters. But the Demon, whom we are told was an active Jhereg before the Interregnum, is someone whom we have no reason to see in the more historical works. As for Khaavren, I fail to see how a gentleman commander's endeavoring to minimize the casualties among revolting Easterners, despite the fact that their miserable lifespans would run out in short order anyway, could possibly be mistaken for the appearance of a bully. It is true that he is somewhat gruff, but then that is how he appears in his own books, and a gruff but watchful command is far removed from the dominant bluster of a bully. And if he were to read your comments I do not think I would be far wrong in pretending that he would be within his rights to demand satisfaction from you. But no doubt you will be spared such accounting to a noble whose services to the Empire have been attested to by Sethra Lavode herself. Yours truly, Sir Damien Sullivan, House of the Phoenix From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Nov 17 18:56:24 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 18:56:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <20031118024657.GA5650@ofb.net> References: <19a.1d33e007.2ceabadc@aol.com> <20031118024657.GA5650@ofb.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, Damien Sullivan wrote: > In fact it would surprise me. Vladimir Taltos is a Jhereg assassin, whose > life has largely been spent among the dregs of society. Even thought Aliera and Morrolan are violent, vindictive, and sometimes petty, I don't think you can call them "dregs" - oh, from the below I see that you weren't referring to them. > ... Now, the author is forced to admit that the Jhereg Easterner has > also, for inexplicable reasons, some connections to Imperial affairs, and > to those more directly involved. But those same connections are through > honorable nobles who do not stoop to hidden identities, and we have already > been allowed to see those connections -- Morrolan, and Zerika, and the > recovering of Aliera right after the Interregnum, and of course Sethra Lavode. From ReVibe68 at aol.com Mon Nov 17 19:39:19 2003 From: ReVibe68 at aol.com (ReVibe68 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 22:39:19 EST Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: <12b.353f0b28.2ceaee67@aol.com> In a message dated 11/17/03 9:57:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu writes: > , I fail to see how a gentleman commander's endeavoring to > minimize the casualties among revolting Easterners, despite the fact that > their miserable lifespans would run out in short order anyway, could > possibly > be mistaken for the appearance of a bully. Of course you fail. That is why you don't perceive Khaavren as a bully. I believe that marking someone on both cheeks with your sword, whose trying to actually help YOU could be considered to be somewhat unfair. Perhaps one could say that such action is highly impetous as well as foolhardy. However when one fails, as you so obviously have, on a repeated basis to perceive what is in front of one's face....... Well, I could hardly be suprised that once again you mistakenly perceive or to put it more succinctly mis-perceive. Be that as it may I am just a humble Easterner and beg your forgiveness of my inadverdant correction of the aforementioned misperception. Forever at your service in this matter I remain, Cstraw, Count re'VibeZ From mam at theworld.com Tue Nov 18 09:26:08 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:26:08 -0500 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <12b.353f0b28.2ceaee67@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 ReVibe68 at aol.com wrote: #Of course you fail. That is why you don't perceive Khaavren as a bully. I #believe that marking someone on both cheeks with your sword, whose trying to #actually help YOU could be considered to be somewhat unfair. Perhaps one could #say that such action is highly impetous as well as foolhardy. If I recall correctly, that was not Khaavren, but a woman who was in command earlier in the action. (My books are currently packed away.) -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From mklahn at mac.com Tue Nov 18 10:18:23 2003 From: mklahn at mac.com (Matthew Klahn) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:18:23 -0600 Subject: Vladiad comicbook???? In-Reply-To: <1d2.14a53606.2ceabe54@aol.com> References: <1d2.14a53606.2ceabe54@aol.com> Message-ID: <9862F5D6-19F3-11D8-A22C-000393D1260C@mac.com> On Nov 17, 2003, at 18:14 , ReVibe68 at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/17/03 1:23:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, Talpianna > writes: > > >> The cover of LoCB shows a blond Morrolan. That can't be right, can >> it? >> >> > > IMO??? Nope. Its a Fubar. > Politicians and Diapers have one thing in common. > They should be changed regularly and for The Same Reason!!. > Truth Is Truth. I don't think that Morrolan is supposed to be blond on that cover, rather he just has nice, shiny hair, and sunlight is reflecting from it. I think his hair on the cover is brownish-black, which is also wrong, (it should be just black, _Jhereg_ pg. 81 "Morrolan's hair was as black as [Vlad's], whereas Aliera had golden hair - rare in a Dragaeran and almost unheard of in a Dragonlord.", I just happen to be carrying that book around with me... :) ). Someone before had mentioned that Morrolan looks like John Travolta on that cover, circa _Pulp Fiction_, which I agree with (and am disturbed by). I also thought that Piro on the cover of PotD looks not unlike Christian Slater. Maybe our cover artist is suggesting actors for some film version of the Paarfi books? One cannot help but speculate on such matters... -- Matthew S. Klahn Software Architect, CodeTek Studios, Inc. http://www.codetek.com From mklahn at mac.com Tue Nov 18 10:26:34 2003 From: mklahn at mac.com (Matthew Klahn) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:26:34 -0600 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 18, 2003, at 11:26 , Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 ReVibe68 at aol.com wrote: > > #Of course you fail. That is why you don't perceive Khaavren as a > bully. I > #believe that marking someone on both cheeks with your sword, whose > trying to > #actually help YOU could be considered to be somewhat unfair. Perhaps > one could > #say that such action is highly impetous as well as foolhardy. > > If I recall correctly, that was not Khaavren, but a woman who was in > command earlier in the action. (My books are currently packed away.) > > -- Mark A. Mandel > http://cracksandshards.com > a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website Agreed, that was not Khaavren, and was, indeed, just the Lieutenant Dragonlord (which makes more sense). And, Damien, as for "honorable nobles" not condescending to "stoop to hidden identities", have you *read* Orca? -- Matthew S. Klahn Software Architect, CodeTek Studios, Inc. http://www.codetek.com From davids at kithrup.com Tue Nov 18 11:31:20 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:31:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 ReVibe68 at aol.com wrote: > >#Of course you fail. That is why you don't perceive Khaavren as a >#bully. I believe that marking someone on both cheeks with your >#sword, whose trying to actually help YOU could be considered to be >#somewhat unfair. Perhaps one could say that such action is highly >#impetous as well as foolhardy. > >If I recall correctly, that was not Khaavren, but a woman who was in >command earlier in the action. (My books are currently packed away.) > You do indeed recall correctly. I have found the scene you are thinking of (/Teckla/, ch. 9, pg. 119 (Ace ed.)), and, interestingly, it is not Khaavren and Vlad, but rather a Lieutenant of the Phoenix Guards and Herth. Herth, as readers may not recall, is the bad guy in that story. When Vlad meets Khaavren in /Teckla/ (ch. 16, pg. 209 (Ace ed.)), all he says is: "There will be no trouble. It was a mistake. These Easterners are going to leave now. I just want to tell you that." And that is the end of it. Khaavren neither deigns to speak to him, nor raises his weapon. I also looked in /Phoenix/, and all I could find regarding Khaavren was that the Brigadier of the Phoenix Guards had in fact resigned, apparently in protest over the handling of the whole conscription and uprising business. So, to hammer the point home, there is indeed no evidence whatsoever that Khaavren is, was, or indeed ever shall be, a bully. Quite the opposite, in fact. From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Tue Nov 18 12:17:59 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:17:59 -0800 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031118201759.GA12930@ofb.net> On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 12:26:34PM -0600, Matthew Klahn wrote: > And, Damien, as for "honorable nobles" not condescending to "stoop to > hidden identities", have you *read* Orca? Of course. But that, dear sir, is an exception. -xx- Damien X-) From casca913 at gbronline.com Tue Nov 18 12:19:01 2003 From: casca913 at gbronline.com (Charlie Smith) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:19:01 -0600 Subject: [SFandF_Refuge] Fans Outraged at New Character in The Return ofthe King Message-ID: <001201c3ae11$35f372d0$dad2fdd8@pentium4> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Klein" To: "vlad" Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 11:02 AM Subject: Re: [SFandF_Refuge] Fans Outraged at New Character in The Return ofthe King > On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, Brian Vanskyock wrote: > > @> Charlie Smith wrote: > @> > @> > OMG! I cant express how hillarious it is in words! It's like a > @> > koala bear craped a rainbow in my brain! > @> > @> the picture was very funny, but .... "a koala bear crapped a rainbow > @> in my brain!" this is very original > > Actually, I'm pretty sure it's a Sealab 2021 reference. > > Congratulations, You win a 25 orb gift certificate usable at any of the one Valabar's locations. Enjoy your meal and remember, "If it doesn't say Valabar's Kethna Livers on the package, it's not real Kethna." -- Charlie Smith -- "Well?" said Adron, the Duke of Eastmanswatch. "I have not rebelled yet, and his Majesty may yet apologize." -- -- Year 532 of the Reign of Tortaalik the First, Phoenix Reign From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Nov 18 12:25:05 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:25:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <20031118201759.GA12930@ofb.net> References: <20031118201759.GA12930@ofb.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Damien Sullivan wrote: > On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 12:26:34PM -0600, Matthew Klahn wrote: > > > And, Damien, as for "honorable nobles" not condescending to "stoop to > > hidden identities", have you *read* Orca? > > Of course. But that, dear sir, is an exception. Dumb question, but is Sethra technically a noble? I can certainly imagine she's been knighted or whatever, but maybe titles, uhh, expire upon death. Or she might not have bothered. I believe I recall Vlad saying she likes to be announced as just SL - maybe he doesn't realize there's nothing more to be announced... From mklahn at mac.com Tue Nov 18 13:22:30 2003 From: mklahn at mac.com (Matthew Klahn) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 15:22:30 -0600 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: References: <20031118201759.GA12930@ofb.net> Message-ID: <5151A61A-1A0D-11D8-A22C-000393D1260C@mac.com> On Nov 18, 2003, at 14:25 , Philip Hart wrote: > Dumb question, but is Sethra technically a noble? I can certainly > imagine > she's been knighted or whatever, but maybe titles, uhh, expire upon > death. > Or she might not have bothered. I believe I recall Vlad saying she > likes > to be announced as just SL - maybe he doesn't realize there's nothing > more > to be announced... You know, this is a very interesting question. According to _Five Hundred Years After_ (which I've just re-read after reading LoCB; I'm not some geek who remembers every tiny... detail... Well, ok, maybe I'm that too... :) ), Sethra's parentage is unknown. Now, nobility is just hereditary, or you have to earn a title (and accept it, which I'm not sure whether Sethra would or would not do), which I'm sure that Sethra has earned many, many times over. However, she does hold Dzur mountain and surrounding environs, so she must be some form of noble or other. Just because people don't choose to live & farm on Dzur mountain, you can hardly fault Sethra... :) I'd have to say that if she's been Warlord countless times, it is likely that she is a noble of some form. Speaking of all of this, and I'm not trying to get off-topic (ha! As if topic-coherence has any place in this mailing list), you'd have to wonder is she a noble in House Dzur or House Dragon? She's been called a Dragonlord by none less than Emperor Tortaalik I (in FHYA, though I forget exactly where; in the part where Tortaalik is speaking to Noima about Sethra & Aliera challenging each other daily to duels, he says something like "Are they not Dragonlords?"), and someone tell us (in _Issola_, IIRC) that she's a Dzur. She's definitely beaten enough Dzur champions to earn a place in House Dzur (though, technically, I believe the House has to CHOOSE the champions for one to defeat to be included, and it has always sounded to me like they just spontaneously start charging up the mountain on their own and are not sent up by the House), and even if she hasn't is there any doubt that she could? But, finally, does any of this matter to Sethra? Does she really care if she's a noble or not? Probably not, I would assume. I'm sure she's not so stuffy that any of this would make one teckla's hindquarters difference to her. -- Matthew S. Klahn Software Architect, CodeTek Studios, Inc. http://www.codetek.com From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Nov 18 13:31:41 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 13:31:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <5151A61A-1A0D-11D8-A22C-000393D1260C@mac.com> References: <20031118201759.GA12930@ofb.net> <5151A61A-1A0D-11D8-A22C-000393D1260C@mac.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Matthew Klahn wrote: > On Nov 18, 2003, at 14:25 , Philip Hart wrote: > > > Dumb question, but is Sethra technically a noble? I can certainly > > imagine she's been knighted or whatever, but maybe titles, uhh, expire > > upon death. Or she might not have bothered. I believe I recall Vlad > > saying she likes to be announced as just SL - maybe he doesn't realize > > there's nothing more to be announced... > > You know, this is a very interesting question. According to _Five > Hundred Years After_ ([...]), Sethra's parentage is unknown. And irrelevant - she's older than the Empire, so not noble-born. > Now, nobility is just hereditary, or you have to earn a title (and > accept it, which I'm not sure whether Sethra would or would not do), > which I'm sure that Sethra has earned many, many times over. However, > she does hold Dzur mountain and surrounding environs, so she must be > some form of noble or other. As Morollan found out, she doesn't honor the Imperial tax-structure... > [...] She's been called a Dragonlord by none less than Emperor > Tortaalik I [...] That's interesting evidence. Otoh Tortaalik is a Phoenix and a bozo. From Randi128 at aol.com Tue Nov 18 13:49:51 2003 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:49:51 EST Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: <1db.14ae5add.2cebedff@aol.com> In a message dated 11/18/2003 4:42:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU writes: > And irrelevant - she's older than the Empire, so not noble-born. Sethra hasn't any need of noble titles, but, IMHO, as Mistress of Dzur Mountain, is qualified to be called Noble. I'm not convinced she really cares either. John D. Barbato, OD From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Nov 18 13:54:06 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:54:06 -0500 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: <47188381.52494DD7.00048EA6@aol.com> Philip Hart writes: > Dumb question, but is Sethra technically a noble? ? She's referred to as "Baroness of Dzur Mountain" at least once, though that may have been post-LoCB. If someone has FHYA handy, they could check how she's introduced when she appears in the Palace. --KG From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Nov 18 13:57:28 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 13:57:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <47188381.52494DD7.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <47188381.52494DD7.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > Philip Hart writes: > > > Dumb question, but is Sethra technically a noble? ? > > She's referred to as "Baroness of Dzur Mountain" at least > once, though that may have been post-LoCB. If someone has > FHYA handy, they could check how she's introduced when she > appears in the Palace. I had tried putting that in the the Dragaera search engine (following an off-list suggestion) but didn't find it. From Talpianna at aol.com Tue Nov 18 14:32:15 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:32:15 EST Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: <1dd.14b51ed1.2cebf7ef@aol.com> In a message dated 11/18/2003 1:26:15 PM US Mountain Standard Time, philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU writes: Dumb question, but is Sethra technically a noble? I can certainly imagine she's been knighted or whatever, but maybe titles, uhh, expire upon death. Or she might not have bothered. I believe I recall Vlad saying she likes to be announced as just SL - maybe he doesn't realize there's nothing more to be announced... Perhaps in the spirit of one of the great rival courtesans of fin de siecle Paris. One of them once entered Maxim's one evening wearing all the jewelry she'd been given--lit up the room with the blaze. Next day her rival entered Maxim's wearing no jewelry at all--followed by her maid wearing all her mistress's jewelry. I can see Sethra doing that. If nothing else, she's captain of the Lavodes (whatever they are/were, exactly). tal From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Nov 18 14:42:31 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:42:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <1dd.14b51ed1.2cebf7ef@aol.com> References: <1dd.14b51ed1.2cebf7ef@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 Talpianna at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/18/2003 1:26:15 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU writes: > Dumb question, but is Sethra technically a noble? I can certainly imagine > she's been knighted or whatever, but maybe titles, uhh, expire upon death. > Or she might not have bothered. I believe I recall Vlad saying she likes > to be announced as just SL - maybe he doesn't realize there's nothing > more to be announced... > Perhaps in the spirit of one of the great rival courtesans of fin de siecle > Paris. One of them once entered Maxim's one evening wearing all the jewelry > she'd been given--lit up the room with the blaze. Next day her rival entered > Maxim's wearing no jewelry at all--followed by her maid wearing all her > mistress's jewelry. Were maids allowed openly to have mistresses? Even in gay Paree that might have been a bit much. Seriously, I don't understand how this is effective one-up-womanship. p.s. your Re software makes it hard to keep attribution clear. From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Nov 18 14:49:28 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:49:28 -0600 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: References: <1dd.14b51ed1.2cebf7ef@aol.com> Message-ID: <20031118224928.GB15141@infodancer.org> On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 02:42:31PM -0800, Philip Hart wrote: > On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 Talpianna at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 11/18/2003 1:26:15 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > > philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU writes: > > Dumb question, but is Sethra technically a noble? I can certainly imagine > > she's been knighted or whatever, but maybe titles, uhh, expire upon death. > > Or she might not have bothered. I believe I recall Vlad saying she likes > > to be announced as just SL - maybe he doesn't realize there's nothing > > more to be announced... > > Perhaps in the spirit of one of the great rival courtesans of fin de siecle > > Paris. One of them once entered Maxim's one evening wearing all the jewelry > > she'd been given--lit up the room with the blaze. Next day her rival entered > > Maxim's wearing no jewelry at all--followed by her maid wearing all her > > mistress's jewelry. > Were maids allowed openly to have mistresses? The maid's mistress, ie, the rival courtesan herself. > Even in gay Paree that might have been a bit much. > Seriously, I don't understand how this is effective one-up-womanship. The rival courtesan demonstrated, in a single stroke: 1) That she was beautiful without need for jewelry 2) That she didn't care about the financial rewards of her position 3) Indirectly accusing her rival of caring about those rewards 4) That her MAID, whose taste may be questionable, and whose status is certainly lower, could afford jewelry of a quality and quantity (presumably) to match her rival's best. 5) And if 4 is true, the rival courtesan herself must be able to match and exceed the original display... 6) ... but has the taste not to do so, as it would be a petty contest.... 7) ... with one of her inferiors. Thus, indeed, a masterstroke. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From davids at kithrup.com Tue Nov 18 15:03:20 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 15:03:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > >> Philip Hart writes: >> >> > Dumb question, but is Sethra technically a noble? ? >> >> She's referred to as "Baroness of Dzur Mountain" at least >> once, though that may have been post-LoCB. If someone has >> FHYA handy, they could check how she's introduced when she >> appears in the Palace. > > >I had tried putting that in the the Dragaera search engine (following >an off-list suggestion) but didn't find it. > I have found the search engine to be a bit, well, wonky. Sometimes it shows a hit, but not the contents. The start page is an "or"ed search, but searches from the result are "and" searches. Etc. Searching for "Baroness", and then wading through all of the hits that had "500ya" in the result filename found the following, in chapter 08: led her past them into the room where his Majesty waited. Dimma then called out, "The Baroness of Dzur Mountain and Environs" as if there was nothing in the least unusual in this name. That's Sethra's big entrance in FHYA, or I'm a norska. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Nov 18 15:07:20 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 15:07:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > David S. points out to me: > led her past them into the room where his Majesty waited. Dimma > then called out, "The Baroness of Dzur Mountain and Environs" > as if there was nothing in the least unusual in this name. > > That's Sethra's big entrance in FHYA, or I'm a norska. Ok, thanks. I'm going to suppose that Dimma needed something to call her and just made that up - or rather that the title is just conventional and used for this particular purpose only (Sethra can't enter unless announced, no one without a title can be announced, so...) From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Nov 18 15:11:12 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 15:11:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <20031118224928.GB15141@infodancer.org> References: <1dd.14b51ed1.2cebf7ef@aol.com> <20031118224928.GB15141@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 02:42:31PM -0800, Philip Hart wrote: > > On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 Talpianna at aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 11/18/2003 1:26:15 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > > > philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU writes: > > > Or she might not have bothered. I believe I recall Vlad saying she likes > > > to be announced as just SL - maybe he doesn't realize there's nothing > > > more to be announced... > > > Perhaps in the spirit of one of the great rival courtesans of fin de siecle > > > Paris. One of them once entered Maxim's one evening wearing all the jewelry > > > she'd been given--lit up the room with the blaze. Next day her rival entered > > > Maxim's wearing no jewelry at all--followed by her maid wearing all her > > > mistress's jewelry. > > Were maids allowed openly to have mistresses? > > The maid's mistress, ie, the rival courtesan herself. Dude, you're standing on my joke. And wiping your muddy boots off on it. > > Even in gay Paree that might have been a bit much. > > Seriously, I don't understand how this is effective one-up-womanship. > > The rival courtesan demonstrated, in a single stroke: > > 1) That she was beautiful without need for jewelry > 2) That she didn't care about the financial rewards of her position > 3) Indirectly accusing her rival of caring about those rewards > 4) That her MAID, whose taste may be questionable, and whose > status is certainly lower, could afford jewelry of a quality > and quantity (presumably) to match her rival's best. > 5) And if 4 is true, the rival courtesan herself must be able to > match and exceed the original display... > 6) ... but has the taste not to do so, as it would be a petty > contest.... > 7) ... with one of her inferiors. Half of these seem to contradict the others - but ok. Anyway I really just wanted to coin or use the word "one-up-womanship." From matthew at infodancer.org Tue Nov 18 15:26:06 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:26:06 -0600 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: References: <1dd.14b51ed1.2cebf7ef@aol.com> <20031118224928.GB15141@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20031118232606.GC15141@infodancer.org> On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 03:11:12PM -0800, Philip Hart wrote: > On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 02:42:31PM -0800, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 Talpianna at aol.com wrote: > > > > In a message dated 11/18/2003 1:26:15 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > > > > philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU writes: > > > > Or she might not have bothered. I believe I recall Vlad saying she likes > > > > to be announced as just SL - maybe he doesn't realize there's nothing > > > > more to be announced... > > > > Perhaps in the spirit of one of the great rival courtesans of fin de siecle > > > > Paris. One of them once entered Maxim's one evening wearing all the jewelry > > > > she'd been given--lit up the room with the blaze. Next day her rival entered > > > > Maxim's wearing no jewelry at all--followed by her maid wearing all her > > > > mistress's jewelry. > > > Were maids allowed openly to have mistresses? > > The maid's mistress, ie, the rival courtesan herself. > Dude, you're standing on my joke. And wiping your muddy boots off on it. Let this be a lesson to you, sir: That's what you get for saying "Seriously" in a joke. > > > Even in gay Paree that might have been a bit much. > > > Seriously, I don't understand how this is effective one-up-womanship. > > > > The rival courtesan demonstrated, in a single stroke: > > > > 1) That she was beautiful without need for jewelry > > 2) That she didn't care about the financial rewards of her position > > 3) Indirectly accusing her rival of caring about those rewards > > 4) That her MAID, whose taste may be questionable, and whose > > status is certainly lower, could afford jewelry of a quality > > and quantity (presumably) to match her rival's best. > > 5) And if 4 is true, the rival courtesan herself must be able to > > match and exceed the original display... > > 6) ... but has the taste not to do so, as it would be a petty > > contest.... > > 7) ... with one of her inferiors. > Half of these seem to contradict the others - but ok. Anyway I > really just wanted to coin or use the word "one-up-womanship." Only when you analyze it. But the game of upwomanship is not won on analysis, but on impressions. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From casca913 at gbronline.com Tue Nov 18 15:28:15 2003 From: casca913 at gbronline.com (Charlie Smith) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:28:15 -0600 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... References: <47188381.52494DD7.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <002e01c3ae2b$a59862c0$71570945@pentium4> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 3:54 PM Subject: Re: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... > Philip Hart writes: > > > Dumb question, but is Sethra technically a noble? > > She's referred to as "Baroness of Dzur Mountain" at least > once, though that may have been post-LoCB. If someone has > FHYA handy, they could check how she's introduced when she > appears in the Palace. > > > --KG > > > FHYA, Chapter 8, Page 106 "Sethra, on her part, gave Captain and guardsman the most cursory of glances as Dimma led her past them into the room where His Majesty waited. Dimma, performing in this room the function relegated to Brudik when His Majesty was in the Portrait Room, then called out, "The Baroness of Dzur Mountain and Environs." We should add that she preformed this office as if there were nothing in the least unusual in announcing the Dark Lady of Dzur Mountain before the Emperor." --- -- Charlie Smith -- "Well?" said Adron, the Duke of Eastmanswatch. "I have not rebelled yet, and his Majesty may yet apologize." -- -- Year 532 of the Reign of Tortaalik the First, Phoenix Reign From davids at kithrup.com Tue Nov 18 15:30:44 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 15:30:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >> David S. points out to me: >> led her past them into the room where his Majesty waited. Dimma >> then called out, "The Baroness of Dzur Mountain and Environs" >> as if there was nothing in the least unusual in this name. >> >> That's Sethra's big entrance in FHYA, or I'm a norska. > > >Ok, thanks. I'm going to suppose that Dimma needed something to call >her and just made that up - or rather that the title is just >conventional and used for this particular purpose only (Sethra can't >enter unless announced, no one without a title can be announced, >so...) > Err, why do have this wish for Sethra to be a commoner? Not that there's anything wrong with being a commoner, but Sethra is, after all, rather uncommon. I am not sure what the distinction might be between having a noble title, and being considered a noble, and actually being a noble. Besides, as mentioned, she is known to have served as Warlord. Do you really think that someone who was not a noble would be given this position of high responsibility, and *not* also be made (at least an honorary) noble? From Talpianna at aol.com Tue Nov 18 15:41:02 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 18:41:02 EST Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: <1e1.13b7fb50.2cec080e@aol.com> In a message dated 11/18/2003 3:43:15 PM US Mountain Standard Time, philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU writes: Were maids allowed openly to have mistresses? Even in gay Paree that might have been a bit much. Seriously, I don't understand how this is effective one-up-womanship. p.s. your Re software makes it hard to keep attribution clear. ================================================================= It made the blazing display look over-the-top and tacky. I guess you have to be female to appreciate it. Or possibly French. In MY message box, not only is the quoted message marked off with a line, but my reply is in a different typeface (Comic Sans MS Bold). See if what I've done here works better. tal From Talpianna at aol.com Tue Nov 18 15:42:24 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 18:42:24 EST Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: <17e.2322bce3.2cec0860@aol.com> In a message dated 11/18/2003 3:50:08 PM US Mountain Standard Time, matthew at infodancer.org writes: Thus, indeed, a masterstroke. ============================================================= Or possibly mistress-stroke. tal From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Nov 18 15:44:58 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 18 Nov 2003 17:44:58 -0600 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <47188381.52494DD7.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <47188381.52494DD7.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: Gaertk at aol.com writes: > Philip Hart writes: > > > Dumb question, but is Sethra technically a noble? ? > > She's referred to as "Baroness of Dzur Mountain" at least > once, though that may have been post-LoCB. If someone has > FHYA handy, they could check how she's introduced when she > appears in the Palace. 500ya chapter 8, 43.3% through, she's announced as "The Baroness of Dzur Mountain and environs". Whether that's an official title may be another question. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Nov 18 15:45:41 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 18 Nov 2003 17:45:41 -0600 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: References: <47188381.52494DD7.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: Philip Hart writes: > On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > > > Philip Hart writes: > > > > > Dumb question, but is Sethra technically a noble? ? > > > > She's referred to as "Baroness of Dzur Mountain" at least > > once, though that may have been post-LoCB. If someone has > > FHYA handy, they could check how she's introduced when she > > appears in the Palace. > > > I had tried putting that in the the Dragaera search engine (following > an off-list suggestion) but didn't find it. That's where I found it. I used the search terms "baroness" and "dzur", and it was in the third chapter (and first 500YA chapter) returned. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Nov 18 15:46:32 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 15:46:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <1e1.13b7fb50.2cec080e@aol.com> References: <1e1.13b7fb50.2cec080e@aol.com> Message-ID: I think the problem I'm having is that your software is htmlizing stuff and I'm reading txt. Take a look for example at http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1:mss:10586:oohhepfnfdfblkpjncel On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 Talpianna at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/18/2003 3:43:15 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU writes: > Were maids allowed openly to have mistresses? Even in gay Paree that > might have been a bit much. > > Seriously, I don't understand how this is effective one-up-womanship. > > > p.s. your Re software makes it hard to keep attribution clear. > ================================================================= > It made the blazing display look over-the-top and tacky. I guess you have to > be female to appreciate it. Or possibly French. > > In MY message box, not only is the quoted message marked off with a line, but > my reply is in a different typeface (Comic Sans MS Bold). > > See if what I've done here works better. > > tal > From Talpianna at aol.com Tue Nov 18 15:50:43 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 18:50:43 EST Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: <1dc.14b44295.2cec0a53@aol.com> In a message dated 11/18/2003 4:39:17 PM US Mountain Standard Time, casca913 at gbronline.com writes: "The Baroness of Dzur Mountain and Environs." ================================================================= This brings up another question. Morrolan first meets Sethra Lavode when he goes to Dzur Mountain to collect feudal dues. But is there any reason to suppose she actually holds Dzur Mountain in feoff to him? I would think she holds directly from the Imperial Throne. As I recall, the person who told him she was one of his tenants was some passing Teckla laborer who wouldn't know the ins and outs of enfeoffment. And I suspect she holds it in fee simple absolute, not owing rents or reliefs, as a reward for past services to the Empire. tal From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Nov 18 15:53:53 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 18 Nov 2003 17:53:53 -0600 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: References: <1e1.13b7fb50.2cec080e@aol.com> Message-ID: Philip Hart writes: > I think the problem I'm having is that your software is htmlizing stuff > and I'm reading txt. Take a look for example at > http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1:mss:10586:oohhepfnfdfblkpjncel Any HTML reaching the mailing list processor is stripped. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From Talpianna at aol.com Tue Nov 18 15:56:05 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 18:56:05 EST Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: <49.367a8a37.2cec0b95@aol.com> In a message dated 11/18/2003 4:46:58 PM US Mountain Standard Time, philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU writes: I think the problem I'm having is that your software is htmlizing stuff and I'm reading txt. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Could be, but I don't know what to do about it. Or even if I want to, if putting in a line will work. Whatever I'm doing seems to work OK with my other lists. tal From agrajag at dragaera.net Tue Nov 18 16:04:56 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 18 Nov 2003 19:04:56 -0500 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <1e1.13b7fb50.2cec080e@aol.com> References: <1e1.13b7fb50.2cec080e@aol.com> Message-ID: <1069200295.2022.8.camel@loiosh> On Tue, 2003-11-18 at 18:41, Talpianna at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/18/2003 3:43:15 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU writes: > Were maids allowed openly to have mistresses? Even in gay Paree that > might have been a bit much. > > Seriously, I don't understand how this is effective one-up-womanship. > > > p.s. your Re software makes it hard to keep attribution clear. > ================================================================= > It made the blazing display look over-the-top and tacky. I guess you have to > be female to appreciate it. Or possibly French. > > In MY message box, not only is the quoted message marked off with a line, but > my reply is in a different typeface (Comic Sans MS Bold). > > See if what I've done here works better. Its a little better, but still confusing. As someone who reads a fair amount of email, I'm used to those '>' as they help seperate things out for my at a glance. (plus my mail reader makes the text marked with '>'s a little lighter) With yours, every time I read them I still think the message was from you (with your old and new methods). I only realize my mistakeswhen I start recognizing text from earlier messages. From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Nov 18 16:05:23 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 18 Nov 2003 18:05:23 -0600 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <49.367a8a37.2cec0b95@aol.com> References: <49.367a8a37.2cec0b95@aol.com> Message-ID: Talpianna at aol.com writes: > Could be, but I don't know what to do about it. Or even if I want > to, if putting in a line will work. Whatever I'm doing seems to > work OK with my other lists. Use conventional quoting -- prefix the old material with " > ". On your other lists, you're no doubt annoying many people who can't or don't like to read HTML email. There are FAQs on the web for how to post text email and news from AOL. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From Talpianna at aol.com Tue Nov 18 16:08:57 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:08:57 EST Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: <1eb.137fd0dd.2cec0e99@aol.com> In a message dated 11/18/2003 5:06:02 PM US Mountain Standard Time, dd-b at dd-b.net writes: >Use conventional quoting -- prefix the old material with " > ". ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I just cut and paste. I don't know how to reset it, and have had no other complaints. tal From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Nov 18 16:15:41 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 18:15:41 -0600 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: Talpianna@aol.com's message <1eb.137fd0dd.2cec0e99@aol.com> of 18 November 2003 References: <1eb.137fd0dd.2cec0e99@aol.com> Message-ID: <16314.46637.48684.665748@gw.dd-b.net> Talpianna at aol.com writes on 18 November 2003 at 19:08:57 EST > In a message dated 11/18/2003 5:06:02 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > dd-b at dd-b.net writes: > >Use conventional quoting -- prefix the old material with " > ". > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > I just cut and paste. I don't know how to reset it, and have had no other > complaints. Most people are more polite than me. :-) But it really does contribute to making your messages harder to read, and threads you participate in harder to read (because later quoting of your messages looks *very* confused). -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From agrajag at dragaera.net Tue Nov 18 16:22:00 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 18 Nov 2003 19:22:00 -0500 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <1eb.137fd0dd.2cec0e99@aol.com> References: <1eb.137fd0dd.2cec0e99@aol.com> Message-ID: <1069201320.2022.10.camel@loiosh> On Tue, 2003-11-18 at 19:08, Talpianna at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/18/2003 5:06:02 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > dd-b at dd-b.net writes: > >Use conventional quoting -- prefix the old material with " > ". > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > I just cut and paste. I don't know how to reset it, and have had no other > complaints. It's actually been bothering me for a while, but I've just been biting my tongue. I was actually getting to the point where I was about to say something, then moments before I did, I found that someone had beaten me to it :) From mklahn at mac.com Tue Nov 18 16:22:03 2003 From: mklahn at mac.com (Matthew Klahn) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 18:22:03 -0600 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <16314.46637.48684.665748@gw.dd-b.net> References: <1eb.137fd0dd.2cec0e99@aol.com> <16314.46637.48684.665748@gw.dd-b.net> Message-ID: <664D8776-1A26-11D8-A22C-000393D1260C@mac.com> On Nov 18, 2003, at 18:15 , David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > Talpianna at aol.com writes on 18 November 2003 at > 19:08:57 EST >> In a message dated 11/18/2003 5:06:02 PM US Mountain Standard Time, >> dd-b at dd-b.net writes: >>> Use conventional quoting -- prefix the old material with " > ". >> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> I just cut and paste. I don't know how to reset it, and have had no >> other >> complaints. > > Most people are more polite than me. :-) > > But it really does contribute to making your messages harder to read, > and threads you participate in harder to read (because later quoting > of your messages looks *very* confused). > -- > David Dyer-Bennet, , > RKBA: > Photos: Snapshots: > > Dragaera/Steven Brust: Not to step in here, where I don't belong, but I'm going to step in here where I don't belong in order to reduce the overall number of mails that I'm going to have to see about this particular issue. :) People who use AOL, or Hotmail/Yahoo, etc. may have problems with this because they are kinda stuck with HTML mails by default and are not computer saavy enough to change them. Unless you wish to screen out those people or be willing to educate them as to how to change settings to make it easier to read, I guess there's no real point in complaining to those people (which might explain the lack of complaints, tal, but it may be masking a lot of aggravation). Therefore, I will nicely put it out there that either: 1) David looks up how to do this and explains it to Tal (off-line is preferred), or 2) Tal looks this up herself and changes it. It _does_ make it harder to read mails, and is not isolated to Tal: I have this same problem with about 5 other mailers on this list who use Yahoo, etc. -- Matthew S. Klahn Software Architect, CodeTek Studios, Inc. http://www.codetek.com From nthuleen at students.wisc.edu Tue Nov 18 16:33:10 2003 From: nthuleen at students.wisc.edu (Nancy Thuleen) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 18:33:10 -0600 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <1069201320.2022.10.camel@loiosh> References: <1eb.137fd0dd.2cec0e99@aol.com> <1069201320.2022.10.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: At 19:22 -0500 18.11.2003, Jag wrote: > On Tue, 2003-11-18 at 19:08, Talpianna at aol.com wrote: > > I just cut and paste. I don't know how to reset it, and have had no other > > complaints. > > It's actually been bothering me for a while, but I've just been biting > my tongue. I was actually getting to the point where I was about to say > something, then moments before I did, I found that someone had beaten me > to it :) Me too. I'm only a silent participant, but I realized after several messages today that I had been skipping over most of the messages from Tal, because I thought s/he was simply reposting old material by mistake with nothing new added (or that I was seeing more of the duplicate messages which seem to plague this list from time to time). I hadn't even realized s/he was adding original material after the 'quoted' stuff, because I didn't see any quotes. It's a small thing, but the addition of proper quote marks really would make things easier for those of us who are so used to net standards. - Nancy. From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Nov 18 17:00:41 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:00:41 -0500 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: <17F8D3D0.443CECB1.00048EA6@aol.com> Talpianna at aol.com writes: > dd-b at dd-b.net writes: >> Use conventional quoting -- prefix the old material with >> " > ". > > I just cut and paste. ?I don't know how to reset it, and > have had no other complaints. I use Aol (and I don't think anyone is having any problems with my posts)... For proper quoting, you need to check the box labeled "Include original text in reply." before hitting the reply button (in the read mail window). I also edit the quoted text a bit, but I don't think that makes much difference. And there should be an option somewhere under mail preferences to disable HTML in outgoing mail. --KG From davids at kithrup.com Tue Nov 18 17:02:05 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:02:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <664D8776-1A26-11D8-A22C-000393D1260C@mac.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Matthew Klahn wrote: >it out there that either: 1) David looks up how to do this and >explains it to Tal (off-line is preferred), Well, I'm not the David you mean, but since I can Google "aol mail quoting", I can in fact post the answer, from the first hit: 10. APPENDIX A - Using the AOL Mail Program AOL offers two ways of quoting text in a "reply", which are mentioned below. The user is forced to use one of these two options, and each one adds angle brackets to the quoted text. There is no option to "turn off" the quotes in a reply. AOL style quoting: <> Internet style quoting: > This is an > example of internet > style quoting. To select between these two options, go to "my AOL", select "Preferences", click on the "mail" icon, and choose the style you want at the bottom of the list. And I would strongly prefer "Internet style" as well. What can I say, us old fogeys have just gotten used to having things work a certain way. Arr, you young whippersnappers and your HTML mail, mumble, growl. From pgranzeau at cox.net Tue Nov 18 17:07:20 2003 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:07:20 -0500 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: References: <47188381.52494DD7.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031118200410.029f3960@pop.east.cox.net> At 18:44 11/18/2003, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: >Gaertk at aol.com writes: > > > Philip Hart writes: > > > > > Dumb question, but is Sethra technically a noble? > > > > She's referred to as "Baroness of Dzur Mountain" at least > > once, though that may have been post-LoCB. If someone has > > FHYA handy, they could check how she's introduced when she > > appears in the Palace. > >500ya chapter 8, 43.3% through, she's announced as "The Baroness of >Dzur Mountain and environs". Whether that's an official title may be >another question. The use of "Baroness" is probably one of those thing that major-domos probably would only use if they were positive it was correct. Which makes me wonder about Morrolan's rank (which I can't remember), as he asked for tribute from Sethra in LoCB. Is he a Count of some kind? A Marquis? A Duke? -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Nov 18 17:10:53 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:10:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > >Ok, thanks. I'm going to suppose that Dimma needed something to call > >her and just made that up - or rather that the title is just > >conventional and used for this particular purpose only (Sethra can't > >enter unless announced, no one without a title can be announced, > >so...) > > > > Err, why do have this wish for Sethra to be a commoner? Not that > there's anything wrong with being a commoner, but Sethra is, after > all, rather uncommon. Yeah, that's my point, she's sui generis, outside the system, ... No noble title makes sense. Nobility derives from the emperor (or the empire, I guess Aerich would say). What could the emperor give Sethra? (Well, she has a link to the Orb and is hence a citizen so maybe I'm just being ornery). > I am not sure what the distinction might be between having a noble > title, and being considered a noble, and actually being a noble. Yo, Aerich, field this one, would you? > Besides, as mentioned, she is known to have served as Warlord. Do you > really think that someone who was not a noble would be given this > position of high responsibility, and *not* also be made (at least an > honorary) noble? Sure, if someone's Sethra. Plus, that was when they thought she was alive, right? I'm thinking Sethra doesn't consider herself as a noble (or maybe even as noble.) Maybe Paarfi thinks it's in his best interest to assign her a title, but it doesn't fit my sense of reality. From Talpianna at aol.com Tue Nov 18 17:19:01 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:19:01 EST Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: <1d6.14943f2d.2cec1f05@aol.com> In a message dated 11/18/2003 5:47:01 PM US Mountain Standard Time, nthuleen at students.wisc.edu writes: >>>It's a small thing, but the addition of proper quote marks really would make things easier for those of us who are so used to net standards.<<<<< The thing is, when I cut and paste, it does come out "Quoted", with a vertical line indicating copied material (as well as the different text I mentioned, tal From yaga at berkano.pair.com Tue Nov 18 17:29:25 2003 From: yaga at berkano.pair.com (yaga at berkano.pair.com) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:29:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: Sethra, light of Dzur Mountain, fire of the Cycle, my sorceress, my Lavode, se-the-ra (Was Piro/K'tan) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031119012925.79114.qmail@berkano.pair.com> > > On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > > I am not sure what the distinction might be between having a noble > > title, and being considered a noble, and actually being a noble. > > Yo, Aerich, field this one, would you? While I'm not Aerich, I'll point out that Keiron, Sethra, and anyone else who was around *before* the Empire began was, for lack of a better word, a commoner. Which only makes sense; if nobles must be citizens of the Empire, then they can't have been nobles before the Empire. On this vein, it would be assumed that Sethra, like Kieron, was born common and became noble with the formation of the Empire. > I'm thinking Sethra doesn't consider herself as a noble (or maybe even as > noble.) Maybe Paarfi thinks it's in his best interest to assign her a > title, but it doesn't fit my sense of reality. My understanding is that there are noble houses (16 of 'em) and non-noble houses (Tekla, plus the others that faded back before the empire). If Vlad *becomes* noble by joining the House of Jhereg, then if Sethra is of the House of Dragon (or Dzur...I know there's still some contention on this issue) then she is noble by default, because she belongs to a noble house. Similarly, if one is cast out of their house or is houseless, such as the offspring of mixed-houses, then one is not noble (that tossed in for the Sethra-is-a-vishivit faction) but comes from a noble family and may appear noble, but is not. Which does not particularly solve the present dilemma, but at least if we find/agree conclusively that Sethra is of one House or another, then we'll know that she is Noble. On that point, I would suggest looking at Morrolan's first visit to Dzur Mountain, and the subject there of taxes. Peter / Yaga > > From davids at kithrup.com Tue Nov 18 17:37:19 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:37:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > >> On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >> >> >Ok, thanks. I'm going to suppose that Dimma needed something to call >> >her and just made that up - or rather that the title is just >> >conventional and used for this particular purpose only (Sethra can't >> >enter unless announced, no one without a title can be announced, >> >so...) >> > >> >> Err, why do have this wish for Sethra to be a commoner? Not that >> there's anything wrong with being a commoner, but Sethra is, after >> all, rather uncommon. >Yeah, that's my point, she's sui generis, outside the system, ... >No noble title makes sense. Nobility derives from the emperor (or >the empire, I guess Aerich would say). What could the emperor give >Sethra? (Well, she has a link to the Orb and is hence a citizen so >maybe I'm just being ornery). I nearly think you are. I would argue that just because "nobility derives from the empire" (which itself is something I would quibble with) does not mean that Sethra is not noble. I agree that, like the Lords of Judgement, or Demons, or whatever, Sethra is indeed outside the system. But that does not mean that the system will not try to define how it relates to her, and how she relates to it. Consider: She lives on Dzur Mountain, and defends it against all attackers. Therefore, she is at least a land-owner. She wields considerable military power in her own right, as well as doing so on behalf of the Empire. Given that she is a Power, and lives in the Empire, the Empire will, almost certainly at some point, have conferred upon her an honorary title and peerage. The nobility comes from the Empire recognizing Sethra's right to own Dzur Mountain, and her services to the Empire, rather than from Sethra herself. It's not her fault that she's been made a Baroness. > >I'm thinking Sethra doesn't consider herself as a noble (or maybe >even as noble.) > Well, I can't disagree with that. A noble is, after all, a *Peer* of the Realm. I think Sethra thinks of herself rather more highly than *that*. Or at least as being something other. From pulmon at comcast.net Tue Nov 18 17:38:45 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:38:45 -0500 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1D80C9FC-1A31-11D8-81FF-0003938F1608@comcast.net> Sethra has turned down godhead; I suspect that nobility is not an issue that concerns her. It does, however, concern those around her. Either she holds a patent of nobility granted by Kieron himself, or, on the other hand, who exactly the hell would go up to her and ask, "undead sorceress, great weapon wielder, defender from the Jenoine for 200,000 years, holder of Dzur mountain, are you a noble or are you my inferior...?" On Nov 18, 2003, at 8:10 PM, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > >> On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >> >>> Ok, thanks. I'm going to suppose that Dimma needed something to call >>> her and just made that up - or rather that the title is just >>> conventional and used for this particular purpose only (Sethra can't >>> enter unless announced, no one without a title can be announced, >>> so...) >>> >> >> Err, why do have this wish for Sethra to be a commoner? Not that >> there's anything wrong with being a commoner, but Sethra is, after >> all, rather uncommon. > > Yeah, that's my point, she's sui generis, outside the system, ... > No noble title makes sense. Nobility derives from the emperor > (or the empire, I guess Aerich would say). What could the emperor > give Sethra? (Well, she has a link to the Orb and is hence a citizen > so maybe I'm just being ornery). > > >> I am not sure what the distinction might be between having a noble >> title, and being considered a noble, and actually being a noble. > > Yo, Aerich, field this one, would you? > > >> Besides, as mentioned, she is known to have served as Warlord. Do you >> really think that someone who was not a noble would be given this >> position of high responsibility, and *not* also be made (at least an >> honorary) noble? > > Sure, if someone's Sethra. > > Plus, that was when they thought she was alive, right? > > > I'm thinking Sethra doesn't consider herself as a noble (or maybe even > as > noble.) Maybe Paarfi thinks it's in his best interest to assign her a > title, but it doesn't fit my sense of reality. > From davids at kithrup.com Tue Nov 18 17:44:02 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:44:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sethra, light of Dzur Mountain, fire of the Cycle, my sorceress, my Lavode, se-the-ra (Was Piro/K'tan) In-Reply-To: <20031119012925.79114.qmail@berkano.pair.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 yaga at berkano.pair.com wrote: >(that tossed in for the Sethra-is-a-vishivit faction) Sethra is a *what*? $ echo vishivit |rot13 ivfuvivg Well, that was useless. I nearly think someone is being deliberately obscure. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Nov 18 17:47:22 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:47:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <1D80C9FC-1A31-11D8-81FF-0003938F1608@comcast.net> References: <1D80C9FC-1A31-11D8-81FF-0003938F1608@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > Sethra has turned down godhead; I suspect that nobility is not an issue > that concerns her. It does, however, concern those around her. Either > she holds a patent of nobility granted by Kieron himself, or, on the > other hand, who exactly the hell would go up to her and ask, "undead > sorceress, great weapon wielder, defender from the Jenoine for 200,000 > years, holder of Dzur mountain, are you a noble or are you my > inferior...?" You want to duel with her, you want to know if she's noble. She's referred to as "Lady" by Aliera in _FHYA_, right? I guess A doesn't much care about titles either, being the daughter of a goddess, and being A. For the record, I think Sethra sees herself as a farm girl who discovered a talent for magic (and everything else?) and made good. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Nov 18 17:51:21 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 17:51:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: References: <1D80C9FC-1A31-11D8-81FF-0003938F1608@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > She's referred to as "Lady" by Aliera in _FHYA_, right? I guess A doesn't > much care about titles either, being the daughter of a goddess, and being > A. Hmm, maybe SKZB screwed up the translation and A was saying "lady". From ReVibe68 at aol.com Tue Nov 18 18:15:53 2003 From: ReVibe68 at aol.com (ReVibe68 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 21:15:53 EST Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: <171.26946456.2cec2c59@aol.com> In a message dated 11/18/03 12:27:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, mam at theworld.com writes: > If I recall correctly, that was not Khaavren, but a woman who was in > command earlier in the action. (My books are currently packed away.) > It was Khaavren. Politicians and Diapers have one thing in common. They should be changed regularly and for The Same Reason!!. Truth Is Truth. From ReVibe68 at aol.com Tue Nov 18 18:27:23 2003 From: ReVibe68 at aol.com (ReVibe68 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 21:27:23 EST Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: In a message dated 11/18/03 9:17:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, ReVibe68 at aol.com writes: > It was Khaavren HOwever in the face of such opposition I am eventually going to find my copy of Phoenix and read it verrry carefully from cover to cover.....And then I'll let ya know. -Cya! From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Tue Nov 18 16:34:10 2003 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:34:10 -0800 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: <200311181634.AA48103888@amish2000.com> ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Philip Hart Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:25:05 -0800 (PST) >On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Damien Sullivan wrote: > >> On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 12:26:34PM -0600, Matthew Klahn wrote: >> >> > And, Damien, as for "honorable nobles" not condescending to "stoop to >> > hidden identities", have you *read* Orca? >> >> Of course. But that, dear sir, is an exception. > > >Dumb question, but is Sethra technically a noble? I can certainly imagine >she's been knighted or whatever, but maybe titles, uhh, expire upon death. >Or she might not have bothered. I believe I recall Vlad saying she likes >to be announced as just SL - maybe he doesn't realize there's nothing more >to be announced... I imagine that she likes to be announced as "merely" Sethra Lavode because, frankly, after THAT name, anything else is superfluous and anticlimactic. She could add "Arbiter of the Ninety Universes and Beater-Up of Nyarlathotep" and it still wouldn't pack as much punch as the stark "Sethra Lavode" does. Consider that "James Bond, spy and lady-killer and gambler" doesn't sum up nearly as much spine-tingling as "Bond. _James_ Bond." does. ? MJ From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Tue Nov 18 16:34:12 2003 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:34:12 -0800 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: <200311181634.AA54395404@amish2000.com> ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Philip Hart Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:25:05 -0800 (PST) >On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Damien Sullivan wrote: > >> On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 12:26:34PM -0600, Matthew Klahn wrote: >> >> > And, Damien, as for "honorable nobles" not condescending to "stoop to >> > hidden identities", have you *read* Orca? >> >> Of course. But that, dear sir, is an exception. > > >Dumb question, but is Sethra technically a noble? I can certainly imagine >she's been knighted or whatever, but maybe titles, uhh, expire upon death. >Or she might not have bothered. I believe I recall Vlad saying she likes >to be announced as just SL - maybe he doesn't realize there's nothing more >to be announced... I imagine that she likes to be announced as "merely" Sethra Lavode because, frankly, after THAT name, anything else is superfluous and anticlimactic. She could add "Arbiter of the Ninety Universes and Beater-Up of Nyarlathotep" and it still wouldn't pack as much punch as the stark "Sethra Lavode" does. Consider that "James Bond, spy and lady-killer and gambler" doesn't sum up nearly as much spine-tingling as "Bond. _James_ Bond." does. ? MJ From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Tue Nov 18 16:34:14 2003 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:34:14 -0800 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: <200311181634.AA41091572@amish2000.com> ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Philip Hart Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:25:05 -0800 (PST) >On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Damien Sullivan wrote: > >> On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 12:26:34PM -0600, Matthew Klahn wrote: >> >> > And, Damien, as for "honorable nobles" not condescending to "stoop to >> > hidden identities", have you *read* Orca? >> >> Of course. But that, dear sir, is an exception. > > >Dumb question, but is Sethra technically a noble? I can certainly imagine >she's been knighted or whatever, but maybe titles, uhh, expire upon death. >Or she might not have bothered. I believe I recall Vlad saying she likes >to be announced as just SL - maybe he doesn't realize there's nothing more >to be announced... I imagine that she likes to be announced as "merely" Sethra Lavode because, frankly, after THAT name, anything else is superfluous and anticlimactic. She could add "Arbiter of the Ninety Universes and Beater-Up of Nyarlathotep" and it still wouldn't pack as much punch as the stark "Sethra Lavode" does. Consider that "James Bond, spy and lady-killer and gambler" doesn't sum up nearly as much spine-tingling as "Bond. _James_ Bond." does. ? MJ From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Tue Nov 18 16:34:24 2003 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:34:24 -0800 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: <200311181634.AA1404240036@amish2000.com> ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Philip Hart Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:25:05 -0800 (PST) >On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Damien Sullivan wrote: > >> On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 12:26:34PM -0600, Matthew Klahn wrote: >> >> > And, Damien, as for "honorable nobles" not condescending to "stoop to >> > hidden identities", have you *read* Orca? >> >> Of course. But that, dear sir, is an exception. > > >Dumb question, but is Sethra technically a noble? I can certainly imagine >she's been knighted or whatever, but maybe titles, uhh, expire upon death. >Or she might not have bothered. I believe I recall Vlad saying she likes >to be announced as just SL - maybe he doesn't realize there's nothing more >to be announced... I imagine that she likes to be announced as "merely" Sethra Lavode because, frankly, after THAT name, anything else is superfluous and anticlimactic. She could add "Arbiter of the Ninety Universes and Beater-Up of Nyarlathotep" and it still wouldn't pack as much punch as the stark "Sethra Lavode" does. Consider that "James Bond, spy and lady-killer and gambler" doesn't sum up nearly as much spine-tingling as "Bond. _James_ Bond." does. ? MJ From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Tue Nov 18 16:34:26 2003 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:34:26 -0800 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: <200311181634.AA1404436644@amish2000.com> ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Philip Hart Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:25:05 -0800 (PST) >On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Damien Sullivan wrote: > >> On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 12:26:34PM -0600, Matthew Klahn wrote: >> >> > And, Damien, as for "honorable nobles" not condescending to "stoop to >> > hidden identities", have you *read* Orca? >> >> Of course. But that, dear sir, is an exception. > > >Dumb question, but is Sethra technically a noble? I can certainly imagine >she's been knighted or whatever, but maybe titles, uhh, expire upon death. >Or she might not have bothered. I believe I recall Vlad saying she likes >to be announced as just SL - maybe he doesn't realize there's nothing more >to be announced... I imagine that she likes to be announced as "merely" Sethra Lavode because, frankly, after THAT name, anything else is superfluous and anticlimactic. She could add "Arbiter of the Ninety Universes and Beater-Up of Nyarlathotep" and it still wouldn't pack as much punch as the stark "Sethra Lavode" does. Consider that "James Bond, spy and lady-killer and gambler" doesn't sum up nearly as much spine-tingling as "Bond. _James_ Bond." does. ? MJ From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Tue Nov 18 16:34:30 2003 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:34:30 -0800 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: <200311181634.AA27853338@amish2000.com> ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Philip Hart Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:25:05 -0800 (PST) >On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Damien Sullivan wrote: > >> On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 12:26:34PM -0600, Matthew Klahn wrote: >> >> > And, Damien, as for "honorable nobles" not condescending to "stoop to >> > hidden identities", have you *read* Orca? >> >> Of course. But that, dear sir, is an exception. > > >Dumb question, but is Sethra technically a noble? I can certainly imagine >she's been knighted or whatever, but maybe titles, uhh, expire upon death. >Or she might not have bothered. I believe I recall Vlad saying she likes >to be announced as just SL - maybe he doesn't realize there's nothing more >to be announced... I imagine that she likes to be announced as "merely" Sethra Lavode because, frankly, after THAT name, anything else is superfluous and anticlimactic. She could add "Arbiter of the Ninety Universes and Beater-Up of Nyarlathotep" and it still wouldn't pack as much punch as the stark "Sethra Lavode" does. Consider that "James Bond, spy and lady-killer and gambler" doesn't sum up nearly as much spine-tingling as "Bond. _James_ Bond." does. ? MJ From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Tue Nov 18 16:34:32 2003 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:34:32 -0800 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: <200311181634.AA2051670288@amish2000.com> ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Philip Hart Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:25:05 -0800 (PST) >On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Damien Sullivan wrote: > >> On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 12:26:34PM -0600, Matthew Klahn wrote: >> >> > And, Damien, as for "honorable nobles" not condescending to "stoop to >> > hidden identities", have you *read* Orca? >> >> Of course. But that, dear sir, is an exception. > > >Dumb question, but is Sethra technically a noble? I can certainly imagine >she's been knighted or whatever, but maybe titles, uhh, expire upon death. >Or she might not have bothered. I believe I recall Vlad saying she likes >to be announced as just SL - maybe he doesn't realize there's nothing more >to be announced... I imagine that she likes to be announced as "merely" Sethra Lavode because, frankly, after THAT name, anything else is superfluous and anticlimactic. She could add "Arbiter of the Ninety Universes and Beater-Up of Nyarlathotep" and it still wouldn't pack as much punch as the stark "Sethra Lavode" does. Consider that "James Bond, spy and lady-killer and gambler" doesn't sum up nearly as much spine-tingling as "Bond. _James_ Bond." does. ? MJ From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Tue Nov 18 16:34:37 2003 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:34:37 -0800 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: <200311181634.AA781451430@amish2000.com> ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Philip Hart Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:25:05 -0800 (PST) >On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Damien Sullivan wrote: > >> On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 12:26:34PM -0600, Matthew Klahn wrote: >> >> > And, Damien, as for "honorable nobles" not condescending to "stoop to >> > hidden identities", have you *read* Orca? >> >> Of course. But that, dear sir, is an exception. > > >Dumb question, but is Sethra technically a noble? I can certainly imagine >she's been knighted or whatever, but maybe titles, uhh, expire upon death. >Or she might not have bothered. I believe I recall Vlad saying she likes >to be announced as just SL - maybe he doesn't realize there's nothing more >to be announced... I imagine that she likes to be announced as "merely" Sethra Lavode because, frankly, after THAT name, anything else is superfluous and anticlimactic. She could add "Arbiter of the Ninety Universes and Beater-Up of Nyarlathotep" and it still wouldn't pack as much punch as the stark "Sethra Lavode" does. Consider that "James Bond, spy and lady-killer and gambler" doesn't sum up nearly as much spine-tingling as "Bond. _James_ Bond." does. ? MJ From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Tue Nov 18 16:34:39 2003 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:34:39 -0800 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: <200311181634.AA1580597568@amish2000.com> ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Philip Hart Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:25:05 -0800 (PST) >On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Damien Sullivan wrote: > >> On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 12:26:34PM -0600, Matthew Klahn wrote: >> >> > And, Damien, as for "honorable nobles" not condescending to "stoop to >> > hidden identities", have you *read* Orca? >> >> Of course. But that, dear sir, is an exception. > > >Dumb question, but is Sethra technically a noble? I can certainly imagine >she's been knighted or whatever, but maybe titles, uhh, expire upon death. >Or she might not have bothered. I believe I recall Vlad saying she likes >to be announced as just SL - maybe he doesn't realize there's nothing more >to be announced... I imagine that she likes to be announced as "merely" Sethra Lavode because, frankly, after THAT name, anything else is superfluous and anticlimactic. She could add "Arbiter of the Ninety Universes and Beater-Up of Nyarlathotep" and it still wouldn't pack as much punch as the stark "Sethra Lavode" does. Consider that "James Bond, spy and lady-killer and gambler" doesn't sum up nearly as much spine-tingling as "Bond. _James_ Bond." does. ? MJ From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Tue Nov 18 16:34:42 2003 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:34:42 -0800 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: <200311181634.AA29557290@amish2000.com> ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Philip Hart Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:25:05 -0800 (PST) >On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Damien Sullivan wrote: > >> On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 12:26:34PM -0600, Matthew Klahn wrote: >> >> > And, Damien, as for "honorable nobles" not condescending to "stoop to >> > hidden identities", have you *read* Orca? >> >> Of course. But that, dear sir, is an exception. > > >Dumb question, but is Sethra technically a noble? I can certainly imagine >she's been knighted or whatever, but maybe titles, uhh, expire upon death. >Or she might not have bothered. I believe I recall Vlad saying she likes >to be announced as just SL - maybe he doesn't realize there's nothing more >to be announced... I imagine that she likes to be announced as "merely" Sethra Lavode because, frankly, after THAT name, anything else is superfluous and anticlimactic. She could add "Arbiter of the Ninety Universes and Beater-Up of Nyarlathotep" and it still wouldn't pack as much punch as the stark "Sethra Lavode" does. Consider that "James Bond, spy and lady-killer and gambler" doesn't sum up nearly as much spine-tingling as "Bond. _James_ Bond." does. ? MJ From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Tue Nov 18 16:34:50 2003 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:34:50 -0800 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: <200311181634.AA49283536@amish2000.com> ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Philip Hart Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:25:05 -0800 (PST) >On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Damien Sullivan wrote: > >> On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 12:26:34PM -0600, Matthew Klahn wrote: >> >> > And, Damien, as for "honorable nobles" not condescending to "stoop to >> > hidden identities", have you *read* Orca? >> >> Of course. But that, dear sir, is an exception. > > >Dumb question, but is Sethra technically a noble? I can certainly imagine >she's been knighted or whatever, but maybe titles, uhh, expire upon death. >Or she might not have bothered. I believe I recall Vlad saying she likes >to be announced as just SL - maybe he doesn't realize there's nothing more >to be announced... I imagine that she likes to be announced as "merely" Sethra Lavode because, frankly, after THAT name, anything else is superfluous and anticlimactic. She could add "Arbiter of the Ninety Universes and Beater-Up of Nyarlathotep" and it still wouldn't pack as much punch as the stark "Sethra Lavode" does. Consider that "James Bond, spy and lady-killer and gambler" doesn't sum up nearly as much spine-tingling as "Bond. _James_ Bond." does. ? MJ From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Tue Nov 18 16:34:47 2003 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:34:47 -0800 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: <200311181634.AA2037383288@amish2000.com> ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Philip Hart Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:25:05 -0800 (PST) >On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Damien Sullivan wrote: > >> On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 12:26:34PM -0600, Matthew Klahn wrote: >> >> > And, Damien, as for "honorable nobles" not condescending to "stoop to >> > hidden identities", have you *read* Orca? >> >> Of course. But that, dear sir, is an exception. > > >Dumb question, but is Sethra technically a noble? I can certainly imagine >she's been knighted or whatever, but maybe titles, uhh, expire upon death. >Or she might not have bothered. I believe I recall Vlad saying she likes >to be announced as just SL - maybe he doesn't realize there's nothing more >to be announced... I imagine that she likes to be announced as "merely" Sethra Lavode because, frankly, after THAT name, anything else is superfluous and anticlimactic. She could add "Arbiter of the Ninety Universes and Beater-Up of Nyarlathotep" and it still wouldn't pack as much punch as the stark "Sethra Lavode" does. Consider that "James Bond, spy and lady-killer and gambler" doesn't sum up nearly as much spine-tingling as "Bond. _James_ Bond." does. ? MJ From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Tue Nov 18 16:34:28 2003 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 16:34:28 -0800 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: <200311181634.AA1404567716@amish2000.com> ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Philip Hart Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:25:05 -0800 (PST) >On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Damien Sullivan wrote: > >> On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 12:26:34PM -0600, Matthew Klahn wrote: >> >> > And, Damien, as for "honorable nobles" not condescending to "stoop to >> > hidden identities", have you *read* Orca? >> >> Of course. But that, dear sir, is an exception. > > >Dumb question, but is Sethra technically a noble? I can certainly imagine >she's been knighted or whatever, but maybe titles, uhh, expire upon death. >Or she might not have bothered. I believe I recall Vlad saying she likes >to be announced as just SL - maybe he doesn't realize there's nothing more >to be announced... I imagine that she likes to be announced as "merely" Sethra Lavode because, frankly, after THAT name, anything else is superfluous and anticlimactic. She could add "Arbiter of the Ninety Universes and Beater-Up of Nyarlathotep" and it still wouldn't pack as much punch as the stark "Sethra Lavode" does. Consider that "James Bond, spy and lady-killer and gambler" doesn't sum up nearly as much spine-tingling as "Bond. _James_ Bond." does. ? MJ From davids at kithrup.com Tue Nov 18 18:57:16 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 18:57:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > >She's referred to as "Lady" by Aliera in _FHYA_, right? I guess A >doesn't much care about titles either, being the daughter of a >goddess, and being A. And that's another example of someone from outside the system being recognized by the system. In order for Aliera to be legitimate, Verra must have been recognized by the Council of House Dragon as being an honorary Dragonlord, and properly married to Adron e'Kieron. Now, Verra doesn't *care* about such recognition, except in how it impacts Aliera, but House Dragon had to come to some sort of one-off definition in order for their system to not break down. > >For the record, I think Sethra sees herself as a farm girl who >discovered a talent for magic (and everything else?) and made good. > Snort. I imagine that she got over any such false modesty after the Third or Fourth Cycle, at the very latest. From mam at theworld.com Tue Nov 18 19:05:06 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:05:06 -0500 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <200311181634.AA1404436644@amish2000.com> Message-ID: Methinks either your mailer or the list is hiccuping. My inbox index says, in part: D 209 Nov 18 M J (2790) Re: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... D 210 Nov 18 M J (2790) Re: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... D 211 Nov 18 M J (2790) Re: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... D 212 Nov 18 M J (2792) Re: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... D 213 Nov 18 M J (2790) Re: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... D 214 Nov 18 M J (2791) Re: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... D 215 Nov 18 Dan Goodman (2362) Re: [ADS-L] rocks and stones D 216 Nov 18 M J (2792) Re: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... D 217 Nov 18 M J (2792) Re: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... D 218 Nov 18 M J (2794) Re: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... D 219 Nov 18 M J (2790) Re: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... D 220 Nov 18 M J (2790) Re: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... D 221 Nov 18 M J (2792) Re: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... ->D 222 Nov 18 M J (2792) Re: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... You are in a maze of little twisty passages, all alike. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From yaga at berkano.pair.com Tue Nov 18 19:08:04 2003 From: yaga at berkano.pair.com (yaga at berkano.pair.com) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:08:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Sethra, light of Dzur Mountain, fire of the Cycle, my sorceress, my Lavode, se-the-ra (Was Piro/K'tan) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031119030804.4066.qmail@berkano.pair.com> > On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 yaga at berkano.pair.com wrote: > >(that tossed in for the Sethra-is-a-vishivit faction) > Sethra is a *what*? Sorry. Didn't realize the term was so obscure. "Vishivit" is used for same-species mixed-breeding in multi-species fantasy worlds. ie, half-human half-elf is a "half-elf," while half-sindar, half-avari would be a "vishivit." - Peter / Yaga > From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Nov 18 19:27:44 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:27:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > And that's another example of someone from outside the system being > recognized by the system. In order for Aliera to be legitimate, Verra > must have been recognized by the Council of House Dragon as being an > honorary Dragonlord, and properly married to Adron e'Kieron. > > Now, Verra doesn't *care* about such recognition, except in how it > impacts Aliera, but House Dragon had to come to some sort of one-off > definition in order for their system to not break down. I don't quite see this - say a naive Dragon challenged A's right to the be in the House. Slash-parry-cut-expire. A is in the House. And she is presumably genetically Dragon, maybe with some odd hemoglobin genes. From davids at kithrup.com Tue Nov 18 19:50:41 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:50:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > >> And that's another example of someone from outside the system being >> recognized by the system. In order for Aliera to be legitimate, Verra >> must have been recognized by the Council of House Dragon as being an >> honorary Dragonlord, and properly married to Adron e'Kieron. >> >> Now, Verra doesn't *care* about such recognition, except in how it >> impacts Aliera, but House Dragon had to come to some sort of one-off >> definition in order for their system to not break down. > > >I don't quite see this - say a naive Dragon challenged A's right to the >be in the House. Slash-parry-cut-expire. A is in the House. I'm not talking about some "naive Dragon", presumably a kid, challenging her *now*. I'm talking about the entire Dragon Council, while Aliera was still an infant. Given that lineage is important enough to go to war over, I think even Adron and Verra would have to provide *some* evidence of legitimacy. Otherwise, well, I think we would have heard about the battle that laid waste to half the Empire for Aliera's sake. I've speculated elsewhere that Verra manifested and laid down the law to the Council, but that still means that they have to reconcile it in their own minds and in the official lineage records. > And she is presumably genetically Dragon, maybe with some odd >hemoglobin genes. > Quite possibly. Yet Verra has made the claim of not being *ever* human; of being a slave of the Jenoine before they ever arrived on Dragaera. I have to wonder if perhaps the relationship between Aliera and Verra is less genetically direct than they have currently implied. I've also speculated that the Necromancer was Aliera's genetic mother. Since she's a demon, who only showed up towards the end of the Interregnum, I still wonder if someone else is the source for the maternal half of Aliera's genes. From agrajag at dragaera.net Tue Nov 18 19:51:09 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 18 Nov 2003 22:51:09 -0500 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20031118200410.029f3960@pop.east.cox.net> References: <47188381.52494DD7.00048EA6@aol.com> <6.0.0.22.2.20031118200410.029f3960@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <1069213869.2022.12.camel@loiosh> On Tue, 2003-11-18 at 20:07, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > At 18:44 11/18/2003, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: > >Gaertk at aol.com writes: > > > > > Philip Hart writes: > > > > > > > Dumb question, but is Sethra technically a noble? > > > > > > She's referred to as "Baroness of Dzur Mountain" at least > > > once, though that may have been post-LoCB. If someone has > > > FHYA handy, they could check how she's introduced when she > > > appears in the Palace. > > > >500ya chapter 8, 43.3% through, she's announced as "The Baroness of > >Dzur Mountain and environs". Whether that's an official title may be > >another question. > > The use of "Baroness" is probably one of those thing that major-domos > probably would only use if they were positive it was correct. > > Which makes me wonder about Morrolan's rank (which I can't remember), as he > asked for tribute from Sethra in LoCB. Is he a Count of some kind? A > Marquis? A Duke? A Duke. Remember, he was the Dragon Heir when he went to the Paths with Vlad. Jag From agrajag at dragaera.net Tue Nov 18 20:00:13 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 18 Nov 2003 23:00:13 -0500 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <1069213869.2022.12.camel@loiosh> References: <47188381.52494DD7.00048EA6@aol.com> <6.0.0.22.2.20031118200410.029f3960@pop.east.cox.net> <1069213869.2022.12.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: <1069214413.2022.15.camel@loiosh> On Tue, 2003-11-18 at 22:51, Jag wrote: > On Tue, 2003-11-18 at 20:07, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > > > > Which makes me wonder about Morrolan's rank (which I can't remember), as he > > asked for tribute from Sethra in LoCB. Is he a Count of some kind? A > > Marquis? A Duke? > > A Duke. Remember, he was the Dragon Heir when he went to the Paths with > Vlad. Something I felt should be added.. in LoCB, Morrolan is Count of Southmoore. However, by Vlad's time, he has become a Duke. I don't remember exactly, but I think its mentioned in the end of LoCB how Morrolan was made a Duke by Zerika. From davids at kithrup.com Tue Nov 18 20:01:17 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:01:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sethra, light of Dzur Mountain, fire of the Cycle, my sorceress, my Lavode, se-the-ra (Was Piro/K'tan) In-Reply-To: <20031119030804.4066.qmail@berkano.pair.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 yaga at berkano.pair.com wrote: >> On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 yaga at berkano.pair.com wrote: >> >(that tossed in for the Sethra-is-a-vishivit faction) >> Sethra is a *what*? > >Sorry. Didn't realize the term was so obscure. "Vishivit" is used >for same-species mixed-breeding in multi-species fantasy worlds. You mean like, say, Dragonlance? Or is it Dragonquest? Never touch the stuff. > ie, half-human half-elf is a "half-elf," while half-sindar, >half-avari would be a "vishivit." Ah. One wonders what Tolkien might have thought. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Nov 18 20:03:49 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:03:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sethra, light of Dzur Mountain, fire of the Cycle, my sorceress, my Lavode, se-the-ra (Was Piro/K'tan) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 yaga at berkano.pair.com wrote: > > ie, half-human half-elf is a "half-elf," while half-sindar, > >half-avari would be a "vishivit." > > One wonders what Tolkien might have thought. In case one wonders what I think, it's that it looks too much like "vivishit", the stuff produced by someone-here's koalas. From davids at kithrup.com Tue Nov 18 20:06:03 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:06:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <1069214413.2022.15.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: On 18 Nov 2003, Jag wrote: > >Something I felt should be added.. in LoCB, Morrolan is Count of >Southmoore. However, by Vlad's time, he has become a Duke. I don't >remember exactly, but I think its mentioned in the end of LoCB how >Morrolan was made a Duke by Zerika. > Zerika offers him 3 counties "in the north" as a reward for lending her the use of his army. I'm nearly certain that this is what makes him the Duke of Eastmanswatch, as well as Count of Southmoor. She no doubt felt that this was a safe thing to do since the former heir to those lands was not, at that time, apparent. From alexx at panix.com Tue Nov 18 20:54:37 2003 From: alexx at panix.com (Alexander Kay) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 23:54:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <1dc.14b44295.2cec0a53@aol.com> from "Talpianna@aol.com" at Nov 18, 2003 06:50:43 PM Message-ID: <200311190454.hAJ4sbn14300@panix3.panix.com> > And I suspect she holds it in fee simple absolute, not owing rents or > reliefs, as a reward for past services to the Empire. In all this discussion, people keep assuming that SL "holds" Dzur Mountain. I have a sneaking suspicion that the reverse is more nearly true. Alexx Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers. alexx at carolingiaSPAMBL@CK.org http://www.panix.com/~alexx "Besides, what with the safe sex situation and all -- even if I were interested -- I'd be afraid to step outside the bounds of monogamy. I've even considered giving up diddling in case I give myself something. I figure I'll just be friends with myself until they find a cure for everything." -- Nurse Jones From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Wed Nov 19 00:23:24 2003 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 00:23:24 -0800 Subject: Whups (Was: Re: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan....) Message-ID: <200311190023.AA2359570@amish2000.com> Er, my mass apologies to the list at large for amazing amounts of multiple-posts. I'm not sure how it happened - I'm _pretty_ sure I only hit "send" once - but... yes. I'm very sorry and I won't do it again and please don't make me stand in the corner. ? MJ From casca913 at gbronline.com Tue Nov 18 22:17:39 2003 From: casca913 at gbronline.com (Charlie Smith) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 00:17:39 -0600 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... References: Message-ID: <006601c3ae64$d809f640$4d570945@pentium4> > Snort. I imagine that she got over any such false modesty after the > Third or Fourth Cycle, at the very latest. Yes, but it would seem that her apprentice had plenty of that to make up for elder Sethra's lacking. It would be interesting to know just how many apprentices Mrs. Lavode has had over the eons besides the one (or two if you count Zerika) we know of. --- "The adding of a single thread changes the garment." --- Jhereg, Ch. 16, pg. 143 From casca913 at gbronline.com Tue Nov 18 22:29:06 2003 From: casca913 at gbronline.com (Charlie Smith) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 00:29:06 -0600 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... References: Message-ID: <006e01c3ae66$6f60fbf0$4d570945@pentium4> > On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > > > And that's another example of someone from outside the system being > > recognized by the system. In order for Aliera to be legitimate, Verra > > must have been recognized by the Council of House Dragon as being an > > honorary Dragonlord, and properly married to Adron e'Kieron. > > > > Now, Verra doesn't *care* about such recognition, except in how it > > impacts Aliera, but House Dragon had to come to some sort of one-off > > definition in order for their system to not break down. > > > I don't quite see this - say a naive Dragon challenged A's right to the > be in the House. Slash-parry-cut-expire. A is in the House. And she > is presumably genetically Dragon, maybe with some odd hemoglobin genes. > That does bring to my mind, noble sir, whether the aforementioned house has had the genetic magic since the beginning of the empire that we love so much. I would dare to presume so for otherwise it would present some grave problems in the early days for determination of purity. The abilities of the wizards pre-interregnum being what they were, I can scarce believe it to be true. . . But then again, such a spell shouldn't take up too much power, just be very intricate and involved I would think. I often get dragged into the train of thought that the pre-Disaster wizards were weaker then the "Modern" sorcerers instead of thinking of them as just underpowered and over-specialized. Just imagine, however, what confusion that would have been. A half-breed or "Vishivit" would only be detectable by the visual inspection which is readily fooled if heredical luck is on your side. From casca913 at gbronline.com Tue Nov 18 22:36:58 2003 From: casca913 at gbronline.com (Charlie Smith) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 00:36:58 -0600 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... References: Message-ID: <008201c3ae67$88b629d0$4d570945@pentium4> > > > >I don't quite see this - say a naive Dragon challenged A's right to the > >be in the House. Slash-parry-cut-expire. A is in the House. > > I'm not talking about some "naive Dragon", presumably a kid, > challenging her *now*. I'm talking about the entire Dragon Council, > while Aliera was still an infant. > > Given that lineage is important enough to go to war over, I think even > Adron and Verra would have to provide *some* evidence of legitimacy. > Otherwise, well, I think we would have heard about the battle that > laid waste to half the Empire for Aliera's sake. > > I've speculated elsewhere that Verra manifested and laid down the law > to the Council, but that still means that they have to reconcile it in > their own minds and in the official lineage records. I doubt they see it as a real big problem with thier view of the gods. I admit that it is easier to think of Verra and her Ilk from Vlad's point of view as a semi-mythical personage to be worshipped (although very tentatively in Vlad's case) then to wrap my head around a god being just another person to be met, invited to tea and crumpets, and then "Knocked Up" during a wild Christmas party. Which begs a question. Do you think that Verra had a hard delivery with Aliera, or did she use her godly powers as mythical morphine? From sabia at mojoworld.net Tue Nov 18 23:51:07 2003 From: sabia at mojoworld.net (sabia at mojoworld.net) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 23:51:07 -0800 Subject: Divine maternity (WAS: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan....) Message-ID: <5396916D8B3BD44796A5A5EAEA93AEDF013ACE@deathstar.internal.mojoworld.net> Hrm. I'm of the opinion that Aliera is a gender-adjusted, gene-tweaked near clone of Adron rather than a hybrid. Adron, who had to have been the Dragons' most eligible bachelor, likely didn't want to muck about with courting and marriage but wanted an heir. Verra may have made the price of his knowledge of Elder Sorcery his acceptance of the child she produced for him or simply, serve me and I'll get you a kid without the complications. The other gods didn't seem to treat Aliera as all that in _Taltos_ without Verra's insistence mixed with the probable knowledge that Aliera had to be able leave the Paths because they were babysitting the future proof that she did so. -Sabia -----Original Message----- From: Charlie Smith [mailto:casca913 at gbronline.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 10:37 PM To: Dragarean Email Group Subject: Re: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... I doubt they see it as a real big problem with thier view of the gods. I admit that it is easier to think of Verra and her Ilk from Vlad's point of view as a semi-mythical personage to be worshipped (although very tentatively in Vlad's case) then to wrap my head around a god being just another person to be met, invited to tea and crumpets, and then "Knocked Up" during a wild Christmas party. Which begs a question. Do you think that Verra had a hard delivery with Aliera, or did she use her godly powers as mythical morphine? From agrajag at dragaera.net Wed Nov 19 05:50:05 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 08:50:05 -0500 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <006601c3ae64$d809f640$4d570945@pentium4>; from casca913@gbronline.com on Wed, Nov 19, 2003 at 12:17:39AM -0600 References: <006601c3ae64$d809f640$4d570945@pentium4> Message-ID: <20031119085005.C30183@vallista.dragaera.net> On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Charlie Smith wrote: > > > > Snort. I imagine that she got over any such false modesty after the > > Third or Fourth Cycle, at the very latest. > > Yes, but it would seem that her apprentice had plenty of that to make up for > elder Sethra's lacking. > > It would be interesting to know just how many apprentices Mrs. Lavode has > had over the eons besides the one (or two if you count Zerika) we know of. Sethra The Younger, Tazendra, and maybe Zerika. That's two or three, not one or two. Which of course begs the question, when is Tazendra going to try to kill Sethra Lavode? From agrajag at dragaera.net Wed Nov 19 05:52:40 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 08:52:40 -0500 Subject: Divine maternity (WAS: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan....) In-Reply-To: <5396916D8B3BD44796A5A5EAEA93AEDF013ACE@deathstar.internal.mojoworld.net>; from sabia@mojoworld.net on Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 11:51:07PM -0800 References: <5396916D8B3BD44796A5A5EAEA93AEDF013ACE@deathstar.internal.mojoworld.net> Message-ID: <20031119085240.D30183@vallista.dragaera.net> On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, sabia at mojoworld.net wrote: > Hrm. I'm of the opinion that Aliera is a gender-adjusted, gene-tweaked near clone of Adron rather than a hybrid. Adron, who had to have been the Dragons' most eligible bachelor, likely didn't want to muck about with courting and marriage but wanted an heir. Verra may have made the price of his knowledge of Elder Sorcery his acceptance of the child she produced for him or simply, serve me and I'll get you a kid without the complications. Interesting theory, but in Phoenix Guards, we see where Aliera's birth is announced to Adron, and IIRC, he was quite surprised when he heard about it. This may just be Paarfi not knowing all the facts, but it seems to indicate to me that Adron wasn't expecting the demon Goddess to bear him a child. From warlord at dragon.com Wed Nov 19 07:02:34 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:02:34 -0500 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: David Silberstein [mailto:davids at kithrup.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 10:51 PM > To: Dragaera List > Subject: Re: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... > > > On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > >On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > > > >> And that's another example of someone from outside the system being > >> recognized by the system. In order for Aliera to be legitimate, Verra > >> must have been recognized by the Council of House Dragon as being an > >> honorary Dragonlord, and properly married to Adron e'Kieron. > >> > >> Now, Verra doesn't *care* about such recognition, except in how it > >> impacts Aliera, but House Dragon had to come to some sort of one-off > >> definition in order for their system to not break down. > > > > > >I don't quite see this - say a naive Dragon challenged A's right to the > >be in the House. Slash-parry-cut-expire. A is in the House. > > I'm not talking about some "naive Dragon", presumably a kid, > challenging her *now*. I'm talking about the entire Dragon Council, > while Aliera was still an infant. > > Given that lineage is important enough to go to war over, I think even > Adron and Verra would have to provide *some* evidence of legitimacy. > Otherwise, well, I think we would have heard about the battle that > laid waste to half the Empire for Aliera's sake. > > I've speculated elsewhere that Verra manifested and laid down the law > to the Council, but that still means that they have to reconcile it in > their own minds and in the official lineage records. > > > And she is presumably genetically Dragon, maybe with some odd > >hemoglobin genes. > > > > Quite possibly. Yet Verra has made the claim of not being *ever* > human; of being a slave of the Jenoine before they ever arrived on > Dragaera. I have to wonder if perhaps the relationship between > Aliera and Verra is less genetically direct than they have currently > implied. > > I've also speculated that the Necromancer was Aliera's genetic mother. > Since she's a demon, who only showed up towards the end of the > Interregnum, I still wonder if someone else is the source for the > maternal half of Aliera's genes. > *Ah ha! It's speculation day. I LOVE WAG* specualtion days...... *rubs hands gleefully, kicks atomic powered imagination into gear* Devera is the result of Sethra and Aliera (with Vlad et al., of course) using parthenogenetics combined with Jenoine gene splicing to copy Verra (killed, tragically, in defense of Vlad whom she loves because he is also the soulicular reincarnation of Bartlett) so they can escape the Jenoine in The Last Contract. Morrolans WINDOW gets a massive jolt of chaos as Devera is thrown through. She is saved by Vlad and Godslayer, but as a result is tossed through time. Since she has all of Verra's memories (God's blood + parthenogenetics = automatic memory regression and recall) she uses her time shifting to assist those who valiantly made and saved her with the plus of being able to save her own future. We now return you to your conventional, non-radioactive speculation. Why, yes, I *have* had several cups of coffee this morning. Why do you ask ? Warlord * WAG = Wild Ass Guess From zarkon at illrepute.org Wed Nov 19 08:15:36 2003 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:15:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: vishi-whatever In-Reply-To: <20031119030804.4066.qmail@berkano.pair.com> References: <20031119030804.4066.qmail@berkano.pair.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 yaga at berkano.pair.com wrote: @> > On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 yaga at berkano.pair.com wrote: @> > >(that tossed in for the Sethra-is-a-vishivit faction) @> > Sethra is a *what*? @> @> Sorry. Didn't realize the term was so obscure. "Vishivit" is used @> for same-species mixed-breeding in multi-species fantasy worlds. ie, @> half-human half-elf is a "half-elf," while half-sindar, half-avari @> would be a "vishivit." @> @> - Peter / Yaga If Google doesn't know about it, it's pretty damned obscure. In fact, the only hits I get on it are in a site owned by somebody named Yaga, in the middle of some fiction that this person obviously wrote. And wait, what's that in your signature block? Hmmmm. From zarkon at illrepute.org Wed Nov 19 08:21:02 2003 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:21:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: @> > And she is presumably genetically Dragon, maybe with some odd @> >hemoglobin genes. @> @> Quite possibly. Yet Verra has made the claim of not being *ever* @> human; of being a slave of the Jenoine before they ever arrived on @> Dragaera. I have to wonder if perhaps the relationship between @> Aliera and Verra is less genetically direct than they have currently @> implied. @> @> I've also speculated that the Necromancer was Aliera's genetic mother. @> Since she's a demon, who only showed up towards the end of the @> Interregnum, I still wonder if someone else is the source for the @> maternal half of Aliera's genes. It would be somewhat odd if this were the case, since that would make Aliera's ability to leave the Paths of the Dead very mysterious. If Verra didn't have the ability to reshape her genetic material, I would be quite surprised. As for her acceptance as a Dragon... well, even in a society which doesn't consider gods to be all /that/ special, demigods are likely to be treated slightly differently than your average citizen. From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Wed Nov 19 08:31:58 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:31:58 -0500 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <20031119085005.C30183@vallista.dragaera.net> References: <006601c3ae64$d809f640$4d570945@pentium4> <20031119085005.C30183@vallista.dragaera.net> Message-ID: <20031119163158.GA49162@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Wed, Nov 19, 2003 at 08:50:05AM -0500, Jag wrote: > On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Charlie Smith wrote: > > > It would be interesting to know just how many apprentices Mrs. Lavode has > > had over the eons besides the one (or two if you count Zerika) we know of. > > Sethra The Younger, Tazendra, and maybe Zerika. That's two or three, > not one or two. > > Which of course begs the question, when is Tazendra going to try to kill > Sethra Lavode? I got the impression that Tazendra is doing an apprenticeship to become a Lavode, not a general apprenticeship under Sethra Lavode. The latter seems to be the group that tries to kill her. -- "I try not to sound old and cynical, but it's hard to do that when you're old and cynical." -me From mklahn at mac.com Wed Nov 19 08:42:23 2003 From: mklahn at mac.com (Matthew Klahn) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:42:23 -0600 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59B2304A-1AAF-11D8-A675-000393D1260C@mac.com> On Nov 18, 2003, at 20:27 , ReVibe68 at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/18/03 9:17:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, > ReVibe68 at aol.com writes: > > >> It was Khaavren > > HOwever in the face of such opposition I am eventually going to find > my copy > of Phoenix and read it verrry carefully from cover to cover.....And > then I'll > let ya know. > -Cya! You can re-read Phoenix, but it will help you not the least in the world in this instance, as the face-cutting scene occurs in _Teckla_, when Vlad is having the Jhereg war with Hearth (who is the face-cuttee), and Hearth confronts the female Dragonlord Lieutenant of the Phoenix Guards (the face-cutter) who is having the stand off with Cawti's friends over the blockade of the Easterners section (or was it Little Deathsgate?) from the rest of Adrilankha. Hearth approaches the Dragonlord with the offer of getting Kelly to "stop the madness" peacefully. The Lieutenant shows her contempt for Hearth by drawing a knife, testing it on her thumb, showing it to him and then cutting his face and wiping the blade on his cloak. To his credit, Hearth doesn't flinch. Now, there is a moment of confusion, as when Hearth first gets there, he "identifies the captain" and approaches. I'm assuming that this is what causes this confusion with Khaavren, but not two paragraphs later, and through the rest of the scene, this Dragonlord is referred to as Lieutenant, with a capital 'L', which would, I guess, signify her actual rank, whereas "captain" was with a lower-case 'c'. I didn't bring my copy of Teckla to work with me, but I did re-read this scene to verify the particulars this morning in preparation for clearing up this misconception, should the need arise, which I nearly think has occurred. You're welcome. :) [Loiosh: My, we're feeling smug today, aren't we? Me: Heh.] -- Matthew S. Klahn Software Architect, CodeTek Studios, Inc. http://www.codetek.com From yaga at berkano.pair.com Wed Nov 19 09:23:10 2003 From: yaga at berkano.pair.com (yaga at berkano.pair.com) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 12:23:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: vishi-whatever In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031119172310.95908.qmail@berkano.pair.com> *blink* I used it because I thought it was a good word, but I could have sworn I read it somewhere. I'm going to have to dig out my Similarion now, I just know it. Grrr. Sorry for the digression, Peter / Yaga > On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 yaga at berkano.pair.com wrote: > > @> > On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 yaga at berkano.pair.com wrote: > @> > >(that tossed in for the Sethra-is-a-vishivit faction) > @> > Sethra is a *what*? > @> > @> Sorry. Didn't realize the term was so obscure. "Vishivit" is used > @> for same-species mixed-breeding in multi-species fantasy worlds. ie, > @> half-human half-elf is a "half-elf," while half-sindar, half-avari > @> would be a "vishivit." > @> > @> - Peter / Yaga > > If Google doesn't know about it, it's pretty damned obscure. > > In fact, the only hits I get on it are in a site owned by somebody named > Yaga, in the middle of some fiction that this person obviously wrote. And > wait, what's that in your signature block? Hmmmm. > From Talpianna at aol.com Wed Nov 19 11:12:46 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 14:12:46 EST Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: In a message dated 11/18/2003 11:28:24 PM US Mountain Standard Time, casca913 at gbronline.com writes: >It would be interesting to know just how many apprentices Mrs. >Lavode has >had over the eons besides the one (or two if you count Zerika) we >know of. I count Tazendra and Sethra the Younger at least. Possibly the Sorceress in Green. Have we any definitive statement that Sethra Lavode is even human (or Dragaeran)? I've wondered if she were a renegade Jenoine, a la Prometheus, defecting to help mortals. BTW, am I current on the Jenoine? It is my impression that they are some sort of race of Cosmic Masters who brought both the ancestors of the Dragaerans, and the Easterners, to Dragaera to run an experiment on them. What their relationship with the gods is, I don't know. tal, still wondering what it takes to be a Lavode P.S. MY Sethra Lavode IS going to have a lovely plumed tail. From mam at theworld.com Wed Nov 19 11:15:55 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 14:15:55 -0500 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <200311190454.hAJ4sbn14300@panix3.panix.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Alexander Kay wrote: # #> And I suspect she holds it in fee simple absolute, not owing rents or #> reliefs, as a reward for past services to the Empire. # #In all this discussion, people keep assuming that SL "holds" Dzur Mountain. # #I have a sneaking suspicion that the reverse is more nearly true. I think it's reciprocal, and that in some important sense SL *is* Dzur Mountain. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website Now, mind you, this is only one man's opinion. From mam at theworld.com Wed Nov 19 11:24:35 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 14:24:35 -0500 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <59B2304A-1AAF-11D8-A675-000393D1260C@mac.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Matthew Klahn wrote: #You can re-read Phoenix, but it will help you not the least in the #world in this instance, as the face-cutting scene occurs in _Teckla_, #when Vlad is having the Jhereg war with Hearth (who is the "Herth", isn't it? (AFB*) Whatever the spelling, I'm sure it's not that. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website * away from books From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Nov 19 11:31:58 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:31:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: <200311191931.hAJJVwg11404@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Jenoine stuff. If you don't know, and don't want to know, don't read. Slight Spoiler Stuff..... tal wrote: > BTW, am I current on the Jenoine? It is my impression that they are some > sort of race of Cosmic Masters who brought both the ancestors of the Dragaerans, > and the Easterners, to Dragaera to run an experiment on them. What their > relationship with the gods is, I don't know. Almost. It's my understanding that they are some sort of "Cosmic Masters", but they didn't bring the Dragaerans or Easterners to Dragaera. They arrived in Dragaera to find it populated by Easterns (who came from the "small, invisible lights":), and started messing around with their DNA, genes, etc. and created the Dragaeran race. Then the Gods rebelled against their masters, kicked them out, and helped start the Empire. I'm about 50 miles away from my books at the moment, so if anyone will correct my mistakes, I'd appreciate it. :) A question sparked by this: Where does the Cycle (the actual Big Wheel) come into play, and are the Gods bound by it, or it by them? The Gods mention the Cycle in LoCB and say something about ignoring it and that it, regardless, would continue to turn whether they ignored it or not. Which came first, the Cycle or the Gods? What about the Empire? Hmmm.... This one's going to bug me, I can tell.... :0 Chris "If you can't live without me, die already." ~Cynthia Heimel From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Wed Nov 19 11:47:06 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 14:47:06 -0500 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <200311191931.hAJJVwg11404@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200311191931.hAJJVwg11404@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <3FBBC8BA.6030803@earthlink.net> Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: >Which came first, the Cycle or the Gods? What about the Empire? > > I suspect the gods came first, unless the Cycle included the other 14 tribes and could drop them from its face as they disappeared. But given that the Cycle is a representation of who is in charge of the Empire, and the Empire didn't exist until after some of the gods rebelled, I think it's safe to assume that they came first. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Wed Nov 19 11:53:19 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 14:53:19 -0500 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FBBCA2F.2050106@earthlink.net> Talpianna at aol.com wrote: >BTW, am I current on the Jenoine? It is my impression that they are some >sort of race of Cosmic Masters who brought both the ancestors of the Dragaerans, >and the Easterners, to Dragaera to run an experiment on them. What their >relationship with the gods is, I don't know. > > Well, Issola sheds a lot of light on the Jenoine and stuff that happened when they were on Dragaera regularly. If you haven't read it yet, I highly recommend it. *grin* > tal, still wondering what it takes to be a Lavode > > To be a Lavode, I suppose you have to come to Sethra's attention as a warrior and sorcerer of some skill. It seems that pre-Interregnum, most warriors were not also wizards, even if they had some skill in sorcery. The reverse might also have been true, I suppose, although it seems like every Dragaeran noble is capable of defending himself. The Lavodes were a group established to help Sethra defend the Empire against whatever threats needed the attention of a group of warriors skilled in wizardry. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Wed Nov 19 11:51:40 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:51:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: <200311191951.hAJJpeg14424@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Jose wrote: > Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > >Which came first, the Cycle or the Gods? What about the Empire? > > > > > I suspect the gods came first, unless the Cycle included the other 14 > tribes and could drop them from its face as they disappeared. But given > that the Cycle is a representation of who is in charge of the Empire, > and the Empire didn't exist until after some of the gods rebelled, I > think it's safe to assume that they came first. Very well, I concede that the Cycle came after the Gods. (Given the timeline, I suspected as much.) That doesn't explain why the Gods seem to be somewhat beholden to the Cycle. Wouldn't they have been its creator? I suppose even the creators might have to answer to it, but given their nature (at least some of them) I would have suspected them of just making alterations where needed. They did it with the Orb, and the Cycle is in the Paths with them. Just curious, as usual--gonna get me killed one day.... Chris "I feel if a person can't communicate, the very least they can do is shut up." ~ Tom Lehrer ~ From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Nov 19 11:52:25 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:52:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <3FBBC8BA.6030803@earthlink.net> References: <200311191931.hAJJVwg11404@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <3FBBC8BA.6030803@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Jose Marquez wrote: > Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > >Which came first, the Cycle or the Gods? What about the Empire? > > > > > I suspect the gods came first, unless the Cycle included the other 14 > tribes and could drop them from its face as they disappeared. But given > that the Cycle is a representation of who is in charge of the Empire, > and the Empire didn't exist until after some of the gods rebelled, I > think it's safe to assume that they came first. Order likely: the physical 17-Cycle (uebergodly, fabric of reality thingee) the J (nasty physicists/biologists) Serioli evolve on Dragaera Easterners on Dragaera J on Dragaera (lots of suicidal physicist J, happy bio J) n>17 sorts of Dragaerans trip-oops-boom-chuckle Gods m>17 ( Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU] > Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 2:52 PM > To: Dragaera > Subject: Re: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... > > > > > On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Jose Marquez wrote: > > > Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > > > >Which came first, the Cycle or the Gods? What about the Empire? > > > > > > > > I suspect the gods came first, unless the Cycle included the other 14 > > tribes and could drop them from its face as they disappeared. But given > > that the Cycle is a representation of who is in charge of the Empire, > > and the Empire didn't exist until after some of the gods rebelled, I > > think it's safe to assume that they came first. > > > Order likely: the physical 17-Cycle (uebergodly, fabric of > reality thingee) > the J (nasty physicists/biologists) > Serioli evolve on Dragaera > Easterners on Dragaera > J on Dragaera (lots of suicidal physicist J, happy bio J) > n>17 sorts of Dragaerans > trip-oops-boom-chuckle > Gods > m>17 ( 17 Houses > This reminds me of the complete, unabridged history of the universe: BANG! .... crumple. W From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Nov 19 12:05:29 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 12:05:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Warlord wrote: > > From: Philip Hart > > > > Order likely: the physical 17-Cycle (uebergodly, fabric of > > reality thingee) > > the J (nasty physicists/biologists) > > Serioli evolve on Dragaera > > Easterners on Dragaera > > J on Dragaera (lots of suicidal physicist J, happy bio J) > > n>17 sorts of Dragaerans > > trip-oops-boom-chuckle > > Gods > > m>17 ( > 17 Houses > > > > This reminds me of the complete, unabridged > history of the universe: > > BANG! .... crumple. Yeah, except these days it's more like: bang... KABOOM!... wooosh... ^ ^ | | | -- dark energy expansion -- inflation From pgranzeau at cox.net Wed Nov 19 12:02:23 2003 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 15:02:23 -0500 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <1D80C9FC-1A31-11D8-81FF-0003938F1608@comcast.net> References: <1D80C9FC-1A31-11D8-81FF-0003938F1608@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031119150056.029fab40@pop.east.cox.net> At 20:38 11/18/2003, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: >Sethra has turned down godhead; I suspect that nobility is not an issue >that concerns her. It does, however, concern those around her. Either she >holds a patent of nobility granted by Kieron himself, or, on the other >hand, who exactly the hell would go up to her and ask, "undead sorceress, >great weapon wielder, defender from the Jenoine for 200,000 years, holder >of Dzur mountain, are you a noble or are you my inferior...?" From text evidence (LoCB), Morrolan might have (although in retrospect, he merely asked for feudal tribute, I guess). -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From warlord at dragon.com Wed Nov 19 12:09:43 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 15:09:43 -0500 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU] > > On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Warlord wrote: > > > From: Philip Hart > > > > > > Order likely: the physical 17-Cycle (uebergodly, fabric of > > > reality thingee) > > > the J (nasty physicists/biologists) > > > Serioli evolve on Dragaera > > > Easterners on Dragaera > > > J on Dragaera (lots of suicidal physicist J, > happy bio J) > > > n>17 sorts of Dragaerans > > > trip-oops-boom-chuckle > > > Gods > > > m>17 ( > > 17 Houses > > > > > > > This reminds me of the complete, unabridged > > history of the universe: > > > > BANG! .... crumple. > > Yeah, except these days it's more like: > > bang... KABOOM!... wooosh... > ^ ^ > | | > | -- dark energy expansion > -- inflation I thought you were a scientist, not a CNN reporter. W From mklahn at mac.com Wed Nov 19 12:10:56 2003 From: mklahn at mac.com (Matthew Klahn) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 14:10:56 -0600 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7BE8BA58-1ACC-11D8-A675-000393D1260C@mac.com> Yes, you are of course correct. He's not some form of fireplace... On Nov 19, 2003, at 13:24 , Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Matthew Klahn wrote: > > #You can re-read Phoenix, but it will help you not the least in the > #world in this instance, as the face-cutting scene occurs in _Teckla_, > #when Vlad is having the Jhereg war with Hearth (who is the > > "Herth", isn't it? (AFB*) Whatever the spelling, I'm sure it's not > that. > > -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and > Philological Busybody > a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel > http://cracksandshards.com > a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website > > * away from books > > -- Matthew S. Klahn Software Architect, CodeTek Studios, Inc. http://www.codetek.com From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Nov 19 12:21:41 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 12:21:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <7BE8BA58-1ACC-11D8-A675-000393D1260C@mac.com> References: <7BE8BA58-1ACC-11D8-A675-000393D1260C@mac.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Matthew Klahn wrote: > > On Nov 19, 2003, at 13:24 , Mark A Mandel wrote: > > > On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Matthew Klahn wrote: > > > > #You can re-read Phoenix, but it will help you not the least in the > > #world in this instance, as the face-cutting scene occurs in _Teckla_, > > #when Vlad is having the Jhereg war with Hearth (who is the > > > > "Herth", isn't it? (AFB*) Whatever the spelling, I'm sure it's not > > that. > Yes, you are of course correct. He's not some form of fireplace... He probably ended up in one after being crushed by Vlad. From dd-b at dd-b.net Wed Nov 19 14:03:49 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 19 Nov 2003 16:03:49 -0600 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mark A Mandel writes: > On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Matthew Klahn wrote: > > #You can re-read Phoenix, but it will help you not the least in the > #world in this instance, as the face-cutting scene occurs in _Teckla_, > #when Vlad is having the Jhereg war with Hearth (who is the > > "Herth", isn't it? (AFB*) Whatever the spelling, I'm sure it's not that. Booksearch thinks so. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From alexx at panix.com Wed Nov 19 14:19:09 2003 From: alexx at panix.com (Alexander Kay) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 17:19:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <200311191951.hAJJpeg14424@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> from "Chris Olson - SunPS" at Nov 19, 2003 11:51:40 AM Message-ID: <200311192219.hAJMJ9q28281@panix3.panix.com> > > Jose wrote: > > Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > > > >Which came first, the Cycle or the Gods? What about the Empire? > > > > > > > > I suspect the gods came first, unless the Cycle included the other 14 > > tribes and could drop them from its face as they disappeared. But given > > that the Cycle is a representation of who is in charge of the Empire, > > and the Empire didn't exist until after some of the gods rebelled, I > > think it's safe to assume that they came first. > > Very well, I concede that the Cycle came after the Gods. > (Given the timeline, I suspected as much.) > > That doesn't explain why the Gods seem to be somewhat beholden > to the Cycle. Wouldn't they have been its creator? I suppose > even the creators might have to answer to it, but given their > nature (at least some of them) I would have suspected them of > just making alterations where needed. They did it with the > Orb, and the Cycle is in the Paths with them. Quoting my own quote from the Timeline: The Cycle "created"??? Barlen asserts that "it is part of the fundamental nature of the universe" (PD 193). I should note that this assertion has an even larger number of unreliable narrators than is common: Brust translating Paarfi relating a conversation that is theoretical between powerful, yet known-to-be-fallible Gods. Apply salt liberally. Alexx Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers. alexx at carolingiaSPAMBL@CK.org http://www.panix.com/~alexx "His revolver slid noisily across the floor and stopped abruptly (like intercourse when the woman's husband comes home early) and a pregnant silence ensued (also rather like the early husband thing.)" -- from "The Return of Phil Noir" by Minstrel From pulmon at comcast.net Wed Nov 19 15:06:41 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:06:41 -0500 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <096BD450-1AE5-11D8-81FF-0003938F1608@comcast.net> Humans (Easterners) antedated both the Jenoine and Humans (Dragaerans) on Dragaera. The J used animal DNA to modify human DNA to produce "enhanced" people AKA Dragaerans. On Nov 19, 2003, at 2:12 PM, Talpianna at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/18/2003 11:28:24 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > casca913 at gbronline.com writes: >> It would be interesting to know just how many apprentices Mrs. >> >Lavode has >> had over the eons besides the one (or two if you count Zerika) we >> >know of. > I count Tazendra and Sethra the Younger at least. Possibly the > Sorceress in > Green. > > Have we any definitive statement that Sethra Lavode is even human (or > Dragaeran)? I've wondered if she were a renegade Jenoine, a la > Prometheus, defecting > to help mortals. > > BTW, am I current on the Jenoine? It is my impression that they are > some > sort of race of Cosmic Masters who brought both the ancestors of the > Dragaerans, > and the Easterners, to Dragaera to run an experiment on them. What > their > relationship with the gods is, I don't know. > > tal, still wondering what it takes to be a > Lavode > > P.S. MY Sethra Lavode IS going to have a lovely plumed tail. From pulmon at comcast.net Wed Nov 19 15:10:24 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:10:24 -0500 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: References: <200311191931.hAJJVwg11404@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <3FBBC8BA.6030803@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <8E8BBCB3-1AE5-11D8-81FF-0003938F1608@comcast.net> Interesting theory. On the other hand, I always thought that the Cycle was some sort of Cosmic Engine created by the gods, and now binding them, that is instrumental in keeping the J out of D(odge)ragaera... On Nov 19, 2003, at 2:52 PM, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Jose Marquez wrote: > >> Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: >> >>> Which came first, the Cycle or the Gods? What about the Empire? >>> >>> >> I suspect the gods came first, unless the Cycle included the other 14 >> tribes and could drop them from its face as they disappeared. But >> given >> that the Cycle is a representation of who is in charge of the Empire, >> and the Empire didn't exist until after some of the gods rebelled, I >> think it's safe to assume that they came first. > > > Order likely: the physical 17-Cycle (uebergodly, fabric of reality > thingee) > the J (nasty physicists/biologists) > Serioli evolve on Dragaera > Easterners on Dragaera > J on Dragaera (lots of suicidal physicist J, happy bio J) > n>17 sorts of Dragaerans > trip-oops-boom-chuckle > Gods > m>17 ( 17 Houses > From pulmon at comcast.net Wed Nov 19 15:11:15 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:11:15 -0500 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <7BE8BA58-1ACC-11D8-A675-000393D1260C@mac.com> References: <7BE8BA58-1ACC-11D8-A675-000393D1260C@mac.com> Message-ID: No, but after all, Home is where the Herth is... On Nov 19, 2003, at 3:10 PM, Matthew Klahn wrote: > Yes, you are of course correct. He's not some form of fireplace... > > On Nov 19, 2003, at 13:24 , Mark A Mandel wrote: > >> On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Matthew Klahn wrote: >> >> #You can re-read Phoenix, but it will help you not the least in the >> #world in this instance, as the face-cutting scene occurs in _Teckla_, >> #when Vlad is having the Jhereg war with Hearth (who is the >> >> "Herth", isn't it? (AFB*) Whatever the spelling, I'm sure it's not >> that. >> >> -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and >> Philological Busybody >> a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel >> http://cracksandshards.com >> a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website >> >> * away from books >> >> > -- > Matthew S. Klahn > Software Architect, CodeTek Studios, Inc. > http://www.codetek.com > From pulmon at comcast.net Wed Nov 19 15:12:51 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:12:51 -0500 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <200311191951.hAJJpeg14424@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200311191951.hAJJpeg14424@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: Remember--even Sauron had to inject the major part of his power into the Ring to make it work. The gods needed to do very much the same to fire up the Cycle... On Nov 19, 2003, at 2:51 PM, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > Jose wrote: >> Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: >> >>> Which came first, the Cycle or the Gods? What about the Empire? >>> >>> >> I suspect the gods came first, unless the Cycle included the other 14 >> tribes and could drop them from its face as they disappeared. But >> given >> that the Cycle is a representation of who is in charge of the Empire, >> and the Empire didn't exist until after some of the gods rebelled, I >> think it's safe to assume that they came first. > > Very well, I concede that the Cycle came after the Gods. > (Given the timeline, I suspected as much.) > > That doesn't explain why the Gods seem to be somewhat beholden > to the Cycle. Wouldn't they have been its creator? I suppose > even the creators might have to answer to it, but given their > nature (at least some of them) I would have suspected them of > just making alterations where needed. They did it with the > Orb, and the Cycle is in the Paths with them. > > Just curious, as usual--gonna get me killed one day.... > > Chris > > "I feel if a person can't communicate, > the very least they can do is shut up." > ~ Tom Lehrer ~ > > From pulmon at comcast.net Wed Nov 19 15:13:51 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:13:51 -0500 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20031119150056.029fab40@pop.east.cox.net> References: <1D80C9FC-1A31-11D8-81FF-0003938F1608@comcast.net> <6.0.0.22.2.20031119150056.029fab40@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <09B7BF62-1AE6-11D8-81FF-0003938F1608@comcast.net> M never questioned SL's nobility--he just wanted to see why she hadn't filed her 1040... On Nov 19, 2003, at 3:02 PM, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > At 20:38 11/18/2003, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: >> Sethra has turned down godhead; I suspect that nobility is not an >> issue that concerns her. It does, however, concern those around her. >> Either she holds a patent of nobility granted by Kieron himself, or, >> on the other hand, who exactly the hell would go up to her and ask, >> "undead sorceress, great weapon wielder, defender from the Jenoine >> for 200,000 years, holder of Dzur mountain, are you a noble or are >> you my inferior...?" > > From text evidence (LoCB), Morrolan might have (although in > retrospect, he merely asked for feudal tribute, I guess). > > > -- > Regards, Pete > pgranzeau at cox.net From pulmon at comcast.net Wed Nov 19 15:16:17 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:16:17 -0500 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <20031119085005.C30183@vallista.dragaera.net> References: <006601c3ae64$d809f640$4d570945@pentium4> <20031119085005.C30183@vallista.dragaera.net> Message-ID: <60915FE0-1AE6-11D8-81FF-0003938F1608@comcast.net> When did Z become an APPRENTICE to SL? She received instruction from her, of course, but apprentice? Hardly... On Nov 19, 2003, at 8:50 AM, Jag wrote: > On Wed, 19 Nov 2003, Charlie Smith wrote: > >> >> >>> Snort. I imagine that she got over any such false modesty after the >>> Third or Fourth Cycle, at the very latest. >> >> Yes, but it would seem that her apprentice had plenty of that to make >> up for >> elder Sethra's lacking. >> >> It would be interesting to know just how many apprentices Mrs. Lavode >> has >> had over the eons besides the one (or two if you count Zerika) we >> know of. > > Sethra The Younger, Tazendra, and maybe Zerika. That's two or three, > not one or two. > > Which of course begs the question, when is Tazendra going to try to > kill > Sethra Lavode? > From pulmon at comcast.net Wed Nov 19 15:17:32 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:17:32 -0500 Subject: vishi-whatever In-Reply-To: References: <20031119030804.4066.qmail@berkano.pair.com> Message-ID: <8D4DEEE4-1AE6-11D8-81FF-0003938F1608@comcast.net> Personally, I think that vishivit is a kind of vishy-vashy aquavit.... On Nov 19, 2003, at 11:15 AM, John Klein wrote: > On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 yaga at berkano.pair.com wrote: > > @> > On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 yaga at berkano.pair.com wrote: > @> > >(that tossed in for the Sethra-is-a-vishivit faction) > @> > Sethra is a *what*? > @> > @> Sorry. Didn't realize the term was so obscure. "Vishivit" is used > @> for same-species mixed-breeding in multi-species fantasy worlds. > ie, > @> half-human half-elf is a "half-elf," while half-sindar, half-avari > @> would be a "vishivit." > @> > @> - Peter / Yaga > > If Google doesn't know about it, it's pretty damned obscure. > > In fact, the only hits I get on it are in a site owned by somebody > named > Yaga, in the middle of some fiction that this person obviously wrote. > And > wait, what's that in your signature block? Hmmmm. > From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Wed Nov 19 15:27:03 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:27:03 -0500 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031119232703.GC50146@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Wed, Nov 19, 2003 at 02:12:46PM -0500, Talpianna at aol.com wrote: > BTW, am I current on the Jenoine? It is my impression that they are some > sort of race of Cosmic Masters who brought both the ancestors of the > Dragaerans, and the Easterners, to Dragaera to run an experiment on them. Yep, that's pretty much it. > What their > relationship with the gods is, I don't know. 'Antagonistic.' :-) From ReVibe68 at aol.com Wed Nov 19 20:05:05 2003 From: ReVibe68 at aol.com (ReVibe68 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 23:05:05 EST Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: <50.252cfb76.2ced9771@aol.com> In a message dated 11/19/03 11:43:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, mklahn at mac.com writes: > You can re-read Phoenix, but it will help you not the least in the > world in this instance, as the face-cutting scene occurs in _Teckla_, > Its "Herth" not Hearth. However, thank you for getting me the correct book. I don't know why I thought the book was Phoenix. I shall hunt up my copy of Teckla and when I reread the passage in question(if I'm proved wrong) I shall issue ye olde apologie to one and all. {sig starts} Politicians and Diapers have one thing in common. They should be changed regularly and for The Same Reason!!. Truth Is Truth. {sig ends} From davids at kithrup.com Wed Nov 19 21:08:00 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 21:08:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: vishi-whatever In-Reply-To: <20031119172310.95908.qmail@berkano.pair.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 yaga at berkano.pair.com wrote: >*blink* > >I used it because I thought it was a good word, but I could have >sworn I read it somewhere. I'm going to have to dig out my >Similarion now, I just know it. Grrr. > I would not trust the authenticity of anything you found in "Similarion". Of course, you may have mangled some other term as badly as you did "The Silmarillion". Why yes, I am feeling snarky. Examining the excellent site "The Encyclopedia of Arda" http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/ I see no reference to any term even vaguely resembling "vishivit", and looking under the topic of "Elves", nothing to indicate there is even such a concept for elves. It doesn't sound like a term Tolkien would have coined for either Sindarin or Quenya. It sounds vaguely like something from perhaps the Black Speech created by Sauron. From rone at ennui.org Thu Nov 20 09:41:46 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 09:41:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Divine maternity (WAS: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan....) In-Reply-To: <20031119085240.D30183@vallista.dragaera.net> Message-ID: <20031120174146.3804426C45@boredom.ennui.org> Jag writes: Interesting theory, but in Phoenix Guards, we see where Aliera's birth is announced to Adron, and IIRC, he was quite surprised when he heard about it. This may just be Paarfi not knowing all the facts, but it seems to indicate to me that Adron wasn't expecting the demon Goddess to bear him a child. "I *know* i wore a condom." rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Nov 20 10:04:56 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:04:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Divine maternity (WAS: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan....) In-Reply-To: <20031120174146.3804426C45@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20031120174146.3804426C45@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 rone at ennui.org wrote: > Jag writes: > Interesting theory, but in Phoenix Guards, we see where Aliera's birth > is announced to Adron, and IIRC, he was quite surprised when he heard > about it. This may just be Paarfi not knowing all the facts, but it > seems to indicate to me that Adron wasn't expecting the demon Goddess to > bear him a child. > > "I *know* i wore a condom." I was thinking that during Adron's double-take at the end of _TPG_ he was recalling a ritual (which he hadn't understood at the time) where he presented Verra with a vial of his blood (or some other precious bodily fluid). Or maybe not a vial, exactly. Aside, Dragaeran condoms _are_ for prevention of disease only. From Randi128 at aol.com Thu Nov 20 10:49:09 2003 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 13:49:09 EST Subject: Divine maternity (WAS: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan....) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/20/2003 1:05:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU writes: > > "I *know* i wore a condom." > > I was thinking that during Adron's double-take at the end of _TPG_ he was > recalling a ritual (which he hadn't understood at the time) where he > presented Verra with a vial of his blood (or some other precious bodily > fluid). Or maybe not a vial, exactly. > > Aside, Dragaeran condoms _are_ for prevention of disease only. > > > Then who needs condoms when you have the healing wizardry of the orb? Just go bare-back and enjoy the ride. John D. Barbato, O.D. From Talpianna at aol.com Thu Nov 20 12:46:42 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 15:46:42 EST Subject: vishi-whatever Message-ID: <70.351131c3.2cee8232@aol.com> In a message dated 11/19/2003 10:34:56 PM US Mountain Standard Time, davids at kithrup.com writes: I see no reference to any term even vaguely resembling "vishivit", and looking under the topic of "Elves", nothing to indicate there is even such a concept for elves. It doesn't sound like a term Tolkien would have coined for either Sindarin or Quenya. It sounds vaguely like something from perhaps the Black Speech created by Sauron. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<< Tolkien based his Elvish languages on Finnish, whereas "vishivit" sounds more Slavic--could perhaps be from one of those obscure Central Asian dialects believed to be the basis of the Black Speech. I have a friend in Moscow of Russian-Caucasian origin, and she swears the first time she heard the Black Speech in the first film, it sound like something her grandmother would say. Her grandmother's dialect is so obscure I couldn't find it even in The Rosetta Project--possibly because she did not know the proper transliteration of the name into English. tal From agrajag at dragaera.net Thu Nov 20 15:41:16 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 20 Nov 2003 18:41:16 -0500 Subject: Divine maternity (WAS: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan....) In-Reply-To: References: <20031120174146.3804426C45@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <1069371676.2018.1.camel@loiosh> On Thu, 2003-11-20 at 13:04, Philip Hart wrote: > I was thinking that during Adron's double-take at the end of _TPG_ he was > recalling a ritual (which he hadn't understood at the time) where he > presented Verra with a vial of his blood (or some other precious bodily > fluid). Or maybe not a vial, exactly. I always thought Adron was recalling a ritual that he fully understood, but just didn't expect Verra to be able to bear him a child, or to bear him one at all for that matter. I believe its mentioned somewhere that dragaerans only have kids if they want to. There are no accidental births with them. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Nov 20 15:50:47 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 15:50:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Divine maternity (WAS: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan....) In-Reply-To: <1069371676.2018.1.camel@loiosh> References: <20031120174146.3804426C45@boredom.ennui.org> <1069371676.2018.1.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, Jag wrote: > On Thu, 2003-11-20 at 13:04, Philip Hart wrote: > > > I was thinking that during Adron's double-take at the end of _TPG_ he was > > recalling a ritual (which he hadn't understood at the time) where he > > presented Verra with a vial of his blood (or some other precious bodily > > fluid). Or maybe not a vial, exactly. > > I always thought Adron was recalling a ritual that he fully understood, > but just didn't expect Verra to be able to bear him a child, or to bear > him one at all for that matter. I believe its mentioned somewhere that > dragaerans only have kids if they want to. There are no accidental > births with them. Note that Verra's not Dragaeran. Khaavren reportedly reports: "... yet, to judge by Adron's countenance, the emotion he was feeling had less of embarrassment or shame about it and more of excitement or wonder which reaction did not escape Khaavren's notice." Beyond that we're speculating. From davids at kithrup.com Thu Nov 20 15:58:52 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 15:58:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Divine maternity (WAS: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan....) In-Reply-To: <1069371676.2018.1.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: On 20 Nov 2003, Jag wrote: > >I always thought Adron was recalling a ritual that he fully >understood, but just didn't expect Verra to be able to bear him a >child, or to bear him one at all for that matter. I believe its >mentioned somewhere that dragaerans only have kids if they want to. >There are no accidental births with them. > Why is it that no-one remembers that this is Vlad's unreliable interpretation of the existence of contraceptive sorcery? If there are no accidental births, then it would not be possible for half-breeds to exist. In other words, Grita would not exist, and nor would Mellar, nor Mellar's mother. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Nov 20 16:16:40 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 16:16:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: contraception - was Re: Divine maternity In-Reply-To: References: <20031120174146.3804426C45@boredom.ennui.org> <1069371676.2018.1.camel@loiosh> Message-ID: David reminds us that accidents happen. I wonder if reproductive sex might be more fun for Dragaerans for some reason. "C'mon, baby, let's do it _that_ way, it's not risky at all." I wonder if any Dragaerans have Barry White voices... From richard at pikachu.harvard.edu Thu Nov 20 16:49:33 2003 From: richard at pikachu.harvard.edu (Richard Congdon) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 19:49:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: contraception - was Re: Divine maternity In-Reply-To: from "Philip Hart" at Nov 20, 2003 04:16:40 PM Message-ID: <200311210049.hAL0nXv32753@pikachu.harvard.edu> > > I wonder if reproductive sex might be more fun for Dragaerans for some > reason. Why not? It works that way for humans, er, easterners. -- Richard From attjen at gwu.edu Fri Nov 21 10:42:44 2003 From: attjen at gwu.edu (Matthew Jennings) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 13:42:44 -0500 Subject: Agyar *spoilers* Message-ID: <1ec85a1ef216.1ef2161ec85a@gwu.edu> This topic will naturally have spoilers for those who haven't read Agyar. You have been warned... (white space follows) Yesterday I was able to re-read a good deal of Agyar (up to about pg 200 or so. The reference to 3 mustaphas 3 (Forward in all Directions!) still makes me grin. It really should be louder.) Up until this year I had never read another (*for god sakes man, if you haven't read the book stop reading now!*) vampire novel. Then just around halloween this year I read(1)the grandaddy of them all, (well I suppose someone could argue this, but at least a famous uncle) Dracula by Bram Stoker. It made me a little curious about the vampire rules and restrictions that Agyar is subject to. The one rule I picked up for the first time on yesterday's rereading was him having to be invited into someplace before being able to enter. This occurs several times, the most interesting (to me at least) was the offhand way he asks if the coffee-shop is closed before entering. (I read it now as him asking that and the waitress inside nodding her head, or saying something like "yes, come in.") This gives added weight to his meeting with the 'csigany' and her refusal to grant him entry. There are a few others things of course: Jill's 'evangelical' transformation - she put up crucifixes or something similar; Agyar has the ability to create fog, though it seems to exhaust him; He's strong and fast when he needs to be; the shotgun blast only hurts him... but I was wondering if there was somebody more familiar with the vampire mythos who might point out a couple other things I might be missing, in particular what common vampire rules Agyar doesn't follow. I had been a little afraid that knowing too much might detract from the experience, but I should have realized that skzb is too good a writer to let that happen. For instance there is never a point where Agyar says anything specific what he can or can't do. (In fact, there is a point where he mutters about Laura not telling him more about these things...) ____ (1) I still choke a little on saying 'reading' when lately I have actually been listening to books-on-tape for my commute to work. It is definitely a different experience than words-on-paper. What it has allowed me to do is get in some Gaimain (American Gods) and O'Brian (Master & Commander) as well as catching up on other books I've been meaning to read. Which reminds me, anybody know of any of skzb's books being on tape? anything planned? Cheers all! Matt From attjen at gwu.edu Fri Nov 21 12:00:43 2003 From: attjen at gwu.edu (Matthew Jennings) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 15:00:43 -0500 Subject: Agyar *spoilers* Message-ID: <1f988a1fc146.1fc1461f988a@gwu.edu> and of course, I meant Gaiman... not Gaimain.... ugh. From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Nov 21 12:34:30 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:34:30 -0600 Subject: Agyar *spoilers* In-Reply-To: <1ec85a1ef216.1ef2161ec85a@gwu.edu> References: <1ec85a1ef216.1ef2161ec85a@gwu.edu> Message-ID: <20031121203430.GF3774@infodancer.org> On Fri, Nov 21, 2003 at 01:42:44PM -0500, Matthew Jennings wrote: > This topic will naturally have spoilers for those who haven't > read Agyar. You have been warned... (white space follows) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The first thing I need to say is that your line wrap is fucked up. Wrap at between 68-72 characters, please. > but I was wondering if there was somebody more familiar with > the vampire mythos who might point out a couple other things I > might be missing, in particular what common vampire rules Agyar > doesn't follow. Been a long time since my last reread, but here's what comes to mind... I don't note him as having trouble crossing running water, but I also don't notice any points where he is described as doing so. He doesn't demonstrate any ability to turn into a bat or wolf. He doesn't seem to require a coffin filled with his "home earth" or grave dirt. He doesn't seem to take extraordinary measures to avoid sunlight, though that's somewhat a matter of perception; he may simply not be commenting on the measures he takes. But someone who dies if they are out at dawn should have this fact prominently on their mind as dawn approaches and he doesn't seem to. He doesn't have to count grains of rice scattered in his path (Chinese vampires), nor hop (Chinese again?), and as far as we can tell he has a nose (Greek) and is normally visible (don't recall where invisible vampires appear). His head does not detact from his body to feed, trailing guts behind him (also don't recall). I don't recall whether or not he shows up in mirrors. I also don't recall any particular aversion to silver or wood. No information on what would happen if he were staked. No noticable affectation of out-of-date clothing, but I seem to recall a few hints about attitudes and mannerisms. No indications about suitability of animal blood or the consequences of not drinking blood (animal or human). He's not blatantly immortal but doesn't mention his age, so that's unknown. He is clearly not limited to feeding only on his family. I don't recall either way whether there is an aversion to crosses, but I suspect not; similar for garlic. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Nov 21 12:40:07 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 12:40:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Book on Tape... Message-ID: <200311212040.hALKe7g23015@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> > (1) I still choke a little on saying 'reading' when lately I have actually been listening to books-on-tape for my commute to work. It is definitely a different experience than words-on-paper. What it has allowed me to do is get in some Gaimain (American Gods) and O'Brian (Master & Commander) as well as catching up on other books I've been meaning to read. Because of the amount of driving I do, I've listened to many a book on tape-- and love them. (Well, if they're unabbridged, that is. I can't stand it when they tear up a writer's work.:) I haven't seen American Gods, is it on CD? I'll have to order that one.... Any others you can suggest? Gaiman has also produced two of his short stories on CD in "Radio play" fashion that I recommend to anyone who enjoys his work. The two stories are "Murder Mysteries" and "Snow White Apple" (I'm away from the CD and books, and am not positive of the name of the second). Both are excellent. > Which reminds me, anybody know of any of skzb's books being on tape? anything planned? I wish! If I ever see any of Brust's work on CD, I'll believe I have died and gone to Heaven.... Whatdya say, Steve? Want to sit down and read your books out loud? I may never leave my car, but what the hell.... :) Chris "Blind man's night is music to the deaf, and everyone has *two* paths, not one, whence comes tragedy and comedy, forsooth and damn straight, son." - "The Gypsy" - Brust & Lindholm From dusty at sayersnet.com Fri Nov 21 12:50:44 2003 From: dusty at sayersnet.com (J A 'Dusty' Sayers) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 15:50:44 -0500 Subject: Agyar *spoilers* In-Reply-To: <20031121203430.GF3774@infodancer.org> References: <1ec85a1ef216.1ef2161ec85a@gwu.edu> <20031121203430.GF3774@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <3FBE7AA4.2090903@sayersnet.com> Matthew Hunter wrote: >On Fri, Nov 21, 2003 at 01:42:44PM -0500, Matthew Jennings wrote: > > >>This topic will naturally have spoilers for those who haven't >>read Agyar. You have been warned... (white space follows) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > *snip* >He doesn't have to count grains of rice scattered in his path >(Chinese vampires), nor hop (Chinese again?), and as far as we >can tell he has a nose (Greek) and is normally visible (don't >recall where invisible vampires appear). > They don't appear anywhere. That's what makes them invisible. :-) From attjen at gwu.edu Fri Nov 21 13:01:19 2003 From: attjen at gwu.edu (Matthew Jennings) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 16:01:19 -0500 Subject: Agyar *spoilers* Message-ID: <2088b920a30b.20a30b2088b9@gwu.edu> >The first thing I need to say is that your line wrap is fucked >up. Wrap at between 68-72 characters, please. Hmm. didn't realize, but my e-mail doesn't seem to give me any control over wrap. Except for hitting return. Like that. First time I've noticed any problem. (clippage) >He doesn't seem to require a coffin filled with his "home >earth" or grave dirt. But he does have a 'crate'... but that's all he says about it... >He doesn't have to count grains of rice scattered in his path >(Chinese vampires), nor hop (Chinese again?), and as far as we >can tell he has a nose (Greek) and is normally visible (don't wow. never heard any of those. >No noticable affectation of out-of-date clothing, but I seem to >recall a few hints about attitudes and mannerisms. No >indications about suitability of animal blood or the consequences >of not drinking blood (animal or human). He does describe his hunger and his weakness when he can't go out. as for the animal blood, the death of the neighbor's dog doesn't confirm one way or the other. Interesting stuff though. I forgot about the water one, I may have to peruse it again to see if I can find something about that. From attjen at gwu.edu Fri Nov 21 13:30:38 2003 From: attjen at gwu.edu (Matthew Jennings) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 16:30:38 -0500 Subject: Book on Tape... Message-ID: <21000f20bbc2.20bbc221000f@gwu.edu> > Because of the amount of driving I do, I've listened to many a > book on tape-- > and love them. (Well, if they're unabbridged, that is. I can't > stand it when they tear up a writer's work.:) I hate that too. I don't bother if it's abridged. > I haven't seen American Gods, is it on CD? I'll have to order > that one.... Any others you can suggest? Gaiman has also produced > two of his short stories on CD in "Radio play" fashion that I > recommend to anyone who enjoys his work. The two stories are "Murder > Mysteries" and "Snow White Apple" (I'm away from the CD and books, > and am not positive of the name of the second). Both are excellent. American Gods was done by Recorded Books. (recordedbooks.com) Paddy Doyle's Star Called Henry was enjoyable, if you like him (The Commitments, Paddy Clarke Ha Ha Ha, etc), and the O'Brian was good. I've been doing a pretty wide variety, but unfortunately some of my recent ones have been pretty so-so. Unfortunately many of my favorite authors (Brust, Capek, Taibo, etc) aren't on books-on-tape. Maybe you could give me some suggestions? Matt (Hmmm... I've just noticed that the spell check on my e-mail does weird things to word wrap. I'll try and correct that.) From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Nov 21 14:09:54 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:09:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Book on Tape... Message-ID: <200311212209.hALM9sg06730@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Matthew Jennings wrote: > American Gods was done by Recorded Books. (recordedbooks.com) Paddy Doyle's Star Called Henry was enjoyable, if you like him (The Commitments, Paddy Clarke Ha Ha Ha, etc), and the O'Brian was good. I've been doing a pretty wide variety, but unfortunately some of my recent ones have been pretty so-so. Unfortunately many of my favorite authors (Brust, Capek, Taibo, etc) aren't on books-on-tape. Yes, I'll have to order American Gods, and the O'Brian, for that matter. I do wish they produced more good books onto tape/CD. There is a Lovecraft one out there, but it's "read" by computer, I've heard, so I haven't bought it. > Maybe you could give me some suggestions? There is a collection of Poe's work, read by Vincent Price and Basil Rathbone, which I greatly enjoy. I also must confess to enjoying the Harry Potter series (well, at least #s three through five). I blew off reading them for years, then went on a trip to San Diego with my SO (who had read them), and, for the trip down, bought the fourth on CD (it's a long trip). I was quite surprised by how good it was, and the reader, Jim Dale, does an excellent job. (Yeah, guilty little secret. What, you don't have any?) If you're a crazy liberal like me, Michael Moore's _Stupid White Men_ is also on CD (though, IIRC, it is not read by him.) I've listened to some others, but those I recommend, and I'll admit that I haven't bought *that* many, and listen to KPFA enough to satisfy the rest of my driving time. :) Chris (Who's daily commute runs about 2.5-3 hours....;) "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From Talpianna at aol.com Fri Nov 21 14:30:51 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 17:30:51 EST Subject: Agyar *spoilers* Message-ID: <158.281e44e3.2cefec1b@aol.com> DRACULA is indeed the "granddaddy" of vampire novels in the sense of influence; the earlier works weren't anywhere near influential, and Stoker made up a lot of the rules (or at least transmitted them from folklore). There is a very strange book THE VAMPYRE, by a very strange man, Montague Summers, that is an excellent compilation of vampire lore. Mind you, he BELIEVES in it. Vampires have the ability to shapeshift, usually into a bat, a wolf, or a mist (which allows them to enter rooms through keyholes, under doors, usw.). This is probably what you are referring to in AGYAR, a book I have read only once as I didn't really enjoy it. There are a lot of different vampire novels around these days, and even different genres: not only the traditional horror stories, but romances and mysteries with good-guy vampires. One rule you'll find in the new ones, but not, I think in any traditional ones, is that a bitten person does not become a vampire unless there is an exchange of precious bodily fluids--the bitten one has to drink some of the vampire's blood. Another, which was pretty much latent in the traditional stories but has been made explicit in the modern tales, is that the bite of a vampire is not necessarily lethal and bestows intense erotic pleasure. The modern good-guy vampires tend to sip from people they either pick up in clubs (what DO they do about AIDS?) or keep as sort of pets. There is a lot of confusion, especially among the less able authors of paranormal romances, over just what applies to vampires (garlic, holy symbols) and what works on werewolves (silver). Some of the best current ones --- Tanya Huff's Vicki Nelson series, all with "Blood" in the title, featuring Vicki Nelson, a medically-discharged homicide cop turned P.I.; Mike Celluci, her former partner and still sometime lover; and Henry Fitzroy, vampire, author of bodice-ripper romances, and natural son of Henry VII. They are published mainly as dark fantasy but qualify equally as detective stories. Susan Sizemore's "Laws of the Blood" series, featuring the Hunters: the vampire cops who keep the other vampires in line, and their human Companions. Pretty gory, more of a romance theme, but very good, focusing a lot on vampire ethics and politics. Christine Feehan's "Carpathian" series are popular, as are the Anita Blake tales by Laurell K. Hamilton, but those both seem to feature more erotica and bloodshed than I care for so I haven't read them. tal From agrajag at dragaera.net Fri Nov 21 15:11:29 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 21 Nov 2003 18:11:29 -0500 Subject: Book on Tape... In-Reply-To: <200311212040.hALKe7g23015@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200311212040.hALKe7g23015@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <1069456289.2018.1.camel@loiosh> On Fri, 2003-11-21 at 15:40, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > two of his short stories on CD in "Radio play" fashion that I > recommend to anyone who enjoys his work. The two stories are "Murder > Mysteries" and "Snow White Apple" (I'm away from the CD and books, > and am not positive of the name of the second). Both are excellent. The second is "Snow, Glass, Apples", although Chris kinda gave away the original source for the story. I also have those two stories on CD. They're quite good, although I was slightly disappointed to find out they're actually the last two stories in his book of short stories, "Smoke and Mirrors", which I had already read. Jag From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Nov 21 15:12:35 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 15:12:35 -0800 Subject: Agyar *spoilers* References: <1ec85a1ef216.1ef2161ec85a@gwu.edu> Message-ID: <006901c3b084$f3571cd0$fe00000a@steve> > This topic will naturally have spoilers for those who haven't read Agyar. You have been warned... (white space follows) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Up until this year I had never read another (*for god sakes man, if you haven't read the book stop reading now!*) vampire novel. Then just around halloween this year I read(1)the grandaddy of them all, (well I suppose someone could argue this, but at least a famous uncle) Dracula by Bram Stoker. > > It made me a little curious about the vampire rules and restrictions that Agyar is subject to. > I was using the same rules and restrictions Stoker used. Also, just because I thought it was fun, the timeline in AGYAR uses the mirror image of the timeline in DRACULA. From bio_phy at hotmail.com Fri Nov 21 15:20:35 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 17:20:35 -0600 Subject: Agyar *spoilers* Message-ID: Huh. I did not know that. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ Writing is 10% Perspiration and 90% Procrastination >From: "Steven Brust" > > This topic will naturally have spoilers for those who haven't read >Agyar. >You have been warned... (white space follows) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I was using the same rules and restrictions Stoker used. Also, just >because >I thought it was fun, the timeline in AGYAR uses the mirror image of the >timeline in DRACULA. _________________________________________________________________ >From the hottest toys to tips on keeping fit this winter, you?ll find a range of helpful holiday info here. http://special.msn.com/network/happyholidays.armx From Gaertk at aol.com Fri Nov 21 17:24:55 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 20:24:55 -0500 Subject: Agyar *spoilers* Message-ID: <2568409B.6D90A120.00048EA6@aol.com> "J A 'Dusty' Sayers" writes: > Matthew Hunter wrote: > >>> This topic will naturally have spoilers for those who >>> >>> haven't read Agyar. ?You have been warned... (white space >>> follows) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ? ? >>> >> >> ? >> (don't recall where invisible vampires appear). >> > They don't appear anywhere. ?That's what makes them > invisible. ObPratchett: "*You're* not invisible, blood-sucking vampire ghosts!" "Yeah, we're the *visible* kind." --KG From pulmon at comcast.net Fri Nov 21 17:34:57 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 20:34:57 -0500 Subject: Books on tape In-Reply-To: <1ec85a1ef216.1ef2161ec85a@gwu.edu> References: <1ec85a1ef216.1ef2161ec85a@gwu.edu> Message-ID: <14BD7FD1-1C8C-11D8-B4A9-0003938F1608@comcast.net> I have a question about the "books on tape" experience. You noted that it is different from "words on paper". I have tried two different "on tape" experiences: Learning Mandarin and continuing medical education. The first was reasonably successful. I got halfway through the program before I got bored, but I learned pretty well, including accent and intonation (per my Mandarin-speaking friends). The second was a dismal failure. I listened to the 30 minute tape at least 20 times and still don't know much about the role of neuraminidase inhibitors in the treatment of influenza. The main difference between the two is interaction. The language tapes required me to stop the tape and repeat, and to speak along with the tape. I was able to focus on the material and never got into an accident. The CME tape, on the other hand, simply involved listening. Normally I learn well in talks. With this, however, I constantly lost my train of thought and my attention would wander from the tape to the road and back. I suppose that I could learn from a tape if I listened to it in a room, along with visual aids, but in a car...never! So how would I do with books on tape? How can anyone follow plot, characters, etc., when only a fraction of your consciousness is focused on the tape? When I read, I shut out the world and concentrate on the book. When I drive I sure as heck can't do that!!! Any thoughts? Thanks, Ken From tsarren at alyra.org Fri Nov 21 19:06:12 2003 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Tsarren) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 21:06:12 -0600 Subject: Books on tape In-Reply-To: <14BD7FD1-1C8C-11D8-B4A9-0003938F1608@comcast.net> References: <1ec85a1ef216.1ef2161ec85a@gwu.edu> <14BD7FD1-1C8C-11D8-B4A9-0003938F1608@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20031122030612.GL4483@Durandal> On Fri, Nov 21, 2003 at 08:34:57PM -0500, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > The main difference between the two is interaction. The language tapes > required me to stop the tape and repeat, and to speak along with the > tape. I was able to focus on the material and never got into an > accident. The CME tape, on the other hand, simply involved listening. > Normally I learn well in talks. With this, however, I constantly lost > my train of thought and my attention would wander from the tape to the > road and back. > > I suppose that I could learn from a tape if I listened to it in a room, > along with visual aids, but in a car...never! > > So how would I do with books on tape? How can anyone follow plot, > characters, etc., when only a fraction of your consciousness is focused > on the tape? When I read, I shut out the world and concentrate on the > book. When I drive I sure as heck can't do that!!! > > Any thoughts? > I'm the same way when I read, with the caveats that 1) any out-of-the-ordinary noise will catch my attention, and 2) I can both listen to (but not participate in) a nearby conversation and read at the same time - though my reading speed is roughly halved, and the movie in my head that goes along with the book is attenuated. With passive listening, however, I get utterly insanely bored most of the time, even if it is in a classroom with visual aids. If, however, I'm doing something physical or spatial at the same time, such as driving, knitting chainmaille, sketching, or playing minesweeper, my brain happily munches on both inputs/tasks at the same time and I cease becoming bored. Driving just doesn't use the same part of my consciousness as passive listening. I'm sure there are other people out there who are the same, otherwise books on tape wouldn't sell. ;) Anon, Kat From usagigoya at hotmail.com Sat Nov 22 06:47:01 2003 From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 14:47:01 +0000 Subject: Divine maternity (WAS: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan....) Message-ID: Wasn't there a scene in Brokedown Palace where King Lazlo's rituals to Verra are descibed as being of a sexual nature? Bridgette (spelling) climbed up to Lazlo's off limits tower and walked in on him in the middle of some ritual... >From: Philip Hart >To: Jag >CC: SKZB List >Subject: Re: Divine maternity (WAS: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan....) >Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 15:50:47 -0800 (PST) > > > >On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, Jag wrote: > > > On Thu, 2003-11-20 at 13:04, Philip Hart wrote: > > > > > I was thinking that during Adron's double-take at the end of _TPG_ he >was > > > recalling a ritual (which he hadn't understood at the time) where he > > > presented Verra with a vial of his blood (or some other precious >bodily > > > fluid). Or maybe not a vial, exactly. > > > > I always thought Adron was recalling a ritual that he fully understood, > > but just didn't expect Verra to be able to bear him a child, or to bear > > him one at all for that matter. I believe its mentioned somewhere that > > dragaerans only have kids if they want to. There are no accidental > > births with them. > > >Note that Verra's not Dragaeran. > >Khaavren reportedly reports: > >"... yet, to judge by Adron's countenance, the emotion he was feeling had >less of embarrassment or shame about it and more of excitement or wonder >which reaction did not escape Khaavren's notice." > >Beyond that we're speculating. > _________________________________________________________________ online games and music with a high-speed Internet connection! Prices start at less than $1 a day average. https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.) From sabia at mojoworld.net Sat Nov 22 09:04:21 2003 From: sabia at mojoworld.net (sabia at mojoworld.net) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 09:04:21 -0800 Subject: Divine maternity (WAS: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan....) Message-ID: <5396916D8B3BD44796A5A5EAEA93AEDF011E77@deathstar.internal.mojoworld.net> Yah. Something like Lazlo was naked in bed (his own, IIRC. B was his mistress and access to his bedroom). B saw Verra's face in a glowing sphere hovering over him. -Sabia -----Original Message----- From: Steve Hubbell [mailto:usagigoya at hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 6:47 AM To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: Divine maternity (WAS: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan....) Wasn't there a scene in Brokedown Palace where King Lazlo's rituals to Verra are descibed as being of a sexual nature? Bridgette (spelling) climbed up to Lazlo's off limits tower and walked in on him in the middle of some ritual... From kknolte at ecity.net Sat Nov 22 08:59:57 2003 From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 17:59:57 +0100 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... References: Message-ID: <3FBF9609.7604@ecity.net> Mark A Mandel wrote: > #> And I suspect she holds it in fee simple absolute, not owing rents or > #> reliefs, as a reward for past services to the Empire. > # > #In all this discussion, people keep assuming that SL "holds" Dzur Mountain. > # > #I have a sneaking suspicion that the reverse is more nearly true. > > I think it's reciprocal, and that in some important sense SL *is* Dzur > Mountain. Could androids be called 'undead'? If so, 1) Dzur Mountain is Dragaera's version of Skynet. 2) 'Sethra' is an android into which Skynet occasionally downloads parts of its memory bank into for easier interfacing with Gods and Dragaerans, and 'Iceflame' (part of Dzur Mountain to hand) is actually a modem to allow Skynet to download/reference more data into the android if needed, and therefore: 3) "The Final Contract" will be the story of Vlad fighting the Jenoine's Terminator. Karen From mam at theworld.com Sun Nov 23 05:37:59 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 08:37:59 -0500 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: <3FBF9609.7604@ecity.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Nov 2003, K Kuhn wrote: #Could androids be called 'undead'? If so, #1) Dzur Mountain is Dragaera's version of Skynet. # #2) 'Sethra' is an android into which Skynet occasionally downloads parts Please excuse my ignorance: "Skynet"? -- Mark A. Mandel From davids at kithrup.com Sun Nov 23 06:25:56 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 06:25:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Nov 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Sat, 22 Nov 2003, K Kuhn wrote: > >#Could androids be called 'undead'? If so, >#1) Dzur Mountain is Dragaera's version of Skynet. ># >#2) 'Sethra' is an android into which Skynet occasionally downloads parts > >Please excuse my ignorance: "Skynet"? > The Terminator movies, standing on one leg: Ther Terminators are metallic humanoid cyborgs that march around killing people. They can also have a synthetic skin wrapped around them which makes them look like Arnold Schwartznegger (series T-101 model T-800), Robert Patrick (T-1000), or Kristanna Loken (T-X) (althogh the last two models can theoretically look like anyone), which theoretically allows them to infitrate human encampents to target specific humans (although why the humans don't use metal detectors has never been explained). Skynet is the computer Overmind that directs all of the subsidiary battle hardware, and in fact is largely responsible for the creation of most of it. It has decided it doesn't like humans, and wishes to destroy or subjugate all of them. John Connor is the leader of the human resistance. In the first movie, the earliest model Terminator is sent back through time to kill John Connor's mother, Sarah Connor. A human resistance fighter is sent back in time to help John Connor's mother. As you might guess, he ends up impregnating her with the kid who will turn out to be John Connor. For more information, see: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088247/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0103064/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0181852/ From bertowud at cox.net Sun Nov 23 06:40:56 2003 From: bertowud at cox.net (Robert Wood) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 9:40:56 -0500 Subject: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan.... Message-ID: <20031123144055.GJIP29834.lakemtao05.cox.net@smtp.central.cox.net> > From: Mark A Mandel > Please excuse my ignorance: "Skynet"? > > -- Mark A. Mandel It's the computer system that controls the world in the furture in the Terminator movies. Robert From casca913 at gbronline.com Sun Nov 23 09:17:45 2003 From: casca913 at gbronline.com (Charlie Smith) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 11:17:45 -0600 Subject: Book on Tape... References: <200311212040.hALKe7g23015@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <003f01c3b1e5$b6b72970$03570945@pentium4> > > Because of the amount of driving I do, I've listened to many a book on tape-- > and love them. (Well, if they're unabbridged, that is. I can't > stand it when they tear up a writer's work.:) I whole heartedly agree. Abrigement is the work of mischevious evil demons! There are so many good books out there that are killed by that. When LoTR came out to the movies year before last I went out and was lucky enough to get a great deal on The Fellowship of the Ring on CD and listened to it multiple times while traveling between Houston and Dallas. On the opposite hand I found a book on tape for Enders Game at the library on year and decided that would be a great book to listen to. A few minutes into it I realized "Hey, this isn't right." and looked in the case and saw it was only two CDs. If I had bought that one I would have been back at the store faster then Rosie O'Donnell on a gallon of Ice Cream. From casca913 at gbronline.com Sun Nov 23 10:01:03 2003 From: casca913 at gbronline.com (Charlie Smith) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 12:01:03 -0600 Subject: Agyar *spoilers* References: <158.281e44e3.2cefec1b@aol.com> Message-ID: <005001c3b1eb$c3628330$03570945@pentium4> > Some of the best current ones --- Tanya Huff's Vicki Nelson series, all with > "Blood" in the title, featuring Vicki Nelson, a medically-discharged homicide > cop turned P.I.; Mike Celluci, her former partner and still sometime lover; > and Henry Fitzroy, vampire, author of bodice-ripper romances, and natural son > of Henry VII. They are published mainly as dark fantasy but qualify equally as > detective stories. > > Susan Sizemore's "Laws of the Blood" series, featuring the Hunters: the > vampire cops who keep the other vampires in line, and their human Companions. > Pretty gory, more of a romance theme, but very good, focusing a lot on vampire > ethics and politics. > > Christine Feehan's "Carpathian" series are popular, as are the Anita Blake > tales by Laurell K. Hamilton, but those both seem to feature more erotica and > bloodshed than I care for so I haven't read them. > > tal > Another favorite vampire author of mine, although I admit that I don't get into that genre of fiction very often, is P.N. (Patricia Nead) Elrod. She has written several vampire series, but to my disappointment has problems finishing them before moving onto a new idea for a book. All of her books revolve around historical settings. Another interesting thing in most of her books is that she treats Vampirism like a virus. You have a very low chance, like 1 in 500,000 of a chance of becoming a vampire and it can lay dormant until you die which is when you find out "I'm not dead yet!" (visions of Monty Python....). In The Vampire Files series a P.I. in 1930s Chicago(I believe) attempting to solve crimes. A fairly solid set of books which on writing the message I find that she has renewed interest and is even now writing her 10th book for the series. I'll have to start reading it again since I haven't read these books since she left off at book four. The next series she wrote was the Jonathon Bartlett series. I actually preferred this one with it's setting in Revolutionary War America. It is written in the people's perspective where the yond landowner's son goes off to England to college and gets bitten by a "romantic interest" but doesn't find himself to be a vampire till he goes back home when the war starts. This is one of the sets that she "lost interest" in and stopped on book 4. An actual novel, she wrote Quincy Morris, Vampire fairly recently. This story takes a rough and tumble Texan, Quincy, and transforms the unwitting Western genre Texan with his trusty Bowie knife into an undead. While he tries to return to the life he once led with his friends he finds an obstacle in that the infamous Van Helsing has convinced them that the only good vampire is a dead vampire. An earlier novel is The Keeper of the King where a young Middle Ages warrior is fatally wounded in battle. To give him a chance to live she gives him a new chance at life... or unlife. She also gives him a meaning to his existence. To protect the King of England at all costs. However, when does this job really end? The book continues to the 1990s (present day for the book) where the yond man is still engaging in his duty. In collaboration with the vampire from the television show "Forever Knight" >from a few years back, Nigel Bennett, she combines in the book, His Father's Son. Here she takes Arthurian legend and combines it with her a vampire story. Richard (Sir Lancelot) is now a "Security Specialist" in present day Canada where he gets mixed up with some drug runners and a former lover of his who later is shot along with her daughters. He then goes on a spree of vengeance to take out the offending parties. I have also heard that she did a few books in the Ravenloft series but have had no interest in reading those. --- Charlie Smith --- "The adding of a single thread changes the garment." --- Jhereg, Ch. 16, pg. 143 From Talpianna at aol.com Mon Nov 24 20:44:39 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:44:39 EST Subject: Fwd: medieval medical school Message-ID: Subject: The Top 15 Things Overheard at Medieval Medical School 15> "Today class, let's open our convicted criminals to rib two." 14> "Don't bite it! You need to swallow it alive for it to work!" 13> "They should translate these obscure medical terms into something easy, like Latin." 12> "It may seem like pointless superstition to you youngsters, but I haven't washed these hands since my first delivery 37 years ago." 11> "What do you mean we're out of wild boar snout?!?" 10> "Headache? Take two spotted salamanders and call me in the morning." 9> "Arthur, Schmarthur. What kind of insurance dost thou have?" 8> "Verily, it would seem our instructor Master Bush knoweth not the name of *any* disease!" 7> "Goodwoman Thurmond, to you a son is born. 'Strom' shall he be called." 6> "Put down that dwarf and hand me the pliers!" 5> "Now, remove the speculum from the fire and insert it thusly..." 4> "No, no, push that yellow stuff back in. That's pus from the *good* fairy!" 3> "Good knight, thy skill at treating boils is unsurpassed in all the kingdom! Thou shalt be called 'Sir Lance-a-lot'." 2> "Come now Hypoglycies, how can too much sugar possibly be bad for you?" and Topfive.com's Number 1 Thing Overheard at Medieval Medical School... 1> "Gesundheit! Now be sure to wipe that off his liver." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20031124/c4931523/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Ed Meskys" Subject: medieval medical school Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 17:06:31 -0500 Size: 3008 Url: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20031124/c4931523/attachment.mht From Talpianna at aol.com Tue Nov 25 13:29:44 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:29:44 EST Subject: medieval medical school Message-ID: <64.37af263e.2cf523c8@aol.com> In a message dated 11/25/2003 8:32:19 AM US Mountain Standard Time, jacquiand2labs at webryders.com writes: :-D :-P Latin! easy! why couldn't they translate the terms into something truly easy - maybe a mathematical model with dosing described by differential equations? I'll meet you over by the table.... tal From Talpianna at aol.com Tue Nov 25 13:31:44 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:31:44 EST Subject: medieval medical school Message-ID: <4d.3810b3ed.2cf52440@aol.com> In a message dated 11/25/2003 9:59:55 AM US Mountain Standard Time, caraed at mindspring.com writes: Nell!!!!!! Down, girl, down. Don't beat Jacqui's head. We all know it's already suffered its share of beating -- why else would she resort to equations that no normal person can understand?? Did any of you catch the Monday night Headlines on The Tonight Show? "Squirrel in wheelchair, free to good home." See what you've done to our poor Nell, Jacqui? tal From mklahn at mac.com Tue Nov 25 13:40:48 2003 From: mklahn at mac.com (Matthew Klahn) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:40:48 -0600 Subject: medieval medical school In-Reply-To: <4d.3810b3ed.2cf52440@aol.com> References: <4d.3810b3ed.2cf52440@aol.com> Message-ID: <0878E27D-1F90-11D8-9A10-000393D1260C@mac.com> On Nov 25, 2003, at 15:31 , Talpianna at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/25/2003 9:59:55 AM US Mountain Standard Time, > caraed at mindspring.com writes: > Nell!!!!!! Down, girl, down. Don't beat Jacqui's head. We all know > it's > already suffered its share of beating -- why else would she resort to > equations > that no normal person can understand?? > Did any of you catch the Monday night Headlines on The Tonight Show? > "Squirrel in wheelchair, free to good home." > > See what you've done to our poor Nell, Jacqui? > > tal Ok, I'm not sure here what's going on. I realize that the medieval medical list may have been tangentially related to Dragaera, but perhaps only tangentially. Now, however, we're getting forwards from people that I hesitate to say are at all related to the Dragaera list, and who I have (personally) no idea about. While I do see that this list frequently gets off-topic, I (myself) don't really want to get a bunch of emails that have little to nothing to do with the main thread of discussion for the mailing list that I signed up for, namely Brust's writings (overall) and the Dragaera books (in particular). I guess what I wonder at is this: is this going to be a frequent occurrence? Because, if so, then I may just wish to read the archives, I guess... -- Matthew S. Klahn Software Architect, CodeTek Studios, Inc. http://www.codetek.com From attjen at gwu.edu Tue Nov 25 14:41:17 2003 From: attjen at gwu.edu (Matthew Jennings) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:41:17 -0500 Subject: Agyar *spoilers* Message-ID: <1b4e651b6bdf.1b6bdf1b4e65@gwu.edu> > > This topic will naturally have spoilers for those who haven't > read Agyar. > You have been warned... (white space follows) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was using the same rules and restrictions Stoker used. Also, > just because > I thought it was fun, the timeline in AGYAR uses the mirror image > of the > timeline in DRACULA. We've weasled it out of you at last have we? ah ha ha HA... Ah HA HAH HAH! Now I have yet another reason to read it again. (and am I reading you correctly in that mirror image means "begins when the other ends, ends when the other begins"? I had actually thought about this, but hadn't got far enough in to comment on it...) From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Nov 25 16:30:44 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:30:44 -0800 Subject: Agyar *spoilers* References: <1b4e651b6bdf.1b6bdf1b4e65@gwu.edu> Message-ID: <002601c3b3b4$8a4b4620$fe00000a@steve> > > > This topic will naturally have spoilers for those who haven't > > read Agyar. > > You have been warned... (white space follows) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was using the same rules and restrictions Stoker used. Also, > > just because > > I thought it was fun, the timeline in AGYAR uses the mirror image > > of the > > timeline in DRACULA. > > We've weasled it out of you at last have we? ah ha ha HA... Ah HA HAH HAH! > > Now I have yet another reason to read it again. (and am I reading you correctly in that mirror image means "begins when the other ends, ends when the other begins"? I had actually thought about this, but hadn't got far enough in to comment on it...) > Yes, that what I meant. And if you want to get really anal, figure out the year it takes place (I'm not telling, but just as a vague hint, it was the year I wrote it) then work out where the moon is at each entry, and note how Jack is effected by the phases of the moon. God, I'm just so clever I almost can't stand it. Hmmm....no, maybe "clever" isn't the word I'm looking for there. From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Nov 25 17:29:28 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 25 Nov 2003 19:29:28 -0600 Subject: Agyar *spoilers* In-Reply-To: <002601c3b3b4$8a4b4620$fe00000a@steve> References: <1b4e651b6bdf.1b6bdf1b4e65@gwu.edu> <002601c3b3b4$8a4b4620$fe00000a@steve> Message-ID: "Steven Brust" writes: > God, I'm just so clever I almost can't stand it. > > Hmmm....no, maybe "clever" isn't the word I'm looking for there. I believe the phrase is "having too much fun". -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Nov 25 17:43:56 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:43:56 -0800 Subject: Agyar *spoilers* References: <1b4e651b6bdf.1b6bdf1b4e65@gwu.edu><002601c3b3b4$8a4b4620$fe00000a@steve> Message-ID: <001901c3b3be$c17786e0$fe00000a@steve> > "Steven Brust" writes: > > > God, I'm just so clever I almost can't stand it. > > > > Hmmm....no, maybe "clever" isn't the word I'm looking for there. > > I believe the phrase is "having too much fun". > -- Guilty as charged. From bonham15 at cox.net Wed Nov 26 15:45:17 2003 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:45:17 -0600 Subject: Agyar *spoilers* References: <1b4e651b6bdf.1b6bdf1b4e65@gwu.edu><002601c3b3b4$8a4b4620$fe00000a@steve> <001901c3b3be$c17786e0$fe00000a@steve> Message-ID: <003101c3b477$587eaab0$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> what was it vlad called morollan? a supericilious jonglour? ;) don't have the book handy, feel free to hang me if i quoted it wrong. andy ps obviously just kidding pps maybe -_^ > > > > "Steven Brust" writes: > > > > > God, I'm just so clever I almost can't stand it. > > > > > > Hmmm....no, maybe "clever" isn't the word I'm looking for there. > > > > I believe the phrase is "having too much fun". > > -- > > Guilty as charged. > > From Talpianna at aol.com Wed Nov 26 19:23:54 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 22:23:54 EST Subject: Defense of genre fiction--re: Stephen King's National Book Award (OT ) Message-ID: <44.38815148.2cf6c84a@aol.com> Monday, Nov. 17, 2003 Long Live the King Is this the end of Western literature as we know it? Let's hope so! By LEV GROSSMAN At a Marriott Hotel in New York City this week, the National Book Foundation plans to hand Stephen King its Medal for Distinguished Contribution to American Letters. Previous recipients of the medal include Saul Bellow, Philip Roth, Arthur Miller and Toni Morrison, which makes King, an unrepentant horror monger, a controversial choice, to say the least. Shakespeare scholar and self-appointed canonmaker Harold Bloom called it a "terrible mistake" and added that King was an "immensely inadequate writer." News of King's crowning met with predictable sneers from the literary snobs, along with a few weak and equally predictable cheers from the reverse snobs. But both sides are kind of missing the point, which is that we ? that is, we readers ? have an odd and deeply ingrained habit of dividing books into two mutually exclusive heaps, one high and literary and one low and trashy, and we should stop it. Books aren't high or low. They're just good or bad. Take a look at that second heap, the trashy one, and you'll notice something interesting: it's very, very large. Ipsos BookTrends is a service that tracks consumer book purchases ? numbers that, unlike sales figures for albums or movie tickets, are rarely seen outside the industry. According to Ipsos, 34% of all novels sold in the U.S. this year were romance novels. Six percent were fantasy and science fiction, and 19% were mysteries and thrillers. Only 25% fell under "general fiction," the category that includes the even smaller subdivision of literary novels: your Jonathan Franzens, your David Foster Wallaces, your E. Annie Proulxs. Statistically speaking, the literary novel is a small part of a very big picture. How did America's reading habits become so radically polarized, so prissily puritanical, that at best a quarter of what people read (or at least what they buy) qualifies as legitimate literature? It hasn't always been like this. As recently as the mid ? 19th century, historians of the novel tell us, there was only one heap. Dickens wrote best-selling novels, but they weren't considered "commercial" or "popular" or "your-euphemism-here." They were just novels. No one looked down on Scott and Tennyson and Stowe for being wildly successful. No one got all embarrassed when they were caught reading the new Edgar Allan Poe over lunch. But by the time modernism kicked in, in the early part of the 20th century, things had changed. The year 1922 saw the publication of both T.S. Eliot's The Waste Land and James Joyce's Ulysses, two of the greatest literary works in Western history, but also two of the first that are impossible to understand without (and, arguably, with) compendious footnotes and critical apparatuses. All of a sudden you knew something was literary because it was difficult. You either got it or you didn't, and if you didn't, you didn't admit it. As much as Americans like to be democratic in our politics, we have become aristocratic in our aesthetics. This was something strange and new. Reading literature and having a damn good time had become quietly but decidedly uncoupled. And yet we think of this state of affairs as normal, and it has left us with a set of perverse biases that persist to this day. We have a high tolerance for boredom and difficulty. We praise rich, complex, lyrical prose, but we don't really appreciate the pleasures of a well-paced, gracefully structured plot. Or, worse, we appreciate them, but we are embarrassed about it. Somewhere along the line, we learned to associate the deliciousness of a cracking good yarn ? that ineffable sense of things falling into place and connecting with one another in an accelerating, exhilarating cascade ? with shame, as if literature shouldn't be this much fun, and if it is, it isn't literature. I'm sure some psychiatrist somewhere has a name for associating pleasure with shame, but I think we can all agree that it's a little sick. As it happens, I don't much care for Stephen King's books. Maybe I'm out of touch with my dark side, but I'd swap his oeuvre for J.K. Rowling's in a magic moment, or George R.R. Martin's for that matter. But I applaud the National Book Foundation's choice, and I hope it encourages the small but determined school of writers who are carefully, lovingly grafting the prose craft of the literary heap onto the sinewy, satisfying plots of the trashy one to produce hybrid novels that offer the pleasures of both. Writers like Donna Tartt and Alice Sebold, Neal Stephenson and Iain Banks, Jonathan Lethem and Margaret Atwood, writers whose work will most likely define ? more than anything by brilliant mandarins like Wallace or Franzen ? what will be known to later generations as the 21st century novel. The next literary wave will come not from above but >from below, from the foil-covered, embossed-lettered paperbacks in the drugstore racks. Stay tuned. Keep reading. The revolution will not be canonized. Copyright ? 2003 Time Inc. All rights reserved. Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited. Privacy Policy From Talpianna at aol.com Wed Nov 26 21:24:48 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 00:24:48 EST Subject: Agyar *spoilers* Message-ID: <1df.1458c5ee.2cf6e4a0@aol.com> In a message dated 11/26/2003 4:46:28 PM US Mountain Standard Time, bonham15 at cox.net writes: "Steven Brust" writes: > > > > > God, I'm just so clever I almost can't stand it. > > > > > > Hmmm....no, maybe "clever" isn't the word I'm looking for there. > > > > I believe the phrase is "having too much fun". > > -- XXXXXXXXXXXXEND OF QUOTEXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX How about "an incarnation of all the virtues laboring under a misapprehension"? NO ONE is going to get that quote. Heh heh heh heh heh..... tal From lady_gh0stw0lf at yahoo.com Thu Nov 27 23:34:52 2003 From: lady_gh0stw0lf at yahoo.com (Angie Jackson) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 23:34:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Out of the loop Message-ID: <20031128073452.86939.qmail@web10704.mail.yahoo.com> Hey guys, can one of you be kind enough to fill me in on the new Vlad book? Oh, and some of ya didn't seem to know about this so check it and have fun. http://www.noside.com/catalog/CatalogAlbum_01.asp?Album_ID=7 -Lady Ghost --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now From davids at kithrup.com Fri Nov 28 06:48:31 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 06:48:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Out of the loop In-Reply-To: <20031128073452.86939.qmail@web10704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, Angie Jackson wrote: >Hey guys, can one of you be kind enough to fill me in on the new Vlad >book? > Er, it's being written? Oh, and it either takes place before /Issola/ or after /Issola/. And it's very nearly certain to not be /The Final Contract/. If Steve wants guaranteed sales of 50 hardcover copies and 50 softcover copies, he'll title it /Hawk/ and make sure that Daymar has a prominent part. But he might want to write something else, which will disappoint MJ. So it might also be /Dzur/ or /Chreotha/ or /Tiassa/ or /Lyorn/ or /Iorich/ or /Jhegaala/ or /Vallista/ or /Tsalmoth/. Now you know as much as we do. From alexx at panix.com Fri Nov 28 08:08:32 2003 From: alexx at panix.com (Alexx Kay) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 11:08:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Out of the loop In-Reply-To: from "David Silberstein" at Nov 28, 2003 06:48:31 AM Message-ID: <200311281608.hASG8WD12914@panix3.panix.com> > On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, Angie Jackson wrote: > > >Hey guys, can one of you be kind enough to fill me in on the new Vlad > >book? > > Er, it's being written? > > Oh, and it either takes place before /Issola/ or after /Issola/. I think that's assuming too much, especially after _Dragon_, which took place both before and after _Yendi_. Heck, I wouldn't put it past Steve to throw in a "during", just to prove he could... Alexx Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers. alexx at carolingiaSPAMBL@CK.org http://www.panix.com/~alexx "If it's against state law, it's generally considered a breach of Etiquette." -- Ms. Manners From davids at kithrup.com Fri Nov 28 08:31:40 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 08:31:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Out of the loop In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: >On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, Angie Jackson wrote: > >>Hey guys, can one of you be kind enough to fill me in on the new Vlad >>book? >> > >Er, it's being written? [snip] >Now you know as much as we do. > For values of "we" which do not include Steve Brust. Steve probably knows more than we do. Probably. Heck, let's ask him, and see if he'll tell us (he might not, you see): Hey Steve! Er, that is: Most noble and prolific historian of Dragaera, Mr. Brust: Would you deign to do us the honor of disclosing unto our humble list the title of the latest volume of the adventures of the Jhereg and Easterner Vlad Taltos, and any more information which might be apropos? If you feel unwilling to do so for the reason of providing more of a surprise at a later date, will you at least condescend to inform us whether in fact have these details in mind, or are still sketching the bare skeleton of the framework, and thus are still pondering the issue? From mklahn at mac.com Fri Nov 28 08:47:39 2003 From: mklahn at mac.com (Matthew Klahn) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:47:39 -0600 Subject: Out of the loop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <93C0B8C0-21C2-11D8-9A10-000393D1260C@mac.com> On Nov 28, 2003, at 10:31 , David Silberstein wrote: > On Fri, 28 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > >> On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, Angie Jackson wrote: >> >>> Hey guys, can one of you be kind enough to fill me in on the new Vlad >>> book? >>> >> >> Er, it's being written? > This is also an assumption, though well founded. As Mr. Brust hasn't been *ahem* updating his weblog, we... *I* don't really have more recent information than: "As soon as I get Emacs working, I can start writing the new Vlad novel." It would be interesting to read a novel that takes place _during_ _Issola_, maybe from the point of view of... I don't know... Verra or the chunk of Trellanstone. At any rate, I'm sure Mr. Brust could swing it... somehow. Also, the name being one of the Great Houses is also an assumption, as there is precedence in _Taltos_ of using some other non-House name as the title of one of the books. So, it could be _Kieron_, about the return of Kieron the Conquerer, come to whoop up on Aliera for giving his sword away, _Verra_, _e'Drien_, etc. Although _Issola_ was about the Jenoine, there could, without stretching the imagination too far, even been a book titled _Jenoine_, or even _Serioli_. Brust is good enough at improvisation that he could swing any of these, I would guess. -- Matthew S. Klahn Software Architect, CodeTek Studios, Inc. http://www.codetek.com From davids at kithrup.com Fri Nov 28 08:57:24 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 08:57:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Out of the loop In-Reply-To: <93C0B8C0-21C2-11D8-9A10-000393D1260C@mac.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Nov 2003, Matthew Klahn wrote: > >Also, the name being one of the Great Houses is also an assumption, as >there is precedence in _Taltos_ of using some other non-House name as >the title of one of the books. Well, while it is certainly possible that Mr. Brust will change his mind, the last word was there will be 19 Vlad books. Of these, 17 have, or will have, a title consisting of a House name, and the other 2 are /Taltos/ (already written) and /The Final Contract/ (yet to be written). And That, as I understand things, is That. So your other speculative titles, while possible, are not particularly likely. From davids at kithrup.com Fri Nov 28 09:01:26 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 09:01:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Out of the loop In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: >Well, while it is certainly possible that Mr. Brust will change his >mind, the last word was there will be 19 Vlad books. And one more qualifier: There will be 19 *if* he doesn't get tired of the whole thing. Or other impediments to writing occur. From mklahn at mac.com Fri Nov 28 09:08:14 2003 From: mklahn at mac.com (Matthew Klahn) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 11:08:14 -0600 Subject: Out of the loop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <74200BA8-21C5-11D8-9A10-000393D1260C@mac.com> On Nov 28, 2003, at 11:01 , David Silberstein wrote: > On Fri, 28 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > >> Well, while it is certainly possible that Mr. Brust will change his >> mind, the last word was there will be 19 Vlad books. > > And one more qualifier: There will be 19 *if* he doesn't get tired of > the whole thing. Or other impediments to writing occur. Thanks for the information. I guess I should scan the archives before I post... -- Matthew S. Klahn Software Architect, CodeTek Studios, Inc. http://www.codetek.com From lister at insaneninjahero.com Fri Nov 28 09:16:16 2003 From: lister at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 09:16:16 -0800 Subject: Out of the loop In-Reply-To: <74200BA8-21C5-11D8-9A10-000393D1260C@mac.com> References: <74200BA8-21C5-11D8-9A10-000393D1260C@mac.com> Message-ID: <3FC782E0.2020507@insaneninjahero.com> Matthew Klahn wrote: > > On Nov 28, 2003, at 11:01 , David Silberstein wrote: > >> On Fri, 28 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: >> >>> Well, while it is certainly possible that Mr. Brust will change his >>> mind, the last word was there will be 19 Vlad books. >> >> >> And one more qualifier: There will be 19 *if* he doesn't get tired of >> the whole thing. Or other impediments to writing occur. > > > Thanks for the information. I guess I should scan the archives before I > post... > There is no "scanning" of this list's archives. There is indepth research, but there is no scanning... > -- > Matthew S. Klahn > Software Architect, CodeTek Studios, Inc. > http://www.codetek.com > > > From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Nov 28 10:31:32 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:31:32 -0800 Subject: Out of the loop References: Message-ID: <004301c3b5dd$da1401d0$fe00000a@steve> > Would you deign to do us the honor of disclosing unto our humble list > the title of the latest volume of the adventures of the Jhereg and > Easterner Vlad Taltos, and any more information which might be > apropos? > Still pondering, but, very tentatively, the title is _TIASSA_. I'm pretty sure this one will pick up immediately after ISSOLA. Like, within hours. But then, I might change all that if I think of something cooler. From rone at ennui.org Fri Nov 28 10:43:49 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:43:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Out of the loop In-Reply-To: <004301c3b5dd$da1401d0$fe00000a@steve> Message-ID: <20031128184349.2A75B26C34@boredom.ennui.org> Steven Brust writes: Still pondering, but, very tentatively, the title is _TIASSA_. I'm pretty sure this one will pick up immediately after ISSOLA. Like, within hours. But then, I might change all that if I think of something cooler. As always, you spoil us. Hope all of you had a thankful and filling Thanksgiving. rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From fish at yes.devclue.com Fri Nov 28 11:01:22 2003 From: fish at yes.devclue.com (Fish Flowers) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 11:01:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Out of the loop In-Reply-To: <004301c3b5dd$da1401d0$fe00000a@steve> Message-ID: <20031128110051.X4743-100000@yes.devclue.com> On Fri, 28 Nov 2003, Steven Brust wrote: > But then, I might change all that if I think of something cooler. "And now, I'm going to tell you something really cool." Fish. From greyw01f at hotmail.com Fri Nov 28 12:33:00 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 20:33:00 +0000 Subject: Out of the loop Message-ID: It is positively amazing how so little information can send such a thrill through me...I cannot WAIT for this novel. And yet, I must be patient, because talent and dare I say it, genius, cannot be rushed! Woe is me! Ah well, I'll solace myself with the SC eds of LOCB which I still haven't read and Sethra as well. I *really* wanna see Vlad kick some ass with Godslayer---or even just have Vlad kick *one* ass with Godslayer, but in such a way that the Organization figures out he's got a powerful morganti weapon, no wait, a GREAT WEAPON, no WAIT! ***GODSLAYER*** Jesus Christ! Run away! And then I wanna see them get over their initial fear, fear and surprise In any event, I wanna see the assassin who goes after the guy wielding Godslayer, which will *have* to be none other than Mario, ie, Kieron the Conqueror in disguise as Sethra Lavode's Long (very long) LostTwin Brother, who is now married to Zerika, because his real pseudonym is Laszlo, and the fact that he's an Easterner is just a trick, or the fact that he was Dragaeran was a trick.... In any event, *cracks his whip* Quit Reading Emails And Get Back To Work, Steve! Jon
 
----Original Message Follows---- From: "Steven Brust" To: "David Silberstein" , "Dragaera List" Subject: Re: Out of the loop Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:31:32 -0800 > Would you deign to do us the honor of disclosing unto our humble list > the title of the latest volume of the adventures of the Jhereg and > Easterner Vlad Taltos, and any more information which might be > apropos? > Still pondering, but, very tentatively, the title is _TIASSA_. I'm pretty sure this one will pick up immediately after ISSOLA. Like, within hours. But then, I might change all that if I think of something cooler. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca From Talpianna at aol.com Fri Nov 28 13:20:20 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 16:20:20 EST Subject: Out of the loop Message-ID: <12f.3646ceb1.2cf91614@aol.com> In a message dated 11/28/2003 9:32:27 AM US Mountain Standard Time, davids at kithrup.com writes: Er, that is: Most noble and prolific historian of Dragaera, Mr. Brust: Would you deign to do us the honor of disclosing unto our humble list the title of the latest volume of the adventures of the Jhereg and Easterner Vlad Taltos, and any more information which might be apropos? If you feel unwilling to do so for the reason of providing more of a surprise at a later date, will you at least condescend to inform us whether in fact have these details in mind, or are still sketching the bare skeleton of the framework, and thus are still pondering the issue? XXXXXXXXXXXX END OF QUOTEXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX And will it be bigger than a breadbox? tal From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Nov 28 13:22:15 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 15:22:15 -0600 Subject: Out of the loop In-Reply-To: <004301c3b5dd$da1401d0$fe00000a@steve> References: <004301c3b5dd$da1401d0$fe00000a@steve> Message-ID: <20031128212215.GA2102@infodancer.org> On Fri, Nov 28, 2003 at 10:31:32AM -0800, Steven Brust wrote: > > Would you deign to do us the honor of disclosing unto our humble list > > the title of the latest volume of the adventures of the Jhereg and > > Easterner Vlad Taltos, and any more information which might be > > apropos? > Still pondering, but, very tentatively, the title is _TIASSA_. I'm pretty > sure this one will pick up immediately after ISSOLA. Like, within hours. > But then, I might change all that if I think of something cooler. Have you yet discovered whether any of the esteemed Tiassas of our acquaintance will be making guest appearances? -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Nov 28 13:27:50 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 13:27:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Out of the loop In-Reply-To: <20031128212215.GA2102@infodancer.org> References: <004301c3b5dd$da1401d0$fe00000a@steve> <20031128212215.GA2102@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Nov 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Fri, Nov 28, 2003 at 10:31:32AM -0800, Steven Brust wrote: > > > Would you deign to do us the honor of disclosing unto our humble list > > > the title of the latest volume of the adventures of the Jhereg and > > > Easterner Vlad Taltos, and any more information which might be > > > apropos? > > Still pondering, but, very tentatively, the title is _TIASSA_. I'm pretty > > sure this one will pick up immediately after ISSOLA. Like, within hours. > > But then, I might change all that if I think of something cooler. > > Have you yet discovered whether any of the esteemed Tiassas > of our acquaintance will be making guest appearances? Hey, let the man write. I don't want to know the cast of the next novel. Like he'd tell us the truth anyway. From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Nov 28 13:41:03 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 28 Nov 2003 15:41:03 -0600 Subject: Out of the loop In-Reply-To: <12f.3646ceb1.2cf91614@aol.com> References: <12f.3646ceb1.2cf91614@aol.com> Message-ID: Talpianna at aol.com writes: > In a message dated 11/28/2003 9:32:27 AM US Mountain Standard Time, > davids at kithrup.com writes: > Er, that is: Most noble and prolific historian of Dragaera, Mr. Brust: > > Would you deign to do us the honor of disclosing unto our humble list > the title of the latest volume of the adventures of the Jhereg and > Easterner Vlad Taltos, and any more information which might be > apropos? > > If you feel unwilling to do so for the reason of providing more of a > surprise at a later date, will you at least condescend to inform us > whether in fact have these details in mind, or are still sketching the > bare skeleton of the framework, and thus are still pondering the > issue? > XXXXXXXXXXXX END OF QUOTEXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX > > And will it be bigger than a breadbox? It'll be about 17 chapters, with a few prologues, epilogs, and so forth as needed. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From rone at ennui.org Fri Nov 28 13:54:45 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 13:54:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Divine maternity (WAS: Thoughts about Piro and Krytaan....) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031128215446.0383E26C34@boredom.ennui.org> Steve Hubbell writes: Wasn't there a scene in Brokedown Palace where King Lazlo's rituals to Verra are descibed as being of a sexual nature? Bridgette (spelling) climbed up to Lazlo's off limits tower and walked in on him in the middle of some ritual... He was naked, but that might not necessarily mean it was sexual. rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Fri Nov 28 16:57:29 2003 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 16:57:29 -0800 Subject: Out of the loop Message-ID: <200311281657.AA401998390@amish2000.com> >If Steve wants guaranteed sales of 50 hardcover copies and 50 >softcover copies, he'll title it /Hawk/ and make sure that Daymar has >a prominent part. But he might want to write something else, which >will disappoint MJ. Well, if it's _Dzur_, I can only buy twelve sc and one hc. But anything besides _Dzur_ or _Hawk_, I must buy just a hardcover for snuggling and a softcover for scribbling "OMG REALLY COOL" or "hey lookit DAYMAR!!!!" in the margins. If Steve wanted to subtitle _Hawk_ "DAYMAR-BOOK," that'd be jake by me, too. Helpfully, MJ From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Nov 28 15:46:01 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 15:46:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Out of the loop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > On Fri, 28 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > > >Well, while it is certainly possible that Mr. Brust will change his > >mind, the last word was there will be 19 Vlad books. > > And one more qualifier: There will be 19 *if* he doesn't get tired of > the whole thing. Or other impediments to writing occur. "Other impediments" is an odd way to refer to a Martian invasion, the sun exploding, and Armageddon. From mam at theworld.com Fri Nov 28 21:02:09 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 00:02:09 -0500 Subject: Out of the loop In-Reply-To: <12f.3646ceb1.2cf91614@aol.com> Message-ID: #In a message dated 11/28/2003 9:32:27 AM US Mountain Standard Time, #davids at kithrup.com writes: #Er, that is: Most noble and prolific historian of Dragaera, Mr. Brust: # #Would you deign to do us the honor of disclosing unto our humble list #the title of the latest volume of the adventures of the Jhereg and #Easterner Vlad Taltos, and any more information which might be #apropos? # #If you feel unwilling to do so for the reason of providing more of a #surprise at a later date, will you at least condescend to inform us #whether in fact have these details in mind, or are still sketching the #bare skeleton of the framework, and thus are still pondering the #issue? #XXXXXXXXXXXX END OF QUOTEXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX #XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX # #And will it be bigger than a breadbox? Well, the question certainly was. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From lady_gh0stw0lf at yahoo.com Fri Nov 28 21:59:37 2003 From: lady_gh0stw0lf at yahoo.com (Angie Jackson) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:59:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Out of the loop Message-ID: <20031129055937.67227.qmail@web10703.mail.yahoo.com> HA!!! You guys think that's Spioled? Got on Jim Butcher's Maclleys (Spelling) list at www.jim-butcher.com Now he spiols ya ROTTEN I mean this guy gives ya chapters to read before the book is even out!!! Thanks for the laughs ya gave me! :D :P ~Lady Ghost --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now From casey at the-bat.net Fri Nov 28 22:01:12 2003 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 01:01:12 -0500 Subject: Out of the loop In-Reply-To: <93C0B8C0-21C2-11D8-9A10-000393D1260C@mac.com> Message-ID: <001001c3b63e$317d03d0$7702a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Matthew Klahn wrote: > As Mr. Brust hasn't been *ahem* updating his weblog Actually, he updated it yesterday (that is the day before the above posting). OK, it was about seeing Master and Commander, but still, how often does Steve actually let us in on the creative process? Besides, not seeing it could easily stop up the juices. Casey From casey at the-bat.net Fri Nov 28 22:06:55 2003 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 01:06:55 -0500 Subject: Out of the loop In-Reply-To: <004301c3b5dd$da1401d0$fe00000a@steve> Message-ID: <001101c3b63e$fe10b040$7702a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Steve writ: > Still pondering, but, very tentatively, the title is > _TIASSA_. I'm pretty sure this one will pick up immediately > after ISSOLA. Like, within hours. But then, I might change > all that if I think of something cooler. Oh, joy! I shall not speculate publicly, though I will note that Damien has already updated his page with this information, and among the items on his site one may find much of the grist for the speculation rampant in my brain. (1) Also, what cannot be found there may be found succinctly in Mark's handy-dandy table of the characteristics of the Houses. (2) Casey 1 http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~phoenix/brust/ 2 http://www.speakeasy.org/~mamandel/Cracks-and-Shards/characteristics.html#Ti assa From mklahn at mac.com Sat Nov 29 10:04:57 2003 From: mklahn at mac.com (Matthew Klahn) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 12:04:57 -0600 Subject: Out of the loop In-Reply-To: <20031129055937.67227.qmail@web10703.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20031129055937.67227.qmail@web10703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8A8D7B40-2296-11D8-9A10-000393D1260C@mac.com> On Nov 28, 2003, at 23:59 , Angie Jackson wrote: > HA!!! You guys think that's Spioled? Got on Jim Butcher's Maclleys > (Spelling) list at www.jim-butcher.com Now he spiols ya ROTTEN > I mean this guy gives ya chapters to read before the book is > even out!!! > > Thanks for the laughs ya gave me! :D :P > > ~Lady Ghost You need to resist strongly any urge to inspect critically the oral cavities of equines that are given to you in the spirit of generosity and benevolence. -- Matthew S. Klahn Software Architect, CodeTek Studios, Inc. http://www.codetek.com From casey at the-bat.net Sat Nov 29 11:14:14 2003 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 14:14:14 -0500 Subject: Out of the loop In-Reply-To: <001101c3b63e$fe10b040$7702a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: <000001c3b6ac$fab01620$7702a8c0@Prophnt2.local> I wrote: > 2 http://www.speakeasy.org/~mamandel/Cracks-and-Shards/characteristics.html#Ti assa Without paying attention to the length of the url. Try this one: http://tinyurl.com/x0dn From Gaertk at aol.com Sat Nov 29 12:04:31 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 15:04:31 -0500 Subject: Out of the loop Message-ID: <45AF49FF.5E6F78B4.00048EA6@aol.com> "Casey Rousseau" writes: >> 2 http://www.speakeasy.org/~mamandel/Cracks-and-Shards/ >> characteristics.html#Tiassa > > Without paying attention to the length of the url. Try this > one: > http://tinyurl.com/x0dn This will take you to the right page: http://cracksandshards.com/characteristics.html Unfortunately, the redirection doesn't work with anchors. --KG From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sat Nov 29 20:47:28 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 20:47:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vlad as Prince Hal? In-Reply-To: <20031128184349.2A75B26C34@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20031128184349.2A75B26C34@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: ... although Hal emerges from Falstaff's underworld with a sense of life and of the common man, his greatest political gain is the flexibility that he has acquired as sidekick to the playful Falstaff. Unlike his grave father or his rigid, humorless brother Prince John, Hal knows how to improvise, how to stay alert to the world around him, and - as we see in his manipulation of soldiers and ambassadors in Henry V - how to be what others need him to be. http://www.newyorker.com/critics/theatre/ From casey at the-bat.net Sun Nov 30 00:11:45 2003 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 03:11:45 -0500 Subject: Out of the loop In-Reply-To: <45AF49FF.5E6F78B4.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: <000001c3b719$9913e870$7702a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > "Casey Rousseau" writes: > > >> 2 http://www.speakeasy.org/~mamandel/Cracks-and-Shards/ > >> characteristics.html#Tiassa > > > > Without paying attention to the length of the url. Try this > > one: > > http://tinyurl.com/x0dn > > This will take you to the right page: > http://cracksandshards.com/characteristics.html > > > Unfortunately, the redirection doesn't work with anchors. Interestingly, the redirection ends up resolving to .../Cracks-and-Shards//characteristics.html (note the double forward slash.) which I would call slightly broken. Casey From alexx at panix.com Sun Nov 30 08:41:49 2003 From: alexx at panix.com (Alexx Kay) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 11:41:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Vlad as Prince Hal? In-Reply-To: from "Philip Hart" at Nov 29, 2003 08:47:28 PM Message-ID: <200311301641.hAUGfn726815@panix1.panix.com> > > ... although Hal emerges from Falstaff's underworld with a sense of life > and of the common man, his greatest political gain is the flexibility that > he has acquired as sidekick to the playful Falstaff. Unlike his grave > father or his rigid, humorless brother Prince John, Hal knows how to > improvise, how to stay alert to the world around him, and - as we see in > his manipulation of soldiers and ambassadors in Henry V - how to be what > others need him to be. > > http://www.newyorker.com/critics/theatre/ :-) And they each have a deep, if ambivalent, relationship with their deity. I think that the major difference (well, besides social station) is that Vlad doesn't have any PowerLust, and Hal, though he sometimes equivocates, clearly does. He complains about being King, but there's no way he'd ever give it up. Vlad, on the other hand, walked away from a considerable amount of power, albeit under some duress. I think there's no question that, should Vlad's desires have pointed him in such a direction, he might have been the first Easterner on the Jhereg Council (which is as close as "King" as the setting probably allows him). Alexx Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers. alexx at carolingiaSPAMBL@CK.org http://www.panix.com/~alexx "CJE's LitCrit Rule of Thumb #12: Any story that needs a diagram to explain it needs a decent editor far more." From agrajag at dragaera.net Sun Nov 30 11:08:54 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: 30 Nov 2003 14:08:54 -0500 Subject: Out of the loop In-Reply-To: <004301c3b5dd$da1401d0$fe00000a@steve> References: <004301c3b5dd$da1401d0$fe00000a@steve> Message-ID: <1070219333.2018.5.camel@loiosh> On Fri, 2003-11-28 at 13:31, Steven Brust wrote: > > Would you deign to do us the honor of disclosing unto our humble list > > the title of the latest volume of the adventures of the Jhereg and > > Easterner Vlad Taltos, and any more information which might be > > apropos? > > > > Still pondering, but, very tentatively, the title is _TIASSA_. I'm pretty > sure this one will pick up immediately after ISSOLA. Like, within hours. > But then, I might change all that if I think of something cooler. > Sounds good. I can't wait to read it. Although I must admit that I'd like to learn what a man on the run for several years would chose to eat off the fine menu of Valabar's as his first meal back in Adrilankha. Not to mention how Vlad handles all the Jhereg who are likely to be waiting for him once he steps outside the restaurant. Jag From pulmon at comcast.net Sun Nov 30 13:04:34 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 16:04:34 -0500 Subject: Out of the loop In-Reply-To: <93C0B8C0-21C2-11D8-9A10-000393D1260C@mac.com> References: <93C0B8C0-21C2-11D8-9A10-000393D1260C@mac.com> Message-ID: How about "valabar's", where he could include interplay between Easterners who are in a superior position with Dragaerans, and also put in more food and drink sidebars? On Nov 28, 2003, at 11:47 AM, Matthew Klahn wrote: > On Nov 28, 2003, at 10:31 , David Silberstein wrote: > >> On Fri, 28 Nov 2003, David Silberstein wrote: >> >>> On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, Angie Jackson wrote: >>> >>>> Hey guys, can one of you be kind enough to fill me in on the new >>>> Vlad >>>> book? >>>> >>> >>> Er, it's being written? >> > > This is also an assumption, though well founded. As Mr. Brust hasn't > been *ahem* updating his weblog, we... *I* don't really have more > recent information than: "As > soon as I get Emacs working, I can start writing the new Vlad > novel." > > It would be interesting to read a novel that takes place _during_ > _Issola_, maybe from the point of view of... I don't know... Verra or > the chunk of Trellanstone. At any rate, I'm sure Mr. Brust could swing > it... somehow. > > Also, the name being one of the Great Houses is also an assumption, as > there is precedence in _Taltos_ of using some other non-House name as > the title of one of the books. So, it could be _Kieron_, about the > return of Kieron the Conquerer, come to whoop up on Aliera for giving > his sword away, _Verra_, _e'Drien_, etc. Although _Issola_ was about > the Jenoine, there could, without stretching the imagination too far, > even been a book titled _Jenoine_, or even _Serioli_. Brust is good > enough at improvisation that he could swing any of these, I would > guess. > > -- > Matthew S. Klahn > Software Architect, CodeTek Studios, Inc. > http://www.codetek.com > From Talpianna at aol.com Sun Nov 30 13:08:18 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 16:08:18 EST Subject: Out of the loop Message-ID: <139.288e50f5.2cfbb642@aol.com> I don't think that Mr. Brust should be permitted to write about another meal at Valabar's unless and until he provides me with the name and address of a good Hungarian restaurant in the greater Phoenix area. talpiannadr From ReVibe68 at aol.com Sun Nov 30 13:56:20 2003 From: ReVibe68 at aol.com (ReVibe68 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 16:56:20 EST Subject: Out of the loop Message-ID: <6.1d429ba7.2cfbc184@aol.com> In a message dated 11/30/03 4:08:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, Talpianna at aol.com writes: > I don't think that Mr. Brust should be permitted to write about another > meal > at Valabar's unless and until he provides me with the name and address of a > good Hungarian restaurant in the greater Phoenix area. > I agree with the aforementioned comment with the exception that I'd prefer a good restaurant in the greater New York City area instead of Phoenix. -ReVibe From mam at theworld.com Sun Nov 30 14:16:47 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 17:16:47 -0500 Subject: Out of the loop In-Reply-To: <000001c3b719$9913e870$7702a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Nov 2003, Casey Rousseau wrote: #Gaertk at aol.com wrote: #> #> Unfortunately, the redirection doesn't work with anchors. # #Interestingly, the redirection ends up resolving to #.../Cracks-and-Shards//characteristics.html (note the double forward slash.) #which I would call slightly broken. Ooops. My mistake. I have put in what should be the fix for it, though that will take some time to propagate. (24hr? 48hr?) -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From casey at the-bat.net Sun Nov 30 15:36:14 2003 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 18:36:14 -0500 Subject: Out of the loop In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c3b79a$bf4bfa60$7702a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Sun, 30 Nov 2003, Casey Rousseau wrote: > > #Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > #> > #> Unfortunately, the redirection doesn't work with anchors. > # > #Interestingly, the redirection ends up resolving to > #.../Cracks-and-Shards//characteristics.html (note the double > #forward slash.) which I would call slightly broken. > > Ooops. My mistake. I have put in what should be the fix for > it, though that will take some time to propagate. (24hr? 48hr?) > It works now for me. Thanks. From TimN at rcn.com Tue Dec 2 03:35:12 2003 From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 06:35:12 -0500 Subject: Out of the loop References: <200311281657.AA401998390@amish2000.com> Message-ID: <007a01c3b8c8$72a21260$d916fea9@ananda> Daymar is so amazingly cool, that if I were into guys, I'd have a huge crush on him. I'm thinking of writing a "real ultimate power" parody about Daymar, now. - Tim From warlord at dragon.com Tue Dec 2 08:32:57 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 11:32:57 -0500 Subject: Out of the loop In-Reply-To: <200311281657.AA401998390@amish2000.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: M J [mailto:saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com] > > >If Steve wants guaranteed sales of 50 hardcover copies and 50 > >softcover copies, he'll title it /Hawk/ and make sure that > Daymar has > >a prominent part. But he might want to write something else, > which > >will disappoint MJ. > > Well, if it's _Dzur_, I can only buy twelve sc and one hc. > But anything besides _Dzur_ or _Hawk_, I must buy just a > hardcover for snuggling and a softcover for scribbling "OMG > REALLY COOL" or "hey lookit DAYMAR!!!!" in the margins. > > If Steve wanted to subtitle _Hawk_ "DAYMAR-BOOK," that'd be > jake by me, too. > Remember, a mixed up Daymar is very Drama-y. :) W From greyw01f at hotmail.com Tue Dec 2 10:45:36 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 18:45:36 +0000 Subject: Out of the loop Message-ID: ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Warlord" To: "Dragaera List" Subject: RE: Out of the loop Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 11:32:57 -0500 > -----Original Message----- > From: M J [mailto:saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com] > > >If Steve wants guaranteed sales of 50 hardcover copies and 50 > >softcover copies, he'll title it /Hawk/ and make sure that > Daymar has > >a prominent part. But he might want to write something else, > which > >will disappoint MJ. > > Well, if it's _Dzur_, I can only buy twelve sc and one hc. > But anything besides _Dzur_ or _Hawk_, I must buy just a > hardcover for snuggling and a softcover for scribbling "OMG > REALLY COOL" or "hey lookit DAYMAR!!!!" in the margins. > > If Steve wanted to subtitle _Hawk_ "DAYMAR-BOOK," that'd be > jake by me, too. > >Remember, a mixed up Daymar is very Drama-y. :) I hate you. :) Jon _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca From lady_gh0stw0lf at yahoo.com Tue Dec 2 18:38:52 2003 From: lady_gh0stw0lf at yahoo.com (Angie Jackson) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 18:38:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Out of the loop Message-ID: <20031203023852.41176.qmail@web10704.mail.yahoo.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: M J [mailto:saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com] > > >If Steve wants guaranteed sales of 50 hardcover copies and 50 > >softcover copies, he'll title it /Hawk/ and make sure that > Daymar has > >a prominent part. But he might want to write something else, > which > >will disappoint MJ. > > Well, if it's _Dzur_, I can only buy twelve sc and one hc. > But anything besides _Dzur_ or _Hawk_, I must buy just a > hardcover for snuggling and a softcover for scribbling "OMG > REALLY COOL" or "hey lookit DAYMAR!!!!" in the margins. > > If Steve wanted to subtitle _Hawk_ "DAYMAR-BOOK," that'd be > jake by me, too. > >Remember, a mixed up Daymar is very Drama-y. :) >I hate you. :) I second that. >:) Lady Ghost PS Beware the hate crime thingy. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now From warlord at dragon.com Wed Dec 3 08:33:29 2003 From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 11:33:29 -0500 Subject: Out of the loop In-Reply-To: <20031203023852.41176.qmail@web10704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20031203112435.03a3b598@pop.dragon.com> At 18:38 12/2/2003 -0800, Angie Jackson wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: M J [mailto:saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com] > > > > >If Steve wants guaranteed sales of 50 hardcover copies and 50 > > >softcover copies, he'll title it /Hawk/ and make sure that > > Daymar has > > >a prominent part. But he might want to write something else, > > which > > >will disappoint MJ. > > > > Well, if it's _Dzur_, I can only buy twelve sc and one hc. > > But anything besides _Dzur_ or _Hawk_, I must buy just a > > hardcover for snuggling and a softcover for scribbling "OMG > > REALLY COOL" or "hey lookit DAYMAR!!!!" in the margins. > > > > If Steve wanted to subtitle _Hawk_ "DAYMAR-BOOK," that'd be > > jake by me, too. > > > > >Remember, a mixed up Daymar is very Drama-y. :) > > >I hate you. :) > >I second that. >:) > >Lady Ghost > >PS Beware the hate crime thingy. A *fan* club. Hey Steve! That's TWO for me. Jealous yet? :) W From books at bofh.com Thu Dec 4 08:55:43 2003 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 09:55:43 -0700 Subject: Out of the loop In-Reply-To: <139.288e50f5.2cfbb642@aol.com> References: <139.288e50f5.2cfbb642@aol.com> Message-ID: <20031204165543.GA32412@bofh.com> On Sun, Nov 30, 2003 at 04:08:18PM -0500, Talpianna at aol.com wrote: > I don't think that Mr. Brust should be permitted to write about another meal > at Valabar's unless and until he provides me with the name and address of a > good Hungarian restaurant in the greater Phoenix area. Seconded. All in favor say Aye. AYE! All opposed say Nay. It is so moved. (I'll also take Tucson as a workable substitute) -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From jtrager at keyway.net Thu Dec 4 09:58:08 2003 From: jtrager at keyway.net (Trager) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 09:58:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Out of the loop Message-ID: <200312041758.hB4Hw87o067767@shrek.keyway.net> I do have to wonder what the reaction would be if one were to walk into said restaurant and ask for the roast norska, or kethna in dill sauce... > On Sun, Nov 30, 2003 at 04:08:18PM -0500, Talpianna at aol.com wrote: > > I don't think that Mr. Brust should be permitted to write about another meal > > at Valabar's unless and until he provides me with the name and address of a > > good Hungarian restaurant in the greater Phoenix area. > > Seconded. > > All in favor say Aye. AYE! > All opposed say Nay. > > It is so moved. > > (I'll also take Tucson as a workable substitute) > > -Jot > -- > Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ > "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" > -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan > > From bio_phy at hotmail.com Thu Dec 4 11:29:34 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 13:29:34 -0600 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: You all know Orson Scott Card, I presume. I came across this quote in a larger interview with him in late 1999 just before the release of _Ender's Shadow_. During the course of the interview, the topic turned to the issue of writer's block and how he handles it. As it turns out, he has someting of a unique perspective on it: http://www.writerswrite.com/journal/sep99/card.htm You are so prolific. Have you ever faced the curse of writer's block? If so, how did you deal with it? "I don't feel prolific. I'm keenly aware that if I could ever find the discipline to work steadily, I could write six books a year. My total of less than two a year tells you exactly how unsteadily I work (sighs). As for writer's block, I regard it as my unconscious mind telling me that I'm making a gross mistake in the project I'm working on. It's not a problem, it's a blessing, and the mystery is to find out the mistake, toss out the ineffective section, and write a new version that works. This sometimes means throwing away as much as a hundred pages -- sometimes more -- but I have never found "writer's block" to be wrong. Whenever I'm stopped on a project, it's because I was doing something false or weak, and when I get it right, it becomes more powerful and true." johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa "A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man." - Jedediah Springfield _________________________________________________________________ Shop online for kids? toys by age group, price range, and toy category at MSN Shopping. No waiting for a clerk to help you! http://shopping.msn.com From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Dec 4 11:52:40 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 11:52:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Johne Cook wrote: [Card says,] > "I don't feel prolific. I'm keenly aware that if I could ever find the > discipline to work steadily, I could write six books a year. My total of > less than two a year tells you exactly how unsteadily I work (sighs). I could write six books a year, though I'd get an RSI. Maybe if he wrote fewer books he could vary his themes a little and maybe incorporate some personal growth, like into adulthood. He's probably the most talented SF writer out there whose work I have no more desire to read - and it's not because his politics frighten me. From bio_phy at hotmail.com Thu Dec 4 13:38:27 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 15:38:27 -0600 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: It took me awhile to figure RSI out to be "Repetitive Stress Injury". Did I get it right? ;) (It's not his politics that worry me, it's his religion, but I can't deny that he's a helluva writer. His _Ender's Shadow_ series was superb. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ "A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man." - Jedediah Springfield >From: Philip Hart >I could write six books a year, though I'd get an RSI. Maybe if he wrote >fewer books he could vary his themes a little and maybe incorporate some >personal growth, like into adulthood. He's probably the most talented SF >writer out there whose work I have no more desire to read - and it's not >because his politics frighten me. _________________________________________________________________ Winterize your home with tips from MSN House & Home. http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Dec 4 14:01:54 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 14:01:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Johne Cook wrote: > It took me awhile to figure RSI out to be "Repetitive Stress Injury". Did I > get it right? ;) Yup - google of course answers all unimportant questions. > > (It's not his politics that worry me, it's his religion, Same thing. > but I can't deny > that he's a helluva writer. His _Ender's Shadow_ series was superb. I didn't make it past Xenocide, which was a real struggle. The last few pages of Ender's Game and most of Speaker For The Dead were very strong, but I'd had it with the superkids by then (or maybe already after the homophobic Songbird). Unaccompanied Sonata is a powerful story, but that was enough mutilation for one writer (ditto for Mercy and Worms and the story about "breast in butter".) Card's hiding of his talent used to frustrate me, but life's too short. > > johne (phy) cook > wisconsin, usa > > aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ > > "A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man." > - Jedediah Springfield > > >From: Philip Hart > >I could write six books a year, though I'd get an RSI. Maybe if he wrote > >fewer books he could vary his themes a little and maybe incorporate some > >personal growth, like into adulthood. He's probably the most talented SF > >writer out there whose work I have no more desire to read - and it's not > >because his politics frighten me. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Winterize your home with tips from MSN House & Home. > http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx > > From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Dec 4 14:10:12 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:10:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: <200312042210.hB4MACg21271@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Philip Hart wrote: > On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Johne Cook wrote: > > > (It's not his politics that worry me, it's his religion, > > Same thing. Excuse me? Are you stating that politics and religion are the same thing, or that they are in OSC's case? If the former, I have to disagree (if the latter, I'd have no idea, as I haven't read enough of OSC's work to form an opinion on the subject). Just wanted to clear it up. Hey, maybe I'm wrong and politics and religion *are* the same. Would explain a great deal, if nothing else....:) Cheers, Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Dec 4 14:36:44 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 14:36:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: <200312042210.hB4MACg21271@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200312042210.hB4MACg21271@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > Philip Hart wrote: > > On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Johne Cook wrote: > > > > > (It's not his politics that worry me, it's his religion, > > > > Same thing. > > Excuse me? Are you stating that politics and religion > are the same thing, or that they are in OSC's case? Well, from my perspective as a physicist, an atheist, and a reductionist (all one thing in my opinion), all belief is the same stuff - hooey. But that's not a productive argument. Rather I should say that it seems to me people have a set of mostly emotional viewpoints on what's right, and that they effectively practice their religion and politics accordingly. E.g., it seems to me that consistent Christians should be communists, but of course aren't. This view helps me understand why Zell Miller is to the "left" of Olympia Snowe, why scientists moved left after Nixon, why the current administration's policies are what they are, why there are conservative and liberal Catholics, what in part drives the nature/nurture debate among biologists, ... > If the former, I have to disagree (if the latter, I'd have no idea, as I > haven't read enough of OSC's work to form an opinion on the subject). It is my impression, not strongly data-driven, that the Mormons are rather more of a cohesive religio-political group than most. - Philip > Just wanted to clear it up. Hey, maybe I'm wrong and > politics and religion *are* the same. Would explain > a great deal, if nothing else....:) > > Cheers, > Chris From gomi at speakeasy.net Thu Dec 4 14:46:22 2003 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:46:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > Well, from my perspective as a physicist, an atheist, and a reductionist > (all one thing in my opinion), all belief is the same stuff - hooey. > But that's not a productive argument. Rather I should say that it seems > to me people have a set of mostly emotional viewpoints on what's right, > and that they effectively practice their religion and politics > accordingly. Politics ultimately derives as a system that attempts to solve large-scale problems of human society, and as these problems have largely proven intractable to science and reduction, some amount of belief inevitably creeps in. The default heuristic of 'what worked for Grandpa?' tends to serve as an on-going marketplace of ideas where each generation 'votes' on what their idea of an optimal solution is -- it's a rough and blindly questing sort of progress, but it is progress. The Edmund Burke quote on tradition has always seemed apropos to me: "Tradition means giving a vote to most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be walking about. All democrats object to men being disqualified by the accident of birth; tradition objects to their being disqualified by the accident of death. Democracy tells us not to neglect a good man's opinion, even if he is our groom; tradition asks us not to neglect a good man's opinion, even if he is our father." Lord Falkland was perhaps more blunt, but no less to the point: "When it is not necessary to change, it is necessary not to change." pe From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Dec 4 14:53:38 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:53:38 -0600 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: References: <200312042210.hB4MACg21271@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <20031204225338.GB961@infodancer.org> On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 02:36:44PM -0800, Philip Hart wrote: > On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Johne Cook wrote: > > > > (It's not his politics that worry me, it's his religion, > > > Same thing. > > Excuse me? Are you stating that politics and religion > > are the same thing, or that they are in OSC's case? > Well, from my perspective as a physicist, an atheist, and a reductionist > (all one thing in my opinion), all belief is the same stuff - hooey. So that is your belief, then? > But that's not a productive argument. Rather I should say that it seems > to me people have a set of mostly emotional viewpoints on what's right, > and that they effectively practice their religion and politics > accordingly. This is true, I think, except that many people do not do what they think is right, and of course religion has a prominent role (if not a role to the exclusion of other factors) in forming those emotional viewpoints. Or more accurately, the religion in which a child is brought up in, with the understanding that the beliefs of the parents are a more important formative factor than the sterile edicts of religious doctrine. At least until the child becomes able to question his parents, which sadly is usually too late to save him/her/it. > E.g., it seems to me that consistent Christians should be > communists, but of course aren't. This is a dangerous game here; you're telling people how you think they should behave based on your understanding of their beliefs, when you have already admitted you neither understand nor respect their beliefs, and then judging them based on their adherence to your standard of conduct derived from your imperfect understanding of their beliefs. I don't see any support for communism in Christianity unless you are coming into the question with a preconception that communism is a moral and desirable form of government/economics and other forms are neither moral nor desirable. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From gomi at speakeasy.net Thu Dec 4 14:55:14 2003 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:55:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: <20031204225338.GB961@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: > I don't see any support for communism in Christianity unless you > are coming into the question with a preconception that communism > is a moral and desirable form of government/economics and other > forms are neither moral nor desirable. I'm not particularly moral, but I'm told by people who should know better that I'm desirable. pe From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Dec 4 15:00:23 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 17:00:23 -0600 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031204230023.GC961@infodancer.org> On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 02:46:22PM -0800, Gomi no Sensei wrote: > "Tradition means giving a vote to most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. > It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and > arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be walking about. All > democrats object to men being disqualified by the accident of birth; tradition > objects to their being disqualified by the accident of death. Democracy tells > us not to neglect a good man's opinion, even if he is our groom; tradition > asks us not to neglect a good man's opinion, even if he is our father." > > Lord Falkland was perhaps more blunt, but no less to the point: > > "When it is not necessary to change, it is necessary not to change." Those quotes embrace contradicting opinions on the value of tradition, you realize. One uses sarcasm to suggest that adherence to tradition is silly; the other is a quite straightforward statement of principle. The most valuable benefit we derive from tradition is the knowledge, admittedly imperfect, of the precepts that formed a society capable of surviving and passing along its precepts to a second generation. For that alone tradition deserves respect; change is an inherently risky endeavor. If you make the wrong change in your society, things will get worse -- make too many of those and you aren't successfully passing down your changes, which will hopefully stabilize things. In other words, tradition cumulative result of the prior generations saying "This is what we did, and it worked." -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From bio_phy at hotmail.com Thu Dec 4 15:00:02 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 17:00:02 -0600 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: All I know is that I'd like to be as cavalier about writer's block as Orson is. I write for a living and it still bedevils me on occasion. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ "A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man." - Jedediah Springfield _________________________________________________________________ Shop online for kids? toys by age group, price range, and toy category at MSN Shopping. No waiting for a clerk to help you! http://shopping.msn.com From gomi at speakeasy.net Thu Dec 4 15:02:21 2003 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 15:02:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: <20031204230023.GC961@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: > Those quotes embrace contradicting opinions on the value of > tradition, you realize. One uses sarcasm to suggest that > adherence to tradition is silly; the other is a quite > straightforward statement of principle. Ahem. Burke was not being sarcastic, and neither was I in quoting him. > In other words, tradition cumulative result of the prior > generations saying "This is what we did, and it worked." Precisely so. pe From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Dec 4 15:24:31 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 15:24:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Gomi no Sensei wrote: > On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > > Well, from my perspective as a physicist, an atheist, and a reductionist > > (all one thing in my opinion), all belief is the same stuff - hooey. > > But that's not a productive argument. Rather I should say that it seems > > to me people have a set of mostly emotional viewpoints on what's right, > > and that they effectively practice their religion and politics > > accordingly. > > Politics ultimately derives as a system that attempts to solve large-scale > problems of human society, This seems insufficiently cynical or perhaps Darwinist to me. > and as these problems have largely proven intractable to science and > reduction, I disagree about the science part - when a cadre of hard scientists are promoted to high office we can talk. Of course reductionism isn't practically applicable to messy poorly-measured systems. > some amount of belief inevitably creeps in. In my view it's mostly belief. In my experience people have world-views first, politics and religion second - or rather, those world-views are effectively their politics and religion. Maybe not a very useful (or clear) distinction. I don't think this has anything to do with liberalism or conservatism, though in my view liberals are the less belief-driven lately. - Philip > The Edmund Burke quote on tradition has always seemed apropos to me: > > "Tradition means giving a vote to most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. > It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and > arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be walking about. All > democrats object to men being disqualified by the accident of birth; tradition > objects to their being disqualified by the accident of death. Democracy tells > us not to neglect a good man's opinion, even if he is our groom; tradition > asks us not to neglect a good man's opinion, even if he is our father." > > Lord Falkland was perhaps more blunt, but no less to the point: > > "When it is not necessary to change, it is necessary not to change." > > pe > > > From gomi at speakeasy.net Thu Dec 4 15:35:51 2003 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 15:35:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > I disagree about the science part - when a cadre of hard scientists are > promoted to high office we can talk. I could think of few things more guaranteed to fail horribly. Large-scale human systems are not things we currently have good science for. If we did, regulation of the economy wouldn't involve nearly as much guessing and hoping. > Of course reductionism isn't > practically applicable to messy poorly-measured systems. Precisely. > In my view it's mostly belief. In the absence of precisely defined and manipulable data, what else is there? > I don't think this has anything to do with liberalism or conservatism, > though in my view liberals are the less belief-driven lately. I've often thought that the more useful distinction is between those who believe that humans are a blank slate that is only civilized through external influence (which must be applied), and those who believe humans are innately good and only acquire evil tendencies due to pernicious external influences (which they must be protected from). That particular split is no respecter of party lines, I've found, however drawn. pe From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Dec 4 15:45:58 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 15:45:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: <20031204225338.GB961@infodancer.org> References: <200312042210.hB4MACg21271@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <20031204225338.GB961@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 02:36:44PM -0800, Philip Hart wrote: > > On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > > Philip Hart wrote: > > > > On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Johne Cook wrote: > > > > > (It's not his politics that worry me, it's his religion, > > > > Same thing. > > > Excuse me? Are you stating that politics and religion > > > are the same thing, or that they are in OSC's case? > > Well, from my perspective as a physicist, an atheist, and a reductionist > > (all one thing in my opinion), all belief is the same stuff - hooey. > > So that is your belief, then? The subordinate clause means, "in my professional opinion". But as you perhaps imply, this sort of dicussion leads to the impossibility of knowledge, not a productive place to end up, as I said. > > > But that's not a productive argument. Rather I should say that it seems > > to me people have a set of mostly emotional viewpoints on what's right, > > and that they effectively practice their religion and politics > > accordingly. > > E.g., it seems to me that consistent Christians should be > > communists, but of course aren't. > > This is a dangerous game here; you're telling people how you > think they should behave based on your understanding of their > beliefs, when you have already admitted you neither understand > nor respect their beliefs, and then judging them based on their > adherence to your standard of conduct derived from your imperfect > understanding of their beliefs. I wrote "consistent", not "moral". As far as I know, you don't know anything about my degree of understanding of particular religions. I think it's often the case in our society that non-believers are often more familiar with religious doctrines than the bulk of adherents. To be clear, I respect believers - Christians, Easter Bunnyists, astrologers, Cubs fans, whatever. > I don't see any support for communism in Christianity unless you > are coming into the question with a preconception that communism > is a moral and desirable form of government/economics and other > forms are neither moral nor desirable. I can't see Christ approving of Donald Trump (maybe Bill Gates), and I can't see a marketplace in a Christian monastery or heaven, and I don't see a lot of wiggle-room in If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast and give to the poor and thou shalt have treasure in Heaven and come follow Me. I don't think communism is a workable form of govt - but I'm not a Christian. From rone at ennui.org Thu Dec 4 15:56:11 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 15:56:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031204235611.5161F26C2D@boredom.ennui.org> Philip Hart writes: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Gomi no Sensei wrote: > Politics ultimately derives as a system that attempts to solve large-scale > problems of human society, This seems insufficiently cynical or perhaps Darwinist to me. You're trying to taint the definition of politics with its current state of affairs. I think pe is trying to speak of politics in an ideal sense. I don't think this has anything to do with liberalism or conservatism, though in my view liberals are the less belief-driven lately. I do not agree with your view. rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Dec 4 15:57:35 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 15:57:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Gomi no Sensei wrote: > On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > > I disagree about the science part - when a cadre of hard scientists are > > promoted to high office we can talk. > > I could think of few things more guaranteed to fail horribly. Large-scale > human systems are not things we currently have good science for. If we > did, regulation of the economy wouldn't involve nearly as much guessing > and hoping. I'm not advocating Scientist-Kings - I'm advocating people trained to be skeptical and weigh evidence as dispassionately as possible. > Precisely. > > > In my view it's mostly belief. > > In the absence of precisely defined and manipulable data, what else is > there? There is a lot of good data, and then there are economics, sociology, and experimentation. We could talk about the Houston school systems if you like, or free trade, or the recent govt study of the cost/benefit analysis of limited regulation. > > I don't think this has anything to do with liberalism or conservatism, > > though in my view liberals are the less belief-driven lately. > > I've often thought that the more useful distinction is between those who > believe that humans are a blank slate that is only civilized through external > influence (which must be applied), and those who believe humans are innately > good and only acquire evil tendencies due to pernicious external influences > (which they must be protected from). > > That particular split is no respecter of party lines, I've found, however > drawn. Hmm, I don't see things in those terms. Maybe "optimistic/pessimistic" and "happy/unhappy" would be useful in making the division you suggest. Really though I think few people have self-consistent belief systems. > pe > > > From rone at ennui.org Thu Dec 4 15:59:04 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 15:59:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031204235904.1B64326C34@boredom.ennui.org> Gomi no Sensei writes: The Edmund Burke quote on tradition has always seemed apropos to me: "Tradition means giving a vote to most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be walking about. All democrats object to men being disqualified by the accident of birth; tradition objects to their being disqualified by the accident of death. Democracy tells us not to neglect a good man's opinion, even if he is our groom; tradition asks us not to neglect a good man's opinion, even if he is our father." Tradition is only useful if a) we understand its genesis, and b) the context in which it originated is still pertinent. Otherwise, it's just doing things "because we've always done it this way." rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From lister at insaneninjahero.com Thu Dec 4 13:59:22 2003 From: lister at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 13:59:22 -0800 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FCFAE3A.4050806@insaneninjahero.com> Johne Cook wrote: > It took me awhile to figure RSI out to be "Repetitive Stress Injury". > Did I get it right? ;) > > (It's not his politics that worry me, it's his religion, but I can't I've heard OSC is a Mormon, as I am; yet based on his books, his religion worries ME. Kisc From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Dec 4 16:00:14 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 16:00:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Incidentally, you should post here more often. - Philip From lister at insaneninjahero.com Thu Dec 4 16:01:08 2003 From: lister at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 16:01:08 -0800 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: References: <200312042210.hB4MACg21271@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <20031204225338.GB961@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <3FCFCAC4.2050709@insaneninjahero.com> > >>I don't see any support for communism in Christianity unless you >>are coming into the question with a preconception that communism >>is a moral and desirable form of government/economics and other >>forms are neither moral nor desirable. > > > I can't see Christ approving of Donald Trump (maybe Bill Gates), and I > can't see a marketplace in a Christian monastery or heaven, and I don't > see a lot of wiggle-room in If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou > hast and give to the poor and thou shalt have treasure in Heaven and come > follow Me. I don't think communism is a workable form of govt - but I'm > not a Christian. > > The problem with that statement is, everyone sees wiggle-room in everything. Maybe Christ meant only this guy had to sell everything, because that was his one remaining weakness. Maybe He was telling all of us to find our biggest weakness and drive it from us (a la if thine eye offend thee, cut it out). Pointing out specific scriptural references to support an issue isn't very productive either. Everyone has their own understanding of Just What That Passage Means, believe you me. Meanwhile, I think communism (as defined; contrast that with communism as practiced on Earth) is an ideal that we humans are not likely to be capable of (at least not many of us). I, as a Christian, agree that communism would be the way to go in a perfect world, as contrasted (again) to the one we live in. Kisc From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Dec 4 16:00:56 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:00:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: <200312050000.hB500ug08315@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Philip Hart wrote: > I don't think communism is a workable form of govt - but I'm > not a Christian. Yes, but what is? And what's your definition of "workable"? Workable to whom? The "democracy" we live in (we don't, we're in a Republic, but oh well) works to a degree. For some, it works *very* well, while for others, it doesn't work at all (yeah, I can give examples if needed:). Communism, IMO, holds the same problem most forms of govt hold: greed. (Yes, this is an ubber-simplified statement.;) I firmly believe that, if we were able to geneticaly weed out greed from society, most any form of govt would be workable. At the very least, the world would be a far easier place to live in. :) 'Course, I'm still young.... I'd love to live on ChrisWorld.... :) Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From rone at ennui.org Thu Dec 4 16:01:59 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:01:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031205000159.1E43326C39@boredom.ennui.org> Philip Hart writes: Really though I think few people have self-consistent belief systems. But too many think they do. rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From gomi at speakeasy.net Thu Dec 4 16:04:08 2003 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:04:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: <200312050000.hB500ug08315@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > Philip Hart wrote: > > I don't think communism is a workable form of govt - but I'm > > not a Christian. I just want to say I read this as 'I don't think communism is a workable form of goat', which confused me severely. pe From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Dec 4 16:04:47 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:04:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: <200312050004.hB504lg08970@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> rone wrote: > Tradition is only useful if a) we understand its genesis, and b) the > context in which it originated is still pertinent. Otherwise, it's > just doing things "because we've always done it this way." Seconded. Heck, I'll get my Evil Twin the third it. Christmas, as a tradition, springs instantly to mind, but there are many others. Heck, I can't be the only one on this list who's ever thought "That's a stupid tradition!". Chris "He is a lover of his country who rebukes and does not excuse its sins." - Frederick Douglass From mklahn at mac.com Thu Dec 4 16:06:00 2003 From: mklahn at mac.com (Matthew Klahn) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 18:06:00 -0600 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 4, 2003, at 17:02 , Gomi no Sensei wrote: > On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: >> In other words, tradition cumulative result of the prior >> generations saying "This is what we did, and it worked." > > Precisely so. Actually, IMO, not. It's more like "this is what we did, and it more-or-less worked out the way that it did, which may or may not have been all that great, depending on who you listen to". I, myself, would love to see a disclaimer added to that statement (which nobody ever does, maybe because they aren't sticklers for accuracy like I try/tend to be): "Please note that doing the same thing at whatever time it is that you're going to do it may or may not yield the same results on account of the whole rest of the situation having inevitably changed >from how it was when we attempted what we did, and in fact, maybe BECAUSE OF what we attempted. In other words, your milage may vary (widely)." The problem with tradition, is that small changes in the situation make big differences in the appropriateness of any given course of action. Most people who adhere to tradition, for tradition's sake, tend to ignore even big differences in situations. One example: people who argue against the "modernization" of Shakespeare's works (setting "Romeo & Juliet" in modern society, etc.) because it's a change from the original works, independently of the quality of the implementation of the change (be it bad or good). -- Matthew S. Klahn Software Architect, CodeTek Studios, Inc. http://www.codetek.com From gomi at speakeasy.net Thu Dec 4 16:07:07 2003 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:07:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: <3FCFCAC4.2050709@insaneninjahero.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert wrote: > Meanwhile, I think communism (as defined; contrast that with communism > as practiced on Earth) is an ideal that we humans are not likely to be > capable of (at least not many of us). Like polyamory, communism requires a different brand of human than the one ordinarily available if it's to work. We have to row with the oars we've got, however. pe insert polyamory/communism 'the People getting screwed' pun here From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Dec 4 16:10:34 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:10:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: <200312050010.hB50AYg09857@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> rone wrote: > Philip Hart writes: > Really though I think few people have self-consistent belief systems. > > But too many think they do. Yeah, but it's a stupid thing to think. Humans are far too complex to catagorize into black and white. I've often found I use the phrase "do as I say, not as I do". Why? Well, cause I'll occasionaly take actions, for various reasons, that go against my own beliefs. Also, what works for me may not work for someone else. I do not believe I am alone in this. ;) Chris "I feel if a person can't communicate, the very least they can do is shut up." ~ Tom Lehrer ~ From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Dec 4 16:12:55 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 16:12:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: <3FCFCAC4.2050709@insaneninjahero.com> References: <200312042210.hB4MACg21271@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <20031204225338.GB961@infodancer.org> <3FCFCAC4.2050709@insaneninjahero.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert wrote: > > I can't see a marketplace in a Christian monastery or heaven, and I > > don't see a lot of wiggle-room in If thou wilt be perfect, go sell > > what thou hast and give to the poor and thou shalt have treasure in > > Heaven and come follow Me. > The problem with that statement is, everyone sees wiggle-room in > everything. Maybe Christ meant only this guy had to sell everything, > because that was his one remaining weakness. Maybe He was telling all of > us to find our biggest weakness and drive it from us (a la if thine eye > offend thee, cut it out). Pointing out specific scriptural references to > support an issue isn't very productive either. Everyone has their own > understanding of Just What That Passage Means, believe you me. Yes, that's precisely what I was arguing - people have their viewpoints, and cut their religion to fit. I don't have an opinion about Christ, if he existed in anything like the form the Gospels present, except to say that he seems very eloquent (up there with Rabbi Hillel, from the same time period I believe - "If I am not for myself, then who will be for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?") and he seems to indicate that a society where poor people die in gutters is unacceptable. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Thu Dec 4 16:16:23 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:16:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: <200312050016.hB50GNg10806@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Gomi no Sensei wrote: > Like polyamory, communism requires a different brand of human than the > one ordinarily available if it's to work. Woohoo! Nice to know there are others on the list....:) And I have to agree. Though, as others have said, communism, in the world in which we live, is impossible to bring about. I suppose it could work in an isolated society, but then, that is not possible in this world, either (at least, not if the society is to last). Chris "If you can't live without me, die already." ~Cynthia Heimel From gomi at speakeasy.net Thu Dec 4 16:17:35 2003 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:17:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: <200312050004.hB504lg08970@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > rone wrote: > > Tradition is only useful if a) we understand its genesis, and b) the > > context in which it originated is still pertinent. Otherwise, it's > > just doing things "because we've always done it this way." This is where the Lord Falkland quote really shines, see. When it really IS necessary to change, once the circumstances are different enough that doing things the old way don't make sense, then yes. By all means, try something new. What I tend to argue against is the idea of change for change's sake, the notion that 'new' implies 'improved'. The extreme viewpoint (which I'm not imputing to anyone here, mind) that of COURSE we can design an ideal society by throwing out all that crufty old legacy code and crafting new rules anew is one that I find extremely pernicious -- more so than the opposing extreme of never changing anything. Our social code is a hideous glob of kludges, yes -- but each kludge was patched in to address a problem, and worked, more or less, at the time. In general, I like evaluating each situation on a case-by-case to see if it passes the 'necessary to change' test rather than advocate wholesale 'this sux, throw it out' actions.' pe From gomi at speakeasy.net Thu Dec 4 16:19:57 2003 From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:19:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: <200312050016.hB50GNg10806@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > Gomi no Sensei wrote: > > Like polyamory, communism requires a different brand of human than the > > one ordinarily available if it's to work. > > Woohoo! Nice to know there are others on > the list....:) I do not believe I understand the remark you have done the honor of addressing to me. pe From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Dec 4 16:23:01 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 16:23:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Gomi no Sensei wrote: > On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > > Philip Hart wrote: > > > I don't think communism is a workable form of govt - but I'm > > > not a Christian. > > I just want to say I read this as 'I don't think communism is a workable > form of goat', which confused me severely. Get your mind out of the gutter, sir. > > pe > > > From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Dec 4 16:25:05 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 16:25:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: <3FCFCAC4.2050709@insaneninjahero.com> References: <200312042210.hB4MACg21271@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <20031204225338.GB961@infodancer.org> <3FCFCAC4.2050709@insaneninjahero.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert wrote: > Meanwhile, I think communism (as defined; contrast that with communism > as practiced on Earth) is an ideal that we humans are not likely to be > capable of (at least not many of us). That's just how I feel about Christianity. > I, as a Christian, agree that communism would be the way to go in a > perfect world, as contrasted (again) to the one we live in. > > Kisc > > From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Dec 4 18:20:39 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 18:20:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: re Tiassa In-Reply-To: References: <200312042210.hB4MACg21271@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> <20031204225338.GB961@infodancer.org> <3FCFCAC4.2050709@insaneninjahero.com> Message-ID: Is anyone familiar with this book: http://www.crookedtimber.org/archives/000932.html And should someone send SKZB a copy? From davids at kithrup.com Thu Dec 4 18:44:22 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 18:44:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: re Tiassa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >Is anyone familiar with this book: >http://www.crookedtimber.org/archives/000932.html > >And should someone send SKZB a copy? > I am not sure that it is apropos to /Tiassa/, although perhaps you are thinking of the oracle in /Teckla/, who was indeed a Tiassa. You will of course have noted that the oracle was quite correct in his response to Vlad. The problem, of course, was that Vlad failed to ask the correct question, but then, I am not sure Vlad could be expected to know the correct question. I have sometimes toyed with the notion that, if one were to be granted 3 wishes, that the first wish would be to instantly know the consequences of all of ones actions (and as long as we're wishing, ones inactions). This ability would be voluntary (so that one would not be overwhelmed by information), and would hopefully avoid the nasty UNintended consequences that so often befall wishers. No doubt such an ability would have its own pitfalls. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Dec 4 19:00:13 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 19:00:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: re Tiassa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > >Is anyone familiar with this book: > >http://www.crookedtimber.org/archives/000932.html > > > >And should someone send SKZB a copy? > > > > I am not sure that it is apropos to /Tiassa/, although perhaps you are > thinking of the oracle in /Teckla/, who was indeed a Tiassa. I believe oracularity is an official trait of Tiassas - see Mark Mandel's page. > You will of course have noted that the oracle was quite correct in his > response to Vlad. The problem, of course, was that Vlad failed to ask > the correct question, but then, I am not sure Vlad could be expected > to know the correct question. For once I wish an oracular pronouncement would be just wrong, but it's too much fun for authors to avoid. > I have sometimes toyed with the notion that, if one were to be granted > 3 wishes, that the first wish would be to instantly know the > consequences of all of ones actions (and as long as we're wishing, > ones inactions). I believe this runs into paradox - see philosphers on the concept of a Book of Knowledge. > No doubt such an ability would have its own pitfalls. Destroying the universe might be considered a pitfall. From davids at kithrup.com Thu Dec 4 19:44:49 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 19:44:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: re Tiassa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > >On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > >> On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >> >> >Is anyone familiar with this book: >> >http://www.crookedtimber.org/archives/000932.html >> > >> >And should someone send SKZB a copy? >> > >> >> I am not sure that it is apropos to /Tiassa/, although perhaps you are >> thinking of the oracle in /Teckla/, who was indeed a Tiassa. > >I believe oracularity is an official trait of Tiassas - see Mark >Mandel's page. > Yes, and I think he put "oracle" in there because, prior to /The Phoenix Guards/, the only Tiassa we had met with any noticible role was that same oracle. Khaavren appears in that same book, but, as noted in a prior post, has only a brief and non-speaking part. In other words, he was generalizing from one example. At this point, it should really have "Captain of the Phoenix Guards" and "Countess of Adrilankha" and "Pyrologist" and, er, something else which would be a spoiler for LoCB, under the "Occupation" heading, since we have now become acquainted somewhat more familiarly with at least 4 more Tiassas (I have left out Roaanac & Roaana & Malypon, since I am not sure that "Tiassa Heir" is really an occupation). > >> You will of course have noted that the oracle was quite correct in his >> response to Vlad. The problem, of course, was that Vlad failed to ask >> the correct question, but then, I am not sure Vlad could be expected >> to know the correct question. > >For once I wish an oracular pronouncement would be just wrong, but >it's too much fun for authors to avoid. > If the pronouncement is wrong, then obviously the oracle was not really an oracle. The proof of oracularity is in the truth of the event. Of course, a clever oracle might make nondisprovable pronouncements. >> I have sometimes toyed with the notion that, if one were to be granted >> 3 wishes, that the first wish would be to instantly know the >> consequences of all of ones actions (and as long as we're wishing, >> ones inactions). > >I believe this runs into paradox - see philosphers on the concept of >a Book of Knowledge. Ah, Goedel. Ruining everything with that darned incompleteness. Or did you have something else in mind? >> No doubt such an ability would have its own pitfalls. > >Destroying the universe might be considered a pitfall. > Not destroying the universe might also be considered a pitfall. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Dec 4 19:59:19 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 19:59:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: re Tiassa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > >> On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > >I believe oracularity is an official trait of Tiassas - see Mark > >Mandel's page. > > > > Yes, and I think he put "oracle" in there because, prior to /The > Phoenix Guards/, the only Tiassa we had met with any noticible role > was that same oracle. Khaavren appears in that same book, but, as > noted in a prior post, has only a brief and non-speaking part. > > In other words, he was generalizing from one example. > > At this point, it should really have "Captain of the Phoenix Guards" > and "Countess of Adrilankha" and "Pyrologist" and, er, something else > which would be a spoiler for LoCB, under the "Occupation" heading, > since we have now become acquainted somewhat more familiarly with at > least 4 more Tiassas (I have left out Roaanac & Roaana & Malypon, > since I am not sure that "Tiassa Heir" is really an occupation). Khaavren refers to his house's insight or foresight in FHYA, I believe, as does Daro. And Pyrology has a strong overlap with oraclism. > >For once I wish an oracular pronouncement would be just wrong, but > >it's too much fun for authors to avoid. > If the pronouncement is wrong, then obviously the oracle was not > really an oracle. Yep, or a god intervened, or who knows. As it is we're in butler-did-it territory. > >> I have sometimes toyed with the notion that, if one were to be granted > >> 3 wishes, that the first wish would be to instantly know the > >> consequences of all of ones actions (and as long as we're wishing, > >> ones inactions). > > > >I believe this runs into paradox - see philosphers on the concept of > >a Book of Knowledge. > > Ah, Goedel. Ruining everything with that darned incompleteness. I don't think this concerned axiomatic arithmetic - I can look on the web if you care. > >> No doubt such an ability would have its own pitfalls. > > > >Destroying the universe might be considered a pitfall. > > Not destroying the universe might also be considered a pitfall. An old poem from my days working underground at an accelerator in Geneva (hence beam - also Slimos refers to the shift safety responsible, PB and EB were parts of the detector, and the letters designate particles): Song of the Happy Slimos Late at night on shift you start to wonder about the beam. Are electrons claustrophobic? Can you hear the bunches scream As they hurtle towards each other? Do the Z's have time to pray For an extra femtosecond before they violently decay? Do the K's and pi's feel helpless as the magnet makes them curve? Does PB say to EB, "We must take what we deserve"? Are aliens kept frozen in the liquid He vats? Are the tunnels ruled by giant, glowing, radioactive rats? Are the things that live in darkness in the dirt outside the hall Slowing gnawing on the concrete? Are we really just in thrall To the whims of our computers? Does Vax control us all? Is this data really useful? Does God think it a crime To investigate his secrets, or are we just wasting time? If someone destroys the universe, we will start again from scratch. If you point me towards the fuse I think that I can find a match. From davids at kithrup.com Thu Dec 4 20:38:53 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 20:38:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: re Tiassa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, David Silberstein wrote: >> >> On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > >> >> I have sometimes toyed with the notion that, if one were to be granted >> >> 3 wishes, that the first wish would be to instantly know the >> >> consequences of all of ones actions (and as long as we're wishing, >> >> ones inactions). >> > >> >I believe this runs into paradox - see philosphers on the concept of >> >a Book of Knowledge. >> >> Ah, Goedel. Ruining everything with that darned incompleteness. > >I don't think this concerned axiomatic arithmetic - I can look on the >web if you care. > As I understand it, Goedel's Proof of Incompleteness has deeper ramifications than just mathematical systems. As I recall, other famously proofs of unknowability, eg., Turing's Halting Problem are just mappings of Goedel's Proof onto other systems. >> >> Not destroying the universe might also be considered a pitfall. > [snippage] > >If someone destroys the universe, we will start again from scratch. >If you point me towards the fuse I think that I can find a match. > Of course, then the question arises, how should a *proper* universe be designed? I recently stumbled across an anecdote, which you perhaps know of: According to a story well known in the physics community, after his death in 1958 Pauli was granted an audience with God. Pauli asked God why the fine structure constant has the value 1/(137.036...). God nodded, went to a blackboard, and began scribbling equations at a furious pace. Pauli watched Him with great satisfaction, but soon began shaking his head violently... http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Pauli From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Thu Dec 4 20:53:10 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 23:53:10 -0500 Subject: re Tiassa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FD00F36.2030804@earthlink.net> David Silberstein wrote: >Of course, then the question arises, how should a *proper* universe be >designed? > >I recently stumbled across an anecdote, which you perhaps know of: > > According to a story well known in the physics community, after his > death in 1958 Pauli was granted an audience with God. Pauli asked > God why the fine structure constant has the value 1/(137.036...). > God nodded, went to a blackboard, and began scribbling equations at > a furious pace. Pauli watched Him with great satisfaction, but soon > began shaking his head violently... > > http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Pauli > > I fail to understand the anecdote; specifically, why Pauli would shake his head violently at what God is scribbling. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From frank at exit.com Thu Dec 4 20:54:19 2003 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 20:54:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: re Tiassa In-Reply-To: <3FD00F36.2030804@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200312050454.hB54sJTZ018129@realtime.exit.com> Jose Marquez wrote: > I fail to understand the anecdote; specifically, why Pauli would shake > his head violently at what God is scribbling. Um, he saw an error in the math? -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From rone at ennui.org Thu Dec 4 21:20:27 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 21:20:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: re Tiassa In-Reply-To: <3FD00F36.2030804@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20031205052027.A1A9D26C32@boredom.ennui.org> Jose Marquez writes: David Silberstein wrote: > According to a story well known in the physics community, after his > death in 1958 Pauli was granted an audience with God. Pauli asked > God why the fine structure constant has the value 1/(137.036...). > God nodded, went to a blackboard, and began scribbling equations at > a furious pace. Pauli watched Him with great satisfaction, but soon > began shaking his head violently... I fail to understand the anecdote; specifically, why Pauli would shake his head violently at what God is scribbling. Because God is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From Talpianna at aol.com Thu Dec 4 21:36:54 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 00:36:54 EST Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: <116.2c4a666c.2d017376@aol.com> Political systems are based on underlying belief systems, consciously or not. Communism insisted that government actions, and education or re-education, could change basic human nature (a sort of para-Lysenkoism); they thereby justified horrific treatment of individuals in the present in the name of the future and the common good. And of course it didn't work. A lot of Western political theory is consciously or unconsciously based on Christianity--usually the worst parts of it. For example, the opposition to abortion is almost entirely based on theological statements about the nature and origin of human life; and the idea that sex is somehow naturally sinful, and that "fallen women" should suffer social sanctions, underlies opposition to contraception and blanket vilification of mothers on welfare. And of course Christianity has been used to bolster such respected traditions as slavery, the notion that the upper classes were inherently superior to the lower classes and deserved to rule them, and laws that valued the property of the rich over the lives of the poor--meaning a man who poached a rabbit on the Squire's land could be transported to Botany Bay for 20 years. You are no doubt familiar with Finagle's Law: Under carefully controlled laboratory conditions, people will do what they damn well please. I have created Braude's Corollary: And they will claim to be doing the will of God when they do it. I'm not commenting specifically on Card because I haven't read any of his stuff, but I have a similar problem with the later Heinlein. tal From Talpianna at aol.com Thu Dec 4 21:39:57 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 00:39:57 EST Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: <15.1df3105c.2d01742d@aol.com> In a message dated 12/4/2003 3:53:58 PM US Mountain Standard Time, matthew at infodancer.org writes: >>>I don't see any support for communism in Christianity unless you are coming into the question with a preconception that communism is a moral and desirable form of government/economics and other forms are neither moral nor desirable. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many of the early Christians did in fact practice communism, that is, they lived in communes and shared property. This voluntary communism has little or nothing to do with the Marxist-Leninist state-imposed version. tal From Talpianna at aol.com Thu Dec 4 21:52:13 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 00:52:13 EST Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: <199.236e8666.2d01770d@aol.com> In a message dated 12/4/2003 5:05:15 PM US Mountain Standard Time, Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM writes: >>"He is a lover of his country who rebukes and does >>not excuse its sins." - Frederick Douglass I'm reminded of something Winston Churchill once said (quote approximate): 'To say "My country, right or wrong!" is like saying, "My mother, drunk or sober!" If your mother is drunk, the thing to do is to sober her up!' tal From Talpianna at aol.com Thu Dec 4 21:53:40 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 00:53:40 EST Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: <77.1df147d4.2d017764@aol.com> In a message dated 12/4/2003 5:06:48 PM US Mountain Standard Time, mklahn at mac.com writes: >>>>>>>>"Please note that doing the same thing at whatever time it is that you're going to do it may or may not yield the same results on account of the whole rest of the situation having inevitably changed >from how it was when we attempted what we did, and in fact, maybe BECAUSE OF what we attempted. In other words, your milage may vary (widely)." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In other words, "Kids, don't try this at home." tal From Talpianna at aol.com Thu Dec 4 22:01:58 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 01:01:58 EST Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: <153.27bfa2e3.2d017956@aol.com> In a message dated 12/4/2003 5:16:54 PM US Mountain Standard Time, Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM writes: Though, as others have said, communism, in the world in which we live, is impossible to bring about. I suppose it could work in an isolated society, but then, that is not possible in this world, either (at least, not if the society is to last). Chris <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<< >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think the longest-lasting commune in America was the one in Amana, Iowa, which survived in communal form for about a century. There may have been longer-lived Shaker communities; but since the Shakers believed in celibacy, for most of that time they would have consisted of less than a dozen people. Brook Farm, the Transcendentalist experiment, was supposed to be communal, but the trouble was in getting the intellectuals to stop talking and actually farm. And of course, as I stressed before, all these were voluntary. There were a lot more in the mid-19th century, usually started by some charismatic prophet type, but they all ended in tears and recriminations. I suppose the closest thing to the original notion of communism would be an Israeli kibbutz; but I'm not really well enough informed about them. tal From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Dec 4 22:04:25 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 22:04:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: <15.1df3105c.2d01742d@aol.com> References: <15.1df3105c.2d01742d@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 Talpianna at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/4/2003 3:53:58 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > matthew at infodancer.org writes: > >>>I don't see any support for communism in Christianity unless you > are coming into the question with a preconception that communism > is a moral and desirable form of government/economics and other > forms are neither moral nor desirable. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > Many of the early Christians did in fact practice communism, that is, they > lived in communes and shared property. This voluntary communism has little or > nothing to do with the Marxist-Leninist state-imposed version. > > tal Some later Christian communities did so as well - the Shakers come to mind. I don't know of any persistently successful communes, unless the Quakers counted at some point. From davids at kithrup.com Thu Dec 4 22:12:08 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 22:12:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Some bits and pieces from PHOENIX Message-ID: An in-joke which has been known for a while is the one about the various music promoters: http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/1569 However, while reading the scene where Vlad is attending the musical entertainment for the Empress, I noticed that the names looked a bit familiar there as well. I realized that since Aibynn is Robin "Adnan" Anders, and Robin is a member of Boiled in Lead, the other members of Aibynn's band might well be Tuckerisms for that band as well So I pulled down my copy of /From the Ladle to the Grave/, and read the artist names, and the correspondence appears to be as follows: Aibynn == Robin "Adnan" Anders Thoddi == Todd Menton Dav-Hoel == David Stens-hoel Andler == Drew Miller It is my hope that if I am mistaken in any of the details and particulars, Steve will be so kind as to point it out. From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Thu Dec 4 22:16:38 2003 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 22:16:38 -0800 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: Comments interspersed below: >From: Talpianna at aol.com >To: gomi at speakeasy.net, dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: OSC on the virtues of writer's block >Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 00:36:54 EST > >Political systems are based on underlying belief systems, consciously or >not. > Communism insisted that government actions, and education or >re-education, >could change basic human nature (a sort of para-Lysenkoism); they thereby >justified horrific treatment of individuals in the present in the name of >the >future and the common good. And of course it didn't work. > >A lot of Western political theory is consciously or unconsciously based on >Christianity--usually the worst parts of it. For example, the opposition >to >abortion is almost entirely based on theological statements about the >nature and >origin of human life; and Err, I must beg to differ about the following point. Sex is not sinful, merely powerful and therefore to be respected. (1st commandment was to be fruitful and multiply- ergo lots of sex [and pregnancies]) It was set within limits for the protection of the parties involved. *the idea that sex is somehow naturally sinful, and* Much of that viewpoint came from "st. Augustine" of the Roman church, indulging in mysogyny after "conversion". He was WRONG! (P.S. The original sin was disobedience.) >that "fallen women" should suffer social sanctions, underlies opposition to >contraception and blanket vilification of mothers on welfare. to which I say: "let no one cast the first stone". . . "give to widows and orphans. . ." etc." Humans are meant to practise mercy and direct charity to those in need. One of the great failing of Western Civ. (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) (Of course, who else has tried? India?) > >And of course Christianity has been used to bolster such respected >traditions >as slavery, the notion that the upper classes were inherently superior to >the >lower classes and deserved to rule them, and laws that valued the property >of >the rich over the lives of the poor--meaning a man who poached a rabbit on >the Squire's land could be transported to Botany Bay for 20 years. It was the christian William Wilburforce in England and others in America who preached abolition of slavery and other reforms. If anything, Christianity teaches to people beware the wealthy and powerful. See Chesterton's Orthodoxy for a better explanation. > >You are no doubt familiar with Finagle's Law: Under carefully controlled >laboratory conditions, people will do what they damn well please. > >I have created Braude's Corollary: And they will claim to be doing the >will >of God when they do it. "Thou Shalt not take the Name of the Lord thy God in vain!" So let God defend himself, (and He will,) being certainly capable of it. > >I'm not commenting specifically on Card because I haven't read any of his >stuff, but I have a similar problem with the later Heinlein. > > tal Likewise, I do not intend to treat any here present with disrespect, and proffer my apologies if offense is taken. James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN _________________________________________________________________ Don?t worry if your Inbox will max out while you are enjoying the holidays. Get MSN Extra Storage! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es From Talpianna at aol.com Thu Dec 4 22:44:29 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 01:44:29 EST Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: <135.28c195e4.2d01834d@aol.com> In a message dated 12/4/2003 11:21:30 PM US Mountain Standard Time, gomi at pollywog.com writes: >>>>>>>>> and the idea that sex is somehow naturally sinful, and that "fallen > women" should suffer social sanctions, underlies opposition to > contraception and blanket vilification of mothers on welfare. You cannot be serious. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<< I'm perfectly serious. I don't know how old you are, but I remember the sexual revolution of the 60s very well (though a noncombatant); and the outrage that women could, thanks to the Pill, have sex whenever and with whomever they pleased, without the punishment of producing a bastard and being frowned on by respectable society. I'm not advocating promiscuity, or denying the existence of welfare fraud; but it was religious/moral outrage that fueled the flames. Not unlike the present attitude to AIDS and gay marriage. And what on earth, other than moral judgment, would justify the government, or anyone else, telling other people, even married ones, that they should not practice contraception if they choose? XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX >>>>>>Right. And Islam has been used to bolster such respected traditions as using high explosives to drive high-speed nails through small children and killing your own daughter when she won't commit suicide after being raped. I suspect, however, that you would not be so swift to heap opprobrium on that particular religion thereby. Affirm/deny? <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<< >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Deny absolutely. I chose Christianity as an example because I was considering religious effect on Western, not Middle Eastern, policies; and there has been entirely too much Muslim-bashing lately. I tend to agree with a lot of it, but it's lost a lot of its effect because of repetition. Also, there is some evidence that the "honor killings" are based on tribal culture rather than religion--not that that makes them less abhorrent. I hold no brief for Islam, largely because the supposed moderates do not denounce the killings you mention the way decent Protestant and Catholic leaders do with respect to the similar atrocities on both sides in Ulster; but there are different varieties of it, and some do not agree with the extremists. How could you possibly think that I, as a woman, would be less appalled by the extremities of Sharia law, knowing that it is women who suffer the most from it? talpianna From Talpianna at aol.com Thu Dec 4 23:07:01 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 02:07:01 EST Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: <7b.1e24295d.2d018895@aol.com> >>>>>>>>>In a message dated 12/4/2003 11:28:00 PM US Mountain Standard Time, umbraenoctis at hotmail.com writes: Err, I must beg to differ about the following point. Sex is not sinful, merely powerful and therefore to be respected. (1st commandment was to be fruitful and multiply- ergo lots of sex [and pregnancies]) It was set within limits for the protection of the parties involved. *the idea that sex is somehow naturally sinful, and* Much of that viewpoint came from "st. Augustine" of the Roman church, indulging in mysogyny after "conversion". He was WRONG! (P.S. The original sin was disobedience.) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't disagree at all with these and your following comments; I think you are expressing the *real* teachings of Christianity. But, remember Braude's Corollary: Just as the best actions were done out of Christian motives, so were the worst. Do you know Charles Williams's definition of the Unforgivable Sin, the Sin against the Holy Ghost? It is "to know the good as evil." In other words, to perceive the right thing to do as the wrong thing to do. If Torquemada, the Grand Inquisitor, had heard a still, small voice telling him God did not want him to burn people alive because they held views on the nature of the Trinity slightly different from his, he would have replied, "Get thee behind me, Satan!" It is the unforgivable sin not because God's mercy is limited, but even God can't forgive a sin that isn't repented of because the sinner is proud of it. Someone who recognized Josef Mengele, the Nazi doctor known as the Angel of Death for his experiments on concentration camp victims, when he was hiding out in South America, and asked him if he had any regrets about what he'd done. His reply: he regretted that the Nazis had failed to exterminate the entire Jewish population of Europe. If Christianity is the dominant belief system, you will try to convince yourself that what you want to do--providing food and shelter for the homeless, slave trading, caring for lepers, burning heretics--is Christian. Another Biblical quote: "Not everyone who sayeth unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven." A couple of instances: During the Great Hunger, the Irish potato famine, the only people who actively and continuously tried to feed the hungry throughout were the Quakers; the absentee landlords of Ireland exported the food produced on their estates rather than sharing with the peasants. And one of the great scandals, only recently publicized, of Ireland in the last century is the Magdalene laundries, where "immoral" girls, sometimes guilty of no more than flirting, or being rape victims, were confined doing virtually slave labor, sometimes for the rest of their lives. They were run by the Magdalene Sisters. I'm sure both the Magdalenes and the Quakers were convinced that they were doing God's will. I think we'd agree that only the Quakers were right. I'm sure that you and I would agree that the wicked things done in the name of Christianity, from burning witches to assassinating doctors who perform abortions, were perversions of Christianity. But those who do them would say the same about our views. My point was that a lot of regrettable political actions have claimed to be based on Christianity; I did not mention that most of the reforms have too, because (1) I took that as a given (Wilberforce, William Booth, Dorothy Dix, etc.); and (2) that wasn't actually the topic. Oh, BTW, the disgust at sex in Augustine comes from his Manichaean days. Like Neoplatonism, Manichaeanism (and its descendant Catharism, aka the Albigensian heresy) believed in a radical dissociation between flesh and spirit, with all the material world being negative. The perfect act of Cathar worship was to starve oneself to death. Kinda hard to believe they invented courtly love, isn't it? talpianna From bonham15 at cox.net Thu Dec 4 23:11:55 2003 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 01:11:55 -0600 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block References: <20031204235904.1B64326C34@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <004f01c3baff$10fa6ce0$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> > > Tradition is only useful if a) we understand its genesis, and b) the > context in which it originated is still pertinent. Otherwise, it's > just doing things "because we've always done it this way." also known in some circles as 'the tyranny of the dead'... being bound to the previous generations of legislation... sometimes good sometimes bad :) andy From matthew at infodancer.org Thu Dec 4 23:32:47 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 01:32:47 -0600 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: <20031204235904.1B64326C34@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20031204235904.1B64326C34@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <20031205073247.GC21964@infodancer.org> On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 03:59:04PM -0800, rone wrote: > Gomi no Sensei writes: > The Edmund Burke quote on tradition has always seemed apropos to me: > "Tradition means giving a vote to most obscure of all classes, our > ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to > submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely > happen to be walking about. All democrats object to men being > disqualified by the accident of birth; tradition objects to their > being disqualified by the accident of death. Democracy tells us not > to neglect a good man's opinion, even if he is our groom; tradition > asks us not to neglect a good man's opinion, even if he is our > father." > > Tradition is only useful if a) we understand its genesis, and b) the > context in which it originated is still pertinent. Otherwise, it's > just doing things "because we've always done it this way." Actually, tradition is useful in precisely those situations where we do not understand its genesis or the context in which it originated. That is, tradition is the force that argues for continuing to do things the way that *is known to work* (at least, for evolutionary values of "work") rather than changing something that we think we understand as being safe to change... but are not necessarily correct. Consider one of the most ancient (known) bodies of "tradition" in our history, that of Judaism. There are many elements of the Jewish tradition that are wholly practical; I shall put forth kosher food as an excellent example. Nowadays, we can look at the traditions concerning kosher food and understand that food prepared in that specific way was less prone to disease or spoilage than foods prepared in other ways. (I don't know enough about kosher to give any really good examples). But at the time, did the Jews understand that they were preventing germs or parasites from infecting their food, and that their kosher food practices resulted in substantially improved food quality, reduced disease rates, and so on? It is doubtful that they understood the *why* of any of this, even if some of them understood the relationship. But they did not HAVE to understand the relationship. It was a tradition. For so long as the tradition remained strong, they would follow it *whether they understood or not*. Sometimes that "follow blindly" course has good results, and sometimes it has bad results. It's hard to tell when you don't understand the reasons for the results you get. But tradition allows for an additional fact: anything that has become a tradition *is survivable*. That is, your ancestors did it *and they lived*, at least as a culture. You should try to understand the root causes of a particular tradition before advocating it be tossed out, but that understanding is not required in order for the tradition to be useful; in fact, the tradition is most useful in the absence of understanding. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Dec 5 00:01:29 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 00:01:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: <20031205073247.GC21964@infodancer.org> References: <20031204235904.1B64326C34@boredom.ennui.org> <20031205073247.GC21964@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: > Consider one of the most ancient (known) bodies of "tradition" in > our history, that of Judaism. There are many elements of the > Jewish tradition that are wholly practical; I shall put forth > kosher food as an excellent example. Nowadays, we can look at > the traditions concerning kosher food and understand that food > prepared in that specific way was less prone to disease or > spoilage than foods prepared in other ways. (I don't know enough > about kosher to give any really good examples). I think this is arguable - most things appear (from a secular perspective) to be considered unclean because they don't fit someone's category of what's natural in terms of scales or foot structure - maybe pigs with trichinosis were worth avoiding, and maybe milk has some bad chemical reaction with beef on wooden plates, I don't know - or squeamishness about blood. To me the greatest advantage of these laws was that it set the community apart from their neighbors, as did circumcision. This separation probably brought a lot of persecution but a lot of cohesion as well. On the other hand, maybe G*d thinks it's bad to eat rabbits and scallops and llamas, as well as golden retrievers, and maybe G*d wasn't clear about swordfish because He hadn't thought about it. From bonham15 at cox.net Fri Dec 5 00:32:03 2003 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 02:32:03 -0600 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block References: <20031204235904.1B64326C34@boredom.ennui.org> <20031205073247.GC21964@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <000601c3bb0a$4273d3a0$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> one thing about 'kosher'. its a hell of a good way to secure the supply of your food... i don't mean in the economic sense of a plentiful food supply, i mean in the sense of you've got a reasonable idea of how your food gets to you, and who has handled that food and under what conditions. also, i happen to like the taste of kosher salt more than normal table salt. i think its because its basically sea salt. i could be horrifically wrong though, but that hasn't stopped me from charging blindly ahead in a fit of ignorance before though. andy i think my favorite one was someone asking me if the krispie kreme donuts i sell were kosher... how in the hell should i know? > On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: > > > Consider one of the most ancient (known) bodies of "tradition" in > > our history, that of Judaism. There are many elements of the > > Jewish tradition that are wholly practical; I shall put forth > > kosher food as an excellent example. Nowadays, we can look at > > the traditions concerning kosher food and understand that food > > prepared in that specific way was less prone to disease or > > spoilage than foods prepared in other ways. (I don't know enough > > about kosher to give any really good examples). > > > I think this is arguable - most things appear (from a secular perspective) > to be considered unclean because they don't fit someone's category of > what's natural in terms of scales or foot structure - maybe pigs with > trichinosis were worth avoiding, and maybe milk has some bad chemical > reaction with beef on wooden plates, I don't know - or squeamishness about > blood. To me the greatest advantage of these laws was that it set the > community apart from their neighbors, as did circumcision. This > separation probably brought a lot of persecution but a lot of cohesion as > well. > > On the other hand, maybe G*d thinks it's bad to eat rabbits and scallops > and llamas, as well as golden retrievers, and maybe G*d wasn't clear about > swordfish because He hadn't thought about it. From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Dec 5 00:43:09 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 02:43:09 -0600 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: References: <20031204235904.1B64326C34@boredom.ennui.org> <20031205073247.GC21964@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20031205084309.GD21964@infodancer.org> On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 12:01:29AM -0800, Philip Hart wrote: > On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: > > Consider one of the most ancient (known) bodies of "tradition" in > > our history, that of Judaism. There are many elements of the > > Jewish tradition that are wholly practical; I shall put forth > > kosher food as an excellent example. Nowadays, we can look at > > the traditions concerning kosher food and understand that food > > prepared in that specific way was less prone to disease or > > spoilage than foods prepared in other ways. (I don't know enough > > about kosher to give any really good examples). > I think this is arguable - most things appear (from a secular perspective) > to be considered unclean because they don't fit someone's category of > what's natural in terms of scales or foot structure - maybe pigs with > trichinosis were worth avoiding, and maybe milk has some bad chemical > reaction with beef on wooden plates, I don't know - or squeamishness about > blood. To really argue the point on these specific traditions would require someone well-versed in both food preperation science and the rules of this particular tradition. I am confident that some (but not all) of the rules do translate into behaviors that *have the effect of* reducing the incidence of certain problems with bad food suffered by other cultures. In the context of this discussion it doesn't matter why the tradition was instituted. What matters is that it has a beneficial effect. > To me the greatest advantage of these laws was that it set the > community apart from their neighbors, as did circumcision. This > separation probably brought a lot of persecution but a lot of cohesion as > well. Cultural strength and cohesion is certainly an evolutionary plus for a tradition. Remember that a tradition is only successful if it continues to be passed down to new followers. I'm not trying to argue relative merits here. > On the other hand, maybe G*d thinks it's bad to eat rabbits and scallops > and llamas, as well as golden retrievers, and maybe G*d wasn't clear about > swordfish because He hadn't thought about it. You're arguing with a strawman. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Dec 5 00:58:11 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 00:58:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: <20031205084309.GD21964@infodancer.org> References: <20031204235904.1B64326C34@boredom.ennui.org> <20031205073247.GC21964@infodancer.org> <20031205084309.GD21964@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: > On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 12:01:29AM -0800, Philip Hart wrote: > > I think this is arguable - most things appear (from a secular perspective) > > to be considered unclean because they don't fit someone's category of > > what's natural in terms of scales or foot structure - maybe pigs with > > trichinosis were worth avoiding, and maybe milk has some bad chemical > > reaction with beef on wooden plates, I don't know - or squeamishness about > > blood. > > To really argue the point on these specific traditions would > require someone well-versed in both food preperation science and > the rules of this particular tradition. I am confident that some > (but not all) of the rules do translate into behaviors that *have > the effect of* reducing the incidence of certain problems with > bad food suffered by other cultures. > In the context of this discussion it doesn't matter why the > tradition was instituted. What matters is that it has a > beneficial effect. I have read a little bit about this subject over the years for various reasons, and I read the food science book On Food And Cooking before going to sleep, but as best I recall the kosher laws have some Just-So stories behind them but no hard evidence. Not to go all Stephen Jay Gould on you - I like JS stories - and maybe your general point can be validated - I just think it would be rather difficult. > > On the other hand, maybe G*d thinks it's bad to eat rabbits and scallops > > and llamas, as well as golden retrievers, and maybe G*d wasn't clear about > > swordfish because He hadn't thought about it. > > You're arguing with a strawman. No, (passing up the straight line), I'm making a vivid but feeble joke. From casey at the-bat.net Fri Dec 5 06:36:30 2003 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 09:36:30 -0500 Subject: re Tiassa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002801c3bb3d$2ce52600$7802a8c0@Prophnt2.local> Philip Hart wrote: > > Is anyone familiar with this book: > http://www.crookedtimber.org/archives/000932.html > > And should someone send SKZB a copy? I don't think so. We mess with his creative process enough as it is. Casey From casey at the-bat.net Fri Dec 5 06:58:08 2003 From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 09:58:08 -0500 Subject: re Tiassa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002901c3bb40$31d6d610$7802a8c0@Prophnt2.local> David Silberstein wrote: > As I understand it, Goedel's Proof of Incompleteness has > deeper ramifications than just mathematical systems. As I > recall, other famously proofs of unknowability, eg., Turing's > Halting Problem are just mappings of Goedel's Proof onto > other systems. Yes. The way I learned it, any system complex enough to contain simple arithmetic can be (at best) either complete (all things that are true are provable) or correct (all things provable are true) but not both. From jimkatz at ix.netcom.com Fri Dec 5 07:47:57 2003 From: jimkatz at ix.netcom.com (Jim Katz) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 10:47:57 -0500 Subject: re Tiassa References: <20031205052027.A1A9D26C32@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <3FD0A8AD.1900203A@ix.netcom.com> No, the point is really about Pauli himself, he was known in the physics world as the "Conscience of Physics", i.e. always checking everybody's work for "correctness" in both mathematics and physics, which at that level are so closely intertwined it's hard to tell them apart. He's probably spinning in his grave at some of the recent scandals in the physics world.... Jim, a physics major in another lifetime... rone wrote: > > Jose Marquez writes: > David Silberstein wrote: > > According to a story well known in the physics community, after his > > death in 1958 Pauli was granted an audience with God. Pauli asked > > God why the fine structure constant has the value 1/(137.036...). > > God nodded, went to a blackboard, and began scribbling equations at > > a furious pace. Pauli watched Him with great satisfaction, but soon > > began shaking his head violently... > I fail to understand the anecdote; specifically, why Pauli would shake > his head violently at what God is scribbling. > > Because God is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. > > rone > -- > "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" > "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" > -- RICHH -- ! Jim Katz ! Using Clarion for Windows - Always looking for the simpler solution. ! NetBeans Dev From alexx at panix.com Fri Dec 5 09:21:41 2003 From: alexx at panix.com (Alexx Kay) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:21:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: from "Gomi no Sensei" at Dec 04, 2003 03:35:51 PM Message-ID: <200312051721.hB5HLfS01136@panix1.panix.com> > I've often thought that the more useful distinction is between those who > believe that humans are a blank slate that is only civilized through external > influence (which must be applied), and those who believe humans are innately > good and only acquire evil tendencies due to pernicious external influences > (which they must be protected from). You've left out at least one observed set of people. Those that believe humans are innately *evil*, and must be carefully raised to suppress that inner nature. I do not agree with (or like) these people, but they do exist. Alexx Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers. alexx at carolingiaSPAMBL@CK.org http://www.panix.com/~alexx "Jaka has turned up in my life on three or four occasions, but always at a distance or in such a way that it was easy enough to avoid her. Which I do. Having drawn her umpty-ump times, I know the difference between an approximation and the genuine article. Stare at her for a few seconds. "Isn't that interesting? Right, that's enough staring," and back to whatever I was doing." -- Dave Sim, in correspondence with Alan Moore about _From Hell_ From pulmon at comcast.net Fri Dec 5 09:43:04 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:43:04 -0500 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: <20031204235611.5161F26C2D@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20031204235611.5161F26C2D@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <7ADFA8EA-274A-11D8-A167-0003938F1608@comcast.net> I suspect the fundamental problem is the miscegenation of radical right wing politics with radical Christian beliefs in the current incarnation of our government. Historically neither the conservative nor the liberal philosophies derive their positions from religion. One could argue that there is more theology in liberalism, in that it explicitly denies the concept of directed reincarnation (its fundamental concept is the creation of the society where an individual can be born into any situation and have an equal chance of success). Today's government (in the US, for any ex-US listmembers) talks conservatively but acts radically. It is an even more aggressive form of the Reaganesque Borrow-and-Spend economics of the 80s, and the objective seems to be the polarization of our society into haves and have-nots. So it appears to me that this argument is not about fundamentals, but rather current incarnations. As an aside, IMHO, an atheist must be as strong a believer as a religious person--both have determined positions on a fact that cannot be proven. The only non-belief driven position is that of the agnostic. Ken On Dec 4, 2003, at 6:56 PM, rone wrote: > Philip Hart writes: > On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Gomi no Sensei wrote: >> Politics ultimately derives as a system that attempts to solve >> large-scale >> problems of human society, > This seems insufficiently cynical or perhaps Darwinist to me. > > You're trying to taint the definition of politics with its current > state of affairs. I think pe is trying to speak of politics in an > ideal sense. > > I don't think this has anything to do with liberalism or > conservatism, > though in my view liberals are the less belief-driven lately. > > I do not agree with your view. > > rone > -- > "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" > "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" > -- RICHH > From pulmon at comcast.net Fri Dec 5 09:45:24 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:45:24 -0500 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You seem to have a unique form of dyslexia--I add sheepishly. On Dec 4, 2003, at 7:04 PM, Gomi no Sensei wrote: > On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > >> Philip Hart wrote: >>> I don't think communism is a workable form of govt - but I'm >>> not a Christian. > > I just want to say I read this as 'I don't think communism is a > workable > form of goat', which confused me severely. > > pe > > From alexx at panix.com Fri Dec 5 09:45:59 2003 From: alexx at panix.com (Alexx Kay) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:45:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: from "Philip Hart" at Dec 05, 2003 12:01:29 AM Message-ID: <200312051745.hB5HjxO08517@panix1.panix.com> > > To me the greatest advantage of these laws was that it set the > community apart from their neighbors, as did circumcision. This > separation probably brought a lot of persecution but a lot of cohesion as > well. There is an intriguing and relevant evolutionary theory that this reminds me of. Consider the problem of introducing genetic change to a population. If the population is very large, and interbreeds essentially at random, then mutations, even favorable ones, will tend to get "damped out", and vanish before having a chance to become part of the general genome. Such a species is very stable, but less likely to be able to adapt quickly to the next environmental change. One "solution" to this, which evolution appears to have "invented", is Culture. That is, an arbitrary set of behaviours that seperates the species into small breeding pools. These pools are small enough that favorable mutations will often spread throughout the pool, rather than be damped out by widespread interbreeding. But this is only useful to the species as a whole if there is a small tendency to breed *outside* of the cultural pool also; say, one or two instances in any given generation. This allows the established-in- one-pool favorable mutations to hop over to a neighboring pool, and perhaps establish themselves there. By such hops, a truly favorable mutation can gradually spread to the whole species. This theory was originally come up with to explain observations of culture groups in lower primates. They had Culture groups based on specific patterns of behavior that seemed completely unrelated to evolutionary fitness, until seen in this larger scale of species-wide evolution. If true, this theory has some interesting implications. Language evolved as a tool for easy differentiation of Culture, not because of intelligence. And our tendency to villify (but occasionally romanticize) the Alien, is actually an expression of an evolutionary imperative that is older than the words which could explain it. [Please note that I don't think this *excuses* racial predjudice. I do think it goes a long way towards *explaining* it, however...] Alexx Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers. alexx at carolingiaSPAMBL@CK.org http://www.panix.com/~alexx "If you achieve success, you will get applause. Enjoy it -- but never quite believe it." -- Robert Montgomery From alexx at panix.com Fri Dec 5 09:49:30 2003 From: alexx at panix.com (Alexx Kay) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:49:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block (fwd) Message-ID: <200312051749.hB5HnV409270@panix1.panix.com> Whoops, meant to send this to the list: Forwarded message: > Subject: Re: OSC on the virtues of writer's block > To: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM > Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:28:01 -0500 (EST) > From: "Alexx Kay" > > > I've often found I use the phrase "do as I say, not > > as I do". Why? Well, cause I'll occasionaly take actions, > > for various reasons, that go against my own beliefs. > > Of course, if I were to choose to "do as you do, not > as you say", that would be equally consistent, since > that's what *you* do :-) > > I think this is also an appropriate place to invoke > Economist Joke #1: > > Two economists are walking past a car dealership. > The first points at a fancy car and says "Boy, I > really want that car." They continue walking. > After they pass the dealership without stopping, > the second economist replies, "Obviously false." > > Alexx > > > Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers. > alexx at carolingiaSPAMBL@CK.org http://www.panix.com/~alexx > "On the other hand, Casablanca doesn't start off with a credit sequence > showing Bogart romping around half-naked and wet on a trapeze, either, and > contains no discernible torture sequence involving a woman in an electrified > steel bikini. Always gotta be some room for improvement." > -- A review of Barb Wire From alexx at panix.com Fri Dec 5 09:50:10 2003 From: alexx at panix.com (Alexx Kay) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:50:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block (fwd) Message-ID: <200312051750.hB5HoA209765@panix1.panix.com> And this one. Forwarded message: > Subject: Re: OSC on the virtues of writer's block > To: Talpianna at aol.com > Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:32:05 -0500 (EST) > From: "Alexx Kay" > > > Like Neoplatonism, Manichaeanism (and its descendant Catharism, aka the > > Albigensian heresy) believed in a radical dissociation between flesh and spirit, with > > all the material world being negative. The perfect act of Cathar worship was > > to starve oneself to death. Kinda hard to believe they invented courtly love, > > isn't it? > > Not really. Courtly Love is all about types of love which are never going > to find any physical outlet. Except perhaps, in making the lover(s) less > healthy: > 15. Every lover regularly turns pale in the presence of his beloved. > 16. When a lover suddenly catches sight of his beloved his heart palpitates. > 23. He whom the thought of love vexes, eats and sleeps very little. > > Alexx > > > Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers. > alexx at carolingiaSPAMBL@CK.org http://www.panix.com/~alexx > "Hello, I'd like to join the French Foreign Legion." > "Fine. We'll need your name, Social Security number, and the name of > the girl you're trying to forget. That is, if you're up to it. If > you're not going to start crying or anything. I know it's painful." > -- Cowboy Wally's Sands of Blood From pulmon at comcast.net Fri Dec 5 09:55:45 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:55:45 -0500 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: <7b.1e24295d.2d018895@aol.com> References: <7b.1e24295d.2d018895@aol.com> Message-ID: <4055A1B3-274C-11D8-A167-0003938F1608@comcast.net> When you say that both the Magdalenes and the Quakers thought that they were doing God's will, and that only the Quakers were right...what gives YOU the inside path to truth? Maybe, in fact it was the Magdalenes who were following the true desires of their God. Ken On Dec 5, 2003, at 2:07 AM, Talpianna at aol.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>> In a message dated 12/4/2003 11:28:00 PM US Mountain Standard >>>>>>>>>> Time, > umbraenoctis at hotmail.com writes: > Err, I must beg to differ about the following point. Sex is not sinful, > merely powerful and therefore to be respected. (1st commandment was to > be > fruitful and multiply- ergo lots of sex [and pregnancies]) It was set > within > limits for the protection of the parties involved. > > *the idea that sex is somehow naturally sinful, and* > Much of that viewpoint came from "st. Augustine" of the Roman church, > indulging in mysogyny after "conversion". He was WRONG! (P.S. The > original > sin was disobedience.) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > I don't disagree at all with these and your following comments; I > think > you are expressing the *real* teachings of Christianity. But, remember > Braude's Corollary: Just as the best actions were done out of > Christian motives, so > were the worst. Do you know Charles Williams's definition of the > Unforgivable > Sin, the Sin against the Holy Ghost? It is "to know the good as > evil." In > other words, to perceive the right thing to do as the wrong thing to > do. If > Torquemada, the Grand Inquisitor, had heard a still, small voice > telling him God > did not want him to burn people alive because they held views on the > nature > of the Trinity slightly different from his, he would have replied, > "Get thee > behind me, Satan!" It is the unforgivable sin not because God's mercy > is > limited, but even God can't forgive a sin that isn't repented of > because the sinner > is proud of it. > > Someone who recognized Josef Mengele, the Nazi doctor known as the > Angel of > Death for his experiments on concentration camp victims, when he was > hiding out > in South America, and asked him if he had any regrets about what he'd > done. > His reply: he regretted that the Nazis had failed to exterminate the > entire > Jewish population of Europe. > > If Christianity is the dominant belief system, you will try to convince > yourself that what you want to do--providing food and shelter for the > homeless, > slave trading, caring for lepers, burning heretics--is Christian. > Another > Biblical quote: "Not everyone who sayeth unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall > enter into the > kingdom of Heaven." > > A couple of instances: During the Great Hunger, the Irish potato > famine, the > only people who actively and continuously tried to feed the hungry > throughout > were the Quakers; the absentee landlords of Ireland exported the food > produced on their estates rather than sharing with the peasants. > > And one of the great scandals, only recently publicized, of Ireland in > the > last century is the Magdalene laundries, where "immoral" girls, > sometimes guilty > of no more than flirting, or being rape victims, were confined doing > virtually slave labor, sometimes for the rest of their lives. They > were run by the > Magdalene Sisters. > > I'm sure both the Magdalenes and the Quakers were convinced that they > were > doing God's will. I think we'd agree that only the Quakers were right. > > I'm sure that you and I would agree that the wicked things done in the > name > of Christianity, from burning witches to assassinating doctors who > perform > abortions, were perversions of Christianity. But those who do them > would say the > same about our views. My point was that a lot of regrettable political > actions have claimed to be based on Christianity; I did not mention > that most of the > reforms have too, because (1) I took that as a given (Wilberforce, > William > Booth, Dorothy Dix, etc.); and (2) that wasn't actually the topic. > > Oh, BTW, the disgust at sex in Augustine comes from his Manichaean > days. > Like Neoplatonism, Manichaeanism (and its descendant Catharism, aka the > Albigensian heresy) believed in a radical dissociation between flesh > and spirit, with > all the material world being negative. The perfect act of Cathar > worship was > to starve oneself to death. Kinda hard to believe they invented > courtly love, > isn't it? > > talpianna From pulmon at comcast.net Fri Dec 5 09:58:25 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:58:25 -0500 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: <000601c3bb0a$4273d3a0$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> References: <20031204235904.1B64326C34@boredom.ennui.org> <20031205073247.GC21964@infodancer.org> <000601c3bb0a$4273d3a0$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> Message-ID: <9F7712DA-274C-11D8-A167-0003938F1608@comcast.net> To be Kosher food must be certified by an appropriate organization. If it is not certified, it is not kosher. On Dec 5, 2003, at 3:32 AM, bonham15 wrote: > > one thing about 'kosher'. its a hell of a good way to secure the > supply of > your food... i don't mean in the economic sense of a plentiful food > supply, > i mean in the sense of you've got a reasonable idea of how your food > gets to > you, and who has handled that food and under what conditions. also, i > happen to like the taste of kosher salt more than normal table salt. i > think its because its basically sea salt. i could be horrifically wrong > though, but that hasn't stopped me from charging blindly ahead in a > fit of > ignorance before though. > > andy > > i think my favorite one was someone asking me if the krispie kreme > donuts i > sell were kosher... how in the hell should i know? > > >> On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: >> >>> Consider one of the most ancient (known) bodies of "tradition" in >>> our history, that of Judaism. There are many elements of the >>> Jewish tradition that are wholly practical; I shall put forth >>> kosher food as an excellent example. Nowadays, we can look at >>> the traditions concerning kosher food and understand that food >>> prepared in that specific way was less prone to disease or >>> spoilage than foods prepared in other ways. (I don't know enough >>> about kosher to give any really good examples). >> >> >> I think this is arguable - most things appear (from a secular >> perspective) >> to be considered unclean because they don't fit someone's category of >> what's natural in terms of scales or foot structure - maybe pigs with >> trichinosis were worth avoiding, and maybe milk has some bad chemical >> reaction with beef on wooden plates, I don't know - or squeamishness >> about >> blood. To me the greatest advantage of these laws was that it set the >> community apart from their neighbors, as did circumcision. This >> separation probably brought a lot of persecution but a lot of >> cohesion as >> well. >> >> On the other hand, maybe G*d thinks it's bad to eat rabbits and >> scallops >> and llamas, as well as golden retrievers, and maybe G*d wasn't clear >> about >> swordfish because He hadn't thought about it. > From dd-b at dd-b.net Fri Dec 5 10:10:06 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 05 Dec 2003 12:10:06 -0600 Subject: re Tiassa In-Reply-To: <3FD00F36.2030804@earthlink.net> References: <3FD00F36.2030804@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Jose Marquez writes: > David Silberstein wrote: > > >Of course, then the question arises, how should a *proper* universe be > >designed? > > > >I recently stumbled across an anecdote, which you perhaps know of: > > > > According to a story well known in the physics community, after his > > death in 1958 Pauli was granted an audience with God. Pauli asked > > God why the fine structure constant has the value 1/(137.036...). > > God nodded, went to a blackboard, and began scribbling equations at > > a furious pace. Pauli watched Him with great satisfaction, but soon > > began shaking his head violently... > > > > http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Pauli > I fail to understand the anecdote; specifically, why Pauli would shake > his head violently at what God is scribbling. Because God is getting it *wrong*. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From mklahn at mac.com Fri Dec 5 11:26:50 2003 From: mklahn at mac.com (Matthew Klahn) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 13:26:50 -0600 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: <7ADFA8EA-274A-11D8-A167-0003938F1608@comcast.net> References: <20031204235611.5161F26C2D@boredom.ennui.org> <7ADFA8EA-274A-11D8-A167-0003938F1608@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Dec 5, 2003, at 11:43 , Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > As an aside, IMHO, an atheist must be as strong a believer as a > religious person--both have determined positions on a fact that cannot > be proven. The only non-belief driven position is that of the > agnostic. OK, not to turn this into alt.atheism nor to begin any flame-wars, but no. There are two types of athiests, to begin with: so-called "strong " and "weak" atheists. "Strong" atheism can be summed up as "I believe there is no God" and weak "I do not believe there is a God" (and agnosticism: "I have no belief for or against"). It's a subtle distinction, but a clear one. People who make a claim have the burden of proof for that claim, which I would define as the responsibility for defending your claims with some concrete evidence or explanation that can be verified and fits within the common experiential framework we all share. The person making any claim has the burden of proof, but there is a problem when we're talking about supernatural claims. Claiming that something occurred that is neither reproducible nor has any explanation that fits within the previously observed behaviors of our universe means that you have to prove that such a thing occurred in the matter that you ascribe to it. If I say "I don't believe that the event that you describe could have possibly occurred, so please prove to me that it did", I am not making a claim; I am asking you for evidence that backs up your own claim. This would be similar to weak atheism: "I don't believe that your god exists, so please provide proof". If I say "I believe that the event you described did not happen", I am making a counter-claim and should provide the evidence that I have for my belief. I might have witnesses who did not see what you claimed to see or other physical evidence that shows that it could not have happened the way you claim, and/or I might find contractions or paradoxes in your claim that point to seeming impossibility of the event as described. However, you would still have a burden of proof to give evidence for the supposed event, and a lack of any evidence is a strong indication that you're claims are sketchy.* This approach, then, would be more in line with strong atheism, and most commonly strong atheists (like me) use contradictory claims in the four gospels (differing recounts of the resurrection story, empty tomb or no, etc.) which are all supposed to be equally factual as at least one argument against Christianity. Though, I have to say that most strong atheists also encompass the attributes that I've ascribed to weak atheists above, so there must be at least a subset of strong atheists who hold "weak atheist" beliefs. At any rate, the idea that you should not make claims without at least some evidence that is not purely experiential (memory, etc.) is highly recommended if you want to be believed. I can easily dismiss impossible events if there is no evidence simply because I choose to not believe events unless multiple sources of information back up the claim. *Application of Occam's razor (http://skepdic.com/occam.html) is highly recommended as a tool for determining the likelihood a given explanation for/of an event. And, please don't call atheism or science a religion; religion implies a lot more than "a set of beliefs". I'm not implying that you are doing so, but it _may_ have been what was implied by your statement I've quoted above. You do both atheism and religion a disservice if you call atheism a religion. ( <- The most inflamatory statement in this whole email, isn't it? :) ) -- Matthew S. Klahn Software Architect, CodeTek Studios, Inc. http://www.codetek.com From Talpianna at aol.com Fri Dec 5 12:17:35 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 15:17:35 EST Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: <14d.27a909a6.2d0241df@aol.com> In a message dated 12/5/2003 1:43:14 AM US Mountain Standard Time, matthew at infodancer.org writes: > To me the greatest advantage of these laws was that it set the > community apart from their neighbors, as did circumcision. This > separation probably brought a lot of persecution but a lot of cohesion as > well. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One of the problems was, as the prophets continually pointed out, the Israelites' persistent whoring after strange gods-- understandable when one compares the austerity of Judaism to the more lively activities of the various fertility cults of the Fertile Crescent. So drawing the lines so that one couldn't be a Jew and participate in other rites was definitely an object. Remember the famous prohibition against eating a kid seethed in its mother's milk? That was the communion meal of the Orphic Mysteries. talpianna From rone at ennui.org Fri Dec 5 12:45:07 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:45:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: <199.236e8666.2d01770d@aol.com> Message-ID: <20031205204507.1BF8F26C32@boredom.ennui.org> Talpianna at aol.com writes: I'm reminded of something Winston Churchill once said (quote approximate): 'To say "My country, right or wrong!" is like saying, "My mother, drunk or sober!" If your mother is drunk, the thing to do is to sober her up!' Actually, G. K. Chesterton said that. The Winston Churchill quote is along the lines of, "Sir, you're drunk!" "And you, madam, are ugly, but in the morning i shall be sober." Not sure if that's really his quote, anyway, but it's often attributed to him. rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From rone at ennui.org Fri Dec 5 12:49:02 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:49:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: <20031205073247.GC21964@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20031205204902.2ABB726C32@boredom.ennui.org> Matthew Hunter writes: Actually, tradition is useful in precisely those situations where we do not understand its genesis or the context in which it originated. That is, tradition is the force that argues for continuing to do things the way that *is known to work* (at least, for evolutionary values of "work") rather than changing something that we think we understand as being safe to change... but are not necessarily correct. A scientific people would prefer to understand why things are done a certain way, not necessarily to change it, but to see if there is room for improvement. You'll never see me argue with results, and i do lots of things by tradition at work (one example is the classic "sync && sync && reboot"), but i'd rather understand what's going on behind it. You should try to understand the root causes of a particular tradition before advocating it be tossed out, but that understanding is not required in order for the tradition to be useful; in fact, the tradition is most useful in the absence of understanding. You're almost implying, it seems, that once you understand the process behind a tradition, you destroy the tradition, much in the way that explaining a joke destroys the joke. rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From rone at ennui.org Fri Dec 5 12:50:29 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 12:50:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031205205029.ABD1F26C32@boredom.ennui.org> Philip Hart writes: To me the greatest advantage of these laws was that it set the community apart from their neighbors, as did circumcision. This separation probably brought a lot of persecution but a lot of cohesion as well. I wouldn't call it an 'advantage', but that is my understanding as to the original impetus behind the laws laid down in Leviticus. rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From bertowud at cox.net Fri Dec 5 12:56:10 2003 From: bertowud at cox.net (Robert Wood) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 15:56:10 -0500 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: <20031205205607.VSWI4890.lakemtao07.cox.net@smtp.central.cox.net> > From: rone at ennui.org (rone) > Date: 2003/12/05 Fri PM 03:45:07 EST > To: SKZB List > Subject: Re: OSC on the virtues of writer's block > > Talpianna at aol.com writes: > I'm reminded of something Winston Churchill once said (quote approximate): > 'To say "My country, right or wrong!" is like saying, "My mother, drunk or > sober!" If your mother is drunk, the thing to do is to sober her up!' > > Actually, G. K. Chesterton said that. The Winston Churchill quote is > along the lines of, "Sir, you're drunk!" "And you, madam, are ugly, > but in the morning i shall be sober." Not sure if that's really his > quote, anyway, but it's often attributed to him. > > rone Was it Churchill or W C Fields? Robert From Talpianna at aol.com Fri Dec 5 12:59:27 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 15:59:27 EST Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: <186.22bd86cc.2d024baf@aol.com> >>>>>>>>>In a message dated 12/5/2003 10:43:43 AM US Mountain Standard Time, pulmon at comcast.net writes: I suspect the fundamental problem is the miscegenation of radical right wing politics with radical Christian beliefs in the current incarnation of our government. Historically neither the conservative nor the liberal philosophies derive their positions from religion. One could argue that there is more theology in liberalism, in that it explicitly denies the concept of directed reincarnation (its fundamental concept is the creation of the society where an individual can be born into any situation and have an equal chance of success). <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<< >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I see your point and agree to a large extent, but on the other hand, what one expects of government and gives it the power to do to people is based to a large extent on one's fundamental beliefs about human nature. If one takes the Rousseau-like position that humans in a state of nature are inherently good, one does not have the same enthusiasm for government's ability to repress as someone who believes humanity is inherently evil, or at least fallen. (One has also of course never raised a two-year-old.) Communism (Marxist-Leninist variety) was based in part on the notion that humans could be perfected, and one was therefore entitled to do whatever it took to achieve that perfection, including mass murder. One can understand Chesterton's remark (I think he was quoting a Jesuit) that original sin is the only cheerful view of human nature. tal From Talpianna at aol.com Fri Dec 5 13:00:54 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:00:54 EST Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: <1dd.1602dcc7.2d024c06@aol.com> << > I just want to say I read this as 'I don't think communism is a > workable > form of goat', which confused me severely. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX Not going to butt in here........ tal From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Dec 5 13:01:32 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 15:01:32 -0600 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: <20031205204902.2ABB726C32@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20031205073247.GC21964@infodancer.org> <20031205204902.2ABB726C32@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <20031205210132.GA5507@infodancer.org> On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 12:49:02PM -0800, rone wrote: > Matthew Hunter writes: > Actually, tradition is useful in precisely those situations where > we do not understand its genesis or the context in which it > originated. That is, tradition is the force that argues for > continuing to do things the way that *is known to work* (at > least, for evolutionary values of "work") rather than changing > something that we think we understand as being safe to change... > but are not necessarily correct. > A scientific people would prefer to understand why things are done a > certain way, not necessarily to change it, but to see if there is room > for improvement. Preference, sir, is irrelevent. I do not say understanding is an undesirable act, merely that the benefit of tradition lies in the successful function without requirement of comprehension. > You'll never see me argue with results, and i do lots of things by > tradition at work (one example is the classic "sync && sync && > reboot"), but i'd rather understand what's going on behind it. There was a bug in one of the early linux kernels that failed to sync disks properly on shutdown. If you called "sync" manually first, it would work properly -- unless something else wrote new data after the sync. By calling it twice in a row, you write all pending data, then write all data written while you were syncing the first set, then reboot. There's still a window, but it's a much smaller window than no sync and a somewhat smaller window than a single sync. > You should try to understand the root causes of a particular > tradition before advocating it be tossed out, but that > understanding is not required in order for the tradition to be > useful; in fact, the tradition is most useful in the absence of > understanding. > You're almost implying, it seems, that once you understand the process > behind a tradition, you destroy the tradition, much in the way that > explaining a joke destroys the joke. I am offended, sir. I do nothing halfway or almost. ;) -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Dec 5 13:01:24 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 13:01:24 -0800 Subject: Some bits and pieces from PHOENIX References: Message-ID: <00c701c3bb72$f230dbe0$fe00000a@steve> > It is my hope that if I am mistaken in any of the > details and particulars, Steve will be so kind as > to point it out. My god in heaven. If I can sit here for a hundred messages listening to people explain that communism is "form of govenment," and that it requires a "state imposed change in human nature" for all love, and not say anything, do you think I'll jump in on something like this? Feh. Do your best. From Talpianna at aol.com Fri Dec 5 13:07:49 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:07:49 EST Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: <7a.4c64d300.2d024da5@aol.com> >>>>In a message dated 12/5/2003 10:56:08 AM US Mountain Standard Time, pulmon at comcast.net writes: When you say that both the Magdalenes and the Quakers thought that they were doing God's will, and that only the Quakers were right...what gives YOU the inside path to truth? Maybe, in fact it was the Magdalenes who were following the true desires of their God. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX I would reply as C.S. Lewis did to a similar statement, that such a God does not deserve to be worshipped. tal From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Dec 5 13:08:46 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 15:08:46 -0600 Subject: Some bits and pieces from PHOENIX In-Reply-To: <00c701c3bb72$f230dbe0$fe00000a@steve> References: <00c701c3bb72$f230dbe0$fe00000a@steve> Message-ID: <20031205210846.GB5507@infodancer.org> On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 01:01:24PM -0800, Steven Brust wrote: > > It is my hope that if I am mistaken in any of the > > details and particulars, Steve will be so kind as > > to point it out. > My god in heaven. If I can sit here for a hundred messages listening to > people explain that communism is "form of govenment," and that it requires a > "state imposed change in human nature" for all love, and not say anything, > do you think I'll jump in on something like this? Feh. Do your best. > But Steve, you just di- oh, nevermind. ;) -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From Talpianna at aol.com Fri Dec 5 13:21:06 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:21:06 EST Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: >>>In a message dated 12/5/2003 1:56:36 PM US Mountain Standard Time, bertowud at cox.net writes: Actually, G. K. Chesterton said that. The Winston Churchill quote is > along the lines of, "Sir, you're drunk!" "And you, madam, are ugly, > but in the morning i shall be sober." Not sure if that's really his > quote, anyway, but it's often attributed to him. > > rone Was it Churchill or W C Fields? Robert XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX The actual incident involved an intoxicated Churchill having trouble getting past a large woman in a doorway. "Madam, you are very fat!" growled Churchill. "Sir, you are very drunk!" she retorted indignantly. "Ah," said Churchill, "but in the morning I shall be sober." And W.C. Fields never to my knowledge endorsed sobriety. tal From jtrager at keyway.net Fri Dec 5 13:23:48 2003 From: jtrager at keyway.net (Trager) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 13:23:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: <200312052123.hB5LNmaO007270@shrek.keyway.net> Tal, you must be kid-ding. > > << pulmon at comcast.net writes: > You seem to have a unique form of dyslexia--I add sheepishly. > > > > > I just want to say I read this as 'I don't think communism is a > > workable > > form of goat', which confused me severely. > XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX > > > > Not going to butt in here........ > > tal > > From bertowud at cox.net Fri Dec 5 13:24:47 2003 From: bertowud at cox.net (Robert Wood) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:24:47 -0500 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: <20031205212436.WZCD5790.lakemtao08.cox.net@smtp.central.cox.net> > From: Talpianna at aol.com > And W.C. Fields never to my knowledge endorsed sobriety. > tal Good point! Robert From mklahn at mac.com Fri Dec 5 13:44:58 2003 From: mklahn at mac.com (Matthew Klahn) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 15:44:58 -0600 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: <7a.4c64d300.2d024da5@aol.com> References: <7a.4c64d300.2d024da5@aol.com> Message-ID: <45775F15-276C-11D8-B5A5-000393D1260C@mac.com> On Dec 5, 2003, at 15:07 , Talpianna at aol.com wrote: >>>>> In a message dated 12/5/2003 10:56:08 AM US Mountain Standard Time, > pulmon at comcast.net writes: > When you say that both the Magdalenes and the Quakers thought that they > were doing God's will, and that only the Quakers were right...what > gives YOU the inside path to truth? Maybe, in fact it was the > Magdalenes who were following the true desires of their God. > > XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX > > I would reply as C.S. Lewis did to a similar statement, that such a > God does > not deserve to be worshipped. > > tal Funny, I believe that either god does not deserve to be worshipped. In fact, any god that would tolerate worshipping, let alone ask for it, does not believe to be worshipped. This also applies to mere humans, by the way... :) -- Matthew S. Klahn Software Architect, CodeTek Studios, Inc. http://www.codetek.com From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Fri Dec 5 13:45:20 2003 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 13:45:20 -0800 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: >From: Talpianna at aol.com >To: pulmon at comcast.net, gomi at speakeasy.net >CC: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: OSC on the virtues of writer's block >Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:00:54 EST > ><<pulmon at comcast.net writes: >You seem to have a unique form of dyslexia--I add sheepishly. > > > > > I just want to say I read this as 'I don't think communism is a > > workable > > form of goat', which confused me severely. >XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX >XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX > > > >Not going to butt in here........ > > tal You're Baaaad, all baaaad! James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN _________________________________________________________________ Wonder if the latest virus has gotten to your computer? Find out. Run the FREE McAfee online computer scan! http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From rone at ennui.org Fri Dec 5 13:45:51 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 13:45:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: <20031205210132.GA5507@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20031205214551.5431326C32@boredom.ennui.org> Matthew Hunter writes: > You should try to understand the root causes of a particular > tradition before advocating it be tossed out, but that > understanding is not required in order for the tradition to be > useful; in fact, the tradition is most useful in the absence of > understanding. > You're almost implying, it seems, that once you understand the process > behind a tradition, you destroy the tradition, much in the way that > explaining a joke destroys the joke. I am offended, sir. I do nothing halfway or almost. ;) Well... if it isn't a tradition anymore, then what is it? rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Dec 5 13:48:19 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 15:48:19 -0600 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: <20031205214551.5431326C32@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20031205210132.GA5507@infodancer.org> <20031205214551.5431326C32@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <20031205214819.GD5507@infodancer.org> On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 01:45:51PM -0800, rone wrote: > Matthew Hunter writes: > > You should try to understand the root causes of a particular > > tradition before advocating it be tossed out, but that > > understanding is not required in order for the tradition to be > > useful; in fact, the tradition is most useful in the absence of > > understanding. > > You're almost implying, it seems, that once you understand the process > > behind a tradition, you destroy the tradition, much in the way that > > explaining a joke destroys the joke. > I am offended, sir. I do nothing halfway or almost. ;) > Well... if it isn't a tradition anymore, then what is it? Either a quaint custom or a primitive superstition, depending on whether the person practicing it is wearing clothes or not. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From mklahn at mac.com Fri Dec 5 13:49:25 2003 From: mklahn at mac.com (Matthew Klahn) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 15:49:25 -0600 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: <45775F15-276C-11D8-B5A5-000393D1260C@mac.com> References: <7a.4c64d300.2d024da5@aol.com> <45775F15-276C-11D8-B5A5-000393D1260C@mac.com> Message-ID: On Dec 5, 2003, at 15:44 , Matthew Klahn wrote: > Funny, I believe that either god does not deserve to be worshipped. In > fact, any god that would tolerate worshipping, let alone ask for it, > does not believe to be worshipped. This also applies to mere humans, > by the way... :) Grrr... "... deserve to be worshipped." Aw, you know what I meant. -- Matthew S. Klahn Software Architect, CodeTek Studios, Inc. http://www.codetek.com From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Dec 5 13:51:43 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 13:51:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: <20031205210132.GA5507@infodancer.org> References: <20031205073247.GC21964@infodancer.org> <20031205204902.2ABB726C32@boredom.ennui.org> <20031205210132.GA5507@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: > Actually, tradition is useful in precisely those situations where > we do not understand its genesis or the context in which it > originated. There's a wonderful chapter about chromium in Primo Levi's book The Periodic Table. Levi had just gotten out of Auschwitz and went to work as a chemist at a paint factory. Some of the paint produced during the war was turning into a liverish solid. After some detective work Levi discovered that a test of an essential ingredient was being done with 23 drops of something - at some point in the distant past it had been 2 or 3 drops, but the instructions got miscopied. The test was worthless, the ingredient in question was of unacceptable quality due to the post-war chaos. Levi figured out that adding ammonium chloride would fix the ruined ingredient. Twenty years later he happened to be at a dinner where people were telling chemistry stories. A man mentioned that he had recently worked at a paint factory where they were using, ridiculously, ammonium chloride in their anti-rust paint, when in fact it encouraged rust. When he pointed out that the salt was less than useless, he was told that the formula was sacrosanct. From jtrager at keyway.net Fri Dec 5 13:54:09 2003 From: jtrager at keyway.net (Trager) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 13:54:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: <200312052154.hB5Ls9Lx021655@shrek.keyway.net> Okay, have we milked this line of punning for all it's worth, yet? (hell no! I'm sure ewe all have plenty more to contribute...) > > > > >From: Talpianna at aol.com > >To: pulmon at comcast.net, gomi at speakeasy.net > >CC: dragaera at dragaera.info > >Subject: Re: OSC on the virtues of writer's block > >Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:00:54 EST > > > ><< >pulmon at comcast.net writes: > >You seem to have a unique form of dyslexia--I add sheepishly. > > > > > > > > I just want to say I read this as 'I don't think communism is a > > > workable > > > form of goat', which confused me severely. > >XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX > >XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX > > > > > > > >Not going to butt in here........ > > > > tal > > You're Baaaad, all baaaad! > > James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN > > _________________________________________________________________ > Wonder if the latest virus has gotten to your computer? Find out. Run the > FREE McAfee online computer scan! > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > From Talpianna at aol.com Fri Dec 5 13:56:33 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:56:33 EST Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: <1d0.15830314.2d025911@aol.com> In a message dated 12/5/2003 2:24:35 PM US Mountain Standard Time, jtrager at keyway.net writes: >>>>>Tal, you must be kid-ding. Don't ox, don't tell.. tal From Talpianna at aol.com Fri Dec 5 13:58:33 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:58:33 EST Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: <37.41b46f30.2d025989@aol.com> >>>>In a message dated 12/5/2003 2:45:29 PM US Mountain Standard Time, mklahn at mac.com writes: In fact, any god that would tolerate worshipping, let alone ask for it, does not believe to be worshipped. This also applies to mere humans, by the way... :) XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XCXCXCXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX But not, I assume, to cats? tal From mklahn at mac.com Fri Dec 5 14:26:20 2003 From: mklahn at mac.com (Matthew Klahn) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:26:20 -0600 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: <37.41b46f30.2d025989@aol.com> References: <37.41b46f30.2d025989@aol.com> Message-ID: <0D05DD1C-2772-11D8-B5A5-000393D1260C@mac.com> On Dec 5, 2003, at 15:58 , Talpianna at aol.com wrote: >>>>> In a message dated 12/5/2003 2:45:29 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > mklahn at mac.com writes: > In > fact, any god that would tolerate worshipping, let alone ask for it, > does not believe to be worshipped. This also applies to mere humans, by > the way... :) > > XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX > XCXCXCXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX > > But not, I assume, to cats? > > tal Ah, you have me there.... :) I agree, cats are an exception, but cat gods or cat-centaur gods (to try to inject some semblance of relevance to this Brustian mailing list theme that ironically started out apropos to nothing Dragaeran, AFAICT). Now, if I actually ever meet any gods, cat-centaur or otherwise, my opinion may change, depending on how this all affects my chances of survival. In fact, it would be so much simpler if Brust were the architect of the universe, as there is no real question that the gods exist in Dragaera, or at least you can meet them personally. I guess if you haven't met them and no one you trust has either, you could doubt them. -- Matthew S. Klahn Software Architect, CodeTek Studios, Inc. http://www.codetek.com From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Fri Dec 5 15:01:12 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 15:01:12 -0800 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: References: <15.1df3105c.2d01742d@aol.com> Message-ID: <20031205230112.GA7288@ofb.net> On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 10:04:25PM -0800, Philip Hart wrote: > Some later Christian communities did so as well - the Shakers come to > mind. I don't know of any persistently successful communes, unless the > Quakers counted at some point. The Hutterites. -xx- Damien X-) From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Dec 5 15:35:40 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 15:35:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: References: <20031204235611.5161F26C2D@boredom.ennui.org> <7ADFA8EA-274A-11D8-A167-0003938F1608@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Matthew Klahn wrote: > > On Dec 5, 2003, at 11:43 , Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > > > As an aside, IMHO, an atheist must be as strong a believer as a > > religious person--both have determined positions on a fact that cannot > > be proven. The only non-belief driven position is that of the > > agnostic. > > OK, not to turn this into alt.atheism nor to begin any flame-wars, but > no. [etc.] What Matthew said. Listical question - are Dragaerans atheists in Vlad's view? From bio_phy at hotmail.com Fri Dec 5 18:09:22 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 20:09:22 -0600 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: And here, I was actually hoping somebody would weigh in on the point Card makes about writer's block. Silly me. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ "A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man." - Jedediah Springfield _________________________________________________________________ Winterize your home with tips from MSN House & Home. http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx From pulmon at comcast.net Fri Dec 5 19:34:52 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 22:34:52 -0500 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: <7a.4c64d300.2d024da5@aol.com> References: <7a.4c64d300.2d024da5@aol.com> Message-ID: <26F32458-279D-11D8-A167-0003938F1608@comcast.net> But of course worship is simply a human response to the perceived divine. Is there any objective evidence that worship is desired by God? On Dec 5, 2003, at 4:07 PM, Talpianna at aol.com wrote: >>>>> In a message dated 12/5/2003 10:56:08 AM US Mountain Standard Time, > pulmon at comcast.net writes: > When you say that both the Magdalenes and the Quakers thought that they > were doing God's will, and that only the Quakers were right...what > gives YOU the inside path to truth? Maybe, in fact it was the > Magdalenes who were following the true desires of their God. > > XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX > XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX > > I would reply as C.S. Lewis did to a similar statement, that such a > God does > not deserve to be worshipped. > > tal From pulmon at comcast.net Fri Dec 5 19:45:21 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 22:45:21 -0500 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: <200312052154.hB5Ls9Lx021655@shrek.keyway.net> References: <200312052154.hB5Ls9Lx021655@shrek.keyway.net> Message-ID: <9E1A8740-279E-11D8-A167-0003938F1608@comcast.net> I think we should take this pungent thread and chevr-it On Dec 5, 2003, at 4:54 PM, Trager wrote: > Okay, have we milked this line of punning for all it's worth, yet? > > (hell no! I'm sure ewe all have plenty more to contribute...) > >> >> >> >>> From: Talpianna at aol.com >>> To: pulmon at comcast.net, gomi at speakeasy.net >>> CC: dragaera at dragaera.info >>> Subject: Re: OSC on the virtues of writer's block >>> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 16:00:54 EST >>> >>> << Time, >>> pulmon at comcast.net writes: >>> You seem to have a unique form of dyslexia--I add sheepishly. >>> >>>> >>>> I just want to say I read this as 'I don't think communism is a >>>> workable >>>> form of goat', which confused me severely. >>> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX >>> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX >>> >>> >>> >>> Not going to butt in here........ >>> >>> tal >> >> You're Baaaad, all baaaad! >> >> James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Wonder if the latest virus has gotten to your computer? Find out. Run > the >> FREE McAfee online computer scan! >> http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 >> >> > > From pulmon at comcast.net Fri Dec 5 19:47:27 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 22:47:27 -0500 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: References: <20031204235611.5161F26C2D@boredom.ennui.org> <7ADFA8EA-274A-11D8-A167-0003938F1608@comcast.net> Message-ID: I suspect that Vlad's views are pragmatic on this point. However, if he were to seek to place believers in Dragaeran theology in an Eastern framework, he would have to consider them heretics, not atheists. The KNOW that the gods exist, but they worship them in a manner that would be unacceptable back east.... On Dec 5, 2003, at 6:35 PM, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Matthew Klahn wrote: > >> >> On Dec 5, 2003, at 11:43 , Kenneth Gorelick wrote: >> >>> As an aside, IMHO, an atheist must be as strong a believer as a >>> religious person--both have determined positions on a fact that >>> cannot >>> be proven. The only non-belief driven position is that of the >>> agnostic. >> >> OK, not to turn this into alt.atheism nor to begin any flame-wars, but >> no. [etc.] > > What Matthew said. > > Listical question - are Dragaerans atheists in Vlad's view? > From rone at ennui.org Fri Dec 5 20:21:40 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 20:21:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031206042140.DA27126C32@boredom.ennui.org> Johne Cook writes: And here, I was actually hoping somebody would weigh in on the point Card makes about writer's block. Silly me. Someone commented that they wished that writer's block were as practical in their case as it was in Card's. I tend to agree... if you're as prolific a writer as Card claims to be, writer's block would certainly seem a blessing. rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From kcr at midsouth.rr.com Fri Dec 5 20:31:15 2003 From: kcr at midsouth.rr.com (Kevin Raybould) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 22:31:15 -0600 Subject: Fw: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: <006301c3bbb1$ca05f760$6401a8c0@kevinlaptop> Sigh - hit the wrong reply. Sorry for bothering you at your regular email, John. > > And here, I was actually hoping somebody would weigh in on the point Card > > makes about writer's block. Silly me. Well, for what it is worth, in my limited, non-published experience, I agree with his notion. When I find the writing slow going, it usually because I don't really have a good piece going. Either I am stumped for the next step in the plot, the theme isn't working, or the characterization is falling flat. When I struggle to gets words on paper, it usually means the piece is in serious trouble. Now, keep in mind that I suck, so I may not really have anything meaningful to say, but OSC's expirience mirrors mine. > > johne (phy) cook > > wisconsin, usa > > > > aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ > > > > "A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man." > > - Jedediah Springfield > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Winterize your home with tips from MSN House & Home. > > http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx > > > From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Dec 5 20:37:34 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 20:37:34 -0800 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block References: <200312052123.hB5LNmaO007270@shrek.keyway.net> Message-ID: <003701c3bbb2$ab2c0ef0$fe00000a@steve> > Tal, you must be kid-ding. > > > > > << Time, > > pulmon at comcast.net writes: > > You seem to have a unique form of dyslexia--I add sheepishly. > > > > > > > > I just want to say I read this as 'I don't think communism is a > > > workable > > > form of goat', which confused me severely. > > XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX > > XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX > > > > > > > > Not going to butt in here........ > > I suggest we loose the sheep-shots right now; they'll only get worse from here. From bonham15 at cox.net Sat Dec 6 00:43:50 2003 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 02:43:50 -0600 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block References: <20031205205607.VSWI4890.lakemtao07.cox.net@smtp.central.cox.net> Message-ID: <002901c3bbd5$12966460$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> it was churchill and it was the duchess of whothehellever, but this is an attributable quote... andy > > 'To say "My country, right or wrong!" is like saying, "My mother, drunk or > > sober!" If your mother is drunk, the thing to do is to sober her up!' > > > > Actually, G. K. Chesterton said that. The Winston Churchill quote is > > along the lines of, "Sir, you're drunk!" "And you, madam, are ugly, > > but in the morning i shall be sober." Not sure if that's really his > > quote, anyway, but it's often attributed to him. > > > > rone > > Was it Churchill or W C Fields? > > Robert > From Talpianna at aol.com Sat Dec 6 01:20:45 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 04:20:45 EST Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: <1ac.1dda9fa5.2d02f96d@aol.com> >>>In a message dated 12/5/2003 3:27:11 PM US Mountain Standard Time, mklahn at mac.com writes: Now, if I actually ever meet any gods, cat-centaur or otherwise, my opinion may change, depending on how this all affects my chances of survival. In fact, it would be so much simpler if Brust were the architect of the universe, as there is no real question that the gods exist in Dragaera, or at least you can meet them personally. I guess if you haven't met them and no one you trust has either, you could doubt them. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<<< I recall a footnote in one of the early Discworld books that pointed out that there the gods go around and throw stones at the windows of atheists. tal From Talpianna at aol.com Sat Dec 6 01:31:09 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 04:31:09 EST Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: <73.389db0b5.2d02fbdd@aol.com> In a message dated 12/5/2003 9:36:45 PM US Mountain Standard Time, skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: >>>Tal, you must be kid-ding. You may think you have me cowed, but I shall not be mooved. Enough of this bull! tal From Talpianna at aol.com Sat Dec 6 01:37:46 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 04:37:46 EST Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: <169.2764f11d.2d02fd6a@aol.com> >>>>>>In a message dated 12/5/2003 8:35:00 PM US Mountain Standard Time, pulmon at comcast.net writes: But of course worship is simply a human response to the perceived divine. Is there any objective evidence that worship is desired by God? XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX The HIPPOLYTUS of Euripides? Phaedra by Marsha Moore Phaedra is best known for her role in Euripides' play, the Hippolytus. The plot follows a pattern of sexual intrigue and betrayal that has parallels in ancient Mediterranean myths, mostly notably, the Biblical account of Joseph and Potiphar's wife. Phaedra married Theseus who has a son, Hippolytus, from a previous marriage to Antiope. The young Hippolytus, however, angered Aphrodite by shunning her worship and devoting himself entirely to Artemis, the virgin goddess of the hunt. To punish him, Aphrodite compels Phaedra to begin lusting after the young man. At first, she resisted, and sought magic cures for her passions, or at least a noble death. Hippolytus learns of Phaedra's desire for him through Phaedra's nurse and launches into a fierce denunciation of women -- a locus classicus for misogyny. Out of shame and guilt Phaedra hung herself, but not until she'd left a letter condemning him of trying to rape her. Hipploytus was trapped into silence because he had promised that whatever Phaedra's nurse told him, he would never repeat. Therefore, when confronted by his father he was defenseless. Out of anger Theseus asked Poseidon to punish Hippolytus, which he did. Hippolytus died as Poseidon's bull emerged from the sea frightened his horses. Unfortunately, after it was too late, Artemis revealed the truth to Theseus concerning his son and Phaedra. In a typical Euripidean deus ex machina, the goddess Artemis is questioned as to why she stood by and allowed her devoted follower to be destroyed. She reminds the chorus that there is an agreement among the gods that the favorites of one divinity can be destroyed by another divinity at will. It is scant consolation that she promises that someday she'll similarly destroy a mortal favorite of Aphrodite in revenge. And so "As flies are to wanton boys, are we to the gods. They kill us for their sport" (Shakespeare, "King Lear"). From mam at theworld.com Sat Dec 6 11:14:07 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 14:14:07 -0500 Subject: re Tiassa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Philip Hart wrote: #> >I believe oracularity is an official trait of Tiassas - see Mark #> >Mandel's page. #> > #> #> Yes, and I think he put "oracle" in there because, prior to /The #> Phoenix Guards/, the only Tiassa we had met with any noticible role #> was that same oracle. Khaavren appears in that same book, but, as #> noted in a prior post, has only a brief and non-speaking part. #> #> In other words, he was generalizing from one example. Well, yes. But the ability fits with incidents we have seen with other Tiassa. IIRC, Daro came to Khaavren's side because she had a strong sense that he needed her and a sense of where she was. Khaavren evades the assassin's strike from behind even though the assassin is perfectly and completely silent. Tiassa ARE more likely than members of other houses to have inexplicable insights. #An old poem from my days working underground at an accelerator in Geneva #(hence beam - also Slimos refers to the shift safety responsible, PB #and EB were parts of the detector, and the letters designate particles): # # Song of the Happy Slimos Ooh! Ooh! May I post this to rec.music.filk, with credit of course? Did you write it? #Late at night on shift you start to wonder about the beam. #Are electrons claustrophobic? Can you hear the bunches scream #As they hurtle towards each other? Do the Z's have time to pray #For an extra femtosecond before they violently decay? #Do the K's and pi's feel helpless as the magnet makes them curve? #Does PB say to EB, "We must take what we deserve"? #Are aliens kept frozen in the liquid He vats? #Are the tunnels ruled by giant, glowing, radioactive rats? #Are the things that live in darkness in the dirt outside the hall #Slowing gnawing on the concrete? Are we really just in thrall #To the whims of our computers? Does Vax control us all? #Is this data really useful? Does God think it a crime #To investigate his secrets, or are we just wasting time? #If someone destroys the universe, we will start again from scratch. #If you point me towards the fuse I think that I can find a match. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname http://mark.cracksandshards/filk.html Now on the Filker's Bardic Webring! From davids at kithrup.com Sat Dec 6 11:50:29 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 11:50:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: re Tiassa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Dec 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: [Tiassa == oracle?] > >Well, yes. But the ability fits with incidents we have seen with >other Tiassa. IIRC, Daro came to Khaavren's side because she had a >strong sense that he needed her and a sense of where she was. >Khaavren evades the assassin's strike from behind even though the >assassin is perfectly and completely silent. Tiassa ARE more likely >than members of other houses to have inexplicable insights. > Hmm. I believe you have convinced me. I now recall Daro's statement "Well, what of that? I am a Tiassa.", when Khaavren expresses surprise at her ability to have bested several of Lord Adron's soldiers. I thought, at first, that the implication was that while Dragons were fierce, Tiassa had faster reflexes or somesuch. But perhaps we are meant to understand that Tiassa are luckier; that, combined with desperation and skill, she had hunches of how best to defeat the soldiers' attacks. I am also reminded of another matter. On re-reading the beginning of FHYA, I was struck by the fact that all of the other assassinations that took place were effective, competent and deadly. Khaavren alone was attacked by someone who, from the depiction, was incompetent, in that he chose to make his attack when his victim was awake and alert. All of the others were taken completely by stealth. I wondered if perhaps an insinuation was being made that Khaavren might even have been involved in the murders, or that his assassin had been told to stage it in such a way as to be most likely to fail (much as appeared to be the case in /Yendi/, when Vlad was attacked *outside* the restaurant). Yet Khaavren taking his sword with him to answer a clap at the door was a rather odd thing to do; perhaps the result of a Tiassa hunch or prognostication. I am not certain that that clears up the matter of the assassinations; it makes the assassin seem even *more* incompetent or staged for not anticipating Tiassa hunches, but it does add an additional dimension to the matter. From mam at theworld.com Sat Dec 6 13:14:56 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 16:14:56 -0500 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: <200312052123.hB5LNmaO007270@shrek.keyway.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Trager wrote: #Tal, you must be kid-ding. #> << pulmon at comcast.net writes: #> You seem to have a unique form of dyslexia--I add sheepishly. #> #> > #> > I just want to say I read this as 'I don't think communism is a #> > workable #> > form of goat', which confused me severely. #> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX #> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX #> #> Not going to butt in here........ #> #> tal Ba-a-ah! -- Mark A. Mandel From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sat Dec 6 13:27:54 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 13:27:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: re Tiassa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Dec 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > #> >I believe oracularity is an official trait of Tiassas - see Mark > #> >Mandel's page. David S.: > #> In other words, he was generalizing from one example. > > Well, yes. But the ability fits with incidents we have seen with other > Tiassa. IIRC, Daro came to Khaavren's side because she had a strong > sense that he needed her and a sense of where she was. Khaavren evades > the assassin's strike from behind even though the assassin is perfectly > and completely silent. Tiassa ARE more likely than members of other > houses to have inexplicable insights. Why do we keep refighting this? _Every_ Tiassa we've met has this quality, except maybe Piro. By the way, do people remember a certain prophetic dream at the end of _TPotD_? And certain fatherly musings earlier in the volume? > # Song of the Happy Slimos > > Ooh! Ooh! May I post this to rec.music.filk, with credit of course? Did > you write it? Yeah, that's me, help yourself. I was the unofficial poet of the experiment, though I got a few bottles of wine and the occasional free dinner out of the gig. The Slimos Blues at http://hep.ucsb.edu/people/hart/poem/opalstuff.html is in a similar vein. If one isn't amused by stuff like Every K's mysterious As the Trinity; Who gave them permission To violate CP? most of verse there will probably seem irremediably twee. - Philip From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sat Dec 6 14:58:50 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 14:58:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: References: <20031204235611.5161F26C2D@boredom.ennui.org> <7ADFA8EA-274A-11D8-A167-0003938F1608@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Kenneth Gorelick wrote: > I suspect that Vlad's views are pragmatic on this point. However, if he > were to seek to place believers in Dragaeran theology in an Eastern > framework, he would have to consider them heretics, not atheists. The > KNOW that the gods exist, but they worship them in a manner that would > be unacceptable back east.... > On Dec 5, 2003, at 6:35 PM, Philip Hart wrote: What I meant was, that from the Dragaeran point of view the gods aren't Gods. Maybe the Cycle is a God - if it can micromanage Dragaeran affairs to ensure the cycle system, I'd say it is. But perhaps the weight of public expectations is enough. The Greek gods, for example, were powerful and immortal. Verra&Co have attributes that place them beyond mortal (that's how I interpret Verra's comments to Aliera about her blood etc.) but they can be destroyed given sufficient effort - maybe not known in the East. From a Christian sort of perspective the Greek gods might or might not be considered Gods. I suspect that Easterners view Verra&Co the way the Greeks viewed Athena&Co. Anyway, to me an important attribute of God in a Christian worldview is to establish morality - otherwise one is stuck with ethics. The Greek gods did some of this, in part by gruesomely punishing those who violated the guest rules or slept with their relatives, but on the other hand they were rather flawed themselves. I don't see Verra doing much morality-establishing - she's more like a political leader in that regard, and perhaps not even a bully-pulpitist. I can imagine Aerich worshipping the Cycle, but maybe that's just me. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sat Dec 6 15:20:35 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 15:20:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: <200312051745.hB5HjxO08517@panix1.panix.com> References: <200312051745.hB5HjxO08517@panix1.panix.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Alexx Kay wrote: > > me: > > To me the greatest advantage of these laws was that it set the > > community apart from their neighbors, as did circumcision. This > > separation probably brought a lot of persecution but a lot of cohesion as > > well. > > There is an intriguing and relevant evolutionary theory that this reminds > me of. > > Consider the problem of introducing genetic change to a population. If > the population is very large, and interbreeds essentially at random, then > mutations, even favorable ones, will tend to get "damped out", and vanish > before having a chance to become part of the general genome. Such a > species is very stable, but less likely to be able to adapt quickly to > the next environmental change. > > One "solution" to this, which evolution appears to have "invented", is > Culture. That is, an arbitrary set of behaviours that seperates the > species into small breeding pools. These pools are small enough that > favorable mutations will often spread throughout the pool, rather than > be damped out by widespread interbreeding. [extensive snippage] As present this sounds like an argument for species-level evolution, which I tend not to believe in, being a gene-level guy myself. Dawkins/Dennett refer to evolutionary change along with culture as the Good Trick or Baldwin effect and say the combo speeds evolution but is not evolution per se, if I understand their thinking. > If true, this theory has some interesting implications. Language > evolved as a tool for easy differentiation of Culture, not because > of intelligence. I've long thought that language was developed so that people could write poetry (or songs, if one insists) in order to get laid. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Sat Dec 6 15:43:48 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 18:43:48 -0500 Subject: The Gypsy Message-ID: <3FD269B4.7060106@earthlink.net> I've been wanting to read The Gypsy for quite some time, and because I couldn't find any copies anywhere, I bought Songs from the Gypsy. I was very excited to hear the songs, of course, but I also was looking forward to reading the text of the novel. So here's the problem. I don't know how to get to the text of the novel. Anyone know what I need to do to get to the text? Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From rone at ennui.org Sat Dec 6 16:25:23 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 16:25:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Gypsy In-Reply-To: <3FD269B4.7060106@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20031207002523.3495A26C32@boredom.ennui.org> Jose Marquez writes: I've been wanting to read The Gypsy for quite some time, and because I couldn't find any copies anywhere, I bought Songs from the Gypsy. I was very excited to hear the songs, of course, but I also was looking forward to reading the text of the novel. So here's the problem. I don't know how to get to the text of the novel. Anyone know what I need to do to get to the text? Have you looked at used books online? I just put "Steven Brust" and "gypsy" into bookfinder.com and got lots of matches. rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From davids at kithrup.com Sat Dec 6 16:53:32 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 16:53:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Gypsy In-Reply-To: <3FD269B4.7060106@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Dec 2003, Jose Marquez wrote: >I've been wanting to read The Gypsy for quite some time, and because I >couldn't find any copies anywhere, I bought Songs from the Gypsy. I was >very excited to hear the songs, of course, but I also was looking >forward to reading the text of the novel. So here's the problem. I don't >know how to get to the text of the novel. Anyone know what I need to do >to get to the text? > I recall having problems with the CD before. Let me get it and try it now. [...] Weird. I can't see the data portion in Win2K at *all*. Not even using tools like Nero to look at the track; all it sees are the 10 audio track. OK, when in doubt, try Linux. [...] Ah! Linux sees the data portion with no problems. And looking at the files, I now recall that another problem I was having is that apparantly the book was meant to be read using an ancient and ugly version of Quicktime. Still, I can see that the files are there. There is a "media" directory, which contains files chap1-chap17b.txt, and I can even look at them. The txt is not pure text, though. It appears to be some kind of Mac editor file; there is a header with a bunch of junk (RIFFz^@^@STYLMAC "^A^@^@^FGeneva, and ascii nuls), and the text is CR terminated. It also appears that parts of the soundtrack were meant to play as the book is being read. Or at least, there are a bunch of .mov files. "Stepdown" [soundfile 6] It would not be too hard to write some scripts to massage them down to plain text with DOS or Unix line-feeds. From unitcancellation at hotmail.com Sat Dec 6 17:04:07 2003 From: unitcancellation at hotmail.com (Alex Nixon) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 21:04:07 -0400 Subject: The Gypsy Message-ID: I got mine from www.powells.com Has a lot of used, hard to find books. Alex On Sat, 6 Dec 2003, Jose Marquez wrote: >I've been wanting to read The Gypsy for quite some time, and because I >couldn't find any copies anywhere, I bought Songs from the Gypsy. I was >very excited to hear the songs, of course, but I also was looking >forward to reading the text of the novel. So here's the problem. I don't >know how to get to the text of the novel. Anyone know what I need to do >to get to the text? > _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca From ruhlenr at tigger.uic.edu Sat Dec 6 17:23:34 2003 From: ruhlenr at tigger.uic.edu (Rachel L. Ruhlen) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 19:23:34 -0600 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: References: <200312042210.hB4MACg21271@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.0.20031206192245.01ad8d40@tigger.uic.edu> At 04:36 PM 12/4/2003, Philip Hart wrote: >On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > > Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Johne Cook wrote: > > > > > > > (It's not his politics that worry me, it's his religion, > > > > > > Same thing. > > > > Excuse me? Are you stating that politics and religion > > are the same thing, or that they are in OSC's case? No matter how good the politician/religious leader, a knife between the shoulders will seriously cramp his style. Rachel From ruhlenr at tigger.uic.edu Sat Dec 6 17:31:00 2003 From: ruhlenr at tigger.uic.edu (Rachel L. Ruhlen) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 19:31:00 -0600 Subject: re Tiassa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.0.20031206193033.01b962b8@tigger.uic.edu> At 01:50 PM 12/6/2003, David Silberstein wrote: >I am not certain that that clears up the matter of the assassinations; >it makes the assassin seem even *more* incompetent or staged for not >anticipating Tiassa hunches, but it does add an additional dimension >to the matter. You reason like a Yendi, sir. Rachel From bonham15 at cox.net Sat Dec 6 19:47:55 2003 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 21:47:55 -0600 Subject: The Gypsy References: Message-ID: <000d01c3bc74$e610ba30$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> powell's as in portland? THAT place is a freakin shrine. i spent 4 days there once wandering from floor to floor. imagine if you will a new and used book store the size of a city block, with its own parking ramp.... andy > I got mine from www.powells.com Has a lot of used, hard to find books. > > Alex > > > On Sat, 6 Dec 2003, Jose Marquez wrote: > > >I've been wanting to read The Gypsy for quite some time, and because I > >couldn't find any copies anywhere, I bought Songs from the Gypsy. I was > >very excited to hear the songs, of course, but I also was looking > >forward to reading the text of the novel. So here's the problem. I don't > >know how to get to the text of the novel. Anyone know what I need to do > >to get to the text? > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca > From bonham15 at cox.net Sun Dec 7 11:04:13 2003 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 13:04:13 -0600 Subject: tukko References: <20031207002523.3495A26C32@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <000301c3bcf4$e7926900$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> oh mighty brains of the dragaerian list! i beseech thee with a petition for knowledge.... rereading lord o' castle black again for the upteenth time and i'm no closer to figuring this one out.... i don't believe this is a spoiler for anyone who hasn't read the book, but the answer might be.. what does Dri'Chazik a Tukknaro Dzur mean?.... the incident is the one where sethra has just set up dzur mt against the jenoine and is referred to as tukko's full title (that sethra uses when she's having a minor hissy-cow with her 'servant')... and any rampant speculation on tukko? andy my assumption is that he's some sort of progenitor for house dzur, or spirit/shaman type but who knows. my brain ain't nearly as big as some others out on this list.. frankly you people scare me sometimes...- _^ From pulmon at comcast.net Sun Dec 7 11:57:41 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 14:57:41 -0500 Subject: tukko In-Reply-To: <000301c3bcf4$e7926900$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> References: <20031207002523.3495A26C32@boredom.ennui.org> <000301c3bcf4$e7926900$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> Message-ID: <9DB3E946-28EF-11D8-8991-0003938F1608@comcast.net> I think he is a simple means of eliminating the Chaz/Tukko dichotomy. On Dec 7, 2003, at 2:04 PM, bonham15 wrote: > oh mighty brains of the dragaerian list! i beseech thee with a > petition for > knowledge.... rereading lord o' castle black again for the upteenth > time and > i'm no closer to figuring this one out.... i don't believe this is a > spoiler for anyone who hasn't read the book, but the answer might be.. > > what does Dri'Chazik a Tukknaro Dzur mean?.... the incident is the one > where > sethra has just set up dzur mt against the jenoine and is referred to > as > tukko's full title (that sethra uses when she's having a minor > hissy-cow > with her 'servant')... and any rampant speculation on tukko? > > andy > > my assumption is that he's some sort of progenitor for house dzur, or > spirit/shaman type but who knows. my brain ain't nearly as big as some > others out on this list.. frankly you people scare me sometimes...- _^ > From skzb at dreamcafe.com Sun Dec 7 13:57:10 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 13:57:10 -0800 Subject: tukko References: <20031207002523.3495A26C32@boredom.ennui.org> <000301c3bcf4$e7926900$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> Message-ID: <009e01c3bd0d$10778a40$fe00000a@steve> > what does Dri'Chazik a Tukknaro Dzur mean?. Tsk tsk. Now, that WOULD be telling. From rone at ennui.org Sun Dec 7 13:59:43 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 13:59:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: tukko In-Reply-To: <009e01c3bd0d$10778a40$fe00000a@steve> Message-ID: <20031207215943.174E926C3D@boredom.ennui.org> Steven Brust writes: > what does Dri'Chazik a Tukknaro Dzur mean?. Tsk tsk. Now, that WOULD be telling. I bet Tukknaro means "Mountain". rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From bonham15 at cox.net Sun Dec 7 14:31:52 2003 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 16:31:52 -0600 Subject: tukko References: <20031207215943.174E926C3D@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <000801c3bd11$e9eddf00$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> that was my other line of inquiry.. he functions as a reminder to her as she was about to kill another dragon we are rather fond of as well....but, someone calling sethra 'young one'.... and no mr. brust YOU were actually the very last person i'd expect to divulge that secret. i wanted to see some wonderful speculation chains from the folks in the list andy late late at night, sethra calls him daddy! 0_o.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "rone" To: "SKZB List" Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 3:59 PM Subject: Re: tukko > Steven Brust writes: > > what does Dri'Chazik a Tukknaro Dzur mean?. > Tsk tsk. Now, that WOULD be telling. > > I bet Tukknaro means "Mountain". > > rone > -- > "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" > "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" > -- RICHH > From davids at kithrup.com Sun Dec 7 15:43:00 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 15:43:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: tukko In-Reply-To: <000801c3bd11$e9eddf00$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Dec 2003, bonham15 wrote: [ Dri'Chazik a Tukknaro Dzur ] >someone calling sethra 'young one'.... Well, I think it is obvious that someone who is nearly as old as Sethra, and *looks* older (wrinkled skin, stooped posture, somewhat palsied, perhaps), might well think, when he's feeling in a snippy mood, that he has a right to call someone who is older, but *looks* less than 200 ("You don't look old enough to remember the Interregnum"), "young one". If you want more wild speculation, perhaps it's because *he* is the reason she looks younger - that is, it is from his blood that she feeds when she is being a vampire. So he's reminding her of the debt she owes him. Given how taciturn he is around Vlad, I find myself wondering how Paarfi's portrayal of a rather garrulous individual accords with that. Perhaps Tukko is so offended or upset by the presence of an Easterner - or of a Jhereg - that he is clamming up specifically because of Vlad. Or perhaps Paarfi figured out that Tukko was more important than he seemed, and decided to interview him, first getting him drunk, and, well, perhaps being drunk makes him talkative. On a completely unrelated note, I noticed that the novel that Robert Sloane was working on is titled "Chazho", and I wondered if perhaps "Chazho" has some relation to "Chazhik". But that is merely an idle notion. From bonham15 at cox.net Sun Dec 7 15:54:24 2003 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 17:54:24 -0600 Subject: tukko References: Message-ID: <000401c3bd1d$7139a3d0$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> > > [ Dri'Chazik a Tukknaro Dzur ] > > >someone calling sethra 'young one'.... > > Well, I think it is obvious that someone who is nearly as old as > Sethra, and *looks* older (wrinkled skin, stooped posture, somewhat > palsied, perhaps), might well think, when he's feeling in a snippy > mood, that he has a right to call someone who is older, but *looks* > less than 200 ("You don't look old enough to remember the > Interregnum"), "young one". > > If you want more wild speculation, perhaps it's because *he* is the > reason she looks younger - that is, it is from his blood that she > feeds when she is being a vampire. So he's reminding her of the debt > she owes him. something else i was thinking along this line is that *he* is dzur mountain, sethra feeds off him somehow etc etc... > > Given how taciturn he is around Vlad, I find myself wondering how > Paarfi's portrayal of a rather garrulous individual accords with that. > Perhaps Tukko is so offended or upset by the presence of an Easterner > - or of a Jhereg - that he is clamming up specifically because of > Vlad. Or perhaps Paarfi figured out that Tukko was more important > than he seemed, and decided to interview him, first getting him drunk, > and, well, perhaps being drunk makes him talkative. i'm still of the opinion that mario was a reincarnation of whats his name, and our little vlad is just the next incarnation of that soul.. by whats his name, i mean kieron and aliera's brother, his name escapes me right now, but assassinating an emperor and dropping the empire into chaos would seem to be his speed.. dolivar? for some reason i want to type dolemite, out of some fond remembrance for bad 70's exploitation films.... > On a completely unrelated note, I noticed that the novel that Robert > Sloane was working on is titled "Chazho", and I wondered if perhaps > "Chazho" has some relation to "Chazhik". But that is merely an idle > notion. i was hoping it was some messed up form of hungarian and someone could rough translate :) andy From Gaertk at aol.com Sun Dec 7 16:18:40 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 19:18:40 -0500 Subject: tukko Message-ID: <7B76E95E.7BBB3AF0.00048EA6@aol.com> rone at ennui.org (rone) writes: > bonham15 writes: >> what does Dri'Chazik a Tukknaro Dzur mean?. > ? > I bet Tukknaro means "Mountain". And the glottal stop indicates past tense, ie undead. Oh wait, that's for Steven Erikson's names.... --KG From pgranzeau at cox.net Sun Dec 7 18:27:48 2003 From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 21:27:48 -0500 Subject: tukko In-Reply-To: <000401c3bd1d$7139a3d0$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> References: <000401c3bd1d$7139a3d0$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031207212617.02a4f0d0@pop.east.cox.net> At 18:54 12/07/2003, bonham15 wrote: >i'm still of the opinion that mario was a reincarnation of whats his name, >and >our little vlad is just the next incarnation of that soul.. by whats his >name, i >mean kieron and aliera's brother, his name escapes me right now, but >assassinating an emperor and dropping the empire into chaos would seem to >be his speed.. dolivar? for some reason i want to type dolemite, out of some >fond remembrance for bad 70's exploitation films.... The name you want is Dolivar. I don't believe his soul was Mario, as Vlad speaks of Mario in the present tense (I think in _Jhereg_). -- Regards, Pete pgranzeau at cox.net From mam at theworld.com Sun Dec 7 19:05:24 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 22:05:24 -0500 Subject: tukko In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20031207212617.02a4f0d0@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Dec 2003, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: #The name you want is Dolivar. I don't believe his soul was Mario, as Vlad #speaks of Mario in the present tense (I think in _Jhereg_). While I also don't think that Mario and Vlad are, um, soulmates, I'm unwilling to pin a lot on Vlad's use. Someone on this list has described Vlad's attitude toward Mario as something like superstitious awe. V may be simply assuming that M is still alive. Have we seen any other evidence one way or the other? -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From davids at kithrup.com Sun Dec 7 19:26:17 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 19:26:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: tukko In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Dec 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Sun, 7 Dec 2003, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: >#The name you want is Dolivar. I don't believe his soul was Mario, >#as Vlad speaks of Mario in the present tense (I think in _Jhereg_). >While I also don't think that Mario and Vlad are, um, soulmates, I'm >unwilling to pin a lot on Vlad's use. Someone on this list has >described Vlad's attitude toward Mario as something like >superstitious awe. V may be simply assuming that M is still alive. >Have we seen any other evidence one way or the other? > Er, the comments by somebody named Steve Brust that Mario is still sparking Aliera, and has in fact just done so prior to a scene in JHEREG? From greyw01f at hotmail.com Sun Dec 7 19:28:31 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 03:28:31 +0000 Subject: Now *here's* a thought Message-ID: So, to a Dragaeran, Godhood is basically a form of evolution. For an Easterner, it's entirely separate "species". To a God, who is probably the best source to quote, it's both. So what if Mario, being the living embodiment of the inevitability of death, with Easterners and Dragaerans looking up to him as something almost god-like (If Mario's after you, you're already dead, you just don't know it) What if Mario becomes a God? *That* would be cool. *Especially* if it *is* indeed a fact that Mario and Vlad share the same soul--that would be the very proof that turns him into a God, should that be his desire (Sethra can do it, but has consciously turned down the offer of Godhood). Think of it, though. If anyone could get to be a God, ie, "offered" divinity, as Sethra has repeatedly been, it would be someone who the Dragaerans and Easterners alike look upon as super-human. Also, being the beloved of the daughter of a God can't hurt. I wouldn't be surprised if he turns out to be Devera's father. The two big problems, of course, are, can there be incest between souls? and that Mario doesn't seem to be a sorceror of any skill--but I have to ask, is that important? I think we tend to equate divine power with evolved mystical and sorcerous skill, but, like a God would say, I think it's both divinity *and* evolved magic. I don't think that a being would really *need* any skill in sorcery to meet the requisites of Godhood, or if he does, that that "sorcery" be as blatant as the manipulation of amorphia or necrophia. Mario's magic is the magic of death. The inevitability. It is a *very* powerful, and very unignorable magic, but people don't really see it as magic as such. But I think that in many ways, it *is* magical. It's certainly fing mysterious enough to be. What do you guys think of Mario the God, possibly Dolivar/Mario/Vlad the God(slayer)? Jon _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca From davids at kithrup.com Sun Dec 7 19:29:45 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 19:29:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Question on "Pressing" Message-ID: TECKLA, Chapter 10: "He was pressing you, Vladimir. If he had continued, he would have had the initiative and your balance would have been not right." "Pressing me?" "Each time he shifted his feet, he would end with his weight more forward. It is a trick some of these elfs use. I think they don't know they are doing it." It occurred to me that this "trick" might very well be known to exist in the real world, and it is my hope that those on this list who actually study and practice the martial arts might comment on its factuality or lack thereof. It seems to me that it would be something that could occur any time an extremely tall fencer was facing someone much smaller. Any thoughts? From greyw01f at hotmail.com Sun Dec 7 19:36:08 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 03:36:08 +0000 Subject: Question on "Pressing" Message-ID: ----Original Message Follows---- From: David Silberstein To: Dragaera List Subject: Question on "Pressing" Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 19:29:45 -0800 (PST) TECKLA, Chapter 10: "He was pressing you, Vladimir. If he had continued, he would have had the initiative and your balance would have been not right." "Pressing me?" "Each time he shifted his feet, he would end with his weight more forward. It is a trick some of these elfs use. I think they don't know they are doing it." It occurred to me that this "trick" might very well be known to exist in the real world, and it is my hope that those on this list who actually study and practice the martial arts might comment on its factuality or lack thereof. It seems to me that it would be something that could occur any time an extremely tall fencer was facing someone much smaller. Any thoughts? It is certainly a fact that one who is pressing an opponent tends to a great degree to keep his balance forward---it's standard psychological and mechanical physics that someone who is defending will be retreating in some way, and someone who is attacking will also be advancing. The only exception, as far as I know, is a successful defense, where the defender stands his ground and uses the forward balance against the opponent--ie, in Jitsu/Aikido/Tai Chi where we use the weight and force of the attacker's attack to throw him to the ground--we supplement that forward balance in a (hopefully) surprising way, so that the attack ends up throwing the attacker off balance, instead, as was (sub)consciously intended, throwing the defender off balance. This "surprise" is what wins the fight. *shrugs* I don't know if that helps, but if you allow an attacker to "press" you into retreating defense, you *will* eventually be forced to meet an attack that is entirely on his terms--and it probably won't sit very well with you. Jon _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/features&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca From davids at kithrup.com Sun Dec 7 20:08:17 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 20:08:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Now *here's* a thought In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Jon Carey wrote: > >Think of it, though. If anyone could get to be a God, ie, "offered" >divinity, as Sethra has repeatedly been, it would be someone who the >Dragaerans and Easterners alike look upon as super-human. Excuse me, but the only individual whom we know for certain has this nearly superstitious awe of Mario is Vlad Taltos. None of the other Easterners or Dragaerans seem to have *that* much respect for him. Paarfi protrays him as being competant and lucky, but not inhumanly so. > Also, being the beloved of the daughter of a God can't hurt. I >wouldn't be surprised if he turns out to be Devera's father. Kieron the Conqueror has already been named as Devera's father. >What do you guys think of Mario the God, possibly Dolivar/Mario/Vlad the >God(slayer)? > Well, besides the fact that the Mario and Vlad are indeed seperate persons, I think that you are giving Mario far more credit than he is due. The only way I can see that young punk of a Jhereg attaining Godhood is through the effects of the Amorphia released by Adron's Disaster. All on his own? Never. Offered by the Lords of Judgement? How insane do you think they *are*? Their goal is to preserve the Orb and Empire against the Jenoine, not reward one who for all practical purposes helped to destroy the Empire and neutralize the Orb. However, on musing on the matter, it occurred to me that perhaps in addition to Mario and Adron causing the Disaster, there might have been interference (which Paarfi, and thus we the readers, never learned about) from either the Serioli dedicated to the downfall of the Empire, or from the Jenoine, or perhaps both. I have no shred of proof of this pararectal ideation, but I thought I would throw it out there. From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Sun Dec 7 20:19:13 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 20:19:13 -0800 Subject: Now *here's* a thought In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031208041913.GA13043@ofb.net> On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 03:28:31AM +0000, Jon Carey wrote: > > So what if Mario, being the living embodiment of the inevitability of > death, with Easterners and Dragaerans looking up to him as something almost Aaargh! Goddamn Mario worship. This does it. If we ever do see him, now I want him to be fat (for a Dragaeran) and gone to seed. Middle-aged playboy resting on his laurels and assassination fee. That or living in terror of being caught by the Empire. -xx- Damien X-) From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Dec 7 20:26:05 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 20:26:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: tukko In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Dec 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Sun, 7 Dec 2003, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: > > #The name you want is Dolivar. I don't believe his soul was Mario, as Vlad > #speaks of Mario in the present tense (I think in _Jhereg_). > > While I also don't think that Mario and Vlad are, um, soulmates, I'm > unwilling to pin a lot on Vlad's use. Someone on this list has described > Vlad's attitude toward Mario as something like superstitious awe. V may > be simply assuming that M is still alive. Have we seen any other > evidence one way or the other? I happen to think Mario is dead (at Sethra/Aliera's hand) (and hence that SKZB was messing with us) for no particularly good reason but my sense of rightness - but one semi-shred of evidence re no Mario would be someone's statement at the end of _Orca_ that she's not scared of him. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Dec 7 20:29:02 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 20:29:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Question on "Pressing" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Jon Carey wrote: [well, not exactly] > in Tai Chi we use the weight and force of the attacker's attack > to throw him to the ground And here I thought Tai Chi was a form of meditation. From rone at ennui.org Sun Dec 7 20:35:38 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 20:35:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Now *here's* a thought In-Reply-To: <20031208041913.GA13043@ofb.net> Message-ID: <20031208043538.E4AF426C39@boredom.ennui.org> Damien Sullivan writes: Aaargh! Goddamn Mario worship. If we ever do see him, now I want him to be fat (for a Dragaeran) and gone to seed. Middle-aged playboy resting on his laurels and assassination fee. Amen! rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Dec 7 20:36:05 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 20:36:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Now *here's* a thought In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Dec 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Jon Carey wrote: > > >What do you guys think of Mario the God, possibly Dolivar/Mario/Vlad the > >God(slayer)? > > > > Well, besides the fact that the Mario and Vlad are indeed seperate > persons, I think that you are giving Mario far more credit than he is > due. The only way I can see that young punk of a Jhereg attaining > Godhood is through the effects of the Amorphia released by Adron's > Disaster. All on his own? Never. Offered by the Lords of Judgement? > How insane do you think they *are*? Their goal is to preserve the Orb > and Empire against the Jenoine, not reward one who for all practical > purposes helped to destroy the Empire and neutralize the Orb. The gods serve the Cycle (I think) - and I suspect the Cycle was behind Adron's Mess, even if Paarfi is describing events accurately - so it may well be that Mario was a Jhereg for a good reason - he was the best soul available to do an impossible task, the kind of thing that (who knows) might qualify one for godhood, after the gods got the news from the Cycle that It's All In The Plan. After all, it cleared out a lot of deadwood, led to advances in magic tech, got the Orb to the Paths for an upgrade, and created the conditions for Vlad to arise. > I have no shred of proof of this pararectal ideation, but I thought I > would throw it out there. Ditto. From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Sun Dec 7 21:50:04 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 00:50:04 -0500 Subject: The Gypsy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FD4110C.9070301@earthlink.net> David Silberstein wrote: >On Sat, 6 Dec 2003, Jose Marquez wrote: > > >>I've been wanting to read The Gypsy for quite some time, and because I >>couldn't find any copies anywhere, I bought Songs from the Gypsy. I was >>very excited to hear the songs, of course, but I also was looking >>forward to reading the text of the novel. So here's the problem. I don't >>know how to get to the text of the novel. Anyone know what I need to do >>to get to the text? >> >> >> > >I recall having problems with the CD before. Let me get it and try it >now. > >[...] > >Weird. I can't see the data portion in Win2K at *all*. Not even >using tools like Nero to look at the track; all it sees are the 10 >audio track. OK, when in doubt, try Linux. > >[...] > >Ah! Linux sees the data portion with no problems. And looking at the >files, I now recall that another problem I was having is that >apparantly the book was meant to be read using an ancient and ugly >version of Quicktime. > > Interesting. So, if I don't own a Mac or have Linux, I won't be able to read the book on the CD? That sucks. I was hoping to have my cake and eat it too. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From matthew at infodancer.org Sun Dec 7 22:18:24 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 00:18:24 -0600 Subject: Question on "Pressing" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031208061824.GA1157@infodancer.org> On Sun, Dec 07, 2003 at 07:29:45PM -0800, David Silberstein wrote: > TECKLA, Chapter 10: > "He was pressing you, Vladimir. If he had continued, > he would have had the initiative and your balance > would have been not right." > "Pressing me?" > "Each time he shifted his feet, he would end with > his weight more forward. It is a trick some of > these elfs use. I think they don't know they > are doing it." > > It occurred to me that this "trick" might very well be > known to exist in the real world, and it is my hope that > those on this list who actually study and practice the > martial arts might comment on its factuality or lack > thereof. > > It seems to me that it would be something that could > occur any time an extremely tall fencer was facing > someone much smaller. > > Any thoughts? Aside from the obvious psychological aspects (ie, looming over your opponent to intimidate him), there's a practice in fencing that's very similar and called (IIRC) exactly the same thing. When facing an opponent inclined to retreat, you use a series of abortive attacks to force them back against the boundaries of the strip. If they aren't aware of what you are doing, you can then make a full lunge and push them over the boundary in the course of their parry; even if they are aware of it, once they are up against the boundary their options are reduced, and by continuing to press you can force them into an attack on your timing (to which you, of course, have a prepared riposte). You can use the same technique to subtly change the distance of an engagement, if for some reason you want to get closer without letting on that you wanted to. I'm not sure how well it would work without some boundary (like, say, an alley wall) to force your opponent against. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From matthew at infodancer.org Sun Dec 7 22:24:46 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 00:24:46 -0600 Subject: Now *here's* a thought In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031208062446.GB1157@infodancer.org> On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 03:28:31AM +0000, Jon Carey wrote: > Think of it, though. If anyone could get to be a God, ie, "offered" > divinity, as Sethra has repeatedly been, it would be someone who the > Dragaerans and Easterners alike look upon as super-human. Also, being the > beloved of the daughter of a God can't hurt. I wouldn't be surprised if he > turns out to be Devera's father. The two big problems, of course, are, can > there be incest between souls? and that Mario doesn't seem to be a > sorceror of any skill--but I have to ask, is that important? I think we > tend to equate divine power with evolved mystical and sorcerous skill, but, > like a God would say, I think it's both divinity *and* evolved magic. I > don't think that a being would really *need* any skill in sorcery to meet > the requisites of Godhood, or if he does, that that "sorcery" be as blatant > as the manipulation of amorphia or necrophia. Mario's magic is the magic > of death. The inevitability. It is a *very* powerful, and very > unignorable magic, but people don't really see it as magic as such. But I > think that in many ways, it *is* magical. It's certainly fing mysterious > enough to be. In my opinion the nature of divinity (in speculative fiction, anyway) is the submersion of identity in aspect. That is, in most fantasy worlds, you don't have "a god" who just happens to be a god. Gods are gods OF something, or sometimes of several things, and their powers are derived from their nature. Simply being a powerful sorceror is insufficient to make one a god. But an assassin could take on the role of a God of Death, or a patron god of assassins. Rather than give him powerful sorcery, such a god would instead find his own nature and abilities enhanced to the point of godhood. An excellent example of this would be Cotillion from Erikson's series of novels. Now, Dragaera doesn't have to follow those rules. But the Dragaerean gods appear to have aspects, rather than being merely powerful beings. So I suppose it could happen. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Sun Dec 7 22:24:28 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 22:24:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Gypsy In-Reply-To: <3FD4110C.9070301@earthlink.net> References: <3FD4110C.9070301@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Jose Marquez wrote: > Interesting. So, if I don't own a Mac or have Linux, I won't be able to > read the book on the CD? That sucks. I was hoping to have my cake and > eat it too. > > Jose It seems to me that you can ethically ask someone with Linux and the cd to send you a text file of the book. From greyw01f at hotmail.com Sun Dec 7 22:36:51 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 06:36:51 +0000 Subject: Question on "Pressing" Message-ID: heheheh meditation... Well, yes, Tai Chi *is* a form of meditation. It is also probably the most technically superior martial art out there. Designed as a counter to the offensive and flurry-of-blows kung-fu styles prevalent in China at the time, Tai Chi was designed to not only counter the Long Fist, but also be "unstealable" due to the extremely complex series of patterns which it uses. Keep in mind that the series itself is of secondary importance, and that the positioning of the Tan Tien and all the subsequent meridians is key. So, we have a martial art whose basis is such that there is no problem until the opponent enters into the space of the practioner, who, if trained properly, will use calm and confident diversionary techniques to ward off any strikes and crisp snapping motions of the limbs to simultaneously over-extend the opponent's striking hand to the point where it just may break, or at the very least, take the opponent off balance--and that lack of balance is the martial artist's playground. Tai Chi is based upon developing the "internal" or "soft" aspects of the martial artist, as opposed to Kung Fu, which focuses on developing the "external" or "hard" aspect of martial arts. But what is surprising is that Tai Chi becomes rather like water when confronted with an assault. Its softness becomes rather unyielding the more it is (com)pressed. /lecture Jon _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca From davids at kithrup.com Sun Dec 7 22:44:35 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 22:44:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Gypsy In-Reply-To: <3FD4110C.9070301@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Jose Marquez wrote: >Interesting. So, if I don't own a Mac or have Linux, I won't be able >to read the book on the CD? That sucks. I was hoping to have my cake >and eat it too. > Well, Linux *is* available as a free download. I was using a distribution called "Knoppix", which is the entire OS on a single bootable CD. But perhaps you don't have access to a broadband Internet service. Which OS *are* you using? There may in fact exist some workaround or other to access the data portion of the CD, but I cannot be certain that the tool or method will work with what you have unless I know what you have. From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Sun Dec 7 23:47:51 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2003 23:47:51 -0800 Subject: Question on "Pressing" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 20:29:02 -0800 (PST), you wrote: > > >On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Jon Carey wrote: [well, not exactly] > >> in Tai Chi we use the weight and force of the attacker's attack >> to throw him to the ground > >And here I thought Tai Chi was a form of meditation. Watch it speeded up some time. It's a serious form, just oft-neglected. Jeff From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Sun Dec 7 23:54:16 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 02:54:16 -0500 Subject: The Gypsy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FD42E28.4040304@earthlink.net> David Silberstein wrote: >On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Jose Marquez wrote: > > > >>Interesting. So, if I don't own a Mac or have Linux, I won't be able >>to read the book on the CD? That sucks. I was hoping to have my cake >>and eat it too. >> >> >> > >Well, Linux *is* available as a free download. I was using a >distribution called "Knoppix", which is the entire OS on a single >bootable CD. But perhaps you don't have access to a broadband >Internet service. > >Which OS *are* you using? > >There may in fact exist some workaround or other to access the >data portion of the CD, but I cannot be certain that the tool or >method will work with what you have unless I know what you have. > > I'm running Windows XP on an Athlon 3200+ processor, 1 GB RAM, with a DVD-ROM and CD-RW. I'm guessing that my video card info would be irrelevant in this case. I do have a DSL connection, but I'd rather not complicate my life with installing Linux on this machine or setting it up as a dual boot machine just to read the CD. I imagine that any workaround would involve the MCP-2 i-trax format mentioned on the back of the CD, but googling these terms didn't get me anything useful. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Dec 8 00:01:19 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 00:01:19 -0800 Subject: Question on "Pressing" References: Message-ID: <00a501c3bd61$76ce3a10$fe00000a@steve> ----- Original Message ----- On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 20:29:02 -0800 (PST), you wrote: > > >On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Jon Carey wrote: [well, not exactly] > >> in Tai Chi we use the weight and force of the attacker's attack >> to throw him to the ground > >And here I thought Tai Chi was a form of meditation. Watch it speeded up some time. It's a serious form, just oft-neglected. It's a floor polish AND a desert topping. From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Mon Dec 8 01:15:54 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 01:15:54 -0800 Subject: Question on "Pressing" In-Reply-To: <00a501c3bd61$76ce3a10$fe00000a@steve> References: <00a501c3bd61$76ce3a10$fe00000a@steve> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 00:01:19 -0800, you wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- > >On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 20:29:02 -0800 (PST), you wrote: > >> >> >>On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Jon Carey wrote: [well, not exactly] >> >>> in Tai Chi we use the weight and force of the attacker's attack >>> to throw him to the ground >> >>And here I thought Tai Chi was a form of meditation. > >Watch it speeded up some time. It's a serious form, just >oft-neglected. > >It's a floor polish AND a desert topping. > Ah, good old Shimmer.... Jeff From mtiller at ntlworld.com Mon Dec 8 05:01:07 2003 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 13:01:07 -0000 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: <001001c3bd8b$5b0a95b0$0101a8c0@sweetdre123rzw> Oops, only sent this to the sender initially. -----Original Message----- From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU] Sent: 04 December 2003 22:37 To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: OSC on the virtues of writer's block >Rather I should say that it seems to me people have a set of mostly >emotional viewpoints on what's right, and >that they effectively practice their religion and politics accordingly. Sorry, I've been away from email for a while (dead Primary master drive). I see both religion and politics as 2 attempts to solve the ethical dilemma. I can't remember the name for it, but it's the old one that goes as follows: If everybody contributes to a society, each receives back many times more than their own contribution and thus logiocally everybody should contribute.....BUT if you DON'T contribute and everybody else does, you are even better off.....However if everybody does that, everybody loses. Seems to me Politics and Religion are both attempts (neither terribly successsful) to get everybody to contribute so that everybody is better off. Mark From davids at kithrup.com Mon Dec 8 05:45:01 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 05:45:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Gypsy In-Reply-To: <3FD42E28.4040304@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Jose Marquez wrote: >> >I'm running Windows XP on an Athlon 3200+ processor, 1 GB RAM, with a >DVD-ROM and CD-RW. It sounds like you have 2 physical drives. If this is the case, then that exactly matches my current home machine setup, and is precisely useful because Knoppix, as I see I did not make clear, is a live filesystem distibution - when you boot off of the CD, you don't get an installer, you get a version of Linux that runs from a huge ramdisk and a compressed filesystem on the CD. It won't even mount your local hard drive read-write unless you explicitly tell it to. It's a great way to play around with Linux on any machine without actually having to install it. So anyway, I booted from the DVD-ROM, and read the Gypsy in the CD-RW drive. > I imagine that any workaround would involve the MCP-2 i-trax format >mentioned on the back of the CD, but googling these terms didn't get >me anything useful. > Well, it would involve *something* able to read that CD. I was thinking in terms of a more generic CD analyzing utility, which would include the ability to read i-trax, but would not be limited to just that. From Randi128 at aol.com Mon Dec 8 08:08:34 2003 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 11:08:34 -0500 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: <3C5514DB.32A20D29.007F4CFD@aol.com> In a message dated 12/8/2003 8:01:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, mtiller at ntlworld.com writes: > Oops, only sent this to the sender initially. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU] > Sent: 04 December 2003 22:37 > To: dragaera at dragaera.info > Subject: Re: OSC on the virtues of writer's block > > >Rather I should say that it seems to me people have a set of mostly > >emotional viewpoints on what's right, and > >that they effectively practice their religion and politics accordingly. > > Sorry, I've been away from email for a while (dead Primary master drive). I > see both religion and politics as 2 attempts to solve the ethical dilemma. > I can't remember the name for it, but it's the old one that goes as follows: > > If everybody contributes to a society, each receives back many times more > than their own contribution and thus logiocally everybody should > contribute.....BUT if you DON'T contribute and everybody else does, you are > even better off.....However if everybody does that, everybody loses. > > Seems to me Politics and Religion are both attempts (neither terribly > successsful) to get everybody to contribute so that > everybody is better off. > > Mark The "free rider" phenomena is one of the central problems facing any society. Several studies, (I cannot quote them as I am away from books), have concluded that it is the other members of society punishing the free rider, (ie:social censureship) that actually limits the free rider problem. Remember that most times the social punishment of a member of a society takes place because of altruistic motivation. In most cases the punisher may not gain anything directly from the act of punishing, in fact, the punisher may face social punishment themself if the other members of society do not agree with the act of punishing. Government, religeon and social structure only give the individual the frame work to act within. If these institutions have provided a framework whereby the free rider may be punished effectively, without the punisher being subject to social sanctions themselves, then the free rider problem may be controled or even eliminated. which gets back to the point, that polotics and religeon may not be successful in eliminating or controling the problem. I tried to keep it short and to the point, I hope I summarized correctly. John D. BArbato, OD From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu Mon Dec 8 08:25:04 2003 From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 08:25:04 -0800 Subject: tukko In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031208162504.GA13464@ofb.net> On Sun, Dec 07, 2003 at 08:26:05PM -0800, Philip Hart wrote: > I happen to think Mario is dead (at Sethra/Aliera's hand) (and hence that > SKZB was messing with us) for no particularly good reason but my sense of > rightness - but one semi-shred of evidence re no Mario would be someone's > statement at the end of _Orca_ that she's not scared of him. She says she doesn't share Vlad's superstitious dread of Mario. And consider who's saying it. I think it supports Mario being alive, if anything. Why should she fear Mario? -xx- Damien X-) From zarkon at illrepute.org Mon Dec 8 08:59:20 2003 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 11:59:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: tukko In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Dec 2003, David Silberstein wrote: @> Er, the comments by somebody named Steve Brust that Mario is still @> sparking Aliera, and has in fact just done so prior to a scene in @> JHEREG? It occurs to me that Mario is, apparently, considered to be good at killing people that are supposed to be unkillable. Further, it appears that someone who is now mostly unkillable has made, essentially, everyone in House Jhereg extremely upset with him and has gone to a very public place. From Talpianna at aol.com Mon Dec 8 09:34:45 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 12:34:45 EST Subject: Fwd: re Tiassa Message-ID: <1d7.15c5355b.2d061035@aol.com> http://www.crookedtimber.org/archives/000932.html I was finally able to get this link to open. I'm very interested in the book because I'm interested in oracles. Ever read Dorothy L. Sayers's essay on "Cheating the Oracle"? She theorizes about what might have happened if the people involved had not cheated but accepted their fate and made the best of it--how the oracle might have been fulfilled in a harmless manner. For example, Laius might have lived to a ripe old age and died of excitement over seeing his son or grandson win an Olympic event; and Oedipus might have been such a good ruler that he would have been said to be 'wed to his mother city.' The only concrete example of this happening that she found was an old Scandinavian tale, though. This is of particular interest to me as I have an essay in the works proving that the prophecy inscribed on the Ring in LORD OF THE RINGS is in fact fulfilled in a benign way--for example, the quest "binds them" in unity to destroy the Ring, rather than as its slaves. ' Has anyone read THE INDIVIDUATED HOBBIT, a Jungian interpretation of Tolkien, by Timothy R. O'Neill? tal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20031208/7da66e9e/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Casey Rousseau Subject: Re: re Tiassa Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 06:48:47 -0500 Size: 4980 Url: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20031208/7da66e9e/attachment.mht From Talpianna at aol.com Mon Dec 8 09:50:47 2003 From: Talpianna at aol.com (Talpianna at aol.com) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 12:50:47 EST Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block Message-ID: <15a.29336fc7.2d0613f7@aol.com> In a message dated 12/6/2003 4:21:03 PM US Mountain Standard Time, philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU writes: Dawkins/Dennett refer to evolutionary change along with culture as the Good Trick or Baldwin effect and say the combo speeds evolution but is not evolution per se, if I understand their thinking. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX Someone has studied the evolution of the Baldwin brothers??? tal From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com Mon Dec 8 09:48:57 2003 From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 09:48:57 -0800 Subject: Question on "Pressing" Message-ID: >From: David Silberstein >To: Dragaera List >Subject: Question on "Pressing" >Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 19:29:45 -0800 (PST) > > >TECKLA, Chapter 10: > > "He was pressing you, Vladimir. If he had continued, > he would have had the initiative and your balance > would have been not right." > > "Pressing me?" > > "Each time he shifted his feet, he would end with > his weight more forward. It is a trick some of > these elfs use. I think they don't know they > are doing it." > > >It occurred to me that this "trick" might very well be >known to exist in the real world, and it is my hope that >those on this list who actually study and practice the >martial arts might comment on its factuality or lack >thereof. > >It seems to me that it would be something that could >occur any time an extremely tall fencer was facing >someone much smaller. > >Any thoughts? Ye that is certainly a valid maneuvre to force an opponents off-balance and back, especially if the opponent doesn't realize it. It provides a distinct advantage when he/she is forced to abruptly adjust. James Griffin, Still Another Vlad faN P.S. I speak from rueful experiance. _________________________________________________________________ Wonder if the latest virus has gotten to your computer? Find out. Run the FREE McAfee online computer scan! http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From mam at theworld.com Mon Dec 8 13:30:17 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 16:30:17 -0500 Subject: Question on "Pressing" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Dec 2003, Philip Hart wrote: #On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Jon Carey wrote: [well, not exactly] # #> in Tai Chi we use the weight and force of the attacker's attack #> to throw him to the ground # #And here I thought Tai Chi was a form of meditation. Many use it so, including me. I learned the rounded "Yang style". But there are also straight-line lineages, which are used as fighting forms. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Mon Dec 8 13:35:51 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 16:35:51 -0500 Subject: tukko In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Dec 2003, David Silberstein wrote: #On Sun, 7 Dec 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: # #>On Sun, 7 Dec 2003, Peter H. Granzeau wrote: # #>#The name you want is Dolivar. I don't believe his soul was Mario, #>#as Vlad speaks of Mario in the present tense (I think in _Jhereg_). # #>While I also don't think that Mario and Vlad are, um, soulmates, I'm #>unwilling to pin a lot on Vlad's use. Someone on this list has #>described Vlad's attitude toward Mario as something like #>superstitious awe. V may be simply assuming that M is still alive. #>Have we seen any other evidence one way or the other? #> # #Er, the comments by somebody named Steve Brust that Mario is still #sparking Aliera, and has in fact just done so prior to a scene in #JHEREG? (gnurp) Well, if you insist... -- Mark A. Mandel From davids at kithrup.com Mon Dec 8 13:51:07 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 13:51:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Gypsy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, David Silberstein wrote: >On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Jose Marquez wrote: > >>> >>I'm running Windows XP on an Athlon 3200+ processor, 1 GB RAM, with a >>DVD-ROM and CD-RW. Update: I booted from a Win98 diskette, choosing CD-ROM support of course, and I was able to see the data portion of the CD. So Linux is not necessary. How is your hard-drive partitioned or formatted? If you have partition(s) that are FAT32 or FAT, it would be fairly simple to boot and copy the files from the CD to your harddisk. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Mon Dec 8 14:49:41 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 14:49:41 -0800 Subject: Mario's Secret Identify References: Message-ID: <005101c3bddd$915450f0$fe00000a@steve> Okay, I've thought it over carefully, based on everything I know, and I think I've figured out who Mario is. I mean, I'm not SURE, but it adds up pretty well. I've wondered if I should reveal it, because you might not like to know. But hey, I could be wrong--it's only a theory. So, anyway, just based on bits and pieces, I'm pretty sure Mario is Mark Mandel. I know some people think Kragar is Mario, but it seems obvious to me that Felix is Kragar. Of course, I might be wrong about that, too. From foodgod at pobox.com Mon Dec 8 14:51:07 2003 From: foodgod at pobox.com (Teddywolf) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 17:51:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Mario's Secret Identify In-Reply-To: <005101c3bddd$915450f0$fe00000a@steve> References: <005101c3bddd$915450f0$fe00000a@steve> Message-ID: <12153.169.152.251.99.1070923867.squirrel@mail.panix.com> Steven Brust said: > Okay, I've thought it over carefully, based on everything I know, and I > think I've figured out who Mario is. I mean, I'm not SURE, but it adds > up pretty well. I've wondered if I should reveal it, because you might > not like to know. But hey, I could be wrong--it's only a theory. > > So, anyway, just based on bits and pieces, I'm pretty sure Mario is Mark > Mandel. I know some people think Kragar is Mario, but it seems obvious > to me that Felix is Kragar. Of course, I might be wrong about that, > too. Can't be. Mark has a beard and Mario is Dragaeran :-) Height is about right though. Jacob From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Dec 8 14:52:11 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 14:52:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mario's Secret Identify In-Reply-To: <005101c3bddd$915450f0$fe00000a@steve> References: <005101c3bddd$915450f0$fe00000a@steve> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Steven Brust wrote: > Okay, I've thought it over carefully, based on everything I know, and I > think I've figured out who Mario is. I mean, I'm not SURE, but it adds up > pretty well. I've wondered if I should reveal it, because you might not > like to know. But hey, I could be wrong--it's only a theory. > > So, anyway, just based on bits and pieces, I'm pretty sure Mario is Mark > Mandel. I know some people think Kragar is Mario, but it seems obvious to > me that Felix is Kragar. Of course, I might be wrong about that, too. Uhh, whoever _you_ are, if Mark were Mario, certain people responsible for mangling his URL would have taken a walk down a short road by now. From rone at ennui.org Mon Dec 8 14:53:24 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 14:53:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mario's Secret Identify In-Reply-To: <12153.169.152.251.99.1070923867.squirrel@mail.panix.com> Message-ID: <20031208225324.0FD2426C48@boredom.ennui.org> Teddywolf writes: Can't be. Mark has a beard and Mario is Dragaeran :-) Height is about right though. Have you ever pulled on his beard? A dime says it's a fake. rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From Randi128 at aol.com Mon Dec 8 15:00:52 2003 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 18:00:52 -0500 Subject: Mario's Secret Identify Message-ID: <307E6D58.46F90862.007F4CFD@aol.com> In a message dated 12/8/2003 5:49:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, skzb at dreamcafe.com writes: > So, anyway, just based on bits and pieces, I'm pretty sure Mario is Mark > Mandel. I know some people think Kragar is Mario, but it seems obvious to > me that Felix is Kragar. Of course, I might be wrong about > that, too. And he would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for those darn kids and their dog. John D Barbato, OD From matthew at infodancer.org Mon Dec 8 15:05:08 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 17:05:08 -0600 Subject: Mario's Secret Identify In-Reply-To: <20031208225324.0FD2426C48@boredom.ennui.org> References: <12153.169.152.251.99.1070923867.squirrel@mail.panix.com> <20031208225324.0FD2426C48@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <20031208230508.GA23921@infodancer.org> On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 02:53:24PM -0800, rone wrote: > Teddywolf writes: > Can't be. Mark has a beard and Mario is Dragaeran :-) Height is about > right though. > Have you ever pulled on his beard? A dime says it's a fake. Speaking as a bearded one, pulling, tugging, or otherwise fondling the beard is recommended only for intimate persons of the appropriate gender. And even then it is not encouraged. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From foodgod at pobox.com Mon Dec 8 15:14:08 2003 From: foodgod at pobox.com (Teddywolf) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 18:14:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Mario's Secret Identify In-Reply-To: <20031208225324.0FD2426C48@boredom.ennui.org> References: <12153.169.152.251.99.1070923867.squirrel@mail.panix.com> <20031208225324.0FD2426C48@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: <38004.169.152.251.99.1070925248.squirrel@mail.panix.com> rone said: > Teddywolf writes: > Can't be. Mark has a beard and Mario is Dragaeran :-) Height is > about right though. > > Have you ever pulled on his beard? A dime says it's a fake. I'll bet you a dozen doughnuts (Krispy Kreme even) against that dime - but *you* have to be the one pulling his beard :-) Jacob From ReVibe68 at aol.com Mon Dec 8 16:17:30 2003 From: ReVibe68 at aol.com (ReVibe68 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 19:17:30 EST Subject: Now *here's* a thought Message-ID: <1e7.15191229.2d066e9a@aol.com> In a message dated 12/7/03 11:08:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, davids at kithrup.com writes: > Kieron the Conqueror has already been named as Devera's father. > Excuse me to be disagreeing with you gently, but Kieron is not Devera's father. I am under the impression that Mario is Devera's Pappy because Aliera is currently shagging Aforementioned Master-Assassin. But I'm curious as to what makes you think that Kieron is Devera's dad? Politicians and Diapers have one thing in common. They should be changed regularly and for The Same Reason!!. Truth Is Truth. From davids at kithrup.com Mon Dec 8 16:42:40 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 16:42:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Now *here's* a thought In-Reply-To: <1e7.15191229.2d066e9a@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 ReVibe68 at aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 12/7/03 11:08:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, >davids at kithrup.com writes: > > >> Kieron the Conqueror has already been named as Devera's father. >Excuse me to be disagreeing with you gently, but Kieron is not >Devera's father. But he is. This is not pararectal ideation, this is an /ex cathedra/ pronouncement. Handed down directly by Pope Steven Karl Zoltan, even. > I am under the impression that Mario is Devera's Pappy because >Aliera is currently shagging Aforementioned Master-Assassin. Shagging != Fathering. Especially in the Dragaeran Empire, where halfbreeds are deeply stigmatized. Especially to Aliera e'Kieron, who is exceedingly skilled in sorcery, and almost certainly has the contraceptive spells down cold. > >But I'm curious as to what makes you think that Kieron is Devera's >dad? > http://www.sequentialtart.com/archive/feb01/brust.shtml Scrolling down to the bottom: ST: Will we ever find out who the heck Deverra's father is? SB: I'm not sure. Of course, if you want me to tell you, I will. ST: All right, who is Deverra's father? SB: Kieron the Conqueror. From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Mon Dec 8 16:55:07 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 16:55:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Now *here's* a thought Message-ID: <200312090055.hB90t7g22625@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Possible Deverra Spoilers!! If ya don't wanna know, don't read! :) David Silberstein wrote: > >But I'm curious as to what makes you think that Kieron is Devera's > >dad? > Scrolling down to the bottom: > > > ST: Will we ever find out who the heck Deverra's father is? > > SB: I'm not sure. Of course, if you want me to tell you, I will. > > ST: All right, who is Deverra's father? > > SB: Kieron the Conqueror. And, of course, we've never known Steve to dissemble such things, have we? (Steve's last post, anyone?;) Of course, he may be playing the *real* bastard and giving it to us straight, in an effort to confuse the issue even more. Devious, I tell you. Simply DEVIOUS!! ;) Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From davids at kithrup.com Mon Dec 8 17:22:08 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 17:22:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Now *here's* a thought In-Reply-To: <200312090055.hB90t7g22625@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: >Possible Deverra Spoilers!! > >If ya don't wanna know, don't read! :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >David Silberstein wrote: >> >But I'm curious as to what makes you think that Kieron is Devera's >> >dad? >> Scrolling down to the bottom: >> >> >> ST: Will we ever find out who the heck Deverra's father is? >> >> SB: I'm not sure. Of course, if you want me to tell you, I will. >> >> ST: All right, who is Deverra's father? >> >> SB: Kieron the Conqueror. > > >And, of course, we've never known Steve to dissemble such things, >have we? (Steve's last post, anyone?;) Well, anything which is /prima facie/ a /reducto ad absurdum/ is /ipso facto/ not /ex cathedra/. We could, of course, implore him to bless his prior statement with a confirmation, but I seem to recall that the last time I did that, he had a hissy-cow. So, Steve, any chance of the genuine papal bull? From dd-b at dd-b.net Mon Dec 8 18:32:14 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: 08 Dec 2003 20:32:14 -0600 Subject: Mario's Secret Identify In-Reply-To: <20031208225324.0FD2426C48@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20031208225324.0FD2426C48@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: rone at ennui.org (rone) writes: > Teddywolf writes: > Can't be. Mark has a beard and Mario is Dragaeran :-) Height is about > right though. > > Have you ever pulled on his beard? A dime says it's a fake. If he really *is* Mario, I wouldn't want to risk pulling his beard, though. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From mam at theworld.com Mon Dec 8 19:23:49 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 22:23:49 -0500 Subject: Mario's Secret Identify In-Reply-To: <12153.169.152.251.99.1070923867.squirrel@mail.panix.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Teddywolf wrote: #Steven Brust said: #> Okay, I've thought it over carefully, based on everything I know, and I #> think I've figured out who Mario is. I mean, I'm not SURE, but it adds #> up pretty well. I've wondered if I should reveal it, because you might #> not like to know. But hey, I could be wrong--it's only a theory. #> #> So, anyway, just based on bits and pieces, I'm pretty sure Mario is Mark #> Mandel. I know some people think Kragar is Mario, but it seems obvious #> to me that Felix is Kragar. Of course, I might be wrong about that, #> too. # #Can't be. Mark has a beard and Mario is Dragaeran :-) You haven't seen me lately, have you? Of course, as far as height goes, you're a better candidate than I am. -- Mark A. Mandel From rone at ennui.org Mon Dec 8 19:27:23 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 19:27:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Now *here's* a thought In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031209032723.1C5CC26C41@boredom.ennui.org> David Silberstein writes: So, Steve, any chance of the genuine papal bull? I'm certain that anything we'd get from Steve on the subject would definitely qualify as genuine bull. rone -- "I don't even know you. What if you're a psycho?" "Would a psycho waste the last of his triple-sec?" -- RICHH From mam at theworld.com Mon Dec 8 19:29:39 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 22:29:39 -0500 Subject: Mario's Secret Identify In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: #On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Teddywolf wrote: # ##Can't be. Mark has a beard and Mario is Dragaeran :-) # #You haven't seen me lately, have you? Point your web browser to http://www.ldc.upenn.edu/About/Staff/index.shtml . Search for "Mandel", or scroll to a little more than halfway down the page. -- Mark A. Mandel Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania From warbi at warbi.net Mon Dec 8 22:03:59 2003 From: warbi at warbi.net (warbi) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 22:03:59 -0800 Subject: Mario's Secret Identity/Devera's Father Message-ID: <001701c3be1a$3e1cae40$3dadfea9@WarrenEBiggs> If Kragar is Mario, then he could certainly be Devera's father as well since Kragar is/was a Dragon. It might even explain why Morrolan has such disdain for him. Warbi From lister at insaneninjahero.com Tue Dec 9 07:18:04 2003 From: lister at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 07:18:04 -0800 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: References: <200312051745.hB5HjxO08517@panix1.panix.com> Message-ID: <3FD5E7AC.7050200@insaneninjahero.com> Philip Hart wrote: > > On Fri, 5 Dec 2003, Alexx Kay wrote: > > >>> [Snip] > >>If true, this theory has some interesting implications. Language >>evolved as a tool for easy differentiation of Culture, not because >>of intelligence. > > > I've long thought that language was developed so that people could > write poetry (or songs, if one insists) in order to get laid. > > I had a physics/chem prof in HS that insisted geeks invented language. They were near-sighted, you see, and so couldn't hit the broad side of a mammoth with a spear .... from inside the mammoth. So in order to survive, our proto-geek ancestors invented language to ... as you say, write poetry in order to get laid. Kisc From lister at insaneninjahero.com Tue Dec 9 07:23:50 2003 From: lister at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 07:23:50 -0800 Subject: tukko In-Reply-To: <009e01c3bd0d$10778a40$fe00000a@steve> References: <20031207002523.3495A26C32@boredom.ennui.org> <000301c3bcf4$e7926900$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> <009e01c3bd0d$10778a40$fe00000a@steve> Message-ID: <3FD5E906.3010905@insaneninjahero.com> Steven Brust wrote: > > > > what does Dri'Chazik a Tukknaro Dzur mean?. > > Tsk tsk. Now, that WOULD be telling. > > > > Dammit Mr. Brust, our brains are not a chew-toy! ;) Kisc From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us Tue Dec 9 08:56:05 2003 From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:56:05 -0500 Subject: Now *here's* a thought In-Reply-To: <20031208041913.GA13043@ofb.net> References: <20031208041913.GA13043@ofb.net> Message-ID: <20031209165605.GB35192@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> On Sun, Dec 07, 2003 at 08:19:13PM -0800, Damien Sullivan wrote: > Aaargh! Goddamn Mario worship. > > This does it. If we ever do see him, now I want him to be fat (for > a Dragaeran) and gone to seed. Middle-aged playboy resting on his > laurels and assassination fee. Oh, you mean like Paarfi in the afterword to 'Lord of Castle Black'? -- "I try not to sound old and cynical, but it's hard to do that when you're old and cynical." -me From mklahn at mac.com Tue Dec 9 09:26:30 2003 From: mklahn at mac.com (Matthew Klahn) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:26:30 -0600 Subject: tukko In-Reply-To: <3FD5E906.3010905@insaneninjahero.com> References: <20031207002523.3495A26C32@boredom.ennui.org> <000301c3bcf4$e7926900$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> <009e01c3bd0d$10778a40$fe00000a@steve> <3FD5E906.3010905@insaneninjahero.com> Message-ID: On Dec 9, 2003, at 9:23 , Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert wrote: > Steven Brust wrote: > >> > what does Dri'Chazik a Tukknaro Dzur mean?. >> Tsk tsk. Now, that WOULD be telling. >> > > Dammit Mr. Brust, our brains are not a chew-toy! ;) > > Kisc This just reminds me of a list of differences between everyday objects as seen by humans and dogs in _The Culture Clash_ by Jean Donaldson (a very good positive-reinforcement dog training manual) [This is a paraphrase, since I don't have the book with me]: Object To Humans To Dog ----------------------------------- Cat Companion RRO (Rapidly retreating object) Car Vehicle RRO Tennis ball Sports equipt. Chew toy Shoes Footware Chew toy Couch Furniture Chew toy Dog food Dog food Dog food Rabbit feces Waste product Dog food etc. So... maybe we need to do this sort of table for Mr. Brust: Object To Readers To Brust -------------------------------------------- Reader's brain Essential organ Chew toy Mario speculation Favorite pasttime Heh. Poker Gambling Supplementary income etc. -- Matthew S. Klahn Software Architect, CodeTek Studios, Inc. http://www.codetek.com From books at bofh.com Tue Dec 9 10:08:01 2003 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:08:01 -0700 Subject: Question on "Pressing" In-Reply-To: <00a501c3bd61$76ce3a10$fe00000a@steve> References: <00a501c3bd61$76ce3a10$fe00000a@steve> Message-ID: <20031209180801.GA19931@bofh.com> > >And here I thought Tai Chi was a form of meditation. > > Watch it speeded up some time. It's a serious form, just > oft-neglected. There is a very readable book (at home, naturally) that is written by an American on his trials and tribulations as he studied to become a shodan (ie black belt) in Shotokan Karate in Japan. One of the interesting things was his discussion with one of the sensei about a tai-chi master. The comment was (paraphrasing): "Mastering tai-chi is for the inhuman. Us mortals master the others." *sigh* Now, naturally, I will have to dig up the book and find the exact quote. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Tue Dec 9 10:36:05 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:36:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Question on "Pressing" Message-ID: <200312091836.hB9Ia5g00958@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Jot Powers wrote: > "Mastering tai-chi is for the inhuman. Us mortals master the others." Tai-Chi is often misunderstood and looked at only as a warm-up or stretching exercise. It is actualy very difficult to master. One would think the slow movements=easy-to-do, but I suggest trying it sometime. The focus must be intense, every movement balanced and exact. Another form I enjoy is Wu-Shu, which is a very fluid and flexible martial arts. It also incorporates various weapon-forms into the art (spear and sword, and the nine-section whip, one of my personal favorites...:) :) Chris "Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you in order to prove that it is, in fact, real." -Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot' From mtiller at ntlworld.com Tue Dec 9 10:53:03 2003 From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 18:53:03 -0000 Subject: OSC on the virtues of writer's block In-Reply-To: <3C5514DB.32A20D29.007F4CFD@aol.com> Message-ID: <001501c3be85$b6040370$0101a8c0@sweetdre123rzw> -----Original Message----- From: Randi128 at aol.com [mailto:Randi128 at aol.com] Sent: 08 December 2003 16:09 To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: Re: OSC on the virtues of writer's block >The "free rider" phenomena is one of the central problems facing any society. Several studies, (I cannot quote >them as I am away from books), have concluded that it is the other members of society punishing the free rider, >(ie:social censureship) that actually limits the free rider problem. >Remember that most times the social punishment of a member of a society takes place because of altruistic >motivation. In most cases the punisher may not gain anything directly from the act of punishing, in fact, the >punisher may face social punishment themself if the other members of society do not agree with the act of >punishing. >Government, religeon and social structure only give the individual the frame work to act within. If these >institutions have provided a framework whereby the free rider may be punished effectively, without the punisher >being subject to social sanctions themselves, then the free rider problem may be controled or even eliminated. >which gets back to the point, that polotics and religeon may not be successful in eliminating or controling the >problem. >I tried to keep it short and to the point, I hope I summarized correctly. Nice summation and very informative, thank you. Mark From mam at theworld.com Tue Dec 9 12:00:02 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 15:00:02 -0500 Subject: tukko In-Reply-To: <3FD5E906.3010905@insaneninjahero.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert wrote: #Steven Brust wrote: #> #> > what does Dri'Chazik a Tukknaro Dzur mean?. #> #> Tsk tsk. Now, that WOULD be telling. #Dammit Mr. Brust, our brains are not a chew-toy! ;) I think there's something of Loiosh in our Esteemed Author's psychological make-up. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From zarkon at illrepute.org Tue Dec 9 12:08:39 2003 From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 15:08:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Mario's Secret Identify In-Reply-To: <005101c3bddd$915450f0$fe00000a@steve> References: <005101c3bddd$915450f0$fe00000a@steve> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Steven Brust wrote: @> So, anyway, just based on bits and pieces, I'm pretty sure Mario is Mark @> Mandel. I know some people think Kragar is Mario, but it seems obvious to @> me that Felix is Kragar. Of course, I might be wrong about that, too. You know, that would explain the constant references to Mario's nigh-excessive grammatical correctness and penchant for filk. Besides, we've never seen them together. I think you've got an airtight case here. (Too bad, too. It blows the hell out of my own theory: Luigi is Mario.) From ivanrebollo at hotmail.com Tue Dec 9 12:35:14 2003 From: ivanrebollo at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?SXbhbiBSZWJvbGxv?=) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 20:35:14 +0000 Subject: Mario's Secret Identify Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Steven Brust wrote: >So, anyway, just based on bits and pieces, I'm pretty sure Mario is Mark >Mandel. I know some people think Kragar is Mario, but it seems obvious to >me that Felix is Kragar. Of course, I might be wrong about that, too. Come on, Mark, let all your heat-brained fellows know it: how does Aliera...? _________________________________________________________________ Descubre el mayor cat?logo de coches de la Red en MSN Motor. http://motor.msn.es/researchcentre/ From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Dec 9 12:36:09 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 12:36:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: tukko In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert wrote: > > #Steven Brust wrote: > #> > #> > what does Dri'Chazik a Tukknaro Dzur mean?. > #> > #> Tsk tsk. Now, that WOULD be telling. > > #Dammit Mr. Brust, our brains are not a chew-toy! ;) > > I think there's something of Loiosh in our Esteemed Author's > psychological make-up. Great, now _Loisosh_ is SKZB. One more time, everybody - No one else is anyone else. From mam at theworld.com Tue Dec 9 14:19:01 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 17:19:01 -0500 Subject: Mario's Secret Identify In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Iv?n Rebollo wrote: #On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Steven Brust wrote: # #>So, anyway, just based on bits and pieces, I'm pretty sure Mario is Mark #>Mandel. I know some people think Kragar is Mario, but it seems obvious to #>me that Felix is Kragar. Of course, I might be wrong about that, too. # #Come on, Mark, let all your heat-brained fellows know it: how does #Aliera...? It would be ungentlemanly to disclose any details. Let the subject be left at this: As everything else she does: very, very well. Steve, when you wrote "bits and pieces", were you actually thinking of another phrase with very similar meaning? -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From Gaertk at aol.com Tue Dec 9 14:24:17 2003 From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 17:24:17 -0500 Subject: Now *here's* a thought Message-ID: <24C4EACC.4C191DFD.00048EA6@aol.com> Matthew Hunter writes: > In my opinion the nature of divinity (in speculative > fiction, anyway) is the submersion of identity in aspect. >?That is, in most fantasy worlds, you don't have "a god" who > just happens to be a god. ?Gods are gods OF something, or > sometimes of several things, and their powers are derived > from their nature. ?Simply being a powerful sorceror is > insufficient to make one a god. ?But an assassin could take > on the role of a God of Death, or a patron god of > assassins. ? True, and that's practically a definition of polytheism. As for Vladio being the God of Assassins, remember that the only ability we *know* gods (and demons) have is being able to manifest in more than one place at a time. So the rumor that Mario is still around isn't evidence against the theory. > An excellent example of this would be Cotillion from > Erikson's series of novels. You know, when this thread started I immediately thought of Erikson's universe (probably since I'm currently re-reading _Deadhouse Gates_ while waiting for my copy of _House of Chains_ to arrive). For those of you unfamiliar with these books (the first will be published by Tor in June), much of the plot concerns conflicts among Ascendants, which Erikson describes (in an interview I found online): "All gods are ascendants but not all ascendants are gods. Hopefully, more will become clear as the series goes on. It's the notion of merit taken as far as I could manage; ascendancy is what happens when you pay for it, and pay for it dearly." While Ascendants are immortal, it looks like you have to die to Ascend (based on the four examples I've seen in the series, only one of which had an eyewitness). > Now, Dragaera doesn't have to follow those rules. ?But the > Dragaerean gods appear to have aspects, rather than being > merely powerful beings. ?So I suppose it could happen. And it's amusing (to me anyway) to imagine Vlad & Co. in Erikson's universe. High House Magic anyone? Queen -- Verra Consort -- Adron e'Kieron General -- Sethra Lavode Healer -- Aliera e'Kieron Soldier -- Morrolan e'Drien Virgin -- Devera Chef -- Vlad Taltos --KG From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Dec 9 14:27:38 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 14:27:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Now *here's* a thought In-Reply-To: <24C4EACC.4C191DFD.00048EA6@aol.com> References: <24C4EACC.4C191DFD.00048EA6@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 Gaertk at aol.com wrote: > Matthew Hunter writes: > > > In my opinion the nature of divinity (in speculative > > fiction, anyway) is the submersion of identity in aspect. > >?That is, in most fantasy worlds, you don't have "a god" who > > just happens to be a god. ?Gods are gods OF something, or > > sometimes of several things, and their powers are derived > > from their nature. ?Simply being a powerful sorceror is > > insufficient to make one a god. ?But an assassin could take > > on the role of a God of Death, or a patron god of > > assassins. ? > > True, and that's practically a definition of polytheism. > > As for Vladio being the God of Assassins, remember that the > only ability we *know* gods (and demons) have is being able > to manifest in more than one place at a time. So the rumor > that Mario is still around isn't evidence against the theory. > > > An excellent example of this would be Cotillion from > > Erikson's series of novels. Somebody needs to mention Lord of Light in this context. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Tue Dec 9 15:52:41 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 15:52:41 -0800 Subject: Mario's Secret Identify References: Message-ID: <000d01c3beaf$88f99c80$fe00000a@steve> #On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Steven Brust wrote: # #>So, anyway, just based on bits and pieces, I'm pretty sure Mario is Mark #>Mandel. I know some people think Kragar is Mario, but it seems obvious to #>me that Felix is Kragar. Of course, I might be wrong about that, too. # #Come on, Mark, let all your heat-brained fellows know it: how does #Aliera...? It would be ungentlemanly to disclose any details. Let the subject be left at this: As everything else she does: very, very well. Steve, when you wrote "bits and pieces", were you actually thinking of another phrase with very similar meaning? FDSN From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Tue Dec 9 15:56:14 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 15:56:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mario's Secret Identify In-Reply-To: <000d01c3beaf$88f99c80$fe00000a@steve> References: <000d01c3beaf$88f99c80$fe00000a@steve> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Steven Brust wrote: > > > #On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Steven Brust wrote: > # > #>So, anyway, just based on bits and pieces, I'm pretty sure Mario is Mark > #>Mandel. I know some people think Kragar is Mario, but it seems obvious > to > #>me that Felix is Kragar. Of course, I might be wrong about that, too. > # > #Come on, Mark, let all your heat-brained fellows know it: how does > #Aliera...? > > > It would be ungentlemanly to disclose any details. Let the subject be > > left at this: As everything else she does: very, very well. > > > Steve, when you wrote "bits and pieces", were you actually thinking of > > another phrase with very similar meaning? > > FDSN Free Software Development Network? They're interested in Dragaera? From davids at kithrup.com Tue Dec 9 16:27:11 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 16:27:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mario's Secret Identify In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > >On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Steven Brust wrote: > >> > Steve, when you wrote "bits and pieces", were you actually >> > thinking of another phrase with very similar meaning? >> >> FDSN > >Free Software Development Network? They're interested in Dragaera? > No, no, he wrote "FDSN". Acronymfinder says that that expands to: Federation of Digital Broadband Seismographic Networks Well. Obviously, the earth moved. Although we should not forget that SKZB suffers from dyslexia. Perhaps he meant "BDSM"? From davids at kithrup.com Tue Dec 9 17:52:29 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 17:52:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Gypsy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, David Silberstein wrote: >On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > >>On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Jose Marquez wrote: >> >>>I'm running Windows XP on an Athlon 3200+ processor, 1 GB RAM, with a >>>DVD-ROM and CD-RW. > >Update: I booted from a Win98 diskette, choosing CD-ROM support of >course, and I was able to see the data portion of the CD. > >So Linux is not necessary. Furthur update: I have been doing some more research, and I think I can explain what I have found (skip to the end if you're not interested in the messy technical details). The "i-trax" format is apparantly the same as, or exceedingly similar to, a format called "CD-ROM Ready". This format calls for creating the CD in such a way that the pregap area before the first track is used for data. Note that this is highly non-standard! The pregap area is supposed to only be 3 seconds long. The data area on the Gypsy is about 115 MB, which comes to about 11 or 12 minutes! But an ordinary CD player just skips the whole thing. Now, the reason this works in DOS & Linux is because these OSes start reading from the index of 0 - the CD driver sees the filesystem, and displays the files in there. The audio tracks start at an index of 1 (and on Linux, I can play the audio tracks while looking at the datafiles. Pretty nifty, eh?). But for some reason, Microsoft apparantly decided to break this behavior. I think it might be because they built Windows 2000, and later Windows XP, from the Windows NT codeline. I had severe problems reading the CD on NT; it did not like the strange formatting at all. So I suspect they fixed the problems NT was having with such CDs, but did so in such a way that the CD driver would only show the audio tracks. I suspect they did not care about breaking i-trax because that format is apparantly very rare, and is not longer used to create mixed audio & data CDs. Anyway, after trying all sorts of different searches, I found reference to someone else who had a similarly hidden track, and said that the tool that was able to access it was called Isobuster. I downloaded this program, and it works very well. I am able to see the data in the track 1 pregap of /The Gypsy/ in Windows 2000, no booting tricks necessary, and copy it off. I am nearly certain that it will work fine on Windows XP as well. http://www.smart-projects.net/isobuster/ From davids at kithrup.com Tue Dec 9 18:30:24 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 18:30:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Gypsy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I was browsing the files on the CD, and could not help but notice a file called "HIDDEN.TXT". Naturally, I opened it. For your amusement, this is what it contains: The offical pizza of Beer & Pizza, Inc. is a large pepperoni and raw onion The official beer of Beer & Pizza, Inc. is not Coors The official guitar of Beer & Pizza, Inc. is a 1978 black Strat with white pickguard The official dictionary of Beer & Pizza, Inc. is the Oxford English Dictionary, but we usually use the American Heritage The Transitive Vampire is the official grammar book of Beer & Pizza, Inc. Miska der Wunderhunt would be the official dog of Beer & Pizza, Inc. if he had a brain. Hegel is the official philosopher of Beer & Pizza, Inc. Val Kilmer is the official Oscar nominee of Beer & Pizza, Inc for his role of John "Doc" Holiday in Tombstone Were it not for DDB's help, this would not be here What if there were no hypothetical situations? On The Gypsy, Robin, at various times, is playing the Egyptian Tabla, riq, tourra, muzhar, and tapan as well as what the Mustaphas call the "kit of drums." Drew Miller's tatoo was done by Alex Herman Flippy's hair is his own Robin is really like that Adam is not availible for comment Betsy Rulz! Boiled in Lead and Beer & Pizza Inc. are official Friends of Toad Hall So There. "Many desire to kill me, and many wish to spend an hour chatting with me. The law protects me from the former." -- Karl Kraus From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Wed Dec 10 10:15:28 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:15:28 -0500 Subject: The Gypsy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FD762C0.2070508@earthlink.net> David Silberstein wrote: >Anyway, after trying all sorts of different searches, I found >reference to someone else who had a similarly hidden track, and said >that the tool that was able to access it was called Isobuster. > >I downloaded this program, and it works very well. I am able to >see the data in the track 1 pregap of /The Gypsy/ in Windows 2000, no >booting tricks necessary, and copy it off. I am nearly certain that >it will work fine on Windows XP as well. > > http://www.smart-projects.net/isobuster/ > > You are correct, sir. I'm extremely pleased. Now that I can access the data on the CD, I'm going to see if I can make it work the way it was apparently meant to: using all those menus and sound files. A thousand thank yous. Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From bph7 at cornell.edu Wed Dec 10 10:21:36 2003 From: bph7 at cornell.edu (Ben Hiles) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:21:36 -0500 Subject: Now *here's* a thought In-Reply-To: <1e7.15191229.2d066e9a@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20031210132115.0400f8f0@postoffice7.mail.cornell.edu> At 07:17 PM 12/8/2003 -0500, ReVibe68 at aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 12/7/03 11:08:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, >davids at kithrup.com writes: > > > > Kieron the Conqueror has already been named as Devera's father. > > >Excuse me to be disagreeing with you gently, but Kieron is not Devera's >father. I am under the impression that Mario is Devera's Pappy because >Aliera is >currently shagging Aforementioned Master-Assassin. But I'm curious as to >what >makes you think that Kieron is Devera's dad? http://www.sequentialtart.com/archive/jan01/brust.shtml From wyrmouroboros at comcast.net Wed Dec 10 14:32:06 2003 From: wyrmouroboros at comcast.net (wyrmouroboros at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 22:32:06 +0000 Subject: tukko Message-ID: <121020032232.12905.2d1c@comcast.net> > I think there's something of Loiosh in our Esteemed Author's > psychological make-up. > -- Mark A. Mandel Out of the very nature of the writer. If there was not, Loiosh would not exist. Or, to maul Mssr. Descarte's famous aphorism: "Steve thinks, therefore Loiosh is." Every roleplayer instinctively knows the line of Whitman's Song of Myself: "(I am large, I contain multitudes.)" Every writer knows it as well. I do, in list and Vlad tradition, generalize off one example, namely myself -- but it is logical, obvious, veritably a necessity of the condition of playing a role, of writing the actions of others of not-necessarily-like-minds. Which would, of course, suggest that actors share this 'insanity' as well... I, for one, am glad I am in such good company. Thomas Crain From jhereg69 at earthlink.net Wed Dec 10 14:55:54 2003 From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 17:55:54 -0500 Subject: tukko In-Reply-To: <121020032232.12905.2d1c@comcast.net> References: <121020032232.12905.2d1c@comcast.net> Message-ID: <3FD7A47A.2050505@earthlink.net> wyrmouroboros at comcast.net wrote: >>I think there's something of Loiosh in our Esteemed Author's >>psychological make-up. >>-- Mark A. Mandel >> >> > >Out of the very nature of the writer. If there was not, Loiosh would not exist. Or, to maul Mssr. Descarte's famous aphorism: > > "Steve thinks, therefore Loiosh is." > >Every roleplayer instinctively knows the line of Whitman's Song of Myself: "(I am large, I contain multitudes.)" Every writer knows it as well. I do, in list and Vlad tradition, generalize off one example, namely myself -- but it is logical, obvious, veritably a necessity of the condition of playing a role, of writing the actions of others of not-necessarily-like-minds. Which would, of course, suggest that actors share this 'insanity' as well... > >I, for one, am glad I am in such good company. > > >Thomas Crain > > I have to admit to being a roleplayer and being familiar with the Whitman quote only because Chris Turkel uses it as a sig file. I don't know how it instinctively applies to roleplaying. Do I appear dense? Very well, I appear dense (I am large, I take up space) Jose -- Jose Marquez jhereg69 at earthlink.net From ReVibe68 at aol.com Wed Dec 10 16:35:38 2003 From: ReVibe68 at aol.com (ReVibe68 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:35:38 EST Subject: Fwd: Now *here's* a thought Message-ID: <65.1e747d63.2d0915da@aol.com> In a message dated 12/10/03 1:22:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, bph7 at cornell.edu writes: > > Kieron the Conqueror has already been named as Devera's father. > > > > >Excuse me to be disagreeing with you gently, but Kieron is not Devera's > >father. I am under the impression that Mario is Devera's Pappy because > >Aliera is > >currently shagging Aforementioned Master-Assassin. But I'm curious as to > >what > >makes you think that Kieron is Devera's dad? > > http://www.sequentialtart.com/archive/jan01/brust.shtml > Well. I now stand absolutely, unequivocally and irrevocably(for the moment until Steve changes his mind.) Corrected. sig: "So Say We All!"-Adama -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20031210/25488f5d/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Ben Hiles Subject: Re: Now *here's* a thought Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:21:36 -0500 Size: 2196 Url: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20031210/25488f5d/attachment.mht From books at bofh.com Fri Dec 12 08:02:57 2003 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 09:02:57 -0700 Subject: Question on "Pressing" In-Reply-To: <20031209180801.GA19931@bofh.com> References: <00a501c3bd61$76ce3a10$fe00000a@steve> <20031209180801.GA19931@bofh.com> Message-ID: <20031212160257.GA12224@bofh.com> On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 11:08:01AM -0700, Jot Powers wrote: > > >And here I thought Tai Chi was a form of meditation. > > > > Watch it speeded up some time. It's a serious form, just > > oft-neglected. [...] > "Mastering tai-chi is for the inhuman. Us mortals master the others." > > Now, naturally, I will have to dig up the book and find the exact quote. _Moving Zen (Karate As a Way to Gentleness)_ by C.W. Nicol pg 49 [...] In that case, I countered, what about Tai chi chuan? Nakayama sensei [then chief instructor] laughed, and with a smile he said, "For human beings, Karate is the best way. But there are some men who are superhuman, and perhaps a few of the Tai chi sensei are just that." -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From davids at kithrup.com Fri Dec 12 08:37:40 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 08:37:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Question on "Pressing" In-Reply-To: <20031212160257.GA12224@bofh.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, Jot Powers wrote: > >_Moving Zen (Karate As a Way to Gentleness)_ by C.W. Nicol > >pg 49 > >[...] In that case, I countered, what about Tai chi chuan? Nakayama >sensei [then chief instructor] laughed, and with a smile he said, >"For human beings, Karate is the best way. But there are some men who >are superhuman, and perhaps a few of the Tai chi sensei are just that." > On a tangent to this, (and writing as someone who doesn't really know anything on the topic but occasionally watches with interest, or reads a historical or instructional text): There was a show on the Discovery Channel recently called "Xtreme Martial Arts", http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/xma/xma.html And watching some of the many and varied styles, both with weapons and unarmed, my impression is that the Chinese martial arts have a tendency towards being much more swirly and flashy, with a lot more motions that might be meant to distract the opponent (such as the drunken style). The Japanese styles, from what I could see, are usually more direct and choppy, in contrast. The Chinese styles are, I think, more visually interesting (which might be why there a lot more movies about Chinese fighting styles). The XMA competetion itself felt Chinese, despite the fact that Japanese weapons and styles were used as well. The very notion of combining martial arts and gymnastics seems like a more Chinese style thing to do. From books at bofh.com Fri Dec 12 09:37:05 2003 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 10:37:05 -0700 Subject: Question on "Pressing" In-Reply-To: References: <20031212160257.GA12224@bofh.com> Message-ID: <20031212173705.GA12685@bofh.com> > There was a show on the Discovery Channel recently called "Xtreme > Martial Arts", > > http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/xma/xma.html I could only stomach watching about the first 20 minutes of that. > And watching some of the many and varied styles, both with weapons and > unarmed, my impression is that the Chinese martial arts have a > tendency towards being much more swirly and flashy, with a lot more > motions that might be meant to distract the opponent (such as the > drunken style). > > The Japanese styles, from what I could see, are usually more > direct and choppy, in contrast. I think this is generically true, although things like Aikido violate this generality. > The Chinese styles are, I think, more visually interesting (which > might be why there a lot more movies about Chinese fighting styles). It is obvious that any movie on martial arts isn't going to be how it is really practiced. 3 moves, fight over, just doesn't make for interesting cinema. :) -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Dec 12 10:08:45 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:08:45 -0600 Subject: Question on "Pressing" In-Reply-To: References: <20031212160257.GA12224@bofh.com> Message-ID: <20031212180845.GB1387@infodancer.org> On Fri, Dec 12, 2003 at 08:37:40AM -0800, David Silberstein wrote: > On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, Jot Powers wrote: > And watching some of the many and varied styles, both with weapons and > unarmed, my impression is that the Chinese martial arts have a > tendency towards being much more swirly and flashy, with a lot more > motions that might be meant to distract the opponent (such as the > drunken style). > > The Japanese styles, from what I could see, are usually more > direct and choppy, in contrast. That's a little odd; the Japanese came up with Aikido, Aiki-Jutsu, and probably more styles in the "extremely circular" category. Perhaps the selection of Japanese martial arts simply didn't include those as examples? -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM Fri Dec 12 10:11:52 2003 From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 10:11:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Question on "Pressing" Message-ID: <200312121811.hBCIBqg04688@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Jot Powers wrote: > It is obvious that any movie on martial arts isn't going to be how it > is really practiced. 3 moves, fight over, just doesn't make for > interesting cinema. :) Combine that with the fact that movie fights are choreographed, and you'll get the general idea. I've seen martial arts tournaments (and participated in a couple, ouch!) and they're never like the movies. They usualy involve the participants circling each other, mixed with a flurry of blows, kicks, and blocks. And yeah, it can often be a "3-move, done" fight. Chris (Who always seemed to be in the wrong age group, pitted against bigger, more aggressive people. AKA: Got my butt kicked. ) "So farewell hope, and with hope, farewell fear, Farewell remorse! All good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my Good" - John Milton - 'Paradise Lost' From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Dec 12 10:58:31 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 10:58:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Question on "Pressing" In-Reply-To: <200312121811.hBCIBqg04688@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> References: <200312121811.hBCIBqg04688@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > Jot Powers wrote: > > It is obvious that any movie on martial arts isn't going to be how it > > is really practiced. 3 moves, fight over, just doesn't make for > > interesting cinema. :) > > Combine that with the fact that movie fights are choreographed, > and you'll get the general idea. > > I've seen martial arts tournaments (and participated in a couple, ouch!) > and they're never like the movies. They usualy involve the > participants circling each other, mixed with a flurry of > blows, kicks, and blocks. And yeah, it can often be a "3-move, done" > fight. Is it Zelazny's book _Doorways in the Sand_ where we see a duel between two expert swordsmen, the duel consisting entirely of the men circling each other looking for an deadly advantage? I remember one dueler saying, "You almost had me there" at some point, though nothing visible changed. From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Dec 12 12:18:30 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:18:30 -0600 Subject: Question on "Pressing" In-Reply-To: References: <200312121811.hBCIBqg04688@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <20031212201830.GA1230@infodancer.org> On Fri, Dec 12, 2003 at 10:58:31AM -0800, Philip Hart wrote: > On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote: > > Jot Powers wrote: > > > It is obvious that any movie on martial arts isn't going to be how it > > > is really practiced. 3 moves, fight over, just doesn't make for > > > interesting cinema. :) > > Combine that with the fact that movie fights are choreographed, > > and you'll get the general idea. > > I've seen martial arts tournaments (and participated in a couple, ouch!) > > and they're never like the movies. They usualy involve the > > participants circling each other, mixed with a flurry of > > blows, kicks, and blocks. And yeah, it can often be a "3-move, done" > > fight. > Is it Zelazny's book _Doorways in the Sand_ where we see a duel between > two expert swordsmen, the duel consisting entirely of the men circling > each other looking for an deadly advantage? I remember one dueler saying, > "You almost had me there" at some point, though nothing visible changed. I'm not familiar with that reference, though it's a common concept. Samurai were said to have duels that to an outside observer consisted almost entirely of staring contests -- complete stillness, but whichever samurai lost his focus lost the duel. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From davids at kithrup.com Fri Dec 12 12:21:47 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:21:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Question on "Pressing" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >Is it Zelazny's book _Doorways in the Sand_ where we see a duel >between two expert swordsmen, the duel consisting entirely of the men >circling each other looking for an deadly advantage? I remember one >dueler saying, "You almost had me there" at some point, though >nothing visible changed. I think you are thinking of ROADMARKS, and the combatants are not swordsmen but rather bare-hand martial artists, changing their stances as they circled each other. One is an enhanced cyborg soldier, the other was a monk (who was probably something else before he was a monk). [Google] The soldier was Archie Shellman, the monk was Timyin Tin. The only martial arts I can recall from DOORWAYS IN THE SAND was someone who was rather handy with the shillelagh. From books at bofh.com Fri Dec 12 12:34:26 2003 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 13:34:26 -0700 Subject: Question on "Pressing" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031212203426.GA13891@bofh.com> > >Is it Zelazny's book _Doorways in the Sand_ where we see a duel > >between two expert swordsmen, the duel consisting entirely of the men > >circling each other looking for an deadly advantage? I remember one > >dueler saying, "You almost had me there" at some point, though > >nothing visible changed. I watch video of the late kumite rounds of the world Shotokan Cup a few years ago. It was remarkably like this. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Dec 12 12:32:38 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:32:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Question on "Pressing" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > >Is it Zelazny's book _Doorways in the Sand_ where we see a duel > >between two expert swordsmen, the duel consisting entirely of the men > >circling each other looking for an deadly advantage? I remember one > >dueler saying, "You almost had me there" at some point, though > >nothing visible changed. > > I think you are thinking of ROADMARKS, and the combatants are not > swordsmen but rather bare-hand martial artists, changing their stances > as they circled each other. One is an enhanced cyborg soldier, the > other was a monk (who was probably something else before he was a > monk). [Google] The soldier was Archie Shellman, the monk was Timyin > Tin. > > The only martial arts I can recall from DOORWAYS IN THE SAND was > someone who was rather handy with the shillelagh. Hmm, Google on those terms gives me zilch. Anyway, yeah, _Roadmarks_. I now remember enough of _DitS_ to know I would have remembered the scene more clearly in that book. I've only got two or three accessible memories from _Roadmarks_. Re Zelazny, has anyone read _Lord Demon_, about Kai Wren, Godslayer? Amazon readers seem to think it wasn't a successful reconstruction of a fragment. I wonder if GS was a reference to SKZB - some of the plot seems to allude to _To Reign in Hell_. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Dec 12 12:35:29 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:35:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Question on "Pressing" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Apropos of nothing, I like the name/design of this shotokan site; http://www.24fightingchickens.com/index.html From davids at kithrup.com Fri Dec 12 12:36:25 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:36:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Question on "Pressing" In-Reply-To: <20031212180845.GB1387@infodancer.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: >On Fri, Dec 12, 2003 at 08:37:40AM -0800, David Silberstein > wrote: >> And watching some of the many and varied styles, both with weapons and >> unarmed, my impression is that the Chinese martial arts have a >> tendency towards being much more swirly and flashy, with a lot more >> motions that might be meant to distract the opponent (such as the >> drunken style). >> >> The Japanese styles, from what I could see, are usually more >> direct and choppy, in contrast. > >That's a little odd; the Japanese came up with Aikido, >Aiki-Jutsu, and probably more styles in the "extremely circular" >category. Perhaps the selection of Japanese martial arts simply >didn't include those as examples? > They did not, actually. But I have seen Aikido, and I thought of it as a counterexample as I typed that above. Perhaps I am not using the correct phrasing, though. Maybe I mean that Chinese style is more elaborate and ornate, and Japanese is more austere and simplified? I dunno. It was just a vague impression, anyhow. From frank at exit.com Fri Dec 12 12:48:24 2003 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:48:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Question on "Pressing" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200312122048.hBCKmPD4094718@realtime.exit.com> David Silberstein wrote: > I think you are thinking of ROADMARKS, and the combatants are not > swordsmen but rather bare-hand martial artists, changing their stances > as they circled each other. One is an enhanced cyborg soldier, the > other was a monk (who was probably something else before he was a > monk). [Google] The soldier was Archie Shellman, the monk was Timyin > Tin. Um, yeah, Timyin Tin was the former Berserker-type (reformed) robot, wasn't he? The one left over from a much-earlier set of wars? -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From alexx at panix.com Fri Dec 12 12:53:30 2003 From: alexx at panix.com (Alexx Kay) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 15:53:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: Question on "Pressing" In-Reply-To: <20031212201830.GA1230@infodancer.org> from "Matthew Hunter" at Dec 12, 2003 02:18:30 PM Message-ID: <200312122053.hBCKrUf15336@panix3.panix.com> > On Fri, Dec 12, 2003 at 10:58:31AM -0800, Philip Hart wrote: > I'm not familiar with that reference, though it's a common > concept. Samurai were said to have duels that to an outside > observer consisted almost entirely of staring contests -- > complete stillness, but whichever samurai lost his focus lost the > duel. There's a marvelous scene in one of the Lone Wolf & Cub comics that this reminds me of. Pages and pages go by of the two samurai staring at each other without moving, while, in a slightly-different artistic style, we see the mental playing-out of "What will happen if I attack *now*?" over and over, until he finds a version that he's willing to try and bring about. Alexx Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers. alexx at carolingiaSPAMBL@CK.org http://www.panix.com/~alexx "Negotiating with Disney is not so much like Good Cop - Bad Cop as it is like Bad Cop - AntiChrist." -- Bill Plympton. From books at bofh.com Fri Dec 12 13:05:40 2003 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:05:40 -0700 Subject: Question on "Pressing" In-Reply-To: <3FDA2A94.4040002@insaneninjahero.com> References: <20031212203426.GA13891@bofh.com> <3FDA2A94.4040002@insaneninjahero.com> Message-ID: <20031212210540.GA14156@bofh.com> > Kumite is a real art? Kumite is the "fighting" or probably more correctly, sparring portion of martial arts. Contrasted with kata, the forms portions. (Or more precisely, imaginary combat :) -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From books at bofh.com Fri Dec 12 13:08:40 2003 From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:08:40 -0700 Subject: "Zelany's" _Lord Demon_ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20031212210840.GB14156@bofh.com> > Re Zelazny, has anyone read _Lord Demon_, about Kai Wren, Godslayer? > Amazon readers seem to think it wasn't a successful reconstruction of a > fragment. I wonder if GS was a reference to SKZB - some of the plot seems > to allude to _To Reign in Hell_. I actually just read it. Picked it up used, recognized that it was likely less Zelany than the other author. I enjoyed it. It had clear Zelany elements, but was obviously filled in by someone who was not, but that made it a bit more accessible. In my mind, Zelany can sometimes be a challenging read. Of course, my all time favorite Zelany is _Lord of Light_, so I may not be the best person to ask. -Jot -- Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan From warbi at warbi.net Fri Dec 12 15:06:05 2003 From: warbi at warbi.net (warbi) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 15:06:05 -0800 Subject: Zelazny's Collaborations Message-ID: <002d01c3c104$de480e40$3dadfea9@WarrenEBiggs> The only Zelazny collaboration that I ever read was The Black Throne. Of course I like Saberhagen too and it didn't hurt that it was basically a homage to Poe. In general I don't enjoy collaborations as much as authors by themselves. Warbi From ljenab at sunflower.com Fri Dec 12 13:19:48 2003 From: ljenab at sunflower.com (ljenab at sunflower.com) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 15:19:48 -0600 Subject: "Zelany's" _Lord Demon_ In-Reply-To: <20031212210840.GB14156@bofh.com>; from books@bofh.com on Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:08:40 -0700 Message-ID: <200312122119.hBCLJmf22644@smtp.sunflower.com> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20031212/c874db31/attachment.asc From davids at kithrup.com Fri Dec 12 13:35:06 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 13:35:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Question on "Pressing" In-Reply-To: <200312122048.hBCKmPD4094718@realtime.exit.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, Frank Mayhar wrote: >David Silberstein wrote: >> I think you are thinking of ROADMARKS, and the combatants are not >> swordsmen but rather bare-hand martial artists, changing their stances >> as they circled each other. One is an enhanced cyborg soldier, the >> other was a monk (who was probably something else before he was a >> monk). [Google] The soldier was Archie Shellman, the monk was Timyin >> Tin. > >Um, yeah, Timyin Tin was the former Berserker-type (reformed) robot, >wasn't he? The one left over from a much-earlier set of wars? No, that was Mondomay. He was a potter, and he never even met Archie. Timyin Tin liked flowers, and was human (to the best of my knowledge). I may be off on my spelling. It might be that "Mondomay" should be "Mondamay". And "Shellman" might be "Shellmann". That's what the web page I found says, anyway. From frank at exit.com Fri Dec 12 13:54:13 2003 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 13:54:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Question on "Pressing" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200312122154.hBCLsD3T095895@realtime.exit.com> David Silberstein wrote: > On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, Frank Mayhar wrote: > >Um, yeah, Timyin Tin was the former Berserker-type (reformed) robot, > >wasn't he? The one left over from a much-earlier set of wars? > No, that was Mondomay. He was a potter, and he never even met Archie. > Timyin Tin liked flowers, and was human (to the best of my knowledge). Ah, yes, thanks for the correction. Brain short-circuit, probably due to this cold I'm still fighting the dregs of. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From tsarren at alyra.org Fri Dec 12 14:00:24 2003 From: tsarren at alyra.org (Tsarren) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 16:00:24 -0600 Subject: Question on "Pressing" In-Reply-To: References: <200312121811.hBCIBqg04688@phys-hanwk14-1.ebay.sun.com> Message-ID: <20031212220024.GS11456@Durandal> On Fri, Dec 12, 2003 at 10:58:31AM -0800, Philip Hart wrote: > > Is it Zelazny's book _Doorways in the Sand_ where we see a duel between > two expert swordsmen, the duel consisting entirely of the men circling > each other looking for an deadly advantage? I remember one dueler saying, > "You almost had me there" at some point, though nothing visible changed. > There was a scene in one of the latter LK Hamilton books that makes this sort of confrontation a little more aprehensible to readers. (no plot spoilers) It is written in first-person perspective; a man walks into the office of the protagonist (she is armed with a pistol, among other things) for his appointment and sits down. As the protagonist is speaking with him, she decides she doesn't like the look of this guy - he's entirely too average and unremarkable, and there are several potential places where he could be concealing a weapon. As a precaution (she's justifiably paranoid at this point), the protagonist casually shifts/lowers her arms into a position that gives her excellent access to her pistol. The man sees this action, but is just late enough in comprehending its purpose that she has the advantage. After a tense exchange of words, the man, who is a professional assasin, congragulates her for getting the drop on him - she's apparrently the first in a rather long time to do so. I am afb and it has been at least 1.5 years since I read this book, so I could be mis-remembering, but I believe I got the gist of it. Kat From bio_phy at hotmail.com Fri Dec 12 14:00:09 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 16:00:09 -0600 Subject: "Zelany's" _Lord Demon_ Message-ID: Nobody wrote like Zelazny, therefore, the colaborations usually ventured away from his trademark spare descriptions, lyrical prose, and breathless pacing. I remember that _Coils_ with Fred Saberhagen wasn't too bad, but I never finished _Deus Irae_ and can't read any of the most recent things. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ "A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man." - Jedediah Springfield >From: ljenab at sunflower.com >Reply-To: ljenab at sunflower.com >To: Jot Powers >CC: Dragaera List >Subject: re: "Zelany's" _Lord Demon_ >Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 15:19:48 -0600 > >>Jot Powers wrote: >> >> > Re Zelazny, has anyone read _Lord Demon_, about Kai Wren, Godslayer? > > Amazon readers seem to think it wasn't a successful reconstruction of a > > fragment. I wonder if GS was a reference to SKZB - some of the plot >seems > > to allude to _To Reign in Hell_. > >I actually just read it. Picked it up used, recognized that it was likely >less Zelany than the other author. I enjoyed it. It had clear Zelany >elements, but was obviously filled in by someone who was not, but that >made it a bit more accessible. In my mind, Zelany can sometimes be >a challenging read. > >Of course, my all time favorite Zelany is _Lord of Light_, so I may >not be the best person to ask. > >-Jot > >> > >I haven't had much luck with books co-authored by Zelazny. They lack the >snap of his solo work. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but on average I >think the joint works are considerably longer and more . . . diffuse. > >LJ _________________________________________________________________ Our best dial-up offer is back. Get MSN Dial-up Internet Service for 6 months @ $9.95/month now! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup From bio_phy at hotmail.com Fri Dec 12 13:58:20 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 15:58:20 -0600 Subject: "Zelany's" _Lord Demon_ Message-ID: I liked most of Zelazny's stuff, including one of my personal favorites, _Doorways in the Sand_ and _This Immortal_. I realize that he is likely best known for his short stories (which were excellent) and the Amber series, but I was a lifelong fan, regardless. johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ "A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man." - Jedediah Springfield >From: Jot Powers >Reply-To: Jot Powers >To: Dragaera List >Subject: "Zelany's" _Lord Demon_ >Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:08:40 -0700 > > > Re Zelazny, has anyone read _Lord Demon_, about Kai Wren, Godslayer? > > Amazon readers seem to think it wasn't a successful reconstruction of a > > fragment. I wonder if GS was a reference to SKZB - some of the plot >seems > > to allude to _To Reign in Hell_. > >I actually just read it. Picked it up used, recognized that it was likely >less Zelany than the other author. I enjoyed it. It had clear Zelany >elements, but was obviously filled in by someone who was not, but that >made it a bit more accessible. In my mind, Zelany can sometimes be >a challenging read. > >Of course, my all time favorite Zelany is _Lord of Light_, so I may >not be the best person to ask. > >-Jot >-- >Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ >"I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" > -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan _________________________________________________________________ Browse styles for all ages, from the latest looks to cozy weekend wear at MSN Shopping. And check out the beauty products! http://shopping.msn.com From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Dec 12 14:22:34 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 16:22:34 -0600 Subject: Question on "Pressing" In-Reply-To: References: <20031212180845.GB1387@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <20031212222234.GB1230@infodancer.org> On Fri, Dec 12, 2003 at 12:36:25PM -0800, David Silberstein wrote: > On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, Matthew Hunter wrote: > >On Fri, Dec 12, 2003 at 08:37:40AM -0800, David Silberstein > > wrote: > >> And watching some of the many and varied styles, both with weapons and > >> unarmed, my impression is that the Chinese martial arts have a > >> tendency towards being much more swirly and flashy, with a lot more > >> motions that might be meant to distract the opponent (such as the > >> drunken style). > >> The Japanese styles, from what I could see, are usually more > >> direct and choppy, in contrast. > >That's a little odd; the Japanese came up with Aikido, > >Aiki-Jutsu, and probably more styles in the "extremely circular" > >category. Perhaps the selection of Japanese martial arts simply > >didn't include those as examples? > They did not, actually. > But I have seen Aikido, and I thought of it as a counterexample as I > typed that above. > > Perhaps I am not using the correct phrasing, though. Maybe I mean > that Chinese style is more elaborate and ornate, and Japanese is more > austere and simplified? I dunno. It was just a vague impression, > anyhow. That would fit the general pattern of Japanese/Chinese cultural interaction. The Japanese tend to "borrow" and "improve" the interesting stuff originally developed in China. They did this with their alphabet, IIRC, and some other cultural elements, including martial arts. Aikido is not an example of this pattern; it is too modern. -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From matthew at infodancer.org Fri Dec 12 14:24:00 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 16:24:00 -0600 Subject: Question on "Pressing" In-Reply-To: <20031212173705.GA12685@bofh.com> References: <20031212160257.GA12224@bofh.com> <20031212173705.GA12685@bofh.com> Message-ID: <20031212222400.GC1230@infodancer.org> On Fri, Dec 12, 2003 at 10:37:05AM -0700, Jot Powers wrote: > > The Chinese styles are, I think, more visually interesting (which > > might be why there a lot more movies about Chinese fighting styles). > It is obvious that any movie on martial arts isn't going to be how it > is really practiced. 3 moves, fight over, just doesn't make for > interesting cinema. :) I have a counterexample; its name is worth points: "It's like a video game. You have defeated the first wave." -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From Hereward at rogers.com Fri Dec 12 14:55:12 2003 From: Hereward at rogers.com (Gary Russell) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 17:55:12 -0500 Subject: Zelazny's books References: Message-ID: <003e01c3c103$00ecfde0$6401a8c0@bloor.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> I nearly think it is likely that this list is highly represented with Zelazny fans, including Steve. I think Lord of Light is an excellent choice for a favourite Zelazny book whether one has read all of Roger's books or a few. Mine is usually This Immortal, but there are many days when the choice is harder. Cheers, Gary (was at the Roger and Steve Ad Astra 18[?] years ago and have pics still) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Johne Cook" To: Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 4:58 PM Subject: RE: "Zelany's" _Lord Demon_ > I liked most of Zelazny's stuff, including one of my personal favorites, > _Doorways in the Sand_ and _This Immortal_. I realize that he is likely > best known for his short stories (which were excellent) and the Amber > series, but I was a lifelong fan, regardless. > > johne (phy) cook > wisconsin, usa > > aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ > > "A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man." > - Jedediah Springfield > > > > > > >From: Jot Powers > >Reply-To: Jot Powers > >To: Dragaera List > >Subject: "Zelany's" _Lord Demon_ > >Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:08:40 -0700 > > > > > Re Zelazny, has anyone read _Lord Demon_, about Kai Wren, Godslayer? > > > Amazon readers seem to think it wasn't a successful reconstruction of a > > > fragment. I wonder if GS was a reference to SKZB - some of the plot > >seems > > > to allude to _To Reign in Hell_. > > > >I actually just read it. Picked it up used, recognized that it was likely > >less Zelany than the other author. I enjoyed it. It had clear Zelany > >elements, but was obviously filled in by someone who was not, but that > >made it a bit more accessible. In my mind, Zelany can sometimes be > >a challenging read. > > > >Of course, my all time favorite Zelany is _Lord of Light_, so I may > >not be the best person to ask. > > > >-Jot > >-- > >Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ > >"I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" > > -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan > > _________________________________________________________________ > Browse styles for all ages, from the latest looks to cozy weekend wear at > MSN Shopping. And check out the beauty products! http://shopping.msn.com > From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Dec 12 15:26:49 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 15:26:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Zelazny's books In-Reply-To: <003e01c3c103$00ecfde0$6401a8c0@bloor.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> References: <003e01c3c103$00ecfde0$6401a8c0@bloor.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, Gary Russell wrote: > I nearly think it is likely that this list is highly represented with > Zelazny fans, including Steve. > I think Lord of Light is an excellent choice for a favourite Zelazny book > whether one has read all of Roger's books or a few. > Mine is usually This Immortal, but there are many days when the choice is > harder. Except for pretty good prose, _TI_ does zilch for me - anyone care to enlighten me? FWIW, _Creatures of Light and Darkness_ is high on my list. From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Dec 12 18:57:35 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 18:57:35 -0800 Subject: Zelazny's books References: <003e01c3c103$00ecfde0$6401a8c0@bloor.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <007c01c3c124$dce25630$fe00000a@steve> > Except for pretty good prose, _TI_ does zilch for me - anyone care to > enlighten me? FWIW, _Creatures of Light and Darkness_ is high on my list. > Not sure I can enlighten you, but, for me, when Conrad says, "Feathers or lead?" made my heart drop and set off my Cool Moment Detectors like nothing else in literature with the possible exception of M de Beaufort's escape >from Vincennes. From bonham15 at cox.net Fri Dec 12 19:01:10 2003 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 21:01:10 -0600 Subject: Zelazny's books References: <003e01c3c103$00ecfde0$6401a8c0@bloor.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> <007c01c3c124$dce25630$fe00000a@steve> Message-ID: <000401c3c125$5caba790$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> andrew vachss, chandler and james elroy set off my cool moments detector often... very few things in books top the chandler line 'she had a body that would make a bishop kick in a stained glass window' (or something extremely close) andy > > > > Except for pretty good prose, _TI_ does zilch for me - anyone care to > > enlighten me? FWIW, _Creatures of Light and Darkness_ is high on my list. > > > > Not sure I can enlighten you, but, for me, when Conrad says, "Feathers or > lead?" made my heart drop and set off my Cool Moment Detectors like nothing > else in literature with the possible exception of M de Beaufort's escape > from Vincennes. > From davids at kithrup.com Fri Dec 12 19:14:23 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 19:14:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Zelazny's books In-Reply-To: <000401c3c125$5caba790$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, bonham15 wrote: > >often... very few things in books top the chandler line 'she had a body that >would make a bishop kick in a stained glass window' (or something extremely >close) > QUOTATION: It was a blonde. A blonde to make a bishop kick a hole in a stained-glass window. ATTRIBUTION: Raymond Chandler (1888-1959), U.S. author. Philip Marlowe, in Farewell, My Lovely, ch. 13 (1940). Referring to Helen Grayle. http://www.bartleby.com/66/60/11260.html From bonham15 at cox.net Fri Dec 12 19:22:53 2003 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 21:22:53 -0600 Subject: Zelazny's books References: Message-ID: <000401c3c128$650c8dc0$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> ty mr silberstein. i knew the quote wasn't quite correct and i was too lazy to grab a recitation, preferring instead butchery of language. after all i'm a barbarian heathen, as my baptist room mate never failed to point out in college. andy all sarcasm aside, ty for digging up the correct quote, and that quickly too. once again, you frighten me. > On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, bonham15 wrote: > > > > >often... very few things in books top the chandler line 'she had a body that > >would make a bishop kick in a stained glass window' (or something extremely > >close) > > > > QUOTATION: It was a blonde. A blonde to make a bishop kick a hole > in a stained-glass window. > > ATTRIBUTION: Raymond Chandler (1888-1959), U.S. author. Philip > Marlowe, in Farewell, My Lovely, ch. 13 (1940). > > Referring to Helen Grayle. > > > http://www.bartleby.com/66/60/11260.html > > From bio_phy at hotmail.com Fri Dec 12 19:24:12 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 21:24:12 -0600 Subject: Zelazny's books Message-ID: Zelazny had a way with dialogue that few since have matched, turning what would have been a minor work into major entertainment (for me): "So feathers or lead?" I asked him. "Pardon?" "It is the riddle of the kallikanzaros. Pick one." "Feathers?" "You're wrong." "If I had said 'lead'...?" "Uh-uh. You only have one chance. The correct answer is whatever the kallikanzaros wants it to be. You lose." "That sounds a bit arbitrary." johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ "A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man." - Jedediah Springfield >From: "Steven Brust" >Not sure I can enlighten you, but, for me, when Conrad says, "Feathers or >lead?" made my heart drop and set off my Cool Moment Detectors like nothing >else in literature with the possible exception of M de Beaufort's escape >from Vincennes. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of slow downloads and busy signals? Get a high-speed Internet connection! Comparison-shop your local high-speed providers here. https://broadband.msn.com From bonham15 at cox.net Fri Dec 12 19:27:43 2003 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 21:27:43 -0600 Subject: Zelazny's books References: Message-ID: <000901c3c129$126a4480$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> that reminds me strongly of the chinese fable of writing poetry for the foxes...... andy > Zelazny had a way with dialogue that few since have matched, turning what > would have been a minor work into major entertainment (for me): > > "So feathers or lead?" I asked him. > "Pardon?" > "It is the riddle of the kallikanzaros. Pick one." > "Feathers?" > "You're wrong." > "If I had said 'lead'...?" > "Uh-uh. You only have one chance. The correct answer is whatever the > kallikanzaros wants it to be. You lose." > "That sounds a bit arbitrary." > > > johne (phy) cook > wisconsin, usa > > aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ > > "A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man." > - Jedediah Springfield > > >From: "Steven Brust" > >Not sure I can enlighten you, but, for me, when Conrad says, "Feathers or > >lead?" made my heart drop and set off my Cool Moment Detectors like nothing > >else in literature with the possible exception of M de Beaufort's escape > >from Vincennes. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of slow downloads and busy signals? Get a high-speed Internet > connection! Comparison-shop your local high-speed providers here. > https://broadband.msn.com > From frank at exit.com Fri Dec 12 19:28:53 2003 From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 19:28:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Zelazny's books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200312130328.hBD3SrKO099724@realtime.exit.com> Johne Cook wrote: > Zelazny had a way with dialogue that few since have matched, turning what > would have been a minor work into major entertainment (for me): "Just one damned thing after another." Oh, yeah, and "Kentukki Fried Lizzard Parts." (Although I don't remember the exact spelling and am too lazy to walk over and look it up. :-) Two that have stuck in my mind since the very first reading, some godawful number of years ago. Siigh, Roger, how we miss ye. -- Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com http://www.exit.com/ Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/ http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/ From warbi at warbi.net Fri Dec 12 22:26:32 2003 From: warbi at warbi.net (warbi) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 22:26:32 -0800 Subject: Quotes Message-ID: <003501c3c142$0dd87e00$3dadfea9@WarrenEBiggs> Okay, here is mine and while not Zelazny, it is sci-fi. It's from Clifford D Simak's City. "These are the stories that the Dogs tell when the fires burn high and the wind is from the north. Then each family circle gathers at the hearthstone and the pups sit silently and listen and when the story's done they ask many questions. "'What is Man?' they'll ask. "Or perhaps: 'What is a city?' "Or: 'What is war?'" Warbi From skzb at dreamcafe.com Fri Dec 12 22:13:10 2003 From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steven Brust) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 22:13:10 -0800 Subject: Zelazny's books References: Message-ID: <001001c3c140$2f16b1b0$fe00000a@steve> > Zelazny had a way with dialogue that few since have matched, turning what > would have been a minor work into major entertainment (for me): > > "So feathers or lead?" I asked him. > "Pardon?" > "It is the riddle of the kallikanzaros. Pick one." > "Feathers?" > "You're wrong." > "If I had said 'lead'...?" > "Uh-uh. You only have one chance. The correct answer is whatever the > kallikanzaros wants it to be. You lose." > "That sounds a bit arbitrary." > Yes, that's the set-up. But it's the pay-off that really nailed me. From pulmon at comcast.net Sat Dec 13 07:29:16 2003 From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 10:29:16 -0500 Subject: "Zelany's" _Lord Demon_ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1CF37B26-2D81-11D8-B329-0003938F1608@comcast.net> couldn't agree more. My copy of "creatures of light and darkness" wore out--couldn't find a new one. I am on my third "lord of light". I have a hard copy of "to die in italbar". I love Francis Sandow (platonically). Ken On Dec 12, 2003, at 4:58 PM, Johne Cook wrote: > I liked most of Zelazny's stuff, including one of my personal > favorites, _Doorways in the Sand_ and _This Immortal_. I realize that > he is likely best known for his short stories (which were excellent) > and the Amber series, but I was a lifelong fan, regardless. > > johne (phy) cook > wisconsin, usa > > aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ > > "A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man." > - Jedediah Springfield > > > > > >> From: Jot Powers >> Reply-To: Jot Powers >> To: Dragaera List >> Subject: "Zelany's" _Lord Demon_ >> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:08:40 -0700 >> >> > Re Zelazny, has anyone read _Lord Demon_, about Kai Wren, Godslayer? >> > Amazon readers seem to think it wasn't a successful reconstruction >> of a >> > fragment. I wonder if GS was a reference to SKZB - some of the >> plot seems >> > to allude to _To Reign in Hell_. >> >> I actually just read it. Picked it up used, recognized that it was >> likely >> less Zelany than the other author. I enjoyed it. It had clear Zelany >> elements, but was obviously filled in by someone who was not, but that >> made it a bit more accessible. In my mind, Zelany can sometimes be >> a challenging read. >> >> Of course, my all time favorite Zelany is _Lord of Light_, so I may >> not be the best person to ask. >> >> -Jot >> -- >> Jot Powers http://www.bofh.com/books/ >> "I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" >> -Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan > > _________________________________________________________________ > Browse styles for all ages, from the latest looks to cozy weekend wear > at MSN Shopping. And check out the beauty products! > http://shopping.msn.com > From bio_phy at hotmail.com Sat Dec 13 13:16:13 2003 From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 15:16:13 -0600 Subject: "Zelany's" _Lord Demon_ Message-ID: Ah, yes, Francis Sandow. Our favorite upwardly-mobile uber-rich guy. You have to admit, it was a reasonably Cool Moment when he tried to leave his planet, and the collective outpouring of love is almost overpowers his getaway. I liked him in _Isle of the Dead_. I'd forgotten he was in _To Die In Italbar_... johne (phy) cook wisconsin, usa aerie blog: http://aeriepress.blogspot.com/ "A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man." - Jedediah Springfield >From: Kenneth Gorelick >To: "Johne Cook" >CC: dragaera at dragaera.info >Subject: Re: "Zelany's" _Lord Demon_ >Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 10:29:16 -0500 > >couldn't agree more. My copy of "creatures of light and darkness" wore >out--couldn't find a new one. I am on my third "lord of light". I have a >hard copy of "to die in italbar". I love Francis Sandow (platonically). > >Ken _________________________________________________________________ Take advantage of our best MSN Dial-up offer of the year ? six months @$9.95/month. Sign up now! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup From davids at kithrup.com Sun Dec 14 02:20:43 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 02:20:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Paarfi, Vlad, TPG & the OED Message-ID: One of the things that might be an inconsistency in the tales of Dragaera is that Vlad (and Cawti) appear to be familiar with Paarfi's works, despite the fact that /The Phoenix Guards/ seems to have been published 80 or 90 years after Vlad's current time. I belive I have found a reasonable explanation. A few weeks ago, I watched a cable show on CSPAN called "BookTV", which, as it turns out, is archived on the web: http://www.booktv.org/history/index.asp?schedid=228&segid=4079 This particular reading was by Simon Winchester on the history of the Oxford English Dictionary. I highly recommend watching it if you have Realplayer. Mr. Winchester is a very amusing speaker, full of snarky asides and humorous lexographic anecdotes, e.g. (apropos Aubrey & Maturin), one of the quotes is as follows: RETREAT is the order in which a French fleet retires before an enemy. As it is not properly a term of the British Marine, any fuller account would be entirely out of place. -- A Dictionary of Marine Terms, Faulkener (sp?), 18th Cent At any rate, one of the points that Mr. Winchester made is that the OED was not published all in one go, but rather in parts called "fascicles" (which the OED itself defines as: 2. A part, number, 'livraison' (of a work published by instalments)[1]) (as also confirmed here: http://dictionary.oed.com/about/history.html ) So for example, Volume A-Ant was published on Jan. 1 1884, but the entire work was not completed until 4 decades later. I think it not unreasonable that /The Phoenix Guards/ was being released in fascicles, and these are what Cawti and Vlad had read. After all, academics need to eat, and given the leisurely pace at which this work is being researched and written, I think it very nearly necessary to publish the parts as they become available, only to be published in combined book form when the work is finally finished. [1] And might I note that it is vaguely worrisome when the venerable OED has a misspelling... From yaga at berkano.pair.com Sun Dec 14 03:25:29 2003 From: yaga at berkano.pair.com (yaga at berkano.pair.com) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 06:25:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Paarfi, Vlad, TPG & the OED In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031214112529.30926.qmail@berkano.pair.com> > One of the things that might be an inconsistency in the tales of > Dragaera is that Vlad (and Cawti) appear to be familiar with > Paarfi's works, despite the fact that /The Phoenix Guards/ seems > to have been published 80 or 90 years after Vlad's current time. Comments on this theory aside (which appears reasonable), I can confirm that Vlad and Kiera both are familiar with TPG: "...Just let me drink a cup of this poison." "Poison? I thought you liked klava." "She's out of honey," [Vlad] said, practically snarling. "Be back in a minute," I said. By the time the klama was done, I was back with a crock of honey, and Vlad said, "You must be sure to permit me to be cut into pieces for you sometime." "Been reading Paarfi again?" _ORCA_, pg 142 (Ace Fantasy paperback ed) I suppose, however, that Paarfi may have used this idiom in an unknown work available in the middle of the third century of Zerika's reign, later re-using it in TPG, a theory independent (though not quite to elegant) as the one mentioned above. Peter / Yaga From willm at emailme.com.au Sun Dec 14 03:37:01 2003 From: willm at emailme.com.au (Will Marshall) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 22:37:01 +1100 Subject: Paarfi, Vlad, TPG & the OED References: Message-ID: <002401c3c236$9772c6d0$a77f1ecb@willville> Wouldn't it also be possible that Paarfi has written other works by Vlad's time, but not the Phoenix Guards and others we are familiar with? ( Perhaps a simpler but not as interesting explanation ;-) ) - Will ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Silberstein" To: "Dragaera List" Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 9:20 PM Subject: Paarfi, Vlad, TPG & the OED > One of the things that might be an inconsistency in the tales of > Dragaera is that Vlad (and Cawti) appear to be familiar with > Paarfi's works, despite the fact that /The Phoenix Guards/ seems > to have been published 80 or 90 years after Vlad's current time. > I belive I have found a reasonable explanation. > > A few weeks ago, I watched a cable show on CSPAN called "BookTV", > which, as it turns out, is archived on the web: > > http://www.booktv.org/history/index.asp?schedid=228&segid=4079 > > This particular reading was by Simon Winchester on the history of > the Oxford English Dictionary. I highly recommend watching it if > you have Realplayer. Mr. Winchester is a very amusing speaker, > full of snarky asides and humorous lexographic anecdotes, e.g. > (apropos Aubrey & Maturin), one of the quotes is as follows: > > RETREAT is the order in which a French fleet retires > before an enemy. As it is not properly a term of the > British Marine, any fuller account would be entirely > out of place. > -- A Dictionary of Marine Terms, Faulkener (sp?), 18th Cent > > At any rate, one of the points that Mr. Winchester made is > that the OED was not published all in one go, but rather in > parts called "fascicles" (which the OED itself defines as: > 2. A part, number, 'livraison' (of a work published by > instalments)[1]) > > (as also confirmed here: > http://dictionary.oed.com/about/history.html > ) > > So for example, Volume A-Ant was published on Jan. 1 1884, > but the entire work was not completed until 4 decades later. > > I think it not unreasonable that /The Phoenix Guards/ was > being released in fascicles, and these are what Cawti and > Vlad had read. After all, academics need to eat, and given > the leisurely pace at which this work is being researched > and written, I think it very nearly necessary to publish > the parts as they become available, only to be published > in combined book form when the work is finally finished. > > > [1] And might I note that it is vaguely worrisome when the > venerable OED has a misspelling... > From davids at kithrup.com Sun Dec 14 11:33:44 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 11:33:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Paarfi, Vlad, TPG & the OED In-Reply-To: <002401c3c236$9772c6d0$a77f1ecb@willville> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 yaga at berkano.pair.com wrote: > >I suppose, however, that Paarfi may have used this idiom in an >unknown work available in the middle of the third century of Zerika's >reign, later re-using it in TPG, a theory independent (though not >quite to elegant) as the one mentioned above. > On Sun, 14 Dec 2003, Will Marshall wrote: >Wouldn't it also be possible that Paarfi has written other works by >Vlad's time, but not the Phoenix Guards and others we are familiar >with? ( Perhaps a simpler but not as interesting explanation ;-) ) > The above suggestions are possible, but my notion that Vlad has read at least part of /The Phoenix Guards/ is based on the fact that while the preface to FHYA does mention Paarfi's earlier work, /Three Broken Strings/ (apparantly an account of the life of the minstrel Beed'n), as well as his historical monographs, it also appears to state that Paarfi first used that style of dialogue which is so peculiarly and singularly verbose and roundabout (and by the way, I find myself wondering if perhaps Paarfi is in fact the "anonymous author" of /Redwreath and Goldstar have Travelled to Deathsgate/) in /The Phoenix Guards/. Vlad's "You must be sure to permit me to be cut into pieces for you sometime" sounds like a paraphrase of the line "Yes, my lady, and I shall only be happier than I am now on the day when you shall command me to be cut to pieces in your service", which I note does occur in /The Phoenix Guards/. Of course, a similar phrase might occur in /Three Broken Strings/; we shall likely never know. But it sounds more like the style of /The Phoenix Guards/. If Vlad has any extended interaction with Khaavren at all in /Tiassa/, I should think that the might well be tempted to comment on what he had read in Paarfi, if he did in fact read parts of /The Phoenix Guards/. Of course, Khaavren would no doubt simply glare at him in response and say something along the lines of "I don't want to talk about it". From lister at insaneninjahero.com Sun Dec 14 13:17:07 2003 From: lister at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 13:17:07 -0800 Subject: Paarfi, Vlad, TPG & the OED In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FDCD353.20702@insaneninjahero.com> David Silberstein wrote: > > Of course, Khaavren would no doubt simply glare at him in response and > say something along the lines of "I don't want to talk about it". > Or, perhaps, "Die, lowly Easterner." I never got the impression that Khaavren had much patience for people who joked familiarly with him, with whom he was not familiar. Kisc From mam at theworld.com Sun Dec 14 18:44:12 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 21:44:12 -0500 Subject: Zelazny's Collaborations In-Reply-To: <002d01c3c104$de480e40$3dadfea9@WarrenEBiggs> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, warbi wrote: # The only Zelazny collaboration that I ever read was The Black #Throne. Of course I like Saberhagen too and it didn't hurt that it #was basically a homage to Poe. In general I don't enjoy #collaborations as much as authors by themselves. Warbi Read _A Night in the Lonesome October_. Of course, you might not consider that a collaboration: the co-creator was Gahan Wilson, who drew a full-page illustration for each of the 31 chapters. -- Mark A. Mandel From mam at theworld.com Sun Dec 14 18:51:46 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 21:51:46 -0500 Subject: Paarfi, Vlad, TPG & the OED In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Dec 2003, David Silberstein wrote: #full of snarky asides and humorous lexographic anecdotes, e.g. #2. A part, number, 'livraison' (of a work published by #instalments)[1]) #[1] And might I note that it is vaguely worrisome when the #venerable OED has a misspelling... Ah, yes, the snarky aside. This one is in error. instalment(2) ... b. fig. A part of something produced or supplied in advance of the remainder; one of several parts supplied or produced at different times. [from OED Online] The spelling with a single "l" is standard British orthography. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From davids at kithrup.com Sun Dec 14 19:43:23 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:43:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Paarfi, Vlad, TPG & the OED In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Dec 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: >On Sun, 14 Dec 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > >#full of snarky asides and humorous lexographic anecdotes, e.g. > >#2. A part, number, 'livraison' (of a work published by >#instalments)[1]) > >#[1] And might I note that it is vaguely worrisome when the >#venerable OED has a misspelling... > >Ah, yes, the snarky aside. This one is in error. > >instalment(2) > ... > b. fig. A part of something produced or supplied in advance of the >remainder; one of several parts supplied or produced at different times. > >[from OED Online] > >The spelling with a single "l" is standard British orthography. > Well, damn. Upon my honour, swop my favourite encyclopaedia for a disc of coloured aluminium if I have not manoeuvred my lorry's tyres onto the kerb. You are entirely correct. Memo to self: Never play Scrabble with a trained philologist. Nor get into spelling contests, for that matter. From warbi at warbi.net Sun Dec 14 22:45:36 2003 From: warbi at warbi.net (warbi) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 22:45:36 -0800 Subject: A Night in Lonesome October Message-ID: <002f01c3c2d7$0cdd6920$3dadfea9@WarrenEBiggs> Thanks, Mark, that sounds cool. I've always enjoyed Gahan Wilson's very, very twisted cartoons. Warbi From melalvai at kemenel.org Tue Dec 16 14:39:58 2003 From: melalvai at kemenel.org (Rachel Ruhlen) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 16:39:58 -0600 Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) In-Reply-To: <1068695466.2018.4.camel@loiosh> References: <20031112200404.10975.qmail@web41905.mail.yahoo.com> <20031112200404.10975.qmail@web41905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20031216163920.00bc8cd8@tigger.uic.edu> At 10:51 PM 11/12/2003 -0500, Jag wrote: >Not quite pet names, but I do have a habit of naming my computers after >names from the books. I've had various computers at home named teckla, >vallista, dragon, tsalmoth, and jhereg. At one of my old jobs, I had >norathar, morrolan, and aliera. I also had an old work laptop named >devera, then replaced it with a personal laptop named loiosh. I'm >actually getting a laptop with my new job next month and haven't quite >figured out what name to give it yet. Any suggestions? My laptop is Pel. So pick something different or I'll be jealous. Rachel From agrajag at dragaera.net Wed Dec 17 06:06:52 2003 From: agrajag at dragaera.net (Jag) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 09:06:52 -0500 Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20031216163920.00bc8cd8@tigger.uic.edu> References: <20031112200404.10975.qmail@web41905.mail.yahoo.com> <20031112200404.10975.qmail@web41905.mail.yahoo.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20031216163920.00bc8cd8@tigger.uic.edu> Message-ID: <1071670012.4281.0.camel@pel> On Tue, 2003-12-16 at 17:39, Rachel Ruhlen wrote: > At 10:51 PM 11/12/2003 -0500, Jag wrote: > >Not quite pet names, but I do have a habit of naming my computers after > >names from the books. I've had various computers at home named teckla, > >vallista, dragon, tsalmoth, and jhereg. At one of my old jobs, I had > >norathar, morrolan, and aliera. I also had an old work laptop named > >devera, then replaced it with a personal laptop named loiosh. I'm > >actually getting a laptop with my new job next month and haven't quite > >figured out what name to give it yet. Any suggestions? > > My laptop is Pel. So pick something different or I'll be jealous. > Rachel You're a little late in responding. I got my new laptop early last week and promptly named it pel. Sorry. From mam at theworld.com Wed Dec 17 09:53:59 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 12:53:59 -0500 Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20031216163920.00bc8cd8@tigger.uic.edu> Message-ID: #At 10:51 PM 11/12/2003 -0500, Jag wrote: #>Not quite pet names, but I do have a habit of naming my computers after #>names from the books. I've had various computers at home named teckla, #>vallista, dragon, tsalmoth, and jhereg. At one of my old jobs, I had #>norathar, morrolan, and aliera. I also had an old work laptop named #>devera, then replaced it with a personal laptop named loiosh. I'm #>actually getting a laptop with my new job next month and haven't quite #>figured out what name to give it yet. Any suggestions? Rocza is the obvious one. -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From davids at kithrup.com Tue Dec 16 22:18:47 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 22:18:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20031216163920.00bc8cd8@tigger.uic.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Dec 2003, Rachel Ruhlen wrote: >At 10:51 PM 11/12/2003 -0500, Jag wrote: >> I'm actually getting a laptop with my new job next month and >>haven't quite figured out what name to give it yet. Any >>suggestions? >My laptop is Pel. So pick something different or I'll be jealous. He might call it "Galstan". But regardless, he can call it whatever he wants. All he has to do is not let you know about it. Which seems appropriate, somehow. From davids at kithrup.com Tue Dec 16 22:18:47 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 22:18:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20031216163920.00bc8cd8@tigger.uic.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Dec 2003, Rachel Ruhlen wrote: >At 10:51 PM 11/12/2003 -0500, Jag wrote: >> I'm actually getting a laptop with my new job next month and >>haven't quite figured out what name to give it yet. Any >>suggestions? >My laptop is Pel. So pick something different or I'll be jealous. He might call it "Galstan". But regardless, he can call it whatever he wants. All he has to do is not let you know about it. Which seems appropriate, somehow. From jtrager at keyway.net Wed Dec 17 12:51:53 2003 From: jtrager at keyway.net (Trager) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 12:51:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pets (was Re: Vlad, training and the paths of the dead (Issola spoiler)) Message-ID: <200312172051.hBHKpr4U009914@shrek.keyway.net> Right, it's all about being Discreet. > On Tue, 16 Dec 2003, Rachel Ruhlen wrote: > > >At 10:51 PM 11/12/2003 -0500, Jag wrote: > > >> I'm actually getting a laptop with my new job next month and > >>haven't quite figured out what name to give it yet. Any > >>suggestions? > > >My laptop is Pel. So pick something different or I'll be jealous. > > He might call it "Galstan". > > But regardless, he can call it whatever he wants. All he has to do is > not let you know about it. Which seems appropriate, somehow. > > From dgf at dd-b.net Wed Dec 17 15:17:02 2003 From: dgf at dd-b.net (dgf at dd-b.net) Date: 17 Dec 2003 23:17:02 -0000 Subject: Dragaera subscriber list Message-ID: <20031217231702.8908.qmail@dd-b.net> acwest-dragaera (at) craigwest.net (email) "A. Craig West" adia (at) noc.uoa.gr (email) Alexandros Diamantidis adina (at) panix.com (email) agrajag (at) dragaera.net (email) Jag aheyman (at) rcn.com (email) "Adam Heyman" AkodoBob (at) sbcglobal.net (email) akomins (at) midway.uchicago.edu (email) Arin Komins alexx (at) panix.com (email) "Alexander Kay" amadandedallas (at) yahoo.com (email) James D'Amadan ambyrglow (at) softhome.net (email) ambyrglow (at) softhome.net amitskaw (at) hotmail.com (email) "James Somebody" angelheart32 (at) bresnan.net (email) "Angelheart" annoying_dude (at) yahoo.com (digest) Matt Smit anreed (at) wm.edu (email) anreed (at) wm.edu antijubilant (at) hotmail.com (email) "_" attjen (at) gwu.edu (digest) Matt Jennings azarule (at) hotmail.com (email) "David Gunderson" a_englehart (at) cox.net (email) "Anne Englehart" badgod (at) sonic.net (digest) ballistica (at) cox.net (email) "Donna" bearnw (at) ix.netcom.com (digest) bertowud (at) cox.net (email) "Robert Wood" bio_phy (at) hotmail.com (email) bjf (at) wavefront.com (email) Beth Friedman bonham15 (at) cox.net (email) "bonham15" books (at) bofh.com (email) books (at) bofh.com bowdoins (at) yahoo.com (email) Bowdoin Su bph7 (at) cornell.edu (email) Ben Hiles brian.vanskyock (at) zimmer.com (email) "Brian Vanskyock" briandmichelle (at) yahoo.com (email) Brian and Michelle Baskett BTray74314 (at) aol.com (email) BTray74314 (at) aol.com calianng_graves (at) yahoo.com (email) Caliann the Elf carl (at) odeon.net (email) "Carl Chada" carla.hunt.b (at) oncogene.com (email) "Carla Hunt" casca913 (at) gbronline.com (email) "Charlie Smith" casey (at) the-bat.net (email) catman12 (at) bigpond.com (email) catman chaosasj (at) bellsouth.net (email) "Andrew Jones" charles_sumner (at) harvard.edu (email) charles_sumner (at) harvard.edu chris.mclaren (at) ieee.org (email) "Chris McLaren" Chrisf.Olson (at) sun.com (email) Chris Olson - SunPS chrislee (at) neo.rr.com (email) "chris cunningham" christian.ericsson (at) publicistbyran.se (email) Christian Ericsson Christopher_M_Kane (at) brown.edu (email) cjc_60525 (at) earthlink.net (email) Christopher Carroll cnorehad (at) oz.net (email) "Chris Norehad" corsair (at) concentric.net (email) "Kelly Rhodes" corsairx (at) iinet.net.au (email) Andrew corwin (at) mpls.cx (email) (Corwin Brust) cosmicdolphin (at) comcast.net (email) "Rich" crowkart (at) hotmail.com (email) "A Crow" curtis.humes (at) verizon.net (email) "Gnosis" dacileva (at) hotmail.com (email) "Nik Landauer" daemian_spayde (at) sbcglobal.net (email) Katt Jean dalvenjah (at) dal.net (email) Dalvenjah FoxFire dan-tain_ishanti (at) attbi.com (email) "Brad Crawford" dar (at) horusinc.com (email) "David Rodemaker" davids (at) kithrup.com (email) David Silberstein dd-b (at) dd-b.net (digest) (David Dyer-Bennet) dd-b (at) dd-b.net (email) (David Dyer-Bennet) den (at) monger.net (email) dgf (at) dd-b.net (post) dharms (at) surfree.com (email) Dan R. 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Nonymous" yukio_toko (at) yahoo.com (email) yukiotoko imp-thing zaphod (at) charter.net (email) "Greg Schwartz" zarkon (at) illrepute.org (email) John Klein From ruhlenr at tigger.uic.edu Thu Dec 18 18:41:40 2003 From: ruhlenr at tigger.uic.edu (Rachel L. Ruhlen) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 20:41:40 -0600 Subject: Now *here's* a thought In-Reply-To: <20031208041913.GA13043@ofb.net> References: <20031208041913.GA13043@ofb.net> Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.0.20031218204109.01aea838@tigger.uic.edu> At 10:19 PM 12/7/2003, Damien Sullivan wrote: >This does it. >If we ever do see him [Mario], now I want him to be fat (for a Dragaeran) >and gone to >seed. Middle-aged playboy resting on his laurels and assassination fee. That >or living in terror of being caught by the Empire. How about governor of California? Rachel From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Thu Dec 18 18:45:48 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 18:45:48 -0800 Subject: Now *here's* a thought In-Reply-To: <20031208041913.GA13043@ofb.net> References: <20031208041913.GA13043@ofb.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 20:19:13 -0800, you wrote: >On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 03:28:31AM +0000, Jon Carey wrote: >> >> So what if Mario, being the living embodiment of the inevitability of >> death, with Easterners and Dragaerans looking up to him as something almost > >Aaargh! >Goddamn Mario worship. > >This does it. >If we ever do see him, now I want him to be fat (for a Dragaeran) and gone to >seed. Middle-aged playboy resting on his laurels and assassination fee. That >or living in terror of being caught by the Empire. > So basically, Mario is the Elvis of the Jhereg? -- laz I am the Dread Pirate Roberts #23546. Ask me about franchise opportunities! From mr1 at rcosta.com Fri Dec 19 11:40:30 2003 From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 14:40:30 -0500 Subject: Now *here's* a thought In-Reply-To: References: <20031208041913.GA13043@ofb.net> Message-ID: <3FE30DDE.12022.136F4EA@localhost> On 18 Dec 2003 at 18:45, lazarus wrote > > So basically, Mario is the Elvis of the Jhereg? > > > -- > > laz > > I am the Dread Pirate Roberts #23546. > Ask me about franchise opportunities! Wow. He really must be a fantastic assassin if he can wear rhinestone encrusted outfits, do "work", and not get caught. M Michele Riccio mr1 at rcosta.com From lister at insaneninjahero.com Fri Dec 19 12:30:55 2003 From: lister at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 12:30:55 -0800 Subject: Now *here's* a thought In-Reply-To: <3FE30DDE.12022.136F4EA@localhost> References: <20031208041913.GA13043@ofb.net> <3FE30DDE.12022.136F4EA@localhost> Message-ID: <3FE35FFF.8080909@insaneninjahero.com> Michele Riccio wrote: > On 18 Dec 2003 at 18:45, lazarus wrote > >>So basically, Mario is the Elvis of the Jhereg? >> >> >>-- >> >>laz >> >>I am the Dread Pirate Roberts #23546. >>Ask me about franchise opportunities! > > > Wow. He really must be a fantastic assassin if he can wear > rhinestone encrusted outfits, do "work", and not get caught. > I dunno. I remember Vinnie Antonelli (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100212/) once said that the best way to disappear or so was OVERtipping, because everyone writes you off as some generous rich guy. I wonder if that could be translated to wearing rhinestone encrusted outfits and disappear because everyone will write you off as some kind of nut ;) I gotta go watch that movie again. Kisc From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Mon Dec 22 20:04:45 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 20:04:45 -0800 Subject: News from Amazon Message-ID: <8kffuvc694igf9psfioq25n0loktiub8f6@4ax.com> This is interesting, note the date.... To: lazarus33pjf at cox.net Subject: New from Amazon.com From: "Amazon.com" Date: 22 Dec 2003 17:01:58 -0800 Dear Amazon.com Customer, We thought you might like to know that "The Lord of Castle Black (Viscount of Adrilankha, Book 2)" is now available for ordering. Order your copy at a savings of 30% by following the link below. The Lord of Castle Black (Viscount of Adrilankha, Book 2) Steven Brust (Author) List Price : $27.95 Price : $19.57 You Save : $8.38 (30%) To learn more about The Lord of Castle Black (Viscount of Adrilankha, Book 2), please visit the following page at Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/0312855826/ref=pe_snp_826 More to explore... The Paths of the Dead (The Viscount of Adrilankha, Book 1) http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/0812534174/ref=pe_snp_826 Sethra Lavode http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/0312855818/ref=pe_snp_826 Paladin of Souls: A Novel http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/0380979020/ref=pe_snp_826 Sincerely, Amazon.com -- laz I am the Dread Pirate Roberts #23546. Ask me about franchise opportunities! From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Dec 22 20:49:17 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 20:49:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: "empire" In-Reply-To: <8kffuvc694igf9psfioq25n0loktiub8f6@4ax.com> References: <8kffuvc694igf9psfioq25n0loktiub8f6@4ax.com> Message-ID: >From J.M. Roberts's _Twentieth Century_: "It is the essence of empire that it rules over many peoples..." He points out that Queen Victoria assumed the title of Empress in reference to India. The Dragaeran Empire includes a few islands but nothing comparable to a distant, larger, more populous country. Anyway, to me the Empire seems more like a big Kingdom under this definition, given the ethnic cleansing of the Serioli and perhaps the cat-centaurs. From davids at kithrup.com Mon Dec 22 21:06:43 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 21:06:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: "empire" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Dec 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >]From J.M. Roberts's _Twentieth Century_: > >]"It is the essence of empire that it rules over many peoples..." >He points out that Queen Victoria assumed the title of Empress in >reference to India. The Dragaeran Empire includes a few islands but >nothing comparable to a distant, larger, more populous country. >Anyway, to me the Empire seems more like a big Kingdom under this >definition, given the ethnic cleansing of the Serioli and perhaps >the cat-centaurs. > That does seem to be the usual standard of applying the term, as I think of it. The only counterexample I can think of is the Chinese Empire, which might have aquired the term simply due to sheer size - so perhaps for the same reason, the Dragaeran Empire. But I may be mistaken about China. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Mon Dec 22 21:23:47 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 21:23:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: "empire" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Dec 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > On Mon, 22 Dec 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > >]From J.M. Roberts's _Twentieth Century_: > > > >]"It is the essence of empire that it rules over many peoples..." > > >He points out that Queen Victoria assumed the title of Empress in > >reference to India. The Dragaeran Empire includes a few islands but > >nothing comparable to a distant, larger, more populous country. > > >Anyway, to me the Empire seems more like a big Kingdom under this > >definition, given the ethnic cleansing of the Serioli and perhaps > >the cat-centaurs. > > > > That does seem to be the usual standard of applying the term, as I > think of it. The only counterexample I can think of is the Chinese > Empire, which might have aquired the term simply due to sheer size - > so perhaps for the same reason, the Dragaeran Empire. > > But I may be mistaken about China. As I understand the Chinese Empire (quite vaguely) additional peoples included the Tibetans, the Mongolians, some Arab populations in the west, and a variety of coastal peoples under varying degrees of control. I guess in the last sense the Dragaeran Empire owns the East, insofar as it can invade and stomp whenever things at home are stable and there's a Sethra the Younger needing to make a name for herself (if that's true.) From azarule at hotmail.com Mon Dec 22 21:23:49 2003 From: azarule at hotmail.com (David Gunderson) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 05:23:49 +0000 Subject: "empire" Message-ID: How about if in times immemorial the different houses/peoples were conquered into an empire by one species of Dragaeran ? I don't *think* anything's been said to contradict that yet. --------------------------------------------------------------------- |If we shadows have offended, think but this, and all is mended: you | |have but slumbered here while these visions did appear. And this | |weak and idle theme, no more yielding but a dream. Gentles, do not | |reprehend. If you pardon, we will mend. | --------------------------------------------------------------------- >From: David Silberstein >To: Dragaera List >Subject: Re: "empire" >Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 21:06:43 -0800 (PST) > >On Mon, 22 Dec 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > >]From J.M. Roberts's _Twentieth Century_: > > > >]"It is the essence of empire that it rules over many peoples..." > > >He points out that Queen Victoria assumed the title of Empress in > >reference to India. The Dragaeran Empire includes a few islands but > >nothing comparable to a distant, larger, more populous country. > > >Anyway, to me the Empire seems more like a big Kingdom under this > >definition, given the ethnic cleansing of the Serioli and perhaps > >the cat-centaurs. > > > >That does seem to be the usual standard of applying the term, as I >think of it. The only counterexample I can think of is the Chinese >Empire, which might have aquired the term simply due to sheer size - >so perhaps for the same reason, the Dragaeran Empire. > >But I may be mistaken about China. > > _________________________________________________________________ Worried about inbox overload? Get MSN Extra Storage now! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es From davids at kithrup.com Mon Dec 22 23:11:41 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 23:11:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: "empire" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Dec 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >On Mon, 22 Dec 2003, David Silberstein wrote: > >> On Mon, 22 Dec 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >> >> >]From J.M. Roberts's _Twentieth Century_: >> > >> >]"It is the essence of empire that it rules over many peoples..." Another thought: Empire is not just rule over "many peoples", but over "many *conquered* peoples". They do call the founder "Kieron the Conqueror". >> >Anyway, to me the Empire seems more like a big Kingdom under this >> >definition, given the ethnic cleansing of the Serioli and perhaps >> >the cat-centaurs. I am not sure if the Serioli were "ethnically cleansed". But they were definitely conquered. From rone at ennui.org Mon Dec 22 23:27:30 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 23:27:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Zelazny's Collaborations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031223072731.02DB826C38@boredom.ennui.org> Mark A Mandel writes: On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, warbi wrote: # The only Zelazny collaboration that I ever read was The Black #Throne. Of course I like Saberhagen too and it didn't hurt that it #was basically a homage to Poe. In general I don't enjoy #collaborations as much as authors by themselves. Warbi Read _A Night in the Lonesome October_. Of course, you might not consider that a collaboration: the co-creator was Gahan Wilson, who drew a full-page illustration for each of the 31 chapters. Well, would you consider _The Phantom Tollbooth_ a collaboration between Norton Juster and Jules Feiffer? Hmm.... well, i think i see your point. I consider the book wedded to those images, same as _Alice in Wonderland_ and the Tenniel illustrations. Now i'm trying to think of other books like these. rone -- Light stupidity decays into heavy stupidity. This violates energy conservation, but that's stupidity for you. - Rich Holmes From akodobob at sbcglobal.net Tue Dec 23 00:44:45 2003 From: akodobob at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 00:44:45 -0800 Subject: "empire" References: Message-ID: <001501c3c931$0b466890$6501a8c0@DELL1> > >> >]From J.M. Roberts's _Twentieth Century_: > >> >]"It is the essence of empire that it rules over many peoples..." > Another thought: > Empire is not just rule over "many peoples", but over "many *conquered* > peoples". They do call the founder "Kieron the Conqueror". > As I recall from Jhereg, and probally several other books, Kieron the Conqueror gathered an army (I think of 16 different Houses, and also of the Jhereg which were the outcasts, thieves and spies) and took control of what is now the empire. Note also that Draegerens use House distinction as we use racial and ethnic traits, and I've always gotten the sense that each House sees themselves as seperate peoples from each other. Notice the taboos of crossbreeding and the cultivation and affirmation of House traits and dress styles. Also note how nearly impossible it is to join most of the houses. Both of these factors seem support a sense of identity with their house as strong as the sense of identity seperate peoples would have. Akodo Bob -who dreads the replies of people who actually do have Jhereg on hand to correct him. From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Dec 23 09:11:43 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 11:11:43 -0600 Subject: News from Amazon In-Reply-To: <8kffuvc694igf9psfioq25n0loktiub8f6@4ax.com> (lazarus33pjf@cox.net's message of "Mon, 22 Dec 2003 20:04:45 -0800") References: <8kffuvc694igf9psfioq25n0loktiub8f6@4ax.com> Message-ID: lazarus writes: > This is interesting, note the date.... I'm not sure if you're commenting on their rather late announcement of TLoCB, or the fact that they show a publication date for Sethra Lavode of April 2004. The second isn't a surprise; it's also listed in the "upcoming events" section of dragaera.info as being an April book. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Dec 23 09:12:41 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 11:12:41 -0600 Subject: Zelazny's Collaborations In-Reply-To: <20031223072731.02DB826C38@boredom.ennui.org> (rone@ennui.org's message of "Mon, 22 Dec 2003 23:27:30 -0800 (PST)") References: <20031223072731.02DB826C38@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: rone at ennui.org (rone) writes: > Well, would you consider _The Phantom Tollbooth_ a collaboration > between Norton Juster and Jules Feiffer? I wouldn't. The only image I particularly remember is the cover. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From davids at kithrup.com Tue Dec 23 14:08:52 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:08:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pronunciation Message-ID: After going through the various sound files, I was pleased to hear the proper way to pronounce Dragaeran names and words, and also a somewhat chagrined - I've been pronouncing quite a few words wrong in my head! Anyway, my thanks to DDB & SKZB, and is there any chance of getting another batch of words done? I particularly want to hear Steve say "Hwdf'rjaanci", or however it's spelled. From warbi at warbi.net Tue Dec 23 16:21:21 2003 From: warbi at warbi.net (warbi) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:21:21 -0800 Subject: Pronunciation Message-ID: <003801c3c9b3$dd5e9c80$3dadfea9@WarrenEBiggs> "I particularly want to hear Steve say "Hwdf'rjaanci", or however it's spelled." I think that it's supposed to sound like a sneeze. I guess that you would have to ask Sethra. Warbi From yaga at berkano.pair.com Tue Dec 23 15:31:27 2003 From: yaga at berkano.pair.com (yaga at berkano.pair.com) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 18:31:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: Pronunciation In-Reply-To: <003801c3c9b3$dd5e9c80$3dadfea9@WarrenEBiggs> Message-ID: <20031223233127.82912.qmail@berkano.pair.com> [ Charset ISO-8859-1 unsupported, converting... ] > "I particularly want to hear Steve say "Hwdf'rjaanci", or however it's spelled." > > I think that it's supposed to sound like a sneeze. I guess that you would have to ask Sethra. Warbi In a polyglot of Welsh and Hungarian, I was thinking "Who'd if ranky" with stresses on the first and third syllables. And it kinda sounds like a sneeze if you keep the "i" in "if" flat, and stress the first even more than the third syllable. My 2 cents, Peter / Yaga From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Tue Dec 23 17:20:19 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 17:20:19 -0800 Subject: News from Amazon In-Reply-To: References: <8kffuvc694igf9psfioq25n0loktiub8f6@4ax.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 11:11:43 -0600, you wrote: >lazarus writes: > >> This is interesting, note the date.... > >I'm not sure if you're commenting on their rather late announcement of >TLoCB, or the fact that they show a publication date for Sethra Lavode >of April 2004. > >The second isn't a surprise; it's also listed in the "upcoming events" >section of dragaera.info as being an April book. Was commenting on the late announcement date of TLoCB. -- laz I am the Dread Pirate Roberts #23546. Ask me about franchise opportunities! From dd-b at dd-b.net Tue Dec 23 19:24:45 2003 From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 21:24:45 -0600 Subject: Pronunciation In-Reply-To: (David Silberstein's message of "Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:08:52 -0800 (PST)") References: Message-ID: David Silberstein writes: > After going through the various sound files, I was pleased to hear the > proper way to pronounce Dragaeran names and words, and also a somewhat > chagrined - I've been pronouncing quite a few words wrong in my head! > > Anyway, my thanks to DDB & SKZB, and is there any chance of getting > another batch of words done? I've certainly been meaning to ask for a second set (and some re-recordings). > I particularly want to hear Steve say "Hwdf'rjaanci", or however it's > spelled. Me too. -- David Dyer-Bennet, , RKBA: Photos: Snapshots: Dragaera/Steven Brust: From sirchuck at macomb.com Tue Dec 23 20:04:55 2003 From: sirchuck at macomb.com (John Mietus) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 22:04:55 -0600 Subject: Zelazny's books In-Reply-To: <001001c3c140$2f16b1b0$fe00000a@steve> Message-ID: Steven Brust said: > >> Zelazny had a way with dialogue that few since have matched, turning what >> would have been a minor work into major entertainment (for me): >> >> "So feathers or lead?" I asked him. >> "Pardon?" >> "It is the riddle of the kallikanzaros. Pick one." >> "Feathers?" >> "You're wrong." >> "If I had said 'lead'...?" >> "Uh-uh. You only have one chance. The correct answer is whatever the >> kallikanzaros wants it to be. You lose." >> "That sounds a bit arbitrary." >> > > Yes, that's the set-up. But it's the pay-off that really nailed me. Absolutely. As a result, we used to use the kallikanzaros in RPG gaming all the time. Inevitably, the answer was Whatever Got The Best Response From The GM. If it was something the kallikanzaros (or "Uncle Kal," as we grew to refer to it) had heard before, you were usually better off dead. If it was something that actually made it (or the GM) laugh or cause him to be genuinely taken aback, you could usually get The Important Clue To Finishing The Adventure or the Magical McGuffin That Everyone Wants or whatever. We've used that as a clich? for nigh on these past twenty-five years. Last time I ran into Uncle Kal, I got away with my life by saying Carpe Scrotum, John "I've got a plan so cunning you could stick a tail on it and call it a weasel." -- Edmund Blackadder From Randi128 at aol.com Wed Dec 24 07:07:15 2003 From: Randi128 at aol.com (Randi128 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 10:07:15 EST Subject: Pronunciation Message-ID: <104.3c57e398.2d1b05a3@aol.com> In a message dated 12/23/2003 5:30:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, warbi at warbi.net writes: > "I particularly want to hear Steve say "Hwdf'rjaanci", or however it's > spelled." > > I think that it's supposed to sound like a sneeze. I guess that you would > have to ask Sethra. Warbi I'd particularly want to hear him say 'All in' when I'm holding an inside straight and all he has is a pair of twos. But that's just me. John D. Barbato, OD From mneme at io.com Wed Dec 24 07:14:35 2003 From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 09:14:35 -0600 Subject: Zelazny's books In-Reply-To: References: <001001c3c140$2f16b1b0$fe00000a@steve> Message-ID: <16361.44379.650018.962253@fnord.io.com> John Mietus writes: >Steven Brust said: >>> "Uh-uh. You only have one chance. The correct answer is whatever the >>> kallikanzaros wants it to be. You lose." >>> "That sounds a bit arbitrary." >> Yes, that's the set-up. But it's the pay-off that really nailed me. >Absolutely. FWIW, I just finished "...and Call Me Conrad" yesterday as a direct result of this conversation. -Damn-, it's good; I can well understand why it split the Hugo with Dune. -- Joshua Kronengold (mneme at io.com) "I've been teaching |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) --^--him...to live, to breathe, to walk, to sample the /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\joy on each road, and the sorrow at each turning. |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ /-\\\I'm sorry if I kept him out too late"--Vlad Taltos '---''(_/--' (_/-' From mam at theworld.com Thu Dec 25 19:52:09 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 22:52:09 -0500 Subject: Pronunciation In-Reply-To: <20031223233127.82912.qmail@berkano.pair.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 yaga at berkano.pair.com wrote: #> "I particularly want to hear Steve say "Hwdf'rjaanci", or however #it's spelled." #> I think that it's supposed to sound like a sneeze. I guess that you #would have to ask Sethra. Warbi #In a polyglot of Welsh and Hungarian, I was thinking "Who'd if ranky" #with stresses on the first and third syllables. #And it kinda sounds like a sneeze if you keep the "i" in "if" flat, #and stress the first even more than the third syllable. I say it approx. as hwood FRYAAN tsee with the vowel of the first syllable very short, and FRYAAN as all one syllable; I'm using the "y" as a consonant, not a vowel, as in "nyooz" ("news" in some pronunciations). -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From rone at ennui.org Thu Dec 25 20:13:50 2003 From: rone at ennui.org (rone) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 20:13:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pronunciation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031226041350.2A66E26C35@boredom.ennui.org> Mark A Mandel writes: I say it approx. as hwood FRYAAN tsee with the vowel of the first syllable very short, and FRYAAN as all one syllable; I'm using the "y" as a consonant, not a vowel, as in "nyooz" ("news" in some pronunciations). That's pretty close to mine, yeah. rone -- Light stupidity decays into heavy stupidity. This violates energy conservation, but that's stupidity for you. - Rich Holmes From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Thu Dec 25 20:23:56 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 20:23:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pronunciation In-Reply-To: <20031226041350.2A66E26C35@boredom.ennui.org> References: <20031226041350.2A66E26C35@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 rone at ennui.org wrote: > Mark A Mandel writes: > I say it approx. as > hwood FRYAAN tsee > with the vowel of the first syllable very short, and FRYAAN as all one > syllable; I'm using the "y" as a consonant, not a vowel, as in "nyooz" > ("news" in some pronunciations). > > That's pretty close to mine, yeah. > If we're operating under the assumption that SKZB is translating texts, it's not clear to me that any sort of transliteration is possible. Do the Dragaerans even use the Latin alphabet? And what about the Welsh problem? On the other hand, we know from I guess _Teckla_ that documents from the original settlers are Easterner-readable (though maybe those had been translated many times...) From mam at theworld.com Thu Dec 25 20:32:02 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 23:32:02 -0500 Subject: Pronunciation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Dec 2003, Philip Hart wrote: #On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 rone at ennui.org wrote: # #> Mark A Mandel writes: #> I say it approx. as #> hwood FRYAAN tsee #> with the vowel of the first syllable very short, and FRYAAN as all one #> syllable; I'm using the "y" as a consonant, not a vowel, as in "nyooz" #> ("news" in some pronunciations). #> #> That's pretty close to mine, yeah. #> # # #If we're operating under the assumption that SKZB is translating texts, #it's not clear to me that any sort of transliteration is possible. Do the #Dragaerans even use the Latin alphabet? And what about the Welsh problem? No problem. He doesn't have to be transLITERating, just tranSCRIBing. Where do you get the conventions for writing down a name in a language that has no writing system of its own? Well, you might draw on... -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Fri Dec 26 10:00:59 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 10:00:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pronunciation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Dec 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > On Thu, 25 Dec 2003, Philip Hart wrote: > > #On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 rone at ennui.org wrote: > # > #> Mark A Mandel writes: > #> I say it approx. as > #> hwood FRYAAN tsee > #> with the vowel of the first syllable very short, and FRYAAN as all one > #> syllable; I'm using the "y" as a consonant, not a vowel, as in "nyooz" > #> ("news" in some pronunciations). > #> > #> That's pretty close to mine, yeah. > #> > # > # > #If we're operating under the assumption that SKZB is translating texts, > #it's not clear to me that any sort of transliteration is possible. Do the > #Dragaerans even use the Latin alphabet? And what about the Welsh problem? > > No problem. He doesn't have to be transLITERating, just tranSCRIBing. > Where do you get the conventions for writing down a name in a language > that has no writing system of its own? Well, you might draw on... Serioli. Or Jenoine, for that matter. Actually isn't sorcery done in part in Serioli symbols? I seem to recall something along those lines, perhaps involving Tazendra. Anyway, for all we know the Eastern settlers might have written in Chinese or Japanese characters, and anyway I assert that anything could have happened between the last literate pre-Dragaeran and Kieron - look what happened to Latin in just a few years of continuous literacy. From mam at theworld.com Sat Dec 27 13:17:09 2003 From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 16:17:09 -0500 Subject: transliteration Message-ID: (This bounced from the list a day or two ago. Let's have another go. -- MAM) On Fri, 26 Dec 2003, Philip Hart wrote: #> #If we're operating under the assumption that SKZB is translating texts, #> #it's not clear to me that any sort of transliteration is possible. Do the #> #Dragaerans even use the Latin alphabet? And what about the Welsh problem? #> #> No problem. He doesn't have to be transLITERating, just tranSCRIBing. #> Where do you get the conventions for writing down a name in a language #> that has no writing system of its own? Well, you might draw on... # #Serioli. Or Jenoine, for that matter. Actually isn't sorcery done in #part in Serioli symbols? I seem to recall something along those lines, #perhaps involving Tazendra. # #Anyway, for all we know the Eastern settlers might have written in Chinese #or Japanese characters, and anyway I assert that anything could have #happened between the last literate pre-Dragaeran and Kieron - look what #happened to Latin in just a few years of continuous literacy. It seems that Dragaeran "symbols" code syllables, morphemes, or entire words, like Chinese characters (either in Chinese writing or as used in Japanese writing, where they are called "kanji") -- rather than individual sounds, as letters of an alphabet do (although English is notoriously irregular in this regard). There's an exchange in LOCB, I don't remember where, on just this subject, w.r.t. the contrast between Eastern and Dragaeran writing. -- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel -- Mark A. Mandel http://cracksandshards.com a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website From davids at kithrup.com Sun Dec 28 15:35:50 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 15:35:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: transliteration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Dec 2003, Mark A Mandel wrote: > >It seems that Dragaeran "symbols" code syllables, morphemes, or entire >words, like Chinese characters (either in Chinese writing or as used in >Japanese writing, where they are called "kanji") -- rather than >individual sounds, as letters of an alphabet do (although English is >notoriously irregular in this regard). There's an exchange in LOCB, I >don't remember where, on just this subject, w.r.t. the contrast between >Eastern and Dragaeran writing. > I believe I know what you are referring to. There is a scene in the later part of the 2nd half of tLoCB where Morrolan states to Sethra that he wishes to learn more of sorcery. She in turn mentions that she has many books on the topic, and Morrolan explains that he cannot read the language they are currently speaking (Dragaeran), but that he can read Easterner (and possibly serveral Eastern languages). He specifically complains that in Dragaeran, the same characters can stand for very different sounds. It seems to me that he was using the same complaint that someone with experience with a more phonetic alphabetic orthography might make of English. Sethra then suggests that he take reading lessons from Tukko, who has skills in such instruction. Anyway, that's my recollection. From davids at kithrup.com Tue Dec 30 18:14:45 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 18:14:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vallista Message-ID: Anyone else have any interesting dreams about Dragaera? I dreamed that Morrolan's flying castle slipped through a time-warp to the 14th Vallista Reign. Sethra was able to identify the era by recognizing the architecture, as they passed over Dragaera City (I'm pretty sure that was it what it was). I seem to recall that they could not in fact teleport, perhaps due to the fact that the Orb had not yet been reconfigured. There were certain problems getting their sorcery to work right, but obviously, the castle did not fall down. They managed to get out somehow, and into the palace, but I don't quite recall how they did it. They might have levitated, or they might have eventually gotten teleportation to work somehow. They spoke to a woman very close to the Emperor - possibly a Prime Minister, or similar. She seemed to be one of a pair of such ministers - one of them was in charge of tearing things down, the other was in charge of building things up. One may have been insane, or perhaps they each considered the other insane. That's about all I can remember. Speaking of Vallista, I find myself wondering just how inventive they are. This ties in to the whole notion of technology on Dragaera possibly being limited by the intervention of the gods, or by demons, or by the Orb, or by the Jenoine or *something*. After 200,000 years, they've just barely invented bows & arrows? Are Vallista who are too creative (or are too creative in certain areas, such as military applications of chemistry or basic mechanics) just disappeared? From greyw01f at hotmail.com Tue Dec 30 19:36:46 2003 From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (Jon Carey) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 03:36:46 +0000 Subject: Vallista Message-ID: of course the obvious reply to this is that mario killed them all. that, or, perhaps in a society (even pre-orb-reconfiguration) where magic is so pervasive, technology isn't really necessary--why do all that exhaustiv research when one can just wave a hand? House Vallista's middle-class economic status may be in part due to some sort of deal with House Athyra--basically along the lines of, you spend your creativity along magical lines (how can magic accomplish x, for instance) and not develop alternative methods of doing it, and we will pay you handsomely for your efforts. And I imagine that alternative methods are quashed quite rapidly. I kinda see, when postulating along these lines, that House Athyra becomes rather like the oil companies of today...Hydrogen power? Solar Power? Electric Power? Garbage Power (that's a really cool successful experiment that has been hushed up--they used GARBAGE to run a car) These things are silly little things! Use Gas Power! And Oil! *mutters* Anyway... Jon PS and can we PLEASE modify the mailer so that emails originate from dragaera at dragaera.info instead of the individual? I hate mistaking the reply message as sending to the list, and then finding that I'll have to double the message in some person's inbox....again... _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/bcomm&pgmarket=en-ca&RU=http%3a%2f%2fjoin.msn.com%2f%3fpage%3dmisc%2fspecialoffers%26pgmarket%3den-ca From saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com Wed Dec 31 05:06:41 2003 From: saint_erythros at lameassbitch.com (M J) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 05:06:41 -0800 Subject: Vallista Message-ID: <200312310506.AA121307226@amish2000.com> From: David Silberstein Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 18:14:45 -0800 (PST) >Anyone else have any interesting dreams about Dragaera? Well, er, I once dreamed that I was at the Neverending Party at Castle Black and that I was trying to make Aliera a cup of tea. (She kept saying that of course _I_ wouldn't know how to make one correctly, but she drank it anyway. There is no pleasing that woman.) Oh. Wait. You said _interesting_ dreams. 'Fraid not. >I dreamed that Morrolan's flying castle slipped through >a time-warp to the 14th Vallista Reign. Tangent: are Dragaerans _allowed_ to time-travel? Wouldn't the gods put a pretty heavy stricture on that sort of thing? I can see a lot of people wanting to send a Jhereg back in time, pointed right straight at Adron pre-purple-stones. >They spoke to a woman very close to the Emperor - possibly >a Prime Minister, or similar. She seemed to be one of a >pair of such ministers - one of them was in charge of tearing >things down, the other was in charge of building things up. Ah, the Ministers of the Interior and the Decorating? The Ministers of the Raising Up and the Casting Down? Cain and Abel? >One may have been insane, or perhaps they each considered the >other insane. I wonder if all Vallista in one particular phase of the creation-destruction cycle tend to look askance at fellow Vallista who are out of phase with them? >That's about all I can remember. > >Speaking of Vallista, I find myself wondering just how inventive >they are. Well, they're probably just about Feanor-level, in theory. >After 200,000 years, they've just barely invented bows & arrows? didn't Steve say something about how, when it comes to warfare, they really do prefer the up-close-and-personal approach of sword, knife, and whacking-sticks? And then something further about how toxology is ill-suited to the jungle-like environs of the first tribes and armies, and the Dragaerans being too sot in their ways to figure out something new? (I might be making that up. But looking it up in the archive seems like a -lot- of work to be doing when it's this late at night.) >Are Vallista who are too creative (or are too creative in certain >areas, such as military applications of chemistry or basic mechanics) >just disappeared? I bet they make up the bulk of the small gods, them and the Athyra wizards who've passed on. ? MJ, halfway through "To Reign in Hell" for the first time, WOW. From lister at insaneninjahero.com Wed Dec 31 07:03:31 2003 From: lister at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 07:03:31 -0800 Subject: Vallista In-Reply-To: <200312310506.AA121307226@amish2000.com> References: <200312310506.AA121307226@amish2000.com> Message-ID: <3FF2E543.8040600@insaneninjahero.com> M J wrote: > From: David Silberstein > Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 18:14:45 -0800 (PST) > > >>Anyone else have any interesting dreams about Dragaera? > > > Well, er, I once dreamed that I was at the Neverending Party > at Castle Black and that I was trying to make Aliera a cup of > tea. (She kept saying that of course _I_ wouldn't know how to > make one correctly, but she drank it anyway. There is no > pleasing that woman.) > > Oh. Wait. You said _interesting_ dreams. 'Fraid not. > That reminds me of a joke. Stop me if you've heard this one. A string goes into a bar, but he's kicked out; "we don't serve your kind here". So he tied himself off and teased up his hair, and went back in. "Hey, aren't you that same string I just kicked out of here?" "No sir, I'm a frayed knot." Sorry. No, really, I feel awfully. I should have resisted. I should delete this passage right now. > >>I dreamed that Morrolan's flying castle slipped through >>a time-warp to the 14th Vallista Reign. > > > Tangent: are Dragaerans _allowed_ to time-travel? Wouldn't > the gods put a pretty heavy stricture on that sort of thing? > I can see a lot of people wanting to send a Jhereg back in > time, pointed right straight at Adron pre-purple-stones. > > **SPOILER FOR ZELAZNY'S NIGHT IN THE LONESOME OCTOBER** The fanged one showed up to the party as a closer. When questioned about his strange allegiance, his response was that some of us like things the way they are; the implication I got was that while the old gods might make things generally more evil and chaotic, Herr Dracul would be a smaller fish in such a pond. I don't doubt there would be a great many folks willing to bet that things wouldn't be so much better as different... and different is bad. Kisc From davids at kithrup.com Wed Dec 31 09:45:11 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 09:45:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vallista In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Dec 2003, Jon Carey wrote: >of course the obvious reply to this is that mario killed them all. Bah. > >that, or, perhaps in a society (even pre-orb-reconfiguration) where >magic is so pervasive, technology isn't really necessary--why do all >that exhaustiv research when one can just wave a hand? Because continuous sorcery is *hard*. It requires intensive effort to learn, and can be exhausting even for experts, and can cause brain damage if you try to keep using it beyond your limits. Those soldiers in Morrolan's army would have been better off with a simple mechanical solution, like ponchos or broad hats. >House Vallista's middle-class economic status may be in part due to >some sort of deal with House Athyra--basically along the lines of, >you spend your creativity along magical lines (how can magic >accomplish x, for instance) and not develop alternative methods of >doing it, and we will pay you handsomely for your efforts. And I >imagine that alternative methods are quashed quite rapidly. Why? There are problems where sorcery is the best answer; there are problems where engineering is the best solution. Building houses (or castles), for example, appears to be mostly an engineering problem. Sorcery might help with the building (although the cost for a good sorceror has to be weighed against the labor of various Teckla), but the house does have to be designed first. I doubt that Vlad's chair with wheels was designed or built by Athyra. And Athyra don't run the mines, or make swords, or plan the cities, and so on. From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Dec 31 10:03:00 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 10:03:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: this is us after Jhereg/Vallista/Tsalmoth is published In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/14782.htm From lazarus33pjf at cox.net Wed Dec 31 10:01:45 2003 From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 10:01:45 -0800 Subject: Vallista In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 09:45:11 -0800 (PST), you wrote: >Why? There are problems where sorcery is the best answer; there are >problems where engineering is the best solution. > >Building houses (or castles), for example, appears to be mostly an >engineering problem. Sorcery might help with the building (although >the cost for a good sorceror has to be weighed against the labor of >various Teckla), but the house does have to be designed first. And, really, can't we just view it as two different kinds of technology? In our modern world, there are applications where mechanical engineering are better suited than electrical or nuclear, right? Times where manpower works more efficiently and more economically than robotics. -- laz I am the Dread Pirate Roberts #23546. Ask me about franchise opportunities! From davids at kithrup.com Wed Dec 31 10:09:31 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 10:09:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vallista In-Reply-To: <200312310506.AA121307226@amish2000.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Dec 2003, M J wrote: > >From: David Silberstein >Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 18:14:45 -0800 (PST) > >>I dreamed that Morrolan's flying castle slipped through >>a time-warp to the 14th Vallista Reign. Oh, and I nearly forgot: It's hard to tell in dreams, but I think Daymar was there as well. There was no glomping that I can recall, but perhaps they were all distracted by being elsewhen. >Tangent: are Dragaerans _allowed_ to time-travel? Wouldn't >the gods put a pretty heavy stricture on that sort of thing? Well, Devera does it fairly often, but of course, she's a special case. I note that while she observed what was going on in /Brokedown Palace/, she made no attempt to interfere with the events, despite the drastic fate of her Grandmama. And when Morrolan and Vlad met Baritt in the Paths of the Dead, Baritt even told them (well, he told Morrolan; he was not on speaking terms with Vlad) not to warn his past self. So there may be a tacit "no interference" clause that Dragaerans just know about. > >>They spoke to a woman very close to the Emperor - possibly Oh, and I think it might have been an Empress rather than an Emperor. >>a Prime Minister, or similar. She seemed to be one of a >>pair of such ministers - one of them was in charge of tearing >>things down, the other was in charge of building things up. >Ah, the Ministers of the Interior and the Decorating? The >Ministers of the Raising Up and the Casting Down? Cain and >Abel? She who Shapes / She who Destroys? A Zelazny homage might be apropos. >>After 200,000 years, they've just barely invented bows & >arrows? > >didn't Steve say something about how, when it comes to >warfare, they really do prefer the up-close-and-personal >approach of sword, knife, and whacking-sticks? And then >something further about how toxology is ill-suited to the >jungle-like environs of the first tribes and armies, and the >Dragaerans being too sot in their ways to figure out something >new? Well, I seem to recall something along those lines, but that never made sense to me. Plenty of jungle-dwellers in our world use/used bows-and-arrows. And of course, Dragaerans eventually moved out >from the jungle. From matthew at infodancer.org Wed Dec 31 16:50:11 2003 From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 18:50:11 -0600 Subject: Vallista In-Reply-To: References: <200312310506.AA121307226@amish2000.com> Message-ID: <20040101005011.GA28957@infodancer.org> On Wed, Dec 31, 2003 at 10:09:31AM -0800, David Silberstein wrote: > I note that while she observed what was going on in /Brokedown > Palace/, she made no attempt to interfere with the events, despite the > drastic fate of her Grandmama. > > And when Morrolan and Vlad met Baritt in the Paths of the Dead, Baritt > even told them (well, he told Morrolan; he was not on speaking terms > with Vlad) not to warn his past self. > > So there may be a tacit "no interference" clause that Dragaerans just > know about. Actually, this brings up an interesting question. Do we know how long Vlad and Morrolan spent in the Paths retrieving Aliera? As an outside observer would consider it, anyway? -- Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/index.jsp From philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU Wed Dec 31 16:57:46 2003 From: philiph at SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Philip Hart) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 16:57:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: disturbing thought In-Reply-To: <20040101005011.GA28957@infodancer.org> References: <200312310506.AA121307226@amish2000.com> <20040101005011.GA28957@infodancer.org> Message-ID: It just occurred to me that if Dragaerans have access to experience of their past lives, presumably they have access to their time being forcibly evolved by the J, about as horrible an ordeal as a people could undergo. This would I imagine lead to strong feelings among the elite (at least) against the J. A side issue - I wonder if Tortaalik's soul is in the Paths or has been reincarnated. It would be interesting to query it about certain aspects of events leading up to the Disaster. From davids at kithrup.com Wed Dec 31 17:54:56 2003 From: davids at kithrup.com (David Silberstein) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 17:54:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: disturbing thought In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Dec 2003, Philip Hart wrote: >It just occurred to me that if Dragaerans have access to experience of >their past lives, presumably they have access to their time being >forcibly evolved by the J, about as horrible an ordeal as a people >could undergo. This would I imagine lead to strong feelings among the >elite (at least) against the J. Perhaps. We don't know how long this "recall past lives" thing has been going on, though. What if it's something only possible recently, with the advent of Orb 2.0? Although recalling past lives smack to me as being more of necromancy than sorcery. >A side issue - I wonder if Tortaalik's soul is in the Paths or has been >reincarnated. It would be interesting to query it about certain aspects >of events leading up to the Disaster. > [Mild spoiler for /The Lord of Castle Black/ ahead:] Before tLoCB came out, I speculated that perhaps Laszlo was a Dragaeran that Zerika fell in love with during the Interregnum, who had subsequently died and reincarnated during Vlad's era as an Easterner, based on Zerika's comment (in /Phoenix/) about Laszlo being her lover because that is where her lover's soul resides - a gnomic comment if there ever was one. As we have now seen, Laszlo was apparantly alive even back in the days of tLocB. [1] While he may have lived through to the current day, or gone through succesive incarnations as an Easterner, I now find myself wondering if Laszlo's soul is nevertheless the incarnation of a Dragaeran; perhaps, in fact, of someone else of the House of the Phoenix (not necessarily Tortaalik, but still). We don't know what happened to Allistar; while he was allegedly banished along with his sister, he is mysteriously absent from anything told about her. That's the only Phoenix we know of - besides Princess Loudin, of course - who might have not perished in the Disaster (although he presumably died at some point afterward). Besides, Tortaalik might well be Zerika's Grandpapa, which would not preclude the possibility, but nevertheless. [1] Of course, it may be that Paarfi is being Paarfi again. From bonham15 at cox.net Wed Dec 31 20:31:01 2003 From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 22:31:01 -0600 Subject: disturbing thought References: <200312310506.AA121307226@amish2000.com> <20040101005011.GA28957@infodancer.org> Message-ID: <000601c3d020$101f6650$6401a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> sethra said she had to do drastic things to save aliera's soul.. i think anyone's soul that encounters raw chaos is pretty much grist for the mill. the only *known* exceptions for this are people descended from kieron, adron himself (in some form), and aliera (oh and presumably mario, but its not *known*) andy > It just occurred to me that if Dragaerans have access to experience of > their past lives, presumably they have access to their time being > forcibly evolved by the J, about as horrible an ordeal as a people > could undergo. This would I imagine lead to strong feelings among the > elite (at least) against the J. > > A side issue - I wonder if Tortaalik's soul is in the Paths or has been > reincarnated. It would be interesting to query it about certain aspects > of events leading up to the Disaster. >