From scott at cjhunter.com  Thu Jul  1 08:39:30 2004
From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:39:30 -0700
Subject: thoughts on Morganti - feedback please
In-Reply-To: <20040701010419.81791.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <36bf01c45f81$997aac70$3101a8c0@Magnumnew>

> > I am inclined
> > to believe it is a Jenoine construct designed to study amorphia, as
> > Dragarea 
> > is the only place it is know to exist, according to Sethra. 
> Iceflame is
> > the 
> > avatar or focal point for that construct.
> 
> Well, I haven't noticed any hints for that either.  I'm 
> willing to wait and see.

I haven't read "Sethra Lavode" yet, so I'll have missed whatever hints are
in there. Issola hints that Dzur Mountain is a Jenoine construct. Vlad and
Teldra both notice that the world they are trapped on is "unnaturally
natural", giving the impression that it was built rather than formed on its
own. Each of them observes that it makes them feel "just like Dzur
Mountain". 

While the original purpose of Dzur Mountain is a mystery, we can at least
dismiss the theory of it being a Terran starship, I think.

> 
> > Hmm, a thought just occurred. Maybe the difference in 
> Morganti weapons 
> > is how long they hold the soul of those they consume? A weak one 
> > absorbs the
> > soul, and disperses it (or whatever they do with them), a 
> more powerful
> > one 
> > holds that soul in itself for a time, and a Great Weapon 
> bonds with a 
> > particular soul as part of its creation? The slow 
> destruction of a soul 
> > could account for the uncomfortable feeling Vlad 
> experiences in close 
> > proximity to  Morganti weapons.
> 

In the only example we have, Lady Teldra, the knife destroyed her soul
instantly. The "threads" that Vlad recovered during his communion with
Spellbreaker were the threads of her personality. Teldra herself is gone.
Vlad realized this once he realized what he was actually doing by grabbing
the threads and wrapping them around his wrist. Whatever personality
Godslayer has, it will be based on Lady Teldra's personality. Vlad might
even think of it as "Lady Teldra". However, whatever it is, it's a copy of
Lady Teldra. The essence that defined Teldra and that might have gone on to
reincarnate as another person is gone. 

Essentially, Godslayer is Max Headroom to Teldra's Edison Carter. 




From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com  Thu Jul  1 11:03:25 2004
From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin)
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 11:03:25 -0700
Subject: thoughts on Morganti - feedback please
Message-ID: <BAY22-F23kZOvEQmWYp0011d13a@hotmail.com>

Textev?

(after all, it Could be *magic*, and realy still be actually Teldra.)

James Griffin,

Still Another Vlad faN


>From: "Scott Schultz" <scott at cjhunter.com>
>To: <dragaera at dragaera.info>
>Subject: RE: thoughts on Morganti - feedback please
>Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 08:39:30 -0700
>
> > > I am inclined
> > > to believe it is a Jenoine construct designed to study amorphia, as
> > > Dragarea
> > > is the only place it is know to exist, according to Sethra.
> > Iceflame is
> > > the
> > > avatar or focal point for that construct.
> >
> > Well, I haven't noticed any hints for that either.  I'm
> > willing to wait and see.
>
>I haven't read "Sethra Lavode" yet, so I'll have missed whatever hints are
>in there. Issola hints that Dzur Mountain is a Jenoine construct. Vlad and
>Teldra both notice that the world they are trapped on is "unnaturally
>natural", giving the impression that it was built rather than formed on its
>own. Each of them observes that it makes them feel "just like Dzur
>Mountain".
>
>While the original purpose of Dzur Mountain is a mystery, we can at least
>dismiss the theory of it being a Terran starship, I think.
>
> >
> > > Hmm, a thought just occurred. Maybe the difference in
> > Morganti weapons
> > > is how long they hold the soul of those they consume? A weak one
> > > absorbs the
> > > soul, and disperses it (or whatever they do with them), a
> > more powerful
> > > one
> > > holds that soul in itself for a time, and a Great Weapon
> > bonds with a
> > > particular soul as part of its creation? The slow
> > destruction of a soul
> > > could account for the uncomfortable feeling Vlad
> > experiences in close
> > > proximity to  Morganti weapons.
> >
>
>In the only example we have, Lady Teldra, the knife destroyed her soul
>instantly. The "threads" that Vlad recovered during his communion with
>Spellbreaker were the threads of her personality. Teldra herself is gone.
>Vlad realized this once he realized what he was actually doing by grabbing
>the threads and wrapping them around his wrist. Whatever personality
>Godslayer has, it will be based on Lady Teldra's personality. Vlad might
>even think of it as "Lady Teldra". However, whatever it is, it's a copy of
>Lady Teldra. The essence that defined Teldra and that might have gone on to
>reincarnate as another person is gone.
>
>Essentially, Godslayer is Max Headroom to Teldra's Edison Carter.
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get fast, reliable Internet access with MSN 9 Dial-up ? now 3 months FREE! 
http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/



From lady_mage16 at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  2 12:32:17 2004
From: lady_mage16 at yahoo.com (Y Y)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:32:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Food and drink
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0406301635060.8610992-100000@shell01-g>
Message-ID: <20040702193217.87774.qmail@web61205.mail.yahoo.com>

I thought of it as something like a pig as well.




--- Mark A Mandel <mam at TheWorld.com> wrote:
> Catching up on some old mail, although hit or
> miss...
> 
> 
> On Wed, 7 Apr 2004, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote:
> 
> #A discussion of food and drink could easily become
> a discussion of the plants
> #and animals of Dragaera, which I would enjoy.
> #
> #For example, what kind of animal is a kethna?  I'd
> always imagined it
> #as some sort of bird, perhaps rather like a
> chicken, but in LoCB a
> #"suckling kethna" is served, suggesting that it is
> more likely to be a
> #mammal.  What parallels can we draw between
> Dragaeran fauna and our
> #own?
> 
> More specifically than that, I have always assumed
> that it was a pig or
> very much like one. I don't remember the citations
> but we do have
> "kethna bacon", and somewhere in Sethra Lavode there
> is the mention of
> an area that is renowned for, among other things,
> the stench of its
> kethna pens.
> 
> -- Mark A. Mandel
>    http://cracksandshards.com
>    a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website
> [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
> 
> 
> 


=====

~*Yihan*~
IM: BLackDRagoness16
Visit my website: http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/dragonempress/index.html




		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 


From lady_mage16 at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  2 12:32:17 2004
From: lady_mage16 at yahoo.com (Y Y)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:32:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Food and drink
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0406301635060.8610992-100000@shell01-g>
Message-ID: <20040702193217.87774.qmail@web61205.mail.yahoo.com>

I thought of it as something like a pig as well.




--- Mark A Mandel <mam at TheWorld.com> wrote:
> Catching up on some old mail, although hit or
> miss...
> 
> 
> On Wed, 7 Apr 2004, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote:
> 
> #A discussion of food and drink could easily become
> a discussion of the plants
> #and animals of Dragaera, which I would enjoy.
> #
> #For example, what kind of animal is a kethna?  I'd
> always imagined it
> #as some sort of bird, perhaps rather like a
> chicken, but in LoCB a
> #"suckling kethna" is served, suggesting that it is
> more likely to be a
> #mammal.  What parallels can we draw between
> Dragaeran fauna and our
> #own?
> 
> More specifically than that, I have always assumed
> that it was a pig or
> very much like one. I don't remember the citations
> but we do have
> "kethna bacon", and somewhere in Sethra Lavode there
> is the mention of
> an area that is renowned for, among other things,
> the stench of its
> kethna pens.
> 
> -- Mark A. Mandel
>    http://cracksandshards.com
>    a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website
> [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
> 
> 
> 


=====

~*Yihan*~
IM: BLackDRagoness16
Visit my website: http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/dragonempress/index.html




		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 


From lady_mage16 at yahoo.com  Fri Jul  2 12:32:17 2004
From: lady_mage16 at yahoo.com (Y Y)
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:32:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Food and drink
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0406301635060.8610992-100000@shell01-g>
Message-ID: <20040702193217.87774.qmail@web61205.mail.yahoo.com>

I thought of it as something like a pig as well.




--- Mark A Mandel <mam at TheWorld.com> wrote:
> Catching up on some old mail, although hit or
> miss...
> 
> 
> On Wed, 7 Apr 2004, Joy Jennifer Nicholson wrote:
> 
> #A discussion of food and drink could easily become
> a discussion of the plants
> #and animals of Dragaera, which I would enjoy.
> #
> #For example, what kind of animal is a kethna?  I'd
> always imagined it
> #as some sort of bird, perhaps rather like a
> chicken, but in LoCB a
> #"suckling kethna" is served, suggesting that it is
> more likely to be a
> #mammal.  What parallels can we draw between
> Dragaeran fauna and our
> #own?
> 
> More specifically than that, I have always assumed
> that it was a pig or
> very much like one. I don't remember the citations
> but we do have
> "kethna bacon", and somewhere in Sethra Lavode there
> is the mention of
> an area that is renowned for, among other things,
> the stench of its
> kethna pens.
> 
> -- Mark A. Mandel
>    http://cracksandshards.com
>    a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website
> [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
> 
> 
> 


=====

~*Yihan*~
IM: BLackDRagoness16
Visit my website: http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/dragonempress/index.html




		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 


From Gaertk at aol.com  Sun Jul  4 16:11:35 2004
From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 04 Jul 2004 19:11:35 -0400
Subject: Is it Safe?
Message-ID: <096F14FB.2FC74E00.00048EA6@aol.com>

First there's lots of duplicates, and now I'm not getting any 
messages.  Did the problem change, or are people just being
really cautious?


--KG



From jhereg69 at earthlink.net  Mon Jul  5 03:01:58 2004
From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez)
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 06:01:58 -0400
Subject: Is it Safe?
In-Reply-To: <096F14FB.2FC74E00.00048EA6@aol.com>
References: <096F14FB.2FC74E00.00048EA6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <40E92716.5010302@earthlink.net>

Gaertk at aol.com wrote:
> First there's lots of duplicates, and now I'm not getting any 
> messages.  Did the problem change, or are people just being
> really cautious?

I think people are being cautious, but they are also probably doing 
real-world social stuff; I've had 7 total messages (including dragaera 
list) over the past two days, and even over the past week I've had 
uncharacteristically few messages, which is rare for me. At least this 
quiet period has given me enough distractionless time to convert my 
website to PHP on my home webserver. Too bad it's not connected to the 
internet, but that'll be the next step, once I figure out dynamic dns 
and enough about Apache (and PHP) that I know I'm not exposing too many 
security holes.

Jose
-- 
Jose Marquez                       \  Cthulhu 2004
jhereg69 at earthlink.net              \  Why vote for
http://home.earthlink.net/~jhereg69  \  the lesser evil?



From bonham15 at cox.net  Mon Jul  5 09:05:40 2004
From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:05:40 -0500
Subject: Is it Safe?
References: <096F14FB.2FC74E00.00048EA6@aol.com> <40E92716.5010302@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <000401c462a9$ebdd7210$6901a8c0@user79dn2jmjai>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jose Marquez" <jhereg69 at earthlink.
> I think people are being cautious, but they are also probably doing
> real-world social stuff; I've had 7 total messages (including dragaera
> list) over the past two days, and even over the past week I've had
> uncharacteristically few messages, which is rare for me. At least this
> quiet period has given me enough distractionless time to convert my
> website to PHP on my home webserver. Too bad it's not connected to the
> internet, but that'll be the next step, once I figure out dynamic dns
> and enough about Apache (and PHP) that I know I'm not exposing too many
> security holes.
>
holler at us when you get it up and running jose. i don't know jack about
security holes, but i'd love to see the work of some folks on this web site.

andy



From casey at the-bat.net  Thu Jul  8 11:27:46 2004
From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 14:27:46 -0400
Subject: Steve's Weblog
Message-ID: <mailman.10.1157398190.7163.dragaera@dragaera.info>

Steve blogged:
>I think I write gooder now than I usta did.

Well, I hope so.  Imagine how you'd feel if after twenty years of
writing for a living you hadn't improved at all.

C.



From dar at horusinc.com  Thu Jul  8 13:15:05 2004
From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:15:05 -0500
Subject: Steve's Weblog
In-Reply-To: <BAY1-DAV6XANazafa6r000141d2@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1BifJE-00006r-00@turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net>

> > Steve blogged:
> > >I think I write gooder now than I usta did.
> >
> > Well, I hope so.  Imagine how you'd feel if after twenty years of
> > writing for a living you hadn't improved at all.
> >
> > C.
> >
> >
> Indeed. I found some of my old high school and collage papers while
> moving,
> and reread those. It was interesting to see the way my writing style has
> changed, as well as the way I drew my conclusions.

What is more interesting is to return to school after a ~12 year absence and
look at difference in style and usage.
 
It's been a very interesting trip over the last 3 years as I finished my
B.A.

What is rather frightening is my GRE scores, I don't consider myself that
great of a writer (aside from vocabulary) in a technical sense - and I'm
evidently quite wrong in that assessment.

David A. Rodemaker




From frank at exit.com  Thu Jul  8 12:48:32 2004
From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:48:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Steve's Weblog
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407081153390.23611@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <200407081948.i68JmW9N049833@realtime.exit.com>

Philip Hart wrote:
> On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Casey Rousseau wrote:

Echo, echo, echo.

Okay, now I'm going to kill you _both_. :-/

(And can someone _please_ fix this?  The relevant headers appear to be

> Received: from dd-b.net (IDENT:qmailr at gw.dd-b.net [63.224.10.74])
>         by tinker.exit.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i68JXODw083327
>         for <frank at exit.com>; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:33:25 -0700 (PDT)
>         (envelope-from dragaera-return-14257-frank=exit.com at dragaera.info)
> Received: (qmail 23591 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2004 19:33:00 -0000
> Received: from unknown (@10.0.0.205)
>   by 10.0.0.205 with QMQP; 8 Jul 2004 19:33:00 -0000

That 10.0.0.205 is awfully suspicious.

And of course everyone (including myself) will get to see this information
forty-seven times, plus or minus twenty.  Sigh.
-- 
Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com	http://www.exit.com/
Exit Consulting                 http://www.gpsclock.com/
                                http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/


From howard at brazee.net  Thu Jul  8 12:50:43 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 13:50:43 -0600
Subject: Steve's Weblog
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407081153390.23611@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>
References: <200407081830.i68IUELx024994@nospam4.slac.stanford.edu> <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407081153390.23611@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <opsat32tkrmng2fm@emerald.he.net>

On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:02:02 -0700 (PDT), Philip Hart  
<philiph at slac.stanford.edu> wrote:

> It's not clear to me that this expectation is generally justified. I
> suspect that in SF it's rarer to see monotonically improving writing than
> a sharp improvement followed by a slow decline.  In poetry certainly
> people often just run out of experience to draw on (at least until they
> hit late old age).  Why Silverberg or Zelazny (or LeGuin after say _The
> Dispossesed_; or Wolfe after the New Sun; or...) peaked early I can't  
> say.
> Maybe something about ambition and careers and life.

Poets often get most of their acclaim at a late age.  One poet got a Nobel  
for prose, then served in the legislature and finally wrote the poetry  
that he is best remembered for.

Zelazny is kind of a special case.   When he knew he was dying, he decided  
to write fast and furiously for money.   He decided his legacy was his  
family.


-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/


From Log0n5150 at hotmail.com  Thu Jul  8 11:46:59 2004
From: Log0n5150 at hotmail.com (jeff)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 11:46:59 -0700
Subject: Steve's Weblog
References: <MC3-F20RIhYTeG1Ctpn00027e6b@mc3-f20.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY1-DAV6XANazafa6r000141d2@hotmail.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Casey Rousseau" <casey at the-bat.net>
To: "Dragaera" <dragaera at dragaera.info>
Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 11:27 AM
Subject: Steve's Weblog


> Steve blogged:
> >I think I write gooder now than I usta did.
>
> Well, I hope so.  Imagine how you'd feel if after twenty years of
> writing for a living you hadn't improved at all.
>
> C.
>
>
Indeed. I found some of my old high school and collage papers while moving,
and reread those. It was interesting to see the way my writing style has
changed, as well as the way I drew my conclusions.

Jeff


From howard at brazee.net  Thu Jul  8 13:41:35 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 14:41:35 -0600
Subject: Steve's Weblog
In-Reply-To: <E1BifJE-00006r-00@turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net>
References: <E1BifJE-00006r-00@turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <opsat6flv3mng2fm@emerald.he.net>

On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:15:05 -0500, David Rodemaker <dar at horusinc.com>  
wrote:

> What is rather frightening is my GRE scores, I don't consider myself that
> great of a writer (aside from vocabulary) in a technical sense - and I'm
> evidently quite wrong in that assessment.

If I could only be half as competent as my GRE's indicate, I would have a  
lot easier time of things.   But taking tests isn't a saleable skill.

-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/


From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Thu Jul  8 12:02:02 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:02:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Steve's Weblog
In-Reply-To: <200407081830.i68IUELx024994@nospam4.slac.stanford.edu>
References: <200407081830.i68IUELx024994@nospam4.slac.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407081153390.23611@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>



On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Casey Rousseau wrote:

> Steve blogged:
> >I think I write gooder now than I usta did.
>
> Well, I hope so.  Imagine how you'd feel if after twenty years of
> writing for a living you hadn't improved at all.


It's not clear to me that this expectation is generally justified. I
suspect that in SF it's rarer to see monotonically improving writing than
a sharp improvement followed by a slow decline.  In poetry certainly
people often just run out of experience to draw on (at least until they
hit late old age).  Why Silverberg or Zelazny (or LeGuin after say _The
Dispossesed_; or Wolfe after the New Sun; or...) peaked early I can't say.
Maybe something about ambition and careers and life.


From dar at horusinc.com  Thu Jul  8 14:09:31 2004
From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 16:09:31 -0500
Subject: Steve's Weblog
In-Reply-To: <opsat6flv3mng2fm@emerald.he.net>
Message-ID: <E1Big9t-0000iw-00@turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net>

> > What is rather frightening is my GRE scores, I don't consider myself
> > that great of a writer (aside from vocabulary) in a technical sense
> > - and I'm evidently quite wrong in that assessment.
> 
> If I could only be half as competent as my GRE's indicate, I would have a
> lot easier time of things. But taking tests isn't a saleable skill.

<chuckle>

Hey, it got me into grad school for this fall - I'm happy.

David A. Rodemaker




From jtoth at megrez.org  Thu Jul  8 15:06:39 2004
From: jtoth at megrez.org (Jim Toth)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 18:06:39 -0400
Subject: Dupes again (was Re: Steve's Weblog)
In-Reply-To: <200407081948.i68JmW9N049833@realtime.exit.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407081153390.23611@flora03.slac.stanford.edu> <200407081948.i68JmW9N049833@realtime.exit.com>
Message-ID: <20040708220639.GA20545@castor.megrez.org>

On Thu, Jul 08, 2004 at 12:48:32PM -0700, Frank Mayhar (frank at exit.com) said:
> Echo, echo, echo.
> 
> Okay, now I'm going to kill you _both_. :-/

I'm glad I have procmail shuttling duplicates elsewhere--I wouldn't
even know about this (since I very rarely check my dupes folder) if
folks hadn't complained.

> (And can someone _please_ fix this?  The relevant headers appear to be
> 
> > Received: from dd-b.net (IDENT:qmailr at gw.dd-b.net [63.224.10.74])
> >         by tinker.exit.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i68JXODw083327
> >         for <frank at exit.com>; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:33:25 -0700 (PDT)
> >         (envelope-from dragaera-return-14257-frank=exit.com at dragaera.info)
> > Received: (qmail 23591 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2004 19:33:00 -0000
> > Received: from unknown (@10.0.0.205)
> >   by 10.0.0.205 with QMQP; 8 Jul 2004 19:33:00 -0000
> 
> That 10.0.0.205 is awfully suspicious.

A possibly relevent bit is that on the very last received email,
instead of something like:

> > Received: from unknown (@10.0.0.205)

it seems that we have:

> > Received: from unknown (dgf at 10.0.0.205)

Dunno if that makes a difference.  (Or if I'm even right.)

Now, I know that in sendmail, there is, or used to be, a particular
option about sending things to multiple users.  If it's on, it saves
time and so forth by delivering to them all at once.  The problem is
that if it runs into trouble on the 5th user, it'll try again
later--and the 1st through the 4th users will get another copy.  And
if it has trouble again at the same place, why then the 1st through
4th users will get still another copy.  (My work used to have this
problem, and folks would sometimes get hundreds of duplicates if there
was a stale lock file hanging around.)   dd-b.net looks to use qmail,
not sendmail, but it might be the same sort of thing.
 
> And of course everyone (including myself) will get to see this information
> forty-seven times, plus or minus twenty.  Sigh.

I don't seem to be getting quite that many; it's been in the low teens
at most for me.

-- 
Jim Toth
jtoth at megrez.org


From wks at worldpath.net  Thu Jul  8 16:52:06 2004
From: wks at worldpath.net (Bill Stewart)
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 19:52:06 -0400
Subject: Steve's Weblog-cut the %^%$^^ crap!
In-Reply-To: <opsat32tkrmng2fm@emerald.he.net>
References: <200407081830.i68IUELx024994@nospam4.slac.stanford.edu> <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407081153390.23611@flora03.slac.stanford.edu> <opsat32tkrmng2fm@emerald.he.net>
Message-ID: <40EDDE26.4040608@worldpath.net>

Howard Brazee said the following on 07/08/2004 03:50 PM:
> On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:02:02 -0700 (PDT), Philip Hart  
> <philiph at slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> 

I am NOT amused at the continuous display of sending multiple messages, 
and blaming some server somewhere.  Grow up.  Get a life.


Bill, unlurking in NH


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Thu Jul  8 17:20:38 2004
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 19:20:38 -0500
Subject: Steve's Weblog
In-Reply-To: <200407081948.i68JmW9N049833@realtime.exit.com> (Frank Mayhar's
 message of "Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:48:32 -0700 (PDT)")
References: <200407081948.i68JmW9N049833@realtime.exit.com>
Message-ID: <m2pt76xc89.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>

Frank Mayhar <frank at exit.com> writes:

> Philip Hart wrote:
>> On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Casey Rousseau wrote:
>
> Echo, echo, echo.
>
> Okay, now I'm going to kill you _both_. :-/
>
> (And can someone _please_ fix this?  The relevant headers appear to be
>
>> Received: from dd-b.net (IDENT:qmailr at gw.dd-b.net [63.224.10.74])
>>         by tinker.exit.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id i68JXODw083327
>>         for <frank at exit.com>; Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:33:25 -0700 (PDT)
>>         (envelope-from dragaera-return-14257-frank=exit.com at dragaera.info)
>> Received: (qmail 23591 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2004 19:33:00 -0000
>> Received: from unknown (@10.0.0.205)
>>   by 10.0.0.205 with QMQP; 8 Jul 2004 19:33:00 -0000
>
> That 10.0.0.205 is awfully suspicious.
>
> And of course everyone (including myself) will get to see this information
> forty-seven times, plus or minus twenty.  Sigh.

Not really, just an internal URL on the LAN here.  Of course the
internal transfer between machines uses the internal URL.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From davids at Kithrup.COM  Thu Jul  8 17:40:34 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 17:40:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Steve's Weblog-cut the %^%$^^ crap!
In-Reply-To: <40EDDE26.4040608@worldpath.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040708173557.3934A-100000@kithrup.com>

On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Bill Stewart wrote:

>Howard Brazee said the following on 07/08/2004 03:50 PM:
>> On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:02:02 -0700 (PDT), Philip Hart  
>> <philiph at slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> 
>
>I am NOT amused at the continuous display of sending multiple
>messages, and blaming some server somewhere.  Grow up.  Get a
>life. 
>

If you think it was deliberate, then you need to grow a brain.

No-one here is as immature or malicious as you seem to think they
are. The mail server has been known to get a bad case of the
hiccups every now and again.  Would that the listmaster knew why.



From lazarus33pjf at cox.net  Thu Jul  8 15:41:39 2004
From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus)
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 15:41:39 -0700
Subject: Steve's Weblog
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407081153390.23611@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>
References: <200407081830.i68IUELx024994@nospam4.slac.stanford.edu> <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407081153390.23611@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <99jre0ltq0pqsmkt1gn1amgp5rj5ttc8ud@4ax.com>

On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:02:02 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>
>
>On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Casey Rousseau wrote:
>
>> Steve blogged:
>> >I think I write gooder now than I usta did.
>>
>> Well, I hope so.  Imagine how you'd feel if after twenty years of
>> writing for a living you hadn't improved at all.
>
>
>It's not clear to me that this expectation is generally justified. I
>suspect that in SF it's rarer to see monotonically improving writing than
>a sharp improvement followed by a slow decline.  In poetry certainly
>people often just run out of experience to draw on (at least until they
>hit late old age).  Why Silverberg or Zelazny (or LeGuin after say _The
>Dispossesed_; or Wolfe after the New Sun; or...) peaked early I can't say.
>Maybe something about ambition and careers and life.

I don't know the specific writers well enough to judge them, but some
of the writers I /am/ familiar with that follow the same pattern may
also run into the Success Bug.  They get too big and successful to be
edited, basically, so their writing goes downhill.

Once you buy into your own hype, you run a serious risk of becoming a
parody of yourself.  (Most specifically, see Tom Clancy for an
example.)


From lister at insaneninjahero.com  Thu Jul  8 21:30:52 2004
From: lister at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert)
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 21:30:52 -0700
Subject: sommat OT (was Re: Steve's Weblog)
In-Reply-To: <99jre0ltq0pqsmkt1gn1amgp5rj5ttc8ud@4ax.com>
References: <200407081830.i68IUELx024994@nospam4.slac.stanford.edu> <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407081153390.23611@flora03.slac.stanford.edu> <99jre0ltq0pqsmkt1gn1amgp5rj5ttc8ud@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <40EE1F7C.7000003@insaneninjahero.com>

lazarus wrote:
> On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:02:02 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:
> 
> 
>>
>>On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Casey Rousseau wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Steve blogged:
>>>
>>>>I think I write gooder now than I usta did.
>>>
>>>Well, I hope so.  Imagine how you'd feel if after twenty years of
>>>writing for a living you hadn't improved at all.
>>
>>
>>It's not clear to me that this expectation is generally justified. I
>>suspect that in SF it's rarer to see monotonically improving writing than
>>a sharp improvement followed by a slow decline.  In poetry certainly
>>people often just run out of experience to draw on (at least until they
>>hit late old age).  Why Silverberg or Zelazny (or LeGuin after say _The
>>Dispossesed_; or Wolfe after the New Sun; or...) peaked early I can't say.
>>Maybe something about ambition and careers and life.
> 
> 
> I don't know the specific writers well enough to judge them, but some
> of the writers I /am/ familiar with that follow the same pattern may
> also run into the Success Bug.  They get too big and successful to be
> edited, basically, so their writing goes downhill.
> 
> Once you buy into your own hype, you run a serious risk of becoming a
> parody of yourself.  (Most specifically, see Tom Clancy for an
> example.)
> 
> 

Yeah, that sort of thing happens in a lot of fields, not just writing... 
particularly creative endeavors seem to be this way.

Van Halen is one of my favorite examples of this, though there are many 
that may be better. Eddie Van Halen was once considered (by some of us 
that didn't really know better) to be the greatest rock guitar player 
ever. Certainly he at least popularized many signifigant techniques for 
rock guitar, but the greatest ever was too much of an exaggeration. 
Still, he seems to have gotten to the point where noone will tell him 
"no, that's probably not a good idea".

Does anyone here besides me read David Drake? I ask this because I'm 
curious if there is a consensus on the pattern of the quality of his 
writing ... ever since he wrote Redliners and apparently purged some of 
what was still eating at him after 'Nam, I've been told by people who 
are not big fans that they like his writing more. So I'm curious about 
that, with regards to this discussion.

Derrill


From howard at brazee.net  Fri Jul  9 05:02:24 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 06:02:24 -0600
Subject: Steve's Weblog-cut the %^%$^^ crap!
In-Reply-To: <40EDDE26.4040608@worldpath.net>
Message-ID: <000e01c465ac$9940af30$b07ba8c0@Dad133>

Bill Stewart wrote:
> Howard Brazee said the following on 07/08/2004 03:50 PM:
>> On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 12:02:02 -0700 (PDT), Philip Hart
>> <philiph at slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> 
> 
> I am NOT amused at the continuous display of sending multiple
> messages, and blaming some server somewhere.  Grow up.  Get a life.
> 
> 
> Bill, unlurking in NH

Who are you talking to?



From casey at the-bat.net  Fri Jul  9 05:52:24 2004
From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:52:24 -0400
Subject: Steve's Weblog-cut the %^%$^^ crap!
In-Reply-To: <000e01c465ac$9940af30$b07ba8c0@Dad133>
Message-ID: <000601c465b3$967f4110$7702a8c0@KCRINSP8200>

Howard Brazee wrote:
> 
> Bill Stewart wrote:
[snip]
> > I am NOT amused at the continuous display of sending multiple 
> > messages, and blaming some server somewhere.  Grow up.  Get a life.
> > 
> > 
> > Bill, unlurking in NH
> 
> Who are you talking to?

I don't know.  I was going to give him the benefit of the doubt, judging
that he must be a newcomer to the list, but I checked and was suprosed to
find that he's been on the subscriber list since the December '02 listing.
Sad.

Casey



From carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com  Fri Jul  9 07:06:35 2004
From: carla.hunt.b at oncogene.com (Carla Hunt)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:06:35 -0400
Subject: Steve's Weblog
Message-ID: <OF9752D527.62742D91-ON85256ECC.004D25F6-85256ECC.004D8185@bayer.com>





>Frank Mayhar wrote:

>Echo, echo, echo.

>Okay, now I'm going to kill you _both_. :-/

i'm so jealous.  i've been wanting to do the echo thing since the duplicates
started and now you've beat me to it.  =)



From pgranzeau at cox.net  Fri Jul  9 07:41:01 2004
From: pgranzeau at cox.net (Peter H. Granzeau)
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 09:41:01 -0500
Subject: List business
Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20040709093922.02ecc010@pop.east.cox.net>

Is there an explanation of the multiple messages in the List?

-- 
Regards, Pete
pgranzeau at cox.net 



From jhereg69 at earthlink.net  Fri Jul  9 07:49:06 2004
From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez)
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 10:49:06 -0400
Subject: List business
In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040709093922.02ecc010@pop.east.cox.net>
References: <6.0.0.22.2.20040709093922.02ecc010@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <40EEB062.7030308@earthlink.net>

Peter H. Granzeau wrote:
> Is there an explanation of the multiple messages in the List?
> 

It seems to be intermittent.

Jose
-- 
Jose Marquez                       \  Cthulhu 2004
jhereg69 at earthlink.net              \  Why vote for
http://home.earthlink.net/~jhereg69  \  the lesser evil?



From casey at the-bat.net  Fri Jul  9 08:43:14 2004
From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:43:14 -0400
Subject: Pete's Question
In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040709093922.02ecc010@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <mailman.11.1157398190.7163.dragaera@dragaera.info>

Pete Granzeau asked:
> Is there an explanation of the multiple messages in the List?

When I asked DD-B a similar question he replied off list:
> So far I can tell it's a semi-random event that happens on arrival
> here (before redistriution via the list, I mean).



From mneme at io.com  Fri Jul  9 09:00:33 2004
From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:00:33 -0500
Subject: Pete's Question
In-Reply-To: <200407091548.i69FmcnU023015@defender.io.com>
References: <6.0.0.22.2.20040709093922.02ecc010@pop.east.cox.net>
	<200407091548.i69FmcnU023015@defender.io.com>
Message-ID: <16622.49441.33124.660098@fnord.io.com>

Casey Rousseau writes:
>Pete Granzeau asked:
>> Is there an explanation of the multiple messages in the List?
>When I asked DD-B a similar question he replied off list:
>> So far I can tell it's a semi-random event that happens on arrival
>> here (before redistriution via the list, I mean).

Hmm.  I've noticed that the same threads seem to end up triggering the
duplication (though this may be coincidental) -- it's possible it's
content triggered.

-- 
       Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org))  |\      _,,,--,,_  ,)
--^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick    /,`.-'`'   -,  ;-;;'  
  /\\  your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle     |,4-  ) )-,_ ) /\     
/-\\\  your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax            '---''(_/--' (_/-'     


From mneme at io.com  Fri Jul  9 10:12:18 2004
From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:12:18 -0500
Subject: OT: dups
Message-ID: <16622.53746.853267.688931@fnord.io.com>

I've talked to Fred, my boss and local ezmlm/qmail expert.

According to him, assuming the outgoing message ids are not
identical, this is probably caused by the list's .qmail file -- if the
ezmlm line is followed by other lines which can cause temporary
errors, the entire delivery will be retried, resulting in duplicates
going to the list (potentially, a lot of duplicates).

So the .qmail file needs to be reordered, with anything that should
cause a temporary error (ie, a retry) going before the ezmlm
line...and with anything after deliberately not reporting errors at
all -- instead of one of 
command 
command || exit 111

It should be 

command || exit 0

for all commands following the ezmlm line.


-- 
       Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org))  |\      _,,,--,,_  ,)
--^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick    /,`.-'`'   -,  ;-;;'  
  /\\  your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle     |,4-  ) )-,_ ) /\     
/-\\\  your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax            '---''(_/--' (_/-'     


From davids at Kithrup.COM  Fri Jul  9 11:12:12 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:12:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: OT: dups
In-Reply-To: <16622.55280.18280.884239@fnord.io.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040709105920.14102A-100000@kithrup.com>

On Fri, 9 Jul 2004, Joshua Kronengold wrote:

>Note a couple of different things:
>
>	1. The qmail message ID (in this case, 14277-mneme=io.com) is
>	   identical. 

The number in there (14277) is also in the "X-Archive-Number:" 
header.  Isn't that added by ezmlm?  I note that at least in some
cases, this number, which should be unique per message, was/is 
being used for multiple different messages.

I also note the following:

The dups seem to have the following header:

  Received: from unknown (@10.0.0.205)

(or in one case, "Received: from unknown (root at 10.0.0.205)"),
while the non-dup messages (or the last duplicate message) says

  Received: from unknown (dgf at 10.0.0.205)

I am not sure why this might be the case, but I find myself
wondering if there are more processes running and trying to handle
things than there should be, and there is not proper process 
locking to keep a rogue from stepping on the toes of the "sane"
process.

Or perhaps it's a permissions issue - the rogue process sends out
an e-mail, but can't write to a log saying that it has done so, and
therefore thinks it hasn't and tries again?  Then the "sane" 
process (dgf) sends out its e-mail, and properly writes to the log,
so both sane and rogue are satisfied that the e-mail has been sent?

I don't know enough about qmail/ezmlm to offer an informed opinion,
but I've been dealing with weird Unix crap (and weird computer crap
in general) for far too long.



From mneme at io.com  Fri Jul  9 10:37:52 2004
From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:37:52 -0500
Subject: OT: dups
In-Reply-To: <16622.53746.853267.688931@fnord.io.com>
References: <16622.53746.853267.688931@fnord.io.com>
Message-ID: <16622.55280.18280.884239@fnord.io.com>

Actually, to correct my previous mail, this appears to be a post ezmlm
issue (ie, entirely a qmail issue).

Why? Because of this:

(From two different dups of my last message)

>From dragaera-return-14277-mneme=io.com at dragaera.info  Fri Jul  9 12:19:15 2004
X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]
	["1027" "Friday" "9" "July" "2004" "12:12:18" "-0500" "Joshua Kronengold" "mneme at io.com" nil nil "OT: dups" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil (number mark "    Joshua Krone Jul 9 1027 " thread-indent "\"OT: dups\"\n") nil nil]
	nil)
Return-Path: <dragaera-return-14277-mneme=io.com at dragaera.info>
Received: from redbaron.io.com (redbaron.io.com [209.198.128.80])
	by webmail.io.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i69HJFrA024951
	for <mneme at io.com>; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:19:15 -0500
Received: from dd-b.net (IDENT:qmailr at gw.dd-b.net [63.224.10.74])
	by redbaron.io.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id i69HJBgM057101
	for <mneme at io.com>; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:19:12 -0500 (CDT)
	(envelope-from dragaera-return-14277-mneme=io.com at dragaera.info)
Received: (qmail 23355 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2004 17:19:06 -0000
Received: from unknown (@10.0.0.205)
  by 10.0.0.205 with QMQP; 9 Jul 2004 17:19:06 -0000


>From dragaera-return-14277-mneme=io.com at dragaera.info  Fri Jul  9 12:17:42 2004
X-VM-v5-Data: ([nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]
	["1027" "Friday" "9" "July" "2004" "12:12:18" "-0500" "Joshua Kronengold" "mneme at io.com" nil nil "OT: dups" "^From:" nil nil "7" nil nil (number mark "    Joshua Krone Jul 9 1027 " thread-indent "\"OT: dups\"\n") nil nil]
	nil)
Return-Path: <dragaera-return-14277-mneme=io.com at dragaera.info>
Received: from defender.io.com (defender.io.com [209.198.128.79])
	by webmail.io.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i69HHgrA023895
	for <mneme at io.com>; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:17:42 -0500
Received: from dd-b.net (IDENT:qmailr at gw.dd-b.net [63.224.10.74])
	by defender.io.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id i69HHe1i034802
	for <mneme at io.com>; Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:17:41 -0500 (CDT)
	(envelope-from dragaera-return-14277-mneme=io.com at dragaera.info)
Received: (qmail 22916 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2004 17:17:33 -0000
Received: from unknown (@10.0.0.205)
  by 10.0.0.205 with QMQP; 9 Jul 2004 17:17:33 -0000


Note a couple of different things:

	1. The qmail message ID (in this case, 14277-mneme=io.com) is
	   identical. 
	2. The recieved from unknown line has different times -- this
	   seems to indicate multiple internal redilivery attempts
	   with pseudo-failures.

So what appears to be happening is that when ezmlm sends the mail to
qmail (or some similar hop -- that last line), it gets a false
negative and retries.  

Solution 1: figure out what is causing the false internal negatives and
stop it from happening.

Solution 2: deal with the occasional lost message, and don't retry
errors found in this stage.

	


-- 
       Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org))  |\      _,,,--,,_  ,)
--^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick    /,`.-'`'   -,  ;-;;'  
  /\\  your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle     |,4-  ) )-,_ ) /\     
/-\\\  your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax            '---''(_/--' (_/-'     


From davids at Kithrup.COM  Fri Jul  9 17:32:29 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:32:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: OT: dups
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040709105920.14102A-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040709172232.3606A-100000@kithrup.com>

See, this is what I mean - the e-mail that I am now replying to has
(a) an incremented Archive Number,

    X-Archive-Number: 14278

    Return-Path: <dragaera-return-14278-davids=kithrup.com 
    @dragaera.info>

and (b) 

 Received: from unknown (dgf at 10.0.0.205)
   by 10.0.0.205 with QMQP; 9 Jul 2004 23:00:31 -0000

I am now confident that that email and the other two messages that
were duping (the last copies of which also have incremented archive
numbers, as well as the "dgf@") have ceased to duplicate (this
message I am sending now might duplicate, of course, in which
case I apologize in advance).

Thought:  Perhaps the qmail daemon is being overwhelmed by spam,
and the duplicate messages are coinciding with spamfloods at
dragaera.info?



From dd-b at dd-b.net  Fri Jul  9 22:40:47 2004
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:40:47 -0500
Subject: Pete's Question
In-Reply-To: <m2bripxank.fsf@totally-fudged-out-message-id> (Casey
 Rousseau's message of "Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:43:14 -0400")
References: <m2bripxank.fsf@totally-fudged-out-message-id>
Message-ID: <m2r7rkto68.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>

"Casey Rousseau" <casey at the-bat.net> writes:

> Pete Granzeau asked:
>> Is there an explanation of the multiple messages in the List?
>
> When I asked DD-B a similar question he replied off list:
>> So far I can tell it's a semi-random event that happens on arrival
>> here (before redistriution via the list, I mean).

And many theories have been tried and found irrelevent.  It's not just
list mail, it's any email arriving here.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Fri Jul  9 22:43:25 2004
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:43:25 -0500
Subject: OT: dups
In-Reply-To: <16622.55280.18280.884239@fnord.io.com> (Joshua Kronengold's
 message of "Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:37:52 -0500")
References: <16622.53746.853267.688931@fnord.io.com>
	<16622.55280.18280.884239@fnord.io.com>
Message-ID: <m2n028to1u.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>

Joshua Kronengold <mneme at io.com> writes:

> So what appears to be happening is that when ezmlm sends the mail to
> qmail (or some similar hop -- that last line), it gets a false
> negative and retries.  
>
> Solution 1: figure out what is causing the false internal negatives and
> stop it from happening.
>
> Solution 2: deal with the occasional lost message, and don't retry
> errors found in this stage.

No, this isn't what's happening.  It's on the *original* delivery of
the message from the subscriber to here.  
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From asr at ufl.edu  Sat Jul 10 09:31:42 2004
From: asr at ufl.edu (asr at ufl.edu)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 12:31:42 -0400
Subject: milk-nose moment.  (actually, hot tea with milk)  
Message-ID: <200407101631.i6AGVgLP050408@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu>



Greetings; thought I'd share a pleasant '500 years after' experience.  I've
been reading the Vlads to my wife Christine for some time now, and am now
going through the Kahvren books.   

'Well, but they are Dragonlords; wherefore does this mean they are not friends?'

caused spontaneous tea-sinus insertion and a hiatus in reading while the
cough-mop operation was completed.  Luckily, the tea wasn't freshly brewed,
else burns might have resulted. 


I can reccommend the read-aloud method for re-experiencing the books with a
fresh perspective.  Both series are also nicely populated with varying
characters to voice.  I simply love reading Tazendra.


- Allen S. Rout


From davids at Kithrup.COM  Sat Jul 10 12:01:17 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 12:01:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Pete's Question
In-Reply-To: <m2r7rkto68.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040710113342.5547A-100000@kithrup.com>

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

>
>And many theories have been tried and found irrelevent.  It's not
>just list mail, it's any email arriving here. 

Are you sure that it's not two different problems, one causing the
duplication of inbound mail, the other causing the duplication of
outgoing ezmlm mail?

I'm just wondering...



From Gaertk at aol.com  Sun Jul 11 10:52:10 2004
From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:52:10 -0400
Subject: Possibly of interest to folks here...
Message-ID: <311E522F.1ADAA1ED.00048EA6@aol.com>

Tor publishes a catalog three times a year, and normally one
of my co-workers gets a copy, but for some reason the Fall 2004
one hasn't shown up yet (it should have arrived in early May).

Mentioning this over on rasfw, someone found a copy online:
http://www.stmartins.com/Footers/doingbusiness/catalog-F04-Tor.pdf

I just thought I'd post to draw people's attention to page 40.

[And so far, none of *my* posts have duplicated.]


--KG



From michaelangelo at tripp-russo.com  Sun Jul 11 15:52:14 2004
From: michaelangelo at tripp-russo.com (Michael Angelo Tripp-Russo)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 17:52:14 -0500
Subject: Possibly of interest to folks here...
References: <311E522F.1ADAA1ED.00048EA6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <40F1C49E.5020600@tripp-russo.com>



Gaertk at aol.com wrote:

>Tor publishes a catalog three times a year, and normally one
>of my co-workers gets a copy, but for some reason the Fall 2004
>one hasn't shown up yet (it should have arrived in early May).
>
>Mentioning this over on rasfw, someone found a copy online:
>http://www.stmartins.com/Footers/doingbusiness/catalog-F04-Tor.pdf
>
>I just thought I'd post to draw people's attention to page 40.
>
>[And so far, none of *my* posts have duplicated.]
>
>
>--KG
>

Oooo, neato!

I'm for one curious.




From dd-b at dd-b.net  Sun Jul 11 17:02:39 2004
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 19:02:39 -0500
Subject: Pete's Question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040710113342.5547A-100000@kithrup.com> (David
 Silberstein's message of "Sat, 10 Jul 2004 12:01:17 -0700 (PDT)")
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040710113342.5547A-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <m2vfgum6sg.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>

David Silberstein <davids at Kithrup.COM> writes:

> On Sat, 10 Jul 2004, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>
>>
>>And many theories have been tried and found irrelevent.  It's not
>>just list mail, it's any email arriving here. 
>
> Are you sure that it's not two different problems, one causing the
> duplication of inbound mail, the other causing the duplication of
> outgoing ezmlm mail?
>
> I'm just wondering...

It could in fact be that; and Joshua has presented some evidence that
it is, in fact, that.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From scott at cjhunter.com  Mon Jul 12 08:36:24 2004
From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:36:24 -0700
Subject: Possibly of interest to folks here...
In-Reply-To: <311E522F.1ADAA1ED.00048EA6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <55b401c46826$02884ef0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>

At the risk of appearing a Philistine, I'll ask which book on page 40 is the
one exciting interest?

I'm supposing it must be the Thieve's World book. I take it that someone
(Lynne Abbey?) has ressurected the series, seeing as how Thieve's World as a
concept is hardly what one could call "All New". 

The idea of the shared world is interesting and was actually decently done
in the very first book. It was the following two books where things went
downhill. For me, the concept fell apart due to the inconsistencies of
having a dozen different "takes" on the same characters. After a while, you
couldn't tell just what any particular character was really like or was
capable of. By the third book, there was no single true objective reality
grounding the series. I got the feeling that Aspirin spent a lot of time
coordinating the first book but that he just didn't care much any more by
the time the third book rolled around.

I suppose that if Thieve's World has been ressurected that someone might
take it into their head to ressurect Wild Cards as well. (Actually, a quick
scan of the web shows that Wild Cards apparently never died. The sixteenth
voume was published last year and it looks like there's even been a novel or
two. I guess that superheroes never go out of fashion.)





From casey at the-bat.net  Mon Jul 12 08:56:11 2004
From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:56:11 -0400
Subject: Possibly of interest to folks here...
In-Reply-To: <55b401c46826$02884ef0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <mailman.0.1157398837.1952.dragaera@dragaera.info>

Scott Schultz asked: 
> At the risk of appearing a Philistine, I'll ask which book on 
> page 40 is the one exciting interest?
> 
> I'm supposing it must be the Thieve's World book.

Yes, indeed.  Perhaps if you read the description (or the cover shot)
carefully you will notice the relevance to this list.  And, for what
it's worth, it's Thieves' not Thieve's.  For that matter, it's Lynn not
Lynne.



From jtoth at megrez.org  Mon Jul 12 08:52:47 2004
From: jtoth at megrez.org (Jim Toth)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:52:47 -0400
Subject: Possibly of interest to folks here...
In-Reply-To: <55b401c46826$02884ef0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
References: <311E522F.1ADAA1ED.00048EA6@aol.com> <55b401c46826$02884ef0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <20040712155247.GA6356@castor.megrez.org>

On Mon, Jul 12, 2004 at 08:36:24AM -0700, Scott Schultz (scott at cjhunter.com) said:
> At the risk of appearing a Philistine, I'll ask which book on page 40 is the
> one exciting interest?
> 
> I'm supposing it must be the Thieve's World book.

Yes, that's right.

> I take it that someone (Lynne Abbey?) has ressurected the series,
> seeing as how Thieve's World as a concept is hardly what one could
> call "All New". 

True.  I suspect the reason this was sent to the Brust list was, well,
one of the contributors mentioned in the blurb has a last name that
starts with "B", ends with "t", and has the letters "r", "s", and "u"
in the middle.  ;-)

However, the only thing that mentions "All new" is the phrase "All new
stories," which to me would imply (even if I'd never heard of Thieves'
World before" that this was not a new shared world.

-- 
Jim Toth
jtoth at megrez.org


From jhereg69 at earthlink.net  Mon Jul 12 08:54:14 2004
From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:54:14 -0400
Subject: Possibly of interest to folks here...
In-Reply-To: <55b401c46826$02884ef0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
References: <55b401c46826$02884ef0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <40F2B426.7080102@earthlink.net>

Scott Schultz wrote:
> At the risk of appearing a Philistine, I'll ask which book on page 40 is the
> one exciting interest?

Probably the Thieves' World book, as Steve apparently has contributed a 
story for it.

Jose
-- 
Jose Marquez                       \  Cthulhu 2004
jhereg69 at earthlink.net              \  Why vote for
http://home.earthlink.net/~jhereg69  \  the lesser evil?



From scott at cjhunter.com  Mon Jul 12 09:25:29 2004
From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:25:29 -0700
Subject: Possibly of interest to folks here...
In-Reply-To: <200407121557.i6CFvDmn024730@mail.cjhunter.com>
Message-ID: <56b801c4682c$de3e2180$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>


> Yes, indeed.  Perhaps if you read the description (or the 
> cover shot) carefully you will notice the relevance to this 
> list.  And, for what it's worth, it's Thieves' not Thieve's.  
> For that matter, it's Lynn not Lynne.
> 
> 

Guilty on all counts. I plead lack of coffee and throw myself on the mercy
of the court. ;-)

Reading the entire blurb (instead of stopping with the story synopsis)
appears to also reveal that Lynn Abbey was married to Robert Aspirin at one
point. Not that I'll ever do anything useful with that factoid, other than
offer it as evidence that the list has taught me to read thoroughly before
commenting. :-P





From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov  Mon Jul 12 10:20:13 2004
From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:20:13 -0400
Subject: Possibly of interest to folks here...
References: <56b801c4682c$de3e2180$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <40F2C84D.7070108@email.ers.usda.gov>



Scott Schultz wrote:

 > Guilty on all counts. I plead lack of coffee and throw myself on the 
mercy of the court. ;-)

Never a justiciar when you need one (-:

ken




From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 12 10:15:07 2004
From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:15:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Steve's Weblog
In-Reply-To: <E1BifJE-00006r-00@turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20040712171507.60711.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com>

--- David Rodemaker <dar at horusinc.com> wrote:
...

> > Indeed. I found some of my old high school and collage papers while
> > moving,
> > and reread those. It was interesting to see the way my writing style
> has
> > changed, as well as the way I drew my conclusions.

I may do this if I'm terminally ill and can risk dying of
embarrassment.

> What is more interesting is to return to school after a ~12 year absence
> and
> look at difference in style and usage.
>  
> It's been a very interesting trip over the last 3 years as I finished my
> B.A.
> 
> What is rather frightening is my GRE scores, I don't consider myself
> that
> great of a writer (aside from vocabulary) in a technical sense - and I'm
> evidently quite wrong in that assessment.

As a good test taker, I've had similar experiences.

Normally I restrain myself, but this time I can't resist suggesting
that you write "that great a writer" (no "of").

Jerry Friedman


		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov  Mon Jul 12 10:20:13 2004
From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:20:13 -0400
Subject: Possibly of interest to folks here...
References: <56b801c4682c$de3e2180$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <40F2C84D.7070108@email.ers.usda.gov>



Scott Schultz wrote:

 > Guilty on all counts. I plead lack of coffee and throw myself on the 
mercy of the court. ;-)

Never a justiciar when you need one (-:

ken




From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 12 10:15:07 2004
From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:15:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Steve's Weblog
In-Reply-To: <E1BifJE-00006r-00@turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20040712171507.60711.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com>

--- David Rodemaker <dar at horusinc.com> wrote:
...

> > Indeed. I found some of my old high school and collage papers while
> > moving,
> > and reread those. It was interesting to see the way my writing style
> has
> > changed, as well as the way I drew my conclusions.

I may do this if I'm terminally ill and can risk dying of
embarrassment.

> What is more interesting is to return to school after a ~12 year absence
> and
> look at difference in style and usage.
>  
> It's been a very interesting trip over the last 3 years as I finished my
> B.A.
> 
> What is rather frightening is my GRE scores, I don't consider myself
> that
> great of a writer (aside from vocabulary) in a technical sense - and I'm
> evidently quite wrong in that assessment.

As a good test taker, I've had similar experiences.

Normally I restrain myself, but this time I can't resist suggesting
that you write "that great a writer" (no "of").

Jerry Friedman


		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 12 10:15:07 2004
From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:15:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Steve's Weblog
In-Reply-To: <E1BifJE-00006r-00@turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20040712171507.60711.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com>

--- David Rodemaker <dar at horusinc.com> wrote:
...

> > Indeed. I found some of my old high school and collage papers while
> > moving,
> > and reread those. It was interesting to see the way my writing style
> has
> > changed, as well as the way I drew my conclusions.

I may do this if I'm terminally ill and can risk dying of
embarrassment.

> What is more interesting is to return to school after a ~12 year absence
> and
> look at difference in style and usage.
>  
> It's been a very interesting trip over the last 3 years as I finished my
> B.A.
> 
> What is rather frightening is my GRE scores, I don't consider myself
> that
> great of a writer (aside from vocabulary) in a technical sense - and I'm
> evidently quite wrong in that assessment.

As a good test taker, I've had similar experiences.

Normally I restrain myself, but this time I can't resist suggesting
that you write "that great a writer" (no "of").

Jerry Friedman


		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov  Mon Jul 12 10:20:13 2004
From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:20:13 -0400
Subject: Possibly of interest to folks here...
References: <56b801c4682c$de3e2180$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <40F2C84D.7070108@email.ers.usda.gov>



Scott Schultz wrote:

 > Guilty on all counts. I plead lack of coffee and throw myself on the 
mercy of the court. ;-)

Never a justiciar when you need one (-:

ken




From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov  Mon Jul 12 10:20:13 2004
From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:20:13 -0400
Subject: Possibly of interest to folks here...
References: <56b801c4682c$de3e2180$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <40F2C84D.7070108@email.ers.usda.gov>



Scott Schultz wrote:

 > Guilty on all counts. I plead lack of coffee and throw myself on the 
mercy of the court. ;-)

Never a justiciar when you need one (-:

ken




From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov  Mon Jul 12 10:20:13 2004
From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:20:13 -0400
Subject: Possibly of interest to folks here...
References: <56b801c4682c$de3e2180$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <40F2C84D.7070108@email.ers.usda.gov>



Scott Schultz wrote:

 > Guilty on all counts. I plead lack of coffee and throw myself on the 
mercy of the court. ;-)

Never a justiciar when you need one (-:

ken




From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 12 10:15:07 2004
From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:15:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Steve's Weblog
In-Reply-To: <E1BifJE-00006r-00@turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20040712171507.60711.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com>

--- David Rodemaker <dar at horusinc.com> wrote:
...

> > Indeed. I found some of my old high school and collage papers while
> > moving,
> > and reread those. It was interesting to see the way my writing style
> has
> > changed, as well as the way I drew my conclusions.

I may do this if I'm terminally ill and can risk dying of
embarrassment.

> What is more interesting is to return to school after a ~12 year absence
> and
> look at difference in style and usage.
>  
> It's been a very interesting trip over the last 3 years as I finished my
> B.A.
> 
> What is rather frightening is my GRE scores, I don't consider myself
> that
> great of a writer (aside from vocabulary) in a technical sense - and I'm
> evidently quite wrong in that assessment.

As a good test taker, I've had similar experiences.

Normally I restrain myself, but this time I can't resist suggesting
that you write "that great a writer" (no "of").

Jerry Friedman


		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 12 10:15:07 2004
From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:15:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Steve's Weblog
In-Reply-To: <E1BifJE-00006r-00@turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20040712171507.60711.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com>

--- David Rodemaker <dar at horusinc.com> wrote:
...

> > Indeed. I found some of my old high school and collage papers while
> > moving,
> > and reread those. It was interesting to see the way my writing style
> has
> > changed, as well as the way I drew my conclusions.

I may do this if I'm terminally ill and can risk dying of
embarrassment.

> What is more interesting is to return to school after a ~12 year absence
> and
> look at difference in style and usage.
>  
> It's been a very interesting trip over the last 3 years as I finished my
> B.A.
> 
> What is rather frightening is my GRE scores, I don't consider myself
> that
> great of a writer (aside from vocabulary) in a technical sense - and I'm
> evidently quite wrong in that assessment.

As a good test taker, I've had similar experiences.

Normally I restrain myself, but this time I can't resist suggesting
that you write "that great a writer" (no "of").

Jerry Friedman


		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 12 10:33:08 2004
From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:33:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Steve's Weblog
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407081153390.23611@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <20040712173308.29057.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Philip Hart <philiph at slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> 
> 
> On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Casey Rousseau wrote:
> 
> > Steve blogged:
> > >I think I write gooder now than I usta did.
> >
> > Well, I hope so.  Imagine how you'd feel if after twenty years of
> > writing for a living you hadn't improved at all.
> 
> 
> It's not clear to me that this expectation is generally justified. I
> suspect that in SF it's rarer to see monotonically improving writing
> than
> a sharp improvement followed by a slow decline.  In poetry certainly
> people often just run out of experience to draw on (at least until they
> hit late old age).  Why Silverberg or Zelazny (or LeGuin after say _The
> Dispossesed_; or Wolfe after the New Sun; or...) peaked early I can't
> say.

Hm.  I think _Malafrena_ and _Always Coming Home_ are as good
as anything Le Guin wrote earlier, and I like _The Other Wind_
as much as any of the earlier Earthsea books.

As for Wolfe, _Citadel of the Autarch_ was published the year he
turned 52; I don't know whether that counts as peaking early.
Maybe because it was only fifteen years after he published his
first story?  I agree that the New Sun is his peak so far, but
I'd say any decline after that has been *very* slow (not counting
_The Urth of the New Sun_, that disaster).

> Maybe something about ambition and careers and life.

I suspect so.  On rasfw, though (as many here know), it's
attributed to the Brain Eater.

Department of Bizarrerie: The poet John Logan, in one of the
_Naked Poetry_ anthologies (iirc), said that so many poets die
or go crazy or stop writing poetry around the age of 35 because
in their "body of work" they're symbolically recreating the body
of their parent of the opposite sex, and halfway through their
lives they're halfway done with the body, which means they've
gotten to a part they can't face.

I suppose part of this may have been true of Sylvia Plath,
anyway.


Jerry Friedman has written very little poetry since the age of 37.


	
		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 


From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov  Mon Jul 12 10:53:34 2004
From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:53:34 -0400
Subject: Steve's Weblog
References: <20040712173308.29057.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <40F2D01E.6050400@email.ers.usda.gov>



Jerry Friedman wrote:

>Department of Bizarrerie: The poet John Logan, in one of the
>_Naked Poetry_ anthologies (iirc), said that so many poets die
>or go crazy or stop writing poetry around the age of 35 because
>in their "body of work" they're symbolically recreating the body
>of their parent of the opposite sex, and halfway through their
>lives they're halfway done with the body, which means they've
>gotten to a part they can't face.
>
>I suppose part of this may have been true of Sylvia Plath,
>anyway.
>
>  
>
OTOH, Yeats would be remembered as a minor, second rate poet had he died 
before
turning 40;  all of his best work post-dates that, & even in his dotage, 
so to speak, he
was still turning out masterworks, "The Circus Animals' Desertion", for 
example.

ken



From dd-b at dd-b.net  Mon Jul 12 11:09:27 2004
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:09:27 -0500
Subject: Possibly of interest to folks here...
In-Reply-To: <55b401c46826$02884ef0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> (Scott Schultz's
 message of "Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:36:24 -0700")
References: <55b401c46826$02884ef0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <m2hdsdjdwo.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>

"Scott Schultz" <scott at cjhunter.com> writes:

> At the risk of appearing a Philistine, I'll ask which book on page 40 is the
> one exciting interest?

I'm guessing it's the one that says it has a Steven Brust story in it.

Which is indeed the Thieve's World book.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From usagigoya at hotmail.com  Mon Jul 12 11:53:00 2004
From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:53:00 +0000
Subject: Thieves' World
Message-ID: <BAY8-F84LstPGtPrPrv00004511@hotmail.com>




>From: "Scott Schultz" <scott at cjhunter.com>
>To: <dragaera at dragaera.info>
>Subject: RE: Possibly of interest to folks here...
>Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:36:24 -0700
>
>At the risk of appearing a Philistine, I'll ask which book on page 40 is 
>the
>one exciting interest?

A book featuring a short story by Steven Brust, an author who rarely writes 
short stories, does excite attention. Steven Brust was a contributor to a 
previous shared world anthology series...

>I'm supposing it must be the Thieve's World book. I take it that someone
>(Lynne Abbey?) has ressurected the series, seeing as how Thieve's World as 
>a
>concept is hardly what one could call "All New".
>
>The idea of the shared world is interesting and was actually decently done
>in the very first book. It was the following two books where things went
>downhill. For me, the concept fell apart due to the inconsistencies of
>having a dozen different "takes" on the same characters. After a while, you
>couldn't tell just what any particular character was really like or was
>capable of. By the third book, there was no single true objective reality
>grounding the series. I got the feeling that Aspirin spent a lot of time
>coordinating the first book but that he just didn't care much any more by
>the time the third book rolled around.

I my humble opinion, The Thieves' World series started off with a decent 
couple of books and then the main core of contributing writers settled in to 
the concept and things really started happening. The only real rule was you 
could not "kill off" someone elses character... (But nobody said anything 
about bringing back someone elses character after the original creator had 
killed them off). The first couple of books were collections of individual 
stories, then the series became more of a continuing story with multiple 
authors all contributing to the plot.

Theives' World was one of the few series which I was overjoyed to see new 
releases for and was sorry to see end... None of the other shared universe 
series (not counting Dragon Lance and Forgotten Realms) came close to what 
it achieved.

_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee? 
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963



From usagigoya at hotmail.com  Mon Jul 12 11:53:00 2004
From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:53:00 +0000
Subject: Thieves' World
Message-ID: <BAY8-F84LstPGtPrPrv00004511@hotmail.com>




>From: "Scott Schultz" <scott at cjhunter.com>
>To: <dragaera at dragaera.info>
>Subject: RE: Possibly of interest to folks here...
>Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:36:24 -0700
>
>At the risk of appearing a Philistine, I'll ask which book on page 40 is 
>the
>one exciting interest?

A book featuring a short story by Steven Brust, an author who rarely writes 
short stories, does excite attention. Steven Brust was a contributor to a 
previous shared world anthology series...

>I'm supposing it must be the Thieve's World book. I take it that someone
>(Lynne Abbey?) has ressurected the series, seeing as how Thieve's World as 
>a
>concept is hardly what one could call "All New".
>
>The idea of the shared world is interesting and was actually decently done
>in the very first book. It was the following two books where things went
>downhill. For me, the concept fell apart due to the inconsistencies of
>having a dozen different "takes" on the same characters. After a while, you
>couldn't tell just what any particular character was really like or was
>capable of. By the third book, there was no single true objective reality
>grounding the series. I got the feeling that Aspirin spent a lot of time
>coordinating the first book but that he just didn't care much any more by
>the time the third book rolled around.

I my humble opinion, The Thieves' World series started off with a decent 
couple of books and then the main core of contributing writers settled in to 
the concept and things really started happening. The only real rule was you 
could not "kill off" someone elses character... (But nobody said anything 
about bringing back someone elses character after the original creator had 
killed them off). The first couple of books were collections of individual 
stories, then the series became more of a continuing story with multiple 
authors all contributing to the plot.

Theives' World was one of the few series which I was overjoyed to see new 
releases for and was sorry to see end... None of the other shared universe 
series (not counting Dragon Lance and Forgotten Realms) came close to what 
it achieved.

_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee? 
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963



From usagigoya at hotmail.com  Mon Jul 12 11:53:00 2004
From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:53:00 +0000
Subject: Thieves' World
Message-ID: <BAY8-F84LstPGtPrPrv00004511@hotmail.com>




>From: "Scott Schultz" <scott at cjhunter.com>
>To: <dragaera at dragaera.info>
>Subject: RE: Possibly of interest to folks here...
>Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:36:24 -0700
>
>At the risk of appearing a Philistine, I'll ask which book on page 40 is 
>the
>one exciting interest?

A book featuring a short story by Steven Brust, an author who rarely writes 
short stories, does excite attention. Steven Brust was a contributor to a 
previous shared world anthology series...

>I'm supposing it must be the Thieve's World book. I take it that someone
>(Lynne Abbey?) has ressurected the series, seeing as how Thieve's World as 
>a
>concept is hardly what one could call "All New".
>
>The idea of the shared world is interesting and was actually decently done
>in the very first book. It was the following two books where things went
>downhill. For me, the concept fell apart due to the inconsistencies of
>having a dozen different "takes" on the same characters. After a while, you
>couldn't tell just what any particular character was really like or was
>capable of. By the third book, there was no single true objective reality
>grounding the series. I got the feeling that Aspirin spent a lot of time
>coordinating the first book but that he just didn't care much any more by
>the time the third book rolled around.

I my humble opinion, The Thieves' World series started off with a decent 
couple of books and then the main core of contributing writers settled in to 
the concept and things really started happening. The only real rule was you 
could not "kill off" someone elses character... (But nobody said anything 
about bringing back someone elses character after the original creator had 
killed them off). The first couple of books were collections of individual 
stories, then the series became more of a continuing story with multiple 
authors all contributing to the plot.

Theives' World was one of the few series which I was overjoyed to see new 
releases for and was sorry to see end... None of the other shared universe 
series (not counting Dragon Lance and Forgotten Realms) came close to what 
it achieved.

_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee? 
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963



From usagigoya at hotmail.com  Mon Jul 12 11:53:00 2004
From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 18:53:00 +0000
Subject: Thieves' World
Message-ID: <BAY8-F84LstPGtPrPrv00004511@hotmail.com>




>From: "Scott Schultz" <scott at cjhunter.com>
>To: <dragaera at dragaera.info>
>Subject: RE: Possibly of interest to folks here...
>Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:36:24 -0700
>
>At the risk of appearing a Philistine, I'll ask which book on page 40 is 
>the
>one exciting interest?

A book featuring a short story by Steven Brust, an author who rarely writes 
short stories, does excite attention. Steven Brust was a contributor to a 
previous shared world anthology series...

>I'm supposing it must be the Thieve's World book. I take it that someone
>(Lynne Abbey?) has ressurected the series, seeing as how Thieve's World as 
>a
>concept is hardly what one could call "All New".
>
>The idea of the shared world is interesting and was actually decently done
>in the very first book. It was the following two books where things went
>downhill. For me, the concept fell apart due to the inconsistencies of
>having a dozen different "takes" on the same characters. After a while, you
>couldn't tell just what any particular character was really like or was
>capable of. By the third book, there was no single true objective reality
>grounding the series. I got the feeling that Aspirin spent a lot of time
>coordinating the first book but that he just didn't care much any more by
>the time the third book rolled around.

I my humble opinion, The Thieves' World series started off with a decent 
couple of books and then the main core of contributing writers settled in to 
the concept and things really started happening. The only real rule was you 
could not "kill off" someone elses character... (But nobody said anything 
about bringing back someone elses character after the original creator had 
killed them off). The first couple of books were collections of individual 
stories, then the series became more of a continuing story with multiple 
authors all contributing to the plot.

Theives' World was one of the few series which I was overjoyed to see new 
releases for and was sorry to see end... None of the other shared universe 
series (not counting Dragon Lance and Forgotten Realms) came close to what 
it achieved.

_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee? 
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963



From mneme at io.com  Mon Jul 12 14:22:11 2004
From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:22:11 -0500
Subject: Thieves' World
In-Reply-To: <BAY8-F84LstPGtPrPrv00004511@hotmail.com>
References: <BAY8-F84LstPGtPrPrv00004511@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <16627.259.320598.343494@fnord.io.com>

Steve Hubbell writes:
>Theives' World was one of the few series which I was overjoyed to see new 
>releases for and was sorry to see end... None of the other shared universe 
>series (not counting Dragon Lance and Forgotten Realms) came close to what 
>it achieved.

Liavek far supassed it, IMO.


-- 
       Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org))  |\      _,,,--,,_  ,)
--^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick    /,`.-'`'   -,  ;-;;'  
  /\\  your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle     |,4-  ) )-,_ ) /\     
/-\\\  your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax            '---''(_/--' (_/-'     


From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 12 15:07:56 2004
From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:07:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Steve's Weblog
In-Reply-To: <40F2D01E.6050400@email.ers.usda.gov>
Message-ID: <20040712220756.94714.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Ken Koester <kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov> wrote:
> 
> 
> Jerry Friedman wrote:
> 
> >Department of Bizarrerie: The poet John Logan, in one of the
> >_Naked Poetry_ anthologies (iirc), said that so many poets die
> >or go crazy or stop writing poetry around the age of 35 because
> >in their "body of work" they're symbolically recreating the body
> >of their parent of the opposite sex, and halfway through their
> >lives they're halfway done with the body, which means they've
> >gotten to a part they can't face.
> >
> >I suppose part of this may have been true of Sylvia Plath,
> >anyway.
> >
> >  
> >
> OTOH, Yeats would be remembered as a minor, second rate poet had he died
> 
> before
> turning 40;  all of his best work post-dates that, & even in his dotage,
> 
> so to speak, he
> was still turning out masterworks, "The Circus Animals' Desertion", for 
> example.

Right.  I forgot to mention the other thing that could happen
in Logan's theory--the quality of the poet's work could change
considerably, sometimes even for the better.

Jerry Friedman went into a hazel wood...

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From adia at hellug.gr  Tue Jul 13 12:00:58 2004
From: adia at hellug.gr (Alexandros Diamantidis)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:00:58 +0300
Subject: About this multiple mail thing...
Message-ID: <20040713190058.GA12834@hellug.gr>

Hello,

I've been subscribed to the dragaera mailing list for a long time now,
as adia at noc.uoa.gr. When multiple copies of postings to the list started
arriving to others, I wasn't affected - I continued receiving just one
copy of everything. Tomorrow, I unsubscribed that address and subscribed
this one (adia at hellug.gr), and (surprise!) I started getting multiple
copies.

Just a data point, which may help you track down the problem.

Thanks,
-- 
Alexandros Diamantidis * adia at hellug.gr


From jtoth at megrez.org  Tue Jul 13 12:41:09 2004
From: jtoth at megrez.org (Jim Toth)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:41:09 -0400
Subject: About this multiple mail thing...
In-Reply-To: <20040713190058.GA12834@hellug.gr>
References: <20040713190058.GA12834@hellug.gr>
Message-ID: <20040713194109.GA13486@castor.megrez.org>

On Tue, Jul 13, 2004 at 10:00:58PM +0300, Alexandros Diamantidis (adia at hellug.gr) said:
> Hello,
> 
> I've been subscribed to the dragaera mailing list for a long time now,
> as adia at noc.uoa.gr. When multiple copies of postings to the list started
> arriving to others, I wasn't affected - I continued receiving just one
> copy of everything. Tomorrow, I unsubscribed that address and subscribed
> this one (adia at hellug.gr), and (surprise!) I started getting multiple
> copies.

It might be that your previous mail provider was trashing emails with
duplicate message-IDs.  The server at work does that, and at home I
put them into a folder and check them, well, almost never.  (I've
looked in it recently only because of this discussion.)

-- 
Jim Toth
jtoth at megrez.org


From jhereg69 at earthlink.net  Tue Jul 13 13:19:02 2004
From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:19:02 -0400
Subject: About this multiple mail thing...
In-Reply-To: <20040713194109.GA13486@castor.megrez.org>
References: <20040713190058.GA12834@hellug.gr> <20040713194109.GA13486@castor.megrez.org>
Message-ID: <40F443B6.5080301@earthlink.net>

Jim Toth wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 13, 2004 at 10:00:58PM +0300, Alexandros Diamantidis (adia at hellug.gr) said:
> 
>>Hello,
>>
>>I've been subscribed to the dragaera mailing list for a long time now,
>>as adia at noc.uoa.gr. When multiple copies of postings to the list started
>>arriving to others, I wasn't affected - I continued receiving just one
>>copy of everything. Tomorrow, I unsubscribed that address and subscribed
>>this one (adia at hellug.gr), and (surprise!) I started getting multiple
>>copies.
> 
> 
> It might be that your previous mail provider was trashing emails with
> duplicate message-IDs.  The server at work does that, and at home I
> put them into a folder and check them, well, almost never.  (I've
> looked in it recently only because of this discussion.)

Neither of your posts generated duplicates (at least as late as this 
posting, although the problem seems to perversely surface when people 
refer to it thinking it is over), and I have been receiving the multiple 
posts.

Jose
-- 
Jose Marquez                       \  Cthulhu 2004
jhereg69 at earthlink.net              \  Why vote for
http://home.earthlink.net/~jhereg69  \  the lesser evil?



From mneme at io.com  Tue Jul 13 13:24:31 2004
From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold)
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:24:31 -0500
Subject: About this multiple mail thing...
In-Reply-To: <20040713190058.GA12834@hellug.gr>
References: <20040713190058.GA12834@hellug.gr>
Message-ID: <16628.17663.338434.689781@fnord.io.com>

Alexandros Diamantidis writes:
>I've been subscribed to the dragaera mailing list for a long time now,
>as adia at noc.uoa.gr. When multiple copies of postings to the list started
>arriving to others, I wasn't affected - I continued receiving just one
>copy of everything. Tomorrow, I unsubscribed that address and subscribed
>this one (adia at hellug.gr), and (surprise!) I started getting multiple
>copies.

>Just a data point, which may help you track down the problem.

As mentioned, it's possible that this is because your server trashes
dupes.

It's also possible (given that we've established a limit to how
-early- the dupes could have been generated in the process [not very],
but haven't established a limit to how late they are being generated)
that the issue is actually a very low time limit for acknowledgement
>from the recieving smtp server.

My guess is that it isn't -- that it's a low limit (or other false
negative) in the qmail->qmail transfer -- note that for most of us,
the dupes appear to be across the board (most people get the same
number of dupes) and time related (ie, either the server is duping
every message, or it's not doing dupes at all, like now).


-- 
       Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org))  |\      _,,,--,,_  ,)
--^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick    /,`.-'`'   -,  ;-;;'  
  /\\  your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle     |,4-  ) )-,_ ) /\     
/-\\\  your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax            '---''(_/--' (_/-'     


From adia at hellug.gr  Tue Jul 13 14:16:20 2004
From: adia at hellug.gr (Alexandros Diamantidis)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:16:20 +0300
Subject: About this multiple mail thing...
In-Reply-To: <20040713194109.GA13486@castor.megrez.org>
References: <20040713190058.GA12834@hellug.gr> <20040713194109.GA13486@castor.megrez.org>
Message-ID: <20040713211619.GA21746@hellug.gr>

* Jim Toth <jtoth at megrez.org> [2004-07-13 15:41]:
> It might be that your previous mail provider was trashing emails with
> duplicate message-IDs.

Hmm... It does, I just checked. OK, sorry about this.

-- 
Alexandros Diamantidis * adia at hellug.gr


From scott at cjhunter.com  Wed Jul 14 10:50:49 2004
From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:50:49 -0700
Subject: Dragaeran Westerns?
In-Reply-To: <20040713211619.GA21746@hellug.gr>
Message-ID: <008d01c469cb$1bc35440$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>


It never ceases to amaze me just what you find when you start randomly
browsing the Web.

Being too lazy to actually bookmark very many websites, I did a search on
"Steve Brust web log" to locate the Dream Caf?. After satisfying my
curiosity, I started browsing some of the other entries in the search
results, which was a surprisingly large number (4760) given the keywords.

Mixed in with the blogs of people who happened to be reading one Brustian
novel or another, I found this rather intriguing factoid in the blog of one
Laurel Krahn:

"This link [a Tombstone fan site that is apparently defunct now] is
dedicated to anyone who has seen Tombstone: The Steve Brust Edition,
especially those who were there at that one Fourth Street Fantasy
convention. "

The blog entry in question is dated September 21, 2000. I'd be interested to
hear about this particular bit of roleplay. A Brustian take on Wyatt Earp
sounds like an interesting way to kill a couple of hours at a convention.
;-)




From davids at Kithrup.COM  Wed Jul 14 16:49:21 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:49:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Dragaeran Westerns?
In-Reply-To: <008d01c469cb$1bc35440$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040714164315.18543A-100000@kithrup.com>

On Wed, 14 Jul 2004, Scott Schultz wrote:


>"This link [a Tombstone fan site that is apparently defunct now] is

After banging around a bit in the web archive, I believe the most
recent live version of that site is:

   http://members.cox.net/tombstone/

While he does not link to it, there's a script available:

   http://www.dailyscript.com/scripts/tomb_stone.html

>dedicated to anyone who has seen Tombstone: The Steve Brust Edition,
>especially those who were there at that one Fourth Street Fantasy
>convention. "

There is also this post by the noble C. Sophronia Cleebers^W^W^W
Teresa Nielsen Hayden:

   http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004389.html#36260

   I'll also nominate Tombstone. There's a nifty script just under
   the surface that's full of interesting historical details. The
   Steve Brust version of the movie is best, though in order to see
   it you have to have Steve there to fast-forward past the scenes
   he disapproves of. The result is surprisingly coherent.

So, Steve, which scenes do you disapprove of, in general?



From skzb at dreamcafe.com  Wed Jul 14 15:08:16 2004
From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:08:16 -0700
Subject: Dragaeran Westerns?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040714164315.18543A-100000@kithrup.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040714164315.18543A-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <1089842896.2707.12.camel@localhost>

On Wed, 2004-07-14 at 16:49, David Silberstein wrote:
 
> So, Steve, which scenes do you disapprove of, in general?
> 
> 

A) Anything with Dana Delany in it.

B) The stupid ones.




From bonham15 at cox.net  Thu Jul 15 23:01:33 2004
From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 01:01:33 -0500
Subject: Dragaeran Westerns?
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040714164315.18543A-100000@kithrup.com> <1089842896.2707.12.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <000d01c46afa$58ef9100$6701a8c0@user79dn2jmjai>





> On Wed, 2004-07-14 at 16:49, David Silberstein wrote:
>  
> > So, Steve, which scenes do you disapprove of, in general?
> > 
> > 
> 
> A) Anything with Dana Delany in it.
> 
> B) The stupid ones.
i was wrong, you ain't no huckleberry!

andy


From corwin at mpls.cx  Fri Jul 16 07:44:10 2004
From: corwin at mpls.cx (Corwin Brust)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:44:10 -0500
Subject: Dragaeran Westerns?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040714164315.18543A-100000@kithrup.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040714164315.18543A-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <40F7E9BA.9090909@mpls.cx>

David Silberstein wrote:

>On Wed, 14 Jul 2004, Scott Schultz wrote:
>
>So, Steve, which scenes do you disapprove of, in general?
>

Although I don't believe he'd done at the time of that Convention -he 
was still just fast forwarding past the dumb bits- he actually produced 
a dubbed down copy with the parts he didn't like removed.  I've just 
received a copy of Directors Cut (which I highly recommend, if only for 
the extra Doc.. Holiday scene, Omaha++) and I'm thinking of rebuilding 
his version adding in the additional scenes from the extended version 
(both of which pass the muster, IMO.)  Also, if your local to 
Minneapolis, and know him, Erik 'Baker' Emery has possession of the 
'Steve Cut' and is probably willing to loan or bring in places.

If I actually build the new tape I'll post to that effect, probably with 
a scene selection guide for those who are interested in the recipe.



From singram at videotron.ca  Fri Jul 16 08:20:24 2004
From: singram at videotron.ca (singram at videotron.ca)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:20:24 -0400
Subject: Dragaeran Westerns?
Message-ID: <c84c2c7865.c7865c84c2@videotron.ca>

Okay, I just received 5 copies of this. I'm pretty sure that's a record.

-Scott Ingram



----- Original Message -----
From: Corwin Brust <corwin at mpls.cx>
Date: Friday, July 16, 2004 10:44 am
Subject: Re: Dragaeran Westerns?

> David Silberstein wrote:
> 
> >On Wed, 14 Jul 2004, Scott Schultz wrote:
> >
> >So, Steve, which scenes do you disapprove of, in general?
> >
> 
> Although I don't believe he'd done at the time of that Convention -
> he 
> was still just fast forwarding past the dumb bits- he actually 
> produced 
> a dubbed down copy with the parts he didn't like removed.  I've 
> just 
> received a copy of Directors Cut (which I highly recommend, if 
> only for 
> the extra Doc.. Holiday scene, Omaha++) and I'm thinking of 
> rebuilding 
> his version adding in the additional scenes from the extended 
> version 
> (both of which pass the muster, IMO.)  Also, if your local to 
> Minneapolis, and know him, Erik 'Baker' Emery has possession of 
> the 
> 'Steve Cut' and is probably willing to loan or bring in places.
> 
> If I actually build the new tape I'll post to that effect, 
> probably with 
> a scene selection guide for those who are interested in the recipe.
> 
> 



From lazarus33pjf at cox.net  Fri Jul 16 10:19:12 2004
From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:19:12 -0700
Subject: Dragaeran Westerns?
In-Reply-To: <c84c2c7865.c7865c84c2@videotron.ca>
References: <c84c2c7865.c7865c84c2@videotron.ca>
Message-ID: <3g3gf0lsbjhhfq2hmme96r2j51ba0019fq@4ax.com>

On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:20:24 -0400, you wrote:

>Okay, I just received 5 copies of this. I'm pretty sure that's a record.
>
>-Scott Ingram
>

My record is, I believe, 32 copies of one message.


>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Corwin Brust <corwin at mpls.cx>
>Date: Friday, July 16, 2004 10:44 am
>Subject: Re: Dragaeran Westerns?
>
>> David Silberstein wrote:
>> 
>> >On Wed, 14 Jul 2004, Scott Schultz wrote:
>> >
>> >So, Steve, which scenes do you disapprove of, in general?
>> >
>> 
>> Although I don't believe he'd done at the time of that Convention -
>> he 
>> was still just fast forwarding past the dumb bits- he actually 
>> produced 
>> a dubbed down copy with the parts he didn't like removed.  I've 
>> just 
>> received a copy of Directors Cut (which I highly recommend, if 
>> only for 
>> the extra Doc.. Holiday scene, Omaha++) and I'm thinking of 
>> rebuilding 
>> his version adding in the additional scenes from the extended 
>> version 
>> (both of which pass the muster, IMO.)  Also, if your local to 
>> Minneapolis, and know him, Erik 'Baker' Emery has possession of 
>> the 
>> 'Steve Cut' and is probably willing to loan or bring in places.
>> 
>> If I actually build the new tape I'll post to that effect, 
>> probably with 
>> a scene selection guide for those who are interested in the recipe.
>> 
>> 



From Gaertk at aol.com  Fri Jul 16 16:22:37 2004
From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 19:22:37 -0400
Subject: Department of Redundancy Department (was: Dragaeran Westerns?)
Message-ID: <307138EA.1A4D54C3.00048EA6@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/16/2004 1:19:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lazarus <lazarus33pjf at cox.net> writes:

>On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:20:24 -0400, you wrote:
>
>> Okay, I just received 5 copies of this. I'm pretty sure 
>> that's a record.
>
> My record is, I believe, 32 copies of one message.

So far I've gotten 3 Corwins, 3 Scotts, and 9 Lazaruses.

Do these posts actually help any?


--KG



From pulmon at comcast.net  Fri Jul 16 21:18:00 2004
From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 00:18:00 -0400
Subject: Department of Redundancy Department (was: Dragaeran Westerns?)
In-Reply-To: <307138EA.1A4D54C3.00048EA6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BD1E20B8.287C%pulmon@comcast.net>




On 7/16/04 7:22 PM, "Gaertk at aol.com" <Gaertk at aol.com> wrote:

> In a message dated 7/16/2004 1:19:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lazarus
> <lazarus33pjf at cox.net> writes:
> 
>> On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:20:24 -0400, you wrote:
>> 
>>> Okay, I just received 5 copies of this. I'm pretty sure
>>> that's a record.
>> 
>> My record is, I believe, 32 copies of one message.
> 
> So far I've gotten 3 Corwins, 3 Scotts, and 9 Lazaruses.
> 
> Do these posts actually help any?
> 
> 
> --KG
> 

Actually, that is "lazari"




From mtiller at ntlworld.com  Sat Jul 17 14:09:56 2004
From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 22:09:56 +0100
Subject: Department of Redundancy Department (was: Dragaeran Westerns?)
In-Reply-To: <BD1E20B8.287C%pulmon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20040717210925.JMYY9394.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@sweetdre123rzw>

 
> From: Kenneth Gorelick [mailto:pulmon at comcast.net] 
> Sent: 17 July 2004 05:18
> 
> Actually, that is "lazari"
> 
> 
When I used to play the original Sid Meier Civilization computer game, if
you had entertainers in a city, the showed up on the screen as a line of
Elvis'es...I took to calling them Elvii.  Before Mark Mandel jumps in, I
know that's not the correct spelling, but it just sounds so good!

My 2 cts.

Cheers

Mark




From dgf at dd-b.net  Sat Jul 17 15:17:02 2004
From: dgf at dd-b.net (dgf at dd-b.net)
Date: 17 Jul 2004 22:17:02 -0000
Subject: Dragaera subscriber list
Message-ID: <20040717221702.19218.qmail@dd-b.net>

abailey (at) micromuse.com (email) Andrew Bailey <abailey (at) micromuse.com> 
abcmm (at) att.net (email) abcmm (at) att.net 
acwest-dragaera (at) craigwest.net (email) "A. Craig West" <acwest-dragaera (at) craigwest.net> 
adia (at) hellug.gr (email) =?iso-8859-7?B?wevd7uHt5PHv8iDE6eHs4e303+Tn8g==?= <adia (at) hellug.gr> 
adia (at) hellug.gr (email) Alexandros Diamantidis <adia (at) hellug.gr> 
adina (at) panix.com (email)
aejoubert (at) hotmail.com (email) "Andrew Joubert" <aejoubert (at) hotmail.com> 
agrajag (at) dragaera.net (email) Jag <agrajag (at) dragaera.net> 
agrelic (at) gmail.com (email) Sean Dilda <agrelic (at) gmail.com> 
aheyman (at) rcn.com (email) "Adam Heyman" <aheyman (at) rcn.com> 
akomins (at) midway.uchicago.edu (email) Arin Komins <akomins (at) midway.uchicago.edu> 
alexx (at) panix.com (email) "Alexander Kay" <alexx (at) panix.com> 
amadandedallas (at) yahoo.com (email) James D'Amadan <amadandedallas (at) yahoo.com> 
amitskaw (at) hotmail.com (email) "James Somebody" <amitskaw (at) hotmail.com> 
andrew.durston (at) smiths-aerospace.com (email) "Durston, Andrew (AGRE)" <andrew.durston (at) smiths-aerospace.com> 
AndrewBarton (at) compuserve.com (digest)
annoying_dude (at) yahoo.com (digest) Matt Smit <annoying_dude (at) yahoo.com> 
anreed (at) wm.edu (email) anreed (at) wm.edu 
asher1978 (at) hotmail.com (email) "asher 1978" <asher1978 (at) hotmail.com> 
asr (at) spnode43.nerdc.ufl.edu (email) asr (at) ufl.edu 
attjen (at) gwu.edu (digest) Matt Jennings <attjen (at) gwu.edu> 
azarule (at) hotmail.com (email) "David Gunderson" <azarule (at) hotmail.com> 
a_englehart (at) cox.net (email) "Anne Englehart" <a_englehart (at) cox.net> 
badgod (at) sonic.net (digest)
ballistica (at) cox.net (email) "Donna" <ballistica (at) cox.net> 
baron_greystone (at) hotmail.com (digest) "Baron Greystone" <baron_greystone (at) hotmail.com> 
Bato001 (at) aol.com (email)
bearnw (at) ix.netcom.com (digest)
bertowud (at) cox.net (email) "Robert Wood" <bertowud (at) cox.net> 
bio_phy (at) hotmail.com (email)
blackbird0 (at) yahoo.com (email) Jeffrey Kiok <blackbird0 (at) yahoo.com> 
bonham15 (at) cox.net (email) "bonham15" <bonham15 (at) cox.net> 
books (at) bofh.com (email) books (at) bofh.com 
bph7 (at) cornell.edu (email) Ben Hiles <bph7 (at) cornell.edu> 
brian.vanskyock (at) zimmer.com (email) "Brian Vanskyock" <brian.vanskyock (at) zimmer.com> 
briandmichelle (at) yahoo.com (email) Brian and Michelle Baskett <briandmichelle (at) yahoo.com>
bryann (at) bryann.net (email) "Bryan Newell" <bryann (at) bryann.net> 
calianng_graves (at) yahoo.com (email) Caliann the Elf <calianng_graves (at) yahoo.com> 
cantatrix (at) hotmail.com (email) "Becky Krause" <cantatrix (at) hotmail.com> 
carl (at) odeon.net (email) "Carl Chada" <carl (at) odeon.net> 
carla.hunt.b (at) oncogene.com (email) "Carla Hunt" <carla.hunt.b (at) oncogene.com> 
carpovita (at) earthlink.net (email) "Rion Bergquist" <carpovita (at) earthlink.net> 
casca913 (at) gbronline.com (email) "Charlie Smith" <casca913 (at) gbronline.com> 
casey (at) the-bat.net (email) <casey (at) the-bat.net> 
chamama (at) cheerful.com (email) "sara chamama" <chamama (at) cheerful.com> 
chaosasj (at) bellsouth.net (email) "Andrew Jones" <chaosasj (at) bellsouth.net> 
charles_sumner (at) harvard.edu (email) charles_sumner (at) harvard.edu 
chris.mclaren (at) ieee.org (email) "Chris McLaren" <chris.mclaren (at) ieee.org> 
Chrisf.Olson (at) sun.com (email) Chris Olson - SunPS <Chrisf.Olson (at) Sun.COM>
chrislee (at) neo.rr.com (email) "chris cunningham" <chrislee (at) neo.rr.com> 
Christopher_M_Kane (at) brown.edu (email)
cnorehad (at) oz.net (email) "Chris Norehad" <cnorehad (at) oz.net> 
corsair (at) concentric.net (email) "Kelly Rhodes" <corsair (at) concentric.net> 
corsairx (at) iinet.net.au (email) Andrew <corsairx (at) iinet.net.au> 
corwin (at) mpls.cx (email) (Corwin Brust) 
crowkart (at) hotmail.com (email) "A Crow" <crowkart (at) hotmail.com> 
daemian_spayde (at) sbcglobal.net (email) Katt Jean <daemian_spayde (at) sbcglobal.net> 
dalvenjah (at) dal.net (email) Dalvenjah FoxFire <dalvenjah (at) DAL.NET> 
dan-tain_ishanti (at) attbi.com (email) "Brad Crawford" <dan-tain_ishanti (at) attbi.com> 
dar (at) horusinc.com (email) "David Rodemaker" <dar (at) horusinc.com> 
dave-lists-dragaera (at) weller-fahy.com (email) "David J. Weller-Fahy" <dave-lists-dragaera (at) weller-fahy.com> 
dave (at) waveridersystems.com (email) "Dave Godwin" <dave (at) waveridersystems.com> 
david (at) mail.crlf.net (email) David Maxwell <david (at) crlf.net> 
davids (at) kithrup.com (email) David Silberstein <davids (at) kithrup.com> 
dd-b (at) dd-b.net (digest) (David Dyer-Bennet) 
dd-b (at) dd-b.net (email) (David Dyer-Bennet) 
den (at) monger.net (email)
dgf (at) dd-b.net (post)
dinlicious (at) gmail.com (email) dinlicious <dinlicious (at) gmail.com> 
don (at) easterlys.com (email) "Don Easterly" <don (at) easterlys.com> 
dr.elmo (at) whiterose.org (email) "Dr. Elmo" <dr.elmo (at) whiterose.org> 
dragaera-kithrup (at) kithrup.com (email)
dragaera (at) juima.org (email) Sander <dragaera (at) juima.org> 
dravenswann (at) gru.net (email) "DravenSwann" <dravenswann (at) gru.net> 
dusty (at) sayersnet.com (email) J A Dusty Sayers <dusty (at) sayersnet.com>
d_levitz (at) msn.com (email) "Daniel Levitz" <D_Levitz (at) msn.com> 
ed (at) edmail.info (email) Ed Lee <ed (at) edmail.info> 
ehahn (at) isochronism.com (email) Edward Hahn <ehahn (at) isochronism.com> 
ejpeterson (at) attbi.com (email)
electriceyebeamabduction (at) hotmail.com (email) "At The Circus With Mommie"
erik (at) debill.org (email) erik (at) debill.org 
eshivak (at) netzero.net (email) "Eric Shivak" <eshivak (at) netzero.net> 
everbard (at) ix.netcom.com (email) "Michael M Jones" <everbard (at) ix.netcom.com> 
faakinridiculous (at) hotmail.com (email) "rogue squadron" <faakinridiculous (at) hotmail.com> 
feaelin (at) kemenel.org (email) "Davis, Iain E." <feaelin (at) kemenel.org> 
feetalsjeez (at) yahoo.com (email) Tim Owen <feetalsjeez (at) yahoo.com> 
fides (at) kludgeco.com (email) Faith Lawrence <fides (at) kludgeco.com> 
fitzrose (at) msn.com (email) "Rosemary Fitzsimons" <fitzrose (at) msn.com> 
flgrendel (at) yahoo.com (email) John Almasi <flgrendel (at) yahoo.com> 
foodgod (at) pobox.com (email) Teddywolf <foodgod (at) pobox.com> 
foolserrand1 (at) hotmail.com (email)
frank (at) exit.com (email) Frank Mayhar <frank (at) exit.com> 
furryjawa (at) yahoo.com (email) David Lish <furryjawa (at) yahoo.com> 
gaertk (at) aol.com (email) Gaertk (at) aol.com 
gaku169 (at) hotmail.com (digest) "Denis Berthelsen" <gaku169 (at) hotmail.com> 
gbrandt (at) tampabayfcu.org (email) Grady Brandt <gbrandt (at) tampabayfcu.org> 
gcanyon (at) inspiredlogic.com (email) Geoff Canyon <gcanyon (at) inspiredlogic.com> 
genji_77 (at) hotmail.com (email) "Mike Smith" <genji_77 (at) hotmail.com> 
GibelMaria (at) aol.com (email) GibelMaria (at) aol.com 
gilligan487 (at) hotmail.com (email) "Erik Deup" <gilligan487 (at) hotmail.com> 
ginni.berger (at) juno.com (email) ginnilee p berger <ginni.berger (at) juno.com> 
gisho (at) puddleofgoo.com (email) "gisho" <gisho (at) puddleofgoo.com> 
glas (at) larp.com (email) Glas <glas (at) larp.com> 
Glenn.Gardner (at) kla-tencor.com (email)
gm_drmallio (at) hotmail.com (email) "Douglass Mallio" <gm_drmallio (at) hotmail.com> 
gnipp (at) hotmail.com (email) "Matthew Slowiak" <gnipp (at) hotmail.com> 
god_of_gnomes (at) hotmail.com (email) "K Horzmann" <god_of_gnomes (at) hotmail.com> 
goldfarb (at) ocf.berkeley.edu (email) (David Goldfarb) 
gomi (at) pollywog.com (post)
gomi (at) speakeasy.net (email) Gomi no Sensei <gomi (at) speakeasy.net> 
graitech (at) cogeco.ca (email) graitech (at) cogeco.ca 
greatcthulhu1 (at) yahoo.com (email) Oscar Rios <greatcthulhu1 (at) yahoo.com> 
greyw01f (at) hotmail.com (email) "Jon Carey" <greyw01f (at) hotmail.com> 
grzm (at) grzm.pp.se (digest) Gunnar Blomberg <grzm (at) grzm.pp.se> 
haerandir (at) hotmail.com (email) "Jesse Thomas" <haerandir (at) hotmail.com> 
hans117 (at) yahoo.com (email) Hans Schweitzer <hans117 (at) yahoo.com> 
harpere (at) gmail.com (email) Elizabeth Harper <harpere (at) gmail.com> 
hats5 (at) cisbec.net (email) "The Lehman's" <hats5 (at) cisbec.net> 
Hereward (at) rogers.com (email) "Gary Russell" <Hereward (at) rogers.com> 
hhertzof (at) panix.com (email) Hilary Hertzoff <hhertzof (at) panix.com> 
holden (at) oddjob.uchicago.edu (digest) Bradford Holden <holden (at) oddjob.uchicago.edu> 
hologram (at) algonet.se (email) Nicklas Andersson <hologram (at) algonet.se> 
holyconelia (at) hotmail.com (email) "william wheeler" <holyconelia (at) hotmail.com> 
howard.brazee (at) cusys.edu (post)
howard (at) brazee.net (email) "Howard Brazee" <howard (at) brazee.net> 
hyrum (at) otherworlds.cx (email) "R. Hyrum Savage" <hyrum (at) otherworlds.cx> 
iambluehearmeroar (at) yahoo.com (email) Blue <iambluehearmeroar (at) yahoo.com> 
ifurita (at) el-hazard.net (email) Ravi Duvvuri <ifurita (at) el-hazard.net> 
igalbraith (at) ozonline.com.au (email) igalbraith (at) ozonline.com.au (Ian Galbraith) 
ijamie (at) sympatico.ca (email) "Ian sympatico" <ijamie (at) sympatico.ca> 
ike (at) manor.org (email) Ike Porter <ike (at) manor.org> 
ikep (at) umbc.edu (email) Ike Porter <ikep (at) umbc.edu> 
incitor (at) whack.org (email) incitor <incitor (at) whack.org> 
j.clendening (at) verizon.net (email) "Verizon" <j.clendening (at) verizon.net> 
J.Millen-99 (at) student.lboro.ac.uk (email) "Jim Millen" <J.Millen-99 (at) student.lboro.ac.uk> 
jackland (at) mail.ru (email) JC <jackland (at) mail.ru> 
jajohns (at) temporalspace.com (email) "Jamie A. Johns" <jajohns (at) temporalspace.com> 
jalaubacker (at) mindspring.com (email) "Jim Laubacker" <jalaubacker (at) mindspring.com> 
jalipaz (at) stanford.edu (email) Julie Alipaz <jalipaz (at) stanford.edu> 
jamesandmary.burbidge (at) sympatico.ca (email) James and Mary Burbidge <jamesandmary.burbidge (at) sympatico.ca>
jbdelong (at) uclink.berkeley.edu (email) Brad DeLong <delong (at) econ.Berkeley.EDU> 
jdbone (at) hotmail.com (email) "Jimmie Bone" <jdbone (at) hotmail.com> 
jeanninenorris (at) yahoo.com (email) Jeannine Norris <jeanninenorris (at) yahoo.com> 
jedijane (at) ev1.net (email) "M. Goepp" <jedijane (at) ev1.net> 
jennalyn (at) intercom.net (email) Jennalyn <jennalyn (at) intercom.net> 
jerry_friedman (at) yahoo.com (email) Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman (at) yahoo.com> 
jetdragon (at) comcast.net (email) Jessica <jetdragon (at) comcast.net> 
jhereg69 (at) earthlink.net (email) Jose Marquez<jhereg69 (at) earthlink.net> 
jimkatz (at) ix.netcom.com (email) Jim Katz <jimkatz (at) ix.netcom.com> 
jjnichol (at) mit.edu (email) Joy Jennifer Nicholson <jjnichol (at) MIT.EDU> 
jlblists (at) eljen.net (email) "Jennifer Barber" <jlblists (at) eljen.net> 
jocelyncassidy (at) hotmail.com (email) "Jocelyn Cassidy" <jocelyncassidy (at) hotmail.com> 
joecrow (at) access4less.net (email) Joe Crow <joecrow (at) access4less.net> 
joelynch (at) sbcglobal.net (digest)
John.Tennyson (at) mckesson.com (email)
Joseph.Bono (at) yale.edu (email)
jot (at) chud.net (post)
jsimons (at) genelco.com (email) "Jim Simons" <jsimons (at) genelco.com> 
jtoth (at) megrez.org (email) Jim Toth <jtoth (at) megrez.org> 
jtrager (at) keyway.net (email) "Trager" <jtrager (at) keyway.net> 
juliette_torres (at) yahoo.com (digest) Juliette Torres <juliette_torres (at) yahoo.com> 
kate.nepveu (at) gmail.com (email) Kate Nepveu <kate.nepveu (at) gmail.com> 
kate (at) mail.browser.net (email) Kate Jones <kate (at) mail.browser.net> 
kcr (at) midsouth.rr.com (email) "Kevin Raybould" <kcr (at) midsouth.rr.com> 
khaavren (at) hotmail.com (email) "Khaavren Castlerock" <khaavren (at) hotmail.com> 
kknolte (at) ecity.net (email) K Kuhn <kknolte (at) ecity.net> 
kkoester (at) email.ers.usda.gov (email) Ken Koester <kkoester (at) email.ers.usda.gov> 
kmcd (at) uclink.berkeley.edu (email) Kelley McDonald <kmcd (at) uclink.berkeley.edu> 
KnightOfInsanos (at) aol.com (email)
knots4kcs (at) yahoo.com (email) Kenneth Stone <knots4kcs (at) yahoo.com> 
kpadgett1 (at) cox.net (email) "Ken Padgett" <kpadgett1 (at) cox.net> 
KReaves789 (at) aol.com (email) KReaves789 (at) aol.com 
kublakhan73 (at) hotmail.com (email) "Jeremy Tassoff" <kublakhan73 (at) hotmail.com> 
kunimon (at) ya.com (email) "=?iso-8859-1?B?UmFt824gUGXxYQ==?=" <kunimon (at) ya.com> 
kyonne (at) shaw.ca (digest) Joy Mainer <kyonne (at) shaw.ca> 
kyonne (at) shaw.ca (digest) kyonne <kyonne (at) shaw.ca> 
kyonne (at) shaw.ca (email) Joy Mainer <kyonne (at) shaw.ca> 
kyonne (at) shaw.ca (email) kyonne <kyonne (at) shaw.ca> 
lady_gh0stw0lf (at) yahoo.com (digest)
lady_mage16 (at) yahoo.com (email)
lairdb (at) email.com (email) "L. Broadfield" <lairdb (at) email.com> 
Lathia (at) nwlink.com (email) "Lathia" <Lathia (at) nwlink.com> 
laurao (at) ix.netcom.com (digest) "Laura Osgood" <laurao (at) ix.netcom.com> 
lazarus33pjf (at) cox.net (email) lazarus <lazarus33pjf (at) cox.net> 
linden (at) uchicago.edu (email) AnnaLinden Weller <linden (at) uchicago.edu> 
lister (at) insaneninjahero.com (email) Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert <lister (at) insaneninjahero.com> 
ljenab (at) sunflower.com (email) "Lawrence Jenab" <ljenab (at) sunflower.com> 
lmbrassard (at) yahoo.com (email) Laurie Brassard <lmbrassard (at) yahoo.com> 
log0n5150 (at) hotmail.com (email) "Jeff Gibbons" <Log0n5150 (at) hotmail.com> 
loki (at) twwol.dyndns.org (digest) Loki <loki (at) twwol.dyndns.org> 
lydy (at) demesne.com (email) Lydia Nickerson <lydy (at) demesne.com> 
Lys (at) charter.net (email) "Lys Swift" <Lys (at) charter.net> 
MaidensPowrSlave (at) aol.com (email) MaidensPowrSlave (at) aol.com 
mak (at) akamai.com (email) Marty Kagan <mak (at) akamai.com> 
mam (at) theworld.com (email) Mark A Mandel <mam (at) theworld.com> 
mamandel (at) unagi.cis.upenn.edu (post)
mark_englehart (at) cox.net (email)
marni (at) cfl.rr.com (digest) "marni on Roadrunner" <marni (at) cfl.rr.com> 
marty (at) kaganite.com (email) Marty Kagan <marty (at) kaganite.com> 
matthew (at) infodancer.org (email) Matthew Hunter <matthew (at) infodancer.org> 
mattonim (at) engineering.ucsb.edu (email) Michael Mattoni <mattonim (at) engineering.ucsb.edu> 
mauriziopaoluzi (at) inwind.it (email) Maurizio Paoluzi <mauriziopaoluzi (at) inwind.it> 
melalvai (at) kemenel.org (email) "Rachel L. Ruhlen" <melalvai (at) kemenel.org> 
melalvai (at) kemenel.org (email) Melalvai <melalvai (at) kemenel.org> 
mendo666 (at) hotmail.com (email) "Ian Edwards" <mendo666 (at) hotmail.com> 
mflanigan (at) carolina.rr.com (email) Mike Flanigan <Thomarus (at) carolina.rr.com> 
mia_mcdavid (at) comcast.net (email)
michaelangelo (at) tripp-russo.com (email)
michi (at) mercury.co.il (email) Michi Kossowsky <michi (at) mercury.co.il> 
mike.melton (at) cox.net (email) "Mike Melton" <mike.melton (at) cox.net> 
mike (at) plokta.com (email)
Mirsathia (at) comcast.net (email)
misao (at) shaw.ca (email) Misao <misao (at) shaw.ca> 
Mistykalia (at) aol.com (digest) Mistykalia (at) aol.com 
mixtli (at) ix.netcom.com (email) "Ian Warner" <mixtli (at) ix.netcom.com> 
mkbister (at) charter.net (email) "Mary Bister" <mkbister (at) charter.net> 
mklahn (at) mac.com (email) Matthew Klahn <mklahn (at) mac.com> 
mneme (at) hagbard.io.com (post)
mneme (at) io.com (email) Joshua Kronengold <mneme (at) io.com> 
moghan_david (at) yahoo.com (email) Robert Opramolla <moghan_david (at) yahoo.com> 
moodygrrl (at) earthlink.net (email) "Lori Reeder" <moodygrrl (at) earthlink.net> 
moonblossom (at) dodgenet.com (email) "Dale Rippke" <moonblossom (at) dodgenet.com> 
moonhunt_ (at) hotmail.com (email) "Guess Who" <moonhunt_ (at) hotmail.com> 
mr1 (at) rcosta.com (email) "Michele Riccio" <mr1 (at) rcosta.com> 
mrichard (at) efn.org (email) Richard <mrichard (at) efn.org> 
ms_kate (at) io.com (email)
mtiller (at) ntlworld.com (email) "Mark Tiller" <mtiller (at) ntlworld.com> 
mvillar2424 (at) earthlink.net (email) "Marcos Villaroman" <mvillar2424 (at) earthlink.net> 
nadilday (at) yahoo.com (email) Nathan Dilday <nadilday (at) yahoo.com> 
naraku (at) comcast.net (email)
NarnRebel (at) aol.com (digest)
nathan (at) player.org (email) "Nathan P. Bardsley" <nathan (at) player.org> 
noam.izenberg (at) jhuapl.edu (email) "Izenberg, Noam" <Noam.Izenberg (at) jhuapl.edu> 
noan4 (at) hotmail.com (email) "Jeff Drake" <noan4 (at) hotmail.com> 
nope (at) galon.org.il (email) Nope <nope (at) galon.org.il> 
nstacy (at) cinci.rr.com (email) "Noah Stacy" <nstacy (at) cinci.rr.com> 
nthuleen (at) students.wisc.edu (email) Nancy Thuleen <nthuleen (at) students.wisc.edu> 
ojen_ishii (at) yahoo.com (email) jennifer rowley <ojen_ishii (at) yahoo.com> 
omaha (at) mpls.cx (email) Felix Strates <omaha (at) mpls.cx> 
Orchidkngt (at) aol.com (digest) Orchidkngt (at) aol.com 
otaking (at) cwru.edu (email) James Vogel <otaking (at) cwru.edu> 
paul (at) finalchallenge.net (email) "Paul Hancock" <paul (at) finalchallenge.net> 
pereillo (at) optonline.net (email)
peter (at) maranci.net (email) "Peter Maranci" <peter (at) maranci.net> 
pgranzeau (at) cox.net (email) "Peter H. Granzeau" <pgranzeau (at) cox.net> 
philiph (at) slac.stanford.edu (email) Philip Hart <philiph (at) SLAC.Stanford.EDU> 
phoenix (at) ugcs.caltech.edu (email) Damien Sullivan <phoenix (at) ugcs.caltech.edu> 
Phoenixrave (at) sc.rr.com (digest) "Robert Pierce" <Phoenixrave (at) sc.rr.com> 
phoenixwolf27 (at) yahoo.com (email) "Michael Wolf \(XBOX\)" <mwolf (at) microsoft.com> 
pistole (at) alumni.utexas.net (email) "Richard H. Pistole" <pistole (at) alumni.utexas.net> 
pkeck (at) storm.he.net (email) pkeck <pkeck (at) paulkeck.com> 
platedlizard (at) earthlink.net (email) "Gloria Carr" <platedlizard (at) earthlink.net> 
polstein (at) wsvn.com (email) "Olstein, Phillip" <polstein (at) wsvn.com> 
poptest (at) ghytred.com (email) "Simon Smith" <poptest (at) ghytred.com> 
porthos (at) calweb.com (email) John Hutton <porthos (at) calweb.com> 
PQuigleyII (at) aol.com (email) PQuigleyII (at) aol.com 
Profesor_Bacterio (at) ono.com (email) "FAC" <Profesor_Bacterio (at) ono.com> 
pulmon (at) comcast.net (email) Kenneth Gorelick <pulmon (at) comcast.net> 
qag1964 (at) excite.com (email) "Quentin" <qag1964 (at) excite.com> 
Raellew (at) aol.com (email)
rakehell (at) usa.net (email) G Wilhelm <rakehell (at) usa.net> 
ray (at) madrabbit.org (email) ray (at) madrabbit.org (Ray Lee) 
rcarson (at) rcarson.com (digest) "Reid Carson" <rcarson (at) rcarson.com> 
rct9911 (at) comcast.net (email) "Rebecca" <rct9911 (at) comcast.net> 
reader (at) estebandito.info (email) Stephan Leicht <reader (at) estebandito.info> 
redmeerkat (at) earthlink.net (email) Sean Hayden <redmeerkat (at) earthlink.net> 
ReVibe68 (at) aol.com (email)
rfzabick (at) punkgrok.org (digest) Roman Zabicki <rfzabick (at) punkgrok.org> 
RHRahl1 (at) aol.com (email) RHRahl1 (at) aol.com 
rickc (at) silcom.com (email) "Richard Cunningham" <rickc (at) silcom.com> 
righel (at) email.msn.com (post)
righel (at) msn.com (email) "Rosemary Ighel" <righel (at) msn.com> 
rislyn23 (at) hotmail.com (email) "Rislyn Feruch" <rislyn23 (at) hotmail.com> 
rmckenzi (at) dti.net (digest) Brookes McKenzie <rmckenzi (at) dti.net> 
rone (at) ennui.org (email) rone (at) ennui.org (figmentality) 
ross1 (at) rochester.rr.com (email) Ross Stuckless Jr <ross1 (at) rochester.rr.com> 
rst_98 (at) hotmail.com (email) "RST ------" <rst_98 (at) hotmail.com> 
ryan (at) wonko.com (email) Ryan Grove <ryan (at) wonko.com> 
s.schwenk (at) wtal.de (email) "Sebastian Schwenk" <s.schwenk (at) wtal.de> 
s1burns (at) ucsd.edu (email) "Shawn" <s1burns (at) ucsd.edu> 
saint_erythros (at) lameassbitch.com (email) "M J" <saint_erythros (at) lameassbitch.com> 
Sams0n (at) aol.com (email)
Scott.Burrington (at) getronics.com (email)
scott (at) cjhunter.com (email) "Scott Schultz" <scott (at) cjhunter.com> 
scottfweintraub (at) gmail.com (digest)
scs (at) ans.net (post)
scs (at) di.org (email)
scs (at) lokkur.dexter.mi.us (post)
scs (at) uu.net (post)
seanstarratt1 (at) msn.com (email) "Sean Starratt" <seanstarratt1 (at) msn.com> 
seitherin (at) houston.rr.com (email) "Seitherin" <seitherin (at) houston.rr.com> 
severian (at) webone.com.au (email) Jonathan Pelling <severian (at) webone.com.au> 
shad (at) muegge.org (email) "Shad Muegge" <shad (at) muegge.org> 
shafedog205555-brustfan (at) yahoo.com (email) S SHafer <shafedog205555-brustfan (at) yahoo.com> 
shannon3d (at) yahoo.com (email) Shannon Wimberly <shannon3d (at) yahoo.com> 
simbelmyne (at) softhome.net (email) Emily Frawley <simbelmyne (at) softhome.net> 
singram (at) videotron.ca (email) "Katherine Britt" <kbritt (at) videotron.ca> 
sirchuck (at) macomb.com (email) John Mietus <sirchuck (at) macomb.com> 
sjwerbin (at) epix.net (digest)
skzb (at) dreamcafe.com (email) (Steven Brust) 
slhalter (at) slhalter.com (email) Steven Halter <slhalter (at) slhalter.com> 
slothman (at) amurgsval.org (email) Max Rible <slothman (at) amurgsval.org> 
smed51 (at) yahoo.com (digest) Smed <smed51 (at) yahoo.com> 
smoosmang (at) t-online.de (email) smoosmang (at) t-online.de (Sven Moosmang) 
Spamme13 (at) aol.com (digest) Spamme13 (at) aol.com 
spiderman92 (at) comcast.net (email)
sraun (at) fireopal.org (email) Scott Raun <sraun (at) fireopal.org> 
Starshadw (at) aol.com (email)
stepheninhouston (at) ireland.com (digest) "stephen garvey" <stepheninhouston (at) ireland.com> 
steve.burnap (at) gmail.com (email) Steve Burnap <steve.burnap (at) gmail.com> 
stikjok (at) hotmail.com (email) "Dave Cooper" <stikjok (at) hotmail.com> 
stlatos (at) yahoo.com (email) Sean Whalen <stlatos (at) yahoo.com> 
tackygoldring (at) netscape.net (email) tacky <tackygoldring (at) netscape.net> 
taltos07 (at) earthlink.net (email) "Curtis Humes" <taltos07 (at) earthlink.net> 
tatters (at) newsguy.com (email) Derek Tattersall <tatters (at) newsguy.com> 
terrick (at) cox.net (email) "ryan" <terrick (at) cox.net> 
teza (at) rupture.net (email) Teza <teza (at) rupture.net> 
tfoster118 (at) comcast.net (email) Travis Foster <tfoster118 (at) comcast.net> 
THA2112 (at) aol.com (email) THA2112 (at) aol.com 
theancient (at) mindspring.com (email) "Tom Miller" <theancient (at) mindspring.com> 
thefr0g (at) hotmail.com (email) "The Fr0g" <thefr0g (at) hotmail.com> 
thepsychosmurf (at) hotmail.com (email) "Chris Sullins" <thepsychosmurf (at) hotmail.com> 
thesteve19 (at) hotmail.com (email) "Steve R." <thesteve19 (at) hotmail.com> 
tiassa (at) xmission.com (email) Megan Schreiber <tiassa (at) xmission.com> 
TimN (at) rcn.com (email)
timothypaxtonowen (at) hotmail.com (email) "Timothy Owen" <timothypaxtonowen (at) hotmail.com> 
tky1 (at) rcn.com (email) tky1 (at) rcn.com (Thomas Yan) 
tlinkenback (at) cox.net (digest) "Tom Linkenback" <tlinkenback (at) cox.net> 
tmer (at) eudoramail.com (email) "Barbara Baj" <tmer (at) eudoramail.com> 
toubib21 (at) yahoo.com (email) Toubib <toubib21 (at) yahoo.com> 
trevor (at) fiatal.net (email) Trevor Fiatal <trevor (at) seven.com> 
trevorsensei (at) yahoo.com (email) trevor laughlin <trevorsensei (at) yahoo.com> 
tsarren (at) alyra.org (email) Kat <tsarren (at) alyra.org> 
tyday (at) phantomemail.com (email) <tyday (at) phantomemail.com> 
T_Johnson (at) speakeasy.net (email)
umbraenoctis (at) hotmail.com (email) "James Griffin" <umbraenoctis (at) hotmail.com> 
unhatched (at) hotmail.com (email) "Denis Richard" <unhatched (at) hotmail.com> 
unitcancellation (at) hotmail.com (email) "Alex Nixon" <unitcancellation (at) hotmail.com> 
usagigoya (at) hotmail.com (email) "Steve Hubbell" <usagigoya (at) hotmail.com> 
vaklam (at) comcast.net (email) Brian Cooksey <vaklam (at) comcast.net> 
valerie (at) drizzle.com (email) <valerie (at) drizzle.com> 
veate (at) yahoo.com (digest) "Ms. Helle" <veate (at) yahoo.com> 
vendersleighc (at) yahoo.com (email) Ven <vendersleighc (at) yahoo.com> 
vidroth (at) hotmail.com (digest) "Chris Bisanar" <vidroth (at) hotmail.com> 
vtaltos (at) earthlink.net (email) "Malcolm" <vtaltos (at) earthlink.net> 
walshm (at) ipfw.edu (email) "Matthew Walsh" <walshm (at) ipfw.edu> 
wamydia23 (at) yahoo.com (email) wamydia <wamydia23 (at) yahoo.com> 
warbi (at) warbi.net (email) "warbi" <warbi (at) warbi.net> 
warlord (at) dragon.com (email) "Warlord" <warlord (at) dragon.com> 
wayne.wagenaar (at) rogers.com (email) Wayne Wagenaar <wayne.wagenaar (at) rogers.com> 
willm (at) emailme.com.au (email) "Will Marshall" <will (at) emailme.com.au> 
wmo+dragaera (at) rebma.pro-ns.net (email) "Bill O'Hanlon" <wmo (at) rebma.pro-ns.net> 
xmasberry (at) mail.com (email) "holly christmas" <xmasberry (at) mail.com> 
yaga (at) berkano.pair.com (email) yaga (at) berkano.pair.com 
yhcrana13 (at) hotmail.com (email) "A. Nonymous" <yhcrana13 (at) hotmail.com> 
yukio_toko (at) yahoo.com (email) yukiotoko imp-thing <yukio_toko (at) yahoo.com> 
zaphod (at) charter.net (email) "Greg Schwartz" <zaphod (at) charter.net> 
zarkon (at) illrepute.org (email) John Klein <zarkon (at) illrepute.org> 
zizban (at) adelphia.net (email) Chris Turkel <zizban (at) adelphia.net> 


From rct9911 at comcast.net  Sat Jul 17 18:23:17 2004
From: rct9911 at comcast.net (Rebecca)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:23:17 -0500
Subject: Department of Redundancy Department (was: Dragaeran Westerns?)
References: <20040717210925.JMYY9394.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@sweetdre123rzw>
Message-ID: <001c01c46c65$d1b45690$6601a8c0@BOB>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Tiller" <mtiller at ntlworld.com>
To: "'Kenneth Gorelick'" <pulmon at comcast.net>; <Gaertk at aol.com>;
<dragaera at dragaera.info>
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 4:09 PM
Subject: RE: Department of Redundancy Department (was: Dragaeran Westerns?)


>
> > From: Kenneth Gorelick [mailto:pulmon at comcast.net]
> > Sent: 17 July 2004 05:18
> >
> > Actually, that is "lazari"
> >
> >
> When I used to play the original Sid Meier Civilization computer game, if
> you had entertainers in a city, the showed up on the screen as a line of
> Elvis'es...I took to calling them Elvii.  Before Mark Mandel jumps in, I
> know that's not the correct spelling, but it just sounds so good!
>
> My 2 cts.
>
> Cheers
>
> Mark



If we're going to be using badly derived Latin endings, why not use the real
thing?

 The plural of the singular 3rd declension genitive noun ending -is is -um.
Even though Elvis is not genitive, Elvum sounds much cooler than Elvii.

Not to get off topic or anything.

Rebecca



From dd-b at dd-b.net  Sat Jul 17 19:48:38 2004
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:48:38 -0500
Subject: Department of Redundancy Department
In-Reply-To: <001c01c46c65$d1b45690$6601a8c0@BOB> (rct9911@comcast.net's
 message of "Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:23:17 -0500")
References: <20040717210925.JMYY9394.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@sweetdre123rzw>
	<001c01c46c65$d1b45690$6601a8c0@BOB>
Message-ID: <m2hds6t4hl.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>

"Rebecca" <rct9911 at comcast.net> writes:

> If we're going to be using badly derived Latin endings, why not use
> the real thing?

Silly question.  People might not be able to distinguish them from the
real thing, and hence wouldn't know we were using badly-derived fake
latin endings; thus ruining the whole performance.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From haerandir at hotmail.com  Sun Jul 18 05:18:19 2004
From: haerandir at hotmail.com (Jesse Thomas)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 12:18:19 +0000
Subject: Elvii
Message-ID: <BAY9-F15pTfCYels0FN00025b88@hotmail.com>

On Sat, 17 Jul 2004  David Dyer-Bennet <dd-b at dd-b.net> wrote:
>
>Silly question.  People might not be able to distinguish them from the
>real thing, and hence wouldn't know we were using badly-derived fake
>latin endings; thus ruining the whole performance.

Plus, Elvii is already 'accepted usage' in certain circles.  Do a search on 
'Flying Elvii' sometime.

Jesse

"Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance by
blowing stuff up." - B. Potemkin

_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar ? get it now! 
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/



From howard at brazee.net  Sun Jul 18 14:39:23 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:39:23 -0600
Subject: Chest pains
Message-ID: <000701c46d0f$b1cf5af0$b07ba8c0@Dad133>


I had a pain below my sternum the last couple of weeks.  I was able to run
normally, I ran 1? miles 3 times, and played a couple of rounds of golf
carrying my bag with plenty of energy to spare.   But since I had a heart
attack in the past, I thought I would get an EKG.

Kaiser said no way - and sent me to the hospital, where they took an EKG and
blood tests with no sign that I had a heart attack.   But they didn't know
why I had that pain so they looked into my heart and put in 6 more stents.
Apparently I was real close to having a major heart attack.  (While this was
happening, my wife's cousin had a heart attack at a stoplight and died).

It wasn't a good night, and I am still hurting pretty badly, partly due to
blood pooling near my groin, and part what I thought was my heart.

My first attack did not have classic heart attack symptoms.  This pain is
the first I have felt like it and may be coincidental.   Which means I
really didn't have any clue that I needed to go to the hospital.




From yaga at yaga-ysgs.com  Sun Jul 18 19:22:58 2004
From: yaga at yaga-ysgs.com (Pb Sanderson)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 22:22:58 -0400
Subject: Piro's New Career, w. minor SL spoiler -- Thoughts?
Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.1.20040718222254.01eb0ec0@mail147.pair.com>

First, the Please-don't-flame-me disclaimer : I've been afk from the list 
for a while now, so my apologies if this has been discussed already -- ran 
a couple of relevant key-word searches, but couldn't find the following 
discussion if there was one. So...question is below


MINORS SPOILERS IN QUESTION  BELOW:
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Having just re-read  SL, I found myself wondering about Piro and Ibronka's 
career(s) subsequent to Paarfi's final note that they now live somewhere in 
Adrilanka; it seems to me that both are excellent candidates for the 
Jhereg.    They are, after all, ex-highway men, socially well connected, 
and have to maintain themselves somehow.  (This might also apply to Roaana 
and the rest of the band, for that matter, save he who joined the 
Guards)  Indeed, it left me asking Why wouldn't they join the Jhereg?

Taking this notion to the extreme, I found myself wondering...has Demon's 
identity been trully sussed?

Thoughts?



--
For some the fairest thing on this dark earth is Thermopylae,
and Spartan phalanxes low'ring lances to die -- after Sappho



From charles_sumner at harvard.edu  Mon Jul 19 07:11:39 2004
From: charles_sumner at harvard.edu (charles_sumner at harvard.edu)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:11:39 -0400
Subject: Piro's New Career, w. minor SL spoiler -- Thoughts?
In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.1.20040718222254.01eb0ec0@mail147.pair.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040719100007.03548270@camail2.harvard.edu>

At 10:22 PM 7/18/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>First, the Please-don't-flame-me disclaimer : I've been afk from the list 
>for a while now, so my apologies if this has been discussed already -- ran 
>a couple of relevant key-word searches, but couldn't find the following 
>discussion if there was one. So...question is below
>
>
>MINORS SPOILERS IN QUESTION  BELOW:
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>Having just re-read  SL, I found myself wondering about Piro and Ibronka's 
>career(s) subsequent to Paarfi's final note that they now live somewhere 
>in Adrilanka; it seems to me that both are excellent candidates for the 
>Jhereg.    They are, after all, ex-highway men, socially well connected, 
>and have to maintain themselves somehow.  (This might also apply to Roaana 
>and the rest of the band, for that matter, save he who joined the 
>Guards)  Indeed, it left me asking Why wouldn't they join the Jhereg?
>
>Taking this notion to the extreme, I found myself wondering...has Demon's 
>identity been trully sussed?

I jokingly asked this question after LoCB and had it pointed out that there 
are references to the Demon being part of the organization prior to the 
Interregnum.  Vlad's comments on his age also point to him being 
significantly older than Piro.

Alexx's timeline <http://www.panix.com/~alexx/dragtime.html> has Piro being 
born about 145 years into the Interregnum and the Demon probably being born 
something like 300 years before the Interregnum began (and taking a seat on 
the Jhereg council shortly after the Interregnum ended).  One the right 
hand, there's nothing that says that Vlad couldn't be a poor judge of how 
old a Dragaeran really is (and hardships may cause Piro to look older than 
he is).  On the left hand, it's unlikely that Piro could rise through the 
ranks of the Jhereg quickly enough to get a council seat when the Demon 
supposedly did.

So, it's unlikely, but certainly not impossible.  However, I'd think that 
if the Demon was the son of the Captain of the Phoenix Guards it would 
hardly be something that he'd be able to keep quiet.


Charley Sumner

"They've hid the information in plain sight by disguising it as a web page."
           - Gunsmith Cats



From erik at debill.org  Mon Jul 19 09:13:13 2004
From: erik at debill.org (erik at debill.org)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:13:13 -0500
Subject: Piro's New Career, w. minor SL spoiler -- Thoughts?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040719100007.03548270@camail2.harvard.edu>
References: <6.0.1.1.1.20040718222254.01eb0ec0@mail147.pair.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040719100007.03548270@camail2.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <20040719161313.GA28342@debill.org>

On Mon, Jul 19, 2004 at 10:11:39AM -0400, charles_sumner at harvard.edu wrote:
> At 10:22 PM 7/18/2004 -0400, you wrote:
> >First, the Please-don't-flame-me disclaimer : I've been afk from the list 
> >for a while now, so my apologies if this has been discussed already -- ran 
> >a couple of relevant key-word searches, but couldn't find the following 
> >discussion if there was one. So...question is below
> >
> >
> >MINORS SPOILERS IN QUESTION  BELOW:
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> >.
> he is).  On the left hand, it's unlikely that Piro could rise through the 
> ranks of the Jhereg quickly enough to get a council seat when the Demon 
> supposedly did.

Are you forgetting Mellar?  10 years from joining to council seat.
Very unusual, yes, but it HAS been done.

Vlad's age estimate probably rules it out, though.  I can't see him
being THAT far off.


Erik

-- 
Well I'm walking through the sand
In the desert of my mind
And I don't remember what it was
That I came here to find
  -- Sister Machine Gun "Alone"


From zizban at adelphia.net  Mon Jul 19 09:22:31 2004
From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:22:31 -0400
Subject: Piro's New Career, w. minor SL spoiler -- Thoughts?
In-Reply-To: <20040719161313.GA28342@debill.org>
References: <6.0.1.1.1.20040718222254.01eb0ec0@mail147.pair.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040719100007.03548270@camail2.harvard.edu> <20040719161313.GA28342@debill.org>
Message-ID: <D5698A9D-D99F-11D8-923B-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net>


On Jul 19, 2004, at 12:13 PM, erik at debill.org wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 19, 2004 at 10:11:39AM -0400, charles_sumner at harvard.edu 
> wrote:
>> At 10:22 PM 7/18/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>>> First, the Please-don't-flame-me disclaimer : I've been afk from the 
>>> list
>>> for a while now, so my apologies if this has been discussed already 
>>> -- ran
>>> a couple of relevant key-word searches, but couldn't find the 
>>> following
>>> discussion if there was one. So...question is below
>>>
>>>
>>> MINORS SPOILERS IN QUESTION  BELOW:
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>> he is).  On the left hand, it's unlikely that Piro could rise through 
>> the
>> ranks of the Jhereg quickly enough to get a council seat when the 
>> Demon
>> supposedly did.
>
> Are you forgetting Mellar?  10 years from joining to council seat.
> Very unusual, yes, but it HAS been done.
>
> Vlad's age estimate probably rules it out, though.  I can't see him
> being THAT far off.
>
>
> Erik

While I'm inclined to agree, you can't rule out Vlad being wrong. He 
has been before. He's not the most trust worthy narrator.



From davids at Kithrup.COM  Mon Jul 19 11:47:38 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:47:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Piro's New Career, w. minor SL spoiler -- Thoughts?
In-Reply-To: <D5698A9D-D99F-11D8-923B-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040719113226.18996A-100000@kithrup.com>

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004, Chris Turkel wrote:

>
>On Jul 19, 2004, at 12:13 PM, erik at debill.org wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jul 19, 2004 at 10:11:39AM -0400, charles_sumner at harvard.edu 
>> wrote:
>>> At 10:22 PM 7/18/2004 -0400, you wrote:

>>>> First, the Please-don't-flame-me disclaimer : I've been afk
>>>> from the list for a while now, so my apologies if this has
>>>> been discussed already -- ran a couple of relevant key-word
>>>> searches, but couldn't find the following discussion if there
>>>> was one. So...question is below
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> MINORS SPOILERS IN QUESTION  BELOW:
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>> he is).  On the left hand, it's unlikely that Piro could rise through 
>>> the ranks of the Jhereg quickly enough to get a council seat when the 
>>> Demon supposedly did.
>>
>> Are you forgetting Mellar?  10 years from joining to council seat.
>> Very unusual, yes, but it HAS been done.
>>
>> Vlad's age estimate probably rules it out, though.  I can't see him
>> being THAT far off.
>>
>
>While I'm inclined to agree, you can't rule out Vlad being wrong. He 
>has been before. He's not the most trust worthy narrator.
>

But even if the Demon were the right age, the question arises:  Why
would Piro join the Jhereg?  For me, the more important factor was
the fact that he's the son of the equivalent of the county governor
and the chief of police, and he's friends with the current ruler
(in Vlad's time).

He's received an official pardon for his criminal career.  Given
that the conflict with his father which caused him to take up that
criminal career has been ameliorated, I don't see any reason why he
would take up a *new* criminal career.  He started out with wealth
and privilege, and now has that again.

The only way it would work is if Paarfi gave us a completely
whitewashed depiction of his character.  Only someone a lot colder,
nastier, greedier, and more ambitious than the Piro as depicted in 
/The Viscount of Adrilankha/ would join the Jhereg and rise rapidly
to a seat on the Council.



From casey at the-bat.net  Mon Jul 19 13:04:42 2004
From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:04:42 -0400
Subject: Piro's New Career, w. minor SL spoiler -- Thoughts?
Message-ID: <mailman.1.1157398838.1952.dragaera@dragaera.info>

David Silberstein opined:
> >>>> MINORS SPOILERS IN QUESTION  BELOW:
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> >>>> .
> 
> The only way it would work is if Paarfi gave us a completely
> whitewashed depiction of his character.  Only someone a lot colder,
> nastier, greedier, and more ambitious than the Piro as depicted in 
> /The Viscount of Adrilankha/ would join the Jhereg and rise rapidly
> to a seat on the Council.

I'd have to agree.  I'd expect to find Piro in some diplomatic/espionage
position working for his old friend and Empress.



From davids at Kithrup.COM  Mon Jul 19 12:04:26 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:04:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: An amusing idea about Zerika IV
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040719114853.18996B-100000@kithrup.com>

It was been mentioned in /Orca/ that Zerika had the odd habit of
disappearing now and again, a few days at a time.  It's possible,
of course, that nothing is going on more unusual than the Empress
taking a bit of a breather, probably with her lover.

However, I was thinking about Devera, and I found myself wondering
if perhaps Devera was taking Zerika with her on jaunts through time
to find young Phoenixes to be persuaded to be relocated into the
future, thus rebuilding the House.

Just a bit of pararectal ideation.  We may learn more in 
_ Tiassa _ / _ Dzur _ / _ {whatever} _.  Or we may not.




From singram at videotron.ca  Mon Jul 19 13:25:26 2004
From: singram at videotron.ca (singram at videotron.ca)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 16:25:26 -0400
Subject: Piro's New Career, w. minor SL spoiler -- Thoughts?
Message-ID: <ec4faec8a8.ec8a8ec4fa@videotron.ca>

*Non-spoiler warning*





















Upon successive re-rereadings of the mailing list and Mr. Brust's Vladology, I came to realize that:

-Mario is Piro, 
-Cawti is Kragar,
-The Demon is the dark side of Zerika instantiated through the power of the orb and transported back in time by Devera.
-Vlad is Bink.

It will be revealed that a phoenix flew overhead when Vlad's son was born, thus making him the one true human/phoenix hybrid, and bearing the soul of Zerika's lover will spawn a new population of Phoenix human/Dragaeran hybrids.  

Mario/Piro will slay the god of opposites, granting him the power to return the dead to life. And he will go back in time, stabbing the corpses of long-dead phoenixes, Thus restoring the phoenix line.

Cawti/Kragar, using her/his powers of sneakiness, will slip away, escaping the notice of the universe, and travel to Earth, 2004. She'll witness the GOP in action, realize that things could be a lot worse, and return home a loyal subject of the empire.

Vlad kills the Evil Magician Trent and every lunar cycle his wife rejoins the Teckla rebellion.



From scott at cjhunter.com  Mon Jul 19 13:44:23 2004
From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:44:23 -0700
Subject: An amusing idea about Zerika IV
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040719114853.18996B-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <278d01c46dd1$32c329e0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>

> However, I was thinking about Devera, and I found myself 
> wondering if perhaps Devera was taking Zerika with her on 
> jaunts through time to find young Phoenixes to be persuaded 
> to be relocated into the future, thus rebuilding the House.

I tend to think of Devera as an in-joke, rather than a character in her own
right. We don't really know anything about her personality or her
motiviations. The Demon Goddess might send Devera on an errand like the one
described, but then she might as well do it herself as entrust it to a
child. 

To complicate such things, if Zerika has a patron goddes it's probably NOT
Verra, so her own Goddess ought to be the one taking care of things like
insuring that the House doesn't vanish utterly. Then again, Laszlo worships
Verra IIRC, so maybe that's one of the things that he and Zerika have in
common.

For rebuilding the House, I think a more likely solution may lie in the
field of genetics. Some possibilities:

1) Aliera (we'll use her to represent the field of trained geneticists)
discovers a way to clone a male Phoenix from DNA; Zerika's or a preserved
sample of someone else. Jenoine technology might be involved. Would Aliera
WANT to do that? Good question. She backed her father in his bid to destroy
the cycle because he was her father. I'd say it's not entirely clear what
her feelings would be about restoring it. (Certainly, the metaphysical model
of the Cycle in the Paths of the Dead is intact, which implies that
SOMETHING will happen to correct the Empire as the incarnation of it.)

1a) Aliera finds the original Jenoine labs and reproduces the experiments
that created the first Phoenix.

2) Given what we know of Dragaeran culture outside of the Empire, it seems
reasonable to assume that they don't have the program of strict racial
purity that you find in the Empire. It's possible, through simple random
chance, that a pure or nearly-pure blooded male Phoenix could be born from
Elde Island or Greenaire stock. It might be interesting to see how such an
occurance played out in the courts when it was was discovered.

3) A male Phoenix is recovered from Elsewhere. Time travel falls into this
category, though I'm not really thrilled by the concept. I'd be more
receptive to the idea of finding him trapped in another dimension (through
some magical mishap, no doubt)  using Morrolan's windows.

4) Combine all of the above and stir in some Issola - Vlad and Company find
some excuse to travel back to the Jenoine world, where they find that the
Jenoine themselves have begun re-creating their old experiments, perhaps in
a bid to create a new version of Dragaera with a few more controls built-in.
After various adventures and some buckling of swashes, the end result is
that Vlad comes home with a Phoenix husband for Zerika,and maybe even a few
in-laws to go with him.

Of course, I've probably ruined all chance of that story getting published
by posting the idea in a public forum, but I suppose that if it's a REALLY
good idea that Steve will find a way to write it despite that. ;-)






From scott at cjhunter.com  Mon Jul 19 13:59:27 2004
From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:59:27 -0700
Subject: Who is Zerika's current lover?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040719114853.18996B-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <27a201c46dd3$4df3b200$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>

Does _Sethra Lavode_ contain any revelations about Laszlo and his
metaphysical history?


At the close of the Interregnum, Laszlo is, at a guess, in his thirties.
Don't quote me on it if you know better. :-P

Anyway, no matter how old he is, he can't be alive in Vlad's time some 250
years after (give or take). 

Verra does grant long life (immortality?) to her priestesses if we believe
Paarfi. There's no record (unless there's something in Sethra Lavode, which
I've not read yet) of her doing that for lay people.

Zerika implies that she recognizes her current lover by his soul. She tells
Vlad "He is an Easterner because that is the House in which his soul
resides". 

I originally took this to mean that, like Vlad, Zerika's lover was a
Dragaeran soul of a previous love who incarnated into an Easterner. Once she
learned this fact, they just naturally took up where they left off.

Paarfi doesn't directly contradict this reading. (Again, taking into account
that I'm not aware of whatever revelations Sethra Lavode holds.) Zerika's
quote above could simply mean that she found out some time after _Viscount_
that she and Laszlo were "old souls" that had been lovers in past lives,
accounting for their inter-racial attraction. 

In any case, it seems unlikely that Laszlo is her current lover unless there
is some odd magic at work or some strange interaction occurs when a
Dragaeran incarnates as an Easterner, giving the Easterner a much longer
lifespan than normal. I wonder how Vlad would react if he received proof
that, rather than living 60-80 years, that he was destined to live more like
600-800 years.





From davids at Kithrup.COM  Mon Jul 19 14:27:15 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:27:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Piro's New Career, w. minor SL spoiler -- Thoughts?
In-Reply-To: <200407192012.i6JKCluw007429@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040719140021.5298A-100000@kithrup.com>

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004, Casey Rousseau wrote:

>David Silberstein opined:
>> >>>> MINORS SPOILERS IN QUESTION  BELOW:
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> >>>> .
>> 
>> The only way it would work is if Paarfi gave us a completely
>> whitewashed depiction of his character.  Only someone a lot colder,
>> nastier, greedier, and more ambitious than the Piro as depicted in 
>> /The Viscount of Adrilankha/ would join the Jhereg and rise rapidly
>> to a seat on the Council.
>
>I'd have to agree.  I'd expect to find Piro in some diplomatic/espionage
>position working for his old friend and Empress.
>

Speaking of diplomacy, it occurs to me that a cross-House couple
might well be more comfortable as diplomats or consuls outside of
the Empire.

On there other hand, I am probably not the first to note ths
similarity between House and the concept of caste in our world.
Many of the societies outside of India have caste-like social
systems; perhaps some of the societies outside of the Empire have
social systems similar to House.  It would be ironic if Piro and
Ibronka went on a mission with the hope of escaping some of the
social opprobrium they have in the Empire, and find that they are
still looked down upon because of completely different reasons.



From davids at Kithrup.COM  Mon Jul 19 14:34:12 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:34:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Who is Zerika's current lover?
In-Reply-To: <27a201c46dd3$4df3b200$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040719142933.5298B-100000@kithrup.com>

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004, Scott Schultz wrote:

>Does _Sethra Lavode_ contain any revelations about Laszlo and his
>metaphysical history?
>

It does not.

>Anyway, no matter how old he is, he can't be alive in Vlad's time
>some 250 years after (give or take).

Another amusing time-travel idea:  Zerika is meeting her lover *in
the past*.  So Laszlo is indeed already dead by Vlad's time -
Zerika is just seeing him before he dies.



From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 19 17:06:38 2004
From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:06:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Who is Zerika's current lover?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040719142933.5298B-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <20040720000638.75541.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com>

--- David Silberstein <davids at Kithrup.COM> wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Jul 2004, Scott Schultz wrote:
> 
> >Does _Sethra Lavode_ contain any revelations about Laszlo and his
> >metaphysical history?
> >
> 
> It does not.
> 
> >Anyway, no matter how old he is, he can't be alive in Vlad's time
> >some 250 years after (give or take).

I don't see why not.  The Sorceress in Green has managed at least
10 times a normal Dragaeran lifespan, and Laszlo is an accomplished
witch who knows someone with access to considerable sorcerous
power (understatement), so he could have a long lifespan.

> 
> Another amusing time-travel idea:  Zerika is meeting her lover *in
> the past*.  So Laszlo is indeed already dead by Vlad's time -
> Zerika is just seeing him before he dies.

Heh.

As long as we're doing amusing time-travel ideas, I would be amused
if the House of the Phoenix gets rebuilt by someone traveling forward
in time and bringing back Phoenixes to be their own ancestors. 

Jerry Friedman



	
		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 


From lazarus33pjf at cox.net  Mon Jul 19 17:48:54 2004
From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:48:54 -0700
Subject: Who is Zerika's current lover?
In-Reply-To: <20040720000638.75541.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040719142933.5298B-100000@kithrup.com> <20040720000638.75541.qmail@web50702.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8uqof057iv3aren468f3kqp4u1i2b230nk@4ax.com>

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:06:38 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>--- David Silberstein <davids at Kithrup.COM> wrote:
>> On Mon, 19 Jul 2004, Scott Schultz wrote:
>> 
>> >Does _Sethra Lavode_ contain any revelations about Laszlo and his
>> >metaphysical history?
>> >
>> 
>> It does not.
>> 
>> >Anyway, no matter how old he is, he can't be alive in Vlad's time
>> >some 250 years after (give or take).
>
>I don't see why not.  The Sorceress in Green has managed at least
>10 times a normal Dragaeran lifespan, and Laszlo is an accomplished
>witch who knows someone with access to considerable sorcerous
>power (understatement), so he could have a long lifespan.
>
>> 
>> Another amusing time-travel idea:  Zerika is meeting her lover *in
>> the past*.  So Laszlo is indeed already dead by Vlad's time -
>> Zerika is just seeing him before he dies.
>
>Heh.
>
>As long as we're doing amusing time-travel ideas, I would be amused
>if the House of the Phoenix gets rebuilt by someone traveling forward
>in time and bringing back Phoenixes to be their own ancestors. 
>

"I'm my own grandpa.
I'm my own grandpa.
It sounds funny I know,
but it really is so,
I am my own grandpa."

:-)


From mam at theworld.com  Mon Jul 19 19:52:27 2004
From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 22:52:27 -0400
Subject: An amusing idea about Zerika IV
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040719114853.18996B-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0407192247170.1235980-100000@shell01-g>

#It was been mentioned in /Orca/ that Zerika had the odd habit of
#disappearing now and again, a few days at a time.  It's possible,
#of course, that nothing is going on more unusual than the Empress
#taking a bit of a breather, probably with her lover.
#
#However, I was thinking about Devera, and I found myself wondering
#if perhaps Devera was taking Zerika with her on jaunts through time
#to find young Phoenixes to be persuaded to be relocated into the
#future, thus rebuilding the House.

A fascinating idea! But why should that cause her to go missing? With
the usual kinds of time travel, you can go "elsewhen", spend as much
time "then" as you like, and (subjective-)then return to the moment of
your departure, leaving no gap in your presence unless someone was
actually watching you and saw the inevitable discontinuity in your
position, the folds of your clothing, etc.

-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]




From mam at theworld.com  Mon Jul 19 19:56:34 2004
From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 22:56:34 -0400
Subject: Who is Zerika's current lover?
In-Reply-To: <8uqof057iv3aren468f3kqp4u1i2b230nk@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0407192255290.1235980-100000@shell01-g>

#On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:06:38 -0700 (PDT), Lazarus wrote:

#"I'm my own grandpa.
#I'm my own grandpa.
#It sounds funny I know,
#but it really is so,
#I am my own grandpa."
#
#:-)

By your bootstraps, Mr. Long?  :-)

-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]




From mam at TheWorld.com  Mon Jul 19 19:45:08 2004
From: mam at TheWorld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 22:45:08 -0400
Subject: Chest pains
In-Reply-To: <000701c46d0f$b1cf5af0$b07ba8c0@Dad133>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0407192244270.1235980-100000@shell01-g>

I am very glad that you are still around to write us that news!

-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]




From lazarus33pjf at cox.net  Tue Jul 20 00:40:17 2004
From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:40:17 -0700
Subject: Who is Zerika's current lover?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0407192255290.1235980-100000@shell01-g>
References: <8uqof057iv3aren468f3kqp4u1i2b230nk@4ax.com> <Pine.SGI.4.40.0407192255290.1235980-100000@shell01-g>
Message-ID: <12jpf050k7g0qoosndniqqi8j4mnk94pvh@4ax.com>

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 22:56:34 -0400, you wrote:

>#On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:06:38 -0700 (PDT), Lazarus wrote:
>
>#"I'm my own grandpa.
>#I'm my own grandpa.
>#It sounds funny I know,
>#but it really is so,
>#I am my own grandpa."
>#
>#:-)
>
>By your bootstraps, Mr. Long?  :-)
>

Naturally.  :->


From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov  Tue Jul 20 04:17:24 2004
From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:17:24 -0400
Subject: Who is Zerika's current lover?
References: <8uqof057iv3aren468f3kqp4u1i2b230nk@4ax.com> <Pine.SGI.4.40.0407192255290.1235980-100000@shell01-g> <12jpf050k7g0qoosndniqqi8j4mnk94pvh@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <40FCFF44.9080807@email.ers.usda.gov>



lazarus wrote:

>On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 22:56:34 -0400, you wrote:
>
>  
>
>>#On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:06:38 -0700 (PDT), Lazarus wrote:
>>
>>#"I'm my own grandpa.
>>#I'm my own grandpa.
>>#It sounds funny I know,
>>#but it really is so,
>>#I am my own grandpa."
>>#
>>#:-)
>>
>>By your bootstraps, Mr. Long?  :-)
>>
>>    
>>
>
>Naturally.  :->
>
>
>  
>
Or unnaturally (-;   I suppose you could say he son'd a father (-;

ken



From bio_phy at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 20 09:56:03 2004
From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:56:03 -0500
Subject: OT: My flitting attention - an epiphany
Message-ID: <Sea1-F92uV1aGUO41HD0000bb18@hotmail.com>

A friend asked a number of weeks ago if I'd considered working 
collaboratively with another person to help get a handle on some of my 
creative writing projects.

Little known to her, this was a one of a million clues that have been 
floating around in the back of my memory that finally came to a head.

I was listening to NPR last night in the car on the way home.  Tom 
Ashbrook's show, On Point, was discussing a topic involving adults in the 
workplace.  They had a psychiatrist and his wife and featured a number of 
people who had been diagnosed with the particular condition that was the 
subject of the show.

They started off talking about how this condition was most thoroughly 
associated as something that affected children, but how adults were also 
struggling with this condition in the workplace.  They started talking about 
the observable symptoms and I suddenly went from being passive  to an intent 
listener; it was like they were talking about my life story.

* Perpetually late for work (this isn't laziness but a relaxed awareness of 
time
* Lack of focus
* Disorganization
* Restlessness
* Difficulty finishing projects
* Losing things

That led to further questions:
* Do you have difficulty concentrating or focusing your attention on one 
thing?
* Do you often start multiple projects at the same time, but rarely finish 
them?
* Do you have trouble with organization?
* Do you procrastinate on projects that take a lot of attention to detail?
* Do you have problems remembering appointments or obligations?
* Do you have trouble staying seated during meetings or other activities?
* Are you restless or fidgety?
* Do you often lose or misplace things?

These symptoms interfere with success at work and get in the way at home or 
with friends. Once diagnosed, they are relieved that there is a name for the 
frustration they have felt all their lives, and there are stragies, 
therapies, and treatments designed to help.

As I started to look at these things, I could go right down the list.

The condition (as you may have guessed by now) is the adult version of 
Attention-Deficit Disorder.   I checked out this site when I got home: 
http://www.adultadd.com/2_2_recognizing/2_2_recognizing.jsp

It gets better.  ADD is considered to be genetic, and this also explains the 
difficulty my son has been having in school.  He's bright, he's smart, but 
his attentions span can be measured in nano-seconds.  The apple doesn't fall 
far from the tree, apparently.  ;)

So here I am - this explains so very, very many things.  I could go on and 
on (and will at another time).  For now, I'm looking to make an appointment 
to see somebody about getting this checked out.   My hope is that knowing 
this about myself will help me professionally and personally, and help me to 
be more effective and easier to be around.

The radio show mentioned one other fascinating thing - many adults with ADD 
are very creative.  They interviewed a lawyer who manages his ADD with 
medication.  This helps him to do administrative things that would normally 
be difficult to do.  However, he goes off his meds when he's going to be in 
Court because he feels he is better able to think quickly on his feet and 
make immediate, decisive alterations to his tenative plan.

For myself, I am most content when things are flying at me fast and furious, 
and the varied kinds of writing that I do bear this out.  During the course 
of a typical day, I'll be working on a chapter for a technical document, 
writing tech or gaming posts, monitoring tech and gaming forums, reading 
various articles, writing creative snippets for short stories and novels, 
and carrying on quick conversations with friends and peers.

I've discovered two things that greatly enhance my ability to function: 
music, and dual-monitor computer set-ups.  I've long known that music plays 
a critical role in enabling me to be productive.  I suspect it is because it 
is dynamic enough to occupy the frenetic side of my brain, releasing my more 
deliberate side to focus on tasks.  This works for work and for home.  Also, 
with dual-monitor setup, I can have a number of different things "in front 
of me" at once, allowing me to flit from thought to thought and task to task 
in an organic, intuitive way.

In fact, the doctor mentioned that ADD adults seem to go through life 
intuiting as they go.  For me, that means an almost total lack of 
organization, flowing naturally from one task to the next as it presents 
itself.  I've learned how to force this presentation, making it *appear* 
that I am organized.  However, the truth is revealed in a number of ways, 
most clearly in my finances.

?Paralysis of the Will? is explained in the book You Mean I?m Not Lazy, 
Stupid or Crazy?! ?.  The experience a failure to act at all - something 
like a paralysis of the will. The output function totally stops working. 
When this happens, the Adder may find himself in a frozen state, unable to 
take appropriate action. He may watch the softball whiz by as if he were a 
spectator instead of the player responsible for intercepting it. When it's 
time to answer someone's question, he may stand back feeling stupid, because 
he can't think of a response." (Kelly and Ramundo, You Mean I'm Not Lazy, 
Stupid or Crazy?!)

This is a condition where the person experiences the following problems of 
the will: ?block, inertia, stall, or inability?.  Some of the examples are:

* Bills not paid until somebody calls on the phone or until service is cut 
off, when the money is in the bank and there is no intent to accept services 
w/o paying for them.
* Income tax returns late or not filed when there is no intent not to pay 
taxes (most paid during the year by payroll deductions anyway), and when in 
fact there is a belief in the tax system and what it produces for us.
* Similar credit problems when we know pretty much all there is to know 
about staying out of debt.
* Walking into the kitchen with several days' unwished dishes, thinking "Oh, 
how disgusting," and then leaving the dishes again.

I've learned to manage many of these things using various tools and tricks, 
but simple willpower alone hasn't been enough.

When people learn about this condition, the pyschiatrist mentioned yesterday 
(in an amused voice) that adults who have this epiphany typically become 
"born again ADDers" for awhile because they're so excited to learn that they 
aren't freaks and that there is an explanation for what they're 
experiencing.  I'm in the throes of this, myself, and finding that I'm 
looking back at my life through new eyes - the scales have fallen away and I 
can see clearly, now, how this has affected me for my entire life.  This 
excercise carries with it great relief, great sadness, and great 
appreciation for God and those who have accepted me as I am despite the 
side-effects of this condition.

For now, I've shared this with my fellow writer at work but not with work 
officials per se.  I wanted him to understand that I've learned there are 
things that I'm doing that may be treatable, and that I appreciate his 
latitude.  I'm still getting work done, but it can be a real challenge at 
times.  Diagnosing this may help me to be a far more effective writer, 
husband, father, and friend.

Ironically, I've always thought that gaming has made me a better driver, 
more aware of my surroundings, my physical position in the larger ebb and 
flow of traffic and obstacles.  Perhaps there has been a marriage of gaming 
and ADD because I'm able to focus for the briefest time on so many thousands 
of things, incorporating them into my life, and still think about other 
things at the same time.  Instead of wasted processing cycles, perhaps this 
has helped me to have supercharged processing, but not being able to focus 
for long enough to really see anything substantive develop as a result of 
that power.   Speaking creatively, my problem hasn't been that I'm not 
creative enough, it's that I've had too many ideas flowing through my head.  
Snatching one out at random and focussing on it long enough to bring it to 
fruition is real work, but can be satisfying.  I'd love to be able to be a 
more effective writer across-the-board.  I have high hopes for this, 
expectations, even.

I'm planning on seeing somebody and taking things from there.  I told Linda 
first, describing the symptoms and asking her if she thought they fit me.  
She said very much so, yes.  Then I told her what it was and what I was 
planning to do about it, and she was supportive (and also surprised and 
relieved).  She's on her own meds for other things, and I can't help but 
think that she's relieved that she's not that only one who will be receiving 
medicinal help for a physiological condition.  In other words, in a strange 
way, this revelation seems to be bringing us even closer.

So here I am less than a day later.  It is as if a spotlight has been 
focused on something that I've always known but didn't know how it 
manifested or what to do about it.  I feel hopeful that I finally turn the 
corner and start to achieve more with my life and relationships.  Instead of 
having to do a constant juggling act with things that are barely within my 
control, I feel that I may be finally be positioned to take full control of 
myself and my circumstances and my contributions to society and my fellow 
man.

I will be very interested to see what I can accomplish when I am enabled to 
focus my flitting attention and gain control over a life that has, until 
now, been just a little out of control.

johne (phy) cook
wisconsin, usa

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! 
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/



From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Tue Jul 20 09:39:46 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:39:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: An amusing idea about Zerika IV
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040720082426.23961A-100000@kithrup.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040720082426.23961A-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407200936380.7811@flora04.slac.stanford.edu>



On Tue, 20 Jul 2004, David Silberstein wrote:

> [...] it keeps her subordinates on their toes, as it were.

Many of them are Issolas, after all...


p.s. apologies to those who responded to my pre-latest-repeat-storm post,
to whom I would have replied in good weather.



From rone at ennui.org  Tue Jul 20 12:07:40 2004
From: rone at ennui.org (rone)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:07:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The Three Musketeers
In-Reply-To: <3oqqf094svd3136pgfvvefqtb4g0gjfr0i@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20040720190740.B54D626C78@boredom.ennui.org>

lazarus writes:
  I figure this is as good a place as any to ask this, friends.
  What is, in the list's opinion, the best rendition of the Musketeers'
  tale on film?  Also, what's the best translation of Dumas? 
  
I believe Steven has endorsed the Tor translation.  However, i'm not
sure how to find it.

rone
-- 
{Regarding SCO's claims against Linux,} the idea that I came up with is
that Linux should claim to be a parody of UNIX, since parody is Fair Use
and Protected Free Speech and all that.
				- Anthony de Boer <abuse at leftmind.net>


From lazarus33pjf at cox.net  Tue Jul 20 11:59:02 2004
From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:59:02 -0700
Subject: The Three Musketeers
Message-ID: <3oqqf094svd3136pgfvvefqtb4g0gjfr0i@4ax.com>

I figure this is as good a place as any to ask this, friends.

What is, in the list's opinion, the best rendition of the Musketeers'
tale on film?  Also, what's the best translation of Dumas? 


From bio_phy at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 20 12:18:40 2004
From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:18:40 -0500
Subject: The Three Musketeers
Message-ID: <Sea1-F43Oi6taaXM1Zb0000bf5d@hotmail.com>

The best Dumas movie that I've seen overall would be _The Count of Monte 
Cristo_ starring Jim Caviezel and Guy Pearce.  I also liked Gabriel Byrne as 
Capt. D'Artagnan in _The Man in the Iron Mask_, co-starring Leonardo 
DiCaprio, Jeremy Irons, Jeremy Irons, John Malkovich, and G?rard Depardieu, 
although not nearly as much as the former film.

johne (phy) cook
wisconsin, usa

_________________________________________________________________
Discover the best of the best at MSN Luxury Living. http://lexus.msn.com/



From everbard at ix.netcom.com  Tue Jul 20 12:48:31 2004
From: everbard at ix.netcom.com (Michael M Jones)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:48:31 -0400
Subject: The Three Musketeers
References: <3oqqf094svd3136pgfvvefqtb4g0gjfr0i@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <001e01c46e92$88db98f0$0300a8c0@Penelope>

The '90s Disney version, bar none.
Tim Curry, Rebecca Du Morney, Chris O'Donnell, Charlie Sheen, Oliver Platt,
and Keifer Sutherland.

It takes a lot of liberties with the text, but dangit, it's so much FUN.
It's fast-paced, high adventure, with plenty of sword fights
and action sequences, some nice humor, and the cast all seems to be having a
lot of fun doing it.  They really click.

So that always gets my vote for best version of the Three Musketeers.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "lazarus" <lazarus33pjf at cox.net>
To: <dragaera at dragaera.info>
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 2:59 PM
Subject: The Three Musketeers


I figure this is as good a place as any to ask this, friends.

What is, in the list's opinion, the best rendition of the Musketeers'
tale on film?  Also, what's the best translation of Dumas?



From kate.nepveu at gmail.com  Tue Jul 20 12:51:49 2004
From: kate.nepveu at gmail.com (Kate Nepveu)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:51:49 -0400
Subject: The Three Musketeers
In-Reply-To: <20040720190740.B54D626C78@boredom.ennui.org>
References: <20040720190740.B54D626C78@boredom.ennui.org>
Message-ID: <360751e50407201251223514d9@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:07:40 -0700 (PDT), rone <rone at ennui.org> wrote:

> I believe Steven has endorsed the Tor translation.  However, i'm not
> sure how to find it.

ISBN 0812536029, or

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0812536029/

-- 
Kate Nepveu
kate.nepveu at gmail.com


From lazarus33pjf at cox.net  Tue Jul 20 11:45:09 2004
From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:45:09 -0700
Subject: OT: My flitting attention - an epiphany
In-Reply-To: <Sea1-F92uV1aGUO41HD0000bb18@hotmail.com>
References: <Sea1-F92uV1aGUO41HD0000bb18@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5tpqf0hm49gkbjbshoieeufgl43a2fnao1@4ax.com>

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:56:03 -0500, you wrote:

>It gets better.  ADD is considered to be genetic, and this also explains the 
>difficulty my son has been having in school.  He's bright, he's smart, but 
>his attentions span can be measured in nano-seconds.  The apple doesn't fall 
>far from the tree, apparently.  ;)

Many congratulations on your diagnosis.  I was first diagnosed about
10 years ago.  

I strongly, STRONGLY recommend that you combine medication with
behavioural mod therapy.  Due to a lack of funding, I was unable to
continue by behaviour mod, and it's been kinda tough ever since.

We've seen the symptoms in my daughter; luckily, she's only twelve,
and meds combined with my insight in helping her cope are doing
wonders.

(BTW, I had the added problem of bipolar mixed with the ADD.
Wheeeeeee!)



From log0n5150 at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 20 08:40:59 2004
From: log0n5150 at hotmail.com (jeff G.)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:40:59 +0000
Subject: An amusing idea about Zerika IV
Message-ID: <BAY1-F9jmfCHJr1Wtyi000761b1@hotmail.com>




---
 > However, I was thinking about Devera, and I found myself
 > wondering if perhaps Devera was taking Zerika with her on
 > jaunts through time to find young Phoenixes to be persuaded
 > to be relocated into the future, thus rebuilding the House.

I tend to think of Devera as an in-joke, rather than a character in her own
right. We don't really know anything about her personality or her
motiviations. The Demon Goddess might send Devera on an errand like the one
described, but then she might as well do it herself as entrust it to a
child.

To complicate such things, if Zerika has a patron goddes it's probably NOT
Verra, so her own Goddess ought to be the one taking care of things like
insuring that the House doesn't vanish utterly. Then again, Laszlo worships
Verra IIRC, so maybe that's one of the things that he and Zerika have in
common.

For rebuilding the House, I think a more likely solution may lie in the
field of genetics.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Didn't one of the Vlad novels note that a mixed marriage was the only way to 
create a Phoenix? I can't remember if that was meant as an ironic comment on 
the current Phoenix situation, or something else. I do recall you are not a 
true Phoenix unless one flies overhead at the moment of birth. . . . which 
leads to another conjecture. Are there Drageraens of pure Phoenix blood 
running about that are not "true" Pheonixum (heh) due to a lack of 
appearance of the aforementioned avian? If that is the case, as the head of 
the house, Zerika could rescind the stricter standards, and repopulate the 
house with them.


Jeff

_________________________________________________________________
Don?t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/



From davids at Kithrup.COM  Tue Jul 20 08:36:46 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 08:36:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: An amusing idea about Zerika IV
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0407192247170.1235980-100000@shell01-g>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040720082426.23961A-100000@kithrup.com>

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004, Mark A Mandel wrote:

>#It was been mentioned in /Orca/ that Zerika had the odd habit of
>#disappearing now and again, a few days at a time.  It's possible,
>#of course, that nothing is going on more unusual than the Empress
>#taking a bit of a breather, probably with her lover.
>#
>#However, I was thinking about Devera, and I found myself wondering
>#if perhaps Devera was taking Zerika with her on jaunts through time
>#to find young Phoenixes to be persuaded to be relocated into the
>#future, thus rebuilding the House.
>
>A fascinating idea! But why should that cause her to go missing? With
>the usual kinds of time travel, you can go "elsewhen", spend as much
>time "then" as you like, and (subjective-)then return to the moment of
>your departure, leaving no gap in your presence unless someone was
>actually watching you and saw the inevitable discontinuity in your
>position, the folds of your clothing, etc.
>

Well, the thing that I've noted is that there seems to be a certain
lack of specificity and granularity when it comes to time-travel in
Dragaera.  For example, in /Brokedown Palace/, Devera is off by two
years the first time she comes to Fenario.

I don't think that the few days Zerika is missing when she
reappears after disappearing bother her too much.  And it keeps her
subordinates on their toes, as it were. 



From michaelangelo at tripp-russo.com  Tue Jul 20 14:52:20 2004
From: michaelangelo at tripp-russo.com (Michael Angelo Tripp-Russo)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:52:20 -0500
Subject: The Three Musketeers
References: <Sea1-F43Oi6taaXM1Zb0000bf5d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <40FD9414.6000209@tripp-russo.com>



Johne Cook wrote:

> The best Dumas movie that I've seen overall would be _The Count of 
> Monte Cristo_ starring Jim Caviezel and Guy Pearce. 

I agree.

After seeing it I truly had a better understanding of human misery and 
how even prosperity after said misery doesn't remove the stain it leaves 
upon your soul.





From scott at cjhunter.com  Tue Jul 20 14:39:26 2004
From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 14:39:26 -0700
Subject: The Three Musketeers
In-Reply-To: <001e01c46e92$88db98f0$0300a8c0@Penelope>
Message-ID: <04e701c46ea2$0e10dd00$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>

> What is, in the list's opinion, the best rendition of the 
> Musketeers' tale on film?  Also, what's the best translation of Dumas?

My favorite film rendition is still the old Gene Kelly version, despite the
singing. :-P That probably says more about my enjoyment of Gene Kelly than
about how great that particular version is. 

It takes liberties with the story, as they all do. Unlike most, though, it
focuses as much on the darker side of the story as it does on the
swashbuckling. If the death of Constance is recounted a bit differently than
Dumas wrote it, at least the story is told, unlike most of the more modern
renditions that prefer a happier ending. Likewise, if the business of the
Carte Blanche is recounted a bit differently, it is at least recounted in
something like the spirit of Dumas instead of the usual Hollywood ending
that dispenses with it altogether in the name of a "rousing swashbuckling
finish". 

Besides, if you aren't going to hire a real Frenchman to play Richelieu then
I can't think of anyone better suited to capture the power and menace of the
man than Vincent Price. 

I'm not qualified to recommend a translation. I found no fault with the
version available at the Online Literature Library
(http://www.literature.org/authors/dumas-alexandre/the-three-musketeers/chap
ter-01.html ) but I don't speak French and have no clue at all who
translated it or the quality of said translation.





From goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU  Tue Jul 20 16:30:33 2004
From: goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (David Goldfarb)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:30:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Good-bye
Message-ID: <200407202330.i6KNUXL13378@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU>


Interesting as the discussions on this list are, they are not interesting
enough to be worth wading through a ton of duplicate messages, particularly
when it can be hard to tell dupes from new messages.  I'm therefore
unsubscribing.  If DD-B ever manages to find and fix the problem, perhaps
he can post a note to rasff or rasfw.

(If this message winds up going out multiple times, well, I'm sorry.)

-- 
   David Goldfarb       <*>|"The only thing better than messing with somebody's
goldfarb at ocf.berkeley.edu  | sense of reality is messing with a whole LOTTA
goldfarb at csua.berkeley.edu | people's sense of reality...."
                           |              -- J. Michael Straczynski


From zardoz at weirdness.com  Tue Jul 20 16:56:28 2004
From: zardoz at weirdness.com (Robert Sallade)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:56:28 -0700
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
In-Reply-To: <20040719161313.GA28342@debill.org>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040719100007.03548270@camail2.harvard.edu> <6.0.1.1.1.20040718222254.01eb0ec0@mail147.pair.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040719100007.03548270@camail2.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040720160729.0346b480@mail.access-4-free.com>

New to the list, but definitely not new to the books...

I don't know if this has been covered on this list (if it has please give 
me the mssg # because I couldn't find it.)

Pure speculation follows:

Is Ibronka name of one, two, or three people? Roanna's companion, Vlad's 
grandmother, and a third that Vlad dates.

Noish-pa never says that his wife died, only that he "lost" her. "Lost" 
doesn't always mean "died". Vlad "lost" Cawti and she is very much alive. 
Vlad never mentions ever meeting her. Could this be the reason that his 
father refused to bring Vlad to see his grandfather until Vlad was 5?

I'm not intimating that Vlad is half-Dragaeran. His Eastern reactions to 
teleportation, stature, and ability to grow facial hair almost completely 
preclude it. (Yeah, I'm hedging my bets...) What if Noish-pa had a thing 
for one particular "elf" and ...

There is also the Ibronka that Vlad dates (dragtime: "Vlad dates Ibronka 
(Tl 174)).

Is Ibronka is a very popular name among Easterners and Dragaerans? (Which 
conflicts with the concept that there are different popular names, i.e. 
Mario and one other that eludes me at the moment, which are "Dragaeran(s) 
with an Eastern name.") I doubt very much that Noish-pa would marry and 
have children with a woman with a Dragaeran name.

Is Ibronka another Dragaeran with an Eastern name? It doesn't seem likely 
that she would rise in the eyes of other Dragaerans with an Eastern name. 
Mario is well known, but not highly regarded except for his singular 
talent, and that talent is not universally acceptable.

So do we have one individual? No. Vlad can't even patronize a Dragaeran 
brothel so would probably never date one.

Two? Possible. When talking about Vlad, Noish-pa says "your grandmother", 
but when talking about the uprising, Vlad refers to his grandmother and 
Noish-pa says "that is when I lost Ibronka." Noish-pa doesn't mess around 
with wrong words (usually).

What say you?



From pulmon at comcast.net  Tue Jul 20 18:47:58 2004
From: pulmon at comcast.net (Kenneth Gorelick)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:47:58 -0400
Subject: Likewise
In-Reply-To: <200407202330.i6KNUXL13378@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU>
Message-ID: <BD23438E.2940%pulmon@comcast.net>

I tried to unsubscribe but it wouldn't let me. Let me know if you succeed.

Ken


On 7/20/04 7:30 PM, "David Goldfarb" <goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:

> 
> Interesting as the discussions on this list are, they are not interesting
> enough to be worth wading through a ton of duplicate messages, particularly
> when it can be hard to tell dupes from new messages.  I'm therefore
> unsubscribing.  If DD-B ever manages to find and fix the problem, perhaps
> he can post a note to rasff or rasfw.
> 
> (If this message winds up going out multiple times, well, I'm sorry.)




From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net  Tue Jul 20 18:37:37 2004
From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:37:37 -0500
Subject: Likewise
In-Reply-To: <BD23438E.2940%pulmon@comcast.net>
References: <BD23438E.2940%pulmon@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <40FDC8E1.8060703@comcast.net>

Me, I've just been deleting whole threads unread b-cause it was to hard 
to wade through the crap.

Should we move this effort  bodily to Yahoo?  At least until DD-B gets 
his glitch fixed?  Oddly enough, Natter, the MNSTF mailing list, which 
also runs off his server, does not have this problem.

Mia

Kenneth Gorelick wrote:

>I tried to unsubscribe but it wouldn't let me. Let me know if you succeed.
>
>Ken
>
>
>On 7/20/04 7:30 PM, "David Goldfarb" <goldfarb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Interesting as the discussions on this list are, they are not interesting
>>enough to be worth wading through a ton of duplicate messages, particularly
>>when it can be hard to tell dupes from new messages.  I'm therefore
>>unsubscribing.  If DD-B ever manages to find and fix the problem, perhaps
>>he can post a note to rasff or rasfw.
>>
>>(If this message winds up going out multiple times, well, I'm sorry.)
>>    
>>
>
>
>
>  
>

From howard at brazee.net  Tue Jul 20 19:24:55 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 20:24:55 -0600
Subject: The Three Musketeers
In-Reply-To: <04e701c46ea2$0e10dd00$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <000501c46ec9$ea214fb0$b07ba8c0@Dad133>

Scott Schultz wrote:
> If the death of Constance is recounted a bit
> differently than Dumas wrote it, at least the story is told, unlike
> most of the more modern renditions that prefer a happier ending.

Are there versions where Constance survives?



From frank at exit.com  Tue Jul 20 19:42:35 2004
From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:42:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Likewise
In-Reply-To: <40FDC8E1.8060703@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <200407210242.i6L2gZJC031829@realtime.exit.com>

Mia McDavid wrote:
> Me, I've just been deleting whole threads unread b-cause it was to hard 
> to wade through the crap.
> 
> Should we move this effort  bodily to Yahoo?  At least until DD-B gets 
> his glitch fixed?  Oddly enough, Natter, the MNSTF mailing list, which 
> also runs off his server, does not have this problem.

At the risk of echoing interminably, I can host the mailing list, so we
don't have to deal with the advertising of Yahoo, if folks are interested.
I already host a couple of mailing lists (using Mailman), one more will
be trivial.
-- 
Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com	http://www.exit.com/
Exit Consulting                 http://www.gpsclock.com/
                                http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/


From mam at theworld.com  Tue Jul 20 19:32:50 2004
From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 22:32:50 -0400
Subject: Likewise
In-Reply-To: <40FDC8E1.8060703@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0407202227120.1327136-100000@shell01-g>

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004, Mia McDavid wrote:

#Me, I've just been deleting whole threads unread b-cause it was to hard
#to wade through the crap.

It's simpler than that for me.
I use a UNIX command line mail reader called pine, which I access from a
Windows machine through a terminal program.  Some people consider this
Stone Age, because I don't see HTML or other formatting.  I don't get
viruses, either: there's no such thing as automatically opening an
attachment.

Anyway, I sort my inbox by thread and go to the next unread message.
The thread sort groups all the messages with the same subject by the
same author.  I read the first in a sequence (of such messages with
similar sizes) and then mark all the rest for deletion, and read the
next, different message in the thread.  Every so often I delete all the
marked messages.

It works for me.  YMMV.

-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]




From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov  Wed Jul 21 05:47:26 2004
From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:47:26 -0400
Subject: The Three Musketeers
References: <Sea1-F43Oi6taaXM1Zb0000bf5d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <40FE65DE.2040000@email.ers.usda.gov>

The best 3M for me is Lester's =The Three Musketeers= & =The Four 
Musketeers=, shot as one film but forced to be released as two (much to 
the actors' collective  surprise).  The original concept was a 3M 
starring the Beatles, but by the time the project could get off the 
ground, the band was no more.  Undeterred, Lester went ahead with an 
all-star cast of Michael York, Richard Chamberlain, Charlton Heston, 
Oliver Reed, Faye Dunaway, Raquel Welch, Spike Milligan & a host of 
others.  It stays moderately close to the book & retains Constance's & 
Milady's deaths, although it also kills off Richelieu's chief henchman 
as well.  Mostly, it is full of comedy, but the ending is necessarily 
dark.  The dialogue is witty, sparkling, & full of word-play.  The fight 
scenes are inventive & topnotch, culminating in a duel in a church that 
is unbelievable, the actors literally crawling across the floor in 
exhaustion to have at each other.  Visually, the film (I think of it as 
one film, not two) is a stunner:  a constant clash between the High 
Style of 17th century French aristocracy juxtaposed between the rather 
dirty reality of 17th century life.  I never tire of it, and the opening 
sequence of disembodied swords in strobo-slo-mo gleaming against the 
dark background still raises the hairs on the back of my neck every time.

ken



From skzb at dreamcafe.com  Wed Jul 21 00:02:43 2004
From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 00:02:43 -0700
Subject: The Three Musketeers
In-Reply-To: <40FE65DE.2040000@email.ers.usda.gov>
References: <Sea1-F43Oi6taaXM1Zb0000bf5d@hotmail.com>	 <40FE65DE.2040000@email.ers.usda.gov>
Message-ID: <1090393362.2711.142.camel@localhost>

On Wed, 2004-07-21 at 05:47, Ken Koester wrote:
> The best 3M for me is Lester's =The Three Musketeers= & =The Four 
> Musketeers=, shot as one film but forced to be released as two (much to 
> the actors' collective  surprise). 

Yep.  That's my favorite as well.

-- 
Steven Brust	skzb at dreamcafe.com
"Preacher, don't the bible have some pretty specific things to say about
killing?"  "Quite specific.  It's rather fuzzier, however, on the
subject of kneecaps." -- Firefly



From scott at cjhunter.com  Wed Jul 21 09:13:02 2004
From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:13:02 -0700
Subject: The Three Musketeers
In-Reply-To: <000501c46ec9$ea214fb0$b07ba8c0@Dad133>
Message-ID: <190001c46f3d$9f7a5820$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>


> Are there versions where Constance survives?
> 
> 

The aforementioned Disney effort is one. If I remember correctly, the
Michael York version likewise had Constance alive at the end, but that one
led into a sequel so they may have corrected it in The Four Musketeers. I
wasn't ever inspired enough to actually watch the sequel so I don't really
know if it was an extension of the first, an adaptation of 20 Years After or
something else entirely.

The different takes on Constance can be interesting. In the Michael York
film, she's more or less just a bimbo in distress. In the most recent Disney
film, she's a sharp-witted 90's woman in Renaissance clothing, who helps
D'artagnan win the day. In the Gene Kelly film, Constance is innocent and
pure-hearted. She stands in for Fentor(sp?) as Milady's jailor and Milady
uses that innocence against her in the same way that Dumas had her use
Fentor's Puritan innocence against him. It's one of the things I like about
this version. They manage to compress the story while still preserving the
essential parts of it. Later versions tended to achieve the compression by
simply dispensing with the story entirely.

I don't want to over-hype the Kelly version. It's a fiftie's (1948,
actually) movie with the sensibilities of a fiftie's movie. I'd say, though,
that like Eroll Flynn's silent version of Robin Hood, the film manages to
transcend its age and deliver a credible version of the story along with an
enjoyable movie experience. Your mileage may vary. I am, after all, a
self-admitted Gene Kelly fan. ;-)





From mneme at io.com  Wed Jul 21 09:28:07 2004
From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:28:07 -0500
Subject: Duplicates
In-Reply-To: <m2d62pl4m8.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>
References: <m2d62pl4m8.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>
Message-ID: <16638.39319.735927.33792@fnord.io.com>

David Dyer-Bennet writes:
>Sorry it's taking so long to resolve this.  It didn't start at a
>well-defined time, but "nothing had changed" (really, so far as I can
>tell) when it became serious, and nothing I can track down yet seems
>to show any clue to what's happening.  It still happens on some other
>mail arriving here as well.  I've by now made dozens of changes,
>without learning anything about the underlying cause. 

FWIW, if you want to just move the list for a while, I can host it on
labcats.org (as a mailman list).

>The examples I've examined appear to be duplicated in the process of
>transit from ns2 (also primary MX) and gw.  One thing I'm trying is
>dropping ns2 as the primary MX for dragaera.info, so all the mail
>comes in direct.  Perhaps that will at least reduce the incidence.
>I've completely changed the protocol used to refer mail from ns2 to
>gw, with no change I can find in duplicates. 

*sigh*

I think you need to examine the qmail logs, though I'm not sure
exactly what to look for -- retry loops, presumably, but I'm far from
a qmail expert.



-- 
       Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org))  |\      _,,,--,,_  ,)
--^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick    /,`.-'`'   -,  ;-;;'  
  /\\  your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle     |,4-  ) )-,_ ) /\     
/-\\\  your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax            '---''(_/--' (_/-'     


From scott at cjhunter.com  Wed Jul 21 08:33:57 2004
From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 08:33:57 -0700
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040720160729.0346b480@mail.access-4-free.com>
Message-ID: <18bf01c46f38$29ea9e30$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>

Dragaerans seem to freely mix Serioli, Dragaeran, and Eastern names as the
mood takes them. Given that Ibronka seems to be an Eastern name, I'd say it
more likely indicates that her (Piro's sweetheart, Ibronka the Dzur) parents
simply liked the way the name sounded. I wouldn't even be that surprised to
find a Dragaeran with a Cat-Centaur or Jenoine name. They don't seem to
attach a lot of cultural significance to them.






From howard at brazee.net  Wed Jul 21 09:35:37 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:35:37 -0600
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
In-Reply-To: <18bf01c46f38$29ea9e30$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <000201c46f40$c129f900$b07ba8c0@Dad133>

Scott Schultz wrote:
> Dragaerans seem to freely mix Serioli, Dragaeran, and Eastern names
> as the mood takes them. Given that Ibronka seems to be an Eastern
> name, I'd say it more likely indicates that her (Piro's sweetheart,
> Ibronka the Dzur) parents simply liked the way the name sounded. I
> wouldn't even be that surprised to find a Dragaeran with a
> Cat-Centaur or Jenoine name. They don't seem to attach a lot of
> cultural significance to them.

Also, there may be a Dragaeran empire, but that hardly means that there is a
single Dragaeran culture.   Or language.   The history of the town on the
ford indicates quite to the contrary.

Vlad's experience in running illustrates how the gulfs between the townsfolk
and their neighboring towns, and even more - to the ranks of the nobility
were large.




From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov  Wed Jul 21 09:48:41 2004
From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:48:41 -0400
Subject: The Three Musketeers
References: <190001c46f3d$9f7a5820$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <40FE9E69.60804@email.ers.usda.gov>



Scott Schultz wrote:

>>Are there versions where Constance survives?
>>
>>    
>>
>The aforementioned Disney effort is one. If I remember correctly, the
>Michael York version likewise had Constance alive at the end, but that one
>led into a sequel so they may have corrected it in The Four Musketeers. I
>wasn't ever inspired enough to actually watch the sequel so I don't really
>know if it was an extension of the first, an adaptation of 20 Years After or
>something else entirely.
>  
>
Cf. my earlier post.  T4M was simply the second half of T3M, a sequel 
only by courtesy.  I've tried to
splice the two together for years without being pleased; a DVD 
"director's cut" would be wonderful.
In this one, Milady strangles Constance shortly before D'Artagnon would 
rescue her.

Lester *did* do =20 Years After= in the late '80s with much of the 
original cast reprising their roles; I think
it was only for TV.  About half the plot got dropped, including all the 
Charles I line, IIRC.  It had a few
good moments, but overall was pretty palid compared to the first work.

ken



From howard at brazee.net  Wed Jul 21 09:43:35 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:43:35 -0600
Subject: The Three Musketeers
In-Reply-To: <190001c46f3d$9f7a5820$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <000601c46f41$de61df50$b07ba8c0@Dad133>

Scott Schultz wrote:
>> Are there versions where Constance survives?
>>
>>
>
> The aforementioned Disney effort is one.

For the life of me I don't remember a Disney version.   Just as well.

> If I remember correctly, the
> Michael York version likewise had Constance alive at the end, but
> that one led into a sequel so they may have corrected it in The Four
> Musketeers. I wasn't ever inspired enough to actually watch the
> sequel so I don't really know if it was an extension of the first, an
> adaptation of 20 Years After or something else entirely.

This wonderful adaptation attempted to be true to the novel - so much so
that it could not be cut to movie length.   So they split it into two
movies.   The cast sued to be paid for two movies, but I don't remember the
result of that.

I like this version better than the Gene Kelley version even if his
acrobatics were fun to watch.

The typical movie is long enough for something like a 110 page novel.   I
just bought the DvD of _Master and Commander, Far side of the World_ and am
interested in seeing how successful it was.






From scott at cjhunter.com  Wed Jul 21 10:23:02 2004
From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:23:02 -0700
Subject: The Three Musketeers
In-Reply-To: <000601c46f41$de61df50$b07ba8c0@Dad133>
Message-ID: <19ad01c46f47$67249b70$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>

> For the life of me I don't remember a Disney version.   Just as well.

It was a 1993 film, with a star cast including people like Val Kilmer,
Keifer Sutherland, Martin Sheen and Tim Curry. It was alright as these
things go. Tim Curry played an over-the-top Richelieu, and the conclusion of
the story went way out into left field with Richelieu attempting to escape
with Louis and Anne as hostages and the Musketeers as their rescuers. In a
typical Disney ending, D'artangan is called out by the brother of girl how
had "dishonored" at the beginning of the film. As D'artagnan prepares to
accept the challenge, Aramis tells him that no Musketeer ever stands alone,
and the brother and his minions flee in terror as the entire legion of
Musketeers comes charging forward in Brotherhood with D'artagnan. 

If you're a story puritan, you should probably avoid it. *heh*

> This wonderful adaptation [with Michal York] attempted to be true to the
novel - 
> so much so
> that it could not be cut to movie length.   So they split it into two
> movies.   The cast sued to be paid for two movies, but I 
> don't remember the
> result of that.

I've been reading up on it in IMDB. If this thread has accomplished nothing
else, it will at least have got me interested enough to move the Michael
York movies to the top of my Netflix list so that I can see if I like them
any better twenty years later. Seeing both movies back-to-back might at
least make me appreciate the first one more than I did when it came out in
the theater back in the seventies.

> The typical movie is long enough for something like a 110 
> page novel.   I
> just bought the DvD of _Master and Commander, Far side of the 
> World_ and am interested in seeing how successful it was.

I've not read the novels at all. (I understand from people who have that the
film is inspired by parts of 2-3 books.) I expected to be bored, frankly,
but I really enjoyed it. I can't contrast it to the source material but it
worked for me as an excellent story.

Since Steve has mentioned reading those books I suppose we're even
marginally on topic still. *heh*




From dd-b at dd-b.net  Wed Jul 21 09:14:23 2004
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:14:23 -0500
Subject: Duplicates
Message-ID: <m2d62pl4m8.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>

Sorry it's taking so long to resolve this.  It didn't start at a
well-defined time, but "nothing had changed" (really, so far as I can
tell) when it became serious, and nothing I can track down yet seems
to show any clue to what's happening.  It still happens on some other
mail arriving here as well.  I've by now made dozens of changes,
without learning anything about the underlying cause. 

The examples I've examined appear to be duplicated in the process of
transit from ns2 (also primary MX) and gw.  One thing I'm trying is
dropping ns2 as the primary MX for dragaera.info, so all the mail
comes in direct.  Perhaps that will at least reduce the incidence.
I've completely changed the protocol used to refer mail from ns2 to
gw, with no change I can find in duplicates. 
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Wed Jul 21 10:53:41 2004
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:53:41 -0500
Subject: Duplicates
In-Reply-To: <16638.39319.735927.33792@fnord.io.com> (Joshua Kronengold's
 message of "Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:28:07 -0500")
References: <m2d62pl4m8.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>
	<16638.39319.735927.33792@fnord.io.com>
Message-ID: <m2k6wxi6vu.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>

Joshua Kronengold <mneme at io.com> writes:

> David Dyer-Bennet writes:
>>Sorry it's taking so long to resolve this.  It didn't start at a
>>well-defined time, but "nothing had changed" (really, so far as I can
>>tell) when it became serious, and nothing I can track down yet seems
>>to show any clue to what's happening.  It still happens on some other
>>mail arriving here as well.  I've by now made dozens of changes,
>>without learning anything about the underlying cause. 
>
> FWIW, if you want to just move the list for a while, I can host it on
> labcats.org (as a mailman list).
>
>>The examples I've examined appear to be duplicated in the process of
>>transit from ns2 (also primary MX) and gw.  One thing I'm trying is
>>dropping ns2 as the primary MX for dragaera.info, so all the mail
>>comes in direct.  Perhaps that will at least reduce the incidence.
>>I've completely changed the protocol used to refer mail from ns2 to
>>gw, with no change I can find in duplicates. 
>
> *sigh*
>
> I think you need to examine the qmail logs, though I'm not sure
> exactly what to look for -- retry loops, presumably, but I'm far from
> a qmail expert.

I assure you that I've spent a really quite remarkable percentage of
my life recently examining the qmail logs, and then the things that
write them.  There is no sign anywhere in any log I've examined of the
cause of this problem.  The duplicate messages show transiting the
system, but there's no indication of any problem in any of those
transits, and they don't differ in any way from messages trnasiting
the system that do *not* duplicate. 
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From alexx at panix.com  Wed Jul 21 11:24:32 2004
From: alexx at panix.com (Alexx Kay)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:24:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: The Three Musketeers
In-Reply-To: <000601c46f41$de61df50$b07ba8c0@Dad133> from "Howard Brazee" at Jul 21, 2004 10:43:35 AM
Message-ID: <200407211824.i6LIOXH06609@panix1.panix.com>


> This wonderful adaptation attempted to be true to the novel - so much so
> that it could not be cut to movie length.   So they split it into two
> movies.   The cast sued to be paid for two movies, but I don't remember the
> result of that.

One long term result is that movie contracts now include a clause that
explicitly specifies how many movies are being made.  In 'honor' of the
producers who first tried this, this is known as "the Salkind Clause".

> I like this version better than the Gene Kelley version even if his
> acrobatics were fun to watch.

The Kelley is my favorite, but the York version is certainly not bad.
Avoid at all costs "The Fifth Musketeer".  Dullest fight scenes ever.

Alexx


Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers.
alexx at carolingiaSPAMBL@CK.org                http://www.panix.com/~alexx
"...my favorite thing about [my father's] career was that he wrote the book
 (Act of God) that Elvis Presley was reading the night he died [...] Elvis
 died of a heart attack, so maybe...just maybe...my dad's thriller was what
 killed the king, you know what I'm saying?
   I was in high school at the time, and you've never known popularity,
 till your dad kills Elvis."       -- Ty Templeton


From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Wed Jul 21 11:28:43 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:28:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The Three Musketeers
In-Reply-To: <200407211824.i6LIOXH06609@panix1.panix.com>
References: <200407211824.i6LIOXH06609@panix1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407211126340.4452@flora04.slac.stanford.edu>



On Wed, 21 Jul 2004, Alexx Kay wrote:

> Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers.
> alexx at carolingiaSPAMBL@CK.org                http://www.panix.com/~alexx
> "...my favorite thing about [my father's] career was that he wrote the book
>  (Act of God) that Elvis Presley was reading the night he died [...] Elvis
>  died of a heart attack, so maybe...just maybe...my dad's thriller was what
>  killed the king, you know what I'm saying?
>    I was in high school at the time, and you've never known popularity,
>  till your dad kills Elvis."       -- Ty Templeton



Ooh!  Ooh!  Could SKZB kill someone famous?  I'll go draw up a list of
suggestions right now.


From scott at cjhunter.com  Wed Jul 21 11:42:26 2004
From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:42:26 -0700
Subject: Duplicates
In-Reply-To: <m2k6wxi6vu.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>
Message-ID: <1a1a01c46f52$7eb2e070$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>

> I assure you that I've spent a really quite remarkable 
> percentage of my life recently examining the qmail logs, and 
> then the things that write them.  

I'm a sendmail guy myself, so I can't offer any insight. However, the thing
I always tell my kids when they've lost something is "If you can't find it
in the places where it's supposed to be, look in the places where it's NOT
supposed to be." 

In this case, if we accept the proposition that nothing has changed in qmail
then we have to look for changes outside of qmail. 

Does qmail feed into procmail the way sendmail does or is it a delivery
agent like procmail? Is there any chance that something is feeding into one
or more accounts that are, in turn,  feeding into procmail (say, to read
some anti-spam rules) which is then feeding back into qmail for the final
delivery and causing a loop? Maybe some changes to the global procmailrc
file? 

I don't know if this helps things or obfuscates them further, but I've
noticed that I periodically seem to be missing posts as well as getting
duplicates. It's one of the things that makes me wonder about a spam filter
gone amuck. (I'd also suspect a problem with someone's .forward file.)

Anyway, best of luck with the investigation. It sucks having to debug a
system with almost no solid clues about where the problem lies.








From Gaertk at aol.com  Wed Jul 21 12:02:29 2004
From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:02:29 -0400
Subject: Duplicates
Message-ID: <3F2696DE.04DF8DA7.00048EA6@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/21/2004 1:53:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, David Dyer-Bennet <dd-b at dd-b.net> writes:

> I assure you that I've spent a really quite remarkable 
> percentage of my life recently examining the qmail logs, and 
> then the things that write them.  There is no sign anywhere 
> in any log I've examined of the cause of this problem.  The 
> duplicate messages show transiting the system, but there's no 
> indication of any problem in any of those transits, and they 
> don't differ in any way from messages trnasiting the system 
> that do *not* duplicate. 

Have you looked for patterns in which system created the 
original message?  It looks like some people (including myself)
never duplicate, while others (like you) always do.


--KG



From mneme at io.com  Wed Jul 21 12:33:23 2004
From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:33:23 -0500
Subject: Duplicates
In-Reply-To: <1a1a01c46f52$7eb2e070$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
References: <m2k6wxi6vu.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>
	<1a1a01c46f52$7eb2e070$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <16638.50435.377996.192265@fnord.io.com>

Scott Schultz writes:
>or more accounts that are, in turn,  feeding into procmail (say, to read
>some anti-spam rules) which is then feeding back into qmail for the final
>delivery and causing a loop? Maybe some changes to the global procmailrc
>file? 

I think if it were a loop, it would be easier to debug, but in fact,
it follows the "quick first, slow down over time" model of a retry
loop.

now -what- is retrying is another question.


-- 
       Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org))  |\      _,,,--,,_  ,)
--^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick    /,`.-'`'   -,  ;-;;'  
  /\\  your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle     |,4-  ) )-,_ ) /\     
/-\\\  your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax            '---''(_/--' (_/-'     


From singram at videotron.ca  Wed Jul 21 13:07:20 2004
From: singram at videotron.ca (singram at videotron.ca)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:07:20 -0400
Subject: Duplicates
Message-ID: <11342a10dd01.10dd0111342a@videotron.ca>


> I think if it were a loop, it would be easier to debug, but in fact,
> it follows the "quick first, slow down over time" model of a retry
> loop.
> 
> now -what- is retrying is another question.
> 

I believe the answer to that is 'our patience'...



From dd-b at dd-b.net  Wed Jul 21 14:09:23 2004
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:09:23 -0500
Subject: Duplicates
In-Reply-To: <1a1a01c46f52$7eb2e070$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> (Scott Schultz's
 message of "Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:42:26 -0700")
References: <1a1a01c46f52$7eb2e070$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <m2zn5tgj98.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>

"Scott Schultz" <scott at cjhunter.com> writes:

>> I assure you that I've spent a really quite remarkable 
>> percentage of my life recently examining the qmail logs, and 
>> then the things that write them.  
>
> I'm a sendmail guy myself, so I can't offer any insight. However, the thing
> I always tell my kids when they've lost something is "If you can't find it
> in the places where it's supposed to be, look in the places where it's NOT
> supposed to be." 
>
> In this case, if we accept the proposition that nothing has changed in qmail
> then we have to look for changes outside of qmail. 
>
> Does qmail feed into procmail the way sendmail does or is it a delivery
> agent like procmail? Is there any chance that something is feeding into one
> or more accounts that are, in turn,  feeding into procmail (say, to read
> some anti-spam rules) which is then feeding back into qmail for the final
> delivery and causing a loop? Maybe some changes to the global procmailrc
> file? 
>
> I don't know if this helps things or obfuscates them further, but I've
> noticed that I periodically seem to be missing posts as well as getting
> duplicates. It's one of the things that makes me wonder about a spam filter
> gone amuck. (I'd also suspect a problem with someone's .forward file.)

No procmail, no spam filter on the path to list distribution.  (I
think spam filtering belongs at the end of the chain primarily; the
subscriber-only posting rule, enforced by ezmlm itself, keeps most
spam out of the list anyway.)

> Anyway, best of luck with the investigation. It sucks having to debug a
> system with almost no solid clues about where the problem lies.

Thanks.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From howard at brazee.net  Wed Jul 21 14:11:31 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:11:31 -0600
Subject: The Three Musketeers
In-Reply-To: <40FE9E69.60804@email.ers.usda.gov>
Message-ID: <000101c46f67$4c3ac0d0$b07ba8c0@Dad133>

Ken Koester wrote:

> Lester *did* do =20 Years After= in the late '80s with much of the
> original cast reprising their roles; I think
> it was only for TV.  About half the plot got dropped, including all
> the Charles I line, IIRC.  It had a few
> good moments, but overall was pretty palid compared to the first work.
>
> ken

Still, Lester will always be the creator of _It's a Hard Day's Night_, and
can be forgiven some lesser works.




From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 21 17:13:42 2004
From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:13:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Duplicates
In-Reply-To: <1a1a01c46f52$7eb2e070$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <20040722001342.6834.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Scott Schultz <scott at cjhunter.com> wrote:
> > I assure you that I've spent a really quite remarkable 
> > percentage of my life recently examining the qmail logs, and 
> > then the things that write them.  
> 
> I'm a sendmail guy myself, so I can't offer any insight. However, the
> thing
> I always tell my kids when they've lost something is "If you can't find
> it
> in the places where it's supposed to be, look in the places where it's
> NOT
> supposed to be." 
...

And I always tell people what my sister tells her kids: "If you
can't find something, look again in the first place you looked."
Two classes of people, I guess.

Jerry Friedman


	
		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!
http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/


From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 21 18:33:59 2004
From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:33:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040720160729.0346b480@mail.access-4-free.com>
Message-ID: <20040722013359.45347.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Robert Sallade <zardoz at weirdness.com> wrote:
> New to the list, but definitely not new to the books...
> 
> I don't know if this has been covered on this list (if it has please
> give 
> me the mssg # because I couldn't find it.)
> 
> Pure speculation follows:
> 
> Is Ibronka name of one, two, or three people? Roanna's companion, Vlad's
> 
> grandmother, and a third that Vlad dates.

I suspect three.  We've been talking and joking about time travel,
which is what would be required for Vlad to date his own Grandmaw,
but if that's what went on with that little throwaway I'd rather
be surprised to find out.

What's unrealistic in most sf books is that no two people have the
same name (as I think I've said before on this list).  I'm almost
finished with Dorothy Dunnett's _King Hereafter_ (which I like),
about the real Macbeth.  Do you know how many Harolds and Haralds
there are in that book?
...

> Is Ibronka is a very popular name among Easterners and Dragaerans?
> (Which 
> conflicts with the concept that there are different popular names, i.e. 
> Mario and one other that eludes me at the moment,

Istvan, in _Athyra_.

> which are
> "Dragaeran(s) 
> with an Eastern name.") I doubt very much that Noish-pa would marry and 
> have children with a woman with a Dragaeran name.

I think you're right.  Google suggests that Ibronka is a real
Hungarian name (in which case the accent is on the first
syllable).

> Is Ibronka another Dragaeran with an Eastern name? It doesn't seem
> likely 
> that she would rise in the eyes of other Dragaerans with an Eastern
> name.
...

I suspect it doesn't matter.  Contrary to Scott, though, it seems
to be uncommon for Dragaerans to have Eastern names--at least
enough so that when Vlad hears about Istvan, he surmises that
Istvan is Eastern.

By the way, if anyone is really bored, you can wonder why such
names as Istvan and Tomas are the *only* trace of Christianity
we've seen on Dragaera.  Or are they not Christian?

Jerry Friedman


		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 


From books at bofh.com  Wed Jul 21 19:33:00 2004
From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:33:00 -0700
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
In-Reply-To: <20040722013359.45347.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040720160729.0346b480@mail.access-4-free.com> <20040722013359.45347.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20040722023300.GA5061@bofh.com>

On Wed, Jul 21, 2004 at 06:33:59PM -0700, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> --- Robert Sallade <zardoz at weirdness.com> wrote:
> > Is Ibronka name of one, two, or three people? Roanna's companion, Vlad's
> > grandmother, and a third that Vlad dates.
> 
> I suspect three.  We've been talking and joking about time travel,
> which is what would be required for Vlad to date his own Grandmaw,
> but if that's what went on with that little throwaway I'd rather
> be surprised to find out.

When queried on this long ago (in list time), when this similarity
was first commented on here (that I'm aware of), Steven said something
to the effect of:

"You could see a lot of Steve's in books too."

The implication was that it is a common name and as a result,
no inference can be drawn from it.

I want to say I have a vague recollection that one of Steven's 
ancestors was named Ibronka as well, but I could be mistaken.  It's
not something I remember with conviction.

-Jot "Duplicate This" Powers
-- 
Jot Powers 	<books at bofh.com> 		http://www.bofh.com/books/
"I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" 
	-Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan


From mam at theworld.com  Wed Jul 21 21:14:33 2004
From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:14:33 -0400
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
In-Reply-To: <20040722013359.45347.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0407220011370.1424243-100000@shell01-g>

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004, Jerry Friedman wrote:

#By the way, if anyone is really bored, you can wonder why such
#names as Istvan and Tomas are the *only* trace of Christianity
#we've seen on Dragaera.  Or are they not Christian?

Yes, they are. But my name is Mark, and I'm Jewish, and my ancestors as
far back as anyone has any idea have been Jewish.

Names come into a language and a culture and lose their associations
with their origins.

In point of fact, after >200,000 years no name or word or language would
be recognizable. This is something that Steve has done as an author that
we can try to explain away within Dragaera, or that we can simply refuse
to worry about. I don't have a problem with it.

-- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and
   Philological Busybody
   a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel



From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Wed Jul 21 22:49:08 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:49:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0407220011370.1424243-100000@shell01-g>
References: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0407220011370.1424243-100000@shell01-g>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407212242370.5125@flora05.slac.stanford.edu>


On Thu, 22 Jul 2004, Mark A Mandel wrote:

> In point of fact, after >200,000 years no name or word or language would
> be recognizable.

Given the correction factor of perhaps x30, and the continuous control of
territory by one culture, I don't know if I agree.  For example, when
someone refers to "breaking the stick" from the 6th cycle, is she
translating?  Could someone important who lived the entire time (and was
much at court) single-handedly stabilize the language?

How much has Chinese changed over the last 3k?

Do the Dragaerans have dictionaries?  I'm trying to remember the
categories of books given in _Athyra_ and whether any would be suitable.


From log0n5150 at hotmail.com  Thu Jul 22 12:26:32 2004
From: log0n5150 at hotmail.com (jeff G.)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:26:32 +0000
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
Message-ID: <BAY1-F11e9mgR6k11PB00067955@hotmail.com>






On Thu, 22 Jul 2004, Mark A Mandel wrote:

 > In point of fact, after >200,000 years no name or word or language would
 > be recognizable.

Given the correction factor of perhaps x30, and the continuous control of
territory by one culture, I don't know if I agree.  For example, when
someone refers to "breaking the stick" from the 6th cycle, is she
translating?  Could someone important who lived the entire time (and was
much at court) single-handedly stabilize the language?

<cough> sethra </cough> But could she? Remember the interlude in SL, it 
shows how her tates and personality have changed over time, I would imagine 
her command of the language would as well. Otherwise, she would occasionally 
make a comment that would be out of place (time), and given how rarely she 
speaks, it would have been noted. Still, the question of the effect of 
Sethra Lavode on Dragearean history is a good one, although the answer would 
require a bit of space. (Perhaps another 17 novels, if Steven ever loses 
intrest in Vlad?)

Jeff

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page ? FREE 
download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/



From zardoz at weirdness.com  Thu Jul 22 15:23:13 2004
From: zardoz at weirdness.com (Robert Sallade)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:23:13 -0700
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
In-Reply-To: <BAY1-F11e9mgR6k11PB00067955@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040722130927.031211d0@mail.access-4-free.com>

At 12:26 PM 7/22/04, jeff G. wrote:
>On Thu, 22 Jul 2004, Mark A Mandel wrote:
>
> > In point of fact, after >200,000 years no name or word or language would
> > be recognizable.
>
>Given the correction factor of perhaps x30, and the continuous control of
>territory by one culture, I don't know if I agree.  For example, when
>someone refers to "breaking the stick" from the 6th cycle, is she
>translating?  Could someone important who lived the entire time (and was
>much at court) single-handedly stabilize the language?
>
><cough> sethra </cough> But could she? Remember the interlude in SL, it 
>shows how her tates and personality have changed over time, I would 
>imagine her command of the language would as well. Otherwise, she would 
>occasionally make a comment that would be out of place (time), and given 
>how rarely she speaks, it would have been noted. Still, the question of 
>the effect of Sethra Lavode on Dragearean history is a good one, although 
>the answer would require a bit of space. (Perhaps another 17 novels, if 
>Steven ever loses intrest in Vlad?)

Names once had meaning and there are many books on what names are supposed 
to mean, but no one really cares. Well... maybe the parents care at the 
time they name their child, but after that... <shrug> Names no longer have 
religious significance (except in some tribal cultures). There is very 
little to do with religion in the The Dragaera books, except that 
witchcraft is tied in closely with the Eastern concept of religion. (what 
that concept is we can barley deduce that someone, at some time in the past 
summoned Verra). So I buy that there are common names that the Dragaerans 
use form other races.

Expressions like "breaking the stick" are much like our "pig in a poke." 
They have a meaning long after the original intent is forgotten.

(Please correct me on the next two points if I'm wrong, Mr. Mandel)
         As far as the language goes, drift creates accents first, dialects 
second, and new languages third. Even with a common dictionary English 
speakers have managed to create three distinct dialectic groups: British, 
American, and International. None of which has achieved status as a 
separate language. This has taken about 500 years. This would be equivalent 
to about 15000 Dragaeran years.
         In Dragaeran, Brust's "translations" provide clues that there are 
certainly accents and, in the cases of the separate island nations, 
possibly enough linguistic drift to create dialectic changes. Vlad 
obviously understands the people in Greenaere. The jokes from Aibynn don't 
seem to go over his head, so there is still enough cultural similarity to 
keep abstracts consistent.

Let's look at the general population size. With 200,000 or 400,000 
(depending on who you believe, Verra or Vlad) on Greenaere on an island 
roughly 3300 square miles or roughly 90 people per square mile. It is 
considered a rural, agrarian nation.

(Now we hit the generalities. The numbers that follow are a bit arbitrary 
and probably fall quite short of the actual numbers.)
         Think about the size of the armies Morrolan and Fornia raise. Not 
all of the Dragons will be in on that fight because of  familial 
obligations that preclude siding with either of the leaders, so possibly 
one quarter of the House was involved. Each army was numbered in the tens 
of thousands so let's call it 50,000 each. That's 400,000 in the House. 
Times 17 Houses (yeah the Phoenix have a grand population of One, but it 
should average out) makes 6.8 million. And that's the extremely 
conservative estimate. This would indicate the Empire is the dominant 
culture, at least in the immediate vicinity of that continent.
          Documentation is the one good way to preserve language. Complete 
records in a standard writing system helps to influence how a language 
changes over time. Granted, even in American English there are words that 
are no longer used and are considered archaic, but that could be because of 
rampant undereducation and language misuse by the popular media (a debate 
for some other time). Now who controls the documentary evidence in the 
Empire? the Lyorns. Kragar gets almost all of his information from the 
records that they store. I'm sure that there must be some sort of research 
facility like a library, but I'm also sure that there must be a great deal 
that is meant to be disseminated only to members of the House the records 
pertain to (hence the buttering-up and bribery). So I think it would be 
that House that keeps the drift to a minimum.




From mam at theworld.com  Thu Jul 22 16:51:21 2004
From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:51:21 -0400
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407212242370.5125@flora05.slac.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0407221946190.1485671-100000@shell01-g>

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004, Philip Hart wrote:

#On Thu, 22 Jul 2004, Mark A Mandel wrote:
#
#> In point of fact, after >200,000 years no name or word or language would
#> be recognizable.
#
#Given the correction factor of perhaps x30, and the continuous control of
#territory by one culture, I don't know if I agree.

I was thinking of Easterners.

#  For example, when someone refers to "breaking the stick" from the
#6th cycle, is she translating?

We don't know.

#Could someone important who lived the entire time (and was much at
#court) single-handedly stabilize the language?

Not in our world. It would require magic or something comparable,
constantly affecting the minds of all speakers.

Now, *something* has held back technological evolution for both races,
so maybe there is something. But it's not in the nature of human
language (counting both races as human) to be so stable.

#How much has Chinese changed over the last 3k?

As much as Latin, I think. The near-complete unity of the writing system
across the "dialects" -- languages, by other criteria, such as
intercomprehensibility -- tends to mask this.

#Do the Dragaerans have dictionaries?  I'm trying to remember the
#categories of books given in _Athyra_ and whether any would be suitable.

Those were categories of literature, iirc. They wouldn't include
reference works.

-- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and
   Philological Busybody
   a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel



From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Thu Jul 22 17:03:53 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:03:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0407221946190.1485671-100000@shell01-g>
References: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0407221946190.1485671-100000@shell01-g>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407221655220.5492@flora02.slac.stanford.edu>



On Thu, 22 Jul 2004, Mark A Mandel wrote:

> On Wed, 21 Jul 2004, Philip Hart wrote:
>
> #On Thu, 22 Jul 2004, Mark A Mandel wrote:
> #
> #> In point of fact, after >200,000 years no name or word or language would
> #> be recognizable.
> #
> #Given the correction factor of perhaps x30, and the continuous control of
> #territory by one culture, I don't know if I agree.
>
> I was thinking of Easterners.

Oh - that case is too complicated for me.  Do priests talk to the gods in
a particular language?  How stable have Hebrew and Arabic proven to be?


> #Could someone important who lived the entire time (and was much at
> #court) single-handedly stabilize the language?
>
> Not in our world. It would require magic or something comparable,
> constantly affecting the minds of all speakers.

If Alexander the Great or Julius Caesar was still alive today, and had
spent the intervening time having new adventures and being glamorous,
it seems to me I might be using a much harder language right now.


> Now, *something* has held back technological evolution for both races,
> so maybe there is something. But it's not in the nature of human
> language (counting both races as human) to be so stable.
>



> #How much has Chinese changed over the last 3k?
>
> As much as Latin, I think. The near-complete unity of the writing system
> across the "dialects" -- languages, by other criteria, such as
> intercomprehensibility -- tends to mask this.

Has Latin changed that much?  I think I ought to be able to read the
Vatican newspaper if I could figure out the phrases they use for
"terrorism" and "motion picture" and "chocolate", and relearned classical
Latin.

Also, I've lost track of the thread of the argument, but I think a stable
written language would suffice to prove whatever the point was.


From mam at theworld.com  Thu Jul 22 17:36:12 2004
From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:36:12 -0400
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407221655220.5492@flora02.slac.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0407222024220.1485671-100000@shell01-g>

#Oh - that case is too complicated for me.  Do priests talk to the gods in
#a particular language?  How stable have Hebrew and Arabic proven to be?

Hebrew was not used as a vernacular language (spoken language of
everyday life) for 2000 years or more.  Modern Spoken Hebrew is quite
different from classical Hebrew, which itself comprises many layers
spanning over a thousand years of history.  A coworker of mine, and
native Israeli living in the US, told me that while she has no trouble
reading the (Hebrew) Bible, her children, who were growing up in the US
speaking modern Hebrew at home and attending American schools, could
make no sense of it: it was as foreign to them as, perhaps, Chaucer or
Aelfric are to us.

In my previous post I mentioned Lebanese Arabic.  The language spoken on
the street varies so widely across the Arabic-speaking world that a
Moroccan and a Saudi, speaking colloquially, will find it difficult to
impossible to understand each other.  When Arab speakers meet, they move
"up the scale" to more and more formal, standardized Arabic to reach a
level where they can understand each other.

#> #Could someone important who lived the entire time (and was much at
#> #court) single-handedly stabilize the language?
#>
#> Not in our world. It would require magic or something comparable,
#> constantly affecting the minds of all speakers.
#
#If Alexander the Great or Julius Caesar was still alive today, and had
#spent the intervening time having new adventures and being glamorous,
#it seems to me I might be using a much harder language right now.

Nonsense.  I mean that literally.  No language is "hard" to its native
speakers, until they get into reading and writing and the levels of
formalized and standardized language, such as the "dialect" of the
biomedical texts that I work with every day.

#> Now, *something* has held back technological evolution for both races,
#> so maybe there is something. But it's not in the nature of human
#> language (counting both races as human) to be so stable.

#> #How much has Chinese changed over the last 3k?
#>
#> As much as Latin, I think. The near-complete unity of the writing system
#> across the "dialects" -- languages, by other criteria, such as
#> intercomprehensibility -- tends to mask this.

#Has Latin changed that much?  I think I ought to be able to read the
#Vatican newspaper if I could figure out the phrases they use for
#"terrorism" and "motion picture" and "chocolate", and relearned classical
#Latin.

I'm talking about French, Spanish, Portuguese, Catalan, Galician,
Sardinian, Romanian, Italian,...: the Romance languages.  That's what
Latin has changed into, in the normal development of a living language.
The Latin of the Vatican is a dead language, preserved for cultural
purposes and nobody's native language for millennia.

-- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian,
   Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody
   a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]




From mam at TheWorld.com  Thu Jul 22 17:23:50 2004
From: mam at TheWorld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:23:50 -0400
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040722130927.031211d0@mail.access-4-free.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0407221956290.1485671-100000@shell01-g>

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004, Robert Sallade wrote:

#At 12:26 PM 7/22/04, jeff G. wrote:
#>On Thu, 22 Jul 2004, Mark A Mandel wrote:
#>
#> > In point of fact, after >200,000 years no name or word or language would
#> > be recognizable.

#(Please correct me on the next two points if I'm wrong, Mr. Mandel)
#         As far as the language goes, drift creates accents first, dialects
#second, and new languages third.

Eh, that's in lay language. "A language is a dialect with an army." The
progression is generally right, -- though there may be some exceptions
-- even though you cannot draw any clean boundaries between the
"levels".

# Even with a common dictionary English
#speakers have managed to create three distinct dialectic groups: British,
#American, and International.

Far, far more. American English is no more unified than American chili,
and British English is orders of magnitude more diverse. And
"International English" is no more a single dialect than "European" or
"Romance" is a single language.  It's more of a marketing or catchall
term than anything else.  Just listen to the English of, let's say,
native speakers of Tamil, Singapore Cantonese, Japanese, and Lebanese
Arabic, and you will be quickly disabused of any such notion.

# None of which has achieved status as a separate language.

Have you ever listened to conversational Singapore English?  Or, for
that matter, Jamaican English. The movie "The Harder They Come" was
subtitled for release in the English-speaking world at large.

# This has taken about 500 years. This would be equivalent
#to about 15000 Dragaeran years.
#         In Dragaeran, Brust's "translations" provide clues that there are
#certainly accents and, in the cases of the separate island nations,
#possibly enough linguistic drift to create dialectic changes. Vlad
#obviously understands the people in Greenaere. The jokes from Aibynn don't
#seem to go over his head, so there is still enough cultural similarity to
#keep abstracts consistent.
#
#Let's look at the general population size. With 200,000 or 400,000
#(depending on who you believe, Verra or Vlad) on Greenaere on an island
#roughly 3300 square miles or roughly 90 people per square mile. It is
#considered a rural, agrarian nation.
#
#(Now we hit the generalities. The numbers that follow are a bit arbitrary
#and probably fall quite short of the actual numbers.)
#         Think about the size of the armies Morrolan and Fornia raise. Not
#all of the Dragons will be in on that fight because of  familial
#obligations that preclude siding with either of the leaders, so possibly
#one quarter of the House was involved. Each army was numbered in the tens
#of thousands so let's call it 50,000 each. That's 400,000 in the House.
#Times 17 Houses (yeah the Phoenix have a grand population of One, but it
#should average out) makes 6.8 million. And that's the extremely
#conservative estimate. This would indicate the Empire is the dominant
#culture, at least in the immediate vicinity of that continent.

Someplace or other Vlad says that the Teckla constitute 90% of the
population.

#          Documentation is the one good way to preserve language.

Written language, yes.  The stabilizing effect of a writing system on
spoken language is much, much weaker; and remember that many Dragaerans
are illiterate.

#[...] Now who controls the documentary evidence in the
#Empire? the Lyorns. Kragar gets almost all of his information from the
#records that they store. I'm sure that there must be some sort of research
#facility like a library, but I'm also sure that there must be a great deal
#that is meant to be disseminated only to members of the House the records
#pertain to (hence the buttering-up and bribery). So I think it would be
#that House that keeps the drift to a minimum.

Vide supra. :-)

-- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian,
   Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody
   a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel



From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com  Thu Jul 22 17:56:05 2004
From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:56:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0407220011370.1424243-100000@shell01-g>
Message-ID: <20040723005605.68974.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Mark A Mandel <mam at theworld.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Jul 2004, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> 
> #By the way, if anyone is really bored, you can wonder why such
> #names as Istvan and Tomas are the *only* trace of Christianity
> #we've seen on Dragaera.  Or are they not Christian?
> 
> Yes, they are. But my name is Mark, and I'm Jewish, and my ancestors as
> far back as anyone has any idea have been Jewish.

Well, Stephanos and Thomas were Greek names before anyone was
a Christian, but the only reason they were adopted in Hungary
and Spain was Christianity.

> Names come into a language and a culture and lose their associations
> with their origins.
> 
> In point of fact, after >200,000 years no name or word or language would
> be recognizable. This is something that Steve has done as an author that
> we can try to explain away within Dragaera, or that we can simply refuse
> to worry about. I don't have a problem with it.

Right.  It's not really a problem.  He needs a human language
for the Fenarians so he uses the language of his ancestors.  We're
not really supposed to think that Noish-pa is a native speaker
of twentieth-century Hungarian.

It just seems to one part of my mind that if Istvan is a Fenarian
name, the Fenarians should have big celebrations on Dec. 26

Jerry Friedman


	
		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!
http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/


From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Thu Jul 22 18:16:06 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 18:16:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0407222024220.1485671-100000@shell01-g>
References: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0407222024220.1485671-100000@shell01-g>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407221740290.5492@flora02.slac.stanford.edu>



On Thu, 22 Jul 2004, Mark A Mandel wrote:

> #Oh - that case is too complicated for me.  Do priests talk to the gods in
> #a particular language?  How stable have Hebrew and Arabic proven to be?
>
> Hebrew was not used as a vernacular language (spoken language of
> everyday life) for 2000 years or more...

As noted in the snippage, I think the question that was at hand
can be answered on the basis of a stable written language - I should add
the proviso that instead of Eastern->Dragaeran it would be
Dragaeran->Eastern + Vlad's confusion.


> In my previous post I mentioned Lebanese Arabic.  The language spoken on
> the street varies so widely across the Arabic-speaking world that a
> Moroccan and a Saudi, speaking colloquially, will find it difficult to
> impossible to understand each other.  When Arab speakers meet, they move
> "up the scale" to more and more formal, standardized Arabic to reach a
> level where they can understand each other.

I've read this has proved to be a problem in the US occupation of Iraq -
some of our translators had the wrong version.  Otoh I thought that
converting from one version to another was fairly straightforward -
phoneme A->B, B-> C, D->E.


> #If Alexander the Great or Julius Caesar was still alive today, and had
> #spent the intervening time having new adventures and being glamorous,
> #it seems to me I might be using a much harder language right now.
>
> Nonsense.  I mean that literally.  No language is "hard" to its native
> speakers, until they get into reading and writing and the levels of
> formalized and standardized language, such as the "dialect" of the
> biomedical texts that I work with every day.

Note that I'm writing.  And in fact I'm mostly trying to write in a style
somewhat elevated with respect to normal speech.

And for that matter, I'm multilingual, and I and my multilingual friends
>from different countries all think you're wrong on this point.  All human
languages have more or less the same degree of expressivity, but unless
you can for example show that full spoken command of say Japanese is
achieved by children at the same age as say Spanish, and that bilingual
children learn any two languages with equal facility, I'm going to persist
in that opinion.  And even so I would be likely to ascribe lack of
differences to our amazing childhood language acquisition mechanism and
would ask for evidence that for any pair of languages adult native
speakers of one find the other as easy to acquire as v.v.


From michaelangelo at tripp-russo.com  Thu Jul 22 20:00:40 2004
From: michaelangelo at tripp-russo.com (Michael Angelo Tripp-Russo)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:00:40 -0500
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040722130927.031211d0@mail.access-4-free.com>
Message-ID: <41007F58.3090004@tripp-russo.com>



Robert Sallade wrote:

> There is very little to do with religion in the The Dragaera books, 
> except that witchcraft is tied in closely with the Eastern concept of 
> religion.

I disagree.

In Dragaera 'Gods' exist (like really to general people they are gods) 
what we call today 'Greek Mythology' was in the past considered 
Religion, (indeed it is still so to some, but I would guess very few). 
Ancient Greeks were polytheistic people, I'd say that is exactly how I'd 
term Dragaera as well, there isn't AFAIK and discussion about 
Monotheistic groups existing on Dragaera -- probably because there 
aren't or are very few.

 From our vantage point the Halls of Judgment isn't necessarily very 
religious on the face of it, but when you think about the fact that near 
no one returns from there, most dead bodies (at least those that have 
someone to do it) are given a rite and anointment before being sent off 
(this is essentially a religious ritual), and the people on Dragaera 
choose to believe this is the way of their world with not much 'proof' 
given to the common man, just to name a few. I'd say choosing those 
beliefs is an act of religious faith. I would gamble that you could find 
100 or more references to religious behavior/beliefs/story relations in 
the Dragaera books.

Point. Vlad interacts directly with a goddess, one he has fealty for, 
and several points are made of how this affects him and his actions.

Point. Morrolan (?nuff said)

I could go on.....





From zardoz at weirdness.com  Thu Jul 22 23:03:34 2004
From: zardoz at weirdness.com (Robert Sallade)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:03:34 -0700
Subject: Linguistics and population
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0407221956290.1485671-100000@shell01-g>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040722130927.031211d0@mail.access-4-free.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040722222652.02c59890@mail.access-4-free.com>

At 05:23 PM 7/22/04, Mark A Mandel wrote:
>#         As far as the language goes, drift creates accents first, dialects
>#second, and new languages third.
>
>Eh, that's in lay language. "A language is a dialect with an army." The
>progression is generally right, -- though there may be some exceptions
>-- even though you cannot draw any clean boundaries between the
>"levels".

Yeah... there is also the flux from popular usage and slang that sometimes 
blurs the distinctions.

># Even with a common dictionary English
>#speakers have managed to create three distinct dialectic groups: British,
>#American, and International.
>
>Far, far more. American English is no more unified than American chili,
>and British English is orders of magnitude more diverse. [...snip...]

Just trying to be general. Guess I was way too general

>#(Now we hit the generalities. The numbers that follow are a bit arbitrary
>#and probably fall quite short of the actual numbers.)
>#         Think about the size of the armies Morrolan and Fornia raise. Not
>#all of the Dragons will be in on that fight because of  familial
>#obligations that preclude siding with either of the leaders, so possibly
>#one quarter of the House was involved. Each army was numbered in the tens
>#of thousands so let's call it 50,000 each. That's 400,000 in the House.
>#Times 17 Houses (yeah the Phoenix have a grand population of One, but it
>#should average out) makes 6.8 million. And that's the extremely
>#conservative estimate. This would indicate the Empire is the dominant
>#culture, at least in the immediate vicinity of that continent.
>
>Someplace or other Vlad says that the Teckla constitute 90% of the
>population.

The number of Dragons in the army is inflated anyway. The conscripts 
(Teckla) helped fill out the numbers, but I think about 7 to 10 million is 
a good guess. you mentioned in another post:

         Now, *something* has held back technological evolution for both 
races,
         so maybe there is something. But it's not in the nature of human
         language (counting both races as human) to be so stable.

I believe that in Dragon, Vlad relates why armor and the technology of 
battle has been held in check. Basically because of the sorcerous arms 
race. As technology is mostly driven by the need to improve defensive 
capability, and the Dragaerans rely on sorcery, it is only logical that 
they would stay much the same. Also look how many lifetimes we are seeing 
in since the beginning of the Empire: about 100 lifetimes (at 2000 per). In 
our terms that is about 7000 years (at 70 per). It's taken us about that 
long to get where we are and we were lucky enough to have brilliant people 
looking for technological answers to problems. The Dragaerans have 
brilliant people looking for sorcerous answers to problems.

Where am I going with this? Not the foggiest...no wait, oh, yeah...

The technological state assumes that the Empire is still agrarian and 
therefore cannot sustain an extremely large population so I'd think that 15 
to 20 million would be the best it could do. With that number of people 
there is bound to be socio-economic and geographical differences in the 
manner of speech.

>#          Documentation is the one good way to preserve language.
>
>Written language, yes.  The stabilizing effect of a writing system on
>spoken language is much, much weaker; and remember that many Dragaerans
>are illiterate.

Most, I would think, as most Teckla are illiterate (with notable 
exceptions) and they constitute the majority of the population. The nobles, 
including those at Vlad's low rank (read that how you will), seem to have 
all their letters. I'm sure that there are a few of those that have no 
problem having their peasants taught how to read. To allow someone to do 
their own paperwork, especially their own taxes, relieves that burden from 
the noble's shoulders. It is also evident that there aren't many that do 
it, especially with the big turnouts for Kelly-and-crew's classes. Yeah, 
enlightened subjugation hardly ever works, but this is fantasy after all...

>#[...] Now who controls the documentary evidence in the
>#Empire? the Lyorns. Kragar gets almost all of his information from the
>#records that they store. I'm sure that there must be some sort of research
>#facility like a library, but I'm also sure that there must be a great deal
>#that is meant to be disseminated only to members of the House the records
>#pertain to (hence the buttering-up and bribery). So I think it would be
>#that House that keeps the drift to a minimum.
>
>Vide supra. :-)

geez...Latin......I barely get English
stab in the dark....."Clearly in Authority"?

From bonham15 at cox.net  Thu Jul 22 23:21:24 2004
From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 01:21:24 -0500
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040722130927.031211d0@mail.access-4-free.com>
Message-ID: <000801c4707d$47a9cdb0$6701a8c0@user79dn2jmjai>

wouldn't the orb act as a repository of knowledge and culture as far as the
empire is concerned?  every citizen is mentally linked to it, so who is to
say the orb doesn't act on societal cohesion on some sublevel?

andy
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert Sallade" <zardoz at weirdness.com>
To: <dragaera at dragaera.info>
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: Name similarities and pure speculation


> At 12:26 PM 7/22/04, jeff G. wrote:
> >On Thu, 22 Jul 2004, Mark A Mandel wrote:
> >
> > > In point of fact, after >200,000 years no name or word or language
would
> > > be recognizable.
> >
> >Given the correction factor of perhaps x30, and the continuous control of
> >territory by one culture, I don't know if I agree.  For example, when
> >someone refers to "breaking the stick" from the 6th cycle, is she
> >translating?  Could someone important who lived the entire time (and was
> >much at court) single-handedly stabilize the language?
> >
> ><cough> sethra </cough> But could she? Remember the interlude in SL, it
> >shows how her tates and personality have changed over time, I would
> >imagine her command of the language would as well. Otherwise, she would
> >occasionally make a comment that would be out of place (time), and given
> >how rarely she speaks, it would have been noted. Still, the question of
> >the effect of Sethra Lavode on Dragearean history is a good one, although
> >the answer would require a bit of space. (Perhaps another 17 novels, if
> >Steven ever loses intrest in Vlad?)
>
> Names once had meaning and there are many books on what names are supposed
> to mean, but no one really cares. Well... maybe the parents care at the
> time they name their child, but after that... <shrug> Names no longer have
> religious significance (except in some tribal cultures). There is very
> little to do with religion in the The Dragaera books, except that
> witchcraft is tied in closely with the Eastern concept of religion. (what
> that concept is we can barley deduce that someone, at some time in the
past
> summoned Verra). So I buy that there are common names that the Dragaerans
> use form other races.
>
> Expressions like "breaking the stick" are much like our "pig in a poke."
> They have a meaning long after the original intent is forgotten.
>
> (Please correct me on the next two points if I'm wrong, Mr. Mandel)
>          As far as the language goes, drift creates accents first,
dialects
> second, and new languages third. Even with a common dictionary English
> speakers have managed to create three distinct dialectic groups: British,
> American, and International. None of which has achieved status as a
> separate language. This has taken about 500 years. This would be
equivalent
> to about 15000 Dragaeran years.
>          In Dragaeran, Brust's "translations" provide clues that there are
> certainly accents and, in the cases of the separate island nations,
> possibly enough linguistic drift to create dialectic changes. Vlad
> obviously understands the people in Greenaere. The jokes from Aibynn don't
> seem to go over his head, so there is still enough cultural similarity to
> keep abstracts consistent.
>
> Let's look at the general population size. With 200,000 or 400,000
> (depending on who you believe, Verra or Vlad) on Greenaere on an island
> roughly 3300 square miles or roughly 90 people per square mile. It is
> considered a rural, agrarian nation.
>
> (Now we hit the generalities. The numbers that follow are a bit arbitrary
> and probably fall quite short of the actual numbers.)
>          Think about the size of the armies Morrolan and Fornia raise. Not
> all of the Dragons will be in on that fight because of  familial
> obligations that preclude siding with either of the leaders, so possibly
> one quarter of the House was involved. Each army was numbered in the tens
> of thousands so let's call it 50,000 each. That's 400,000 in the House.
> Times 17 Houses (yeah the Phoenix have a grand population of One, but it
> should average out) makes 6.8 million. And that's the extremely
> conservative estimate. This would indicate the Empire is the dominant
> culture, at least in the immediate vicinity of that continent.
>           Documentation is the one good way to preserve language. Complete
> records in a standard writing system helps to influence how a language
> changes over time. Granted, even in American English there are words that
> are no longer used and are considered archaic, but that could be because
of
> rampant undereducation and language misuse by the popular media (a debate
> for some other time). Now who controls the documentary evidence in the
> Empire? the Lyorns. Kragar gets almost all of his information from the
> records that they store. I'm sure that there must be some sort of research
> facility like a library, but I'm also sure that there must be a great deal
> that is meant to be disseminated only to members of the House the records
> pertain to (hence the buttering-up and bribery). So I think it would be
> that House that keeps the drift to a minimum.
>
>



From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com  Thu Jul 22 23:23:32 2004
From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:23:32 -0700
Subject: Linguistics and population
Message-ID: <BAY22-F294PQt4NvflX0001c27b@hotmail.com>

See Below.


>From: Robert Sallade <zardoz at weirdness.com>
>To: dragaera at dragaera.info
>Subject: Re: Linguistics and population
>Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:03:34 -0700
>
>At 05:23 PM 7/22/04, Mark A Mandel wrote:
>>#         As far as the language goes, drift creates accents first, 
>>dialects
>>#second, and new languages third.
>>
>>Eh, that's in lay language. "A language is a dialect with an army." The
>>progression is generally right, -- though there may be some exceptions
>>-- even though you cannot draw any clean boundaries between the
>>"levels".
>
>Yeah... there is also the flux from popular usage and slang that sometimes 
>blurs the distinctions.
>
>># Even with a common dictionary English
>>#speakers have managed to create three distinct dialectic groups: British,
>>#American, and International.
>>
>>Far, far more. American English is no more unified than American chili,
>>and British English is orders of magnitude more diverse. [...snip...]
>
>Just trying to be general. Guess I was way too general
>
>>#(Now we hit the generalities. The numbers that follow are a bit arbitrary
>>#and probably fall quite short of the actual numbers.)
>>#         Think about the size of the armies Morrolan and Fornia raise. 
>>Not
>>#all of the Dragons will be in on that fight because of  familial
>>#obligations that preclude siding with either of the leaders, so possibly
>>#one quarter of the House was involved. Each army was numbered in the tens
>>#of thousands so let's call it 50,000 each. That's 400,000 in the House.
>>#Times 17 Houses (yeah the Phoenix have a grand population of One, but it
>>#should average out) makes 6.8 million. And that's the extremely
>>#conservative estimate. This would indicate the Empire is the dominant
>>#culture, at least in the immediate vicinity of that continent.
>>
>>Someplace or other Vlad says that the Teckla constitute 90% of the
>>population.
>
>The number of Dragons in the army is inflated anyway. The conscripts 
>(Teckla) helped fill out the numbers, but I think about 7 to 10 million is 
>a good guess. you mentioned in another post:
>
>         Now, *something* has held back technological evolution for both 
>races,
>         so maybe there is something. But it's not in the nature of human
>         language (counting both races as human) to be so stable.
>
>I believe that in Dragon, Vlad relates why armor and the technology of 
>battle has been held in check. Basically because of the sorcerous arms 
>race. As technology is mostly driven by the need to improve defensive 
>capability, and the Dragaerans rely on sorcery, it is only logical that 
>they would stay much the same. Also look how many lifetimes we are seeing 
>in since the beginning of the Empire: about 100 lifetimes (at 2000 per). In 
>our terms that is about 7000 years (at 70 per). It's taken us about that 
>long to get where we are and we were lucky enough to have brilliant people 
>looking for technological answers to problems. The Dragaerans have 
>brilliant people looking for sorcerous answers to problems.
>
>Where am I going with this? Not the foggiest...no wait, oh, yeah...
>
>The technological state assumes that the Empire is still agrarian and 
>therefore cannot sustain an extremely large population so I'd think that 15 
>to 20 million would be the best it could do. With that number of people 
>there is bound to be socio-economic and geographical differences in the 
>manner of speech.
>
>>#          Documentation is the one good way to preserve language.
>>
>>Written language, yes.  The stabilizing effect of a writing system on
>>spoken language is much, much weaker; and remember that many Dragaerans
>>are illiterate.
>
>Most, I would think, as most Teckla are illiterate (with notable 
>exceptions) and they constitute the majority of the population. The nobles, 
>including those at Vlad's low rank (read that how you will), seem to have 
>all their letters. I'm sure that there are a few of those that have no 
>problem having their peasants taught how to read. To allow someone to do 
>their own paperwork, especially their own taxes, relieves that burden from 
>the noble's shoulders. It is also evident that there aren't many that do 
>it, especially with the big turnouts for Kelly-and-crew's classes. Yeah, 
>enlightened subjugation hardly ever works, but this is fantasy after all...
>
>>#[...] Now who controls the documentary evidence in the
>>#Empire? the Lyorns. Kragar gets almost all of his information from the
>>#records that they store. I'm sure that there must be some sort of 
>>research
>>#facility like a library, but I'm also sure that there must be a great 
>>deal
>>#that is meant to be disseminated only to members of the House the records
>>#pertain to (hence the buttering-up and bribery). So I think it would be
>>#that House that keeps the drift to a minimum.
>>



>>Vide supra. :-)

Visualize (the writing) Superior

James Griffin,
Still Another Vlad faN
See Above






>geez...Latin......I barely get English
>stab in the dark....."Clearly in Authority"?

_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee? 
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963



From zardoz at weirdness.com  Thu Jul 22 23:25:32 2004
From: zardoz at weirdness.com (Robert Sallade)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:25:32 -0700
Subject: religion
In-Reply-To: <41007F58.3090004@tripp-russo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040722130927.031211d0@mail.access-4-free.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040722230634.02c5c5c0@mail.access-4-free.com>

At 08:00 PM 7/22/04, Michael Angelo Tripp-Russo wrote:


>Robert Sallade wrote:
>
>>There is very little to do with religion in the The Dragaera books, 
>>except that witchcraft is tied in closely with the Eastern concept of religion.
>
>I disagree.
>
>In Dragaera 'Gods' exist (like really to general people they are gods) 
>what we call today 'Greek Mythology' was in the past considered Religion, 
>(indeed it is still so to some, but I would guess very few). Ancient 
>Greeks were polytheistic people, I'd say that is exactly how I'd term 
>Dragaera as well, there isn't AFAIK and discussion about Monotheistic 
>groups existing on Dragaera -- probably because there aren't or are very few.
>
>Point. Vlad interacts directly with a goddess, one he has fealty for, and 
>several points are made of how this affects him and his actions.
>
>Point. Morrolan ('nuff said)
>
>I could go on.....

I'll have to admit that I forgot to return to this portion of my e-mail. I 
meant to include my thoughts on how Dragaerans view the gods.

Both Vlad and Morrolan are special cases. They were both raised in the 
Eastern tradition and therefore view the gods differently than Dragaerans. 
They have also directly interacted with more than just one god. Of those 
still walking the planet, I think only Zerika, The Necromancer, Aliera, and 
Sethra can say that they have done the same.

The main view is that the gods are simply an extreme form of wizard. They 
have learned how not to die for one and probably have learned how to do a 
great many other things. The aforementioned people have seem and conversed 
directly with the gods and have said as much to the general public so they 
know they exist in a real sense.

The alters, shrines, and temples mentioned in the books are places where 
people can ask favors of other people that have greater resources than 
themselves. If someone actually has a favor granted they tell other people 
how they asked and who they asked. It then becomes formulaic and eventually 
ritualistic. Even the death rites are simply a sign of respect to the dead. 
According to the books, the soul leaves the body after three days 
regardless of whether the body is left to rot in a bog or sent over 
Deathsgate. Then it's either the Paths or the Plane.

Does this mean that the Dragaerans are polytheistic? Not really. They don't 
view the LoJ as supreme beings to be held in awe because they control 
destinies (well they sort of do, but only by keeping the Jenoine off the 
planet). At best they respect them for the powers the LoJ have (or seem to 
have) and pay homage in hopes of a boon.



From zardoz at weirdness.com  Thu Jul 22 23:43:26 2004
From: zardoz at weirdness.com (Robert Sallade)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:43:26 -0700
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
In-Reply-To: <000801c4707d$47a9cdb0$6701a8c0@user79dn2jmjai>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040722130927.031211d0@mail.access-4-free.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040722232827.02c68e50@mail.access-4-free.com>

At 11:21 PM 7/22/04, bonham15 wrote:
>wouldn't the orb act as a repository of knowledge and culture as far as the
>empire is concerned?  every citizen is mentally linked to it, so who is to
>say the orb doesn't act on societal cohesion on some sublevel?
>
>andy

Opinion: The orb is a conglomeration of all the personalities that have 
merged with it over the course of the Empires existence. It would have the 
same sort of influence as a trusted advisor on the Emperor/Empress. This 
would only be within the court and would pertain only to matters of empire 
management.

AFAIK the orb only provides knowledge to the one merged with it. The "link" 
is a means by which citizens can use sorcery by being a conduit to the 
Great Sea of Chaos.



From rone at ennui.org  Thu Jul 22 23:46:06 2004
From: rone at ennui.org (rone)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:46:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
In-Reply-To: <000801c4707d$47a9cdb0$6701a8c0@user79dn2jmjai>
Message-ID: <20040723064606.3016726CC0@boredom.ennui.org>

bonham15 writes:
  wouldn't the orb act as a repository of knowledge and culture as far as the
  empire is concerned?  every citizen is mentally linked to it, so who is to
  say the orb doesn't act on societal cohesion on some sublevel?
  
I'd love to see the Orb burn out the mind of any Dragaeran who says,
"My bad."
  
rone
-- 
{Regarding SCO's claims against Linux,} the idea that I came up with is
that Linux should claim to be a parody of UNIX, since parody is Fair Use
and Protected Free Speech and all that.
				- Anthony de Boer <abuse at leftmind.net>


From matthew at infodancer.org  Fri Jul 23 00:39:10 2004
From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 02:39:10 -0500
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040722232827.02c68e50@mail.access-4-free.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040722130927.031211d0@mail.access-4-free.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040722232827.02c68e50@mail.access-4-free.com>
Message-ID: <20040723073910.GC1766@infodancer.org>

On Thu, Jul 22, 2004 at 11:43:26PM -0700, Robert Sallade <zardoz at weirdness.com> wrote:
> At 11:21 PM 7/22/04, bonham15 wrote:
> >wouldn't the orb act as a repository of knowledge and culture as far as the
> >empire is concerned?  every citizen is mentally linked to it, so who is to
> >say the orb doesn't act on societal cohesion on some sublevel?
> Opinion: The orb is a conglomeration of all the personalities that have 
> merged with it over the course of the Empires existence. It would have the 
> same sort of influence as a trusted advisor on the Emperor/Empress. This 
> would only be within the court and would pertain only to matters of empire 
> management.
> 
> AFAIK the orb only provides knowledge to the one merged with it. The "link" 
> is a means by which citizens can use sorcery by being a conduit to the 
> Great Sea of Chaos.

No doubt this is the official line. I wonder if there are any 
Dragaereans who wear tinfoil hats?

(As an aside... surely you didn't like that movie enough to make 
it your username?)

-- 
Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org)
Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt
Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp
Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/weblog/index.jsp


From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov  Fri Jul 23 04:40:00 2004
From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:40:00 -0400
Subject: Linguistics and population
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040722130927.031211d0@mail.access-4-free.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040722222652.02c59890@mail.access-4-free.com>
Message-ID: <4100F910.9010804@email.ers.usda.gov>



Robert Sallade wrote:

>
> I believe that in Dragon, Vlad relates why armor and the technology of 
> battle has been held in check. Basically because of the sorcerous arms 
> race. As technology is mostly driven by the need to improve defensive 
> capability, and the Dragaerans rely on sorcery, it is only logical 
> that they would stay much the same.
>
?  You've lost me, here.  Are you saying that *all* technology is mostly 
defensive driven?  That's clearly wrong; cf. Gimpel's =The Medieval 
Machine= for just one selection of counterexamples.  Or are you saying 
that military technology is mostly defensive driven?  Again, I'd have to 
disagree.  Most of the 20th century arms race seems to have been driven 
by the need for offensive capability, and I think you could make the 
same case for the 16th-17th century revolution in arms as well.  The 
very most one could claim is that technology is equally driven by both, 
as one side tries to outdo the other.  You can see that phenomenon 
happening most clearly in the evolution of the capital ship from about 
1855 to 1940-ish.  But since then, more effort has gone to the offensive 
side of the scale, I feel.

>
>
> The technological state assumes that the Empire is still agrarian and 
> therefore cannot sustain an extremely large population so I'd think 
> that 15 to 20 million would be the best it could do. With that number 
> of people there is bound to be socio-economic and geographical 
> differences in the manner of speech.
>
This seems much too conservative.  Agrarian France had 26M+; Britain, 
5.6M+.  Europe as a whole could not have been less than 60M, and the 
Empire is *at least* as large as Europe, to judge from travelling times 
(before teleportation, that is).  China must have had at least 100M. . . 
. ah, I just pulled out my Braudel.  In 1650, he cites a population for 
europe (including European Russia) of 100M; for Asia, of  250-330M; for 
Africa, of 100M.  Your figures would lead to an extremely depopulated 
Empire, by human--er, Easterner (-: --standards.  Not impossible, if the 
birthrate is extremely low.  But to be that low, I'd say that all our 
expectations of what an Empire is, or does, or functions would be wildly 
off; the scale simply wouldn't translate to any experiences you care to 
name.

There are hints.  We certainly see noble families with few offspring 
(although one would suspect the Teckla to offset this, and if they make 
up 90% of the population, they probably do).  OTOH, we also see an 
Empire large enough & complicated enough to have as one of its main 
functions the balancing of trade of natural resources & food from one 
part of itself to the other.  So it has to be more than a simple 
agrarian society.

Finally, if the Empire *is* as depopulated as you would guess, based 
largely on the difference in life expectancy, what of the Easterners? 
 *They* should be plentiful, & pushing on the boundaries in their 
teeming hordes constantly.  Yet over time, one gets the impression that 
both sides have pushed themselves into equilibrium.  the Dragaerans have 
advantages, of course.  But one gets the impression that the Empire has 
just a bit of population pressure within itself helping to turn the 
attention of various warlords eastwardly.

Snarkhunter



From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Fri Jul 23 08:24:31 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:24:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Linguistics and population
In-Reply-To: <4100F910.9010804@email.ers.usda.gov>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040722130927.031211d0@mail.access-4-free.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20040722222652.02c59890@mail.access-4-free.com>
 <4100F910.9010804@email.ers.usda.gov>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407230819200.23345@flora02.slac.stanford.edu>



On Fri, 23 Jul 2004, Ken Koester wrote:

> This seems much too conservative.  Agrarian France had 26M+; Britain,
> 5.6M+.  Europe as a whole could not have been less than 60M, and the
> Empire is *at least* as large as Europe, to judge from travelling times
> (before teleportation, that is).  China must have had at least 100M. . .
> . ah, I just pulled out my Braudel.  In 1650, he cites a population for
> europe (including European Russia) of 100M; for Asia, of  250-330M; for
> Africa, of 100M.  Your figures would lead to an extremely depopulated
> Empire, by human--er, Easterner (-: --standards.  Not impossible, if the
> birthrate is extremely low.  But to be that low, I'd say that all our
> expectations of what an Empire is, or does, or functions would be wildly
> off; the scale simply wouldn't translate to any experiences you care to
> name.


I've long wondered how the agrarian Dragaerans (say that 3x fast) managed
to cope with the overcast.  Perhaps they've been experiencing diminishing
crop yields for many cycles now...

Also maintaining good topsoil for 200k years is probably difficult.


From jhereg69 at earthlink.net  Fri Jul 23 08:42:42 2004
From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:42:42 -0400
Subject: Linguistics and population
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407230819200.23345@flora02.slac.stanford.edu>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040722130927.031211d0@mail.access-4-free.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040722222652.02c59890@mail.access-4-free.com> <4100F910.9010804@email.ers.usda.gov> <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407230819200.23345@flora02.slac.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <410131F2.2030106@earthlink.net>

Philip Hart wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 23 Jul 2004, Ken Koester wrote:
> 
> 
>>This seems much too conservative.  Agrarian France had 26M+; Britain,
>>5.6M+.  Europe as a whole could not have been less than 60M, and the
>>Empire is *at least* as large as Europe, to judge from travelling times
>>(before teleportation, that is).  China must have had at least 100M. . .
>>. ah, I just pulled out my Braudel.  In 1650, he cites a population for
>>europe (including European Russia) of 100M; for Asia, of  250-330M; for
>>Africa, of 100M.  Your figures would lead to an extremely depopulated
>>Empire, by human--er, Easterner (-: --standards.  Not impossible, if the
>>birthrate is extremely low.  But to be that low, I'd say that all our
>>expectations of what an Empire is, or does, or functions would be wildly
>>off; the scale simply wouldn't translate to any experiences you care to
>>name.
> 
> 
> 
> I've long wondered how the agrarian Dragaerans (say that 3x fast) managed
> to cope with the overcast.  Perhaps they've been experiencing diminishing
> crop yields for many cycles now...
> 
> Also maintaining good topsoil for 200k years is probably difficult.

Magic?

Jose
-- 
Jose Marquez                       \  Cthulhu 2004
jhereg69 at earthlink.net              \  Why vote for
http://home.earthlink.net/~jhereg69  \  the lesser evil?



From zizban at adelphia.net  Fri Jul 23 08:41:06 2004
From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:41:06 -0400
Subject: Linguistics and population
In-Reply-To: <410131F2.2030106@earthlink.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040722130927.031211d0@mail.access-4-free.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040722222652.02c59890@mail.access-4-free.com> <4100F910.9010804@email.ers.usda.gov> <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407230819200.23345@flora02.slac.stanford.edu> <410131F2.2030106@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B5F7B52D-DCBE-11D8-889E-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net>


On Jul 23, 2004, at 11:42 AM, Jose Marquez wrote:

> Philip Hart wrote:
>> On Fri, 23 Jul 2004, Ken Koester wrote:
>>> This seems much too conservative.  Agrarian France had 26M+; Britain,
>>> 5.6M+.  Europe as a whole could not have been less than 60M, and the
>>> Empire is *at least* as large as Europe, to judge from travelling 
>>> times
>>> (before teleportation, that is).  China must have had at least 100M. 
>>> . .
>>> . ah, I just pulled out my Braudel.  In 1650, he cites a population 
>>> for
>>> europe (including European Russia) of 100M; for Asia, of  250-330M; 
>>> for
>>> Africa, of 100M.  Your figures would lead to an extremely depopulated
>>> Empire, by human--er, Easterner (-: --standards.  Not impossible, if 
>>> the
>>> birthrate is extremely low.  But to be that low, I'd say that all our
>>> expectations of what an Empire is, or does, or functions would be 
>>> wildly
>>> off; the scale simply wouldn't translate to any experiences you care 
>>> to
>>> name.
>> I've long wondered how the agrarian Dragaerans (say that 3x fast) 
>> managed
>> to cope with the overcast.  Perhaps they've been experiencing 
>> diminishing
>> crop yields for many cycles now...
>> Also maintaining good topsoil for 200k years is probably difficult.
>
> Magic?

Thats the big thing that changes the standard equation; magic.



From Bato001 at aol.com  Fri Jul 23 09:31:10 2004
From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:31:10 -0400
Subject: Linguistics and population
Message-ID: <0F1F4889.2590623F.0015B39F@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/23/2004 11:41:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Chris Turkel <zizban at adelphia.net> writes:

>
>On Jul 23, 2004, at 11:42 AM, Jose Marquez wrote:
>
>> Philip Hart wrote:
>>> On Fri, 23 Jul 2004, Ken Koester wrote:
>>>> This seems much too conservative. ?Agrarian France had 26M+; Britain,
>>>> 5.6M+. ?Europe as a whole could not have been less than 60M, and the
>>>> Empire is *at least* as large as Europe, to judge from travelling 
>>>> times
>>>> (before teleportation, that is). ?China must have had at least 100M. 
>>>> . .
>>>> . ah, I just pulled out my Braudel. ?In 1650, he cites a population 
>>>> for
>>>> europe (including European Russia) of 100M; for Asia, of ?250-330M; 
>>>> for
>>>> Africa, of 100M. ?Your figures would lead to an extremely depopulated
>>>> Empire, by human--er, Easterner (-: --standards. ?Not impossible, if 
>>>> the
>>>> birthrate is extremely low. ?But to be that low, I'd say that all our
>>>> expectations of what an Empire is, or does, or functions would be 
>>>> wildly
>>>> off; the scale simply wouldn't translate to any experiences you care 
>>>> to
>>>> name.
>>> I've long wondered how the agrarian Dragaerans (say that 3x fast) 
>>> managed
>>> to cope with the overcast. ?Perhaps they've been experiencing 
>>> diminishing
>>> crop yields for many cycles now...
>>> Also maintaining good topsoil for 200k years is probably difficult.
>>
>> Magic?
>
>Thats the big thing that changes the standard equation; magic.
>
>

yeah, when you write fantasy you don't have to worry about the hard stuff. You just have magik fi x it. Sorta like computers.
-- 
John D. Barbato, O.D.



From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Fri Jul 23 10:01:14 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:01:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Linguistics and population
In-Reply-To: <B5F7B52D-DCBE-11D8-889E-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040722130927.031211d0@mail.access-4-free.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20040722222652.02c59890@mail.access-4-free.com>
 <4100F910.9010804@email.ers.usda.gov> <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407230819200.23345@flora02.slac.stanford.edu>
 <410131F2.2030106@earthlink.net> <B5F7B52D-DCBE-11D8-889E-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407230950370.13125@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>



On Fri, 23 Jul 2004, Chris Turkel wrote:

>
> On Jul 23, 2004, at 11:42 AM, Jose Marquez wrote:
>
> > Philip Hart wrote:

> >> I've long wondered how the agrarian Dragaerans (say that 3x fast)
> >> managed to cope with the overcast.  Perhaps they've been experiencing
> >> diminishing crop yields for many cycles now... Also maintaining good
> >> topsoil for 200k years is probably difficult.
> >
> > Magic?
>
> Thats the big thing that changes the standard equation; magic.


Anybody know anything about agriculture?  I can vaguely imagine that
it's possible to fix nitrogen in the soil by sorcery, but I can't see
how the (pre-Interregnum) Empire could do that on many millions of
acres multiple times per generation.  And I think that doesn't help with
erosion (do we know that the Teckla till? [3x fast again]).

And I certainly don't see how the calories the plants miss because of the
overcast can be replaced.

So perhaps that's one damper on the development of Dragaeran society.


From rone at ennui.org  Fri Jul 23 10:15:19 2004
From: rone at ennui.org (rone)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:15:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Linguistics and population
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407230819200.23345@flora02.slac.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <20040723171519.647E726C8C@boredom.ennui.org>

Philip Hart writes:
  Also maintaining good topsoil for 200k years is probably difficult.
  
The occasional Dragon-Jhereg war should be good to refertilize the
ground.

rone
-- 
{Regarding SCO's claims against Linux,} the idea that I came up with is
that Linux should claim to be a parody of UNIX, since parody is Fair Use
and Protected Free Speech and all that.
				- Anthony de Boer <abuse at leftmind.net>


From lazarus33pjf at cox.net  Fri Jul 23 11:14:55 2004
From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:14:55 -0700
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0407222024220.1485671-100000@shell01-g>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407221655220.5492@flora02.slac.stanford.edu> <Pine.SGI.4.40.0407222024220.1485671-100000@shell01-g>
Message-ID: <4bl2g09knu0jgt2jkvgpij72p6hgsds7j3@4ax.com>

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:36:12 -0400, you wrote:

>I'm talking about French, Spanish, Portuguese, Catalan, Galician,
>Sardinian, Romanian, Italian,...: the Romance languages.  That's what
>Latin has changed into, in the normal development of a living language.
>The Latin of the Vatican is a dead language, preserved for cultural
>purposes and nobody's native language for millennia.

I've long been under the impression that Spanish is much more stable
than English.  For example, El Cid was written hundreds of years ago,
but doesn't need translating for modern readers, as opposed to the
works of Chaucer.


From lazarus33pjf at cox.net  Fri Jul 23 11:16:03 2004
From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:16:03 -0700
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
In-Reply-To: <20040723005605.68974.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0407220011370.1424243-100000@shell01-g> <20040723005605.68974.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <gdl2g0pp76oh1kss72l67oqtdnjko9hrpn@4ax.com>

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:56:05 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>To: dragaera at dragaera.info
>Subject: Re: Name similarities and pure speculation
>From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
>Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 17:56:05 -0700 (PDT)
>
>--- Mark A Mandel <mam at theworld.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 21 Jul 2004, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> 
>> #By the way, if anyone is really bored, you can wonder why such
>> #names as Istvan and Tomas are the *only* trace of Christianity
>> #we've seen on Dragaera.  Or are they not Christian?
>> 
>> Yes, they are. But my name is Mark, and I'm Jewish, and my ancestors as
>> far back as anyone has any idea have been Jewish.
>
>Well, Stephanos and Thomas were Greek names before anyone was
>a Christian, but the only reason they were adopted in Hungary
>and Spain was Christianity.

Somewhat off-topic here:

How did the name Hector, originally that of a Trojan hero in a Greek
epic, become popular in the Hispanic culture?


From lazarus33pjf at cox.net  Fri Jul 23 11:22:45 2004
From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:22:45 -0700
Subject: Linguistics and population
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407230950370.13125@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040722130927.031211d0@mail.access-4-free.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040722222652.02c59890@mail.access-4-free.com> <4100F910.9010804@email.ers.usda.gov> <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407230819200.23345@flora02.slac.stanford.edu> <410131F2.2030106@earthlink.net> <B5F7B52D-DCBE-11D8-889E-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407230950370.13125@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <kpl2g014e5ardverk0ntob4g1ovreksgke@4ax.com>

On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:01:14 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>
>
>On Fri, 23 Jul 2004, Chris Turkel wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jul 23, 2004, at 11:42 AM, Jose Marquez wrote:
>>
>> > Philip Hart wrote:
>
>> >> I've long wondered how the agrarian Dragaerans (say that 3x fast)
>> >> managed to cope with the overcast.  Perhaps they've been experiencing
>> >> diminishing crop yields for many cycles now... Also maintaining good
>> >> topsoil for 200k years is probably difficult.
>> >
>> > Magic?
>>
>> Thats the big thing that changes the standard equation; magic.
>
>
>Anybody know anything about agriculture?  I can vaguely imagine that
>it's possible to fix nitrogen in the soil by sorcery, but I can't see
>how the (pre-Interregnum) Empire could do that on many millions of
>acres multiple times per generation.  And I think that doesn't help with
>erosion (do we know that the Teckla till? [3x fast again]).
>
>And I certainly don't see how the calories the plants miss because of the
>overcast can be replaced.
>
>So perhaps that's one damper on the development of Dragaeran society.

Or perhaps the plants were as manipulated by the Jenoine as the
humans/Dragaerans were, to enable them to thrive under the overcast.

Heck, we still don't know what the Overcast actually /is/, do we?
What parts of sunlight does it block?  How much?


From singram at videotron.ca  Fri Jul 23 11:26:25 2004
From: singram at videotron.ca (singram at videotron.ca)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:26:25 -0400
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
Message-ID: <13324b12c7eb.12c7eb13324b@videotron.ca>

> 
> Somewhat off-topic here:
> 
> How did the name Hector, originally that of a Trojan hero in a Greek
> epic, become popular in the Hispanic culture?

http://www.hispanicnames.com/history.asp
 



From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Fri Jul 23 11:47:25 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:47:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Linguistics and population
In-Reply-To: <kpl2g014e5ardverk0ntob4g1ovreksgke@4ax.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040722130927.031211d0@mail.access-4-free.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20040722222652.02c59890@mail.access-4-free.com>
 <4100F910.9010804@email.ers.usda.gov> <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407230819200.23345@flora02.slac.stanford.edu>
 <410131F2.2030106@earthlink.net> <B5F7B52D-DCBE-11D8-889E-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net>
 <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407230950370.13125@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>
 <kpl2g014e5ardverk0ntob4g1ovreksgke@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407231139470.17249@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>

[possible eentsie spoiler for the Piroiad]


On Fri, 23 Jul 2004, lazarus wrote:

> On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 10:01:14 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:
> >
> >And I certainly don't see how the calories the plants miss because of the
> >overcast can be replaced.
> >
> >So perhaps that's one damper on the development of Dragaeran society.
>
> Or perhaps the plants were as manipulated by the Jenoine as the
> humans/Dragaerans were, to enable them to thrive under the overcast.
>
> Heck, we still don't know what the Overcast actually /is/, do we?
> What parts of sunlight does it block?  How much?


I'm under the impression that we know the Overcast is industrial
pollution - I think it is observed to recede during the Interregnum.

Hence my concern about falling crop yields pre-Interregnum
(maybe the new Orb is a cleaner tech, or can be used for sweeping.)

In any case, the grains in question may well have been bioengineered
but they just can't do as well with less input energy (unless there's
some other scare resource which is more available given the overcast -
perhaps Dragaera lacks rain but the pollution seeds precipitation.)


From lazarus33pjf at cox.net  Fri Jul 23 12:24:20 2004
From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 12:24:20 -0700
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
In-Reply-To: <13324b12c7eb.12c7eb13324b@videotron.ca>
References: <13324b12c7eb.12c7eb13324b@videotron.ca>
Message-ID: <udp2g0pj9haf6tlfnnurfu8cvkajgasl4a@4ax.com>

On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:26:25 -0400, you wrote:

>> 
>> Somewhat off-topic here:
>> 
>> How did the name Hector, originally that of a Trojan hero in a Greek
>> epic, become popular in the Hispanic culture?
>
>http://www.hispanicnames.com/history.asp
> 

Thank you!  My wife had theorised that was the case, but I wasn't
sure.


From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Fri Jul 23 13:10:30 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:10:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
In-Reply-To: <udp2g0pj9haf6tlfnnurfu8cvkajgasl4a@4ax.com>
References: <13324b12c7eb.12c7eb13324b@videotron.ca> <udp2g0pj9haf6tlfnnurfu8cvkajgasl4a@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407231307070.18313@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>



On Fri, 23 Jul 2004, lazarus wrote:

> On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:26:25 -0400, someone wrote:
>
> >>
> >> Somewhat off-topic here:
> >>
> >> How did the name Hector, originally that of a Trojan hero in a Greek
> >> epic, become popular in the Hispanic culture?
> >
> >http://www.hispanicnames.com/history.asp
> >
>
> Thank you!  My wife had theorised that was the case, but I wasn't
> sure.

"The Basques gave themselves names like, Guzman (good man), Esquivel
(behind a rock), Chapa (oak tree), Zavala (width)."

I can understand the name Petros/Pedro/Peter/ - "rock" - but "behind a
rock"?  (Ok, "beneath a rock" would be worse.)  And Mr. Width strikes me
as odd.


From zardoz at weirdness.com  Fri Jul 23 13:48:01 2004
From: zardoz at weirdness.com (Robert Sallade)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:48:01 -0700
Subject: Linguistics and population
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407231139470.17249@flora03.slac.stanford.ed
 u>
References: <kpl2g014e5ardverk0ntob4g1ovreksgke@4ax.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20040722130927.031211d0@mail.access-4-free.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20040722222652.02c59890@mail.access-4-free.com>
 <4100F910.9010804@email.ers.usda.gov>
 <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407230819200.23345@flora02.slac.stanford.edu>
 <410131F2.2030106@earthlink.net>
 <B5F7B52D-DCBE-11D8-889E-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net>
 <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407230950370.13125@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>
 <kpl2g014e5ardverk0ntob4g1ovreksgke@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040723134059.02c674b0@mail.access-4-free.com>

At 11:47 AM 7/23/04, Philip Hart wrote:
>[possible eentsie spoiler for the Piroiad]
> > Heck, we still don't know what the Overcast actually /is/, do we?
> > What parts of sunlight does it block?  How much?
>
>I'm under the impression that we know the Overcast is industrial
>pollution - I think it is observed to recede during the Interregnum.

I thought the Overcast was analogous with CFC emissions. Namely the use of 
sorcery creating an atmospheric residue; a by-product of the transformed 
amorphia where the energy is used but not all the matter is transformed to 
energy. If it were simply industrial in nature I don't think it would have 
lessened during the Interregnum.

The Easterners are roughly equal technologically so the Overcast should 
extend over the mountains and the Island nations. The difference? The 
non-use of sorcery.



From zardoz at weirdness.com  Fri Jul 23 13:58:19 2004
From: zardoz at weirdness.com (Robert Sallade)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:58:19 -0700
Subject: Names
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407231307070.18313@flora03.slac.stanford.ed
 u>
References: <udp2g0pj9haf6tlfnnurfu8cvkajgasl4a@4ax.com>
 <13324b12c7eb.12c7eb13324b@videotron.ca>
 <udp2g0pj9haf6tlfnnurfu8cvkajgasl4a@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040723134851.02c63c50@mail.access-4-free.com>

At 01:10 PM 7/23/04, you wrote:
>"The Basques gave themselves names like, Guzman (good man), Esquivel
>(behind a rock), Chapa (oak tree), Zavala (width)."
>
>I can understand the name Petros/Pedro/Peter/ - "rock" - but "behind a
>rock"?  (Ok, "beneath a rock" would be worse.)  And Mr. Width strikes me
>as odd.

There are also cases where a nickname has stuck around as a surname. (I'm 
of Basque descent, but not pure.)

My last name comes from the French side and derives from a nickname given 
to two brothers fighting alongside Lafayette (still looking for personnel 
records of the time). It is an alternate spelling of a variation for Sallet 
"In medi?val armour, a light globular headpiece, either with or without a 
vizor, and without a crest, the lower part curving outwards behind." [OED 
2nd ed.] Go figure.



From rone at ennui.org  Fri Jul 23 14:16:19 2004
From: rone at ennui.org (rone)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:16:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407231307070.18313@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <20040723211619.EFCC526C89@boredom.ennui.org>

Philip Hart writes:
  "The Basques gave themselves names like, Guzman (good man), Esquivel
  (behind a rock), Chapa (oak tree), Zavala (width)."
  I can understand the name Petros/Pedro/Peter/ - "rock" - but "behind a
  rock"?  (Ok, "beneath a rock" would be worse.)  And Mr. Width strikes me
  as odd.
  
Maybe he was just advertising.  You know, for the ladies.

rone
-- 
{Regarding SCO's claims against Linux,} the idea that I came up with is
that Linux should claim to be a parody of UNIX, since parody is Fair Use
and Protected Free Speech and all that.
				- Anthony de Boer <abuse at leftmind.net>


From zardoz at weirdness.com  Fri Jul 23 14:24:14 2004
From: zardoz at weirdness.com (Robert Sallade)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:24:14 -0700
Subject: technology and population
In-Reply-To: <4100F910.9010804@email.ers.usda.gov>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040722130927.031211d0@mail.access-4-free.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20040722222652.02c59890@mail.access-4-free.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040723135846.02c69d00@mail.access-4-free.com>

At 04:40 AM 7/23/04, Ken Koester wrote:

>Robert Sallade wrote:
>
>>
>>I believe that in Dragon, Vlad relates why armor and the technology of 
>>battle has been held in check. Basically because of the sorcerous arms 
>>race. As technology is mostly driven by the need to improve defensive 
>>capability, and the Dragaerans rely on sorcery, it is only logical that 
>>they would stay much the same.
>?  You've lost me, here.  Are you saying that *all* technology is mostly 
>defensive driven?  That's clearly wrong; cf. Gimpel's =The Medieval 
>Machine= for just one selection of counterexamples.  Or are you saying 
>that military technology is mostly defensive driven?  Again, I'd have to 
>disagree.  Most of the 20th century arms race seems to have been driven by 
>the need for offensive capability, and I think you could make the same 
>case for the 16th-17th century revolution in arms as well.  The very most 
>one could claim is that technology is equally driven by both, as one side 
>tries to outdo the other.  You can see that phenomenon happening most 
>clearly in the evolution of the capital ship from about 1855 to 
>1940-ish.  But since then, more effort has gone to the offensive side of 
>the scale, I feel.

And the phrase, "the best defense is a strong offense," means...?  The arms 
race of any century is driven by the need not to destroy others, but to 
safeguard resources. The best way to safeguard resources is to take what 
you can defend and then improve on what you used (offensively). This makes 
others think twice about trying to take things back or forces them to 
improve technology so that you can't take more.

>>The technological state assumes that the Empire is still agrarian and 
>>therefore cannot sustain an extremely large population so I'd think that 
>>15 to 20 million would be the best it could do. With that number of 
>>people there is bound to be socio-economic and geographical differences 
>>in the manner of speech.
>This seems much too conservative.  Agrarian France had 26M+; Britain, 
>5.6M+.  Europe as a whole could not have been less than 60M, and the 
>Empire is *at least* as large as Europe, to judge from travelling times 
>(before teleportation, that is).  China must have had at least 100M. . . . 
>ah, I just pulled out my Braudel.  In 1650, he cites a population for 
>europe (including European Russia) of 100M;

Good examples, but one thing stands out here. The largest single empire you 
mention is 100M. The rest are continental populations. I'd need to check 
source material on this, but I believe China employed selective education 
as a means to achieve control over so many bodies. This included instilling 
a belief that the Emperor was god. Having a semi-educated populace that 
might aspire to higher status (the civil service tests) allows local 
governors to rule by proclamation. There were a great deal of people who 
could not read, but no one was disallowed from learning how. (definitely 
need to check sources on the following) Some governors made it a point to 
have anyone who asked taught to read.

The second highest you quote for a single population is 25M which is not 
that much higher than my estimate.

>There are hints.  We certainly see noble families with few offspring 
>(although one would suspect the Teckla to offset this, and if they make up 
>90% of the population, they probably do).  OTOH, we also see an Empire 
>large enough & complicated enough to have as one of its main functions the 
>balancing of trade of natural resources & food from one part of itself to 
>the other.  So it has to be more than a simple agrarian society.

Remember that agrarian does not mean subsistence farming. You cannot form 
an empire on providing goods and services without a means to feed the 
population. The vast majority of the population is involved with farming 
(the Teckla), therefore most of the Empire deals with food. The balancing 
act of resource management simply means that there is another, smaller 
segment of the population that has been freed from farming by better 
farming methods. Mercantilism does not preclude that a society is agrarian.

>Finally, if the Empire *is* as depopulated as you would guess, based 
>largely on the difference in life expectancy, what of the Easterners? 
>*They* should be plentiful, & pushing on the boundaries in their teeming 
>hordes constantly.  Yet over time, one gets the impression that both sides 
>have pushed themselves into equilibrium.  the Dragaerans have advantages, 
>of course.  But one gets the impression that the Empire has just a bit of 
>population pressure within itself helping to turn the attention of various 
>warlords eastwardly.

It is possible that the Easterners are much more populous. Army size would 
be greater than what the Dragaerans could muster. Then there is the problem 
of geography. Logistically, getting a large army over those mountains 
unseen (or even whole) and ready to fight would be a royal pain in the butt.



From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Fri Jul 23 14:44:44 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:44:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Linguistics and population
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040723134059.02c674b0@mail.access-4-free.com>
References: <kpl2g014e5ardverk0ntob4g1ovreksgke@4ax.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20040722130927.031211d0@mail.access-4-free.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20040722222652.02c59890@mail.access-4-free.com>
 <4100F910.9010804@email.ers.usda.gov> <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407230819200.23345@flora02.slac.stanford.edu>
 <410131F2.2030106@earthlink.net> <B5F7B52D-DCBE-11D8-889E-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net>
 <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407230950370.13125@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>
 <kpl2g014e5ardverk0ntob4g1ovreksgke@4ax.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20040723134059.02c674b0@mail.access-4-free.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407231440340.18313@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>



On Fri, 23 Jul 2004, Robert Sallade wrote:

> At 11:47 AM 7/23/04, Philip Hart wrote:
> >[possible eentsie spoiler for the Piroiad]
> > > Heck, we still don't know what the Overcast actually /is/, do we?
> > > What parts of sunlight does it block?  How much?
> >
> >I'm under the impression that we know the Overcast is industrial
> >pollution - I think it is observed to recede during the Interregnum.
>
> I thought the Overcast was analogous with CFC emissions. Namely the use of
> sorcery creating an atmospheric residue; a by-product of the transformed
> amorphia where the energy is used but not all the matter is transformed to
> energy. If it were simply industrial in nature I don't think it would have
> lessened during the Interregnum.


Sorry - I was using "industrial" loosely - in the Dragaeran context
sorcery is industry.  In the snippage I said the updated Orb might be
"a cleaner technology".


From lazarus33pjf at cox.net  Fri Jul 23 14:52:47 2004
From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:52:47 -0700
Subject: Linguistics and population
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407231440340.18313@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040722222652.02c59890@mail.access-4-free.com> <4100F910.9010804@email.ers.usda.gov> <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407230819200.23345@flora02.slac.stanford.edu> <410131F2.2030106@earthlink.net> <B5F7B52D-DCBE-11D8-889E-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407230950370.13125@flora03.slac.stanford.edu> <kpl2g014e5ardverk0ntob4g1ovreksgke@4ax.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040723134059.02c674b0@mail.access-4-free.com> <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407231440340.18313@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <i223g0h2m44571fedjm66j7scvbmlfvbki@4ax.com>

On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:44:44 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>
>
>On Fri, 23 Jul 2004, Robert Sallade wrote:
>
>> At 11:47 AM 7/23/04, Philip Hart wrote:
>> >[possible eentsie spoiler for the Piroiad]
>> > > Heck, we still don't know what the Overcast actually /is/, do we?
>> > > What parts of sunlight does it block?  How much?
>> >
>> >I'm under the impression that we know the Overcast is industrial
>> >pollution - I think it is observed to recede during the Interregnum.
>>
>> I thought the Overcast was analogous with CFC emissions. Namely the use of
>> sorcery creating an atmospheric residue; a by-product of the transformed
>> amorphia where the energy is used but not all the matter is transformed to
>> energy. If it were simply industrial in nature I don't think it would have
>> lessened during the Interregnum.
>
>
>Sorry - I was using "industrial" loosely - in the Dragaeran context
>sorcery is industry.  In the snippage I said the updated Orb might be
>"a cleaner technology".

But we still don't know what it does, exactly, and how it interacts
with the vegetation on Dragaera.  What if the only thing it cuts from
the sun's radiation is a specific element of the visible spectrum, and
the plants have evolved (or been engineered with) an alternate form of
photosynthesis?


From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM  Fri Jul 23 15:05:04 2004
From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:05:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: technology and population 
Message-ID: <200407232205.i6NM54mX014191@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com>

Robert Sallade wrote:
> And the phrase, "the best defense is a strong offense," means...?  The arms 
> race of any century is driven by the need not to destroy others, but to 
> safeguard resources. 

I'm not sure history supports this.  Well, unless 
"safeguarding resources" also refers to other people's
resources. Then I'd have to agree.

Yeah, had to chime in. <grin>

Chris

"The morning cup of coffee has an exhilaration
about it which the cheering influence of the
afternoon or evening cup of tea cannot be expected 
to reproduce."
 ~ Oliver Wedell Holmes, Sr. - "Over the Teacups" (1891)



From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Fri Jul 23 15:09:46 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:09:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Linguistics and population
In-Reply-To: <i223g0h2m44571fedjm66j7scvbmlfvbki@4ax.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040722222652.02c59890@mail.access-4-free.com>
 <4100F910.9010804@email.ers.usda.gov> <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407230819200.23345@flora02.slac.stanford.edu>
 <410131F2.2030106@earthlink.net> <B5F7B52D-DCBE-11D8-889E-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net>
 <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407230950370.13125@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>
 <kpl2g014e5ardverk0ntob4g1ovreksgke@4ax.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20040723134059.02c674b0@mail.access-4-free.com>
 <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407231440340.18313@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>
 <i223g0h2m44571fedjm66j7scvbmlfvbki@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407231455300.18313@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>



On Fri, 23 Jul 2004, lazarus wrote:

> On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:44:44 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >On Fri, 23 Jul 2004, Robert Sallade wrote:
> >
> >> At 11:47 AM 7/23/04, Philip Hart wrote:
> >> >[possible eentsie spoiler for the Piroiad]
> >> > > Heck, we still don't know what the Overcast actually /is/, do we?
> >> > > What parts of sunlight does it block?  How much?
> >> >
> >> >I'm under the impression that we know the Overcast is industrial
> >> >pollution - I think it is observed to recede during the Interregnum.
> >>
> >> I thought the Overcast was analogous with CFC emissions. Namely the use of
> >> sorcery creating an atmospheric residue; a by-product of the transformed
> >> amorphia where the energy is used but not all the matter is transformed to
> >> energy. If it were simply industrial in nature I don't think it would have
> >> lessened during the Interregnum.
> >
> >
> >Sorry - I was using "industrial" loosely - in the Dragaeran context
> >sorcery is industry.  In the snippage I said the updated Orb might be
> >"a cleaner technology".
>
> But we still don't know what it does, exactly, and how it interacts
> with the vegetation on Dragaera.  What if the only thing it cuts from
> the sun's radiation is a specific element of the visible spectrum, and
> the plants have evolved (or been engineered with) an alternate form of
> photosynthesis?


I think (someone with actual biology/physiology expertise will correct me)
that our eyes and plants operate near the same frequency, so if it's
darker for us it's darker for them (assuming earth grains anyway).  I
think Vlad suggests the Overcast leaves some red light, which would mean
less energy available in what sunlight there is.

To make my assumption explicit, I take it that the plants were efficient
before the Overcast, that light is a limiting resource for them, and that
the Dragaerans haven't been able to rewrite the basic chemical pathways of
plants to make up for the failing light.


From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM  Fri Jul 23 15:12:21 2004
From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:12:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Linguistics and population 
Message-ID: <200407232212.i6NMCLmX014742@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com>

> To make my assumption explicit, I take it that the plants were efficient
> before the Overcast, that light is a limiting resource for them, and that
> the Dragaerans haven't been able to rewrite the basic chemical pathways of
> plants to make up for the failing light.

Is this why Dragaeran food can't hold a spatula
to Eastern cooking?  Maybe it's not just the
red peppers.  Hmmm....

<grin>
Chris

"He is a lover of his country who rebukes and does
not excuse its sins." - Frederick Douglass




From dd-b at dd-b.net  Fri Jul 23 16:04:02 2004
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 18:04:02 -0500
Subject: Anybody get a duplicate in this list *in the last 24 hours*?
Message-ID: <m21xj2s4v1.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>

If so please email me privately, with copies if you still have them.
I haven't seen any here.

Unfortunately, I can't promise it's all over.  I've stripped all sorts
of things I can't leave off permanently, and will now have to start
playing with adding them back to see which one was causing it, and
then try to fix it.  
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From mam at theworld.com  Sun Jul 25 22:01:49 2004
From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 01:01:49 -0400
Subject: Linguistics and population
In-Reply-To: <410131F2.2030106@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0407260100550.1698500-100000@shell01-g>

On Fri, 23 Jul 2004, Jose Marquez wrote:

#> Also maintaining good topsoil for 200k years is probably difficult.
#
#Magic?

Crop rotation and other fairly good folk agricultural practices?


-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]




From mam at theworld.com  Sun Jul 25 22:13:50 2004
From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 01:13:50 -0400
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
In-Reply-To: <4bl2g09knu0jgt2jkvgpij72p6hgsds7j3@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0407260102360.1698500-100000@shell01-g>

#On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:36:12 -0400, you wrote:
#
#>I'm talking about French, Spanish, Portuguese, Catalan, Galician,
#>Sardinian, Romanian, Italian,...: the Romance languages.  That's what
#>Latin has changed into, in the normal development of a living language.
#>The Latin of the Vatican is a dead language, preserved for cultural
#>purposes and nobody's native language for millennia.
#
#I've long been under the impression that Spanish is much more stable
#than English.  For example, El Cid was written hundreds of years ago,
#but doesn't need translating for modern readers, as opposed to the
#works of Chaucer.

Make that nearly a thousand years, actually: "The learned Amador de los
Rios, whose opinion carries great weight, thinks that the famous poem
must have been written prior to 1157." [quoting The Catholic
Encyclopedia, http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03769a.htm]

How readable is it for modern Spanish readers?  I see what you've said,
but how do you know this? -- "It is written with Homeric simplicity and
in the language of the day, the language the Cid himself used, which was
slowly divorcing itself from the Latin, but was still only half
developed." (loc. cit.) I'm at home, just back from Pittsburgh, where I
spent the weekend at the Confluence SF convention, and am up way too
late and without some of the linguistic references I would prefer to
use, which are at the office.

-- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and
   Philological Busybody
   a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel



From lazarus33pjf at cox.net  Sun Jul 25 23:44:06 2004
From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 23:44:06 -0700
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0407260102360.1698500-100000@shell01-g>
References: <4bl2g09knu0jgt2jkvgpij72p6hgsds7j3@4ax.com> <Pine.SGI.4.40.0407260102360.1698500-100000@shell01-g>
Message-ID: <e0a9g05a4bluklaagl20qa8nn7qpopc7ak@4ax.com>

On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 01:13:50 -0400, you wrote:

>#On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:36:12 -0400, you wrote:
>#
>#>I'm talking about French, Spanish, Portuguese, Catalan, Galician,
>#>Sardinian, Romanian, Italian,...: the Romance languages.  That's what
>#>Latin has changed into, in the normal development of a living language.
>#>The Latin of the Vatican is a dead language, preserved for cultural
>#>purposes and nobody's native language for millennia.
>#
>#I've long been under the impression that Spanish is much more stable
>#than English.  For example, El Cid was written hundreds of years ago,
>#but doesn't need translating for modern readers, as opposed to the
>#works of Chaucer.
>
>Make that nearly a thousand years, actually: "The learned Amador de los
>Rios, whose opinion carries great weight, thinks that the famous poem
>must have been written prior to 1157." [quoting The Catholic
>Encyclopedia, http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03769a.htm]
>
>How readable is it for modern Spanish readers?  I see what you've said,
>but how do you know this? -- "It is written with Homeric simplicity and
>in the language of the day, the language the Cid himself used, which was
>slowly divorcing itself from the Latin, but was still only half
>developed." (loc. cit.) I'm at home, just back from Pittsburgh, where I
>spent the weekend at the Confluence SF convention, and am up way too
>late and without some of the linguistic references I would prefer to
>use, which are at the office.

Honestly, I can't remember where I read this.  It could be some
useless "factoid" from a paper, or something I picked up back when I
was a trivia hound.


From gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org  Mon Jul 26 06:02:41 2004
From: gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org (Grady Brandt)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:02:41 -0400
Subject: Linguistics and population
Message-ID: <D6F03173A5D7FC478809205D575977A70138C1AC@TBFCU_EMAIL.TampabayFCU.org>

> On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:44:44 -0700 (PDT), lazarus wrote:
> >On Fri, 23 Jul 2004, Robert Sallade wrote:
> >
> >Sorry - I was using "industrial" loosely - in the Dragaeran context
> >sorcery is industry.  In the snippage I said the updated Orb might be
> >"a cleaner technology".
> 
> But we still don't know what it does, exactly, and how it interacts
> with the vegetation on Dragaera.  What if the only thing it cuts from
> the sun's radiation is a specific element of the visible spectrum, and
> the plants have evolved (or been engineered with) an alternate form of
> photosynthesis?

Perhaps something less than detrimental comes from the Overcast. It might
"rain fertilizer" in Dragaera, some portion of the Overcast coming down in
the rain providing a supplement that offsets the lack of sunlight.

Or maybe that just explains the topsoil.


From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov  Mon Jul 26 09:51:49 2004
From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:51:49 -0400
Subject: Linguistics and population
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040722130927.031211d0@mail.access-4-free.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040722222652.02c59890@mail.access-4-free.com> <4100F910.9010804@email.ers.usda.gov> <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407230819200.23345@flora02.slac.stanford.edu> <410131F2.2030106@earthlink.net> <B5F7B52D-DCBE-11D8-889E-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407230950370.13125@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <410536A5.2000808@email.ers.usda.gov>



Philip Hart wrote:

>Anybody know anything about agriculture?  I can vaguely imagine that
>it's possible to fix nitrogen in the soil by sorcery, but I can't see
>how the (pre-Interregnum) Empire could do that on many millions of
>acres multiple times per generation.  And I think that doesn't help with
>erosion.
>  
>

There are pretty well-known ways to keep soil in good condition:  adding 
compost, rotating crops,
using fallow field systems of various kinds, fertilizing with dead fish, 
marling, no-till cultivation, etc.  You
can deal with erosion by contour plowing, terracing, planting tough 
cover crops, etc.  Whether these
methods would stand up to 200ky or not I don't know, but they certainly 
work on a several thousand
year span, and they predate the Industrial Revolution almost entirely.

>And I certainly don't see how the calories the plants miss because of the
>overcast can be replaced.
>
>  
>
This one I don't understand.  The caloric content of plants shouldn't 
vary with sunlight.  Do you mean
that there will be fewer calories available from plants because there 
will fewer plants?

Snarkhunter



From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov  Mon Jul 26 10:13:17 2004
From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:13:17 -0400
Subject: technology and population
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040722130927.031211d0@mail.access-4-free.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040722222652.02c59890@mail.access-4-free.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040723135846.02c69d00@mail.access-4-free.com>
Message-ID: <41053BAD.50102@email.ers.usda.gov>



Robert Sallade wrote:

>
> And the phrase, "the best defense is a strong offense," means...?  The 
> arms race of any century is driven by the need not to destroy others, 
> but to safeguard resources. The best way to safeguard resources is to 
> take what you can defend and then improve on what you used 
> (offensively). This makes others think twice about trying to take 
> things back or forces them to improve technology so that you can't 
> take more.


Means not much except as sophistry.  Or I could simply say that it is 
double-plus-ungood (-;  And actually, quite a few arms races are driven 
precisely by the need to destroy others.

>
>>> The technological state assumes that the Empire is still agrarian 
>>> and therefore cannot sustain an extremely large population so I'd 
>>> think that 15 to 20 million would be the best it could do. With that 
>>> number of people there is bound to be socio-economic and 
>>> geographical differences in the manner of speech.
>>
>> This seems much too conservative.  Agrarian France had 26M+; Britain, 
>> 5.6M+.  Europe as a whole could not have been less than 60M, and the 
>> Empire is *at least* as large as Europe, to judge from travelling 
>> times (before teleportation, that is).  China must have had at least 
>> 100M. . . . ah, I just pulled out my Braudel.  In 1650, he cites a 
>> population for europe (including European Russia) of 100M;
>
>
> Good examples, but one thing stands out here. The largest single 
> empire you mention is 100M. The rest are continental populations.
>
> The second highest you quote for a single population is 25M which is 
> not that much higher than my estimate.

That's hardly the point, though; population density or size or the 
carrying capacity of the land is not determined by the political entity. 
 France is surely *much* smaller than the Empire, so a pre-industrial 
population density similar to France's is hardly impossible.  If you 
want to judge how densely populated the Empire *can* be, you need as a 
reference point not just earth empires, but earth geographic 
populations.  When you do, you see that a Dragaeran population of 10s, 
even 100s of millions, is possible to feed over the equivalent land 
area, to a first approximation--this is true of agrarian societies 
generally.  To see what the actual story is, you would have to know the 
rough amount of arable land, and the Dragaeran birth/death rates.

> Remember that agrarian does not mean subsistence farming. You cannot 
> form an empire on providing goods and services without a means to feed 
> the population. The vast majority of the population is involved with 
> farming (the Teckla), therefore most of the Empire deals with food. 
> The balancing act of resource management simply means that there is 
> another, smaller segment of the population that has been freed from 
> farming by better farming methods. Mercantilism does not preclude that 
> a society is agrarian.

Didn't say that it did; said that it couldn't be a *simple* agrarian 
society.  We actually don't know what percentage of Teckla are farmers; 
there are plenty of them serving in the cities and towns, after all. 
 But since it is a question of economic activity, you can't really judge 
>from the percentages exactly in any case.  Ours for example, is still an 
industrial society, though very large sections of it are devoted to 
services & non-commercial activities.  We *do* know, through Vlad & 
Paarfi, that the Empire is concerned with much more than the movement of 
food from one place to another.

To re-cap:  deducing that a society that is agrarian must necessarily be 
quite limited in population doesn't fit with historical examples.  If 
the Dragaeran population is limited, nothing we have seen of it suggests 
that agricultural production is the limiting factor.

Snarkhunter





From mam at theworld.com  Mon Jul 26 09:45:56 2004
From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:45:56 -0400
Subject: Linguistics and population
In-Reply-To: <D6F03173A5D7FC478809205D575977A70138C1AC@TBFCU_EMAIL.TampabayFCU.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0407261244560.1766881-100000@shell01-g>

#> On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:44:44 -0700 (PDT), lazarus wrote:
#> >On Fri, 23 Jul 2004, Robert Sallade wrote:
#> >
#> >Sorry - I was using "industrial" loosely - in the Dragaeran context
#> >sorcery is industry.  In the snippage I said the updated Orb might be
#> >"a cleaner technology".
#>
#> But we still don't know what it does, exactly, and how it interacts
#> with the vegetation on Dragaera.  What if the only thing it cuts from
#> the sun's radiation is a specific element of the visible spectrum, and
#> the plants have evolved (or been engineered with) an alternate form of
#> photosynthesis?
#
#Perhaps something less than detrimental comes from the Overcast. It might
#"rain fertilizer" in Dragaera, some portion of the Overcast coming down in
#the rain providing a supplement that offsets the lack of sunlight.
#
#Or maybe that just explains the topsoil.

200,000 years is way more than enough time for plant species to develop
more efficient ways of using the light that does come through and
take over from their less efficient competition.

-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]




From dusty at sayersnet.com  Mon Jul 26 15:26:37 2004
From: dusty at sayersnet.com (J A 'Dusty' Sayers)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:26:37 -0400
Subject: Linguistics and population
In-Reply-To: <410536A5.2000808@email.ers.usda.gov>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040722130927.031211d0@mail.access-4-free.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040722222652.02c59890@mail.access-4-free.com> <4100F910.9010804@email.ers.usda.gov> <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407230819200.23345@flora02.slac.stanford.edu> <410131F2.2030106@earthlink.net> <B5F7B52D-DCBE-11D8-889E-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407230950370.13125@flora03.slac.stanford.edu> <410536A5.2000808@email.ers.usda.gov>
Message-ID: <4105851D.40004@sayersnet.com>

Ken Koester wrote:

>
>
> Philip Hart wrote:
>
>> Anybody know anything about agriculture?  I can vaguely imagine that
>> it's possible to fix nitrogen in the soil by sorcery, but I can't see
>> how the (pre-Interregnum) Empire could do that on many millions of
>> acres multiple times per generation.  And I think that doesn't help with
>> erosion.
>>  
>>
>
> There are pretty well-known ways to keep soil in good condition:  
> adding compost, rotating crops,
> using fallow field systems of various kinds, fertilizing with dead 
> fish, marling, no-till cultivation, etc.  You
> can deal with erosion by contour plowing, terracing, planting tough 
> cover crops, etc.  Whether these
> methods would stand up to 200ky or not I don't know, but they 
> certainly work on a several thousand
> year span, and they predate the Industrial Revolution almost entirely. 


In fact, I am pretty sure Vlad or Paarfi has specifically mentioned 
fertilisers, although I could easily be mistaken.  After all, the 
Dragaerans make kerosene--they aren't totally backwards or completely 
pre-industrial by any means.

-- 
J A Dusty Sayers

'When it is not necessary to change, it is necessary not to change.'
	--Lord Falkland





From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 26 17:24:00 2004
From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:24:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Linguistics and population
In-Reply-To: <D6F03173A5D7FC478809205D575977A70138C1AC@TBFCU_EMAIL.TampabayFCU.org>
Message-ID: <20040727002400.5808.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Grady Brandt <gbrandt at tampabayfcu.org> wrote:
> > On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:44:44 -0700 (PDT), lazarus wrote:
> > >On Fri, 23 Jul 2004, Robert Sallade wrote:
> > >
> > >Sorry - I was using "industrial" loosely - in the Dragaeran context
> > >sorcery is industry.  In the snippage I said the updated Orb might be
> > >"a cleaner technology".
> > 
> > But we still don't know what it does, exactly, and how it interacts
> > with the vegetation on Dragaera.  What if the only thing it cuts from
> > the sun's radiation is a specific element of the visible spectrum, and
> > the plants have evolved (or been engineered with) an alternate form of
> > photosynthesis?
>
> Perhaps something less than detrimental comes from the Overcast. It
> might
> "rain fertilizer" in Dragaera, some portion of the Overcast coming down
> in
> the rain providing a supplement that offsets the lack of sunlight.

Indeed.  For all we know, it could use left-over sorcerous energy
to *raise* the energy of the infrared in Furnacelight, thus
shifting it up to orange and supplying more energy for crops.
(It would also scatter the light, but that wouldn't make much
difference to the available energy.)

That's what's technically known as a "fanwank"--there's a good
chance that Steven (or Adrian C. Morgan) just wanted the "elfs"
to live in a realm of perpetual twilight and didn't worry about
the consequences--but I think it shows that this problem doesn't
have to puzzle us.

> Or maybe that just explains the topsoil.

As people have been pointing out, our current topsoil problem
has a lot to do with modern intensive agriculture, and ways
to preserve topsoil have been known for a long time.  Anyway,
if you can use sorcery to heal people, you can use it to fix
nitrogen, even if you don't know what nitrogen is.  Not to
mention phosphorus, potassium, and all those micronutrients
that fertilizer makers want me to pay a lot of money for.

Jerry Friedman


		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 


From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 26 18:03:44 2004
From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:03:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407231307070.18313@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <20040727010344.99764.qmail@web50704.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Philip Hart <philiph at slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, 23 Jul 2004, lazarus wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:26:25 -0400, someone wrote:
> >
> > >>
> > >> Somewhat off-topic here:
> > >>
> > >> How did the name Hector, originally that of a Trojan hero in a
> Greek
> > >> epic, become popular in the Hispanic culture?
> > >
> > >http://www.hispanicnames.com/history.asp
> > >
> >
> > Thank you!  My wife had theorised that was the case, but I wasn't
> > sure.

The Romans had this myth that they were descended from Aeneas
and other Trojans.  This made the Homeric Trojans more popular
in Europe--in fact, I believe it was a popular sport to trace
one's descent from, sort of the way it was in the 19th century
to prove that one's ethnic group was the real Aryans.  As the
noblest Trojan was Hector, that name become popular.

It's unusual among Spanish names in that there didn't seem to
be a Saint Hector until 1999.

> "The Basques gave themselves names like, Guzman (good man), Esquivel
> (behind a rock), Chapa (oak tree), Zavala (width)."

Maybe some Basques gave themselves the names Guzman, but its origin
obviously Germanic, specifically Gothic.  I was under the impression
it meant "God's man", but I could be wrong.

> I can understand the name Petros/Pedro/Peter/ - "rock" - but "behind a
> rock"?  (Ok, "beneath a rock" would be worse.) 

Probably "rock" in the British sense--a stone that's to big to lift.
Mr. Esquivel would have lived in a house behind one.

> And Mr. Width strikes me as odd.

In addition to (or in harmony with) rone's suggestion, cf.
Philip Dick, or "Horselover Fat" in English.

Jerry Friedman



	
		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 


From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 26 18:20:43 2004
From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:20:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
In-Reply-To: <20040723064606.3016726CC0@boredom.ennui.org>
Message-ID: <20040727012043.80982.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com>

--- rone <rone at ennui.org> wrote:
> bonham15 writes:
>   wouldn't the orb act as a repository of knowledge and culture as far
> as the
>   empire is concerned?  every citizen is mentally linked to it, so who
> is to
>   say the orb doesn't act on societal cohesion on some sublevel?
>   
> I'd love to see the Orb burn out the mind of any Dragaeran who says,
> "My bad."

Ha!

However, have we ever seen any Dragaeran apologize for anything
or admit to being in the wrong?

Obsf: Azhriaz's apology to Azhrarn in _Delirium's Mistress_, by
Tanith Lee.

Jerry Friedman recommends the whole Flat Earth series.


		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 


From skzb at dreamcafe.com  Mon Jul 26 11:38:30 2004
From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 11:38:30 -0700
Subject: Linguistics and population
In-Reply-To: <410536A5.2000808@email.ers.usda.gov>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040722130927.031211d0@mail.access-4-free.com>
	 <5.1.0.14.2.20040722222652.02c59890@mail.access-4-free.com>
	 <4100F910.9010804@email.ers.usda.gov>
	 <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407230819200.23345@flora02.slac.stanford.edu>
	 <410131F2.2030106@earthlink.net>
	 <B5F7B52D-DCBE-11D8-889E-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net>
	 <Pine.GSO.4.58.0407230950370.13125@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>
	 <410536A5.2000808@email.ers.usda.gov>
Message-ID: <1090867110.2715.16.camel@localhost>

On Mon, 2004-07-26 at 09:51, Ken Koester wrote:
 
> >And I certainly don't see how the calories the plants miss because of the
> >overcast can be replaced.
> >
> >  
> >
> This one I don't understand.  The caloric content of plants shouldn't 
> vary with sunlight.  Do you mean
> that there will be fewer calories available from plants because there 
> will fewer plants?
 
Actually, it isn't all that complicated.  _Principles of Field Crop
Production_ by Martin, Leonard, and Stamp, third edition, page 76 has a
very convenient chart showing how plants are effected by various light
spectra.  Turns out "orange-red" is right up there; you don't lose very
much.

-- 
Steven Brust	skzb at dreamcafe.com
"Preacher, don't the bible have some pretty specific things to say about
killing?"  "Quite specific.  It's rather fuzzier, however, on the
subject of kneecaps." -- Firefly



From frank at exit.com  Mon Jul 26 19:26:27 2004
From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:26:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Linguistics and population
In-Reply-To: <1090867110.2715.16.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <200407270226.i6R2QREe084802@realtime.exit.com>

Steve Brust wrote:
> Actually, it isn't all that complicated.  _Principles of Field Crop
> Production_ by Martin, Leonard, and Stamp, third edition, page 76 has a
> very convenient chart showing how plants are effected by various light
> spectra.  Turns out "orange-red" is right up there; you don't lose very
> much.

Part of the reason that chlorophyll is green.  It absorbs mostly orangish
light, reflecting the rest.
-- 
Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com	http://www.exit.com/
Exit Consulting                 http://www.gpsclock.com/
                                http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/


From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov  Tue Jul 27 04:07:54 2004
From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 07:07:54 -0400
Subject: Linguistics and population
References: <200407270226.i6R2QREe084802@realtime.exit.com>
Message-ID: <4106378A.5020601@email.ers.usda.gov>



Frank Mayhar wrote:

>Steve Brust wrote:
>  
>
>>Actually, it isn't all that complicated.  _Principles of Field Crop
>>Production_ by Martin, Leonard, and Stamp, third edition, page 76 has a
>>very convenient chart showing how plants are effected by various light
>>spectra.  Turns out "orange-red" is right up there; you don't lose very
>>much.
>>    
>>
>
>Part of the reason that chlorophyll is green.  It absorbs mostly orangish
>light, reflecting the rest.
>

Interesting.  I was fixed on the caloric content of the plants.  Perhaps 
I can ask someone around here, as well.
I remember, dimly, reports in Science news about colored mulches for 
tomatoes, now that I think on it. . . .

Snarkhunter



From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us  Wed Jul 28 06:19:02 2004
From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:19:02 -0400
Subject: The Three Musketeers
In-Reply-To: <40FE65DE.2040000@email.ers.usda.gov>
References: <Sea1-F43Oi6taaXM1Zb0000bf5d@hotmail.com> <40FE65DE.2040000@email.ers.usda.gov>
Message-ID: <20040728131902.GE4347@lokkur.dexter.mi.us>

Sorry, I've been away for a couple of weeks:

On Wed, Jul 21, 2004 at 08:47:26AM -0400, Ken Koester wrote:
> The best 3M for me is Lester's =The Three Musketeers= & =The Four 
> Musketeers=, shot as one film but forced to be released as two . . .

Absolutely.  You can get the two movies in a single DVD package from
Amazon for a very reasonable price.  In fact, I just got it for my
birthday.  We're inviting the kids over for two movies punctuated by
a dinner next weekend.
-- 
  The TV business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic
hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs.
There's also a negative side.
        -- Hunter S. Thompson


From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us  Wed Jul 28 06:27:16 2004
From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:27:16 -0400
Subject: The Three Musketeers
In-Reply-To: <000601c46f41$de61df50$b07ba8c0@Dad133>
References: <190001c46f3d$9f7a5820$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <000601c46f41$de61df50$b07ba8c0@Dad133>
Message-ID: <20040728132716.GG4347@lokkur.dexter.mi.us>

On Wed, Jul 21, 2004 at 10:43:35AM -0600, Howard Brazee wrote:

> [ Richard Lesters "The Three/Four Musketeers" ]

> This wonderful adaptation attempted to be true to the novel - so much
> so that it could not be cut to movie length. So they split it into two
> movies. The cast sued to be paid for two movies, but I don't remember
> the result of that.

My understanding is that the actors finally got paid for two movies.

Howards comment about the length is correct - Lester got far, far
more of the book into the movie than anyone else.  It wasn't just the
length, it was also the quality of the acting and the screenplay.
Nobody's mentioned what a brilliant job Charlton Heston did as
Richeleu (sp?).  The scene where he disposes of the 'that which was
done' letter is priceless.  I had not read the books when seeing
the film, and my heart was in my throat.

Folks mentioned translations.  The TOR-published translation was
the third or fourth one I attempted to read, and was the first where
the language sang for me.  It was the only one I finished, and I've
re-read it several times.
-- 
The TV business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic
hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs.
There's also a negative side.
        -- Hunter S. Thompson


From bio_phy at hotmail.com  Tue Jul 27 07:38:44 2004
From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:38:44 -0500
Subject: Neal Gaiman and _Death and Me_
Message-ID: <Sea1-F110GIUUJlNK9W0000b656@hotmail.com>

In case this hasn't been posted yet...

http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-main.html?2004-07/27/12.00.film

Author Neil Gaiman told SCI FI Wire that New Line Cinema is set to produce 
the film based on his graphic novel Death: The High Cost of Living. "We got 
it away from Warners, who developed it to the point where everybody was 
really happy with it, and then they turned around and said, 'Well, hang on. 
This is a $15 million movie, and we don't make them,'" Gaiman said in an 
interview at Comic-Con International in San Diego over the weekend. "At 
which point [Hellboy director] Guillermo del Toro became an executive 
producer on the project, and we put it together over at New Line, which is 
part of the [Warner Brothers] giant family. Death isn't allowed to leave."

Both Warner Brothers and New Line are owned by Time Warner, which also owns 
DC Comics, publisher of the original graphic novel and owner of the rights 
to the main character, a friendly, black-clad young woman who is the 
personification of Death. Although Variety previously reported the tentative 
title of the film as Death's Day, Gaiman referred to the working title as 
Death and Me.

The story revolves around the relationship between a suicidal teenager and 
Death, who must spend one day each century as a human being so that she can 
appreciate life. Gaiman, who wrote the script and plans to direct, said that 
he made few alterations to the story for the film version. "It's the whole 
story," he said. "It's a bit bigger, because if you filmed that comic you'd 
have a really good 45-minute movie. So more stuff happens. It's filled in."


johne (phy) cook
wisconsin, usa

_________________________________________________________________
Planning a family vacation? Check out the MSN Family Travel guide! 
http://dollar.msn.com



From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com  Tue Jul 27 20:25:46 2004
From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 23:25:46 EDT
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
Message-ID: <ba.5bf4ffcd.2e3876ba@aol.com>

---Jerry_Friedman at yahoo.com wrote on 7/26/2004:
> However have we every seen any Dragaeran apologize for anything or
> admit to being in the wrong?

Hi,

The only case I could remember turned out to not be a Dragaeran.  I 
thought Devera had said I'm sorry for Verra.

The Book of Taltos trade paperback Phoenix Page 378  'Verra said
"I'm sorry all of this had to happen."'  

I could not remember another example, even though I had just
finished re-reading everything recently.  

On the Dragaera Book Search there are lots of examples of the word 
sorry (none for apologize).  

I thought this was a good example.  
The Book of Jhereg trade paperback Jhereg page 48   Jhereg 
paperback page 65
"Sorry.  I'll let you know when I've found him."  Said by Daymar, 
House of Hawk, Dragaeran.  Of course, he wasn't saying sorry for
almost destroying Vlad.

When I decided to re-read everything, I had misplaced some of the
books and some of the others are yellow. The Brokedown Palace book 
has funny spots on the paper edges.  The cover of The Phoenix Guards 
is a little torn.  I remembered seeing the one set of the Vlad trade
paperbacks next to Sethra. I went back and bought them.  When I 
finished reading everything on Dragaera, there was another set of 
the trade paperbacks but Sethra was still not out in paperback.   
I now have a hardback copy of Sethra Lavode on acid-free paper. The 
Vlad trade paperbacks do not say acid-free.  

Bye.

Linda G.

From rone at ennui.org  Tue Jul 27 20:32:42 2004
From: rone at ennui.org (rone)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:32:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Neal Gaiman and _Death and Me_
In-Reply-To: <Sea1-F110GIUUJlNK9W0000b656@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040728033242.8788026C93@boredom.ennui.org>

Johne Cook writes:
  Author Neil Gaiman told SCI FI Wire that New Line Cinema is set to produce 
  the film based on his graphic novel Death: The High Cost of Living.

Another link he posted on his journal said that he was "in talks" to
direct.  Now i want to see Neil direct the "Taltos" movie.
  
rone
(hey, is the subject a king crimson reference?)
-- 
{Regarding SCO's claims against Linux,} the idea that I came up with is
that Linux should claim to be a parody of UNIX, since parody is Fair Use
and Protected Free Speech and all that.
				- Anthony de Boer <abuse at leftmind.net>


From bio_phy at hotmail.com  Wed Jul 28 07:38:31 2004
From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:38:31 -0500
Subject: Neal Gaiman and _Death and Me_
Message-ID: <Sea1-F167nIfqux01Wx0001a279@hotmail.com>

>Johne Cook writes:
>   Author Neil Gaiman told SCI FI Wire that New Line Cinema is set to 
>produce
>   the film based on his graphic novel Death: The High Cost of Living.
>
>Another link he posted on his journal said that he was "in talks" to
>direct.  Now i want to see Neil direct the "Taltos" movie.

...starring Johnny Depp!  (grin, duck, and run)

>rone
>(hey, is the subject a king crimson reference?)

I wish I would have known that, as I'm a huge Prog Rock fan, but I confess 
it's unintended.  Revealing this mitigates my Prog Cred somewhat, but 
intensifies the worth of my Integrity XP, which may be an even swap.

_________________________________________________________________
Overwhelmed by debt? Find out how to ?Dig Yourself Out of Debt? from MSN 
Money. http://special.msn.com/money/0407debt.armx



From ballistica at cox.net  Wed Jul 28 08:17:44 2004
From: ballistica at cox.net (Donna)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:17:44 -0700
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
References: <ba.5bf4ffcd.2e3876ba@aol.com>
Message-ID: <0abd01c474b6$08b31340$6401a8c0@jupiter>

---Jerry_Friedman at yahoo.com wrote on 7/26/2004:
> However have we every seen any Dragaeran apologize for anything or
> admit to being in the wrong?

We've seen Sethra do it during her first meeting with Vlad, in _Taltos_:

"We knew you to be a Jhereg as well as an Easterner, and had been expecting
you to respond as a Jhereg only....  It seems we don't know Easterners.  We
have erred.  We are sorry."



Donna



From Bato001 at aol.com  Wed Jul 28 11:38:39 2004
From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:38:39 EDT
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
Message-ID: <155.3ab18124.2e394caf@aol.com>


In a message dated 07/28/2004 11:18:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
ballistica at cox.net writes: 
@yahoo.com wrote on 7/26/2004:
> However have we every seen any Dragaeran apologize for anything or
> admit to being in the wrong?

We've seen Sethra do it during her first meeting with Vlad, in _Taltos_:

"We knew you to be a Jhereg as well as an Easterner, and had been expecting
you to respond as a Jhereg only....  It seems we don't know Easterners.  We
have erred.  We are sorry."



Donna
excellent smithers. I knew I had read at least one dragaeran apology. keep in 
mind that it is sethra lavode and that sethra never does anything without an 
ulterior motive. i'm sure that she doesn't apologize to just anybody.

John D. Barbato, OD

John D. Barbato, OD
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20040728/6f2bc5ae/attachment.html 
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: Bato001 at aol.com
Subject: Re: Name similarities and pure speculation
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 14:36:59 EDT
Size: 2774
Url: http://dragaera.info/pipermail/dragaera/attachments/20040728/6f2bc5ae/attachment.mht 

From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 28 16:14:01 2004
From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:14:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Linguistics and population
In-Reply-To: <1090867110.2715.16.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <20040728231401.72993.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Steve Brust <skzb at dreamcafe.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 2004-07-26 at 09:51, Ken Koester wrote:
>  
> > >And I certainly don't see how the calories the plants miss because of
> the
> > >overcast can be replaced.
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > This one I don't understand.  The caloric content of plants shouldn't 
> > vary with sunlight.  Do you mean
> > that there will be fewer calories available from plants because there 
> > will fewer plants?
>  
> Actually, it isn't all that complicated.  _Principles of Field Crop
> Production_ by Martin, Leonard, and Stamp, third edition, page 76 has a
> very convenient chart showing how plants are effected by various light
> spectra.  Turns out "orange-red" is right up there; you don't lose very
> much.

In that case I apologize (thereby revealing that I'm not Dragaeran)
for saying you might not have done the research.  Also for not
mentioning that plants go very lushly in the cloudiest parts of
the world.

Jerry Friedman


	
		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 


From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com  Wed Jul 28 16:16:29 2004
From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:16:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
In-Reply-To: <0abd01c474b6$08b31340$6401a8c0@jupiter>
Message-ID: <20040728231629.37909.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Donna <ballistica at cox.net> wrote:

> ---Jerry_Friedman at yahoo.com wrote on 7/26/2004:
> > However have we every seen any Dragaeran apologize for anything or
> > admit to being in the wrong?
> 
> We've seen Sethra do it during her first meeting with Vlad, in _Taltos_:
> 
> "We knew you to be a Jhereg as well as an Easterner, and had been
> expecting
> you to respond as a Jhereg only....  It seems we don't know Easterners. 
> We
> have erred.  We are sorry."

I should have remembered that one.

Hm, Sethra, Daymar... two characters whose sex appeal to some I
can't understand... two Dragaerans who apologize... what's going
on here?

Jerry Friedman
> 
> 
> Donna
> 
> 



		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


From jhereg69 at earthlink.net  Wed Jul 28 16:45:39 2004
From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:45:39 -0400
Subject: Name similarities and pure speculation
In-Reply-To: <20040728231629.37909.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040728231629.37909.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <41083AA3.8060706@earthlink.net>

Jerry Friedman wrote:
> --- Donna <ballistica at cox.net> wrote:
> 
> 
>>---Jerry_Friedman at yahoo.com wrote on 7/26/2004:
>>
>>>However have we every seen any Dragaeran apologize for anything or
>>>admit to being in the wrong?
>>
>>We've seen Sethra do it during her first meeting with Vlad, in _Taltos_:
>>
>>"We knew you to be a Jhereg as well as an Easterner, and had been
>>expecting
>>you to respond as a Jhereg only....  It seems we don't know Easterners. 
>>We
>>have erred.  We are sorry."
> 
> 
> I should have remembered that one.
> 
> Hm, Sethra, Daymar... two characters whose sex appeal to some I
> can't understand... two Dragaerans who apologize... what's going
> on here?

I think the cited textev of Daymar and Sethra apologizing refutes the 
hypothesis that Dragaerans don't apologize; after all we have two 
samples from which to generalize, which, according to list tradition, is 
one more than we really need.

Jose
-- 
Jose Marquez                       \  Cthulhu 2004
jhereg69 at earthlink.net              \  Why vote for
http://home.earthlink.net/~jhereg69  \  the lesser evil?



From dd-b at dd-b.net  Thu Jul 29 22:08:31 2004
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 00:08:31 -0500
Subject: Risks of dupes
Message-ID: <m2acxidquo.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>

Well, I actually suspect I found the ultimate underlying cause of the
duplicates.  So I've started turning back on some of the things I
turned off a while back.  So if I'm *wrong* the risks of getting some
dupes flowing around go up a little.  Can't make an omelette without
juggling eggs, or something. 
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From mneme at io.com  Fri Jul 30 07:18:43 2004
From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:18:43 -0500
Subject: Risks of dupes
In-Reply-To: <m2acxidquo.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>
References: <m2acxidquo.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>
Message-ID: <16650.22723.525398.436281@fnord.io.com>

David Dyer-Bennet writes:
>Well, I actually suspect I found the ultimate underlying cause of the
>duplicates.  So I've started turning back on some of the things I
>turned off a while back.  So if I'm *wrong* the risks of getting some
>dupes flowing around go up a little.  Can't make an omelette without
>juggling eggs, or something. 

Hmm.  In the intrest of morbid curiousity, what do you think it was?

-- 
       Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org))  |\      _,,,--,,_  ,)
--^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick    /,`.-'`'   -,  ;-;;'  
  /\\  your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle     |,4-  ) )-,_ ) /\     
/-\\\  your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax            '---''(_/--' (_/-'     


From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Fri Jul 30 08:26:24 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 08:26:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Linguistics and population
In-Reply-To: <20040728231401.72993.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040728231401.72993.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0407300823340.31633@noric06.slac.stanford.edu>



On Wed, 28 Jul 2004, Jerry Friedman wrote:

>
> --- Steve Brust <skzb at dreamcafe.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > And I certainly don't see how the calories the plants miss because
> > > > of the overcast can be replaced.
> > > >
> > > This one I don't understand.  The caloric content of plants shouldn't
> > > vary with sunlight.  Do you mean
> > > that there will be fewer calories available from plants because there
> > > will fewer plants?
> >
> > Actually, it isn't all that complicated.  _Principles of Field Crop
> > Production_ by Martin, Leonard, and Stamp, third edition, page 76 has a
> > very convenient chart showing how plants are effected by various light
> > spectra.  Turns out "orange-red" is right up there; you don't lose very
> > much.
>
> In that case I apologize (thereby revealing that I'm not Dragaeran)
> for saying you might not have done the research.  Also for not
> mentioning that plants go very lushly in the cloudiest parts of
> the world.

I still want to argue this point but not at 28.8k...

Aside, congrats to the listmaster for killing the dupes.


From jhereg69 at earthlink.net  Fri Jul 30 09:41:05 2004
From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:41:05 -0400
Subject: Linguistics and population
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0407300823340.31633@noric06.slac.stanford.edu>
References: <20040728231401.72993.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> <Pine.LNX.4.58.0407300823340.31633@noric06.slac.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <410A7A21.60105@earthlink.net>

Philip Hart wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 28 Jul 2004, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> 
> 
>>--- Steve Brust <skzb at dreamcafe.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>And I certainly don't see how the calories the plants miss because
>>>>>of the overcast can be replaced.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>This one I don't understand.  The caloric content of plants shouldn't
>>>>vary with sunlight.  Do you mean
>>>>that there will be fewer calories available from plants because there
>>>>will fewer plants?
>>>
>>>Actually, it isn't all that complicated.  _Principles of Field Crop
>>>Production_ by Martin, Leonard, and Stamp, third edition, page 76 has a
>>>very convenient chart showing how plants are effected by various light
>>>spectra.  Turns out "orange-red" is right up there; you don't lose very
>>>much.
>>
>>In that case I apologize (thereby revealing that I'm not Dragaeran)
>>for saying you might not have done the research.  Also for not
>>mentioning that plants go very lushly in the cloudiest parts of
>>the world.
> 
> 
> I still want to argue this point but not at 28.8k...
> 
> Aside, congrats to the listmaster for killing the dupes.

Wow, 28.8k. Makes you want to get out and push.

Jose
-- 
Jose Marquez                       \  Cthulhu 2004
jhereg69 at earthlink.net              \  Why vote for
http://home.earthlink.net/~jhereg69  \  the lesser evil?



From howard at brazee.net  Fri Jul 30 11:26:15 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:26:15 -0600
Subject: Time and Space
In-Reply-To: <410A7A21.60105@earthlink.net>
References: <20040728231401.72993.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com> <Pine.LNX.4.58.0407300823340.31633@noric06.slac.stanford.edu> <410A7A21.60105@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <opsbyqt1bmmng2fm@emerald.he.net>

We have (at least) three different entities with three different ways of  
observing time and space.

Has anybody discussed how these different types observe and interact in  
time and space?


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Fri Jul 30 12:06:03 2004
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:06:03 -0500
Subject: Risks of dupes
In-Reply-To: <16650.22723.525398.436281@fnord.io.com> (Joshua Kronengold's
 message of "Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:18:43 -0500")
References: <m2acxidquo.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>
	<16650.22723.525398.436281@fnord.io.com>
Message-ID: <m26585co2s.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>

Joshua Kronengold <mneme at io.com> writes:

> David Dyer-Bennet writes:
>>Well, I actually suspect I found the ultimate underlying cause of the
>>duplicates.  So I've started turning back on some of the things I
>>turned off a while back.  So if I'm *wrong* the risks of getting some
>>dupes flowing around go up a little.  Can't make an omelette without
>>juggling eggs, or something. 
>
> Hmm.  In the intrest of morbid curiousity, what do you think it was?

A bootup script problem on NS2, the other server here, which caused it
to boot with both 63.224.10.73 *and* 63.224.10.74 (the second is GW in
normal service) enabled (event hough .74 had ONBOOT=no set).  That,
combined with two levels of ethernet switches, combined with NS2 being
the primary MX, caused some messages to loop and duplicate.  I think.

So far so good.  I'm going to switch the dragaera.info MX back to NS2
now; that'll take a while to propagate and see if anyting happens.  
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From mam at theworld.com  Fri Jul 30 21:14:13 2004
From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 00:14:13 -0400
Subject: Time and Space
In-Reply-To: <opsbyqt1bmmng2fm@emerald.he.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0407310008490.2253953-100000@shell01-g>

Howard Brazee wrote:

#We have (at least) three different entities with three different ways of
#observing time and space.
#
#Has anybody discussed how these different types observe and interact in
#time and space?

"Three different entities": Hmmm. Three different species?  Easterners,
Dragaerans, Serioli?  Actually, count the Jenoine in and you can lump
Easterners and Dragaerans together despite the factor-of-50 difference
in their life spans.

And well, if we're talking about lifespan, Sethra is in a class by
herself.  (She's in a class by herself no matter what we're talking
about.)

And then there are the gods.

And then there's the Necromancer.

Who have I missed?

-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
   http://cracksandshards.com
   a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website




From howard at brazee.net  Sat Jul 31 05:03:54 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 06:03:54 -0600
Subject: Time and Space
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0407310008490.2253953-100000@shell01-g>
Message-ID: <000201c476f6$7440e960$b07ba8c0@Dad133>


Howard Brazee wrote:

#We have (at least) three different entities with three different ways of
#observing time and space.
#
#Has anybody discussed how these different types observe and interact in
#time and space?

"Three different entities": Hmmm. Three different species?  Easterners,
Dragaerans, Serioli?  Actually, count the Jenoine in and you can lump
Easterners and Dragaerans together despite the factor-of-50 difference
in their life spans.

I would.   Lifespan doesn't change space-time.   The "(at least)" referred
to the Jenoine who at least have predictive abilities.

And well, if we're talking about lifespan, Sethra is in a class by
herself.  (She's in a class by herself no matter what we're talking
about.)

And then there are the gods.

They have space-time different from us.

And then there's the Necromancer.

A variation of godhood.

Who have I missed?


-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
   http://cracksandshards.com
   a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website






From jhereg69 at earthlink.net  Sat Jul 31 08:08:25 2004
From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:08:25 -0400
Subject: Time and Space
In-Reply-To: <000201c476f6$7440e960$b07ba8c0@Dad133>
References: <000201c476f6$7440e960$b07ba8c0@Dad133>
Message-ID: <410BB5E9.3050004@earthlink.net>

Howard Brazee wrote:
> Howard Brazee wrote:
> 
> #We have (at least) three different entities with three different ways of
> #observing time and space.
> #
> #Has anybody discussed how these different types observe and interact in
> #time and space?
> 
> "Three different entities": Hmmm. Three different species?  Easterners,
> Dragaerans, Serioli?  Actually, count the Jenoine in and you can lump
> Easterners and Dragaerans together despite the factor-of-50 difference
> in their life spans.
> 
> I would.   Lifespan doesn't change space-time.   The "(at least)" referred
> to the Jenoine who at least have predictive abilities.
> 
> And well, if we're talking about lifespan, Sethra is in a class by
> herself.  (She's in a class by herself no matter what we're talking
> about.)
> 
> And then there are the gods.
> 
> They have space-time different from us.
> 
> And then there's the Necromancer.
> 
> A variation of godhood.
> 
> Who have I missed?
> 
> 
> -- Mark A. Mandel
> [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
>    http://cracksandshards.com
>    a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website

Is it me, or did you just post as Mark?

Jose
-- 
Jose Marquez                       \  Cthulhu 2004
jhereg69 at earthlink.net              \  Why vote for
http://home.earthlink.net/~jhereg69  \  the lesser evil?



From rone at ennui.org  Sat Jul 31 12:44:27 2004
From: rone at ennui.org (rone)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:44:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Time and Space
In-Reply-To: <410BB5E9.3050004@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20040731194427.65C3A26C88@boredom.ennui.org>

Jose Marquez writes:
  Is it me, or did you just post as Mark?
  
He neglected to trim Mark's .sig.

rone
-- 
{Regarding SCO's claims against Linux,} the idea that I came up with is
that Linux should claim to be a parody of UNIX, since parody is Fair Use
and Protected Free Speech and all that.
				- Anthony de Boer <abuse at leftmind.net>


From mam at theworld.com  Sat Jul 31 14:22:44 2004
From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 17:22:44 -0400
Subject: Time and Space
In-Reply-To: <000201c476f6$7440e960$b07ba8c0@Dad133>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0407311644200.2302762-100000@shell01-g>

On Sat, 31 Jul 2004, Howard Brazee wrote without marking quoted text:

	THIS WAS ME (MARK MANDEL), QUOTING HOWARD:
#Howard Brazee wrote:
#
##We have (at least) three different entities with three different ways of
##observing time and space.
##
##Has anybody discussed how these different types observe and interact in
##time and space?
#

	THIS WAS ME (MARK MANDEL), WRITING FOR MYSELF:
#"Three different entities": Hmmm. Three different species?  Easterners,
#Dragaerans, Serioli?  Actually, count the Jenoine in and you can lump
#Easterners and Dragaerans together despite the factor-of-50 difference
#in their life spans.
#
	THIS WAS HOWARD:
#I would.   Lifespan doesn't change space-time.   The "(at least)" referred
#to the Jenoine who at least have predictive abilities.
#

	(MAM replying to Howard):
They also have a very different view of space, as we saw in Issola.

As far as life span is concerned: "Three different ways of observing
time and space", you said; nothing about space-time. A two- or
three-thousand-year life expectancy gives a person a different view of a
passing year or two.

In evidence:

She said, "Can you hold this for me? I don't think it will be dangerous
to you. It *is* dangerous for me to hold it just now."

I studied the vial to see how breakable it was. It wasn't very. I said,
"Sure. How long do you think you'll want me to hang onto it?"

"Not long. Twenty, thirty years maybe."

"Huh? Kiera -- "

"Oh. Yes. I guess that is a long time to you. Well, perhaps it won't be
that long. And, as I say, it shouldn't be dangerous for you."

	_Taltos_, Chapter 7, page 70 (Ace paperback 1988)

	MAM:
#And well, if we're talking about lifespan, Sethra is in a class by
#herself.  (She's in a class by herself no matter what we're talking
#about.)
#
#And then there are the gods.
#
	HB:
#They have space-time different from us.
#

        (MAM replying to Howard):
We agree. That counts.

	MAM:
#And then there's the Necromancer.
#
	HB:
#A variation of godhood.
#

        (MAM replying to Howard):
So, where does all this leave us? Gods, Jenoine, humans of both species
-- that's three. Then there are the Serioli. That conversation of
Morrolan with the Serioli in the cave in the mountain seems to indicate
again a different view toward time.

-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]




From mam at theworld.com  Sat Jul 31 14:24:43 2004
From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 17:24:43 -0400
Subject: Time and Space
In-Reply-To: <20040731194427.65C3A26C88@boredom.ennui.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0407311723470.2302762-100000@shell01-g>

#Jose Marquez writes:
#  Is it me, or did you just post as Mark?
#
#He neglected to trim Mark's .sig.


He also neglected to distinguish between where he was quoting me and
where he was speaking for himself. In my reply, just posted, I have made
those distinctions.

-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]




From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com  Wed Aug  4 19:25:31 2004
From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 22:25:31 EDT
Subject: Steven Brust's Agyar is out in trade paperback. August 2004
Message-ID: <ae.5e709f80.2e42f49b@aol.com>

Hi,

Steven Brust's Agyar is out in trade paperback.  

It is not a Dragaeran novel, but it is one of his books 
that I have not read yet.  So for me it is like another 
new Brust book just came out this year.  

Bye.

Linda G.


 

From shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com  Thu Aug  5 05:53:22 2004
From: shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com (S SHafer)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 05:53:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Steven Brust's Agyar is out in trade paperback. August 2004
In-Reply-To: <ae.5e709f80.2e42f49b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20040805125322.75602.qmail@web53405.mail.yahoo.com>

> It is not a Dragaeran novel, but it is one of his books 
> that I have not read yet. So for me it is like another 
> new Brust book just came out this year. 

Agyar is certainly worth a read, and you will recognize what I think of as Brust's trademark skill - first-person narratives.  The story of Agyar Janos, the narrator, reminds me much more of "The Sun, The Moon, and The Stars" than any of the Taltos books.  Worth a late-night read - ST


Yet the memory would not set into the setting sun, that green and frozen glance to the wide blue sea where broken hearts are wrecked out of their wounds.  A blind sky bleached white the intellect of human bone, skinning the emotions from the fracture to reveal the grief underneath.  And the mirror reveals me, a naked and vulnerable fact. - Dambudzo Marechera, Black Sunlight

From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM  Thu Aug  5 09:51:39 2004
From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 09:51:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Steven Brust's Agyar is out in trade paperback. August 2004 
Message-ID: <200408051651.i75GpdmX025257@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com>

Linda G. wrote: 
> Hi,
> 
> Steven Brust's Agyar is out in trade paperback.  
> 
> It is not a Dragaeran novel, but it is one of his books 
> that I have not read yet.  So for me it is like another 
> new Brust book just came out this year.  

This is a reprinting, I'm sure--I've had
a trade paperback of Agyar for awhile.

AbFab book, I must say.  Once again Brust played
with a genre as if it was his personal sandbox.
"Hmm... I think I'll flip this genre up in the air
and see how it lands.  Then I'll have some fun
with it."

Loved it (go figure:).

Chris
"I would rather go honestly to Hell, admitting that I leaped
knowingly into error and folly, than enter into the sweetest 
Heaven men can dream of by whining that I had been pushed."
	- _Freedom and Necessity_ - Brust & Bull



From zarkon at illrepute.org  Thu Aug  5 10:06:59 2004
From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 13:06:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Steven Brust's Agyar is out in trade paperback. August 2004
In-Reply-To: <ae.5e709f80.2e42f49b@aol.com>
References: <ae.5e709f80.2e42f49b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408051306270.4261@ueno.bdi.com>

On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote:

@> Steven Brust's Agyar is out in trade paperback.
@>
@> It is not a Dragaeran novel, but it is one of his books
@> that I have not read yet.  So for me it is like another
@> new Brust book just came out this year.

The new cover is... ah.. not as good. The book inside is definitely worth
reading.


From bph7 at cornell.edu  Thu Aug  5 10:10:15 2004
From: bph7 at cornell.edu (Ben Hiles)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 13:10:15 -0400
Subject: Steven Brust's Agyar is out in trade paperback. August 2004
In-Reply-To: <ae.5e709f80.2e42f49b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20040805130828.00bb6dd8@postoffice7.mail.cornell.edu>

At 10:25 PM 8/4/2004 -0400, FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote:
>Steven Brust's Agyar is out in trade paperback.
>
>It is not a Dragaeran novel, but it is one of his books
>that I have not read yet.  So for me it is like another
>new Brust book just came out this year.

This is probably my favorite Brust book.  I would highly recommend that you 
not read the back cover or any reviews, since most of them contain a rather 
large spoiler.

--Ben 




From Bato001 at aol.com  Thu Aug  5 10:18:21 2004
From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 13:18:21 EDT
Subject: Steven Brust's Agyar is out in trade paperback. August 2004
Message-ID: <15a.3b8e78b6.2e43c5dd@aol.com>

In a message dated 08/04/2004 10:30:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
FRIEDA2133 at aol.com writes:
Hi,

Steven Brust's Agyar is out in trade paperback.  

It is not a Dragaeran novel, but it is one of his books 
that I have not read yet.  So for me it is like another 
new Brust book just came out this year.  

Bye.

Linda G.
Like all of his books it's absolutely great. It is also one of my personal 
favorites. Steve takes a tired, worn out plot line and makes it jump through 
hoops. A must read for Brust fans and weird tale fans.

John D. Barbato, OD

From dd-b at dd-b.net  Thu Aug  5 11:03:14 2004
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: 05 Aug 2004 13:03:14 -0500
Subject: Duplicates
Message-ID: <1091728994.26812.TMDA@dd-b.net>

If anybody has seen any duplicates in the last 96 hours, please let me
know by private email.  From *here* it looks like things have
continued to work perfectly since the last set of changes.

(Geeky details for those interested: I added back the old primary MX
late last week, so mail to the list now mostly ends up on
ns2.dd-b.net.  And I switched the transfer method from ns2 to gw back
to qmail's qmqp protocol instead of the conventional smtp.

The next step will be to switch the *outbound* work back to ns2,
freeing up some resources on gw.  That will restore me to the state
before the dupes started.  It's looking more and more like the
duplicate-IP problem was the underlying cause.)
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From howard at brazee.net  Thu Aug  5 14:35:42 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 15:35:42 -0600
Subject: Steven Brust's Agyar is out in trade paperback. August 2004 
In-Reply-To: <200408051823.i75INcmX023415@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com>
Message-ID: <000801c47b34$29744ca0$b07ba8c0@Dad133>

Chris Olson - SunPS wrote:

After verifying which novel this was (I have a hard time with names) - off
the list, Chris replied to me:

> Yep, that's the one.  Just don't mention the
> *-word on the list.*  I accidently told someone
> about it and got chastized (appropriately, I
> must admit) for spoiling such a great "secret".

I am aware it's supposed to be a secret, from participating the SF
newsgroup.   But I don't really get that.  I don't *think* Steve was hiding
it nor expected it to be a "gotcha" revelation.

>> If so, I love his description of power and use it in various types of
>> discussions.
>
> Yes, and many other bits about it are great.
> Damn, now I'm going to have to go a re-read it.
> Oh, darn....
>
> :)
> Chris

If you tell someone to do something and he does, you have power.  (someone
have the exact quote?)

Bill Gates has more power than some Despots who can order enemies killed,
and certainly the President of the U.S., despite his similar limitations has
more power.   And so do our news media.




From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM  Thu Aug  5 14:55:59 2004
From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 14:55:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Steven Brust's Agyar is out in trade paperback. August 2004   
Message-ID: <200408052155.i75LtxmX011450@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com>

Howard Brazee wrote:
> I am aware it's supposed to be a secret, from participating the SF
> newsgroup.   But I don't really get that.  I don't *think* Steve was hiding
> it nor expected it to be a "gotcha" revelation.

Well, that is why I put the word in quotes.  I'm 
sure it's not on the level as, say, a certain Enchantress's
"extracurricular activities", but to the left, I'd just
as soon not spoil (oh, all right, 'not again spoil') a
new reader's possible revelation.  I have to keep
reminding myself of the damn thing, actually.  Which proves
the subtlety of our esteemed author, I think....

"I'll just slide this nugget over here.  Few will catch it,
and those who do will get a chuckle, if not a cookie."

I'd be interested in seeing a compiled list of the little
bits Brust tosses into his books, but I feel the task would
be futile.  We'd never find them all. <grin>


:)
Chris

"I would rather go honestly to Hell, admitting that I leaped
knowingly into error and folly, than enter into the sweetest 
Heaven men can dream of by whining that I had been pushed."
	- _Freedom and Necessity_ - Brust & Bull



From valerie at drizzle.com  Thu Aug  5 19:45:56 2004
From: valerie at drizzle.com (valerie at drizzle.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 19:45:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Steven Brust's Agyar is out in trade paperback. August 2004
In-Reply-To: <200408051651.i75GpdmX025257@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com>
References: <200408051651.i75GpdmX025257@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com>
Message-ID: <4644.216.162.201.185.1091760356.squirrel@drizzlemail.drizzle.com>

> Linda G. wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Steven Brust's Agyar is out in trade paperback.
>>

> "I would rather go honestly to Hell, admitting that I leaped
> knowingly into error and folly, than enter into the sweetest
> Heaven men can dream of by whining that I had been pushed."
> 	- _Freedom and Necessity_ - Brust & Bull

I really enjoyed _Freedom and Necessity_.  Can anyone point me to any
interviews with either author about that collaborative writing experience?
 I won't be that lazy and google for myself, but perhaps someone already
has something?

I am currently reading Bull's _War for the Oaks_  and not regretting any
moment.  Her dialogue and banter between characters is lovely.

*waving*
- valerie





From casey at the-bat.net  Thu Aug  5 20:54:15 2004
From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 23:54:15 -0400
Subject: Steve on _Freedom and Necessity_
In-Reply-To: <4644.216.162.201.185.1091760356.squirrel@drizzlemail.drizzle.com>
Message-ID: <003401c47b69$0c6f9bc0$7702a8c0@KCRINSP8200>

Valerie writ:
> I really enjoyed _Freedom and Necessity_.  Can anyone point 
> me to any interviews with either author about that 
> collaborative writing experience?  I won't be that lazy and 
> google for myself, but perhaps someone already has something?

The first stop when interested in Steve's take on one of his books should be
his books page.  http://www.dreamcafe.com/books.html#FandN

It's just a few sentences, but a worthwile bit to start with.

Casey



From zizban at adelphia.net  Fri Aug  6 06:50:16 2004
From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 09:50:16 -0400
Subject: Steve on _Freedom and Necessity_
In-Reply-To: <003401c47b69$0c6f9bc0$7702a8c0@KCRINSP8200>
References: <003401c47b69$0c6f9bc0$7702a8c0@KCRINSP8200>
Message-ID: <8C547824-E7AF-11D8-86D4-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net>


On Aug 5, 2004, at 11:54 PM, Casey Rousseau wrote:

> Valerie writ:
>> I really enjoyed _Freedom and Necessity_.  Can anyone point
>> me to any interviews with either author about that
>> collaborative writing experience?  I won't be that lazy and
>> google for myself, but perhaps someone already has something?
>
> The first stop when interested in Steve's take on one of his books 
> should be
> his books page.  http://www.dreamcafe.com/books.html#FandN
>
> It's just a few sentences, but a worthwile bit to start with.

Sometimes, when I am in a writing funk, I'll read Steve's comments 
about his books. Helps keeps me going through the tough spot. I really 
do wish he'd stop bashing Yendi, though.



From bio_phy at hotmail.com  Fri Aug  6 07:35:21 2004
From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 09:35:21 -0500
Subject: Steve on _Freedom and Necessity_
Message-ID: <BAY10-F22ZZbXkiLGFK00002fcb@hotmail.com>

>Sometimes, when I am in a writing funk, I'll read Steve's comments about 
>his books. Helps keeps me going through the tough spot. I really do wish 
>he'd stop bashing Yendi, though.


He already sorta has (to my great relief).

(What kind of writing do you do?  I'm a Technical Writer by day, do 
occasional Tech and Gaming news posts for 3DGPU.com, and try my hand at sf 
and fantasy shorts at deep-magic.net.)


johne (phy) cook
wisconsin, usa

_________________________________________________________________
Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to 
School Guide! http://special.msn.com/network/04backtoschool.armx



From zarkon at illrepute.org  Fri Aug  6 07:47:32 2004
From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 10:47:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Steven Brust's Agyar is out in trade paperback. August 2004
In-Reply-To: <4644.216.162.201.185.1091760356.squirrel@drizzlemail.drizzle.com>
References: <200408051651.i75GpdmX025257@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> <4644.216.162.201.185.1091760356.squirrel@drizzlemail.drizzle.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408061019360.4261@ueno.bdi.com>

On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 valerie at drizzle.com wrote:

@> I really enjoyed _Freedom and Necessity_.  Can anyone point me to any
@> interviews with either author about that collaborative writing experience?
@>  I won't be that lazy and google for myself, but perhaps someone already
@> has something?

Bits:

http://www.quantummuse.com/steven_brust_interview.html
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=5hacb9%24krk%241%40news5.wavefront.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=5htfmr%24och%241%40news5.wavefront.com

Back when I googled, I remember being surprised (and amused) when I found
out who wrote which parts.


From zizban at adelphia.net  Fri Aug  6 07:59:19 2004
From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 10:59:19 -0400
Subject: Steve on _Freedom and Necessity_
In-Reply-To: <BAY10-F22ZZbXkiLGFK00002fcb@hotmail.com>
References: <BAY10-F22ZZbXkiLGFK00002fcb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <31617916-E7B9-11D8-86D4-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net>


On Aug 6, 2004, at 10:35 AM, Johne Cook wrote:

>> Sometimes, when I am in a writing funk, I'll read Steve's comments 
>> about his books. Helps keeps me going through the tough spot. I 
>> really do wish he'd stop bashing Yendi, though.
>
>
> He already sorta has (to my great relief).
>
> (What kind of writing do you do?  I'm a Technical Writer by day, do 
> occasional Tech and Gaming news posts for 3DGPU.com, and try my hand 
> at sf and fantasy shorts at deep-magic.net.)
>
>
> johne (phy) cook
> wisconsin, usa

I am a retail drone at Linens n Things by day, in grad school at night 
(law) and I write sci-fi/fantasy whenever I can. I have a book 
published by a tiny local press (about 250 copies printed, hand woven 
bindings, nice) which sold out. I have it now reprinted by print on 
demand XLibris, who despite the awful cover, have been good to work 
with it.



From davids at Kithrup.COM  Fri Aug  6 11:42:29 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 11:42:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Steven Brust's Agyar is out in trade paperback. August 2004
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408061019360.4261@ueno.bdi.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040806111542.11400A-100000@kithrup.com>

On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, John Klein wrote:

>On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 valerie at drizzle.com wrote:
>
>@> I really enjoyed _Freedom and Necessity_.  Can anyone point me to any
>@> interviews with either author about that collaborative writing experience?
>
>Bits:
>

More bits:

   http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue224/interview.html

   http://www.greenmanreview.com/emmabull.html



From howard at brazee.net  Fri Aug  6 12:53:40 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 13:53:40 -0600
Subject: Sven & Ole
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040806111542.11400A-100000@kithrup.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040806111542.11400A-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <opscbtjqctmng2fm@emerald.he.net>

On Fri, 6 Aug 2004 11:42:29 -0700 (PDT), David Silberstein  
<davids at Kithrup.COM> wrote:


> More bits:
>
>    http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue224/interview.html
>

I just read in the above link:
Issola, more than many of the books--

Brust: Or Is Ole, as I call it. You know Ole? [Adopts Norwegian accent.]  
Dot Norvegian guy, Ole? Yah, I vus driving past Ole's house the udder day,  
he had a sign out front of his house, said "Boat for sale." And I stopped  
over dere and said, "Ole, vat's dot sign for? You don't got a boat, you  
chust got a combine and a John Deere." And he said, "Yah, und dey are boat  
for sale." You know, there are a lot of Swedes in Minnesota, where I lived  
up until recently. Norwegians always tell Swedish jokes, but the Swedes  
will not tell Norwegian jokes. They consider it rude. They tell Hittite  
jokes, because they figure no one can be offended by jokes about a culture  
that's been dead for thousands of years. I learned one of them. There's  
these two Hittites named Sven and Ole. ... You were saying?


I'm wondering - has anybody read any stories where the Norse God's talked  
Sven and Ole/Fargo style?


-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/


From asr at ufl.edu  Sat Aug  7 16:59:55 2004
From: asr at ufl.edu (asr at ufl.edu)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 19:59:55 -0400
Subject: RPG advice?
Message-ID: <200408080000.i77NxtaA107034@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu>


Greetings, all;

I'm musing about running a HERO RPG campaign in dragaera, and was wondering if
anyone had run across technical opinions about game mechanics, or was
interested in discussing same.

I'm thinking pre-interregnum settings, so my first challenge has been
modelling flashstones so that they aren't totally unbalancing.

Opinions? Ideas?

- Allen S. Rout



From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us  Sun Aug  8 16:00:48 2004
From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 19:00:48 -0400
Subject: Sven & Ole
In-Reply-To: <opscbtjqctmng2fm@emerald.he.net>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040806111542.11400A-100000@kithrup.com> <opscbtjqctmng2fm@emerald.he.net>
Message-ID: <20040808230048.GA31234@lokkur.dexter.mi.us>

On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 01:53:40PM -0600, Howard Brazee wrote:

> I'm wondering - has anybody read any stories where the Norse God's talked  
> Sven and Ole/Fargo style?

No, because the Norse Gods typically speak Norse - and with the correct
accent, to boot.

Sven and Ole, however, talk just like my late Norwegian grandmother.
-- 
   "Fifteen year olds are heaving balls of homones.  Libidos on legs.
Uncaring little lust goblins that would jerk off to a properly formed
ball of twine if the need presented itself."
    Something Positive", <http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp10062002.shtml>


From howard at brazee.net  Sun Aug  8 19:14:00 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 20:14:00 -0600
Subject: Sven & Ole
In-Reply-To: <20040808230048.GA31234@lokkur.dexter.mi.us>
Message-ID: <000001c47db6$899c2c90$b07ba8c0@Dad133>

Steve Simmons wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 01:53:40PM -0600, Howard Brazee wrote:
>
>> I'm wondering - has anybody read any stories where the Norse God's
>> talked Sven and Ole/Fargo style?
>
> No, because the Norse Gods typically speak Norse - and with the
> correct accent, to boot.

True - but look at how people react to movies.  When Tony Curtis shows a
Brooklyn accent "Yonder is the Castle of my father" in a situation where no
modern language fits - they laugh.   We have British accents for Romans in
Spartacus, and American accents for the slaves.   Robin Hood did *not* speak
in any accent we would recognize as British today.


> Sven and Ole, however, talk just like my late Norwegian grandmother.


Still think of a variation of _American Gods_.   A Norse God kept alive by
your Norwegian grandmother would be Her type of Norse.





From TimN at rcn.com  Sun Aug  8 23:23:17 2004
From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 02:23:17 -0400
Subject: Sven & Ole
References: <000001c47db6$899c2c90$b07ba8c0@Dad133>
Message-ID: <005401c47dd9$5ca7e9e0$d916fea9@ananda>

> Steve Simmons wrote:
> Still think of a variation of _American Gods_.   A Norse God kept alive by
> your Norwegian grandmother would be Her type of Norse.

This book just plain rocked. The description of Mr. Nancy's house was
amazingly unique, as was the dialog. You have to admire an author who can
use so much colorful metaphor without making it sound stupid.



From skychild70 at hotmail.com  Mon Aug  9 18:59:25 2004
From: skychild70 at hotmail.com (paul w)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 01:59:25 +0000
Subject: What does a Jhereg nest look like?
Message-ID: <BAY10-F9dXuYFyKqACj0000ec00@hotmail.com>

Hi all. Does anyone remember any reference as to what a Jhereg's nest looks 
like? If not, I'd love to hear thoughts as to what you think it might look 
like. This has preoccupied me recently.



-Paul-

_________________________________________________________________
Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools and 
more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx



From howard at brazee.net  Tue Aug 10 04:46:33 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 05:46:33 -0600
Subject: What does a Jhereg nest look like?
In-Reply-To: <BAY10-F9dXuYFyKqACj0000ec00@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000401c47ecf$afe3d2d0$b07ba8c0@Dad133>

paul w wrote:
> Hi all. Does anyone remember any reference as to what a Jhereg's nest
> looks like? If not, I'd love to hear thoughts as to what you think it
> might look like. This has preoccupied me recently.


We've seen a whole Jhereg city!




From jsimons at genelco.com  Tue Aug 10 07:36:14 2004
From: jsimons at genelco.com (Jim Simons)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:36:14 -0400
Subject: RPG advice?
In-Reply-To: <200408080000.i77NxtaA107034@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu>
Message-ID: <002c01c47ee7$645a9660$6501a8c0@gss.genelco.com>

> - Allen S. Rout wrote

> I'm musing about running a HERO RPG campaign in dragaera, and
> was wondering if
> anyone had run across technical opinions about game mechanics, or was
> interested in discussing same.

I have a group of friend, some of which are Brust fans.  We were interested
in starting role-playing again after a couple of year hiatus, and I decided
to start one in the Jhereg universe.  We are using AD&D 3rd Edition rule set
(which is new to me as well.. as the bulk of my AD&D experience was before
they had editions).  We play bi-weekly with a group of eight, and have had
about six session so far.  All the characters are of the Jhereg house, 5
"Humans", 3 "Easterners" (which is a bit high..) Used a few house rules

1) No alignment, you are what you play
2) No shield.. parry daggers that serve the same function
3) Limited armor - leather only.. am thinking of replacing armor entirely
with a "parry bonus" for fighters as a balance adjustment, as lack of armor
takes away one of the fighters abilities
4) Sorcery is clerical magic, comes from the orb instead of deities.  Some
specialized spells added (such as teleport)
5) Witchcraft is Arcane (wizard) magic.  Same rules about specialized magic
6) Only races available are Elves ("human") and human ("Easterner").

>
> I'm thinking pre-interregnum settings, so my first challenge has been
> modelling flashstones so that they aren't totally unbalancing.
>

D&D combat is very simplistic, so flashstones were not a problem.  I decided
they were ranged attack that ignored armor (but you still get dex bonuses).
Damage if hit is based on the skill of the sorcerer that create them, so
they can do anywhere from 2d6 to 6d6 or so..  Same with number of uses - the
can be one shot, or hold multiple charges.

At least half of each session is role-play rather than combat anyway, so the
combat is minor.  That's where the background and setting really shine.
About half the players have gone through at least the Vlad series, and they
are loving it.. especially the intrigues (they are in the midst of trying to
figure out a Yendi plot...)  The ones that have not read the books have
picked up enough from those that have to keep up and have a good time.

Jim S



From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 10 09:21:32 2004
From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 09:21:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Steven Brust's Agyar is out in trade paperback. August 2004 
In-Reply-To: <000801c47b34$29744ca0$b07ba8c0@Dad133>
Message-ID: <20040810162132.61367.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Howard Brazee <howard at brazee.net> wrote:

> Chris Olson - SunPS wrote:
> 
> After verifying which novel this was (I have a hard time with names) -
> off
> the list, Chris replied to me:
> 
> > Yep, that's the one.  Just don't mention the
> > *-word on the list.*  I accidently told someone
> > about it and got chastized (appropriately, I
> > must admit) for spoiling such a great "secret".
> 
> I am aware it's supposed to be a secret, from participating the SF
> newsgroup.   But I don't really get that.  I don't *think* Steve was
> hiding
> it nor expected it to be a "gotcha" revelation.
...

The way it worked for me is that I said, "Hm."  "Hmm, what about
that other thing back there?"  "HMmmm..."  "Aha!"  According to
the Critic's Fallacy (which I just invented, but I may not have
been the first), I believe the way I read it is the way Steve
intended it.  But I don't think there's a "gotcha" point in the
book--you have the fun of the "Aha!" whenever you get it.

Jerry Friedman


		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 


From howard at brazee.net  Tue Aug 10 10:11:39 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 11:11:39 -0600
Subject: RPG advice?
In-Reply-To: <002c01c47ee7$645a9660$6501a8c0@gss.genelco.com>
References: <002c01c47ee7$645a9660$6501a8c0@gss.genelco.com>
Message-ID: <opsci0ppojmng2fm@emerald.he.net>

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:36:14 -0400, Jim Simons <jsimons at genelco.com> wrote:

>> - Allen S. Rout wrote
>
>> I'm musing about running a HERO RPG campaign in dragaera, and
>> was wondering if
>> anyone had run across technical opinions about game mechanics, or was
>> interested in discussing same.

I did role playing games back when the D&D rules were a non-magical  
pamplet called _Chainmail_, and stopped before they got to hard bound  
rules.

I recently started reading Elizabeth Moon (she's going to be MileHiCon  
GOH), and when I found her first book, was disapointed to see that trilogy  
was in a basic D&D world.  She got more creative since then.


> I have a group of friend, some of which are Brust fans.  We were  
> interested
> in starting role-playing again after a couple of year hiatus, and I  
> decided
> to start one in the Jhereg universe.  We are using AD&D 3rd Edition rule  
> set
> (which is new to me as well.. as the bulk of my AD&D experience was  
> before they had editions).

Why?   Use the rules as little as possible, use story telling as much as  
possible.

> We play bi-weekly with a group of eight, and have   had
> about six session so far.  All the characters are of the Jhereg house, 5
> "Humans", 3 "Easterners" (which is a bit high..) Used a few house rules

What are the backgrounds of the elves?   Breeding makes a significant  
difference.   Give them pasts that matter.

> 1) No alignment, you are what you play
> 2) No shield.. parry daggers that serve the same function
> 3) Limited armor - leather only.. am thinking of replacing armor entirely
> with a "parry bonus" for fighters as a balance adjustment, as lack of  
> armor takes away one of the fighters abilities
> 4) Sorcery is clerical magic, comes from the orb instead of deities.   
> Some specialized spells added (such as teleport)
> 5) Witchcraft is Arcane (wizard) magic.  Same rules about specialized  
> magic

Those are the only two types of magic you have?

> 6) Only races available are Elves ("human") and human ("Easterner").
>
>>
>> I'm thinking pre-interregnum settings, so my first challenge has been
>> modelling flashstones so that they aren't totally unbalancing.

Remember the Orb and related sorcery were much less developed.   But if  
you do this, give extra credit for players whose characters talk as Paarfi  
would have them talk.

> D&D combat is very simplistic, so flashstones were not a problem.  I  
> decided
> they were ranged attack that ignored armor (but you still get dex  
> bonuses).
> Damage if hit is based on the skill of the sorcerer that create them, so
> they can do anywhere from 2d6 to 6d6 or so..  Same with number of uses -  
> the
> can be one shot, or hold multiple charges.
>
> At least half of each session is role-play rather than combat anyway, so  
> the
> combat is minor.  That's where the background and setting really shine.
> About half the players have gone through at least the Vlad series, and  
> they
> are loving it.. especially the intrigues (they are in the midst of  
> trying to
> figure out a Yendi plot...)  The ones that have not read the books have
> picked up enough from those that have to keep up and have a good time.
>
> Jim S
>

Decide how to handle + weapons.   There aren't many Great Weapons.     
Morganti blades seem more common, but don't fight better.   Figure how  
often deaths are unrevivable.

-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/


From bio_phy at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 10 12:41:36 2004
From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:41:36 -0500
Subject: http://roommatefromhell.com/
Message-ID: <BAY10-F48sNfX24j5Ew000122ab@hotmail.com>

I've never heard of Jim Munroe, but he's got an interesting idea for a blog; 
he's using it as a vehicle for telling a book-length story in 88 parts.

When I was younger and single, I had this idea that I'd write one page of a 
recurring story per day as an exercise in pulpish adventure as a gift for my 
intended.   Nowadays, that would take the form of a blog.

Here's the write-up of the exercise:
http://nomediakings.org/books/roommatefromhellcom.html

"When Kate discovers that her roommate identifies as a demoness, she figures 
it's too sacrilicious a secret to keep to herself: she tells all on her 
blog, roommatefromhell.com.

This is the basic gist of my new book, An Opening Act of Unspeakable Evil, a 
tale of the urban occult told entirely through Kate's entries. Starting 
today, I'll be posting one a day to the faux roommatefromhell.com blog until 
all 88 entries (the whole book) are up. After that I'll be writing a spinoff 
story based on how the poll on the site goes."

Jim Munroe is a novelist who left HarperCollins to showcase and propagate 
indie press alternatives to Rupert Murdoch-style consolidation. Why should 
media magnates have all the fun?

Here's a snip:
http://roommatefromhell.com/

"She handed me a beer and I toasted her. ?That was? Remind me never to call 
you a whore,? I said. I took a swig from the bottle and put it on the bar 
because my hand was a little shaky. I cast around for a stool because my 
legs were rubbery, too.

She smiled. Her hand was steady, but her eyes were a little funny. She 
turned her head as a boy she knew came by before I could really look. Maybe 
I would have seen that quality I?d seen tonight in them. Maybe they would 
have been flying.

OK, I?m still smelling that weird smell. I?m going to go check her room. 
Maybe a candle?s still burning or something."


johne (phy) cook
wisconsin, usa

_________________________________________________________________
Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools and 
more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx



From skychild70 at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 10 13:26:30 2004
From: skychild70 at hotmail.com (paul w)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 20:26:30 +0000
Subject: What does a jhereg nest look like?
Message-ID: <BAY10-F15scRM0YpdSJ0001255b@hotmail.com>


>
>paul w wrote:
> > Hi all. Does anyone remember any reference as to what a Jhereg's nest
> > looks like? If not, I'd love to hear thoughts as to what you think it
> > might look like. This has preoccupied me recently.
>
>
>We've seen a whole Jhereg city!
>

Ok. Without any clues to work from, I'll just keep reading and hope I find 
the city you mention. Perhaps I should have specified jhereg the creature, 
not Jhereg the House, but I kinda figured that was a given. Thanx for the 
response.

_________________________________________________________________
Don?t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/



From matthew at infodancer.org  Tue Aug 10 13:22:02 2004
From: matthew at infodancer.org (Matthew Hunter)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:22:02 -0500
Subject: RPG advice?
In-Reply-To: <opsci0ppojmng2fm@emerald.he.net>
References: <002c01c47ee7$645a9660$6501a8c0@gss.genelco.com> <opsci0ppojmng2fm@emerald.he.net>
Message-ID: <20040810202202.GH11307@infodancer.org>

On Tue, Aug 10, 2004 at 11:11:39AM -0600, Howard Brazee <howard at brazee.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:36:14 -0400, Jim Simons <jsimons at genelco.com> wrote:
> >>- Allen S. Rout wrote
> >>I'm musing about running a HERO RPG campaign in dragaera, and
> >>was wondering if
> >>anyone had run across technical opinions about game mechanics, or was
> >>interested in discussing same.
> I did role playing games back when the D&D rules were a non-magical  
> pamplet called _Chainmail_, and stopped before they got to hard bound  
> rules.
> 
> I recently started reading Elizabeth Moon (she's going to be MileHiCon  
> GOH), and when I found her first book, was disapointed to see that trilogy  
> was in a basic D&D world.  She got more creative since then.

Well, that's debateable.  

I think Moon's Paksenarrion trilogy was an excellent 
implementation of a standard "D&D-type" adventure.  It's well 
written and enjoyable to read, even though it is clearly set in 
a world very similar to GreyHawk (with the serial numbers filed 
off).   It certainly didn't disappoint me.  Her later books often 
did, to the extent that I haven't read most of them.

-- 
Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org)
Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt
Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp
Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/weblog/index.jsp


From andrew.durston at smiths-aerospace.com  Tue Aug 10 13:55:29 2004
From: andrew.durston at smiths-aerospace.com (Durston, Andrew (AGRE))
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:55:29 -0600
Subject: RPG advice?
Message-ID: <D15D500D6CF7C047BF2D02EB790DFA25100C5C@cossmgmbx03.email.corp.tld>


Hi all,

My wife is also a big fan of the combined Paksennarion books. She reads it once every year or so. She wasn't as fond as the follow-on Gird (was it?) books.

Ciao,
Andrew



-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew Hunter [mailto:matthew at infodancer.org]
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 4:22 PM
To: dragaera at dragaera.info
Subject: Re: RPG advice?
> I recently started reading Elizabeth Moon (she's going to be MileHiCon 
> GOH), and when I found her first book, was disapointed to see that trilogy 
> was in a basic D&D world.  She got more creative since then.

Well, that's debateable. 

I think Moon's Paksenarrion trilogy was an excellent
implementation of a standard "D&D-type" adventure.  It's well
written and enjoyable to read, even though it is clearly set in
a world very similar to GreyHawk (with the serial numbers filed
off).   It certainly didn't disappoint me.  Her later books often
did, to the extent that I haven't read most of them.

--
Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org)
Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt
Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp
Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/weblog/index.jsp

******************************************
The information contained in, or attached to, this e-mail, may contain confidential information and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed and may be subject to legal privilege.  If you have received this e-mail in error you should notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail, delete the message from your system and notify your system manager.  Please do not copy it for any purpose, or disclose its contents to any other person.  The views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company.  The recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of viruses.  The company accepts no liability for any damage caused, directly or indirectly, by any virus transmitted in this email.
******************************************


From mflanigan at carolina.rr.com  Tue Aug 10 14:08:07 2004
From: mflanigan at carolina.rr.com (Mike)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 17:08:07 -0400
Subject: RPG advice?
In-Reply-To: <opsci0ppojmng2fm@emerald.he.net>
References: <002c01c47ee7$645a9660$6501a8c0@gss.genelco.com> <opsci0ppojmng2fm@emerald.he.net>
Message-ID: <41193937.4060507@carolina.rr.com>

Regarding the magic, you might consider looking at Arcana Unearthed.  It 
gives an alternate magic system that I've been told is kind of 
interesting.  Might also consider adapting some of the classes as well.

Howard Brazee wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 10:36:14 -0400, Jim Simons <jsimons at genelco.com> 
> wrote:
>
>>> - Allen S. Rout wrote
>>
>>
>>> I'm musing about running a HERO RPG campaign in dragaera, and
>>> was wondering if
>>> anyone had run across technical opinions about game mechanics, or was
>>> interested in discussing same.
>>
>
> I did role playing games back when the D&D rules were a non-magical  
> pamplet called _Chainmail_, and stopped before they got to hard bound  
> rules.
>
> I recently started reading Elizabeth Moon (she's going to be 
> MileHiCon  GOH), and when I found her first book, was disapointed to 
> see that trilogy  was in a basic D&D world.  She got more creative 
> since then.
>
>
>> I have a group of friend, some of which are Brust fans.  We were  
>> interested
>> in starting role-playing again after a couple of year hiatus, and I  
>> decided
>> to start one in the Jhereg universe.  We are using AD&D 3rd Edition 
>> rule  set
>> (which is new to me as well.. as the bulk of my AD&D experience was  
>> before they had editions).
>
>
> Why?   Use the rules as little as possible, use story telling as much 
> as  possible.
>
>> We play bi-weekly with a group of eight, and have   had
>> about six session so far.  All the characters are of the Jhereg house, 5
>> "Humans", 3 "Easterners" (which is a bit high..) Used a few house rules
>
>
> What are the backgrounds of the elves?   Breeding makes a significant  
> difference.   Give them pasts that matter.
>
>> 1) No alignment, you are what you play
>> 2) No shield.. parry daggers that serve the same function
>> 3) Limited armor - leather only.. am thinking of replacing armor 
>> entirely
>> with a "parry bonus" for fighters as a balance adjustment, as lack 
>> of  armor takes away one of the fighters abilities
>> 4) Sorcery is clerical magic, comes from the orb instead of 
>> deities.   Some specialized spells added (such as teleport)
>> 5) Witchcraft is Arcane (wizard) magic.  Same rules about 
>> specialized  magic
>
>
> Those are the only two types of magic you have?
>
>> 6) Only races available are Elves ("human") and human ("Easterner").
>>
>>>
>>> I'm thinking pre-interregnum settings, so my first challenge has been
>>> modelling flashstones so that they aren't totally unbalancing.
>>
>
> Remember the Orb and related sorcery were much less developed.   But 
> if  you do this, give extra credit for players whose characters talk 
> as Paarfi  would have them talk.
>
>> D&D combat is very simplistic, so flashstones were not a problem.  I  
>> decided
>> they were ranged attack that ignored armor (but you still get dex  
>> bonuses).
>> Damage if hit is based on the skill of the sorcerer that create them, so
>> they can do anywhere from 2d6 to 6d6 or so..  Same with number of 
>> uses -  the
>> can be one shot, or hold multiple charges.
>>
>> At least half of each session is role-play rather than combat anyway, 
>> so  the
>> combat is minor.  That's where the background and setting really shine.
>> About half the players have gone through at least the Vlad series, 
>> and  they
>> are loving it.. especially the intrigues (they are in the midst of  
>> trying to
>> figure out a Yendi plot...)  The ones that have not read the books have
>> picked up enough from those that have to keep up and have a good time.
>>
>> Jim S
>>
>
> Decide how to handle + weapons.   There aren't many Great Weapons.     
> Morganti blades seem more common, but don't fight better.   Figure 
> how  often deaths are unrevivable.
>



From howard at brazee.net  Tue Aug 10 17:50:48 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 18:50:48 -0600
Subject: RPG advice?
In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040810190440.02f03d80@pop.east.cox.net>
Message-ID: <000101c47f3d$3e8a2530$b07ba8c0@Dad133>

Peter H. Granzeau wrote:
> At 11:11 08/10/2004 -0600, Howard Brazee wrote:
>> I recently started reading Elizabeth Moon (she's going to be
>> MileHiCon GOH), and when I found her first book, was disapointed to
>> see that trilogy was in a basic D&D world.  She got more creative
>> since then.
>
> Why would you have gone all the way back and read her first books?
> Were you _looking_ for something to hate?

I wanted to become familiar with her works, saw a 3-in-one big paperback
that had favorable blurbs.  Her prose is decent, her characterizations good,
I just was a bit irritated about the D&D setting.

In her Space Opera she explored what immorality drugs can do to families and
succession.  I hope MileHiCon can get her in a panel with Wil McCarthy about
this topic, which he explores in more depth.

I have re-read Steve's first books and liked them very much.




From jimkatz at ix.netcom.com  Tue Aug 10 18:16:28 2004
From: jimkatz at ix.netcom.com (Jim Katz)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 21:16:28 -0400
Subject: http://roommatefromhell.com/
References: <BAY10-F48sNfX24j5Ew000122ab@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4119736C.69A18AC9@ix.netcom.com>

Hi Johne,
This is being done by another blog as well, and the latest is some
interesting sci fi. Check out: The Speculist at
http://www.speculist.com/  see the current episode of The Council #4, or
go to this link for the novella: Stillness
http://www.speculist.com/archives/cat_stillness.html

Regards,

Jim

Johne Cook wrote:
> 
> I've never heard of Jim Munroe, but he's got an interesting idea for a blog;
> he's using it as a vehicle for telling a book-length story in 88 parts.
> 
> When I was younger and single, I had this idea that I'd write one page of a
> recurring story per day as an exercise in pulpish adventure as a gift for my
> intended.   Nowadays, that would take the form of a blog.
> 
> Here's the write-up of the exercise:
> http://nomediakings.org/books/roommatefromhellcom.html
> 
-- 
! Jim Katz


From mam at theworld.com  Tue Aug 10 18:52:23 2004
From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 21:52:23 -0400
Subject: RPG advice?
In-Reply-To: <000101c47f3d$3e8a2530$b07ba8c0@Dad133>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0408102147560.3273258-100000@shell01-g>

#Peter H. Granzeau wrote:
#> At 11:11 08/10/2004 -0600, Howard Brazee wrote:
#>> I recently started reading Elizabeth Moon (she's going to be

#In her Space Opera she explored what immorality drugs can do to families and
#succession.  I hope MileHiCon can get her in a panel with Wil McCarthy about
#this topic, which he explores in more depth.

Yes, it's pretty to see that immorality drugs would have a serious
effect on families. What they would do to succession -- I assume you
mean dynastic succession -- is harder to imagine.

(If you think I'm missing out on something obvious, look closely at the
word before "drugs". <eg>)

-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]




From fides at kludgeco.com  Wed Aug 11 04:33:50 2004
From: fides at kludgeco.com (Fides)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 12:33:50 +0100
Subject: http://roommatefromhell.com/
In-Reply-To: <4119736C.69A18AC9@ix.netcom.com>
References: <BAY10-F48sNfX24j5Ew000122ab@hotmail.com> <4119736C.69A18AC9@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <411A041E.1080906@kludgeco.com>

Jim Katz wrote:

>Hi Johne,
>This is being done by another blog as well, and the latest is some
>interesting sci fi. 
>

Guys, I have to tell you fan fiction writers have been doing this for 
years. Individual journals, community writing journals, role play 
games.... a lot of people have been doing it for a long time both for 
'borrowed' and original characters. One of the advantages is that you 
can friends lock it  if you so desire which saves the bother of setting 
up a password protected site.

Even I have a short story journal - it's a useful off site back up and I 
can group the different the different ficlets together in different ways 
as memories. It gives me a space to play with my original characters in 
little snapshots that aren't big enough or important enough to go on my 
website. I would say journals are very good it you write in descreet 
chunks and in order. Ninty percent of the time I bounce around my 
stories in no particular order and I have other means of distribution 
which is why I mainly use mine for storage rather than the writing 
process. It can help to keep you motivated  and it is a quick and easy 
way to publish (or correct if/when) you notice any errors.

Good luck,

:-)

Fides


From howard at brazee.net  Wed Aug 11 04:55:12 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 05:55:12 -0600
Subject: RPG advice?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0408102147560.3273258-100000@shell01-g>
Message-ID: <000301c47f9a$0fcb0130$b07ba8c0@Dad133>

Mark A Mandel wrote:
> #Peter H. Granzeau wrote:
> #> At 11:11 08/10/2004 -0600, Howard Brazee wrote:
> #>> I recently started reading Elizabeth Moon (she's going to be
>
> #In her Space Opera she explored what immorality drugs can do to
> families and #succession.  I hope MileHiCon can get her in a panel
> with Wil McCarthy about #this topic, which he explores in more depth.
>
> Yes, it's pretty to see that immorality drugs would have a serious
> effect on families. What they would do to succession -- I assume you
> mean dynastic succession -- is harder to imagine.
>
> (If you think I'm missing out on something obvious, look closely at
> the
> word before "drugs". <eg>)


LOL!

My bad.   But long lived generations could have tremendous social
implications.  Steve gets around that by having Dragaerans have just as long
generations.   I never quite believed in their lifespans, but in order to
have elves as the (human) protagonists, he was obliged to give them long
lifespans.   Making them all immortal wouldn't work at all.




From dar at horusinc.com  Wed Aug 11 07:00:51 2004
From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 09:00:51 -0500
Subject: RPG advice?
In-Reply-To: <000301c47f9a$0fcb0130$b07ba8c0@Dad133>
Message-ID: <E1Butf0-0006BO-00@grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net>

>>But long lived generations could have tremendous social
implications.  Steve gets around that by having Dragaerans have just as long
generations.   I never quite believed in their lifespans, but in order to
have elves as the (human) protagonists, he was obliged to give them long
lifespans.   Making them all immortal wouldn't work at all.<<


Y'know, I don't think it has particularly 'tremendous' social implications
at all. The 'elfs' started out with long lifespans, it's not something which
developed suddenly as a 'technological' innovation. I think that a greater
problem of socio-legal impact on families, succession, and related topics
would be resurrection.

We start to see the problems inherent in this with Alieria and the whole
inheritance issue, as well as Sethra being undead...

David A Rodemaker




From abcmm at att.net  Wed Aug 11 10:39:08 2004
From: abcmm at att.net (abcmm at att.net)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:39:08 +0000
Subject: RPG advice?
Message-ID: <081120041739.1624.411A59BC00044F7D00000658216124364603030C0D0E@att.net>

I would also agree with the Deed of Paksennarion being much better than the "Gird Prequels"...

-------------- Original message from "Durston, Andrew (AGRE)" : -------------- 

> 
> Hi all, 
> 
> My wife is also a big fan of the combined Paksennarion books. She reads it once 
> every year or so. She wasn't as fond as the follow-on Gird (was it?) books. 
> 
> Ciao, 
> Andrew 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Matthew Hunter [mailto:matthew at infodancer.org] 
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 4:22 PM 
> To: dragaera at dragaera.info 
> Subject: Re: RPG advice? 
> > I recently started reading Elizabeth Moon (she's going to be MileHiCon 
> 
> > GOH), and when I found her first book, was disapointed to see that trilogy 
> 
> > was in a basic D&D world. She got more creative since then. 
> 
> Well, that's debateable. 
> 
> 
> I think Moon's Paksenarrion trilogy was an excellent 
> 
> implementation of a standard "D&D-type" adventure. It's well 
> 
> written and enjoyable to read, even though it is clearly set in 
> 
> a world very similar to GreyHawk (with the serial numbers filed 
> 
> off). It certainly didn't disappoint me. Her later books often 
> 
> did, to the extent that I haven't read most of them. 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Matthew Hunter (matthew at infodancer.org) 
> Public Key: http://matthew.infodancer.org/public_key.txt 
> Homepage: http://matthew.infodancer.org/index.jsp 
> Politics: http://www.triggerfinger.org/weblog/index.jsp 
> 
> ****************************************** 
> The information contained in, or attached to, this e-mail, may contain 
> confidential information and is intended solely for the use of the individual or 
> entity to whom they are addressed and may be subject to legal privilege. If you 
> have received this e-mail in error you should notify the sender immediately by 
> reply e-mail, delete the message from your system and notify your system 
> manager. Please do not copy it for any purpose, or disclose its contents to any 
> other person. The views or opinions presented in this e-mail are solely those 
> of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. The 
> recipient should check this e-mail and any attachments for the presence of 
> viruses. The company accepts no liability for any damage caused, directly or 
> indirectly, by any virus transmitted in this email. 
> ****************************************** 

From dd-b at dd-b.net  Wed Aug 11 20:25:08 2004
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: 11 Aug 2004 22:25:08 -0500
Subject: National Duplicate Service Forecast
Message-ID: <1092281108.9681.TMDA@dd-b.net>

Well, it *looks* like I got away with it by luck; but I did create a
number of duplicates in my personal incoming mail earlier tonight
while improving the process by which incoming mail is handled.  At
this point it seems likely that none of them hit this list.  I hope.  

And the new process may actually remove one remaining very
low-probability way to create duplicates, *and* will improve
responsiveness of local email and list email.  Unless of course
there's an unforseen effect somewhere :-). 
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From lister at insaneninjahero.com  Thu Aug 12 21:29:08 2004
From: lister at insaneninjahero.com (Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 21:29:08 -0700
Subject: National Duplicate Service Forecast
In-Reply-To: <1092281108.9681.TMDA@dd-b.net>
References: <1092281108.9681.TMDA@dd-b.net>
Message-ID: <411C4394.30705@insaneninjahero.com>

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> Well, it *looks* like I got away with it by luck; but I did create a
> number of duplicates in my personal incoming mail earlier tonight
> while improving the process by which incoming mail is handled.  At
> this point it seems likely that none of them hit this list.  I hope.  
> 
> And the new process may actually remove one remaining very
> low-probability way to create duplicates, *and* will improve
> responsiveness of local email and list email.  Unless of course
> there's an unforseen effect somewhere :-). 

Unforseen effects when tweaking mail servers &tc?

Never heard of such a thing.

We all appriciate your work, David. Thank you for hosting this mad, mad, 
mad, mad list.

Derrill


From phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu  Thu Aug 12 22:20:15 2004
From: phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:20:15 -0700
Subject: Linguistics and population
In-Reply-To: <20040727002400.5808.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <D6F03173A5D7FC478809205D575977A70138C1AC@TBFCU_EMAIL.TampabayFCU.org> <20040727002400.5808.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20040813052015.GA28442@ofb.net>

On Mon, Jul 26, 2004 at 05:24:00PM -0700, Jerry Friedman wrote:

> Indeed.  For all we know, it could use left-over sorcerous energy
> to *raise* the energy of the infrared in Furnacelight, thus
> shifting it up to orange and supplying more energy for crops.
> (It would also scatter the light, but that wouldn't make much
> difference to the available energy.)

Actually, I think scattered light is better for plants -- they're bathed in
light from all directions, vs. having a sharply preferred direction, with a
lot of their leaves getting in the way of each other.

> to preserve topsoil have been known for a long time.  Anyway,
> if you can use sorcery to heal people, you can use it to fix
> nitrogen, even if you don't know what nitrogen is.  Not to
> mention phosphorus, potassium, and all those micronutrients
> that fertilizer makers want me to pay a lot of money for.

Also, if the Orb can control tectonics and major storms for 200,000 years, it
may be able to quietly hold or shuffle topsoil around.

Hmm.  Maybe such things were the primary function, at least in Zerika I's
mind, and sorcery was developed as a side effect.

-xx- Damien X-) 


From shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 13 05:35:51 2004
From: shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com (S SHafer)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 05:35:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Linguistics and population
In-Reply-To: <20040813052015.GA28442@ofb.net>
Message-ID: <20040813123551.98021.qmail@web53402.mail.yahoo.com>


>Also, if the Orb can control tectonics and major
>storms for 200,000 years, it may be able to quietly 
>hold or shuffle topsoil around.

>Hmm. Maybe such things were the primary function, at 
>least in Zerika I's mind, and sorcery was developed
>as a side effect.

Isn't the orb's purpose in the grand scheme of things
to keep the Jenoine in line (through the use of
sorcery)?



From jsimons at genelco.com  Sat Aug 14 05:57:27 2004
From: jsimons at genelco.com (Jim Simons)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 08:57:27 -0400
Subject: RPG advice?
In-Reply-To: <opsci0ppojmng2fm@emerald.he.net>
Message-ID: <012d01c481fe$41acb390$6801a8c0@gss.genelco.com>


Jim Simons wrote:
> > I have a group of friend, some of which are Brust fans.  We were
> > interested in starting role-playing again after a couple of year
> hiatus, and I  decided to start one in the Jhereg universe.  We are using
AD&D 3rd
> Edition rule set

Howard Brazee asked:
> Why?   Use the rules as little as possible, use story telling
> as much as  possible.

Agreed, but a good RPG campaign is a combination of both.  Eventually when
the players decide to burn down a rival warehouse by driving a wagonload of
naphtha into the center and igniting it, and warehouse guards choose to
object, or when they decide to seduce a reluctant Dzurlord into a
compromising position, and need to judge the success of their efforts, a
rule set for resolving conflicts is necessary.

Using an establish rule set help give the player a better feeling that they
are at least partly in control of their destiny - that's they are not just
"novel characters" in a pre-determined play where everything is fixed.   On
the other hand, a good game master never lets the rules get in the way of a
good story, or a good adventure.

Making up a custom rule set is possible (I've done it before) but more
complex than we were looking for in a semi-monthly "get together" type
campaign.

As a side note.. the wargamer in me actually prefers the Rolemaster rule set
for fantasy adventure spells and combat (Motto: Combat is more than bruising
your opponent to death) .. but have reluctantly concluded that the added
flexibility and realism comes at too much too high a price to the roleplay..
combat just takes too long to resolve, and it slows the game too much.

Jim Simons wrote:

>  All the characters are of the Jhereg house, 5
> > "Humans", 3 "Easterners" (which is a bit high..)

Howard Brazee asked:
>
> What are the backgrounds of the elves?   Breeding makes a
> significant  difference.   Give them pasts that matter.

Of course.. each (human and Easterner) have unique and individualized
backgrounds, some of which weave in the current plotlines, some that will be
touched on in future ones.  I won't say any more here.. because they don't
know each others, and some of them are on this mailing list.. but if you
want to know more detail.. or a synopsis of the adventures so far (I keep a
log with about 2 pages of summery per playing session to help keep the
details fresh) feel free to email me.)

>
> Those are the only two types of magic you have?

At the moment.. I started with mostly the AD&D cookie cutter system in order
to get going, with a few adaptations.  I need to put more design time into
customizing the magic system, as I do into the combat system, but it
competes with everything else I "need" to do...
>

>Allen S. Rout wrote:

> >> I'm thinking pre-interregnum settings, so my first
> challenge has been
> >> modelling flashstones so that they aren't totally unbalancing.
>
>Howard Brazee responded:

> Remember the Orb and related sorcery were much less
> developed.   But if
> you do this, give extra credit for players whose characters
> talk as Paarfi
> would have them talk.

Agreed.  I went with post-interregnum myself.  We still have a bit of
Paarfi-style interaction in the roleplaying parts, although trying to
maintain it for very long "real-time" soon taxes everyone..


>Howard Brazee wrote:

> Decide how to handle + weapons.
Agreed.. +weapon are either well crafted (masterwork) or enhanced for
additional sharpness, etc (magical)

>There aren't many Great > Weapons.
Yep.  Unlikely to be seen for quite a while.  How many books did it take
Vlad to get one ??

> Morganti blades seem more common, but don't fight better.
Disagree.. I think for the most part they will be rare, and master crafted
with a minor bonus.. but the players have yet to see one in my campaigns

> Figure how often deaths are unrevivable.
Gamemaster's discretion based on the manner and style of death.  The
enforcer that bought it in combat with Dragonlord was revivable.. the thief
who had a disagreement with a Racoiss (alligator) in the sewers and was
partially eaten was not.  For NPC's -- it depends on what works better for
the overall plot :)

It is a important point for the characters.. because they often have to try
to either keep their opponents alive, or at least revivable.

>I recently started reading Elizabeth Moon
I read the first couple of  her Space Opera series.  I couldn't help
comparing them to Weber's Honor Harrington, which I thought was a
considerably better handling of much the same subject.  (although with
Weber - all the character are either heroes or villains - no shades of grey)
Because of that.. I haven't tried her fantasy.



From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com  Sun Aug 15 12:36:02 2004
From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 15:36:02 EDT
Subject: What does a jhereg nest look like?
Message-ID: <8d.1244f0db.2e511522@aol.com>

--paul w wrote on 8/10/2004:
>
>What does a jhereg nest look like?

--Skychild70 at hotmail.com  wrote on 8/10/2004
>
>We've seen a whole Jhereg city!

Hi,

I think the closest thing we have seen to a Jhereg (House) city is the 
Underside Chapter 5 Five Hundred Years After.  Paarfi refers to it as a district.  

In Book of Taltos, Phoenix page 240, Vlad describes Adrilankha.  "And behind 
them, the city.  Or, rather, the cities, for we each had our own: . . . I saw 
the city that held my special place along Lower Kieron Road, where the bitter 
of violence mixed with the sweet of luxury, and you walked with your eyes 
open, either to grab at a passing opportunity or to prevent yourself from becoming 
one."  Maybe after a long enough time, parts of Adrilankha will be like The 
Underside.

On a jhereg (Rocza and Loiosh) nest, we have not been told what it would look 
like.

We know from the prologue in The Book of Jhereg, Jhereg:

The mother jhereg knows how to find her nest and can retrieve an egg from it. 
 
The mother jhereg seems to care enough about her offspring to consider if 
Vlad is worthy enough.  
The size of an average female. But we do not know if the female and/or the 
male incubate the eggs.  If at all.
Vlad thinks she has a nest of eggs.
The size of an egg.  That the egg cracks not tears. Vlad was "somewhat 
startled by its warmth."  Vlad keeps the egg next to his chest.  Vlad has the egg 
two months before it hatches.
Vlad does not mention any dirt or sand or anything on the egg.  But the 
mother jhereg could have cleaned the egg off if it was buried (turtle?s or alligator
?s eggs).

We know from The book of Athyra, Athyra Page 41 that Rocza is looking for a 
nest.  "But it was so hard to find a nest while traveling all the time."

Find a nest could mean find a place to build, to dig a nest or just find a 
right size hole in a tree or the ground.  Or Rocza could mean just what she 
says.  A jhereg nest could be the nest of another animal or another jhereg.  Rocza 
could be looking for an abandoned nest or one that is occupied with a 
convenient food or soon to be heat source.

Hopefully, we will read a description of a jhereg nest in an upcoming book.  
If there is not any description, hopefully, a jhereg nest will not be on the 
cover because then we will have no idea what it should look like.  


Bye.

Linda G.

From asr at ufl.edu  Sun Aug 15 13:20:15 2004
From: asr at ufl.edu (asr at ufl.edu)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 16:20:15 -0400
Subject: RPG advice? 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 14 Aug 2004 08:57:27 EDT."             <012d01c481fe$41acb390$6801a8c0@gss.genelco.com> 
Message-ID: <200408152020.i7FKKFaA079088@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu>


==> In article <012d01c481fe$41acb390$6801a8c0 at gss.genelco.com>, "Jim Simons" <jsimons at genelco.com> writes:

> Agreed, but a good RPG campaign is a combination of both.  Eventually when
> the players decide to burn down a rival warehouse [...]

I'm at about this point myself.

> As a side note.. the wargamer in me actually prefers the Rolemaster [...]

I'm planning to use the HERO system ('champions') myself; more flexibility,
less realism.  

>> Howard Brazee wrote:
>> Decide how to handle + weapons.
> Agreed.. +weapon are either well crafted (masterwork) or enhanced for
> additional sharpness, etc (magical)

>> There aren't many Great > Weapons.
> Yep.  Unlikely to be seen for quite a while.  How many books did it take
> Vlad to get one ??

I'm figuring there are / was / will be 17.  Gotta be.  I tend to view their
concentration in the House of the Dragon as a symptom of where the Cycle
stands.  Certainly they come into existence; presumedly they can die: No
reason to presume that the same 17 is/have/will exist for all time.

>> Morganti blades seem more common, but don't fight better.
> Disagree.. I think for the most part they will be rare, and master crafted
> with a minor bonus.. but the players have yet to see one in my campaigns

I think most of the Morganti model will be related to social impact of being
known to own / known to carry / known to have used such a filthy thing.  The
actual one-hit-one-kill mechanics would be swamped in the social impact, I
think.


>> I recently started reading Elizabeth Moon
> I read the first couple of  her Space Opera series.  [..]

Read Paks; but skip Gird: I haven't even been able to finish it with lots of
effort.


- Allen S. Rout


From howard at brazee.net  Sun Aug 15 17:46:34 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 18:46:34 -0600
Subject: If you like Robert Jordan
Message-ID: <000701c4832a$7b895780$b07ba8c0@Dad133>

Then Borders recommends

Robin Hobb
David Farlkand
Steven Brust



I saw the above sign at Borders.   It seems like an odd relationship.  I
don't expect to read a 2nd Jordan book, may read a second Hobb book, and am
unlikely to read any Farkland book at all.




From rct9911 at comcast.net  Sun Aug 15 18:57:02 2004
From: rct9911 at comcast.net (Rebecca)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 20:57:02 -0500
Subject: If you like Robert Jordan
References: <000701c4832a$7b895780$b07ba8c0@Dad133>
Message-ID: <000001c48335$7b8b2b40$6601a8c0@BOB>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Howard Brazee" <howard at brazee.net>
To: "Dragaera (E-mail)" <dragaera at dragaera.info>
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2004 7:46 PM
Subject: If you like Robert Jordan


> Then Borders recommends
>
> Robin Hobb
> David Farlkand
> Steven Brust
>
>
>
> I saw the above sign at Borders.   It seems like an odd relationship.  I
> don't expect to read a 2nd Jordan book, may read a second Hobb book, and
am
> unlikely to read any Farkland book at all.
>
>

I don't know about the other, but Robin Hobb is definitely recommended.
Robin Hobb is the best. Everyone should read Robin Hobb. She did a book with
Steven Brust under her other psuedonym, Megan Lindholm. Robin Hobb is
practically god.

Where did Jordan come in there?



From howard at brazee.net  Sun Aug 15 19:16:09 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 20:16:09 -0600
Subject: If you like Robert Jordan
In-Reply-To: <000001c48335$7b8b2b40$6601a8c0@BOB>
Message-ID: <000001c48336$ff061d80$b07ba8c0@Dad133>

Rebecca wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Howard Brazee" <howard at brazee.net>
> To: "Dragaera (E-mail)" <dragaera at dragaera.info>
> Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2004 7:46 PM
> Subject: If you like Robert Jordan
> 
> 
>> Then Borders recommends
>> 
>> Robin Hobb
>> David Farlkand
>> Steven Brust
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I saw the above sign at Borders.   It seems like an odd
>> relationship.  I don't expect to read a 2nd Jordan book, may read a
>> second Hobb book, and am unlikely to read any Farkland book at all.
>> 
>> 
> 
> I don't know about the other, but Robin Hobb is definitely
> recommended. Robin Hobb is the best. Everyone should read Robin Hobb.
> She did a book with Steven Brust under her other psuedonym, Megan
> Lindholm. Robin Hobb is practically god.

My brother thought the same thing.

> Where did Jordan come in there?

Probably by sales.   Whomever sells a lot, gets the "If you like" billing.




From zarkon at illrepute.org  Mon Aug 16 05:27:09 2004
From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:27:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: If you like Robert Jordan
In-Reply-To: <000001c48336$ff061d80$b07ba8c0@Dad133>
References: <000001c48336$ff061d80$b07ba8c0@Dad133>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408160823490.2370@ueno.bdi.com>

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004, Howard Brazee wrote:

@> >> Then Borders recommends
@> >>
@> >> Robin Hobb
@> >> David Farlkand
@> >> Steven Brust
@> >>
@> > Where did Jordan come in there?
@>
@> Probably by sales.   Whomever sells a lot, gets the "If you like" billing.

I imagine it works by the same system as Amazon - people who have bought
books by author A have also frequently bought books by author B. And it
has pretty much the same motivation; boost the sales of one author by
leveraging the name of a more popular one.


(Yes, it is an unjust universe.)


From Gaertk at aol.com  Mon Aug 16 14:44:02 2004
From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:44:02 -0400
Subject: If you like Robert Jordan
Message-ID: <3E400AEB.537F31F9.00048EA6@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/15/2004 8:46:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Howard Brazee" <howard at brazee.net> writes:

>Then Borders recommends
>
>Robin Hobb
>David Farlkand
>Steven Brust

This is a Good Thing.  Jordan sells a lot of books (and there
isn't anything really wrong with that), and reccomending Brust
to his fans should help Brust's sales (and that's Definitely a
Good Thing).

Amazon does something very similar, which led to me trying
Jim Butcher, whose novels are more similar to the Vlad books
than anything else I've seen.

> I saw the above sign at Borders.   It seems like an odd 
> relationship.  I don't expect to read a 2nd Jordan book, may 
> read a second Hobb book, and am unlikely to read any Farkland 
> book at all.

The last time this came up, I mentioned that I first heard about
Brust from the folks at rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan .
Which Hobb book did you read?  Her Farseer and Liveship 
trilogies are noticably different in tone and viewpoint.
Assuming you're mispelling Farland, what I've heard of him is
that he had some good ideas, but poor execution and lame ending.


--KG



From zizban at adelphia.net  Mon Aug 16 14:46:38 2004
From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:46:38 -0400
Subject: If you like Robert Jordan
In-Reply-To: <3E400AEB.537F31F9.00048EA6@aol.com>
References: <3E400AEB.537F31F9.00048EA6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <C06779EE-EFCD-11D8-9334-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net>


On Aug 16, 2004, at 5:44 PM, Gaertk at aol.com wrote:

> The last time this came up, I mentioned that I first heard about
> Brust from the folks at rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan .
> Which Hobb book did you read?  Her Farseer and Liveship
> trilogies are noticably different in tone and viewpoint.
> Assuming you're mispelling Farland, what I've heard of him is
> that he had some good ideas, but poor execution and lame ending.
>

Oh the Anne McCaffrey effect. "When an author takes a good idea and 
totally ruins it"



From howard at brazee.net  Mon Aug 16 15:58:05 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 16:58:05 -0600
Subject: If you like Robert Jordan
In-Reply-To: <3E400AEB.537F31F9.00048EA6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000101c483e4$7e67cad0$b07ba8c0@Dad133>

Gaertk at aol.com wrote:

> The last time this came up, I mentioned that I first heard about
> Brust from the folks at rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan .
> Which Hobb book did you read?  Her Farseer and Liveship
> trilogies are noticably different in tone and viewpoint.


I read a Liveship book after reading this review from a web page of my
brother's:
http://www.science-fiction-review.com/ship%20_of_magic.htm





From wamydia23 at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 16 19:46:59 2004
From: wamydia23 at yahoo.com (wamydia)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:46:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: If you like Robert Jordan
In-Reply-To: <000001c48335$7b8b2b40$6601a8c0@BOB>
Message-ID: <20040817024659.60153.qmail@web20525.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Rebecca <rct9911 at comcast.net> wrote:

> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Howard Brazee" <howard at brazee.net>
> > Then Borders recommends
> >
> > Robin Hobb
> > David Farlkand
> > Steven Brust
> >

> I don't know about the other, but Robin Hobb is
> definitely recommended.
> Robin Hobb is the best. Everyone should read Robin
> Hobb. She did a book with
> Steven Brust under her other psuedonym, Megan
> Lindholm. Robin Hobb is
> practically god.

I really like Robin Hobb also.  David Farland isn't
bad, but I had a little trouble getting into his first
book.  It has a slow start.  As a consequence, I
haven't gotten around to trying the last three or so
he has released in the series.

> 
> Where did Jordan come in there?
> 

Ah. . . that would be the Generic Lumping Together of
Authors Who Write So-Called "High Fanasty."  As in
"since you like Robert Jordan and he writes about a
big fantasy world where people ride horses, you should
like these other authors who also write about big
fantasy worlds where people ride horses."  The authors
they recommend are great (or good at least -- far
better than Jordan, IMHO), but I still think the
lumping together is silly.  It's like saying "if you
like spaghetti, you should also like toothpaste." 
Just because they both come in long, rectangular,
cardboard boxes doesn't mean the same type of thing is
in both packages. 

Amy


	
		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 


From warlord at dragon.com  Tue Aug 17 08:45:16 2004
From: warlord at dragon.com (Warlord)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 11:45:16 -0400
Subject: If you like Robert Jordan
In-Reply-To: <C06779EE-EFCD-11D8-9334-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net>
References: <3E400AEB.537F31F9.00048EA6@aol.com> <3E400AEB.537F31F9.00048EA6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040817114215.02d7f258@pop.dragon.com>

At 17:46 8/16/2004 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote:

>On Aug 16, 2004, at 5:44 PM, Gaertk at aol.com wrote:
>
>>The last time this came up, I mentioned that I first heard about
>>Brust from the folks at rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan .
>>Which Hobb book did you read?  Her Farseer and Liveship
>>trilogies are noticably different in tone and viewpoint.
>>Assuming you're mispelling Farland, what I've heard of him is
>>that he had some good ideas, but poor execution and lame ending.
>
>Oh the Anne McCaffrey effect. "When an author takes a good idea and 
>totally ruins it"
>
>

I must admit to raising eyebrows at the slamming of McCaffrey.  In 
addition, it is my
opinion that some of the most enjoyable reads have been from taking an idea and
completely running away with it.

W

"Don't look back -- the Lemmings are gaining."



From zizban at adelphia.net  Tue Aug 17 08:49:54 2004
From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 11:49:54 -0400
Subject: If you like Robert Jordan
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040817114215.02d7f258@pop.dragon.com>
References: <3E400AEB.537F31F9.00048EA6@aol.com> <3E400AEB.537F31F9.00048EA6@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040817114215.02d7f258@pop.dragon.com>
Message-ID: <15328E6E-F065-11D8-853F-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net>


On Aug 17, 2004, at 11:45 AM, Warlord wrote:

> At 17:46 8/16/2004 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote:
>
>> On Aug 16, 2004, at 5:44 PM, Gaertk at aol.com wrote:
>>
>>> The last time this came up, I mentioned that I first heard about
>>> Brust from the folks at rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan .
>>> Which Hobb book did you read?  Her Farseer and Liveship
>>> trilogies are noticably different in tone and viewpoint.
>>> Assuming you're mispelling Farland, what I've heard of him is
>>> that he had some good ideas, but poor execution and lame ending.
>>
>> Oh the Anne McCaffrey effect. "When an author takes a good idea and 
>> totally ruins it"
>>
>>
>
> I must admit to raising eyebrows at the slamming of McCaffrey.  In 
> addition, it is my
> opinion that some of the most enjoyable reads have been from taking an 
> idea and
> completely running away with it.
>
> W

Well, we may have to agree to disagree on this. Dragonriders of Pern 
(The original novel) could have been such a great book but she totally 
missed out on a chance to really explore the ideas she presented.



From howard at brazee.net  Tue Aug 17 09:05:12 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:05:12 -0600
Subject: If you like Robert Jordan
In-Reply-To: <15328E6E-F065-11D8-853F-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net>
References: <3E400AEB.537F31F9.00048EA6@aol.com> <3E400AEB.537F31F9.00048EA6@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040817114215.02d7f258@pop.dragon.com> <15328E6E-F065-11D8-853F-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net>
Message-ID: <opscvwaytvmng2fm@emerald.he.net>

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 11:49:54 -0400, Chris Turkel <zizban at adelphia.net>  
wrote:


> Well, we may have to agree to disagree on this. Dragonriders of Pern  
> (The original novel) could have been such a great book but she totally  
> missed out on a chance to really explore the ideas she presented.


But _The Ship Who Sang_ worked quite nicely for me.



-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/


From zizban at adelphia.net  Tue Aug 17 09:08:59 2004
From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 12:08:59 -0400
Subject: If you like Robert Jordan
In-Reply-To: <opscvwaytvmng2fm@emerald.he.net>
References: <3E400AEB.537F31F9.00048EA6@aol.com> <3E400AEB.537F31F9.00048EA6@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040817114215.02d7f258@pop.dragon.com> <15328E6E-F065-11D8-853F-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net> <opscvwaytvmng2fm@emerald.he.net>
Message-ID: <BF6C3898-F067-11D8-853F-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net>


On Aug 17, 2004, at 12:05 PM, Howard Brazee wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 11:49:54 -0400, Chris Turkel <zizban at adelphia.net> 
> wrote:
>
>
>> Well, we may have to agree to disagree on this. Dragonriders of Pern 
>> (The original novel) could have been such a great book but she 
>> totally missed out on a chance to really explore the ideas she 
>> presented.
>
>
> But _The Ship Who Sang_ worked quite nicely for me.
>

I liked Dinosaur Planet and its one sequel. A little outdated now, 
knowing what we know about dinosaurs but good escapist read. Too bad 
she never did any more books on that world.



From dgf at dd-b.net  Tue Aug 17 15:17:03 2004
From: dgf at dd-b.net (dgf at dd-b.net)
Date: 17 Aug 2004 22:17:03 -0000
Subject: Dragaera subscriber list
Message-ID: <20040817221703.2989.qmail@dd-b.net>

abailey (at) micromuse.com (email) Andrew Bailey <abailey (at) micromuse.com> 
abcmm (at) att.net (email) abcmm (at) att.net 
acwest-dragaera (at) craigwest.net (email) "A. Craig West" <acwest-dragaera (at) craigwest.net> 
adia (at) hellug.gr (email) =?iso-8859-7?B?wevd7uHt5PHv8iDE6eHs4e303+Tn8g==?= <adia (at) hellug.gr> 
adia (at) hellug.gr (email) Alexandros Diamantidis <adia (at) hellug.gr> 
adina (at) panix.com (email)
aejoubert (at) hotmail.com (email) "Andrew Joubert" <aejoubert (at) hotmail.com> 
agrajag (at) dragaera.net (email) Jag <agrajag (at) dragaera.net> 
agrelic (at) gmail.com (email) Sean Dilda <agrelic (at) gmail.com> 
aheyman (at) rcn.com (email) "Adam Heyman" <aheyman (at) rcn.com> 
akomins (at) midway.uchicago.edu (email) Arin Komins <akomins (at) midway.uchicago.edu> 
alexx (at) panix.com (email) "Alexander Kay" <alexx (at) panix.com> 
amadandedallas (at) yahoo.com (email) James D'Amadan <amadandedallas (at) yahoo.com> 
amitskaw (at) hotmail.com (email) "James Somebody" <amitskaw (at) hotmail.com> 
andrew.durston (at) smiths-aerospace.com (email) "Durston, Andrew (AGRE)" <andrew.durston (at) smiths-aerospace.com> 
AndrewBarton (at) compuserve.com (digest)
annoying_dude (at) yahoo.com (digest) Matt Smit <annoying_dude (at) yahoo.com> 
anreed (at) wm.edu (email) anreed (at) wm.edu 
asher1978 (at) hotmail.com (email) "asher 1978" <asher1978 (at) hotmail.com> 
asr (at) spnode43.nerdc.ufl.edu (email) asr (at) ufl.edu 
attjen (at) gwu.edu (digest) Matt Jennings <attjen (at) gwu.edu> 
azarule (at) hotmail.com (email) "David Gunderson" <azarule (at) hotmail.com> 
badgod (at) sonic.net (digest)
ballistica (at) cox.net (email) "Donna" <ballistica (at) cox.net> 
baron_greystone (at) hotmail.com (digest) "Baron Greystone" <baron_greystone (at) hotmail.com> 
Bato001 (at) aol.com (email)
bearnw (at) ix.netcom.com (digest)
bertowud (at) cox.net (email) "Robert Wood" <bertowud (at) cox.net> 
bio_phy (at) hotmail.com (email)
blackbird0 (at) yahoo.com (email) Jeffrey Kiok <blackbird0 (at) yahoo.com> 
bonham15 (at) cox.net (email) "bonham15" <bonham15 (at) cox.net> 
books (at) bofh.com (email) books (at) bofh.com 
bph7 (at) cornell.edu (email) Ben Hiles <bph7 (at) cornell.edu> 
brian.vanskyock (at) zimmer.com (email) "Brian Vanskyock" <brian.vanskyock (at) zimmer.com> 
briandmichelle (at) yahoo.com (email) Brian and Michelle Baskett <briandmichelle (at) yahoo.com>
bryann (at) bryann.net (email) "Bryan Newell" <bryann (at) bryann.net> 
calianng_graves (at) yahoo.com (email) Caliann the Elf <calianng_graves (at) yahoo.com> 
cantatrix (at) hotmail.com (email) "Becky Krause" <cantatrix (at) hotmail.com> 
carl (at) odeon.net (email) "Carl Chada" <carl (at) odeon.net> 
carla.hunt.b (at) oncogene.com (email) "Carla Hunt" <carla.hunt.b (at) oncogene.com> 
carpovita (at) earthlink.net (email) "Rion Bergquist" <carpovita (at) earthlink.net> 
casey (at) the-bat.net (email) <casey (at) the-bat.net> 
chamama (at) cheerful.com (email) "sara chamama" <chamama (at) cheerful.com> 
charles_sumner (at) harvard.edu (email) charles_sumner (at) harvard.edu 
chris.mclaren (at) ieee.org (email) "Chris McLaren" <chris.mclaren (at) ieee.org> 
Chrisf.Olson (at) sun.com (email) Chris Olson - SunPS <Chrisf.Olson (at) Sun.COM>
chrislee (at) neo.rr.com (email) "chris cunningham" <chrislee (at) neo.rr.com> 
Christoph.Safferling (at) uni-konstanz.de (email)
Christopher_M_Kane (at) brown.edu (email)
cnorehad (at) oz.net (email) "Chris Norehad" <cnorehad (at) oz.net> 
corsair (at) concentric.net (email) "Kelly Rhodes" <corsair (at) concentric.net> 
corsairx (at) iinet.net.au (email) Andrew <corsairx (at) iinet.net.au> 
corwin (at) mpls.cx (email) (Corwin Brust) 
crowkart (at) hotmail.com (email) "A Crow" <crowkart (at) hotmail.com> 
dalvenjah (at) dal.net (email) Dalvenjah FoxFire <dalvenjah (at) DAL.NET> 
dan-tain_ishanti (at) attbi.com (email) "Brad Crawford" <dan-tain_ishanti (at) attbi.com> 
dar (at) horusinc.com (email) "David Rodemaker" <dar (at) horusinc.com> 
dave-lists-dragaera (at) weller-fahy.com (email) "David J. Weller-Fahy" <dave-lists-dragaera (at) weller-fahy.com> 
dave (at) waveridersystems.com (email) "Dave Godwin" <dave (at) waveridersystems.com> 
david (at) mail.crlf.net (email) David Maxwell <david (at) crlf.net> 
davids (at) kithrup.com (email) David Silberstein <davids (at) kithrup.com> 
dd-b (at) dd-b.net (digest) (David Dyer-Bennet) 
dd-b (at) dd-b.net (email) (David Dyer-Bennet) 
den (at) monger.net (email)
dgf (at) dd-b.net (post)
dinlicious (at) gmail.com (email) dinlicious <dinlicious (at) gmail.com> 
don (at) easterlys.com (email) "Don Easterly" <don (at) easterlys.com> 
dr.elmo (at) whiterose.org (email) "Dr. Elmo" <dr.elmo (at) whiterose.org> 
dragaera-kithrup (at) kithrup.com (email)
dragaera (at) juima.org (email) Sander <dragaera (at) juima.org> 
dusty (at) sayersnet.com (email) J A Dusty Sayers <dusty (at) sayersnet.com>
d_levitz (at) msn.com (email) "Daniel Levitz" <D_Levitz (at) msn.com> 
ed (at) edmail.info (email) Ed Lee <ed (at) edmail.info> 
ehahn (at) isochronism.com (email) Edward Hahn <ehahn (at) isochronism.com> 
ejpeterson (at) attbi.com (email)
erik (at) debill.org (email) erik (at) debill.org 
eshivak (at) netzero.net (email) "Eric Shivak" <eshivak (at) netzero.net> 
everbard (at) ix.netcom.com (email) "Michael M Jones" <everbard (at) ix.netcom.com> 
faakinridiculous (at) hotmail.com (email) "rogue squadron" <faakinridiculous (at) hotmail.com> 
feaelin (at) kemenel.org (email) "Davis, Iain E." <feaelin (at) kemenel.org> 
feetalsjeez (at) yahoo.com (email) Tim Owen <feetalsjeez (at) yahoo.com> 
fides (at) kludgeco.com (email) Faith Lawrence <fides (at) kludgeco.com> 
fitzrose (at) msn.com (email) "Rosemary Fitzsimons" <fitzrose (at) msn.com> 
flgrendel (at) yahoo.com (email) John Almasi <flgrendel (at) yahoo.com> 
foodgod (at) pobox.com (email) Teddywolf <foodgod (at) pobox.com> 
foolserrand1 (at) hotmail.com (email)
frank (at) exit.com (email) Frank Mayhar <frank (at) exit.com> 
FRIEDA2133 (at) aol.com (email)
furryjawa (at) yahoo.com (email) David Lish <furryjawa (at) yahoo.com> 
gaertk (at) aol.com (email) Gaertk (at) aol.com 
gaku169 (at) hotmail.com (digest) "Denis Berthelsen" <gaku169 (at) hotmail.com> 
gbrandt (at) tampabayfcu.org (email) Grady Brandt <gbrandt (at) tampabayfcu.org> 
gcanyon (at) inspiredlogic.com (email) Geoff Canyon <gcanyon (at) inspiredlogic.com> 
genji_77 (at) hotmail.com (email) "Mike Smith" <genji_77 (at) hotmail.com> 
GibelMaria (at) aol.com (email) GibelMaria (at) aol.com 
gilligan487 (at) hotmail.com (email) "Erik Deup" <gilligan487 (at) hotmail.com> 
ginni.berger (at) juno.com (email) ginnilee p berger <ginni.berger (at) juno.com> 
gisho (at) puddleofgoo.com (email) "gisho" <gisho (at) puddleofgoo.com> 
glas (at) larp.com (email) Glas <glas (at) larp.com> 
Glenn.Gardner (at) kla-tencor.com (email)
gm_drmallio (at) hotmail.com (email) "Douglass Mallio" <gm_drmallio (at) hotmail.com> 
gnipp (at) hotmail.com (email) "Matthew Slowiak" <gnipp (at) hotmail.com> 
god_of_gnomes (at) hotmail.com (email) "K Horzmann" <god_of_gnomes (at) hotmail.com> 
gomi (at) pollywog.com (post)
gomi (at) speakeasy.net (email) Gomi no Sensei <gomi (at) speakeasy.net> 
go_and (at) fuq.it (email)
graitech (at) cogeco.ca (email) graitech (at) cogeco.ca 
greatcthulhu1 (at) yahoo.com (email) Oscar Rios <greatcthulhu1 (at) yahoo.com> 
greyw01f (at) hotmail.com (email) "Jon Carey" <greyw01f (at) hotmail.com> 
grzm (at) grzm.pp.se (digest) Gunnar Blomberg <grzm (at) grzm.pp.se> 
haerandir (at) hotmail.com (email) "Jesse Thomas" <haerandir (at) hotmail.com> 
hans117 (at) yahoo.com (email) Hans Schweitzer <hans117 (at) yahoo.com> 
harpere (at) gmail.com (email) Elizabeth Harper <harpere (at) gmail.com> 
hats5 (at) cisbec.net (email) "The Lehman's" <hats5 (at) cisbec.net> 
Hereward (at) rogers.com (email) "Gary Russell" <Hereward (at) rogers.com> 
hhertzof (at) panix.com (email) Hilary Hertzoff <hhertzof (at) panix.com> 
holden (at) oddjob.uchicago.edu (digest) Bradford Holden <holden (at) oddjob.uchicago.edu> 
hologram (at) algonet.se (email) Nicklas Andersson <hologram (at) algonet.se> 
holyconelia (at) hotmail.com (email) "william wheeler" <holyconelia (at) hotmail.com> 
howard.brazee (at) cusys.edu (post)
howard (at) brazee.net (email) "Howard Brazee" <howard (at) brazee.net> 
hyrum (at) otherworlds.cx (email) "R. Hyrum Savage" <hyrum (at) otherworlds.cx> 
iambluehearmeroar (at) yahoo.com (email) Blue <iambluehearmeroar (at) yahoo.com> 
iceman32708 (at) yahoo.com (email) MARTIN FRIEDMAN <iceman32708 (at) yahoo.com> 
ifurita (at) el-hazard.net (email) Ravi Duvvuri <ifurita (at) el-hazard.net> 
igalbraith (at) ozonline.com.au (email) igalbraith (at) ozonline.com.au (Ian Galbraith) 
ijamie (at) sympatico.ca (email) "Ian sympatico" <ijamie (at) sympatico.ca> 
ike (at) manor.org (email) Ike Porter <ike (at) manor.org> 
ikep (at) umbc.edu (email) Ike Porter <ikep (at) umbc.edu> 
incitor (at) whack.org (email) incitor <incitor (at) whack.org> 
j.clendening (at) verizon.net (email) "Verizon" <j.clendening (at) verizon.net> 
J.Millen-99 (at) student.lboro.ac.uk (email) "Jim Millen" <J.Millen-99 (at) student.lboro.ac.uk> 
jackland (at) mail.ru (email) JC <jackland (at) mail.ru> 
jajohns (at) temporalspace.com (email) "Jamie A. Johns" <jajohns (at) temporalspace.com> 
jalaubacker (at) mindspring.com (email) "Jim Laubacker" <jalaubacker (at) mindspring.com> 
jalipaz (at) stanford.edu (email) Julie Alipaz <jalipaz (at) stanford.edu> 
jamesandmary.burbidge (at) sympatico.ca (email) James and Mary Burbidge <jamesandmary.burbidge (at) sympatico.ca>
jbdelong (at) uclink.berkeley.edu (email) Brad DeLong <delong (at) econ.Berkeley.EDU> 
jdbone (at) hotmail.com (email) "Jimmie Bone" <jdbone (at) hotmail.com> 
jeanninenorris (at) yahoo.com (email) Jeannine Norris <jeanninenorris (at) yahoo.com> 
jedijane (at) ev1.net (email) "M. Goepp" <jedijane (at) ev1.net> 
jennalyn (at) intercom.net (email) Jennalyn <jennalyn (at) intercom.net> 
jerry_friedman (at) yahoo.com (email) Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman (at) yahoo.com> 
jetdragon (at) comcast.net (email) Jessica <jetdragon (at) comcast.net> 
jhereg69 (at) earthlink.net (email) Jose Marquez<jhereg69 (at) earthlink.net> 
jimkatz (at) ix.netcom.com (email) Jim Katz <jimkatz (at) ix.netcom.com> 
jjnichol (at) mit.edu (email) Joy Jennifer Nicholson <jjnichol (at) MIT.EDU> 
jlblists (at) eljen.net (email) "Jennifer Barber" <jlblists (at) eljen.net> 
jmalkoff (at) verizon.net (email) "Jason Malkoff" <jmalkoff (at) verizon.net> 
jocelyncassidy (at) hotmail.com (email) "Jocelyn Cassidy" <jocelyncassidy (at) hotmail.com> 
joecrow (at) access4less.net (email) Joe Crow <joecrow (at) access4less.net> 
joelynch (at) sbcglobal.net (digest)
John.Tennyson (at) mckesson.com (email)
Joseph.Bono (at) yale.edu (email)
jot (at) chud.net (post)
jsimons (at) genelco.com (email) "Jim Simons" <jsimons (at) genelco.com> 
jtoth (at) megrez.org (email) Jim Toth <jtoth (at) megrez.org> 
jtrager (at) keyway.net (email) "Trager" <jtrager (at) keyway.net> 
juliette_torres (at) yahoo.com (digest) Juliette Torres <juliette_torres (at) yahoo.com> 
kate.nepveu (at) gmail.com (email) Kate Nepveu <kate.nepveu (at) gmail.com> 
kate (at) mail.browser.net (email) Kate Jones <kate (at) mail.browser.net> 
kcr (at) midsouth.rr.com (email) "Kevin Raybould" <kcr (at) midsouth.rr.com> 
khaavren (at) hotmail.com (email) "Khaavren Castlerock" <khaavren (at) hotmail.com> 
kknolte (at) ecity.net (email) K Kuhn <kknolte (at) ecity.net> 
kkoester (at) email.ers.usda.gov (email) Ken Koester <kkoester (at) email.ers.usda.gov> 
kmcd (at) uclink.berkeley.edu (email) Kelley McDonald <kmcd (at) uclink.berkeley.edu> 
KnightOfInsanos (at) aol.com (email)
knots4kcs (at) yahoo.com (email) Kenneth Stone <knots4kcs (at) yahoo.com> 
kpadgett1 (at) cox.net (email) "Ken Padgett" <kpadgett1 (at) cox.net> 
KReaves789 (at) aol.com (email) KReaves789 (at) aol.com 
kublakhan73 (at) hotmail.com (email) "Jeremy Tassoff" <kublakhan73 (at) hotmail.com> 
kunimon (at) ya.com (email) "=?iso-8859-1?B?UmFt824gUGXxYQ==?=" <kunimon (at) ya.com> 
kyonne (at) shaw.ca (digest) Joy Mainer <kyonne (at) shaw.ca> 
kyonne (at) shaw.ca (digest) kyonne <kyonne (at) shaw.ca> 
kyonne (at) shaw.ca (email) Joy Mainer <kyonne (at) shaw.ca> 
kyonne (at) shaw.ca (email) kyonne <kyonne (at) shaw.ca> 
lady_gh0stw0lf (at) yahoo.com (digest)
lady_mage16 (at) yahoo.com (email)
lairdb (at) email.com (email) "L. Broadfield" <lairdb (at) email.com> 
Lathia (at) nwlink.com (email) "Lathia" <Lathia (at) nwlink.com> 
laurao (at) ix.netcom.com (digest) "Laura Osgood" <laurao (at) ix.netcom.com> 
lazarus33pjf (at) cox.net (email) lazarus <lazarus33pjf (at) cox.net> 
linden (at) uchicago.edu (email) AnnaLinden Weller <linden (at) uchicago.edu> 
lister (at) insaneninjahero.com (email) Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert <lister (at) insaneninjahero.com> 
ljenab (at) sunflower.com (email) "Lawrence Jenab" <ljenab (at) sunflower.com> 
lmbrassard (at) yahoo.com (email) Laurie Brassard <lmbrassard (at) yahoo.com> 
log0n5150 (at) hotmail.com (email) "Jeff Gibbons" <Log0n5150 (at) hotmail.com> 
loki (at) twwol.dyndns.org (digest) Loki <loki (at) twwol.dyndns.org> 
lqmiller (at) ev1.net (email) Louann Miller <lqmiller (at) ev1.net> 
lydy (at) demesne.com (email) Lydia Nickerson <lydy (at) demesne.com> 
Lys (at) charter.net (email) "Lys Swift" <Lys (at) charter.net> 
MaidensPowrSlave (at) aol.com (email) MaidensPowrSlave (at) aol.com 
mak (at) akamai.com (email) Marty Kagan <mak (at) akamai.com> 
malte.schuru (at) gmx.net (email) Malte Schulz-Ruhtenberg <malte.schuru (at) gmx.net> 
mam (at) theworld.com (email) Mark A Mandel <mam (at) theworld.com> 
mamandel (at) unagi.cis.upenn.edu (post)
mark_englehart (at) cox.net (email)
marni (at) cfl.rr.com (digest) "marni on Roadrunner" <marni (at) cfl.rr.com> 
marty (at) kaganite.com (email) Marty Kagan <marty (at) kaganite.com> 
matthew (at) infodancer.org (email) Matthew Hunter <matthew (at) infodancer.org> 
mattonim (at) engineering.ucsb.edu (email) Michael Mattoni <mattonim (at) engineering.ucsb.edu> 
mauriziopaoluzi (at) inwind.it (email) Maurizio Paoluzi <mauriziopaoluzi (at) inwind.it> 
melalvai (at) kemenel.org (email) "Rachel L. Ruhlen" <melalvai (at) kemenel.org> 
melalvai (at) kemenel.org (email) Melalvai <melalvai (at) kemenel.org> 
mendo666 (at) hotmail.com (email) "Ian Edwards" <mendo666 (at) hotmail.com> 
mflanigan (at) carolina.rr.com (email) Mike Flanigan <Thomarus (at) carolina.rr.com> 
mia_mcdavid (at) comcast.net (email)
michaelangelo (at) tripp-russo.com (email)
michi (at) mercury.co.il (email) Michi Kossowsky <michi (at) mercury.co.il> 
mike.melton (at) cox.net (email) "Mike Melton" <mike.melton (at) cox.net> 
mike (at) plokta.com (email)
Mirsathia (at) comcast.net (email)
misao (at) shaw.ca (email) Misao <misao (at) shaw.ca> 
Mistykalia (at) aol.com (digest) Mistykalia (at) aol.com 
mixtli (at) ix.netcom.com (email) "Ian Warner" <mixtli (at) ix.netcom.com> 
mkbister (at) charter.net (email) "Mary Bister" <mkbister (at) charter.net> 
mklahn (at) mac.com (email) Matthew Klahn <mklahn (at) mac.com> 
mneme (at) hagbard.io.com (post)
mneme (at) io.com (email) Joshua Kronengold <mneme (at) io.com> 
moghan_david (at) yahoo.com (email) Robert Opramolla <moghan_david (at) yahoo.com> 
moodygrrl (at) earthlink.net (email) "Lori Reeder" <moodygrrl (at) earthlink.net> 
moonblossom (at) dodgenet.com (email) "Dale Rippke" <moonblossom (at) dodgenet.com> 
moonhunt_ (at) hotmail.com (email) "Guess Who" <moonhunt_ (at) hotmail.com> 
mr1 (at) rcosta.com (email) "Michele Riccio" <mr1 (at) rcosta.com> 
mrichard (at) efn.org (email) Richard <mrichard (at) efn.org> 
ms_kate (at) io.com (email)
mtiller (at) ntlworld.com (email) "Mark Tiller" <mtiller (at) ntlworld.com> 
mvillar2424 (at) earthlink.net (email) "Marcos Villaroman" <mvillar2424 (at) earthlink.net> 
mwwings (at) owt.com (email) Geoff Paulson <mwwings (at) owt.com> 
nadilday (at) yahoo.com (email) Nathan Dilday <nadilday (at) yahoo.com> 
naraku (at) comcast.net (email)
NarnRebel (at) aol.com (digest)
nathan (at) player.org (email) "Nathan P. Bardsley" <nathan (at) player.org> 
noam.izenberg (at) jhuapl.edu (email) "Izenberg, Noam" <Noam.Izenberg (at) jhuapl.edu> 
noan4 (at) hotmail.com (email) "Jeff Drake" <noan4 (at) hotmail.com> 
nope (at) galon.org.il (email) Nope <nope (at) galon.org.il> 
nstacy (at) cinci.rr.com (email) "Noah Stacy" <nstacy (at) cinci.rr.com> 
nthuleen (at) students.wisc.edu (email) Nancy Thuleen <nthuleen (at) students.wisc.edu> 
ojen_ishii (at) yahoo.com (email) jennifer rowley <ojen_ishii (at) yahoo.com> 
omaha (at) mpls.cx (email) Felix Strates <omaha (at) mpls.cx> 
Orchidkngt (at) aol.com (digest) Orchidkngt (at) aol.com 
otaking (at) cwru.edu (email) James Vogel <otaking (at) cwru.edu> 
paul (at) finalchallenge.net (email) "Paul Hancock" <paul (at) finalchallenge.net> 
pereillo (at) optonline.net (email)
peter (at) maranci.net (email) "Peter Maranci" <peter (at) maranci.net> 
pgranzeau (at) cox.net (email) "Peter H. Granzeau" <pgranzeau (at) cox.net> 
philiph (at) slac.stanford.edu (email) Philip Hart <philiph (at) SLAC.Stanford.EDU> 
phoenix (at) ugcs.caltech.edu (email) Damien Sullivan <phoenix (at) ugcs.caltech.edu> 
Phoenixrave (at) sc.rr.com (digest) "Robert Pierce" <Phoenixrave (at) sc.rr.com> 
phoenixwolf27 (at) yahoo.com (email) "Michael Wolf \(XBOX\)" <mwolf (at) microsoft.com> 
pistole (at) alumni.utexas.net (email) "Richard H. Pistole" <pistole (at) alumni.utexas.net> 
pkeck (at) storm.he.net (email) pkeck <pkeck (at) paulkeck.com> 
platedlizard (at) earthlink.net (email) "Gloria Carr" <platedlizard (at) earthlink.net> 
polstein (at) wsvn.com (email) "Olstein, Phillip" <polstein (at) wsvn.com> 
poptest (at) ghytred.com (email) "Simon Smith" <poptest (at) ghytred.com> 
porthos (at) calweb.com (email) John Hutton <porthos (at) calweb.com> 
PQuigleyII (at) aol.com (email) PQuigleyII (at) aol.com 
Profesor_Bacterio (at) ono.com (email) "FAC" <Profesor_Bacterio (at) ono.com> 
qag1964 (at) excite.com (email) "Quentin" <qag1964 (at) excite.com> 
Raellew (at) aol.com (email)
rakehell (at) usa.net (email) G Wilhelm <rakehell (at) usa.net> 
ray (at) madrabbit.org (email) ray (at) madrabbit.org (Ray Lee) 
rcarson (at) rcarson.com (digest) "Reid Carson" <rcarson (at) rcarson.com> 
rct9911 (at) comcast.net (email) "Rebecca" <rct9911 (at) comcast.net> 
reader (at) estebandito.info (email) Stephan Leicht <reader (at) estebandito.info> 
redmeerkat (at) earthlink.net (email) Sean Hayden <redmeerkat (at) earthlink.net> 
ReVibe68 (at) aol.com (email)
rfzabick (at) punkgrok.org (digest) Roman Zabicki <rfzabick (at) punkgrok.org> 
RHRahl1 (at) aol.com (email) RHRahl1 (at) aol.com 
rickc (at) silcom.com (email) "Richard Cunningham" <rickc (at) silcom.com> 
righel (at) email.msn.com (post)
righel (at) msn.com (email) "Rosemary Ighel" <righel (at) msn.com> 
rislyn23 (at) hotmail.com (email) "Rislyn Feruch" <rislyn23 (at) hotmail.com> 
rmckenzi (at) dti.net (digest) Brookes McKenzie <rmckenzi (at) dti.net> 
rone (at) ennui.org (email) rone (at) ennui.org (figmentality) 
ross1 (at) rochester.rr.com (email) Ross Stuckless Jr <ross1 (at) rochester.rr.com> 
rst_98 (at) hotmail.com (email) "RST ------" <rst_98 (at) hotmail.com> 
ryan (at) wonko.com (email) Ryan Grove <ryan (at) wonko.com> 
s.schwenk (at) wtal.de (email) "Sebastian Schwenk" <s.schwenk (at) wtal.de> 
s1burns (at) ucsd.edu (email) "Shawn" <s1burns (at) ucsd.edu> 
saint_erythros (at) lameassbitch.com (email) "M J" <saint_erythros (at) lameassbitch.com> 
Sams0n (at) aol.com (email)
Scott.Burrington (at) getronics.com (email)
scott (at) cjhunter.com (email) "Scott Schultz" <scott (at) cjhunter.com> 
scottfweintraub (at) gmail.com (digest)
scs (at) ans.net (post)
scs (at) di.org (email)
scs (at) lokkur.dexter.mi.us (post)
scs (at) uu.net (post)
seanstarratt1 (at) msn.com (email) "Sean Starratt" <seanstarratt1 (at) msn.com> 
seitherin (at) houston.rr.com (email) "Seitherin" <seitherin (at) houston.rr.com> 
severian (at) webone.com.au (email) Jonathan Pelling <severian (at) webone.com.au> 
shad (at) muegge.org (email) "Shad Muegge" <shad (at) muegge.org> 
shafedog205555-brustfan (at) yahoo.com (email) S SHafer <shafedog205555-brustfan (at) yahoo.com> 
shannon3d (at) yahoo.com (email) Shannon Wimberly <shannon3d (at) yahoo.com> 
simbelmyne (at) softhome.net (email) Emily Frawley <simbelmyne (at) softhome.net> 
singram (at) videotron.ca (email) "Katherine Britt" <kbritt (at) videotron.ca> 
sirchuck (at) macomb.com (email) John Mietus <sirchuck (at) macomb.com> 
sjwerbin (at) epix.net (digest)
skychild70 (at) hotmail.com (email) "paul w" <skychild70 (at) hotmail.com> 
skzb (at) dreamcafe.com (email) (Steven Brust) 
slhalter (at) slhalter.com (email) Steven Halter <slhalter (at) slhalter.com> 
slothman (at) amurgsval.org (email) Max Rible <slothman (at) amurgsval.org> 
smed51 (at) yahoo.com (digest) Smed <smed51 (at) yahoo.com> 
smoosmang (at) t-online.de (email) smoosmang (at) t-online.de (Sven Moosmang) 
Spamme13 (at) aol.com (digest) Spamme13 (at) aol.com 
spiderman92 (at) comcast.net (email)
sraun (at) fireopal.org (email) Scott Raun <sraun (at) fireopal.org> 
Starshadw (at) aol.com (email)
stepheninhouston (at) ireland.com (digest) "stephen garvey" <stepheninhouston (at) ireland.com> 
steve.burnap (at) gmail.com (email) Steve Burnap <steve.burnap (at) gmail.com> 
stikjok (at) hotmail.com (email) "Dave Cooper" <stikjok (at) hotmail.com> 
stlatos (at) yahoo.com (email) Sean Whalen <stlatos (at) yahoo.com> 
tackygoldring (at) netscape.net (email) tacky <tackygoldring (at) netscape.net> 
taltos07 (at) earthlink.net (email) "Curtis Humes" <taltos07 (at) earthlink.net> 
tatters (at) newsguy.com (email) Derek Tattersall <tatters (at) newsguy.com> 
terrick (at) cox.net (email) "ryan" <terrick (at) cox.net> 
teza (at) rupture.net (email) Teza <teza (at) rupture.net> 
tfoster118 (at) comcast.net (email) Travis Foster <tfoster118 (at) comcast.net> 
THA2112 (at) aol.com (email) THA2112 (at) aol.com 
theancient (at) mindspring.com (email) "Tom Miller" <theancient (at) mindspring.com> 
thefr0g (at) hotmail.com (email) "The Fr0g" <thefr0g (at) hotmail.com> 
thepsychosmurf (at) hotmail.com (email) "Chris Sullins" <thepsychosmurf (at) hotmail.com> 
thesteve19 (at) hotmail.com (email) "Steve R." <thesteve19 (at) hotmail.com> 
tiassa (at) xmission.com (email) Megan Schreiber <tiassa (at) xmission.com> 
TimN (at) rcn.com (email)
timothypaxtonowen (at) hotmail.com (email) "Timothy Owen" <timothypaxtonowen (at) hotmail.com> 
tky1 (at) rcn.com (email) tky1 (at) rcn.com (Thomas Yan) 
tlinkenback (at) cox.net (digest) "Tom Linkenback" <tlinkenback (at) cox.net> 
tmer (at) eudoramail.com (email) "Barbara Baj" <tmer (at) eudoramail.com> 
toubib21 (at) yahoo.com (email) Toubib <toubib21 (at) yahoo.com> 
trevor (at) fiatal.net (email) Trevor Fiatal <trevor (at) seven.com> 
trevorsensei (at) yahoo.com (email) trevor laughlin <trevorsensei (at) yahoo.com> 
tsarren (at) alyra.org (email) Kat <tsarren (at) alyra.org> 
tyday (at) phantomemail.com (email) <tyday (at) phantomemail.com> 
T_Johnson (at) speakeasy.net (email)
umbraenoctis (at) hotmail.com (email) "James Griffin" <umbraenoctis (at) hotmail.com> 
unhatched (at) hotmail.com (email) "Denis Richard" <unhatched (at) hotmail.com> 
usagigoya (at) hotmail.com (email) "Steve Hubbell" <usagigoya (at) hotmail.com> 
vaklam (at) comcast.net (email) Brian Cooksey <vaklam (at) comcast.net> 
valerie (at) drizzle.com (email) <valerie (at) drizzle.com> 
veate (at) yahoo.com (digest) "Ms. Helle" <veate (at) yahoo.com> 
vidroth (at) hotmail.com (digest) "Chris Bisanar" <vidroth (at) hotmail.com> 
vtaltos (at) earthlink.net (email) "Malcolm" <vtaltos (at) earthlink.net> 
walshm (at) ipfw.edu (email) "Matthew Walsh" <walshm (at) ipfw.edu> 
wamydia23 (at) yahoo.com (email) wamydia <wamydia23 (at) yahoo.com> 
warbi (at) warbi.net (email) "warbi" <warbi (at) warbi.net> 
warlord (at) dragon.com (email) "Warlord" <warlord (at) dragon.com> 
warlord (at) dragon.com (email) Alan <alan (at) dragon.com> 
wayne.wagenaar (at) rogers.com (email) Wayne Wagenaar <wayne.wagenaar (at) rogers.com> 
willm (at) emailme.com.au (email) "Will Marshall" <will (at) emailme.com.au> 
wmo+dragaera (at) rebma.pro-ns.net (email) "Bill O'Hanlon" <wmo (at) rebma.pro-ns.net> 
xmasberry (at) mail.com (email) "holly christmas" <xmasberry (at) mail.com> 
yaga (at) berkano.pair.com (email) yaga (at) berkano.pair.com 
yaga (at) yaga-ysgs.com (email) Pb Sanderson <yaga (at) yaga-ysgs.com> 
yhcrana13 (at) hotmail.com (email) "A. Nonymous" <yhcrana13 (at) hotmail.com> 
yukio_toko (at) yahoo.com (email) yukiotoko imp-thing <yukio_toko (at) yahoo.com> 
zaphod (at) charter.net (email) "Greg Schwartz" <zaphod (at) charter.net> 
zardoz (at) weirdness.com (email) Robert Sallade <zardoz (at) weirdness.com> 
zarkon (at) illrepute.org (email) John Klein <zarkon (at) illrepute.org> 
zizban (at) adelphia.net (email) Chris Turkel <zizban (at) adelphia.net> 


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Tue Aug 17 15:45:41 2004
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 17:45:41 -0500
Subject: If you like Robert Jordan
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040817114215.02d7f258@pop.dragon.com> (warlord@dragon.com's
 message of "Tue, 17 Aug 2004 11:45:16 -0400")
References: <3E400AEB.537F31F9.00048EA6@aol.com>
	<3E400AEB.537F31F9.00048EA6@aol.com>
	<5.1.0.14.2.20040817114215.02d7f258@pop.dragon.com>
Message-ID: <m2y8kdxu22.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>

Warlord <warlord at dragon.com> writes:

> At 17:46 8/16/2004 -0400, Chris Turkel wrote:
>
>>On Aug 16, 2004, at 5:44 PM, Gaertk at aol.com wrote:
>>
>>>The last time this came up, I mentioned that I first heard about
>>>Brust from the folks at rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan .
>>>Which Hobb book did you read?  Her Farseer and Liveship
>>>trilogies are noticably different in tone and viewpoint.
>>>Assuming you're mispelling Farland, what I've heard of him is
>>>that he had some good ideas, but poor execution and lame ending.
>>
>> Oh the Anne McCaffrey effect. "When an author takes a good idea and
>> totally ruins it"

> I must admit to raising eyebrows at the slamming of McCaffrey.  In
> addition, it is my opinion that some of the most enjoyable reads
> have been from taking an idea and completely running away with it.

Has she written anything of any quality since, say, Dragon Drums?  I
pretty much gave up on her 20 years or so ago, writing her off as
another author ruined by success.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From gomi at speakeasy.net  Tue Aug 17 15:48:02 2004
From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:48:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: If you like Robert Jordan
In-Reply-To: <m2y8kdxu22.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>
References: <3E400AEB.537F31F9.00048EA6@aol.com> <3E400AEB.537F31F9.00048EA6@aol.com>
 <5.1.0.14.2.20040817114215.02d7f258@pop.dragon.com> <m2y8kdxu22.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408171547270.24848@shell2.speakeasy.net>

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>
> Has she written anything of any quality since, say, Dragon Drums?  I
> pretty much gave up on her 20 years or so ago, writing her off as
> another author ruined by success.

My understanding is that she hasn't written anything at all for quite some
time; these days, she's a brand name in front of a stable of ghostwriters.

pe



From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Tue Aug 17 15:51:57 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:51:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: If you like Robert Jordan
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408171547270.24848@shell2.speakeasy.net>
References: <3E400AEB.537F31F9.00048EA6@aol.com> <3E400AEB.537F31F9.00048EA6@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040817114215.02d7f258@pop.dragon.com> <m2y8kdxu22.fsf@gw.dd-b.net> <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408171547270.24848@shell2.speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408171549080.14434@flora04.slac.stanford.edu>



On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Gomi no Sensei wrote:

> My understanding is that she hasn't written anything at all for quite some
> time; these days, she's a brand name in front of a stable of ghostwriters.

Do stables contain ghosts, in case I ever have one to store?



From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net  Tue Aug 17 17:04:15 2004
From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 19:04:15 -0500
Subject: If you like Robert Jordan
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408171549080.14434@flora04.slac.stanford.edu>
References: <3E400AEB.537F31F9.00048EA6@aol.com> <3E400AEB.537F31F9.00048EA6@aol.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040817114215.02d7f258@pop.dragon.com> <m2y8kdxu22.fsf@gw.dd-b.net> <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408171547270.24848@shell2.speakeasy.net> <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408171549080.14434@flora04.slac.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <41229CFF.4030602@comcast.net>

Hmmm.  She's "co-written" scads of stuff, which undoubtedly means that 
she did supervisory work and the other author did all the real writing.  
Can you point to anything that she *says* she wrote and didn't?

I agree that her best was a long time ago, and I wish she'd just let it 
go with dignity.

M

Philip Hart wrote:

>On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Gomi no Sensei wrote:
>
>  
>
>>My understanding is that she hasn't written anything at all for quite some
>>time; these days, she's a brand name in front of a stable of ghostwriters.
>>    
>>
>
>Do stables contain ghosts, in case I ever have one to store?
>
>
>  
>




From mam at theWorld.com  Tue Aug 17 20:14:00 2004
From: mam at theWorld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 23:14:00 -0400
Subject: If you like Robert Jordan
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408171549080.14434@flora04.slac.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0408172306040.3988996-100000@shell01-g>

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, Philip Hart wrote:

#Do stables contain ghosts, in case I ever have one to store?

Don't look a ghost horse in the mouth.

Cf. "Widdicombe Fair". Googling for the lyrics, I found a number of
sites. The Digital Tradition has a version at
http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=7873

A lyric more similar to the one that I know is at
http://www.cattell.net/devon/rbcpoems.htm
at the bottom of the page.

-- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname
     http://mark.cracksandshards.com/filk.html
     Now on the Filker's Bardic Webring!
     [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]




From wamydia23 at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 17 23:14:19 2004
From: wamydia23 at yahoo.com (wamydia)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 23:14:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Anne McCaffrey (was:  If you like Robert Jordan)
In-Reply-To: <41229CFF.4030602@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20040818061419.5507.qmail@web20527.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Mia McDavid <mia_mcdavid at comcast.net> wrote:

> Hmmm.  She's "co-written" scads of stuff, which
> undoubtedly means that 
> she did supervisory work and the other author did
> all the real writing.  
> Can you point to anything that she *says* she wrote
> and didn't?
> 
> I agree that her best was a long time ago, and I
> wish she'd just let it 
> go with dignity.


Has anyone read her "Freedom" series?  It is pretty
recent (I think the fourth book was released just last
year) and quite a departure from the Pern novels.  I
have read the first three books in the series and
really enjoyed them.  Instead of dragonriders and
singing ships, the Freedom series is about alien
invasions, colonial survival on an alien planet, and a
fight for liberation.  Much more sci-fi than fantasy. 
I would agree that her earlier stuff was her best, but
I think she can still tell a good story when she isn't
trying to stretch the Pern world farther than it
should ever have gone. 
 
Has anyone read "Pegasus in Space" and the related
series?  I saw those at the bookstore recently and
wasn't sure if I was up for giving them a try or not. 
I believe some of the books in the series were written
a number of years ago and then she released "Pegasus
in Space" as a follow-up recently.  Does anyone have a
recommendation one way or the other?

Amy




	
		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 


From shannon3d at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 18 08:20:34 2004
From: shannon3d at yahoo.com (Shannon Wimberly)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 08:20:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Anne McCaffrey (was:  If you like Robert Jordan)
In-Reply-To: <20040818061419.5507.qmail@web20527.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20040818152034.20561.qmail@web52003.mail.yahoo.com>


--- wamydia <wamydia23 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> 
> Has anyone read her "Freedom" series?  It is pretty
> recent (I think the fourth book was released just
> last
> year) and quite a departure from the Pern novels.  I
> have read the first three books in the series and
> really enjoyed them.  Instead of dragonriders and
> singing ships, the Freedom series is about alien
> invasions, colonial survival on an alien planet, and
> a
> fight for liberation.  Much more sci-fi than
> fantasy. 
> I would agree that her earlier stuff was her best,
> but
> I think she can still tell a good story when she
> isn't
> trying to stretch the Pern world farther than it
> should ever have gone. 
>  
> Has anyone read "Pegasus in Space" and the related
> series?  I saw those at the bookstore recently and
> wasn't sure if I was up for giving them a try or
> not. 
> I believe some of the books in the series were
> written
> a number of years ago and then she released "Pegasus
> in Space" as a follow-up recently.  Does anyone have
> a
> recommendation one way or the other?
> 
> Amy


I've read the Freedom series.  Like most of her other
series, though I didn't like the last book.  It seems
to me that that happened with the Crystal series and
the Acorna series.  I think that's one of the points
already made in the thread.  She starts out strong
then proceeds to beat the idea until it's stretched
beyond it's limits.

I haven't read _Pegasus in Space_ so no
reccommendations there.  Although if it's a new world
and she follows her pattern, it might be worth
checking out at the library.

An interesting side note on libraries, My local
library system (I'm in a large suburb of a major city)
only has one Brust book to offer--  _Agyar_  Of
course, I buy my Brust book for the many re-reads, but
I did find that interesting.

Shannon 



		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 


From zizban at adelphia.net  Wed Aug 18 08:36:39 2004
From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:36:39 -0400
Subject: Anne McCaffrey (was:  If you like Robert Jordan)
In-Reply-To: <20040818152034.20561.qmail@web52003.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040818152034.20561.qmail@web52003.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <66053D63-F12C-11D8-9E8B-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net>


On Aug 18, 2004, at 11:20 AM, Shannon Wimberly wrote:

>
> --- wamydia <wamydia23 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Has anyone read her "Freedom" series?  It is pretty
>> recent (I think the fourth book was released just
>> last
>> year) and quite a departure from the Pern novels.  I
>> have read the first three books in the series and
>> really enjoyed them.  Instead of dragonriders and
>> singing ships, the Freedom series is about alien
>> invasions, colonial survival on an alien planet, and
>> a
>> fight for liberation.  Much more sci-fi than
>> fantasy.
>> I would agree that her earlier stuff was her best,
>> but
>> I think she can still tell a good story when she
>> isn't
>> trying to stretch the Pern world farther than it
>> should ever have gone.
>>
>> Has anyone read "Pegasus in Space" and the related
>> series?  I saw those at the bookstore recently and
>> wasn't sure if I was up for giving them a try or
>> not.
>> I believe some of the books in the series were
>> written
>> a number of years ago and then she released "Pegasus
>> in Space" as a follow-up recently.  Does anyone have
>> a
>> recommendation one way or the other?
>>
>> Amy
>
>
> I've read the Freedom series.  Like most of her other
> series, though I didn't like the last book.  It seems
> to me that that happened with the Crystal series and
> the Acorna series.  I think that's one of the points
> already made in the thread.  She starts out strong
> then proceeds to beat the idea until it's stretched
> beyond it's limits.
>
> I haven't read _Pegasus in Space_ so no
> reccommendations there.  Although if it's a new world
> and she follows her pattern, it might be worth
> checking out at the library.
>
> An interesting side note on libraries, My local
> library system (I'm in a large suburb of a major city)
> only has one Brust book to offer--  _Agyar_  Of
> course, I buy my Brust book for the many re-reads, but
> I did find that interesting.

My aunt did all the copy editing for the Acorna books and she noticed 
the decline in quality as well. She decided the latest Acorna book 
would be her last to work on because  it just got so bad. (and it 
didn't help that McCaddrey submitted the MS in 14 point type--a big no 
no).



From mr1 at rcosta.com  Wed Aug 18 09:44:36 2004
From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:44:36 -0400
Subject: Anne McCaffrey (was:  If you like Robert Jordan)
In-Reply-To: <20040818061419.5507.qmail@web20527.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <41229CFF.4030602@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <41234F34.23618.B6B0AD@localhost>

On 17 Aug 2004 at 23:14, wamydia wrote
> 
> Has anyone read "Pegasus in Space" and the related
> series?  I saw those at the bookstore recently and
> wasn't sure if I was up for giving them a try or not. 
> I believe some of the books in the series were written
> a number of years ago and then she released "Pegasus
> in Space" as a follow-up recently.  Does anyone have a
> recommendation one way or the other?
> 
> Amy
> 

I remember reading the Pegasus series a long time ago.  I didn't 
like them as well as the first few Pern books.  I think it was because 
I didn't really care about the characters very much.  I also got tired 
of the Pern books after awhile.  I felt they were too predicable.

M
Michele Riccio
mr1 at rcosta.com



From davids at Kithrup.COM  Fri Aug 20 12:33:54 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:33:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Vlad and the Orb
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040817154014.24659A-100000@kithrup.com>

Note:  A quote from /Sethra Lavode/ lurks below.  It's not much of
a spoiler, but it is a spoiler nonetheless, so this is the
requisite warning.


I was recently perusing some of the highlights of the life of Ben
Siegel, as his life tied into that of the Syndicate operations of
that era, at this site (which I highly recommend to anyone who has
a romanticised view of organized crime; these were and are
unpleasant fellows)

   http://www.crimelibrary.com/


And one of the things that struck me was that while subordinates
quite often whacked their superiors, it was never done personally.
Oh, the guy who benefits might well *set up* the boss (at a
restaurant, one notes), but he doesn't perform the deed.  More
often, the guy who wants it done makes sure to have an alibi for
the time the murder is committed.  I'm guessing that this was out
of pragmatism more than any sort of code:  Doing the deed that you
directly benefit from is something that the police can easily grab
you up on - and allies of the boss can whack you for in turn
(which did happen anyway, but my point is that direct
responsibility makes it more likely that they'll come directly for
the guy responsible for the action).

Anyway, this in turn got me thinking about Vlad and his former boss
Tagitchan (or whatever his name was).  Vlad admits that he killed
T_____ directly and then took over his operation.  So...  Why did
he do something so stupidly reckless instead of hiring someone he
trusted to do the thing?  And how did he get away with it, even
testifying under the Orb, of all things? 

Well, I had this little exchange in mind:

    /Sethra Lavode/, Chapter 83, pg 166:
 
    Pel:  "Your Majesty is invited to put me under the Orb."

    Zerika:  "I know something of the discipline you have
             studied, Duke.  I am prepared to believe you
             can fool the Orb as easily as you fooled me."


As we see, there's the strong suggestion that the Orb is not, and
never was, infallible at lie detection.  Perhaps Vlad heard how it
could be beaten, and took steps to do so.

Something that occurs to me is that it is interesting that Vlad
cannot quite recall his boss-victim's name.  It might just be a
conincidence of T_____ having a hard-to-pronounce name, but another
possibility is that Vlad used some method -- almost certainly
witchcraft, since his sorcery isn't that strong, and he didn't know
Daymar at the time, although he might have administered some
self-inflicted head trauma -- to mildly scramble or wipe out parts
of his own memory after committing the murder, perhaps only on a
temporary basis.  So when he's arrested and interrogated for the
crime under the Orb, he can answer questions like "Did you kill
T_____?" with "I don't know what you're talking about", and have it
be true.

Embroidering on this idea a bit, perhaps the memory-witchcraft was
to transfer some of his memories to Loiosh, or to use Loiosh to
suppress those memories.  Other than the trouble with the name, he
seems to have no problems remembering the deed itself now - or does
he?  Perhaps it *was* erased permanently, and he only remembers
what Loiosh told him about it.

Anyway, that's my pararectal ideation of the day.



From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Fri Aug 20 15:19:12 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:19:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Vlad and the Orb
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040817154014.24659A-100000@kithrup.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040817154014.24659A-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408201452020.15001@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>



On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, David Silberstein wrote:

> Note:  A quote from /Sethra Lavode/ lurks below.  It's not much of
> a spoiler, but it is a spoiler nonetheless, so this is the
> requisite warning.
>
> [snippage]
>
> trusted to do the thing?  And how did he get away with it, even
> testifying under the Orb, of all things?
>
> Well, I had this little exchange in mind:
>
>     /Sethra Lavode/, Chapter 83, pg 166:
>
>     Pel:  "Your Majesty is invited to put me under the Orb."
>
>     Zerika:  "I know something of the discipline you have
>              studied, Duke.  I am prepared to believe you
>              can fool the Orb as easily as you fooled me."
>
>
> As we see, there's the strong suggestion that the Orb is not, and
> never was, infallible at lie detection...


Assuming we're not talking about Vladish dissembling, I don't believe
this  - Z was (iirc) not in the calmest state at the time, and Pel
wouldn't deny an accusation of crazy skills.  If we are talking about
Vladish dissembling, then it seems to me that someone with any lawyering
talent, some general information about the topic in question, and time
could penetrate any defense, even the sort you come up with below.

Allow me to speculate that someone may have whispered in Z's ear
before Vlad's interrogation, "Let the Easterner slip and slide,
he's going to be useful".


> Something that occurs to me is that it is interesting that Vlad
> cannot quite recall his boss-victim's name.

> [typically brilliant speculation snipped]


Incidentally, nice to see some Text-based discussion,
and esp. connections between the Paarfiad and Vladiad.


From mklahn at mac.com  Fri Aug 20 15:23:39 2004
From: mklahn at mac.com (Matthew Klahn)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:23:39 -0500
Subject: Vlad and the Orb
Message-ID: <13594218.1093040619391.JavaMail.mklahn@mac.com>

On Friday, August 20, 2004, at 04:19PM, David Silberstein <davids at Kithrup.COM> wrote: 
[snip] 
>Anyway, this in turn got me thinking about Vlad and his former boss 
>Tagitchan (or whatever his name was).  Vlad admits that he killed 
>T_____ directly and then took over his operation.  So...  Why did 
>he do something so stupidly reckless instead of hiring someone he 
>trusted to do the thing?  And how did he get away with it, even 
>testifying under the Orb, of all things? 

[snip] 

>As we see, there's the strong suggestion that the Orb is not, and 
>never was, infallible at lie detection.  Perhaps Vlad heard how it 
>could be beaten, and took steps to do so. 

[snip] 

>Anyway, that's my pararectal ideation of the day. 

I am AFB right now, but I thought that he talked a little about this in _Phoenix_, and it was more like he was truthful, but skillfully evasive by interpretting and responding to each question in a way that would be evaluted superficially as true, but deeply as evasive. The problem really is that the Orb seems to only do the superficial analysis, as it doesn't have all the requisite context to do the deeper analysis that would show that the answer was evasive. 

In fact, I strongly remember that Zerika and Vlad talk about how he first met her when he had to testify under the orb. Can anyone look up the relevant text and confirm whether I'm right? 

Matthew Klahn


From bryann at bryann.net  Fri Aug 20 15:38:32 2004
From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:38:32 -0500
Subject: Vlad and the Orb
In-Reply-To: <13594218.1093040619391.JavaMail.mklahn@mac.com>
Message-ID: <ADEBKIJABDCGEEPKAIOFOEPDDCAA.bryann@bryann.net>

> I am AFB right now, but I thought that he talked a little about
> this in _Phoenix_, and it was more like he was truthful, but
> skillfully evasive by interpretting and responding to each
> question in a way that would be evaluted superficially as true,
> but deeply as evasive. The problem really is that the Orb seems
> to only do the superficial analysis, as it doesn't have all the
> requisite context to do the deeper analysis that would show that
> the answer was evasive.
>
> In fact, I strongly remember that Zerika and Vlad talk about how
> he first met her when he had to testify under the orb. Can anyone
> look up the relevant text and confirm whether I'm right?
>
> Matthew Klahn

Book of Taltos

pg 306 -
	I was ordered to testify "Under the Orb," with the Empress there to
observe, and all these peers of House Jhereg who had no power at all in the
running of the Organization.  I was asked things like, "When did you last
see him alive?" and I'd say, "Oh, I don't know; he was always pretty dead,"
and they'd rebuke me sternly.  They asked my opinion as to who killed him
and I said that I believed he had killed himself.  The Orb showed that I was
telling the truth, and I was; messing with me the way he'd been doing was
like asking to die.  The only time the Orb caught me lying was when I made
some remark about how overwhelmed I was to be speaking before such an august
assembly.

pg 307 -
	"Thank you, Your Majesty.  I ask only to serve you."
	"Indeed, Baronet?"  She seemed amused.  "I suspect the Orb would detect a
falsehood there.  You are usually more careful in your evasions."
	She remembered.
	"It is a pleasure not to have to dissemble before Your Majesty," I said.
"I prefer to lie directly."

pg 311 -
	"I [Zerika] remembered you [Vlad] faintly, from your skillful dancing
around the truth during a certain murder inquiry."

Bryan




From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Fri Aug 20 15:43:40 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:43:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Vlad and the Orb
In-Reply-To: <ADEBKIJABDCGEEPKAIOFOEPDDCAA.bryann@bryann.net>
References: <ADEBKIJABDCGEEPKAIOFOEPDDCAA.bryann@bryann.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408201541300.23361@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>



On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Bryan Newell wrote:

> pg 311 -
> 	"I [Zerika] remembered you [Vlad] faintly, from your skillful dancing
> around the truth during a certain murder inquiry."


This argues a bit against the "whisper-in-the-ear-Let-the-kid-walk"
suggestion, but then again Z might have been guarding a confidence.


From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 20 15:47:24 2004
From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:47:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Vlad and the Orb
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040817154014.24659A-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <20040820224724.21425.qmail@web50705.mail.yahoo.com>


--- David Silberstein <davids at Kithrup.COM> wrote:

> Note:  A quote from /Sethra Lavode/ lurks below.  It's not much of
> a spoiler, but it is a spoiler nonetheless, so this is the
> requisite warning.
...

> Something that occurs to me is that it is interesting that Vlad
> cannot quite recall his boss-victim's name.  It might just be a
> conincidence of T_____ having a hard-to-pronounce name, but another
> possibility is that Vlad used some method -- almost certainly
> witchcraft, since his sorcery isn't that strong, and he didn't know
> Daymar at the time, although he might have administered some
> self-inflicted head trauma -- to mildly scramble or wipe out parts
> of his own memory after committing the murder, perhaps only on a
> temporary basis.  So when he's arrested and interrogated for the
> crime under the Orb, he can answer questions like "Did you kill
> T_____?" with "I don't know what you're talking about", and have it
> be true.
> 
> Embroidering on this idea a bit, perhaps the memory-witchcraft was
> to transfer some of his memories to Loiosh, or to use Loiosh to
> suppress those memories.  Other than the trouble with the name, he
> seems to have no problems remembering the deed itself now - or does
> he?  Perhaps it *was* erased permanently, and he only remembers
> what Loiosh told him about it.
> 
> Anyway, that's my pararectal ideation of the day.

Some of the other speculations I've read here might turn out to
be true, but this is the first one that's brought a smile to my
face.

Jerry Friedman



	
		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 


From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 20 15:59:40 2004
From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:59:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Vlad and the Orb
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408201541300.23361@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <20040820225940.90064.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Philip Hart <philiph at slac.stanford.edu> wrote:

> 
> 
> On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Bryan Newell wrote:
> 
> > pg 311 -
> > 	"I [Zerika] remembered you [Vlad] faintly, from your skillful dancing
> > around the truth during a certain murder inquiry."
> 
> 
> This argues a bit against the "whisper-in-the-ear-Let-the-kid-walk"
> suggestion, but then again Z might have been guarding a confidence.

And from elsewhere in the quotation, Z only observed.  The ears that
needed to be whispered into belonged to anonymous "they", maybe Iorich
justiciars?

Jerry Friedman



		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Fri Aug 20 16:08:08 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:08:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Vlad and the Orb
In-Reply-To: <20040820225940.90064.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040820225940.90064.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408201603280.23361@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>



On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Jerry Friedman wrote:

> > > pg 311 -
> > > 	"I [Zerika] remembered you [Vlad] faintly, from your skillful dancing
> > > around the truth during a certain murder inquiry."
> >
> >
> > This argues a bit against the "whisper-in-the-ear-Let-the-kid-walk"
> > suggestion, but then again Z might have been guarding a confidence.
>
> And from elsewhere in the quotation, Z only observed.  The ears that
> needed to be whispered into belonged to anonymous "they", maybe Iorich
> justiciars?

Fair enough - but Sethra hardly knows Iorich justiciars.  So S->Z->I_j.
Or perhaps through Pel, which would be interesting.

I could speculate that the Iorich would disdain a close inspection of a
Jhereg matter and hence allowed Vlad to dance, but then again they
probably spend a lot of time inspecting Jhereg matters.


Note that "I was ordered to testify `Under the Orb,' with the Empress
there to observe," is rather an odd formulation - could someone testify
beneath the orb _without_ the Empress present?


From Gaertk at aol.com  Fri Aug 20 16:53:55 2004
From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:53:55 -0400
Subject: Vlad and the Orb
Message-ID: <769AAFF9.7EC08026.00048EA6@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/20/2004 6:23:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Matthew Klahn <mklahn at mac.com> writes:

> In fact, I strongly remember that Zerika and Vlad talk about 
> how he first met her when he had to testify under the orb. 
> Can anyone look up the relevant text and confirm whether I'm 
> right? 

Not the reference you're asking for, but still about Vlad and 
the Orb:

"The Orb is an awfully literal-minded thing, Teldra.  They 
asked their questions, and I answered, and they looked at the 
Orb, and then they let me go."  --Issola, p. 23 (hc)


PS. David, is there a chance you could make it so the book
search allows you to sort by book (and then by chapter)?  It
would be really helpful, since I almost always know which book
the quote I want is in.


--KG



From dd-b at dd-b.net  Fri Aug 20 21:46:40 2004
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 23:46:40 -0500
Subject: Vlad and the Orb
In-Reply-To: <769AAFF9.7EC08026.00048EA6@aol.com> (Gaertk@aol.com's message
 of "Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:53:55 -0400")
References: <769AAFF9.7EC08026.00048EA6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m2isbdw11r.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>

Gaertk at aol.com writes:

> PS. David, is there a chance you could make it so the book
> search allows you to sort by book (and then by chapter)?  It
> would be really helpful, since I almost always know which book
> the quote I want is in.

I don't think I'm likely to. I mean, it's just software, so anything
is *possible*.  But that's unlikely to appear before V2, which may or
may not ever appear (a particular complete redesign of the book
search, which I may or may not use).
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com  Fri Aug 20 22:08:42 2004
From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 01:08:42 EDT
Subject: Vlad and the Orb
Message-ID: <8b.12cd5af4.2e5832da@aol.com>

philiph at slac.stanford.edu wrote on 8/20/2004 7:08:36 P.M.

> Fair enough - but Sethra hardly knows Iorich justiciars. So S->Z->I_j.
> Or perhaps through Pel, which would be interesting.

Hi,

I think it could not have involved Pel because I believe Pel 
is dead or maybe I just want to believe ?the hot-tempered 
Yendi? (Lord of Castle Black Paperback page 113) who 
sometimes acts like a Dragon was dead before Vlad was born.  

If Pel had been alive and Prime Minister in Yendi, I 
think he would have put a stop to the whole thing years 
ago because his chances of staying Prime Minister during 
the Dragon Reign would have been better with his 
friends Morrolan or Aliera as Emperor.

If Pel had been alive and Prime Minister in Phoenix, Pel 
would have warned the Empress about the danger of creating
martyrs and that the Jhereg(House) was up to something. 

We know at least that Pel is not Prime Minister when Orca
happens (The book of Athyra, Orca page 305).  

For almost a month, I kept myself from writing about this 
because it could turn out not to be true with just a 
sentence in a upcoming book and maybe it is something that 
Steven Brust is waiting to reveal.  Today, I just finished
reading The Sun, the Moon, & the Stars (Orb trade paperback
reprint), which ended before I wanted it to.  I took Pel 
being mentioned today, and philiph at slac.stanford.edu 
writing (8/20/2004 6:19:42 P.M.)

>Incidentally, nice to see some Text-based discussion,
>and esp. connections between the Paarfiad and Vladiad.

and Steven Brust writing in ?The Sun, the Moon, & the Stars?
page 202-203 ?It would be nice if you were to find what I 
tried to put there,?, as a sign that it might be okay to 
write about Pel acting like a Dragon. 

I just hope writing about this does not spoil anything 
in the future or make past incarnations different
like (Heh!) Tazendra. 

I am hoping the next part of the Paarfiad will be about 
Dolivar or maybe about Verra before she could be in two 
places at once. 

Bye.

Linda G.

From davids at Kithrup.COM  Mon Aug 23 09:13:45 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 09:13:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Vlad and the Orb
In-Reply-To: <ADEBKIJABDCGEEPKAIOFOEPDDCAA.bryann@bryann.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040823082010.10362A-100000@kithrup.com>

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004, Bryan Newell wrote:

>Matthew Klahn wrote:

>> this in _Phoenix_, and it was more like he was truthful, but
>> skillfully evasive by interpretting and responding to each
>> question in a way that would be evaluted superficially as true,
>> but deeply as evasive. The problem really is that the Orb seems
>> to only do the superficial analysis, as it doesn't have all the
>> requisite context to do the deeper analysis that would show that
>> the answer was evasive.

Well, yeah, but any competent *interrogator* should be able to tell
that the answer is evasive.  Heck, any competent *five-year-old*
(or Dragaeran equivalent thereof) should be able to tell that the
answer is evasive, and pipe up with "You didn't answer the
question!" 

Which brings me back to my other notion, that the interrogation was
"scripted"; questions would be asked, and as long as the answers
were true, the interrogators *would not press for other (less
evasive) answers*.  Which in turn strongly suggests that the
interrogators were utterly incompetent, or completely corrupt, or
both, but more probably the latter than the former.

>
>Book of Taltos
>
>pg 306 -

>   I was ordered to testify "Under the Orb," with the Empress
>   there to observe, and all these peers of House Jhereg who had
>   no power at all in the running of the Organization. 

Bingo.  See what I mean about corrupt?  "A Jhereg noble was killed
- but he was a member of the Organization, as is the suspect, and
we don't mess with the Organization, and the Organization doesn't
mess with us.  If the Organization wants, the suspect will be
'taken care of' by someone in the Organization."

>    I was asked things like, "When did you last see him alive?"
>    and I'd say, "Oh, I don't know; he was always pretty dead,"
>    and they'd rebuke me sternly. 

Note that it says they "rebuke" him - but don't press for the damn
*time*.

>    They asked my opinion as to who killed him and I said that I
>    believed he had killed himself.  The Orb showed that I was
>    telling the truth, and I was; messing with me the way he'd
>    been doing was like asking to die.

Yeah, and do they ever ask, point blank "Did you kill him, yes or 
no?"

>    The only time the Orb caught me lying was when I made some
>    remark about how overwhelmed I was to be speaking before such
>    an august assembly.
>

Which strongly suggests that Vlad knows/knew in advance that the
whole interrogation thing was a sham, a farce, a pathetic joke, and
was completely prepared to cakewalk it.  Unless, of course, it
wasn't, in which case his preparations might well have included
witchcraft to affect his own memory.

  "Listen, Vlad:  Jhereg trials for inter-Organization stuff are
   a mere formality.  It's more of an intelligence test, really.
   Any halfway clever person can give answers which are true, but
   which don't implicate himself, and the interrogators don't give
   enough of a damn to dig further."

   "There are exceptions, of course.  If you're ever caught for,
    say, a Morganti assassination - I know you don't do those sorts
    of things, but I know you have a friend who maybe does - you
    won't be interrogated by nobles of House Jhereg who know the
    kinds of questions to ask that *can* be evaded, you'll be put
    to the question by Iorich justicers, who *will not stop* until
    you have almost literally damned yourself with your own mouth.
    And then you'd be executed.  End of story."

Hmm.  Sudden thought: Morganti assassins who are caught are
themselves permanently assassinated by the Jhereg, although perhaps
non-Morganti, in order to protect those who hired him, as well as
anyone else involved, precisely because of the dangers of competent
and non-corrupt investigation.

>pg 307 -
>	"Thank you, Your Majesty.  I ask only to serve you."
>	"Indeed, Baronet?"  She seemed amused.  "I suspect the
>   Orb would detect a falsehood there.  You are usually more
>   careful in your evasions."
>	She remembered.

Actually, as the Paarfiad suggests, she is able to immediately
review the entire trial then and there because the *Orb* remembers
*everything*.



From howard at brazee.net  Mon Aug 23 10:16:03 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:16:03 -0600
Subject: Vlad and the Orb
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040823082010.10362A-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <000201c48934$def57730$b07ba8c0@Dad133>

David Silberstein wrote:

> Which brings me back to my other notion, that the interrogation was
> "scripted"; questions would be asked, and as long as the answers
> were true, the interrogators *would not press for other (less
> evasive) answers*.  Which in turn strongly suggests that the
> interrogators were utterly incompetent, or completely corrupt, or
> both, but more probably the latter than the former.

There are different ways to be corrupt.  They might be interested in going
through the motions, in getting the Orb to record the transaction, or had
other interests that could be served by this scripted interrogation - for
wide varieties of reasons.   Corruption may be "doing what an empress or
goddess wanted".   It might be "keeping the powers that be happy", or simply
"saving us from having a situation that would be bad for our people".







From erik at debill.org  Mon Aug 23 10:29:19 2004
From: erik at debill.org (erik at debill.org)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 12:29:19 -0500
Subject: Vlad and the Orb
In-Reply-To: <000201c48934$def57730$b07ba8c0@Dad133>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040823082010.10362A-100000@kithrup.com> <000201c48934$def57730$b07ba8c0@Dad133>
Message-ID: <20040823172919.GA30141@debill.org>

On Mon, Aug 23, 2004 at 11:16:03AM -0600, Howard Brazee wrote:
> 
> There are different ways to be corrupt.  They might be interested in going
> through the motions, in getting the Orb to record the transaction, or had
> other interests that could be served by this scripted interrogation - for
> wide varieties of reasons.   Corruption may be "doing what an empress or
> goddess wanted".   It might be "keeping the powers that be happy", or simply
> "saving us from having a situation that would be bad for our people".

It might even be that they don't know how to do interrogations
properly.  I get the impression that police in the US didn't learn how
to build cases well until after they were forced to start giving
people Miranda warnings.  If your standard practice is to intimidate
Teckla into confessing, you'll probably be a fish out of water in
court with an educated suspect and a bunch of high nobles breathing
down your neck.

I get the feeling that a lot of things in Dragaera are more primitive
than we give them credit for, just because Vlad comes across as
relatively educated and sophisticated.


From davids at Kithrup.COM  Mon Aug 23 13:15:19 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:15:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Vlad and the Orb
In-Reply-To: <20040823172919.GA30141@debill.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040823122529.19638A-100000@kithrup.com>

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 erik at debill.org wrote:

>On Mon, Aug 23, 2004 at 11:16:03AM -0600, Howard Brazee wrote:

>>Corruption may be "doing what an empress or goddess
>>wanted".  It might be "keeping the powers that be happy", or
>>simply "saving us from having a situation that would be bad for
>>our people".

Or -- another thought -- the interrogators might have been gently
convinced (might be persuasion, might be blackmail, maybe a little
of both) to use the "pro forma" interrogation by someone else who
is watching out for Vlad, and who might have influence among the
Jhereg.  Say, Kiera the Thief?

Remember, this particular murder took place when Vlad was very
young, just starting out in the Organization.  He hadn't met any
of his powerful Dragon friends at that point; there was no *reason*
for the Empress to intervene.  What's one Jhereg, more or less?
Why should she care if Vlad lives or dies (at that point in time)?
Especially if he *is* a murderer.

I'll admit I don't know enough about Verra's methods to know if
should would have intervened, but I kinda doubt it.  It doesn't
seem like something that would show up on her radar, as it were,
nor the sort of thing she would interfere with.

Of course, Kiera might not have *told* Vlad she was intervening,
and Vlad picked up that he was getting it easy over the course of
the questions, but not realized that it was nonstandard.

>It might even be that they don't know how to do interrogations
>properly.  I get the impression that police in the US didn't learn
>how to build cases well until after they were forced to start
>giving people Miranda warnings.

Comparing and contrasting standards of law and justice and evidence
in different times and countries and cultures would be a
fascinating project, but it's not one I've time for now.

However, there is evidence that Dragaera does have a legal
system and standards of justice, and I find it likely that
"not knowing how to to interrogations properly" is specific
to Vlad's case and similar situations.

>  If your standard practice is to intimidate Teckla into
>confessing, 

Do you really think that intimidating Teckla is standard practice
in settling cases?  Well, maybe during Jhereg reigns.

But remember, they have access to an (alleged) lie detector.  All
the Teckla has to do to verify his alibi is state it under the Orb.

Also, while most nobles might not care, there's a whole House for
whom justice and the miscarriage thereof is of paramount extreme
interest:  The Iorich.

>you'll probably be a fish out of water in court with an educated
>suspect and a bunch of high nobles breathing down your neck.

Yes, and if one noble accuses another?  Do you think Vlad is the
first noble to stand trial?  Do you really think that sloppy style
of interrogations would wash when the accusing party could hear how
easy his opponent was getting off?

>I get the feeling that a lot of things in Dragaera are more
>primitive than we give them credit for, just because Vlad comes
>across as relatively educated and sophisticated.

Yet the opposite can also be argued:  That after 200,000 years of
nearly continuous history, they'd have hammered out the really
basic rules of both interrogation and jurisprudence.

Especially since they have the Iorich, who are actively interested
in that sort of thing.



From mr1 at rcosta.com  Mon Aug 23 13:20:12 2004
From: mr1 at rcosta.com (Michele Riccio)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:20:12 -0400
Subject: Vlad and the Orb
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040823082010.10362A-100000@kithrup.com>
References: <ADEBKIJABDCGEEPKAIOFOEPDDCAA.bryann@bryann.net>
Message-ID: <412A193C.8057.17991FA@localhost>

On 23 Aug 2004 at 9:13, David Silberstein wrote

<snip>
> 
>  "A Jhereg noble was killed -
> but he was a member of the Organization, as is the suspect, and we
> don't mess with the Organization, and the Organization doesn't mess
> with us.  If the Organization wants, the suspect will be 'taken care
> of' by someone in the Organization."

Or perhaps, knowing that a member of the Organization will not 
testify against the Organization (I can't remember which book that 
was in...) they ask formalized questions which allow the person 
testifying to both remain "truthful" and "true to House Jhereg" - or, in 
the hopes that if you give someone enough rope they will form a 
noose and hang themselves.

M

Michele Riccio
mr1 at rcosta.com



From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Mon Aug 23 13:45:56 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:45:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Vlad and the Orb
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040823122529.19638A-100000@kithrup.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040823122529.19638A-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408231332250.4353@flora02.slac.stanford.edu>



On Mon, 23 Aug 2004, David Silberstein wrote:

> Remember, this particular murder took place when Vlad was very
> young, just starting out in the Organization.  He hadn't met any
> of his powerful Dragon friends at that point; [...]

Not entirely accurate - which is why I posed my speculation on the
chain of influence as I did earlier in the thread...


Anyway, seems to me that the simplest explanation is that the Jhereg
Council ordered or blessed or approved of the hit and said so to the
Empire, which followed its Let the Jhereg bury the Jhereg policy.


Re the original mess-with-memory suggestion, I think if I were to go
into such an interrogation I would want to know all the facts so I
could correctly answer the warm-ups (How long did you work for T...?
You don't know who your boss is?  Why don't you remember?) and carefully
avoid pitfalls.


From TimN at rcn.com  Mon Aug 23 14:47:22 2004
From: TimN at rcn.com (Timothy Nelson)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:47:22 -0400
Subject: Vlad and the Orb
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040823122529.19638A-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <001a01c4895a$caacca00$d916fea9@ananda>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Silberstein" <davids at Kithrup.COM>
To: "Dragaera List" <dragaera at dragaera.info>
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 4:15 PM
Subject: Re: Vlad and the Orb

> But remember, they have access to an (alleged) lie detector.  All
> the Teckla has to do to verify his alibi is state it under the Orb.

Can we afford to assume that the orb is used on anything less important than
the trial of a noble? I imagine the Orb cannot be available for every trial.
Do they have lie detection artifacts and/or spells available for
non-Orberific cases?



From erik at debill.org  Mon Aug 23 14:45:36 2004
From: erik at debill.org (erik at debill.org)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 16:45:36 -0500
Subject: Vlad and the Orb
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040823122529.19638A-100000@kithrup.com>
References: <20040823172919.GA30141@debill.org> <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040823122529.19638A-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <20040823214536.GA31068@debill.org>

On Mon, Aug 23, 2004 at 01:15:19PM -0700, David Silberstein wrote:
> >  If your standard practice is to intimidate Teckla into
> >confessing, 
> 
> Do you really think that intimidating Teckla is standard practice
> in settling cases?  Well, maybe during Jhereg reigns.
>
> But remember, they have access to an (alleged) lie detector.  All
> the Teckla has to do to verify his alibi is state it under the Orb.

I doubt that they can use the orb all that often.  If one Teckla
accuses the other of stealing, I doubt they'll bring in the orb.  If
two Dragons get in a fight and one dies, I doubt they'll bring in the
orb unless they're very powerful Dragons.  There are just too many
people and crimes to take up Orb time with them all.

Besides, having a "lie detector" is more likely to make you lazy.
Hell, existing (modern, real world) lie detectors are more about
intimidation than actual science.


> Also, while most nobles might not care, there's a whole House for
> whom justice and the miscarriage thereof is of paramount extreme
> interest:  The Iorich.

This may be so.  However, remember that this is also a culture where
it is accepted practice for nobles who disagree to hire armies of
mercenaries and fight wars, and it isn't considered unjust to have
normal folks fighting Sethra Lavode over a paternity suit.  Once you
accept trial by combat as a way to settle disputes things get very
very different, at least in my mind.


> >you'll probably be a fish out of water in court with an educated
> >suspect and a bunch of high nobles breathing down your neck.
> 
> Yes, and if one noble accuses another?  Do you think Vlad is the
> first noble to stand trial?  Do you really think that sloppy style
> of interrogations would wash when the accusing party could hear how
> easy his opponent was getting off?

None of the books have ever implied anything like our modern system of
direct examination, cross examination, re-direct and re-cross.  Even
most countries in the world don't allow for that.  Being able to
depend on a fair trial is really pretty darn rare, and seems to be a
trait more likely to show up in democracies than other forms of
government.  I don't get the impression they really have it.

If their justice system was fair, Vlad wouldn't be forced to accept a
beating at the hands of the Phoenix guard.  He would be able to defend
himself and then get acquitted on the grounds that he was defending
himself.

Given the distaste that so many have for Jhereg, would it be
surprising if their best legal minds didn't want to touch a Jhereg
case?  Just two Jhereg scum offing each other.  Nothing interesting
for the scholars and no glory for the rest of the folks.  Even if the
very best of them could tie Vlad into knots, this is just the sort of
case that would get delegated to the least competent underlings.


> >I get the feeling that a lot of things in Dragaera are more
> >primitive than we give them credit for, just because Vlad comes
> >across as relatively educated and sophisticated.
> 
> Yet the opposite can also be argued:  That after 200,000 years of
> nearly continuous history, they'd have hammered out the really
> basic rules of both interrogation and jurisprudence.
> 
> Especially since they have the Iorich, who are actively interested
> in that sort of thing.

I get the impression their society is (at the time of Vlad) starting
to come out of the Dark Ages and move into the Renaissance.  Their
progress in the sciences seems to be fundamentally different than
ours.

Give any of the great scientists 2000 years to investigate things and
you'd have really amazing things going on.  In fact, you can tell how
advanced a scientific discipline is by the average ages of people
winning Nobel Prizes.  In some disciplines, if you don't win one by
the time you're 35 you're never going to.  In others you don't do it
before your 40's or 50's (e.g. physics vs chemistry).  We've come that
far in only 200-300 years of actual science.  A 2000 year lifespan
would allow for individuals to learn an incredible amount of stuff in
their lifetime and then be able to build on it.  If they know of the
scientific method and are driven like we are, you'd expect them to be
enjoying the proverbial flying cars by now.

So, since they seem to make scientific advancements much more slowly
then we do, and even after having a country for 200k years their legal
system is positively primitive (different justice for different
people, legalized discrimination, widespread bribery and organized
crime with no real push to fight it), I really don't see anything
weird in them not having highly developed interrogation techniques.


-- 
Well I'm walking through the sand
In the desert of my mind
And I don't remember what it was
That I came here to find
  -- Sister Machine Gun "Alone"


From trevorsensei at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 23 20:59:43 2004
From: trevorsensei at yahoo.com (trevor laughlin)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:59:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: trying to unscribe
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040823082010.10362A-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <20040824035943.24981.qmail@web13708.mail.yahoo.com>


Sorry folks, 

after being on for a while, I have gathered all the
fandom I can withstand. 

Seem to be having trouble with the automated
unsubscribe as per the directions ing the

So, I ask the admin here, coudl you please unsubscribe
me.

Thanks
It's been a hoot

=====
~--------------------------~

^ Let your mind be your greatest tool. ^

   -        = Trevor Sensei =           -

        ~--------------------------~


		
_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush


From casey at the-bat.net  Mon Aug 23 10:34:04 2004
From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:34:04 -0400
Subject: Vlad and the Orb
In-Reply-To: <000201c48934$def57730$b07ba8c0@Dad133>
Message-ID: <mailman.2.1157398843.1952.dragaera@dragaera.info>

Howard Brazee wrote:
> David Silberstein wrote:
> 
> > Which brings me back to my other notion, that the interrogation was
> > "scripted"; questions would be asked, and as long as the answers
> > were true, the interrogators *would not press for other (less
> > evasive) answers*.  Which in turn strongly suggests that the
> > interrogators were utterly incompetent, or completely corrupt, or
> > both, but more probably the latter than the former.
> 
> There are different ways to be corrupt.  They might be interested in
> going through the motions, in getting the Orb to record the 
> transaction, or had other interests that could be served by this
> scripted interrogation - for wide varieties of reasons.   Corruption
> may be "doing what an empress or goddess wanted".   It might be
> "keeping the powers that be happy", or simply "saving us from having
> a situation that would be bad for our people".

I'd bet that the rules of evidence for interrogation under the Orb are
strict.  If the interrogator was allowed much latitude, then no one would
submit to it, and many more wars might be fought to gain control of the Orb
or destroy it.  This would be Not Good For The Empire.

Casey  



From davids at Kithrup.COM  Tue Aug 24 00:33:33 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 00:33:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Vlad and the Orb
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408231332250.4353@flora02.slac.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040823231232.2652A-100000@kithrup.com>

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004, Philip Hart wrote:
>
>
>On Mon, 23 Aug 2004, David Silberstein wrote:
>
>> Remember, this particular murder took place when Vlad was very
>> young, just starting out in the Organization.  He hadn't met any
>> of his powerful Dragon friends at that point; [...]
>
>Not entirely accurate - which is why I posed my speculation on the
>chain of influence as I did earlier in the thread...
>

I take your point, but I think it would have been highly
indiscreet, and also unnecessary, for the individual to whom you
have the honor to refer to have interceded directly with the
Empress at that point in time.  Which is why I phrased *my*
speculation in the way that I did.

>Anyway, seems to me that the simplest explanation is that the Jhereg
>Council ordered or blessed or approved of the hit and said so to the
>Empire, which followed its Let the Jhereg bury the Jhereg policy.
>

We have seen no evidence that the Jhereg Council orders or blesses
or approves *any* operations at Vlad's level.  Indeed, their
philosophy is almost certainly that as long as their share of
golden Imperials for the area continues to arrive with as little
delay as possible, they take no notice whatsoever.

Although - I am trying to recall if Vlad did get permission before
or perhaps after the fact from the Jhereg who was in charge of that
part of the city to take over that area.  Hmm.

>Re the original mess-with-memory suggestion, I think if I were to go
>into such an interrogation I would want to know all the facts so I
>could correctly answer the warm-ups (How long did you work for T...?

  "I don't know who that is." (True)

>You don't know who your boss is?  

  "No." (True)

>Why don't you remember?)

  "I don't know" (True)

But I am less inclined to give weight to that idea.



From davids at Kithrup.COM  Tue Aug 24 01:04:11 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 01:04:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Vlad and the Orb
In-Reply-To: <001a01c4895a$caacca00$d916fea9@ananda>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040824005908.2652B-100000@kithrup.com>

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004, Timothy Nelson wrote:

>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "David Silberstein"

>> But remember, they have access to an (alleged) lie detector.  All
>> the Teckla has to do to verify his alibi is state it under the Orb.
>
>Can we afford to assume that the orb is used on anything less
>important than the trial of a noble? I imagine the Orb cannot be
>available for every trial.

Well, they probably do indeed have high and low justice, and the
Empress probably cannot be bothered for *everything*.  But I would
imagine that in capital cases, at least, even Teckla would be put
under the Orb so as to ascertain guilt (or lack of guilt).

I have capital cases particularly in mind since that is what Vlad's
trial is.



From davids at Kithrup.COM  Tue Aug 24 01:47:44 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 01:47:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Vlad and the Orb
In-Reply-To: <20040823214536.GA31068@debill.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040824010529.2652C-100000@kithrup.com>

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 erik at debill.org wrote:

>On Mon, Aug 23, 2004 at 01:15:19PM -0700, David Silberstein wrote:
>>
>> But remember, they have access to an (alleged) lie detector.  All
>> the Teckla has to do to verify his alibi is state it under the Orb.
>
>I doubt that they can use the orb all that often. [Teckla petty
>thefts; Dragon duels] [...] There are just too many people and
>crimes to take up Orb time with them all. 

>Besides, having a "lie detector" is more likely to make you lazy.

Well, you can't have it both ways.  If the Orb is only used in a
few cases, then they don't have it to make them lazy, and they have
to have trials using their own knowledge and skills at analysis.

>Hell, existing (modern, real world) lie detectors are more about
>intimidation than actual science.

I understood that our lie detectors are sufficiently error-prone 
that they are not admissible as evidence?

>> Also, while most nobles might not care, there's a whole House for
>> whom justice and the miscarriage thereof is of paramount extreme
>> interest:  The Iorich.
>
>This may be so.  However, remember that this is also a culture where
>it is accepted practice for nobles who disagree to hire armies of
>mercenaries and fight wars, and it isn't considered unjust to have
>normal folks fighting Sethra Lavode over a paternity suit.

What?  Oh, Norathar e'Lanya.

And that whole thing of Dragons being *allowed* to throw armies at
each other is something I don't quite get.  Is there an example in
our history where vassals of a strong ruler who had a recognized
legal system were allowed to settle grievances by fighting minor
wars?  Obviously, vassals of a weak or figurehead ruler don't
count.

>  Once you accept trial by combat as a way to settle disputes
>things get very very different, at least in my mind. 
>

But only on the field of combat.  Presumably in courts of law,
legal argument still holds sway.

>> >you'll probably be a fish out of water in court with an educated
>> >suspect and a bunch of high nobles breathing down your neck.
>> 
>> Yes, and if one noble accuses another?  Do you think Vlad is the
>> first noble to stand trial?  Do you really think that sloppy style
>> of interrogations would wash when the accusing party could hear how
>> easy his opponent was getting off?
>
>None of the books have ever implied anything like our modern system of
>direct examination, cross examination, re-direct and re-cross.  Even
>most countries in the world don't allow for that.  Being able to
>depend on a fair trial is really pretty darn rare,

Well, that's a good point, especially in light of Khaavren's
interrogation, which I just re-read.

But I think Zerika *wants* to do things as fairly as possible.  I
can see her working with the Iorich to have fair trials.

>If their justice system was fair, Vlad wouldn't be forced to accept a
>beating at the hands of the Phoenix guard.  He would be able to defend
>himself and then get acquitted on the grounds that he was defending
>himself.

Hm.  Perhaps.  But you have to remember: Vlad is a *criminal*.  He
breaks the law in minor ways all the time, and in capital ways
less frequently.  Had he actually demanded "justice", I strongly
suspect that the outcome would have been very ironic, and made for
a much briefer series.

And for that matter, in our world, how many cases are there where
someone is allowed to defend themselves against being beaten by the
police?

>Given the distaste that so many have for Jhereg, would it be
>surprising if their best legal minds didn't want to touch a Jhereg
>case?  Just two Jhereg scum offing each other.  Nothing
>interesting for the scholars and no glory for the rest of the
>folks.  Even if the very best of them could tie Vlad into knots,
>this is just the sort of case that would get delegated to the
>least competent underlings. 

As I noted, it is almost certain that Vlad's interrogators were not
Iorich of any sort, but were rather nobles of House Jhereg.




From davids at Kithrup.COM  Tue Aug 24 01:50:45 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 01:50:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Vlad and the Orb
In-Reply-To: <200408240539.i7O5dgnG029760@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040824014909.2652D-100000@kithrup.com>

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004, Casey Rousseau wrote:

>
>I'd bet that the rules of evidence for interrogation under the Orb
>are strict.

Counterexample: Khaavren's interrogation.  Although Tortaalik was a
decadent Phoenix; I suspect Zerika's standards are much higher.




From greatcthulhu1 at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 24 05:32:46 2004
From: greatcthulhu1 at yahoo.com (Oscar Rios)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 05:32:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: trying to unscribe
In-Reply-To: <20040824035943.24981.qmail@web13708.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20040824123246.63417.qmail@web41902.mail.yahoo.com>

Same goes for me.  Please take me off the list.
 
Osk

trevor laughlin <trevorsensei at yahoo.com> wrote:

Sorry folks, 

after being on for a while, I have gathered all the
fandom I can withstand. 

Seem to be having trouble with the automated
unsubscribe as per the directions ing the

So, I ask the admin here, coudl you please unsubscribe
me.

Thanks
It's been a hoot

=====
~--------------------------~

^ Let your mind be your greatest tool. ^

- = Trevor Sensei = -

~--------------------------~



_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush

		
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!

From jhereg69 at earthlink.net  Tue Aug 24 07:02:35 2004
From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:02:35 -0400
Subject: Vlad and the Orb
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040824005908.2652B-100000@kithrup.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040824005908.2652B-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <412B4A7B.4000800@earthlink.net>

David Silberstein wrote:

> On Mon, 23 Aug 2004, Timothy Nelson wrote:
> 
> 
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: "David Silberstein"
> 
> 
>>>But remember, they have access to an (alleged) lie detector.  All
>>>the Teckla has to do to verify his alibi is state it under the Orb.
>>
>>Can we afford to assume that the orb is used on anything less
>>important than the trial of a noble? I imagine the Orb cannot be
>>available for every trial.
> 
> 
> Well, they probably do indeed have high and low justice, and the
> Empress probably cannot be bothered for *everything*.  But I would
> imagine that in capital cases, at least, even Teckla would be put
> under the Orb so as to ascertain guilt (or lack of guilt).
> 
> I have capital cases particularly in mind since that is what Vlad's
> trial is.

What makes Vlad's trial get the Imperial attention it does is that he 
allegedly killed a Duke of the Jhereg, and when peers get murdered, the 
Orb and trials get involved. I think he mentions it at some point, 
although I searched for every instance of the word Duke in the book 
search and can't seem to locate the right (Vladiad) book. Unlike in the 
Paarfiad, there aren't too many Dukes mentioned in the Vladiad and 
Tagichatn is one of them. Mellar, they weren't sure if he was a Count or 
a Duke, the Dzurlord in Jhereg was a Duke, and Paresh in Teckla refers 
to a Duke twice! Time for a mass re-read, to see if I can spot it.

Jose
-- 
Jose Marquez            \  Cthulhu 2004
jhereg69 at hackwater.com   \  Why vote for
http://www.hackwater.com  \  the lesser evil?



From dar at horusinc.com  Tue Aug 24 07:04:50 2004
From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 09:04:50 -0500
Subject: Vlad and the Orb
In-Reply-To: <412B4A7B.4000800@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <E1Bzbv3-0000ZS-00@flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net>

What makes Vlad's trial get the Imperial attention it does is that he 
allegedly killed a Duke of the Jhereg, and when peers get murdered, the 
Orb and trials get involved. I think he mentions it at some point, 
although I searched for every instance of the word Duke in the book 
search and can't seem to locate the right (Vladiad) book. Unlike in the 
Paarfiad, there aren't too many Dukes mentioned in the Vladiad and 
Tagichatn is one of them. Mellar, they weren't sure if he was a Count or 
a Duke, the Dzurlord in Jhereg was a Duke, and Paresh in Teckla refers 
to a Duke twice! Time for a mass re-read, to see if I can spot it.

-----

I was about to make this exact point, except that I remember that T. as a
Count rather than a Duke. In either case, the issue is that it was a Peer
who was killed, which is why the Orb was involved...

David A Rodemaker




From skychild70 at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 24 08:50:40 2004
From: skychild70 at hotmail.com (paul w)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 15:50:40 +0000
Subject: What does a jhereg nest look like?
Message-ID: <BAY10-F27rGS1DknvCe00065d4d@hotmail.com>

Hi again. Thanx for putting some thought into that Linda! You gave me some 
things to think about. I'm in the process of creating some "art work" based 
on Vlad and Loiosh, and possibly Loiosh and his mother before he hatched.

I figured if anyone on the planet would be insterested in my work in 
progress, it would be you fine people, so I've posted some of the material 
in it's current state. I've found that getting reactions from people half 
way through can motivate me to finish! This is a working model of Loiosh in 
a real-time 3d engine. You'll need a decent computer to be able to rotate 
around it smoothly. It also requires Shockwave to view. (if you are prompted 
to install Shockwave when you try to view it, make sure you uncheck the 
yahoo toolbar that tries to install with it!)
http://www.stuffycorporatedesign.com/misc/loishviewer.htm

I realize that most people aren't power users like myself, so I took a "snap 
shot" in case you don't have the capability (or desire) to view the actual 
project from the link above:
http://www.stuffycorporatedesign.com/misc/loiosh.jpg
His textures still need work, but it's getting close. The animation, such as 
it is, is an authoring pose that exists only to test Loiosh's 3d mesh. I'll 
be doing a 5 second or so animation in the next few days to put the model 
through it's paces and make sure he moves ok. I'm really excited about how 
cool this will look once I'm done with Vlad (end of week most likely)! Wish 
me luck, and thanx again for the feedback.

-Paul-

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! 
hthttp://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/



From davids at Kithrup.COM  Tue Aug 24 09:20:01 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 09:20:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Vlad and the Orb
In-Reply-To: <412B4A7B.4000800@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040824091401.29740A-100000@kithrup.com>

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Jose Marquez wrote:

>What makes Vlad's trial get the Imperial attention it does is that
>he allegedly killed a Duke of the Jhereg, and when peers get
>murdered, the Orb and trials get involved. I think he mentions it
>at some point, although I searched for every instance of the word
>Duke in the book search and can't seem to locate the right
>(Vladiad) book. 

/Phoenix/ isn't indexed in the booksearch yet.  However, the bit
about Tashishtan having "bought himself a Dukedom in the House and
then proceeded to get himself killed", and "when a Duke is
murdered, the Empire investigates" appear on pages 152 and 153
respectively in the Ace PB edition.  It's right before the
paragraphs quoted upthread about Vlad's interrogation, so if you
have /The Book of Taltos/, you can easily find it by checking those
pages.



From jhereg69 at earthlink.net  Tue Aug 24 09:27:14 2004
From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 12:27:14 -0400
Subject: What does a jhereg nest look like?
In-Reply-To: <BAY10-F27rGS1DknvCe00065d4d@hotmail.com>
References: <BAY10-F27rGS1DknvCe00065d4d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <412B6C62.6060206@earthlink.net>

paul w wrote:

> Hi again. Thanx for putting some thought into that Linda! You gave me 
> some things to think about. I'm in the process of creating some "art 
> work" based on Vlad and Loiosh, and possibly Loiosh and his mother 
> before he hatched.
> 
> I figured if anyone on the planet would be insterested in my work in 
> progress, it would be you fine people, so I've posted some of the 
> material in it's current state. I've found that getting reactions from 
> people half way through can motivate me to finish! This is a working 
> model of Loiosh in a real-time 3d engine. You'll need a decent computer 
> to be able to rotate around it smoothly. It also requires Shockwave to 
> view. (if you are prompted to install Shockwave when you try to view it, 
> make sure you uncheck the yahoo toolbar that tries to install with it!)
> http://www.stuffycorporatedesign.com/misc/loishviewer.htm
> 
> I realize that most people aren't power users like myself, so I took a 
> "snap shot" in case you don't have the capability (or desire) to view 
> the actual project from the link above:
> http://www.stuffycorporatedesign.com/misc/loiosh.jpg
> His textures still need work, but it's getting close. The animation, 
> such as it is, is an authoring pose that exists only to test Loiosh's 3d 
> mesh. I'll be doing a 5 second or so animation in the next few days to 
> put the model through it's paces and make sure he moves ok. I'm really 
> excited about how cool this will look once I'm done with Vlad (end of 
> week most likely)! Wish me luck, and thanx again for the feedback.

Hmm. Doesn't Loiosh have 4 limbs (two legs, two wings) rather than 6 
(two legs, two arms, two wings)?

Jose
-- 
Jose Marquez            \  Cthulhu 2004
jhereg69 at hackwater.com   \  Why vote for
http://www.hackwater.com  \  the lesser evil?



From jhereg69 at earthlink.net  Tue Aug 24 09:35:51 2004
From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 12:35:51 -0400
Subject: Vlad and the Orb
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040824091401.29740A-100000@kithrup.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040824091401.29740A-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <412B6E67.5030609@earthlink.net>

David Silberstein wrote:

> On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Jose Marquez wrote:
> 
> 
>>What makes Vlad's trial get the Imperial attention it does is that
>>he allegedly killed a Duke of the Jhereg, and when peers get
>>murdered, the Orb and trials get involved. I think he mentions it
>>at some point, although I searched for every instance of the word
>>Duke in the book search and can't seem to locate the right
>>(Vladiad) book. 
> 
> 
> /Phoenix/ isn't indexed in the booksearch yet.  However, the bit
> about Tashishtan having "bought himself a Dukedom in the House and
> then proceeded to get himself killed", and "when a Duke is
> murdered, the Empire investigates" appear on pages 152 and 153
> respectively in the Ace PB edition.  It's right before the
> paragraphs quoted upthread about Vlad's interrogation, so if you
> have /The Book of Taltos/, you can easily find it by checking those
> pages.

See, now you've gone and made it so I don't *need* to read the entire 
Vladiad again. I'll have to find me some other excuse, 'cause I'm gonna 
go do it anyway.... *grin*

Jose
-- 
Jose Marquez            \  Cthulhu 2004
jhereg69 at hackwater.com   \  Why vote for
http://www.hackwater.com  \  the lesser evil?



From casey at the-bat.net  Tue Aug 24 09:44:49 2004
From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 12:44:49 -0400
Subject: What does a jhereg nest look like?
In-Reply-To: <412B6C62.6060206@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <mailman.3.1157398843.1952.dragaera@dragaera.info>

Jose wrote:
> Hmm. Doesn't Loiosh have 4 limbs (two legs, two wings) rather than 6 
> (two legs, two arms, two wings)?

Indeed.  S. Hickman's cover art notwithstanding, Steve has confirmed many
times that jhereg have two legs not four.



From skychild70 at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 24 09:52:11 2004
From: skychild70 at hotmail.com (paul w)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 16:52:11 +0000
Subject: What does a jhereg nest look like? 
Message-ID: <BAY10-F16fEg897BqgF0001d4f0@hotmail.com>

Wow. That's harsh. Sigh... somehow I missed that fact, and have been using 
the covers as reference. ...Thanx... I think!  ;]
-paul-

Jose wrote:

>Indeed.  S. Hickman's cover art notwithstanding, Steve has confirmed many
>times that jhereg have two legs not four.

_________________________________________________________________
Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools and 
more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx



From dd-b at dd-b.net  Tue Aug 24 12:22:58 2004
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:22:58 -0500
Subject: trying to unscribe
In-Reply-To: <20040824123246.63417.qmail@web41902.mail.yahoo.com> (Oscar
 Rios's message of "Tue, 24 Aug 2004 05:32:46 -0700 (PDT)")
References: <20040824123246.63417.qmail@web41902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <m2k6vonxwt.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>

So, you two, what problem are you having?

Did you send the unsubscribe message from the email account you're
subscribed through?  Did you receive the confirmation message?  Did
you reply to the confirmation message?

Oscar Rios <greatcthulhu1 at yahoo.com> writes:

> Same goes for me.  Please take me off the list.
>  
> Osk
>
> trevor laughlin <trevorsensei at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Sorry folks, 
>
> after being on for a while, I have gathered all the
> fandom I can withstand. 
>
> Seem to be having trouble with the automated
> unsubscribe as per the directions ing the
>
> So, I ask the admin here, coudl you please unsubscribe
> me.
>
> Thanks
> It's been a hoot
>
> =====
> ~--------------------------~
>
> ^ Let your mind be your greatest tool. ^
>
> - = Trevor Sensei = -
>
> ~--------------------------~
>
>
>
> _______________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush
>
> 		
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!

-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Tue Aug 24 12:27:46 2004
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:27:46 -0500
Subject: What does a jhereg nest look like?
In-Reply-To: <BAY10-F27rGS1DknvCe00065d4d@hotmail.com> (paul w.'s message of
 "Tue, 24 Aug 2004 15:50:40 +0000")
References: <BAY10-F27rGS1DknvCe00065d4d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <m2fz6cnxot.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>

"paul w" <skychild70 at hotmail.com> writes:

> http://www.stuffycorporatedesign.com/misc/loishviewer.htm
>
> I realize that most people aren't power users like myself, so I took a
> "snap shot" in case you don't have the capability (or desire) to view
> the actual project from the link above:
> http://www.stuffycorporatedesign.com/misc/loiosh.jpg
> His textures still need work, but it's getting close. The animation,
> such as it is, is an authoring pose that exists only to test Loiosh's
> 3d mesh. I'll be doing a 5 second or so animation in the next few days
> to put the model through it's paces and make sure he moves ok. I'm
> really excited about how cool this will look once I'm done with Vlad
> (end of week most likely)! Wish me luck, and thanx again for the
> feedback.

Well *that's* pretty darned cool!  It even works with Shockwave in
Opera. 

The initial pose *is* a bit startline, but the animation takes him
into several much more reasonable positions.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From stlatos at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 24 12:58:52 2004
From: stlatos at yahoo.com (Sean Whalen)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 12:58:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Vlad and the Orb
In-Reply-To: <20040823214536.GA31068@debill.org>
Message-ID: <20040824195852.52592.qmail@web52108.mail.yahoo.com>


--- erik at debill.org wrote:

> 
> If their justice system was fair, Vlad wouldn't be
> forced to accept a
> beating at the hands of the Phoenix guard.  He would
> be able to defend
> himself and then get acquitted on the grounds that
> he was defending
> himself.
> 

   Not everything that's fair is successful all the
time.  During many reigns people can probably succeed
when bringing unprovoked attacks by the Guard to
attention (if there are surviving witnesses).   Vlad,
however, must follow the Jhereg rules on these
matters.  He can't fight them, even to defend himself,
because injured or dead Phoenix Guards will make the
remaining ones eager to shut down and harrass as many
Jhereg in the area as they can.  Usually the Jhereg
rules prevent criminals from trying to evade arrest
for crimes they've committed or have knowledge of;
they exist so their strategy can be one of bribery,
deception and courtly intrigue instead of war with the
authorities.



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From trevorsensei at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 24 13:45:07 2004
From: trevorsensei at yahoo.com (trevor laughlin)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:45:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: trying to unscribe
In-Reply-To: <m2k6vonxwt.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>
Message-ID: <20040824204507.4939.qmail@web13727.mail.yahoo.com>


--- David Dyer-Bennet <dd-b at dd-b.net> wrote:

> So, you two, what problem are you having?
> 
> Did you send the unsubscribe message from the email
> account you're
> subscribed through?  Did you receive the
> confirmation message?  Did
> you reply to the confirmation message?

when you join the Vlad mailing list, you receive a
confirmation/welcome message. in there, there is a
message which allows you to unsubscribe to a
yahoo.something email address. I have sent emails to
that.

...with the unsubribe in the subject line.
...with the unsubribe in the body.
...with the unsubribe in the subject in both.

 every time I send off to that specified yahoo addy, I
get a bounceback from the mail-daemon.

=====
~--------------------------~

^ Let your mind be your greatest tool. ^

   -        = Trevor Sensei =           -

        ~--------------------------~


		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 


From jhereg69 at earthlink.net  Tue Aug 24 13:56:50 2004
From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 16:56:50 -0400
Subject: trying to unscribe
In-Reply-To: <20040824204507.4939.qmail@web13727.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040824204507.4939.qmail@web13727.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <412BAB92.2090806@earthlink.net>

trevor laughlin wrote:

> --- David Dyer-Bennet <dd-b at dd-b.net> wrote:
> 
> 
>>So, you two, what problem are you having?
>>
>>Did you send the unsubscribe message from the email
>>account you're
>>subscribed through?  Did you receive the
>>confirmation message?  Did
>>you reply to the confirmation message?
> 
> 
> when you join the Vlad mailing list, you receive a
> confirmation/welcome message. in there, there is a
> message which allows you to unsubscribe to a
> yahoo.something email address. I have sent emails to
> that.
> 
> ...with the unsubribe in the subject line.
> ...with the unsubribe in the body.
> ...with the unsubribe in the subject in both.
> 
>  every time I send off to that specified yahoo addy, I
> get a bounceback from the mail-daemon.

That's interesting. As far as I know, this mailing has no connection 
whatsoever to Yahoo. My confirmation/welcome is admittedly old (from 
over two years ago), but I think it should still work: try sending a 
message to dragaera-unsubscribe at dragaera.info or 
dragaera-digest-unsubscribe at dragaera.info if you get the digest version 
of the list.

Jose
-- 
Jose Marquez            \  Cthulhu 2004
jhereg69 at hackwater.com   \  Why vote for
http://www.hackwater.com  \  the lesser evil?



From mtiller at ntlworld.com  Tue Aug 24 14:09:05 2004
From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 22:09:05 +0100
Subject: What does a jhereg nest look like?
In-Reply-To: <m2fz6cnxot.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>
Message-ID: <20040824210933.MRQE23525.mta07-svc.ntlworld.com@sweetdre123rzw>

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Dyer-Bennet [mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net] 
> Sent: 24 August 2004 20:28
> To: dragaera at dragaera.info
> Subject: Re: What does a jhereg nest look like?
dback.
> 
> Well *that's* pretty darned cool!  It even works with Shockwave in
> Opera. 
> 
> The initial pose *is* a bit startline, but the animation takes him
> into several much more reasonable positions.

Very cool,  works in Shockwave in Firefox too.

Cheers

Mark




From shannon3d at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 24 14:06:02 2004
From: shannon3d at yahoo.com (Shannon Wimberly)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:06:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Fwd: RE: What does a jhereg nest look like? 
Message-ID: <20040824210602.50607.qmail@web52001.mail.yahoo.com>

and if you do Vlad, make sure he has facial hair.  
Shan

paul w <skychild70 at hotmail.com> wrote:
From: "paul w" 
To: dragaera at dragaera.info
Subject: RE: What does a jhereg nest look like? 
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 16:52:11 +0000

Wow. That's harsh. Sigh... somehow I missed that fact, and have been using 
the covers as reference. ...Thanx... I think! ;]
-paul-

Jose wrote:

>Indeed. S. Hickman's cover art notwithstanding, Steve has confirmed many
>times that jhereg have two legs not four.

_________________________________________________________________
Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools and 
more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx


		
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.

From mam at TheWorld.com  Tue Aug 24 14:17:36 2004
From: mam at TheWorld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 17:17:36 -0400
Subject: Vlad and the Orb
In-Reply-To: <20040824195852.52592.qmail@web52108.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0408241638160.4723158-100000@shell01-g>

Nobody in this thread seems to have considered one important and very
unusual aspect of Vlad's experience under the Orb: He's an Easterner.
Phoenix, Dragonlord, Teckla, Jhereg... they're all Dragaerans, in the
normal line of business. Easterner citizens are probably a rarity. As
far as we know (as far as I can think of) there are only four or five
ways for an Easterner to be a citizen:

1. Swear fealty to a noble and join the Teckla as Miklos did in
Brokedown Palace.

2. Buy a title in the Jhereg as Vlad's father did.

3. Be declared a citizen by the Emperor/Empress as Laszlo was by Zerika
IV.

4. (Possibly) Defeat seventeen Dzur champions and win membership in the
Dzur as Mellar did.

5. Inherit citizenship that originated in one of the above ways.

We know that there are physiological differences between Dragaerans and
Easterners beyond the ones obvious to the eye
(http://www.cracksandshards.com/peoples.html#DvsE): Dragaerans

	live fifty times as long
	aren't nauseated by teleportation [Tlt18;Drg21]]
	don't conceive unintentionally [Yenxxx]
	have somewhat different metabolism [Jrg99]
	don't dread Morganti weapons [Drg32]

(I know some of these are somewhat debatable, but the point is that
there are physiological differences, which is no less than you would
expect from the known genetic differences.)

Now, is it inconceivable that all the procedures of interrogation and
jurisprudence, as well as the relevant "programming" of the Orb, are
based on the assumption that the person being interrogated is a
Dragaeran? Have we heard of *any* Easterner citizens -- nobles or Teckla
-- besides Vlad and his family? (Vlad, his father, Cawti [I assume --
I'm away from books right now], and Vlad Norathar.) I'm sure the Phoenix
Guards in Adrilankha question non-citizen Easterners, but I doubt that
they need or have or use any techniques more sophisticated than
intimidation, threats, and beatings, let alone the Orb.

If that is the case, then Vlad may have an easier time deceiving the Orb
than anyone else expects him to. He, of course, would chalk up his
success entirely to his mad skills.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   http://cracksandshards.com
   a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]




From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Tue Aug 24 15:27:37 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 15:27:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Vlad and the Orb
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0408241638160.4723158-100000@shell01-g>
References: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0408241638160.4723158-100000@shell01-g>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408241518370.22770@flora01.slac.stanford.edu>



On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Mark A Mandel wrote:

> Nobody in this thread seems to have considered one important and very
> unusual aspect of Vlad's experience under the Orb: He's an Easterner.


Fair point, and I don't have a good model for how the Orb checks veracity
(actually in my "Consciousness Explained"-influenced view of things I'm
not sure there is a precise veracity to check) so it's hard to quibble,
but note that Vlad never reports anything unusual about communicating
psychically with Dragaerans vs Easterners, and his other interactions
with the Orb are (afaik) normal.

Furthermore, if the Orb is bad at interrogating Easterners one might
think that the Jhereg would be aware of this fact and would take that
into account in hiring.  (Maybe they do, of course, which would be
interesting.)

Apropos, I have the impression that Vlad says it's impossible to lie
in psychic communication - if so, the whole question here might be moot.

Further note that Loraan (I think) has a name for preserving the thoughts
of the dying - such a technology might work on the living and provide a
good way of accessing info.


From Gaertk at aol.com  Tue Aug 24 17:28:05 2004
From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 20:28:05 -0400
Subject: Vlad and the Orb
Message-ID: <2CB2B166.6EBD098F.00048EA6@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/24/2004 6:27:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Philip Hart <philiph at slac.stanford.edu> writes:

> I don't have a good model for how the Orb checks veracity
> (actually in my "Consciousness Explained"-influenced view of 
> things I'm not sure there is a precise veracity to check) 

I'd love to see how the Orb reacts to someone saying:
"This statement is false."


--KG



From Gaertk at aol.com  Tue Aug 24 17:32:47 2004
From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 20:32:47 -0400
Subject: Vlad and the Orb
Message-ID: <752D9B6F.47A2C564.00048EA6@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/23/2004 1:34:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Casey Rousseau" <casey at the-bat.net> writes:

> I'd bet that the rules of evidence for interrogation under the 
> Orb are strict.  

In _Phoenix_, who're told that in order for the comments made by
Borealis(?) to be used as evidence, Vlad would have to testify
Under The Orb in front of the whole Court.


--KG



From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com  Tue Aug 24 21:14:39 2004
From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 00:14:39 EDT
Subject: What does a jhereg nest look like? 
Message-ID: <1f1.28b60e14.2e5d6c2f@aol.com>

Jose Marquez wrote on Aug 24, 2004

>Hmm. Doesn't Loiosh have 4 limbs (two legs, two wings) rather than 6 
>(two legs, two arms, two wings)?

Casey Rousseau wrote on Aug 24, 2004

>Indeed. S. Hickman's cover art notwithstanding, Steve has confirmed many
>times that jhereg have two legs not four.

paul w wrote on Aug 24, 2004 

> Sigh... somehow I missed that fact, and have been using 
> the covers as reference. ...Thanx... I think! ;]
>-paul-


Hi,

On Paul's wonderful animation of Loiosh (cover art version)  
and his comment on missing the fact that jhereg have only two legs:

The fact that Loiosh has only two legs and no arms is not in the
Vlad Taltos Novels or the Khaavren Romances or The Viscount of Adrilankha.  

I think I found out that fact by using dragaera search or reading
some articles on the Internet. 

Loiosh is a snake with bat wings.  The best description of how 
this might look is in The Book of Athyra Athyra page 104 "each wing 
when folded forms a perfect triangle" and "Yet seen from the front,
it looked like there was a snake's head bobbing up and down between
the walls of two houses that had been built too close together." 
I think the legs are not mentioned because they are blocked from 
view by the snake's head or snake's body.  

I still tend to visualize Loiosh as the cover art of the first
Steven Brust book I bought Jhereg. It is a great cover.  Would
I have bought a book with a snake with bat wings coming out of
an egg on the cover?

I think Vlad looks like Steven Brust.

I realized just recently that you do not capitalize the 
animal name (jhereg) and when you refer to the House you 
capitalize the word (House of Jhereg).  Now Howard Brazee's email 
on Aug. 10, 2004 responding to Paul W's email about a Jhereg's nest 
makes sense to me. 

Bye.

Linda G.

From dd-b at dd-b.net  Tue Aug 24 22:56:14 2004
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 00:56:14 -0500
Subject: trying to unscribe
In-Reply-To: <20040824204507.4939.qmail@web13727.mail.yahoo.com> (trevor
 laughlin's message of "Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:45:07 -0700 (PDT)")
References: <20040824204507.4939.qmail@web13727.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <m2fz6bkbgh.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>

trevor laughlin <trevorsensei at yahoo.com> writes:

> --- David Dyer-Bennet <dd-b at dd-b.net> wrote:
>
>> So, you two, what problem are you having?
>> 
>> Did you send the unsubscribe message from the email
>> account you're
>> subscribed through?  Did you receive the
>> confirmation message?  Did
>> you reply to the confirmation message?
>
> when you join the Vlad mailing list, you receive a
> confirmation/welcome message. in there, there is a
> message which allows you to unsubscribe to a
> yahoo.something email address. I have sent emails to
> that.

This list does not have and never has had any connection to Yahoo, and
there's never been a Yahoo address that works for subscribe or
unsubscribe requests.  I think you must have this confused with
another list, or perhaps be confused by some trailer that yahoo is
appending to copies of the messages you receive. 
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From usagigoya at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 24 23:18:21 2004
From: usagigoya at hotmail.com (Steve Hubbell)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 06:18:21 +0000
Subject: trying to unscribe
Message-ID: <BAY8-F759VzHVWo3q3i0004191c@hotmail.com>

>From: David Dyer-Bennet <dd-b at dd-b.net> To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: 
>Re: trying to unscribe Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 00:56:14 -0500
>
>trevor laughlin <trevorsensei at yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > --- David Dyer-Bennet <dd-b at dd-b.net> wrote: > >> So, you two, what 
>problem are you having? >> >> Did you send the unsubscribe message from the 
>email >> account you're >> subscribed through?  Did you receive the >> 
>confirmation message?  Did >> you reply to the confirmation message? > > 
>when you join the Vlad mailing list, you receive a > confirmation/welcome 
>message. in there, there is a > message which allows you to unsubscribe to 
>a > yahoo.something email address. I have sent emails to > that.
>
>This list does not have and never has had any connection to Yahoo, and 
>there's never been a Yahoo address that works for subscribe or unsubscribe 
>requests.  I think you must have this confused with another list, or 
>perhaps be confused by some trailer that yahoo is appending to copies of 
>the messages you receive. --
>David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>

Dragaera Mailing List:
To subscribe to the list, send email to <dragaera-subscribe at dragaera.info> 
and reply to the confirmation message you receive.

To unsubscribe from the list, send email to 
<dragaera-unsubscribe at dragaera.info> and reply to the confirmation message 
you receive.

Steven Brust Mailing List / Yahoo:
Post message: stevenbrust at yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: stevenbrust-subscribe at yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe: stevenbrust-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com

Post message: stevenbrust at yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: stevenbrust-subscribe at yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe: stevenbrust-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
List owner: stevenbrust-owner at yahoogroups.com




>From: David Dyer-Bennet <dd-b at dd-b.net> To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: 
>Re: trying to unscribe Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 00:56:14 -0500
>
>trevor laughlin <trevorsensei at yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > --- David Dyer-Bennet <dd-b at dd-b.net> wrote: > >> So, you two, what 
>problem are you having? >> >> Did you send the unsubscribe message from the 
>email >> account you're >> subscribed through?  Did you receive the >> 
>confirmation message?  Did >> you reply to the confirmation message? > > 
>when you join the Vlad mailing list, you receive a > confirmation/welcome 
>message. in there, there is a > message which allows you to unsubscribe to 
>a > yahoo.something email address. I have sent emails to > that.
>
>This list does not have and never has had any connection to Yahoo, and 
>there's never been a Yahoo address that works for subscribe or unsubscribe 
>requests.  I think you must have this confused with another list, or 
>perhaps be confused by some trailer that yahoo is appending to copies of 
>the messages you receive. --
>David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/> 
>RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/> Pics: 
><http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/> 
>Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>

_________________________________________________________________
Don?t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/



From paulw at videoideas.com  Wed Aug 25 07:30:06 2004
From: paulw at videoideas.com (paul)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:30:06 -0400
Subject: What does a jhereg nest look like? 
References: <1f1.28b60e14.2e5d6c2f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003a01c48ab0$04ab0310$6e01a8c0@Paul>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <FRIEDA2133 at aol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 12:14 AM
> Loiosh is a snake with bat wings.  The best description of how
> this might look is in The Book of Athyra Athyra page 104 "each wing
> when folded forms a perfect triangle" and "Yet seen from the front,
> it looked like there was a snake's head bobbing up and down between
> the walls of two houses that had been built too close together."
> I think the legs are not mentioned because they are blocked from
> view by the snake's head or snake's body.

You all are great. Thanks for letting me know about it's functionality in
various browsers (along with everything else). I read Jhereg back in high
school soon after it came out, and for me, Loiosh will (probably forever) be
that creature on the cover. I also referenced the description in Athyra, and
just assumed the legs were occluded from view at that moment. Since it would
set me back by weeks to re-construct this, I'm going to pretend he has 4
legs for the moment. I've got so many more assets to build still, that I
don't want to jeopardize my momentum. I too thought Vlad should in some ways
resemble Steven Brust, although the only picture I've seen of the man is on
the Dreamcafe. Also, since this is all low poly, if it resembles a person at
all, I'll be tickled pink. It's one thing to build a Jhereg that no one has
actually seen before, it's another to build a convincing human.

>and if you do Vlad, make sure he has facial hair.

Shannon, I'm thinking this will be the 16 year old Vlad, so the facial hair
might not be so evident quite yet. On this topic, I'm about to start
dressing Vlad and wondered if anyone cared to weigh-in on the style of a 16
year old human who has prepared for a hike through the jungle. I figured
that the dress of these books is based on the 3 musketeers to some degree.
It seems to be a common interest to Brust. Also, at that point in Vlad's
life, he was poor and without his trusty rapier yet. I thought something
with a little gypsy-ish fashion might add an interesting look to him. If you
find any picture or photo references to clothes that might be used as
reference, please send them my way. Thanx again everyone!
-paul-




From dd-b at dd-b.net  Wed Aug 25 09:50:47 2004
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:50:47 -0500
Subject: What does a jhereg nest look like?
In-Reply-To: <003a01c48ab0$04ab0310$6e01a8c0@Paul> (paulw@videoideas.com's
 message of "Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:30:06 -0400")
References: <1f1.28b60e14.2e5d6c2f@aol.com>
	<003a01c48ab0$04ab0310$6e01a8c0@Paul>
Message-ID: <m2y8k3go0o.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>

"paul" <paulw at videoideas.com> writes:

> I've got so many more assets to build still, that I don't want to
> jeopardize my momentum. I too thought Vlad should in some ways
> resemble Steven Brust, although the only picture I've seen of the
> man is on the Dreamcafe. Also, since this is all low poly, if it
> resembles a person at all, I'll be tickled pink. It's one thing to
> build a Jhereg that no one has actually seen before, it's another to
> build a convincing human.

All you really need to do is model the *hat* properly :-). 

(Sorry about some of the long URLs!)

<http://www.jointhesaga.com/otherviews/brust.htm>
<http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue224/brust1.jpg>
<http://www.plokta.com/plokta/issue8/image11.jpg>
<http://www.dd-b.net/perl/picpage.pl/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/2001/01050-Steven's%20Party?id=Ep850-20010105-022>
<http://www.dd-b.net/perl/picpage.pl/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/2001/01050-Steven's%20Party?id=Ep850-20010106-070>
<http://www.dd-b.net/perl/picpage.pl/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/2001/01050-Steven's%20Party?id=Ep850-20010106-061>
<http://www.dd-b.net/perl/picpage/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/2004/04090-Minicon-39/04090-Friday?id=ddb%2020040409%20010-003>
<http://walden.mvp.net/~eriko/minicon/brustandben.jpg>
<http://www.dd-b.net/perl/picpage.pl/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/2001/01050-Steven's%20Party?id=Ep850-20010105-003>


>>and if you do Vlad, make sure he has facial hair.
>
> Shannon, I'm thinking this will be the 16 year old Vlad, so the facial hair
> might not be so evident quite yet. On this topic, I'm about to start
> dressing Vlad and wondered if anyone cared to weigh-in on the style of a 16
> year old human who has prepared for a hike through the jungle. I figured
> that the dress of these books is based on the 3 musketeers to some degree.
> It seems to be a common interest to Brust. Also, at that point in Vlad's
> life, he was poor and without his trusty rapier yet. I thought something
> with a little gypsy-ish fashion might add an interesting look to him. If you
> find any picture or photo references to clothes that might be used as
> reference, please send them my way. Thanx again everyone!

Oh, well, you'd better refer to these, too, then:

<http://www.dd-b.net/perl/picpage.pl/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/1969-70?id=ddb-35-24a>
<http://www.dd-b.net/perl/picpage.pl/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/1969-70?id=ddb-35-25a>
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From davids at Kithrup.COM  Wed Aug 25 11:54:09 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:54:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: What does a jhereg nest look like?
In-Reply-To: <m2y8k3go0o.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040825113821.16578A-100000@kithrup.com>

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

>
>All you really need to do is model the *hat* properly :-). 
>

But does Vlad wear a hat?  He's never mentioned wearing one, [1]
and in addition, it would interfere with his thing of running his
hand through his hair. 

Although he could store nasty little tools and widgets for
inflicting damage on people in a hat if he had one.

Steve's hat, of course, has major mojo.

________________

[1] Searching on "hat" on dragaera.info booksearch brought up no 
hits from the Vladiad.  To the left, though, it did find the
following amusing exchange from /The Phoenix Guards/:

   "There are bear in these mountains."
     "Bear do not wear hats."
   "What? It was wearing a hat?"
     "I am all but certain of it"
   "Then perhaps it was a man." 



From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Wed Aug 25 11:58:56 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:58:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: What does a jhereg nest look like?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040825113821.16578A-100000@kithrup.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040825113821.16578A-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408251155370.29439@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>



On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, David Silberstein wrote:

> On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>
> >
> >All you really need to do is model the *hat* properly :-).
> >
>
> But does Vlad wear a hat?  He's never mentioned wearing one, [1]
> and in addition, it would interfere with his thing of running his
> hand through his hair.

Doesn't he wear a cap in _Dragon_?  And fail to mention missing his hat?
And not make any comment about keeping off the rain during marching?

Note that Khaavren wears a hat at the beginning of _TPG_ - rather, he wore
one just before his entrance, but the wind took it - but I don't know if
Paarfi ever mentions it again...


From mam at TheWorld.com  Wed Aug 25 11:18:11 2004
From: mam at TheWorld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:18:11 -0400
Subject: What does a jhereg nest look like? 
In-Reply-To: <1f1.28b60e14.2e5d6c2f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0408251409140.4748055-100000@shell01-g>

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote:

#On Paul's wonderful animation of Loiosh (cover art version)

Which I haven't been able to get to work for me. :-(

#and his comment on missing the fact that jhereg have only two legs:
#
#The fact that Loiosh has only two legs and no arms is not in the
#Vlad Taltos Novels or the Khaavren Romances or The Viscount of Adrilankha.

Steve said it or wrote it to somebody and it was posted on this list or
a predecessor of this list. But it does not appear anywhere in canonical
text.

#I think I found out that fact by using dragaera search or reading
#some articles on the Internet.
#
#Loiosh is a snake with bat wings.

AND TWO LEGS. We have plenty of description of Loiosh holding onto
Vlad's shoulder, tightening his claws to remind Vlad of something,
daintily picking up a piece of food with one foot and carrying it to his
mouth, and so on.

#I think Vlad looks like Steven Brust.

You're not the only one.

#I realized just recently that you do not capitalize the
#animal name (jhereg) and when you refer to the House you
#capitalize the word (House of Jhereg).  Now Howard Brazee's email
#on Aug. 10, 2004 responding to Paul W's email about a Jhereg's nest
#makes sense to me.

In Dragon, at least in the first hardcover edition, there was a major
editing blunder: somebody, somewhere along the line, saw "Dragon" and
"Jhereg" and decided that ALL occurrences of those words should be
capitalized, and did it. VERY confusing to us longtime Brust fans.


-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

-- Mark A. Mandel
   http://cracksandshards.com
   a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website




From howard at brazee.net  Wed Aug 25 16:04:55 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 17:04:55 -0600
Subject: What does a jhereg nest look like?
In-Reply-To: <m2y8k3go0o.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>
Message-ID: <000501c48af7$f095c980$b07ba8c0@Dad133>

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> "paul" <paulw at videoideas.com> writes:
>
>> I've got so many more assets to build still, that I don't want to
>> jeopardize my momentum. I too thought Vlad should in some ways
>> resemble Steven Brust, although the only picture I've seen of the
>> man is on the Dreamcafe. Also, since this is all low poly, if it
>> resembles a person at all, I'll be tickled pink. It's one thing to
>> build a Jhereg that no one has actually seen before, it's another to
>> build a convincing human.
>
> All you really need to do is model the *hat* properly :-).

The only times I've seen Steve, his hat precluded a jhreg (or two) from
fitting on his shoulder.  I wonder if jhregs like tobacco.




From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com  Thu Aug 26 05:06:32 2004
From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 08:06:32 EDT
Subject: What does a jhereg nest look like?
Message-ID: <155.3d39f447.2e5f2c48@aol.com>

paul wrote on August 25, 2004


>Vlad and wondered if anyone cared to weigh-in on the style of a 16
>year old human who has prepared for a hike through the jungle. I figured
>that the dress of these books is based on the 3 musketeers to some degree.
>It seems to be a common interest to Brust. Also, at that point in Vlad's
>life, he was poor and without his trusty rapier yet. I thought something
>with a little gypsy-ish fashion might add an interesting look to him. 

Hi,

Don't leave out the rapier and a grey half cloak. Steven Brust likes rapiers
and cloaks. See Paths of the Dead paperback page 396.  

 Vlad had a (not very good rapier) before he sold the restaurant and
before he got the egg.  I think it may have been a gift from his grandfather 
so Vlad could practice fencing years before. I do not think he would have 
gone into the jungle without it.  See Book of Taltos, Taltos page 58 for 
a description of this rapier that Vlad started wearing in public when he
was almost 16.  The blade Vlad had made on page 9 Jhereg was bought with
proceeds from the sale of the restaurant.  

Paul, do you have to reconstruct your animation of Loiosh?  Can't you
have two versions?  1. Loiosh Cover Art Version.  2. The real Loiosh
with snake head, snake body, two bat wings and two legs.  

On Paul's wonderful animation of Loiosh (cover art version)
Mark A. Mandel wrote on August 25, 2004

#Which I haven't been able to get to work for me. :-(

Mark, I think Paul would like to know more detail about how it did
not work in order to try to figure out why.  You might want to
email back and forth to Paul.  And then tell us if it ever started
working.  

Back to Vlad's clothes:
Vlad's father was dead for two years before Vlad went into the jungle.
Vlad's grandfather could have given him some gypsy-ish clothes for his
birthdays.  After his father died, Vlad could have decided to dress
as an Easterner in honor of his grandfather, but if he did it is not
mentioned in the text.  See Book of Taltos, Phoenix page 386 for a 
description of Vlad "For the first time in my adult life, I was looking 
like an Easterner."  Therefore, he did look like an Easterner sometime
when he was young, but that could have just been before his father got
him the Jhereg outfits. Since Vlad and his family were poor, it 
does not seem like he would have two whole sets of clothes-one Jhereg
grey and black and another Easterner set. I am thinking mostly grey 
and black Jhereg outfit for the spell in the jungle.  With the idea of
birthday gifts from Vlad's grandfather accounting for a little more color.  

We know somewhat what type of clothes he had around the time of 
the spell in the jungle.      

Page Taltos 72 for a description of Vlad's old half-cloak 
Jhereg-grey and boots.  Page 10 Vlad was 5 and was beaten up by Orca
for having boots of Eastern style.  His father page 20 gave Vlad an
Jhereg outfit when he was 8.  Vlad's father probably kept getting 
Vlad grey and black outfits until he died when Vlad was 14. No mention
of what came with an outfit (like boots or not).  
      
In The Book of the Jhereg, Jhereg page 5.  Vlad "ignored the 
scratches on my face and arms from the foliage." I think no hat and 
no full length sleeves when Vlad went into the jungle. 

After Loiosh hatched and Vlad first worked for the Jhereg, he 
ordered a new jerkin and a full length cloak, Taltos page 92. Vlad
also "lusted after a hat with a tall plume, but didn't get it".  
Therefore he had a jerkin before.  Dictionary says a jerkin is a 
sleeveless jacket. He had a half cloak before. No mention of 
replacing or wanting a new hat and no hat bought on page 92.   

Vlad wears pants not hose.  I thought Vlad had a backpack on page 5
of Jhereg, but it says "I hitched the pack on my back".  I do not
think he wore a backpack until Dragon.

Bye.

Linda G.

From howard at brazee.net  Thu Aug 26 05:37:28 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 06:37:28 -0600
Subject: What does a jhereg nest look like?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408251155370.29439@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040825113821.16578A-100000@kithrup.com> <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408251155370.29439@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <opsdcaoq0mmng2fm@emerald.he.net>

If Vlad wore the types of hats that Steve favors, there might not be much  
room for a jhereg (or two) on his shoulders.



-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/


From Bato001 at aol.com  Thu Aug 26 12:51:34 2004
From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:51:34 EDT
Subject: trying to unscribe
Message-ID: <8d.135db5d5.2e5f9946@aol.com>

In a message dated 08/25/2004 2:19:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
usagigoya at hotmail.com writes:
From: David Dyer-Bennet <dd-b at dd-b.net> To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: 
>Re: trying to unscribe Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 00:56:14 -0500
>
>trevor laughlin <trevorsensei at yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > --- David Dyer-Bennet <dd-b at dd-b.net> wrote: > >> So, you two, what 
>problem are you having? >> >> Did you send the unsubscribe message from the 
>email >> account you're >> subscribed through?  Did you receive the >> 
>confirmation message?  Did >> you reply to the confirmation message? > > 
>when you join the Vlad mailing list, you receive a > confirmation/welcome 
>message. in there, there is a > message which allows you to unsubscribe to 
>a > yahoo.something email address. I have sent emails to > that.
>
>This list does not have and never has had any connection to Yahoo, and 
>there's never been a Yahoo address that works for subscribe or unsubscribe 
>requests.  I think you must have this confused with another list, or 
>perhaps be confused by some trailer that yahoo is appending to copies of 
>the messages you receive. --
>David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>

Dragaera Mailing List:
To subscribe to the list, send email to <dragaera-subscribe at dragaera.info> 
and reply to the confirmation message you receive.

To unsubscribe from the list, send email to 
<dragaera-unsubscribe at dragaera.info> and reply to the confirmation message 
you receive.

Steven Brust Mailing List / Yahoo:
Post message: stevenbrust at yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: stevenbrust-subscribe at yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe: stevenbrust-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com

Post message: stevenbrust at yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: stevenbrust-subscribe at yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe: stevenbrust-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
List owner: stevenbrust-owner at yahoogroups.com




>From: David Dyer-Bennet <dd-b at dd-b.net> To: dragaera at dragaera.info Subject: 
>Re: trying to unscribe Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 00:56:14 -0500
>
>trevor laughlin <trevorsensei at yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > --- David Dyer-Bennet <dd-b at dd-b.net> wrote: > >> So, you two, what 
>problem are you having? >> >> Did you send the unsubscribe message from the 
>email >> account you're >> subscribed through?  Did you receive the >> 
>confirmation message?  Did >> you reply to the confirmation message? > > 
>when you join the Vlad mailing list, you receive a > confirmation/welcome 
>message. in there, there is a > message which allows you to unsubscribe to 
>a > yahoo.something email address. I have sent emails to > that.
>
>This list does not have and never has had any connection to Yahoo, and 
>there's never been a Yahoo address that works for subscribe or unsubscribe 
>requests.  I think you must have this confused with another list, or 
>perhaps be confused by some trailer that yahoo is appending to copies of 
>the messages you receive. --
>David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/> 
>RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/> Pics: 
><http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/> 
>Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>

_________________________________________________________________
Don?t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
that is strange. I have unsubscribed and resubscribed due to changing my 
e-mail address and never seen that message.

John D. Barbato, OD

From Gaertk at aol.com  Thu Aug 26 13:25:06 2004
From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:25:06 -0400
Subject: What does a jhereg nest look like?
Message-ID: <47D81C2B.6FBE0A39.00048EA6@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/25/2004 2:54:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, David Silberstein <davids at Kithrup.COM> writes:

> [1] Searching on "hat" on dragaera.info booksearch brought up 
> no hits from the Vladiad.  To the left, though, it did find 
> the following amusing exchange from /The Phoenix Guards/:
>
>   "There are bear in these mountains."
>     "Bear do not wear hats."
>   "What? It was wearing a hat?"
>     "I am all but certain of it"
>   "Then perhaps it was a man." 

I wonder if this is an allusion to "The Great Muppet Caper":
"Look Dad, a bear!"
"No son, that's a frog.  Bears have hats."


--KG



From antuhej at hotmail.com  Fri Aug 27 03:48:56 2004
From: antuhej at hotmail.com (Henrik Jonsson)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 12:48:56 +0200
Subject: New to the list...(Impressions after re-reading it all)
Message-ID: <BAY8-DAV33TYSl1q4gt00014fa9@hotmail.com>


*check one, check one-two* Is this thing on?

Anyway, hello everyone! I'm a long time fan of Brust's
Dragaera work and I've just reread the whole series of
books. I stumbled over one incident, maybe it's in the
FAQ, or the time line somewhere, but...

Upon re-reading "The Viscount...", I read about how Aerich
went to visit Tazendra, whom had been out of contact for a while, 
only to discover that the surroundings of her mansion had
been devastated through fire or sorcery, and there was a
Teckla answering the door for Aerich, saying that "I am Master
here", etc.

This struck me as something I had read earlier, but I could
not for the life of me find it. Was it someone that Vlad 
encountered, a Teckla who told his story of how a huge fire
had devastated his farm, he hid in a small outhouse and 
survived, and when he went to investigate, he found that all
the farms around him had been destroyed. I do believe he 
stayed at his Lord's mansion and was later chased around the 
mansion by a lone lord coming to look for the Master of the house?

Anyone know what I'm talking about? :-)

/Henrik

*hopes that this message reaches the list safe and sound*





From aejoubert at hotmail.com  Fri Aug 27 04:31:16 2004
From: aejoubert at hotmail.com (Andrew Joubert)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 06:31:16 -0500
Subject: New to the list...(Impressions after re-reading it all)
Message-ID: <BAY1-F11wkLMKpv3EDF000277b5@hotmail.com>

Hi!  I'm new to the list too, and I caught the same thing on a recent reread 
of the series.

The Tecka in question is Paresh, and the book is _Teckla_.
Page 31 of my paperback has the story, including the line:
"Inform your master that the Duke of Arylle will see him"

Which I'll just take as evidence that when you write a score of books over a 
couple of decades, you have a few contradictions, and not proof Tazendra is 
a transvestite .  :)

--Andrew


>*check one, check one-two* Is this thing on?
>
>Anyway, hello everyone! I'm a long time fan of Brust's
>Dragaera work and I've just reread the whole series of
>books. I stumbled over one incident, maybe it's in the
>FAQ, or the time line somewhere, but...
>
>Upon re-reading "The Viscount...", I read about how Aerich
>went to visit Tazendra, whom had been out of contact for a while, only to 
>discover that the surroundings of her mansion had
>been devastated through fire or sorcery, and there was a
>Teckla answering the door for Aerich, saying that "I am Master
>here", etc.
>
>This struck me as something I had read earlier, but I could
>not for the life of me find it. Was it someone that Vlad encountered, a 
>Teckla who told his story of how a huge fire
>had devastated his farm, he hid in a small outhouse and survived, and when 
>he went to investigate, he found that all
>the farms around him had been destroyed. I do believe he stayed at his 
>Lord's mansion and was later chased around the mansion by a lone lord 
>coming to look for the Master of the house?
>
>Anyone know what I'm talking about? :-)
>
>/Henrik
>
>*hopes that this message reaches the list safe and sound*
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Don?t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/



From zarkon at illrepute.org  Fri Aug 27 06:07:33 2004
From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:07:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: New to the list...(Impressions after re-reading it all)
In-Reply-To: <BAY1-F11wkLMKpv3EDF000277b5@hotmail.com>
References: <BAY1-F11wkLMKpv3EDF000277b5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408270855570.14994@ueno.bdi.com>

Just a note to both of you: discussions of the plot of the latest book or
two, and particularly discussions including large revelations of that
nature, should have some space between the top of the message and the
actual revelation to prevent unsuspecting list-readers who haven't gotten
the book yet from hearing about plot details they don't want to know
about. These are commonly called spoilers, and the space used to obscure
them is called spoiler space. (In fact, it is frequently a good idea to
protect certain large-scale spoilers forever until the end of time,
although opinions on this differ. Of course, everybody who disagrees with
me is wrong.)

Spoiler space looks like this:



Spoilers for Sethra Lavode...
(Important! Mention which book you're spoiling. Just saying "Spoiler
 space" is not a lot of help unless everyone has read everything in the
 whole world.)





















On Fri, 27 Aug 2004, Andrew Joubert wrote:

@> Hi!  I'm new to the list too, and I caught the same thing on a recent
@> reread of the series.
@>
@> The Tecka in question is Paresh, and the book is _Teckla_.
@> Page 31 of my paperback has the story, including the line:
@> "Inform your master that the Duke of Arylle will see him"
@>
@> Which I'll just take as evidence that when you write a score of books over a
@> couple of decades, you have a few contradictions, and not proof Tazendra is
@> a transvestite .  :)

Actually, there was some discussion on the list a bit back about which
account was more accurate, for whatever value of the word is appropriate.
While it might be the case that Brust wrote the original without intending
it to be Tazendra and Aerich, it is definitely the case that he had access
to the original version when he wrote the other one, so inconsistencies
like this are more likely to be things we're supposed to think about than
simple errors. (Although the possibility of errors does exist.) And the
gender of the master is hardly the worst inconsistency involved,
particularly since we know Draegaran has a gender-neutral pronoun set.


From jhereg69 at earthlink.net  Fri Aug 27 08:11:47 2004
From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 11:11:47 -0400
Subject: New to the list...(Impressions after re-reading it all)
In-Reply-To: <BAY1-F11wkLMKpv3EDF000277b5@hotmail.com>
References: <BAY1-F11wkLMKpv3EDF000277b5@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <412F4F33.1050903@earthlink.net>

Andrew Joubert wrote:
> Hi!  I'm new to the list too, and I caught the same thing on a recent 
> reread of the series.
> 
> The Tecka in question is Paresh, and the book is _Teckla_.
> Page 31 of my paperback has the story, including the line:
> "Inform your master that the Duke of Arylle will see him"
> 
> Which I'll just take as evidence that when you write a score of books 
> over a couple of decades, you have a few contradictions, and not proof 
> Tazendra is a transvestite .  :)

At one point in Steve's acknowledgments for Paths of the Dead, he 
expresses his gratitude in particular to Mark Mandel (who's also on this 
list; waves to Mark) and his Cracks and Shards web site 
(cracksandshards.com) for allowing him to "maliciously" introduce 
inconsistencies between Viscount* and his other Dragaera books. I 
believe the incident you refer to above and other incidents involving 
Morrolan's whereabouts are examples of the malicious inconsistencies 
that stem from having liars as the narrators of the books. Or if not 
liars, then unreliable narrators.

*I choose to see those acknowledgments as encompassing the three books 
that make up Viscount, but I could be wrong.

Oh, and welcome to the list, both of you!

Jose
-- 
Jose Marquez            \  Cthulhu 2004
jhereg69 at hackwater.com   \  Why vote for
http://www.hackwater.com  \  the lesser evil?



From davids at Kithrup.COM  Fri Aug 27 08:50:40 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 08:50:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Morrolan at Blood River
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040827084625.28712A-100000@kithrup.com>

Note that the following contains a huge spoiler for /Sethra
Lavode/.  Indeed, it builds on the pararectal idea first expanded
upon in the post archived here (which also contains spoilers,
obviously): 

   http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1:mss:14154

So it might be pararectal *squared* (pararectangular?).






In /Taltos/, before Morrolan & Vlad actually make their descent
over the Falls and into the Paths, Morrolan becomes distracted by
the statue of a dzur, obviously representing House Dzur.  When Vlad
comes over to wonder why Morrolan is so fascinated by it, Morrolan
explains that it is where those members of House Dzur are put in
the River to go over the Falls.  Vlad, still not getting why this
holds so much interest for Morrolan, asks if he knows anyone who
came this way.  Morrolan replies "Sethra", and refuses to elaborate
when Vlad says, somewhat confused, that he thought she was a
Dragon. 

Up until now, speculation about this scene has tended to revolve
around (a) the possibility that Sethra is of mixed Houses, but that
since she's Sethra, and indeed *predates* the Houses, no-one makes
an issue of it, or (b) Sethra was made an honorary Dzur by House
Dzur by virtue of having defeated 17, and probably far more than
17, Dzur Heroes, and when she was killed the first time (before
coming back as undead), she was honored as a Dzur Hero might well
be (perhaps by the Dzur who killed her?  Who can say?). 

Yet one has to wonder:  Would Sethra have divulged the events
surrounding her death to anyone?  She is, after all, a very private
individual, and does not seem to be disposed to confiding deeply
private matters even to her friends.  Of course, it is possible
that Morrolan learned of Sethra's death from someone else.  His
refusal to elaborate might suggest that he realized that he had
been slightly indiscreet and that Sethra would probably prefer that
such matters not be discussed. 

However, I was thinking about that scene in the context of my
earlier idea, namely, that Morrolan bears Tazendra's staff, and has
access to Tazendra's memories.  So what he might have been about to
say was "Sethra had a friend and student named Tazendra Lavode, who
was given to the Falls here", but then realized that this was a
matter that *he* did not want to discuss at all with this Easterner
and Jhereg that he only barely knew, and cut himself off, and
stopped talking about it.

Vlad, of course, would have no idea as to this backstory.



From howard at brazee.net  Fri Aug 27 09:35:07 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:35:07 -0600
Subject: New to the list...(Impressions after re-reading it all)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408270855570.14994@ueno.bdi.com>
References: <BAY1-F11wkLMKpv3EDF000277b5@hotmail.com> <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408270855570.14994@ueno.bdi.com>
Message-ID: <opsdegctb8mng2fm@emerald.he.net>

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:07:33 -0400 (EDT), John Klein  
<zarkon at illrepute.org> wrote:

> book or
> two, and particularly discussions including large revelations of that
> nature, should have some space between the top of the message and the
> actual revelation to prevent unsuspecting list-readers who haven't
> gotten


Latest book or two?   For people in a Dragaeran list server?   I propose a  
modification on this recommendation.

The latest Dragaeran book requires a spoiler until a month after the  
paperback version of the book is released.    Other Brust books maybe  
require 6 months.

In a forum such as rec.arts.sf.written, put a spoiler on anything less  
than a year old, or when a spoiler really is a spoiler.

Anybody subscribing to a dragaeran list-server has to expect discussion of  
the latest book.

-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/


From aejoubert at hotmail.com  Fri Aug 27 11:18:23 2004
From: aejoubert at hotmail.com (Andrew Joubert)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:18:23 -0500
Subject: New to the list...(Impressions after re-reading it all)
Message-ID: <BAY1-F33a8d9Ee4zadT0002ab26@hotmail.com>


>Just a note to both of you:
<snip>
>These are commonly called spoilers, and the space used to obscure
>them is called spoiler space.

I hope we didn't spoil anything in our brief conversation.  I have, of 
course, been lurking on the list for several weeks before posting, as 
netiquette dictates, and I've been very glad that spoilers for are marked, 
as I'm waiting a bit before getting _Sethra Lavode_ (in a impressive show of 
personal restraint).

>And the
>gender of the master is hardly the worst inconsistency involved,
>particularly since we know Draegaran has a gender-neutral pronoun set.

True enough, my original post was meant entirely in jest, with Tazendra's 
reaction to being called a transvestive in the back of my mind.  I suspect 
it would be a short but bloody affair.

I personally feel that in addition to adding to the personality of the 
narrators, "malicious inconsistencies" also make a nice excuse that the 
author can use to keep from getting too hung up in previous books and 
instead concentrate on the important part, generating new material.

Besides, people who post on the internet about a single pronoun obviously 
have too much time on their hands.  :)

--Andrew

_________________________________________________________________
Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools and 
more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx



From paulw at videoideas.com  Fri Aug 27 22:16:59 2004
From: paulw at videoideas.com (paulw at videoideas.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 01:16:59 -0400
Subject: What do you think of this?
Message-ID: <fe1e65b74c394a099f2b85cf6f2e7e41.paulw@videoideas.com>

Hello again. I'm really glad I posted the link to Loiosh for everyone. It was painful but the sum of it resulted in a big breath for the work ahead. Thanks for that.

About the legs, I seriously hope this doesn't turn anyone away, but I'm going to stick with 4 legs, two wings, for now. The idea of animating a quadruped with wings is far too cool to pass up! We all build a mental movie as we discover these stories, and for many many years this has been Loiosh to me. A character more brilliant than any R2D2. There is a huge amount of work involved to remove the front two legs and make a second version. It is not out of the question but I'm going to finish the immediate plans first.

What do you think of this? The spell that Vlad casts to make a familiar of a jhereg, is specific to jheregs. Any restrictions about posting the text of books? This from _Jhereg_ when Vlad casts the spell:
"Jhereg! Do not pass me by!"
"Show me where thy soul doth lie!"

The spell text suggests that there are many versions of the "witchcraft familiar" spell, since Noishpa has a cat. Hope this hasn't been covered before.

As I finished the body model of Vlad, he went through a phase of being naked (couldn't work on that at the office!) I had to fight with myself to keep from posting that stage. It's just funny on so many levels, being that everyone agreed that Vlad should look like Brust. Below is the "clothed for modesty" version. No need to tell me this or that pixel is off, his arms are too long, or that his "clothes" aren't right. I know this, it's *very* early still. Bear in mind that I'm simply ecstatic to have made a model that could pass for (a real) human. I knew I could, I just didn't think it would go so fast.

My plans include a vest/jerkin, similar in shape to the tank-top he has on, but obviously with sweet textures. A short sleeved shirt underneath. I'm getting hot about giving him a doo-rag with a nice little knot in back, something to insinuate a gypsy/pirate, but only only a hint. This is for the jungle specifically, so it seems like something he might have put on for the big step in witchcraft. As suggested, perhaps a gift from grandpa. How far down does a half-cloak go? Anyone remember jewelry? A rapier (but non clothing props come later). Hey Linda G. My version of _Taltos_ printed in 1988, doesn't seem to coincide with your pages. I'll take your word on that stuff.

http://www.stuffycorporatedesign.com/misc/vladviewer.htm
If you are ever looking for one of these links, just go to the 404 page (insert anything after the .com/) and hit the "Shockwave work in progress" link.

-paul-



From antuhej at hotmail.com  Sat Aug 28 02:02:28 2004
From: antuhej at hotmail.com (Henrik Jonsson)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:02:28 +0200
Subject: New to the list...(Impressions after re-reading it all)
References: <BAY1-F11wkLMKpv3EDF000277b5@hotmail.com> <Pine.LNX.4.58.0408270855570.14994@ueno.bdi.com>
Message-ID: <BAY8-DAV56qkAvfd75K0000e06e@hotmail.com>

From: "John Klein" <zarkon at illrepute.org>

> Spoiler space looks like this:

You're absolutely right. My most humble apologies. Further discussion
below. Read on for continuing spoilers for Sethra Lavode...
 
> 
> 
> Spoilers for Sethra Lavode...
> (Important! Mention which book you're spoiling. Just saying "Spoiler
>  space" is not a lot of help unless everyone has read everything in the
>  whole world.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, 27 Aug 2004, Andrew Joubert wrote:
> And the gender of the master is hardly the worst inconsistency involved,
> particularly since we know Draegaran has a gender-neutral pronoun set.

How about if the Dragaeran language requires the use of the personal 
pronoun "gya" (or whatever it was, denoting "undetermined gender") in 
a phrase such as this?  

That way, Steven Brust would still come out looking good, given that 
he just followed his personal rule to translate "gya" with "him" and 
not "him/her", etc.

How's that for a cop out? ;-)

/Henrik


From antuhej at hotmail.com  Sat Aug 28 02:57:21 2004
From: antuhej at hotmail.com (Henrik Jonsson)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 11:57:21 +0200
Subject: Morrolan at Blood River
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040827084625.28712A-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <BAY8-DAV26LDiKBsuZ200010033@hotmail.com>

From: "David Silberstein" <davids at Kithrup.COM>

> Note that the following contains a huge spoiler for /Sethra
> Lavode/.  


Spoiler space...for Sethra Lavode.

















> However, I was thinking about that scene in the context of my
> earlier idea, namely, that Morrolan bears Tazendra's staff, and has
> access to Tazendra's memories.  So what he might have been about to
> say was "Sethra had a friend and student named Tazendra Lavode, who
> was given to the Falls here", 

Hmm..How did Tazendra's memories of her own funeral end up in the
staff? Even with a friendly bend-and-half-twist of the imagination,
one is hard pressed to admit that a dead person's memories of ones
own funeral are somewhat hazy, to say the least. ;-)

Nice idea, though, with Tazendra's staff in Morollan's possession. 

/Henrik


From howard at brazee.net  Sat Aug 28 06:15:24 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 07:15:24 -0600
Subject: What do you think of this?
In-Reply-To: <fe1e65b74c394a099f2b85cf6f2e7e41.paulw@videoideas.com>
Message-ID: <000001c48d01$14eda9a0$b07ba8c0@Dad133>

paulw at videoideas.com wrote:

> As I finished the body model of Vlad, he went through a phase of
> being naked (couldn't work on that at the office!) I had to fight
> with myself to keep from posting that stage. It's just funny on so
> many levels, being that everyone agreed that Vlad should look like
> Brust.

The links of a young Brust working at his old IBM shop remind me that so far
we have seen quite a few years of Taltos' life.   It takes time to build up
an organization.   We have second hand knowledge of his childhood.   His
time as a fugitive must be an aging thing, as is time as a soldier.

We don't know how much there is to come (in aging terms).

But it would be real neat to have an album showing his progression -
including a picture of him as a child at the knees of his grandfather,
learning wisdom.   Maybe a wet-behind-the-ears young adult meeting Morrolan.
A teen talking to a young thief as his father is standing behind with a
broom wanting him to work.    He did shave at one point and disguise his
height.   He has grown and changed - someday I would like to see good
illustrations that showed that.




From howard at brazee.net  Sat Aug 28 06:17:32 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 07:17:32 -0600
Subject: Morrolan at Blood River
In-Reply-To: <BAY8-DAV26LDiKBsuZ200010033@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000101c48d01$61301000$b07ba8c0@Dad133>

Henrik Jonsson wrote:
> From: "David Silberstein" <davids at Kithrup.COM>
> 
> Hmm..How did Tazendra's memories of her own funeral end up in the
> staff? Even with a friendly bend-and-half-twist of the imagination,
> one is hard pressed to admit that a dead person's memories of ones
> own funeral are somewhat hazy, to say the least. ;-)

Maybe this wasn't her memory, but the staff's memory.



From davids at Kithrup.COM  Sat Aug 28 09:56:45 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 09:56:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Morrolan at Blood River
In-Reply-To: <BAY8-DAV26LDiKBsuZ200010033@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040828093907.9371B-100000@kithrup.com>

On Sat, 28 Aug 2004, Henrik Jonsson wrote:

>From: "David Silberstein" <davids at Kithrup.COM>
>
>> Note that the following contains a huge spoiler for /Sethra
>> Lavode/.  
>
>
>Spoiler space...for Sethra Lavode.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> However, I was thinking about that scene in the context of my
>> earlier idea, namely, that Morrolan bears Tazendra's staff, and has
>> access to Tazendra's memories.  So what he might have been about to
>> say was "Sethra had a friend and student named Tazendra Lavode, who
>> was given to the Falls here", 
>
>Hmm..How did Tazendra's memories of her own funeral end up in the
>staff? Even with a friendly bend-and-half-twist of the imagination,
>one is hard pressed to admit that a dead person's memories of ones
>own funeral are somewhat hazy, to say the least. ;-)

In being brief, I gave an impression which I did not intend;  I do
not mean to suggest that the staff has memories of events at which
it was not present.  I merely meant that Morrolan knew that
Tazendra had been given to the Falls by hearing of this event from
either those who performed the ritual, or secondhand from a friend
of one of those friends.  It still would have made the moment
emotionally fraught, given that he was bearing a remnant of the
woman who had died and been given a funeral with full honors due
her at that exact spot.  And in addition, there may very well have
been a memory of that statue in the staff, since she *had* seen
the dzur statue while she was still very much alive, and he was
presumably accessing those memories when he talked about fighting
off bandits at that place.

See, it all fits.

Although now that I think about it, one could further hypothesize
that the link to a staff is continuous despite distance ... but
that would still not explain a memory of events that took place
after the wizard's death (which would presumably sever the link).


>Nice idea, though, with Tazendra's staff in Morollan's possession. 
>

<*bows*>



From antuhej at hotmail.com  Sat Aug 28 11:23:29 2004
From: antuhej at hotmail.com (Henrik Jonsson)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 20:23:29 +0200
Subject: Morrolan at Blood River
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040828093907.9371B-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <BAY8-DAV5531abMLLVu0001a318@hotmail.com>

From: "David Silberstein" <davids at Kithrup.COM>
> On Sat, 28 Aug 2004, Henrik Jonsson wrote:
> 
> >From: "David Silberstein" <davids at Kithrup.COM>
> >
> >> Note that the following contains a huge spoiler for /Sethra
> >> Lavode/.  
> >
> >
> >Spoiler space...for Sethra Lavode.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> In being brief, I gave an impression which I did not intend;  I do
> not mean to suggest that the staff has memories of events at which
> it was not present.  I merely meant that Morrolan knew that
> Tazendra had been given to the Falls by hearing of this event from
> either those who performed the ritual, or secondhand from a friend
> of one of those friends.  It still would have made the moment
> emotionally fraught, given that he was bearing a remnant of the
> woman who had died and been given a funeral with full honors due
> her at that exact spot.  And in addition, there may very well have
> been a memory of that statue in the staff, since she *had* seen
> the dzur statue while she was still very much alive, and he was
> presumably accessing those memories when he talked about fighting
> off bandits at that place.
> 
> See, it all fits.
> 
> Although now that I think about it, one could further hypothesize
> that the link to a staff is continuous despite distance ... but
> that would still not explain a memory of events that took place
> after the wizard's death (which would presumably sever the link).

Indeed, it does fit. However, that's quite a bit of interpretation
>from the one mention of the name "Sethra" by Morollan by the Dzur
icon. Another interpretation, if I can be so bold to present one
in this illustrious company, could be that Morollan was raised mainly
in the East. So, he might not have noticed the "Dzur" look on Sethra's
face before and only now, by the bank of Blood River, in the face of
a "real" dzur, makes the connection, and maybe starts to wonder if 
there is something that Sethra hasn't told him about herself.(*) 

(Granted, there's bound to be a million things Sethra hasn't 
mentioned to Morollan about herself)

While this isn't a very elaborate scheme, it does explain why
he'd say "Sethra" and not "Tazendra"... I know your theory does
explain that as well, but in a fairly roundabout way if I may say so.
(Mine is quite roundabout as well, I can freely admit that. :-)


(*: I just noticed that this sentence was awfully long. I do apologize)

/Henrik


From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com  Sat Aug 28 13:44:42 2004
From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 16:44:42 EDT
Subject: What do you think of this?
Message-ID: <15c.3d21f409.2e6248ba@aol.com>

paulw.videoideas.com  wrote on August 28, 2004
>What do you think of this? The spell that Vlad casts to make a familiar of a 
jhereg, is 
>specific to jheregs. Any restrictions about posting the text of books? This 
>from _Jhereg_
>when Vlad casts the spell:
>"Jhereg! Do not pass me by!"
>"Show me where thy soul doth lie!"

>The spell text suggests that there are many versions of the "witchcraft 
familiar" spell, since 
>Noishpa has a cat. Hope this hasn't been covered before.

>How far down does a half-cloak go? 

>Hey Linda G. My version of _Taltos_ printed in 1988, doesn't seem to 
coincide with 
your pages.

You can search and see what has been discussed on a topic by using
Dragaera Search http://dragaera.info/dragaerasearch/    There is a Boolean
match option when you get too many items back.  

Plenty of quoted text.....seems like everyone would have told us if there was 
a
problem with quoting text.  And the text is so wonderful.

Since the jhereg spell is an "old spell"  and has been "used in the East  for
thousands of years, unchanged", I would think there have been spells 
of a similar nature created for every animal around.  The Book of the
Jhereg, Jhereg trade paperback page 6.  Jhereg paperback page 5.
The spells that worked would be remembered and taught.  I think a witch 
could call a dragon and I think the dragon would actually come and then 
the dragon would eat the witch.   

On a half-cloak, see The Phoenix Guards paperback page 27 when Pel
wants to get his "regulation cut" half cloak lengthened.  Same page
we find out that at that time, Pel has blue eyes. Pel says "half-cloak,
coming only to the tops of my thighs, would but ill suit my physique."
Measure the shoulders to the ground and half the length.  Then lengthen
or shorten to see which looks best.

I cannot find my Taltos and Phoenix paperbacks which is why I went out this
year and bought the trade paperback The Book of Taltos which contains  
Taltos and Phoenix.  Page 9 of paperback Jhereg and page 9 of The Book
of Jhereg, Jhereg talks about Vlad buying a blade with the proceeds of the
restaurant.  Book of Taltos, Taltos page 58 talks about a different blade.
See Chapter 6, 3rd section that begins with "I was almost sixteen".   See
Book of Taltos, Phoenix page 386 for a description of Vlad Eastern outfit,
last chapter of Phoenix last section before the Epilogue.  

Book search does not have Taltos in it.  http://dragaera.info/booksearch/ 
Be aware that the booksearch text does not always match the text 
of the printed version you have.     

Bye.

Linda G.

From mam at theworld.com  Sat Aug 28 15:27:07 2004
From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 18:27:07 -0400
Subject: Morrolan at Blood River
In-Reply-To: <BAY8-DAV5531abMLLVu0001a318@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0408281825410.5138721-100000@shell01-g>

Henrik Jonsson wrote:

#(*: I just noticed that this sentence was awfully long. I do apologize)

No problem. It happens to a lot of us after we've been reading Paarfi
for a while.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   http://cracksandshards.com
   a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website
   [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
I am Mark Mandel's computer and I approve this message.





From mam at theworld.com  Sat Aug 28 15:43:25 2004
From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 18:43:25 -0400
Subject: What do you think of this?
In-Reply-To: <fe1e65b74c394a099f2b85cf6f2e7e41.paulw@videoideas.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0408281832130.5138721-100000@shell01-g>

It's a good beginning, but it doesn't have any personality for me. It's
just a generic face. That doesn't mean to stop!! I should've said, it
doesn't have any personality for me YET.

I finally figured out how to work the controls; the instructions are,
shall we say, insufficient. "Left click image to rotate. Hold space to
pan or control to zoom." So you left click the image and nothing
happens, nothing at all. I finally, accidentally, discovered that I
have to left-DRAG on the image to rotate it. And generalizing from that,
I was able to work out that I have to hold the space bar or control key
down while dragging in order to pan or to zoom. (Space-drag is a
peculiar concept. I've been using computers since the 1960s, and SHIFT,
CONTROL, and ALT, alone and in combination, are familiar to me and
probably to almost every other computer user, but using a character key
as a modifier is kind of mind-boggling. Maybe it is standard in image
manipulation, but this isn't an image manipulation list.) -- So, if you
can, you might want to modify those instruction texts.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   http://cracksandshards.com
   a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website
   [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]




From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com  Sat Aug 28 15:46:48 2004
From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 18:46:48 EDT
Subject: New to the list...(Impressions after re-reading it all)
Message-ID: <14.323236e5.2e626558@aol.com>

Hi, 

On the subject of the difference between Paresh's story in Teckla Chapter 2 
and what 
Paarfi says happened in Sethra Lavode page 119 hardback.  When I read Sethra 
Lavode, I 
thought Paresh was totally lying and trying to scare Vlad.   I do not 
remember Paresh ever 
using sorcery in Teckla at all.   If he was so skilled in sorcery, why didn't 
Paresh could hurl blasts in Chapter 16. 

Now I wonder if both stories are mostly true from a "certain point of view" 
(Obi-Wan Kenobi
I think).   

In Five Hundred Years After paperback, Tazendra is talking about "certain 
spells she
had been attempting to duplicate from ill-kept notebooks handed down from her 
family".
Paresh says "She had tomes on Sorcery, Baronet.  A library full of them."  
For a  poor
Teckla ill-kept notebooks might seem like tomes.  If Tazendra could not get 
the spells
to work, Paresh would not have been able to either.  If Paresh figured out 
how to 
teleport, he might have thought he could do the other spells too and that he 
could
just not see the results.  

In Teckla before Paresh's story, Vlad says "I don't know that I understand 
all of it, but
I'll give it to you as I remember it and you can decide for yourself."   Vlad 
is 
remembering what he can of the story.  Paresh is remembering the parts of the 
conversation that he wants to remember.  

The only line that I now think is a lie is when Paresh says "It exploded 
against the far
wall behind me in a mass of flame and smoke,".

Heh.  I had a strange thought while rereading parts of Teckla.  When Vlad 
first sees 
Paresh, near end of Chapter 1, he cannot figure out his House.  Yendi????  Pel
in disguise and spying.  Pel would know the story of the Teckla and Aerich.  
No,
surely Khaavren would have recognized Pel disguised as a Teckla and the 
whole plot the book Yendi would not have taken place if Pel were still alive. 
 
And Steven Brust has said something like no one else is anyone else.

I hope to get back to some soul-searching (there are so many of them) as soon 
as 
I re-read parts of Dragon,  and Taltos (section on Morrolan at Blood River)

Bye.

Linda G. 

From davids at Kithrup.COM  Sat Aug 28 22:58:22 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 22:58:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Morrolan at Blood River
In-Reply-To: <BAY8-DAV5531abMLLVu0001a318@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040828221530.16161B-100000@kithrup.com>

On Sat, 28 Aug 2004, Henrik Jonsson wrote:

>From: "David Silberstein" <davids at Kithrup.COM>
>> On Sat, 28 Aug 2004, Henrik Jonsson wrote:
>> 
>> >From: "David Silberstein" <davids at Kithrup.COM>
>> >
>> >> Note that the following contains a huge spoiler for /Sethra
>> >> Lavode/.  
>> >
>> >
>> >Spoiler space...for Sethra Lavode.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > 
>> In being brief, I gave an impression which I did not intend;  I do
>> not mean to suggest that the staff has memories of events at which
>> it was not present.  I merely meant that Morrolan knew that
>> Tazendra had been given to the Falls by hearing of this event from
>> either those who performed the ritual, or secondhand from a friend
>> of one of those friends.

Indeed, since I am assuming that Sethra Lavode herself gave him the
staff, she would almost certainly have disclosed to Morrolan the
fate of its previous wielder.

>> 
>> See, it all fits.
>> 
>
>Indeed, it does fit. However, that's quite a bit of interpretation
>from the one mention of the name "Sethra" by Morollan by the Dzur
>icon.

We here at the Rectogenic Notions Cooperative pride ourselves in
the efficiency of our carefully-woven speculation from the barest
minimum threads of information, and indeed, lack of information.

>
>(*: I just noticed that this sentence was awfully long. I do apologize)
>

I should nearly think that you would indeed rather pride yourself
on your completely understandable restraint, proper appreciation
for History, and devotion to brevity.



From rct9911 at comcast.net  Sun Aug 29 10:19:34 2004
From: rct9911 at comcast.net (Rebecca)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 12:19:34 -0500
Subject: Agyar - Sethra?
References: <BAY8-DAV33TYSl1q4gt00014fa9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <003901c48dec$5bdf36d0$6601a8c0@BOB>

Possible spoilers for /Agyar/ (depending on your definition of a spoiler)






















I recently read /Agyar/, and I got to thinking... Does Steve's sex-vampire
thing extend to Dragaera? We know that Sethra Lavode is a vampire... she
doesn't eat much food... no one mentions her sucking people's blood (I
think). Where, then, does she get her sustenance? What /really/ happens to
those Dzur heroes that never return?



From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com  Sun Aug 29 11:39:51 2004
From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 14:39:51 EDT
Subject: Agyar - Sethra?
Message-ID: <146.3227d0a7.2e637cf7@aol.com>

Rebecca wrote on August 29, 2004

>Possible spoilers for /Agyar/ 
>(depending on your definition of a spoiler)

I think it is a spoiler and so is the back cover.



















Rebecca wrote on August 29, 2004
>I recently read /Agyar/, and I got to thinking... Does Steve's 
>sex-vampire thing extend to Dragaera? 

I just bought Agyar recently too and it got me thinking...Could he 
be something besides a v*?  He cannot eat food at all.  Last 
page of Chapter 17, "They'll probably perform an autopsy."  What
would be around to autopsy after the sun was done.  No one
seems to mention any bite wounds except when someone's whole 
neck is ripped apart.  Metal through the heart kills.

Could he be an incubus?  

In the end, I settled on v* because I did not want to research
incubus and there seems to be different rules for vampires in 
different books, movies, tales, and tv-shows.  

Anybody have any idea what is the significance of the 
"piece of petrified wood" (last page)?  

Bye.

Linda G.

From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com  Sun Aug 29 13:12:14 2004
From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 16:12:14 EDT
Subject: Morrolan at Blood River
Message-ID: <1d6.2a37bad6.2e63929e@aol.com>

Hi,

I cannot seem to find a description of Tazendra's staff.  Is there 
an actual description available?

Also about Morrolan at Blood River in Book of Taltos, Taltos page 
100 Chapter 10, keep in your mind that Vlad's memory is being 
played with in Taltos.

"Sethra" Morrolan said.  Vlad blinks.  

>From Dragon, paperback page 15 near beginning of Chapter 1

Vlad says "As you approach the Falls, do you remember there being 
a large statue."  Loiosh says "Sure, Boss where Morrolan performed
that embarrassing ritual.  What about it?"

The Paths of the Dead paperback Chapter 29 page 319

"larger-than-life sculpture of a man"..."Kieron the Conqueror"

Hopefully, Steven Brust will reveal sometime why Vlad's memory 
was messed with.  Until then, all I have is wild speculation based 
on sometimes a sentence or two and sometimes just a three-letter 
word.

Bye.

Linda G.

From lqmiller at ev1.net  Tue Aug 31 11:59:11 2004
From: lqmiller at ev1.net (Louann Miller)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 13:59:11 -0500
Subject: Dragaeran Pregnancies -- Length?
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20040831135446.01999d70@mail.ev1.net>

(Hello. I'm new. Will probably mostly lurk. Recently found out that Brust 
will be at ConDFW in February, which I was going to anyway, and I'm very 
happy about it.)

The whole question is pretty much in the header. Is there any text 
evidence, or even any general agreement on this list, how long Draegeran 
pregnancies might take?

Louann (maybe that's why their birth rate seems so low...) Miller




From jsimons at genelco.com  Tue Aug 31 13:02:45 2004
From: jsimons at genelco.com (Jim Simons)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 16:02:45 -0400
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0408241638160.4723158-100000@shell01-g>
Message-ID: <000201c48f95$7c30d290$6801a8c0@gss.genelco.com>

This may have been discussed before, but how exactly does one "join" the
Jhereg (or any other house for that matter) from the outside?  We have seen
only three example of which I know.

1. Buy a title in the Jhereg as Vlad's father did.
2. Defeat seventeen Dzur champions and win the right to join in the Dzur as
Mellar did.
3. (Easterner) Spend your life  working for a Lord, and be granted
membership in the House of the Teckla (presumably any Lord from other Houses
can "grant" Teckla membership - interesting).

But we have an example that does not "seem" to fit any of these -- Kragar
left the House of the Dragon, and (presumably) joined the House of the
Jhereg.  But there is no mention of him buying a title, as was done by
Vlad's father.  (And that seems a bit unlikely as well, given the price for
the benefit.)

I also have this fleeting memory of something mentioned or alluded to about
a way to join the House of the Dragon, but I haven't been able to recall it.
I also remember Vlad making some comment about that in some houses - titles
do not always corresponding to real locations any more.. that some houses
just make them up as needed.. which would imply there might be needed in
order to allow new "membership".

So.. if your a Teckla that just happens to be "good with his hands", and
ends up doing a bit of "work", can you "join" the Organization, and thus
presumably the Jhereg?  I assume you would not have a title at that point..
you would just be "my lord" ?   What about a Dzur that turned out to fear
combat, but have a flair for architecture and construction.. could they
"move" to the House of the Vallista?




From aejoubert at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 31 16:08:33 2004
From: aejoubert at hotmail.com (Andrew Joubert)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 18:08:33 -0500
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
Message-ID: <BAY1-F37ZuItcF1CGXl0005923d@hotmail.com>


>This may have been discussed before, but how exactly does one "join" the
>Jhereg (or any other house for that matter) from the outside?  We have seen
>only three example of which I know.

<original snipped for brevity>

I always assumed Kragar just bought a title in the Jhereg.
Miklos, in _Brokedown Palace_ joined the Teckla, apparently as soon as he 
moved to the Empire.  Perhaps it is a simple as swearing feality.


>So.. if your a Teckla that just happens to be "good with his hands", and
>ends up doing a bit of "work", can you "join" the Organization, and thus
>presumably the Jhereg?  I assume you would not have a title at that point..
>you would just be "my lord" ?   What about a Dzur that turned out to fear
>combat, but have a flair for architecture and construction.. could they
>"move" to the House of the Vallista?

I would think that would be about as likely as an Irishman joining the Mafia 
in real life.  In other words, not very.  And "my lord" implies an actual 
title, so an untitled Jhereg or Teckla would just be "hey you".

I personally like to think that every house has a secret way in, even if 
Vlad doesn't know it.

--Andrew

_________________________________________________________________
Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools and 
more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx



From scott at cjhunter.com  Tue Aug 31 16:17:45 2004
From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 16:17:45 -0700
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <000201c48f95$7c30d290$6801a8c0@gss.genelco.com>
Message-ID: <496a01c48fb0$bfca9fc0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>

> So.. if your a Teckla that just happens to be "good with his 
> hands", and ends up doing a bit of "work", can you "join" the 
> Organization, and thus presumably the Jhereg?  I assume you 
> would not have a title at that point..
> you would just be "my lord" ?   What about a Dzur that turned 
> out to fear
> combat, but have a flair for architecture and construction.. 
> could they "move" to the House of the Vallista?

The real problem with moving between houses is that the Houses themselves
are the foundation of an extremely strict racial/caste system whose basis is
metaphysical as well as sociological. With the exception of the Jhereg (and
possibly the Tekla) anyone who "moves" is going to be considered "honorary"
at best by the true members of that house.

The problem with answering this question is that we have only one example to
extrapolate from. I say one because only one of the three examples we have
is for a house of the "conventional" nobility. The Dzur barrier of entry is
so high that the number of "honorary" Dzur in the entire history of the
Empire can probably be counted on one hand.

A "transferee" is not only a potential blot on the reputation of the House
(if s/he can't live up to the standards of the House) but also technically
speaking an available mate. While it's unlikely that any self-respecting
noble would allow his heir to marry a "transferee", the potential for
pollution of the gene pool means that any "transferee" has to be someone who
is so highly skilled at the gimmick of the House as to be better at it than
all of the best purebloods combined.

This last point also means that transfers are inherently self-limiting. If a
Dzur successfully transferred to the Vallista, he would die childless. No
self-respecting Dzur would choose him for a husband, and no self-respecting
pureblood Vallista would choose him either. With no Vallista heir, his
membership in the House would last one lifetime, then his property and
titles would revert back to the House. 

All this means that "transferring" is something that just isn't going to
happen very frequently. When it does happen, it's going to be a pretty
exceptional case.









From howard at brazee.net  Tue Aug 31 17:26:17 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 18:26:17 -0600
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <000201c48f95$7c30d290$6801a8c0@gss.genelco.com>
Message-ID: <000201c48fba$4cba8e00$b07ba8c0@Dad133>

Jim Simons wrote:
> This may have been discussed before, but how exactly does one "join"
> the Jhereg (or any other house for that matter) from the outside?  We
> have seen only three example of which I know.
> 
> 1. Buy a title in the Jhereg as Vlad's father did.
> 2. Defeat seventeen Dzur champions and win the right to join in the
> Dzur as Mellar did.
> 3. (Easterner) Spend your life  working for a Lord, and be granted
> membership in the House of the Teckla (presumably any Lord from other
> Houses can "grant" Teckla membership - interesting).

I wonder if one can arrange a reincarnation.



From howard at brazee.net  Tue Aug 31 17:30:11 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 18:30:11 -0600
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <496a01c48fb0$bfca9fc0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <000301c48fba$d8ce8a40$b07ba8c0@Dad133>

Scott Schultz wrote:

> This last point also means that transfers are inherently
> self-limiting. If a Dzur successfully transferred to the Vallista, he
> would die childless. No self-respecting Dzur would choose him for a
> husband, and no self-respecting pureblood Vallista would choose him
> either. With no Vallista heir, his membership in the House would last
> one lifetime, then his property and titles would revert back to the
> House.

At least if there isn't a way to change his genes over - which isn't a
certainty.




From alexx at panix.com  Tue Aug 31 17:31:29 2004
From: alexx at panix.com (Alexx Kay)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 20:31:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <BAY1-F37ZuItcF1CGXl0005923d@hotmail.com> from "Andrew Joubert" at Aug 31, 2004 06:08:33 PM
Message-ID: <200409010031.i810VT123263@panix1.panix.com>


> I personally like to think that every house has a secret way in, even if 
> Vlad doesn't know it.

Presumably, if you can fool the top people in the House of Yendi into 
thinking that you already *are* a member, that proves that you're good
enough to join :-)

Alexx


Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers.
alexx at carolingiaSPAMBL@CK.org                http://www.panix.com/~alexx
"What's interesting is Kellerman's comment during the book ... and I'm
 paraphrasing from memory now... that while at first he would have
 hallucinations, feel weird, hear voices, and then go and kill somebody, as
 his killing career progressed there came a point where he was committing
 the murders in /order/ to see hallucinations, feel weird, and hear voices."
    -- Alan Moore in correspondence with Dave Sim about _From Hell_


From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Tue Aug 31 18:22:27 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 18:22:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <200409010031.i810VT123263@panix1.panix.com>
References: <200409010031.i810VT123263@panix1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408311819210.10077@flora04.slac.stanford.edu>



On Tue, 31 Aug 2004, Alexx Kay wrote:

>
> > I personally like to think that every house has a secret way in, even if
> > Vlad doesn't know it.
>
> Presumably, if you can fool the top people in the House of Yendi into
> thinking that you already *are* a member, that proves that you're good
> enough to join :-)


If (as I suspect) House Yendi is the house of cuckoos, there are a lot of
members of the house who just don't know it yet.  Perhaps the secret
entrance is in fact the normal entrance...




From Bato001 at aol.com  Tue Aug 31 20:41:03 2004
From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 23:41:03 EDT
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
Message-ID: <1a3.28ed9c8d.2e669ecf@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 8/31/2004 9:23:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,  
philiph at slac.stanford.edu writes:

> I  personally like to think that every house has a secret way in, even if
>  > Vlad doesn't know it.
>
> Presumably, if you can fool the top  people in the House of Yendi into
> thinking that you already *are* a  member, that proves that you're good
> enough to join :-)


If  (as I suspect) House Yendi is the house of cuckoos, there are a lot  of
members of the house who just don't know it yet.  Perhaps the  secret
entrance is in fact the normal  entrance...



I don't believe you are allowed to buy into any house except Jhereg.  Dzur is 
the only other house I remember there being a way in except for birth. 
 
john d. barbato ,od

From shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  1 04:37:21 2004
From: shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com (S SHafer)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 04:37:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <1a3.28ed9c8d.2e669ecf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20040901113721.50497.qmail@web53407.mail.yahoo.com>

Spoiler for Sethra Lavode:








































>I don't believe you are allowed to buy into any
>house except Jhereg. Dzur is 
>the only other house I remember there being a way in
>except for birth. 

The Lavode clan isn't a house, but I'd like to point
to Tazendra's entrance into the clan, which seemed to
over-ride her heritage as a Dzur (at least in her
dress).  The Dragaeran's seemed to accept her as a
Lavode rather than a Dzur, even though her personality
remained charictaristically Dzur.  My point is that
exceptional Dragaerans seem to be able to change their
"House identity" without much thought.

I also wonder about reincarnation and house. 
Vlad/Kieron certainly wasn't reincarnated back into
his house (or even his race), but does house normally
play some role in how/where a Dragaeran is
reincarnated?

 - ST



From asr at ufl.edu  Wed Sep  1 07:11:33 2004
From: asr at ufl.edu (asr at ufl.edu)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 10:11:33 -0400
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 31 Aug 2004 18:22:27 PDT."             <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408311819210.10077@flora04.slac.stanford.edu> 
Message-ID: <200409011411.i81EBXaA096394@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu>


==> In article <Pine.GSO.4.58.0408311819210.10077 at flora04.slac.stanford.edu>, Philip Hart <philiph at slac.stanford.edu> writes:

> If (as I suspect) House Yendi is the house of cuckoos, there are a lot of
> members of the house who just don't know it yet.  Perhaps the secret
> entrance is in fact the normal entrance...


Cuckoos, or cuckolds?   :) 

I've thought for a while that yendi is the asymptote to which 'crossbreed'
tends.

I know I always perk up my ears when someone has trouble figuring out what
house someone else is. Seems to me that the 'halfbreeds' are the ones who are
angsty about being in the middle.  The 'yendi' are the ones who have come to
peace with it, and have decided to emphasize the ... peculiar advantages
... that go with the situation.

This may not conflict with the 'secret entrance == normal entrance' theory.  I
like that too. 


- Allen S. Rout


From casey at the-bat.net  Wed Sep  1 08:19:33 2004
From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:19:33 -0400
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses 
In-Reply-To: <200409011411.i81EBXaA096394@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu>
Message-ID: <mailman.4.1157398845.1952.dragaera@dragaera.info>

Allen S. Rout writ:
> I've thought for a while that yendi is the asymptote to which 
> 'crossbreed' tends.

Based on Aliera's explanations in Yendi, the acknowedged clusterings of
genetic drift can be found in Teckla and Jhereg.  Nothing in the books have
explicitly said that it is possible to become/remain a member of the Yendi
if one is a crossbreed.



From zizban at adelphia.net  Wed Sep  1 08:24:32 2004
From: zizban at adelphia.net (Chris Turkel)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:24:32 -0400
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses 
In-Reply-To: <20040901151945.POHG17989.mta7.adelphia.net@dd-b.net>
References: <20040901151945.POHG17989.mta7.adelphia.net@dd-b.net>
Message-ID: <065D00AE-FC2B-11D8-97C1-000A9568ECBC@adelphia.net>


On Sep 1, 2004, at 11:19 AM, Casey Rousseau wrote:

> Allen S. Rout writ:
>> I've thought for a while that yendi is the asymptote to which
>> 'crossbreed' tends.
>
> Based on Aliera's explanations in Yendi, the acknowedged clusterings of
> genetic drift can be found in Teckla and Jhereg.  Nothing in the books 
> have
> explicitly said that it is possible to become/remain a member of the 
> Yendi
> if one is a crossbreed.
>

Unless you have to be a crossbreed in order to join from outside the 
House. That would be yendi thing to do.



From davids at Kithrup.COM  Wed Sep  1 09:23:18 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:23:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Dragaeran Pregnancies -- Length?
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20040831135446.01999d70@mail.ev1.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040901085852.2695A-100000@kithrup.com>

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004, Louann Miller wrote:

>
>The whole question is pretty much in the header. Is there any text
>evidence, or even any general agreement on this list, how long
>Draegeran pregnancies might take? 
>

There is not textual evidence, but there is a certain amount of
pararectal speculation of approximately 3-6 years.

   http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/4881

   http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/8650

   http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/8651

This works out mathimatically, if one calculates thusly:  
Given that human menarche is at 12 years, one notes that the period
of gestation is 1/16th of that.  Assuming (wildly) that Dragaeran
menarche is at 50 years, 1/16th of that is 3.125 years.  Or so.

But your guess is as good as anyone elses, especially since we do
not know for sure when menarche occurs.  Does anyone with a
background in biology wish to comment? 


Thinking about it, if pregnancy lasted that long, one would think
that it would become general knowledge fairly quickly, so Khaavren
should not have been surprised to hear of the Princess Loudin's
pregnancy.  To the left, he may have been feigning ignorance, which
we have seen him do even with the Emperor.  To the right, Loudin
may have wanted to avoid the gossip and political infighting at
court, and Khaavren really did not know her status until Vernoi
told him.



From warbi at warbi.net  Wed Sep  1 09:45:59 2004
From: warbi at warbi.net (warbi)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:45:59 -0700
Subject: Dragaeran Pregnancies -- Length?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040901085852.2695A-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <PJELIDFPLNDLDLNDKOAJKEOICDAA.warbi@warbi.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: David Silberstein [mailto:davids at Kithrup.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 9:23 AM
To: Dragaera List
Subject: Re: Dragaeran Pregnancies -- Length?


On Tue, 31 Aug 2004, Louann Miller wrote:

>
>The whole question is pretty much in the header. Is there any text
>evidence, or even any general agreement on this list, how long
>Draegeran pregnancies might take?
>

There is not textual evidence, but there is a certain amount of
pararectal speculation of approximately 3-6 years.

   http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/4881

   http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/8650

   http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi/1/8651

This works out mathimatically, if one calculates thusly:
Given that human menarche is at 12 years, one notes that the period
of gestation is 1/16th of that.  Assuming (wildly) that Dragaeran
menarche is at 50 years, 1/16th of that is 3.125 years.  Or so.

But your guess is as good as anyone elses, especially since we do
not know for sure when menarche occurs.  Does anyone with a
background in biology wish to comment?


Thinking about it, if pregnancy lasted that long, one would think
that it would become general knowledge fairly quickly, so Khaavren
should not have been surprised to hear of the Princess Loudin's
pregnancy.  To the left, he may have been feigning ignorance, which
we have seen him do even with the Emperor.  To the right, Loudin
may have wanted to avoid the gossip and political infighting at
court, and Khaavren really did not know her status until Vernoi
told him.

                  ---------
  Actually, the age of menarche has been decreasing over time, so the
comparison of age of menarche to length of gestation doesn't really hold.  I
think that menarche's median age is now 9.  Biologists believe that the
earlier onset of menarche is due to better nutrition and health although it
is unknown for sure.
  Also, the Jenoine have genetically/magically(?) mixed Dragaerians with
native occuring animals (Jhereg, et al) so I would imagine that this would
impact the biology of Dragaerians as well.  Just my two cents.    warbi



From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Wed Sep  1 10:13:56 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:13:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses 
In-Reply-To: <200409011519.i81FJw8V011079@nospam3.slac.stanford.edu>
References: <200409011519.i81FJw8V011079@nospam3.slac.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0409010958200.28364@flora02.slac.stanford.edu>



On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Casey Rousseau wrote:

> Based on Aliera's explanations in Yendi, the acknowedged clusterings of
> genetic drift can be found in Teckla and Jhereg.  Nothing in the books have
> explicitly said that it is possible to become/remain a member of the Yendi
> if one is a crossbreed.

No one in the books is in a position to know (well, ok, conceivably
Aliera) or (in Pel's case) informed and likely to tell the truth.

According to the cuckoo theory there should be a good deal of taboo
associated with Yendi.  (Also probably a lot of gutter humor.  Come
to think of it, I don't think there's anything ribald in the Texts -
I'm thinking of the sort of jokes I have to read the footnotes to
understand in the first acts of Shakespearean comedies, or Rabelais,
or say Laurence Sterne.  Guess it would slow things down too much.)


From erik at debill.org  Wed Sep  1 10:22:21 2004
From: erik at debill.org (erik at debill.org)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:22:21 -0500
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <496a01c48fb0$bfca9fc0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
References: <000201c48f95$7c30d290$6801a8c0@gss.genelco.com> <496a01c48fb0$bfca9fc0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <20040901172221.GA5726@debill.org>

On Tue, Aug 31, 2004 at 04:17:45PM -0700, Scott Schultz wrote:
> The real problem with moving between houses is that the Houses themselves
> are the foundation of an extremely strict racial/caste system whose basis is
> metaphysical as well as sociological. With the exception of the Jhereg (and
> possibly the Tekla) anyone who "moves" is going to be considered "honorary"
> at best by the true members of that house.

I could see Dzur being an exception to this as well.  They pride
themselves on being the best fighters, the most fierce.  They might
even convince themselves that someone was born into the wrong house
and Dzur was their "true" house.


> This last point also means that transfers are inherently self-limiting. If a
> Dzur successfully transferred to the Vallista, he would die childless. No
> self-respecting Dzur would choose him for a husband, and no self-respecting
> pureblood Vallista would choose him either. With no Vallista heir, his
> membership in the House would last one lifetime, then his property and
> titles would revert back to the House. 

Once again, since fierceness is so prized, I'd suspect that anyone who
fought their way into the House of the Dzur would either qualify or
very nearly qualify as a Hero and probably be prime marriage material.

I believe that we saw Tazendra at least having flings with members of
other houses - Dzur might well just be less strict about that.  You'll
note that it always seemed to be soldiers and other fighters she
flirted with.


> All this means that "transferring" is something that just isn't going to
> happen very frequently. When it does happen, it's going to be a pretty
> exceptional case.

No point having a caste system if you can change castes easily.


Erik
-- 
Well I'm walking through the sand
In the desert of my mind
And I don't remember what it was
That I came here to find
  -- Sister Machine Gun "Alone"


From lairdb at gmail.com  Wed Sep  1 10:36:48 2004
From: lairdb at gmail.com (L. Broadfield)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:36:48 -0700
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <20040901172221.GA5726@debill.org>
References: <000201c48f95$7c30d290$6801a8c0@gss.genelco.com> <496a01c48fb0$bfca9fc0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <20040901172221.GA5726@debill.org>
Message-ID: <ca25294d04090110367c16e4e9@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:22:21 -0500, erik at debill.org <erik at debill.org> wrote:
[...]
> I believe that we saw Tazendra at least having flings with members of
> other houses - Dzur might well just be less strict about that.  You'll
> note that it always seemed to be soldiers and other fighters she
> flirted with.


Flings and flirting might be wildly different things, though -- IIRC,
an aspect of "courtly" behaviour was the frequent wielding of innuendo
and flirtatiousness without any actual intent to follow through.  C.F.
Khaavren's courtly speech to Daro before he learns she is also of his
house.


From howard at brazee.net  Wed Sep  1 10:40:11 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 11:40:11 -0600
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <20040901172221.GA5726@debill.org>
References: <000201c48f95$7c30d290$6801a8c0@gss.genelco.com> <496a01c48fb0$bfca9fc0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <20040901172221.GA5726@debill.org>
Message-ID: <opsdnso9azmng2fm@emerald.he.net>

Are the houses for nobels, gentry, commoners, and serf equally?

We see in our world experience that it is often more important to be of  
Royal Blood than to be of the blood of the ruled.   One can become a  
Duzurlord by battle.   How does one become a Duzur serf?

When a ruler rules an Orca community, there are non Orcas in that  
community - at least by blood - that Westerner certainly doesn't look  
Orca.   But is that difference the same for all classes?    Or is that  
Westerner considered an Orca anyway?

It may be easier for a high class person to change houses.   Serfs are  
distrustful of outsiders in their class.    Or it may be easier for the  
low class person to change houses.

I suspect that this may vary by house.   Half-breeds in one house may be  
almost all low-class, but in another house, they may be almost all high  
class.



-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/


From howard at brazee.net  Wed Sep  1 10:42:15 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 11:42:15 -0600
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <ca25294d04090110367c16e4e9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000201c48f95$7c30d290$6801a8c0@gss.genelco.com> <496a01c48fb0$bfca9fc0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <20040901172221.GA5726@debill.org> <ca25294d04090110367c16e4e9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <opsdnsspwcmng2fm@emerald.he.net>

On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:36:48 -0700, L. Broadfield <lairdb at gmail.com> wrote:

> Flings and flirting might be wildly different things, though -- IIRC,
> an aspect of "courtly" behaviour was the frequent wielding of innuendo
> and flirtatiousness without any actual intent to follow through.  C.F.
> Khaavren's courtly speech to Daro before he learns she is also of his
> house.

With full control of their ability to reproduce, the definition of "follow  
through" may be considerably different in this context than ours.    What  
really matters is whether they reproduce or at least set up house.



-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/


From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Wed Sep  1 11:05:37 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:05:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <20040901172221.GA5726@debill.org>
References: <000201c48f95$7c30d290$6801a8c0@gss.genelco.com> <496a01c48fb0$bfca9fc0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <20040901172221.GA5726@debill.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0409011056020.28364@flora02.slac.stanford.edu>



On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 erik at debill.org wrote:

> Once again, since fierceness is so prized, I'd suspect that anyone who
> fought their way into the House of the Dzur would either qualify or
> very nearly qualify as a Hero and probably be prime marriage material.


Someone on the list very sharply noted that the Dzur seem to sleep outside
the house a lot.  I'm not sure "fierceness" is the common denominator of
their partners, though.  Consider the Piroiad, for example.


> I believe that we saw Tazendra at least having flings with members of
> other houses - Dzur might well just be less strict about that.

Or more susceptible - v. above.


> You'll note that it always seemed to be soldiers and other fighters she
> flirted with.


A nice observation if true - I only remember a Hawklord from _TPG_.
How to characterize her most important emotional relatee I don't know.


> No point having a caste system if you can change castes easily.

Unless the castes represent something actual, instead of being hereditary.


It strikes me that the military and the medical in our society
are a bit like Houses, in the sense of hereditary professions.
And the musical.


From Gaertk at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 11:10:19 2004
From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 14:10:19 -0400
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
Message-ID: <2660A805.45F5E542.00048EA6@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/1/2004 1:40:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Howard Brazee" <howard at brazee.net> writes:

> Are the houses for nobels, gentry, commoners, and serf 
> equally?

There are no Teckla lords, and no non-Teckla serfs.  Other than
that, the heirarchy is mixed.  We've already seen a Lyorn with a
Dzur vassal (Aerich and Tazendra) and some lucky Dragonlord (I'm
hoping Morrolan) has Vlad for a vassal.


--KG



From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Wed Sep  1 11:14:20 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:14:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <2660A805.45F5E542.00048EA6@aol.com>
References: <2660A805.45F5E542.00048EA6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0409011111290.28364@flora02.slac.stanford.edu>



On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 Gaertk at aol.com wrote:

> There are no Teckla lords, and no non-Teckla serfs.  Other than
> that, the heirarchy is mixed.  We've already seen a Lyorn with a
> Dzur vassal (Aerich and Tazendra) and some lucky Dragonlord (I'm
> hoping Morrolan) has Vlad for a vassal.


Nice thought re Vlad, but post-_Phoenix_ doesn't his Countship
(Countdom?  Countity? Countitude?) come directly from the Empress,
hence he reports to her?


From scott at cjhunter.com  Wed Sep  1 11:20:45 2004
From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:20:45 -0700
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <20040901172221.GA5726@debill.org>
Message-ID: <029f01c49050$6ca829c0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>

> Once again, since fierceness is so prized, I'd suspect that 
> anyone who fought their way into the House of the Dzur would 
> either qualify or very nearly qualify as a Hero and probably 
> be prime marriage material.
> 

IMO, definitely not. Racial purity is a huge thing to the noble Houses.
No-one ever has mixed-blood children unless it's somehow unavoidable or
they're so stupidly in love that their hormones get the best of them. (My
memory, faulty thing that it is, says that Dragaerans can choose when they
conceive; making conception of a half-breed both unlikely and simultaneously
a huge social faux-pas.) Simply being accepted into the House wouldn't
change the social taboos regarding mixed genetics.

> I believe that we saw Tazendra at least having flings with 
> members of other houses - Dzur might well just be less strict 
> about that.  You'll note that it always seemed to be soldiers 
> and other fighters she flirted with.
>

"Affairs of the heart" occur regularly between Houses. There's nothing wrong
with harmless flirtation or even love affairs within certain limits. Even
Zerika's Easterner lover is considered harmless, if perhaps of questionable
taste. Marriage, though, is about children and the continuation of the
family line and of the House. Look at Khaavren's reaction to Piro's
proposal. He would have ignored a simple love affair, but marriage was a
different thing altogether. If Piro's fiance (yeah, I'm avoiding names just
to minimize the spoilers) had somehow managed to defect from her House and
gain membership in House Tiassa, Khaavren would STILL have been against the
marriage. It isn't the colors of her clothes that matters, it's her
bloodline.

The only way that our hypothetical Dzur-turned-Vallista would get a wife
would be if they agreed up-front that there would never be children. An heir
would be acquired through adoption, most likely. Even then, there'd be a
certain amount of social scandal in the arrangement. 





From howard at brazee.net  Wed Sep  1 11:40:56 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 12:40:56 -0600
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0409011056020.28364@flora02.slac.stanford.edu>
References: <000201c48f95$7c30d290$6801a8c0@gss.genelco.com> <496a01c48fb0$bfca9fc0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <20040901172221.GA5726@debill.org> <Pine.GSO.4.58.0409011056020.28364@flora02.slac.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <opsdnviixemng2fm@emerald.he.net>

On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Philip Hart  
<philiph at slac.stanford.edu> wrote:


> It strikes me that the military and the medical in our society
> are a bit like Houses, in the sense of hereditary professions.
> And the musical.

Show biz is very much there.   And obviously farming.



-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/


From scott at cjhunter.com  Wed Sep  1 11:43:56 2004
From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:43:56 -0700
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0409011111290.28364@flora02.slac.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <02ea01c49053$a9ac8e80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>

> 
> Nice thought re Vlad, but post-_Phoenix_ doesn't his 
> Countship (Countdom?  Countity? Countitude?) come directly 
> from the Empress, hence he reports to her?
> 

Not really. The way I see it, this just means that his lands and titles
belong to the Empire instead of to any particular House. Vlad's original
baronetcy(?) came from House Jhereg directly, awarded by the Council (or
whichever department is responsible for selling titles). There are
heirachies in the Houses and there are separate heirarchies in the Empire.
That's one of the reasons you get nobles with credentials that take five
minutes to recite. ("Allow me to present Aerich, Duke of Arylle, Count of
Two-finger, Protector of Windhome, Keeper of the Sacred Keys...") The Empire
can be thought of as an 18th "House" that encompasses the others without
pre-empting them. Any land (and associated titles) that doesn't belong to a
House belongs to the Empire. Tazendra could be quite highly placed within
the Dzur heirarchy and still be placed lower than Aerich in the empirical
heirarchy.

>From the sound of things, Vlad's county has been running things just fine
without a Count for quite a while. His liege probably doesn't care who the
title belongs to as long as he gets his proper taxes and duties paid to him.
We don't know who his "liege lord" is simply because it hasn't been germane
to any of the stories (yet). If Vlad ever visits Noish-pa, we'll probably
learn some of those details.






From erik at debill.org  Wed Sep  1 11:54:16 2004
From: erik at debill.org (erik at debill.org)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 13:54:16 -0500
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <opsdnviixemng2fm@emerald.he.net>
References: <000201c48f95$7c30d290$6801a8c0@gss.genelco.com> <496a01c48fb0$bfca9fc0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <20040901172221.GA5726@debill.org> <Pine.GSO.4.58.0409011056020.28364@flora02.slac.stanford.edu> <opsdnviixemng2fm@emerald.he.net>
Message-ID: <20040901185416.GA6082@debill.org>

On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 12:40:56PM -0600, Howard Brazee wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:05:37 -0700 (PDT), Philip Hart  
> <philiph at slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
> 
> 
> >It strikes me that the military and the medical in our society
> >are a bit like Houses, in the sense of hereditary professions.
> >And the musical.
> 
> Show biz is very much there.   And obviously farming.

Religion, as well.  I grew up Lutheran and it was a rare pastor who's
father wasn't one as well.

My family is all in technology, though that may have more to do with
the jobs here in Austin.


Erik


From mam at theworld.com  Wed Sep  1 11:53:47 2004
From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:53:47 -0400
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <1a3.28ed9c8d.2e669ecf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0409011451150.5571125-100000@shell01-g>

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 Bato001 at aol.com wrote:

#
#In a message dated 8/31/2004 9:23:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,
#philiph at slac.stanford.edu writes:
#
#> I  personally like to think that every house has a secret way in, even if
#>  > Vlad doesn't know it.
#>
#> Presumably, if you can fool the top  people in the House of Yendi into
#> thinking that you already *are* a  member, that proves that you're good
#> enough to join :-)
#
#
#If  (as I suspect) House Yendi is the house of cuckoos, there are a lot  of
#members of the house who just don't know it yet.  Perhaps the  secret
#entrance is in fact the normal  entrance...
#
#
#
#I don't believe you are allowed to buy into any house except Jhereg.  Dzur is
#the only other house I remember there being a way in except for birth.

We don't KNOW of any house other than Jhereg that you can buy into.
That's very different from knowing, or having a basis to believe, that
there are none.

As I am pretty sure I posted to this list a few days ago, in Brokedown
Palace Miklos swore fealty to a Dragaeran noble and joined the Teckla.
That's how he gained access to Dragaeran sorcery.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   http://cracksandshards.com
   a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website
   [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]




From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  1 12:25:42 2004
From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:25:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Dragaeran Pregnancies -- Length?
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20040831135446.01999d70@mail.ev1.net>
Message-ID: <20040901192542.79089.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Louann Miller <lqmiller at ev1.net> wrote:

> (Hello. I'm new. Will probably mostly lurk. Recently found out that
> Brust 
> will be at ConDFW in February, which I was going to anyway, and I'm very
> 
> happy about it.)
> 
> The whole question is pretty much in the header. Is there any text 
> evidence, or even any general agreement on this list, how long Draegeran
> 
> pregnancies might take?
> 
> Louann (maybe that's why their birth rate seems so low...) Miller

I don't remember even a scrap of evidence.  I'd also like to know
when Dragaeran children reach their full height, and I don't remember
seeing that either (except that we know it's before something like
70 or 80, right).

Jerry (hi, I remember you from rasfw) Friedman


		
_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush


From mam at TheWorld.com  Wed Sep  1 11:57:57 2004
From: mam at TheWorld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:57:57 -0400
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses 
In-Reply-To: <200409011519.i81FJmq8003263@TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0409011457180.5571125-100000@shell01-g>

On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Casey Rousseau wrote:

#Allen S. Rout writ:
#> I've thought for a while that yendi is the asymptote to which
#> 'crossbreed' tends.
#
#Based on Aliera's explanations in Yendi, the acknowedged clusterings of
#genetic drift can be found in Teckla and Jhereg.  Nothing in the books have
#explicitly said that it is possible to become/remain a member of the Yendi
#if one is a crossbreed.

I think Allen is thinking of the fact that the Yendi have no
identifiable physical characteristics.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   http://cracksandshards.com
   a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website
   [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]




From mam at TheWorld.com  Wed Sep  1 11:56:50 2004
From: mam at TheWorld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:56:50 -0400
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <20040901113721.50497.qmail@web53407.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0409011456480.5571125-100000@shell01-g>


The Lavodes are not a House, not a clan, but an organization. There is
no more conflict between being, say, a Dzur and a Lavode then there is
between being a Dzur and a member of the Phoenix Guard. Tazendra Lavode
is still called a Dzurlord in Paarfi's narration.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   http://cracksandshards.com
   a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website
   [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]



From howard at brazee.net  Wed Sep  1 12:53:31 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:53:31 -0600
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <02ea01c49053$a9ac8e80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
References: <02ea01c49053$a9ac8e80$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <opsdnyvhasmng2fm@emerald.he.net>

On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:43:56 -0700, Scott Schultz <scott at cjhunter.com>  
wrote:

> Not really. The way I see it, this just means that his lands and titles
> belong to the Empire instead of to any particular House. Vlad's original
> baronetcy(?) came from House Jhereg directly, awarded by the Council (or
> whichever department is responsible for selling titles). There are
> heirachies in the Houses and there are separate heirarchies in the  
> Empire.

When the Emperess promisses Morollan a bunch of land - doesn't that land  
now become Dragon land?   Do its vassals now become Dragonian?   Is there  
"federal land" that is only owned by the empire?


>> From the sound of things, Vlad's county has been running things just  
>> fine without a Count for quite a while.

What have you heard?

>> His liege probably doesn't care who the
> title belongs to as long as he gets his proper taxes and duties paid to  
> him.
> We don't know who his "liege lord" is simply because it hasn't been  
> germane
> to any of the stories (yet). If Vlad ever visits Noish-pa, we'll probably
> learn some of those details.

It appears that the serfs and the nobels have very separate lives.   They  
don't seem to be aware of what each other are doing, whether they live or  
die, or anything - as long as the tribute stays constant.


-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/


From davids at Kithrup.COM  Wed Sep  1 12:55:57 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:55:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Dragaeran Pregnancies -- Length?
In-Reply-To: <PJELIDFPLNDLDLNDKOAJKEOICDAA.warbi@warbi.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040901123318.1095A-100000@kithrup.com>

On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, warbi wrote:

>  Actually, the age of menarche has been decreasing over time, so
>the comparison of age of menarche to length of gestation doesn't
>really hold.  I think that menarche's median age is now 9. 
>Biologists believe that the earlier onset of menarche is due to
>better nutrition and health although it is unknown for sure. 

Hmm.  I have heard of such early occurences, but my understanding
was that they were unusual, certainly not the median. 

[Wikipedia]

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menarche

   The average age of menarche in the United States is about 12
   years, 8 months, which is a few months earlier than fifty years
   ago.

[eMedicine Google, first hit]

   http://www.emedicine.com/ped/byname/menstruation-disorders.htm

   For a regular menstrual cycle, the median age of menarche is
   12.77 years.


[Medline Google]

   http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002003.htm

   Menarche (the beginning of menstrual periods) typically occurs
   about 2 years after initial pubescent changes are noted. It may
   occur as early as 10 years, or as late as 15 years, with the
   average in the United States being about 12.5 years.


Although the article does point out that "puberty" is a process,
taking years to complete, and can begin as early as 8 years.  But
menarche signals the actual start of fertility, which is more
significant biologically than the other signs of pubescence, at
least for my point.


>  Also, the Jenoine have genetically/magically(?) mixed
>Dragaerians with native occuring animals (Jhereg, et al) so I
>would imagine that this would impact the biology of Dragaerians as
>well. 

I've suggested before that the animal genes don't actually affect
the Dragaeran development; they are merely there as markers. 
Aliera merely mentions the presence of the genes; she doesn't go
into how, or even if, they affect Dragaerans.

Of course, I could be wrong.

I find myself wondering if Dragaerans know what genes are without
knowing what DNA is.  That is, they know that there is *something*
in each cell of the body that is distinct, and which tells the body
how to develop, and is passed on from parent to child, but not the
actual chemical makeup of what it *is*.

I could be wrong about that, too.



From warbi at warbi.net  Wed Sep  1 13:33:15 2004
From: warbi at warbi.net (warbi)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 13:33:15 -0700
Subject: Dragaeran Pregnancies -- Length?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040901123318.1095A-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <PJELIDFPLNDLDLNDKOAJIEONCDAA.warbi@warbi.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: David Silberstein [mailto:davids at Kithrup.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 12:56 PM
To: Dragaera List
Subject: RE: Dragaeran Pregnancies -- Length?


On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, warbi wrote:

>  Actually, the age of menarche has been decreasing over time, so
>the comparison of age of menarche to length of gestation doesn't
>really hold.  I think that menarche's median age is now 9.
>Biologists believe that the earlier onset of menarche is due to
>better nutrition and health although it is unknown for sure.

Hmm.  I have heard of such early occurences, but my understanding
was that they were unusual, certainly not the median.

[Wikipedia]

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menarche

   The average age of menarche in the United States is about 12
   years, 8 months, which is a few months earlier than fifty years
   ago.

[eMedicine Google, first hit]

   http://www.emedicine.com/ped/byname/menstruation-disorders.htm

   For a regular menstrual cycle, the median age of menarche is
   12.77 years.


[Medline Google]

   http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002003.htm

   Menarche (the beginning of menstrual periods) typically occurs
   about 2 years after initial pubescent changes are noted. It may
   occur as early as 10 years, or as late as 15 years, with the
   average in the United States being about 12.5 years.


Although the article does point out that "puberty" is a process,
taking years to complete, and can begin as early as 8 years.  But
menarche signals the actual start of fertility, which is more
significant biologically than the other signs of pubescence, at
least for my point.


>  Also, the Jenoine have genetically/magically(?) mixed
>Dragaerians with native occuring animals (Jhereg, et al) so I
>would imagine that this would impact the biology of Dragaerians as
>well.

I've suggested before that the animal genes don't actually affect
the Dragaeran development; they are merely there as markers.
Aliera merely mentions the presence of the genes; she doesn't go
into how, or even if, they affect Dragaerans.

Of course, I could be wrong.

I find myself wondering if Dragaerans know what genes are without
knowing what DNA is.  That is, they know that there is *something*
in each cell of the body that is distinct, and which tells the body
how to develop, and is passed on from parent to child, but not the
actual chemical makeup of what it *is*.

I could be wrong about that, too.

              ---------

  Heh, point ceded on the age of menarche issue- I read quite some time ago
about the earlier onset, but should have done a quick search on the age
before I typed <bangs head on keyboard>.

  As for the genes affecting the Dragaerians, that *seems* to be the case.
(This is Steve's world after all, so it doesn't have to follow our world's
"rules" of necessity.)  Each House has its own characteristic phenotype in
their physical appearance, mainly in the eyes and ears it seems, as well as
certain psychological characteristics, like a Yendi being scheming.  Now
whether or not their psychology is due in whole or part to the animal genes
or only due to socio-environmental causes is another question altogether.
It does seem that each House has its own characteristics that are distinct
>from other Houses.
  Maybe Steve could either author or contract a book like the old Gnomes
book from the 70's (80's?).  It could be broken down by each House and
discuss the various aspects of life for that House.   warbi



From scott at cjhunter.com  Wed Sep  1 13:34:30 2004
From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 13:34:30 -0700
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <opsdnyvhasmng2fm@emerald.he.net>
Message-ID: <042401c49063$1b9aac20$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>

> When the Emperess promisses Morollan a bunch of land - 
> doesn't that land  
> now become Dragon land?   Do its vassals now become 
> Dragonian?  

Keeping in mind that anything we write about this topic is guesswork, my
guess is "no". Land belongs to Empire or to one of the Houses. What changes
hands is the right to exploit that land. Other than social standing, that's
what titles are about. Imperial titles give you the right to exploit
"federal land", as it were. Now, no story (to my knowledge) had directly
implied the existence of this "federal land" but it just about has to exist.
Any time the borders expand, new land will come under the jurisdiction of
the Empire. Someone has to be responsible for it. Not to mention that the
beauracracy probably requires a certain amount of income that arrives
independently of any House machinations.

Now, that's not to say that the Empress can't give the actual land rights to
a House whose council then awards House titles to her chosen recipient. Just
that the normal course is to hand over an Imperial Title and keep the actual
land in the control of the Empress. 

The empire is an interesting case, because the government changes hands on a
semi-predicatable basis. There are likely to be a lot of laws and rules in
place that govern how land is handled and especially how "federal land"
changes hands. If there weren't, then the first thing a new Emporer would do
is give all of the "federal land" to his friends in his own House. I'd
imagine that the exchange of land rights between the Imperial Beauracracy
and the Houses is a political tool that gives the Emporer some power when it
comes to dealing with (or making deals with) uncooperative Houses.

The real problem we have here is that Zerika is an atypical Empress. In the
normal course of things, the sitting Empress (Norathar, for example) would
have the power and prestige of the House behind her. With no House to turn
to for help, Zerika is completely dependant upon the Imperial beauracracy.
As a House of one, she doesn't give us much insight as to how the Houses
normally operate when one of their own is on the throne.

In any case, we can assume that running the Empire requires more resources
than any one House has available, hence the neccesity for there to be
Imperial land and titles (along with their trade and mineral rights) that
can be brokered with the other Houses as required. The usage of Imperial
land/titles as a kind of currency among the houses is probably not too
far-fetched, and would be a good enough reason to preserve a certain amount
of "federal land" so that the Emporer has an income in addition to his House
backing and so that a House doesn't find itself being raided and losing all
of its lands when the next House takes power, wanting its own piece of the
pie.

> >> From the sound of things, Vlad's county has been running 
> things just
> >> fine without a Count for quite a while.
> 
> What have you heard?

Nothing more than a remark by Vlad to Noish-Pa while convincing him to move
out to his new county. Basically, Noish-pa won't have to worry about
managing the place because the people living there have been managing just
fine without a sitting Count around.





From scott at cjhunter.com  Wed Sep  1 13:44:28 2004
From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 13:44:28 -0700
Subject: Dragaeran Pregnancies -- Length?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040901123318.1095A-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <04c701c49064$802defc0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>

> I've suggested before that the animal genes don't actually 
> affect the Dragaeran development; they are merely there as markers. 
> Aliera merely mentions the presence of the genes; she doesn't 
> go into how, or even if, they affect Dragaerans.

I think we have ample evidence that the animal genes DO have an effect. The
courage of the Dzur, the ferocity of the Dragon, the subtlety of the Yendi..
These things are "built-in" to each member of that House. They aren't merely
social constructs. They're an essential trait the members of that House are
born with to a greater or lesser extent. If the genes themselves were just
markers, then the Houses would eventually become homogenized, with only a
few exceptional members of a House being talented enough to give more than
lip service to that House's "gimmick". 






From gomi at speakeasy.net  Wed Sep  1 13:48:43 2004
From: gomi at speakeasy.net (Gomi no Sensei)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 13:48:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Dragaeran Pregnancies -- Length?
In-Reply-To: <04c701c49064$802defc0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
References: <04c701c49064$802defc0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0409011347040.3265@shell2.speakeasy.net>

On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Scott Schultz wrote:

> I think we have ample evidence that the animal genes DO have an effect.

[...]

It is not at all clear to me that these tendencies are genetic, rather
than cultural.

> These things are "built-in" to each member of that House. They aren't merely
> social constructs. They're an essential trait the members of that House are
> born with to a greater or lesser extent.

My current understanding of the texts does not support such an assertion,
but I'm prepared to be shown otherwise.

pe


From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  1 14:39:38 2004
From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:39:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Dragaeran Pregnancies -- Length?
In-Reply-To: <04c701c49064$802defc0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <20040901213938.70148.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Scott Schultz <scott at cjhunter.com> wrote:

> > I've suggested before that the animal genes don't actually 
> > affect the Dragaeran development; they are merely there as markers. 
> > Aliera merely mentions the presence of the genes; she doesn't 
> > go into how, or even if, they affect Dragaerans.
> 
> I think we have ample evidence that the animal genes DO have an effect.
> The
> courage of the Dzur, the ferocity of the Dragon, the subtlety of the
> Yendi..
> These things are "built-in" to each member of that House. They aren't
> merely
> social constructs. They're an essential trait the members of that House
> are
> born with to a greater or lesser extent. If the genes themselves were
> just
> markers, then the Houses would eventually become homogenized, with only
> a
> few exceptional members of a House being talented enough to give more
> than
> lip service to that House's "gimmick". 

I agree that the characteristics of each House are genetic, but
nothing says that those characteristics come from the *animal*
genes that are built in.  Could issola possibly have genes for
courtliness, jhegaala for shifting (as distinct from a fixed
sequence of metamorphoses), or yendi for trickery?  I prefer the
theory that the animal genes are markers and the Jenoine
gengineered the Orca to like the sea without using orca genes.
(The orca don't have to be attracted to the sea--they're stuck
there.)

Jerry Friedman



		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 


From scott at cjhunter.com  Wed Sep  1 14:44:51 2004
From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:44:51 -0700
Subject: Dragaeran Pregnancies -- Length?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0409011347040.3265@shell2.speakeasy.net>
Message-ID: <05cd01c4906c$efe841a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>


> > These things are "built-in" to each member of that House. 
> They aren't 
> > merely social constructs. They're an essential trait the members of 
> > that House are born with to a greater or lesser extent.
> 
> My current understanding of the texts does not support such 
> an assertion, but I'm prepared to be shown otherwise.


Hmmm... I'm not sure they can be shown directly. If nothing else, these
conversations are a way of highlighting just how little we actually know
about Dragaeran society at-large.

Let's try this - Some of the House traits, such as courage and ferocity, can
potentially be taught by society. Other traits, though, are traits that
cannot be learned. The cleverness of the Tiassa, the subtlety of the Yendi,
the sorcerous skill of the Athyra. All the schooling and conditioning in the
world won't help if you don't already have the capacity. These are all
traits that those Houses are pre-disposed to. You can do all the PR you want
about how clever the Tiassa are. If the reality consistently failed to match
up with the legend then the legend would eventually fade or become a joke.
This is clearly not the case. People take a Tiassa's cleverness for granted.
We see this repeatedly in the Paarfiad (granted it's not the most unbiased
of accounts) where our heroes get into a fix and, rather than panicing, they
say "Well, what then, we have a Tiassa with us don't we? He'll figure a way
out of it." and Khaavren nearly always manages. It's not because he was
taught to be clever or because he's exceptional for his House or because
society expects him to be clever and therefore sees cleverness where it
doesn't actually exist. It's just that, being born a Tiassa, he has an
innate wit, curiosity and an ability to put two and two together to make
five. The Tiassa don't have a monopoly on those traits but they have them as
a pre-disposition where the other Houses have them simply as a matter of
luck.

Ditto for the Yendi and the Athyra. Yendi are not known simply for their
plotting. They're known for their subtlety and the complexity of their
plots. If that legendary subtlety was merely a legend, then the number of
failed and painfully obvious Yendi plots would eventually overcome the
legend. Likewise, if the Athyra were simply of average skill at sorcery,
even a store of secret knowledge wouldn't keep the rest of Dragaera from
eventually catching up with them. Instead, we see that even in modern times
an Athyra sorceror is respected and feared as one of the more powerful and
dangerous beings around. When mention is made of a sorceror becoming a god,
it's nearly always with the qualification that it's an Athyra sorceror we're
talking about.

Heck, we can even look at the Issola. A great deal of Issola temperament is
based upon years of conditioning and training. Even so, those of House
Issola are super-humanly polite and affable. If it was only a matter of
social mores, then there ought to be a lot of abberations and drop-outs.
There ought to be Issola warlords and Issola warriors. The legend of the
vaunted Issola courtesy would become attached to the Diplomatic Corp. or the
Butler School instead of the race as a whole. 





From scott at cjhunter.com  Wed Sep  1 14:49:44 2004
From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:49:44 -0700
Subject: Dragaeran Pregnancies -- Length?
In-Reply-To: <20040901213938.70148.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <05f401c4906d$9e2ab310$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>


> I agree that the characteristics of each House are genetic, 
> but nothing says that those characteristics come from the 
> *animal* genes that are built in.  Could issola possibly have 
> genes for courtliness, jhegaala for shifting (as distinct 
> from a fixed sequence of metamorphoses), or yendi for 
> trickery?  I prefer the theory that the animal genes are 
> markers and the Jenoine gengineered the Orca to like the sea 
> without using orca genes. (The orca don't have to be 
> attracted to the sea--they're stuck
> there.)

Actually, I'm pretty sure Aliera says as much but I have no text handy to
quote.

At any rate, I don't quite see the point of modeling a behavior after an
animal, inserting an animal gene as a marker, and then implementing the
behavior using ordinary "human" genes.

Why do you prefer the marker theory? 





From antuhej at hotmail.com  Wed Sep  1 15:02:28 2004
From: antuhej at hotmail.com (Henrik Jonsson)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 00:02:28 +0200
Subject: On lords of various houses...
References: <042401c49063$1b9aac20$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <BAY8-DAV49R3tKkiZDh0003026a@hotmail.com>


On a related note to the "Joining a House"-thread, I'd like
to ask a question I've been wondering about.

We read about Dzurlords and Dragonlords... What about Hawklords?
Orcalords? Issolalords? Where are they hiding? :-)

There's definitely a difference between being "merely" Dzur and
being a Dzurlord, right? Between being "merely" a Dragon and 
a Dragonlord, n'est pas? So, why is this distinction so sorely
lacking in all the other Houses?

If we understood this, I think it would tell us something about
Dragaerans... ;-)

/Henrik



From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com  Wed Sep  1 15:24:25 2004
From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 15:24:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Dragaeran Pregnancies -- Length?
In-Reply-To: <05f401c4906d$9e2ab310$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <20040901222425.37637.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Scott Schultz <scott at cjhunter.com> wrote:

> 
> > I agree that the characteristics of each House are genetic, 
> > but nothing says that those characteristics come from the 
> > *animal* genes that are built in.  Could issola possibly have 
> > genes for courtliness, jhegaala for shifting (as distinct 
> > from a fixed sequence of metamorphoses), or yendi for 
> > trickery?  I prefer the theory that the animal genes are 
> > markers and the Jenoine gengineered the Orca to like the sea 
> > without using orca genes. (The orca don't have to be 
> > attracted to the sea--they're stuck
> > there.)
> 
> Actually, I'm pretty sure Aliera says as much but I have no text handy
> to quote.

The way I remember it, she says it was a theory.  Booksearch suggests
it's chapter 9 of _Jhereg_ but I can't find the exact line (and my
copy is AFM, i.e., away from me).

> At any rate, I don't quite see the point of modeling a behavior after an
> animal, inserting an animal gene as a marker, and then implementing the
> behavior using ordinary "human" genes.
> 
> Why do you prefer the marker theory? 

Because the Dragaeran characteristics are *like* the animal
characteristics but not the same.  Thus issola have genes for
elegant egret-like shape and plumage and for hunting by standing
still and then striking quickly, but I don't see how you can use
such genes in engineering a humanoid to have elegant and polite
behavior that might lull one's adversary.  There's simply no
connection between long necks and consideration for others.
The same goes for many other Houses.

A more technical point is that you wouldn't expect one animal's
gene to function the same way when spliced into another animal.
For instance, I could believe that Dzur are aggressive for the
same reason the dzur are--say, for the sake of simplicity, 
testosterone levels.  But to use dzur genes to make aggressive
Dragaerans, you'd need their gene for their version of
testosterone, their genes and promoters that control the levels,
their gene for the receptor, and all this functions in dzur the
way it does because of their testosterone metabolism and
their brain structure.  Maybe you could bring in the genes that
control all that and make humans more like dzur.  But I imagine
it would be far easier to just increase the production of
testosterone in humans by making one change.  And throw in a bit
of dzur DNA for a marker if it pleased you.

-- 
Jerry Friedman


		
_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush


From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM  Wed Sep  1 15:27:17 2004
From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 15:27:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: On lords of various houses...
Message-ID: <200409012227.i81MRHRM027098@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com>

/Henrik wrote:
> We read about Dzurlords and Dragonlords... What about Hawklords?
> Orcalords? Issolalords? Where are they hiding? :-)

Isn't Daymar a Hawklord?  Ya gotta be careful on this
list when leaving Daymar out.  He has many fans
due, I believe, to his glomability (glominess?). <grin>

Chris

"There is a difference between honesty 
and brutal insensitivity."
  ~ Wendy O-Matik



From davids at Kithrup.COM  Wed Sep  1 15:54:16 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 15:54:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Dragaeran Pregnancies -- Length?
In-Reply-To: <20040901222425.37637.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040901153048.26549A-100000@kithrup.com>

On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Jerry Friedman wrote:

>--- Scott Schultz wrote:
>> 
>> Why do you prefer the marker theory? 
>
>Because the Dragaeran characteristics are *like* the animal
>characteristics but not the same.

[...]

>
>A more technical point is that you wouldn't expect one animal's
>gene to function the same way when spliced into another animal.
>For instance, I could believe that Dzur are aggressive for the
>same reason the dzur are--say, for the sake of simplicity, 
>testosterone levels.  But to use dzur genes to make aggressive
>Dragaerans, you'd need their gene for their version of
>testosterone, their genes and promoters that control the levels,
>their gene for the receptor, and all this functions in dzur the
>way it does because of their testosterone metabolism and
>their brain structure.  Maybe you could bring in the genes that
>control all that and make humans more like dzur.  But I imagine
>it would be far easier to just increase the production of
>testosterone in humans by making one change.  And throw in a bit
>of dzur DNA for a marker if it pleased you.
>

An excellent argument, and one that I entirely agree with.

My own example was with dragons and House Dragon.  While one one
might say they both demonstrate aggression and territoriality, the
similarity is rather superficial.  Note that dragons are *solitary*
animals.  They may fight to defend their area, but they don't group
together in armies to extend their territory and hold it, in direct
contrast to the behavior of members of House Dragon.

Or consider House Orca.  Is there anything about orca that suggest
that they have any trait that translates to mercantalism?  For that
matter, do chreotha trade, do teckla perform agriculture?

In all the cases that I can think of, the similarity between animal
and House is rather superficial.  So while the Houses may have some
stereotypical traits that are genetically inherited, it is
reasonable to conclude that the traits are probably distinct from
the animal genes.

Unless, of course, there is magic going on.

Hmm.  What if it is the Cycle that uses the animal genes as markers
to turn on the appropriate character traits, in conjunction with
the individuals' own genetics?  That's an interesting notion, which
I will have to ponder a bit more. 




From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Wed Sep  1 17:05:25 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 17:05:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <042401c49063$1b9aac20$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
References: <042401c49063$1b9aac20$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0409011703040.9000@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>



On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Scott Schultz wrote:

> Any time the borders expand, new land will come under the jurisdiction of
> the Empire. Someone has to be responsible for it. Not to mention that the
> beauracracy probably requires a certain amount of income that arrives
> independently of any House machinations.


Note that if the Empire were land-rich there ought to have been some
mention of this in the opening chapters of _FHYA_ and perhaps in _Orca_.



From howard at brazee.net  Wed Sep  1 17:08:35 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 18:08:35 -0600
Subject: Dragaeran Pregnancies -- Length?
In-Reply-To: <PJELIDFPLNDLDLNDKOAJIEONCDAA.warbi@warbi.net>
Message-ID: <000401c49080$fdfff440$b07ba8c0@Dad133>

warbi wrote:

>   Heh, point ceded on the age of menarche issue- I read quite some
> time ago about the earlier onset, but should have done a quick search
> on the age before I typed <bangs head on keyboard>.

Menarche is strongly associated in the amount and quality of light the girls
get.   Artificial light makes a difference.

So what kind of light do Dragaeran girls get?




From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Wed Sep  1 17:13:29 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 17:13:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Dragaeran Pregnancies -- Length?
In-Reply-To: <000401c49080$fdfff440$b07ba8c0@Dad133>
References: <000401c49080$fdfff440$b07ba8c0@Dad133>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0409011711210.9000@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>



On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Howard Brazee wrote:

> warbi wrote:
>
> >   Heh, point ceded on the age of menarche issue- I read quite some
> > time ago about the earlier onset, but should have done a quick search
> > on the age before I typed <bangs head on keyboard>.
>
> Menarche is strongly associated in the amount and quality of light the girls
> get.   Artificial light makes a difference.


Correlation does not imply causation...

In this context I've heard discussion of high-fat diet,
hormones in meat, ...


From warbi at warbi.net  Wed Sep  1 17:46:41 2004
From: warbi at warbi.net (warbi)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 17:46:41 -0700
Subject: Dragaeran Pregnancies -- Length?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0409011711210.9000@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <PJELIDFPLNDLDLNDKOAJEEPBCDAA.warbi@warbi.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: Philip Hart [mailto:philiph at slac.stanford.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 5:13 PM
To: Dragaera (E-mail)
Subject: RE: Dragaeran Pregnancies -- Length?




On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Howard Brazee wrote:

> warbi wrote:
>
> >   Heh, point ceded on the age of menarche issue- I read quite some
> > time ago about the earlier onset, but should have done a quick search
> > on the age before I typed <bangs head on keyboard>.
>
> Menarche is strongly associated in the amount and quality of light the
girls
> get.   Artificial light makes a difference.


Correlation does not imply causation...

In this context I've heard discussion of high-fat diet,
hormones in meat, ...

                 ---------

  That was what I have heard as well- that diet has more to do with it.  The
feeling being that the body "senses" the amount of energy available for
things like reproduction.  Due to higher caloric intake, the body feels that
it is ready to reproduce that much sooner.  That would also explain why many
women marathon runners experience amenorrhea.  The body senses that there
are no extra calories to divert to pregnancy and suppresses epithelial
build-up, ovulation, etc...    warbi



From Gaertk at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 17:53:15 2004
From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 20:53:15 -0400
Subject: Dragaeran Pregnancies -- Length?
Message-ID: <688112DD.5CE1733A.00048EA6@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/1/2004 8:08:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Howard Brazee" <howard at brazee.net> writes:

> Menarche is strongly associated in the amount and quality of 
> light the girls get.   Artificial light makes a difference.
>
> So what kind of light do Dragaeran girls get?

Orange.


--KG



From rct9911 at comcast.net  Wed Sep  1 18:04:30 2004
From: rct9911 at comcast.net (Rebecca)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:04:30 -0500
Subject: On lords of various houses...
References: <042401c49063$1b9aac20$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <BAY8-DAV49R3tKkiZDh0003026a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <007301c49088$cdd50be0$6601a8c0@BOB>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Henrik Jonsson" <antuhej at hotmail.com>
To: <dragaera at dragaera.info>
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 5:02 PM
Subject: On lords of various houses...


>
> On a related note to the "Joining a House"-thread, I'd like
> to ask a question I've been wondering about.
>
> We read about Dzurlords and Dragonlords... What about Hawklords?
> Orcalords? Issolalords? Where are they hiding? :-)
>
> There's definitely a difference between being "merely" Dzur and
> being a Dzurlord, right? Between being "merely" a Dragon and
> a Dragonlord, n'est pas? So, why is this distinction so sorely
> lacking in all the other Houses?

Actually, I don't think there is... there's no clear distinction between a
"Dzur" and a "Dzurlord." All Dzurs are lords; "Dzurlord" is just a polite
way of saying Dzur. The same applies to Dragons and Hawks. These houses get
the special distinction because of ease of pronunciation. It would be too
much trouble to say "Tiassalord" or "Lyornlord" just for polite
conversation.




From jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca  Wed Sep  1 18:24:41 2004
From: jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca (James Burbidge)
Date: 01 Sep 2004 21:24:41 -0400
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <20040901113721.50497.qmail@web53407.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040901113721.50497.qmail@web53407.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1094088283.1125.1.camel@ilmarin>

On Wed, 2004-09-01 at 07:37, S SHafer wrote:
> Spoiler for Sethra Lavode:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also wonder about reincarnation and house. 
> Vlad/Kieron certainly wasn't reincarnated back into
> his house (or even his race), but does house normally
> play some role in how/where a Dragaeran is
> reincarnated?

Vlad is a reincarnation of Dolivar, not Kieron, and Dolivar is the
archetypal Jhereg (although admittedly, earlier, a Dragon).  So
reincarnation in the examples we know about -- Vlad and Aliera --
ertainly seems to follow the Houses.



From mam at theworld.com  Wed Sep  1 18:54:08 2004
From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:54:08 -0400
Subject: On lords of various houses...
In-Reply-To: <007301c49088$cdd50be0$6601a8c0@BOB>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0409012144470.5570264-100000@shell01-g>

On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Rebecca wrote:

#From: "Henrik Jonsson" <antuhej at hotmail.com>
#>
#> We read about Dzurlords and Dragonlords... What about Hawklords?
#> Orcalords? Issolalords? Where are they hiding? :-)
#>
#> There's definitely a difference between being "merely" Dzur and
#> being a Dzurlord, right? Between being "merely" a Dragon and
#> a Dragonlord, n'est pas? So, why is this distinction so sorely
#> lacking in all the other Houses?
#
#Actually, I don't think there is... there's no clear distinction between a
#"Dzur" and a "Dzurlord." All Dzurs are lords; "Dzurlord" is just a polite
#way of saying Dzur. The same applies to Dragons and Hawks. These houses get
#the special distinction because of ease of pronunciation. It would be too
#much trouble to say "Tiassalord" or "Lyornlord" just for polite
#conversation.

I agree with the first part of Rebecca said: there's no difference
between a Dzur and a Dzurlord. Ditto for Dragonlords.

But it doesn't apply to all the Houses, in my opinion:

Although technically all the houses except the Teckla are "noble
houses", "only a few [of the 'noble houses'] ... contain any of the
aristocracy, and then only a few of that House" [Tek27; Paresh
speaking]. Kelly implies that the Houses of the Dragon, Dzur, and Lyorn
comprise the bulk of the aristocracy [Tek188]. The House of the Phoenix
is almost certainly also largely aristocratic, but they are the smallest
House and so do not count toward the "bulk". In fact, Paarfi takes for
granted the existence of bourgeoisie as well as nobility [FHYA285].
Vlad, technically a noble of the Jhereg, makes his living (for most of
his career that we've seen so far) as a mobster and an assassin.
[http://www.speakeasy.org/~mamandel/Cracks-and-Shards/characteristics.html#table]

-- Mark A. Mandel
   http://cracksandshards.com
   a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website
   [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]



From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 20:02:04 2004
From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 23:02:04 EDT
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
Message-ID: <1e8.2984b638.2e67e72c@aol.com>

Scott Schultz wrote:

> This last point also means that transfers are inherently
> self-limiting. If a Dzur successfully transferred to the Vallista, he
> would die childless. No self-respecting Dzur would choose him for a
> husband, and no self-respecting pureblood Vallista would choose him
> either. With no Vallista heir, his membership in the House would last
> one lifetime, then his property and titles would revert back to the
> House.

Howard Brazee wrote on August 31, 2004:
>At least if there isn't a way to change his genes over - which isn't a
>certainty.

Hi,

Sethra might be a good example of a change in genes.  A Dragon
that was changed by Druz Mountain or something into part Druz.  
That might explain why Druz heroes keep trying to kill her.  How
dare a Dragon/Druz live in Druz Mountain.

Could Sethra of the e'Lanya Dragon line?

 "e'Lanya blood" "grasp of tactics is without fail."
The Phoenix Guards page 131  

 

From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 20:08:01 2004
From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 23:08:01 EDT
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
Message-ID: <30.5f983cae.2e67e891@aol.com>

Howard Brazee wrote on August 31, 2004

>I wonder if one can arrange a reincarnation.

Ask the Lords of Judgment.

From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com  Wed Sep  1 21:53:03 2004
From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 00:53:03 EDT
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
Message-ID: <46.575316e2.2e68012f@aol.com>

On Wed, 2004-09-01 at 07:37, S SHafer wrote:
> Spoiler for Sethra Lavode:
> 
> 
> 
>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
 
Spoiler for future books and Vladiad and Paarfiad below 
 
 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
> 
> 
> 
> I also wonder about reincarnation and house. 
> Vlad/Kieron certainly wasn't reincarnated back into
> his house (or even his race), but does house normally
> play some role in how/where a Dragaeran is
> reincarnated?

James Burbidge wrote on Sept. 1, 2004

>Vlad is a reincarnation of D*, not Kieron, and D* is the
>archetypal Jhereg (although admittedly, earlier, a Dragon).  So
>reincarnation in the examples we know about -- Vlad and Aliera --
>ertainly seems to follow the Houses.

I replaced D's name with * because of Dragaera search.

I think S SHafer meant Vlad/e'Kieron Dragon line.

Did I mention Spoiler for future books and 
Vladiad and Paarfiad below? 





But I think Steven Brust's wants us to figure it out
or at least wonder and reflect about it.



I used to think Vlad was being punished for something really
horrible that he did when he was a Dragon and that he was the
only one reincarnated into another house.  I set up lots of 
rules and tried to find D* in Paarfiad. 


Try it.  It is fun.  It changes how you re-read the books.


I think it hurt my head.  


Keep reading if you want to see my ideas, but do not say
I did not warn you. 



I had thought D* was Piro(because he "appreciated a good meal")
and then I thought D* was Pel(because he acted like a Dragon 
and his eyes) which meant D* could not be Piro.  Then I 
thought it could be Aerich and I was worried for a bit that
Steven would make D* be Tazendra.  Then I got scared that
Vlad's son was going to turn out to be Kieron.  I settled
on Pel because I wanted D* to be Pel.  

Then I was trying to find something about the state of the
Law in the Phoenix Guards and came across a three-letter word.
Ah ha, but is it a clue or a trick.  Maybe D* is really this 
other guy. Both are friends of Sethra Lavode.  But doesn't 
the other guy really sound like someone else with a staff 
and big sword.  Ah ha, these two men are dead before Vlad 
is born, before Piro and before M*.  

Hmmm, in Five Hundred Years After a dead body with an Amulet 
of C*******--ph*enix stone or a ch*in with an Amulet....just like in 
Sethra Lavode...no mention of the color or what made of. 
Is something trying to get back to D*.  No mention of the
third dead body.  And what happened to candlebud?  I think
there is another book hiding in The Phoenix Guards or maybe
a book about a couple of hundred years before with a chapter
or two explaining the missing parts in The Phoenix Guards.

So I started re-reading The Phoenix Guards to look for more
clues on these two men and I started to see D* in lots of 
people. They cannot all be D*.  Now all of sudden this 
>from Issola made sense.

Issola page 41 paperback

"Consider those you know of who were once your family,
and those who mattered to you in a time too faded in the mist
for you to imagine, much less remember.  Kieron is gone now,
and remains in the Paths of the Dead awaiting his moment...
I think we were all, even then, marked out by the gods."

I threw out all my rules and kept just the rule that a soul
cannot be in two places at once. And sometimes you just have
to assume someone is dead like Pel or Piro.     

How many others are switching Houses?  Which one is D*?  Was
Cawti always an Easterner?  One of my earlier assumptions was
that there was a D* kept meeting up with his true love.  

Maybe no one else is being reincarnated into another House--
just D* Dragon to Vlad Easterner...with 250,000 years as a 
purple robe after meeting up with his brother in the Paths of 
the Dead.  

I hope I have not spoiled anything.  Or maybe everyone just 
stopped reading a while ago because this is so long.  Heh.

Have to sleep now.

Bye.

Linda G.

From antuhej at hotmail.com  Thu Sep  2 05:39:41 2004
From: antuhej at hotmail.com (Henrik Jonsson)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 14:39:41 +0200
Subject: On lords of various houses...
References: <042401c49063$1b9aac20$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <BAY8-DAV49R3tKkiZDh0003026a@hotmail.com> <007301c49088$cdd50be0$6601a8c0@BOB>
Message-ID: <BAY8-DAV23BEr8pkpLk00008da7@hotmail.com>

From: "Rebecca" <rct9911 at comcast.net>

> Actually, I don't think there is... there's no clear distinction between a
> "Dzur" and a "Dzurlord." All Dzurs are lords; "Dzurlord" is just a polite
> way of saying Dzur. The same applies to Dragons and Hawks. These houses 
> get
> the special distinction because of ease of pronunciation. It would be too
> much trouble to say "Tiassalord" or "Lyornlord" just for polite
> conversation.

I seem to remember, although I am at work now and can't access the book,
that in Dragon...

(...Do I need spoiler space for Dragon, btw? I hope not...)

.that in Dragon, Vlad was beaten up by "three Dragonlords" in his home.
Why would he keep referring to the punk Dragons that beat him up, in
his home, with this honorific title, while he talks to Kragar about
"You were a Dragon once, weren't you?" (Maybe in a separate book, I'm
not sure) if there wasn't a separation between a Dragonlord and a "mere"
Dragon person?

Maybe I'm misreading the books, and seeing things that aren't there, but
it does ring of a difference between the full "Dragonlord" and a mere 
"Dragon".

Also, it doesn't seem fair to the other houses that they're not allowed
to be called "lords" because of pronounciation issues. ;-) If that was
the case, why don't we see any "Yendilords"? After all, it's fairly easy
to pronounce and does roll off the tongue easier than "Dzurlord". ;-)

/Henrik




From melalvai at kemenel.org  Thu Sep  2 10:51:22 2004
From: melalvai at kemenel.org (Rachel L. Ruhlen)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 12:51:22 -0500
Subject: Dragaeran Pregnancies -- Length?
In-Reply-To: <PJELIDFPLNDLDLNDKOAJIEONCDAA.warbi@warbi.net>
Message-ID: <mailman.5.1157398845.1952.dragaera@dragaera.info>

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: warbi [mailto:warbi at warbi.net] 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 3:33 PM
> To: Dragaera List
> Subject: RE: Dragaeran Pregnancies -- Length?
> 
> 
> 
>               ---------
> 
>   Heh, point ceded on the age of menarche issue- I read quite 
> some time ago about the earlier onset, but should have done a 
> quick search on the age before I typed <bangs head on keyboard>.

Don't bang your head too hard. It's been in the news a lot lately, because
it's sensationalist to say "Girls are maturing earlier, whatever is the
world coming to!" But there is certainly something to be concerned about.
Onset of puberty in girls has accelerated, independent even of nutrition.
Average age of menarche hasn't changed, but the rest of it (hormone
fluctuations, breast development) is occurring earlier. The event that
really made headlines was when they changed the definition of "precocious
puberty" because too many young girls qualified. They had to say "This is
normal now" when an 8 year old white girl or 7 year old black girl shows
breast development (sorry, I don't know the ages for other races). Another
newsworthy and very interesting thing happened in Puerto Rico, when baby
girls as young as 2 years started turning up with breast development. That
is most likely due to pollutants that mimic hormones.

Not really anything to do with Dragaera, unless Dragaeran sorcery, which has
some effect on the air similar to air pollution, also creates pollution that
interferes with hormones. Possible, given that Dragaerans can use sorcery to
control their fertility.

Rachel 



From Gaertk at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 14:07:07 2004
From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 17:07:07 -0400
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
Message-ID: <0B8B241D.3AAA4B7A.00048EA6@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/1/2004 2:14:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Philip Hart <philiph at slac.stanford.edu> writes:


> Nice thought re Vlad, but post-_Phoenix_ doesn't his Countship
> (Countdom?  Countity? Countitude?) come directly from the 
> Empress, hence he reports to her?

I just re-read that bit, and it explicitly states that Szurke
County is inside the Duchy of Eastmanswatch.  There is no 
explicit comment re whom Vlad is answerable to.


--KG



From scott at cjhunter.com  Thu Sep  2 14:25:27 2004
From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 14:25:27 -0700
Subject: Dragaeran Pregnancies -- Length?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040901153048.26549A-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <086e01c49133$60951880$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>


> In all the cases that I can think of, the similarity between 
> animal and House is rather superficial.  So while the Houses 
> may have some stereotypical traits that are genetically 
> inherited, it is reasonable to conclude that the traits are 
> probably distinct from the animal genes.
> 
> Unless, of course, there is magic going on.
> 

Since there almost certainly IS magic going on, you can pretty much throw
your standard twenty-first-century Terran understanding of genetics out the
window. Aliera almost certainly uses sorcery to do her genetic scanning. The
Jenoine themselves are sorceror/magicians more than scientists in the sense
that we normally consider such. They're from another
universe/plane-of-existence and play by different rules. 

As someone pointed out earlier, we don't really know if Aliera and her
fellow geneticists really understand the concept of DNA. What they call
"genes" may very well be something metaphysical that has only a superficial
resemblance to what we call DNA.

When the Jenoine engineered the Dragaerans, it's likely that they engineered
them metaphysically as well as what we would think of as "genetic
engineering". From that perspective, the animal genes might be totally inert
>from the conventional bio-chemical standpoint yet be very active on the
metaphysical level. Even if the bio-engineering included no metaphysical
tampering, it's still a near-certainty that they used "magic" as one of
their tools. In our real-world genetics, you can't mix man and frog, and
even if you managed it you wouldn't get a frog-man. In fantasy magic-based
genetics,though, the magic is the hand-waving mechanism that lets you
achieve whatever result it is you want to achieve. You just accept that it's
"magical" and move on.

In the words of Don Bellisario (in reference to the fans of Quantum Leap
that dissected every episode in an effort to draw conclusions and
correlations from them) - "Don't examine this too closely."





From scott at cjhunter.com  Thu Sep  2 15:02:02 2004
From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 15:02:02 -0700
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0409011703040.9000@flora03.slac.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <092b01c49138$7d422720$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>


> Note that if the Empire were land-rich there ought to have 
> been some mention of this in the opening chapters of _FHYA_ 
> and perhaps in _Orca_.

The Empire probably isn't land-rich, in the sense that there's a lot of
unowned land lying around. However, for there to be Imperial Titles to hand
out, there has to be some imperial land for those titles to govern. 

It seems clear that each House has it's own governing body and its own
political agendas. Likewise, we have the example of the Jhereg who sell
titles willy nilly to anyone able to afford one, but which are still real
titles. If there was Imperial regulation of Jhereg titles, then it would
seem to be more difficult to acquire them and they should have more
importance attached to them than the governance of one square block of
Adhrilanka. (This is ignoring the possibility that, through long tradition,
the "Imperial Regulators" simply allow themselves to be bribed to hold the
Jhereg to a lower standard.)

Anyway, for there to be Jhereg titles that go unregulated by the government,
those titles must perforce be regulated by the House itself. If one house
regulates itself, the rest most likely operate similarly. Since titles are
associated with actual zones of control (land, peasants, resources) the
implication would be that House titles govern land that is controlled by
that House. From there we can see that for Imperial titles to exist, there
must be land associated with them that is controlled by the Throne and not
by any particular House.

This makes some sense when you consider that the Throne is not hereditary.
Under a traditional hereditary monarchy or dictatorship, all land belongs to
the Throne. In Dragaera, land belongs to the Houses and the Throne is merely
the seat of authority. If ALL of the available land belonged to the Houses,
then the only way for the Emperor to reward a vassal would be to take land
away from one of the other Houses. That pretty obviously would be bad for
the non-ruling Houses and could lead to civil war under the right
circumstances. For the sake of stability as well as commerce, the Throne
would require a certain number of "neutral" titles (with associated land)
that it can use as rewards and as bargaining chips. This also allows the
Empress to arbitrarily sub-divide regions without regard as to whether the
leige and vassal are of the same or even compatible Houses. A side benefit
is that this also means that there is plenty of "Federal Land", as someone
put it, for the Tekla to use during their turn in office.

That's my thinking on it. Feel free to point out any obvious holes.





From martin_wohlert at hotmail.com  Thu Sep  2 15:15:01 2004
From: martin_wohlert at hotmail.com (Martin Wohlert)
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 00:15:01 +0200
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
Message-ID: <BAY22-F418RuLNScEKR0009cd4b@hotmail.com>

Scott Schultz wrote:
> > Note that if the Empire were land-rich there ought to have
> > been some mention of this in the opening chapters of _FHYA_
> > and perhaps in _Orca_.
>
>The Empire probably isn't land-rich, in the sense that there's a lot of
>unowned land lying around. However, for there to be Imperial Titles to hand
>out, there has to be some imperial land for those titles to govern.

Why couldn't there be empty titles?
When Paul McCartney was knighted he didn't receive a bunch of farmers too, 
did he? ;)


Hello everyone, I'm a newbie here. *waves*

/Martin

_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. 
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail



From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net  Thu Sep  2 15:13:40 2004
From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 17:13:40 -0500
Subject: On lords of various houses...
In-Reply-To: <BAY8-DAV49R3tKkiZDh0003026a@hotmail.com>
References: <042401c49063$1b9aac20$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <BAY8-DAV49R3tKkiZDh0003026a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <41379B14.3030708@comcast.net>


Henrik Jonsson wrote:

>There's definitely a difference between being "merely" Dzur and
>being a Dzurlord, right? Between being "merely" a Dragon and 
>a Dragonlord, n'est pas? So, why is this distinction so sorely
>lacking in all the other Houses?
>
I'm not so sure about that.  My impression is that all Dragons, and all 
Dzur, are lords.  At the other end, no Teckla are lords, and no Teckla 
can be emperors; hence the Teckla Republic.  It has not been Revealed 
>from the Oracle as to the exact situation in the intermediate houses.  
Tiassa can be lords, so can Athyra (I would suspect they all are), and 
we have heard, I think, of Orca nobles, as well as any number of Orca 
thugs and seamen.  I've never heard of a Jhegalla lord, or a Chreotha.  
There are definitely Hawklords, if my memory serves me correctly.  As 
far as Phoenix go, there are only ever a tiny number of them; I would 
think they must all be nobles.  There does seem to be a heierarchy of 
Houses, and I suspect that the nobility of the highest members is 
dependent on the position of the house.

I have not bothered to look anything up on this . . . my impressions only.

Mia




From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net  Thu Sep  2 15:19:23 2004
From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 17:19:23 -0500
Subject: Congratulations are in order!
Message-ID: <41379C6B.7010504@comcast.net>


As published in Einblatt, the official news of the Minnesota Science 
Fiction Society:

   Steven Brust's Sethra Lavode is #7 on the August Locus hc bestseller
   list, and #9 on the Barnes & Noble/B. Dalton list in the same issue.


Congrats to our Author!!!  Long may he write!  (Inside sources say that he's making good progress on Dzur.)

Cheers!

Mia





From frank at exit.com  Thu Sep  2 15:37:08 2004
From: frank at exit.com (Frank Mayhar)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 15:37:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Dragaeran Pregnancies -- Length?
In-Reply-To: <086e01c49133$60951880$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <200409022237.i82Mb8ki081908@realtime.exit.com>

Scott Schultz wrote:
> In our real-world genetics, you can't mix man and frog, and

Um, this is no longer strictly true.  Take a look at research dealing with
so-called "transgenic" organisms.  The current state of the art allows us
to take a gene or sequence of genes from one creature and implant it into
another, even across Kingdom boundaries from animal to plant.

So if one wanted to "mix man and frog" it could certainly be done.

> even if you managed it you wouldn't get a frog-man.

That's just terminology.  If I bear genes derived from those of a frog
and those genes are physically expressed in some way, I might still
consider myself a man but someone else might have a different opinion.

> In fantasy magic-based
> genetics,though, the magic is the hand-waving mechanism that lets you
> achieve whatever result it is you want to achieve. You just accept that it's
> "magical" and move on.

Well...  Back to Arthur C. Clarke we are, eh?

Ribbet.
-- 
Frank Mayhar frank at exit.com	http://www.exit.com/
Exit Consulting                 http://www.gpsclock.com/
                                http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/


From howard at brazee.net  Thu Sep  2 15:52:28 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 16:52:28 -0600
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <092b01c49138$7d422720$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <000201c4913f$867bbd40$b07ba8c0@Dad133>


Anybody have any ideas of the populations of the various houses and how
densely populated the land is?




From scott at cjhunter.com  Thu Sep  2 16:05:31 2004
From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 16:05:31 -0700
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <BAY22-F418RuLNScEKR0009cd4b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <005b01c49141$5ae90960$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>

> Why couldn't there be empty titles?
> When Paul McCartney was knighted he didn't receive a bunch of 
> farmers too, 
> did he? ;)

There probably are some titles that are purley honorific. Vlad's is not.
He's the Count of (what I assume to be) a moderately sized county. One small
enough that the local town government is able to run things and the post of
Count is more of a royal sinecure than an actual managerial job. 

Interestingly, you'd think that if there were "empty" titles that the Jhereg
would be selling them left, right, and center. If Vlad's case is typical,
the Jhereg titles are bona-fide, lending some weight to the idea that there
really aren't any "empty" titles.




From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com  Thu Sep  2 16:24:56 2004
From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 16:24:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <005b01c49141$5ae90960$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <20040902232456.81714.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Scott Schultz <scott at cjhunter.com> wrote:

> > Why couldn't there be empty titles?
> > When Paul McCartney was knighted he didn't receive a bunch of 
> > farmers too, 
> > did he? ;)
> 
> There probably are some titles that are purley honorific. Vlad's is not.
> He's the Count of (what I assume to be) a moderately sized county. One
> small
> enough that the local town government is able to run things and the post
> of
> Count is more of a royal sinecure than an actual managerial job.

On the other hand, I suspect his baronetcy is "empty", that is, it
comes with no responsbilities or privileges.  The title of "Baronet
Taltos" was surely invented when Vlad's father bought in.

> Interestingly, you'd think that if there were "empty" titles that the
> Jhereg
> would be selling them left, right, and center. If Vlad's case is
> typical,
> the Jhereg titles are bona-fide, lending some weight to the idea that
> there
> really aren't any "empty" titles.

However, I strongly suspect that members of all the noble houses
have titles that are just as noble as Jhereg titles.  (Slight
evidence: when Vlad is pretending to be a Chreotha in _Orca_, the
Phoenix Guards call him "my lord"--till they stop being polite.)
That leaves the Teckla, and about the only way a Teckla could be
worse off is to have a Jhereg title and single himself out for
additional prejudice.

Just to weigh in, I think all Dzur are Dzurlords and the same for
Dragons and Hawks, and I seem to recall reading "Tiassalord"
somewhere--if so, them too.  Why do people sometimes use "-lord"
and sometimes not?  I sometimes say "black" and sometimes
"African American" (or other terms if the person isn't American);
I sometimes say "Indian", sometimes "American Indian", and
sometimes "Native American".  Depends on context and the tone
I'm after.

However, I have no idea why no one has yet mentioned a
Tsalmothlord, Issolalord, Iorichlord, or whatever.

And I think that when Paresh mentions the real aristocracy, he
means the people who act like the traditional image of
aristocrats--they live off rents because they're above work
or trade.  I don't think there's any connection between this
and "lord" or one's title.  Except the Lyorn, since somewhere
somebody says that most Lyorn are "Sir Soandso" because they
don't have fiefs, but they're the only house pedantic enough to
bother with this distinction.

Jerry Friedman


	
		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 


From davids at Kithrup.COM  Thu Sep  2 17:18:51 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 17:18:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <20040902232456.81714.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040902165914.7418A-100000@kithrup.com>

On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, Jerry Friedman wrote:

>
>And I think that when Paresh mentions the real aristocracy, he
>means the people who act like the traditional image of
>aristocrats--they live off rents because they're above work
>or trade.  I don't think there's any connection between this
>and "lord" or one's title.  Except the Lyorn, since somewhere
>somebody says that most Lyorn are "Sir Soandso" because they
>don't have fiefs, but they're the only house pedantic enough to
>bother with this distinction.
>

That's Paresh as well.  Booksearch says /Teckla/, chapter 2:

   Most of those in the House of the Lyorn are Knights, because
   only the Lyorns continue to treat titles as they were when first
   created, and Knight is a title that has no land associated with it.

This, of course, suggests that many, if not most, of the titles we
see are in fact mere fabrications.  I am pretty sure that that is
mentioned in /Orca/, about Orca titles, as well.

Amazon.com booksearch - Book of Athyra, page 281:

(Vlad is speaking)

   [...] it took me about half an hour to determine that neither a
   barony of Reega nor a county of Endra could be found in the
   area.  So I puttered around some more and found out that neither
   one actually existed-they were titles without places to go with
   them, which I suppose I should have expected of Orca.


While Arylle is a real Duchy, and Daavya is a real Barony, I think
Galstan may also be just such a fabrication.  Although I can't get
the booksearch to cooperate in disclosing this.  Or was it maybe
something Sethra Lavode said in /Paths of the Dead/, which is not
indexed in booksearch yet?

For some reason, I thought that Pel gave his title at some point in
/The Phoenix Guards/, but booksearch returned no hits in that book. 
Although he is introduced as the Duke of G_______ at some point,
when he is sparking Jenicor e'Terics, and possibly elsewhere. 

Khaavren appears to be noble despite his father having sold the
family lands.



From davids at Kithrup.COM  Thu Sep  2 17:28:45 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 17:28:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Memo to DDB
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040902171932.7418B-100000@kithrup.com>


On Sat Jul 31st, 2004, Steve Brust weblogged:

] I'll be staying in Minnesota for the entire run of the
] Renaissance Festival this year,

Hey David,

As long as Steve's in the area, don't miss the opportunity to
record him saying "Hwdf'rjaanci" and "Hirtrinkneff", and other
Dragaeran words, so you can update the pronunciation guide.

He wrote 'em, he should be able to *say* 'em.




From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Thu Sep  2 17:35:22 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 17:35:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Memo to DDB
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040902171932.7418B-100000@kithrup.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040902171932.7418B-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0409021731400.25286@flora05.slac.stanford.edu>

> As long as Steve's in the area, don't miss the opportunity to
> record him saying "Hwdf'rjaanci" and "Hirtrinkneff" [...]

Where's "Hirtrinkneff" from?  Sounds like "shepherdess boy" or something
in some dialect of bad German...


From Gaertk at aol.com  Thu Sep  2 18:16:50 2004
From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 21:16:50 -0400
Subject: Memo to DDB
Message-ID: <291C3EDB.2B2AEF29.00048EA6@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/2/2004 8:28:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, David Silberstein <davids at Kithrup.COM> writes:
 
> Hey David,
>
> As long as Steve's in the area, don't miss the opportunity to
> record him saying "Hwdf'rjaanci" and "Hirtrinkneff", and other
> Dragaeran words, so you can update the pronunciation guide.

And don't forget God-Boss (Tagichatn or whatever).  Vlad can't
even *spell* that name, never mind pronounce it.


--KG



From davids at Kithrup.COM  Thu Sep  2 18:19:12 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 18:19:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Memo to DDB
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0409021731400.25286@flora05.slac.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040902181254.14218B-100000@kithrup.com>

On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, Philip Hart wrote:

>> As long as Steve's in the area, don't miss the opportunity to
>> record him saying "Hwdf'rjaanci" and "Hirtrinkneff" [...]
>
>Where's "Hirtrinkneff" from?  Sounds like "shepherdess boy" or
>something in some dialect of bad German... 
>

Amazon search shows he's in the /Viscount of Adrilankha/.  Dramatis
Personae for /Paths of the Dead/ says he's assistant to Skinter.




From dd-b at dd-b.net  Thu Sep  2 20:16:15 2004
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 22:16:15 -0500
Subject: Memo to DDB
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040902171932.7418B-100000@kithrup.com> (David
 Silberstein's message of "Thu, 2 Sep 2004 17:28:45 -0700 (PDT)")
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040902171932.7418B-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <m2hdqgdou8.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>

David Silberstein <davids at Kithrup.COM> writes:

> On Sat Jul 31st, 2004, Steve Brust weblogged:
>
> ] I'll be staying in Minnesota for the entire run of the
> ] Renaissance Festival this year,

> As long as Steve's in the area, don't miss the opportunity to
> record him saying "Hwdf'rjaanci" and "Hirtrinkneff", and other
> Dragaeran words, so you can update the pronunciation guide.
>
> He wrote 'em, he should be able to *say* 'em.

I'll try to ambush him sometime.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From ballistica at cox.net  Fri Sep  3 08:00:15 2004
From: ballistica at cox.net (Donna)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 08:00:15 -0700
Subject: Memo to DDB
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040902171932.7418B-100000@kithrup.com> <m2hdqgdou8.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>
Message-ID: <001d01c491c6$b875da60$6401a8c0@jupiter>

> As long as Steve's in the area, don't miss the opportunity to
> record him saying "Hwdf'rjaanci" and "Hirtrinkneff", and other
> Dragaeran words, so you can update the pronunciation guide.


Could you please also record the prefix that denotes lineage:  e'Kieron,
e'Lanya, e'Barritt, e'Tenith, etc..?

Incidentally, is that an exclusively Dragonish thing?

Donna



From bryann at bryann.net  Fri Sep  3 10:38:17 2004
From: bryann at bryann.net (Bryan Newell)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 12:38:17 -0500
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <0B8B241D.3AAA4B7A.00048EA6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <ADEBKIJABDCGEEPKAIOFOEHIDDAA.bryann@bryann.net>

> > Nice thought re Vlad, but post-_Phoenix_ doesn't his Countship
> > (Countdom?  Countity? Countitude?) come directly from the
> > Empress, hence he reports to her?
>
> I just re-read that bit, and it explicitly states that Szurke
> County is inside the Duchy of Eastmanswatch.  There is no
> explicit comment re whom Vlad is answerable to.
>
>
> --KG

I wonder if Aliera reclaimed the Duchy of Eastmanswatch when she returned.
Would that make Vlad *her* vassal?  :)

Bryan




From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Fri Sep  3 10:45:13 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:45:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <ADEBKIJABDCGEEPKAIOFOEHIDDAA.bryann@bryann.net>
References: <ADEBKIJABDCGEEPKAIOFOEHIDDAA.bryann@bryann.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0409031041020.20035@flora04.slac.stanford.edu>



On Fri, 3 Sep 2004, Bryan Newell wrote:

> I wonder if Aliera reclaimed the Duchy of Eastmanswatch when she returned.

What's the Duchy worth (from a military perspective) after Khaavren's treaty?
I'd think Aliera would have little interest in a boring responsibility.




From Gaertk at aol.com  Fri Sep  3 15:39:47 2004
From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 18:39:47 -0400
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
Message-ID: <0905C589.4C780E76.00048EA6@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/3/2004 1:38:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Bryan Newell" <bryann at bryann.net> writes:

>> I just re-read that bit, and it explicitly states that Szurke
>> County is inside the Duchy of Eastmanswatch.  There is no
>> explicit comment re whom Vlad is answerable to.
>>
> I wonder if Aliera reclaimed the Duchy of Eastmanswatch when 
> she returned.  Would that make Vlad *her* vassal?  :)

Reclaim?  Her father was still Duke when she went into limbo.
(Well, Paarfi says he died a few seconds earlier, but still...)


--KG



From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com  Fri Sep  3 16:14:29 2004
From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:14:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Dragaeran Pregnancies -- Length?
In-Reply-To: <086e01c49133$60951880$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <20040903231429.64063.qmail@web50708.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Scott Schultz <scott at cjhunter.com> wrote:

> 
> > In all the cases that I can think of, the similarity between 
> > animal and House is rather superficial.  So while the Houses 
> > may have some stereotypical traits that are genetically 
> > inherited, it is reasonable to conclude that the traits are 
> > probably distinct from the animal genes.
> > 
> > Unless, of course, there is magic going on.
> > 
> 
> Since there almost certainly IS magic going on, you can pretty much
> throw
> your standard twenty-first-century Terran understanding of genetics out
> the window.

Maybe.

> Aliera almost certainly uses sorcery to do her genetic scanning.

Undoubtedly.

> The
> Jenoine themselves are sorceror/magicians more than scientists in the
> sense
> that we normally consider such. They're from another
> universe/plane-of-existence and play by different rules.

I don't think we know that at all.  They apparently do experiments.

> As someone pointed out earlier, we don't really know if Aliera and her
> fellow geneticists really understand the concept of DNA.

True, just like Mendel and other early geneticists.

> What they call
> "genes" may very well be something metaphysical that has only a
> superficial resemblance to what we call DNA.

That's also possible, but it's a much bigger speculative step.  I
take it you're thinking of something like original sin that
supposedly gets passed from parent to child in some non-physical
way.

You want to understand "gene" differently in the Dragaeran books;
I want to understand "magic" differently.  As far as I can tell,
Dragaeran "magic" could simply be physics that's unknown to us.
(Someone, I forget who, mentioned Clarke's Law.)  The Jenoine would
then have found some way to create or amplify a connection between
human brains and some bafflegab field.  It's entirely possible then
that what Aliera means by "gene" is what we mean; she just has
better ways of perceiving them than we do and the Jenoine have
better ways of manipulating them.

Your picture *might* be vulnerable to the same argument I used
against the idea that Dragaerans have functioning animal genes.
Maybe the metaphysical genes of animals (whatever they are) are
just as interdependent as the physical genes and just as hard to
transplant in a sensible way.  Then again, maybe not.

> When the Jenoine engineered the Dragaerans, it's likely that they
> engineered
> them metaphysically as well as what we would think of as "genetic
> engineering". From that perspective, the animal genes might be totally
> inert
> from the conventional bio-chemical standpoint yet be very active on the
> metaphysical level.

Like acting by means of sympathetic magic?  That hadn't occurred to
me.  Nonetheless, I don't remember any evidence of sympathetic magic
in Dragaera.  It's used in witchcraft, but Vlad says witchcraft is
just a way of focusing psychic energy; the witch uses sympathetic
magic for its effect on his/her mind.

> Even if the bio-engineering included no metaphysical
> tampering, it's still a near-certainty that they used "magic" as one of
> their tools. In our real-world genetics, you can't mix man and frog, and
> even if you managed it you wouldn't get a frog-man. In fantasy
> magic-based
> genetics,though, the magic is the hand-waving mechanism that lets you
> achieve whatever result it is you want to achieve. You just accept that
> it's
> "magical" and move on.
> 
> In the words of Don Bellisario (in reference to the fans of Quantum Leap
> that dissected every episode in an effort to draw conclusions and
> correlations from them) - "Don't examine this too closely."

Not bad advice for this list.  I'll have to agree with you that we
don't know.

Since I don't have a copy of _Jhereg_ on hand, I still hope
someone will post the bit from Chapter 9 about animal genes.  The
way I remember it, Aliera is not even certain that the Jenoine
did splice animal genes into the Dragaerans.

Jerry Friedman


		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Fri Sep  3 20:36:39 2004
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 22:36:39 -0500
Subject: Somebody want to come up with the word list for more pronunciation
 recordings?
Message-ID: <m2pt52aens.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>

I'd love somebody to volunteer to come up with a list of the words
"we" want Steven to pronounce to add to the pronunciation guide.  

This would have to be done in about a week.  It should include all the
words already in the guide but without recordings.  It should be
arranged somewhat in priority order, dunno how fast we'll get through
it.  The words already in the guide without recordings should have a
fairly high priority.  I'd want *you* to check the spellings against
at least one book.  I'm not promising we'll get all of them actually
recorded any time soon (though Steven being in town for a while
certainly presents opportunities).  You can no doubt make yourself
unpopular by using a broadly-despised principle to order the list by
:-). 

Anybody interested?
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Fri Sep  3 23:24:11 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 23:24:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Somebody want to come up with the word list for more pronunciation recordings?
In-Reply-To: <m2pt52aens.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>
References: <m2pt52aens.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0409032320530.16244@flora01.slac.stanford.edu>



On Fri, 3 Sep 2004, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

> I'd love somebody to volunteer to come up with a list of the words
> "we" want Steven to pronounce to add to the pronunciation guide.

Could you just have him read the Texts into a recorder?
Say in chronological order?
Without rolling all the Rs like they did in TLOTR with "Morrrdorrr"?




From jhereg69 at earthlink.net  Sat Sep  4 10:22:34 2004
From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez)
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 13:22:34 -0400
Subject: Somebody want to come up with the word list for more pronunciation recordings?
In-Reply-To: <m2pt52aens.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>
References: <m2pt52aens.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>
Message-ID: <4139F9DA.3020107@earthlink.net>

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

> I'd love somebody to volunteer to come up with a list of the words
> "we" want Steven to pronounce to add to the pronunciation guide.  
> 
> This would have to be done in about a week.  It should include all the
> words already in the guide but without recordings.  It should be
> arranged somewhat in priority order, dunno how fast we'll get through
> it.  The words already in the guide without recordings should have a
> fairly high priority.  I'd want *you* to check the spellings against
> at least one book.  I'm not promising we'll get all of them actually
> recorded any time soon (though Steven being in town for a while
> certainly presents opportunities).  You can no doubt make yourself
> unpopular by using a broadly-despised principle to order the list by
> :-). 
> 
> Anybody interested?

I'll do it. I've already got a small list of words that aren't included 
in the guide that I'd like to see, and I'd love for people to add to it.

BTW, my list of names/words that aren't in the guide are:

Dri'Chazik a Tukknaro Dzur
Hwdf'rjaanci
Tagichatn
Kathana e'Marish'Chala
Jenicor e'Terics

Jose (no, that's not one of the words)
-- 
Jose Marquez            \  Cthulhu 2004
jhereg69 at hackwater.com   \  Why vote for
http://www.hackwater.com  \  the lesser evil?



From dd-b at dd-b.net  Sat Sep  4 10:46:40 2004
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 12:46:40 -0500
Subject: Somebody want to come up with the word list for more
 pronunciation recordings?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0409032320530.16244@flora01.slac.stanford.edu> (Philip
 Hart's message of "Fri, 3 Sep 2004 23:24:11 -0700 (PDT)")
References: <m2pt52aens.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.58.0409032320530.16244@flora01.slac.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <m2k6va6i67.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>

Philip Hart <philiph at slac.stanford.edu> writes:

> On Fri, 3 Sep 2004, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>
>> I'd love somebody to volunteer to come up with a list of the words
>> "we" want Steven to pronounce to add to the pronunciation guide.
>
> Could you just have him read the Texts into a recorder?
> Say in chronological order?

Probably not; I doubt we'll have *that* much time!
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From dd-b at dd-b.net  Sat Sep  4 12:13:37 2004
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 14:13:37 -0500
Subject: Somebody want to come up with the word list for more
 pronunciation recordings?
In-Reply-To: <4139F9DA.3020107@earthlink.net> (Jose Marquez's message of
 "Sat, 04 Sep 2004 13:22:34 -0400")
References: <m2pt52aens.fsf@gw.dd-b.net> <4139F9DA.3020107@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <m21xhh7spq.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>

Jose Marquez <jhereg69 at earthlink.net> writes:

> David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>
>> I'd love somebody to volunteer to come up with a list of the words
>> "we" want Steven to pronounce to add to the pronunciation guide.
>> This would have to be done in about a week.  It should include all
>> the
>> words already in the guide but without recordings.  It should be
>> arranged somewhat in priority order, dunno how fast we'll get through
>> it.  The words already in the guide without recordings should have a
>> fairly high priority.  I'd want *you* to check the spellings against
>> at least one book.  I'm not promising we'll get all of them actually
>> recorded any time soon (though Steven being in town for a while
>> certainly presents opportunities).  You can no doubt make yourself
>> unpopular by using a broadly-despised principle to order the list by
>> :-). Anybody interested?
>
> I'll do it. I've already got a small list of words that aren't
> included in the guide that I'd like to see, and I'd love for people to
> add to it.
>
> BTW, my list of names/words that aren't in the guide are:
>
> Dri'Chazik a Tukknaro Dzur
> Hwdf'rjaanci
> Tagichatn
> Kathana e'Marish'Chala
> Jenicor e'Terics

Okay, you've got it.  

I'd like a usable list by let's say noon on 18-Sep-2004; if you want
to keep on after that, adding to the list, there probably will be
ongoing need for the list for a while yet.

While I forgot to say so initially, I did intend to suggest you should
accept suggestions from others, and I'm glad to see you proposing that
approach :-). 

Don't forget the job includes checking the spelling in at least one
book!  And don't forget to grab the words already in the guide but
without recorded pronunciations.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From Gaertk at aol.com  Sun Sep  5 17:00:12 2004
From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 20:00:12 -0400
Subject: Somebody want to come up with the word list for more pronunciation recordings?
Message-ID: <2A4FF73C.3D439676.00048EA6@aol.com>

Jose Marquez <jhereg69 at earthlink.net> writes:

> I'll do it. I've already got a small list of words that aren't
> included in the guide that I'd like to see, and I'd love for 
> people to add to it.

Here's a few more; low priority, I've already verified the
spelling:

Cly!ng Fr'ngtha
G'hair of Clyferns
Jggo!f'tha


--KG



From lady_mage16 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep  6 18:41:16 2004
From: lady_mage16 at yahoo.com (Y Y)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 18:41:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: On lords of various houses...
In-Reply-To: <41379B14.3030708@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20040907014116.62515.qmail@web51108.mail.yahoo.com>

My memory may be playing tricks on me, but I seem to remember Vlad thinking aloud to himself/introducing Morrolan or Aliera and making a distinction between dragon and dragonlord:
 
(some characteristic) is rare in a dragon, even more so in a dragonlord...
 
Like I said, my memory may be playing tricks on me, or Vlad could be... you know, Vlad.

Mia McDavid <mia_mcdavid at comcast.net> wrote:

Henrik Jonsson wrote:

>There's definitely a difference between being "merely" Dzur and
>being a Dzurlord, right? Between being "merely" a Dragon and 
>a Dragonlord, n'est pas? So, why is this distinction so sorely
>lacking in all the other Houses?
>
I'm not so sure about that. My impression is that all Dragons, and all 
Dzur, are lords. At the other end, no Teckla are lords, and no Teckla 
can be emperors; hence the Teckla Republic. It has not been Revealed 
>from the Oracle as to the exact situation in the intermediate houses. 
Tiassa can be lords, so can Athyra (I would suspect they all are), and 
we have heard, I think, of Orca nobles, as well as any number of Orca 
thugs and seamen. I've never heard of a Jhegalla lord, or a Chreotha. 
There are definitely Hawklords, if my memory serves me correctly. As 
far as Phoenix go, there are only ever a tiny number of them; I would 
think they must all be nobles. There does seem to be a heierarchy of 
Houses, and I suspect that the nobility of the highest members is 
dependent on the position of the house.

I have not bothered to look anything up on this . . . my impressions only.

Mia



		
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!

From acwest-dragaera at craigwest.net  Tue Sep  7 00:01:43 2004
From: acwest-dragaera at craigwest.net (A. Craig West)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 03:01:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: On lords of various houses...
In-Reply-To: <20040907014116.62515.qmail@web51108.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040907014116.62515.qmail@web51108.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0409070255520.10050@gizmo.bdkw>

On Mon, 6 Sep 2004, Y Y wrote:

> My memory may be playing tricks on me, but I seem to remember Vlad thinking
> aloud to himself/introducing Morrolan or Aliera and making a distinction
> between dragon and dragonlord:
>  
> (some characteristic) is rare in a dragon, even more so in a dragonlord...
>  
> Like I said, my memory may be playing tricks on me, or Vlad could be...
> you know, Vlad.

If I remember correctly, the distinction was between dragon and Dragon, I
he made it Dragonlord to make the difference clearer. That is, the dragon of
the quote refers to the animal, the Dragonlord refers to a member of the
house...

Unfortunately, booksearch isn't working for me, possibly because I am using
firefox...

-- 
Craig West         Ph: (416) 666-1645	|  It's not a bug,
acwest-sig at craigwest.net              	|  It's a feature...


From scs at di.org  Tue Sep  7 12:27:20 2004
From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 15:27:20 -0400
Subject: Want to be an extra in 'Glory Road'?
Message-ID: <20040907192720.GC24681@lokkur.dexter.mi.us>

No, the subject is not a joke.  I just got off the phone with Rene
Gobeyn.  Liz Coulon of Louisiana Casting is look for 2000 extras,
mostly white males, to be in the film version of Robert Heinleins
"Glory Road."  Pay is $50 a day, and you've got to get your own way
back and forth to Louisiana.  Filming will split between being right
outside of New Orleans and in Baton Rouge, LA.  If you're interested,
please call Liz Coulon, 504-488-8992.

Please, no questions -- you now know as much as I do.

Please feel free to distribute this.  I've sent it to the Dorsai
Irregulars, General Technics/PFRC, The Dead Canaries, and Dragaera.
Try to avoid duplicates, OK?  :-)

Steve
-- 
"Lloyd's not a political junkie, but he's definately a user."
   -- unnamed friend speaking of her husband, July 2004


From bio_phy at hotmail.com  Tue Sep  7 14:03:34 2004
From: bio_phy at hotmail.com (Johne Cook)
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 16:03:34 -0500
Subject: Want to be an extra in 'Glory Road'?
Message-ID: <BAY10-F9sRmuOE5thPZ00007f69@hotmail.com>

>No, the subject is not a joke.  I just got off the phone with Rene
>Gobeyn.  Liz Coulon of Louisiana Casting is look for 2000 extras,
>mostly white males, to be in the film version of Robert Heinleins
>"Glory Road."

Wow!  This is one of my favorite Heinlein stories (right up there with 
_Citizen of the Galaxy_ and _Have Spacesuit, Will Travel_).

This story starts off mundane but gets very interesting after that.  The 
thing is that with the interesting sexual mores they encounter along the 
way, this almost seems better fitted to being a mini-series on the Sci-Fi 
channel than a feature film.

Either way, I'm terrifically excited and wish I lived remotely close to 
Louisiana.

Johne Cook
Wisconsin, USA

_________________________________________________________________
Don?t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/



From mtiller at ntlworld.com  Tue Sep  7 15:00:23 2004
From: mtiller at ntlworld.com (Mark Tiller)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 23:00:23 +0100
Subject: Want to be an extra in 'Glory Road'?
In-Reply-To: <BAY10-F9sRmuOE5thPZ00007f69@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040907215750.VAJI29701.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@markmain>



-----Original Message-----
From: Johne Cook [mailto:bio_phy at hotmail.com] 
Sent: 07 September 2004 22:04
To: dragaera at dragaera.info
Subject: RE: Want to be an extra in 'Glory Road'?

>Either way, I'm terrifically excited and wish I lived remotely close to 
>Louisiana.

You ARE close...relatively   :-(  It's my favorite Heinlein story, although
Waldo and Magic Inc. are up there too.  If it was even remotely practical,
I'd be there.

Mark Tiller
England





From jtrager at keyway.net  Tue Sep  7 15:45:18 2004
From: jtrager at keyway.net (jtrager at keyway.net)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 15:45:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Want to be an extra in 'Glory Road'?
In-Reply-To: <20040907215750.VAJI29701.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@markmain>
References: <BAY10-F9sRmuOE5thPZ00007f69@hotmail.com>    <20040907215750.VAJI29701.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@markmain>
Message-ID: <14757.63.67.56.125.1094597118.squirrel@63.67.56.125>

I'd sa one of my three favorites, personally... Moon is a Harsh Mistress
and Starship Troopers are right up there, too.

I'm so tempted to chuck work and drive to Louisiana for this, but that
would be a fantastically stupid thing to do right now.  I think driving
>from southern Cali to Louisiana to be an extra qualifies as a silly
decision.

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Johne Cook [mailto:bio_phy at hotmail.com]
> Sent: 07 September 2004 22:04
> To: dragaera at dragaera.info
> Subject: RE: Want to be an extra in 'Glory Road'?
>
>>Either way, I'm terrifically excited and wish I lived remotely close to
>>Louisiana.
>
> You ARE close...relatively   :-(  It's my favorite Heinlein story,
> although
> Waldo and Magic Inc. are up there too.  If it was even remotely practical,
> I'd be there.
>
> Mark Tiller
> England
>
>
>



From howard at brazee.net  Tue Sep  7 15:55:02 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 16:55:02 -0600
Subject: Want to be an extra in 'Glory Road'?
In-Reply-To: <BAY10-F9sRmuOE5thPZ00007f69@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001c4952d$b60c68b0$b07ba8c0@Dad133>

Johne Cook wrote:
>> No, the subject is not a joke.  I just got off the phone with Rene
>> Gobeyn.  Liz Coulon of Louisiana Casting is look for 2000 extras,
>> mostly white males, to be in the film version of Robert Heinleins
>> "Glory Road."
>
> Wow!  This is one of my favorite Heinlein stories (right up there with
> _Citizen of the Galaxy_ and _Have Spacesuit, Will Travel_).
>
> This story starts off mundane but gets very interesting after that.
> The thing is that with the interesting sexual mores they encounter
> along the way, this almost seems better fitted to being a mini-series
> on the Sci-Fi channel than a feature film.

I always liked it a lot.   There aren't a lot of bit roles in it - do they
want us for the nude beach?   That's the only place I am thinking of for
crowd scenes.

> Either way, I'm terrifically excited and wish I lived remotely close
> to Louisiana.
>
> Johne Cook
> Wisconsin, USA
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Don?t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
> http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/





From jtrager at keyway.net  Tue Sep  7 16:04:35 2004
From: jtrager at keyway.net (jtrager at keyway.net)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 16:04:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Want to be an extra in 'Glory Road'?
Message-ID: <16993.63.67.56.125.1094598275.squirrel@63.67.56.125>

> I always liked it a lot.   There aren't a lot of bit roles in it - do
they want us for the nude beach?   That's the only place I am thinking
of for crowd scenes.

How about the party scene on Center where he's explaining "touch-twice
life" to the kitten?  I also wonder if they're going to show the battle
where he gets his scar (even though it's a bitty part of the book, I can
see hollywood types wanting to make more of it).




From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com  Tue Sep  7 18:47:02 2004
From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 21:47:02 EDT
Subject: Somebody want to come up with the word list for more pronunciation recording
Message-ID: <13e.81a440.2e6fbe96@aol.com>

Hi,

Jose Marquez, please add the following words to your additional word list.  

G'aereth
Gyorg

G'aereth             from The Phoenix Guards Cast of Characters list  
Gyorg  Lavode    from The Phoenix Guards Cast of Characters list

David, would it help you to have book name or Character list reference 
included? 

Page references?

Or for Steven, would it help to have the actual sentences from a book?  Like 
in a
a spelling bee?  Please use the word in a sentence.

Bye.

Linda G.

From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com  Tue Sep  7 19:27:34 2004
From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 22:27:34 EDT
Subject: On lords of various houses...
Message-ID: <1cd.2a5b5ab5.2e6fc816@aol.com>

On Mon, 6 Sep 2004, Y Y wrote:

> My memory may be playing tricks on me, but I seem to remember Vlad thinking
> aloud to himself/introducing Morrolan or Aliera and making a distinction
> between dragon and dragonlord:
>  
> (some characteristic) is rare in a dragon, even more so in a dragonlord...
>  
Hi,

Is this the quote your memory is based on?  

Book search working okay for me.  

"Aliera had golden hair--rare in a Dragaeran and almost unheard of in a 
Dragonlord."  The Book of the Jhereg, Jhereg Chapter 7 page 59.  Jhereg 
page 81.  Vlad goes on to talk about Aliera's eyes changing color.

Bye.

Linda G.

From dd-b at dd-b.net  Tue Sep  7 21:19:47 2004
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 23:19:47 -0500
Subject: Somebody want to come up with the word list for more
 pronunciation recording
In-Reply-To: <13e.81a440.2e6fbe96@aol.com> (FRIEDA2133@aol.com's message of
 "Tue, 7 Sep 2004 21:47:02 EDT")
References: <13e.81a440.2e6fbe96@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m2zn41gzoc.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>

FRIEDA2133 at aol.com writes:

> Hi,
>
> Jose Marquez, please add the following words to your additional word list.  
>
> G'aereth
> Gyorg
>
> G'aereth             from The Phoenix Guards Cast of Characters list  
> Gyorg  Lavode    from The Phoenix Guards Cast of Characters list
>
> David, would it help you to have book name or Character list reference 
> included? 

That's not a bad idea; at least *one* pointer to somewhere the word
actually appears.  

> Page references?

I wouldn't say no.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From Bato001 at aol.com  Thu Sep  9 14:36:19 2004
From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 17:36:19 EDT
Subject: Ubercon IV in Secaucus, NJ
Message-ID: <9e.14434f80.2e7226d3@aol.com>

Holy S*&$%!!!! I'm typing this e-mail from Secaucus!!!  My office is about 
two minutes from Crowne Plaza. Does anyone know what Ubercon IV is??

John D. Barbato, OD

From Bato001 at aol.com  Thu Sep  9 16:00:02 2004
From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 19:00:02 EDT
Subject: Ubercon IV in Secaucus, NJ
Message-ID: <79.3360c957.2e723a72@aol.com>

In a message dated 09/09/2004 5:50:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
scott at cjhunter.com writes:
http://www.ubercon.com

Happy gaming.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bato001 at aol.com [mailto:Bato001 at aol.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 1:36 PM
> To: Dragaera at dragaera.info
> Subject: RE: Ubercon IV in Secaucus, NJ
> 
> 
> Holy S*&$%!!!! I'm typing this e-mail from Secaucus!!!  My 
> office is about 
> two minutes from Crowne Plaza. Does anyone know what Ubercon IV is??
> 
> John D. Barbato, OD
> 
Too busy to play games. (Wife, two kids, new house under construction) I 
might score a ticket just to meet the man in the flesh though. I didn't see any 
guaranteed Brust activities on the website though.  Hey, if anyone goes and 
needs an eye doctor, my office is about 3 minutes from  Crowne Plaza.

John D. Barbato, OD 

Freed Vision Center 1301 Paterson Plank Rd. Secaucus, NJ 07094 (201)864-2965

From bonham15 at cox.net  Thu Sep  9 16:14:20 2004
From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 18:14:20 -0500
Subject: genetics and the soul pararectal!
References: <79.3360c957.2e723a72@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000301c496c2$bc915740$6601a8c0@user79dn2jmjai>

just an odd thought i pulled outta the old wazoo tonight while rereading 
taltos

there is a scene where vlad is having a sarcastic conversation with his 
current boss about his first 'job' and what he can and can't do. don't hit 
him in his flat, near his wife, temple etc... loiosh hisses at the boss 
during the exchange, prompting vlad to be startled at what the little 
lizardbrain was picking up from him  (p. 106 in my paperback (ace fantasy, 
march 1998).....

it is aliera's contention that actual animal dna is incorporated into 
'humans' and because easterners don't belong to houses they wouldn't have 
this dna, the jen enhanced their psychic abilities instead...

so. our dear assassin would be lacking this very necessary component to do 
well in a house.  enter the witch's predilection toward gathering a 
familiar.  what does he get? loiosh. who has the proper genetics and 
inherent characteristics to succeed in the jhereg, because he literally is 
one.

i'm guessing that mr. brust is very literal about animal genetics 
influencing individual behavior and creating a coherently behaving house. 
i'm pararectaling that the link of the witch's familiar is a 2 way street 
and that vlad has assimilated some of loiosh's traits just as loiosh picked 
up stuff from him, thereby giving him the genetic history consistent with 
his soul.  his soul *knew* it didn't have the proper dna in this body and 
did an end run around with witch-craft to get jhereg dna into the mix in 
some manner.  i'd guess since vlad doesn't know who he really is, its an 
unconsious pull that did it, much like his recognizing kieron later on in 
the paths of the dead.

caveat emptor on this idea, as i'm not sure how it interacts with the house 
anyone can buy into..... but perhaps having purer jhereg 'genetics' allowed 
vlad the talents to have his meteoric rise in the jhereg... and those same 
pure 'genetics' along with his 'human' soul and eastern body forced him into 
actions that pushed him morally past where he could be and abide within his 
chosen profession and house.

andy 



From BrianKeegan at masonline.net  Thu Sep  9 17:44:35 2004
From: BrianKeegan at masonline.net (Brian Keegan)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 20:44:35 -0400
Subject: Ubercon IV in Secaucus, NJ
Message-ID: <D67FCED0B4FDFB46A42DDF511C313933214542@mas-bloomfield.www.med-act-svcs.com>

wow I work in Bloomfield and lived in jersey city for 30 years (live in union now) nj

________________________________

From: Bato001 at aol.com [mailto:Bato001 at aol.com]
Sent: Thu 9/9/2004 7:00 PM
To: Dragaera at dragaera.info
Subject: Re: Ubercon IV in Secaucus, NJ



In a message dated 09/09/2004 5:50:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,
scott at cjhunter.com writes:
http://www.ubercon.com

Happy gaming.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bato001 at aol.com [mailto:Bato001 at aol.com]
> Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 1:36 PM
> To: Dragaera at dragaera.info
> Subject: RE: Ubercon IV in Secaucus, NJ
>
>
> Holy S*&$%!!!! I'm typing this e-mail from Secaucus!!!  My
> office is about
> two minutes from Crowne Plaza. Does anyone know what Ubercon IV is??
>
> John D. Barbato, OD
>
Too busy to play games. (Wife, two kids, new house under construction) I
might score a ticket just to meet the man in the flesh though. I didn't see any
guaranteed Brust activities on the website though.  Hey, if anyone goes and
needs an eye doctor, my office is about 3 minutes from  Crowne Plaza.

John D. Barbato, OD

Freed Vision Center 1301 Paterson Plank Rd. Secaucus, NJ 07094 (201)864-2965



From mam at theworld.com  Thu Sep  9 17:42:43 2004
From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 20:42:43 -0400
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <1e8.2984b638.2e67e72c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0409092042030.6359342-100000@shell01-g>

On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote:

#Could Sethra of the e'Lanya Dragon line?

No. Sethra is older than the Empire.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   http://cracksandshards.com
   a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website




From lazarus33pjf at cox.net  Fri Sep 10 13:14:43 2004
From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 13:14:43 -0700
Subject: genetics and the soul pararectal!
In-Reply-To: <000301c496c2$bc915740$6601a8c0@user79dn2jmjai>
References: <79.3360c957.2e723a72@aol.com> <000301c496c2$bc915740$6601a8c0@user79dn2jmjai>
Message-ID: <8m24k0dscpaqc6eaeut4g9fmlaje1cou0s@4ax.com>

On Thu, 9 Sep 2004 18:14:20 -0500, you wrote:

>just an odd thought i pulled outta the old wazoo tonight while rereading 
>taltos
>
>there is a scene where vlad is having a sarcastic conversation with his 
>current boss about his first 'job' and what he can and can't do. don't hit 
>him in his flat, near his wife, temple etc... loiosh hisses at the boss 
>during the exchange, prompting vlad to be startled at what the little 
>lizardbrain was picking up from him  (p. 106 in my paperback (ace fantasy, 
>march 1998).....
>
>it is aliera's contention that actual animal dna is incorporated into 
>'humans' and because easterners don't belong to houses they wouldn't have 
>this dna, the jen enhanced their psychic abilities instead...
>
>so. our dear assassin would be lacking this very necessary component to do 
>well in a house.  enter the witch's predilection toward gathering a 
>familiar.  what does he get? loiosh. who has the proper genetics and 
>inherent characteristics to succeed in the jhereg, because he literally is 
>one.
>
>i'm guessing that mr. brust is very literal about animal genetics 
>influencing individual behavior and creating a coherently behaving house. 
>i'm pararectaling that the link of the witch's familiar is a 2 way street 
>and that vlad has assimilated some of loiosh's traits just as loiosh picked 
>up stuff from him, thereby giving him the genetic history consistent with 
>his soul.  his soul *knew* it didn't have the proper dna in this body and 
>did an end run around with witch-craft to get jhereg dna into the mix in 
>some manner.  i'd guess since vlad doesn't know who he really is, its an 
>unconsious pull that did it, much like his recognizing kieron later on in 
>the paths of the dead.
>
>caveat emptor on this idea, as i'm not sure how it interacts with the house 
>anyone can buy into..... but perhaps having purer jhereg 'genetics' allowed 
>vlad the talents to have his meteoric rise in the jhereg... and those same 
>pure 'genetics' along with his 'human' soul and eastern body forced him into 
>actions that pushed him morally past where he could be and abide within his 
>chosen profession and house.
>
>andy 

My recollection is that House Jhereg is the only House with no genetic
input.  They were just the dregs and scavengers left over after all
the other houses formed, and sarcastically gave themselves a critter
name as well.

Not to say Loiosh hasn't helped Vlad a great deal, but not in the
manner you're thinking.


From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM  Fri Sep 10 14:03:09 2004
From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 14:03:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: genetics and the soul pararectal! 
Message-ID: <200409102103.i8AL39RM019291@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com>

lazarus wrote:
> My recollection is that House Jhereg is the only House with no genetic
> input.  They were just the dregs and scavengers left over after all
> the other houses formed, and sarcastically gave themselves a critter
> name as well.
> 
> Not to say Loiosh hasn't helped Vlad a great deal, but not in the
> manner you're thinking.

Perhaps I'm misremembering, but I believe the Jhereg
House started as an amalgam of the tribes that didn't
make it into Kieron's Top 15 list (they didn't count
the Teckla, who always seem to get the short end of
the lepip).  Aliera told Vlad that, over time, the
mixture of genes that made up the Jhereg formed it's
own detectable gene-strain (so to speak).

If that's the case (hey, she's been wrong before:), Jhereg
were originaly made from all the left-over animals.  
Hmm... wonder if there are any daar or kethna in there....

So, yes, I don't believe there are jhereg genes in the
Jhereg; they're kind of like the Dragaeran melting-pot.
Although, they do portray jhereg-like traits, which makes
me wonder how many dragaerans are influenced by genes,
and how many by memes.  Hmm, again.

:)
Chris

"Life is the nightmare that leaves its mark upon you
in order to prove that it is, in fact, real"
	-Thomas Ligotti- 'The Sect of the Idiot'




From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net  Fri Sep 10 15:57:32 2004
From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 17:57:32 -0500
Subject: genetics and the soul pararectal!
In-Reply-To: <8m24k0dscpaqc6eaeut4g9fmlaje1cou0s@4ax.com>
References: <79.3360c957.2e723a72@aol.com> <000301c496c2$bc915740$6601a8c0@user79dn2jmjai> <8m24k0dscpaqc6eaeut4g9fmlaje1cou0s@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <4142315C.1010401@comcast.net>



lazarus wrote:

>My recollection is that House Jhereg is the only House with no genetic
>input.  They were just the dregs and scavengers left over after all
>the other houses formed, and sarcastically gave themselves a critter
>name as well.
>  
>

I know.  But, Aliera says that the Jhereg by now has its own 
characteristic genome, which it, um, scavenged from its first members.  
All of their genes have melded by now, giving the House a recognizable 
genetic characteristic.

Don't know how this ties into a jhereg being particularly attuned to a 
Jhereg . . .




From mam at theworld.com  Fri Sep 10 18:01:26 2004
From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 21:01:26 -0400
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <005b01c49141$5ae90960$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0409102058140.60195-100000@shell01-g>

Sometimes spam, even Nigerian spam, is good for a laugh. Here's the
beginning of one of the many I was purging from my mailbox in between
reading through this thread. I have kept a couple of the header lines
because they're funny, and stuck prefixes on them to avoid confusing
anyone's mail readers.

##From: charity mike <charitymike2020 at ukrpost.net>
##Subject: RE;GOD BLESS YOU;

My Lordship/Friend,

 Calvary greetings in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, I am former mrs
Moju Bola,now Mrs Charity Mike, a widow to Late Paul Bola I am 72years
old, I am now a new Christian convert,suffering from long time cancer of
the breast.  From all indications, my condition is really deteriorating
and is quite




-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]




From mam at theworld.com  Fri Sep 10 18:04:14 2004
From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 21:04:14 -0400
Subject: Somebody want to come up with the word list for more pronunciation recordings?
In-Reply-To: <4139F9DA.3020107@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0409102102110.60195-100000@shell01-g>

Jose wrote:

#I'll do it. I've already got a small list of words that aren't included
#in the guide that I'd like to see, and I'd love for people to add to it.
#
#BTW, my list of names/words that aren't in the guide are:
#
#Dri'Chazik a Tukknaro Dzur
#Hwdf'rjaanci
#Tagichatn
#Kathana e'Marish'Chala
#Jenicor e'Terics

Nothing to add offhand. I pronounce these, but I would like to hear what
Steve makes of them, and anyway saying the unspeakable is a hobby of
mine.

-- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian,
   Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody
   a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel
   [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]




From mam at theworld.com  Fri Sep 10 17:55:01 2004
From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 20:55:01 -0400
Subject: On lords of various houses...
In-Reply-To: <41379B14.3030708@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0409102051300.60195-100000@shell01-g>

Mia wrote:

#I'm not so sure about that.  My impression is that all Dragons, and all
#Dzur, are lords.  At the other end, no Teckla are lords, and no Teckla
#can be emperors; hence the Teckla Republic.  It has not been Revealed
#from the Oracle as to the exact situation in the intermediate houses.
#Tiassa can be lords, so can Athyra (I would suspect they all are), and
#we have heard, I think, of Orca nobles, as well as any number of Orca
#thugs and seamen.  I've never heard of a Jhegalla lord, or a Chreotha.
#There are definitely Hawklords, if my memory serves me correctly.  As
#far as Phoenix go, there are only ever a tiny number of them; I would
#think they must all be nobles.  There does seem to be a heierarchy of
#Houses, and I suspect that the nobility of the highest members is
#dependent on the position of the house.
#
#I have not bothered to look anything up on this . . . my impressions only.

I was sure I had answered this question a little while ago, or rather,
given my take on it. But occasionally, for reasons I don't understand,
my posts don't get to the list. Mia, would you please reply to me
directly if you get this mail? I am sending it directly to you as well
as to the list.


	>>>

Although technically all the houses except the Teckla are "noble
houses", "only a few [of the 'noble houses'] ... contain any of the
aristocracy, and then only a few of that House" [Tek27; Paresh
speaking]. Kelly implies that the Houses of the Dragon, Dzur, and Lyorn
comprise the bulk of the aristocracy [Tek188]. The House of the Phoenix
is almost certainly also largely aristocratic, but they are the smallest
House and so do not count toward the "bulk". In fact, Paarfi takes for
granted the existence of bourgeoisie as well as nobility [FHYA285].
Vlad, technically a noble of the Jhereg, makes his living (for most of
his career that we've seen so far) as a mobster and an assassin. -- The
"noble's point" is a feature of the hairline typical of all but the
Teckla, apparently what we would call a "widow's peak": a downward point
at the center of the forehead.

http://www.speakeasy.org/~mamandel/Cracks-and-Shards/characteristics.html
	<<<


-- Mark A. Mandel
   http://cracksandshards.com
   a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website
[I talk, Dragon NaturallySpeaking types, I correct. Neither of us is
perfect.]






From mam at theworld.com  Fri Sep 10 18:21:00 2004
From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 21:21:00 -0400
Subject: genetics and the soul pararectal! 
In-Reply-To: <200409102103.i8AL39RM019291@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0409102117310.60195-100000@shell01-g>

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote:

#lazarus wrote:
#> My recollection is that House Jhereg is the only House with no genetic
#> input.  They were just the dregs and scavengers left over after all
#> the other houses formed, and sarcastically gave themselves a critter
#> name as well.

And they were also raiders, i.e., scavengers of a sort.


#>
#> Not to say Loiosh hasn't helped Vlad a great deal, but not in the
#> manner you're thinking.
#
#Perhaps I'm misremembering, but I believe the Jhereg
#House started as an amalgam of the tribes that didn't
#make it into Kieron's Top 15 list (they didn't count
#the Teckla, who always seem to get the short end of
#the lepip).  Aliera told Vlad that, over time, the
#mixture of genes that made up the Jhereg formed it's
#own detectable gene-strain (so to speak).
#
#If that's the case (hey, she's been wrong before:), Jhereg
#were originaly made from all the left-over animals.
#Hmm... wonder if there are any daar or kethna in there....
#
#So, yes, I don't believe there are jhereg genes in the
#Jhereg; they're kind of like the Dragaeran melting-pot.
#Although, they do portray jhereg-like traits, which makes
#me wonder how many dragaerans are influenced by genes,
#and how many by memes.  Hmm, again.

Well, there were originally something like 33 Houses, only 16 of which,
plus the Jhereg, survived to form the Empire. For all we know, there
COULD have originally been a genetic House Jhereg. And if there was,
some of their genes might have wound up to the bouillabaisse that is the
"modern" House Jhereg.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   http://cracksandshards.com
   a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website
[I talk, Dragon NaturallySpeaking types, I correct. Neither of us is
perfect.]




From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com  Fri Sep 10 19:49:43 2004
From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 22:49:43 EDT
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
Message-ID: <148.336a4638.2e73c1c7@aol.com>

On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote:

#Could Sethra of the e'Lanya Dragon line?

On Thursday, 9 Sep 2004 
-- Mark A. Mandel
   http://cracksandshards.com
   a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website  wrote

#No. Sethra is older than the Empire.

Hi,

Spoiler below if you have not already read Jhereg and 
Issola. Wild speculation below too.











I'm speculating that the e'Lanya Dragon line is older
then the Empire and older than Sethra even if no one
put the e'Lanya part after their name.

Possible if you engage in wild speculation based on some 
of Vlad's fever dreams in Athyra, Vlad's reaction to a 
painting in Dragon and the word plow in Brokedown Palace
and Athyra.

Did Verra and her friends capture only one dragon for 
the Jen or did they capture several?    

What if genetic memory is one of pieces taken from that 
dragon and given to the Dragaerans.
  
What if Vlad's soul has the genetic memory of that dragon. 

What if Kieron the Conqueror was named after Kieron the 
dragon(animal) the Jen took genes from or maybe the first
Easterner/Dragaeran from those experiments?   

What if there was a Kieron the dragon and a Drien the 
dragon and a Lanya the dragon and a Marish'Chala the
dragon. 

Or maybe the first group of Easterners/Dragaeran were 
Kieron, Drien, Lanya and Marish'Chala and whoever. 

And maybe Sethra is descended from the original Lanya. 

"e'Lanya blood" "grasp of tactics is without fail."
The Phoenix Guards page 131  

Heh.

Bye.

Linda G. 

From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com  Fri Sep 10 20:09:04 2004
From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 23:09:04 EDT
Subject: genetics and the soul pararectal!
Message-ID: <75.33753a3d.2e73c650@aol.com>

bonham15 wrote on Thu, 9 Sep 2004

>link of the witch's familiar is a 2 way street 
>and that vlad has assimilated some of loiosh's traits just as loiosh picked 
>up stuff from him.

Chris Olson - SunPS writing on Aliera on Fri, 10 Sep 2004

>(hey, she's been wrong before:)

Auggh!  I had forgotten that Sethra in Issola paperback page 36 said "Aliera

From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com  Fri Sep 10 20:59:53 2004
From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 23:59:53 EDT
Subject: genetics and the soul pararectal!
Message-ID: <e8.c97447.2e73d239@aol.com>

Hi,

Whoops...hit the wrong button and sent that last one too 
soon.  Sorry.  Heh, it was very short though.

If you haven't read Jhereg yet...please get thee
to a bookstore and pick up The Book of the Jhereg.

bonham15 wrote on Thu, 9 Sep 2004

>link of the witch's familiar is a 2 way street 
>and that vlad has assimilated some of loiosh's traits 
>just as loiosh picked up stuff from him.

Do not give up on this idea too soon.  See Jhereg 
paperback and The Book of the Jhereg page 8.

The jhereg(animal), Loiosh's mother says "long life and 
good hunting."  
"I am not a hunter," Vlad told her.
"You will be,"  she said. 

In Issola paperback page 83 Verra says "Have all your
years in the Jhereg been wasted?"  And on page 45 Sethra 
says "This is the kind of activity that Vlad is trained for"

Just who is pulling Vlad's strings...D*livar's soul or 
Verra.

Chris Olson - SunPS writing on Aliera on Fri, 10 Sep 2004

>(hey, she's been wrong before:)

Auggh!  I had forgotten that Aliera could be wrong and 
that Sethra in Issola paperback page 36 said "Aliera, 
who indulges in much enlightened speculation."  

On what Aliera said:

In Jhereg paperback page 112, The Book of Jhereg trade
paperback, Jhereg page 81 Vlad says "I'm surprised that
the Jenoine wasted their time breeding an animal like
the Jhereg into some Dragaerans,"..."Oh," said Aliera,
"but they didn't."..."They played around with the
jheregs and found a way to put human-level 
intelligence into a brain the size of a rednut, but
they never put any jhereg genes into Dragaerans."

Bye.

Linda G.

From kknolte at ecity.net  Sat Sep 11 04:11:40 2004
From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 12:11:40 +0100
Subject: genetics and the soul pararectal!
References: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0409102117310.60195-100000@shell01-g>
Message-ID: <4142DD6C.6D1E@ecity.net>

Mark A Mandel wrote:
<snip>

> Well, there were originally something like 33 Houses, only 16 of which,
> plus the Jhereg, survived to form the Empire. For all we know, there
> COULD have originally been a genetic House Jhereg. And if there was,
> some of their genes might have wound up to the bouillabaisse that is the
> "modern" House Jhereg.

Is there any textevd for when the Cycle (as in the version existing in
the Paths of the Dead) came about?  Ie, did it originally have 33
different Houses, and the Cycle got shorter as the Houses died off, or
did it come into being after the Houses stabilized at the current 17?

If the first option, does that mean that the Phoenix could go extinct
without affecting the Cycle much, it's just the Athyra Emperor gets
followed by a Dragon Emperor?  

With the 2nd option, does that mean that the Cycle might have come about
around the same time as the Orb, and if so, was the Cycle also designed
to protect against the Jenoine? 

Karen





From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Sat Sep 11 11:18:08 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 11:18:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: genetics and the soul pararectal!
In-Reply-To: <4142DD6C.6D1E@ecity.net>
References: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0409102117310.60195-100000@shell01-g> <4142DD6C.6D1E@ecity.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0409111112540.24372@flora04.slac.stanford.edu>



On Sat, 11 Sep 2004, K Kuhn wrote:

> Mark A Mandel wrote:
> <snip>
>
> > Well, there were originally something like 33 Houses, only 16 of which,
> > plus the Jhereg, survived to form the Empire. For all we know, there
> > COULD have originally been a genetic House Jhereg. And if there was,
> > some of their genes might have wound up to the bouillabaisse that is the
> > "modern" House Jhereg.
>
> Is there any textevd for when the Cycle (as in the version existing in
> the Paths of the Dead) came about?  Ie, did it originally have 33
> different Houses, and the Cycle got shorter as the Houses died off, or
> did it come into being after the Houses stabilized at the current 17?
>
> If the first option, does that mean that the Phoenix could go extinct
> without affecting the Cycle much, it's just the Athyra Emperor gets
> followed by a Dragon Emperor?
>
> With the 2nd option, does that mean that the Cycle might have come about
> around the same time as the Orb, and if so, was the Cycle also designed
> to protect against the Jenoine?


I'm of the opinion that the Cycle is a feature of the universe anterior
to the gods (see the Paarfiad for a representation of the latter's view
of the former), and that the n-17 tribes that didn't make it lacked its
protection so were doomed.  Maybe they had Terran animal genes and
offended the universe's sense of rightness...


From lairdb at gmail.com  Sat Sep 11 12:02:31 2004
From: lairdb at gmail.com (L. Broadfield)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 12:02:31 -0700
Subject: On lords of various houses...
In-Reply-To: <41379B14.3030708@comcast.net>
References: <042401c49063$1b9aac20$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>	 <BAY8-DAV49R3tKkiZDh0003026a@hotmail.com>	 <41379B14.3030708@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <ca25294d04091112027ffae1f2@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 17:13:40 -0500, Mia McDavid <mia_mcdavid at comcast.net> wrote:
[...]
> I'm not so sure about that.  My impression is that all Dragons, and all
> Dzur, are lords.  At the other end, no Teckla are lords, and no Teckla
> can be emperors; hence the Teckla Republic. 


In Athyra, Vlad commenting on the city of Adrilankha: "It's what you
make of it. It is a thousand cities. It is a place where there are
more noblemen than Teckla, it seems. It is a place of ease, luxury,
and sudden violence, depending on where you are and[...]"

--Laird


From rct9911 at comcast.net  Sat Sep 11 19:20:12 2004
From: rct9911 at comcast.net (Rebecca)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 21:20:12 -0500
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
References: <148.336a4638.2e73c1c7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003f01c4986f$09071f30$6601a8c0@BOB>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <FRIEDA2133 at aol.com>
To: <dragaera at dragaera.info>
Cc: <mam at TheWorld.com>
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 9:49 PM
Subject: RE: Joining a house, or changing houses


> On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote:
>
> #Could Sethra of the e'Lanya Dragon line?
>
> On Thursday, 9 Sep 2004
> -- Mark A. Mandel
>    http://cracksandshards.com
>    a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website  wrote
>
> #No. Sethra is older than the Empire.
>
> Hi,
>
> Spoiler below if you have not already read Jhereg and
> Issola. Wild speculation below too.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I'm speculating that the e'Lanya Dragon line is older
> then the Empire and older than Sethra even if no one
> put the e'Lanya part after their name.
>
> Possible if you engage in wild speculation based on some
> of Vlad's fever dreams in Athyra, Vlad's reaction to a
> painting in Dragon and the word plow in Brokedown Palace
> and Athyra.
>
> Did Verra and her friends capture only one dragon for
> the Jen or did they capture several?
>
> What if genetic memory is one of pieces taken from that
> dragon and given to the Dragaerans.
>
> What if Vlad's soul has the genetic memory of that dragon.
>
> What if Kieron the Conqueror was named after Kieron the
> dragon(animal) the Jen took genes from or maybe the first
> Easterner/Dragaeran from those experiments?
>
> What if there was a Kieron the dragon and a Drien the
> dragon and a Lanya the dragon and a Marish'Chala the
> dragon.
>
> Or maybe the first group of Easterners/Dragaeran were
> Kieron, Drien, Lanya and Marish'Chala and whoever.
>
> And maybe Sethra is descended from the original Lanya.
>
> "e'Lanya blood" "grasp of tactics is without fail."
> The Phoenix Guards page 131
>
> Heh.
>
> Bye.
>
> Linda G.
>



I doubt it. It specifically says, in the Phoenix Guards (at the part where
they get arrested at the inn, and they're debating whether or not to
surrender, and Khaavren tells Uttrik that even Lanya was arrested), that
Lanya was a person, originally Lanya e'Kieron, and her descendants were so
proud of her deeds (she became Empress and did some other stuff) that they
took her name. That's how it works for all the Dragon lines. It mentions in
one of the Vlad novels that Baritt's descendants had begun taking the name
e'Baritt because of his great achievements (there's some anachronism here -
it says in Jhereg that during one of the Dragon-Jhereg wars, the e'Baritt
line was almost wiped out... I guess they could have taken Baritt's name all
the way back then, but surely he couldn't have had that many descendants).

I don't think that the "people named after dragons" theory is going to hold
up, because all the people were at different times in history. They had the
last names of an earlier Dragon line, and their descendants took theirs in
honor of their deeds.

For future reference... Kieron the person is mentioned in most of Vlad books
as one of the founders of the Empire, who helped Zerika make the Orb and
conquer the lands. Lanya was already discussed above. Drien was also present
at the founding of the empire, and changed his/her gender around so that
Aliera can't remember what s/he was originally. (I think that's in Yendi.)
Terics was mentioned somewhere, but I don't remember what he did.
Marish-Chala was mentioned in the Phoenix Guards, but no specifics are given
as to her deeds.

All this was from memory, so please correct me if I've got a point wrong.

-Rebecca



From mam at theworld.com  Sat Sep 11 20:03:21 2004
From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 23:03:21 -0400
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <003f01c4986f$09071f30$6601a8c0@BOB>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0409112300330.124597-100000@shell01-g>

Rebecca writes:

#	 It mentions in
#one of the Vlad novels that Baritt's descendants had begun taking the name
#e'Baritt because of his great achievements (there's some anachronism here -
#it says in Jhereg that during one of the Dragon-Jhereg wars, the e'Baritt
#line was almost wiped out... I guess they could have taken Baritt's name all
#the way back then, but surely he couldn't have had that many descendants).

If I recall correctly, Steve has said in connection with the e'Baritt
anachronism that more than one person can bear the same name, and that a
line can also be named retroactively. Anyhow, Steve has covered his
retro.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   http://cracksandshards.com
   a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website
[I talk, Dragon NaturallySpeaking types, I correct. Neither of us is
perfect.]




From davids at Kithrup.COM  Sat Sep 11 22:57:07 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:57:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <003f01c4986f$09071f30$6601a8c0@BOB>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040911225031.6987A-100000@kithrup.com>

On Sat, 11 Sep 2004, Rebecca wrote:

>Terics was mentioned somewhere, but I don't remember what he did. 

As far as I can recall, Terics is only mentioned in /Dragon/, in
the context of the Terics Academy.  I suppose that gya was a master
of strategy and tactics.

Hm.  I note that the academy is being attended by Virt, who is of
the e'Terics line.  Perhaps the Academy is only open to Dragons 
of that lineage?  But we don't really know enough to speculate.
Not that that's every stopped us before.



From davids at Kithrup.COM  Sat Sep 11 23:18:18 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 23:18:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <003f01c4986f$09071f30$6601a8c0@BOB>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040911225951.6987B-100000@kithrup.com>

On Sat, 11 Sep 2004, Rebecca wrote:

>Terics was mentioned somewhere, but I don't remember what he did.

>Marish-Chala was mentioned in the Phoenix Guards, but no specifics
>are given as to her deeds. 
>

Amazon Booksearch says "Warlord of the Empire during the fourth
Dragon Reign" (pg 126, TPG).  An abbreviation of Marishori Cvorunn
Chalionara.

Oh, and in /Five Hundred Years After/, it mentions that Sethra
Lavode fought along with one Terics e'Marish'Chala against an
invasion from Elde Island. (pg 103, FHYA)  I don't know if this is
the same Terics who gave the name to the e'Terics line, of course.

By the way, searching Dragaera booksearch for a string that has an
apostophe in it (marish'chala) returns a blank results page.  When
I put in "marish chala", I get results, but clicking on the results
shows only blank pages as well, rather than the usual sentence
fragment that contains the result.




From howard at brazee.net  Sun Sep 12 06:11:42 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 07:11:42 -0600
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
In-Reply-To: <003f01c4986f$09071f30$6601a8c0@BOB>
Message-ID: <000401c498ca$0cb2d9c0$b07ba8c0@Dad133>

Rebecca wrote:
 That's how it works
> for all the Dragon lines. It mentions in one of the Vlad novels that
> Baritt's descendants had begun taking the name e'Baritt because of
> his great achievements (there's some anachronism here - it says in
> Jhereg that during one of the Dragon-Jhereg wars, the e'Baritt line
> was almost wiped out... I guess they could have taken Baritt's name
> all the way back then, but surely he couldn't have had that many
> descendants).  

They could also have named or renamed their line to include their ancestors.



From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com  Sun Sep 12 14:06:31 2004
From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 17:06:31 EDT
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
Message-ID: <55.614f716c.2e761457@aol.com>

From: Rebecca wrote Sat, 11 Sep 2004 21:20:12 -0500 

>I don't think that the "people named after dragons" theory is going to
>hold up, 

Hi,

Spoiler below if you have not already read Jhereg and 
Issola. Wild speculation below too.










My wild speculation is that not only are people named after the
dragons they have memories of, but they also have the 
abilities of the original dragon.  

"e'Lanya blood" "grasp of tactics is without fail."
The Phoenix Guards page 131

I was thinking that tactics was one of those innate abilities
the Jen took from a Lanya the dragon and merged with an
Easterner soul/body. And then Sethra is a descendant of that
soul/body.

This speculation is based on Vlad having memories of the original
dragon that the e'Kieron soul/body line is based on and his 
ability to create amorphia.

The ability to create amorphia is older than Kieron the Conqueror
who we think the e'Kieron line is named after.  D*livar did not 
get the ability from his brother.  He could have gotten the 
ability from his mother or father.  I think he got it from the 
dragon that was captured and given to Verra who added the ability
to create amorphia to the dragon's soul as a surprise for the Jen.  

Issola page 182 Vlad says "I had found those innate abilities
inherited through the connection of my spirt to ancestors 
stretching back to when Sethra was young."

Aliera talking about "the ability to create amorphia" page 112 
Jhereg paperback, page 81 The Book of the Jhereg trade paperback:

"It isn't a skill one can learn.  It goes back to genes again.  So
far as I know, it is only the e'Kieron line of the House of the 
Dragon that holds the ability."

Vlad is an Easterner.  He is not a descendant of Kieron. Where did
the ability come from?  The only connection we know of is his soul. 
Of course, we do not know who his mother was and there could have 
also been a vial of blood involved.

From: Rebecca wrote Sat, 11 Sep 2004 21:20:12 -0500 

>because all the people were at different times in history. They had the
>last names of an earlier Dragon line, and their descendants took theirs
>in honor of their deeds.

Yes.  And certain souls keep popping up again and again at different
times in history.  And I think the first names keep popping up because 
of  the soul/body memory of the original dragon or Easterner/Dragaeran.


Bye.

Linda G. 

From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com  Sun Sep 12 14:41:13 2004
From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 17:41:13 EDT
Subject: Joining a house, or changing houses
Message-ID: <d5.169086ca.2e761c79@aol.com>

David Silberstein wrote Sat, 11 Sep 2004  

>By the way, searching Dragaera booksearch for a string that has an
>apostophe in it (marish'chala) returns a blank results page.  When
>I put in "marish chala", I get results, but clicking on the results
>shows only blank pages as well, rather than the usual sentence
>fragment that contains the result.
  
Hi,

I think I have gotten a blank results page when I haven't used an
apostophe or quote.  Maybe because I put in too many words
and confused booksearch.  

Try just part of the word.  Put in marish and got 17 items.
When you put in marish line, you get 58 when booksearch uses or.
I clicked search again and it came back with marish and line
with 10 items.  

Heh, I like this one.

Score 3 at 31.9% in chapter TPG-125.html
?, which men call insight, is the special attribute of the rare 
Dragon  bloodline that is named Marish'Chala, and the Lady Kathana
unquestionably had it in abundance. Yet, this quality, this insight,
is not like ?

Ah ha, insight a special attribute...maybe an innate ability
that was built into the soul.

Bye.

Linda G.
 

From shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 17 07:01:31 2004
From: shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com (S SHafer)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 07:01:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Is the list just quiet or am I missing something
In-Reply-To: <55.614f716c.2e761457@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20040917140131.98811.qmail@web53408.mail.yahoo.com>

Hey all,
 
I haven't gotten an e-mail from the list since the 12th and am writing to make sure that I'm not missing something.
 
I'd also like to add a second inquiry... Have any other authors written about Brust's world/characters?
 
Hope everyone has a great weekend - ST

From brian.vanskyock at zimmer.com  Fri Sep 17 07:09:13 2004
From: brian.vanskyock at zimmer.com (Brian Vanskyock)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:09:13 -0500
Subject: Is the list just quiet or am I missing something
In-Reply-To: <20040917140131.98811.qmail@web53408.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20040917090913363.00000001532@Z7581>


I think that the list is quiet
(I was wondering the same thing earlier today)

brian


-----Original Message-----
From: S SHafer [mailto:shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 9:02 AM
To: dragaera at dragaera.info
Subject: Is the list just quiet or am I missing something

Hey all,
 
I haven't gotten an e-mail from the list since the 12th and am writing to make sure that I'm not missing something.
 
I'd also like to add a second inquiry... Have any other authors written about Brust's world/characters?
 
Hope everyone has a great weekend - ST



From lqmiller at ev1.net  Fri Sep 17 07:47:56 2004
From: lqmiller at ev1.net (Louann Miller)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:47:56 -0500
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person
In-Reply-To: <20040917140131.98811.qmail@web53408.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <55.614f716c.2e761457@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20040917094510.019858d0@mail.ev1.net>

At 07:01 AM 9/17/2004 -0700, S SHafer wrote:
>Hey all,
>
>I haven't gotten an e-mail from the list since the 12th and am writing to 
>make sure that I'm not missing something.
>
>I'd also like to add a second inquiry... Have any other authors written 
>about Brust's world/characters?
>
>Hope everyone has a great weekend - ST

I'll be glad to get a modest ball rolling. Steven Brust is going to be the 
GOH at a con local to me, ConDFW, in February. I'm looking forward to 
meeting him.

Any tips? Pet peeves, subjects he especially enjoys talking about, etc? I 
gather from the con organizers that 'Brust' is pronounced 'brewst' rather 
than rhyming with 'trust,' so that's one mistake I can avoid.

Louann, trying to think like an Issola I guess.




From Thomarus at carolina.rr.com  Fri Sep 17 07:58:06 2004
From: Thomarus at carolina.rr.com (Mike Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:58:06 -0400
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20040917094510.019858d0@mail.ev1.net>
References: <55.614f716c.2e761457@aol.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20040917094510.019858d0@mail.ev1.net>
Message-ID: <414AFB7E.5060908@carolina.rr.com>

What cons are those?

Louann Miller wrote:

> At 07:01 AM 9/17/2004 -0700, S SHafer wrote:
>
>> Hey all,
>>
>> I haven't gotten an e-mail from the list since the 12th and am 
>> writing to make sure that I'm not missing something.
>>
>> I'd also like to add a second inquiry... Have any other authors 
>> written about Brust's world/characters?
>>
>> Hope everyone has a great weekend - ST
>
>
> I'll be glad to get a modest ball rolling. Steven Brust is going to be 
> the GOH at a con local to me, ConDFW, in February. I'm looking forward 
> to meeting him.
>
> Any tips? Pet peeves, subjects he especially enjoys talking about, 
> etc? I gather from the con organizers that 'Brust' is pronounced 
> 'brewst' rather than rhyming with 'trust,' so that's one mistake I can 
> avoid.
>
> Louann, trying to think like an Issola I guess.
>
>
>



From carpovita at earthlink.net  Fri Sep 17 20:05:01 2004
From: carpovita at earthlink.net (Rion Bergquist)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 21:05:01 -0600
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person
References: <55.614f716c.2e761457@aol.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20040917094510.019858d0@mail.ev1.net>
Message-ID: <003401c49d2c$4a1616e0$0400a8c0@attbi.com>

I run the Opus Fantasy Arts Festival out in Denver that has been graced by
the great one's presence two years running now...

Steve is a wonderfully gregarious fellow who enjoys time with fans, panels,
the bar, playing impromptu musical sets (often in the bar).

Should he appear listless or bored simple provide him with a home cooked
authentic Hungarian meal and he will become quite content.  We have found
this is a very good tactic

I have also had the pleasure of being invited to his home in Vegas, and
after, out to dinner with him.  Be aware that if you find your self spending
private time such as this with him that it is advisable to sit in the
smoking section, for he doth smoke, it is further advisable to have a good
opinion of parrots, an open mind on politics, and most importantly an honest
opinion of his works.  He's not necessarily proud of everything he's done so
its likely best to avoid being too worshipful.

If you are instead looking for him at the show, try first of course the
panels that he is listed on, if the panel is missing from the room it was
scheduled to be in, try the nearest bar, he and others of his trade seem to
often be willing to extend panels when in such relaxing environs.

Hope this was helpful.  I know him not nearly as well as I wish to.  If you
seek further insights I suggest you ask him directly, or perhaps bribe his
children or lady fair for further insights...

Rion
Chairman & Herder of Cats
Opus Fantasy Arts Festival, Denver, Colorado
----- Original Message -----
From: "Louann Miller" <lqmiller at ev1.net>
To: <dragaera at dragaera.info>
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 8:47 AM
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person


> At 07:01 AM 9/17/2004 -0700, S SHafer wrote:
> >Hey all,
> >
> >I haven't gotten an e-mail from the list since the 12th and am writing to
> >make sure that I'm not missing something.
> >
> >I'd also like to add a second inquiry... Have any other authors written
> >about Brust's world/characters?
> >
> >Hope everyone has a great weekend - ST
>
> I'll be glad to get a modest ball rolling. Steven Brust is going to be the
> GOH at a con local to me, ConDFW, in February. I'm looking forward to
> meeting him.
>
> Any tips? Pet peeves, subjects he especially enjoys talking about, etc? I
> gather from the con organizers that 'Brust' is pronounced 'brewst' rather
> than rhyming with 'trust,' so that's one mistake I can avoid.
>
> Louann, trying to think like an Issola I guess.
>
>



From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net  Fri Sep 17 09:51:18 2004
From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:51:18 -0500
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20040917094510.019858d0@mail.ev1.net>
References: <55.614f716c.2e761457@aol.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20040917094510.019858d0@mail.ev1.net>
Message-ID: <414B1606.6070701@comcast.net>

Louann Miller wrote:

> I'll be glad to get a modest ball rolling. Steven Brust is going to be 
> the GOH at a con local to me, ConDFW, in February. I'm looking forward 
> to meeting him.
>
> Any tips? Pet peeves, subjects he especially enjoys talking about, 
> etc? I gather from the con organizers that 'Brust' is pronounced 
> 'brewst' rather than rhyming with 'trust,' so that's one mistake I can 
> avoid.
>
> Louann, trying to think like an Issola I guess. 


Lessee.  Steve will be found as much as his duties permit in smoking 
space.  He drums and loves skilful guitar music but has, as I understand 
it, little interest in filk per se.  If you're lucky, he'll bring his 
parrots; they're very cool.  He likes people; you needn't be shy of 
him.  He doesn't have any "oh, will all these horrid people just leave 
the Great Author in peace!" attitudes in my experience.

Look for a man with a theatrical black leather hat, an enormous black 
banditto moustache, and a full mouth, who is almost as cool as he thinks 
he is.  ;->

Have a great time!

Cheers!

Mia




From abcmm at att.net  Fri Sep 17 11:03:43 2004
From: abcmm at att.net (abcmm at att.net)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 18:03:43 +0000
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person
Message-ID: <091720041803.14215.414B26FE000ED0FC00003787216037602103030C0D0E@att.net>

As I understand.  Here are some possible topics...  History (Civil War in particular) and Poker.

I know if I ever talked to him I would like to find out more about why his more recent works have been told from the perspective of a historian.  I have not heard or read much about that shift and it has always kind of peaked my interest.


-------------- Original message from Mike Flanigan : -------------- 

> What cons are those? 
> 
> Louann Miller wrote: 
> 
> > At 07:01 AM 9/17/2004 -0700, S SHafer wrote: 
> > 
> >> Hey all, 
> >> 
> >> I haven't gotten an e-mail from the list since the 12th and am 
> >> writing to make sure that I'm not missing something. 
> >> 
> >> I'd also like to add a second inquiry... Have any other authors 
> >> written about Brust's world/characters? 
> >> 
> >> Hope everyone has a great weekend - ST 
> > 
> > 
> > I'll be glad to get a modest ball rolling. Steven Brust is going to be 
> > the GOH at a con local to me, ConDFW, in February. I'm looking forward 
> > to meeting him. 
> > 
> > Any tips? Pet peeves, subjects he especially enjoys talking about, 
> > etc? I gather from the con organizers that 'Brust' is pronounced 
> > 'brewst' rather than rhyming with 'trust,' so that's one mistake I can 
> > avoid. 
> > 
> > Louann, trying to think like an Issola I guess. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 

From mneme at io.com  Fri Sep 17 12:21:40 2004
From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 14:21:40 -0500
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person
In-Reply-To: <091720041803.14215.414B26FE000ED0FC00003787216037602103030C0D0E@att.net>
References: <091720041803.14215.414B26FE000ED0FC00003787216037602103030C0D0E@att.net>
Message-ID: <16715.14660.952498.510508@eris.io.com>

abcmm at att.net writes:
>I know if I ever talked to him I would like to find out more about
>why his more recent works have been told from the perspective of a
>historian.  I have not heard or read much about that shift and it has
>always kind of peaked my interest. 

Er..they're a concious and deliberate pastiche.  
As, in some ways, are the Vlad books.

-- 
       Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org))  |\      _,,,--,,_  ,)
--^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick    /,`.-'`'   -,  ;-;;'  
  /\\  your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle     |,4-  ) )-,_ ) /\     
/-\\\  your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax            '---''(_/--' (_/-'     


From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us  Fri Sep 17 13:21:30 2004
From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:21:30 -0400
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20040917094510.019858d0@mail.ev1.net>
References: <55.614f716c.2e761457@aol.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20040917094510.019858d0@mail.ev1.net>
Message-ID: <20040917202130.GB12798@lokkur.dexter.mi.us>

On Fri, Sep 17, 2004 at 09:47:56AM -0500, Louann Miller wrote:

> I'll be glad to get a modest ball rolling. Steven Brust is going to be the 
> GOH at a con local to me, ConDFW, in February. I'm looking forward to 
> meeting him.

He's going to be Toastmaster or MC at Confusion, in Troy, MI, the
end of January.
-- 
"Lloyd's not a political junkie, but he's definately a user."
   -- unnamed friend speaking of her husband, July 2004


From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM  Fri Sep 17 15:04:39 2004
From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:04:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person  
Message-ID: <200409172204.i8HM4dRM000992@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com>

Steve Simmons wrote:
> He's going to be Toastmaster or MC at Confusion, in Troy, MI, the
> end of January.

Does anyone else find it appropriate that Steve will
be the MC of Confusion?

I'm reminded of his "Stream of Consciousness Blues"
song.  (If you haven't heard his CD, you should.  It's
great!)


:Heh:
Chris
"If you can't live without me, die already."
	~Cynthia Heimel



From dgf at dd-b.net  Fri Sep 17 15:17:01 2004
From: dgf at dd-b.net (dgf at dd-b.net)
Date: 17 Sep 2004 22:17:01 -0000
Subject: Dragaera subscriber list
Message-ID: <20040917221701.21893.qmail@dd-b.net>

abailey (at) micromuse.com (email) Andrew Bailey <abailey (at) micromuse.com> 
abcmm (at) att.net (email) abcmm (at) att.net 
acwest-dragaera (at) craigwest.net (email) "A. Craig West" <acwest-dragaera (at) craigwest.net> 
adia (at) hellug.gr (email) =?iso-8859-7?B?wevd7uHt5PHv8iDE6eHs4e303+Tn8g==?= <adia (at) hellug.gr> 
adia (at) hellug.gr (email) Alexandros Diamantidis <adia (at) hellug.gr> 
adina (at) panix.com (email)
aejoubert (at) hotmail.com (email) "Andrew Joubert" <aejoubert (at) hotmail.com> 
agrajag (at) dragaera.net (email) Jag <agrajag (at) dragaera.net> 
agrelic (at) gmail.com (email) Sean Dilda <agrelic (at) gmail.com> 
aheyman (at) rcn.com (email) "Adam Heyman" <aheyman (at) rcn.com> 
akomins (at) midway.uchicago.edu (email) Arin Komins <akomins (at) midway.uchicago.edu> 
alexx (at) panix.com (email) "Alexander Kay" <alexx (at) panix.com> 
aliera (at) iname.com (email)
amadandedallas (at) yahoo.com (email) James D'Amadan <amadandedallas (at) yahoo.com> 
amitskaw (at) hotmail.com (email) "James Somebody" <amitskaw (at) hotmail.com> 
andreas.kroeger (at) gmail.com (email) Andreas Kroeger <Andreas.Kroeger (at) gmail.com> 
andrew.durston (at) smiths-aerospace.com (email) "Durston, Andrew (AGRE)" <andrew.durston (at) smiths-aerospace.com> 
AndrewBarton (at) compuserve.com (digest)
annoying_dude (at) yahoo.com (digest) Matt Smit <annoying_dude (at) yahoo.com> 
anreed (at) wm.edu (email) anreed (at) wm.edu 
antuhej (at) hotmail.com (email) "Henrik Jonsson" <antuhej (at) hotmail.com> 
asher1978 (at) hotmail.com (email) "asher 1978" <asher1978 (at) hotmail.com> 
asr (at) spnode43.nerdc.ufl.edu (email) asr (at) ufl.edu 
attjen (at) gwu.edu (digest) Matt Jennings <attjen (at) gwu.edu> 
badgod (at) sonic.net (digest)
ballistica (at) cox.net (email) "Donna" <ballistica (at) cox.net> 
baron_greystone (at) hotmail.com (digest) "Baron Greystone" <baron_greystone (at) hotmail.com> 
Bato001 (at) aol.com (email)
bearnw (at) ix.netcom.com (digest)
bertowud (at) cox.net (email) "Robert Wood" <bertowud (at) cox.net> 
bio_phy (at) hotmail.com (email)
blackbird0 (at) yahoo.com (email) Jeffrey Kiok <blackbird0 (at) yahoo.com> 
blacktalon69 (at) yahoo.com (email) Kuba Holuj <blacktalon69 (at) yahoo.com> 
bonham15 (at) cox.net (email) "bonham15" <bonham15 (at) cox.net> 
books (at) bofh.com (email) books (at) bofh.com 
bph7 (at) cornell.edu (email) Ben Hiles <bph7 (at) cornell.edu> 
brian.vanskyock (at) zimmer.com (email) "Brian Vanskyock" <brian.vanskyock (at) zimmer.com> 
briandmichelle (at) yahoo.com (email) Brian and Michelle Baskett <briandmichelle (at) yahoo.com>
BrianKeegan (at) masonline.net (email) "Brian Keegan" <BrianKeegan (at) masonline.net> 
bryann (at) bryann.net (email) "Bryan Newell" <bryann (at) bryann.net> 
calianng_graves (at) yahoo.com (email) Caliann the Elf <calianng_graves (at) yahoo.com> 
cantatrix (at) hotmail.com (email) "Becky Krause" <cantatrix (at) hotmail.com> 
carl (at) odeon.net (email) "Carl Chada" <carl (at) odeon.net> 
carla.hunt.b (at) oncogene.com (email) "Carla Hunt" <carla.hunt.b (at) oncogene.com> 
carpovita (at) earthlink.net (email) "Rion Bergquist" <carpovita (at) earthlink.net> 
casey (at) the-bat.net (email) <casey (at) the-bat.net> 
chamama (at) cheerful.com (email) "sara chamama" <chamama (at) cheerful.com> 
charles_sumner (at) harvard.edu (email) charles_sumner (at) harvard.edu 
chris.mclaren (at) ieee.org (email) "Chris McLaren" <chris.mclaren (at) ieee.org> 
Chrisf.Olson (at) sun.com (email) Chris Olson - SunPS <Chrisf.Olson (at) Sun.COM>
Christoph.Safferling (at) uni-konstanz.de (email)
Christopher_M_Kane (at) brown.edu (email)
cnorehad (at) oz.net (email) "Chris Norehad" <cnorehad (at) oz.net> 
corsair (at) concentric.net (email) "Kelly Rhodes" <corsair (at) concentric.net> 
corsairx (at) iinet.net.au (email) Andrew <corsairx (at) iinet.net.au> 
corwin (at) mpls.cx (email) (Corwin Brust) 
crowkart (at) hotmail.com (email) "A Crow" <crowkart (at) hotmail.com> 
dalvenjah (at) dal.net (email) Dalvenjah FoxFire <dalvenjah (at) DAL.NET> 
dan-tain_ishanti (at) attbi.com (email) "Brad Crawford" <dan-tain_ishanti (at) attbi.com> 
dar (at) horusinc.com (email) "David Rodemaker" <dar (at) horusinc.com> 
dave-lists-dragaera (at) weller-fahy.com (email) "David J. Weller-Fahy" <dave-lists-dragaera (at) weller-fahy.com> 
dave (at) waveridersystems.com (email) "Dave Godwin" <dave (at) waveridersystems.com> 
david (at) mail.crlf.net (email) David Maxwell <david (at) crlf.net> 
davids (at) kithrup.com (email) David Silberstein <davids (at) kithrup.com> 
dd-b (at) dd-b.net (digest) (David Dyer-Bennet) 
dd-b (at) dd-b.net (email) (David Dyer-Bennet) 
den (at) monger.net (email)
dgf (at) dd-b.net (post)
dinlicious (at) gmail.com (email) dinlicious <dinlicious (at) gmail.com> 
don (at) easterlys.com (email) "Don Easterly" <don (at) easterlys.com> 
dr.elmo (at) whiterose.org (email) "Dr. Elmo" <dr.elmo (at) whiterose.org> 
dragaera-kithrup (at) kithrup.com (email)
dragaera (at) juima.org (email) Sander <dragaera (at) juima.org> 
dusty (at) sayersnet.com (email) J A Dusty Sayers <dusty (at) sayersnet.com>
Dzurlord (at) gmail.com (email) Cheese Weasel <Dzurlord (at) gmail.com> 
d_levitz (at) msn.com (email) "Daniel Levitz" <D_Levitz (at) msn.com> 
ed (at) edmail.info (email) Ed Lee <ed (at) edmail.info> 
ehahn (at) isochronism.com (email) Edward Hahn <ehahn (at) isochronism.com> 
ejpeterson (at) comcast.net (email)
erik (at) debill.org (email) erik (at) debill.org 
eshivak (at) netzero.net (email) "Eric Shivak" <eshivak (at) netzero.net> 
everbard (at) ix.netcom.com (email) "Michael M Jones" <everbard (at) ix.netcom.com> 
faakinridiculous (at) hotmail.com (email) "rogue squadron" <faakinridiculous (at) hotmail.com> 
feaelin (at) kemenel.org (email) "Davis, Iain E." <feaelin (at) kemenel.org> 
feetalsjeez (at) yahoo.com (email) Tim Owen <feetalsjeez (at) yahoo.com> 
fides (at) kludgeco.com (email) Faith Lawrence <fides (at) kludgeco.com> 
fitzrose (at) msn.com (email) "Rosemary Fitzsimons" <fitzrose (at) msn.com> 
flgrendel (at) yahoo.com (email) John Almasi <flgrendel (at) yahoo.com> 
foodgod (at) pobox.com (email) Teddywolf <foodgod (at) pobox.com> 
foolserrand1 (at) hotmail.com (email)
frank (at) exit.com (email) Frank Mayhar <frank (at) exit.com> 
FRIEDA2133 (at) aol.com (email)
furryjawa (at) yahoo.com (email) David Lish <furryjawa (at) yahoo.com> 
gaertk (at) aol.com (email) Gaertk (at) aol.com 
gaku169 (at) hotmail.com (digest) "Denis Berthelsen" <gaku169 (at) hotmail.com> 
gbrandt (at) tampabayfcu.org (email) Grady Brandt <gbrandt (at) tampabayfcu.org> 
gcanyon (at) inspiredlogic.com (email) Geoff Canyon <gcanyon (at) inspiredlogic.com> 
genji_77 (at) hotmail.com (email) "Mike Smith" <genji_77 (at) hotmail.com> 
GibelMaria (at) aol.com (email) GibelMaria (at) aol.com 
gilligan487 (at) hotmail.com (email) "Erik Deup" <gilligan487 (at) hotmail.com> 
ginni.berger (at) juno.com (email) ginnilee p berger <ginni.berger (at) juno.com> 
gisho (at) puddleofgoo.com (email) "gisho" <gisho (at) puddleofgoo.com> 
glas (at) larp.com (email) Glas <glas (at) larp.com> 
Glenn.Gardner (at) kla-tencor.com (email)
gm_drmallio (at) hotmail.com (email) "Douglass Mallio" <gm_drmallio (at) hotmail.com> 
gnipp (at) hotmail.com (email) "Matthew Slowiak" <gnipp (at) hotmail.com> 
god_of_gnomes (at) hotmail.com (email) "K Horzmann" <god_of_gnomes (at) hotmail.com> 
gomi (at) pollywog.com (post)
gomi (at) speakeasy.net (email) Gomi no Sensei <gomi (at) speakeasy.net> 
go_and (at) fuq.it (email)
graitech (at) cogeco.ca (email) graitech (at) cogeco.ca 
greatcthulhu1 (at) yahoo.com (email) Oscar Rios <greatcthulhu1 (at) yahoo.com> 
greyw01f (at) hotmail.com (email) "Jon Carey" <greyw01f (at) hotmail.com> 
grzm (at) grzm.pp.se (digest) Gunnar Blomberg <grzm (at) grzm.pp.se> 
haerandir (at) hotmail.com (email) "Jesse Thomas" <haerandir (at) hotmail.com> 
hans117 (at) yahoo.com (email) Hans Schweitzer <hans117 (at) yahoo.com> 
harpere (at) gmail.com (email) Elizabeth Harper <harpere (at) gmail.com> 
hats5 (at) cisbec.net (email) "The Lehman's" <hats5 (at) cisbec.net> 
Hereward (at) rogers.com (email) "Gary Russell" <Hereward (at) rogers.com> 
hhertzof (at) panix.com (email) Hilary Hertzoff <hhertzof (at) panix.com> 
holden (at) oddjob.uchicago.edu (digest) Bradford Holden <holden (at) oddjob.uchicago.edu> 
hologram (at) algonet.se (email) Nicklas Andersson <hologram (at) algonet.se> 
holyconelia (at) hotmail.com (email) "william wheeler" <holyconelia (at) hotmail.com> 
howard.brazee (at) cusys.edu (post)
howard (at) brazee.net (email) "Howard Brazee" <howard (at) brazee.net> 
hyrum (at) otherworlds.cx (email) "R. Hyrum Savage" <hyrum (at) otherworlds.cx> 
iambluehearmeroar (at) yahoo.com (email) Blue <iambluehearmeroar (at) yahoo.com> 
iceman32708 (at) yahoo.com (email) MARTIN FRIEDMAN <iceman32708 (at) yahoo.com> 
ifurita (at) el-hazard.net (email) Ravi Duvvuri <ifurita (at) el-hazard.net> 
igalbraith (at) ozonline.com.au (email) igalbraith (at) ozonline.com.au (Ian Galbraith) 
ijamie (at) sympatico.ca (email) "Ian sympatico" <ijamie (at) sympatico.ca> 
ike (at) manor.org (email) Ike Porter <ike (at) manor.org> 
ikep (at) umbc.edu (email) Ike Porter <ikep (at) umbc.edu> 
incitor (at) whack.org (email) incitor <incitor (at) whack.org> 
j.clendening (at) verizon.net (email) "Verizon" <j.clendening (at) verizon.net> 
J.Millen-99 (at) student.lboro.ac.uk (email) "Jim Millen" <J.Millen-99 (at) student.lboro.ac.uk> 
jackland (at) mail.ru (email) JC <jackland (at) mail.ru> 
jajohns (at) temporalspace.com (email) "Jamie A. Johns" <jajohns (at) temporalspace.com> 
jalaubacker (at) mindspring.com (email) "Jim Laubacker" <jalaubacker (at) mindspring.com> 
jalipaz (at) stanford.edu (email) Julie Alipaz <jalipaz (at) stanford.edu> 
jamesandmary.burbidge (at) sympatico.ca (email) James and Mary Burbidge <jamesandmary.burbidge (at) sympatico.ca>
jbdelong (at) uclink.berkeley.edu (email) Brad DeLong <delong (at) econ.Berkeley.EDU> 
jdbone (at) hotmail.com (email) "Jimmie Bone" <jdbone (at) hotmail.com> 
jeanninenorris (at) yahoo.com (email) Jeannine Norris <jeanninenorris (at) yahoo.com> 
jedijane (at) ev1.net (email) "M. Goepp" <jedijane (at) ev1.net> 
jennalyn (at) intercom.net (email) Jennalyn <jennalyn (at) intercom.net> 
jerry_friedman (at) yahoo.com (email) Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman (at) yahoo.com> 
jetdragon (at) comcast.net (email) Jessica <jetdragon (at) comcast.net> 
jhereg69 (at) earthlink.net (email) Jose Marquez<jhereg69 (at) earthlink.net> 
jimkatz (at) ix.netcom.com (email) Jim Katz <jimkatz (at) ix.netcom.com> 
jjnichol (at) mit.edu (email) Joy Jennifer Nicholson <jjnichol (at) MIT.EDU> 
jlblists (at) eljen.net (email) "Jennifer Barber" <jlblists (at) eljen.net> 
jmalkoff (at) verizon.net (email) "Jason Malkoff" <jmalkoff (at) verizon.net> 
jocelyncassidy (at) hotmail.com (email) "Jocelyn Cassidy" <jocelyncassidy (at) hotmail.com> 
joecrow (at) access4less.net (email) Joe Crow <joecrow (at) access4less.net> 
joelynch (at) charter.net (digest)
joelynch (at) sbcglobal.net (digest)
John.Tennyson (at) mckesson.com (email)
Joseph.Bono (at) yale.edu (email)
jot (at) chud.net (post)
jsimons (at) genelco.com (email) "Jim Simons" <jsimons (at) genelco.com> 
jtoth (at) megrez.org (email) Jim Toth <jtoth (at) megrez.org> 
jtrager (at) keyway.net (email) "Trager" <jtrager (at) keyway.net> 
juliette_torres (at) yahoo.com (digest) Juliette Torres <juliette_torres (at) yahoo.com> 
kate.nepveu (at) gmail.com (email) Kate Nepveu <kate.nepveu (at) gmail.com> 
kate (at) mail.browser.net (email) Kate Jones <kate (at) mail.browser.net> 
kcr (at) midsouth.rr.com (email) "Kevin Raybould" <kcr (at) midsouth.rr.com> 
khaavren (at) hotmail.com (email) "Khaavren Castlerock" <khaavren (at) hotmail.com> 
kknolte (at) ecity.net (email) K Kuhn <kknolte (at) ecity.net> 
kkoester (at) email.ers.usda.gov (email) Ken Koester <kkoester (at) email.ers.usda.gov> 
kmcd (at) uclink.berkeley.edu (email) Kelley McDonald <kmcd (at) uclink.berkeley.edu> 
knots4kcs (at) yahoo.com (email) Kenneth Stone <knots4kcs (at) yahoo.com> 
kpadgett1 (at) cox.net (email) "Ken Padgett" <kpadgett1 (at) cox.net> 
KReaves789 (at) aol.com (email) KReaves789 (at) aol.com 
kublakhan73 (at) hotmail.com (email) "Jeremy Tassoff" <kublakhan73 (at) hotmail.com> 
kunimon (at) ya.com (email) "=?iso-8859-1?B?UmFt824gUGXxYQ==?=" <kunimon (at) ya.com> 
kyonne (at) shaw.ca (digest) Joy Mainer <kyonne (at) shaw.ca> 
kyonne (at) shaw.ca (digest) kyonne <kyonne (at) shaw.ca> 
kyonne (at) shaw.ca (email) Joy Mainer <kyonne (at) shaw.ca> 
kyonne (at) shaw.ca (email) kyonne <kyonne (at) shaw.ca> 
lady_gh0stw0lf (at) yahoo.com (digest)
lady_mage16 (at) yahoo.com (email)
lairdb (at) gmail.com (email) "L. Broadfield" <lairdb (at) gmail.com> 
Lathia (at) nwlink.com (email) "Lathia" <Lathia (at) nwlink.com> 
laurao (at) ix.netcom.com (digest) "Laura Osgood" <laurao (at) ix.netcom.com> 
lazarus33pjf (at) cox.net (email) lazarus <lazarus33pjf (at) cox.net> 
linden (at) uchicago.edu (email) AnnaLinden Weller <linden (at) uchicago.edu> 
lister (at) insaneninjahero.com (email) Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert <lister (at) insaneninjahero.com> 
lmbrassard (at) yahoo.com (email) Laurie Brassard <lmbrassard (at) yahoo.com> 
log0n5150 (at) hotmail.com (email) "Jeff Gibbons" <Log0n5150 (at) hotmail.com> 
lqmiller (at) ev1.net (email) Louann Miller <lqmiller (at) ev1.net> 
lydy (at) demesne.com (email) Lydia Nickerson <lydy (at) demesne.com> 
Lys (at) charter.net (email) "Lys Swift" <Lys (at) charter.net> 
MaidensPowrSlave (at) aol.com (email) MaidensPowrSlave (at) aol.com 
mak (at) akamai.com (email) Marty Kagan <mak (at) akamai.com> 
malte.schuru (at) gmx.net (email) Malte Schulz-Ruhtenberg <malte.schuru (at) gmx.net> 
mam (at) theworld.com (email) Mark A Mandel <mam (at) theworld.com> 
mamandel (at) unagi.cis.upenn.edu (post)
mark_englehart (at) cox.net (email)
marni (at) cfl.rr.com (digest) "marni on Roadrunner" <marni (at) cfl.rr.com> 
martin_wohlert (at) hotmail.com (email) "Martin Wohlert" <martin_wohlert (at) hotmail.com> 
marty (at) kaganite.com (email) Marty Kagan <marty (at) kaganite.com> 
matthew (at) infodancer.org (email) Matthew Hunter <matthew (at) infodancer.org> 
mattonim (at) engineering.ucsb.edu (email) Michael Mattoni <mattonim (at) engineering.ucsb.edu> 
mauriziopaoluzi (at) inwind.it (email) Maurizio Paoluzi <mauriziopaoluzi (at) inwind.it> 
melalvai (at) kemenel.org (email) "Rachel L. Ruhlen" <melalvai (at) kemenel.org> 
melalvai (at) kemenel.org (email) Melalvai <melalvai (at) kemenel.org> 
mendo666 (at) hotmail.com (email) "Ian Edwards" <mendo666 (at) hotmail.com> 
mia_mcdavid (at) comcast.net (email)
michaelangelo (at) tripp-russo.com (email)
michi (at) mercury.co.il (email) Michi Kossowsky <michi (at) mercury.co.il> 
mike.melton (at) cox.net (email) "Mike Melton" <mike.melton (at) cox.net> 
mike (at) plokta.com (email)
Mirsathia (at) comcast.net (email)
misao (at) shaw.ca (email) Misao <misao (at) shaw.ca> 
Mistykalia (at) aol.com (digest) Mistykalia (at) aol.com 
mixtli (at) ix.netcom.com (email) "Ian Warner" <mixtli (at) ix.netcom.com> 
mkbister (at) charter.net (email) "Mary Bister" <mkbister (at) charter.net> 
mklahn (at) mac.com (email) Matthew Klahn <mklahn (at) mac.com> 
mneme (at) hagbard.io.com (post)
mneme (at) io.com (email) Joshua Kronengold <mneme (at) io.com> 
moghan_david (at) yahoo.com (email) Robert Opramolla <moghan_david (at) yahoo.com> 
moodygrrl (at) earthlink.net (email) "Lori Reeder" <moodygrrl (at) earthlink.net> 
moonblossom (at) dodgenet.com (email) "Dale Rippke" <moonblossom (at) dodgenet.com> 
moonhunt_ (at) hotmail.com (email) "Guess Who" <moonhunt_ (at) hotmail.com> 
mr1 (at) rcosta.com (email) "Michele Riccio" <mr1 (at) rcosta.com> 
mrichard (at) efn.org (email) Richard <mrichard (at) efn.org> 
mtiller (at) ntlworld.com (email) "Mark Tiller" <mtiller (at) ntlworld.com> 
mvillar2424 (at) earthlink.net (email) "Marcos Villaroman" <mvillar2424 (at) earthlink.net> 
mwwings (at) owt.com (email) Geoff Paulson <mwwings (at) owt.com> 
nadilday (at) yahoo.com (email) Nathan Dilday <nadilday (at) yahoo.com> 
naraku (at) comcast.net (email)
NarnRebel (at) aol.com (digest)
nathan (at) player.org (email) "Nathan P. Bardsley" <nathan (at) player.org> 
noan4 (at) hotmail.com (email) "Jeff Drake" <noan4 (at) hotmail.com> 
nope (at) galon.org.il (email) Nope <nope (at) galon.org.il> 
nstacy (at) cinci.rr.com (email) "Noah Stacy" <nstacy (at) cinci.rr.com> 
nthuleen (at) students.wisc.edu (email) Nancy Thuleen <nthuleen (at) students.wisc.edu> 
omaha (at) mpls.cx (email) Felix Strates <omaha (at) mpls.cx> 
Orchidkngt (at) aol.com (digest) Orchidkngt (at) aol.com 
otaking (at) cwru.edu (email) James Vogel <otaking (at) cwru.edu> 
paul (at) finalchallenge.net (email) "Paul Hancock" <paul (at) finalchallenge.net> 
paulw (at) videoideas.com (email) "paul" <paulw (at) videoideas.com> 
pereillo (at) optonline.net (email)
peter (at) maranci.net (email) "Peter Maranci" <peter (at) maranci.net> 
pgranzeau (at) cox.net (email) "Peter H. Granzeau" <pgranzeau (at) cox.net> 
philiph (at) slac.stanford.edu (email) Philip Hart <philiph (at) SLAC.Stanford.EDU> 
phoenix (at) ugcs.caltech.edu (email) Damien Sullivan <phoenix (at) ugcs.caltech.edu> 
Phoenixrave (at) sc.rr.com (digest) "Robert Pierce" <Phoenixrave (at) sc.rr.com> 
phoenixwolf27 (at) yahoo.com (email) "Michael Wolf \(XBOX\)" <mwolf (at) microsoft.com> 
pistole (at) alumni.utexas.net (email) "Richard H. Pistole" <pistole (at) alumni.utexas.net> 
pkeck (at) storm.he.net (email) pkeck <pkeck (at) paulkeck.com> 
platedlizard (at) earthlink.net (email) "Gloria Carr" <platedlizard (at) earthlink.net> 
polstein (at) wsvn.com (email) "Olstein, Phillip" <polstein (at) wsvn.com> 
poptest (at) ghytred.com (email) "Simon Smith" <poptest (at) ghytred.com> 
porthos (at) calweb.com (email) John Hutton <porthos (at) calweb.com> 
PQuigleyII (at) aol.com (email) PQuigleyII (at) aol.com 
Profesor_Bacterio (at) ono.com (email) "FAC" <Profesor_Bacterio (at) ono.com> 
qag1964 (at) excite.com (email) "Quentin" <qag1964 (at) excite.com> 
Raellew (at) aol.com (email)
rakehell (at) usa.net (email) G Wilhelm <rakehell (at) usa.net> 
ray (at) madrabbit.org (email) ray (at) madrabbit.org (Ray Lee) 
rcarson (at) rcarson.com (digest) "Reid Carson" <rcarson (at) rcarson.com> 
rct9911 (at) comcast.net (email) "Rebecca" <rct9911 (at) comcast.net> 
reader (at) estebandito.info (email) Stephan Leicht <reader (at) estebandito.info> 
redmeerkat (at) earthlink.net (email) Sean Hayden <redmeerkat (at) earthlink.net> 
ReVibe68 (at) aol.com (email)
rfzabick (at) punkgrok.org (digest) Roman Zabicki <rfzabick (at) punkgrok.org> 
RHRahl1 (at) aol.com (email) RHRahl1 (at) aol.com 
rickc (at) silcom.com (email) "Richard Cunningham" <rickc (at) silcom.com> 
righel (at) email.msn.com (post)
rislyn23 (at) hotmail.com (email) "Rislyn Feruch" <rislyn23 (at) hotmail.com> 
rmckenzi (at) dti.net (digest) Brookes McKenzie <rmckenzi (at) dti.net> 
rone (at) ennui.org (email) rone (at) ennui.org (figmentality) 
rst_98 (at) hotmail.com (email) "RST ------" <rst_98 (at) hotmail.com> 
ryan (at) wonko.com (email) Ryan Grove <ryan (at) wonko.com> 
s.schwenk (at) wtal.de (email) "Sebastian Schwenk" <s.schwenk (at) wtal.de> 
s1burns (at) ucsd.edu (email) "Shawn" <s1burns (at) ucsd.edu> 
saint_erythros (at) lameassbitch.com (email) "M J" <saint_erythros (at) lameassbitch.com> 
Sams0n (at) aol.com (email)
Scott.Burrington (at) getronics.com (email)
scott (at) cjhunter.com (email) "Scott Schultz" <scott (at) cjhunter.com> 
scottfweintraub (at) gmail.com (digest)
scs (at) ans.net (post)
scs (at) di.org (email)
scs (at) lokkur.dexter.mi.us (post)
scs (at) uu.net (post)
seanprice (at) gmail.com (email) Sean Price <seanprice (at) gmail.com> 
seanstarratt1 (at) msn.com (email) "Sean Starratt" <seanstarratt1 (at) msn.com> 
seitherin (at) houston.rr.com (email) "Seitherin" <seitherin (at) houston.rr.com> 
severian (at) webone.com.au (email) Jonathan Pelling <severian (at) webone.com.au> 
shad.muegge (at) gmail.com (email) Shad Muegge <shad.muegge (at) gmail.com> 
shad (at) muegge.org (email) "Shad Muegge" <shad (at) muegge.org> 
shafedog205555-brustfan (at) yahoo.com (email) S SHafer <shafedog205555-brustfan (at) yahoo.com> 
shannon3d (at) yahoo.com (email) Shannon Wimberly <shannon3d (at) yahoo.com> 
simbelmyne (at) softhome.net (email) Emily Frawley <simbelmyne (at) softhome.net> 
singram (at) videotron.ca (email) "Katherine Britt" <kbritt (at) videotron.ca> 
sirchuck (at) macomb.com (email) John Mietus <sirchuck (at) macomb.com> 
sjwerbin (at) epix.net (digest)
skychild70 (at) hotmail.com (email) "paul w" <skychild70 (at) hotmail.com> 
skzb (at) dreamcafe.com (email) (Steven Brust) 
slhalter (at) slhalter.com (email) Steven Halter <slhalter (at) slhalter.com> 
slothman (at) amurgsval.org (email) Max Rible <slothman (at) amurgsval.org> 
smed51 (at) yahoo.com (digest) Smed <smed51 (at) yahoo.com> 
smoosmang (at) t-online.de (email) smoosmang (at) t-online.de (Sven Moosmang) 
Spamme13 (at) aol.com (digest) Spamme13 (at) aol.com 
spiderman92 (at) comcast.net (email)
sraun (at) fireopal.org (email) Scott Raun <sraun (at) fireopal.org> 
Starshadw (at) aol.com (email)
stepheninhouston (at) ireland.com (digest) "stephen garvey" <stepheninhouston (at) ireland.com> 
steve.burnap (at) gmail.com (email) Steve Burnap <steve.burnap (at) gmail.com> 
stikjok (at) hotmail.com (email) "Dave Cooper" <stikjok (at) hotmail.com> 
stlatos (at) yahoo.com (email) Sean Whalen <stlatos (at) yahoo.com> 
tackygoldring (at) netscape.net (email) tacky <tackygoldring (at) netscape.net> 
taltos07 (at) earthlink.net (email) "Curtis Humes" <taltos07 (at) earthlink.net> 
tatters (at) newsguy.com (email) Derek Tattersall <tatters (at) newsguy.com> 
terrick (at) cox.net (email) "ryan" <terrick (at) cox.net> 
teza (at) rupture.net (email) Teza <teza (at) rupture.net> 
tfoster118 (at) comcast.net (email) Travis Foster <tfoster118 (at) comcast.net> 
THA2112 (at) aol.com (email) THA2112 (at) aol.com 
theancient (at) mindspring.com (email) "Tom Miller" <theancient (at) mindspring.com> 
thefr0g (at) hotmail.com (email) "The Fr0g" <thefr0g (at) hotmail.com> 
thepsychosmurf (at) hotmail.com (email) "Chris Sullins" <thepsychosmurf (at) hotmail.com> 
thesteve19 (at) hotmail.com (email) "Steve R." <thesteve19 (at) hotmail.com> 
Thomarus (at) carolina.rr.com (email) Mike Flanigan <Thomarus (at) carolina.rr.com> 
tiassa (at) xmission.com (email) Megan Schreiber <tiassa (at) xmission.com> 
TimmFeely (at) aol.com (digest)
TimN (at) rcn.com (email)
timothypaxtonowen (at) hotmail.com (email) "Timothy Owen" <timothypaxtonowen (at) hotmail.com> 
tjstokes (at) adelphia.net (email) Tom Stokes <tjstokes (at) adelphia.net> 
tky1 (at) rcn.com (email) tky1 (at) rcn.com (Thomas Yan) 
tlinkenback (at) cox.net (digest) "Tom Linkenback" <tlinkenback (at) cox.net> 
tmer (at) eudoramail.com (email) "Barbara Baj" <tmer (at) eudoramail.com> 
toubib21 (at) yahoo.com (email) Toubib <toubib21 (at) yahoo.com> 
trevor (at) fiatal.net (email) Trevor Fiatal <trevor (at) seven.com> 
tsarren (at) alyra.org (email) Kat <tsarren (at) alyra.org> 
tyday (at) phantomemail.com (email) <tyday (at) phantomemail.com> 
T_Johnson (at) speakeasy.net (email)
umbraenoctis (at) hotmail.com (email) "James Griffin" <umbraenoctis (at) hotmail.com> 
unhatched (at) hotmail.com (email) "Denis Richard" <unhatched (at) hotmail.com> 
usagigoya (at) hotmail.com (email) "Steve Hubbell" <usagigoya (at) hotmail.com> 
vaklam (at) comcast.net (email) Brian Cooksey <vaklam (at) comcast.net> 
valerie (at) drizzle.com (email) <valerie (at) drizzle.com> 
veate (at) yahoo.com (digest) "Ms. Helle" <veate (at) yahoo.com> 
vidroth (at) hotmail.com (digest) "Chris Bisanar" <vidroth (at) hotmail.com> 
vtaltos (at) earthlink.net (email) "Malcolm" <vtaltos (at) earthlink.net> 
walshm (at) ipfw.edu (email) "Matthew Walsh" <walshm (at) ipfw.edu> 
wamydia23 (at) yahoo.com (email) wamydia <wamydia23 (at) yahoo.com> 
warbi (at) warbi.net (email) "warbi" <warbi (at) warbi.net> 
warlord (at) dragon.com (email) "Warlord" <warlord (at) dragon.com> 
warlord (at) dragon.com (email) Alan <alan (at) dragon.com> 
wayne.wagenaar (at) rogers.com (email) Wayne Wagenaar <wayne.wagenaar (at) rogers.com> 
willm (at) emailme.com.au (email) "Will Marshall" <will (at) emailme.com.au> 
wmo+dragaera (at) rebma.pro-ns.net (email) "Bill O'Hanlon" <wmo (at) rebma.pro-ns.net> 
xmasberry (at) mail.com (email) "holly christmas" <xmasberry (at) mail.com> 
yaga (at) berkano.pair.com (email) yaga (at) berkano.pair.com 
yaga (at) yaga-ysgs.com (email) Pb Sanderson <yaga (at) yaga-ysgs.com> 
yhcrana13 (at) hotmail.com (email) "A. Nonymous" <yhcrana13 (at) hotmail.com> 
yukio_toko (at) yahoo.com (email) yukiotoko imp-thing <yukio_toko (at) yahoo.com> 
zaphod (at) charter.net (email) "Greg Schwartz" <zaphod (at) charter.net> 
zardoz (at) weirdness.com (email) Robert Sallade <zardoz (at) weirdness.com> 
zarkon (at) illrepute.org (email) John Klein <zarkon (at) illrepute.org> 
zerika (at) gmail.com (email) Zerika <zerika (at) gmail.com> 
zizban (at) adelphia.net (email) Chris Turkel <zizban (at) adelphia.net> 


From scott at cjhunter.com  Fri Sep 17 15:29:50 2004
From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:29:50 -0700
Subject: Pararectal - A real word?
In-Reply-To: <200409172204.i8HM4dRM000992@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com>
Message-ID: <5ceb01c49d05$df224960$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>

My nitpick for the day. A couple of people on this list have tossed this
word around now. From the context, I can figure that it means "speculative",
"conjectural", "theoretical", etc...

Try as I might, however, I can't find any evidence that this an actual word.
The dictionaries and thesauri at my disposal don't contain it and the web
keeps feeding me surgical websites dealing in and around certain human
orifices.

What is this word and where does it come from? Enquiring minds want to know.

Scott Schultz
scott at cjhunter.com




From mia_mcdavid at comcast.net  Fri Sep 17 15:14:42 2004
From: mia_mcdavid at comcast.net (Mia McDavid)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:14:42 -0500
Subject: Pararectal - A real word?
In-Reply-To: <5ceb01c49d05$df224960$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
References: <5ceb01c49d05$df224960$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <414B61D2.4080604@comcast.net>


Scott Schultz wrote:

>My nitpick for the day. A couple of people on this list have tossed this
>word around now. From the context, I can figure that it means "speculative",
>  
>

Ummmm, would be be more recognizable as "something I just pulled out of 
my ass?"




From gomi at speakeasy.net  Fri Sep 17 15:37:04 2004
From: gomi at speakeasy.net (gomi at speakeasy.net)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 22:37:04 +0000
Subject: Pararectal - A real word?
Message-ID: <W605653064342171095460624@webmail1>

> My nitpick for the day. A couple of people on this list have tossed this
> word around now. From the context, I can figure that it means "speculative",
> "conjectural", "theoretical", etc...
> 
> Try as I might, however, I can't find any evidence that this an actual word.
> The dictionaries and thesauri at my disposal don't contain it and the web
> keeps feeding me surgical websites dealing in and around certain human
> orifices.
> 
> What is this word and where does it come from? Enquiring minds want to know.

It's an English version of the old legal term 'ex clunes', which is an intensified version of 'ex nihilo' when applied to the source of a particular line of reasoning.

pe




From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 17 15:39:51 2004
From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:39:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Pararectal - A real word?
In-Reply-To: <W605653064342171095460624@webmail1>
Message-ID: <20040917223951.30665.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com>

--- gomi at speakeasy.net wrote:

> > My nitpick for the day. A couple of people on this list have tossed
> this
> > word around now. From the context, I can figure that it means
> "speculative",
> > "conjectural", "theoretical", etc...
> > 
> > Try as I might, however, I can't find any evidence that this an actual
> word.
> > The dictionaries and thesauri at my disposal don't contain it and the
> web
> > keeps feeding me surgical websites dealing in and around certain human
> > orifices.
> > 
> > What is this word and where does it come from? Enquiring minds want to
> know.
> 
> It's an English version of the old legal term 'ex clunes', which is an
> intensified version of 'ex nihilo' when applied to the source of a
> particular line of reasoning.

Id est, "just thinking out my ass here".  It's well on its way to
becoming a real word, though, if the OED editors ever read this
list.

Jerry Friedman



		
_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
http://vote.yahoo.com


From warbi at warbi.net  Fri Sep 17 15:39:30 2004
From: warbi at warbi.net (warbi)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:39:30 -0700
Subject: Pararectal - A real word?
In-Reply-To: <414B61D2.4080604@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <PJELIDFPLNDLDLNDKOAJIEHNCEAA.warbi@warbi.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: Mia McDavid [mailto:mia_mcdavid at comcast.net]
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 3:15 PM
To: dragaera at dragaera.info
Subject: Re: Pararectal - A real word?



Scott Schultz wrote:

>My nitpick for the day. A couple of people on this list have tossed this
>word around now. From the context, I can figure that it means
"speculative",
>
>

Ummmm, would be be more recognizable as "something I just pulled out of
my ass?"

                            ****************

  LMAO!!!  I always assumed it meant something along the lines of "anal
retentive"  That's okay because according to Webster's Dictionary I am
pedantic since I insist on using "nauseated" over "nauseous"!  lol

                      warbi






From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 17:32:10 2004
From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:32:10 EDT
Subject: Differences between The Book of Jhereg and Jhereg
Message-ID: <1da.2adbd9fd.2e7cdc0a@aol.com>

S S Hafer wrote 9/17/2004 

>I haven't gotten an e-mail from the list since the 12th and 
>am writing to make sure that I'm not missing something.


Hi,

I was going to send this only to Mark A. Mandel about his 
Website.  But then I read the email from S S. Hafer.

I was trying to find something in The Book of Jhereg and
came across this difference between it and Jhereg.  This
is in reference to Mark's website section On Terminology.  

Jhereg Chapter 4, third paragraph, last sentence (page 49)

"He may be the highest-paid receptionist on Dragaera."

The Book of Jhereg same section (page 36)

"He may be the highest-paid receptionist in the world."


I think the reference Steven made to "set on Dragaera" 
in Acknowledgments in POTD was "introduced maliciously".

So those of us who read Jhereg in 1983 think of Dragaera
also as a world.  Heh, and so does anyone who reads the 
back cover of The Book of Jhereg.  The back cover of both 
books say "The first was a smattering of witchcraft--
badly thought of on Dragaera".   


When I used Dragaera Search to see if this was mentioned, 
I came across the whole amorphia/chaos change.  I had 
thought the only differences were page numbers.   

Then I remember reading on Mark's website about Steven's
editor putting in a line about "our native creatures" and
I checked and it is gone from the Book of Jhereg.

Jhereg (page 3)  "Nothing of any significance there, it 
was mostly Jhereg, or an occasional Teckla (each Dragaeran 
House bears the name of one of our native creatures), who
came into our restaurant."

The Book of Jhereg (page 4) "Nothing of any significance 
there, it was mostly Jhereg, or an occasional Teckla, who
came into our restaurant."


I apologize if you already knew this.

Bye.

Linda G.

From rct9911 at comcast.net  Fri Sep 17 17:33:02 2004
From: rct9911 at comcast.net (Rebecca)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:33:02 -0500
Subject: Pararectal - A real word?
References: <20040917223951.30665.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002f01c49d17$0f2fdc60$6601a8c0@BOB>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jerry Friedman" <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
To: <gomi at speakeasy.net>; <dragaera at dragaera.info>
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 5:39 PM
Subject: Re: Pararectal - A real word?


> --- gomi at speakeasy.net wrote:
>
> > > My nitpick for the day. A couple of people on this list have tossed
> > this
> > > word around now. From the context, I can figure that it means
> > "speculative",
> > > "conjectural", "theoretical", etc...
> > >
> > > Try as I might, however, I can't find any evidence that this an actual
> > word.
> > > The dictionaries and thesauri at my disposal don't contain it and the
> > web
> > > keeps feeding me surgical websites dealing in and around certain human
> > > orifices.
> > >
> > > What is this word and where does it come from? Enquiring minds want to
> > know.
> >
> > It's an English version of the old legal term 'ex clunes', which is an
> > intensified version of 'ex nihilo' when applied to the source of a
> > particular line of reasoning.
>
> Id est, "just thinking out my ass here".  It's well on its way to
> becoming a real word, though, if the OED editors ever read this
> list.
>
> Jerry Friedman
>


The dictionary.com entry had a link to an online medical dictionary.
Pararectal specifically, in a medical sense, means "near the rectum or
rectus muscle." Good word to use in casual conversation.



From davids at Kithrup.COM  Fri Sep 17 17:36:31 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:36:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Pararectal - A real word?
In-Reply-To: <5ceb01c49d05$df224960$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040917172338.27362A-100000@kithrup.com>

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004, Scott Schultz wrote:

>My nitpick for the day. A couple of people on this list have
>tossed this word around now. From the context, I can figure
>that it means "speculative", "conjectural", "theoretical", etc...
>
>Try as I might, however, I can't find any evidence that this
>an actual word.

Of course it's an actual word.  It's got vowels and consonants and
everything.  It also has Latin and/or Greek roots, which means it
has an ancient and thoroughly respectable pedigree.  Unless you
don't believe in Greek or Latin, in which case, you would probably
be more comfortable in the world of "Uncleftish Beholding". 

>The dictionaries and thesauri at my disposal don't contain it and
>the web keeps feeding me surgical websites dealing in and around
>certain human orifices.

And well it might.  Obviously, "pararectal" has more than one
meaning, as all 20-dollar words should.

Did you search the list archives? [...]  OK, it's not in the
index.  Huh.

Nevertheless:

   http://dragaera.info/mailinglists/archive.cgi?1:mss:10402

In a recent return to the OED, I noted that the
Latin "parere" means "to produce, to bring forth".


>What is this word and where does it come from?

Note that the origin of this usage of the word pararectal is
also pararectal.  Which is highly appropriate (unlike, for
example, the word "abbreviation", which is far too long).

> Enquiring minds want to know.
>

I strongly encourage the spread and use of the phrase "pararectal
ideation", and the word "pararectal" itself alone.  I neither
require nor desire any sort of credit.


I've sort of given up hope on "ambiguifies", which caused more of a
ruckus, and even inspired doggerel, but seems to have not had legs. 




From dd-b at dd-b.net  Fri Sep 17 17:38:14 2004
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:38:14 -0500
Subject: Pararectal - A real word?
In-Reply-To: <5ceb01c49d05$df224960$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> (Scott Schultz's
 message of "Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:29:50 -0700")
References: <5ceb01c49d05$df224960$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <m21xh0v2bt.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>

"Scott Schultz" <scott at cjhunter.com> writes:

> My nitpick for the day. A couple of people on this list have tossed
> this word around now. From the context, I can figure that it means
> "speculative", "conjectural", "theoretical", etc...
>
> Try as I might, however, I can't find any evidence that this an
> actual word.  The dictionaries and thesauri at my disposal don't
> contain it and the web keeps feeding me surgical websites dealing in
> and around certain human orifices.
>
> What is this word and where does it come from? Enquiring minds want
> to know.

As I remember it, it was made up right here.   I think people were too
shy to say "I just pulled this idea out of my ass", and wanted a
cooler way to say it.  "Pararectal ideation" works nicely IMHO.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Fri Sep 17 17:48:46 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:48:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Pararectal - A real word?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040917172338.27362A-100000@kithrup.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040917172338.27362A-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0409171744380.27965@rdpc11.slac.stanford.edu>



On Fri, 17 Sep 2004, David Silberstein wrote:

> Obviously, "pararectal" has more than one meaning,
> as all 20-dollar words should.

Can one coin a $20 word?

[google]

I guess so:
http://www.amergold.com/vault/20LibertyDoubleEagles.shtml


From jhereg69 at earthlink.net  Fri Sep 17 19:54:42 2004
From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:54:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Pronounciation List
Message-ID: <25080475.1095476082807.JavaMail.root@donald.psp.pas.earthlink.net>

Folks, we're about 12 hours away from DDB's deadline for words to be added to the list, in the hopes that Steve will record sound files for some more of them. I'll put out another update in a few hours with my list of words that aren't on the existing list (I'm still at work, so I can't access my list), but if there is something you really want to have added, let me know (and include the book in which it appears). I've been re-reading starting with Jhereg, but I've only gotten to halfway through Taltos, so those of you who are ahead of me in your reading/re-reading and want to contribute, please do so.

Jose

--
Jose Marquez
resume at hackwater.com
http://www.hackwater.com.nyud.net:8090


From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com  Fri Sep 17 20:47:02 2004
From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 23:47:02 EDT
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person  
Message-ID: <fd.18d564d.2e7d09b6@aol.com>

Mike Flanigan wrote on 17 Sep 2004

>What cons are those?

In response to Louann Miller writing on 17 Sep 2004

>Steven Brust is going to be the GOH at a con local to me,
>ConDFW, in February. I'm looking forward to meeting him.

Hi,

When I read Louann's email, I thought she was talking about two
conventions one called GOH and one called ConDFW.  I thought 
the ConDFW was the Confusion 31 which is mentioned on 
http://dragaera.info/events/  But that is in January. After 
finding ConDFW on the web, I realized that GOH meant Guest 
of Honor.  Heh.

I submitted the ConDFW to http://dragaera.info/events/ 
even though it is not my event.  I hope that was okay.

Here are the websites for the three upcoming cons:

UberCon IV
October 15-17, 2004 Steven Brust Guest
Seacaucus, New Jersey

Bato001 at aol.com wrote on 09/09/2004
under Subject Re: Ubercon IV in Secaucus, NJ

>In a message dated 09/09/2004 5:50:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
>scott at cjhunter.com writes:
>http://www.ubercon.com

Confusion 31
January 21-23, 2005 Steven Brust Toastmaster
Troy, Michigan

http://stilyagi.org/cons/2005/index.php

ConDFW
February 25-27, 2005 Steven Brust Guest of Honor
Richardson, Texas

http://www.condfw.org/

Bye.

Linda G.


 

From jhereg69 at earthlink.net  Sat Sep 18 00:10:29 2004
From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 03:10:29 -0400
Subject: Pronunciation List
In-Reply-To: <25080475.1095476082807.JavaMail.root@donald.psp.pas.earthlink.net>
References: <25080475.1095476082807.JavaMail.root@donald.psp.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <414BDF65.3010206@earthlink.net>

Jose Marquez wrote:
> Folks, we're about 12 hours away from DDB's deadline for words to be
> added to the list, in the hopes that Steve will record sound files
> for some more of them. I'll put out another update in a few hours
> with my list of words that aren't on the existing list (I'm still at
> work, so I can't access my list), but if there is something you
> really want to have added, let me know (and include the book in which
> it appears). I've been re-reading starting with Jhereg, but I've only
> gotten to halfway through Taltos, so those of you who are ahead of me
> in your reading/re-reading and want to contribute, please do so.

As promised, my list of words that were not in the existing 
pronunciation guide, somewhat prioritized with the more interesting 
words at the top (I understand that the existing guide gets priority, 
but I won't stop you if you do a few from this list), to be added at 
will. Format is word with book underneath. Sometime around noon today 
I'll send the full list of new and existing words to the list, and DDB 
and Steve can take it from there.


Dri'Chazik a Tukknaro Dzur
TLoCB

Hwdf'rjaanci
Orca

Tagichatn
Yendi

Kathana e'Marish'Chala
TPG

Cly!ng Fr'ngtha
Issola

G'hair of Clyferns
TPG

Jggo!f'tha
TPG

S'Yang Stones
Yendi, various

Sivali-Yangorra
TPG

Shereba
Yendi, Teckla, various (shareba in Yendi)

Undauntra
Yendi, various

Quaysh
Teckla

Jose
-- 
Jose Marquez            \  Cthulhu 2004
jhereg69 at hackwater.com   \  Why vote for
http://www.hackwater.com  \  the lesser evil?



From dd-b at dd-b.net  Sat Sep 18 00:43:11 2004
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 02:43:11 -0500
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person
In-Reply-To: <fd.18d564d.2e7d09b6@aol.com> (FRIEDA2133@aol.com's message of
 "Fri, 17 Sep 2004 23:47:02 EDT")
References: <fd.18d564d.2e7d09b6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m2isact434.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>

FRIEDA2133 at aol.com writes:

> Mike Flanigan wrote on 17 Sep 2004
>
>>What cons are those?
>
> In response to Louann Miller writing on 17 Sep 2004
>
>>Steven Brust is going to be the GOH at a con local to me,
>>ConDFW, in February. I'm looking forward to meeting him.
>
> Hi,
>
> When I read Louann's email, I thought she was talking about two
> conventions one called GOH and one called ConDFW.  I thought 
> the ConDFW was the Confusion 31 which is mentioned on 
> http://dragaera.info/events/  But that is in January. After 
> finding ConDFW on the web, I realized that GOH meant Guest 
> of Honor.  Heh.
>
> I submitted the ConDFW to http://dragaera.info/events/ 
> even though it is not my event.  I hope that was okay.

Yep.  The most important thing is to submit the website, too (which
you did); because I check what's been submitted before posting it, and
that makes the checking easy.  

Should be showing on the site now.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com  Sat Sep 18 09:38:09 2004
From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 09:38:09 -0700
Subject: Pararectal - A real word?
Message-ID: <BAY22-F354dzgrQkPOh000064a7@hotmail.com>

Hmmm.

I always thought it was from two parts- para- approximating "Half", and 
rectal- approximating, rectal.
Ergo, I thought it was to construed as a half-a$$ed guess. As opposed to a 
WAG

James Griffin,
Still Another Vlad faN


>From: David Dyer-Bennet <dd-b at dd-b.net>
>To: dragaera at dragaera.info
>Subject: Re: Pararectal - A real word?
>Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:38:14 -0500
>
>"Scott Schultz" <scott at cjhunter.com> writes:
>
> > My nitpick for the day. A couple of people on this list have tossed
> > this word around now. From the context, I can figure that it means
> > "speculative", "conjectural", "theoretical", etc...
> >
> > Try as I might, however, I can't find any evidence that this an
> > actual word.  The dictionaries and thesauri at my disposal don't
> > contain it and the web keeps feeding me surgical websites dealing in
> > and around certain human orifices.
> >
> > What is this word and where does it come from? Enquiring minds want
> > to know.
>
>As I remember it, it was made up right here.   I think people were too
>shy to say "I just pulled this idea out of my ass", and wanted a
>cooler way to say it.  "Pararectal ideation" works nicely IMHO.
>--
>David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
>RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
>Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> 
><http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
>Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! 
hthttp://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/



From jhereg69 at earthlink.net  Sat Sep 18 11:27:02 2004
From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 14:27:02 -0400
Subject: Pronunciation List
Message-ID: <414C7DF6.80803@earthlink.net>

The list is sent out to DDB; here is what I sent him (three times, no 
less; I hope he doesn't hate me by now).

----------------

I'd love to hear Steve record Morrolan's and Aliera's full names, as 
this would resolve the whole e'Drien/e'Kieron "How is that supposed to 
flow?" question.

Note that I left book references from the original intact pronunciation 
guide intact, even though in a lot of cases, TLoCB is not the first 
reference to the character/word. I added book references for any word 
that didn't already have one, and I tried to make sure that in those 
cases, it was the first appearance that was referenced. Also, I'm using 
the original Ace paperbacks for Jhereg through Orca, as I don't have any 
of the compendiums; I'm not certain, but I think this might affect 
spelling in some cases (I heard corrections/changes were made in the 
compendia). On to the list:

WORDS NOT ALREADY IN PRONUNCIATION GUIDE


Dri'Chazik a Tukknaro Dzur
   from TLoCB

Hwdf'rjaanci
   from Orca

Tagichatn
   from Yendi

Kathana e'Marish'Chala
   from TPG

Cly!ng Fr'ngtha
   from Issola

G'hair of Clyferns
   from TPG

Jggo!f'tha
   from TPG

S'Yang Stones
   from Yendi

Sivali-Yangorra
   from TPG

Shereba
   from Yendi, Teckla (shareba in Yendi, shereba in Teckla)

Undauntra
   from Yendi

Quaysh
   from Teckla

Ishtvan
   from Yendi

Rolaan
   from Yendi

Loraan
   from Taltos

G'aereth
   from TPG

Gyorg Lavode
   from TPG

Gant-Aerethia
   from TPG

Jenicor e'Terics
   from TPG


THE EXISTING PRONUNCIATION GUIDE, prioritized to some degree (meaning 
that it is still somewhat alphabetized, as I grouped together names in 
order and moved them up or down the list as I saw fit). I gave priority 
to important characters and difficult names, and the gods, seeming to 
fit both categories, are rather high on the list.


Aerich Temma
   from TLoCB

Agyar

Barlen
   from TLoCB

Devera
   from Yendi

e'Baritt, Karla
   from TLoCB

e'Drien
   from Jhereg

e'Lanya, Betraan
   from TLoCB

e'Lanya, Magra
   from TLoCB

e'Mondaar, Fentor
   from TLoCB

e'Terics, Ryunac
   from TLoCB

Hirtrinkneff
   from TLoCB

Jenoine
   from Jhereg

K?urana
   from TLoCB

Kanefthali
   from TLoCB

Kelchor
   from TLoCB

Khaavren
   from TLoCB

Moranth?
   from TLoCB

morganti
   from Jhereg

Morrolan
   from BoJPG

Noish-pa
   from Yendi

Ordwynac
   from TLoCB

Paarfi
   from TPG

Sethra Lavode
   from TLoCB

Tazendra
   from TLoCB

Teldra
   from TLoCB

Tri'nagore
   from TLoCB

Tsalmoth
   from BoJPG

Norska
   from various

Grita
   from TLoCB

Orlaan
   from TLoCB

Piro
   from TLoCB

R?aana
   from TLoCB

Kytraan
   from TLoCB

Daro
   from TLoCB

Arra
   from TLoCB

Fawnd
   from TLoCB

Clari
   from TLoCB

Mica
   from TLoCB

R?aanac
   from TLoCB

Berigner
   from TLoCB

Brawre
   from TLoCB

Elde (Island)
   from Teckla

Esteban
   from TLoCB

Fe Dalcalda, Corthina
   from TLoCB?

Fineol
   from TLoCB

Gardimma
   from TLoCB

Habil
   from TLoCB

Haro
   from TLoCB

Iatha
   from TLoCB

Ibronka
   from TLoCB

Izak
   from TLoCB

Jami
   from TLoCB
Lewchin
   from TLoCB

Malypon
   from TLoCB

Marel
   from TLoCB

Miska
   from TLoCB

Mora
   from TLoCB

Nacine
   from TLoCB

Necromancer (The)
   from TLoCB

Nyssa
   from TLoCB

Nywak
   from TLoCB

Oidwa
   from TLoCB

Ritsak
   from TLoCB

Ritt
   from TLoCB

Saakrew
   from TLoCB

Sennya
   from TLoCB

Shant
   from TLoCB

Taasra
   from TLoCB

Tevna
   from TLoCB

Tiawall (Prince)
   from TLoCB

Tresh
   from TLoCB

Trout
   from TLoCB

Tsanaali
   from TLoCB

Tsani
   from TLoCB

Tukko
   from TLoCB

Udaar
   from TLoCB

Wadre
   from TLoCB

Zivra
   from POTD

----------------

Jose
-- 
Jose Marquez            \  Cthulhu 2004
jhereg69 at hackwater.com   \  Why vote for
http://www.hackwater.com  \  the lesser evil?



From Gaertk at aol.com  Sat Sep 18 13:28:01 2004
From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 16:28:01 -0400
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person
Message-ID: <2654EEAC.2C66045D.00048EA6@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/17/2004 10:47:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Louann Miller <lqmiller at ev1.net> writes:

> I'll be glad to get a modest ball rolling. Steven Brust is 
> going to be the GOH at a con local to me, ConDFW, in 
> February. I'm looking forward to meeting him.

I've never been to a con before (I'm not a social person), but 
I'll likely attend this one since the GoH is one of my favorite
authors (and I rather like another guest) and, more importantly,
it's being held at a hotel I drive past every day anyway.

And Mr. Brust (and others attending) will be happy to know that
last week the locals voted to allow alcohol to be served in
restaurants (without all the Unicard nonsense).

If anyone is interested, I can post directions for the local
bookstores and libraries (there's a Half Price Books across the
street from the hotel, and the library I work for is a mile due
south).


--KG



From davids at Kithrup.COM  Sat Sep 18 17:03:58 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 17:03:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Pronunciation List
In-Reply-To: <414C7DF6.80803@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040918164511.10698B-100000@kithrup.com>

This is horribly late, of course.  Sorry about that.

A few more names and whatnot:

  Uttrik e'Lanya
     tPG

  Crionofenarr
     tPG

  Srahi
     tPG

  Guinn
     tPG

  Illista
     tPG

  Allistar
     tPG

  Noima
     tPG

  Lytra e'Tenith
     tPG

  Lanmarea
     tPG

  Seodra
     tPG

  Uilliv
     tPG

  Miera
     Yendi

  K'laiyer
     Yendi

  Fawnd
     FHYA

  Polinice, Polyi
     Athyra

  Savn
     Athyra

  Cwelli
     Athyra

  Olani
     Athyra


  Paener
     Athyra

  Maener
     Athyra


Oh, and a few places:

  Brachington, Bra-Moor
     FHYA

  Daavya
     FHYA

  Arylle
     FHYA

  Shaltre
     FHYA

  Greenaere
     Phoenix, FHYA

  Kee-Laiyer
     tPotD

  Holcomb
     FHYA









From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Sat Sep 18 22:20:10 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:20:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Differences between The Book of Jhereg and Jhereg
In-Reply-To: <1da.2adbd9fd.2e7cdc0a@aol.com>
References: <1da.2adbd9fd.2e7cdc0a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0409182205390.9354@flora04.slac.stanford.edu>



On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote:

> Jhereg (page 3)  "Nothing of any significance there, it
> was mostly Jhereg, or an occasional Teckla (each Dragaeran
> House bears the name of one of our native creatures), who
> came into our restaurant."
>
> The Book of Jhereg (page 4) "Nothing of any significance
> there, it was mostly Jhereg, or an occasional Teckla, who
> came into our restaurant."


Afaict the original version is perfectly consistent with Vlad's
conviction that his stories will never get back to him.  How else
could he be sure unless the interviewer was from an unreachable place?
And how could such a person know about the local flora and customs?
(Assuming that the conversation is psychic and alingual - a fluent
Dragaeran speaker would know about House names, but wouldn't be a very
trustworthy repository of dangerous info.  Hmm, still wondering
about whether it's possible to lie in a psychic conversation.)


From abcmm at att.net  Mon Sep 20 09:55:43 2004
From: abcmm at att.net (abcmm at att.net)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:55:43 +0000
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person
Message-ID: <092020041655.3882.414F0B8E000DC9AB00000F2A215876672003030C0D0E@att.net>

hmmmm......

Nope!  Still Curious....


-------------- Original message from Joshua Kronengold : -------------- 

> abcmm at att.net writes: 
> >I know if I ever talked to him I would like to find out more about 
> >why his more recent works have been told from the perspective of a 
> >historian. I have not heard or read much about that shift and it has 
> >always kind of peaked my interest. 
> 
> Er..they're a concious and deliberate pastiche. 
> As, in some ways, are the Vlad books. 
> 
> -- 
> Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org)) |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) 
> --^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' 
> /\\ your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ 
> /-\\\ your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax '---''(_/--' (_/-' 

From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com  Mon Sep 20 18:47:25 2004
From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 21:47:25 EDT
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person
Message-ID: <12a.4c13432c.2e80e22d@aol.com>

abcmm.att.net wrote on Fri, 17 Sep 2004 

>I know if I ever talked to him I would like to find out more 
>about why his more recent works have been told from the 
>perspective of a historian.  I have not heard or read much 
>about that shift and it has always kind of peaked my interest.

Joshua Kronengold wrote in response on Fri, 17 Sep 2004 

>Er..they're a concious and deliberate pastiche.  
>As, in some ways, are the Vlad books.

abcmm.att.net wrote in response on Mon, 20 Sep 2004 

>hmmmm......
>Nope!  Still Curious....

Hi,

I had to look up pastiche again. "a literary, artistic, musical,
or architectural work that imitates the style of previous work".
AOL dictionary.

See Steven Brust's explanation under The Phoenix Guards at
http://www.dreamcafe.com/books.html 

Phoenix Guards was written in 1991 and Five Hundred Years was 
written in 1994.

An additional topic you could discuss with Steven Brust is to
have him tell the story of how he got the honor of writing the
Foreword and Afterword to a translation of The Three Musketeers 
and why he likes that translation above others.

Joshua, I am wondering ("Some Reflect, Others Wonder"  The 
Phoenix Guards Chapter 18.) what ways you think the Vlad books 
imitate the style of a previous work?  Or is there another
definition of the word?  Or another meaning to your sentence
>As, in some ways, are the Vlad books.

Bye,

Linda G.

From mneme at io.com  Tue Sep 21 10:16:58 2004
From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:16:58 -0500
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person
In-Reply-To: <12a.4c13432c.2e80e22d@aol.com>
References: <12a.4c13432c.2e80e22d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <16720.25098.777159.922232@fnord.io.com>

FRIEDA2133 at aol.com writes:
>Joshua Kronengold wrote in response on Fri, 17 Sep 2004 
>>Er..they're a concious and deliberate pastiche.  
>>As, in some ways, are the Vlad books.
>I had to look up pastiche again. "a literary, artistic, musical,
>or architectural work that imitates the style of previous work".
>AOL dictionary.

Right.

>Phoenix Guards was written in 1991 and Five Hundred Years was 
>written in 1994.

IOW, there is no "recent/older" work split.  Just two different series
in the same universe.

>An additional topic you could discuss with Steven Brust is to
>have him tell the story of how he got the honor of writing the
>Foreword and Afterword to a translation of The Three Musketeers 
>and why he likes that translation above others.

I'd probably ask him about drumming and music, but maybe that's just
me.

>Joshua, I am wondering ("Some Reflect, Others Wonder"  The 
>Phoenix Guards Chapter 18.) what ways you think the Vlad books 
>imitate the style of a previous work?

Google for Taltos and Chandler.  Unlike the Guards books, they do not,
to my knowledge, use specific scenes, story elements, and themes from
a previous work, but they are very much a pastiche of Chandler
language-wise.

-- 
       Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org))  |\      _,,,--,,_  ,)
--^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick    /,`.-'`'   -,  ;-;;'  
  /\\  your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle     |,4-  ) )-,_ ) /\     
/-\\\  your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax            '---''(_/--' (_/-'     


From davids at Kithrup.COM  Tue Sep 21 14:18:58 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:18:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Ying xiong, aka Hero
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040921141125.9778A-100000@kithrup.com>

   http://imdb.com/title/tt0299977/

I haven't seen any commentary here on this yet.  I liked
the very cool visuals.  The soundtrack was good as well.

And I did find myself thinking that we were watching
several Dzurlords going up against a Dragon.  I suppose
it ought to be argued that assassination isn't Dzurlike,
but really, I think it can be counter-argued that the
assassinations attempts, as depicted, were performed in
the most heroic manner imaginable (it would be a spoiler
to explain, but those who have seen it probably know
what I am talking about), as opposed to the way a Jhereg
would do it, which would be as stealthily and as sneakily
as possible.

Of course, the multiple storylines made me think that the
*story* was being told by someone very like a Yendi, or
for that matter, our Historian of the House of the Hawk,
Paarfi of Roundwood.

Didn't like the moral tone of the ending, but I doubt most
of the Western world would.  Although it would probably have
a certain amount of resonance for Dragaerans, and make them
think of Kieron, except that while Kieron unified the Empire,
he wasn't also the first Emperor.



From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM  Tue Sep 21 14:37:34 2004
From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:37:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Ying xiong, aka Hero
Message-ID: <200409212137.i8LLbYRM002384@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com>

> I haven't seen any commentary here on this yet.  I liked
> the very cool visuals.  The soundtrack was good as well.

Good movie.  One of the prettiest I've seen.  And
the various ways they juxtaposed the action with the
setting and colors was striking.

> And I did find myself thinking that we were watching
> several Dzurlords going up against a Dragon.  I suppose
> it ought to be argued that assassination isn't Dzurlike,
> but really, I think it can be counter-argued that the
> assassinations attempts, as depicted, were performed in
> the most heroic manner imaginable (it would be a spoiler
> to explain, but those who have seen it probably know
> what I am talking about), as opposed to the way a Jhereg
> would do it, which would be as stealthily and as sneakily
> as possible.

I think they used a poor term.  It wasn't assassination,
it was regicide.  Now, how many Dzurlords have gone tromping
up Dzur Mountain, cleaving through untold dangers to reach
the Enchantress for the opportunity to be turned into a teckla?
I'd have to agree, the characters were rather Dzurlike. :)

> Didn't like the moral tone of the ending, but I doubt most
> of the Western world would.  

I did like the moral tone (which reminded me of Antoly<sp>
in the musical Chess), but I didn't much care for the way
the Emperor was carrying out his unification.  Nice idea,
lousy execution.

> Although it would probably have
> a certain amount of resonance for Dragaerans, and make them
> think of Kieron, except that while Kieron unified the Empire,
> he wasn't also the first Emperor.

Hmm... I wonder how the Teckla would feel about it....


Chris (Whose been in a "Tekla Have Rights, Too!" mood today:)



From davids at Kithrup.COM  Tue Sep 21 15:32:00 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:32:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Ying xiong, aka Hero
In-Reply-To: <200409212137.i8LLbYRM002384@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040921152445.13941A-100000@kithrup.com>

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote:

>
>I think they used a poor term.  It wasn't assassination,
>it was regicide.  Now, how many Dzurlords have gone tromping
>up Dzur Mountain, cleaving through untold dangers to reach
>the Enchantress for the opportunity to be turned into a teckla?
>I'd have to agree, the characters were rather Dzurlike. :)

Good point.  Regicide.

>> Didn't like the moral tone of the ending, but I doubt most
>> of the Western world would.  
>
>I did like the moral tone (which reminded me of Antoly<sp>
>in the musical Chess), but I didn't much care for the way
>the Emperor was carrying out his unification.  Nice idea,
>lousy execution.

But I thought that *was* the moral - since his intentions were
sufficiently "noble", implementing them was worth any number of
massacres.


As I've said elsewhere, my view of the King of Qin/Duke of Ch'in is
probably hopelessly tainted by having read Barry Hughart's /Bridge
of Birds/, where he is very much not noble nor nice..




From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Tue Sep 21 15:37:10 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:37:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Ying xiong, aka Hero
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040921152445.13941A-100000@kithrup.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040921152445.13941A-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0409211535010.17469@rdpc11.slac.stanford.edu>



On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, David Silberstein wrote:

>
> As I've said elsewhere, my view of the King of Qin/Duke of Ch'in is
> probably hopelessly tainted by having read Barry Hughart's /Bridge
> of Birds/, where he is very much not noble nor nice..

That should be "Barry Hughart's wonderful /Bridge of Birds/".


From tsarren at alyra.org  Tue Sep 21 16:49:09 2004
From: tsarren at alyra.org (Tsarren)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:49:09 -0500
Subject: Ying xiong, aka Hero
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040921152445.13941A-100000@kithrup.com>
References: <200409212137.i8LLbYRM002384@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040921152445.13941A-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <20040921234909.GX28365@Durandal>

On Tue, Sep 21, 2004 at 03:32:00PM -0700, David Silberstein wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote:
(snip)
> >I did like the moral tone (which reminded me of Antoly<sp>
> >in the musical Chess), but I didn't much care for the way
> >the Emperor was carrying out his unification.  Nice idea,
> >lousy execution.
> 
> But I thought that *was* the moral - since his intentions were
> sufficiently "noble", implementing them was worth any number of
> massacres.


I agree - it was a "we are going to make all of you stop skirmishing with
each other by *conquering* you and partially destroying your native culture
by forcing you to adopt another language" tone.  Unity over freedom.  Not
suprising, coming from China.

Kat


From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM  Tue Sep 21 16:58:29 2004
From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 16:58:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Ying xiong, aka Hero
Message-ID: <200409212358.i8LNwTRM014696@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com>

Kat wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 21, 2004 at 03:32:00PM -0700, David Silberstein wrote:
> > >I did like the moral tone (which reminded me of Antoly<sp>
> > >in the musical Chess), but I didn't much care for the way
> > >the Emperor was carrying out his unification.  Nice idea,
> > >lousy execution.
> > 
> > But I thought that *was* the moral - since his intentions were
> > sufficiently "noble", implementing them was worth any number of
> > massacres.
> 
> I agree - it was a "we are going to make all of you stop skirmishing with
> each other by *conquering* you and partially destroying your native culture
> by forcing you to adopt another language" tone.  Unity over freedom.  Not
> suprising, coming from China.

As I said, the Emperor's policies/actions were wrong, no matter
how "noble" his intentions.  But the main character's
decision was much more reasonable, the lovers' romantic, and
the idea that a country or land (and its people) is more important 
than any one person ideal and moral.

But then, I've always maintained a weird sense of morals,
given the standards here, China, or elsewhere.

(I'd go into more detail, perhaps, but it would give serious
spoilers, and I'd feel bad about that.) 

:-)
Chris



From howard at brazee.net  Wed Sep 22 04:51:42 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 05:51:42 -0600
Subject: Ying xiong, aka Hero
In-Reply-To: <200409212358.i8LNwTRM014696@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com>
Message-ID: <000001c4a09a$87ac4bc0$b07ba8c0@Dad133>

I haven't seen this yet.   How does the setting compare with _The Emperor
and the Assassin_?





From holden at oddjob.uchicago.edu  Wed Sep 22 15:48:43 2004
From: holden at oddjob.uchicago.edu (Bradford Holden)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:48:43 -0500
Subject: Ying xiong, aka Hero
Message-ID: <20040922174843.C4843@oddjob.uchicago.edu>

> From: Philip Hart <philiph at slac.stanford.edu>
> 
> That should be "Barry Hughart's wonderful /Bridge of Birds/".

Yes.  Run, do not walk, to your nearest used bookstore or 
library to find this book and read it.  Unfortunately, I can
make no statement on the sequels.

-- 
Bradford Holden


From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Wed Sep 22 17:27:00 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:27:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Ying xiong, aka Hero
In-Reply-To: <20040922174843.C4843@oddjob.uchicago.edu>
References: <20040922174843.C4843@oddjob.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0409221703210.21402@rdpc11.slac.stanford.edu>



On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Bradford Holden wrote:

> > From: Philip Hart <philiph at slac.stanford.edu>
> >
> > That should be "Barry Hughart's wonderful /Bridge of Birds/".
>
> Yes.  Run, do not walk, to your nearest used bookstore or
> library to find this book and read it.  Unfortunately, I can
> make no statement on the sequels.

The trilogy is available in an omnibus edition, but I think most readers
will be fine with just _BoB_.  The sequels are also very well written from
a prose point of view, the main characters' interactions are still sharp
and amusing, and Hughart continues to wear his (apparently great)
erudition lightly.  However, the fever-pitch creativity of _BoB_ is
lacking, and the surprise, and the secondary characters are much less
Dickensian.


A contrast with another favorite book, _The Elfin Ship_ by James Blaylock:
the two sequels are also reworkings of the primary material but the whole
remains fresh.  Perhaps the difference has something to do the contrariety
between surprise and comfort: _BoB_ shows us a world we didn't know while
_TES_ shows us the world we know made more sensuous (not sensual!).


From Gaertk at aol.com  Wed Sep 22 18:02:49 2004
From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 21:02:49 -0400
Subject: Ying xiong, aka Hero
Message-ID: <2ED2C3D0.0CA81CB1.00048EA6@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/22/2004 6:48:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bradford Holden <holden at oddjob.uchicago.edu> writes:

>> From: Philip Hart <philiph at slac.stanford.edu>
>> 
>> That should be "Barry Hughart's wonderful /Bridge of Birds/".
>
>Yes.  Run, do not walk, to your nearest used bookstore or 
>library to find this book and read it.  Unfortunately, I can
>make no statement on the sequels.

I have seen new massmarket editions of it in local stores fairly
recently.  There's also an omnibus, but that may be even harder
to find due to smaller print runs and the publisher no longer
being in business.


--KG



From ballistica at cox.net  Tue Sep 21 14:25:09 2004
From: ballistica at cox.net (Donna)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:25:09 -0700
Subject: Ying xiong, aka Hero
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040921141125.9778A-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <000701c4a021$78ce56d0$6401a8c0@jupiter>

From: "David Silberstein said:

> I haven't seen any commentary here on this yet.  I liked
> the very cool visuals.  The soundtrack was good as well.
>
> And I did find myself thinking that we were watching
> several Dzurlords going up against a Dragon.

I didn't even think of those houses.  I was thinking that Nameless was
rather like Aerich, so cool and collected.  I think he blinked twice in the
whole film, and the first time seemed the equivalent of one of Aerich's tiny
frowns: a major reaction.

I'll definitely give you points for the Dragon, though.

I loved the film myself - it was gorgeously shot.

Donna



From lazarus33pjf at cox.net  Tue Sep 21 21:46:09 2004
From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:46:09 -0700
Subject: Ying xiong, aka Hero
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040921141125.9778A-100000@kithrup.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040921141125.9778A-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <1s02l0dpile07iof73edppsuhvk1ahchhb@4ax.com>

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:18:58 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>   http://imdb.com/title/tt0299977/
>
>I haven't seen any commentary here on this yet.  I liked
>the very cool visuals.  The soundtrack was good as well.
>
>And I did find myself thinking that we were watching
>several Dzurlords going up against a Dragon.  I suppose
>it ought to be argued that assassination isn't Dzurlike,
>but really, I think it can be counter-argued that the
>assassinations attempts, as depicted, were performed in
>the most heroic manner imaginable (it would be a spoiler
>to explain, but those who have seen it probably know
>what I am talking about), as opposed to the way a Jhereg
>would do it, which would be as stealthily and as sneakily
>as possible.
>
>Of course, the multiple storylines made me think that the
>*story* was being told by someone very like a Yendi, or
>for that matter, our Historian of the House of the Hawk,
>Paarfi of Roundwood.
>
>Didn't like the moral tone of the ending, but I doubt most
>of the Western world would.  Although it would probably have
>a certain amount of resonance for Dragaerans, and make them
>think of Kieron, except that while Kieron unified the Empire,
>he wasn't also the first Emperor.

I thought it was the most gorgeous film I've seen in, well, I can't
remember another one that measures up, to be honest.

I'll be getting the DVD.  I want to see it several more times, because
I'm positive there are multiple layers of symbolism (colours, etc.)
that I just didn't get.

My wife's father is a history teacher specialising in Asia; we're
trying to convince him to take a break from selling his house to go
see it and explain the depth of it to us.


From mark_englehart at cox.net  Tue Sep 21 20:22:15 2004
From: mark_englehart at cox.net (Mark Englehart)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:22:15 -0700
Subject: Ying xiong, aka Hero
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040921141125.9778A-100000@kithrup.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040921141125.9778A-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20040921192916.0037fe88@pop.west.cox.net>


>
>And I did find myself thinking that we were watching
>several Dzurlords going up against a Dragon. (*snip*)
>
>Of course, the multiple storylines made me think that the
>*story* was being told by someone very like a Yendi, or
>for that matter, our Historian of the House of the Hawk,
>Paarfi of Roundwood.

I agree that Broken Sword and Flying Snow were definitely Dzurlords, but 
not Nameless.  A Dzurlord wouldn't be able to stand taking a crafty way 
into the castle when there was a perfectly good, nigh-invincible army to 
fight your way through.

So what house is Nameless from?  Yendi? He's certainly clever enough for 
it, but no Yendi would be self-sacrificing enough to give up his plot and 
his life (in that order) for a "greater good".  Hawk?  Maybe; he has great 
powers of observation and story telling ability, and we've never met a Hawk 
warrior so we don't know how one would fight.  I think an argument could be 
made for Lyorn, pointing to Aerich's assumption of a different identity and 
patience in plotting his revenge while keeping to tradition.  Of course, I 
have a hard time seeing a Lyorn tell a tale so craftily.

So, Nameless is clever enough to craft a good story and think on his feet 
when his plan starts to unravel, has a care for honor and tradition and 
willing to sacrifice himself for an ideal, is good with a sword, but not 
foolhardy enough to take on an army single-handed and has strong powers of 
observation.  I think there's only one choice:  Tiassa


>Didn't like the moral tone of the ending, but I doubt most
>of the Western world would.  .

Actually I think you could draw parallels between the moral tone and the 
neocon agenda: forcing a political ideal on other peoples and choosing 
security over freedom, which a lot of Americans appear to go for.

Mark 




From davids at Kithrup.COM  Wed Sep 22 18:23:34 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:23:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Ying xiong, aka Hero
In-Reply-To: <1s02l0dpile07iof73edppsuhvk1ahchhb@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040922182036.4099B-100000@kithrup.com>

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004, lazarus wrote:

>On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:18:58 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:
>
>>   http://imdb.com/title/tt0299977/

>
>I'll be getting the DVD.  I want to see it several more times,
>because I'm positive there are multiple layers of symbolism
>(colours, etc.)  that I just didn't get.
>
>My wife's father is a history teacher specialising in Asia; we're
>trying to convince him to take a break from selling his house to
>go see it and explain the depth of it to us.
>

Well, if you do convince him, please report if he notices anything
particularly interesting.

I was wondering if there was anything in the movie that subverted
the overt meaning of the ending.  For example, I note that those
who opposed the king were named "Sky" and "Moon" and "Broken
Sword."   "Sky" might map to "Heaven", "Moon" might map to the Moon
Goddess, but I am not sure what to make of "Broken Sword".  I wish
I knew more about Chinese symbolism to be able to analyze that.
Also, there might be meanings to the colors which are
less-than-obvious.




From bonham15 at cox.net  Tue Sep 21 14:20:36 2004
From: bonham15 at cox.net (bonham15)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 16:20:36 -0500
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person
References: <12a.4c13432c.2e80e22d@aol.com> <16720.25098.777159.922232@fnord.io.com>
Message-ID: <002501c4a020$d691e620$6501a8c0@user79dn2jmjai>


>
> Google for Taltos and Chandler.  Unlike the Guards books, they do not,
> to my knowledge, use specific scenes, story elements, and themes from
> a previous work, but they are very much a pastiche of Chandler
> language-wise.
>
 vlad's life so far even with its ups and downs has worked out better than 
most of chandler's main characters lives... but still a line like 'she had a 
walk that would make a bishop kick in a stain glass window" (or very close 
to it), from chandler makes him more than worth the read...

andy 



From rone at ennui.org  Wed Sep 22 18:30:21 2004
From: rone at ennui.org (rone)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:30:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20040917094510.019858d0@mail.ev1.net>
Message-ID: <20040923013021.A03DB26D25@boredom.ennui.org>

Louann Miller writes:
  I'll be glad to get a modest ball rolling. Steven Brust is going to be the 
  GOH at a con local to me, ConDFW, in February. I'm looking forward to 
  meeting him.  Any tips?

Bring a bottle of Tullamore Dew.  You're going to need it.  
  
rone
-- 
Here comes the tired statesman,
Heavy-lidded, bearded, nowhere left to land
He makes the jigsaw fit
With a hammer in his hand


From mam at theworld.com  Wed Sep 22 19:09:03 2004
From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 22:09:03 -0400
Subject: Pararectal - A real word?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040917172338.27362A-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0409222206460.1055309-100000@shell01-g>

David Silberstein says

	>>>

I've sort of given up hope on "ambiguifies", which caused more of a
ruckus, and even inspired doggerel, but seems to have not had legs.

 <<<<<


Try "ambiguate". Linguists have been using "disambiguate" for a long
time. It earns my vote as one of the ugliest words I know, but it is
absolutely too useful (at least in my professional language) to do
without.


-- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian,
   Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody
   a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel
   [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]




From mam at theworld.com  Wed Sep 22 20:19:47 2004
From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 23:19:47 -0400
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0409222316040.1040810-100000@shell01-g>

This bounced with the header that I have attached below. The next mail I
sent to the list wenth through fine.



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 21:57:37 -0400
From: Mark A Mandel <mam at theworld.com>
To: abcmm at att.net
Cc: Mike Flanigan <Thomarus at carolina.rr.com>, dragaera at dragaera.info
Subject: Re: Okay, new topic - Brust in person

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 abcmm at att.net wrote:

#As I understand.  Here are some possible topics...  History (Civil War
#in particular) and Poker.
#
#I know if I ever talked to him I would like to find out more about why
#his more recent works have been told from the perspective of a
#historian.  I have not heard or read much about that shift and it has
#always kind of peaked my interest.

(That's "piqued", by the way.)

The Paarfi romances are a pastiche of Dumas, volume for volume:
	The Phoenix Guards	:	The Three Musketeers
	Five Hundred Years After	:	20 Years After

OK, who remembers all the titles that the Three Volumes of The Viscount
of Adrilankha, and the whole triple-decker itself, correspond to?

-- Mark A. Mandel
   http://cracksandshards.com
   a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website
   [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]




The original message was received at Wed, 22 Sep 2004 22:07:38 -0400
>from root at shell01.theworld.com [192.74.137.71]

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
<dragaera at dragaera.info>

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
550 5.1.2 <dragaera at dragaera.info>... Host unknown (Name server:
mail.dd-b.net.: no data known)

    [ Part 2: "Delivery Status" ]

Reporting-MTA: dns; TheWorld.com
Arrival-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 22:07:38 -0400

Final-Recipient: RFC822; dragaera at dragaera.info
Action: failed
Status: 5.1.2
Remote-MTA: DNS; mail.dd-b.net
Last-Attempt-Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 22:38:14 -0400




From dd-b at dd-b.net  Wed Sep 22 21:39:00 2004
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 23:39:00 -0500
Subject: Pronunciation guide update
Message-ID: <m26565wqe3.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>

No, not on the site yet.  But we recorded sound files for a *bunch* of
new words today, and I've got the files broken into individual word
bits.  So probably this week yet.

*And* I've got a photo of Steven speaking into a mysterious silver
box, too. 
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From mam at theworld.com  Wed Sep 22 20:28:15 2004
From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 23:28:15 -0400
Subject: Rocza's Song
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0409222323130.1061044-100000@shell01-g>

Rocza's Song
Mark A. Mandel Copr. 2004

   I fly across the jungle on silent leather wings
   To seek my prey of lizards, rats, and other, smaller things.
      But I much prefer the leavings of some greater hunter's kill,
      To feast upon the riches left when she has had her fill.
   Well-fed, she is no threat to me, and me she does not fear,
   And while she takes her rest, no other predator comes near.
      I hunt and scavenge, eat and sleep; at times I rest or play,
      And someday I will take a mate, and I will die someday.

   Nearby I hear a struggle, and cries and panting breath.
   The battle is unequal, and soon will come a death.
      The scent upon the breeze  is strange, but as I circle in
      I hear a voice within my mind that calls to me as kin.
   "Long life I offer and red meat; I ask of you your aid--
   For now, to save my life!" He sinks; I feel the contact fade.
      I fly in the attacker's face, he turns to swing at me;
      The other strikes him dead, then falls. I answer: "I agree."

   I stay with the Provider now, and him who is my mate.
   Beyond the jungle that I knew, the world is strange and great.
      I help him every way I can, he always feeds me well,
      Although our minds spoke only on that day he cast his spell.
   He knows my mate as "Loiosh", and "Rocza" he calls me,
   And Loiosh tells me what he wants and tells him what I see.
      The years have touched me lightly, though they do not pass me
by...
      I think no jhereg in the world more fortunate than I.


Rocza: RAW-tsah
Loiosh: LOY-ohsh
jhereg: ZHEH-reg (according to meter of the spell)

The spell (_Jhereg_, Ace edition, sixth printing, February 1987, pages
225-226, copyright 1983 by Stephen K. Z. Brust; typo corrected):

Come to me, blood of my House. Join me, hunt with me, find me.

Let the winds of Jungle's night
Stay the hunter in her flight.
Evening's breath to witch's mind
Let our fates be intertwined.
Jhereg! Do not pass me by!
Show me where thy soul doth lie!





From skzb at dreamcafe.com  Wed Sep 22 18:24:57 2004
From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:24:57 -0700
Subject: Rocza's Song
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0409222323130.1061044-100000@shell01-g>
References: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0409222323130.1061044-100000@shell01-g>
Message-ID: <1095902697.2373.21.camel@localhost>

On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 20:28, Mark A Mandel wrote:
> Rocza's Song
> Mark A. Mandel Copr. 2004
 
Wow.




From jhereg69 at earthlink.net  Thu Sep 23 04:09:44 2004
From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 07:09:44 -0400
Subject: Pronunciation guide update
In-Reply-To: <m26565wqe3.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>
References: <m26565wqe3.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>
Message-ID: <4152AEF8.7040704@earthlink.net>

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> No, not on the site yet.  But we recorded sound files for a *bunch* of
> new words today, and I've got the files broken into individual word
> bits.  So probably this week yet.
> 
> *And* I've got a photo of Steven speaking into a mysterious silver
> box, too. 

*Taps finger tips together*

Excellent.

Jose
-- 
Jose Marquez            \  Cthulhu 2004
jhereg69 at hackwater.com   \  Why vote for
http://www.hackwater.com  \  the lesser evil?



From jhereg69 at earthlink.net  Thu Sep 23 04:14:10 2004
From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 07:14:10 -0400
Subject: Rocza's Song
In-Reply-To: <1095902697.2373.21.camel@localhost>
References: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0409222323130.1061044-100000@shell01-g> <1095902697.2373.21.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <4152B002.6090503@earthlink.net>

Steve Brust wrote:
> On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 20:28, Mark A Mandel wrote:
> 
>>Rocza's Song
>>Mark A. Mandel Copr. 2004
> 
>  
> Wow.

I second that. Very impressive. Mark is not just the Lord of the Filk.

Jose
-- 
Jose Marquez            \  Cthulhu 2004
jhereg69 at hackwater.com   \  Why vote for
http://www.hackwater.com  \  the lesser evil?




From scs at di.org  Thu Sep 23 05:12:42 2004
From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 08:12:42 -0400
Subject: Pararectal - A real word?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0409222206460.1055309-100000@shell01-g>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040917172338.27362A-100000@kithrup.com> <Pine.SGI.4.40.0409222206460.1055309-100000@shell01-g>
Message-ID: <20040923121242.GD24025@lokkur.dexter.mi.us>

On Wed, Sep 22, 2004 at 10:09:03PM -0400, Mark A Mandel wrote:

> . . .  Linguists have been using "disambiguate" for a long
> time. It earns my vote as one of the ugliest words I know, but it is
> absolutely too useful (at least in my professional language) to do
> without.

It also has some usage in the relational calculus, the theory that
underlies relational databases.
-- 
   "...too many people want things to be simple when they are not and
cannot be.  Encouraging that desire is seductive and rewarding, but also
dangerous."      Iain M. Banks, 'Against a Dark Background', pp 299


From scs at di.org  Thu Sep 23 05:19:26 2004
From: scs at di.org (Steve Simmons)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 08:19:26 -0400
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person
In-Reply-To: <20040923013021.A03DB26D25@boredom.ennui.org>
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20040917094510.019858d0@mail.ev1.net> <20040923013021.A03DB26D25@boredom.ennui.org>
Message-ID: <20040923121926.GF24025@lokkur.dexter.mi.us>

On Wed, Sep 22, 2004 at 06:30:21PM -0700, rone wrote:

> Louann Miller writes:

>   I'll be glad to get a modest ball rolling. Steven Brust is going to be the 
>   GOH at a con local to me, ConDFW, in February. I'm looking forward to 
>   meeting him.  Any tips?
> 
> Bring a bottle of Tullamore Dew.  You're going to need it.  

*blink*  And to think I've got a crock of it in my basement, intended
for Conclave.  Too bad for him he won't be there.  :-)
-- 
   "...too many people want things to be simple when they are not and
cannot be.  Encouraging that desire is seductive and rewarding, but also
dangerous."      Iain M. Banks, 'Against a Dark Background', pp 299


From carpovita at earthlink.net  Thu Sep 23 20:07:05 2004
From: carpovita at earthlink.net (Rion Bergquist)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 21:07:05 -0600
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person
References: <5.2.1.1.0.20040917094510.019858d0@mail.ev1.net> <20040923013021.A03DB26D25@boredom.ennui.org> <20040923121926.GF24025@lokkur.dexter.mi.us>
Message-ID: <01a701c4a1e3$92a5bd00$0400a8c0@attbi.com>

ummm  no,
Tully is Robert Asprin's bribe, er rather drink of choice.
I had Steve and Robert at my show this past May and I don't recall Steve
drinking any of the Tully.
Side note to other event directors...
Steve and Robert at the same show is either not as much fun as one would
think, or freaking hilarious.
It all depends on your point of view.
Our favorite part of their...  interaction, was the toast off they had at
the benefit banquet.

Rion
Opus Fantasy Arts Festival

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Simmons" <scs at di.org>
To: "rone" <rone at ennui.org>
Cc: "SKZB List" <dragaera at dragaera.info>
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: Okay, new topic - Brust in person


> On Wed, Sep 22, 2004 at 06:30:21PM -0700, rone wrote:
>
> > Louann Miller writes:
>
> >   I'll be glad to get a modest ball rolling. Steven Brust is going to be
the
> >   GOH at a con local to me, ConDFW, in February. I'm looking forward to
> >   meeting him.  Any tips?
> >
> > Bring a bottle of Tullamore Dew.  You're going to need it.
>
> *blink*  And to think I've got a crock of it in my basement, intended
> for Conclave.  Too bad for him he won't be there.  :-)
> --
>    "...too many people want things to be simple when they are not and
> cannot be.  Encouraging that desire is seductive and rewarding, but also
> dangerous."      Iain M. Banks, 'Against a Dark Background', pp 299



From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM  Thu Sep 23 10:08:02 2004
From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 10:08:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person 
Message-ID: <200409231708.i8NH82RM014012@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com>

Rion wrote:
> ummm  no,
> Tully is Robert Asprin's bribe, er rather drink of choice.
> I had Steve and Robert at my show this past May and I don't recall Steve
> drinking any of the Tully.

Ah, my guess would be Steve chose something else to
drink that night, didn't wish to steal Robert's Tully,
or was sly and ninja about drinking it when you weren't
watching.  The last time I saw him, Steve still enjoyed
a nice glass of Tullamore Dew.  (Unless he found
something better, in which case he better share the info!)

Hmm... I wonder if I still have some at home for
tonight.  All this Tully-talk has made me thirsty. <grin>

:0
Chris

"The morning cup of coffee has an exhilaration
about it which the cheering influence of the
afternoon or evening cup of tea cannot be expected 
to reproduce."
 ~ Oliver Wedell Holmes, Sr. - "Over the Teacups" (1891)



From alexx at panix.com  Thu Sep 23 10:32:36 2004
From: alexx at panix.com (Alexx Kay)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 13:32:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Ying xiong, aka Hero
In-Reply-To: <20040922174843.C4843@oddjob.uchicago.edu> from "Bradford Holden" at Sep 22, 2004 05:48:43 PM
Message-ID: <200409231732.i8NHWa824800@panix1.panix.com>

> 
> > From: Philip Hart <philiph at slac.stanford.edu>
> > 
> > That should be "Barry Hughart's wonderful /Bridge of Birds/".
> 
> Yes.  Run, do not walk, to your nearest used bookstore or 
> library to find this book and read it.  Unfortunately, I can
> make no statement on the sequels.

I can.  While they were moderately enjoyable, I could have gotten a similar
result by re-reading the first book twice more, at least as far as plot
goes.  Well, the "surprise twist" in the third book did somewhat surprise
me, but only because I didn't think Hughart would use *exactly* the same
trick *again*...

Alexx


Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers.
alexx at carolingiaSPAMBL@CK.org                http://www.panix.com/~alexx
"Our strength is as the strength of ten, because there are ten of us."
               -- THE NET BOOK OF RPG ONE-LINERS


From davids at Kithrup.COM  Thu Sep 23 10:41:33 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 10:41:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person 
In-Reply-To: <200409231708.i8NH82RM014012@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040923102304.25542A-100000@kithrup.com>

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Chris Olson - SunPS wrote:

>
>Ah, my guess would be Steve chose something else to
>drink that night, didn't wish to steal Robert's Tully,
>or was sly and ninja about drinking it when you weren't
>watching.  The last time I saw him, Steve still enjoyed
>a nice glass of Tullamore Dew.  (Unless he found
>something better, in which case he better share the info!)
>
>Hmm... I wonder if I still have some at home for
>tonight.  All this Tully-talk has made me thirsty. <grin>

Spaekin o' tirst, I chust raicently heard the poem o' "The SS
Politician", on the "Thistle and Shamrock" radio programme.
Apparantly based on a true happening.

   http://www.rampantscotland.com/poetry/blpoems_politician.htm

   http://www.searoom.com/veleda/politician.htm

   "Och, times are hard in Barra"
   You'd hear the Badochs cry.
   "No food to feed a sparra!
   And effery bottle dry."

   Old men, once fresh and frisky,
   So full of ploy and play,
   Dropped dead for want of whisky,
   The blessed Uisque Bae. 

[...]

   The great ship "Politician"
   Her hold stocked high with grog,
   Steamed proudly past the island,
   And foundered in the fog.

   A case was rent asunder,
   Twelve bottles came to grief,
   When the Barra surf - like thunder -
   Came pounding on the reef. 


And like that.


>"The morning cup of coffee has an exhilaration
>about it which the cheering influence of the
>afternoon or evening cup of tea cannot be expected 
>to reproduce."
> ~ Oliver Wedell Holmes, Sr. - "Over the Teacups" (1891)
             ^

Surely you mean Oliver *Wendell* Holmes?



From books at bofh.com  Thu Sep 23 11:25:02 2004
From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:25:02 -0700
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person
Message-ID: <20040923182502.GA30107@bofh.com>

> Spaekin o' tirst, I chust raicently heard the poem o' "The SS
> Politician", on the "Thistle and Shamrock" radio programme.
> Apparantly based on a true happening.
> 
>    http://www.rampantscotland.com/poetry/blpoems_politician.htm
> 
>    http://www.searoom.com/veleda/politician.htm
> 
>    "Och, times are hard in Barra"

[*snip*]

It is a true story, they even made a movie about it.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0042040/

"Whiskey Galore"

To continue the drinking references:

Barra is the ancestral (and current seat) for the Clan MacNeil,
and the castle is Kisimul Castle [1].  The Clan MacNeil recently
leased it to Historic Scotland (for preservation and restoration)
for 1000 years.  The annual lease cost?  1 pound and a bottle of whisky.
(Scotch to those of us on the left side of the pond)  :)

-Jot

[1] The castle is an interesting place. It sits on an island
in the middle of the bay.  A freak of geology resulted in it
having a _fresh_ water spring, and as a result of the tides, 
even toilets that flush twice a day.  Before heavy artillery
it would have been very difficult to seige a force out of it.

http://www.castles.org/Chatelaine/KISIMUL.HTM
-- 
Jot Powers 	<books at bofh.com> 		http://www.bofh.com/books/
"I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" 
	-Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan


From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Thu Sep 23 11:47:59 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:47:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person
In-Reply-To: <20040923182502.GA30107@bofh.com>
References: <20040923182502.GA30107@bofh.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0409231146260.25484@rdpc11.slac.stanford.edu>


On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Jot Powers wrote:

> as a result of the tides, even toilets that flush twice a day.  Before
> heavy artillery it would have been very difficult to seige a force out
> of it.

Soldiers fought like demons to defend their flush toilets?


From davids at Kithrup.COM  Thu Sep 23 11:59:16 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:59:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Pararectal - A real word?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0409222206460.1055309-100000@shell01-g>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040923111858.25542B-100000@kithrup.com>

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Mark A Mandel wrote:

>David Silberstein says
>
>	>>>
>
>I've sort of given up hope on "ambiguifies", which caused more of a
>ruckus, and even inspired doggerel, but seems to have not had legs.
>
> <<<<<
>
>
>Try "ambiguate". Linguists have been using "disambiguate" for a long
>time. It earns my vote as one of the ugliest words I know, but it is
>absolutely too useful (at least in my professional language) to do
>without.
>

Yes, yes.  Of course.  But while "ambiguate" is the standard, I
used "ambiguifies" because I was in the same word-manglingly-amused
mood that I was when I later suggested "pararectal ideation".

Hmm.  Google suggests that while I am the only one to use the
third person singular present indicative, I am not the first to use
that particular verb.  Interestingly, Norman Spinrad appears
to have put "ambiguify" into /The Void Captain's Tale/.

As a linguist, I am sure that you are deeply familiar with the
phenomenon of mangling words in order to create jargon or nonce
words, or purely for amusement value.



From books at bofh.com  Thu Sep 23 12:20:23 2004
From: books at bofh.com (Jot Powers)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 12:20:23 -0700
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0409231146260.25484@rdpc11.slac.stanford.edu>
References: <20040923182502.GA30107@bofh.com> <Pine.LNX.4.58.0409231146260.25484@rdpc11.slac.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <20040923192023.GA30481@bofh.com>

On Thu, Sep 23, 2004 at 11:47:59AM -0700, Philip Hart wrote:
> > as a result of the tides, even toilets that flush twice a day.  Before
> > heavy artillery it would have been very difficult to seige a force out
> > of it.
> 
> Soldiers fought like demons to defend their flush toilets?

How many chamber pots have you had to empty?  :)

-Jot
-- 
Jot Powers 	<books at bofh.com> 		http://www.bofh.com/books/
"I'm upping my standards, so up yours!" 
	-Pat Paulsen (1927-1997), Presidential Campaign Slogan


From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Thu Sep 23 12:42:15 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 12:42:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Pararectal - A real word?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040923111858.25542B-100000@kithrup.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040923111858.25542B-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0409231239430.25722@rdpc11.slac.stanford.edu>



On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, David Silberstein wrote:

> that particular verb.  Interestingly, Norman Spinrad appears
> to have put "ambiguify" into /The Void Captain's Tale/.

That's "Norman Spinrad's excellent /The Void Captain's Tale/."
Haven't read anything else by him (except maybe a review of
_The Book of The New Sun_ which greatly annoyed me at the time
but since strikes me as useful) - any recommendations?




From davids at Kithrup.COM  Thu Sep 23 14:17:51 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:17:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Quote on judgement
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040923140526.27615A-100000@kithrup.com>


Issola, pg 243:

   A famous Iorich once said that the difficult part of being a
   Justicer was sounding one hundred percent when you felt
   fifty-one percent.

This quote sounds very familiar to me.  For some reason, I thought
it might be from Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr, but Google does not
appear to support this.  And so many of the words are sufficiently
common that Google is not helping me track it down.  Or perhaps I
am not thinking of something.

Actually, in thinking about it, it might not have been a judge who
said it.  For some reason I am thinking it was said by an umpire,
or other sport referee.

Anyway.  Anyone know of it?



From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM  Thu Sep 23 14:24:51 2004
From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:24:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Quote on judgement 
Message-ID: <200409232124.i8NLOpRM024411@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com>

David Silberstein wrote:
> Issola, pg 243:
> 
>    A famous Iorich once said that the difficult part of being a
>    Justicer was sounding one hundred percent when you felt
>    fifty-one percent.
> 
> This quote sounds very familiar to me.  For some reason, I thought
> it might be from Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr, but Google does not
> appear to support this.  And so many of the words are sufficiently
> common that Google is not helping me track it down.  Or perhaps I
> am not thinking of something.
> 
> Actually, in thinking about it, it might not have been a judge who
> said it.  For some reason I am thinking it was said by an umpire,
> or other sport referee.
> 
> Anyway.  Anyone know of it?

It refers to lawyers and their clients.
Arguing a case, they need to sound one hundred percent
certain, even if they're not really sure at all.

Well, that's good lawyers, I guess.  There are always those
who fall asleep in court.

:)
Chris (who sounds 100%

"You will be required to do wrong no matter where you go. 
It is the basic condition of life, to be required to 
violate your own identity. At some time, every creature 
which lives must do so. It is the ultimate shadow, 
the defeat of creation; this is the curse at work, 
the curse that feeds on all life. Everywhere in the universe."

- "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" - Philip K. Dick
 about this answer, eh?;)




From zarkon at illrepute.org  Thu Sep 23 14:25:21 2004
From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:25:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Pararectal - A real word?
In-Reply-To: <20040923121242.GD24025@lokkur.dexter.mi.us>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040917172338.27362A-100000@kithrup.com> <Pine.SGI.4.40.0409222206460.1055309-100000@shell01-g> <20040923121242.GD24025@lokkur.dexter.mi.us>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0409231721470.11879@ueno.bdi.com>

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Steve Simmons wrote:

@> > . . .  Linguists have been using "disambiguate" for a long
@> > time. It earns my vote as one of the ugliest words I know, but it is
@> > absolutely too useful (at least in my professional language) to do
@> > without.
@>
@> It also has some usage in the relational calculus, the theory that
@> underlies relational databases.

Plus in game development, for IF text parsers.



  > GET TOWEL

  Which towel, the jewel-encrusted towel or the fluffy towel?

  > JEWEL-ENCRUSTED

  Taken.

  Wait, now you're dead. Haw-haw!

  > QUIT


From akomins at midway.uchicago.edu  Thu Sep 23 15:03:53 2004
From: akomins at midway.uchicago.edu (Arin Komins)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:03:53 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Pararectal - A real word?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0409231239430.25722@rdpc11.slac.stanford.edu>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040923111858.25542B-100000@kithrup.com> <Pine.LNX.4.58.0409231239430.25722@rdpc11.slac.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0409231702480.4868@unecre.hpuvpntb.rqh>

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Philip Hart wrote:

:Subject: Re: Pararectal - A real word?
:
:On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, David Silberstein wrote:
:
:> that particular verb.  Interestingly, Norman Spinrad appears
:> to have put "ambiguify" into /The Void Captain's Tale/.
:
:That's "Norman Spinrad's excellent /The Void Captain's Tale/."
:Haven't read anything else by him (except maybe a review of
:_The Book of The New Sun_ which greatly annoyed me at the time
:but since strikes me as useful) - any recommendations?

The semi/demi sequel to VCT is good (/Child of Fortune/), and /Bug Jack
Barron/ was a seminal work, even if (imho) it has aged somewhat poorly.

thanks,

Arin
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------
Arin Komins			       	      akomins at uchicago.edu
Manager of Web Systems Architecture
University of Chicago/NSIT/ENSS			tel: (773)834-4087
1155 E. 60th St. #418	 Chicago, IL 60637	fax: (773)702-0559
------------------------------------------------------------------


From lazarus33pjf at cox.net  Thu Sep 23 15:34:12 2004
From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:34:12 -0700
Subject: Quote on judgement
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040923140526.27615A-100000@kithrup.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040923140526.27615A-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <soj6l0d2trc5jpa3dci69j40lmkdthed8n@4ax.com>

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 14:17:51 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>
>Issola, pg 243:
>
>   A famous Iorich once said that the difficult part of being a
>   Justicer was sounding one hundred percent when you felt
>   fifty-one percent.
>
>This quote sounds very familiar to me.  For some reason, I thought
>it might be from Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr, but Google does not
>appear to support this.  And so many of the words are sufficiently
>common that Google is not helping me track it down.  Or perhaps I
>am not thinking of something.
>
>Actually, in thinking about it, it might not have been a judge who
>said it.  For some reason I am thinking it was said by an umpire,
>or other sport referee.
>
>Anyway.  Anyone know of it?

I dunno if it's original to him (I doubt it for some reason), but I do
recall one of the characters in Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land
saying something very similar.  The tall blonde woman, I believe.  I'm
away from my collection right now, so can't explicate further.


From rct9911 at comcast.net  Thu Sep 23 15:47:59 2004
From: rct9911 at comcast.net (Rebecca)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:47:59 -0500
Subject: Rocza's Song
References: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0409222323130.1061044-100000@shell01-g>
Message-ID: <014901c4a1bf$60a07350$6601a8c0@BOB>





> Rocza's Song
> Mark A. Mandel Copr. 2004
> 
>    I fly across the jungle on silent leather wings
>    To seek my prey of lizards, rats, and other, smaller things.
>       But I much prefer the leavings of some greater hunter's kill,
>       To feast upon the riches left when she has had her fill.
>    Well-fed, she is no threat to me, and me she does not fear,
>    And while she takes her rest, no other predator comes near.
>       I hunt and scavenge, eat and sleep; at times I rest or play,
>       And someday I will take a mate, and I will die someday.
> 
>    Nearby I hear a struggle, and cries and panting breath.
>    The battle is unequal, and soon will come a death.
>       The scent upon the breeze  is strange, but as I circle in
>       I hear a voice within my mind that calls to me as kin.
>    "Long life I offer and red meat; I ask of you your aid--
>    For now, to save my life!" He sinks; I feel the contact fade.
>       I fly in the attacker's face, he turns to swing at me;
>       The other strikes him dead, then falls. I answer: "I agree."
> 
>    I stay with the Provider now, and him who is my mate.
>    Beyond the jungle that I knew, the world is strange and great.
>       I help him every way I can, he always feeds me well,
>       Although our minds spoke only on that day he cast his spell.
>    He knows my mate as "Loiosh", and "Rocza" he calls me,
>    And Loiosh tells me what he wants and tells him what I see.
>       The years have touched me lightly, though they do not pass me
> by...
>       I think no jhereg in the world more fortunate than I.
> 
> 
> Rocza: RAW-tsah
> Loiosh: LOY-ohsh
> jhereg: ZHEH-reg (according to meter of the spell)
> 
> The spell (_Jhereg_, Ace edition, sixth printing, February 1987, pages
> 225-226, copyright 1983 by Stephen K. Z. Brust; typo corrected):
> 
> Come to me, blood of my House. Join me, hunt with me, find me.
> 
> Let the winds of Jungle's night
> Stay the hunter in her flight.
> Evening's breath to witch's mind
> Let our fates be intertwined.
> Jhereg! Do not pass me by!
> Show me where thy soul doth lie!
> 
> 



Well done! Righteous devotion, or just too much time on your hands?


From rone at ennui.org  Thu Sep 23 15:54:25 2004
From: rone at ennui.org (rone)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:54:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person
In-Reply-To: <01a701c4a1e3$92a5bd00$0400a8c0@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <20040923225425.ECB0526D12@boredom.ennui.org>

Rion Bergquist writes:
  Tully is Robert Asprin's bribe, er rather drink of choice.
  I had Steve and Robert at my show this past May and I don't recall Steve
  drinking any of the Tully.

Well, i assure you that someone brought a bottle of the stuff to
Steve's room at Conjecture and he partook cheerily enough of it.

rone
-- 
Here comes the tired statesman,
Heavy-lidded, bearded, nowhere left to land
He makes the jigsaw fit
With a hammer in his hand


From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 23 16:02:02 2004
From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 16:02:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Ying xiong, aka Hero
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040921152445.13941A-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <20040923230202.7959.qmail@web50707.mail.yahoo.com>


--- David Silberstein <davids at Kithrup.COM> wrote:
...

> As I've said elsewhere, my view of the King of Qin/Duke of Ch'in is
> probably hopelessly tainted by having read Barry Hughart's /Bridge
> of Birds/, where he is very much not noble nor nice..

Mine is tainted by a very brief acquaintance with Chinese history.
"Not nice" seems to have been everyone's conclusion about him till
the PRC (of course) rehabilitated him, or else.

Jerry


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca  Thu Sep 23 18:14:20 2004
From: jamesandmary.burbidge at sympatico.ca (James Burbidge)
Date: 23 Sep 2004 21:14:20 -0400
Subject: Pararectal - A real word?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0409231721470.11879@ueno.bdi.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040917172338.27362A-100000@kithrup.com>	<Pine.SGI.4.40.0409222206460.1055309-100000@shell01-g>	<20040923121242.GD24025@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> 	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0409231721470.11879@ueno.bdi.com>
Message-ID: <1095988482.1431.3.camel@ilmarin>

On Thu, 2004-09-23 at 17:25, John Klein wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Steve Simmons wrote:
> 
> @> > . . .  Linguists have been using "disambiguate" for a long
> @> > time. It earns my vote as one of the ugliest words I know, but it is
> @> > absolutely too useful (at least in my professional language) to do
> @> > without.
> @>
> @> It also has some usage in the relational calculus, the theory that
> @> underlies relational databases.
> 
> Plus in game development, for IF text parsers.
> 

And in programming language design/implementation, i.e. designing and
writing parsers.



From dd-b at dd-b.net  Fri Sep 24 00:36:12 2004
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 02:36:12 -0500
Subject: Updated pronunciation guide
Message-ID: <m2u0toi0er.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>

The first visible results of the update to the pronunciation guide are
available.  Many recordings have been added (including replacing some
of the worst of the first batch).  A fair number of words, with
recordings, have been added. 

What I *haven't* even started to do is start to add the textual
pronunciation information for all the words that don't have it.  And I
need to make some changes in the introduction.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From jhereg69 at earthlink.net  Fri Sep 24 04:34:47 2004
From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:34:47 -0400
Subject: Updated pronunciation guide
In-Reply-To: <m2u0toi0er.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>
References: <m2u0toi0er.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>
Message-ID: <41540657.6050002@earthlink.net>

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> The first visible results of the update to the pronunciation guide are
> available.  Many recordings have been added (including replacing some
> of the worst of the first batch).  A fair number of words, with
> recordings, have been added. 
> 
> What I *haven't* even started to do is start to add the textual
> pronunciation information for all the words that don't have it.  And I
> need to make some changes in the introduction.

I almost fell out of my chair laughing at the pronunciation of 
Hirtrinkneff. Thanks to both you and Steve for taking the time to do this.

Jose
-- 
Jose Marquez            \  Cthulhu 2004
jhereg69 at hackwater.com   \  Why vote for
http://www.hackwater.com  \  the lesser evil?



From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com  Fri Sep 24 07:53:27 2004
From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:53:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Updated pronunciation guide
In-Reply-To: <m2u0toi0er.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>
Message-ID: <20040924145327.56254.qmail@web50709.mail.yahoo.com>

--- David Dyer-Bennet <dd-b at dd-b.net> wrote:

> The first visible results of the update to the pronunciation guide are
> available.  Many recordings have been added (including replacing some
> of the worst of the first batch).  A fair number of words, with
> recordings, have been added.

Thank you!

There appears to be a joke.

> What I *haven't* even started to do is start to add the textual
> pronunciation information for all the words that don't have it.  And I
> need to make some changes in the introduction.

I actually joined this list to make some comments on the pronunciation
page.  Yahoo or I did something wrong and my post got lost, and then
I got interested in other stuff here.  Of course the sound files solve
lots of problems, and I'm highly impressed by Cl!yng whatever and
Hwdwhatever, but now that I've been reminded, I might send some
comments to the list.

Jerry Friedman


		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


From Dzurlord at gmail.com  Fri Sep 24 17:47:13 2004
From: Dzurlord at gmail.com (Cheese Weasel)
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 20:47:13 -0400
Subject: Ying xiong, aka Hero
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040922182036.4099B-100000@kithrup.com>
References: <1s02l0dpile07iof73edppsuhvk1ahchhb@4ax.com>	 <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040922182036.4099B-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <c71c9b3904092417472427496@mail.gmail.com>

> I was wondering if there was anything in the movie that subverted
> the overt meaning of the ending.  For example, I note that those
> who opposed the king were named "Sky" and "Moon" and "Broken
> Sword."   "Sky" might map to "Heaven", "Moon" might map to the Moon
> Goddess, but I am not sure what to make of "Broken Sword".  I wish
> I knew more about Chinese symbolism to be able to analyze that.
> Also, there might be meanings to the colors which are
> less-than-obvious.
> 

this is my first reply to the list, so forgive me if I do something
stupid and annoying. also: hello.

however, in regards to broken sword; you may be looking for too vague
a reference. broken sword is so named, I think, because he had stopped
fighting. Instead of regicide, all broken sword desired was peace. A
sword that is not used is broken? I could be way off on this, but it
is how I perceived it.

also, I thought the message of the film was not so much unity over
individuality as making personal sacrifices for the good of all. I
cannot argue that the chinese see much of that as giving up personal
freedoms for more security, but I felt that it was talking about what
one person can do as a patriot when he's willing to make sacrifices.


From mam at theworld.com  Sat Sep 25 05:38:07 2004
From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 08:38:07 -0400
Subject: Rocza's Song
In-Reply-To: <014901c4a1bf$60a07350$6601a8c0@BOB>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0409250835100.1245331-100000@shell01-g>

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004, Rebecca wrote:

#> Rocza's Song
#> Mark A. Mandel Copr. 2004
#Well done! Righteous devotion, or just too much time on your hands?

Oh, you could say both, or neither. I do a lot of this sort of thing.
See the URLs below.

There's a tune to it, too. I'm working on it.

-- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname
     http://mark.cracksandshards.com/filk.html
     Now on the Filker's Bardic Webring!

   http://cracksandshards.com
   a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website




From mam at theworld.com  Sat Sep 25 13:03:56 2004
From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 16:03:56 -0400
Subject: Rocza's Song
In-Reply-To: <1095902697.2373.21.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0409251603170.1259516-100000@shell01-g>

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Steve Brust wrote:

#On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 20:28, Mark A Mandel wrote:
#> Rocza's Song
#> Mark A. Mandel Copr. 2004
#
#Wow.

I feel honored. Glad you like it.

-- Mark A. Mandel
   http://cracksandshards.com
   a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website




From jhereg69 at earthlink.net  Sun Sep 26 06:47:41 2004
From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez)
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 09:47:41 -0400
Subject: Ying xiong, aka Hero
In-Reply-To: <c71c9b3904092417472427496@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1s02l0dpile07iof73edppsuhvk1ahchhb@4ax.com>	 <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040922182036.4099B-100000@kithrup.com> <c71c9b3904092417472427496@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4156C87D.8020307@earthlink.net>

Cheese Weasel wrote:
>>I was wondering if there was anything in the movie that subverted
>>the overt meaning of the ending.  For example, I note that those
>>who opposed the king were named "Sky" and "Moon" and "Broken
>>Sword."   "Sky" might map to "Heaven", "Moon" might map to the Moon
>>Goddess, but I am not sure what to make of "Broken Sword".  I wish
>>I knew more about Chinese symbolism to be able to analyze that.
>>Also, there might be meanings to the colors which are
>>less-than-obvious.
>>
> 
> 
> this is my first reply to the list, so forgive me if I do something
> stupid and annoying. also: hello.
> 
> however, in regards to broken sword; you may be looking for too vague
> a reference. broken sword is so named, I think, because he had stopped
> fighting. Instead of regicide, all broken sword desired was peace. A
> sword that is not used is broken? I could be way off on this, but it
> is how I perceived it.
> 
> also, I thought the message of the film was not so much unity over
> individuality as making personal sacrifices for the good of all. I
> cannot argue that the chinese see much of that as giving up personal
> freedoms for more security, but I felt that it was talking about what
> one person can do as a patriot when he's willing to make sacrifices.

Welcome to the list! Alas, I haven't seen the film yet, so I can't agree 
or disagree with your comments. I do plan on it, once I can get some 
uninterrupted time.

Also, do prefer being referred to as Cheese, or Mr. Weasel?

Jose
-- 
Jose Marquez            \  Cthulhu 2004
jhereg69 at hackwater.com   \  Why vote for
http://www.hackwater.com  \  the lesser evil?



From calianng_graves at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 27 17:28:50 2004
From: calianng_graves at yahoo.com (Caliann the Elf)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 17:28:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person
In-Reply-To: <01a701c4a1e3$92a5bd00$0400a8c0@attbi.com>
Message-ID: <20040928002850.94759.qmail@web61206.mail.yahoo.com>


Steve's booze of choice is Laghavelin Single Malt Scotch, although he will do fine with Irish Whiskey.  However, you cannot give him too much as he *is* a cheap date and would soon be sliding under the table.  <smiles>

 

He has obtained a fondness for hot brandy toddies. :)

 

Peace,

Caliann



"Offense theives. -- they take it when it isn't offered." --Tom Digby
		
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today!

From mam at theworld.com  Mon Sep 27 18:39:20 2004
From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 21:39:20 -0400
Subject: Rocza's Song
In-Reply-To: <1095902697.2373.21.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.30.0409272138370.18793-100000@world.std.com>

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Steve Brust wrote:

#On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 20:28, Mark A Mandel wrote:
#> Rocza's Song
#> Mark A. Mandel Copr. 2004
#
#Wow.

Does that mean I "captured" Rocza more or less the way you think of her?

:D

-- Mark A. Mandel
   http://cracksandshards.com
   a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website


-- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname
     http://mark.cracksandshards.com/filk.html
     Now on the Filker's Bardic Webring!




From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com  Mon Sep 27 21:06:20 2004
From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 00:06:20 EDT
Subject: Updated pronunciation guide
Message-ID: <1d2.2c6bdefd.2e8a3d3c@aol.com>

David Dyer-Bennet wrote on Wed, 22 Sep 2004 23:39:00 -0500 


>*And* I've got a photo of Steven speaking into a mysterious silver
>box, too. 

Hi,

Thank you for all your work on the Pronunciation Guide.

So of the two names I submitted, I couldn't find one.  Ah ha, that
must mean something.  Whoops, it meant that I did not look hard 
enough at the list.  

David, may we see the picture of Steven with the mysterious silver
box, please?

I went looking where you have your Pics:<http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> 
<http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/> but did not find. 

Thank you for sharing your pictures.  David, I see you know someone 
who works with miniatures.  I was thinking a nice miniature would be 
of a coat rack with a full-length grey cape, a spare rapier where an 
umbrella would fit, and, of course, a winged lizard or two.
(Cover version or text version)

I was also thinking about how the Pronunciation Guide is under
the heading Articles (Some articles on Dragaeran life, culture, and art.)
and what might be another possible article.

Life

1.  The Cycle (maybe even read by someone into a mysterious silver box)

Culture and Art

2.  Spells  Calling Loiosh.  Calling Rocza.

3.  Listing of paintings.

4.  Music/Singing/Songs/Types of drums.

5.  Listing of books that Dragaeran's have written, but have not been 
made available to us.

6.  Poems

7.  Cooking(some with a warning not to try this recipe)

8.  Story telling

9.  Crocheting

10. Architecture

I cannot think of any other Dragaeran art--unless you count war
and knife-throwing. 

Bye.

Linda G.
 

From davids at Kithrup.COM  Mon Sep 27 21:47:26 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 21:47:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Updated pronunciation guide
In-Reply-To: <1d2.2c6bdefd.2e8a3d3c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040927213653.745A-100000@kithrup.com>

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote:

> 2.  Spells

Both sorcerous and witchcraft, and perhaps "other" as well.

>
>5.  Listing of books that Dragaeran's 

Since "Dragaerans" is a plural, and neither a possessive nor a
contraction, it does not take an apostrophe anywhere at all.

See also: BtAF.

>have written, but have not been made available to us.

Those are cataloged in the Invisible Library:

   http://www.invisiblelibrary.com/libauthor1.htm

   Overview of the Architecture of the Old Imperial Palace
   Bedra of Ynn and Lotro: An Historical and Poetical Comparison

And like that.

Although perhaps the library needs an update now that /The Viscount
of Adrilankha/ has been completed.

>
>I cannot think of any other Dragaeran art--unless you count war
>and knife-throwing.
> 

War is more specifically of the House of the Dragon. 
Knife-throwing is more typical of the House of the Jhereg (although
some other Houses may study it as well).  Perhaps you mean fencing?




From skzb at dreamcafe.com  Mon Sep 27 18:22:43 2004
From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust)
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 18:22:43 -0700
Subject: Rocza's Song
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.30.0409272138370.18793-100000@world.std.com>
References: <Pine.SGI.4.30.0409272138370.18793-100000@world.std.com>
Message-ID: <1096334562.2373.138.camel@localhost>

Yeah, I'd say so, though what I meant was just that I thought it was
cool.


On Mon, 2004-09-27 at 18:39, Mark A Mandel wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Sep 2004, Steve Brust wrote:
> 
> #On Wed, 2004-09-22 at 20:28, Mark A Mandel wrote:
> #> Rocza's Song
> #> Mark A. Mandel Copr. 2004
> #
> #Wow.
> 
> Does that mean I "captured" Rocza more or less the way you think of her?
> 
> :D
> 
> -- Mark A. Mandel
>    http://cracksandshards.com
>    a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website
> 
> 
> -- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname
>      http://mark.cracksandshards.com/filk.html
>      Now on the Filker's Bardic Webring!
> 
> 
> 



From howard at brazee.net  Tue Sep 28 04:54:26 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 05:54:26 -0600
Subject: Updated pronunciation guide
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040927213653.745A-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <000201c4a551$e80ce630$b07ba8c0@Dad133>

David Silberstein wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 FRIEDA2133 at aol.com wrote:
>
>> 2.  Spells
>
> Both sorcerous and witchcraft, and perhaps "other" as well.
>
>>
>> 5.  Listing of books that Dragaeran's
>
> Since "Dragaerans" is a plural, and neither a possessive nor a
> contraction, it does not take an apostrophe anywhere at all.

I just picked up the book _Eats, Shoots & Leaves: The Zero Tolerance
Approach to Punctuation_.   Looks like it will be fun.




From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov  Tue Sep 28 08:22:20 2004
From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:22:20 -0400
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person
In-Reply-To: <20040928002850.94759.qmail@web61206.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040928002850.94759.qmail@web61206.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <415981AC.3000107@email.ers.usda.gov>

Caliann the Elf wrote:

>Steve's booze of choice is Laghavelin Single Malt Scotch, although he will do fine with Irish Whiskey.  However, you cannot give him too much as he *is* a cheap date and would soon be sliding under the table.  <smiles>
>  
>

Lagavulin?  Now that's *my* kind of drinker!  Lessee. . . where'd I 
stash that bottle?

Snarkhunter


From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Tue Sep 28 10:51:03 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:51:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person
In-Reply-To: <415981AC.3000107@email.ers.usda.gov>
References: <20040928002850.94759.qmail@web61206.mail.yahoo.com> <415981AC.3000107@email.ers.usda.gov>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0409281043060.18286@rdpc11.slac.stanford.edu>



On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Ken Koester wrote:

> Caliann the Elf wrote:
>
> >Steve's booze of choice is Laghavelin Single Malt Scotch ...
> >
> >
>
> Lagavulin?  Now that's *my* kind of drinker!  Lessee. . . where'd I
> stash that bottle?

Is that the oily, peaty, tarry, don't-touch-a-match-to-your-tongue stuff?


Anyone know why it's "tarry" (to which I want to prepend "Now for a
breath I") and not "peatty" etc.?


From howard at brazee.net  Tue Sep 28 12:12:38 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 13:12:38 -0600
Subject: Updated pronunciation guide
In-Reply-To: <000201c4a551$e80ce630$b07ba8c0@Dad133>
References: <000201c4a551$e80ce630$b07ba8c0@Dad133>
Message-ID: <opse1wzcnfmng2fm@emerald.he.net>

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 05:54:26 -0600, Howard Brazee <howard at brazee.net>  
wrote:

> I just picked up the book _Eats, Shoots & Leaves: The Zero Tolerance
> Approach to Punctuation_.   Looks like it will be fun.


It is fun, but her publicized change is from "Two Weeks Notice" to putting  
an apostrophe after the s.

She says if it is "One Week's Notice", then it should be "Two Weeks'  
Notice".   I can't argue with that, but why should she assume that "Two  
Weeks" possesses "Notice"?

I say "One Week Notice", which is a "Notice that lasts One Week".   "Two  
Weeks Notice" is a "Notice that lasts Two Weeks".

Or does she also say "Termination's Notice"?


-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/


From log0n5150 at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 28 12:30:34 2004
From: log0n5150 at hotmail.com (jeff G.)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 19:30:34 +0000
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person
Message-ID: <BAY23-F3842NXHwGrRD00009b63@hotmail.com>




Caliann the Elf wrote:

>Steve's booze of choice is Laghavelin Single Malt Scotch, although he will 
>do fine with Irish Whiskey.  However, you cannot give him too much as he 
>*is* a cheap date and would soon be sliding under the table.  <smiles>
>
>

Lagavulin?  Now that's *my* kind of drinker!  Lessee. . . where'd I stash 
that bottle?

Snarkhunter

Hmm, never had Laghavelin, but Glenfiddich Single Malt has been known to 
grace my home from time to time, although I made the switch from Scotch to 
Bourbon some time ago. . . . Anyone recall the whisky mentioned in Cowboy 
Fengs? It was also a single malt, if I recall. Our esteemed author has as 
sensitive a palate for drink as he does for food, it seems.

Jeff

_________________________________________________________________
Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to 
School Guide! http://special.msn.com/network/04backtoschool.armx



From dd-b at dd-b.net  Tue Sep 28 12:42:17 2004
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:42:17 -0500
Subject: Updated pronunciation guide
In-Reply-To: <1d2.2c6bdefd.2e8a3d3c@aol.com> (FRIEDA2133@aol.com's message
 of "Tue, 28 Sep 2004 00:06:20 EDT")
References: <1d2.2c6bdefd.2e8a3d3c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <m2vfdydvty.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>

FRIEDA2133 at aol.com writes:

> David Dyer-Bennet wrote on Wed, 22 Sep 2004 23:39:00 -0500 
>
>
>>*And* I've got a photo of Steven speaking into a mysterious silver
>>box, too. 
>
> Hi,
>
> Thank you for all your work on the Pronunciation Guide.
>
> So of the two names I submitted, I couldn't find one.  Ah ha, that
> must mean something.  Whoops, it meant that I did not look hard 
> enough at the list.  
>
> David, may we see the picture of Steven with the mysterious silver
> box, please?
>
> I went looking where you have your Pics:<http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> 
> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/> but did not find. 

It'll be coming, probably in association with the pronunciation guide
(I've held it off the snapshot album pages until it shows up on
dragaera.info). 

> Thank you for sharing your pictures.  David, I see you know someone 
> who works with miniatures.  I was thinking a nice miniature would be 
> of a coat rack with a full-length grey cape, a spare rapier where an 
> umbrella would fit, and, of course, a winged lizard or two.
> (Cover version or text version)
>
> I was also thinking about how the Pronunciation Guide is under
> the heading Articles (Some articles on Dragaeran life, culture, and art.)
> and what might be another possible article.
>
> Life
>
> 1.  The Cycle (maybe even read by someone into a mysterious silver box)
>
> Culture and Art
>
> 2.  Spells  Calling Loiosh.  Calling Rocza.
>
> 3.  Listing of paintings.
>
> 4.  Music/Singing/Songs/Types of drums.
>
> 5.  Listing of books that Dragaeran's have written, but have not been 
> made available to us.
>
> 6.  Poems
>
> 7.  Cooking(some with a warning not to try this recipe)
>
> 8.  Story telling
>
> 9.  Crocheting
>
> 10. Architecture
>
> I cannot think of any other Dragaeran art--unless you count war
> and knife-throwing. 

All of those topics are of interest.  Anybody interested in writing an
article about them, we'd be interested in posting it at dragaera.info
(in theory; normal editorial practices apply, i.e. if we don't like it
at all then forget it). 

I've thought about more specialized recipe, song, and image sections,
but figure there's no point in planning and implementing something
theoretical.  So I'm waiting until we have enough of them accumulated
various places to show me how I need to handle them in general.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From scott at cjhunter.com  Tue Sep 28 13:43:59 2004
From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 13:43:59 -0700
Subject: Idle Speculation - The Tekla Republic
In-Reply-To: <m2vfdydvty.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>
Message-ID: <1f9e01c4a59b$ecbb5370$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>

Judging by how matter of factly Dragaeran historians talk about a Tekla
Republic, it seems that the Tekla must always be forming this sort of
government when the cycle turns their way.

I'm wondering what sort of government it is that they create. Is it a
republic like our own, or is it more of a constitutional monarchy? Does it
have a parliament? How often are elections held? How long does the ruler
hold power? Does a Tekla Republic actually last past the tenure of the
initially elected leader? 

Most importantly, what part does the orb play in a republic of duly elected
rulers? If the case of Adron's Disaster as told by Paarfi is reasonably
accurate, the orb instinctively knows who the heir of the next house is. 

What happens when the previous (Athyra?) house's ruler dies in office? Would
the orb simply sit idle, creating a mini-Interregnum until an elected leader
takes office? I suppose I can see where this would be seen as a signal that
the Cycle had turned, the loss of sorcery triggering the rebellion that
would cause the change in government.

Perhaps the question has never come up. It may simply be that in seventeen
cycles (Zerika's reign is the end/beginning of a Great Cycle: How many Great
Cycles have there been? Is this the first, as I suspect?) no Athyra(?) ruler
has died in office. Instead, the Tekla Revolution occurs and the orb is
handed over in an orderly manner from the current Emporer to the new
President after elections are held.

I'd ask what happens if a President refuses to hand the orb over to his
incoming replacement,but I'd expect that the answer to that is either 1) The
orb simply moves of its own accord as it recognizes its rightful holder or
2) civil war results and the next House in line attempts to take the throne
since the rule of a Tekla dictator is a sure sign that the Cycle has turned
(or is ready to do so).

I wonder what Paarfi would have to say about it?

Scott Schultz
scott at cjhunter.com




From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us  Tue Sep 28 14:05:48 2004
From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:05:48 -0400
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0409281043060.18286@rdpc11.slac.stanford.edu>
References: <20040928002850.94759.qmail@web61206.mail.yahoo.com> <415981AC.3000107@email.ers.usda.gov> <Pine.LNX.4.58.0409281043060.18286@rdpc11.slac.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <20040928210548.GA1835@lokkur.dexter.mi.us>

On Tue, Sep 28, 2004 at 10:51:03AM -0700, Philip Hart wrote:

> > Caliann the Elf wrote:
> >
> > >Steve's booze of choice is Laghavelin Single Malt Scotch ...
> >
> > Lagavulin?  Now that's *my* kind of drinker!  Lessee. . . where'd I
> > stash that bottle?
> 
> Is that the oily, peaty, tarry, don't-touch-a-match-to-your-tongue stuff?

There are quite a number which match that description, but the best
known is Laphroaig.  Very peaty and smokey taste, absolutely horrid
to those who aren't already accustomed to the taste of scotch.  It's
pretty good, but a single shot kills my taste buds for the night.

Lagavulin is damned good stuff.
-- 
   "...too many people want things to be simple when they are not and
cannot be.  Encouraging that desire is seductive and rewarding, but also
dangerous."      Iain M. Banks, 'Against a Dark Background', pp 299


From mneme at io.com  Tue Sep 28 14:10:57 2004
From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 16:10:57 -0500
Subject: Idle Speculation - The Tekla Republic
In-Reply-To: <1f9e01c4a59b$ecbb5370$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
References: <m2vfdydvty.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>	<1f9e01c4a59b$ecbb5370$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <16729.54113.775128.729423@fnord.io.com>

Scott Schultz writes:
>I'm wondering what sort of government it is that they create. Is it a
>republic like our own, or is it more of a constitutional monarchy? Does it
>have a parliament? How often are elections held? How long does the ruler
>hold power? Does a Tekla Republic actually last past the tenure of the
>initially elected leader? 

It seems pretty obvious.  
The Tekla Republic begins in bloody revolution.  It takes power with
high ideals, but the desire for revolution on the new government's
"betters" gets the better of the leaders, and they begin massacring
those nobles they can find and blame (the nobles, knowing which way
the grass is blowing, hide).  Then it gets worse, the various Tekla
demagogues eventually turning on one another, each seeking the Orb,
but doing great violence to the empire as they do so. Eventually,
things proceed to the point where it's obvious that the Repubulic
cannot be saved, and the Jhegalla heir manages to gather the scattered
reins of rulership and bring an end to the remains of the republic
(and become Emperor).  

>What happens when the previous (Athyra?) house's ruler dies in
>office?

Presumably, the Athyra heir takes over.
You didn't think that only one Emperor could rule per reign, did you?
What would happen if an emperor was killed before the minimum term?


-- 
       Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org))  |\      _,,,--,,_  ,)
--^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick    /,`.-'`'   -,  ;-;;'  
  /\\  your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle     |,4-  ) )-,_ ) /\     
/-\\\  your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax            '---''(_/--' (_/-'     


From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Tue Sep 28 14:35:22 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:35:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Idle Speculation - The Tekla Republic
In-Reply-To: <16729.54113.775128.729423@fnord.io.com>
References: <m2vfdydvty.fsf@gw.dd-b.net> <1f9e01c4a59b$ecbb5370$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <16729.54113.775128.729423@fnord.io.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0409281433050.18726@rdpc11.slac.stanford.edu>



On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Joshua Kronengold wrote:

> Scott Schultz writes:
> [...]
> >What happens when the previous (Athyra?) house's ruler dies in
> >office?
>
> Presumably, the Athyra heir takes over.
> You didn't think that only one Emperor could rule per reign, did you?

I think it's one bite at the apple/house, but as best I can recall the
textev is mute or slightly against me.

> What would happen if an emperor was killed before the minimum term?

I think the universe would cease to exist.

(Incidentally the evidence for a minimum term isn't ironclad.)


From scott at cjhunter.com  Tue Sep 28 14:41:33 2004
From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:41:33 -0700
Subject: Idle Speculation - The Tekla Republic
In-Reply-To: <16729.54113.775128.729423@fnord.io.com>
Message-ID: <204101c4a5a3$f6bd9b50$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>


> Presumably, the Athyra heir takes over.
> You didn't think that only one Emperor could rule per reign, 
> did you? What would happen if an emperor was killed before 
> the minimum term?

Considering that the few examples of rulership that we have all seem to
consist of the lifetime of a single emporer/empress, that's exactly what
I've been thinking. 

Remember, we're talking mystical processes at work here. The Throne hasn't
been shown to be hereditary in any sense that we would normally think of the
word. In fact, it's not very clear at all how the Heir of any particular
House is chosen. 

In any case, with very rare exceptions the Orb protects the life of the
Emperor/Empress. It's no great stretch to imagine that it also protects the
health of its owner as well. If the Orb allows its holder to die, then
that's a sign that the Cycle has turned. By example from the Paarfiad,
Tortaalik had been in office far short of what you're calling the "minimum
term". I don't have the book to reference but I'm fairly certain his reign
was a pretty short one by Dragaeran standards. Despite this, the Orb moved
to Adron once it had determined that the Emporer was dead beyond all recall.
It didn't seek out the next Phoenix in line. It sought out the heir of the
next House in line.

Basically, I see a lot of evidence that the Cycle changes when the sitting
Emporer dies or abdicates, while I've seen no evidence that the Throne is
passed from one Emporer to another within the same phase of the Cycle. 





From mneme at io.com  Tue Sep 28 14:52:51 2004
From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 16:52:51 -0500
Subject: Idle Speculation - The Tekla Republic
In-Reply-To: <204101c4a5a3$f6bd9b50$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
References: <16729.54113.775128.729423@fnord.io.com>	<204101c4a5a3$f6bd9b50$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <16729.56627.523532.207464@fnord.io.com>

Scott Schultz writes:
>that's a sign that the Cycle has turned. By example from the Paarfiad,

Which is fiction...

>was a pretty short one by Dragaeran standards. Despite this, the Orb moved
>to Adron once it had determined that the Emporer was dead beyond all recall.
>It didn't seek out the next Phoenix in line. It sought out the heir of the
>next House in line.

However, what we've heard from Sethra on the subject contradicts
Paarfi on this matter directly.  Paarfi made a guess based on the
historical evidence, and was wrong.

>Basically, I see a lot of evidence that the Cycle changes when the sitting
>Emporer dies or abdicates, while I've seen no evidence that the Throne is
>passed from one Emporer to another within the same phase of the Cycle. 

The existence of a Tekla Republic itself would seem to contradict
this.

So would a Phoenix scheming to take the throne from another Phoenix
(as we saw evidence for in the Paarfiad, in something that presumably
-is- in the historical record, unlike Sethra's speculations about
magical theory) by poison.

Check your spellcheck on "emperor", btw.



-- 
       Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org))  |\      _,,,--,,_  ,)
--^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick    /,`.-'`'   -,  ;-;;'  
  /\\  your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle     |,4-  ) )-,_ ) /\     
/-\\\  your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax            '---''(_/--' (_/-'     


From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Tue Sep 28 15:00:46 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 15:00:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Idle Speculation - The Tekla Republic
In-Reply-To: <16729.56627.523532.207464@fnord.io.com>
References: <16729.54113.775128.729423@fnord.io.com> <204101c4a5a3$f6bd9b50$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <16729.56627.523532.207464@fnord.io.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0409281457510.18726@rdpc11.slac.stanford.edu>



On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Joshua Kronengold wrote:

> Scott Schultz writes:
> >that's a sign that the Cycle has turned. By example from the Paarfiad,
>
> Which is fiction...

Says who?


> >was a pretty short one by Dragaeran standards. Despite this, the Orb moved
> >to Adron once it had determined that the Emporer was dead beyond all recall.
> >It didn't seek out the next Phoenix in line. It sought out the heir of the
> >next House in line.
>
> However, what we've heard from Sethra on the subject contradicts
> Paarfi on this matter directly.  Paarfi made a guess based on the
> historical evidence, and was wrong.

Sethra wrote a history?  (Actually I think she did - the Paarfiad.)

Anyway, it's not correct that the previous reign was shorter than minimum
- the White Goblet scandal did occur before 17**2 but that was hundreds of
years past by the time of _FHYA_.


From greyw01f at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 28 15:02:10 2004
From: greyw01f at hotmail.com (J C)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 22:02:10 +0000
Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS)
Message-ID: <BAY17-F39kB4ltFlmml00001968@hotmail.com>


Now hold on, here...The orb went to go to Adron but was prevented to by the 
spell which was designed to render the orb inert, or something....

But it seems obvious that the orb was "confused" as to the next house which 
would reign.  Why would it go to the Dragon Heir if the reign called for a 
reborn Phoenix?

At the time of each transfer of the orb, I put forward that there is the 
possibilty for greater or lesser sociopolitical turbulence, but that the 
transfer of the orb after a GREAT cycle is pretty much a guarantee for some 
turbulence at some mythical or legendary degree.

We have textev that there can be more than one emperor per reign; we just 
have not got any clear instances of where that is actually the case.

I would also argue that a Teckla reign can be any and all of the possible 
governments which pollute the world nowadays--you could have a monarchy, 
whose ruler happens to be a teckla, or you could have the "American Dream", 
or a constitutional monarchy, such as the UK has, or communist regime, or 
tyrannical slaughter that was the French Revolution.  However, these 
governments can be fleeting; so it may be during a Teckla reign where we are 
most likely to see more than one Emperor per reign, due to political 
infighting caused by conflicting claims on the orb, or a joint-ownership or 
oligarchical government, etc...

But because it is a Teckla reign, and since no one in power nowadays gives 
two rat's shits about Teckla, who would care, (other than a Lyorn) to record 
that there were multiple rulers during the xth Teckla reign...Paarfi seems 
to have an aversion to truly academic pursuits, and Vlad sees them like most 
other Dragaerans do, with perhaps some slight difference, due to the events 
of Athyra, and Sethra who would remember only seems to care about the 
present circumstances, which is to say, she'd remember everything a Teckla 
ruler could wish to know, during the Reign of a Teckla.  Otherwise, she 
tends to be most useful to the person who needs to use her talents to 
protect Dragaera from the Jenoine, and possibly the Gods as well.

Jon

_________________________________________________________________
Powerful Parental Controls Let your child discover the best the Internet has 
to offer.  
http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines 
  Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN? Premium right now and get the 
first two months FREE*.



From mneme at io.com  Tue Sep 28 15:04:32 2004
From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:04:32 -0500
Subject: Idle Speculation - The Tekla Republic
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0409281457510.18726@rdpc11.slac.stanford.edu>
References: <16729.54113.775128.729423@fnord.io.com>	<204101c4a5a3$f6bd9b50$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>	<16729.56627.523532.207464@fnord.io.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0409281457510.18726@rdpc11.slac.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <16729.57328.540315.276267@fnord.io.com>

Philip Hart writes:
>On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Joshua Kronengold wrote:
>> Scott Schultz writes:
>> >that's a sign that the Cycle has turned. By example from the Paarfiad,
>> Which is fiction...
>Says who?

Vlad?

Me?  

The fact that it's a Dumas pastiche, and Dumas wrote fiction?

>Sethra wrote a history?  (Actually I think she did - the Paarfiad.)

*giggle*.  She made statements.  I wouldn't put it past her (to be
Paarfi), but I'm skeptical anyway.  And, of course, she wouldn't
scruple to lie even if she -was- Paarfi.

>Anyway, it's not correct that the previous reign was shorter than minimum
>- the White Goblet scandal did occur before 17**2 but that was hundreds of
>years past by the time of _FHYA_.

Quite.  Which backs up my point, of course -- the White Goblet scandal
would make no sense if a reign never outlived its first Emperor or
Empress.


-- 
       Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org))  |\      _,,,--,,_  ,)
--^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick    /,`.-'`'   -,  ;-;;'  
  /\\  your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle     |,4-  ) )-,_ ) /\     
/-\\\  your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax            '---''(_/--' (_/-'     


From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Tue Sep 28 17:04:21 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:04:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Idle Speculation - The Tekla Republic
In-Reply-To: <16729.57328.540315.276267@fnord.io.com>
References: <16729.54113.775128.729423@fnord.io.com> <204101c4a5a3$f6bd9b50$3125ae3f@Magnumnew> <16729.56627.523532.207464@fnord.io.com> <Pine.LNX.4.58.0409281457510.18726@rdpc11.slac.stanford.edu> <16729.57328.540315.276267@fnord.io.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0409281650520.18726@rdpc11.slac.stanford.edu>



On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Joshua Kronengold wrote:

> Philip Hart writes:
>
> >Sethra wrote a history?  (Actually I think she did - the Paarfiad.)
>
> *giggle*.  She made statements.

Reported by Paarfi or Vlad...

> I wouldn't put it past her (to be Paarfi), but I'm skeptical anyway.
> And, of course, she wouldn't scruple to lie even if she -was- Paarfi.

I don't think she's Paarfi - I think she fed him the info she wanted him
to publish.  He nearly says as much on a couple of occasions.  This
stovepiping enabled her to e.g. support the Empress's claim to the throne
and complete the coverup of T's murder by Aliera and herself.


> >Anyway, it's not correct that the previous reign was shorter than minimum
> >- the White Goblet scandal did occur before 17**2 but that was hundreds of
> >years past by the time of _FHYA_.
>
> Quite.  Which backs up my point, of course -- the White Goblet scandal
> would make no sense if a reign never outlived its first Emperor or
> Empress.


I believe I have previously posted a sufficiency of possible scenarios
under which the WG scandal makes sense in a one-bite universe less than
17**2 years into Tortaalik's reign.  For example, they might have intended
to disable T resulting in a regency; or planned on enraging him and
provoking reactions they could take advantage of; or the 17**2 rule
might be an urban legend which Vlad has bought into or found amusing.



From mam at theworld.com  Tue Sep 28 18:22:25 2004
From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:22:25 -0400
Subject: Idle Speculation - The Tekla Republic
In-Reply-To: <16729.56627.523532.207464@fnord.io.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0409282121140.1532857-100000@shell01-g>

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Joshua Kronengold wrote:

#The existence of a Tekla Republic itself would seem to contradict
#this.
#
#So would a Phoenix scheming to take the throne from another Phoenix
#(as we saw evidence for in the Paarfiad, in something that presumably
#-is- in the historical record, unlike Sethra's speculations about
#magical theory) by poison.
#
#Check your spellcheck on "emperor", btw.
#


Heh. Check yours on "Teckla".

-- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and
   Philological Busybody
   a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel
   http://cracksandshards.com
   a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website




From mam at theworld.com  Tue Sep 28 18:19:26 2004
From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:19:26 -0400
Subject: Updated pronunciation guide
In-Reply-To: <opse1wzcnfmng2fm@emerald.he.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0409282052500.1532857-100000@shell01-g>

#On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 05:54:26 -0600, Howard Brazee <howard at brazee.net>
#wrote:
#
#> I just picked up the book _Eats, Shoots & Leaves: The Zero Tolerance
#> Approach to Punctuation_.   Looks like it will be fun.
#
#
#It is fun, but her publicized change is from "Two Weeks Notice" to putting
#an apostrophe after the s.
#
#She says if it is "One Week's Notice", then it should be "Two Weeks'
#Notice".   I can't argue with that, but why should she assume that "Two
#Weeks" possesses "Notice"?
#
#I say "One Week Notice", which is a "Notice that lasts One Week".   "Two
#Weeks Notice" is a "Notice that lasts Two Weeks".
#
#Or does she also say "Termination's Notice"?

You misunderstand the function of the vestigial genitive case in
English. Like the preposition "of", it is not limited to possession, but
can be used to describe other kinds of noun-noun relationship:
 - two dollars' worth of rice
 - a minute's thought
 - a day's wage

If you use "two weeks notice", with no apostrophe, to mean 'notice that
lasts two weeks', do you also speak of "the women room" and "the men
room" for 'the (rest)room for women/men'? Do you carry your books in a
books bag? Or your groceries in a groceries bag? For that matter, would
you ask for one dollar worth of rice? or, rather, would you have asked
for that before this discussion began, before you started thinking about
the question?

Notice that all expressions in the bulleted list are specifically of the
form
	number -- thing being counted -- possessive marker -- thing
being measured:

"Worth" in this expression is what is sometimes called a "measure word",
or in the grammar of languages such as Chinese or Japanese a
"(numerical) classifier". We only have a few of them in English, and
they are exceptions to the general grammar; another one is "head" as in
"5000 head of cattle".


By the way, I wouldn't say that "two weeks' notice" is notice that lasts
two weeks. It is notice that informs of a (particular) event that will
occur in two weeks. Similar is "10 minutes' warning", not to be confused
grammatically with "a 10-minute warning" (where the modifying phrase has
been hyphenated into an adjective, losing all number in the process,
like "a 10-foot pole").

-- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian,
   Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody
   a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel
   [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
Never argue with a pedant over nomenclature. It wastes your time and
annoys the pedant. -- Lois McMaster Bujold, _Memory_







From mark_englehart at cox.net  Tue Sep 28 23:41:49 2004
From: mark_englehart at cox.net (Mark Englehart)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:41:49 -0700
Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <BAY17-F39kB4ltFlmml00001968@hotmail.com>
References: <BAY17-F39kB4ltFlmml00001968@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20040928231634.019e6578@pop.west.cox.net>


>We have textev that there can be more than one emperor per reign; we just 
>have not got any clear instances of where that is actually the case.

And as I recall in Jhereg Vlad informs us that the longest a House can hold 
the throne at a time is 17 to the 17th power.    That puts it way outside 
the lifetime of a single emperor.  Extending a life that long would require 
necromancy, and I don't believe that's possible through the orb.

>I would also argue that a Teckla reign can be any and all of the possible 
>governments which pollute the world nowadays--

I have to disagree.  In Teckla, Verra tells Vlad that the books the 
revolutionaries were working from came from Earth and were not appropriate 
for Dragaera, at least not yet.  That means that communism and socialism at 
least have not been seen in a Teckla Republic.  I suppose I have always 
seen something along the lines of the Roman Senate, where regions send 
representatives, who elect from amongst themselves a Consul to hold 
executive power.  The Consul would get the Orb for his turn of service, 
which of course is at the pleasure of the Senate.  The Orb would go along 
with this because it's the Teckla's turn.  I also don't think we've ever 
heard of a Teckla Heir, which leads me to believe there isn't one, which 
makes the transfer of the Orb from Consul to Consul easier.

><snip>... tyrannical slaughter that was the French Revolution.  However, 
>these governments can be fleeting; <snip>... due to political infighting 
>caused by conflicting claims on the orb, or a joint-ownership or 
>oligarchical government, etc...

Again, I disagree.  The Gods would not allow the Empire to fall into such 
chaos.  Remember, the primary purpose of the Empire (in the eyes of the 
Gods) is to keep order so that people will be ready to fight the Jenoine at 
a moment's notice.  Baronial squabbles are acceptable and give people a 
chance to hone their skills.  Wholesale anarchy or the slaughter of the 
noble classes are a different matter.  If social order started to 
break-down, it would be a clear indication that the Cycle had turned, and 
most Teckla would turn against their rabble-rousing, former leaders because 
they would want an immediate return to security and stability.

--Mark 




From howard at brazee.net  Wed Sep 29 04:58:07 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 05:58:07 -0600
Subject: Updated pronunciation guide
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0409282052500.1532857-100000@shell01-g>
Message-ID: <000601c4a61b$96530ed0$b07ba8c0@Dad133>

Mark A Mandel wrote:

> By the way, I wouldn't say that "two weeks' notice" is notice that
> lasts two weeks. It is notice that informs of a (particular) event
> that will occur in two weeks. Similar is "10 minutes' warning", not
> to be confused grammatically with "a 10-minute warning" (where the
> modifying phrase has been hyphenated into an adjective, losing all
> number in the process, like "a 10-foot pole").

Good point.   Her correction to "Two Weeks Warning" is to add an apostrophe.
Mine is to drop the s.




From howard at brazee.net  Wed Sep 29 05:01:03 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 06:01:03 -0600
Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20040928231634.019e6578@pop.west.cox.net>
Message-ID: <000701c4a61b$ff179580$b07ba8c0@Dad133>

Mark Englehart wrote:

> And as I recall in Jhereg Vlad informs us that the longest a House
> can hold the throne at a time is 17 to the 17th power.    That puts
> it way outside the lifetime of a single emperor.  

Depending on what unit of time he was referring to, I don't remember.





From lazarus33pjf at cox.net  Wed Sep 29 05:39:26 2004
From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 05:39:26 -0700
Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <000701c4a61b$ff179580$b07ba8c0@Dad133>
References: <6.1.2.0.0.20040928231634.019e6578@pop.west.cox.net> <000701c4a61b$ff179580$b07ba8c0@Dad133>
Message-ID: <j6bll05u6bcri4494pll68rl6v92iqvmq5@4ax.com>

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 06:01:03 -0600, you wrote:

>Mark Englehart wrote:
>
>> And as I recall in Jhereg Vlad informs us that the longest a House
>> can hold the throne at a time is 17 to the 17th power.    That puts
>> it way outside the lifetime of a single emperor.  
>
>Depending on what unit of time he was referring to, I don't remember.
>
>

It's a big freaking number. 

827,240,261,886,336,764,177

I don't remember, how many days in a year on Dragaera?

It's got to be either days, hours, or minutes.  Or even seconds?


From casey at the-bat.net  Wed Sep 29 06:40:13 2004
From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:40:13 -0400
Subject: Powers of 17
In-Reply-To: <j6bll05u6bcri4494pll68rl6v92iqvmq5@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.6.1157398849.1952.dragaera@dragaera.info>

lazarus wrote:
>
>On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 06:01:03 -0600, you wrote:
>
>>Mark Englehart wrote:
>>
>>> And as I recall in Jhereg Vlad informs us that the longest a House
>>> can hold the throne at a time is 17 to the 17th power.    That puts
>>> it way outside the lifetime of a single emperor.  

I'm certain you've misremembered that.  The limits were 17*17=289 or 17^2
and 17*17*17=4,913 or 17^3.  

>>Depending on what unit of time he was referring to, I don't remember.
>>
>>
>
>It's a big freaking number. 
>
>827,240,261,886,336,764,177

Indeed.  Not even Sethra (who's been around since the dawn of the empire)
has lived that long.

Minium reigns 289 years * 17 reigns per cycle * 17 cycles (one great cycle)
since the founding of the empire = 83,521 years (17^4)
Maximum reigns (note that these would be very long for one Drageran) 4913 *
17 * 17 = 1,419,857 (17^5).  All the reporting we've had from Vlad and
Paarfi is that Sethra is a couple hundred thousand years old.  This would
indicate that the average reign is much closer to the minimum than the
maximum.  

>I don't remember, how many days in a year on Dragaera?

289.  See Mark Mandel's site http://cracksandshards.com/time.html#calendar
for more discussion.

>It's got to be either days, hours, or minutes.  Or even seconds?

Days per reign is 17^4 to 17^5, There 30 hours in a day, 60 minutes in an
hour, 60 seconds in a minute or a bit more than 17^4 seconds to the year.
Thus even seconds per great cycle (less than 17^9) fail to reach anything
close to 17 to the 17th power.

Casey



From jhereg69 at earthlink.net  Wed Sep 29 06:55:34 2004
From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:55:34 -0400
Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <j6bll05u6bcri4494pll68rl6v92iqvmq5@4ax.com>
References: <6.1.2.0.0.20040928231634.019e6578@pop.west.cox.net> <000701c4a61b$ff179580$b07ba8c0@Dad133> <j6bll05u6bcri4494pll68rl6v92iqvmq5@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <415ABED6.4090500@earthlink.net>

lazarus wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 06:01:03 -0600, you wrote:
> 
>>Mark Englehart wrote:
>>
>>>And as I recall in Jhereg Vlad informs us that the longest a House
>>>can hold the throne at a time is 17 to the 17th power.    That puts
>>>it way outside the lifetime of a single emperor.  
>>
>>Depending on what unit of time he was referring to, I don't remember.
> 
> It's a big freaking number. 
> 
> 827,240,261,886,336,764,177
> 
> I don't remember, how many days in a year on Dragaera?
> 
> It's got to be either days, hours, or minutes.  Or even seconds?

If I remember correctly, the numbers Vlad gives are 17*17 (289) for the 
minimum (in years) and 17*17*17 (4913) for the maximum, again in years. 
My take on what happens on when the Emperor/Empress dies before the 
Cycle turns is that the orb goes to the next in line of the current 
ruling house. If we believe Vlad, then the Cycle takes a minimum of 289 
years to turn. If an Emperor/Empress dies within this minimum (say, 
after only 50 years) or dies at some point past this minimum, but the 
Cycle hasn't turned (say, after 500 years), I believe that the orb goes 
to the next person in line within the current ruling house. Also, even 
if there were a period of insurrection during which the orb is not 
circling over anybody's head, sorcery should still work; what caused 
sorcery not to work during the Interregnum was not the lack of a ruler, 
but rather the fact that the orb was in the Paths of the Dead, and it is 
the orb that channels the Great Sea of Amorphia, not the Emperor/Empress 
(that would be exhausting).

While we're on the subject, I've had a pararectal notion that the house 
of the Phoenix doesn't get to rule twice in a row (at the beginning and 
then at the end of the Cycle), just for being at the top and at the 
bottom of the poem describing the Cycle. Since we know in hindsight that 
the Cycle had not in fact turned, I think that Adron's spell would have 
failed to take control of the orb; as it was, it succeeded in confusing 
it. I think its natural inclination once Tortaalik was dead would have 
been to head for Loudin/Vernoi. Adron was betting the cycle had turned, 
and thus would be able to grab the orb, but even Paarfi describes the 
orb as not willing to go to Adron (by way of his proxy, Aliera). I think 
the way the Great Cycle of the Dragon makes itself known (since this is 
the first time all Houses have held the orb 17 time each) is by the 
period of turmoil that follows the decadent Phoenix giving way to the 
Reborn Phoenix, but this all happens within the same reign. If we could 
see the Wheel of Destiny (uh, I mean, the Cycle), I don't think we'd see 
two Phoenix depictions. If all this pararectal ideation holds up, it 
provides some slim evidence of the multiple rulers per reign I discuss 
above.

Going back to the Teckla reign (or republic), I would think that the 
mystical nature of the Cycle can more or less predict who the electee is 
going to be; once the Teckla President (or whatever they call him) is 
elected, and goes into office, the Cycle has turned. Although I guess if 
there's always French Revolution-style violence on the way to the 
republic, then the Orca reign ends with the gruesome beheading (or 
Starring? That would be kinda evil...) of the Orca ruler. I wonder what 
the sign that the Cycle has turned might be when there is a peaceful 
transition between Orca and Teckla...

Jose
-- 
Jose Marquez            \  Cthulhu 2004
jhereg69 at hackwater.com   \  Why vote for
http://www.hackwater.com  \  the lesser evil?



From howard at brazee.net  Wed Sep 29 07:27:31 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:27:31 -0600
Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <415ABED6.4090500@earthlink.net>
References: <6.1.2.0.0.20040928231634.019e6578@pop.west.cox.net> <000701c4a61b$ff179580$b07ba8c0@Dad133> <j6bll05u6bcri4494pll68rl6v92iqvmq5@4ax.com> <415ABED6.4090500@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <opse3ef5gymng2fm@emerald.he.net>

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:55:34 -0400, Jose Marquez <jhereg69 at earthlink.net>  
wrote:

> I wonder what the sign that the Cycle has turned might be when there is  
> a peaceful transition between Orca and Teckla...
>
> Jose

Are there peaceful transitions between houses?   Have there been times  
when a ruler in a house dies and instead of his in-house heir taking  
power, power has been transformed smoothly and without rancor?

It's easy to imagine that all houses have fought (even if just  
politically) to keep control just a while longer.

-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/


From scott at cjhunter.com  Wed Sep 29 07:54:14 2004
From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 07:54:14 -0700
Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <opse3ef5gymng2fm@emerald.he.net>
Message-ID: <30e701c4a634$38e99980$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>

> Are there peaceful transitions between houses?   

Depending on what you mean by peaceful, we've heard about abdications under
pressure. I want to say that Kiera, in Orca, tells Vlad about an emperor who
abdicates when faced with the sort of financial crisis that is the
centerpiece of that story but I may well be mis-remembering. (The
disadvantage of reading the list at work; no access to texts.)





From howard at brazee.net  Wed Sep 29 08:37:36 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:37:36 -0600
Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <30e701c4a634$38e99980$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
References: <30e701c4a634$38e99980$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <opse3hoyg1mng2fm@emerald.he.net>

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 07:54:14 -0700, Scott Schultz <scott at cjhunter.com>  
wrote:

>> Are there peaceful transitions between houses?
>
> Depending on what you mean by peaceful, we've heard about abdications  
> under
> pressure. I want to say that Kiera, in Orca, tells Vlad about an emperor  
> who
> abdicates when faced with the sort of financial crisis that is the
> centerpiece of that story but I may well be mis-remembering. (The
> disadvantage of reading the list at work; no access to texts.)

That could work between houses.   It also could work within a dynasty.   I  
don't remember whether there was a dynastic change here.



-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/


From zarkon at illrepute.org  Wed Sep 29 08:51:57 2004
From: zarkon at illrepute.org (John Klein)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:51:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <opse3ef5gymng2fm@emerald.he.net>
References: <6.1.2.0.0.20040928231634.019e6578@pop.west.cox.net> <000701c4a61b$ff179580$b07ba8c0@Dad133> <j6bll05u6bcri4494pll68rl6v92iqvmq5@4ax.com> <415ABED6.4090500@earthlink.net> <opse3ef5gymng2fm@emerald.he.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0409291148150.29201@ueno.bdi.com>

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004, Howard Brazee wrote:

@> > I wonder what the sign that the Cycle has turned might be when there is
@> > a peaceful transition between Orca and Teckla...
@>
@> Are there peaceful transitions between houses?   Have there been times
@> when a ruler in a house dies and instead of his in-house heir taking
@> power, power has been transformed smoothly and without rancor?
@>
@> It's easy to imagine that all houses have fought (even if just
@> politically) to keep control just a while longer.

According to Paarfi (in an area and about a subject where Paarfi can be
trusted to be speaking as accurate as he ever does), the present-day
Phoenix to Dragon handoff occurred peacefully and smoothly. (Whether it
resulted from Zerika's death is unknown, but see,s unlikely.)

As for historical ones, they're somewhat less likely to become a topic of
conversation. (The power was handed over peacefully and then nothing much
happened for the next four thousand years. And then the good part with
violence started!)


From lazarus33pjf at cox.net  Wed Sep 29 09:16:07 2004
From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:16:07 -0700
Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <opse3ef5gymng2fm@emerald.he.net>
References: <6.1.2.0.0.20040928231634.019e6578@pop.west.cox.net> <000701c4a61b$ff179580$b07ba8c0@Dad133> <j6bll05u6bcri4494pll68rl6v92iqvmq5@4ax.com> <415ABED6.4090500@earthlink.net> <opse3ef5gymng2fm@emerald.he.net>
Message-ID: <1tnll0pdd74famn0qkb352nnorj46ccdld@4ax.com>

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:27:31 -0600, you wrote:

>On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:55:34 -0400, Jose Marquez <jhereg69 at earthlink.net>  
>wrote:
>
>> I wonder what the sign that the Cycle has turned might be when there is  
>> a peaceful transition between Orca and Teckla...
>>
>> Jose
>
>Are there peaceful transitions between houses?   Have there been times  
>when a ruler in a house dies and instead of his in-house heir taking  
>power, power has been transformed smoothly and without rancor?
>
>It's easy to imagine that all houses have fought (even if just  
>politically) to keep control just a while longer.

IIRC, we have hints that Zerika II steps down and hands over the Orb
to Norathar.


From mneme at io.com  Wed Sep 29 10:10:09 2004
From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:10:09 -0500
Subject: Idle Speculation - The Tekla Republic
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0409282121140.1532857-100000@shell01-g>
References: <16729.56627.523532.207464@fnord.io.com>	<Pine.SGI.4.40.0409282121140.1532857-100000@shell01-g>
Message-ID: <16730.60529.900155.955696@fnord.io.com>

Mark A Mandel writes:
>On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Joshua Kronengold wrote:
>#Check your spellcheck on "emperor", btw.
>Heh. Check yours on "Teckla".

It's a rule, you know.

(which you broke via brevity).


-- 
       Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org))  |\      _,,,--,,_  ,)
--^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick    /,`.-'`'   -,  ;-;;'  
  /\\  your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle     |,4-  ) )-,_ ) /\     
/-\\\  your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax            '---''(_/--' (_/-'     


From mneme at io.com  Wed Sep 29 10:15:39 2004
From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:15:39 -0500
Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20040928231634.019e6578@pop.west.cox.net>
References: <BAY17-F39kB4ltFlmml00001968@hotmail.com>	<6.1.2.0.0.20040928231634.019e6578@pop.west.cox.net>
Message-ID: <16730.60859.596220.612170@fnord.io.com>

Mark Englehart writes:
>I have to disagree.  In Teckla, Verra tells Vlad that the books the 
>revolutionaries were working from came from Earth and were not appropriate 
>for Dragaera, at least not yet.  That means that communism and socialism at 
>least have not been seen in a Teckla Republic. 

Er...no, it means it isn't time for a Teckla Republic yet.
Not the right part of the cycle.  What else would it mean?

>noble classes are a different matter.  If social order started to 
>break-down, it would be a clear indication that the Cycle had turned, and 
>most Teckla would turn against their rabble-rousing, former leaders because 
>they would want an immediate return to security and stability.

Yes. This is likely what normally causes the Cycle to change to the
Jhegaala rule.



-- 
       Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org))  |\      _,,,--,,_  ,)
--^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick    /,`.-'`'   -,  ;-;;'  
  /\\  your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle     |,4-  ) )-,_ ) /\     
/-\\\  your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax            '---''(_/--' (_/-'     


From scott at cjhunter.com  Wed Sep 29 10:26:51 2004
From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:26:51 -0700
Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <16730.60859.596220.612170@fnord.io.com>
Message-ID: <32db01c4a649$8b7cc590$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>


> Mark Englehart writes:
> >I have to disagree.  In Teckla, Verra tells Vlad that the books the
> >revolutionaries were working from came from Earth and were 
> not appropriate 
> >for Dragaera, at least not yet.  That means that communism 
> and socialism at 
> >least have not been seen in a Teckla Republic. 
>

To which Joshua Kronengold replies 
> Er...no, it means it isn't time for a Teckla Republic yet.
> Not the right part of the cycle.  What else would it mean?
> 
 
I agree with Mark on this one. My impression from Verra was not "this is the
wrong era for this" , it was "this literature is inappropriate to this world
and culture because things don't work that way here".





From howard at brazee.net  Wed Sep 29 10:27:53 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:27:53 -0600
Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <1tnll0pdd74famn0qkb352nnorj46ccdld@4ax.com>
References: <6.1.2.0.0.20040928231634.019e6578@pop.west.cox.net> <000701c4a61b$ff179580$b07ba8c0@Dad133> <j6bll05u6bcri4494pll68rl6v92iqvmq5@4ax.com> <415ABED6.4090500@earthlink.net> <opse3ef5gymng2fm@emerald.he.net> <1tnll0pdd74famn0qkb352nnorj46ccdld@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <opse3msrj2mng2fm@emerald.he.net>

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:16:07 -0700, lazarus <lazarus33pjf at cox.net> wrote:

>> It's easy to imagine that all houses have fought (even if just
>> politically) to keep control just a while longer.
>
> IIRC, we have hints that Zerika II steps down and hands over the Orb
> to Norathar.

That would be one way to keep your heirs from squabbling.   Instead of a  
succession, it is a Succession - a matter for the gods.



-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/


From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 29 10:49:02 2004
From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:49:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Idle Speculation - The Tekla Republic
In-Reply-To: <16729.54113.775128.729423@fnord.io.com>
Message-ID: <20040929174902.4786.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Joshua Kronengold <mneme at io.com> wrote:

> Scott Schultz writes:
> >I'm wondering what sort of government it is that they create.

I've wondered about that too.

> > Is it a
> >republic like our own, or is it more of a constitutional monarchy? Does
> it
> >have a parliament? How often are elections held? How long does the
> ruler
> >hold power? Does a Tekla Republic actually last past the tenure of the
> >initially elected leader?

Are there elections at all?

> It seems pretty obvious.  
> The Tekla Republic begins in bloody revolution.  It takes power with
> high ideals, but the desire for revolution on the new government's
> "betters" gets the better of the leaders, and they begin massacring
> those nobles they can find and blame (the nobles, knowing which way
> the grass is blowing, hide).  Then it gets worse, the various Tekla
> demagogues eventually turning on one another, each seeking the Orb,
> but doing great violence to the empire as they do so. Eventually,
> things proceed to the point where it's obvious that the Repubulic
> cannot be saved, and the Jhegalla heir manages to gather the scattered
> reins of rulership and bring an end to the remains of the republic
> (and become Emperor).

That's one plausible answer, but there are others.  One is that
there is a Teckla heir who gets the Orb--maybe "First Citizen" or
"President" instead of "Emperor"--but he or she is often a figurehead.
Another is that the Teckla have a "shadow" structure during the
previous reign (the Speakers we've seen might be the lowest layer)
that smoothly takes power when the previous emperor dies, so there's
no need to wait for the election or selection of a ruler.  An idea
that might be combined with the latter is that some sort of ruling
council, not an individual, might wield the Orb.  (For a minute
I thought we had textev against that, but what I was remembering
was Gandalf telling Saruman that only one can wield the Ring.)

Another is some kind of palace revolution--keeping in mind that during
the reign immediately before theirs, the Teckla have nearly their
maximum influence.  (We've seen them only during their period of
minimum influence.)  Thus a Teckla Republic could be something like
Mussolini's Italy or Ataturk's Turkey.

Someone's (Mark Englehart's) suggestion of the Roman Republic
is worth considering.  Also, Dragaera's "present" stage seems to
correspond to Europe in maybe the 15th to 18th centuries--the
feudal lords are losing power to the commercial classes, but
we're not ready for Marxism yet.  In addition to the French
Revolution, we might want to look for parallels in the republics
of Switzerland and Venice.  I think Venice especially shows
that "republic" doesn't entail voting or individual civil rights.
Wikipedia says, "The Republic was under the titular sovereignty
of the Doge, a nobleman elected to the post for life. However,
the doge had little real power, and actual authority was exercised
by the Great Council, an extremely limited body in which only
members of the great aristocratic families of the republic were
allowed to participate."
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_Republic>  A Teckla
Republic might not have "great aristocratic families", but it
might have wealthy or powerful Teckla, plus members of the noble
houses ditto.

Somebody who knows more history than me (not hard) might want
to amplify this.

> >What happens when the previous (Athyra?) house's ruler dies in
> >office?
> 
> Presumably, the Athyra heir takes over.
> You didn't think that only one Emperor could rule per reign, did you?
> What would happen if an emperor was killed before the minimum term?

As Jose has now reminded us, the previous house is Orca.

Anyway, as Zerika tells Vlad in _Phoenix_, the Orb protects the life
of the Emperor, and that's what the whole Mario-whatserface thing in
FHYA was about.  It's conceivable that the Orb even prevents the
Emperor from dying of natural causes until the minimum term is up--
or that it doesn't.

Jerry Friedman

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 29 11:00:51 2004
From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:00:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <32db01c4a649$8b7cc590$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <20040929180051.48685.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Scott Schultz <scott at cjhunter.com> wrote:

> 
> > Mark Englehart writes:
> > >I have to disagree.  In Teckla, Verra tells Vlad that the books the
> > >revolutionaries were working from came from Earth and were 
> > not appropriate 
> > >for Dragaera, at least not yet.  That means that communism 
> > and socialism at 
> > >least have not been seen in a Teckla Republic. 
> >
> 
> To which Joshua Kronengold replies 
> > Er...no, it means it isn't time for a Teckla Republic yet.
> > Not the right part of the cycle.  What else would it mean?
> > 
>  
> I agree with Mark on this one. My impression from Verra was not "this is
> the
> wrong era for this" , it was "this literature is inappropriate to this
> world
> and culture because things don't work that way here".

I almost agree with you and Mark.  My impression was, "Marx and
Engels have proved that feudalism leads through a dialectic
process to capitalism, eventually industrial capitalism, which in
turn leads to a socialist revolution and the dictatorship of the
proletariat.  Dragaera is still too feudal and not capitalistic or
industrial enough to be ready for socialism." Here I'm attempting
a Marxist point of view, which I assume is Steven's but isn't mine.

Jerry Friedman


		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM  Wed Sep 29 11:24:38 2004
From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:24:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS) 
Message-ID: <200409291824.i8TIOcRM013453@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com>

Jerry Friedman wrote:
> I almost agree with you and Mark.  My impression was, "Marx and
> Engels have proved that feudalism leads through a dialectic
> process to capitalism, eventually industrial capitalism, which in
> turn leads to a socialist revolution and the dictatorship of the
> proletariat.  Dragaera is still too feudal and not capitalistic or
> industrial enough to be ready for socialism." Here I'm attempting
> a Marxist point of view, which I assume is Steven's but isn't mine.

I always thought what Verra was trying to say was:
In a world dominated and controlled by the Great Cycle,
this great big stone tablet that even we Gods don't
fully understand, the ideas of Marx and Engels simply won't work.
How can you have a socialist revolution when, once the next
Cycle comes around, it moves right back to feudalism?
Not only that, but the mass of "Noble Houses" have
sorcery and Elder Sorcery, and this throws the
calculations off even further.  A bummer for Kelly's Gang,
but them's the facts.

The only way to really bring about the future Kelly desires
is to destroy the Great Cycle.

Hmm... Maybe that's the Last Contract?  Kelly hires Vlad
to assassinate the Great Cycle!  Another All-Expenses Paid
trip to the Land of the Dead, with chisel and hammer in
hand....

Okay, maybe not. <grin>

:)
Chris

"He is a lover of his country who rebukes and does
not excuse its sins." - Frederick Douglass




From scott at cjhunter.com  Wed Sep 29 11:26:49 2004
From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:26:49 -0700
Subject: Idle Speculation - The Tekla Republic
In-Reply-To: <20040929174902.4786.qmail@web50706.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <332301c4a651$ec01a8b0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>


> I 
> think Venice especially shows that "republic" doesn't entail 
> voting or individual civil rights. Wikipedia says, "The 
> Republic was under the titular sovereignty of the Doge, a 
> nobleman elected to the post for life. However, the doge had 
> little real power, and actual authority was exercised by the 
> Great Council, an extremely limited body in which only 
> members of the great aristocratic families of the republic 
> were allowed to participate." 

That's very possible. A Tekla Republic implies that the leader is chosen by
the people in some fashion but it doesn't neccesarily follow that the
government at large is representative of the people. Even under normal
circumstances, Zerika and Sethra have both emphasized the fact that the
Emperor is both powerful and powerless at the same time. Real power resides
in the beauracracy. Sure, you've got a Tekla President or something like
him, but do you really want Fred the Farmer acting as a Warlord or would you
feel more comfortable with a Dragon in that role? Should Sally the hedge
wizard be made Court Wizard or would that more appropriately be handed to a
trained noble, preferably an Athyra? It may well be that when the dust of
revolution has settled that the Imperial Beuracracy doesn't look all that
different than it did beforehand. It just turns into a senate or a
parliament or house of lords or something for a couple of millenia.

I'm reminded of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
"So", said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't
the people get rid of the lizards?"
"It honestly doesn't occur to them", said Ford. "They've all got the vote,
so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or
less approximates to the government they want."
"You mean they actually vote for the lizards?"
"Oh yes", said Ford with a shrug, "of course".
"But", said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"
"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard
might get in." - Douglas Adams, So long, and thanks for all the fish,
chapter 36, 1984

It may be that the outward form of the government during a Tekla reign is
all that really changes.





From howard at brazee.net  Wed Sep 29 11:35:23 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:35:23 -0600
Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS) 
In-Reply-To: <200409291824.i8TIOcRM013453@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com>
References: <200409291824.i8TIOcRM013453@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com>
Message-ID: <opse3pw9p1mng2fm@emerald.he.net>

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:24:38 -0700 (PDT), Chris Olson - SunPS  
<Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM> wrote:

> I always thought what Verra was trying to say was:
> In a world dominated and controlled by the Great Cycle,
> this great big stone tablet that even we Gods don't
> fully understand, the ideas of Marx and Engels simply won't work.
> How can you have a socialist revolution when, once the next
> Cycle comes around, it moves right back to feudalism?
> Not only that, but the mass of "Noble Houses" have
> sorcery and Elder Sorcery, and this throws the
> calculations off even further.  A bummer for Kelly's Gang,
> but them's the facts.

We know that things *have* changed over time.  Technology (including  
sorcery) has changed.    Assuming that a house's brand of feudalism  
remains the same from cycle to cycle seems presumptuous.   Thinking Orca  
instead of Dragon can make this evolution easier to perceive.   But even  
the warrior classes find it useful to have a productive underclass - which  
may or may not be feudal.


From log0n5150 at hotmail.com  Wed Sep 29 11:48:49 2004
From: log0n5150 at hotmail.com (jeff G.)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:48:49 +0000
Subject: Idle Speculation - The Tekla Republic
Message-ID: <BAY23-F27gNVWa60yGu0000b081@hotmail.com>






 > I
 > think Venice especially shows that "republic" doesn't entail
 > voting or individual civil rights. Wikipedia says, "The
 > Republic was under the titular sovereignty of the Doge, a
 > nobleman elected to the post for life. However, the doge had
 > little real power, and actual authority was exercised by the
 > Great Council, an extremely limited body in which only
 > members of the great aristocratic families of the republic
 > were allowed to participate."

That's very possible. A Tekla Republic implies that the leader is chosen by
the people in some fashion but it doesn't neccesarily follow that the
government at large is representative of the people. Even under normal
circumstances, Zerika and Sethra have both emphasized the fact that the
Emperor is both powerful and powerless at the same time. Real power resides
in the beauracracy. Sure, you've got a Tekla President or something like
him, but do you really want Fred the Farmer acting as a Warlord or would you
feel more comfortable with a Dragon in that role? Should Sally the hedge
wizard be made Court Wizard or would that more appropriately be handed to a
trained noble, preferably an Athyra? It may well be that when the dust of
revolution has settled that the Imperial Beuracracy doesn't look all that
different than it did beforehand. It just turns into a senate or a
parliament or house of lords or something for a couple of millenia.

I'm reminded of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
"So", said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't
the people get rid of the lizards?"
"It honestly doesn't occur to them", said Ford. "They've all got the vote,
so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or
less approximates to the government they want."
"You mean they actually vote for the lizards?"
"Oh yes", said Ford with a shrug, "of course".
"But", said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"
"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard
might get in." - Douglas Adams, So long, and thanks for all the fish,
chapter 36, 1984

It may be that the outward form of the government during a Tekla reign is
all that really changes.

*********************************************

This is probably the most acute observation yet. During the change of the 
cycle the only positions that alter would be the most obvious ones, 
(Emperor, Warlord, maybe the Prime Minister) with most being political 
favors, or to gain leverage in the Empire for the current reigning House. 
But with all the House having a built in inclination for particular 
positions (Dragons as Warlord, Athyra as Judges, Lyorn Recordkeepers, Yendi 
Prime Ministers, to name the most obvious), the people that run the empire 
on a day to day basis would remain in their positions for some time, 
irregardless of the Cycle.

Jeff

_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to 
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement



From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM  Wed Sep 29 12:00:16 2004
From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:00:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS)  
Message-ID: <200409291900.i8TJ0GRM016874@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com>

Howard Brazee wrote:
> We know that things *have* changed over time.  Technology (including  
> sorcery) has changed.    Assuming that a house's brand of feudalism  
> remains the same from cycle to cycle seems presumptuous.   Thinking Orca  
> instead of Dragon can make this evolution easier to perceive.   But even  
> the warrior classes find it useful to have a productive underclass - which  
> may or may not be feudal.

They've changed in many ways, but to move from feudalism
to socialism, I feel, isn't possible without the consent
of the Cycle, if not the Noble Houses themselves.  And
can you see Dragons, Dzur, Athyra, or Phoenix allowing their
aristocracy to be pushed aside in favor of a total Teckla
revolt, destroying the Cycle itself?  I don't think so.  The
Houses allow the Teckla to have their little Republic every
Cycle because they know it'll last, at most, 17^3 years before
the Cycle pushes them aside for the next House in line.  The
brand of feudalism may change, but it's still feudalism.
What Kelly wanted was the destruction of the Cycle, and Verra
seemed to think it wasn't possible on this planet, and certainly
not in Kelly's lifetime.

Yes, things change, but much stays the same.  Sorcery can grow
more powerful, bows and arrows can be invented, warfare can change,
but the Cycle still moves on.  It's been what, 200,000 years and
the Cycle is still going strong?  (Well, there was that little
Interregnum thing, but...:)

If I was unclear, I apologize.  Change happens, sure (um, it *is*
the only constant, is it not?), but Verra's comment about Kelly's
aims and the documents he unearthed indicated (from what I recall.
I'm a few miles away from my Dragaera books:) that Socialism, as
a Dragaeran political system encompassing the whole of the Empire,
wasn't possible as long as the Cycle was around.  This is, of course,
my interpretation of Verra's speech, but everyone hears something
different when the Demon Goddess speaks....:)

ChrisO
"If you can't live without me, die already."
	~Cynthia Heimel



From jerry_friedman at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 29 12:02:32 2004
From: jerry_friedman at yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:02:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS) 
In-Reply-To: <200409291824.i8TIOcRM013453@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com>
Message-ID: <20040929190232.24025.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Chris Olson - SunPS <Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM> wrote:

> Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > I almost agree with you and Mark.  My impression was, "Marx and
> > Engels have proved that feudalism leads through a dialectic
> > process to capitalism, eventually industrial capitalism, which in
> > turn leads to a socialist revolution and the dictatorship of the
> > proletariat.  Dragaera is still too feudal and not capitalistic or
> > industrial enough to be ready for socialism." Here I'm attempting
> > a Marxist point of view, which I assume is Steven's but isn't mine.
> 
> I always thought what Verra was trying to say was:
> In a world dominated and controlled by the Great Cycle,
> this great big stone tablet that even we Gods don't
> fully understand, the ideas of Marx and Engels simply won't work.
> How can you have a socialist revolution when, once the next
> Cycle comes around, it moves right back to feudalism?
> Not only that, but the mass of "Noble Houses" have
> sorcery and Elder Sorcery, and this throws the
> calculations off even further.  A bummer for Kelly's Gang,
> but them's the facts.

Anyone have the text, since _Phoenix_ isn't on book search?  I thought
Verra made a time reference--Dragaera isn't ready *yet*.

> The only way to really bring about the future Kelly desires
> is to destroy the Great Cycle.

Other ways:

* A slight modification so the next Teckla Reign can be indefinitely
long, not just 17^4 years.

* A new, indefinitely long Interregnum.

* As happened in Europe, the monarchy becomes constitutional--with a
more socialist constitution than any in Europe.  (The Orb makes
such a monarchy harder, but not, I think, impossible.)

> Hmm... Maybe that's the Last Contract?  Kelly hires Vlad
> to assassinate the Great Cycle!  Another All-Expenses Paid
> trip to the Land of the Dead, with chisel and hammer in
> hand....
> 
> Okay, maybe not. <grin>

I've taken that idea seriously since somewhere around _Phoenix_
(probably on one of my re-reads).  The main objection, of course,
is that from things Paarfi says, Norathar's reign lasts well beyond
Vlad's expected lifetime.  Ways around that:

* Norathar is a constitutional monarch.

* Norathar is not reigning at all, and Paarfi is being stubbornly
conservative and refusing to recognize that he's living in a
Marxist state.

* Vlad travels through time, like Devera, to a point after Paarfi.

* Vlad lives longer than expected, like Laszlo or whatsername (Arra?).

* Son of Vlad.

The following is a spoiler for _Issola_:
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Killing the gods, with Godslayer, might be a very good start on
destroying the Cycle.  And who knows whether G. might be just the
hammer and chisel you need?

Jerry Friedman

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Wed Sep 29 12:08:08 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:08:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Idle Speculation - The Teckla Republic
In-Reply-To: <BAY23-F27gNVWa60yGu0000b081@hotmail.com>
References: <BAY23-F27gNVWa60yGu0000b081@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0409291202570.22201@rdpc11.slac.stanford.edu>



On Wed, 29 Sep 2004, jeff G. wrote:

> But with all the House having a built in inclination for particular
> positions (Dragons as Warlord, Athyra as Judges, Lyorn Recordkeepers, Yendi
> Prime Ministers, to name the most obvious), the people that run the empire
> on a day to day basis would remain in their positions for some time,
> [solecism snipped]


The Teckla include genes (and surely traits) from the noble houses and
are in my view likely to be able to find appropriate replacements.
I would imagine that in any transition there will be many holdovers,
esp. in (relatively) abrupt transitions - but my guess is that there
would be more and faster changes going from a noble autocracy
to a popular republic.


From Gaertk at aol.com  Wed Sep 29 12:13:25 2004
From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:13:25 -0400
Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS)
Message-ID: <0D1E5D06.3046DCAF.00048EA6@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/29/2004 10:27:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "Howard Brazee" <howard at brazee.net> writes:

> Are there peaceful transitions between houses?   Have there 
> been times when a ruler in a house dies and instead of his 
> in-house heir taking power, power has been transformed 
> smoothly and without rancor?

Cherova III peacefully handed the Orb to Tortaalik, and there 
was a comment in _Sethra Lavode_ about the Porker Poker Society 
meeting again once Zerika was no longer Empress.


--KG



From mneme at io.com  Wed Sep 29 12:16:00 2004
From: mneme at io.com (Joshua Kronengold)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:16:00 -0500
Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS) 
In-Reply-To: <20040929190232.24025.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <200409291824.i8TIOcRM013453@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com>	<20040929190232.24025.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <16731.2544.625912.902533@fnord.io.com>

Jerry Friedman writes:
>Anyone have the text, since _Phoenix_ isn't on book search?  I thought
>Verra made a time reference--Dragaera isn't ready *yet*.

This is my memory as well.

>> The only way to really bring about the future Kelly desires
>> is to destroy the Great Cycle.

No.
Note, to support my point, that the Orca are, basically, the merchant
middle class...the obvious predicessor to a Teckla communist
revolution.

When did Verra indicate that a communist revolution would last
indefinately?  Ours didn't...


-- 
       Joshua Kronengold (mneme@(io.com, labcats.org))  |\      _,,,--,,_  ,)
--^-- "Get your mind right and you can make a stick    /,`.-'`'   -,  ;-;;'  
  /\\  your wand and the sky your hat and a puddle     |,4-  ) )-,_ ) /\     
/-\\\  your magic..." -- Granny Weatherwax            '---''(_/--' (_/-'     


From shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com  Wed Sep 29 12:26:15 2004
From: shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com (S SHafer)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:26:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS)  
In-Reply-To: <200409291900.i8TJ0GRM016874@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com>
Message-ID: <20040929192615.79910.qmail@web53410.mail.yahoo.com>

They've changed in many ways, but to move from
feudalism to socialism, I feel, isn't possible without
the consent of the Cycle, if not the Noble Houses
themselves. And can you see Dragons, Dzur, Athyra, or
Phoenix allowing their aristocracy to be pushed aside
in favor of a total Teckla revolt, destroying the
Cycle itself? I don't think so. The
Houses allow the Teckla to have their little Republic
every Cycle because they know it'll last, at most,
17^3 years before the Cycle pushes them aside for the
next House in line. The brand of feudalism may change,
but it's still feudalism.

What Kelly wanted was the destruction of the Cycle... 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Kelly an Easterner
and not a Teckla.  The revolt in Adril..., involving
Vlad's wife (also an Easterner, no?), was not a move
towards the Teckla Republic, but a move by Easterners
who, being outside the cycle, want a bigger role in
governing the empire.  Kelly and his followers would
not even be involved in the Teckla Republic and
Verra's comments about Kelly's ideas do not really apply.

=====
"she had a walk that would make a bishop kick in a stain glass window" - Raymond Chandler





From howard at brazee.net  Wed Sep 29 12:35:53 2004
From: howard at brazee.net (Howard Brazee)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:35:53 -0600
Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS)  
In-Reply-To: <200409291900.i8TJ0GRM016874@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com>
References: <200409291900.i8TJ0GRM016874@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com>
Message-ID: <opse3sp3eumng2fm@emerald.he.net>

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:00:16 -0700 (PDT), Chris Olson - SunPS  
<Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM> wrote:


> They've changed in many ways, but to move from feudalism
> to socialism, I feel, isn't possible without the consent
> of the Cycle, if not the Noble Houses themselves.  And
> can you see Dragons, Dzur, Athyra, or Phoenix allowing their
> aristocracy to be pushed aside in favor of a total Teckla
> revolt, destroying the Cycle itself?  I don't think so.

Except that in real life, socialism and communism don't have to get rid of  
the elite.   Certainly they don't eliminate power structures and the  
powerful.   Sometimes they change who are powerful - but that's the nature  
of all revolutions.

The cycle isn't dependent upon particular noble houses and dynasties.  If  
one cycle has a emperor/doge, and 17 cycles later a descendant is comrade  
for life, life goes on.    The real difference is which government gets  
the most production from its underclasses.   In general, when societies  
find ways to get more wealth from the underclasses, they do so.    If  
factory-working voters are more productive than slaves - then the elite  
have more power ruling over factory-working voters.

Here's an exercise.    For various houses that we have a decent  
understanding of, compare and contrast the lifestyles of the rulers if  
they rule ignorant serfs, trained factory workers, and educated  
professionals.   It is interesting that the Dragon we know best seems to  
work well with educated professionals.   Certainly the more devious races  
would not have too much problem getting the proletariat to do what they  
want.

Feudalism isn't an end to itself - it works well to counter central  
power.   Owning serfs isn't an end to itself - it works well to get some  
minimal wealth with minimal threats.   But wealth is power, and power is  
more important to most rulers than security.

-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/


From lazarus33pjf at cox.net  Wed Sep 29 12:48:02 2004
From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:48:02 -0700
Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS) 
In-Reply-To: <20040929190232.24025.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <200409291824.i8TIOcRM013453@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> <20040929190232.24025.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2a4ml0hj49st8s0nhovjn0jgufhgskm7nq@4ax.com>

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:02:32 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>--- Chris Olson - SunPS <Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM> wrote:
>
>> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> > I almost agree with you and Mark.  My impression was, "Marx and
>> > Engels have proved that feudalism leads through a dialectic
>> > process to capitalism, eventually industrial capitalism, which in
>> > turn leads to a socialist revolution and the dictatorship of the
>> > proletariat.  Dragaera is still too feudal and not capitalistic or
>> > industrial enough to be ready for socialism." Here I'm attempting
>> > a Marxist point of view, which I assume is Steven's but isn't mine.
>> 
>> I always thought what Verra was trying to say was:
>> In a world dominated and controlled by the Great Cycle,
>> this great big stone tablet that even we Gods don't
>> fully understand, the ideas of Marx and Engels simply won't work.
>> How can you have a socialist revolution when, once the next
>> Cycle comes around, it moves right back to feudalism?
>> Not only that, but the mass of "Noble Houses" have
>> sorcery and Elder Sorcery, and this throws the
>> calculations off even further.  A bummer for Kelly's Gang,
>> but them's the facts.
>
>Anyone have the text, since _Phoenix_ isn't on book search?  I thought
>Verra made a time reference--Dragaera isn't ready *yet*.
>

Found it.  Phoenix paperback, pp 117-118:

Verra speaking:  "Kelly has his hands on the truth about the way a
society works, about where the poweris, and the cause of the injustice
he sees.  but it is truth for another time and another place.  he has
built an organization around these ideas, and because of their truth,
his organization prospers.  But the truth he has based his policies
on, the fuel for this fire he is building, has no such strength in the
Empire.  perhaps in ten thousand years, or a hundred thousand, but not
now.  And by proceeding as he has, he is setting up his people to be
massacred.  Do you understand?  He is building a world of ideas with
no foundation beneath them.  When they collapse..."




From brian.vanskyock at zimmer.com  Wed Sep 29 12:48:30 2004
From: brian.vanskyock at zimmer.com (Brian Vanskyock)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:48:30 -0500
Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <20040929190232.24025.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20040929144830267.00000002100@Z7581>

I seem to remember a time reference, also.


-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Friedman [mailto:jerry_friedman at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 2:03 PM
To: dragaera at dragaera.info
Subject: RE: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS)

--- Chris Olson - SunPS <Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM> wrote:

> Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > I almost agree with you and Mark.  My impression was, "Marx and
> > Engels have proved that feudalism leads through a dialectic
> > process to capitalism, eventually industrial capitalism, which in
> > turn leads to a socialist revolution and the dictatorship of the
> > proletariat.  Dragaera is still too feudal and not capitalistic or
> > industrial enough to be ready for socialism." Here I'm attempting
> > a Marxist point of view, which I assume is Steven's but isn't mine.
> 
> I always thought what Verra was trying to say was:
> In a world dominated and controlled by the Great Cycle,
> this great big stone tablet that even we Gods don't
> fully understand, the ideas of Marx and Engels simply won't work.
> How can you have a socialist revolution when, once the next
> Cycle comes around, it moves right back to feudalism?
> Not only that, but the mass of "Noble Houses" have
> sorcery and Elder Sorcery, and this throws the
> calculations off even further.  A bummer for Kelly's Gang,
> but them's the facts.

Anyone have the text, since _Phoenix_ isn't on book search?  I thought
Verra made a time reference--Dragaera isn't ready *yet*.

> The only way to really bring about the future Kelly desires
> is to destroy the Great Cycle.





From jhereg69 at earthlink.net  Wed Sep 29 07:52:56 2004
From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:52:56 -0400
Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <opse3ef5gymng2fm@emerald.he.net>
References: <6.1.2.0.0.20040928231634.019e6578@pop.west.cox.net> <000701c4a61b$ff179580$b07ba8c0@Dad133> <j6bll05u6bcri4494pll68rl6v92iqvmq5@4ax.com> <415ABED6.4090500@earthlink.net> <opse3ef5gymng2fm@emerald.he.net>
Message-ID: <415ACC48.3050607@earthlink.net>

Howard Brazee wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:55:34 -0400, Jose Marquez 
> <jhereg69 at earthlink.net>  wrote:
> 
>> I wonder what the sign that the Cycle has turned might be when there 
>> is  a peaceful transition between Orca and Teckla...
>>
>> Jose
> 
> 
> Are there peaceful transitions between houses?   Have there been times  
> when a ruler in a house dies and instead of his in-house heir taking  
> power, power has been transformed smoothly and without rancor?
> 
> It's easy to imagine that all houses have fought (even if just  
> politically) to keep control just a while longer.

I would bet the flat stones that power is transferred smoothly and 
without rancor from Zerika to Norathar, based on Zerika's conversation 
with Vlad in Phoenix (she is trying to figure out if it is time for her 
to step aside and let Norathar ascend, among other things occupying her 
mind at the time). Also, while it is inspired by violence, the Athyra 
Empress Cherova steps down in favor of Tortaalik because of the 
significance of Kathana e'Marish'Chala beheading Uttrik's father, and 
this transfer of power appears to occur smoothly and without rancor. I 
would think certain Houses would be good at stepping down gracefully, 
rather than with bloodshed. The Lyorn come to mind, as do the Issola.

Jose
-- 
Jose Marquez            \  Cthulhu 2004
jhereg69 at hackwater.com   \  Why vote for
http://www.hackwater.com  \  the lesser evil?



From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Wed Sep 29 13:09:55 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:09:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS) 
In-Reply-To: <2a4ml0hj49st8s0nhovjn0jgufhgskm7nq@4ax.com>
References: <200409291824.i8TIOcRM013453@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com> <20040929190232.24025.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <2a4ml0hj49st8s0nhovjn0jgufhgskm7nq@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0409291258160.22586@rdpc11.slac.stanford.edu>



On Wed, 29 Sep 2004, lazarus wrote:

> [Verra says,] "... the truth he has based his policies on, the fuel for
> this fire he is building, has no such strength in the Empire.  Perhaps
> in ten thousand years, or a hundred thousand, but not now.  And by
> proceeding as he has, he is setting up his people to be massacred..."

A feature of the Empire's power structure and society that I think is
important here is the willingness to kill as many people as necessary
to maintain the status quo.  I would expect any serious revolt by the
slums of Adrilankha to result in the use of battle magic in an urban
setting.  Consider Russia and Groszny, for example.  Kelly would in my
view require a society imbued with the ideals of the American revolution
and one in which death was not such a constant presence as we see it to
be for nobles in the Paarfiad and Vladiad.


From Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM  Wed Sep 29 14:09:51 2004
From: Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM (Chris Olson - SunPS)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:09:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS) 
Message-ID: <200409292109.i8TL9pRM028364@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com>

lazarus wrote:
> Found it.  Phoenix paperback, pp 117-118:

Thank you!  I had, in fact, forgotten the time
reference.  Oh, darn, I'm going to have to go
back and read Brust.  I'm all upset. <grin>

I'll eat my comments as regards time. :)

It does bring to mind a question, though:

> "But the truth he has based his policies
> on, the fuel for this fire he is building, has no such strength in the
> Empire.  Perhaps in ten thousand years, or a hundred thousand, but not
> now."

My understanding is that the Empire is governed, ultimately, by the
Cycle (at least to the Dragaerans, I can't remember how the
Lords of Judgment view the subject).  If Kelly's truth has
no strength in the Empire, but might sometime in the future, what
might this say about the future of the Empire and the Cycle?
What's she trying to say, here?  And how much of it is what she
means, compared to what Vlad hears?

Hmm...

ChrisO



From Gaertk at aol.com  Wed Sep 29 15:26:59 2004
From: Gaertk at aol.com (Gaertk at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:26:59 -0400
Subject: OT: Re: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS)
Message-ID: <4CDD3F89.3ED30076.00048EA6@aol.com>

Jose Marquez <jhereg69 at earthlink.net> writes:

>Jose Marquez            \  Cthulhu 2004
>jhereg69 at hackwater.com   \  Why vote for
>http://www.hackwater.com  \  the lesser evil?

Thanks for reminding me that I have to dig out my copy of 
Zelazny's _Night in the Lonesome October_.  Is anyone else
planning on reading that book one-chapter-a-day next month?


--KG



From scott at cjhunter.com  Wed Sep 29 15:49:57 2004
From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:49:57 -0700
Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <4CDD3F89.3ED30076.00048EA6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <34da01c4a676$ae6590a0$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>


> 
> Thanks for reminding me that I have to dig out my copy of 
> Zelazny's _Night in the Lonesome October_.  Is anyone else 
> planning on reading that book one-chapter-a-day next month?
> 

Heck, I read that 3-4 times a year. It's one of my favorite Zelazney's. I
like the idea of one a day through October, but I don't have the patience
for it. I'd want it all NOW! :-P





From kknolte at ecity.net  Wed Sep 29 10:35:01 2004
From: kknolte at ecity.net (K Kuhn)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:35:01 +0100
Subject: Idle Speculation - The Tekla Republic
References: <BAY23-F27gNVWa60yGu0000b081@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <415AF244.717D@ecity.net>

jeff G. wrote:
<snip>

> This is probably the most acute observation yet. During the change of the
> cycle the only positions that alter would be the most obvious ones,
> (Emperor, Warlord, maybe the Prime Minister) with most being political
> favors, or to gain leverage in the Empire for the current reigning House.
> But with all the House having a built in inclination for particular
> positions (Dragons as Warlord, Athyra as Judges, Lyorn Recordkeepers, Yendi
> Prime Ministers, to name the most obvious), the people that run the empire
> on a day to day basis would remain in their positions for some time,
> irregardless of the Cycle.

Although the fact that apparently a Dragon Emperor can't name herself as
warlord, even though that's apparently the position all Dragonlords
want, makes me wonder about how much leeway the Emperor actually has in
appointing positions.  Perhaps it's more like each House has its own
area of interest, and the Emperor can only select a candidate from the
slate the House offers him?  If nothing else, if each House tends to
fill up the lesser ranks of their favorite interest bureaucracy as well
as the top ones, anyone who doesn't have the approval of the House is in
for a rough time, no matter their titular authority, and presumably
firing everyone wholesale and replacing with your own loyalists would
result in a bureaucracy that didn't know what they were doing and cause
even more problems.

Karen





From FRIEDA2133 at aol.com  Wed Sep 29 21:24:41 2004
From: FRIEDA2133 at aol.com (FRIEDA2133 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 00:24:41 EDT
Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS)
Message-ID: <83.1721ae52.2e8ce489@aol.com>

Gaertk.aol.com wrote Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:13:25 -0400 

>Cherova III peacefully handed the Orb to Tortaalik, and there 
>was a comment in _Sethra Lavode_ about the Porker Poker Society 
>meeting again once Zerika was no longer Empress.

Hopefully, you have already read Sethra Lavode.

I thought maybe I had missed a hint that Piro might still be
alive when Vlad was alive.  No hint.  No meeting of the Society of the
Porker Poker actually took place.   Just rumors and intentions.  

Sethra Lavode, hardback, Conclusion, page 339:

"Roaana and Ibronka were officially accepted into the Society of the
Porker Poker; though the Society never did actually meet as such
during the remainder of Zerika's Reign.  Zerika claimed it would
begin meeting once more when she stepped down from the 
throne.  There are rumors that it still gathers once every decade;
whether this is true we cannot say."

Has anyone figured out a House for Grassfog and his sister
Tsira?  

Could they have been Easterners?  Sethra Lavode, Chapter
79 a body will be burned to speed it to the next life.  No talk
on that page about should we bring the body to Deathgate.
Others were brought to Deathgate and we learn their Houses
on page 336  Sethra Lavode,  Epilogue.  Just wondering because
of that ch ain and  am ulet.

Bye.

Linda G.
 

From lazarus33pjf at cox.net  Wed Sep 29 21:46:00 2004
From: lazarus33pjf at cox.net (lazarus)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:46:00 -0700
Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS) 
In-Reply-To: <200409292109.i8TL9pRM028364@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com>
References: <200409292109.i8TL9pRM028364@hanwk14-mail1.ebay.sun.com>
Message-ID: <sq3nl0d2j36te6limtgojeics6e8ihmde4@4ax.com>

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:09:51 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>lazarus wrote:
>> Found it.  Phoenix paperback, pp 117-118:
>
>Thank you!  I had, in fact, forgotten the time
>reference.  Oh, darn, I'm going to have to go
>back and read Brust.  I'm all upset. <grin>
>
>I'll eat my comments as regards time. :)
>
>It does bring to mind a question, though:
>
>> "But the truth he has based his policies
>> on, the fuel for this fire he is building, has no such strength in the
>> Empire.  Perhaps in ten thousand years, or a hundred thousand, but not
>> now."
>
>My understanding is that the Empire is governed, ultimately, by the
>Cycle (at least to the Dragaerans, I can't remember how the
>Lords of Judgment view the subject).  If Kelly's truth has
>no strength in the Empire, but might sometime in the future, what
>might this say about the future of the Empire and the Cycle?
>What's she trying to say, here?  And how much of it is what she
>means, compared to what Vlad hears?
>
>Hmm...
>
>ChrisO

What's the length of the cycle again?  Possibly Kelly's policies would
work when the Teckla are ascendant?


From jhereg69 at earthlink.net  Thu Sep 30 07:36:03 2004
From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:36:03 -0400
Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <20040929190232.24025.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040929190232.24025.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <415C19D3.4000004@earthlink.net>

Jerry Friedman wrote:
> --- Chris Olson - SunPS <Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM> wrote:
> 
>>Hmm... Maybe that's the Last Contract?  Kelly hires Vlad
>>to assassinate the Great Cycle!  Another All-Expenses Paid
>>trip to the Land of the Dead, with chisel and hammer in
>>hand....
>>
>>Okay, maybe not. <grin>
> 
> I've taken that idea seriously since somewhere around _Phoenix_
> (probably on one of my re-reads).  The main objection, of course,
> is that from things Paarfi says, Norathar's reign lasts well beyond
> Vlad's expected lifetime.  Ways around that:

I would say that another huge objection is that Vlad hates Kelly, and 
while he would be tempted to take Verra and the other Lords of Judgment 
to task (using his new toy) for various reasons, I don't think that he 
would really do it unless he had a better reason than Kelly wanting him 
to. Especially after knowing that Kelly's ideas won't work in the 
current Empire. Maybe Vlad can manage to live long enough to see those 
ideas be viable, but not Kelly and his supporters.

Jose
-- 
Jose Marquez            \  Cthulhu 2004
jhereg69 at hackwater.com   \  Why vote for
http://www.hackwater.com  \  the lesser evil?



From paulw at videoideas.com  Thu Sep 30 09:41:13 2004
From: paulw at videoideas.com (paul)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 12:41:13 -0400
Subject: Magic versus technology
Message-ID: <003201c4a70c$52c058c0$6a01a8c0@Paul>

I found myself wondering why the world of Dragaera has not developed some of
the simple technologies we have. Guns for example. Especially considering
how long each Dragearan has to develop various talents and knowledge.
Something about their slower development could explain some of this, but
surely, after a few thousand years, someone has figured out a fantastic use
for gun powder that allows the common Teckla an equal footing with a bad ass
Dragon wielding only a sword. Being an alternate universe (if that is even
the case), physics don't allow the same technology? I realize the reason for
this incongruity might simply be that the author is human, and didn't think
about it, or care...but finding a "logical" explanation allows me to carry
things out to new conclusions.



For instance, say that the use of magic so completely covers the things we
non-magic users would need technology for, that there has been no need for
Dragaera inhabitants to cultivate it. Teleportation covers automobiles;
psionic communication is the telephone, etc. In a far far distant future,
might we find a Dragaera that is reversed? Sci-fi cities of floating cars
and space travel, with jhereg circling overhead. Magic is diminished now,
perhaps the seas of chaos are not so accessible.



It just occurred to me that maybe the Jenoine, or the gods have something to
do with it. Anyway, thought it was an interesting mind game. If this has
been done to death already, my apologies. Stay cool, all.




From jhereg69 at earthlink.net  Thu Sep 30 10:09:48 2004
From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:09:48 -0400
Subject: Magic versus technology
In-Reply-To: <003201c4a70c$52c058c0$6a01a8c0@Paul>
References: <003201c4a70c$52c058c0$6a01a8c0@Paul>
Message-ID: <415C3DDC.9000809@earthlink.net>

paul wrote:
> I found myself wondering why the world of Dragaera has not developed some of
> the simple technologies we have. Guns for example. Especially considering
> how long each Dragearan has to develop various talents and knowledge.
> Something about their slower development could explain some of this, but
> surely, after a few thousand years, someone has figured out a fantastic use
> for gun powder that allows the common Teckla an equal footing with a bad ass
> Dragon wielding only a sword. Being an alternate universe (if that is even
> the case), physics don't allow the same technology? I realize the reason for
> this incongruity might simply be that the author is human, and didn't think
> about it, or care...but finding a "logical" explanation allows me to carry
> things out to new conclusions.
> 
> For instance, say that the use of magic so completely covers the things we
> non-magic users would need technology for, that there has been no need for
> Dragaera inhabitants to cultivate it. Teleportation covers automobiles;
> psionic communication is the telephone, etc. In a far far distant future,
> might we find a Dragaera that is reversed? Sci-fi cities of floating cars
> and space travel, with jhereg circling overhead. Magic is diminished now,
> perhaps the seas of chaos are not so accessible.
> 
> It just occurred to me that maybe the Jenoine, or the gods have something to
> do with it. Anyway, thought it was an interesting mind game. If this has
> been done to death already, my apologies. Stay cool, all.

Well, part of the reason that, say, guns haven't been introduced is a 
meta one: Steve writes what he thinks is cool. People fighting with 
swords and sorcery is cooler than shooting each other. Another part of 
the reason you address yourself: sorcery can effectively cover for 
technology in the Dragaeran context. Thus, instead of guns, we have 
flashstones, or energy blasts, or even more subtle ways of killing a 
person (or even a group of people) using sorcery. There are also 
mystical reasons: technology that would give Teckla equal footing with 
Dragons would essentially either work in or around a Teckla 
reign/republic or once the Cycle has been broken in a way that nullifies 
the mystical (Cyclical) forces that more or less determine a House's 
ascendancy.

Most of this is pararectal, though, so feel free to fill in the leaps 
and gaps in logic/facts that I may have created. I know we've mentioned 
technology before, but I'm feeling lazy and don't want to research the 
exact reason Steve gave regarding the guns/technology issue.

Jose
-- 
Jose Marquez            \  Cthulhu 2004
jhereg69 at hackwater.com   \  Why vote for
http://www.hackwater.com  \  the lesser evil?



From scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us  Thu Sep 30 10:23:08 2004
From: scs at lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:23:08 -0400
Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <415C19D3.4000004@earthlink.net>
References: <20040929190232.24025.qmail@web50703.mail.yahoo.com> <415C19D3.4000004@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20040930172308.GA10901@lokkur.dexter.mi.us>

Chris Olson - SunPS <Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM> wrote:

> Hmm... Maybe that's the Last Contract?  Kelly hires Vlad
> to assassinate the Great Cycle!. . .

Not a bad idea.  Here's mine, spun off of yours.

How about the Gods find out there's a traitor among them, helping the
Jenoine to come in - but the only way to truely close the door is to
end the cycle.  And doing that requires unanimity among the Gods, so
Vlad is hired to take out the dissenter.  Neatly bring Dragaera as we
know it to an end, and makes a nice exit note for Vlad.
-- 
   "...too many people want things to be simple when they are not and
cannot be.  Encouraging that desire is seductive and rewarding, but also
dangerous."      Iain M. Banks, 'Against a Dark Background', pp 299


From casey at the-bat.net  Thu Sep 30 10:34:11 2004
From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:34:11 -0400
Subject: Magic versus technology
In-Reply-To: <415C3DDC.9000809@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <mailman.7.1157398850.1952.dragaera@dragaera.info>

Jose Marquez wrote:
> paul wrote:
> > I found myself wondering why the world of Dragaera has not developed
some of
> > the simple technologies we have. Guns for example. Especially
considering
> > how long each Dragearan has to develop various talents and knowledge.
> > Something about their slower development could explain some of this, but
> > surely, after a few thousand years, someone has figured out a fantastic
use
> > for gun powder that allows the common Teckla an equal footing with a bad
ass
> > Dragon wielding only a sword. Being an alternate universe (if that is
even
[snip]
> Well, part of the reason that, say, guns haven't been introduced is a 
> meta one: Steve writes what he thinks is cool. People fighting with 

Not to mention that Sorcery allows for the most effective defense against
gunpowder to be applied very precisely from afar.

Water.  Gunpowder don't fire too well when it's wet.
Fire.  It's very dangerous to store large quantities of Gunpowder anywhere
that there might be sparks.

Casey





From Bato001 at aol.com  Thu Sep 30 10:44:24 2004
From: Bato001 at aol.com (Bato001 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:44:24 EDT
Subject: Magic versus technology
Message-ID: <e3.28a76ff.2e8d9ff8@aol.com>

In a message dated 09/30/2004 1:35:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
casey at the-bat.net writes:
after a few thousand years, someone has figured out a fantastic
use
> > for gun powder that allows the common Teckla an equal footing with a bad
ass
> > Dragon wielding only a sword. 
It would be very disconcerting as Teckla to have a Dragon sorcerer ignite the 
gunpowder in every bullet in your magazine from 200 yards away. They have 
technology- ie flash stones. Sorcery just sets up an environment where technology 
is unecessary. Necessity is the mother of invention. Why bother with an 
internal combustion engine, when you can teleport?

John D. Barbato, OD

From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov  Thu Sep 30 11:09:44 2004
From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:09:44 -0400
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person
In-Reply-To: <16720.25098.777159.922232@fnord.io.com>
References: <12a.4c13432c.2e80e22d@aol.com> <16720.25098.777159.922232@fnord.io.com>
Message-ID: <415C4BE8.50000@email.ers.usda.gov>

Joshua Kronengold wrote:

>FRIEDA2133 at aol.com writes:
>  
>
>>Joshua, I am wondering ("Some Reflect, Others Wonder"  The 
>>Phoenix Guards Chapter 18.) what ways you think the Vlad books 
>>imitate the style of a previous work?
>>    
>>
>
>Google for Taltos and Chandler.  Unlike the Guards books, they do not,
>to my knowledge, use specific scenes, story elements, and themes from
>a previous work, but they are very much a pastiche of Chandler
>language-wise.
>
>  
>
Not Chandler, Zelazny.  But that gets less and less strong as the series 
unrolls.  The French
killed off the notion of influence studies in literary criticism decades 
ago, but I would find
Brust's opinion of Zelazny interesting, just for the sake of assuaging 
curiosity.

Snarkhunter


From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov  Thu Sep 30 11:12:53 2004
From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:12:53 -0400
Subject: Updated pronunciation guide
In-Reply-To: <m2vfdydvty.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>
References: <1d2.2c6bdefd.2e8a3d3c@aol.com> <m2vfdydvty.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>
Message-ID: <415C4CA5.3000501@email.ers.usda.gov>

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

>FRIEDA2133 at aol.com writes:
>  
>
>>I was also thinking about how the Pronunciation Guide is under
>>the heading Articles (Some articles on Dragaeran life, culture, and art.)
>>and what might be another possible article.
>>
>>
>>7.  Cooking(some with a warning not to try this recipe)
>>
>>    
>>
Indeed.  My local grocery store seems to be perpetually out of kethna, 
fresh, frozen, canned or otherwise (-:

Snarkhunter


From davids at Kithrup.COM  Thu Sep 30 11:27:36 2004
From: davids at Kithrup.COM (David Silberstein)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 11:27:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person
In-Reply-To: <415C4BE8.50000@email.ers.usda.gov>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040930111850.23410A-100000@kithrup.com>

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004, Ken Koester wrote:


>Not Chandler, Zelazny.  But that gets less and less strong as the
>series unrolls.

Hm.  Is it not possible that Zelazny was influenced by Chandler as
well (and Brust is influenced by both)?


>The French killed off the notion of influence studies in literary
>criticism decades ago,

How?  Why?

>I would find Brust's opinion of Zelazny interesting, just for the
>sake of assuaging curiosity. 
>

You're new here, I nearly think (not a criticism, merely an
observation).

  http://dreamcafe.com/weblog.cgi


]  Thu Jul 17th, 2003 10:29 PM
]
] I've been asked to do an introduction to a collection of short
] stories by Roger Zelazny.  I'm more than a little flattered and
] honored.  But I have no bloody clue what to say.  No one wants to
] read three thousand words of, "But. like, he's really good!"


]  Tue Nov 13th, 2001 4:47 PM

] Maybe it's the prospect of seeing Neil again, but for some
] reason I've been missing Roger Zelazny a lot these last few
] weeks.  I really want to sit down and talk to him about
] writing, and about Stuff. 

] Neil and I, along with Walter Jon Williams, have been called
] Roger's bastard children, literarily, and it's a title I
] wear with pride.  I wonder what would happen if the three of us
] tried to write a book together?  Given how differently we
] approach things, it would almost certainly be a catastrophe, and
] not very much fun either.  Kind of cool to think about,
] though.  The big problem is that I write in 6/8 time, whereas
] Neil, like Roger, often writes in 2/4, and Walterjon writes in
] complex East African polyrhythms--when we got done, *no* one
] could dance to it.


And like that.



From casey at the-bat.net  Thu Sep 30 11:31:39 2004
From: casey at the-bat.net (Casey Rousseau)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:31:39 -0400
Subject: Updated pronunciation guide
In-Reply-To: <415C4CA5.3000501@email.ers.usda.gov>
Message-ID: <mailman.8.1157398850.1952.dragaera@dragaera.info>

Ken Koester wrote:
> Indeed.  My local grocery store seems to be perpetually out of kethna, 
> fresh, frozen, canned or otherwise (-:

Oh?  Is it a Kosher grocery store?



From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov  Thu Sep 30 11:33:25 2004
From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:33:25 -0400
Subject: Magic versus technology
In-Reply-To: <e3.28a76ff.2e8d9ff8@aol.com>
References: <e3.28a76ff.2e8d9ff8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <415C5175.6020208@email.ers.usda.gov>

Bato001 at aol.com wrote:

>In a message dated 09/30/2004 1:35:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
>casey at the-bat.net writes:
>after a few thousand years, someone has figured out a fantastic
>use
>  
>
>>>for gun powder that allows the common Teckla an equal footing with a bad
>>>      
>>>
>ass
>  
>
>>>Dragon wielding only a sword. 
>>>      
>>>
>It would be very disconcerting as Teckla to have a Dragon sorcerer ignite the 
>gunpowder in every bullet in your magazine from 200 yards away. They have 
>technology- ie flash stones. Sorcery just sets up an environment where technology 
>is unecessary. Necessity is the mother of invention. Why bother with an 
>internal combustion engine, when you can teleport?
>
>
>  
>
If it were simply Teckla against Dragon, yes.  But sorcerors could 
surely shield gunpowder against sorcerous
intervention otherwise.  Having howitzers with a 15 mile range could be 
useful to a Dragon army, no?  Still,
someone else would probably invent a sorcerous shield against overhead 
projectiles as soon as such things
became possible.  As for an IC engine, you would bother with it for bulk 
transport of goods.  But maybe
the need isn't there yet. . . and we've already seen one castle full of 
soldiers moving across the fields through
non-Technologikal Artes (-;

I'd have to agree, overall.  Technology could probably help Dragaerans, 
but there just hasn't been enough
need for anyone to think along those lines and do all the preliminary 
work leading up to it.  For now, things are
more Cool without it (-:

Snarkhunter


From scott at cjhunter.com  Thu Sep 30 11:39:13 2004
From: scott at cjhunter.com (Scott Schultz)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 11:39:13 -0700
Subject: Magic versus technology
In-Reply-To: <e3.28a76ff.2e8d9ff8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3ec901c4a71c$d15b4900$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>

> Why bother with an internal combustion engine, when you can teleport?
> 

Y'know, aside from Vlad's trick in the Paths of the Dead, I can't recall an
instance where someone teleported an inanimate object to Vlad or vice-versa.
Are there any such instances?

The internal combustion engine example might as well apply to cart and
horse. Why move a heavy load in a cart when you can just teleport it, unless
you can't move an inanimate object without it having a "connection" to a
living being who is traveling along with it?

I have the impression that teleportation is a moderately difficult skill.
Anyone with the talent and desire could probably learn it but many who lack
one or both of those traits simply get around the old-fashioned way or
depend on professional sorcerers to act as taxis.

Given that Tekla make up the bulk of the population and that most are only
slightly educated and thus unable to teleport themselves, you'd think that
you'd have a ready audience waiting for a technological labor-saving
solution to the transportation (or any other) problem.

Of course, this may simply say that the only people who have the leisure to
invent something like an internal combustion engine are the middle-upper
class that have no need of it and so don't waste engergy on it. So, in a
round about way, the original argument stands. *heh*




From jhereg69 at earthlink.net  Thu Sep 30 11:43:55 2004
From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:43:55 -0400
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040930111850.23410A-100000@kithrup.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040930111850.23410A-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <415C53EB.6080000@earthlink.net>

David Silberstein wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Sep 2004, Ken Koester wrote:
> 
>>The French killed off the notion of influence studies in literary
>>criticism decades ago,
> 
> How?  Why?

Well, the French heard that influence studies had gone to the Empire, 
possibly to reveal that not all great works were influenced by French 
works, so they hired a Jhereg assassin to take care of it. 
Unrevivifiable, of course. Luckily, since it wasn't Morganti, influence 
studies was able to live on in reincarnated form in this list, rasfw and 
other similar arenas.

Jose
-- 
Jose Marquez            \  Cthulhu 2004
jhereg69 at hackwater.com   \  Why vote for
http://www.hackwater.com  \  the lesser evil?



From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov  Thu Sep 30 11:45:12 2004
From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:45:12 -0400
Subject: Okay, new topic - Brust in person
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040930111850.23410A-100000@kithrup.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.1040930111850.23410A-100000@kithrup.com>
Message-ID: <415C5438.1000702@email.ers.usda.gov>

David Silberstein wrote:

>On Thu, 30 Sep 2004, Ken Koester wrote:
>  
>
>>Not Chandler, Zelazny.  But that gets less and less strong as the
>>series unrolls.
>>    
>>
>
>Hm.  Is it not possible that Zelazny was influenced by Chandler as
>well (and Brust is influenced by both)?
>
>
>  
>
There are some problems with looking at that; see below.

>>The French killed off the notion of influence studies in literary
>>criticism decades ago,
>>    
>>
>
>How?  Why?
>
>  
>
Well, the short answer is that it's nearly impossible to show, and even 
if you do, it tends not
to tell you anything interesting about the text from a critical 
standpoint.  After a few generations of critics
bashed it around for a while, they decided the game wasn't worth the 
candle & turned to
other notions.  I haven't kept up with criticism since I left complit in 
grad school, but I haven't
seen anything to tell me that influence studies have made a comeback 
here in the US or abroad.

>>I would find Brust's opinion of Zelazny interesting, just for the
>>sake of assuaging curiosity. 
>>
>>    
>>
>
>You're new here, I nearly think (not a criticism, merely an
>observation).
>
> 
>  
>
More lazy than new--I remembered reading those snippets just as I 
re-read them.  Yes,
I t All Fits, I'd have to say (-;

Snarkhunter



From kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov  Thu Sep 30 11:46:45 2004
From: kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov (Ken Koester)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:46:45 -0400
Subject: Updated pronunciation guide
In-Reply-To: <WAN18sG06vdGg1fDc5D00000b28@wan18.ers.usda.gov>
References: <WAN18sG06vdGg1fDc5D00000b28@wan18.ers.usda.gov>
Message-ID: <415C5495.8080402@email.ers.usda.gov>

Casey Rousseau wrote:

>Ken Koester wrote:
>  
>
>>Indeed.  My local grocery store seems to be perpetually out of kethna, 
>>fresh, frozen, canned or otherwise (-:
>>    
>>
>
>Oh?  Is it a Kosher grocery store?
>
>
>  
>
Actually, it is a Giant.  Makes one wonder. . . .

Snarkhunter


From jhereg69 at earthlink.net  Thu Sep 30 11:51:51 2004
From: jhereg69 at earthlink.net (Jose Marquez)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:51:51 -0400
Subject: Magic versus technology
In-Reply-To: <3ec901c4a71c$d15b4900$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
References: <3ec901c4a71c$d15b4900$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <415C55C7.6010206@earthlink.net>

Scott Schultz wrote:
>>Why bother with an internal combustion engine, when you can teleport?
>>
> 
> 
> Y'know, aside from Vlad's trick in the Paths of the Dead, I can't recall an
> instance where someone teleported an inanimate object to Vlad or vice-versa.
> Are there any such instances?

Off the top of my head, in the same book (Taltos), Vlad wonders if 
Morrolan is creating their food out of thin air, or teleporting it in, 
which suggests that the latter is possible. And in Jhereg, Kragar 
teleports a Morganti dagger to Vlad by tracing down their psychic 
(psionic?) link.

Jose
-- 
Jose Marquez            \  Cthulhu 2004
jhereg69 at hackwater.com   \  Why vote for
http://www.hackwater.com  \  the lesser evil?



From philiph at slac.stanford.edu  Thu Sep 30 11:49:43 2004
From: philiph at slac.stanford.edu (Philip Hart)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 11:49:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Magic versus technology
In-Reply-To: <3ec901c4a71c$d15b4900$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
References: <3ec901c4a71c$d15b4900$3125ae3f@Magnumnew>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0409301142110.26236@rdpc11.slac.stanford.edu>



On Thu, 30 Sep 2004, Scott Schultz wrote:

> [...]

> Given that Tekla make up the bulk of the population and that most are only
> slightly educated and thus unable to teleport themselves, you'd think that
> you'd have a ready audience waiting for a technological labor-saving
> solution to the transportation (or any other) problem.
>
> Of course, this may simply say that the only people who have the leisure to
> invent something like an internal combustion engine are the middle-upper
> class that have no need of it and so don't waste engergy on it. So, in a
> round about way, the original argument stands. *heh*

A reasonable argument but not applicable during Teckla Republics (or in
the East, or Greenaere).  The _Guns, Germs, and Steel_ view is probably
that a lack of serious competition to the unified Empire (along with the
better-developed sorcery tech) covers the first part - compare China's
slower (integrating over all history) development than the West.  The
East one might claim gets overrun by Dragaeran armies or manipulated by
the Cycle/gods too much.  But the islands should have tech by my lights
(modulo indirect manipulation by the gods a la Phoenix).


From shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com  Thu Sep 30 12:20:02 2004
From: shafedog205555-brustfan at yahoo.com (S SHafer)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 12:20:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Magic versus technology
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0409301142110.26236@rdpc11.slac.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <20040930192002.30116.qmail@web53410.mail.yahoo.com>

> But the islands should have tech by my lights
> (modulo indirect manipulation by the gods a la
> Phoenix).

Technological development also requires some sort of
resource base (educated populace and raw materials). 
England's access to raw materials ala it's colonies
and it's educated populace gave it advantages probably
not possessed by the Islands.

You also have to take into account that technological
advancement throughout our history has been mixing of
populations and ideas.  The Crusades and voyages to
the West/East (basically the expansionist desires of a
mercantile Europe partially constrained by Papal
power) were necessary triggers for Europe's scientific
revolution and subsequent technological boom.  The
world outside the Empire - the somewhat isolated
Islands  as well as the largely untamed Eastern lands
(at least that's how I picture the East after reading
the Viscount series) - does not seem to have enough
contact to effectively share ideas.

As for the need of truly effective mass
transportation, I think that _God Emperor of Dune_
hints as to why SUPPRESSING truly effective means of
mass transportation works to the benefit of the
nobles.  Forcing the lower classes to travel on foot
is a great means of population control.


=====
"she had a walk that would make a bishop kick in a stain glass window" - Raymond Chandler





From dd-b at dd-b.net  Thu Sep 30 15:25:14 2004
From: dd-b at dd-b.net (David Dyer-Bennet)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 17:25:14 -0500
Subject: Updated pronunciation guide
In-Reply-To: <415C4CA5.3000501@email.ers.usda.gov> (Ken Koester's message of
 "Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:12:53 -0400")
References: <1d2.2c6bdefd.2e8a3d3c@aol.com> <m2vfdydvty.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>
	<415C4CA5.3000501@email.ers.usda.gov>
Message-ID: <m28yar8kdx.fsf@gw.dd-b.net>

Ken Koester <kkoester at email.ers.usda.gov> writes:

> David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>
>>FRIEDA2133 at aol.com writes:
>>
>>>I was also thinking about how the Pronunciation Guide is under
>>>the heading Articles (Some articles on Dragaeran life, culture, and art.)
>>>and what might be another possible article.
>>>
>>>
>>>7.  Cooking(some with a warning not to try this recipe)
>>>
>>>
> Indeed.  My local grocery store seems to be perpetually out of kethna,
> fresh, frozen, canned or otherwise (-:

Pork can often be successfully substituted.
-- 
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b at dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>


From dar at horusinc.com  Thu Sep 30 15:47:00 2004
From: dar at horusinc.com (David Rodemaker)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 17:47:00 -0500
Subject: Magic versus technology
In-Reply-To: <003201c4a70c$52c058c0$6a01a8c0@Paul>
Message-ID: <E1CD9hc-00074W-00@pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net>

Paul wrote:
>>I found myself wondering why the world of Dragaera has not developed some
of the simple technologies we have. Guns for example. Especially considering
how long each Dragearan has to develop various talents and knowledge.
Something about their slower development could explain some of this, but
surely, after a few thousand years, someone has figured out a fantastic use
for gun powder that allows the common Teckla an equal footing with a bad ass
Dragon wielding only a sword. Being an alternate universe (if that is even
the case), physics don't allow the same technology? I realize the reason for
this incongruity might simply be that the author is human, and didn't think
about it, or care...but finding a "logical" explanation allows me to carry
things out to new conclusions.<<

I have always figured that simple is good.

So....

With the easy availability of various types of magic - and the resultant
ability to cause a spark at long ranges...

See how easy it is to explain why gunpowder, if it known about, isn't
considered a particularly viable option?

This ignores all the fun questions of where the Tekla would learn about and
then how to use gunpowder, how guns would have evolved, etc.

David




From mam at theworld.com  Thu Sep 30 16:29:56 2004
From: mam at theworld.com (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 19:29:56 -0400
Subject: Updated pronunciation guide
In-Reply-To: <000601c4a61b$96530ed0$b07ba8c0@Dad133>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0409301922330.1685389-100000@shell01-g>

#Mark A Mandel wrote:
#
#> By the way, I wouldn't say that "two weeks' notice" is notice that
#> lasts two weeks. It is notice that informs of a (particular) event
#> that will occur in two weeks. Similar is "10 minutes' warning", not
#> to be confused grammatically with "a 10-minute warning" (where the
#> modifying phrase has been hyphenated into an adjective, losing all
#> number in the process, like "a 10-foot pole").
#
#Good point.   Her correction to "Two Weeks Warning" is to add an apostrophe.
#Mine is to drop the s.

Then it needs an article and probably a hyphen -- are we talking about
"warning" or "notice", or are they the same here?:
 - She quit without even giving us two weeks' notice! (Grammatical and
idiomatic)
 - She quit without even giving us a two-week notice! (Grammatical
though not idiomatic)
 - She quit without even giving us a two week notice! (Grammatical minus
a quibble)
 - She quit without even giving us two week notice! (Ungrammatical)

-- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian,
   Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody
   a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel
[I talk, Dragon NaturallySpeaking types, I correct. Neither of us is
perfect.]





From skzb at dreamcafe.com  Thu Sep 30 13:29:16 2004
From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:29:16 -0700
Subject: Updated pronunciation guide
In-Reply-To: <1096574119.2373.33.camel@localhost>
References: <1096574119.2373.33.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <1096576156.2373.47.camel@localhost>

On Thu, 2004-09-30 at 11:31, Casey Rousseau wrote:
> Ken Koester wrote:
> > Indeed.  My local grocery store seems to be perpetually out of kethna, 
> > fresh, frozen, canned or otherwise (-:
> 
> Oh?  Is it a Kosher grocery store?
> 
> 
Marks a point for Casey.




From skzb at dreamcafe.com  Thu Sep 30 13:16:53 2004
From: skzb at dreamcafe.com (Steve Brust)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:16:53 -0700
Subject: Idle Speculation (SPOILERS)
In-Reply-To: <20040929180051.48685.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040929180051.48685.qmail@web50701.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1096575413.2373.41.camel@localhost>

On Wed, 2004-09-29 at 11:00, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> --- Scott Schultz <scott at cjhunter.com> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > > Mark Englehart writes:
> > > >I have to disagree.  In Teckla, Verra tells Vlad that the books the
> > > >revolutionaries were working from came from Earth and were 
> > > not appropriate 
> > > >for Dragaera, at least not yet.  That means that communism 
> > > and socialism at 
> > > >least have not been seen in a Teckla Republic. 
> > >
> > 
> > To which Joshua Kronengold replies 
> > > Er...no, it means it isn't time for a Teckla Republic yet.
> > > Not the right part of the cycle.  What else would it mean?
> > > 
> >  
> > I agree with Mark on this one. My impression from Verra was not "this is
> > the
> > wrong era for this" , it was "this literature is inappropriate to this
> > world
> > and culture because things don't work that way here".
> 
> I almost agree with you and Mark.  My impression was, "Marx and
> Engels have proved that feudalism leads through a dialectic
> process to capitalism, eventually industrial capitalism, which in
> turn leads to a socialist revolution and the dictatorship of the
> proletariat.  Dragaera is still too feudal and not capitalistic or
> industrial enough to be ready for socialism." Here I'm attempting
> a Marxist point of view, which I assume is Steven's but isn't mine.
> 

For what it's worth, you've captured about 90% of what I was shooting
for.  (The other 10% involves things like magic and the effects of
genetic manipulation; but you have the guts of it.)
-- 
Steven Brust	skzb at dreamcafe.com
"Preacher, don't the bible have some pretty specific things to say about
killing?"  "Quite specific.  It's rather fuzzier, however, on the
subject of kneecaps." -- Firefly



From umbraenoctis at hotmail.com  Thu Sep 30 23:21:14 2004
From: umbraenoctis at hotmail.com (James Griffin)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 23:21:14 -0700
Subject: Magic versus technology
Message-ID: <BAY22-F315ZImwlcvNh00006eb8@hotmail.com>

The point of that was that in the Paths, sorcery was impossible, hence Vlad 
did it (the once in a lifetime transport of a certain object) with 
witchcraft. I believe sorcery can transport *items*, but not perhaps in 
bulk?

James Griffin,
Still Another Vlad faN

>From: Jose Marquez <jhereg69 at earthlink.net>
>To: Dragaera <dragaera at dragaera.info>
>Subject: Re: Magic versus technology
>Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:51:51 -0400
>
>Scott Schultz wrote:
>>>Why bother with an internal combustion engine, when you can teleport?
>>>
>>
>>
>>Y'know, aside from Vlad's trick in the Paths of the Dead, I can't recall 
>>an
>>instance where someone teleported an inanimate object to Vlad or 
>>vice-versa.
>>Are there any such instances?
>
>Off the top of my head, in the same book (Taltos), Vlad wonders if Morrolan 
>is creating their food out of thin air, or teleporting it in, which 
>suggests that the latter is possible. And in Jhereg, Kragar teleports a 
>Morganti dagger to Vlad by tracing down their psychic (psionic?) link.
>
>Jose
>--
>Jose Marquez            \  Cthulhu 2004
>jhereg69 at hackwater.com   \  Why vote for
>http://www.hackwater.com  \  the lesser evil?
>

_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to 
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement