On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:02:32 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >--- Chris Olson - SunPS <Chrisf.Olson at Sun.COM> wrote: > >> Jerry Friedman wrote: >> > I almost agree with you and Mark. My impression was, "Marx and >> > Engels have proved that feudalism leads through a dialectic >> > process to capitalism, eventually industrial capitalism, which in >> > turn leads to a socialist revolution and the dictatorship of the >> > proletariat. Dragaera is still too feudal and not capitalistic or >> > industrial enough to be ready for socialism." Here I'm attempting >> > a Marxist point of view, which I assume is Steven's but isn't mine. >> >> I always thought what Verra was trying to say was: >> In a world dominated and controlled by the Great Cycle, >> this great big stone tablet that even we Gods don't >> fully understand, the ideas of Marx and Engels simply won't work. >> How can you have a socialist revolution when, once the next >> Cycle comes around, it moves right back to feudalism? >> Not only that, but the mass of "Noble Houses" have >> sorcery and Elder Sorcery, and this throws the >> calculations off even further. A bummer for Kelly's Gang, >> but them's the facts. > >Anyone have the text, since _Phoenix_ isn't on book search? I thought >Verra made a time reference--Dragaera isn't ready *yet*. > Found it. Phoenix paperback, pp 117-118: Verra speaking: "Kelly has his hands on the truth about the way a society works, about where the poweris, and the cause of the injustice he sees. but it is truth for another time and another place. he has built an organization around these ideas, and because of their truth, his organization prospers. But the truth he has based his policies on, the fuel for this fire he is building, has no such strength in the Empire. perhaps in ten thousand years, or a hundred thousand, but not now. And by proceeding as he has, he is setting up his people to be massacred. Do you understand? He is building a world of ideas with no foundation beneath them. When they collapse..."