On Mon, 19 Jan 2004, Steve Simmons wrote: > On Mon, Jan 19, 2004 at 02:13:55PM -0800, Philip Hart wrote: > > > On Mon, 19 Jan 2004, Steven Brust wrote: > > > > I beg to submit that, if we make the scientific distinction between > > > "revolution" and "coup-de-tat" (the former being the bringing to power of a > > > new social class; the latter being a shuffling within the same social class) > > > then never in history has a revolution occurred before all other means were > > > attempted. > > > The Roman empire's army uprising in whatever-it-was-CE? Some of the more > > abrupt transitions in Hellenic Greece? > > I'd argue that *any* transfer of power in Rome which involved the army > was a coup de'etat. Ignoring the word 'class' for a moment (because the > Roman army and the Senate sure weren't in the same social class), it was > a coup when one faction of the oligopoly of power overthrew another > faction. It certianly wasn't a revolution, which implies much more of a > popular uprising. The Roman army, for all it's power, was rarely anything > other than a tiny fraction of the population of the Empire during the > period mentioned. It's been too long since I read Roman history, but I thought there were instances when the army marched from the east or wherever and installed some soldier (not always a willing one) on the throne. I don't really know what "class" means in this context, but say Sejanus was of the old class so the Praetorian control of power which I was thinking about citing doesn't work, hmm, the overthrow of the Republic isn't a counter- example, thinking out loud here, back to the first sentence. Certainly the social order wasn't overturned in those cases. If I remember my Thucydides accurately, there were plenty of cases of revolutions in city-states that just involved one faction (say the old aristocracy) inviting the city's enemies in to take out the ruling class (say the newly rich merchants), a favor that might eventually be returned by the survivors. I certainly don't know how to evaluate "all other means" though.